The Ezra Klein Show

What do you do when you're faced with evidence that challenges your ideology? Do you engage with that new information? Are you willing to change your mind about your most deeply held beliefs? Are you pre-disposed to be more rigid or more flexible in your thinking? That's what political psychologist and neuroscientist Leor Zmigrod wants to know. In her new book, The Ideological Brain, she examines the connection between our biology, our psychology, and our political beliefs. In today's episode, Leor speaks with Sean about rigid vs. flexible thinking, how our biology and ideology influence each other, and the conditions under which our ideology is more likely to become extreme. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)Guest: Leor Zmigrod, political psychologist, neuroscientist, and author of The Ideological Brain Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are lots of stories to tell about the Covid pandemic. Most of them, on some level, are about politics, about decisions that affected people's lives in different — and very unequal — ways. Covid hasn't disappeared, but the crisis has subsided. So do we have enough distance from it to reflect on what we got right, what we got wrong, and what we can do differently when the next crisis strikes? Professor Frances E. Lee — co-author of In Covid's Wake: How Our Politics Failed Us — thinks we do. In this episode, she speaks with Sean about how our politics, our assumptions, and our biases affected decision-making and outcomes during the pandemic. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Frances E. Lee, professor of politics and public affairs at Princeton and co-author of In Covid's Wake: How Our Politics Failed Us Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Philosophy often feels like a disconnected discipline, obsessed with tedious and abstract problems. But MIT professor Kieran Setiya believes philosophical inquiry has a practical purpose outside the classroom — to help guide us through life's most challenging circumstances. He joins Sean to talk about self-help, FOMO, and midlife crises. This episode originally aired in April 2024. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Kieran Setiya, author of Life Is Hard: How Philosophy Can Help Us Find Our Way and Midlife: A Philosophical Guide. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What exactly is the basis for democracy? Arguably Iiberalism, the belief that the government serves the people, is the stone on which modern democracy was founded. That notion is so ingrained in the US that we often forget that America could be governed any other way. But political philosopher John Gray believes that liberalism has been waning for a long, long time. He joins Sean to discuss the great liberal thinker Thomas Hobbes and America's decades-long transition away from liberalism. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: John Gray, political philosopher and author of The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have an exciting announcement! Vox Members now get access to ad-free podcasts. If you sign up, you'll get unlimited access to reporting on vox.com, exclusive newsletters, and all of our podcasts — including The Gray Area — ad-free. Plus, you'll play a crucial role in helping our show get made. Check it out at vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There's a lot of uncertainty when it comes to artificial intelligence. Technologists love to talk about all the good these tools can do in the world, all the problems they might solve. Yet, many of those same technologists are also warning us about all the ways AI might upend society, how it might even destroy humanity. Julia Longoria, Vox host and editorial director, spent a year trying to understand that dichotomy. The result is a four-part podcast series — called Good Robot — that explores the ideologies of the people funding, building, and driving the conversation about AI. Today Julia speaks with Sean about how the hopes and fears of these individuals are influencing the technology that will change all of our lives. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Vox Host and Editorial Director Julia Longoria Good Robot is available in the Vox Unexplainable feed. Episode 1 Episode 2 Episode 3 Episode 4 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why do we keep comparing AI to humans? Jaron Lanier — virtual reality pioneer, digital philosopher, and the author of several best-selling books on technology — thinks that we should stop. In his view, technology is only valuable if it has beneficiaries. So instead of asking "What can AI do?," we should be asking, "What can AI do for us?" In today's episode, Jaron and Sean discuss a humanist approach to AI and how changing our understanding of AI tools could change how we use, develop, and improve them. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Jaron Lanier, computer scientist, artist, and writer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

American government has a speed issue. Both parties are slow to solve problems. Slow to build new things. Slow to make any change at all. Until now. The Trump administration is pushing through sweeping changes as fast as possible, completely changing the dynamic. And the Democrats? They've been slow to respond. Slow to mount a defense. Slow to change tactics. Still. Ezra Klein — writer, co-founder of Vox, and host of The Ezra Klein Show for the New York Times — would like to offer a course correction. In a new book, Abundance, Klein and co-author Derek Thompson, argue that the way to make a better, brighter future, is to build and invent the things we need. To do that, liberals need to push past hyper-coalitional and bureaucratic ways of getting things done. In this episode, Ezra speaks with Sean about the policy decisions that have rendered government inert and how we can make it easier to build the things we want and need. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Ezra Klein, co-author of Abundance and host of The Ezra Klein Show Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Humans hate uncertainty. It makes us feel unsafe and uneasy. We often organize our lives to avoid it. When it's foisted upon us, we don't always know how to act. But writer and journalist Maggie Jackson argues that uncertainty can actually be good for us, and that we're doing ourselves a disservice by avoiding it. She tells Sean that embracing uncertainty can spark creativity, improve problem solving skills, and help us lead better, more hopeful lives. This episode originally aired in January 2024. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Maggie Jackson, author of Uncertain: The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How often do you find silence? And do you know what to do with it when you do? Today's guest is essayist and travel writer Pico Iyer. His latest book is Aflame: Learning From Silence, which recounts his experiences living at a Catholic monastery in California after losing his home in a fire. He speaks with Sean about the restorative power of silence, and how being quiet can prepare us for a busy and overstimulated world. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Pico Iyer, writer and author of Aflame: Learning From Silence Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you could change anything about your personality, anything at all, what would it be? And why would you want to change it?Writer Olga Khazan spent a year trying to answer those questions, and documented the experience in her new book Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. In this episode Sean speaks with Olga about the science of personality change, the work it takes to change yourself, and what makes up a personality, anyway. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Olga Khazan, author of Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are you ever happier not knowing something? As Aristotle famously claimed, “All human beings want to know.” But denial and avoidance are also human impulses. Sometimes they're even more powerful than our curiosity. In this episode Sean speaks with professor Mark Lilla about when we're better off searching for knowledge and when we're better off living in the dark. Lilla's new book is called Ignorance and Bliss: On Wanting Not to Know. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Mark Lilla, professor of humanities at Columbia University and author of Ignorance and Bliss: On Wanting Not to Know. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do you think of America's institutions? Alana Newhouse, founder and editor-in-chief of Tablet Magazine, says that may be the most important political question in America. In an essay published more than two years ago, Newhouse argued that there is a new political divide, one in which your place — and the place of your allies and adversaries — is determined by whether you believe that America's institutions should be fixed or destroyed. Her argument feels eerily prescient in light of the Trump administration's recent efforts to dismantle government programs. In this episode, which first aired in February of 2023, Alana and Sean debate what that divide means for America's present and future, and whether it supersedes labels like "left" or "right" and "Democrat" or "Republican." Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Alana Newhouse (@alananewhouse) editor-in-chief, Tablet and author of "Brokenism." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Americans are spending an historic amount of time alone, a phenomenon that is often referred to as an "epidemic of loneliness." But are we actually lonely? Or do we prefer being by ourselves? And if we do, what does that mean for us and our society? Today's guest is journalist Derek Thompson, who, in a recent essay for the Atlantic, challenges the conventional wisdom around loneliness. He argues that Americans prefer solitude, and that preference presents a wholly different kind of challenge for the country. Derek and Sean discuss the far-reaching effects of America's antisocial behavior, including what it means for our society, our politics, and our future. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Derek Thompson, staff writer, The Atlantic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Where is your attention right now? Where was it a minute ago? A second ago? Where will it be a minute from now? One of the primary features of this age — the age of the internet and smartphones and algorithmic feeds — is that our attention is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. This is no accident. Our devices and apps are engineered to constantly alert us to things that are important and to things that are not. That's because holding our attention is valuable. The time we spend reading, watching, and listening to content on our digital devices has been commodified, and that commodity is fueling the economy of the digital age. Today's guest is Chris Hayes, the host of All In with Chris Hayes on MSNBC and author of The Sirens' Call: How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. Chris speaks with Sean about how the attention industry is changing our economy, our society, and ourselves. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling). Guest: Chris Hayes, host of All In with Chris Hayes on MSNBC and author of The Sirens' Call: How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What does it take to be happy? Professor of psychology Laurie Santos just might have the answer. This week The Gray Area takes a break from its regular programming to bring you an episode of another podcast that we love. In this episode of Stay Tuned With Preet, host Preet Bharara interviews Laurie Santos, a psychology professor at Yale University, about what we all can do to be happier. The two discuss how to maximize your happiness, how to bring meaning to your career, self-care vs. caring for others, and the barriers to happiness that parents face. Host: Preet Bharara, host of Stay Tuned With Preet Guest: Laurie Santos, professor of psychology at Yale University, and host of The Happiness Lab Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is the first thing that you touch in the morning? What about the last thing you touch before you go to sleep? For many of us, it's our phone. Digital devices are with us constantly, often putting a digital layer between us and the world. The benefits of this are enormous: convenience, efficiency, and constant stimulation. But is there a personal cost to living in a mediated reality? Today's guest is Christine Rosen, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the author of the new book The Extinction of Experience: Being Human in a Disembodied World. Christine and Sean discuss how the digital revolution is affecting our social skills and our quality of life. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Christine Rosen, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the author of The Extinction of Experience: Being Human in a Disembodied World. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

At the beginning of the new year, many of us make pledges to change ourselves. We want to work out more. Or read more. Or cook more. Within a few months, some of us will have succeeded but many of us will have failed. When we do, we'll probably tell ourselves to try again, that failure inevitably leads to success. But is that true? And is failure really such a bad thing? In this episode, which originally aired in March of 2023, Sean interviews professor Costica Bradatan about his book In Praise of Failure: Four Lessons in Humility. The two explore different kinds of failure and discuss how embracing our limitations can teach us humility and ultimately be good for us. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Costica Bradatan, professor and author of In Praise of Failure: Four Lessons in Humility Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How can we find happiness? That's an old question. Since the beginning of philosophy people have been wondering what makes us happy and how to get more of it. But if you're a real person living in the real world, you know already that it's not possible to be happy all the time. So what do we do when we're experiencing depression or grief or a dark mood? Philosopher Mariana Alessandri thinks that we should stop trying to repress these feelings. In this conversation, which originally aired in 2023, Sean speaks with Mariana about her book Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves Through Dark Moods and how our obsession with staying positive has produced destructive emotional cycles. Host, Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Mariana Alessandri, philosopher and author of Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves Through Dark Moods Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Can you ever really know what's going on inside the mind of another creature? In some cases, like other humans, or dogs and cats, we might be able to guess with a bit of confidence. But what about octopuses? Or insects? What about AI systems — will they ever be able to feel anything? And if they do feel anything, what are our ethical obligations toward them? In today's episode, Vox staff writer Oshan Jarow brings those questions to philosopher of science Jonathan Birch. Birch is the principal investigator on the Foundations of Animal Sentience Project at the London School of Economics, and author of the recently released book, The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. Birch also convinced the UK government to consider lobsters, octopuses, and crabs sentient and therefore deserving of legal protection. This unique perspective earned Jonathan a place on Vox's Future Perfect 50 list, an annual celebration of the people working to make the future a better place. The list — published last month — includes writers, scientists, thinkers, and activists who are reshaping our world for the better. In this conversation, Oshan and Jonathan explore everything we know— and don't know — about sentience, and how to make ethical decisions about creatures who may possess it. Guest host: Oshan Jarow Guest: Jonathan Birch, Author of The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. Available for free on the Oxford Academic platform. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week, host Sean Illing gets personal when he asks professor and podcast host Scott Galloway: What's going on with men? There's a growing body of evidence that men are falling behind in education, the labor market, and other areas. And when you look at the numbers on drug overdoses and deaths by suicide, it's pretty bleak. Sean and Scott — both of whom are raising sons — talk about the struggles men are facing today, how parents can navigate the current moment, and the challenges they each faced as young men. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Scott Galloway, professor and podcast host Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The sheer feeling of aliveness. We all know what that is, even though it comes in many different forms. Maybe it's going for a long run at night. Or free-climbing a mountain. Or an intense meditation practice. Or that sensation you get when you're on the floor at a great concert. Call it a flow state or a religious experience or whatever you want, but it's a kind of ecstasy. People have been experiencing this for centuries, and in previous eras, they called it a mystical experience. In the modern world a word like “mystical” feels weird or out of place. Maybe when you hear it, you think of a fringe religious figure. Or a spiritual teacher. Or crystal-peddling influencers on Instagram. But the study of mysticism — that feeling of intense experience — has been the focus of philosophers and theologians for centuries. So what can we learn from the tradition of mystical thought? Might it help us live better and more meaningful lives in the 21st century? Today's guest is Simon Critchley. He's a writer and a philosopher at the New School in New York and the author of a new book called Mysticism. In this conversation, he tells host Sean Illing how we can all get outside our own heads and enjoy what it feels like to be alive. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Simon Critchley, philosopher and author of the book Mysticism Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, host Sean Illing speaks with marine biologist Ayana Elizabeth Johnson about her book What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures. Johnson approaches climate change with informed optimism, encouraging us to stop waiting for the worst to happen. She doesn't reject the realities of a warming planet but reminds us that doomerism is paralyzing us into inaction. In short, having a better climate future begins with envisioning one and then mapping the road to get there. This unique perspective earned Johnson a place on Vox's Future Perfect 50 list, an annual celebration of the people working to make the future a better place. The list — published last week — includes writers, scientists, thinkers, and activists who are reshaping our world for the better. In honor of the Future Perfect 50 — and to remind us all that a better climate future is possible — The Gray Area team is sharing Sean's interview with Johnson, which originally aired in September 2024. Click here to find out more about the 2024 Future Perfect 50. And click here to read Johnson's profile. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, marine biologist and author of What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What just happened? It's been almost two weeks since the presidential election, and many Americans are still grappling with the result. The political reckoning will probably last for months, if not years, and we may never know exactly why voters made the choices they did. But one thing is clear: the roughly 75 million people who voted for Trump were saying “No” to something. So what were they rejecting? Today's guest is Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and author of The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World. It's a book about democracy and the contradictions and conflicts at the heart of it. Beauchamp speaks with host Sean Illing about America's growing reactionary movement and what it could mean for the country's political future. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and author of The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Philosopher Alexandra Plakias says there are no awkward people, only awkward situations. In her book, Awkwardness: A Theory, Plakias explains the difference between embarrassment and awkwardness, how awkwardness can be used by people in power as a way of breaking social norms, and what exactly is happening when people aren't on the same social script. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Alexandra Plakias, author, Awkwardness: A Theory Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This has been an unusual week. Sean and the TGA team are still sifting through it all and figuring out what to think about the presidential election. In the meantime, our colleague Jonquilyn Hill has leapt into action. She and her team from the Explain It to Me podcast collected lots of listener questions in the aftermath of Trump's victory, and took them to the Vox reporters who know the most about what happened and what it all means. We'll be back with a new episode on Monday. Until then, check out Explain It to Me. ________________________ Wow, what a week. The country has a new president-elect, and our listeners have a ton of questions about what comes next. Why did Latino voters swing right? How will Democrats respond? What's going to happen to Donald Trump's court cases? Will Trump really do all the things he said he would during the campaign? Host Jonquilyn Hill sits down with Vox correspondents Christian Paz, Ian Millhiser, and Zack Beauchamp to answer all that and more. Submit your questions — about politics, or, if you need a break, about anything else — by calling 1-800-618-8545. You can also submit them here. Credits: Jonquilyn Hill, host Sofi LaLonde and Gabrielle Berbey, producers Cristian Ayala, engineer Carla Javier, supervising producer Caity PenzeyMoog, Anouck Dussaud, and Sarah Schweppe, fact checkers Jorge Just, Julia Longoria, and Natalie Jennings, editors  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What does it mean to be "woke"? It's become a catchall term to smear or dismiss anything that has any vague association with progressive politics. As a result, anytime you venture into an argument about “wokeness,” it becomes hopelessly entangled in a broader cultural battle. Today's guest, journalist and professor Musa al-Gharbi, helps us untangle "wokeness" from its fraught political context. The author of a new book, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, al-Gharbi explains what effects the movement is and isn't having on our society. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Musa al-Gharbi (@Musa_alGharbi), author, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What can ancient Rome teach us about American democracy? The Roman Republic fell for a lot of reasons: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. It sounds a lot like the problems America is facing today. This week's guest, historian Edward Watts, tells us what we can learn about America's future by studying Rome's past. Host: Sean Illing, (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Edward Watts, author, Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny and The Eternal Decline and Fall of Rome. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing speaks with one of his heroes: Werner Herzog. Herzog is a filmmaker, poet, and author of the memoir Every Man for Himself and God Against All. The two discuss "ecstatic truth," a term invented by Herzog to capture what he's really after in his work, why he's interested in Mars, and whether he thinks humanity is destroying itself. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Werner Herzog, author, Every Man for Himself and God Against All This episode was originally published in October of 2023. Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How important is complexity? At The Gray Area, we value understanding the details. We revel in complexity. But does our desire to understand that complexity sometimes over-complicate an issue? Journalist and bestselling author Ta-Nehisi Coates thinks so. This week on The Gray Area, Sean talks to Coates about his new book The Message, a collection of essays about storytelling, moral clarity, and the dangers of hiding behind complexity. The Message covers a lot of ground, but the largest section of the book — and the focus of this week's conversation — is about Coates's trip to the Middle East and the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Coates argues that the situation is not as complicated as most of us believe. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part three of our series on creativity, guest host Oshan Jarow speaks with philosopher of neuroscience Mark Miller about how our minds actually work. They discuss the brain as a predictive engine that builds our conscious experience for us. We're not seeing what we see. We're predicting what we should see. Miller says that depression, opioid use, and our love of horror movies can all be explained by this theory. And that injecting beneficial kinds of uncertainty into our experiences — embracing chaos and creativity — ultimately make us even better at prediction, which is one of the keys to happiness and well-being.  This is the third conversation in our three-part series about creativity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean revisits his interview with musician Laraaji, a pioneer of new age music who has recorded more than 50 albums since he was discovered busking in a park by Brian Eno. Laraaji and Sean discuss inspiration, flow states, and what moves us to create. This is the second conversation in our three shows in three days three-part series about creativity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is the relationship between creativity and artificial intelligence? Creativity feels innately human, but is it? Can a machine be creative? Are we still being creative if we use machines to assist in our creative output? To help answer those questions, Sean speaks with Meghan O'Gieblyn, the author of the book "God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning." She and Sean discuss how the rise of AI is forcing us to reflect on what it means to be a creative being and whether our relationship to the written word has already been changed forever. This is the first conversation in our three shows in three days three-part series about creativity. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Meghan O'Gieblyn (https://www.meghanogieblyn.com/) References: God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Anchor; 2021) Being human in the age of AI. The Gray Area. (Vox Media; 2023) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/being-human-in-the-age-of-ai/id1081584611?i=1000612148857 Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Children live with a beginner's mind. Every day is full of new discoveries, powerful emotions, and often unrealistically positive assumptions about the future. As adults, beginner's mind gives way to the mundane drudgeries of existence — and our brains seem to make it much harder for us to be happy. Should we be cool with that? We wrap up our three-part series on optimism with Paul Bloom, author of Psych: The Story of the Human Mind and Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning. He offers his thoughts on optimism and pessimism and walks Sean Illing through the differences between what we think makes us happy versus what actually does. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Paul Bloom (@paulbloom), psychologist, author and writer of the Substack Small Potatoes Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing has a special message for all you listeners: Look at me! We've made our first-ever video episode. See Sean in conversation with Yuval Noah Harari. Watch it with your friends and family and your friend's families and their family friends. It's on YouTube right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhx1sdX2bow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Climate change has become synonymous with doomsday, as though everyone is waiting for the worst to happen. But what is this mindset doing to us? Is climate anxiety keeping us from confronting the challenge? Ayana Elizabeth Johnson thinks so. In part two of our “Reasons to Be Cheerful” series, she talks to Sean Illing about her new book, What If We Get It Right? and makes the case that our best chance for survival is acting as though the future is a place in which we want to live. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Humans are good learners and teachers, constantly gathering information, archiving, and sharing knowledge. So why, after building the most sophisticated information technology in history, are we on the verge of destroying ourselves? We know more than ever before. But are we any wiser? Bestselling author of Sapiens and historian Yuval Noah Harari doesn't think so. This week Sean Illing talks with Harari, author of a mind-bending new book, Nexus: A Brief History of Information Networks, about how the information systems that shape our world often sow the seeds of destruction, and why the current AI revolution is just the beginning of a brand-new evolutionary process that might leave us all behind. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Yuval Noah Harari (@harari_yuval) Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There's a certain glamor to cynicism. As a culture, we've turned cynicism into a symbol of hard-earned wisdom, assuming that those who are cynical are the only ones with the courage to tell us the truth and prepare us for an uncertain future. Psychologist Jamil Zaki challenges that assumption. In part one of The Gray Area's new three-part series, “Reasons to be Cheerful,” Sean Illing asks Jamil Zaki about why cynicism is everywhere, especially if it makes no sense to be this way — and what we, as individuals, can do to challenge our own cynical tendencies. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Jamil Zaki (@zakijam) psychologist at Stanford University and author of Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox Member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing speaks with poet and historian Jennifer Michael Hecht, whose book The Wonder Paradox asks: If we don't have God or religion, what — if anything — do we lose? They discuss how religion accesses meaning — through things like prayer, ceremony, and ritual — and Jennifer speaks on the ways that poetry can play similar roles in a secular way. They also discuss some of the "tricks" that poets use, share favorite poems, and explore what it would mean to "live the questions" — and even learn to love them — without having the answers. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Jennifer Michael Hecht (@Freudeinstein), poet, historian; author References:  The Wonder Paradox: Embracing the Weirdness of Existence and the Poetry of Our Lives by Jennifer Michael Hecht (FSG; 2023) Doubt: A History by Jennifer Michael Hecht (HarperOne; 2004) Rainer Maria Rilke, from a 1903 letter to Franz Kappus, published in Letters to a Young Poet (pub. 1929) Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman (1855) "Why do parrots live so long?" by Charles Q. Choi (LiveScience; May 23, 2022) "The survival of poetry depends on the failure of language," from The Tree of Meaning: Language, Mind, and Ecology by Robert Bringhurst (Counterpoint; 2009) "Traveler, There Is No Road" ("Caminante, no hay camino") by Antonio Machado (1917) "A Free Man's Worship" by Bertrand Russell (1903) Totality and Infinity: An Essay on Exteriority by Emmanuel Levinas (1961)   Support The Gray Area by becoming a Vox member: https://www.vox.com/support-now Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How is the origin of our universe like an improvised saxophone solo? This week, Sean Illing talks to Stephon Alexander, a theoretical physicist and world-class jazz musician. Alexander is the author of The Jazz of Physics and his most recent book, Fear of a Black Universe. This episode features music by Stephon Alexander throughout, from his latest 2024 album Spontaneous Fruit and his 2017 EP True to Self. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Stephon Alexander (@stephstem), theoretical physicist, Brown University Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing talks with Glory Liu, the author of Adam Smith's America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism. Smith is most well-known for being the “father of capitalism,” but as Liu points out in her book, his legacy has been misappropriated — especially in America. They discuss his original intentions and what we can take away from his work today. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Glory Liu (@miss_glory), author; lecturer, Harvard University References: Adam Smith's America: How a Scottish Philosopher became an Icon of American Capitalism by Glory Liu (Princeton; 2022) Adam Smith: An Enlightened Life by Nicholas Phillipson (Yale; 2012) Free to Choose: A Personal Statement by Milton & Rose Friedman (Harcourt; 1980) “Adam Smith's ‘History of Astronomy' and view of science” by Kwangsu Kim (Cambridge Journal of Economics v. 36; 2012) Works by Adam Smith: The Wealth of Nations (1776) Theory of Moral Sentiments (1759) Lectures on Jurisprudence (1763) Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean Illing speaks with marriage and family therapist Vienna Pharaon, whose book 'The Origins of You' aims to help us identify and heal the wounds that originated from our family, which shape our patterns of behavior in relationships and throughout our lives. Sean and Vienna talk about how we can spot and name our "origin wounds," discuss practical wisdom to help break free from the ways these pains grip us, and Sean directly confronts some real issues from his upbringing and family life. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Vienna Pharaon (@mindfulmft), marriage & family therapist; author References:  The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love by Vienna Pharaon (G.P. Putnam's Sons; 2023) When the Body Says No: The Cost of Hidden Stress by Dr. Gabor Maté (Wiley; 2011)   Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Be the first to hear new episodes of The Gray Area by following us in your favorite podcast app. Links here: https://www.vox.com/the-gray-area Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices