Podcasts about colin you

We hear about people's brutal injuries on their downstairs. We speak to Belle's boyfriend Luke, and he may have accidentally let slip on her embarrassing pet name. Injuries on ya downstairs   610 Quiz: Liam flops around   Belle reckons she only has two squares of chocolate   Embarrassing pet names  Goat wrangler Colin   You've won the fast five!!!!   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Connect rates, conversion rates, and many more. Cold calling may be an art with the messaging, tonality, and delivery, but it is also a science where we need to understand its data for a better sales process. This episode of the Live Better Sell Better Podcast features Colin Specter, Vice President of Sales at Orum.Desired outcomes can be achieved by calculating a mathematical formula that you can use to derive the number of calls you have to make. Colin shares what metrics you should be tracking and how you can tweak your messaging to increase conversion and book more meetings. HIGHLIGHT QUOTESThe metrics to look at - Colin: "You want to look at your dial-to-connect ratio, you want to look at your connect-to-conversation ratio, how many conversations are you getting out of each at-bat? And then, how many of those conversations are leading to a meeting?"Different approaches in openers - Colin: "There are different openers, there are different ways people love to approach the cold call. It really comes down to tonality and enthusiasm in many cases. But there are all kinds of openers. You could try what works for you."You can find out more about Colin in the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinspecter/Orum: https://www.orum.com/Connect with KD in the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kddorsey3/Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/insidesalesexcellenceLive Better. Sell Better. is sponsored by our proud partner:Rocket Reach | rocketreach.com

Athletes, especially long-distance runners, sustain a lot of injuries in their career. Their injuries mainly affect the lower extremities, like the calf or the foot. Wearing the appropriate gear and proper shoes, as well as using orthotics, can make a lot of difference.  Dr Colin Dombroski joins us in this episode to explain the benefit of orthotics to foot health. He also talks about common running injuries and how wearing the correct shoes can prevent these. If you are a runner and want to know more about orthotics and the science behind shoes, then this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover the benefits of orthotics and modern imaging techniques in foot health. Learn more about common running-specific injuries and ways to prevent them. Know about the brain-foot connection and the knock-on effect of footwear. Resources The Foot Strength Plan by Colin Dombroski The Plantar Fasciitis Plan by Colin Dombroski Born to Run by Christopher McDougall The Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast SoleScience Connect with Colin: Website | Email | Facebook | Skype: solescience   Episode Highlights [03:14] Colin’s Background Colin designs and manufactures custom foot orthotics.  His researches revolve around general footwear, lower extremity therapy, and how these things interact to make people better. Colin works on 3D printing orthotics, which shows how the foot works or moves in real-time.  He works with people to get them back on their feet and do what they want to do. [04:36] How Foot Imaging Works Colin uses a 3D motion analysis lab to study the workings of the lower extremities. Alternatively, he also partners with the WOBL lab to do biplanar fluoroscopy. This procedure maps out somebody’s foot in 3D space.  It helps understand what is happening to the foot in real-time; it shows feet in a shoe under different circumstances.  Colin looks into the best way to make an orthotic for someone. Imaging helps to see what is happening in the foot when a person is barefoot, in a shoe, or using orthotics.  [09:56] Are Orthotics Generally Good? Orthotics are neither good nor bad; we cannot generalise.  It may be suitable for someone with arthritis but may not be beneficial to someone with no problems.  Orthotics are used as tools to help people with recovery and performance.  Colin’s job is to tell people whether they need orthotics or not.  When they have done their job, they’re removed. [12:57] Rehabilitation vs Orthotics In mild foot aches, over-the-counter devices can work well.  Orthotics are not a first-line treatment for some conditions.  Look at other things first before going down the route of orthotics.  Foot strengthening is very beneficial.  Do simple things that make feet work as feet.  [16:55] Does Wearing Shoes Result in Weaker Feet? Not walking for a few blocks is just as harmful as having shoes that do not fit you.  Poorly fitting shoes can be bad for you.  Women wearing high-heeled shoes for a long time can have a lot of foot problems later on.  Colin recommends we exercise moderation when wearing heels.  [25:15] How to Prevent Running Injuries Injuries usually result in a mismatch between the style of a person’s foot and the kind of shoe they wear.  Footwear should fit into your foot design so you don’t cram your toes.  Some shoes may fit while you are buying them in a store, but they may end up not fitting at all or when you are already running long distances. If you don’t know how the sock liner, width, toe spring, and heel drop of the shoe interact, the potential for injury is more significant.  Listen to the full episode to learn more about the running injuries that Colin has encountered and how to prevent them. [32:42] Running on Concrete vs Running on Natural Terrain The natural terrain is easy to run on compared to concrete.  Mitigate the force of initial contact to avoid injuries.  Listen to the full episode to learn more about what type of shoe you need for different surfaces. [34:29] On Transitioning Your Footwear If you want to go barefoot, do it gradually. Scientific literature has discussed the importance of transition shoes. If you’re going to drop your 10- to 12-millimetre heel drop shoe to 4, you need to have a 6- to 8-millimetre transition shoe.  [37:22] How Often Should We Change Shoes? Do not let shoes sit on shelves for more than two years because the material stiffens. In general, alternating shoes are good after 6800 kilometres.  However, this still depends on how quickly you wear out the outsole of your shoes.  Having shoes with different heel heights for different types of running would be very beneficial.  [42:59] The Brain-Foot Connection When you ignore stabilisers and prime mover muscles, you get a mismatch in balance and performance.  It’s important at the lower leg holistically.  Colin acknowledges that we get a different sensation if we’re barefoot versus when we have socks and shoes on. However, it’s a misnomer to say that putting on footwear reduces your proprioception or sensation. Your brain adjusts to the sensory input being thrown its way. [48:39] Achilles Injuries Achilles injuries result when people change the drop of their shoe or change their running style too quickly.  There is a genetic predisposition for people with Achilles issues.  Using things like heel lifts in footwear takes some load off the Achilles, allowing it to heal. Any ankle restriction can make you use your Achilles differently.  Listen to the full episode to learn about the importance of a multidisciplinary approach in looking at conditions.   7 Powerful Quotes ‘If someone's not getting the right kind of results, it could be that they just need to be adjusted. But then some people don't believe that they need to be adjusted. They believe your foot functions best one particular way’. ‘I think that a lot of people have lost the ability to connect with their brain and their feet and they need to get that ability back’. ‘It's not putting everything into a box of good or bad, you know, but it's looking at it holistically’. ‘We get back to my point where [we do things in] moderation. There's a time to spend time in the sand, there's a time to spend time in the trail, and there's time to get on the road’. ‘If you can get that little bit of variability where you're lengthening some days, you're shortening some days, you're doing different things and your body is used to that, then you're going to be more adaptive. But if you lock into that one pattern, it's going to be so much harder to change’. ‘You also need to have a really good understanding of the whole anatomy of the body because you have to be holistic in your approach’. ‘You know your limits better than somebody else. But I think that there's also a time when you do need to respect the knowledge that someone's gone and spent time attaining.   About Dr Colin Dombroski Dr Colin Dombroski is a podiatrist and a foot specialist of 20 years; he is also an author and a researcher. He works in the world of shoes, orthotics, rehab, and range. He specialises in any feet issues, from plantar fasciitis to Achilles injuries.  Connect with Colin through his website. You may also reach out to him through email or Facebook.   Enjoy the Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can know more about the proper shoes to use for running.  Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: You're listening to Pushing The Limits with Lisa Tamati, your host. I have a fantastic gift again for you today. Gosh, I managed to come up with some amazing people. So I have the guest Dr Colin Dombroski, who is a podiatrist and expert on everything foot. He's known as the foot specialist. He is the author of two books, Healthy Strong Feet, and The Plantar Fasciitis Plan. He's a researcher, and also has a shoe—a specialist running shoe shop. He knows everything about the cutting edge of foot health.  So this is a topic that's really important, obviously, for all the runners listening out there. Or if you're having any sort of issues with your feet, maybe you're dealing with plantar fasciitis, maybe you have to have orthotics, or you've got arthritis, or you've got bunions, or you've got problems with your Achilles or further up the kinetic chain, then this is the episode for you because we're going to be talking about the cutting edge of science. Dr Colin is really up on the latest thing. He has all the fancy gadgets in his lab that he does. And so it's a really, really interesting conversation that I have with Dr Colin.  Now before we go over to the show. If you are also looking for—doing a running training plan that fits your life and without having to think about how to assemble the entire plan yourself, then please come and check out what we do at Running Hot Coaching. We have a brand new package that we now offer and there's a fully customised package to you, to your goals, to your injuries, your lifestyle, anything that's holding you back, and we can customise it to you. And you'll also get full video analysis done with this package and a one-on-one consult with me in a personalised plan for your next event. Whether that be a marathon, a half marathon, ultramarathon, 10K, it doesn't really matter that's up to you. And you get 12 months of access to Running Hot Coaching’s whole resource library and all the other plans that are available on me, so it’s a super, super deal.  You also get access to our community of over 700 runners from around the world that we get to coach nowadays and hang out with them. And also we do live events on occasion and do regular educational webinars and so on. So everything running. If you want help with it, then we would love to help you get in—make the best out of your running. Okay, so check that out at runninghotcoaching.com.  Right, over to the show now with Dr Colin Dombroski.  Lisa Tamati: Well, hello, everyone. Welcome back to Pushing The Limits. It's your host, Lisa Tamati here. And today I have Colin Dombroski with me, all the way from Ontario in Canada. So welcome to the show, Colin. Fantastic to have you. Dr Colin Dombroski: Thanks so much for having me. Lisa: It's really, really exciting. So I am going to be talking to you today about feet. You are the foot guy. You are known as the foot guy. Colin, can you give us a bit of a brief background, why are you known as the foot guy? Dr Colin: Well, I mean, I'm a Canadian certified podiatrist first and foremost. So I'm trained in both the design and the manufacturer of custom foot orthotics, foot orthotics in general, footwear and lower extremity therapy care, and how those things interact to get people better. And so, we started that back in 2002. And since then, I've gone on to do PhD work in Health and Rehabilitation Science, and research and everything from the basic 3D printings of orthotics to how the foot’s actually moving in a shoe using things like a biplanar fluoroscopy and CT imaging to really understand what's actually going on, as opposed to just kind of guessing and thinking about it or looking at video without actually being able to see inside the shoe.  And so we've seen tens of thousands of patients. We've worked with people over the last 20 years, really working to get them back up and on their feet and doing the things that they want to do to stay healthy. And for some people, it's as simple as walking around the block and for other people it's going to the Olympics in Tokyo. Lisa: Wow, fantastic.  So you're deep into the science... Dr Colin: Yes. Lisa: ...of the absolute cutting edge of what we can do now for foot issues and optimising foot health. So tell us a little bit about some of the fancy stuff that you can do, like, how that—you said there you can look into the inside a shoe or...  Dr Colin: Yes. Lisa: ...rather than just looking at video. How does that work? Dr Colin: I'll tell you on the research side, there's all kinds of fancy stuff that we were able to do. And so, right now I have an academic appointment through Western University in the School of Physical Therapy. So, I'm lucky enough to be able to do research in what I do specifically. So—and we can do that in a couple of different ways. One is that we actually have a full 3D motion analysis lab at our main business in London Ontario. So it's seven Vicon cameras, much like the way you would see motion analysis for video games or for the movies.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Colin: Well, we use that to study how the lower extremity works in the human body. And so we can either put markers on the foot and cut windows into the shoe, so we can see how things move. That's one way to do it. The other way that we've done it is working with another lab called the wobble lab, and they have two movie x-rays, or what's called biplanar fluoroscopy. And then what we can do is have a CT of somebody's foot, we can take those bones out, we can map them in three-dimensional space. And at 17 times per second, we can move that bone model on top of the actual movie x-ray model to understand what's happening to the foot and the bones in real-time in a shoe, under different circumstances, whether that's no orthotic, orthotic, and we can compare that to their walking barefoot as well. Lisa: That is insane Colin. I have no idea. Dr Colin: Yes. it's a cool thing. And if you go on the website, if you go on—I think we have a fluoroscopy video up on stuff about feet. But if we don't, there's certainly one up on the research section of SoleScience, and you're able to actually watch, you can see what we're looking at through this thing.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Colin: And it's really cool to know. And what's really interesting when we look at this stuff is that we wanted to know when we make somebody an orthotic. What's the best way to do that for someone? There's different ways that we can capture somebody's foot, whether we use a foam or a wax method or a plaster mould of somebody's foot, we wanted to know kind of based on a couple of different styles, which one might actually control the motion of their foot a bit better. And we were able to show that one was more effective than another—made a small amount with a very specific foot type.  So, if you have a flatter foot, there are ways of making it that are more effective. But what was really interesting out of that was to look at what was actually happening with the foot when someone was just walking barefoot, when they were just walking in their shoe, or when we put an orthotic in there? Because you know if I can go on a bit of a tangent, there's lots of scary stuff on the internet these days about how, ‘Oh, you don't want to walk in shoes and orthotics because it makes you act like you're walking in a cast. And why would you want to do that'?  Well, what's really interesting is that when we looked at someone's foot walking barefoot, and we compared that to the most supportive thing that we use, they still kept up to 96% of their original motion.  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Colin: So, think about that for a second, 96% or one motion.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Colin: So, you're really at that point, if someone's keeping that much of their original range of motion, you really have to wonder, ‘What are we actually doing with these things?’ And I'm going to argue that it's more than just the shoe on someone's foot. It's more than just the device in that shoe, that there could be a lot more actually going on with these things than we fully understand even though we have the best research methods to be able to look at it.  Lisa: That's amazing. I mean, I'm really, really interested because with orthotics, I've recently gone and got my mum an orthotic and you don't know my mum's story. But she had a massive aneurysm five years ago, has dropped foot on the right side, incredible rehabilitation journey, written a book on it. But we're not having such success with the orthotic yet. We are having success with a Dictus where it's helping lift her foot. And I've had in the past two experiences with orthotics when I've had different issues, like, I can't remember now what specifically, I think it was plantar fasciitis. And I've tried different things, admittedly a while ago, and things have obviously moved on. But I haven't had that much success.  So I'm like, as a running coach, I should know more about the latest in science as far as orthotics go. And whether they're my initial reaction back then was, ‘Well, I don't think orthotics are really working for a lot of people’. That's been the feedback from other people as well. So obviously, the science has moved forward and it is offering new insights and you can actually see in real-time what our bones are doing. I mean, it's just absolutely mental, that's crazy and cool. So do you think—isn't it like walking around with a cast on your foot? We've got this whole barefoot craze that's been in the last few years and then we've got brands like Hoka One One coming out with really cushions. So, I think people are a little bit confused as to what they should be doing.  Dr Colin: Yes, and rightfully so. Lisa: Our orthotic is good. Our orthotics in general is—can we generalise when it's very specific. Dr Colin: Nope. Not at all. We can’t generalise it all and that's the problem when it comes to this stuff is that people are trying to fit everybody into a box. And saying that either it's really good, or it's really bad. It’s either of those things? Like, to the end of the day, if you really need them, if you have rheumatoid arthritis, and you're unable to walk around the block, and I'm able to get you active again, they're really good for you.  Lisa: Yes, absolutely. Dr Colin: Right? But if you have no risk factors, if you have no biomechanical abnormalities, if you have no foot deformities and no other issues, then what's the benefit of wearing them at the end of the day? And so to that end of things, a lot of the time, I feel as though we're missing the middle ground. We're missing the fact that people can use these things, either as a tool to help them with recovery and performance that we can then work to wean them off, if they so choose, or if they need to be, or we use them because there's a real thing where structure dictates function and injury.  But again, why are we looking to see whether or not people are either yes or no, off or on? It's more of a continuum. And I kind of like to look at people and the fact that over on this end of the spectrum, here, you've got people who are so gifted biomechanically that they can do anything they want to do, despite doing it wrong. They can go couch to marathon in old worn-out shoes with poor sleep with bad nutrition, and they can do it and they don't get hurt. And you've got people on the other end of the spectrum that can do everything, right, and work with the best coaches and get the best equipment and eat and sleep and everything else. But they're plagued with injury, right?  Most people are going to be somewhere in the middle, the question though, so, which side of the spectrum do you lie more towards? And that's where I feel my job comes in, is to figure out where that is, and then how to appropriately apply these things, whether or not you actually need them. And I build a business on telling people when they don't need them.  Lisa: That's brilliant.  Dr Colin: And when they don't need them anymore. So, it's actually quite shocking when someone comes into my office for their ninth orthotic, and I say, ‘Well, tell me about it'. And so they—we talk about stuff, and we come to the conclusion that they just don't need them anymore.  And they're shocked, they think that these things are like a lifelong sentence. And they're not. For some people, they are the difference between being able to be active or not. And for other people, there's simply a tool, and we use that tool appropriately, and we remove it. Lisa: That is absolutely gold, Colin. And what a fantastic approach in, like, working with people with disabilities and stuff, I know there are definitely times when we do need them, and they're going to benefit and it is very much about the skill of the person who's fitting the orthotic and knows, obviously, what they're doing. And there’s a lot of advertising out there; rubbish sort of advertising that you see with different standard gum, pick it off the shelf type things, what's your opinion on those types of orthotics?  Dr Colin: Well, I mean, if those—so, if something like that, like if an over the counter device works for you, for—let's say you have a mild case of metatarsalgia. Let's say you have a small ache in the front part of your foot when you're active, and you've done all the rest of the conservative therapy things. You're strong, you're flexible, everything else is ticked off, and you're still not doing well. Sometimes removing that little bit of mechanical stress can be enough that allows the tissues to heal and you can move on. Right? So in those cases, yes, they work quite well.  But in some cases, if you have a foot type that doesn't match up with that shaped plastic that's pushing against your foot, it might not work so much. And kind of to your point where you were saying you had them for plantar fasciitis before, and they just didn't work for you, it could be a multitude of reasons why they didn't work for you. And we see that all the time.  And if someone's not getting the right kind of results, it could be that they just need to be adjusted. But then some people don't believe that they need to be adjusted. They believe your foot functions best, one particular way. And they say, ‘Here, this is for you. This is the way it should be, get used to it'. Lisa: And then it's the whole side of: you should be doing strengthening exercises and rolling and stretching. What's your take on the whole on that side of it? So the rehabilitation side of it as opposed to the orthotic side of the equation? Dr Colin: Well, so my—the way that we teach about orthotics is that orthotics for some conditions are not a first line treatment unless you have significant risk factors. If you're diabetic, then yes, 100% we're making you orthotics. But for a lot of people especially let's take plantar fasciitis for instance. If you come to me and you've had plantar fasciitis only for a few weeks, there is a whole host of other therapies that you can try before you even need to think about that. Is removing the stress off the tissue, the strain off the tissue with the device and footwear appropriate? Heck yes, it is. But there are other things that you need to look at first before you even go down the route of orthotics which is actually why I wrote my first book. And it's to tell people the things that they can do at home to be able to get themselves better for four to six weeks before they have to see somebody like me to think about orthotics.  Lisa: Okay, so what was the title of that book, Colin? Dr Colin: Oh, it's called The Plantar Fasciitis Plan.  Lisa: The Plantar Fasciitis Plan and that is available on Amazon? Dr Colin: Yes.  Lisa: Okay, so in New Zealand, we might struggle with Amazon, but we don't have Amazon down here, believe it or not.  Dr Colin: I have no idea. Lisa: We can access it, but some things can ship from over the air and some not so. But we'll put the links in the show notes for sure for those listening who are overseas and want to read that book. Okay, so you mentioned... Dr Colin: And to speak to your last question...  Lisa: Absolutely. Dr Colin: ...which was, what do you think about the whole foot strengthening part of it?  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Colin: I think it's very important, I think that a lot of people have lost the ability to connect with their brain and their feet, and they need to get that ability back, it's shocking how many people I see that can do something as simple as move their toes, or lift their arch, or do some of the simple things that they need to do to make feet work as feet. Right? And so, getting them back to that foot connection is only a positive thing. Like, the only good things are going to come out of that. Lisa: So, is this like, is this a problem of the modern human because we've walked around in shoes. Did humans, before shoes come along, did we all have great feet? Strong powerful feet because we were barefoot from the get go? So is this a problem of the modern human but like with—I've just done a couple of episodes on breathing and the way that we are chewing is affecting our structure of our mouth and therefore we're not having such good breathing and so on. Is that similar sort of case? Dr Colin: I really think that when you talk to a question about that, it's really hard to compare those two things because we're just not there right now. You know what I mean? So, yes, if we didn't wear clothes, and we didn't drive cars, and we didn't eat the way that we did, yes, things would be different than where they are. But like, we drive our cars to go five blocks down the street to get to Starbucks, we don't walk. So, that alone is just as deleterious as footwear that doesn't fit you properly.  So when it comes to shoes, again, there's lots of scariness out there on the internet, talking about how these things, again, make you walk like your cast or is deforming your feet. And yes, I would agree that a poorly fit shoes that are way too tight cramming your toes, putting stress on nerves and tissues certainly can be a bad thing for you. But do I think that there's this gigantic conspiracy out there that's making the collective feet of the world less strong and everything else? No, I really don't, to that end. And again, as a recovery tool, they can be marvellous things if done correctly. Lisa: Yes, it's a really good approach. I mean, it reminds me of my dad's feet. My dad who recently passed, unfortunately. But my dad had the most amazing, strong, powerful feet, he grew up in the first 13 years of life and not wearing shoes. Came from a very humble background with eight children, and they only had one pair of gumboots in the family. So he grew up with these incredibly powerful feet.  By the time he was in his 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, he could walk around barefoot all day, never have any sort of problems. The state of his heels weren't the best. But muscular feet, really strong powerful feet, because he didn't wear shoes until he was older and then still like to go barefoot whenever possible, actually connected to the earth, weed garden all day, and their feet at the most jungles. So I did see it in that. Quite the effects of having that real connection to Mother Earth if you like in developing those sort of strong muscles in our feet.  And then on the other side of the equation. I see people with diabetics or close to being pre-diabetic problems with extremely tender feet and poor circulation in the feet and their feet are just not moving well and have always been in shoes. So it's like opposite ends of the scale via. So, where was I going with this? There's a real broad range of where people are at. Another thing that I think is to consider is women in high heeled shoes, what's your take on that sort of a problem? Like, were lifting your heels up and having a shortened calf. And that's sort of a problem. Dr Colin: Well, I mean, that for too long of a period of time just gives you a whole myriad of problems from metatarsalgia, and progressing bunion issues, and nerve problems, and chronically short Achilles because of that shortening specifically, yes. I mean, we see that all the time. I'm very much a fan of moderation when it comes to these things.  And so for a lot of my patients, if they want to spend an evening, every now and again, where they're primarily sitting in a pair of heels, then I feel as though the trade-off for what they get out of that is okay, comparatively. Again, it's not putting everything into a box of good or bad, but it's looking at it holistically.  Lisa: Brilliant. I think it's a really good approach. Dr Colin: Yes, if you're a retail worker, and you're spending 10 hours a day, on your feet, heels are definitely not the thing you want to be wearing. Lisa: Yes, you've got to sacrifice the elegance, ladies. Sometimes you help that little pushes. Dr Colin: A little bit sometimes. And you know where I end up seeing that a lot? It’s in lawyers. A lot of my patients who are lawyers. There is definitely a culture of dress code and professionalism that comes from wearing heels. And I see a lot of injured lawyers because of that, specifically.  Lisa: Isn't that interesting? So yes, really take heed because I do think doing that on a daily basis, yes. The odd night out in a pair of heels to look elegant is fine, but not doing it every single day, were you really shortening, I mean, just, I'm always sort of relating things back to my life. But with mum having aneurysm, being bedridden pretty much for 18 months before we could get her standing. And I didn't understand at the beginning about drop foot, I missed the boat. And by the time I realised what drop foot was, that had happened very, very quickly, that her foot was now dropped until we're still working on that right through now, to be able to lift set front of the foot up and having to use a Dictus in her case, which lifts the front of the foot up. So it happens very—it happens quicker than what you think. Dr Colin: It can, certainly. Yes. Now the brace that your mum's using, do you mind if I asked you a quick question? Is she using an over-the-counter one or a custom one? Lisa: So it's an over-the-counter Dictus one as I didn't know there was such a thing as a customised Dictus. So it's just a leather strap that goes around with a rubber that goes over inside these two little hooks at the bottom of the shoes that pulls the shoe up. So is there something better, Colin? Dr Colin: Well, so, take a look for something called an Allard ToeOff AFO. And we use them a lot in clinics for patients with drop foot and they're actually designed to be to run marathons and events and they're quite robust.  Lisa: Okay, I’ll take note of that. Dr Colin: And it might be a great training tool too. They're very light. You should wear them under a pair of pants. A lot of people like the fact that they don't see the direct brace.  Lisa: Yes, yes. Yes, exactly. This one's quite ugly. So, is it Allard?  Dr Colin: A-L-L-A-R-D. Lisa: Oh, brilliant.  Dr Colin: So as in Allard ToeOff.  Lisa: Allard ToeOff, I will check that out. See, this is a selfish reason why I get to talk to experts.  Dr Colin: There we go.  Lisa: Because you never know when it's gonna help somebody you know? It's fantastic. I'll check that one out. Yes, because that is a real problem. And there's so many—this is not a rare thing, drop foot. It's a very, very common thing with people with strokes and aneurysms and the like.  Dr Colin: It is. Lisa: So, there's a lot of people dealing with it so going into the rehabilitation side of things. We have a shoe that has a rocker so she's able to toe-off slightly better in that rocker and keep her center of mass moving forward. Rather than sitting really back which she was doing. So yes, so I'm always looking for the next best thing for my mum from the show. So, appreciate that. Dr Colin: No problem. And since you're a runner and all that stuff, the Asics Metaride is my favourite carbon shoe rocker. We've got so many people who really require surgery, fusions, things like that because of osteoarthritic toes or ankles or mid feet that can get into a shoe like that.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Colin: And for people who are that age, they're not nearly as flashy looking as some of the other carbon rockered shoes that are available. Lisa: Yes, but who cares as long as they function properly. Okay, Asics Metaride. Okay, we'll check those one out too. Now let's jump ship and change direction a little bit and go into running specific injuries. So we did touch briefly on playing to the shortest. But what are some of the common injuries that you see? And what are some of the ways that we can prevent? And how does it have a knock-on effect? Like what happens in your feet, knocks on the kinetic chain, doesn't it? Dr Colin: Of course. Yes. So what I take a look at, the one of the biggest things are going to be mismatches between the style of foot that somebody has and their mechanics and the kind of shoe they wind up getting into. And so there's nothing like being able to mismatch the way that your foot wants to move, and then a shoe that's going to either work completely and pushing it in the same direction. So for instance, if you're a supinator, where your foot rolls to the outside, and then you get into an anti-pronation shoe, which a lot of people are—there's actually been research to show that runners are poor judges of their own foot type.  Lisa: Right. Dr Colin: And if they get into that kind of footwear that makes them into more of a supinator. I can't tell you how many lateral column foot pain problems we see and perennial overuse problems and things like that. So simply mismatching your footwear to what your foot is doing can be one of them.  Lisa: Okay. Getting on and off the shelf is not, and diagnosing yourself is probably not a good idea if you're a serious runner who wants to do some serious racing. Dr Colin: Well, maybe it's a good idea to run your findings by someone else who can take an objective third-party look at you. And so some people think, ‘Oh, my foot is so flat, I need to get into this kind of footwear'. And that might not always be the case when it comes down to it. So the footwear component of it is so big. Making sure that it actually fits the way that your foot is designed. So if you have a particularly wide forefoot and a narrower rear foot, looking for things that actually match up with that, so that you're not cramming your toes into a pair of shoes. Lisa: As a run coach, if I can just pipe in there that has been one of the biggest mistakes that I've seen so many athletes buy. They go into a shoe shop that does foot analysis, and they proceed them on a treadmill and so on. So they may have the right type of shoe, but they're after buying the shoe in a cold state. So i.e., they've just walked into a shop, they haven't been on their feet all day, they haven't been running for 30K's, their feet are not swollen.  And then they go and if they do marathons, or especially ultramarathons, their feet are swelling. And especially I've seen this in women where we tend to swell tissues in my opinion, not scientifically-backed or anything but my observation is that women's feet swell more than men. And the size of the shoe is then way too small, especially in the toe box. And this often leads to pain on the top of the foot and the cutting off of circulation there. And I've seen problems with the shins and so on.  Have you—is it a thing? Have you seen this sort of a trend as well, where they're going into the shop, and it's fitting in the shop on the day that they buy it, but when they're long-distance runners, that becomes a problem, especially when they're running under heat? Dr Colin: 100%. Yes, I mean, fatigue is one of those things that wrecks everything. But at the end of the day, when you're not fatigued, and you're ready to take a pair of shoes, and you're trying it on, you don't know how the inside of your ankle is gonna rub against that shoe until you've spent 30, 40, 50k in it to really understand what's happening there. So the idea that something is going to ‘break in’, in quotation marks is something that I like to try to shy away from as much as I possibly can.  The biggest issue that we see from most people is they just fit them incorrectly, right? They fit them too short. And so if things do swell, if there's movement or any of that stuff, you're going to get problems along with the feet, whether it's friction and blisters or black toenails, or what have you. The length of that, and then especially the curve of the toes, makes such a big difference.  And so, a lot of footwear stores these days might not carry the full breadth of width available. And so for instance, New Balance comes in ladies from a 2A to a 2E and everything else in between.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Colin: So it comes in a 2A, and a B, and a D and then a 2E. So when you have to carry four widths of shoes from a size 5 to a size 13...  Lisa: That’s expensive.  Dr Colin: ...including half sizes, that's expensive. And that's only for one colour.  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Colin: Right? So when you think about that, you understand why you might not be able to find the full breadth of width in a lot of these things. Because shoe stores will have a hard time selling through and if they can't, they can't make money and stay open. So, but if you're one of those people that are on either end of the spectrum, then you need to find a place that will cater towards those kinds of things and that understand the nuances and the differences within brands. So, I mean I've seen people go up a full size in between different models of shoes within the same brand of a company.  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Colin: So, for instance, the New Balance 880 and the New Balance 840 fit completely different. The sock liner is three times as thick, the width is more, the toe spring is different, the heel drop is different, all of that stuff. And if you don't know how each one of those things interact with someone, then the potential for injury is just greater.  Lisa: Wow. And yes, I can definitely relate to that having had—I've had many different sponsorship agreements over my career. And some of the companies, a couple of them, I had to actually leave because I just could not wear their shoes and they were so different in other ones that I just absolutely loved and were able to stick with. And I've got a very wide foot. And so I have to be in a men’s shoe. But when I was doing desert races in extreme heat in Death Valley and the likes, I had shoes that were two sizes too big for me.  Dr Colin: Wow. Lisa: So, that's what I worked out was the sweet spot. So at that point, I wouldn't get the blisters and I wouldn't get the black toenails, and I wouldn't get the foot just swelling so much that it's boosting out the sides of the shoes and putting pressure on top of the foot and causing—and I've had it all awful shin problems by having that circulation cut off at the top of the foot.  I remember a race I did in Germany 338 kilometres in five days. So, we're doing 70 kilometres a day. And after day one, my shoes were just way too tight. And by then the damage was done. And an old-timer, who was in the race, said to me, ‘Hey, you need to cut your socks and open your shoes right up'. And that was a piece of advice that I carried with me being from the norm because, and I ended up doing that very often. So even something like a pair of socks that is too tight around the ankle can cause shin problems. I mean, I've experienced that firsthand, and on the top of the funnel as well. So it really makes a heck of a difference, isn't it? Dr Colin: Oh, it's so does and you know, when you're looking at the trail shoes and things like that, the choices become even more frustrating.  Lisa: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, let’s talk trail because what trail—we weren't as humans, like, we didn't evolve to run on concrete and pads. So what's your take on how bad is it to be running on roads and concrete versus the natural terrain of a trail so to speak? Dr Colin: Well, I mean, certainly the natural trait of a trail is going to be easier for you to run on versus concrete and asphalts and those types of things. And when we looked at the literature, and some of the research said that it's—there's been a lot of fun running research that's come out in the last 15 years. But a lot of our initial contact strategies, so whether you stride on your heel, your midfoot or your forefoot, a lot of it has to do with mitigating the force of that initial contact. And so if you're running on an incredibly hard surface, you might adapt to changing your initial contact to be able to mitigate those loads of that initial load.  Whereas when you have a softer, spongier service to do on, you have a bit more leeway to be able to stride in a different pattern. And so for people who are rehabbing from injuries, yes, getting into something that's a little bit spongier is certainly going to be more forgiving. Now, you can take that all the way to running on the beach, and that causing some problems as well just from the increased biomechanics that that causes too. So to get back to my point where moderation.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Colin: There's a time to spend time in the sand, and there's a time to spend time in the trail, and there's time to get on the road. Lisa: And this trend it transition times, like when the barefoot craze hurt when my friend Chris McDougall’s book came out Born to Run and it sort of revolutionised everybody's thinking was like, ‘We gotta go barefoot because Barefoot Ted was doing it’. And we saw a lot of injuries come out of that. And no, no, no detriment on the book. It was a fantastic book. But people just went too fast, too far too fast. And we really need a transition time if we wanting to go barefoot. Would you agree with that? Dr Colin: Oh, it's not a matter of me agreeing with it, that that's just a matter of scientific fact.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Colin: I mean, if you want to go from—which so I do agree with it. To that end, yes. There's nothing that's going to increase your risk of getting hurt more than taking off your footwear and going for a barefoot run. If you're used to wearing a maximalist style of shoe, taking it off going barefoot for 21K, you'll be lucky if you don't come back with a stress fracture. And certainly, my practice has been a mirror of that, right? I mean, at the end of the day, I see injured runners all day every day. That's what I do.  So, I like to joke that the greatest predictor of running injuries is running. But to that end, if you want to make these changes, I think they're great for people. And I think that they're able to make these changes in a proper informed way. And so even looking to what some of the scientific literature says they talk about a transition shoe specifically, right? If you're going to go from a regular 10 or 12 mil heel drop shoe to 4, 0, having a 6 to 8 mil transition shoe wouldn't be a bad idea.  There's one company that will remain nameless that when they changed all their heel heights from 12 mil to 8 mil, and no one really understood what that meant. I can't tell you the number of Achilles problems and things that came into the clinic two years after that.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Colin: Because making even that 4-millimetre change in someone who puts in 60 to 80 kilometres a week, and they're used to loading their tissues in a particular way when you all of a sudden change that with up to three times your bodyweight up to 10,000 steps, that's a huge change for your body all of a sudden. Lisa: Wow, that is insane. Just from a very small change. And look we all—lots of people just swap different shoes ‘Oh try those ones, or this time, I'll buy those’.  Dr Colin: Yes, exactly. Lisa: And so is it—and this is the other thing, brands keep changing. Dr Colin: Yes, every season. Lisa: ‘Ugh, damn. It's something new, it was perfect. And now it's gone again, I can't get it’.  Dr Colin: Yes. Lisa: So by a couple of pieces, when you do get something that's right.  Dr Colin: 100%. But even that, don't let them sit on the shelves for more than two years. Lisa: Oh, okay. Why is it? Do they degrade after that you sort of leave them?  Dr Colin: Actually the materials get stiff, the longer you leave them there. And so, that pair that felt really cushy a couple years ago, they let them sit for a couple of years, they're going to be harder...  Lisa: Oh, gosh. Dr Colin: ...when you take them out of the box.  Lisa: Oh, okay.  Dr Colin: So you can't just let them sit for years on the shelf. Lisa: And onto that note. How many kilometres? Like, how often should you be changing? I've always said between six and 800 kilometres max, what's your take on that? Is there a new science around that? Dr Colin: Science is interesting when it comes to that. I mean, there isn't a lot of actual hard science on that. The soft science of it is to look at the bottoms of your shoes and see. If you're a heavier person, at your initial contact, and I don't mean heavy, like actually just a larger BMI. But some people, my wife is a light woman but she sounds like she's going to come through the floor, two floors down when she walks. And so she'll wear out the outsole of a shoe much faster than somebody who strikes the ground a little bit lighter. And so if you look at the bottoms of your footwear and let's say you're only 400K into a pair of shoes, but there's an angle now where the lugs are totally sheared off one side, that shoe was now forcing you to walk that way. And it's not helping your biomechanics at all.  And so yes, I think as it—as a general rule, 6 to 800 kilometres is okay. But if you're not, if you're training on consecutive days, and if you're training in one pair of shoes, you're going to break down the EVA material much faster because that material needs about 36 hours to rebound fully, before it's ready to go again. But if you're training 24 hours, you're going to break down your shoe much faster. Lisa: Wow, that's a good point. I knew that. And I'd forgotten that fact. Thanks for reminding me of that because yes, alternating shoes on different days is something that I used to say, and I’ve forgotten completely about that one. So, that's a really good point. So, having a couple of pairs of shoes on the go, is a really, really good idea. Dr Colin: Yes, 100%. And to that end too we were talking about, with transition shoes, and whatnot, having them even a different heel heights for different types of running would also be great. I mean, so while you're doing a fartlek training, or tempo run, or a long day might be different than what your ratio is, or the all day everyday shoe. And so that little bit of variability, I think, is a really positive thing.  When you get locked into one movement pattern all the time, then your body comes to predict that. And if you can get that little bit of variability where you're lengthening some days, you're shortening some days, you're doing different things, and your body is used to that, then you're going to be more adaptive. But if you lock into that one pattern, it's going to be so much harder to change. Lisa: That seems to be the thing for everything in biology column. It seems to be a push and pull in a variety. You don't want to starve for too long, you don't want to eat too much for too long, you don't want to be too cold or in a thermoneutral zone for too long, you want—the body wants variety change. Not the same diet every day, not the same everything every day, and just by varying things up, we're giving our body a chance to get what it needs, and to have that variation—that push and pull that biology in all levels that I've been looking at seems to be cycling things. Cycling diet, cycling supplements, cycling shoes, cycling, changing in variety keeps the body guessing and keeps it changing, and keeps it so it doesn't go, ‘I've got this. And it's a piece of cake'.  Actually, I thought it just popped in my head. What do you think of Kipchoge shoes? The sub-two-hour marathon, the Nike shoes. Dr Colin: Oh, yes. Yes, I mean, wow, there—this is a fun time to be alive for nerds like myself. So yes, I mean, there's some really cool stuff that Nike’s doing in some of their footwear. And they're—I mean, one of the leaders. But I mean, everyone now is coming out with a carbon plated shoe, and really aggressive rockers, and a lot of this stuff from a performance standpoint. And it'll be interesting to see how it's controlled and how it's covered. And to what lengths can we go to be able to increase the performance of humans? We developed things like oxygen deprivation to be able to increase your red blood cell counts, to be able to increase your performance. Changes in footwear like this are not that dissimilar from that. It's just a question of, how much can we use them? And how does it work with you?  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Colin: Yes, and what's gonna be legal.  Lisa: And at the moment, it is, isn't it? Like it's...  Dr Colin: It is.  Lisa: Yes. And I had a friend, who's a holistic movement coach, I had on the show, actually, a few weeks ago talking about feet as well, the health of feet. And he said, ‘I didn't want to like those Kipchoge shoes', but I— because he's very much into barefoot when possible and developing strength in the feet. He said, ‘But I put’...  Dr Colin: Well, that certainly is the opposite.  Lisa: He said, ‘I have to admit, I run a hell of a lot faster when I'm soaked’. Dr Colin: Sure. Yes. But that comes back to the point of moderation, right? Is that there's a time for that shoe, just like there's a time to be barefoot. And it's using it in the appropriate fashion. Lisa: Wow, that's brilliant. And okay, let's talk about the knock-on effect of how the feet which have and you know this 100 times better than me, there's just a ton of nerves, a ton of bones as most complex structure that we have, the proprioception, and the connection between the brain is just so important that we actually have that neurofeedback from our feet. So, what sort of a fix do—what sort of things can we expect to have happen on a good side from proprioception when we're doing lots of activity? And we're doing lots of different movement types and varieties of training? And how does it help our brain? The brain-foot connection, I think, is what I'm trying to ask you here. Dr Colin: Well, I mean, anything that's going to make you more aware of what your foot’s doing in space is, again, only going to be a positive both from a balance and a performance perspective. It's striking to me that I can see some people perform incredible feats of athleticism, but then can't balance on one foot to do a pistol squat.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Colin: Do you know what I mean?  Lisa: Yes. Dr Colin: Because they just don't have control over their ankle. And so when people think of their feet, that's one thing. But I mean, the actual foot itself, though, those deep intrinsic layers of muscles are more stabilisers than they are prime movers, right? The prime movers are going to be higher up in the leg, and the tendons of those larger muscles in the leg support the ankle, right? They're the ones that are tibialis posterior, and the perennials and the things that actually wrap around the ankle. So it's a matter of looking at the lower leg holistically, not just the foot itself.  Yes, those little foot muscles are important. But I think oftentimes, some of the higher stuff up is overlooked as well as the actual prime movers and the actual real good stabilizers that way because those things are going to fatigue out relatively fast, and then you're left with the larger muscles to be able to do some of those things. But when you're not paying attention to one of those two, then you're going to get a mismatch in balance and performance. And so it's a matter of being able to look at more. It's about being able to use your abductor hallucis appropriately, being able to use all of those intrinsics to raise up your arch a bit and reduce some strain in your plantar fascia.  I would never go as far as saying you're going to change the structure of your foot by making your foot muscles strong, but certainly, you're going to get a better grip on the ground and you're going to be able to use your feet like feet and not just like a meat slab that hit the ground to be able to get to the next step. Lisa: Yes, is it a bit like if I was to go around with gloves all day, and I wouldn't have the dexterity that I would need to do typing and learn to play an instrument or anything like that. Is that what's happening with our shoes, when we’re in shoes all day, every day, we're just taking away that connection to the brain and the brain's ability to be able to make those subtle adjustments with those little tiny muscles doing their thing? Dr Colin: You can look at it two different ways, right? Because one might say that yes, if you're barefoot and you know you've got skin on the ground, you are going to get a different sensation than if you have sock and then something else between you and the ground. Right? There's just different feedback when it comes to it.  But to say that putting footwear on reduces your proprioception, or your sensation completely, is a bit of a misnomer. Because if you have something that's, let's say, a little bit squishier, and your foot’s moving around a bit more, well, that's also a signal to your brain too in terms of where to fire muscles, and how to fire muscles and using those muscles on top of it. So, I think we can go in both directions. And again, there is a time when it's going to be appropriate. And there's a time when you want to be barefoot and getting that sensory input in just a different fashion to say—because, at the end of the day, I just don't think it's realistic in the society that we live in that we're not going to be out of it completely.  Lisa: We don’t want to come from class, and you know... Dr Colin: And so yes. So it's a matter of figuring out how to do that, in a fashion that's most appropriate, given the circumstances that you find yourself in. Lisa: A bit of a left-field question and a bit of a non-scientific well, oh well, there's probably stuff coming out now. What's your take on having though the connection to Mother Earth and grounding? And that type of thing, and being in the dirt, so to speak, and having the actual contact with the earth? Is there anything to that side of things? Or is it just no scientific data really around that? Dr Colin: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, at the end of the day, and from a data and a science standpoint, I'm the first one to tell you that I'm not 100% up on that. Lisa: Yes.  Dr Colin: But I was listening to another podcast. It was Ben Greenfield recently.  Lisa: Yes, I like him. Dr Colin: Who was talking about some of—yes, yes, yes, same—as some of the science around that specifically. And I believe that there might be some science that has come out, I just haven't read it to be able to be up on it to be 100% honest with you. Lisa: Yes. I mean, I've heard various things and even like getting your hands on the dirt and gardening and how much of a good effect that can have on your body and your mind and your mood and things like that. Dr Colin: Yes. Lisa: And I mean, we are in science starting to actually see why is it important to go out and have early morning sunlight and circadian rhythms and all of these sorts of things...  Dr Colin: True, true. Lisa: ...and connection to the ground and the effects of the medicine, and I don't think we're there yet with all the science. But my take is—on that is yes, go out and spend 10 minutes a day with your hands and the dirt and connect with the ground. And if nothing, the being in nature is definitely going to calm you down and make you feel better.  Dr Colin: 100%. Lisa: Yes, so that's already, I think—okay, so just looking at some most common running injuries before we sort of wrap up the call. If we can look at like plantar fasciitis and perhaps Achilles and calf muscle injuries and perhaps knees. It's a picture you will cover in a few minutes, isn't it? If we want, the second podcast, Dr Colin. Dr Colin: Yes. We can do a podcast on each one of those actually. Lisa: Well, actually, I think I will be getting you on because your knowledge is next level. Dr Colin: Thank you. Lisa: So let's talk a little bit about say Achilles.  Dr Colin: Sure. Lisa: It's one of—it's a very common problem.  Dr Colin: It is. Yes, yes, it really, really is. And Achilles is a difficult one. Again, depending on where things are at and what we know, whether it's insertional, or midportion, there are definitely are two different protocols when it comes to it. So, from the physio side whether you do eccentric loading, which is raising up on two feet, lowering down on one or whether you're doing a different kind of strengthening programme that really is sort of the physio side of that end of it, where I tend to come in on that and where I tend to see a lot of Achilles injuries are people who wind up changing the drop of their shoe too quickly. And so they're used to running in something that's either too low or too high and then make it an abrupt sudden change, or they change their running style too quickly.  So, it's very common to see people who go—who are heel strikers who want to try forefoot running for the first time and if they do it improperly when you load the ground with your heel, I mean, yes, we know that if you overstride braking forces and everything else are really bad for you and smashing your heel into the ground might not be ideal for everybody.  But if you're running on your forefoot, you're striking, your initial contact is with your forefoot, then you touch your heel. Then you push off your forefoot again, right? So, one is heel midfoot toe, one is forefoot heel, forefoot. So, to that end, you're going through a much larger cycle of Achilles loading. And so for some people, especially who—if gene, you were talking about genetics earlier, we know that there is a genetic predisposition for some people, or Achilles issues specifically if you're one of those people, then that can certainly be a bad thing if you do it too quickly.  And so to that end, we talked about the very first thing we do is deload the Achilles. So using things like heel shoe, heel lifts, and footwear, to be able to, for a short period of time, take some of that load off the Achilles, allow it to heal and then gradually reloaded it as they've been working with their physio to be able to gain back strength and mobility and everything else. The one thing that I like to look at everybody who comes to my clinic because I think it's so incredibly important, is their ability to move their ankle appropriately because their calf musculature is flexible enough.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Colin: And I'll get into trouble there because some people say, ‘It's not coming from your calf, it's coming from your hip'. It can be coming from your hip certainly if you have things that are changing your pelvic tilt, and it's lengthening your hamstring, and it's doing that, and then you're getting the effect of change that comes with it, it's a matter of just looking at it to understand where that change is coming from. But any ankle restriction in your range of motion can make you use your Achilles in a different way, the simplest way for your body to compensate for that is to out-toe and pronate more, well, you're going to get a rotational stress on your Achilles, for some people that's just going to be too much combined with the kind of running programme that they're doing. And so one thing to think about for sure. Lisa: Wow, this is like, you're a foot specialist, but you also need to have a really good understanding of the whole anatomy of the body really, don't you? Because you have to be a holistic in your approach because, and then this is one of the issues that I have with the medical world in general, now speaking is that they’re so siloed. If you've got a lung problem, you go to the lung specialist, or the pulmonary, if you've got a heart and then the ear, nose and throat are separate, and yet it's to do with your lungs, like, we need to have a holistic ‘Look At It systems’ in the body or the—not even systems, but the entire body, so everybody has to have it.  Dr Colin: Yes. Lisa: And it's difficult because you have to have a specialised education in feet, you can't be an expert in feet and an expert in hips.  Dr Colin: Yes.  Lisa: But you do need a general education to be able to understand: what the roles of the other therapists or doctors or whatever it is in order to have a good understanding. And I think that holistic approach were possible, into sort of disciplinary communication, is really, really important. Would you agree with it? Dr Colin: Oh, that's the only way that I work is multi-disciplinary. And so if there's one specialist that thinks that they can fix everything, then that usually makes me want to run away screaming. And because there's just isn't enough flexibility in your thinking to understand that, maybe what you're doing won't be enough for somebody. And again, can't tell you the number of people that come in to say, ‘I've seen my ex-specialists who said, there's nothing else that can be done. We get them back running within six weeks'.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Colin: You know what I mean? It's only because we were flexible enough in our thinking to be able to say, ‘Yes, we're gonna change this little thing over here. That might be the thing that's going to get you back to what you want to be doing'. So, it’s so... Lisa: I could go in a rant on that, really. I could go on a rant about the amount of times that people have been told, ‘You can never run again'. I was told I would never run when I broke my back when I was a young lady. And that were wrong, 70,000 kilometres later.  Dr Colin: Yes. Lisa: If I'd lifted up to so-called experts who, with my mother who had a massive brain aneurysm five years ago and who said that initial, ‘You’ll never have any quality of life again’. She's got massive brain damage. They were wrong. I spent five years rehabilitating her, but they were wrong, and she's completely normal again. So, it's not just accepting—what I think is important to realise is the limitations of your knowledge and saying, ‘Hey, I don't know, I'm at the end of my abilities'. You might have to look somewhere else, or outside the square, or try something else to talk, to so and so.  Dr Colin: Yes. Lisa: And that's fine. That's good if we get there but not blanket saying, ‘Well, you can never run again because you've got a knee injury.’ The amount of times, amount of runners who have come on doctors said I should never run again because I've got some slight knee problems, and I was like, ‘Really?’ Dr Colin: Yes, no, I agree. So, a case in point in my own life, I have congenital arthritis. That's so bad. I had my first hip reconstruction at 17.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Colin: That left me with a four-centimetre leg length discrepancy. So I've got some real orthopaedic problems. And was racing mountain bikes at almost the pro-level in Canada in downhill at the time, and wanted to pursue that. And I was told, ‘Never ride a bike again', this kind of stuff. And I'll be doing a half Ironman in Muskoka in July...  Lisa: Wow. I love it.  Dr Colin: ...25 years later.  Lisa: Exactly.  Dr Colin: So, ye

In order to grow a business, a lot of people take interest in creating a podcast where they get to talk about their niche and promote their services. But what does it actually take to get started in developing a successful podcast channel? A common roadblock that people run into when starting their podcasts is a lack of specificity in what they are trying to get across. Today, WTR welcomes Colin Gray, founder of The Podcast Host (https://www.thepodcasthost.com/) . In this episode, we will discuss the tools that you can use to further your success in terms of podcasting. Ingenious tactics to accumulate wealth, for people who see things differently. Colin Gray Website: https://www.thePodcastHost.com (https://www.thepodcasthost.com/) Website: http://hostileworlds.net (http://hostileworlds.net/) LinkedIn: http://Uk.linkedin.com/in/colinmcgray (http://uk.linkedin.com/in/colinmcgray) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thepodcasthost (https://www.facebook.com/thepodcasthost) Twitter: http://twitter.com/thepodcasthost (http://twitter.com/thepodcasthost) YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/colinmcgray (https://www.youtube.com/user/colinmcgray) NOTES [00:26] Kevin: Today's we're joined by Colin Gray, founder of The Podcast Host [00:58] Today, we're going to be talking about podcasting to grow your business [01:03] Would you give our listeners a little background about where you came from and what inspired you to get to where you are today? [01:22] Colin: I was a teacher back in the day. I taught lectures how to use technology in their teachings [01:38] I was asked to learn how podcasting works so that I could teach it to the lectures [01:57] It's so personal; the attention is great (people can listen for a while) [02:48] Today, we teach people how to run a podcast [03:04] The whole aim is to make podcasting easy and to help anyone run their own podcast if they want [03:53] Kevin: Why do you think podcasting is so important for any business owner today? [03:58] Colin: The complaint I hear most often from people who want to start a podcast: how do I differentiate? How do I get more customers to find us? [04:26] In terms of blogs, it's hard for you to get your personality across (you have to be a really good writer to convey who you are as a person) [04:45] In terms of videos, you can start to get your personality across more so people can find out about you, but it's hard to make (a lot of technology needed and intimidation) [04:57] In terms of podcasts, it is a way that you can create some content that shows people your personality, why you're different from your competition, and it's really easy to make [05:15] Very personal (connect with people... trust building) [06:04] Attention (people listen for a long time) [08:24] Kevin: What would our listeners need to get started if they want to start a podcast channel? [08:31] Colin: You actually don't need a lot, you can start really simply [08:37] People procrastinate on starting their podcast (worrying about insignificant things) [08:48] You need really simple gear to get started so there's nothing stopping you from recording [09:02] USB microphone [11:00] The most important thing for your first 10-20 episodes is consistency [11:30] The easiest possible way is to literally press record on your smartphone and speaking into your phone if you have a decent smartphone [11:57] If you're using cheaper gear, make sure you're in a good environment for recording [13:24] There's something tangibly different about recording a practice episode you know will never be published and recording something that you know will be published [13:50] Don't worry about the quality of your episodes when you start, you'll eventually get better [14:06] Kevin: What kind of software do they need to get going? Colin: [14:12] Audacity is a free audio editor...

How do you find new listeners in a niche that traditionally isn’t overly technical? Also mentioned on this episode – our Podcast Scholarship Competition Matthew: Here’s a question that came in through the website thepodcasthost.com from Leslie. What if my target audience isn’t technical? What’s the starting point for this Colin? You’re maybe doing a […]Support the show (https://pod.academy)

Leaders, Bosses, & Bastards: [Episode Title]   In today’s episode, Colin and Mickey discuss culture change, a once “too soft” topic for business development that has become one of the greatest concerns for today’s senior executives. With the average life expectancy of a company quickly decreasing, leaders that encourage the reimagination of cultural identity are far better prepared to outlast their competitors. Colin and Mickey consider what handling culture change as a Leader, Boss, or Bastard looks like, and which one stands a chance at navigating the quickly changing landscape of business.   Highlights: Most senior leaders today are concerned about the fit between their culture and their strategy In the last 15 years, 52% of the Fortune 500 companies have disappeared The average life expectancy of a Fortune 500 company has dropped from 75 years in 1955 to 15 years today Think about organizations as ecosystems, not structures Culture change requires unlearning old habits that don’t serve our purpose for today Keep people evolving the question of “what do we all care about?”, and bring to that the courage and wisdom it takes to reimagine ourselves The future of competitive edge is going to be speed of learning, speed of reimagining, and speed of re-identifying The Bastard cultural change leader is all extrospective and not at all introspective, acting more often out of fear than malicious intent     The Evolution of Organizational Culture Change   1:31 Mickey: If I look at 10, 15 years ago, when we would bring up the issue of organizational culture, the majority of senior leaders in organizations would dismiss it as soft and they only wanted to talk about the hard business topics of PNL, balance sheet and cash flow. And yet today, in this last year or so, almost every senior executive we talk to has a concern about the fit between their culture and their strategy. What happened that has had this become permissible, even necessary to discuss today when 10 years ago it was dismissed as soft and inconsequential?   2:08 Colin: I think first of all, Mickey, many people saw culture as an enabler, so they would think strategy first, and then say, “well, what does our culture need to be like?” And so, therefore, culture didn’t get changed very much.   2:24 Colin: The cultural change stuff that I saw 10, 15, 20 years ago, was quite mechanical it was simplistic, and therefore, it didn’t work.   2:46 Colin: We’re now changing at such a rate, the acceleration, we’re about to be 7 billion people on the planet. We’ve never done that before. And so we are now in a very new way of being.   3:08 Colin: We are actually in a world that’s much more disturbed and disordered, if that’s the frame we have, than it was 10 years ago. And strategy alone just doesn’t cut it.   3:30 Mickey: One of the things that I read is that in the last 15 years, 52% of the Fortune 500 companies have disappeared. In 1955, the average life expectancy of a Fortune 500 company was 75 years. This year the average life expectancy of a Fortune 500 company is 15 years. What sense do you make of that inside of this interest in how culture is consequential for organizations?   4:08 Colin: Not only have you got that 52% figure, you’ve also got the reverse of that, which is that we are seeing companies begin in a garage, and within 2 or 3 years are worth a billion dollars. So, we’re also seeing upgrowth incredibly fast, and that is remarkable.   We’ve got to stop thinking about organizations as structures, and start thinking of them as ecosystems   4:35 Colin: If you think of an organization as a structure, you can kind of work out A + B = C and you can work out how to make that system work. Once you think about it as an ecosystem, there’s issues of tension and balance and synergies that really are way more difficult to think about and to manage if you want to be a leader.   4:58 Mickey: What are the most essential things a leader might care about if you’re thinking of this dynamic, ever evolving network of relationships that functions like and ecosystem, versus this hierarchal structure that stands still for a while so you can learn exactly how it works?   5:20 Colin: A leader actually has people understand what we all care about, and has people able to reimagine themselves, reimagine their organization, reinvent, reform, and that is an issue of identity, that is an issue of seeing myself in a different way.   The Importance of “Unlearning”   5:46 Colin: So the challenge of that for a leader is not only have you got to help people to learn what’s going outside as well as inside, what’s going on around us, you’ve also got to help people unlearn.   6:02 Colin: Learning is imperative. Unlearning, which is very different to leaving behind, is incredibly difficult. And therefore as a leader, to help people unlearn you have to deeply and profoundly care about them, you’ve got to know who they are, and you’ve got to give them help with what I would call the transition from who you are now to who you need to be, and that requires insight, it requires courage, and it requires wisdom.   Courage and wisdom: The two factors that make great cultures   6:40 Colin: To get courage and wisdom, you can only get it from experiences, you cannot learn those two things. And so what leaders do is they give them experiences that have them begin to discover their courage, discover their wisdom.   7:00 Colin: You have to have diversity. Diversity brings a diversity of wisdoms, and courages. And so you then get this rich melange of extraordinary cleverness that you can take into the future as it keeps being reinvented.   8:40 Mickey: It’s diversity is the source of intelligence and reimagining and strength and wisdom.   7:30 Mickey: It’s very unusual, in my experience, to have people consider that an act of leadership is continually evolving what do we all care about. So whatever “we” there is that explains the existence of a system, of a business, of a nonprofit, whatever it is, how does the evolution of our care call for reimagining ourselves, which is a different way to think than “fixing ourselves”? We have to reimagine ourselves and our enterprise in light of the evolving care.     Essentiality vs. False Simplicity   9:00 Colin: What we’ve tried to do in the past is we’ve tried to simplify. When we are feeling discomforted from the complexity in the world, we race for solution, we race for security, we race for certainty. Leaders need at this point in our time to actually reframe that chaos, reframe that disruption, and start to think about it as multiple sources of information, as multipolarity.   9:38 Colin: So now we’re making sense of the complexity rather than simplifying the complexity. And again that requires different perspectives, different wisdoms, different courages. A leader in that space has to be expansive.   9:56 Mickey: Now when people take a really complex environment and attempt to falsely simplify the solutions to its challenges, it actually is a recipe for deccelerating the evolution of the culture, or getting the culture to actually disintegrate, fall apart. And yet we do it because we’re so desperate to make sense out of everything.   10:20 Mickey: I think of it as a false simplicity, something that misses the real nature of what’s going on in the system and how all the different pieces are affecting each other in an interrelated way.   10:37 Mickey: There are a lot of people that say one of the hallmarks of elegance is simplicity, but that’s when you’re highlighting the absolute essential nature of something, not falsely eradicating the true challenges in a complex system.   11:04 Colin: I am all for essentiality. When you are in the turbulence of disorder, there’s got to be something that you can see that has you feel safe. And what we do know is that when we have complex disruptive systems and somebody comes with what you’ve beautifully described as kind of false simplicity, you get answers like “build a wall”. And what occurs of course is, if you don’t have a leader that cares, if I don’t feel like I’m in an organizational village that matters to me, I would jump for that solution because I am so uncomfortable I am desperate.   12:28 Mickey: That reimagining of ourselves, I think happens more naturally when the essential thing we all care about becomes magnetically clear, that people recognize its legitimacy and are attracted to it at the level of self.   A Lesson in Essentiality   12:44 Mickey: An example of a client who I think has done that with courage and wisdom, here in the United States, one of the big insurance companies is Humana, starting with Mike McCalister and his tenure before he retired and brilliantly brought forward by Bruce Brussard, who’s the CEO there today. They actually renamed the essential issue for the existence of the contribution of their company in the world.   13:18 Mickey: They had to organize Humana to help people achieve lifelong well being. They couldn’t just be a company that worked out paying claims for diseases when it seemed justified. That they needed to shift the whole way that they saw the role of their company in the world for them to have both commercial viability and social viability. And that is, “our job is to focus all of who we are on helping people achieve lifelong well being.” And I think that fits with a kind of essential wakeup call that can have an organization come together and begin to reimagine itself.   14:02 Colin: As human beings we’ve all gone through identity transitions. So we know we can do it. Somehow we want to make sure that we can still do those things inside organizations.   14:29 Colin: How do you unlearn your identity, how do you unlearn things? And you think about that Humana example, which is beautiful, what did the folks have to unlearn?   From continuous improvement to true innovation   14:48 Colin: The challenge of continuous improvement, as good as it can be, it doesn’t typically require unlearning around identity, and you in fact become self-absorbed in simply polishing what you’ve already been doing for a number of years, which in my view explains the 52% attrition rate you talked about in Fortune 500. They’ve lost the capacity to reimagine. And of course, if I’m not being well led, I can only define success in terms of my current identity and therefore I will do everything I can to hold onto the past and polish it to look like it’s new when it’s not.   16:20 Colin: That is a big challenge for many organizations who think that their intellectual property is their competitive edge. I don’t think that’s true any more. I think their competitive edge is going to be speed of learning, speed of reimagining, speed of re-identifying, and that’s why we’re seeing startups beginning in garages and becoming a billion dollars in 3 years. Because they are constantly reimagining, they’re constantly destroying their own intellectual property to find something new.   17:06 Mickey: We’ve always had respect for that saying, “It’s easier to ride a horse the direction in which it’s walking.” The world is going towards the rapid and unhindered sharing of information, and so if we don’t evolve consistent with the direction it’s going, that seems to lack the wisdom you were talking about earlier.   The Leader, the Boss, & the Bastard of Culture Change   17:26 Mickey: When you look at it from a Leader perspective, you said that the job is to keep people evolving the question of what do we all care about, and bring to that the courage and wisdom it takes to reimagine ourselves and that includes being able to unlearn those deeply embedded habits that have become so thoughtlessly identified with that it takes work to even see them, much less unlearn them.   17:58 Mickey: Our chance for being smart about those challenges going way up in the presence of diverse points of view equally respected for all of their different contributions. That allows us to be in this evolving ecosystem where we keep awakening to where the reimagining is called for now, rather than the Boss thing, which I think is more of the traditional approach where you get a project management office and a bunch of instructions that tells people, “you used to act like this, now you’re supposed to act like this, by the way, somebody changed the metrics and rewards and if y’all don’t act that way then we’ll find someone who can.” It’s a false simplification of the issue. It can be well meaning, but it’s mechanical. It does not fit with the nature of being human.   18:53 Mickey: The Bastard cultural change leader is all extrospective and not at all introspective. So the issues are all outside of her or himself. They completely get it, but the rest of us need to change, the markets need to change, the circumstances in the company need to change.   19:30 Mickey: What do they need to reimagine as a human being? What do they need to unlearn? That somehow never seems to be a topic.   19:54 Colin: The Leader is somebody who actually understands that this is a tough time and we’re in it together, and we’re taking time to reimagine ourselves. We’re not going to race, we’re going to do this very well, and then we’re going to accelerate beyond belief. So there’s always the possibility of surprising results.   Fear & the Bastard   10:18 Colin: I think there are many Bastards in our organizations who look like really nice people. They are so frightened that they are holding on to the past and repolishing it...and it actually makes people feel even more insecure, less valid, and lose all capacity to reimagine their identity and their organization.   20:48 Mickey: So you’re saying that Bastard may be more a function of fear than evil.   20:54 Colin: I think Bastard is typically all about fear. In fact, a Bastard in my experience has quite often got the shakiest of all identities. I don’t think there are many malicious people on the planet.

Connection isn’t just a convenient by-product of results. Rather, high levels of connection within an organization actually help shape the results. When people within a workplace feel a sense of community and the possibility to make a valuable contribution, the need for supervision and added accountability decreases. In this episode, Mickey and Colin begin with the question of how the quality of connection informs the outcomes and the methods needed to take along the way to get there. Highlights If a leader’s purpose is to liberate possibility in your organization, that’s borderline impossible unless you feel connected. Any time you find extraordinary performance, you find a sense of solidarity or connection. Supervision costs go down as connection goes up. Part of what makes us feel connected is when we understand and respect each other’s purposes, concerns, and circumstances. Connection is not just a good moral practice; it is an intelligent and highly practical way to achieve accelerated results. A method without purpose is just a fantasy. The tension between the purpose and results is what reveals a connected method. The Quality of Connection 0:13 Mickey: We’re talking about how the quality of connection shapes the quality of results. First of all, do you think that’s valid, and if so, what has you say that? 0:32 Colin: I used to define leadership as “a leader takes me somewhere I haven’t been before” and “a manager helps me do what I’m currently doing better.” I no longer think that’s a good definition of leadership. 0:51 Colin: In this world of disruption, emergence, prototyping, innovation, often the leader doesn’t quite know where we’re going yet. The act of leadership is an act of liberation—the liberation of spirit, energy, and emotions, with purpose and with some boundaries. 1:12 Colin: If a leader’s purpose is to liberate possibility in your organization, that’s borderline impossible unless you feel connected. If you are only concerned with results and winning—there’s nothing wrong with that, by the way—you’re not liberating anything. 1:47 Mickey: It starts out with a sense of something deeply human: being connected. When we research great performance, one of the things that people report over and over again is a sense of community: a group of people large or small who are in something together, shoulder-to-shoulder, and connecting emotionally. People really feel like it’s “we” doing something “we” are proud to do together. Any time you find extraordinary performance, you find a sense of solidarity or connection. 2:40 Mickey: Where people suffer and say the work is not worth it, always they’ll talk about feeling excluded, isolated, judged, something that has them feel like they are not a legitimate member of a larger whole. 2:56 Mickey: Ask yourself, is that the case when you think of some of your best, brightest, most enjoyable accomplishments, was there a sense of connection with people? And where disappointment loomed large, was there disconnection? 3:18 Mickey: When we look at the last thirty years of talking to people about the nature of great results, we keep seeing this. If you look at disconnection on one end of a spectrum and connection at the other, people producing results per unit of time, money, and stress are always ways on the end with connection. People who say the work is brutally hard, debilitating, and not worth it, they talk about disconnection. 3:52 Colin: Some years ago I was talking to a bunch of volunteer firefighters around the world. In Australia in particular, bush fires (you call them wildfires) are a challenge. The firefighters made truly extraordinary contributions, saved lives, and saved property. When you asked what was going on for them, some things become apparent really quickly. 4:31 Colin: The firefighters felt like they belonged; there was a connection, to the level that they didn’t even need to talk about accountability, because they trusted each other so much. The firefighters felt so connected that they knew someone had their back, which meant their capacity to make smart, brave choices brilliantly enhanced. 4:56 Colin: The leaders understood that this purposeful connection of being together meant that people just knew what to do. There was no need for lots of “role clarity.” Purposes, Concerns and Circumstances 5:27 Mickey: As you know, we’ve seen over the years working in hundreds of organizations in 150 countries that when people feel connected, there tend to be three ingredients in the connection. If I feel I can have the same trust in you that those firefighters had that enabled them to be this extraordinary team under extraordinary circumstances, I feel these three things. Part of what has me feel connected to you is that you understand and respect my purposes, my concerns, and my circumstances. 6:10 Mickey: Those three things are human, because we found them in all of these different languages, across all of these different countries, and different industries. They all feel like you understand and respect their purposes that they admitted to wanting to make happen, concerns of what they’re worried about and don’t want, and what their life is like; that’s when people feel connected. 6:39 Mickey: It’s not feeling sorry for people. No, it’s actually being aware of these ingredients of their lives: their commitments, their concerns, and their circumstances. Those firefighters had to have had a deep appreciation of those things for one another. 6:59 Mickey: Once you trust that we’re connected to those three aspects of life, suddenly we’re in something together. We start to say: “What are our purposes, our concerns, our circumstances?” People start to naturally care for their part of the larger whole. 7:20 Mickey: Something any new leader would be really wise to do—whether they’re a new supervisor or in a team or a new senior executive in a large enterprise—would be to really get interested in who the people are who count on the quality of hit or her contribution. Who are the people who are relying on, “I’m going to make a useful difference”? 8:00 Mickey: You first have to get a sense of what the network of people is that you are here to serve. Then, ask what are those people’s purposes, concerns and circumstances. This is deeply practical. The Cost of Over-Supervision 8:09 Mickey: You were talking in our last podcast about how there’s an economical justification for caring. Supervision costs go down as connection goes up. That shows up in the economics of a business. 8:26 Colin: I ask clients, “How much does supervision cost you?” You see this look of horror on their faces, because the first answer is, “I have no idea.” The moment you say, “What might it look like if you cut the cost of supervision by 30%? What else might those people be doing?” The potential for change is massive—another act of liberation, if you think about it. 9:05 Mickey: Just think what the costs are of the positions that have some significant portion of their time dedicated to just watching other people work. I’m not saying there’s not some necessity—there’s an aspect of connection there and seeing the whole system well enough to help the rest of us be connected to the different parts of it. However, there’s a whole lot of checking that would be unnecessary if people were completely connected to where we’re headed together. 9:39 Mickey: They know what their piece of the contribution is, and we trust each other to take care of our part of the contribution. This ethic of connection is intelligent—it’s not just morally preferred. 9:48 Mickey: When we are connected to each other and the thing we are mutually serving, we use fewer resources it takes to make it happen. There’s something innately attractive to people about coming together to make something happen. But the if the “coming together” part is weak, and you’re still trying to instruct people to make it happen, your costs go up. 10:18 Colin: How the hell does a CEO of a 45,000-person company help people become better connected? Because I know your answer isn’t going to be, “Get the Communication Department to do it for you.” I also know that while we love the idea of a token “walkabout” throughout the company, “G’day, how are you” and all of that. That isn’t the way to connect people. What would your counsel be to this CEO? 10:58 Mickey: The first question I would ask is one that I’d recommend they take on in every venue they’re in the first sixth months of their tenure. “What do you need from me, without which you can’t succeed?” 11:16 Mickey: Ask that of your direct reports. Ask that in much larger groups. Let people know that you are looking at how to design the deployment of you to the best of their advantage. Just having that as an abiding concern and continue to gather information about will be a source of connectivity. 11:44 Mickey: Then you sponsor other people, asking the question in their place. A question that can occur to people as arrogant but is actually deeply humble is, “What can only I provide that the people around me need?” 12:04 Mickey: I’ve had some people say, “What if there’s nothing?” Well, then I question the need for your job. There must be something uniquely important in what you do. In the context of what other people need in order to succeed, it causes a natural inquiry into the practicality and benefit of being connected. Purpose, Method and Results 12:27 Colin: Let’s go to the other side of this. The quality of connection is what shapes extraordinary results. Sometimes people think the results are just a consequence. But it strikes me that results actually help people get connected. When we’re looking for that surprising moment that is part of a result, it’s actually a dance between connection and results; it’s not that one creates the other. 13:03 Mickey: In terms of connectivity, all of this can sound strangely simplistic. There is a journey from purpose to results, and what maintains the journey in the middle is the method. At the purpose level, it’s why we care and for what important reason we do what we do. What is the whole calling for us to even be in action? The result is the measurable evidence of the difference we intend to make. The tension between the purpose and results is what reveals a connected method. 13:53 Mickey: A mistake that a lot of leaders make is they think method is the source of connectivity; however, if you don’t go back to purpose, what is it that holds together in community in the domain of why we should care. What is our reason for doing this? If you don’t have purpose, then the adherence to method is rote. Not paying attention to purpose dishonors the deep love people having for being in something together to make a worthy difference. 14:52 Mickey: You need all three (purpose, method, results) to make a difference. We need the important reason we are in action. We need some measurable evidence of having made the difference we intended to make. Then let that tension help us arrive at a method that’s appropriate to that purpose and those results. Method without purpose is a fantasy of connection, and actually a recipe for disconnection. Engagement and Connection 15:04 Colin: I am increasingly disillusioned with measuring engagement. Often we measure engagement, thinking there is connectivity. Engagement surveys often give interesting and important data, but being engaged and being connected aren’t actually the same thing. 15:32 Mickey: How do you differentiate the two? 15:34 Colin: You can come into a workplace and be engaged and love the piece you work on, and that’s it. But that doesn’t necessarily mean you are connected to the whole of the system and the community, enabling you to be cleverer together than apart. 16:00 Mickey: So you could be deeply engaged in your particular, individual work and find that gratifying and interesting. But there’s another order of engagement called “connected engagement,” where not only are you engaged in your own work but seeing how it contributes to all kinds of other people’s work. What you do ends up rippling into a network of contributions and helps other people get done what they have to get done. 16:31 Mickey: Connected engagement is the ongoing appreciation of the network of giving and getting in a community trying to do something really great together. You keep being conscious of what you got, what that allowed you to give, and what it allows other people to give. 16:53 Mickey: One reason I like what you said about getting disheartened with the notion of engagement is that we’ve lost the vitality of the notion. Engagement has become something to measure and how much money you spend on engagement and whether all of that measuring has changed it. When we measure, we lose the source of engagement. 17:18 Mickey: Where people are deeply connected to their reason for working, they’re deeply connected to the community of people they’re working with, and they have a line of sight to how they’re going to produce amazing results so it’s not all a leap of faith. Engagement will naturally be high, because you have a community of people making meaningful differences they enthusiastically choose to make. I promise scores will be high. 17:50 Colin: In fact, you don’t even need to do the scoring because you’ll see the manifestation of the difference they’re making in the results. 17:58 Mickey: That’s right. A lot of times people start to measure engagement as a way to understand why things aren’t going as well as they would like them to go. 18:04 Colin: A lot of measuring is not badly intended; it’s well intended. The sense is that that they don’t feel like they have engaged people in the workplace, so they’re trying to figure out what is going on. But they’re not often looking in the right place. 18:22 Colin: Notice connection and what you’re causing by connection, even in your next meeting. Ask these questions: “How well connected are we as we begin this meeting? How connected are we as we finish this meeting?” 18:42 Colin: Next time we talk, I’d be interested to explore the promises are that a connected leader needs to make for people to want to be connected. 19:10 Mickey: Being a connected leader does require conscious attention. As part of our conversation next time, we can look at what it is that pulls for disconnection that is in the natural design of being human that we have to be conscious of and respectful of to cause a connection that is more powerful. What connection holds us together when fear and worry and looming rips us apart? 19:43 Mickey: We can get to that through what you just said: acknowledging the promises that we must consciously make and keep in order to have connection be a bigger influence. 19:56 Colin: We certainly hope you feel more connected than you did before the beginning and that we’ve spoken to your purpose, concerns, and circumstances.

Leaders, bosses, and bastards: we all know them, we’ve been them, and we’ve probably been all three at some point in each of our lives. What sets a leader apart from a boss or a bastard? Mickey and Colin dive into the distinguishing pair of features that lead in conjunction with one another: care and sense of direction—neither should be mutually exclusive and both can result in extraordinary economic value. Highlights The labels “leader,” “boss” and “bastard” are triggering across cultures, because you’ve met all three and it’s possible for each of us to be all three at the same time. The connection we have with one another affects both the enjoyment and the productivity of work. It’s economically rational to care. It actually saves time. In terms of business results, caring creates extraordinary value. People don’t fear change; people fear failure. People are not fatigued with change. They’re fatigued with badly organized and designed change. When people feel endangered it is often because they believe people in leadership don’t understand their situation. They begin to question the direction of the organization. Care is not “touchy-feely.” Care is noticing where the organization might risk squandering a chance to profit from the talents of its people and addressing it in a timely way. To move from bastard to leader, change your focus from deciding that everyone should see what you see and think understanding that everyone has different things to give. If you care enough to cause the connections that allow the organization as a whole to build a bridge together, you will produce a measurable impact with less time, money, and stress. The Origin of Leaders, Bosses and Bastards 0:06 Colin: Thanks for joining us. “Leaders, Bosses and Bastards,” are you Americans so rude? 0:16 Mickey: We are, in many parts of the United States, masters of rudeness. In other places, we are much more decorous. But I think everybody has something get triggered when you hear those three words: leaders, bosses, and bastards. Ah, I have known them all. 0:37 Colin: Have you been them all? 0:39 Mickey: It’s early in this. I didn’t want to get to the self-flagellation so quickly. Yes, there is evidence and there are many people who could testify that I have been all three. And you, sir, have you found yourself leader, boss and bastard, or are you somehow more cleansed? 1:01 Colin: Well, I like to live in denial, but I think of course it could be said. It’s interesting, but the phrase is the truth of many of our experiences as being led by some people. 1:21 Colin: I was really fortunate to be part of a really significant study in the early nineties. Here in Australia we went to look at organizations and why people would want to do more than the normal and breakout, with a really smart guy called John Evans. When subjects talked informally about what leadership was like around them, those words came up again and again and again, as if they were truth. 1:48 Colin: I began to realize, the words were true. There’s something about them that spoke to everybody. I loved it from that point: that you could categorize people, and once you really get underneath it, play with what it’s about. What makes a leader, what makes a boss, what makes a bastard and what’s the differentiation? The confronting reality is that you can be all three. 2:15 Mickey: There’s something to revere about images that seem to resonate across cultures, across time, across generations, because they are a window to something truthful. When so many different people laughed, they had this smile of recognition, followed by some painful reminiscence when they kept hearing those words or same them for themselves. 2:44 Mickey: That’s what opened the window to: if this is so reliably a trigger, what’s the truth of that? How does it work? What has somebody show up as a leader in my life–somebody who I’m grateful for and we’ve gotten to a place where we might not have otherwise arrived at? 3:06 Mickey: Or a boss–somebody who seems rich with instruction. Or a bastard–somebody who I can’t tell cares a whole lot. 3:17 Colin: Well, they care about themselves, quite often. It’s careless, it’s not all that altruistic. 3:23 Colin: The other thing too as I began to pay attention to this language and this notion, which on one level does sound so unsophisticated, the more I looked at it, I thought, “There is some depth here.” A leader could be a bastard for one person, a boss for another person, and a leader for somebody else. You could actually be a leader, boss and bastard at exactly the same time, for different kinds of people. 3:59 Colin: That starts to do your head in, when you start to think about how you can become better at leading and less a bastard. The Art of Connection 4:06 Mickey: That brings us to the reason we even care about this “Leaders, Bosses and Bastards.” It’s a large, lifelong, pretty-darn-rich-so-far investigation into how the connection we have with one another affects both the enjoyment and the productivity of work. 4:36 Mickey: It could be all three, because I could be well connected to you, distracted and semi-connected to somebody else, and completely disconnected from a third. Do the same thing, and that difference in connection gives me radically difference results. 4:54 Mickey: One of the things I hope we get to with some enjoyment and a little rigor is, “How do you keep managing that quality of connection?” so I’m not accidentally a bastard when I thought I felt so “leaderly.” 5:20 Mickey: If you ask people, “Who was someone in your life who made an enduring difference? Whether they would call themselves a leader, you know they provided something that was a leading edge for your life that you still thrive on today.” Some of the things we’ve arrived at that create leader, boss or bastard, they report. 5:53 Mickey: Because this is so resonant, so archetypical, and it seems to get the attention of a lot of different people, you and people you respect looked into what explains that these archetypes seem to resonate so quickly. The Balanced Need for Direction and Care 6:13 Mickey: You got to something I find to be both simple and really productive. What organizes our thinking to be able to tell, “Am I occupied in the bastard spot, boss spot or leader spot at a given moment, with a given set of people?” 6:40 Colin: Where you saw a leader who had a sense of direction, a sense of movement, and where we’re going, but was disconnected at the heart level, the care level, people were interested in the direction but were still observers of the direction rather than participants. 7:18 Mickey: Also, tentative about the direction. They respected it, it made sense, but they didn’t find themselves wholeheartedly pulled into it. 7:28 Colin: That’s what I call a good boss–a kind hearted he or she who’s thought that out; however, when we saw a boss who actually understood “who I was”–not just what I could contribute–the need for detail on that sense of direction could be a lot less. 8:00 Colin: When you think about that given the world we’re in, into prototyping and emergence where there often isn’t the detail, with sufficient and the right kind of connection or care, you can live inside that complexity and keep moving and enjoy it as best you can. The boss just needed a shift of adding care into the equation. 8:29 Colin: In other words, it’s economically rational to care. It actually saves time. It’s not some touchy-feely crap that nice people do. Just in business results terms, caring creates extraordinary value. 8:58 Mickey: There’s something innately human and needed about being connected as human beings who deserve to be heard and understood. That’s in this care domain. And in that other domain you talked about, there is this sense of direction, of destination, and some notion of how we might get there–not all laid out in perfect detail, because as you said, we go through these cycles of discovery and we can fill out our plan as we live our way toward it. But all care with no semi-pragmatic understanding of how we might get there, that can cause damage too. 9:50 Colin: When we first began playing with this notion, we had four categories, which were: leader, boss, bastard and silly old bastard. What you just described is a “silly old bastard,” which is the person who cares with no sense of direction. In the end, that decays. You get dithering, paternalism, and there’s no growing up occurring. 10:22 Colin: The sense of direction without any sense of care, that’s boss-like. You can’t fault it in the sense of direction, but you don’t liberate the capacity to live inside complexity. All care without direction is dithering and patronizing. In the end, you want to go somewhere else because you want to make a contribution. 10:50 Colin: We know from your research, if there’s not a place for me to make a contribution, then I’m actually tired and withdrawn. Looking Forward with Care and Destination 11:03 Mickey: In the work we’ve done with senior leaders using horses, one of the early things we want them interested in is to care about what it’s like for the horse. You have to learn to speak “horse” and how the horse processes information, thinks, and feels. That’s the care part of the equation. Early on, people are enamored with how if they connect well with the horse that way, the horse actually becomes less resistant and more cooperative. 11:49 Mickey: The next thing we add in is to create something to do with the horse. The earliest thing we do is to have somebody take the horse away from the herd and have them walk to a distant tree. What would happen is these people who were all caught up with feeling for the horse would start looking down on their horse. What would happen? The horse would stop. All you have to do is lift your head up and look at the tree, and the horse can feel the sense of direction and destination. 12:31 Mickey: Now you have those two together: care for the animal and a bridge to your destination. Fear of Failure, Not Fear of Change 12:42 Colin: What does that look like in strategy terms? Let’s take it inside an organization, because I don’t think everybody wants to think of themselves as a horse. 12:55 Mickey: I think of it mostly when there’s change in an organization, when you get new senior leadership coming in, a new CEO, chairman of the board, other significant leadership turnover, or when there’s a major divestiture, an acquisition, or merger. When there’s significant change in a business both direction and care come to the fore. A lot of people say that people fear change, but I haven’t found that to be the case. People fear failure. 13:33 Mickey: If the change threatens their ability to make a useful difference and be valuable, people get very resistant. If you want people to thrive in the face of change, they need people who care about what it’s like for them to go through it, and they also need something to contribute to. 13:55 Mickey: Maybe in the early days we don’t know the next three years, strategically; however, we do know we have to integrate our IT systems, we do know we have two completely different and incompatible management systems, etc. There are some things we do know. Let’s take those on and we are going to in the next 90 days take the best from each and build our new system. 14:32 Mickey: Treating people with dignity (that’s the “care” aspect) and giving them a job to take care of (the new system) gives them momentum and a chance to make a difference. In that, you discover a lot about the future. 14:48 Mickey: Almost all strategy now is emerging. It’s not known ten years out, but we always do know something. If you give people that destination, but they don’t sense you care about creating an opportunity for them to contribute to, you drop the care part. If you get people together and tell them how much you feel for them going through the tumult and change, but you don’t give them some place to go to, then you’ve lost the bridge. There are just cycles of that. We do what we need to meet the known objective and let what we learn keep illuminating what the strategic opportunities are. 15:36 Colin: You just alerted to something else that sits inside of that. And I agree with you; I hear a lot of people say, “Our people are change-fatigued.” And I don’t think people are fatigued with change. They’re fatigued with badly organized and designed change. Transformation, done well, can be invigorating and enjoyable. And it can be tiring, but name one thing in your life that you’ve felt good at that hasn’t been a little bit of exhaustion. Why Followers Seek Answers about Direction 16:15 Colin: And the reverse is true in thinking about it from the other side. If you’re taking care of leading people and you’re getting lots of questions about detail, that’s also a signal of insufficient care. 16:32 Colin: The number of times I get asked, “Can you come and help us with role clarity?” But when I hear that again and again, the first place I look is not is there insufficient information, but is there lack of care causing that request. 16:50 Colin: It’s very difficult to ask for care. You can only ask for information, for clarity of direction. So the asking for care can come in the form of “I want more information.” 17:10 Mickey: This notion of care deserves more than just shallow consideration. It’s not just the personal and emotional concern for another human. It’s also concern for the situation they’re in. If people don’t think that I really understand what they’re in, how it works, what its opportunities are, what its risks are, they experience that as a lack of care and it will have them feel like they’re in danger. They’re endangered because someone who has power doesn’t understand their situation. 17:47 Mickey: That will have me ask questions. I want assurances about how the future is going to go, because I can’t count on you to know what I’m actually in, so maybe you can give me more detail on where we’re going. Care is caring about the conditions, the circumstances, and the people who occupy those. 18:08 Mickey: It’s amazingly inconsistent with the nature of being human, to act like clarifying the plan can in any way make up for having a connection with people in which they feel respected, included, and regarded. 18:38 Mickey: People are also constantly looking for “what’s the path forward?” We need both. We need care and the destination. We need the path and care for the people who are trodding the path. Care and Confrontation 18:57 Colin: It’s an interesting challenge here, because care is scary. You can read books, you can work out how to use Gantt charts and all of that, but the care thing can be confronting. 19:16 Colin: “I’m introverted. I’m not someone who has high emotion. Does that mean I’m never going to be a leader? Is it impossible because I don’t have those things?” We’re not asking we become teddy bears, are we? No, in fact care can be confronting. 19:30 Mickey: Three months ago, I saw a relatively new CEO, who is in his first six months. The question is, “Who’s actually running this company going forward?” Some people were going to leave and some people were going to stay. 19:57 Mickey: There was someone that the CEO thought was really talented and had a whole lot to give and he was getting in his own way with his apparent disregard for view of others. Intellectually brilliant and he keeps occurring to other people on the executive team that if they ever say anything inconsistent with his point of view that he’s disinterested. 20:32 Mickey: The CEO sat him down, in an act of care, and he said, “There are two things I want you to know: you’re one of the more talented people whom I’ve met in my thirty year career; and you are one of the people most at risk of not making it through the transition of this company. I want us to talk about that, because if you don’t make it through, it will be us squandering a chance to profit from your really unusual talents.” 21:13 Colin: That is a beautiful act of care. That’s not “touchy-feely, blah blah.” No, this is about 21:28 Mickey: It’s not to be shallowly understood, this notion of care. And also, what you said earlier about change—it’s so difficult to discuss change because there are so many hackneyed things said about it. There is no question that life itself is dynamic, and just about the time I think I’ve got it all together and things are working brilliantly and beautifully, something in the conditions changes. 22:10 Mickey: We know that life is dynamic; it’s constantly moving. Do we help people profit from that movement, actually enjoy that movement, keep discovering new things we can do given the movement? It takes both–care and bridge–to be able to do that. If you don’t have both, you end up having people who don’t engage in the change as a chance to make an even bigger difference. 22:41 Mickey: Organizational revolution is an act of desperation for people who are bad at evolution. What you said hit me—this care and bridge duality is important to be able to lead evolving enterprise. No Care, No Bridge, All Bastard 23:03 Colin: Let’s take this thing with bastards: I say “bastard” and others say, “b—.” Bastard is the identity and act of no care and no bridge. 23:17 Mickey: There are people who get trapped in a way of being that is demand without care or bridge. Usually the way you find out what is important to that person is after you do something wrong in their eyes; you lack that information ahead of time, so you are constantly in danger of being a disappointment. 23:54 Mickey: A bastard is a person who has their own ideals and notions of what great looks like, but they don’t actually do the work to work with people. If they did, those would be shared ideals, which would be an act of care. And they don’t do the work to have a sense of the journey and know if they’re going to be on that journey with others, it will be shared. “No, I’m just going to sit over here, with my right to judge.” 24:27 Colin: I used to report to a CEO who I think fits pretty much in this category. In many ways this person was good at care and actually was brilliant at seeing the future, but was very inconsistent, around the “care” piece particularly. 24:54 Colin: I began to know this person was a bastard and I didn’t want to be there anymore, because he would walk into a meeting and the first thing that would go through my head was, “I hope he’s had a good day.” The moment that’s gone through your head, what is the capacity for anyone else in that room to be brilliant, smart, brave, connected? Zero. 25:14 Colin: He was only connected to his own circumstances and fears. 25:19 Mickey: There are a lot of people who occur as bastards, who in their own minds just think of themselves as having very high standards. Frequently, it’s people who don’t stop and consider that maybe they have some abilities that are unique to them. Making a Measurable Impact as Leaders Rather than decide we should all see what they see and think what they think, maybe understand we all have different things to give. If you care enough to cause the connections that allow us to build the bridge together, we could produce some amazing things. 26:01 Mickey: That’s what I care about as we go forward in our podcast. The thing that we’ve both lived our way to caring about is proving you can produce bigger results faster but managing both care and direction. 26:29 Mickey: I like what you said about the economics of care. Caring actually has economic benefit, as does helping people clarify the bridge to where you’re going. This is about making a measurable impact and doing it with less time, money, and stress than a boss or a bastard. 27:00 Mickey: What’s the leader doing? Getting a lot more done with less time money and stress— 27:05 Colin: —for themselves, as well as for others. And if they happen to have a family, it will include their family, by the way. There’s a whole lot here about wellbeing that we don’t even want to get into today. Please email info@conversant.com for questions or feedback