The Dad Bod

I was introduced to Tom by Thomas from Season 1. I dubbed Thomas, "Chosen Dad," because one of the key things that he shared with me was the concept of chosen family, the people who aren't biologically family to you but become your family through the power and constancy of their presence in your life. Tom and Thomas became chosen family to one another through Young Life, a Christian ministry for teens where Tom, in his capacity as Young Life staff, mentored Thomas. If you're confused at this point about which one's Tom and which one's Thomas, that's totally understandable. In fact, maybe that's the point, because their stories are like the shards of a once-broken object, their jagged, imperfect edges coming together to redeem the wasn't-supposed-to-be-this-way wounds of childhood into a meant-to-be miracle. In our conversation, Tom shares great wisdom and insight on two demographics that are especially pertinent to us dads: teenagers and middle-aged men, the two constituencies that he's ministered to in his 20-plus year career as a pastor. He also shares candidly about his pain from childhood, the healing he's received, and the growing up he still has left to do.One more thing to introduce this interview: I looked up the origin of the name Thomas and its shortened form, Tom, and it turns out that it's an Aramaic name that means "twin," so you might say that this episode pretty much named itself: Tom, Chosen Dad.Enjoy the transcript as well, specially prepared for clarity and impact.

My connection with Mario goes back to January, when I was part of the audience to his magic show, Mario the Maker Magician (@mariothemagician), for my niece's 6th birthday. As the lights dimmed in the theatre, I was expecting just a large scale version of magic shows that I'd seen at kids birthday parties, but looking back now, there were signs that this show would be different. The first was the location, the SOHO Playhouse, a downtown theatre proud of its rich place in history and as a launchpad of dreams for independent, off-broadway performers. The second was the credits and mentions in the program - Mario's been on Sesame Street, the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, and on tour opening for David Blaine who calls him "the best kids magician in the world." Within the first four minutes, Mario had the kids laughing and captivated, but what makes the show different is that by the last four minutes, he had all of us grownups clapping and choking back tears as he harmonized his magic with the heartbeat of his show, a mantra that goes like this: do what you love; use what you've got; never give up; and have fun. Wow. My wife, sister, brother-in-law and I all looked each other as if to say, did you just cry in a kids magic show, or was it just me?Please check out the episode page, which for the first time ever, includes a transcript of the conversation, edited for clarity and formatted to convey an appreciation for what it means to be a dad today.

John and I met for the interview at his office, the type of space that works very hard just to keep up and yet remain ultimately indistinguishable from the other offices in midtown Manhattan. In this office, I could imagine John and I being introduced for professional reasons - we both work in finance - but instead, we were meeting as two dads to talk about fatherhood.  In a nod to the professional environment around us, the start of our conversation felt like water cooler small talk, and to be honest, I was worried that John and I would be held back by our shared professional customs and mannerisms that insist on keeping things, well, professional rather than personal.  Thankfully, to borrow from St. Augustine, even though we were physically meeting in a building prototypical to the City of Man, by the end of our conversation, we would find ourselves seated at a communal table in the City of God.⁠⁠Episode page⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠All episodes⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Home page

If the vision for the Dad Bod is to capture the hidden drama of what it means to be a dad today, then for me personally, this conversation really nails it because so much of what Micah has to say about the feelings of being a dad really resonates with me. Feelings like exhaustion, restlessness, and guilt, but also gratitude, astonishment, and of course, love. Sitting across from Micah felt like listening to someone speak on behalf of my own personal cohort of dads: boys who grew up in suburban America in the 80s and 90s where unsupervised time outdoors and at friends' homes drinking soda from a can and water from a hose was the norm. Rather than repeat that upbringing for our kids, we (and I include myself) have taken to helicopter parenting. How did that happen?⁠⁠Episode page⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠All episodes⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Home page

Talking with Mitch was like getting a chance to look at my life from a healthy, helpful distance by being airlifted to his higher perch in life as a dad of two dads, a grandfather of six, and a husband of 45 years.  This episode is from a second conversation that I had with Mitch where he identified and shared his perspective on the major moments of transition in a child's life that we as dads should be particularly mindful of - yes, for the benefit of our children, but just as much for our benefit as well, because as he points out repeatedly, these are moments of transition for us, too.

Like many of you, I'm in my 40s and at this very, very full stage in life.  In overwhelming moments, my wife and I often ask each other, what do you think your older self might say to you?  The goal of this thought exercise is to access a clear-eyed perspective by looking at oneself from afar via a different moment in time, even if just in one's mind.  Well, talking to Mitch was like a super-charged version of that.  At 73 years of age with two sons, six grandkids, 45 years of marriage, and two incredible professional careers-worth of experience to draw from, speaking with Mitch felt like being airlifted to his perch in life and looking down at my own. ⁠⁠Episode page⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠All episodes⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Home page

In New York City, the person charged with the care, maintenance, and repair of a building is known as a "super." Short for superintendent, it also describes the quality of Alen's work and the superhuman way he seems to be in multiple places at once in the neighborhood, helping dozens of people get things done in their homes every single day.  That's exactly what he was doing in my apartment a few weeks ago.  We caught up while he installed a new light switch for me, and I briefly mentioned this personal project I've been working on, a podcast about what it means to be a dad today, and he immediately asked, "so when are you gonna have me on the show?"  Alen is a get-it-done kinda guy, so the two of us went ahead and got it done and thus, we have this episode. We met for the interview in the natural habitat of Alen's profession: the basement of my building, specifically behind the door marked, "DANGER: ELECTRIC ROOM."  In our conversation, Alan covers a lot of topics including his transformative early years in America; the differences between his three kids' upbringing and his own upbringing in a village in Montenegro; his many entrepreneurial pursuits, and what it really means to be a super. ⁠⁠Episode page⁠⁠ ⁠⁠All episodes⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Home page

A few years ago, Doug moved with his family from New York City to Taiwan to live a life that gives them the freedom to travel frequently, enjoy outdoorsy activities, and raise their kids as native Chinese speakers in an immersive Taiwanese cultural environment, all while still operating by the US-based e-commerce business that Doug started once upon a time as a side hustle to his data analytics career in NYC.  As you're about to hear, Doug and I had a great conversation about his life in Taiwan, but more importantly, we talk about the years-long journey to find the answer to a universal, burning question that led him there. Big thanks to Andrew, Dim Sum Dad for introducing me to Doug, after also introducing me to TJ, Seven Habits of Dad. ⁠Episode page⁠ ⁠All episodes⁠ ⁠Home page

John's wife says that he "looks like someone who used to work out" and John basically concurs, describing his dad bod shape as "oval." So if the shape of dad transformation is the oval, what is the shape of dad redemption? Episode page⁠ ⁠All episodes⁠ ⁠Home page

I met Andres more than 15 years ago, when he was dating my wife's childhood best friend and with whom he just celebrated 14 years of marriage.  At 60 years old, he is ahead of me in life and in parenting, and so even though we've never lived in the same city and our actual contact with each other is infrequent, I've looked up to him for a long time.  As you'll hear, Andres has a lot of deeply rooted wisdom gained through his experiences as a son, a chaplain, a pastor, a coach, and of course, as a dad. One of my favorite memories with Andres, which I'm not sure if he even remembers, is when he and his wife visited us when my wife was pregnant with our first.  On that visit, he specifically sought out one on one time with me to both pray for me and smoke a cigar with me as I was about to enter this amazing journey of fatherhood.  I'm not sure which came first, the praying or the cigars, but that moment is a little snapshot of how I see Andres: a person with whom every interaction teaches me more about God and life.

Like me, Charlie is an American-born son of immigrant parents.  Although the facts of our lives and cultures differ greatly, I recognize a lot of the same truths, and even though I'm not yet at his stage in life, I approach Charlie's story with a great deal of self interest: what can I learn from his experience about supporting a parent in the decline of old age and about ushering grown children into adulthood? This is one of the reasons I felt compelled to create The Dad Bod: to help us dads learn from other dads and to understand ourselves as connected to one another through the experience of fatherhood. And by learning, I don't mean tips, tricks, and how-tos.  Instead, I hope each of the Dad Bod episodes feels like being led through a small stack of photographs chosen by a dad from a partially sorted shoebox.  Such an experience offers something deeper than a tutorial, more complicated than a parable.

Many details in Thomas' story remind me of the other Dad Bod dads. Like Brian, he's a girl dad. Like Carlton, he met one of his mentors through the Young Life Christian organization. Like Jeremy, his dad struggled as a small business owner.  Like TJ, sports was the backdrop for a pivotal moment in his life. Like John, his dad couldn't be counted on.  Like Carlton, Andrew, and Brian, he's grieved his dad's passing.   In my imagination, I see Thomas gathered with the other Dad Bod dads, and this episode is him telling his story, adding it to the greater story of what it means to be a dad today.  And as he shares, the other dads acknowledge the similarities by nodding and saying, "me, too." Perhaps you've done the same while listening to The Dad Bod.  These similarities are the harmony to the melody of Thomas' story: a life deeply impacted by brokenness in his biological family but dramatically healed by divine grace through his chosen family.

Andrew described TJ to me as considerate, wise, thoughtful, and with an off-the-charts EQ.  But beyond these specific qualities, Andrew clearly regards TJ as simply one of the most high quality people that he's ever worked with.  I find this kind of recommendation - one regular, everyday guy who sees another regular, everyday guy being extraordinary with that very ordinary slice of life known as "work" - to be very compelling, so I entered my conversation with TJ hoping to learn how he became a person that my friend Andrew so highly respected.

I had a great time talking with Edwin, who was referred to the show by Charlie, Good Bad Ugly Dad from episode 7.  As we say on the Dad Bod, the show is here to reveal the hidden drama of modern day fatherhood, and so I appreciate Edwin for sharing his personal journey from growing up in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, way back in the day as well as his career in education - not as a teacher, but as a "fireman" of the New York City public school system - I'll let him explain what that means. But what I appreciate most from Edwin is the recognition that he gives his wife for everything that she does as a wife and as a mom.  As you'll hear, he points to her repeatedly throughout our conversation, which made me realize that the story of Edwin can only be made complete with the help of Pat.  You'll get to hear from both of them in this episode.

This reflection episode is dedicated to Carlton, Daddy's Boy Dad.  After listening to this episode, I encourage you to go back and listen to the full interview so that you can get a firsthand feel for who Carlton is and his story.

So my 20 year college reunion was a couple months ago.  I was on the fence about going until the last minute, but I'm so glad I did because I ended up reconnecting with my friend, fellow dad, and today's guest, John.  Even though John and I are the same age, I appreciate the wisdom he has to offer as a dad who, with three kids ages 15, 13, and 11, is several big stages ahead of me in the parenting journey.   John and I had an amazing conversation that was full of heart and humor. His story has many parts to it: immigrant kid; only child of a single mom; a man changed through faith; a career switcher; and a swimmer-turned-coach, just to name a few.   Now, to all of the loyal Dad Bod listeners out there, you might have noticed that one of the things that I tend to do when something's touched my heart, like really touched me deeply is I reach into my bag, dig around, dig around some more, and I pull out a nice, shiny metaphor.  So here goes.   All of these parts of John's story are like the facets of a diamond: solid panes of polished rock serving as reflective windows onto one another's surprising angles, components of a cohesive geometry formed through pressure and craftsmanship and thereby embodying the complex, hidden drama of modern fatherhood.  This episode is the longest one to date, but I assure you that if you like what we're doing with the Dad Bod, it'll be worth your time.

The eldest of 4, TJ grew up in Western PA and currently lives in London with his wife, their 5-year old son, and 3-year old daughter.  Professionally, he works in finance as a trader, and it's through his career that he crossed paths and became good friends with Andrew who our longtime listeners know as Andrew, Dim Sum Dad. I'm very excited to be sharing this conversation with you.  Even though it was our first time meeting (on an audio-only Zoom call at that), I could absolutely feel what Andrew was referencing in the Dim Sum Dad interview when he said of TJ, "This guy's EQ is off the charts, both in terms of self-awareness and how to interact with people, and one of the things he spoke about was his parents expectations of him to take responsibility at an early age."  Andrew clearly looks up to TJ, and I suspect that many other people do as well.   In our conversation, TJ - in his very, very humble manner - discusses the principles that he lives by, which can all be seen as extending from that spirit of self awareness and personal responsibility that Andrew identified in him.  These principles - sharpening the ax, sphere of influence, and bonding through adversity, to name a few - were imprinted on TJ through important seasons and people from his life, including his wrestling career, his dad's constant presence, his mom's unshakable strength, and his parents' collaboration in raising TJ and his three siblings.

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“Favorite comfort food?” I asked Andrew during the warm up to our interview. “Dim sum,” he said, noting some classic dishes as well as a modern innovation from Toronto, kalbi short ribs with maggi sauce.  When he said it, I thought it was simply a nice answer to one of several warm-up questions that I ask guests before we get into the actual interview. But after struggling to come up with a good title (Canada Dad? CanaDad?) my mind wandered back to “dim sum” as his favorite comfort food.  What is a comfort food anyway? Something tasty and indulgent, true, but the best comfort food also carries deep personal meaning, reminding you of when you were little and other important moments in life, as well as the people you love and who loved you through food.  I listened again to Andrew answering the question of favorite comfort food. When he says “dim sum," he says it with a question mark at the end - dim sum? - and I understand why.

I met Charlie through Carlton, Daddy's Boy Dad, which makes Charlie the first referred guest of The Dad Bod! Carlton gave me Charlie's basic bio - devoted husband and father of 3 kids, two girls, ages 22 and 12, and a son age 19; professionally, he's a branch manager at a commercial financial institution - as well as details he knows as a close friend of Charlie's - the burdens and stresses of his dad's declining health and the energy and ambition he's channeling into small business side hustles.  Carlton also shared this by text: “Charlie is a great man. He supported me when my mother passed away, canceling his morning meetings to attend the celebration of life for my mother. He is a mirror of a good friend.” With the text, he included a photo of Charlie in a black suit, head bowed, next to the open casket of Carlton's mother.  A few weeks before we would have the actual interview, I jumped on the phone with Charlie to answer some questions that he had about the interview process. “How real do you want me to be?” he asked. It was his first question and it told me a lot about Charlie and what our conversation would be like.  As you'll hear, Charlie is a great story teller. Listening to him, you can feel the powerful, unifying narrative that courses through the stories of his life as a son, a man, and, of course, as a dad.

We're 4 dads into season 1 of The Dad Bod! Brian, Coach Girl Dad. Jeremy, Ph.D-as-in-Dad. Andrew, Dim Sum Dad. Carlton, Daddys' Boy Dad. Sitting down with these guys to go deep into the hidden drama of fatherhood has been a very rewarding experience. And so, I want to give back some of what I've personally reaped from this experience by starting a series of reflection episodes to go with the interviews, where I share my own reflections on each of the dads that are interviewed for the Dad Bod, beginning with Brian and Jeremy.

Carlton and I became friends while Carlton was doing his job delivering the mail in my neighborhood - or maybe I should say that we became friends while I was living in his neighborhood, because even though he's Brooklyn born and raised, he's been operating from the Planetarium Post Office since before I ever even set foot in New York. Now, we New Yorkers have a reputation for being unfriendly. That's fair to a degree, but I think it's more accurate and descriptive to say that our MO is to focus on our day-to-day business and to let others do the same. At the same time, because we live in close quarters to one another, some of the most familiar faces in our lives often belong to strangers that you walk past or ride the subway with on a routine basis. The vast majority of the time, a familiar stranger remains a stranger; rarely do they cross over to become an acquaintance; and rarer still do they cross all the way over to become a friend.  But that's what happened with Carlton and me. From our random conversations, it was obvious to me that he is passionate about fatherhood and mentorship, so even though we didn't know each other well, I had this feeling that it would be really great to have him as a guest on The Dad Bod. He graciously accepted my request to sit with me for an interview and thus we have today's episode.   For the interview, I took the 2 train to the end of the line, near Carlton's neck of the woods in Brooklyn. From there, he drove us another 10 minutes or so to the Christian Cultural Center a.k.a. "CCC." On this particular Wednesday morning, CCC was bustling with activity for a FDNY graduation ceremony. As we walked through the building, Carlton exchanged hugs, handshakes, and banter with just about everybody and introduced me to everyone. The warmth and strength of Carlton's community was tangible.  I could feel why he credits CCC with changing his life and as you listen to Carlton speak, he does indeed sound like a person who is living a changed life; a person who has searched and wandered, experienced adversity and trauma, mourned and processed his trauma on his own and in community, has done the work to become something new, and is now sharing all of that wisdom, perspective, and presence back with others. I'm very grateful and excited to be sharing this conversation with you, as well as a little something different and new that I put at the very end of the episode.

Not only is dim sum Andrew's favorite comfort food, it is also a great metaphor for his family story: a multigenerational family meal that gained full citizenship at the expansive culinary tables of Canada and the United states, and where values, lessons, and customs are passed with as much sincerity and fervor as the dishes themselves. Andrew and I have been friends for about as long as we've both been dads in part because our daughters were born around the same time and have become better and better friends themselves over the years. I'm so glad that Andrew and I were able to sit down for this extended conversation because Andrew is someone I see on a pretty regular basis, but the circumstances always make it hard to go deep on the things that are going on in life and that are on our minds.  As you'll hear, Andrew has some very thoughtful perspectives and visions to share on a wide range of topics that he's passionate about including raising Asian American kids, his vision for leadership being taught in the future as a fundamental skill, and of course, what's going on with his dad bod.  But before we get to hear Andrew discuss those topics, we'll start with Andrew introducing himself and reflecting on his childhood, his parents, and his own dad in particular.  As I listened back on my conversation with Andrew, I came away with a subtle yet powerful feeling of connection that extends from his parents - their personal histories and how they raised Andrew and his sister - to how Andrew approaches being a dad today.

Jeremy and I became friends through our kids. Even though we live just a few blocks apart, our first conversation was actually over Facetime, back in February of 2020 as we were about to go into lockdown here in New York.  I've always appreciated Jeremy's perspective on things because he speaks thoughtfully and in a way that reflects his wide range of life experiences.  West coast kid.  East coast grown up.  Full-time stay at home dad.  Passionate teacher.  Renaissance learner.  Freelance musician.  We touched on all of those in our wide-ranging conversation, so to borrow from the granddaddy of all podcasts, This American Life, we're gonna tell Jeremy's story in 4 acts:  Act 1: Mom and Dad, I'm moving. At 27 years of age, Jeremy tells his parents that he's moving to NYC. Jeremy recalls their surprising reaction. Act 2: Balancing the equation. What does a full time stay at home dad do in the middle of a pandemic? Pursue a graduate degree in math, of course. In this act, Jeremy shares how he's balancing this new variable in the equation of life as a dad. Act 3: Music is the model. Jeremy first started playing the piano when he was 5, worked as a freelance pianist and moved to NYC for music in his 20s, but says that he only learned to truly play the piano when he was almost 40 years old. This act unpacks the key events and incredible wisdom from Jeremy's journey as a pianist. I have to say that hearing Jeremy's story has me rethinking the way I'm approaching many areas in my life, so I hope you stick around for this act. Act 4: In the trenches, drinking lots of beer. In this brief final act, Jeremy fulfills his sacred responsibility of referring another dad to be a future guest on the Dad Bod.

Here. We. GO! I am very excited to introduce the first ever guest of The Dad Bod, my childhood best friend, Brian. In our conversation, Brian shares some really great insights from his life as a girl dad, especially from his experience coaching his two girls' basketball teams. On this topic, I really appreciate how open and honest Brian was in evaluating his own performance as a coach.  Although he's talking about coaching his daughter, what Brian shares is very relatable to the experience of parenting in general. We also get into the topic of money and the wisdom and perspective that Brian is trying to pass on to his daughters, as well as Brian's reflections on his own dad's parenting. Brian also shares some practical notes and perspective about how he maintains his dad bod and how he's still playing basketball in his 40s. As you'll hear, Brian's still getting LOTS of buckets, so I try to stir up some controversy to see if he thinks he should be the league MVP. Visit ⁠thedadbodpod.com⁠ to stay in touch and tap the "refer a dad" button to recommend a guest for the show.

Welcome to the Dad Bod, the story of what it means to be a dad today! After years of thinking about this, I am very excited to be finally sharing The Dad Bod with you. In this introductory episode, I go behind the formula of "one dad per episode to get the story of what it means to be a dad today" to share a bit about the inspiration and vision for the show. Thank you for listening! Visit thedadbodpod.com to stay in touch and tap the "refer a dad" button to recommend a guest for the show.