Heathen

Hi heathens! We're going on tour! And we can't think of a better reason to break our nearly 2-year silence. In this episode, get the inside scoop on TWO new albums full of fantastic music, and then come hear it in person. We can't wait to see you, west coast. CryInTheWest.com SAT 3/18 — SAN DIEGO, CA • University Christian Church SUN 3/19 — LOS ANGELES, CA • Silverlake Lounge MON 3/20 — MORRO BAY, CA • The Siren TUE 3/21 — SAN JOSE, CA • Tabard Theatre THU 3/23 — EUGENE, OR • Old Nick's Pub FRI 3/24 — BEND, OR • Silver Moon Brewery SAT 3/25 — PORTLAND, OR • Kelly's Olympian SUN 3/26 — SEATTLE, WA • Central Saloon

All four heathens are in the house and we're talking about gender, how to destroy it, and the art of drag. Everyone grows up under the massive pressures of the binary gender, and religious folks usually have a few extra layers weighing us down. Drag is one way to expand, fuck with, and blur the boundaries of the binary and help us find a little big of wiggle room—freedom, even—in the clothes that constrain us. It's also having a cultural moment like never before, and there are parts of it that are problematic AF. We go there, too. If you love Heathen, consider supporting us with a small monthly gift on Patreon. You'll find all kinds of exclusive goodies, including a portion of this conversation you can only hear on Patreon.

Welcome to the show a couple of our favorite fellow podcast hosts, Pelayo Alvarez and Melissa Weisz. These incredible spacemakers and good friends are building spirituality from scratch after coming out of a Hasidic Jewish upbringing in Brooklyn (Melissa) and a Catholic upbringing in Northern Spain. Now, they explore what it means to be queer and spiritual on their fantastic show, The Forbidden Apple Podcast. Support Heathen on Patreon HeathenPodcast.com

We doubt we’re the first to introduce you to the phenom behind the very popular, very powerful platform God Is Grey, but if this does happen to be your first time encountering Brenda Marie Davies, we’re excited for you. Brenda is, in her own words, a sex-positive, LGBT+ affirming, science-believing, intellectual Christian. She’s also an author and YouTube personality and what we like to call a shame destroyer. Brenda has taken a strong stand on holding the church accountable when it comes to purity culture, inclusion, and more. Her new book, On Her Knees: Memoir of a Prayerful Jezebel, chronicles a decade of her spiritual journey in LA through marriage, divorce, unlikely friendship, and sexual exploration. It’s an honor to have Brenda on Heathen. Want to watch instead of listen? This conversation is on YouTube. Pre-Order On Her Knees God Is Grey on YouTube @GodIsGrey on Instagram and TikTok

We've been massive fans of Suandria Hall since we first started following her on Instagram @mychoicemypowercounseling. Based in Denver, CO, Suandria is a life transitions and religious trauma coach—dolls, meet our absolute favorite certified Heathen counselor! Anissa and Karyn sat down with Suandria to talk about deconstructing as cis het females, what it looked like to untangle that mess of purity rings on our fingers, finding a new sexual ethic, marriage, divorce, and raising daughters. Get your coffee, tea, or favorite red and come vent, hope, and heal with us. Support Heathen on Patreon.

Westerlight is an Indie-Americana duo made up of Oklahoma singer-songwriters Rachel and Jonny Hupp. We talk with them about their shift from being worship leaders, how they quit church on accident, and what it’s been like to make music during a pandemic. You’ll love this deconstruction conversation with Westerlight (and your two newest co-hosts, Anissa & Ben!). Westerlight’s songs capture the modern ache of existence by directing an unflinching eye towards themes of hard-won love, frustrated faith, and unlikely hope in the midst of it all. In spite of their penchant for contemplative themes, Westerlight brings an electric charge to their folk stylings. After years of writing songs together, the husband and wife pair have crafted a sound that is as fresh as it is familiar and as graceful as it is gritty. Listen to Westerlight’s album Sunday Best on Spotify. Watch their performance of “Bad Influence” here (and subscribe for more awesome YouTube content). westerlightmusic.com Support Heathen on Patreon.

Erin Burnett is from the "Bible Belt of Europe," otherwise known as Northern Ireland. Now in Scotland, she is an author of children's fiction and is currently pursuing a postgraduate degree in theology. erinburnettauthor.co.uk Check out the Heathen Haberdashery for all your heretical merch needs! Support Heathen on Patreon.

Welcome to the first episode of our new series we're wink-nudge calling Raising Hell!* Anissa and Karyn are taking on the complicated work of parenting through and beyond religious deconstruction. In Raising Hell episodes, we'll connect with experts, good books, and each other about what's working (and what isn't) for raising our little ones outside of fundamentalism, the Ten Commandments, and Sunday School. This first episode is a grab-your-coffee, pull up a chair, and vent/celebrate/troubleshoot-with-your-besties chat. It's long, and winding, and VERY us. Because this parenting in 2021 gig is MUCH. At least we're all in it together. *our kids are great, we promise. The best ones. Legit fantastic. Learn more about Re:Hope Listen to "Quarantine Hymn" Support Heathen on Patreon

You've probably seen her Instagram or TikTok accounts. Meet Blair, the internet phenom who is shaming purity culture and helping us all have the sex life we want. She's using social media to skillfully expose the damage purity culture does, dismantling it one deluded, destructive lie at a time. Follow Talk Purity to Me on Instagram and TikTok. Here's that specific (hilarious) TikTok video we mentioned. Support Heathen on Patreon. To join the private Facebook group Heathen Huddle, send us an email at askheathen@gmail.com.

Welcome back, heathens! There are four of us now. Meet your two new hosts, Anissa Nishira and Ben Grace, as they join Karyn and Flamy (formerly Matthew!) for a rousing round of catch up, sneak peek, and reflections on where we are a few years into this journey of deconstruction. Support Heathen: Patreon.com/HeathenPodcast Instagram • Facebook • Twitter • YouTube

Look, here's the thing: maybe Jesus was an alien. Lots of folks say he was God incarnate and the savior of the world. But maybe he was an alien. It's worth a conversation, and if Heathen isn't the place for that conversation, we don't know what is. Tess Meissner, hypnotherapist and Heathen fan favorite guest from season 2, is back in this long-lost episode recorded in July of 2019, but recently rediscovered buried in a folder under the wrong title. And we're so glad we found it, because it's a hilarious, sincere, beautiful discussion about possibilities. It's hopeful, it's human, and it's our absolute delight to bring Tess back to the Heathen conversation again, because we can't get enough of her. Speaking of, if you can't get enough of her either, you're in luck, because along with this conversation, we also recorded a fantastic hypnotherapy session where Tess takes us (and you, the listener!) on a past life regression. It's available exclusively to our Patreon supporters, and we'd love to have you as a Heathen helper, keeping this podcast going into 2021. Join us for as little as $3/month and get access to our past life regression and conversation with Tess and more exclusive goodies. Find Tess Meissner at infinitetruthhealing.com and on Instagram at @infinitetruthhealing.

Three members of the band The Many—Leslie Michele, Darren Calhoun, and Lenora Rand—are here with a declaration: love is greater than fear. Drawing on indie pop and gospel influences, The Many is a liturgically-grounded new kind of worship band, an intentionally diverse collective making music for people to sing together to bring more hope, love and beauty into the world. The songs and experiences they create give voice to faith and doubt, laments and longings, inspire resistance to hatred and exclusion, and always remind us "we are on this earth to love.” themanyarehere.com @themanyarehere

For those of us who grew up in some form of purity culture, the landscape of shame and its scars is deeply familiar terrain. Author, Licensed Mental Health Counselor Associate, and host of the incomparable Queerology podcast Matthias Roberts’ commitment to the long work of learning to trust our bodies, embrace our sexuality, and live fully into our most passionate possibilities is exactly the sort of prophetic heresy we are ALL about. https://matthiasroberts.com/ Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms Matthias on Instagram and Twitter

Azure Antoinette talks poetry, church, and Motown. We're thrilled to share this conversation about the road to owning your own spirituality. azureantoinette.com @hello_azureantoinette We welcome your support for Heathen at patreon.com/heathenpodcast. Thank you!

We're quarantined with Colby Martin, AND he has a brand new book out, so—perfect time to record a podcast, right? Be sure to pick up your copy of "The Shift: Surviving and Thriving After Moving from Conservative to Progressive Christianity" today, and watch the incredible livestream book release (which features yours truly) here! https://www.colbymartinonline.com/ @colbymartin Colby on Facebook

David Wimbish is part of The Collection, a North Carolina band we have fallen in love with. We're betting you will, too. Enjoy this discussion about apostasy, divorce, Sufism, music, and more. @collectionband Listen to The Collection on Spotify

Welcome back, heathens! It’s the start of season 4, it’s Valentine’s Day, and Derek Webb is back to talk love, relationships, breakups, and so much more. derekwebb.com Support Derek

Merry Christmas and happy holidays, heathens! We're back with our final episode of 2019 and it's just family: Karyn and Matthew sit down to celebrate 50 episodes of Heathen and talk about why we feel old... and why we feel that's a good thing. Categories are: elderhood and mentoring, the freedom found in failure, and why it's better to experience spirituality than explain it. Check out Belonging by Toko-pa Turner.

Author, speaker, and generally incomparable human Stephanie Tait is here to make the case for suffering and challenge false teachers who oppress, ignore, or avoid the vital theology each one of us brings to the table. Her new book "The View From Rock Bottom" is available now. StephanieTaitWrites.com Instagram • Twitter

He was always queer, even when he was hosting a highly-rated Christian TV show for the TBN network. Azariah Southworth met up with us in a library in Oceanside, CA, to talk about growing up Pentecostal, working in the Christian entertainment business, and the hard-won freedom he now embraces as a queer, Jesus-loving activist who is here to expose and dethrone the two-faced petty bitches who abuse their power in evangelical culture.

Nashville singer/songwriter Dustin Ransom is stepping it up. He's a talented multi-instrumentalist who has played with and written for dozens of musicians, from Derek Webb to Jars of Clay to Chely Wright, but with the release of his new album Frontiers, the spotlight is on him. Which is fine, because he has plenty to share, both through his music and in this rollicking, powerful conversation about his path toward wholeness.

A Heathen all-star returns for a second conversation about sex, bodies, menstruation, and all the spiritual underpinnings to our biology. Bird Ward creates space for the frank, honest, safe conversation around sex that is all but nonexistent in conservative Christian circles. Let’s head back to sex ed, heathens.

Don’t confuse him with Jacob from the Bible. Jake Wesley Rogers is a Nashville-based musician, songwriter, and performer whose music has been making us weep/fist-pump/belt out loud lately, and we’re so excited he agreed to have a conversation about spirituality with us. He just released a new EP called Spiritual (and we highly recommend you check out “Jacob from the Bible” right now!), and he’s doing incredible work of queering religious iconography, translating his spiritual experience to soul-shaking songs, and reminding us that intuition is divine.

"The story you and I experience is echoed down to the cellular level." Elizabeth Jeffries, PhD, is a molecular biologist and science writer whose new book, Through the Kaleidoscope: How Exploring Cell Biology Transforms My Relationship with God, arrives July 14, 2019.

Amber Cantorna spent her childhood, among other things, as a voice actor on the popular evangelical children's radio program "Adventures in Odyssey." Her own adventures, though, took her on a path out of evangelicalism as she came out, got married, and began working as an author and activist to help other queer folks from conservative religious communities live unashamed lives.

Ben Grace doesn't think the world has to get worse before it gets better. Here, this singer-songwriter transplant from Australia shares his story, from growing up in a cult to eating fried chicken naked on a front porch in Texas.

Mathew Mitchell is here to free you from the plagues of basic-ass struggle. It's a new season of Heathen and we're diving in headfirst with some talk about meditation and more. Includes some ACTUAL meditative practice you can do with us—wow!

Hiatus is officially over, Heathens. We're back in action and can't wait to bring you a new season of godless spirituality. We wanted to pop into your feeds to do a quick catch up before we release the first conversation of Season 3 in just a few days. Here's to the Heathens! ♥

Hi, heathens! Even though we're in-between seasons right now, we wanted to send you some quick love at Thanksgiving. We know that with Thanksgiving often comes family, and with family—when you're a heathen—often comes a lot of discomfort, awkwardness, and downright difficult situations. So this is just a "we love you" voicemail to remind you that you are so, so not alone. When Uncle Pat puts on his MAGA hat, pop in your earbuds and spend a few minutes with us on a park bench. Here's to the heathens.

Season 2 finale. We can't believe it's been a year since Heathen started. In today's closer to season 2, we're reflecting on how we've changed and the things we learned along the way. There will be beauty, and there will be pain. Knowing and accepting this is part of our journey, and makes it possible to navigate through impossible circumstances. Thanks for traveling with us, heathens. We have big plans for season 3 and beyond, and we'll be dropping a few hints and surprises for our Patreon supporters until we hit the air again next year. Here's to the heathens.

Megan Posner grew up in a Jew-"ish" household. She shared with us stories of leading the congregation at her own bat mitzvah, birthright trips to the Holy Land, and experiences with depression and learning to care for her own mental health.

It's time to slide down another slippery slope here at Heathen. Meet Tess Meissner, certified clinical hypnotherapist and shamanic practitioner. Settle in for an enlightening conversation about how Tess helps people heal through ancient shamanic practices, breaking trances, and reconnecting with our own bodies and souls. In this super-sized episode, Tess takes us—and you!—on a shamanic drum journey to retrieve, or meet, our power animal. We've never encountered anything quite like this trance practice that put each of us in touch with an animal we didn't expect to meet in "the lower world." You will be able to experience undergo this power animal retrieval journey yourself as you listen to today's episode. Slide down the slope with us... we're discovering some fantastic places.

Sexy selfies and provocative pictures: not something our conservative religious upbringings looked too kindly upon. But there is some magic we've missed out on in being closed-off to sensual self-admiration, as Karyn discovered when she decided to book a boudoir photography session with today's guest, Debra Alison. Together, they rip through more prudish notions and specifically call out everything that can make a little racy photo session so affirming, empowering, and maybe even a little bit... sacred.

Say hi to the heathenest pastors you'll find: ours. Kate Christensen-Martin and Colby Martin are co-founders of Sojourn Grace Collective, a podcast called The Kate and Colby Show, and four fantastic boys, among other things. They are also some of our dearest friends—dearer still after this powerful, poignant, playful conversation about their chasm-wide differences, starting a church when their marriage was on the rocks, and the incredible good that has come from the friction that they have learned to value over the years. This is part of the Heathen/Kate and Colby Show crossover EVENT, so be sure you check out Karyn & Matthew's interview on The Kate & Colby Show this week, too!

By the time she was 25, Jennifer Knapp had gone about as high as you could go in the 1990s Christian music industry. Three records and nearly a million album sales in, she walked away. When she came back seven years later, she was ready to tell more of her story. We're so excited to bring you this conversation with Jennifer Knapp.

This week, meet Amy Canton and Clark Williams, my (Matthew's) sister and brother. I couldn't be prouder of them, or more excited for you to hear about our shared history and their own personal journeys out of religious trauma. The conversation took some very unexpected turns: parts of our own stories were rewritten in real time as we shared and learned new information about major moments in each other's lives that we didn't know until they were said out loud on this recording. It was simply a gift, and there is so much here to give anyone with religious pain and trauma hope and a guidepost on the path toward healing.

In our ongoing commitment to explore *all* the territory religious fundamentalism won't, it's time for a new Sexisode! Welcome James Johansen, a sex therapist with a special interest in polyamory and non-monogamy. This conversation is about understanding eroticism vs. intimacy, agency over our own bodies, and the ethical way to have sex, no matter whether you choose monogamy or something more open. Ready to stretch a little, heathens? Let's get sexy.

Sometimes you can't find the thing you need, so you have to make it yourself. After years of deconstruction and reshaping of her faith, Crystal Cheatham found herself wanting a place to find inclusive, queer-affirming, non-gendered writings—and Bibles—that she could use in her own spiritual practice. But the resources out there weren't willing hear her pitch. So, she became a resource herself. Founder of OurBibleApp and host of her own podcast called Lord Have Mercy—which deals with God, sex, and the Bible—Crystal is someone you need to know about, and we're happy to make the introduction.

Carly Gelsinger is the author of the upcoming memoir "Once You Go In," a powerful story of shipwrecked faith. We got the early scoop and are excited to bring you this conversation with a former Pentecostal who is finding a new way.

"Success is making a good thing in a vile time." This thought from Myles E. Johnson was part of the inspiration for this week's episode, which is a collection of good things. Words we love, music and poetry to give perspective, comedy specials on Netflix that help us bear the unbearable. After what's been one of the harder weeks in a long season of hard weeks here in America, we invite you to join us for an hour of meditation on good things. It helped us; we hope it will you, too.

Alisha Jade just wants to know why she can't take the best parts from all religions and make her own? She describes herself as a seeker, and her curiosity has taken her all over the spiritual map. Today we're talking sex, yoga, post-election blues, and privilege with Alisha Jade.

Undoubtedly, sex is one of the most fraught aspects of life for folks coming out of oppressive, conservative, restrictive religion. That's why we're doing Sexisodes: episodes about sex that are here to untangle, unburden, and enlighten us about our bodies, our relationships, and more. In today's (very NSFW) conversation, we welcome fellow heathen Bird Ward who wants everyone to masturbate more.

Hi, heathens. It's been a week. We want you to know there is love for you. ♥ If you are well, take care of the family and friends you have. If you are numb or in pain, if you are struggling, if it feels too heavy: know that these podcasting nerds over here at Heathen headquarters love you. If you're able to ask for help—and there is NEVER any shame in asking for help—here are many ways you can do that: Email us: askheathen@gmail.com Reach us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram: @heathenpodcast National Suicide Prevention Hotline: 1-800-273-8255 Crisis Text Line: text 'HOME' to 741741 Trevor Project, for LGBTQ+ folks: 1-866-488-7386 Or text 'TREVOR' to 1-202-304-1200 (M-F, 3-10pm EST) We love you. ♥

Anissa Nishira Cornelius joins co-host Karyn Thurston for a conversation from the She Is Called conference in Denver. Join these theatre geeks on a journey from Anissa's Baptist upbringing in San Diego to her role as a birth worker in Oklahoma. Anissa shares her experience growing up black in predominately white evangelical circles and challenges us to consider: what if people let the 14-year old black girl who heard the voice of God lead?

(This conversation centers on sexual assault.) It's our first literally-on-the-road episode. We drove to Hollywood on a whim to be in the audience for the taping of comic/writer/actor/podcast host extraordinaire Cameron Esposito's new special called "Rape Jokes." It was a provocative, hilarious, beautiful evening that inspired a conversation we recorded in the car driving back to San Diego. Let's talk about the damage we've had to undo in our understanding of sexual assault after growing up in conservative evangelicalism.

Wendy Holland is a minister in the Disciples of Christ tradition and came to Heathen to share why she's still ministering after a lifetime of frustration over the direction of the church in America. Her journey has led her to belief in an inclusive gospel, and she's wrestled with—and answered for herself—why faith and Christian spiritual practice still matter if there's not a hell we need saving from. In what is probably the most wide-ranging Heathen conversation yet, Wendy shares her stories of marriage and divorce, adoption, sexual identity, working toward ordination as a woman, and a passion to rebrand the modern evangelical church as a place for everyone.

First things first: a trigger warning. We recognize the seriousness of alcohol and its effects in so many of our lives. Today's discussion centers around the cultural stigmas and attitudes towards alcohol in the evangelical systems we were brought up in and includes conversation and stories about our changing behavior and beliefs when it comes to drinking over the years. You may have good reason to skip this episode that focuses primarily on casual drinking, especially if you have struggles with alcoholism or are in recovery. Our hope today is to explore the fears and misgivings about alcohol that were especially reinforced by Christian culture. Our guest today is Kristen Cairns, a bartender, friend of the podcast, and lovely person with her own story of apostasy after being raised by two pastors. Pour yourself a glass of something that's appropriate for you, and let's slide down another slippery slope: alcohol.

Eva Cruz Pena is exploring the boundaries of irreverence. In Heathen’s first all-woman episode, we’re following the winding path of her journey from Puerto Rico, where she grew up leading worship and being reminded her voice and questions were a bit “too much” for a good Christian girl, to her tenure as the only woman of color in a sea of bearded seminary students in Portland, OR, her time as a military chaplain, and the awakening of her inner goddess that shifted everything about the way she interprets the world. Motherhood, bodies, bras, blood, and un-becoming - today we’re running the gamut of what it means to be a woman awake in the world, with Eva as our wise, passionate guide.

Today, we're reading through some stories and feedback sent to us by listeners to Heathen, and damn—y'all are amazing. Thank you for sharing your stories, we love hearing them. We started off defining what we mean by "bad Christianity." It's a phrase we use around here that strikes some as aggressive, and to others might just be shorthand for describing the specific types of toxic religion we've crawled out from under. But folks have asked, and it's fair that we should give an explanation. From there, the listener emails we read are beautiful, insightful, a little heartbreaking, and fiery catalysts for some great conversation about learning to trust ourselves. Oh, and Russian Tea? It's delicious.

Today: a real treat. We're delighted to welcome Derek Webb to Heathen. Derek has been a professional musical artist for nearly 25 years, as a founding member of the folk band Caedmon's Call and then as a solo artist. He's held a unique place in the Christian music world, often speaking to the injustices he saw in the church while also caring deeply for its well-being. The past few years, though, have seen a significant shift—one that we're very familiar with here at Heathen. Listen in as Derek shares about his journey into unbelief and how he came to record an entire album about apostasy—his latest, called Fingers Crossed. He also hosts an excellent podcast about the fallout of spiritual deconstruction called The Airing of Grief. Enjoy this deep dive with Derek Webb.

Slippery Slopes is a new series we are bringing to Heathen! Remember all the things from your religious upbringing that were taboo? PG-13 or R-rated films, dancing, anything "spiritual" that wasn't directly tied to Jesus? And of course, as we grew, so did the list: anything sexual, all drugs, how much of your body is displayed, types of events you can and can't go to, who you befriend. Making rules and policing adherents is serious Christian work. So many of us who are taking steps away from religion that restricts, oppresses, and shames are finding ourselves woefully unprepared and awkward when we try to engage in real-world stuff that, for a lot of people, is commonplace. For us, though, there are residual feelings of danger, fear, guilt, or worse when it comes to experiencing more of what life has to offer. If you're interested in pushing boundaries, exploring formerly taboo topics, and—hopefully—normalizing some stuff that may not be inherently bad, but that you are accustomed to avoiding because God/Pastor/Parent said no, Slippery Slopes is here for you. We're kicking it off with a Tarot reading by season 1 Heathen guest Micah Turner. Come with us as we learn a little bit about—and then experience—this centuries-old practice of divination. The cards have some fascinating things to share...