Podcasts about 2bobs

Welcome to episode 138. If you're managing client relationships - or leading others who do - this episode is packed with practical advice. I'm joined by David C. Baker, widely regarded as "the expert's expert" in the marketing agency world. David has advised over 1,000 entrepreneurial experts through his consulting firm, Punctuation, which he founded back in 1994. He's the author of 7 books, including the influential "The Business of Expertise" and "Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors," and his latest book “Selling your professional services firm”. His insights have been featured in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal and numerous other publications. As the co-host of the popular "2Bobs" podcast, David regularly shares his expertise on agency management. With decades of experience working with marketing services firms, David brings unparalleled insights into the nuanced relationship between account management and project management - which makes him the perfect guest as we prepare for the third annual Account and Project Management event in Atlanta in September 2025. Here's just a handful of the things we covered: • Why growing the account is the primary role of an account manager - and why order-taking isn't enough (particularly now) • The healthy tension that needs to exist between AMs and PMs - and what happens when one person does both • Why strong account managers read the room - not just run the meeting • How to lead clients without being pushy - and why honesty is your best sales strategy • Practical tips for handovers, managing workload, and setting account managers up for success • And why account managers can - and should - lead the AI conversation within the agency David also shares thoughts on leadership, compensation, and the future of AM in an AI-driven world. If this conversation sparked ideas for how you can grow your client relationships, lead more confidently, and future-proof your role - then imagine what could happen if you gave yourself two days completely focused on it. Join us in Atlanta this 23rd and 24th of September for the AM/PM Conference - the only event created specifically for agency account and project managers. This isn't just another conference. It's where you'll: • Surround yourself with people who get it - fellow AMs and PMs facing the same pressures and expectations you are • Learn practical strategies to retain and grow client accounts, manage tricky situations, and improve delivery - without burning out • Discover exactly how other agencies are using AI to work smarter, automate the boring stuff, and deliver faster, better outcomes • Leave with fresh tools, frameworks, and real-world examples you can put into practice the very next day I'll be there, David C. Baker will be there, and we're also joined by Brett Harned - founder of the Digital PM Summit and author of Project Management for Humans. If you're serious about growing your career and elevating your role - this is where it happens. Visit https://www.punctuation.com for all the details and to grab your spot.

The 4 Steps to Selling Your Expertise as an ArchitectBlair Enns, founder of Win Without Pitching and author of The Four Conversations, joins the podcast to share a powerful framework for selling expertise as an architect. He explains how positioning yourself as a trusted advisor rather than just a service provider leads to stronger client relationships and better business outcomes.The conversation explores the four key stages of selling—probative, qualifying, value, and closing conversations—helping architects identify the right clients, set prices based on value rather than industry norms, and confidently say no to misaligned projects. Blair also discusses common sales pitfalls, how to recognize red flags in client relationships, and why shifting the focus from selling to advising creates more successful engagements.Whether you're struggling with pricing, client fit, or closing deals, this episode provides actionable insights to help you build a more profitable and sustainable architectural practice.This week at EntreArchitect Podcast, The 4 Steps to Selling Your Expertise as an Architect with Blair Enns.Learn more about Blair online at Win Without Pitching, check out his podcast 2Bobs, and connect with him on LinkedIn.Referenced in this EpisodeEA219: Pricing Creativity with Author Blair Enns [Podcast]The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise by Blair Enns [book]Please visit Our Platform SponsorsGo to https://betterhelp.com/architect for 10% off your first month of therapy with BetterHelp and get matched with a therapist who will listen and help. Thank you to our sponsor BetterHelp for supporting our community of small firm entrepreneur architects.ARCAT.com is much more than a product catalog, with CAD, BIM, and specifications created in collaboration with manufacturers. ARCAT.com also offers LEED data, continuing education resources, newsletters, and the Detailed podcast. Visit https://ARCAT.com to learn more.

Blair and David reminisce about their podcasting journey since Blair first pitched the 2Bobs idea to David back in 2016, sharing what they've learned along the way, and what they might like to try with the podcast in the future.

Thinking about hosting a live event, but not sure how to make it well-attended, profitable and worth your time? Renowned author, speaker and creative firm advisor David C. Baker lifts the curtain on his wildly successful MYOB conference and live events:The role of in-person live events in David's expertise business model (plus a peek at the numbers for his four revenue streams).How his pandemic pivot from in-person gatherings became a new lead generation source—and removed travel from his client engagements.Why his conferences and events include multiple opportunities for attendees to engage with each other; he shares a few ideas you can borrow.His philosophy on outside speakers: how he chooses, pays and manages them.The one thing you must do if you want to make sure your conference doesn't lose money.LINKSDavid C. Baker MYOB Conference | LinkedIn | TwitterRochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | InstagramBIODavid C. Baker is an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He has written 6 books, advised 1,000+ firms, and keynoted conferences in 30+ countries.His work has been discussed in the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Forbes, USA Today, BusinessWeek, CBS News, Newsweek, AdWeek, and Inc. Magazine. He lives in Nashville, TN.His two most recent books can be found here and here. His work has also been featured in the NY Times, where he was recently referred to as “the expert's expert”. He co-hosts the most listened to podcast in the creative services field (2Bobs).BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLERESOURCES FOR SOLOISTSJoin the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.TRANSCRIPT00:00 - 00:17David C. Baker: You know, here's the easiest way to lose money with an event. When I learned this, my whole world changed about events. Do not sign up for room blocks because you're having to guarantee them. And then you have this pressure to sell and then you cheapen your brand by starting to beg people to come to these things and so on.00:24 -...

Welcome to episode 106. If you'd like to know how one agency has been using AI since 2011 to predict the future for their clients, this chat will be interesting for you. It will also be insightful if you're curious how the agency works with their global CPG and FMCG brands. ‌Nik Pearmine, Chief Strategy Officer at Black Swan Data, and I cover a range of topics including: - his view on what it takes to be successful in account management - what he thinks is in store for the future - and whether we should be worried about AI replacing our jobs. You can get in contact with Nik via LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikolas-pearmine-138bb612/ If you're listening to this at the beginning of 2024 and are based in the US, I wanted to let you know I'll be running a value-packed seminar with David C Baker and Jack Skeels on 12th and 13th March in Atlanta. ‌The event is all about the account management and project management roles. I'll be talking about the essentials of account management, how to grow an account and how account managers work with project managers. ‌David is extremely well known in the agency industry as he's an agency advisor, the author of “The Business of Expertise” and “Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors” as well as co-hosting the 2Bobs podcast with Blair Enns. ‌You can find all the details and book your tickets at David's website: https://www.punctuation.com

David C. Baker is an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He has written five books, including his latest book titled, The Business of Expertise. Baker has advised over 900 firms, was the keynote speaker at conferences in 30 countries, and his work has been discussed in dozens of international publications. The New York Times referred to him as the “expert's expert”. He is also the co-host of the 2Bobs podcast.

Blair and Leah are concluding their brief summer hiatus, back in the studio this week, preparing to bring you a brand new interview in two weeks time.  Until then, Blair has shamelessly selected another episode of his other podcast, 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship, which he cohosts with David C. Baker. In this episode from 2021, David interviews Blair about his Amazon #1 best-selling book, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, ten years after its launch. Blair's Twitter Blair's Linkedin Win Without Pitching Leah's Linkedin  The ICA The ICA's Linkedin David C. Baker 2Bobs The Win Without Pitching Manifesto

"Building a solid cash cushion is super important to any successful business and to any marketing firm out there." - David C. BakerThe finer details of this episode:Different approaches to financial managementThe importance of financial planning and forecasting Building a solid cash cushion Episode resources:Summit Virtual CFO by Anders website – summitcpa.netEmail us with questions or if you'd like to be a guest on the show – vcpasuccessshow@anderscpa.comBusiness Insight for Expert Marketing Firms (davidcbaker.com)David C. Baker | LinkedIn

While Blair and Leah take a brief summer hiatus, we're delighted to bring you an episode of Blair's other podcast, 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship. In this episode, Blair and his co-host David C. Baker talk about Blair's Innoficiency Principle as it applies to running an agency.  Blair's Twitter Blair's Linkedin Win Without Pitching The ICA's Linkedin Leah's Linkedin  The ICA David C. Baker 2Bobs The Innoficiency Problem

Blair Enns is the Founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, a sales training and coaching organization for creative professionals. He has advised hundreds of design firms, advertising agencies, and other creative authorities on how to deprogram themselves from the standard approach to win new business.  Blair is the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. He is also the co-host of the 2Bobs podcast and 20% - The Marketing Procurement Podcast. In this episode of the Smart Business Revolution Podcast, John Corcoran interviews Blair Enns, the Founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, about his manifesto for helping companies pitch and win better business deals. They also discuss Blair's specialization principle, tips for having conversations about money, and the secret behind the success of Blair's 2Bobs podcast.

Behind his back, I call him a Peter Drucker. He's the co-host of one of my favorite podcasts, 2Bobs. He's also the author of six business books.His name is David C. Baker, and I could listen to him all day with his pearls of wisdom on accumulating and sharing expertise with others.David's newest book is Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors. You do not need to be a third-party business advisor to appreciate this conversation. The content of this book applies to anyone who is a knowledge worker.

This week, we used a puff of smoke to catch pricing magician Blair Enns performing his favourite trick; making RFPs disappear.   Founder of Win Without Pitching and Author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and Pricing Creativity, Blair is dead set on getting creative businesses to price their work properly, single-handedly saving those who sell ideas for a living from giving them away for nada.  We pulled a ton of topics out of a hat including his early years in account management and new business, pitching and RFPs, generalist vs specialist agencies, value-based pricing, why your agency should have a portfolio of pricing models, pricing creatively, how to raise your prices with current clients (and not p**s them off in the process), search consultants, hissing cockroaches and loads more.    ///// Follow Blair on Twitter and LinkedIn  Check out Blair's website  Get his books Pricing Creativity and The Win Without Pitching Manifesto Here's the 2Bobs podcast  And listen to Blair's new show 20% The Marketing Procurement Podcast  Strange Creatures: Pitches, Search Consultants, and Hissing Cockroaches by Blair Enns Consultative Selling: Beating The Odds by Tom Lewis  Thank you to everyone who has lent their ears and their brains for over 100 episodes of the Call To Action® podcast. It's a real privilege. Please do share and review the podcast to help more marketers feel better about marketing.     Timestamps (01:52) - Quick fire questions (03:58) - Account management as a gateway drug into ad land  (09:38) - Doing new business remotely in 2000 (13:45) - The real problem with pitching  (21:44) - Value based pricing  (24:22) - Does the blame lie with agencies or clients?  (27:11) - Why pricing is a prison cell in your own mind of your own making (31:53) - Pricing as a creative act  (37:25) - The importance of presenting more than one price (43:28) - Listener questions  (50:36) - 4 pertinent posers  Blair's book recommendations are:  $100M Offers by Alex Hormozi  The Boutique by Greg Alexander  The Business of Expertise by David C. Baker  /////

David C. Baker is an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He has written five books, including his latest book titled The Business of Expertise. Baker has advised over 900 firms, was the keynote speaker at conferences in 30 countries, and his work has been discussed in dozens of international publications. The New York Times referred to him as the “expert's expert”. He is also the co-host of the 2Bobs podcast.

Jeff talks about one of the podcasts he listens to, 2Bobs - with David C. Baker and Blair Enns, and how they simulcasted an episode on Clubhouse. The guys talked about this approach in episodes 29 and 34. Podville Media is getting ready to produce a Twitch for an unnamed client. A big move as this will gain in popularity, Charlie says. Jeff somehow makes it through an awkward ending to the show.

Ever wonder what makes someone a credible expert?    In this episode, David C. Baker—dubbed “The Expert’s Expert” by The NY Times—gives top entrepreneurial tips on repositioning your business to pinpoint and solve bottlenecks for your key target audience.   A renowned author and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide, David has now coached over 500 firms and written five books—including his latest bestseller, The Business of Expertise: How Entrepreneurial Experts Convert Insight to Impact + Wealth. A charismatic and much-loved speaker, David has given keynotes in over 30 countries and co-hosts 2Bobs—the most listened-to podcast in the creative service field.   In this episode we discuss:   The fear barrier faced by entrepreneurs and how to confidently overcome this hurdle The importance of defining your niche, both vertically and horizontally Mastering the art of saying “no” to create more business opportunities

I got to interview David C. Baker. David C. Baker is an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He has written 5 books, advised 900+ firms, and keynoted conferences in 30+ countries. His work has been discussed in the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Forbes, USA Today, BusinessWeek, and Inc. Magazine. His work has also been featured in the NY Times, where he was referred to as the expert’s expert. He co-hosts the most listened to podcast in the creative services field 2Bobs. We spoke about: 1:51 Growing up with a tribe of Mayan Indians in Guatemala with missionary parents. 4:01 Seeing things from a global perspective. 12:11 Making a difference for people. And much more. This episode is sponsored by Nova Zora Digital experts in digital marketing. *Disclaimer: The views and opinions on Roman Prokopchuk's Digital Savage Experience are those of the guest's alone as their own, and the host's alone as his own. Information provided by the guest is fact checked to the best of our abilities. By providing background information to the show, the guest acknowledges that it is as accurate as possible. The show does not endorse, promote, or is in association with the guest's business interests.*

Today’s guest is David C. Baker an advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide who has written five books including The Business of Expertise and is the co-host of the podcast 2Bobs. We start with David sharing the importance of positioning yourself as an expert in your field. We discuss having to say no and getting over the fear of lost opportunities. Then the conversation shifts to the practice of giving away your content and why you need to hold back on applied knowledge. Finally, we wrap up with tips on getting through rough times and coming out the other side without giving up the position you’ve built.   Three Key Takeaways: Why Thought Leaders need to narrow their focus to create a better position. How giving away your Thought Leadership can make closing a sale easier. Why you should never water down your focus as a Thought Leader even when times are rough.

David C Baker - The Business of Expertise, 2Bobs Podcast -  David C Baker author of The Business of Expertise: How Entrepreneurial Experts Convert Insight to Impact + Wealth David chats with Jon Leon Guerrero and Pete A Turner examining various elements of expertise. Things like "Vertical" (specific to a maker) vs "Horizontal" (more broadly applied expertise). He also discusses the benefits of establishing specific expertise...but also, quickly pivoting off of that brand when the market sends a signal.  David also has a fantastic podcast with his buddy Blair Enns called the "Two Bobs Podcast." You'll want to check it out! Haiku Googleized Knowledge We expect to find answers Do experts have more Similar episodes: Kriss Duggan https://youtu.be/1py32NMknX8 Jeremy McKane https://youtu.be/7XGJ5nKII4U Bing West https://youtu.be/O9TcDVcypsQ ​Join us in supporting Save the Brave as we battle PTSD. www.savethebrave.org​ Executive Producer/Host/Intro: Pete A. Turner https://youtu.be/mYoUxRJzXcA Producer: Damjan Gjorgjiev ​ ​​​ The Break It Down Show is your favorite best, new podcast, featuring 5 episodes a week with great interviews highlighting world-class guests from a wide array of topics. Get in contact with Pete at www.peteaturner.com www.breakitdownshow.com Interview, new podcast episode, experts, expertise.

David keeps encountering clients who don’t appreciate how their account people actually contribute to their overall business, and Blair totally identifies with the traits that David describes.   2Bobs episode 44: “The Best Ways to Disrespect Account People”   WHAT ACCOUNT PEOPLE DO, IN BROAD STROKES: Pull necessary data from the client, even when it’s tough to get their cooperation. Sell recommendations back to them that are in their best interest. Lead the client. (Interesting fact: “strategy” is latin for “general” in army who leads.) Protect margins. Grow the account. Send the client to hell...and help them enjoy the trip (e.g., change orders). Read social signals and intervene before catastrophe strikes. Manage an account review, disputes, mistakes, etc. Follow client contacts to their next job. Keep ear to the ground as agency innovates client offerings.   PERSONALITY: Goal is authority and prestige. Judges others by their ability to verbalize and be flexible. Overuses enthusiasm, selling ability, and optimism. Fears boxed in environment without room to grow.

Melissa Peoples is a productivity and organization expert who coaches and trains executive assistants. By building a framework of communication, organization, and automation, she helps executive teams become stunningly productive and effective. In this episode, we discuss creating productivity road maps, time boxing your calendar, and Outlook tools and techniques for finding your personal best practices.Find Gamestorming on Amazon. Listen to 2Bobs on your favorite podcasting app. Watch Melissa's timeboxing video on YouTube.Find Melissa at her website, LinkedIn, Twitter, and YouTube.Melissa's tour dates and locations can be found on her website. The EA Revolution Summit includes speakers Bryan Rose, Sheena Hubbard, La Donna Finnels-Neal, and of course Melissa Peoples.

In this episode yours truly discuss things they learned, things that changed and some other shenanigans. Enjoy!Also, check out our new intro!Here's the link to the 2Bobs podcast we were talking about. Highly recommend to listen to it!podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/2bobs-with-david-c-baker-and-blair-enns/id1219490591---Dignify is podcast presented to you by two very different but equally enthusiastic hosts - Maria, an industry insider, and Victoria, a narrator.Learn more on:Our website: dignify.xyzOur Instagram: instagram.com/dignify.podcastOur facebook: facebook.com/dignify.podcastThanks for your feedback!Cheers.

  Blair and David share what they have learned as they have recorded 2Bobs podcast episodes for almost 4 years - what has worked well, what has been challenging, and what they would recommend to those agency principals who might be considering their own podcast.   LINKS The Soul of Enterprise Episode 15: “The Best Learning Method Ever Devised: After Action Reviews” with Ron Baker and Ed Kless Build a Better Agency with Drew McClellan EconTalk with Russell Roberts Marcus dePaula, podcast producer and consultant   BLAIR'S PODCASTING SETUP Telefunken M82 dynamic XLR microphone Audient iD4 audio interface Rolls MS111 Mic Mute Senal SMH-1000 Professional Field and Studio Monitor Headphones Apple QuickTime Player app for AIFF audio recording using the Maximum quality setting Skype for the conversation (audio only)   DAVID'S PODCASTING SETUP Sennheiser HMDC 27 Professional Broadcast Headset with custom extension cable (so David can roam as he records) Audient iD4 audio interface Rolls MS111 Mic Mute Rogue Amoeba Audio Hijack for WAV audio recording of both David's mic and the Skype call (as a backup) Skype for the conversation (audio only)   MARCUS' EQUIPMENT RECOMMENDATIONS MARCUS' REMOTE RECORDING INSTRUCTIONS USING CLEANFEED.NET

#44 Monthly recurring revenue is all the rage these days. But what most freelancers and agencies don’t realize is that it can cause problems. David C. Baker of the 2Bobs podcast joins me to talk about 9 ways recurring revenue actually hurts your business.

This week I am excited to bring you my first podcast interview with guest Blair Enns, Founder, of Win Without Pitching and author of Pricing Creativity: A Guide To Profit Beyond The Billable Hour. If Blair’s name sounds familiar to you, it may be because I’ve talked about him in some of my past episodes. I'm just so honored that he was able to be my first guest because he is an inspiration to me and the work I do. In fact, his book, Pricing Creativity, was the inspiration for the name of this podcast! In addition to being an author and entrepreneur, Blair co-hosts the podcast 2Bobs, Conversations On The Art of Creative Entrepreneurship, with David C. Baker. He also lectures throughout the world on how creative professionals can win more business at higher prices and lower cost of sale. Sound familiar? In this episode, Blair and I discuss value-based pricing, including the purpose and benefit of using this pricing strategy. Plus, we talk about some ways to implement value-based pricing in your business. In this episode, you’ll hear: How and why Blair decided to scale his business and his strategy behind the pricing of his products and services His endeavor into learning about value-based pricing and applying the methods he learned to his own business and clientele Blair describes the three main pricing options What value-based pricing is and how to implement it in your business The purpose of value-based pricing The importance of being client-centric and not focused on your solutions. Connect with Blair: Win Without Pitching - Blair Enns Pricing Creativity: A Guide To Profit Beyond The Billable Hour The Win Without Pitching Manifesto 2Bobs Podcast With David C Baker and Blair Enns 2-Day Win Without Pitching Workshop April 15th-16th, Chicago, IL LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/win-without-pitching/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/winwithoutpitching/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/winwithoutpitching/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/blairenns   Connect with Paul: The Business of Consulting Workshop - Sacramento The Product Pricing Roadmap Web: www.paulklein.net LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulkleintv/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/paulkleintv Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/paulkleinTV/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/PaulKleinTV YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoQRkgXR4ClPAub12lXgPwg

What’s In This Episode: Brad's taking a page from Blair Enns of the 2Bobs podcast this week and asking, "What if you couldn't sell or retire?" They also talk to Scott Smith about the joys of being a lawyer and vulnerability. "If the whole idea of being vulnerable is so that you can get to the next level, in fact, what you're doing is using people." - Brad Scott Royal Smith is a lawyer who works with investors to help them get their time back and enjoy their lives. His business is growing faster than he can keep up though. This leads to a conversation about authenticity, vulnerability, and risk. "Some businesses can't be rearranged that quickly." - Jill Retirement's not an attractive option for Brad. Jill has already found a way to do what she loves with The Founding Momsand she hopes to continue doing it for a long time. If you could never stop doing what you're currently doing, would you change anything? Jill would want to speed things in her business up so that she would only be doing things she wants to be doing. Brad has the ambition to make a dent in the universe. And he makes better progress when he's not rushing and when he takes time for yourself. What makes something like this sustainable? What if you couldn't sell or retire your business?

David gets into Blair's head to get his 10 basic negotiating tips that he has worked with clients on over the years.   LINKS “10 Negotiating Tips” (with 5 bonus tips) “Selling in One Lesson,” 2Bobs episode 49 Buying Less for Less: How to avoid the Marketing Procurement dilemma, by Gerry Preece Negotiating with Backbone: Eight Sales Strategies to Defend Your Price and Value, by Reed K. Holden   TRANSCRIPT DAVID C. BAKER: Blair, today we are going to talk about 10 really interesting ways you can get your spouse to go ... Wait, I haven't, quit laughing. I haven't - BLAIR ENNS: I'm out. DAVID: How to get your spouse to go to the place for dinner that you want to go to. BLAIR: Okay. DAVID: How's that? BLAIR: Sure. What kind of trouble could we possibly get into? DAVID: Yeah, that would be a really stupid pod ... No. What we're talking about are some negotiating tips that you've thought about over many years. You've polled, you've tested, you've researched. You've worked with clients on. You've consolidated them into this one place. We may get to some bonus tips. I don't know if we'll have the time, but we definitely want to talk about the 10 basic tips around negotiating. Can you get me inside your head for a minute before I start pulling these out from you one by one? BLAIR: Well it's pretty crowded in there. What is it that you wanted access to? I gave you my password to everything the other day. What else do you want? DAVID: Is this going to be this difficult today? Are we going to do that? Or are we going to be cooperative? BLAIR: I'm feeling a little punchy. DAVID: Yeah, I see. I see you are. BLAIR: I'm in another hotel room. This is day 31 of a 36 day road trip. I tweeted today, "Okay. I've answered the question, how much travel is too much?". DAVID: Yeah. BLAIR: Getting into my head, I think these tips, I considered it kind of a beginner's guide to negotiating. I don't consider myself to be an expert on negotiating. But you can't advise people on the subject of selling and pricing without knowing something about negotiating, so a while ago I took a bunch of the best practices that I've encountered on the subject of negotiating, and kind of put it into one place. That's I think what we're going to talk about today. I'll call it a beginner's guide to negotiating, and we're referencing to these 10 tips that I've published previously. DAVID: Hopefully it will be more than a beginner's guide. But we'll just set people's expectations low. BLAIR: Yeah, right. DAVID: Then we'll exceed them. BLAIR: That's exactly what I was doing. DAVID: There are 10 in here. But there are two of them that we've actually had the chance to talk about in previous episodes. I will reference all 10 of them. But then with two of them I'm going to point people to a previous episode if they want to really bone up on all that stuff. DAVID: The first one is, avoid over-investing. This is one that we have talked about. It was in a recent episode. It was called Selling In One Lesson. The idea is that the more somebody wants it, the more at a disadvantage they are, right? Just summarize that for us and then we'll move on to the number two one. Over-investing is the first one. BLAIR: Yeah, so you can, a good metaphor for negotiating would be a poker game where there's times when you're bluffing, when you're playing certain hands. But in particular the idea of bluffing. Or calling somebody else's bluff. You can apply some of the tips that we'll talk about here. If it's very clear to the client that you want this so bad, and it's clear to the client not just from what you say, but from all of the free work that you have done, all of the costs that you've incurred. If you are clearly over-invested in the sale then you do not have much of a bargaining position. Because you are demonstrating through your behavior that you want it more than the client does. Therefor the client is the one with the power in the relationship. BLAIR: It's a big broad rule. Avoid over-investing in the sale. As you pointed out, we covered this in detail in the podcast, Selling In One Lesson. DAVID: Okay. Even if you do desperately need it, don't act like it. BLAIR: Right. DAVID: Second, and here we want to start diving in in more detail. The second principle for negotiating is, ask the question, "Have we already won?". As I read that, I wasn't sure exactly what you meant. That led me to dive a little bit deeper into this, and I found it really interesting. "Have we already won?". Are you really asking that specific question? Or is it more just framing the negotiating in your head? BLAIR: This is a negotiating point specific to the topic of negotiating with procurement. This comes up a lot, I wrote about this in my book, Pricing Creativity: A Guide To Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. In the last month in the various places I've been, and the talks that I've done, and the training I've done, procurement has come up a lot. Where I'll talk about a principle and somebody says, "Yeah, but you don't understand. That doesn't work with procurement". BLAIR: The role of procurement, and I learned the most from this listening to a talk by a guy named Tom Kinnaird. Tom was head of procurement at WPP. Gerry Preece is another great resource on negotiating with procurement people. Gerry is an ex P&G global design procurement person who has a consulting practice, and he's written a great book on dealing with procurement. It's called Buying Less For Less. I think the subtitle is The Marketing Procurement Problem. BLAIR: When I was listening to Tom Kinnaird, who was former head of procurement at WPP and is now a consultant, he was giving away at a conference in London I was also speaking at, he was giving away some insider procurement tips. One of the tips he gave away was, you need to know that procurement often lies. When procurement shows up at the end of a negotiation, when you feel like you are the ordained firm, you've either won the business or you're in the pole position, and then procurement shows up to negotiate the final deal. In that situation, almost greater than nine out of 10 times, you have won. You've already won, and the concessions that procurement is demanding that you make, it's not mandatory that you make them. BLAIR: Procurement's going to communicate to you that, in order for you to win the business, that it's still a competitive situation, they're still considering other firms. In order for you to win the business you have to cut price. The general rule of thumb is, if procurement shows up late and starts using that language on you, they're lying. I talk about this in my next article. I'm actually quite heated about it in the next article. So far I'm only at the unedited version of it. DAVID: Still very angry. BLAIR: Yeah. It will be published by the time this podcast goes to air. Hopefully it's a little bit more measured. But in it I make the point that procurement is the only profession in the world that I know of where they're taught that it's okay to lie. It's okay to outright lie in the course of everyday business. When they show up late and say, "You need to sharpen your pencil. We've got three bids. You're the highest bidder. You need to get your price to X or you're not getting the business", they're almost always lying. BLAIR: Now when procurement shows up at the beginning and they navigate the entire purchase process, you have another problem. They're not lying. It's an even bigger problem. They're seeing what it is that they're buying as a commodity, so you have to ask yourself, should you be even participating in a process where the client clearly does not value what you do, and it's seen as an expense to be minimized rather than an investment to be made? But the lesson is, so the tip is, ask the question, "Have you already won?". BLAIR: When you're in a situation where it feels like you've won, and then procurement comes in and says, "You haven't won yet. You've got to get past us. You have to give us all of these concessions", don't believe them. In fact I would go further and say, "We have this idea that we've got to throw procurement a bone in a situation like this. We'll give them this one win and then they'll go away". That's not how they work. They're trained to keep asking until you say no, so you want to start with no. BLAIR: We could go deeper into that. We could do a whole podcast on negotiating with procurement. But that's the tip. You ask yourself before you start giving concessions away, ask yourself, "Wait a minute. Have I already won here? Is it really necessary for me to make these concessions?". Because in a lot of situations you have already won, and it is not in your interest to make any concessions whatsoever. DAVID: The main clue is found in when procurement comes. At the beginning or the end. BLAIR: Yes. DAVID: That's the second one, okay. The third tip here takes this further, and it's around the idea that procurement lies regularly. Not just about this one thing that we're talking about that relates to how to decipher the timing and whether you've actually won. BLAIR: Yeah, so it is a recurring theme here. You might think, I always say, "Attack ideas. Don't attack people and organizations". But I always make an exception for procurement. Reid Holden, who's written a couple of great books on pricing and also on negotiating, and he infiltrated the world of procurement. He has this great line, and I repeat it often. "80 percent of procurement people give the other 20 percent a bad name". DAVID: As opposed to 20-80, yeah. You're flipping that around, right? BLAIR: Yeah. In the story I'm writing, I'm writing two different examples of two different agencies pitching two different pieces of business and then having to deal with procurement. One hold their ground and the other one doesn't hold their ground. The example where the agency holds their ground, they're told in the beginning, "The account is a $500,000 a year retainer", and so they do a little pilot project for free. They prove validation. Then they're handed off to procurement and procurement says, "The fees are not $500,000. They're $300,000. Take it or leave it". The firm walked away, and in the end the client came back and said, "Oh, no no. We want you to work with us. You can have the original $500,000". BLAIR: As I was talking to the agency president who was telling me this story, I said to him, "If I were you in that situation. If I'd heard that from the procurement person, I would want to get the client and the procurement person in the room together. I would want to look them both in the eyes and say, 'I want to know which one of you lied to me. You said it was $500,000 in fees. You said it's not $500,000, it's $300,000. One of you lied. Which one was it?'". BLAIR: We know who the liar is. The liar is always procurement, right? Because they're taught that it's okay to lie. But I just imagine, and I'm ranting in this article, and you can feel me getting emotional now. Because I can't believe that we continue to give this egregious behavior a free pass. We need to call out irresponsible practices and outright lies when we hear them from our clients and our clients' procurement department. I hope I've addressed the issue of three procurement lies. I feel like we should probably get off the subject of procurement. DAVID: Well I turned the recorder off a long time ago, and what people are going to hear instead of you ranting is me providing a very reasonable response to all of these things. BLAIR: Instead of my therapy while I lie on your couch. I'm going to a marketing procurement conference in London. I think it's in June. I'm really looking forward to being in the room with these people, and having an open conversation about what I think of their business practices. DAVID: The third point is, beware of procurement lies. Let me just read some of these and then we'll go to the next point. "It's down to you and one other". That's one lie. Another one is, "Yours is the highest bid". Another is, "You have to cut your price to remain in contention", or all these other things that you might hear. BLAIR: Or, "Take it or leave it. There's no negotiating. There's no middle ground. Here's my offer. Take it or leave it". That's another one. DAVID: Right, yeah. Then a concession, you say, is an invitation to ask for more. All right. Let's get you back down to happy land, and we'll move off of procurement. BLAIR: Well we're still going to talk about procurement a little bit here in the next one. Go ahead. DAVID: The fourth point is, outwait the waiter. Outwait the waiter is the fourth point. Talk about that. BLAIR: Yeah. I forget where I heard this idea from first, because I really would like to attribute to the various sources that I've pulled all of these things from. It might be Chris Voss who wrote, "Never split the difference. Negotiate like your life depends on it". Or it might be Jim Camp. Or it might be Tom Kinnaird. I don't remember who. But the idea is, when you're in the final negotiations with people, and again it's almost always procurement. Because it's procurement who's trained in negotiating. That's another point. We really need to be trained in negotiating to counteract those on the client side who are trained in negotiating. BLAIR: One of the tactics that they do is, after you've won, or you think you've won, they slow everything down. Procurement will say, "I'll get back to you in this time period", and then they'll take longer. You'll reach out to them and leave a message, and they'll just kind of stretch things out to make you sweat and to make you more nervous. That's the way they can extract more concessions from you. BLAIR: Again, if you think back to the formula that we talked about in Selling In One Lesson, P equals DB over D. Your power in the sale is a function of your desirability, is your desirability greater than your own desire? Because if it's not, if you're communicating that your desire for the client and the engagement is higher than the client's desire, then you have the least power in the relationship. The tactic when procurement is trying to slow things down to make you sweat is, you slow things down even more. If they take 24 hours to get back to you, you take 48 hours. You communicate to them that, "Yeah, that's fine. We're in no rush. I mean, if this is going to happen it's going to happen. If it isn't, that's fine too". BLAIR: It's almost a game of, and there are times when negotiating really is a game and it really should be fun. It's never fun if you're over-invested in the sale, right? DAVID: Yeah, right. BLAIR: But it should be fun, and you should play this game. Instead of being anxious you just play it out and outwait them. If they delay, you delay longer. If they say they can't speak for 48 hours, you say you can't speak for 96 hours, etc. DAVID: Just multiply by two. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: They're saying, "We need to slow this down in some way", and they're expecting you to indicate some investment in the sale. Like minor panic or whatever. Instead you're flipping this around and saying, "Ah, no problem at all. Do you need more time?". BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: "That's fine. We're not in any hurry, okay". BLAIR: You got it. DAVID: Got it, so that's the fourth point. The fifth point here is to beware the white knight. I don't think we need to talk too much about this one, because in a slightly different context we did talk about this in an episode called How To Drive Your Employees Batshit Crazy. Here we were talking more about management and so on. But the principle is the same. It's this idea that we are going to bring in the big white knight to save the day. Just give us a few sentences on this one. BLAIR: Yeah, the white knight is usually the senior person on your team. There's some negotiating going back and forth. Everything's proceeding, maybe well but slowly. Maybe it doesn't feel like it's proceeding well. But the principle or the senior person swoops in and says, "You know what? I'm going to fix, I'm going to get this deal done in one fell swoop". They show up and make a concession, thinking, "Okay. I'll just make the one concession and close on this". What they don't understand is, they've just undone a lot of work being done by other good people. BLAIR: Sometimes it makes sense, if you think of the previous tip about outwait the waiter. Sometimes it makes sense to just, it's part of the negotiation. To slow things down. When the principle shows up to speed things up and says, "I'm going to make this one concession and close the deal", then they realize, that one concession is really just the beginning. They have just created a whole new set of problems, and the likelihood that the agency is going to close this business at a profitable position has just diminished significantly. BLAIR: The idea is, be careful about allowing the senior person, usually the principle, to swoop in at the last minute and make a concession that they think is going to just close the deal. Because it usually doesn't work that way. DAVID: Yeah. On the other side of the table, they've discovered where the weakness is and how they can get even more concessions. Because you've tipped your hand. That's a good one. DAVID: All right, number six. Decide your give and gets in advance. Decide your give and gets in advance. Which is opposite of what you just talked about, where somebody else swoops in without much consultation. We might make a concession, but we're going to do it very intentionally. We're not going to be willy nilly here. Decide your give and gets in advance. Who's doing this? The team as whole? Anybody that's in a position of power? How does this work? BLAIR: That's a good question. It's not just the person who's on the front lines. It's the people ultimately who have to live with the decision. It's a senior member. It's probably a team decision or the decision in the principle. The idea here is similar to going into an auction, right? We go to an auction, we think, "I'm not going to do anything stupid", and we end up bidding these crazy high prices. Because in part, loss aversion bias kicks in. We make a bid, we mentally own it, and then somebody outbids us and now we've lost something that we just a second ago emotionally owned. BLAIR: What the science shows is, we value losing something about two times as much as we value gaining it. In an auction that causes us to do crazy things. The way you combat that going into an auction is, you have an honest conversation with yourself about what your absolute maximum price is, and you do not deviate from that maximum price whatsoever. You do not allow yourself to get swept up in the moment. You hold the line by making the decision in advance. BLAIR: The principle here of, "Decide your give gets in advance", is the same thing. You decide, what are you willing to give up in advance in the negotiation? What are you not willing to give up? What is it that you absolutely need to get from the client, and what are you willing to take a pass on? You make those decisions in advance so that you do not find yourself in the middle of a negotiation, while at the table or in the conversation, giving away something that you are going to regret later. You just draw the boundaries in advance of the negotiation.   DAVID: I want to take a slight detour here and ask you a question. Because we're assuming that this is occurring at the outset of a new relationship in many cases. If you do this right, do you have to play these same games in subsequent negotiations with the same client? Or do they get and sort of figure out your style and where the lines are, so that it's a little bit more efficient later? BLAIR: Yeah. There's two different camps here, and we may be opening a big can of worms. I mean, it's a legitimate question. There's the negotiating with procurement camp, where if you really are using these principles and you're getting into these protracted things and you have these standoffs, you win. You've won the first round. That does not mean that procurement's not coming back for you even harder. When you're going into a relationship with that type of organization, you're going to win some battles. Ultimately you will lose the war. Ultimately everybody loses the war. BLAIR: The idea is that you get to a point where, "All right. This relationship is no longer fruitful. They've kind of beaten all of the margin out of us over the long term". You know, hopefully it was a good run. BLAIR: Then on the other camp would be good clients where you're not dealing with procurement, or they're more of a value buyer where you just have to use one or two of these techniques, and you're not setting up a long term war where you're constantly battling each other. It really could be one or the other, where you're constantly in a negotiation. Always defending what you know is an onslaught that you're ultimately going to lose in the end, but it still might be worth it. It might be a three, four year good run and it's worth fighting the battle. Or other situations where you just find yourself using one or two of these techniques and that's it. Then you find yourself in a good relationship with a value buyer who really values what it is that you do. DAVID: Yeah. I find that when I talk with my clients, and we share some clients, it's dispiriting enough when they have to enter these negotiations with a new client. But when they've worked with a client for years and then this gets turned on them again, when they want to review the relationship. They almost are just intentionally forgetting everything that happened over the last four years, and you have to prove yourself again. There isn't much in business that can pull the rug out from under your confidence and slap you in the face than something like that. I don't even know why I'm saying this. It just hits me at the moment that it's very discouraging for people to have to do that over and over again. BLAIR: I agree. DAVID: All right. Number seven. Neuter the final negotiators. Neuter ... It's like we're watching a Game of Thrones episode here. What kind of a serial killer are you in disguise? Neuter the final negotiators. Okay. What kind of knife do we use here? BLAIR: Maybe there's a better word for neuter. What I'm talking about is, the moment that you have the greatest amount of power in the relationship is the moment when the client, not the procurement person, but the client says, "You're hired". DAVID: Mm-hmm (affirmative). BLAIR: When that happens, and often you go from the client saying you're hired to, then you get handed off to procurement or legal or finance or whomever. That other department will kind of, you've got to fight another war over there. But if you know the war is coming, if you know, if you're used to dealing with the same types of clients and you know there's a battle with procurement coming, use your power at its height. The moment you're hired. BLAIR: I had a client once who called me and said, "We're doing great. We're closing all of these really big deals. Seven figures. We've got all the senior decision makers in the room. But I have the same problem. It's like every time I get a call from procurement, 'You've got to knock 200 grand off of this', etc". BLAIR: I said, "Okay. Next time it happens, next time you close a deal, in the room you have the senior decision makers. You say to the client, 'Okay. We've got a problem here'. Everybody's in agreement. We're going to do this. Here's the price. Here's the scope. Everybody's in agreement. Everybody's excited about moving forward and really looking for the engagement. Then you stop and say, 'Okay. We've got a problem. We've just agreed on this. The price is the price. We've talked about the value that we're going to create. BLAIR: I'm going to get a call from your procurement person, and that procurement person is going to tell me that if I don't knock $200,000 or $300,000 off this price we're not going to do business together. The price is the price. We've just agreed on what we all agree is fair for the value that we're going to create. The price is the price. There's no economies of scale here for us to make the price cheaper. Can we agree, when procurement calls me', and then you look over at the client side and say, 'When procurement calls me, who can I get them to call?'". BLAIR: Now you're in this little, it's a little bit like a power play move but not as bad as it sounds. In that the senior client on the client side of the table generally will take responsibility and say, "No. Have that person call me". That's what I mean by neuter the final negotiators. Leverage the fact that you have the most power to combat procurement in the moment when the client says, "You're hired". BLAIR: Now the higher up you're dealing in a client organization, the more power you have. In this example my client, the agency, was dealing with senior people on the client side. Presidents of divisions. They weren't dealing with brand managers. Bu even some brand managers might be willing to lend some weight to helping you get around procurement. But again, you ask in that moment. The moment when the client says, "I want to do this", or, "We want to hire you". That's when you have the most power to neuter the final negotiators. DAVID: Well I think this would be fun to do. Because I can see saying it with kind of a twinkle in your eye, and they just smile and look at each other. Because they know that that is coming, and they kind of chuckle and say, "Yeah yeah. Here's who it'll be. This is what they'll say. We'll take care of it". I love this one. DAVID: All right. We're on the way to 10, and we're at number eight. This one is an A B thing. What you say here is that you should either be ruthless, or you should be collaborative. One place is going to take you somewhere. The other place is going to take you somewhere else. Which is which here? Be ruthless or be collaborative? BLAIR: Yeah, so it's both but you pick your spot. You be ruthless with other professional negotiators, and you be collaborative with clients. With good clients. Because you have to work with the clients. You don't want to get into ... If you're setting the tone of the relationship moving forward where you're in this somewhat ruthless battle, you have to be aware of creating the conditions, if we're just not a very fruitful relationship moving forward. But you really should be ruthless with professionals. Again, you could hear me getting a little bit emotional as I talk about procurement people. You don't want to do that. BLAIR: One of the advantages procurement people have is, they are not emotionally invested in the sale. They don't give a shit at all, right? DAVID: They aren't even people. They don't even have emotions. BLAIR: "They're bureaucrats, Morty. Shoot them". Or, "They're robots". It's a Rick and Morty line. We're going to get into trouble with the 20 percent of the procurement people who are out there. Again, I just say to my friends in procurement, I don't actually have any friends in procurement, but it's possible that one day I might have a friend in procurement. I would just say that, the problem isn't just in the procurement profession. It's actually in the organizations above procurement who give license to procurement to procure creative and marketing service as though they were widgets. They think that they can drive cost down without affecting the quality or the value to be created. You can't really do that. The responsibility isn't just with procurement. BLAIR: But back to, these people aren't emotionally invested. We, especially if you're the creative person coming up with the concept, we tend to be emotionally invested in the results. You be ruthless with them. You hold the line. As I've already said, they're going to ask until they hear no, so you start with no. There's no need to build rapport or kindness or to ever negotiate out of emotion. If you find yourself being emotional, see if you can't retreat, regroup, let go of whatever it is that you're emotionally attached to. Then re-engage again when you're emotionally detached. But it's like, be ruthless. Hold the line. Don't fall into the trap of this ridiculous idea that you're going to befriend a procurement or a professional negotiator and you're going to, somehow through the strength of your personality, you're going to get to a solution. BLAIR: As you've pointed out, they're robots, or they're bureaucrats. I use that term in this moment out of a little bit of a respect. What I mean by that is, they're not clouded by emotions. They've got a job to do. They've got an objective. They're marching steadily toward that objective and not letting their emotions cloud their judgment, so you should be able to operate at that same unemotional ruthless level. DAVID: All right. Number nine is, use a positive no. Use a positive no. Can you explain that? I presume you can. BLAIR: Let's hope I can. DAVID: Yeah. BLAIR: There are so many different ways that you can say no. I think so many of us have a hard time delivering the word no, because in so many of our businesses, what we do is we find a creative solution to every problem. We don't accept that the answer has to be no to something, so therefore we have a hard time saying no. BLAIR: There are all kinds of different techniques on how to deliver a positive no. I'll just give you a couple of them here. First you just kind of, if there's an objection, you just make sure that you restate the objection. "Okay, I'm hearing that affordability is an issue for you". Then you deliver your no. You start with kind of a yes. "Yes, I hear that affordability is an issue for you". Then you deliver your no. "Listen, I can't give you that price in this specific situation". Then you layer in another yes. "But what I can do is stretch out the payment terms a little bit", or something else. Or throw in some other forms of value. Throughout the entire time, your attitude is always positive. It's not, "Oh, you know, I don't think we can do this". It's not, "There's no way we can do this". BLAIR: There's a time for, "No way". But there's a time when you want to use a positive no. You're nodding your head saying, "Yeah, I'm absolutely hearing you that affordability is an issue for you on this. I can't give you that price in this situation that you're looking for. But here's what I can do for you". Then deliver what it is you can. "I can throw in some extra value. I can stretch out the payment terms a little bit for you". It's all about delivering no with a positive attitude. BLAIR: I'm not saying that's always the approach. I think there are times when it's just a hard line, "No. Take it or leave it", walk away. But in many situations it makes sense to deliver a positive no. DAVID: You're also demonstrating that you've listened. That you care. You may make a decision that's not one they would prefer, but you're not just simply closing up and not listening to them. That's part of restating this to them. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: All right. The final one is to use alternatives to no, and you've got a few examples here. Are these used with clients or with pros? I think I probably should have asked that question many times here, because it's been interesting to hear the distinction. Using alternatives to no. Who do you use these with, primarily? BLAIR: Yeah, I would put most of these, like use a positive no or use an alternative to no, I would put most of them under the collaborate column. That means with clients. Where I find myself tending to want to be more ruthless and just deliver hard nos to procurement. Now that's me a little bit worked up emotionally, violating what I said earlier. The truth is, a really good negotiator will use positive nos and alternatives to nos with procurement from time to time. It's not just all hard lines. Although I really believe that you begin with a super hard line with procurement. BLAIR: I think generally speaking, for sure you should use these approaches with clients. The people that you want to have a fruitful working relationship with that. A great alternative to no, and I think this one comes from Chris Voss. If it's not Chris it's somebody else. I'll also, I'm recalling that some of the other techniques I probably got from Reid Holden in his book, Negotiating With Backbone. It's a small book. It's a really good book. Both of those books are great books on negotiating. BLAIR: His line, and again I think it's Chris Voss. Instead of saying no just ask, "Well how would I do that?". If procurement is saying, "Listen, the fees in your proposal, we're not giving you that. We're giving you 60 percent of what you've asked for. You can take it or leave it". Then you essentially turn the problem back onto, instead of saying no you just turn the problem back onto the client. "Okay, 60 percent of the fee. How would I do that? How would I deliver the services that you're looking for at just 60 percent?". DAVID: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and a pause, right? At that point? BLAIR: Right. Always a pause, and we're not talking about that here, but I've talked about the power of pause before. When you pause after you deliver a no or an objection or an obstacle for the client to overcome, you want to pause because whatever you hear next gives you so much information about how much power you have in the buy sell relationship. BLAIR: You could also use a, "Yes, but", instead of asking, "How would I do that?". The client might say, "I don't know. That's your problem. How you do it is your problem". You might say, "Well do you think we have 40 percent profit margin built into this?". "I don't know, that's your problem". You could say, "Yes, but". You could say, "Well you know, I suppose I could deliver on 60 percent of that. I mean, if that's your bottom line. I guess we'll just put the interns on it and remove access to senior people. Access to principles. We'll take our creative director off of it, and yeah, we can meet your price that way". DAVID: They're starting to get a warm feeling. BLAIR: Yeah. I mean, this is where we're having fun now, right? I think when the client asks you to do something ridiculous, you could ask the client, "Well okay. How would I do that?". Or if the client's not going to participate in that question you can offer a solution. Again, this speaks to the title of Gerry Preece's book, Buying Less For Less. The idea that when procurement is buying marketing services, they drive the cost down. What they don't appreciate is, they're driving the quality down. Because in a people based business, the way you get your costs down is, you get less expensive people on the job. BLAIR: Just communicate that to the client. "Okay, we can give you that price. But here are all of the things that we have to strip out". What you're almost certainly going to hear is, "No, we want those deliverables or value drivers at the price you quoted". That's where you can laugh and say, "Yeah, well let me tell you about the things that I want in my life too, that I'm not going to get either". DAVID: One of the things that I've been thinking about my own situation over the years, and something that's hit me. It's given me this kind of warm feeling. I know that sounds weird. But it's when I find myself getting a little bit angry, and that's because I feel like I'm being taken advantage of, or not appreciated to the level I should be. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: I can relax and tell myself, "I don't need this that badly. Why don't I just smile and make this more of an interesting exercise?". Not so much a contest, but an exercise to see what I can learn. As long as I'm willing to walk away from it, I don't understand why I'm getting angry. I need to treat this more as a business conversation. It frees up my mind to think in these categories and not get all wrapped up in myself at some point. BLAIR: Yeah. I call that smile and defy. You smile to yourself for a minute. Remind yourself, "Let's not get carried away here. This is just a game". Then you defy what it is that's been asked of you. Then you just see what happens next. You have that ability to do that. I have that ability to do that. Because we're not over-invested in the sale. We're not allocating significant resources from our businesses to close any one particular deal. DAVID: Yeah. BLAIR: When you don't over-invest, and I know and work with lots of agencies who have learned to not over-invest in the sale, everything changes when you're not over-invested. It's easier for you to smile. It's easier for you to use some of these techniques. It's easier for you to walk away from poor fits, knowing that if it really is a good fit, it will come back on your terms. DAVID: Care a lot, but don't care too early. That should be the title of this. BLAIR: That's great advice, yeah. DAVID: All right. We will put some bonus ideas in the show notes. Marcus will help us with that. These are 10, and we'll throw some more in there. This was really fun to talk about, Blair. Let's hope that none of these procurement folks listen to this before you meet them in London, or we will have some real life neutering taking place. BLAIR: I would prefer they did listen, and we had some frank and fruitful discussions. DAVID: Okay. Thank-you, Blair. BLAIR: Thanks David.

Ep #84: If you think about that maybe you don't charge enough for your service, then it could be the time to raise your prices. Or if you are new in your business then don’t sell yourself short. In this episode, Blair Enns shares how to how to price your services. You will learn the principles of how to set your prices, how to negotiate with people on the service packages you have, how to raise your price and close higher deals. Blair is on a mission to change the way creative services are bought and sold the world over.  He is the founder and CEO of Win Without Pitching, the sales training and coaching organization for creative professionals, and the author of two books on selling and pricing for creative professionals Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Prot Beyond the Billable Hour and The Win Without Pitching Manifesto.  He is also the cohost, along with David C. Baker, of 2Bobs, the podcast on creative entrepreneurship.  Time Stamped Show Notes: [00:22] About the episode and Blair Enns [02:01] Blair started his career in an ad agency that led him to open a consulting business advising the ad agencies and design firms on business development [05:59] The difference in pricing when you move from the small town to the big city [08:31] How to set your price [13:34] Why some people get paid a lot and some stay with the low prices for a long time [17:03] How to price your service when you just starting out [22:27] An example of how to price a new business [29:49] How to negotiate the price [36:12] How to raise your price right now [42:39] Where to find Blair online [43:27] For the show notes go to marinabarayeva.com and subscribe to the Marketing for Creatives show   Let’s get in touch: Check what influencer you are as an entrepreneur. Take a quiz at marinabarayeva.com/influencer Did you get new insights? Please leave a short review on iTunes Follow on Instagram @MarinaBarayeva Follow on Twitter @MarinaBarayeva

Blair Enns is the founder of a training company for creative firms called Win Without Pitching and the author of a fantastic book called Priving Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. He is also the co-host of a great podcast called 2Bobs alongside our last guest on the show David […] The post The Six Rules of Pricing with Blair Enns appeared first on Boutique Growth.

Blair Enns is on a mission to change the way creative services are bought and sold. At his company, Win Without Pitching, he offers sales training and coaching to creative professionals + shares his wisdom in his Win Without Pitching Manifesto. Blair teaches pricing strategies, such as how to raise prices in order to attract more clients and how putting prices on your website will actually drive potential customers away. He is also the co-host, along with David C. Baker, of the 2Bobs podcast, a show focused on creative entrepreneurship. In this episode, Blair and I discuss various marketing strategies in his Win Without Pitching Manifesto and how to implement them in your business. Resources Mentioned Win Without Pitching website Win Without Pitching Pricing Creativity Win Without Pitching Manifesto Sponsors Gifyyy Booth Freedom Edits -   I have covered your first order…yep, it's FREE.

Illustration by Charis Poon On MAEKAN It Up #013, Eugene and Charis discuss the bold move by Black Girls Code to say no to a $125K USD donation from Uber, and how creatives should look at their relationship with money thanks to a 2Bobs podcast (shout out to Myke for putting us onto it).  Eugene talks about the anxiety doing MAEKAN It Up (1:51) Black Girls Code says it turned down $125,000 from Uber (3:43) Black Girls Code Reflecting On One Very, Very Strange Year At Uber by Susan J. Fowler (4:45) Would you take money from somebo --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/maekan/support

Illustration by Charis Poon On MAEKAN It Up #013, Eugene and Charis discuss the bold move by Black Girls Code to say no to a $125K USD donation from Uber, and how creatives should look at their relationship with money thanks to a 2Bobs podcast (shout out to Myke for putting us onto it).  Eugene talks about the anxiety doing MAEKAN It Up (1:51) Black Girls Code says it turned down $125,000 from Uber (3:43) Black Girls Code Reflecting On One Very, Very Strange Year At Uber by Susan J. Fowler (4:45) Would you take money from somebody you didn't fundamentall --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/maekanitup/message