Podcast appearances and mentions of blair enns

Blair differentiates between decoy pricing and price anchoring, which are two different techniques that are often confused for each other, and can increase your average proposal value in multi-option pricing when used appropriately.   Links "Decoy or Anchor?" article by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com "The Perils of 'Good/Better/Best' Pricing" 2Bobs episode

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he gives us methods to cope with our own natural emotional and physiological responses that can be triggered when unforeseen events unfold within sales conversations.   LINKS "Can Improv and Cold Plunges Improve Your Sales?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Blair's interview on the Undisputed Authority podcast with Liam Curley What Doesn't Kill Us by Scott Carney

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he explores how our businesses are not simple machines that can be tuned (or killed) with specific wrenches, but they are complex adaptive organisms that we need to understand differently.   LINKS "Your Business Is Not a Machine" by Blair Enns for winwitoutpitching.com "Innofficiency in Your Agency" 2Bobs episode "Grow or Die?" 2Bobs episode

Are prospects not responding to your follow-up after you submit a proposal? Blair goes through what might be causing their lack of response and then provides three tools to address the ghosting problem.   Links "Ghosted. Now What?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com "The Power of a Metaphor" 2Bobs episode Blair's annual 100 Day Sprint post on LinkedIn

Small shifts. Big wins. This week we pull five practical, no-fluff tips from standout guests across the season - the habits that stick, the models that scale, the posture that sells, and the creative courage that sets brands apart.About the EpisodeA highlights reel of our most actionable moments featuring perspectives from:Dr Jon Finn - habits, brain-state management, AI readiness.John Readman - SaaS mindset and recurring value.Sabrina Chevannes - agency leadership and sustainable growth.Blair Enns - expert-led selling.Nils Leonard - creativity, culture, and brand bravery.This Episode CoversStart smaller than you think - Micro habits beat grand plans. Build simple, daily behaviours that create focus, recharge, and long-term momentum. (Clip: Dr Jon Finn)Think like SaaS, not just services - Solve real problems, validate the value, and productise what works - unlocking recurring revenue and predictable growth. (Clip: John Readman)Slow down to scale well - Growth without process creates chaos. Rebuild the basics: roles, workflow, communication, and the pace of your scaling. (Clip: Sabrina Chevannes)Sell like an expert, not a salesperson - Lead with diagnosis and clarity. Drop the pitch persona and show up as the trusted advisor you already are. (Clip: Blair Enns)Stand for something real - Tools are abundant, originality is scarce. Root your brand in cultural truth and choose courage over convention. (Clip: Nils Leonard)YouTube LinksDr Jon Finn - https://youtu.be/Kctj3Y-iVQE?si=RTEUTAIF9KmYGV0TJohn Readman - https://youtu.be/5Yh7Zmv_EE4?si=1pf50UnkR7U-LdpkSabrina Chevannes - https://youtu.be/nnaLBIOh8-0?si=R_jgBBzRu_sD02NcBlair Enns - https://youtu.be/KXLOJmmUvdo?si=QIY5rnlAl7KtCNWnNils Leonard - https://youtu.be/3vLFLcx9Now?si=C_wQdwIBEID715iuIf you've enjoyed Season 3 so far, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share your favourite moments with us - we'd love to hear from you.

Selling isn't about pressure — it's about positioning, psychology, and trust. In this episode of The Rural Sales Show, St John Craner speaks with Blair Enns, world-renowned sales trainer and author known for helping creative professionals master the art of selling expertise. Together, they unpack what truly drives sales effectiveness — and how mindset, framing, and confidence shape every client conversation. You'll learn: - Why mindset matters more than tactics in high-trust selling - How to sell your expertise instead of discounting your value - Smart strategies for pricing, packaging, and bundling services - The four conversations that define every successful sale - How to handle objections without losing authority or rapport - Why not everyone needs to be a “salesperson” — and what to focus on instead Blair and St John explore how to lead better sales conversations built on clarity, trust, and curiosity — lessons that apply whether you're selling creative services or complex rural solutions.

Blair recognizes growth opportunities in every area of life and business, yet sees many people chasing metrics while unknowingly resisting genuine progress for various reasons.   LINKS "Chief Growth Officer" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

For decades the agency-client relationship has worked on a transactional view of marketing and creative services. Agencies gave away their best thinking upfront, clients judged on surface-level ideas and both sides accepted a process that often undervalued expertise.In this Smarter Marketer Podcast episode, Host James Lawrence and renowned author Blair Enns discuss how the future of creative and professional services lies in changing how we buy, sell and trust expertise. Whether you're in-house or agency-side, these shifts carry big implications for how you choose partners and build lasting relationships that drive marketing success.Key Takeaways:Why traditional pitching often undervalues creative work and what it takes to break free from itHow specialisation is the key to differentiation, growth and global reachWhat three-option proposals and value-based pricing reveal about how expertise should really be soldWhy selling is less about the big presentation and more about a series of meaningful conversationsHow AI is fragmenting the market and empowering smaller, more specialised playersWhat in-house marketers can do to unlock more value from their agency partners.Guest:Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching, a sales training organisation for creative and professional services firms. He is the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, Pricing Creativity and The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise. Blair is also the co-host of the widely followed 2Bobs podcast.Find Us Online:James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/Buy Smarter Marketer:Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm About the Podcast:This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

Blair tells the story of recreation.gov and how its performance pay deal has been nothing but wins for every party involved, with plenty of lessons for buyers and sellers of all kinds of services.   LINKS "Performance Pay Leads to a $500M Website" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Recreation.gov

In this episode of Grow a Small Business, host Troy Trewin interviews Renita Wolf, founder of Poe Wolf Partners, who transitioned from a Fortune 50 CFO career to helping small and mid-sized business owners prepare for successful exits. Renita shares her insights on why nearly 90% of businesses listed for sale never sell, and how she guides owners to align their business with personal goals while increasing value and reducing owner dependency. She discusses the emotional challenges of letting go, the importance of being organized and consistent, and her holistic approach to exit planning. Renita also reveals how she bootstrapped her firm, leveraged mentors, and embraced learning as part of her entrepreneurial journey. This inspiring conversation highlights the critical steps entrepreneurs must take to protect their legacy and maximize success when planning their exit. Why would you wait any longer to start living the lifestyle you signed up for? Balance your health, wealth, relationships and business growth. And focus your time and energy and make the most of this year. Let's get into it by clicking here. Troy delves into our guest's startup journey, their perception of success, industry reconsideration, and the pivotal stress point during business expansion. They discuss the joys of small business growth, vital entrepreneurial habits, and strategies for team building, encompassing wins, blunders, and invaluable advice. And a snapshot of the final five Grow A Small Business Questions: What do you think is the hardest thing in growing a small business? Renita Wolf said the hardest thing in growing a small business is staying confident when you don't know everything and are running everything yourself, often with just a small team. She explained that uncertainty can shake confidence, but she overcomes it by being comfortable learning new things and accepting that she might be bad at them at first, knowing she will improve over time What's your favorite business book that has helped you the most? Renita Wolf shared that her favorite business books are “Key Person of Influence” and “Oversubscribed” by Daniel Priestley, which she always goes back to. She also values the work of Blair Enns, especially his books on Winning Without Pitching, since sales was not her forte and these resources helped her approach clients more effectively. Are there any great podcasts or online learning resources you'd recommend to help grow a small business? Renita Wolf recommended Donald Miller's Business Made Simple and the StoryBrand podcast as excellent resources for small business owners. She explained that they cut through the noise in the marketplace and provide a clear, actionable framework that makes it easier for entrepreneurs to stay focused and grow their businesses. What tool or resource would you recommend to grow a small business? Renita Wolf recommended that every small business owner should have a simple KPI dashboard with around five key metrics. She explained that tracking these helps owners think strategically, measure consistency, and monitor progress—whether it's content strategy, social engagement, or other business drivers—making it a powerful tool for sustainable growth What advice would you give yourself on day one of starting out in business? Renita Wolf's advice to herself on day one of starting her business would be: “Don't wait for perfect — just start.” She emphasized that taking action early is more important than waiting until everything feels ready. Book a 20-minute Growth Chat with Troy Trewin to see if you qualify for our upcoming course. Don't miss out on this opportunity to take your small business to new heights! Enjoyed the podcast? Please leave a review on iTunes or your preferred platform. Your feedback helps more small business owners discover our podcast and embark on their business growth journey.     Quotable quotes from our special Grow A Small Business podcast guest: Being organized and consistent is the foundation of small business success – Renita Wolf Your business is more than financials — it's your legacy for family, community, and employees – Renita Wolf Focus on who you serve, how you help, and what makes you different from the competition – Renita Wolf  

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Dan Lear discuss:The evolution of modern sales philosophy and methodologyRelationship-building and persistence in business developmentThe impact of information access on buyer behavior and expectationsQualifying clients and aligning offerings with real needs Key Takeaways:Hard-selling and product-pushing tactics no longer resonate in today's market, where the more effective approach is to guide prospects through a personalized, trust-based buying process that prioritizes their needs and decision-making journey.To avoid wasting time and energy, sales professionals must rigorously qualify prospects early on by confirming they have a compelling reason to change, a genuine commitment to act, decision-making authority, and the financial means to proceed.In a world where buyers have access to the same data and pricing transparency as sellers, attempts to manipulate or pressure them are counterproductive and often backfire, as credibility and authenticity now matter more than persuasion.Sustainable business development stems not from being aggressively persistent but from cultivating genuine relationships, staying consistently engaged without being overbearing, and building trust through listening, relevance, and patience."If you don't know what you want, be clear about that. And second, even if it's in the short term, put together a plan to help you... move in that direction." —  Dan Lear Unlock the secrets of the industry's top rainmakers with Be That Lawyer: 101 Top Rainmakers' Secrets to Growing a Successful Law Practice. Grab your ultimate guide to building a thriving law firm now on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F78HXJHT Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don't miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ Episode References: To Sell Is Human by Daniel H. Pink: https://www.amazon.com/Sell-Human-Surprising-Moving-Others/dp/1594631905The Win Without Pitching Manifesto by Blair Enns: https://www.amazon.com/Win-Without-Pitching-Manifesto/dp/1605440043About Dan Lear: Dan Lear heads up partnerships at InfoTrack. InfoTrack is a tech-enabled litigation services provider focused on court filing and service of process. Dan has started and run many legal technology ventures and has a passion for marketing, branding, business development, sales, and growth.Connect with Dan Lear:  Website: https://www.infotrack.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danlear/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/infotrack-us/Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

Send us a textBlair Enns joins Lara Schmoisman to unpack what actually works when experts sell their services. From value-based pricing to client alignment, this episode breaks down smart, integrity-driven growth.We'll talk about:The mindset shift that helped Blair move from chasing clients to choosing them.What not to include in a proposal—and how to avoid giving strategy away too soon.When your sales process is actually shaping the entire client relationship.Why real authority isn't loud—it's clear.How value-based pricing changes everything.For more information, visit Blair Enns' LinkedIn.Subscribe to Lara's newsletter.Also, follow our host Lara Schmoisman on social media:Instagram: @laraschmoismanFacebook: @LaraSchmoismanSupport the show

Blair Enns is a globally recognized thought leader in creative agency sales and the founder of Win Without Pitching, a revolutionary approach that empowers agencies to lead client engagements without giving away free work. He is the author of bestselling books including Pricing Creativity and his latest, The Four Conversations. In this episode, Blair breaks down his powerful new framework for selling expertise—moving from pitching and price haggling to confidently leading sales conversations. Listeners will learn how to increase closing ratios, price based on value, and shift from being seen as a vendor to a trusted advisor. Today we discussed: 00:00 Opening 00:53 The Cost of Letting the Client Run the Show 04:36 What are the Four Conversations? 06:58 Show Your Expertise without Giving it Away 08:34 Avoid Evaluating the Client 10:08 Power Dynamics of the Sale 12:56 The Value Conversation 16:18 Working Around Client Budget 18:20 Price the Client, Not the Service 19:53 Moving From Vendor to Trusted Advisor Rate, Review, & Follow If you liked this episode, please rate and review the show. Let us know what you loved most about the episode. Struggling with strategy? Unlock your free AI-powered prompts now and start building a winning strategy today!

Instead of beginning the relationship with a prospective client by presenting a deck on why your agency is so amazing and why you should be invited to pitch, Blair encourages us to have the “Probative Conversation” from his Four Conversations sales model.   LINKS "There Is No Credentials Meeting" article by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com "The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise" 2Bobs episode The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise book by Blair Enns

Welcome to episode 139. My guest is Blair Enns - a globally recognised author, speaker and the founder of Win Without Pitching, a sales training company that has transformed how creative professionals position and sell their expertise Blair is the author of three books; o The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, a rallying cry for creative agencies to stop giving away their thinking for free. o Pricing Creativity, a guide to pricing your work based on value, not hours. o And now, his latest book - The Four Conversations a model for selling expertise If you've ever felt stuck in the sales process, unsure how to talk about money, or like you're chasing clients instead of leading them - this episode is for you. You can connect with Blair Enns here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blairenns/ Website: http://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ Books: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Blair-Enns/s?rh=n%3A266239%2Cp_27%3ABlair%2BEnns

Blair sees high price anchors everywhere—from buying a suit to ordering a burger. So what factors should creative firms keep in mind as they use anchoring in selling their service options? And when is the best time to present the anchor option within the sales conversation?   Links “Anchor High” by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Jordan explores "The Four Conversations" by Blair Enns, focusing on the qualifying and value conversations in the sales process. He talks about transforming sales from presentations to meaningful dialogues, examining how to qualify prospects and understand what truly constitutes value for clients.

The more unexpected the metaphor, the more information it carries. Blair has four less-obvious metaphors to give you access to entire playbooks in just four words when selling your expertise.   LINKS "The Power of a Metaphor" written by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Episode summary:In this episode of OnBase, host Chris Moody sits down with Trent Talbert to dissect the 2025 B2B marketing landscape—from evolving ABM strategies to the real reason high-growth companies are struggling despite bigger budgets. Trent shares insights from the newly released AMP25 survey and offers sharp, data-backed guidance on where modern marketers should double down and what they should ditch.You'll hear why personalization is still broken in most orgs, how bold messaging can break through the noise, and why “do more with less” is a dangerous myth. Packed with practical wisdom and a few mic-drop moments, this episode is a must-listen for any B2B marketer looking to elevate their strategy this year.Key TakeawaysOptimism in Goals: A significant majority (80%) of B2B tech marketers are optimistic about achieving their goals this year.  Growth Challenges: Faster-growing companies often face more challenges, requiring a broader approach to marketing.  ABM and Personalization: Organizational silos can hinder effective ABM and personalization. Emerging brands have an advantage in implementing these strategies due to their lack of legacy systems.  Standing Out: Brands can capture attention through bold, creative, and emotionally resonant messaging that balances rational appeals.  Customer Focus: There's a growing emphasis on customer loyalty, lifetime value, and downstream engagement, including onboarding and renewals.  Budget Trends: Most budgets are flat or increasing, but companies are urged to choose either a cost-reduction or growth strategy.  Tactic Stability: The top six marketing tactics have remained consistent, highlighting the importance of executing fundamentals well and creating a coherent customer experience across channels.  Best Moments (00:35) - Trent Talbert's career journey in B2B tech.  (02:39) - The relationship between growth and marketing challenges.  (03:54) - Obstacles to fully leveraging ABM and personalization.  (06:51) - Strategies for brands to stand out.  (10:05) - Budget trends and strategic recommendations.  (14:05) - The importance of strategic focus.  (16:54) - Recommended tools in the intent and personalization space.  (18:05) - Trent's favorite reads and the importance of brand building.Tech RecommendationsDemandbase – ABM + intent toolsMutiny – Website personalizationBooks:The Four Conversations by Blair EnnsPodcasts:Two Bobs Podcast with Blair Enns & David C. BakerReports:April Six Marketing Pulse 2025Blair Enns, Founder, Win Without PitchingApril Dunford, Founder, Ambient Strategy, and positioning expert for tech companiesBob Wright, Founder, FirebrickAnna Powell, RevOps influencer in the B2B spaceAbout the guest:Trent Talbert is a seasoned professional with a strong background in strategy and account management. At April Six, Trent currently holds the position of Head of Strategy for North America. Prior to this role, Trent worked at Doremus as an Account Supervisor, gaining experience in various account executive roles. Trent has also worked in advertising and PR, further showcasing their diverse skill set. With a BS in Business-Marketing from the University of Missouri Trulaske College of Business, Trent is well-equipped to handle the challenges of their dynamic roles in the industry.Connect with Trent.

Most founders wait too long to adapt. Ray Deck says that's a mistake—and shows how to scale smarter using the tools you already have.What if the biggest leverage in your business isn't new funding or a bigger team—but the knowledge and trust you've already built?This week, I'm joined by Ray Deck, founder of State Change, to break down how AI, no-code, and personal reputation are changing the game for founders ready to scale—without burning out.Ray's seen it all—from the dot-com bust to the rise of SaaS—and now he's helping entrepreneurs build smarter by tapping into tools that amplify what they already know.We get into:

As Blair continues to encourage expert practice owners to price the client and not the service, he and David discuss the pros and cons of four levels of pricing authority they should be thinking about within their firm, instead of just assuming pricing responsibility automatically defaults to a specific role or job title. Links “Who Should Set Prices In Your Firm?” written by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com

The 4 Steps to Selling Your Expertise as an ArchitectBlair Enns, founder of Win Without Pitching and author of The Four Conversations, joins the podcast to share a powerful framework for selling expertise as an architect. He explains how positioning yourself as a trusted advisor rather than just a service provider leads to stronger client relationships and better business outcomes.The conversation explores the four key stages of selling—probative, qualifying, value, and closing conversations—helping architects identify the right clients, set prices based on value rather than industry norms, and confidently say no to misaligned projects. Blair also discusses common sales pitfalls, how to recognize red flags in client relationships, and why shifting the focus from selling to advising creates more successful engagements.Whether you're struggling with pricing, client fit, or closing deals, this episode provides actionable insights to help you build a more profitable and sustainable architectural practice.This week at EntreArchitect Podcast, The 4 Steps to Selling Your Expertise as an Architect with Blair Enns.Learn more about Blair online at Win Without Pitching, check out his podcast 2Bobs, and connect with him on LinkedIn.Referenced in this EpisodeEA219: Pricing Creativity with Author Blair Enns [Podcast]The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise by Blair Enns [book]Please visit Our Platform SponsorsGo to https://betterhelp.com/architect for 10% off your first month of therapy with BetterHelp and get matched with a therapist who will listen and help. Thank you to our sponsor BetterHelp for supporting our community of small firm entrepreneur architects.ARCAT.com is much more than a product catalog, with CAD, BIM, and specifications created in collaboration with manufacturers. ARCAT.com also offers LEED data, continuing education resources, newsletters, and the Detailed podcast. Visit https://ARCAT.com to learn more.

One of the worst parts of the job for many? Figuring out pricing. If you've ever had to price anything, this is a must listen episode. Blair Enns is the visionary behind Win Without Pitching, the organization that's rewritten the rules on how expert advisors and creatives close deals. As the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity, plus co-host of the 2Bobs Podcast, Blair has redefined integrity-based selling and value-based pricing for countless leaders. In this episode, he and Ryan explore why fear is an inevitable part of the sales process and how embracing courage can help you command higher fees. Blair shares practical strategies to avoid “pitching prisons,” from anchoring high on pricing to structuring proposals with multiple options. He also shares some nuggets from his new book, The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise, and reveals the unexpected path that led him from big-city advertising to a remote Canadian mountain town, where his mission to help businesses thrive took root.

In Blair's experience, the most common reason a lead generation plan doesn't get executed is it doesn't recognize and leverage the strengths or motivations of the individuals executing.   LINKS "The Best Lead Generation Plan" article by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com "The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation" 2Bobs episode

Blair shares how to determine whether or not we are the advantaged player the “polite battle for control” within the game of sales, and how we can get the odds of winning the sale to be more in our favor.   Links “Assume an Advantaged Player” article by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com

David interviews Blair about his new book, which lays out his proven framework B2B service providers can use to increase closing ratios and average proposal values.   Links Order The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise by Blair Enns

Blair sees four common behaviors when business owners are looking to get deals moving in times of economic decline, stagnation, or uncertainty that end up doing long term harm to their positioning and pricing.   LINKS "Four Ways to Commodify Your Offering" by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com "Phase Your Client Engagements" 2Bobs episode

For this episode of Sell With Authority we are doubling down on value-based pricing to help you future-proof your agency. Our guest expert is a true authority when it comes to pricing and sales strategy. Blair Enns, the CEO of Win Without Pitching and the author of the widely acclaimed Win Without Pitching Manifesto joins the podcast. His latest book, Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour, is a must-read for anyone looking to get a handle on pricing in their business. I was inspired by one of his articles on quantifying the value of pricing. Specifically, the part about ‘the elephant in the room' when it comes to pricing really hit home — because we've all been there. The uncertainty pricing brings to agency owners is a challenge we just can't ignore. So, I knew we had to bring Blair on the show to dive into this topic and help us all navigate the complexities of pricing with confidence. And to make this conversation even richer, also joining is our very own Mad Scientist and Strategist, Hannah Roth. Hannah works tirelessly in the trenches with our clients, helping them fill their sales pipelines with right-fit clients so they can sell more of what they do best. If you're an agency owner struggling with pricing, this episode will give you the framework and confidence you need to untether from time-based billing. A big dose of gratitude to our presenting sponsor for the podcast, Conduit Digital. By using their expertise in streamlining, upgrading & scaling your clients…they promise to reduce your risk so you can become the best digital agency in your market in 30-days. You can find Conduit and all their helpful insights and smarts here. What you will learn in this episode: How to shift from selling inputs and outputs to focusing on value creation for right-fit clients Why mastering the value conversation can radically transform your agency's profitability Blair's simple – yet powerful – four-step framework for implementing value-based pricing How to view your client portfolio as an investment portfolio to tailor pricing strategies The pitfalls to avoid when transitioning away from traditional pricing models Resources: Website: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/ LinkedIn Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blairenns/ LinkedIn Business: https://www.linkedin.com/company/win-without-pitching/ Win Without Pitching Manifesto Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour Additional Resources: Website: www.predictiveroi.com Visit our newly expanded Resource Library Join us in our free How to Fill Your Sales Pipeline Facebook Group

In this episode, Kenrick Mills shares his journey from odd jobs to building a successful video production business. He emphasizes the importance of finding a niche and focusing on a specific type of client. Kenrick's favorite type of project is interior design videos, as they allow him to be creative and showcase beautiful spaces. He also discusses the benefits of working with retainer clients and building long-term relationships. In this conversation, Ryan and Kenrick discuss the importance of finding a niche and the power of YouTube for businesses. They emphasize the need to practice what you preach and the value of showing up on social media platforms. Kenrick shares his plans to start a YouTube channel to reach business owners who need creative services. Ryan encourages him to focus on his unique perspective and personality to stand out in the market. They both highlight the abundance of opportunities and the importance of consistency in content creation. Key Takeaways Finding a niche and focusing on a specific type of client can make your job easier and more enjoyable. Building long-term relationships with retainer clients can provide consistent work and a steady income. Interior design videos offer the opportunity to be creative and showcase beautiful spaces. Creating a landing page and marketing content that speaks directly to your target audience can help attract more clients. Crossover opportunities often arise when working within a specific niche, allowing you to expand your client base. Finding a niche within a specific industry opens up more opportunities within that niche. Being consistent and showing up on social media platforms, especially YouTube, can help businesses grow and attract clients. Every individual and business has a unique perspective and personality that sets them apart from competitors. Practicing what you preach and investing in your own brand and content can build trust and credibility with potential clients. Creating content that provides value and speaks to your ideal clients can make it easier for them to connect with you and book your services. About Kenrick Mills Kenrick Mills has been running a boutique content agency in Jupiter, Florida since 2014. He helps small to medium sized businesses grow their brand, sell their projects more efficiently, and help them tell their story. In This Episode [00:00] Welcome to the show! [05:54] Meet Kenrick Mills [07:31] Earth Walker Media [18:41] Benefits Of Niching Down [27:15] Niching Through YouTube [48:15] Connect with Kenrick [49:11] Outro Quotes "I just have this type of person that I'm trying to work with more than a specific type of client." - Kenrick Mills “That makes your job so much harder when you don't have a specific persona, a specific niche, or a specific problem that you solve with a particular kind of video. And my challenge to people is like, well, just pick something and you don't have to do that work forever. It's just going to be for a period of time. Like you need to create some momentum and some traction.” - Ryan Koral “I think it's Blair Enns says something about a creative sees 10 doors and wants to open every single one. But niching down is going into that door, that one door, and just finding that there are actually 10 more doors behind that one door.” - Kenrick “If you feel like, ‘I'm just afraid of having a niche because I don't want to get stuck doing the same old thing,' that's not how you're wired. You're not going to do the same old thing. You're going to think of new things. And it's going to challenge you. And you're going to rise to the challenge because you are a creative.” - Ryan Guest Links Find Kenrick Mills online Follow Earthwalker Media on Instagram | Facebook Links Download a copy of Ryan's Networking Guide Join the Grow Your Video Business Facebook Group  Follow Ryan Koral on Instagram Follow Grow Your Video Business on Instagram Check out the full show notes

Thinking about quitting your job to start a business? Think again! Veteran entrepreneur Steve Lomas shares candid advice on the realities of entrepreneurship, the importance of mentorship, and the emotional rollercoaster of building a business.

Given these uncertain economic times we are in right now, Blair is asking if some creative firms might need to rethink the market they serve, looking at whether their positioning might be too broad, too narrow, or just wrong.   LINKS "The Target Is Not the Market" by Blair Enns on winwithoutpitching.com

Pricing is a prison cell of our own making. And it's cultural. Blair has come up with a series of prompts as a creative exercise to help us all move into a realm of higher pricing.   Links “Creating a Culture of Premium Pricing” by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com “Have we Hit Peak Strategy?” “Be the Client You Want to See in the World”

For years, agency advisors like Chip and Gini have implored agencies to be strategic and avoid being simple order takers. Owners were told that this shift was key to increasing profitability and client retention. But has it gone too far? In this episode, Chip and Gini examine whether agencies have hit ‘peak strategy’ as suggested recently by Blair Enns. They ask whether some agencies are overemphasizing strategy at the expense of implementation. They note that clients say they want their agencies to think strategically, but they also balk at explicit costs for strategic planning. They maintain that agencies should incorporate strategy into their overall services without explicitly charging for it, and emphasize the need for balance between strategic planning and practical execution. Chip and Gini also discuss proper pricing strategies, ensuring clients receive value without feeling nickel-and-dimed. The conversation highlights the necessity of delivering workable strategies tailored to client needs and the importance of understanding costs and pricing based on agency specifics. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You need to be strategic. You need to be viewed that way, but you don’t need to rub it in the client’s face and make them pay for it explicitly in a line item on the invoice.” Gini Dietrich: “When we say you need to look at your pricing, you need to increase your prices, it’s because you have to fold in your account management and your results reporting and your data analysis and your strategy.” Chip Griffin: “A restaurant doesn’t offer someone wine and then itemize the glass because you’re not going to let them sit there and drink it straight out of the bottle. That’s how strategy should be. It’s the glass.” Gini Dietrich: “There’s a common occurrence that’s happening that I see happening more and more where people are asking one another what they’re charging for things. And I think that’s the completely wrong approach. When you’re thinking about pricing, you have to figure out what it costs you and price it that way.” Resources Have We Hit Peak Strategy? View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini, you know, strategy. Does strategy even matter? We don’t really care about strategy, do we? We just kind of amble forward. And that’s what we should do with our clients, right? Gini Dietrich: We do care about strategy. I think it’s in how we position it, that is different. Chip Griffin: Oh, Really, the topic is, have we hit peak strategy? That’s something that Blair Enns of Win Without Pitching was writing about recently, and he was talking about how agencies have been encouraged to head towards strategy, to build for strategy, to demonstrate strategy to their clients, and he’s questioning now whether agencies have perhaps overcorrected in this direction, and we’ll include a link in the show notes so you can read it because it’s a much more detailed assessment than what I just condensed it down to in 15 seconds. But let’s talk about agencies, strategy, and clients. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a couple of things going on. For sure, you know, people like us, and we’ve done this too, and other agency owner advisors have talked about the importance of raising your prices and finding things, packages, for lack of a better term, or projects that you can do that are easy for a prospect to sign on to become a client. And I, I think that those things still stand. I think that, overall, and generally, most agencies don’t charge correctly. They’re not priced correctly. And overall, just like I think we talked about last week or the week before, there are too many agencies that are going in for a full year retainer versus in times that are tough, like this year, doing project based kind of work. So I do think there’s something to be said for those things. But to your point, I think that we have over expanded and a really good example of this is that we have always, gosh, probably for the last seven or eight years, we’ve always started a new client with a strategic planning session. And in the last couple of years, and it’s been great because it’s a project. It helps. We charge a certain price for it. It, it gets us into an organization fast. We learn about the business fast. We get access to all of the tools that we need on their end really quickly. We get the executive’s attention really quickly and we get some, we show them some demonstrable results and something tangible within 30 days. So it’s great from that perspective, but in the last year and a half, I would say every single prospect has said something along the lines of, we don’t really need that or let’s just get started. Or, you know, our last agency did a big strategic planning session. Can you use what they created? And it’s been one of those things. So we’ve had to sort of take a step back and go, okay, wait. Let’s not talk about a strategic planning session to launch the relationship. Let’s, let’s try something else. And I think it goes to what Blair Enns is writing about or talking about right now. Chip Griffin: Yeah. For, I mean, for many years, agency advisors have told agency owners that if you want to be able to charge more, you have to be strategic. You have to be viewed as a strategic advisor and not merely an implementer who just delivers individual tactical executions. You need to be at that level. And so I’ve seen this shift in a lot of the agencies that I’ve talked with where they really want to lean into that. And so they do things like try to explicitly charge for strategy. Or at the extreme, I talked to some agency owners who are like, I don’t even want to do implementation. I just want to get paid for strategy. Now let’s start with the extreme end there. Almost no client today wants to pay just for strategy. They’re out there. They’re very, very few and far between. Most clients. may even understand that you need to be strategic, but they don’t want to feel like they’re paying for it. So to me, the first lesson I take from what Blair was talking about and something that I’ve encouraged my own clients for a number of years is don’t ever explicitly charge for strategy. Don’t have a line item that says strategy in whatever you’re doing. You need to be strategic. You need to be viewed that way, but you don’t need to rub it in the client’s face and make them pay for it explicitly. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. And I, I mean, there are other things on that you and I discussed before we hit record that are on the, that can be on the invoice or in the scope of work as well, which are project strategy for one. Project management or account management, administrative work, like all of the things that we have to do to be – results reporting – we have to do to be able to do our jobs. But clients don’t want to pay for it. So those are the things that you say when we say you need to look at your pricing, you need to increase your prices. It’s because you have to fold those things into it. You have to fold in your account management and your results reporting and your data analysis and your strategy. You have to fold it all into the pricing and then do the work so that you’re able to do those things and get paid for it. But it’s not something that a client or a prospect can go, Eh, you know, we don’t really need account management. We can do without results reporting, and we definitely don’t need strategy. You do need those things, but they’re not, you have to do it in a way that they can’t just remove it from the scope of work. Chip Griffin: Right. Whenever you’re talking about something that you’re line iteming with a client, something that’s going on the invoice here, in the proposal, you never, ever, ever should list anything that can’t be removed or added. You only want to include those things where it’s truly a menu option. You don’t, you know, if you’re a restaurant, you don’t offer someone wine and then itemize the glass because they can’t have the wine without the, you’re not gonna let them sit there and just drink it straight out of the bottle. Gini Dietrich: I mean, you could give them a straw. Chip Griffin: You could, but you’re not going, if you have a nice restaurant, you’re not going to allow that. So you should not have an explicit charge for the glass. Even though there is a cost, there’s absolutely a cost to have it, to purchasing that glassware, maintaining that glassware, cleaning that glassware, delivering it to the table. There’s breakage, there’s all sorts of costs that go into it, but you don’t actually charge the restaurant customer for the glass. You charge them for the wine and they get the glass along with it. That’s how strategy should be. It’s the glass. Gini Dietrich: I love that analogy. And there you go. There’s the end of the episode because that’s perfect. So there you go. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, but I do think you need to be thinking in general about all of these kinds of things that you’re putting in there. And it reminds me, I think I’ve shared this story previously on this show. Certainly I’ve shared it a lot of other places, but when I first started hiring agencies myself back in the mid 90s when I was in house, I had agencies that would nickel and dime me for faxes and copies and things like that. There are very few things more irritating than getting an invoice for a dollar per page for faxes. And you young folks don’t even know what faxes are. But anyway, look it up. I’m sure you can, you can hear the screeching noise if you go on YouTube and put fax machine noise in there or something like that. You’ll know what all of us have heard for many years. Anyway, you need to be thinking about how is this being received by my client? None of it means these are things you shouldn’t do. For example, you need to do things to maintain the client relationship. Should you expressly charge them for the time that it takes for you to go and pitch a renewal? No! No client’s going to want to pay for that. But, your overall pricing needs to account for the fact that you’re going to spend the time to put together the proposal for the renewal, that you’re going to go visit them. It needs to factor in the travel costs. Again, don’t charge the client to go visit them. To pitch the renewal. Nobody wants to pay for that, but you do need to price it into the work that you’re doing. And so understanding that these are two different things is important. And I think the other thing is just when it comes to strategy itself, be careful that you don’t overvalue it, right? Strategy is important. Absolutely. You’ve got to have it. But if you sit down and you say, okay, well, Chip and Gini say, well, we shouldn’t itemize strategy, but I’m going to include it in there. I’m going to put a big number in there because it’s really important. And we’ve got really great ideas. I’m sure you do. I’m sure you have the best ideas and the best team and all of that, but you’ve got to be reasonable in what you’re charging. As my old business partner used to say, pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. So make sure that you are being greedy, but not too greedy. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s exactly right. And another thing is, you know, I, there’s a, there’s a common occurrence that’s happening that I see happening more and more and more in groups that I belong to. Facebook, LinkedIn, Slack, wherever it happens to be. where people are asking one another what they’re charging for things. And I think that’s the completely wrong approach. Now, certainly Is it nice to be able to say, Oh, well, so and so charges 30 grand and so and so charges 25 and so and so charges 20 for this package. Okay, that’s fair. But when you’re thinking about pricing, you have to figure out what it costs you and price it that way. So, you know, I’m in Chicago, so it’s gonna cost me more to get work done than it’s gonna cost someone that you’re working with, Chip, in New Hampshire, right? Because the cost of living is a lot higher here and people get paid more and like all the things, right? So I think that’s the wrong thing to think about. So if you think about and, and I know that we beat this horse to death all the time. But if you think about here’s everything we have to do. And here’s all the software that we need to use. And here’s everything that it takes. Account management, strategy, all those pieces. How much time we’re going to spend in weekly meetings and in you know, creating agendas or whatever it happens to be. All of the stuff has to be incorporated into the pricing. And then you can price based on what’s – and add in your profitability too, be based on what makes sense for your agency, not what makes sense for my agency or what makes sense for another business. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I’d go even further. I mean, it’s, you shouldn’t be worrying about what other agencies are charging. You shouldn’t worry all that much about what they’re scoping either, and whether they’re expressly talking about strategy or not, right? You need to figure out what you need to do in order to deliver the results that your prospects and clients are looking for. I will almost certainly guarantee you that’s not strategy only. Right. No matter whether you find another agency owner who says that that’s what they’re doing or not. If they say that, I would seriously question it because I do think it is so few clients today who will pay for strategy only. But even if you hear, even if you believe that, you still need to sit down and say, well, how much strategy do I really need to do here? What is it really going to take? And if by strategy it means you spend two hours putting together a few ideas on a piece of paper, is it valuable? Yes. Should you charge through the nose for it? Absolutely not. Because it’s two hours. And I know we, you know, we get excited about value pricing and all that kind of stuff. And I think everybody here knows that I think value pricing is silly for 99 percent of agencies because almost 100 percent of agencies don’t even understand what it is, let alone having it as a viable thing that they can use. But you need to figure out what you need to do to get the job done, and then you need to figure out what does it actually cost you to your point. It is very different in different places. It would be like landlords getting together in a group and saying, How much do you rent your apartments for? Well, how big is the apartment? Where is the apartment located? And it’s not even just that it’s in Chicago. Where in Chicago is it? It’s going to be different prices in different parts of town. It’s going to be different price based on the age of the building, the square footage of the apartment. There’s so many things that go into it. And so if as an agency, you’re trying to just compare and say, you know, what is everybody else doing and try to follow after them? You’re not thinking about the most important thing, which is what is your client need? What do they value? Yep. Those are the things you should do. And those are the things you should charge for. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the other thing that the other mistake I think I see agency owners make in this kind of scenario is they, they price it by saying, Oh, well, to your point, it takes me two hours to write down ideas. It probably takes me two hours for meetings and maybe four hours to do some research on an audit. So I’m eight hours all in. And so I’m going to charge it based on my hourly rate for eight hours. And I’m like, no, First of all, you shouldn’t be the one delivering this, ever, and doing the work. So how much time is it going to take your team? And then they go, oh, well, maybe 10 hours. I’m like, no! It takes your team at least triple the time it takes you. At least. So you have to take those things into account as well. Because you, you have to think about, okay, Yes, if you were doing that, it would take you less time because you have more experience and expertise and all those kinds of things, but you shouldn’t be the one that’s delivering this. So even if you’re the one who’s delivering it in the beginning, you still have to price it based on who’s going to deliver it six months from now, a year from now, because that’s gonna be really hard to go from your eight hours at $150 an hour to 24 hours at $125 an hour. It’s gonna be, that’s a huge divide. So you have to think about those things too. And I think we, I see a lot of agency owners make that mistake. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and I think as we’re thinking about strategy and, you know, bashing on how agencies work with strategy. I’m going to continue it. I think the other thing when it comes to strategy is that that we need to be putting together strategies that are actually workable for our clients. Because I’ve seen a lot of strategies put together that look great on paper. That maybe it’s the absolute right idea, but it needs to be a strategy that can be sold internally with the client that they will actually buy into. It needs to be a strategy that they can actually implement both from a resource perspective as well as a cost perspective and a time perspective and an organizational tolerance perspective. I mean, if I go into a, a client and say the solution, you know, you would knock it out of the park with video, but they don’t have anybody they want to put on camera. They don’t have any desire to do that. They’re nervous about YouTube. That’s probably not a good strategy for them. So the strategy needs to be something that they can actually implement and ideally that you can implement for them because ultimately what people are really paying for is that the outputs and the results and we can sit here all day long and say that’s wrong. They shouldn’t, they shouldn’t pay us for a press release or a website or a video or a social media post. But guess what? That’s what they’re paying for. In their minds, that’s what they’re paying for And you can sit there and you can have a religious conversation with them about how that’s not really what it is and we really need to be thinking about results and all this which is all great And you need to think about it. You need to report on it. But if if you get so wound up in that, you will go out of business. Because that’s not what clients want. Gini Dietrich: They hire agencies because they need extra arms and legs. They need somebody’s help to do the work and not to think. I mean, yes, to think and to do the work. So, you know, I mean, there are plenty of us and I’m the same. Like if you came to me and said, Hey Gini, I’d love to hire your agency to do social media. And, but I want you to be the one who does it. I’m like, no freaking way. No, thank you. And even if it’s not strategic from their perspective, even if it costs them a ton of money because I’m the one doing it, I’m still not going to do it. So you also have to be able to say, not the right fit for us. But it has to be based on what they expect the relationship to bring, not because you think they’re not strategic. Chip Griffin: So, I mean, I think the bottom line is, do you need to be strategic? Yes. Do you need to be smart about how you’re being strategic with your clients? Yes. Do you need to charge explicitly for strategy? Absolutely not. Hell no. Please don’t do that. Can you be a strategy only agency? Probably not. Do you need to tie strategy to actual tactics and results? Yep. Absolutely. I mean, and I think because we’ve talked so long, not, not just the two of us, but the agency advisor community generally about the importance of strategy, we have pushed too many agencies into over correcting on this. And we need to pull them back in and help them to understand that it’s about balance. Ignoring strategy completely and just being an order taker, that’s bad too. We’re not, we’re not telling you to now over correct back and don’t have the pendulum swing back the other way so hard that you just, you know, go in there and you say, I’ll just do whatever you tell me to do as long as you’ll pay for it. We don’t want that either. You’ve got to have balance. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think that, you know, just incorporating it into the work that you do and into your pricing is the right way to do it. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And it works. It’ll help your clients. It helps your team, frankly, if they understand why they’re doing things and they’re being part of that, that process. So, so wrap it in. Just make strategic thinking part of what you do. Don’t make it something that you put up on a pedestal and try to charge a billion bucks for. Gini Dietrich: And remember that you’re serving a very nice bottle of wine, and along with that they get a glass and some service. Chip Griffin: That’s right. And if anybody out there can find a restaurant that actually charges you for the glass, I look forward to seeing your comment on whatever platform you’re listening or watching us on. With that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m going to go get, no, I’m not going to eat a glass of wine. It’s only one o’clock in the afternoon right now. So, so with that, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini examine whether agencies have hit 'peak strategy' as suggested recently by Blair Enns.

Tiago Faria –Digital Business Mentor in the “Help Industry”About meI help experts do the most fun marketing they'll ever do and attract the most presold leads they'll ever get. Oh, and by the way, I do it through podcast guesting.Target AudienceMy expertise primarily caters to coaches, consultants, service providers, or freelancers who rely on trust and expertise to sell high-ticket products or services.AchievementsOver my 15 years in the world of marketing and digital business, I have had the pleasure of:Working at Google's European headquarters in Dublin for 8 years, as a Google Ads specialist and consultant for some of the biggest companies in Europe and the Middle EastCompleted a 120 day challenge on YouTube in 2021, creating 120 videos in 120 consecutive days (this after interviewing more than 60 entrepreneurs and experts on my podcast, including Chris Do, Miles Beckler, Marty Neumeier, Mike Michalowicz, Blair Enns, Pia Silva, and others)Booked 67 podcasts in only 4 months, being featured as a guest on top 1-2% podcasts like Podcasting Your Global Career, Straight Talk No Sugar Added Podcast, and Marketing SpeakSuggested QuestionsWhy podcast guesting and not any other marketing method or media?How do I pitch myself to podcasts without sounding sleazy?I'm not sure I can be an interesting guest… is this really for me?How do I make sure I can convert listeners into clients?How does this integrate into my overall marketing strategy?How much time does it take to get results?Just for FunOutside of the world of online business, I wouldn't trade anything for time with my wife, Natasha, and my 3-year-old daughter, Kira. In my downtime, I am continually learning new things (mainly through audiobooks and podcasts). I've already traveled to more than 22% of the world (according to TripAdvisor...), and my next goal is to visit all of the 50 US states (9/50).Connect with Mehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/tiagofaria/The Doctor offers a complimentary strategy session at TheDoctorOfDigital@pm.me.https://swellai.com/?via=mick-the-doctor-of-digitalOn Track Ian Hunterhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/1789523044?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_WOLGDN9AD6UWV1H4EG8OBurning America: In the Best Interest of the Children?Mick, The Doctor of Digital, Smith mick.smith@wsiworld.comBurning America: In the Best Interest of the Children?https://burning-america.comAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/G-Mick-Smith/e/B0B59X5R79Also at Barnes & Noble, Walmart, and TargetLeave a message for The Doctor of Digital:https://podinbox.com/thedoctorofdigitalpodcastInstagram: burningamericacommunityPatreon burningamericacommunity:https://www.patreon.com/SmithConsultingWSITheDoctorofDigitalPodcastListen, subscribe, share, and positively review The Aftermath:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aftermath-the-epidemic-of-divorce-custody-and-healing/id1647001828Substack:https://micksmith.substack.com/Commercials Voice Talent ||https://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-1-commercialsNarratives Voice Talenthttps://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-2-narrativesDo you want a free competitive analysis for your business?https://marketing.wsiworld.com/free-competitive-analysis?utm_campaign=Mick_Smith_Podcast&utm_source=SpreakerMake an Appointment:https://www.picktime.com/TheDoctorOfDigitalBe sure to subscribe, like, & review The Doctor of Digital™ PodcastSign up for the Doctor Up Your Life courseFacebook || Instagram || Twitter || LinkedIn || YouTubehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/g-mick-smith-24495127Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-doctor-of-digital-gmick-smith-phd--1279468/support.

This webinar/podcast series is the official companion to the ⁠⁠REFRAME2024.com⁠⁠ we are going to have in October 2024. Parts 4 to 8 will be released the second Friday of each month until October 2024 Topics that will be covered in this series: Communications strategy with clients Communicating your value to command price, standards, and expectations Negotiating terms, pricing, scope, with new and existing clients “Magic Words” that get the other person on your side quickly Fundamental communications skills to transmit your message/ideas to others in an effective matter The most important communications skill set: self-talk How to give advice that customers will follow How to influence the people you do work for and work with to become better people and value your vision (leadership) How to apply this skills in the real world to get significant results

Welcome to episode 112. I'm joined by Shannyn Lee, Managing Director of Win Without Pitching ®, which is widely recognised by the creative industry as one of the best quality sales training programs because it's specifically tailored to agencies. This episode will be particularly valuable for you if your job at the agency is winning new business and you'd like to know how to do that without having to go through a costly pitch process. During our chat, Shannyn shares: - the Win Without Pitching ® principles - what it takes to circumnavigate a client's pitch process - the common sales challenges faced by agencies today - her advice for agency owners who want to stand out in the market, and lots more. Please visit the Win Without Pitching ® website (https://www.winwithoutpitching.com) to find out more about everything the company does, find which workshops are coming up. and to buy Blair Enns' book, ‘The Win Without Pitching Manifesto', which is practically the industry bible. You can connect with Shannyn Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannyn-lee-2a32846/ If you're listening to this episode in April 2024 we are opening enrolments for our May Account Accelerator™ training for those in the agency who are responsible for existing client growth. If your job is to manage client relationships and grow your accounts, check out the details on my website: https://www.accountmanagementskills.com/account-accelerator

As Blair is finishing his new book that drops later this year, he comes to the realization that pretty much everything he does comes down to the fundamental issue that experts think they need to show up as a different person during the sale: pitching, persuading, and convincing instead of as the leader their prospective clients need them to be.   LINKS "The Dichotomy of the Expert Salesperson" article by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com "Ditch the (Sales) Script"

Welcome to episode 106. If you'd like to know how one agency has been using AI since 2011 to predict the future for their clients, this chat will be interesting for you. It will also be insightful if you're curious how the agency works with their global CPG and FMCG brands. ‌Nik Pearmine, Chief Strategy Officer at Black Swan Data, and I cover a range of topics including: - his view on what it takes to be successful in account management - what he thinks is in store for the future - and whether we should be worried about AI replacing our jobs. You can get in contact with Nik via LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikolas-pearmine-138bb612/ If you're listening to this at the beginning of 2024 and are based in the US, I wanted to let you know I'll be running a value-packed seminar with David C Baker and Jack Skeels on 12th and 13th March in Atlanta. ‌The event is all about the account management and project management roles. I'll be talking about the essentials of account management, how to grow an account and how account managers work with project managers. ‌David is extremely well known in the agency industry as he's an agency advisor, the author of “The Business of Expertise” and “Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors” as well as co-hosting the 2Bobs podcast with Blair Enns. ‌You can find all the details and book your tickets at David's website: https://www.punctuation.com

Blair's latest obsession is bounded rationality, in which he sees too many creative firms failing to make “rational” decisions because they choose to bind their businesses with outdated and overly-constraining ideals like the 80/20 principle.   Links “The Great Convergence is Upon Us” by Blair Enns for Win Without Pitching Award-winning “Unapologetically Human” ad campaign by Kruger and BHLA Productize: The Ultimate Guide to Turning Professional Services to Scalable Products by Eisha Tierney Armstrong

Blair weighs in on this year's Forrester report, which shows the ridiculous amount of money agencies have been wasting on pitches.   LINKS "Are These the Last Days of the Pitch?" by Blair Enns for Win Without Pitching "A New Forrester Report Urges Brands and Agencies to 'Ditch the Pitch'" by Olivia Morley for AdWeek published on 4 A's  

Blair identifies the differences between the ethics of selling expertise and the three schools of bargaining ethics, and what happens when we don't adapt our bargaining approach to match our opponents in the game of negotiation.   Links “The Conflicting Ethics of Selling & Negotiating” article by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com

In this episode, Chip and Gini react to a blog post from their friend Christopher S. Penn who writes and speaks frequently and intelligently on new trends in communications and technology. In his piece, Chris argued that agencies should review their business model and pricing structure in response to AI developments in 2023. While the co-hosts see artificial intelligence as a force that will (and already is) impacting agencies, they’re not on board with a wholesale change to agency models as a result. They argue that the value pricing approach advocated by Chris is far more difficult to implement in practice and doesn’t necessarily address the fundamental changes that AI may cause. Instead, Chip and Gini argue that agencies should be looking to better integrate AI into their own processes and understanding how it is transforming how their clients approach the challenges that agencies address. The path they recommend results in agencies evolving their solutions and delivery mechanisms rather than abruptly shifting course dramatically. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “I think that it is certainly premature at best for an agency to say, I’m going to rethink my whole business model because of what AI is doing.” Gini Dietrich: “AI hasn’t created the death of the hourly business – the death of the hourly business has been here for a while.” Chip Griffin: “There are so many innovations that have made work more efficient and faster, and we’ve all figured out how to adapt to them, and it’s not simply by trying to figure out how do I protect my margins against a threat.” Gini Dietrich: “We have an expertise and we have experience. And those two things, along with the trust and the authority that we’ve built, are the reasons somebody is hiring us.” Resources Almost Timely News, September 17, 2023: AI And The Death of the Hourly Business Related Value pricing isn't the answer for every agency View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin Gini Dietrich: and I’m Gini Dietrich Chip Griffin: and Gini I think with all this AI thing, we need to change how we’re doing this whole podcast. Just throw it out and start over. Gini Dietrich: Great. Let’s do it. Chip Griffin: Right after this. Now that I think about it, maybe that’s a little bit of an overreaction to AI. Maybe. Maybe I should take it in and figure out how to, how to use AI as opposed to just discarding our entire podcast and starting over. Gini Dietrich: Or maybe we just let AI do it and we take the credit. Chip Griffin: Well, that’s a good idea. I would love to see how AI would like… Gini Dietrich: I actually, we actually should do an episode on that just to see. Put in props. Chip Griffin: See if we can get Chat GPT to mimic an episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. Gini Dietrich: I love it. I think that’s a funny idea. Chip Griffin: And then we’ll just, we’ll read our lines that it comes up with, that would be, I don’t know. Gini Dietrich: Something, that’d be something. Chip Griffin: That would be something. It would be something if it could even figure it out. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s true. We should do a test like that at some point. Not for a whole episode. Chip Griffin: We have to be careful though, we don’t want this podcast to turn into actual work for us. Gini Dietrich: That’s, that’s a really good point. Chip Griffin: I mean, this is supposed to be, you know, we kibitz for a while, then we hit record and we just say whatever’s on our mind and we hit stop and then we turn it over to Jen. She does all the hard work while we just get to have a little bit of fun. Gini Dietrich: She does do all the hard work. And the best, the best is that she includes, I love that she does this. She includes like clips and stuff to other things that we’ve talked about, or she’ll include a meme or a couple of weeks ago, she included the, the link to the YouTube clip on or short on Tom using, yeah, using people as his footstool. I was like, this is great. She’s great at it. Chip Griffin: You know, she enjoys that part of it. I suspect there’s parts that she doesn’t enjoy, but I think she enjoys our references because it gives her an excuse to go and Google funny clips on the internet and call it work. Gini Dietrich: And then she emails me with funny, snarky remarks, which I also love. I’m a big Jen fan. Chip Griffin: So yes, I suspect at my expense. Not always. Anywho, so what we’re actually going to talk about today is AI and what it means for agencies and their business models, because this is something that came up recently in, of course, the Spin Sucks community. Gini Dietrich: Yep. So our friend Chris Penn recently wrote an article on value based pricing and artificial intelligence, and it was shared in the community, and there was a lively discussion about it, including, From our friend, Chip Griffin, who talked about, you know, whether or not this is applicable to agencies, whether or not we can use AI and how it works for value based pricing. And if AI is making us more efficient, should we be charging more because clients are getting the value of our expertise on top of the AI? Is that a nice way of putting it? Chip Griffin: Sure. Well, needless to say, I found this post to be rather triggering because it, it, it had two of my current triggers, AI and value based pricing just in the, right, just right there. And, and so red alerts, you know, so if Chris was trying to trigger me he couldn’t have found a better way to do it. And I know he wasn’t looking to do that because I, I’m fairly certain that I, you know, I’m not on Chris’s mind every day when he wakes up and says, how can I, how can I, well – Gini Dietrich: now he knows, now he knows, Chip Griffin: now, now he knows if you, if he would like to trigger me, just talk about value based pricing and or AI or put them both together and my head will explode. And look, I, I, You know, I will use the same disclaimer that I used in the community. Some version of, I think Chris is a smart guy. I love a lot of the stuff that he puts out. I follow, I used to sit there and watch him at his Saturday night data party on Facebook. You know, so, so clearly I am a Chris Penn fan. That said, I am not a fan of this post at all. I, I think that it is certainly premature at best for an agency to say, I’m going to rethink my whole business model because of what AI is doing. And to think that the solution is to try to find ways to charge more for the things that AI allows you to do easier, I just, I, I fail to understand that rationale that feels much more like the way old school people look at how do they protect themselves when technology comes along, right? And we have the, my point is that AI is just the latest in a series of technology. It’s cool. It’s great, but it’s, it’s not, it’s not something we haven’t seen before, right? There are so many innovations that have made work more efficient, things get done faster, and all that, and we’ve all figured out how to adapt to them, and it’s not simply by trying to figure out how do I protect my margins against a threat. Gini Dietrich: So I would say, yeah, I would say a couple of things. You know, one of the first things that he talks about in the article, and we’ll link to it in the show notes, is that AI has created the death of the hourly business, and I don’t think that that’s true, because the death of the hourly business has been here for a while. I can’t tell you, that’s actually not true. I was going to say, I can’t tell you the last time I, we, we, billed by the hour. We bill by the hour for crisis work. But nothing else. Everything else is project based or retainer based. And I think that you and I have been talking about this for how many episodes? 205 episodes now? There is, the death of the hourly business has been here and come and gone. And, and even when Phyllis shared the article in the Spin Sucks community, she said we price per project, per project, as I’m sure many of you do as well. So she preempted that by saying, like, we don’t bill by the hour. So what is it about the value based pricing in here that’s beyond the hour, hourly business? Because I think that piece of it is dead, has, is dead, has been dead. You know, nobody, I, I don’t even think attorneys are doing that – my attorney doesn’t bill by the hour anymore. It’s dead. Chip Griffin: I, I disagree with that. We’ve talked about that before. I, I think that there’s a time and place for hourly billing. Obviously, you, you still do it with crisis work, as you said. Yep. And so I think that you know, you should always look at your various options for pricing and figure out what works best for you as well as for your prospects and clients. And in some cases that may be hourly billing. So I, I don’t subscribe to, you know, you should default to no hourly billing, right? I, I think that in many cases it adds complexity and tension that’s unnecessary. And when you have a pretty good sense of how much time something is going to take, I would prefer a fixed fee approach. I mean, my attorney still does charge by the hour. Absolutely. You know, I, I’ve used plumbers recently for some of that they charge by the hour still, right? There are still time there’s when you don’t know how long something is going to take it is the, it is the most fair pricing solution for both parties to do hourly billing. Because if, if neither side really knows how long it’s going to take and you do fixed fee, then someone is, is likely going to get it stuck to them in the end, right? Because either you have to overcharge to protect yourself against the fact that it might take more time. And then if it takes less, now you’re overcharging the recipient, right? So, I, you know, but if you have a reasonable idea of how long it’s going to take within a reasonable margin of error, by all means, use fixed fee. But I, to me, it’s… The whole argument about hourly just doesn’t make sense. People always, you know, somehow lawyers always come into the hourly billing conversation. And so, you know, in the specific, one of the specific examples that Chris used in the post is how he had put together some legal agreement with ChatGPT for a friend and a lawyer reviewed it and said, yep, it’s good to go with no edits. And so, so this is how we must know that hourly billing is dead and it’s going to doom lawyers that ChatGPT exists. Except that, there have always been things that have made it faster and easier for lawyers to do things. My father was a lawyer. I remember going to his office in the late 70s, early 80s, and they sat there and he had a secretarial pool that would type things up that he would, he would record into a dictaphone. You probably need to look that up, but it used to be that you had a handheld telephone. That you would, that you, the attorneys would speak their letters and contracts into, and then someone else would listen to the tape back, and they would type it on a manual typewriter. That would then, you know, have to be edited on paper and then retyped all of this kind of right. So he had that. He had a huge library in the basement of his of his building with all of these case books and law books, and that’s where they went to get information. Now, attorneys type their own letters and contracts. They don’t have a secretary who does it for them. They type into their computer in LexisNexis and they get the citations that they need immediately, just like that. They don’t have to go hunting for it. So the level of efficiency is many orders of magnitude greater than it was in the 70s and 80s. And yet, the hourly billing model is still very much alive and well. And I don’t know about the attorneys you know in your life, but most of them do pretty well. And they’re billing by the hour in most cases still. Some, as you note, have, have stopped doing that. But, but I would say by and large, the attorneys that I come into contact with still use it. So, the hourly billing model is not dead. And AI is not going to destroy it. Because if ChatGPT is your, the only thing that you’re doing, you’re just generating contracts, well then, you didn’t need a lawyer in the first place. Go download a template from somewhere. You can do that already. Gini Dietrich: This contradicts what you said last week, which was never, never use something that hasn’t been reviewed by an attorney. So if you’re going to download the template… Chip Griffin: but if you’re just going to ask ChatGPT to do it, you might as well just download the template, right? I mean, at least the template probably was reviewed at some point in time by some lawyers somewhere. ChatGPT was never reviewed by a lawyer anywhere. Right? So you’ll give, if you give me a choice between the two, I’m probably going to pick the template that some lawyer likely reviewed, particularly with, you know, my knowledge of ChatGPT hallucinating things or that kind of stuff, or the fact that ChatGPT is out of date. And so if there are laws or regulations that will come along in the interim that cause, that mean your contractor agreement should be different, well, ChatGPT can’t by definition know about that. And good lawyers ask you a lot of questions to figure out what you really need and to help you understand what the risks are because there’s not a one size fits all contract or agreement for anyone. You can cover everything, but if you do that, you’ll probably never get the other party to sign. Right. So a good lawyer sits with you and says, okay, let’s talk about the work you’re doing. Let’s talk about what you’re worried about from a risk standpoint. How much exposure are you willing to accept? And that’s how you figure out what to include or exclude for your personal circumstances. ChatGPT cannot do that in 2023. Gini Dietrich: I think you bring up a really great point too, which is the same for for agency owners, which is we have an expertise and we have experience. And those two things, along with the trust that we’ve built and the authority that we’ve built, those, those things are what somebody is hiring us for, right? They’re hiring us because we have expertise and experience that they either don’t have internally, or that they need extra brains around because there’s something coming up. And that’s why they hire agencies. They don’t hire agencies because they have a team internally who can do it. And oh, they’re just going to use ChatGPT. And can we just review it? That’s not how it works. So yes, we can use ChatGPT to make us more efficient. And when we were talking before the show started, I relayed one of the things that we use it for pretty consistently, which is we have a client who does an hour long webinar every week. And before ChatGPT came into our lives, probably last November, we had, we, we would have it transcribed by Remy or Tev, and then we would. Or I just, just did that different, that Rev or Temi, my dyslexic brain. Chip Griffin: I was, I was trying to figure out where you were going. I’m like, I was trying to process that in my head and I thought it was actually someone’s name, like Remy somebody and… Gini Dietrich: Temi or Rev and, and then back before November, we would have to go through and clean it all up, and then we’d have to create content from it. Now what we do is we throw that transcript into ChatGPT, we have it cleaned up, and then we say, create three outlines for three blog posts on this, on this topic. So then it gives us a starting point and an outline for us to create the content, and it probably saves. 20 hours a week easily. Are we, we’re not charging more for that. We’re not charging less for that. What we’re doing is we’re saying, here’s all of this. And they’re, they’re ecstatic because they’re getting it so much faster. They’re getting it within a day instead of almost the following, almost the following week, they’re getting it really fast. So they’re ecstatic. And then we’re taking that time and we’re putting it into other things that we know need to be done for this client. So they’re like thinking they won the lottery because they’re paying the same exact amount, but they’re, they feel like they’re getting more. They’re getting something delivered a lot faster, several days faster than when we were doing it manually. And we’re doing other projects that have been on the back burner for several months because we, we’ve been spending all this time doing all this content that now ChatGPT helps us do. So my point is that It’s you’re not going to, you can use it to be efficient, but you don’t have to charge more or less because you’re using it and you don’t have to say, Oh, my gosh, it’s going to replace us because it’s making you more efficient. It’s giving you an opportunity to be able to do more for your clients. Chip Griffin: Right. And we’re constantly getting access to those kinds of things in the agency world. I mean, looking at, at all of the things that we do today as a PR or marketing agency in 2023, almost all of them are easier to do today than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. I mean, your example of the secretary pool. Chip Griffin: I can’t remember the last time I stood at a copy machine. Correct. Or a fax machine. Correct. Gini Dietrich: Or send packages back and forth to clients to get approval. Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, I load paper into my printer about once every six months now, right? You know, it’s, these are all things that took a lot of time before. Yes. And all of the technological advances have helped improve what we do, right? I mean, the, the mobile phones that we all carry with us have given us the ability to do things at times and places that we never could have before. Those are all good things if we figure out how to use them, right. AI is the same way. That’s right. AI is not a nuclear bomb. That’s going to come in and destroy everything. And, and so when I hear people talk about, you know, because of AI, we need to completely redo everything. No, we need to figure out how to integrate it in what we’re doing. And I love that you talked about how you can use it to make yourself more efficient and produce better, more timely results for clients. That is very different than the example of using AI to replace a lawyer or an agency or something like that. And if someone, if someone is going to use ChatGPT to replace the work that the agency is going to do… well, that’s not a, that’s not a playing field I want to be on anyway, right? I want them to understand why, why I can provide them something that is above and beyond what the AI can do. And to your point. We have as experts have knowledge. We have things that go beyond what the technology can presently do. And we can look out there and say, okay, here’s what’s going on in the world today. And so maybe you don’t want to say it this way. You want to say it that way. Or maybe you want to go with this particular approach because we’ve seen it working of late. If you’re relying on ChatGPT, it knows what worked a year and a half ago. Right. That’s not the same thing as an agency that’s staying on top of things. And it’s not, it’s also not human. So it can’t read people’s perceptions, at least again in 2023, in the same way that we as experts can. And so if someone wants to just use it and have it, you know, write press releases and put together target lists and have it do it all on its own. God bless ’em. Go do that. Those aren’t the clients that I’m trying to fight for. Gini Dietrich: No, and I think that the agencies wanting to do that as well are not the agencies that that should be hired because clients are hiring you for your experience and your expertise. And if you’re not going to add that on top of the artificial intelligence that you’re using to make yourself more efficient, then you’re not providing the best result that you can for your clients. So yes, absolutely use it. To make yourself more efficient. And yes, absolutely use it to, to create better, faster results. But you have to provide that expertise on top of it, or you’re not, there’s no reason for you to be in business at all. Chip Griffin: Right. And if you’re able to use it to make you more efficient, you know, some of that can go to your bottom line in the form of profits, some of that can go to increasing the bandwidth you have to do more for the client for the same fee. That’s right. I mean, you know, if you can, if you can shave off, you know, 10 hours a month because you’re using ChatGPT to do summaries and edits and that kind of stuff, I mean, certainly take some of that to your bottom line, but take some of those hours and do something more to produce some more results that are still within scope, I’m not encouraging scope creep here, but there’s a lot of things, even within scope. A lot of times we say, well, we just don’t have time to get to that this month. Have time to get to that. Deepen your relationship with that client. Make them stickier. Find a way to upsell them on something else. You’ll come out ahead in the end if you’re using it intelligently and not seeing it as a threat that causes you to have to redo and rethink everything. And if you’re going to redo and rethink everything, please, please don’t play with value pricing. It is, it is one of the most dangerous things for people to do who don’t even get basic pricing correct. And this is, I’ve talked about this before. And even if you listen to Blair Enns, who is probably the biggest proponent of value pricing, that is Win Without Pitching and, and the groups that he has and all that. He is a huge proponent, but he will tell you quite clearly that this is not pricing 101. You don’t start at value pricing. Value pricing is a graduate level activity. And so until you get to the point where you just can knock it out of the park with hourly or fixed rate billing. And you know you can do it consistently, reliably, profitably, in a way that your prospects are believing that they’re getting great results from you when they become clients. If you’re not able to do that, value pricing is not the answer. Because value pricing is very difficult. It’s very complicated. It requires you to have a real specialization in the work that you do, in the industries you serve, so that you understand what that true value is, and have the confidence that you truly can deliver that value in the same way that the client sees that value. Those are not easy things to do. It sounds great on paper, it feels good when you watch it in a 30 second YouTube short. That is not the same as actually implementing it in your agency in real life. Gini Dietrich: And I will tell you that there are situations that we do value pricing, but it’s things like speaking engagements. You know, where I, the, the client and there have been times where a prospect has said, I don’t understand why this costs so much money, you’re only going to be on stage for an hour. Yes. You’re right. I’m only going to be on stage for an hour, but I have 20 years behind me of experience that I’ve built to this level that allows me to be able to get on stage for an hour. And I’m going to be away from the business and, you know, like all of the other stuff that goes around it. So you have to be able to say, prove that the reason you’re asking for that price is because of all the stuff that you have around it. Not just because you’re spending only an hour on something, but because you actually have the expertise to be able to, to provide value based pricing. And it’s hard, like people will say, I just don’t understand why it costs so much money when you’re only going to be on stage for an hour. You’re like, okay, well then you’re not the right client for me. Chip Griffin: But see, even that I would argue is not truly value based pricing, right? That is premium pricing. And I think this is one of the areas where people get confused in the difference between premium pricing Right? I mean, a lawyer who charges you $1,000 an hour is engaging really in premium pricing. Value pricing, to use your speaking engagement example, would be you understanding what is the value to the event organizer for having you on the stage? What percentage of ticket sales can they attribute to the fact that you’re, you’re listed as a keynote? What percentage of the satisfaction of, of attendees derives from the fact that they loved the keynote that you gave? Right, that could, because that’s where you get to what the value is of your speech. The fact that you’ve got a lot of experience leading into it justifies the value, but it is not the true essence of value based pricing, which says, okay, I’m going to produce this press release for you. It’s going to generate, in my view, an additional 1,000,000 in sales, and I want a piece of that action. Maybe not explicitly, but because I know it’s going to generate a million in revenue. You know, it’s reasonable for me to ask for 100,000 for that one press release, right? Because it’s only 10%. So that’s not that bad. That’s value pricing. And the problem is that most people conflate premium pricing with value pricing. And, and for you to understand how much of, you know, what’s your true value as that event organizer, that would be incredibly difficult because you’d have to spend a lot of time understanding their business model. It would be incredibly difficult. Yep. Yep. And understanding, you know, what’s the difference if someone else is up there speaking instead? Gini Dietrich: And getting the data from them that they’re probably not going to give me. Chip Griffin: Correct. Correct. And so most of the examples, if you, if you read articles or you watch videos about this, most of the people who propose value pricing say you should say to them, okay Ms. Event Organizer how much, how much tickets are, or how many tickets are you going to sell at how much and, you know, how many keynote speakers do you have and how prominent am I going to be in that? And so, okay, so, you know, if I didn’t come, how do you think that would affect your revenue? First of all, most people aren’t going to answer any of those questions for you. That’s right. Even if they could, and a lot of them can’t answer those questions, even at your clients, even if it’s not an event, right? I mean, they just don’t have that access to information. And so if you’re truly going to go down this path, it’s a whole different world. And so I think we need to be really careful about that. We certainly need to make sure that we’re not undercutting ourselves. We don’t want to get into the business of trying to compete with AI. And so saying, well, ChatGPT can do it. So I’m only going to charge you 10 bucks for this press release because I know you could get it for free anyway. That’s not the way to do it. I’m not proposing that, but also, you know, don’t go out there and decide that, you know, you’re now going to charge 10 X for a press release because that’s, that’s how you’re going to protect your bottom line. That is not the way to go. So use it to your advantage. Don’t be afraid of it. And please be thoughtful about changes to your business model. Don’t just do it because, you know, you paid attention to some story about ChatGPT and decided it was the end of your world as you knew it. And so you need something entirely different. Gini Dietrich: No, it’s not. It’s not. You’re right. You’re right. Lots of changes have come that have made us more efficient and has not been the end of our world. Chip Griffin: Not at all. But if you want to trigger me, feel free to write about value pricing and AI, put it together. Gini Dietrich: I kind of feel like I should do something on SpinSucks, just to see. Chip Griffin: So thank you, Chris, for giving us a very passionate topic for us to talk about. And by all means go read his argument. He is a thoughtful guy and, and, you know, there are some points in there that I’m sure you can take away and make your own decision. But my, my view is just don’t do that. So with that, that will draw to an end this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching, a sales training and coaching organization for creative professionals. You can find more information on his website: https://www.blairenns.com/

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching, the sales training organization for creative professionals. He is the author of two books, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. He is the co-host, along with David C. Baker, of the podcast 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship. Best of all, he is the guest on this week's show with Ron and Ed. A good portion of the show will be spend talking about The Innoficiency Principle. Blair laid out the thoughts behind this principle at this link and described it quite succinctly. From Blair: “The Innoficiency Principle states that innovation and efficiency are mutually opposable goals. In any reasonably functioning organization, one cannot be increased without decreasing the other.”

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching, the sales training organization for creative professionals. He is the author of two books, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. He is the co-host, along with David C. Baker, of the podcast 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship. Best of all, he is the guest on this week's show with Ron and Ed. A good portion of the show will be spend talking about The Innoficiency Principle. Blair laid out the thoughts behind this principle at this link and described it quite succinctly. From Blair: “The Innoficiency Principle states that innovation and efficiency are mutually opposable goals. In any reasonably functioning organization, one cannot be increased without decreasing the other.”

Chris Do turned his passion for teaching into a thriving business when he launched The Futur in 2016. Now, he's on a mission to teach 1 billion people how to make money from their passion, and he's sharing his advice with our listeners in this interview. Before starting The Futur, Chris ran a production company called Blind for 12 years. He drew on the business skills he learned in that venture when he founded The Futur, drawing on his experience in design, sales, marketing, and video production to make and sell courses that would help people follow in his footsteps. Even with this experience under his belt, starting a new company wasn't easy. Chris shares the biggest challenges he faced while building The Futur and how he overcame those difficulties to make the business what it is today. We'll also find out how he grew to more than 2 million subscribers on The Futur's YouTube channel, as well as his other advice on how to use social media and other digital marketing to drive business growth. If you want to make a living doing what you love, this interview is a great place to start!Resources:The Futur - Learn more about Chris' business on The Futur's websiteThe Futur on YouTube - Hear more insights about how to make money doing what you love on the Futur YouTube channelGrow a Small Business by Doing These Things - Hear advice from entrepreneur Barry Moltz on how to grow a small business on the UpFlip podcastUpFlip Hub - Start and grow a business from scratch with the step-by-step advice on the UpFlip HubUpFlip Blog - More strategies and tips to start and grow a business on the UpFlip blogThe Win Without Pitching Manifesto - Book by Blair Enns that outlines 12 steps to differentiate a business from its competitorsConnect with UpFlip On Facebook On Instagram @UpFlipOfficial on Twitter For more insights to start, build, or grow a business, check out the resources on UpFlip.com or head to the UpFlip YouTube channel to see more interviews with business owners and experts. Thanks for listening!

On this episode of The Professional Services Pursuit, we are joined by Blair Enns, esteemed author and founder of Win Without Pitching. Our host Brent Tremble joins Blair to discuss the art of winning deals without the need to pitch for a client. The conversation includes valuable insights from his book, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, which has sold over 80,000 copies and garnered more than 1,500 5-star reviews on Amazon.Other topics also discussed in this episode include:Where winning without pitching is applicable to a firmAn “advantaged player” and how that influences a relationshipThe new value-based approach to agency pricingA special giveaway opportunity for those who listen through the entire episode! For more information about the podcast or to enter the giveaway, please contact podcast@kantata.com.Click here to learn more about Blair's company – Win Without PitchingClick here to learn more about Blair's marketing podcast – 20% – The Marketing Procurement PodcastClick here to learn more about Blair's entrepreneurship podcast – 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship

Blair Enns is the Founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, a sales training and coaching organization for creative professionals. He has advised hundreds of design firms, advertising agencies, and other creative authorities on how to deprogram themselves from the standard approach to win new business.  Blair is the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. He is also the co-host of the 2Bobs podcast and 20% - The Marketing Procurement Podcast. In this episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast, John Corcoran interviews Blair Enns, the Founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, about his manifesto for helping companies pitch and win better business deals. They also discuss Blair's specialization principle, tips for having conversations about money, and the secret behind the success of Blair's 2Bobs podcast.

Blair Enns and David C. Baker are highly successful entrepreneurs and authors, as well as hosts of the podcast, 2 Bobs.