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The follow-up mistake that costs sales (and kills communication) is a lack of sequencing. If I’ve got a sequence in place that says, all right, when I get a lead from a networking function, I’m going to initially, either same day or next morning, send out this email message, which essentially says, “it was great meeting you at the networking function. Nice having a chance to talk.” Then, you include something in that email to elicit a response. Some will initiate a dialogue, some of them won’t. So from that point, if you don’t hear back, you could have another one that goes out a couple of days later saying, “Hey, never heard back you on this, but something else occurred to me that I didn’t mention…” and then you add something else to the conversation that could potentially be of interest to them. So you’re not just hitting them with “call me, call me, call me, call me.” You’re actually creating value in the communication, which is particularly key when you’re doing sequencing like that. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the topic of sequencing your communication. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. Great to be with you again. I really love that we dive into these things that can have such an impact on your daily business. Oftentimes people will focus on the large things, not understanding that sometimes the smallest tweaks can make all the difference. David: Yeah, and things like this really are kind of diving deep. And many times I know other people in podcasts or in stuff that’s actually going out to the public, they’ll just keep it all high level and not really get into too much. I think we’ve done a reasonably good job over the years of diving a little deeper and getting into things in a little bit more detail. Because it’s important for people who watch this or listen to this to recognize that there are a lot of aspects to all of this. And we touched on this in the previous episode. We were talking about sort of the high level goals, we were talking about the high level concepts versus the nitty gritty of what do I have to do on a day-to-day basis. And this really gets more into the idea of the nitty gritty. But sequencing is something that I don’t hear many people talk about in business. And I think it’s a real game changer for people in the sense that when you get this and you start implementing it, it changes the way that you interact with your prospects and clients to make what you are doing better and more appealing than what your competition is probably doing. Jay: Yeah, such a great point. And back to the idea of focusing on the smaller stuff. I’m weird. I call myself lazy because I want to avoid steps and reduce steps, but in the name of that laziness, I will spend weeks trying to create a system, whether it’s a software system or a planning system or something, just knowing that over the long run, it’s going to have such a dramatic impact. And I can be lazy about that thing after that. And I focus. I mean, if I can reduce one little step, I’ll spend weeks trying to figure out how to do that. David: Yeah. But that’s smart. I don’t think that’s lazy. I think it’s far lazier to just go into each situation, not knowing what’s going to happen, not knowing how to respond to the common objections you get, not knowing how to create a system that will allow you to bring clients through the door like clockwork. And when you do that, you’re basically going into work every day with no idea of what’s going to happen. So I think that’s really lazy and really sloppy and I don’t think what you described is lazy at all. Jay: Well, I don’t, you know, I think you’re probably right, but it is something that drives my wife crazy and it’s really bad. Like when we go grocery shopping, I have a route, and that route has a very specific design. It’s based upon how the groceries are going to end up on the conveyor belt. And that’s important because that determines on how they will go into the bags, because I want the bread on top and all of those things on top. So I have this all planned and thought out from years of experience. It brings me joy, David, it’s, it’s a little, probably obsessive compulsive, but that’s the way I am. David: That’s funny and she still lets you come along. That’s amazing. But it’s a great example though, because when you think about that, and there are two schools of thought when it comes to outcomes, right? You described a more outcome driven approach. And it reminds me of the expression, the road is better than the inn, if you’ve heard that one. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: And I remember hearing that years ago and thinking, no, I kind of like the inn, right? I like, where are we going? Let’s get there. Mission accomplished. Onto the next thing. But there are people who just enjoy the experience. Shopping is a great example of that. I have never been a good shopper. Jay: Mm-hmm. At least before online shopping. I was a terrible shopper. As a kid. My mom would drag me around to different stores and she could just look at stuff for hours. I got bored three minutes in. As a kid, I could go to the toy section and I could look around for a few minutes, maybe see something I liked or whatever. Then I’m done. Right? And people are just wired differently in that regard. But I think if we really get down to the core of it, and we start thinking in terms of creating the systems and processes that will allow you to get results in your business, and tying it again back to our main topic, sequencing your communication, what this will allow you to do is to leapfrog your competition. Because you won’t have to think about each step of it. And it really ties to what you were saying about, you know your process in a store. Well, imagine that in business. Imagine a situation where you create a sequence of communications to send out to the prospects that you want to convert, in a specific order, in a specific sequence, at a specific timeframe. You can automate that as well. And design it to accomplish a result Too often in business because we’re sort of focused all over the place, we’re here, we’re there, we’re everywhere. We think in terms of sending a message out to a prospect and waiting for them to reply. And when they don’t reply. We become confused and annoyed. It’s like, why didn’t they reply? I sent you an email. Why didn’t you reply? And it’s cause that’s not the way the world works anymore. Right? I sent you an email. Yeah, it’d be nice if it were like tennis, where you bat it across the other person bats it across, and you bat it across and you have a nice volley going. That happens sometimes, but more often than not, it’s not happening. And if you’re depending on getting that volley hit back to you right away, you’re setting yourself up for failure. Where instead, if you recognize, you may have to send it across the net 3, 4, 5, 7, 10 times before it gets lobbed back, you’ll be prepared. And if you prep that in advance, you are so far ahead of what your competition is doing. It’s just not even funny. Jay: Yeah, I, have this situation going on right now where somebody has sent me an email inviting me to do something. I don’t know who this person is. I’ve never heard from them, and then I don’t respond. And then like four days later, I get an email that says, Hey, you didn’t respond. And I’m like, Well, that should tell you all you need to know. And then I got another one. I’ve sent you two emails and you haven’t responded. This person is sequencing, but they’re doing it in a horrific way. I mean, by the third email, I’m like, who do you think you are? That you can sit here and demand a response from me? And I don’t even know who you are. The whole thing has soured me. I am never going to call them back based upon that type of sequencing. David: Right. And if that’s the type of sequencing we’re talking about, then yeah, don’t do that. That is not what I’m talking about. It’s interesting you should mention that because over the past several months I have received so many messages from people, pitching guests for this very podcast where they’re saying, Hey, I think you should interview this person who’s talking about this thing, and let me know if that’s of interest to you. You know, I’ve listened to your podcast. I think he’d be a great fit. And most of the time I get, you know, pretty much the same pitch for different speakers. So I’m on some kind of list and I normally ignore them. But they’ve got sequences set up where it’s the second one. Hey, just bumping this up to the top of your inbox again, you know, do you want to consider so-and-so for the podcast? And so finally, I just put together the response that I’m sending to people, which is to say, if you listen to this podcast, you would recognize that we are not an “interview of the week kind of thing.” You know, there are two of us who do this. Jay: Yeah. David: If we were a podcast that had a lot of people on and we were interviewing what you said would make sense, and I don’t get into all that much detail. But they’re basically not pitching the right thing to the right person. And so in those situations, yeah, sequencing is not a great idea. But when you’ve got somebody who is engaged or would like to be engaged and you want to find out whether or not they’re on board with you, when it’s done right… And that ties into the MVPs, the messaging, you know, is the messaging going to be good? Which combination of marketing vehicles you’re using to reach them, and who are the people you’re reaching? If you’ve got those three things in sync, then sequencing is going to work extremely well for you. Jay: So let’s talk a little bit more about. Sequencing. I can guess at a, couple of these things. I’m guessing like so many of the things we’re talking about, you want to start with pen and paper and maybe start identifying who your potential customers are. What are potential, the stages that they might be in, and then start focusing on the messaging for each of those stages. David: Yes. And when we think in terms of the overall stages, or the initial stages, where is this person in the journey? If this is somebody that I just met, let’s say I meet somebody at a networking function. We exchange business cards or whatever, I go back to my office, this person goes back to their office and nothing happens until one of us moves, right? So, If I’ve got a sequence in place that says, all right, when I get a lead from a networking function, what I’m going to do is I’m going to initially, either same day or next morning, send out this email message, which essentially says, it was great meeting you at the networking function. Nice having a chance to talk. And then. you have something that you say and obviously it’s going to be different for each person who’s doing that, but you’ve got something that is said in that email that is designed to elicit a response. So you might want to end that email with a question so that they’re likely to initiate a dialogue. Some will initiate a dialogue, some of them won’t. So from that point, if you don’t hear back, you could have another one that goes out a couple of days later like, with a reply to your own message saying, Hey never heard back you on this, but something else occurred to me that I didn’t mention… and then you add something else to the conversation that could potentially be of interest to them. So you’re not just hitting them with call me, call me, call me, call me. You’re actually creating value in the communication, which is also key to good marketing, but it’s also particularly key when you’re doing sequencing like that. And then the third step in your sequence could be calling to follow up. If they gave you a business card, it could be a phone call that comes whatever, a week later or a certain period of time later, and you decide what that is. In our Total Market Domination course, I mean, we walk through all of this so people can decide, can determine for themselves what is a good timeframe to do this in. Because a lot of times if you get a business card from somebody at a networking function and you forget about it? Or you go to a trade show, that’s the worst! You’re paying to have all these people go out to the trade show. You’re paying to put ’em up, you’re paying to feed them. They bring cards back and they stay in the bottom of their briefcase or their suitcase. And those people never get phone calls. It’s just such an incredible waste. But if you’ve got these processes in place to be able to sequence your communication, to be able to get those people back into the zone that they were in, that first initiated the conversation, then they will be far more likely to respond to you and reply to the conversation and keep it going. Jay: Yeah, it’s interesting. I’m in the heat of this process right now, because as you know, I’m setting up a new business. David: Mm-hmm. Jay: building the CRM behind the scenes and I have to ask myself, what are each of the stages and what do I want to happen? What type of communication? And one of the other parts about that, that is so important is, oftentimes, I know when I’ve been put in somebody’s CRM drip system. Because the messages stop being personal and I’m like, you’re sending this out to everybody. So there’s a fine line between having a sequence and making people feel like, oh, they’ve just been put in the hopper. I think we have a high awareness. And so I think that your sequences need to be a combination of personal contact. And these systems that will save you a lot of time and effort. David: Yes, I agree completely. I also think that the way that those sequences are written is going to determine a lot of that as well. Jay: Yes! David: There are people in business, many of us in business have initially been trained on “corporate speak.” And we write in brochure language, instead of in human language. Jay: Yes. David: A lot of what you just described can be overcome simply by engaging in conversational English, even in the messages that are going out automatically. Even in the automated messages where much of the content will be the same. But the way that you’re conveying it still seems more personal and still feels like it’s coming from another human being as opposed to an auto-generated sequence. Jay: Yeah. David, I love this point. And you know, I’ve discovered a way for me to do this. And that is I’ve started using dictation on the computer a lot. Because I don’t know if people notice if they’re watching the video. I have something called Essential Tremors, which causes me to shake. And it’s getting harder and harder for me to type. So I’ve gone to dictation, but I found if I close my eyes and I act like I’m on the phone with the person when I’m doing the dictation, that brochure speak goes away. And so it’s something I don’t have to give a lot of thought to. It’s just a change in how I’m recording that information. David: Yeah, I do a very similar thing on the treadmill in the morning. I’ve got a, a little digital recorder and I’m on the treadmill and I’m moving and I’m recording. It could be a letter, it could be notes for some sort of presentation I’m going to do. But I will record that and I’ll just stop it every few seconds. If you heard those recordings, it’s a lot of heavy breathing and little bits and pieces. And I’ll say three words and I’ll stop and I’ll try to figure out what the rest of the sentence is, and I’ll say that, and then I’ll just take that whole thing and I’ll get it transcribed. And then at that point I can clean up the words and it’s a hundred times easier than trying to sit down in front of a blinking cursor and figure out what I’m going to say next. Jay: Yeah. And that blinking cursor, it does something to us. It changes how, how we record that information. So I love that piece of feedback when it comes to sequencing. Cool. How do people find out more, David? David: You can go to top secrets.com/call, schedule a call with myself or my team if you are interested in getting better response from people by thinking things out in advance and sequencing your communication so that people are actually looking forward to hearing what you have to say next instead of dreading it, schedule a call. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. David, once again, it’s a pleasure talking to you. David: Thank you so much, Jay. Are You Ready to Start Getting Better Results by Sequencing Your Communication? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

Wondering how to achieve your goals? Well, achieving goals is quite different than just setting them. So while the first step may be to set the goals you really want, then we have to prioritize our actions from high to low. What is the most important thing that I need to do in order to get there? Because generally, you can come up with a dozen or a hundred different things that you’re going to need to do to achieve your goals. But there’s probably one to three things on there that are going to be more important than the other 97. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will discuss how to achieve your goals. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, so glad to be here, David, and once again, I’m looking forward to this discussion. We hear people talk about goals all the time, and I know for me it’s something that I struggle with because what will happen is I’ll set those goals. I really haven’t defined how I’m going to get there, and then when I don’t achieve them, it becomes something that deflates me. So I think for a lot of people, goal setting can work against them. David: I think it can too, because I believe there is a lot of focus on goal setting, and it’s something that we do, particularly at the beginning of a new year. A lot of people focus on their new year resolutions, which are their goals. And while there’s been a lot written about goal setting, the importance of goal setting, writing things down, reviewing it regularly, having your affirmations and things like that. All of those things are certainly helpful, but they don’t actually, directly connect to the idea of how to achieve your goals. And that’s why I wanted to title this the way that I did, because setting your goals has been done to death, but how do you achieve your goals? I think it’s interesting to explore that aspect of this topic. Jay: Well, yeah. And one of the things that frustrates me is, when people talk about goal setting, they tend to assume that everybody’s the same. Oh, just follow this and you’re great. It’s like, I read The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People and what was never mentioned or considered in that was, it was also seven habits for highly organized people already. You had already achieved a level where all you had to do was put these things in place and you’re good. You can achieve your goals. Well, what about me? I wasn’t raised with systems and those kind of things, so what about me? I didn’t feel like there was any place that I could implement that. David: Yeah. And that is very common. I mean, I think everyone probably deals with that because unfortunately, when you’re writing a book that’s going to be on a shelf for a long period of time, you have to include things that are essentially timeless. And The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, I mean, it’s such a great book. It’s a very inspirational read. But when you’ve got rules, like “Be Proactive,” that’s a big, broad rule, right? And in many cases you can be proactive, but what does that mean? It gets down to the nitty gritty. We’ve talked in the past about Michael Gerber, the author of The E-Myth. I love that book. The E-Myth, The E-Myth Revisited. I read the original copy a long, long time ago, and I just loved it, because this was all about processes. And that book talked primarily about the fact that you have to have processes. But then what are those processes, right? Because that’s the part that people like you and I need. It’s like, what are the processes? How do I do that? How do I make that happen? And so much of my career has been focused on that. How do I turn this great recommendation, “be proactive,” you know? Jay: Yeah. David: “Work on your business, not just in your business.” How do I take broad statements like that? To some extent, they become platitudes, and how do I turn that into something that is actionable? Because that is the only way you can ever achieve your goals. You have to be able to convert those great ideas into actionable tasks. Jay: Yeah, such a key point. I think for me, what I found is I have to break it down enough to where I can feel that feeling of success instead of failure. Right? So it’s got to be minute enough to where I can say, okay, I did it. I accomplished something. And it could be something very simple. But that motivates me to the next step. I find if they’re too big, then I’m setting myself up for disappointment. David: Absolutely. But I think anyone who reads any sort of self-help material or business material, if you can take what they’re giving you and then just ask yourself right away, “how do I apply this right now to my business?” Again, Seven Habits, “begin with the end in mind.” Jay: Right. David: I mean, you could find that in a fortune cookie, couldn’t you? It’s brilliant advice, but it’s like, oh, hey, yeah, that’s really great. Now, again, in fairness, because it’s an excellent book… Jay: Yes. David: And he goes into a lot of detail about some different ways that you can do that. But in some sense it has to be general. And that’s why, if you’re able to ask yourself that question, “how do I apply this right now?” It’s going to get you a lot closer to being able to achieve your goals. Because now it’s not about concepts, it’s about you: Your activities, your focus, and what your next step is. Jay: Yeah, so let’s get into a little bit more detail. I’ve asked myself, “how do I accomplish this now?” Is that a list you would write down or how would you recommend people proceed from that point? David: Well, yeah, I think what I would generally want to start with is thinking in terms of resources. What are you going to need to achieve your goals? Okay. because once I’ve written down the goal… say my goal is X amount of dollars in sales by the end of the year. My goal is to sell X number of customers by a certain date. Whatever your thing is, now you’ve got the goal. All right. Well, as I said, the goal is kind of the easy part. Now we need to think in terms of, okay, what are the resources? What are you going to need in order to be able to achieve your goal? Can I do it by myself? Am I going to have to hire additional staff? Hopefully you’re not. But you need to know upfront. Because if you don’t take the time to consider the resources that are needed, versus the resources at your disposal, then you won’t even know if you’re taking actions that are not going to allow you to get to your goal. But if you take the time to think upfront, okay, what are the resources I’m going to need? Who am I going to need? Right? It’s not just about the things. It’s also about the people. Am I going to need additional help with this? And if so, what kind of people am I going to need? There’s an excellent book called Who Not How, by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Ben Hardy. It talks about the fact that when we’re looking to get things done, a lot of times we think in terms of “how am I going to do this?” When in fact we’re often better served by saying, “who can help me with this, who can help me get this done?” And that goes back to the resources. If you have a clear idea of what you’re going to need and who you’re going to need, then it’s going to be a lot easier to achieve your goals. And then ultimately, how much am I going to need? How much am I going to need in terms of resources, in terms of money, in terms of people, in terms of time? Time is always one of those resources that you need to evaluate upfront, and if you don’t do that, you’re never going to get beyond the fortune cookie aspect of what it is we’re talking about here. Jay: Yeah, you’ve kind of brought up negative emotions with me because it reminds me, I grew up in the restaurant business. And before I became an area manager and a regional manager, I remember my area manager coming in every year and we’d have to set sales goals. And so first of all, it was a complete shot in the dark. It was based upon air. Right? Just how much do you want to increase your sales? And second of all, there was never any instruction on how you’re going to do this. And so, how do you do it as a restaurant? I’m not in control of the marketing budget because it was a chain. So what am I going to do? Nobody ever said, well, you can increase your sales by doing A, B, C, and D. They just came in and set this arbitrary goal, and at the end of the year I was beat up because I didn’t reach that goal. And I’m like, this just becomes a bludgeon that creates disappointment. David: Right, because the focus there is on the what. Jay: Yes. David: What is it that I want to accomplish? Just like we’re talking about with goals. This is the goal. Okay. The goal is established very early on. But then every day, every hour preceding that, you need to ask yourself, am I on track? And that’s going to go back to, first of all, do you have a plan in place? Because if you don’t have a plan to achieve your goals, then it’s not going to happen. But then beyond the plan, do I have the resources? Do I have them in place? Am I firing on all thrusters? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: Are we doing the things that we need to do in order to accomplish it? And then also just adapting, recognizing that, let’s say you establish your goals today, you lay out a plan today, and you’re starting on it tomorrow. Well, as soon as you start it, it’s like that old quote, I don’t know if it was Colin Powell, some military general talked about the fact that “no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.” Jay: Yes. David: And it’s the same thing with a goal in business. It’s not going to survive contact with prospects and clients. You set your goal in terms of what you want to reach, but every day you’re going to be taking actions, some of which will work and some of which will not. At which point you need to be able to discern what’s good, what’s bad, what’s working, what’s not, so that you can jettison the stuff that isn’t working, do more of the stuff that is, and ultimately achieve your goals, achieve your objectives. But too often, just like New Year resolutions, we write them down January 1st and we don’t think of them again until December when we realized we’re nowhere close, because we never had the plan in place. We never had the resources in place, and we didn’t take consistent action. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And back to my own example, when I became an area manager, I resolved not to be that guy who put my managers in that place. And so I identified an action plan of how you can increase your sales. Starts with excellent customer service. Who are you putting on the front lines? How do you handle complaints? How do you assess your customer service? Then it went to quality of product. Are you following guidelines? Are you building the product the way that it should be? Is it consistent? So there was a checklist that they could go through and then they would see the results happen. To me, that was empowering as opposed to deflating. David: Yes. When you empower your employees with the specific steps they need to take in order to accomplish the objectives, that’s exactly what they need. Jay: Yes. David: You know, there’s a difference between lead measures and lag measures. I’m sure you’re familiar with that concept as well. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: And our goals are usually lag measures. I want to be able to get to this amount of sales. But what are the lead measures that are going to make that happen? So when you talk about customer service being a first key, and then breaking that down, what does that mean? If you’re answering a phone, how many rings do you have? Do you have to answer it within three rings or 30 rings? Because that’s going to determine the experience of the customer. You can’t control how the customer’s going to feel, but you can control what you do on the front end to at least help to impact that experience. Jay: Yeah, and we had it as much as, you know, I had a really good employee in the back of the house, but not so good with customers, not a very good communicator. So I’d never put him on that interface with customers. It doesn’t mean he couldn’t help me in other places. So being that specific about each of those goals is so important. David: Yeah, I think so too. And I believe you want to start with setting goals that you really want, that are important to you. Because if you don’t have a really solid, great feeling about it, if you don’t have that driving “why” behind it, I really want this because it’s going to allow me more freedom in terms of my time, or it’s going to allow me to spend more time with my family or do more of the things that I want. If your goals don’t motivate you, then once again, you’re going to forget about them very quickly, or the moment some sort of temptation comes up that’s designed to derail you from your focus. So the first thing is you set the goals you really want, then you prioritize them from high to low. What is the most important thing that I need to do in order to get there? Because generally, you can come up with a dozen or a hundred different things that you’re going to need to do to achieve your goals. But there’s probably one to three things on there that are going to be more important than the other 97. So prioritizing is key. After you’ve set the goals, you got to prioritize what is that list of actions, and then it’s a matter of just focusing on each one. And in a previous podcast, we were talking about declaring independence from business as usual, looking at that and saying, I’ve got to be consistent about implementation because if I’m not, there’s no way it’s going to happen. Jay: Yeah and this last one you mentioned, focusing on getting them done. This is where so many times it falls down. And where if you do have a staff, you can really destroy your credibility. Because again, back to my own experience, company rolls out a new company-wide goal. For three days they’re pounding it and watching it. On day four, and forward? You never hear about it again. That teaches everybody that we just have to stay in line for a couple of days. Then it’s going to disappear. So you’re actually working against yourself at that point. It’s something I resolve to never do. You have to have systems of follow up. You can’t just say, “oh, we’ll follow up.” Have dates, have benchmarks, have things that are built in to help you track where you’re at at all times. David: Right, and just because they stopped talking to you about it after day four doesn’t mean they’re not going to hold you accountable for it. Jay: True. David: They’re still going to hold you accountable for it 362 days later, right? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: They’re going to say, “Hey, we talked about this. Why didn’t you hit it?” It’s like, “oh, are we still doing that? I forgot about that. That was, that was a long time ago.” Jay: Yeah. Absolutely. Again, I love this discussion, David, how can people find out more? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. We love having conversations like this with smart, focused, bright business people who are not just interested, but committed to achieve your goals and get to the next level in your business. If you’re just interested, it’s like, “oh, it’s kind of cool. It’s kind of interesting, maybe.” No, forget it. Because that’s not going to get you there. But if you’re serious, if you listen to these podcasts, particularly if you’ve been listening for a long time, if you haven’t scheduled a call yet, do it today. Now’s the time to do it. TopSecrets.com/call. We’ll have a conversation. You’ll love it or you won’t love it. If we’re five minutes in and you say, this isn’t going anywhere. Perfectly fine with that. It hasn’t happened so far, but it could. So you don’t have to feel like you’re locked into anything. If the call does not have value for you, then we’ll drop it. But if you’re open to the idea that there are better ways of doing things that will allow you to achieve your goals and generate more sales in less time, then schedule a call. Jay: Yeah, set a goal to call right now and then follow up on your goal. David: Execute, right? Jay: That’s right. Thanks David. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Achieve Your Goals? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

If you want to increase revenue, upselling and cross-selling can help. So what’s the difference? Upselling means selling a better or a higher priced version of the thing that they’re looking at. Whereas cross-selling is making a recommendation of something that’s compatible. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the topic of upselling and cross-selling. Are you doing it? Welcome back, Jay Jay: Yeah, hey, thank you, David. Listen, have these bad memories when I was a kid and I was working in a fast food place and the manager was always pressing me, “ask them if they want a Coke, ask them if they want fries.” And I got to a point where it’s hard to upsell and I think this has grown into my adulthood. You know, I just barely got the sale and now I’m asking them for more. It’s not an easy thing to do for people. David: You know, it’s interesting you should mention the fast food example because it’s the perfect example. It’s the one that everyone can relate to. “You want fries with that?” Jay: Yeah. David: Or the shortened version that you hear a lot of times, “want fries with that,” as the four word upsell. And it works extremely successfully for people in that sort of industry. Because it makes sense. Somebody’s coming in, they’re ordering whatever, a burger or something, or they’re ordering a burger and a drink, “want fries with that” makes perfect sense. And some percentage of time they’re going to say yes. And whether that is 1% of the time or 80% of the time, it’s probably maybe 30 to 60% of the time, I would guess, they’re going to say yes. Because it’s like, “oh, all right, sure. Why not? I’m already here.” Jay: Yeah. David: And you hit on a great point, which is that we can feel funny about upselling, if we feel like the purpose is to simply get more money out of a person. If it feels like it’s completely one-sided, if it feels like it’s manipulative, then we’re not going to want to do it. So I personally believe that the times that we should upsell and cross-sell are the times when we truly believe that we have an additional solution that is going to be better for them. Now, in the fast food example, are french fries better for you on top of the Coke and the hamburger? Jay: Yes! David: Probably not from a, health level, but certainly from a satisfaction level, yeah, it’s better. People are likely to want that. But in business, if you’re selling something, and somebody comes to you and they have something very specific they want to buy, and you have something that would be complimentary to that, or something that would go with that really well and would increase the value to the buyer, then you kind of owe it to them to at least ask them if they’re interested in that. Jay: Mm, I love that. I love that idea that if you are feeling uncomfortable, maybe you should ask yourself why. And how do you feel about your product? Are you really providing a value to them or are you just trying to sell something and get a paycheck, right? And I think we all have to ask that question about our own careers and what we’re doing and what we’re selling. But, you know, if you can just feel great that what you’re providing them is going to improve their situation, then you’re just passionate about what you’re doing and that’s going to come through. David: Yeah. So when you are talking to somebody like that, if you’ve got something that is actually going to be a benefit to them, if it’s going to help them, then it’s a lot easier to do it. So that really just boils down to motives. What is the motive? And unfortunately, I think sometimes managers, like in the situation you described in the fast food restaurant, the manager says, “just do this. Ask them if they want this. Push it, push it, push it. Sell, sell, sell.” When instead, if the manager had said to you, Hey, listen, when people come in here, they’re hungry. They want something good. You know, they’ve ordered this, they’ve ordered that other thing, so they might want it and maybe they didn’t think of it. You might want to suggest that. Maybe they want dessert, maybe they want an apple pie at the end, right? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: Apple pie. I’m saying yes to an apple pie, right? And if you don’t ask, you don’t get, and it’s very easy for them to say no. Now, there are situations, and I’ve heard it referred to, particularly in online situations, where there are online upsells where you buy something and then it asks you if you want to buy this and you want to buy that and you want to buy this. Yeah, I’ve heard people refer to that as upsell hell. Now, if you get somebody involved in that, then that’s not good. But if you make a recommendation that makes sense for them, then I think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I also have heard this, you know, back to the fast food example, when the person who’s embarrassed to do it, they say, my manager wants me to ask you if you, and I’m like, oh, that’s just the worst situation. But I think, you know, I’ve also had like servers say, ” you should try this because it’s really good.” David: Yeah. Jay: And that’s different, right? That doesn’t sound like an upsell. That doesn’t feel like an upsell. So how you go about it, and are you passionate about it? Do you really believe that? David: Right. Jay: That makes all the difference. David: When my son was traveling, he was in Italy with some of his friends and they went out for dinner one night and they went into this restaurant and the waiter was very happy to see them. Americans there to spend money, and the waiter came over to take for order and one of the guys ordered chicken and he said, “no, no, no, no. You don’t want the chicken. It’s terrible here, get the steak,” right? Now there’s an example of an upsell, I guess. Jay: Yeah, David: Upsold them from the chicken to the steak. The steak was a lot more expensive. Was the chicken there really terrible? I have no idea. But he presented it in a way that made them think, all right, I’ll get the steak. And it was entertaining, too. So I think there are ways of engaging in this type of behavior where if it’s not manipulative, and it actually gets them a better result than you might as well do it. You know, another thing I think that people should consider is that when it comes to upsells and cross cells, it’s not something that always just has to take place at the immediate point of purchase. I mean, obviously that’s a great time to do it, but if someone buys something from you… in the promotional products industry, I mean the, examples are kind of easy. Somebody buys t-shirts or sweatshirts, “want caps with that,” right? Would be the equivalent of french fries. And you can ask and they can say yes or they can say no, whatever it is. But if you don’t do it at the point of sale, you could contact them back maybe a few weeks, a month later. Hey, I just wanted to let you know we just got this new product in. I think it would go perfectly with those shirts you got. Would you be interested in having a look at that? Right? And that’s an example of an upsell or a cross-sell that could take place later. So it’s not like, If you didn’t do it the first time, you can never do it again. There are plenty of opportunities to do that throughout the sales cycle. Jay: Yeah, I agree. And the other thing, I’ve seen some research and it’s something that I’ve implemented that has helped me get over the upsell thing, is that research that I’ve seen shows that the time when people are most willing to spend more with you is when they just spent with you. And that seems counterintuitive, right? Like, I just got this money out of you. You just spent money and you’re willing to spend more. That doesn’t feel exactly right. David: Yeah, but again, if you go back to the fast food example, it does make perfect sense. I’m getting this and I’m getting that. Do I want this too? Yeah, sure, why not? So there is that aspect of it. Now, outside the fast food example, it might not be quite as obvious and there might not be as much of a connection. But once again, I think if we get beyond the idea of selling product, and we get more into the idea of satisfying the customer, what is the customer looking to get from this experience? So in a promotional products example, am I looking to buy shirts? Not so much. I’m looking to buy awareness of my business. Maybe I’m looking to have people wear this thing and have people see it and recognize my business. Perhaps I’m looking for a sense of affinity, that the people who wear it feel good about my company. So there are very deep things that I could be looking for in this purchase. And so if I’m able to connect my additional recommendations, my upsells and my cross cells to those types of things, the things that motivated them to want to do it in the first place, then they’re going to be a lot more likely to say yes. But they’re also going to be a lot more likely to appreciate the fact that you thought about what they actually want and you’re trying to deliver it to them. Jay: Yeah, and then you’re avoiding that salesperson feeling and you’re more like a consultant, as we’ve talked about so many times in these podcasts. I think the other thing that you have to remember, just from a pure business standpoint, we talk about customer acquisition costs a lot, and if you can upsell somebody, That’s product on top of your initial acquisition cost. And then if you can cross-sell them, take your existing lead database and cross-sell them into other products, that by far is a better way to do business than constantly having to find new customers and always paying that cost to get those new customers in the door. David: Yeah, absolutely. One of the other things that we’ve done in our training is also suggesting to salespeople that when they’re recommending a product to the customer, you don’t always have to recommend the lowest priced option. Now, there are a lot of customers who are like, I just want the cheapest, I want the cheapest thing. But a lot of times the cheapest thing is not the best option. It’s going to fall apart, or the logos are going to rub off, or it’s not going to be the best thing. So another thing we can do, and this isn’t really related to upselling or cross-selling, but one of the things you can do is you can start out offering something that has a higher value that is a, a better product, a more high-end product, and let them say to you, “no, I want something cheaper.” Right? Because if you don’t do that, and you’re successful in selling them the cheapest thing, congratulations. You could have had this better sale and the customer could have had a better product. So that’s, as I said, not directly related to upselling and cross selling, but when you’re thinking in terms of, “well, what would I do or what would I like?” A lot of times we are more sensitive about other people’s money than they are. And we’re more likely to recommend something that’s cheap, just for the sake of getting the sale, rather than thinking what’s going to serve this person best in terms of what they’re looking to accomplish. Jay: Yeah, I think that’s a great line, that we’re more concerned about their money than they are. Again, looking at research and looking at our own behavior, I think sometimes we feel that if it costs more, it’s going to be better. If it’s cheap, it’s going to be worse. So oftentimes charging a premium, or at least giving them that option, makes them feel like they’re getting something of value. And I’ve seen situations where people didn’t sell very much of a product at a really low price point. So what did they do? Instead of lowering it, they raised it and it actually brought in more sales. There’s a lot of psychology involved in this, but it’s absolutely true and I think the bottom line, if you don’t ask, it’s not going to happen, right? David: Yeah. And also just to clarify real quickly, because we didn’t do this upfront, when I think in terms of upselling versus cross-selling, what’s the difference? Upselling to me means selling a better or a higher priced version of the thing that they’re looking at. Whereas cross-selling is making a recommendation of something that’s compatible. So the hamburger to french fries, that would be more of a cross-sell. An upsell would be upselling from a hamburger to a Big Mac, right? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: So you’re getting a bigger, better version of the thing that they were looking at. And so again, we’re talking about this in industries where people are selling, not just behind the counter taking orders. So when you think about that, if somebody is looking at investing in whatever t-shirts, well, maybe they would like to get the heavyweight, hundred percent cotton rather than the promotional weight 50/50. Maybe they would like to get multiple colors on there, that type of thing. That would be an upsell. Whereas a cross sell would be, you know, want caps, that type of thing. Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And just talking about promotional products, I can tell a difference when it’s a nice shirt or when it’s just like the cheapest. And so that’s some way that I could use to upsell somebody. Because if you’re putting your name and your logo on it, and it’s not very good quality, you’re sending a message, right? And so that’s a way that I think you can help people understand that it’s important that they consider those types of things. David: Yes. And one thing that you will find out for sure is that if you’re selling promotional products and you sell something cheap to a customer and they buy it and it’s not good, they’re not going to blame themselves. They’re going to say, why did you sell me this shirt? Well, you told me you wanted something cheap. Well, not that cheap. Not so cheap that it is going to be terrible. Oh, I didn’t know. Right? So… Jay: That goes back to the don’t buy the chicken, it’s terrible. Get the steak. Right? David: Exactly. Yeah. Jay: Yeah. Which again, great example, because if I heard that, I’m like, wow, this person cares about me. I’m not thinking, wow, this person wants me to spend more money, right? So it’s all in the attitude and how you convey it. David: Yeah. Jay: All right. How do people find out more? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. We would be happy to walk you through this stuff. If you’re struggling to increase the average value of your orders, if you’re struggling to bring more customers through the door, or you just need somebody to talk to about how to make things better in your business, TopSecrets.com/call, we would love to have that conversation with you. Jay: Well, and I love our conversations, David. Thank you so much for your time today. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Integrate Upsells & Cross-Sells to Increase Value and Help Customers? If so, check out a few ways we can help: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

How much time do you spend chasing prospects who will never buy? If somebody is not responsive, you can decide, do I want to continue to pursue this person? Or do I want to leave them to my competitors? Let my competitors chase that person. If they’re disqualified, you don’t have to spend time with them at all. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will discuss the idea of converting more sales: turning leads into customers. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. Such a pleasure to be with you. This is kind of the secret sauce, right? I mean, if we could all increase our conversion rates and bring down our customer acquisition costs that’s where the rubber meets the road. David: Yeah, in a lot of cases it’s a really critical part of it. I think some people make a mistake upfront when it comes to conversion. They want to try to convert everyone. You know, they just meet somebody for the first time and they immediately go into sales mode. And I think that they can really save themselves and other people a lot of time and a lot of aggravation if they actually start where it really should begin with a little bit of qualification. Trying to find out if they have the need, the desire, the money, the budget, the willingness to spend, those kind of things. Because a lot of times there are salespeople who will spend weeks, months, years pursuing somebody, just to find out once they get an appointment with them that they weren’t qualified to buy to begin with. And you can eliminate that right up front. Save yourself a world of heartache. Jay: Yeah, I love this point, David. I can’t tell you I’ve had this happen, you know, I’m on the phone with somebody and talking about the product and things like that, and then after asking some questions, I realize this is not a good fit. I don’t have the services they’re looking for. And I could have saved us both a lot of time if I had done a little pre-qualification before we got started. David: Yeah. Or if that’s happening on the first call, then you’re pretty good at that point. But literally, I know there are people who have gone to networking functions for a long period of time, and they’re talking to people and trying to get them to agree to an appointment, and then they finally agree to the appointment, and then you get out there and you’re talking to them. I had this experience myself early in my career. I’ll never forget it. There was this guy and I thought he was going to be a great prospect, so I tried to get an appointment with him. He agreed to the appointment. I showed up at his place. His place was a dump and he didn’t show up for the appointment, and I was sitting there looking around and I was thinking, “okay, why am I here?” And so a little bit of diligence upfront and a little bit of qualifying goes a long way. Jay: Yeah, I agree. And I also think technology can do a lot of that pre-qualifying, right? We had the experience where our Google ad buy was not targeting the right people. And so I was getting all these calls and I’m like, “wow, look at these leads we’re getting.” And it turned out I was just wasting time. So I’m wasting money on the Google ad buy. And then I’m wasting money fielding all of these calls. That’s just, you’re spinning your wheels at that point. David: Yeah, absolutely. And when you think about it, pitching unqualified prospects is the single biggest time waster on the planet. So if we can avoid that, we’re going to be a lot better off. Jay: Yeah. I think there’s a tendency though to think, “oh, we can sell anybody.” Or I think the other side of that is if you’re not pre-qualifying, then you don’t have a really good idea of how effective you are as a salesperson, because you’re comparing it to every person you talked to. Like, I’ve talked to a hundred people, my close rate was 20%. Well, if 5% of those were never going to be a lead for you, or never going to be a customer, then you’re not really using accurate numbers. Right? David: Yeah, exactly. Everything’s skewed when you’re doing it that way. So, I mean, I believe qualification upfront is really important and systematic follow up is another thing. If you’re not following up systematically with people, which means that you are in touch with them at the times when you need to be in touch with them, then you’re also going to be at a big disadvantage. Jay: Yeah. and that’s really an area where I struggled a long time ago, and that is if I didn’t get them right away, then I’m going to move on to the next person. David: Mm-hmm. Jay: And like you said, it’s about relationships. And again, I love technology that can do a lot of this stuff for you, drip campaigns and those kind of things. David: Right. Jay: But because somebody down the road, they don’t need you now, that doesn’t mean they’re not going to need you in the future. David: Yeah, and so if you’ve qualified them and you know that they would still be a good prospect for what you’re selling, then at that point you want to make sure that you’ve got something in place, whether it’s inside a crm, however it is that you’re doing, so that you know that you are in touch with them until they’re ready to buy from you. And when we talk about systematic follow up, it goes far beyond the, “are we there yet” approach that a lot of people take where it’s like when you’re traveling in a car with small kids and they keep saying, “are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?” And there are some salespeople who do that. They just call and say, “Hey, you want to buy, you ready to buy? You ready to buy? Are we there yet?” And that’s not what I mean by systematic and or strategic follow up. Jay: Yeah. I think part of that is you start to seem desperate, right? And I think what we need to avoid, and I’m really learning this, is the feeling that I’m a salesperson and they’re a potential lead. If they feel like I’m a salesperson, then I’ve already lost kind of the battle, right? So, whereas if I’m a consultant, if I’m somebody who can help them grow, if I’m somebody who they have a relationship with, who they feel really cares about them, then that’s a real advantage. But if they just feel like this is sales to potential client relationship, that’s a much harder road to go down. David: It definitely is. And when we think about it, you know, once you’ve qualified somebody and you’ve got your follow up in place and you’re interacting with them. You know, part of the deal then is persuasion. You know, what are we saying that is going to entice this person to want to move forward? Essentially, are we hitting their hot buttons? What are their hot buttons? What are the things that are motivating them to either take action or not take action? Because if you’re not doing that, once again, you’re going to have a lot of difficulty converting. Jay: Hmm. Yeah. This kind of goes back to the pre-qualifying you talked about. You’re not just finding out if they’re a fit for your product. You’re finding out what their specific needs are. Because how often have you been in or anybody been involved in. I’m pitching a sales strategy to them and it doesn’t meet their needs. And what I’ve done is I’ve conveyed to them that I didn’t listen or that I don’t know their business. There’s nothing worse, in my opinion, if somebody’s trying to sell me something and they haven’t taken the time to really figure out who I am, what my needs are, what is my business model? That can really be a detractor to the process. You can lose the sale if you are going down the wrong path. David: Yeah, you definitely need to keep it focused on them. A lot of times we make the mistake of talking about ourselves and our product and our capabilities and how great we are and it’s like, you’ve lost me at hello. When you do that. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve been there like with somebody else and we walked in the door and we were both supposed to be part of the sales process and before there’s even a hello, they’re like diving into the product and opening the book and this is what we have and what we have. And. I’m just like you got to at least take a few minutes to set some baseline relationship and ask some questions and pre-qualify even there, if you’ve pre-qualified them before you’ve arrived. I think that pre-qualify is really, I think there is a pre part, but there’s a constant requalifying that happens as you go along. David: Absolutely, and people are constantly cycling through the five levels of qualification. Sometimes they’re ready to buy right now. Other people have specific dates in mind. Still others are open to it. They’re generally receptive. Sometimes they’re disqualified, and sometimes they’ll just ghost you. They’re just unresponsive. When you recognize that they’re five essential levels, then you know exactly how to follow up with each one, and it becomes a lot more systematic. Jay: Yeah, and I love that you’ve broken these things down into different levels. Because that makes it really easy to classify. And that’s the problem is you may have a sense that you want to do this, but you really don’t know which buckets to put people in. What are those buckets? If you can have a system where you’re not giving a lot of thought, you’re just like, boom, this one goes here, this one goes there, then you can spend more time working on the right buckets, I’m guessing. Right? David: Exactly. Because if somebody is not responsive, you can decide, do I want to continue to pursue this person, or do I want to leave them to my competitors? Let my competitors chase that person. If they’re disqualified, you don’t have to spend time with them at all. But if you focus on those first three buckets, the ones who are ready now, the ones who have specific dates and the ones who are generally receptive, you’re going to be a lot better off. Now the ones who are generally receptive. The goal there is then to find out, well, when are they planning on moving forward? When will they be ready to buy? And a good way to do that is through sequencing, which would be another step in this process is to say, we’re going to put out a series of communications, drip campaign, whatever you want to call it, that is designed to be in front of them when they’re ready to buy. Even if we don’t know exactly when that’s going to be. Jay: Yeah, because that can be hard to project. I mean, I know with promotional products there’s a seasonality, but it could also be based upon their product releases, right? They’ve got a new piece of software coming out, or they’ve got a new special or something like that. So it can be very business oriented. They may not know when they need it until the day before. Right? Or the day of, the way I see some people run their businesses. David: That’s true. And there are a lot of times where we’re in touch with someone for a long time and we’re not hearing back from them. And then we sort of give up for a while. We wander off, we do something else, we pursue other people, and then we come back and we find out they bought from someone else.ry Jay: Mm-hmm. David: And it’s cause we didn’t have these sequences of communication in place for the people who are actually worthy of them. Now again, if somebody’s totally ghosting you. then I don’t know that you even want to do that. Because if they’re not going to be responsive to you, when they’re thinking about buying something, how are they going to be when they need to pay their bills, right? Jay: Yeah. Yeah. David: So you need to balance this, but if they seem like a good prospect, if they’ve been qualified upfront, if you have been following up systematically and you’ve been able to determine that there is a good fit, you’ve been able to exercise a little bit of persuasion and keep yourself in front of them, then at that point it could very easily convert into a sale. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I love this. This is great feedback and great instruction. How do people find out more, David? David: Well, you can go to TopSecrets.com/call, schedule a call with my team. We can walk you through this stuff. If you’re thinking about where you’re stuck, you’re not quite sure where that is, you’d like to have a conversation… TopSecrets.com/call. We would be happy to have that conversation with you. Jay: Well, and I love it. Just sometimes talking about it is important. But there’s not a reason to reinvent the wheel. You’ve got these systems ready, and sometimes that’s just perfect for people, right? David: I was literally talking to someone the other day who’s been in the industry for a really long time, and she was asking a question about what to say when someone says they already have somebody they’re working with. And I was thinking to myself, “you’ve been in this industry a long time, like you need to have an answer for that.” Jay: Yeah. David: And a lot of what we do with our clients is we have this type of stuff in place so that when you get a really common objection, you have a very specific response that you know works. And without that kind of thing, you can be spinning your wheels for a really long time. Jay: Oh yeah. I love that. I love it. David I hope people check it out. And as always, it’s great talking to you. David: You too, Jay. Thank you. Are You Ready to Stop Chasing Prospects Who Will Never Buy from You? If so, check out a few ways we can help you make it happen: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

Unqualified prospects can be a huge waste of time. Lately, I’ve been on a bit of a kick in terms of commitment versus interest. If you’re interested in the possibility of working with us, that’s very different than if you’re committed to getting the results you want in your business and working with us to do it. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the pursuit of unqualified prospects. Welcome, Jay! Jay: Hey, it’s so great to be here again, David, and I always love the topics that we get into. I think usually, I’m in pursuit of just any prospect. I don’t give a lot of thought to are they qualified, are they not? It’s like, just send me all the leads and I’ll sort through it. I’m sure I’m wasting a lot of time doing that. David: It’s funny, isn’t it? It’s like just looking for warm bodies. Anybody who can fog a mirror, right? And to some extent, that’s part of every process. Because we really don’t know who’s qualified and who’s not until and unless we have a qualification procedure in place to figure that out. Or if we just get good at it from having conversations and hearing what people say. So I think you’re right. I think no one really sets out to pursue unqualified prospects. But to some extent, we all do it every day. Jay: Yeah, exactly. I will tell you that as a company, we’ve done some things. when we first started using Google ads. It was crazy. I mean, we were getting so many responses. And then after taking all of these leads and calls, we realized that 90% of them were not good. Because, our key words that we were using for Google were bringing us the wrong type of client that we couldn’t help and that we couldn’t close. So once we just did something as simple as figure out our keywords, wow, that saved us a lot of time and money. David: It really helps to dial it in, doesn’t it? When you’re more specific and it, you’re right. It could be the difference of one additional parameter, one additional thing that you’re saying in the messaging that you’re putting out there. Because all of that’s going to contribute to the type of people who respond to your ads when we’re talking about leading with advertising. Jay: Yeah, exactly. The other thing we found is a seasonality to it, and you and I have talked about seasonality a lot when it comes to sales. But we’ve found that the same keywords don’t work the same all year long, that there’s different motivations that things change. And so, we’re kind of starting to keep track of that now for the first time, and I’m excited. You know, we probably won’t reap the benefits of that until next year. But that’s how far ahead we have to be, to know when and how to start pivoting and adjusting. David: Yeah, I can see exactly how that could be the case. And it’s something that you discover through doing it, right? Through iterations. You try different things and you say, Hey, this isn’t working. This used to work. What’s the reason for that? So a lot of it too is sometimes talking to people. One of the things that we’ve done for a long time is when people make a decision not to work with us, or sometimes, if someone expresses interest in working with us, but then doesn’t follow through, we’ll reach out to those people and find out. “Hey, it looks like you were thinking about contacting us. Looks like you were maybe thinking about scheduling a strategy session with us. You didn’t do it. What was it that held you back? And the answers you get from that can be extremely helpful in terms of finding out what might also be holding other people back. Jay: Yeah. That is so powerful. I think sometimes people are afraid. They’ve turned you down and they’re afraid that if you make another phone call you’re going to be bothersome to them. But if you do it in the right approach, or it can even be done in a form, a survey after the fact. You know, some way to kind of gather and harness that information. Something really obvious might rise to the top and you’re like going, “oh my goodness, why didn’t we think about that? It should have been so easy for us to see,” but we get that tunnel vision so often. David: Yeah, and everything’s obvious in hindsight, right? Once we figured it out, I was like, “oh, of course. How did I not know that?” You know, one of the things, too, that I think about unqualified prospects is that they’re everywhere. Right? They are everywhere. And I know one of the early mistakes that I made in my business was assuming that everybody was going to be qualified until they proved otherwise. And that’s a tough mistake to make, too. Jay: Yeah, totally. I mean, you have to be proactive about this process. If you’re letting them decide if they’re qualified, well then again, you’re going through a pile of paper, a pile of leads, whatever it is, and you’re honestly just wasting time and time is money. And if you can get that down to where, your close rate you know, instead of one out of a hundred, you can get, five out of 20 because you’ve got 20 good leads instead of a hundred anybodies. That could change your whole life. It could change your whole business with just that one simple adjustment. David: Yeah. And numbers like that frequently do. They change everything. They change your life, they change your business, they change the number of sales you’re going to make. They change everything. And when we look at it, and think in terms of the fact that, yeah, we have to determine if somebody’s qualified to do business with us. But on the flip side, they are also deciding whether or not we are qualified to do business with them. So as you pointed out, sometimes people think they’re qualified. They think that perhaps they want to do business with us. But then when we have questions, when we ask them some things, we may determine that it’s not a good fit on our side. It has to go both ways. One of the things that I’ve always maintained is that when two parties to an agreement want to put something together, they will figure out a way to do it. But if one of them doesn’t, it’s not going to happen. If you and I are talking about putting something together and we’re both pretty excited about the idea, we’ll make it happen. But even if he or she’s not saying it, if one of us doesn’t want to make it happen, there will be excuses. Things will come up and it just won’t end up happening. So when you realize that and you say, “okay, well these people think they’re qualified to do business with me, I’m either going to have a conversation with them or not.” I mean, if you can determine that somebody’s not qualified ahead of time, you can potentially avoid a conversation. Normally, if somebody is excited about doing business with us, we want to at least have the conversation. But very early on in those conversations, you can usually figure out whether or not it’s going to be a fit. And if is, then great. You move forward and you work with them. And if it’s not, you determine that as early as possible. Then you either recommend another solution for them, or everybody just sort of moves on and goes from there. Jay: Yeah. This is such a unique and powerful, perspective. David, I was talking to a financial planner the other day and I was asking him, “so what is your criteria for a new client?” And he said, “well, we sit them down and we interview them to see if they meet our standards for a new client. I was sitting there going, wait a minute, you interview them? Isn’t it supposed to be the other way around? That they’re assessing you to see if you’re good for their business? And he’s like, “No, we decided years ago exactly what our potential client looks like. We know who we can help and who we can’t. And if we choose the wrong client, then both sides are going to be dissatisfied because we didn’t do the work upfront to see, like you said, if there’s going to be a cohesive, kind of gel between the two parties. David: Right. And the other reason that I think he’s right is that we can only ever decide if we feel that someone is qualified to do business with us. We can’t decide it the other way. So if you think about it from the standpoint of a financial planner, yeah, they need to decide is this person going to be a good fit for us? Do they have enough money to invest? Do they have a similar philosophy to the way that we operate? And if those answers are yes, then it makes sense to work together. On the other side, the client is thinking, “okay, is this person on the same wavelength as me? Am I going to trust this person with my money?” But those are the decisions that that person gets to make, right? The client makes a decision. And the organization, the salesperson makes a decision. They both have to come to positive decisions if they’re ever going to move forward. And the thing is, we can’t decide for the person. We can try to convince or persuade them to do business with us. But generally, it’s far easier to find people who you resonate with and who resonate with you so that you can just put it together. Everything becomes a whole lot easier when you’re on the same page. Like I said, when two people want to do business together, they’ll figure out a way to do it. Jay: Yeah. An d it’s because, you know, and we’ve talked about this so much, it’s about relationships. no matter how you slice it, there’s going to be a long-term relationship between the two of you. It is going to be about more than just picking up the phone and calling you. It’s going to be, “Hey, how’s it going?” There’s going to be understanding of each other’s lives and each other’s needs. I will tell you another point is I’m getting really good, because I spent so much time on the phone, at figuring out which clients are going to be so demanding that they will be problematic well through the process. And so I’m getting good at assessing, whether or not, I want to just say, “you know what, we probably can’t suit your situation, but there are some other options out there. Have a nice day.” Because if even on the first phone call they’re that way, well imagine how they’re going to get through the ordering process and through all of those things, I just don’t want to deal with the headaches. And often I’m going to end up giving them a refund anyway, because I couldn’t make them happy. And so, you know, I’m realizing and starting to understand that I need to be picky about who I bring into our business and who we decide to service. David: Yeah, no question. Because like you said, if they’re not going to be pleasant on that initial call, how are they going to be when it’s time to collect on what they purchase from you? If you’re going to have to go chase them for money, if they’re rude when you’re just meeting them for the first time, imagine how they’ll be when they owe you money? But one of the things that I tend to think of, when we think in terms of unqualified prospect, well, what does it mean? You know, to me it means… Unqualified people are the people who don’t have the need, the desire, the money, the budget, the willingness to spend, right? Because, and it’s kind of in that order, if they don’t have the need or the desire, then they’re not going to do it. If they don’t have the money, then they can’t do it. If they have a budget, but they don’t have a willingness to spend, right? Some people say they’ll do something, but then just won’t spend the money. I mean, these are all sort of different things, but they all tie together. They’re all related, and they determine whether or not somebody is actually qualified to do business with us. One of the other things I look at is if they’re rude, obnoxious, belligerent, uncommunicative. Woo. That’s a big one. And it didn’t used to be, for me. In the early stages of my business, if people were not rude, not obnoxious, if they were personable or whatever, I would really pursue them to the ends of the earth. But if they weren’t communicative, it kind of kills all the rest of it. And so I’m certainly at a point now where even if somebody is nice and pleasant and they seem interested in wanting to do something, if they don’t communicate, I tend not to pursue anymore. Because if I have to chase somebody to remain engaged and remain interested and we end up doing business together, am I going to have to try to chase them to do the things they’ll need to do to get the results they want in their business? Because I can’t do that either, right? And so there needs to be that reciprocal level of interest and willingness to communicate. Lately, I’ve also been on a bit of a kick in terms of commitment versus interest. If you’re interested in the possibility of working with us, that’s very different than if you’re committed to getting the results you want in your business and working with us to do it. Some people are interested in the idea of growing their sales. They’re interested in the idea of getting more customers. Interest is not going to cut it until you get to the point where you are absolutely committed to the idea of growing your sales and profits, growing your customer base, finally hitting the level of sales that you wished you would’ve hit years ago. Until you reach that level of commitment to say, “okay, I’m going to take action. I’m going to do this.” Then all the interest in the world is really, nothing. Jay: Yeah, really wasted. And, one final point that I’d like to make is that, you mentioned, you know, maybe it’s because they can’t afford it right now. Maybe it doesn’t fit into their plan. Maybe they don’t necessarily fit the perfect model. These are not lost people. These are people that you can put in your drip program from your customer management system. And I’ve had this happen. I had it happen to me two days ago. I get an order out of nowhere and I’m like, “I don’t even remember talking to this guy.” And I pull up my system and I’m all, I talked to him eight months ago. He said he probably was not going to use our service. I threw him into my drip program and he received emails from us every month. And then when the time came, he’s finally ready. Now he became a customer. So it’s not like these conversations that we have are a waste of time if it’s the situation where they can’t afford it right now, they see the point, but it just doesn’t work for them. Those are still prospects. David: Yeah, absolutely. And so when they move from interested to committed or when they… well, even there, I would still say that if they don’t have the money right now and they’re committed to doing it, then we’ve got somebody that is going to be a good quality prospect. If you have somebody who’s mildly interested, they don’t have the money now, well, they may have the money later, but if they’re not committed to the process, they’re still not going to spend it. So I think we’re on the same page. I think maybe we just look at it a little differently in terms of who’s interested in and who’s actually committed. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. So how do people find out more? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. If you are looking to get to the kind of prospects that you need, if you’re looking to be able to qualify those prospects as quickly as possible, and jettison the ones who are not good quality prospects for you. A lot of times the reason that people don’t make the sales that they want to make is that they spend too much time pursuing unqualified prospects. So one of the things that we do in our Total Market Domination course is we give you a process for being able to do that as quickly as possible. You know, speed of implementation is key. If I can get somebody qualified in or out. Within the first conversation, that’s a whole lot better than if I have multiple meetings, multiple phone calls, and then four months later I determine this person isn’t a good fit. So if any of this resonates with you, and if you’d like to have a conversation, TopSecrets.com/call. Love to have the conversation. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. David, as always, it’s a pleasure talking to you. David: Thanks. You too, Jay. Ready to Stop Wasting Time on Unqualified Prospects? If so, check out a few ways we help promotional product distributors grow their sales & profits: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

To stand out from competitors, start with what makes you different. Identify your ideal target market. It’s largely going to consist of people who want to do business the way that we do business. Then matching up our style of business with the way that they want to do it. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will ask the question, what makes you different? Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Thank you for asking me to be with you again. David. I love this question. Because if we don’t know what makes us different, I think it becomes harder to sell or to present yourself or anything else. Knowing your strengths and weaknesses, and playing to your strengths is key. That’s obviously something we should be doing. But I’ve met a lot of people who don’t have self-awareness. They wouldn’t be able to answer this question. So they don’t really know where to focus and they’re kind of haphazard. David: Yeah. In the promotional products industry in particular, people struggle with this. You have all these distributors who are essentially representing very similar lines of product. Often it’s the same lines of product from the same manufacturers. So a lot of people look at that and say, “how can I be different if I’m selling exactly the same products as all the other people that I’m competing with?” And if you ask that question in a rhetorical sense, “how can I possibly do it?” You’re doing it wrong. You need to actually ask yourself that question in a way where you demand results of yourself. Sit down and bullet point it out. What is it that makes me different? What could make me different? Many times I ask the question in live seminars. I say, what differentiates you from your competition? Sometimes people will shout things out and somebody will say service, right? And I’ll say, who here feels their service differentiates them and sets them apart? 40% of the hands in the room go up! And I say, okay, keep ’em up and look around. Can you all be right? Can your service differentiate you from the other people who have their hands in the air? And it’s kind of a rhetorical question, but the answer kind of has to be yes. It has to be yes. I have to be able to differentiate myself in a way that justifies my existence in the market. And so I can be different. I can be different than you. We can both be great potentially in different areas. You know, if you think in terms of the Walmart approach, you know, their thing is cheapest price. Ideally, we don’t want to be that in our market, right? But there is probably something that we can do that will better serve the clients that we’re looking for than what other people in our market are doing. Jay: Yeah, it’s such an important question if we’re all selling the same product. Then what’s going to make somebody choose me over somebody else? And we talked about it in the last podcast. Relationships can be a, a certain part of that, but our systems are turnaround. You know, there’s so many things we can look at internally to say that we live up to that. I think the other hard part, and maybe it’s an important part, is to figure out how to assess what your competitors are doing. If you’re losing sales to your competitors, can you try and assess what they’re doing that is making them win and you not? David: Yeah, and for a lot of people, the difference between an online business and an offline. Is like night and day. Very often there are offline businesses that are trying to compete with online businesses, which have a completely different set of rules and a completely different set of benefits. So very often, rather than saying, how can I compete with this website or whatever, it’s often better to say, how can I be competitive among the people who aren’t really interested in buying from a website, the people who are actually interested in buying from a human? If I’m selling as a human, right? If I’m selling through a website, then I have to ask the opposite question. But there’s always something that we could and should be doing that will differentiate us from our competitors, and that’s what we need to find out. Dan Kennedy, the marketing legend, I remember he said in a seminar one time, the question that we really need to ask ourselves: Why should I do business with you versus any and every other option available to me, including doing nothing? And I was like, wow. Mind blown. Right? But I’ve considered that question so many times over the years. And the last part of it, “including doing nothing” is huge. Because the biggest thing that people tend to do when they’re not buying is they’re deferring. They’re delaying, they’re not doing anything. So the answer to that question has to position us in a way where doing business with us is better than them continuing to do what they’re doing or doing nothing. Jay: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And such a great point. I’m just sitting here thinking about ways to differentiate myself. I personally am somebody who I don’t want to talk to anybody. I want to do it all online. In fact, I will look for every last option to do it online. But if I’m looking for it online and then suddenly I get something in the mail that is a free piece of, you know, talking about promotional products. No website is going to do that, right? And so now I have something tangible and there’s a name attached to that. And if that gets followed up by a phone call, then that’s a way in the door, that a website is never going to do. A website is going to sit there. They’re going to do their Google ads and everything else, and they’re going to be competing for the same space in those search engines. And so for you to try and rank even at a place where you’re going to get seen can be very difficult. So, the website path, I think in many ways is the harder path if you’re not already dominant in that area. David: Right, and so many of the people that we work with are individuals or small businesses that are looking to get attention. They’re looking to create awareness in their market. They’re not sure how to do it. They look at all the online solutions and they get overwhelmed by that. But it really is apples and oranges. And one of the analogies I use very often is it’s the difference between the kind of person who is going to hire a contractor to put a deck on the back of their house or go to Home Depot, buy the lumber, buy the nails, buy the tools, buy the saws, and do it themselves, right? The people who end up going to the websites are the do-it-yourselfers. And so for most business, If you don’t want to compete with that, then you need to make sure that that’s one of your differentiators. That you’re looking for the people who would much rather interact with another human being. And even those who might prefer to do business online, like you indicated. If I can do it quietly myself, I’m happy to do that. The only time that’s really different is that if you’re going to buy something and you know somebody and you trust somebody in that realm, then you’re actually kind of excited to pick up the phone. When you want to buy something from somebody that you know and like and trust, as the old saying goes, you’re excited to do that. You’d rather do that than go online and find it. Which also goes back to our last discussion about relationships. So, When we think in terms of what makes us different, a lot of it should be addressing who is our ideal target market? And it’s largely going to consist of people who want to do business the way that we do business, and then matching up our style of business with the way that they want to do it. But identifying those people and disqualifying those who don’t meet those criteria are really the quickest ways to do that. Jay: Yeah, I love that because I think so often in business, we feel like we have to sell to the whole world, like everybody is our client and that makes it very hard to zero in, very hard to market to. You’re going to dilute your marketing power when you do that And what also occurs to me, David, is that you can do both. I mean, in the business model I’m in, we have a website that gives information. But we also offer a free 20 minute consultation. So now you’ve got kind of both. If they just want information from the website, then great. If they want to talk to a human being and have specific answers to their situation, then great. And we do well off of both of those models. So it’s not like you have to pick one over the other. But one of the things I think is very important is you have to have somebody during that consultation who is good. And if it’s you, then great. But if that 20 minute consultation is a sales call, then you’ll have blown your credibility. You need to make it a legitimate consultation where you provide a value and a service. If they just get a sales call, man, I will hang that phone up so fast, you know, and move on to the next person. David: Right. And I think for a lot of people, a lot of businesses, a lot of salespeople, the website is a good place for them to be able to deliver information that will advance the sale, advance the conversation. So if you’ve got access to resources like that, you can say to someone who would like to interact with a human being you can go to the website, you can download that, or if you’d like, I’ll email it to you. And the people who want to do business with humans might say, “yeah, just email it to me. I’d rather do that.” So identifying your target audience, letting people know the way that you do things. Those are the big differentiators that people are looking for. And at that point, a lot of it becomes simply finding the right audience. Not trying to convince or persuade people who are not interested in doing business the way you do business to change their minds. You another great analogy that I love is, you can either try to preach to the choir or convert the heathens, right? And converting the heathens is a lot harder. So if you can get yourself in front of a group of people who are already singing your tune, you’re in much better shape. Jay: Yeah, and I’ll also add to that, you know, we talked about targeting the audience that will be best for your business model. But I think also assessing your strengths. There’s a great book, it’s called Unfair Advantage, and it’s where you figure out where you excel more than other people or where you have contacts that other people don’t or whatever. If you are really good at building relationships and really good at working with people, that should inform your business model, right? Because then the website is not going to be as effective as you reaching out and talking to somebody. If you’re not that way, and you’re not a people person, you don’t want to talk to people, you just want a website that converts sales without you, well then that kind of speaks to your business model. So it’s important to know your own strengths and where you are going to be the most successful. David: Yes, and the type of person that your approach is likely to attract. Because if you just want to do it all online, there is a market for that. There are people who just want to do business that way. But when you’re not doing business that way, I think it’s a mistake to try to bang that square peg into a round hole. Jay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. How do people find out more, David? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. We’d love to have the conversation if you’re having trouble differentiating yourself in the market. If you’re having trouble identifying the people that you need to be interacting with, the ones who are actually likely to spend money with you, this will be time well spent. So go to TopSecrets.com/call. We’d love to have the conversation. Jay: All right. I always love our conversation. David, thank you so much for your time today. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Differentiate Yourself and Close More Sales? If so, check out a few ways we help promotional product distributors grow their sales & profits: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

Don’t feel like you’re earning what you’re worth? Consider this: When you outproduce what you earn, it creates friction. It creates a bit of tension. And in most well-run businesses, the organization says, “this person needs to be compensated more.” If that’s not happening in the organization you’re with, if you are outproducing what you’re earning, it means that there are plenty of opportunities for you somewhere else that will actually recognize and appreciate that value and reward you accordingly. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be asking the question, are you earning what you’re worth? Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David, it’s great to be with you again. And as I was thinking about this question, I realize I’m not sure I know what I’m worth. I know some people who say, my time is worth this much money. If I’m not making it, I have to change something or do something. I’m not there yet. I’m just not. David: Yeah. I think you’re not alone. I think there are a lot of people who struggle with this. The real challenge comes in the last half of the question. You know what you’re worth because you can’t answer the question until you determine that part of it. Are you earning it? Well, I don’t know. I have to know what I’m worth. Or I have to decide what I’m worth, choose what I’m worth. Choose what I think I’m worth. I’ve said this to a number of people over the years. The reason that I ended up getting into business myself is that I couldn’t find anyone else who was willing to pay me what I thought I was worth. Right? You work in different jobs and say, okay, I feel like I’m worth more than this. Well, when you start your own business, you earn what you’re worth. Because if you’re not producing anything, you’re not earning anything. And if you start earning, then whatever you’re producing justifies it. And so essentially you’re earning what you’re worth. But even with all that, those of us in sales or those of us who own businesses, may still feel like the work we’re doing is costing us too much in terms of time and energy and effort and not producing what we’re looking for in terms of financial results. That’s why I ask the question. Jay: Yeah. I think it is so important that there’s other ways to be paid for your worth. You know, if you’re in a place where you get job recognition, where they listen to your ideas, where you can climb up the ladder, for a lot of people that’s worth more than the bottom line paycheck. Now, if they’re not getting enough to pay their bills, then obviously cash is king. But all the surveys I’ve seen say that people would take less money if they felt like they could get rewarded in other ways. Now, when you’re working for yourself, that equation changes completely. David: Yeah. And I mean, a lot of times people start their own business. They do their own thing because they figure it’s going to give them all sorts of time freedom and things that they don’t have in a regular job. And very often they find out it’s exactly the opposite. I think it was Michael Gerber, the author of the EMyth who talked about the fact that there are a lot of people who work for other companies and they say to themselves, “okay, this guy’s a jerk. I’m going to start my own business.” And they stop working for a jerk and they start working for a maniac… themselves. And when I heard that line I’m like, “that is so true.” So often we will do things in our own businesses that we would probably never do for another employer. We wouldn’t put in the amount of hours, thought, and all that sort of thing. Now, there are employees who do that. There are employees who are really focused on that and who really give their all to a job. But when you are an entrepreneur, particularly if you’re a solo entrepreneur, when you’re doing your own thing, you’re the business. And so the things that you do have to count, they have to matter. And the actions we take have to generate. enough of a result that we’re able to get the kind of money that we need to make just to maintain the business, let alone earn a good living. Jay: Yeah. And don’t you think we kind of romanticize what it is to be an entrepreneur? To be a small business person? You know, we picture all the good. , you know, all the freedom that we’re going to have and everything else. And sometimes what we did is we gave ourself twice the work and half the pay. And so, it becomes hard when you think, what your worth? But you just can’t figure out how to get there. David: Yeah, exactly. And it is very romantic in the early stages. You have this idea of what it’s likely to be like. But that is often very different from how it actually works out. So whether someone is an employee or an employer, the idea of earning what you’re worth starts with identifying, okay, well, what am I worth or what would I like to be worth in terms of dollars, in terms of time freedom, in terms of relationship freedom, all that sort of thing. Because it all plays into it. If you are a people person and you like interacting with other people, and suddenly you’re forced to work by yourself from home, that’s going to be an issue for you. So for some people, currency is interacting with others. And so we have to think in terms of what’s important to me as far as my work life is concerned? Does it involve interacting with a lot of other people? Does it involve learning things? Because there are some people who are real learners and they like to constantly be learning new things and testing new things and applying new things. And for them that can really get them fired up and that can be a form of currency as well –learning new things, growing within a job, growing in terms of responsibility. Because all of that is designed to increase your worth to the business, but really, ultimately to the market, which is the most important thing. If you’re able to increase your value to the market, the people who buy from your company, then your value goes up. And sometimes we try to increase our value to an employer, and maybe the employer just has a certain view that’s not going to line up with that. So I feel like whenever we focus on trying to increase our value to the marketplace, we’re likely to create better results. Jay: Hmm. I think that’s an excellent point. I think also if you can really establish what your time is worth, if you can come up with an equation, then you can start knowing when and how you should delegate, right? Because if you are doing things that are not worth your time, then you’re wasting time. You know, we talk about time capital, right? And we talk about delegation a lot on this podcast. But if you think your time is worth $150 an hour and you’re doing something that you could pay somebody $18 an hour, well, then you’re not going to make what you think you need to make. And so you’ve got to figure out those equations. And sometimes it takes time to do that. David: Yeah, exactly. And it’s also important to think in terms of what is it that’s holding you back? We need to focus on what is the bottleneck that is keeping us from earning the amount of money we want to earn or whatever it is that we want to earn as a result of the work that we’re doing. And just as in manufacturing, in the book The Goal by Eli Goldratt. He talked about the idea that there’s usually one primary bottleneck in a manufacturing organization. It’s easy to visualize, because if there’s one machine in the middle of a company and that’s designed to churn out the product and that machine is broken, you’ll have people on the front end of the machine who are trying to load it up and they can’t do it. You’ll have people on the back end of the machine who can’t unload it. And shipping people who can’t ship it, and salespeople who can’t sell it, because they can’t produce it because of that one thing. When you are in sales yourself or when you own a business yourself, it’s not always easy to see the one thing that’s keeping it from happening. Particularly when you’re in sales. Because we think of sales as reaching out to people, talking to people, having conversations, closing sales, delivering product, that sort of thing. But within the sales process itself, there are various stages. Is the bottleneck in the prospecting that I’m doing? Am I reaching out to the wrong people? Am I attracting the wrong people in the marketing that I’m doing? Are my conversations not going the direction they need to go? Am I not being persuasive enough? Not responding to questions and concerns? Am I not addressing complaints? There are a lot of different areas there, and just one of them can be the same bottleneck as the bottleneck in the manufacturing facility. If you’ve got one particular thing that is slowing you down, the most important thing you can do is to identify that one thing. Because everything else you do around that is not going to produce the result. All the potential that you have for growing is behind that rock, essentially. If you’re going down the street and you come to a place where the road is completely blocked off, there’s a gigantic boulder and there’s no other way to get there, you got to figure out, “how am I going to get around this boulder?” Same thing in sales. We have to. What is it that is keeping us from earning what we feel we are worth? Now, sometimes it could be we just think we’re worth more than other people think we’re worth, at which point we either need to start our own business or we need to prove it. We need to generate results that are far more in excess of what we’re being paid to demonstrate that we’re worth it. And when you start to do that, when you take responsibility, it’s a whole lot easier to start moving toward getting paid what you actually feel like you’re worth. Jay: Yeah. Yeah, that’s exactly right. you talked about that boulder in the middle of the road. I think that we have a tendency to get tunnel vision. Like, this is what works for us. This system has worked for us for years. This is what we do. But if you don’t have an awareness of the market and you don’t have possible contingency plans, then you can find yourself flatfooted. I mean, right now at the moment of recording this, we’re hearing a lot of talk of a recession. So in your business, are you thinking, okay, how are we going to survive if we go into a recession? Does that impact our business model? Does it impact our strategy? I think in this way we can have multiple income streams, possibly? And like you said, multiple approaches? Multiple advertising vehicles? Perhaps we have to adjust our pricing to get through something like a recession. We saw the very same thing during the pandemic. I mean, the businesses that survived during the pandemic shut down were the ones that could pivot and find new markets and still be able to provide a product, but in a completely different way. David: Yeah. If we just think in terms of taking responsibility for our results, a lot of that will end up allowing us to take more responsibility for what we’re going to ultimately earn. Because when you’re outproducing what you are earning, that creates friction, it creates a bit of attention. And in most well-run organizations, the organization says, “this person needs to be compensated more.” And if that’s not happening in the organization you’re with, if you are outproducing what you’re earning, it means that there are plenty of opportunities for you somewhere else that will actually recognize and appreciate that value and reward you accordingly. Jay: Yeah, and I think one of the other things is if you’re doing gangbusters you’re not really thinking about systems or potential roadblocks. I mean, what’s the saying in sports? Winning is the best deodorant, right? So things are just screaming along, oftentimes you’re not thinking about systems. You’re just fulfilling orders. things are going great. And then the minute market forces change or something else, you have no clue what to do because you were just in the right place at the right time to produce that level of sales. And that can be really dangerous if you’re not thinking ahead and creating these contingency plans. David: Yeah, it’s great when you’re riding the wave, you don’t have to think a whole lot. You just keep doing what you’re doing and that works out great. But then, when the ocean is still, you got to start paddling. Jay: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Great discussion, David. How can people find out more? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call, that’s TopSecrets.com/call. Schedule a call with myself or my team. We would be happy to sort of walk you through where you are, where you’re looking to be in terms of visibility, sales, and profit, where you are now versus where you want to be in terms of what you’re earning versus what you’re putting into the business. These conversations have been so helpful. I’ve had so many people who said, “wow, this is great.” And again, even if we never work together, if the conversation is helpful to you, we’d love to. Jay: Yeah, sometimes it’s just hearing the words come out of your mouth and having a sounding board, so we really appreciate that you offer that service. David, it’s been great talking to you. David: You too. Thank you, Jay. Are You Committed to Earning What You’re Worth? If so, check out a few ways we help promotional product distributors grow their sales & profits: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

In this Palm Sunday message we reflect on the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem, the crowd's shouts of "Hosanna," and the question, "Who is this?" We examine Jesus as prophet, healer, and Lord, consider the three responses people had in the crowd (worshipers, observers, fair-weather fans), and challenge listeners to walk with Jesus, worship Him, and surrender their lives. The sermon closes with an invitation to commit to Jesus by admitting need, believing, and confessing Him as Lord. Who is This?!? Matthew 21:8-17  Introduction “It was an Incredible Day!” Main Idea :Who Jesus is to you (personally) matters eternally. Who is this? Jesus — “Yahweh saves” “The prophet from Nazareth in Galilee” The Healer The Messiah Hosanna = “Save us now!” Son of David = “You're the King we've been waiting for.” Riding on a donkey = Zechariah's prophecy fulfilled. The Trilemma: Palm Sunday forces the question, “Is Jesus Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?” The real issue is not just who Jesus is in general, but who He is to you. Where are you in that crowd? Worshipper ¨  Cynic                              ¨  Scoffer Observer ¨  Roman Soldier           ¨  Pharisee Fair‑weather Fan   Conclusion and Invitation Everyone in that crowd had an opinion about Jesus, but only one response was right: total surrender.   Don't just watch Jesus pass by. Walk with Him. Worship Him. Surrender to Him. Because who Jesus is to you (personally) matters eternally.   Find other Podcasts, Sermon Notes and the Bulletin here. https://www.mvcnaz.org/live Stay in touch with our Church Center App at https://www.mvcnaz.org/churchcenter Contact us through our CONNECT form at https://www.mvcnaz.org/connect   With Pastor Mike Curry.

Today's Reading: Matthew 2:13-15, 19-23Daily Lectionary: Genesis 45:1-20, 24-28; Mark 13:1-23“So that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled.” (Matthew 2:23)In the Name + of Jesus. Amen.This was the second time an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. The first was after Joseph discovered that his betrothed, Mary, was having a child that was not his. He resolved to divorce her quietly until the angel explained that Mary had not been unfaithful to him, but faithful to both him and God. And Joseph did what the angel commanded him, though it wasn't easy.Then, after Jesus had been born, an angel of the Lord came again. The child's life is in danger. Take the child and your wife and flee to Egypt. For how long? A few weeks? Months? Years? Until I tell you. And Joseph did what the angel commanded him, though it wasn't easy.Then, when King Herod was dead, the angel returned one more time to tell Joseph to go back home. Once again, Joseph uprooted his life and family and did what the angel commanded him, though it wasn't easy. St. Joseph, Guardian of Jesus.But he is not Saint Joseph because of all he did as Jesus' guardian and all the ways he kept the word of the Lord spoken by the angel, though it wasn't easy. We admire him for that. I know I've failed to do many things God has told me to do that are far less difficult than all that! But he is Saint Joseph not because of all he did for this child, but because of all this child did for him. Before Joseph began looking after Jesus, the Son of God was looking after him. Before Joseph left his home, the Son of God had left his. And though Joseph gave up much for this son, the Son of God gave up much more for him when He laid down His life on the cross for Joseph. To make him - and us - saints by grace through faith.So perhaps we could say of Joseph and Jesus, not like father, like son, but the opposite: like son, like father! What Jesus did was not because of what Joseph did, but what Joseph did was because of what Jesus did. Jesus came to fulfill all the words and promises of God, the words and promises Joseph believed. And by faith alone in those words and promises of the promised Messiah, Joseph believed what he believed and did what he did. Trusting that even though it wasn't easy, it was good. It was of God. For us and for our salvation.In the Name + of Jesus. Amen.Almighty God, from the house of Your servant David You raised up Joseph to be the guardian of Your incarnate Son and the husband of His mother, Mary. Grant us grace to follow the example of this faithful workman in heeding Your counsel and obeying Your commands; through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.

We get results from social media when we’re able to identify the result that we’re looking to get, and identify the messaging that we need to create to be able to get in front of these ideal prospects to have them raise their hands and express interest. When we do those things correctly, then you can get to the point where nearly everybody you talk to is actually qualified to do business with you. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today’s episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will discuss how to get results from social media. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. This is a big topic. Talk about opening a can of worms. It’s something everybody wants, and we talked, last podcast about learning online and what great resources there are. This is a place where there may be such an overload of information and different ideas that I don’t know if you’re going to find the answer online. I really don’t. David: You’ll find a lot of answers online. Yeah., Right? Whether or not it’s the answer you’re looking for, whether or not it’s the answer that solves your problem, that is the big question mark. But I feel like this topic is so important because everyone’s on social media. Everyone’s trying to figure out what to do and how to get results. And the reason that I believe the word results is so important is that it narrows your focus. It forces you to think in terms of, okay, what is the result I even want to get here? What am I trying to do? Because as we talked about in a previous podcast, you can go on social media and it’s nothing but distraction after distraction. And if you just turn it on and go in there without a really strong focus in terms of what you want to accomplish, what result you want to get, you’re not getting any sort of result, except you’re going to get pulled into other people’s experiences. So from my standpoint, the first thing we need to do is to identify what is the result that I would like to get from social media? And then you can look at how much time that I spend on there is actually allocated to getting that result. That’ll tell you a lot right off the bat. Jay: Yeah, and I think that there is a misguided focus that you need a large audience, right? Like if I can get up to 10, 000 followers or whatever, that’s not true. it could be better to have a thousand dedicated followers who are potential clients than having a hundred thousand people who may just clog up your pipeline and who really never are going to be your clients. David: Right. And if they’re not responding to what you do, if they’re not liking, if they’re not replying, then the algorithm says people aren’t interested in this. So you’re exactly right. If you just had the hundred people or so who are going to click today’s link on there. You’d be seeing everybody, everyone would be seeing your stuff. But of course it’s impossible to do that. So you’re exactly right. It’s about saying, all right, well, how can I get to more of the right kind of people who resonate with the material that I’m putting out? And I am not speaking as an authority on social media. Okay. I want to be really clear about this. I’m not coming to you and saying, oh yes, I’m the guy for social media. No, not saying that. However, what we have been able to do is to identify specific things that our clients have wanted to accomplish, and we’re very good at helping them accomplish it, once we decide exactly what those results are. Jay: Yeah, I’ll tell you where we’re at right now in our company. As you know, we offer Tax Services to a very specific group, so, I’ve told you in the past, we have spent two years identifying keywords for paid ads, and it’s been a constant process where we’re refining, I do the consultations, And so when I see that we’re getting consultations that are not in the strike zone, I go back to our keyword, you know, the person doing our Google ads, and we refine, and we refine, and refine. And I’ve told you, We’re to a place now, it’s kind of like our secret recipe, where we don’t get a consultation that is not in the strike zone anymore. We’ve been that focused. But it costs us a hundred dollars per consultation. That’s what we’re paying. And that’s a pretty steep fee. So obviously we’re like, okay, how do we get organic people to come to our website from social media, where they’ve seen something that we’re providing, and they’re clicking through and that doesn’t cost us anything, right? So that’s the goal, that’s the dream. But now we’re in another problem. We could probably get tons of people coming to our site. But now I don’t want everybody clicking on the schedule a consultation. Because I’d be back in that same problem. I’d be talking to a lot of people who I can’t help. So this is the dilemma. This is where we’re at in our company right now, moving to social media, but we have to be very strategic about how we do that. David: Yes. But you’re very clear on the results you’re looking for. Yes. You’re looking for a very specific type of client. You’re looking for a very specific criteria. And for you, you know that even though a hundred seems expensive, you know that it’s worth it because you know that each client is going to be worth quite a bit more than that. If the service that you were offering cost 50 dollars, you could not do what you’re doing. And that’s something else that I think is important for people to understand. Not every product, not every service is going to work in terms of social media advertising, no matter how great you get at it, because there’s always going to be competition for various keywords. There’s going to be a number of factors that go into it. So if you don’t have a product that justifies that kind of investment, if you’re selling a pack of gum at a time, right? When you go into a grocery store and you check out, there’s a pack of gum, they’re like, Oh, I’ll have a pack of gum. You take it as an impulse buy, right? That sort of thing. It’s very unlikely that you’re going to be able to run ads on social media and sell a pack of gum, right? I mean, just the shipping costs on it, it’s not going to work. There’s some things that don’t work. When you understand that, then you can recognize that if you want to sell something that doesn’t sell particularly well on social media, you need to find other ways to do that. And of course, that’s the subject of a totally different podcast. But when we think about the results that we’re looking to get. There are a number of different ones, right? The first one is, in your case, it’s about getting someone to have a conversation with, who is qualified. Getting a qualified person to raise their hands and express interest. And you’re talking about your secret recipe. And I’ve always maintained that any business that does not have some secret recipe in it, is not going to last very long. And I’ve had people argue with me about this a lot. It’s like what are you talking about? You know, we’ve got a commodity business, essentially, like if your business is a commodity, that’s going to be a reflection on your sales, right? If it’s just a total commodity, it is going to reflect in your numbers. There’s got to be something special, something different that you bring to the table, either in terms of the product or service that you’re offering, or in terms of the way that you sell it, right? Because if you’re selling a commodity, Then you need to be better at attracting the type of clients who want to buy that commodity. We do a lot of work in the promotional products industry, in the print industry, and a lot of people view that as a commodity. I sell print services. I’m an offset printer. Everybody sells offset printing. It’s like, that is correct. But what are the types of clients that you really want to bring in, right? Who are the kinds of clients who are going to spend the kind of money with you that you want to actually encourage, right? You don’t just want to take anyone with a pulse, anyone who can fog a mirror. You don’t want to just take anyone who comes through the door. When you’re building a business proactively, you’re deciding who you want to work with and who you want to choose to leave to your competitors. So again, I want to stay focused on our topic, which is social media. We need to recognize that there are specific results we want, and then once we’ve identified what those results are, we can start to figure out what the specific plan is for getting those things to happen. Jay: Yeah, and I’ll tell you, I don’t say this very often, but I really think this is a situation where you may be better off not trying to learn it yourself. You know, I’ve watched videos, I’ve taken online courses, and everybody’s like, even down to the thumbnail you put on your YouTube videos and the, you know, what do in the video where I’m pointing at the, you know, taking all these pictures, I’m, looking like surprise and look, this is amazing and the clickbaity titles and all of those things, but that’s always changing. That target is always moving, right? I’ve used something as simple as Fiverr, right? Where somebody who charges me 50 bucks a week, but this is what they do. I’ve gotten more results from that than I have ever gotten from trying to follow somebody on YouTube, and so I’ve just decided I’m not going to learn it. I’m paying somebody else to do it because I want to focus my time on what’s most important. And that’s what we’ve found. Again, I’m not saying everybody that’s the solution for you, but we have spent a lot of time in this arena, and that’s how we’ve gotten results. David: It makes perfect sense. I think it was Dean Graziosi, who I originally heard this from, he was talking about the fact that when you have the money to solve a problem, you no longer really have that problem, unless you’re too cheap to spend the money, right? And so if you can pay somebody 50 dollars and you can get ad results that allow you to multiply your ad investment, it’s silly not to do that. That also goes to the topic of “who, not how.” Dan Sullivan wrote a book about that. If you’re looking to do everything, every aspect of your business, you shouldn’t, because there are going to be things that you’re not going to be naturally good at. But I think the core of this particular topic, when we talk about getting results from social media, The biggest problem is not social media. The biggest problem is people don’t know exactly what result they want, right? They may think, “Oh, I just want to get more sales.” Well, yes, you do want to get more sales, but there are steps to that. And the first step, particularly if you’re using social media is going to be figuring out a way to somehow identify who those people are, whether you’re doing it organically, whether you’re doing it with paid ads, there are specific things that you need to do. If those things don’t happen, you’re not going to get more clients. And whether it’s you coming up with the how on how to do that, or whether you’re paying someone else to do it for you, you’ve got to be able to convey to them what you want, and that’s where a lot of people get stuck. They’re just so unclear on exactly what they want to have happen that they can’t get it done because they can’t even convey it to someone who can help them do it. Jay: Yeah, such an important point. I mean, I’m just sitting here thinking, if you imagined our business with a storefront, you would think I want to line out the door and down the block. I don’t. Right? I want the door locked and I’m buzzing you in, once I’ve decided that you fit in a specific category. That seems to go against everything. that we’ve learned about business, but we know that because we’ve spent so much time defining exactly what you’re talking about. And what I think is the core, if anybody takes away from this podcast, and that is, if you don’t know what you want, how are you going to craft social media or any type of marketing towards that specific thing? That’s got to be job one. David: Yeah, and the truth of the matter is that that situation you described about buzzing people in versus having the line, anyone who has been even remotely successful at identifying their audience and identifying ways to attract the right people into their organization would much rather have the buzzer, right? Because otherwise you’re having to swat people away, and that is time consuming and it’s difficult. So when we’re able to identify the result that we’re looking to get, identify the messaging that we need to create to be able to get in front of these ideal prospects to get them to raise their hands and express interest. When we do those things correctly, then you can get to the point where you are, where nearly everybody you talk to or everybody you talk to is actually qualified to do business with you. Jay: Yeah, I mean think about it. We’re literally saying how do we get fewer leads? You know what I mean? It just seems like it’s such a different approach. And I want to add one more thing. We’re about out of time here. And I think we should talk about this in another podcast. People who do have successful social media programs, you don’t want to rely on social media. They change their algorithms all the time. And your goal should not be just to get a sale. It should be to offload them onto one of your properties. Your mailing list, your website, something else. Because you could spend all this money and have a great system and then an algorithm changes and you’re sunk. So I’d love to dive into that a little bit more in the future. David: Yeah, that’s a good one. And also the fact that the people who do this extremely well are not just running one ad forever. It’s very unlikely that’s going to happen. There are constantly going to be changes that are necessary because either the market has seen it and it’s gotten stale or there are approaches that work better and differently, or as you indicated, the algorithm could change. There are a lot of different factors that go into it. So if you think you’re going to come up with one magic thing that’s going to work forever, it’s very unlikely that’s going to happen. But when you’re aware of the factors that you need to be able to focus on, you’re going to be a lot more likely to get the results you want. Jay: Yeah, eventually competitors are going to steal that secret recipe. And what are you going to do then, right? How do you define yourself? David, as always, it’s a pleasure. How do people find out more? David: Go to TopSecrets.com/install. Check out the video. See if it makes sense to have a conversation with myself or our team. We love having conversations with really sharp, motivated entrepreneurs, salespeople, those who are looking to grow their sales and profits in a way that is sustainable. You’re not looking for just the next new thing, the next whatever it is that somebody says is going to get you the business you’re looking for. It’s unique to everyone, and we need to be able to recognize and utilize your unique strengths in your solution. Otherwise, if you say, well, the solution is Instagram, the solution is Facebook, the solution is this, it’s that. No, the solution is identifying what is going to work best for you, and that’s what we do with our clients. So, TopSecrets.com/install. Jay: Fantastic. David, as always, a pleasure. Thank you. David: Thank you, Jay. Ready to Get Results from Social Media? If so, check out the five primary ways we help promotional product distributors grow: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional products sales, learn how we can help. Need Clients Now? If you're already grounded in the essentials of promotional product sales and just need to get clients now, click here. Want EQP/Preferential Pricing? Are you an established industry veteran doing a significant volume of sales? If so, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry. Time to Hire Salespeople? If you want to hire others to grow your promo sales, click here. Ready to Dominate Your Market? If you're serious about creating top-of-mind-awareness with the very best prospects in your market, schedule a one-on-one Strategy Session here.

To improve business communication fast, consider this… If nothing that you convey in your communication, instills any sort of belief in the other person as to why they should take the action that you’re requesting, then it’s not at all likely they’re going to take that action. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the TBDs. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, it’s such a pleasure to be here with you again, David. We’re talking about communication here and I’ll be honest. Oftentimes we’ll discuss a podcast that we want to do, or you’ll send me the topics and I sit here and think, you know, I’ve never once thought about this type of thing. How to improve communication. I just kind of fall in the trap. You know, I talk to people, I send them emails. I’m guessing that that’s good communication, but I’ve not really thought about it, David. David: Yeah. I sort of introduced this topic backwards, I guess, at the top of this podcast. When I say we’re going to be talking about the TBDs, what we’re really talking about is improving our communication with the TBDs. And for those of you who are saying, “what are they talking about?” Allow me to elaborate. A lot of times when I’m working with clients, one of the things they’ll ask about is how to improve the results they’re getting with the communications they’re having with prospects. That could be anything from the messages they’re leaving on people’s voicemails. It could be not getting responses to emails. It could be the things they’re posting on social media, any form of outbound communication, whether it’s one-to-one or one-to-many. What you say in those communications is going to determine what happens. We touched on this a little bit in the previous episode. But if you want to really think about what is likely to get you the best results? I boil it down down for myself and my clients as what I refer to as the TBDs. Now, when people think of that abbreviation “to be determined,” that’s often what’s used there. That’s not what I’m thinking in terms of. When we want to communicate with other people and get a result, we should ask ourselves: “As a result of this communication, what do I want this person to think? What do I want them to believe, and what do I want them to do? Okay? If you structure your communication to address those three points, you’ll be far more likely to get the result you’re looking for. If I send somebody an email, and there’s nothing I want them to think, believe or do, there’s no reason to send that email. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: If I make a phone call, leave a voicemail message, or do anything to initiate contact with another human being, if there’s nothing in particular that I want them to think, believe, or do, then what’s the point of having the conversation? Now, if you’re calling a loved one, Okay. You know? Jay: Yeah. David: You want them to know that you love them. You want to know that they love you, all that sort of thing. But, in business in particular, in our communications, if we don’t have a reasonably good idea of what we want the other person to think, believe, or do, then there’s not a whole lot of reason to communicate. Jay: Yeah. That’s so powerful because how often or is the temptation I’m calling a client? Hey, just checking in, seeing how you’re doing give me a call back. It’s like, that’s the trap. I think so many of us fall into. I’m not thinking at that moment, what I want them to be thinking is, please call me back because you need me. But I sound kind of desperate and not like there’s a priority. There’s no urgency, there’s nothing really being conveyed. Right? David: Yes. And when we’re doing follow-up calls, when we’re doing check-in calls, and just even using those words in a voicemail message. There’s nothing really compelling for them to respond to there. Is there? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: If you’re saying to somebody, “Hey, I’m just checking in,” it’s like, “okay, well they’re just checking in. I’ve got nothing for ’em at this point. I guess I don’t need to respond to that.” But when you leave a message like that, We have things we want them to think, believe, and do. We want them to think, “oh, I’m going to get this message and I’m going to call this person back.” Ideally, we want them to believe that it would be in their best interest to pick up the phone and call us. We want them to do, we want them to pick up the phone and call us back, right? So it does kind of tie together, but when you’re conscious about it, It requires you to think differently and to speak differently and to approach the whole thing differently. If I want them to think that it’s important for them to call me back then saying, “Hey, I’m just calling to check in,” is probably not the best approach to take. And in most of our communications, it’s good to have some sort of call to action at the end of it. Give me a call back, drop me an email, send me a text, whatever it is, that’s the “do” portion of it, and that usually does come at the end. You want to have a very specific call to action at the end indicating what you would like or appreciate for them to do. Are they always going to do it? No, I leave messages for people who don’t call me back. Even people that I’ve known for a long time, who I’ve worked with and things like that. For whatever reason, that still happens. But if you are at least clear, on your end, about why you’re calling, what you’re looking to accomplish in that call and what you’d like them to do next, then at least you’ve got a shot. Jay: Yeah, and I think it’s probably a, discussion more for a future podcast, but things have changed dramatically over the last, say, 15 years. It used to be people expected a voice phone call. We get almost zero results now, in our business with the return voicemail. All of the results come through the return email or the return text. And now, I find it’s easier for people to get back to me because they respond right when they see that text. But it makes it harder to define, you’re not in person, they’re not hearing your voice, and so now making sure they’re going to think what you or believe it and do what you want them to do, you’ve got to be able to condense that down and share that message in a powerful way, in fewer words. So there’s some wordsmithing needs there that have to happen. David: Yes, and the belief portion of it, I think is pretty key. And it’s important to differentiate that from the think portion. And what I mean by that is if I want you to think that we should do business together, it needs to go deeper than that. You need to believe that it’s really in your best interest that we do business together, because if you just sort of think it, if it sort of flies by in your brain, then it can just as easily fly out. But if you’re able to instill some level of belief, even just a little, a little bit of a belief, which is more than a thought, it’s actually a strong consideration that this might be in my best interest, then you’ll be a lot more likely to get the return call, get the return communication, whatever it is. So it’s a small distinction on some levels, but it’s a really deep distinction on others. If nothing that you convey in your communication, instills any sort of belief in the other person as to why they should take the action that you’re requiring in the third step or requesting in the third step, then it’s not at all likely they’re going to take that action. Jay: Yeah, I imagine like for example, if you in promotional products are trying to get somebody to believe something, I would think what I want them to believe is that the longer they wait, not using your promotional products, the longer they’re not going to experience the benefit of the sales and the growth that those things can provide. If I can convey that, I’m guessing for you that would be a win. David: Yeah, that’s an excellent example of a belief system that we would like to be able to install in other people. That it is absolutely in their best interest to do it, and if they’re not doing it, that in some ways it could potentially be harming them. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: Particularly if those things are true. We’re not just looking to try to make things up to manipulate people into responding to us. If what we’re offering actually has value and has the ability to help the other person, and we don’t create that belief, we don’t convey that belief to them, then we are doing them more harm than we’re doing to ourselves. Because they don’t get the benefit of what it is that we could help them with. Jay: Yeah. And so being lackadaisical, that’s probably not going to help. Are there any tips or guidelines on how you can really identify that thing? Because I’m asking myself, “okay, what do I want my potential clients to believe?” I don’t know if I know the answer to that question. So spending some time on just that could be very valuable. David: Yeah, literally if you grab a sheet of paper and you write, “Think” at the top, “Believe” in the middle of the page, “Do” near the bottom, and then say, okay, what is it that I want to accomplish in my next communication? And when you’re reaching out to a lot of different people with a similar message, for a similar purpose, then this becomes that much more critical. Because every call that you make without doing this decreases the likelihood that you’re going to get the result you want, because you haven’t defined the result you want. I mean, yeah, you know that you want them to call you back, but you haven’t identified what you want them to think about that, what you want them to believe about that so that they will actually take the action that you’re requesting. Jay: Yeah. And then what’s probably going to happen, because you haven’t done that, you’re going to sound desperate and like you’re begging. And that is, that is the worst place to come from in a sales call. David: Yeah. Or that you’re careless, that you’re just, “oh, I thought I’d give you a call.” Like I have nothing better to do. When you convey that sort of a message Into somebody’s voicemail, particularly if that’s somebody who’s busy, who actually has things that need to get done to improve productivity and make things happen, and move things forward in their business. They’re going to listen to that. I’m going to say, I don’t have time for this, Jay: Right. David: But if that same message conveyed a thought that resonated with them, a belief that would motivate them, and then a call to action that would actually happen. Now you’re using exactly or at least roughly the same amount of time to leave that voicemail message, but improving your results and your responses dramatically. Jay: Yeah. And it’s a legitimate place where you can use the phrase game changer. It’s often overused, but this is a process, right? So you may want to do some A/B testing, I think. You’re not going to nail it the first time. But it’s another place, and we talk about this very often, tracking the messaging that you’re using and seeing which types of message are most effective. Because if you’re not doing that, you’re not going to know when you’re really hitting that sweet spot or not. David: Exactly. And if you have the ability to track your most recent calls, your last 10, 50, a hundred calls. If you’ve been doing the same thing on those, how many of them got a return call? Say you made a hundred calls and three people called you back, that’s a 3% rate. If I change the approach, if I incorporate the TBDs, what does that do? Does it convert it to 6%? Maybe it converts to 8%? Does it convert it to 20%? Or does it reduce it to zero? Any of those things are possible, depending on what it is we’re conveying in that message. It could make it better. It could make it worse. But if you do this, if you test it, as you’re talking about, an A/B test. The A test was what you did before. The B test is what you’re doing now for a certain period of time. You’re tracking those results. You’re comparing it. That gives you the answer. It gives you the answer better than any guru, than any marketing Sherpa, whatever it is that’s going to tell you because the market always votes with their wallets. Or in this case, they vote with their phones, whether or not they’re going to call you back. That’s what tells you the answer. So it’s very easy to define once you’ve got it set up. Not always fun to implement. Not always easy to implement. Probably easier than it seems, but once you do it and you’ve got those numbers, now you know. You don’t have to wonder. Hmm. I wonder if that would work better. You know. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the most important part. That’s the difference between just shooting stabs in the dark or conveying a message of, you know, “Hey, I’m just your friend,” instead of somebody who has a product that can change your business or improve your business. So how do people find out more? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call to schedule a call with myself or my team. If you’re looking to initiate more conversations, improve your communications with people, get a better response to your emails, your voicemails, your phone messages, anything you’re doing in that regard, then let’s have a conversation. Our Total Market Domination course is all designed to get you better results from what you’re currently doing. Jay: Fantastic. David, thank you so much for sharing your information today. David: Thank you, Jay. Are You Ready to Improve Your Communication to Get Better Results? 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Your process for goal achievement is key. Because you’re doing a lot behind the scenes before anyone even knows that you’re alive. So we’re essentially moving from being invisible and working hard behind the scenes — to ideally, at some point, bursting on the scene and being recognized as a force in your marketplace. But none of that happens by accident and it doesn’t just come from setting goals. It requires having those processes in place. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing your process for goal achievement. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. Thank you. It’s always a pleasure to be with you. I’m going to be brutally honest here. I’m really good at setting goals. But I’m not very good at mapping out how I’m going to accomplish those goals. I think it’s good that I’ve taken that first step. And I kind of have a mental idea, but I never really go back and say, “yeah, I accomplished that thing.” So I think I’m missing some of the motivation to set more goals. That’s one of the key things about goals. Once you’ve checked ’em off, you should feel good about yourself and then do more goals. And I don’t know if I ever reached that point. David: Interesting. And I think a lot of people feel the same way. I know I’ve certainly had that situation over the years and still do to some extent. We talked about goals several weeks ago. I really wanted to get to the idea that it’s great to have the goal. But it’s like looking at the top of a ladder and saying, okay, that’s where I want to go. Or it’s like looking at the sky, that’s where I want to go. But ultimately, the goal isn’t what’s going to get you there. The goal may motivate you, but the goal is not going to get you there. Ultimately, it’s the process that’s going to get you there. Assuming you have a process. So if the goal is to generate a certain amount of revenue in your business, or have a certain amount of money in your personal bank account, or start a business, whatever your goal is, the next step is to say, okay, what are the specific steps? What are the combinations of tasks and projects that are going to be necessary to help me achieve that goal? Because the tasks, the individual things I have to do, and the projects, essentially the things that are composed of a bunch of tasks, are what’s going to get us there. And the combination of these things is essentially the process. If my goal is to generate a certain amount of sales revenue, and I’m not there yet. I generally want to start with a process that says, Okay, let’s take a look at exactly how much your existing clients are worth to you. What did they spend with you last year? And then, do I think they’ll spend more, less, or about the same this year? And generally, you’ll have a reasonable idea of that. Whether it’s going to be about the same, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. You won’t know for sure, but it’s a great place to start. Then you say, “Okay, if I can count on my existing customers for this level of revenue, and I want to get to that level, how do I fill that gap? Because if this is the goal and this is where I am now, then we have to look at the process that will get us there. What’s the combination of tasks and projects that will allow us to reach that revenue goal? When we focus on that, everything we do during any given day now leads toward the goal. As opposed to just having scattered focus, just doing a bunch of different things. Just thinking about our goal, but not exactly sure how we’ll get there. But when you start to think of it in terms of tasks, projects, and ultimately your process, that’s what’s really going to make the biggest difference. Jay: Yeah, I think if you don’t do that, it can be really demotivating, right? I think I’ve told you in the past, when I was in the restaurant business just starting out, I would have an area manager come into the store and we would set goals, and the first one is always what you’re talking about. How are you going to increase sales? And he would just increase our sales on the goal by ten percent, right from the previous year and never tell me what I can do to, you know, I’m new, “okay, how am I going to do that? What are the steps?” And it was just this arbitrary number that he came up with and never trained me or told me how I could accomplish those things. So then the follow up is like, “oh, you didn’t achieve your goal.” And I’m like, “well, you never told me how to achieve my goal,” right? David: Yeah, the what is very often easy, it’s in the how that we get into all the details. And that’s what’s missing with a lot of people .And that’s why when we work with our clients in our Total Market Domination course, majority of it is the how, the specific steps that need to be taken in order to get to the desired goal. And when I say how, it doesn’t mean that you have to do it, either. It means somebody has to do it, right? So you can get into this idea of who versus how, which is a great book, by the way. Dan Sullivan and Dr. Ben Hardy wrote a book called Who Not How. Excellent book. But that concept still requires somebody to know how to do the things. So either you’re going to find somebody who has that skill and you’re going to get them to take those actions, or you’re going to have to know what to do, either do it yourself or train someone else to do it so that those things can be done. And then when you start focusing on that sort of approach, that becomes your process. You say, “okay, when I take this action, then I am likely to get this result.” And then you look at those results and you gauge it based on what you’re expecting. And then you tweak and adapt it as you go. But ultimately it’s all about the process and whether the process is figuring out what to do or knowing what to do and then taking the action to do it, or whether the process is identifying the right people that you need to bring into your organization to help you with it, it ultimately all boils right back down to the process. Jay: Yeah, I think it’s so important to say it’s not all on you, right? Identify those things that you need to do and put the other things on other people’s shoulders so that you can focus. I also love how you pointed out that as you’re assessing your goals, if you’re not getting there, you need to tweak and change. I think sometimes we just say, Oh, that was it. Didn’t work. So I guess that that goal wasn’t right and so again, you’ve demotivated yourself instead of kind of reworking that goal. David: Yeah, and so often we don’t even realize how close we are to something until it actually happens. And it reminds me of that analogy about how an airplane is off course for 90 percent of the flight. And so the pilot’s job is to make constant little tweaks to get you back on track toward wherever it is that you’re going. So you take off, you’re headed in a direction, and then there’s a little bit of wind and it sends you one way and then they have to compensate for it. So most of the little steering we do, even when we’re driving a car, your hands are moving slightly back and forth. And the reason it’s doing that is because you’re slightly off course most of the time. When you use an analogy like that, and when you recognize that it’s exactly the same in life, it’s exactly the same in business, you’re going to be off course, most of the time. And so you have to just keep adapting and keep making these tweaks to make sure that you’re back on track and following the path that you’ve set, which, of course, in what we’re talking about today is your process, the tasks, the specific things that have to be done, the projects, the longer term things that require multiple actions and the ultimate process that you’re using to get there. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And I also think when you talk about, you know, find the who, I think that one of the biggest mistakes that I see people make is they don’t, and I really struggle with this, they don’t share their process with other people. They don’t seek mentorship. And so they’re reinventing the wheel. You know, a lot of these things have been tried and tested and you can skip a lot of pain and a lot of hassle if your who includes somebody else, just another ear call you, right? You know, bend people’s ear and see what they think. And like I said, I really struggle with this. I do everything quietly. And if it doesn’t work, then I’ll go, okay, I should do something else. Cause I don’t want somebody else to know that I failed. David: And of course you haven’t failed until you’ve decided that you failed until you give up on it, right? Because a lot of times we can be trying the same thing and it’s not working. It’s not working. It’s not working. And you keep doing it. And then eventually it works. So it’s like, okay, but if you quit before then, you may consider it a failure, but it might not have failed as long as you keep going. It’s also interesting when you talk about the idea that people tend to keep to themselves and they don’t share stuff. That’s really where we came up with our brand, TopSecrets.com, is the idea that not so much that these things are impossible to find out. It’s just that they’re not often shared. A lot of sales and marketing training boils down to essentially fortune cookie kind of stuff. Be good to your clients and they’ll be good to you. People do business with those they know, like, and trust. And these platitudes are maybe a little helpful, but until you know how to put them into action, until you know the specifics of, “okay, what do I do with that information? How do I get people to know, like, and trust me” if that’s the goal? And they’re three different things, right? First of all, do they know that I’m alive? You know, creating that initial awareness. And so in our program, we refer to it as First Contact. What is your First Contact with a new prospect or client going to be? Because that’s going to determine whether or not they even know you’re taking in air on the planet, which is a prerequisite to them either being able to like you or being able to trust you. It all starts with that. And so when you have specific processes in place for here’s what we do to get ideal prospects, not just anybody who can fog a mirror, but here’s what we do to get ideal prospects to know who we are. And then here’s what we do to get them to like us and trust us better. We don’t really use those terms specifically in our program, but what we do focus on is how do we create that level of awareness in the mind of the ideal client, so that they think of you as the obvious go to choice for them? Because if they don’t think of you that way, and they think of someone else that way, then it’s very likely that someone else is going to get the business. Jay: Yeah. , those are all really, really good points. And like you said it’s a process. You have to be meticulous about it. I think one of the things that is hard is that, you know, we compare ourselves to successful people in business and we know them as already successful. And so we don’t really understand that they went through these processes, right? They suffered. They struggled. And so the fact that you’re going through that, the fact that it’s hard and it doesn’t look hard to other people, it’s deceptive, right? We don’t see what they’ve had to go through. We don’t see that they took these steps. David: Right. And neither does the market. If the people that could buy from us don’t know we’re alive, they have no idea what we’re going through. They have no idea that we’re struggling because we haven’t figured out a way to introduce ourselves to them that is in any way compelling, right? It’s just like “overnight success” in any capacity usually doesn’t happen that way. There’s usually a lot of behind the scenes. One of the things that we also focus on in our training is the idea, since that theme is so common, we focus on the idea that a lot of what you do in the early stages is going to be invisible. And so, you’re doing a lot behind the scenes before anyone even knows that you’re alive. And so we’re essentially moving from that, being invisible and working hard behind the scenes, to ideally at some point bursting on the scene and being recognized as a force in your marketplace. But none of that happens by accident and it doesn’t just come from setting goals. It requires Having those processes in place. Jay: Yeah, I think that’s so important. Every once in a while, you see somebody who had an idea and it just explodes, right? And they fall into a pot of gold. But, you know, we tend to think that that’s how it’s going to happen for us. You know, I see these people who are like influencers on YouTube or whatever, and they have millions of views. I’ve looked at some of their stories. What you don’t see is that they publish videos without any success or following for an entire year before their channel blew up. They just kept pounding their head against a wall, but they had goals and they had plans and they worked towards it. And that’s the work sometimes that we’re just not seeing. David: Right, and clearly they resonated with other people because back to what we were talking about earlier You’re not going to generate that level of revenue unless you’re impacting enough people. So if your story is just that compelling and other people say “wow, this is really impressive,” then yeah, then you can really sort of attract that thing without a whole lot of effort. But for most people particularly if you’re going to do something as a business, it’s going to require a little more thought. Jay: Yeah, it’s going to be hard, right? But that effort is going to change you. It’s going to change your views. And I think you find out after the journey and after the pain that you’ve learned so much and now you’re better prepared to, you know, set your new goals and to work towards them. You build a strength, like you build muscle mass, right? So how can people find out more? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com, schedule a call with myself or my team. We’d love to have a conversation with you. If you know where you want to be in terms of your goals, and you’re not quite sure about the processes for getting you there, this is a great way to have a conversation. We can see if we think the same way, if our approach makes sense for you. If it does, great. Even if it doesn’t, we’ll have a great conversation. You’ll probably get a lot of good ideas from it. Jay: Yeah. And sometimes that conversation is enough to get you kind of moving in the right direction. David, as always, it’s great pleasure to talk to you. David: Thanks Jay. Are You Ready for the Processes that Will Get You To Your Goals? 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If our storytelling allows us to build trust, build credibility, and build a bond in sales, then we’re telling the right stories. If it’s just designed to be manipulative, then save your breath. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today’s episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the power of storytelling in sales. Jay, tell me a story. Jay: Listen, I am a storyteller. I love to tell stories and I like to build when I tell stories, right? This is something that I use on a regular basis when I’m talking to people. And it’s not just telling a story. I think it’s putting people in a story and what character are they in that story? And I think most people want to be the hero in their own story, right? David: They do. Which gets to the whole idea of the hero’s journey, for anyone who follows that sort of story arc. The Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell. But it’s a book and it describes essentially the plot of most of the most popular movies of all time. Jay: Yeah, David: Right. Star Wars, Rocky, anything where you’ve got this person who is initially kind of beaten down and not winning. Then they come into contact with a mentor. They learn new things and have a confrontation and it might not go well. Then they learn some more things and then eventually they come out triumphant. There’s a whole arc. And you’re right, a lot of people want to be the hero, and the challenge as a salesperson is, in our storytelling, we can’t be the hero. Mm. Right. We need to make sure that the person we’re talking to is the hero and that we are the mentor or guide. We’re not Luke Skywalker. We have to be Yoda. We have to be the one who’s helping Luke to destroy the Death Star. Jay: Yeah. This is a really hard thing, I think for a lot of people. Because we want to go in and think we’re the hero, right? I’m coming into your business. I’m going to provide something that is going to save the day, and then I’m going to walk away and you’re going to praise me and you’re going to pay me. But that’s not what really is supposed to be happening, right? It’s that I have the tools and the resources that you need to be the hero. David: Yes, and it’s easy to forget that, particularly when we’re trying to read ourselves in as the hero to each story. But one of the things that I’ve noticed in sales is that many, if not most of the very best salespeople are also the best storytellers. You can say. “Hi, do you know what time it is?” And instead of getting the time, you will get a fantastic story that might weave the time into it. Jay: Mm. David: But you’re going off in all kinds of directions, and when they do it right, it’s captivating enough that you sit there and pay attention. Jay: Yeah. But you pointed out “when you do it right.” David: Yes. Jay: Right. so let’s talk about that a little bit. Let’s talk about your feedback on doing it right. David: Well, number one, as we already touched on, it can’t just be all about you. You can’t make the story about yourself. You need to make it about them, and a lot of that upfront comes from finding out about them, which means you’re asking more questions, then you’re answering, hopefully in the early stages. Jay: Yes David: Because customers always just want to know what it’s going to cost upfront, and you don’t generally want to lead off with that. So a lot of our storytelling will actually have to come from the conversations that ensue after we’ve gathered enough information. Jay: Yeah. David: To know what those stories need to be about. If we just go in and we meet somebody for the first time and we start telling them stories, that’s probably not ideal. We need to still initially do some sort of diagnostic upfront to find out what their interests are. Now, of course, a lot of salespeople, they do the whole thing about walking into the office, looking around, oh, I see a big buck hanging up there on the, Jay: mm-hmm. David: On the wall. The person’s a hunter. You start talking to them about hunting, that type of thing. And, it’s very obvious. It works in some situations to break the ice, so you can ask the person. Because the other thing about storytelling is it doesn’t just have to be you telling stories. If you can get the prospect to be telling stories to you, then they’ll be more likely to engage in a longer conversation because most people are more interested in hearing what they have to say versus what somebody else has to say. Jay: Yeah. David: So sometimes you can just let somebody talk for a long time and they feel like they had the best conversation, even though the salesman didn’t say anything at all. Jay: Yeah, I’ve had people like look at the pictures on the wall and stuff, and that can come off as so plastic and so fake. But I do think the most important thing is to get them talking. And the more talking they do and the less talking you do, the better off those things are. If you can get them to be the storyteller and then you can help them improve that story or tell them how that story’s going to get better, that’s the zone where you want to be. David: Yeah, exactly. And I think that a good sales process does that, in the sense that when you’re leading off with intelligent, probing questions that don’t come across as intrusive -it can’t be like you’re giving them the third degree. You got a light shining in their face. Jay: Yeah. David: And you’re trying to get information out of them. It can’t be anything like that. But if you’re asking intelligent, probing questions and you’re finding out about them, they’re going to open up more. And the more they talk, the better it is for you. Another thing that a lot of salespeople do is they mistakenly ask yes or no questions. They ask binary questions instead of open-ended questions. If you ask an open-ended question, they’re likely to talk more, which is going to allow the conversation to flow a lot more organically. They can tell stories. You can then potentially tell some sort of story about something that relates to something they said. Again, keeping it focused on them and what they need and what they’re looking to do. For salespeople, case studies, testimonials, things like that can be good stories as long as they’re not just being forced down people’s throats. If somebody’s talking about a promotion that they did or something that they did in the past that worked well, then you can acknowledge that. “Wow, that’s great. That sounds like that was really amazing. We had a similar situation with a client where this happened or that happened,” and then you can relate with that story. But that also brings up another thing. If somebody tells a story, then you don’t want to try to tell a story that’s designed to sound better than theirs. Mm-hmm. Right? So you don’t want to change gears. But if you can establish some sort of comradery among them by indicating that you’ve had similar experiences, then your stories will go a lot farther. Jay: Yeah. And I think a couple things from my own experience: don’t interrupt. Don’t cut them off. Right? Let them talk. But I think where people really miss out and you know that I interview people for part of my living, right? David: Mm-hmm. Jay: And I’ve been a professional interviewer for 20 years, and I find that the key is not the initial question. Yes, ask open-ended question. That’s very, very important. But the key is always the follow-up question, and that’s where people fall down. They ask the question, they got the person talking, and then they dive into their product spiel, right? If you ask a follow-up question, it shows that you’re listening. It shows that you’re interested. And it will take you places that you never ever thought you could go. Like I have interview s where people send a list of questions and I’m like, just so you know going to ask you follow up questions and we’ll bounce around, and those kind of things. And by the time they’re done, they’re energized and they just feel so appreciated. and it’s because of active listening and good follow up questions. David: Yes. And that is so completely critical in sales. Jay: Yeah. David: People who don’t get that are at a tremendous disadvantage. You know, one of the big advantages of storytelling is that it allows you to potentially infuse emotion into an emotionless conversation. Jay: Mm-hmm. David: A lot of sales conversations are very sort of clinical and product oriented and detail oriented and price oriented, and it’s hard to get somebody into the zone. It’s hard to get them emotionally positive about the idea of buying something without being able to trigger something inside. Otherwise, it’s just a list of details and facts and specifications where if we can get them engaged with how they feel about what the product or service is going to do for them, the end result that they’re getting. What’s the thing that they want to have happen as a result of engaging in this promotion or doing whatever it is that they’re going to do? If they can tell you that and get themselves into a state of enthusiasm over your product, they’re going to be a hundred times more likely to buy it. Jay: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that the natural fallback for salespeople is to focus on specifications. You know, I’ve been there on the car lot and the guy wants to show me all the specifics and horsepower and all those things. And then I’ve had people talk about, what are my goals and focusing more on my life than on this particular one item. It really shows, you know, more caring and that they’re more interested in me. David: It does, and you also have to be aware of the person you’re talking to. Because sometimes people will hear something like that and they’re like, I don’t want to get into that. Jay: Yeah. David: Just tell me how much it costs, or whatever. Jay: Yeah. David: And for some, that might be a disqualifier, right? Jay: Mm-hmm. David: And for others you say, okay, well I’ll provide the information. I’ll see if this goes anywhere. But a lot of times when people are unwilling to communicate at a deeper level, to me it indicates they’re not a good quality prospect to be interacting with. I was talking with someone earlier today. I had a situation where they booked a strategy session call with us and like had absolutely no idea why they were calling and Jay: mm, David: And so there was a video that they went to, to watch. He hadn’t watched the video and he is, he didn’t know why he was calling. And I said, well, listen, out of respect for your time, why don’t we do this? Take a look at the video, see if it makes sense for us to have a conversation. If it does, we can go back here and regroup. And he said, okay, fine. Right. So the call was over in three or four minutes. Jay: Yeah. David: But it was respectful for both of us. It was respectful of his time. It’s respectful of mine, and I think that all sales conversations need to do that. They need to be respectful of both the prospect and the salesperson. And too often, as salespeople, we feel so sort of humbled or so disadvantaged or whatever it is. we always put the needs of the prospect first. You’ve heard the customer’s always, right. Jay: Yeah. David: Which is not always true. Jay: Agreed. David: But you want to treat them as if it is. Particularly in the early stages, until you find out that it’s not the truth. But in those situations, if you recognize that your time is just as valuable as theirs, we all have a certain number of ticks on the clock. We don’t know what that number is. We want to make sure that we’re spending our time as well as possible, as productively as possible, with the people who are on the same wavelength and who are ready to interact with us. Jay: Yeah. And that goes back to the podcast we did recently about pre-qualifying people and really finding out ahead of time if they really, you know, fit within your business model and those kind of things. But, you know, a lot of times you’re not going to know unless you just start talking to somebody and you start asking them questions and I think if you’re doing this right, it’s not going to feel plastic, it’s not going to feel fake. I have a genuine desire to learn about people and to find out about them. David: Yeah. Jay: And you know, if that’s what you’re doing, they’re going to sense that. If you’re just doing it to, okay, now let’s cut to the chase and let’s get to the details and hopefully I can sell you. They’ll sense that too, David: Right. Yeah. I think that if our storytelling allows us to build trust, Build credibility, build a bond, then we’re telling the right stories. If it’s just designed to distract and be a shiny object to try to get them to tell something. If it’s designed to be manipulative, then save your breath. Jay: Yeah, absolutely. How do people find out more, David? David: You can go to TopSecrets.com/call, schedule a call with myself or my team. There’s actually a video right on that page. What I would encourage you to do, it says at the top right there, before you schedule a call, watch this video. So take a look at that, get an idea of how we’re helping other people, what it does for other people. If it makes sense for you, then you can just scroll down and you can schedule a call and we can work with you essentially to find out where you are now in your business versus where you want to be. We can look at your visibility in the marketplace. How are you doing in terms of visibility, in terms of sales, in terms of profit? And just walk you through a couple of things will allow you to maybe think more clearly in terms of how you can get from where you are now to where you want to be. So it’s TopSecrets.com/call. Love to have a conversation with you. Jay: And I’m sure you’ll tell ’em a great story. David: I just might! Jay: David. It’s always a pleasure. David: Thanks Jay. Are You Ready to Tell More Stories that Lead to Sales? If so, check out a few ways we can help: Just Getting Started? If you (or someone on your team) is just getting started in promotional product sales, learn how we can help. Ready to Grow & Scale Your Business Fast? If you're an established distributor serious about growing your sales and profits now, check out this case study and schedule a call with our team. Need EQP/Preferential Pricing? If you're an established distributor doing a decent volume of sales, click here to get End Quantity Pricing from many of the top supplier lines in the promo industry.

David You have been working in Italy for half the year in Italy for a large part of your life. What drew you to Italy in the first place?You always return to La Serenissima. What is it about Venice that you love the most?Is Venice your favourite place in Italy to paint and why?What do you call your style of art?You also do portraits – Is there certain features of a person or the pose that makes an interesting portrait do you think?You lead educational tours to Italy and Europe and have been allowed into some magnificent villas and museums. Tell us about the most interesting places or institutions that you have seen in Italy? You always have an exhibition in Brisbane of your paintings? When is this exhibition normally.You can contact David hereHome | David HendersonView video of David's painting in VeniceDavid Henderson | visualartist.info Produced by Gemma Green Close, Passion For Italy Travel. pfitravel.com. info@pfitravel.com

Patrick opens this episode by sharing a strong endorsement of FOCUS and highlights stories from listeners with personal connections to the organization, adding depth through real-life experiences. Questions about Catholic teaching, miracles, and the challenges of living out faith spark candid exchanges, Patrick addresses complex topics like attending same-sex weddings, handling miscarriage, and supporting those with same-sex attraction, always rooting his answers in scripture and Church tradition while encouraging thoughtful dialogue. Unexpected turns come when calls about persistent prayer, lost faith, and active charity fill the conversation with urgency and hope. Lorraine (email) - Do you have an opinion on the organization called FOCUS? (00:43) Patrick shares a Pastoral Letter to the Faithful from Bishop Schlert from the Diocese of Allentown (03:19) Noreen - I am a mom of two FOCUS Missionaries. The dating fast is for one year. I hope people can sponsor them. (08:08) J.A. - What do you think of the Black Nazarene statue in the Philippines? (10:23) Monica - Pastor said that nowhere in the Bible does it say you can't go to a gay wedding. How should I respond? (13:43) David - You were discussing someone who is dying a few days ago. I would tell people not to worry about their loved ones. Even at the last moment someone can repent. (22:49) Email – We miscarried in the first trimester, and we want to honor our baby. There’s no body, so how do we provide a proper burial for our baby? (25:16) Back to caller David – It’s never too late to come to Jesus (32:35) Dennis - On the last caller who references gay marriage, in 1 Corinthians 7 it does talk about gay marriage. It talks about the purpose of marriage being to prevent sexual immorality. If two people love one another, that should be respected. (36:52) Deacon Shawn - We have sponsored FOCUS students for the last two years. FOCUS is great at accompaniment. (46:20) Heidi - Courage is a great ministry to support people with same sex attraction so that they don't have to go it alone. (48:48)

The Life of David You are to be content with what you have in Christ, for only in Him you have your peace, for only He has atoned for your sin. James 1:13-15

2 Samuel 12 is about the LORD's restoration of David from his low ebb of wilful sin against his Heavenly Father to the time of David's resuming full and free fellowship with God. The prophet Nathan is sent to king David with a parable that was designed to wake the king from his state of selfishness and stir him into a recognition of what he had done. Only true repentance could restore him and the lesson learnt becomes an impetus for each of us to turn to the LORD to find healing. Nathan tells a parable about a wealthy arrogant and self centred man who takes from the poor man a precious ewe lamb, that was like a daughter to that man. How typical it is for some wealthy individuals to believe that the destitute exist for them to be exploited. This, however, was not characteristic of David. And so David was enraged at the lack of pity which the rich man had shown. Sin was the traveller who came to David and who caused David to behave uncharacteristically. The king commanded the death of the rich man and compensation of four times the loss be paid to the poor man. This was of course what the Law had demanded for a trespass offering. This offering spoke of restitution for deceit in relation to the holy things. Nathan dramatically says to David: You are the man. David fully understands his guilt, deception and lack of pity. David is condemned by his own mouth and is worthy to die. No offering could cover his sin. All he could do was to throw himself upon the mercy of the Almighty. The prophet says that the sword would not depart from David's house. David was to pay with the loss of four sons - the child that was born of his adultery with Bathsheba, Absalom, Amnon and Adonijah. As king David had done with Uriah's wife Bathsheba, so would David's son  - Absalom - do with the wives of his father David - but openly before all Israel. Nathan tells the king that Yahweh has put away David's transgression. Our sins will be forgiven if we repent and turn our hearts to our Sovereign. That doesn't mean that there will not be consequences flowing from our wrongs. Verses 16-23 tells us that the child born to Bathsheba became sick and died. David entreated his Maker to allow the child to live. The king was full of contrition and afflicted himself with fasting and not allowing music in his presence. When his son died David's servants were frightened to tell him lest he do something regrettable. But David rose up and washed putting on fresh clothes. They asked him why? He said he had hoped that God would show mercy to the child, but now the child had died entreating was pointless. David would, when he died, join his son in the unconscious sleep of death. Consolation was given to David and Bathsheba in the birth of another son who was born in a manner that pleased their Heavenly Father. Verse 26 records that Yahweh loved this child who was given the epithet - Jedidiah meaning "loved of Yah" and that child was later named Solomon meaning "peaceful". After being forgiven David wrote Psalms 32 and 51 to celebrate the mercy and loving kindness of the LORD God Almighty and to teach others about turning to their loving Father in the time of their need - see also Paul's comments in Romans 4 verses 5-8. 2 Samuel 12 finishes by describing the fall of Rabbah to Joab and the army and Joab's summoning David to be there as the city fell. It also describes David being crowned with the crown of the king of Rabbah and the great treasure taken. The Ammonites were then put to rigorous work by David.  Jeremiah 16 verses 1-4 tell of the LORD commanding Jeremiah not to marry because of the nearing judgments of God on Judah. The nation would be destroyed through famine, warfare and diseases leaving their carcasses as unburied dung on the ground. Verses 5-9 speak of the vast extent of the destruction. There would be no time to mourn the dead because of the uproar and chaos that rapidly spread over Judah. Normal life would be suspended as the exiles were dragged away with hooks through their bodies. In verses 10-13 the nation would bemoan their condition and protest that they did not deserve such treatment. Verses 14-21 foretell their restoration by their Almighty Sovereign. At that time Yahweh would be known for His deliverance of His people from the northern captivity rather than when He had earlier gained a Name for delivering His nation from Egypt. Verses 16-18 reveal that prior to this time of restoring GOD would save them from life threatening destruction. Modern Israel came through great pogroms and near extinction during the Nazi holocaust. The Nazis were the "hunters" whereas the Zionists - such as Theodore Hertzl - were the "fishers" who sought to entice Jewish people to return to their ancestral homeland - Israel: see Ezekiel 37-38, Deuteronomy 28 verses 64-68. Verses 19-21 say that eventually Israel would acknowledge their sins and idolatry and finally return to the true and living God. In that day Israel will know their God by experience and not just theoretically: Ezekiel 37:28; 38 verse 23, Joel 3 verses 14-21; Romans 11 verses 13-24. Matthew 27 starts with Judas hanging himself when he saw that Jesus would not take his kingdom then, but would wrongfully suffer and submit to death. Then follow six sham trials - three before Jewish authorities and three before Roman officials. The marvel of our Lord's submission, his care and compassion for others is evident in the brief record of his crucifixion. Our Lord Jesus was totally in control of his mind despite being brutally scourged by the Romans - scourging was called the intermediate death for many a man died under the flaying of his flesh. Pilate may have hoped that the Jews would have pity on Jesus when he said: "Behold the man". But sadly  they did not. Then our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified. On the stake he spoke seven wonderful sayings - each of these from the holy Scriptures. Note our Lord Jesus' incredible submission to his wrongful treatment and contemplate the lessons that Peter draws for us in 1 Peter 2 verses18-25. That Jesus had mastery over himself as well as triumphing over his foes the Apostle Paul tells us: Colossians 2 verses 11-15. Jesus was buried in the unused tomb of Joseph of Aramithea, in fulfilment of the prophecy of Isaiah 53 verse 9. A guard  of four temple soldiers was placed at the mouth of his tomb. This would contribute to the incontrovertible evidence that would accompany our Lord Jesus' resurrection.

Jesus Delivered Us (6) (audio) David Eells – 7/20/25 We don't want to look too far down the road or worry about the “giants” that are in our Promised Land, because the Bible says, (Mat.6:34) Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Just take the steps that are in front of you to come against the flesh and come against the spirits. Do the spiritual warfare that you can. He says, “Oh that my people would hearken unto me … I would soon subdue their enemies.” If you just walk in the right direction and swing your Sword, you are going to win the battle. (Jos.10:8) And the Lord said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thy hands; there shall not a man of them stand before thee. If you repent of what you know is wrong and hold fast to faith, you cannot help but win the battle. (Psa.81:14) I would soon subdue their enemies, and turn my hand against their adversaries. (15) The haters of the Lord should submit themselves unto him: But their time should endure for ever. (16) He would feed them also with the finest of the wheat; And with honey out of the rock would I satisfy thee. These are God's promises to us, but in your Promised Land, it is up to you, not the Lord, to give no place to the devil (Ephesians 4:27). Nowhere in Scripture are we to pray for the Lord to conquer our Promised Land. He gave us that authority, and He told us to take up our Sword and put the original inhabitants of the land to death. (Exo.23:32) Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. These are the lusts of the flesh and demon spirits. Make no covenant, no treaty, with them, although it's very easy to do because your flesh is always trying to bribe you or buy you out. Your flesh is always trying to get you to justify your position so that you can feel good while you live in the lusts of the flesh, but God says, “Make no covenant with them.” Have no affinity, no accord, with them. Do not humble yourself to them; instead, be merciless. God told them when they went into the Promised Land to have no mercy. (Deu.7:2) And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them. He wanted them to kill their enemies who controlled their land. There was one tribe, the Gibeonites, who deceived the Israelites into making a covenant with them (Joshua 9), and God was angry about that. Those Gibeonites ended up being a real thorn in their side (Joshua 10:1-28; 2 Samuel 21:1-14). (Num.33:55) But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then shall those that ye let remain of them be as pricks in your eyes, and as thorns in your sides, and they shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. God said, “Have no mercy; slaughter them.” This is a type of us coming against our old lusts. He warned, (Exo.23:33) They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me; for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee. This is the truth, and so He said, “They shall not dwell in your land.” Remember that God does not order us to do anything that we cannot do through His power. (Php.4:13) I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me. People love to use this verse for material things but think about the spiritual things for which you can use this verse. You can overcome any lust of the flesh. Pray and examine your life and see what lust it is that has been taking advantage of you. Write it down and give some thought to it. Exercise faith against it because you have authority over that lust, and you will win when you swing your sword. That is God's promise. The best defense is a good offense, and when you go against the devil, being on the offense is the thing that brings him confusion. If you do not act to swing your sword, he is going to conquer you. That means we don't have any other choice but to take up our Sword and go into our Promised Land and win this battle. I know there are a lot of groups out there promoting instant sanctification through deliverance. People say, “Make it easy on me! Just cast all the demons out of me!” Well, we're wrestling with principalities, powers and rulers of darkness (Ephesians 6:12) and there are no shortcuts; there are some things we have to do. You have to obey the Word of God, understand your authority, and exercise your authority over these demons. If you do that, the results can be dramatic; however, there is no way to get around repentance. You cannot cast demons out of people who will not repent; you will just waste your time and the demons will run you in circles. The Bible says, (1Jn.1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Unrighteousness not only includes the demons, but also the lusts of the flesh. Demons come and prey upon the lusts of the flesh. The Lord Jesus said, (Joh.14:30) … for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me. There was no “place,” no foothold, no ground in Him. (Eph.4:27) Neither give place (That's the Greek word topon meaning “place” or “region.”) to the devil. If you are “giving ground” to the devil, he will be there, and if you try to cast him out, he is still going to be there. If you are giving ground to him, he has a legal right to be there and he knows it. The devil knows his rights. The devil is a really good lawyer and he knows this Word better than you. There are no shortcuts, Saints. If you want deliverance from a demon that has been giving you trouble, maybe all of your life, you first have to confess your sins. The demon may have been passed on to you through your parents or come through your giving in to sin; if there is no confession, you will not prosper against that demon. (Pro.28:13) He that covereth his transgressions shall not prosper (He is not going to conquer his Promised Land, but it goes on to say,): Whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall obtain mercy. There's the condition, and here it is again. (Pro.28:18) Whoso walketh uprightly shall be delivered; But he that is perverse in his ways shall fall at once There is no shortcut in deliverance. If you don't confess but still somehow manage to get the demon out, he will come right back. He will just laugh at you or feign obedience and hide himself. You will not have accomplished a thing. You'll soon find out that you have the same problem and you'll wonder why it did not work. The reason it didn't work is because you did not obey. Do you want deliverance that gives you power and authority over the devil? Repentance with confession is the only way. It is the Blood that causes the death angel to pass over, and how is the Blood “applied”? (1Jn.1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin. It takes repentance to walk in the light, but a lot of people don't want to hear about the repentance part. They say, “Just come and cast these demons out of me.” This is why I say to examine yourself and find out if there is something you need to confess, and not just confess it to the Lord. The Bible says, (Jas.5:16) Confess therefore your sins one to another… Find somebody who is trustworthy and confess your sin to them; you don't need to confess your sin in front of everybody unless you have offended everybody. You see, God wants to humble you; that's why He says to confess your sins one to another. God does not want us to cover up our sin. It's easy to confess your sin to God and then just go on covering it up. There's a great motivation to turn from sin when you know that God expects you to confess your sin to someone. It has to be true repentance when confession is made. Don't be fooled by self-pity, because that can look a lot like repentance, but it might just be self-pity, which is what Esau had, and he lost his inheritance. (Heb.12:17) For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind (That's what “repentance” is, it's a “change of mind.”) [in his father, (Not in the Greek)] though he sought it diligently with tears. He could not change HIS mind. You may have seen people cry, with tears running freely, yet they never change their ways. “Repentance” is not crying; “repentance” is “changing your mind.” There are many people full of self-pity because of the curse upon them. They want the curse off of them, but they're not willing to pay the price to get it. (Heb.12:14) Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord (This doesn't sound as if sanctification is an instantaneous process here, if He said to “follow after” it.): looking carefully lest there be any man that falleth short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby the many be defiled (Yes, bitterness can defile a lot of people, and this is why it needs to be dealt with immediately.); (16) lest there be any fornication, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat (He was following after the flesh.) sold his own birthright. (17) For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected (He was “reprobated.”); for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears. You may wonder, “Well, what was wrong with his repentance?” It looks as if it was just self-pity. Godly sorrow brings repentance that does not let you turn and go back. (2Co.7:9) I now rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye were made sorry unto repentance (The Greek word there is metanoia and it means “a change of mind, change in the inner man.”); for ye were made sorry after a godly sort, that ye might suffer loss by us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation, a repentance which bringeth no regret (You will not fall back into the sin.): but the sorrow of the world worketh death. Do you know why “the sorrow of the world worketh death”? It's because when people are “sorry” in the way that the world understands “sorry,” they think that's all they need for God to forgive them, but then they fall right back into the sin. Seeing no power of God, they become discouraged and just go back into the world. We are responsible to repent, not just to be sorry. We must have sorrow unto repentance. The Bible says you have to change your mind and changing your mind may not even involve tears. I've seen people who blame all their problems on demons. These people run around looking for somebody to get the demons out of them, and if you try to help such people but fail, they'll blame you. In their eyes, it's your fault. It's always everybody's fault, except theirs. Getting demons out of people who sincerely repent and believe is not a problem, but the shallower a person's depth of commitment and repentance, the harder it is to get the demons out. If commitment to discipleship and repentance is deep, it's very easy to get demons out because God is always on your side. He is always there with discernment and direction. He is always there to force the demons to the surface. It's easy to get demons out of a repentant person. It's very hard to get them out of a person whose “repentance” is very shallow. Now, when we talk about the warfare of our mind, the Bible says we are to be (2Co.10:5) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. This is our spiritual warfare, because the primary way that the devil gets a foothold is when you don't cast down thinking that is not of God. Most demons come because you have given in to sin, and demon spirits are also passed on to us genetically through the blood. You can do something about that, too, but before or even after you came to the Lord, in some way, you gave in to sin. If you ask, “David, do you mean that before I came to the Lord, I had demons, and I still have them now that I've come to the Lord?” Yes, you need to remember that the Lord said He would not drive them all out at one time, and He meant that. Now it's possible that when people come to the Lord, some may receive total deliverance over areas of their lives that you're still wrestling with. You are wrestling with something; they are wrestling with something else. Some parts of their lives have been cleansed, and some parts of your life have been cleansed. God has left you some enemies to fight, and He has left them some enemies to fight. There are things in your former life that were dealt with by the Blood of Jesus, and now they are gone, and their gods are gone, too. They have been conquered. I am not talking about going back and dealing with sins that are covered by and washed in the Blood or things from which you are already delivered, but there are some things that we had in our former life that we carried over into this life. The temptation, the struggle, and the demon are still there. Those things that may still be troubling you were there in your former life. Before you were born again, that demon entered in and that's why you're having to deal with those temptations right now. Maybe it's a temptation that you've had all of your life, and demons are still taking advantage of you because that sin has not been washed in the Blood. Otherwise, you would have been cleansed of all unrighteousness. (1Jn.1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin. This is the cleansing, washing away, of the nature of sin. Of course, our whole life is under the Blood by faith, but when God pulls back that Covering, letting you see a particular sin, then it's time for you to take the Sword and come against it. But when you're in a trial of your faith, don't go back and dredge up those things that are gone, because that's just the devil trying to condemn you for things done in your past. The apostle Paul tells us how to deal with that problem. (Php.3:12) Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus. (13) Brethren, I could not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing [I do], forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, (14) I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. God led His people through the Promised Land to be faced with enemies one at a time, and that's the way for us every day. Little by little, we are faced with our enemies, our temptations, and that's when the old flesh rises up and gives you the chance to swing your Sword. You might never have seen that particular enemy without a trial that caused the temptation to come to the surface. People like to pray away trials, but you see, God brings us through trials to show us the enemy. You cannot pray away trials because (Act.14:22) … through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God. It is tribulation itself that causes you to enter into the Kingdom. You are faced with something that causes the lusts of the flesh to surface, so that you get to see them and fight them and get free of them. This reminds me of Peter speaking to Ananias. (Act.5:3) Why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit …? Ananias was responsible for that sin. Peter was not blaming the sin on the demon; he was blaming the sin on the person. (1Co.5:7) Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump… In this chapter, Paul speaks of fornicators, liars, drunkards, and so forth, telling them to (1Co.5:13) … Put away the wicked man from among yourselves. You may protest, “Wait a minute, David! They just have demons! They need deliverance!” No, the Bible says those people are responsible for giving in to that demon, so that means the demon is not responsible. If people are believers, then they have the power to repent and conquer that demon. When we understand that we are responsible for sin, then we understand that we have to repent. There is only one instance in the Scriptures where it teaches that the person to be delivered does not have to repent. (Mar.5:1) And they (the apostles) came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes. (2) And when he (Jesus) was come out of the boat, straightway there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit. You find in Scripture that these spirits are called “unclean spirits.” “Spirits of infirmity” are also called “unclean spirits.” (Mark 1:23,9:25; Luke 9:42; etc.) Well, an “unclean spirit” is just a demon, and all demons are unclean. (2) …, straightway there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, (3) who had his dwelling in the tombs: and no man could any more bind him, no, not with a chain; (4) because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been rent asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: and no man had strength to tame him. Christians have physically wrestled and fought with those who have demons, but you should never do that. Your authority only stands as Jesus' authority. He gave you the authority to cast out demons. If you get out from under your God-given authority and into the flesh, the demons can hurt you. Just exercise your authority and command them to “Sit down and be quiet in the Name of Jesus.” Believe and they will obey you. (Mar.5:5) And always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones. (Every last one of these demons causes one to be self-destructive, and they are out to destroy you, too.) (6) And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him; (7) and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? (When they become excited or are faced with authority, many times, they cry out with a loud voice.) I adjure thee by God, torment me not. (8) For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man. The Bible says, (Mat.8:16) … and he cast out the spirits with a word. With the man in the tombs, He commanded it, upsetting the demon, and the demon began speaking. Sometimes when you command them to come out, they will start speaking. They will sit and talk with you all day long if you encourage dialogue, because they would like to deceive you with all kinds of information. This is not what you want. Our example is (Luk.4:35) And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst, he came out of him, having done him no hurt. Just tell them, “Shut up and come out.” Do not seek knowledge from a demon by speaking with them. This is an abomination in the sight of the Lord (Deuteronomy 18:10; Exodus 22:18; 1 Chronicles 10:13; etc.) People like to use this next verse to say that we should ask demons questions, but as we can see, this is not the norm. (Mar.5:9) And he asked him, What is thy name? (This is the only example in Scripture where Jesus asked a demon, “What is your name?”) And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many. There is generally a “captain,” a lead spirit in the bunch, who speaks for all, and many people in deliverance ministry have gotten this revelation by talking with demons. Here, it is very clear. (Mar.5:9) … My name is Legion; for we are many. (10) And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. In another account, the demons asked not to be sent to the pit. (Luk.8:31) And they entreated him that he would not command them to depart into the abyss. Commanding demons to go to the pit seems to be common among deliverance ministries. Well, we do not have that example, not one, in Scripture. Jesus did not command that here, and if there had been a reason to put those demons out of commission, don't you think that Jesus would have sent them to the pit? Demons have a good purpose on this earth, and that is to torment those who love sin, as we learned earlier. Remember the example of Paul turning Hymenaeus and Alexander over to Satan (1Ti.1:20) … that they might be taught not to blaspheme. It was to teach them a lesson. Another example from Paul was the man in fornication with his father's wife in (1Co.5:5) to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. When a person has repented, Jesus wants them to be delivered, but the job of demons is to make life miserable until you decide to repent. Even if all the demons you ever cast out were sent to the pit, there still would be more than enough left to handle the job. Let me share a testimony with you:   Sins of Flesh Fell Off Me by M. G. I was living and working in Japan when I first heard David speaking the real gospel of Jesus. I was always looking into eschatology and prophecy because I reckon the Lord was softening me up to hear the truth. I was a bit afraid of the end, as I was not a very godly person…. I'm not really sure how I found the teachings. I was at “The Edge Radio Show” on the internet and decided to listen to David in the archives. I had never heard of him. To my knowledge, I wasn't looking for anything he had to say, but the Lord led me to listen. I was raised Baptist and heard all that “fire and brimstone” from shouting, gasping old-time Baptist preachers. It never did that much for me. I've heard what the Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, and even some Pentecostals had to say. But I never heard anyone speak with true power, authority and anointing, till I heard him speak that day on the computer. It knocked my socks off! I had never heard anything like it! And it was shot through completely with the glow of TRUTH. It spoke to my heart. I listened to all that he had to say and put it in my heart. It didn't lead me down the road right away to the crucified life and/or even a much closer walk with the Lord, but the seed had been planted. I was covered up with the cares of this wretched world. It probably took me another year before I started going to the UBM website, listening to the audios and coming to the Paltalk meetings. [Paltalk was an interactive chat we had during the live broadcast; we now have online teachings and the Outreach conferences twice weekly.] I started praying and seeking the Lord. I was devouring the teachings online with every free moment, learning a great deal. I received the baptism of water and the Holy Spirit. A lot, but not all, of the sin of my past life just fell away. I sought prayer in faith and agreement from UBM to quit smoking and drinking to excess, and it happened. My deliverance was not overnight, but all that stuff just withered on the vine over a period of weeks. I never even had any withdrawal symptoms. I just never smoked, or wanted to smoke, another cigarette ever again. All these things happened by the power of the risen Christ. I would never have been able to do it on my own. I had been a big smoker and drinker for almost thirty years. Try as I might, I had never been able to give up those bad habits.  I praise God for His love and mercy on me. I've never been tempted to smoke another cigarette, ever. I never get the feeling, “Oh, boy, do I need a drink!” It just doesn't happen. Praise His Name! Whenever I feel weak in my faith, I always hang on to the knowledge of the deliverance given to me by my loving Father through His Son, Our Lord Jesus. Now, demons are going to seek a body to live in because that is where they have what they call “rest.” The demon addressing Jesus said in (Mar.5:7) … What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not. They know that they are supposed to have rest until the “time” (Matthew 8:29). Jesus said (Mat.12:43) But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not. He returns to the house out of which he came. They do not find rest in “waterless places.” It would be like you having to go through a desert; it's not where you want to go, is it? You would like to go where things are comfortable and cool, where there is plenty of water. It is torment to a demon to be outside of a body because in the pit, the abyss, there is no flesh for them through which they can fulfill their lusts. That's the problem for them, so on earth, they always want a body to inhabit, even if that body is an animal. (Mar.5:11) Now there was there on the mountain side a great herd of swine feeding. (12) And they besought him (Jesus), saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. (13) And he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the sea, [in number] about two thousand; and they were drowned in the sea. They really want to fulfill their lusts through people, but if they cannot have people, they will use pigs, etc.. I have talked to demons and there is a chain of command with them, a hierarchy. A lot of lower demons are extremely stupid; the lusts consuming them trip them up. For instance, they may be so prideful and so arrogant, wanting to show themselves, that they'll tip their hand. You will know what they are doing. And you'll find that the further down the line you go, the more stupid they are. Didn't the demons know that pigs cannot swim? How long are demons going to last in a herd of pigs that have been run off into a lake? The Bible tells us that Satan's wisdom was corrupted because of his beauty. (Eze.28:17) Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I have cast thee to the ground; I have laid thee before kings, that they may behold thee. If he had wisdom, he would have stayed where he was in heaven, but instead, his wisdom became corrupted. Demons cause destruction, as with the demoniac and the pigs. They cause whatever flesh they are in to be self-destructive. (I'm going to share some testimonies showing demons' destructive tendencies.) Notice that at the beginning of the story of the demoniac, it's just the leader, Legion, who is speaking (Luke 8:26), but as soon as Jesus commands them to come out, all of them start speaking (Luke 8:31-32). Many times when you are dealing with demons, more of them will manifest, and after you cast one out, sometimes another one will manifest. The Holy Spirit is causing them to manifest themselves as the Lord is driving them out before you. If you suspect something else is there, you have the authority to command a demon to manifest. You should be aware, also, that demons love to distract people and they'll put on a show for you, but don't get caught up in their theatrics. (Mar.9:25) And when Jesus saw that a multitude came running together (He did not want a spectacle.), he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I command thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. Some people will help the demons put on a show, but we should avoid that at all costs. Our example is Jesus, and nowhere did Jesus let them put on a show. Actually, it's best to avoid having conversations with them. I have read quite a few books by deliverance ministers who got into trouble because they talked to demons that lied to them. There was one man who had a good understanding of deliverance, but this man was casting “tongue demons” out of everybody. He didn't know that all demons can talk in tongues. The Bible says, (1Co.13:1) If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels… There is no “tongues” demon since all demons talk in tongues because they are fallen angels. These demons were obliging to this man's false doctrine by playing along with it to keep him in bondage. They will deceive you any way they can! This deliverance minister needed tongues, more than anything else, in order to cast out demons. Demons hate tongues. People report that demons actually spoke to them, saying, “Don't speak in tongues! That is a perfect prayer! Don't do that! We hate that!” I have had them scream out because they hated the Gospel being preached, and they do not like the Blood of Jesus. If you cannot do anything else, pray in tongues. Well, because this man had let the demons talk, they had deceived him into thinking that tongues were no good. Because he had let the demons talk, they had deceived him into believing that this was a “tongues” demon, a deceiving spirit. Now, remember that speaking in tongues doesn't make you holy. Many people who speak in tongues are in sin. Do you recall the people about whom the apostle Paul was writing that they should be thrown out of the church? (1Co.5:11) But as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. These people spoke in tongues, but that does not mean you are holy; following and obeying the Holy Spirit makes you holy. The Bible says in (Rom.11:29) For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of. God will give you a gift that will stay with you to the grave, even if you are going to hell. Paul said, (1Co.9:27) but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected. And this man said in 1Co 14:18  I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:  A lot of deliverance ministries believe in casting demons into the pit, but that's not what Jesus did. Jesus never sent them to the pit. Let's read the rest of this story. (Mar.5:12) And they besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. (13) And he gave them leave. Why did Jesus permit the demons their request? Most people, according to reasoning, would have said, “Send them out of the country. That way, they won't be able to bother anybody else.” I personally have had demons ask me whether they could enter into a dog, and I told them, “No, but you can find the nearest cockroach and enter into it!” Usually, I say, “No, you just come out!” You do not have to permit them to enter into anything. Demons are going to search until they find a vessel that they can enter because that's how they fulfill their lusts, and there's a demon for anybody who wants to sin. It makes no difference where you send them. You are not going to get rid of them. (Rev.9:2) And he opened the pit of the abyss; and there went up a smoke (smoke represents demons.) out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. There are millions of them, enough to darken the sun, so sending them to the pit does not make sense. If God wanted them out of the country or in the pit, that is where they would be, but He does not want that. They are here to torment mankind until men and women repent and come under the Blood of Jesus. Jesus did not send them out of the country because He understood the sovereignty of God. (Mar.5:13) And he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the sea, [in number] about two thousand; and they were drowned in the sea. Obviously, Jesus thought that this one man was worth more than two thousand pigs, which Jews were not supposed to have anyway. (Mar.5:14) And they that fed them fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they came to see what it was that had come to pass. (15) And they come to Jesus, and behold him that was possessed with demons sitting, clothed and in his right mind, even him that had the legion: and they were afraid. Unclean spirits like people to take off their clothes. And you know, there's certainly a lot of half-naked people walking around these days, and they all probably have unclean spirits. I want to emphasize one particular point about “the man with the unclean spirits.” Think about what that last verse says, “clothed and in his right mind.” When this man first saw Jesus, he was not in his right mind and so there was no way he could have repented. You cannot demand repentance from a person who is this demon-possessed. Some people say, “Well, a Christian cannot be demon-possessed because they are possessed by the Lord,” but Scriptures use the term “possessed” (Matthew 8:16,9:32,12:22; Mark 1:32,9:17; Luke 8:27; etc.) To be considered “demon-possessed,” a person could have a demon in possession of only one particular part of their Promised Land. It might possess them as an infirmity or in an area of their lusts. A possession of part of your nature has nothing to do with possessing your whole character, and very seldom does it go that far, however, “Legion” was possessing this man's whole mind. This man could not use his mind rationally at all, and since Jesus said, (Mat.15:24) … I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, I suggest to you that this man was a Jew, and as a “child of God,” he had a Covenant right to deliverance. Otherwise, Jesus would not have done it. There are certain conditions under which we can cast demons out of a person without the person's permission. Jesus did not get permission from this man, but Jesus knew that He had a legal right to deliver this person. Just keep in mind that repentance is demanded in almost every place where a person has the mental capacity to repent. We do not generally have a right to go to demon-possessed people who are in the world. An exception would be where we consider that the faith of their family is involved; they are exercising faith for this person. Another exception would be that they are Christian, overcome by lusts of the flesh, and by the devil. Another would be by God's direction. Here's another testimony:   Healed of Epilepsy by the Lounsbury Brothers Email #1 (From Guatemalan missionary Wes to his brother Walt): The Lord has put someone in our path that needs HIS healing. She's around seventeen years old with epilepsy. Six years ago she had a seizure and fell into a fire. She must have been there for quite some time because her feet almost got cooked off. She went to a clinic. They carved out some of the burned flesh, leaving her feet resembling stubs. Besides the massive amounts of scar tissue, she has an external ulcer that has not healed from the accident. Yesterday she came to the orphanage with her mother and sister. We prayed over some hot water and had her soak her foot with the ulcer in it. The raw flesh on the ulcer was yellow, like dried pus. After about forty-five minutes of soaking, we took out the foot, cleaned it and wrapped it with a gauze bandage. They came back today for us to change the bandage again. We soaked the foot again to loosen the gauze, which was saturated with some type of dried, oozing substance. Getting that last part off, which was directly in contact with the ulcer was difficult because it had adhered quite strongly. As we pulled it off, we noticed that the once yellow tissue had turned a very healthy pink! The capillaries were so close to the surface that there was a small amount of bleeding. Trevor and I BELIEVE that God is healing this girl. Think of Joshua circling Jericho for seven days before it fell. He would have felt pretty stupid walking around with a trumpet if the Lord hadn't PROMISED him beforehand. The same thing applies here. Please spend time in prayer for her and give David a call, asking him to pray, also. When Trevor blessed her today, he asked the Lord to make her healing a witness for all those who know of her. Truly, this is our hope. I've been wondering if she wasn't demonically possessed with epilepsy—she was thrown into the fire, much like the mad man cutting himself with rocks and the epileptic that Jesus healed by casting out the demon. I never like thinking someone has an evil spirit inside of them. Could you ask David if he knows how to determine such a thing? He said in “Sovereign God” that he has the gift of discernment of spirits. As much as you can help would be greatly appreciated. Email #2 (From Walt to David Eells): Please pray with me and ask the Lord for a miracle to heal this young girl down in Guatemala. Emails #3 & 4 (From David Eells to Walt): We will pray and agree with you. Epilepsy is a demon spirit. (Mat.17:15) Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is epileptic, and suffereth grievously; for oft-times he falleth into the fire, and oft-times into the water. (16) And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. (17) And Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you? bring him hither to me. (18) And Jesus rebuked him; and the demon went out of him: and the boy was cured from that hour. (19) Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast it out? (20) And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Is the girl a Christian? If so, she has a Covenant right to deliverance because it is the children's bread. If not, only God can give permission to cast out. Otherwise, the demons will just come back worse. Ask her to confess her sins. My suggestion is to ask those involved to pray for discernment of spirits. Demons rarely act alone. Gather several people with faith, preferably filled with the Holy Spirit, and command the demons to come out in Jesus' Name. Then believe that they have to obey because Jesus gave us total authority over the demons. (Mar.16:17) And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons… Don't believe whatever they say because they often lie. Ask them to believe to heal and restore her body. Jesus paid for that too: (Gal.3:13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (14) that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (1Pe.2:24) Who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed. (Psa.103:1) Bless the Lord, O my soul; And all that is within me, [bless] his holy name. (2) Bless the Lord, O my soul, And forget not all his benefits: (3) Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; Who healeth all thy diseases; (4) Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; Who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies. (Mat.8:16) And when even was come, they brought unto him many possessed with demons: and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all that were sick: (17) that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying: Himself took our infirmities, and bare our diseases. (Act.3:12) And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk? (13) The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. (14) But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, (15) and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. (16) And by faith in his name hath his name made this man strong, whom ye behold and know: yea, the faith which is through him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. (Act.5:16) And there also came together the multitudes from the cities round about Jerusalem, bringing sick folk, and them that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. Emails #5 & 6 (Between Wes and David in a Q & A format) Wes: Hi! Walt forwarded your email about the girl with epilepsy to me. She, her mother and sister are staying with us now. The open ulcer on her foot is getting better every day. David: Praise God! Let's continue to believe for a total restoration of the foot! God is big. We shouldn't underestimate Him. Wes: Two nights ago I couldn't go to sleep, although it was 1:00 a.m. and I was exhausted. I decided to go downstairs and work on a paper I was writing. I was using a computer program to search for texts. I can't remember which words I was searching, but I came upon the story in Matthew about the epileptic. Now this might sound very strange to you, but I'm almost certain that I read the word “epileptic” from the “King James Version.” It wasn't until the next day, when I read it again, I realized they had actually translated the word as “lunatic” in the KJV. Could it be that the Lord actually had me read “epileptic” instead, because of this girl? David: Absolutely, Wes. God has done such things as that to me, also. I have heard people tell me things that I needed to hear. Later, I questioned them as to why they said it. I would then be told by the person and everyone around them that they had actually said something totally unrelated. Wes: What struck me most about the story was when the father said to Jesus, “Have mercy on my son: for he is epileptic, and suffereth grievously; for oft-times he falleth into the fire.” That's EXACTLY what happened to this girl! Six years ago her mother left the house and went to town to get something from the store. (They live in complete poverty in a village a few miles from here.) The girl usually woke up later in the morning, so her mother felt it was safe to leave early. When she came back, she found her daughter lying in the fire, the flesh completely cooked on one foot and third-degree burns on the other. After I read those verses, I wondered if this girl had an evil spirit. Their stories are so similar. David: She has an epileptic spirit and possibly more. Wes: I don't know exactly what I should be looking for. I feel uneasy about making a judgment as to whether someone DOES have a demon. Anyway, the next morning, my wife went to use the internet. She printed out your email that Walt forwarded to me. She didn't mention it; she just left it folded on the desk. I opened it up and read it. I knew immediately that God had given me a second witness, so that I could be SURE. I still have a lot of questions about what to do. I've never been in a position like this. I prayed last night that God would give me the discernment of spirits, but I don't really know what it means. I know that God has brought this girl to us, not only because of her foot, but because of this spirit afflicting her. I have a good friend down here with me who is strong in the faith; he could stand with me. This is strange territory for me. Is all I need to do is command the spirit of epilepsy to leave in the Name of Jesus? David: You need to know that you have authority to do this. Demons know when you have faith. That is the only condition on your part. (Mar.16:15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. (17) And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons… (Luk.10:19) Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall in any wise hurt you. (20) Nevertheless in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. It would be good to make sure she is a Christian and get her to confess her sins. (Jas.5:16) Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working. Wes: Should I expect the demon to say something before it leaves? David: Not necessarily. But if the Holy Spirit moves you to command them to give their name, do it. Wes: What if she just sits there silently? Does it mean my faith isn't great enough? David: They don't always come out immediately. But you don't have to hang around till you see something. Walk by faith. Just know that they have to obey you. Wes: Should I ask how many spirits are in her? David: If you feel so to ask, yes. Wes: How can I believe them if they did tell me? I wouldn't want to leave one in there. David: They will obey you if you command them to tell their name, unless this is a mute spirit. Email #7 (From Wes to David): The spirit of epilepsy has left the girl! A pastor, his church, and I prayed over her. The spirit never responded. But the girl began to thank the Lord and cry. She finally fell down after about five minutes. She was “as dead” like the scripture speaks about the epileptic boy. In the midst of this “sleep,” she started to praise God very loudly and then went back under. It was very strange to me, nothing like I expected. She went to bed shortly after she woke. The next morning she and her mother were talking about the medicine she takes to fight off the epilepsy. Her mother told her, “The devil is tempting us not to believe!” Then they threw the medicine away. She is perfectly fine now. Her face looks different. Her eyes are more alert. These people are such awesome witnesses of faith to me. They cannot even read the Bible. But they understand the Gospel more than educated Christian Americans. Thank you very much for replying to my other email. All the information was very useful. Email #8 (From David to Wes): Praise the Lord! See how simple it is. That poor girl would have suffered the rest of her life if she had not run into someone like you who was willing to stand in faith. Sometimes the demon will try to come back by temporarily putting a symptom on you. When you accept it, he has permission to re-invade. Tell the girl and her mom to never accept it back. They have authority over the demons. Now, just pray and believe for the restoration of her foot. Jesus paid for a complete healing. Awesome! Praise God!! Christians who know their authority can, and should, cast out demons. I was doing it as a baby Christian, and although I didn't know a lot about it, I got some people delivered. (Mar.16:17) And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons… The only condition was to believe. Let me give you an example. Jesus was casting out an unclean spirit from a deaf and dumb man. (Mar.9:17) And one of the multitude answered him, Teacher, I brought unto thee my son, who hath a dumb spirit; (18) and wheresoever it taketh him, it dasheth him down: and he foameth, and grindeth his teeth, and pineth away (This sounds like an epileptic dumb spirit.): and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast it out; and they were not able. Why were they “not able”? (Mar.9:19) And he answereth them and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you? bring him unto me. His rebuke was for their lack of faith. The only condition in the scriptures for casting out demons is faith on the part of the person who is doing the casting out. (Mar.9:20) And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him grievously; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. (21) And he asked his father, How long time is it since this hath come unto him? And he said, From a child. (22) And oft-times it hath cast him both into the fire and into the waters, to destroy him (There is that destruction again.): but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us, and help us. (23) And Jesus said unto him, If thou canst! All things are possible to him that believeth. (Again, the condition is belief.) (24) Straightway the father of the child cried out, and said, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. (Mar.9:25) And when Jesus saw that a multitude came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I command thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. In the case of a child, Jesus said basically, “Come out of him, and do not go back!” You don't see Him doing this with adults. This is because they have their own choices to make, and if they choose to go back into the world, then the demons are going to return. If they fall back into temptation, the demon will come back, but children are not as responsible. The child's father said that the demon entered “from a child,” and so we see that Jesus gave us an example here, saying, “Enter no more into him.” You do not do that with adults. Also, the father wanted help from his unbelief: I.e. “I believe with the faith I have. Deliver me from my unbelief.” (Mar.9:26) And having cried out, and torn him much, he came out: and [the boy] became as one dead; insomuch that the more part said, He is dead. (27) But Jesus took him by the hand, and raised him up; and he arose. Here's another testimony from C.C.   Jesus Delivered Me from Familiar Spirits by C. C. In 2003, I was not a Christian. I was just a man living for himself. I had been a banker in Seattle when I began to hear faint voices in my head as I went to sleep. The voices grew stronger as time went by. There were many of them, different each night. I thought they were the voices of the dead speaking from beyond the grave. After several months, one of these “dead spirits” became more vocal with me. He called himself “David,” saying he was the soul of the brother of one of my best friends, who had died in a car wreck three years previous. This spirit's voice became so clear as to seem present in the room with me. [Note: C.C. had unknowingly become a “medium,” which is someone who is possessed with a spirit guide, a familiar spirit who mimics the dead.] He began telling astral and worldly “secrets” that I found fantastical at the time. He explained many things about the “after-life,” including how I had lived many lives myself and had been reincarnated several times. This spirit explained that he was my “guide,” sent by the “White Lodge” to help me achieve my “final potential.” He explained that he had to help guide my “last life” so I could go to heaven through gates guarded by a group of angels called the “Brethren.” He showed me many images and pictures of these gates. Souls would be permitted to pass through them when they had learned enough compassion through their many lives. He also turned me on to many New Age beliefs. In addition to him, I would speak to other spirits at night while in my bed. They would ask me to do things for them. One such example came from a spirit called “Misty” who wanted me to deliver some flowers to her dying grandmother. The spirit gave me the name and address of the hospital where this elderly lady was located. I went and delivered the roses anonymously to her. I thought I had some special gift to talk with the dead, as I experienced incidents of communication, and received “confirmation” and “insight” from the things these spirits revealed. The voice of the “spirit guide” began to become stronger as time went on. It got to where it was all I could hear. He always seemed to be as close as my throat, speaking from behind my head. It was a very unsettling feeling at the time. This went on for some time, with me learning and trusting all that this spirit “David” revealed to me. There came a night when I awoke in my bed to see a specter cloaked in darkness, black as pitch. He even seemed to suck the darkness into himself. I was terrified! Frozen in my bed as I stared at it, I noticed that my breath was visible in front of me, as if it were a winter night. The specter seemed to want to kill me. When I thought it would move to harm me, the presence of my “spirit guide” entered the room and scared it away. I could sense that it was afraid of him. He explained to me that it was a lost soul who sought me because of my gifts. He said that I was like a “light in the darkness” that all such spirits could see and would gravitate towards. The same thing happened the following night and onward for six nights. Each night, one more spirit came until, by the sixth evening, there were six of them at the foot of my bed. I could not have been more terrified, as they would all point at me with horrible, black, lifeless faces, seeming to want my death. By morning I was exhausted from the fear, hyper-vigilance, and lack of sleep for six full days. Upon waking, I heard the spirit “David's” voice, rushed and louder than ever. He said, “Hurry up and get dressed. You have to get downtown toward your work now, as fast as possible. Hurry up! Do it now!” I asked, “Is someone in danger?” He replied, “Yes. Hurry now!” Startled, I got dressed and drove downtown to see what was happening. While I was driving he kept saying, “Hurry, hurry!” When I got there, nothing was happening; it was just a normal day. Surprised to see nothing wrong, I asked him why he told me to rush. He replied, “I just wanted to see if you would obey me. I was testing you.” All day, I ignored him while I worked, as I was very angry. I was continually disturbed by his words, “obey me.” When the day was done, I went home, ignoring “David” the whole way, and wanting very much to understand. A friend once had told me the Bible discussed spirits and the dead; I decided to look it up on my computer. As I sat down to search the internet, I looked out over Puget Sound from my windows and could see nothing but blackness. The clouds had covered everything in such a dark, ominous way. It was unlike anything I had ever seen, especially so early in the evening. As I started to find Bible passages, the spirit's voice said accusingly, “What are you doing?” Agitated, I replied, “Nothing. Don't worry about it.” I came upon (Deu.18:10-13) There shall not be found in you one who passes his son or his daughter through the fire, one that uses divination, an observer of clouds, or one divining, or a whisperer of spells, or a magic charmer, or one consulting mediums [Hebrew for “consulter with a familiar spirit.”], or a spirit-knower, or one inquiring of the dead. For all doing these things are an abomination to the Lord. And because of these filthy acts the Lord your God is dispossessing these nations before you. You shall be perfect with the Lord your God. As I finished reading the words, I heard “David,” with a tone of deep aggression, say, “Don't read that!” Startled, I turned to see that he was now visible on my right. He looked just like one of the dark specters that had previously gathered around my bed. The room instantly grew cold. I was terrified, but replied, “I can read it if I want to!” He lunged for my throat with his dark, outstretched hand, taking a swipe at me. I fell sideways out of my chair and thought I was going to die, right there, in that dark room as he came upon me! I was on my knees. I called, “Lord, please save me!” A hole to the heavens opened up through my roof. I saw a flaming Sword coming down from heaven at me like lightning. It flew straight down and entered through the top of my head and traveled through my body, and pierced into the ground through me. A blast wave that was like a spiritual nuclear bomb went off from the fiery Sword within me, traveling like light through my entire place, destroying the spirit “David” as it flashed out from me. I sat there on my knees as the light went out from within me and the Sword left me. I then immediately saw a large bright light outside on my patio. As I squinted at it, I realized what I was seeing. In my mind, I heard the name “Michael.” He was holding the sword that had just been in my body. I was amazed and afraid! He was huge, bearing armor as bright as the sun, with many colors coming through it, shining brightly. He was looking at me through the large windows. I jumped up to my feet to run outside and see him. But as I opened the door, the light was gone. No one was there. I went to the spot where I had seen him standing, half expecting to see the ground melted away. I dropped to my knees to feel the ground as I thought it would be hot for some reason. When I looked up, the blackness of the clouds had given way to the setting sun. It seemed to not only pierce through the clouds, but to push them out of the way, making what seemed night turn into day! I stood there, utterly emotionally exhausted and physically tired from not sleeping for a week. I awoke the next morning on the seventh day of the ordeal. I had slept as soundly as a baby, without a single interruption or dark visit. I felt so good that morning. I can still remember how good it was—I felt like a million bucks! I got dressed and was thinking about everything that had happened to me and what it all meant. I no longer heard any voices. For the first time in a long time, I felt like I was in my “right” mind. I got into my truck and headed to work, feeling wonderful. As I came to the apex of a large bridge, I closed my eyes for a second. When I opened them, I was no longer in my truck! [Note: There was something spiritually that kept his truck humming along during this experience.] To my utter confusion, I was standing on a dirt road. My first reaction was to put my hands on myself to see if I was okay. As I looked down, I had all of my clothes on and was still wearing my boots. Bewildered, I saw a dirt road stretched out for as far as the eye could see. To the right and left, fields of golden wheat, ready for harvest, were moving back and forth as a warm wind blew over them. The sun was setting. It was casting the most beautiful rays of light through the waving grains of wheat. The soft color was unlike anything I had ever seen on earth. It was beautiful. My thoughts went back to myself. Where in the heck was I? I turned around to look behind me. I saw darkness. As I was trying to look into where the road behind me went, I felt a presence… I cannot even begin to explain in words … I turned around to see a man standing in the road before me. He was dressed in white. His clothes were of olden times and spotless. He had long, golden brown hair and a beard. As I looked at him, I realized Who He was. I could tell that He could see all of the things I had ever done wrong in my life—everything… As He looked at me, He put before me images of all of the wrongs I had done. Seeing them, I felt so heavy that I fell to the ground, my face falling into the dirt. I began to beg aloud, “Lord, please do not let me be before you. Please let me go. I am not worthy. Please let me go from before you, Lord.” It was so painful that He could see all of my sins. Feeling crushed onto the ground, my breath and tears mixed with the dirt of the road. As I tried to push away from Him, I looked up through my tears to see His perfect sandal in front of my face. I reached out and placed my hand upon His foot and said, “Lord, please forgive me. I am so sorry for what I have done against you…” Then I felt His hand on my shoulder, lifting me up off the ground and setting me onto my feet. He took His hand and reached before me, touching my chest, seeming to reach inside of me! He pulled out a black shining orb, which was spinning within His hand. I looked up from the orb into His face. He smiled at me and looked back down at the thing spinning in His hand. He then closed his hand around it and crushed it. When He opened His hand again, the orb had become like dirt that was on the road. He turned His hand, and the dirt fell back onto the road. At that moment, I felt SO FREE! All that had crushed me and held me down in life had been taken away forever! I looked into His eyes and saw them clearly for the first time. Amazingly beautiful, they were the same color as the light that I had seen shining through the shafts of wheat. As I looked, I felt (words could never portray): the love of my friends, the love of my brothers, the love of my mother, the love of God! I was so overcome with thanksgiving, I threw my arms around Him. His frame was as powerful as a rock, but gentle as a lamb. Then I held myself apart from Him. Looking into His smiling face, I said the most embarrassing thing that I have ever said in all my life! Looking at the long road, I said, “Lord, do you think we could stay here and play soccer together?” He laughed and, as I looked up from the road, turned and walked a few paces from me; I could see His perfect footprints in the dirt. I felt frozen, not knowing what to do. As if sensing that I felt paralyzed, He looked back, smiled and extended His hand, and motioned for me to follow Him. Even though He did not say the words, I could clearly hear the words “Follow me” in my mind. Looking down, I took my first foot and put it perfectly into His footprint. As I was about to take the next step, I closed my eyes for a second before trying to look back up at Him. And poof! Just like that—I was back in my truck, driving on my way to work. As I sat there, I cried, heaving deeply for the gift that He had just given me. I was so entirely undone. There was no greater happiness that I had ever known in my entire life. Then, the radio played a song called “Dead Man's Rope,” sung by Sting, recorded on the album called “Sacred Love.” I shall never forget listening to this song through my tears, barely being able to drive. The song speaks of how we try to walk away from our trials, not understanding that our trials will lead us to walk toward Jesus and His forgiveness. After this song ended, it began to rain heavily upon my truck just as the song describes… My life has never been the same since. Wow! Praise the Lord!

Topics: (00:00:00) - Intro (00:04:19) - Entering the VC space (00:08:38) - Pilot-fund theories (00:12:50) - Risk tracking (00:19:56) - Finding LP alignment (00:22:39) - Arkady's fund thesis (00:47:12) - Creating the index of solutions to problems (00:57:18) - The TAM for VC in 2025 (01:00:29) - How founders can increase the odds of being funded by Arkady (01:03:36) - False signals in VC Links: Arkady on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/arkady-kulik/ Arkady on X - https://x.com/arkady_kulik Rpv.global - https://rpv.global/ To support the costs of producing this podcast:  >> Buy a copy of the Navalmanack: www.navalmanack.com/  >> Buy a copy of The Anthology of Balaji: https://balajianthology.com/ >> Sign up for my online course and community about building your Personal Leverage: https://www.ejorgenson.com/leverage  >> Invest in early-stage companies alongside Eric and his partners at Rolling Fun: https://angel.co/v/back/rolling-fun >> Join the free weekly email list at ejorgenson.com/newsletter >> Text the podcast to a friend >> Or at least give the podcast a positive review to help us reach new listeners! We discuss: How speaking the language of scientists helps Arkady build real trust with founders. The AI tournament model he uses to identify 300 hidden human needs. Focusing on problems first, then funding an index of possible solutions. What he looks for in both founders and LPs. Why honesty beats hype every time. Why DPI is the only VC metric that actually matters. Quotes from David: “You don't prove your worth as a VC until you return capital to your LPs. DPI is the only metric that matters.” “The VC game is full of false positives—in evaluating companies and in how LPs evaluate VCs.” “The best thing an investor can do is give a quick yes; the next best is a quick no. Lingering maybes are the worst.” “Our technical unlock was agentic AI—it lets us evaluate hundreds of emerging needs for humanity in days, not years.” “We want to be the first check because what matters most is building deep trust with the founder, not just valuation.” “If you sold LPs on a strategy and you quietly abandon it, that's a breach of trust—it's like cheating in a marriage.” “A lot of people go into VC for ego or fast money. They won't survive. This is a long, emotionally volatile game.” “Stop wasting your life and start making a difference. If you're a founder, build what only you can build.” “There's nothing wrong with saying no—it's how you say it that matters.” “The founder's mistake is assuming your investors will make money just because you do.” “Great founders don't oversell—they're clear, calm, and self-aware.” Important Quotes from the podcast on Business and Entrepreneurship   There is no skill called “business.” Avoid business magazines and business classes. - Naval Ravikant   You have to work up to the point where you can own equity in a business. You could own equity as a small shareholder where you bought stock. You could also own it as an owner where you started the company. Ownership is really important.     Everybody who really makes money at some point owns a piece of a product, a business, or some IP. That can be through stock options if you work at a tech company. That's a fine way to start. 

Topics: (00:00:00) - Intro (00:03:52) - The Founder's book project (00:04:06) - Effort and building relationships (00:11:20) - The value of self-publishing (00:24:00) - Bootstrapping a HoldCo (00:46:05) - Finding natural fit in business (00:47:48) - The role of trust in business (00:49:07) - AI and changing perspectives (00:50:26) - Daily use of AI tools (00:55:49) - The value of deep research (00:57:53) - The future of AI in business (01:16:35) - Avoiding addictive apps (01:18:27) - Collecting and using maxims (01:20:45) - The power of lists (01:24:40) - Collapsing organizational gaps (01:28:05) - The role of AI in reducing friction (01:29:59) - Closing remarks and recommendations Links: Andrew Wilkinson — https://twitter.com/awilkinsonDavid Senra — https://twitter.com/founderspodcastEric Jorgenson — https://twitter.com/ericjorgensonMitchell Baldridge — https://twitter.com/baldridgecpaNick Huber — https://twitter.com/sweatystartup Eric Jorgenson — https://ejorgenson.com Founders Podcast — https://www.founderspodcast.com Better Bookkeeping — https://www.betterbookkeeping.comRE Cost Seg — https://www.recostseg.comScribe — https://scribemedia.com To support the costs of producing this podcast:  >> Buy a copy of the Navalmanack: www.navalmanack.com/  >> Buy a copy of The Anthology of Balaji: https://balajianthology.com/ >> Sign up for my online course and community about building your Personal Leverage: https://www.ejorgenson.com/leverage  >> Invest in early-stage companies alongside Eric and his partners at Rolling Fun: https://angel.co/v/back/rolling-fun >> Join the free weekly email list at ejorgenson.com/newsletter >> Text the podcast to a friend >> Or at least give the podcast a positive review to help us reach new listeners! We discuss: How extreme effort and agency created the opportunity to publish the Founders' book. The economics, longevity, and cultural value of self-published books. Bootstrapping and scaling a HoldCo with multiple service businesses. Practical uses of AI for research, productivity, and creative leverage. The importance of doing the work for its own sake and loving the process. Quotes from David: “You don't handle the stress—you like it. Or else you wouldn't be doing this.” “If you want the ups, you have to endure the downs. That's just a fact.” “This is the best version of my life, whether it's 300 people at a club or 3,000 in a theater.” “Most people try to keep things even—no extreme highs or lows. But all the exciting shit is in the variance.” “If you have something else you'd rather be doing, then you should go do that.” “Books are so valuable because of how long they take to consume.” “Effort is universal. Doesn't matter if it's a garden or a podcast—people respect work.” “AI is going to wipe out the middle. If you're average, you're gone.” “Sage remembers things I don't—and that's priceless.” “Don't rush it. Make something great. A good book can sell for 50 years.” Quotes from Mitchell: “I get frustrated at how long this takes—but I want to build something meaningful.” “Turn everything into a car wash. Put the customer into neutral and pull them through.” “The tax code is getting more complex, but the systems are getting better.” “AI is going to destroy everything below the 95th percentile.” “I'm bootstrapping a holdco—and it takes time.” “Send me a customer, I'll give you $1,000. Send me 1,000 and I'll mortgage my house for you.” “I don't want 25 meetings a month—I want results.”

Is America over, or is the best yet to come? AI-generated "sextortion" pics drove boy to suicide? Chinese paraglider sucked 5-miles up! Moon landing "denied"!The Hake Report, Monday, June 2, 2025 ADTIMESTAMPS* (0:00:00) Rough Start - "I believe in The Hake Report"* (0:05:42) Hey, guys! Obvious Globe* (0:07:40) DAVID, Ocala, FL: Disagree on Sean Grayson* (0:11:53) DAVID: Be careful talking about Paul in the Bible* (0:16:33) DAVID: Love waxing cold; USA's over; Moon; 9/11* (0:24:11) DAVID: You should go out with Pearl* (0:25:51) ALLEN, MI: Anti-Paul stuff; NT, OT* (0:28:35) ALLEN: Moon landing denied, ascending to heaven* (0:35:26) ALLEN: 250-year empire, Hammurabi's Code, "usury"* (0:40:24) Supers / Coffees … Trump "Pepe"?* (0:49:42) News…* (0:51:35) Boeing* (0:53:52) AI-generated suicide* (1:03:18) PRINCE, TX, 1st* (1:08:22) HADEN, TX: Country music; Attack on men vs whites?* (1:19:21) HADEN: The best is yet to come* (1:22:52) Super / Coffee: Trump…* (1:26:28) Paraglider in China sucked 5 miles up!* (1:32:09) MARK, L.A.: Story tips* (1:35:08) MARK: Popcorn: Policy; 1964, "N-word"* (1:39:31) WILLIAM, CA… History, Worst Presidents, Don't be fooled* (1:45:28) WILLIAM: Maxine, Elon news… Answer yes or no! Rich people* (1:50:33) ROB, NorCal: FE beyond the horizon …* (1:54:17) ClosingLINKSBLOG https://www.thehakereport.com/blog/2025/6/2/the-hake-report-mon-6-2-25PODCAST / Substack HAKE NEWS from JLP https://www.thehakereport.com/jlp-news/2025/6/2/jlp-mon-6-2-25Hake is live M-F 9-11a PT (11-1CT/12-2ET) Call-in 1-888-775-3773 https://www.thehakereport.com/showVIDEO YT - Rumble* - Pilled - FB - X - BitChute (Live) - Odysee*PODCAST Substack - Apple - Spotify - Castbox - Podcast Addict*SUPER CHAT on platforms* above or BuyMeACoffee, etc.SHOP - Printify (new!) - Cameo | All My LinksJLP Network: JLP - Church - TFS - Nick - Joel - Punchie Get full access to HAKE at thehakereport.substack.com/subscribe

I've been having conversations over the past couple of weeks about this very topic of creating certainty in uncertain times. So much of it boils down to the specific steps I can put in place in my business. Reach out to the right people, say the right things, in the right order, consistently. That will not only improve your confidence in yourself. It will improve their confidence in you and their certainty that you can do the job for them. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist, and I will be discussing creating certainty in uncertain times. Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Great to see you again, David. Wow, uncertain times. There's an understatement of the year, huh? David: Yeah. There's been so much discussion on the forums and inside the social media groups and everything like that. A lot of people are uncertain about a lot of things, and that does not generally bode well for businesses. Kevin: No, no, it definitely doesn't. So what does it really mean to create certainty? When everything around you feels unstable. David: Yeah. We had talked in a previous podcast about our circles of influence. Like the things we can control and the things we can't. It really does circle back in a lot of ways to this. When we talk about creating certainty, we can only ever do that within the realms that we control. We can create certainty in specific aspects of our business. So when we're talking about things like tariffs, which obviously is a big topic these days, a lot of our clients are in the promotional products industry, and a lot of that product tends to come from overseas. Much of it is coming from China. So in those situations, we're not able to create certainty with that, right? That's not within our sphere of influence. So what we can do and what our clients can do is to look at the specific things we can create certainty around. Can we identify suppliers who are can provide products for us that are not impacted by that? Can we look at more domestic suppliers? What are the specific things we can do to create a level of certainty for our customers? Something our competitors might not be able to provide? Kevin: And I think there's a level of authenticity too that has to go with it, right? Because certainty you can sort of project certainty. but you don't want to pretend to have all the answers when you don't. So how do you balance that? David: Yeah, you can't really fake certain, well, I guess you can fake certainty. Kevin: You can try. Yeah, David: You can pretend you're certain, but I'm not really talking about that. I think there's certainly an air of confidence that you want to be able to convey to your clients, and sometimes when you're conveying confidence, you may still not be certain about things. But in this conversation, I'd like to look at, okay, what are the things that we can do? What can we be certain of? You know, are we certain that we can help our clients? And if so, how are we certain that we can help our clients? What are the things that we know that we can do that will help them? And if it's about sourcing things that are more in line with exactly what they're looking for, trying to get around the obstacles for our clients. If we're certain we can do those types of things. Just identifying the very specific steps that we can take, what can we be certain about, and then focus on those things. Kevin: You mentioned that, a lot of our listeners are in the promotional product space. There's still a lot of uncertainty that's coming our way. A lot of flipping and flopping going on with tariffs and whatnot. What do you recommend businesses do to sort of like help prep? David: Well, first thing you should do is recognize that your clients are not unaware of this. Like they are aware of the fact that this stuff's going on. Kevin: Right. David: And I've talked to a lot of business owners recently who are just really conc...

Anytime there is any sort of issue in your business that's not quite going the way it should, don't sabotage your sales success. Instead, just ask yourself, is this because the process that I have in place is not working? Or is it because the person who is supposed to be following the process just didn't do it? David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist and will be discussing How Businesses Sabotage their Sales. Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Good to see you, David. How you been? David: Been doing great. It's good to see you too. Kevin: Yeah, for sure. I'm excited to talk about this. So, sabotaging sales, what do you mean by that, when you say businesses are sabotaging their sales? David: You know, I had some experiences recently and I'm like, did they intend to do this? Is this what they were trying to do? Did they set out to do this when they were doing it. One of the experiences I had recently was I was going to buy a pair of earbuds, right? And there's a particular brand of earbuds that I like. It's not the ones that would normally leap to mind. It's another one. But a good brand, they work really well. And I got a text from them saying that they were having a sale. And I was like, okay, cool. Maybe I'll buy an extra pair of earbuds even though I don't need them. And so in the link that they sent me, they said, click through and you get 35% off. I'm like, cool. So I click through the link and it takes me to a picture of what I think are the earbuds that they're selling, and it says 20% off, with a certain promo code. And I'm like, okay, well I'm looking for the 35% off, but there was a different promo code in the text, so I'm like, okay, I'll just plug the correct promo code and it'll work. Right? So finally figured out how to do that. No, it said this is not applicable to this particular product. So I'm like, okay. But they had some sort of chat person or chat being or chat AI, I don't know what it was. Kevin: Chat AI agent. Yeah. David: Yeah. Something not quite what I thought it might be, but. I thought, okay, well I'll ask the question. And none of the answers that I got were relevant to what I was asking. And I was like, I'm here. I've got my wallet open. Kevin: I'm ready to buy! David: I want to buy exactly the thing that you sent me a text to, and you're making it hard. Why are you making it so hard? Kevin: Yeah. David: And it replied quickly to a lot of questions and then, it was just like ghosting. It's like, okay, I didn't hear anything back. So I'm like, I'm like, are you AI? And I didn't get an answer. I thought if it was AI, it would at least tell me it was AI. So, I didn't get to order that day. The next day I tried again. I actually reached out to their customer support, had another non-experience there. But eventually I was able to figure out that apparently there were two sets of this earbud in a similar color, and the link took you to the wrong one and applied the wrong link. And so that's why it was saying it was wrong. And I didn't care about the color. I was like, I wouldn't have normally bought this color, but it was 35% off, so I was like... Kevin: Yeah, yeah, whatever. David: Right. Kevin: Earbuds. David: Anyway, long story short is what should have taken three to five minutes and been an exceptional experience took a whole lot longer and diminished my passion for this particular product. So I thought, you know, there are a lot of businesses that do this sort of thing, and the words that leap to my mind is that they're sabotaging their own sales, which is kind of the purpose of this conversation. Not for me to vent, but for us to talk about what businesses can do about it. Kevin: Well, I'm glad you got that off your chest, David. David: Thanks. Kevin: It's probably something you needed to do. David: I feel a lot better. Kevin: Good, good, good. Well,

As the property management industry continues to evolve, it's important to stay up to date on the latest innovations in technology. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with David Normand from Vendoroo to talk about AI's role in the future of property management. You'll Learn [01:29] The AI Revolution [08:47] The Importance of Empathy and Human Touch [22:21] Decreasing the Cost of Maintenance Coordination [32:29] New Features Coming to Vendoroo Quotables “As any property manager believes, we know how to do it the best.” “If you're not reading articles and studying up on this, I think that's going to catch you by surprise pretty quickly.” “Empathy is the magic lubrication that makes everything better.” “Empathetic reflection and empathy is a magical ingredient.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] David: If you're not building AI tools from working with your partners, from being on the ground floor with them and using the data and building tools based upon the data and their pain points and their failures, buyer beware. If somebody's coming to you and saying, Hey, we figured this all out in the lab. [00:00:14] David: Come use it. Yeah. Right. Buyer beware. [00:00:18] Jason: All right. Welcome property management entrepreneurs to the DoorGrow Show or the Property Management Growth podcast. I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive group coaching mastermind for residential property management entrepreneurs. We've been doing this for over a decade and a half. [00:00:39] Jason: I've brought innovative strategies and optimizations to the property management industry. I have spoken to thousands of property management companies. I've coached over 600 businesses. I've rebranded over 300 companies like Bar Rescue for property managers, cleaning up their businesses, and we would love to help coach you and support you and your growth. [00:01:01] Jason: We have innovative strategies for building out growth engines, for building out your operational challenges, for helping you figure out how to get to the next level in your business and one of the cool tools that I'm excited to showcase today with my guest here, David Norman, is Vendoroo. We've had you on the show before. [00:01:19] Jason: Welcome back David.  [00:01:20] David: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It felt like years ago, it was only about, I think eight months ago since we did this, so much has changed over the time, so it's great to be back. Yeah, it's great to be back.  [00:01:29] Jason: Good to have you. I know you're in the middle of this AI revolution, which AI is just innovating and changing so rapidly. It probably does feel like years ago, so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's been crazy. You guys have made a lot of changes too, so, you even changed your brand name from the last time we had you on the show. Yeah. Which was I think Tulu. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah. So why don't you get us caught up on what's going on 'cause, you know, there's been a lot.  [00:01:55] David: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you first of all for having me here today, Jason, and from the entire Vendoroo group of us, which, you know, the team has grown 10 x over the past eight months, which has been awesome. And I just also wanted to start in thanking everybody from what we call our client partners who have jumped in into this great unknown that is AI and is going to be like, how is this going to work in our industry? And so that's really what we've been focusing on the past eight months. You know, it's been a unbelievable journey of both failures, successes learnings and insights. And ultimately we're getting excited here at the NARPM broker owner which is in Denver to unveil Vendoroo. Like this is the coming out party. And so we're super excited if you're going to be there. We have a massive booth that we have set up that we have the ai alliance with other people that are working in the AI space, and I really hope that you guys come over and check it out. I promise this. [00:02:53] David: You'll never see a booth or a display like we have set up. At the NARPM broker owner. So.  [00:02:58] Jason: Now I want to go attend it. Yeah. Just so I can see your booth.  [00:03:01] David: So, let me put it this way. You may see the robot from the Jetsons walking around the booth walking around the NARPM broker owner, so, okay. [00:03:07] David: Yeah. Rosie? Yeah. You may see something like that. So she'll be vacuuming with her apron? Yeah. She'll be doing a little social engagement. It'll be cool. So, okay. Okay.  [00:03:17] Jason: Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, so catch us up on what, like, let's get into the kind of the background and the overview for people that have never heard about Vendoroo and what you guys do and how you got into this. [00:03:29] Jason: Yeah. Give people kind of the backstory. Yeah.  [00:03:31] David: Yeah. Thank you for that. So really the backstory is that, you know, we know of this AI economy that's coming, right? And there was a few of us, you know, I've been in this industry for 18 years. You know, I've managed you know, portfolios of 40,000 doors. [00:03:47] David: I've managed them for governments. You know, I started off with our own property management. Much like you guys. We started off with 80 doors. We grew to 550 doors in four years. So it was exciting to know that technology that was coming that promised duplication because, you know, as any property manager believes, we know how to do it the best, right. [00:04:05] David: And so what we decided to do is to come together and say, Hey, if AI's coming, there's two things that we need to figure out. Number one is how is this going to help us show value in this new industry to this new generation of property owners that is here, that is coming, that has been raised in the technology world too, right? [00:04:25] David: And two, can it actually duplicate our efforts? Can it actually be an employee for us? Right? And I don't care what people are promising about ai, you don't know until you get into what we call like, you know, get into the weeds, you got to get into the trenches. And so that's what we did, right? We went out and we were the guys that grabbed the torch and we said, we are going to take all the risk. [00:04:46] David: We are going to jump into the mix. We're going to ask people to jump onto the bandwagon with us and we're going to figure this out. And oh my gosh, what an unbelievable eight months it has been in learning and insights. And I can't wait to get into all the things that we've learned about the property management industry. [00:05:01] David: But that's really what we've been focusing on here the past eight months, right? So we started off with well hey, can the AI assist the va? Can it turn them into a super va? Is that what it's going to be? And, you know, some people were like, yay. And some people were like nay, you know? And so, and you know, because that human failure still was there, right? [00:05:21] David: And you know, what happens if they left? There was that inconsistency. And then it was like, all right, well what can the AI own? Right? What can it do? What can it perfect? And you know, can AI actually be the last employee that I ever hire? Right. That's really, that's a really cool thing to do. [00:05:39] David: But the property managing community had some really specific demands that they said that if this is going to be the last employee that I've had, it has to do this. And that's what I'm excited about our new technology 'cause it's doing those things. You know? [00:05:52] Jason: Yeah. And now you guys have made some big moves. I know, like I've, I have clients that we've sent over to you and they've shared some incredible stories. Like one client, I think he had 154 units or something like under management, and he said in the first day you're of turning on Vendoroo, like it closed out like 80 something work orders. [00:06:12] Jason: Yeah, like, it was crazy. Another client, they had a little more doors. They said it was like 50 something work orders were closed out in the first day of turning it on. And so, I mean, you're creating some dramatic stuff. Like this is a very different thing than what people are used to in maintenance. [00:06:27] David: Yeah. Yeah. And really what the exciting part about this, Jason, is that maintenance is actually really easy. And I know people laugh when I say that it's managing communications that is extremely difficult. Okay. Okay. Right, because you have, you know what AI told us about our industry over the last eight months is when we dove in with it and it took a step back and it said, whoa, you guys don't have a data problem here. [00:06:51] David: You guys have a emotion problem here. There's very specific categories of emotion that are in this space, right? Like, how do you build a technology that senses something? And I know this relates with property managers, 'cause I know this for myself. A property manager can walk into their office, sit down at their desk, and their spidey senses go off and they know something's wrong. [00:07:15] David: There's no screen that's telling them anything. There's no spreadsheet. They know something's off. Right. And so the AI is like, well, the statuses really don't matter that much to me based upon the feedback that I'm seeing from the property managers. Because the status and the communication all seem to be in order, but there's a disruption somewhere. [00:07:35] David: So I need to know about people's emotions. I need to understand about is the resident happy? Does the owner feel supported? Is the vendor being directed? And does the property manager believe that I can own the outcome for this? And it was really cool to start seeing its learning and understanding and picking up on these cues where, you know, people say that this is a data-driven industry. [00:07:55] David: It's really in an emotion driven industry.  [00:07:57] Jason: Oh yeah. It's a relationship and emotion industry for sure. Yeah. Yeah, big time.  [00:08:01] David: And it's really cool to see, and it's really started happening over this past last 60 days, the amount of residents, I was actually just looking at one before I jumped on here, that are like thanking the system, right? [00:08:15] David: Imagine that, like think of all of us that actually worked with the chat bot at like Verizon. I've never thanked that chatbot at Verizon for being their customer service. Right.  [00:08:25] Jason: And how do I get a representative? Representative. Representative!  [00:08:28] David: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Versus you seeing people, you know, seeing individuals saying to the, you know, saying to the Vendoroo maintenance coordinator, Hey, I really appreciate feeling supported and how fast you acted because you know, there's empathy that's inside of its law and learning. So I don't want to get too much into the details on there. But yeah, these are some of the exciting things that we're working on.  [00:08:47] Jason: I mean, empathy is the magic lubrication that makes everything better. [00:08:52] David: Yeah,  [00:08:52] Jason: I mean they, they've done studies. Teams, even in working in warehouses, are more productive if the team has a higher level of empathy. Yeah. And doctors perform better. Yeah. If there's a higher level of empathy, there's less malpractice suits, like empathetic reflection and empathy is a magical ingredient. [00:09:10] Jason: I coach clients to add that in during sales. Yeah. 'cause their close rate goes up dramatically. Yeah. Right. So yeah. So leveraging and like getting the AI to actually be empathetic in its communication. Yeah. When that's probably not a natural skill for a lot of maintenance coordinators to be empathetic. [00:09:26] David: It's not, it's not a natural skill for a lot of people in the maintenance industry. Right? Yes. Especially when you talk about burnout. People begin developing views of the rental community, right? Like, oh my gosh, they're calling again, and that empathy meter goes lower and lower and lower. [00:09:41] David: Yeah. As people have been in the industry longer. But isn't it great that you have an employee now that knows that, yeah, it's my duty, rain or shine, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 a year to always operate at the highest level of empathy? I never have a bad day. I never take a day off. [00:09:57] David: I'm never upset. I'm never short with somebody on the phone, never tired, never like, oh my gosh, Susan is calling me again. I'm going to let the phone just ring because I'm annoyed of talking to her. And it just is constantly hitting that same level of standard. And this is what's exciting to me, is that there are people that that have played around with this and have been a part of what I call the pain phase, right? [00:10:20] David: The pain phase is that understanding the way that agentic AI works, right? It's input in output. Input, output, right? The more that you're putting into it, the better the results are that you're going to get out of it, okay? Right. It's just like training an employee. So over the last eight months, what we've seen is that the community has trained this to be the level of a person that has now been working in the industry for five years. [00:10:46] David: In eight months. It's got five years of learning in eight months. Okay. Wow. In the next six to 12 months, we're probably looking at somebody that has 10 to 15 years understanding in the next six to 12 months and understand the level of type of tasks that it can do, especially getting into estimates and getting some other work. [00:11:04] David: And again, just you know, having empathy in my own life towards the people that jumped in that are like, what is this all about? Like, how does AI fail? Like, you know, there's still people that are involved and it was like this big like momentous train of like, you know, all these people were jumping on and giving ideas and people are in the loop and now it's weeding everything out and the AI stepping in and saying. [00:11:27] David: Hey, I appreciate all the input that you've given me. Thank you for all your effort. I'm now ready to step up to the plate and to own the outcome. Right. And that's what we're seeing at the NARPM show that's coming out. There's five AI tools. There's a master agent, five AI tools. And you know, I'll give you a couple of pieces here that, you know, we had feedback from our property managers like number one across the board. [00:11:50] David: A property manager said, if I'm hiring AI as my last employee, that has to work in my system. Yeah. Okay. Right. Like I don't want another, I don't want another technology. Yeah.  [00:11:59] Jason: I don't want a new system I got to get every vendor to use or a new system I got to get my team to use or figure out. We don't need another tool to make our lives more difficult. [00:12:08] Jason: No. They've got to use our stuff.  [00:12:09] David: They got to use, we have our existing stack. Yeah. So now the AI is fully integrated into all the most common PMS systems. You know, you have a cool chrome extension that you can download and there's a little yellow kangaroo right right there. And it's actually reading the work order that you're working on, and you can literally just ask it a question now and just being like, Hey, did anybody express frustration or concern on this work order? [00:12:32] David: Right? Because that's the emotion behind the status that you need to know. And it's like, yeah, two days ago Sally said that, you know, she was actually really frustrated about the multiple reschedules by this vendor. And it's like, great, that's a person I should be reaching out to and that's what I should be knowing that a status is never going to tell you. [00:12:47] David: Right? Yeah. It's in your slack, right? So if I have, if I'm on my phone, I'm talking to my employee and I'm laying in bed and I have a panic attack as a property manager, and I'm like, oh my gosh, did we take care of John's refrigerator and the office is closed? I can't get ahold of my employee. Yeah, you can. [00:13:03] David: Your employee works 24 7 now. Hey, can you give me an update on the refrigerator replacement at John's place? Yeah, it was scheduled this day. I contacted John. Everything's good to go. You know, go to sleep. You know, like, like that's the power. Full audit. Full syncing. So it's in your platform. That's really cool. [00:13:21] David: The other thing, it's got to be branded, right? This is a thing that we really learned about, like how important branding is to the community of property managers, right? Yeah. So the communications that go out have to be from your area code that's done. The emails that go out have to have like, you know, your company name and your logo on it. [00:13:39] David: The AI is doing that as well too. So that's being sent out, which is really cool. So people are feeling like, you know, that loyalty to brand is super important. And also do you know now that the AI can ask the residents to give a Google Review and we can link to the Google reviews and give you instant Google reviews to your page through the ai, which is cool, like how it's, it will know that if the success of a Google review is high on the way that the work order was done, that it's probably best to ask this person and it will send them a little thing. [00:14:11] David: Hey, can we get a feedback from you? And we link up to your Google review. And it posts that Google review to generate those 'cause we know those are super, super valuable to property managers. So that's actually going out today. That's kind of a little teaser there. That's the emails out now. [00:14:23] Jason: Nice. We'll have to get you to also connect it to our gather kudos links for clients 'cause then people can pick which review sites. So it diversifies the review profile.  [00:14:32] David: Love it. Love that. I'm going to hook you up with our guy Dotan. He's running that. He's one of our head of product. He's, actually out of Israel. [00:14:39] David: He's a amazing guy. I'd love to get you connected with him. Yeah. Cool. Let's do it. Cool. And then the biggest one too is like, I need a single point of contact. Right. And we knew that before there was a lot of people were still involved. There was a lot of oversight that was going on there, having that confusion and single point of contact. [00:14:56] David: Now it's in your phone, it's in your Slack, it's in your phone extension. It doesn't matter what's going on. You have one point of contact. It's your employee. You ask the question, get the answer, Jason, you can even ask for a change. You can even say, Hey, I want to change a vendor on a job and you'll see that the vendor gets changed for you in the system. [00:15:17] David: You can even say to your ai, and this is the big one: hey how do you triage this work order? And I want you to do this, or I want you to do that. And you just do it right through Slack or right through your PM chat and it makes the change for you. And now you have custom triage and all property managers have the ability to train their own AI for their company. [00:15:36] David: Think how cool that is. A person with 75 doors now, and the product that's being released has their own AI agent customized for their company, right? Yeah. Like, that's what happened over the last eight months, so you can see my excitement. There's been a lot of hard work in this. [00:15:54] David: Yeah, that's amazing. But this has been all the effort and a huge thank you out to everybody who's tried us, you know, even said that this wasn't for them at that point in time because those learnings went into what's going to make this product the best product in the property management space and is going to help people leverage sales and leverage efficiencies and blow their owners' minds away in ways that, that we have never thought about. [00:16:15] David: Oh yeah.  [00:16:16] Jason: Yeah. So I know like initially when you rolled this out, a lot of people were nervous about AI and you guys had kind of a human layer in between the AI and any communication Yeah, initially. Yeah. And so there was like, they had like a reps and a lot of people associated, oh, I've got this rep. [00:16:33] Jason: Yeah. You know, Steven or whatever is my rep or Pedro and I've got Pedro and like, oh no, what if Pedro leaves? And they were associating with that while the AI is really doing the crux of the work. Right. And so you guys have shifted away from even that now the AI is directly communicating with people. [00:16:52] Jason: Correct? Yeah.  [00:16:53] David: Yeah. So let's talk about that. So, definitely, so in the beginning there was like, we all had like lack of trust. We believed what it was going to do, but it was like we had a ton of people still trying, like, you know, using qualified VAs, training them. Like, you know, like, you know, if it fails, like, you know, you have to have a person stepped in and so let's talk about that. [00:17:12] David: So, you know, it was definitely that human layer. And let's talk about where we're at today. It is very clear to us, and the one thing that separates us from everybody is we still believe that humans are super important in this process. Okay? Yeah. And where humans are very important in this process are going to be when the AI says, Hey, I need you to make a phone call to this person for me, right? [00:17:35] David: Hey, I've reached out to this vendor three times and they haven't responded yet. I need you to give a phone call to see what's going on. Right? Hey, I need you to recruit a vendor for me. I need you to reach out and do a recruitment for the vendor. For me. Hey, this owner is asking questions about this estimate. [00:17:51] David: I need you to give a call for me. So the AI is basically able, on a standard work order, the AI can handle 95% of the workflow, no problem. Work order comes in, gets assigned to the resident. It gets out to the vendor. It's under the NTE not to exceed. It's great. The work gets done, the resident uploads its photos, the AI says to the resident, are you happy? [00:18:14] David: Everyone's good. It closes the work order out. Cool. Right. And then if a human...  [00:18:19] Jason: and how is it communicating with the tenant and with the vendor typically? [00:18:24] David: Yep. So, it's very clear that and this isn't a surprise to anybody. Everybody loves text messages, right? Yeah. I mean, that's just, it's just what it is. [00:18:32] David: You literally, like, people will get a phone call and they won't pick up and the text will come back and like text back. Yeah, text me. What do you need? Yeah. Text me here. But, so here's the things that people don't see behind the scenes that we'll talk about. So the complexity that went into. [00:18:51] David: Mapping out how to allow vendors... so a vendor could have like 20 jobs, right? And we don't want to send him like a code that he has to text for every work order so that it links to the right work order. Like what guy wants to do that? Okay. Like that's not how he works. So we figured out how to allow a vendor through AI just to use his regular phone and text anything about this thing. And it's understanding it and it's mapping it, it's routing it to all those work orders because we knew that in order for this to be the last employee somebody would have to handle, it also means that the vendor has to be happy and the same for the resident. [00:19:30] David: They can just text that they have multiple work orders. It understands what work order it's going to. If it's not quite sure, I would ask them, Hey, is this question about this work order? And they say, yeah. And so there's not like, again, codes and links and things that they have to do. It has to be seamless if they're working with a person. [00:19:46] David: So yeah, text message is massive. Email is second, and then phone is third for sure.  [00:19:51] Jason: Got it. So is your AI system calling people yet or you or telling the property manager to make the phone call?  [00:19:58] David: Yeah. People are okay with. If they're calling in like our new front desk agent, which if a person calls in and they want to get information about a listing or if they want to get information about a work order or something like that, or, you know, they're okay with getting that type of information. [00:20:13] David: Yeah. But they are, it is very clear that they are not okay with AI calling them when they're asking for an update on a work order like that. Like that line in the sand very clear. Yeah. And so we have people on on the team. That are constantly monitoring into ai, giving feedback, hitting improvement. [00:20:31] David: I want everybody to know there is not a work order that is taking place that is not touched by a human at least twice.  [00:20:38] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:39] David: Okay. Right.  [00:20:40] Jason: So there's a little, there's some oversight there. There there's, you're watching this, there are humans involved  [00:20:45] David: And then the ai will when it hits certain fail points, right? [00:20:51] David: It then escalates those things up to what we call the human in the loop, right? So there's an AI assistant, we there's people now that we're training a whole new generation of people that are no longer going to be maintenance coordinators. They're AI assistants now, right? And so when the AI says, Hey, this work order is not going down the path that I think it should go to be successful. [00:21:12] David: I'm escalating this up to a human, and so now as a property manager, not only am I getting this AI agent workflow that's standardizing the empathy and the workflows and all the stuff that we talked about in the communications, I also now get a fractional employee that when the AI says, Hey, I need help, I already have an employee that it can reach out to that can make that phone call or call the vendor. [00:21:36] David: But it's also monitoring the AI for me on top of it. So yes, there is, and that's one of the big thing that separates us apart is that the platform comes with what we call a human in the loop, an expert in the loop and so we're training the first generation of AI assistants in the property management industry. [00:21:55] David: Yep.  [00:21:56] Jason: Got it. So the AI maintenance coordinator. Has human assistance. Yep. Underneath it.  [00:22:02] David: And before it was the other way around where Yeah. The AI was assisting the human right. And now the humans are assisting the ai. That's what's happened in the last...  [00:22:11] Jason: that may be the future of all of our roles. [00:22:12] Jason: So,  [00:22:13] David: If you're not reading articles and studying up on this I think that's going to catch you by surprise pretty quickly. Yeah. Learn how to write prompts. I'll tell everybody right now. Yes.  [00:22:21] Jason: Yeah. Interesting. So, now what about this, you know, there's the uncanny, you know, sort of stage where people get a little bit nervous about AI and what do they call it? The uncanny valley or something like this, or right where it gets, it's so close to human that it becomes creepy. And there's some people that have fear about this, that are concerned. You're going to have a lot of late, you know, adopters that are like resistant. "I'll never do ai." [00:22:49] Jason: What would you say to somebody when you get on a sales call and they're like, well, I'm really nervous about this AI stuff, you know, and they just, they don't get it.  [00:22:57] David: Yeah.  [00:22:58] Jason: I'm sure there's people listening right now. They're like, oh man, AI is going to kill us all and it's going to take over the world and it's going to take our jobs. [00:23:05] Jason: And they think it's evil.  [00:23:06] David: Yeah. Yeah. I, and you know, I really want to hear that fear and I want to like, again, have empathy towards that. 'cause I do understand that fear of change causes people to get... Change in general. Yes. Right. It's like, whoa, I like everything the way it's going to be. Right. And we are historically in one of those phases of like, you know, the industrial revolution, the renaissance, like the automobile from horse. [00:23:34] David: Like, this is what is taking place. This is, this will be written down in history. It's massive change. It's a massive change. Massive. So what I would say to them, and not to, not from a way of fear. But to inspire them is there are a lot of hungry entrepreneurs out there that are embracing this head on. [00:23:57] David: Yeah. That are pushing the boundaries and the limits to be able to bring insights and customer service to their clients at a much higher level. And if you want to compete in this new AI economy. I would definitely encourage you to understand and get in and start investing in yourself now. But understand that investing in AI means having some pain threshold. [00:24:21] David: Like you got to get in, like you, you need to be able to give the feedback. You need to understand that if it falls short, do you have to be able to give it the time and the energy and the reward and the payoff of what I'm seeing for property managers who've embraced that when they're sitting there and they're going, I don't touch maintenance at all anymore. Yeah, it's wild. Right? And those are the people that in the beginning of this relationship, and there's a few that come to my head, are the ones that were sending me emails constantly saying, David, this is failing me. I believe in this, but this is failing me. And as my technology partner, I know that you're going to help us get this better. [00:24:58] David: And there is, you know, I have this word down that struggle equals great con conversation, right? Like, and so they had a struggle and that opened up a great conversation and because of that, their technology and the technology is getting better. So yeah, I think that from a personal point of view in this industry, one thing that I want to solve with AI is I think that we can all say that over the past 15 years, we've probably yelled at a lot of vendors or yelled at a lot of VAs or yelled at a lot of people. Let's start yelling at the ai. And then hopefully that the AI will actually eliminate the need for us to ever have to yell at anybody again because it knows us. [00:25:36] David: Yeah. It never fails us.  [00:25:38] Jason: You know? It really is amazing. I mean, your company is creating freedom for the business owner from being involved in maintenance. Yeah. Really?  [00:25:46] David: Yeah.  [00:25:47] Jason: And it just, and they get used to that pretty quickly. Like maintenance is just running and they're like, yeah. It frees up so much head space for them to focus on growth. [00:25:56] Jason: It gives them a whole bunch of like just greater capacity. Yeah. So they feel like, yeah, we could handle adding any number of doors now and we know we can still fulfill and do a good job.  [00:26:07] David: Yeah. Fixed cost scaling. Right? That's a term that we came up with is now that you know that I have a price per door that will cover all my maintenance. So if I went in and brought on 75 doors, I know that I don't have to go out and hire another employee. The system just grows with it and I know exactly what my margin is for all those doors. Right. And as we know previous, before fixed cost scaling a property managers is like, I have enough people. [00:26:32] David: I don't have enough people. Someone quit, someone didn't quit. My profit margins are good. My profit margins are bad. Yeah. And now with these AI tools. You know, you have your front desk employee, you have your maintenance coordinator, you have these fixed cost scales, and now somebody calls you up and says, Hey, I want you to take on 25 doors, and you're like, I have the resource resources for maintenance, which is, we know is 80% of the workload already. I don't have to go out and hire another maintenance coordinator 'cause the system just grows with me, which is cool.  [00:27:00] Jason: So one of the things you shared at DoorGrow Live and you're our top sponsor for the upcoming... Can't wait for DoorGrow Live, can't wait to, so we're really excited to have you back so. [00:27:10] Jason: Everybody make sure you're at DoorGrow Live if you want. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management. And we're bringing, we're going to be showcasing, innovating pricing structures that are different than how property managers have typically historically priced, that allow you to lower your operational costs and close more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:27:30] Jason: We're, we'll be showcasing a three tier hybrid pricing model that we've innovated here at DoorGrow, and we've got clients using it. It's been a game changer. We're going to be sharing other cool things about the future hiring systems, et cetera. Right. So you guys will also be there showcasing the future. [00:27:46] Jason: One of the things you shared previously that really kind of struck me as you showed, you did some research and you showed the typical cost. Per unit that most companies had just to cover and deal with maintenance. Yeah. And and then what you were able to get it down to.  [00:28:03] David: Yeah.  [00:28:04] Jason: And that alone was just like a bit of a mind blowing. [00:28:07] Jason: Could you just share a little bit of numbers here?  [00:28:09] David: Yeah. So one of the first things that we had to do when we started way back in the day is figure out well. Like, like what's the impact of AI going to be us from like a cost perspective, right? Is it a huge change? And so we went out on a big survey mission and we were surveying property managers and asking them, what's your cost per door for managing maintenance? [00:28:30] David: How much do you spend every door to manage maintenance? Now the first thing is less than 1% of property managers knew what that cost was. Sure.  [00:28:37] Jason: Oh, sure. Right. Because, but then they got to figure out, oh, we got a maintenance coordinator and we've got these people doing phone calls and they cost this, and yeah, it's complicated. [00:28:45] David: It's complicated. So we built a calculator. Okay. And then people could start adding in that information out into the calculator, and the average person was around $13 and 50 cents a door.  [00:28:56] Jason: Okay. Okay.  [00:28:57] David: Wow. Right, right. So that was where the average person was, somewhere in the low twenties. Yeah. [00:29:01] David: And others were actually pretty good. Like, I'd say like, you know, some of the good ones that we saw were maybe around like, you know, 10, $11 a door or something along that line.  [00:29:09] Jason: They probably had a large portfolio would be my guess.  [00:29:12] David: Yeah. And also I think a lot of it's just like, you know, I don't know if they were still accounting for all their software and everything that they had. [00:29:19] David: Maybe they're not factoring everything. Yeah. No, I think if we really dug in, it'd be different. So now we know that, you know, the base package of what people are getting in. The average cost of what people are paying for 24 7 services that's emergencies around the clock is about $7 and 50 cents a door, right? [00:29:37] David: So right off the bat in AI's first swing, it said we cut the cost in half. Yeah. Okay. Right. So 50% reduction. I mean, to me as an owner, a 50% reduction in cost. That's like. You know, alarms and celebration going off, you know? For sure. And then, yeah.  [00:29:55] Jason: And that's, if everything just stayed the same, like it was still the same level of quality, cutting in half would be a solid win right there. [00:30:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:30:03] David: Yeah. That's just like status quo stuff. And now what, with the release of the new Vendoroo product that, that's actually being announced here today. The email's going out to all of our existing clients of all the new features that are coming out now, we're starting to see that. You know that quality is now increasing to where if you were to go out and hire that person, you may have to be spending, you know, 55,000 or $65,000 a year. [00:30:29] David: Right? So now it's like saying, okay, if we can get as good as what these people are using for their VAs right, and we know what that cost is, and they're saying that's, you know, that's what their factors is. Well, what happens in the next six to 12 months when this is a seasoned person that you would've to pay $85,000 a year to? [00:30:45] David: Right. Yeah. And right, because they have knowledge of. Estimates and knowledge of vendor routing and knowledge of, you know, it can handle...  [00:30:53] Jason: you've invested so much time into them, so much attention. They know your properties and know your portfolio. They know the vendors. Like you've invested so much into this person that now they sort of have you by the balls so that they're like, Hey, I want 80 k or I walk.  [00:31:06] David: Yeah.  [00:31:06] Jason: You're like, you've got to come up with it.  [00:31:08] David: Yeah.  [00:31:09] Jason: Right. You've got to do it.  [00:31:10] David: Yeah.  [00:31:10] Jason: And you know, because that's not easy to create. And a lot of people, in order to have a good maintenance coordinator, they need a veteran of the industry. Veteran of industry. [00:31:19] Jason: They need somebody that's been doing this a long time.  [00:31:21] David: Yeah.  [00:31:22] Jason: And that's really hard to find.  [00:31:24] David: Yes. It's extremely hard to find as we know. One of the things that I think that we're doing for this industry is we're actually preserving knowledge that I don't think is necessary getting passed down. [00:31:33] David: Yeah. You know, there's a lot less people that I think are as handy as they once were in the Americas and so we have a lot of that knowledge. Like, you know, we know that the average age of an electrician is in the sixties, the average age of a plumber's in the sixties. And these guys, you know, they have wealth of knowledge that it can troubleshoot anything that's going on in a house. [00:31:54] David: And so to be able to try to preserve some of that, so maybe if a person does come in, you know, maybe there's some knowledge sharing along the lines. But let's take it even in another step forward Jason that in the future, you know, the AI is going to know the location of the hot water tank in that house. [00:32:10] David: It's going to then add it automatically to the system, like. It's going to know more knowledge than they will because it's going to have maps of every single property that's all currently sitting inside of, you know, that maintenance coordinator's head, right? And so it's going to, it's going to actually know more than them, you know. [00:32:26] Jason: Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. It's the future. Cool. Well, you're rolling out a bunch of new features. You're announcing these today. You've told me a little bit, but why don't you tell the listeners what's changing, what's new, what innovations have come out? What are you guys launching? [00:32:41] David: Yeah. Exciting. Yeah. So, the biggest one I think is, which is the most exciting is, is Resiroo, which is the first one that actually handles all the communications with the resident and does the triage and troubleshooting. First one of what are you talking about? So we have our products. [00:32:57] David: So you have these AI tools, right? These agents. Right.  [00:33:00] Jason: And so, you know, every, so think of them like different sort of people?  [00:33:04] David: Skill sets. Yeah. Different person. Okay. Exactly. And so that's when you come and see our display at the NARPM conference, you'll actually will see these five agents kind of in their work desk and in their environments, kind of cool. [00:33:15] David: Okay. Able to see them right. So the coolest part about that one is we're doing a major product you know, update on that for not only the knowledge base, but we're actually turning that over to the company. We were talking about this a little bit before, and now they own their own AI agent and they can customize it into how they want it to ask questions or the type of questions and the mindsets when it's triaging stuff. [00:33:41] David: Triaging work orders for their portfolio. Like super cool. So fully customizable to your company, right?  [00:33:49] Jason: So now sometimes the more humans get involved, the more they mess stuff up.  [00:33:54] David: Yes. We make sure they don't mess it up. So everyone's going to learn how to write prompts and they'll submit it into us. [00:33:59] David: And we have a great team of AI engineers that when that knowledge base is written or what they're doing. We will ensure that it is put in so that it actually produces the desire outcome, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's a very exciting one. The second one that I'm that I think is so cool, do you know that only 10% of all estimates get approved by the owner without one or multiple questions? [00:34:23] David: Because owners really struggle with trust when it comes to estimates. Like 10%. Like, that's a really bad number, I felt as the industry that owners only believe us one out of 10 times. Like that's the way I took that. Yeah. Right. And so, Owneroo is what I coined inside, is the estimate of the future. [00:34:41] David: That really was looking in understanding like what was, what questions was the owner asking when they were rejecting a bid that that we could proactively ask the answer for them to help guide them to understanding the value in this estimate that they're looking at in historical context of the property. [00:35:00] David: How many other people have experienced this issue? Like, like there's a whole bunch of factors that should go into an estimate and an estimate should no longer be like, here's a cost from Frank. Right? Like, like that was like, like that was...  [00:35:14] Jason: here's what Frank said it is. Yeah. Like that was like from the 1940s. [00:35:17] Jason: That's good. How do I trust that?  [00:35:18] David: How do I trust that? That was from the forties and we're still...  [00:35:21] Jason: how much went into this decision? Was this just out of the blue, like pulled out of your ass or is this like legit?  [00:35:27] David: Yeah. Yeah. What's the, you know, we live in a data-driven world, so what's the intellect behind this estimate? [00:35:33] David: And so I'm really excited about Owneroo, which is going to be the new standard for the way the estimates are created. We have the front desk agent which is coming out. So, that one is going to handle phone calls that are coming in, be able to talk about available listings, actual general questions about leases route phone calls over to property managers for you. [00:35:54] David: So again. Very human-like interaction, great AI voice. Actually. We feel it's going to be the best in the industry. So a person's calling in, just like they're calling your office able to handle all those front desk things. We, we have the PM chat, which is now the employee which is fully integrated into all of your systems. [00:36:14] David: It's in Slack. That's your employee that you get to talk to. We believe that if you're going to hire somebody, they should be inside of your communication channels. You have the Google Chrome extension that it's on right inside your AppFolio or your buildium or your Rentvine software that you can ask and talk to it. [00:36:31] David: So, yeah, so we have a lot of exciting products that have come out. And then of course the backbone of all of them in the middle is Vendoroo, which handles all the scheduling, all the communications. You know, a resident asks for an update, responds to them, an owner asks for an update, it responds to them. [00:36:48] David: And you know, it handles actually the body of the work order. So you have those five tools, we believe are what the property management industry said. If you are going to give me an employee, this is what the employee has to be. This is what makes up that employee. So we say that these tools, these agents were actually built by the property management industry. [00:37:08] David: And that excites me because if you're not building AI tools from working with your partners, from being on the ground floor with them and using the data and building tools based upon the data and their pain points and their failures, buyer beware. If somebody's coming to you and saying, Hey, we figured this all out in the lab. [00:37:25] David: Come use it. Yeah. Right. Buyer beware.  [00:37:29] Jason: Yeah. So you guys connect with Slack. They can communicate through Slack, but it slack's a paid tool. Have you guys considered Telegram? I love Telegram Messenger.  [00:37:37] Jason: Alright. Could you do that? Write it down. Telegram Messenger is like the iMessage tool that works on every device. [00:37:44] Jason: It's free. It's one of the most secure, it's not owned or controlled by Facebook. Like, WhatsApp, like, yeah. But WhatsApp might be a close second, but we use Telegram internally, so I love Telegram.  [00:37:58] David: We'll definitely take that into, into consideration for sure. Yeah, check it  [00:38:02] Jason: out. Because I, what I love is the voice message feature and I can just listen to my team and others at like high speed, but internal communications and it's free for everybody, which is great. [00:38:12] Jason: So, yeah.  [00:38:13] David: Yeah. I think a lot, for a lot of people it was like you know, who was Vendoroo in the beginning and Vendoroo was like the team of like people that were trying to figure out like how is AI going to work in this industry? [00:38:26] David: How is it going to solve the needs of our property management partners? And this is why I say to everybody, if you thought about Vendoroo, if you came in and the experience wasn't great with Vendoroo, if you're one of our existing clients that has been with us and you're and you're still moving forward, and we thank you so much for your dedication to this, the Vendoroo product, everything that we've done, everything that we worked at is being showcased at the NARPM broker owner. The email's going out today. This is who Vendoroo is. We are a team that is a technology partner for the property management industry that is helping building meaningful AI tools, specifically by demand, by our industry to help us show value and to preserve this great industry. [00:39:09] David: For the future in this new AI economy, right? Like we need to step up. We have clients that are adding doors left and right because they're showing their clients that they use an AI maintenance system and their clients are like, this is what I expect from a property management in this community. [00:39:24] David: Right? And again, Owneroo, that estimate, we believe that in the future. Like, like owners are going to say like, I'm not approving an estimate unless it's like the estimate of the future, right? Like, like that's the new standard. So you got to know what the new standards are and you got to get technology that are going to help you compete with those new standards that will be in your community and are will be in your community in the next week, the next two weeks. [00:39:46] David: And definitely some really cool products in the next six months.  [00:39:49] Jason: All right. Well, yeah, I'm really excited to see what you guys have been able to create so far. So yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. All right. Well David, it's been awesome having you on the show. Sounds like you guys are really innovating the future. Everybody come to DoorGrow Live. David, are you going to be at that one? I will be there. All right, so you can come meet David in person. [00:40:08] Jason: We've got some amazing people that are going to be at this. We've got technology people. There's a gentleman there, one of the vendors they created another really cool tool, but he had a hundred million dollars exit, you know, in a previous business, like there's really amazing entrepreneurs and people at this event, so come to DoorGrow Live, get your tickets, and if you do, we have just decided that we're going to give out to anybody that registers. [00:40:34] Jason: You can pick from one of our free bonuses that are well worth the price of the ticket. Or coming or anything in and of itself, including our pricing secrets training that goes over a three tier hybrid pricing model or our sales secrets training, which goes over how we're helping property managers crush it and closing more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:40:55] Jason: And reputation secrets, which are helping our clients get way more positive reviews by leveraging the psychology and the law of reciprocity and getting the majority of their tenants in order to give them positive feedback online. Maybe some others. So you'll be able to pick from these bonuses one of these that you might like and that's our free, most incredible free gift ever that we'll give to each person that registers for DoorGrow Live. [00:41:19] Jason: So.  [00:41:20] David: Cool. Awesome man. Always great to see you. Looking forward to seeing you at DoorGrow Live and love that you guys are working on pricing because AI is going to make people think different about pricing. It's going to be way more efficient, so you guys are ahead of the curve on that. Great job, Jason. [00:41:33] Jason: Awesome. All right, so how can they check out Vendoroo, David?  [00:41:36] David: Just visit, Vendoroo.ai, go to the website, request a demo with one of our great sales reps, and yeah they'd love to help you out. See all the new products, see how far it's come. And again, we thank everybody from the bottom of our hearts for all their effort, people who've tried us out. [00:41:52] David: Come back and see what you built and yeah. Come check us out at Vendoroo.  [00:41:57] Jason: Got it. Go check out Vendoroo, it's vendor. If you know how to spell that, V-E-N-D-O-R-O-O dot A-I, go check it out. All right? And if you're a property management entrepreneur, you want to add doors, you want to make your business scalable, you want to get out of the day to day, you want to increase the capacity so your company could easily handle another 200 plus doors without having to make any significant systems changes, reach out to us at DoorGrow. We will help you figure it out. So until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

It's not always easy to get information from clients. If you're in a situation where you have good relationships with your clients, but you're struggling to get the information you need from them, there are very specific things that you can do that will help you to accomplish that a lot faster and a lot more organically. It'll just feel better when you're doing it right, and they'll be a lot more likely to help you with it. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist, and I will be discussing getting information out of clients. Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Hey, welcome back to you too. I'm really excited to talk about this because let's be honest, like we're all very conscious of the fact that everyone wants our information, so it's a bit of a struggle sometimes. David: Yeah, it really is. And when we're looking at trying to extract information from clients, sometimes it's like trying to pull teeth. Or trying to get the information that we need to either advance the sale or to be able to get an order completed and that sort of thing. And it can definitely be challenging. Kevin: Yeah, no doubt. How much of it do you think is how people ask for the information? Instead of saying like, give me this. Is it better to kind of think about it in more of a storytelling narrative kind of way to pull things out? David: That's a great question. I think a lot of it depends on your personality and the way that you communicate with people. Many salespeople, many of the best salespeople, I think are natural storytellers. You ask them what time it is and it starts with a story. Right? So... Kevin: Well, it all started back when I was eight. David: Let's talk about time, shall we? Kevin: Yeah. David: Yeah, so I think it can take that form. I think there are also situations, a lot of times, where we know what we need to get from them, and sometimes if we're just going for it all the time, that can come across as a little too pushy in some ways. So I think there's a natural give and take that needs to happen, so that people can feel engaged with us. If they feel engaged in the conversation, if they feel that we're listening to them, paying attention to what they need, and that's woven in with getting the next piece of information that I need without coming across like an interrogator. Like I'm going to shine a light on you. It's like the third degree in the cop movies. Right? If it feels like that, they're gone. But when you're able to just engage them and let them know that you care about getting them a result, then they're a lot more likely to be free with the information. Kevin: Obviously at the front end of a sales cycle, it's more basic information and it keeps going, getting more detailed as things go on. Should people change their approach as they go on from first contacting someone to maybe having a warm or even hot lead? David: Definitely, and I think you raised exactly the right point there, which is that it does generally start out more general and then it gets more and more specific as you're getting down to it. Sometimes salespeople will lead with things like, what's your budget? Right? Which is kind of intrusive, right? Kevin: Yeah. That's the one, right? David: You don't need to ask me about my budget if I'm not buying anything from you, right? Kevin: Yeah, yeah. What's your budget? What's your timeline? Right? Isn't that what everybody always says first? David: Yeah. And that's not the kind of thing that generally needs to come first. Initially, what needs to happen is they need to feel some sort of connection. They need to have a clear idea of what you do, how you can help them, and all that sort of thing. So I think a lot of times, in the early stages of a relationship when we're first meeting a prospect, it is information gathering from us, but it's about trying to find out what they need, what they're looking for,

The Life of David - You are not to be paralyzed by your guilt, but faithful in your calling. Recognize that Christ is your Saviour; He has dealt with your sin and your guilt.

March 19, 2025Today's Reading: Matthew 2:13-15, 19-23Daily Lectionary: Genesis 22:1-19; Mark 7:1-23And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” (Matthew 2:14-15)In the Name + of Jesus. Amen.St. Joseph has a small but very important role to play in the history of salvation. He is only featured in the infancy narratives of Jesus and in His genealogy. He is referred to again in the story of Jesus teaching in the temple as an adolescent, though not by name. Then, he disappears from the story. Presumably, St. Joseph died when Jesus was a teenager or a young man. The Bible doesn't say for certain, but when Jesus entrusts His mother, Mary, to the care of His beloved disciple, John, it confirms that Joseph was no longer around to care for Mary.Despite his almost cameo appearance in the biblical narrative, Joseph's role is very important. First, in a very simple way, Joseph was entrusted with taking care of the Christ child along with His mother. While he was not Jesus' father by blood, he was a father in office. He was the legal guardian and adopted father of Jesus, and so Jesus was legally part of Joseph's family tree. By willingly taking on this role when He was called by God through the voice of an angel, Joseph confirms the goodness and necessity of dads, and he provides an example of the kind of sacrificial love dads should have for their families. Any young men who read the story of Joseph who hope to be dads one day, or who have already become dads, should be encouraged by his example and selfless service to his wife and child.But Joseph also plays a spiritual role in the history of salvation. In carrying out his role as the guardian of Jesus, he takes Him to Bethlehem to be born and then into Egypt to hide from Herod's wrath. He brings Him back out of Egypt after Herod's death and settles in His hometown of Nazareth. His guardianship of Jesus fulfills prophecies that show Jesus to be the Son of God. “This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.'”In his adopted fatherhood, Joseph also reveals the Fatherhood of God and the divine Sonship of Jesus. Thanks be to God for the service of St. Joseph, and for all fathers.In the Name + of Jesus. Amen.Almighty God, from the house of Your servant David You raised up Joseph to be the guardian of Your incarnate Son and the husband of His mother, Mary. Grant us grace to follow the example of this faithful workman in heeding Your counsel and obeying Your commands; through Jesus Christ, our Lord, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. (Collect for the Festival of St. Joseph)-Rev. Jacob Ehrhard, pastor of St. John's Lutheran Church and School in Chicago, IL.Audio Reflections Speaker: Pastor Jonathan Lackey is the pastor at Grace Lutheran Church, Vine Grove, KY.Visit the timeless rhythms of the Christian life with award-winning author Harold L. Senkbeil. As he addresses the concerns and pressures of the world today, you'll discover that even while the world is dying, Christ's death brings about life. True life. One that He offers to you. Order Now!

Malcolm: Are you saying that you cheated science and faked high blood pressure so that you could remain in the job? David: You know, you got to ask yourself that. Malcolm: Did you? David: What's worse, cheating medical science or cheating friends? This week we continue our deep dive into the original UK Office series with episodes 5 & 6: "New Girl" and "Judgement". Support our show and become a member of Scott's Tots on Patreon! For only $5/month, Tots get ad-free episodes plus exclusive access to our monthly Mailbag episodes where we casually pick through every single message/question/comment we receive. We also have Season 2 of our Ted Lasso podcast Biscuits with the Boss available to our Patrons, as well as our White Lotus Christmas Special, Party Down, and unreleased episodes of this show. Oh, and Tots get access to exclusive channels on our Discord. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We get results from social media when we're able to identify the result that we're looking to get, and identify the messaging that we need to create to be able to get in front of these ideal prospects to have them raise their hands and express interest. When we do those things correctly, then you can get to the point where nearly everybody you talk to is actually qualified to do business with you. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing getting results from social media. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David. This is a big topic. Talk about opening a can of worms. It's something everybody wants, and we talked, last podcast about learning online and what great resources there are. This is a place where there may be such an overload of information and different ideas that I don't know if you're going to find the answer online. I really don't. David: You'll find a lot of answers online. Yeah., Right? Whether or not it's the answer you're looking for, whether or not it's the answer that solves your problem, that is the big question mark. But I feel like this topic is so important because everyone's on social media. Everyone's trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. And the reason that I believe the word results is so important is that it narrows your focus. It forces you to think in terms of, okay, what is the result I even want to get here? What am I trying to do? Because as we talked about in a previous podcast, you can go on social media and it's nothing but distraction after distraction. And if you just turn it on and go in there without a really strong focus in terms of what you want to accomplish, what result you want to get, you're not getting any sort of result, except you're going to get pulled into other people's experiences. So from my standpoint, the first thing we need to do is to identify what is the result that I would like to get from social media? And then you can look at how much time that I spend on there is actually allocated to getting that result. That'll tell you a lot right off the bat. Jay: Yeah, and I think that there is a misguided focus that you need a large audience, right? Like if I can get up to 10, 000 followers or whatever, that's not true. it could be better to have a thousand dedicated followers who are potential clients than having a hundred thousand people who may just clog up your pipeline and who really never are going to be your clients. David: Right. And if they're not responding to what you do, if they're not liking, if they're not replying, then the algorithm says people aren't interested in this. So you're exactly right. If you just had the hundred people or so who are going to click today's link on there. You'd be seeing everybody, everyone would be seeing your stuff. But of course it's impossible to do that. So you're exactly right. It's about saying, all right, well, how can I get to more of the right kind of people who resonate with the material that I'm putting out? And I am not speaking as an authority on social media. Okay. I want to be really clear about this. I'm not coming to you and saying, oh yes, I'm the guy for social media. No, not saying that. However, what we have been able to do is to identify specific things that our clients have wanted to accomplish, and we're very good at helping them accomplish it, once we decide exactly what those results are. Jay: Yeah, I'll tell you where we're at right now in our company. As you know, we offer Tax Services to a very specific group, so, I've told you in the past, we have spent two years identifying keywords for paid ads, and it's been a constant process where we're refining, I do the consultations, And so when I see that we're getting consultations that are not in the strike zone, I go back to our keyword, you know, the person doing our Google ads, and we refine, and we refine, and refine. And I've told you,

Like so many Psalms, Psalm 16 is ultimately about Jesus Christ. And because it is about Christ that it is able to be applied to each and every person who follows Him. It is because of Jesus that we can say with the psalmist David “You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.” This sermon was preached at Legacy Reformed Baptist Church in East Grand Forks, MN. For more information visit www.LegacyRBC.org.

Check our upcoming events: https://bit.ly/3whDgVo Tweetable quote from Dr. David “You can't eat or drink kindness hormones; you have to make them, and that comes through your experiences, the things that you're doing, and the way that you're being.” Summary In this episode, Dr Espen is joined by Dr. David Hamilton, a writer, columnist, and speaker. They discuss the transformative power of kindness on mental and physical health. Their conversation explores how kindness impacts blood pressure, cardiovascular health, and overall well-being. Dr. Hamilton shares research findings on the physiological benefits of kindness, such as the release of oxytocin and its anti-aging effects. The episode emphasizes the importance of self-kindness, practical strategies for incorporating kindness into daily life, and its broader implications for collective consciousness and personal development.

The Life of David - You are in a spiritual war and so you must fight in the name of God. Do not be afraid for since Christ was victorious you also know victory.

The Life of David - You are in a spiritual war and so you must fight in the name of God. Do not be afraid for since Christ was victorious you also know victory.

The Life of David - You are in a spiritual war and so you must fight in the name of God. Do not be afraid for since Christ was victorious you also know victory.

David You is the founder of the coffee and tea room, Balue Stockholm. I first met David when he was in New York working with the Lichen family.  You can feel the calmness in his captions with the beautiful photos he takes of Balue and its environment along with the wonderful offerings he presents. Pop up and tea experience. Showroom for catering and events.  Moon is in charge. Beautiful, like pyramids. Please welcome David You to Wear Many Hats. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠instagram.com/baluestockholm ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠instagram.com/wearmanyhatswmh⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠instagram.com/rashadrastam⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠rashadrastam.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wearmanyhats.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Maintenance is often the most challenging area in a property management business. What if you could automate your maintenance workflow with an in-house, expert AI maintenance coordinator? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with David from Vendoroo (formally Tulu) to talk about AI maintenance coordination and how it could revolutionize the property management industry. You'll Learn [05:25] The AI Revolution [10:51] What can AI Maintenance Coordination Do? [20:58] How Vendoroo Handles Work Orders [27:56] Why You Should Have in-House Maintenance [37:30] Where do Humans Step in? [41:37] Handling Worst-Case Scenarios Tweetables “Property management is a very human business. It's a very relationship-driven business.” “Is it scalable? Is it burning you out? Is it pulling you away from other duties that you need to be? Are you spreading yourself too thin? Great questions to ask if you have growth objectives.” “Residents don't want to talk to a computer. They want to feel that they have a connection to their property manager.” “The first offense creates a little crack between the relationship. The second one, you're losing trust with your owner.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] David: Even people who had in house maintenance coordinators or VAs, good ones, always still feel that they needed to second check all the work. And now when they're seeing the justification and they're seeing the education behind it, they get this sense of like, I can let go. You know why? Because this system is doing maintenance exactly the way that I'm asking it to do maintenance. And they feel that now they're actually back in control.  [00:00:24] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Property Managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high, trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:05] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:25] And now let's get into the show. All right. So today I'm hanging out with David Normand and Reza Keshavarzi. Did I say your last name right?  [00:01:36] David: We always say it sounds like the great sauce that you would put on a steak. Keshavari. So delicious. [00:01:41] Jason: All right.  [00:01:41] David: Yes. Cool.  [00:01:43] Jason: So David and Reza are from a company called Tulu, which we'll be getting into, which I think are probably revolutionizing maintenance related to AI and our topic today, we're going to be talking about AI and maintenance coordination, maybe getting into some of the current maintenance challenges, what AI could help with, what should be automated, what shouldn't be automated because I think that's a very important thing to cover and how to turn maintenance into a profit center. Before we get into that, why don't we get into some background? So David, why don't you give us the journey? How did you two get into this? How did you event like, how did you start your journey in the property management space? [00:02:24] David: Yeah, great. It's crazy to think about it. It just all started probably about 15 years ago. Like many of you, started a property management company with a buddy of mine. I remember we started off with 80 doors. Got our 1st client, was excited. He left his job at Verizon. I was actually in the banking industry, bidding on subprime auto loans and the 2008 crash happened. And so we all knew what happened after that. And so anyway we actually had some tremendous success and in just over four years we added over 600 doors. Which was a phenomenal growth in our market. And we had a lot of people going, "Hey, what's your secret sauce? what are you guys doing?" Right. And the reality was, is that we just cared, right? We cared harder. We had fiduciary duty. And all of these owners were leaving their other property managers and saying, "Hey, Maybe these guys have it figured out," and we were getting conversions and our close rate was like 80%. [00:03:13] It was really crazy, but something happened and just like many of us, owners started getting frustrated feeling like, the magic was wearing off because at the end of the day, no matter how hard we worked. Those owner statements and those maintenance invoices at the end of the month, I realized were the main source of friction between those long lasting relationships and the same reason why somebody left that previous property manager to come over for the hope of more transparency and maintenance was the same issue that we ran into. [00:03:41] Right. So that led me on this journey of trying to figure out, how do we standardize our fiduciary duty to owners when it comes to maintenance and help them bring transparency and education and understanding to what I feel is really the cornerstone foundation of what a great relationship is? Because no, the building can be full, the mortgage can be paid, but those maintenance bills still come in and there's still the questions.  [00:04:06] "Why does this cost this much? So I had some great opportunities to work went on with Fannie Mae helped them manage their rental portfolio, but still in the back of my head, wanted to try to solve this issue. And all these years later, I get a phone call from somebody that said, "Hey, you need to meet this guy, Reza. He's in the HOA industry. And he's seen a similar issue with lack of transparency. And I think that you guys are trying to solve the same issue. Hey, why don't you meet up?" And I'll, and I'll preface this. This was the fourth introduction to a guy in a fourth type of tech or a company that we try to part with. [00:04:40] And it just shows you the journey of an entrepreneur. Like you never know when that right connection that's going to align with your passions, resources, and understanding happens. And I actually had three other techs that didn't work out before. And I didn't want to bring them to market. [00:04:52] Right. So that's our story. We got introduced to each other and the synergies have been fantastic. And I'm really excited to talk about what we're doing here in the space. So it's been a crazy journey. It's been exciting. Maybe one day I'll write a book down the road about all the things not to do. [00:05:04] Jason: I think every entrepreneur that has a little bit of success could write that book. I'm sure. So cool. David, where do you think we should start? Like there's a revolution right now, this AI revolution, like it's AI everywhere. And and it's moving fast.  [00:05:21] David: Yes.  [00:05:21] Jason: Like really fast. [00:05:22] And it's a bit crazy. And. Everything's changing. There's a million software tools and companies coming out. Maybe AI is making all of them. I have no idea, but like...  [00:05:31] David: 85 percent of all content written online is written by AI these days. So yeah, definitely.  [00:05:35] Jason: Right. There's the fake internet theory that like the majority of the traffic and communication and comments on the internet isn't even real. So it's like we're walking around this fake ghost town online. And we're consuming content and we're like none the wiser in a lot of instances. So my quick take, for those listening, as we're going through this AI revolution, it's exciting. There's a lot of change happening. [00:05:57] We don't want to be left behind. We want to make sure we're paying attention to what's new, what we can use. Everybody's probably used chat GPT once or twice or keeps hearing about it from other people. "They've got a GPT, that thing that you use." Yeah. I used it this morning, right? Like I was trying to figure out something in my Chevy Tahoe. [00:06:15] And I was like, "how do I do this thing in my Tahoe? Like, can you just tell me?" And it can collapse time, but sometimes it's not useful. I think my take on this is that human interaction is going to be a premium. It's going to be at a premium. It's going to be something that really sets people apart because we're moving away from humanity to some degree by leveraging all this tech and AI and all these tools and property management is a very human business. [00:06:43] It's a very relationship driven business. And and I think we'll get into this today. We want to be careful of using technology where we shouldn't or trying to trick people. "Well, look, I'm pretending like it's me, but it's AI. Haha. I tricked you." And what's funny is there's little indicators, like, and we know that this stuff's being used in a lot of different ways, like governments are using this now, like, we don't even know what's real on the news or what's like deep fakes or AI, like they're showing people's like doing interviews and people are zooming in and noticing their rings are disappearing and like weird stuff, right? [00:07:20] David: Yeah.  [00:07:20] Jason: And stuff's going viral on like the internet. And so we're living in this world where we're super skeptical and we wonder if anything's real.  [00:07:28] David: Yeah.  [00:07:29] Jason: Sometimes people are even asking, like, is this AI on a phone call?  [00:07:33] David: Yeah, well, you can't tell the difference now. I'll tell you, our tech team and AI guys they actually played around with me a little bit and they actually use my voice and had me doing work orders and no one could tell it was them. [00:07:44] Not me speaking and giving triage and doing that type of stuff. And I actually I tested it with my wife and I sent her a message over it and she didn't even blink an eye. Didn't even blink an eye. It was crazy. It was that first like aha moment that really when we talk about our fiduciary duty to our clients and ourselves about the power of this and where it's going, right. [00:08:01] And to that point. So when it comes to AI, I think people need to understand that really, the way that we look at chat GBT to me is just the new Google, right? It's Google on steroids. Okay. And so, yeah, for sure. Do we use some chat GBT to understand like, how to write the perfect sentence structure? For sure. [00:08:18] But the cool part about this, Jason, is that what we're doing is: how do we use these models in this education that teach it about fiduciary duty to your owners? That's what gets me excited, right? That's what gets me excited to understand and to think intelligently and to think with thoughtfulness to the owner's pocketbooks when it's considering a decision of how to dispatch for maintenance, right? [00:08:42] Like, isn't that what we're all looking for? That we need a system that every work order that comes in that it goes to a expert maintenance coordinator that we know what that costs. I'm talking expert maintenance coordinator, a person's been in this job for 15 to 20 years that you can send a work order to and they don't make an error. [00:09:00] They're intelligent. They're able to educate, they're able to be client facing. Like there's a real skill set there if you put that on a CV for somebody, right? But that's not what this industry is filled with. Actually, this industry is filled with individuals who are under pressure to find the most affordable maintenance solutions and the most affordable ways to try to find people to run those maintenance solutions. We're allocating the least amount of resources to handle what I consider the highest probability of owner dissatisfaction in the property management relationship with the owner, right? So I have a VA who's 2000 miles away that's responsible for spending a thousand dollars in my owner's money. [00:09:38] And there's all types of potential errors and things that are happening as a result of that. So the way that we look at AI and actually in our business, we just use the word smart a lot. And we try to use that word, that intelligent instead of artificial. Because you know what? There is a lot of human input that has gone into this to teach it how to be smart and to teach it how to consider the fiduciary duty. [00:09:59] So at the end of the day, I would encourage all the listeners here that are going on this journey with us today to understand, not to be skeptical, how to maximize its value, right? And that's really what we're going to be focusing on today and to show you how we're maximizing its value to help us achieve what we call our dream outcome when handling maintenance. [00:10:18] Our dream outcome is as a property manager, I'm starting a company or I'm looking to grow, or I'm hitting those next growth objectives, or I'm looking for ways to be more profitable. What is my dream outcome? And that all circles around having an expert maintenance coordination in my office that is reducing trips costs and considering the fiduciary duty to my clients. [00:10:40] Right? So that's what we'll talk about here today and how we're using AI to achieve that.  [00:10:43] Jason: Got it. Well, let's get into it. So what can AI do and what can't AI do? Like, well, specifically what can Tulu do and what can't Tulu do?  [00:10:54] Where's the line drawn?  [00:10:55] David: Yeah, that's a great question. [00:10:56] So first of all, I always tell everybody this out of the beginning: we are not an outsourced maintenance coordination solution. We're not an outsourced company. Yeah. We are not a vendor. Okay. We're not bringing vendors to your marketplace. Okay. Tulu is your expert in house maintenance coordinator. [00:11:13] So if you're thinking of "I'm hiring a maintenance coordinator" or "I'm building a property management and I need a maintenance coordinator," you now have that. That's that ability to add this onto your software, your system. It's a simple plug and play. You get to remain inside of your portal, you don't have to leave it. [00:11:30] There's not another new portal, all updates, all things are pushing to Buildium and we're pushing to Appfolio. That was a big part of it. There's no new app for the vendors. There's no new app for the clients because we know what's important for them to live inside of there. So what can it do? Well, first of all, it's a leader. [00:11:43] Okay. And being a leader means that it is going to use the information that we capture about your company to lead your VAs, to make expert triage decisions that always consider your fiduciary duty to the owner. So let's give an example right here to break that down. Right. Say a hot water tank comes in. [00:12:03] Okay. Hot water tank's leaking. Okay. First thing it's going to want to understand is what time of the day is it and where is the hot water tank leaking from?  [00:12:09] Jason: Okay.  [00:12:10] David: And then it's going to determine based upon the location of the hot water tank, the type of the hot water tank, which type of vendor at which time is the right one to send out. That is the most cost effective that has the greatest probability of resolving that issue for the best price and meets the satisfaction of the resident. Right. Now that was a mouthful right there. Okay. And if you think about all of the potential errors and data points and things that are involved, the smart maintenance coordinator considers all those and it brings out a triage and it tells the VA "here's the pieces that you're missing. Here's the information that I need. And here's what my suggestion is for you to move forward." So it's amazing at being a leader. And then it's amazing at being an expert about creating communications for the resident and to the vendor to direct them. And then it's also an educator and at the bottom of every work order. [00:12:58] And I hope to be able to show some people it's really cool. We don't believe in just telling people what to do. We should educate them and tell them why they're doing what they're doing. Right. So imagine if you had the best expert maintenance coordinator leaning over the shoulder of every VA that you have standing there and telling them every work order, every time, here's what to do, here's how to do it, and here's why you're doing it. Right. And as a result, we're finding that VAs that come over that are dedicated to the account in two weeks, they're educated. And in six weeks, the majority of them are executing as a high level maintenance expert within six weeks. Of after sitting down and learning the training system, because just as much as it's leading, it's also training and educating. [00:13:38] That is a wow moment for somebody who's been in the space, who's been here for 15 years, managing hundreds and hundreds of people for government entities and stuff and understanding the amount of time and effort and training that goes into somebody. And then all of a sudden they come and they tell you, "Hey, by the way, I got a new job. Thank you for all the training. I'm going to go make $30,000 somewhere else," right? How many times has this happened to me? Hundreds of times, right? And so that's a big part of what we're solving here.  [00:14:02] Jason: So in order to be effective and operate as an expert maintenance coordinator so that your VAs that don't have this knowledge can function as if they have this knowledge, then this has to be programmed, right? Maybe it'd be helpful for, the viewers or listeners of this podcast to find out what are all the inputs that go into this? What did they have to provide and what do you guys provide, so this AI, they can trust it? [00:14:29] David: Yeah. Yeah. Great question, Jason. So first of all, I want to put it on point two to make an emphasis that in this journey that we're all learning about these smart technologies and AI, there's still a big part of human component, right? [00:14:38] And it's like when you chat, when you write something in chat GBT, like you just don't send it without looking at it. Right. You're reviewing it and making sure it's still saying that you want it to say. Right. So everybody rest assured this thing is not, living on its own and there's checks and balances. [00:14:51] But the onboarding on average takes 30 to 45 minutes. Okay. And one of the things that we did is number one is, when it comes to triaging and best practices, there's literally probably about 500,000 work orders of data points that it's considering. And it's an expert in that thing that's saying, "Hey, listen, this is how you should handle every work order that comes in because I've seen this, 20,000 times, and this is the best outcome." [00:15:18] Right. But then what it does is it allows the property manager to talk in natural language. Like you want to talk like a robot. We don't have to write weird code. Just say things. "Hey the owner of one, two, three main street really loves Tom." Tom works on his properties. Comes in 123 main street comes up. It understands what Tom's capabilities are. And it says, "please use Tom to use this." The owner prefers that Tom works on his properties. They have a great relationship. Cool. And so those little tidbits for example, if the heat goes out in unit number one, understand that access has to be in unit number two basement to the HVAC unit, right? [00:15:52] So that's good to know, but why is that important to know? Because most VAs would make a mistake. They say there's no heat. They don't check property notes. They send out the plumber. Plumber is knocking on the door at unit number one. Person says, I don't know where the HVAC unit is. Tenant next door is not home. [00:16:06] Now you just charge your owner for 250 emergency call to go out. The resident still doesn't have heat. They think that you're unorganized. It shows you're unorganized on your owner statement because there's two invoices. "Oh, no, wait, you want to cover that? You're unorganized." So you just ate 250 that you're already not marking up on maintenance and you do that 10 times a month. [00:16:25] Okay. And that's what's going on.  [00:16:27] Jason: And this is where then the owner's like, "I might as well just do it myself because I know everything and it's in my head." So how did they get all of that out of their head? All the little things they know about each property, each multi unit property, what's in the basements, what's..? [00:16:40] David: We have a cool onboarding process. And again, most times about 30-45 minutes, they sit in, it's called building your AI co pilot. Actually, a lot of people dig it. It's cool. It's a cool process. And we will be first, we go into your system and we're able to pull out all your work order data and it organizes all your vendors, and we can tell who all your vendors are and what you're doing based upon the work order types. [00:16:59] We can tell if you're a preferred guy is here. Number one guy is, "Hey. This guy always seems to be working on these properties." So there's a lot of information that we gather. And then you just come in and you're like, "yeah, he's my primary. He's my secondary. Oh, here's this little information about this property." [00:17:13] So you really don't have to get like, like crazy. Like, like, the mailbox is located, like. You can add that stuff later, but in the beginning, it's just like, what are those important rules? I remember this one that really jumped out at me as impactful, a classic mistake, this owner had a lady living in the apartment for 35 years. [00:17:31] Okay, and she's getting old and one of the rules is that no matter what maintenance ticket comes in, "don't ask her to triage. Don't ask her. It's the tenant's responsibility. I love this person. Please send her out and just take care of her. Right?" What a great rule to put into your system that shows the owner that when that work order comes in, He's not getting a call from, and I forget what her name is. [00:17:51] And like, they're asking me to change my light bulbs again. And then he's like, I told you twice not to do this. And next thing he's looking for another property manager. And I always love that example of that rule. So that's what you're looking as far as the information you're giving us takes about 30 to 45 minutes. [00:18:03] For people who have anywhere between, 150 to 350 properties. If you start having, 500, 600, a thousand, I would definitely allocate up to two hours and onboarding for sure.  [00:18:13] Jason: Okay. That's really fast when it comes to rolling out a new technology. Yeah. It's ridiculously fast.  [00:18:19] David: Yeah. [00:18:19] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Extremely quick. So basically you have all this learning and understanding that's going into who your preferred vendors are. We know how to handle the maintenance work orders. There's no like integration that has to happen. And so as this triage is coming through, you're getting this expert level triage and you can add things down the road. [00:18:38] You can add it, but how to handle the work orders as we say, there's really nothing new in maintenance. What's new is: "what's the NT for the property? Are there any special conditions that we need to know? Right? What are your residents' responsibilities and what are you responsible for?" Once you have those four questions answered, how to handle the hot water tank, at what time to hit on the hot water tank, how to, how to repair this door, how to do that. [00:19:02] Those true principles of maintenance are true for everybody, if that makes sense, right? So, so that's a big part of the value that you get that You're hiring an expert maintenance coordinator. If you were to hire him, you wouldn't necessarily be telling him. "Hey, this is how you replace a doorknob." [00:19:18] He should already know that when you hired him. Right. So think of like it that way when you're considering us as a technology.  [00:19:24] Jason: So, a human maintenance coordinator, the challenge would be, there's no way they can remember every detail about every property, right?  [00:19:32] David: Yeah,  [00:19:32] Jason: it's not. Which means they would have to keep notes. [00:19:35] Let's say they've already got a decent amount of notes somewhere. Might be in the property management software, maybe they've got their own, I don't know, database of something. Is there the ability to pull in all that information?  [00:19:46] David: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. To grab those notes out. A lot of people have the ability to export it. [00:19:51] They have a good note file or something like that. We get those, we take that information and it can just be pushed up into the system for sure. So yeah, the onboarding it, it can be, again, some people come in and say, "all I have is single family houses." Everything's pretty straightforward. [00:20:03] Other people send over an Excel list. "Here's my property notes at the property levels" and upload them. So that's the cool part where. You ingest into the system. There's not a lot of data, manual input. It's reading it and assigning it. And that's where we're using technology to help even improve the onboarding process that you talked about, right? [00:20:19] You think about people wear t shirts, like, I survived the Yardi onboarding process, right? Like, technology has come a long way to help improve that process, and that was a big part that we focused on.  [00:20:28] Jason: Yeah, that's wild. So once you've got them onboarded and they're in your system, the AI knows pretty much everything about the property, but maybe it doesn't, maybe there's some things it doesn't know. [00:20:41] And so work order comes up. You're working on something and it's still just in the property manager's head or it's still in the business owner's head or maybe they don't even know yet, but it runs there. It runs into an issue. It's like it has a question maybe, or it doesn't. It needs to know some more stuff. [00:20:57] I don't know. What happens in those scenarios? [00:21:00] David: Yeah, this is a great one. So, all right, so let's talk about the life cycle of a work order. Right. And let's everybody just understand that there still is a human component involved in this, right? Every property manager has a dedicated, we call them a remote team member, who's now this expert maintenance coordinator at the cost of a remote team member. [00:21:16] Now they're able to execute at a very high level. But there are going to be things that they're faced that they don't understand. So they have the ability to communicate with you one on one, or we also have this process internally that they have this ability to go, "I need a request from the expert in the loop" and the expert in the loop is you know, invoice review, complication that they're saying that the AI is not clear on them and it's asking for additional support. And so they can bump that up to individuals, myself, and there's other members of the team members that are big part of this and they can get expert level triage inside of there, to say, "Hey, listen, I'm facing with this vendor issue. They need 25 percent upfront. The job is only 500. I'm not understanding what to do here. The building is located and they're saying access is weird. They need to bring something in." There are complications that still involve human understanding. And so that expert in the loop solves that piece in there. [00:22:07] And also speaking of humans, we believe that residents and vendors still need to speak to a human. Okay. Super important. Okay. So the value that we have is that we're able to create expert level triage, According to their specifications and the training model and all the great things and the automation and the text messages that are written for them and the codes that are written for them the emails, all those things. [00:22:31] So, if we can automate at a very high level and free up our people to be able to provide support on the phone to the vendor on the field, or to actually talk to a resident, everybody knows this and I talk to everybody, guys, residents don't want to talk to a computer. They want to feel that they have a connection to their property manager and that when they call in, a lot of people have not even adapted technology for anybody who has, residents have been with them with a while and they're used to talking to Janet, they're used to talking to tell him inside and next thing you can say to them, "Oh, we have a new maintenance system. And by the way, you have to talk to the system." They're like, "okay. This is lame," right? Like, so that personal connection and we have a saying inside of the office that we keep your residents and your vendors within arm's length of you, right? It's communicating. They're using your property management name. [00:23:20] They're speaking on your behalf. This is an extension of your office. This is your maintenance coordinator. Don't think of this as a vendor. Don't think this is an outsourced maintenance solution that you're setting all your maintenance to some company that's sourcing vendors or bringing them in and doing every, this is your in house maintenance team. [00:23:38] So always consider that when you're thinking about Tulu, real people. In house maintenance coordinator just powered by AI enabled execute at a crazy high level.  [00:23:46] Jason: So, yeah. So how do tickets get into the maintenance system? Like how are they initiated? Do they still have to be answering their own phone calls? [00:23:56] Are they just putting it into their property manager software? And then Tulu is going to like start taking some action. What communication does Tulu facilitate or take over if we're going to be having still needing some humans to be in Tulu allows us to increase the amount of communication and care that we show. [00:24:13] Where do we draw the line? Like, where is Tulu stepping in and doing some communication and where do we need team members to be doing communication?  [00:24:21] David: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So let's just go through the life cycle of a work order for everybody. I think that's what everyone really understands when they're all thinking about this. [00:24:28] Okay, let's give me a work order from start to finish. Right? So no change to your residents. No change to anybody. They log into their portal, Buildium, Appfolio, RentVine, whatever they're using. They submit a maintenance work order, that maintenance work order through their system is dispatched to the Tulu maintenance coordinator, expert maintenance coordinator. [00:24:46] All the magic is happening, all the triage, everything is taking place, and inside of the property management software, they're going to see. Work order.  [00:24:53] Jason: And is that dispatched through via email? API? Yep.  [00:24:56] David: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just through email? Yep. Set up as simple. You can set it up as a maintenance coordinator and as the maintenance coordinator is set up and the email comes in and it pings out and that creates the work order and starts to process through the, yeah. [00:25:08] Yep. Cool. And then the property manager will see that the work order has been it's in triage on the status of their system. Then it's assigned, then the vendor will be assigned there. And then from there, the updates, when it's scheduled that we call it the who, what, and the why, right? [00:25:25] What's going on, who's doing it and what's being done to progress this for. That's a note. You're constantly getting those notes. Now, the cool part about this, Jason. is behind the scenes. All of those text messages and phone calls and emails that we call the noise that are between the residents and the vendors and everybody are all being captured in a system behind the scenes. [00:25:45] Right. Super value there, right? If a resident is a little bit upset about something or you have some questions, "Hey guys, can you hand me the phone call this one to show me the text messages," right? Communications are big part. So we capture all those communications inside there at any time that the owner of the property manager wants to pull them. [00:26:00] That's great. Then the work order is completed. The completion, quick question. So  [00:26:05] Jason: all this communication between tenants and vendors, unless they're using some sort of magical system That the vendors have to be in and that the tenants are logged into. And it's like seeing all this, how does Tulu capture that? [00:26:18] How does it know that the vendor is communicating with the tenant or the tenant? Okay. So it would be any point.  [00:26:24] David: Yeah. Good point. Any point that the the tenant. Is communicating or the vendor or just communicate with two of those. So if the vendor happened to communicate directly with the tenant, it would not capture that part, right? [00:26:34] That's their phone to phone with that part, right? So it's when the resident or the tenant is communicating with the maintenance coordinator. And as we all know, tenants and vendors love to communicate by text message, right? That's their number one thing to do. So, it's really cool for vendors too, because as we know, a bunch of vendors, they hate. "I don't want to work in another app." Vendors can take pictures from their phone. They can upload estimates from their phone. The estimate comes in and it's actually turned into this really pretty estimate because we know vendors estimates are notorious for being on the back of a paper and hand scratched, right? [00:27:06] So it actually creates into a brand new Tulu estimate. And so your owners get transparency into pricing and labor. And it's standardized and everything looks clean. And so yeah, vendors love it because they're not lazy, but they're busy guys. And instead of going home and trying to do a whole bunch of paperwork, they can now just generate an estimate, take a picture and shoot it right through. [00:27:22] So, yeah.  [00:27:23] Jason: Because the challenge that there's a lot of communication involved. And so usually to decrease the amount of communication, they're trying to figure out how do we get the vendors to just talk to the tenants directly to collapse time? But if you have AI, then my guess is that Tulu will still just act like that middle person because the vendor can communicate with them, they can immediately text you, then Tulu texts the tenant, then it's just doing it real time. [00:27:45] You don't have to wait on a human being in your office to like make this communication happen. So you're like, "well, we're so slow. Let's just get them to talk to each other." The AI is making this happen. Is that accurate?  [00:27:56] David: Huge point right here is, and man you really hit off the nail on the head on this one point here. [00:28:01] The amount of people that we are seeing that they're using vendors to perform triage in this space is actually alarming. Okay. Alarming. All right. Vendors should not be performing our triage. They should not be the ones trying to figure out what is going on. They're not our client facing people. Maybe some guys are good. [00:28:20] your in-house guys, goods or whatever. The majority of people are using this, right? The beauty of the system is: Do we have enough information that is captured? From the resident, the property manager that considers the needs of the owner to formulate the correct direction to the vendor so that they can show up with the resources that they need to fix the job the right time or show up educated about what they're there to fix. [00:28:41] Jason: So let's talk about this real quick. Like vendors should not be doing triage and why not? Like, like what are the obvious ramifications here? Well, vendors, that's like asking a surgeon if you need surgery, right? That's how he makes his money.  [00:28:55] "That's the solution is surgery. We should chop that out, like, let's cut that thing out and I get paid thousands and thousands of dollars."  [00:29:02] David: Or how about this one, Jason, on an owner's report. I see a cost for so many times you see a cost for a maintenance guy, "unable to resolve expert needed." well, why? Because the maintenance vendor was sent out to do the triage. [00:29:15] That's not fiduciary duty to the owner. If we had the right information, we could have avoided that one trip. So we have some really cool case studies. I'd love to show people that out of like 260 work orders, we have one right here, a client that signed up with us. And so out of that thing here let's see. [00:29:31] They completed 194 work orders. 17 unnecessary trips were canceled. Wow. Okay. 17 unnecessary trips and 15 of those work orders had an immediate reduction in price because they said that the wrong resource was assigned to that. So think about that. 17 different numbers.  [00:29:48] Jason: So if that, if they have an in-house maintenance team, you're decreasing your your cost deploying these texts, going out and doing stupid work, like significantly. If you are using third party vendors, then there's always an expense. If you're sending anybody out, unless you're like, go do a bid, or something like this, but that's costing the vendor, which they're going to be more frustrated with you. [00:30:09] So you're freeing that up or they're charging you for it. "Oh, well, if I go out, I charge, right?" Yeah.  [00:30:15] David: I'll give you an example. We just saved owner of a pad split property who wanted to replace the refrigerator. The request came in and they asked for three estimates, okay, to replace the refrigerator. [00:30:28] Okay, the suggestion came back that basically said in a nutshell, summarize this, "why are you sending three different appliance vendors who are all going to charge a trip fee to go look at a refrigerator when a Home Depot program should be used and the cost of refrigerator should be 860? To factor all those costs in, it would have been about 1, 400. I don't understand why you're doing this. Please explain, right?" Talk about fiduciary duty to the owner.  [00:30:51] Jason: This is why owners get frustrated and they're like, "I might as well just do it myself." [00:30:55] David: " Because I knew better. I would go to Home Depot. Everyone knows to order a refrigerator from Home Depot, right? Unless there's special circumstances." And now imagine this, and this is where we're going with this, Jason. At the end of each month, these owner reports go out to all these owners, and owners sit down and they call up the property manager, and we always hear people talking about this at every conference. [00:31:14] "Oh, I don't want to answer that phone call. I know what this is about, right?" And the property manager is scrambling at the end of the month to call the maintenance coordinator, dig into work order notes and justify why did this cost this much? "Explain this to me," right? So we have this really cool report that's coming out that basically, including in the property owner, It would let you know that, Hey, you had six jobs that were able to send a handyman this month. [00:31:38] Here's what's going on. You had two emergencies, two replacements, little asterisks that said, "Hey, this trip fee was 120. Why? Well, it required two people because there was a toilet that was being replaced on the third floor so they requested an extra hour of labor to be able to bring that toilet up because it was too like..." intimate details so that your owners are feeling like they're getting this like this whole transparency, unbelievable transparency, this report, the property manager doesn't have to waste at the end of the month, which I used to send away two to three days at the beginning of each month, just to answer phone calls and questions.  [00:32:12] Jason: Right. Yeah. It's like "why did it cost us much? Why?" [00:32:14] Like they can just see it.  [00:32:16] David: Yeah. "Why didn't you send Tom?" "Well, I did send Tom to snake the drain because it was clogged in the master bathroom. We set his limit at an hour. He used a 17, 25 foot power snake. And we said, if you can't get this done within an hour, then we need to send Roto Rooter." "Oh, I get that. You really did try to save me money in the beginning. Yeah. And Roto Rooter found that 35 feet down the thing was a clogged diaper or something like that." That's what owners need to understand. And to break that down in every work order is a tremendous strain on property managers and our system in V2 that's coming very quickly. [00:32:52] I was actually working on this morning. Those owner reports will be generated then if every month that explain intimate details about the thought process. and the costs and any decisions behind breaking it down into category for every maintenance work order type for their owners. Huge value. Imagine going to a client, a new client, and you're presenting against somebody else and they say, "Hey, how do you handle maintenance?" [00:33:14] And you pull that report out and you put it down on the table.  [00:33:16] Jason: You're like, "like this is the level of detail. Nobody else is doing this." The maintenance coordinator get on the phone every time and saying, "let me walk you through all these charges and why they happened and what did." And like, how many people listen to this right now? [00:33:31] I'm like, I know you're listening to this going, "if I never had to do that again, that would be the best thing ever. Ever. Like I've never had to have that uncomfortable conversation with the owner." Like it's all in there. It's all there. Like it makes sense.  [00:33:43] David: "Here's why we are your property manager. And here's the value that I'm giving to you in the transparency to maintenance." [00:33:50] That's a huge burden. It's a significant pain point. And we know this Jason, the first offense creates a little crack between the relationship. The second one, you're losing trust with your owner and they're beginning Googling "other property managers around me." The third one. You're just waiting for them to look and to go somewhere else. [00:34:07] So the relationship is falling apart. Right. And we are trying to know that  [00:34:11] Jason: You got a 600 door business in four years.  [00:34:14] David: Yes.  [00:34:15] Jason: Like, and so, and you have probably heard countless stories of people if they're switching companies, it's really rare that people switch companies. Usually things have to be pretty bad and maintenance that's in communication. [00:34:27] Those that's number one factors, communication and why people leave. And so this allows you to free up a massive amount of time so you can actually be on the phone with the people when you need to be on the phone and stop wasting time with all of these repeat calls, repeat requests, what's going on with this, and yeah, this would just save so much time. [00:34:44] David: Well, think about growth, Jason, right? So the three things that we're solving for, number one is we're protecting fiduciary duty to the owners, justifying maintenance costs and reducing the cost of expert in house maintenance coordination and making it scalable. Yeah. Okay. [00:34:58] So now if I can have an expert maintenance coordinator that I add to my office, there's a fixed cost to it. I can scale infinity and not have to worry about hiring and training and staffing and issues and all these problems in global, right? My fiduciary duty to my owners, I got reporting and transparency. [00:35:17] Maybe my property manager now, instead of being able to manage 250 doors, maybe they can manage 350 doors. Isn't that cool? Like that's where we're going with this stuff for sure.  [00:35:25] Jason: Yeah, it definitely would make a business as maintenance coordination, maybe infinitely scalable. So, okay. I know somebody that's listening, that's very detail oriented and their brain doesn't think like a spider web, like mine is going, "Hey, you guys never finished the example scenario because Jason derailed it." [00:35:43] And so we've got the maintenance request. It's come in.  [00:35:46] David: Yeah.  [00:35:47] Jason: So take, let's go back to that.  [00:35:49] David: Okay. Yeah. Maintenance request comes in the triage takes place. The information is gathered once the information is gathered, and it fills the requirements of what they believe is the right decision. [00:36:00] At that point, the scheduling takes place. Okay.  [00:36:03] Jason: Okay. So which pieces of Tulu doing?  [00:36:05] David: All of this.  [00:36:05] Jason: Okay. Okay.  [00:36:07] David: Okay. Okay. So then we're scheduling and then the work is completed. Quality pictures are received. If the resident is satisfaction, you have happiness received, vendors invoices received, and that's all uploaded into the system. [00:36:20] And then at that point, the property manager can pay the vendor directly if they have a great relationship and maybe they want to pay them in whatever way they do. A lot of people like paying their vendors, that's fine. Or they can reimburse the Tulu system. If they just want to pay one vendor for the rest of their life, and then Tulu will pay the vendor for them directly. [00:36:38] So it is from intake to vendor payment, all updates, all communications, all triaging, everything.  [00:36:46] Jason: Tulu does all of it. Does it all.  [00:36:48] David: It is your perfect maintenance coordinator. What we call the dream scenario. It has the ability to triage, troubleshoot, knowledgeable about vendor pricing, it's client facing and experience and client facing means that you can even set the parameter that said, "Hey, if anything is over my NTE, I would actually like you to generate your justification as to why think about this and send it out to my owner." Now imagine your owner getting this super email that's like, "Hey, listen, we have this problem. So the five to fancy, here's the steps that it took place to do."  [00:37:15] Jason: So like the amount that's in the agreement that says like anything under 500 in a single month, like we have a right to just take care of it. Right. Or something like this property managers having their agreements. Okay. So, so where do they need humans then? Where do humans come in all of this? [00:37:31] David: Humans need to be there to provide expert level, the same expert level triage that the system is providing, we need humans in there to make sure, first of all, it's accurate. There is a component of that, right? We're reviewing this and training it, learning it, but as we talked about before, humans need to be there. [00:37:47] We love that they have a great relationship because they're an extension of the office with their RTM, right? With their property manager and that RTM, they get to know each other. Humans are needed to talk to the residents and humans are needed for vendor support. Okay. Vendors don't want to call into a robot when their hand is in a sewer line from the field asking about, "Hey, I need help and direction. What's going on?" [00:38:07] They don't want to hear "press two if you're unhappy with this service," like they don't want to hear that. That's where humans come in.  [00:38:13] Jason: Got it. Okay. So what are some of the results that you're seeing when you're installing in this into businesses? Like what's shifting? Because I'm hearing some things like it's going to decrease the time you're spending on the phone with your owner. [00:38:25] So it's going to decrease the amount of time doing communication. You won't have to spend time doing triages. It sounds like a large piece of maintenance coordination is going to be taken care of. It sounds like staffing costs can be reduced. You tell me what are clients noticing once they get this installed over their previous systems of using a stack of tech tools to try and get their team to be able to handle this stuff? [00:38:47] David: I think in the beginning and I think that it's cool in our relationship is just to hear people come back after the first month and go, "I can't believe it. Like I went an entire month and like, I was not involved in maintenance the way that I feel that I needed to be to make sure that all these things were taken care of. And I'm finding myself with like 20 hours extra a month." And we're like "yes, go grow. Go add more doors. Go show greater value to your clients. Maybe call your client that you haven't been calling in a month because you've been so busy." Right. So, so those are really cool. I think from a cost perspective, they are appreciating. [00:39:24] And I'm believing that. Even people who had in house maintenance coordinators or VAs, good ones, always still feel that they needed to second check all the work. So even though you're giving to somebody, they never were able to detach themselves from me. [00:39:37] And now when they're seeing the justification and they're seeing the education behind it, they get this sense of like, I can let go. You know why? Because this system is doing maintenance exactly the way that I'm asking it to do maintenance. And they feel that now they're actually back in control. If that makes sense. Or they're giving it away, but they're actually feeling they're in more control, if I'm making sense there. That's one of the coolest things is that they feel now they have their pulse on every work order where versus before they have to dive into search. Now they know that their requirements are just laid over every work order. So those are some big ones that I'm seeing, especially for those people who really show their value to their owners in the fact that they say, "I'm involved in every work order, every job." That's a great value prop. It really is. Is it scalable? Is it burning you out? Is it pulling you away from other duties that you need to be? Are you spreading yourself too thin? [00:40:29] Great questions to ask if you have growth objectives, right? Scalable solution. And basically what we're doing is we're allowing the best in the business who are property managers who have created great relationships to duplicate themselves. And that's exciting for them to see. I think that they're like, "wow it's thinking like me."  [00:40:45] Jason: This really sounds like a serious competitive advantage for a property manager that adopts this over any other competitors that don't  [00:40:54] David: Jason, I'm going to a new client pitch and now I'm knowing that the guy next to me is sitting down showing him, "this is how I handle maintenance. This is how I'm keeping your cost down. This is the process. And that new report's coming in our V2. I was actually working some funnels that this morning. And if you're laying that down and then you're walking in behind them and the person says, "well, how do you handle maintenance?" [00:41:15] "Well, I personally call you on every maintenance ticket." We're witnessing the greatest generational movement of wealth and real estate properties from retiring baby boomers to the next generation to their kids who are all grown up in a technology world that are demanding transparency and reporting and it's just going to be the new standard, Jason, a hundred percent. [00:41:34] It's going to be the new standard for sure.  [00:41:36] Jason: Okay. We probably got somebody listening. They're super skeptical. They're like, there's no way. And they're going to throw us some crazy scenario that came up recently. And I'm sure you've heard some of these. So how would you address that? Like some sort of like, "well, what if it's like this and this," and it sounds like worst case scenario. [00:41:54] The AI just says, expert in the loop. Like it's, it raises his hand in some way and says, "Hey, I could use a human over here."  [00:42:00] David: Here's one that actually, as a guy who in my history, we had portfolios, like 30,000 properties. [00:42:06] So I've done probably over 500,000 work orders. In my career. Okay?  [00:42:10] Jason: More than most of the people that are probably listening to this. Yes.  [00:42:13] David: Yes. And as a result, just because of the size of the inventories that we used to manage the other day, a resident submitted a maintenance work order in and said, "my microwave is not working. And I assume it's because my gas stove is not turned on. And does my gas stove need to be turned on in order for the gas to flow up to my microwave?" Okay. True. True. Okay. All right. True maintenance work order. The the smart system picked that up and now imagine a VA facing that without any knowledge or an experience that's going to be an email to the property manager, a phone call to somebody, or maybe they make a mistake because they're 2000 miles away and they don't have any contacts and they sent out a plumber to go investigate. And the owner says, "why are you sending out a plumber for this?" Right? Right. Okay. The system picked up and it literally educated and trained. And it said that gas has no relevance whatsoever to a microwave solution. This is an incorrect thing, right? And that, when I saw that one, it makes mistakes. [00:43:04] Don't get me wrong. It's not perfect, but when I saw it pick up on that one, I said, man, I said, this is getting exciting that it picked up on that. So I would ask that person to come and just experience it and look at a little bit and understand guys, right? This is exciting. This is new. It's learning. [00:43:19] We're developing and it's improving daily. There's still a lot of human oversight. There's still a VAs that involved. We're getting expert maintenance coordination down to a price point that is affordable for everybody, scalable for everybody. And the biggest point at the end of the day, your owners are going to feel that every maintenance work order comes in, it's being handled by the best maintenance process in the industry. [00:43:39] And that's what you're going to be able to offer them as a property manager to compete against other competition you have in your market. And I think that's a good value prop. So.  [00:43:46] Jason: Yeah, definitely. So is there anything else related to turning maintenance into a profit center that we should cover? [00:43:52] David: Yeah the first step going into a profit center is realizing that the average person is paying between 16 to 28 dollars per door to manage their maintenance, right? If we get that down to the correct number, and I'd love to have anybody come through and we'll run the analytics for them and we'll give them a pricing model for that just off the bat, the first profit center that we're creating is what if I'm able to reduce that by 50 percent your cost, that's an immediate profit center, right? [00:44:16] That's profit center number one. And then we can look at profit centers number two, that like, all right, now I can add on if I want to add on to my markup or we have some other ways that we can show them how to. But the first profit center needs to be is what do you know how much you are paying per door to manage maintenance? [00:44:34] Take all of your staff, all of your VAs, all of your systems, all your after hour services, take all those pieces, add them all up and divide them by the number of doors that you have. So every door that you bring on, it's costing me $27 to handle maintenance emergency services. Okay. Know that number, and let's have a talk. [00:44:54] Jason: You got to build that calculator on your website.  [00:44:56] David: It's coming.  [00:44:57] Jason: A lot of calculators like that to help people calculate their cold lead marketing costs or whatever. And as soon as they fill that out, they're like, "okay, I'll sign up. Like this is ridiculous. What I've been doing?"  [00:45:06] David: We have that in product right now. [00:45:07] We have a couple of pieces. We did the finish on it, but that's coming out where people can just understand what they're paying per door. But give us a call up. We'll walk you through the exercise. We'll show you what you're costing. Think about that as your first profit center, Jason. And then we can talk about other ones and we help give some people some advice still. [00:45:22] Jason: So David, you have a lot of knowledge and experience. How much of your knowledge and experience has gone into bringing this AI up to understanding what you know?  [00:45:32] David: I've been working on this for 12 years. Of putting the data and the learnings. And again, I've been fortunate guys where it was just my path. [00:45:39] It was my journey through this, where I've got to work for some huge outfits. I had my own consulting company for seven years. I was working with some of the biggest SFR groups in the nation, guys with 10,000-20,000 doors. And I'm just fortunate to understand the amount of data. So, I've put my blood, sweat and tears into this, but at the core of that Jason, my blood, sweat, and tears. [00:46:00] Is that, 15 years ago when I was brand new in this property management space, I had a broker tell me one time that after the sale of the property is done, the success of the owner is no longer your business or mine. And it's up to them. The sale is done. And they told me that when they walked away and that bothered me to this day, it bothered me that the fiduciary duty that individuals are giving to us to manage in some cases, millions of dollars of their money and assets and portfolios, right? And what type of products or services are we demanding of this industry? That we would demand of, let's say if I gave 50,000 to my broker to invest in the stock market for me, what type of services and technology and platforms am I demanding of that person, education, schooling, name brands, right? [00:46:45] But yet, are we demanding that same of us in our fiduciary duty to somebody that's giving over maybe their retirement to us their kids', future, college... you hear all these people, "why'd you get into real estate?" "I want to create a college fund for my kids." And after two years, the guy's like, "this is not what I signed up for. This is the worst mistake I ever made. And I'm backing out of, buying more properties because of challenges," right? That's what I'm driven by. And I've always been driven by that. It's my curse. And so I'd have to say there's a hundred percent of me in this Jason, for sure.  [00:47:13] Jason: Awesome. And it, this will outlive you like AI doesn't die. [00:47:17] And this is this not to be grim, but this is the concern. Like anybody has when they're signing up for a business, they're like, all right, "how much is reliant on just this one person? How much is reliant on that key person I'm interacting with?" Right. And the AI is not a person. Right? [00:47:34] And so, yeah, so that's really fascinating to think about. Like you've built all that into it and it has immediate, instant expertise. It's not like, "Hey, well, let me go call Tom and let me go check with Fred or let me..." like all the data it has, it's there and it's instant. [00:47:54] David: What's the difference between an emergency of a hot water tank that's leaking in a basement with a permeable stone floor versus emergency hot water tank that's located in the utility closet on the first floor? [00:48:04] One doesn't have to necessarily require a person to go out because there's no damage to prevent with water leaking down there. But the other one is leaking onto the floor and damaging your drywall. So these conditions have to be taking place. Locations of hot water tanks, like there's, I can nerd out in this and I'd love to sit down with anybody and drink beers and talk about all the millions of different maintenance things that I ran through. [00:48:24] But at the end of the day, when you're able to show your owner, "we acted as an expert." That's the guy that's going to say to his buddy when they're just having a drink, "call these guys up to manage your property because they're an expert in the thing." And that's what we're trying to bring to the industry for sure. [00:48:37] Jason: So this brings a level of expertise that the business owner, the property manager, the maintenance coordinator, and certainly the VA's just would not possess.  [00:48:48] David: You're talking 15 years, over 500,000 work orders worth of data points, learning and understanding from commercial, multifamily, single family across the board, best practices. [00:49:01] And it's for somebody who wants to imagine now a person can start a property management company tomorrow onboard Tulu. And they're immediately a veteran in the maintenance industry. Immediately.  [00:49:12] Yeah. No learning curve. You're operating and executing as the best maintenance coordinator in the industry starting tomorrow. [00:49:19] That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. Really cool.  [00:49:22] Jason: This is really, it's really wild. So now my brain's like, how can I get experts, how can I clone Tulu, but make an operator version of Tulu for running a property managed business. Or I can make it.  [00:49:32] David: Yeah there's, there, there are offshoots on this. [00:49:34] I would have to say, and I do want to tell anybody that in this space that we always say that property managers are safe because you know what the property managers do a great job of doing. You guys do a really good job at building relationships and creating value in your local markets. [00:49:46] Right. Focus on that. Don't get pulled into maintenance, right? Maintenance and that stuff can be automated. There are best practices. Don't struggle to have to be an expert there. Show your value and the resources and tools that you have. Lower your overhead. Produce better results. Be at networking events. [00:50:03] Shake more hands. Talk to more people. Sell more homes. Add more doors. Shine where you shine. Brokers shine when they're out in front of people shaking hands and having expensive salads over a nice glass of chardonnay and closing deals, right? Let us flip the toilets and do it well for you. [00:50:18] That's what I say.  [00:50:19] Jason: Awesome. Okay, cool. David, if they're interested in Getting started. How do they find out about Tulu? You can go right to our website  [00:50:26] David: at trytulu. com. And if anybody wants to email me personally, david.norman.trytulu.Com. I'll connect you with our sales team and set you up on a personal demo. I'll walk you through it. I promise I won't bring so much energy. I'm an energy guy. It's just my calling this space to be in the maintenance and I love to doing what we're doing and seeing owners go "yes!" Seeing property managers go "yes!" And we're not trying to replace anybody. We're just trying to help people honor their fiduciary duty to their owners. And that's my mission. That's what I'm driven by.  [00:50:56] Jason: Yeah. Fantastic. So try Tulu, T U L U. Dot com.  [00:51:02] David: Yeah.  [00:51:02] Jason: All right. Try it out.  [00:51:04] David: All right.  [00:51:04] Jason: David, thanks for coming on the DoorGrowShow podcast. Appreciate you.  [00:51:08] David: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Jason. Always great. Looking forward to the show. Until next time.  [00:51:11] Jason: All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur and you are wanting to add doors, you get maintenance off loaded, off your plate, and you want to focus on growth and figuring out how to get more doors, you want to join the DoorGrow mastermind, our growth accelerator is all about that. [00:51:29] We are really good at optimizing businesses for growth using our rapid revamp class, where we clean up quickly, all of the front end stuff that is causing you to like kill trust and leaking trust and preventing deals. And then we give you the right strategies. We've got at least seven different growth engines that we can help build into your business that you can stack that will feed you unlimited leads without having to spend any money on advertising or marketing expense. [00:51:55] You just need people and it actually decreases the amount of time those people will spend If they're following working on the warm leads and the stuff that we would get you to do instead of cold leads, which take a lot more time. So we also have our super system level of our mastermind. This is where we're focused on ops, operations, helping your operator. That key person that's going to run the entire business for you, Mr. or Mrs. Visionary Entrepreneur, and they will help take your business to the next level. We can coach and support your operators, your BDMs, your salespeople, or you, the business owner to make this business infinitely scalable so that you can go to the next level and add a lot of doors. So reach out to us, let us assess your situation and see if we can help. [00:52

Acts 2:36-37 In his Pentecost sermon, Peter carefully explained to his Jewish audience that what had happened to Jesus had been in fulfilment of God's plans. He had been very respectful
of their patriarch King David but pointed out that, despite all his greatness, David had not risen from death, unlike Jesus, whom they had had a hand in crucifying. Peter's sharp challenge pierced them to the heart and they wanted to know what to do in response. I wonder whether you can think of a moment when you were pierced to the heart. It's agonising when you know that you cannot avoid the challenge that has been put to you.
It reminds me of the time when King David was confronted by the prophet Nathan. David was feeling very pleased with himself. He believed he had got away with his adultery with Bathsheba. He had now married her, having successfully arranged the murder of her husband. But Nathan bravely confronted David by telling him the story of a rich man who had cruelly prepared a meal for a visitor by killing not one of his many sheep, but the much-loved lamb that was the family pet of a very poor family. David seethed with anger and was determined that the rich man should die and make generous restitution to the abused family. Nathan said to David: “You are the man!” (2 Samuel 12:7). Ouch. David couldn't dodge the challenge. He had to admit that he had done wrong and come before God in repentance. It's not easy to be challenged, but when we are confronted by the truth it is vital that we take action. Question When have you been deeply challenged by someone else's words and what action did you take? Prayer Lord God, thank you for loving me so much that you confront me with the truth about myself. Amen

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT The health care sector has long struck me as having environments and dynamics that would benefit a lot from using digital signage technology. Accurate information is critically important, and things change quickly and often - in ways that make paper and dry erase marker board solutions seem antiquated and silly. But it is a tough sector to work in and crack - because of the layers of bureaucracy, tight regulations and the simple reality that medical facilities go up over several years, not months. People often talk about the digital signage solution sales cycle being something like 18 months on average. With healthcare, it can be double or triple that. The other challenge is that it is highly specialized and there are well-established companies referred to as patient engagement providers. So any digital signage software or solutions company thinking about going after health care business will be competing with companies that already know the industry and its technologies, like medical records, and have very established ties. LG has been active in the healthcare sector for decades, and sells specific displays and a platform used by patient engagement providers that the electronics giant has as business partners. I had a really insightful chat with Tom Mottlau, LG's director of healthcare sales. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT David: Tom, thank you for joining me. Can you give me a rundown of what your role is at LG?  Tom Mottlau: I am the Director of Healthcare Sales for LG. I've been in this role for some time now; I joined the company in 1999 and have been selling quite a bit into the patient room for some time.  David: Has most of your focus through those years all been on healthcare? Tom Mottlau: Well, actually, when I started, I was a trainer when we were going through the digital rollout when we were bringing high-definition television into living rooms. My house was actually the beta site for WXIA for a time there until we got our language codes right. But soon after, I moved over to the commercial side and healthcare, around 2001-2002.  David: Oh, wow. So yeah, you've been at it a long time then. Much has changed!  Tom Mottlau: Yes, sir.  David: And I guess in some cases, nothing has changed.  Tom Mottlau: Yep. David: Healthcare is an interesting vertical market for me because it seems so opportune, but I tend to think it's both terrifying and very grinding in that they're quite often very large institutions, sometimes government-associated or university-associated, and very few things happen quickly. Is that a fair assessment?  Tom Mottlau: Absolutely. There's a lot of oversight in the patient room. It's a very litigation-rich environment, and so there's a bit of bureaucracy to cut through to make sure that you're bringing in something that's both safe for patients and protects their privacy but also performs a useful function.  David: I guess the other big challenge is the build-time. You can get word of an opportunity for a medical center that's going up in a particular city, and realistically, it's probably 5-7 years out before it actually opens its doors, right? Tom Mottlau: That's true. Not only that but very often, capital projects go through a gestation period that can be a year or two from the time you actually start talking about the opportunity.  David: And when it comes to patient engagement displays and related displays around the patient care areas, is that something that engineers and architects scheme in early on, or is it something that we start talking about 3-4 years into the design and build process?  Tom Mottlau: Well, the part that's schemed in is often what size displays we're going to need. So, for example, if somebody is looking to deploy maybe a two-screen approach or a large-format approach, that's the type of thing that is discussed early on, but then when they come up on trying to decide between the patient engagement providers in the market, they do their full assessment at that time because things evolve and also needs change in that whole period that may take a couple of years you may go as we did from an environment that absolutely wanted no cameras to an environment that kind of wanted cameras after COVID. You know, so things change. So they're constantly having those discussions.  David: Why switch to wanting cameras because of COVID?  Tom Mottlau: Really, because the hospitals were locked down. You couldn't go in and see your loved one. There was a thought that if we could limit the in-person contact, maybe we could save lives, and so there was a lot of thought around using technology to overcome the challenges of contagion, and so there was even funding dedicated towards it and a number of companies focused on it  David: That's interesting because I wondered whether, in the healthcare sector, business opportunities just flat dried up because the organizations were so focused on dealing with COVID or whether it actually opened up new opportunities or diverted budgets to things that maybe weren't thought about before, like video? Tom Mottlau: True, I mean, the video focus was definitely because of COVID, but then again, you had facilities where all of their outpatient procedures had dried up. So they were strained from a budget standpoint, and so they had to be very picky about where they spent their dollars.  Now the equipment is in the patient room, but at the end of the day, we're still going to get the same flow of patients. People don't choose when to be sick. If it's gonna be either the same or higher because of those with COVID, so they still need to supply those rooms with displays, even though they were going through a crisis, they still had to budget and still had to go through their day-to-day buying of that product.  David: Is this a specialty application and solution as opposed to something that a more generic digital signage, proAV company could offer? My gut tells me that in order to be successful, you really need to know the healthcare environment. You can't just say, we've got these screens, we've got the software, what do you need?  Tom Mottlau: Yeah, that's a very good question. Everything we do on our end is driven by VOC (voice of customer). We partner with the top patient engagement providers in the country. There are a handful that are what we call tier one. We actually provide them with products that they vet out before we go into production.  We go to them to ask them, what do you need? What products do you need for that patient? I mean, and that's where the patient engagement boards, the idea of patient engagement boards came from was we had to provide them a display that met, at the time, 60065 UL, which is now 62368-1, so that they can meet NFPA 99 fire code.  David: I love it when you talk dirty. Tom Mottlau: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there that.  David: What the hell is he talking about?  Tom Mottlau: Yeah, I know enough to be dangerous. Basically, what it boils down to is we want to make sure that our products are vetted by a third party. UL is considered a respectable testing agency, and that's why you find most electronics are vetted by them and so they test them in the patient room. It's a high-oxygen environment with folks who are debilitated and life-sustaining equipment so the product has to be tested.  We knew that we had to provide a product for our SIs that would meet those specs as well as other specs that they had like they wanted something that could be POE-powered because it takes an act of Congress to add a 110-amp outlet to a patient room. It's just a lot of bureaucracy for that. So we decided to roll out two units: one of 32, which is POE, and one that's 43. Taking all those things I just mentioned into consideration, as well as things like lighting.  Folks didn't want a big night light so we had to spend a little extra attention on the ambient light sensor and that type of thing. This is our first offering. David: So for doofuses like me who don't spend a lot of time thinking about underwriter lab, certifications, and so on, just about any monitor, well, I assume any monitor that is marketed by credible companies in North America is UL-certified, but these are different grades of UL, I'm guessing?  Tom Mottlau: They are. Going back in the day of CRTs, if you take it all the way back then when you put a product into a room that has a high-powered cathode ray tube and there's oxygen floating around, safety is always of concern. So, going way back, probably driven by product liability and that type of thing. We all wanted to produce a safe product, and that's why we turned to those companies. The way that works is we design a product, we throw it over to them, and they come back and say, okay, this is great, but you got to change this, and this could be anything. And then we go back and forth until we arrive at a product that's safe for that environment, with that low level of oxygen, with everything else into consideration in that room.  David: Is it different when you get out into the hallways and the nursing stations and so on? Do you still need that level, like within a certain proximity of oxygen or other gases, do you need to have that?  Tom Mottlau: It depends on the facility's tolerance because there is no federal law per se, and it could vary based on how they feel about it. I know that Florida tends to be very strict, but as a company, we had to find a place to draw that line, like where can we be safe and provide general products and where can we provide something that specialized?  And that's usually oxygenated patient room is usually the guideline. If there's oxygen in the walls and that type of thing, that's usually the guideline and the use of a pillow speaker. Outside into the hallways, not so much, but it depends on the facility. We just lay out the facts and let them decide. We sell both.  David: Is it a big additional cost to have that additional protection or whatever you want to call it, the engineering aspects?  Tom Mottlau: Yes.  David: So it's not like 10 percent more; it can be quite a bit more? Tom Mottlau: I'm not sure of the percentage, but there's a noticeable amount. Keep in mind it's typically not just achieving those ratings; it's some of the other design aspects that go into it. I mean, the fact that you have pillow speaker circuitry to begin with, there's a cost basis for that. There's a cost basis for maintaining an installer menu of 117+ items. There's a cost basis for maintaining a Pro:Centric webOS platform. You do tend to find it because of those things, not just any one of them, but because of all of them collectively, yeah, the cost is higher. I would also say that the warranties tend to be more encompassing. It's not like you have to drive it down to Ted's TV. Somebody comes and actually remedies on-site. So yeah, all of that carries a cost basis. That's why you're paying for that value.  David: You mentioned that you sell or partner with patient engagement providers. Could you describe what those companies do and offer? Tom Mottlau: Yeah, and there's a number of them. Really, just to be objective, I'll give you some of the tier ones, the ones that have taken our product over the years and tested and provided back, and the ones that have participated in our development summit. I'll touch on that in a moment after this. So companies like Aceso, you have Uniguest who were part of TVR who offers the pCare solutions. You have Get Well, Sonify, those types of companies; they've been at this for years, and as I mentioned, we have a development summit where we, for years, have piled these guys on a plane. The CTOs went off to Korea and the way I describe it is we all come into a room, and I say, we're about to enter Festivus. We want you to tell us all the ways we've disappointed you with our platform, and we sit in that room, we get tomatoes thrown at us, and then we make changes to the platform to accommodate what they need. And then that way, they're confident that they're deploying a product that we've done all we can to improve the functionality of their patient engagement systems. After all, we're a platform provider, which is what we are.  David: When you define patient engagement, what would be the technology mix that you would typically find in a modernized or newly opened patient care area? Tom Mottlau: So that would be going back years ago. I guess it started more with patient education. If Mrs. Jones is having a procedure on her kidney, they want her to be educated on what she can eat or not eat, so they found a way to bring that patient education to the patient room over the TVs. But then they also wanted to confirm she watched it, and then it went on from there.  It's not only the entertainment, but it's also things that help improve workflows, maybe even the filling out of surveys and whatnot on the platform, Being able to order your culinary, just knowing who your doctor is, questions, educational videos, all of those things and then link up with EMR. David: What's that?  Tom Mottlau: Electronic medical records. Over the years, healthcare has wanted to move away from paper, to put it very simply. They didn't want somebody's vitals in different aspects of their health stored on a hand-scribbled note in several different doctor's offices. So there's been an effort to create electronic medical records, and now that has kind of been something that our patient engagement providers have tied into those solutions into the group.  David: So, is the hub, so to speak, the visual hub in a patient care room just a TV, or is there other display technology in there, almost like a status board that tells them who their primary provider is and all the other stuff?  Tom Mottlau: So it started as the smart TV, the Pro:Centric webOS smart TV. But then, as time went on, we kept getting those requests for, say, a vertically mounted solution, where somebody can actually walk in the room, see who their doctor is, see who their nurse is, maybe the physician can come in and understand certain vitals of the patient, and so that's why we developed those patient engagement boards that separately. They started out as non-touch upon request, we went with the consensus, and the consensus was we really need controlled information. We don't want to; we've had enough issues with dry-erase boards. We want something where there's more control in entering that information, and interesting enough, we're now getting the opposite demand. We're getting demand now to incorporate touch on the future models, and that's how things start. As you know, to your point earlier, folks are initially hesitant to breach any type of rules with all the bureaucracy. Now, once they cut through all that and feel comfortable with a start, they're willing to explore more technologies within those rooms. That's why we always start out with one, and then over the years, it evolves.  David: I assume that there's a bit of a battle, but it takes some work to get at least some of the medical care facilities to budget and approve these patient engagement displays or status displays just because there's an additional cost. It's different from the way they've always done things, and it involves integration with, as you said, the EMR records and all that stuff. So, is there a lot of work to talk them into it?  Tom Mottlau: Well, you have to look at us like consultants, where we avoid just talking folks into things. Really, what it has to do with is going back to VOC, voice of the customer, the way we were doing this years ago or just re-upping until these boards were launched was to provide a larger format, and ESIs were dividing up the screen. That was the way we always recommended. But then, once we started getting that VOC, they were coming to us saying, well, we need to get these other displays in the room. You know, certain facilities were saying, Hey, we absolutely need this, and we were saying, well, we don't want to put something that's not rated for that room. Then we realized we had to really start developing a product that suits that app, that environment, and so our job is to make folks aware of what we have and let them decide which path they're going to take because, to be honest, there are two different ways of approaching it. You can use one screen of 75”, divide it, or have two screens like Moffitt did. Moffitt added the patient engagement boards, which is what they wanted.  David: I have the benefit, at least so far, of being kind of at retirement age and spending very little time, thank God, in any kind of patient care facility. Maybe that'll change. Hopefully not.  But when I have, I've still seen dry-erase marker boards at the nursing stations, in rooms, in hallways, and everywhere else. Why is it still like that? Why haven't they cut over? Is it still the prevalent way of doing things, or are you seeing quite a bit of adoption of these technologies? Tom Mottlau: Well, it is, I would say, just because we're very early in all this. That is the prevalent way, no doubt.  It's really those tech-forward, future-forward facilities that are wanting to kind of go beyond that and not only that, there's a lot of facilities that want to bring all that in and, maybe just the nature of that facility is a lot more conservative, and we have to respect that. Because ultimately they're having to maintain it. We wouldn't want to give somebody something that they can't maintain or not have the budget for. I mean, at the end of the day, they're going to come back to us, and whether or not they trust us is going to be based upon whether we advise them correctly or incorrectly. If we advise them incorrectly, they're not going to trust us. They're not going to buy from us ten years from now.  David: For your business partners, the companies that are developing patient engagement solutions, how difficult is it to work with their patient record systems, building ops systems, and so on to make these dynamic displays truly dynamic? Is it a big chore, or is there enough commonality that they can make that happen relatively quickly? Tom Mottlau: That's a very good question, and that's exactly why we're very careful about who's tier one and who we may advise folks to approach. Those companies I mentioned earlier are very skilled at what they do, and so they're taking our product as one piece of an entire system that involves many other components, and I have full faith in their ability to do that because we sit in on those meetings.  Once a year, we hear feedback, we hear positive feedback from facilities. We see it but it really couldn't happen without those partners, I would say. We made that choice years ago to be that platform provider that supports those partners and doesn't compete with them. In hindsight, I think that was a great choice because it provides more options to the market utilizing our platform.  David: Well, and being sector experts in everything that LG tries to touch would be nightmarish. If you're far better off, I suspect I will be with partners who wake up in the morning thinking about that stuff. Tom Mottlau: Yeah. I mean, we know our core competencies. We're never going to bite off more than we can chew. Now granted, we understand more and more these days, there's a lot of development supporting things like telehealth, patient engagement, EMR and whatnot. But we're also going to make sure that at the end of the day, we're tying in the right folks to provide the best solution we can to patients. David: How much discussion has to happen around network security and operating system security?  I mean, if you're running these on smart TVs, they're then running web OS, which is probably to the medical facility's I.T. team or not terribly familiar to them.  Tom Mottlau: Yeah, that's a very good question. Facilities, hospitals, and anything that involves network security bring them an acute case of indigestion, more so than other areas in the business world. So these folks, a lot of times, there's exhaustive paperwork whenever you have something that links up to the internet or something that's going to open up those vulnerabilities. So, Pro:Centric webOS is actually a walled garden. It is not something that is easily hacked when you have a walled garden approach and something that's controlled with a local server. That's why we took that approach. Now, we can offer them a VPN if there is something that they want to do externally, but these systems were decided upon years ago and built with security in mind because we knew we were going to deploy in very sensitive commercial environments. And so not so much a concern. You don't need to pull our TV out and link up with some foreign server as you might with a laptop that you buy that demands updates. It's not anything like that because, of course, that would open us up to vulnerability. So we don't take that approach. It's typically a local server and there is the ability to do some control of the server if you want a VPN, but other than that, there is no access.  David: Do you touch on other areas of what we would know as digital signage within a medical facility?  Like I'm thinking of wayfinding, directories, donor recognition, video walls, and those sorts of things. Tom Mottlau: Absolutely. I mean, we see everything. Wayfinding needs have been for years and years now, and those are only expanding. and we start to see some that require outdoor displays for wave finding. So we do have solutions for that.  Beyond displays, we actually have robots now that we're testing in medical facilities and have had a couple of certifications on some of those. David: What would they do?  Tom Mottlau: Well, the robots would be used primarily to deliver some type of nonsensitive product. I know there's some work down the road, or let's just say there's some demand for medication delivery.  But obviously, LG's approach to any demand like that is to vet it out and make sure we're designing it properly. Then, we can make announcements later on about that type of stuff. For now, we're taking those same robots that we're currently using, say, in the hotel industry, and we're getting demand for that type of technology to be used in a medical facility.  David: So surgical masks or some sort of cleaning solutions or whatever that need to be brought up to a certain area, you could send in orderly, but staffing may be tight and so you get a robot to do it. Tom Mottlau: Absolutely. And that is a very liquid situation. There's a lot of focus and a lot of development. I'm sure there'll be a lot to announce on that front, but it's all very fluid, and it's all finding its way into that environment with our company.  All these future-forward needs, not only with the robots but EV chargers for the vast amount of electric vehicles, we find ourselves involved in discussions on all these fronts with our medical facilities these days.  David: It's interesting. Obviously, AI is going to have a role in all kinds of aspects of medical research and diagnosis and all those super important things.  But I suspect there's probably a role as well, right down at the lobby level of a hospital, where somebody comes in where English isn't their first language, and they need to find the oncology clinic or whatever, and there's no translator available. If you can use AI to guide them, that would be very helpful and powerful.  Tom Mottlau: Let me write that down as a product idea. Actually, AI is something that is discussed in the company, I would say, on a weekly basis, and again, I'm sure there'll be plenty to showcase in the future. But yes, I'd say we have a good head start in that area that we're exploring different use cases in the medical environment.  David: It's interesting. I write about digital signage every day and look at emerging markets, and I've been saying that healthcare seems like a greenfield opportunity for a lot of companies, but based on this conversation, I would say it is, and it isn't because if you are a more generalized digital signage software platform, yes, you could theoretically do a lot of what's required, but there's so much insight and experience and business ties that you really need to compete with these patient engagement providers, and I think it would be awfully tough for just a more generalized company to crack, wouldn't it?  Tom Mottlau: I believe so. I mean, we've seen many come and go. You know, we have certain terms internally, like the medicine show, Wizard of Oz. there's a lot out there; you really just have to vet them out to see who's legit and who isn't, and I'm sure there are some perfectly legitimate companies that we haven't worked with yet, probably in areas outside of patient education we, we have these discussions every week, and it's, it can be difficult because there are companies that you might not have heard of and you're always trying to assess, how valid is this? And, yeah, that's a tough one.  David: Last question. Is there a next big thing that you expect to emerge with patient engagement over the next couple of years, two-three years that you can talk about?  Tom Mottlau: You hit the nail on the head, AI. But you know, keep in mind that's something in relative terms. It has been relatively just the last few years, and it has been something that's come up a lot. It seems there's a five-year span where something is a focus going way back, it was going from analog to digital.  When I first came here, it was going from wood-clad CRT televisions to flat panels, and now we have OLED right in front of us. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of progression in this market. And I would say AI is one of them, and Telehealth is another; I guess we'll find out for sure which one sticks that always happens that way, but we don't ignore them.  David: Yeah, certainly, I think AI is one of those foundational things. It's kind of like networking. It's going to be fundamental. It's not a passing fancy or something that'll be used for five years and then move on to something else. Tom Mottlau: Yeah, true. But then again, also, it's kind of like when everybody was talking about, okay, we're not going to pull RF cable that went on for years and years because they were all going to pull CAT5, and then next thing, you know, they're saying, well, we have to go back and add CAT5 because they got ahead of themselves, right? So I think the challenge for any company is nobody wants to develop the next Betamax. Everybody wants to develop something that's going to be longstanding and useful, and so it's incumbent upon us to vet out those different solutions and actually see real practical ways of using it in the patient room and trusting our partners and watching them grow. A lot of times, they're the test beds, and so that's the benefit of our approach.  By providing that platform and supporting those partners, we get to see which tree is really going to take off.  David: Betamax, you just showed your age.  Tom Mottlau: Yes, sir. That made eight tracks, right?  David: For the kiddies listening, that's VCRs. All right. Thanks, Tom. That was terrific.  Tom Mottlau: Thank you very much, sir.  David: Nice to speak with you. 

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT There is a lot of glass in public and commercial spaces, and the pro AV and digital signage industries have been applying all kinds of technologies to turn things like windows and dividers into part-time or full-time displays. In most cases, those jobs have come with compromises. There are films that might start curling at the corners, or discolouring. Mesh systems that look pretty good from the front, but terrible from the rear. And most recently, super-thin foils that need to be adhered to one side of glass panes. So what if the LED display was actually part of architectural-grade glass? That's the premise of a company called Clear Motion Glass - a Pennsylvania-based technology start-up that comes at the business from the angle of commercial glass. Clear Motion is a spin-out from William Penn Performance Glass, which has for many years been making and supplying laminated and tempered glass for commercial buildings. Unlike other products on the market, Clear Motion's LED displays are sandwiched inside sheets of laminated safety glass - so when a building goes up or is being retrofitted, the glass panels that go in are also active, highly-transparent displays. I had a good chat with Todd Stahl, a glass industry veteran who runs both the established and start-up businesses. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT David: Todd, thank you for joining me.  Todd Stahl: Hey Dave. Yeah, I appreciate you having us on. It's going to be a pleasure to talk about some LED glass with you.  David: Yeah, tell me about the company. I saw you guys at DSE back in December. You were busy almost the whole time. So I didn't really have the time or the chance to have any kind of a detailed LED conversation, but I know that the company has not been around that long, but it's grown out of a pretty well-established “performance glass company.” Todd Stahl: Yeah. A little bit about the history there. So, at Clear Motion Glass, we're making the LEDs inside of the glass. I came across the LED glass around June of 2022, so I've had it for just about two years. The parent company is William Penn Performance Glass, and that's another company I started in 2011. We deal with high-end architectural Glass.  So, a cliffnote version: We go to the top architects in the country, and they're like, “Hey, who are you designing for?” And they'll say to us, “Hey, we want some really cool glass to go in the elevators for the Empire State Building.” So we got into the architectural space with glass, and actually, we'll William Penn, who was just voted one of the top 50 glass producers in North of North America. So something that we're definitely pretty proud of around here.  Then I came across LED glass around 2022, I thought it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen put inside a glass, and I wanted to be a part of it. David: So when you say you came across it, what do you mean by that?  Todd Stahl: So, there's another product in glass, another glass product that's been around, I'm going to say right around since 2000. It's a glass that goes frosted to clear from the turn of a switch, Switchable glass. So there's a company called Smart Film Blinds, and they were an applied film company that would actually take that, what we would call switch glass, but they just took the film and applied it to existing glass, and it was owned by Alan and Tracy Ackerman, and then they had this connection with LED Glass they weren't quite sure what to do with it. They knew it was really cool. And it had a chance to be really something big, but they were more of a film company, and then he and I got introduced, through a need that we had for some smart film, the switchable film, and then eventually we had a partnership for a while. Then we decided basically that I'll stick with the glass part, what I'm best at, and he'll stick with the film part, which was what they were best with. But that's how I got introduced to it, right around two years ago.  David: What you're marketing now is Clear Motion Glass. Is that your own product or are you reselling somebody else's manufactured product?  Todd Stahl: We have partners overseas, such as a company called Filmbase. That's where we get the actual LED grid or LED mesh. We bring that to my facility in York, Pennsylvania, which is in the south-central Pennsylvania area, we're 20 minutes south of Hershey, close to Harrisburg, and then we actually fabricate everything as a finished panel here. So we'll make the glass, we'll get the interlayer components. We have a laminating machine that actually works by pulling a vacuum and heating it up to certain temperatures. After that, it comes out, and we have a clear LED glass display.  David: So laminated glass is something that's been around forever. So this is just basically sandwiching the mesh in between sheets of laminated glass?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. We're definitely making a sandwich component. We start with a piece of glass, say that's your component number one. Then, we start with the inner layer materials.  In a case like this, we use a couple of different techniques, but we use EVA, which is ethyl vinyl acetate. Then we'll actually put the LED mesh grid on top of that, then we put another piece of EVA, then we go with the finished component of the sandwich, another piece of glass, and we stick them in an oven, we run a certain cycle, and about four hours later, we have a laminated piece of glass, exactly how you described. It's a sandwich makeup for sure.  David: Was there a lot of R&D work involved in it? Because I would imagine if you're putting an LED mesh inside of an oven, then going to a very high temperature and all that, I'm thinking if I didn't know much about this stuff, I'd be wondering, what's all that heat going to do to this thing? Todd Stahl: Yeah. You know, we have to make sure that it can withstand certain temperatures, obviously, and if you don't heat, and just in general, if you don't get laminated glass hot enough, it doesn't bond, it does not bond correctly. What you have to achieve is cross-linking and cross-linking is basically the interlayer material to the glass itself, and that happens at a temperature of around 110 degrees Celsius, so it's not getting hot enough to cook a Turkey in there, so we're not really dealing with extremes. I think a lot of people might think when you're actually making glass out of what we call a batch, you know that's where the glass is heated up to 2000 degrees and you're really dealing with some extreme temperatures. It's not quite the same extremes at all when you're dealing with laminated glass.  David: So tell me what performance glass is, and what high-end performance glass is because I don't know the glass world terribly well.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, sure. So, so what William Penn performance glass is the performance name kind of all started because our glass looks great and it, but it's an all safety rated glass. So that's kind of the performance part of the glass. So, if you're looking at our glass, say that's used for glass handrails, that's a very specific glass that's chosen to withstand the certain load requirements of a structural application, and typically most of our handrails are tempered, and laminated glass. So there are two ways on this planet to make a piece of glass safety-rated. You either temper it or you laminate it. We happen to do both of those things in a lot of our projects, and it's kind of funny like obviously safety-rated glass is strong, but the only thing that's really taken into consideration when you're referring to safety glass are you automatically assume it's going to break and what happens when it breaks, right? So with tempered glass, you put a lot of stress on the glass itself through a heating and cooling process, and whenever that glass breaks, it breaks into small panels that would not be able to potentially cause a life-threatening wound, and then you have the exact opposite with laminated where if a rock hits your car, if that's ever happened to you the rock doesn't come through and the pieces of the glass, the shards don't come through, they stay together. So you got those two things to the requirements when you're thinking about what is safety rated glass.  David: With the Clear Motion product, is it an indoor product only, an outdoor facing product, or what are the use cases?  Todd Stahl: So what's really cool about our LED glass is that almost wherever you're using architectural glass right now, you can now use our LED displays. So it can be used in exterior applications, a building facade, glass canopies, and railings that may be exterior. All of the components are kind of encapsulated inside that glass, and that glass is making a nice, really safe, cozy home for the LED display inside of it. David: And it's bright enough that it can be on a glass curtain wall like an auto dealer?  Todd Stahl: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that's one of the really cool applications for it. In fact, you had mentioned at the trade show and boy, were we busy? I think I was just talking about this yesterday. We scanned around 450 people in that short show. Our voices were a little strained by the end of the evening. So, the brightness of our display at the show, Dave, was only running around 4%, and I thought that was one of the more amazing things about the product because it was still kind of bright at 4%. Later we started bringing that up because a few potential clients wanted to see it at 50-60% brightness. So yeah, you can totally use this as an exterior sign and get whatever brightness you need. I think some of the products are well over 10,000 nits depending on the needs, and I think one actually lasted up to 15,000 nits, so plenty bright for the outside.  David: Yeah, once you get to 3,500, you're good.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, exactly. David: On transparency. I see on your website that it says there is up to 90 percent transparency.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so when you get to some of the pixel pitches that are viewed from say, a distance of around a hundred feet, I think the pixel pitch at a 20, I believe that one may allow up to 90 percent of light to come through. It's really cool. I mean, you have this really great display, and then you're just getting all this, and you're not cutting off any spaces so if you have a traditional LED display, you can only view that from one side and I think that's kind of what's really amazing about this product and a lot of times when you're looking at the product, you don't even realize that it's transparent until the image would say it's rotating from one image to the next. And you're like, Oh, wow, that's clear, there are people behind there. So I think, yeah, it's really cool in that application.  David: From what I saw, because it's this mesh material, with super thin wiring in between each of the LED lights.  The challenge I've had with a lot of trans or “transparent products” is that they look good from the front side, particularly at a distance, but when you look at the back end of the things, there's a mesh, like a metallic mesh or something like that, a grid system that kind of makes it look like crap. Todd Stahl: Yeah. With a lot of the applied films that have been out there before, and there's not a whole lot of them, but there are a few, certainly from that backside, it doesn't look at all like the front, and the same thing, with the LED actual metal meshes, again, they look phenomenal from the front, and you get behind, and you're like, man, what am I looking at here? So with our product, what's really cool about that is you get a little bit of the halo effect, from the image that's playing on it, that you can see from, say, the view side of the glass, and then you get a slight reflection off of that front piece of glass that kind of bounces back through. So you see a little bit of a glow or a halo in the background, but it is not an eyesore, and it looks pretty good. You can see out, and you have a very clear picture of the people that you're looking through or whatever object you would be doing from the back of the product. It looks really good. It's a good look from the backside.  David: Yeah, there are numerous products out there that now do this kind of foil mesh effect, and you have to adhere it to the inside of a sheet of glass, which is all fine and everything else, but it doesn't look that good from the inside, does it? Todd Stahl: No, it really doesn't. The concept here, we touched on hockey a little bit, earlier, but you know, we have, you have all these hockey nets in the arena to protect the fans that a puck doesn't hit them, and most of those meshes are black. It's harder for our eyes to kind of pick up the black mesh than it is for white. There are some that have whites, but not many, and the black is blended in a lot easier. I'm a big hockey fan, so I've been to a few arenas, and the white ones are a little harder to, I think it takes away from the image more, and that's why we're using a black LED mesh.  When we first started, it was white, and it just didn't have as good of a; again, I thought it took away from the product from the backside.  David: So presumably there are limits in terms of the size of a glass panel that you can do because you've got a laminate in an oven of some kind and that they're only so big. So if you have, to use the example I mentioned earlier of, an auto dealer's glass curtain wall where the sheet of glass might be pretty darn big. How do you put multiple units together? And what does that look like in terms of cabling and everything?  Todd Stahl: Yeah. So we're always kind of limited in size by a couple of different things. Sometimes it might be the actual raw product glass that we're using. Some sheets are available to us, bigger and smaller, the width of the laminating materials, and then our oven as well. So basically, in our oven here in Pennsylvania, we can laminate an LED panel roughly about 6x10 feet. You know, that's a pretty sizable piece of glass, and then what we can do, if you're doing a glass facade it kind of gets into a little bit more of how the glass is installed, but you're basically stacking the panels. there's a control unit. That attaches to each panel of glass, and then those control units are all tied together and then that gives you one cohesive image plane from one panel to the next.  David: Do you have much of a seam in between them?  Todd Stahl: So, if you remember, at the trade show, I think we had two panels out there and we had a seam in the middle. So I'll see the seam, you'll see the seam, but when the image is playing, you really don't even notice it's there. A lot of times, depending on the application, a glass facade is a little different, because you're going to have all most likely all four edges of the glass covered, but, we have a lot of applications where the panels are being butt jointed together and it's a nice polished edge there. So, yeah, with the image running and stuff, you really don't even see it unless you get within a couple of feet of it.  David: So we're talking millimeters, not inches, in terms of a gap.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. You know, a gap's going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of three, three-sixteenths of an inch, plus or minus. David: So not much at all.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, not much at all. Like I said, it's pretty cool. When that image is going, you're like, it just looks like one big piece of glass.  David: And there are technical limits, like if, let's say, an airport curtain wall that might be like 80 feet high for the side of a terminal or something like that. Can you do that?  Todd Stahl: Absolutely. That can all be tied in. You'd have several zones there, and depending on how you're handling the programming from a laptop, and something like that, you just say zone one's the entire thing, and then you might break it down into individual zones if you want different things playing at different times, but yeah, we this is definitely designed to do entire glass facades or, curtain walls. David: All those little lights generate some heat. How does the heat get out?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so we've been working with these products for about two years now, and I always expect when I put my hand on the glass to touch it, that it's going to be nice and warm, but it really isn't. The heat definitely dissipates quickly. There is some energy consumption, and we have charts for that. So once we get into a building design, we can get in there and say, “Hey, this is what you're going to need for your power requirements.” But it has very similar power requirements to current LED displays that have been around for a while. But yeah, it doesn't really create much heat. You would think it creates more, and I'm telling you, whenever anybody sees it, one of the first things that they almost always do is, “Oh, I expected that to be warm” and they touch it, and it really isn't.  David: Well, one of the criticisms or let's say what a naysayer might say about this, is, “All right, if I buy this, glass panel with the LED mesh embedded inside of it, what happens if there's a dead pixel? I'm stuck with that forever. It can't be repaired because it's sandwiched in between two sheets of glass.”  Todd Stahl: You know, it was my biggest concern. We spent a good bit of time.  I think the lifespan of the LED bulbs we're using is right under 11 years. So we found the biggest problem that we've encountered, and this took us a while before we were going to bring it to market because that's by far the biggest concern; anyone looks at that and goes, it's not the first time I've ever seen a bulb, you know? So there's a couple of things. There's been a lot of research and development to make sure when it comes out of lamination that we've already caused any bulbs to fail before those processes, and we actually have a little bit of a protocol we've developed. So, one of the biggest reasons a light bulb is going to fail is the heat and pressure in that vacuum. It's not so much the heat, but the pressure because there's a little bit of movement in there. So if all those connection points aren't just right, you're going to get a bulb that may come out after you've done all of the work, and then you fire it up, and you know, there's a lot of bulbs, and a diode and only one is bad, it's not good. So we actually have a pre-laminating process we run to actually replicate what is going to go through the stressors of the lamination process. And if we find a bulb or a diode that might not be working, we can replace it after that pre-cycle of lamination.  Now, on the flip side, let's say it's out there, it's in the field. If we use annealed glass on the front surface, so, annealed is not tempered, but the backlight would be tempered, so you're still dealing with a, fully safety rated tempered and laminated makeup. We actually have a drilling process where we can drill a core out of the glass, and we can actually replace that LED diode. What our experience is that once they come through lamination so far, with all the panels we've been working on we have not had one go out and we've put them in some areas of our glass production facility near our tempering oven, which is a really cool piece of equipment. It has a 600 horsepower blower that when the tempered glass comes through, it cools it to dissipate the heat, but it draws some dust, there's some heat back there. We've had a panel running there for two years in that condition without any issues. But yes, you can actually replace the bulbs if you need to, if one goes out.  David: So I'm curious when an architect and a general contractor puts a building up, they're thinking in terms of being there for decades, with maybe the exception of football stadiums, which seem to need to be replaced every five years or so. Is 11 years an acceptable operating lifespan for a sheet of glass for a builder or for a building owner?  Todd Stahl: Yeah. I mean, our interlayers, they last 20-30 years. The interlayers and the glass products, yeah, they're going to last a very long time. When we've been bringing this product to market I think, the event back to the switch light is one of the first times you're us glass guys are introducing electricity into the mix. And at first that back in 2000, I mean, it was really cool. It had the wow factor, but it didn't quite last as long for me. I didn't really get into the product until recently. But you know, that product will last around 10 years as well, and we don't get a whole lot of callbacks very often with any of our glass products.  But it seems like most clients are happy with a 10-year usage. That's been pretty good for the Switch Lite product. We talk about a decade out there to the architects and designers now that, that's a number that they all seem to be very happy  David: Let's say a car dealer goes in, they're fine, they're thinking in terms of the glass that they put in is there for 10 years, and they may switch it out anyways?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, I think you know that everybody wants to be fresh and new. So we found a lot of these high-end retail stores that we've designed with, for instance, a high-end jewelry line, and let's say they have started in California with a new design. They take that design and they move it east to New York City. By the time they get to New York City, whether that's been five to eight years, and they redesign the whole thing over again. So there's a cycle and I think, especially with retail, and a lot of these buildings, they always want to have a new, fresh look, and I think a lot of times they're redesigning in under ten years for a lot of applications.  David: I'm guessing I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing that there's hyper-competition from China for, what I would say is conventional LED displays and so on; you're probably going to have less competition for what you're doing because of the sheer weight of, even if they can make glass cheaper over in China, shipping glass panels over here would be just ghastly expensive, right? Todd Stahl: Yeah, definitely. It's pretty heavy to air freight glass, so it's always nice that there's this thing called the ocean between us and China, especially us being we've been a manufacturer forever, and thankfully, it is a little expensive to ship a finished product like that and take some time. So, yeah, and you know, right now, we're kind of pretty far ahead of the curve in how to actually laminate this properly. Our feeling was when we got involved with this, all right, we got the LED technology. Now we'll just throw it in some glass, and we got a home run and it wasn't quite as easy to just throw it in glass and end up with a finished product, you know? There are still some areas. We are not the only ones in the world laminating this product, but there are, from what I know, under five; we're the only ones who can do it with thin and large panels. We're the only ones that I know of that are actually doing some of the very specific things to make sure it's going to perform properly in these laminated glass applications. In our process, we are patent protected in our process where I think we're just like in the first phase, I don't know all the legal terminology, but we're going through the patent process for the way we laminate it.  David: Which will help you over here, won't help you with Chinese products, but again, there's that ocean thing in between. Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. We have a few intellectual properties here and I'm not one to get into too many legal battles, but we would have some type of recourse if someone does come and is trying to laminate in a similar technique the way we do it. David: I suspect you're kind of looking around the corner as to where this is going and the types of technologies that are emerging. Do you kind of see this as, what you have right now is Gen 1, and over time the light emitters will get smaller, the wiring will be even thinner and so on? Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly the way I see it going. I mentioned earlier: I really am a glass guy, and this is a glass company by people who absolutely love glass. Now, that's a Will Penn. Clear Motion, we have that same feeling as well, but this is more of a technology company. And what we're talking about today, like you said, generation one. We're going to revisit this in under five years, and it's going to look, I think, a whole lot different.  David: Who's buying it right now? And are you in the field with this?  Todd Stahl: So we're working on probably over 50 to 60 current projects right now in the design phase. Almost everyone we're working with has signed NDAs. So we can't necessarily say the clients that we're designing with right now. But one's a high-end fast food restaurant. They want one of these in each restaurant and that's actually for an exterior application.  David: Are these proposals or purchase orders?  Todd Stahl: They are proposals right now, so a lot of verbal commitments. We have a project we're working on in the Middle East in the design phase right now, that's 18 months out, the funding has been approved. They're designing it in the UK and then we're working with the audio visual company, I think in Texas. So this is really brand new.  David: You're in startup mode!  Todd Stahl: We really are, and this is the third company I've started literally from scratch, and I think it'll be the last one because boy, it is challenging. It takes a lot of energy. There's this great energy when you're starting it, and this is a little extra challenging because this is brand new. No one has ever seen clear LED glass displays like they just did not exist four years ago.  People might've thought they saw something similar. Like you said, it was a film or a grid that was put behind the glass. But when people are seeing this now, we're creating a new market, we're educating people to that market, and we're educating ourselves.  David: I'm guessing when people come to a stand at a trade show, you're at, the architects and the people who design physical spaces are the ones who are going, this is more like it. They haven't really liked the idea of films or foils and all that because of how they look at the back end or they're worried about a film sort of, particularly if it's exposed to UV light and all that, it's going to yellow and on and on…  Todd Stahl: So what the feedback from the A&D community has been? We did an AIA show in San Francisco last June, and we had one or two clients, say, “Hey Todd, we have the budget for this. We have clients who want this product, and we've been looking for it for years.” Then we start designing the project with them, and that's the thing: once I shake hands with an architect, we might not actually have that project begin production for 24 months to a year. So, depending if the building's coming out of the ground or if it's just a remodel of an existing one, it's a very long cycle until we actually get orders placed, and you know, something I've been dealing with for 30 years. It's kind of the way the industry is.  David: Infrastructure projects are never quick, are they?  Todd Stahl: No, they really aren't, but the A&D world is kind of our background. It's where we've been for a very long time in that space, and we've definitely noticed that companies, individuals in the audio-visual world respond to this entirely differently. This doesn't have as many questions in their minds. They're more educated because we've been used to dealing with LEDs for a very long period of time. So it's kind of interesting how the two markets work together, like the DSE show where we introduced the product, I would say more to the audio-visual world if I'm using the right terminology there, it was received just as with that much energy, a lot of more understanding right away, not as many technical questions. David: It's a variation on stuff they've been seen before, but maybe a better variation. Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely, and the architects, like you were saying, and even in general, I think even though LG makes an applied film. The North American President of, I forgot the gentleman's name, he was in my shop a little over a year ago, and we were working with his film, and then we showed him our LED glass, and he was blown away by it. David: “There goes my business”  Todd Stahl: Well, I think he was like, I'm going to make that too. I don't think he was worried about his business, but that applied film that they had been using, again, from a very long viewing distance, the product looks great. It's not yet ready to be viewed in shorter viewing distances, but the fact that it's applied, I do think that there is something like when you're buying a high-end product, you don't want people to be able to come up and pick it off, and I mean that definitely happens with every piece of film, I think I've ever worked with in my life. The first thing people do is take their fingernails, and they try to scrape the edge of it. It's just something that is instinctual about humans. But I think if you take that film now, I always say, if you put a piece of film on glass, it's just film. Once you laminate that film inside of the glass, you now have a glass product that protects it.  It does what you were saying. It prevents it from being yellowed over time because the inner layer blocks out almost 100 percent of the UV rays. So I think it's a great home for the LED mesh.  David: So does William Penn and Clear Motion Glass, do they operate separately, or are you kind of in the same office, the same building, and everything else, it's just different business cards? Todd Stahl: No, actually, we are in the same overall building complex, but we're not connected physically. So Clear Motion, basically has the equivalent of its own social security number, which down here in the business and for business, the IRS wants us to have EIN numbers for our businesses. So Clear Motion has an EIN number. Will Penn has an EIN number, obviously, but they definitely operate as two companies but obviously very close connections.  David: And you are running both?  Todd Stahl: I am running both right now, and spoiler alert: two's a lot harder to run than one.  David: Yes, I bet. If people want to find you online, they just go to ClearMotionGlass.com?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, that's it. They can find us there. There are some emails there. They can shoot an email to us and we'd love to talk to anybody if this product's right for them we're really excited about it and definitely creating a lot of energy with it. David: Are you at a trade show anytime soon?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so we're doing Infocomm, I believe. It's the middle of June out in Vegas. Are you going to be there?  David: Yes.  Todd Stahl: Awesome, man. We get to meet in person, then. We'll carve out some time for that, Dave.  David: Absolutely, yeah, and that's a good show for you. There are tons of pro-AV people there. Todd Stahl: Yeah, I love that. That's a new space for us. So we're a little extra excited cause that's definitely not like a glass trade show is.  David: All right. Todd, thank you so much for your time.  Todd Stahl: All right. Yeah. I appreciate it, Dave. It was a pleasure.  

Today on the IC-DISC show, join us for an insightful discussion with Laurie Barkman, a renowned CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook. As the acclaimed Business Transition Sherpa, Laurie sheds light on the reality that all business owners will exit someday. We explore the challenges of selling a business, like why most small businesses don't sell successfully and the potential pitfalls of an exit. We also discuss relying on experienced advisors and how understanding taxes and markets can aid planning. Laurie shares invaluable advice on navigating this critical phase successfully. This episode is a must-listen for any business owner planning to navigate their business transition.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Laurie and I discuss her journey as a CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook, providing insights into the realities of business transition. She highlights the hard truth of selling a business and how eight out of ten small businesses fail to do so successfully. We talk about the common pitfalls of business transition, the five "D's" that can disrupt a business, and the value of creating a satisfied client base. Laurie explains the unique challenges law firms face during business transition and offers her strategies for a smooth transition. We delve into the importance of a clear exit plan and the different options business owners have when transitioning their business. Laurie advises focusing on three primary goals during business transition: business, personal, and financial. We discuss the analogy of business transition planning to having a sherpa guide you through a treacherous terrain, making the process seem less daunting. Laurie emphasizes the significance of accountability in business and the benefits of having industry expert conversations during transition. We explore the upcoming online course based on Laurie's book that she plans to launch in the first quarter of 2024, aiming to reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs. We discuss the importance of having an experienced network of professionals to help businesses reach their goals and create a successful transition plan. LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About The Business Transition Sherpa About The Endgame Entrepreneurship Course GUEST Laurie BarkmanAbout Laurie TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) David: Hi, this is David Spray. Welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Laurie Barkman from Pittsburgh. Laurie is a really fun and interesting guest. She just released her first book entitled the Business Transition Handbook, and she is called in many circles the business transition, the idea being that a Sherpa guides somebody on a journey over a period of time rather than just a one-point event in time. Laurie has an impressive background as a former CEO of a large privately held company. She has a bachelor's and an MBA, and we talked about mistakes business owners make when they're transitioning their business. We talked about the sober reality that 100% every last business owner is going to exit their business and the question is will it be on their terms or someone else's? So there is some great advice and information for any company, any business owner who is looking to exit their business at some point, and I think you'll get a lot of value from this. Good morning, laurie. How are you today? Laurie: David, hey, great to see you, I'm awesome. David: That is great. Now, where are you located today? Laurie: I'm in the great city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. David: Yes, now are you a native of Pittsburgh. Laurie: I am not. I am not. I'm an adopted daughter of the city. I'm originally from Albany, New York. David: Okay, so Ithaca wasn't too far to go for you. Laurie: That's right, it was not. It was only about three hours away. David: Okay, and then what brought you to Pittsburgh? Laurie: After graduating from college, my husband and I moved around Pennsylvania with different corporations. I was with Aigner Sol Rand Company and I was with a division in Shippensburg and after four years decided to get my masters, get my MBA, and decided to move to Pittsburgh. My husband had gotten a nice job with McKinsey and company and here we are. Okay 25 years later. David: You got your MBA in Pittsburgh, right at Carnegie. Laurie: Mellon. I did at Carnegie Mellon okay. David: Well, let's dig into this. So the business transition Sherpa. Where did this nickname come from? Did you come up with this yourself, or did somebody else give you that title? Laurie: You know, it's kind of an amalgamation of things. I remember talking to my husband about a trip that he and I had taken in 1997. We did a trek, we did a hike, and this idea of somebody guiding you and stuck with me. And as I was thinking about what I'm doing, working with business owners, it's not just one moment in time, it's over a period of time, and I really feel like my role is to be a guide. I don't have all the answers. I have a path, I have tools and, just like a Sherpa and the great work that they do, it's that same idea is we're on a journey together. Entrepreneurs build their business, sometimes on their own, but most likely not. Entrepreneurs are building their companies with other people, and so when they get to this other side of the mountain, so to speak, and thinking about their next chapter, why would they go about that by themselves? And I want to be the person that helps guide them. David: Yeah, I love the description of what you do because it picks up the fact that it's a journey, it's not a point in time and it's tough to do by yourself. In my experience I've just closely held small to medium sized business owners. Only sell a business once right, that's right. Laurie: We can regret things in our experience. We can regret what we do and wish we did something differently, or we do not take an action and we regret not taking that action. And my book the whole reason I wrote the book the business transition handbook was to help people proactively so that they don't have regrets. It's a very big, lofty goal to not have regrets in life, but if we can be proactive and we can understand what it takes to build a more valuable, transferable business and then understand what resources we might want to have on our side. I like to say, David, you can't do exit planning when you're exiting. It's just too late. So if you give yourself a time and space to work on having a more valuable, transferable business, the good news is that it's going to be a lot more fun to run your company. It's going to have an economic benefit to you and then in the future you'll have more options. You'll have more valuable options too. David: Yeah, I really enjoyed reading your book. In fact, behind you there, I believe, there's a blown up cover. Yes, it is. Laurie: That's right. Yeah, it was really interesting to write the book. I guess I could say it's my first book. I don't know that I'll have a second, but this, no matter what, is my first book and it was challenging, but at the same time, it was fun. It was like a giant puzzle. Once I mapped out what I believe the big pitfalls are right. So the subtitle of the book is how to avoid succession pitfalls. Each chapter in the book and I don't know if you picked up on this as you were reading it but each chapter is a pitfall. What do you want to avoid? And so what I tried to do was put myself in the reader's seat, the entrepreneur's seat, and how I developed that perspective was from my own experiences, client experiences and then integrating case studies and other learnings from my podcast. I have a show called Succession Stories that you will be a part of soon, and there are so many valuable things to learn from other people's wins and losses and challenges, and that's what I have always sought out to do with my show. The show is about three years old at this point and when I was writing the book, I had, I think, about 120 recordings, so that's a lot of knowledge and content. And what was so fun for me, david, was I was going back into the archives of a discussion. Every show I have has a transcript and of course I don't remember everything. But when I would write a chapter and I would need a case study, I had space for a case study in that particular spot, for a particular topic I would think, okay, which shows, should I go back to dive into those transcripts and then find these golden nuggets and I it was just so interesting to have the recall in writing of oh yeah, you know, she said that was an amazing conversation, and you, my memories are not long, right, we have so many, only so much storage in our brains, exactly. So it was really cool to go back to that body of knowledge that I had created, and I began to appreciate that body of knowledge even more. I think this case studies bring the book to life. I'd like to hear what you think about that, but that's that's what I hear from my readers is they love the, the learning and the concepts, the business concepts in the book, and they think that it's like me having a conversation with them by sharing these case studies and stories along the way. David: Yeah, I agree there were a number of. I mean, there was a lot of great stuff in there, but some of the particular ones I kind of wanted to dive in with you on is so this is a little bit of a quiz to see how much of your book you remember Do. When somebody, when people, decide to sell their business, do they just automatically sell it or do some portion of them? Are they unable to sell the business? Laurie: There's a mix, as you can imagine. Yeah, what percentage are you? David: able to actually sell it in the small business space. Laurie: It's a surprisingly low number. You know the statistics out. There is that every two out of 10 companies in the lower middle market actually sell. So that leaves eight out of 10 not selling. And you could ask, well, why is that? And there's a lot of reasons why. Sometimes along the way we have the five D's kind of pop up, or always also known as the 60s. These D's are taboo things, sometimes we don't want to talk about them, but they're real and we do need to talk about them. It could be the debt of an owner. It could be divorce disaster like COVID you know we put it in that category or disaster like fires and the business or the market has experienced is something traumatic it could be. Did I say divorce already? Divorce is another D. So these D's are something we can plan for. We don't want them to happen but we do need to be prepared. So if we're not prepared for the 60s, they can really wreak havoc on a business. Particularly death. The death of an owner can throw a business into a tailspin and I did cover that at some you know level in the book with a couple of episodes, snippets of people who had experienced that. The other reason why businesses don't sell, david, is because they're just not transferable. If they are so owner dependent and owner centric, that can be a really big reason why it won't sell and it's hard for owners to see that. You know, sometimes owners think that they are the secret sauce. I have a business assessment that one time I'm marketing. The owner of a marketing firm took this assessment and she said oh my God, she goes. I didn't realize I was standing in the way. She thought she, you know, she's a photographer, she's the creative, she's got the client relationships and she realized at that moment oh my goodness, I am making my company less valuable. So there's a pivot in our brains when we recognize some of the elements that help create a more transferable business and companies that have an owner who don't necessarily see the business as an asset, they see it as a job or they see it as a piggy bank. Those are different things, because if you see your business as an asset, you're going to want to create value in that asset over time. You're also going to want to protect that asset. If it's a job, right, I just accepted what is. And it's not growing, it's staying the same. Maybe you're not reinvesting in the business. You're not reinvesting in yourself or your people. And let's just jump to an example. I have a client who, in his favor, had very loyal people Once he got to his sixties, as did his key employees, and everybody's looking to retire. Buyers looking at that business said oh my goodness, how transferable is this business when all the key people are going to retire at the same time? So he had saved money, so to speak, by not bringing in new people, kind of underneath and over a period of training. So he recognizes that now, but it's too late. David: Sure, yeah, I was having this conversation yesterday with a group of CEOs and we were talking about enterprise value, increasing it, owner dependency, and there's a guy that owns a small boutique intellectual property law firm and they were asking him how sellable law firms are in general and he said not very and from his perspective that he said there's things he could do to make the business run without him better. But his model that he really likes to work with his clients directly, he doesn't like an associate between them and so that in his and a couple of his clients are actually in the room and they're like, and he's like, yeah, if I had like some associates that could potentially lower the fees to a client, you know, because there's more leverage in the client. So like no, we'd rather pay more and have you. So I've noticed in professional services there's this tradeoff between what. If you really want to have delighted clients, sometimes that's at odds with making your business the most valuable. And I know my business is like that. I mean I've got huge owner dependency issues because I am the key relationship, but I've gotten peace with the fact that it's just not very sellable and I like being a craftsman and just like it hit. Laurie: Yeah, and that isn't that the important thing. If you recognize it and are accepting of it, hey, you know what? That's okay. Not every business is going to be an asset to sell to another buyer and that's totally okay with the law firm. Just to circle back, because I do have some professional experience with law firms, one of the catch 22 things about law in particular is the code of ethics that they have to abide by. David: The non-competence, the non-compete. Laurie: Yeah. So if a lawyer leaves a law firm, they you know there's certain restrictions on when they can inform their clients and taking their clients with them, and I know there's lots of gray areas. I'm not going to talk about all of the nuances there. My point is that with law firms also there could be other types of professional services that run into this, but in law in particular what clients will say is that they hire lawyers, not law firms. Yeah, and so when you're tied let's just like you're talking about with that particular partner that the clients are willing to pay more because they want to work with that particular partner it could be highly likely that client would jump and go with them, no matter where they are. That can be particularly concerning for an acquiring firm, knowing that they may have some stickiness to certain clients and then they may not have other stickiness. So it really is dependent If there's a firm that's acquisitive and looking at buying other professional services, whether it's law or any other profession. I work with engineering firms quite a bit and in engineering firms there might be contracts but those contracts are not assignable and it might influence not only the type of transaction that we would do, whether an asset sale or entity sale, but it also would influence potentially on the transition for the sellers and how long they might want to stay, or the buyers might want them to stay under either an employment agreement or consulting agreement. It could also influence whether or not there's an earn out. You could structure an earn out, for example, if the buyer wants to structure an earn out to ensure a certain percent of those contracts are assigned over whatever time period or year and a half. So it could influence it in a big way. David: Talk to me about, and thank you for that. Talk to me about what you enjoy most, about being a business transition or not. I shouldn't say A, but the business transition, Sure. What are some of the aspects of that in working with those companies that you just find particularly satisfying or rewarding? Laurie: One of the things that I experienced as a CEO of a privately held company was the loneliness and being in my own head and having big questions and not really knowing where to go. I find that I bring kind of this EQ, if you will, of smarts and know-how and experiences and questions, and then I bring excuse me, the IQ around that, then the EQ, which is more of the emotional side. I've always been a kind of person that people confide in. Obviously, this is a highly confidential type of scenario but, I talk with my clients about the business. for sure, that's the practical side of everything, but we also talk about the personal side. We have to talk about them because remember earlier in our conversation I talked about regrets and there's some alarming statistics out there about experiencing regrets at least one year after the sale. I'm kind of on this mission to help business owners find clarity, and find clarity in a way that makes sense for them, for their family, for their stakeholders, which includes employees and other shareholders and their communities that they serve. A lot of people feel after a transaction that they let so-and-so down. Maybe they let their employees down, maybe they let their communities down. I had a guy in my show whose family business fourth generation chlorine cleaning product was sold in grocery stores and he could not walk down the aisle anymore. He couldn't bear to see that product under another name or by another. He said, yeah, there was a pride. We used to the small town and we had our name on the baseball team and people knew who I was. The identity that this particular person had his family name was on the company. Identity is a really big part of it, david. People go through almost like a withdrawal If they're not excited about what's next, this pull factor, what's pulling you forward to your next thing? If we're not excited about it, it can be really. You can imagine worst case scenarios. Those things do happen. But the in-between space is not that great either, for what makes me feel that I'm helping entrepreneurs? I've always orbited entrepreneurs with a great respect for the risk that they take. I've come to know family businesses as a category. Also. There's the founder-led, family-led, privately held company. I've worked in venture backed, so no offense to venture backed folks, but they're not really a focus for me. I'm really focused on call it the bootstrapped or family-led companies where they're the everyday entrepreneur making it happen. The sense of clarity clarity on three core types of goals is where we focus business, personal and financial. There's a lot of work to be done there. I think that's what makes me motivated, makes me feel appreciated by my clients. They are awesome people. I work with some amazing people that are doing really wonderful things for their community, for their family. They have excellent intentions. They just don't know how to put it all together. I don't either. I don't have all the answers, as I said earlier, but what I do have is I have an awesome Rolodex and I have an awesome way to bring professionals together and collaborate and help my client assemble a business owner transition team advisory team to help them make big decisions along the way. Again, this clarity is the number one thing that I think my clients benefit from. David: Yeah, no, that's really important because, as you talk about in the book, unfortunately 100% of the business owners are going to exit the business, just like 100% of us are going to exit this earth. I was thinking when you were talking about that fourth generation gentleman who couldn't walk down the grocery aisle, but it's one of those things, but it wasn't like he really had. He must not have had a great way to avoid that, because he wasn't going to run the business forever. So you come into what are the options? Basically, if somebody's not immortal, what are the options to exit a business? Because there's several paths, right? Laurie: Yeah, absolutely. Just to finish the statement with 100% of business owners are going to leave one day, there's a big however, you know. However, very few are planning for that day To leave on their terms, and when we have a plan, we're more likely to achieve it. That's just how it works, right. That's why we do strategic planning for businesses. So why don't we do strategic planning for our exit or our transition? And that's really the main advocacy I have in the book is let's have a process, let's have an understanding of what it takes. So to your question I think I address it quite a bit in one of my favorite chapters, which I think is chapter six, which is who should own your business after you, and it shines a spotlight on the different kinds of buyers. When I do workshops, david, I do webinars and I do in-person workshops, and I put up this slide and I have essentially three columns and I go through some examples of each bucket three buckets and people's eyes light up, they take out their camera, they start taking photos of this one particular slide and it is enlightening because we hear about certain kinds of buyers and we don't know that there might be other options out there and maybe not every option is a fit. So what I advocate for is let's understand what are some exit options for your company and which ones might be a better fit than others, and why let's prioritize those and let's come up with option A, b, c and if option A doesn't work out, then we know we've got an option B. It's just like in any negotiation If you have the power to walk away, then you know you're going to get the right deal for you. It's when you don't feel that you have any other options that you feel pinched. So that's why back to the conversation about the five or sixties if an owner passes away and the company is going in a tailspin, with employees leaving and the spouse doesn't know what to do, and they've inherited this company. They've never worked in it, it's a mess and the buyers come out like sharks and there's chum in the water. We want to avoid that. We want to avoid that. So, yeah, I mean we could talk about what. Who are the different kinds of buyers, if you want. David: Sure, yeah, because I mean, I, just off the top of my head, we've got passing it on to the next generation selling it to the employees. A third party buyer? What are some of the other options? Laurie: Yeah, let me just frame it out and that way, visually, I'm kind of working left to right as I talked about these three columns and I put it in that order for a reason. So the first column is strategic buyers, the middle is financial buyers and the one on the right is related buyers. So the examples you mentioned, family and managers would be in the related buyers category. Typically speaking, that is going to be more of a fair market value type of approach to valuing the business, of what price you might expect for your business, and if you kind of go left on that chart then the price expectation should go up right. David: Strategic generally not always generally speaking, will pay the most. Laurie: And why is that? Well, and also, what's a strategic? So a strategic is an entity, it's a company, it could be a competitor, it could be a marketplace vendor, it could be a customer, it could be an adjacent industry to yours where they want to make moves, either geography wise, or into your industry, if they're not part of it yet. So those are strategic and, typically speaking and this was my experience going through a pretty big M&A transaction with a third generation company that we were acquired by a Fortune 50. And, believe me, they had an M&A playbook and when they're that big and they've done that many transactions, so for us it was understanding what's the fit, what will this look like? And for them, I'm sure, in their financial models, it was about leverage what assets do they keep, what employee teams might they cut and how do they gain some cost leverage? And so that's typical where these pieces of the business might be kind of bolted into something else. Maybe it's standalone, maybe it's bolted in, but that's typically why strategic can pay more, because on the back end, as they're modeling out their financials, they know what costs they're going to take out. We don't necessarily know that, but that's what they're looking at. Financial buyer most often we think of private equity firms, and private equity groups will invest on a time horizon roughly five to seven years could be longer and they'll want to buy low, sell high, and so in between, they're investing in that business to improve it, they're putting in management teams and they will take a larger entity, maybe keep it as a standalone and that would be a platform deal. And a platform deal may eventually have other firms acquired to tuck underneath it. Those acquisitions we call tuck ins or add ons. And because they are taking assets and putting them into something larger, you could say, oh well, that kind of sounds like the strategic. And the answer is, yeah, kind of does. So that's why, in a private equity deal, the hybrid, as we might also call it, could, from a multiple standpoint, look more like a strategic offer. So that's just a little financial nuance there. But typically speaking, private equity groups are going to be the biggest, you know, the biggest buyers out there. There's still a lot of dry powder and another big category that I like to spotlight. Well, there's two others I would put under this financial bucket. One is family offices might be investing in privately held companies in different asset classes. So, for example, I had a family office. Second generation was on my show and he talked about what he and his father's investment thesis is. And they're focused on warehousing, like storage, you know, storage unit for consumer storage so you can rent one for a year or whatever and put your stuff in it. So he liked they like that asset class because it has a recurring revenue model to it. And that's just one example. And what's really interesting, if you compare the time horizons for these investments, well, a family office is looking for a buy and hold, more likely than buying, selling a short period of time. So, as I said earlier about fit, this is where it's really important. If the seller doesn't want to be in a situation where it could be sold to the one fish and gobbled up by another. They want to be held for like a longer period of time and perpetuity. Then maybe they should look to you know, talking with family offices who are doing acquisitions in their space. So that's a category that is kind of under the radar and I just put a spotlight on in the book. And then the third one are ESOPs, which is a you know, think of it like an almost like a 401k program for your people. When they retire from your company, they're incentivized to stay, and when they retire they will get a distribution check, and so an ESOP is an interesting option for some other companies Again, not a fit for everyone, but it might be a fit for companies of a larger size with enough employee base, where, again, you're going to have a liability at some point to pay these people, so you have to be able to fund that. But what happens in that transaction is that the company becomes a tax-free entity, and so that's a real incentive, you know for companies to reinvest and acquire others, and it can be very positive for the culture too, yeah. David: I know quite a bit about ESOPs because you were kind enough to introduce me to Mike Silverman and in fact he and his partner, Matt were, I guess, in my podcast a few episodes ago and it's really interesting on some of the ESOP opportunities. And I'm glad you brought up the family office because, right, people don't think of that. Laurie: But when? David: I think about the. What I think of philosophically is the super family office. I think about Berkshire Hathaway's acquisition targets. But the problem is I think now they're up to where. When I started reading Warren's annual letters, they were looking for businesses with enterprise value, I think of like 25 million and up, and I think the last I checked it's half a billion or a billion and up. Just because $25 million companies don't move the needle for them. But yeah and it's kind of like their sales pitch is similar to the family office sales pitch. So I guess one way to think of it is, if you like being an aquire of Berkshire Hathaway but you're smaller than a half a billion dollars, then maybe a family office might make sense. But even then when you think about Berk acquisition requirements. They want a business that runs independently of them. They do not want to manage the business. So you're right back to. A business that can run without the owner is more valuable for everybody. Laurie: Yeah, they have the portfolio largely independent of each other. They've kept the brands, I think, pretty separate because they appreciate the brand and the competitive moat, as they like to call it, around that business. I think they look for companies that have a competitive market differentiation, so it makes sense that they don't muddle the water. David: Yeah. Laurie: Yeah. David: Have there been any positive surprises from writing the book that you didn't anticipate when you wrote? Laurie: it Surprises. Let me think about that. I think just the reviews have been so delightful and meaningful to me and I guess I just didn't think about it. I don't know that it's a surprise, it was just. Maybe I could say a surprise and delight just to see how this book is helping people or how they've shared told me that it's helping people. I think that has been a really lovely outcome. As an author, you put good in the world and you hope goodness comes back, or you hope that it's helping, but you don't really know unless people tell you, and so that's been really great, I would say. The other is with my clients. I have my clients and meet with them on a regular basis and I have clients that are reading the book and then when I meet with them they're like, yeah, I just read chapter five, let's talk about it. So this combination of I'm not going to quite do this myself, I'm going to read the book, I'm going to get knowledge, but I still want to work with someone to help me along the way, was really reinforcing that what I expected. I expected that, frankly, and I think it's important. I do think people can go through this book on their own and at some point in this call give, I'll give the listeners an option to how to make the most of it, but you can do it on your own. You can. What I think is human nature is we want someone to hold us accountable, and that's, I think, not again not necessarily a surprise, but very reinforcing. That is true and that's why just a kind of a pre announcement here I'm going to be creating an online course from the book so that it can help more people in a different way, and hopefully they'll watch the videos and they'll read the book, and I, what I'm aiming to do is reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs, not just the people who are, you know, three to five years out. This is really a book, I think. If you are beyond startup phase but you're growing your business, why not read this book and understand what it's going to take to create a more valuable exit when you're ready? So it's exciting. I'm planning to launch it in the first quarter of 2024. David: Oh, that is exciting. If somebody is interested in learning more about that is do you have any place for them to go yet, or are we too soon? Laurie: We are too soon, but that's a great idea. I should put up like a waiting list or something on my website, but the businesstransitionhandbookcom is the website page for the blog BusinessTransitionHandbookcom. Yeah, the businesstransitionhandbookcom is a page on my site, so they'll see all other pages too, but this is the landing page for the book, so what I might do is put up I'll put up a blurb at some point about awaiting this for the class. And yeah, no, I'm excited about it. Like I said, I aim to reach more people and help more people with it. David: Yeah, and you know that accountability is interesting, because one of the things I see with our clients is that one of the things that's interesting about our clients is that 90% of them have revenues between 10 and 100 million probably somewhere in the light of your clients and the vast majority of them do not borrow money. They've been financially successful enough. They've been able to, you know, internally find growth and because of in that, in addition to other reasons, and most of these also, it's a single shareholder, they don't have a board, and so these clients have zero accountability, like their only accountability is like to their family, to make sure that you know the monthly income is what they're hoping it would be. But you know, they don't have a bank to be accountable to, they don't have a board, they don't have other shareholders, so I can see where that accountability is something that they could be really helpful for them, that they don't really have anywhere else. Now, of course, they may have done that on purpose. Maybe they didn't really like being accountable. You know they were an accountable employee and then they borrowed money from the bank to start a business, so maybe they don't really like me. What do you think? Laurie: I have a client that's about 120 million revenue business in the call it food production space and he's very purposeful, has very good intentions for transition with his daughter over time and really wants to see her be successful in the company and grow with the company. And his partner, to his credit, said hey, not real name. You know, joe, you're going to want we should do a new operating agreement. You know your daughter's in the business now. She's doing a great job. We need a new operating agreement. And this operating agreement was sitting on my client's desk coffee stains. You know he literally had it in the corner of his desk. He told me he was there for nine months and then I met him in a workshop and then that was it. He said oh, that's it, I have to do something. I can't just keep looking at that document. And of course in the transition it's more than just the operating agreement. But it was so many other things too and he just the accountability was really good for him. He needed that. He really did because he had the intention to do it. It just was, you know, backburner and it was never the thing to do when all these other important things are common. Adam. David: Now that makes sense, and I just want to be clear businesstransitionbookcom or businesstransitionhandbookcom. Laurie: I just want to make sure I had it. Yeah, that's okay. It's the title of the book. Yeah, oh it's the. David: Okay yeah, I'm looking at the book. Okay, yeah, that is easy note to remember. What do you enjoy the most about your podcast? Trying to switch gears a little bit. Laurie: I love talking with people on my show about what's worked for them, what they've learned and what they would do differently and if I have an entrepreneur. I have two kinds of entrepreneurs that come on the show. One type is looking in the rearview mirror and that's where they'll get the lessons learned right. We really learn a lot from others where it just didn't quite go the way they would have liked and when they have successes, of course we learn a lot from that too. So that's one type of entrepreneur. The other type of entrepreneur is looking forward and I've started to have more conversations with entrepreneurs and I'm asking them questions about their legacy and how their intentions are for their transition and legacy, if they're open to sharing it. I've had a gentleman came on my show. He's in the HVAC space and he had let his company, his partner, know his intentions to retire in three years and it was almost like this huge weight was lifted off his shoulders and now that it's out there, they can create plans, they can work on things and it's a little bit freeing to do something like that. Other people who aren't quite ready to say what it is they want to do. We talk a little more generally about what's important to them as they think about transition and leaving a meaningful legacy for their stakeholders or family or employees, and I'm really enjoying those conversations. I also talk with people who are experts in the industry on some particular topic, like tax advisors, financial advisors, legal advisors, and those conversations are wonderful because then, as I build my Rolodex of professionals that are able to be the best fit for my clients, it's a wonderful way to do business development and people who listen to the show have. You know, not every listener becomes a client, but I have had listeners reach out. They've listened to succession stories for a year, two years, whatever it is, and they reach out and they said Lori, a longtime fan would love to talk with you. And the resources that are available from the show are on my website, like business assessments and different articles and knowledge articles give plenty of videos and ask to help people learn about different topics. So I feel like this body of knowledge. You know this thought leadership type of approach where if people listen, they learn about me, they learn about what would they do, and then maybe they want to follow up. You know is pretty exciting. So I really like that. I like when I hear from my audience. They tell me what's an interesting topic to them or questions they might have, and I think the learning is really the main thing. I'm a continuous learner I always have been and I find that with every show I'm learning something. You know, I'm learning something every time and I just love that. David: Yeah, and I've probably listened to half of your episodes. I suppose and you know that episode you have with Mike Silverman was really memorable that you know have had to introduce several clients to Mike, and so I think having the advisors on is also a great idea and that's kind of how you fit short of on my show, right? We're not talking about the ICDisc program at all, but you're somebody who my clients outside the ICDisc may find value to this conversation and yeah and I'm like you I love to hear, to hear, people's stories on the Colby. I'm an 8643, which I don't know. If you know the Colby, I do know the Colby. So I'm. That's what's called high fact finding. Okay, so I lead with the fact finding. So for me, I'm always more comfortable, you know, asking questions than answering them. Maybe that's from childhood trauma, where I was forced to answer too many uncomfortable questions by my parents. I don't know. Well, I can't believe how the time has flown by. By the way, what's your website? Laurie: My website is thebusinesstransitionsherpacom. David: Oh, okay, I like it. Laurie: Thank you, you know. I just wanted to mention David, because if your listeners are finding this topic helpful, that's good, you know, and then they probably might be wondering well, what's the next step? Or you know how do I sort of take small nibbles as opposed to biting off a whole arm, and I would recommend that. You know, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed, I want them to feel reassured that we have a process and we'll work with them to meet them where they are and I guess the you know. The next thing would be to reach out and whether they are in a mode of transition and planning, which is what I'll call pre-M&A right, not that they have to sell, but just conceptually. And then, for folks who are anticipating selling to a third party or a family member, you know that transaction somehow some way. So I'm a certified Mergers and Acquisitions Advisor and can help steer them on that path, from the practical side as well as the emotional side, to get a deal done that makes them happy. Okay, I like it. David: If people want to reach out to you, is LinkedIn probably the best way. Laurie: Yeah, linkedin's a great way. Let me know that you heard me on the show. That would be awesome, and I think, david, you'd probably love to know that too. And they could reach me on my website. As you said, the business transition Sherpa, there's a spot to book directly with me. We can connect via Calendly. David: Okay, and then what's the website for the podcast? Laurie: Successionstoriescom is the name of the show and again, you can find it directly on my website in the podcast section. All the catalog of the shows are there, but it's in every type of platform, so if you're Apple or Spotify or whatever you like, you'll find it. David: That's great. So here's the surprise question I promised you. Laurie: So I have two questions left. David: And so here comes the surprise one. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, what advice might you give? Laurie: I think I should have bought a business. David: Okay, so you would have encouraged yourself to buy a business. Laurie: Yes, when I was 25 and I was graduating from my master's program. It was all about the next great tech startup, yeah, and creating that from scratch. And that wasn't me, yeah. But I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just didn't feel like that was me in that mold. And I think now I'm more attuned to entrepreneurs through acquisition, you know as a category, and I didn't mention them, but they also would fall under the financial buyer category and there are many of them out there, not just in the US but around the world, who are interested in being part of that succession plan for a founder next generation leader. David: If you do you ever listen to the my First Million podcast. Laurie: I'd spent a while, but I'm familiar with it. You like that. David: They had a guest on recently. That is probably certainly my top five favorite podcast interviews ever and it's about a woman Sarah I forget her last name, but she was getting her MBA and decided she was going to buy a business with and she had zero money. She was going to buy a business you like these real estate advertisements? Buying real estate with no money down. She was going to buy a business with no money down and it's just a fascinating story of the process she went through through in just an astonishingly wonderful interview that I couldn't recommend highly enough. So apparently she was able to somehow go back in time and give her a 25 year old self that advice because she managed to pull that off. That's very cool. Is there anything we didn't cover that you wish we had? Laurie: Well, I think just to reiterate for people that when time is on your side, you can make an impact on your future and give yourself the space to work on your business and not just in your business. That would probably be my main advocacy and surround yourself with people that can help hold you accountable to the process and meet you where you are. So if they are just thinking about it, trying to figure it out, trying to understand what's their business worth today, yeah, that's a great place to start to. You know, try to figure out and model. Where are you now, where do you want to be and what's the gap and how are you going to get there? David: That's awesome, Laurie. I really appreciate your time on the show and I appreciate you taking the time to be on here. Laurie: Well, David, thank you for having me. I know this is my second time around you and I talked on a different show. We did. David: Yeah, we did. Laurie: It's lovely to be back with you and reconnect, and I'm just so glad that you are sharing this content with your audience, and I appreciate you, thank you. David: Yeah, it is my pleasure. Well, I hope you have a great day. Laurie: You too. Special Guest: Laurie Barkman.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, join us for a fascinating discussion with our guest David Fletcher, General Manager of Lone Star Sports and Entertainment. David gives us exclusive insights into the sports business industry, highlighting the economic impact of major sporting events on Houston. We learn about LSSE's role in the city's sports landscape and the excitement for the upcoming Tax Act Texas Bowl. David also enlightens us on why Houston is a major sports hub, touching on upcoming events like the college football championship and the 2026 FIFA World Cup. Tune in for a thrilling exploration of the fast-paced world of sports business. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Chris talks with David Fletcher, the General Manager of Longstar Sports and Entertainment, about the intricacies and realities of the sports business world. David describes the significant economic impact of major sporting events on the business community, highlighting their ability to draw in substantial revenue and tourism. We discuss the role of LSSE in the Houston sports scene and its involvement in exciting upcoming events like the Tax Act Texas Bowl. David addresses some common misconceptions about the sports industry, revealing the hard work, long hours, and sacrifices behind the scenes. We delve into what it means to be a good teammate in the sports industry, focusing on traits such as being coachable, ready, and positive. David shares insights on why Houston has become a hotspot for sports business, citing its prime location, diverse population, and robust infrastructure. We discuss the upcoming national college football playoff championship and the anticipation it's generating in Houston. David gives a preview of the 2026 FIFA World Cup, expressing his enthusiasm for the global event to be hosted in Houston. I explore personal topics with David, such as his first job experience, his preference for Tex-Mex over barbecue, and his dream 30-day sabbatical destination. David shares his passion for skiing in Park City, Utah, expressing gratitude for the support and involvement of the Houston community in their work. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS David Fletcher About David TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet David Fletcher, general manager of Longstar Sports and Entertainment. David shares his insights into the business of sports, as well as the economic impact major sporting events can have on the business community. David, I wanna welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for coming today. David: It's great to be here, Chris. Appreciate the opportunity. Chris: So let everybody know, you're the general manager of what's called Longstar Sports and Entertainment here at Houston. Tell the audience a little bit about what that company is and kind of how it fits into the sports landscape here in Houston. David: Yeah, longstar Sports and Entertainment, or LSSE, as we try to call it with such a long name, is really the events production and management company at Houston, texans. So we are a primary outlet for event production, promotion and really a focus to our efforts to date around filling event dates at NRG Stadium. Most of what we do, chris, is in the sports space, although we have certainly done fair share of shows in the entertainment side, but college football, international soccer, rugby are all really big parts of what we do and inside of that we can do anything and everything that we need to do to make an event successful. We've promoted and negotiated and done our own events. We work with partners like ESPN or the Major League Soccer to host events at our building for them. We work with global brands like Manchester United, real Madrid or even Taylor Swift to bring events to our place in a variety of different ways. So really our focus is on bringing people together in Houston and we've done some other things over the years some investments and some events outside of NRG Stadium. But at our core we are a major part of making NRG Stadium one of the world class destinations for events and we're very proud of what we've been able to do over the last 21 years. Chris: That's what I love about kind of the focus at LSSC and the Texans for that matter is really a focus on doing things for the benefit and betterment of Houstonians. It seems to be kind of maybe a core focus. David: No question. I mean, look, at the end of the day, our organization is only focus on three things it's creating experiences, it's delivering incredible vowed partners and it's about doing great things for Houston. So, in that core capacity, major events, whether it be bringing Leon O Messi to play at NRG Stadium in an event like Copa America a few years ago I mentioned Taylor Swift we had a chance to host her in 2018, or Keddie Chesney or George Straits or Tim McGraw done shows with all of them over the years to the big time college football, like the Tax Act Texas Bowl that we host each and every year. Our focus is on really those three initiatives and I think they play into exactly what you said, which our organization has been all about, and the family the McNair family has been all about since day one. Chris: So, speaking of the Tax Act Texas Bowl, where we've got a match up right around the corner with Oklahoma State and Texas A&M excited about that and I would think that there is some excitement from those fan bases about being here at Houston. David: No question, our 18th year of hosting that college football postseason spectacular that happens each and every year at NRG Stadium. Last 10 years we've had the Big 12 in SEC and you mentioned it Texas A&M, who's obviously one of, if not, the biggest collegiate brand in this part of the world, going and taking on Oklahoma State, an old rival there from the Big 12 days and 20th ranked Oklahoma State Cowboys, I might add, who made it all the way to the Big 12 championship game this year and have the nation's best running back in Oli Gordon. A lot of things to be excited about on both fan bases. Texas A&M obviously a great brand, but had their struggles on the field relative to their expectations this year. A lot of transition, including bringing in a really exciting new coach and Mike Elko, and this is an opportunity for both of these teams, but particularly Texas A&M, to start their 2024 March to the championship this December 27th. Chris: Very good. So let's talk a little bit just about you and kind of how you got into the sports industry and you've been general manager now at LSE like 10 years. That's crazy because I can remember when you first took over the role. So 10 years goes by fast. David: It goes by real fast, chris. Look, for me sports has been an incredible part of my life, like many, since my early days of youth, I know as a kid. For me there wasn't a day that didn't go by literally a day that I didn't have to go to some practice or didn't get to go to some practice of some kind, played a lot of sports really important to my family growing up and ultimately developed a very strong passion for sport itself. As I got a little older I was in school at the University of Texas I realized that you could make a business out of it. You could create a life around the, not just playing on the field, and for me my playing days they definitely ended in high school, which is okay. I still get to this day, get to go out there and try and hack it with the best of them every once in a while, but I do it vicariously most of the time in working with my kids and coaching them and watching them grow. So for me, like I said, I knew sport was a big part of what I had a passion for when I graduated from UT. I had an opportunity to be to work for an NFL team in my hometown right here in Houston Texas. They didn't even have a name until a few weeks into my job, but that was the Houston Texans, and so coming out of UT and having the opportunity to be a part of building a professional team no less an NFL team from the ground up was something that I thought was really cool and I thought would be something that would help fuel that passion further, and it has. There's no question, of course, as a graduate coming out of college, many of us, myself included had bills to pay, and working as an intern at any sports team is not a great way to pay off those bills very quickly. But you know, I knew I had. I knew I had a goal in mind. I knew that I could make a business out of this if I really focused on making the most of the opportunities I had about keeping a positive attitude and really just taking every opportunity I could to grow, and I did that. I worked at the Texans during that first season, had an opportunity after that to get into a sales side where I did start making money working in media sales after leaving the team, spent a few years doing that for the University of Texas Athletics and then with the Houston Rockets, but I had a chance to return back to the team in 2010 and have been with the Texans in some way or shape or form ever since and that's been a lot of fun to really get to be in my hometown to work for the NFL team ups and downs included along the way, right, as we've had some great years and some not so great years. But going back to what I talked about earlier about being able to make an impact, particularly in my hometown, it's been an amazing opportunity for me and I still wake up every day and I know this is gonna sound really silly and I've grown a lot in my career, but we office at NRG Stadium and there are a lot of days where I walk in I'll hear the voice guy, david Brady, in my head going welcome to NRG Stadium. Chris: And it's just for me as I walk in the office. David: You know, it's a subtle reminder in my head that you know what. This is something pretty cool and this is something really special and been fortunate enough to be a part of a lot of things that have helped grow this community as a sports destination and then hopefully a lot more going forward. Chris: That's great. I mean it's a very unique position, unique opportunity. It relates to working for an NFL franchise. Right, there's only 32 franchises that you can work for, so let's talk again. So you work your way up and then you get this opportunity to move into leadership and I like to talk to guests, entrepreneurs, about leadership. So let's talk about that with you, kind of give us a little idea of your journey. Who were some of your mentors that you kind of molded your leadership style after? David: Well, I think mentors are so important, chris. They're so important to provide you you know reality, to provide you guidance, to provide you you know somebody who can ultimately be a resource, good and bad, in any situation. You know, for me it started with a good friend of ours and I still think about him all the time as Jamie Roots, you know, arguably one of the best in the business, president of the Texans for 20 plus years and spent spent really so much time, energy and effort in creating and ultimately growing the Texans brand, and so getting a chance to watch him and be a part of his team for almost a decade myself was something that you know, I've taken so much from. You know, the things that we focused on were about relationships, and that's really where it starts in any of these businesses is, you know, whether you're working with clients, teammates or employees and just trying to find ways to connect. You've got to be able to connect at all levels and build relationships with people, no matter what role they're playing in your business. So it's starting with relationships first. You know, I think, looking at how Lone Star has been approached I talked to Jamie about this a lot over the years Texans, so important and ingrained in the business of, or the fabric of, the Houston community. But what Lone Star has really helped do is expand the reach beyond just football and reach into what is already arguably the most diverse community in the country and bring them in to a place that they could celebrate, that the passions they have can create memories that last a lifetime and ultimately, yes, do business. You know, and so you know, lone Star helps us reach in. We've done, you know, 21 Mexican national team soccer events at our stadium. We've hosted Beyonce. We've had, you know, lsu take on Wisconsin or, you know, coming up, the national championship game for college football. Yes, there's some core elements that are consistent across every sport, every entertainment property, every football event that I just mentioned, but each of those tie people back to our business, they tie people into, or they bring people into, our community and they ultimately, you know, give us an opportunity to create even more momentum for the team and for Houston going forward. So, when I look at how we've approached that from a leadership perspective, you know it's really been thinking about how our business, my business, can impact people outside of what we do in the Texans. And with that, you know, like I said from the beginning, it starts with relationships. Chris: Hey, you hit the nail on the head because I think that's true. No matter what business you're in, if you're a one man shop or you're growing it to be bigger, it's all about relationships, like you said, with your external partners but more importantly with your internal teammates. So, talking on that subject a little bit, let's talk a little bit. I know you know you've built a team around you at LSSC to help put on and promote these events. What are some of the things you look for when you're going through that process? One maybe identify whether it's through the recruiting process or onboarding or, as they're there, in kind of the training to make sure you're making the best decision you can in building that team. And then maybe we'll talk about the other side is when you know maybe this wasn't the right fit, the harder decisions to make. David: Well, I think it starts. You know I mentioned it earlier, but to me there's really three core elements of being a good teammate, and I think these matter whether you're the intern or you're the leader of the organization. One be coachable right. Nobody that I have ever met, even the best in the business, know everything right, so be able to take advice, take criticism, learn from your mistakes, and that's something I think's really important. Two be ready, right. Be when opportunities exist, don't be afraid to raise your hand, don't be afraid to speak up, don't be afraid to go all in. You never know when an opportunity could be the best opportunity for you if you don't ask. So be coachable, be ready and then, from my perspective, just be positive, right. The attitude is the only thing that any of us can control, and my experience and my life has taught me that if you focus on the good, you have a lot better chance of getting there than if you focus on the bad. And that speaks to communication internally. That speaks to the way you approach how you position your business. It speaks to how you approach your competition right. Ultimately, at the end of the day, if you focus on the good, there's a better chance you're gonna get good. Chris: Like I couldn't agree more on that positive mindset, kind of staying positive, focus on the positive, learn from the bad and the negative maybe, but your primary focus has got to be on improvement in a positive way. Yeah, again, there's books written about it all over, but mindset makes a big difference. David: No question, no question. Ultimately, if you're a teammate for us and you've got those qualities, we feel like that's a great start to being a positive contributor to our group. Chris: Well, no just from being around the organization as much as I have. Y'all are known the Texans and LSSE. You're known within the sports industry of training people to be great and I guess that's a blessing and a curse. You get really good people but then people come and take them. David: Well, I've always had the mentality, chris. I know it's one that may fly in the face of common thought, but look, if anybody's being approached or anybody's being seen as having an opportunity coming from where we have brought them to, then we've done our jobs the other day and so we wanna keep as many of those on our team as we can, no question, but many times, for a variety of reasons, you have to accept that maybe reality, and so do the best of what you've got, be ready for the next opportunity, keep moving forward. Chris: So, working in the world of sports, what's one of the things you think is maybe the biggest misperception that most have about what you do? Cause it sounds pretty glamorous. David: Well, that's probably the biggest misperception. I think that, and that I have access to every ticket for every event all the time. My wife still sometimes even has that misperception, but I love her for it. No, look, I think the reality is that. I think that people do think that. Well, let me back up. I think there can be a perception that it is all glamorous all the time. Right, there's a lot of very visible and very talented people that are in the media all the time, that are compensated well, that are creating brands of their own. There certainly is an element to that, but I think that more often than not, it's a job that, if you don't have a passion for what you're doing, what you're doing, it's gonna be hard, because the hours are long, holidays are not really holidays. The players have negotiated a very significant salary, and that's not always the case for everybody else. And on the business side, and there are so many facets of what working in sports can be, and I think that's also, at the same time, an opportunity A lot of people look at. Well, you work for a team so that you're working in sports. Working in sports can be working for an agency that's working with a brand that is creating a partnership with a team. It could be working on the media side, bringing the events to life through social, digital and television content. It could be being a lawyer that negotiates contracts. It could be taking tickets and welcoming people to NRG Stadium, and so there's just so many different ways. There are over 7,000 people that work on a major event day at NRG Stadium. Just on the day, just on the day itself, right Between part-time staff, texans, employees, police fire, you name it. That's crazy. So it's such a big it becomes its own little city. So ultimately, there's a lot of different ways that sports can touch somebody. Most often, people just think of the players and what happens on the field. Chris: Well, it's nothing. You said when you started that, and I think it's true and it transcends all industries Passion To be really good at what you do, you have to have a passion for it, because it's long hours and putting in real hard time to learn and advance and grow your expertise at whatever it is, and so it has to start and stop a passion. David: No question, and if I look towards my life personally, it's been the fuel that's put me on the path to the successes that I've had. I mentioned it from the beginning. I mean, I started out as an intern with the Texans. I'm very proud of the fact that I'm the only intern or the only member of the executive team at Texans that actually started out as an intern with the team itself and that wasn't by accident. I mean, certainly there's a lot of good fortune along the way and I was able to produce results when needed. But I look at that as a testament to. Without the passion that I had, I wouldn't have been able to go through the 120 hour weeks as an intern, making minimum wage, I might add. You know working on, you know lifting heavy equipment or organizing, you know volunteer groups or you know putting together hours of copy that may not even be used, right. I mean, it's just those things that are just little steps along the way that, personally, I had to do, but I think they apply to anybody who has felt success in their business is that it starts with that passion. Chris: Yeah. So let's turn the conversation a little bit and talk about something that I don't think gets talked about enough, certainly at least here in Houston. We, when you step back and look at it, we, being Houston, which means you and others have done an amazing job of making Houston a true, like sports event destination. So we can talk about that a little bit, but what I want to do is connect that to how that the impact that has on the business community in Houston, because it's significant. David: It's massive, you know. So I'll start with a couple of things. One, you know, I think Houston's success as a destination for sport really points to. You can point to a lot of things that have been contributing factors, and they all have been geography center of the country, center of the continent, certainly a very, a very easy to get to market with all the infrastructure here from the great airports, obviously our traffic and our freeways. But the port you know, the infrastructure itself is fantastic, have served us well over the last 20 plus years with this latest renaissance, and we'll going forward. You've got a Some may need some tweaking, right? Chris: No question about it. David: I mean NRG is certainly, you know, a fantastic, world-class facility throughout its history. But that definition certainly has changed over the years and there's opportunities to continue to be the biggest and the best that we're working towards getting in the future. But the market seven plus million people in the DMA it's the most diverse market in the United States. All of that creates a lot of reasons why Houston has been a major destination. But I think the most important element is the leadership and the people and when I say people I mean the people at all levels that help contribute to the experience that's created when major events. Stakeholders are looking for a place to go and they come into Houston and they get to see it. We've got a number of groups that have worked together very successfully over the years the Texans and Lone Star, nrg Park, houston Livestock Show and Rodeo, all the major professional teams, harris County, houston Sports Authority, houston First Mayor's Office, city and Fire, the Texas Medical Center. All of those groups and many others have created a winning formula with how we approach the event experience, whether it's a festival, a conference or the Super Bowl. You throw in the hospitality community, which Houston First is certainly a driver of, but the thousands of unbelievable hotels, restaurants and entertainment options that are here in this community and how they collaborate and work together around these major events. And you see, no other market in the country can offer what we have as a collective package, and that's why you've seen Houston be awarded more major sporting events than any other market in the country over the last 15 years. That's impressive. Chris: I mean, people don't know that. They don't, it doesn't get talked about. David: They don't, they don't. There's certainly a lot of energy around. You get the first one right and then it just kind of dominos and we've been very aggressive as a community in pursuing those options. We've been very successful and when we get those options here to put our best foot forward, there are great resources at state level that certainly help with that and a spirit of collaboration with the governor's office to try and generate as many major events in the state of Texas as possible. So those are all winning points in the formula for success. But it really starts with the people and as we look at the future of the sporting event business, the major event business in Houston, there's a reason why we keep going after this and a big part of it is what you talked about the economic impact. Pick any number of these. These events Final four, college football, playoff, national championship game, fifa World Cup, super Bowl, taksac, texas Bowl, copa America I'm missing thousands of events that happen and are the Major League Baseball All-Star game, nba All-Star game, mls Cup. All these events that you see have really generated billions of dollars collectively for our community and economic impact. That's people coming to Houston and staying in our hotels. They're going and having a great time down in Galveston. They are eating at some of the world's best restaurants and that fuels our economy. We don't have the typical transient business that a vacation destination like a Miami or New Orleans may have, where entertainment in the community can spark a lot of travel. We are very much focused on conference events and entertainment opportunities and we do it better than just about anybody else out there. Chris: So let's kind of try to, you know, put some context around that. You mentioned, and obviously I'm well aware of the Texas Bowl, Taksac, Texas Bowl economic impact of that event to the greater Houston area. David: Annual basis over the last 10 years has been over $30 million on average. Every single year, we'll have anywhere between 25 and 30,000 people traveling in, staying in our hotels, restaurants, for three or four days ahead of the event. You've got people they're even driving in, too right, people that are coming in from the outer areas getting to celebrate that event. So that's meaningful, especially when that event specifically happens every year. It's right, it's a re-accuracy. End of the year, end of the year, when a lot of people are traveling for the holidays or maybe not doing as much, we've got an event that brings people into our community. That brings people here that may not be from a drivable distance. They may be coming from, you know, south Carolina, or Louisiana, or Florida, or Colorado Now that the Big 12 has expanded or Arizona, so you know, it really is something that fuels those businesses and gives our community as a whole an opportunity to celebrate around a major event, and we're proud of what that particular event has done, as well as, obviously, many others. Chris: Then we've got a couple of big events on the horizon. I want to talk about some of that. So let's talk about the first one, and that's the national title football college football playoff championship on January 8. It's a huge deal. It's the last one, I guess, of the 14 format, but you know what can we look forward to as Houstonians, with that game right around the corner? David: Well, it's a true celebration of college football, a week-long celebration. So you know, from a community perspective, you know the impact has already started. The Houston Love Teachers campaign that the Harris County, houston Sports Authority and the College Football Playoff local organizing committee has put together is has already generated millions of dollars in support for and recognition of teachers in our community, excuse me and that's an impact that will obviously pay dividends well beyond the game itself on January 8. When you look to event week itself, got four teams and four big brands that are hoping to descend upon Houston right after the New Year's. Chris: Yeah, yeah, so we've got what I mean. I think, any way you slice it, there's four or two teams that show up here are going to have big followings. David: Well, they are, and so you know what that means. It's not just about the 70,000 people that will fill up NRG Stadium. You know, again, the week long of activities, with free concerts every night during the weekend leading up fan fest down at Georgia Brown, which will have all kinds of interactive opportunities for fans to celebrate and enjoy the game of college football. You've got a number of initiatives around the industry itself that you know just further fuel Houston as a destination for business around the sport conferences and events and media opportunities, literally billions, if not trillions, of impressions showcasing our city. Chris: So you're gonna have the eyes of the world really on Houston for that kind of that weekend leading up and, I think, encourage the Houstonians right to get out and enjoy it yeah, no question, I mean it is. David: Houston is one of the best college football markets in the country the, the tax act, texas Bowl and many other events that we hosted. Our place and throughout the city. You've age rice, you know hcu tsu, prairie view. There's so much around college football that really Houston should be part of this destination, going forward on a consistent basis, and I think we'll show that as we bring everybody together here next month very good, yeah, david. Chris: So I think there's a lot to be excited about having the national title game be in our backyard, and I hope Houstonians will show up and take advantage of all the the events that are being planned yeah, it's gonna be an incredible week. David: We've earned the opportunity and I know, just like we did with Super Bowl a few years ago, with Final Four earlier this year, sonians love their sport. They will be out and enjoying another great celebration, and that's something that we should be excited about, and it's not the only one. You look down the road. We've got the world's biggest event coming just two years from now. Chris: As well, and that's the World Cup that's right. David: Yeah, fifa World Cup returns to Houston in 2020, or returns to Houston, comes to Houston in 2026. Houston, one of the venues in North America that was selected and you know just when you think about the opportunity to host five, six, seven, eight events in NRG Stadium with an average audience of a billion people and names like Messi and Neymar and Mbappe, who probably mean a lot to many people in this community but are treated as icons around the globe, and for Houston to have its name among the great markets of the world, at a truly global market which we know from a business perspective and from a from a population perspective. It is but to have that that verification on that type of stage is something that you know. As a community we also be very proud of and Chris Canetti in the World Cup office and Janice Burke and everybody over at NRG Park that ourselves included that helped to be part of making that a reality. We know we got a lot of work ahead to live up those expectations that's great. Chris: Well, david, I appreciate you, you know coming on and sharing some of these specifics. I want to ask you just a few more questions about you personally. What was your first job before days? You know the years before you were the intern of Houston Texas so I my first job I'm gonna go with. David: I've got a 1, 1a, all right. So my first job really was I worked at a Kroger in Kingwood as a checker or, sorry, as a bagger. But my my first quote real job I didn't have that one very long was I. I ended up being a server at Kingwood Country Club and the reason I say that was my first real job is that I worked in the service industry throughout my career. I mean, I still do today, obviously, but I worked in the service industry for 10 years, all the way through my time in Austin, going to school at UT, and I will tell you that nothing will teach you more about the world good and bad, than working in the service industry and I am so appreciative of the opportunities that I got to again. Start with something simple as that. But as a funny story, chris, I will say my crowning achievement as a server is I did serve as Don Johnson, the actor, don Johnson's waiter for the 10 cup rap party, because Tim Cup was hosting. That's right and so I do have that up by resume. Chris: So there you go see one of the benefits of living in Kingwood that's right. Yeah, one of the many I'll add okay, so since you work so much in, I guess, service hospitality, this will be easy for you. All right, you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Tex-mex all day long all right, and this one's gonna be hard for you to answer okay maybe not. If you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go? What? David: would you do? That is a great question. I don't think it's very. I don't think it's very hard for me at all. I am an avid skier and my family and I have been fortunate enough to spend a lot of time in Park City, utah, and I try and get the 30 days even now it's not possible to do in our work, but I love Park City probably more than any place else in this planet, and so I'd love to be able to go up my family for three days and just ski our behinds off got you. Chris: Well, that's great. That's a good one. David, thanks again for taking the time. Congratulations to you and the rest of the team back at Energy Park, the Texans LSSE, for all you do for Houston well. David: Thank you, chris, and we appreciate your support and involvement as well. Special Guest: David Fletcher.

David was the chief software architect and director of engineering at Stitch Fix. He's also the author of a number of books including Sustainable Web Development with Ruby on Rails and most recently Ruby on Rails Background Jobs with Sidekiq. He talks about how he made decisions while working with a medium sized team (~200 developers) at Stitch Fix. The audio quality for the first 19 minutes is not great but the correct microphones turn on right after that. Recorded at RubyConf 2023 in San Diego. A few topics covered: Ruby's origins at Stitch Fix Thoughts on Go Choosing technology and cloud services Moving off heroku Building a platform team Where Ruby and Rails fit in today The role of books and how different people learn Large Language Model's effects on technical content Related Links David's Blog Mastodon Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. Intro [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today. I want to share another conversation from RubyConf San Diego. This time it's with David Copeland. He was a chief software architect and director of engineering at stitch fix. And at the start of the conversation, you're going to hear about why he decided to write the book, sustainable web development with Ruby on rails. Unfortunately, you're also going to notice the sound quality isn't too good. We had some technical difficulties. But once you hit the 20 minute mark of the recording, the mics are going to kick in. It's going to sound way better. So I hope you stick with it. Enjoy. Ruby at Stitch Fix [00:00:35] David: Stitch Fix was a Rails shop. I had done a lot of Rails and learned a lot of things that worked and didn't work, at least in that situation. And so I started writing them down and I was like, I should probably make this more than just a document that I keep, you know, privately on my computer. Uh, so that's, you know, kind of, kind of where the genesis of that came from and just tried to, write everything down that I thought what worked, what didn't work. Uh, if you're in a situation like me. Working on a product, with a medium sized, uh, team, then I think the lessons in there will be useful, at least some of them. Um, and I've been trying to keep it up over, over the years. I think the first version came out a couple years ago, so I've been trying to make sure it's always up to date with the latest stuff and, and Rails and based on my experience and all that. [00:01:20] Jeremy: So it's interesting that you mention, medium sized team because, during the, the keynote, just a few moments ago, Matz the creator of Ruby was talking about how like, Oh, Rails is really suitable for this, this one person team, right? Small, small team. And, uh, he was like, you're not Google. So like, don't worry about, right. Can you scale to that level? Yeah. Um, and, and I wonder like when you talk about medium size or medium scale, like what are, what are we talking? [00:01:49] David: I think probably under 200 developers, I would say. because when I left Stitch Fix, it was closing in on that number of developers. And so it becomes, you know, hard to... You can kind of know who everybody is, or at least the names sound familiar of everybody. But beyond that, it's just, it's just really hard. But a lot of it was like, I don't have experience at like a thousand developer company. I have no idea what that's like, but I definitely know that Rails can work for like... 200 ish people how you can make it work basically. yeah. [00:02:21] Jeremy: The decision to use Rails, I'm assuming that was made before you joined? [00:02:26] David: Yeah, the, um, the CTO of Stitch Fix, he had come in to clean up a mess made by contractors, as often happens. They had used Django, which is like the Python version of Rails. And he, the CTO, he was more familiar with Rails. So the first two developers he hired, also familiar with Rails. There wasn't a lot to maintain with the Django app, so they were like, let's just start fresh, fresh with Rails. yeah, but it's funny because a lot of the code in that Rails app was, like, transliterated from Python. So you could, it would, it looked like the strangest Ruby code in the world because it was basically, there was no test. So they were like, let's just write the Ruby version of this Python just so we know it works. but obviously that didn't, didn't last forever, so. [00:03:07] Jeremy: So, so what's an example of a, of a tell? Where you're looking at the code and you're like, oh, this is clearly, it came from Python. [00:03:15] David: You'd see like, very, very explicit, right? Like Python, there's a lot of like single line things. very like, this sounds like a dig, but it's very simple looking code. Like, like I don't know Python, but I was able to change this Django app. And I had to, I could look at it and you can figure out immediately how it works. Cause there's. Not much to it. There's nothing fancy. So, like, this, this Ruby code, there was nothing fancy. You'd be like, well, maybe they should have memoized that, or maybe they should have taken that into another class, or you could have done this with a hash or something like that. So there was, like, none of that. It was just, like, really basic, plain code like you would see in any beginning programming language kind of thing. Which is at least nice. You can understand it. but you probably wouldn't have written it that way at first in Ruby. Thoughts on Go [00:04:05] Jeremy: Yeah, that's, that's interesting because, uh, people sometimes talk about the Go programming language and how it looks, I don't know if simple is the right word, but it's something where you look at the code and even if you don't necessarily understand Go, it's relatively straightforward. Yeah. I wonder what your thoughts are on that being a strength versus that being, like, [00:04:25] David: Yeah, so at Stitch Fix at one point we had a pro, we were moving off of Heroku and we were going to, basically build a deployment platform using ECS on AWS. And so the deployment platform was a Rails app and we built a command line tool using Ruby. And it was fine, but it was a very complicated command line tool and it was very slow. And so one of the developers was like, I'm going to rewrite it in Go. I was like, ugh, you know, because I just was not a big fan. So he rewrote it in Go. It was a bazillion times faster. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to add, I'll add a feature to it. It was extremely easy. Like, it's just like what you said. I looked at it, like, I don't know anything about Go. I know what is happening here. I can copy and paste this and change things and make it work for what I want to do. And it did work. And it was, it was pretty easy. so there's that, I mean, aesthetically it's pretty ugly and it's, I, I. I can't really defend that as a real reason to not use it, but it is kind of gross. I did do Go, I did a small project in Go after Stitch Fix, and there's this vibe in Go about like, don't create abstractions. I don't know where I got that from, but every Go I look at, I'm like we should make an abstraction for this, but it's just not the vibe. They just don't like doing that. They like it all written out. And I see the value because you can look at the code and know what it does and you don't have to chase abstractions anywhere. But. I felt like I was copying and pasting a lot of, a lot of things. Um, so I don't know. I mean, the, the team at Stitch Fix that did this like command line app in go, they're the platform team. And so their job isn't to write like web apps all day, every day. There's kind of in and out of all kinds of things. They have to try to figure out something that they don't understand quickly to debug a problem. And so I can see the value of something like go if that's your job, right? You want to go in and see what the issue is. Figure it out and be done and you're not going to necessarily develop deep expertise and whatever that thing is that you're kind of jumping into. Day to day though, I don't know. I think it would make me kind of sad. (laughs) [00:06:18] Jeremy: So, so when you say it would make you kind of sad, I mean, what, what about it? Is it, I mean, you mentioned that there's a lot of copy and pasting, so maybe there's code duplication, but are there specific things where you're like, oh, I just don't? [00:06:31] David: Yeah, so I had done a lot of Java in my past life and it felt very much like that. Where like, like the Go library for making an HTTP call for like, I want to call some web service. It's got every feature you could ever want. Everything is tweakable. You can really, you can see why it's designed that way. To dial in some performance issue or solve some really esoteric thing. It's there. But the problem is if you just want to get an JSON, it's just like huge production. And I felt like that's all I really want to do and it's just not making it very easy. And it just felt very, very cumbersome. I think that having to declare types also is a little bit of a weird mindset because, I mean, I like to make types in Ruby, I like to make classes, but I also like to just use hashes and stuff to figure it out. And then maybe I'll make a class if I figure it out, but Go, you can't. You have to have a class, you have to have a type, you have to think all that ahead of time, and it just, I'm not used to working that way, so it felt, I mean, I guess I could get used to it, but I just didn't warm up to that sort of style of working, so it just felt like I was just kind of fighting with the vibe of the language, kind of. Yeah, [00:07:40] Jeremy: so it's more of the vibe or the feel where you're writing it and you're like this seems a little too... Explicit. I feel like I have to be too verbose. It just doesn't feel natural for me to write this. [00:07:53] David: Right, it's not optimized for what in my mind is the obvious case. And maybe that's not the obvious case for the people that write Go programs. But for me, like, I just want to like get this endpoint and get the JSON back as a map. Not any easier than any other case, right? Whereas like in Ruby, right? And you can, I think if you include net HTTP, you can just type get. And it will just return whatever that is. Like, that's amazing. It's optimized for what I think is a very common use case. So it makes me feel really productive. It makes me feel pretty good. And if that doesn't work out long term, I can always use something more complicated. But I'm not required to dig into the NetHttp library just to do what in my mind is something very simple. [00:08:37] Jeremy: Yeah, I think that's something I've noticed myself in working with Ruby. I mean, you have the standard library that's very... Comprehensive and the API surface is such that, like you said there, when you're trying to do common tasks, a lot of times they have a call you make and it kind of does the thing you expected or hoped for. [00:08:56] David: Yeah, yeah. It's kind of, I mean, it's that whole optimized for programmer happiness thing. Like it does. That is the vibe of Ruby and it seems like that is still the way things are. And, you know, I, I suppose if I had a different mindset, I mean, because I work with developers who did not like using Ruby or Rails. They loved using Go or Java. And I, I guess there's probably some psychological analysis we could do about their background and history and mindset that makes that make sense. But, to me, I don't know. It's, it's nice when it's pleasant. And Ruby seems pleasant. (laughs) Choosing Technology [00:09:27] Jeremy: as a... Software Architect, or as a CTO, when, when you're choosing technology, what are some of the things you look at in terms of, you know? [00:09:38] David: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, it's a weird criteria, but I think what is something that the team is capable of executing with? Because, like, most, right, most programming languages all kind of do the same thing. Like, you can kind of get most stuff done in most common popular programming languages. So, it's probably not... It's not true that if you pick the wrong language, you can't build the app. Like, that's probably not really the case. At least for like a web app or something. so it's more like, what is the team that's here to do it? What are they comfortable and capable of doing? I worked on a project with... It was a mix of like junior engineers who knew JavaScript, and then some senior engineers from Google. And for whatever reason someone had chosen a Rails app and none of them were comfortable or really yet competent with doing Ruby on Rails and they just all hated it and like it didn't work very well. Um, and so even though, yes, Rails is a good choice for doing stuff for that team at that moment. Not a good choice. Right. So I think you have to go in and like, what, what are we going to be able to execute on so that when the business wants us to do something, we just do it. And we don't complain and we don't say, Oh, well we can't because this technology that we chose, blah, blah, blah. Like you don't ever want to say that if possible. So I think that's. That's kind of the, the top thing. I think second would be how widely supported is it? Like you don't want to be the cutting edge user that's finding all the bugs in something really. Like you want to use something that's stable. Postgres, MySQL, like those work, those are fine. The bugs have been sorted out for most common use cases. Some super fancy edge database, I don't know if I'd want to be doing, doing that you know? Choosing cloud services [00:11:15] Jeremy: How do you feel about the cloud specific services and databases? Like are you comfortable saying like, oh, I'm going to use... Google Cloud, BigQuery. Yeah. [00:11:27] David: That sort of thing. I think it would kind of fall under the same criteria that I was just, just saying like, so with AWS it's interesting 'cause when we moved from Heroku to AWS by EC2 RDS, their database thing, uh, S3, those have been around for years, probably those are gonna work, but they always introduce new things. Like we, we use RabbitMQ and AWS came out with. Some, I forget what it was, it was a queuing service similar to Rabbit. We were like, Oh, maybe we should switch to that. But it was clear that they weren't really ready to support it. So. Yeah, so we didn't, we didn't switch to that. So I, you gotta try to read the tea leaves of the provider to see are they committed to, to supporting this thing or is this there to get some enterprise client to move into the cloud. And then the idea is to move off of that transitional thing into what they do support. And it's hard to get a clear answer from them too. So it takes a little bit of research to figure out, Are they going to support this or not? Because that's what you don't want. To move everything into some very proprietary cloud system and have them sunset it and say, Oh yeah, now you've got to switch again. Uh, that kind of sucks. So, it's a little trickier. [00:12:41] Jeremy: And what kind of questions or research do you do? Is it purely a function of this thing has existed for X number of years so I feel okay? [00:12:52] David: I mean, it's kind of similar to looking at like some gem you're going to add to your project, right? So you'll, you'll look at how often does it change? Is it being updated? Uh, what is the documentation? Does it look like someone really cared about the documentation? Does the documentation look updated? Are there issues with it that are being addressed or, or not? Um, so those are good signals. I think, talking to other practitioners too can be good. Like if you've got someone who's experienced. You can say, hey, do you know anybody back channeling through, like, everybody knows somebody that works at AWS, you can probably try to get something there. at Stitch Fix, we had an enterprise support contract, and so your account manager will sometimes give you good information if you ask. Again, it's a, they're not going to come out and say, don't use this product that we have, but they might communicate that in a subtle way. So you have to triangulate from all these sources to try to. to try to figure out what, what you want to do. [00:13:50] Jeremy: Yeah, it kind of makes me wish that there was a, a site like, maybe not quite like, can I use, right? Can I use, you can see like, oh, can I use this in my browser? Is there, uh, like an AWS or a Google Cloud? Can I trust this? Can I trust this? Yeah. Is this, is this solid or not? [00:14:04] David: Right, totally. It's like, there's that, that site where you, it has all the Apple products and it says whether or not you should buy it because one may or may not be coming out or they may be getting rid of it. Like, yeah, that would... For cloud services, that would be, that would be nice. [00:14:16] Jeremy: Yeah, yeah. That's like the Mac Buyer's Guide. And then we, we need the, uh, the technology. Yeah. Maybe not buyers. Cloud Provider Buyer's Guide, yeah. I guess we are buyers. [00:14:25] David: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. [00:14:27] Jeremy: it's interesting that you, you mentioned how you want to see that, okay, this thing is mature. I think it's going to stick around because, I, interviewed, someone who worked on, I believe it was the CloudWatch team. Okay. Daniel Vassalo, yeah. so he left AWS, uh, after I think about 10 years, and then he wrote a book called, uh, The Good Parts of AWS. Oh! And, if you read his book, most of the services he says to use are the ones that are, like, old. Yeah. He's, he's basically saying, like, S3, you know you're good. Yeah. Right? but then all these, if you look at the AWS webpage, they have who knows, I don't know how many hundreds of services. Yeah. He's, he's kind of like I worked there and I would not use, you know, all these new services. 'cause I myself, I don't trust [00:15:14] David: it yet. Right. And so, and they're working there? Yeah, they're working there. Yeah. No. One of the VPs at Stitch Fix had worked on Google Cloud and so when we were doing this transition from Heroku, he was like, we are not using Google Cloud. I was like, really? He's like AWS is far ahead of the game. Do not use Google Cloud. I was like, all right, I don't need any more info. You work there. You said don't. I'm gonna believe you. So [00:15:36] Jeremy: what, what was his did he have like a core point? [00:15:39] David: Um, so he never really had anything bad to say about Google per se. Like I think he enjoyed his time there and I think he thought highly of who he worked with and what he worked on and that sort of thing. But his, where he was coming from was like AWS was so far ahead. of Google on anything that we would use, he was like, there's, there's really no advantage to, to doing it. AWS is a known quantity, right? it's probably still the case. It's like, you know, you've heard the nobody ever got fired for using IBM or using Microsoft or whatever the thing is. Like, I think that's, that was kind of the vibe. And he was like, moving all of our infrastructure right before we're going to go public. This is a serious business. We should just use something that we know will work. And he was like, I know this will work. I'm not confident about. Google, uh, for our use case. So we shouldn't, we shouldn't risk it. So I was like, okay, I trust you because I didn't know anything about any of that stuff at the time. I knew Heroku and that was it. So, yeah. [00:16:34] Jeremy: I don't know if it's good or bad, but like you said, AWS seems to be the default choice. Yeah. And I mean, there's people who use Azure. I assume it's mostly primarily Microsoft. Yeah. And then there's Google Cloud. It's not really clear why you would pick it, unless there was a specific service or something that only they had. [00:16:55] David: Yeah, yeah. Or you're invested in Google, you know, you want to keep everything there. I mean, I don't know. I haven't really been at that level to make that kind of decision, and I would probably choose AWS for the reasons discussed, but, yeah. Moving off Heroku [00:17:10] Jeremy: And then, so at Stitch Fix, you said you moved off of Heroku [00:17:16] David: yeah. Yeah, so we were heavy into Heroku. I think that we were told that at one point we had the biggest Heroku Postgres database on their platform. Not a good place to be, right? You never want to be the biggest customer person, usually. but the problem we were facing was essentially we were going to go public. And to do that, you're under all the scrutiny. about many things, including the IT systems and the security around there. So, like, by default, a Postgres, a Heroku Postgres database is, like, on the internet. It's only secured by the password. all their services are on the internet. So, not, not ideal. they were developing their private cloud service at that time. And so that would have given us, in theory, on paper, it would have solved all of our problems. And we liked Heroku and we liked the developer experience. It was great. but... Heroku private spaces, it was still early. There's a lot of limitations that when they explained why those limitations, they were reasonable. And if we had. started from scratch on Heroku Private Spaces. It probably would have worked great, but we hadn't. So we just couldn't make it work. So we were like, okay, we're going to have to move to AWS so that everything can be basically off the internet. Like our public website needs to be on the internet and that's kind of it. So we need to, so that's basically was the, was the impetus for that. but it's too bad because I love Heroku. It was great. I mean, they were, they were a great partner. They were great. I think if Stitch Fix had started life a year later, Private Spaces. Now it's, it's, it's way different than it was then. Cause it's been, it's a mature product now, so we could have easily done that, but you know, the timing didn't work out, unfortunately. [00:18:50] Jeremy: And that was a compliance thing to, [00:18:53] David: Yeah. And compliance is weird cause they don't tell you what to do, but they give you some parameters that you need to meet. And so one of them is like how you control access. So, so going public, the compliance is around the financial data and. Ensuring that the financial data is accurate. So a lot of the systems at Stichfix were storing the financial data. We, you know, the warehouse management system was custom made. Uh, all the credit card processing was all done, like it was all in some databases that we had running in Heroku. And so those needed to be subject to stricter security than we could achieve with just a single password that we just had to remember to rotate when someone like left the team. So that was, you know, the kind of, the kind of impetus for, for all of that. [00:19:35] Jeremy: when you were using Heroku, Salesforce would have already owned it then. Did you, did you get any sense that you weren't really sure about the future of the platform while you're on it or, [00:19:45] David: At that time, no, it seemed like they were still innovating. So like, Heroku has a Redis product now. They didn't at the time we wish that they did. They told us they're working on it, but it wasn't ready. We didn't like using the third parties. Kafka was not a thing. We very much were interested in that. We would have totally used it if it was there. So they were still. Like doing bigger innovations then, then it seems like they are now. I don't know. It's weird. Like they're still there. They still make money, I assume for Salesforce. So it doesn't feel like they're going away, but they're not innovating at the pace that they were kind of back in the day. [00:20:20] Jeremy: it used to feel like when somebody's asking, I want to host a Rails app. Then you would say like, well, use Heroku because it's basically the easiest to get started. It's a known quantity and it's, it's expensive, but, it seemed for, for most people, it was worth it. and then now if I talk to people, it's like. Not what people suggest anymore. [00:20:40] David: Yeah, because there's, there's actual competitors. It's crazy to me that there was no competitors for years, and now there's like, Render and Fly. io seem to be the two popular alternatives. Um, I doubt they're any cheaper, honestly, but... You get a sense, right, that they're still innovating, still building those platforms, and they can build with, you know, all of the knowledge of what has come before them, and do things differently that might, that might help. So, I still use Heroku for personal things just because I know it, and I, you know, sometimes you don't feel like learning a new thing when you just want to get something done, but, yeah, I, I don't know if we were starting again, I don't know, maybe I'd look into those things. They, they seem like they're getting pretty mature and. Heroku's resting on its laurels, still. [00:21:26] Jeremy: I guess I never quite the mindset, right? Where you You have a platform that's doing really well and people really like it and you acquire it and then it just It seems like you would want to keep it rolling, right? (laughs) [00:21:38] David: Yeah, it's, it is wild, I mean, I guess... Why did you, what was Salesforce thinking they were going to get? Uh, who knows maybe the person at Salesforce that really wanted to purchase it isn't there. And so no one at Salesforce cares about it. I mean, there's all these weird company politics that like, who knows what's going on and you could speculate. all day. What's interesting is like, there's definitely some people in the Ruby community who work there and still are working there. And that's like a little bit of a canary for me. I'm like, all right, well, if that person's still working there, that person seems like they're on the level and, and, and, and seems pretty good. They're still working there. It, it's gotta be still a cool place to be or still doing something, something good. But, yeah, I don't know. I would, I would love to know what was going on in all the Salesforce meetings about acquiring that, how to manage it. What are their plans for it? I would love to know that stuff. [00:22:29] Jeremy: maybe you had some experience with this at Stitch Fix But I've heard with Heroku some of their support staff at least in the past they would, to some extent, actually help you troubleshoot, like, what's going on with your app. Like, if your app is, like, using a whole bunch of memory, and you're out of memory, um, they would actually kind of look into that, for you, which is interesting, because it's like, that's almost like a services thing than it is just a platform. [00:22:50] David: Yeah. I mean, they, their support, you would get, you would get escalated to like an engineer sometimes, like who worked on that stuff and they would help figure out what the problem was. Like you got the sense that everybody there really wanted the platform to be good and that they were all sort of motivated to make sure that everybody. You know, did well and used the platform. And they also were good at, like a thing that trips everybody up about Heroku is that your app restarts every day. And if you don't know anything about anything, you might think that is stupid. Why, why would I want that? That's annoying. And I definitely went through that and I complained to them a lot. And I'm like, if you only could not restart. And they very patiently and politely explained to me why that it needed to do that, they weren't going to remove that, and how to think about my app given that reality, right? Which is great because like, what company does that, right? From the engineers that are working on it, like No, nobody does that. So, yeah, no, I haven't escalated anything to support at Heroku in quite some time, so I don't know if it's still like that. I hope it is, but I'm not really, not really sure. Building a platform team [00:23:55] Jeremy: Yeah, that, uh, that reminds me a little bit of, I think it's Rackspace? There's, there's, like, another hosting provider that was pretty popular before, and they... Used to be famous for that type of support, where like your, your app's having issues and somebody's actually, uh, SSHing into your box and trying to figure out like, okay, what's going on? which if, if that's happening, then I, I can totally see where the, the price is justified. But if the support is kind of like dropping off to where it's just, they don't do that kind of thing, then yeah, I can see why it's not so much of a, yeah, [00:24:27] David: We used to think of Heroku as like they were the platform team before we had our own platform team and they, they acted like it, which was great. [00:24:35] Jeremy: Yeah, I don't have, um, experience with, render, but I, I, I did, talk to someone from there, and it does seem like they're, they're trying to fill that role, um, so, yeah, hopefully, they and, and other companies, I guess like Vercel and things like that, um, they're, they're all trying to fill that space, [00:24:55] David: Yeah, cause, cause building our own internal platform, I mean it was the right thing to do, but it's, it's a, you can't just, you have to have a team on it, it's complicated, getting all the stuff in AWS to work the way you want it to work, to have it be kind of like Heroku, like it's not trivial. if I'm a one person company, I don't want to be messing around with that particularly. I want to just have it, you know, push it up and have it go and I'm willing to pay for that. So it seems logical that there would be competitors in that space. I'm glad there are. Hopefully that'll light a fire under, under everybody. [00:25:26] Jeremy: so in your case, it sounds like you moved to having your own platform team and stuff like that, uh, partly because of the compliance thing where you're like, we need our, we need to be isolated from the internet. We're going to go to AWS. If you didn't have that requirement, do you still think like that would have been the time to, to have your own platform team and manage that all yourself? [00:25:46] David: I don't know. We, we were thinking an issue that we were running into when we got bigger, um, was that, I mean, Heroku, it, It's obviously not as flexible as AWS, but it is still very flexible. And so we had a lot of internal documentation about this is how you use Heroku to do X, Y, and Z. This is how you set up a Stitch Fix app for Heroku. Like there was just the way that we wanted it to be used to sort of. Just make it all manageable. And so we were considering having a team spun up to sort of add some tooling around that to sort of make that a little bit easier for everybody. So I think there may have been something around there. I don't know if it would have been called a platform team. Maybe we call, we thought about calling it like developer happiness or because you got developer experience or something. We, we probably would have had something there, but. I do wonder how easy it would have been to fund that team with developers if we hadn't had these sort of business constraints around there. yeah, um, I don't know. You get to a certain size, you need some kind of manageability and consistency no matter what you're using underneath. So you've got to have, somebody has to own it to make sure that it's, that it's happening. [00:26:50] Jeremy: So even at your, your architect level, you still think it would have been a challenge to, to. Come to the executive team and go like, I need funding to build this team. [00:27:00] David: You know, certainly it's a challenge because everybody, you know, right? Nobody wants to put developers in anything, right? There are, there are a commodity and I mean, that is kind of the job of like, you know, the staff engineer or the architect at a company is you don't have, you don't have the power to put anybody on anything you, you have the power to Schedule a meeting with a VP or the CTO and they will listen to you. And that's basically, you've got to use that power to convince them of what you want done. And they're all reasonable people, but they're balancing 20 other priorities. So it would, I would have had to, it would have been a harder case to make that, Hey, I want to take three engineers. And have them write tooling to make Heroku easier to use. What? Heroku is not easy to use. Why aren't, you know, so you really, I would, it would be a little bit more of a stretch to walk them through it. I think a case could be made, but, definitely would take some more, more convincing than, than what was needed in our case. [00:27:53] Jeremy: Yeah. And I guess if you're able to contrast that with, you were saying, Oh, I need three people to help me make Heroku easier. Your actual platform team on AWS, I imagine was much larger, right? [00:28:03] David: Initially it was, there was, it was three people did the initial move over. And so by the time we went public, we'd been on this new system for, I don't know, six to nine months. I can't remember exactly. And so at that time the platform team was four or five people, and I, I mean, so percentage wise, right, the engineering team was maybe almost 200, 150, 200. So percentage wise, maybe a little small, I don't know. but it kind of gets back to the power of like the rails and the one person framework. Like everything we did was very much the same And so the Rails app that managed the deployment was very simple. The, the command line app, even the Go one with all of its verbosity was very, very simple. so it was pretty easy for that small team to manage. but, Yeah, so it was sort of like for redundancy, we probably needed more than three or four people because you know, somebody goes out sick or takes a vacation. That's a significant part of the team. But in terms of like just managing the complexity and building it and maintaining it, like it worked pretty well with, you know, four or five people. Where Rails fits in vs other technology [00:29:09] Jeremy: So during the Keynote today, they were talking about how companies like GitHub and Shopify and so on, they're, they're using Rails and they're, they're successful and they're fairly large. but I think the thing that was sort of unsaid was the fact that. These companies, while they use Rails, they use a lot of other, technology as well. And, and, and kind of increasing amounts as well. So, I wonder from your perspective, either from your experience at StitchFix or maybe going forward, what is the role that, that Ruby and Rails plays? Like, where does it make sense for that to be used versus like, Okay, we need to go and build something in Java or, you know, or Go, that sort of thing? [00:29:51] David: right. I mean, I think for like your standard database backed web app, it's obviously great. especially if your sort of mindset bought into server side rendering, it's going to be great at that. so like internal tools, like the customer service dashboard or... You know, something for like somebody who works at a company to use. Like, it's really great because you can go super fast. You're not going to be under a lot of performance constraints. So you kind of don't even have to think about it. Don't even have to solve it. You can, but you don't have to, where it wouldn't work, I guess, you know, if you have really strict performance. Requirements, you know, like a, a Go version of some API server is going to use like percentages of what, of what Rails would use. If that's meaningful, if what you're spending on memory or compute is, is meaningful, then, then yeah. That, that becomes worthy of consideration. I guess if you're, you know, if you're making a mobile app, you probably need to make a mobile app and use those platforms. I mean, I guess you can wrap a Rails app sort of, but you're still making, you still need to make a mobile app, that does something. yeah. And then, you know, interestingly, the data science part of Stitch Fix was not part of the engineering team. They were kind of a separate org. I think Ruby and Rails was probably the only thing they didn't use over there. Like all the ML stuff, everything is either Java or Scala or Python. They use all that stuff. And so, yeah, if you want to do AI and ML with Ruby, you, it's, it's hard cause there's just not a lot there. You really probably should use Python. It'll make your life easier. so yeah, those would be some of the considerations, I guess. [00:31:31] Jeremy: Yeah, so I guess in the case of, ML, Python, certainly, just because of the, the ecosystem, for maybe making a command line application, maybe Go, um, Go or Rust, perhaps, [00:31:44] David: Right. Cause you just get a single binary. Like the problem, I mean, I wrote this book on Ruby command line apps and the biggest problem is like, how do I get the Ruby VM to be anywhere so that it can then run my like awesome scripts? Like that's kind of a huge pain. (laughs) So [00:31:59] Jeremy: and then you said, like, if it's Very performance sensitive, which I am kind of curious in, in your experience with the companies you've worked at, when you're taking on a project like that, do you know up front where you're like, Oh, the CPU and memory usage is going to be a problem, or is it's like you build it and you're like, Oh, this isn't working. So now I know. [00:32:18] David: yeah, I mean, I, I don't have a ton of great experience there at Stitch Fix. The biggest expense the company had was the inventory. So like the, the cost of AWS was just de minimis compared to all that. So nobody ever came and said, Hey, you've got to like really save costs on, on that stuff. Cause it just didn't really matter. at the, the mental health startup I was at, it was too early. But again, the labor costs were just far, far exceeded the amount of money I was spending on, on, um, you know, compute and infrastructure and stuff like that. So, Not knowing anything, I would probably just sort of wait and see if it's a problem. But I suppose you always take into account, like, what am I actually building? And like, what does this business have to scale to, to make it worthwhile? And therefore you can kind of do a little bit of planning ahead there. But, I dunno, I think it would kind of have to depend. [00:33:07] Jeremy: There's a sort of, I guess you could call it a meme, where people say like, Oh, it's, it's not, it's not Rails that's slow, it's the, the database that's slow. And, uh, I wonder, is that, is that accurate in your experience, or, [00:33:20] David: I mean, most of the stuff that we had that was slow was the database, because like, it's really easy to write a crappy query in Rails if you're not, if you're not careful, and then it's really easy to design a database that doesn't have any indexes if you're not careful. Like, you, you kind of need to know that, But of course, those are easy to fix too, because you just add the index, especially if it's before the database gets too big where we're adding indexes is problematic. But, I think those are just easy performance mistakes to make. Uh, especially with Rails because you're not, I mean, a lot of the Rails developers at Citrix did not know SQL at all. I mean, they had to learn it eventually, but they didn't know it at all. So they're not even knowing that what they're writing could possibly be problematic. It's just, you're writing it the Rails way and it just kind of works. And at a small scale, it does. And it doesn't matter until, until one day it does. [00:34:06] Jeremy: And then in, in the context of, let's say, using ActiveRecord and instantiating the objects, or, uh, the time it takes to render templates, that kinds of things, to, at least in your experience, that wasn't such of an issue. [00:34:20] David: No, and it was always, I mean, whenever we looked at why something was slow, it was always the database and like, you know, you're iterating over some active records and then, and then, you know, you're going into there and you're just following this object graph. I've got a lot of the, a lot of the software at Stitch Fix was like internal stuff and it was visualizing complicated data out of the database. And so if you didn't think about it, you would just start dereferencing and following those relationships and you have this just massive view and like the HTML is fine. It's just that to render this div, you're. Digging into some active record super deep. and so, you know, that was usually the, the, the problems that we would see and they're usually easy enough to fix by making an index or. Sometimes you do some caching or something like that. and that solved most of the, most of the issues [00:35:09] Jeremy: The different ways people learn [00:35:09] Jeremy: so you're also the author of the book, Sustainable Web Development with Ruby on Rails. And when you talk to people about like how they learn things, a lot of them are going on YouTube, they're going on, uh, you know, looking for blogs and things like that. And so as an author, what do you think the role is of, of books now? Yeah, [00:35:29] David: I have thought about this a lot, because I, when I first got started, I'm pretty old, so books were all you had, really. Um, so they seem very normal and natural to me, but... does someone want to sit down and read a 400 page technical book? I don't know. so Dave Thomas who runs Pragmatic Bookshelf, he was on a podcast and was asked the same question and basically his answer, which is my answer, is like a long form book is where you can really lay out your thinking, really clarify what you mean, really take the time to develop sometimes nuanced, examples or nuanced takes on something that are Pretty hard to do in a short form video or in a blog post. Because the expectation is, you know, someone sends you an hour long YouTube video, you're probably not going to watch that. Two minute YouTube video is sure, but you can't, you can't get into so much, kind of nuanced detail. And so I thought that was, was right. And that was kind of my motivation for writing. I've got some thoughts. They're too detailed. It's, it's too much set up for a blog post. There's too much of a nuanced element to like, really get across. So I need to like, write more. And that means that someone's going to have to read more to kind of get to it. But hopefully it'll be, it'll be valuable. one of the sessions that we're doing later today is Ruby content creators, where it's going to be me and Noel Rappin and Dave Thomas representing the old school dudes that write books and probably a bunch of other people that do, you know, podcasts videos. It'd be interesting to see, I really want to know how do people learn stuff? Because if no one reads books to learn things, then there's not a lot of point in doing it. But if there is value, then, you know. It should be good and should be accessible to people. So, that's why I do it. But I definitely recognize maybe I'm too old and, uh, I'm not hip with the kids or, or whatever, whatever the case is. I don't know. [00:37:20] Jeremy: it's tricky because, I think it depends on where you are in the process of learning that thing. Because, let's say, you know a fair amount about the technology already. And you look at a book, in a lot of cases it's, it's sort of like taking you from nothing to something. And so you're like, well, maybe half of this isn't relevant to me, but then if I don't read it, then I'm probably missing a lot still. And so you're in this weird in be in between zone. Another thing is that a lot of times when people are trying to learn something, they have a specific problem. And, um, I guess with, with books, it's, you kind of don't know for sure if the thing you're looking for is going to be in the book. [00:38:13] David: I mean, so my, so my book, I would not say as a beginner, it's not a book to learn how to do Rails. It's like you already kind of know Rails and you want to like learn some comprehensive practices. That's what my book is for. And so sometimes people will ask me, I don't know Rails, should I get your book? And I'm like, no, you should not. but then you have the opposite thing where like the agile web development with Rails is like the beginner version. And some people are like, Oh, it's being updated for Rails 7. Should I get it? I'm like, probably not because How to go from zero to rails hasn't changed a lot in years. There's not that much that's going to be new. but, how do you know that, right? Hopefully the Table of Contents tells you. I mean, the first book I wrote with Pragmatic, they basically were like, The Table of Contents is the only thing the reader, potential reader is going to have to have any idea what's in the book. So, You need to write the table of contents with that in mind, which may not be how you'd write the subsections of a book, but since you know that it's going to serve these dual purposes of organizing the book, but also being promotional material that people can read, you've got to keep that in mind, because otherwise, how does anybody, like you said, how does anybody know what's, what's going to be in there? And they're not cheap, I mean, these books are 50 bucks sometimes, and That's a lot of money for people in the U. S. People outside the U. S. That's a ton of money. So you want to make sure that they know what they're getting and don't feel ripped off. [00:39:33] Jeremy: Yeah, I think the other challenge is, at least what I've heard, is that... When people see a video course, for whatever reason, they, they set, like, a higher value to it. They go, like, oh, this video course is, 200 dollars and it's, like, seems like a lot of money, but for some people it's, like, okay, I can do that. But then if you say, like, oh, this, this book I've been researching for five years, uh, I want to sell it for a hundred bucks, people are going to be, like no. No way., [00:40:00] David: Yeah. Right. A hundred bucks for a book. There's no way. That's a, that's a lot. Yeah. I mean, producing video, I've thought about doing video content, but it seems so labor intensive. Um, and it's kind of like, It's sort of like a performance. Like I was mentioning before we started that I used to play in bands and like, there's a lot to go into making an even mediocre performance. And so I feel like, you know, video content is the same way. So I get that it like, it does cost more to produce, but, are you getting more information out of it? I, that, I don't know, like maybe not, but who knows? I mean, people learn things in different ways. So, [00:40:35] Jeremy: It's just like this perception thing, I think. And, uh, I'm not sure why that is. Um, [00:40:40] David: Yeah, maybe it's newer, right? Maybe books feel older so they're easier to make and video seems newer. I mean, I don't know. I would love to talk to engineers who are like... young out of college, a few years into their career to see what their perception of this stuff is. Cause I mean, there was no, I mean, like I said, I read books cause that's all there was. There was no, no videos. You, you go to a conference and you read a book and that was, that was all you had. so I get it. It seems a whole video. It's fancier. It's newer. yeah, I don't know. I would love to hear a wide variety of takes on it to see what's actually the, the future, you know? [00:41:15] Jeremy: sure, yeah. I mean, I think it probably can't just be one or the other, right? Like, I think there are... Benefits of each way. Like, if you have the book, you can read it at your own pace without having to, like, scroll through the video, and you can easily copy and paste the, the code segments, [00:41:35] David: Search it. Go back and forth. [00:41:36] Jeremy: yeah, search it. So, I think there's a place for it, but yeah, I think it would be very interesting, like you said, to, to see, like, how are people learning, [00:41:45] David: Right. Right. Yeah. Well, it's the same with blogs and podcasts. Like I, a lot of podcasters I think used to be bloggers and they realized that like they can get out what they need by doing a podcast. And it's way easier because it's more conversational. You don't have to do a bunch of research. You don't have to do a bunch of editing. As long as you're semi coherent, you can just have a conversation with somebody and sort of get at some sort of thing that you want to talk about or have an opinion about. And. So you, you, you see a lot more podcasts and a lot less blogs out there because of that. So it's, that's kind of like the creators I think are kind of driving that a little bit. yeah. So I don't know. [00:42:22] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I can, I can say for myself, the thing about podcasts is that it's something that I can listen to while I'm doing something else. And so you sort of passively can hopefully pick something up out of that conversation, but... Like, I think it's maybe not so good at the details, right? Like, if you're talking code, you can talk about it over voice, but can you really visualize it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if you sit down and you try to implement something somebody talked about, you're gonna be like, I don't know what's happening. [00:42:51] David: Yeah. [00:42:52] Jeremy: So, uh, so, so I think there's like these, these different roles I think almost for so like maybe you know the podcast is for you to Maybe get some ideas or get some familiarity with a thing and then when you're ready to go deeper You can go look at a blog post or read a book I think video kind of straddles those two where sometimes video is good if you want to just see, the general concept of a thing, and have somebody explain it to you, maybe do some visuals. that's really good. but then it can also be kind of detailed, where, especially like the people who stream their process, right, you can see them, Oh, let's, let's build this thing together. You can ask me questions, you can see how I think. I think that can be really powerful. at the same time, like you said, it can be hard to say, like, you know, I look at some of the streams and it's like, oh, this is a three hour stream and like, well, I mean, I'm interested. I'm interested, but yeah, it's hard enough for me to sit through a, uh, a three hour movie, [00:43:52] David: Well, then that, and that gets into like, I mean, we're, you know, we're at a conference and they, they're doing something a little, like, there are conference talks at this conference, but there's also like. sort of less defined activities that aren't a conference talk. And I think that could be a reaction to some of this too. It's like I could watch a conference talk on, on video. How different is that going to be than being there in person? maybe it's not that different. Maybe, maybe I don't need to like travel across the country to go. Do something that I could see on video. So there's gotta be something here that, that, that meets that need that I can't meet any other way. So it's all these different, like, I would like to think that's how it is, right? All this media all is a part to play and it's all going to kind of continue and thrive and it's not going to be like, Oh, remember books? Like maybe, but hopefully not. Hopefully it's like, like what you're saying. Like it's all kind of serving different purposes that all kind of work together. Yeah. [00:44:43] Jeremy: I hope that's the case, because, um, I don't want to have to scroll through too many videos. [00:44:48] David: Yeah. The video's not for me. Large Language Models [00:44:50] Jeremy: I, I like, I actually do find it helpful, like, like I said, for the high level thing, or just to see someone's thought process, but it's like, if you want to know a thing, and you have a short amount of time, maybe not the best, um, of course, now you have all the large language model stuff where you like, you feed the video in like, Hey, tell, tell, tell me, uh, what this video is about and give me the code snippets and all that stuff. I don't know how well it works, but it seems [00:45:14] David: It's gotta get better. Cause you go to a support site and they're like, here's how to fix your problem, and it's a video. And I'm like, can you just tell me? But I'd never thought about asking the AI to just look at the video and tell me. So yeah, it's not bad. [00:45:25] Jeremy: I think, that's probably where we're going. So it's, uh, it's a little weird to think about, but, [00:45:29] David: yeah, yeah. I was just updating, uh, you know, like I said, I try to keep the book updated when new versions of Rails come out, so I'm getting ready to update it for Rails 7. 1 and in Amazon's, Kindle Direct Publishing as their sort of backend for where you, you know, publish like a Kindle book and stuff, and so they added a new question, was AI used in the production of this thing or not? And if you answer yes, they want you to say how much, And I don't know what they're gonna do with that exactly, but I thought it was pretty interesting, cause I would be very disappointed to pay 50 for a book that the AI wrote, right? So it's good that they're asking that? Yeah. [00:46:02] Jeremy: I think the problem Amazon is facing is where people wholesale have the AI write the book, and the person either doesn't review it at all, or maybe looks at a little, a little bit. And, I mean, the, the large language model stuff is very impressive, but If you have it generate a technical book for you, it's not going to be good. [00:46:22] David: yeah. And I guess, cause cause like Amazon, I mean, think about like Amazon scale, like they're not looking at the book at all. Like I, I can go click a button and have my book available and no person's going to look at it. they might scan it or something maybe with looking for bad words. I don't know, but there's no curation process there. So I could, yeah. I could see where they could have that, that kind of problem. And like you as the, as the buyer, you don't necessarily, if you want to book on something really esoteric, there are a lot of topics I wish there was a book on that there isn't. And as someone generally want to put it on Amazon, I could see a lot of people buying it, not realizing what they're getting and feeling ripped off when it was not good. [00:47:00] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know, if it's an issue with the, the technical stuff. It probably is. But I, I know they've definitely had problems where, fiction, they have people just generating hundreds, thousands of books, submitting them all, just flooding it. [00:47:13] David: Seeing what happens. [00:47:14] Jeremy: And, um, I think that's probably... That's probably the main reason why they ask you, cause they want you to say like, uh, yeah, you said it wasn't. And so now we can remove your book. [00:47:24] David: right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:26] Jeremy: I mean, it's, it's not quite the same, but it's similar to, I don't know what Stack Overflow's policy is now, but, when the large language model stuff started getting big, they had a lot of people answering the questions that were just. Pasting the question into the model [00:47:41] David: Which because they got it from [00:47:42] Jeremy: and then [00:47:43] David: The Got model got it from Stack Overflow. [00:47:45] Jeremy: and then pasting the answer into Stack Overflow and the person is not checking it. Right. So it's like, could be right, could not be right. Um, cause, cause to me, it's like, if, if you generate it, if you generate the answer and the answer is right, and you checked it, I'm okay with that. [00:48:00] David: Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:01] Jeremy: but if you're just like, I, I need some karma, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer these questions with, with this bot, I mean, then maybe [00:48:08] David: I could have done that. You're not adding anything. Yeah, yeah. [00:48:11] Jeremy: it's gonna be a weird, weird world, I think. [00:48:12] David: Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. [00:48:15] Jeremy: that's a, a good place to end it on, but is there anything else you want to mention, [00:48:19] David: No, I think we covered it all just yeah, you could find me online. I'm Davetron5000 on Ruby. social Mastodon, I occasionally post on Twitter, but not that much anymore. So Mastodon's a place to go. [00:48:31] Jeremy: David, thank you so much [00:48:32] David: All right. Well, thanks for having me.

Tom welcomes to the show a long time Traction member, David Hayes, who shares his journey to real estate investing, rehabbing vs wholesaling properties, and why real estate investment truly was something which he couldn't afford to fail. Today, David joins the show to talk about overcoming the ‘fear of success', face-to-face negotiation tactics, and the importance of sticking to your exit strategy.Key Takeaways01:02 – Tom introduces today's guest, David Hayes, who joins the show to discuss how he had no choice but to succeed in real estate investment and the concept of ‘buying correctly'06:11 – The fear of winning09:12 – Rehabbing properties and wholesaling17:45 – To buy, or not to buy?21:06 – Face-to-face negotiation tactics23:45 – David's mindset and why he's been a Traction member for years27:46 – Being comfortable with the uncomfortable31:22 – Dealing with taxes and investing in deductions33:16 – The most impactful thing Tom has taught David and the art of conversing with others38:45 – Advice David would give to the negotiation skeptics42:31 – Advice David would give to anyone hesitating to get involved in real estate investment53:21 – Overcoming the excuses and dealing with being a ‘perfectionist'1:00:47 – Tom thanks David for joining the show and sharing his storyTweetable Quotes“Back then it wasn't so much that I was investing, but I was fine-tuning my craft. I took a lot of courses. I learned a lot of information. I learned a lot, but I didn't know how to put it into action.” (01:36) (David)“People buy courses and they invest their money in education. But, education is only part of the equation; you have to put action behind it. And if you don't put action behind it, nothing's gonna happen. And a lot of time that inaction is because of fear.” (05:38) (David)“I don't deal with motivated sellers because they don't fit my criteria. I need HIGHLY motivated sellers. I need a person that I can ask the question, ‘If you don't buy from me and I don't buy from you, what's your next move?'” (10:57) (David)“With this particular wholesale deal, I gave three different offers. The chances of getting a house when you make three offers and they make sense is very high. It's a lot higher than just making one offer.” (22:09) (David)“One of the things that I learned about real estate is that sometimes you have to just go out on blind faith. People don't feel comfortable with that. And, if you're not gonna do it the way people who are successful are doing it, then that means that you're gonna try to learn it your way, which is going to take more time.” (27:46) (David)“You need to know how to talk to people. And if you can talk to people and make people relax around you, then they can believe in you. And if they believe in you, then they'll listen to what you have to say. If they're not sure about you - if you go in and they don't get a good vibe from them - it takes a lot of work before you can turn around and get them to believe in you later on. So, the best thing to do is, from the minute you meet them, be very humble.” (36:16) (David)“You have to know what your goal is. And based off your goal, you'll know what you need to do. So, if you need immediate cash, then you want to wholesale. If you want to develop legacy money, then you want to buy cheap. Sometimes it requires a combination of the two.” (44:50) (David)“When you buy something, know what your exit strategy is before you buy and stick to it.” (50:04) (David)Guest ResourcesTom's...

In the studio today is David Leon, Director of Workforce Programs at the Virginia Department for Aging and Rehabilitative Services (DARS), and Kate Kaegi, Project Manager for the DIF. In recognition of Disability Awareness Month, the second podcast of our DIF series includes David and Kate explaining how Virginia's DIF grant was initiated, implemented, and adjusted to best reach their initiatives of placing 750 individuals with disabilities in STEM and healthcare careers, registered apprenticeships, and State, County, and City jobs. Learn about the challenges they navigated and what they recommend when applying for a DIF grant.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} David: Don't be afraid to apply for a diff grant. It is an amazing opportunity to infuse energy and enthusiasm into your workforce. It is a chance to stretch, learn new skills, try new programs. You get to see staff flourish and more importantly, get some really cool outcomes for the clients we serve.   Kate: I was a little intimidated with the idea of RSA, but what I have found is this RSA is there to help us. They want us to succeed.   David: You can accomplish some great things.   Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is David Leon, director for workforce programs at the Virginia Department for Aging and Rehabilitative Services, or DARS, and Kate Kaegi, project manager for the DEP. So David, how are things going at DARS?   David: They are great. We are plugging along, working on our grant. A colleague has a SWITZI grant, so it's been neat to really try a bunch of new things here in Virginia.   Carol: Very cool. So how are you Kate?   Kate: I am doing spectacular. Thank you for having me here today.   Carol: You bet. So, David, you and I had a chance to visit in a podcast on work incentives counseling in April of 22. And just so you know, you were one of my top five downloads. And when I think of Virginia, I always think of you and all the amazing things that have been cooking all the time. You guys always have something in the hopper and this is no different. So I started a series of podcasts focused on the diff grants and career advancement, and you are the second in my series and happened to fall in October with a nod to Disability Employment Awareness Month. So I want to just give our listeners a little snippet again about the diff grant. And so this particular round, the grant activities are geared to support innovative activities aimed at improving the outcomes of individuals with disabilities. And the Career Advancement Initiative model. Demonstrations were funded in federal fiscal year 2021. They were intended to identify and demonstrate practices supported by evidence to assist eligible individuals with disabilities, including previous served participants in employment who reenter the program to do the following. They were looking at advancing in high demand, high quality careers like science, technology, engineering and math, or those Stem careers to enter career pathways in industry driven sectors through pre apprenticeships, registered apprenticeships and industry recognized apprenticeship programs to improve and maximize competitive integrated employment outcomes, economic self-sufficiency, independence and inclusion in society, and to reduce reliance on public benefits like SSI, SSDI, or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and State or local benefits. Now, I remember reading in the announcement some of that sort of I thought it was disturbing data that provided the base for why RSA picked this particular area and chose to fund it. And they based it on the program year 2019, RSA 911 data. And some of the things that they said were participants that were exiting the program in competitive integrated employment reported a median wage of 12 bucks an hour and working like 30 hours a week. And the top ten most common occupations were reported. They were like stock clerks and they were order fillers, customer service reps, janitors, cleaners. I call it the whole Food, Filth and Flowers. So I know through this initiative they were trying to do more. So let's dig into what you guys have cooking in Virginia. David, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. How did you get to VR?   David: Thanks, Carol. Started as a job coach years ago. We won't say when. It'll make me feel old, and I worked for a private nonprofit. I then assisted in Virginia, working with individuals, exiting a training center and moving towards community living. From there, I came back to the Richmond area to work for a community service board and again was a job coach and then worked within a sheltered work and day services program before coming to DARS, where I started with the Ticket to Work program and now have that the work incentives and a few grants and the workforce programs.   Carol: You and I have very similar backgrounds. I too was a job coach. I did work in a sheltered workshop for a while as well and all of that. It's always interesting how people find their way to VR. Kate, how about you? Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got to VR?   Kate: I kind of fell into this. A lot of times, similar to other people. Unexpectedly, I found out about East Carolina's rehab program and that they had a scholarship for people who wanted to get their master's. And I'm like, Oh, free money. So I jumped into that. Absolutely loved it. I did my internship at the Wilson Workforce and Rehabilitative Center. It was called something or a different title when I started back in the day. As I tell my kids, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I was there, started off there as an evaluator and then kind of moved across the state, became a rehab counselor in the field, have done transition counseling, substance abuse counseling, went back to Boca Vale for a little bit, even dipped my toes into the world of job coaching and worked with David for a period of time at the CSV, came back to DARS, worked with the Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired, and also, as an aside, also had joined the military during that timeframe on the reserve side. So I'm out of that at this point. So I have quite an eclectic background. As a supervisor once said that I couldn't make up my mind what I wanted to do, but it was all overall 24 years of work working with individuals with disabilities in a variety of areas. So it really kind of dovetailed well for me to work in the first dif grant that we received prior to this grant where I was a VMA or Virginia Manufacturing Association liaison for our grant. And when we were working on this Phase two grant, it was just pulling from what we've learned previously and growing from there. And so here I am.   Carol: I love it, it positions you really well for the work under this new grant. Very cool. Thanks for sharing that. So, David, why don't you paint us a picture of Virginia DARS How many staff do you have? About how many people are you all serving?   David: Okay, DARS comprises the Division of Rehabilitative Services, the Disability Determination Services, Aging Services. We have roughly 28 to 30 offices around the state and are currently serving just around 18,000 clients. If you include Pre-ETS in those totals.   Carol: that's a bunch., holy cow. I didn't realize you guys were that big.   David: Yeah, and that doesn't include however many cases DDS is handling or our aging or the other units. But that's a little bit about DARS, and I like to say we stretch from the Atlantic Ocean all the way to almost as far west as Detroit. If you go down to Bristol, Virginia, which is technically a little further than Detroit. So lots of types of environments and communities and very unique challenges in different areas.   Carol: Yeah, so you're definitely facing different geographical issues and I'm sure probably even economic differences. You know, if you're talking the coast versus maybe more of a rural area. So I'm sure there's probably some challenges there with even getting providers or how you're providing services.   David: It's interesting. One of the things we've been able to see in, for instance, Southwest Virginia, there is an economic center that's only 16 miles away from an office. But to get there, you go over three mountains and it could take two hours. So are those jobs really accessible to someone without a vehicle? On paper from Richmond, it might look like, why aren't we placing folks in this community out of that office? Well, it's a two hour drive each way, and that's the only way to do it. You mentioned at the beginning those top ten job areas. And one of the things we're really trying to challenge ourselves with now is giving people the information to make an informed decision about a career choice. But if they choose a career that might not look as great, what is the best potential version of that job? What is the job within that sector that actually could become a career? So at the beginning when we were starting to work on this, our agency had been in order of selection for years with categories closed and with the pandemic. That all changed. But the clients we were seeing didn't change and their goals didn't change. I think that's going to be a longer term conversation. But if we can do things to promote the best version of a position. And so I'll just give you one example. And our commissioner, other folks would probably say, why do we have so many folks who want jobs in food service or in this? Because typically they're low paying. Typically there's a lot of turnover. It's hard to become stable. One of the first projects we worked on in this grant was a partnership with a school nutrition program, and we've been able to help a few individuals enter into work in a kitchen at a school where they have the same hours. Monday through Friday. They have the opportunity for benefits. In one case, we couldn't find transportation. That school system was allowing the individual to take the school bus for that person. That's a really stable job and it's somewhere they can grow and thrive for years. So I do want to just say we have to think a little bit differently about what Kate or I or others might think of as a career. How do we find that best option for someone where there is room for growth, but equally important room for that time for stability to get to mastery, to then look at other skills and hopefully down the road they'd come back, not because they lost that job and need it again, but because they've learned so much that they want to go on to the next thing of their own accord.   Carol: Yeah, I like that you said that because I remember that when we visited before talking about that best version of that job. So not to mean that no one can work in kind of food, filth and flowers. I know I say that and it sounds sort of condescending and it's not meant to be. But we typically relied on kind of those occupations, really entry level. But I like that you're taking a spin on that and really looking deeper because we need folks to work in those occupations too. And there's people that love doing that work. But how like you say, can you do the best version of that? So you have benefits and you're looking at those long term like working in a school district, you can get retirement and all these different really awesome things that go with that. So, Kate, I'm going to switch to you. So big picture, break it down for us on your grant proposal and what you're hoping to accomplish with I know you had said you have three core components. Talk a little bit about that.   Kate: Sure. I do want to make a caveat that I love about this grant is it is a demonstration grant, meaning we have the opportunity to try out innovative products and projects across the state. I just want to put a caveat on that to keep that in your mind as I'm going forward here. So our main goal is to place 750 individuals with disabilities in federal, state, county, city jobs and or registered apprenticeships or also Stem and health careers. So we have those three main components on that. And when we looked at this grant and David worked on the development and the proposal for this, we really wanted to touch individuals that had been kind of missed in the first grant. And this I think, is something as we're doing a grant, you're learning all the time. And we wanted to make sure that we were hitting those unserved and underserved across the state. So individuals that aren't as plentiful in different areas. So say like Winchester has a large Hispanic population, does that reflect the number served in the actual DARS office? How do we get Spanish speaking individuals more involved in DARS? How do we get women who may only recognize those areas that you talked about that flower filth? And because that's what they're aware of, that's the work they've done in the past. So I just need another job in that area. How can we open up some possibilities? Have you thought about the IT field? Have you thought about advanced manufacturing and can you see yourself doing that? So providing those opportunities, it's a way for us to look at those unserved and underserved across the state. And we're defining that as we're going and we're looking at the census data, we're looking at who we're serving within each state. And then we're also looking at our plans, the plans that the rehab counselors are creating. What are those plans? What is the main goal? Overall we see a lot of customer service because it's kind of a catch all. What does that mean? Is that customer service as a helpdesk technician as opposed to just somebody as a receptionist? So we're really helping both the VRC, the counselor, and the candidate explore possibilities like that.   Carol: I like that. I just love what you guys are doing and really fundamentally getting down, digging in and really focusing on those folks that have been underserved or unserved and just taking that twist on the occupation because there's a wide range like within customer service, you have the job from here to here.   Kate: Exactly.   Carol: Yeah, that is very cool. Now, I know you all had some really weird hiccups in the beginning when you were starting out with this particular grant. So what were some of those kind of hiccups and how did you overcome that? And Kate, I'll probably shoot to you first on this.   Kate: So part of the thing that I didn't mention was is that the roles that our team players have. So we have a liaison with Department of Labor and Industry, specifically the registered apprenticeship side. So they have their foot in the DOLI world and the foot in the DARS world. We also have a team member who has their foot in the Department of Human Resource Management Liaison, and then also her toes are also dipping in the DARS. So we've had some different team members on that. We also have a quick response, counselor, somebody who can go in and respond to immediate needs of employers, of an individual that might be working with them, that has a disability, that might need some help, whether that's in a registered apprenticeship or on that particular job. During the first year we hired and we had everybody up and running and we had two team members, one had a medical emergency and had to move away from the position because there was some driving involved. And then unfortunately, we had Lisa Hanky, who passed away unexpectedly on us. So, you know, you get all getting that hiring going and then all of a sudden we lost two individuals, so we had to restart that process.   David: But Kate, if I can add to that, and I believe this is true for everyone in our round of this DIF funding, I believe we were told two days before the beginning of the project, it was about a day after that that, you know, many agencies coming out of the pandemic have had challenges with staffing and we had those challenges in our procurement division. So getting contracts signed, getting those staff replaced. But the other thing that has been a challenge and we're finally coming out of. We created three positions that this agency has never had, and it had meant that we had to learn how to provide quality support to two other state agencies in the context of working with DARS and similarly with our quick response counselors. So we created these positions that we had an idea of how they could work. But once someone got into those roles and was learning the other agency, we've had to be flexible in understanding how they can actually benefit our clients and our agency. And that has been a learning process.   Carol: You guys bring up a really good point because I think sometimes when folks are applying for the DIF grant, you're not recognizing off the get-go That first year can be a struggle because like you said, you found out two days before and then you get the money. And then as we know with any state government, it takes time to hire and like to get through all those processes. And so RSA may be on one hand going like spend the money and you're like, we're trying, but we've got to get through all our HR processes and all this crazy stuff. So it takes a little bit to get rolling in that first year. And I know we often on the TA world are talking with people as they're applying for grants going just know as you're going into it that first year, you're probably not going to spend the amount of funds you projected originally because there's just is a time factor and getting through all of that.   Kate: Absolutely. That was the one thought that David and I, if you know, we apply for another one down the road, maybe making that first year a little bit less intensive and spreading it out from year 2 to 5 because that's where the major work will be done.   Carol: Yeah, that's smart. Very smart. So I know you guys were talking about some challenges. What are some other particular challenges that you're experiencing right now?   Kate: Well, I'll get started on that piece. One of the things we have found similar to the staffing, the challenge that we had when we first started of hiring individuals, we're finding a turnover in staff in DARS. And so we are having a lot of younger counselors that have, in some cases don't have a rehab background. They might have a social work background. So we have a lot of training that we're doing and then redoing on that. We're having a training coming up in October for the VOC rehab counselors and we're getting kind of back to basics. What makes a good referral for our Pathways Grant, looking at those possibilities of not just that receptionist job, let's look at helpdesk. What are the opportunities that are out there? And so that has been kind of a challenge, is just retraining. And I think this is kind of normal across the board. But these rehab counselors are busy. They have a lot more documentation they have to put in Aware. There's a lot more individuals coming through their door because we have the rapid engagements, so they are overwhelmed. And how can we dovetail our services to best support them, how to make the referral process as easy as possible for them, what supports make the most sense for them? So that's been one of the interesting challenges.   Carol: So, Kate, have you guys done anything around just the way in which your staff or the support of those counselors, do you have like other staff that are kind of wrapped around them, whether you call them maybe a rehab tech or some sort of a case aide or whatever it might be that can help the counselors with sort of all the documentation requirements and that kind of thing. Have you done some work in that?   Kate: Actually, here in Virginia, we do have support. We have vocational evaluators, placement counselors and what they call employment service specialists that run the job club and things like that. And they can help support with some of the paperwork. But similar to other states that actually have like a rehab tech that would do some of the counseling or the that kind of thing, not as much. And each office is run a little bit different. That's part of the appeal. And what I mean by that is, is some of the offices might not have a vocational evaluator, some might have a placement counselor that might be covering more than one office so that there is enough differences on that piece. But yeah, that has been a struggle for keeping all of that work and getting it done for them.   Carol: Yeah, You're definitely joined by your colleagues across the country on that. I keep hearing that over and over. David did you have anything else you wanted to add to that about any of the particular challenges?   David: Yeah, I think we wrote this knowing we needed to do some things better and serve certain populations differently to get to where people had the same outcome regardless of gender, race, ethnicity. And that is still a challenge. We are learning that we have a long way to go to effectively serve those folks who have English as a second language. And when we started the project, we started with like a counselor advisory board to help not only create buy in, but inform us what the counselors needed. We have now shifted to an advisory board geared towards helping us do better with the Hispanic Latino population, and that English is a second language. So we're hoping over this next year, working with members of our state who are representative of those groups will actually help us figure out what services are going to be most likely to bring people in for help. What supports we will need to think about providing for those individuals to be successful. And again, it goes back to how do we help people see for themselves greater opportunities and careers than they might have.   Carol: So are you linked in then with your like your WIOA partners on your adult basic ed side? Like under that, you know, the English as a second language, Like they're more expert than us in working with that group?   Kate: Absolutely. One of our key partners is the Virginia Adult Learning Resource Center, who teach the adult ed, they help support them across the state when we get further along I'll talk about some of the projects that we're working with with them.   Carol: Yeah, that's excellent. I love that. So I know you guys are seeing some exciting results. What kind of exciting results are percolating up?   Kate: So one of the things that we found as we're moving forward is we actually had working with adult Ed, we had a program that we were doing Intro to IT, where we're starting a basic starting platform for accounting fundamentals, and we were ready to go. We had seven individuals in this first cohort, and one of the things we found was the individuals that we met, even though we just came through Covid with all of the tech training, we had individuals they knew enough to get on to Zoom and to do some items, but we really needed to step back and do some basic tech training. So, they had enough gaps in their knowledge that they couldn't move forward without some major help. So what happened on this is, is we stepped back and started to do some digital literacy training and they moved forward with that. And each of those individuals are now moving forward with the accounting fundamentals this summer. So stepping back, we're actually looking at what we're calling digital work skills training, which is really exciting opportunity for individuals to get started with North Star digital literacy. We're working on goal setting some soft skill development just to get them started on that end. So we have individuals that would typically not be able to go to a virtual training actually get started there. And what we're finding with that end is, is that we have some individuals, you know, those customer service people who just want to do clerical, they're getting introduced to IT. And so we've had a few individuals that have moved on to our next training, which we call the Max Career Lab. And Max Potential is an employer here in Virginia. And I think they go into other states as well, several other states. And what they are, they're a temp agency for IT employment. So they hire individuals to work with Dominion, to work with, you know, with all these employers doing various IT. But they have a unique hiring model. They actually have an opportunity where individuals come in and they go through a career lab five day, three hours a day, 15 hours of a career lab. Then they do an interview. During those five days, they do an overview of data analytics, networking, all these different career areas. So they'll do an hour and a half of overview of the career, and then they do an actual interactive activity that they break out in groups for. So it's a great way to explore the IT field. So we've hired them to actually run career labs for us. They do the 15 hours, then they get homework and then they have an interview assessment. So the interview is just like a typical interview that they run, but they follow up with what activities that they're interested in. So this has been a wonderful way for us to explore different IT areas and to help individuals determine what area of IT they want to do. Here in Virginia, we're blessed. We've got Nova, we've got a lot of IT careers, but counselors and vocal evaluators don't always know how to direct somebody into the right avenue because technology is always changing. You know, cybersecurity, cybersecurity, that's always a great one, right? Because we're right here in Nova. However, not everybody wants to do cyber. Have you thought of data analytics? Have you thought of the different networking positions? Have you thought of machine learning? You know what, all is out there? And so it's an opportunity for us to do a hands on career exploration and next steps with an actual employer running the sessions for us.   Carol: That's cool. Yeah, I hadn't heard about a career lab before like that. That is very intriguing because so many people learn much better, you know, by actually experiencing seeing what that's about because it can sound cool. You read about something like the cybersecurity was the big deal, but then you get into it and you're like, Oh, I don't really want to do that, you know? So giving them that opportunity, I think that's fabulous.   Kate: Yes, and we have had our first cohort. We had 25 people sign up. We had 22 complete the whole piece. That includes the interview.  Of that group we had six individuals. So they compare the group together, but they also compare them to the other public groups that they have across the board. So of those individuals, six are encouraged to look at direct work experience. The rest have been encouraged to do a few other activities, like maybe develop more professional skills or develop more tech training, possibly, you know, accounting fundamentals. We had one that decided they did not want to do IT training. And I'm thinking, what a great opportunity you now know what you don't want to do. And for us, that can be great, right? So we're looking at some other options for that young man. It has been a wonderful opportunity. We're now in our second cohort and our hope is, is to keep continuing this as we're going through this grant and to see how we can set this up once the grant is over.   Carol: Very cool. Have you had any surprises kind of as you've started this. I know you're in year two. Are there any surprises?   David: I think there are always surprises. This is right. Staff and surprises some of the opportunities that have come up. I don't think we anticipated. So we've shifted to take advantage. One of the big pieces of this grant is our focus on state hiring and the individual we hired for that aspect worked diligently during the first six months with them on an alternative hiring process through the legislation, had a go live date, whether we were ready or not. And what we didn't understand is during the first year, this process, it wasn't available to current state employees who may be disabled. That created a lot of issues for folks who were upset that they couldn't access this to move up within state government. We weren't able to change that ourselves, but it was changed in legislation. And starting in July of this year, we were allowed to offer a certificate of disability to someone who was currently employed and that has seen an increase. We've had roughly 1500 people request certificates of disabilities. I think part of what was surprising is what a great opportunity that has become as a referral source for DAR's. Roughly 300 individuals have chosen to get more information and receive VR services, and we are seeing that as a really nice piece of the process. Additionally, I think we finally had our first individual who went from what we call part time wage employment to full time classified, which was one of the intents of the process we developed. So it's nice to begin to see that work. But for Kate and I, we have to remind ourselves some of this might take two, three, four years before we really actually see these things that could be possible in action. And I think the other big surprise there is just how great of a partner our Department of Human Resource Management has been. They recently allowed us to present to 120 hiring managers and we will be a regular part of their monthly recruitment network action meetings. They've bought into our use of windmills training. They advertise it every month and we are co-sponsoring a job accommodation network training in October for them that they will heavily market to state hiring managers. So I think that's been really great. And then the other surprise, it turns out that our division of registered apprenticeship within the Department of Labor and Industry is moving to a new state agency. So we will see what that does. You know, you think things are pretty stable and static in certain ways, but they can change. That's been a surprise. But it's not a good or bad. It just, you know, might be a chance to actually work with more of our partners more directly.   Kate: And David, another surprise that we had was the use of data. We have been doing some trainings with the field and they you know, when you bring numbers involved, people get a little, oh, I don't know if I want to touch this, but what we found was the counselors, the evaluators, the placement, they enjoyed looking at this data. They ate it up. So the use of data as a tool to look at who we're serving, how are we serving them, has been an eye opener. At least it was a surprise for me. Now I'm a vocational evaluator, so I love data and I thought I was, you know, unique. But I'm not you know, everybody is, you know, surprisingly likes that data.   Carol: Yeah.. Well, and definitely how you present it to the field, you know, if you're just like blah, blah, blah, whatever, they really are interested because it's the culmination of their work, you know, so they see what's happening. It really helps to paint that picture and then they can react and respond and do things in a different way in response to that data. So I think that's smart that you guys are doing that. Now. I know you both had talked about shifting the conversation around employment and shifting that whole narrative on barriers to advancement and employment. Talk a little bit about that.   Kate: So one of the things that the counselors are really good at is, is when somebody comes in the door and they say, hey, you know, I need help finding work. But when we look at the definition of what we do, it's getting and but it's also keeping or advancing in your career. So what is that advancement look like? So if you have somebody coming in who I need a job right away, maybe this is where somebody is going to go for a stock clerk. But what about the idea of doing a quick training so that they can get a credential in the Certified logistics associate and then moving from there, maybe when they do that interview, now that they have that credential, maybe they can ask for a little bit of a raise. And what is the next step on that piece? So we've definitely looked at that. How do we make, as David said, the most of the career that you're looking at or the other areas that we've already talked about? Let's look at other areas.   David: One of the things that actually came from one of our offices that they wanted was we've heard more and more about attrition and attrition from application to plan, but also attrition from plan before employment or before successful closure. And we have created a group called Work Wise, which is designed for individuals who have just become employed to meet once a week in the evening, talk about their jobs, have an opportunity with a staff person to talk through issues, challenges. It's been really a powerful group, and I've been pleasantly surprised at how the individuals who choose to participate in a couple of cases did not want to stop going when their case was closed because of how valuable it was to in close to real time talk through things that were happening at work with someone with a VR counseling background. And that has been a really powerful group because it's also given folks to learn from each other and get to that stability and confidence to maybe also look for future opportunities. I know we're getting ready to also hold a salary negotiation training for folks. So again, let's help people think through and have those skills now that they may use now or they may use later when an opportunity to move up comes around. And similarly, we've started a group that we're calling money wise where we've partnered with a local credit union with that hope of how can we help make sure folks maximize their the benefits they choose to take advantage of from an employer. How do we help someone make sure that if there's a 401 match and it's X amount, that they do that much at the very least, Right. Those things that everyone is told, Well, if there's free money from an employer, you take it or if there's tuition assistance or some other thing, maybe there are things to plant some seeds. So someone would continue to move forward.   Carol: I can see how so much of this work that you are doing is so foundational and will be of benefit to, you know, your other colleagues across the country with the things you've uncovered and the things that you are working on, these different classes and groups and all of that. I'm sure other people are going, Gosh, I want to do that too. I think this will be amazing to help plant the seeds across the country. Now, David, I know you were concerned about implementing something that could withstand the test of time. And I know DIF grants are meant it's a demonstration grant. You're trying something out, but you want to also be able to carry forward these ideas into the future. So how are you guys structuring this to make that happen?   David: We really are thinking about sustainability and to Commissioner Hayfield's credit, that's been one of the things that she and Dale Batten have really stressed to us. It's great to do great work in a period of time, but how can we make sure that the things that have the potential to be value add or transformative continue and don't just end the day the funding stops? And we've really thought through many of the activities that we are creating, we are working on from at the beginning. What would this look like when there's no funding? How will we continue these? It's part of our partnership with Valray. We're working to get some of these pieces put into Canvas and set up through that learning management system. But within some of the positions, you know, one of our hopes is that the DHRM VR liaison could become its own full time non restricted position at the end. Similarly, we would hope that for the others, or at least those activities become a part of multiple staff strategically throughout the state. And that's one way we're looking at it.   Kate: And yeah, we're looking at the train, the trainers, also the tools that we're using. One of the pieces for vocational evaluators would be English language acquisition and knowledge. So there are assessments that are out there that can test somebody's English language, which is important for us to know if we're working with individuals and we're trying to place them on the job. So how do we get the tools necessary into the hands of the individuals and trained up for that so that that can be moving forward? So we're being proactive for these individuals that we hope to come into our doors a little bit more often.   Carol: That's excellent. So what do you guys see as your next steps? Where are you going from here? The point you're at right now, what are the next steps?   Kate: So a lot of our programming that we're doing right now is in partnership with adult ed. We see a great marriage between DARS and Adult Ed because Adult Ed works with a lot of individuals with disabilities already. They're adult educators. They can provide a little bit more support for our learners for credential training. They've got different things that are across the state. I'm working with our rehab center, Wilson Workforce and Rehabilitation to really figure out how can we marry these? Right now I'm coordinating all these trainings. Is there a way that the center can provide this? And this gives the center an opportunity to look at a virtual environment? What does this look like? We're not sure what it looks like, but we're giving a try to see for that next piece so that max potential with the employer, can that be run through Wilson so that it is open and able to run after the grant is over.   Carol: So for our listeners that would want to apply for a grant, but they've been afraid to do so. What advice would you give to other people?   David: Don't be afraid to apply for a grant. It is an amazing opportunity to infuse energy and enthusiasm into your workforce. It is a chance to stretch, learn new skills, try new programs and get some great outcomes. If there are things you've wanted to try and you don't necessarily have the budget to do or don't seem to fit a demonstration grant is a phenomenal opportunity, and when I came into this agency under grants and special programs, usually we had to worry about things like a match component. And if you have the chance to apply for a grant where there isn't a match and you are willing to be patient with that work, you can accomplish some great things. You get to know your partners better. You get to see staff flourish and stretch and more importantly, get some really cool outcomes for the clients we serve.   Carol: Love that infuse that energy and enthusiasm. I wrote that down. That was a great. You're like giving a commercial for the RSA DIF Grants, that's awesome.   Kate: One thing I would add on this too is when I first came in eight years ago on the other grant, I was pretty much kind of a newbie in the grant world, and I was a little intimidated with the idea of RSA. But what I have found is, is RSA is there to help us. They want us to succeed. And if you have a solid grant application and know what you want to do, they will help you give you some ideas. They invited other states to meet with you to kind of talk about different things. So they have been very good about sharing knowledge and they want to see us succeed.   Carol: That sounds so great. Well, I am going to definitely tell our listeners like they should reach out to you too, if they've got some questions to reach out to David and Kate, because you all have a lot of very cool stuff cooking, and I'm sure you're willing to talk to others about what you've been doing as they're thinking about maybe applying some of this, even though they may not have a DIF grant, but applying some of the things that you're learning into their own work in their states?   Kate: Absolutely. We're here.   Carol: Excellent. Well, I appreciate you both. Thanks for spending time with us. And I look forward to circling back with you a little bit in a couple more years as time flies on this grant and see where you're coming in at and those good results. So have a great day.   David: Thank you very much.   Kate: Thank you.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!  

David Colebatch, CEO of Tidal, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss Tidal's recent shift to a product-led approach and why empathizing with customers is always their most important job. David describes what it was like to grow the company from scratch on a boot-strapped basis, and how customer feedback and challenges inform the company strategy. Corey and David discuss the cost-savings measures cloud customers are now embarking on, and David discusses how constant migrations are the new normal. Corey and David also discuss the impact that generative AI is having not just on tech, but also on creative content and interactions in our everyday lives. About David David is the CEO & Founder of Tidal.  Tidal is empowering businesses to transform from traditional on-premises IT-run organizations to lean-agile-cloud powered machines.Links Referenced: Company website: https://tidal.cloud LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-colebatch/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Returning guest today, David Colebatch is still the CEO at Tidal. David, how have you been? It's been a hot second.David: Thanks, Corey. Yeah, it's been a fantastic summer for me up here in Toronto.Corey: Yeah, last time I saw you, was it New York or was it DC? They all start to run together to me.David: I think it was DC. Yeah.Corey: That's right. Public Sector Summit where everything was just a little bit stranger than most of my conversations. It's, “Wait, you're telling me there's a whole bunch of people who use the cloud but don't really care about money? What—how does that work?” And I say that not from the position of harsh capitalism, but from the position of we're a government; saving costs is nowhere in our mandate. Or it is, but it's way above my pay grade and I run the cloud and call it good. It seems like that attitude is evolving, but slowly, which is kind of what you want to see. Titanic shifts in governing are usually not something you want to see done on a whim, overnight.David: No, absolutely. A lot of the excitement at the DC summit was around new capabilities. And I was actually really intrigued. It was my first time in the DC summit, and it was packed, from the very early stages of the morning, great attendance throughout the day. And I was just really impressed by some of the new capabilities that customers are leveraging now and the new use cases that they're bringing to market. So, that was a good time for me.Corey: Yeah. So originally, you folks were focused primarily on migrations and it seems like that's evolving a little bit. You have a product now for starters, and the company's name is simply Tidal, without a second word. So, brevity is very much the soul of wit, it would seem. What are you doing these days?David: Absolutely. Yeah, you can find us at tidal.cloud. Yeah, we're focused on migrations as a primary means to help a customer achieve new capabilities. We're about accelerating their journey to cloud and optimizing once they're in cloud as well. Yeah, we're focused on identifying the different personas in an enterprise that are trying to take that cloud journey on with people like project, program managers, developers, as well as network people, now.Corey: It seems, on some level, like you are falling victim to the classic trap that basically all of us do, where you have a services company—which is how I thought of you folks originally—now, on some level, trying to become a product or a platform company. And then you have on the other side of it—places that we're—“Oh, we're a SaaS company. This is hard. We're going to do services instead.” And it seems like no one's happy. We're all cats, perpetually on the wrong side of a given door. Is that an accurate assessment for where you are? Or am I misreading the tea leaves on this one?David: A little misread, but close—Corey: Excellent.David: You're right. We bootstrapped our product company with services. And from day one, we supported our customers, as well as channel partners, many of the [larger size 00:03:20] that you know, we supported them in helping their customers be successful. And that was necessary for us as we bootstrapped the company from zero. But lately, and certainly in the last 12 months, it's very much a product-led company. So, leading with what customers are using our software for first, and then supporting that with our customer success team.Corey: So, it's been an interesting year. We've seen simultaneously a market correction, which I think has been sorely needed for a while, but that's almost been overshadowed in a lot of conversations I've had by the meteoric rise and hype around generative AI. Have you folks started rebranding everything with a fresh coat of paint labeled generative AI yet as it seems like so many folks have? What's your take on it?David: We haven't. You won't see a tidal.ai from us. Look, our thoughts are leveraging the technology as we always had to provide better recommendations and suggestions to our users, so we'll continue to embrace generative AI as it applies to specific use cases within our product. We're not going to launch a brand new product just around the AI theme.Corey: Yeah, but even that seems preferable to what a lot of folks are doing, which is suddenly pivoting their entire market positioning and then act, “Oh, we've been working in generative AI for 5, 10, 15 years,” in some cases. Google and Amazon most notably have talked about how they've been doing this for decades. It's, “Cool. Then why did OpenAI beat you all to the punch on this?” And in many cases, also, “You've been working on this for decades? Huh. Then why is Alexa so terrible?” And they don't really have a good talking point for that yet, but it's the truth.David: Absolutely. Yeah. I will say that the world changed with the OpenAI launch, of course, and we had a new way to interact with this technology now that just sparked so much interest from everyday people, not just developers. And so, that got our juices flowing and creativity mode as well. And so, we started thinking about, well, how can we recommend more to other users of our system as opposed to just cloud architects?You know, how can we support project managers that are, you know, trying to summarize where they're at, by leveraging some of this technology? And I'm not going to say we have all the answers for this baked yet, but it's certainly very exciting to start thinking outside the box with a whole new bunch of capabilities that are available to us.Corey: I tried doing some architecture work with Chat-Gippity—yes, that is how I pronounce it—and it has led me down the primrose path a little bit because what it says is often right. Mostly. But there are some edge-case exceptions of, “Ohh, it doesn't quite work that way.” It reminds me at some level of a junior engineer who doesn't know the answer, so they bluff. And that's great, but it's also a disaster.Because if I can't trust the things you tell me and you to call it out when you aren't sure on something, then I've got to second guess everything you tell me. And it feels like when it comes to architecture and migrations in particular, the devil really is in the details. It doesn't take much to design a greenfield architecture on a whiteboard, whereas being able to migrate something from one place to another and not have to go down in the process? That's a lot of work.David: Absolutely. I have used AI successfully to do a lot of research very quickly across broad market terms and things like that, but I do also agree with you that we have to be careful using it as the carte blanche force multiplier for teams, especially in migration scenarios. Like, if you were to throw Chat-Gippity—as you say—a bunch of COBOL code and say, “Hey, translate this,” it can do a pretty good job, but the devil is in that detail and you need to have an experienced person actually vet that code to make sure it's suitable. Otherwise, you'll find yourself creating buggy things downstream. I've run into this myself, you know, “Produce some Terraform for me.” And when I generated some Terraform for an architecture I was working on, I thought, “This is pretty good.” But then I realized, it's actually two years old and that's about how old my skills were as well. So, I needed to engage someone else on my team to help me get that job done.Corey: So, migrations have been one of those things that people have been talking about for well, as long as we've had more than one data center on the planet. “How do we get our stuff from over here to over there?” And so, on and so forth. But the context and tenor of those conversations has changed dramatically. What have you seen this past year or so as far as emerging trends? What is the industry doing that might not be obvious from the outside?David: Well, cost optimization has been number one on people's minds, and migrating with financial responsibility in mind has been refreshing. So, working backwards from what their customer outcomes are is still number one in our book, and when we see increasingly customers say, “Hey, I want to migrate to cloud to close a data center or avoid some capital outlay,” that's the first thing we hear, but then we work backwards from what was their three-year plan. And then what we've seen so far is that customers have changed from a very IT-centric view of cloud and what they're trying to deliver to much more business-centric. Now, they'll say things like, “I want to be able to bring new capabilities to market more quickly. I want to be able to operate and leverage some of these new generative AI technologies.” So, they actually have that as a driving force for migrations, as opposed to an afterthought.Corey: What I have found is that, for whatever reason, not giving a shit about the AWS bill in my business was a zero-interest-rate phenomenon. Suddenly people care an awful lot. But they're caring is bounded. If there's a bunch of easy stuff to do that saves a giant pile of money, great, yeah, most folks are going to do that. But then it gets into the idea of opportunity cost and trade-offs. And there's been a shift there that I've seen where people are willing to invest more in that cost-cutting work than they were in previous years.It makes sense, but it's also nice to finally have a moment to validate what I've assumed for seven years now that, yeah, in a recession or a retraction of the broader industry, suddenly, this is going to be top-of-mind for a lot of folks. And it's nice to see that that approach was vindicated because the earlier approach that I saw when we saw something like this was at the start of Covid. And at that point, no one knew what was happening week-to-week and consulting leads basically stopped for six months. And that was oh, maybe we don't have a counter-cyclical business. But no, it turns out that when money means something again as interest rates rise, people care about it more.David: Yeah. It is nice to see that. And people are trying to do more with less and become more efficient in an advanced pace these days. I don't know about you, but I've seen the trends towards the low-hanging fruit being done at this point so people have already started using savings plans and capabilities like that, and now they're embarking in more re-architecture of applications. But I think one stumbling block that we've noticed is that customers are still struggling to know where to apply those transformations across their portfolio. They'll have one or two target apps that everybody knows because they're the big ones on the bill, but beneath that, the other 900 applications in their portfolio, which ones do I do next? And that's still a question that we're seeing come up, time and again.Corey: One thing that I'm starting to see people talking about from my perspective, has been suddenly they really care about networking in a way that they did not previously. And I mean, this in the TCP/IP sense, not the talking to interesting people and doing interesting things. That's been basically steady-state for a while. But from my perspective, the conversations I'm having are being driven by, “Wait a minute. AWS is going to start charging $3.50 a month per assigned IPV4 address. Oh, dear. We have been careless in our approach to this.” Is that something that you're seeing shaping the conversations you're having with folks?David: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean right off the bat, our team went through very quickly and inventoried our IPV4, and certainly, customers are doing that as well. I found that, you know, in the last seven years, the migration conversations were having become broader across an enterprise customer. So, we've mapped out different personas now, and the networking teams playing a bigger role for migrations, but also optimizations in the cloud. And I'll give you an example.So, one large enterprise, their networking team approached us at the same time as their cloud architects who were trying to work on a migration approached us. And the networking team had a different use case. They wanted to inventory all the IP addresses on-premises, and some that they already had in the cloud. So, they actually leveraged—shameless plug here—but they leveraged out a LightMesh IPAM solution to do that. And what that brought to light for us was that the integration of these different teams working together now, as opposed to working around each other. And I do think that's a bit of a trend change for us.Corey: IPAM has always been one of those interesting things to me because originally, the gold standard in this space was—let's not kid ourselves—a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet. And then there are a bunch of other offerings that entered into the space. And for a while I thought most of these were ridiculous because the upgrade was, you know, Google Sheets so you can collaborate. But having this done in a way with particular permissions and mapping in a way that's intuitive and doesn't require everyone to not mess up when they're looking at it, especially as you get into areas of shared responsibility between different divisions or different team members who are in different time zones and whatnot, this becomes a more and more intractable problem. It's one of those areas where small, scrappy startups don't understand what the fuss is about, and big enterprises absolutely despair of finding something that works for them.AWS launched their VPC IPAM offering a while back and if you look at it from the perspective of competing with Google Sheets, its pricing is Looney Tunes. But I've met an awful lot of people who have sworn by it in the process, as they look at these things. Now, of course, the caveat is that like most AWS offerings, it's great in a pure AWS native environment, but as soon as you start getting into other providers and whatnot, it gets very tricky very quickly.David: No, absolutely. And usability of an IP address management solution is something to consider. So, you know, if you're trying to get on board with IPAM, do you want to do three easy steps or do you want to follow 150? And I think that's a really big barrier to entry for a lot of networking teams, especially those that are not too familiar with cloud already. But yeah, where we've seen the networking folks get more involved is around, like, identifying endpoints and devices that must be migrated to cloud, but also managing those subnets and planning their VPC designs upfront.You've probably seen this before yourself where customers have allocated a whole bunch of address space over time—an overlapping address space, I should say—only to then later want to [peer 00:13:47] those networks. And that's something that if you think you're going to be doing downstream, you should really plan for that ahead of time and make sure your address space is allocated correctly. Problems vary. Like, everyone's architecture is different, of course, but we've certainly noticed that being one of the top-button items. And then that leads into a migration itself. You're not migrating to cloud now; you're migrating within the cloud and trying to reorganize address spaces, which is a whole other planning activity to consider.Corey: When you take a look at, I guess the next step in these things, what's coming next in the world of migrations? I recently got to talk to someone who was helping their state migrate from, effectively, mainframes in many cases into a cloud environment. And it seems, on some level, like everyone on a mainframe, one, is very dependent on that workload; those things are important, so that's why they're worth the extortionate piles of money, but it also feels like they've been trying to leave the mainframe for decades in many cases. Now, there's a sense that for a lot of these folks, the end is nigh for their mainframe's lifespan, so they're definitely finally taking the steps to migrate. What's the next big frontier once the, I guess, either the last holdouts from that side of the world wind up getting into a cloud or decide they never will? It always felt to me like migrations are one of those things that's going to taper off and it's not going to be something that is going to be a growth industry because the number of legacy workloads is, at least theoretically, declining. Not so sure that's accurate, though.David: I don't think it is either. If we look back at past migrations, you know, 90, 95% of them are often lift-and-shift to EC2 or x86 on VMware in the cloud. And a lot of the work that we're seeing now is being described as optimization. Like, “Look at my EC2 workloads and come up with cloud-native or transformative processes for me.” But those are migrations as well because we run the same set of software, the same processes over those workloads to determine how we can re-platform and refactor them into more native services.So, I think, you know, the big shift for us is just recognizing that the term ‘migrations' needs to be well-defined and communicated with folks. Migrations are actually constant now and I would argue we're doing more migrations within customers now than we have in the past because the rate of change is just so much faster. And I should add, on the topic of mainframe and legacy systems, we have seen this pivot away from teams looking for emulation layers for those technologies, you know, where they want to forklift the functionality, but they don't want to really roll up their sleeves and do any coding work. So, they're previously looking to automatically translate code or emulate that compute layer in the cloud, and the big pivot we've seen in the last 12 months, I'd say, is that customers are more willing to actually understand how to rebuild their applications in the cloud. And that's a fantastic story because it means they're not kicking that technology debt can down the road any further. They're really trying to embrace cloud and leverage some of these new capabilities that have come to market.Corey: What do you see as, I guess, the reason that a number of holdouts have not yet done a migration? Like, historically, I've seen some that are pretty obvious: the technology wasn't there. Well, cloud has gotten to a point now where it is hard to identify a capability that isn't there in some form. And there's always been the sunk cost fallacy where, “Well, we've already bought all this stuff, and it's running here, so if we're not replacing it anytime soon, there's no cost benefit for us to replace it.” And that's actually correct. That's not a fallacy there. But there's also the, “Well, it would be too much work to move.” Sometimes true, sometimes not. Are you seeing a shift in the reasons that people are giving to not migrate?David: No, I haven't. It's been those points mostly. And I'd say one of the biggest inhibitors to people actually getting it done is this misconception that it costs a lot of money to transform and to adopt cloud tools. You've seen this through the technology keeps getting easier and easier to adopt and cheaper to use. When you can provision services for $0 a month and then scale with usage patterns, there's really no reason not to try today because the opportunity cost is so low.So, I think that one of the big inhibitors that comes up, though, is this cultural barrier within organizations where teams haven't been empowered to try new things. And that's the one thing that I think is improving nowadays, as more of this how-to-build-in-the-cloud capability becomes permeated throughout the organization. People are saying, “Well, why can't we do that?” As opposed to, “We can't do that.” You know what I mean? It's a subtle difference, but once leadership starts to say, “Why can't we do this modern thing in the cloud? Why can't we leverage AI?” Teams are given more rope to try and experiment, and fail, of course. And I think ultimately, that culture shift is starting to take root across enterprise and across public sector as well.Corey: One of the things that I find surprising is the enthusiasm with which different market segments jump onto different aspects of cloud. Lambda is a classic example, in that it might be one of the services that is more quickly adopted by enterprises than by startups and a lot of cases. But there's also the idea of, “Oh, we built this thing last night, and it's awesome.” And enterprises, like you know, including banks and insurance companies don't want to play those games, for obvious reasons.Generative AI seems to be a mixed bag around a lot of these things. Have you had conversations with a number of your clients around the generative AI stuff? Because I've seen Amazon, for example, talking about it, “Oh, all our customers are asking us about it.” And, mmm, I don't know. Because I definitely have questions about and I'm exploring it, but I don't know that I'm turning to Amazon, of all companies, to answer those questions, either.David: Yeah. We've certainly had customer conversations about it. And it depends, again, on those personas. On the IT side, the conversations are mostly around how can they do their jobs better. They're not thinking forwards about the business capabilities. So, IT comes to us and they want to know how can we use generative AI to create Lambda functions and create stateless applications more quickly as a part of a migration effort. And that's great. That's a really cool use case. We've used that generative AI approach to create code ourselves.But on the business side, they're looking forwards, they want to use generative AI in the, again, the sample size of my customer conversations, but they see that the barrier to entry is getting their data in a place that they can leverage it. And to them, to the business, that's what's driving the migration conversations they're having with us, is, “How do I exfil my data and get it into the cloud where I can start to leverage these great AI tools?”Corey: Yeah, I'm still looking at use cases that I think are a little less terrifying. Like, I want to wind up working on a story or something. Or I'll use it to write blog posts; I have a great approach. It's, “Write a blog post about this topic and here are some salient points and do it in the style of Corey Quinn.” I'll ask Chat-Gippity to do that and it spits out something that is, frankly, garbage.And I get angry at it and I basically copy it into a text editor and spent 20 minutes mansplain-correcting the robot. And by the time it's done, I have, like, a structure of an article that talks about the things I want to talk about correctly. And there may be three words in a sequence that were originally there. And frankly, I'm okay with plagiarizing from the thing that is plagiarizing from me. It's a beautiful circle of ripping things off that that's glorious for me.But that's also not something that I could see being useful at any kind of scale, where I see companies getting excited about a lot of this stuff, it all seems to be a thin veneer over, “And then we can fire our customer service people,” which from a labor perspective is not great, but ignoring that entirely, as a customer, I don't want that. Because by the time I have to reach out to a company's customer service apparatus, something has gone wrong and it isn't going to be solved by the standard list of frequently asked questions that I clicked on. It's something that is off the beaten path and anomalous and requires human judgment. Making it harder for me to get to people who can fix those things does not thrill and delight me.David: I agree. I'm with you there. Where I get excited about it, though, is how much of a force multiplier it can be on that human interaction. So, for example, in that customer's service case you mentioned, you know, if that customer service rep is empowered by an AI dashboard that's listening to my conversation and taking notes and automatically looking up in my knowledge base how to support that customer, then that customer success person can be more successful more quickly, I think they can be more responsive to customer needs and maybe improve the quality, not just the volume of work they do but improve the quality, too.Corey: That's part of the challenge, too. There have been a number of companies that have gotten basically rapped across the snout for just putting out articles as content, written by AI without any human oversight. And these don't just include, you know, small, scrappy content mills; they include Microsoft, and I believe CNN, if I'm not mistaken, had something similar with that going on. I'm not certain on that last one. I don't want to defame them, but I know for a fact Microsoft did.David: Yeah, and I think some of the email generators are plugging into AI now, too, because my spam count has gone through the roof lately.Corey: Oh, my God. I got one recently saying, “Hey, I noticed at The Duckbill Group that you fix AWS bills. Great. That's awesome and super valuable for your clients.” And then try to sell me bill optimization and process improvement stuff. And it was signed by the CEO of the company that was reaching out.And then there was like—I expand the signature view, and it's all just very light gray text make it harder to read, saying, “This is AI generated, yadda, yadda, yadda.” Called the company out on Twitter, and they're like, “Oh, we only have a 0.15% error rate.” That sounds suspiciously close to email marketing response rates. “Welp, that means 99% of it was perfect.” No, it means that you didn't get in front of most of those people. They just ignored it without reading it the way we do most email outreach. So, that bugs me a fair bit. Because my perspective on it is if you don't care enough to actually craft a message to send me, why should I care enough to read it?David: Completely agree. I think a lot of people are out there looking for that asymmetric, you know, leverage that you can get over the market, and generating content, to them, has been a blocker for so long and now they're just opening up the fire hose and drowning us all with it. So I'm, like, with you. I think that I personally don't expect to get value back from someone unless I put value into that relationship. That's my starting point coming into it, so I would maybe use AI to help assist forming a message to someone, but I'm not going to blast the internet with content. I just think that's a cheeky low-value way to go about it.Corey: I don't track the numbers anymore, but I know that at this point, through the size of my audience and the content that I put out, I have taken, collectively, millennia of human time focusing on—that has been spent consuming the content that I put out. And as a result of that, I have a guiding principle here, which is first and foremost, you've got to respect your audience. And I'm just going to have a robot phone it in is not respecting your audience. I have no problem with AI assistants, but it requires human oversight before it goes out. I would never in a million years send anything out to the audience that I hadn't at least read or validated first.But yeah, some of the signups that go out, the automatic things that you click a button and sign up for my newsletter at lastweekinaws.com, you get an auto message that comes out. Yeah, it comes out under my name and I either wrote it or reviewed it, depending on what generation of system we're on these days, because it has my name attached to it. That's the way that this works. Your credibility is important and having a robot spout off complete nonsense and you get the credit or blame for it? No thanks. I want to be doomed from my own sins, not the ones that a computer makes on my behalf.David: [laugh]. Yeah, I'm with you. It's unfortunate that so many people expect the emails from you are generated now. We have the same thing when people sign up for Tidal Accelerator or Tidal LightMesh, they get a personal email from me. They'll get the automated one as well, but I generally get in there through our CRM, and I send them a message, too. And sometimes they'll respond and say, “This isn't really David, is it?” No, no, it's me. You don't have to respond. I wanted to let you know that I'm thankful for you trialing our software.Corey: Oh, yeah. You can hit reply to any email I send out. It comes from corey@lastweekinaws.com and it goes to my inbox. The reason that works, frankly, at this scale is because no one does it. People don't believe that that'll actually work. So, on a busy week, I'll get maybe a dozen email replies to it or one or two misconfigured bounces from systems that aren't set up properly to do those things. And I weed those out because they drive me nuts.But it's a yeah, the only emails that I get to that address, honestly, are the test copies of those messages that go out, too, because I'm on my own newsletter list. Who knew? I have two at the moment. I have—yes, I have two specific addresses on that, so I guess technically, I'm inflating the count of subscribers by two, if advertisers ask. But you know, at 32,000 and change, I will take the statistical fudging.David: Absolutely. We all expect that.Corey: No, the depressing part, when I think about that is, there's a number of readers I have on the list that I know for a fact that I've been acquainted with who have passed away. They're never going to unsubscribe from these things until the email starts bouncing at some and undefinable point in the future. But it's also—it feels morbid, but on some level, if I continue doing this for the rest of my life, I'm going to have a decent proportion of the subscriber base who's died. At least when people leave their jobs, like, their email address gets turned off, things start bouncing and cool that gets turned off automatically because even when people leave voluntarily, no one bothers to go through an unsubscribe from all this stuff. So, automated systems have to do it. That's great. I'm not saying computers shouldn't make life better. I am saying that they can't replace a fundamental aspect of human caring.David: So, Corey Quinn, who has influence over the living and the dead. It's impressive.Corey: Oh, absolutely. Honestly, if I were to talk to whoever came up with IBM's marketing strategy, I feel like I'd need to conduct a seance because they're probably 300 years old if they're still alive.David: [laugh]. Absolutely.Corey: No, I get passionate about this stuff because so much of a lot of the hype now has been shifting away from letting people expand their reach further and doing things in intentional ways and instead toward absolute garbage, such as, “Cool, we want to get a whole bunch of clicks so we can show ads to them, so we're going to just generate all bunch of crap to your content and throw it out there.” Everything I write, even stuff that admittedly, from time to time, is aimed for SEO purposes for specific things that we're doing, but that's always done from a perspective of okay, my primary SEO strategy is write compelling, original content and then people presumably link to it. And it works. It's about respecting the audience and so many things get that wrong.David: Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of scary now because I always thought that podcasts and video were the last refuge of authentic content. And now people are generating that as well. You know, you're watching a video and you realize hey, that voice sounds exactly consistent, you know, all the way through. And then it turns out, it's generated. And there's a YouTube channel I follow because I'm an avid sailor, called World On Water. And recently, I've noticed that voice changed, and I'm pretty sure they're using AI to generate it now.Corey: Here's a story I don't think you probably know about yourself. So, for those who are unaware, David, I hang out from time to time in various places. There's a international boundary between us, but occasionally one of us will broach it, and good for us. And we have social conversations where somehow one of us doesn't have a microphone in front of our face. Imagine that. I don't know what that's like most weeks.And like, at some level, the public face comes off and people start acting like human beings. And something I've always noticed about you, David, is that you don't commit the cardinal sin, for an awful lot of people I meet, which is displaying contempt for your customers. When I have found people who do that, I think less of them in almost every case and I lose so much interest in whatever it is that they're doing. If you don't like the problem space that you're in and don't have respect for the people paying you to make these problems go away, you shouldn't be doing it. Like, I'll laugh at silly AWS misconfigurations, but my customers are there because they have a problem and they're bringing me in to fix it. And would I be making fun of? “Ha ha ha, you didn't spend eight months of your life learning the ins and outs of how exactly reserved instances apply in this particular context? What a fool is you.” That's not how it ever works. I wish I could say it wasn't quite as rare as it is but I'm tired of talking to people who have just nothing but contempt for their market. Good work on that.David: Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, I had a penny-drop moment when I was doing a lot of consulting work as an independent contractor, working with different customers at different stages of their own journey and different levels of technology capabilities. You know, you work with management, with project people, with software engineers, and you start to realize everybody's coming from a different place. So, you have to empathize with where they're at.They're coming to you usually because you have a level of expertise, that you've got some specialization and they want to tap into that capability that you've created. And that's great. I love having people come to me and ask me questions. Sometimes they don't come to me nicely asking questions, they make some assumptions about me and might challenge me right off the bat, but you have to realize that that's just where they're coming from at that point in time. And once you connect with them, they'll open up a little bit more, too; they'll empathize with yourself. So yeah, I've always found that it's really important for myself personally, but also for our team to empathize with customers, meet them where they're at, understand that they're coming from a different level of experience, and then help them solve their problems. That's job number one.Corey: And I'm a firm believer that if you don't respect your customer's business, they shouldn't be your customer. It's happened remarkably few times in the however many years I've been doing this, but there have been a couple of folks that have reached out I always very politely decline to work with them when this happens. Because you don't want to make people feel obnoxious for reaching out and, like, “Can you help me with my problem?” “How dare you? Who do you think you are?”No, no, no, no, no, none of that. But if there's a value misalignment or I don't think that your product is going to benefit people who use it as directed, I will not let you sponsor what I do as an easy example. Because I can always find another sponsor and make more money, but once I start losing the audience's trust, I'll never get that back, and I know that. It's the entire reason I do things the way that I do them. And maybe, on some level, from purely capitalist perspective, I'm being an absolute fool, but you know, if you have to pick a way to fail and assume you're going to get it wrong, how do you want to be wrong? I'll take this way.David: Yeah, I agree. Keep your ethics high, keep your morals high, and the rest will fall into place.Corey: I love how we started having ethical and morality discussions that started as, “So, cloud migrations. How are they going for you?”David: Yeah [laugh]. Certainly wandered into some uncharted territories on that one.Corey: Exactly. We started off in one place; wound up someplace completely removed from anything we could have reasonably expected at the start. Why? Because this entire episode has been a beautiful metaphor for cloud migrations. I really want to thank you for taking the time to chat with me on this stuff. If people want to learn more, where should they go to find you?David: tidal.cloud or LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn these days.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to both of those in the show notes. Thank you so much for going down this path with me. I didn't expect it to lead where it did, but I'm glad we went there.David: Like the tides ebbing and flowing. I'll be back soon, Corey.Corey: [laugh]. I will take you up on that and hold you to it.David: [laugh]. Sounds great.Corey: David Colebatch, CEO at Tidal. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, upset comment that doesn't actually make cohesive sense because you outsourced it to a robot.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

In this episode, Dan connects with retired Navy officer, legendary communicator, speaker, leadership strategist, and coach David Albritton. The founder and CEO of Nineteen88 Strategies, David cut his PR and communications chops at the Pentagon and followed a career track that led to his role as Chief Communications Officer at Exelis. That would have been the career-high mark for most communicators, but not for David. From the pinnacle of the comms world, he made that rare, perhaps unique, jump to running an entire enterprise, ultimately becoming the President of General Motors Defense. Through it all, he saw the value of coaching and mentoring in his life and decided to dedicate his third - and current - career to helping others realize the same.  How did he (and how does he) do it? How do you make the journey from being the PR guy to running a multi-billion-dollar business? Maybe it's how he fostered a learning mindset. Perhaps it's how he recognized when it's important to embrace change. Or it could be that a "Learn-or-Die" mantra is a prerequisite for success. He and Dan explore these and many more lessons from David's career to find some answers.  Listen in and learn … Why communications professionals need to develop business acumen The dynamic nature of communications professionals' role and the significance of continuous learning and growth.  The value of mentorship from a personal and professional perspective. The difference between a small “m” mentor and a large “M” mentor. How the universe recognizes your mentoring efforts and will reward you accordingly. The role of your worst day and how it can be used to push you forward.  The importance of respecting the expertise of others.  The Hole in Your Swing Philosophy and why it's important to address it. Why leaders understand the value of surrounding themselves with smart people.  That sometimes people can see the leader in you before you can see the leader in yourself.  Coaching is a safe place and there is a difference between coaching and mentoring.  The game-changing aspects of coaching on a personal and corporate level.  Some of the amazing resources David used to fuel his growth including, “Business Acumen for Strategic Communicators” by Ron Culp and Matthew W. Ragas.  Notable Quotes: “There have been so many people who have mentored me and didn't even know it.” (4:56) – David “I'm truly one that believes you can get through this life journey alone.” – (5:43) – David “Believing in others and their ability to help you and your ability to help them is what makes us human.” – (7:30) “There's a whole lot of goodness in this country that we don't get to see through the media all the time.” (10:06) – David “What is the story of David Albritton?” – (12:55) – Dan “You can't be a good leader until you've learned how to be a good follower.” – (14:33) – David “A soldier is trained to carry a rifle to fight wars and all those types of things. They're not trained to move a family with a baby that needs diapers and blankets.” – (34:14) – David “I never believed that by myself I was smart enough to do anything.” – (39:48) – David “PR isn't an exact science.” – (40:23) – David “I realized that I couldn't just be a communications person. I had to become more of a business partner.” – (40:54) – David “Just because you have title does not mean you know.” – (44:24) – David “Communications gives us (communicators) license to try and learn everything.” (47:31) -Dan “Then I had a huge left hook thrown at me that knocked me on my butt.” – (56:00) – David “I realized that if I could become a coach and get paid to be a coach, I never have to retire.” – (1:00:22) – David “We all deal with change differently.” – (1:03:40) – David “The job of a coach is to look into your future.” – (1:08:22) – David “It's not so much about who you know but who knows you.” (1:13:07) – David “Go into every situation as prepared as you can be.” (1:14:22) – David “Ask smart questions to people when you don't know things.” – (1:18:32) – David “You have to be known because you are contributing.” – (1:20:27) – Dan “People will stay with you if they feel like they have the opportunity to grow.” – (1:26:39) -David About David J. Albritton, ACC David Albritton, Founder and CEO of Nineteen88 Strategies, is an accomplished ICF-certified executive coach and business leader with over 30 years of diverse leadership experience spanning corporate, nonprofit, and military sectors. From his unique transition as a Chief Communications Officer to a business division chief executive of a Fortune 25 company, to his current role on the board of NASDAQ-listed Embecta Corp., Albritton exemplifies career versatility. His extensive roles, including President at General Motors Defense and VP Communications roles at Amazon Web Services, Exelis, ITT Defense, and United Way of America, reflect his expertise. As a seasoned executive coach, Albritton employs a holistic and authentic coaching framework to empower high-performing executives. His passion lies in enhancing leadership presence, personal branding, and emotional intelligence among others. He is also a Service-Disabled Veteran with degrees from the U.S. Naval Academy, Naval Postgraduate School, and executive education from top universities including Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton. Nineteen88 Strategies David Albritton | Linkedin David Albritton - Instagram  David Albritton - Twitter Four Forces Executive Group Dan Nestle Links The Dan Nestle Show (libsyn.com) Daniel Nestle | LinkedIn The Dan Nestle Show | Facebook Dan Nestle on Twitter Timestamped Summary Introduction to today's guest. 0:00 David's introduction. 1:49 Putting positivity out into the universe. 6:22 How did you get to the mindset you have? 11:49 The mindset of a public relations professional. 17:57 Learning to be a media communicator. 25:09 Rising through the ranks of the military. 29:38 Dealing with the perceptions of the military. 37:22 The common theme of leaders who are not the smartest. 44:48 Becoming a CCO at Exelis. 48:52 The importance of having the right talent. 53:09 Understanding your why and your purpose. 57:40 Being directive as a mentor. 1:02:06 Coaching is about helping people. 1:07:04 The importance of being prepared for every meeting. 1:11:49 The crux of it all. 1:18:56 David's advice for leaders. 1:23:48 David's work with veterans and charitable orgs. 1:27:52 *Notes were created by humans, with some help from Capsho and Otter.ai. 

Welcome to the Selling From The Heart podcast with Darrell Amy and Larry Levine as they feature David Newman, Author of Do It! Selling. He talks about getting a 'selling from the heart' experience as a prospect and how these experiences should be something we should also take note of as sellers.David dives deep into why there's such a hesitation in the prospecting process and how Do It! Selling attempts to address that and improve performance overall. If you approach it with complete integrity, transparency, and maturity, you're set up for success. HIGHLIGHT QUOTESThey will buy if you are selling with complete alignment with who you are - David: "You can have the world's greatest tips, tactics, techniques, and if your come-from is not from the right place, you will never ever make a sale. On the other hand, you could be human, you could fumble, you could stutter, you could say the wrong thing at the wrong time, if your come from is 100% genuine, heart-centered, and real, doesn't matter what you say." Connect with David and get his book:LinkedIn | Website  Learn more about Darrell and Larry: Darrell | Larry | Website Got a video about how you sell from the heart? Share it by texting VIDEO to 21000.Click HERE to preorder your copy of the rerelease of the Selling from the Heart book. SUBSCRIBE to our YOUTUBE CHANNEL! Please visit WHYINSTITUTE.COMPlease go to WORKBETTERNOW.COMClick for your Daily Dose of InspirationCheck out the 2023 Authentic Selling ChallengeGet your Insiders Group FREE PASS here

Are you comfortable feeling your emotions? For many, our natural reaction to negative emotions is to push them away and avoid them, but in order to heal those emotions, we have to feel them. In this episode of From Survivor to Thriver, we sat down with David Szczecinski to talk about feeling our emotions to heal them, complex trauma, attachment styles, being in the present moment, vulnerability, and so much more.David Szczecinski informs listeners about the art and science of interpersonal dynamics, while offering useful insights into power and control. He helps to empower our inner world as we learn to navigate the terrain of personal and professional relationships. Having worked for 20 years as a trainer and clinician in both government and private practice, David has the skills to equip each person with more confidence in their relationship journey. He has seen thousands of people in their darkest hours while also having the privilege of walking alongside many people on their journey of empowerment, relationship development, self-awareness, communication, boundary setting, and, all the while, building their personal resilience. He is the Author of the Self-Awareness Method (SAM™) and ‘Safe/Unsafe: Understanding Modern Relationships - Field Guide'.  In today's episode we cover: Where power and control come fromThe ancestral experience we carry The types of resources we strive to gain for survivalThe difference between attention-seeking and connection-seekingThe truth about narcissism and complex trauma What it takes to feel safe The behaviors we use to protect our vulnerability How our attachments are createdHow anxiety is a threat responseAbsorbing yourself into the feeling of being present The importance of noticing your neutral state What confidence actually is How we can move forward from the trauma of the pastWe hope you enjoyed our conversation with David. If you want to learn more from him, make sure to visit his website and follow him on Facebook. Thanks again for tuning in. We are so grateful to each and every one of you. Please remember to leave a rating and review of our show. It helps us grow and reach those who need it. Also, make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode! Links: Visit David's websiteConnect with him on LinkedInFollow him on FacebookFollow us on FacebookFollow us on InstagramFollow us on TikTokGet in touch: amgits.reverse@gmail.com“Power and control is something that comes from within. It's not an external thing.” -David “You have to feel it to heal it.” -David “In the mental health world, it's often finding our power or taking it back. Not because  someone took it, but because we gave it away.” -Marc “We often forget that we are people. And we are living with something, but that something doesn't define who we are.” -Erik 

Secrets of Overcoming Romantic Rejection Part 1 of 2 In today's podcast we are proud to interview Dr. Kyle Jones from the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California. Kyle Jones, PhD is a clinical psychology postdoctoral fellow affiliated with Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California where he provides individual psychotherapy in a private practice. He co-leads a monthly consultation group with Maggie Holtam, PhD where therapists can get help with exposure methods for anxiety. He has recently become an Adjunct Professor of Psychology at Palo Alto University - teaching Clinical Interviewing in the clinical psychology PhD program. Kyle wrote: “Here are some questions from patients of mine for our podcast today - we don't have to go through all of these bust just some talking points!" We will publish part of the questions in today's podcast, and several more next week. There are even more questions, so let us know if you would want a Part 3 on this topic at some time in the future. Below you will find the list of questions with some responses by David and Rhonda BEFORE the podcast. To get the true scoop, listen to the podcast, as most of the comments below were simply ideas that popped into our heads prior to the podcast. Although we focus on romantic rejection in these two podcasts, the idea really pertain to rejection in all segments of our lives. 1. Why do you think it's so hard for us humans to handle rejection/why do you think we are so afraid of it? David THE LOVE ADDICTION SDB. LOOKING TO EXTERNAL SOURCES FOR FEELINGS OF SELF-WORTH AND HAPPINESS. THE CBA IS CRUCIAL, SINCE PEOPLE MAY NOT WANT TO STOP LINKING SELF WORTH WITH LOVE. Rhonda Plus, it hurts.  And our brain is wired to experience pain when rejected.  We are wired that way. Evolutionary psychologists believe it all started when we were hunter gatherers who lived in clans. Since we could not survive alone, being ostracized from our clan was basically a death sentence. As a result, we developed an early warning system to alert us when we were at risk of being rejected by our tribemates. People who experienced rejection as more painful were more likely to change their behavior, remain in the clan, and pass along their genes. Kyle Getting dumped sucks! We aren't really taught how to handle rejection very well in our culture. 2. Are we capable of overcoming the fear of rejection and how do we accomplish that?  David You can face your fear with REJECTION PRACTICE. The FIRST SECTION OF INTIMATE CONNECTIONS IS ON OVERCOMING THE FEAR OF BEING ALONE. Rhonda Is part of the fear of rejection also a fear of being alone?  You can use the “What If” technique to uncover more about those fears.  Then put the thoughts in a Daily Mood Log, and challenge them with a variety of techniques you can select for a Recovery Circle. You can also face your fears with Rejection Practice and/or Exposure. 3. When it comes to getting dumped do you guys believe there is a good way to approach it communicating wise? David YOU CAN USE FIVE SECRETS TO FIND OUT WHY THE OTHER PERSON IS REJECTING YOU. OR, PERHAPS BETTER, YOU CAN TURN THE TABLES ON THE REJECTOR, SINCE IT IS PART OF A CHASE GAME. Rhonda If you want to know more about why you were “dumped,” will you trust the other person to be honest with you?  Will you believe them when they respond?  You might want to do a Cost Benefit Analysis to decide whether or not you even want to ask them to explain why you were “dumped.” Kyle It depends on the situation. If you have gone through a divorce and have children, you may still need to talk with you ex-partner. Generally, I don't think it's a good idea to stay in touch and keep chatting with an ex who dumped you! 4. If we are caught off guard with the breakup and don't see it coming and all of a sudden one day our partner decides to end the relationship, how do we not let our emotions get the best of us in that moment in that very moment? David WHEN YOU SAY, “GET THE BEST OF US” IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE NOT ACCEPTING YOUR FEELINGS. IS IT OKAY TO FEEL FEELINGS? THIS QUESTION SOUNDS LIKE EMOTOPHOBIA. Rhonda It's perfectly reasonable to be sad, to cry, to be shocked and angry.  Why not have those feelings?  You also don't have to expect to respond with a “perfect 5-Secrets.”  Maybe you need to take a break from each other, breathe, walk, calm down, and then meet again to talk talk, if that is what you want to do. Kyle If you get blindsided by a breakup it can really be shocking and overwhelming. It's okay to feel how you feel in that moment I would think. 5. When it comes to recovery after being broken up with, how do you fight the urge to go back to your ex? David THIS URGE IS DUE TO THE BURNS RULE: WE ONLY WHAT WE CAN'T GET, AND NEVER WANT WHAT WE CAN GET. ALSO, CAN DO A CBA ON CHASING. Rhonda Also, look at the thoughts that are leading you to want to get back together.  What do they say about you that is awesome?  Then examine them for Cognitive Distortions, and talk back to them with Dbl Standard or Ext of Voices. Do a “Time Projection,” see yourself in 5 years, in 10 years, in 20 years.  Have a conversation with your future selves to talk about what you want, what kind of person you want to be with, how you want to be treated in the future. Practice “Distraction,” when you start thinking about your “ex” distract yourself by concentrating intensely on something else, music, work, friends, cooking, another hobby. Kyle Come back to reality and remember all the crummy ways an ex may have been treating you, instead of letting your mind ruminate on how great things were during the first few weeks of dating. Come up with all the good reasons to continue wishing/hoping you and your ex will get back together and talk back to those. My book, Intimate Connections, will help you with dating and rejection issues! Stay tuned for Part 2 next week.