Podcast appearances and mentions of David C Baker

David C. Baker recently published a fascinating thought experiment about what he’d do if starting an agency from scratch today—and it’s packed with provocative ideas worth serious consideration. His article offers a comprehensive blueprint covering everything from organizational structure to compensation philosophy, and much of it aligns with how Chip and Gini think about building sustainable agencies. But the most interesting conversations happen when smart people disagree, which is why this episode focuses on the handful of points where Chip and Gini see things differently. Not because Baker’s ideas are bad, but because they expose the tension between aspirational agency management and the messy realities of running a business with real budgets, real people, and real client demands. In this episode, Chip and Gini tackle mandatory one-month sabbaticals for every employee, open-book finances published on your website, 360-degree reviews, and incentive compensation structures. They dig into why ideas that sound compelling in theory often create unintended consequences in practice—like how retention-based bonuses can fuel scope creep, or why forced sabbaticals don’t actually solve the single-point-of-failure problem they’re designed to address. The conversation reveals thoughtful nuance on both sides. Gini shares her brutal experience with anonymous feedback that backfired when presented poorly. Chip explains why he sees most performance measurement systems as “performance theater” while still advocating for more financial transparency with teams. They discuss the logistical nightmares of scheduling multiple month-long absences and why backup systems for unexpected departures matter more than planned time off. Throughout, they return to a central theme: what works brilliantly at one stage of growth can be completely wrong at another. The goal isn’t to declare Baker’s ideas right or wrong, but to test assumptions and recognize that even the most well-intentioned frameworks deserve scrutiny before implementation. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Really to deal with single points of failure, you need to be able to handle those unexpected absences, right? Someone has a family emergency, someone has a health issue. Those are the kinds of things that you wanna make sure you’ve handled.” Gini Dietrich: “When you’re constantly slacking or texting or calling while on vacation, and we don’t give you a response, it makes people angry. But what I’m trying to do is give you the time off because you deserve it and I want you to come back refreshed and ready to work.” Chip Griffin: “When you have incentive compensation, whether that is commissions or for hitting profit targets, the problem that you run into is people tend to focus on the thing that gets them the commission. It doesn’t mean that it’s good revenue. It doesn’t mean that it’s profitable.” Gini Dietrich: “I subscribe to give ongoing feedback. You get feedback consistently. And when we’re in a meeting and I see something that you did really great or I see something that could use some work, I tell you that immediately.” Turn Ideas Into Action Read Baker’s full article and identify your three favorites. Don’t just focus on the disagreements—pull out the ideas that resonate most with your vision for your agency and commit to implementing one of them this quarter. The value in thought experiments like this isn’t picking sides, but using them to clarify what you actually want to build. Spend 30 minutes reading, then schedule time to test one concept that genuinely excites you. Identify your true single points of failure. List every critical role in your agency, then honestly assess what would happen if that person disappeared tomorrow without warning. Focus on unexpected absences—not planned sabbaticals—because those expose the real vulnerabilities. For each critical role, document who could cover the basics for 1-2 weeks while you figure out a longer-term solution. This takes less than an hour and protects you better than mandatory vacation policies. Replace annual reviews with ongoing feedback. If you currently do annual or 360-degree reviews, shift to giving immediate feedback when you observe something—positive or negative. Make it a two-sentence conversation: “That client presentation was excellent because you anticipated their objections” or “When you miss that deadline without communication, it creates problems for the team.” Save annual conversations for compensation changes and goal-setting, not for dumping a year’s worth of stored-up feedback all at once. Resources David C. Baker’s article If I Started A New Firm, Now Related Starting your own agency Should you force employees to take time off? Setting your agency's PTO, vacation, and leave policies Employee compensation essentials for agencies View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, we’re going back to a place that we’ve used for inspiration before. And no, I’m not talking about Reddit this time. Oh, I’m, I’m sorry. Dear listeners, this is not one of our Reddit episodes. Gini Dietrich: I, I’m always scared of the Reddit episodes. Chip Griffin: The Reddit episodes are always, they’re interesting. We’ll leave it at that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I saw one the other day that I was like, oh boy, okay. In the real world… Chip Griffin: Sometimes I just, I read those posts in the, in the agency subreddit, and I just, I wonder if, if they’re actual, real people posting about real stuff, because some of it just seems so insane that it just couldn’t be real. Gini Dietrich: Yes. And some of it is very junior level entitled frustrations who don’t understand how a business operates. And so some of it you’re just like, Ugh. Okay. Chip Griffin: Yep. But I mean, we were all once those people sort of a little bit Gini Dietrich: Fair, true. Chip Griffin: At one point in time. Gini Dietrich: Yes. So absolutely. Chip Griffin: But that is not what this episode is. We are going to use another source of inspiration for us that we’ve used in the past, and that is David C. Baker. And, in this case, he had a post in his newsletter recently about what he would do if he was starting his own agency today. And it’s a lengthy article that walks through all of the different choices, that he would make strategically and tactically for the business. And there’s a lot of good food for thought in there. It’s, mm-hmm. It’s probably gonna inspire a few additional episodes, down the road as we dig deeper into some of the specific topics there. But, one of the things that I did on LinkedIn was I broke out into four buckets, my perspective on it, and broke it into things that I agree with, things that I agreed to disagree with. It depends because, hey, that’s our motto here, so why not? It does depend. Yes. Yep. And then of course, food for thought. So, there are far too many points for us to cover in a reasonably length podcast episode. So. I figured why not be controversial? Let’s deal with the disagrees that I had on my list and, use that as our jumping off point. And we’ll of course include a link to the article in the show notes that you can go read the full article as well as additional context around what we’re gonna talk about today because there is a lot to, to explore here. Gini Dietrich: And I think the buckets that you, you broke it into are really good. And for the most part I agree with how you’ve compartmentalized them all. But there are some interesting ones on the agree to disagree bucket. So let’s, let’s do that. Let’s start there. Chip Griffin: Alright. Do you have, do you have one that you would like to start with or do you want me to just start calling ones out? Gini Dietrich: Let’s see. Yeah, there’s, well, yes I do. That we require one month annual sabbatical to eliminate single points of failure. Sounds lovely. I would also like a one month sabbatical every year. Chip Griffin: It’s as, as I understood the article, and it is possible, I misunderstood the intent in the article, but as I understood it, he was suggesting that every year, every employee. Gini Dietrich: Everyone. Yes. Chip Griffin: Had to take a full one month sabbatical. Gini Dietrich: Yes. That’s how I read it as well. Chip Griffin: That is, I mean, it’s a nice idea. I think it is highly impractical for most organizations. And look, I think the, stated intent here is truly a good one, which is to avoid those single points of failure, over reliance on any individual team member. Yeah. ’cause this is a giant problem for agencies, honestly, of most sizes until you get to be giant. But it is something that, that you need to be conscious of. I don’t know that you need a full one month sabbatical for every employee every year in order to get there. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I mean, truth be told, like if you’re designing in the agency of the future and you’re starting from scratch today, I don’t know how you do that. I mean, to your point, even in a large organization, I don’t know that how, you do that because it costs a lot of money. Not just resources and time, but it costs money to have people out. And so, you know, if you’re a, you’re an agency of three people or you’re an agency of 50 people, or you’re an agency of hundreds of people, it still costs money. And so requiring that I think is a bit too much. And also, I will say that as somebody who has an extraordinary flexible and generous paid time off plan. There are people who take advantage of those things and you have to adjust to that, unfortunately. And I just don’t think it’s realistic. I don’t think it’s something that you could actually do. I don’t think it’s something you could enforce. I think it would be extraordinarily stressful for the person and for their team, even though it might be nice in writing. I don’t think it’s, realistic in practice. Chip Griffin: Well, I, think you, I mean, you, have a number of logistical issues that come into play here in addition to everything else. And particularly because one of the other, tenants in there that I, disagreed with was, that you would require all employees to take four one week vacations. Over the course of the year. So now you’ve, essentially got all employees out for two out of 12 months. Gini Dietrich: Two outta 12 months. Yes. Chip Griffin: And, that is logistically challenging because how do you do this and make sure that you don’t have too much overlap because inevitably there are certain times where people are going to prefer to do this. I mean, absolutely. If you want to take a one month sabbatical, most people are probably gonna want to do that over the summer months. Yes. When perhaps, you know, family members have access to vacation or those sorts of things. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Or they may want it end of year around the holidays and those kinds of things. So you, have collisions between people wanting the same time. If, they, can’t get what they want now, they may be frustrated that I gotta, you know, I have to take off a month in February. What good is that gonna do me? I mean, it’s cold, it’s snowy outside. My family can’t take the time off. My significant other won’t go. Like, Gini Dietrich: yeah, Chip Griffin: so what am I just gonna sit around in my house all day for the month. so I think there are some logistical challenges. So I guess what I, this is one of those ones where I’d say the ideal is nice. I’m not sure that it is practical to implement in the vast majority of firms. I would encourage instead that owners look and try to identify single points of failure and make sure that you have backups. Yes, yes. And frankly, those are important, whether you have someone taking a month off or a week off. And my view is that every employee should have a backup who can at least do the, minimum required for that role while they’re out. Particularly if they’re out suddenly, right? Because being able to plan for it. You’ve got a sabbatical, it’s on the calendar, six months ahead of time. You can get some stuff done early, you can push off some deadlines. There’s a lot of things you can do, but really to deal with single points of failure, you need to be able to handle those unexpected absences, right? Someone has a family emergency, someone has a health issue. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Someone gets an opportunity to go on a game show, I don’t know, whatever it is, that takes them away suddenly. Those are the kinds of things that you wanna make sure you’ve, handled, with single points of failure. So. Nice idea. I just, I, don’t think it’s practical for most firms. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And the other thing I’ll say on the single point of failure piece is one of the things that I experience as an agency owner quite often is that my certain members of my team will take time off, but they can’t… They can’t allow themselves to take time off. So they’re constantly checking in and they’re constantly asking for updates and they’re constantly, and so one of the things I do with them is. You know, ensure A, that you have some backup, and B, that when you’re asking for updates or you’re constantly slacking or texting or calling, that we don’t, we don’t give you a response. And, it makes people angry. But what I’m trying to do is A, give you the time off because you deserve it and, I want you to come back refreshed and ready to work. And B, well, I’ll say C. Actually there’s three, three things, B there, nothing’s going to burn down while one person is out because we have backup and we do have places where there is not a single point of entry. And lastly, it’s really demeaning to your team, like it’s demeaning. And even me as the owner sometimes I’m like, well, don’t you trust me to fall to take care of your clients while you’re gone? Like, come on, seriously. Right. That’s how it makes you feel. So I would say that it’s important from a single point of entry perspective as well to ensure that on the opposite side, that the team feels comfortable taking time off, that they don’t feel angst about taking the time off, that they can take the time off, and that the team behind them is, feels empowered and ready and trusted to do the work. Chip Griffin: Spot on. Alright, well there’s, there’s a lot on this list. So let’s move on to, to something different. How about we talk about open book finances, because this is, one that, I, will say that I disagree with an asterisk. So I, what he’s advocating in his piece is open book finances, including public disclosure of finances on the agency’s website. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: So, and in general, I am not a fan of full open book either internal or external. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: However, I do believe that most agency owners would be better off being more transparent than they currently are with their teams. That doesn’t mean being complete open book, but it does mean at a minimum, sharing with them more specifically the trends that are going on with the agency. You know, Even if you take actual numbers out, I like to show charts that show the directionality of revenue, the directionality of expenses. You know, so that you can kind of see those mapped up against each other so that as an employee, you start to understand more about the fundamentals of the business. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And it starts to make you less surprised when you’re seeing growth and less surprised when you’re seeing, you know, a narrowing of the gap, say, between revenue and expenses. So therefore, profit is shrinking. I, think that there does need to be more communication about that with, as I always say, education. You can never provide numbers, whether that’s percentages or charts or actual numbers to your team without helping them to understand the economics of the business. Because otherwise you’re just giving them numbers that they will interpret however they want. But I do think the smarter you make your team about these things, the better they can help to manage project budgets, the better and more realistic they can be about compensation and bonuses. All of these things, information helps, but not in my view all the way to full open books, either internal and certainly not external. No, definitely not. I don’t see enough upside doing it external. Gini Dietrich: Definitely. I, can’t imagine doing it externally because all that does is open up the, an invitation for your clients to say, well, you don’t really need to be that profitable, so let’s, take some, let’s take a percentage off like the No, no, no, no, no. And I also think, if I read it correct, his article correctly, he was advocating for open book on everyone’s salaries too. And no, I mean, we do salary bands, but you, do not know exactly how much every person makes. That’s not, that does not contribute to any sort of morale building inside a culture. Absolutely not. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, the only thing I will say to that is that, I, agree with you. However, the reality is that most people have a pretty good idea of what everybody else in the business except the owner is making anyway. And perhaps other select senior level people depending on, how your organization is structured. But pretty much all the juniors know what all every other junior makes. They all talk. Gini Dietrich: Well, and that’s why we have salary bands ’cause everybody pretty much makes the same Chip Griffin: right Gini Dietrich: amount. Right? Like they all make the same, but I’m still not publishing it. Chip Griffin: Exactly. And salary bands, you know, protect you. On that. And so, I mean, you could make the, case as long as you have tight salary bans. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Disclosure actually isn’t a problem. But you know, I don’t, I think as long as you have salary bands, you don’t need that. Obviously a lot of states are in here in the US are now requiring more disclosure around salary bands and that kind of stuff. So, you know, we’re headed there as an industry one way or the other. but I do think that salary bands are probably sufficient and, we don’t need to share actual salaries with team members. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Chip Griffin: You know, that said, I will say that all of your employees think you make far more than you do. We’ve talked about this before, so there may actually be an upside for, most owners to share what their actual take home is because Gini Dietrich: that like 10 people actually make more than I do. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of agencies where the owner is making less than team members. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Which is wild to me, but. Gini Dietrich: There’s also the upside on that though, if, you’re profitable and you make enough money at the end of the year, you get, you get that. But yes, from a salary perspective. Chip Griffin: Right, right. Alright, how about, 360s? My, one of my pet peeves. I consider it performance theater. I think most KPIs and OKRs and all these things, I think it’s all performance theater. I think it has very little to do with what actual performance outcomes you get from your team. But, 360s, you know, they’ve been popular for a couple of decades now. I don’t understand them. You know, I’ve been in organizations that, have done them. I will confess that, that, you know, at various points in time, my own businesses have experimented with them, and most of the feedback that you get from them is borderline worthless. Because most of it falls into the category of nobody wants to say anything really bad about anything else, it’s, you know, at worst it’s lukewarm. But then of course, you always get the random ones who just, they have an ax to grind Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And they’re gonna use the 360 Yep. As their way to grind an ax against a colleague. Yep. Or, or another department. Yep. Or whatever. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And I, I’ve yet to see any, that actually helps to provide good feedback from the employees to the owner themselves. That’s just, I mean, you can tell people it’s anonymous. You can use an outside advisor to organize it, but people are not gonna put in writing. Even if they think it’s anonymous, any perspective about the owner, it just, it doesn’t happen in, the real world. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I agree with you. The only time I’ve, and it this happened to me, the only time I’ve seen it be effective is I, early in my agency life, business life, I hired somebody externally to do interviews. It was all anonymous, it was all verbal, nothing was recorded, and people were absolutely brutal. And the way he presented it to me made me so defensive that I couldn’t take even the kernels of feedback that I needed to hear. And there was some in there, but it was so brutal. And he, the way, and he presented it, I, in retrospect, I think he embellished some of it to make me, I, to make it like more jarring and alarming. Because he thought that that would make me wake up and pay attention. And in fact, it had the opposite effect. It was not, not good at all. And then I didn’t feel good about the people I had hired. Because it was, it was brutal. So I agree that, they’re not great. I subscribe to the give feedback, ongoing feedback. And so I don’t do annual reviews, I don’t do 360 reviews. You get feedback consistently. And when we’re in a meeting and I see something that you did really great or I see something that could use some work, I tell you that immediately. When I’m trying, when I want to coach you on something, I do that immediately and I ask my team to do the same with their team. So there’s, we have the ongoing feedback and then the annual review, quote unquote, is, Hey. We met our goals, we did really, really well. Here’s a raise, or you know what? This year was shitty and it sucked. You did your part in trying to make it better. I’m gonna give you a cost of living raise or whatever it happens to be, right? But it’s not a, here’s all the shitty things that your clients say, and here’s all the shitty things that your colleagues say and more about, I, you already know that you’re doing a great job in these areas. You already know that these are areas that need to be worked on, and we just continue to move forward. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I’ll say from, an owner trying to get, you know, feedback and perspective from the team there. You know, you, I wouldn’t do it through a, you know, a normal 360 review process, but you know, what, you’ve described part of it, I think the, whoever you hired got it right in having, you know, very anonymous conversations with team members. And I think that bringing an outside advisor who has those kinds of conversations, nothing in writing, it’s just it, you know, it’s dialogue back and forth. I do those for my clients from time to time. I’ll be honest, I, you know, I would say it’s maybe 50/50 whether I feel like I’m truly getting candid feedback. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: from the team members, because usually I don’t have any prior relationship with them, so they don’t know whether they truly can trust me or not. But you know, it’s, I mean, even 50% in most cases is enough to start, you know, pulling some common threads. But the whole, the way you use that information as an outside advisor, the way you present that. Matters a lot. And so you need to really understand how is it gonna land best with the owner that has hired you. And is that by being blunt, is that by sort of internalizing the knowledge and sometimes I’ll just use it in my ongoing conversations to try to steer things. Yes. To address some of that feedback. Sure. Without even explicitly saying, well, Gini Dietrich: yes, Chip Griffin: you know, the whole team said you’re very bad at X, Y, and Z. Gini Dietrich: Brutal. Chip Griffin: But instead, try to find other ways Yes. To, achieve the same outcome, because then the team starts to feel like it was useful to talk with me, and the owner then starts to feel good about the way the team starts to pull together and all that kind of stuff. But it, is, delicate and, I would say that, you know, the, typical 360 process where it tends to be, you know, written survey feedback form type things, I, just, I think that’s, it’s very difficult to see that working in most cases and in my own experience, it has rarely worked out, the way people would like it to. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, totally agree. Chip Griffin: All right. let’s see. We have time probably for at least one more, or maybe just one more here from the list. I don’t know if there’s something that, that jumps out at you that you would like to have, covered. Gini Dietrich: Let me look, let me look. Uh, maybe we can mush board of advisors and direct access to CEO together. Chip Griffin: Sure. Although they’re, well no, because the direct access to CEO is the CEO of the client. Gini Dietrich: Oh, oh, got it, got it, got it. Chip Griffin: So they, they are, they are separate issues. Got it. But I, mean, I think either, either board of advisors, the other one I would throw out there is a possible one is the, tying all, employee comp to have an incentive component. Oh, yeah. I, think either one of those would be good. So I’ll let you pick between board of advisors or employee comp. Gini Dietrich: Employee comp. Chip Griffin: So, this is, this is one of my pet peeves. And I’m sure that David doesn’t know this, and, if he did that… Gini Dietrich: Ha! He wrote it just because he knew it was your pet peeve. Chip Griffin: But, but his argument was that every employee should have at least some of their compensation effectively at risk as part of a, an incentive compensation plan. And I hate this idea. I hate formulaic, incentive-based compensation for virtually all employees. And I’ll be controversial here, it doesn’t really apply to most agencies, but I don’t think it should apply to most sales reps either. Because I think that when you have incentive compensation, whether that is commissions or for hitting profit targets or you know, other things, the problem that you run into is people tend to the extent that they pay attention to it at all. Right? So. You’ve got a couple of risks here. One is that you’re paying people for things they don’t even care about. Right? Right. You know, I mean, I’ve had sales reps they were gonna sell or not sell, and it had nothing to do with the commission they were getting. Gini Dietrich: Fair. Chip Griffin: Now that’s rare. Most sales reps are incented by their commission and, so they will try harder to get it, but what are they doing? They’re, focused on the thing that gets them the commission, which is the actual signature on the contract and the revenue. It doesn’t mean that it’s good revenue. It doesn’t mean that it’s profitable. It doesn’t mean that it’s a good client. It doesn’t mean you can get results for them. It doesn’t mean any of those things. And you’re now creating tension because if you have more than one sales rep, nobody wants to help each other because then they gotta split the commission. And so, but this goes beyond, you know, sales and other ways of doing incentive compensation. You still have, it’s very difficult to craft a plan. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: That doesn’t have unintended consequences. Yeah. And particularly when you’re outside of the sales realm, my experience is that most employees are not truly motivated to hit specific targets for their incentive comp. They’re either gonna do a good job or they’re not. And it has nothing to do with you saying if you hit this target, you’ll get a little bit extra. But to the extent that it is, it does have those unintended consequences because now they’re fixated on, I mean, let’s say it’s client retention. So now what if, if you’ve got a client retention target and if you have a client retention over 85%, you get a bonus. Sounds great. Right? Because we’re, retaining clients. Except that what are we doing to retain those clients? Right? Oftentimes that means we’re going to go way down the, rabbit hole of scope creep. Yep. And, we’re just gonna be giving them all sorts of freebies to keep them around. And so those are the things we need to think about. And it’s, why in general, I’m opposed to all forms of incentive comp. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, one of the things that we do do is we say you can earn up to a certain percentage of your salary in bonus. It’s the end of year bonus. And here are the, gates, like revenue, profitability, all the things. But most of it is not reliant on the individual. Most of it’s reliant on the company as a whole. And so we all have to work together to achieve those goals. And then they sort of know like, okay, well this, this is where we are, so I’m gonna make 90% of that percentage or whatever it happens to be. So they are they are clear about those kinds of things and they tend, because of that, they tend to ask… They tend to be more engaged and ask more strategic questions about work, and they’re more thoughtful about it. But to your point, we don’t reward scope creep. We don’t reward, you know, keeping a client longer than we should. Those kinds of things. Those, like, we take those pieces out. So we, do it based on, we don’t do it commission or incentive based, but we do do it based on a certain percentage of your salary if we meet certain objectives as an organization. Chip Griffin: I mean, that’s better, but I’ll be honest, I still don’t like it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It works for us. It’s highly motivating for us. Chip Griffin: And that’s, the thing. I mean, the, as we say at the end of every, episode, it depends. So even these things where Gini Dietrich: mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: You know, we may disagree, you know, where David has different ideas than we do, that doesn’t mean that, that none of them can work in your agency. Right. and I think that it’s, that’s a point that, that he made in a LinkedIn conversation that, that we had, recently as well. You know, some of these may be good ideas, some of them may be bad ideas. Some of them may be good ideas, but you know, wrong place, wrong time or wrong agency, wrong time. And, some of these ideas are good at different stages of the lifecycle of even your own agency. So something that works when you have two employees may not work when you have 20 or 200. Right. And so, you know, I just, I, love articles like this though, because it gives you that food for thought. It makes you think, it makes you, you know, to test your assumptions. You know that I’m a huge, advocate of curiosity generally. And so, you know, making you think about things is helpful. And so hopefully we’ve made you think just as David made us think. And, so we, appreciate that and, we hope that we’ve given you those insights here that may help you think through decisions for your own agency. And of course, you know, check out the full article for many, many more ideas beyond what we were able to cover today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. It was a really good, really good article. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. So thank you all for joining us. That will conclude this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

Despite the fact that many entrepreneurs hate people telling them what to do, they end up running their own agencies using a "central planning" model. Instead, David encourages entrepreneurial leaders to set clear standards, give staff more freedom, and institute kind accountability, for them and ourselves.   Links "Countering Your 'Central Planning' Tendencies" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair interviews David about a recent article in which he argues that the very traits that make entrepreneurs successful also make it hard for them to give up being their own boss and join someone else's company.   LINKS "What Makes Entrepreneurs Unemployable" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

In this episode, inspired by a newsletter from David C. Baker, Chip and Gini discuss the authentic motivations and realities behind agency mission statements and values. They emphasize that many agencies publish values that are either not reflective of their true operations or are overly broad and similar to others. The hosts stress the importance of being honest about the core purpose of a business and aligning public statements with actual behavior. They argue that values should stem from the owner’s true beliefs and actions rather than aspirational ideals. They also caution against spending too much time wordsmithing values for marketing purposes, as clients are more interested in results. The conversation touches on the impact of leadership behavior on agency culture and the pitfalls of misrepresenting agency values. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “The reality is for most agency owners, your mission is to make money for yourself as the owner, to give yourself flexibility to do what you want, when you want. And all of the other things are side benefits of it. You are not running a not-for-profit.” Gini Dietrich: “It’s okay for you to make money. It’s okay for you to be profitable.” Chip Griffin: “Your values are not something that you establish. They’re something that come from your behavior and the behavior of your team and the activities and the clients that you take on.” Gini Dietrich: “You can’t say it because that’s what you want or that’s what you aspire to. You have to be living it.” Resources David C. Baker’s article We're Better than this Value Washing Related Be an agency leader that people want to work for View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And, you know, I wanna talk about the, the mission of this podcast and Okay. What we’re trying to achieve. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Our values, talk about values Chip Griffin: and all of the values that I hold, hold dear that I’m sure you do as well. Mm-hmm. That, that we want to embrace. Mm-hmm. As podcast hosts and purely doing this entirely out of the goodness of our hearts for our community, there’s no marketing benefit to us. There’s no thought leadership benefit. It’s all about you, the listener, and how much free stuff we can give you. Gini Dietrich: I mean, some of it is, but yes, we do get value from it. Chip Griffin: I mean the, the reality is I probably would just come on and talk anyway, even if I wasn’t doing what I’m doing for a business. ’cause it’s just fun. Gini Dietrich: It’s fun. I agree. Chip Griffin: But the reality is, I mean, you, you gotta have some real motivation behind it and it, and for this podcast, it’s marketing our respective brands, both personal and business, and sharing our insights. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: As an agency you also have mission, values, and purpose. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: But I can pretty much guarantee you that it’s not aligned with what you’re publishing and sharing with prospects, putting on your website, including in your proposals and all this kind of stuff. And this, this discussion is inspired by an article in David c Baker’s newsletter where he talked about value washing and, and he touched on a, a bit of this, you know, agencies and, and how they present their values. But I want to go further than that because I’m particularly cantankerous today. And I just, I, I kind of get sick to my stomach when I see these, you know, missions and value statements and all that kind of stuff that agencies just love to put out there. Because the reality is for most agency owners, your mission is to make money for yourself as the owner, to give yourself flexibility to do what you want, when you want, from a time commitment standpoint. And all of the other things are side benefits of it. You are not running a not-for-profit. Unless you are a nepo baby with a trust fund, you’re not sitting there purely doing good for others. You have to do good for yourself too. But I gotta tell you, I have yet to see a mission statement for an agency that says anything about that. Gini Dietrich: I’ll share mine ’cause it does. Chip Griffin: Do you publish it publicly though? Gini Dietrich: No, I was gonna say now it’s not public, it’s not on the website, but like internally, everybody, especially on the leadership team, they know exactly what we’re driving toward. They know exactly, and it is not, I mean sure like ethical PR and cri, like doing good from a reputation standpoint and those things for sure. But our mission is to become the best and biggest consulting firm that implements PESO. Well, truth be told, the only one, ’cause nobody else can do it, right? Because we own the copyright. But that, that is our mission. Like that’s what we’re working to achieve. And so, and, and we wanna work with the best and the brightest organizations in the world to do that. That’s our mission. Is it published on our website? Absolutely not. Do our, does our internal team know? Yes. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, look, I, I think the problem is that we need to start by being honest with ourselves as agency leaders about why we exist and what we’re doing. And it’s fine to want to do some of the nice stuff as part of it. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yes. Chip Griffin: But, but it has to start with an acknowledgement of what the core purpose of the business is. And when you start pretending that it’s that that’s not what it is, that’s where I start to have an issue. And then we start looking at what’s actually said publicly by most agencies about their mission and purpose and all of that. And most of it is so broad, so vanilla, so similar to what everybody else is saying, that it, it’s, it doesn’t really serve a purpose. And I know I’ve, I’ve been part of, of agency conversations where there are, are deep, thoughtful, ongoing conversations about mission, values and purpose. Why? Why? And none of that means that you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t have, you know, a general ambition, an ethical framework, all of those kinds of things. Sure. Yes. But you don’t need to burn a lot of time on it. Gini Dietrich: No. Chip Griffin: And you don’t need to work on wordsmithing it to share with prospects, because I’m gonna let you in on a little secret, your prospects don’t care. Gini Dietrich: They don’t care. Chip Griffin: They are not hiring you because of all of these things that you say, they, they don’t really care. They care about the results you’re getting and how much it costs them. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: That’s the only two things they care about. Gini Dietrich: Yes. I just had this very conversation Chip Griffin: and as side benefit that you’re decent to work with. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Of course. That they like that you have chemistry and they like working with you. Yeah. Like they wanna show up, be able to show up to meetings with you and humans like other humans, you know? Right, right. I just had this very conversation with a client because she was stressing about her clients and some changes, and I was like, listen, they don’t care. They don’t care. As long as the work gets done, they’re still getting the same results or better. They don’t care. So. Let’s, I, I understand you’re worried about it. I understand you’re stress, but let’s put that stress somewhere else because this bucket, they don’t care about. As long as you communicate it, the work still gets done. They’re still getting the results that they expect. You’re fine. Let’s put the stress somewhere else. So, as an aside, but I agree with you, like, most of us go into business for ourselves because we know there’s a better way to do it and we wanna make more money. And for me, I have a problem with authority. So. And there may be others that, that feel that as well. Chip Griffin: I think, I think a lot of, of business owners and entrepreneurs are unemployable for that very reason. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Yes. So that that’s why we own businesses and there’s nothing wrong with that. For now, we live in a capitalist country where you can actually make money and it’s okay. It’s okay for you to make money. It’s okay for you to be profitable. It’s okay. Chip Griffin: And, and I mean, profit itself is not a dirty word. Gini Dietrich: No, it’s a great word. I love it. Chip Griffin: There’s a fair argument to be had about is there, is there a point where the profit is too much? Where the compensation is too much? That it, it, it’s a, it’s a worthy debate to have at some point, but I can guarantee you that 99.999999999% of small agency owners don’t need to worry about that. Gini Dietrich: And don’t have enough profit, Chip Griffin: probably a hundred percent, but I’m just being holding open the possibility that there’s just some small agency out there that you know is, is really just rolling in it. Gini Dietrich: And I will add that you probably 99.9999999999% of agencies don’t make enough profit. 5% profit is not enough. Break even is not enough. 10% is not enough. Chip Griffin: Well, particularly when that profit doesn’t even include the owner’s compensation. But that’s an argument that, Gini Dietrich: right. Chip Griffin: That we’ve had ad nauseum on, on this show and that I have ad nauseum with clients as well who, who like to count the profit while paying themselves zero zero. Right. And your profit margin, that does not count. That does not count. But I mean, you know, I, I think we also need to be mindful of the fact that a lot of the, the missions, values, and purpose kind of things that I see out there do not conform to how the agency even operates. So not only are you starting from a point where you’re not acknowledging what your real objectives are, but what you do say may not reflect the reality. And it’s this, this goes along with, you know, when I get asked by agency owners, you know, how do I create an agency culture of X, Y, or Z? What do I need to do to establish this culture? And, and my first piece of advice is always, well, that’s what you need to do first, right? You need to actually be echoing what you’re saying. You need, it needs to reflect what you’re doing, how you behave personally, and that establishes the culture. You don’t say that we have a culture of X, Y, or Z. You don’t say that we have these values and then assume that they just, you know, take root. Your values come about because of what you and your team are actually currently doing internally and externally. Right. It needs to reflect what it is. You can say you want to change it for the future, but it should never be, your value statement should never be an ambition. It should be an accurate reflection of what the reality is. And if you don’t like that reflection of reality, Gini Dietrich: right, then you have to make, Chip Griffin: figure out what you need to change. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. I’m sure I’ve told this story before, but I… As I mentioned, I have a problem with authority and sometimes that includes clients, not often, but occasionally. And we had a client who we loved their marketing team. We loved their chief marketing officer. She’s great. She and I are still friends. She actually lives down the street. Their CEO though was not a good guy. And I remember him coming to a meeting with us unexpected. He, he was not expected to be there, and he shows up to this meeting because he’s mad that the website copy doesn’t reflect the culture that he wants. And I had this conversation with him about it. He’s like, well, I want to like demonstrate that we do rooftops for Cubs games on Friday afternoons and we have a beer cart and like all of these things. And I was like, but do you do that? And he’s like, well, no, I expect them to work 12 hours a day. We don’t do that. And I was like, well, we can’t say that and then not have you with that. And he, I, we actually ended up parting ways with that client be because of this. Because he would not, I mean, he got very aggressive and unprofessional with me about it, but I wouldn’t step down either because I was like, no, like you can’t, you can’t say. And he kept saying, but then we’ll get the brightest and the best that come in and wanna work here. And I was like, yeah. And then they’ll leave because all the things you promised them aren’t true. And he just, we, he and I could not, and we were butting heads big time. But I think you’re right. Like you can’t. You have to live the culture that you want to demonstrate, that you wanna talk about, that you wanna publicly put on your website before you can actually do those things. And if you, you’re absolutely right too, that if, if you want to have a culture where you do rooftops for Cubs games every Friday afternoon or when they’re in town, or you have a beer cart or wherever it happens to be, great. Do those things first and then you can start to talk about it. Chip Griffin: And, and I would also, I would go so far as to say that in a lot of agencies when I look at their published list of values or whatever, that a lot of times, not all the time, but a lot of times those are actually some of their biggest weaknesses. So when I see an agency that talks about how they value their team members, to your point, there’s a better than even chance that they’ve got some team morale issues. And they’re trying to spin it for themselves and make them feel like, you know, we, we are actually valuing it, but they’re not doing the things that they need to do in order to actually achieve that. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Another pet peeve of mine and, and all, I, I would say this one is more often than not, when I see an agency’s website talk about the importance of ethics, that is almost always a red flag for me. Because I think the vast majority of the time that I’ve seen anything about ethical behavior, there’s a, a really, really strong chance that there is some variety of unethical behavior taking place. Gini Dietrich: I agree. Yes, I agree with you. Chip Griffin: And it’s definitely in the category of me thinks you doth protest too much. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Yes. I absolutely think you’re right. Yeah. I have a theory about that, which I will not share here, but yes, I agree with you. That’s, that is definitely what’s happening. Yeah. It’s kind of like when you read job descriptions and it says things like, energetic employee candidates that don’t mind long hours. Like, you know, and you start to read between the lines where it’s like, we want 22 year olds who we can’t afford to pay and we expect to work 12 hours a day. And like, those are the things to read between the lines. Right? Yeah. Those are the kinds of things that you, that I, I think people are getting really smart too in these days where, especially Gen Z, they’re like, yeah, I’m, I’m not putting up with that. I understand what you’re trying to say. And so I, I think, you know, just when, and we’re from my perspective as a communicator and I from, that’s the lens I look at things like if you’re going to communicate something, you have to absolutely live it. You can’t say it because that’s what you want or that’s what you aspire to. You have to be living it. Chip Griffin: And you’ve just given me a great idea for a future episode, it would be fun to just take a blind list of job descriptions, job listings. Gini Dietrich: Oh, we should totally do that. Chip Griffin: in the agency world and, and translate for people what what is actually being said there, because it’s sort of like real estate listings. You know, when it, when it says cozy, it means super tiny. Gini Dietrich: Right? Chip Griffin: When it says lots of potential, it means it would fail every code inspection possible. And, and there are a lot of those kinds of things that I do see in agency job descriptions that, that immediately tell you, this is a sweatshop. Yep. You, you are, this is gonna be a miserable place, or Gini Dietrich: we really don’t value our employees. Chip Griffin: Right. Or, or, you know, your role here is to sit down, shut up, and do exactly what you’re told. Yep. And there are a lot of things in job descriptions that often make it pretty clear what’s really going on. And it’s usually because they ran some past employee into the ground and they said, well, the way we’re gonna solve this is we’re just gonna tell them what they need to do upfront. And they don’t ever look in the mirror to see if their management style, if their behavior as, as leaders, as owners, as whatever contributed to it. And so, your values are not something that you establish. They’re something that, that come from your behavior and the behavior of your team and the activities and the clients that you take on, right? And, and you can’t be putting things out there that don’t reflect reality because people figure it out and it just makes it worse. So if you say that, you know, you’re looking for a diverse workforce and you don’t actually have one, that’s a problem. And I think David C. Baker specifically, I forget whether it was the same newsletter or a different one, where he singled out agencies that talk about a diverse workforce, but then you look and they, they have diversity in some ways, but not others. Gini Dietrich: It’s all, it’s all white young women. Chip Griffin: They all think alike. And, and, and that’s not, that’s not what you are actually, you, you’re saying something that doesn’t reflect reality. And so you need to understand why that is and whether perhaps you should make a different claim. Perhaps it’s not something that you want to actually make a claim about anymore. Perhaps you need to change your behavior so that it, you know, more closely mirrors it what there are things that you need to do. But the, the bottom line for me is just that so much of this is rubbish out there and so much of it doesn’t reflect reality. And so much of it is a wish that is, is not rooted in what is actually going on. And if we do not understand what our actual mission, values, and purpose are as a business, we have no business making public claims that don’t back that up. Gini Dietrich: Right. Absolutely. And I think that you, you started to make this point, but I think it’s incredibly important for us as agency owners to understand that the values are derived from us personally, because we are the ones who are driving all of that. So if you are, if you are living things that you believe are important, that’s going to come across whether or not you put it in writing, right? So. I think that’s, I think it’s really important for us to remember that. And if your values, if you’re trying to create a value for the agency that you may not mirror or don’t agree with, it’s not gonna work. It’s just not going to work. So really understand that until you get to a certain size, and I would say it’s big, like it’s not 20 employees. It’s big lots and lots and lots of employees. Your values are derived from you personally. And that’s what you have. If you’re going to be thinking about this and you’re going to be publishing values and you’re going to say to your team, these are our values, really look inward to understand what your values are and what you stand for, because that’s what’s going to drive the, the business as well. Chip Griffin: And again, it’s what you actually stand for, not what you wish or hope, Gini Dietrich: right. Chip Griffin: That you stood for. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And, and I think that’s where we often get lost. Because we wanna sit down and we wanna put down a list of values of, of things that we aspire to. But that is very different from what, what we’re actually doing now in most cases. Yep. There, there are times where we’ve already reached all our aspirations. Fine. Okay. If, if that’s you, kudos to you. You’re not, you don’t need to listen anymore of this episode. If you are like most of us, where you have aspirations that are beyond where you are at today, you need to understand where you’re at today first. Yes. And you need to acknowledge that and work from that basis. And, and to your point, it all does start with the owner. Yep. I would say. Even in the largest independently owned agencies. So we’ll take the holding companies out of it, but Yep. But if you found the largest independently owned, no matter how many hundreds of employees they may have, it still is derived from the owner themselves. And the reason for that is because what you model for your behavior, your direct reports will then model to their direct reports. That’s right. And so on. That’s right. And so if you are a micromanager, there’s a better than even chance that your own managers are gonna be micromanagers because it’s what they see. It’s what they believe is expected of them. Yep. And particularly in the agency world, in the small agency world where most managers don’t have any real experience before their current management role that you’ve given them, they will absolutely mirror your behavior. So if you yell at them, they’ll yell at their team members. If you’re inspiring, they’re more likely to be inspiring. Yep. You’ve got to be looking in the mirror more often and, and understanding that and not putting out all of this stuff that just, you know, reads like traditional marketing speak about your own business. Because nobody cares at all, but nobody cares, particularly if it’s not accurate. Gini Dietrich: You know what I will challenge everyone to do and it won’t take you very long, but take all of the URLs for the websites of the agencies that you admire and, and then your own, and throw them into AI, your AI tool choice, and ask it to create a chart of what the values are. And what they, what, which, what, what each agency says they deliver. And have the AI create a chart so you can see side by side comparisons. And I will guarantee you, to your point Chip, it’ll guarantee you that nobody is different. You can take that then and go, oh, geez, okay, now we get, we have some work to do, but really let’s not focus on our values, our mission, and our our vision statements for the website. Let’s focus on our true differentiators. it’s not results driven and ethical. And yes, because those things, we all do those things. What makes you truly different? Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and they’ll all tell you by the way that their teams are their differentiator. Yes. Because that’s Gini Dietrich: mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: Every agency loves to say that, but. It’s not possible. Gini Dietrich: Results driven. Team. Yep. Our people. Yep. They all our team. Yep. That, that’s exactly what they’ll all say. Chip Griffin: Our, it’s all about our people. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Do the work I wanna see. And then sending your results. Chip Griffin: Please do. And maybe, maybe then we could have an episode where we walk through some of that and find out that they’re all exactly the same. Gini Dietrich: They’re all exactly the same Chip Griffin: that everybody has submitted to us. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: But yeah, in any case, I think that’s probably enough beating up on people today. We do this a lot now, maybe we need to be a little bit, we do, yeah. Kinder and gentler to the agency community. Gini Dietrich: It’s okay, Chip Griffin: but you know some someone’s gotta speak truth to it. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: And that’s what we do. So on that note, we’ll wrap this episode up. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

When you're an expert in something, it's tempting to assume the role of your communication is to deliver something in an academic way. Instruct, advise, and teach. Sometimes, this devolves into shoving a wall of smarts *at* the world. But you need to translate what you know into language that causes others to care. That's something today's guest embraced 10 years ago, and the combination of his ideas and his influence have put him in rare company.Today's guest is David C. Baker, a 7-time author which the New York Times once called "the expert's expert." His business, Punctuation, and his seminal books like The Business of Expertise and Selling Your Professional Service Firm help business owners achieve their next milestones with clarity and confidence. Today, we hear from David about why the EASY part of our work as experts is the insight. The hard part is wrapping insight into something delicious others want to eat.Plus, he shares a rare kind of story he wrote, and we break it down together, and you'll get a fascinating look inside the thought process and creative practice of one of the world's top voices in the business of expertise.This is a great one with the great David C. Baker!***ABOUT ME, JAY ACUNZOI help experts and entrepreneurs win more and better clients, at higher prices, with less friction. To do that, I help transform their thinking into resonant, repeatable ideas that define categories, build movements, and make them the favorite voice in their space—not just another option. Stop chasing attention. Become the one others seek. I'm a former marketing leader at Google and HubSpot and globally touring speaker and author. I've spent 20 years building the exact thought leadership I now help clients create—as a practitioner-peer, not a coach with templates.Work with me 1:1, book me to speak, or explore free resources at jayacunzo.comDon't market more. Matter more.Think resonance over reach.Don't be the best. Be their favorite.***ENJOY THE SHOW? PLEASE SAY THANKS!Leave a review on Apple Podcasts Leave a rating on Spotify Thanks for listening!

If/when you sell your firm, it'll likely be the largest transaction of your life, and so it makes sense to understand it! In this episode David gives a crash course in everything earnouts.   LINKS "Understanding Earnouts" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Selling isn't about pressure — it's about positioning, psychology, and trust. In this episode of The Rural Sales Show, St John Craner speaks with Blair Enns, world-renowned sales trainer and author known for helping creative professionals master the art of selling expertise. Together, they unpack what truly drives sales effectiveness — and how mindset, framing, and confidence shape every client conversation. You'll learn: - Why mindset matters more than tactics in high-trust selling - How to sell your expertise instead of discounting your value - Smart strategies for pricing, packaging, and bundling services - The four conversations that define every successful sale - How to handle objections without losing authority or rapport - Why not everyone needs to be a “salesperson” — and what to focus on instead Blair and St John explore how to lead better sales conversations built on clarity, trust, and curiosity — lessons that apply whether you're selling creative services or complex rural solutions.

David recognizes that the fear of repeating ourselves in our client work is motivated by the right things: “am I delivering value?”   LINKS "Repeating Yourself as an Expert" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com "Questions, Not Answers" 2Bobs episode

In this episode, Guy Bauer, founder and creative director of Umault, shares the single biggest lesson he's learned about marketing: never stop. Through analogies ranging from hand-pumped water wells to Top Gun, Guy explains why consistency matters more than perfection, why most marketing efforts will fail before they succeed, and why hitting pause is the most dangerous move a brand can make. If you've ever been tempted to cut spend or stop campaigns because results look flat, this short, punchy episode will remind you why momentum is everything.

David provides a framework for one of the most important conversations in a creative agency principal's life.   LINKS "When A Key Employee Wants Equity" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com "Pros + Cons of Having a Partner" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

David recognizes more than a few parallels between his passion for motorcycle racing and the work being done in creative and marketing agencies.   LINKS “What I Learned from the Race Track” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Welcome to episode 141. I'm chatting to Brett Harned, a consultant, coach, and author with 20+ years of experience leading digital and creative teams. He helps organisations solve people, process, and culture challenges with a strategic, human-centred approach. A longtime voice in the PM community, Brett founded the Digital PM Summit, wrote Project Management for Humans, and shares practical insights at BrettHarned.com. If you've ever wondered whether account management and project management should be separate roles in your agency, or maybe how AI might be reshaping both of these roles, then this episode is going to be packed with insights for you. We talk about: • what makes a successful hybrid AM-PM and why it's so hard to find one • the structure and support needed to make hybrid roles work • how to start separating AM and PM roles without blowing up your team or your client relationships • what agencies need to do now to adapt to AI • the project-based future of our industry • and why focusing on people not just process or tools is the secret to great project delivery. If you are currently navigating the complexities of the AM/PM roles in your agency, or you're thinking about making the switch, then why not come and join Brett and I, and David C Baker, for the annual AM and PM seminar in Atlanta on 23rd & 24th September 2025. And, if you want to stay ahead on topics like this and anything to do with client relationship management, agency growth, and the ever-evolving role of AI, then make sure you're signed up to my newsletter, in which I share practical tips, new podcast episodes, updates and mini trainings. Visit my website to subscribe and there you'll also find my AI-readiness quiz. https://www.accountmanagementskills.com

David finds the courage to address a topic he's been putting off for awhile, as he is seeing more agency principals struggling to maintain both healthy and productive work environments by leading the ongoing process of resolving tensions within their teams.   LINKS "Adapting to a Modern Workforce" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Welcome to episode 138. If you're managing client relationships - or leading others who do - this episode is packed with practical advice. I'm joined by David C. Baker, widely regarded as "the expert's expert" in the marketing agency world. David has advised over 1,000 entrepreneurial experts through his consulting firm, Punctuation, which he founded back in 1994. He's the author of 7 books, including the influential "The Business of Expertise" and "Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors," and his latest book “Selling your professional services firm”. His insights have been featured in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal and numerous other publications. As the co-host of the popular "2Bobs" podcast, David regularly shares his expertise on agency management. With decades of experience working with marketing services firms, David brings unparalleled insights into the nuanced relationship between account management and project management - which makes him the perfect guest as we prepare for the third annual Account and Project Management event in Atlanta in September 2025. Here's just a handful of the things we covered: • Why growing the account is the primary role of an account manager - and why order-taking isn't enough (particularly now) • The healthy tension that needs to exist between AMs and PMs - and what happens when one person does both • Why strong account managers read the room - not just run the meeting • How to lead clients without being pushy - and why honesty is your best sales strategy • Practical tips for handovers, managing workload, and setting account managers up for success • And why account managers can - and should - lead the AI conversation within the agency David also shares thoughts on leadership, compensation, and the future of AM in an AI-driven world. If this conversation sparked ideas for how you can grow your client relationships, lead more confidently, and future-proof your role - then imagine what could happen if you gave yourself two days completely focused on it. Join us in Atlanta this 23rd and 24th of September for the AM/PM Conference - the only event created specifically for agency account and project managers. This isn't just another conference. It's where you'll: • Surround yourself with people who get it - fellow AMs and PMs facing the same pressures and expectations you are • Learn practical strategies to retain and grow client accounts, manage tricky situations, and improve delivery - without burning out • Discover exactly how other agencies are using AI to work smarter, automate the boring stuff, and deliver faster, better outcomes • Leave with fresh tools, frameworks, and real-world examples you can put into practice the very next day I'll be there, David C. Baker will be there, and we're also joined by Brett Harned - founder of the Digital PM Summit and author of Project Management for Humans. If you're serious about growing your career and elevating your role - this is where it happens. Visit https://www.punctuation.com for all the details and to grab your spot.

Ignoring any unexpected offers to buy your business that might come your way is not in your best interest. But neither is dating all opportunities in desperation. David has four things principals should consider, whether or not you are actively looking to sell your firm.   Links “Should You Entertain That Offer?” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com 2Bobs London Meet-up on Thursday 8 May, 2025 at 2pm

Episode 252FACULTY: Ron BakerCLASS: #TheGuideScotty's back in the Office with our Principal, Ron Baker, and he has a copy of "The Creative Act: A Way of Being" by Rick Rubin. In this book report, they cover a wide range of topics, including creativity in art and accounting, the quest for efficiency, the role of humor in art, and the importance of paying attention to your surroundings. The conversation also touches on the challenges of being an entrepreneur and artist, the subjective nature of value, and the evolution of an artist's work. This engaging and thought-provoking discussion is a must-listen for anyone interested in creativity, art, or entrepreneurship. Tune in to hear more from Scott and Ron on "The Creative Act" and its many insights.All the Shoutouts:Greg Kyte, CPA, Rick Rubin, Broken Record, Jason Ackerman, CPA, CFP®, CGMA, Times up, Jasper, Conversations with Tyler, South Park, Arthur Schopenhauer, John Wooten, James Clear, Simon Sinek, Tim Williams, Nikole Mackenzie, David C. Baker, Caddyshack, Dave Chappelle, Terrell A Turner, CPA, Kenji Kuramoto, James Ashford, Michelle Weinstein, Tim Ferriss, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Eminem, Paul McCartney, Beatles, Elvis Presley, Sage, Thriveal, The Crux, Momentum Accounting, Inc, Mortimer J. Adler

David thinks principals should build their firms as if they were going to sell it while Blair's advice is to run it as if you'll never sell it. Being aware of options as your firm matures can give you the leverage you might need in negotiations.   Links “Ten Reasons Firms Are Bought” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

David describes the differences in what kind of people principals should hire during the early stage of their creative firm's development when it's all about “what we can afford,” the middle stage when it's about “what we need,” and then the later days of an agency when it's about “what we can learn.”   LINKS “How Your Hiring Strategies Change” by David C. Baker for punctuation.com “The Problem of Standards” by David Maister

Blair interviews David on his recent article about the idea that expertise does involve supplying answers, eventually, but mainly expertise is about asking the right questions, first, and then offering a few answers after the truth surfaces.   Links “Expertise Is Mainly About Asking Great Questions” by David C. Baker on Punctuation.com

David C. Baker is the author of multiple books, including “The Business of Expertise: How Entrepreneurial Experts Convert Insight To Impact + Wealth”. He's a helicopter and airplane pilot, an avid photographer, and taught high performance motorcycle riding/racing. Based in Nashville, he has visited and worked all over the world. On this episode of 50 Fires, he shares his insights on staying curious in life, the importance of keeping meaningful hobbies, and how to shut out the noise of comparative spending.  Email List: Sign up at https://www.50fires.com/ for our monthly email with resources for financial advisors!  Follow 50 Fires on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/50firespod/ Please direct business inquires to: blindnilaudio@magnolia.com Cover Art: Josh Passler - TheFinArtist.com Music Credits:  Alexandra Woodward / Rabbit Reggae / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Cody Francis / Wherever You're Going / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

David unpacks six principles that can help creative firms benefit from delivering strategic guidance through their account managers.   LINKS "Account Managers and Strategy" by David C. Baker at punctuation.com

Thinking about hosting a live event, but not sure how to make it well-attended, profitable and worth your time? Renowned author, speaker and creative firm advisor David C. Baker lifts the curtain on his wildly successful MYOB conference and live events:The role of in-person live events in David's expertise business model (plus a peek at the numbers for his four revenue streams).How his pandemic pivot from in-person gatherings became a new lead generation source—and removed travel from his client engagements.Why his conferences and events include multiple opportunities for attendees to engage with each other; he shares a few ideas you can borrow.His philosophy on outside speakers: how he chooses, pays and manages them.The one thing you must do if you want to make sure your conference doesn't lose money.LINKSDavid C. Baker MYOB Conference | LinkedIn | TwitterRochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramBIODavid C. Baker is an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He has written 6 books, advised 1,000+ firms, and keynoted conferences in 30+ countries.His work has been discussed in the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Forbes, USA Today, BusinessWeek, CBS News, Newsweek, AdWeek, and Inc. Magazine. He lives in Nashville, TN.His two most recent books can be found here and here. His work has also been featured in the NY Times, where he was recently referred to as “the expert's expert”. He co-hosts the most listened to podcast in the creative services field (2Bobs).BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLERESOURCES FOR SOLOISTSJoin the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.TRANSCRIPT00:00 - 00:17David C. Baker: You know, here's the easiest way to lose money with an event. When I learned this, my whole world changed about events. Do not sign up for room blocks because you're having to guarantee them. And then you have this pressure to sell and then you cheapen your brand by starting to beg people to come to these things and so on.00:24 -...

Thinking about quitting your job to start a business? Think again! Veteran entrepreneur Steve Lomas shares candid advice on the realities of entrepreneurship, the importance of mentorship, and the emotional rollercoaster of building a business.

David provides some clear examples of what is required for a firm to be successful at offering one service for many different verticals.   Links “Strengthening a Weak Horizontal Positioning” by David C. Baker on punctuation.com

David shares his decision-making framework that will help agency principals make better decisions during chaotic times like these.   LINKS “Leading in a Chaotic World” article by David C. Baker on Punctuation.com

Specialize to stand out! ✨ In the latest Get Yourself Optimized podcast, David C. Baker shares his advice for you to become an elite expert. David C. Baker is a renowned author, speaker, and advisor who specializes in guiding entrepreneurial creative professionals worldwide. With an impressive portfolio of 6 published books under his belt, he has lent his expertise to over 1,000 firms through personalized advisory services. A true thought leader in his field, David has delivered keynote speeches at conferences across more than 30 countries, with his work garnering attention and discussion in numerous international publications. His extensive knowledge and industry impact have earned him the prestigious title of "the expert's expert" from The New York Times. Additionally, David co-hosts the top-ranked podcast in the creative services industry, further solidifying his position as a leading authority in the space. In our conversation, David drops a wealth of wisdom and actionable advice on deeply specializing your expertise, intentionally designing how you deliver that expertise, protecting your personal "bubble" to avoid burnout, evolving your positioning across different career seasons, and so much more. He also gets remarkably candid about the universal search for meaning, cultivating authentic relationships over superficial branding, embracing failures, and prioritizing what truly matters. Whether you're a consultant, coach, agency leader or just someone striving to elevate your impact, this episode is an absolute must-listen. You'll walk away with potent insights to optimize your expertise for greater impact and longevity. Tune in now! The show notes, including the transcript and checklist to this episode, are at getyourselfoptimized.com/465.

Don’t sugarcoat it when writing up a job description or interviewing potential new hires – painting a rosy picture that doesn’t match reality will only cause you headaches down the road. In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the importance of being open and honest about work expectations at your agency, including hours, tasks, and working conditions. They emphasize the need for clear communication during the hiring process to ensure the best fit between you and your employees. None of this gives you license to abuse your team members, but it is better to acknowledge things that new employees may not like before you bring them on board and have a much bigger problem to solve. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “If you are an agency where you’re expected to work 60 hours a week because it’s the only way that the business can make ends meet, at least be honest with your employees about that up front.” Gini Dietrich: “Expecting employees to work 60 hours a week consistently is not going to fly. You shouldn’t be working more than 40 hours a week and they shouldn’t either.” Chip Griffin: “It’s not just around the number of hours or the working conditions. If there are other things that you know people have had concerns about, you should get that out on the table during the hiring process.” Gini Dietrich: “Line out what your expectations are, and then you will attract the kind of people that are a good fit for your business. And then you as the agency owner won’t be frustrated because they’re not living up to your expectations.” Resources David C. Baker’s LinkedIn post Related Recruiting the best talent for your agency Are you trying to hire unicorns for your agency? ALP 21: How to hire agency employees View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I expect that we are going to take the next 60 hours to record this and get this show exactly perfect. We’re just going to keep going and going and going. No breaks, no sleep, no snacks, nothing. Gini Dietrich: You will not want to see me at the end of 60 hours if that’s the case. Not good. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I, I’m not sure I look good at the start of the 60 hours, so probably another 60 wouldn’t be good. Gini Dietrich: I would be cranky, hungry, tired. Chip Griffin: But, but it, it does bring about the, the question, I mean, the agency industry has a well-deserved reputation built up over many decades. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: For often being a very difficult place to work. And we’ve talked about this before about how agencies don’t price correctly, which means they can’t staff correctly. And so people have to work all sorts of extra hours and that kind of thing. It’s one of the reasons why one of the first things I ask a new agency owner is. How often do your employees work more than 40 hours a week? And if they tell me all the time, I know we’ve got a fundamental problem, probably with pricing, but certainly with resourcing. And I think the biggest problem though, is that a lot of agencies pretend this is not what they are. And so in the hiring process, they are not clear about this. And so, so I, what I want to talk about today is to encourage you to be open and honest about the work environment that you actually have. If you are a place where you’re expected to work 60 hours a week because it’s the only way that the business can make ends meet. At least be honest with your employees about that up front. And it is, it is something a number of months ago, I think it was David C. Baker shared a job description that someone had posted for an agency job. And it basically said, we are a sweatshop. I mean, it just, it went through in excruciating detail what the expectations were, and it sounded like an absolutely miserable place to work, and most people chimed in and said, this is just awful. And I said, well, on the plus side, they’re at least being honest about it. And so I, I think that you need to be honest with yourself about the work environment that you have. And then communicate that honestly to prospective hires. So they know good or bad what they’re getting into. Gini Dietrich: Yes. And if you are that kind of place and you are communicating it honestly and transparently, great. But you also have some work to do because expecting employees to work 60 hours a week consistently is not going to fly. So to your point earlier, you know, there are some fundamental issues in this. You’re not pricing correctly. You’re not resourced correctly. You’re not scoping correctly. There are a lot of things that are happening at your level as the agency owner, that is not happening correctly. If your employees are consistently working more than 60 hours a week, more than 40 hours a week, that’s just not, it’s not okay. And you know, I grew up in the big PR firm world. We were expected to bill 40 hours a week. Our admin work was about 20 hours a week. And then we had another 20 hours a week of new business at least. And that’s if you wanted to be promoted. And so I think a lot of us come with that expectation of this is what you have to do. But as we talked about last week with the younger generations, they’re not going to do it. And good for them because they shouldn’t do it. You shouldn’t be working more than 40 hours a week and they shouldn’t either. Chip Griffin: Yes. I mean, it is certainly not the right thing to do, but I think that, that If you are doing it, you at least need to communicate that expectation. And I think the expectations for new hires, it’s not just around the number of hours or the working conditions or that kind of thing. If there are other things that you know people have had concerns about, you should get that out on the table during the hiring process. So for instance, when I was in public affairs, when I was doing hiring, I would always be very direct about the kinds of clients that we were doing work for to make sure that if anybody had any discomfort with the issues that we were dealing with we got that out in the open from the beginning. Because, you know, if you’re going to work for a political candidate or something, it’s often very obvious what they do. And so you can make that judgment before you even apply. When you’re talking about public affairs firms oftentimes, nobody really knows who the clients are or they don’t have a good understanding as a prospective hire. And so I always tried to make sure they understood these are the kind of industries we’re working for. These are the kinds of challenges that they have that we’re often dealing with. Does that work for you? And so I think whatever those issues that you know exist within your business that might cause anxiety or problems down the road, get them out in the open before you’ve brought them on board. Don’t go into this process of hiring where you just, you make it sound like you’re the best place to work and everybody gets to kind of do it. Because every one of us has warts in our businesses. There is no perfect business out there and everybody, we’ve all got our idiosyncrasies. I certainly – people can see mine because I share most of them on this podcast and elsewhere. But you want to make sure that that there is that good fit and that you’re sharing enough in the hiring process that the expectations are absolutely clear. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, because I think what happens if you don’t is you as the agency owner get frustrated. A day in, a week in, a month in, 90 days in when somebody is not performing at the level that you expected them to. And it’s because you didn’t communicate your expectations. So we tend to have these expectations. Oh, well they’re going to work 60 hours a week and they’re going to be fine about it and they’re going to put their heads down and work hard and they’re not going to expect feedback unless it’s you know, constructive criticism and they’re not going to, they’re going to not going to expect a promotion within six months. Like we have all these expectations in our head and you’re exactly right. We should say this is what we expect. We work Monday through Friday, nine to five with an hour lunch. We expect you to bill X number of hours a week. We expect that you will not be promoted in the first year. We expect your first 90 days we’ll do this. Like line out what those expectations are, and then you will attract the kind of people that are a good fit for your business. And then you as the agency owner won’t be frustrated because they’re not living up to your expectations. Chip Griffin: Right. And so, you know, if you’re sharing all these expectations and it’s even things like, you know, what, what availability do you expect outside of normal working hours? If you email them on the weekend, what do you expect? Now we would sit here and tell you, you generally shouldn’t expect your employees to respond nights and weekends. But there are certainly agencies. If you’re in crisis, if you’re in some kind of public affairs type, there are certain spaces that you’re in where that becomes necessary. And so at a, at a minimum, you need to be communicating that and helping prospective hires understand what they’re getting into. And I think part of the challenge is that most agencies, particularly small ones, when they’re out hiring, they are so desperate to get the resource in because everybody waits, or most people wait too long to hire. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Which in general is good. You want to be conservative on hiring, but if you wait till the point where it’s a crisis, where you’re just, your team is completely overloaded, where you’re not able to meet client commitments because you don’t have the staffing, you will tend to do everything you can to get someone in the door. And that often means really sugarcoating what reality is. And that may get the person to come in the door, but it’s not going to keep them around very long and it’s not going to make them happy employees. And so you need to be thinking about these kinds of things. And I mean, expectations are so important on all levels, right? I mean, it’s, it’s why a lot of client relationships fail. It’s why a lot of employment relationships fail. Be clear about it because there, there are people out there who will be okay with it. There are people out there who don’t mind you reaching out to them as an employee nights or weekends. Find those people. There are even plenty, I mean, early in my career, I had no problem working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. I enjoyed what I was doing. And, and those people absolutely exist. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Find them. Don’t try to fit someone in who is not comfortable with that, who is not happy with that approach. That’s just not going to work for anyone. Gini Dietrich: When I started my business, I had an employee. Who was, he was, he was a great employee. He did a really good job. He also loved to leave for afternoon Cubs games, which was fine. Like I didn’t have a problem with that, but I learned very quickly that I had to set the expectation with him. That if you were going to leave for an afternoon Cubs game, your work had to be finished. You had to meet your deadlines. If you had a deadline tomorrow and it wasn’t finished by the time the Cubs game started, you can’t leave for the game. And I didn’t outline that as an expectation because I didn’t realize that that was one that I had until it happened that he had a deadline on a Thursday and he left on Wednesday at 12:20 to go to a one o’clock game and he didn’t get his work done. And it caused some major issues. So my point is, is that you’re going to evolve this as well. Like things will happen where you have an expectation and the employee doesn’t realize it. And then you have to go backwards and say, okay. Because this happened, this is how we’re going to work it next time. And, and I, he was, he was super pissed at me. I said, listen, I’m not your mom. I don’t want to be your mom. I don’t want to babysit. But the work has to get done. Your client work has to be done. And your deadline to your teammates has to be finished. So if you want to go to the Cubs game, by all means have at it. We’re flexible enough that you can do it, but the work has to be done. He was super pissed at me for a couple of weeks, but it gave us the opportunity to put that out in the open to everybody else too. We are talking right now about doing a four day work week and we’re all communicating about what that would look like. The agency has to be open five days. So, you know, everybody of course wants a Monday or a Friday off, right? That’s not possible. So we’re right now trying to figure out what those expectations are. I also, as the agency owner would like a Monday or a Friday off, right? So what are those expectations and how are we going to do it? And we’re working through that as a, as a team to figure out what that looks like, cause we don’t know. This is the first time we’re doing it and not, there aren’t many agencies or businesses out there that do that, that right now. So there isn’t a sort of a, a template to follow. But when you have an organization where you’re open and you’re transparent, you can have those kinds of conversations about what your expectations are and receive feedback from your team too, to include it in. And then you can include that in your job description as well. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I love that you said you, that you didn’t realize that you had an expectation until you did. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And so I think that that’s a key part of this is, you want to learn from, you’re not going to get everything right with your first hire and communicate, but as you, as you do more hiring, as you manage more employees, you start to see where are those things that cause friction? Where are those things that, that you become frustrated with so that you can then work on setting the expectations. Or explaining the situation even from the beginning. And so for me, you know, there, one of the things I’ve learned over the years is you have to be really clear with people when you’re hiring. If there is a bunch of work that’s not going to be enjoyable that they have to do, right? So, so when I ran CustomScoop, one of the roles was reviewing sources and configuring newspaper sites to be set up in our system so that they were accurate and all that. And it was mind numbing work. And so, you know, what we tried to do was create roles where that was only a percentage of the day and the individuals doing something else because we learned that you couldn’t just have someone do that all day long. But every agency has things that are not fun to do that are, and you need to be really careful that you are being clear with your perspective new hires about what they will really be doing and share with them what a typical week work looks like. So don’t make it sound like they get to, you know, do a lot of high level strategy of what they’re really doing is, you know, maintaining media lists every. Yep. That’s, that is a recipe for disaster because someone is coming in thinking they’re doing this big picture thought stuff. And, and you’ve probably found someone really talented who’s interested in that. And now you’re telling them you have to maintain media lists. You have to just, you know, send out blast emails every day. You know, these are not the kinds of things they were necessarily told in the beginning. So you need to be clear about that when you’re setting those expectations and hiring. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. If you hired one of us, And you, you said, okay, we’re going to do strategic, you’re going to do strategic, high level work. And then you got into the role and found out you were maintaining media lists… That’s the fastest way for me to be like, peace out. Chip Griffin: Yep. Gini Dietrich: That was fun. No freaking way. Chip Griffin: Right. Well, and, and, and that comes down to your expectations have to be aligned with what you’re actually hiring. So, you know, it, and you know, this was something again, that I learned the hard way. You know, I, I hired a lot of assistants over the years, back in the day when, you know, physical offices and travel. But I would, I would often expect that they would be able to do that, but then also help me with research or other things. Sure. The problem is that people who are good at one or enjoy doing one are often not good or enjoy doing the other. And so, so I learned the hard way that it was really hard to, to mesh those two jobs together because even if they could do the admin side, if I was having them do the other stuff that was more exciting, they would tend to gravitate over and prioritize doing that work. And so I was always having to pull them back and say, no, but we need to get this. Gini Dietrich: But I need, I, I need to go to DC. Chip Griffin: Right. And so Gini Dietrich: Tomorrow. Chip Griffin: Yes. And I don’t have a flight or a hotel. Right? Start with the flight. At least if I, I mean, that usually helps most, most of the time, unless it’s around inauguration, you can get a room somewhere in the DC metro area. But, but these are the things that you need to think about so that when you’re communicating those expectations, it’s a realistic expectation. Right. I mean, if you find that you’re out there and talking to prospective employees and they all say, no, pass, not interested, then you need to think about have I designed this role in a way that it gets me what I need as an agency owner, but it’s also something that is realistically available out there in the marketplace. Sometimes you need to make adjustments to whatever you’re hiring so that you have that, that mesh between what the talent pool has and what you need. Gini Dietrich: That’s super good advice because I think that goes for a lot of things that we do in our agency life too. Pricing, scope of work, all of those kinds of things. You know, I always know that when I price something and the prospect doesn’t balk at it or try to negotiate that it’s too low. And so I will say to myself, Oh, okay. So next time when we do this, We’re going to up it up. And I, I continue to increase the price until somebody goes, Oh, well, can we maybe talk about, you know, negotiating this or what the scope of work looks like or something like that? And then I know I’ve hit the right, the right price. Same thing with this. You know, if you’re out there and you’re, you’re completely honest about what the job is and you say. We expect that you’ll work 60 hours a week and some of that will be nights and weekends. And this is what we expect. And you’re attracting candidates. Then it’s probably okay. I have a niece that has my work ethic and she’s like, that’s great. I would love to do that. I would love to work 60 hours a week because I know that I’m contributing to an organization. So they are, they do exist. That’s for sure. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, if you’re being honest about it, you’ll find those good fits. If you’re not honest about it, you’re just creating problems. Okay. for yourself that will only get worse over time. And so, you know, being really thoughtful about this and, you know, I mean, even things like, you know, what level of control do you want to have? I mean, there are a lot of agency owners who are micromanagers. If you’re a micromanager, you don’t necessarily have to come out and say, I’m a micromanager. But you should be communicating that you have very high standards and expectations and you review everything that goes out and, you know, and then someone can decide if that’s for them or not. I mean, if I had to have every one of my, you know, emails or drafts reviewed by a boss, I’d be like, pass. Thank you. I’m good. I’m good. I can, I can handle that stuff. And if you don’t think I can, then I’m not the right fit. Yep. Unfortunately, most prospective hires are not going to be honest with you. So you need to be honest with them so that they can at least make an informed decision and, and help them. I mean, even share with them, you know, what those early days are going to be like, because there are some particularly in small agencies occasions where, in fact, many occasions where you just want to throw them into the deep end of the pool and you want them to contribute from day one. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: If that’s your expectation, communicate that. There’s a certain kind of individual who’ll be fine. Sure. Absolutely. Day one, throw me right in. I’m happy to jump into a client call on day one. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: There are others who will say, well, hold on. I need to, you know, you need to get me up to speed. You need to teach me this and that, and I need time to acclimate to my colleagues and be honest. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s really good advice. Actually. I’m going to tell, make sure that a client of mine listens to this because putting in there that you have a way of doing your work, that it’s the agency’s way that you’re going to be expected to do it that way. And that does include the owner reviewing everything that goes out the door, that should be in the job description. I think that’s really good advice. I’m gonna make sure she listens to this. Chip Griffin: And there are a lot of small agency owners who want to review absolutely everything. Oh yeah, for sure. That’s a separate conversation, something we’ve touched on before. You absolutely shouldn’t be doing that. But if you’re going to do that, if you can’t let go of it. At least let people know Yep. That you can’t let go of it. And the, the last piece on expectations that I would say is I, I think you need to be really clear about your expectations around compensation reviews and… yes. Promotions. And you know how you handle that. Yep. Yep. So you often, oftentimes I will see a hiring manager who’s got someone coming in and, you know, they say, well, you know, I’d really like to be making a little bit more than that. And you say, well, but you will, we’ll review it within, you know, the first 90 days or something like that. If you’re going to do that, first of all, I don’t love that, but if you’re going to do that, make, make it clear that it’s not every 90 days, it’s going to be reviewed. Because presumably that’s not what you mean. What you mean is we’ll do a 90 day check in, review it, and then, you know, we’ll go on to annual after that or something like that. But, but helping people to understand what they should expect in terms of reviews, of compensation adjustments, what your structures are regarding bonuses or any other things like that. Make sure they understand those. They may not, particularly if you’re hiring newer workers, they may not be savvy enough to know what they should be asking. Right. And so instead of hiding it, you’re better off volunteering it to them and help them to understand, you know, what is the total compensation package look like and how often do you review it going forward? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I actually think that’s, and that’s another subject for another, episode as well. But you know, we talked, we’ve talked about helping them understand how the agency makes money. I think showing them how much the compensation packages, because so many, especially young professionals come into the, into the workforce and they’re like, Oh, this is my salary. And they don’t take into account all the other things that you’re paying for too. So I think the, the point here is be very clear about what it is. Be very clear about what your expectations are and be honest. Like there may be things that kind of suck right now and you’re trying to change it, but be honest about that and say, you know, this is what we expect right now and we’ll continue to evolve as we grow. Chip Griffin: And if there’s something you’re not comfortable sharing, that’s probably the first thing you ought to share. Gini Dietrich: Probably. And probably the first thing you should change. Chip Griffin: Generally speaking, yes. Yep. Well, with that, my expectation is we’re going to draw this episode to a close because we’ve run out of time. Gini Dietrich: That’s a good expectation then. Chip Griffin: I’m going to hit the stop record button in just a moment. So, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

I was asked for the"secrets" I have for marketing. The biggest secret is this: *drum roll* Vertical specialization *Jedi Wave* "this is the secret you've been looking for" Really? Yes, really. Based on metric fscktonnes of research (that's the technical term) I conducted, and reading the research of others, I believe that positioning your business as specializing in a single vertical is the "magic bullet" that will result in more leads & sales than any other marketing strategy. Why is it a secret? Because niching down to a single vertical scares the crap out of people. There are loads of reasons to fear it: it's turning down opportunity (somewhat valid but doesn't really happen) or "I'll get bored just working in one industry" (highly unlikely, as you specialize you find deeper, more interesting problems.) And it's also difficult, and time consuming, and lots of other problems. But it's worthwhile. What's my call to action? Simple: don't just take my word for it: Listen to Wolfram Moritz and Brad Farris and Jonathan Stark and Sara Dunn and Louis Grenier on the Marketing for Consultants podcast. Go read Philip Morgan's "The Positioning Manual for Indie Consultants" where he walks you through how and why to specilize.  Read the Business of Expertise from David C. Baker where he lists the pros and cons of vertical vs horizontal specialization.  Read Spiraling Up from Lee Frederiksen & Aaron E. Taylor.  In fact, check out everything from Hinge, including Kelly J. Waffle's interview with Yitzi Weiner in the Thrive Global Community. Thank you for attending my TED rant.

While discussing eight ways creative firms can do pro bono work better based on an article David wrote recently, both he and Blair discover a couple new profound insights together.   LINKS “Maximizing Your Pro-Bono Contributions” by David C. Baker at Punctuation.com Left-handed Mango Chutney

Get my Monthly Newsletter here Welcome to part 2 of the mini-series “To Hire or Not to Hire.”   Today Erica talks with Geraldine Carter, a business coach who works with CPAs to help them go down to a forty-hour, then twenty-five-hour, and then eventually fifteen-hour work week without losing revenue. Their deep-dive discussion covers strategies for optimizing work hours and productivity without necessarily expanding the team. Just another approach to growing a profitable business! Find the answer to these questions inside… How can coaches and consultants scale their business without hiring? What are the benefits of staying solo versus hiring in consulting? How can hiring experts help consultants avoid the hire-fire cycle? What strategies can be used to reduce work hours without losing revenue? Can you grow your consulting business profit without expanding your team? Books mentioned in this episode: Getting Things Done, David Allan Value-Based Fees, by Alan Weiss Business of Expertise, by David C Baker   If you missed the first part of this 2-part series, catch it here: https://www.ericagoode.com/podcast/ep62   Reach out to Geraldine: On her website - GeraldineCarter.com Listen to the Business Strategies for CPAs podcast - on Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3HPR37G   Connect with Erica: Instagram  LinkedIn  

NOTE: Rochelle and I (Jonathan) couldn't record last week. Rather than give you nothing (or a TBOA repeat) to listen to, I decided to dig through the Ditching Hourly archives and find an episode that long time fans of TBOA would be sure to enjoy. Here's the info from the Ditching Hourly site: The “Expertise Expert” himself, David C. Baker, joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about the five things that happen right after you specialize.SummaryHere is an AI summary of the key points from the episode:The episode is a discussion between Jonathan Stark and David C. Baker about positioning and specialization for consultants and professional services firms.They discuss the importance of niche positioning to stand out, attract ideal clients, see client patterns more clearly, accelerate learning, and always have things to write and talk about.They outline 5 things that happen after narrowing your business focus:You don't instantly become smarter, but your rate of learning accelerates because you start seeing more examples of your niche.Impostor syndrome kicks in because you're making expertise-based claims you didn't make before, but this fear is often unfounded because you were willing to work with those clients previously.You don't have to turn down unrelated work right away during the transition period, though over time, you'll likely feel unsatisfied with off-target projects.You immediately start narrowing your focus even further, fine-tuning your positioning through real-world conversations and testing.Counterintuitively, you'll have way more to write and talk about when focused on a niche than as a generalist.Jonathan and David emphasize that niche positioning is critical before you can effectively differentiate, charge value-based pricing, market yourself, or even decide what content to produce. It brings focus to everything that follows.About David C. Baker“The Leading Authority on Positioning, Reinventing, and Selling Firms in the Creative and Digital Space.”David C. Baker is the author of five books, three of which focus on the central elements of the business of expertise: positioning, financial management, and leadership. David speaks regularly on more than 70 topics relevant to entrepreneurial expertise, from 20 executives to 5,000 live on TV worldwide, and has worked with 900+ firms through his Total Business Review process.David's LinksDavid's WebsiteDavid's book: The Business of ExpertiseDavid's podcast (with Blair Enns)  LINKSRochelle | Email List | Soloist Women | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramJonathan | Daily List | Website | Ditcherville | LinkedIn | Twitter

Welcome to episode 106. If you'd like to know how one agency has been using AI since 2011 to predict the future for their clients, this chat will be interesting for you. It will also be insightful if you're curious how the agency works with their global CPG and FMCG brands. ‌Nik Pearmine, Chief Strategy Officer at Black Swan Data, and I cover a range of topics including: - his view on what it takes to be successful in account management - what he thinks is in store for the future - and whether we should be worried about AI replacing our jobs. You can get in contact with Nik via LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikolas-pearmine-138bb612/ If you're listening to this at the beginning of 2024 and are based in the US, I wanted to let you know I'll be running a value-packed seminar with David C Baker and Jack Skeels on 12th and 13th March in Atlanta. ‌The event is all about the account management and project management roles. I'll be talking about the essentials of account management, how to grow an account and how account managers work with project managers. ‌David is extremely well known in the agency industry as he's an agency advisor, the author of “The Business of Expertise” and “Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors” as well as co-hosting the 2Bobs podcast with Blair Enns. ‌You can find all the details and book your tickets at David's website: https://www.punctuation.com

David C. Baker is an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He has written five books, including his latest book titled, The Business of Expertise. Baker has advised over 900 firms, was the keynote speaker at conferences in 30 countries, and his work has been discussed in dozens of international publications. The New York Times referred to him as the “expert's expert”. He is also the co-host of the 2Bobs podcast.

 Important Financial Metrics for Creative Agencies with David C. Baker https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/important-financial-metrics-for-creative-agencies-with/id1481877575?i=1000621344461Business Coaching, Staying Relevant, Achieving Success: Insight from Pinnacle Business Guides Founder Greg Cleary https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/business-coaching-staying-relevant-achieving-success/id1481877575?i=1000618300601The Future of AI: Balancing Innovation and Ethical Considerations with Shanif Dhanani https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-future-of-ai-balancing-innovation/id1481877575?i=1000627415283"What if There's More?" with Traci Barrett https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-if-theres-more-with-traci-barrett/id1481877575?i=1000603865819Rebranding Your Agency for Success with Todd Nienkerk https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rebranding-your-agency-for-success-with-todd-nienkerk/id1481877575?i=1000623632381Building an Enduring Business: The Three Pillars of Success with Natalie Eckdahl https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-an-enduring-business-the-three-pillars/id1481877575?i=1000615656509Forecasting as a Team Sport with Tom O'Neil https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/forecasting-as-a-team-sport-with-tom-oneil/id1481877575?i=1000620425413Adapting to a Hybrid Work Environment with Tammy Bjelland https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/adapting-to-a-hybrid-work-environment-with-tammy-bjelland/id1481877575?i=1000619084869Finding Balance in Life as an Entrepreneur with Coach Bob Shenefelt https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/finding-balance-in-life-as-an-entrepreneur-with-coach/id1481877575?i=1000638924357 Summit Virtual CFO by Anders website: https://www.summitcpa.net/Email us with questions or if you'd like to be a guest on the show: vcpasuccessshow@anderscpa.comThis Quiz Will Tell You What Financial Help Your Business Needs: https://rxkebp5191f.typeform.com/summitquiz?typeform-source=statics.teams.cdn.office.net 

When should agency owners consider selling their business? What are buyers looking for? What's the market like in 2023? Buckle up, because today's guest, Jonathan Baker has the answers. As the Practice Lead for Mergers and Acquisitions at Punctuation (formerly, David C. Baker), Jonathan knows a thing (or ten!) about what it takes to successfully close a deal in this market, and in the agency landscape overall. Interestingly, Jonathan has experience in selling his own business, having gone through the process with his brewery company that today boasts multiple locations and close to 200 employees. So, what's brewing with M&A? While it's been a challenging year for many agency owners and deal flow has slowed down massively, there will always be buyers on the market looking to complement their offering with specialized services. This episode dives into topics like positioning and specialization, the emotional side of selling your darling, and why you should continue to act as if you weren't selling even if you were in the process. Here's what Corey and Jonathan cover in this episode: The state of agency M&A this year. When agency owners should consider selling. How agency valuations are formed. What buyers are looking for and who's buying. Who should be involved from your team in M&A talks. Here are some actionable key takeaways for agency founders: If you don't have it in you to grow your business further, perhaps it's time for M&A. M&A can be a growth lever to get access to systems and perks of a larger firm. Strong positioning, client focus, and solid processes make you more attractive for M&A. A specific expertise can help get you acquired by generalist agencies. Don't share too much too early internally because things can change dramatically. The resources mentioned in this episode are: - Connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn Here - Learn About Punctuation Here - Check out the MYOB Conference Here Join us as we explore the ropes of agency M&A.

Blair and Leah are concluding their brief summer hiatus, back in the studio this week, preparing to bring you a brand new interview in two weeks time.  Until then, Blair has shamelessly selected another episode of his other podcast, 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship, which he cohosts with David C. Baker. In this episode from 2021, David interviews Blair about his Amazon #1 best-selling book, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, ten years after its launch. Blair's Twitter Blair's Linkedin Win Without Pitching Leah's Linkedin  The ICA The ICA's Linkedin David C. Baker 2Bobs The Win Without Pitching Manifesto

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching, the sales training organization for creative professionals. He is the author of two books, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. He is the co-host, along with David C. Baker, of the podcast 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship. Best of all, he is the guest on this week's show with Ron and Ed. A good portion of the show will be spend talking about The Innoficiency Principle. Blair laid out the thoughts behind this principle at this link and described it quite succinctly. From Blair: “The Innoficiency Principle states that innovation and efficiency are mutually opposable goals. In any reasonably functioning organization, one cannot be increased without decreasing the other.”

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching, the sales training organization for creative professionals. He is the author of two books, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. He is the co-host, along with David C. Baker, of the podcast 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship. Best of all, he is the guest on this week's show with Ron and Ed. A good portion of the show will be spend talking about The Innoficiency Principle. Blair laid out the thoughts behind this principle at this link and described it quite succinctly. From Blair: “The Innoficiency Principle states that innovation and efficiency are mutually opposable goals. In any reasonably functioning organization, one cannot be increased without decreasing the other.”

"Building a solid cash cushion is super important to any successful business and to any marketing firm out there." - David C. BakerThe finer details of this episode:Different approaches to financial managementThe importance of financial planning and forecasting Building a solid cash cushion Episode resources:Summit Virtual CFO by Anders website – summitcpa.netEmail us with questions or if you'd like to be a guest on the show – vcpasuccessshow@anderscpa.comBusiness Insight for Expert Marketing Firms (davidcbaker.com)David C. Baker | LinkedIn

While Blair and Leah take a brief summer hiatus, we're delighted to bring you an episode of Blair's other podcast, 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship. In this episode, Blair and his co-host David C. Baker talk about Blair's Innoficiency Principle as it applies to running an agency.  Blair's Twitter Blair's Linkedin Win Without Pitching The ICA's Linkedin Leah's Linkedin  The ICA David C. Baker 2Bobs The Innoficiency Problem

Justin Ahrens, David C. Baker, Michael Bierut, Bill Gardner, Darcy Hinrichs, Gary Kopervas, Emily Mills, Stefan Mumaw, and Calvin Ng discuss the first day of 2023’s HOW Design Live in Nashville, Tennessee. This HOW had an energy I missed. It[…]↓ Read the rest of this entry... The post HOW Design Live 2023, Conference Recap 1 of 3 : Justin Ahrens, David C. Baker, Michael Bierut, Bill Gardner, Darcy Hinrichs, Gary Kopervas, Emily Mills, Stefan Mumaw, Calvin Ng appeared first on 36 Point.

This episode is a short one with just a few updates. First off, you can sign up for my brand new email course, the Six Secrets to Outbound ROI, right now by going to www.GetOutboundROI.com. Who's this course for? It's for agency owners who are tired of not getting anywhere with their outbound. How do you know if this course will help? One sign is that you've tried and failed at all of the typical outbound strategies, like emails, calls and LinkedIn. Maybe you've also hired an outsourced lead gen company, but it didn't work. Another sign is that you've already hired and fired BDR teams maybe more than once. Another sign is that you've become too heavily reliant on inbounds to grow your business. You know you need outbound to work, but you've run out of ideas. Here's what you need to know about the Six Secrets to Outbound ROI email course. It's a free six-day email course where each day, you'll get a new secret delivered right to your inbox. These are the outbound secrets that help me grow Scorpion, a digital marketing agency, from $20 million to $40 million just by adding outbound to an existing inbound-only program. So if you're ready to start getting outbound working for your agency, go to www.GetOutboundROI.com right now and sign up. Second, we have some amazing guests coming up on the podcast, including author and well-known positioning expert and agency consultant David C. Baker. We also have the amazing Jonathan Stark coming up, as well as many more successful agency founders, coaches, and consultants, here to share their stories and insights on taking a vertical market approach to growth. Thank you for being a listener, and we'll see you next week.

David C Baker – What's Keeping You Up at Night? - David is the author of five books, three of which focus on the central elements of the business of expertise: positioning, financial management, and leadership. David speaks regularly on more than 70 topics relevant to entrepreneurial expertise, from 20 executives to 5,000 live on TV, all over the world. He also regularly appears as a guest on ca. 15 different podcasts every month. Go to to get the latest on David's work.  Also his LinkedIn account is dripping with wonderful insight. We get into a lot of things with our guest, what's his preferred lubricant for conversations, epistemological humility, the myth of certainty and the three things he believes about faith, among other fun topics. Hit that play button, folks! Please support the Break It Down Show by doing a monthly subscription to the show  All of the money you invest goes directly to supporting the show!   For the  of this episode head to  Haiku David C Baker He's no stranger to podcasts Not by a long shot   ​​Similar episodes: Adam Shoenfeld  Stuart Scheller  S. Sheller, Matt Hoh  Join us in supporting Save the Brave as we battle PTSD.  Executive Producer/Host: Pete A Turner  Producer: Damjan Gjorgjiev  Writer: Dragan Petrovski  The Break It Down Show is your favorite best, new podcast, featuring 5 episodes a week with great interviews highlighting world-class guests from a wide array of shows.  

Today's episode is brought to you by Damn Good Conversations David C. Baker is a return guest. You can listen to my first conversation with David HERE Today we talk about his incredible new book, Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors: Covert Techniques for a Remarkable Practice Check out David's new amazing book HERE This is a conversation about expertise, coaching, writing, the power of aesthic choices, and so much more. As always, thanks for listening! --Joe 

Behind his back, I call him a Peter Drucker. He's the co-host of one of my favorite podcasts, 2Bobs. He's also the author of six business books.His name is David C. Baker, and I could listen to him all day with his pearls of wisdom on accumulating and sharing expertise with others.David's newest book is Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors. You do not need to be a third-party business advisor to appreciate this conversation. The content of this book applies to anyone who is a knowledge worker.

Season 4 Episode 42 | Recorded Februrary 21, 2023 Scotty's back in the Office with our Principal, Ron Baker, and he has a copy of "The Creative Act: A Way of Being" by Rick Rubin. In this book report, they cover a wide range of topics, including creativity in art and accounting, the quest for efficiency, the role of humor in art, and the importance of paying attention to your surroundings. The conversation also touches on the challenges of being an entrepreneur and artist, the subjective nature of value, and the evolution of an artist's work. This engaging and thought-provoking discussion is a must-listen for anyone interested in creativity, art, or entrepreneurship. Tune in to hear more from Scott and Ron on "The Creative Act" and its many insights. Entering the principal's office… Rick Rubin Comparing Ron to Rick Ron's first thoughts - Anyone can be creative Spirituality and Art Output in art and accounting and the efficiency quest Jasper Report AI usage Humor and Art are confrontational The quest for efficiency Childlike wonder and awe Repackaging old ideas with new insight Patience versus Efficiency Unique art alienates and divides Purpose being debatable Race and color tweets and being offendable Alienating yourself and following your intuition Paying attention to your surroundings Seeing the signs around you R.A.A.P. Book MAAP Being a conduit for inspiration Everyone does things their own way Entrepreneur and Artist Sharing versus Scarcity A few quotes How the book was written and what makes it special The new rap name and new rap Writing the rap Profitability and Cash Flow Habits to get things done Value is subjective You'll never make it Evolution of an artist Our own filters and unique voices We like different takes Artist vs Entrepreneurs The suffering artist Superintendents, boards, field trips ABC tournament and the Anti-Conference Book Reports on going Summary of the book How to read a book Writing How to RAAP On the Crux: A challenge about value Wrapping up All the Shoutouts: Greg Kyte, CPA, Rick Rubin, Broken Record, Jason Ackerman, CPA, CFP®, CGMA, Times up, Jasper, Conversations with Tyler, South Park, Arthur Schopenhauer, John Wooten, James Clear, Simon Sinek, Tim Williams, Nikole Mackenzie, David C. Baker, Caddyshack, Dave Chappelle, Terrell A Turner, CPA, Kenji Kuramoto, James Ashford, Michelle Weinstein, Tim Ferriss, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Eminem, Paul McCartney, Beatles, Elvis Presley, Sage, Thriveal, The Crux, Momentum Accounting, Inc, Mortimer J. Adler --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/accountinghigh/message

Blair Enns and David C. Baker are highly successful entrepreneurs and authors, as well as hosts of the podcast, 2 Bobs.

Season 4 Episode 20 | Recorded February 7, 2023 VarsityTips is brought to you by LiveFlow https://www.liveflow.io/partnerships/accounting-high Get 20% off for 3 months with promo code HIGH And another special thank you to our Booster Partner AppStream powered by The GrowthLab In this episode, Scott and Niks explore the concept of profitability in their respective firms, drawing on their own experiences and anecdotes. They delve into various topics, such as outsourcing, hourly billing, and employee percentages, and discuss ways to improve your profitability, such as upselling, fixed pricing, and consulting. Along the way, they share fun stories, including encounters with a shady shirt vendor. They also share practical tips for increasing profitability, including investing in marketing, automation, and niching, as well as the importance of building relationships with other companies and providing excellent customer service. This podcast is a must-listen for anyone looking to improve their firm's bottom line. What to expect from this episode Your firm is your firm Simple Tasks! interrupts Start of the review Scott has learned nothing Working at home and outsourcing Stats on what people are doing in the office Revisiting hourly billing Scott's outsourcing update When you aren't being profitable The Ps Niks Profits Jedi Mindset Shift to abundance Goals Makeup of client profitability The cost of profitability Percentages for employees Sharing the owner's salary Raising prices and clients What's the key to profitability? Working hard or hardly working? Ways to increase profitability Pricing Rushing into new clients Making cuts and Price increases Jasper's answer to profitability Upselling Caring about the customer and fixed pricing Making big changes for the clients by consulting Scott's epiphany to help accountants Getting and giving referrals Investing in marketing? Automation Offer competitive pricing Niching Take on contracting work Bracket Challenge Expand relationships with other companies for leads Animals and Mascots All the Shoutouts: Ashley Carroll, Reza Hooda FCA CTA, The Abundant Accountant, Michelle Weinstein, David C. Baker, Karbon, Jasper, Ron Baker --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/accountinghigh/message

One of the most painful things any expert or consultant can do is… say no to opportunity. But it must be done. Author and advisor David C. Baker, who's been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and more, explains how doing so will actually make your business more successful (and ensure you enjoy your work even more, too).Building a business based on your expertise requires a unique approach. And David highlights some of the best practices for making sure potential clients recognize what you bring to the table – and pay accordingly. In this episode, you'll learn… The 4 common mistakes of entrepreneurs – and how to avoid them One of the best ways to organize your thoughts and formulate new ideas The dangers of over-delivering to a client 2 ways to gain expertise none of your competitors have How to ensure you can charge a premium for your services And more

Legendary leader, David C. Baker, joins The Businessology Show to once again share his invaluable agency insights with the world. This time, he reveals the three biggest developments agency leaders need to undergo in order to run a successful agency. Hint: Account Managers and Project Managers are on the hot seat now. Your agency will thank you later! David has plenty of more insights to apply to your agency here: https://www.davidcbaker.com/