Podcast appearances and mentions of chris vogler

In this episode we welcome Chris Vogler. Chris is a Hollywood development executive, screenwriter, author and educator. He is best known for working with Disney and for his screenwriting guide, The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure For Writers.Chris was inspired by the writings of Joseph Campbell, particularly The Hero with a Thousand Faces. He used Campbell's work to create a 7-page company memo for Hollywood screenwriters, A Practical Guide to The Hero with a Thousand Faces which he later developed into The Writer's Journey. He has since spun off his techniques into worldwide masterclasses.In the conversation, John Bucher of the Joseph Campbell Foundation speaks with Chris about his life, his work, the Hero's Journey, the art of storytelling, and Joseph Campbell.   For more information on the MythMaker Podcast Network and Joseph Campbell, visit JCF.org. To subscribe to our weekly MythBlasts go to jcf.org/subscribeThe Podcast With A Thousand Faces is hosted by Tyler Lapkin and is a production of the Joseph Campbell Foundation. It is produced by Tyler Lapkin. Executive producer, John Bucher. Audio mixing and editing by Charles Mallett.All music exclusively provided by APM Music (apmmusic.com)

In this week's episode (which is all about the Hero's Journey!) we have the honour of interviewing Christopher Vogler: screenwriter, development executive and author of "The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers". During the interview, we dive deep into each of the 12 steps of the Hero's Journey, discussing their relevance for audience and storytellers alike, as well as taking a closer look at how the Journey is depicted in the original Star Wars (1977). Host: Viggo Zingmark Lien Produced by: Story Academy

As promised, here are the steps to the Hero's Journey. 1. Ordinary World, 2. Call to Adventure, 3. Refusal of the Call, 4. Meeting the Mentor, 5. Crossing the first threshold. 6. Tests, allies, and enemies, 7. Approach to the inmost cave, 8. The ordeal, 9. The reward. 10. The road back, 11. The resurrection, 12. Return with the elixir. “Brigitte,” Installment One of Tales from Vlaydor, is available on ebook and audiobook. Follow the link to find them on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=brigitte+devin+davis&ref=nb_sb_noss_1 Become a patron today! Visit patreon.com/writinginthetinyhouse Get ahold of Krissy Barton with Little Syllables editing services. She does free sample edits to see if you and she would be the right fit. www.littlesyllables.com Instagram: @authordevindavis Twitter: @authordevind The following is an imperfect transcript of this episode. I complete transcript can be found on the show's webpage. [00:00:00] Last week we covered the three act structure, or at least we finished covering the three act structure of how to structure a novel of how to structure a story. Just the different pattern. Generally speaking on how to do that. And this week, we are going to delve into something far more specific as we cover the hero's journey today on writing in the tiny. [00:00:27] Hello. Hello. Hello. And welcome back to the show. Welcome to writing in the tiny house. I am your host Devin Davis, and I am the guy in a tiny house who is here to show you all of the ways that you can get that work of fiction out of your mind and into a word processor or whatever, despite how busy you may think that you are. [00:01:12] Up until this point, we have been speaking very generally this year about the three act structure of most stories. Just the introduction, the rising action and the conclusion and delving into what each of those parts is. As we've gone through this whole, this whole little lesson series, I guess. Today, we are going to go into the hero's journey, which is kind of a map on how to do that. [00:01:40] At adventure novel. It lays out all of the important steps and the important beats. So the important events, the important things that happen in the story that is typical of most adventure stories. And it's interesting to see how all of it plays into the bigger picture, the hero's journey. [00:02:03] Was first, I guess, distilled out of the studies of a person named Joseph Campbell who lived from 1904 to 1987. He was a big a student of mythology. And he found in all of these very classic, very, very old stories that each of them followed a pattern. And in his studies, he put together that pattern called the hero's journey and his version of it has. [00:02:31] Teen steps that fall into three acts. It's a lot, 17 steps is a lot. Later much later, a person named Christopher Vogler Vogel. I don't know how to say his last name, but he worked as a screenwriter for Disney and likely for other people or other companies, he developed a different, or at least a more modern model of the hero's journey that he published back in 2007. [00:03:00] I appreciate looking at this, but just because it is more modern. It applies even more perfectly to the more current works of fiction that we see coming out. And. It has 12 parts instead of 17. And so today on writing in the tiny house, we are going to cover those 12 parts. [00:03:20] So these 12 parts are unique to Christopher Vogler, Vogler. But they have a lot in common with the original person who came up with the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell. So this Chris Vogler the screenwriter he wrote a book about the hero's journey. [00:03:36] There's a full on book about it, and it covers each of these points in more detail than we're going to cover in a 15 minute episodes. Here on the podcast. And I need to give a full confession that I have not read this book. That doesn't mean that you don't have to, or that you shouldn't. There are a lot of references and a lot of really good material on how to structure and properly execute a work of fiction. [00:04:02] And diving into the hero's journey is not something that I have done. Also my works of fiction. Don't 100% reflect the hero's journey. And so I have chosen to focus on some other things, but we're covering it today on writing in the tiny house, just because. You will see as we go through these different points that these points are everywhere in fiction, especially if the story revolves around calling a hero. [00:04:34] From somewhere the anointing of a hero and having them leave their home to go on this adventure and then come back with a solution. There are a lot of stories that cover that there are a lot of stories that have that as the main premise and the overall, you know, arching theme of either the trilogy or just the book or the many books. [00:04:59] And so we're going to go over that and you will find. As we go through these points that a lot of them will apply to your work in progress as well. Even if you are not writing an adventure novel these things fall into place, and many of them don't necessarily have to go in this order, but you will find that these little collections of points. [00:05:25] Very much need to go into either act one or all of them into act two or all of them into act three, just because of the formula of this story the formula of this structure, this is all very general stuff. And the cool thing about general stuff is it can apply in many delicious ways to many different things. [00:05:48] Diving right in this entire thing is based in three acts. And I covered what those three acts are already. So let's see how they all just kind of intermingle and what the 12 parts of this structure of writing fiction called the hero's journey is actually all about. act one. Is called the departure. [00:06:14] This is where we see the ordinary world, or we see the world as it is. it can be the fact that this is an ordinary day to day world or with something like hunger games. We see the dystopia, we see the problem and how a problem has become. The ordinary world, we see Katniss and we see her going through the day-to-day things and we see that it's. [00:06:41] Not okay. It's not good, but that is her reality. That is her day today. a picture of the ordinary world is the first step. Next, there is a call to adventure or a call to do something, a call to change. So this can be. Harry receiving a letter from Hogwarts. This can be Frodo getting the ring of power. [00:07:07] It can be a vast, many different things. It can be a vision, it can be a dream. It can be simply the challenge of this is a problem and I want to fix it. So just the invitation to step up and make things different. The third thing is the refusal of the call. if you look at all of these stories, I've mentioned Harry Potter, I've mentioned the Lord of the rings. [00:07:33] I've mentioned hunger games. There comes a moment very early in the story in almost all of them where the hero of the story doesn't want to be the hero. And that can actually be a running theme throughout the story and throughout the book itself. But. There comes a time just in this structure where the hero refuses, the call, where for whatever reason they're not going to do it, it can be for pride. [00:07:59] It can be for self doubt. It can be because they feel there is someone more qualified. And then there is me. The mentor. So who are the most popular mentors in fiction? In fantasy, at least we have Gandalf and we have Dumbledore. However, there are other mentors, sometimes the characters can play the role of a mentor and another role. [00:08:26] And so if we look at the lion, the witch and the wardrobe by CS Lewis Mr. Toughness is in a way a mentor. He is the guy who first introduces the world of Narnia to the reader and to the main characters. Also as LAN is a mentor. And there is the white witch, the ice queen of Narnia because one of the children falls under her protection. As a way to groom him. There is an amount of tutoring or amount of mentoring of introducing him to the world of introducing him to things and conditioning him to, to be a specific thing. [00:09:12] So sometimes the mentor can come across as many different things, but generally the mentor is the person who. teaches the hero about the journey, teaches the hero about the world. If they are stepping out into a new world, teaches them about the magic and sometimes provides them gifts. [00:09:34] So if you have read the broken earth trilogy by NK Jemisin, which is one of my favorites in the whole wide world. The character alabaster is the main, character's mentor. And he does just that he teaches her magic and he teaches her how to find her own type of magic. It's an, it's an amazing thing. [00:09:54] The next step in act one is crossing the first threshold. So it is that decision to go out on your journey. It is. Stepping out of Hobbiton and going onto the road to go onto your adventure and to go off into this strange new world. So that is what wraps up. Act two, there are more points act two is called the initiation. [00:10:21] So the first thing is you get your tests, your allies, and your enemies on all of these adventure novels. I have read and I have read a lot of them. There are a lot of characters to be met along the way that do not come in. Act one, you meet them in a Tavern, you meet them at a store or on the road or something, or you get jumped by bandits and then these people come swinging in from the trees and save you and to become your ally. [00:10:54] Or your enemy or whatever. And these tests are all of these challenges that come along the way. That happens a lot in act two. That's kind of the big part of act two, which is a huge act anyway, but at the end of act two the point is number seven is to approach the inmost cave. [00:11:16] So if you think back on like the classic. Mythology and stuff. It seems like a final test was always in like this cave or at the top of a mountain, just that final place to go and to reach out and to get there. And there were a lot of problems along the way, but here we are, and it is the end boss of a video game. [00:11:41] And they're in the inmost cave. The main character faces an ordeal, which is often a crowning test or sometimes defeating the big end boss. So it can be defeating a bad guy. It can be defeating. A really big henchman of the bad guy as a way to prove worth. It can be a lot of different things like that. [00:12:11] And then they are given a reward. So either it is a magical item, maybe sometimes It is a way to defeat the scourge that has plagued the land, or it is, you know, the magical spell that can cure whatever illness has befallen your sister, different things like that. [00:12:32] And then enact three. It is the return. It is going back to their hometown. The first step is the road back or to the ultimate destination. This means that on the way back, sometimes they go to And even higher place or a more special place to learn and receive more counsel and this is called the resurrection. [00:12:58] So resurrection is point number 11 on this list of 12. So this is where in classic mythology, the hero is killed and then reborn and is presented as new and pure So it's a form of rebirth or a coming back to life or in the event of Harry Potter, he actually did die and then did come back to life. [00:13:23] That is the ultimate resurrection of that entire story. And then they go back to their city returning with the elixir. So the elixir is whatever key ingredient. That is required to get rid of the problem. So sometimes returning with the elixir is winning the prize money. Sometimes it's coming back with the spell or a way to eradicate whatever, you know, strange, magical diseases across the land or maybe it's just a potion to heal a loved one or whatever. There are a lot of different applications to that, but that in a nutshell is the hero's journey. And as you saw, it follows that three act structure. So I will include these 12 points in the show notes, and we will see you next time when we discuss some of the archetypes or some of the character types. [00:14:25] If you want to use more common language that also come into the hero's journey next time on writing in the tiny house. [00:14:33]  [00:14:33] And that is it for today. Just a reminder that "Brigitte,"Installment One of Tales from Vlaydor is available on Amazon as an ebook and on Audible and Apple Books as an audio book. And I provide advanced reader copies of these short stories as I release them to my patrons. So become a patron today by visiting patreon.com/writinginthetinyhouse to support both my writing and this podcast. And lastly, be sure to follow me on social media. My Instagram is @authordevindavis and my Twitter handle is@authordevind. Thank you so much for spending some time with me today and have fun writing. We will see you next time. 

Michael Jamin & Phil Hudson discuss the difference between TV specs and TV pilots, what Hollywood wants to see today, the primary job of a staff writer, and the big problem facing young writers.Show Noteshttps://michaeljamin.com/course - Michael Jamin's Online Screenwriting Coursehttps://michaeljamin.com/free - Free Screenwriting LessonMichael: (00:00)When I'm running a show, we're working it. Should we ne like no one has a stopwatch out. We're never thinking what, 15 minutes. This has to happen. Except like, it just doesn't work that way. It's such a bizarre in my mind. It's almost fascinating to hear you say that because it's was like, whoa, we don't do any of that. So like, it seems to me it's making it unnecessarily hard and like, it doesn't, it's not helpful. You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jen. All right, everyone. Welcome to the big show today. We're talking about specs versus pilots. What does that mean? I don't even know. I've got to think this through Phil.Phil: (00:39)Yeah. This is an interesting one. I, one time took a kid to a lunch in film school and I told them what I was working on. And I remember thinking he brought this up and he was just using this terminology. And I know like what a spec versus a pilot is. And I know what a spec versus a commission is, but he used them interchangeably. And so I think there might be some confusion about, about these, especially in the world of television. Yeah.Michael: (01:05)Because there's a lot of the words are kind of used interchangeably. It's an it's unnecessarily complicated. But basically when you're trying to get a show where you're trying to get staffed on a show, uh, you need a writing sample. And so your writing sample could be a piece, an original piece of work, like a pilot that you've written about. You've created it's all yours. Or you could spec an existing show. So you write a sample episode of the show, Barry or whatever, and jolly just so that's two different samples that you, you could show people in thisPhil: (01:34)Stands for speculation, meaning you're writing to on speculation that you could sell it or that it, that I think that's where it comes from the film world. Right. Writing it on spec versus, um, I've been hired to do.Michael: (01:45)Right. So you're right. In other words, don't right. No, one's paying you for it. But the odds ofPhil: (01:49)It's an assumption of risk, I think, is really what it comes down to. Right? Yeah. So writer's Guild says, if you sell a feature on spec, you get paid more because you took the risk of writing it on your own dime versus them hiring you to do a job. And now you're getting paid less because they're assuming the risk that's right. So I think that's where the terminology comes with. Go ahead.Michael: (02:09)But the odds of the truthfully, the odds of you selling your spec pilot are very, very low. It's really just a calling card. It's a, it's a sample of your work to get you a job on a show so that you could get so that you rise up the ranks and you earn the right at some point in the future to sell a show. So most people think, well, I got a show I'm going to sell it. It's like, it doesn't really work that way. Doesn't work that way for me, you know? And I've been doing it for 26 years. So it's not going to work that way for Joe average in the middle of Indiana. Right. So, right. Okay. So back in the day when I was coming up, there were four networks. So there wasn't a lot of choice. So everyone kind of knew the same shows.Michael: (02:46)The big hit shows everyone watched, or at least sample they knew a little bit about. So you would write a spec episode of like, say, say Seinfeld or cheers or friends, or on the drama side, you might write a spec. ER, everyone knew those shows. So whoever was reading your shows would know the tone of it. They don't the characters and you'd write your spec episode of that show and people would read it and they get, okay. Yeah. I've seen the show enough to know that this is a good sample or not. But today the market is, uh, you know, there's so much, there's so many shows out there and no, there are no giant hits anymore. And so there's not one show that everyone is watching really there's shows that like people are popular shows, like let's say like Barry, or let's say a Ted lasso.Michael: (03:26)People seem to watch those, but it's not like it gets the millions and millions of views that everyone else, all the other show is used to get. It's still like a tiny share. So the way the agents and, um, studio executives, what they recommend is not to write a spec episode of an existing show since, you know, no one really knows that language anymore. They want you to write a spec episode of your oven, or they want you to write in an episode or a pilot episode of, of something that came out of your own head and their original idea and original pilot, and use that as a writing sample to get you work. But there's a problem with that in my opinion. Okay. The problem is writing, uh, writing an episode of our characters that already exist. It requires it's actually a lot easier than creating a brand new show from whole cloth.Michael: (04:15)And it's a whole different skill set. And if you're trying to get on a, a staff of a TV show, you don't need to, you don't need that skill set. You don't need to be, know how to create characters and create a world. Like all you need to know is how to, can you, what can I mimic the world that already exists? So I feel that's an unfair burden that studio executives and agents or managers are kind of putting on new writers. Like you're saying, Hey, this is much harder, but this is what you need to do because the world has changed so much the world of TV, at least. And you know, like I said, as a showrunner, I don't really care if you can create these characters. I want to know if you can, uh, if you can run an episode for my characters from my world and also as a store owner, it's harder for me to read those scripts because now it's like, I can read an episode of friends and I know I'm dating myself.Michael: (05:02)I think friends, okay. Let's say two and a half men or the big bang theory or something a little more recent. I can, um, I know those characters and know how they talk. I know how they should sound. I'm familiar with them. Uh, and it's easier for me. It's a lot less work for me to read a script and determine whether you are doing a good job mimicking that tone, but for new, when you create your own world, it's like, okay, now I got to who are these characters again? I gotta flip back. I gotta remind myself who this character is. And I got to remind myself, wait, what's the tone of this show supposed to be? Is it supposed to be silly or is this supposed to be broad? Uh, until it's, it's more work on my end and it's a lot more work on the person who has to write it. Yeah,Phil: (05:39)Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. And so you're what you're saying is the job of a staff writer is to mimic the showrunners voice. And although the pilot can't show creativity, that doesn't showcase that skillset.Michael: (05:52)Yeah. We don't need to know. We don't need to know if you can rate it, create a show. That'll come years later when you create your own show. So it's a little, it's kind of a, it's a bummer. Um, but when you, so when you create one, so, okay. We have to accept the fact that you really don't have any choice here. Let's say you have to re create all these pilots. Now you are going to want to create many pilots in different tones because, and by tone, I mean, uh, is it broad or is it real? Is it grounded? Is it crazy? Is it wacky, you know, on the Simpsons, Homer went to the moon. Well, you know, on family guy, uh, you know, Peter gets murdered every episode or he takes chops, loaves his legs off, like, and then suddenly she has legs in the next scene, you know, or I'll shoot his daughter in the face. Like that's just off the board wacko. Crazy. That show was a really fun show. But the tone of that is just, is like almost, uh, it's almost fantastical, whereas a show, uh, like BoJack horseman, even though he's a talking horse, it's very, it's much more realistic. He's, you know, he deals with issues of psychology and, and real problems with people. So it's a much more grounded show, even though he's a talking horse.Phil: (06:59)Okay. And so in the past, if I was writing samples of shows, I would want to take that same note. And I would say, I want to be able to write a Berry, which is a completely different tone than say, um, big bang theory. Yeah, yeah.Michael: (07:13)Different than any other. And also, and those, for example, and buried, by the way, a single camera show and big bang was a multi-camera show. And if you don't know the difference, so a single camera show look kind of looks like a movie shot like a movie. Often they use two cameras at the same time they're shooting it, but it's called single camera. Whereas a multi-camera show sometimes called a four camera show worth. I'm going to make them confusing. Sometimes it's called a three or four camera show, but a multi-camera show is shot on a soundstage in front of a live in front of a studio audience. So you hear those laughters and it's, it's, it's very perceptive and shot. Like it's like a, it's like going to theater. So people, those characters never, you know, they never leave the theater, the exist only on that stage. Whereas a single camera show, like let's say big, uh, modern family. They would shoot that on location. They go to this location, that location and the writing style is a little different. They both, you both have to understand story, uh, like, uh, a great understanding of story for both, but the way they're written, um, there there's some various, uh, there's a slight difference. TherePhil: (08:13)There's some formatting differences too, right?Michael: (08:15)Yeah. And those multi-camera shows tend to be a joke heavier because you have a studio audience and there's that pressure to keep them laughing when you shoot it. And so those shows you record a multi-camera show, uh, in both single camera and multi-camera show you are, uh, I don't know, that's not really what we're suppose to be talking about, but, but I, I find myself fascinated by my own voice on a continue. Let's go. Um, and I'm on a single camera show. It takes about a week to shoot and a multi-camera show. It takes a week to shoot, but this, the production schedules are very different. A multi-camera show. You have a day where you rehearse, you put on a show on Friday night and in front of an audience. But on that, Monday is the first day of rehearsal and you rehearsed it day two.Michael: (08:59)You were here set on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and finally, you know, Friday, you put up on its feet, whereas a single camera show on Monday, you have a rehearsal. I got like a table read where the actress just read it. And then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, you're shooting the thing you are shooting it. So, and it's because it takes longer to shoot. So there's less rehearsal for those. So by nature of that, because you have so much more rehearsal for a multi-camera show, uh, the each line is really, is really crafted and it's make as funny as possible. You put it, there's a lot of pressure to make the jokes really pop. Whereas a multi-cam a single camera show. You don't really have that same pressure. Okay.Phil: (09:36)Um, multi-camera show you've done several of those in your, in your, in both. Yeah. So in that world, you, as the writer of that episode would be on set or on the stages while they're shooting, right. Just to rewrite somethingMichael: (09:48)For a multi-camera show, all the writers on set all the time, God, all the time, a single, single camera show because it takes so long to shoot it. Uh, there's usually only one writer on set and that might be the showrunner, or it might be someone in the showrunners proxy. You might be a proxy, which could be the person who wrote that episode. Or it could be, let's say a co-executive producer.Phil: (10:07)Got it. So, because I'm not doing specs anymore, you know, um, I'm assuming that the spec work is the real work that helps you prepare for the job of being a staff writer, because you are watching a show, you're internalizing the voices, the characters, and you're crafting stories that fit into that world and match that tone. Yeah. Likewise, um, I could do the same thing in the world of a pilot where, but that seems like a lot more work because I have to create the characters, the setting, the reason these people are together. And so it's almost like, it seems like easier and better practice to do the spec, even though people are asking for a pilot.Michael: (10:47)Yeah. Yeah. And if your spec by the, if it's a show that like all comedy writers know Barry, they we've all watched Barry. So I think that'd be okay. Show despair, even though it's not known by the billions of people in the outside world, I think they'd be perfectly fine to spec that same thing with maybe Ted lasso. It seems to people seem to really like, um, those are probably be good specs. Uh, and I, like I said, I would, I would prefer to read that. I, and then I'm just judging it. I'm terms of like, okay, does this person understand a story structure? Uh, how has their dialogue, is it, is it punchy? Does it flow? Does a sound like the dialogue in the existing show? I don't need to know the other stuff. The other factors that go into creating a TV show, it doesn't help me. I don't need that. Okay.Phil: (11:29)And so I write these specs, I write these spec pilots. I practice them as I think that begs the question, like how does one approach both of these situations. And so I just want to walk you through what I was taught in film school and my television writing class. And I want you to tell me if you think this seems like a good format. Okay. Sounds good. You've already found. All right. Let's send the ascended episode. I do think that there, there were some things lacking here. Um, because as I've worked with you, as I've sat in writers rooms as a writer's PA, as I've sat on set, as I've seen rewrites of episodes, I've noticed that there are things that we didn't address per se in our classes. Yeah. Let's dive in. What we were taught to do was basically watch multiple episodes of the TV show, which sounds like a good idea. And then we were basically instructed to take a stopwatch and the time every single scene and count the number of scenes, and basically just put them into a spreadsheet and say, this, this act before this commercial break, there were this many scenes and they took this long and added together. I can expect my act one for this show to be this long. Yeah.Michael: (12:36)Yeah. I would never, I would never approach, uh, when I was running, when I'm running a show, we're working. It should, we knew like no one has a stopwatch out. We're never thinking, well, at 15 minutes, this has to happen and stuff like, it just doesn't work that way. It's such a bizarre in my mind, a it's almost fascinating to hear you say that because it was like, whoa, we don't do any of that. So like, it seems to me it's making it unnecessarily hard and like, it doesn't, it's not helpful.Phil: (13:04)I think what I took from that is what's happening in these scenes more than what, how long are these scenes taking or what are the number of scenes? And it was really looking at, you know, who is leading this scene, who is leading these. And I think that the reason that was interesting to me is because you and I had already had some back and forth about what story structure should look like. Yeah. But in general, what I noticed when we got to the next step, you know, two steps down. So then we take it, we break our own story, we kind of fit it into this formula. And then we do a table read. And what I noticed is that most of the table reads scripts. You know, the scripts that we've table read in our class, they were a lot of people doing things about a lot of nothing happeningMichael: (13:44)Or the characters. I mean, yeah,Phil: (13:46)It was, it wasn't like, we're really pushing towards one big thing. It wasn't like we had any real focus or drive through these moments of action. And there were moments of conversation, but it was almost like every single scene was set up to be its own unique act. And they didn't really take me anywhere.Michael: (14:05)It sounds like you got bogged down in the minutia, but you missed the bigger picture. Yeah.Phil: (14:09)Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's because there was just a general lack of conversation about actual story structure rather than, you know, here's how many scenes you should have versus sequences you should have versusMichael: (14:21)Well, it's like when I could walk as a TV writer, even though I'm in comedy, I could walk into any writers room in Hollywood. If they let me, if there were writers who are not on zoom anymore because of the pandemic, but I could walk into any writer's room, drama, comedy, whatever, and jump right in and fit right in because we all speak the same language, which is story. And none of us are talking about holding stopwatches and, and, you know, we don't, we just didn't thought how we approach.Phil: (14:44)So I know the answer to this, but you know, just playing devil's advocate, which I know we just tore apart recently. Um, so obviously you're talking about Joseph Campbell's hero's journey and miss structure then, right?Michael: (14:55)Yeah. Yeah. And, and I've read that, you know, it's a seminal work. It's an, uh, it's an important, it's interesting to read, but if that Joseph Campbell and like, you know, I'm not denigrating it at all, but if it was, if it was helpful in terms of breaking a story, you'd think that would be that chart. That famous chart would be on every writer's room in Hollywood. We would just be referring to the chart all the time to how to tell a story. And we just don't. And to me, it's like, it's almost like reverse engineering, something where it's like, okay, I'm going to make a robot. That's take apart this robot. And then we'll, and now we know how to make a robot. It's like, no, no. You know how to take apart a robot. It doesn't mean you have to build a robot. You just took one apart. Right. And so that to me was what that hero's journey circle reminds me of.Michael: (15:40)Hi guys, Michael Jamin here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry. And I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop my head and blew up and blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, it just made me nuts, man. He's getting more unqualified to give my dog advice.Michael: (16:17)And by the way, her script is it's coming along quite nicely. And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers for a new one, I'm writing staffs. A lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They find it to get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and Tik TOK and Facebook at Michael Jamin writer. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find naked. Happy. Alright. Now back to my previous.Phil: (17:01)So, because I've been through your course and I've seen how stories are broken in an actual writer's room, there are definitely almost beats. There are things that need to exist to help carry the story along. But the, but that's just more of like what I would call 10 poles that would hold up the structure.Michael: (17:19)Yeah. Right. It's the foundation,Phil: (17:21)The foundation. And then you do your story fits into that to help kind of guide us along because there's like an internal expectation in ourselves as humans been telling stories for millennia, then that resonates with this. And I think that's where Joseph Campbell stuff kind of coordinates here, but, or correlates here. But in general, this is, these are things that weren't really addressed. Like, you know, back behind me, I've got like a wall of filmmaking and screenwriting books. I have Joseph Campbell's here with a thousand phases. I have Chris Vogler's the writer's journey writer's journey I got because it was a required text for our class. And yet we never read it in class. We never opened it. We never talked about that. I was in film school that was in film school in my specifically my TV writing class. So ultimately I think what it boils down to is this process that I w I learned, isn't actually the way you do things, and it's not helpful because we're missing, as you said, the foundational things. We're so focused on the, on the other stuff.Michael: (18:21)And it's interesting to study all that little stuff is, but it's just not how we do it on the, on a daily basis. So, you know, I, I, I don't know why it's they teach? You know, I get a little frustrated when I get on my soapbox, when we talk about film school. And I always say like, make sure you are, you're clear on who you're studying from, because you can study from a screenwriting from a professional teacher, but if they haven't done it for years and years and years, like they're just teaching you what they were learning, what they learned, what they were taught. You know, you're not like I didn't go to film school and I didn't study any of this. Most of what I learned, I learned on the job from other writers, professional writers before me. And so I just do it the way they taught me. And that's, that's how we do it in the world.Phil: (19:06)It's the apprenticeship model, right. Where you go and you learn through osmosis and through putting in the sweat equity.Michael: (19:14)Yeah. And that's kind of, that's how I teach in the course. I'm like, well, you know, I don't mess around with like theory. I go, okay, let's take an idea. Here's an idea. How do we stretch this? Is it a good enough idea that we'll fill, let's say 22 minutes of TV show, or if it's a drama obviously longer, is it a good there's enough meat on that bone to turn it into 22 minutes? And if so, how do you unfold? All the events that occurs in this, in the plot so that it feels like an engaging story so that people are engaged in one-on-one what happens next? And I just do that by the way I was taught. So the course, that's how I, I, I run the course. It's like, okay, we're going to, you're going to pretend you're in my writer's room. We're going to take an idea and we're going to turn it into an episode of TV and we're not going to talk theory. We're going to do it.Phil: (19:55)Yeah. So when you're reading these things, and when we've talked again on this podcast quite a bit about, you have to be good at your craft, sounds like that's the quintessential thing here is you need to be able to tell a story that follows the proper structure and then entertain me is secondary to that.Michael: (20:14)Yeah. And, and, you know, to be clear when, when I first my partner and I first landed on TV shows, like we didn't know how to do any of this. Like we wrote, we were able to write a story, a decent enough story from our gut. And it was good enough, but we didn't know, we certainly couldn't have done it on a consistent basis. Like week after week on it. You know, we couldn't have been like a showrunner or, and so, but as you work on a show and you rise up through the ranks and you start making more money, more is expected of you. And so sooner or later, you need to learn how to do that. This, this story breaking know how to tell a story, uh, because if you can't that you will, you will hit a glass ceiling and then you will eventually be out of work. Got it,Phil: (20:52)Got it. Do you have any recommendations on how to approach, you know, but you know, picking a show to follow or to spec or to follow in match the tone, orMichael: (21:05)I do, like, I remember years ago working with a hiring a young writer and a laced kind of, we weren't in the rehiring. He was kind of, we were told he's going to be on our show. And so, okay, great. The studio said that we're like, okay, got it. And I remember asking him, are you a drama or a, would you consider yourself a drama or a comedy writer? He goes, oh, I, I do both. And I remember in my mind thinking, okay, you do, neither because you know, if your comedy got you, you say your con, you just know your comedy. I think comedy writers can do drama, but drama writers, they can't do comedy. It's not like you can say, I can write funny, but it's like, you know, you can, and you can, it's not like something you, I don't know if I'm explaining it. Well, it's like, you have to have a good sense of humor to write comedy. You can't, it's not like any drama writer can write comedy, comedy, radio, current drama, because you're just leaving out the funny parts. You're just not making it funny. You're telling the story. It's just not a funny story, but it's all story.Phil: (21:59)Um, but it's not, uh, it doesn't, that's I think an important note. It's not, how can I be as funny as possible? It's the thing that makes those shows so amazing. Are they keep you laughing? And then in one moment you're crying, right? Like they, they hit you in the gut because it's so emotionally real that you relate to it.Michael: (22:16)Yeah. And, and that's actually why the, the hours on a sitcom tend to be a lot worse than an hours on a drama. Because in both Kansas cases, you're telling a story, story, a story, but in one you have to make it funny. And the funny part that, that adds an extra layer of difficulty, because not all ideas are funny as we know. SoPhil: (22:35)Pick your lane, pigeonholeMichael: (22:36)Yourself. I think so. I think it's important to pigeon yourself because that's what you're saying. That's how you're marketing yourself. If you say to your, to someone, I can do anything you want, all right. I don't really know what you want, but if you say I'm really great at writing broad wacky comedies, Ooh, that's what I need. That's what I need. Don't make me do the, if I'm going to hire, don't make me do the work of figuring out what you are. You tell me what you are. Tell me you're great at it. And then if it's what I need, I'll hire you.Phil: (23:02)Yeah. In the, in the marketing world, we would call this niching down or niching down if you want to be more appropriate, but niching down. And you know, we try to keep it clean. But the other time I've heard in the marketing world is the niches. The, like your, your niche is what separates you from everybody else. Yeah. It is. What makes you the specialized expert?Michael: (23:23)I think people are worried about, well, I don't want to limit my opportunities. I, cause I, I don't care what I write, whether it's drama or comedy or broader or grounded, but honestly you are helping yourself get hired by, by getting in that lane and becoming good at that lane. You are, it's going to be easier for you to get hired. Yeah. SoPhil: (23:40)It was like if one of my e-commerce clients came to me and said, I want to be the next Walmart online. I want to sell everything under the sun. I would say, okay, how many hundreds of millions of dollars do you have? You kind of be like, what versus someone says, Hey, you know, we're a specialty craftsmen and we make the super fine, um, rare wood cutting boards. Can you help me? I'm like, absolutely. I could sell that all day because there's an, there's a niche there, which means less competition, less. It's very people looking for very specific things, more likely to be able to be marketable there. And it's the, again, the old adage from businesses, if everyone's your customer. No, one's your customer. Yeah.Michael: (24:18)Right, right. This is another example from our life. So my wife has a, um, drives a mini Cooper and she could get that repaired at any, any mechanic could work on it, but there's a guy I don't know, 20 miles away and who all needs works on mini Coopers. And she wants, insists on driving to him because he's a specialist in mini Coopers. That's all he does. And he knows it inside it. Now, now that doesn't limit this guy, that that mechanic could work on any car, probably. I mean, if you work on BMWs, for sure, it's close enough to mini Cooper. They own mini Cooper. But by saying that's all he does, everyone, all the mini Cooper go owners flood to him. So he has, you know, a larger, the pie is smaller, but he has a larger share of it. So you should be a specialist too. This is what I'm really great at.Phil: (25:02)Yeah. I love that. So you pick your lane, you've pigeonholed yourself, you've picked your niche. And now you're finding what kinds of shows you've talked about Ted lasso, and you talked about Barry. It seems like you should be matching the type of, to me, it makes sense. I want to have something that shows the type of tone for the job I'm applying for. So that would, that would dictate to me that it's not just about having one great pilot. It's about having a pilot that matches the tone of a Berry or a Ted lasso or a multicam that's really popular. That kind of thing.Michael: (25:35)Yeah. Right. And, and so the rules, by the way, the rules that apply to someone who's new don't or my role is a little different. Like I like I, because I've been doing this so long, I can write a broad show. I can write a grounded show, a single camel account, an animated. I kind of can do it all. Uh, if you're just starting out and I would recommend figuring out what tone you think you're going to be great at and, and, and going down that lane. And then, and then if you like, then you want to branch out a little bit like, okay, I've written a spec for a broadsheet. Let me try writing a spec for a grounded show and you write one of those and make it as good as you can.Phil: (26:09)Um, you know, I started earlier by saying, it seems like riding that many pilots seems incredibly daunting because it's so much work. You have to create the world and characters. And this is, uh, you know, again, I apologize bringing it back to the business world, but I think it's a very valid point. You know, my mentor who taught me how to do e-commerce and digital marketing, he was talking specifically about how to sell things on Amazon, because Amazon lets third-party sellers sell things. In fact, most of the time you're buying things, they're probably from a third party seller and they have very strict regulations on who can sell what and what you need to have to sell things on there. And they do that to protect the customer. And whenever we would train and do consulting at businesses about how to list their products on Amazon, he would bring up this point.Phil: (26:53)A lot of people look at that and say, oh, well, it's so much work. I don't know if it's worth it. And he said, you should be praising Amazon because they have made such a it's made it so difficult that the riff Raff will stay out. Yeah. It's just gatekeeping. And it basically, what it's saying is if you're worthy enough to pass this threshold, then you're going to, you're going to succeed because we have what you want. And we're just, we're basically weeding out the lazy people and yeah. And it goes back to another thing you said, he said, ultimately, you went in business by doing more than your competitor will. And so when I hear w whenever I hear that seems difficult, or whenever I feel that I might go, oh man, that's daunting. And I don't want to do that. That's kind of my benchmark for that's something I absolutely need to do, because it sets me apart from everybody else.Michael: (27:40)Th there's a lot of free work that you have to do to get a job. You have to write all this writing spec scripts, that's free. No, one's paying you to do that. If the idea of doing free work turns you off, then writer's not the profession for you. You know? So, uh, but yeah, you have to do. And like, and like you're pointing out, like when something's hard or requires a lot of work, I was like, oh good. That'll weed out. All the people who are not serious about it, that that just cuts my competition down. Like immensely.Phil: (28:09)Yeah. It, I mean, and it, as we discussed already too, and I know other screenwriting podcasts I've talked about, it is almost easier to be in the NFL than it is to be a working writer. And so you have to approach it as a professional, not as a hobbyist, this is what you do, because this is who you are. And it's almost like it needs to become part of who you are, what your identity is.Michael: (28:30)Yeah. Yeah. How often do you write? Well, the answer is every day, all the time, all the time. And when I'm not writing, while I'm thinking about writing, I'm taking notes about what I want to work on next. And so like, if you're not sitting, like if you want to compete you or anybody's listening, once they compete with me, you're gonna have to step up your game because this is what I do. So if you're not willing to do what I did well, you're, you're coming after my job. So this is what I do. You want to come after my job? You better be working hard.Phil: (28:55)Yeah. Great, great stuff. I, again, thanks, Michael. For all of this good stuff. Do you have anything else that you think is valuable on the spec or by,Michael: (29:02)I think that's it. We got more pilot. We got more, um, episodes of our, of our, of our podcast, coming. I'll have something to say next time.Phil: (29:09)I'm looking forward to understanding Michael. Thanks everybody else. Make sure, you know, love, leave a review, send it, share this with somebody else who needs to hear this episode. Yeah.Michael: (29:18)So the next one by all means, and follow me on Instagram. I've got smart things as hand Instagram at @MichaelJaminWriter.Phil: (29:23)Yeah. Again, the members of your course have all said that that's where your gems are. That's where all the gyms have information. SoMichael: (29:30)Yeah. Yeah.Speaker 3: (29:33)[inaudible],Phil: (29:44)This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you want to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course and MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade and in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together during the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who's personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something no one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room. And that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at michaeljammin.com/course. For free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJamminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

We welcome legendary story analyst and best-selling author Chris Vogler. Chris wrote the game-changing book "The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers." I read this book over 25 years ago and it changed the way I look at story.

Today on the show we bring the legendary story analyst and best-selling author Chris Vogler. Chris wrote the game-changing book  The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers. I read this book over 25 years ago and it changed the way I look at "story." Chris studied the work and principles of the late master Joseph Campbell. His book The Hero with a Thousand Faces was the basis for Star Wars as well as almost every other Hollywood feature film in the past 60 years using what Campbell called the monomyth.Many filmmakers and screenwriters believe that the hero's journey or monomyth is out of date and doesn't work on today's savvy audience. Nothing could be farther than the truth. The hero's journey is the meat and potatoes that all storytellers need to understand. Elements from the monomyth is in every story ever written. As screenwriters, you need to study and understand the monomyth then use it as you wish in your story. Take a look below at some of the monomyth's character archetypes.Chris's ground-breaking book is celebrating its 25-year anniversary so someone is reading it. Enjoy my conversation with Chris Vogler.

Today on the show we bring the legendary story analyst and best-selling author Chris Vogler. Chris wrote the game-changing book  The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers. I read this book over 25 years ago and it changed the way I look at "story." Chris studied the work and principles of the late master Joseph Campbell. His book The Hero with a Thousand Faces was the basis for Star Wars as well as almost every other Hollywood feature film in the past 60 years using what Campbell called the monomyth.Many filmmakers and screenwriters believe that the hero's journey or monomyth is out of date and doesn't work on today's savvy audience. Nothing could be farther than the truth. The hero's journey is the meat and potatoes that all storytellers need to understand. Elements from the monomyth is in every story ever written. As screenwriters, you need to study and understand the monomyth then use it as you wish in your story. Take a look below at some of the monomyth's character archetypes.Chris's ground-breaking book is celebrating its 25-year anniversary so someone is reading it. Enjoy my conversation with Chris Vogler.

The second session of my interview with Chris Vogler, talking about the roots and connections of story, about Shamans, neurobiology, the writer's contract with the viewer or reader. Valuable thinking about story.

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler, Peanut, KevyKev and Matty G. Bobby Whitehead, Editor of the Outdoor Guide Magazine, is visiting the crew in-studio. Later, a Fishing Report.Outdoor Guide Magazine: https://outdoorguidemagazine.com/

Chris Vogler became famous for popularizing and making digestible Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey. It landed him a job consulting for Disney on the development of the movie The Lion King. --A 25th edition of best-selling book, The Writer's Journey just came out. It's an extraordinary book I believe every person should read. While it's focus is on story, it's ideas are incredibly valuable to anyone who is going through change

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler, Peanut, KevyKev and Matty G. In the first segment, Joe Hollingshad of The Devil's Backbone Outfitters joins the show. The Devil's Backbone: https://www.devilsbackboneoutfitters.com/

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler, Peanut, KevyKev and Matty G. The guys are in the bunker and discussing what's happening on today's show.

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler, Peanut and crew. In the first segment, Uncle Ray catches up with Linda Powell of Mossberg.Mossberg: https://www.mossberg.com/

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler, Peanut, KevyKev & Matty G. In the first segment, Vogler has news for you.

This is my 2nd chat with Chris Vogler, author of the classic book The Writer’s Journey. The 25th anniversary edition of his book discusses using esoterica such as the chakra system, the tarot, and more to get deeper into the truth of your characters, the world of your story, and your audience's emotions - and so do we. GREAT talk. Enjoy!   Chris Vogler blog: https://chrisvogler.wordpress.com The Writer’s Journey - 25th Anniversary Edition: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1615933158/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_pvKpEbSJ9K83https://www.amazon.com/dp/1615933158/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_pvKpEbSJ9K8 Chris Vogler on our previous podcast: http://ifiknewyoubetter.libsyn.com/christopher-vogler-on-the-writers-journey

Originally I’d planned to release my NEW follow-up interview with Chris Vogler today. But coronavirus gonna coronavirus, so like many others who could, I had to make a dramatic escape from China to avoid possibly being on lockdown for months on end. So today, fellow displaced Beijinger KEVIN GEIGER and I dig into what’s going on, what might come next, and what we are doing in the meantime. 

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler. Peanut, KevyKev and Matty G. In the first segment, Uncle Ray discusses home defense and protection with Linda Powell of Mossberg.Mossberg: https://www.mossberg.com/

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler, Peanut, KevyKev and Matty G. It's deer season!!! In the first segment, Uncle Ray continues one of our favorite traditions during the season. Later, Frank Wagner of Schwarz Studio Taxidermy joins the show.Schwarz Studio Taxidermy: http://www.schwarzstudiotaxidermy.com/

Pauly Shore shines as Crawl, the catalyst hero in this often overlooked feel good comedy called Son in Law that serves up a slice of Americana while also redeeming its characters during the Thanksgiving season.Catalysts are rare characters in movies. They're essentially main characters that are fully formed at the start of the movie. And then they don't go through a change at all, but they change everybody else around them. And he affects all the family members. Right. So also if you're talking about classical mythology, like the Joseph Campbell book and everything like that and Chris Vogler and all that, and like the heroes journey, essentially Pauly's character in this movie would be called the trickster. He would fall in line with that archetype. But again, it was a catalyst hero.We feel like it is more than just a run-of-the-mill over-angst-ed '90s comedy and more in the like of being a classic. Rent or watch Son In LawOr it could be one of our guilty pleasures.Here is the story:"Country girl Rebecca (Carla Gugino) has spent most of her life on a farm in South Dakota, and, when she goes away to college in Los Angeles, Rebecca immediately feels out of place in the daunting urban setting. She is befriended by a savvy party animal named Crawl (Pauly Shore), who convinces the ambivalent Rebecca to stay in the city. When Thanksgiving break rolls around, Rebecca, no longer an innocent farm girl, invites Crawl back to South Dakota, where he pretends to be her fiancé."Pauly's podcastPauly's interview with Joe Rogan as mentioned in this episodeOur previous Pauly Shore-related Encino Man discussionOur LinksLet somebody else read to you with a FREE trial to Audible.Support the show (https://www.paypal.me/bingewatcherspodcast)

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler, Peanut, KevyKev & Matty G. In the first segment, Uncle Ray and Vogler Vagler discuss fall hunting news, celebrate November birthdays and talk to Frank Wagner of Schwarz Studio Taxidermy. Schwarz Studio Taxidermy: http://www.schwarzstudiotaxidermy.com/

It's Eye on the Outdoors with Ray Eye, Chris Vogler, Peanut, KevyKev and Matty G. In an extended first segment, Uncle Ray and Vogler Vagler share news and notes. Later, a Fishing Report with Billy Smith.

We have all heard about Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey by this point but what is it really. Chris Vogler, the author of The Writer’s Journey: Mythic Structure For Writers and the man who brought the Hero's Journey into the film industry, breaks down the ordinary and special worlds of the hero's journey. Enjoy.These videos on screenplay structure are from his best selling online course: Story and Screenwriting Blueprint - The Hero's Two Journeys.In more than 4½ hours of lecture, discussion and Q&A, Michael Hauge, author of and Selling Your Story in 60 Seconds: The Guaranteed Way to Get Your Screenplay or Novel and Christopher Vogler, story analyst and author of The Writer’s Journey: Mythic Structure For Writers, unite to reveal the essential principles of plot structure, character arc, myth and transformation.

We have all heard about Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey by this point but what is it really. Chris Vogler, the author of The Writer’s Journey: Mythic Structure For Writers and the man who brought the Hero's Journey into the film industry, breaks down the ordinary and special worlds of the hero's journey. Enjoy.These videos on screenplay structure are from his best selling online course: Story and Screenwriting Blueprint - The Hero's Two Journeys.In more than 4½ hours of lecture, discussion and Q&A, Michael Hauge, author of and Selling Your Story in 60 Seconds: The Guaranteed Way to Get Your Screenplay or Novel and Christopher Vogler, story analyst and author of The Writer’s Journey: Mythic Structure For Writers, unite to reveal the essential principles of plot structure, character arc, myth and transformation.

If you have seen Star Wars then you know Joseph Campbell's work. If you ever have seen The Lion King then you have seen one of Campbell's best student's, Chris Vogler, work.Chris Vogler wrote the game-changing book  The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers. I read this book over 20 years ago and it changed the way I look at story. Chris studied the work and principles of the late master Joseph Campbell. His book The Hero with a Thousand Faces was the bases for Star Wars as well as almost every other Hollywood feature film in the past 60 years.What Chris Vogler did so well is that he translated Campbell's work and applied it to movies. The Writer's Journey explores the powerful relationship between mythology and storytelling in a clear, concise style that's made it required reading for movie executives, screenwriters, playwrights, scholars, and fans of pop culture all over the world. He has influenced the screenplays of movies from THE LION KING to FIGHT CLUB to BLACK SWAN to NOAH."I teach sometimes, and always say that Chris Vogler is the first book that everyone's got to read." -- Darren Aronofsky , Oscar-nominated Screenwriter/Director, Noah, Black Swan, The WrestlerPretty high praise from one of the best filmmakers working today. In this episode, I ask Chris to break down a bunch of concepts of the Hero's Journey, why it resonates with people around the world and what makes an amazing hero and villain.Enjoy my conversation with Chris Vogler.

If you have seen Star Wars then you know Joseph Campbell's work. If you ever have seen The Lion King then you have seen one of Campbell's best student's, Chris Vogler, work.Chris Vogler wrote the game-changing book  The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers. I read this book over 20 years ago and it changed the way I look at story. Chris studied the work and principles of the late master Joseph Campbell. His book The Hero with a Thousand Faces was the bases for Star Wars as well as almost every other Hollywood feature film in the past 60 years.What Chris Vogler did so well is that he translated Campbell's work and applied it to movies. The Writer's Journey explores the powerful relationship between mythology and storytelling in a clear, concise style that's made it required reading for movie executives, screenwriters, playwrights, scholars, and fans of pop culture all over the world. He has influenced the screenplays of movies from THE LION KING to FIGHT CLUB to BLACK SWAN to NOAH."I teach sometimes, and always say that Chris Vogler is the first book that everyone's got to read." -- Darren Aronofsky , Oscar-nominated Screenwriter/Director, Noah, Black Swan, The WrestlerPretty high praise from one of the best filmmakers working today. In this episode, I ask Chris to break down a bunch of concepts of the Hero's Journey, why it resonates with people around the world and what makes an amazing hero and villain.Enjoy my conversation with Chris Vogler.

Check out the new Deep Dish Radio Facebook Page. Tim's there and you can tell him how much you wish he'd shut up and let the guests talk.This episode: Brilliant and funny author Brad Schreiber and his new, revised book "What Are You Laughing At?"“People have forgotten how to be funny,” says Chris Vogler in his foreword to What Are You Laughing at? Luckily, experienced and award-winning humor writer Brad Schreiber is here to remind us all how it’s done. If laughter is the best medicine, be prepared to feel fit as a fiddle after perusing these pages. Brad’s clever wit and well-timed punch lines are sure to leave you grasping your sides, while his wise advice will ensure that you’re able to follow in his comedic footsteps.With more than seventy excerpts from such expert prose and screenwriters as Woody Allen, Steve Martin, and Kurt Vonnegut Jr., as well as unique writing exercises for all situations, this comprehensive tutorial will teach you how to write humor prose for any literary form, including screenwriting, story writing, theater, television, and audio/radio. Additionally, readers are given sage advice on different tactics for writing comedic fiction versus comedic nonfiction. Get the book wherever you get your books See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Understanding The Hero's Journey with Chris VoglerWe have all heard about Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey by this point but what is it really. Chris Vogler, the author of The Writer’s Journey: Mythic Structure For Writers and the man who brought the Hero's Journey into the film industry, breaks down the ordinary and special worlds of the hero's journey. Enjoy.These videos on screenplay structure are from his best selling online course: Story and Screenwriting Blueprint - The Hero's Two Journeys.In more than 4½ hours of lecture, discussion and Q&A, Michael Hauge, author of Writing Screenplays That Sell and Selling Your Story in 60 Seconds: The Guaranteed Way to Get Your Screenplay or Novel; and Christopher Vogler, story analyst and author of The Writer’s Journey: Mythic Structure For Writers, unite to reveal the essential principles of plot structure, character arc, myth and transformation.

Holy crap! Look what I figured out over the last four days. On this episode Russell talks about The Hero's Two Journeys and what they mean. He talks about why the second journey is actually more important than the first. Here are some of the really cool things you will hear in today's episode: What the difference is between the journey of accomplishment and the journey of transformation and why you can't have one without the other. How every movie and story has these two journeys, but you just don't realize it. And what Russell's own Hero's two journeys was like. So listen below to learn about the Hero's Two Journeys and how they relate to business. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone it is a beautiful snowy, snowy day. I love the snow, it's so much fun. I hope you guys are having a good time wherever you're at in the world. Some of you guys are probably super hot, on a beach hanging out, which is cool. For me, I'm here driving in the snow. It's about 12:30 in the afternoon, I'm going in late because I've been writing, trying to get the book done. So I've been spending a lot of time at home locked away. I'm trying to get things done without people around me, and then I have to go and share the ideas because it gets the energy of everyone in our office, gets me fired up and gets me motivated to keep writing and creating. But it's kind of fun, the last three days, I was supposed to have the book done last week. Last 3 almost 4 days now, I've been focusing on the one chapter and it's the epiphany bridge and if you listen to the podcast you hear me talk about the epiphany bridge and as I'm explaining it……it's tough because when you explain things live there's an easy way to do it. You guys have probably heard me explain the epiphany bridge on the podcast and I think most people probably got it. But as you're writing there's a lot of things you have to fill in because your audience may not have the context. When you guys are hanging out with me, we have context, we know…..there's understanding you have when I share something it's like, “Oh that's how it fits in the context of all the stuff Russell's been sharing with me.” But a book there's a vacuum where someone could be getting off a book shelf and have no idea who you are. There's more filling in between the lines you have to do. So the epiphany bridge, I could explain it easily, but to get the full impact that I need, I need more. I spent the first night, I can't remember if I told you or not, but I spent three hours studying the story just to get back into that state of how you actually tell a good story. What's the structure? And I think I mentioned there's a really good audio called the Hero's Two Journeys, by Michael Hauge and Chris Vogler teach the story. And Michael Hauge is like a consultant for script writer in Hollywood, and Chris Vogler does similar stuff for novelists. I kind of resonated a lot more with Michael Hauge, in fact Michael came and spoke at one of our events. Dayton Smith and I a couple of years ago taught this concept called the Hero's two journeys. And it's cool because I listened to the audio of it, and he spoke at our event. And he was, it was super awesome to see the story. You look at all movies and all books, they follow a very similar story structure, so that was fascinating back then, but I didn't really know how to apply it. I'm not doing Hollywood productions or Hollywood movies, so how to this apply to our world? That was probably 5 or 6 years ago that he spoke at our event. It's been kind of up in the air for me for a long time. This week as I've gone back through it, and I've been looking at it and listening to it through a different lens. I have a structure with my epiphany bridge story, is it the same as the hero's two journeys? Is it different? What things am I missing that I should be bringing over? And it turned into this 4 day geek out session on Story, which has been so much fun. But now that it's happening, I'm seeing this clear picture of……it's amazing. I'm going to give Mike Hauge credit for a lot of this stuff because I'm learning it again through him and I'm trying to tweak it in a way that fits into my lens that I view the world through.  But some cool things, and I'll share a couple of them and then I'll be out of…probably wont have time to go through all of them. The cool thing is first off, talk about every good story, there's three core components. There's a character, then the desire of the character, where he's ggoing, the physical desire ( I need to go over there) then there's the conflict. So if you have those three you have a story. You have a character, little red riding hood. She has a desire, I want to take my grandma a bag of goodies. Then the conflict, the big bad wolf wants to eat her along the way. And that's the story and if you have those three elements, you've got the story. The three core things. What's interesting is that typically as marketers, we look at the desire is where we try to create desire in people's minds. I want the big house or car or wherever this thing you want to get to is. I want to lose weight….we try to create desire in that. But what's interesting is in the story desire is not created by the desire, emotion is not created by the desire. The Desire, the emotion we want in a story, the emotion comes from the conflict. That's what people actually care about it. If there's no conflict people won't care about the story. If my story is that I woke up and drove to the office, there's no conflict there, nobody cares, it's boring. So the conflict is what creates emotion, which makes the story actually interesting. There's kind of that. We talk about characters, always the back story, and I've kind of pulled out, there's about 5 or 6 ways you can build rapport with it, and with a character. In a movie they try to do those things prior to……it's the first ten percent of the movie, so prior to the attractive character, or the character, or hero, whatever you want to call it, leaving on this journey. So you try to build rapport and usually it's happening in one spot. And about ten percent into the movie there's this thing  that happens that usually physically they leave the location that they're at and go somewhere else. Frodo leaves the shire and he goes on this journey. What happens is there's always this visible desire we have called the Journey of accomplishment, the hero's first journey, the journey of accomplishment. I need to accomplish this thing. I gotta take the ring to Mordor and throw it in this lava pit. Every story's got that. There's this journey. That's the journey we're all watching and we're visible and we're aware and going with this character on this journey trying to help them achieve. But then there's also this second journey, that's why he calls it the hero's two journeys. And the second journey is not visible to the naked eye. We don't see it. Frodo's got to become a man, we don't see that piece of it. All we see is the desire of where they're trying to get to. And then the conflict that's happening along the way. So that's what's fascinating, there's this second journey happening, and that second journey is the journey of transformation. The first journey is the journey of accomplishment, second journey is the journey of transformation, them becoming a different person. So if you look at the back story of the story, what's happening is that we're creating an identity that this character believes about themselves. It's all their old beliefs or all their current beliefs. They believe this and this and all these things that are important and have created their identity. And then they go on this journey of accomplishment and during the process they have this journey of transformation where this identity of who they think they are breaks away and these old beliefs fall off and then these new beliefs are born and it shifts from their identity to their essence. And essence is the key. That's where we want to get to, that essence of who we actually are and having the hero discover that during this journey. What's interesting is that in good stories the hero will accomplish the thing that they wanted to, that they went on this journey of accomplishment, they accomplish that thing. But then usually it doesn't matter. They throw it away or they don't care because the real journey was this journey of transformation, where the character became something more. So as I was, yesterday as I came to the office I started geeking out, so I mapped out on a whiteboard and showed the whole thing to a bunch of guys on my team. I was explaining it all to them and then everyone was kind of like, “Give me an example of this journey of transformation.” And I was thinking and all the sudden it popped in my head and I remember this story of Cars. So Cars is, we just watched it on the Disney Cruise with my kids like 25 times, so it's top of my brain right now. Lightning McQueen is this hero. There's this back story, we hear all this stuff, he almost wins the Piston cup, there's a three-way tie, so now they're gonna race. So now he's got to leave, he's physically leaving this spot. During the back story we understood his identity, what's important. He's a rookie, He's in line to win the piston cup, blah, blah. We also see his character flaws, we find out before he leaves on his journey that he doesn't have any friends, even Harv, his manager, he thinks is his friend isn't actually his friend, he doesn't even like him. He's getting in this car and we realize that he's actually…there's this pain that he has and he doesn't know who he is. He's going to win this thing and that's his identity. He has to win the Piston cup or else he's a failure in life. He's gonna be the first rookie ever, so he jumps into the……Harv, they start on this physical journey. Leaving the current location for somewhere else. The desire for him is to go to California to win the Piston cup. That's the visual goal we all see. Then what happens, Harv falls asleep, he falls out of the car, gets stuck in Radiator Spring and that introduces conflict. And all this conflict starts happening. And through this conflict he becomes a different person. Then what happens is the end of the story he gets the ability to go accomplish his desires. So he leaves Radiator Springs, he goes to the race, gets in the thing, doing this race and has this opportunity to win. He's out there racing the track and goes through and it comes down to the last minutes of the race. He's going through and passes everybody and he's in the front and he has become the victor, he's gonna win. His desires that he's been trying to accomplish this entire movie, the whole journey of accomplishment is now his, he owns it. And then all the sudden Chick Hicks hits the King's wheel and the king flips up, boom, boom, boom, car wrecks. Smashes everything and he looks up and as he's about to cross the finish line he looks up and sees in the monitor he sees the King destroyed. And he remembers the story about Doc and him being destroyed and all the sudden he realizes in that moment, he changes. And he realizes that this journey of accomplishment, things he's trying to accomplish, does not actually matter. And he throws it away, slams on his breaks and stops an inch in front of the finish line and he sits there and Chick Hicks flies past him and wins the race. And then what does he do? He backs up, goes back and finds the King, goes behind him and he starts pushing the King to the finish line. The King says something to him. He says, “What are you doing, Rookie? You realize you just threw away the Piston Cup?” and then this is where we had this glimpse of the transformation Lightning McQueen had. He said, “You know an old race car once told me, all it is, is an empty cup.” And he pushes the king through the finish line and the story…..the hero's second journey, that transformation, he accomplished it. He became somebody more. Something different, something better. Isn't that amazing. And it's like, that is the story line for movies. It's the hero's two journeys. And when you see it, it starts becoming so clear that all these, every movie there's this external journey, the external desire they are going for, but then there's this internal journey that happens and I want you to think about this for yourself. Because, we'll get more when you get the book, it'll explain how this fits into the epiphany bridge and all that stuff. But for a lot of us, that's our life. We all get into whatever we're doing because we have this thing. I got into wrestling because I wanted to be, at first a state champ, I wanted to be a national champ. Here's my journey of achievement. That was all I lived, thought about. That was the only thing that mattered. I went on this journey and hit my state champ, I became an All American and went to college and my last goal was to become an All American in college. My whole life, everything rode on this journey, I was going on this thing, and I didn't hit it. I fell short, I didn't even qualify for the national tournament my senior year, fell short. And it was over. And I didn't get my thing that I'd been trying to achieve. But then for me as a person, I stepped back and I looked and I said, “What happened in the last 12 years of me pursuing this dream?” what was the journey of transformation for me? Who did I become because of that? If I didn't go on this journey, even though I didn't hit my desire, even if I would have hit my desire, what was put in my path? Who did I meet? How did I change who I am? How did I become someone different, someone better because of that? If I hadn't gone on that journey where would I be today? It would have been a whole different trajectory. But the journey of transformation happened because I was chasing that desire. So let's get into business, want to make money, that's the desire but then what happens along the way? Holy cow, you feel, you realize and this is true for me, you realize that the things you create actually have an impact on people and it can change their life. And suddenly it shifts from I need to make money to how can I have an impact? A transformation, that's the switch. That's why there's so many people who go through weight loss, this desire to lose weight and in the process they've learned something about themselves. And they have so much passion about it and they want to share it with other people and that's why they become trainers and coaches and experts and all these crazy things. It's so fascinating. It's in movies, in life. All over the place, the hero's two journeys. It's excited. So that's what I got for you guys to you. I'm almost to the office. I have more that I want to share, but I'll have to save it for another podcast. Maybe I'll do it on the drive home tonight because I have the paper right here. The next thing I'm looking at is the conflict. How do you break down the actual conflict that's happening inside of this story. The hero's, after he's left home, he's going through this thing, what are the levels of the conflict. I actually have it sketched out right here; it'll be in the new book. I'm calling it the Five Turning Points of Conflict, and it's awesome. So maybe I'll share that tonight or whenever the next podcast comes out. Least that's the game plan. If not, then go read my book because it will be in there for sure. I hope that is exciting for you guys, gets you a little pumped up about story and thinking through that as you're telling your stories. Because the end of the day no one really cares if the hero achieves the accomplishment. The audience cares that the hero becomes something and gets the journey of achievement, or the journey of transformation. That's what we actually root for. That's how we fall in love with characters. Rocky part 1, Rocky didn't win. But who did he become? That's why we love Rocky. Alright, I'm at the office, guys. Appreciate you all, have an amazing day. I'll talk to you guys probably later on tonight. Alright, bye.

Holy crap! Look what I figured out over the last four days. On this episode Russell talks about The Hero’s Two Journeys and what they mean. He talks about why the second journey is actually more important than the first. Here are some of the really cool things you will hear in today’s episode: What the difference is between the journey of accomplishment and the journey of transformation and why you can’t have one without the other. How every movie and story has these two journeys, but you just don’t realize it. And what Russell’s own Hero’s two journeys was like. So listen below to learn about the Hero’s Two Journeys and how they relate to business. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone it is a beautiful snowy, snowy day. I love the snow, it’s so much fun. I hope you guys are having a good time wherever you’re at in the world. Some of you guys are probably super hot, on a beach hanging out, which is cool. For me, I’m here driving in the snow. It’s about 12:30 in the afternoon, I’m going in late because I’ve been writing, trying to get the book done. So I’ve been spending a lot of time at home locked away. I’m trying to get things done without people around me, and then I have to go and share the ideas because it gets the energy of everyone in our office, gets me fired up and gets me motivated to keep writing and creating. But it’s kind of fun, the last three days, I was supposed to have the book done last week. Last 3 almost 4 days now, I’ve been focusing on the one chapter and it’s the epiphany bridge and if you listen to the podcast you hear me talk about the epiphany bridge and as I’m explaining it……it’s tough because when you explain things live there’s an easy way to do it. You guys have probably heard me explain the epiphany bridge on the podcast and I think most people probably got it. But as you’re writing there’s a lot of things you have to fill in because your audience may not have the context. When you guys are hanging out with me, we have context, we know…..there’s understanding you have when I share something it’s like, “Oh that’s how it fits in the context of all the stuff Russell’s been sharing with me.” But a book there’s a vacuum where someone could be getting off a book shelf and have no idea who you are. There’s more filling in between the lines you have to do. So the epiphany bridge, I could explain it easily, but to get the full impact that I need, I need more. I spent the first night, I can’t remember if I told you or not, but I spent three hours studying the story just to get back into that state of how you actually tell a good story. What’s the structure? And I think I mentioned there’s a really good audio called the Hero’s Two Journeys, by Michael Hauge and Chris Vogler teach the story. And Michael Hauge is like a consultant for script writer in Hollywood, and Chris Vogler does similar stuff for novelists. I kind of resonated a lot more with Michael Hauge, in fact Michael came and spoke at one of our events. Dayton Smith and I a couple of years ago taught this concept called the Hero’s two journeys. And it’s cool because I listened to the audio of it, and he spoke at our event. And he was, it was super awesome to see the story. You look at all movies and all books, they follow a very similar story structure, so that was fascinating back then, but I didn’t really know how to apply it. I’m not doing Hollywood productions or Hollywood movies, so how to this apply to our world? That was probably 5 or 6 years ago that he spoke at our event. It’s been kind of up in the air for me for a long time. This week as I’ve gone back through it, and I’ve been looking at it and listening to it through a different lens. I have a structure with my epiphany bridge story, is it the same as the hero’s two journeys? Is it different? What things am I missing that I should be bringing over? And it turned into this 4 day geek out session on Story, which has been so much fun. But now that it’s happening, I’m seeing this clear picture of……it’s amazing. I’m going to give Mike Hauge credit for a lot of this stuff because I’m learning it again through him and I’m trying to tweak it in a way that fits into my lens that I view the world through.  But some cool things, and I’ll share a couple of them and then I’ll be out of…probably wont have time to go through all of them. The cool thing is first off, talk about every good story, there’s three core components. There’s a character, then the desire of the character, where he’s ggoing, the physical desire ( I need to go over there) then there’s the conflict. So if you have those three you have a story. You have a character, little red riding hood. She has a desire, I want to take my grandma a bag of goodies. Then the conflict, the big bad wolf wants to eat her along the way. And that’s the story and if you have those three elements, you’ve got the story. The three core things. What’s interesting is that typically as marketers, we look at the desire is where we try to create desire in people’s minds. I want the big house or car or wherever this thing you want to get to is. I want to lose weight….we try to create desire in that. But what’s interesting is in the story desire is not created by the desire, emotion is not created by the desire. The Desire, the emotion we want in a story, the emotion comes from the conflict. That’s what people actually care about it. If there’s no conflict people won’t care about the story. If my story is that I woke up and drove to the office, there’s no conflict there, nobody cares, it’s boring. So the conflict is what creates emotion, which makes the story actually interesting. There’s kind of that. We talk about characters, always the back story, and I’ve kind of pulled out, there’s about 5 or 6 ways you can build rapport with it, and with a character. In a movie they try to do those things prior to……it’s the first ten percent of the movie, so prior to the attractive character, or the character, or hero, whatever you want to call it, leaving on this journey. So you try to build rapport and usually it’s happening in one spot. And about ten percent into the movie there’s this thing  that happens that usually physically they leave the location that they’re at and go somewhere else. Frodo leaves the shire and he goes on this journey. What happens is there’s always this visible desire we have called the Journey of accomplishment, the hero’s first journey, the journey of accomplishment. I need to accomplish this thing. I gotta take the ring to Mordor and throw it in this lava pit. Every story’s got that. There’s this journey. That’s the journey we’re all watching and we’re visible and we’re aware and going with this character on this journey trying to help them achieve. But then there’s also this second journey, that’s why he calls it the hero’s two journeys. And the second journey is not visible to the naked eye. We don’t see it. Frodo’s got to become a man, we don’t see that piece of it. All we see is the desire of where they’re trying to get to. And then the conflict that’s happening along the way. So that’s what’s fascinating, there’s this second journey happening, and that second journey is the journey of transformation. The first journey is the journey of accomplishment, second journey is the journey of transformation, them becoming a different person. So if you look at the back story of the story, what’s happening is that we’re creating an identity that this character believes about themselves. It’s all their old beliefs or all their current beliefs. They believe this and this and all these things that are important and have created their identity. And then they go on this journey of accomplishment and during the process they have this journey of transformation where this identity of who they think they are breaks away and these old beliefs fall off and then these new beliefs are born and it shifts from their identity to their essence. And essence is the key. That’s where we want to get to, that essence of who we actually are and having the hero discover that during this journey. What’s interesting is that in good stories the hero will accomplish the thing that they wanted to, that they went on this journey of accomplishment, they accomplish that thing. But then usually it doesn’t matter. They throw it away or they don’t care because the real journey was this journey of transformation, where the character became something more. So as I was, yesterday as I came to the office I started geeking out, so I mapped out on a whiteboard and showed the whole thing to a bunch of guys on my team. I was explaining it all to them and then everyone was kind of like, “Give me an example of this journey of transformation.” And I was thinking and all the sudden it popped in my head and I remember this story of Cars. So Cars is, we just watched it on the Disney Cruise with my kids like 25 times, so it’s top of my brain right now. Lightning McQueen is this hero. There’s this back story, we hear all this stuff, he almost wins the Piston cup, there’s a three-way tie, so now they’re gonna race. So now he’s got to leave, he’s physically leaving this spot. During the back story we understood his identity, what’s important. He’s a rookie, He’s in line to win the piston cup, blah, blah. We also see his character flaws, we find out before he leaves on his journey that he doesn’t have any friends, even Harv, his manager, he thinks is his friend isn’t actually his friend, he doesn’t even like him. He’s getting in this car and we realize that he’s actually…there’s this pain that he has and he doesn’t know who he is. He’s going to win this thing and that’s his identity. He has to win the Piston cup or else he’s a failure in life. He’s gonna be the first rookie ever, so he jumps into the……Harv, they start on this physical journey. Leaving the current location for somewhere else. The desire for him is to go to California to win the Piston cup. That’s the visual goal we all see. Then what happens, Harv falls asleep, he falls out of the car, gets stuck in Radiator Spring and that introduces conflict. And all this conflict starts happening. And through this conflict he becomes a different person. Then what happens is the end of the story he gets the ability to go accomplish his desires. So he leaves Radiator Springs, he goes to the race, gets in the thing, doing this race and has this opportunity to win. He’s out there racing the track and goes through and it comes down to the last minutes of the race. He’s going through and passes everybody and he’s in the front and he has become the victor, he’s gonna win. His desires that he’s been trying to accomplish this entire movie, the whole journey of accomplishment is now his, he owns it. And then all the sudden Chick Hicks hits the King’s wheel and the king flips up, boom, boom, boom, car wrecks. Smashes everything and he looks up and as he’s about to cross the finish line he looks up and sees in the monitor he sees the King destroyed. And he remembers the story about Doc and him being destroyed and all the sudden he realizes in that moment, he changes. And he realizes that this journey of accomplishment, things he’s trying to accomplish, does not actually matter. And he throws it away, slams on his breaks and stops an inch in front of the finish line and he sits there and Chick Hicks flies past him and wins the race. And then what does he do? He backs up, goes back and finds the King, goes behind him and he starts pushing the King to the finish line. The King says something to him. He says, “What are you doing, Rookie? You realize you just threw away the Piston Cup?” and then this is where we had this glimpse of the transformation Lightning McQueen had. He said, “You know an old race car once told me, all it is, is an empty cup.” And he pushes the king through the finish line and the story…..the hero’s second journey, that transformation, he accomplished it. He became somebody more. Something different, something better. Isn’t that amazing. And it’s like, that is the story line for movies. It’s the hero’s two journeys. And when you see it, it starts becoming so clear that all these, every movie there’s this external journey, the external desire they are going for, but then there’s this internal journey that happens and I want you to think about this for yourself. Because, we’ll get more when you get the book, it’ll explain how this fits into the epiphany bridge and all that stuff. But for a lot of us, that’s our life. We all get into whatever we’re doing because we have this thing. I got into wrestling because I wanted to be, at first a state champ, I wanted to be a national champ. Here’s my journey of achievement. That was all I lived, thought about. That was the only thing that mattered. I went on this journey and hit my state champ, I became an All American and went to college and my last goal was to become an All American in college. My whole life, everything rode on this journey, I was going on this thing, and I didn’t hit it. I fell short, I didn’t even qualify for the national tournament my senior year, fell short. And it was over. And I didn’t get my thing that I’d been trying to achieve. But then for me as a person, I stepped back and I looked and I said, “What happened in the last 12 years of me pursuing this dream?” what was the journey of transformation for me? Who did I become because of that? If I didn’t go on this journey, even though I didn’t hit my desire, even if I would have hit my desire, what was put in my path? Who did I meet? How did I change who I am? How did I become someone different, someone better because of that? If I hadn’t gone on that journey where would I be today? It would have been a whole different trajectory. But the journey of transformation happened because I was chasing that desire. So let’s get into business, want to make money, that’s the desire but then what happens along the way? Holy cow, you feel, you realize and this is true for me, you realize that the things you create actually have an impact on people and it can change their life. And suddenly it shifts from I need to make money to how can I have an impact? A transformation, that’s the switch. That’s why there’s so many people who go through weight loss, this desire to lose weight and in the process they’ve learned something about themselves. And they have so much passion about it and they want to share it with other people and that’s why they become trainers and coaches and experts and all these crazy things. It’s so fascinating. It’s in movies, in life. All over the place, the hero’s two journeys. It’s excited. So that’s what I got for you guys to you. I’m almost to the office. I have more that I want to share, but I’ll have to save it for another podcast. Maybe I’ll do it on the drive home tonight because I have the paper right here. The next thing I’m looking at is the conflict. How do you break down the actual conflict that’s happening inside of this story. The hero’s, after he’s left home, he’s going through this thing, what are the levels of the conflict. I actually have it sketched out right here; it’ll be in the new book. I’m calling it the Five Turning Points of Conflict, and it’s awesome. So maybe I’ll share that tonight or whenever the next podcast comes out. Least that’s the game plan. If not, then go read my book because it will be in there for sure. I hope that is exciting for you guys, gets you a little pumped up about story and thinking through that as you’re telling your stories. Because the end of the day no one really cares if the hero achieves the accomplishment. The audience cares that the hero becomes something and gets the journey of achievement, or the journey of transformation. That’s what we actually root for. That’s how we fall in love with characters. Rocky part 1, Rocky didn’t win. But who did he become? That’s why we love Rocky. Alright, I’m at the office, guys. Appreciate you all, have an amazing day. I’ll talk to you guys probably later on tonight. Alright, bye.

If you have seen Star Wars then you know Joseph Campbell's work. If you ever have seen The Lion King then you have seen one of Campbell's best student's, Chris Vogler, work.Chris Vogler wrote the game changing book  The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers. I read this book over 20 years ago and it changed the way I look at story. Chris studied the work and principles of the late master Joseph Campbell. His book The Hero with a Thousand Faces was the bases for Star Wars as well as almost every other Hollywood feature film in the past 60 years. What Chris Vogler did so well is that he translated Campbell's work and applied it to movies. The Writer's Journey explores the powerful relationship between mythology and storytelling in a clear, concise style that's made it required reading for movie executives, screenwriters, playwrights, scholars, and fans of pop culture all over the world. He has influenced the screenplays of movies from THE LION KING to FIGHT CLUB to BLACK SWAN to NOAH."I teach sometimes, and always say that Chris Vogler is the first book that everyone's got to read." -- Darren Aronofsky , Oscar-nominated Screenwriter/Director, Noah, Black Swan, The WrestlePretty high praised from one of the best filmmakers working today. In this episode I ask Chris to breakdown a bunch of concepts of the Hero's Journey, why it resinates with people around the world and what makes an amazing hero and villain. Enjoy my conversation with Chris Vogler.Screenwriting & Story Blueprint: The Hero's Two JourneysThe Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers, 3rd EditionMyth & the Movies: Discovering the Myth Structure of 50 Unforgettable FilmsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell)Memo from the Story Department: Secrets of Structure and CharacterThe Million Dollar Screenplay

Kim Hudson is the author of “The Virgin’s Promise”, a groundbreaking new theory on archetypal screenplay structure endorsed by legendary screenwriting expert Chris Vogler. She is a graduate of Vancouver Film School and the International School of Analytical Psychology Zurich. She teaches extensively on the theory of the Virgin’s archetypal structure.