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In this episode, Clint Clifton talks with Daniel Im about church planters and the lessons they learn from the gig culture. Twitter: @danielsangiFacebook: @daniel.im.authorInstagram: @danielsangiWebsite: danielim.com Transcript[00:00:00] Albert Miller: This is the church planning podcast. Thank you for tuning in every week. We sit down with leaders who are shaping church planting efforts. Here's your host Josh Turansky and Clint Clifton.Josh Turansky: All right, welcome to the church planting podcast. My name is Josh Turansky, and I'm joined in Studio by Clint Clifton plant. Great to see you. All right, so we're going to jump right in to introing this episode. It's conversation that you had with Daniel Im. Yeah. Daniel has a background in working for Life Way.Clint Clifton: Yeah. Josh Turansky: And so let's talk about that first. You're familiar with Life Way. Our audience may not be, what is Life Way?[00:01:00] Clint Clifton: First of all Daniel Im and Daniel Yang, we mentioned this on the Daniel Yang interview that we just had but they're both Asians, they’re both from Canada, they both are in church planting and they get confused all the time. Josh Turansky: Where they met each other.Clint Clifton: They both worked with Ed Stetzer but they are there are two different individuals though and they have the same first name, but this is this is Daniel Im. He wrote the book No Silver Bullets and he's now leaving Life Way to go pastor a church that he was previously on staff in Canada and so we talked about that stuff in the interview but but yes Life Way is where Daniel has been working, he’s been leading NewChurches.com which is Life Way’s, you know church planting resource peace and Daniel is he's a brilliant guy just very bright and has been you know in Canada working in the hard soil. So he he definitely understands the church planting landscape and some of the hardest parts of North America and and it's a really sharp mind great thinker. [00:02:00] Life Way, though Life Way is the research resource arm of the Southern Baptist convention and it's not normally known because Life Way has had up until recently all these retail stores and so people know it as like the Christian bookstore, but it's actually a part of the Southern Baptist convention. It's an entity assistance subsidiary of the Southern Baptist convention. It's one of only two of the Southern Baptist convention subsidiaries that are profit producing. So it actually dumps into the Cooperative program every year so missionaries around the world and in the United States benefit from the sales of books and bibles and other resources to Christians around the country. Yeah, but it was originally started as the Baptist Sunday school board in the idea was the purpose was to produce curriculum and materials for for southern baptist churches.Josh Turansky: And they're still doing that.Clint Clifton: And they're still doing that. Yeah gospel project is maybe something you've heard of that is Life Way product. Many many others [00:03:00] but gospel project may be the most notable.Josh Turansky: Yeah. Another thing that comes up in this conversation is the gig economy. Yeah gig culture. This is huge for church Planters. Clint Clifton: Yeah, interesting. Just just some statistics for you 55 million Americans are freelancing right now in our country. It’s at an all-time high and people are. Are gigging a lot there. You and I were talking just a few minutes ago. There are a lot of ways to do that. Now that are just offered to us on a platter. I mean, you mentioned a few like Goose call them out againJosh Turansky: Uber and Lyft.Clint Clifton: Yeah. Yeah Uber. Yeah super and all the subsidiaries or I was noticing even that make office which is kind of like we work is owned by Uber and make office is really a place that helps, you know, gig culture thrive.It's like you don't have to have your own office. You can have another office with a bunch of other creatives or designers or or you know business folks Josh Turansky: I have a friend. Started a co-working space. Yeah and planted his church out of his [00:04:00] co-working space. It just graduated from the co-working space into a school because they outgrew it but that was his side gig and it well, I mean, it's his income.Clint Clifton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean so many, I remember just having my mind blowing when I was first in church planting by this guy who's simultaneously, this is in Stafford, Virginia so simultaneously started a mortgage company and a church at the same time and you would go into the office during the week and you'd have like mortgage brokers on one side of the the cubicle and a pastor on the other side of cubicle and they were all working in the same space when there's like 15 or 20 people in there some of them are on the phone and trying to sell you a mortgage and some of them are our counseling you because you just defaulted on yours. I mean it was like it was wild and I remember just having my mind blown like wow, this is a thing, you know, that's really working and actually initially the mortgage company did really good, but the church didn't and it grew really slowly and then as time went on [00:05:00] the church really got Traction in the mortgage company struggled in the crisis that happened at the end of the 2000s with the housing market. And so the it was just a beautiful like thing and but but the gig economy or good culture is happening all over the place. Interesting statistic, also the majority of freelancers, and this research is from the Freelancers Union, but the majority of Freelancers who left a full-time job made more money within the first year of their their full-time dedicated focus to their to their gig than they did in their previous job, so it's amazing just to think about that the freelancers are dumping a trillion dollars into the economy through their freelance earnings right now. So Josh Turansky: Incredible.Clint Clifton: Lots of stuff going on in that in that realm almost everybody I know, you know has something they have some kind of online thing. They do it's us-born books. It's you know, I mean, do you just I mean [00:06:00] I literally from you today I bought an item that your wife made and sells on Etsy. Yeah, and you just delivered it to me like and when you came here today, I hope this doesn't come out before my wife's birthday is not like she listens to the podcast anyway, you get the point. I mean everybody no matter where you are in the country everybody is experiencing this the gig culture is strong and what we talk about here is it has a profound effect on the church and on church planting in particular because as the our country gets more expensive. It becomes more and more difficult to to finance our ministry, especially in these very expensive very needed urban areas.Josh Turansky: Yeah, I'll just say really briefly. I've been able to do some side work and what that's allowed me to do is to be able to as a church planter pass money off to people around me. Yeah, and so it's allowed me to it's basically. I'm able to get workers in the church because I'm [00:07:00] able to employ themClint Clifton: Pay them through some other means. Josh Turansky: Yeah, that's great. I'm glad you covered this in the interview. Let's let's jump right into your conversation with Daniel Im.Josh Turansky: Hey church Planters. Your calling is to plant a church, but churches are also a business of Xillia partners with you to provide one time and ongoing Business Services enabling you to stay focused on Mission. Visit Auxilia Partners to learn more about the finances HR, and legal compliance services offered and schedule a free consultation. That's auxilio.partners and mention The Church Planting Podcast to receive a 20% discount.Clint Clifton: Well, Daniel. Thank you for joining me for this conversation today. Daniel Im: Yeah, I'm glad to be with you Clint. Clint Clifton: Well, Daniel, you're a really interesting guy to me. I watched you from afar. And can you describe kind of what you were doing at Life Way when you were with Life Way so that so [00:08:00] that we can kind of the listeners aren't familiar with you can kind of help understand. Daniel Im: Yeah, so for the last five years I was serving at Life Way basically started something called nutritious.com with Ed stetzer and we were trying to figure out how Life Way we'll could resource church planting multi-site and multiplication. That was the that was the Whiteboard dream and then after that it was okay, Daniel, what do you want to do, what can we do and for me, Jim Collins always talks about what in the world can you be the best at right and for Life Way being a resource provider is like well Life Way has a life research and a and you know, the only statistically verified and validated Church planter assessment yet Life Way's not planting churches Life Way's not assessing anyone. They have an assessment, but they're not assessing anyone. They're not funding anyone. So not wanting to go, in that way and neither wanting to go down the seminary route. I was just okay, how do we [00:09:00] create resources? So that's where I was like, well, you know, when you think about what Life Way can do. Life Way can be is one of the world's most premier resource providers and Life Way can publish and they can create resources and articles and courses and just and trying to do it broadly. So that's why when we start a newchurch.com, it wasn't Life Way new churches, it was new churches. Yeah and what ended up happening over the last five years was just the just just being able to broadly resource across denominational Network the active church planting resources around church planting multi set of multiplication. Clint Clifton: W hen you think about church planting what what's happening at least In Our Lifetime and right now and they have Angelica world is there's a lot of growth happening in church planting. So if you think about it like an. Please don't send me emailsI know it's not an industry. I know this is not business. But if you think about it, like an industry, it's a very growing industry. It's an industry that has a bunch of infrastructure scaffolding kind of being built all around it. Now. It's an Enterprise so to speak and there's there's everything from you know, funding mechanisms to to all sorts of written resources and online resources and and all these organizations that exist to supportChurch Planters specifically and and even now there are organizations that exist to support sending churches specifically and [00:17:00] so. All of that is coming online the last 10 or 15 years and some interesting things are happening. We're getting vernacular settled like everybody we have language and we know what it means and it's like industry language when other people here, they don't know what we're talking about and we know what we're talking aboutIt's so Insider language, but there's also so there's some areas that have like solidified. I feel like especially especially in the last five years or so. There's some areas of. Really settled like that's the industry standard. So to speak where five years ago. You couldn't have said there's an industry standard for assessment for our for example, so but now but I wonder you I can't see what you can see because you're working with a bunch of different groups and denominations at at Life WayWhat are those kind of gaps that aren't solidified yet or maybe still need to. Need to have Focus put on them. And so I just I just wonder what comes to your mind initially when we ask that question. Like what's [00:18:00] still in development anything come to mind? Daniel Im: Yeah. So let's let's maybe talk about the to size spectrums of church plants, rightSo we have the house church that has been going. I mean it's been going for a long time right long time. But if you look at kind of Our lifetime right you think. 90s 2000s Wolfgang Simpson, you look at that whole house Church Network movement that was going going going didn't really go to wear or have the I think broad impact that people hoped for and and Francis Chan right now what he's doing in San Francisco. Is that right? It's House Church that he's doing from apartment to apartment. So there's definitely that current that's continuing to go. And I know there are a lot of people were like, oh, what do you think about letters to the church? Right Francis is new book and and going along that way and I'm like man, I love the vision of the church that he's written about and I love what he's doing but it's still it's not there's no church planting movements in North America or in the [00:19:00] west. Right? Right. That's not yet. Fully proven. And yeah, so I hope it is I hope it does grow to that but they're so there's that undercurrent and then there's that other current that the complete all the other side where that is obsessed with and and really was a outgrowth of of the church growth movement Church Health movement breaking barriers. Just this whole idea of launch large, right and I feel like when you use the word industry, I feel like the industry quote-unquote around the launch large methodology is very mature and it's well-developed. That's true. And if you and there are several organizations that if you go with them that is what they do and they will help you, Fund you, I mean you're going to have to fund at least four or five hundred thousand dollars. If not more you're going to launch with over 200 people and the methodology is really well documented. There's a lot of dissertations on it as well on the larger your launch Team the larger your church is going to be several years later. So that's that's [00:20:00] really good too. The issue though is when you try to do that sort of methodology in a Metropolitan City in a big state like a New York right like a New York City. Unless you're Hillsong, right? It's going to be really hard to do a launch large 400 person. Event because you're not going to find a venue for 400 people on a Sunday morning unless you have a ton of money And then are you even a church plant? Right. So there's there's obviously that and then you look at where these organizations in these denominations networks are succeeding at launch large and where they're not succeeding. I think that's interesting to note. So in terms of a black hole what sort of church planting methodologies work in New England, right what sort of church planting methodologies work in Tacoma, Washington, right or up in Maine or or right there in Salt Lake City? [00:21:00] Or in Edmonton Alberta, right or in Vancouver Montreal. So I think that's a thing where a lot of people are trying to use these mature methodologies in larger cities like that. Yeah, and it's not necessarily proving as effective as if it were done in the South or in Texas or in larger is like that. Clint Clifton: Yeah, that's a great point. So, I mean I'm thinking of the the the person who had could test that idea that a methodology or a model so to speak would be. Better in you know, suburban area or a rural area that it would be in an urban area I mean I hear you say that I'm like, of course that's obvious. It's clear. He just observational it's clear, but I think you know. I think most of the proponents of a model there are some people out there in church planting that are that are really like Pro Mini models, but not most people most people are really attached to a and [00:22:00] an approach or a yeah, I mean most of them would sort of push back on the idea that their model wouldn't work in any context. So anyway, you could like substantiate that or house that substantiated in your mind. Daniel Im: Yeah, so. Part of it is you look at who are you? Okay. So let's kind of reverse engineer a large launch where a large launch would work very well with an unknown Pastor. Okay, so I'm not talking about celebrity Pastor who is famous already or other career? And does that thing right? That's that's a very that's an anomaly. So let's say you are a. Unknown I hate using that word. But I think we all understand what that means. Yeah, you're not a famous. You're not Instagram famous person and you plan to church because God has called you to plant a church and you are planting a church in a wealthy Suburban neighborhood, Yeah, okay versus you're planting a church [00:23:00] in a not yet gentrified. Urban area that is very low income and subsidized housing, right? Okay. Let's say in both situations. You can get 200 people. Let's let's just say let's just say you can get 200 people. I don't know how but let's just say you are able to gather 200 people who are going to come to your launch your one of your launch Services one of your preview Services. How in the world are you going to pay back and fund everything? In both scenarios in one if you're in a wealthy neighborhood. Yeah, that's one thing but in the other when the average income is $20,000 for household. Yeah, how do you expect to continue to run a full programmed three full-time staff Church. Yes, you're fully funded for the first three years. But how do you expect to continue to do that? Unless you're fully relying on outside funding, right? Right and a lot of the launch [00:24:00] large methodologies are completely reliant on a three-year fully funded large staff launch, which is really good. If you're in the right neighborhood and you're doing that but it's not necessarily sustainable because in the research that we did with new churches and Life Way research man, if you don't get to self-sustainability in the first three to four years, it's highly unlikely that you'll get there right based on the sampling of who we surveyed Right. Now here's the thing. That's interesting to observe or I think something that I'd love for people to just keep their fingerprint on and to to see if I mean and if you come up with examples, please reach out social media email whatever to let me know who is doing this well, but I have yet to meet a church or find a church who is knocking it out of the park simultaneously in church planting and in Mercy MinistriesLike I'm not just talking about churches that are doing both it's fine to do both a lot of churches are doing both but with the churches that are like men they are multiplying [00:27:00] like every year or every two to three years. Yeah, right. They are they're not just writing a check. They're sending people out there training Planters they're going out but they are also they have a thriving Ministry to the city Urban ministry as you know a city to the least of these and they're really measuringI don't I don't know. I mean, do you know Clint? Clint Clifton: No, I don't actually I mean it's I and it feels like the reason that doesn't exist right now. At least from my vantage point. And again, my perspective is smaller than yours because of who I who I primarily work with but the reason that's not true is because the the of Angelica world at least the tribe that I run in they they areSo suspect of this The Becoming social becoming a so social they lose the gospel. Yes, and so it's a very, you know, it's almost as if when you're in a room full of the folks, I usually run with it. In the angelical, you know world [00:28:00] and somebody gets up and starts talking about social stuff. It's almost like the air gets sucked out of the room and everybody becomes tense and like okay, this is going a directionI don't feel good about like this. This smells fishy, you know, and so there's there's not and I so I can't think of an example and I think if there was somebody that was crushing it on social front. Most of Angelica lz-- at least on my side of the aisle would be suspect of what they were doing on the gospel front or on the multiplication frontSo Daniel Im: yeah, it's interesting thing too that I want to keep on observing because. It's God. Jesus calls us to do both Clint Clifton: a tie every day and everybody agrees about that. Yeah, yeah, because that's what I mean up. It seems like an industry black hole in terms of like nobody has figured it out yet in a there's not like thisI mean you think about like if you think about like things of the past this makes sense like you think okay. Okay, the attraction will think okay. Alright that [00:29:00] we are mind goes to Willow Creek it goes to you know, like if we're thinking 90s era job growth so it goes. Saddleback like we have a thing to think of yeah and in and there's several things now that I look out and I go we all kind of feel it's right, but I don't have a big thingI can think of and go. Oh that's it. Even in even for in chance stuff, you know, I mean with the letters to the church. I think everybody like I can't think of a better book launch, you know, then he did with that though. Everybody was so spun up about that so fast, I felt like even people that have been like long time in the church planting world where all like man, this is amazingThis is great. But I was just you know from my. Finished when I was thinking like but show me the church, like where's the church that we all go to and go they're crushing it. And if you look under the I mean, hopefully it becomes the church that Francis is leading but. Yeah, I don't know. I mean we're all kind of waiting to see [00:30:00] you know, Daniel Im: yeah, you're rightYou're right. I think you know Clint I love what you've done at Pillar church. And I mean we Ed and I even wrote wrote about you and the work that you've done in planting missional churches. And I mean, I've talked about you and the work that you did at Pillar tons of times with others because I think that's just such a that's such an amazing picture of a kingdom mindsetFor you guys to reach the Marine Corps. All right, and for you to reach that them where they're at where you guys were at and you to discern what was happening as the Marines continue to come to your church, but you do then flip that out into a church planting strategy. So in terms of another black hole, I would say okayHey instead of everyone trying to reach everyone who is God called you to uniquely reach in your city. Clint Clifton: Yeah Daniel Im: yesterday. Yeah yesterday. I interviewed Knoll. Hey Cannon, so he's at Riverview and he's Acts 29 guy Lansing Michigan and and they do multi site and they do church planting and and meant how he put [00:31:00] it yesterday in the interview of so clearWell at the time of this recording right what he said was when it comes to multi-site they'll only do multi-site. When in Lansing when people can actually say hey, this is Lansing. I'm from Lansing and we're he can actually address and prophetically address Lansing right his area the moment. He goes beyond Lansing even within Michigan to like Ann Arbor or Grand Rapids or this that he can't address Lansing anymoreHe can't address because people in Grand Rapids will not say they're from Lansing. It was there from Lansing and he said the moment it goes beyond that. That's when they're planting. That's where they're planting. And I love that tension between that logo local that local and that broader approach toward multiplicationSo that's another one of those those black holes that I see. Yeah, Clint Clifton: And I actually think. Now we have the praetorian project is actually expanded to begin working with that army bases as well. And we're looking incredible. Clint Clifton: Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun. But looking for Navy and stuff like that, but I don't I think that it would not have gotten traction, especially in my experience level and kind of where I was at the time of getting it started had we had we broadened out just one more concentric Circle. I [00:34:00] think the fact that we were aiming at such a. A specialized group. Yeah helped us be better at what we were doing and it helped us communicate what we're doing in a more powerful wayYeah, and I don't know if it's a you thing or what but when I I remember having angst feeling like we're limiting ourselves by doing this, you know, and and actually now the older I get the more I feel like limited limits or so good limits helps Focus like they're just they're really what we need to really do something good. Daniel Im: Yeah percent. Yeah, Clint Clifton: okay. So talking specifically about the area of church planting that is what seems to be kind of growing to me is this like we talked about this a little bit earlier in a previous conversation today about like team church planting. Yeah instead of just. You know through the 90s and early 2000sIt was just kind of like the church. Everything was about the church planter and [00:35:00] even in the x29 kind of ramp up when x29 is really, you know, hot and heavy that it was all about. The planter SBC is definitely been all about the planter and it's kind of like it's kind of like if we have this thing then that's what we needSo it seems like. People are accepting the team thing a little bit more but there doesn't seem to be any literature produced for them or a way to talk about it. That's the common way like how we don't even know who to call that group of people right now, right the team all we know is to say the team.Daniel Im: yeahOkay, you know, what's interesting about this. I feel like we can talk about it for me a few different perspectives. You obviously can reverse-engineer larger churches that have teams. And that are doing team leadership and what that looks like and I think there's validity and there's a lot we can learn from thatThe only issue is that's not very helpful to a church plant that doesn't have the budget [00:36:00] to have a big team like that. So when you think about it from that perspective, you have these churches like Austin Stone like Village like Summit, you have a few of these Village and Summit both established churches that move toward more multiplication. They're very both teams structured Austin Stone that was planted Matt Carter but has but within their first couple of years actually moved very much toward a team model Riverview Church withNo, he can and he's been doing it a long time and has really neat model around team Ministry. He didn't plant the church, but he has been there for 28 years and leads it toward a team model. So there's a lot of these examples and larger churches that I've larger budgets and our Mega that are doing team [00:37:00] in terms of a church plant, rightI've friends out in La who co planted. Right, they were fully funded in ela well-funded because it’s LA, co-planted and recently one of them stepped off not because of anything. Their relationship or just because it wasn't working there other reasons. Yeah. So now there is a solo lead planter. Yeah Pastor that they're now going to hire someone else to now all that to say David Fitch is probably the one that I would encourage people to look up when it comes to Bible and when it comes to team model of ministry, he's at a Christian and Missionary Alliance Church. I believe it's in the somewhere. I think it's in Chicago. I forget specifically where he's at. But but what he's done is he's actually been a part of a team Ministry a team leadership Ministry that t hey are sustaining and they are doing it by vocationally, but the reason they've been so successful in terms of [00:38:00] internal metrics wise in terms of health and long-term ministry as because he has a lot of people that are all Bible occasional. Clint Clifton: Yeah, Daniel Im: right. So it's not just one person that's by vocational and their helpers but these are everyone all these people who are giving a lot of time and energy by vocationally into this workYeah. Yeah Hugh halter as well right in his book Bible Clint Clifton: right that that's the that's the kind of thing that I think we need like. 30 examples are 50 examples for to start to be like, okay. This is a thing that's really really happening out there because I actually know know what's happening. I can think of some examplesIt's not like definitely standardized yet, but it's the most hopeful thing in church planting to me. Because one of the things that's been really exceptional about our work at Pillar. That's unusual when I when I compare it to other church planning work. Is that regular everyday Christians are those marines that are [00:39:00] moving from Base to BaseThey inevitably get to be a part of those teams not because they signed up for it or because they're even that spiritually mature. But because they're a part of our church and they get orders to another one of our Church's I mean Uncle Sam tells them to go there so they can't really say no and then they go there and of course they're going to not look for a different church and the community what if they're going to go right to thatSo it's it has our work has inevitably involved the everyday Christian who's just involved in the in the church, but if you don't have a mechanism built into the life of your Movement Like That. It's Gotta Be You No, More defined. And so anyway, I'm just I'm just excited about that area because I feel like it is bubbling under the surface and I think when we get to the place where we have a bunch of examples and everybody validates it as a real thingThen I think we're going to have groups of friends getting together and saying let's go start a church. I mean, yeah, they just to Seminary buddies or something like that. Daniel Im: Yeah [00:40:00] and the unique thing about what what the praetorian project and what you've done it pillar is you didn't I mean the money questionYeah. The money question was solved. Clint Clifton: Yeah. Because Daniel Im: yeah, so that when it comes to team Ministry if we want to see well-trained, right and several friends who are well-trained theologically grounded have experience. They're not just 21 year olds who don't want to go to Seminary and they don't want to serve in an established routeSo there go plan to truly, you know, when you have well qualified trained individuals who are saying hey, let's go together. And let's go plant a church as a team. The thing that we need to solve is K 5 10 years ago. Did you get an education that was employable outside of the church? Yes, rightAnd I think if that is solved if that is salt and I think in the next 5-10 years anyone who's receiving a call to Ministry, they understand that okay. [00:41:00] Okay, is this degree? The one that's going to help flow or do I need to get another one first if that is solved I think we're going to see more of that the other thing though Clint so I have a book coming outMy next book is coming out in February and it's called you are what you do and six other lies about work life and love now. The reason I'm bringing this up is the seven lies that I talk about in the book our bait have basically written it risen to the surface because of the gig economy. Because of the the prevalence of the side hustle, so if you think about America, right just for example how like Amazon Prime just think of America and Amazon Prime like who doesn't have Amazon Prime, you know, it's just like it's really hard to youJust assume. Everyone has Amazon Prime and the reason is because half of America has Amazon Prime and the other half is probably using their moms. Clint Clifton: Somebody Amazon, right? Daniel Im: Yeah. Yeah, but half of America has Amazon Prime. So now think about that if half of America, right [00:42:00] 50% of America has this and we think everyone has it the gig economy people having a side hustle doing multiple jobsThat's almost at forty percent of America. Clint Clifton: Yeah. Daniel Im: Right. So if that's the case and if that's how normal it's become right, I mean I just I basically talked about these seven lies that have risen to the surface because of that but prevalent, you know relevant to our conversation is I actually thinkThat because of the rising side hustle in the gig economy. We are probably closer to a team model of planting than we might realize. Clint Clifton: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I didn't know all that about the gig economy that you just said, I mean, but I definitely have seen the rise of a sudden decide household for sure and even in you know in my church and in the church Landing world, even in the military, I mean we’re Marines you who you think of it as more full-time than a marine, right? Yeah, I mean, but but these [00:43:00] guys are side hustling as well. You know, I mean, it's just normal, it's normal. It's totally normal and it does it does play a lot into especially especially in the age bracket that a lot of the guys in our church render in that lightAge bracket where there may be good enough at their side hustle that they're making substantial money on it, but they're not so good that it matches what they're making in their other job and their real job. So they're on the fence of like they're maxed out first of all their back style, but they're on the fence of should I should I just take the plunge and do this full time and they're scared to deathTo do that, you know because of all kinds of reasons. So Daniel Im: yeah and honestly Clint this is I would love to see this right and maybe some of your listeners are going to maybe God is already stirring in their hearts to do team model of ministry, right and and maybe this will spark something but I would honestly whether you have you know, a trade ticket or an employable skill or not, or maybe you just have a seminary degree or a bible college degree, right and you are moving forward and [00:44:00] you feel cold to plant if you got if you and three or four other friends, let's sayAll of you are theologically trained and feel called to plant right if you and three other friends, let's say for just to make a good good number four of you want to go plan to church right and you can find someone who can fund one full-time position. Then what I'd encourage you all to do is every one of you Uber 20 hours a weekHmm Uber 20 hours a week and each of you take 25% of that a hundred percent salary. Yeah and go and do it. Clint Clifton: Yeah. Yeah, you're totally right and their churches it's funny because at NAMM specifically there are churches try and dams on The Cutting Edge of church planting. Oh, yeah if there is a Cutting Edge in Turf Landing, right so names names has advanced as anybody but when we've got guys coming to our assessment saying describing what you just described. Okay. Hey, this is how we're planting our church and Nom Noms like you like Springs pop out of our ears. We don't know how to [00:45:00] compute that like, what do what do we do with that? We don't know where's this guy fit and it's like we have these very we built these systems around the singular Church planter and for years, they've been talking about specifically an assessment and they've been talking aboutOkay. Can we assess teams or can we assess pass? All pairs or pastoral partners and then ultimately like philosophically were I guess yes. Yes we can but then practically speaking the system isn't built for it. So it's all clumpy and it doesn't work right, you know, so so yeah, man what you're saying is so so true and if there's anything that I feel like is the way things areIt is I mean it start you see little glimmers of it even in the large church. It's like the teaching teams becoming the prevalent and so the congregations are becoming more accustomed to a rotating teaching team. I think the you know, every time a pastor Falls to a moral failure and a church collapses or some kind of [00:46:00] other failure integers collapsesEverybody goes woo, we better not have one guy in charge. Yes. That's that's bad. You know, and so all that stuff is contributing to the what I hope is God at work to make Church Plant a little church planting a normal part of the Christian Life and yeah and and are in our nation's. Daniel Im: Yeah. That's that that idea of a Permenter Church planter or Superman Pastor. I mean, that's just that's all hubris. Right, that's all just getting to your head and it's and part of it is the American obsession with celebrities. Yeah that as seeped into the church. Which Eugene Peterson anything he writes. I mean, the guy is antithetic, you know, he is so anti thatYeah, and because it's like well, what does it look like to be present? What is it look like to not be disembodied but embodied where you're at, so. Yeah, I'm really encouraged by how that's going. I mean even just practically speaking my years in Nashville. I was a teaching pastor at my churchThere's no [00:47:00] senior pastor at our church. Yeah, we had campus pastors who led locally their staff. We had a few of us who were teaching pastors who would teach at both campuses, but there was no single point of leadership now having been in it and having had worked in it for about four years. It's greatIt's really really great the downside is it slow? Yeah, right. So I worked with the elders for a year to develop the set of core values for our church a year. Write a took a year for most other churches. It would have taken two three four months out of Max. Clint Clifton: Yeah, right. Yeah, I think yeah, I think you're you're like really onto something the more the harder the higher you put the authority like as the pyramid goes up and comes to a peak the higher you put the authority the more unstable over it is, you know, it's so so when you push that Authority down its kind of balanced out or leveled out over a group of people is that the churches are more likely to be [00:48:00] like kind of rooted but they're also not very agile. And yeah, it's interesting. I planted pillar and we have very much a team approachWe've always shared the pulpit with a bunch of bunch of different guys, even from the very beginning of the church. We have a big eldership and. And deep bench of leaders basically always doing leadership result. And that's a really good. It's created a really healthy culture at the church, you know one leader doing some stupid or screwing up is not going to not going to really significantly mess it up, but on the other hand, I went about five years ago and started working with McLain BobAnd those guys are so agile if for such a big church, it's amazing because all the decision making is is in one room essentially like I mean you they can get they can get together in the afternoon and decide they're going to do something simple minute tomorrow morning. Yeah, and to me that sounds scary and like because I've been in this environment where you know, I get indigestion sometimes and have an idea and I want to implement itSo I just I don't trust my own [00:49:00] decision making on stop until it's like borne out with other leaders in our church. But yeah, anyway, we got off track a little bit but I think I think the point is that that's an area that's in development and I see I feel like it's growing a lot and developing a lot.Daniel Im: Yeah. No, I'm excited about what's going to come.Clint Clifton: Yeah, me too. Well Daniel, it's been really kind of you spent so much time with us. I know you're I know you're ramping up for big things in your life right now. So just thank you so much for for hanging out with me for a little bit today. Daniel Im: Yeah, it's honestly, I love I love you the work you're doing the kingdom work you're doing so I'm just grateful to be able to have this time to chatClint Clifton: Well, thank you, Daniel. All right blessings on your new Endeavor man. Daniel Im: Awesome. Thanks. Josh Turansky: Thank you for listening to The Church Planning Podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review of your favorite podcast. Josh Turansky: Today’s episode of the church planting podcast is sponsored by new city Network the [00:50:00] church planting Ministry of MacLean Bible a special thanks to today's guests Daniel M for taking time to join usJosh Turansky produced the show Zukey Bastien was our showrunner and her husband Nick was our editor. Thanks to Hudson Turansky and Marvin more Who provided administrative and web support for the program and last but not least. Thank you for listening all the way through to the very end of the church planting podcast.Hey, if you'd like more information about the show, feel free to visit our brand new website www.churchplantingpodcast.org, there you can find all of our past episodes as well as notes. The links from today's show. Be sure to tune in to next week's podcast. We will be talking with Kevin Smith who's the president of the BCMD.

Transcript follows!   Stand “The Kingdom that Shall Stand Forever” Daniel 2:1-49   Key verse: “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever” (Daniel 2:44).     1.     Desperation before God a.     The reasons for desperation b.     The responses to desperation 2.     Deliverance by God a.     He is powerful b.     He is present c.     He is praiseworthy 3.     Dominion of God a.     His reign is perpetual b.     His reign is personal   Would everyone please draw a deep breath, just do like this. All right I see that all of you have breath.  Let everything that has breath, praise the Lord. I'd tell wasn’t that wonderful, what the choir and orchestra did. It was tremendous.  The song said, "Let all the works of his hand be applauded" and we applaud the Lord. He gives gifts to people and I'm so glad they share their gifts with us. It’s a dream come true for me to serve in the church were people are so gifted musically and they let those gifts be used for the glory of God!  Thank you choir and orchestra and all were involved in the service thus far, it’s been tremendous.    Would you take your Bible, please, and open to the book of Daniel. We are in a study through the book of Daniel. Really what were doing is, were really studying chapters one through six. This series, is in a lot of ways, was designed to help our students as they go back into the school system, especially the college and university system. We want to help them dare to be a Daniel and so that was a lot of the idea that went behind us scheduling this series at this time. Today we come to chapter two. Daniel chapter two. You said before, nothing lasts forever. There’s a lot of truth in that statement. For example, I want you to think with me of sports dynasties. Nothing lasts forever. Dynasties rise and they fall. Back in the 60's, the dominant team in the NBA was the Boston Celtics. Some of you are old enough to remember the Celtics in those days. They won eleven NBA championships in 13 years. That team have on it, great players like Bill Russell and Bob Cousy, John Havelechek.  In fact they won eight straight NBA championships during the 60's.  And so someone may have thought, "well, the Celtics, they'll just forever, be the dominant team in the NBA but, that’s not so is it. Along came the 80's, well the late 70's and 80's and it was ShowTime. These were the Los Angeles Lakers. This was kind of when I was coming up as a teenager and young man in college, that era. That team was made up of Magic Johnson, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and great players like that. Kurt Rambis with the glasses, if you remember him and they were coached by Pat Riley. They were dominant in their day, in fact they went eight finals during that span of time and they won five NBA championships. Perhaps people thought the Lakers! The Lakers will always be on top but it isn’t so because dynasties rise and they fall.  It was the Celtics in the 60's, the Lakers in the 80's, then came the 90's and who was the dominant team during the 1990's? The Chicago Bulls!  They had on it, the greatest of all time, pound for pound, inch for inch, Michael Jordan and his sidekick Scottie Pippen. And that crazy man, Dennis Rodman. If you remember Dennis Rodman. crazy! the Bulls won six NBA championships. I can still picture in my mind, Michael Jordan, gesturing six championships!  had he not had this crazy idea to try to go play professional baseball, they probably would have one more championships and so the Bulls were the dominant team.   Somebody may have said, well the Bulls, theyll always be the dynasty. but, it isn't so is it. sports dynasties rise and fal,l but it's not just true in sports. it's true in business. businesses rise and businesses fall. monopolies and dynasties in the economic realm, rise and fall. in fact there was a study done of all the Fortune 500 companies, in the year 1955. how many of them still existed in 2014?   You know that 89%, thats nearly 90% of those Fortune 500 companies are no longer in the list because businesses rise and fall.  In fact, let me just mention a litany of companies. Blockbuster. Blockbuster was all the rage and there was a blockbuster on every corner and every strip shopping mall. but today, blockbusters s ,I believe, is bankrupt. they've gone through bankruptcy, because though they made the transition from VHS, the VCR's, to DVD, they didn't keep up and Netflix came in and Netflix would just send you a movie right over the Internet to your home or  you could go down to the local store in for a dollar you could read out of the red box, I think it's called. and Blockbuster is no more. sears. how many used to go shopping at Sears? I remember as a little boy going into a multi-storied Sears building in Memphis, Tennessee. it was a big trip for us. we would travel from our little  home town of Forrest City.  we would drive over to Memphis, get some burgers at Krystal and  go up into the tower at Sears in Memphis. we thought was big stuff. But who goes to Sears nowadays? Walmart. Amazon.com. in fact,  what store do you go to at all? you just order it over Amazon and it is dropped right on your front doorstep. Sears has not been able to keep up.  In fact, poor Sears they have paired up with Kmart. many forecasters say they'll not survive next year. what happens? businesss come and go just as sports dynasties do.  Kodak, Kodak was the dominant photography company for 100 years. and somebody said well Kodak will always dominate the photography business.  but you know what? they were so tied to film, that when digiital photography came out, they were left in the dustbin.  They couldn’t compete.   And their fortunes rose and fell.    Well, what's true in sports and what's true in business is also true in the political sphere. empires rise and empires fall. Theres a long litany of kings and would-be dictators that have arisen and fallen.  Ramses, Alexander, Caesar Augustus, Charlemagne, Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mussolini, Mau Se Tong, Stalin, ISIS. All of them rising, one day, to fall.  But I come here to tell you something. There is a kingdom that will never fall. There is a dynasty rising that will never be diminished. And it is the kingdom of our Lord and Christ, Jesus himself. And of that kingdom, Daniel speaks. Would you stand your feet and honor of God's word and we'll see what God's word says about this kingdom? Now, I’m going to have mercy on you.   I’m not going to read all 49 versus all right. Going to read the first twelve and this will be our Launchpad for the rest of the story. Give your best attention to what happens in verses 1 to 12, because this will set the stage. Daniel chapter 2 beginning in verse one God's word says,   In the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his spirit was troubled, and his sleep left him.  Then the king commanded that the magicians, the enchanters, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans be summoned to tell the king his dreams. So they came in and stood before the king. And the king said to them, “I had a dream, and my spirit is troubled to know the dream.” Then the Chaldeans said to the king in Aramaic,“O king, live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will show the interpretation.” The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, “The word from me is firm: if you do not make known to me the dream and its interpretation, you shall be torn limb from limb, and your houses shall be laid in ruins.  But if you show the dream and its interpretation, you shall receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. Therefore show me the dream and its interpretation.”  They answered a second time and said, “Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will show its interpretation.” The king answered and said, “I know with certainty that you are trying to gain time, because you see that the word from me is firm—if you do not make the dream known to me, there is but one sentence for you. You have agreed to speak lying and corrupt words before me till the times change. Therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that you can show me its interpretation.” The Chaldeans answered the king and said, “There is not a man on earth who can meet the king's demand, for no great and powerful king has asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or Chaldean.  The thing that the king asks is difficult, and no one can show it to the king except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.” Because of this the king was angry and very furious, and commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be destroyed.   Lets pray.  Lord we have breath this morning and because we do, we praise you Lord.  We see around us the ruins of dynasties and kingdoms and businesses that are risen only to fall.  God we believe your word that says there is a kingdom rising there is a dynasty rising that will never fall. it is the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, the Lord Jesus. We thank you for your kingdom. We thank you for the King. I pray this morning he will be lifted high and all of us would make sure that we are among his subjects and have pledged allegiance to the Lamb. We ask it in his name. Amen.  Please be seated.   Our story this morning begins with desperation. There is absolute desperation before God.  You know why don't you? Let me give you the reasons for desperation that the magicians, the enchanters and Daniel himself must've felt. The reason port was because the king is being unreasonable. They’re in a predicament to be sure. The king said I had a dream. It must have been a terrible dream. It must be a frightening dream and the King wants to know the meaning of it. And so, he orders that they tell him his dream. They say well that’s fine King, will tell you the dream as long as you tell us. We will tell you the meaning of your dream as long as you tell us what you dreamed.  And the king says Oh No.  In effect he says I've been suspicious about you boys all along.  If I tell you the dream you could just concoct some explanation of it and I have no means of knowing whether your purported interpretation is true or false. I’m going to put out before you a fleece, in effect, and I ordered this, you tell me, without me disclosing it to you, what I dream. And if you can tell me what I drink first then I'll believe the interpretation that you purport to give. Well the people realize, these magicians, these wise men, they realized that their goose is cooked because they are powerless for this predicament. They have no means with in themselves to come up with it. And they protest. They say only the gods know what transpires in the night and in the dark. Only they can tell the dream that you have. So there are reasons for them being desperate. But the more important thing is, what is their response to this desperation? And maybe you've come here today and there's some desperation in your life. Maybe you're facing some crisis of some sort. Perhaps it's a relational crisis sorts, or it’s a financial crisis, or it's an emotional crisis. The important thing is not the reasons for your desperation. The important thing is your response in your desperation. How will you respond? And I love the way Daniel responded in this desperate moment. He responded, first of all, by being very prudent. The Bible says in verse 14 when the executioner came to Daniel, this is verse 14, Daniel replied with prudence and discretion to Arioch.  Daniel gave a soft answer. The Bible says in Proverbs 15:1 a soft answer turns away wrath.   I heard a story about a Red Sox baseball player. His name was Wade Boggs.  A lot of you will remember Wade Boggs. I believe he was the third baseman for the Red Sox. And of course you know the archrivals to the Red Sox are the Yankees. Every time the Red Sox would go to play in Yankee Stadium, there would be this heckler over on the third-base line and he would incessantly criticize and belittle Wade Boggs. He was always on his case. And he would say "man you stink." "Man your no good." and he just be giving him a hard time. Later Boggs had finally had enough. And so when the man started criticizing Boggs just walked over to him and he said,  "Are you the man that's always running me down, you the man that it is always criticizing me?" and the Yankee fan said that's right, its me." what you can do about? Wade Boggs pulled out a brand-new baseball and he autographed it and tossed it up to the man.    And it is said that from that time on, that man became the biggest Yankee fan of Boston Red Sox player Wade Boggs.  Why, because he given a soft answer to wrath.    Daniel is faced with his potential execution. The executioner has come. He said you’ve got to tell me what this dream means or you going to be killed. And Daniel answers, the Bible says with prudence. And I want to recommend this to all of us, whenever somebody gets up in your grill, someone is on your case; you ought to be like Daniel and respond with prudence and discretion. What else could you do? It wasn't just that he was prudent, he was prayerful. I love this. It’s not going to appear on the screen. But listen to what says in verses 17 and 18 or you can look at it in your Bible verses 17 and 18. “Then Daniel went into his house and made the matter known to his three friends, his companions, and he told them to seek mercy from the God of Heaven concerning this mystery. What did Daniel do? How did he respond to his desperate situation? Daniel prayed. It was prudent and he was prayerful. And if we will be those two things, you'll be surprised how God delivers us from the crises of our lives. He prayed.   I heard a story about these three preachers that were sitting together and they were talking about prayer. What was the best posture for preying? And it happened that there was a telephone line repairman who was working and he was within earshot.  So the first preacher said, I find, that the best way to pray is to stretch my hands toward heaven and the and look up the sky, that's the best posture for prayer. Well the second preacher said, Oh no, the best posture for prayer is to get on your knees. There the Lord will hear your prayer. The third preacher said, well I don't think lifting your hand your hands to heaven and are getting down on your knees. He said the best posture for prayer is just to get flat on your face, be prone before the Lord. The old telephone line repairman had had enough, he piped up and said he fellas, the best posture I ever had in prayer was when I was hanging upside down from the telephone pole. I tell you when you're hanging upside down and your situation is desperate, you are going to pray.    Too many of us, we wait until our situation is desperate before we pray.  Prayer is not the last resort, prayer is the first resort and Daniel knows this. They come and say Daniel you got to tell us this dream or you're going to be executed. He is prudent and he is prayerful. Are you taking to the Lord, the burdens and crises of your life for his hand to move? Well Daniel was wise enough to do so. So now we move from desperation before God to deliverance by God. When we respond rightly, we’re going to find the Lord ready to act on our behalf and the Lord ready to deliver. Look at verse 19 and you’ll see if they’re on the screen. The Bible says. “Then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision of the night. Then Daniel blessed the God of Heaven.” What happened, God delivered him. The situation was desperate but our God is greater and he delivered. He delivered Daniel. Now here I see three things. First of all, our God is powerful. I actually agree with all the enchanters of Babylon in one sense. In verse 11 they had said, “no one can give the dream except the gods.” you know what, they were right. It had to be someone who was powerful enough, someone to whom the darkness is light.  Someone to whom what is shrouded, is revealed, and our God, is just that kind of God, he is powerful. He is able. Listen to what Psalm 139 says, “ oh Lord, your searched me, and know me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up. You discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my paths and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, you, oh Lord, know it all together.” and I could continue the reading, many of you know it well. You can't go where God is not. You can't know something that God doesn't already know.  Daniel turns in his desperation to this powerful God and God reveals to Daniel would only the gods can do. Only the one true God. He is powerful. You know what else I see here? He is present. Again verse 11, the Chaldeans say, “no one can reveal this except the gods and their dwelling is not among men.” they were right on the one hand but wrong on the other. Only God could reveal the dream, but they were wrong when they said, “his dwelling is not among men, his dwelling is among men. He is Emanuel, God come to dwell among us. And God was with Daniel. God was with Shadrack, Meshach, and Abednego. When they went into that fiery furnace, God was there. And when   Daniel needed him, God was there, and when you need God, he will be there. He is powerful. He is present, therefore he is praiseworthy. And I love what Daniel does here. Daniel receives this vision .God reveals to him the dream. What does Daniel do? Look at the latter half of this verse. What does it say? Then, this the latter half of the verse, then Daniel blessed the God of Heaven. Daniel, not only asked for God to intervene, but when God did, Daniel remembered to say thank you.  He praised him. Gordon read that passage earlier, so I won't repeat it now, but I do want to reiterate for us all, the importance, not only of bringing our petitions to God, but once he is gracious to us. Giving him our praise in response. I too often prone to forget when good things happen to me. I may ask for them, but then I don't remember to say thank you. In fact, just this week, one of our church members was so gracious, and called the office, and he said that some jambalaya. I've got 15 lunches and, I’m going to bring them by the office and so it was on Thursday of this week that dear brother brought those lunches by to feed all the staff. We all gobble them up and enjoyed them very much Well a day or two went by and it was Saturday and I was preparing for this message and I was reminded that I ought to give thanks and so I texted the brother and said brother thank you for that lunch. That was delicious. And how many of us, we’re feasting on the good gifts God gives us but we don't remember to say thank you.   While I'm at it, let me just say this, this church is so good to Nell and Me.  You are so good to us and I know a lot of you have done things for me and I never even said thank you to you.  I’ve not written you a thank you note and maybe I haven’t responded and right now can I just blanket say, thank you God for Istrouma, thank you dear friends for your gifts and your support and your kindness.  I really do appreciate it, I really do. I really do.  We ought to remember to be a people who are grateful; Daniel was that kind of man.  He praised the Lord for God's good gift. And not only did he give thanks, he gave tribute. Because when Daniel stood before the king, the king said, “can you give me the interpretation, can you tell me my dream, and can you tell me what it meant.” Daniel said, “no sir,’ he said, “I cannot do it, but there is a God in heaven, and he has shown me what you think.  Daniel didn't take credit. Credit was not due to Daniel. He was wise enough not to co-opt God's glory. He gave God thanks and he gave God tribute.  He gave God the glory for the good thing that it been done.  Well now I come to the end. I want to say something about the dominion of God.  You see our desperation, if we respond to it rightly will lead to God's deliverance and in his deliverance we see his sovereign dominion overall. Now here I will refer to verse 44. Daniel is giving the interpretation of the dream and he says, looks to the screen you'll see the verse, “and in the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end and it shall stand forever.” there's the title of today's sermon. “The kingdom that shall stand forever.” sports dynasties rise and fall. Businesses rise and fall. Earthly kingdoms rise and fall, but there is a kingdom that will never fall. In fact, this King, his reign is first of all, perpetual. In perpetuity. For all time. Eternally, Jesus will reign. Daniel knew this from the dream that Nebuchadnezzar had had and the interpretation God him. Now listen to the dream. It’s given to us in verses 31 through 35. You saw o king and behold a great image. This image, mighty and have exceeding brightness, stood before you and its appearance was frightening.  I want you as I read this to try to envision in your minds eye this statue, that was erected there. Verse 32 “the head of this image was of fine gold. Its chest and arms were of silver. It’s middle and thighs of bronze. Its legs of iron. Its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. As you looked, a stone,” now note this careful, “a stone was cut out by no human hand and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold altogether were broken in pieces and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found but the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. What a vision Daniel had. Daniel had a vision of kingdoms. A succession of kingdoms.  Why? Because kingdoms rise and fall. The first of those kings was the head of gold and God told him, is Nebuchadnezzar. That is the Persian Empire. It was known for it’s its stores of gold. But with time, Babylon fell. In its place rose up a kingdom of silver. That was pictured in the arms and the chest of this image. That was the Medo-Persian Empire. it lasted some 200 years and just as Babylon was famous for its gold, Medo Persia was famous for its hoards of silver. But with time Medo-Persia fell. There was a man in Macedonia, Philip who rose up and his son after him Alexander and Alexander conquered the whole earth. His army dressed in bronze from helmet to toe and their shields and swords even of bronze and the mighty Grecian army swept the known earth. But that Kingdom to though it rose to the pinnacle of human achievement it fell. And behind it came that army of iron. The great Roman legions and they took the place of that Grecian Empire. But just like those before it, it to would fall. How would it fall? Listen to me. There was a stone cut out by no human hand. Who is this stone that came and struck the image and all the kingdoms of the world fall before this stone.  I tell you he is the stone that was rejected of men, but is the cornerstone of the Church. He is the Lord Jesus. Cut by no human and the virgin birth is there prophesied, Jesus is the King of Kings and he will rein in perpetuity forever he the perpetual king. Now friends, as true is that is, and as important as it is, there's something even more important for you, that is, his reign must be personal. He’s going to reign. Doesn’t the Bible say every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord? One day, everybody is going to bow the knee to Jesus. Every Buddhist, every Muslim, every Hindu, every Christian, we are all going to bow the knee.  What makes the difference is, did you do it now, willingly, of your own volition, in repentance and faith? Or will you that day, by force? This great king, Nebuchadnezzar, when given the dream and its interpretation, he did what we all ought to do. Look at it. Now I'm in verse 47. The last verse pictured here. “The king answered and said to Daniel truly your God is God. He is the God of gods and Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries for you have been able to reveal this mystery. . Nebuchadnezzar that greatest of all despots, bowed his knee before the King of kings and Lord of Lords. So must every one of us. There’s a mountain in New Hampshire. I believe there the Green Mountains is the name of them and in one of those great mountains, there was a protrusion. There was a piece of rock that jutted out from the face of the cliff. You see a picture of it here on the screen. This is an iconic image from New Hampshire.  You know what they call this? The old man in the mountain. Boys and girls can you look up there and can you see his nose and his brow and his chin there.  The old man in the mountain.  And from time immoral, the old man in the mountain was there. I don’t know what you call people that live in New Hampshire, New Hampshireites, I guess. They love the old man in the mountain. In fact I believe he's on their state stamp and seal and a million other souvenirs from New Hampshire. But one cold night in 2003, the old man in the mountain, gave way. There were fissures that had formed by the ice thawing and the freezing of it over so many centuries and in the night, that great visage broke off and slid down the mountain to the valley below.  And the old man in the mountain is no more. It broke their hearts. A man in the mountain. A man in the mountain who came down. This was a tragedy. I'm speaking to you today of a triumph. There is another man in the mountain. He is a stone cut by no human hand. He is the cornerstone. He is the Lord Jesus and he came down. No one can do these things except the gods and they do not make their dwelling among men. Oh yes they do. He made his dwelling among us and we beheld his glory. The glory as of the only begotten of the father. Full of grace and truth. Jesus is the stone upon which all hope is built. In fact I’m reminded, of this great old hymn.  “My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus's name. On Christ the solid rock I stand, all of the ground all other ground is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand. Kingdoms rise and fall. Sports dynasties rise and fall.  Businesses rise and fall. But there is a dynasty rising. There is a kingdom rising and will fill the whole earth.  You need to make sure that you are a subject to that King. Lets pray. God, we praise you for your word. What a great God you are. You see in the darkness. You know our thoughts before we think them. You know a word before it’s on our lips and you reveal what is mystery. You tell us what is to come. It is certain. It is sure. We thank you that your kingdom is rising. And that we can be a part of it. By your grace, your mercy, we can be a part of it.  We praise you, in Jesus mighty name, Amen.          

Would everyone please draw a deep breath, just do like this. All right I see that all of you have breath.  Let everything that has breath, praise the Lord. I'd tell wasn’t that wonderful, what the choir and orchestra did. It was tremendous.  The song said, "Let all the works of his hand be applauded" and we applaud the Lord. He gives gifts to people and I'm so glad they share their gifts with us. It’s a dream come true for me to serve in the church were people are so gifted musically and they let those gifts be used for the glory of God!  Thank you choir and orchestra and all were involved in the service thus far, it’s been tremendous.    Would you take your Bible, please, and open to the book of Daniel. We are in a study through the book of Daniel. Really what were doing is, were really studying chapters one through six. This series, is in a lot of ways, was designed to help our students as they go back into the school system, especially the college and university system. We want to help them dare to be a Daniel and so that was a lot of the idea that went behind us scheduling this series at this time. Today we come to chapter two. Daniel chapter two. You said before, nothing lasts forever. There’s a lot of truth in that statement. For example, I want you to think with me of sports dynasties. Nothing lasts forever. Dynasties rise and they fall. Back in the 60's, the dominant team in the NBA was the Boston Celtics. Some of you are old enough to remember the Celtics in those days. They won eleven NBA championships in 13 years. That team have on it, great players like Bill Russell and Bob Cousy, John Havelechek.  In fact they won eight straight NBA championships during the 60's.  And so someone may have thought, "well, the Celtics, they'll just forever, be the dominant team in the NBA but, that’s not so is it. Along came the 80's, well the late 70's and 80's and it was ShowTime. These were the Los Angeles Lakers. This was kind of when I was coming up as a teenager and young man in college, that era. That team was made up of Magic Johnson, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and great players like that. Kurt Rambis with the glasses, if you remember him and they were coached by Pat Riley. They were dominant in their day, in fact they went eight finals during that span of time and they won five NBA championships. Perhaps people thought the Lakers! The Lakers will always be on top but it isn’t so because dynasties rise and they fall.  It was the Celtics in the 60's, the Lakers in the 80's, then came the 90's and who was the dominant team during the 1990's? The Chicago Bulls!  They had on it, the greatest of all time, pound for pound, inch for inch, Michael Jordan and his sidekick Scottie Pippen. And that crazy man, Dennis Rodman. If you remember Dennis Rodman. crazy! the Bulls won six NBA championships. I can still picture in my mind, Michael Jordan, gesturing six championships!  had he not had this crazy idea to try to go play professional baseball, they probably would have one more championships and so the Bulls were the dominant team.   Somebody may have said, well the Bulls, theyll always be the dynasty. but, it isn't so is it. sports dynasties rise and fal,l but it's not just true in sports. it's true in business. businesses rise and businesses fall. monopolies and dynasties in the economic realm, rise and fall. in fact there was a study done of all the Fortune 500 companies, in the year 1955. how many of them still existed in 2014?   You know that 89%, thats nearly 90% of those Fortune 500 companies are no longer in the list because businesses rise and fall.  In fact, let me just mention a litany of companies. Blockbuster. Blockbuster was all the rage and there was a blockbuster on every corner and every strip shopping mall. but today, blockbusters s ,I believe, is bankrupt. they've gone through bankruptcy, because though they made the transition from VHS, the VCR's, to DVD, they didn't keep up and Netflix came in and Netflix would just send you a movie right over the Internet to your home or  you could go down to the local store in for a dollar you could read out of the red box, I think it's called. and Blockbuster is no more. sears. how many used to go shopping at Sears? I remember as a little boy going into a multi-storied Sears building in Memphis, Tennessee. it was a big trip for us. we would travel from our little  home town of Forrest City.  we would drive over to Memphis, get some burgers at Krystal and  go up into the tower at Sears in Memphis. we thought was big stuff. But who goes to Sears nowadays? Walmart. Amazon.com. in fact,  what store do you go to at all? you just order it over Amazon and it is dropped right on your front doorstep. Sears has not been able to keep up.  In fact, poor Sears they have paired up with Kmart. many forecasters say they'll not survive next year. what happens? businesss come and go just as sports dynasties do.  Kodak, Kodak was the dominant photography company for 100 years. and somebody said well Kodak will always dominate the photography business.  but you know what? they were so tied to film, that when digiital photography came out, they were left in the dustbin.  They couldn’t compete.   And their fortunes rose and fell.    Well, what's true in sports and what's true in business is also true in the political sphere. empires rise and empires fall. Theres a long litany of kings and would-be dictators that have arisen and fallen.  Ramses, Alexander, Caesar Augustus, Charlemagne, Genghis Khan, Hitler, Mussolini, Mau Se Tong, Stalin, ISIS. All of them rising, one day, to fall.  But I come here to tell you something. There is a kingdom that will never fall. There is a dynasty rising that will never be diminished. And it is the kingdom of our Lord and Christ, Jesus himself. And of that kingdom, Daniel speaks. Would you stand your feet and honor of God's word and we'll see what God's word says about this kingdom? Now, I’m going to have mercy on you.   I’m not going to read all 49 versus all right. Going to read the first twelve and this will be our Launchpad for the rest of the story. Give your best attention to what happens in verses 1 to 12, because this will set the stage. Daniel chapter 2 beginning in verse one God's word says,   In the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his spirit was troubled, and his sleep left him.  Then the king commanded that the magicians, the enchanters, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans be summoned to tell the king his dreams. So they came in and stood before the king. And the king said to them, “I had a dream, and my spirit is troubled to know the dream.” Then the Chaldeans said to the king in Aramaic,“O king, live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will show the interpretation.” The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, “The word from me is firm: if you do not make known to me the dream and its interpretation, you shall be torn limb from limb, and your houses shall be laid in ruins.  But if you show the dream and its interpretation, you shall receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. Therefore show me the dream and its interpretation.”  They answered a second time and said, “Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will show its interpretation.” The king answered and said, “I know with certainty that you are trying to gain time, because you see that the word from me is firm—if you do not make the dream known to me, there is but one sentence for you. You have agreed to speak lying and corrupt words before me till the times change. Therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that you can show me its interpretation.” The Chaldeans answered the king and said, “There is not a man on earth who can meet the king's demand, for no great and powerful king has asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or Chaldean.  The thing that the king asks is difficult, and no one can show it to the king except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.” Because of this the king was angry and very furious, and commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be destroyed.   Lets pray.  Lord we have breath this morning and because we do, we praise you Lord.  We see around us the ruins of dynasties and kingdoms and businesses that are risen only to fall.  God we believe your word that says there is a kingdom rising there is a dynasty rising that will never fall. it is the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, the Lord Jesus. We thank you for your kingdom. We thank you for the King. I pray this morning he will be lifted high and all of us would make sure that we are among his subjects and have pledged allegiance to the Lamb. We ask it in his name. Amen.  Please be seated.   Our story this morning begins with desperation. There is absolute desperation before God.  You know why don't you? Let me give you the reasons for desperation that the magicians, the enchanters and Daniel himself must've felt. The reason port was because the king is being unreasonable. They’re in a predicament to be sure. The king said I had a dream. It must have been a terrible dream. It must be a frightening dream and the King wants to know the meaning of it. And so, he orders that they tell him his dream. They say well that’s fine King, will tell you the dream as long as you tell us. We will tell you the meaning of your dream as long as you tell us what you dreamed.  And the king says Oh No.  In effect he says I've been suspicious about you boys all along.  If I tell you the dream you could just concoct some explanation of it and I have no means of knowing whether your purported interpretation is true or false. I’m going to put out before you a fleece, in effect, and I ordered this, you tell me, without me disclosing it to you, what I dream. And if you can tell me what I drink first then I'll believe the interpretation that you purport to give. Well the people realize, these magicians, these wise men, they realized that their goose is cooked because they are powerless for this predicament. They have no means with in themselves to come up with it. And they protest. They say only the gods know what transpires in the night and in the dark. Only they can tell the dream that you have. So there are reasons for them being desperate. But the more important thing is, what is their response to this desperation? And maybe you've come here today and there's some desperation in your life. Maybe you're facing some crisis of some sort. Perhaps it's a relational crisis sorts, or it’s a financial crisis, or it's an emotional crisis. The important thing is not the reasons for your desperation. The important thing is your response in your desperation. How will you respond? And I love the way Daniel responded in this desperate moment. He responded, first of all, by being very prudent. The Bible says in verse 14 when the executioner came to Daniel, this is verse 14, Daniel replied with prudence and discretion to Arioch.  Daniel gave a soft answer. The Bible says in Proverbs 15:1 a soft answer turns away wrath.   I heard a story about a Red Sox baseball player. His name was Wade Boggs.  A lot of you will remember Wade Boggs. I believe he was the third baseman for the Red Sox. And of course you know the archrivals to the Red Sox are the Yankees. Every time the Red Sox would go to play in Yankee Stadium, there would be this heckler over on the third-base line and he would incessantly criticize and belittle Wade Boggs. He was always on his case. And he would say "man you stink." "Man your no good." and he just be giving him a hard time. Later Boggs had finally had enough. And so when the man started criticizing Boggs just walked over to him and he said,  "Are you the man that's always running me down, you the man that it is always criticizing me?" and the Yankee fan said that's right, its me." what you can do about? Wade Boggs pulled out a brand-new baseball and he autographed it and tossed it up to the man.    And it is said that from that time on, that man became the biggest Yankee fan of Boston Red Sox player Wade Boggs.  Why, because he given a soft answer to wrath.    Daniel is faced with his potential execution. The executioner has come. He said you’ve got to tell me what this dream means or you going to be killed. And Daniel answers, the Bible says with prudence. And I want to recommend this to all of us, whenever somebody gets up in your grill, someone is on your case; you ought to be like Daniel and respond with prudence and discretion. What else could you do? It wasn't just that he was prudent, he was prayerful. I love this. It’s not going to appear on the screen. But listen to what says in verses 17 and 18 or you can look at it in your Bible verses 17 and 18. “Then Daniel went into his house and made the matter known to his three friends, his companions, and he told them to seek mercy from the God of Heaven concerning this mystery. What did Daniel do? How did he respond to his desperate situation? Daniel prayed. It was prudent and he was prayerful. And if we will be those two things, you'll be surprised how God delivers us from the crises of our lives. He prayed.   I heard a story about these three preachers that were sitting together and they were talking about prayer. What was the best posture for preying? And it happened that there was a telephone line repairman who was working and he was within earshot.  So the first preacher said, I find, that the best way to pray is to stretch my hands toward heaven and the and look up the sky, that's the best posture for prayer. Well the second preacher said, Oh no, the best posture for prayer is to get on your knees. There the Lord will hear your prayer. The third preacher said, well I don't think lifting your hand your hands to heaven and are getting down on your knees. He said the best posture for prayer is just to get flat on your face, be prone before the Lord. The old telephone line repairman had had enough, he piped up and said he fellas, the best posture I ever had in prayer was when I was hanging upside down from the telephone pole. I tell you when you're hanging upside down and your situation is desperate, you are going to pray.    Too many of us, we wait until our situation is desperate before we pray.  Prayer is not the last resort, prayer is the first resort and Daniel knows this. They come and say Daniel you got to tell us this dream or you're going to be executed. He is prudent and he is prayerful. Are you taking to the Lord, the burdens and crises of your life for his hand to move? Well Daniel was wise enough to do so. So now we move from desperation before God to deliverance by God. When we respond rightly, we’re going to find the Lord ready to act on our behalf and the Lord ready to deliver. Look at verse 19 and you’ll see if they’re on the screen. The Bible says. “Then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision of the night. Then Daniel blessed the God of Heaven.” What happened, God delivered him. The situation was desperate but our God is greater and he delivered. He delivered Daniel. Now here I see three things. First of all, our God is powerful. I actually agree with all the enchanters of Babylon in one sense. In verse 11 they had said, “no one can give the dream except the gods.” you know what, they were right. It had to be someone who was powerful enough, someone to whom the darkness is light.  Someone to whom what is shrouded, is revealed, and our God, is just that kind of God, he is powerful. He is able. Listen to what Psalm 139 says, “ oh Lord, your searched me, and know me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up. You discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my paths and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, you, oh Lord, know it all together.” and I could continue the reading, many of you know it well. You can't go where God is not. You can't know something that God doesn't already know.  Daniel turns in his desperation to this powerful God and God reveals to Daniel would only the gods can do. Only the one true God. He is powerful. You know what else I see here? He is present. Again verse 11, the Chaldeans say, “no one can reveal this except the gods and their dwelling is not among men.” they were right on the one hand but wrong on the other. Only God could reveal the dream, but they were wrong when they said, “his dwelling is not among men, his dwelling is among men. He is Emanuel, God come to dwell among us. And God was with Daniel. God was with Shadrack, Meshach, and Abednego. When they went into that fiery furnace, God was there. And when   Daniel needed him, God was there, and when you need God, he will be there. He is powerful. He is present, therefore he is praiseworthy. And I love what Daniel does here. Daniel receives this vision .God reveals to him the dream. What does Daniel do? Look at the latter half of this verse. What does it say? Then, this the latter half of the verse, then Daniel blessed the God of Heaven. Daniel, not only asked for God to intervene, but when God did, Daniel remembered to say thank you.  He praised him. Gordon read that passage earlier, so I won't repeat it now, but I do want to reiterate for us all, the importance, not only of bringing our petitions to God, but once he is gracious to us. Giving him our praise in response. I too often prone to forget when good things happen to me. I may ask for them, but then I don't remember to say thank you. In fact, just this week, one of our church members was so gracious, and called the office, and he said that some jambalaya. I've got 15 lunches and, I’m going to bring them by the office and so it was on Thursday of this week that dear brother brought those lunches by to feed all the staff. We all gobble them up and enjoyed them very much Well a day or two went by and it was Saturday and I was preparing for this message and I was reminded that I ought to give thanks and so I texted the brother and said brother thank you for that lunch. That was delicious. And how many of us, we’re feasting on the good gifts God gives us but we don't remember to say thank you.   While I'm at it, let me just say this, this church is so good to Nell and Me.  You are so good to us and I know a lot of you have done things for me and I never even said thank you to you.  I’ve not written you a thank you note and maybe I haven’t responded and right now can I just blanket say, thank you God for Istrouma, thank you dear friends for your gifts and your support and your kindness.  I really do appreciate it, I really do. I really do.  We ought to remember to be a people who are grateful; Daniel was that kind of man.  He praised the Lord for God's good gift. And not only did he give thanks, he gave tribute. Because when Daniel stood before the king, the king said, “can you give me the interpretation, can you tell me my dream, and can you tell me what it meant.” Daniel said, “no sir,’ he said, “I cannot do it, but there is a God in heaven, and he has shown me what you think.  Daniel didn't take credit. Credit was not due to Daniel. He was wise enough not to co-opt God's glory. He gave God thanks and he gave God tribute.  He gave God the glory for the good thing that it been done.  Well now I come to the end. I want to say something about the dominion of God.  You see our desperation, if we respond to it rightly will lead to God's deliverance and in his deliverance we see his sovereign dominion overall. Now here I will refer to verse 44. Daniel is giving the interpretation of the dream and he says, looks to the screen you'll see the verse, “and in the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end and it shall stand forever.” there's the title of today's sermon. “The kingdom that shall stand forever.” sports dynasties rise and fall. Businesses rise and fall. Earthly kingdoms rise and fall, but there is a kingdom that will never fall. In fact, this King, his reign is first of all, perpetual. In perpetuity. For all time. Eternally, Jesus will reign. Daniel knew this from the dream that Nebuchadnezzar had had and the interpretation God him. Now listen to the dream. It’s given to us in verses 31 through 35. You saw o king and behold a great image. This image, mighty and have exceeding brightness, stood before you and its appearance was frightening.  I want you as I read this to try to envision in your minds eye this statue, that was erected there. Verse 32 “the head of this image was of fine gold. Its chest and arms were of silver. It’s middle and thighs of bronze. Its legs of iron. Its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. As you looked, a stone,” now note this careful, “a stone was cut out by no human hand and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold altogether were broken in pieces and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found but the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. What a vision Daniel had. Daniel had a vision of kingdoms. A succession of kingdoms.  Why? Because kingdoms rise and fall. The first of those kings was the head of gold and God told him, is Nebuchadnezzar. That is the Persian Empire. It was known for it’s its stores of gold. But with time, Babylon fell. In its place rose up a kingdom of silver. That was pictured in the arms and the chest of this image. That was the Medo-Persian Empire. it lasted some 200 years and just as Babylon was famous for its gold, Medo Persia was famous for its hoards of silver. But with time Medo-Persia fell. There was a man in Macedonia, Philip who rose up and his son after him Alexander and Alexander conquered the whole earth. His army dressed in bronze from helmet to toe and their shields and swords even of bronze and the mighty Grecian army swept the known earth. But that Kingdom to though it rose to the pinnacle of human achievement it fell. And behind it came that army of iron. The great Roman legions and they took the place of that Grecian Empire. But just like those before it, it to would fall. How would it fall? Listen to me. There was a stone cut out by no human hand. Who is this stone that came and struck the image and all the kingdoms of the world fall before this stone.  I tell you he is the stone that was rejected of men, but is the cornerstone of the Church. He is the Lord Jesus. Cut by no human and the virgin birth is there prophesied, Jesus is the King of Kings and he will rein in perpetuity forever he the perpetual king. Now friends, as true is that is, and as important as it is, there's something even more important for you, that is, his reign must be personal. He’s going to reign. Doesn’t the Bible say every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord? One day, everybody is going to bow the knee to Jesus. Every Buddhist, every Muslim, every Hindu, every Christian, we are all going to bow the knee.  What makes the difference is, did you do it now, willingly, of your own volition, in repentance and faith? Or will you that day, by force? This great king, Nebuchadnezzar, when given the dream and its interpretation, he did what we all ought to do. Look at it. Now I'm in verse 47. The last verse pictured here. “The king answered and said to Daniel truly your God is God. He is the God of gods and Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries for you have been able to reveal this mystery. . Nebuchadnezzar that greatest of all despots, bowed his knee before the King of kings and Lord of Lords. So must every one of us. There’s a mountain in New Hampshire. I believe there the Green Mountains is the name of them and in one of those great mountains, there was a protrusion. There was a piece of rock that jutted out from the face of the cliff. You see a picture of it here on the screen. This is an iconic image from New Hampshire.  You know what they call this? The old man in the mountain. Boys and girls can you look up there and can you see his nose and his brow and his chin there.  The old man in the mountain.  And from time immoral, the old man in the mountain was there. I don’t know what you call people that live in New Hampshire, New Hampshireites, I guess. They love the old man in the mountain. In fact I believe he's on their state stamp and seal and a million other souvenirs from New Hampshire. But one cold night in 2003, the old man in the mountain, gave way. There were fissures that had formed by the ice thawing and the freezing of it over so many centuries and in the night, that great visage broke off and slid down the mountain to the valley below.  And the old man in the mountain is no more. It broke their hearts. A man in the mountain. A man in the mountain who came down. This was a tragedy. I'm speaking to you today of a triumph. There is another man in the mountain. He is a stone cut by no human hand. He is the cornerstone. He is the Lord Jesus and he came down. No one can do these things except the gods and they do not make their dwelling among men. Oh yes they do. He made his dwelling among us and we beheld his glory. The glory as of the only begotten of the father. Full of grace and truth. Jesus is the stone upon which all hope is built. In fact I’m reminded, of this great old hymn.  “My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus's name. On Christ the solid rock I stand, all of the ground all other ground is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand. Kingdoms rise and fall. Sports dynasties rise and fall.  Businesses rise and fall. But there is a dynasty rising. There is a kingdom rising and will fill the whole earth.  You need to make sure that you are a subject to that King. Lets pray. God, we praise you for your word. What a great God you are. You see in the darkness. You know our thoughts before we think them. You know a word before it’s on our lips and you reveal what is mystery. You tell us what is to come. It is certain. It is sure. We thank you that your kingdom is rising. And that we can be a part of it. By your grace, your mercy, we can be a part of it.  We praise you, in Jesus mighty name, Amen.  

oh so you want show notes eh??? Well Daniel just got home from rehearsal and it's too late to be googling videos and such. How about you wait til morning. Can you do that for me?   ok love you!!!!!   www.GettingFeltUpPodcast.com

There is a big ruckus in the forest today as Ben the Bear challenges everyone to a rock throwing contest. He even challenges God! Well Daniel the Rabbit isn't about to stand for that.This episode was written and filmed by Nicholas Falk