Podcasts about asians

In this episode, host Josh interviews Simon Hammer, VP of Product at Vimbly Group, about acquiring and managing e-commerce brands. Simone shares a case study from the cocktail shaker market, illustrating how focusing solely on quantitative metrics led to missed opportunities. He emphasizes the importance of qualitative customer feedback, brand storytelling, and product-market fit to build lasting brands and avoid competing only on price. The discussion highlights key lessons for e-commerce leaders: assess market potential, listen to customers, and continuously test and iterate to stay competitive.Chapters:Introduction to Simone Hammer and Background (00:00:00)Josh introduces Simone Hammer, his background, and experience in e-commerce and investment banking.Approach to Brand Acquisition and Quantitative Analysis (00:00:55)Discussion on traditional quantitative methods for acquiring brands and the limitations of focusing solely on numbers.Case Study: Cocktail Shaker Brand and Market Dynamics (00:01:38)Simone shares a case study about their cocktail shaker brand, market share, and the impact of COVID-19.Competitor Analysis and Information Memorandum (00:03:08)Simone describes obtaining a competitor's information memorandum and insights into their strategies and market position.Market Changes and Increased Competition (00:04:07)Discussion on rising freight costs, increased competition, and the challenges faced in the cocktail shaker market.Brand Building vs. KPI Focus (00:05:05)Comparison between their KPI-driven approach and the competitor's focus on brand building and storytelling.Consequences of Ignoring Qualitative Feedback (00:06:59)Simone explains the negative outcomes of neglecting qualitative customer feedback and the resulting price competition.Importance of Qualitative Customer Insights (00:07:53)Emphasis on the value of qualitative data, customer feedback, and brand building for long-term business success.Lessons Learned and Industry Trends (00:09:01)Reflection on industry trends, the necessity of qualitative insights, and the risk of competing solely on price.Host Reflection and Question on Customer Feedback (00:10:04)Josh reflects on his own business practices and asks Simone what customer feedback they missed.Specific Customer Preferences Missed (00:10:53)Simone details specific customer preferences, such as the shine of the shaker and the appeal of the stand.In-Person vs. Online Customer Insights (00:11:55)Insights gained from in-person customer interactions versus online feedback and the importance of customer development.Three Key Takeaways for E-commerce Success (00:13:43)Josh summarizes three actionable takeaways: market opportunity, listening to customers, and continuous testing.Closing Remarks and Future Follow-Up (00:16:48)Josh thanks Simone and mentions the possibility of future episodes to check on progress.Links and Mentions:Tools and Websites  Helium 10Key Takeaways  Identifying Market Opportunities: 00:13:43Listening to Customers: 00:14:47Testing and Iterating: 00:15:49Transcript:Josh 00:00:00  Today, I'm excited to introduce you to Simon Hammer. Simon is the VP of Product at Vimbly Group, a New York City based firm that scales and invests in tech enabled businesses where he has worked for over ten years. He currently runs Vimbly Group's e-commerce business unit, as well as having his hands involved in a number of Vimbly Group's eight other business units. Prior to the Vimbly Group, Simon was a healthcare investment banker at a boutique investment bank in New York City, where he focused on raising capital and mid-market mergers and acquisitions involving biotech, healthcare, technology and healthcare service companies. He has a bachelor's degree from Cornell University, and I met Simon at the Billion Dollar Seller Summit earlier this year. And Simon, I'm excited to welcome you to the podcast. Welcome.Simon 00:00:50  Thanks, Josh. Really appreciate that. Nice intro. Thanks for having me.Josh 00:00:55  As you look to acquire other brands, and I love that you kind of were an acquire or aggregator before the aggregator theme became pop became popular. So you're not on the the bandwagon there.Josh 00:01:08  You can be like, no, we were doing this long, a long time ago. You know, I think that that's really interesting, Simon. I think you've taken this approach that's actually a little bit different than I think the typical answer is, right, because I've listened to a bunch of other people that talk about acquiring businesses. And I'm looking at these specific numbers and, you know, I'm trying to draw conclusions and, you know, kind of look at 2020 and what happened during Covid and say, okay, this was an artificial bump and it's all very quantitative, right?Simon 00:01:38  All the quantitative stuff that you're talking about like looking historical, it's a given. Right. We always do that. We've always done it. And for the longest time, that's all we did. And, you know, one of our brands right now is going through a major shift in that it, for such a long time survived on three products. Basically, there's a whole, you know, there's more skews, but there's basically more Asians.Simon 00:02:02  But there's there's effectively three basins. One of those. basically a shell of itself now. And part of the reason why is because, you know, actually, if you'll divulge me for a second. So, pre-COVID and even through the first, you know, a couple years of Covid and depending on where you want to, you know, start and stop it, I guess. or, you know, where the beginning till now is, I guess. But first couple of years of it, it was doing incredibly well, right? It was something like anywhere between 25 and 35%, or it accounted for 25 to 35% of our gross margin. That gross margin, including everything from landed costs, three PL costs, FBA costs, advertising, marketing returns, all that stuff. Just not just not like overhead and, and software, things like that nature. But but gross profit. Right. And so it was a large part of our business. this one product and you know, during the beginning of Covid, I got my hands on a competitor, one of our biggest direct competitors.Simon 00:03:08  Their information memorandum, which is basically like their, this deck. it's like 50 pages of their business because they're trying to sell their business. Okay. And through like, you know, like, you know, my partner Sam, he has just a ton of connections in the entrepreneur space, a ton of connections with these brokers. And so we get a lot of deals right across a lot of different industries. and so we just happen to get our direct competitors information memorandum. Right. So this gave us everything about their business, right? We knew the numbers. We knew. we knew, who their suppliers were, right? What their strategy was, what their projections were like. You know, you name it, we knew it. And, I mean, we were like, we could look on helium ten and know that we were dominating. But then we saw the real numbers. We were, you know, we were dominant player in the market. and then all of a sudden, right, like during Covid, you start seeing freight costs go up.Simon 00:04:07  You start seeing, a lot of sellers into the space. The cocktail shaker space is kind of the space that we're playing in for one of our brands. and this is where the the set, you know, was established. and, you know, was this, you know, what's called roughly like 30% of the business. it had basically, started having rank weed, right? The ran...

2026 might be just beginning, but your Afternoona's are looking at endings. In particular endings that didn't quite land for us so we took a stab at rewriting them. See if you agree :)And warning: Lia almost WAS ended the morning she recorded. Seriously. Amy doesn't need to use the "Amy Button" to shut down the story, but fair warning it's pretty gross.Ready to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Dr. Bryant Lin is a primary care physician, educator, and researcher at Stanford University. In 2018, he founded CARE – the Center for Asian Health Research and Education. In 2023, CARE began a focused research effort investigating lung cancer in non-smoking Asians. In 2024, Dr. Lin was diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer, having never smoked in his life. After his diagnosis, Dr. Lin sprung into action. He began receiving care from Dr. Heather Wakelee – a Stanford oncologist specializing in lung cancer. Dr Wakelee is the Deputy Director of the Stanford Cancer Institute, the Division Chief of Medical Oncology, and a leader in the International Association for the Study of Lung Cancer. In this episode, we are privileged to be joined by both Dr. Lin and his oncologist, Dr. Wakelee.Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Lin describes the experience of receiving and living with a diagnosis that has been life changing for both him and his family. He details his remarkable efforts to leverage his diagnosis for the good of patients and rising medical professionals  — and explains how spiritual practices have helped sustain him through this difficult time. Dr. Wakelee shares her approach to first visits with patients facing daunting cancer diagnoses, how she approaches grief, and the unique privilege and challenge of treating a colleague. Together, the doctor and his physician explore the value of hope in cancer, the dangers of false hope, and the importance of maximizing meaning in life — however much time is left. In this episode, you'll hear about: 2:50 - Dr. Lin's experience of being diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer despite having never smoked14:20 - Dr. Wakelee's approach to first visits with newly diagnosed lung cancer patients25:35 - Dr. Lin's experience of shifting from the mindset of “doctor” to the mindset of “patient” 30:30 - How a doctor's messaging can affect the patient's outlook on their diagnosis43:00 - The common themes prevalent across religions and spiritual orientations that support patients in the navigation of serious illness50:24 - Advice to doctors for finding deeper meaning in medicineListen to Dr. Lin's first appearance on The Doctor's Art. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to info@thedoctorsart.com.Copyright The Doctor's Art Podcast 2026

Episode 401: At the start of the twentieth century, Vancouver, B.C., was a fast-growing Pacific port. Most residents were white settlers of British or European descent, but Chinese and Japanese communities were already well established and growing. They lived, worked, and built businesses in neighbourhoods like Chinatown and Powell Street, playing a central role in the city's economy while being denied political rights and social acceptance. By 1907, economic anxiety and racial resentment had hardened into open hostility. Asian workers were blamed for falling wages and job insecurity, a message repeated by newspapers, politicians, and organized exclusionary groups. The riots that followed on September 7 were not sudden outbursts, but the result of years of public rhetoric that treated entire communities as threats. This episode examines how those ideas gave rise to violence on Vancouver's streets. Sources:The 1907 Racist Riots – Union Zindabad!The Asiatic Exclusion League Riot, 1907 — Published by BC Labour Heritage CentreThe Vancouver Anti-Asian RiotsCauses of the 1907 anti-Asian riots :The Lessons of the Anti-Asiatic Riot"Images" and "Issues" : the portrayal of Asians in the Vancouver Daily Province and the Vancouver Daily World, 1907 to 1908Anti-Asian Riots of 1907 - British Columbia - An Untold HistoryMayor Ken SimDavid LamChinese Immigration ActChinese Head Tax in Canada1907 Vancouver anti-Asian riotsAsian Labour History in British ColumbiaA White Man's Province by Patricia Roy | Internet ArchiveW.L. Mackenzie King's 1907 Report on Japanese Losses in Vancouver RiotsW.L. Mackenzie King's 1907 Report on Chinese Losses in Vancouver RiotsThe History of Canada Series: Trouble on Main Street: Mackenzie King Reason Race And The 1907 Vancouver Riots Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Think about the histories of your family or memories from your past. What if you recounted them with a dash of magic? What happens when we infuse our stories on film with some magical realism? Tonight's edition of APEX Express features three filmmakers who created magical realism short films centering AAPI women. Listen to directors Cami Kwan, Dorothy Xiao, and Rachel Leyco discuss their films and experiences behind the scenes with host Isabel Li. Cami Kwan: Website | Instagram | Seed & Spark Dorothy Xiao: Website | Instagram  Rachel Leyco: Website | Instagram   Transcript 00:01 [INTRO] Isabel: You're tuned into Apex Express on KPFA. Tonight's edition is all about stories. Think about the histories of your family or memories from your past. Now, what if you recounted them with a dash of magic? What happens when we infuse our stories on film with some magical realism? I'm your host, Isabel Li, and today we have three very special guests, Cami Kwan, Dorothy Chow, and Rachel Leyco. All of them are AAPI filmmakers who received the Julia S. Gouw Short Film Challenge grant from the Coalition of Asian Pacifics and Entertainment and have created short films featuring AAPI stories with magical realism. My first guest of the night is Cami Kwan, a Chinese-American director specializing in stop-motion animation who directed the short film Paper Daughter.  Hi Cami, welcome to APEX Express!  Cami: Hello, thank you so much for having me. Isabel: How do you identify and what communities do you consider yourself a part of?  Cami: So I identify as a queer Asian American woman um and I am a descendant of immigrants, of Chinese immigrants. um Then the communities that I am part of, part of the queer community, part of the Los Angeles community, part of the Chinese American and Asian American community, part of the mixed race community and part of the stop-motion animation and independent artist community.  Isabel: I'm so excited to talk to you about your upcoming short film, Paper Daughter, a gothic stop-motion animated Chinese-American fairy tale about a young woman grappling with the guilt of using the identity of a deceased girl to immigrate to the US via Angel Island in 1926, which is such a fascinating concept. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you came up with this story and the historical specificity behind it?  Cami: Absolutely, yeah. So like I mentioned, I'm the child of immigrants, descendants of immigrants rather. So my great grandparents immigrated to the US from China. My great grandfather came over in 1916 and my great grandma came over in 1926. And so I've always grown up knowing the story of Angel Island and knowing the story about the paper sons and paper daughters who had to find any way into the United States that they could. And so they were forced to, you know, take on the identities of other people. And those stories have always stuck with me, you know, like it's very personal. Angel Island means a lot to me and my family. And just the extreme measures that people have always had to take just for the chance at a better life have always been really meaningful to learn about. just the like, I'll use romances in like the art movement, like romantic. It's very romantic and kind of fairy tale-ish, the idea of having to take on a new identity and pretend to be somebody that you're not. And often those identities would be people who had passed away, and then those families had then sold those identities or given those identities to new people. And so it's so interesting the idea of being like the last person to know somebody so deeply, but you'll never get to meet them and you'll never be able to thank them or repay what they sacrificed for your future. And that's kind of how I feel as a descendant of immigrants. The sacrifice that my family made for me was made so long ago that there's no way for me to ever pay it back. And I didn't really get a say in whether I received that sacrifice or not. And I think a lot of descendants of immigrants kind of have to struggle with this. What does it mean for us to be given this new chance at the cost of somebody who came before us? And so that's all of that kind of rolled up into this 14-minute film. Isabel: You describe your film as being in a gothic style? Can you describe what this looks like and why gothic?  Cami: The subject matter is just so naturally gothic. It's dealing a lot with death and a lot with guilt and those big capital R romantic subjects and stuff. My day job, my day-to-day job is working in stop-motion animation directing mostly like children's series and mostly toy related stuff. And so I spent so much of my time in the happy brighter like birthday party storyline kind of like space. But what really made me want to be a filmmaker in the first place were all these like heavier themes, these bigger themes, films by Guillermo del Toro and like Tim Burton and Henry Selig and Hayao Miyazaki and all of those kind of have this like gothic edge to them. And so that's like a story that I've been a type of story I've been wanting to tell for about a decade now.  Isabel: Stylistically, how does this show up in your film? So I imagine darker colors or do you have a visual like preview for us?  Cami: it is a little bit in the darker color space, but it's still very colorful despite all that. It's moody more so than dark, I would say. um We have a lot of like light and dark themes, a lot of like shadow. stuff and um a lot of magical realism, which is where that fairy tale aspect kind of comes in, because you're dealing with things that are so abstract, like guilt and sacrifice and wearing the identity of somebody else, that there's no literal way to convey that. Well, there are literal ways to convey that, but none of those literal ways I feel fully convey the emotional weight of everything. And so we've gone in this very magical realism space where people are tearing information out of these booklets that contain information about the person they're supposed to be and creating these paper masks out of them. And so yeah, there's this whole like magical aspect that tends to be kind of darker. There's imagery of just like being consumed by the identity that you're just supposed to temporarily wear. And there's a lot of like, yeah, there's a lot of darkness in those themes, I think.  Isabel: Wow, that's so interesting. I'd love to learn more about stop motion. What does stop motion make possible that isn't as easily accomplished through other forms of filmmaking? Cami: Yeah, I think the reason why I'm drawn to stop motion, what I stop motion makes possible is like a universality of just like a human experience because with other kinds of animation and other kinds of filmmaking, like there is kind of like an opacity to like how it's made. There's this this veneer, this magic to it, and there's that magic to stop motion too. But the difference between all of those and stop motion is made out of like everyday materials. It's made out of fabric. using paper. We're using clay. We're using materials that people have encountered in their day-to-day lives. And like, that's the one thing that we are all guaranteed to have in common is that we live in a material world and we encounter these textures and materials around us. so by like taking such a specific story and trying to convey such universal themes, it really like behooves us to be using like um a medium that is as universal as stop motion is. So I think that's like the big thing that stop motion unlocks for us. Plus also story-wise, like it's very paper centered, paper daughter, they're tearing paper strips, they're making paper masks. So like physically using these paper textures adds a lot to our world. um And I think working in stop motion gives you a degree of control that live action doesn't give you because we're creating. all of our characters, all of our sets by hand, which gives us so much of a say over what they look like and what they convey based on how they're constructed and stuff. And that's just a degree of communication that nothing else brings.  Isabel: I love that this is a magical realism film and you mentioned Guillermo del Toro. I know that in your campaign trailer, you featured Pan's Labyrinth, which is my all-time favorite movie.  Cami: Me too! Isabel: Yeah! How exactly did you come up with this specific blend of history and fantasy for your film?  Cami: I think that it's almost a natural human instinct to kind of have history and fantasy. Like, that's all that histories are, just stories told to us. And it's just being less literal about it and really leaning into the metaphors that we might use to convey the emotional realities of those histories, right? And so I feel like Del Toro does that a lot with his work. And Miyazaki as well does a lot of that with his work. So much of it deals with unpacking like World War II and things like that. And that's something that I've always just personally been drawn to. Even as a kid, my dream jobs were archaeologist or animator. And so here I kind of get to like do a little bit of both of those, know, like using the magic of animation to make history feel a lot more present and tangible and like emotionally relevant, which is It's really quite poetic to be able to be telling this story right now because it's going to mark the 100 year anniversary of my great grandmother's immigration to the US. I think we are due for an examination of immigration in our country. And I'm very interested to see how people respond to the questions that this raises of how different is the immigrant experience 100 years later. Have we gotten better? Have we gotten worse? Like I would posit it's perhaps worse now than it was then, but I'm really hoping to like, yeah, bring that reality into a more approachable space. And I feel like having that blend of magic and history just makes it a little bit more approachable than telling it in a literal way, you know? Isabel: Those are some great questions to ask. And on that same note, I'm interested in the specificity of Angel Island as well. What types of research did you do to produce your film?  Cami: Oh, gosh, I read every book I could find about it. have… How many books were those? Oh, my gosh, I want to say, like, not as many as I want there to be, you know? Like, Angel Island is not as well covered in history as places like Ellis Island, and there's a lot. to unpack as to why that may be, especially like the racial aspect of it. But I probably read about a dozen different books to prepare for this film. One of the most concrete and useful books that I read is a book called Island, and it's a collection of the poems that are carved into the walls of the men's barracks that remain on Angel Island. And those poems are a huge part, perhaps, the reason why Angel Island has even been preserved as a historical landmark. And so um the three authors went to great pains to replicate these poems, translate them into English, and provide a lot of historical context for the different topics of the poems. And there's a lot of like first-hand testimony from people who immigrated through Angel Island that they interviewed and included in this book. And so I do think that that book, Island, is like the primary source of most of my research for it. Everything else is more like quantitative history and quantitative data. Oh, also The Chinese in America by, I believe it's Iris Chang, that it's not just about Angel Island, but I read that and that gave me a much better understanding about like the place that Chinese immigrants have in American history. Because when I was a kid, like I really only ever learned about great grandma came over through Angel Island and now we're American and we live in America. But our history, as far as I was ever taught, begins and ends with us entering the United States. And so reading um the Chinese in America gave me a much broader understanding about, like, why did we leave China in the first place? And like, what has it meant for us to be in America as Chinese people since then? Yeah, all that came out of like in 2020 and 2021 when the rise of anti-Asian hate crimes were kind of coming about. I personally had to have a huge reckoning with like my racial identity and like how that has impacted like my experience growing up as a mixed-race person who's pretty perceivably Asian and all that stuff. So it was a really whole circle broad situation. Oh, I want to do a quick shout out to the Angel Island Immigration Station Foundation. They were very generous with their time and they answered a lot of my questions and sent me a lot of archival images from Angel Island. So I want to thank them so much for their help in the research process of this.  Isabel: Oh, wow. How fascinating. Did you have any expectations on how the production process was going to go? And now that you're on the other side of it, what are your reflections?  Cami: I had no expectations as to whether we were going to get outside funding or not. Like I, I'm not an experienced or adept grant applicant. Like, it was really just because this was the right kind of project to fit with those kinds of grants. So I had no expectations there. So I am beyond thrilled to have received the support from Cape and Janet Yang and Julia S. Gouw and Shorescripts that we've received, like beyond thrilled for that. So that exceeded all of my expectations. um But as far as how the actual production has gone, the fabrication and the animation and the post-production, that's all stuff that I'm extremely familiar with. Again, that is my day-to-day life, that is my job, that is like what I have done for the last eight years at my studio, Apartment D.  So that all went pretty much as I hoped and expected that it would, but here on the other side, the one thing that has surprised me about it was how much love all of the artists put in this project because like we've said so much in this conversation, there's so much specificity to this. This is about my great grandma. This is about my family and my feelings about being a descendant of immigrants. It's so specific that I wasn't sure how emotionally it would resonate with anybody else that wasn't me or wasn't part of the AAPI community, you know?  But every single person — doesn't really even matter if they were Asian, doesn't really even matter if they have a specific connection to immigration — every artist that I asked to join me on this project, I immediately understood what it meant and understood what we were trying to say. And they put so much love into it. And like, we all put a lot of love into everything we do. It's stop motion. It's like, you don't do this unless you love it, you know, because you certainly are not doing it for the money or anything. um everyone was just so…I'm gonna say careful, but I don't mean careful like cautious. I mean careful like full of care. And I did not expect that and I am so grateful for it. Yeah, looking back, it's just so precious and so tender and like I'm so fortunate to have had the crew with me that I had to make this film.  Isabel: That's so lovely. What are you most excited about upon completing your film?  Cami: I'm just excited to share it with the world. I'm so proud of it. It is truly, and I'm not just saying this because it's my baby, but it is very beautiful and it is very special. For a lot of us, one of the first times that we've been able to be in charge of our own departments or to make the decisions that we wanna make and tell things, do things, show things the way that we think they should be done. And so it's kind of significant for many of us to have this film come out and to be received. What I want people to take away from it is an appreciation and a gratitude for everything that has had to happen for us to be where we are now. And I also really want people to take away the unconditional love that has occurred for us to be in the country that we have and to be the people that we are. Every single person is where they are. doesn't matter if you're in America or anywhere else, like we are all here because of the sacrifices that were made by the people who came before us. And those were all made out of unconditional love. And that's like, I want people to come away from this film remembering that our country is built on the unconditional love and sacrifice from people who came before us. And then wanting to give that unconditional love and sacrifice to everybody who's gonna come after us. Isabel: Such an amazing message. And I know that there's still lots to do and you still have a lot to celebrate with your upcoming film and with the festival circuit with Paper Daughter. But looking ahead, do you have any plans of what you want to do after the short film?  Cami: Yeah, I would love to bring it into a feature. There was so much that we had to cut out to make this film. On one hand, I'm glad that we cut out what we did because I think the film as it is, is like so tight and so like airtight and good and perfect and sparse in a really nice way, but we don't even get to delve into life before Angel Island. It begins and ends on the island, and I would love to explore the stories that brought this all about and the stories that come after. So bringing this up into a feature version and getting that in front of people would be amazing. And I have a couple other short film and feature film and script ideas that I would like to start working on as well. I've kind of really, I'm really grooving on the like Asian early Chinese American history. um So most of them are going to be set in California and focus on like Chinese immigrants and their role in the founding of America. um I'm really excited for the like, after all the film festivals, I really want this film to end up in classrooms. And I even just the other day like I have a friend who's a third and fourth grade teacher and she showed it to her class and then the students asked me questions about Angel Island and about animation. if this can play any part in helping to spread the story of Angel Island and the people that immigrated through there, like that's all that I could ever want from this. So I'm really excited for that.  Isabel: That's wonderful. I'll put your website, social media and seed and spark page for Paper Daughter up on kpfa.org so our listeners can learn more about this stop motion film and get updates for how they can watch it. I can't wait to see it when it comes out. And Cami, thank you so much for joining me on Apex Express today.  Cami: Of course, thank you so much for having me. It was a great, great time talking with you.  Isabel: You just heard Cami Kwan talk about her film Paper Daughter. On Apex Express tonight, we have two more special guests who made magical realism short films. Next up is Dorothy Xiao, who made the film Only in This World. She's a Los Angeles-based award-winning filmmaker who likes to create grounded family dramas with a hint of fantasy.  Hi, Dorothy. Welcome to APEX Express.  Dorothy: Hi. Thanks for having me!  Isabel: Of course! Thank you for coming here. My first question for you is actually quite broad. How do you identify and what communities are you a part of?  Dorothy: Oh, that is a good question. I think in a broader sense. I would say, obviously, I identify as an Asian American. um But I think, like, for me, because I grew up in the 626 or the San Gabriel Valley, I grew up with a lot of people who looked like me. So I think I didn't truly identify as being Asian or had awareness of my identity until later on when I went to college. And then I took Asian American Studies classes and I was like, oh, wow, I'm Asian. Or like, what does it mean to be Asian? You know, like, I think I, at that time, prior to recognizing and understanding what it meant, and also even to be a minority, because at that, like I said, growing up in 626, even going to UCLA, where I'm surrounded by a lot of Asians, I never really felt like a minority. But I think it was really after graduating where I, depending on the spaces that I would enter into, especially in the film industry, I was learning like, oh, yeah, I am a minority and this is what it feels like. And prior to that, I think I just identified as being a daughter of immigrants. And that still is very strongly the case just because I grew up listening to so many stories that my parents would tell me, like coming from China, growing up like they grew up in China during a completely different time. I can't even imagine what it would be like living in the way that they did, you know, during the Cultural Revolution, under communism, in an intense way where they were starving, all this political stuff. But yeah, a second gen or for a lot of people, first generation, daughter of immigrants, of parents who decided that they wanted to make a better life for their kids out here in the States. I think that I want to stand by me saying that I don't feel like I am, I don't really want to identify as only just single categories all the time, just because within each community, could be, you could have nuances, right? Because I am a woman, but I'm also like a woman who doesn't want children, you know, and there was just so many different things of how I identify. So hard for me to categorize myself like that. But they are, there are tidbits of different communities. Like I still identify, identify as Asian American. I identify as a daughter of immigrants. I identify as a female filmmaker and yeah. And a business owner, I guess. Yeah.  Isabel: Right. Yes. Thank you for that nuanced answer. You know, it's so fascinating because I was reading about your work and you have worked in animal research administration and an afterschool program and even web development for nonprofits. How did you get into writing and directing?  Dorothy: Yeah. So after graduating college, I was definitely in a place where many, I'm sure, fresh grads understand what we call the quarter life crisis, where we don't know what we wanna do with our lives. And I was working at UCLA because that was the only job that I could get out of college for an animal research administration office. And really, I worked for them as a student. So I was like, well, it makes sense to have that be my full-time job, because you're in a place where you don't have skills. So how do you get a job if you don't have skills? That weird silly catch-22 situation. So I studied psychology in undergrad because my goal was to become a therapist. I wanted to work with Asian and Asian immigrant communities to help them with mental health because there's such a stigma attached to it. And being somebody who found mental health really important and also found that it was a really great way to understand myself. I wanted to work with, I guess, the people of my community. But at that time, I realized that there's still a stigma attached to mental health and it's really hard to get people to even go to therapy. Like living with my parents, it's really difficult. I cannot ever convince them to go. um And so I had pivoted into, or at least I discovered this filmmaking competition and ended up just like making a film for fun with a couple of friends, random people that um were not in film at all. And I had a lot of fun and I realized that we could actually create stories talking about things that are very similar to mental health or could provide that catharsis and validation that you could probably get in a session, in a therapy session. And it's not clinical at all. It's not as clinical. So, you know, on all those different jobs that you mentioned, they're all day jobs, know, animal research administration and then working for an after school program. That was me still trying to figure out how to be a filmmaker on my weekends. I still needed a day job. I didn't have the luxury of going to film school. So I would work at different places that gave me the flexibility of having a day job. But then also I had free time during the weekend to just make films with my friends, make friends films with people like my mom, who was one of my first actors earlier on. Love my mom. She did not do the greatest in my film, but I love her for being there for me. But yeah, like the different organizations or just jobs that I worked for were all really good in terms of providing me management skills and also communication skills because I worked in different industries, you know, and so at the end of the day, it all culminated in me at my current place. Like I am a freelance filmmaker and I also run my own video production company. So um becoming a writer, I mean, being a writer director is my main identity as a filmmaker. However, I don't think you could be a good writer-director if you don't have life experience. And having all those different jobs that I've had provided me with a lot of varied life experience and I interacted with a lot of different people, many different personalities.  Isabel: Yeah, no, I love that. So you grew up in Alhambra, which I'm familiar with because I too grew up in the San Gabriel Valley. How would you say that growing up in Alhambra has shaped you as an artist?  Dorothy: Alhambra is really special, I feel like, because in the San Gabriel Valley, there are many cities like this. You have Chinese people who can actually get by without ever having to learn English. And the same goes for Latin communities as well. And, you know, I have aunts and uncles who lived in Alhambra for years and never learned how to speak English. So I think it's like, what's so special about it, it feels like a safe space for a lot of immigrant communities. And then my parents being immigrants from China. living in Alhambra was a place where they could feel safe and feel connected to the people that they left behind in another country. And so being a child of immigrants, a daughter of like an Asian American, like a Chinese American growing up in Alhambra, I definitely felt like I grew up with a lot of people who were similar to me. know, we were like a lot of times the first American born children of our families even, and it was, we had to essentially understand what it meant to be Asian versus American and all of that.  But I think like being in Alhambra, I never felt like I wasn't seen, or at least I never felt like I was a minority. I think I mentioned this earlier, in that growing up in Alhambra, you do see a lot of people who look like you. And I have a lot of friends in the film industry who have moved out to California because they grew up in towns where they were like one, the only person, the only Asian person in their school or whatever. And I didn't have that experience. So for me, it was really special just being able to have a whole group of friends where there's a bunch of Asians. And we all spoke different languages. Like I had a lot of friends who were Cantonese speakers, but I'm a Mandarin speaker, but it was just really cool. It was like going to your friends' places and then you have aunties. So it's almost like having more family. You could feel like you have more aunts and uncles that will feed you all the time because that is the way they show love, right?  Isabel: Oh, certainly. I think there's so many stories in multicultural places like Alhambra. And speaking of which, you did in your film Only in This World. It's about an empty nester who has to face her ex-husband's mistress in order to summon her daughter back from the afterlife, which is featured in the 2025 Silicon Valley Asian Pacific Film Festival in Sunnyvale. Congratulations on such a beautiful film. I will say that I am a huge fan of magical realism, and Only in This World has some magical elements to it. So I'd love to get to know, how did you come up with this specific plot and characters that make up this film? Dorothy: Yeah, and thank you for wanting to talk about this one. It's a special story to me just because it is, I think it's the first film that I've made where I just decided to incorporate elements of where I grew up. And so Only in This World is inspired by my mom and her Tai Chi group at our local park, so Alhambra Park. My mom would go to do Tai Chi every morning for years. And in Alhambra, actually, as I mentioned, because there are so many immigrant communities, many of the immigrant communities tend to stay together with the people who speak their language. So Chinese people usually stick together with the Chinese speakers, Spanish speakers stick together with the Spanish speakers. You don't see a lot of mingling or intersectionality. But one of the special things that I saw with my mom's Tai Chi group was that they were not just Chinese people or Asian people, but there were Latino people in their group as well. And so even though they couldn't speak the same language, they would show up and still do Tai Chi every morning because it was a matter of doing something together. And so I love that a lot. And I wanted to tell a story about just older women who are finding friendship because I think that's really important in older age and in these groups because you see that a lot of the people in these Tai Chi groups are even the ones, not just Tai Chi groups, but there are dancers in the park, you know, like you'll see them in the mornings, not just in Alhambra, but in Monterey Park, all the different parks, open spaces, they'll have little dance groups.  A lot of the people who are part of those groups happen to be seniors, and I think it's just because they don't have work, they don't have children, they're lonely. And so…I think it's really important to be aware that where friendship or loneliness is actually an epidemic in the senior community. And it's really important to providing good quality of life is to just have them have that connection with other people. And seeing that in my mom, because my mom is getting older, having her be part of that community was what kept her happier. And so, yeah, and also my mother-in-law is Colombian. And she's done Tai Chi before as well with her group in Rosemead. And so I just was like, well, I'm part of a multicultural family. I want to tell a multicultural family story. Yeah, in terms of the magical realism element, I thought a lot about just how my family, if our house has ever burned down, the things that they would take out are our photos, the print four by six, like, you know, just the print photos because they're just so precious to them. There's something about hard copy pictures that is so special that digital photos just can't take over. Like there is an actual energy to how a photo is made or even like back then when we used to use film, there's energy that's required to actually create photos. And so, you know, I wanted that to be the power that powers this magical scanner where energy is taken from the picture and then you have the ability to bring someone you love back from the afterlife. And I really love grounded magical realism because I think it just makes difficult things a lot easier to understand when you add a little bit of magic to it, a little bit of fantasy.  Isabel: Yeah, magical realism is such a special genre. What part of the production process that you find the most profound?  Dorothy: I think it was just really my gratitude in how much my family came together for me and also just like the people of this team, know, like there were, I think one major situation that I can think of that I always think is really funny was, um so we filmed at my mother-in-law's house and my husband, Diego, was also working on set with me. He is not in the film industry. He's a software engineer manager. He's like in tech, but he is one of my biggest supporters. And so…when we were like, yeah, can we film at your mom's house? He was like, okay. But he had to end up being the, quote unquote, location manager, right? Because the house was his responsibility. And then, and he was also my PA and he was also DIT. Like he would be the one dumping footage. He did everything. He was amazing. And then ah one day we found out that his neighbor was actually doing construction and they were hammering. It was like drilling stuff and making new windows. They were doing new windows. And we were just like, oh, like, how do we get them to, like, not make noise? And so, and they don't speak English. And so we were like, oh crap, you know. So like, unfortunately, my producers and I don't speak Spanish, like we're all just English speaking. And then I did have Latinos working on my set, but they, you know, they had other jobs. I wasn't going to make them translate and do all that other stuff. So then Diego so kindly went over and talked to them and was like, essentially we set up. They were totally cool about it. They were like, yeah, okay, you're making a film. then whenever you're rolling sound, we'll just like prevent, like not hammer. And then so Diego is sitting outside with a walkie and talking to the first AD and other people inside the house, because we're all filming inside. don't know what's going outside. And then so like, we would be rolling, rolling. And then um the workers, I think his name was Armando, are like…whenever we cut, Diego would hear it through the walkie and he'd be like, Armando, okay, you're good to go. You can drill. Armando would drill. And then when we're going, and we'd be like, I'm going for another take. And then Diego would be like, Armando, please stop. So it was so nice of them to be willing to accommodate to us. Because you hear a lot of horror stories of LA productions where neighbors see you're filming something and they'll purposely turn on the radio to make it really loud and you have to pay them off and whatever. And in this case, it wasn't it was more like, hey, like, you know, we're making a movie and they were so supportive and they're like, yeah, totally. This is so cool. We will definitely pause our work, our actual work and let you roll down during the brief period. So we're really grateful. We definitely brought them donuts the next day to thank them. But that was just something that I was like, oh yeah, like I don't think I could have pulled that off if I didn't have Diego or if the fact, if it wasn't for the fact that these were the neighbors, know, that we were filming at someone's house and the neighbors already had a relationship with the people who lived here.  Isabel: Wow, that's really adaptable. And I'm so glad that went well for you. Dorothy, you've directed 13 films by now. Have you ever seen one of your films resonate with an audience member that you've interacted with in the past?  Dorothy: So there was this one short I had done a couple years ago called Tarot and it came at a time when I was struggling with the idea of whether or not I wanted to have kids and many of my friends are off having their first or second kids, you know, and so I never really wanted to be a mom, but then I have a partner who I can see being a great father, so I'm more open to the idea of being a mother, but it was still something I was conflicted about. And so I put this all into a short film, just my feelings of how my identity would change if I were to become a mom, because I've read so much about that. I found a Reddit thread one day where people were just talking about how being a mother is hard. And they openly stated how much they hated it. And it's okay to feel that way. And I wanted to put those feelings into this film to just put it out there like, hey, like if you don't like being a mom, even though you love your kid, you could still hate having that identity and be lost about, and it's okay to be lost or not sure about who you are. And so it was a really short film and it ended kind of open ended. It was like five minute film, so it didn't have like a full ending, but it was an open ended ending. And then afterwards I had a bunch of people come up. I had people who were parents, not just mothers, like even, or like fathers who had just had their first kid who were coming up and telling me like, oh, I totally identify. I understand that struggle of learning about who your new identity is after you've had a kid. And then I had people who were child free who were coming to me and saying like, yeah, this is a similar feeling that I've had about whether or not I should have any kids. Because, you know, as women, we have a biological clock that ticks. And that's something I feel frustrated about sometimes where it's really because of my body that I feel pressured to have a kid versus wanting to have one because I want one. And so that was a story I wanted to, or just something I wanted to put into a film. Yeah, and I also had another person come up and tell me that they were like, this was something I felt, but I never really openly talked about. And so I resonated a lot with this and it just helped basically articulate or helped me identify like, oh, I totally feel this way. And so that was really validating to me as a filmmaker because my goal is to reach others who don't feel comfortable talking about certain things that they tend to hide because I have a lot of those types of thoughts that I might feel ashamed or embarrassed to share. But then I put it into a story and then it makes it more digestible and it's like, or it's more, it's entertaining. But then like the core message is still there. And so people watch it and if they feel that they can connect to it, then I've done my job because I have resonated with somebody and I've made them feel seen. And that's ultimately what I wanted to do when I wanted to be a therapist was I just wanted to make people feel seen. I wanted to make them feel connected to other people and less lonely because that's something that I also have struggled with. Yeah, so filmmaking is my way of putting something small out there that I feel and then finding other people who feel the same way as me. And then we can feel validated together. Isabel: Ah yes, that is the power of film, and Dorothy's work can be viewed on her website, which I'll be linking on kpfa.org, as well as her social media, so you can get new updates on what she is working on. Dorothy, thank you so much for joining me on APEX Express today!  Dorothy: Thank you! Thank you for having me, it was so great to meet you!  Isabel: That was Dorothy Xiao, our second guest for tonight's edition of Apex Express, featuring magical realism AAPI filmmakers. Now time for our final guest of the night, Rachel Leyco, who is a queer, award-winning Filipina-American filmmaker, writer, actress, and activist. We'll be talking about her upcoming short film, Milk & Honey.  Hi Rachel, it's such an honor to have you here on APEX Express. Rachel: Hi, thank you so much for having me.  Isabel: How do you identify and what communities do you consider yourself a part of?  Rachel: Yeah, I identify as a queer Filipina-American. Isabel: So we're here to talk about your short film, Milk & Honey, which is about an ambitious Filipina nurse who leaves her family behind in the Philippines to chase the American dream in the 1990s and facing conflicts and hardships along the way. How did you come up with this specific 90s immigration story?  Rachel: Yeah. So Milk and Honey is inspired by my mom's immigrant story. you know, that's really her true story of coming to America in the early 1990s as a very young Filipina nurse while, and also a young mother and leaving behind her daughter, which was me at the time. um you know, following her journey in the film though fictionalized, a lot of the moments are true and there's a lot of exploration of assimilation, cultural barriers, loneliness and the emotional cost of pursuing the American dream.  Isabel: Yeah, when I read that synopsis, I immediately thought of this short film could totally be something that's feature length. How did you sort of this story to something that is like under 15 minutes long?  Rachel: Yeah, so I wrote the short film script first. And actually, you know, this is a proof of concept short film for the feature film. I actually wrote the feature film script after I wrote the short because there was just so much more I wanted to explore with the characters and the story. It definitely couldn't fit into a short film, though I have that short film version. But there was just so much richness to my mom's story that I wanted to explore, so I expanded into a feature. So I do have that feature film version, which I hope to make one day. Isabel: And you mentioned that this film is inspired by your mom's story. Is there any other sort of research that you did into this story that really helped you write? Rachel: Yeah, one of the main reasons I wanted to write the story, I mean, there's many reasons, but one is because there, if you ask the average American or the general public, they won't really know why there are so many Filipino nurses in the healthcare system. Because if you walk into any hospital, you'll see a Filipino nurse, more than one for sure. ah so I was really curious about the history. ah Having my mom as a nurse, my sister's also a nurse, I have a lot of healthcare workers around me. I grew up with that. I, you know, growing up, I also didn't really know or learn Filipino American history because it's not taught in schools. And I, you know, I took AP US history and didn't learn anything about, you know, my culture and our history. It's, not in the books at all. And it wasn't until like my early twenties that I was really curious about my roots and my upbringing and what it means to be Filipino-American specifically. And so um I really went into like a deep dive of just researching Filipino-American history. And specifically last year, I had been wanting to tell a story about a Filipino nurse because of my proximity to it with my mother. And you know, myself being an artist, being a filmmaker in the industry, there's so many medical shows out there, like, know, Grey's Anatomy, that's been long running, but very, very few, and rarely do we see Filipino nurses at the forefront and at the center of those stories. um You know, rarely are they series regulars. You know, sometimes they'll feature a Filipino nurse for like one episode or two and, you know, a recurring or a side character, but Filipino nurses are never the main character, never the series regular. And so that was another big driving force for why I wanted to make this story. And, you know, really making my mom's character the center of it. And so as far as like research, too, I definitely interviewed my mom and I asked her to just tell me her her entire story and specifically why she even wanted to move to the United States because she could have stayed in the Philippines or she could have moved somewhere else. um she saw a newspaper or her friend actually at the time when she was in a nursing school, a friend of hers saw an ad in the newspaper that America was sponsoring nurses. And so she had it in her mind already like, oh, yeah, I've heard of America. I've heard of the United States that it's, you know, there's better opportunities for me there. And at the time she had just had me. And so she had, you she's a young mother. She's trying to take care of her baby, her newborn. And so, you know, she had her eyes set on moving to the United States and that's kind of how her journey happened. And on top of that, I also did my own research on you know, our history, I watched this really amazing documentary um by Vox. It's on YouTube. It's all about why there are so many Filipino nurses in America. And it really just ties back to U.S. colonization. And after World War II, was so many, there was big nursing shortage in the United States. you know, white Americans did not want to, you know, fill that role. So they turn to Filipino women to fill the gap.  Isabel: Yeah, was there something special about the production process that looking back, you would want to replicate in the future or that really speaks to you?  Rachel: Absolutely. um Yeah, mean, definitely this experience and a lot of the people that I brought on to this project, I want to continue to make films with them and continue to make art with them because um I'm just so proud of the team that we put together. Everyone was so passionate and they knew how important the story was. They also had their own special connection to the material that they brought so much heart and passion into the film. that really comes through in the project. so like a lot of the people I brought onto this film, I want to continue to make art with them forever. That's one thing that I'm really, really grateful for, because I got to work with some really awesome people that I had never worked before or I had been wanting to work with. And so it was such a great opportunity that was given to me to be able to connect with such amazing and talented AAPI creatives in my circle.  Isabel: Yeah, I saw on your Instagram page for the film that you shot this film in both Los Angeles and Austin, Texas. Have you ever done a production where you had to sort juggle two different sets in two very different locations? And how was that entire process?  Rachel: Yeah, that was really, it was really fun. It was my first time being able to film in two different cities, let alone like two different states, really. A lot of my past projects have just been, you know, shooting it with the resources that I had that were available to me. You know, usually like my past short film, Thank You for Breaking My Heart, that I did last year, we shot all of it in one location, which was of course like, know, that is something that's really impressive in and of itself, of course. But, you know, because of the bigger budget that we had for Milk and Honey, I really wanted to challenge myself with this. And I really advocated for filming a part of the film in Texas because it is set in Texas. I was raised there. That's where my mom was placed when she, because how the process goes is, you know, she applied for the nursing sponsorship and then they placed them in certain areas. And so she was placed in El Paso, Texas at the time. And so that's where I also grew up. So I set the film there and I really advocated for filming in Texas because I wanted the film to have that feeling of the environment and atmosphere of Texas. um And so we shot some exteriors there for like this really fun Texas montage where you can really like feel that the character is there in, you know, in that heat, the Texas heat. So that was really, that was really fun. And I, you know, we shot, we shot two days in LA and we shot half a day in Austin, Texas. And we hired a second unit in Texas, because, you know, again, like, even though we had a really good budget, was still, you know, it was still pretty small. So I wasn't able to, you know, fly my LA crew over there. um So what we did was we just hired a second unit crew in Austin, Texas, and they were amazing. And most of them were queer, non-binary filmmakers. And it was just such a fun, intimate crew that you know, we just breezed by and had such a great time shooting that.  Isabel: That's wonderful. As a director, what inspires you and what are some of your filmmaking influences?  Rachel: Yeah, I mean, I'm constantly inspired by, you know, new films, filmmakers that I've seen, em particularly for Milk and Honey. I um so the film is, you know, this grounded drama, but there are a lot of moments of magical realism that I mix into it. love magical realism. love one of my favorite movies is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. It's such a beautiful film, also very grounded, but it's filled with all of this, you know, magical realism, surrealism. And so I infused that into, you know, Milk and Honey, which was really fun and a challenge to execute. But yeah, and some other filmmakers and creatives that I'm inspired by are Ava Duvernay. think her work is just incredible and also just an incredible artist overall. I love the kind of work that she does because it comes from such a deep place. And I love that she can combine art with politics and social justice as well. Isabel: I also love that you said in your one of your project funding descriptions that you use your art as your act of revolution, which is so relevant given that, you know, in our current state of, you know, our administration is silencing and suppressing voices of our immigrant communities. And how do we as filmmakers, as artists, what does that revolution and representation mean to you as a filmmaker and artist?  Rachel: I truly believe that that art is our act of revolution and just merely creating the art is that act in and of itself. We don't have to do more than that as from, in my opinion, as an artist, because the mere fact of us existing as artists, existing, myself existing and creating the work and having the work exists out there and putting it out. The most powerful thing that an artist can do is to make their art and share it with the world. And after that, just let it go, you know, forget about how it's going to be received. Forget about like, you know, the critics and, and, and the, you know, self doubt you may have and all of those things, because yeah, it's going to come. I think especially in the landscape of, like you said, of where we're at right now with our current administration and you know, just who knows what's going to happen in the next few years, but also in the face of like AI and technology and all of that, I think all we can really do as artists is to, in order for us to change the system is we have to be the change, right? And in order for us to be that change is just to continue to tell our stories and stay authentic to ourselves. Because I think that's also what a lot of people out there are really craving right now. People are craving authentic, real stories by people that we really don't get to see or hear their stories very often. And so um that for me is something that fuels me and my artistry every day.  Isabel: Very well said and a great reminder to all of us artists out there to keep making our art. What do you hope for audiences to take away when they watch your film?  Rachel: What I hope for audiences to get out of watching the film, well, one, at the core of it is a mother-daughter story. And I also did it to honor my mother and her sacrifices and her story. So I hope that, one, audiences will, you know, maybe reflect on their relationship with their mother and… um think of ways to honor their mother and their family and their ancestry as well. And another thing is to really think about what the American dream means to you, because that was another driving force for me with the film is it's called Milk & Honey because a lot of immigrants coined Milk & Honey as America's milk and honey as this like land of abundance, land of opportunity and you know, this is a, this is a place for creating a better life for ourselves. But I, for me, as I've grown up and as an adult now, really looking at like, well, what does the American dream mean to me? Is that still true to me? Do I still think the U S is a place where I can, where I can build a better life? Is it a place of abundance and something in the film, a big theme in the film is where Cherry's character scrutinizes that dream and thinks for herself, like, is the American dream worth it? And what does the American dream actually mean to me? What is the definition of that? So I think that's a big thing I would love audiences to also take away from it, you know, asking themselves that question. Isabel: That's a great thought to end on. I'll be including Rachel's social media and website on kpfa.org as usual so you can see if Milk and Honey will be screening in a film festival near your city during its festival run. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for joining me on APEX Express today. Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. Please check our website kpfa.org to find out more about magical realism in AAPI stories and the guests we spoke to. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting. Keep organizing. Keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Cheryl Truong, and Isabel Li. Tonight's show was produced by me, Isabel Li. Thanks to the team at KPFA for their support. Have a great night. The post APEX Express – 1.08.26 – Magical Realism and AAPI Short Films appeared first on KPFA.

Happy New Year, everyone! Today, we're taking a look back at 2025 to see (for us) which K-Dramas were hits, which were misses, and what scenes from our favorite dramas of the year still live rent free in our minds. K-Pop Recs of the Year:"What it Sounds Like" by Huntrix (Ejae, Rei Ami, & Audrey Nuna)"Background" by Jin"Killin' It Girl" by J-Hope (feat. GloRilla)"CHEST" by JUST BReady to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

In this episode, we delve into the intricate world of the Chicago Outfit’s informants, featuring insights from my late friend, Cam Robinson, and Paul Whitcomb, a well-respected expert on the mob. This special compilation draws from past interviews and shorts that once highlighted various informants who operated during the notorious 1980s era of organized crime in Chicago. Through a series of concise segments, we explore the lives of key players who chose to turn against the Outfit, revealing the complex motivations and consequences of their decisions. We kick things off by revisiting the tale of Paul “Peanuts” Pansko, an influential figure leading the Polish faction of the Outfit. Pansko's criminal activities, including a racetrack heist, not only placed him in dangerous territory but also set into motion a chain of events that would later link to the infamous Family Secrets trial. It's during this journey that we outline how interconnected the informants’ narratives are, showcasing how Pansko’s actions inadvertently unraveled parts of the organization.   The discussion shifts to more dramatic stories, including Mario Rainone. Rainone's infamous decision to cooperate with the authorities opened the door to significant revelations about Lenny Patrick, one of the highest-ranking Outfit members to switch sides. Rainone's tapes ultimately led to the dismantling of major sections of the Outfit’s operations, including political connections that had long shielded them from legal repercussions.   We also explore the tale of Ken “Tokyo Joe” Eto, a Japanese mobster who thrived within the Outfit’s ranks. His attempts at self-preservation after surviving an assassination effort highlighted the stark realities faced by those who navigated the perilous landscape of organized crime. As he eventually became a witness for the prosecution, Eto’s insights illuminated the internal workings of one of Chicago’s most feared organizations. The episode further examines dramatic betrayals and deadly encounters that shaped the Outfit’s legacy. From the chilling events surrounding the murders of the Spilotro brothers, orchestrated by their own associates for reasons steeped in loyalty and betrayal, to the grim fate that met informants like Al Toco and the impact of domestic discord on organized crime, each tale is a window into the bleak realities faced by both mobsters and informants alike. As we round out the episode, we reflect on the cultural dynamics surrounding informants, particularly how personal relationships and family ties heavily influenced their decisions to cooperate. It becomes clear through the interviews that while fear of retribution often compels loyalty, the specter of betrayal looms large within the mob. This multifaceted examination blends personal stories with historical context, providing a deeper understanding of the Chicago Outfit’s complexity and its operatives. Join us in this retrospective journey through the shadows of organized crime as we pay homage to those who bravely shared their stories, revealing the inner workings of a criminal empire that continues to fascinate and terrify in equal measure. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Well, hey, guys, after listening to Bob Cooley, one of the more damaging sources and witness and informant to the Chicago Outfit outside of the Calabrese family, [0:13] Nick and his nephew, Frank Jr., I got the rest of the Chicago Outfit informants on tap here. No, not really. They’re not coming in. But I did do a story. I did a series of shorts a few years, or I don’t know, two or three years ago, maybe. [0:32] I interviewed my late friend, Cam Robinson, rest in peace, Cam. So you get to hear from him again. And Paul Whitcomb, who is a Chicago outfit expert, he’s been on this. They used to have some kind of a round table show up there. I don’t know if they still have it or not with the Seiferts. But anyhow, I got these guys to sit down with me and talk about all the different informants in Chicago during the, it was during the 80s. So this is just kind of a series of shorts that I put up before. They’re six or eight minutes long, I think, each one of them, that they talk about different informants. This kind of threw it together as another little bonus episode we’ve done. And I went to Chicago, if you notice, after Johnny Russo, which I apologize for in a way, I don’t know. I mean, the guy’s got some crazy-ass stories, doesn’t he? Who am I to say that he didn’t do it? But most people know that he didn’t do most of that stuff. Anyhow, so I threw up another Chicago right away about the guy that had the race wire that they killed, James Reagan. [1:38] Then i had this interview that i’d been doing during those last couple weeks with bob cooley who’s appeared uh out of nowhere and he’ll maybe see him on some other shows now he’s he’s wanting to do shows he tells me so after hearing bob cooley talk i thought well i’m doing do one more i want to just throw it up as an extra uh from some of my old chicago outfit stuff and that’ll finish me off on the Chicago outfit for a while. I hadn’t, I hadn’t been in Chicago, uh, doing shows about Chicago for quite a while. And, and I didn’t want to, uh, neglect you guys. You know, I get a lot of books written about New York and I’ve got all these authors that are wanting to do these books about New York. Uh, not so much about Chicago. So if you got anybody that, you know, wants to, got a book and wants to come on the show, uh, talking about the outfit, why steer them to me. So anyhow, just sit back and relax and enjoy. [2:37] My late, great friend, Cam Robinson. One more look at Cam, for those of you who remember him, and Paul Whitcomb. And we’re going to talk about famous snitches from Chicago. Thanks, guys. Well, let’s move along now to, this is kind of interesting, Paul Peanuts Panczko, who was the leader of the Polish branch of the outfield. Is that what you would call Peanuts Panczko, the leader of the Polish branch? If the Polish branch is the Panczko family, which you could easily say there were three brothers, then yeah, that wouldn’t be right. We haven’t really done a show on them. I don’t know a whole lot about them other than they were released at all. So we said non-Italian, Peckerwood, as we call them at Kansas City, professional criminals who did a lot of business with different outfit people. And he did a robbery of a racetrack. I think it’s the Balmoral Racetrack. It’s the name of it. James Duke Basile and then Panczko was in trouble for that and he convinced Basile to come in and they did some talking remember anything about that situation, you know in a lot of ways you. [3:50] Panczko could be considered one of the first dominoes that eventually led to the Family Secrets trial. Panczko, as you said, led to Dookie Bazile, who they had done robberies together. Bazile led them to Scarpelli, who was a much higher guy. I mean, there’s debate, but he was, because there was a making ceremony at this time, but Scarpelli was pretty highly ranked. I mean, he was a known killer, and he was up there. He was in the wild bunch. But Scarpelli then did tell them about a lot of the things that Frank Calabrese had done. [4:28] He wasn’t known as well as Scarpelli had brought him up to be. And a lot of those things dominoed into what would eventually lead to family secrets years later. [4:42] Scarpelli, I think, did not know so much about Nick, but he did know about Frank. And so a lot of that information sort of filled in the gaps. And even though Frank Calabrese Jr. Led them led them to Nick They A lot of seeds were planted And can be traced back to Pianus Pansico Um. [5:01] So it is kind of an interesting line. Basile, he wore a wire on Scarpelli and not even talking about a lot of these things. It’s not the FBI knew about that. They were in a car together. Right. If I remember right, he even talked about a mob graveyard. They went up there and they found two or three bodies. One of them was connected. It wasn’t anybody really important, but one of them was connected to Harry Aleman. So it was a pretty important wearing of a wire on Scarpelli, who then came at himself for a while. And that’s what led to the family secrets. He talked about Frank Calabrese. Is that what you’re saying? Yeah, that’s right. And some of those bodies in that graveyard were 10 years apart, which was interesting. I’ve got, it’s on the map that I created, but some of those bodies, there was years in between them. So it was something they were going back to and they believed that there were a lot of things there they did not find. Yeah, because they built a health care facility or something. They built some big building over where there would have been bodies. Right. Right. And the fascinating thing about this is Scarpelli, like, just like Cam said, this guy was a serious killer. He was a muscle builder. He was a terrifying guy. I mean, he had almost inhuman physical strength. Yeah. And when he flipped, he was completely debriefed by the FBI and the DOJ and then decided to try and change his mind. [6:27] But before he could do that He hung himself in the bathroom Of the Metropolitan Correctional Center With his hands behind his back And a bag over his head, Who was he in prison with? Who was he in MCC with, Paul? Was it anybody? He did happen to be in the MCC with the German at the time. He bound his hands behind his back and put a bag over his own head. He did. He did. And so the outfit continues to somehow persuade people to take their own lives rather than testify against them. [7:07] It’s a hell of a way to die by suicide it is by suicide at least they didn’t have arrows in his back, not as far as we know yeah it was terrible he cut his own head off I saw a cartoon once that the homicide guy liked to go ahead and maybe real suckle of suicide because then you could just walk away from it so there’s a dead body laying there with a bunch of arrows at his back and a homicide detective standing over him with a hand and pencil and says, hmm, suicide, huh? [7:44] Got the inside joke. It worked homicide. You see how those guys sometimes will try to make something into a suicide that probably is a homicide. On the other hand, we had one, we had a mob guy, he wasn’t really a mob associate, who had gone to Vegas. He lost a lot of money and they found his body in his car at the airport parking lot after coming back from Vegas and they found out later lost a lot of money and the car was parked up against the fence and he was shot in the head and there was no gun in the car you know found so just assume that somebody shot him in his head the car kept going and rolling up against the fence. [8:25] But this one detective, I remember Bob Pence is his name. He was dumb. And he started, he went back over and he dusted that car for prints again. And he got some more evidence out of it. And then he went back to the airport and he looked and started asking questions. And he found out later that somebody who had a pickup truck parked there had a week later, three or four days later, come back and got his truck. When he got home he found a pistol inside the bed of his truck and he called the airport or he called somebody turned it in Pinson found that pistol that was a pistol that that shot the guy so Pinson's theory was he was rolling along in his car he shot himself in the head and then he flipped that pistol out is with a reaction he flipped it out and went in the bed in that pickup and then it rolled on up against the fence and they ruled it a suicide wow damn that’s not that different than Scarpelli I mean the fbi to this day insists it was suicide yeah well, Oh, well, right. All right. Let’s move along to Mario. John, the arm. Rainone. [9:41] Is that correct, Cam? That yeah, that’s Rainone. Yeah. So tell us about that. I know we talked about this, you know, a little bit about this one. [9:50] This is kind of a funny one. He was he was sent to kill a building inspector. Raynaud was with the Grand Avenue crew and so he’s en route to kill this guy and this is one of those mob blunders and he sees a couple guys following him and it’s Rudy Fredo and Willie Messino and he recognizes him when he’s driving over there and it’s important to point out who these guys are, Cam, not to interrupt you Willie Messino, was the right hand man and bodyguard for Tony Accardo for 30 years I mean, he was serious, serious business. Rudy Frayto, you know, the chin, but Massino was serious news. If you saw Willie Massino, you knew he were in for trouble. Yeah, he wasn’t there as backup to do anything except clean up after Rainone, including Rainone. So Rainone saw the writing on the wall. He pulls up and he goes straight to the FBI. [10:54] And he informs, he talks to them and gives them his information. And later on, he sort of regrets doing so, denies that he ever did. Uh, there were, there were, uh, articles written about him. There’s a, there’s a Chicago Tribune writer, John Cass, and Ray Nolan had a back and forth with him writing letters. This is how these mob guys in Chicago operate, talking about, I’m, I ain’t no beefer. And, uh. Once he was out of prison in 2009, he was busted several more times. If you can believe it, he stayed in the criminal life. He was robbing a liquor store with another guy. And the guy he was robbing with, this is why I jump ahead a little bit, was a guy named Vincent Forliano. He claimed that he didn’t even know Fratto or Messino. These were guys he didn’t know, so he never would have informed against them. The guy he was robbing the liquor store with and he was committing other robberies with, Vincent Forliano, was Fredo’s son-in-law. [11:56] So he was committing robberies with a guy related to the guy, but he didn’t know who they were. And to say that somebody didn’t know, as Paul said, Willie Messino, is just ludicrous. Anybody in the criminal atmosphere, period, knew who Willie Messino was because you were probably paying money to it. to exist. And this is extremely important because Rainone, at the time this happened, Rainone cooperated long enough to record conversations with Lenny Patrick. That’s right. That’s right. And that set dominoes in place that would lead to the fall of the outfit. Even though he tried to take back his cooperation, to say he never cooperated, I’ve heard those tapes that were played in trials that I participated in, so I I know better. Uh, and that’s why they call him Mario flip flop Rainone because he, uh, would cooperate and uncooperate and then cooperate. But he is the one who got Lenny Patrick on the hook. Yeah. [13:00] Interesting, interesting. Let’s just continue on with this Lenny Patrick because we weren’t going to talk about him. That’s a good lead hand to talk about another, really one of the most important informants that year who testified. [13:13] Can you talk about the domino that led to the end? Rainone really, really flipped the domino that kicked over. Go ahead, Paul. Well, Lenny Patrick was the highest, and even to this day, remains the highest ranking member of the outfit to ever turn state’s evidence. The guy was a capo in all but name. He had been in charge of Rogers Park, the gambling. He was essentially the head of the Jewish arm of the mafia, kind of the Meyer Lansky figure of Chicago. And when the Lawndale neighborhood moved north to Rogers Park, he moved with them, and he had his own crew. He reported directly to Gus Alex, who was, of course, at the very top, and Sam Carlisi. And he was dealing with Marcello and Carlesi in a number of different outfit ventures, loan sharking. He personally had been staked by Carlesi with a quarter million in cash to put out on the street. And he was involved in extortions Bombings of theaters All these things directly at the command of Sam Carlisi Who was then the boss of bosses of the Chicago outfit So when Rainone got him on tape They set up what was the beginning of the end for the outfit And I think people need to understand who Gus Alex is also For people outside of Chicago Gus Alex was. [14:40] Basically, I guess you could call him the equivalent of maybe the consigliere in Chicago. When you look at Chicago, the triumvirate in the 70s, once a guy like Paul Ricca died and several major outfit leaders died in the early 70s. [14:58] Tony Accardo decided that the outfit would be led by himself, by Joy Iupa, and the political wing and all of the non-Italians and all of the grift and a lot of aspects would be led by Gus Alex. So he was essentially on the same level as Joey Iupa, and he was responsible for much more for things of greater import than Joey Iupa. I mean, controlling the political arm and all the payoffs and all of that is much, much more than the streets and the murders. So all the politics and all the anything that had to do was definitely fell under gus alex and he was part of a ruling triumvirate he was a non-italian part of a ruling triumvirate with iupa and uh acardo so he was the the leader top of the outfit and he had been for years going back to going back to the 30s and the 40s 40 he had come up under, the Murray the Camel Humphreys and had made those connections he was the most connected guy in the Chicago outfit, so for a guy like Lenny Patrick to be. [16:15] Rollover against is essentially the political leader, national political leader and political leader of Chicago. This was absolutely crippling to the outfit. That was he wiped out the entire political arm of the Chicago outfit. After Lenny Patrick brought down Gus Alex, this became a basically a street crime organization. It was that those political contacts. I mean, I think that’s a fair statement, right, Paul? Those political contacts and judges, I mean, that was all but eliminated with Gus Alex going away. You’re absolutely right, Cam. And he not only took out Gus Alex, but he took out the boss of the Italians, too. That’s right, yeah. Both of them at the same time. He wiped out the outfit, and you put it beautifully by saying it became a street crime organization. You think about the division of labor and it started with IUP and IUP and. [17:19] La Pietra, Jackie Cerone, they had all the gambling, a lot of the sports gambling, but they also had the skim from Las Vegas, and they ran all that stuff, while Gus Alex, along with Lenny Patrick, ran all that politics, and you can’t have a mob organization if you don’t have cover politically. That’s why even in Kansas City, we’re pretty clean here, but we still never had any real mob prosecutions. [17:47] And it certainly had very few, if any, little, if any mob prosecutions at Cook County. And you couldn’t even get convicted of a real crime, murder, assault, or something. It’s just a straight-out crime. You weren’t even trying to do a RICO, I think, on anybody. So it was, you know, they just operated with impunity. Well, you took out that whole gambling side. That was all the money coming in. And then shortly thereafter, you take out the political side, who then turns back and gets the new boss on the gambling side and loan sharking and all that. [18:23] I’ll tell you, by 1990, the outfit’s gone. It really is. It still exists to a degree, but Sam Carlisi was the last traditional old line boss of the outfit. you, that, in my opinion, that ever ruled. After that, it was never the same. Yeah, I think a guy like Gus Alex, you know, like you said, Gary, you had Aiuppa who was dealing with gambling, but I think that’s a lot of, there’s a lot of optics to that, you know, and you’ve got all these cities who have got characters who are not Italian, Gus Alex in Chicago, and, you know, as Paul said, Meyer Lansky, who was New York, and you had Mashie Rockman in Cleveland, and these characters not italians so they know when to step back and let and let the italians talk but that doesn’t mean that they’re not running things it’s just for the optics of city to city where the italians have to see that they’re dealing with italians they don’t walk in the room it doesn’t mean that behind the scenes they’re not pulling the levers they just because of of the uh uh criminal um. [19:34] The the criminal view of of non-italians in that world sort of sort of their own prejudices these guys don’t always walk in the room when they’re dealing with other cities gus alex is is sitting down with anybody in chicago but you go to kansas city you go to new york, you know meyer lansky would leave the room when they were when they were talking you know italian to Italian. And the same thing with Gus Alex or Mace Rockman or any of those other guys who are not Italian. It was just an optics city to city. It doesn’t mean that they weren’t pulling the levers. Is it Yehuda or Jehuda, Cam? Jehuda. I’ve always heard of Jehuda. Yeah, Jehuda. So he kind of dealed with the IRS that year. [20:23] He must have had some. The IRS was really strong working the mob in Chicago. I’ve noticed several references to IRS investigations. We did not have that in Kansas City, and the IRS did a little bit, but they were not as strong as they were up in Chicago. [20:38] Yeah, he met with an agent, Tom Moriarty, who’s been around and worked Chicago for a long time. He was a pretty well-known guy up here. But Bill Jehota worked under Ernest Rocco Infelice, who was a real powerhouse going back a long time. And out in Cicero, and his crew, a lot of these crews had their own little names, and they called the good shit Lollipop. He was a huge gambling enterprise, you know. And they bought a house up in Lake County, which is north of the city. It’s funny, this house they bought was actually the family that had lived in it. The son had murdered the family. It was a murder house before the outfit bought it. and uh they bought it used it as a as a gambling den and and after that moved out they used it for prostitution and they would park cars at a nearby motel that they ran and then then have a uh a, valet service that drove him to this this gambling house and there was also quite a few uh murders that uhJahoda witnessed i’m sure he took no part in it he just happened to be standing outside of the house when they when they these murders were committed there was a uh was it hal smith and um. [21:57] Oh i can’t remember the they killed somebody else in this home and they burnt these were guys who didn’t want to pay his tree tags, and they were gamblers who refused to give in. And he brought down this entire crew. I mean, Rocco and Felice was… There’s a famous picture of the day after the Spolatros were killed. And it was really the upper echelon of the up that you’ve got. You’ve got little Jimmy Marcello. You’ve got the boss, Sam Wings-Carlesi. You’ve got the street boss, Joe Ferriola. And you’ve got Rocco and Felice, who’s right there. These are the four top guys, basically, in the outfit as far as at this time, the Cicero crew had risen to the top. That was the powerhouse crew. And so he was involved in those discussions because he was such a powerhouse out there with Ferriola being the street boss. So he was, it really can’t be thatJahodatestimony that eventually brought down this crew was really, it really crippled that crew for a long time. Well, those people that went down in that trial have only in the last five years come out of prison. Yeah, we’ve actually had been talking to somebody. We’ve had the… [23:13] Opportunity to meet he brought down uh uh robert um to go beat um bellavia and another guy who doesn’t like to be mentioned who runs a pretty successful pizza pizza chain up in lake county and uh these guys went down for a long time the beat was down for 25 years and he just came out. [23:39] So and billJahoda have if you read his testimony it is kind of kind of odd that he was standing outside of the building and just looked in the window and they were committing a murder and he just he he places himself outside of the house witnessing a murder through the window which is convenient when you’re the one testifying against murderers it certainly is yeah. [24:03] So so that was he was involved in the gambling so that makes sense then the irs got him and millions of dollars millions of dollars a month they were bringing and he met uh, i don’t remember paul and you did he he contacted moriarty right or did moriarty reach out to him because he was under investigation i i thought Jahoda was was worried about himself so he reached out to them i can’t remember the details i think you’re right yeah i i think he was worried about his own his own safety gary and he reached out to moriarty and they met up at a hotel just outside the city on the uh up in the northwest and uh they talked about things i actually found the location and on the little map you can find where where they met each other but he they met each other in disgust and they would meet different locations and and jahuda wore a wire and some of those some of those wiretaps are they really make for that. [25:05] That those conversations come right out of the movie just i love what we’re doing out here and i love my job and and you actually where i’m going to make you trunk music i mean you really hear these things that that you see it right in the movies i mean you you can’t write the dialogue that these guys are actually using it’s it’s it’s you know it it comes straight out of a book i mean You’ve got, you’ve got, uh, this is the toughest dialogue you’ll ever hear. Interesting. How’d you buy it? Where’d you find that at? Is that, uh, it’s probably not the audio in probably anywhere. No book or something. Yeah. You can, if you look up, if you look up different, different, you know, you go on newspapers.com or you go in different, uh, I believe, uh, I’ve got, um, uh, mob textbook by, um, Howard Abedinsky. I’ve got a couple of copies of his, of his textbook, organized crime. And he’s got some clips of it. This guy who owns a pizza shop up north is talking about how he loves his job. He loves what he does. And it’s funny to hear he talk about smashing somebody and loving what you do. Really? I’ve heard a few conversations like that back at the station house. [26:25] I don’t care. It’s on both sides. Is that what you’re saying? When you live in that world. Those guys can go either direction. [26:37] Well, let’s talk about ex-Chicago cops. Speaking of cops, let’s talk about, Vince Rizza, his daughter actually appeared on that Chicago Mob Housewives, or they tried to do a show. And Frank Schweiss’ daughter was on it. And Pia Rizza, who has gotten some notoriety as a model or something, I can’t remember. And she really, she was tight. She would not talk about her dad at all. I read an interview of her. She would just talk about her dad at all. But he came in and he testified against Harry Aleman, of all people, and linked him to the murder of this bookie, Anthony Ritlinger. Remember that one? [27:22] Go ahead, Paul. No, that one I’m not very up on, Cam. I’m sorry. So, Ritlinger, I believe he didn’t want to pay his street tax, if I’m right, Gary. Yeah, you’re right. He had been warned. Rattlinger had been warned that he needs to pay, he needs to pay, and he was making a good deal of money. And Ratlinger was he was brought in just the normal course of action with the wild bunch because he was a wild bunch murder I’m a little rusty but here it comes so he was a wild bunch killing, he was brought in he was warned it was the typical Harry Ailerman and if I’m remembering correctly and people correct me if I’m not it was Butch Petruccelli they sat him down. [28:11] Usually it would be Butch and, um, uh, Borsellino who would do the talking, uh, Tony Borsellino, and they would do the talking. And then afterwards, Butch Petruccelli would just sit down and glare. So he was a pretty scary guy. And he had that, uh, uh, Malocchio, the, the evil eye, and he would just glare at people. And that would send the message and Rattlinger didn’t, didn’t listen. He was making too much money, he’s not going to pay any damn Degos, that kind of line. And so he, of course, fell victim to these guys. And I believe he may have been trunk music. I think I remember this one, Matt, but I can’t remember. Yeah, I got this one. He went to a restaurant. That’s right. That’s right. And he had already, his daughter lived with him. I’m not sure about the wife, but he had warned his family to take all kinds of extra cautious. He knew something was coming. And it was, you know, after reading that thing, it’s, It’s kind of like, well, we talked about Spilotro taking off their jewelry. Ken Eto did this similar kind of a thing and told his wife he may not be coming back. [29:22] I tell you, another guy that did the same thing was Sonny Black. That’s right. It came out about Joe Pistone, the Donnie Brasco story. He did the same thing. He went to a sit-down or a meeting, and he took off his jewelry, I believe left his billfold, when he went to the meeting. this. Ken Eto was the same way. Ken Eto, I think, thought he could talk his way out. I think all of them thought they could talk their way out of it. So Rettlinger went out by himself and sat in a prominent place in this local restaurant that was really well known up there in the north side. It’s north of downtown Chicago, and I can’t remember the name of it. [30:02] And he just sat there and pretty soon a car pulls up and two guys run in kind of like a Richard Cain kind of a deal and just start popping. And that was a Harry Aleman deal. That’s right. He did, I believe. There’s an old guy who married the girlfriend of Felix Adlericio, I believe. He and this woman are sitting out in front of their brownstone, and Aleman and some other dude pull out and get out when guys walk up to him and shoot him and kill him. [30:31] And so that was – Yeah, that was Petrocelli and Aleman walked up, And he had been, he had been dating, uh, uh, Aldericio’s, Alderico’s girlfriend. Now that’s the famous hit from beyond the grave. Because we’re going to go on the old Samuel’s just sitting in the lawn chair thinking he’d got it made. That’s right. You know, Gary, you and I did the show on the outfit, uh, a long time ago. No, I’m sorry. On the wild bunch, a long time ago. So a lot of those, and they did so much work back in the day. A lot of those run together, but yeah, you’re now, uh, now that you’re right, writing her was he was eating in a restaurant. I’m, Uh, I can’t remember the name. It may have been, been Luna’s, but he was, went out in public. He thought he’d be safe. And like you said, a lot of these guys have a six cents because they come up on the street and they know these things. And, uh, like a guy like Sammy and Reno knew it was coming. He was dodging them for a long time, but they, they know that their time is coming. Eventually they just, they stay ahead of it for a while and figure they can fight their way out or talk their way out. And yeah, they, he was blown away right in public. Like it was similar to the, I remember it being similar to the, to the Richard Cain murder. And this was in, it was right around the same time. It was, it was in the mid seventies, 75, 74, 75, 76. It might’ve been 75 that writing or happened right, right in the middle of the restaurant. [31:58] I’ve been a lot cheaper to pay the street tax, I reckon. You know, and it wasn’t, I don’t recall that they’re asking for so much, but once these murder started happening yeah i think it was it wasn’t like it was half or 75 i think they just wanted it was you know it might have been a quarter it might have just been a flat fee across the board but once that street tax was was instituted i mean we’ve talked about this before gary that was when the wild bunch was out there that was that was they really didn’t play around When Ferriola told these guys, get everybody in line, [32:31] they really cracked down and they weren’t playing at all. You pay or you die. And guys like Alem and Patrick Shelley, whether it was right in public or whatever, in the outfit in the 70s, Paul, you know this from Richard Cain and several others. They just write in public would just blow you away. and writing her was just was almost textbook just like the Richard Cain it was it was right in the right in the restaurant yeah I’ll tell you I’ll tell. [33:05] I was conflating him with Hal Smith. Okay. I’ll tell you something about those mob hits. When they kill somebody in public like that in a public way, more than likely it’s because whoever the victim is has been alerted, and they can’t get anybody to get close to them. They will already try to send somebody around to get them isolated, and when they can’t get them isolated, then they want them bad enough. They’ll just lay, as Frank Calabrese, I heard him say once, well, lay on them. And I thought, oh, that’s interesting. Well, lay on them. I read that somewhere else. They use that term when you’re following somebody and you’re trying to set them up, or yet they lay on them. Calabrese even said, you know, you’re like, get an empty refrigerator box and hide inside of it. I mean, it’s just like the kind of stuff we used to do at the intelligence unit to run surveillances on people. And so they’ll lay on them for a while until they can get you somewhat isolated. And if they can’t, then they’ll just take you out in public. It might be to send a message, but I don’t think so because it’s so risky to get somebody in public. You can have a young, all-fitty cop in there that you didn’t even notice, and he comes out blazing. And, you know, it’s just not worth it. Even if you take him out, he’s probably got to get you. [34:21] So it’s kind of a last resort. A desperation. Yeah, it’s desperation because they can’t get you isolated. [34:28] You look at some of these public murderers, guys like Richard Cain or Ridinger, like you said, who was on the watch. Sam Annarino, who was right on Cicero. [34:39] A guy like Chris Carty, who was years later. I mean, these are guys who would have been smart enough and street smart enough to be on the watch, to watch their step, to know what was going on. With the exception of a guy like Michael Cagnoni, who just happened to be difficult to get, and he probably might have had an idea that something was happening, but I think just he was a family guy, and so it was hard to isolate. They blew him up on the interstate, but I think that in general, that’s a good point, Gary. These guys, if they just run up and blow away, it’s just a last resort. That’s an excellent point. I have always been in that camp of, oh, that must be sending a message. But you, with your experience, I think you’re exactly right. One thing, guys, I think we’re mixing up Sambo Cesario with Sam Annarino. I was thinking when they – yeah, you’re right, Paul. I was thinking, though, when they blew away Sam Annarino in the parking lot with his family, though, they had been trying to get him for several months. And they finally just went after him in the parking lot, called in a robbery, and blew him away in the furniture store parking lot. That was what I meant. Yeah, Gary was referring to Sambo earlier. I just meant they had been trying to get Sam Annarino for a long time, and when they couldn’t, they just got him in the parking lot. [36:08] Well, interesting. You know, no matter how much terror these guys strike in the heart of their underlings, in the end, they still will turn once in a while. And I think people don’t really not turn because they’re afraid of getting killed so much if they don’t turn because they don’t want to have their family suffering the disgrace of them being a rat or a snitch. I think that’s more important to be a man and go out like a man in this subculture and believe me I’ve lived in a subculture where being a man and being a tough guy is more important than anything else, I think that’s the most important thing that keeps people from coming in you’re like a wimp you’re a puss, you can’t take it, can’t handle it you know what I mean you can’t handle five years I could do five years standing on my head or a tray like the dude told me so uh you know but even even with all that and still there’s a certain percentage that will end up coming in sure and usually there are people that either don’t care about their family like lenny patrick yeah or that don’t have close family so that they don’t have it so much of that pressure that you’re talking about gary because you make a really valid point that that that cultural value is so strong yeah yeah it’s it’s. [37:36] In a lot of these small towns, you see in Detroit where they’re all family tied in and everything, you don’t see informants. I think they’ve had one. Kansas City, as you said, Gary, you don’t see. But then you look at a place like Rochester where they’re all just lower tier mob guys. Everybody was informing on everybody because they really weren’t as upper echelon sort of mob guys. So I think that, like you said, once you get that culture seeped in, you’ve got those families and all, there’s a lot of factors. But if it’s a deep-rooted mob town, you really don’t see a lot of real informants. [38:11] So, guys, now we’ve got one that I did a show on. I did a couple of shows on him. I talked to the FBI agent who brought him in and dealt with him for quite a while. Ken Tokiojo Eto. He survived a murder attempt. When that didn’t happen for him with the outfit, what happened after that? [38:32] I believe his attempted assassins got killed themselves. So tell me a little bit about Tokyo Joe Eto. There’s a photograph I have from the late 50s, early 60s And it shows Joe Ferriola And a couple of other heavyweights Hanging around with a young Ken Eto, And a lot of people didn’t know who Ken Eto was But he ran the Japanese game, Gambling, Bolita And lots of money Poured into the outfit through Tokyo Joe As they called him And there was a rumor that perhaps Tokyo Joe was going to turn under a little bit of pressure. And so Jasper Campisi put three slugs in the back of his head. [39:22] Miraculously, he survived three slugs at point blank range. And if he wasn’t going to turn state’s evidence before, he certainly had a powerful incentive to do so now. He seems to insist As I’ve heard that he was not His intention was not It’s hard to say at this point But he says he had no intention Of flipping and that he’s not sure What the evidence was against him But he was not going to flip until, It was Yeah. [39:55] I’m drawing a blank, Paul. Who was it that sent? It wasn’t the saint. It was Vincent Solano. He was kind of Vincent Solano, who was a union guy and a made guy up there. He kind of had which one. [40:11] He was a capo. And which crew was it? Do you remember? He was on the north side. North side crew. North side crew. And actually, Ken went to Vince Solano and had a talk with him. Said you know what i can do this he was looking at a tray i had a dude tell me what’s that pressure and tried to get him to talk and he said uh he said what am i gonna get out of this a tray he said man i can do a tray standing on my head and i threw him right then that’s right gotta talk to me so uh and that’s all he had to do but solano for some reason uh who knows what was in his head because uh ken Eto had made him a lot of money a lot of money and he was a tough little dude he had he had survived he had been put in the uh concentration camps if you will during the internment camps yeah internment camps and then came as a young man up chicago and been around for a long time by the time this all came down he’d been with him for a long time and made him a lot of money and all kinds of different gambling operations but particularly the bolita. [41:13] So uh it just didn’t make sense i heard one thing that these guys in chicago got the idea Yeah, to keep the noise down, they were loading their own rounds with lighter loads of powder. I don’t know. They had like a hit car up there. The guys in Chicago were pretty sophisticated or tried to be. And so they used these lighter loads. And when it went into his head, it just didn’t penetrate his skull. I remember I was at the hospital once, and there was a young guy who had gotten shot in the head. And they said that the bullet was not a good bullet because it went in under his skin and then went under his scalp, along his skull, and then lodged up on his forehead. [41:56] Wow. And so Eto was kind of the same way. Those bullets were probably lodged up underneath his scalp. He pulled himself to a neighboring, I believe it was a pharmacy that was right there, a corner store. And then that guy went to help him. I think he had to dial a call of 911 or whatever. 911 was in place then. He had to call for help for himself from a phone booth. You know, he saved his own life by being smart and playing dead. Yeah, that’s right. And you look at Chicago, it’s a city of neighborhoods, and you’ve got the Mexican town, and you’ve got the different towns, and you’ve got Chinatown where there’s so much money and so much gambling. And while Haneda was Japanese and there’s obviously division between Japanese and Chinese, it would be much easier for him to go in and then some of these outfit guys and because of different things going on back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. But he could go into neighborhoods and represent the outfit in ways in different communities that the outfit wouldn’t go into or a lot of these made guys. [43:12] And that gave him entry into a lot of communities. In the Asian community, there’s a lot of gambling that he was able to tap into. He was smart enough to see that as a route that maybe the Italian guys didn’t, just like Lenny Patrick, who we’ve talked about in other episodes, had that access into the Jewish communities and other Jewish gangsters. There’s a lot of gambling there. If you can get somebody who has an in to different communities, that’s really a way to go and that’s part of why he made so much money. A game like BolEto wouldn’t normally be and that’s huge in the Hispanic communities and huge with Asians also. You know in kansas city that’s interesting that you should point that out camp we had a um large vietnamese community moved in after the the boat peoples when it started and they moved in through the same church uh. [44:09] Sacred Heart Church and Don Bosco Center that the Italians moved in, the Sicilians moved into back in the turn of the century, the same neighborhoods. And Italians are getting successful and they’re moving out the suburbs and the Vietnamese are moving in and creating the Vietnamese restaurants and Vietnamese shops. And they brought, they have a love for gambling. Like you said, they have huge love for gambling. They don’t drink so much or do so many drugs, but they do love to gamble, it seemed to me like. [44:36] And so they had their own book. he was called the king a guy a friend of mine told me a story uh there’s a mob book he got on the periphery that neighborhood’s got a joint and he he was running a sports book and he had a lot of action going in and out of his joint so this one vietnamese guy had a big debt owed to the king so he goes down and talks to this guy’s name was Larry Strada, he ends up getting killed by some other uh mobsters in a deal they thought he was going to testify but i just needed to hear are there, this young, middle-aged Vietnamese guy goes down to the Caddyshack, Larry Strada’s bar. And he starts telling him about the king. He said, man, he said, the king, you take all your business. He said, he got all business down here. He take all your business. He said, you know, you need to do something about the king. He said, you know, we’re close to the river here. And then he made a motion across his throat like he was cutting his throat. So he was trying to get out of his gambling debt to convince this Italian, La Cosa Nostra bookie to go back and kill me yeah king piano. [45:42] You know i’ve heard a lot of stories and some of them are true some are not that one had to ring a truth to it it had a definite ring of truth that that got to do that playing them against each other yeah you bet and you know another thing about tokyo joe and you know he could testify But Ben Solano had Campizé and Gattuso killed right away. Found them in the trunk of their car, I think. Maybe at the airport, even. [46:09] Chicago trunk music, but they have some saying like that. And so Solano knew that they could testify against him, and they didn’t want to go down for attempted murder, more than likely, and he just didn’t take a chance. So he had them killed, and I can’t remember if he went down behind this or not. But another thing Tokyo Joe was able to do, I mean, he certainly could expose all the inner workings of what he knew about to the FBI, which gives you a lot of tips on where to go, who to work on, and maybe where to throw up microphones or some wiretaps. But he also traveled around he came to Kansas City during the skimming trial because they’re working on the Chicago hierarchy. So they just fly him into town. They show him that picture, the last separate picture where everybody’s in the picture. And they say, now, who’s that? Oh, that’s Aiuppa. Okay, then who’s that? Oh, that’s Vince Solano. Yeah, he reports to Aiuppa. You know, and who’s that guy? I can’t remember the other people at all. So the nation said that Joe is up hard. Oh, yeah, he reports to this guy. So to show the organization of the mob in Chicago and that it is an organization that gives orders to have other people carry it to make the RICO case, that he was a storyteller for that. And he didn’t know anything about the skim at all. But he was a storyteller on getting the mob name and the organization in front of a jury. That’s huge, as you know, Paul. [47:35] Absolutely. We had a similar arrangement during the Carlesi trial about how [47:40] the Carlesi crew operated and who was who, and to tell the story. Yeah. You have to make it a story. Let’s take a look at Betty Toco, which, uh, this is pretty interesting. There was a, um, I’m not sure. Albert Toco was your husband. Remind me what his position was at the outfit at that time. So Al Toco was, there’s sort of a division on who was the leadership of, who was the central leader of Chicago Heights. There’s Dominic Tuts Palermo and Al Toco, who was really a powerhouse in Chicago Heights. And Tuts Palermo was definitely highly connected and across the pond too, also in Italy. But uh Toco was involved in the in the chop shop wars really really heavily involved and he had a lot of connections in chicago too he was involved with lombardo and a lot of these chop shops throughout chicago he had a lot of partnerships and so this was a 30 million dollar a year racket stolen cars chop shops international car rings uh car rings throughout stolen car rings throughout the country. Toco was responsible for burying the Spolatro brothers. It was very sectioned off. Each crew had a part in their murder. And then Chicago Heights was responsible for the burial. [49:02] And they were down in Enos, Indiana. They got kind of turned around a little bit. They were down a farm road. They were burying them in a freshly tilled field. And the road where they’re on, there’s a little side road that you would drive down. There’s very little down there. I’ve, I’ve seen it, but a car happened to come down middle of night and they were in a, there’s a, there were a couple of feet off of a wooded area and they see this car coming down and they sort of all panicked and before they had a chance to cover the area or really do anything, it just looked like a freshly dug, it really just looked like freshly dug mound. And so they all fled and three of Toco’s guys went one way and he went the other. They had the car in both radios. [49:46] He’s wandering around barefoot, and he calls his wife finally. She shows up, and he’s screaming and yelling. And he runs to Florida, and he’s waiting for permission to come back from Joe Ferriola. He’s worried he’s going to get killed because they find the Spallachos immediately because the farmer sees his field all messed up, freshly tilled ground, and it looks really suspicious, like somebody had been poaching deer and burying the carcass. Uh but Toco was a tyrant to his wife he was he was horrible to her he was he was when you think of what a mob guy was that was Toco you know tipping the guy who mows his lawn the kid who mows his lawn hundred bucks and wandered around town everybody knows him but he’d come home and unlike a lot of these guys he was he was a real you know a real. [50:36] Real bastard to his wife you know and for years she put up with this sort of abuse and finally after this this happened and it was in the news and all he finally pushed her too far and she began informing on him and and he was arrested later on he was in his jail cell talking about all the murders he had committed and and this and that about his wife and uh his his uh uh A cellmate repeated everything that he said to try and lessen his sentence. So really, Toco got buried by his big mouth and his terrible behavior. He initially fled to Greece before he was arrested, and they extradited him back from Greece. So this is, I mean, Toco is like deep in mob behavior. [51:22] I mean, fleeing the country and all. I mean, it doesn’t get much more mafia than Al Toco. I hesitate to use that word with Chicago, but that was, Al Toco was running deep. and that Betty Tocco’s testimony eventually led to the trial of Al Tocco. And that was really a blow to the Chicago Heights crew that nowadays, I mean, they continued on and had a few rackets, but after the eventual trial that stemmed from that, it really wasn’t, there’s not much activity now. I’m in that area and there’s just, there’s really nothing here. [51:59] Interesting. Now, so Tony and Michael Spilotro had been lured to somebody’s house on the promise that Michael was going to be made. It’s my understanding. I believe that’s what Frank Collada had reported. And some other people, not part of the Chicago Heights crew, killed him. How did that go down? And how did they pass off the body? You guys, is there anything out there about that? Wasn’t that the family secrets trial, maybe? It was. And, of course, it’s been popularly portrayed in the movie Casino. And it’s surprisingly accurate Except for the fact That where they were beaten But what happened was Little Jimmy Marcello called them. [52:41] And said Sam, meaning Sam Carlisi, the boss, wanted to see them. And they knew that that was ominous because of what was going on beyond the scope of this show. But they took off the jewelry. They left. They told their wives, if we’re not back by 930, it’s not good. They really did not suspect that it was to make Michael. That’s what Collada said. You’re absolutely right about that, Gary. But I don’t think that’s correct at all. They knew that it was bad. And they went. He took a pistol, which was against the rules. They hit him a pistol. Tony hit a pistol on his brother, which you do not do when you go to see the boss. And they were picked up by, by Marcello and taken to a house. I, uh, was it Bensonville? Yeah. Up in Bensonville. Uh, in, in the basement, they walked down the stairs and all of a sudden they looked into the eyes of Carlici and, uh, DeFranzo and everybody, the whole, all the couples were there to spread the, the, uh, liability around and they were beaten to death with, with fists and feet, uh, in, in that basement and then transported to that burial ground, which coincidentally was just maybe a couple hundred yards away from Joey Aupa’s farm. [54:00] Right. So I guess that they must have had, uh, Toco standing by, because I don’t believe he was in that basement. I like that. He must have had him standing by to go grab the bodies and take them out. Really interesting. He should have had the old Doug before he got there. You know, that’s what they always say. First you dig the hole then you go do the murder right and i don’t think he had it done before he got there yeah i don’t i really that’s a good that’s a good point gary i really don’t know and nobody’s ever come forward to say what the status of the hole was beforehand uh you know it was a deep it was a deep it was it was a pretty deep hole uh but they may have had a dug ahead of Tom, but, but, uh, cause they knew the location and it’s pretty obscure location. So they had clearly been there before. And, and, you know, everybody knew that that was, I, I hope was, I got it right. Farm. And, uh, So they may have had it dug, and they just did a shoddy job covering it up. [55:05] But I also haven’t heard the specific details about how they handed it off to Toco. I don’t recall seeing that in Calabrese’s testimony. Yeah, it was Nick Calabrese that testified about that. It brought up the light. He named the killer. So he may not have gone that far, probably having Toco and having his wife testify that he did do this. that she picked him up out there. It was just a piece of the entire prosecution on the spot, which it really never was a trial or anything on that. I don’t believe. Another odd thing is he, I believe he ranted and raved the entire car ride back. And from where he was, you would run up with, It’s now turns into Indianapolis. So it’s a good car ride from where they were to Chicago Heights. I believe he ranted and raved about the guys and his crew and the burial and everything, the entire car ride, which was not something most guys would do in front of their wives. But I really, especially when he treated like that. Right. And complained about how long it took her to get there and everything. So she was able to verify a lot of what Calabrese was saying from the final end of it. Interesting. A friend of mine was in the penitentiary, and he said, there’s a guy in there who called himself a verifier. He said, what do you mean? He said, I’m a professional verifier. What he was, he was an informant. That’s what he was, but he called himself a verifier. [56:33] A girl would come to him and say, well, I heard this, this, and this. Is that true or not? He’d say, well, that’s true. That’s not true. [56:40] I guess that’s a more preferable term. Yeah, she was a verifier. Well, that was great. I really appreciate having that on there and Paul. And I really, I still miss Cam. Every time I get ready to do a Chicago show, I think, oh, I want to get Cam or Rochester. [56:58] We did one about Rochester. We did one about Utica. I did several other shows about other families. And he was a good guy and a real great researcher and a real expert on the outfit and other mafia families. So rest in peace, Cam and Paul. I hope to talk to you again one of these days. Guys, don’t forget, I got stuff to sell out there. Just go to my website or just search on my name for Amazon. I can rent my movies about the skim in Las Vegas, about the big mob war between the Savella brothers and the Spiro brothers in Kansas City. Then one about the great 1946 ballot theft in which the mob… Rigged election, helped Harry Truman rig an election. It’s a little harder to find than mine. You need to put ballot theft and Gary Jenkins. I think you’ll find it then. The other two, Gangland Wire and Brothers Against Brothers, Sabella Spiro, were a little bit easier to find. Had to put it up a different way because Amazon changed the rules, but I got them up there. So thanks a lot, guys.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight's show features Asian Refugees United and Lavender Phoenix in conversation about art, culture, and organizing, and how artists help us imagine and build liberation. Important Links: Lavender Phoenix: Website | Instagram Asian Refugees United: Website | Instagram | QTViệt Cafe Collective Transcript: Cheryl: Hey everyone. Good evening. You tuned in to APEX Express. I'm your host, Cheryl, and tonight is an AACRE Night. AACRE, which is short for Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality is a network made up of 11 Asian American social justice organizations who work together to build long-term movements for justice. Across the AACRE network, our groups are organizing against deportations, confronting anti-blackness, xenophobia, advancing language justice, developing trans and queer leaders, and imagine new systems of safety and care. It's all very good, very important stuff. And all of this from the campaigns to the Organizing to Movement building raises a question that I keep coming back to, which is, where does art live In all of this, Acts of resistance do not only take place in courtrooms or city halls. It takes place wherever people are still able to imagine. It is part of how movements survive and and grow. Art is not adjacent to revolution, but rather it is one of its most enduring forms, and tonight's show sits in that very spirit, and I hope that by the end of this episode, maybe you'll see what I mean. I;d like to bring in my friends from Lavender Phoenix, a trans queer API organization, building people power in the Bay Area, who are also a part of the AACRE Network. This summer, Lavender Phoenix held a workshop that got right to the heart of this very question that we're sitting with tonight, which is what is the role of the artist in social movements? As they were planning the workshop, they were really inspired by a quote from Toni Cade Bambara, who in an interview from 1982 said, as a cultural worker who belongs to an oppressed people, my job is to make the revolution irresistible. So that raises a few questions worth slowing down for, which are, who was Toni Cade Bambara? What does it mean to be a cultural organizer and why does that matter? Especially in this political moment? Lavender Phoenix has been grappling with these questions in practice, and I think they have some powerful answers to share. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to angel who is a member of Lavender Phoenix. Angel: My name is Angel. I use he and she pronouns, and I'm part of the communications committee at LavNix. So, let's explore what exactly is the meaning of cultural work.  Cultural workers are the creators of narratives through various forms of artistic expression, and we literally drive the production of culture. Cultural work reflects the perspectives and attitudes of artists and therefore the people and communities that they belong to. Art does not exist in a vacuum. You may have heard the phrase before. Art is always political. It serves a purpose to tell a story, to document the times to perpetuate and give longevity to ideas. It may conform to the status quo or choose to resist it. I wanted to share a little bit about one cultural worker who's made a really big impact and paved the way for how we think about cultural work and this framework. Toni Cade Bambara was a black feminist, cultural worker, writer, and organizer whose literary work celebrated black art, culture and life, and radically supported a movement for collective liberation. She believed that it's the artist's role to serve the community they belong to, and that an artist is of no higher status than a factory worker, social worker, or teacher. Is the idea of even reframing art making as cultural work. Reclaimed the arts from the elite capitalist class and made clear that it is work, it does not have more value than or take precedence over any other type of movement work. This is a quote from an interview from 1982 when Toni Cade Bambara said, as a cultural worker who belongs to an oppressed people, my job is to make revolution irresistible. But in this country, we're not encouraged and equipped at any particular time to view things that way. And so the artwork or the art practice that sells that capitalist ideology is considered art. And anything that deviates from that is considered political, propagandist, polemical, or didactic, strange, weird, subversive or ugly. Cheryl: After reading that quote, angel then invited the workshop participants to think about what that means for them. What does it mean to make the revolution irresistible? After giving people a bit of time to reflect, angel then reads some of the things that were shared in the chat. Angel: I want my art to point out the inconsistencies within our society to surprised, enraged, elicit a strong enough reaction that they feel they must do something. Cheryl: Another person said, Angel: I love that art can be a way of bridging relationships. Connecting people together, building community. Cheryl: And someone else said. Angel: I want people to feel connected to my art, find themselves in it, and have it make them think and realize that they have the ability to do something themselves. Cheryl: I think what is rather striking in these responses that Angel has read aloud to what it means to make art that makes the revolution irresistible isn't just aesthetics alone, but rather its ability to help us connect and communicate and find one another to enact feelings and responses in each other. It's about the way it makes people feel implicated and connected and also capable of acting. Tony Cade Bambara when she poses that the role of cultural workers is to make the revolution irresistible is posing to us a challenge to tap into our creativity and create art that makes people unable to return comfortably to the world as is, and it makes revolution necessary, desirable not as an abstract idea, but as something people can want and move towards  now I'm going to invite Jenica, who is the cultural organizer at Lavender Phoenix to break down for us why we need cultural work in this political moment. . Speaker: Jenica: So many of us as artists have really internalized the power of art and are really eager to connect it to the movement.  This section is about answering this question of why is cultural work important.  Cultural work plays a really vital role in organizing and achieving our political goals, right? So if our goal is to advance radical solutions to everyday people, we also have to ask ourselves how are we going to reach those peoples? Ideas of revolution and liberation are majorly inaccessible to the masses, to everyday people. Families are being separated. Attacks on the working class are getting worse and worse. How are we really propping up these ideas of revolution, especially right in America, where propaganda for the state, for policing, for a corrupt government runs really high. Therefore our messaging in political organizing works to combat that propaganda. So in a sense we have to make our own propaganda. So let's look at this term together. Propaganda is art that we make that accurately reflects and makes people aware of the true nature of the conditions of their oppression and inspires them to take control of transforming this condition. We really want to make art that seeks to make the broader society aware of its implications in the daily violences, facilitated in the name of capitalism, imperialism, and shows that error of maintaining or ignoring the status quo. So it's really our goal to arm people with the tools to better struggle against their own points of views, their ways of thinking, because not everyone is already aligned with like revolution already, right? No one's born an organizer. No one's born 100% willing to be in this cause. So, we really focus on the creative and cultural processes, as artists build that revolutionary culture. Propaganda is really a means of liberation. It's an instrument to help clarify information education and a way to mobilize our people. And not only that, our cultural work can really model to others what it's like to envision a better world for ourselves, right? Our imagination can be so expansive when it comes to creating art. As organizers and activists when we create communication, zines, et cetera, we're also asking ourselves, how does this bring us one step closer to revolution? How are we challenging the status quo? So this is exactly what our role as artists is in this movement. It's to create propaganda that serves two different purposes. One, subvert the enemy and cultivate a culture that constantly challenges the status quo. And also awaken and mobilize the people. How can we, through our art, really uplift the genuine interests of the most exploited of people of the working class, of everyday people who are targets of the state and really empower those whose stories are often kept outside of this master narrative. Because when they are talked about, people in power will often misrepresent marginalized communities. An example of this, Lavender Phoenix, a couple years ago took up this campaign called Justice for Jaxon Sales. Trigger warning here, hate crime, violence against queer people and death. Um, so Jaxon Sales was a young, queer, Korean adoptee living in the Bay Area who went on a blind like dating app date and was found dead the next morning in a high-rise apartment in San Francisco. Lavender Phoenix worked really closely and is still connected really closely with Jaxon's parents, Jim and Angie Solas to really fight, and organize for justice for Jaxon and demand investigation into what happened to him and his death, and have answers for his family. I bring that up, this campaign because when his parents spoke to the chief medical examiner in San Francisco, they had told his family Jaxon died of an accidental overdose he was gay. Like gay people just these kinds of drugs. So that was the narrative that was being presented to us from the state. Like literally, their own words: he's dead because he's gay. And our narrative, as we continue to organize and support his family, was to really address the stigma surrounding drug use. Also reiterating the fact that justice was deserved for Jaxon, and that no one should ever have to go through this. We all deserve to be safe, that a better world is possible. So that's an example of combating the status quo and then uplifting the genuine interest of our people and his family. One of our key values at Lavender Phoenix is honoring our histories, because the propaganda against our own people is so intense. I just think about the everyday people, the working class, our immigrant communities and ancestors, other queer and trans people of color that really fought so hard to have their story told. So when we do this work and think about honoring our histories, let's also ask ourselves what will we do to keep those stories alive? Cheryl: We're going to take a quick music break and listen to some music by Namgar, an international ethno music collective that fuses traditional Buryat and Mongolian music with pop, jazz, funk, ambient soundscapes, and art- pop. We'll be back in just a moment with more after we listen to “part two” by Namgar.    Cheryl: Welcome back.  You are tuned in to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB B in Berkeley and online at kpfa.org.  That song you just heard was “part two” by Namgar, an incredible four- piece Buryat- Mongolian ensemble that is revitalizing and preserving the Buryat language and culture through music. For those just tuning in tonight's episode of APEX Express is all about the role of the artist in social movements. We're joined by members of Lavender Phoenix, often referred to as LavNix, which is a grassroots organization in the Bay Area building Trans and queer API Power. You can learn more about their work in our show notes. We talked about why cultural work is a core part of organizing. We grounded that conversation in the words of Toni Cade Bambara, who said in a 1982 interview, as a cultural worker who belongs to an oppressed people, my job is to make revolution irresistible. We unpacked what that looks like in practice and lifted up Lavender Phoenix's Justice for Jaxon Sales campaign as a powerful example of cultural organizing, which really demonstrates how art and narrative work and cultural work are essential to building power Now Jenica from Levner Phoenix is going to walk us through some powerful examples of cultural organizing that have occurred in social movements across time and across the world. Speaker: Jenica: Now we're going to look at some really specific examples of powerful cultural work in our movements. For our framework today, we'll start with an international example, then a national one, a local example, and then finally one from LavNix. As we go through them, we ask that you take notes on what makes these examples, impactful forms of cultural work. How does it subvert the status quo? How is it uplifting the genuine interest of the people? Our international example is actually from the Philippines. Every year, the Corrupt Philippines president delivers a state of the nation address to share the current conditions of the country. However, on a day that the people are meant to hear about the genuine concrete needs of the Filipino masses, they're met instead with lies and deceit that's broadcasted and also built upon like years of disinformation and really just feeds the selfish interests of the ruling class and the imperialist powers. In response to this, every year, BAYAN, which is an alliance in the Philippines with overseas chapters here in the US as well. Their purpose is to fight for the national sovereignty and genuine democracy in the Philippines, they hold a Peoples' State of the Nation Address , or PSONA, to protest and deliver the genuine concerns and demands of the masses. So part of PSONA are effigies. Effigies have been regular fixtures in protest rallies, including PSONA. So for those of you who don't know, an effigy is a sculptural representation, often life size of a hated person or group. These makeshift dummies are used for symbolic punishment in political protests, and the figures are often burned. In the case of PSONA, these effigies are set on fire by protestors criticizing government neglect, especially of the poor. Lisa Ito, who is a progressive artists explained that the effigy is constructed not only as a mockery of the person represented, but also of the larger system that his or her likeness embodies. Ito pointed out that effigies have evolved considerably as a form of popular protest art in the Philippines, used by progressive people's movements, not only to entertain, but also to agitate, mobilize and capture the sentiments of the people. This year, organizers created this effigy that they titled ‘ZomBBM,' ‘Sara-nanggal' . This is a play on words calling the corrupt president of the Philippines, Bongbong Marcos, or BBM, a zombie. And the vice president Sara Duterte a Manananggal, which is a, Filipino vampire to put it in short, brief words. Organizers burnt this effigy as a symbol of DK and preservation of the current ruling class. I love this effigy so much. You can see BBM who's depicted like his head is taken off and inside of his head is Trump because he's considered like a puppet president of the Philippines just serving US interests. Awesome. I'm gonna pass it to Angel for our national perspective. Angel: Our next piece is from the national perspective and it was in response to the AIDS crisis. The global pandemic of HIV AIDS began in 1981 and continues today. AIDS is the late stage of HIV infection, human immunodeficiency virus, and this crisis has been marked largely by government indifference, widespread stigma against gay people, and virtually no federal funding towards research or services for everyday people impacted. There was a really devastating lack of public attention about the seriousness of HIV. The Ronald Reagan administration treated the crisis as a joke because of its association with gay men, and Reagan didn't even publicly acknowledge AIDS until 19 85, 4 years into the pandemic. Thousands of HIV positive people across backgrounds and their supporters organize one of the most influential patient advocacy groups in history. They called themselves the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power or ACT up. They ultimately organize and force the government and the scientific community to fundamentally change the way medical research is conducted. Paving the way for the discovery of a treatment that today keeps alive, an estimated half million HIV positive Americans and millions more worldwide. Sarah Schulman, a writer and former member of ACT Up, wrote a list of ACT UPS achievements, including changing the CDC C'S definition of aids to include women legalizing needle exchange in New York City and establishing housing services for HIV positive unhoused people. To highlight some cultural work within ACT Up, the AIDS activist artist Collective Grand Fury formed out of ACT Up and CR and created works for the public sphere that drew attention to the medical, moral and public issues related to the AIDS crisis. Essentially, the government was fine with the mass deaths and had a large role in the active killing off of people who are not just queer, but people who are poor working class and of color. We still see parallels in these roadblocks. Today, Trump is cutting public healthcare ongoing, and in recent memory, the COVID crisis, the political situation of LGBTQ people then and now is not divorced from this class analysis. So in response, we have the AIDS Memorial Quilt, this collective installation memorializes people who died in the US from the AIDS crisis and from government neglect. Each panel is dedicated to a life lost and created by hand by their friends, family, loved ones, and community. This artwork was originally conceived by Cleve Jones in SF for the 1985 candlelight March, and later it was expanded upon and displayed in Washington DC in 1987. Its enormity demonstrated the sheer number at which queer folk were killed in the hiv aids crisis, as well as created a space in the public for dialogue about the health disparities that harm and silence our community. Today, it's returned home to San Francisco and can be accessed through an interactive online archive. 50,000 individual panels and around a hundred thousand names make up the patchwork quilt, which is insane, and it's one of the largest pieces of grassroots community art in the world. Moving on to a more local perspective. In the Bay Area, we're talking about the Black Panther Party. So in October of 1966 in Oakland, California, Huey Newton and Bobby Seale founded the Black Panther Party for self-defense. The Panthers practiced militant self-defense of black communities against the US government and fought to establish socialism through organizing and community-based programs. The Black Panthers began by organizing arm patrols of black people to monitor the Oakland Police Department and challenge rampant rampant police brutality. At its peak, the party had offices in 68 cities and thousands of members. The party's 10 point program was a set of demands, guidelines, and values, calling for self-determination, full employment of black people, and the end of exploitation of black workers housing for all black people, and so much more. The party's money programs directly addressed their platform as they instituted a free B Breakfast for Children program to address food scarcity Founded community health clinics to address the lack of adequate, adequate healthcare for black people and treat sickle cell anemia, tuberculosis, and HIV aids and more. The cultural work created by the Black Panther Party included the Black Panther Party newspaper known as the Black Panther. It was a four page newsletter in Oakland, California in 1967. It was the main publication of the party and was soon sold in several large cities across the US as well as having an international readership. The Black Panther issue number two. The newspaper, distributed information about the party's activities and expressed through articles, the ideology of the Black Panther Party, focusing on both international revolutions as inspiration and contemporary racial struggles of African Americans across the United States. Solidarity with other resistance movements was a major draw for readers. The paper's international section reported on liberation struggles across the world. Under Editor-in-Chief, David Du Bois, the stepson of WEB Du Bois, the section deepened party support for revolutionary efforts in South Africa and Cuba. Copies of the paper traveled abroad with students and activists and were tra translated into Hebrew and Japanese. It reflected that the idea of resistance to police oppression had spread like wildfire. Judy Juanita, a former editor in Chief Ads, it shows that this pattern of oppression was systemic. End quote. Paper regularly featured fiery rhetoric called out racist organizations and was unabashed in its disdain for the existing political system. Its first cover story reported on the police killing of Denzel Doel, a 22-year-old black man in Richmond, California. In all caps, the paper stated, brothers and sisters, these racist murders are happening every day. They could happen to any one of us. And it became well known for its bold cover art, woodcut style images of protestors, armed panthers, and police depicted as bloodied pigs. Speaker: Jenica: I'm gonna go into the LavNix example of cultural work that we've done. For some context, we had mentioned that we are taking up this campaign called Care Not Cops. Just to give some brief background to LavNix, as systems have continued to fail us, lavender Phoenix's work has always been about the safety of our communities. We've trained people in deescalation crisis intervention set up counseling networks, right? Then in 2022, we had joined the Sales family to fight for justice for Jaxon Sales. And with them we demanded answers for untimely death from the sheriff's department and the medical examiner. Something we noticed during that campaign is that every year we watch as people in power vote on another city budget that funds the same institutions that hurt our people and steal money from our communities. Do people know what the budget is for the San Francisco Police Department? Every year, we see that city services and programs are gutted. Meanwhile, this year, SFPD has $849 million, and the sheriff has $345 million. So, honestly, policing in general in the city is over $1 billion. And they will not experience any cuts. Their bloated budgets will remain largely intact. We've really been watching, Mayor Lurie , his first months and like, honestly like first more than half a year, with a lot of concern. We've seen him declare the unlawful fentanyl state of emergency, which he can't really do, and continue to increase police presence downtown. Ultimately we know that mayor Lurie and our supervisors need to hear from us everyday people who demand care, not cops. So that leads me into our cultural work. In March of this year, lavender Phoenix had collaborated with youth organizations across the city, youth groups from Chinese Progressive Association, PODER, CYC, to host a bilingual care, not cops, zine making workshop for youth. Our organizers engaged with the youth with agitating statistics on the egregious SFPD budget, and facilitated a space for them to warm up their brains and hearts to imagine a world without prisons and policing. And to really further envision one that centers on care healing for our people, all through art. What I really learned is that working class San Francisco youth are the ones who really know the city's fascist conditions the most intimately. It's clear through their zine contributions that they've really internalized these intense forms of policing in the schools on the streets with the unhoused, witnessing ice raids and fearing for their families. The zine was really a collective practice with working class youth where they connected their own personal experiences to the material facts of policing in the city, the budget, and put those experiences to paper.   Cheryl: Hey everyone. Cheryl here. So we've heard about Effigies in the Philippines, the AIDS Memorial Quilt, the Black Panther Party's newspaper, the Black Panther and Lavender Phoenix's Care Cop zine. Through these examples, we've learned about cultural work and art and narrative work on different scales internationally, nationally, locally and organizationally. With lavender Phoenix. What we're seeing is across movements across time. Cultural work has always been central to organizing. We're going to take another music break, but when we return, I'll introduce you to our next speaker. Hai, from Asian Refugees United, who will walk us through, their creative practice, which is food, as a form of cultural resistance, and we'll learn about how food ways can function as acts of survival, resistance, and also decolonization. So stay with us more soon when we return.   Cheryl: And we're back!!. You're listening to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. That was “Juniper” by Minjoona, a project led by Korean American musician, Jackson Wright.  huge thanks to Jackson and the whole crew behind that track.  I am here with Hai from Asian Refugees United, who is a member QTViet Cafe Collective. A project under Asian Refugees United. QTViet Viet Cafe is a creative cultural hub that is dedicated to queer and trans viet Liberation through ancestral practices, the arts and intergenerational connection. This is a clip from what was a much longer conversation. This episode is all about the role of the artist in social movements and I think Hai brings a very interesting take to the conversation. Hai (ARU): I think that what is helping me is one, just building the muscle. So when we're so true to our vision and heart meets mind and body. So much of what QTViet Cafe is, and by extension Asian refugees and like, we're really using our cultural arts and in many ways, whether that's movement or poetry or written word or song or dance. And in many ways I've had a lot of experience in our food ways, and reclaiming those food ways. That's a very embodied experience. We're really trying to restore wholeness and health and healing in our communities, in our bodies and our minds and our families and our communities that have been displaced because of colonization, imperialism, capitalism. And so how do we restore, how do we have a different relationship and how do we restore? I think that from moving from hurt to healing is life and art. And so we need to take risk and trying to define life through art and whatever means that we can to make meaning and purpose and intention. I feel like so much of what art is, is trying to make meaning of the hurt in order to bring in more healing in our lives. For so long, I think I've been wanting a different relationship to food. For example, because I grew up section eight, food stamps, food bank. My mom and my parents doing the best they could, but also, yeah, grew up with Viet food, grew up with ingredients for my parents making food, mostly my mom that weren't necessarily all the best. And I think compared to Vietnam, where it's easier access. And there's a different kind of system around, needs around food and just easier access, more people are involved around the food system in Vietnam I think growing up in Turtle Island and seeing my parents struggle not just with food, but just with money and jobs it's just all connected. And I think that impacted my journey and. My own imbalance around health and I became a byproduct of diabetes and high cholesterol and noticed that in my family. So when I noticed, when I had type two diabetes when I was 18, made the conscious choice to, I knew I needed to have some type of, uh, I need to have a different relationship to my life and food included and just like cut soda, started kind of what I knew at the time, exercising as ways to take care of my body. And then it's honestly been now a 20 year journey of having a different relationship to not just food, but health and connection to mind, body, spirit. For me, choosing to have a different relationship in my life, like that is a risk. Choosing to eat something different like that is both a risk and an opportunity. For me that's like part of movement building like you have to. Be so in tune with my body to notice and the changes that are needed in order to live again. When I noticed, you know, , hearing other Viet folks experiencing diet related stuff and I think knowing what I know also, like politically around what's happening around our food system, both for the vie community here and also in Vietnam, how do we, how can this regular act of nourishing ourselves both be not just in art, something that should actually just honestly be an everyday need and an everyday symbol of caregiving and caretaking and care that can just be part of our everyday lives. I want a world where, it's not just one night where we're tasting the best and eating the best and being nourished, just in one Saturday night, but that it's just happening all the time because we're in right relationship with ourselves and each other and the earth that everything is beauty and we don't have to take so many risks because things are already in its natural divine. I think it takes being very conscious of our circumstances and our surroundings and our relationships with each other for that to happen. I remember reading in my early twenties, reading the role of, bring Coke basically to Vietnam during the war. I was always fascinated like, why are, why is Coke like on Viet altars all the time? And I always see them in different places. Whenever I would go back to Vietnam, I remember when I was seven and 12. Going to a family party and the classic shiny vinyl plastic, floral like sheet on a round table and the stools, and then these beautiful platters of food. But I'm always like, why are we drinking soda or coke and whatever else? My dad and the men and then my family, like drinking beer. And I was like, why? I've had periods in my life when I've gotten sick, physically and mentally sick. Those moments open up doors to take the risk and then also the opportunity to try different truth or different path. When I was 23 and I had just like crazy eczema and psoriasis and went back home to my parents for a while and I just started to learn about nourishing traditions, movement. I was Very critical of the us traditional nutrition ideas of what good nutrition is and very adamantly like opposing the food pyramid. And then in that kind of research, I was one thinking well, they're talking about the science of broths and like soups and talking about hard boiling and straining the broth and getting the gunk on the top. And I'm like, wait, my mom did that. And I was starting to connect what has my mom known culturally that now like science is catching up, you know? And then I started just reading, you know, like I think that my mom didn't know the sign mom. I was like, asked my mom like, did you know about this? And she's like, I mean, I just, this is, is like what ba ngoai said, you know? And so I'm like, okay, so culturally this, this is happening scientifically. This is what's being shared. And then I started reading about the politics of US-centric upheaval of monocultural agriculture essentially. When the US started to do the industrial Revolution and started to basically grow wheat and soy and just basically make sugar to feed lots of cows and create sugar to be put in products like Coke was one of them. And, and then, yeah, that was basically a way for the US government to make money from Vietnam to bring that over, to Vietnam. And that was introduced to our culture. It's just another wave of imperialism and colonization. And sadly, we know what, overprocessed, like refined sugars can do to our health. And sadly, I can't help but make the connections with what happened. In many ways, food and sugar are introduced through these systems of colonization and imperialism are so far removed from what we ate pre colonization. And so, so much of my journey around food has been, you know, it's not even art, it's just like trying to understand, how do we survive and we thrive even before so many. And you know, in some ways it is art. 'cause I making 40 pounds of cha ga for event, , the fish cake, like, that's something that, that our people have been doing for a long time and hand making all that. And people love the dish and I'm really glad that people enjoyed it and mm, it's like, oh yeah, it's art. But it's what people have been doing to survive and thrive for long, for so long, you know? , We have the right to be able to practice our traditional food ways and we have the right for food sovereignty and food justice. And we have the right to, by extension, like have clean waters and hospitable places to live and for our animal kin to live and for our plant kin to be able to thrive. bun cha ga, I think like it's an artful hopeful symbol of what is seasonal and relevant and culturally symbolic of our time. I think that, yes, the imminent, violent, traumatic war that are happening between people, in Vietnam and Palestine and Sudan. Honestly, like here in America. That is important. And I think we need to show, honestly, not just to a direct violence, but also very indirect violence on our bodies through the food that we're eating. Our land and waters are living through indirect violence with just like everyday pollutants and top soil being removed and industrialization. And so I think I'm just very cognizant of the kind of everyday art ways, life ways, ways of being that I think that are important to be aware of and both practice as resistance against the forces that are trying to strip away our livelihood every day. Cheryl: We just heard from Hai of Asian refugees United who shared about how food ways function as an embodied form of cultural work that is rooted in memory and also survival and healing. Hai talked about food as a practice and art that is lived in the body and is also shaped by displacement and colonization and capitalism and imperialism. I shared that through their journey with QTV at Cafe and Asian Refugees United. High was able to reflect on reclaiming traditional food ways as a way to restore health and wholeness and relationship to our bodies and to our families, to our communities, and to the earth. High. Also, traced out illness and imbalance as deeply connected to political systems that have disrupted ancestral knowledge and instead introduced extractive food systems and normalized everyday forms of soft violence through what we consume and the impact it has on our land. And I think the most important thing I got from our conversation was that high reminded us that nourishing ourselves can be both an act of care, an art form, and an act of resistance. And what we call art is often what people have always done to survive and thrive Food. For them is a practice of memory, and it's also a refusal of erasure and also a very radical vision of food sovereignty and healing and collective life outside of colonial violence and harm. As we close out tonight's episode, I want to return to the question that has guided us from the beginning, which is, what is the role of the artist in social movements? What we've heard tonight from Tony Cade Bambara call to make revolution irresistible to lavender Phoenix's cultural organizing here, internationally to Hai, reflections on food ways, and nourishing ourselves as resistance. It is Really clear to me. Art is not separate from struggle. It is how people make sense of systems of violence and carry memory and also practice healing and reimagining new worlds in the middle of ongoing violence. Cultural work helps our movements. Endure and gives us language when words fail, or ritual when grief is heavy, and practices that connect us, that reconnect us to our bodies and our histories and to each other. So whether that's through zines, or songs or murals, newspapers, or shared meals, art is a way of liberation again and again. I wanna thank all of our speakers today, Jenica, Angel. From Lavender Phoenix. Hi, from QTV Cafe, Asian Refugees United, And I also wanna thank you, our listeners for staying with us. You've been listening to Apex Express on KPFA. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and keep imagining the world that we're trying to build. That's important stuff. Cheryl Truong (she/they): Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong  Cheryl Truong: Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!  The post APEX Express – January 1, 2026 – The Role of the Artist in Social Movements appeared first on KPFA.

Get in Babes, We're Going to the Cottage. Amy, Lia, and Megan take a departure from Seoul and dive headfirst in Canada to talk about our new obsession, the queer hockey romance TV series, Heated Rivalry, based on the Game Changers book series by Rachel Reid. This isn't a deep dive, and instead we discuss all the ways that the show's creator Jacob Tierney nails the romance novel conventions and gives us the best romance adaptation we have ever seen. Also, we learn rivalry is a hard word to say out loud repeatedly.Books mentioned:Hamartia by Scarlett DrakeShow Me Wonders by Riley NashThe Gentleman's Guide to Vice and Virtue by Mackenzi LeeReady to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Friends in Bangtan...Well, we've made it. Half the world is already in 2026, and your hosts today (Lia and Megan) are almost there. 2026 = BTS Year. For many ARMY, it will be our first big OT7 comeback. It's time to start adjusting eyes and blinking around at this new purple-hued world. Join us for a quick recap on the most famous cat reveal in history (3 cats hard launched this month), and a round up on member news. Also, it's been noted Namjoon can't stop/won't stop referencing Ddaeng. Is our spoiler king coming through with a new year treat? Get in the clown car, baby. Time to ride.Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Check out our sister pod www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest members of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Want to find more great BTS content? Head over to Afternoona Army for more takes on Bangtan life and links to our social media.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. APEX Express and Lavender Phoenix are both members of AACRE, Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality. AACRE focuses on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice.   To learn more about Lavender Phoenix, please visit their website. You can also listen to a previous APEX Express episode honoring Lavender Phoenix's name change.    Miata Tan: ​[00:00:00] Hello and welcome. You are tuning in to APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans. I am your host, Miata Tan. And before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this show was recorded on December 16th, 2025. Things may have changed by the time you hear this. I also wanted to take a moment to acknowledge [00:01:00] some recent gun violence tragedies, not only in the US but globally. As you might be able to tell from my accent, I'm Australian.  Over the weekend, 15 people were killed in Sydney, on Bondi Beach in a mass shooting. The likes not seen in 30 years. . Australia's gun control laws are different to the US in a number of ways that I won't get into right now, but this massacre is one of the few we've seen since the nineties. In the US we've also seen the shooting at Brown University where two of their students were killed by a still active shooter. It's strange. Guns and weapons are horrific. Tools used to take the life of people every day globally. An everyday occurrence now brings a degree of complacency. Although you personally might not have been [00:02:00] impacted by these recent shootings, the wars going on abroad, or government attacks on immigrant communities, and ICE deportation cases taking place here in America, the impact of horrific acts of violence have ripple effects that spread across this country and world. Careless violence motivated by hate for another be that racially charged conflicting ideologies. It's all awful. And I, and I guess I wanted to acknowledge that here at the top of this episode. Profound hatred and judgment toward others is not only incredibly sad, it's self-defeating. And I don't mean to sound all preachy and I understand it's December 25th and perhaps you're sick of the sound of my voice and you're about to change the station. In all honesty, I, I would've by [00:03:00] now. It's easy to tune out suffering. It's easy to tune out violence, but if you're still listening. Today, as many of us are gathering for the holiday ,season, whether or not you believe in a higher power or acknowledge that big guy in a red suit that brings kids presents, I invite you to sit with some of these thoughts. To acknowledge and reflect on the violence that exists around us, the hatred and dehumanization. We as humans are capable of feeling toward one another. Let's just sit here for a moment with that uncomfortability. Now. Think, what can I do today to make another's life [00:04:00] just that tiny bit brighter? Okay. Now to reintroduce myself and this show, my name is Miata Tan and this is APEX Express. A show that honors Asian American communities far and wide, uplifting the voices of artists, activists, organizers, and more. We have two incredible guests today from Lavender Phoenix, a Bay Area based organization supporting queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islander youth. I really enjoyed my conversation with these two, and I'm sure you will as well. And a quick note throughout both of these conversations, you'll hear us referring to the organization as both Lavender Phoenix and it's very cute nickname Lav Nix. Without further ado, here's [00:05:00] my conversation with Yuan Wang, the outgoing director at Lavender Phoenix.   Miata Tan: Yuan, thank you so much for joining us today. Would you be able to share a little bit about yourself with our listeners to get started?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. I'm so excited to be here. , My name is Yuan. My pronouns are she, and they, and I'm actually the outgoing executive director of Lavender Phoenix. You're catching me on my second to last week in this role after about four years as the executive director, and more years on our staff team as an organizer and also as a part of our youth summer organizer program. So this is a really exciting and special time and I'm really excited to reflect about it with you.  Miata Tan: Yay. I'm so excited. I'd love for you to give us an overview of Lavender Phoenix and the work that y'all do, what communities you support,  Yuan Wang: Lavender Phoenix was founded about 21 years ago, and we are based in the Bay [00:06:00] Area. We're a grassroots organization that builds the power of transgender non-binary and queer Asian and Pacific Islander communities right here in the Bay. Right now our work focuses on three major Areas. The first is around fighting for true community safety. There are so, so many ways that queer, trans, and more broadly, uh, working class communities in the San Francisco Bay Area. Are needing ways to keep ourselves and each other safe, that don't rely on things like policing, that don't rely on things like incarceration that are actually taking people out of our communities and making us less safe. The second big pillar of our work is around healing justice. We know that a lot of folks in our community. Struggle with violence, struggle with trauma, struggle with isolation, and that a lot of the systems that exist aren't actually really designed for queer and trans API people, to thrive and feel connected. And [00:07:00] so, we've been leading programs and campaigns around healing justice. And the last thing is we're trying to build a really principled, high integrity leaderful movement. So we do a ton of base building work, which just means that, everyday queer and trans API people in our community can come to Lavender Phoenix, who want to be involved in organizing and political work. And we train folks to become organizers. Miata Tan: And you yourself came into Lavender Phoenix through one of those programs, is that right?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. Um, that is so true. I came into Lavender Phoenix about seven or eight years ago through the Summer organizer program, which is kind of our flagship youth organizing fellowship. And I was super lucky to be a part of that.  Miata Tan: How has that felt coming into Lavender Phoenix? Like as a participant of one of those programs? Yeah. And now, uh, over the past few years, being able to [00:08:00] lead the organization?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. It feels like the most incredible gift. I share this a lot, but you know, when I had come into Lavender Phoenix through the summer organizer program, I had already had some experience, doing organizing work, you know, doing door knocking, working on campaigns. but I really wanted to be in a space where I felt like I could be all of myself, and that included being trans, you know, that included. Being in a really vulnerable part of my gender transition journey and wanting to feel like I was around people all the time who maybe were in a similar journey or could understand that in a really intimate way. I really found that at Lavender Phoenix. It was pretty unbelievable, to be honest. I remember, uh, the first day that I walked in. There were members and volunteers leading a two hour long political education that was just about the histories of trans and non-binary people in different Asian and Pacific Islander communities. So just being in a room [00:09:00] full of people who shared my identities and where, where we were prioritizing these histories was really, really exciting. I think for the years it's just been so amazing to see Lavender Phoenix grow. The time when I joined, we had a totally different name. It was API equality, Northern California, or we called ourselves a pink and we were really focused on projects like the Dragon Fruit Project, which was a, a series of more than a hundred oral histories that we did with elders and other members members of our community. Things like the Trans Justice Initiative, which were our first efforts at really building a community that was trans centered and that was, was building trans leaders. And now those things are so deeply integrated into our work that they've allowed us to be focused on some more, I think what we call like issue based work, and that that is that community safety, healing justice work. That I mentioned earlier. So, it's just been amazing to witness multiple generations of the organization that has shaped [00:10:00] me so much as a person.  Miata Tan: That's really nice. Seven, eight years that, that whole  Yuan Wang: Yeah, I joined in 2018 in June, so you can maybe do, I think that's about seven and a half years. Yeah. I'm bad at math though.  Miata Tan: Me too. So you've been executive director since late 2021 then? This, these few years since then we've seen a lot of shifts and changes in our I guess global political culture and the way conversations around racial solidarity issues mm-hmm. as you've navigated being executive director, what, what has changed in your approach maybe from 2021 till this year? 2025?  Yuan Wang: Wow, that's such an interesting question. You're so right to say that. I think for anyone who's listening, I, I imagine this resonates that the last four years have [00:11:00] been. Really a period of extraordinary violence and brutality and grief in our world. And that's definitely true for a lot of folks in Lavender Phoenix. You mentioned that we've been living through, you know, continued pandemic that our government is providing so little support and recognition for. We've seen multiple uprisings, uh, in the movement for black lives to defend, you know, and, and bring dignity to the lives of people who were killed and are police. And obviously we're still facing this immense genocide in Gaza and Palestine bombings that continue. So I think if there's, if there's anything that I could say to your question about how my approach has changed. I would say that we as a whole, as an organization have had to continue to grow stronger and stronger in balancing our long-term vision. Intensifying urgent needs of right now and [00:12:00] balancing doing the work that it takes to defend our people and try to change institutions with the incredible and at times overwhelming grief of living in this moment. Yeah, you know, in this past year, um. Have been members of our community and, and our larger community who have passed away. Uh, I'm sure there are some listeners who know, Alice Wong, Patty by architects of the disability justice movement that Lavender Phoenix has learned so much from who have passed away. And we've had to balance, you know. Like one week there's threats that the National Guard and that ICE will be deployed and even higher numbers to San Francisco and, and across the Bay Area. And oh my gosh, so many of us are sitting with an incredible personal grief that we're trying to hold too. So, I think that's been one of the biggest challenges of the last few years is, is finding that balance. Yeah. I can say that some of the things that I feel proudest of are, [00:13:00] you know, just as an example, in our healing justice work, over the past four years, our members have been architecting a, a trans, API peer counseling program. And, through that program they've been able to provide, first of all, train up. So many trans API, people as skilled, as attentive, as loving peer counselors who are then able to provide that. Free, uh, accessible peer mental health support to other people who need it. So I think that's just one example. Something that gives me a lot of hope is seeing the way that our members are still finding ways to defend and love and support each other even in a time of really immense grief.  Miata Tan: That's really beautiful and it's important that you are listening to your community members at this time. How do you, this is kind of specific, but how do you all gather together? Yeah, Yuan Wang: yeah. You know, I feel really lucky 'cause I think for the last 10 years we, Lavender Phoenix as a whole, even before I was a part of it, has been [00:14:00] building towards a model of really collective governance. Um, and, and I don't wanna make it sound like it. You know, it's perfect. It's very challenging. It's very hard. But I think like our comrades at Movement generation often say, if we're not prepared to govern, then we're not prepared to win. And we try to take that, that practice really seriously here. So, you know, I think that, that getting together. That making decisions with each other, that making sure that members and staff are both included. That happens at like a really high strategic level. You know, the three pillars of our theory of change that I mentioned earlier, those were all set through a year of strategy retreats between our staff, but also a. 10 to 15 of our most experienced and most involved members who are at that decision making. The same comes for our name, uh, Lavender Phoenix. You know, it was, it was really our core committee, our, our member leaders who helped decide on that name. And then we invited some of our elders to speak about what it meant for them, for us to choose Lavender Phoenix, because it was an homage to the work [00:15:00] so many of our elders did in the eighties and nineties. It also looks like the day-to-day, because a lot of our work happens through specific committees, whether it's our community safety committee or healing justice committee. Um, and those are all committees where there's one staff person, but it's really a room of 5, 10, 15 members who are leading community safety trainings. The peer counseling program, training new members through our rise up onboarding, um, and setting new goals, new strategic targets every single year. So, it's always in progress. We're in fact right now working on some challenges and getting better at it, but we're really trying to practice what governing and self-determination together looks like right in our own organization. Miata Tan: And a lot of these people are volunteers too.  Yuan Wang: yeah, so when I joined the organization there were two staff, two mighty staff people at the time. We've grown to nine full-time staff people, but most of our organization is volunteers. [00:16:00] Yeah. And we call those folks members, you know, committed volunteers who are participants in one of our committees or projects. Um, and I believe right now there's about 80 members in Lavender Phoenix.  Miata Tan: Wow. It's wonderful to hear so much growth has happened in, um, this period that you've been with Lavender Phoenix. The idea of empowering youth, I think is core to a lot of Lavender Phoenix's work. What has that looked like specifically in the last few years, especially this year? Yuan Wang: Yeah, the  Miata Tan: challenges.  Yuan Wang: That's a great question. I think, um, you know, one of those ways is, is really specifically targeted towards young people, right? It's the summer organizer program, which I went through many years ago, and our previous executive director was also an alumnus of the summer organizer program, but that's, you know, an eight to 10 week fellowship. It's paid, it's designed specifically for young trans and queer API people who are working class, who grew up in the [00:17:00] Bay to organize with us and, and really. Hopefully be empowered with tools that they'll use for the next decade or for the rest of their life. But I'll also say, you know, you mentioned that Lavender Phoenix has grown so much in the last few years, and that is such a credit to folks who were here 10 years ago, even 15 years ago, you know, because, the intergenerational parts of our work started years before I was involved. You know, I mentioned earlier the Dragon Fruit Project where we were able to connect so, so many elders in our community with a lot of younger folks in our community who were craving relationships and conversations and like, what happened in the eighties? What happened in the nineties, what did it feel like? Why are you still organizing? Why does this matter to you? And we're actually able to have those conversations with folks in, in our community who. Have lived and fought and organized for decades already. So I think that was like one early way we started to establish that like intergenerational in our work.[00:18:00]  And a lot of those folks have stayed on as volunteers, as supporters, some as members, and as donors or advisors. So I feel really lucky that we're still benefiting in terms of building the leadership of young people, but also intergenerational reality overall because of work that folks did 10 years ago. Miata Tan: That's really important. Having those, those ties that go back. Queer history is so rich, especially in the, in the Bay Area. And there's a lot to honor.  With the intersection between queer and immigrant histories here, I wonder if you have anything that comes to mind. Yuan Wang: I think that queer and immigrant histories intersect in the lives of so many of our, our members and, and the people who are inspiration too. You know, I'm not sure that. I think a lot of listeners may not know that Lavender Phoenix is as a name. It's an homage to Lavender, Godzilla, [00:19:00] and Phoenix Rising, which were two of the first publications. They were newsletters launched back in the eighties by groups of. Uh, trans and queer API, folks who are now elders and who were looking around, you know, learning from the Black Power movement, learning from solidarity movements in the Bay Area, and saying we really need to create spaces where. Trans and queer Asian Pacific Islanders can talk about our journeys of migration, our family's journeys as refugees, our experiences with war, and then also about love and joy and finding friendship and putting out advertisements so that people could get together for potlucks. So yeah, I think, um, there's so much about the intersection of immigrant and queer and trans journeys that have been. Just even at the root of how we name ourselves and how we think of ourselves as an or as an organization today.  Miata Tan: I think today, more than ever all of these [00:20:00] communities feel a little more than a little under threat,  Yuan Wang: we could say so much about that. I think one thing that we're really paying attention to is, uh, we're seeing in different communities across the country, the ways in which the right wing is. Uh, kind of wielding the idea of trans people, uh,  the perceived threat that trans people pose. As a wedge issue to try to build more more power, more influence, more connections in immigrant communities and in the process like really invisiblizing or really amplifying the harm that immigrant, trans and queer. People experience every single day. So I think something that we're thinking about on the horizon, you know, whether it's, uh, partnering with organizations in California or in the Bay Area or across the country who are doing that really critical base building work, power building work in immigrant communities is trying to ask, you know. How do we actually proactively as [00:21:00] progressives, as people on the left, how do we proactively have conversations with immigrant communities about trans and queer issues, about the, uh, incredibly overlapping needs that trans and queer people in all people who are marginalized right now have in these political conditions? Um, how can we be proactive about those combinations and making those connections so that, we can kind of inoculate folks against the way that the right wing is targeting trans people, is fear mongering about trans people and trying to make inroads in immigrant communities. Yeah. That's one thing on our radar for the future. Miata Tan: That's so important. Kind of, breaking down those, those stereotypes Yuan Wang: totally breaking down stereotypes, breaking down misinformation. And yeah, it reminds me of a few years ago Lavender Phoenix held a few conversations with a partner organization of ours where there were some younger folks from our organization who are talking to some older immigrant members of that organization and we're just [00:22:00] connecting about, the sacred importance of, parenting trans and queer kids right now of, you know, and, and just having conversations that actually humanize all of us rather than buying into narratives and stories that that dehumanize and, and that flatten us. Yeah. Um, so that we can defend ourselves from the way that the right wing is trying to hurt immigrant communities and trans and queer communities. Miata Tan: the youth that you work directly with each week. Is there anything as you reflect back on your, your time with Laxs that really stand out, things that folks have said or led conversations in?  Yuan Wang: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I, I could, I could celebrate things that I've witnessed every single year. You know, we the young people in the summer organizer program experience so, so much in, in many ways it's kind of like the faucets, like all the way on, you know, like there's, [00:23:00] they're learning so much about skills and values and projects and, you know, just as some examples this last summer, we had a team of summer organizers who helped lead an event that was about COVID safety and disability justice, where people actually got together to build DIY air filters that could hopefully, you know, make them feel safer in their own homes. And, um, in previous years we've had summer organizers work on the peer counseling program. There's so much that folks have done. I think what I actually hear year after year is oftentimes the thing that sticks out the most, it isn't necessarily just the project, it isn't necessarily like the hard skill training. It's people saying every single week during our team check-ins, someone shared an affirmation with me. I felt more seen. It's people saying, you know, I didn't expect that we were gonna do a three hour training. That was just about why it's so important [00:24:00] to ask for help and why that can be so, so difficult for, um, for queer and trans young folks. It's folks saying, you know, even speaking for myself actually. I remember being a summer organizer and one of, uh, my close friends now one of our elders, Vince spoke on a panel for us and, talked about what it was like to be young during the height of the hiv aids crisis, you know, when the government was neglecting to care for folks and so many members of our community were dying without care, were, were passing away without support. And all of the lessons that Vince took from that time holds now, decades later that still make him feel more hopeful, more committed, more full as a person. Um, that meant so much to me to hear when I was 21 and, still feeling really scared and really lonely, about the future. So I think it's those, I, I wouldn't even call them like softer skills, but the [00:25:00] incredible st. Sturdiness and resilience that building long-term relationships creates that seeing people who show you a potential path, if it's been hard to imagine the future. And that building the skills that make relationships more resilient. I feel like it's those things that always stand out the most to a lot of our young people. And then to me, I see them grow in it and be challenged by those things every single year. I feel really good. 'cause I know that at the end of the summer organizer program, there's a group of young, queer and trans API rising leaders who are gonna bring that level of rigorous kindness, attentive attentiveness to emotions, um, of vulnerability that creates more honesty and interdependence. They're gonna be taking that to an another organization, to another environment, to another year in our movement. That makes me feel really happy and hopeful.  Miata Tan: Yes. Community.  Yuan Wang: Yeah.  Miata Tan: . [00:26:00] Looking towards that bright future that you, you shared just now Tina Shelf is coming on as the executive director. What are your hopes for 2026 Yuan Wang: yeah. You know, I'm, I'm so excited that we're welcoming Tina and we're really lucky because Tina joined us in August of this year. So we've had a good, like five months to overlap with each other and to really, um, for all of us, not just me, but our staff, our members, to really welcome and support Tina in onboarding to the role. I feel incredibly excited for Lavender Phoenix's future. I think that in this next year, on one hand, our Care Knock Cops campaign, which has been a huge focus of the organization where uh, we've been rallying other organizations and people across San Francisco to fight to direct funding from policing to. To protect funding that's being threatened every year for housing, for healthcare, for human services that people really [00:27:00] need. I think we're gonna see that campaign grow and there are so many members and staff who are rigorously working on that every single day. And on the other hand, I think that this is a time for Lavender Phoenix to really sturdy itself. We are in we're approaching, the next stage of an authoritarian era that we've been getting ready for many years and is in other ways as so many folks are saying new and unprecedented. So I think, um, a lot of our work in this next year is actually making sure that our members' relationships to each other are stronger, making sure that, responsibility, is shared in, in, in greater ways that encourage more and more leadership and growth throughout our membership so that we are more resilient and less res reliant on smaller and smaller groups of people. I think you're gonna see our program and campaign work continue to be impactful. And I'm really hopeful that when we talk again, maybe in two years, three years, five years, we're gonna be [00:28:00] looking at an organization that's even more resilient and even more connected internally.  Miata Tan: It's really important that y'all are thinking so long term, I guess, and have been preparing for this moment in many ways. On a personal note, as you are coming to an end as executive director, what's what's next for you? I'd love to know.  Yuan Wang: Yeah, that's such a sweet question. I'm going to, I'm gonna rest for a little bit. Yeah. I haven't taken a sustained break from organizing since I was 18 or so. So it's been a while and I'm really looking forward to some rest and reflection. I think from there. I'm gonna figure out, what makes sense for me in terms of being involved with movement and I'm, I'm certain that one of those things will be staying involved. Lavender Phoenix as a member. Really excited to keep supporting our campaign work. Really excited to keep supporting the organization as a whole just from a role that I've never had as a volunteer member. So, I'm just psyched for that and I can't [00:29:00] wait to be a part of Lavender Phoenix's future in this different way.  Miata Tan: Have fun. You'll be like on the other side almost. Yeah,  Yuan Wang: totally. Totally. And, and getting to see and support our incredible staff team just in a different way.  Miata Tan: One final question As you are sort of moving into this next stage, and this idea of community and base building being so incredibly important to your work and time with Lavender Phoenix, is there anything you'd like to say, I guess for someone who might be considering. Joining in some way or Yeah. Where they could get involved, but they're not, not quite sure. Yuan Wang: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think that if you are a queer and trans, API person who is looking for community, um, looking to channel what you care about into action, looking to be with other people who care about you Lavender Phoenix is here. [00:30:00] And I think that there is no more critical time. Than the one we're in to get activated and to try to organize. ‘Cause our world really needs us right now. The world needs all of us and it also really needs the wisdom, the experience, and the love of queer and trans people. So, I will be rejoining our membership at some point and I'd really like to meet you and I hope that we get to, to grow in this work and to, um, to fight for our freedom together. Miata Tan: Thank you so much. We, this was a really lovely conversation.  Yuan Wang: Yeah, thank you so much And also welcome Tina. Good luck. [00:31:00] [00:32:00] [00:33:00]  Miata Tan: That was the Love by Jason Chu, featuring Fuzzy. If you're just joining us, you are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and [00:34:00] online@kpfa.org. I am your host, Miata Tan, and today we are joined by the Lavender Phoenix team at a transitional point in the organization's story. Our next guest is Tina Shauf-Bajar, the incoming director of this local organization, supporting queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islander Youth. As a reminder throughout this conversation, you'll hear us referring to the org as both Lavender, Phoenix and Lani.     Miata Tan: Hi Tina. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Hi Miata.  Miata Tan: How you going today? Tina Shauf-Bajar: I'm doing well, thank you. How are you? Miata Tan: Yeah, not so bad. Just excited to speak with you. tell me more about yourself what's bringing you into Lavender Phoenix. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Sure, sure. Well I am the incoming executive director of Lavender Phoenix. Prior to this, I was working at the California Domestic Workers Coalition [00:35:00] and had also worked at the Filipino Community Center and, um, have done some grassroots organizing, building, working class power, um, over the last 20 years, of my time in the Bay Area. And I've been alongside Lavender Phoenix as an organization that I've admired for a long time. Um, and now at the beginning of this year, I was I had the opportunity to apply for this executive director position and talked with un, um, had a series of conversations with UN about, um, what this role looks like and I got really excited about being a part of this organization. Miata Tan: That's super cool. So you, you, you weren't quite in the space with Lavender Phoenix, but moving alongside them through your work, like what were what were the organizations that you were part of when you were, were working in tandem, I guess. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well the organization that I feel like is most, most closely, relates with Lavender. Phoenix is, [00:36:00] um, Gabriela, which is a Filipino organization. It's a Filipino organization that's a part of a national democratic movement of the Philippines. And we advance national democracy in the Philippines. And, liberation for our people and our homeland. Sovereignty for our homeland. And Gabriela here in the US does organizing with other multi-sectoral organizations, including like migrant organizations, like Ante and youth organizations like Naan and we organize in diaspora. And the reason for that is because many of our families actually leave the Philippines due to, um, corrupt government governance, um, also like foreign domination and exploitation and plunder of our resources. And so many of us actually have to leave our countries to, to survive. And so we're still very connected. Gabriela is still very connected to, [00:37:00] um, the movement in the Philippines. And yeah, so we're advancing liberation for our people and have been alongside Lavender Phoenix for many years. And here we are. Miata Tan: That's beautiful. I love hearing about, all of these partnerships and, and colLavoration works that happen in the San Francisco Bay Area and, and beyond as well. it sounds like you're speaking from a personal place when you talk about, um, a lot of these immigrant communities. Could you speak more to your family background and what brings you into this? Tina Shauf-Bajar: The, the fight for immigrant justice? So I was born in the Philippines and um, I spent my childhood and adolescent since the, in the South Bay of LA and then came here to the Bay Area in the year 2000. Flashing back to when my parents immigrated here, my dad's family first came to the US um, by way of the Bay Area in the late sixties and [00:38:00] early seventies. My dad actually was a few years after he had arrived, was uh, drafted into the military so that they can send him to Vietnam, but instead of going to Vietnam, he took the test to go into the Air Force and traveled everywhere in the Air Force and ended up in the Philippines and met my, met my mom there. And so. That became like they got married and they had me, I was born in the Philippines. I have a younger sibling. And, um, and I think, um, growing up in, in a working class immigrant neighborhood black and brown neighborhood, um, it was always important to me to like find solidarity between. Between communities. I actually grew up in a neighborhood that didn't have a lot of Filipinos in it, but I, I felt that solidarity knowing that we were an immigrant family, immigrant, working class family. And when I was in [00:39:00] college, when I went to college up in, in Berkeley, um, that was the time when the war on Iraq was waged by the US. I got really I got really curious and interested in understanding why war happens and during that time I, I feel like I, I studied a lot in like ethnic studies classes, Asian American studies classes and also, got involved in like off campus organizing and um, during that time it was with the Filipinos for Global Justice Not War Coalition. I would mobilize in the streets, in the anti-war movement during that time. Um, and from there I met a lot of the folks in the national democratic movement of the Philippines and eventually joined an organization which is now known as Gabriela. And so. That was my first political home that allowed me to understand my family's experience as [00:40:00] immigrants and why it's important to, to advance our rights and defend our, defend our people. And also with what's happening now with the escalated violence on our communities it. It's our duty to help people understand that immigrants are not criminals and our people work really hard to, to provide for our families and that it's our human right to be able to work and live in dignity, uh, just like anyone else. Miata Tan: You are speaking to something really powerful there. The different communities that you've been involved with, within the Filipino diaspora, but who are some other immigrant folks that you feel like have really helped shape your political awakening and, and coming into this space, and also how that leads into your work with Lav Nix today?  Tina Shauf-Bajar: When I was working at the Filipino [00:41:00] community center that gave me a, gave me a chance to learn to work with other organizations that were also advancing, like workers' rights and immigrant rights. Many centers in San Francisco that, um, work with immigrant workers who. Wouldn't typically like fall into the category of union unionized workers. They were like workers who are work in the domestic work industry who are caregivers, house cleaners and also we worked with organizations that also have organized restaurant workers, hotel workers. In like non-union, in a non-union setting. And so to me I in integrating in community like that, it helped me really understand that there were many workers who were experiencing exploitation at really high levels. And that reregulate like regulation of, um, Lavor laws and things like that, it's like really. [00:42:00] Unregulated industries that really set up immigrant workers in, in really poor working conditions. Sometimes abusive conditions and also experiencing wage theft. And for me, that really moved me and in my work with Gabriela and the community and the Filipino Community Center, we were able to work with, um. Teachers who actually were trafficked from the Philippines. These teachers actually, they did everything right to try to get to the, the US to get teaching jobs. And then they ended up really paying exorbitant amount of, of money to like just get processed and make it to the us. To only find themselves in no teaching jobs and then also working domestic work jobs just to like survive. And so during that time, it really like raised my consciousness to understand that there was something bigger that wa that was happening. The, [00:43:00] the export of our people and exploitation of our people was happening, not just at a small scale, but I learned over time that. Thousands of Filipinos actually leave the Philippines every day just to find work and send money back to their families. And to me that just was like throughout my time being an activist and organizer it was important to me to like continue to, to like advance poor, working class power. And that I see that as a through line between many communities. And I know that like with my work in Lav Nix that the folks who experience it the most and who are most impacted by right-wing attacks and authoritarianism are people who are at the fringes. And born working class trans and queer people. Within our [00:44:00] sector. So yeah. Being rooted in this, in this principle of advancing foreign working class power is really core to my to my values in any work that I do. Miata Tan: What are some other key issue Areas you see that are facing this community and especially queer folks within Asian American communities today? Tina Shauf-Bajar: The administration that we're under right now works really hard to drive wedges between. All of us and, um, sewing division is one of the t tactics to continue to hoard power. And with Lavender Phoenix being a trans and queer API organization that's building power, it's important for us to understand that solidarity is a thing that that's gonna strengthen us. That that trans and queer folks are used as wedges in, in [00:45:00] conservative thinking. I'm not saying that like it's just conservatives, but there's conservative thinking in many of our cultures to think that trans and queer folks are not, are not human, and that we deserve less and we don't deserve to be recognized as. As fully human and deserve to live dignified lives in our full selves. I also know that locally in San Francisco, the API community is used as a wedge to be pitted against other communities. Let's say the black commun the black community. And, um, it's important for us as an organization to recognize that that we, we can position ourselves to like wield more solidarity and be in solidarity with, with communities that are experiencing the impacts of a system that continues to exploit our people and [00:46:00] continues to view our people as not fully deserving. Not fully human and that our people deserve to be detained, abducted, and deported. That our people deserve to not be taken care of and resourced and not have our basic needs like housing and food and healthcare and it impacts all of us. And so, I see our responsibility as Lavender Phoenix, and, and in the other organizing spaces that I'm a part of that it, it is our responsibility to expose that we are not each other's enemies. Hmm. And that we are stronger in fighting for our needs and our dignity together. Miata Tan: Community. [00:47:00] Community and strength. I'm thinking about what you said in terms of this, the API solidarity alongside queer folks, alongside black and brown folks. Do you have a, perhaps like a nice memory of that, that coming together? Tina Shauf-Bajar: So one of the most consistent, things that I would go to, that's, that Lavender Phoenix would, would lead year after year in the last 10 years is Trans March. And my partner and I always make sure that we mobilize out there and be with Laxs. And it's important to us to be out there. in more recent trans marches. Just with a lot of the escalation of violence in Gaza and ongoing genocide and also just the escalated attacks on on immigrants and increased right and increased ice raids. [00:48:00] And and also the, we can't forget the police, the Police killings of black people. And I feel like at Trans March with Lavender Phoenix, it's also a way for us to come together and you know, put those messages out there and show that we are standing with all these different communities that are fighting, repression, And it's always so joyful at Trans March too. We're like chanting and we're holding up our signs. We're also out there with or you know, people, individuals, and organizations that might not be politically aligned with us, but that's also a chance for us to be in community and, and show demonstrate this solidarity between communities. Miata Tan: It's so beautiful to see. It's, it's just like what a colorful event in so many ways. Uh, as you now step into the director role at Lav [00:49:00] Nix, Lavender Phoenix, what are you most excited about? What is 2026 gonna look like for you? Tina Shauf-Bajar: I am most excited about integrating into this organization fully as the executive director and I feel so grateful that this organization is trusting me to lead alongside them. I've had the chance to have conversations with lots of conversations since, since my time onboarding in August through our meetings and also like strategy sessions where I've been able to connect with staff and members and understand what they care about, how they're thinking about. Our our strategy, how we can make our strategy sharper and more coordinated, um, so that we can show up in, in a more unified way, um, not just as an organization, but, but as a part of a larger movement ecosystem that we're a part of [00:50:00] and that we're in solidarity with other organizations in. So I am looking forward to like really embodying that.  it takes a lot of trust for an organization to be like, look, you, you weren't one of our members. You weren't a part of our staff prior to this, but we are trusting you because we've been in community and relationship with you and we have seen you. And so I just feel really grateful for that. Miata Tan: For an organization like Lav Nix, which with such a rich history in, in the Bay Area is there anything from. That history that you are now taking into 2026 with you? Tina Shauf-Bajar: Yeah, I mean, I think in seeing how Lavender Phoenix has transformed over the last 10 years is really not being afraid to transform. Not being afraid to step even more fully into [00:51:00] our power. The organization is really well positioned to yeah, well positioned to build power in, in a larger community. And so I, I feel like I've seen that transformation and I get to also, I get to also continue that legacy after UN and also the previous leaders before that and previous members and staff, um, we stand on the, on their shoulders. I stand on their shoulders. it's so beautiful, like such a nice image. Everyone together, yeah, no, totally. I mean, just in the last few weeks, I, I've connected with the three executive directors before me. And so when I say. I stand on their shoulders and like I'm a part of this lineage I still have access to. And then I've also been able to connect with, you know with a movement elder just last week where I was like, wow, you know, I get [00:52:00] to be a part of this because I'm now the executive director of this organization. Like, I also get to inherit. Those connections and I get to inherit the work that has been done up to this point. And I feel really grateful and fortunate to be inheriting that and now being asked to take care of it so. and I know I'm not alone. I think that's what people keep saying. It's like, you're not, you know, you're not alone. Right. I'm like, yeah. I keep telling myself that. It's true. It's true, it's true. Miata Tan: Latinx has a strong core team and a whole range of volunteers that also aid in, in, in your work, and I'm sure everyone will, everyone will be there to make sure that you don't like the, the, the shoulders are stable that you're standing on. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Totally, totally. I mean, even the conversations that I've been a part of, I'm like, I'm the newest one here. Like, I wanna hear from you, [00:53:00] like, what, how are you thinking about this? There is so much desire to see change and be a part of it. And also so much brilliance like and experience to being a part of this organization. So yeah, absolutely. I'm not alone. Miata Tan: One final question as with youth really being at the center of, of Lav Nix's work. Is there something about that that you're excited just, just to get into next year and, and thinking about those, those young people today that are you know, maybe not quite sure what's going on, the world looks a little scary. Like what, what can, what are you excited about in terms of helping those, those folks? Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well, for a long time I, I worked with youth years ago before I before I found myself in like workers justice and workers' rights building working class power. I also worked with working class [00:54:00] youth at one point, and I, I was one of those youth like 20 years ago. And so, I know what my energy was like during that time. I also know how I also remember how idealistic I was and I remember how bright-eyed it was. And like really just there wasn't openness to learn and understand how I could also be an agent of change and that I didn't have to do that alone. That I could be a part of something bigger than myself. And so so yeah, I think that like wielding the power of the youth in our communities and the different sectors is I think in a lot of ways they're the ones leaving us, they know, they know what issues speak to, to them. This is also the world they're inheriting. they have the energy to be able to like and lived experience to be able to like, see through change in their lifetime. And you know, I'm, [00:55:00] I'm older than them. I'm older than a lot of them, but, I also can remember, like I, I can look back to that time and I know, I know that I had the energy to be able to like, you know, organize and build movement and, and really see myself as, as a, as someone who could be a part of that. My first week here in, in August I actually was able to, to meet the, the, um, summer organizer, the summer organizers from our program. And I was, it just warms my heart because I remember being that young and I remember, remember being that like determined to like figure out like, what is my place in, in organizing spaces. So they were the ones who really like, radically welcomed me at first. You know, like I came into the office and like we were co-working and they were the ones who radically welcomed me and like showed me how they show up in, in, um, [00:56:00] Lav Nix Spaces. I learned from them how to fundraise, like how Lavender Phoenix does it, how we fundraise. And um, one of them fundraised me and I was like, I was like, how can I say no? Like they yeah. That we need that type of energy to keep it fresh. Miata Tan: something about that that, um. It is exciting to think about when thinking about the future. Thank you so much for joining us, Tina. This was such a beautiful conversation. I'm so excited for all of your work. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Thank you so much.  Miata Tan: That was Tina Shauf-Bajar, the incoming executive director at Lavender Phoenix. You can learn more about the organization and their fantastic work at LavenderPhoenix.org. We thank all of you listeners out there, and in the words of Keiko Fukuda, a Japanese American judoka and Bay Area legend, “be strong, be [00:57:00] gentle, be beautiful”. A little reminder for these trying times. For show notes, please check our website at kpfa.org/program/APEX-express. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight's show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest y'all. Good night. The post APEX Express – 12.25.25 -A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter appeared first on KPFA.

What makes us fall in love with a character in the first five minutes? Amy, Megan, and Lia explain "Save the Cat" moments—the scenes that instantly make us root for someone before we even know their story. From unexpected acts of kindness to revealing vulnerabilities, they dissect how the best dramas hook us emotionally and why some characters stay with us. Whether you're a casual viewer or a storytelling obsessive, this conversation will change how you watch your favorite shows.K-Pop Rec of the Week: Not Cute Any More by IllitSave the Cat: The Language of StorytellingReady to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

In today's episode, Megan and Sarah (from AfterNoona Asks) discuss Black Out, an unforgettable 2024 drama with more twists than a pretzel. Just a note, we recorded this podcast in July of 2025. Sorry for the delay in getting it out!Ready to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Before there was the Chinese Exclusion Act, there was the Page Act. Passed in 1875 amid growing anti-Chinese sentiment in the 19th century, the Page Act was one of the first national immigration laws in the United States. It targeted several categories of people, including contract laborers from Asia, women brought in for sex work and certain convicted criminals. In practice, however, it functioned mainly to restrict Chinese and other Asian women from entering the country.“It had enormous implications for the issues of race, gender and labor in U.S. immigration history and Asian American history,” says UC Berkeley history professor Hidetaka Hirota, who moderated a campus discussion in April to mark the Page Act's 150th anniversary.In this Berkeley Talks episode, a panel of Berkeley scholars unpack how the Page Act helped institutionalize racially targeted exclusion and gendered surveillance at the border, and how it laid the groundwork for the 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act and later immigration laws. They also challenge the enduring myth of the “white bootstrapping ethnic,” supposedly living “the right way” without state support, showing instead how immigration and welfare regimes were structured to advantage European newcomers while systematically excluding Asians and other people of color.Panelists include Catherine Ceniza Choy, professor of ethnic studies; Cybelle Fox, professor of sociology; Leti Volpp, professor of law; and Hidetaka Hirota, associate professor of history, who moderated the conversation. The event, which took place on April 23, was hosted by Berkeley's Social Science Matrix and was co-sponsored by the Berkeley Interdisciplinary Migration Initiative, the Department of Sociology, the Department of History, the Department of Ethnic Studies, the Asian American Research Center and the Center for Race and Gender.Watch a video of the discussion.Listen to the episode and read the transcript on UC Berkeley News (news.berkeley.edu/podcasts/berkeley-talks).Music by HoliznaCC0.Photo from the National Archives. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

There's an unspoken hierarchy in TV here where romance is tolerated as a subplot but rarely trusted to carry a series. Why do you think American platforms are comfortable betting hundreds of millions on crime, fantasy, and superheroes but get nervous about a straightforward love story? This week, your noonas tackle this very questions and are making a plea to the streaming channels. We know romance. We know K-dramas. Please, for the love of the highest grossing genre in publishing, hear us out as to why we need to follow the K-Drama model and adapt more romance novels for the small screen.Books Mentioned on This EpisodeRaiders of the Lost Heart by Jo SeguraHamartia by Scarlett DrakeA Night To Surrender by Tessa DareI Love You Like it's 1999 by AJ PinePlaying For Her Heart by Megan EricksonThe E.M.M.A. Effect by Lia RileyReady to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – December 4, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

For this month's uncensored, Lia put together a few winter themed K-drama games for the group to play. Join us for some "Hear me out..." snowball, some naughty or nice K-drama superlatives, and what K-Drama moments/experiences have been our highlights of 2025.*Spoiler warning...Amy accidentally spoils the end of My Dearest without warning at 19:45 when she reads a Patreon "Hear me out..." If you don't want to be spoiled, skip ahead to 20:11! All other spoilers are announced!Ready to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

While Cathleen and I are working on new content for the podcast—lots of great episodes are on the way—we're also taking time to revisit some of Michael's excellent past interviews.For my second “best of” pick, I chose Episode 54, The Allure of Empire, which first aired on July 4, 2023. In this episode, Michael talks with historian Chris Suh about his award-winning book The Allure of Empire: American Encounters with Asians in the Age of Transpacific Expansion and Exclusion. Suh's work invites us to rethink the Gilded Age and Progressive Era through the lens of empire—tracing how U.S. expansion in the Pacific intertwined with racial exclusion and the politics of belonging at home.It's a rich, thought-provoking conversation that shows how the legacies of the Gilded Age still shape America's place in the world today.We hope you'll enjoy (re)listening as much as we did—and, as always, we'd love to hear which past episodes have been your favourites!Essential Reading:Chris Suh, The Allure of Empire: American Encounters with Asians in the Age of Transpacific Expansion and Exclusion (2023).Recommended Reading:David C. Atkinson, The Burden of White Supremacy: Containing Asian Migration in the British Empire and the United States (2016).Eiichiro Azuma, Between Two Empires: Race, History, and Transnationalism in Japanese America (2005).Thomas Bender, A Nation among Nations: America's Place in World History (2006).Akira Iriye, Pacific Estrangement: Japanese and American Expansion, 1897– 1911 (1972).Richard S. Kim, The Quest for Sovereignty: Korean Immigration Nationalism and U.S. Sovereignty, 1905– 1945 (2011). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Important Links We Belong Here campaign page We Belong Here Partner organizations: Asian Law Caucus |Asian Refugees United | Hmong Innovating Politics | Hmong Family Association of Lansing | Rising Voices Transcript Nina Phillips: Hello and welcome. You are tuning into APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans. I'm your host Nina Phillips, and tonight we are doing something a little different. Earlier this month on Monday, November 3rd, communities of Hmong and Nepali speaking, Bhutanese Americans, fellow immigrants and allies, gathered together at a virtual [00:01:00] community event called We Belong Here. The goal: to shed light on the continued detainment and deportation of immigrant communities in the United States and the specific challenges faced by Bhutanese, Hmong, and Southeast Asian folks.  Tika Basnet: When, uh, my husband got detained on April 8, I took one week after to reach out Aisa and she told me, Hey Tika, come forward, you know, your story is powerful. People need to know your story.  Nina Phillips: That was the voice of Tika Basnet. Her husband, Mohan Karki is a Nepali speaking Bhutanese refugee from Ohio who has spent months in ICE detention, trapped in legal limbo. Tika has been working tirelessly to bring her husband home and shared her story with us at We Belong Here. Tonight, we are bringing you a recording of this virtual community gathering. You'll hear more from Tika about the Free Mohan Karki campaign and from Ann Vue, [00:02:00] the spouse of Lue Yang, a Hmong community leader from Michigan, who is also currently detained and facing deportation. Ann is leading the movement to Bring Lue Home, and we'll be sharing more later about how you can get involved as well and support both of these campaigns. You will also hear from state representatives of Michigan and Ohio, the music and spoken word performance of Asian Refugees United, and community tools and resources that a vital in helping to keep our immigrant loved ones safe. The host of this community event was Miko Lee, APEX producer, and a voice that you might be familiar with. Alrighty, without further ado, here's Miko. Miko Lee: We belong here. What we recognize right now is there's almost. 60,000 people being held in detention right now, immigrants that are being held in detention. It is a pandemic that is happening in our country that's impacting all of our people, and we need [00:03:00] to be able to take action. Tonight we're talking very specifically, not with this 60,000 people that are in detention now, but just two of those stories, so that you can get a sense of what is happening in the Bhutanese and Hmong communities and what's happening right now, and to talk about those particular stories and some actions you can take. First I wanna recognize that right now we are on native lands, so all of us except our original indigenous people, are from other places and I'd invite you to go into the chat and find your native land. I am speaking with you from the unceded Ohlone land, and I wanna honor these ancestors, these elders that have provided for us and provided this beautiful land for us to be on. So I invite you to share into the chat your name, your pronoun, and also what indigenous land you are living on right now in this Native American Heritage Month. Thank you so much to all of you that have joined [00:04:00] us. We are really seeing the impact of this administration on all of our peoples, and particularly tonight in terms of the Hmong and Nepali speaking, Bhutanese communities. These are communities that have been impacted, specifically refugee communities that have been impacted in incredible detrimental ways by this administration. And tonight what we really wanna do is talk to you about what is going on in our communities. We wanted to make sure we translated so that we have as much access into our communities as possible because we wanna be as inclusive of our world as we can. We Belong Here is focusing on the fact that all of us belong here. We belong in this land, and we are telling these stories tonight in the context of these sets of people particularly that have so many similarities in terms of Hmong folks who worked with our US government and worked with our US military during the Vietnam War and then came [00:05:00] here as refugees and stayed in this country to the Nepali speaking Bhutanese folks, who left their country from ethnic cleansing and then went into refugee camps and now took refuge in the United States. So these are all stories that are impactful and powerful, and it's really what it means to be American. we have come from different places. We see these attacks on our people. right now I would like to bring to the fore two empowering women, refugees themselves. Hailing from places as different as Somalia and Southeast Asia, and they're gonna talk about some of the detention and deportations that are happening right now. First I'd like to focus on Rep Mai Xiong, who's from Michigan's 13th District. I hand it over to the representative.  Rep. Mai Xiong: Good evening everyone. I'm state representative,  Mai Xiong, and it is a pleasure to meet all of you virtually. I'm coming to you from Warren, Macomb County, Michigan, and I represent the 13th [00:06:00] house of district, uh, the communities of Warren Roseville and St. Claire Shores. I've lived here in Michigan for over 20 years now. I came to the United States at a very young age, was born in a refugee camp and came here when I was three years old. So I grew up in Ohio. And then I moved to Michigan to attend college. Never thought that I would ever be serving in the State House. I previously served as a county commissioner here in Macomb. And, uh, last year when President Trump got elected, I had very quiet fears that as a naturalized citizen, that even I did not feel safe given the, um. The failure in our immigration system. So we have seen that play out, uh, with this administration, with the, attempts to get rid of birthright citizenship de-naturalization. And, you hear the rhetoric from officials about, deporting the worst of the worst criminal, illegal aliens. And we [00:07:00] know, as Miko mentioned in, in her introduction, that, refugees came here through a legal pathway. The Hmong in particular served alongside America during the Vietnam War and were persecuted from Laos. So my parents fled Laos. And so growing up I didn't have, uh, citizenship. Um, and so we have seen, uh, in this administration that refugees are now caught up in this, immigration effort to get rid of people who came here through legal pathways Lue is a father. He is a community leader. Uh, he is a well-respected member of our community as all of these individuals are. And at some point our system failed them and we are working extremely hard, to get their stories out. But what I have found with many of these families is that they are, uh, afraid to come forward. They are ashamed. There is a stigma involved and, uh, culturally, as many of you may [00:08:00] know, if you are of Asian American descent, and a fear of, uh, retaliation. And as the only Hmong American elected here in Michigan, I'm grateful that I have, uh, the ability to.  have those connections and to be such a visible, uh, member of my community that many of these individuals. Felt comfortable enough to reach out to me. But the reality is back in July we didn't know anything other than, the number of people who were detained. And that was through a firsthand account from loved ones who you know, were accompanying their loved one and got detained. And so it was literally like trying to find missing people and then getting the word out to let them know that, hey, there's actually, there's help out there. The volunteer attorneys, the nonprofits, the Immigration Rights Center, uh, here in Michigan, I mean, everybody has been doing a phenomenal job because I think the majority, the vast majority of Americans understand that, um, these [00:09:00] individuals that are being taken out of our communities are not a, a threat to society. They are members of our community. They've lived here for decades. They have jobs, they have children. And when you when you take an individual out of our community, it actually does more harm then it does to make any one of us safe. So that's the message that I have been sharing with others, uh, not only in having a connection and being a refugee just like these individuals, but advocating for them and making it clear that these are our neighbors, these are our children's classmates, parents, and it doesn't make any one of us feel safer. One of the things I am. Upset about that I continue to talk about is that we're not actually in a immigration crisis. We share here in Michigan, we share an international border with Canada, and we have never had an issue with border security. The [00:10:00] problem is the policies that have been put in place, that these individuals have been caught up in our immigration system for decades, and it is extremely hard for them to obtain citizenship or to even know what their rights are. And so we really need, in addition to advocating for these families, we need immigration reform. Throwing money at a problem is not going to solve the problem. If anything, we have are, we are in an economic crisis. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining. Um, I'd love to turn the baton over to another one of our powerful women representatives, Rep. Munira Abdullah from Ohio's Ninth District. Rep Abdullah. We pass it over to you. Thank you so much.  Rep. Munira Abdullahi: Uh, thank you for having me and also Rep Mai Xiong, it is really great to see you. I'm grateful to have been able to see you go from Commissioner to State Rep, doing amazing things on social media as well. I'm very, a big fan. Uh, my name is Munira Abdullahi. I represent District Nine in Ohio, which is in the Columbus area. Northland, [00:11:00] uh, Manette Park. Uh, a little bit of New Albany in Westerville city schools. Um, I'm also a refugee. My family fled Somalia and Civil War, and I was born in refugee camp in Kenya. And then we came to the United States when I was about two, three years old, uh, and ended up moving to Ohio when I was like four. First moved to Utah, salt Lake City, Utah, and then to Ohio when I was about five years old. And so I certainly understand the fear of being an immigrant in a new country and, um, struggling to belong and figure out where are your place is. And, and also just adjusting to a whole new society, um, with the language barriers and, and all of the the barriers are in the way. And then that fear of, your immigration status. You know, before my parents were, you know, passed their, their, uh, citizenship test, right. It was very scary. Um, and I know many families who feel the same way right now, especially with this new administration. Um, with the OCE raids that are happening that are really disrupting our communities and our [00:12:00] families. Um, we have a, a, a cons, a constituent of mine, um, who is now, uh, in prison. We have, uh, have a couple actually. One is Leonardo Faso, and then I know one we're gonna talk about soon is Mohan Karki, who is his family, I believe, is on this call. Uh, and he was taken by ICE. And he's, uh, you know, the, the breadwinner and the, the caregiver of his family. And so it's really important not to forget that a lot of these people who are being taken by ICE are like the breadwinners and, and, and the caretakers of these families. And now the family's left with a hole, uh, in their, in their home. And so, we really need to remember to take care of these families. I know there's gonna be a GoFundMe that that will be shared. Um, but finding these families and supporting them. Um, in any way that we can monetary, you know, checking on them, giving, you know, helping them with food. Now we have SNAP benefits are being cut for many, many, many Americans. We are struggling as is, but immigrants in particular are struggling a lot, lot more, um, with these raids and, and with the uncertainties. But one thing I wanna remind everyone is that, you know, through community we [00:13:00] find strength. And so that, um, understanding, you know, where our communities are, where people are suffering and finding our place and helping with that, right? Whether that might, might be, uh, maybe we have the financial capabilities to, to support, maybe we can cook for someone. Um, maybe we can advocate where, where we have the ability to advocate. Whatever we can do, we have a responsibility to do it. Um, and there are successes. I know in Ohio it's a little different where we can't really advocate anything on the state level because it's like they, we just make things worse. We're in a very rough, super minority, the Democrats and super minority, and we have bills in the State House we're trying to fight against that are trying to make it worse, where we're trying to get rid of Republicans in the State House are trying to get rid of like a sanctuary cities, um, and penalize cities that don't engage, uh, or don't cooperate with ICE. Um, we have currently a bill, which actually this is, this might be more of a, on a positive note, is we had a bill house bill one. That sought to ban immigrants, certain immigrants from owning land in certain areas. [00:14:00] But because of community engagement, because of advocacy, because of collaboration with community advocacy groups, that Bill was effectively paused. Like, as of now, it's paused because people came and advocated. They spoke to their representatives, they testified, they called, they protested, um, they had press conferences. They brought so much attention to the bill, and it just became so. Obvious that people don't want this bill. And that pressure really got to the majority in the State House. And that bill has been paused, right? It was created to keep Chinese Americans from buying land specifically. Um, and that list can change, by the way. It's an, it's a, a rotating list. The Secretary of State can add whatever countries that they want to, that list, so it's very harmful. But the Asian American community came together alongside with us representatives in the State House and, and effectively like paused that bill. So there's there are positive things we could, we could achieve as a community when we fight together and communicate and stand with one another regardless of our nationality. We're all struggling here. We're [00:15:00] all in the same place. We're all, uh, in need of one another. And that's why I was reminding people was like, when we are in need of one another. And when one person is struggling, we should all be feeling that.  Miko Lee: Thank you  Rep Munira. Thank you so much for joining us. And yes, we are all part of a collective community that needs to be working together. And Rep Munira talked about Mohan Karki and next we're gonna see a short video performance that was created by Asian refugees United, uh, Maxine Hong Kingston said, “in a time of destruction, create something”. So we're gonna watch this video that was created. Uh, it's a shortcut of a performance by Asian Refugees United. Nina Phillips: Hello, it's APEX Express host Nina Phillips here chiming in with a couple words on this performance. It's a very music and spoken word forward piece, so you should get a good sense of the production through just the audio. The youth performers from Asian Refugees United do a wonderful job of embodying the story of Mohan Karki and his family through music and [00:16:00] movement and dance as well. Very evocative. If you'd like to see this short video clip in full, with the visuals, please visit the website of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality. That's accre.org/our-voices/webelonghere.  Enjoy the show. ARU Performer: Mohan Karki, I was detained by an ICE officer to be deported to a country that I never been to. A country. That I don't belong to [00:17:00] a country I wasn't born to, that I don't speak the language of. When they moved me to a detention center in Michigan, I called my wife Tika. They're taking me, I told her my voice was calm, but inside I was breaking into a million pieces. It felt like a goodbye, not just to her, but to the life we built together to the dreams that we planted seeds for. I was just 17 years old when I decided who I was before I could even speak up for myself. I stand here as a victim of an unjust system that never gave me a chance.[00:18:00]  I am a man with purpose. I worked hard. I drove trucks. I supported my family, and I loved my wife Tika, and waited for the day that I would finally meet our baby. [Speaks in Nepali] How do I tell my daughter that leaving her was never my choice? Now I wait for the news. Now would completely change everything. Will they send me back to Bhutan? Will I be deported like the ones before me? No one talks about what happens to us [00:19:00] once we're gone. We vanish. Into silence. Where do I belong?  You belong here. They belong here. We belong here. [Singing in Nepali] [Speaks in Nepali] What type of future do we wanna build? A future where we can all belong? A future where we can coexist, [00:20:00] coexist in nature. And coexist with each other. A future where another Mohan Karki does not have to fear of being displaced all over again. A future where Mohan Karki does not have to be separated from his new born baby girl. A place where people like Mohan Carkey can have home, a future and community, a future with family, a future and harmony. A future to heal. A future to grow. Above all, a future to belong. I hope the future is more generous to all of us. [Singing in [00:21:00] Nepali] Miko Lee: Can you all give it up in the chat for those performers. Nawal was our interpreter at the very beginning of this, and to show the power of how art can transform things at that performance, the ACLU was there. And actually because of that, we were able to find a pro bono lawyer to be able to help with one of, uh, Mohans Habeas Corpuses cases and just that's an example of Asian refugees United, that was their work before all of these detentions were going on. It was youth empowerment and storytelling, but they had to pivot, given the shape of our world. I wanna transition us to our panel of speakers of powerful. Again, powerful women. [00:22:00] Um, Ann Vue who is the spouse of Lue Yang, Tika Bassett, who is the spouse of Mohan Karki and Aisa Villarosa, who has been our brilliant, dedicated lawyer from Asian Law Caucus working on this. So we're not gonna go over and tell the entire stories of each of these people and what happened to them. And if you want that, you can listen to the radio show that we did on APEX Express. Tika, I wanted to start with you and just hear from you, what is your response after watching that video about your husband? Tika Basnet: Yeah, it is really beautiful story. Um, thank you ARU for, um, representing my husband story. Um, it just make, make me cry and I was crying while watching the video and it remind me what happened. Since seven month ago. And, um, yeah. Hi, my name is Tika Basnet. I'm from Ohio and I've been fighting for my husband deportation and detention since seven month ago. Without the community and without all the [00:23:00] support that I got from organization, I don't think it is possible that my husband will still be here. And the reason that this is possible is because I reach out to them without getting fear, without getting afraid of what will happen if I speak outside. So, um, yeah, um, it is really difficult. What is going on right now. Sometime I don't wanna speak because of the current policy. Uh, it make me feel, even though I'm US citizen, um, sometime I feel like if I speak something against the policy, I, they will might, they might gonna take my citizenship away. And then, um, I realized that, if I speak then it'll help me. Right now, um, ICE is not letting my husband come home, even though it is been seven month and our attorney try everything in a possible way. Uh, the ICE is not letting my husband come out. I dunno how long it'll take. I don't know. don't wanna, yeah. Thank you.  Miko Lee: No, you can speak more. Tika. Do you wanna add?  Tika Basnet: Yeah, um, especially I wanna thank you [00:24:00] ARU and Aisa and Miko. Everything is happening right now is because of them, because I reached out to them. If I did not, I feel like my husband is story will be one of those Bhutanese people that disappear. I don't know what happened to them. I hope, uh, the reason that I'm fighting for my husband case is because he deserve fear. Uh, he has a family member here. He has a community that loves him. He was supporting his parent, he was supporting us. We don't have a country. Um, this is our country and we belong here. Thank you.  Miko Lee: You. Thank you, Tika. I wanna bring Ann Vue up to speak about your husband, Lue Yang and his case and what's going on with his case. Very complicated case. What is going on with his case right now?  Ann Vue: So first of all,  Thank you guys so much for. Giving Tika and I this space just to share our stories of families who are fighting every day, um, just to stay together. So [00:25:00] currently with Lue's case right now we are, we just got his, um, stay of removal approved the emergency stay of removal approved. I might, um, have the right lingo for that, but, uh, so as of October 22nd our Michigan governor's, pardon was issued for Lue. So we were so grateful for that. I know our, our Michigan lawmakers are working around the clock uh, Michigan DHS team to bring him back to Michigan, uh, where we have a petition currently filed for his release while his case, uh, is ongoing. Miko Lee: Thanks Ann. And I just wanna point out that there's in, even though these communities are distinct and these two men are distinct, beautiful individuals, there are so many commonalities between the two. Um, both born in refugee camps, both in one case, the Bhutanese, the Nepali speaking Bhutanese, folks having escaped ethnic cleansing to then go to a. Uh, [00:26:00] refugee camp to then come to the US and in another families who worked with the American government in the Secret War in Vietnam, who then again became refugees and came to the US. Two young men who when they were young, like very young, um, with their peers, were involved in incidents that had, uh, really bad legal advice. That did not help them in the process. And that is why even though they're amazing contributing members in our current society, they have this past old, almost like childhood record that is impacting them. And both of them are impacted by statelessness because. Even though they're being deported, they're being deported to a place of which it is not their home. They might not speak that language. They might not have connections with that. Their home is here in America. Um, that is why we say use the terminology we belong here. Um, before we go a little bit more into personal stories [00:27:00] I saw from Asian Law Caucus, I wonder if you can give a little bit of an overview about the broader, legal actions that are taking place around these kidnappings.  Aisa Villarosa: Yeah, thanks Miko. And just huge love to Ann and Tika. Reiterating that these are two refugee communities bonded through not just this frustrating, heartbreaking experience, um, but also this, this solidarity that's building. To share Miko, about the broader legal ramifications, and there was a question in the chat about what's the big deal about a stay of removal? So just for starters, the system that Mohan and Lue got pulled into can be lightning quick with removing folks. Part of this is because Mohan, Lue, so many folks in refugee communities all across the country years and years ago, perhaps when they were teenagers, just like Mohan and Lue, uh, there might have been some sort of, run in with law enforcement. Oftentimes racial profiling [00:28:00] can be involved, especially with the over-policing, right in our country, decades later, after living peacefully in their communities. Oftentimes decades after an immigration judge said to Mohan, said to Lue, you are not a safety risk. You are not a threat to the community. You've done your time. You can come home. Uh, maybe some folks had some ICE check-ins that they would come to every year. Um, and then with this administration, this unprecedented attack on immigrant and refugee rights, that is when we started to see for the very first time as folks have mentioned, these broad deportations, uh, to countries that previously were not accepting refugees primarily because that is the same country of their ancestral persecution. Um, in some cases they have zero connection to the country. Um, and in cases like the Bhutanese refugees, they're actually [00:29:00] expelled from Bhutan when they're removed. Again, all this is happening for the very first time. There are some serious legal questions with due process. Even if immigration court does run on a similar track as a lot of our other court systems, there's still a duty of fairness and often that duty is completely neglected.  Nina Phillips: You are tuned into Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. Coming up is Klezmer Dances II by The Daniel Pelton Collective.  [00:30:00] [00:31:00] [00:32:00] That was  Klezmer Dances II by The Daniel Pelton Collective. You are tuned into APEX Express [00:33:00] on 94.1 KPFA. Now back to Miko and her conversation with Tika Basnet and Ann Vue. Two incredibly strong women who are leading campaigns to bring home their respective spouses from ICE detention, and Aisa Villarosa with the Asian Law Caucus. Miko Lee: I would love to speak to a little bit more of the uplifting power of these women that are being highlighted right now. And I'm wondering both for Ann and Tika, if you could talk a little bit about your sense of resilience. because both of your spouses were, even though when they were youth, there were systems impacted in our Asian American communities. There's some shame that's associated with that. And so some people have been really hesitant to speak out. Can you talk a little bit about what encouraged you to speak out on behalf of your husband and how that has made a difference for you in the community? And I'm gonna start with Ann first.  Ann Vue: So I would say, um. In the [00:34:00] beginning when Lue was first detained on July 15th. I was scared. I am the first generation born American, uh, um, right here in Michigan. And even myself, I was so scared to say anything to anyone. I remember getting that call from Lue and it just felt so unreal. Quickly playing back to 2008, uh, which would be the third time that the embassy, Laos and Thailand both rejected Lue's entry and how his immigration officer was like, don't wait, start your life. And then fast forwarding it to what had happened, I was scared and, um. Lue and I are both, uh, Hmong community leaders as well. And Lue, of course, um, being president of the Hmong Family Association, him and I decided we're gonna keep a little quiet at first, and I started getting [00:35:00] calls from our Hmong community members. Uh, in concern to them receiving a letter, which is all dated for the same time at the same place that is not usual, where people would normally go see their immigration officer. And immediately that weekend I went to go visit him and I, it was explaining to him that I have received nine calls and I don't know what to do in immediately he. I think that the urgency around his people created that fear and immediately he was like, Hey, we've gotta start talking. You've gotta call you. You have to start making calls. Because he was detained on the 15th. On the 15th, which was Tuesday, and these letters were mailed to the community on that Friday. And immediately him and I started talking more and more and he said, “we have a 50-50 chance. If you don't fight for me and the others, then. We get sent back, you're gonna regret that for the rest of your life or [00:36:00] you fight for us. And as long as you fought all the way till the end, whatever happens, we can live with that”. And immediately, I remember speaking to, uh, attorney Nancy, and I've been mentioning to her that I wanna call, I wanna call Rep Mai. And I wanted to call Commissioner Carolyn Wright and she was like, well make the call and I'm glad that she didn't wait. And she just said, Hey, you know what? She just started talking and immediately Rep Mai called and that's how it kind of started this whole journey. So I am so thankful that I did. I did voice it out because I myself, even as a community leader, I felt hopeless. I felt like as loud as I am, everyone that I, for the first time had no voice. It became, became lonely. I became scared. Because they've got a, you know, we have a family, right, that we're raising together with small children. So I'm glad that we did, uh, [00:37:00] share our story and I'm glad that it is out. And, and that it, it opened the key to many other Southeast Asian families to do the same as well too.  Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Anna. And I remember you saying that even Lue was speaking with folks in Spanish to get their stories and share them out as well. Ann Vue: He had to learn it! And you know, I will say that with this whole detention thing, it doesn't just detain our person. It detains our whole family. We're all a part of this, you know? And so, you know, Lue had to learn how to count so he can give the numbers 'cause he was doing it with his hand motions. Because it's a hard system, it's a very complex system to navigate, which is how people go disappearing. And so for him to be able to reach out. Give me phone numbers to these families, regardless. Love beyond borders, right? And I was able to reach out to these families so that that way they know where their person was and [00:38:00] help them get set up so they can, so their families can call them. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for doing that. And you and your husband, both as organizers and continuing to be organizers even when locked up. Tika, I wanna turn it to you and ask about the courage it took to speak up and what keeps you going.  Tika Basnet: Yes. So when, uh, my husband got detained on April 8, I took one week after to reach out Aisa and she told me, Hey Tika, come forward. You know, your story is powerful. People need to know your story. And I told first thing to Aisa is our community is very just mental. They doesn't understand. And I've been looking at the video where our Bhutanese people get detained and deported and on common section, the first thing that I noticed was people are commenting, oh, these people are criminal. They are, maybe they, um, kill someone or they rape someone, you know, without. Understanding the people's story. And I, I [00:39:00] was thinking the same, whatever, if I come forward, will they gonna understand my story? Will they gonna talk to me? Will they gonna ask me personally, what is going on? And I actually same as Ann, I, um, I. Was scared to come out. I did not come out in two within two, two months, you know, when, uh, I tried to deport my husband on my due date that I was about to give birth, um, BIA, uh, grant, day of removal, you know, in two month I was crying alone. I was messaging Aisa and I was telling all my pain. And then when they stop my husband deport his son and that day, um. Aisa and ARU, everybody encouraged me. Like, you know, you need to come forward. People need to know your story. And then that day I decide, and I also remember that, um, within one minute after I gave birth, I was messaging, uh, ARU team I think his name [00:40:00] is Pravin or something. I was messaging him, Hey, I'm ready to give, uh, interview. I'm ready to give uh, a story. And that day I decide like I wanna come forward. I don't care what society is thinking, I'm the one that going through and people need to know my story. And, uh, I think, uh, and also I look at my daughter, you know, I don't want, um, her to think that I did not fight for her dad. You know, I want her to think like her mom is, is strong enough to fight and looking at her. That gave me so much power and yeah. And now like give, getting a lot of support, a lot of love is give me like, you know, I, I feel like, um, I wouldn't, uh, get all the support if I was scared and did not, uh, talk about my story. So now like receiving a lot of love from everywhere and that give me couraged to continue and talk about my husband's deportation.  Miko Lee: Thank you, Tika. And I wanna recognize that we're running late, but we're gonna get through it if those of you could stay with us a little bit [00:41:00] longer. My one more question to both Ann and Tika is what message do you have for people that are experiencing this right now? Because this, as we said, 60,000 people are detained right now. Your spouses, we, as we have said, it's not just you with your, the children, the grandparents, all the other people. What advice do you have for other folks that are going through this and do you have a message for those folks? Ann Vue: I would say, um, for anyone who is going through what Tika and I and the many are going through that, um, make sure you document everything, get your loved ones Alien Number because you want to track it as you go. Build your circle. Know that you are not alone. Uh, reach out. I'm still learning as I go too. And it's unfortunate that we as family, like have to become attorneys overnight and learn to as well. But make sure that you guys, that you know that you're not alone you know that [00:42:00] we're not fighting the system. We're fighting a system that. Hopes, uh, that we get tired of fighting it. And the moment that you speak up, they can't disappear your loved one quietly. And I am a very big, um, firm believer. There's this scripture that has always carried Lue and I and, uh, I, I can't stress on it enough. And especially to all of those, to all of our, everybody that's on tonight. And beyond that, uh, there's a scripture. It's a Proverbs, right? 3:27-28 that says, “Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is your power to act”. And so thank you to those who continues to act when action is really within your reach and. We belong here, our families belong here. And compassion delayed is really compassion denied. And so don't fight alone 'cause that's what they are hoping that we will fight alone, [00:43:00] but we're together in this.  Miko Lee: Beautiful, thanks. And Tika, what about you? What advice do you have for other people that are experiencing this with family members?  Tika Basnet: So, yeah, um, I'm encouraging everyone like we experiencing this deportation for the first time or. Come forward. You never know. You know how many support you will get. Looking at Ann and my story that if we did not reach out to the community, I don't think our husband will be here at the moment. So you are the one who going through the pain and, uh, sharing your pain will make you at least a relief and you never know. Your husband Deportes and will stop. You will get like support from, from community. So ICE is not deporting only your husband or your like wife or someone, they are deporting your dream, your hope. So when they try to deport my husband, they were deporting my husband, uh, my [00:44:00] daughter future, the future that we talk about. So I am telling everyone that come forward. Story, your story, and you'll get lot of love. You'll get lot of support. And if I did not talk before, I don't think my husband will be here. He'll be one of the person that disappear long time ago. So yeah, please come forward and see your story. And the last thing is, I wanna say we belong here. This is our home and our future is here.  Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Tika. Um, Aisa, I wanna turn it over to you. Ann was saying suddenly we have to become lawyers and, and so can you talk about, and even like with Lue's case, it was suddenly he got pardoned at the last minute when he was on a deportation plane, and then it was like, oh, that should fix everything, but it doesn't, so can you talk a little bit about some of the legal ramifications that people should know about? Aisa Villarosa: Sure. And just to say, Mohan, Lue, Tika, Ann, I mean, y'all have lived [00:45:00] several movies in, in just the span of months the amount of stress, both you yourselves as the lead advocate, your families. Uh, so, so for folks watching this is literally Mohan and Lue getting like pulled off planes because of the shared advocacy here, uh, which starts with the decision to speak out. Um, and for folks in the room who aren't sure whether they want to share their story, you know, we're not saying, oh, go to the press so much of it. Involves just opening your heart to a trusted person. Um, many of those people are here in this room uh, my organization, Asian Law Caucus. Uh, in a minute we'll share some links for some of our resources. Uh, the wonderful folks at ARU, there's such a full crew, and if you're part of a community, especially the many, many, too many refugee communities being targeted. You are not alone. So in terms of what the legal battle [00:46:00] looks like, another thing to remember is that for any case, there's usually a, a wave of folks that's needed, uh, for Lue, for Mohan. That's multiple states sometimes because in the immigration world, for example, you could have a very, very old final order of removal. So this is essentially the order that is put forward by an immigration judge. That technically allows a lot of these awful deportations and disappearances to take place. The battle to fight that can be multi-state, uh, multi-issue. So you're talking to a criminal defense attorney, you're talking to an immigrant rights attorney. Uh, but going back to that trust, just talk to someone who both you can trust and someone who has a good lay of the land because these cases are incredibly complex. Folks I work with, sometimes they're physically driving to a law office. Someone named Emily is on the call. You know, we drove to a law office. Turns [00:47:00] out the record we were looking for was, was too old. The, that previous attorney didn't have the record on file. There are so many practical challenges you don't anticipate. So the sooner you do that math and just open your story up, um, to, to a loved one, to a trusted one. And in a little bit we're, we'll share more links for what that process looks like.  Miko Lee: So we're gonna move into that call to action. We're running a bit over time, so if you could hang with us for a couple more minutes. Um, we want to one, thank all of our amazing guests so far and then move to our call to action. What can you do? A bunch of people are throwing things into the chat. We're gonna start with Rising Voices. Oh, I guess we're gonna start with OPAWL and Sonya is gonna share about OPAWL's work and the call to action there. Sonya (OPAWL): Hi everyone. My name is Sonya Kapur. I live in Columbus, Ohio, and I'm a member of OPAWL Building AAPI Feminist leadership. I'd like to share a little bit about our efforts to support Mohans Campaign for Freedom and encourage you to donate to [00:48:00] Mohans GoFundMe to cover his legal fees, and the link to the GoFundMe will be in the chat. With the funds raised so far, Tika and Mohan were able to hire a seasoned attorney to review Mohans court documents and work on his case. So your donations will allow Mohan to continue working with his legal team as we fight to bring him home. So even five or $10 will help us get closer to reuniting Mohan with his family and community here in Ohio. A really fun piece of this is that a local, Columbus based illustrator and OPA member Erin Siao, has also created a beautiful art fundraiser to help raise more funds from Mohans release campaign. So when you donate to Mohans GoFundMe between now and November 15th, you receive a complimentary five by seven art print of your choice. Families belong together on the right or on the left. To receive a print, you just email Erin and her. Email address will also be in the [00:49:00] chat, a screenshot of your donation confirmation along with your name and address. You can also send a direct message of the screenshot to her Instagram account, so please consider uplifting our art fundraiser on social media. Encourage others to donate to the GoFundMe and share Mohans story with your family and friends.  Miko Lee: Thanks, Sonya and Opal, and we'll turn it over to Emily at Rising Voices. Emily (Rising Voices): Hi, thank you. Um, rising Voices is one of the, uh, many members helping bring Lue Yang home. Just wanna share that. We do have a online petition going that directs you to email the ice field office in Detroit, pressuring them to bring him home. Um, there's also a number to call with a script provided. So nothing has to be reinvented. We please, please encourage you to share this out, and you do not have to be from Michigan to make a call or email every single email. And, all counts. And we also do have a GoFundMe for [00:50:00] him and his family. As we all know legal file, legal fees pile up, so anything counts. Thank you so much everyone.  Miko Lee:  Thanks Emily. Now we're gonna pass it over to Nawal talking about this event which is connected to disappeared in America.  Nawal Rai: Hi everyone. I'm Nawal here again and yeah, so We Belong Here. Uh, today's event was part of the Disappeared in America Weekend of Action, which is a national mobilization action to protect immigrants, uh, expose corporate complicity and honor the lives lost in detention and across America more than 150 towns and cities held.  Um. Weekend of Collective action this weekend on November 1st and second, standing in solidarity with immigrants families, uh, from holding freedom vigils outside of ICE facilities to via de Los Mortis gathering, honoring life's lost in detentions to ice out of Home Depot actions. Calling out corporate complicity this weekend was a resounding nation nationwide call for compassion, dignity, and [00:51:00] democracy, and demanding justice and due process for all. The National Action was organized by the Coalition of Partners, including National Day Labor Organizing Network, Detention Watch Network, the Worker Circle, public ci, uh, citizen, and many allied organization across the country. Thank you all. Thank you for joining us today.  Miko Lee: Thank you to everyone for showing up today. We thank all of our speakers, all of our many partner organizations. As we were saying, it takes many of us working together collectively. Even though we said there's 60,000 people detained. There are so many more than that. We know that immigrants contribute and refugees contribute immensely to the American experience, and we want everyone to know that we belong here. All of us belong here. This is our home.  Thank you so much for joining us all. We appreciate all of you, the interpreters, the translators, the folks behind the scene who helped to make this event happen. Um, shout out to Cheryl Truong [00:52:00] and Nina Phillips for really doing all the tech behind this. And to all of you for showing up tonight, we need each and every one of you to participate to show that you are part of the beloved community, that you are part of believing that America can be a place filled with beloved love instead of hatred. Um, so I would love you all to just all together. Shout out. We belong here. 1, 2, 3.  Event Attendees: We belong here. We belong here.  We belong here.  Miko Lee: Have a great night, and thank you all for joining us. Nina Phillips: This was a recording of a virtual community gathering that took place earlier this month on Monday, November 3rd. It was made [00:53:00] possible by We Belong Here, a coalition of immigrant rights organizations, Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, Asian Refugees United, Asian Law Caucus, Hmong Family Association Lansing, Hmong Innovative Politics, OPAWL and Rising Voices.  As I mentioned earlier, you can watch the phenomenal video performance from Asian Refugees United on the website of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality.  That's aacre.org/our-voices/webelonghere  There's also up-to-date information on how best you can support both the Free Mohan Karki and Bring Lu Home campaigns. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing. Your voices are important. Let's keep immigrant families together.  To close out. Here's a little more from the video performance. [00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00]  Nina Phillips: For show notes, please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/APEX-express.  APEX Express is a collective of activists that include Ama Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Nina Phillips, Preeti Mangala Shekar, and Swati Rayasam. Tonight's show was produced by me, Nina Phillips. Get some rest, y'all. Good night. The post APEX Express – November 27, 2025 – We Belong Here: Bhutanese & HMoob Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness appeared first on KPFA.

Lia and Megan go full English class today as we discuss the parallels between Guillermo Del Toro's Frankenstein and the 2023 Kdrama Mask Girl. Sound wild? Well, it kind of is, but here us out...Ready to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

THE Kim Seokjin held Run Jin encore performances at Incheon Munhak Main Stadium on October 31 and November 2nd. Join Lia, Megan and new addition to the team Becky as we dive into the unique blend of heart and humor that only Jin can deliver. Shout out to the special guest performances from J-Hope, Jungkook, Jimin and V (who even held it down wearing a backpack). Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Check out our sister pod www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest members of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Want to find more great BTS content? Head over to Afternoona Army for more takes on Bangtan life and links to our social media.

The genome sequences of Neandertals and Denisovans have provided a wealth of new information about the origins, migrations, and interactions of ancient humans. These genomes have revealed that mixture between hominin groups was common: all modern humans outside Africa carry around 2% Neandertal DNA from a single major episode of Neandertal gene flow, while the ancestors of present-day Asians and Oceanians also met and mixed with multiple, genetically distinct Denisovan populations. Archaeological evidence suggests multiple dispersals of modern humans out of Africa, with early fossils identified in East and Southeast Asia over 50 thousand years ago. In contrast, genomic studies indicate that all present-day non-African populations descend primarily from a single dispersal after ~50 ka, though the migration routes of ancestral populations across Eurasia and Oceania remain unclear. Janet Kelso, professor at Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, shows how using the distribution of Neandertal and Denisovan ancestry in ancient and present-day modern humans can determine when, where and how often modern and archaic humans met and mixed. Series: "CARTA - Center for Academic Research and Training in Anthropogeny" [Science] [Show ID: 41192]

The genome sequences of Neandertals and Denisovans have provided a wealth of new information about the origins, migrations, and interactions of ancient humans. These genomes have revealed that mixture between hominin groups was common: all modern humans outside Africa carry around 2% Neandertal DNA from a single major episode of Neandertal gene flow, while the ancestors of present-day Asians and Oceanians also met and mixed with multiple, genetically distinct Denisovan populations. Archaeological evidence suggests multiple dispersals of modern humans out of Africa, with early fossils identified in East and Southeast Asia over 50 thousand years ago. In contrast, genomic studies indicate that all present-day non-African populations descend primarily from a single dispersal after ~50 ka, though the migration routes of ancestral populations across Eurasia and Oceania remain unclear. Janet Kelso, professor at Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, shows how using the distribution of Neandertal and Denisovan ancestry in ancient and present-day modern humans can determine when, where and how often modern and archaic humans met and mixed. Series: "CARTA - Center for Academic Research and Training in Anthropogeny" [Science] [Show ID: 41192]

The genome sequences of Neandertals and Denisovans have provided a wealth of new information about the origins, migrations, and interactions of ancient humans. These genomes have revealed that mixture between hominin groups was common: all modern humans outside Africa carry around 2% Neandertal DNA from a single major episode of Neandertal gene flow, while the ancestors of present-day Asians and Oceanians also met and mixed with multiple, genetically distinct Denisovan populations. Archaeological evidence suggests multiple dispersals of modern humans out of Africa, with early fossils identified in East and Southeast Asia over 50 thousand years ago. In contrast, genomic studies indicate that all present-day non-African populations descend primarily from a single dispersal after ~50 ka, though the migration routes of ancestral populations across Eurasia and Oceania remain unclear. Janet Kelso, professor at Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, shows how using the distribution of Neandertal and Denisovan ancestry in ancient and present-day modern humans can determine when, where and how often modern and archaic humans met and mixed. Series: "CARTA - Center for Academic Research and Training in Anthropogeny" [Science] [Show ID: 41192]

The genome sequences of Neandertals and Denisovans have provided a wealth of new information about the origins, migrations, and interactions of ancient humans. These genomes have revealed that mixture between hominin groups was common: all modern humans outside Africa carry around 2% Neandertal DNA from a single major episode of Neandertal gene flow, while the ancestors of present-day Asians and Oceanians also met and mixed with multiple, genetically distinct Denisovan populations. Archaeological evidence suggests multiple dispersals of modern humans out of Africa, with early fossils identified in East and Southeast Asia over 50 thousand years ago. In contrast, genomic studies indicate that all present-day non-African populations descend primarily from a single dispersal after ~50 ka, though the migration routes of ancestral populations across Eurasia and Oceania remain unclear. Janet Kelso, professor at Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, shows how using the distribution of Neandertal and Denisovan ancestry in ancient and present-day modern humans can determine when, where and how often modern and archaic humans met and mixed. Series: "CARTA - Center for Academic Research and Training in Anthropogeny" [Science] [Show ID: 41192]

The genome sequences of Neandertals and Denisovans have provided a wealth of new information about the origins, migrations, and interactions of ancient humans. These genomes have revealed that mixture between hominin groups was common: all modern humans outside Africa carry around 2% Neandertal DNA from a single major episode of Neandertal gene flow, while the ancestors of present-day Asians and Oceanians also met and mixed with multiple, genetically distinct Denisovan populations. Archaeological evidence suggests multiple dispersals of modern humans out of Africa, with early fossils identified in East and Southeast Asia over 50 thousand years ago. In contrast, genomic studies indicate that all present-day non-African populations descend primarily from a single dispersal after ~50 ka, though the migration routes of ancestral populations across Eurasia and Oceania remain unclear. Janet Kelso, professor at Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, shows how using the distribution of Neandertal and Denisovan ancestry in ancient and present-day modern humans can determine when, where and how often modern and archaic humans met and mixed. Series: "CARTA - Center for Academic Research and Training in Anthropogeny" [Science] [Show ID: 41192]

Monica Harris is the Executive Director of FAIR For All,  a Harvard Law graduate, former Hollywood executive, and author of The Illusion of Division. Monica explains how her experience as a gay Black woman in Hollywood and then in "flyover country"shattered many elite narratives about America. She describes why she believes much of our current polarization is manufactured by media and political interests, and how identity-based frameworks like liberated ethnic studies and DEI are deepening division rather than healing it. We dig into the following: Why "Liberated Ethnic Studies" is dividing students, not uniting them How modern DEI programs drifted far from genuine civil rights principles Why identity-based teaching harms kids socially and emotionally The catastrophic decline in civic education—and why it matters now more than ever How the American Experience curriculum offers a unifying alternative What parents MUST know about what's being taught in classrooms today This conversation is a must-listen for parents, educators, and anyone concerned about polarization, education, and the future of democracy.   Resources & Links FAIR For All: https://fairforall.org Monica's Substack: The Illusion of Division Monica's book, "The Ilusion of Division" If you want to know about this topic, listen to our podcast with Brandy Shufutinsky: The Marxist Roots of Coursework in K-12 and our College Campuses.   Quotes "We have so much more in common than what separates us, but division is being manufactured." "Kids don't need to see each other as oppressors and oppressed—they need tools for civil discourse." "The bones of America are exceptional" "At FAIR, we're asking: what comes after polarization? Everyone can diagnose the problem; we're focused on solutions." "The entire liberated ethnic studies model flies in the face of reality on the ground. It pits students against each other at the exact moment in life when they most need to see each other as allies." ⏱ Episode Timestamps 00:00 -Welcome & Monica's California-to-Harvard-to-Hollywood story 05:00 -Leaving Hollywood for Montana: the real story behind the culture shock 07:50 - Why Monica wrote The Illusion of Division 09:20 — What FAIR For All does across education, arts, medicine & law 13:00 — Inside the American Experience curriculum 15:00 — The problems with Liberated Ethnic Studies 19:00 — Why America's system needs repair, not replacement 20:30 — How social media fuels division and fear 24:00 — "This isn't capitalism"—the economic reality young people face 26:00 — The collapse of civics education & why it matters 32:00 — How FAIR's curriculum teaches civil discourse & unifying history 35:00 — Why parents are the key to changing school districts 38:00 — What's happening in California, Oregon & other states 42:00 — When students should take the course: age, grade level & design 44:30 — The pilot program: access, cost & rollout plans 47:00 — How ethnic studies frames Jews, Asians & successful minorities as "privileged" 50:00 — Why human beings will always choose freedom over authoritarianism 51:00 — Closing thoughts & how to learn more  

We bestow our highly coveted and prestigious Asians in Baseball Awards on a new class of recipients

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Powerleegirl hosts, the mother daughter team of Miko Lee, Jalena & Ayame Keane-Lee speak with artists about their craft and the works that you can catch in the Bay Area. Featured are filmmaker Yuriko Gamo Romer, playwright Jessica Huang and photographer Joyce Xi.   More info about their work here: Diamond Diplomacy Yuriko Gamo Romer Jessica Huang's Mother of Exiles at Berkeley Rep Joyce Xi's Our Language Our Story at Galeria de la Raza     Show Transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.    Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:46] Thank you for joining us on Apex Express Tonight. Join the PowerLeeGirls as we talk with some powerful Asian American women artists. My mom and sister speak with filmmaker Yuriko Gamo Romer, playwright Jessica Huang, and photographer Joyce Xi. Each of these artists have works that you can enjoy right now in the Bay Area. First up, let's listen in to my mom Miko Lee chat with Yuriko Gamo Romer about her film Diamond Diplomacy.    Miko Lee: [00:01:19] Welcome, Yuriko Gamo Romer to Apex Express, amazing filmmaker, award-winning director and producer. Welcome to Apex Express.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:01:29] Thank you for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:01:31] It's so great to see your work after this many years. We were just chatting that we knew each other maybe 30 years ago and have not reconnected. So it's lovely to see your work. I'm gonna start with asking you a question. I ask all of my Apex guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:01:49] Oh, who are my people? That's a hard one. I guess I'm Japanese American. I'm Asian American, but I'm also Japanese. I still have a lot of people in Japan. That's not everything. Creative people, artists, filmmakers, all the people that I work with, which I love. And I don't know, I can't pare it down to one narrow sentence or phrase. And I don't know what my legacy is. My legacy is that I was born in Japan, but I have grown up in the United States and so I carry with me all that is, technically I'm an immigrant, so I have little bits and pieces of that and, but I'm also very much grew up in the United States and from that perspective, I'm an American. So too many words.    Miko Lee: [00:02:44] Thank you so much for sharing. Your latest film was called Diamond Diplomacy. Can you tell us what inspired this film?   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:02:52] I have a friend named Dave Dempsey and his father, Con Dempsey, was a pitcher for the San Francisco Seals. And the Seals were the minor league team that was in the West Coast was called the Pacific Coast League They were here before the Major League teams came to the West Coast. So the seals were San Francisco's team, and Con Dempsey was their pitcher. And it so happened that he was part of the 1949 tour when General MacArthur sent the San Francisco Seals to Allied occupied Japan after World War II. And. It was a story that I had never heard. There was a museum exhibit south of Market in San Francisco, and I was completely wowed and awed because here's this lovely story about baseball playing a role in diplomacy and in reuniting a friendship between two countries. And I had never heard of it before and I'm pretty sure most people don't know the story. Con Dempsey had a movie camera with him when he went to Japan I saw the home movies playing on a little TV set in the corner at the museum, and I thought, oh, this has to be a film. I was in the middle of finishing Mrs. Judo, so I, it was something I had to tuck into the back of my mind Several years later, I dug it up again and I made Dave go into his mother's garage and dig out the actual films. And that was the beginning. But then I started opening history books and doing research, and suddenly it was a much bigger, much deeper, much longer story.   Miko Lee: [00:04:32] So you fell in, it was like synchronicity that you have this friend that had this footage, and then you just fell into the research. What stood out to you?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:04:41] It was completely amazing to me that baseball had been in Japan since 1872. I had no idea. And most people,   Miko Lee: [00:04:49] Yeah, I learned that too, from your film. That was so fascinating.    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:04:53] So that was the first kind of. Wow. And then I started to pick up little bits and pieces like in 1934, there was an American All Star team that went to Japan. And Babe Ruth was the headliner on that team. And he was a big star. People just loved him in Japan. And then I started to read the history and understanding that. Not that a baseball team or even Babe Ruth can go to Japan and prevent the war from happening. But there was a warming moment when the people of Japan were so enamored of this baseball team coming and so excited about it that maybe there was a moment where it felt like. Things had thawed out a little bit. So there were other points in history where I started to see this trend where baseball had a moment or had an influence in something, and I just thought, wow, this is really a fascinating history that goes back a long way and is surprising. And then of course today we have all these Japanese faces in Major League baseball.   Miko Lee: [00:06:01] So have you always been a baseball fan?   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:06:04] I think I really became a fan of Major League Baseball when I was living in New York. Before that, I knew what it was. I played softball, I had a small connection to it, but I really became a fan when I was living in New York and then my son started to play baseball and he would come home from the games and he would start to give us the play by play and I started to learn more about it. And it is a fascinating game 'cause it's much more complex than I think some people don't like it 'cause it's complex.    Miko Lee: [00:06:33] I must confess, I have not been a big baseball fan. I'm also thinking, oh, a film about baseball. But I actually found it so fascinating with especially in the world that we live in right now, where there's so much strife that there was this way to speak a different language. And many times we do that through art or music and I thought it was so great how your film really showcased how baseball was used as a tool for political repair and change. I'm wondering how you think this film applies to the time that we live in now where there's such an incredible division, and not necessarily with Japan, but just with everything in the world.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:07:13] I think when it comes down to it, if we actually get to know people. We learn that we're all human beings and that we probably have more in common than we give ourselves credit for. And if we can find a space that is common ground, whether it's a baseball field or the kitchen, or an art studio, or a music studio, I think it gives us a different place where we can exist and acknowledge That we're human beings and that we maybe have more in common than we're willing to give ourselves credit for. So I like to see things where people can have a moment where you step outside of yourself and go, oh wait, I do have something in common with that person over there. And maybe it doesn't solve the problem. But once you have that awakening, I think there's something. that happens, it opens you up. And I think sports is one of those things that has a little bit of that magical power. And every time I watch the Olympics, I'm just completely in awe.    Miko Lee: [00:08:18] Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And speaking of that kind of repair and that aspect that sports can have, you ended up making a short film called Baseball Behind Barbed Wire, about the incarcerated Japanese Americans and baseball. And I wondered where in the filmmaking process did you decide, oh, I gotta pull this out of the bigger film and make it its own thing?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:08:41] I had been working with Carrie Yonakegawa. From Fresno and he's really the keeper of the history of Japanese American baseball and especially of the story of the World War II Japanese American incarceration through the baseball stories. And he was one of my scholars and consultants on the longer film. And I have been working on diamond diplomacy for 11 years. So I got to know a lot of my experts quite well. I knew. All along that there was more to that part of the story that sort of deserved its own story, and I was very fortunate to get a grant from the National Parks Foundation, and I got that grant right when the pandemic started. It was a good thing. I had a chunk of money and I was able to do historical research, which can be done on a computer. Nobody was doing any production at that beginning of the COVID time. And then it's a short film, so it was a little more contained and I was able to release that one in 2023.   Miko Lee: [00:09:45] Oh, so you actually made the short before Diamond Diplomacy.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:09:49] Yeah. The funny thing is that I finished it before diamond diplomacy, it's always been intrinsically part of the longer film and you'll see the longer film and you'll understand that part of baseball behind Barbed Wire becomes a part of telling that part of the story in Diamond Diplomacy.   Miko Lee: [00:10:08] Yeah, I appreciate it. So you almost use it like research, background research for the longer film, is that right?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:10:15] I had been doing the research about the World War II, Japanese American incarceration because it was part of the story of the 150 years between Japan and the United States and Japanese people in the United States and American people that went to Japan. So it was always a part of that longer story, and I think it just evolved that there was a much bigger story that needed to be told separately and especially 'cause I had access to the interview footage of the two guys that had been there, and I knew Carrie so well. So that was part of it, was that I learned so much about that history from him.   Miko Lee: [00:10:58] Thanks. I appreciated actually watching both films to be able to see more in depth about what happened during the incarceration, so that was really powerful. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about the style of actually both films, which combine vintage Japanese postcards, animation and archival footage, and how you decided to blend the films in this way.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:11:19] Anytime you're making a film about history, there's that challenge of. How am I going to show this story? How am I gonna get the audience to understand and feel what was happening then? And of course you can't suddenly go out and go, okay, I'm gonna go film Babe Ruth over there. 'cause he's not around anymore. So you know, you start digging up photographs. If we're in the era of you have photographs, you have home movies, you have 16 millimeter, you have all kinds of film, then great. You can find that stuff if you can find it and use it. But if you go back further, when before people had cameras and before motion picture, then you have to do something else. I've always been very much enamored of Japanese woodblock prints. I think they're beautiful and they're very documentary in that they tell stories about the people and the times and what was going on, and so I was able to find some that sort of helped evoke the stories of that period of time. And then in doing that, I became interested in the style and maybe can I co-opt that style? Can we take some of the images that we have that are photographs? And I had a couple of young artists work on this stuff and it started to work and I was very excited. So then we were doing things like, okay, now we can create a transition between the print style illustration and the actual footage that we're moving into, or the photograph that we're dissolving into. And the same thing with baseball behind barbed wire. It became a challenge to show what was actually happening in the camps. In the beginning, people were not allowed to have cameras at all, and even later on it wasn't like it was common thing for people to have cameras, especially movie cameras. Latter part of the war, there was a little bit more in terms of photos and movies, but in terms of getting the more personal stories. I found an exhibit of illustrations and it really was drawings and paintings that were visual diaries. People kept these visual diaries, they drew and they painted, and I think part of it was. Something to do, but I think the other part of it was a way to show and express what was going on. So one of the most dramatic moments in there is a drawing of a little boy sitting on a toilet with his hands covering his face, and no one would ever have a photograph. Of a little boy sitting on a toilet being embarrassed because there are no partitions around the toilet. But this was a very dramatic and telling moment that was drawn. And there were some other things like that. There was one illustration in baseball behind barbed wire that shows a family huddled up and there's this incredible wind blowing, and it's not. Home movie footage, but you feel the wind and what they had to live through. I appreciate art in general, so it was very fun for me to be able to use various different kinds of art and find ways to make it work and make it edit together with the other, with the photographs and the footage.    Miko Lee: [00:14:56] It's really beautiful and it tells the story really well. I'm wondering about a response to the film from folks that were in it because you got many elders to share their stories about what it was like being either folks that were incarcerated or folks that were playing in such an unusual time. Have you screened the film for folks that were in it? And if so what has their response been?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:15:20] Both the men that were in baseball behind barbed wire are not living anymore, so they have not seen it. With diamond diplomacy, some of the historians have been asked to review cuts of the film along the way. But the two baseball players that play the biggest role in the film, I've given them links to look at stuff, but I don't think they've seen it. So Moi's gonna see it for the first time, I'm pretty sure, on Friday night, and it'll be interesting to see what his reaction to it is. And of course. His main language is not English. So I think some of it's gonna be a little tough for him to understand. But I am very curious 'cause I've known him for a long time and I know his stories and I feel like when we were putting the film together, it was really important for me to be able to tell the stories in the way that I felt like. He lived them and he tells them, I feel like I've heard these stories over and over again. I've gotten to know him and I understand some of his feelings of joy and of regret and all these other things that happen, so I will be very interested to see what his reaction is to it.   Miko Lee: [00:16:40] Can you share for our audience who you're talking about.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:16:43] Well, Sanhi is a nickname, his name is Masa Nouri. Murakami. He picked up that nickname because none of the ball players could pronounce his name.   Miko Lee: [00:16:53] I did think that was horrifically funny when they said they started calling him macaroni 'cause they could not pronounce his name. So many of us have had those experiences.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:17:02] Yeah, especially if your name is Masanori Murakami. That's a long, complicated one. So he, Masanori Murakami is the first Japanese player that came and played for the major leagues. And it was an inadvertent playing because he was a kid, he was 19 years old. He was playing on a professional team in Japan and they had some, they had a time period where it made sense to send a couple of these kids over to the United States. They had a relationship with Kapi Harada, who was a Japanese American who had been in the Army and he was in Japan during. The occupation and somehow he had, he'd also been a big baseball person, so I think he developed all these relationships and he arranged for these three kids to come to the United States and to, as Mahi says, to study baseball. And they were sent to the lowest level minor league, the single A camps, and they played baseball. They learned the American ways to play baseball, and they got to play with low level professional baseball players. Marcy was a very talented left handed pitcher. And so when September 1st comes around and the postseason starts, they expand the roster and they add more players to the team. And the scouts had been watching him and the Giants needed a left-handed pitcher, so they decided to take a chance on him, and they brought him up and he was suddenly going to Shea Stadium when. The Giants were playing the Mets and he was suddenly pitching in a giant stadium of 40,000 people.    Miko Lee: [00:18:58] Can you share a little bit about his experience when he first came to America? I just think it shows such a difference in time to now.    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:19:07] Yeah, no kidding. Because today they're the players that come from Japan are coddled and they have interpreters wherever they go and they travel and chartered planes and special limousines and whatever else they get. So Marcie. He's, I think he was 20 by the time he was brought up so young. Mahi at 20 years old, the manager comes in and says, Hey, you're going to New York tomorrow and hands him plane tickets and he has to negotiate his way. Get on this plane, get on that plane, figure out how to. Get from the airport to the hotel, and he's barely speaking English at this point. He jokes that he used to carry around an English Japanese dictionary in one pocket and a Japanese English dictionary in the other pocket. So that's how he ended up getting to Shea Stadium was in this like very precarious, like they didn't even send an escort.   Miko Lee: [00:20:12] He had to ask the pilot how to get to the hotel. Yeah, I think that's wild. So I love this like history and what's happened and then I'm thinking now as I said at the beginning, I'm not a big baseball sports fan, but I love love watching Shohei Ohtani. I just think he's amazing. And I'm just wondering, when you look at that trajectory of where Mahi was back then and now, Shohei Ohtani now, how do you reflect on that historically? And I'm wondering if you've connected with any of the kind of modern Japanese players, if they've seen this film.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:20:48] I have never met Shohei Ohtani. I have tried to get some interviews, but I haven't gotten any. I have met Ichi. I did meet Nori Aoki when he was playing for the Giants, and I met Kenta Maya when he was first pitching for the Dodgers. They're all, I think they're all really, they seem to be really excited to be here and play. I don't know what it's like to be Ohtani. I saw something the other day in social media that was comparing him to Taylor Swift because the two of them are this like other level of famous and it must just be crazy. Probably can't walk down the street anymore. But it is funny 'cause I've been editing all this footage of mahi when he was 19, 20 years old and they have a very similar face. And it just makes me laugh that, once upon a time this young Japanese kid was here and. He was worried about how to make ends meet at the end of the month, and then you got the other one who's like a multi multimillionaire.    Miko Lee: [00:21:56] But you're right, I thought that too. They look similar, like the tall, the face, they're like the vibe that they put out there. Have they met each other?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:22:05] They have actually met, I don't think they know each other well, but they've definitely met.   Miko Lee: [00:22:09] Mm, It was really a delight. I am wondering what you would like audiences to walk away with after seeing your film.   Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:22:17] Hopefully they will have a little bit of appreciation for baseball and international baseball, but more than anything else. I wonder if they can pick up on that sense of when you find common ground, it's a very special space and it's an ability to have this people to people diplomacy. You get to experience people, you get to know them a little bit. Even if you've never met Ohtani, you now know a little bit about him and his life and. Probably what he eats and all that kind of stuff. So it gives you a chance to see into another culture. And I think that makes for a different kind of understanding. And certainly for the players. They sit on the bench together and they practice together and they sweat together and they, everything that they do together, these guys know each other. They learn about each other's languages and each other's food and each other's culture. And I think Mahi went back to Japan with almost as much Spanish as they did English. So I think there's some magical thing about people to people diplomacy, and I hope that people can get a sense of that.    Miko Lee: [00:23:42] Thank you so much for sharing. Can you tell our audience how they could find out more about your film Diamond diplomacy and also about you as an artist?    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:23:50] the website is diamonddiplomacy.com. We're on Instagram @diamonddiplomacy. We're also on Facebook Diamond Diplomacy. So those are all the places that you can find stuff, those places will give you a sense of who I am as a filmmaker and an artist too.    Miko Lee: [00:24:14] Thank you so much for joining us today, Yuriko. Gamo. Romo. So great to speak with you and I hope the film does really well.    Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:24:22] Thank you, Miko. This was a lovely opportunity to chat with you.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:24:26] Next up, my sister Jalena Keane-Lee speaks with playwright Jessica Huang, whose new play Mother of Exiles just had its world premiere at Berkeley Rep is open until December 21st.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:39] All right. Jessica Huang, thank you so much for being here with us on Apex Express and you are the writer of the new play Mother of Exiles, which is playing at Berkeley Rep from November 14th to December 21st. Thank you so much for being here.   Jessica Huang: [00:24:55] Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:59] I'm so curious about this project. The synopsis was so interesting. I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about it and how you came to this work.   Jessica Huang: [00:25:08] When people ask me what mother of Exiles is, I always say it's an American family story that spans 160 plus years, and is told in three acts. In 90 minutes. So just to get the sort of sense of the propulsion of the show and the form, the formal experiment of it. The first part takes place in 1898, when the sort of matriarch of the family is being deported from Angel Island. The second part takes place in 1999, so a hundred years later where her great grandson is. Now working for the Miami, marine interdiction unit. So he's a border cop. The third movement takes place in 2063 out on the ocean after Miami has sunk beneath the water. And their descendants are figuring out what they're gonna do to survive. It was a strange sort of conception for the show because I had been wanting to write a play. I'd been wanting to write a triptych about America and the way that interracial love has shaped. This country and it shaped my family in particular. I also wanted to tell a story that had to do with this, the land itself in some way. I had been sort of carrying an idea for the play around for a while, knowing that it had to do with cross-cultural border crossing immigration themes. This sort of epic love story that each, in each chapter there's a different love story. It wasn't until I went on a trip to Singapore and to China and got to meet some family members that I hadn't met before that the rest of it sort of fell into place. The rest of it being that there's a, the presence of, ancestors and the way that the living sort of interacts with those who have come before throughout the play.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:13] I noticed that ancestors, and ghosts and spirits are a theme throughout your work. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your own ancestry and how that informs your writing and creative practice.   Jessica Huang: [00:27:25] Yeah, I mean, I'm in a fourth generation interracial marriage. So, I come from a long line of people who have loved people who were different from them, who spoke different languages, who came from different countries. That's my story. My brother his partner is German. He lives in Berlin. We have a history in our family of traveling and of loving people who are different from us. To me that's like the story of this country and is also the stuff I like to write about. The thing that I feel like I have to share with the world are, is just stories from that experience.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:28:03] That's really awesome. I guess I haven't really thought about it that way, but I'm third generation of like interracial as well. 'cause I'm Chinese, Japanese, and Irish. And then at a certain point when you're mixed, it's like, okay, well. The odds of me being with someone that's my exact same ethnic breakdown feel pretty low. So it's probably gonna be an interracial relationship in one way or the other.   Jessica Huang: [00:28:26] Totally. Yeah. And, and, and I don't, you know, it sounds, and it sounds like in your family and in mine too, like we just. Kept sort of adding culture to our family. So my grandfather's from Shanghai, my grandmother, you know, is, it was a very, like upper crust white family on the east coast. Then they had my dad. My dad married my mom whose people are from the Ukraine. And then my husband's Puerto Rican. We just keep like broadening the definition of family and the definition of community and I think that's again, like I said, like the story of this country.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:29:00] That's so beautiful. I'm curious about the role of place in this project in particular, mother of exiles, angel Island, obviously being in the Bay Area, and then the rest of it taking place, in Miami or in the future. The last act is also like Miami or Miami adjacent. What was the inspiration behind the place and how did place and location and setting inform the writing.   Jessica Huang: [00:29:22] It's a good question. Angel Island is a place that has loomed large in my work. Just being sort of known as the Ellis Island of the West, but actually being a place with a much more difficult history. I've always been really inspired by the stories that come out of Angel Island, the poetry that's come out of Angel Island and, just the history of Asian immigration. It felt like it made sense to set the first part of the play here, in the Bay. Especially because Eddie, our protagonist, spent some time working on a farm. So there's also like this great history of agriculture and migrant workers here too. It just felt like a natural place to set it. And then why did we move to Miami? There are so many moments in American history where immigration has been a real, center point of the sort of conversation, the national conversation. And moving forward to the nineties, the wet foot, dry foot Cuban immigration story felt like really potent and a great place to tell the next piece of this tale. Then looking toward the future Miami is definitely, or you know, according to the science that I have read one of the cities that is really in danger of flooding as sea levels rise.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:30:50] Okay. The Cuban immigration. That totally makes sense. That leads perfectly into my next question, which was gonna be about how did you choose the time the moments in time? I think that one you said was in the nineties and curious about the choice to have it be in the nineties and not present day. And then how did you choose how far in the future you wanted to have the last part?   Jessica Huang: [00:31:09] Some of it was really just based on the needs of the characters. So the how far into the future I wanted us to be following a character that we met as a baby in the previous act. So it just, you know, made sense. I couldn't push it too far into the future. It made sense to set it in the 2060s. In terms of the nineties and, why not present day? Immigration in the nineties , was so different in it was still, like I said, it was still, it's always been a important national conversation, but it wasn't. There was a, it felt like a little bit more, I don't know if gentle is the word, but there just was more nuance to the conversation. And still there was a broad effort to prevent Cuban and refugees from coming ashore. I think I was fascinated by how complicated, I mean, what foot, dry foot, the idea of it is that , if a refugee is caught on water, they're sent back to Cuba. But if they're caught on land, then they can stay in the us And just the idea of that is so. The way that, people's lives are affected by just where they are caught , in their crossing. I just found that to be a bit ridiculous and in terms of a national policy. It made sense then to set the second part, which moves into a bit of a farce at a time when immigration also kind of felt like a farce.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:32:46] That totally makes sense. It feels very dire right now, obviously. But it's interesting to be able to kind of go back in time and see when things were handled so differently and also how I think throughout history and also touching many different racial groups. We've talked a lot on this show about the Chinese Exclusion Act and different immigration policies towards Chinese and other Asian Americans. But they've always been pretty arbitrary and kind of farcical as you put it. Yeah.   Jessica Huang: [00:33:17] Yeah. And that's not to make light of like the ways that people's lives were really impacted by all of this policy . But I think the arbitrariness of it, like you said, is just really something that bears examining. I also think it's really helpful to look at where we are now through the lens of the past or the future. Mm-hmm. Just gives just a little bit of distance and a little bit of perspective. Maybe just a little bit of context to how we got to where we got to.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:33:50] That totally makes sense. What has your experience been like of seeing the play be put up? It's my understanding, this is the first this is like the premier of the play at Berkeley Rep.   Jessica Huang: [00:34:00] Yes. Yeah. It's the world premier. It's it incredible. Jackie Bradley is our director and she's phenomenal. It's just sort of mesmerizing what is happening with this play? It's so beautiful and like I've alluded to, it shifts tone between the first movement being sort of a historical drama on Angel Island to, it moves into a bit of a farce in part two, and then it, by the third movement, we're living in sort of a dystopic, almost sci-fi future. The way that Jackie's just deftly moved an audience through each of those experiences while holding onto the important threads of this family and, the themes that we're unpacking and this like incredible design team, all of these beautiful visuals sounds, it's just really so magical to see it come to life in this way. And our cast is incredible. I believe there are 18 named roles in the play, and there are a few surprises and all of them are played by six actors. who are just. Unbelievable. Like all of them have the ability to play against type. They just transform and transform again and can navigate like, the deepest tragedies and the like, highest moments of comedy and just hold on to this beautiful humanity. Each and every one of them is just really spectacular. So I'm just, you know. I don't know. I just feel so lucky to be honest with you. This production is going to be so incredible. It's gonna be, it feels like what I imagine in my mind, but, you know, plus,    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:35:45] well, I really can't wait to see it. What are you hoping that audiences walk away with after seeing the show?   Jessica Huang: [00:35:54] That's a great question. I want audiences to feel connected to their ancestors and feel part of this community of this country and, and grateful and acknowledge the sacrifices that somebody along the line made so that they could be here with, with each other watching the show. I hope, people feel like they enjoyed themselves and got to experience something that they haven't experienced before. I think that there are definitely, nuances to the political conversation that we're having right now, about who has the right to immigrate into this country and who has the right to be a refugee, who has the right to claim asylum. I hope to add something to that conversation with this play, however small.   Jalena Keane-Lee:[00:36:43]  Do you know where the play is going next?   Jessica Huang: [00:36:45] No. No. I dunno where it's going next. Um, exciting. Yeah, but we'll, time will   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:36:51] and previews start just in a few days, right?   Jessica Huang: [00:36:54] Yeah. Yeah. We have our first preview, we have our first audience on Friday. So yeah, very looking forward to seeing how all of this work that we've been doing lands on folks.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:03] Wow, that's so exciting. Do you have any other projects that you're working on? Or any upcoming projects that you'd like to share about?   Jessica Huang: [00:37:10] Yeah, yeah, I do. I'm part of the writing team for the 10 Things I Hate About You Musical, which is in development with an Eye Toward Broadway. I'm working with Lena Dunham and Carly Rae Jepsen and Ethan Ska to make that musical. I also have a fun project in Chicago that will soon be announced.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:31] And what is keeping you inspired and keeping your, you know, creative energies flowing in these times?   Jessica Huang: [00:37:37] Well first of all, I think, you know, my collaborators on this show are incredibly inspiring. The nice thing about theater is that you just get to go and be inspired by people all the time. 'cause it's this big collaboration, you don't have to do it all by yourself. So that would be the first thing I would say. I haven't seen a lot of theater since I've been out here in the bay, but right before I left New York, I saw MEUs . Which is by Brian Keda, Nigel Robinson. And it's this sort of two-hander musical, but they do live looping and they sort of create the music live. Wow. And it's another, it's another show about an untold history and about solidarity and about folks coming together from different backgrounds and about ancestors, so there's a lot of themes that really resonate. And also the show is just so great. It's just really incredible. So , that was the last thing I saw that I loved. I'm always so inspired by theater that I get to see.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:36] That sounds wonderful. Is there anything else that you'd like to share?   Jessica Huang: [00:38:40] No, I don't think so. I just thanks so much for having me and come check out the show. I think you'll enjoy it. There's something for everyone.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:48] Yeah. I'm so excited to see the show. Is there like a Chinese Cuban love story with the Miami portion? Oh, that's so awesome. This is an aside, but I'm a filmmaker and I've been working on a documentary about, Chinese people in Cuba and there's like this whole history of Chinese Cubans in Cuba too.   Jessica Huang: [00:39:07] Oh, that's wonderful. In this story, it's a person who's a descendant of, a love story between a Chinese person and a Mexican man, a Chinese woman and a Mexican man, and oh, their descendant. Then also, there's a love story between him and a Cuban woman.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:39:25] That's awesome. Wow. I'm very excited to see it in all the different intergenerational layers and tonal shifts. I can't wait to see how it all comes together.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:39:34] Next up we are back with Miko Lee, who is now speaking with photographer Joyce Xi about her latest exhibition entitled Our Language, our Story Running Through January in San Francisco at Galleria de Raza.    Miko Lee: [00:39:48] Welcome, Joyce Xi to Apex Express.    Joyce Xi: [00:39:52] Thanks for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:39:53] Yes. I'm, I wanna start by asking you a question I ask most of my guests, and this is based on the great poet Shaka Hodges. It's an adaptation of her question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Joyce Xi: [00:40:09] My people are artists, free spirits, people who wanna see a more free and just, and beautiful world. I'm Chinese American. A lot of my work has been in the Asian American community with all kinds of different people who dreaming of something better and trying to make the world a better place and doing so with creativity and with positive and good energy.   Miko Lee: [00:40:39] I love it. And what legacy do you carry with you?   Joyce Xi: [00:40:43] I am a fighter. I feel like just people who have been fighting for a better world. Photography wise, like definitely thinking about Corky Lee who is an Asian American photographer and activist. There's been people who have done it before me. There will be people who do it after me, but I wanna do my version of it here.   Miko Lee: [00:41:03] Thank you so much and for lifting up the great Corky Lee who has been such a big influence on all of us. I'm wondering in that vein, can you talk a little bit about how you use photography as a tool for social change?   Joyce Xi: [00:41:17] Yeah. Photography I feel is a very powerful tool for social change. Photography is one of those mediums where it's emotional, it's raw, it's real. It's a way to see and show and feel like important moments, important stories, important emotions. I try to use it as a way to share. Truths and stories about issues that are important, things that people experience, whether it's, advocating for environmental justice or language justice or just like some of them, just to highlight some of the struggles and challenges people experience as well as the joys and the celebrations and just the nuance of people's lives. I feel like photography is a really powerful medium to show that. And I love photography in particular because it's really like a frozen moment. I think what's so great about photography is that. It's that moment, it's that one feeling, that one expression, and it's kind of like frozen in time. So you can really, sit there and ponder about what's in this person's eyes or what's this person trying to say? Or. What does this person's struggle like? You can just see it through their expressions and their emotions and also it's a great way to document. There's so many things that we all do as advocates, as activists, whether it's protesting or whether it's just supporting people who are dealing with something. You have that moment recorded. Can really help us remember those fights and those moments. You can show people what happened. Photography is endlessly powerful. I really believe in it as a tool and a medium for influencing the world in positive ways.   Miko Lee: [00:43:08] I'd love us to shift and talk about your latest work, Our language, Our story.” Can you tell us a little bit about where this came from?   Joyce Xi: [00:43:15] Sure. I was in conversation with Nikita Kumar, who was at the Asian Law Caucus at the time. We were just chatting about art and activism and how photography could be a powerful medium to use to advocate or tell stories about different things. Nikita was talking to me about how a lot of language access work that's being done by organizations that work in immigrant communities can often be a topic that is very jargon filled or very kind of like niche or wonky policy, legal and maybe at times isn't the thing that people really get in the streets about or get really emotionally energized around. It's one of those issues that's so important to everything. Especially since in many immigrant communities, people do not speak English and every single day, every single issue. All these issues that these organizations advocate around. Like housing rights, workers' rights, voting rights, immigration, et cetera, without language, those rights and resources are very hard to understand and even hard to access at all. So, Nik and I were talking about language is so important, it's one of those issues too remind people about the core importance of it. What does it feel like when you don't have access to your language? What does it feel like and look like when you do, when you can celebrate with your community and communicate freely and live your life just as who you are versus when you can't even figure out how to say what you wanna say because there's a language barrier.    Miko Lee: [00:44:55] Joyce can you just for our audience, break down what language access means? What does it mean to you and why is it important for everybody?   Joyce Xi: [00:45:05] Language access is about being able to navigate the world in your language, in the way that you understand and communicate in your life. In advocacy spaces, what it can look like is, we need to have resources and we need to have interpretation in different languages so that people can understand what's being talked about or understand what resources are available or understand what's on the ballot. So they can really experience their life to the fullest. Each of us has our languages that we're comfortable with and it's really our way of expressing everything that's important to us and understanding everything that's important to us. When that language is not available, it's very hard to navigate the world. On the policy front, there's so many ways just having resources in different languages, having interpretation in different spaces, making sure that everybody who is involved in this society can do what they need to do and can understand the decisions that are being made. That affects them and also that they can affect the decisions that affect them.   Miko Lee: [00:46:19] I think a lot of immigrant kids just grow up being like the de facto translator for their parents. Which can be things like medical terminology and legal terms, which they might not be familiar with. And so language asks about providing opportunities for everybody to have equal understanding of what's going on. And so can you talk a little bit about your gallery show? So you and Nikita dreamed up this vision for making language access more accessible and more story based, and then what happened?   Joyce Xi: [00:46:50] We decided to express this through a series of photo stories. Focusing on individual stories from a variety of different language backgrounds and immigration backgrounds and just different communities all across the Bay Area. And really just have people share from the heart, what does language mean to them? What does it affect in their lives? Both when one has access to the language, like for example, in their own community, when they can speak freely and understand and just share everything that's on their heart. And what does it look like when that's not available? When maybe you're out in the streets and you're trying to like talk to the bus driver and you can't even communicate with each other. How does that feel? What does that look like? So we collected all these stories from many different community members across different languages and asked them a series of questions and took photos of them in their day-to-day lives, in family gatherings, at community meetings, at rallies, at home, in the streets, all over the place, wherever people were like Halloween or Ramadan or graduations, or just day-to-day life. Through the quotes that we got from the interviews, as well as the photos that I took to illustrate their stories, we put them together as photo stories for each person. Those are now on display at Galleria Deza in San Francisco. We have over 20 different stories in over 10 different languages. The people in the project spoke like over 15 different languages. Some people used multiple languages and some spoke English, many did not. We had folks who had immigrated recently, folks who had immigrated a while ago. We had children of immigrants talking about their experiences being that bridge as you talked about, navigating translating for their parents and being in this tough spot of growing up really quickly, we just have this kind of tapestry of different stories and, definitely encourage folks to check out the photos but also to read through each person's stories. Everybody has a story that's very special and that is from the heart   Miko Lee: [00:49:00] sounds fun. I can't wait to see it in person. Can you share a little bit about how you selected the participants?    Joyce Xi: [00:49:07] Yeah, selecting the participants was an organic process. I'm a photographer who's trying to honor relationships and not like parachute in. We wanted to build relationships and work with people who felt comfortable sharing their stories, who really wanted to be a part of it, and who are connected in some kind of a way where it didn't feel like completely out of context. So what that meant was that myself and also the Asian Law Caucus we have connections in the community to different organizations who work in different immigrant communities. So we reached out to people that we knew who were doing good work and just say Hey, do you have any community members who would be interested in participating in this project who could share their stories. Then through following these threads we were able to connect with many different organizations who brought either members or community folks who they're connected with to the project. Some of them came through like friends. Another one was like, oh, I've worked with these people before, maybe you can talk to them. One of them I met through a World Refugee Day event. It came through a lot of different relationships and reaching out. We really wanted folks who wanted to share a piece of their life. A lot of folks who really felt like language access and language barriers were a big challenge in their life, and they wanted to talk about it. We were able to gather a really great group together.    Miko Lee: [00:50:33] Can you share how opening night went? How did you navigate showcasing and highlighting the diversity of the languages in one space?    Joyce Xi: [00:50:43] The opening of the exhibit was a really special event. We invited everybody who was part of the project as well as their communities, and we also invited like friends, community and different organizations to come. We really wanted to create a space where we could feel and see what language access and some of the challenges of language access can be all in one space. We had about 10 different languages at least going on at the same time. Some of them we had interpretation through headsets. Some of them we just, it was like fewer people. So people huddled together and just interpreted for the community members. A lot of these organizations that we partnered with, they brought their folks out. So their members, their community members, their friends and then. It was really special because a lot of the people whose photos are on the walls were there, so they invited their friends and family. It was really fun for them to see their photos on the wall. And also I think for all of our different communities, like we can end up really siloed or just like with who we're comfortable with most of the time, especially if we can't communicate very well with each other with language barriers. For everybody to be in the same space and to hear so many languages being used in the same space and for people to be around people maybe that they're not used to being around every day. And yet through everybody's stories, they share a lot of common experiences. Like so many of the stories were related to each other. People talked about being parents, people talked about going to the doctor or taking the bus, like having challenges at the workplace or just what it's like to celebrate your own culture and heritage and language and what the importance of preserving languages. There are so many common threads and. Maybe a lot of people are not used to seeing each other or communicating with each other on a daily basis. So just to have everyone in one space was so special. We had performances, we had food, we had elders, children. There was a huge different range of people and it was just like, it was just cool to see everyone in the same space. It was special.    Miko Lee: [00:52:51] And finally, for folks that get to go to Galleria de la Raza in San Francisco and see the exhibit, what do you want them to walk away with?   Joyce Xi: [00:53:00] I would love for people to walk away just like in a reflective state. You know how to really think about how. Language is so important to everything that we do and through all these stories to really see how so many different immigrant and refugee community members are making it work. And also deal with different barriers and how it affects them, how it affects just really simple human things in life that maybe some of us take for granted, on a daily basis. And just to have more compassion, more understanding. Ultimately, we wanna see our city, our bay area, our country really respecting people and their language and their dignity through language access and through just supporting and uplifting our immigrant communities in general. It's a such a tough time right now. There's so many attacks on our immigrant communities and people are scared and there's a lot of dehumanizing actions and narratives out there. This is, hopefully something completely different than that. Something that uplifts celebrates, honors and really sees our immigrant communities and hopefully people can just feel that feeling of like, oh, okay, we can do better. Everybody has a story. Everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and all the people in these stories are really amazing human beings. It was just an honor for me to even be a part of their story. I hope people can feel some piece of that.    Miko Lee: [00:54:50] Thank you so much, Joyce, for sharing your vision with us, and I hope everybody gets a chance to go out and see your work.    Joyce Xi: [00:54:57] Thank you.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:55:00] Thanks so much for tuning in to Apex Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the guests tonight and find out how you can take direct action.   Apex Express is a proud member of Asian Americans for civil rights and equality. Find out more at aacre.org. That's AACRE.org.   We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.    Apex Express is produced by  Miko Lee, Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Nina Phillips & Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a good night.       The post APEX Express – 11.20.25 – Artist to Artist appeared first on KPFA.

This week Lia, Megan and Amy get into The Bechdel Test in Korean dramas. How does a piece of media pass The Bechdel Test? It has to meet three criteria: it must feature at least two women, the two women must have a conversation with each other, and the conversation must not be about a man. This should not be a high bar...and yet? And...yet.K-Pop Rec of the Week: Spaghetti by La Sserafim (featuring J-Hope of BTS)Ready to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

This week Amy and Megan unpack why quiet, low stakes dramas are just what they need right now. We discuss the comfort of predictability, the joy of getting to just hang out with good characters, and what it's like to finally feel the Song Joong-ki effect. Join us for overalls, floppy hats, and moving plants from here to there in My Youth. Ready to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life.  ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

You're listening to Burnt Toast! I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. You're listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Kaila Yu. Kaila is an author based in Los Angeles. Her debut memoir, Fetishized: A Reckoning with Yellow Fever, Feminism, and Beauty, came out earlier this fall to a rave review in The New York Times. She's also a luxury travel and culture writer with bylines in The New York Times, Rolling Stone, The LA Times, Condé Nast Traveler and many more. Kaila's memoir grapples with her experience growing up Asian and female in a world that has so many stereotypes and expectations about both those things. We talk about the pressure to perform so many different kinds of specific beauty labor, the experience of being objectified sexually —and we really get into how we all navigate the dual reality of hating beauty standards and often feeling safer and happier complying with them. I learned so much from this book, and this conversation with Kaila. Don't forget that if you've bought Fat Talk from Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off your purchase of Fetishized there too — just use the code FATTALK at checkout. And if you value this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast!

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – November 6, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

In today's episode, we chat about what we're currently watching, and how we grapple with navigating fandom spaces when faced with moral dilemmas. We get deep and vulnerable, but end with hope, as we always try to do.Vulgar History PodcastPassion: A Novel of Romantic Poets by Jude MorganReady to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Acts 20:1-12   After the uproar ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, and after encouraging them, he said farewell and departed for Macedonia. 2 When he had gone through those regions and had given them much encouragement, he came to Greece. 3 There he spent three months, and when a plot was made against him by the Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he decided to return through Macedonia. 4 Sopater the Berean, son of Pyrrhus, accompanied him; and of the Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus; and Gaius of Derbe, and Timothy; and the Asians, Tychicus and Trophimus. 5 These went on ahead and were waiting for us at Troas, 6 but we sailed away from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days we came to them at Troas, where we stayed for seven days. 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered. 9 And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. 10 But Paul went down and bent over him, and taking him in his arms, said, "Do not be alarmed, for his life is in him." 11 And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed. 12 And they took the youth away alive, and were not a little comforted.   Key Words: Encourage, Sabbath, Bread, Speech, Dead, Alive, Comfort Keystone Verse: And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed. And they took the youth away alive, and were not a little comforted. (Acts 20:11-12)   Download Bulletin

Acts 20:1-16 After the uproar ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, and after encouraging them, he said farewell and departed for Macedonia. 2 When he had gone through those regions and had given them much encouragement, he came to Greece. 3 There he spent three months, and when a plot was made against him by the Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he decided to return through Macedonia. 4 Sopater the Berean, son of Pyrrhus, accompanied him; and of the Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus; and Gaius of Derbe, and Timothy; and the Asians, Tychicus and Trophimus. 5 These went on ahead and were waiting for us at Troas, 6 but we sailed away from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days we came to them at Troas, where we stayed for seven days. 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered. 9 And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. 10 But Paul went down and bent over him, and taking him in his arms, said, “Do not be alarmed, for his life is in him.” 11 And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed. 12 And they took the youth away alive, and were not a little comforted. 13 But going ahead to the ship, we set sail for Assos, intending to take Paul aboard there, for so he had arranged, intending himself to go by land. 14 And when he met us at Assos, we took him on board and went to Mitylene. 15 And sailing from there we came the following day opposite Chios; the next day we touched at Samos; and the day after that we went to Miletus. 16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he might not have to spend time in Asia, for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.

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  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express Host Miko Lee speaks with spouses of detained refugees. We hear about the similarities and challenges of Hmong and Nepali speaking Bhutanese refugees. We also speak with Asian Law Caucus' Aisa Villarosa about the ongoing campaigns for freedom that ALC has been leading along with a host of other community based organizations. Join us: November 3, 4pm Pacific time, 7pm Eastern Time, Join us for “We Belong Here, Bhutanese & Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness” a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. bit.ly/WBH-2025   TAKE ACTION Rising Voices campaign for Lue Yang Mohan Karki's GoFundMe   And please help support these organizations working to support detained and deported folx: Asian Law Caucus Asian Refugees United Ba Lo Project in Vietnam Collective Freedom in Vietnam & Laos Asian Prisoner Support Committee & New Light Wellness in Cambodia November 1–2, people nationwide are joining the Disappeared In America Weekend of Action to stand up for immigrant families and defend due process. Actions include protests at Home Depots, candlelight Freedom Vigils, and Day of the Dead events honoring lives lost to detention.     We Belong! Transcript Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express.This is your host, Miko Lee. Today we're talking about detentions and potential deportations and the atrocities that the Trump administration is creating in our communities.We originally recorded this episode a month ago, and today is October 29th. 2025 and I have with me Aisa Villarosa a lawyer with Asian Law Caucus, giving us an update in the cases that we're talking about. Welcome Aisa Apex Express. Aisa Villarosa: Thanks so much, Miko. Miko Lee: Tonight we're gonna be talking with two spouses of detained folks. One is a Nepali speaking Bhutanese community member, and the other is Hmong community member. In the time since we recorded this, there has been a big update with Lue Young's case, and I wonder if you could provide us with that update. Aisa Villarosa: Miko since we last spoke, due to some really hard fought campaigning, both behind the scenes and drawing upon allies across Michigan and really across the country. Lue Yang, received a successful pardon from Governor Gretchen Whitmer. We actually received word shortly before Lue Yang was set to be placed on a very large deportation flight. Once we got word of the pardon, it was off to the races for the legal team to quickly draft some emergency motions for Lue Yang and to realize the power of the pardon before the deportation. Miko Lee: Can we back up for a moment and give for an audience a sense of what that means? Lue Young was incarcerated at a detention facility, which Trump has called the FedEx of detention facilities in, Louisana, and explain to us what happened to him and the other members that were suddenly pulled together onto an airplane. Aisa Villarosa: When these removal flights happen, there's so much confusion, there's so much fear that families undergo, and often it's due to the perseverance of the families that we honestly even know where folks are. Shortly before what we call final staging happens, someone is moved from, in Lue's case, a facility in Michigan to a facility like Alexandria in Louisiana where the planes do take off  from. Families typically look up their loved one on something called the “ice detainee locator.” What's challenging is when final staging starts. Often that person completely disappears from the detainee locator or information gets a bit scrambled. Because ICE has a bit of a sealed box as far as even telling families where, their loved one is. Families are either left to guess or rely on each other. So for Lue Yang and the pardon what is critical for folks to know is that as powerful, as rare as a pardon is, I can't stress how extraordinary this is in these very difficult times. A pardon does not instantly, allow someone to say, walk out of an ice facility. There's, numerous legal filings that need to happen. That is why , the team was so up against the clock. Miko Lee: So let's break this down a little bit around a pardon. What does a pardon mean in our current system? Because as a lay person, you think, oh, they're pardoned. That means they're free and they can go home and be with their family. Tell us a little bit about what a pardon means in our legal system right now. Aisa Villarosa: A pardon is different from a criminal expungement, which folks might be familiar with. In Lue's case, for example, when Lue was younger, he successfully expunged this record, in criminal court. The challenge is that immigration court, is basically the entity that issues something called a “final order of removal.” This document, is basically what powers deportation for folks. An expungement does not get at the final removal order. However, a pardon has that more direct link. The pardon has the weight of what we call “vacating a conviction.” To explain more legalese and hopefully folks can stay with me. A final order of removal is an immigration court order document where , it gives ice the power to do all these deportations We're seeing for the refugee community that Lue Yang belongs to. Often these are quite old orders, and so sometimes a loved one might be detained and they might not even realize that they have a criminal conviction or a final order of removal. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for breaking that down. So we described how he was pulled off the plane that was going for his deportation. Tell us where Lue is at right now. What is happening with his case? Aisa Villarosa: The call to action very much remains what it has been, which is we're calling to bring Lue home. At the moment, Lue is in a facility in Louisiana. Our hope is that Lue can return to Michigan. There is also a call to release Lue on a supervised release. The other component of the legal journey for Lue is something called a motion to reopen. Basically this is how the full weight of the pardon is realized. The motion to reopen calls on the Board of Immigration Appeals to reopen Lue's case, because years ago he got that final removal order, so when someone gets that order, typically their immigration case is closed. This petition says, Hey, he got a pardon. Please reopen Lue's case because the underlying conviction that led to the final removal order. Has been pardoned, right? We are hoping that this motion to reopen will be heard in front of the Board of Immigration Appeals, that we can get a great result and that as the campaign calls for that, Lue can come home. Miko Lee: I know lawyers like you are doing incredible work around the scenes. You did not sleep for two days, filing paperwork to be able to make sure that Lue was pulled off that plane. But what can regular people, what can our audience do to get involved right now? Aisa Villarosa: There's myriad actions along this really terrible deportation pipeline. We're seeing that folks who might not have, any deep knowledge of the immigration system can still be so impactful. We have partners in LA in the faith community and they've started working with community organizations to do things like accompaniment, which is, joining community members like Lue, who often have these ice check-ins. As folks have seen on the news, these check-ins can be really risky because that is where ice arrests can happen. If someone misses their ice check-in, typically that means that a warrant is issued, that immigration forces can come after you. In these cases, community members, particularly folks who are US citizens, accompaniment can be a great way to dig in to show up for our immigrant and refugee siblings. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for breaking down how folks can get involved. It's so important right now in a time where we feel so utterly helpless to be able to make change. Now we're gonna go back to listen to our interview that is with the two spouses, Tika, Basnet, and Ann Vue, and also our current guest, Aisa Villarosa Tika and Ann they're part of a horrible club, which is both of their spouses are currently in detention from our immigration system. I just wanna start on a real personal note in a way that I often do with my guests. Anne, I just would love to hear from you, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Ann Vue: Thank you again, Miko and Isa, for having me on. We are Hmong. We helped Americans during the Vietnam War. In Laos, a lot of our pilots needed a communication. Because we're indigenous and we are in the mountains they were able to speak with us and use us. Our Hmong, helped a lot of the pilots rescued a lot, like thousands and thousands of Americans, so that they can make it back home. That is our contribution to the American people. When we were brought to America, was to resettle because of humanitarian purpose. Our legacy of helping Americans with the war. that is who we are and what we bring to America. That's who I am. I'm actually the first generation Hmong American. I was born right here in the capital of Lansing, Michigan. Miko Lee: Thanks so much ann. Tika, can you share who are your people and what legacy you carry with you? Tika Basnet: Hi, my name is Tika Basnet. I am Bhutanese Nepali community. My parents and all the Bhutanese, they ran away from Bhutan in 1990 due to the ethnic cleansing. They came to Nepal, seeking for asylum, and that is where we born. I was born in Nepal, in refugee camp. Even though I was born in Nepal, Nepal never gave us identity. They never give us citizenship. We were known as Bhutanese Nepali, but as known as Stateless. My husband also born in Nepal in a refugee camp. Miko Lee: Thank you. Aisa, I'm gonna ask the same question for you Aisa, that works at Asian Law Caucus. Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Aisa Villarosa: So much love to you, Miko and to you Ann and Tika for being here today. I just am, I'm so honored. My name is Aisa and I carry the love and, Maki Baka spirit of Filipino Americans both in my family across the diaspora. A little bit about the Filipino American story. We came to the United States as part of the colonial machine. The first Filipinos were brought as part of the Spanish Gallian trade. We made California home, parts of Lueisiana home, and it's quite a contrast to a lot of the sort of model minority seduction that many of my people, and myself as a younger person tended to fall into that if we kept our heads down, if we were quiet, we would be left alone. I'm struck because at this moment of just unprecedented government attacks, so many of our communities have this story where someone somewhere said to us, yeah, just keep your head down and it'll be fine. We're seeing the exact opposite, that this is the time to really use our voices, both individually and as one. I'm also an artist and try to infuse that into my work in fighting government systems. Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. I will say I'm Miko. I am fifth generation Chinese American. I grew up knowing that my family was full of fighters that built the railroads, worked in the gold mines in laundromats and restaurants, and my parents walked with Dr. King and Cesar Chavez and Dolores Huerta, and I was raised in a family of social justice activists. I feel like our legacy is to continue that work and to fight for the rights of our peoples. I'm so honored to have both of all three of you powerful women join me today. As I was saying in the beginning, Tika and Anne are sadly a part of this club nobody wants to be a part of with the sudden, unexpected, harmful detentions of both of your husbands. I wonder if you can each just share the story about what happened and how you first found out about your husband being detained. Let's start with you Tika. Tika Basnet: My husband got his removal in 2014 when he was just 17 years old, high school student going from school to home. He's a teenager and with his friend, they were playing around and they wanna go home really fast. They just cross from private property. That is where someone saw and call 9 1 1. We came from the culture that we love to go people home , walking around, playing around. My husband came here in 2011. The incident happened on 2013. He just, came here without knowing culture, without knowing languages, So he has no idea. So when somebody called 9 1 1, he could not explain what happened. First of all, English is his second language, he was barely here without knowing rules and regulation, without knowing culture. The police took him to jail, gave a lot of charges. My husband doesn't know what are those charges? At that time, nobody explained, this is the three charges you got, and this could lead to deportation. He feel guilty without knowing those charges. He trusts [00:14:00] Nepali translate guy, and he told my husband, if you don't say I'm guilty, you will end up in prison for 20 to 25 years, but if you say I'm guilty, you'll go home. My husband said, guilty. At that time, neither criminal lawyer told my husband, if you say I'm guilty, you'll end up getting deport. Deport to the country that you are you never born. Deport To the country, you doesn't even speak their language. The lawyer did not explain my husband you will not gonna get your green card. You cannot apply your citizenship in your life. If those things the lawyer told my husband at that time, he will never gonna say, I am guilty to the crime that he did not even commit. When they tried to deport my husband back then, Bhutan say, he's not my citizenship, he's not from my country, We don't know this guy. He's not belongs to here. When US Embassy reach out to, Nepal, do you know this guy? They told, ICE no, we don't know this guy, like he's not belongs here. The ICE officer, told my husband, we can let you go, you need to come here, like order of supervision every three months, every six months, whenever we call you. It been 11 years. My husband is following rules and regulation. He never did any violation after that. He got married, he has a life, he pay taxes. He was taking care of his family and in 11 years he was doing everything. In 2025 for the first time they target Bhutanese Nepali community. I knew that this is the last time I'm gonna see my husband. I broke down. When they detained my husband in April 8, I was eight months pregnant. We dream a lot of things we are gonna take care of our daughter. We are gonna buy home, we are gonna work, we are gonna give her the life that we, I'm sorry. Miko Lee: Totally. Okay. Tika Basnet: I never thought like Bhutanese community can, like deport. Like my parent already go through this trauma, when Bhutan throw them away due to ethnic cleansing and same thing happening to us. It is unbelievable. I cannot believe that, we're going through this again and I don't know when this gonna be stopped. I don't know whether like my husband gonna come home. It is been five month and I really want my husband back. My daughter is, three month old. She need her dad in life 'cause I cannot provide everything by myself. My husband is the main provider for her aging parent. 'cause even now they cannot pay bills. I'm fighting for my husband case and I want my husband back. He deserve second chance because if you see his record is clean, like for one incident that happened like 12 years ago, that cannot define my husband. I cannot believe that my husband is able to get deport to the country that doesn't even accept. I don't know whether he gonna get killed. Whether he gonna disappear, I don't know what will happen to him. I don't know if it is last time I'm gonna see him. Miko Lee: Tika, thank you so much for sharing your story. Just to recap really briefly, your husband, Mohan Karki when he was a teenager, newly arrived in the country, was leaving high school, walked with his friends through a backyard and was racially profiled. The neighbor called police because he was trespassing on property. He was born at a refugee camp. Is that right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Miko Lee: There was not property that was like person's property on that refugee camp. So that whole concept of walking across somebody's land was something he was not aware of. He had an interpreter that did not give correct information. And so he signed something, including a deportation order, that he wasn't even aware of until recently when he was put into detention. Is that right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Yes. Miko Lee: Right now he's in detention. You live in Ohio, but he's in detention in Michigan, right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Miko Lee: Okay, Tika, let's talk about Mohans case and what's happening. He's held in detention right now in a detention facility in Michigan. What is going on with his case? Tika Basnet: His criminal attorney file, a Motion to Redeem asking BIA to send that, case back to Georgia. His case, that happened in 2013. Our attorney just submit documentation where he's asking to release my husband because it'd been five month. He's not risk to the community. He's not risk to the flight 'cause he doesn't have no one in Bhutan. He doesn't have no one in Nepal. All family is in here. His community love him ,he has family that loves him. We also get lot of documentations as a proof telling ICE that my husband is not risk to the community or to the flight. Miko Lee: Thank you. He has a a four month old baby that he has yet to meet. So that is a powerful reason to stay. As Tikas pointing out, the lawyer just submitted documentation along with 50 letters of support from the community from employers, from family members, all saying why he should stay in this country. Thank you so much for sharing. Anne, i'm wondering if you could share about what happened to your husband. He was also born in a refugee camp, right? Ann Vue: Lue was born in Nangkai, Thailand refugee camp in 1978. In1979 his parents and him and his older brother Granted urgent humanitarian reasons for or for public benefit. They made it to America right before Halloween. The early nineties, me even being the first generation American here, racism played a lot. We all went through that piece and our parents not speaking English at the same time, they were going to school themselves so that they can learn our English language, . They weren't able to teach us growing up. We had to fend for ourselves. I would say my husband he went out with some friends. He did not commit the crime. But of course now that is brought back to him, he understood about his particular case is second attempt, home invasion. Nobody was harmed. He was in the vehicle, in the backseat when he was caught. He didn't wanna partake, but he didn't wanna stop them either 'cause to him it was like, if I don't partake, then I have nothing to do with it. . Because if I do, then they might not be my friends anymore. It's just a part of growing up as a youth. Because he was there, and then would receive a court appointed attorney, and then provide it very similar to Tika's too. Had an interpreter, that was explaining to them, was provided bad legal advice. He had no knowledge about how this would impact his immigration status. It was advised by their attorney, take the plea it's easier, and you probably serve less than a year. You'll be out, you'll only be in the county jail anyways 'cause you didn't really commit the crime and technically it should have been a misdemeanor. But because you're an accomplice, that kind of falls under this category. So he took the plea, he served 10 months in a county jail. He actually was released for good behavior. He even finished his probation soon because he paid all of his stuff off. He even finished a youth advocate program for anybody that committed crimes between the age of 18 to 21. I just saw this form the other day and I was reading it and it talks about, the one thing about our parents, experiencing the war and coming to America, they don't talk about it. A lot of us are from communist countries. We are very afraid to voice our voices, because someone can take action. Our parents never talked about it. I read what he wrote to his, youth coordinator, he felt so bad about what he did. He created disappointment for his parents and he understands, there are sacrifices that got us here to America. He literally wrote all of this down, i'm going to be a better person. I'm going to make my parents proud now that I understand their sacrifices. They asked him, ” what was your upbringing like?” He wrote, “poor” and the coordinator wrote on the bottom of his comments said, “Lue is remorseful for what has happened and he wants to be a better person. I have no other questions. The training is complete.” He doesn't need any further, support and believes that he will move forward to be a better person. That's literally what they wrote on the document. Then fast forwarding to 1999 that's when, immigration showed up at his house. Him and I would meet in 2000, and then we'd be married in 2001. We'd celebrate. Almost 24 and a half years of marriage. We did appeal his case in the humanitarian piece of what this meant for Lue during the time where we all fled the country. Once the monks were declared enemy of the state by the LDR in Laos, we fled. It's well documented that there was a little bit over 400,000 of us there right after the genocide and the killings of the Hmong there was probably less than 45,000 of us left. Once we understood a lot of that, we wanted to do better. We wanted to really service our community. We appealed the case. The case was then denied in his appeal letters, general Vink Powell, which led the Hmongs during the war, even had a letter where he, also pled why Hmongs need to stay here in America. And why we need to bring the rest of our people to this country. The reality is our whole family, Lue's whole family was wiped out. We don't have anybody, Lue doesn't have anyone. That goes to Tika's thing too. There's nobody there. Going back to the case once it was denied in 2002. He then was forced to reach out to the embassy and was denied, entry into Thailand 'cause that's where he was born. We're stateless too, just like Tikas husband. We were denied by Thailand. We were denied by Laos stating that we are not a citizen of theirs. They do not allow or welcome any sort of entry. In 2006, they actually took his green card and then we again were denied. In 2008 we were denied a third time and that's when his immigration officer was like, just move on and start your life. Laos and Thailand, will never sign a repatriation act with America because of you guys, because of the Hmong people, what you guys have done to their country, making it the most bombed country during the war without even being a part of the war. They will never allow you guys back. So we were like, okay. So we moved forward. Then in 2014, this immigration officer, which we was doing yearly checkups at this time, was like, Hey go get your citizenship, get your green card. They're like you're doing so good. You probably could have a chance to get it. We moved forward to apply for citizenship and for the green card. We were denied in 2015 and we know how expensive this is. You pay $10,000 outright, you don't get that money back. You just have to go at it again. We decided that, we're gonna get his case expunged, and we got his case expunged in 2018. No questions asked. It was very straightforward. Once it was expunged, we continued with our [00:26:00] lives. Very involved in the community. We had six kids . This year we even called his immigration officer and he was like, “Hey, don't worry about it, Lue, we're moving you over to Grand Rapids and you should be fine. Just make sure that you stay outta trouble, continue to follow your stock.” I think what triggered it was when we applied for his work permit in April. He always meets his immigration officer at the end of the year, and we renewed his work permit is what triggered it. The money was cashed out, everything the checks went through while we were receiving that, he was gonna be here, everything was gonna be fine. Then July 15th he was detained at work, six 30 in the morning, the detained officer they told him they know who he is to the community, so they have to do it this way because they don't want any problems. They don't want media, they don't want reporters. He did ask them because he rode his motorcycle for some weird reason. He has not taken his bike out, his motorcycle out in the last three years. But for some reason that night he was like, I just wanna take my bike. So he took his bike that night and when ICE told him, do you have somebody come get your bike? You need to call somebody to come get your bike. He was like, nobody in my family rides motorcycles. I don't have anyone to come get my bike. I think there was some empathy and compassion for him. My husband was like, can I just take my bike back? I've got six kids. I've got my grandma at home and my parents are also at my house right now. I just wanna see them and wanna take my bike back. They asked him, “if we let you go, please don't run.” They followed my husband home and my husband literally called me at 6 37 in the morning and he was like, Hey, ICE is, here they got me. I'm like, “what? What's going on?” It was just so surreal. I was so shocked. It's a 30 minute drive. When he got there, they were already officers, packed tight in our driveway. We live in the country. There were like five or six cop cars there too. We had to walk about half a mile down to go see him. They wouldn't allow him to enter where our home was. The officer told, my husband, told him that they're so sorry. They have to do it this way. They know who he is. They don't want any problems, they don't want any reports in media out here. I will say my experience was a little bit different from others. They did take their mask off when they took him in, they were respectful. They even, talk to my two older boys like, Hey, you guys have money. I could put the money in your dad's account. We're, take him into Grand Rapids, we're gonna process him, and then we're gonna take him to the detention center, which is gonna be in Michigan. They were very open about these steps . My grandma has chronic pulmonary disease stage four. We couldn't haul her fast enough because we only saw him for like maybe a quick minute, and that was it. They did ask us to turn around because they had to take him back and they didn't want our little ones to see them cuffing him. Miko Lee: They actually said, Anne, we don't want any media to be watching this? Ann Vue: I don't want any problems. Miko Lee: Your husband is also quite well known in the Hmong community, right? So probably, they were worried about folks coming out and protesting. Is that, do you think that was the case? Ann Vue: That's what I'm assuming. I don't remember their exact words saying media, but do remember that they didn't want people around, they didn't want to create issues for the community. Because if he would've gotten the letter just like everybody did, which everybody then would receive the letter on Friday, and because my husband is a community leader, he is the Hmong Family Association's president, we restart receiving many, many calls where everybody just wanted to talk to Lue 'cause they needed to know what's going on, how to handle, what to do. At that moment I realized, oh my gosh, they detained my husband first. Then everybody else got a letter. Miko Lee: And the ICE officer that he had been checking in with routinely has he been in touch with him since he was detained? Ann Vue: He hasn't. Miko Lee: So they had different people come in even, 'cause he was the person that said everything's okay, keep going with your life. Ann Vue: Oh yeah. Miko Lee: And so no contact with him whatsoever since the detention? Ann Vue: No. Miko Lee: Okay. Thank you so much. I just wanna point out, for all of our listeners, how many similarities there are in these two cases. In both of these amazing women are here supporting their spouses. Both spouses born in refugee camps. Dealing with intergenerational trauma from families that had to escape ethnic cleansing or involved in a war, came into the United States under, legal properties through refugee resettlement acts, made mistakes as young people, partially due to culture and wanting to fit in. They served their time, they paid their dues. They were racially profiled. They suffered from incredible immigration policy failure with bad advice, with a system that's broken. Now both of them are detained. Not yet deported, but detained. Many of the community members have already been deported and they're facing statelessness. We're seeing this not just with Bhutanese and Hmong folks, but with Mien and Lao and Haitian and El Salvadorian. We could fill in the blank of how many other peoples in other communities are facing this. We also know that these private detention centers where people are being held, are making millions and millions of dollars, and it's connected into our corrupt political system that's in place right now. Aisa, I'm wondering if you could, talk about the case, but also about some of the deals that we think have had to be made with Laos and Bhutan in order for these deportations to even take place. So Aisa from Asian Law Caucus, I'm gonna pass it to you to go over some of the legal ramifications. Aisa Villarosa: Of course, Miko, and thank you for it for the context. There are so many parallels that we as advocates must uplift because this is not the time to be divided. This is the time to build solidarity that we've long known needs to happen. What Miko is referring to is largely something that we've observed around the travel  bans. Earlier this year, right around the time that the Trump administration took hold, there was a draft travel ban list that leaked across a number of media outlets, the Times, et cetera, and the same countries we're talking about today, Bhutan, Laos. These were historically not countries that were subject to sanctions, like the travel ban, and yet here they were. A lot of us were scratching our heads and asking, why is this happening? Our theory, and this is a theory that is now also manifesting in a number of FOIA requests or Freedom of Information Act requests that are submitted from Asian Law Caucus to departments like the State Department ice, the Department of Homeland Security. Asking the same question that Tika and Anne are asking, which is, how are these deportations even happening? They were not happening until this year. What very likely happened was a bit of a quid pro quo. So in removing Bhutan, removing Laos from this list where they could be sanctioned as a country, there was likely some backdoor deal that took place between the US State Department and Bhutanese officials and the US officials, where essentially there was some form of an agreement that there would be an acceptance or a supposed acceptance of a certain number of folks from these communities. That is why around March, for the Bhutanese refugee community, for example, we started seeing pickups very similar to Mohan's case, where, many people who had perhaps made some mistakes in their youth or had really old criminal convictions were swept off the streets and thrust into these really rapid deportation proceedings. I don't even know if proceedings is the right word, because there essentially was no proceeding. The Immigration Court is very much a cloaked process. The immigration judge is kind of judge and jury wrapped up together, which is very different than many of us might turn on the TV and see something like Law and order. An immigration court works a very different way where this piece of paper, this final removal order, basically gives ICE a lot of bandwidth to make these deportations happen. However, that doesn't mean we should just accept that this is happening. We know that just basic procedures of fairness are not being met. We know, too that in the case of, for example, the Bhutanese community ICE officers have come to the wrong house. And put a lot of people in fear. So racial profiling was happening even before this recent Supreme Court decision, which essentially now condones racial profiling, as criteria that the ICE can use. I also just wanted to talk about this trend too, we're seeing with so many cases. It happened to Lue, it happened to Mohan, where in someone's underlying criminal court case, maybe they were given a court appointed attorney. In many cases, they were not told of the immigration impacts of, say, taking a plea. There is a Supreme Court case called Padilla versus Kentucky and basically the law shifted such that in many cases there now is a duty for a court appointed public defender to actually talk to folks like Mohan and Lue about the immigration consequences of their plea. So when Tika mentioned that there's something called a post-conviction relief effort for Mohan. That's happening in Georgia. This is very much what that legal defense looks like, where, an expert attorney will look at that very old court record, see if those rights were violated, and also talk to Mohan and make sure did that violation happen and is that grounds for reopening an immigration case. For Lue, there is a really mighty pardoning campaign that's brewing in the state of Michigan. So in Michigan, governor Gretchen Whitmer does have the authority to in some cases expedite a pardon in process. Unfortunately in the immigration arena the expungement does not have that same weight as say a vacating, or a motion to vacate that criminal record. So it's super frustrating because, so much of this turns ethically, morally on- do we, as people believe in second chances, and I know most people do, and yet here we are really. Based on a technicality. I also just want to name too that Lue as a person is both a natural organizer and he is a spiritual guide of his community. So something that many folks don't know is because of so much of the trauma that Anne talked about, both from, supporting the Americans during the Secret War, many Hmong folks who came to the States, they actually in some cases died in their sleep because of this, almost unexplained weight of the trauma. It almost underscores the importance of Lue, not just to his family, but this family is a collective family. He's both a mentor for so many, he's a spiritual guide for so many. Him being away from his family, away from community, it's like a double, triple wound. for Mohan, I'd love to uplift this memory I have of a moment in June when Tika gave us a call, and at that point, Mohan had called Tika and said, they're taking me, I'm being deported. At that point, they were removing Mohan from the ICE facility in Butler, Ohio and transporting him to the Detroit airport or that deportation to Bhutan. Tika was forced to essentially delay her childbirth. It was very much in the range of when she was due to give birth to their daughter. But because the clock was ticking, Tika drove to Butler, literally begged for Mohans life as our organizing and advocacy and legal team was trying to get together this emergency stay of deportation. That fortunately came through at the 11th hour. But the fact that Mohan remains in this facility in St. Clair, Michigan, that he's never held his daughter is unacceptable, is ridicuLues. I think so much of these two cases almost, this invisible brotherhood of pain that I know Ann has talked to me about that. Because Lue right now has been in a couple facilities. He is organizing, he's doing his thing and actually supporting folks while also just trying to keep himself well, which is no easy feat to do in so many of these facilities. Especially because, in Alexandria, for example, which is a facility in Louisiana. We know that folks are sleeping on cement floors. We know that folks are not being fed, that there's a lot of human rights violations going on. Here is Lue still continuing to use his voice and try to advocate for the folks around him. Miko Lee: Aisa thank you so much for putting that into context, and we'll put links in the show notes for how folks can get involved in both of these cases. One is, Rising Voices call to action for Lue. We encourage folks to do that. In terms of Mohan, there's a GoFundMe to help support Tika and the immense lawyer fees, and also a letter writing campaign to the ICE director Kevin Roff, to try and release Mohan and Lue. These are really important things that are happening in our community, and thank you for being out there. Thank you for talking and sharing your stories. We really appreciate you. And also, just briefly, I'd love us for us to talk for a minute about how many folks in our Asian American communities, we don't wanna talk about mistakes that we have made in the past because we might consider that shameful. And therefore, in both of these communities, when we started organizing, it was really hard at first to find people to come forth and share their stories. So I wonder if both of you can give voice to a little about that, the power you found in yourself to be able to come forward and speak about this, even though some other folks in the community might not feel comfortable or strong enough to be able to talk. Tika, can you speak to that? Tika Basnet: What makes me really strong, and I wanna see that my husband case is because he was 17, people can make mistake and from those mistake, if people are learning. Americans should consider, 'cause my husband did make mistake and I wish that time he knew the rules and regulation. I wish somebody taught him that he's not supposed to go somebody else property, around in backyard. I wish he was been in the United States like more than , one and a half year. I wish, if he was like more than two years, three years. I think that time he, from high school, he could learn. He's not supposed to go there. He was just been in the United States like one and a half year just going to high school. Nobody taught him. His parent doesn't even speak English. Until now, they doesn't even speak, like nobody in our community knew rules and regulation. He doesn't have guide, mentor to taught him like, and even though he did make mistake and he's really sorry, and from those mistake learning a lot, and he never get into trouble, after 11 years, he was clean, he work, he pay taxes. That is the reason that I really wanna come forward. People can make mistake, but learning from those mistake that changed people life. The reason that I'm coming forward is because organization like Asian Law Caucus, ARU, and, Miko, a lot of people helped me. They taught me like people can make mistake and, we shouldn't be same. I really wanna give example to my daughter, that, you are fighting for justice and you shouldn't fear. What is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. But if somebody's make mistake and they are not, doing that mistake again, I think the people can get a second chance. My husband deserves second chance. He's 30 years old. He has a family, he has a wife, children and he deserved to be here. We came here legally, my husband came here. Legally, we, promise that we'll get home and this is our home. We wanna stay here and I really want my husband be home soon so he can play with her daughter to play with his daughter. Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Tika. Ann I wonder if you could talk to the strength that it takes for you to come forward and speak about your husband and your family. Ann Vue: I'm a community leader with my husband. There was a moment when he was first detained where I was in complete silence. I was so shocked. It took my attorney, Nancy, just talking to me about it. Of course, back to what Aisa said earlier in our communities, we're afraid. I was so scared. I didn't know what to do. It took me visiting my husband in Baldwin and letting him know that, hey, a bunch of community members are now reaching out. And that's that. At that moment, he was like, you have to say something. You have to say something you have to make noise because you have a, 50% chance, right? We have a 50 50 chance. 50%. They're gonna send me 50%. You're gonna feel bad if you don't say anything, right? 50 here, 50 there. It doesn't matter. But a hundred percent regret if you don't say something. I thought about it and he was like, well, go out there, be my voice. He's like, you've always been my voice. You got this right. I didn't say no to Nancy. 'cause she really wanted to talk to our rep Mai you know about this. Mai and I are pretty close too. , I just knew if I said anything, Mai's gonna be like mm-hmm. All the way. I just let Nancy help me, and my most vulnerable time. I'm glad that she did. I'm glad that we did get this out. It is the most important thing for us. what keeps me going is all of those that have been impacted by this, from people like Tika. I have many, I call 'em sisters. We're all in a lot of these group chats together. They've been also keeping me going. Our amazing team of attorneys and everybody just strategizing through this unprecedented time. It's really everyone's voices. I get to talk to Lue daily. It's definitely not cheap, but he gets to share each story of each person. I believe that everybody has a story and they might not be as lucky as maybe Tika or my husband, but at least now I have their story. I will be their voice. I will tell each person's story, each name, each alien number that I track down, my husband's even literally learned how to count in Spanish, just so he can give them like my phone number in Spanish in case they need to call an emergency. Oh, I'm be getting a lot of calls. that is what keeps me going because I think that Tika and I and many others are, hoping that there is going to be a better day, a brighter day. I hope that everyone can see that, our children are American, right? Our children, they deserve to have their fathers and their mothers. They deserve to grow with these parents. And with that being said, the most important thing to me is they're not just bystanders. They're literally the future of America. I don't want them growing up with trauma, with trying to ask me questions “well mom, if we're refugees and we helped, Americans as allies, and we come to this country, why is this payback like this?” There's a moral obligation that has to be there and they're gonna grow up and they're gonna be trauma by this. I've got children right now that's been talking about joining the National Guard. It speaks volume about what happens to my husband. He's championed the Hmong, Michigan Special Gorilla unit, the Hmong veterans here in the last two years, really  with helping them through resolutions, tributes, making sure that they have things, that they are out there, that people now know them, they are finally recognized. This puts my husband at great danger by sending him back, because now he's championed the veterans here. He celebrates our veterans here. So it's a moral obligation. I hope that, and this is to every child, I hope that every child, they deserve their father's presence. There are many people who don't even have their father's presence and they wish their fathers were around. Our fathers wanna be around. I hope that our daughter, I only have one daughter too, that someday they can, their fathers can be a part of their, the American culture. I hope that we get that opportunity and I hope that somebody stop being scared, but turn around and help us. Help us. We came here legally, minor stuff, long decade old. This detainment has been worse than when he did time back in 1997. I just hope that somebody hears our podcast, Miko. Thank you. Aisa and Tika. And they turn and they have some compassion and help us because this is the tone that we're setting for the future of our American children. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Tika, you wanna add? Tika Basnet: Yes, I really wanna talk about what kind of husband Mohan is. Even though like he detained for five month I put lot of money in his account and there was one guy, his family cannot support him. For me, it is really hard. I'm not working. But even my husband called me you don't need to put like money in my account, but can you please can you please put money in his account? He did not eat food. His family did not have money. I can survive without eating food. I think his story is really touching me. My husband was crying listening to that guy story in detention center and then I did put like $50 in his account. My husband is giving person. He love to give even though, he struggle a lot, even though, he doesn't know what will happen when he get deport. But, him saying other guy story. Does make him cry. I think this is the reason that I really wanna come forward. My husband is giving person, he's lovely person, he's caring person. That is the reason I wanna come forward. I want people to hear our voice, rather than silent. Right now people know our story. But if I was silent then I don't know whether my husband was already disappear. I don't know whether he gonna die torture or maybe he will expel within 24 hours. I have no idea. My husband is number one support system for me, because of him I'm here sharing his story. For years I had wonderful time with him. We build our dream and until 2025, our dream is destroy. I'm trying to build again. I'm hoping, my husband is coming home soon and I'm hoping that this will be the last time that he will get detained. I hope that this will be the end. I don't want him to get detained or deported again. I'm really tired. I don't know what to do. I'm hopeless. I hope listening to my story and Ann's story that separating family is not good. It is affecting not only one person but his whole community, whole family. We deserve to get our husband back. It is not only about the wife that is fighting for husband, it is the children. They're so small, they born here and we cannot raise alone, we cannot work. We have things to pay. Paying bills and taking care of child alone is really difficult. It's been five month. I went through postpartum depression, I went through trauma and I don't wanna deal anymore. Like I don't have courage to do this anymore. We need our husband back. Miko Lee: Thank you. I think both of your husbands are also main caregivers for parents that are ailing in both cases. It's a really important that we are intergenerational communities and as you both said, it's not just about the children, but it's also about parents and brothers and sisters and community members as well. Thank you so much for lifting up your stories. I just wanna go back for one more thing. We talked briefly about the crazy expensive lawyer fees that have come up for families that they've been dealing with this, and then also Tika was just bringing up about detention and commissary fees. Can you talk a little bit about the prison industrial complex and the fees that are associated? As Anne was saying, just calling Lue every day the costs that are associated with those things. Many people that don't have a family member that's incarcerated don't know about that. Can you share a little bit about what that system is? Aisa Villarosa: Yeah, absolutely Miko. Just to underscore, a big theme from this conversation, is that the US made commitments and they have broken them, both with, as Anne talked about, the refugee experience is one that is made possible through US commitment of acknowledging what, people have survived, what they have given to the country. Folks are being removed to countries where not only do they have zero ties to, don't speak the language, but, especially in the case of the Bhutanese refugee community, as Tika mentioned, it is truly a double expulsion. So the fact that we have well-documented testimonials of folks deported from Bhutan after they're removed there into these life-threatening conditions . A community member passed away in large part because of the failure of the US to both care for them while in detention. So going back to that prison complex, but also just putting them in such a harrowing situation. In another instance, a community member was found after wandering for over a hundred miles on foot. So this is not, deportation and the story ends. This is deportation and, there is a family that is grieving and thinking through next steps, there is, this call to not have borders, break us the way that this country is trying to do. And to say a little bit about the fees, USCIS, there, there has not been a point yet in history where so many changes and charges hurting families have been ushered in, But for this year. To give a couple examples of that – asylum cases for one, these often take many years through this administration. Now, families have to pay a cost yearly for each year that your asylum application, languishes because we're also seeing that those same folks who are supposed to process these applications are either being laid off or they're being militarized. So something like USCIS where this was where one would go to apply for a passport. Now the same department is literally being handed guns and they're now taking folks during naturalization interviews. Other avenues to challenge your removal. Like I mentioned a motion to reopen. All these things used to be fairly affordable. Now they can cost many thousands of dollars on top of the attorney fees. So something that's been quite challenging for groups like Asian Law Caucus where we do have attorneys representing folks in removal proceedings, there's often this misperception that oh it's costing so much money. Attorneys are pocketing cash. Unfortunately there are some situations where attorneys have been known to take advantage of families in this desperate moment. But for many, many attorneys who are in this mix, they're experts at this work. They're trying to do the right thing. They're both overwhelmed and they're seeing these new charges, which make the battle really even more difficult. So to turn it back to the listeners, I would say that as powerless as this moment can make us feel everyone is bearing witness. Hopefully the listeners today can take in Anne's story, can take in Tika's story and whatever power one has in their corner of the world, this is the moment to use that. Whether it's your voice, whether it's learning more about a community, maybe you're learning about for the first time. This is really the moment to take action. Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. I wanna thank you all for being here with me today, for sharing your personal stories, your personal pain, and for recognizing that this is happening. We deeply believe that we need to keep our families together. That is really important. It is written into the very basis of this American country about redemption and forgiveness. And this is what we're talking about for misunderstandings that happened when these folks were young men, that they have paid for their time, and yet they're being punished again, these promises that were broken by this American government, and we need to find ways to address that. I really wanna deeply thank each of you for continuing to be there for sharing your voice, for protecting one another, for being there and standing up for your family and for our community. Thank you for joining me today. Check out our Apex Express Show notes to find out about how you can get involved. Learn about the Rising Voices campaign for Lue Yang and Mohan Khaki's GoFundMe. On November 3rd, 4:00 PM Pacific Time, 7:00 PM Eastern Time. Join us for We Belong here, Bhutanese and Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness, a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great night.     The post APEX Express – 10.30.25-We Belong! appeared first on KPFA.

It's almost October 31st so join your Afternoona's Megan, Amy and Lia for a conversation on all that frights and delights with Korean Dramas. What hair gave you a jump scare? Best villain? Ideas for future scary dramas? Also, Lia fights her yearly (lonely) battle demanding justice for Almond Joys. Ready to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Join Lia and Megan as we do 5 minutes (yep, we brought out the timers—Not Today, procrastination!) of hot takes on each member. What have they been up to? What might be Yet to Come? From Dior to medical centers, from CK to Celine...and of course comeback. This episode is pure Dynamite, so get ready to Run with us.Join The BTS Buzz and get access to Afternoona Army's exclusive DISCORD channel, get shout outs on-air in podcast, and receive invitations to quarterly live support groups. Questions? Email afternoonaarmy@gmail.com for more information.Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Check out our sister pod www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest members of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Want to find more great BTS content? Head over to Afternoona Army for more takes on Bangtan life and links to our social media.

Follow me on X (@chinaadventures) where I post new China city prayer profiles every single day. Send any notes or comments to bfwesten at gmail dot com and find much more, including my missionary biographies, at PrayGiveGo.us! Today I begin by discussing Trump’s visit to Malaysia (today!) and how he is likely perceived by Malaysians (and Asians in general), plus a note about Doug Wilson’s Open Letter to Trump and its availability here in Malaysia (and everywhere). Check out (and share!) Doug's message to Trump at: TrumpRepent.my Next we look at this week’s Chinese cities to pray for (x.com/china.myadventures, PrayforChina.us), including a deeper look at an early missionary to Mongolia (James Gilmour: https://www.missionary.com/articles/who-was-james-gilmour). Pray for China places of the week https://chinacall.substack.com/p/pray-for-china-oct-27-nov-2-2025 Luke McKinney, the Podcast Ninja from the Comedian Next Door podcast, joins me for the second half of the podcast in a conversation we recorded earlier today (Noon on Saturday Malaysia time, Midnight Eastern): The Comedian Next Door Podcast: https://pubtv.flfnetwork.com/tabs/the-pub/podcasts/8295 We discussed our respective NBA teams (Pacers & Thunder) for the first 20 minutes or so, before moving on to a number of China related topics including Hong Kong freedom (or not), the restrictions on Chinese churches, and LeBron and the NBA’s nefarious relationship with China. Finally, the last few minutes of the podcast take us to the topic of deer hunting, but Luke’s only been out two more times than I have (and I haven’t been out at all, here in Malaysia). Subscribe to China Compass and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. Follow us on X (@chinaadventures), and find much more @ PrayGiveGo.us. Luke 10, verse 2, the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Talk again soon!

This week we're framing our Uncensored episode around the ideas of escape and comfort. What dramas help us escape? What dramas bring us comfort? And how do the two idea overlap? Amy and Megan also offer their reactions to Genie Make a Wish, episode 1 to see if their thoughts sell Lia on the drama. Book Recommendation: Forbidden Wish by Jessica KhouryReady to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

This week Greg and Ed have a bit of fun revisiting an old blog post from Greg about what would be the best slogans for various malls around Bangkok. As most listeners know, Bangkok may very well be the capital city of malls and mall culture, and each mall seems to have its own identity. The guys walk through Greg's somewhat salty slogans from ten years ago to see if they are still valid.  Here are some representative examples: MBK - “Not even we know what stores lurk in our dark corners and forgotten depths.” Ed chuckles at the appropriateness of the slogan, given that MBK seems chock full of unexpected side areas and forgotten hallways. EmQuartier - “Come for the cool food hall and interesting stores. Stay because you can't find the exit.” Once again, Ed concurs, having just been at the infamously architecturally complex mall. Central World - “Stop whining, the 5 km walk will do you good.” With its renovations over the years, this mall has undoubtedly improved, but one fact can't be denied: it's freaking huge. So if you need some more steps to get to your 10k for the day, this is the mall to do it. Ed even chimes in with some of his own slogans for Bangkok's new malls, such as Icon Siam: “A mall designed 100% for Asians: as long as you are a rich Chinese tourist.” This time Greg nods his head in agreement. Listen in for our take on the bounty of unique malls through the city.  Don't forget that Patrons get the ad-free version of the show as well as swag and other perks. We also sometimes post on Facebook, you can contact us on LINE and of course, head to our website (www.bangkokpodcast.com) to find out probably more info than you need to know.  

In this week's episode, we discuss time travel in all its forms, from our experiences writing it, to our enjoyment of watching it in Kdramas. Books mentioned:Puck and Prejudice by Lia RileyI Love you Like It's 1999 by A.J. PineThe Seven Year Slip by Ashley PostonOona Out of Order by Margarita MontimoreThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe Husbands by Holly GramazioReady to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Before Parasite made him a household name, Bong Joon-ho crafted a haunting masterpiece. Memories of Murder (released in 2003) tells the story of two detectives in 1980s rural South Korea hunting the country's first known serial killer...a case that would remain unsolved for over 30 years. Based on the true story of the Hwaseong serial murders, the film is a devastating exploration of incompetence, corruption, and misogyny. Join Lia & Megan as we revisit the muddy fields, cramped interrogation rooms, and that final iconic haunting shot. Note: We recorded this episode in early June right before Lia went to South Korea. This was before we began using video software so please note that component won't be included in this episode. Ready to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

To celebrate this week's release of a NEW Taylor Swift album, Lia and Megan indulged their Swiftie, Amy, in a fun little exercise. The game? Assigning TS song titles--one from each album--to the K-Drama we think it embodies. That's it! Mouse crypt and true crime stories are just the icing on the cake. We hope you'll play along!Spotify Playlist for this Episode"I Did Something Bad" from Reputation TourReady to download your first audiobook? Don't forget to click HERE for your free Audible trial.*Audible is a sponsor of Afternoona Delight Podcast*Are your family and friends sick of you talking about K-drama? We get it...and have an answer. Join our AfterNoona Delight Patreon and find community among folks who get your obsession. And check out www.afternoonadelight.com for more episodes, book recs and social media goodness. And don't forget about the newest member of our network: Afternoona Asks where diaspora Asians living in the West find ways to reconnect to Asian culture via Asian/KDramas.Last but CERTAINLY not least....love BTS? Or curious what all the fuss is about? Check out our sister pod Afternoona Army for "thinky, thirsty and over thirty" takes on Bangtan life. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

The Asian Friends enjoy some rom-com weather. Jenny has a nice trip. Mic is a nano-influencer for a night.THE FAREWELL TOUR KICKOFFhttps://www.eventbrite.com/e/asian-not-asian-live-the-farewell-tour-kick-off-tickets-1656778251349F O L L O W U Shttps://www.instagram.com/asiannotasianpodhttps://www.instagram.com/nicepantsbrohttps://www.instagram.com/jennyarimoto/P A T R E O Nhttps://www.patreon.com/asiannotasianpod P A R T N E R S -Check out friend of the pod John's cabin on Airbnb! https://www.airbnb.com/slink/penXRFgl - Helix Sleep Mattress: visit helixsleep.com/asian - Nutrafol: www.nutrafol.com (Promo code: Asian) This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ASIAN and get on your way to being your best self.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

There are shit bags in every nation, race, continent, neighborhood..........   They come in every shape, size, and form.    I know a lot of good Asians, Blacks, Mexicans, Africans.......Europeans.....   I know the good and bad in every sector represented in the human race.    They're everywhere.    One thing I can tell you is, you can't group everyone into one category just because one of them has made mistakes or became a bad example for their people.    We can't lump people together in anything.    Operating with absolutes.    It cripples us as a whole.    What I can tell you is, we do have a responsibility to call people out of every race, creed, color, etc.    As the human race, we have to make clear the directions of what's acceptable and not acceptable in society.    So, the next time you hear someone of a certain race, color or creed did something fucked up, just know there's a counter balance in existence.    One person does not have the power or authority to represent one whole population or segment of people.    Keep it light and do right, no matter the shades of good and bad.    About the ReWire Podcast The ReWire Podcast with Ryan Stewman – Dive into powerful insights as Ryan Stewman, the HardCore Closer, breaks down mental barriers and shares actionable steps to rewire your thoughts. Each episode is a fast-paced journey designed to reshape your mindset, align your actions, and guide you toward becoming the best version of yourself. Join in for a daily dose of real talk that empowers you to embrace change and unlock your full potential.    Learn how you can become a member of a powerful community consistently rewiring itself for success at https://www.jointheapex.com/   Rise Above

whether you're from the east, the south, or the mid-west of the US, WE SEE YOU! jen, emily & madelyn dive into their backgrounds hailing from the tri-state area, texas, and the midwest, & how their journeys ultimately led them to the west coast where they reside today. 0:00 welcome to hot pursuit 1:55 jen's history with ABG  3:56 jen, em & madelyns coming together as nextgen 5:43 friendship dynamic between jen, em & madelyn 8:54 origins of the name “hot pursuit” 13:02 growing up in 3 different regions: tri-state, the south, the midwest 27:43 moving to the west coast & meeting california asians 32:31 why asian representation matters in media 35:17 how your proximity to asian communities shapes your views 38:30 moving to the west coast is a healing experience CONNECT WITH US Connect with us @thehotpursuitpod on Instagram/TikTok/Youtube.  Email us at hello@thehotpursuitpod.com.  THE HOT PURSUIT PODCAST Hosted and written by: Jennifer Han, Emily Lin, and Madelyn Ong Produced by: Hot Pursuit Media and AsianBossGirl Edited by: Josh Jang and ⁠AsianBossGirl Theme song: Shawn Halim Graphic art: Kelsey Cordutsky ig: @kcord0912 Motion graphics: Matt Ebling ig: @matt_ebling Special thanks: Travis Morningstar, Melody Cheng, Helen Wu Wang, Janet Wang, Josh Jang  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Last time we spoke about the battle of Nanjing. In December 1937, as the battle for Nanjing unfolded, terror inundated its residents, seeking safety amid the turmoil. General Tang Shengzhi rallied the Chinese forces, determined to defend against the advancing Japanese army. Fierce fighting erupted at the Gate of Enlightenment, where the determined Chinese soldiers resisted merciless assaults while tragedy loomed. By mid-December, the Japanese made substantial advances, employing relentless artillery fire to breach Nanjing's defenses. Leaders called for strategic retreats, yet amid chaos and despair, many young Chinese soldiers, driven by nationalism, continued to resist. By December 13, Nanjing succumbed to the invaders, marking a tragic chapter in history. As destruction enveloped the city, the resilience of its defenders became a poignant tale of courage amidst the horrors of war, forever marking Nanjing as a symbol of enduring hope in the face of despair.   #168 The Nanjing Massacre Welcome to the Fall and Rise of China Podcast, I am your dutiful host Craig Watson. But, before we start I want to also remind you this podcast is only made possible through the efforts of Kings and Generals over at Youtube. Perhaps you want to learn more about the history of Asia? Kings and Generals have an assortment of episodes on history of asia and much more  so go give them a look over on Youtube. So please subscribe to Kings and Generals over at Youtube and to continue helping us produce this content please check out www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals. If you are still hungry for some more history related content, over on my channel, the Pacific War Channel where I cover the history of China and Japan from the 19th century until the end of the Pacific War. So obvious disclaimer, today we will be talking about, arguably one of if not the most horrific war atrocities ever committed. To be blunt, it may have been worse than some of the things we talked about back during the fall of the Ming Dynasty, when bandit armies raped and pillaged cities. The Nanjing Massacre as its become known is well documented by both Chinese and foreign sources. There is an abundance of primary sources, many well verified. Its going to be extremely graphic, I am going to try and tell it to the fullest. So if you got a weak stomach perhaps sit this one out, you have been warned. Chen Yiding began evacuating his troops from the area surrounding the Gate of Enlightenment before dawn on December 13. En route to Xiaguan, he took the time to visit a dozen of his soldiers housed in a makeshift hospital located in an old cemetery. These men were too severely injured to participate in the evacuation, and Chen had to leave them with only a few words of encouragement. Little did he know, within days, they would all perish in their beds, victims of the Japanese forces. Upon arriving in Xiaguan later that morning, Chen was met with grim news: his divisional commander had crossed the Yangtze River with his chief of staff the previous afternoon. Now, he was on his own. He didn't linger near the riverside chaos, quickly realizing there was nothing he could do there. Instead, he chose to move downstream, hoping to find a secure spot for himself and his soldiers to wait out the next few days before devising an escape from the war zone.  He was fortunate, for soon the Japanese would live up to their notorious reputation developed during their advance from Shanghai; they were not inclined to take prisoners. That afternoon, several hundred Chinese soldiers arrived at the northern end of the Safety Zone. The committee responsible for the area stated that they could offer no assistance. In a misguided attempt to boost morale, they suggested that if the soldiers surrendered and promised not to engage in combat, the Japanese would likely show them "merciful treatment." This optimism was woefully misplaced. Later that same day, Japanese troops entered the zone, dragging out 200 Chinese men, the majority of them soldiers, for execution just outside the city. On December 13, Japanese soldiers started patrolling the riverbank, shooting at anything and anyone floating downstream. Their comrades aboard naval vessels in the river cheered them on, applauding each time they struck another helpless victim in the water. Civilians were not spared either. While traveling through downtown Nanjing as the battle concluded, Rabe observed dead men and women every 100 to 200 yards, most of them shot in the back. A long line of Chinese men marched down the street, numbering in the hundreds, all destined for death. In a cruel twist, they were compelled to carry a large Japanese flag. They were herded into a vacant lot by a couple of Japanese soldiers and as recalled by American correspondent Archibald Steele "There, they were brutally shot dead in small groups. One Japanese soldier stood over the growing pile of corpses, firing into any bodies that showed movement." The killings commenced almost immediately after the fall of Nanjing. The victorious Japanese spread out into the city streets, seeking victims. Those unfortunate enough to be captured faced instant execution or were taken to larger killing fields to meet a grim fate alongside other Chinese prisoners. Initially, the Japanese targeted former soldiers, whether real or imagined, but within hours, the scope of victims expanded to include individuals of all age groups and genders. By the end of the first day of occupation, civilian bodies littered the streets of downtown Nanjing at a rate of roughly one per block. The defenseless and innocent were subjected to murder, torture, and humiliation in a relentless spree of violence that persisted for six harrowing weeks. At the time of the attack, Nanjing felt eerily abandoned, houses stood boarded up, vehicles lay toppled in the streets, and the once-ubiquitous rickshaws had vanished. However, hundreds of thousands remained hidden indoors, seeking refuge. The most visible sign of the city's new rulers was the display of the Japanese flag. On the morning of December 14, the Rising Sun flag was hoisted across the city, seen in front of private homes, businesses, and public buildings. Many of these flags were hastily made, often a simple white sheet with a red rag affixed, hoping to be spared. As the days progressed, horrifying accounts of violence began to emerge. A barber, the sole survivor among eight people in his shop when the Japanese arrived, was admitted to a hospital with a stab wound that had nearly severed his head from his body, damaging all muscles at the back of his neck down to his spinal canal. A woman suffered a brutal throat wound, while another pregnant woman was bayoneted in the abdomen, resulting in the death of her unborn child. A man witnessed his wife being stabbed through the heart and then saw his child hurled from a window to the street several floors below. These are but a few stories of individual atrocities committed. Alongside this there were mass executions, predominantly targeting young able-bodied men, in an effort to weaken Nanjing and deprive it of any potential resistance in the future. American professor, Lewis Smythe recalled “The disarmed soldier problem was our most serious one for the first three days, but it was soon resolved, as the Japanese shot all of them.” On the evening of December 15, the Japanese rounded up 1,300 former soldiers from the Safety Zone, binding them in groups of about 100 and marching them away in silence. A group of foreigners, permitted to leave Nanjing on a Japanese gunboat, accidentally became witnesses to the ensuing slaughter. While waiting for their vessel, they took a brief walk along the riverbank and stumbled upon a scene of mass execution, observing the Japanese shooting the men one by one in the back of the neck. “We observed about 100 such executions until the Japanese officer in charge noticed us and ordered us to leave immediately”. Not all killings were premeditated; many occurred impulsively. A common example was when Japanese soldiers led lines of Chinese POWs to holding points, tightly bound together with ropes. Every few yards, a Japanese soldier would stand guard with a fixed bayonet aimed at the prisoners as they trudged forward. Suddenly, one of the prisoners slipped, causing a domino effect as he fell, dragging down the men in front of and behind him. The entire group soon found themselves collapsed on the ground, struggling to stand. The Japanese guards lost their patience, jabbing their bayonets into the writhing bodies until none remained alive. In one of the largest massacres, Japanese troops from the Yamada Detachment, including the 65th Infantry Regiment, systematically executed between 17,000 and 20,000 Chinese prisoners from December 15 to 17. These prisoners were taken to the banks of the Yangtze River near Mufushan, where they were machine-gunned to death. The bodies were then disposed of by either burning or flushing them downstream. Recent research by Ono Kenji has revealed that these mass killings were premeditated and carried out systematically, in accordance with orders issued directly by Prince Asaka. A soldier from the IJA's 13th Division described killing wounded survivors of the Mufushan massacre in his diary “I figured that I'd never get another chance like this, so I stabbed thirty of the damned Chinks. Climbing atop the mountain of corpses, I felt like a real devil-slayer, stabbing again and again, with all my might. 'Ugh, ugh,' the Chinks groaned. There were old folks as well as kids, but we killed them lock, stock, and barrel. I also borrowed a buddy's sword and tried to decapitate some. I've never experienced anything so unusual”. Frequently, the Japanese just left their victims wherever they fell. Corpses began to accumulate in the streets, exposed to the elements and onlookers. Cars constantly were forced to run over corpses. Corpses were scavenged by stray dogs, which, in turn, were consumed by starving people. The water became toxic; workers in the Safety Zone discovered ponds clogged with human remains. In other instances, the Japanese gathered their machine-gunned or bayoneted victims into large heaps, doused them in kerosene, and set them ablaze. Archibald Steele wrote for the Chicago Daily News on December 17th “I saw a grisly scene at the north gate, where what was once a group of 200 men had become a smoldering mass of flesh and bones, so severely burned around the neck and head that it was difficult to believe he was still human.” During the chaos in the beginning, whereupon the Japanese had not yet fully conquered the city, its defenders scrambled desperately to escape before it was too late. Individually or in small groups, they sought vulnerabilities in the enemy lines, acutely aware that their survival hinged on their success. Months of conflict had trained them to expect no mercy if captured; previous experiences had instilled in them the belief that a swift death at the hands of the Japanese would be a fortunate outcome. On December 12, amid intense artillery fire and aerial bombardment, General Tang Sheng-chi issued the order for his troops to retreat. However, conflicting directives and a breakdown in discipline transformed the ensuing events into a disaster. While some Chinese units successfully crossed the river, a far greater number were ensnared in the widespread chaos that engulfed the city. In their desperation to evade capture, some Chinese soldiers resorted to stripping civilians of their clothing to disguise themselves, while many others were shot by their own supervisory units as they attempted to flee.Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of individual escape stories emerged from this period. In some rare instances, entire units, even up to divisional strength, successfully infiltrated Japanese lines to reach safety. For others, such as the 156th Division, there were detailed plans outlining escape routes from Nanjing. Several soldiers and officers adhered to this three-day trek, skillfully evading Japanese patrols until they reached Ningguo, located south of the capital. Nonetheless, these cases were exceptions. The vast majority of soldiers from China's defeated army faced significant risk and were more likely to be captured than to escape. Some of Chiang Kai-shek's most elite units suffered near total annihilation. Only about a thousand soldiers from the 88th Division managed to cross the Yangtze safely, as did another thousand from the Training Division, while a mere 300 from the 87th Division survived. Even for units like the 156th Division, the escape plans were only effective for those who learned of them. These plans were hurriedly disseminated through the ranks as defeat loomed, leaving mere chance to determine who received the information. Many stayed trapped in Nanjing, which had become a fatal snare. One day, Japanese soldiers visited schools within Nanjing's Safety Zone, aware that these locations sheltered many refugees. They called for all former soldiers to step forward, promising safety in exchange for labor. Many believed that the long days of hiding were finally coming to an end and complied with the request. However, they were led to an abandoned house, where they were stripped naked and bound together in groups of five. Outside, a large bonfire had been ignited. They were then bayoneted and, while still alive, thrown onto the flames. Only a few managed to escape and share the horrifying tale. The Japanese were of course well aware that numerous soldiers were hiding in Nanjing, disguised as locals, evidenced by the piles of military uniforms and equipment accumulating in the streets. Consequently, they initiated a systematic search for soldiers within hours of taking control. The Safety Zone was not spared, as the Japanese Army suspected that Chinese soldiers had sought refuge there. On December 16, they raided Ginling College, despite a policy prohibiting the admission of men, except for elderly residents in a designated dining room. The soldiers brought axes to force open doors that were not immediately complied with and positioned six machine guns on the campus, prepared to fire at anyone attempting to escape. Ultimately, they found nothing. In cases where they did encounter young men of military age, the soldiers lined them up, scrutinizing for distinct telltale features such as close-cropped hair, helmet marks, or shoulder blisters from carrying a rifle. Many men, who had never served in the military but bore callouses from hard manual labor, were captured based on the assumption that such marks indicated military experience. As noted by Goerge Fitch the head of Nanjing's YMCA “Rickshaw coolies, carpenters, and other laborers are frequently taken”. The Japanese employed additional, more cunning tactics to root out soldiers. During an inspection of a camp within the Safety Zone, they struggled to get the approximately 6,000 men and women to surrender. Before leaving, they resorted to one last trick. “Attention!” a voice commanded in flawless Chinese. Many young men, conditioned by months or years of military training, instinctively responded. Even though most realized their mistake almost immediately, it was too late; the Japanese herded them away. Given the scale of the slaughter, efforts were soon organized to facilitate the killing and disposal of as many individuals as possible in the shortest time. Rows of prisoners were mowed down by machine-gun fire, while those injured were finished off with single bullets or bayonets. Much of the mass murder occurred near the Yangtze River, where victims could be disposed of easily by being pushed into the water, hoping the current would carry them away.As the weeks progressed and the Japanese grew increasingly concerned about the possibility of former soldiers still at large, the dragnet tightened. Beginning in late December, Japanese authorities implemented a registration system for all residents of Nanjing. At Ginling College, this process lasted about a week and resulted in scenes of almost indescribable chaos, as the Japanese also decided to register residents from the surrounding areas on campus. First, the men were registered, followed by the women. Often, women attended the registration to help save their husbands and sons, who would otherwise have been taken as suspected former soldiers. Despite these efforts, a total of 28 men were ultimately seized during the registration process at Ginling College. Each individual who registered received a document from the authorities. However, it soon became clear that this paper provided little protection against the caprices of the Japanese military. That winter in Nanjing, everyone was a potential victim. While systematic mass killings primarily targeted young men of military age, every category of people faced death in the days and weeks following the Japanese conquest of Nanjing. Reports indicated that fifty police officers from the Safety Zone were executed for permitting Chinese soldiers to enter the area. The city's firefighters were taken away to meet an uncertain fate, and six street sweepers were killed inside their dwelling. Like an uncontrollable epidemic, the victors' bloodlust seemed to escalate continuously, seeking out new victims. When the Japanese ordered the Safety Zone committee to supply workers for the electricity plant in Xiaguan to restore its operations, they provided 54 individuals. Within days, 43 of them were dead. Although young men were especially targeted, the Japanese made no distinctions based on age or sex. American missionary John G. Magee documented numerous instances of indiscriminate killings, including the chilling account of two families nearly exterminated. Stabbings, shootings, and rapes marked the slaughter of three generations of innocents, including toddlers aged four and two; the older child was bayoneted, while the younger was struck in the head with a sword. The only survivors were a badly injured eight-year-old girl and her four-year-old sister, who spent the following fortnight beside their mother's decaying body. The violence was often accompanied by various forms of humiliation, as if to utterly break the spirit of the conquered people. One woman lost her parents and three children. When she purchased a coffin for her father, a Japanese soldier tore the lid off and discarded the old man's body in the street. Another soldier, in a drunken stupor, raped a Chinese woman and then vomited on her. In yet another incident, a soldier encountered a family of six huddled over a pot of thin rice soup; he stepped over them and urinated into their pot before continuing on his way, laughing heartlessly. The atrocities committed at Nanjing were not akin to something like the Holocaust. Within places like Auschwitz killings became industrialized and often took on an impersonal, unemotional character. The murders in Nanjing had an almost intimate quality, with each individual perpetrator bearing the blood of their victims on their hands, sometimes literally. In this sense, the Nanjing atrocities resemble the early Holocaust killings executed by German Einsatzgruppen in Eastern Europe, prior to the implementation of gas chambers. How many died during the Nanjing Massacre? Eyewitnesses at the time recognized that the Japanese behavior had few immediate precedents. Missionary John Magee compared the situation to the Turkish genocide of the Armenians during World War I, which was still fresh in memory. Despite this, no consensus emerged regarding the exact number of fatalities, a state of affairs that would persist for nearly eight decades. In his first comprehensive account of the atrocities following the conquest of the capital, New York Times correspondent Tillman Durdin reported that 33,000 Chinese soldiers lost their lives in Nanjing, including 20,000 who were executed. Foreign correspondent Frank Oliver claimed in a 1939 publication that 24,000 men, women, and children were put to death during the first month of the city's occupation. As time progressed, much larger figures began to circulate. After returning to Germany in 1938, John Rabe held a lecture where he cited European estimates that between 50,000 and 60,000 people had died. In February 1942, Chiang Kai-shek stated that 200,000 were slaughtered within one week. The Nanjing tribunal established by Chiang's government to try Japanese war criminals in 1946 and 1947 reported that more than 300,000 lives had been lost following the city's fall. The highest estimate recorded comes from a Chinese military expert, who put the death toll at 430,000. Currently, the figure most commonly accepted in official Chinese media is 300,000, a number also cited by various authors sympathetic to China's contemporary regime. The debate over the Nanjing death toll has been a complex and extensive discussion, likely to remain unresolved to everyone's satisfaction. As missionary and Nanjing University teacher Miner Searle Bates remarked when he testified before the International Military Tribunal for the Far East in July 1946, “The scope of this killing was so extensive that no one can provide a complete picture of it.” On December 16, American missionary Minnie Vautrin witnessed a truck passing by Ginling College, loaded with eight to ten girls. When they saw the Western woman, they cried out, "Jiu ming! Jiu ming!" which means “Help! Help!” Vautrin felt powerless, fully aware of the fate that awaited them. As early as Tuesday of that week, she had documented rumors of girls being raped. The following night, women were taken in large numbers from their homes. Another missionary, John Magee wrote to his wife “The most horrible thing now is the raping of the women, which has been going on in the most shameless way I have ever known”. A tentative list compiled by Lewis Smythe detailed instances of rape occurring soon after the Japanese Army entered Nanjing: four girls at noon on December 14; four more women that evening; three female refugees on December 15; and a young wife around the same time. The accounts revealed chilling individual horrors. A 15-year-old girl was taken to a barracks housing 200 to 300 Japanese soldiers and locked in a room, where she was raped multiple times daily. Victims ranged from as young as 11 to over 80. American correspondent Edgar Snow recalled “Discards were often bayoneted by drunken soldiers,. Frequently, mothers had to witness their babies being beheaded, only to then be raped themselves.” Y.M.C.A. head George Fitch reported the case of a woman whose five-month-old infant was deliberately smothered by a soldier to silence its cries while he raped her. Such acts were a gruesome form of humiliation, designed to demonstrate that the vanquished were powerless to protect their own families. Japanese soldier Takokoro Kozo recalled “Women suffered most. No matter how young or old, they all could not escape the fate of being raped. We sent out coal trucks to the city streets and villages to seize a lot of women. And then each of them was allocated to fifteen to twenty soldiers for sexual intercourse and abuse. After raping we would also kill them”. Women were frequently killed immediately after being raped, often through horrific mutilations, such as being penetrated with bayonets, long bamboo sticks, or other objects. For instance, one six-months-pregnant woman was stabbed sixteen times in the face and body, with one stab penetrating her abdomen and killing her unborn child. In another case, a young woman had a beer bottle forcibly inserted into her vagina after being raped, and was subsequently shot.  On December 19, 1937, the Reverend James M. McCallum wrote in his diary “I know not where to end. Never I have heard or read such brutality. Rape! Rape! Rape! We estimate at least 1,000 cases a night and many by day. In case of resistance or anything that seems like disapproval, there is a bayonet stab or a bullet... People are hysterical... Women are being carried off every morning, afternoon and evening. The whole Japanese army seems to be free to go and come as it pleases, and to do whatever it pleases”.  Rabe wrote in his diary dated December 17 “wo Japanese soldiers have climbed over the garden wall and are about to break into our house. When I appear they give the excuse that they saw two Chinese soldiers climb over the wall. When I show them my party badge, they return the same way. In one of the houses in the narrow street behind my garden wall, a woman was raped, and then wounded in the neck with a bayonet. I managed to get an ambulance so we can take her to Kulou Hospital... Last night up to 1,000 women and girls are said to have been raped, about 100 girls at Ginling College...alone. You hear nothing but rape. If husbands or brothers intervene, they're shot. What you hear and see on all sides is the brutality and bestiality of the Japanese soldiers”. In a documentary film about the Nanjing Massacre, In the Name of the Emperor, a former Japanese soldier named Shiro Azuma spoke candidly about the process of rape and murder in Nanjing. “At first we used some kinky words like Pikankan. Pi means "hip", kankan means "look". Pikankan means, "Let's see a woman open up her legs." Chinese women didn't wear under-pants. Instead, they wore trousers tied with a string. There was no belt. As we pulled the string, the buttocks were exposed. We "pikankan". We looked. After a while we would say something like, "It's my day to take a bath," and we took turns raping them. It would be all right if we only raped them. I shouldn't say all right. But we always stabbed and killed them. Because dead bodies don't talk”. Without anyone to defend them, the women of Nanjing resorted to desperate measures for their safety. The young and attractive cut their hair and smeared soot on their faces to diminish their allure. Others donned boys' clothes or the garments of elderly women. However, the Japanese were well aware of these tactics and were not easily deceived. As American correspondent Snow described, it was an orgy of unprecedented debauchery, involving not only the lower ranks of the Japanese military but also officers who turned their quarters into harems, bedding a new captive each night. Open-air sexual assaults were common. During the first ten days of occupation, groups of Japanese soldiers entered the Ginling campus ten to twenty times daily, brandishing fixed bayonets stained with fresh blood. So overwhelmed, Vautrin decided to prioritize saving lives over salvaging possessions, spending those early days frantically moving across campus to prevent marauding soldiers from taking away women. A particularly tense situation unfolded on the evening of December 17, when Vautrin and other staff members at Ginling College were called to the front of the campus to confront a group of Japanese soldiers. Earlier, Vautrin had received documentation from another officer affirming that the area was a legitimate refugee camp. The soldiers torn up the document in front of her. For hours, with armed Japanese soldiers encircling them, Vautrin and her colleagues were left standing or kneeling, uncertain of what awaited them. Gradually, it became clear that they had been lured to the front gate so that other soldiers could enter through a side entrance and abduct twelve women. As Vautrin recalled “Never shall I forget the scene. The dried leaves rattling, the moaning of the wind, the cries of women being led away.” The staff remained at the entrance until 11:00 pm, fearing that hiding soldiers might fire on them if they moved. This was the only time that Vautrin was unable to prevent rape, a failure that would haunt her for the rest of her life. Some Japanese soldiers, seeking young girls, ordered a middle-aged Chinese woman to assist them in finding targets. When she either could not or would not comply, they shot a rifle across her abdomen, narrowly missing and taking away “three handbreadths of flesh.” When the Japanese Army entered Nanjing, little damage had been inflicted on the buildings, as noted by U.S. missionary James McCallum at the end of December. On the first day of their occupation, Japanese soldiers immediately dispersed into Nanjing in small groups, breaking shop windows and looting the goods within. They carried away their spoils in crates and stolen rickshaws. Initially, the looting was partly a makeshift response to the poor logistics of the Japanese Army. Combat soldiers had arrived well ahead of their supply lines and faced severe food shortages until the roads reopened and the Yangtze River became navigable.  Every building in Nanjing was looted and turned upside down. Everything not nailed down was stolen: doors and window frames were removed, safes opened with rifle shots or grenades. Japanese soldiers often pillaged property while the owners were present, threatening them with bayonets. Abandoned cars littered the streets, typically overturned and stripped of useful items, including batteries. Like Russian soldiers in Berlin seven and a half years later, the rank-and-file soldiers displayed a particular interest in watches. As the scale of plunder grew, transportation became scarce. By the end of December, looting was being conducted using trucks. When vehicles were unavailable, Japanese soldiers resorted to wheelbarrows and even children's prams. Mules, donkeys, and people were also commandeered. Just as during their advance from Shanghai to Nanjing, the Chinese were forced to assist in looting their own homes. A common sight was a Japanese soldier leading a group of Chinese down the street, laden with stolen goods. While Chinese soldiers had also engaged in some looting during their evacuation of Nanjing, it was nothing compared to the scale of the Japanese victors' plunder. The Chinese forces had deliberately avoided breaking into foreign buildings, a distinction that the Japanese disregarded. The American, British, and German embassies, along with the ambassadors' residences, were ransacked, stripped of everything from bedding and money to watches, rugs, and artwork. The American School was looted, and its wall breached to remove the piano. As the Japanese stripped the city, they also began to burn it. While the winter sky could have been sparkling, it was instead filled with smoke from thousands of fires across the city. Some fires resulted from carelessness, such as when soldiers cooked meat from a stolen cow over a bonfire, accidentally igniting an ancient building. Others were acts of mindless vandalism. The Nanking Music Shop saw all its instruments and sheets piled in the street and set ablaze. The extent of the massacre can, to some degree, be linked to a breakdown in discipline among Japanese soldiers. Released from weeks or months of hardship on the battlefield, many soldiers experienced an intoxicating sense of freedom, resembling misbehaving boys. The deterioration of order among Japanese soldiers astonished those familiar with the stories of the stringent discipline within Japan's armed forces. Observers commented on soldiers laughing at proclamations from their own officers or tearing up orders and tossing them to the ground. Some foreign witnesses speculated that this lack of discipline was exacerbated by the absence of visible individual numbers on soldiers, making it challenging to identify wrongdoers. The issue also stemmed from the quality of the Japanese officer corps and their ability to manage a large army of young men, many of whom were experiencing freedom from societal constraints for the first time. Not all officers rose to the occasion; Vautrin witnessed an officer almost fail to prevent a soldier from raping a girl. Even worse, some officers transitioned from passive bystanders, guilty by inaction, to active participants in prolonged rape sessions. While a few attempted to instill discipline among their troops, their efforts often fell short. A Japanese colonel, for instance, slapped a soldier attempting to rape a Chinese woman. Another general was seen striking a private who had bayoneted a Chinese man and threatened two Germans, raising questions about how much of this discipline was merely performative for the benefit of foreign observers. Ultimately, disciplinary measures had little impact. As Rabe noted in his diary dated December 18th “The soldiers have almost no regard for their officers”. The absence of effective higher leadership during this critical period likely exacerbated the problem. General Matsui had been suffering from malaria since November 3, which left him largely incapacitated from December 5 to 15. A subordinate later testified that he had been informed of "incidents of stealing, killing, assault, and rape and had become quite enraged.” Although Matsui may have been displeased by the unruly behavior of his soldiers, it is conceivable that his inaction led to even greater levels of atrocity than might have occurred otherwise. He insisted on holding a victory parade on December 17, immediately after recovering from his illness, which likely triggered a security frenzy among Japanese officers concerned about the safety of Prince Asaka, uncle to Emperor Hirohito. This reaction likely prompted a surge in searches for, and executions of, suspected former Chinese soldiers. The Japanese high command in Tokyo was also aware of the unraveling discipline. On January 4, 1938, Army Headquarters sent Matsui an unusually direct message ordering him to restore control among his troops: Our old friend Ishiwara Kanji bitterly criticized the situation and placed the blame on Matsui “We earnestly request enhancement of military discipline and public morals. The morale of the Japanese had never been at a lower level.” A detachment of military police eventually arrived in Nanjing, leading to some improvements, though their presence was mixed. Some officers stationed outside the Safety Zone ignored atrocities occurring before them and, in some cases, participated directly. At Ginling College, the experience with military police was decidedly uneven. The first group of about 25 men tasked with guarding the college ended up committing rape themselves.  Despite frequent visits from Japanese soldiers in search of loot and victims to assault, the Safety Zone was perceived as successful. Many believed that both the zone and the work of its managing committee were responsible for saving countless lives. W. Plumer Mills, vice chairman of the committee, noted that the zone “did give some protection during the fighting…but the chief usefulness of the Zone has been the measure of protection it has afforded to the people since the occupation.” Shortly after the Japanese conquest, the population of the Safety Zone swelled to a quarter million people. Around 70,000 of these were organized into 25 pre-arranged camps, while the majority sought accommodation wherever possible. Makeshift “mat-shed villages” sprang up in vacant areas throughout the zone. Nanjing quickly became informally divided into two distinct cities. Outside the Safety Zone, the atmosphere was ghostly, with a population dwindling to around 10,000, while within the zone, bustling activity thrived. Shanghai Road, which ran through the center of the zone and had once been a wide boulevard, transformed into a hub of barter and trade, resembling a festive market during Chinese New Year, overflowing with makeshift stalls, tea shops, and restaurants, making it nearly impossible to traverse by vehicle. The Japanese held a degree of respect for Westerners, although this sentiment was not universal and did not always offer protection. Many foreigners tried to safeguard their homes by displaying their national flags outside, but they often found that Japanese soldiers would break in regardless. To protect Ginling College, American flags were displayed at eight locations around the compound, and a large 30-foot American flag was spread out in the center. However, this proved to be “of absolutely no use” in preventing Japanese soldiers from entering the area. Despite this, there was some limited outright hostility towards Americans. Stronger negative sentiments were directed towards the Russians and the British, who were viewed as representatives of nations with competing interests against the Japanese Empire. The Japanese displayed particular reverence for one nationality, the Germans. Rabe would shout “Deutsch” or “Hitler” to command respect from unruly Japanese soldiers or show them his swastika armband, indicating his allegiance to the Nazi Party. Germany was seen as a rising power and rapidly becoming one of Japan's closest allies, a fellow outcast in global politics. However, as time passed, the limits of this respect became evident; individual soldiers began searching for women within the German embassy compound, and eventually, nearly all German buildings were broken into. Despite all the challenges, there was no doubting that foreigners offered a form of protection unavailable elsewhere. Within days of the Japanese conquest, women and children began appearing in large numbers outside Rabe's home, kneeling and knocking their heads on the ground as they begged to be let into his already overcrowded garden.  At 1:00 pm on January 1, the Chinese were proclaimed rulers of their own city, or at least this is what Japanese propaganda sought to convey. On the first day of the new year, a puppet government was established in a ceremony held just north of the Safety Zone. A new five-bar flag, the one associated with the early Chinese republic was raised, signaling a patriotic spirit in a gesture that felt unconvincing. As the new leaders took office, vowing to resurrect their city, buildings burned all around them. The ceremony marked the culmination of two weeks of preparatory work. As early as December 15, General Matsui met with a local Chinese leader, referred to in the Japanese commander's diary only as Chen, who had been selected to assist in forming this new puppet government. Chen had been present in the northern port city of Tianjin two years earlier when Matsui helped establish the Chinese chapter of the Greater Asia Association. He subscribed to Matsui's concepts of “Asia for Asians,” but cautioned that Chinese fears of the Japanese would complicate the governance of the conquered territories.   The new government aligned with the Japanese army to implement a system of indoctrination centered on conservatism, primarily targeting the youth, who were perceived as most likely to resist. The indoctrination included messages like, “You must follow the old custom in marriage, letting your parents make arrangements for you. You must not go to theaters or study English, etc. China and Japan must become one, and then the nation will be strong.” Few were deceived by these attempts to win hearts and minds. The government-sanctioned newspaper, the Xinshengbao, or New Life Journal, was immediately dismissed as a crude vehicle for propaganda. Additionally, the government made minimal progress in more urgent tasks, such as restoring peacetime conditions and revitalizing Nanjing's economy, a challenge made formidable by Japanese brutality. Given the fate of the first group of volunteers at the electricity plant after the conquest, no one could be found to fill the needed 40 to 45 worker slots. The same was true for firefighters. The predictable outcomes followed. Water and limited power were restored to parts of the city by January 2, but within two days, the city was plunged back into darkness. By January 13, the waterworks were still non-operational, and the power supply remained intermittent while fires continued to blaze well into January. The government was not taken seriously, struggling even with the Japanese. It quickly built a reputation for being venal and corrupt. One of its names was the Nanjing Autonomous Government, which a clever member of the foreign community humorously rebranded as the “Automatic Government,” reflecting its actual role as a puppet regime devoid of autonomy.  While Nanjing endured its own nightmarish reality, the city's inhabitants had little understanding of the events transpiring beyond its walls. The first radio news that reached foreign residents came on January 7, reporting Japanese air raids on Wuhan. There were also unconfirmed rumors suggesting that Hangzhou was experiencing similar horrors to those in Nanjing, but details were scarce. It was perhaps expected that reports from afar would be limited in wartime, yet information about situations closer to Nanjing was similarly scarce, and the horrific truth gradually dawned on the city's populace. A Westerner who managed to escape east from Nanjing in early January reported that all villages within a 20-mile radius had been burned to the ground. Outside the city, Japanese soldiers were randomly shooting civilians, including children. A German who drove an hour from Nanjing encountered no living souls. After the conquest, Chinese who managed to leave Nanjing reported that every pond between the city and Juyong was filled with the decaying corpses of people and animals. Many of the atrocities committed during this time appeared to stem from boredom and a search for cheap thrills. American missionary Magee witnessed a young farmer who had sustained severe burns on his upper body. After the soldiers demanded money from him and he failed to comply, they doused him in kerosene and set him ablaze. Similarly, a young boy suffered horrific burns after he failed to lead a group of soldiers to his “mama.” People in the rural areas surrounding Nanjing faced danger from numerous directions. Not only were they potential targets for marauding Japanese soldiers, but they were also at risk from bands of Chinese outlaws, who preyed on the large influx of refugees on the roads and the few souls who remained at home despite the fierce conflict raging nearby. Magee encountered a 49-year-old woman whose home was invaded by bandits looking for money. “When she and her husband said they had none they battered her head and breast with a stool and burned her feet until she revealed their savings of between four and five dollars.” In the absence of a formal government, informal authority was often wielded by secret societies. For instance, the “Big Sword Society” reportedly offered protection not only against Japanese soldiers and local bandits but also against small groups of Chinese troops seeking to escape back to their lines and resorting to theft for survival. What a blast from the past eh?   Rumors began to circulate in early January 1938 that the Chinese Army was preparing to retake Nanjing and that Chiang Kai-shek's soldiers had already been spotted inside the city walls. Many of the small makeshift Japanese flags that had appeared outside private homes in mid-December suddenly vanished, and some Chinese residents who had been wearing Japanese armbands hastily removed them. There was even talk of launching an attack on the Japanese embassy. Word spread that the Japanese were becoming frightened and were searching for Chinese clothing to disguise themselves as civilians in the event of a retreat. In reality, none of this was true. The Chinese Army was still reorganizing after the costly campaign that had forced it from Shanghai to Nanjing and then further into the interior. However, this did not imply that the Japanese had achieved complete control over the city. After six weeks of terror, Nanjing began to reassert itself. Japanese soldiers faced fatalities and injuries in skirmishes with members of secret organizations like the “Yellow Spears” and the “Big Sword Society.”  After the New Year, the population within the Safety Zone began to dwindle. A week into 1938, the number of refugees at Ginling College, which had peaked at more than 10,000, fell to around 5,000. Less than a month after the conquest, many former residents started returning to their homes during the day and then coming back to the college at night. Still, the city was far from safe, and even for those whose homes were located within the Safety Zone, Vautrin believed it was unwise to stray too far from her refugee camp. One month after Japanese forces had surged through its gates, Nanjing was a thoroughly devastated city, with fires still being set every day and night. By mid-January, estimates suggested that more than half the city had been burned down, with the main shopping district completely gone, as well as the entertainment area surrounding the Confucius Temple. Nevertheless, slowly but surely, the shell-shocked city began to pull itself together and started the long process of renewal. Vautrin considered opening an industrial school offering four-month courses for women to help compensate for the loss of labor resulting from the indiscriminate killing of men. Chinese New Year fell on January 31, 1938. Celebrated throughout Asia, it was also recognized by the Japanese. It was a “dismal, muddy” day, and as many feared, soldiers who appeared “too happy” from excessive drinking attempted to enter the Safety Zone in search of women but were stopped. The sound of thousands of firecrackers filled the air, fulfilling the age-old purpose of scaring away evil spirits. Refugees in Rabe's compound presented him with a large red silk banner adorned with a gold Chinese inscription. His Chinese friends translated the message for him “You are the living Buddha For a hundred thousand people”. I would like to take this time to remind you all that this podcast is only made possible through the efforts of Kings and Generals over at Youtube. Please go subscribe to Kings and Generals over at Youtube and to continue helping us produce this content please check out www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals. If you are still hungry after that, give my personal channel a look over at The Pacific War Channel at Youtube, it would mean a lot to me. In December 1937, the battle for Nanjing left its residents in terror as the Japanese army advanced. Following the invasion, a horrific massacre began, with thousands targeted in brutal killings, torture, and humiliation. Civilians and soldiers alike were indiscriminately slain, and the Japanese military showed no mercy. To this day the Nanjing Massacre stands as a testament to the unbelievable evil man holds within him.