Podcasts about lisa it

Selling to corporate clients can be exciting, and sometimes daunting. And everyone wants to know…what's the secret sauce? From the thrill of landing big contracts to the unexpected surprises that come with corporate red tape, we cover it all. You'll hear about the challenges of finding the right decision-makers, the complexities of procurement processes, and the importance of pricing your services appropriately to account for those hidden costs. We also discuss the potential rewards of working with corporate clients, like the opportunity for repeat business and the chance to make a significant impact on a large scale. Plus, we share tips on how to leverage your unique strengths and experiences to connect with corporate teams effectively. So, if you're considering selling to corporate clients or just want to learn more about what it takes, this episode is packed with valuable insights and a few laughs along the way!

Thinking about offering group coaching programs? This episode is for you!   We explore the many benefits it offers – for those being coached and also for coaches themselves. Things like opportunities for support and feedback, profitability and scalability, and developing deep, lasting friendships.   We also share a few different program structures we've tried, and the impact we've seen. If you're curious about how group coaching can benefit your organization, or if you're a coach looking to expand your offerings, tune in to this episode!

In this episode of Behind the Genes, we explore how ethical preparedness can offer a more compassionate and collaborative approach to genomic medicine. Drawing on insights from the EPPiGen Project, our guests discuss how creative storytelling methods, like poetry, have helped families and professionals navigate the complex emotional, ethical and practical realities of genomics. Our guests reflect on the power of involving patients and families as equal partners in research, and how this can lead to more inclusive, empathetic, and effective care. The conversation explores how ethics can be a tool for support, not just regulation, and how creating space for people to share their stories can have a lasting impact on healthcare delivery. Our host for this episode, Dr Natalie Banner, Director of Ethics at Genomics England is joined by Professor Bobbie Farsides, Professor of Clinical and Biomedical Ethics and Dr Richard Gorman, Senior Research Fellow, both at Brighton and Sussex Medical School, and Paul Arvidson, member of the Genomics England Participant Panel and the Dad's Representative for SWAN UK. Paul shares his poem 'Tap tap tap' from the Helix of Love poetry book and we also hear from Lisa Beaton and Jo Wright, both members of the Participant Panel. "The project gave us the tools to find a different way to get at all of those things inside of all of us who were going through that experience... It's almost like a different lens or a different filter to give us a way to look at all those things, almost like a magnifying lens; you can either hold it really close to your eye and it gives you like a blurry view of the world that goes on and you can relax behind that and find a way to explore things in a funny way or an interesting way, but you can also go really close into the subject and then you've got to deal with the things that are painful and the things that are difficult and the things that have had an impact." You can download the transcript, or read it below. Natalie: Welcome to Behind the Genes. Bobbie: In an earlier conversation with Paul, he used the word ‘extractive,' and he said that he's been involved in research before, and looking back on it he had felt at times it could be a little bit extractive. You come in, you ask questions, you take the data away and analyse it, and it might only be by chance that the participants ever know what became of things next. One of the real principles of this project was always going to be co-production and true collaboration with our participants. Our participants now have a variety of ways in which they can transport their voices into spaces that they previously found maybe alienating, challenging, and not particularly welcoming. Natalie: My name is Natalie Banner, I'm the Director of Ethics at Genomics England and your host on today's episode of Behind the Genes. Today I'll be joined by Paul Arvidson, a member of the participant panel at Genomics England, Professor Bobbie Farsides, Professor of Clinical and Biomedical Ethics at Brighton and Sussex Medical School, and Dr Rich Gorman, Senior Research Fellow, also at Bright and Sussex Medical School.  Today, we'll be exploring the ethical preparedness in genomic medicine or EPPiGen Project. This project examined how the promise and challenges of genomic medicine are understood and experienced by the people at the heart of it, both the clinicians providing care and the patients and families involved.  A big part of the EPPiGen Project explored using creative methods of storytelling and poetry to explore the experiences of parents of children with rare genetic conditions.  We'll discuss why the idea of ethical preparedness is crucial in genomic medicine to acknowledge the challenges and uncertainties that often accompany the search for knowledge and treatment in genomic healthcare, and to help professionals develop the skills to navigate the complex ethical considerations.    If you enjoy today's episode we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us wherever you listen to your podcasts. Is there a guest you'd really like to hear on a future episode?  Get in touch at podcast@genomicsengland.co.uk. So, I'm going to ask our fantastic guests to introduce themselves.  Paul, would you like to go first? Paul: Hi, I'm Paul Arvidson. As well as my Genomics England hat, I've got a SWAN hat as well, I'm the dads' rep for SWAN UK, and I'm on the poets from the EPPiGen Project.  Natalie: Brilliant to have you hear today. Thanks, Paul. Rich?  Rich: Hi, I'm Rich Gorman, I'm a Senior Research Fellow at Brighton and Sussex Medical School and I've been working on some of the research on the EPPiGen Project that looks at people's social and ethical experiences of genomic medicine, and particularly families' lived experiences of genomics.  Natalie: Brilliant. Really looking forward to hearing from you. And Bobbie?  Bobbie: Hello, I'm Bobbie Farsides, I'm Professor of Clinical and Biomedical Ethics at Brighton and Sussex Medical School and co-PI with Professor Anneke Lucasson of the Wellcome Trust funded EPPiGen Project, and it's been my pleasure and privilege to be involved in the work that we're going to talk about today.  Natalie: Really fantastic to have the 3 of you here today. So, we're going to take a slightly unusual approach to starting the podcast today and we're going to begin with Paul who's going to read us a poem from the book Helix of Love. Paul, over to you.  Paul: This is called Tap, Tap, Tap.  ‘Tap, tap, tap, I hold the egg to my ear. There it is again, tap, tap, tap. Run to get a torch and light through the shell, to see who's tapping from within. Chicken's home from work these days just for fun and the odd egg. Market stalls swapped for medicines, cash boxes for cough machines. We kept the apron though. Profound learning disability is our life now, most of it, learning about it, learning from it, surviving with it, despite. It's a subtle egg though, this. The shell is there, invisible, but there's a person inside, tap, tap, tap.  What are you trying to tell us about what the world's like for you? Are you bored? Do you hurt? Is your sister a love or a pain? Tap, tap, tap. I wish I could set you free.'  Natalie: Thank you, Paul. Such beautiful and powerful words. I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about that poem and your journey and maybe touch on what the EPPiGen Project has meant for you.  Paul: Wow, that's a lot to unpack in one go. I suppose the oddness of the metaphor is probably worth a mention. The way the project worked is that Bobbie and Rich collected together a proper poet, Dawn Gorman, and she led us through the process of kind of, she basically taught us all to be poets from scratch, it was… When you say it like that it was a hugely audacious project really to just collect all these randoms together in a room and throw a poet at them and see what happened.   And they trusted us, I suppose, and trusted Dawn that there was going to be something came out of this. But one of Dawn's techniques was that like each week we did… I think we did… Did we do 6 weeks, chaps? Which felt like a huge amount of time, but it went in milliseconds. But what she did every week was that she gave us either a poetic form to work with, like, you know, “This week we're going to learn how to do a haiku, or a sonnet,” or whatever, or she'd gone away and thought of a particular poem that she thought might resonate with us and then she'd bring that to the session. And she'd read a poem out and then say, “Right, what did you make of this? Go away and write what it inspires you to write.”    So, the poem that I wrote was, the inspiration for that session was a poem called The Egg by Richard Skinner. His poem was more about the form of the object itself, so, although that sounds really abstract, it really, really helped. So, every week it would be like Dawn threw this object into the group and said, “Right, okay, here's your new prompt, bosh, off you go.” And although that sounds like the most obscure way to deal with anything, because you get a structure around which to organise your thoughts it was just this like hugely powerful thing for everybody.    And so, the thing that came to mind for me was the metaphor of the egg rather than the egg itself and it just kind of chimed with all of us. Like we used to run the egg stall in Minehead farmers' market and so, I married into a country girl and so she had like 200 laying hens at one point, and so we had this whole market stall antics but also it spoke to so many things in one hit. So we gave up that part of our lives as our daughter Nenah's condition became more and more complex.    She was always, once we knew what her genetic condition was one of the few things that we knew from the get-go was that it was progressive. So we knew in advance that that was the case, but we didn't know what that meant. And so slowly but surely one of the things we had to do was give up our working life, you know, one week and one hour at a time, it felt. So part of the poem's about that as well, the shift in the poem from the comedy bit to the beginning to the more serious bits at the end, and it kind of felt like we gave those things up day by day but the poem kind of got to speak to that.   And then there's also the metaphor. Once you've got a good metaphor it's always good to run with it, you know? And so the idea of the metaphor of somebody who's got profound learning disabilities and can't speak being inside this shell and as parents you're always kind of peeking in from the outside to see what's going on within or to try and find ways, the idea of when you're checking to see if you've got a chick inside your shell, and you do this thing called ‘candle' where you hold the light to it, that I describe in the poem, and you like hold it to your ear and hear if there's movement going on inside. And you kind of, I don't know, I felt with a profoundly learning-disabled child that you always feel like you're doing that as a parent as well to see if what you're doing is, you know, if you're still communicating while you're trying to be a parent.  Natalie: Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Paul, both the poem and also your exploration of how you got to that point in writing that poem.  Tremendously powerful to kind of understand and hear about that experience.  Bobbie, if I can come to you. Paul referred to that project as kind of audacious, can you tell us a little bit about the origins of the Helix of Love but also why storytelling, especially through poetry, was so important for the EPPiGen Project?  Bobbie: Yes, of course, Natalie. But can I start by saying I was so pleased that you got Paul to speak for a while after because I always have to compose myself after hearing these poems because they really do hit so powerfully, however many times you hear them. And I think that is part of what we wanted to achieve with this project, we wanted to use innovative research methods, we wanted to be…  I love the word ‘audacious'; I'm going to borrow that.  We wanted to be audacious; we wanted to be courageous, and let me tell you, our Ethics Committee were a little bit worried about the sorts of things we told them we wanted to do. But we knew because we live and work in Brighton that the world is full of creative people and we'd already had such wonderful partnerships with people over the years, we knew that we could draw people into this project who would help us to work with this fabulous group of parents ,in a way that would give them, as Paul says, an opportunity to explore their own feelings and their own experience and share it as they wished.    In an earlier conversation with Paul, which he might find surprising that it's stuck with me so much, he used the word ‘extractive' and he said that he'd been involved in research before and looking back on it he had felt at times it could be a little bit extractive. You come in, you ask questions, you take the data away and analyse it and it might only be by chance that the participants ever know what became of things next. One of the real principles of this project was always going to be co-production and true collaboration with our participants, and the poetry project probably wouldn't have come about if it hadn't been for the passion of one of our participants who was sort of finding a love for poetry herself and said, “Can we try this next?” So, you know, it means so much to Rich and I that we ended up with this amazing book, but it's not our book, it's our poets', as we like to refer to them, book.   So, one of the things that we are so pleased about in this project is that our participants now have a variety of ways in which they can transport their voices into spaces that they previously found maybe alienating, challenging, and not particularly welcoming. And I think another wonderful upshot from this project has been how receptive people have been to the work. And it's a sort of commonly held myth that your average philosophy article has a readership of 3.4 people. Rich created a wonderful map to show how Helix has travelled round the world and touched thousands of people – I don't think that's an exaggeration – and we couldn't be more grateful for that as researchers because we feel as passionately about these subjects as our participants and it is they who have really got this project on the map. Paul, you were going to come in, I hope.  Paul: I feel like the one thing that this project really did was, I know PPIE is a phrase that's bandied round but this project kind of stripped that theme apart and took the ‘I' bit, this project is like built around inclusion and because it felt like, if we'd have just been jumping in a room with Dawn and told to get on with it, I don't think it would've worked as well. The idea that it was kind of curated by Bobbie and Rich, we very much felt like our hands were held through the process, and after them having had to kick down doors in the Ethics Department to be able to get the project through at all, it's like “What are you going to do to these poor parents?” having gone through that process themselves behind the scenes, then to kind of feel like we were guided through this process. And we were guided and held, and they were super-aware of all of us. And the fact that every time you tell these stories as a parent who's gone through them there's a cost. And we've had this discussion with the panel before and the communication group, about the fact that every time you come to a parent and say, “Tell us your story” there's a cost.   And so, they were aware of that, and they held that in both of their hands and so it couldn't have been anything other than this collaborative project by the time we'd finished.  Advert: The Genomics England Research Summit is fast approaching and registration is now open! Join us for this one day in-person event on Tuesday 17 June 2025. This year's agenda dives into rare condition diagnosis, cancer genomics, pharmacogenomics, therapeutic trials, and the impact of emerging technologies. Hear from leading experts and inspirational speakers as we explore the present and future of genomics and the latest research and technology from the Genomics England research community. Keep an eye on the website, genomicsresearchsummit.co.uk for all the details and to secure your spot. Spaces are limited, so don't miss out. We'll see you at the summit! Natalie: We're going to hear a clip from Lisa Beaton, a member of the participant panel at Genomics England, who shares what it has meant for her to take part in the project.  Lisa: It was an amazing opportunity. I had a huge sense of imposter syndrome actually when I as invited to join, because I was aware of some of the people who'd already taken part in the project and although I can bring lived experience to the table I don't really consider myself as a creative writer or anything like that, although I do enjoy it. When I first started in the group, we were just doing free-flowing writing. It was really cathartic, and I didn't expect that in any way, shape or form. To put pen to paper without necessarily having any strategy in mind, just letting the thoughts come out and ramble away, I didn't really know what was going to come blurting out onto my notepad, and reading some of it back was moving but it was frustrating. It was moving, it was everything really, that opportunity just as a safe space, knowing I didn't have to share it with anybody if I didn't want to but I could, and I could just, I suppose I would call it almost like a brain fart, it just rambled away and maybe it was a way of downloading some of the emotions that I was carrying.   As the project went on and we explored different creative mediums I really enjoyed that and found different skills that I wouldn't have thought about. And it was very thought-provoking, being able to go back and think about some of our very early experiences, which is, not that I've buried them but it's just you move on to deal with the here and now, and it brought me back to some of those very raw emotions of the first days which I think are, I hope, helpful to certainly the medical community in terms of thinking about how they talk to new parents going through similar situations. I was very grateful.  Natalie: Rich, I'd like to come to you now. As Bobbie and Paul have both mentioned, the outputs for this project have really spread far and wide and maybe beyond the kind of academic circles that you might typically think. I'd really like to hear from you about how you think the project has helped healthcare professionals, particularly really enabling them to understand a little bit more about what it means to be part of a genomic healthcare service and the journey that patients and families go through. Would you share a little bit about your experience in the project, particularly for healthcare professionals?  Rich: Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things that when Bobbie and I set out to do this, that was one of the real aims, was to sort of help healthcare professionals have a bit more of an insight into what it means to access genomic medicine services from a patient or family perspective. And, as Bobbie said, there were 2 ways we could have gone and done this; we could've done some sort of conventional social science interviews, written that up in a lovely social science or philosophy journal article and no one would've probably read it, but instead we thought about the power of the arts to actually change in terms of how we were sort of collecting and collating people's stories and then how we were sharing and disseminating those stories as well. And I think the medium by which stories are told affect the kind of stories that get told, as Paul was sort of hinting at earlier.    When we ask patients to tell us their story, you know, there's a level of expectation there about what people are being asked to say in a form in a way, and certainly we didn't get people in a room and say, “You must write about genomics.” So many of the poems in the collection aren't really about sequencing or big data, they're about these kind of much wider themes of everyday life. And I think that's been really powerful in allowing healthcare professionals to sort of understand for patients obviously genomics is really important but it's not the be all and end all of everything that's going on in their lives, you know, there are so many other pressures, so many other hopes and desires, and people want an opportunity to express some of those positive aspects of their life with their loved ones and it not just be medicalised all of the time.    Again, as Bobbie said, it's also opened up our research travelling really well and just become something that's really accessible for people to pick up and read through, and I've had conversations with healthcare professionals that have said, “Oh I read through the book of poetry and it's made me realise all of these things.” Language particularly has been a really prominent theme that people have reported, telling us they've learnt a lot about it, and thinking about how they write their letters and how they communicate with people. And obviously this isn't new, you know, bioethicists for years have been talking about the need to communicate very carefully, very precisely and in a caring way, but I think there's something about communicating those messages through a really powerful art form like poetry through patients' own words that allows clinicians and healthcare professionals to sort of really get the impact of that in a very, very powerful way.  Natalie: Thanks, Rich, really helpful insights there. I really want to pick up on your point about language and come back to Paul on that because I know that's a topic area that can often be, you know, hugely sensitive to families that the medicalisation, the terminology that's used, especially, you know, complex areas like genomics, coming back to this term we mentioned earlier about being sort of alienating. How have you found that the work through the EpiGen project and Helix of Love, has it potentially helped the way that families can think about the right sorts of language and enable health professionals to sort of approach some of these questions in a slightly more human way? Paul: Difficult to say. It's a very, very live topic all the time. There's like a backchat communications channel with the Genomics England panel where, because we all go along and do this thing, but we all share that genomics common thread in our lives. One parent was breaking their heart about the fact that they'd had sight of genetic science reports that basically described their child, and children like them as ‘lumped together' in a project, and she was gutted about it. And we all were as well, and we were all open-mouthed about it. The whole idea of kind of separating the science and the science language out from the people who are involved, it is our job, isn't it, you know, our job as the panel members is to remind people that those are people, not statistics. But it's a really live subject and the more people, the more professionals who can be reminded of that on a daily basis and the more we can find kind and open ways to deliver that message to professionals, and every single day that we do that makes a difference, I think. If one parent has to get less of a letter like that or one professional thinks more carefully about how they phrase stuff before it goes out the door, then that's one less parent who's got to go through that.  Natalie: Absolutely. And I'm thinking about that insight. I suppose the anticipation and the realisation to healthcare professionals about the impact of the way they approach things, the language they use, the kind of mindset they might adopt with parents and families, one really important aspect of the project was to do sort of preparedness and the idea that you should be able to anticipate and plan for and acknowledge some of the ethical challenges that might come through when you're dealing with questions of genomic healthcare where there may be lots of uncertainty, there may be a long journey to go through.   Bobbie, can I come to you to help us unpack this notion of ethical preparedness as a core theme for EPPiGen? Help us understand what that means in kind of simple terms and why does it matter for those who are working in the genomic medicine and healthcare space.  Bobbie: I think the way in which most people will have heard of this concept of preparedness is in relation to disaster planning. We know that some of the good things we try and do in life are also potentially fraught with challenges and difficulties just because of their complexity and because of the wide range of people and organisations that will be involved. Can we take this idea of preparedness and almost say, “You have a moral responsibility to be ethically prepared when, for example, you embark upon a really dramatic change in healthcare delivery or an introduction of fantastic new healthcare innovation”?    And genomics seemed to be the perfect case study for this. We then had to say, “What does that actually mean in practice?” And I think here we wanted to move away from the idea that you can ethically prepare people by putting a small albeit very expert and clever group of people in a room to write guidance and regulations, those things are needed and they're useful. But it's actually much more important to almost recruit everybody, to bring everybody up to speed, so that the ethical challenges aren't a complete shock to those who are delivering the service in the frontline, so that those who plan systems actually think whilst doing so of the ethical challenges that can be posed by the tasks they're attempting to achieve.    And I was a sort of founder member of the Ethics Advisory Committee at Genomics England, and it was so interesting in those early days because there were no patients, there were no participants. We were sitting alongside people whilst they designed and put in place basic processes, strategies and ethics was a part of that. And a really important part of that to me, at those meetings, was hearing what the potential participants had to say about it because, again, the Participant Panel was involved. And I found that those were my people, those were the people who were worrying about, concerned about the same things as I was.  So, I think to be prepared we have to take on the responsibility of giving people who work in ethically challenging areas opportunities to come together to acknowledge the complexity of the task, to share strategies and tools, but also, very importantly, to not become divorced from the people that they are attempting to serve, because in fact we feel that this part of our project, and our project is much bigger than this and we've done some fantastic things working with healthcare professionals, medical scientists, etc, etc, but this part of the project is an attempt to say, “We can better prepare families as well by ensuring that we tell them that their voices are valuable, that they're important, and they help rather than hinder healthcare professionals in doing their jobs.”  Natalie: That's a really important point around the idea that this approach can help, can be positive. Because I think sometimes you think about preparedness and, and quite often with ethics it's about risk, it's about, you know, “How do we avoid the risks?” but there's a very positive story to tell about taking a more preparedness-type approach to thinking through ethical complexities, challenges and so on, both for health professionals and, as you say, for families. I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more about the kind of positive aspects that that can bring to everyone in that genomics healthcare journey, both the health professionals and the families.  Because I think sometimes it's easy just to think that it's mostly about sort of avoiding the risks and the pitfalls, and that might be harder to engage with people if you take that sort of risk-based approach.  Bobbie: Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think the ability to confront risk and uncertainty is a sign of maturity. And we find medical students, for example, hate any sense of uncertainty; they want to be told how to do something and they want to know that they'll be able to do that thing and get it right. And our job is often to say, “Well it's not going to be as easy as that, in fact it might be impossible, and here's what you have to do instead and here's how you allow yourself to fail or to not achieve in the way that you want but still do something really meaningful for the people that you're caring for.”  So, I think there's that aspect of saying, “It's part of medical education, it's part of how we should think in organisations that wherever you take risks, wherever you try to push frontiers, blur boundaries…”  I mean, genomic medicine has done something really interesting in terms of blurring the boundary between scientific research and clinical care. Wherever you do these things there are going to be challenges but those challenges, they're fascinating, they're interesting, they can bring us together. If we've got a shared will to get through them, you know, to make things work, then it's enlivens what you're doing; it's not a barrier.   I sort of began teaching and working in the space of bioethics right back in the ‘80s, which is a shock to you, I'm sure, but in those days I'm afraid that ethics was seen as a block, a barrier, a hurdle that people had to get over or through. And I think there's still a sensitivity, and certainly, I myself have been sort of challenged on critiques that I have offered to say, “Oh that's a bit harsh.” But I think what ethics attempts to do now, and certainly through really putting a positive spin on this idea of working together to establish ethical preparedness in important spaces, is to show that actually ethics can be very facilitative, it can be very supportive, and it can help people. It's not a surveillance mechanism, it's actually another clinical tool and something that, you know, people should seek support around.  Advert: If you're enjoying what you've heard today and you'd like to hear some more great tales from the genomics coalface, why don't you join us on the Road to Genome podcast, where our host, Helen Bethell, chats to the professionals, experts and patients involved in genomics today. In our new series, Helen talks to a fantastic array of guests including the rapping consultant, clinical geneticist Professor Julian Barwell about Fragile X Syndrome, cancer genomics and the holistic approach to his practice. A genuine mic-drop of an interview. The Road to Genome is available wherever you get your podcasts. Natalie: Rich, if I could come to you thinking about that reframing, I suppose, in your own research practice as an early career researcher, whether you're seeing that maturity in approach in thinking about some of these really complex, knotty ethical questions in genomics, are you seeing a greater appreciation for those?  And where do you think you're going to take your research as a result of this project in that space?  Rich: Yeah, thanks, that's a great question. Yeah, I think so, and I think one of the things that's really been revealing in this is the appetite for this kind of work in the sort of genomics sector, an appetite for thinking about the sort of complex ethical issues, for engaging with kind of arts-based research, for sort of finding new language and new spaces to involve patient and family perspectives and stories and think about how we can learn from them.    I think in the highly scientific, highly technical space of genomics we often assume that everyone wants numbers and hard data but actually I think the way that this work has travelled, the amount of invitations we've had to sort of exhibit this work and talk to healthcare professionals and scientists about this work shows that there's this really rich appetite for thinking about this complexity and doing that work of ethical preparedness, as Bobbie's talked about, and I think it's fascinating. And I know a lot of the participants who joined in our project have also sort of had opportunities from being involved in our work and found that there are people that want to listen to their voices and hear from them and learn from them as well. So that's been really exciting, and I hope it will continue and I hope there's opportunities for much more interdisciplinary collaboration in the genomics space with philosophers, with social scientists with ethicists, with artists and, importantly, with patients.    Paul: You mentioned the idea that certainly the poetry at the very least has allowed those voices to get into different spaces, and I think when those things first started happening it was when we at least as the people who'd written the poems felt that there was a huge big impact from this stuff. And I wasn't the first one to read one of these poems out loud, and in a way the collection of poetry became bigger than the sum of its parts in a funny kind of a way. And I can't remember but somebody read one of the poems at a conference somewhere and they said at the end of it that you could've heard a pin drop, and it was just that thought that actually with a big audience expecting kind of quite dry subject matter about genetics, to have felt that moment where the poem got launched off the stage and then it impacted on the audience and then, the way they described it, you could almost kind of feel them describing the ripples of the poem just like spreading out amongst this kind of silent audience and everyone kind of taking this kind of mental sigh of like “Oh that's what it feels like.” And the idea of that happening was when, for me anyway, when we knew that what we'd created was bigger than the sum of its parts and had its own legs, Bobbie and Rich had been the Dr Frankensteins of this kind of amazing, beautiful monster. Natalie: Obviously the poetry's got into your soul, Paul, the metaphors are fantastic. But just to make sure we bring in even more participant voices and perspectives into this we're just going to hear now from Jo Wright, who's another member of the participant panel, who's going to share what the project and the participant in it has meant for her.  Jo: So being part of the EPPiGen Project, it helped me to find my voice in an area that was relatively new to me, and also it was a way to take control of my own experiences rather than feel like I'm being swept along by a lot of systems.    And there were things that I really value that I thought contributed to making the project so successful. One was that they asked the question “What is this experience like for you, the experience of being part of a research project, the 100,000 Genomes experience of waiting, the experience of having your data in the library?” And no one had asked that before. You go to your appointments and you're in the system and, you know, it's kind of, everyone was finding their way to some extent because it was new for all the clinicians as well, but the fact that they asked, because no one asked that before, I don't have an outlet for that.     And then the other thing was that it was completely open so there was no research interview or questionnaire to answer, no expectation about what it was going to look like at the end. And I think working that way really strengthened the connection between us as parents of children with rare conditions and then also our relationships with Bobbie and Rich as the researchers and with the wider clinical community when they started to see our work and respond to it. So it was a way to understand people's individual experiences but it also made us feel connected and empowered through sort of like shared human experience, and that could be between us as the participants but also shared experiences between us and the researchers or us and clinicians and scientists that were looking at what we've done.  Natalie: So we've heard lots about the experience of participating in this fantastic EPPiGen Project, the kind of creative storytelling methods, the audacious methods that have been used, and some fantastic impacts beyond the kind of typical what could be quite dry sort of academic circles that this kind of work has spread out to.  I'd be really interested to hear from each of you about the takeaways, what you've learned, what's changed for you and what you'd like our listeners to really understand about this project and the work, and the sort of outputs from it and the ways it might continue to have resonance and impact going into the future, so whether people are patients, families, clinicians, researchers. What would you like people to remember and what's affected you most about the project?    Bobbie, I might start with you.  Bobbie: I think we have to always be very careful when we get excited about something - and the ‘we' here are the people in the health community, the education community, etc - to remember. As Rich said earlier, that this is only ever going to be quite a small part of other people's lives. You know, we've all devoted big parts of our careers, our enthusiasm, to thinking about genomics, to working in this space. I would really like people to pick up the book and work to understand a bit better about the everyday lives, the hopes, the expectations, the fears of the families who may or may not get a diagnosis, may or may not get on a good treatment path, all of whom want the best for themselves and everybody else from this venture.    But, as Paul knows better than most, it won't come to everybody, and we don't want anybody to be forgotten along the way. The people that signed up for Genomics England as participants were pioneers alongside medics and the scientists, and in these early years we want their experience to be recognised, and their experience goes much beyond their interaction with Genomics England and, unfortunately, all the work that we've produced shows how many challenges families have to face to secure a good life for their children, and I just want us all to just keep that in mind.    Natalie: Incredibly important to maintain that focus, that awareness. And, as you say, Bobbie, there's an interesting balance where there is a need for the drive and the innovation and the ambition to help ensure that we are pushing at the forefront of medical research but not leaving people behind and not ever forgetting, as you say, the experience of people who are actually at the forefront of this research and of genomic healthcare.   Paul, could I ask for your perspectives on this, and particularly how you see patient voices being involved in the future of genomic medicine, especially in light of your experience in the EPPiGen Project?  Paul: I think the biggest surprise and biggest takeaway for me was the project gave me, I mean, I can't speak necessarily for all the other poets, but you only need the evidence in the book itself. They gave us the tools, the project gave us the tools to find a different way to get at all of those things inside of all of us who were going through that experience. So it gave us a way to talk about all of those things and a way that was I suppose slightly removed to start with. It's almost like a different lens or a different filter to give us a way to look at all those things, almost like a magnifying lens; you can either hold it really close to your eye and it gives you like a blurry view of the world that goes on and you can relax behind that and find a way to explore things in a funny way or an interesting way, but you can also go really close into the subject and then you've got to deal with the things that are painful and the things that are difficult and the things that have had an impact.    But, because you've got that tool and you're used to using it or you're familiar with using it, it then gives you that safety. That's how I felt about it anyway, it was a massive tool to be able to get behind all of these things that I didn't even know I was feeling, or I knew they were making me uncomfortable, but I didn't know what they were or what name to give them. So the poetry gave us a chance to get behind all of that. Having read the poems, it feels like it's that for everybody but obviously you'd have to speak to them to know, but it certainly felt like that for me.  Natalie: And, Rich, your perspective.  What are you taking forward from the project, so what would your sort of key takeaway be?  Rich: I think it shows what is possible under that PPIE acronym. And there are many ways to do that involvement and engagement, it doesn't have to be a sort of dry tick-box exercise, there are much more creative ways to bring people's lived experiences and perspectives into conversations with genomics. So really, I suppose it's a call for other people to explore working in this way as well and think about what other kind of creative outputs could work here. I mean, we've had huge success, and I think a really interesting impact from working in this way.    And certainly as an early career researcher it's been really formative in my sort of academic journey, you know, reaffirmed that this is the kind of work that I want to do, working in this really co-productive way. And I think it's possible, it can be done, and, you know, ultimately it's just been a real privilege to do this kind of research, to sort of be trusted to sort of hold a space together for sharing people's stories and give people a platform to share some really powerful profound stories. And going back to what Paul was saying earlier, I think he hit the nail on the head, as he very often does, this is about evoking people's experiences, not just explaining people's experiences, and allowing those stories to travel.  And we don't know where stories will travel, we don't know how stories will travel, we don't know how stories will be received, but we know that they do sort of travel and they do have legacy and they stay memorable to people, they have emotional resonance. So, the impact of this work can often be hard to sort of pin down really specifically, but we know those stories are out there and people are listening and changing their practice as a result.  Natalie: We'll wrap up there. I'd like to thank our guests, Paul Arvidson, Professor Bobbie Farsides and Dr Rich Gorman, for joining me today as we discuss the EPPiGen Project. We heard some powerful insights from patients and families about their experiences, and why ethical preparedness is so important in the context of genomic medicine. If you would like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host, Natalie Banner. This podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital and produced by Naimah Callachand. 

In today's episode, we dive into building your personal brand as a coach. You'll hear about "Connected Kelly," a coach who initially felt pressured to conform to an analytical persona in her big tech job, only to discover that her true strength—Connectedness—was what truly set her apart. You'll learn how she transformed her approach, leading to a more fulfilling and energized coaching practice.   We also explore practical tips for building your personal brand, including how to identify the challenges you can help solve and how to communicate your unique value effectively. Whether you're an independent coach or working internally at a company, it's important to be specific in your messaging to connect with your ideal clients.   So, if you're ready to make sure your coaching brand aligns with your personal brand, this episode is packed with insights and actionable advice to help you shine!

In today's episode, we dive into the essential, yet often overlooked, concept of "working on your business" versus "working in your business." We share our personal experiences and insights on how taking intentional time to strategize can transform your entrepreneurial journey. If you've ever felt like you're just spinning your wheels, constantly reacting to the demands of your business, this episode is for you! We discuss the importance of stepping back, assessing your goals, and making those scary but necessary decisions that can lead to greater profitability and joy in your work. You'll hear us chat about the value of business planning retreats and how they can help you align your offerings with your strengths. Whether you've been in the game, are building a side hustle, or are still dreaming of the entrepreneurial life, it's imperative to pause, reflect, and create a roadmap for success. So pull up a chair, settle in, and get ready to be inspired to take that much-needed time for yourself and your business!

Goal setting. Does setting and getting goals light you up and get you groovin? Or maybe you're not a big fan. Either way, this episode focuses on how to set yourself up for success – by using your Strengths, of course! We believe that when you approach goal setting through the lens of your individual talents, it not only makes the process more enjoyable but also opens up a whole new realm of possibilities that you might not have considered before. Tune in for personal anecdotes and insights about how leveraging your strengths can transform your goals from mundane tasks into inspiring challenges. We discuss the importance of having a solid action plan and the value of check-ins to keep you on track. Plus, we emphasize that even if a goal feels outside your natural strengths, you can still use your unique talents to achieve it. So, whether you're looking to set a Big Hairy Audacious Goal or just want to make your bed every day (no judgment here!), this episode is packed with tips and strategies to help you set it and get it!

Did you know that frustration and burnout your talents can be ‘hangry'. In today's episode, we dive into the delightful concept of nurturing your nature! Life can be tough, and we all know that adulting isn't just a walk in the park. So, why not focus on what makes you shine? We discuss the importance of not just using your strengths, but actively nurturing and developing them to unlock their full potential. You'll hear us chat about the nuances of nurturing your talents, the idea of nourishing them like a well-cooked meal, and how to create opportunities for your strengths to thrive. We even share some personal reflections on our own talents and how we are intentional about feeding them. So, if you've ever felt like your talents are a bit hangry or underutilized, this episode is for you! Join us as we encourage you to take a moment to reflect on how you can start nurturing your nature today.

Whether on a trip to Vegas, family reunion, or navigating the mountain's edge, our strengths are there every step of the way. The question is, are they guiding, protecting, and supporting you? Or are they getting in the way, causing conflict and confusion?   In today's episode, we dive into the fascinating world of applying our strengths beyond the workplace. You'll hear us share some hilarious and relatable stories about how recognizing and celebrating each other's strengths can help you move from frustration to fascination, transforming everyday interactions into opportunities for connection and appreciation.   If you're dealing with a frustrating situation using strengths at home, or just want to bring a little more joy into your relationships, this episode is packed with insights and tips to help you embrace your strengths in every aspect of life!

About This Episode on The Question “How Did You Do That?” Have you ever had someone say, “Wow! How did you do that?” or “You make that look so easy!” and think, ‘What? Like it's hard?' (I see you, Elle Woods!) Or maybe you've recognized how others seem to be able to pick up or breeze through certain tasks with an effortlessness or ease you only dream of. It's all a clue to talent! In this episode, we talk about one of the “5 Clues to Talent”: Rapid Learning. We share personal anecdotes and examples of how recognizing what comes easy to you can lead to a deeper understanding of your strengths. Whether it's performing on stage, hyping people up, or crushing spreadsheets and TPS reports, acknowledging these innate abilities can lead to a deeper understanding of your strengths – and make hard work feel a little more easy-breezy. So, grab your metaphorical "easy button" and join us for this episode on the 2nd “Clue to Talent”: Rapid Learning. We'll answer, “How did you do that so easily” with a lens of strengths.   Work With Us! BREA Roper Communication | Woo | Activator | Futuristic | Connectedness If you need a Strengths Hype Girl, for yourself or your team, connect with Brea at brearoper.com. She's ready to deliver an inspirational keynote, empowering training, or transformational workshop. If you're looking for an expert guide to support your internal Strengths efforts, reach out today! LISA Cummings Strategic | Maximizer | Positivity | Individualization | Woo   To work with Lisa, check out team workshops and retreats at the Lead Through Strengths site. For 1:1 strengths or life coaching, check out the Get Coached link. For independent coaches, trainers, and speakers, get business tools support with our Tools for Coaches membership.   Takeaways on Rapid Learning (AKA How Did You Do That?) Your Talents Are Easy Buttons: One of the key clues to talent is ease - those things that come effortlessly to us but may seem challenging to others. Recognizing and embracing what comes easily to you is fundamental for your success. Leaning into your talents can help you work smarter, not harder. Apply Talent to Challenges: When you're faced with a challenge, ask yourself, “How can I make this easy?” By leveraging your easy buttons, you can excel in your endeavors - even the most challenging ones. Easy Buttons are Not Excuses to be Lazy: Continuous learning and skill development that aligns with your talents i. By taking action to learn skills that complement your strengths, you can make the path to success feel more effortless and enjoyable. Remember, hard work doesn't have to be hard. Align it with your strengths and it actually feels easy.

About This Episode on Getting What You Really Want Out of Life What do the Spice Girls, double rainbows, and pursuing our dreams all have in common? Yearning. If you're someone who is looking to tap into your inner desires and explore what you really want out of life, this episode is for you. Inspired by Gallup's “Five Clues to Talent”, Lisa & Brea explore how our dreams and desires can clue us in to our hidden talents.   We discuss how yearnings can: ●      arise in personal and professional settings ●      impact daily tasks and long-term goals ●      be a powerful motivator   We also discuss: ●      how different talent themes yearn for different things, and in different ways ●      what might keep us from discovering, embracing, and pursuing our desires   We also share practical tips and exercises to help you uncover your yearnings and start working towards making them a reality.   Work With Us! BREA Roper Communication | Woo | Activator | Futuristic | Connectedness If you need a Strengths Hype Girl, for yourself or your team, connect with Brea at brearoper.com. She's ready to deliver an inspirational keynote, empowering training, or transformational workshop. If you're looking for an expert guide to support your internal Strengths efforts, reach out today! LISA Cummings Strategic | Maximizer | Positivity | Individualization | Woo   To work with Lisa, check out team workshops and retreats at the Lead Through Strengths site. For 1:1 strengths or life coaching, check out the Get Coached link. For independent coaches, trainers, and speakers, get business tools support with our Tools for Coaches membership.     Takeaways The Human Desire For Something More Yearning, longing, and dreaming are innate to the human experience. It's good to identify what our hearts truly long for and what we aspire to achieve. Whether it's a long-term dream or a simple desire for a change in our daily routine, yearning allows us to strive for something greater and live with purpose.   Our Talents Can Support Our Dreams Our natural talents can play a significant role in fulfilling our yearnings. By identifying our talents and understanding how they can inspire and support our dreams and aspirations, we can leverage our strengths to achieve our goals and live a more fulfilling life.   Living in the Moment Yearning doesn't only involve looking toward the future. For individuals who naturally focus on the here and now, being present and embracing what brings us joy and fulfillment in the here and now can be a powerful way to live out our yearnings on a daily basis. Remember, it's never too late to start dreaming and working towards your aspirations. Let's embrace our yearnings and strive for a life filled with purpose and fulfillment.

Embark on an inspiring journey into the essence of leadership with Lisa Plaske, renowned for her transformative insights garnered from the White House to the International Alliance for Women. This episode transcends the conventional career playbook, delving deep into the soul of leadership. Discover the art of elevating team achievements by recognizing the intrinsic value of every individual, fostering a workplace culture where genuine connections thrive, and each member's potential is celebrated.Join us as we navigate the labyrinth of authentic leadership, unveiling the four cornerstones of inspiration and uncovering the power of personal recognition. From poignant anecdotes of employees finding motivation in unexpected places to strategies for cutting through the digital clutter and fostering meaningful face-to-face interactions, we explore how effective communication lies at the heart of resilient, compassionate, and deeply connected leadership. With Lisa's Upside Thinking guiding our path, listeners are invited to embark on a journey toward leadership that drives success and nurtures every team member's well-being and growth.NOTABLE QUOTES"You have to see people as valuable as the capital that runs your business." – Lisa"Leadership requires influence, and how do you influence others if you don't even like people?" – Lisa"It's about the people, not the work." – Philip"Management is about workflow. Leadership is about people and influence. They're very different." – Lisa"We need people to bring all of their personalities, we don't need them to just bring the part of what they do to get the job done. When that happens, there's innovation happening, there's excitement." – Lisa"People in their fullest form bring projects alive." – Lisa“Sometimes we have to focus on the lowest common denominator, the lowest person to bring the rest of the group up, instead of focusing on the high achievers.” – Philip“When we all perform better, we all start to do better.” – Philip“Being able to understand what motivates each person is what will ensure that you maximize their productivity." – Lisa"Understand why people show up at work and have greater compassion for that." – Lisa"Value people and care enough to learn what's important to them, and then ensure that your actions in terms of performance awards reflect that." – Lisa“You learn more when you walk around and see people.” – Lisa“Leadership starts with self.” – Lisa“Understand who you are, what you want, and why it matters to you.” – Lisa“When we allow our ego to get in the way, whether we have the title of leader or not, that's when a lot of trouble happens in life.” – Philip“Have a culture that allows people to say, ‘No,' and to say, ‘I don't think so.'” – Lisa“It doesn't matter how brilliant your process is, [or] how brilliant your initiative is if the [leaders] themselves [are] not healthy, you can't create a culture where people can thrive.” – Lisa“The way that leadership handles things is the way that the company will go.” – Philip“The lack of communication is what cripples companies.” – Philip[38:12] “Comfort doesn't change the world; the world needs you and your brilliance.” – LisaRESOURCESLisaWebsite: https://www.upsidethinking.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lisa.marie.platskeInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/lisaplatskeLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisamarieplatske/Email: Connect@UpsideThinking.comPhilipDigital Course: https://www.speakingsessions.com/digital-courseInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamphilipsessions/?hl=enTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@philipsessionsLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philip-sessions-b2986563/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/therealphilipse Support the Show.

This podcast episode delves into a powerful story of resilience and overcoming mental health challenges. Guest Todd Rennebohm shares his life-changing experience of a 911 call that not only saved his life but also opened up important conversations about mental health and addiction. Throughout the episode, Todd discusses his journey as a mental health advocate, a survivor of suicide attempts, and his recovery from addiction. From being diagnosed with chronic anxiety at a young age to battling alcohol and substance abuse, Todd's story sheds light on the connection between mental health and substance use. Todd emphasizes the importance of self-advocacy and seeking help within the flawed healthcare system. The episode also touches on Todd's book, which tackles the topic of mental health through a child's perspective, aiming to start conversations and normalize discussions surrounding mental health in families. ..................................................................................... Listen to Todd's podcast Bunny Hugs & Mental Health on Apple podcast or Spotify Follow Todd on Instagram @bunnyhugspodcast .................................................................................... RISING STRONG LINKS: Get new episode notifications: bit.ly/risingstrongupdates Follow us on Instagram: @risingstrongpodcast Facebook page - send your reviews and comments via the 'comment' button here: www.facebook.com/risingstrongpodcast WIN SWAG: · Email a screenshot of your 5-star review for a chance to win some Rising Strong swag! Lisa@LisaKBoehm.com Remember to follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode ..................................................................................... TRANSCRIPT: host/Lisa: In today's episode, we unravel the powerful story of a lifechanging 911 call that not only saved a life, but also opened up a conversation about mental health and addiction. Welcome to the Rising Strong podcast. I'm your host, Lisa, and today's guest is going to inspire you in so many ways. Tod and I met almost exactly one year ago at a mental health event where he openly shared his journey from the stage. He's a mental health advocate, suicide attempt, survivor in recovery from addiction, speaker, author and host of Bunny hugs and mental health. Welcome to the show, Todd. Todd Thank you. It's lovely to see you again. And at that exact same event a year ago this year, you were speaking at it. And so that was very exciting. Lisa: Right? It seems like we're like in a pinball game or something where we keep literally bumping into each other at these mental health events. So clearly, I really believe in the universe. When you meet people, it's for a reason. Todd: It's a reason. A season or a lifetime, I've been. Lisa: Told yes, or a lesson somewhere in there, I have a few lesson people. Todd: Well, yeah, that too. Yeah, sure. Right. Lisa So we're having this chat because you've had a long journey with mental health. How long does that go back and when did things start? Todd: Oh, boy. This could be a three hour episode if we wanted it to be, but it actually started in grade five. I was diagnosed with a stomach ulcer. When you're grade five, most kids don't have stomach issues that like 80 year old ceos of billion dollar companies have because they have so much anxiety and pressure and worry. But that is an ailment that kind of runs in my family. My grandfather had it and my mom has issues, so nobody thought anything of it. So they treated me for the physical part of it, but nobody really questioned why was there anxiety? Why does he worry so much? And that was the thing. Nobody called it anxiety when I was grade five. So I'm 46 years old, so that was almost 40 years ago. So, yeah, the word anxiety wasn't really a thing. It was more like, oh, you worry too much, or my mom would call it a nervous stomach. So the nervous boy love. It's called chronic anxiety, actually. So that's kind of when it started. And then in high school, I kind of was introduced to alcohol. Being in a small town mean, I say that, but I mean, kids drink everywhere. But that was very much the culture when I was that age in small town Saskatchewan. And a lot of my anxiety kind of, I don't know, it didn't go away, but I didn't worry about every little thing like I used to. And then, yeah, out of high know, drinking turned into more and more. And there's a lot of addiction to my family, a lot of anger issues with the men. So a lot of my anxiety and depression eventually turned into anger. I was bouncing around from job to job. It's so weird. I've been discussing this lately, how life can be very polarizing at all times. So it's like some of these moments, I look back and it's like, that was the darkest time of my life. But then I'm also like, oh, but I had so much fun, too. So it's like you can be miserable and happy at the same time, and it's hard to wrap your head around how that's possible. But I don't know if it's like different frequencies, so they're not actually overlapping, they're actually just happening at the same time or something. Anyway, yeah, I used to play in bands and stuff, and it was like, I mean, talk about touring with a band and stuff. It is so much fun, but also so anxiety inducing. And you're drinking all the time and you're calling home and the girlfriend's crying and upset and missing you. And so it's like, yeah, it's very polarizing. So anyway, I had cool things like that going through my life, but also just everyday kind of schlub stuff. Band breaks up, and then you're doing just labor jobs for minimum wage. So then my anxiety depression stuff kind of turns more into the anger. And I think I'd rather feel depressed than angry. I can't stand that feeling. I'd wake up angry and go to work angry just because I felt unfulfilled or something, or not satisfied with life and the drop of a hat. I would just be throwing stuff and smashing stuff, and it's not a good look. I mean, I felt like a child having a temper tantrum. Like, I've seen family members do it, and every time I'm just like, oh, my God, this is so, one, scary for people, two, just annoying. You just want to shut up. And then there I am doing it, and it's like, oh, my God, I hate this. But eventually I started drinking and using marijuana constantly, and my issues came to a head. I had a suicide attempt. I tried going to the hospital once and was basically turned away, which is kind of a reason for when I started advocating, because I went to the ER and was turned away. So then, yeah, eventually stuff came to a head again and I ended up. I quit drinking, and that was huge for my anger and my depression. Still working through anxiety, then Covid hit and more job bouncing around. Then eventually I was diagnosed with ADHD about a year ago. And so this fall I was working with EMDR therapists to maybe work through some of my trauma stuff. It's basically lifelong, and there's always, anytime you peel off a layer, there's another layer there that you could definitely work on. And whether it's you use the same strategies or the same tools that you used before, or you need a different strategy like EMDR, or a different diagnosis, like ADHD, a different medication, or a different perspective when it comes to therapies or different modalities. I'm just trying to get through the day without letting these extreme polar feelings pull me one way or another and just keep the balance, really. It's a journey. Lisa: I have a question for you. I just want to circle back to something that you said. Todd: Definitely. Lisa: In your opinion, do you think that there is a connection between. I don't want to just say mental health, but let's say anxiety, just because that's something you're familiar with. Do you think that there's an association, a link, a parallel between substance use, whether it's alcohol or drugs, and anxiety? Todd: I do, of course, everybody's different, but when I worked, because I worked at the treatment center I went to after I quit drinking for a couple of years, and it was quite obvious that addiction is a comorbidity of not just anxiety, but like PTSD, bipolar, different personality disorders. And really an anxiety is just a symptom of a greater thing quite often, too. So, yeah, I do think that substance abuse and anxiety, not only do they link, but they are a very common comorbidity of a lot of other bigger issues, including trauma. And I mean, trauma is also a huge contributor to personality disorders and things. It actually drives me nuts a little bit that when we say mental health and addictions, I wish we could just get rid of the addictions part, because it is part of mental health. When I say mental health or mental illness, it includes addictions. Someday it would be nice to just drop that. But for people that maybe don't understand, I don't know, they're still separated for some reason. Lisa: Absolutely. I found we were talking about this earlier before I hit record. Even amongst our own stories, we are not just this one silo, this single aspect of mental health. I really see mental health myself, as a massive umbrella. And under that umbrella. There are a myriad of topics, including addictions, including grief, including so, so many things. But you're right, the more I learn, and I feel like there's so much still to be learned, that trauma. Trauma, my goodness. I think if we could all heal our traumas, we would probably be far better off. But unfortunately, we live in this symptom, fix the symptom kind of society, right? So we kind of have to pick at the layers, as you say. We kind of maybe get a handle on one layer, and lo and behold, there's another layer to deal with. So interesting. Todd: Sorry, I was going to say also, even with my ADHD, I feel like that's a huge contributor to my anxiety, depression, substance abuse, maybe not the cause. I do think it caused those things, but also other things also contributed to those things. So it's very nuanced. It's all very complicated. There's no one treatment, one pill, one disorder, one diagnosis that's going to fix everything. For me, anyway. I'm finding that I think I have ADHD, but I also think I do have chronic anxiety. On top of that, I also do think that DNA has something to do with it. And nature versus nurture, like you were saying before, you throw spaghetti at the wall and you try different modalities and tools and things, and hopefully you figure out what's going to help you with that particular, I don't know, symptom or whatever. You peel another layer off and you go, okay, that's better. Now moving on to the next one. Lisa Exactly. And I'm certainly not an expert with a bunch of letters behind my name, but I do know that because we are all complex human beings and we are all learning so much more that I think the key maybe is being open. Right? Maybe we don't know what it is that we need or that what's going to, quote unquote, work. I don't know that we can be fixed as human beings as much as people try to fix us, but to cope better or to deal with the situation, whatever it looks like for us. Todd: Or change a belief system within yourself, right? Lisa: A mindset shift, whatever you want to call it. But I think the key is being open and like you say, to keep trying the things, even though you might not think that it's your thing. Like EMDR, man. Game changer. Game changer. When I first read about what it was and what was entailed, I thought, this is insane. I come from a long history of working in the medical system. I'm research driven. I'm data focused. And that EMDR, just when I was reading about it, I thought, well, I'm not so sure about this, but it was one of the greatest things that I did for myself and I cannot say enough about it. Todd: And I tell people all the time, even if it's a placebo and it works. It worked. So who gives a ****? Yeah. Lisa: So tell us about a visit that you had that involved a 911 call. Todd: Well, I'm getting so old. It was like eight years ago. And then it's like someone's like, no, that was like twelve years ago. It's like, oh yeah, I guess you were kidding. So I'm not sure how long ago it was. It was quite a while ago. So this was really some of my darkest times. The year before, I had drove myself to the hospital in Regina, in the ER, asked for help. None was given. And so I felt, as a man in a small town prairie, it was embarrassing for me as a man to go look for help, for emotions. It was huge for me to go do that and then to be told to go home. And basically I was super embarrassed. So I was like, all right, well, I guess I just got to suck it up here. I guess I was already on meds and kind of seen a counselor, but still, it was embarrassing to me. So over the year, I was a bad father, I was a bad husband, I was a bad employee, I was a bad son, and I was using marijuana, drinking all the time I was at a job. I wasn't finding fulfillment in whether that was at the job itself or just because I was in that frame of mind. And things came to a head one day and I had a few drinks in me already. I wasn't like super drunk or anything. My wife said something that triggered me. I don't even remember what. I don't know if it's a psychotic episode, but it's like a dream. I don't remember. I had people fill in some of the blanks, like even years later. But my wife said something and I snapped and I started punching myself in the face. I started slamming my head on the table and it freaked her out. She grabbed our kids. They were little at the time. She went out the door. And while I was there by myself, apparently I just put my head through the wall and I was slamming it as hard as I could against appliances of things. I was convinced in my mind that I just had ruined my life. My wife and kids are gone forever. Over that year, I not just had suicidal ideation, I mean, I was obsessed about it every night before bed, I was pushing knives against my throat and against my wrists, and I was doing really reckless behaviors at work that was dangerous, not for other people, but for myself. When people ask if you had a plan, when doctors are assessing you, do you have a plan? Are you suicidal? Do you have a plan? It didn't matter where I was during my day. I had places I could do things to take my life, right? I worked at the PFRA, at the tree nursery in indian head, and was like, that's a great tree. Mental note. Tools in my shop, I was, like, at work, it was like, didn't matter where I was. I had a plan. So things really came to a head, and, yeah, I was basically slamming my head against stuff. And then my brother showed up. He was the one I had a couple beers with earlier, and my wife apparently went to his place and said, what the hell were you guys doing? Like, you have to go help Todd. He's freaking out. And I pulled out a knife because I'd been practicing for a year, and this was it. And he tried to stop me, and I swung the knife at him, and then he jumped on top of me. He's a big dude. Got on top me and pinned me down. And apparently my sister was there too, and she's, like, trying to get me to smoke weed. To calm down, someone called the ambulance or called 911, and next thing I know, there's three or four police officers in my dining room. They don't know what the hell is going on. They see a knife on the floor. They see a big guy on top of another guy, and all hell breaks loose. Eventually, I'm screaming at them to shoot me. I'm begging them to kill me. I grab one of their guns. I didn't get it out of the holster, but I got my hand on one of their guns. And then things really escalated, and I had parts of my body that I didn't know had feelings that were hurting, because police are very good at detaining people, let's put it that way. And, yeah, they tied me up, and I just remember crying. Not sobbing. I mean, like, scream crying, begging them to shoot me. And I remember saying, like, you're hurting me. I'm tired of hurting. Stop hurting me. I'm tired of hurting. Kill me. Shoot me. But anyway, they detained me and got me in their vehicle, and they took me to my local hospital here in needing head, which then they put me in an ambulance and took me to Regina, to the general hospital, and they finally admitted me into the hospital there. But I remember pulling up. It was almost a year to the day that I tried going to the hospital on my own, and I thought, holy ****, this is what it took to get into the hospital this time, I'm handcuffed to a gurney, strapped to a gurney in an ambulance with two police officers on either side of me. But anyway, I got there. I spent a couple of weeks there, and, I mean, I could write a whole tv series just about the two weeks being in there. And I learned something while I was in there. I learned that you don't really get help in the hospital necessarily. It was a safe place for me to be to chill out for a couple of weeks till I was, like, got my wits about me again. And it did speed up the process to start seeing a psychiatrist because I was on, like, a year long waitlist. And once I got there, it was like, instantly I pushed up the waitlist. So there was that. And it was the beginning, I guess, of my healing process, even though it still took probably five years of really dark moments. There were a couple of kind of rock bottom moments after that, but that was kind of the major one that kind of got the ball rolling a bit. So that was scary. Lisa: Hey, rising strong listeners. If you've been enjoying the inspiring interviews on the podcast, we'd love your support to help us reach more listeners and hopefully gain some sponsorship. To do that, please, like, follow and subscribe wherever you listen to podcast. And here's a little extra incentive. Leave us a five star review, and you'll be entered to win some cool, rising strong swag. Your support means the world to me. Now back to the show. Well, what breaks my heart the most listening to that? Is that something, a situation so extreme is what it took for you to get some attention. Medical, professional, whatever. All the attention. Todd: Yeah. Lisa: How many people suffer in silence? Some people don't have these major breakdowns. That's terrifying that our system is so broken that it takes that much to finally get attention. And then what did your journey after that look like? Were you able to access a psychiatrist or a counselor? Did it tell us what that looked? Todd: Well, actually, while I was in there twice, aa came to my hospital room, and I was like, I shooed them away because I was like, well, I'm crazy depressed. I'm not an alcoholic. I have enough issues. I don't need to join a cult. I shoot them away. In the next few years, I was not thriving. Let's opposite. I was surviving, not thriving, let's put it that way. I was just going through the motions of my day to day. I kind of quit drinking on my own for a little bit, but I really upped my marijuana use because as a stoner, it's like, it's good for you, man. It helps my anxiety, bro. I know different now, but it drives me nuts when I hear people say that. It's not even addicting, man. And then I run out of weed and I have a nervous breakdown 4 hours later. It's my anxiety. Well, yeah, I wonder why I have anxiety. Anyway, I think it was a couple of years later. I did have another stint in the hospital. About a year after that, I had a kind of a bad weekend. It was only a couple of nights I spent in there. I'm doing my best. I'm self employed. Like I said. Eventually I start drinking again. I'm drinking, I'm smoking weed every day. And then I see in the newspaper that the health region or health district or whatever the hell it was called back then, they were laying off. I think it was like 20 some people from the general hospital, all from the psych ward, and I think it was something like 17 of them were psych nurses. And I thought, holy ****, like, I was in there. I know how I've seen how it operates, and I've seen how often security is called. At one point, security was called on me, and I ended up spending the night locked in a room with no bed. They just threw a mattress on the floor, and there was like, cameras. And I was like, security does not de escalate things like the psych nurses are trained. So anyway, I read this. I was like, how is this possible? And once in a while, anger, it's a good motivator. And I was so ****** off. Not like emotionally dysregulated anger. I was like, focused anger. I was like, this is bullshit. So I wrote, I don't know, a letter or blog. I don't know what I was doing. I just let my feelings out on. Well, it's not paper. It was on a keyboard. And I went through my. I basically told my story up to that point and how I thought this is all bs and all this stuff. And I talked about my suicide attempt, which I'd never really done publicly, especially in a small town. And I don't even remember doing this, but I sent it to a bunch of different media outlets and I posted it on facebook and stuff, and it blew up. It kind of went like, I don't know how many tens of thousands of times that letter got shared. I saw it on web pages, like in the states and stuff. Even. I'm like, what is going on? And the next day, it was like all the news outlets from Regina came out to indian head to interview me and talk to me about the stuff. So then I was kind of thrown into this advocacy role that I never thought I'd ever be doing. So then I felt like there was extra pressure on me. Now it's like, oh, okay, I've got people's attention, attention now, so let's keep this ball rolling and make some changes and make a difference. And within two months of having that pressure on me, not that other people were doing it, but my own pressure, I was in the hospital again, and I woke my wife up extremely intoxicated, told her I was going to harm myself and whatever. And that night, I wrote something on my computer. I considered it kind of a suicide note, but it wasn't really a suicide note. But again, a moment of clarity. I woke my wife up. Don't remember. I was so drunk. And that was the last night I drank, actually. I went to the small town hospital here in indian head, and I had an amazing doctor in town at the time, and he basically convinced me to go to treatment and start going to aa and stuff. And so I detoxed in the hospital here for a few weeks. And that really started. Well, actually. Okay, no, the other one started my journey. This was kind of mid journey now, but quitting drinking and quitting the marijuana and all that stuff, that was a huge thing. To this day, I have people reach out to me about a loved one they have, or even about themselves, and they're like, they're drinking, they're using, they're also depressed and all this stuff. And what do we treat first? The depression or the addiction? Again, no two people are the same for me. I had to get rid of that addiction before I could start healing about the anxiety and the depression and what was causing the depression and anxiety. That was the brown skin of the onion. I couldn't even get to layers until that big Chunk came off first. I'm assuming most people are like that, but again, everybody's different. Lisa Yeah. I think that is not a road that I have traveled, however, being on the sidelines of observing people in my life, I would say, from what I have observed, purely that I would concur with that. And so powerful. And it must be so difficult for loved ones spouses. May I ask how your marriage got through these years? I mean, that had to have been a massive strain. Todd: Oh, yeah. There was more than once where I wasn't sure we were going to make it. And I don't want to get too personal, but like I said, I was a bad husband. I was a bad father, I was a bad son. I was doing things that were against my own moral code. And then once you have some moments of clarity, you're like, what am I doing? This is not me. So she was amazing. My wife was amazing. After the first big stay at the hospital, I continued to see my psychiatrist and a counselor regularly. My wife knew somehow she's just a very intelligently, emotionally intelligent person. She knew that we couldn't work as a couple until she dealt with some stuff, too. So whatever I was going through kind of triggered some stuff in her. So she saw someone separately to deal with issues, traumas, and things she was dealing with, and then we would see someone together. So this was all happening at the same time. I was seeing my own person, she was seeing her own person. And then on separate days, we would see someone as a couple. And I really do feel like we got married young, like, we've been together for over 20 years, and I really do feel like we grew up together, even though we did know each other as children. We met when I was, like, 20 and she was 19 or something, but we really grew up together going through that. And then the next time when I was detoxing in the hospital and I quit drinking that night, it was shortly after that that I kind of wanted to leave the hospital and come home. And she said, like, I can't watch you do this to yourself anymore. I love you too much, and I just can't watch anymore. And she was like, if you are coming home, just come home to get your things, because I can't do this anymore. And I thought, oh, ****, okay, this is affecting people more than I thought. So I ended up staying at the hospital and detoxing and going through the whole thing the second time, it wasn't like she was mad or anything. I mean, I'm sure she was mad, but, yeah, it was just too. She was protecting herself and the kids. She's like, we can't do this anymore. I can't watch you do this anymore. And the kids are getting affected by it, and they're going to have traumas and stuff. Lisa: Do you think that hard line in the sand from her? Do you think that gave you a little nudge? A big nudge, maybe? Yeah. Todd: In addiction treatment, they're like, you're not doing this for other people. You're doing this for yourself. And it was kind of an ultimatum in a way, but also I was ready. I was so sick of it and I was just too scared. I was too scared to do it on my own. I didn't know how to do it. I was terrified. I tried for so many attempts to quit and to heal and it was too scary. So I'd quit. So generally, I don't think ultimatums work unless the other person is ready. Like I was ready. I just needed that nudge. And I tell people all the time too, that I think she had the harder end of the deal then. I've had people say, no, you can't compare pain, you can't compare traumas, and you can't compare, which is true. But as a parent now, it's like if my kids were going through it or my wife was going through the things I was going through, I don't know if I'd be able to stick around or just the sleepless nights, the absolute helplessness that she must have felt. God, I can only imagine how scary. Lisa Well, I'm glad that the two of you were able to work it through. I don't know the statistics, but marriage is hard enough on a good day to have extra stressors on it and so on and so forth. I mean, you clearly worked as a team, so I'm really glad to hear that. For anybody who might be listening, who is maybe at their lowest point struggling with either many of the aspects of mental health or addictions, what would be your advice to them? Todd: Oh man, there's so many things because there's so many levels to it. For one, keep advocating for yourself because the system does suck. And even when you're doing what your doctor's orders and you think things are going well, want more, demand more, get certain dates, whatever, like demand more. Because I guarantee you, I feel bad saying this because everyone I've ever met that works in addictions and mental health and in the health authorities, they're all sweet, lovely people, but the system, it's the system that sucks. And they know that. They even know that. So nothing against anyone that works in this field. It's just you have to demand more because the system will probably fail you at some point if you don't demand more. And I've seen it time and time again, and as far as we've come from my first suicide attempt to now, which has been about twelve years, it was only a year ago or a year and a half ago where that young guy was again told to leave the hospital in an hour later, he's found swim floating in the lake. So it's still happening. It's still not perfect. I know that there'll always be a certain percentage of people that get lost, but it's still very frustrating. And the other thing is, no one's going to do it for you. No pill, no therapist is going to fix you. You have to do the work. And that's the hardest part, is taking that first step to actually start doing the work. It took my wife saying, leave, I can't be around you anymore, to really start doing the work. I had seen a counselor for probably two or three years. Off and on. I wasn't doing anything. Like, I would go to the counselor session, I'd come home and not do anything to ask me to do. I'd be taking the pills and then be going like, why aren't they fixing me? Why haven't you cured me yet? And it's hard. It's simple. What you have to do is simple, but it's hard. It's not easy. It's a very simple plan on paper, but executing it is extremely difficult. It's painful, it's terrible. You think of having a broken leg, like the trauma of the broken leg, you don't even feel it at the time. It's the healing, it's the pain. That journey of healing sucks. And then it gets itchy under the cast and there's all types of things, and then you have to go through rehabilitation and all this stuff, like healing sucks, but if you don't do the work, you're just going to get gangrene and who knows what. It's kind of a weird analogy, I guess, but it works. So, yeah, it takes a lot of courage to heal, and unfortunately, a lot of people either don't get that nudge or they never, or something tragic happens before they're able to get into the mindset of doing the work. Lisa: I think you nailed it. There's no fairy godmother that's going to show up. No one is coming to save your butt. We've got to do the work ourselves. And you're absolutely right. It's simple, but far from easy. So one of the things I like to ask my guests on the podcast is what the word resilient means to you. Todd: I just used this word the other day, and I don't know if I've ever really used this word to describe myself or anyone other than Europe after World War II or something, but I use it the other day in a text to my know, life is still hard, whether it's financial or we were watching loved ones being sick. And like you said, even on a good day, marriages can be hard. So to me, resilience. When I think of the word resilience, I think of my wife and I, and I think of our family. And I said, we've been resilient in the past, and we're going to be resilient still, and we're going to get through this patch of it's not a relationship thing, but there's people around us that are suffering financially and kids are graduating, so we're borderline empty, nesting in a few months. So it's just a very transitional period in our lives right now for not just my wife and I, but for other people in our family. So when I think of resilience, I think of my wife and I, and I've never used that word to describe me or our relationship before. So it's kind of funny you use that word. You asked me about that today. Lisa: Well, when I started the podcast, and I knew I wanted to focus on mental health, but I knew that I also wanted to focus on people like you who really are resilient. And it's just really interesting to me because I do ask every single guest that question. Their answers are all varied, right? Because we're all unique snowflakes, but they're all the same at the same time. And I just find it so interesting. And I think it's your story that makes you resilient, right? I did a talk just a couple of weeks ago, and I said, unfortunately, we can't even talk about resilience until we talk about adversity, right? Because when we're sitting on a beach eating cupcakes all day long and the unicorns are running by, we're not growing, right? We're not becoming resilient. That's almost the opposite of resilience. So unfortunately, it does take adversity to get resilience. And like you are, you are that person. And I am so proud of you, Todd, so proud of you for the work that you've done, for the advocacy work that you continue to do. We didn't even get to your book. You've written a children's book, which I just think is just such a gift. It's such a hard topic to talk about. Yes, sometimes, daddy Christ, tell us just real quickly about your book and who it's for and where people can get a hold of it. Todd: Well, actually, the night I quit drinking and I said, I went to my computer and typed up a suicide note. It was actually the first draft of this book. So the night I quit drinking was the first draft of this book, and it was very different. It was the first draft, but it's basically the perspective of a kid watching his father go through depression, anxiety, and stuff. So the father never actually says anything in the book. It's always a conversation with the kid and the mother and the mother explaining to him that it's like having a stomachache. You're not well, so you have to get help. Sometimes you need rest. Sometimes you need medicine. Sometimes you have to go to the hospital. For whatever reason. I have a hard time tooting my own horn. But it's one of the things I'm very proud of, is that book. I think I've walked that fine line of making it realistic, but also not scary for kids. It's just this is what it's like. And kids do tend to understand physical things, so they can apply that to their emotions and to their mental health. And, yeah, it's gotten really great feedback from parents and from professionals. So, yeah, I'm really proud of it. lisa: Well, I think to me, the most important part is that it opens the door for conversation. Right. I mean, I am no parenting expert, but I do know that our kids don't necessarily learn from one conversation. Right. It's that constant revisiting topics. And a book for a small child is just a brilliant way to ease into it, open the door, make this a normalized part of conversations. Todd: Right, exactly. Lisa: It's very brilliant. And I'm, again, just so grateful that you were able to find the space and the heart space, really, to write that. So if people want to get a hold of your book, is it on Amazon? Todd Yeah, it. Yeah, if you go on Amazon ca. Or it's on some other websites and stuff, too. Yeah. Sometimes daddy cries. I wanted to add real quick that something I didn't expect with the book was opening up that conversation with the mother and the father, because probably 99% of the people that bought the book are females. So it's the mother or it's the mother of a child whose husband is suffering. Because for whatever reason, men. I don't know what it is. I talk about mental health all the time, and it's like 80% or 85% of my audience is female. And so it's like, I think men don't even know it's the problem because they either are drinking it away or getting angry. They don't realize their anger is actually depression or anxiety. Or whatever, so they don't even realize they're suffering anyway. That was a very interesting thing with the book, was finding that. Lisa: Absolutely. And maybe we'll come back and we'll do another podcast another time. But I think you critters, you males are absolute masters at a word I can never say. Compartmentalization, it's a big word and you just are able to put it somewhere. Push it down. I mean, not effectively. You don't get bonus points for doing that. But it's something that I think men do do, and I read something or heard something that we simple, right? We get better at what we do. So the more we push down, the better we get at pushing it down. The more we talk about it, the better we get at talking about it. So you know what? You are doing this world so much good by being a male voice speaking to mental health. And I know that eventually things will change and more men will know, opening up to this whole concept of doing the work. So I cannot thank you enough Todd for being here today, being vulnerable, sharing your story in such a raw and real way. Friends, make sure to check out Todd's podcast called Bunny Hugs and mental health. And make sure to follow him on Instagram at Bunny Hugs podcast. Stay well and be resilient and we'll catch you next time.

Welcome back! I am joined by author, award winning business executive (Capital CIO ORBIE Winner, National Corp. InspireCIO Finalist), and transformational CIO of Dewberry, Lisa Roger.   With over 28 years of experience in various industries, roles, and organizations, Lisa has held executive IT positions in companies servicing healthcare, retail, telecommunications, and state and local organizations.  Due to her success, she has recently wrote and published a book, “The Joy Factor: Escaping Job Disappointment and Finding Your Dream Career,” that shares her fascinating journey to finding the ‘joy factor' in her life with the intention of coaching others to find their own joy.   Here are some of the top takeaways you'll receive from this episode:   How to professionally brand yourself and avoid imposter syndrome  Investing in leadership within your organization  Joy is an ‘inside out' game first and not ‘outside in'  Working with millennials: how to avoid change fatigue, quiet quitting, etc.  How to find your joy, confront your destiny, and add value  Board awareness and succession planning  The importance of networking and building relationships   As a CIO and Business IT Leader here are More wins you will get by listening:  5:18 Bill- “When did you discover what your real superpower is and your real strengths?”  6:00 Lisa- “What I really realized was how I could bring people together, how I could problem solve for a mission, keep people focused on it, do team building in critical moments where tensions are high and get results.”  6:21 Lisa- “Building teams and going into dysfunctional organizations and making them functional. Restoring pride is one of the things I love doing.”  7:16 Bill- “What is the genesis of your book, The Joy Factor? What actually started you thinking about writing it?”  7:44 Lisa- “It was my nieces and nephews who are millennials. They were entering the workforce and felt this deep sense of being unsatisfied and being disappointed and not being able to make that difference.”  8:08 Lisa- “I went through the same journey and if there was some way I could accelerate them to a place where their joy factor is way bigger now and they could have control. How can we systematically do that?”  9:08 Bill- “Do you find that that's an issue with hiring millennials within your company and other companies as well?”  9:24 Lisa- “Indeed. I look at the great resignation and quiet quitting. People are trying to find their own way so they can have control back, whether that's the hours of the day or how you work. Today's influences transcends millennials now.”  10:09 Lisa- “How could you add value in the organization that you're at right now that is going to bring you joy?”  10:31 Bill- “The whole message of the book is an inside out. The joy starts with the individual.”  11:06 Lisa- “Joy does come within your own happiness. It's a mindset. You can only control you.”  11:47 Lisa- “Don't assume what is in other people's brains. Assume good. Apply yourself in ways that are fulfilling who you are.”  12:45 Lisa- “I found journaling to be an excellent tool. Articulate in black and white what changes and life events are happening. Let's write everything down and start there.”  13:31 Lisa- “Let's systematically move things over from a negative to the positive column and reframe our mind and look for opportunities that are going to be giving you more exposure to that joy.”  14:20 Lisa- “The last negative thing you're exposed to often has the most power in your brain. But if you force yourself to write down the most wonderful things that happened to you in a day, really dissect it. What were you doing? Why did it bring you joy? Were you coaching? Problem solving? Were you just listening? Be very mindful and specific about what brought you joy.”  17:25 Bill- “In your book, what do you mean by the acceleration of joy?”  17:32 Lisa- “It's how do you get to that place where your joy factor is overwhelming the not so good factor. How do you get there quicker?”  17:41 Lisa- “The most powerful thing you can do it let people know. If you don't tell people what your aspirations are, how can they help you get there?”  19:21 Lisa- “Look at how you're branding yourself, not only from a professional perspective but to your resume, your LinkedIn profile, etc. You have got to let people know what you want to do.”  23:20 Lisa- “We have a national crisis which is baby boomers retiring. The next generation is very small. Then the millennials who are much bigger but are quiet quitting, working hybrid, in the gig economy. They're not necessarily going through the same leadership journey that previous generations went through.”  24:32 Lisa- “It is all about just defining our leadership companies within the organization, what opportunities can we bring to people, what are we doing for succession planning, etc.”  26:44 Lisa- “If we invest in everyone from a leadership perspective, then we're all going to benefit.”  27: 43 Bill- “What percentage of your time each week is really dedicated each month to efforts around that particular leadership journey?”  32:12 Bill- “What differentiates the new people coming into the organizations versus the ones that don't make it through?”  32:54 Lisa- “The ability to have dialogue around change management and communication culture. Are they going to add value in a way that makes them happy?”  35:06 Lisa- “I think the biggest opportunity lost is creating healthy relationships where they're at and creating powerful networks.”  35:41 Lisa- “Being the CIO is one of the most unique positions where you get to touch every piece of the organization.”  40:15 Lisa- “There is some fear when it comes to the change that's happening in the world. Be grounded in your own self-worth. Be purposeful, have the right mindset, and you'll feel a sense of control that will give you the leverage to do the right things.”    Resources  Lisa Roger's LinkedIn  “The Joy Factor: Escaping Job Disappointment and Finding Your Dream Career”  Women in Business Initiative- George Mason University 

The Donor Conception Conversations Podcast is here!  Watch every Monday on YouTube or listen, subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.  In this episode of donor conception conversations, our guest, Wendy Kramer, will bust donor conception myths and teach you about connecting with donors and donor siblings (and how it doesn't have to be scary).  She is the founder of the Donor Sibling Registry and has single-handedly moved the needle on disclosure and donor conception openness.   If you are interested in any of the topics discussed in this episode... Subscribe to the YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@thecenterforfamilybuilding You can also find me and lots of great resources at https://familybuilding.net/ Join our community, We would love to have you. https://familybuilding.net/newsletter-sign-up/ Follow me here: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecenterforfamilybuilding/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecenterforfamilybuilding/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/FamilyBuild TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@familybuildingcenter Looking for My Lifebook? https://a.co/d/deSACrM   Transcript: (disclaimer: may contain unintentionally inaccurate, confusing, and/or amusing transcription errors)   Wendy: All of these parents, all of these contributors make a child who they are. Right. So when you realize that, then inviting in the rest of the contributors that you might not know, it's not threatening. They're not going to take your place. Your kid isn't going to like them better. You know, or I don't know, maybe they will, because kids like lots of people better than their parents, you know?   Wendy: It's not a real fear. So I think the most important thing for parents to know is that this can be something an enriching thing for families, not a fearful thing. There's really nothing to fear. Nobody wants to come in and be a parent to your kids. And half-siblings are enriching you know, the more people to love your kids, the better.   Lisa: Hi, I am Lisa Shuman and welcome to Donor Conception Conversations. This is a one podcast that will provide research based information, professional guidance and personal experiences about donor conception. This is the one place you can go to if you are a recipient or if you are considering being a recipient. If it's about donor conception, we are going to talk about it.   Lisa: I'm your host, Lisa Shuman. I've been practicing as a therapist for three decades. I've won awards for my research, and I've seen thousands and thousands of donors, recipients and donor conceived children in my workshops at clinics and at my program, the Center for Family Building. I've learned so much over the decades, and I want to share that information with you so you can have a better journey and be more informed as a parent.   Lisa: Today is the first episode, so welcome and I couldn't have a better guest. Wendy Kramer For those of you who don't know Wendy, she's the founder of the Donor Sibling Registry, and she has single handedly changed so much of our understanding about donor conception and changed so many lives by helping people connect with their donors and the donor-related siblings.   Lisa: Her business was born from her personal experience and since its inception, she has witnessed the experiences of thousands of others around the world. Wendy, welcome. Can you provide us with a little bit more of an introduction and tell us how the Donor Sibling Registry came to be.   Wendy: Surely. So first, thanks for having me. I'm honored to be guest number one. So let's see, the nutshell version of my story is that I was married in the late 1980s. My ex-husband experienced fertility issues, so we used a donor, an unknown person, back in 1989. And in 1990, my son Ryan was born. About a year later, my ex-husband and I split up.   Wendy: He was completely out of the picture. So basically from that time on, I raised my son as an only parent. There was only one book out at the time about donor conception called Lethal Secrets by Annette Barron. And in the book she talked about the importance of being honest with your child. And I had thought that maybe when my son was four, five, six years old, he might start asking.   Wendy: As it happens, he was about he was two and a half years old, came home from preschool and said, so did my dad die or what? And it was then I went, Oh my God, we're having this conversation. And we laid the very important cornerstone conversation of, you know, the sperm and the egg. And it was about a 40 second conversation.   Wendy: Then he went on to ask the next question about choo choo trains. And so basically that was the beginning and it was the cornerstone conversation that we then could build upon as he got older and had more questions then as it would be. My son was a very curious child and by the time he was six years old he was looking at me saying, I want to know who my biological father is.   Wendy: And at that point, I'm thinking, Oh my God, what have I done? What do I do? Like, of course you're curious, you know, and it just I think I was one of those people, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this. I was so desperate to be a parent, I really didn't think about anything else but getting pregnant.   Wendy: And I think a lot of doctors and clinics and sperm banks are all so focused on the getting pregnant that the other important stuff, the other important information that you should have to make an informed and educated decision. Those things just fall off the track there. So at that point realized my son had a right to be curious and a right to search for and find his close genetic relatives, his biological father and any half siblings he might have.   Wendy: We basically at that point. So that would have been 1996 or so. We had to wait for social media to be invented. And finally, in 2000, Yahoo! Groups came to be and we started a little Yahoo! Group thinking that maybe we could help him find the answers he was looking for. And then maybe in the process help, you know, maybe one or two families find their half siblings or their biological parents, the donors.   Wendy: And that was the beginning of the DSR in 2000 and now 22 years later, we have almost 84,000 members in more than 100 countries and we've helped to connect almost 24,000 of them with half siblings or donors with their biological children. So it was one of those like build it and they will come kind of things like we didn't know there was a need until we put it out there.   Wendy: And obviously there was a great desire and a need. I think, before we came along. People were never told that they had the right to be curious or the right to search for genetic relatives. This whole industry is so shrouded in secrecy and thereby shame, you know, the shame of infertility, the shame of using a donor. And we kind of busted all that open and said, there's nothing to be ashamed of, especially for donor conceived kids.   Wendy: And it's an innate human desire to want to know where you come from, your ancestry, your medical background, and your close genetic relatives.   Lisa: Mm hmm. It's amazing Wendy amazing. So while we're thinking about that, maybe you can help our audience know a little bit about something else that I think is really important as you're sharing this information about having donor relatives that people get really tripped up about, and I think very few people have the accurate information about and that is the lack of a tracking system here in the US.   Wendy: Well, yeah, I think that myth is perpetuated by the reproductive medicine industry, the sperm banks, the egg clinics, the egg agencies who claim to have limits on the number of kids that can be born for anyone donor. So that's really misleading because if you tell people you have limits, that leads one to believe you have accurate records and you know how many kids are out there.   Wendy: And the truth is that no, nobody has accurate records, even in the egg industry where they claim that SART has all records. Not true, because in our egg donor research, our egg donor parent research, we found that more than 40% of egg donor families were never even asked to report their births. So those numbers are not correct. And we certainly know in the sperm donation industry where now we have many groups of half siblings, over 100 on the DSR or some even over 200.   Wendy: Now those groups are growing and growing and growing that there is no accurate record keeping because that costs money. Whenever you ask in this industry, why is it like this or how come they don't do this or why won't this happen? Always the same answer one word money. It costs money to keep accurate records. It would cost money then to limit the number of offspring.   Wendy: They wouldn't make as much money by selling all that sperm. Yeah. The fallacy is when we promise a number of families, we know in our research too, about a quarter of all sperm donors donate to more than one place. So even if in the future they became they had accurate record keeping, which, you know, I'll believe it when I see it.   Wendy: You know, sperm donors go all over, egg donors do to we have serial sperm donors and egg donors that just go from facility to facility. So for donor conceived people, nobody knows how many half siblings you might have. And I tell this to my son and all donor conceived people every single day for the rest of your life holds the possibility of a half sibling coming along.   Lisa: Yes. And what about also we have all these embryos that have been frozen for decades. Right. And last year, I think there was a child born from a 31 year old embryo and last year a 27 year old embryo. So we have hundreds of thousands of frozen embryos and we don't know how many of them were part of a donor sperm donor egg.   Lisa: And we don't know how many of them will be born now or decades from now. And so it's not really possible to have that information either, right.   Wendy: Well, this is what happens when you have a multi-billion dollar industry with no regulation and no oversight. Right. Like what could possibly go wrong? A lot. But it's because there's no regulation and no oversight. Nobody's watching. Nobody cares to look over this industry. And that is in part because the SRM, the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, keeps it that way.   Wendy: They're big money, they're powerful. They have lobbyists, and they keep any and all regulation record keeping anything that would move this industry into being more responsible or ethical. They put the kibosh on. They do not want anything to change.   Lisa: Well, let's talk about I mean, you know, in terms of the states, I mean, there are a lot of people who are advocating for these states to say we're going to regulate in our state and the states will say, yes, we're going to enact legislation that will allow us to regulate. But it can't be possible because those states cannot enact regulation.   Lisa: How is the state going to be able to do that if there's no way to track donors?   Wendy: Well, exactly. So I guess in that case, I can't say it could never happen. I'll just say I'll believe it when I see it.   Lisa: Right. And so I think the tough part is that there are so many people who get on this bandwagon of the state, or that state is going to enact legislation to track donors. How can they possibly do that? Right. I mean, I'm sure you see a lot of people donating right through Facebook and social media traveling around the world and donating in other countries.   Lisa: Right. And so how are we going to know? How can one state saying, I'm going to track all the donors who have ever been in this state? I don't I don't know how that's possible.   Wendy: Well, it's not possible with the record keeping that exists right now.   Lisa: Right. There's no state to do that. And it is completely.   Wendy: It's not even possible because they don't have the records. You know, this industry has an amazing amount of floods and fires. Floods and fires like you could not believe where so many records have been lost. So it is so common for people to ask for records, either donor conceived people or the donors themselves or parents and the records are there offsite.   Wendy: They're lost. They were ruined in a flood. They had a fire. So there's all the excuses that people get all the time for not having accurate records. But the bottom line is there are no accurate records. So, you know, that's where we are today. Could they become accurate in the future? Sure. They could become accurate at any time.   Wendy: But the industry refuses to put the money and the time into being more ethical and responsible by having accurate records. They just won't do it. It's not like they're unable. Sure, they're able. They just don't do it right.   Lisa: But I see many civilians who say, well, this state I'd like to use a donor from the state because the state is making efforts to enact legislation that would allow them to track records of donors. And I can't see how any one state could do that. No. Yeah. So it's really good for our listeners to understand that don't go to any particular state thinking that that's going to happen in that state because it's it's not possible.   Lisa: Right.   Wendy: It's state and it's also clinic or sperm bank.   Lisa: Right.   Wendy: So the clinics and the sperm banks are going to tell you everything you want to hear so that they can make a sale. Their job is to sell eggs and sell sperm. So if you go on their websites, you'll read a lot of information. That is not true because it's all marketing materials. It's all about making the sale.   Wendy: You know, we have, you know, celebrity lookalike donors. We limit the number of kids to ten or 20 or whatever. And it's it's just none of it is true. It's just all marketing materials.   Lisa: And they can tell their own donors not to donate a certain more than a certain amount of time. But just because they tell the donors doesn't mean the donors are going to do it. As you said, they can go to multiple agencies. They can donate to their friends, they can donate in other countries. So it's really important for our listeners to understand that because they really need to be able to be clear with their children.   Lisa: Which brings me to my next point, which I think you could speak to our audience about, which is about donor related siblings and how it's so important for people to start to understand is hard as it may be to understand that it doesn't have to be scary to start to search if this is something that they feel ready to do.   Wendy: Yeah, I think let's talk about that. But I think to give proper context here, we have to take a step or two back and go, why are the parents in this situation? Right. So why does this industry still mandate and promote the idea of keeping a human being from their close genetic relatives for 18 years? Nowhere in the world, nowhere in history has any society deemed that it is in the best interests of the people to keep them from their close genetic relatives for 18 years.   Wendy: So why is that accepted practice in the sperm and eggs killing industry? I don't well, actually, I do know, again, it's money, right. Because they're going to put more money.   Lisa: Well, we saw the same thing in adoption for many years. And adoption systems saying, you know, tell your children that your parents died in a fiery car crash and, you know, don't ever tell them. And then, of course, those adult adoptees grew up and said, you know, that's not right. And it's kind of we're kind of following the same story.   Lisa: Well, but.   Wendy: We've learned the reproductive medicine industry learned nothing from the world of adoption because they're still doing it. Decades later, they're still doing it. So they're doing it because obviously it makes more money. But the parents are sold this idea along with the gametes, so that we believe keeping our child from their close genetic relatives for 18 years is somehow in their best interests.   Wendy: Right. And the whole thing the whole premise is crazy. So I think that's where we have to start. Like these parents are where they're at when contemplating connecting with donor siblings. They're there because of an industry that has promoted this whacky idea and sold it and made it mandatory that my child could not know his genetic relatives before he turned 18, which is absolutely insane.   Wendy: There is no research that points to that being in anyone's best interest. Most specifically donor conceived people, and quite a lot of research that says it is in the donor conceived child's best interest to grow up knowing their relatives. Right. We don't keep our children from their cousins or their answer uncles or grandparents until they're 18 or until they ask about them.   Wendy: They're the relatives and we introduce them, you know, when they're kids, because that's the right thing to do. So I guess I have to like just throw this question in there. Why is this okay? Why do people just take this as being accepted practice and in the child's best interest when it's obviously not so? So that said, here we are.   Wendy: We now have thousands, millions of people who have donor conceived children, who have these have siblings, other children who were born from the same egg or sperm donors. Right. So I guess let's take one step back now. At the beginning, when you're buying your sperm or your eggs, there's an opportunity for the vendor, the sperm bank or the egg clinic or the agency to properly counsel and educate you on the importance of a child growing up, knowing their close genetic relatives, knowing about their ancestry, knowing about their medical history.   Wendy: But the industry is failing parents and donors with not properly counseling and educating them on the importance of these connections. Because if people were properly counseled and educated at the front door to that clinic, they would not opt for the 18 years of anonymity. They would do what we have now dozens of egg clinics doing, connect the donors and the parents right from pregnancy or birth.   Wendy: Why not? And yet there are still not. One sperm bank will do that, and the majority of egg clinics in the U.S. still won't do that. And we have to ask why, if it's in everybody's best interest to empower parents and donors to be in control of their own relations chip rate from day one and determine the depth and the breadth.   Wendy: Maybe it's just medical sharing. Maybe it's becoming family to one another. But let the people decide that. Not a middleman saying we know what's best for you and your family and that is to keep you apart for 18 years. To me, absolutely insane. But here we are.   Lisa: Well, let me ask you a question. This is something that I've experienced. And you tell me if you've experienced this. So as you I think, you know, I started one of the only open donor programs at a seen inside of a clinic on the East Coast that I know of. And typically, when I talk to parents or parents to be about the possibility of having an open relationship with their donor, and as you said, there's various levels of openness.   Lisa: So there's all sorts of options. Very often they're afraid that that donor is going to be, all of a sudden, a parent to their child. Right. There's like this anxiety. It's about the infertility and the fears and anxieties. But then when I speak with the donors, very often the donors say the same things to me. They say, well, you know, I really don't want to be a parent to this child.   Lisa: And so it's interesting that both of them, in my experience, I see over and over again, feel like they have to kind of be let off the hook for things.   Wendy: Because this is the myth that perpetuates by the reproductive medicine industry. Parents are told, Oh, you need this eight years of anonymity because that donor is going to want to be a parent to your child. And donors are told, Oh, you want this? 18 years of anonymity. Those parents are going to come looking for you for money and they're going to want you to parent their child.   Wendy: In reality, none of those things are true. Where did those people get those fears from? From the industry. So the industry can't wonder why these people feel this way is because these are the myths that the industry perpetuates. And I know I hear from egg donors all the time who say my clinic told me that, you know, parents are likely to come after me, they're going to disrupt my life and invade my privacy.   Wendy: Parents are told that donors are going to want to come in and be a part of your life and parent your child a myth and a myth. But this is the myth that's perpetuated so that the industry can keep the 18 year separation there. And people can think that's in the best interest for them and their children. But it's all myth.   Lisa: And then in reality, what happens and you tell me what happens in your reality. Once I... I break that myth for them and they decide, okay, we're going to meet the recipients are so happy and the donors all of a sudden where they once would have had, let's say, you know, an egg donor is going to have this medical procedure and she knows she's doing something nice for another family.   Lisa: And now she sees the faces of these people whose lives she is changing. And she says, Oh, my God, I feel like this is such greater meaning for me. This feels so much better for me because I see these people. I really feel that I'm helping them. I really feel like I'm helping them heal these wounds and build their family that feel so much better to be able to connect with them so everybody makes out.   Lisa: It's been great for everyone involved, but they are so hesitant in the beginning and so anxious about it. So what are your experiences of recipients and donors after they first meet? What's their experience of saying, you know, how was my first meeting and how is it different than last year?   Wendy: Well, yeah. Let me take one step back and let's talk about what is that hesitation and that fear? What keeps families from not connecting? Right. And most usually what keeps families from not connecting is some kind of fear. Right. And the fear usually is from the non-biological parent, be it the mom, an egg donor family, the dad in a sperm donor family, or the mom in the LGBTQ family.   Wendy: Right. It's the Non-Bio parent that most too often struggles with making these connections because it can feel very threatening to them. These people are that person has a connection with my child that I don't myself have. And if you're not a really confident person and secure in your parenthood, this can seem like a threat. This person is going to come in and usurp me and be insecure and I can't be right.   Wendy: Again, this is all a myth, too. We're not taking away from a family by connecting. We're just adding to. So children need to be taught that who they are is this wonderful blend of nature and nurture. Right? We are who we are because of the parents that raised us and love us and take care of us and the parents that give us our biology.   Wendy: 50% from the egg, 50% from the sperm. That's what makes us who we are. So to minimize any one of those contributors is not fair to a child. It matters who raises them and loves them. But it also matters who gave the DNA, the egg and the sperm. So you can't minimize or negate the importance of any of those parents.   Wendy: So once. Once you realize that all the parents are important, at the same time, one is not knocking the other one out. One is not taking the place of the other. All of these parents, all of these contributors make a child who they are. Right. So when you realize that, then inviting in the rest of the contributors that you might not know, it's not threatening.   Wendy: They're not going to take your place. Your kid isn't going to like them better, you know, or I don't know, maybe they will, because kids like lots of people better than their parents, you know, it's not a real fear. So I think the most important thing for parents to know is that this can be something an enriching thing for families, not a fearful thing.   Wendy: There's really nothing to fear. Nobody wants to come in and be a parent to your kids. And half siblings are enriching. You know, the more people to love your kids, the better. Right. I mean, that's that was my thinking.   Lisa: Who doesn't want different siblings in the ones they have anyway, right?   Wendy: Absolutely.   Lisa: Brother, little sister.   Wendy: Totally. So, you know, and it's like, is there a guarantee you're going to like them? No. I mean, I always tell people, look around your Thanksgiving table. Do you want to hang out with everybody there? No, probably not. You want to hang out and spend time with the people that you're most like minded with. And this is true for connections for the parents who connect their, you know, minor donor conceived kids, for donors who are connecting with adult donor conceived kids, for parents connecting with other parents for everybody.   Wendy: Is there a guarantee you're going to like each other and want to hang out? Nope. But that doesn't make these people any less your child's genetic relatives. And did they have the right to know these people as they're growing up? Absolutely. Why? Why would you keep them from their half siblings? You know, because we have too many people that come to the DSR as adults.   Wendy: They see that their parents joined the DSR years ago but never allowed them to connect and know they're half siblings. And so you get these adult donor conceived people who are like, okay, wait a minute, I could have grown up knowing my half siblings and you didn't let me. Why? And there is no good answer. Except I was afraid.   Wendy: I had fears, I was insecure, I was feeling threatened. You know what I mean?   Lisa: So now we allay those fears. What is your experience with the recipients when they finally meet them? Don't they feel so much better that you know, it wasn't securing after all?   Wendy: That's the same with disclosure. You know, for parents who haven't told, who are about to tell, they're in a state of fear like none I have ever seen before. They are filled with anxiety and panic about the impending telling the child. The truth. And I see that fear and that anxiety with the impending connecting with my donor or connecting with my biological kids, parents or connecting with half sibling families.   Wendy: There's this anxiety that is there that really doesn't need to be there because that's the worst part, is the before. Once the connection happens, oh my God, people are elated and joyful and relieved to and excited about what the future might hold and, you know, it's all completely positive.   Lisa: Yes, absolutely. And I hope that our audience can kind of take heart that that can happen, that they can feel that it's not so scary after all, that once they connect with these donor conceived siblings or the donors, that it won't be this fear that someone's going to come into your life or do things that you don't want them to do that, you know, just like everybody else, like Wendy is saying, you know, there's some people you're going to like, some people you don't.   Lisa: But it's not their normal people. They're average everyday people just like we are. And it's such a nice thing to be able to gift and to give to your children that connects. It really is beautiful.   Wendy: Absolutely. Well, in these groups, some people are really afraid of the large groups of siblings. Right. Like, okay, I could connect with five or seven or ten. You know, I just logged into the DSR and I see that I have 78 half brothers and sisters. Oh, my God, what do I do? Or my child has 78 half brothers and sisters.   Wendy: Oh, my God. They're overwhelmed. They're afraid. What does this mean? Am I going to have, you know, dozens of people knocking on my front door? And no, everybody's extremely respectful. The people who have already connected usually they have like a welcoming committee, you know, of sorts, like they make soft landing pad for the new half siblings that come along these connections happen.   Wendy: Like you as a parent or a donor conceived person or a donor, you are in control of this feed in the depths of how you make these connections. Right. So there's no right way or wrong way. Some people are like, Well, I'll just communicate via donor sibling registry message or email or Facebook for a little bit. Some people are like, Here's my phone number.   Wendy: Let's meet at Starbucks tomorrow, you know, so there's different levels of feeling comfortable again, no right way or wrong way, but it's just important to make the connection for the minimum of sharing and updating medical information because of if you're saying right now, oh, well, my clinic or my sperm bank does regular medical updates, and then they give anyone who's to use that donor updated medical information.   Wendy: That is 100% incorrect information. Most of the time, the only way to get updated medical information is by connecting the donors with the parents, with the donor conceived people. That's how you're going to get medical information, not from your clinic, not from your sperm bank.   Lisa: 100%. I'm with you. And maybe on our next call, we should start talking about that because that is a really, really important topic for people to understand, particularly because, you know, people say, oh, my daughter is healthy. Well, you know, young, young people usually are healthy. But health changes over time. And if you don't know what's happening with your donor conceived siblings or your donor, how will you know?   Lisa: Right. So those are really important pieces of information. And so I hope you come back on again. Wendy, I really love to have you back.   Wendy: Thank you so much for having me. And I can't wait to tackle these issues one by one and help to better educate people.   Lisa: It's wonderful. You're a gift to our industry, Wendy, and thank you so much for coming. And if you want more information, please to go on the Donor Sibling Registry. Is there any information for people to look for?   Wendy: Come to the Donor Sibling Registry or I'm always available. My email is wendy@donorsiblingregistry.com and I'm available seven days a week. If you need any help, just email me. Call me. I'll be in touch.   Lisa: That's great. Well, thank you. And that's such a gift. And I really appreciate it. And I'm sure everybody who's listening appreciates this. And thank you for joining us. If you want more, please subscribe and review and always you can find us on family building dot net. We'd love to have you as part of our community. Thanks so much.

Overview Lisa Solod has been writing since the age of eight and publishing since the age of seventeen. Her award-winning short fiction and essays have been published in dozens of literary journals and anthologies and has appeared in literary journals, anthologies, magazines and online, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, Lilith, The Boston Globe, The Boston Herald. Her essay “Black Boots for the End of the World” was a Notable essay in Best American Essays 2012. Four of her novels have been shortlisted for  major fiction prizes and many of her short stories have been contest finalists. With pained honesty tempered by well-exercised empathy, Lisa Solod's debut novel Shivah: A Novel from Memory connects deeply to the challenges of family and faith, and the potential for growth and peace. Constructed in seven parts to mimic the seven days of shivah, the Jewish period of mourning wherein the mourners enter the home of the bereaved and sit and pray with them, Shivah is an exploration of difficult family relationships, of mental health, and of negotiating selfhood in the face of adversity. Her Book https://www.amazon.com/Shivah-Lisa-Solod/dp/1938841727?crid=MNSPG4HNQI6N&keywords=shivah+lisa+solod&qid=1662570619&sprefix=shivah+lisa+solod%2Caps%2C225&sr=8-1&linkCode=li2&tag=discoveredwordsmiths-20&linkId=53a4807c8ca2cca8a9185c46603a13d0&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_il Overview https://lisasolod.com Favorites https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004VMV4YY?&linkCode=li2&tag=discoveredwordsmiths-20&linkId=3ded04232507546311420a382a75ebf2&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_il YouTube https://youtu.be/1cDAt9_pGTg Transcript I have Lisa Sok. Who's gonna talk to us about her nav. Shva Lisa, how you doing today? I'm okay. Thank you. Yeah, doing good. I've got rainy weather. Where are you at? What do you have? I'm Lisa: in Savannah. So it's it's hot, but it's sunny until we have almost a shower every day, but nice right now. Stephen: It's gorgeous. Nice. I actually paradise. I, I. There was supposed to be a writer retreat in Savannah this year. That didn't happen. Some someone up here that runs those. So it would've been nice to go visit. I haven't been down to that area for quite a while. Lisa: It's gorgeous. It is. Stephen: Yeah. Lisa, before we talk about your book tell us a little bit about you and your background and some of the things you like to do. Lisa: I I majored in something offbeat in college, I majored in semiotics, which was a hip linguistics thing many years ago. But what it let me do was read and write, which was the two things I wanted to do more than anything. And so I did those and I've always been a reader. And so it was really fun for me to be in school and be able to discuss books with other people and professors, and also to do, to parse them in ways that I wasn't familiar with. That was great. I think I always knew I would write I always, but I wasn't quite sure what I would write at any given time. I've always written fiction. But first thing I did when I got out of college was I worked as a magazine editor and writer. And so that was great, right? It was a not only did I make a living, but it also taught me a lot about deadlines and editing versus writing, write writing versus editing how to craft something for another writer that sounded like them, but was better. So now I've heard, Stephen: I've heard from a lot of other authors that did some journalism, did some magazines and articles and nonfiction and all that, that even though they write fiction, now, the skills you learned doing the newspaper, the journal, whatever really applied and helped you with the writing is you find that to be very true. Lisa: Absolutely. Because anything you publish and anything you work on is something that you're proud of and you've finished and that can only improve all of your writing. I don't think I, I still write essays.

What You'll Hear In This Episode:How does an avoidant man's behavior shift from the beginning of dates to when things get a little more comfortable? What makes an avoidant man want to get in a relationship in the first place? Women rationalize this behavior more when he's “nice”.These nice avoidants seem to have every piece except for the consistent interest and commitment, keeping a woman sticking around and hoping he will change. In the Emotionally Naked Dating course, you'll hearn how to ask the right questions to move things forward for a future together, or if they're going to bolt. Movies and TV shows give us false ideals by showing super avoidant men magically changing their whole lifestyle if/when the right woman walks by. That isn't real.Just because things are better than your last relationship, doesn't mean it's the best option for you. Are you settling for less than what you deserve?How coaching can help you look for consistency, healthy progression of the relationship, and words and actions that match. When a man shuts down, it's important to remember it has nothing to do with you.Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With LisaEmail the podcast at: podcast@lisashield.comMentioned:Crazy, Stupid, Love. (2011, film)Quotes:“When you are a woman who has done some work, you can see ‘oh, this man is avoidant. Things have changed.' ” - Cassie “It's almost like they have one foot in– but they're not really in.” - Lisa“It takes work on the man's part, not just the right woman walking past.” - Lisa“One of the things we work on in the course is actually encouraging our women to ask questions and push things forward to see if this is just monogamous dating, or if there's really a future there.” - Lisa “The most important thing to look for is consistency and behavior over time, progression of the relationship, and that words and actions match.” - Lisa “When the man shuts down or to the extent that he shuts down, it's important to remember it has nothing to do with you.” - Lisa

What You'll Hear In This Episode:Lisa talks about the difference in how she used to receive criticism, and the way she receives it today.How you can become more confident with your stronger qualities, and the things you struggle with as well.Nobody is perfect, and that should make you feel better about embracing who you are as an authentic, flawed, but beautiful human.Lisa talks about seeing the qualities from her father in herself, and the challenge to make an intentional effort to be her highest self, instead.Before you find the Guardian of Your Soul, you need to really grow up and be honest with yourself.Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With LisaEmail the podcast at: podcast@lisashield.comMentioned:Yogananda Paramahansa"The Law of Success"Eckhart Tolle  Quotes“There was so much I had to look at about myself and really take ownership for.” - Lisa“I'm an earthy person. And I really am grounded, you know, that's one of my qualities.” - Lisa“It forced me to really grow up, to be honest with myself in a way that I had never been honest before, to rip off band aids.” - Lisa

With Lisa Lapides Sawicki, Certified Life Coach   Have you ever set a realistic and attainable self improvement goal only to find your progress blocked before you ever achieved that goal?  If you find your answer is “yes” to that question, was the obstacle preventing your success within your control?  If so, you might be guilty of self sabotage.  When a person consciously or unconsciously hinders their own success through destructive words or behavior, that is called self sabotage.  We all have moments in our life where something doesn't turn out as planned, but self sabotage occurs when we get in the way of our own progress.  There are many reasons why someone might unknowingly do this.  For example, fear of failure can be so overwhelming that it causes a person to quit before someone else sees them fail.  For others, the fear of success might be the cause.  The thought of actually attaining that long desired goal creates a state of fear or anxiety because now they feel they might not be able to live up to those expectations.  There are many reasons why we get in the way of our own progress, but if you know it's happening you can sometimes stop yourself from sabotaging your chances for success.   My guest today is certified Life Coach,Lisa Lapides Sawicki.  We speak with Lisa about what causes us to sabotage ourselves and more importantly how we can learn to overcome these self destructive impulses.   What You'll Hear on This Episode:   What is self sabotage?   What are some examples of self sabotage? Can others sabotage you? What is the “monkey mind”? Can positive self talk help people overcome self sabotage? Why do people break others down in their quest to succeed? Has Lisa ever self sabotaged? How habits can contribute to self sabotage. How do people sabotage romantic relationships? What is cognitive dissonance? How do we learn to stop self sabotaging? How do we live a more “normal” life?   Today's Takeaway:  A fear of commitment, low self esteem, or feeling undeserving of happiness or success, are just some of the reasons why we deliberately sabotage ourselves.  If you're always missing out on that dream job, or if that happy long term relationship is just out of reach, maybe it's time to ask yourself, “Are you the obstacle?”  There is nothing shameful in admitting we might be sabotaging ourselves.  You may need help in overcoming these behaviors, but think of it as an opportunity to learn and grow so you can finally be happy to live the life you deserve every day.  Stop putting things off, stop procrastinating!  The future you dream of starts now.  Set a realistic and attainable goal for yourself and go after it!  Put together a road map outlining each of the steps along your journey to success.  Instead of taking actions that undermine your progress, hold yourself accountable by sharing your progress with your support team at every step of the journey.  Celebrate every small victory and be proud of your accomplishments.  If you do that consistently and enjoy each small step daily, you'll be well on your way to realizing your dream.  Remember, every day is a gift and the gift we get from changing our behavior to ensure that we accomplish our goals is a gift that will keep on giving.  You too can realize your dreams and build the life you've always dreamed of for yourself.  I'm Florine Mark and that's “Today's Takeaway.”   Quotes: “Self sabotage is when we actively, or passively, or unconsciously, think thoughts and take actions, or no actions, that absolutely sabotage our success.” - Lisa “For some people they really have regrets, big regrets, when they don't account for something that they have continued to self sabotage their whole life.” - Lisa “It's not about the outside world; it's working with who you are.” - Lisa “The inner talk is our world.” - Lisa “It all starts with the inner talk.” - Lisa “It takes a really strong person to not fall prey to the criticisms and the judgements of other people.” - Lisa  “I can have the feast and the fun without the excess.” - Lisa “Insecurity is why people will self sabotage a loving relationship.” - Lisa “Make a custom design plan that's doable for you.” - Lisa “Mistakes are lessons to be learned.” - Lisa Brought to You By: Gardner White Furniture   Mentioned in This Episode: Lisa Sawicki

Lisa Thompson is a Mountaineer, cancer survivor, and sought-after speaker and coach. She worked for 25 years as an engineer and in leadership roles at technology companies. In 2008, she began climbing and has summited most of the most challenging mountains in the world, including Mount Everest and K2. She's completed the seven summits reaching the top of the highest peak of each of the seven continents. Through her company, Alpine Athletics, and other platforms, Lisa shares her message of strength and resilience with corporate and private groups worldwide. She is also the author of “Finding Elevation” which chronicles her path from novice climber to world class mountain. Learn more about Lisa. Learn more about The Passionistas Project.   Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their Passionistas to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Lisa Thompson, a mountaineer, cancer survivor and sought-after speaker and coach. Lisa worked for 25 years as an engineer and in leadership roles at technology companies. In 2008, she began climbing and has summited most of the most challenging mountains in the world, including Mount Everest and K2. She's completed the seven summits reaching the top of the highest peak of each of the seven continents. Through her company, Alpine Athletics and other platforms. Lisa shares her message of strength and resilience with corporate and private groups worldwide. She is also the author of “Finding Elevation,” which chronicles Thompson's path from novice climber to world class mountain. So please welcome to the show. Lisa Thompson. Lisa: Great to be here. Thanks for having me today. Passionistas: We're really excited to have you here and hear your story. And, uh, we always like to start with the question. What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Lisa: Right now, I think this has changed over the years. I'm sure that's just the normal progression of a life, but right now I am most passionate about giving back to. Women in the communities that I love communities in Nepal and in Pakistan where I've, you know, really feel at home in the mountains and have spent a lot of time and have great memories there. And it's important to me to give back to those communities, especially the women. I recently started a nonprofit to support women in Nepal and specifically to support their education. It was shocking to me to learn that something like 58% of women in Nepal over the age of 15 have had. Zero education, none at all, which is just, you know, alarming on many levels. But in one regard, they're really the center of a Nepalese family and community. And the fact that there's been no formal education for so many of those women just felt like something that was, that I wanted to impact in a positive way. Passionistas: Where did you grow up and what was your childhood like? Were you always interested in, in, uh, climbing and being outdoors? Lisa: So I grew up in the great mountaineering state of Illinois, where the highest point I believe is 120 feet. And it's so predominant that it actually has a name. Whereas in most states, if that elevation would not be named, so I didn't grow up. Aspiring to be a Mountaineer. I didn't grow up learning or reading about, you know, sir, Edmond Hillary or other sort of pioneering mountaineers. And I wasn't even really that athletic, you know, looking back, I grew up in a small farming community, uh, called Lincoln in the very center of Illinois. You know, every kid sort of makes the, the softball team or the volleyball team. I think there were a couple years where I did not even make it. I was so uncoordinated and unathletic a and I didn't grow up really with parents who pushed me to Excel. You know, I think part of their sort of distance is what motivated me to prove myself and to, you know, you know, back then it was about getting their attention. Lots of time in therapy talking about that. But one of the positives of that I've realized is that it pushed me to really want to Excel and to push myself mentally and physically. And that translated first, you know, I'm still by my account, but only person in my entire extended family to graduate from college, which is sort of sad, you know, to me, but it pushed me to do things that were unexpected. In my community and with my family. And so, you know, going to college was sort of the first step in that direction. I studied engineering, you know, not because I was super interested in it, but because I felt like that seems hard and I can probably make a decent salary when I graduate. And so I was fortunate to get a job with Hewlett Packard right out of college as an engineer, then it was, you know, that was the mid-nineties. I was the only woman at my level. And that taught me a lot. I was certainly not prepared coming from. You know, a very sort of hardworking farming-oriented family. I was not equipped to be thrown into a corporate environment at that age. I was 24. And so there was a lot of sort of flailing and trying to understand dynamics and politics. And I was often the youngest person in the room, the only female in the room. And. Upon reflection. Um, there were definitely some missteps, some things that I just, frankly didn't understand, cuz I was ill-equipped to be in that kind of environment. But one very positive thing that came of that was that through that job, I eventually moved to Seattle, which is where I live today. And here. You know, mountaineering, we're fortunate to be surrounded by the Cascade mountains and the Olympic mountain range. So climbing and mountaineering and just being in the mountains is really part of the culture in Seattle. When I moved here, uh, for that job still with, you know, it wasn't any longer with Hewlett Packard, but it was a derivation of that company. All the men at my level would go climbing on the weekend. And so I had no idea, right? I no, like I'd maybe been camping with my family, but I didn't like know anything about mountaineering. I didn't know what a crampon was. I had no idea the equipment, the gear, the, the, you know, the sort of aesthetic of climbing, nothing. But these men, you know, would go out on the weekends and they would come back to the office on Monday and they had all. You know, incredible stories. And again, it wasn't that I aspired to be in the mountains, but I aspired to be a part of their group. And I wanted them so badly to see me, the only woman on their team as capable and strong. And I wasn't getting that in the office environment. So this seemed like a way to do that. And instead of doing the totally logical thing, which would've been to say. Like oh, climbing. That sounds really cool. Can I come with you or can you tell me more about it? I just got frustrated. I got mad and eventually just decided I was gonna go climb my own damn mountains. And I had no, I again had no idea what that meant, but I started really just hiking around my house in the cascades. And then eventually in 2008, I attempted Mount Rainier, which is the highest mountain in Washington. And after that I was, I was just hooked spite no spite I was hooked at that. Passionistas: Do they know what you've accomplished since then? Lisa: I've lost track of them. I could probably, you know, through a network, get back to them, but I don't, I don't know. Probably not and they probably don't even, you know, these weren't bad guys at all. It just, I think didn't occur to them to ask me to join. And so they probably would have no reason to wonder like, Hey, I wonder if that girl ever climbed any mountains. Passionistas: You started to do this as, you know, a recreational activity, but then at some point that obviously shifted and you started to set these goals for yourself. So what inspired you to climb Mount Rainier and then to take it further from there? Lisa: Yeah, there was something about, so I didn't summit Rainier. My first attempt, the weather sort of turned bad on our second day and retreated. And, and I was relieved in that moment. I was happy cuz I just, I. Again, no idea what I was doing. Although I was with, you know, I was with a guide company and I was safe and all that, but I really just mentally wasn't prepared to be on a mountain and to just feel sort of the vastness of that challenge. And so I went back the next year before I got back to the parking lot in 2008, I was sure I was coming back. I tend to look at climbs like projects. And so even after that first year, I was like, okay, these are, you know, my backpack needs to be lighter. I need to have, you know, not red boots and have my own boots and just little things like that, that I started to like to learn and to, to tweak and adjust what I knew and my gear and my knowledge of the mountain. So I went back in 2009 and summited, and there was a moment, you know, where I sort of it's dark out and you're, you know, you can't really. Appreciate where you're at on the mountain and the sort of vastness of everything around you and the risk of falling. And because all you can see in the dark is just this little tiny circle of light from your headlamp. And so there was a moment where I remember looking what would've been east and seeing the sun just slowly start to split the horizon from the earth and. Just seeing like colors that were so magnificent and awe inspiring and thinking. This is an incredible experience and such a, a daunting place to be that taught me so much, so much humility to be learned in the mountains. When I got to the summit, I just had this incredible sense of accomplishment that I hadn't found anywhere else. I hadn't really gotten it from my parents as a kid. I hadn't gotten it at work. I, you know, graduated from college, any accomplishment I had had in my life until that point hadn't made me feel that way. And I loved that. I still love that climbing is. Obviously a very physical pursuit, but there is an enormous mental challenge that comes with climbing, you know, in any discipline of climbing. And I really loved that combination and I loved the idea of setting. Lofty goal and working hard and accomplishing it. And so I was completely hooked at that point. In two, I was 2009 and ready to just, I did, again, didn't know a lot about what to climb next, but I was sure that I was gonna keep doing it. Passionistas: You know, you were kind of inspired to do it by this being in this male dominated world. When you got to climbing, were there a lot of other women who were in doing what you were doing? Lisa” No. In fact, I, in the beginning was gonna name my book, the only girl, and it has changed. This is, you know, the late 2000s. It is getting better. You know, there's more diversity that the only, and first all black team summited Everest last month, which is incredible to see. And I was fortunate to play a small role in coaching them. So it's changing the dynamics, the face of, of people who enjoy the mountains is changing. But then I was. I don't always is maybe a strong word, but 95% of the time, I was the only woman on the team. And, you know, I was used to being in male dominated arenas, so that wasn't unusual for me, but I think it, you know, being an intense environment like climbing, just sort of heightened all of the challenges that come with that and made them much more potent. And it took me a long time to realize. Or to think about how I showed up in those roles. There was always the, like people doubted and people would say, oh, it's cute. I think you're gonna climb Mount Everest. That's a whole other conversation, but what I tended to think about myself and how I showed up in those situations. And at first I would just be one of the guys, I mean, so much so that they would undress in front of me and not even like, consider that there was a woman standing next to them. On Everest was the first time that I, that just didn't feel authentic to me anymore. It didn't feel right to laugh at crew. That were often, you know, demeaning to women. It didn't feel right to overlook little comments that just didn't sit well with me anymore. And so that was the first time. And there's a moment. And I talk about it in my book where I, you know, all men and I sort of separated myself from them for a minute because it just, I needed to feel like a woman and I needed to feel like myself in that environment. And, you know, at the time it. We're sort of arguing back and forth about my opinion about something versus theirs. But I realize now that it was me sort of stepping into my own strength and my own sort of persona as a woman and saying like this isn't okay anymore. And I'm not gonna just, you know, sit here and let it happen without saying anything. It's still challenging. It's getting better. But yeah, there were a lot of moments there just being, the only woman was a challenge for me. Passionistas: Do you think there are certain qualities that you, as a woman bring to a climb that's different than the male energy of a, of a climb? Lisa: And again, generalizing. Right. But I, I'm fortunate now that I get to coach mountaineers and I coach men and women. Um, and I, you know, I can see those nuances, even as I'm coaching them, women are much more interested in like the mental side. Of taking on a challenge, like a big mountain and making sure that they're very well rounded in their preparations. They wanna make sure that they're understanding the route. You know, they know where the challenges will be and that mentally they have the tools to get through them. And men generally, again, not always the case, but often just like they wanna like train and work hard and do all the runs and all the hikes and all the preparation climbs. And don't often sort of step back and say, There's a whole other side of this. There's a whole other, you know, facet to climbing big mountains. And, you know, my experience is that when you look at everything holistically is when you're the most prepared and when you're the most successful. And I think even on the mountains, you know, it's tough, there's difficult situations. And I find that women often add just a little bit more compassion to those situations. A little bit more empathy. and sometimes that's what you need to get through something that's difficult. So there's my experience. Yeah. There's a big difference between what men and women bring to those situations. Passionistas: So you, you have the successful Mount Rainier climb in 2009. What happens next? And how do you kind of plan where you go next? Lisa: Yeah, so I didn't do a lot of planning. I just knew, I knew I wanted to keep climbing more challenging things and there's, you know, back in the eighties, I believe it was a couple of mountaineers society. It would be really cool to climb to the highest peak of every single continent. And so I thought, okay, I'll just start doing that. You know, I don't know what to do. I picked the easiest, one of those, which was in Russia, a Mount called Elbrus and was successful there. So I thought, okay, well, Keep sort of on that track and climbing in the cascades as well, sort of, you know, like thinking, okay, I wanna be more independent and learn different skills, like building anchors and self-arrest and rope management. And so I, I would take excursions on the weekends locally to do those things. And then about once a year I would climb something big somewhere else in the world. And I was on that track and I had sort of decided. Mount Everest was kind of the next logical thing for me to climb just in terms of skill and difficulty. And at the time I felt like, oh, Everest is so commercial and there must be more interesting mountains in the Himalaya to climb. And so I had decided, and this really is a big moment. I think, in any mountaineers' career I had decided I was ready to climb in the Himalaya. So, you know, the Himalaya is this huge mountain range that bisects Asia and. It's special for a lot of reasons, but one is that. Most of the highest mountains in the world are there. And when we say high, in terms of mountaineering, we're talking about any mountain that's higher than 26,000 feet or 8,000 meters. And there's only 14 of those in the world. And so I, in 2015 thought, okay, I think I'm ready. Like I'm ready to try an easy one and just see how it goes. So. I picked that mountain, which is called Montes SL. And I was just beginning to prepare for it when I was diagnosed with cancer, you know, we, we've already established that. I'm a very stubborn person and I was a little cocky, you know, I was 42 years old. I thought and, and an athlete, like I ate organic vegetables. I wore my seatbelt. I floss my teeth. Like I, all those things that you are, you are taught to believe will keep you healthy. I thought I was doing it turns out I had a tremendous amount of stress in my job, which is, you know, like looking back and sort of analyzing how my body could get reacted that way to an external thing. It probably was a lot of stress at work, but nonetheless, I was diagnosed with breast cancer at the beginning of 2015. I was determined. Not to let cancer dictate my priorities so much so that I sat with my surgeon and said like, is there any way we could just postpone this whole cancer thing? Like, can we just like, how much could those tumors really grow in eight months? Like I just go do this climb and I'll come back and then you can do whatever you want with my body. When I get back and she very compassionately said that that would be a full hearty decision. I always remember that she used that word. And so I was very fortunate that I was able to get rid of the tumors in my, uh, breast with a bilateral mastectomy from which I did at the beginning in April of 2015. And I was, I mean, determination. Isn't a big enough word for how focused I was on getting my body ready to still travel to Nepal and attempt Montes SL. That autumn. And so I went, um, I was not, I was not a hundred percent. I had all, you know, all my doctors, all my care, healthcare providers knew what I was up to. They all thought I was a little bit crazy, but I had their support to be there. And. You know, their cell phone numbers, if anything went weird. And luckily it didn't, I didn't summit Manaslu in 2015, there was an avalanche above our camp. And, you know, the team felt that it just wasn't safe to continue. So we all turned around and I, I firmly believe that mountains and, you know, nature teaches us things. And so. When I got home, I, you know, I just sort of did some reflection about that climb. And I think sometimes you learn the most when you're not successful when you don't summit. But I realized that, you know, life is so fragile and that it's up to us. Each of us to define the lives that we will live. And so I became determined then to sort of reprioritize my life. My pause, my corporate career actually got a divorce and I decided to climb Mount Everest at that point. And, uh, went back to Nepal in 2016 to do that. Passionistas: So talk about that. Talk about preparing for that and you know, and the mental preparation, especially. Lisa: I learned a lot on Monte SL again, you know, success doesn't always mean you, you gain the most from a situation. And so I learned what my body was capable of. I knew that if I was healthy and trained, that I could be even stronger. And so I, I started working with a sports psychologist to really dig into the mental aspects. I was still a little bit unsure about what my body could do, you know, I, I, and I had. Probably four more surgeries before I went to Everest for reconstruction. So I depended a lot on a sports psychologist to just help me understand why Everest was important to me, what my body was capable of. To give me some really important tools that I use still today when things get difficult in the mountains to have something to focus on and to sort of rationalize what's going on around me and break it down into manageable chunks. So that was hugely helpful. I worked with a, a climbing coach as well to get me ready. You know, it was a very tumultuous time in my life as I was preparing to climb the most difficult mountain that I had climbed to that point. I was in the middle of getting a divorce. I wasn't sure I wanted to keep working. My dog died. Like all these, just so many things happened and looking back. It felt like just a really big reset, like the universe sort of saying, like, you know, that was your life then before cancer, and this is your chance to find your life after cancer. You know, that really is a big gift. I always think that cancer, I am grateful today in the moment I was not, but today I'm grateful for cancer because it showed me so many things about priorities and what life is about and how I want to spend it. I know that there's a book worth of conversation to be had, if not more about actually climbing Mount Everest, but kind of in general, what was the experience like? Passionistas: What was the biggest challenge that you faced in, in the midst of that experience? Lisa: Yeah, so climbing a big mountain, like Everest, I'll just provide a quick sort of background as to how it even. You know, it's, those mountains are so big, right? Your, your body could not possibly function. Even if you're breathing supplemental oxygen. It's not as easy as just walking to base camp and then starting to climb. There's a whole process of a climatization. Where you start at one camp climb to the next highest camp and then return to that first camp. And then you repeat that process gradually moving up the mountain, and that allows your body to change physiologically, to build more red blood cells so that you can survive at those higher elevations. And so for me on Everest as I was going through that process, I really felt in sync with the mountain in contrast to K2, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit, but I really felt like things just went smoothly. I felt like the mountain and I were working together and that we sort of [00:23:00] shared a level of respect. That, you know, ultimately ultimately allowed me to be successful, but that doesn't mean there weren't difficult moments. I recall climbing from camp three to camp four and it had been very, very windy. So, you know, hadn't slept at all the night before was lying in a very cramped tent. That was my side of the tent was actually can levered over the side of the mountain because it, you know, it was so steep. And, you know, a lot of emotional, like, is it too windy? You know, are we gonna have a chance to summit? We need to descend. And then it's a very quick decision by our team to like, we look, it looks like we have a window. We're gonna go up. I had sort of envisioned like having this moment to like get ready. And that was none of that. It was very rushed and harried and chaotic. And I, I walk out of the tent and I clip into the fixed rope with my, with my harness. and it was so incredibly windy that it kept blowing me over. And I remember these moments of just hearing the wind coming towards me from my left side, and then just lying face down on the ice to let it pass me by before I could continue. And that luckily subsided after, I don't know, a couple of hours or something. And, and then. I got to what I knew was gonna be the easiest part of that day, which is sort of a flat section that curves to the left towards a rock feature called the yellow band. And the yellow band is about 25 degrees. So it's not super steep. It's limestone. It would actually be fun to climb it at sea level, but as I'm walking towards it, I realize that I'm moving so slow and I'm actually. Like I get distracted by someone's glove, rolling down the ice. And my friend came up from behind me is like, what, you know, what do you what's going on? And I was like, I don't know. I just, I just wanna like lay down and I had run out of oxygen. So my brain and my, my muscles were not getting the oxygen that they needed to continue. I had a couple, I had a decision to make, I had a few choices in that moment. I could have turned around and gone back to camp three and said, you know, my climbs over or looked for more oxygen. I could have sat there in the snow and asked someone, probably a Sherpa to bring me more oxygen where I could have kept going. And. Those first two options just didn't feel right to me. And so I continued climbing. I will never forget. So climbing this relatively, you know, at sea level, easy section of rock and telling myself to just focus on the climber ahead of me and to never let him outta my sight, like just, he's not gonna get outta my site no matter what it takes. And I don't know how long it took me. I, you know, everything got really fuzzy at that moment. And I was still safe. I still had people around me and people knew that I didn't have oxygen, but I, that made that situation made me realize that we are so much stronger mentally than we believe or that, that we give ourselves credit for, because my body was literally like, it didn't have the gas that needed to continue. And it was just, I think my mind is pushing me, just willing myself forward to get through that situation. And the best feeling in the world. Like I hope nobody has to experience that, but I can't tell you how sweet it is to not have oxygen and have oxygen. Like, as soon as I got a fresh bottle, it was like, the world was right again. So a challenging moment. But like I said, I think mountains teach us things and you know, it taught me that I sort of have this untapped tool in my, you know, mental capacity that I really. You know, even now I feel like there's so much more potential to hone that skill of being mentally strong. Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast in our interview with Lisa Thompson. To learn more about her adventures and get a copy of her book, “Finding Elevation,” visit Lisaclimbs.com. We'd like to take a moment to share a special announce. We'll be hosting the third annual Power of Passionistas Summit, this September 21st through September 23rd, 2022. The three-day virtual event is focused on authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion. This unique gathering of intersectional storytellers and panelists harnesses the power of our rich community of passionate thought leaders and activists to pose solutions to the problems plaguing women today. Early bird tickets are on sale now at bit.ly/2022PowerofPassionistasTickets. We'd like to thank our sponsors — Melanie Childers, Natural Born Rebel, The Ossa Collective, Tea Drops, Aaron's Coffee Corner, Flourishing Over Fifty, Edith Espanola, Mermaid's Garden, Sara Fins Coaching, and Tara McCann Wellness. Now here's more of our interview with Lisa. That process of getting in tune with the mountain and going back and forth to the different camps. How long does that take? Lisa: It takes about a month, maybe six weeks. It just depends on weather and how fast people are moving People climbing in sort of the standard style climbing, big mountains and 8,000 meter peaks. Usually it takes about six weeks to, to two months to, to do that. So it's a long time. Passionistas: In 2017, you actually won an Emmy for something related to the Everest climb. Lisa: Right? So we, so this is totally serendipitous. So the expedition leader is named Garrett Madison He had endeavored to capture our climb in virtual reality, you know, technology has changed a lot since 2016. And so the way we did it was to strap all these GoPros sort of in a sphere and then carry that on a wand up the mountain and thereby, you know, create this 360 degree view. Of our climb. And then later some very smart people stitched that together and actually made it a virtual reality film, which is called capturing Everest. And, you know, I didn't know that was gonna happen when I signed up for that climb. There were, you know, a lot of. Sort of deals made and, and it just happened to be purchased by sports illustrated, um, and turned into this really cool documentary that later won an Emmy, not for my acting prowess, surprisingly, but for just the technology. It was the first time that anyone had captured virtual reality footage in that kind of an environment. You can find it on the sports illustrated website and on their app. And it's really, it's really fun if even if you don't have a headset, you can watch it in 360-degree video with your phone. And I will tell you, it will make you dizzy. Like even me having been there, it is very, very real to watch people, you know, climbing or walking across the ladder or climbing a steep part of, of the, the mountain. So I feel. You know, never in my life, if you've said like you could win an Emmy, I would like never thought that. So it was a really, really cool experience and cool to be able to just share that in a very tangible way, with cool technology, to people who, you know, may never endeavor to climb. But now get to have a little bit of a taste of what it's like. Passionistas: So that same year in 2017, you, um, became the first all American women to summit K2. So how did that differ from climbing Mount Everest and what unique challenges did you face on that? Lisa: Yeah. So it was 2017. I, I endeavored to go to K2 for the first time. My team actually fell apart. And so I didn't climb that mountain that year. I went back in 2018 and in 2017, the first American woman did summit. And I felt like, you know, I, I, this is still an important climb for me. It's something. I think being the first is very cool. I think not being the only is even cooler. And so it was important to me to just sort of continue showing what women could do in the mountains. So K2 is the second highest mountain in the world. It's about 800 feet shorter than Mount Everest. K2 is in Pakistan. It's on the border between China and Pakistan. Most people, like if I'm at a dinner party and you know, someone finds out that I've climbed Everest, they get super excited and they wanna know what that's like, and I'll say, yeah, but I climbed this other mountain called K2, which is actually like really, really hard. And they're like, yeah. But tell me about Everest. Did you see any dead people? So most people don't even know. You know, not even heard of K2, it's in a much more remote part of the world. For example, you know, the, the walk to Everest space camp is, you know, in a lovely valley, there are tea houses. There are commercial helicopters. There is an emergency room at Everest space camp. There is none of that. In the Karakoram mountain range in Pakistan, you are farther from any kind of definitive medical care that you'll probably ever be in your life. And that, you know, would involve a Pakistani army helicopter ride to a small hospital in a remote village. So it's, it's much more remote. The weather on K2 is also much more fickle. So it's, you know, known for just monster storms that sort of whip out of nowhere, dump a lot of snow. Cause avalanches. K2 is also steep from like the second you leave base camp. It is just unrelentingly steep and it is also known for a lot of rock fall. So you can imagine that my family was super excited to hear about me. Deciding to climb this mountain, I had just, you know, beat cancer. My father was diagnosed with cancer when I was climbing Mount Everest and, and died about a month after I got home. And so I sort of promised him that K2 would be the last, really dangerous mountain that I climbed. I was very determined to give it a go in 2018. And, and I was so fortunate that. Everything aligned, you know, the, I had a great team, the weather was decent and we were able to make it work. And, and, you know, and I mentioned earlier that I felt very in sync with Mount Everest and on K2. I felt every day like that mountain was trying to kill me, you know, in the form of rock falls in the form of other climbers dying. I just never really felt like I was in sync with that mountain. And there was a moment where again, climbing steep rock much steeper than the rock I describe on Everest. It's a section of the route called the Black Pyramid and it's at 25,000. And so in this moment I'm wearing a down suit. I'm actually breathing bottled oxygen because the climbing is so difficult and I'm attached to a rope. And that section of the mountain is sort of really like chunky, just unstable rock and there's snow and ice. And I wanted to quit. Like I wanted to just turn around. I fantasized about like reversing my direction on the rope and I thought I could be. Back at base camp in a couple of days, and I could get a helicopter to Islamabad and I could take a proper shower and like eat, you know, I'd really just let, like all the things my sports psychologist told me not to do. I just really let that real like play out. I wanted to turn around and I remember, you know, from somewhere there was a voice in my head that said, is this all you were capable of? And I realized that it was not all that I was capable of, that I was, you know, I was frustrated and I was tired and I was mad at myself, but I was capable of more. And so I kept just. Putting one hand above the other one foot above the other. And I knew that would be the hardest point in the mountain. And once I got past that, you know, the, the rocks were relented and it was more snow, which is my comfort zone, but there were many, many moments where I wanted to quit. So then what did that moment feel like when you finally reached the. So I remember climbing. So a couple days after that scene that I described with the Black Pyramid and we attempted the summit and, you know, the night before the summit, you're sort of, you're laying, I was laying in a tent with two other men in the middle position wearing my down suit boots. Like you don't really sleep. You just sort of lay there for a few hours, like waiting and breathing bottle oxygen. I had this sort of like checklist in my mind of like making sure that I had food in the right places, on my, down, in my down suit that I had like turned on my GPS device, like going through all those sort of pre-flight checklist things. And then we, we left for the summit and it's dark out and I knew the climbing initially would not be. The steepest part. I knew it would be a little bit chill for a bit, and then it was gonna get steeper. And I had, you know, that sort of pre-flight checklist. I had put new batteries in my headlamp. And as I'm climbing, I realize that the batteries are about are dying. They're dimmer than everyone else is. And I say, I'm fine. I have a, I have a spare set. It's close to my body. So they're not frozen. I stop, you know, with thick gloves, like fumble around, finally get the batteries in there. Good. Keep climbing, catch up with my team. And it happens again. And I don't have a spare and I can't expect anybody else to give me their spare. They're sort of, you know, they're sort of ethic and climbing that. You need to be self-sufficient up there. You can't rely on anybody else. And so I remember screaming at the guy in front of me, Rob Smith, a fantastic guy from Ireland, and he gave me his spare batteries. You know, it's very delicate exchange, right? If you can imagine we're in these thick gloves, we're on the side of a mountain, it's dark. And I just remember him like pushing that battery into the palm of my glove. And I remember thinking if you dropped this, that's it. The reason it was, I mean, obviously it was important to see, but we were about to cross, what's called the bottleneck traverse on K2, which is, you know, it's actually flat, but it's about, it's less than one boot width. And so you're walking and there's like two miles of air beneath you. And so you cannot make a mistake there. You obviously cannot have compromised vision there. And so literally without Rob's help, I would not have. I wouldn't have made it. And that moment, you know, several hours later, I got to the summit and I remember it was it's light out now and I'm climbing by myself and it's, it's very, um, unconsolidated snow. So I'm sort of take one step and, you know, I'm, I'm putting my boot print in other people's path. So there's a little sort of steps there and sometimes they would just break and you would just slide down and, you know, it's just incredibly frustrating and you exert a lot of energy. But I looked up and I saw where the snow met the horizon. I saw bright colors and I thought, that's it. Like those are other peoples standing there at the summit. And more than anything, I wanted to cry in that moment. But I was like, do not cry. Like you you're not there yet. And just to sort of bring things full circle I had, after my father died, I had, you know, carried his ashes to like every mountain. Sprinkle them on the top. And it was a very, you know, just peaceful sort of full circle moment to spread the last of his ashes on the summative K2, which is, you know, he never in his life could have imagined traveling to Pakistan. So it was fun to just sort of, not only to have him with me, but to be able to share that with him as well was really special. Passionistas: What is the coming down like physically and emotionally? Lisa: So, I'm glad you asked that question, Amy, because most people and I was very, very conscious of writing about this in my book because the summit is halfway like it is literally halfway and more mountaineering accidents occur on the dissent. Then then climbing up and that's because you're tired. Many people push beyond what they're capable of. You're you know, just logistically you're facing away from the mountain. Oftentimes gravity is not working in your favor. And so the dissent to me is very. Harrowing like it's I very consciously at the top of, at any big mountain do not celebrate because it is, you're not done. There is still a lot more work to do. And on K2 in particular, you know, we talked a little bit about like that moment on Everest, where I felt like I was sort of stepping into my own strength and on K2, I'm [00:41:00] descending, very steep ice face and. There are ropes there. And one rope is meant for climbers coming up. There are still some climbers ascending, and the other rope is meant for climbers who are descending. Another climber had, uh, started to ascend the rope that I was about to use to go down. And I scream at him. You know, he's very, he's far down the slope. He can't hear me. He's just sort of laying there. And I sort of looked, my friend Garrett was next to me and he recommended that I descend. Using not the most secure technique, a, a technique arm wrapping where you wrap the rope around your arm and you, um, you're connected to that rope with a safety carabiner. It's locked, but you lean forward and just walk face first down the mountain. And I had done it many times, but, but I, it just didn't feel right. To do it then. And I didn't even, I don't even know where this voice came from, but I just told him no, like I'm not, that's not how I'm gonna do that this today. And so I, you know, set up my repel device, which takes longer, is much safer, but you know, takes longer repel down to this man who's laying face first and the ice, not, he wasn't response, he was alive. I could, you know, he was alive. He did survive by the way, just before I get too far in the story. But he wasn't responsive to my, you know, yelling at him, trying to get him to move. And so I had to execute this very, very delicate sequence of moving my gear, you know, establishing a safe anchor, moving my gear around him on what I know, because I, you know, study this mountain intimately is. The place on that mountain where most people have died and thankfully it went well and he survived and, you know, I was able to continue, but that was a moment that, to me, that just underscores that [00:43:00] the dissent is so in some ways more important than the ascent in terms of difficulty. And that, that moment looking back, or I said to my friend, Garrett, like, that's not how I'm gonna do this today. I really felt like was pivotal in terms of me, sort of, this is a man that I've climbed with for years. I've always trusted him. He knows my capability. And so for me to just, you know, take a different tact, I think was, you know, just more of me, like stepping into my own voice and strength in the mountains, which is a good feeling. Passionistas: Can you compare for us the fear that you faced being diagnosed with cancer versus the fear you faced on a mountain like that? Lisa: Knowing how dangerous it is and if those are different and if you have the same or different tools to deal with both. Yeah, that's an awesome question. They feel to me like somatically, they feel very different. I feel like different kinds of fear. When I was diagnosed with cancer, I felt completely unprepared to deal with that scenario. It was not anything that I ever thought I would have to encounter or deal with in my life. And I felt out of control. I felt like, you know, my body was, had turned against me initially. I, you know, before I had a team of people to support me, I felt alone. And without like a path or a, you know, a guide to get me through this situation. And luckily that changed and I found incredible healthcare. It felt much scarier to be diagnosed with cancer in the mountains. I feel like, you know, I have, I understand what I can control and I have the skills to get myself through it. And I think fear for sure in the mountains. I, I believe that a little bit of fear is a good thing because I think that it keeps you focused. It keeps me alert to what's going on around me. If the weather's changing, if the route is changing, if. You know, someone climbing above me that doesn't look super safe, that little bit of fear sharpens my awareness too much fear. I think in the mountains and in fighting cancer can be stifling. And I think it can actually, you know, sort of stop you from progressing. But that's a, a really important question because they, for me are very different flavors of fear. Passionistas: So what's the next big challenge for you? Lisa: Yeah. So we talked about it a little bit in the beginning. I don't endeavor. I don't have any desire to climb anything more challenging than K2 in my life, but I do wanna keep climbing and it's become more important to me to give back to the communities, particularly in Nepal and in Pakistan, where I have just learned so much about myself and gotten so much from them personally. So I wanna, I wanna start to give back to those communities and in particular to the women who, who live in those communities. So along with some female mountaineering friends of mine, we were setting up a philanthropic climb for this fall to a mountain called Cholatse which is in, uh, Nepal. It's about 6,800 meters. It will not be the hardest mountain we've ever climbed. But the point is that we just wanna show that anything is possible when women support one another in the mountains. And so to us, that means. That our team will be fully comprised of women. I don't know if that's ever happened before. I think there've been some all women's climbs that maybe had support from men, but, and not that we don't like men, but like we just wanna show that women can do everything in the mountains that a man can do. And so we're building that team. We're super lucky to have a great, uh, Nepalese uh, climbing leader. Pasang Lama. She's helping us create a team of all women to, to cook, to carry loads, to plan, to do everything. And we just think it's an incredible sort of opportunity to raise some money for at least one, depending on how, how fundraising goes maybe more, but we want to. We're soliciting input for Nepalese women who have some educational related goal in their life. So if they wanna learn a trade, if they wanna open a tea house, um, if they weren't wanna learn about economics, like we want to be able, we wanna be the catalyst that helps that woman learn those skills so that she can better not just her life. But I think, you know, that sort of has this trickle-down effect and has the potential to positively impact generations. So. I'm, you know, just beyond excited to be a part of this team and we'll see where it goes. We'd love to do it, you know, multiple years, but we're all, you know, just we're dedicated and excited to, to climb with a purpose now. Passionistas: So what inspired you to write your book "Finding Elevation"? Lisa: I had always wanted to write, which I studied engineering in college, you know? I felt like I was very far away from that as, as an adult, but as a kid, I had a desire to write. And in my twenties, I tried out different topics. You know, none of them just sort of seemed to fit. And then when I was diagnosed with cancer, I really relied on journaling to, to get me through that and to be this, you know, sort of outlet for everything that I was feeling. And. Probably two years of journaling, I sort of realized that there were a lot of things that I had encountered that seemed to translate to other people. You know, that if I could share what I had learned, the hard way with another woman that maybe, you know, she would have an easier path than I did. And so it became really important for me to share. Um, and, and, you know, at the time I thought this will just be about cancer. And then as I continued to climb and I continued to learn more about myself and what I'm capable of and how to overcome obstacles, how to find your voice. Most of that through K2, it, it just really turned into a much bigger project than just journaling. . What was the thing you learned about yourself from writing the book that maybe surprised you the. I think I learned a lot about my childhood when I was writing. Um, I, and I, you know, I spent a year studying memoir at the university of Washington, and I remember like my, there was nothing about my childhood in, in an early draft. And my instructor was like, you can't leave that out. Like that's a part of, and I was like, yeah, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't super, like, it's kind of painful for me. I really don't wanna put it in here. Um, and of course it, you know, needs to be a more balanced story, et cetera, etcetera. And so by me sort of digging through that, I realized, you know, this sort of these traits that I have today and where they came from. And there was a lot of therapy in there as well. And it made me realize that, you know, something that. Because I said, my parents, you know, were not very reliable. They weren't always around. And, and that made me a very independent person. Um, there's certainly some downsides to that, but I think there's, I think there's always a silver lining. There's always some positive. Outcome, even of bad situations. And we often just have to look a little bit harder, like, you know, dig a little bit deeper to find them. But those I think are, you know, the real nuggets and like where, where we really learn why we are the way we are. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Lisa Thompson, to learn more about her adventures and get a copy of her book, finding elevation, visit LisaClimbs.com Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your Passions. Double your first box when you sign up for a one year subscription. Remember to sign up for our mailing list, to get more information about the Power of Passionistas Summit at bit.ly/2022PowerofPassionistasTickets. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time stay well and stay passionate.

What You'll Hear In This Episode:What does it look like from the male perspective when you're constantly seeking reassurance? The more he feels like he's walking on eggshells around you, the less he feels like he is the man who can truly make you happy and that is the kiss of death for any relationship. Men resent feeling manipulated or controlled by a woman. The more you need reassurance, the more he will feel like he's doing something bad or wrong, even when he's not. How to seek out healthy reassurance from him instead. Being kind and compassionate is important, but it also doesn't mean you are a doormat.Men are truly one-track-minded, and they may really like you but still forget your birthday or send that good morning text. Lisa talks about how she used every opportunity she could to show Benjamin she was a different kind of woman, the ideal version of her highest self. Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With LisaEmail the podcast at: podcast@lisashield.comMentioned:Eckhart Tolle  Quotes“I think it's in the nature of a man not to want to do something out of obligation.” - Lisa“Many, many, many men resent feeling manipulated or controlled by a woman.” - Lisa“It's so important for women to really think about the fact that men are truly one-track minded.” - Lisa “Part of those things that a man needs, particularly as the relationship settles in, are time and space to himself.” - Benjamin

SUMMARY:  In this episode, we talk with Lisa Coyne about ACT For mental compulsions.  Lisa Coyne addressed how to use Acceptance and Commitment therapy for overcoming mental compulsions. We cover how to identify your values using a fun little trick! In This Episode: How to use Acceptance & Commitment Therapy to manage mental compulsions How to practice Willingness in regards to reducing mental rituals and mental rumination  A fun little Value Based tool for identifying your values.  How to be curious instead of thinking in a limited way.  Links To Things I Talk About: Stuff thats Loud Stop Avoiding Stuff  https://www.newenglandocd.org/ ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two).   EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 287.  Welcome back, everybody. I am so excited. We are at Episode 6 of this six-part series of how to manage mental compulsions. You guys, we could not end this series with anyone better than Dr. Lisa Coyne. I don't know if you've heard of Lisa Coyne. I bet you, you probably have. She is the most wonderful human being.  I have met Lisa, Dr. Lisa Coyne multiple times online, never in person, and just loved her. And this was my first time of actually getting to spend some really precious time with her. And, oh my gosh, my heart exploded like a million times. And you will hear in this episode, you will hear my heart exploding at some point, I'm sure. I am so honored to finish out the six-part series with Lisa. This series, let me just share with you how joyful it has felt to be able to deliver this as a series, as a back-to-back piece of hope. I'm hoping it has been a piece of hope for you in managing something really, really difficult, which is managing mental compulsions. Now, as we finish this series up, I may or may not want to do a recap. I'm not sure yet. I'm going to just see where my heart falls, but I want to just really first, as we move into this final part of the series, to remind you, take what you need. You've been given literally back-to-back some of the best advice I have ever heard in regards to managing mental compulsions. We've got world-renowned experts on this series. You might have either found it so, so educational and so, so helpful while also feeling sometimes a little bit like, “Oh my goodness, there's so many tools, which one do I use?”  And I really want to emphasize to you, as we finish this out, again, so beautiful. What a beautiful ending. I almost feel like crying. As we finish it out, I really want to remind you, take what you need, take what's helpful, or – well, I should say and – try all of them out. Practice with each of the skills and the concepts and the tools. See what happens when you do. Use them as little experiments. Just keep plugging away with these skills and tools. Because number one, they're all evidence-based. I very carefully picked the experts on this series to make sure that we are bringing you evidence-based, really gold standard treatment. So, that's been a priority. Just practice with them. Don't be hard on yourself as you practice them. Remind yourself, this is a long-term journey. These are skills I still practice. I'm sure everyone who's come on the show, they are still practicing them. And so, I really want to send you off with a sense of hope that you get to play around with these. Be playful with them. Some of them will be we've giggled and we've laughed and we've cried. So, I want you to just be gentle as you proceed and you practice and remind yourself this is a process and a journey.  That being said, I am going to take you right into this next part of the six-part series with Dr. Lisa Coyne. This is where we bring it home and boy, does she bring it home. I feel like she beautifully ties it all up in a ribbon. And I hope it has been so helpful for you. Really, I do. I want this to be a resource that you share with other people who are struggling. I want to be a resource that you return to when you're struggling. I want it to be a place where you feel understood and validated. And so, thank you so much for being a part of this amazing series. That being said, let's get over onto the show, and here is Dr. Lisa Coyne. ------ Kimberley: I literally feel like I'm almost in tears because I know this is going to be the last of the series and I'm so excited. I had just said this is going to bring it home. I'm so excited to have Dr. Lisa Coyne. Welcome. Lisa: Thank you. It's so nice to be here with you, Kim. Hi, everyone. What is a Mental Compulsion? Do you call it a Mental Compulsion or a Mental Ritual?  Kimberley: Yes. So, first of all, the question I've asked everybody, and I really am loving the response is, this is a series on managing mental compulsions, but do you call them mental compulsions, mental rituals, rumination? How do you conceptualize this whole concept? Lisa: I would say, it depends on the person and it depends on what they're doing. I call them any number of things. But I think the most important thing, at least for me in how I think about this, is that we come at it from a very behavioral perspective, where we really understand that-- and this is true for probably all humans, but especially so for OCD. I have a little bit of it myself, where I get caught up in the ruminations. But there's a triggering thought. You might call it a trigger like a recurrent intrusive thought that pops up or antecedent is another word that we think of when we think of behavior analysis. But after that thought comes up, what happens is the person engages in an on-purpose thing, whatever it is that they do in their mind. It could be replacing it with a good thought. It could be an argument with yourself. It could be, “I just need to go over it one more time.” It could be, “I'm going to worry about this so I can solve it in advance.” And that part is the part that we think of as the compulsion. So, it's a thing we're doing on purpose in our minds to somehow give us some relief or safety from that initial thought.  Now the tricky part is this. It doesn't always feel like it's something we're doing on purpose. It might feel so second nature that it too feels automatic. So, part of, I think, the work is really noticing, what does it feel like when you're engaging in this activity? So, for me, if I'm worrying about something, and worry is an example of this kind of doing in your mind, it comes with a sense of urgency or tightness or “I just have to figure it out,” or “What if I--” and it's all about reducing uncertainty really.  So, the trick that I do when I notice it in me is I'll be like, “Okay, I'm noticing that urgency, that tension, that distress. What am I up to in my head? Am I solving something? Is that--” and then I'll step back and notice what I'm up to. So, that's one of my little tricks that I teach my clients. Kimberley: I love this. Would you say your predominant modality is acceptance and commitment therapy? What would you say predominantly you-- I mean, I know you're skilled in so many things, but what would you-- Lisa: I would say, it's funny because, yeah, I guess you would. I mean, I'm pretty skilled in that.  I'm an ACT trainer. Although I did start with CBT and I would say that for OCD, I really stick to ERP. I think of it as the heart of the intervention, but we do it within the context of ACT. ACT for Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: Can you tell me what that would look like? I'm just so interested to understand it from that conceptualization. So, you're talking about this idea. We've talked a lot about like, it's how you respond to your thoughts and how you respond and so forth. And then, of course, you respond with ERP. What does ACT look like in that experience? I'd love to hear right from your mouth. Lisa: Okay. All right. So, I'm going to do my best here to just say it and then we'll see if it sounds more like ACT or it sounds more like ERP. And then you'll see what I mean when I say I do both of them. So, when you think about OCD, when you think about anxiety, or even maybe depression where you're stuck in rumination, somebody is having an experience. We call it a private event like feeling, thought, belief that hurts, whatever it is. And what they're doing is everything that they can to get away from that. So, if it's OCD, there's a scary thought or feeling, and then there's a ritual that you do.  So, to fix that, it's all about learning to turn towards and approach that thing that's hard. And there's different ways you can do that. You can do that in a way where you're dialing it in and you're like, “Yeah, I'm going to do the thing,” but you're doing everything that you can to not feel while you're doing that. And I think that's sometimes where people get stuck doing straight-up exposure and response prevention. It's also hard.  When I was a little kid, I was really scared to go off the high dive. I tell my clients and my team the story sometimes where it was like a three-meter dive. And I was that kid where I would be like, “I'm going to do it. All the other kids are doing it.” And I would climb up, I'd walk to the end of the board, freak out, walk back, climb down. And I did this so many times one day, and there's a long line of other kids waiting to get in the water. And they were pissed. So, I got up and I walked out to the end of the board and I was like, “I can't.” And I turned around to go back. And there was my swim coach at the other side of the board with his arms crossed. I was like, “Oh no.” Kimberley: “This is not the way I planned.” How do you apply Acceptance & Commitment Therapy for OCD and Mental Compulsions?  Lisa: And he is like, “No, you're going.” And I went, which was amazing. And sometimes you do need that push. But the point is that it's really hard to get yourself to do those really hard things sometimes when it matters. So, to me, ACT brings two pieces to the table that are really, really important here. You can divide ACT into two sets of processes. There's your acceptance and mindfulness processes, and then there's your commitment and valuing processes, which are the engine of ACT, how do we get there?  So, for the first part, mindfulness is really paying attention on purpose. And if you want to really learn from an exposure, you have to be in your body, you have to be noticing, you have to be willing to allow all of the thoughts and sensations and whatever shows up to show up. And so, ACT is ideal at shaping that skillset for when you're in the exposure. So, that's how we think of it that way.  And then the valuing and commitment is, how do you get yourself off that diving board? There has to be something much more important, bigger, much bigger than your fear to help motivate you for why to do this hard thing. And I think that the valuing piece and really connecting with the things that we most deeply care about is part of what helps with that too. So, I think those two bookends are really, really important. There's other ways to think about it, but those are the two primary ways that we do ERP, but we do it within an ACT framework. Using Values to manage Mental Compulsions Kimberley: Okay. I love this. So, you're talking about we know what we need to do. We know that rumination isn't helpful. We know that it creates pain. We know that it keeps us stuck. And we also know, let's jump to like, we know we have to drop it ultimately. What might be an example of values or commitments that people make specifically for rumination, the solving? Do you have any examples that might be helpful?  Lisa: Yeah. I'm just thinking of-- there's a bunch of them, but for example, let's take, for example, ROCD, relationship OCD. So, let's say someone's in a relationship with a partner and they're not sure if the right partner is. Are they cheating on me? Are they not? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's this like, “But I have to solve if this is the right person or not. Am I going to be safe?” or whatever the particular worry is. And so, one of the things that you can do is once folks notice, they're trying to solve that. Notice, what's the effect of that on your actual relationship? How is that actually working? So, there's this stepping back where an ACT, we would call that diffusion or taking perspective self-as-context, which is another ACT, acceptance, and mindfulness piece. And first of all, notice that. Second of all, pause. Notice what you're up to. Is the intent here to build a strong relationship, or is the intent to make this uncertainty go away? And then choose. Do I want to work on uncertainty or do I want to work on being a loving partner and seeing what happens? Because there's so much we're not in charge of, including what we're thinking and feeling. But we are in charge of what we choose to do. And so, choosing to be present and see where it goes, and embracing that uncertainty. But the joyfulness of it, I think, is really, really important. So, that would be one example.  Kimberley: I love that example. Actually, as you were saying, I was thinking about an experience of my own. When your own fears come up around relationship, even you're ruminating about a conversation or something, you've got to stop and be like, “Is this getting in the way here of the actual thing?” It's so true. Tell me about this joy piece, because it's not very often you hear the word joy in a conversation about mental compulsions. Tell me about it. Lisa: Well, when you start really noticing how this is working, and if you're willing to step back from it, let it be, and stay where you are in that uncertainty, all sorts of new things show up. Stuff you never could have imagined or never could have dreamed. Your whole life could be just popping up all of these possibilities. In that moment you stop engaging with those compulsions, you could go in a hundred different directions if you're willing to let the uncertainty be there. And I think that that's really important.  I want to tell a story, but I have to change the details in my head just for confidentiality. But I'm thinking of a person who I have worked with, who would be stuck and ruminating about, is this the right thing? I could make decisions and how do I-- for example, how do I do this lecture? My slides need to be perfect and ruminating, ruminating, ruminating about how it works. And one day they decided, “Okay, I'm just going to be present and I'm just going to teach.” And they taught with a partner. And the person themself noticed like, “Wow, I felt so much more connected to my students. This was amazing.” And the partner teaching with them was like, “I've never seen you so on. That was amazing.” They contacted this joy and like, “This is what it could be like.” And it's like this freedom shows up for you. And it's something that we think we know. And OCD loves to know, and it loves to tell you, it knows the whole story about everything. And it's more what you get back when you stop doing the compulsions if you really, really choose that. It's so much more than just, “Oh, I'm okay. I noticed that thought.” it's so much more than that. It's like, yes, and you get to do all this amazing stuff.  Kimberley: Right. I mean, it's funny. I always have my clients in my head. When someone says something, I'm imagining my client going, “But like, but like...” What's the buts that are coming? Lisa: And notice that process. But see, that's it. That's your mind, that's their minds jumping back in being like, “See, there it is again.” Kimberley: Yeah. Lisa: And what if we just don't know? Using Curiosity to Stop Mental Compulsions  Kimberley: And this is what I love about this. I agree with you. There have been so many times when I've dropped myself out of-- I call it being heady and I drop into my body and you get this experience of being like, “Wow.” For me, I can get really simple on like, “Isn't it crazy that water is clear?” I can go to that place. “Water is clear. That is incredible.” You know what I mean? It's there to go to that degree. But then, that's the joy in it for me. It's like, “Wow, somebody literally figured out how to make this pen work.” That still blows my mind.  Lisa: I had a moment. I started horseback riding again for the first time in literally-- I've ridden on and off once a year or something, but really riding. And actually, it was taking classes and stuff for the first time in 30 years. And they put me in this class and I didn't know what level it was. I just thought we were just going to walk around and trot and all that stuff. Plus, she starts setting up jumps. And I was like, “Oh my God, this is old body now. This is not going to bounce the way it might have been.” It's what means all these 15-year-olds in the class. Kimberley: Wow. Lisa: I'm third in line and I'm just on the horse absolutely panicking and ruminating like, “Oh my God, am I going to die? Should I do this? What am I going to do? Should I tell her no? But I want it and I don't know what I'm going to--” and my head was just so loud. And so, the two girls in front of me go. And then I look at the teacher and I go, “Are you sure?” It's literally the first time I've ever done in 30 years. She just went-- she just looked at me. And I noticed that my legs squeezed the horse with all of the stuff rolling around in my head. And I went over the jump and it was, I didn't die. It was really messy and terrifying. Oh my God, it was so exciting and joyful. And I was so proud of myself. That's what you get-- Kimberley: And I've heard that from so many clients too.  Lisa: It's so awesome.  Kimberley: I always say it's like base jumping. It's like you've got to jump. And then once you've jumped, you just got to be there. And that is true. There is so much exhilaration and sphere that comes from that. So, I love that. What about those who base jump or squeeze the horse and they're dropping into discomfort that they haven't even experienced before, like 10 out 10 stuff. Can you walk me through-- is it just the same? Is it the same concept? What would you advise there? Lisa: So, I think it's important to notice that when that happens, people are not just experiencing physical sensations and emotions, but it's also whatever their mind is telling them about it. And I think this is another place where ACT is super helpful to just notice, like your mind is saying, this is 10 out of 10. What does that mean to you? That means like, oh my gosh. And just noticing that and holding it lightly while you're in that 10 out of 10 moment, I think, is really, really helpful.  So, for example, I have a really intense fear of heights where I actually freeze. I can't actually move when I'm on the edge of something. And I had a young client who I've worked with for a while. And as an exposure for her, but also for me as her clinician to model, we decided. She wanted me to go rock climbing with her, which is not something I've ever done, ever, and also fear of heights. So, I kept telling myself, “Fear of heights, this is going to suck. This is going to be terrible. This is going to be terrible.” And there was also another part of me interested and curious.  And so, what I would say when you're in that 10 out of 10 moment, you can always be curious. So, when you're like, “Oh my gosh, I'm really scared,” the moment you're unwilling to feel that is the moment it's going to overwhelm you. And if you can notice it as a thought, “I'm having the thought, I don't think I can handle this. I don't think I'm going to survive this,” and notice it and be curious, let's see what happens. And so, for me, I noticed interestingly, even though I'm terrified of heights, I wasn't actually scared at all. And that was a shocker, because I was full sure it was going to be the worst thing ever.  And so, notice the stories your mind tells you about what an experience is going to be and stay curious. You can always be curious. And that's going to be, I think, your number one tool for finding your way through and how to handle those really big, unexpected, and inevitable surprising moments that happen in life that are really scary for all of us. Kimberley: Right. And when you say curious, I'm not trying to get too nitpicky on terms, but for me, curiosity is, let's experiment. I always think of it like life is a science experiment, like let's see if my hypothesis is true about this rock climbing. Is there a way that you explain curiosity? Lisa: Yeah. Well, that's part of it, but it's also part like what you were describing. Isn't water cool? It's more than, is this true or not true? That's so narrow. You want, “No, really? What does this taste like?” And that's the mindfulness piece. Really notice all of it. There's so much. And when you start doing that, you'll find-- even if you do it outside of exposure, for example, as practice, you start to notice that the present moment is a little bit like Hermione's purse in Harry Potter, where you think it's this one thing, and then when you start to expand your awareness, you notice there's tons of cool stuff. So, in these big, scary moments, what you might see is a sense of purpose or a sense of, “Holy crap, I'm handling this and I didn't think I could. Wow, this is amazing,” or “I'm really terrified. Oh my gosh, my nose itches.” It could be anything at all.  But the bottom line is, our bodies were meant to feel and they were meant to experience all the emotions. And so, there is no amount of emotion or fear or anything that we are not built to handle. Emotions are information. And to stay in the storm when it's such a big storm, when OCD is ramping you up, it teaches the OCD, “Actually, I guess I get to stand down here eventually, I guess I don't need to freak out about this so much. Huh, interesting. I had no idea.” I don't know if that's helpful or not.   Kimberley: No, it's so helpful. It is so helpful because I think if you have practiced curiosity, it makes sense. But for someone who maybe has been in mental compulsions for so long, they haven't really strengthened that curiosity muscle. Mindfulness for Mental Compulsions Lisa: That's so true. So, start small. Don't start in the storm. Start with waking up in the morning and noticing before you open your eyes, what do you hear? How do the covers feel? Do you hear the birds outside your window? Start with that. And start in little moments, just practicing during the day. Start a conversation with someone you care about, and notice what your mind is saying in response to them, what it's like to notice their face. Start small, build it up, and then start practicing with little tiny, other kinds of discomfort. Sometimes we'll tell people like impatience. When you're waiting in line or in hunger or tiredness, any of those, to just bring your full awareness to that and be like, “What is it like inside this moment right now?” And then you can extend that to, “Okay. So, what if we choose to approach this scary thing? What if we choose to just for a few seconds, notice what it feels like in this uncertain space?” And that's how you might begin to bring it to rumination, be curious about what was the triggering thought. And then before you start ruminating or before you start doing mental rituals, just notice the first thought, and then you don't have to answer that question. And there's different ways to handle that, but curiosity is the beginning. And then stopping the compulsion is ultimately, or undoing it or undermining it in some way is going to be the other important piece. Kimberley: I'd love to hear more about commitment. I always loved-- when I have multiple clients, we joke about this all the time. They'll say, “I had these mental compulsions and you would be so proud. I was so proud. I was able to catch it and pull myself back into the present. And yes, it was such a win. And then I had another thought and you'd be so proud of me. I did the same thing. And then I had another thought and...” Lisa: You're like, “Was that the show that you just did right there?” It's sneaky, huh. Kimberley: And so, I'd love to hear what you're-- and maybe bring it from an ACT perspective or however you would. It's like you're chugging away. “I'm doing good. Look at me go.” But OCD can be so persistent. Lisa: It's so tricky.  Kimberley: And so, is that the commitment piece, do you think? What is that? How would you address that?  Lisa: So, if I'm getting your question right, you're asking about, what do we do when OCD hijacks something that you should do and turns it into a ritual? Is that what you're asking?  Kimberley: Yes. Or it just is OCD turns up the volume as like, “No, no, no, no. You are going to have to tend to me or I'm not going to stop,” kind of thing. Lisa: Yes. That is a commitment piece. And it's funny because there's different ways that I think about this, but it's almost like a little child who has a tantrum. If you keep saying yes, every time they make the tantrum bigger, it's going to end up being a pretty big tantrum. And OCD loves nothing more than a good tantrum. Kimberley: So true. Lisa: And so, the thing you have to do is plan for that and go, “Yeah, it's going to get loud. Yeah, it's going to say whatever it needs to say, and it's going to say the worst thing I can think of.” And I have had my clients call this all sorts of different things like first-order thoughts, second-order thoughts, just different variations on the theme where it's going to ramp up to hook you in. And so, really staying very mindful of that and making a promise to yourself.  One of my clients who helped us a lot in teaching but also in writing stuff that's loud, Ethan, I think said it in this really elegant way. He said, make a promise to yourself. That really matters, even if it's small. It doesn't matter how big it is. But one of his first ones was, under no circumstances, am I going to do X the compulsion? And keep that promise to yourself because if you-- anybody who ever woke up and didn't want to get out of the bed in the morning because, “Ah, too tired, it's too early. I don't really want to go to the gym.” If you know you're in that conversation with yourself about, “Well, maybe just one more minute,” you've already lost. And so, this is a good place again for that ACT piece of diffusion. Noticing your mind or your OCD or your anxiety is pulling you into, “Ah, let's just see if we can string you along here.” And so, what needs to happen is just move your feet and put them on the floor. Don't get into that conversation with yourself. And having that commitment piece, that promise to myself with the added value piece, that really matters. And one other thing that's sometimes helpful that I have-- I'll use this myself, but I also teach my clients, remembering this question: If this is a step towards whatever it is that's really important, am I willing to allow myself to feel these things? Am I willing? And remembering that as a cue. We're not here. It's never about this one exposure. It's about, this is a step towards this other life that you are fighting for. And every single step is an investment in that other life where you're getting closer and you're making it more possible, and just remembering that. I think that that's a really important piece. A Values Tool YOU NEED!  Kimberley: Yeah. It actually perfectly answered the question I had, which is, you're making a commitment, but what to? And it is that long-term version of you that you're moving towards or the value that you want to be living by. Would you suggest-- and I've done a little bit of work on the podcast about values. Maybe one day we can have you back on and you can share more about that, but would you suggest people pick one value, three values? How might someone-- of course, we all have these values and sometimes OCD can take things from us, or anxiety can take those things from us. How would you encourage someone to move in that direction? Lisa: Well, actually, do you want to do a fun thing? Kimberley: I do. Lisa: Okay. So, let's do-- Kimberley: I never would say no to that. I would love to. I'm really curious about this fun thing. Lisa: All right. So, do you like coffee or are you a tea person or neither? Kimberley: Let's go tea. I'm an Australian. If I didn't say tea, I would be a terrible Aussie.  Lisa: They'll kick you off. All right. So, Kim, think about in your life a perfect cup of tea, not just a taste, but a moment with someone maybe you cared about or somewhere that was beautiful or after something big or before something big, or just think about what was a really, really amazing important cup of tea that you've had in your life. Kimberley: Oh, it's so easy. Do I tell you out loud?  Lisa: Yeah. If you want to, that'd be great.  Kimberley: I'll paint you guys a picture. So, I live in America, but my parents live in Australia and they have this beautiful house on a huge ranch. I grew up on a farm. And we're sitting at their bay window and you're overlooking green. It's just rolling hills. And my mom is on my left and my dad is on my right. And it's like milky and there's cookies. Well, they call them biscuits. So, yeah. That's my happy place right there. Lisa: And I could see it in your face when you're talking about it. So, where do you-- does that tell you something about what's really important to you?  Kimberley: Yes. Lisa: What does it tell you? Kimberley: Family and pleasure and just savoring goodness, just slowing down. It's not about winning a race, it's just about this savoring. And I think there's a lot-- maybe something there that I think is important is the green, the nature, the calm of that. Lisa: Yeah. So, as you talk about that, what are you noticing feeling? Kimberley: Oh my God, my heart just exploded 12 times. My heart is filled. That was the funnest thing I've ever done in my whole life. Funnest is not a word. Lisa: What if you could build your life around moments like that? Would that be a well of life for you? Kimberley: I think about that nearly every time I make tea, actually. Lisa: That's how you would help your clients, and that's one way to think about values. Kimberley: Wow. That is so cool. I feel like you just did a spell on me or something. Lisa: You just connected with the stuff that's really important. So, when you think about if I had a hard thing to do, what if it was a step towards more of that in your life? Kimberley: Yeah. Lisa: You see?  Kimberley: It's so powerful. I've never thought that. Oh my God, that was gold. And so, that's the example. Everyone would use that, coffee or tea. Lisa: There you go. Just think about it. And it's funny because we came up with this in our team, maybe three months ago. We keep piloting just new little values exercise, but it's so funny how compelling it is. just thinking about-- gosh. Anyway, I could tell you about mine, but you get the point.  Kimberley: And you know what's so funny too and I will say, and this is completely off topic, there's a social media person that I follow on Instagram. And every time she does a live-- and for some reason, it's so funny that you mentioned this, I love what she talks about, but to be honest, I'm not there to watch her talk. The thing that I love the most is that she starts every live with a new tea and she'll pause the water in front of you. It's like a mindfulness exercise for me. To be honest, I find myself watching to see whether she's making tea. Not that this is about tea, but I think there's something very mindful about those things that where we slow down-- and the water example, she's pouring it and she's watching the tea. And for some reason, it's like a little mini-break in the day for me.  Lisa: I totally agree. It's like the whole sky, the cloud, and the tea and the-- Kimberley: Like Thich Nhat Hanh. Lisa: Yes. I can't remember the quote, but exactly.  Kimberley: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that example. So good. Well actually, if you don't mind, can you tell us your tea? Because I just would love to see if there's a variation. So, what would yours be? Lisa: It was funny because I think I did coffee the first time I did this, but then recently I just did a workshop in Virginia and I was like, “Oh my gosh, tea.” And what came to mind was, when I took my 17-year-old daughter tracking in the Himalayas to Nepal, because I wanted her. She was graduating from high school and I wanted to show her that you could do anything and she really wanted to go. We both really wanted to go to Ever Space Camp. And every morning after trekking nine, 10, 11 hours a day where you're freezing cold, you're exhausted, everything's hurting, and it's also amazing and beautiful, the guides would knock at our door and there would be two of them. And one of them would have a tray of little metal cups. And then the other one would say, “Tea? Sugar? Would you like sugar?” And they would make you, they would bring you, and this was how you woke up every morning, a steaming cup of tea. Sometimes the rooms were 20 below zero. And you'd get out of bed and you'd be so grateful for that warm cup of tea. And that was the tea I remembered. Kimberley: Right. And then the values you pulled from that would be what? Lisa: That moment, it was about being with my daughter and it was about showing her, modeling courage and modeling willingness and just adventure and this love of being in nature and taking a journey and seeing, “Could we do this? And what would it be like?” And just sharing the experience with her. It's just beautiful. And the tea is right in the center of that. So, it's almost not even about the tea, but it's that moment. It's that time and that experience. So amazing. Kimberley: So amazing. Thank you. I'm deeply grateful. That just filled my heart.  Lisa: I'm so glad. I feel so honored that you have had experience. I love that so much. Kimberley: I did. I always tell my clients or my kids or whoever is at-- when I was a kid, my mom, every afternoon when I came home from school, she'd say, “What's the one thing you learn at school today?” And so still, there's always one thing I learn and I always note it like that's the one thing I learned today and that was it. What an amazing moment.  Lisa: I'm so glad.  Kimberley: Okay. I love this. So, we've talked about mindfulness and we've talked about commitment. We've talked about values and we have talked about the acceptance piece, but if we could have just one more question around the acceptance piece. How does that fit into this model? I'm wondering.  Lisa: It's funny because I always feel like that acceptance piece, the word, it means to so many people, I think, tolerance or coping or let's just make this okay. And it doesn't mean any of those things. And so, I've moved more into thinking of it and describing it as, it's like a willingness. What is under the hood of acceptance and am I willing? Because you cannot like something and not want something and also be willing to allow it. And it's almost like this-- again, it involves curiosity about it. It involves squeeze the horse with all the stuff. Get the feet on the floor, even though you're having an argument that's in your head. And so, sometimes people think about it as a feeling and sometimes it is, but a lot of times, it's willingness with your feet. When you think about moms and infants in the middle of the night, I don't think there was ever a moment when I was like, “Oh yeah, the baby's crying at 4:00 in the morning. I'm so excited to get up.” I'm feeling in my heart, no. It's like you're exhausted and it's like the last thing you want to do and 100% you're willing to do it. You choose. And so, that's the difference. And so, I think people get tangled up, not just thinking of it as tolerance, but also waiting for a feeling of willingness to happen. And that's not it. It's a choice. Kimberley: It's gold. Lisa: Yeah, seriously. I mean, it's the same thing. I learn it every day. Trust me, when I fall out of my gym routine or my running routine and I'm off the willingness, and then I'm like, “Yeah, that's not it.” And I have to come back to it. So, it's something we all struggle with. And I think that's really important to know too, but ultimately, it's a choice, not a feeling. Kimberley: Okay. That was perfect. And I'm so happy. Thank you, number one. This is just beautiful for me and I'm sure the gifts just keep going and flowing from this conversation. So, thank you.  Lisa: Thank you for having me. Kimberley: Tell me where people can hear more about you and know your work? Lisa: Well, we're at the New England Center for OCD and Anxiety in Boston. We have recently opened in New York City and in Ireland. So, if anybody is in Ireland, call us, look us up. Kimberley: Wow. Lisa: Yeah. That's been really fun. And there's a few books we have. There's Stuff That's Loud written by Ben Sedley and myself. There's our newest book called Stop Avoiding Stuff with Matt Boone and Jen Gregg. And that's a fun little book. If anybody's interested in learning about ACT, it's really written-- the chapters are each standalone and they're written so that you could read them in about two minutes, and that was on purpose. We wanted something that was really pocket-sized and really simple with actionable skills that you could use right away. And then I have a new book coming out actually really soon. And no one knows this. Actually, I'm announcing this on your show. And I am writing it with my colleague, Sarah Cassidy-O'Connor in Ireland. We are just doing the art for it now and it's a book on ACT for kids with anxiety and OCD.  Kimberley: When is this out? Lisa: Good question. I want to say within the year, but I don't remember when. Kimberley: That's okay.  Lisa: But look for it and check out our website and check out Stuff That's Loud website. We'll post it there and let folks know. But yeah, we're really excited about it. And it'll be published by a UK publisher. So, it's really cute. So, I think the language will be much more like Australia, UK, Ireland for the US, which is really fun because I have a connection to Ireland too. But anyway, there you go.  Kimberley: It's so exciting. Congratulations. So needed. It's funny because I just had a consultation with one of my staff and we were talking about books for kids. And there are some great ones, but this ACT work, I think as I keep saying, there's skills for life.  Lisa: It really is. Kimberley: So important. How many times I've taught my child, even not related to anxiety, just the ACT skill, it's been so important. Lisa: Yeah. Mine too. I think they're so helpful. They were just really helpful with flexibility in so many different areas. Kimberley: Right. I agree. Okay. This is wonderful. Thank you for being on. Like I said, you brought it home.  Lisa: We'll have our cups of tea now. Kimberley: We will Lisa: So nice to talk to you, Kim.  Kimberley: Thank you. Lisa: Thank you.

What You'll Hear In This Episode:Wait - you mean women just don't get to sit back and let a man do all the work in dating?  There's a difference between giving a man space and allowing a man to open up.  Why is being accessible so important to a man, and what does that look like? A date isn't about how to get a man to like you. It's about each person opening up, connecting, and seeing if there is a connection of romance or even friendship that is worth your time.If a man isn't asking you rapid fire questions on a date, it does not mean he doesn't like you or doesn't care about getting to know you.  Lisa defines accessibility and how it creates a safe and loving space for both partners. Lisa shares the beautiful shifts that happened when she started to take the responsibility for herself in every single interaction, and how it showed her the kind of woman she was. Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With LisaEmail the podcast at: podcast@lisashield.comMentioned:Quotes:“There's a difference between giving a man space and allowing a man to open up and perhaps in a way that he's never opened up on any other date.” - Benjamin “Ultimately, a date isn't about how to get a man to pick you. The date is really two people that are ultimately, in the best of all possibilities, each looking for the Guardian of Your Soul.” - Benjamin“When I think about accessibility, I think about creating a safe and loving space for two people to be human with one another.” - Lisa“It doesn't automatically mean that a man doesn't want to get to know you if he's not asking questions.” - Lisa

What You'll Hear In This Episode:What exactly are bioidentical hormones? Dr. Prudence shares examples of clients who got back their life (and libido!) from getting their hormones checked and taking action. Dr. Prudence sees women whose hormones start changing, as early as their mid-30s.What are some symptoms of perimenopause and menopause? Dr. Prudence describes how birth control affects our hormones. Lisa talks about her decision to take bioidentical hormones and how they have helped her out in almost every department. Getting our hormones in balance is the key to embracing our feminine energy. Dr. Prudence walks us through what the typical process looks like when a patient comes to see her.Getting your hormones checked and partnering with a hormone specialist is a form of self-care. Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With LisaEmail the podcast at: podcast@lisashield.comMentioned:The Hall Center Radiance Again and Forever Estrogen MattersQuotes“Menopause is not just a loss of ovarian hormones, but a loss of all hormones.” - Dr. Prudence “Subtle hormone changes or deficiencies can affect every aspect of our life.” - Dr. Prudence “I'm 60 years old and I look and feel better at 60 than I did at 45 or 50!” - Lisa “It's not just the mind and the emotions. It's really the wisdom of the bodies. The sway, the movement, the waves that come from feminine wealth.” - Dr. Prudence

Marathon is a tough challenge. There will be days when you wonder whether the early morning runs, the sweltering heat, and the pressure to win are all worth it. Yet, despite the odds, charity runners still put on their running shoes, hoping to transform the lives of people in need. Without a doubt, completing a marathon is an amazing feat. However, doing it for a good cause always elevates the experience. In this episode, Andrew McCrory talks about his journey running across New Zealand to raise funds for kids with cerebral palsy. He describes the obstacles he faced during the marathon and shares how he overcame them. Finally, Andrew offers advice to those considering undertaking such amazing feats for a good cause. If you're interested in running for a cause, this episode is for you! Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Understand how running can help advance a noble cause. Get advice on how to cope with the effects of long-distance running. Find out how Andrew overcame hurdles, both in ultra-marathons and in life. Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching. Health Optimisation and Life Coaching Are you struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world? Then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, contact us at support@lisatamati.com. Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books. Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful third-party tested NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection. Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Visit Peak Fitness and Health Be a part of Precision Fuel and Hydration by Andy Blow Connect with Megan Stewart Try PerfectAmino  by Dr David Minkoff Know more about Andrew's cause at Give a Little Connect with Andrew Facebook and Instagram  Episode Highlights [3:56] Andrew's Background  Andrew is a loving husband and father. He is an EIT tutor who assists students preparing for careers in the police and defence forces. He works part time at Peak Fitness and Health as an instructor. Andrew had a back injury as a result of an unfortunate event when he was 17 years old. He went back to running after his recovery. Before joining the army, he worked as a mechanic and a farmer. [8:27] Starting Long-Distance Running Andrew was inspired to run across New Zealand to raise funds for children with cerebral palsy. He trained for around two months before he started running in December. The only requirement when taking part in long-distance running is to be physically fit. [11:24] Standing on the Starting Line  Andrew was thrilled to begin his run at Te Mata's Peak because there were many spectators. On day one, finishing the remaining 20 kilometres was a challenge as he continued to hurl. Throughout the first four days of the marathon, Andrew's body continued to cramp.  On the second day, Andrew overcame hurdles as he soothed his blistered feet and endured the burning heat. Running for an extended period causes your feet to swell. Before running a marathon, it is advisable to visit a shoe clinic.  [18:03] Andrew's Supportive Wife Andrew's wife, who is a nurse, has been there for him since he began running. She and Andrew work together to help children with cerebral palsy.  Athletes need the guidance and support of a professional or loved one as they train. [23:40] Coping with the Challenges of Running It doesn't matter how long it takes to finish a run. Instead, do what you can for the day. You can enjoy your run once you stop thinking of it as a race. We should commend people who put themselves out there for others, regardless of whether their initiative succeeds or fails. [33:01] Running for a Cause Andrew's marathon for cerebral palsy brought a large crowd from Auckland. He planned to gather $20,000 at the end of the marathon.  By the 12th day, he had already received half of the planned charity fund. Utilise the features of social media to encourage people to participate and support charity initiatives.  People who have the least usually donate the most because they understand the struggle.  [37:32] Preparing and Understanding Your Body  Andrew changed little in his diet, except for giving up coffee. Athletes need the right combination of protein and amino acids to perform well.  Listen to the full episode to know how amino acids can help you perform and recover better.  [43:13] Bouncing Back  Andrew completed his run across New Zealand in 40 days.  He admits missing the simplicity of marathoning now that he has to deal with the complexities of reality. Allow your body to recover and experience your accomplishment after completing a massive challenge.  [50:49] Valuable Lessons from Marathoning Don't be frightened to take on a tough challenge.  Learn to build a team. Look for someone who can help and motivate you. Seek advice from good people. Always celebrate small wins.  Failure is inevitable. You need to learn how to pick yourself up when you fall. [55:45] The Ultra Marathon Community In the marathon community, it doesn't matter who crosses the finish line first. Everyone encourages one another to get through the event.  The last person to cross the finish line is the toughest and has fought every obstacle known to man. 7 Powerful Quotes [23:42] Andrew: ‘I just got it through my head that it doesn't matter how long it took me to do 50k… It didn't matter. I could only do what I could do' [25:22] Lisa: ‘I don't care whether they make it or not make it… because people who are putting themselves out there on the line to do something epic and for good and for their own sporting achievement as well deserve to be congratulated for giving it their all.' [36:53] Lisa: ‘It does reinforce your belief in humanity because we can get pretty damn cynical in the world that we live in. You know how terrible things can be. Then, you get on the other hand, just amazing people doing amazing things. It's just giving and caring.' [46:15] Lisa: ​​'Please don't just dive into the next thing. Because you have this tendency when you come off the back of something epic that you've just done, and you've achieved, and you've done so well, to rush into something else because there's a big hole in your life.'  [46:49] Lisa: ‘That was the beautiful thing about ultra-marathon running. You only had one problem to solve that day and that was to get you across the finish line —5 0k's away. And that's a beautiful purity of purpose.'  [50:50] Andrew: ‘Don't be afraid to give it a go. But find someone to help you.' [52:54] Andrew: ‘Celebrate the small wins. Success breeds success.' About Andrew Andrew McCrory made a name for himself as a runner for children who couldn't walk. While trapped on his sofa for four months due to an accident, he had plenty of time to consider what he could do once he regained his strength. Thus, he began his campaign for kids with cerebral palsy. Since then, he's run thousands of kilometres in favour of the cause. His most recent accomplishment was running 50 kilometres for 40 days to raise money for children with cerebral palsy and need the costly Selective Dorsal Rhizotomy (SDR) surgery in the United States.  Apart from being an ultra-marathoner, Andrew is an instructor at Peak Fitness and Health and a Services Pathway Tutor at the Eastern Institute of Technology (EIT), where he prepares students for the field of law enforcement. Andrew is also a loving husband and father of two.  Learn more about Andrew's cause on Give a Little. You can also connect with him through his social media accounts: Facebook and Instagram.  Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share Andrew's inspiring story with your family and friends. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa

What You'll Hear In This Episode:How did her work with Lisa help Lynnie keep momentum after getting scammed by a man?How did the Emotionally Naked Dating program lay the framework for Lynnie to continue with the Mastermind? What did she like about the process?Lynnie loves connecting with great women all around the world, and is now part of a true sisterhood.What is different about Lisa and Benjamin than other dating coaches Lynnie has worked with?How did seeing Lisa and Benjamin model the tools and techniques firsthand at a retreat give Lynnie even more inspiration about finding the Guardian of HER Soul? Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With LisaEmail the podcast at: DWDpod@lisashield.comMentioned:Lynnie Marks on InstagramQuotes“You advanced humans are, to me, the guru's of love and relationships.” - Lynnie“I don't hold anything to the outcome. I don't live in the outcome, I live in the process.” - Lynnie“We look to our relationship to guide you from. That's really our guide.” - Lisa“It's a sacred relationship that we all share in that group, and I think it's fun we are all growing together.” - Lisa

What You'll Hear In This Episode:Lisa and Benjamin get real about mistakes they've made in prior relationships and what they learned so it wouldn't become a part of their marriage. How do Lisa and Benjamin process their emotions and solve disagreements quickly? How to be less defensive and more compassionate to both yourself and your partner. The two things women cherish the most, and how we can take the feminine lead and invite your man to give them to you. How to embrace your feminine side and mirror your man's masculine nature in a way he's never felt before. Lisa and Benjamin talk about supporting each other in their careers and dreams, and how they ended up on the great adventure of picking up everything and moving to New Mexico. Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With LisaEmail the podcast at: DWDpod@lisashield.comMentioned:The Four Agreements John Gottman Healers on Healing Quotes“You don't take things personally. And that has been a miracle.” - Benjamin “You never want to hurt me, make me wrong, or diminish me in any way.” - Lisa “It's knowing about how to love yourself and another person.” - Benjamin“I wouldn't be the woman or coach I am today if you weren't the Guardian of My Soul.”  - Lisa“It's about choice, and we made a choice that it will be easy.”  - Benjamin

What you'll learn in this episode: The history of Sculpture to Wear and how Lisa maintains its legacy Why editorial and media coverage is crucial for getting art jewelry recognized as a fine art What the role of a jewelry gallery is Why Lisa always advises artists to keep good records of their work How the bold brooches of the 80s paved the way for today's art jewelry About Lisa M. Berman Lisa M. Berman is an internationally recognized “Ambassador of Wearable Art.” Based in Southern California, her expertise extends to major manufacturing and retail markets, museums and corporations in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Asia and Europe. Lisa is the owner of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. The gallery offers an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects to discerning collectors, media producers and institutions, which have been featured in film, television and publications. Her recently launched Berman Arts Agency offers artist representation, career management, corporate acquisition, sponsorship advisement, museum placement, exhibition curation and education services on the disciplines of fine art, jewelry, design and fashion. Lisa holds degrees in Plastics Manufacturing Technology from California State University Long Beach, Product & Jewelry Design from Otis College of Art & Design and Merchandising/Marketing from Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (FIDM). She has served on the Board of Governors for OTIS College of Art & Design; as Public Relations Chair for the Textile and Costume Council at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA); and on the Museum Collection Board at FIDM. She volunteers for Free Arts for Abused Children, STEAM projects and Art & Fashion Councils. Additional Resources: Sculpture To Wear Website Sculpture To Wear Instagram Sculpture To Wear Facebook Berman Arts Agency Instagram Photos: Lisa M. Berman wearing Archival 18k gold plate PEBBLES Necklace by Robert Lee Morris, her own sterling silver pendant by K. Lamberti, Issey Miyake coat and holding a signed ARTWEAR Catalog (RLM). Photo by Daniel Oropeza NUE Magazine Holiday 2020  Model Neva Cole, Photo by Daniel Oropeza  ICE Collar by Greg Orloff, 2018, $15,000 Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman  NUE Magazine Holiday 2020  Feature article "Powerful Woman of Dissent" from the "Feel the Frill" Exhibition honoring RBG curated by L.M. Berman.  Sculpture: LUX MAXIMUS, Winner of ARTPRIZE 2017 by Daniel Oropeza $350,000.  Model Neva Cole wears Emancipation Collar by 2Roses, 2020, $1,500.  Photo by Daniel Oropeza  Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman  Cover of IONA Magazine  Model wears Beaded Galaxy by 3 Tribes, from our Timeless Measures Exhibition 2006, curated by Lisa M. Berman & Pamela McNeil  1 year collaboration with women from 3 tribes in Africa - elders teaching the younger generation how to bead.  Cuffs (sterling Silver & Copper) by Tana Action  IONA Magazine  Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: “REVEALED” Collar $50,000 (worn to the EMMY Television Academy's Governors Ball) and “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 - both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine, 2001. IONA Magazine  Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: Earrings - 18k gold & aqamarine (NFS), “TRANSITION” Collar, 18k gold, Onyx, Aquamarine $20,000  and “GOLDEN” Cuff, 18k gold, $10,000, made in 2001. Niche Magazine - TOP RETAILER SPIKED, red collar (Collection of Myra Gassman) & Cuffs on left side by Michelle Ritter  “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 -  both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine. Bouquet Ring, Stainless steel & garnet by Wendy Gwen Hacker $800 Collaboration with Sculpture To  Wear Designer Gina Pankowski & MOEN Facet manufacturer. Utlilitary into Wearable Art Cover of W Magazine  - January Jones wears LATTICE necklace (oxidized Sterling Silver) by Gina Pankowski, $4,000 And Bridge Bracelet sterling silver by Sergey Jivetin, SOLD in Private Collection    The images below are from a PHOTO shoot based in the music video Rico Mejia Photography Fashion Beauty Celebrity Lifestyle Mobile number: 323-370-0555 https://www.behance.net/ricomejia https://twitter.com/RicoMejiaFoto https://www.instagram.com/ricomejiaphoto/ Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes bResin and Diamond Bangle by Cara Croninger from 24K Show, 1979, $4,000 Citrus Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $650, and Bracelet $300 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry  Vintage Earrings- acrylic, one of a kind by Frank & Anne Vigneri, 1984, $350 Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt  Resin DROP earrings by Cara Croninger $200 REGINA Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $800 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Bracelet by Genos, NFS in collection of Julie Laughton Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt  BLUE DROP earrings Teri Brudnak $98 HEDGEHOG Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $850 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Clear CUFF by Cara Croninger, NFS collection of L.M. Berman        Cover of Vogue with Cherize Theron     Transcript: Lisa Berman, owner of art jewelry gallery Sculpture to Wear, has been a figure in the art jewelry world for over 20 years, and she has a wealth of insight to share with fellow jewelry lovers. For her second appearance on the Jewelry Journey Podcast, she talked about how she's maintained relationships with hundreds of designers and collectors over the years, what advice she offers the designers she works with, and why art jewelry is coming into its own as a fine art collected by museums. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Berman. Although we share the same last name, I'm not related to Lisa; however, over the years she has become a friend and a trusted dealer. Lisa has been a guest on the show before. Today, we'll have a wide-ranging discussion with less of a focus on a particular piece, more talking about her experience in the jewelry and fashion world. Per our practice, the podcast is audio only. We will be posting photos of many of the pieces Lisa mentions today on our website, which is JewelryJourney.com. This is also a two-part podcast, so please keep your eyes open for our second episode which will air later this week. Please make sure you're a member of our jewelry community by subscribing to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. That way you can listen to both episodes hot of the presses, so to speak. With that, I'd like to welcome Lisa to the program.   Sharon: When you say editorial—you talked about editorial versus advertorial—what do you mean?   Lisa: Years ago, we had magazines like W and Vogue and Vanity Fair, and the word advertorial did not exist. You had true editorial, where you were a new designer, you were creating something different, you had a new statement necklace, and they wanted to feature it. By the way, the vernacular “statement jewelry” wasn't in vogue 25 years ago. We talked about it. Now you see something on the cover and people talk about. From a marketing and selling point, it's a statement piece. That's something we were using in studio jewelry decades ago.    Let's see, we were talking about editorial, working with creative directors of publications. You have a timeline that's three months in advance because you didn't have digital. You had film; you had slides; you had all these timelines that were completely different. Then publications changed. They had to find a way to stay afloat, to stay in business, and like any other business they said, “Look, if you buy an ad, we'll promote you in an editorial article.” That's why you have some galleries now charging artists to physically have their work on the walls, which is something we didn't do, of course.   Sharon: That's interesting. Then you have people like me who walk into a gallery—I didn't know a lot—but depending on the gallery, they might pay to have their work on the wall. Having come from public relations, I immediately look at something to see whether they paid for that article or if it was chosen. I think it's important to point out—people might say, “Well, it sounds dated to be talking about all this print stuff,” but that goes immediately online. All the print is immediately online. There may be some things that never make print that are online, but it's important because whatever you see in print is going to be online.    Lisa: Well, I'll tell you why it's important and relevant. It actually goes back to catalogues and museums. I will get to museums in a second. As much as we want to save the planet and save paper and all of that, museums still demand catalogues for their major exhibitions. That's an important part of collecting. An important part of an artist's career is to have that physical catalogue, that tangible item that can be placed on a bookshelf, or talked about, or brought to a dinner party or a lecture series or whatever it may be. That's really important. An editorial and a printed editorial are the same. Obviously, there are more online publications and it's literally just flipping through the images.    For example, we just filmed a music video with Linda Hikel. We used a number of pieces from Sculpture to Wear in the music video. People loved it. They will use it for promotion, but she called me and said, “We want to capitalize on the fact that you brought such extraordinary work to the video. We want to capture those for editorial.” Then she called me and said, “We actually want to take it a step further. We're thinking about a book,” so these are the conversations. Printed materials are not a thing of the past, thankfully; they're an important element of documentation. That's why I tell artists, when I'm on an artist's tour or in their studio or we're having a conversation, “Please, if you're not a good note taker or you're not good about keeping files, literally keep a box on your desk, and anything—a summary or a note or something in regard to that project—keep it in there. This is so important for telling the story for an exhibition in a museum or just a gallery or online show.”   Sharon: Lisa, you mentioned that makers, jewelers, artists don't understand the role of a gallery. They think, “What am I paying you for?” in a sense. Tell us what your response to that is.   Lisa: I no longer have a physical, permanent location, but I do curate exhibitions. I will collaborate with fine art galleries or other locations to host exhibitions within their space. Even if a show is online, you still get the attachment of being in an exhibition that is part of Sculpture to Wear history and legacy. You have the exposure that I bring to that particular artist, whether it be through my website, through the newsletters I send out, through Art Jewelry Forum, through Indelible, which is my new column for older jewels. That's under the umbrella of Artistar Jewels.   Sharon: Artistar Jewels?   Lisa: Artistar Jewels; I'll tell you about that. Also, there's the collector base. A lot of artists think they pick up the phone and it just happens. Well, it does in some instances. It happens because I've cultivated a relationship for five to eight to 10 years. Yes, I can ask for a favor. Yes, I can propose an idea and I will be taken seriously because there's a track record of credibility. That's important for artists to understand. I think a lot of them coming from major schools do understand that. That is something that's part of their curriculum.    Sharon: You mentioned the importance of keeping all your sketches and notes and everything like that because it helps the gallerist tell a story.   Lisa: Right. In my garage, I literally have over two decades of artists' submissions. I know it sounds crazy. I have artists' submissions that were done on slides and then zip drives. I don't even know how I will convert those images, but I was so afraid of throwing away some of the most magnificent images I've ever seen and shown. Then each one of my exhibitions is in chronological order in a binder with the title and if there's any traveling accompanying that exhibition. I think I learned that from my days in the fashion industry, because you had to document, document, document. That has served me well, because if you don't document it, it never happened. So, you've got the documentation of the visuals and the notes and the advertising, and those are really important. Of course, now artists are saving all of that online, but hopefully there's still something tactile to incorporate.   Sharon: It's so important for credibility, whether it's online or not. Ideally, it's legitimizing it. I know for me, when I'm considering a piece of jewelry, if I know the artist has been in this museum or that museum or it's in the writeup, that makes a difference to me. It weighs more in favor of purchasing something, that credibility.   Lisa: Yes, and that's a whole round robin of a conversation. For example, the pieces I placed in LACMA on behalf Lynn Altman—unfortunately, Lynn is deceased. She was one of my favorite and dearest people on the planet. The three pieces that LACMA acquired were actually owned by me first, so it tells me I have a good eye, and it will also tell a collector I have a good eye. I know the process; I know what museums might be interested in. Mostly whatever I thought was interesting or fascinating, that's what I would collect, but it does matter. It plays a role in credibility in the conversation, if I'm going to be working with a client for consulting, either with a one-on-one client, with an artist or with a company or museum. By the way, one of the misnomers with museums and donations is that people think, “Oh, I have these amazing pieces and I want to donate them.” That's a very long process.   Sharon: From what I've heard, it's a challenge.   Lisa: It's a challenge because good museums will only accept pieces they can properly store. Of course, everyone wants them to be on display 100 percent of the time, but you can't do it. That's a conversation as well. You've got museums looking to acquire pieces, but they need funding for it. There's a whole program with their donors and collectors; “How do we buy this?” Then there are pieces they want that are being donated to them, but maybe they're going under renovation. Whatever the story may be, they want to make sure they're going to acquire them and be able to sort them, so that during their downtime another museum doesn't take them. It's really testing out there.   Sharon: When I've heard of collectors who have donated their collections, it sounds like it's been a long process. It's been something that took years before they even decided to do it. They were being wooed, or they would ask the museum, “What should I buy? What would you like to see in the collection?” that sort of thing. It doesn't sound like you just drive up and unload your station wagon.   Lisa: Oh, no.   Sharon: Do people have station wagons anymore?   Lisa: I don't know. They're called SUVs.   Sharon: Yes, SUVs.   Lisa: At least at a reputable location, that is definitely not the case. I think it's a very exciting time because you have people creating these secondary market pieces, people auctioning them, collecting them, and then you have some of the most dynamic makers. What's interesting to me is also the variations of ages from very young, 19 to 20, and then you have some jewelers I've met that were famous. They were architects or sculptors, and they wanted to change direction.    I've also talked to some of them in regards to ageism. They can't apply for certain grants because they're too old for one at 66. There are a lot of new conversations, like how we've had to learn to communicate with this new technology in Zoom. Life throws us curve balls and we go with it, and there are different trends, too. Brooches were so important probably 20 years ago and they still are, but you had it peak with the “Brooching it Diplomatically” book and Madeline Albright. For many years, large-scale collars were important. You have the Susan Lewin book that just came out and the exhibition book about rings. It's exciting. This field is constantly growing, constantly renewing itself, and I'm always inspired by it.    Sharon: I think we had a conversation once where you told me that brooches helped people segue to art jewelry. People could understand those and wear an avant garde brooch before they would wear something in their hair or an earring or something like that.   Lisa: Yes. People won't believe this, but fashion also played a role in that. For example, 25, 30 years ago, you had women entering the workforce—I know I'm going to get backlash on this—but they were wearing these blazers. So, they can't wear a large collar, plus they're downplaying it. They still want to make a nonverbal statement, and the easiest thing is to put a large-scale piece on a lapel. The ideal wall to place a brooch was on a blazer. For example, I'm wearing a Miyake shirt today. You can't put anything heavy through that. These blazers and large-scale shoulders, that was a perfect wall space to wear these pieces. For makers, these are the easiest way for them to literally make sculpture to wear. It was in a format that made sense to them, a smaller-scale sculpture that was on the left shoulder most often, but there are no rules now. Literally everything goes.    I happen to personally enjoy large-scale collars, just because I like to be hands free and my hands are always moving when I'm talking. I don't wear a lot of rings. When I had much shorter hair, I wore giant earrings. Now I don't, but it's all about personal preference. It was also interesting with the gallery. Someone would see a necklace or a piece in a feature editorial in the Los Angeles Times or W or whatever it may be, and they would call and say, “That's the piece I want.” Then, ultimately, they would come to the gallery and try it on, and they thought, “You know what? This just doesn't sit right on me. I want to look at something else,” or we would specifically have the artist there to meet with them and talk with them.   Sharon: You've talked about the fact that relationships are so important. I know what you mean. It's not just a matter of calling up Sally Smith who you've never talked to before and doesn't know you from Adam, versus calling somebody you've worked with or who knows you always bring her great pieces or something interesting. I want people to understand what you do and why they should call you, because you have your fingers in so many different areas.   Lisa: You know what's interesting about your statement, Sharon, is that I do. I am that person who will call anyone. I have the zero-fear factor.   Sharon: That's great.   Lisa: Completely, because the fact is the worst they can say is no. I'm on a phone call and I present the idea. I think it makes sense, otherwise I wouldn't call them or present them with the idea or exhibition or whatever it may be. I literally will pick up the phone, or I have a crazy idea and I will create a way to connect the dots. Most people think, “Oh my gosh! I would have never thought about that.” Often it's thinking about who's in that particular trade industry, how can we possibly get sponsorships, what's a different avenue. Let's think out of the box. We always hear that: let's think out of the box. I like to be creative, and I like communication. I literally will pick up the phone, and I always like to have a conversation.    So many people hide behind this little mouse on their computer or Facebook or Instagram or private messages. I say if we're going to work together or any of this, I have to have a conversation. Let's go on WhatsApp. If you're in a different time zone, a different county—it doesn't matter if they're speaking Latvian and they're mumbling through a translator, you just get their essence. That's really important, especially now with the lack of human interaction. I'm always an advocate for having a conversation because you never know where it's going to lead, that next step, that next unturned stone. You learn so much more when you have the conversation with the person.   Sharon: I always envy you people who have zero fear factor. I don't fall in that category, so I think it's great. Why should people call you today? To curate an exhibition?   Lisa: Thank you. I do a number of things. Obviously, first and foremost, I do represent certain artists' careers on an ongoing basis, whether it's curating exhibitions for their particular body of work. I can also host a show where we would sell work, because that's the fuel that makes the engine go: selling artists' work, curating exhibitions, connecting them to editorial, getting them placement for exposure. I would say 50 percent of what I do is a PR agency. That is the bulk of most of my day. It's writing articles, sending out newsletters, Instagram, Facebook posts, calling institutions or perhaps sponsors who are creating an exhibition, and creating those business alignments to further these ideas. Whenever I'm on Zoom conferences, I'm taking notes. Editorial, promotional, selling—it's like an ad agency as well.   Sharon: And when you say artists, that's bench jewelers, retailers, makers and fine artists.   Lisa: Yes, now I have branched out with the Berman Art Agency. That umbrella encompasses the very few select sculptors and photographers I've worked with throughout the years. For example, Bonnie Schiffman, she's a very well-known, iconic photographer in 16 museums worldwide. She came to me to make a commission piece in a gallery with Claudia Endler. That was an heirloom piece, and she wears it every day. Now we have this relationship where I'm working with her photographs. We've done shows throughout LA. I picked up the phone and created a museum exhibition for her back east. Some of these artists have had a rich career, and then they either hit a lull or they're on hiatus. How do I resurrect this? It's looking at those types of people. Like Marc Cohen—   Sharon: We just had Marc Cohen on the podcast with his box jewelry, which is so unique.   Lisa: I've known Marc for almost 35 years. I'm working with him on his 40 years of archives to make sense of them and understand how to present wearable art box sculptures, which are little, unique maquettes of a stage, like a Broadway stage. He incorporates iconic photography, and each of those tells a story. I'll be wearing one, and from across the room, someone will point at me and say, “That's the box man.” He's done a lot of much larger installations at the Museum of Jerusalem and some other work. So, presenting that work, how do we package that? How do we package it for a museum exhibition, for a gallery exhibition? Of course, we want to do a book.   Then I was working with Teri Brudnak. She was Karen McCreary's partner for Star Trek. We met 35 years ago in a plastics technology class. She and Karen were making work for Star Trek: The Next Generation, the television show. We were the only three women in this class, and people were making fun of us until they would see their pieces on television within the two-week period. They stopped the teasing and said, “O.K., this is something.” For example, the Skirball Museum has a Star Trek exhibition. How do we incorporate the legacy of what Terry and Karen created with their jewelry? It's always about peeking around the curve and finding a placement that makes sense. It is in alignment in an authentic way with their artist's voice and what they've created; not necessarily a stretch, but completely in alignment with their work and their creativity.   Sharon: Lisa, thank you so much. I learned so much today about how an artist has to sell their work. I know that's where so many get caught. Thank you so much for being here today.   Lisa: I appreciate the opportunity to tell your audience about this. It's very important. Thank you, Sharon.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: The history of Sculpture to Wear and how Lisa maintains its legacy Why editorial and media coverage is crucial for getting art jewelry recognized as a fine art What the role of a jewelry gallery is Why Lisa always advises artists to keep good records of their work How the bold brooches of the 80s paved the way for today's art jewelry About Lisa M. Berman Lisa M. Berman is an internationally recognized “Ambassador of Wearable Art.” Based in Southern California, her expertise extends to major manufacturing and retail markets, museums and corporations in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Asia and Europe. Lisa is the owner of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. The gallery offers an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects to discerning collectors, media producers and institutions, which have been featured in film, television and publications. Her recently launched Berman Arts Agency offers artist representation, career management, corporate acquisition, sponsorship advisement, museum placement, exhibition curation and education services on the disciplines of fine art, jewelry, design and fashion. Lisa holds degrees in Plastics Manufacturing Technology from California State University Long Beach, Product & Jewelry Design from Otis College of Art & Design and Merchandising/Marketing from Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (FIDM). She has served on the Board of Governors for OTIS College of Art & Design; as Public Relations Chair for the Textile and Costume Council at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA); and on the Museum Collection Board at FIDM. She volunteers for Free Arts for Abused Children, STEAM projects and Art & Fashion Councils. Additional Resources: Sculpture To Wear Website Sculpture To Wear Instagram Sculpture To Wear Facebook Lisa Berman Instagram Photos: Lisa M. Berman wearing Archival 18k gold plate PEBBLES Necklace by Robert Lee Morris, her own sterling silver pendant by K. Lamberti, Issey Miyake coat and holding a signed ARTWEAR Catalog (RLM). Photo by Daniel Oropeza NUE Magazine Holiday 2020  Model Neva Cole, Photo by Daniel Oropeza  ICE Collar by Greg Orloff, 2018, $15,000 Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman  NUE Magazine Holiday 2020  Feature article "Powerful Woman of Dissent" from the "Feel the Frill" Exhibition honoring RBG curated by L.M. Berman.  Sculpture: LUX MAXIMUS, Winner of ARTPRIZE 2017 by Daniel Oropeza $350,000.  Model Neva Cole wears Emancipation Collar by 2Roses, 2020, $1,500.  Photo by Daniel Oropeza  Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman  Cover of IONA Magazine  Model wears Beaded Galaxy by 3 Tribes, from our Timeless Measures Exhibition 2006, curated by Lisa M. Berman & Pamela McNeil  1 year collaboration with women from 3 tribes in Africa - elders teaching the younger generation how to bead.  Cuffs (sterling Silver & Copper) by Tana Action  IONA Magazine  Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: “REVEALED” Collar $50,000 (worn to the EMMY Television Academy's Governors Ball) and “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 - both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine, 2001. IONA Magazine  Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: Earrings - 18k gold & aqamarine (NFS), “TRANSITION” Collar, 18k gold, Onyx, Aquamarine $20,000  and “GOLDEN” Cuff, 18k gold, $10,000, made in 2001. Niche Magazine - TOP RETAILER SPIKED, red collar (Collection of Myra Gassman) & Cuffs on left side by Michelle Ritter  “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 -  both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine. Bouquet Ring, Stainless steel & garnet by Wendy Gwen Hacker $800 Collaboration with Sculpture To  Wear Designer Gina Pankowski & MOEN Facet manufacturer. Utlilitary into Wearable Art Cover of W Magazine  - January Jones wears LATTICE necklace (oxidized Sterling Silver) by Gina Pankowski, $4,000 And Bridge Bracelet sterling silver by Sergey Jivetin, SOLD in Private Collection    The images below are from a PHOTO shoot based in the music video Rico Mejia Photography Fashion Beauty Celebrity Lifestyle Mobile number: 323-370-0555 https://www.behance.net/ricomejia https://twitter.com/RicoMejiaFoto https://www.instagram.com/ricomejiaphoto/ Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes bResin and Diamond Bangle by Cara Croninger from 24K Show, 1979, $4,000 Citrus Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $650, and Bracelet $300 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry  Vintage Earrings- acrylic, one of a kind by Frank & Anne Vigneri, 1984, $350 Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt  Resin DROP earrings by Cara Croninger $200 REGINA Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $800 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Bracelet by Genos, NFS in collection of Julie Laughton Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt  BLUE DROP earrings Teri Brudnak $98 HEDGEHOG Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $850 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Clear CUFF by Cara Croninger, NFS collection of L.M. Berman        Cover of Vogue with Cherize Theron     Transcript: Lisa Berman, owner of art jewelry gallery Sculpture to Wear, has been a figure in the art jewelry world for over 20 years, and she has a wealth of insight to share with fellow jewelry lovers. For her second appearance on the Jewelry Journey Podcast, she talked about how she's maintained relationships with hundreds of designers and collectors over the years, what advice she offers the designers she works with, and why art jewelry is coming into its own as a fine art collected by museums. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Berman. Although we share the same last name, I'm not related to Lisa; however, over the years she has become a friend and a trusted dealer. Lisa has been a guest on the show before. Today, we'll have a wide-ranging discussion with less of a focus on a particular piece, more talking about her experience in the jewelry and fashion world. Per our practice, the podcast is audio only. We will be posting photos of many of the pieces Lisa mentions today on our website, which is JewelryJourney.com. This is also a two-part podcast, so please keep your eyes open for our second episode which will air later this week. Please make sure you're a member of our jewelry community by subscribing to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. That way you can listen to both episodes hot of the presses, so to speak. With that, I'd like to welcome Lisa to the program. Lisa: Thank you, Sharon. I'm so delighted to be back here again. Sharon: It's great to have you. For those who don't know your background, can you give us a brief overview of your background? Lisa: Of course. I grew up in the fashion industry and had a career in fashion design. I had an accessory business for many, many years, and then I acquired the name of Sculpture to Wear Gallery in 1998. Of course, that was originally launched in 1973 in New York City in the Park Plaza Hotel. I launched my first exhibition at Bergamot Station Art Center, which I'll tell you about in a second, on January 16, 1999. I'm proud to be the second owner of Sculpture to Wear Gallery. Now, location is important. Location, location, location, you've heard a million times in real estate. Bergamot Station Art Center is in Santa Monica, California, Southern California, and it was formerly the home to 25 thriving contemporary galleries and the Santa Monica Museum of Art. It was, I believe, a five-acre complex. Now the Red Line runs through it. Sharon: The Red Line being the Metro. Lisa: Yes, the metro. Anyway, that's where I started my journey. I actually met my former husband, Robert Berman, there as well. It was the heyday. It was like Soho. It was the happening place on the West Side; it was a lot of fun. Every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night for 10 years, there were gallery openings. There was constant influx of artists and jewelers and collectors and educators and writers, so it was definitely the place to be. Sharon: What was groundbreaking about—first, it was groundbreaking that Sculpture to Wear was on the West Coast, but what was groundbreaking about the original Sculpture to Wear? Lisa: The owner, Joan Sonnabend, was basically located in Boston, but she had a tiny, little, postage-stamp gallery. Robert Lee Morris told me it was only about 400 square feet. The delineation was that she only showed work by signed artists. For example, you had Alexander Calder making jewelry, and he actually made his jewelry. There were pieces by Picasso; those were in addition to the series and those were made by other craftsmen. Of course, you have people like Robert Lee Morris, whose entire career was launched at the original Sculpture to Wear. The idea was that she was selling one-of-a-kind, sculptural jewelry made by fine artists, not by jewelry artists. That was the idea. Sharon: From what I've heard, nobody else was doing that then. This was unusual. Lisa: It was extremely unusual. The only person that was doing something similar was in Philadelphia. That's our beloved Helen Drutt, who is about to turn 91. She was also very monumental and important in bringing studio jewelry and wearable art to the United States, but she worked with jewelers and makers, mostly in Europe. Sharon: How did you know the Sculpture to Wear license was available? How did you find out about that? Lisa: I was introduced to the idea through Cindy Forbes, who's now Cindy Brown. She ultimately ended up being my gallery manager. We had a conversation, one thing led to another, and that was kind of it. It was available, so I capitalized on that and the domain and the name. When I acquired the name, I felt it was very important that every decision I made was legacy-driven, because it was a very important part of history. This is not something I just launched; they had an important history and legacy on the East Coast. That's why for my business card, I purposely selected the title of “visionary proprietor,” because it kept me on point and on target. At first, I got a little flak from it, but as I explained, that kept me on point to do my best. That was it. Sharon: Flak because people said, “Oh my gosh—”  Lisa: A lot of gumption that I would profess to be this visionary proprietor. Now, everyone on social media is a visionary and all the museum collectors' groups are visionaries. I don't know; I guess I was ahead of the curve. Sharon: You are a visionary. Lisa: This was 23 years ago. There you go.  Sharon: So, you opened at Bergamot Station and then you moved the gallery to Montana Avenue in Santa Monica? Well, they're both in Santa Monica. Lisa: I was in Bergamot Station from 1999 until 2003. In Bergamot Station, I had two separate little locations. In 2003, I moved to a much larger location. That was on Montana Avenue at the cross street of 11th Street. I moved there knowing I was a destination, that I had built a brand with Sculpture to Wear and with the artists through a number of different ideologies and media and exposure. We'll get into that in a second, but I knew I was a destination. I was not going to rely on walk-in traffic on Montana Avenue, like so many of the other stores did. That was really important, that I had built up that mailing list, the collector base. People would be traveling, or friends would be coming in from out of town and our collectors would pick them up at the airport and say, “We have to take you to Sculpture to Wear first.” It was those kinds of relationships we had built there. Sharon: Did people stumble on your gallery in Bergamot Station? How did they find you? Lisa: Bergamot had 25 galleries, so at any given day at any given moment, you had tons of people walking around. It's completely different than it is today; of course during the pandemic, but completely different. There was no problem reaching collectors, and I was the complete anomaly. You have this sculptural jewelry, and it was an education to a new audience. A lot of these people weren't necessarily open to the idea of jewelry not having diamonds or gold. People that had an educated eye in regard to design, like architects, were some of our first clients because they understood the design. It literally was a small-scale sculpture.  I think my passion for that and some of the artists were also incorporated into that conversation. I made a request of any artists that were local to the gallery that they do three things: they had to work in the gallery, they had to come and help set up an exhibition that wasn't theirs, and they had to attend an opening that wasn't theirs. I wanted them to understand the role of a gallery and what we did. At first it was, “Well, why I would give you 50 percent of the retail price?” This was a demonstration for them to learn why. There wasn't any artist who partook in those three requests that came to me and said, “No, this isn't right.” They all were shocked at what we did on a daily basis. Robert Lee Morris, I told him about that, and he was shocked. He said, “You did that?”  Sharon: You mentioned Robert Lee Morris. A lot of people will know who he is, especially New Yorkers or fashionistas, but tell us who he is and why he's important. Lisa: Robert Lee Morris is an icon. He's been designing jewelry for over 50 years. He's the only designer to earn the Coty Award for his jewelry design an unprecedented three times. He was the designer who made the big, bold, gold jewelry in conjunction with Donna Karan's black cashmere new work uniform in the late 80s, early 90s. Digressing to understand why he's important in my world, our world of art jewelry, is that he was one of the most important and prolific designers at the original Sculpture to Wear in New York.  He was self-taught. He was literally found at a tiny, little show in an offbeat path. He was immersed in this incredible work from Alexander Calder, Salvador Dalí, Louise Nevelson—amazing artists who already had these incredible careers, and as it turns out, people loved Robert's work. He outsold all the other artists combined at Sculpture to Wear. Then he launched his own gallery. After Sculpture to Wear closed, he launched Artwear. That launched a number of careers from a lot of famous artists, jewelers, studio jewelers, some of whom are still with us and some are not. That's his legacy; first at Sculpture to Wear, then Artwear. He has these amazing archives, and we'll talk about how editorial and prior images play a role in the secondary market. That might be a good place to talk about that. Sharon: O.K., please. Lisa: What's a phenomenon for me is that when I started and someone would ask if I sold jewelry, I knew the context. They would immediately think of CZ or— Sharon: Engagement rings. Lisa: Engagement rings. I said, “No, that's not at all what I do,” and I would always be wearing a piece. I was always wearing largescale pieces of jewelry. At that time when I first opened my gallery, I had very short hair; I think it was two inches long. People may not have remembered my name, but they would point at me from across the room and say, “Oh, that's the jewelry lady. That's the Sculpture to Wear lady,” and that was just fine.  This type of work, like photography 80 or 60 years ago, was not accepted in the realm of a fine art museum. Now you see photography auctioned at over $1 million, and some of the most incredible collections in the world are simply photography. Art jewelry is now collected in some specific fine art institutions, and that is for a number of reasons. First of all, it's because of exposure from editorial and media, and also because of the stewardship of specific collectors and designers like Helen Drutt, who bequeathed her collection to the Houston Fine Art Museum. I think it was almost a decade ago, and there's an incredible book. It's on my bookshelf. I can see it from here; it's very orange and large. She wanted her collection to be viewed at a fine arts museum versus a craft museum, and that started that conversation.  Lois Boardman on the West Coast donated her collection to LACMA, LA County Museum of Art, I believe five years ago. Also, for example, the Renwick Gallery at the Smithsonian has been collecting this work for a lot longer. For example, Jen Mandel and I were there for her induction into the Smithsonian. That was incredible. We were standing right next to a piece made by Alexander Calder, and that's where her vitrine was placed. It's really about this conversation, and I think it's a conversation of education.  As for the secondary market, we were just attending the Bonhams preview for the Crawford Collection. That's an unprecedented phenomenon, to have a collection of that level, of that stature, being auctioned by Bonhams without diamonds, without gold. There are a few elements and pieces to that, but you're looking at Art Smith pieces, modernists, studio jewelers. This is a very exciting and fertile time to be involved in studio and art jewelry. This is what I've been doing for the last 22, 25 years. We're at a very exciting place and there are a number of forums, especially with Covid and Zoom, with Art Jewelry Forum having open conversations about this, introducing collectors to artists and, of course, your podcast. There are a lot of variations and factors for the secondary market. Sharon: Lisa, because your jewelry and art jewelry in general is still avant garde—although it's coming into its own—do you think collectors or people like you are going to say, “O.K., what's next? What's on the horizon now? That's become old hat.” It hasn't, but do you think people are going to move on? Lisa: Sharon, I hope not. Within the genre of studio jewelry and wearable art, it has progressed and become so sophisticated. There are so many different makers out there, especially with the internet connecting us. When I first started in 1999, we didn't really have the internet; we barely had email, and now that's how everyone communicates. I think that people's creativity, the way people wear pieces and where they wear them—the reality is that we're not going anyplace right now during the pandemic, and I'm looking at different generations and how to include that next generation in collecting. For example, some of my first clients were in their 60s and 70s when they started collecting, and some are no longer with us. So, how do we engage their family members? You're our most recent convert to art jewelry. My gallery was so close to your house, yet you would have had no interest in what we did. I think it's a journey. Can you say someone's going to have a different trend? No.  I also think technology has played an important role not only in studio jewelry and the exposure, but also the techniques. People are using laser cutting, 3D printing. Technology has also been accepted into fine arts institutions and it has blurred the lines of the conversation of craft and fine art. Even five years ago, there was a delineation that was very distinct. There are still institutions that are not interested in immersion, but I think technology has been a friend, not a foe, to studio jewelers and the paths they can cross. Sharon: I do have to tell a story. Lisa and I were laughing because I lived close to where her gallery used to be. I lived not so far in the Valley, 10 miles away. I was never in your gallery, but I remember seeing an ad one day and thinking, “Who is going to wear this stuff?”  Lisa: And now the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Sharon: It was way out. When you say that people who were older started collecting it, that's the sort of people who don't automatically say, “Wow, that's so new and so cool.” Lisa: My collectors—and I'm sure a number of the gallerists across the United States who have been around for decades would say the same—our clientele, they're not interested in trends. If they open a Vogue, they might see a dress they like, but they're not going to buy it because it's on trend or in fashion. All my clientele, they're well-traveled; they're well-heeled; they're generally educated. They're willing to be avant garde. They don't want to wear the same thing everyone else is wearing, so it's a little bit different. The whole conversation now is that there are younger generations. I just met an incredible student at USC at the Bonhams preview. She's running this entire magazine department in her off time while she's full-time at USC. That's to reach a new collector base and new makers, but that's exciting. That's what makes it viable. Sharon: Yes, it keeps on going. Lisa: Right. That was one of the things I wanted to talk about in regards to when I first started in 1999: it was not only the relationships we built with the artists and the collectors, but we also had our version of social media, which was just printed publications. We didn't have social media, so building relationships with well-known stylists, who were either Emmy award winners or high-profile people that worked with celebrities, that was really important. We got to the point where they would literally call me up with the theme, tell me what it was, and I would already pull the pieces and have a box ready for them. We had a shorthand. That was, again, a relationship that would have to be cultivated. It was very exciting, and that's part of building the legacy of why this work is important. For example, Robert Lee Morris is pulling out his archives. Part of the excitement of these presentations is showing some of the editorial, these great magazine covers and shows that these pieces were included in. I have two decades of binders of images. So, that's very exciting, to show the relevance 20 years ago to now.

Are you facing an obstacle that you fear you can't overcome, or a milestone you can't seem to reach? Don't let this emotion trap you; everyone experiences difficulties when starting something new. Face the challenge head-on! Conquering will make you stronger. And what better way to challenge yourself than by running a marathon?   This week, Angie and Trevor Spencer from the Marathon Training Academy join us for a conversation on all things marathon running. They share their experiences about their running journey and the marathoning community they created. Angie discusses how she got into marathoning and how it led to their podcast. They also recount their most memorable marathons and the lessons that they learned along the way. Finally, we learn the value of facing challenges, staying in the present, and paying attention to our overall health.  If you want to overcome life's obstacles and know how to train for a marathon, this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn more about Marathon Training Academy and how Angie and Trevor can help you train for a marathon.  Discover how you can keep challenging yourself.  Understand that we're all built differently.    Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  A new programme, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September to Peak Wellness!  Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:  #8: Dean Karnazes - The Road to Sparta #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova Newest Episode with Dean Karnazes  A Runner's High: My Life in Motion by Dean Karnazes Marathon Maniacs 50 States Marathon Club Spartan Race Spartan Up Podcasts Can You Endure? Lisa Tamati and Joe de Sena The Spartan Way by Joe de Sena Marathon Training Academy: Website | Podcast | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook      Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [05:43] About Marathon Training Academy Inspired by Angie's experiences with marathons, Angie and Trevor started Marathon Training Academy back in 2010. Marathon Training Academy helps people learn how to train for a marathon. They also provide tips, strategies, and principles on how to run marathons well.  To date, the show has over 10.8 million downloads.  [08:15] Angie's Marathoning Career Angie shares that we need to be careful about comparing our accomplishments to others.  At first, she started running to lose weight. After giving birth to her second child, Angie signed up for her first 5k race.  Then, she decided she needed a bigger challenge, so she signed up for her first marathon.  Although the experience itself was miserable, Angie knew that she wanted to experience the feeling of finishing a marathon again.  Her personal experiences paved the way for Marathon Training Academy. She wanted to teach others how to train for a marathon so that they won't get injured.  [14:19] Learning How to Train for a Marathon to Avoid Mistakes Many runners think they don't need coaches, but it's essential to have guidance.   Seek good advice on how to train for a marathon so you can reduce injuries.  Being part of a community can also help you avoid costly mistakes.   [16:14] Marathon Training Academy's Growth They started in 2010, around the second wave of podcasting. Back then, many people were still not aware of what podcasts are.  We're now in the fourth wave of podcasting, where even news agencies and TV shows have podcasts.  Trevor shared that connecting with their audience helped build the community from the start.  So, they would do shout-outs during their episodes. They are also active on social media.   Angie and Trevor also recognise the value of their audience's time. So, they try to keep their episodes short while giving out as much valuable information as possible. [20:31] Angie's Journey Towards 50 Marathons in 50 States Angie first heard about running challenges when she encountered the Marathon Maniacs. You can get into this club if you do two races in two weeks or three in 90 days.  At first, she thought that she wasn't up to the challenge, but she proved herself wrong. We often make excuses about not being able to do something. If you surround yourself with people taking on these big challenges, you push yourself as well.  She then challenged herself to run 50 races in 50 states. This endeavour took 12 years. Trevor shares that Angie ran her 50th marathon the fastest. This achievement only proves that age can't stop you from challenging yourself.   [24:47] We're All Different We're all built differently, so don't feel pressured to do back-to-back marathons. Find what works best for you and your health.  Don't be caught up in the misconception that running marathons can slim you down.  Also, don't compare yourself to others — focus on yourself and your progress.  [29:10] Angie and Trevor's Most Memorable Races Trevor's favourite race was the Jungfrau Marathon in Switzerland because of the views. He talks more about the experience in the full episode. Meanwhile, Angie loves the Loch Ness Marathon in Scotland. She also enjoys several other races in the US.  Trevor shares that his toughest race was a 50k race in Montana. He admits that he wasn't able to train for it.  On the other hand, Angie's toughest race is the Leadville Trail Marathon. Located in Colorado, this race starts at 10,000 feet and continues to go up.  [34:23] Lessons Learned from Running Marathons Marathons can teach you a lot about life. As people, we're continuously changing and evolving.  Running accomplishments are good. However, you need to take care of your overall health as you train for a marathon.  We also have to learn how to appreciate the present and the challenges that come with it. Doing hard things prepares you for the struggles ahead. Marathoning teaches you to have a singular focus to reach your goals. [38:50] How Running Marathons Builds Resilience When you do hard things, it becomes easier to push through the obstacles in life. This idea is called obstacle immunity. It's important to acknowledge difficult situations, but don't let that stop you. Instead, use these emotions to fuel you.  Once you overcome a challenge, your horizon expands. You see the other battles you can overcome.  [43:59] How Angie and Trevor Balances Life Angie shares that being self-employed helps them find the time to run and train for a marathon.  They also try to include their children in the marathoning journey.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘Running is putting one step in front of the other and then being open to learning.' ‘I think doing things in community makes it so much richer.' ‘A lot of times we make excuses why we can't do something and sometimes, it seems very valid at the moment. But it's all a matter of priorities.' ‘For most of us, it is about you versus you. I think that's the beautiful thing about this sport. That we can all do this together but it's actually each of our journeys.' ‘It is important to have goals and everything, but I think it's also important to just look at your overall health.' ‘If I can't be happy now, I'm not going to be happy in the future. If I accomplish these goals, there's always going to be something else to chase.' ‘Having done hard things in the past prepares you for those challenges that you never wanted to take on in the first place.'   About Angie and Trevor Angie and Trevor Spencer started the Marathon Training Academy Podcast in 2010 to empower and inspire people to achieve better health with marathons. The show shares simple and actionable tips on how to train for a marathon.  Angie delved into the world of marathons after having her second child. However, she was plagued by training injuries. So, she was determined to find a better way to train for a marathon. Thus, the Marathon Training Academy was born.  She has since run 66 marathons with a PR of 3:19:55. She is also a Registered Nurse and a USATF Level 1 and RRCA Level 2 certified running coach. Meanwhile, Trevor is the manager and producer of the Marathon Training Academy. He has completed 17 marathons, one 50k, 21 half-marathons, and a Spartan Trifecta. Want to learn more about Marathon Training Academy? Check out their website and listen to their episodes on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, and Spotify.  You can also reach out to them on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.            Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends to inspire them to seek challenges and teach them why it's crucial to train for a marathon well. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You can also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Transcript Of The Podcast  Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone. Lisa Tamati here at Pushing the Limits. Welcome back to the show. Today, I have Trevor and Angie from the Marathon Training Academy in the United States, really well-known podcasters and run coaches. So our equivalent, over in the States. But these guys have been going for a long time and doing fantastic things. I heard their podcast when I was looking for information on my friend Dean Karnazes's latest book and listened to the podcast. I thought these guys are really rock stars, so I reached out to them. I have them on the show today so really exciting. They're in Montana in the United States, and they've got some great ideas and great information for you. This is one for the runners out there, and we get into all sorts of topics as well. Really, really exciting.  Before we head on over to the show, just want to let about our epigenetics program. We'd love you to come and do our flagship program about epigenetics to help you understand your genetics and how to optimise. This is really the future of personalised health is understanding what your genes are doing. All your health professionals should be personalising everything to your own genetics, and this information is pretty damn valuable. If you want to have a user manual for your own body, understand what food you should have, what types of exercise you'll benefit mostly from, your mood and behaviour, your hormones, what predispositions you have, all this fantastic information that you'll get about yourself when you go through this program.  Then, we can help you actually put it into place so how do you actually... Because it's great to get information and reports. A lot of the DNA reports that you get, you basically get 'Oh, that's nice' and it's a report and you stick it in your top drawer because you don't know what to do with it. But that's what we help you with. It's really powerful information that can really change your life. It certainly changed mine and changed my approach to different areas in what I do, what I eat, what times I do things, the way I set up my entire day, all of these things are affected. Head on over to lisatamati.com, hit the 'Work with Us' button and you'll see our Peak Epigenetics Program there.  We've also got BOOSTCAMP coming up on the first of September. You'll be listening to this after that so this round will have already started but we will be running this eight-week live webinar program again. We'd love you to come and check it out if you want to upgrade your life in all areas, understand how your biology works, understand everything that can help you achieve high performance, help you with health journeys, a really intimate small group of people who are wanting to upgrade their lives. Make sure you check that out. You can go to peakwellness.co.nz. I'll say that again, peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  Lastly, before we head to the show, don't forget our NMN supplements. nmnbio.nz is where you'll find out all the information about this longevity and anti-aging supplement by Dr Elena Seranova, a molecular biologist, really powerful supplement that has been doing some amazing things for me, and my life, and my family's health, and turning back the clock, basically. It's up-regulating your sirtuin genes, which are your longevity genes, helping with the NAD levels in your cells which are... Every single cell needs NAD and these deplete as we get older, so check out the science behind it, check out the information. There's two podcast episodes that I've done with Dr Elena also on Pushing the Limits, go and check those out if you want to do a deep dive into it. Head on over to nmnbio.nz.  Right. Now, just before we head over to the show, I want you also to maybe follow us on Twitter, on Instagram, on YouTube. Especially our YouTube channel. If you can go and subscribe to our YouTube channel, that really supports the show. All of the shows are actually put up on YouTube. Just, if you search for Lisa Tamati when you go to YouTube, you'll come up with my channel and make sure you subscribe. There's a ton of videos on there. We've got about 600, I think, including all my documentaries as well. Make sure you check that out and we'll head on over to the show with Trevor and Angie.  Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have Trevor and Angie from the Marathon Training Academy. It's super exciting to have you guys. Welcome to the show.  Angie: Thanks so much, Lisa. It's great to be here.  Trevor: Yeah, we're excited about this.  Lisa: Yeah, well, I found you actually through a mutual friend, Dean Karnazes, who I know you've had on the show a couple of times. Dean's been a huge influence in my life as you can possibly imagine. I owe him so much both as a role model and as a friend. He's done lots of things for us. He's a wonderful guy, so shout out to Dean, who I think has just got out of lockdown in Australia. He was intending to run around Australia and that's been curtailed because of the bloody COVID thing. Yeah, shout out to Dean. Thanks for introducing us. I just loved your show so I thought, 'Well, I got to have you guys on.'  You guys are running coaches, and you have three kids. Let's start there. Tell us a little bit about your training academy, and what you do, and your podcast, and all that sort of good stuff. Trevor: Yeah, awesome. Well, thanks for the opportunity to be on the podcast here. I'll introduce myself. This is Trevor. I am America's most okay-est runner.  Angie: I thought you were gonna say laziest.  Trevor: Laziest? No.  Lisa: That's me.  Trevor: Angie is my better half. She's actually the running coach. I'm more like the business guy behind the scenes. We started in 2010. We launched the Marathon Training Academy podcast because we figured, 'Hey, maybe Angie had some knowledge and experience running a couple marathons, maybe people would benefit from learning how to do it.' We launched it and have been pretty much releasing content consistently for the last 11 years. It is not easy, as you know.  Lisa: No it is not. It is so, so impressive to keep going for that long. We've been going five and a half years, and I thought I was ancient and the podcast basically. So amazing. You've got a huge following and a huge... You're telling me some of your download stats and I'm like, 'I'm embarrassed.' You guys are rock stars.  Trevor: I guess we've been fortunate in the beginning when we've launched. I don't think there was a lot of competition for what we were talking about there. At least in the US, on iTunes, there was podcasts where people would carry a recorder out when they ran and they would just dictate breathing really heavy into the mic and stuff. There wasn't a whole lot of prescriptive training advice, which is what we tried to do. When we tell stories and we do race recaps and take people with us as we go racing around the country. But we try to be prescriptive: sharing lots of tips and strategies and principles.  Angie's also a registered nurse as well as being a running coach, so that appealed to people. It just took off in the beginning. We got lucky. I guess it was dumb luck. I don't know, but we started connecting with people right away. Folks would email us from all over the world. We just had a great audience ever since. I just checked the numbers today. Our show's been downloaded 10.8 million times since we started.  Lisa: That is insane. I got a long way to go to catch up to you guys. You guys are rock stars. Angie, you are a legend in the running space. You've already done 50 marathons in 50 states, for one thing. Tell us a bit about your career.  Angie: Well, I definitely don't feel like a legend. I guess that's when you are the person who is doing it all you always kind of feel like, 'Wow.' I kind of feel there's still so much that could be accomplished. There's always that comparison trap we can fit ourselves into. There's always someone who can run faster unless you're Eliud Kipchoge. There's always somebody who's done more crazy challenges. I think that's a dangerous field to start comparing yourself to other people, but I will say that I started running off and on when I was a teenager. I didn't have a great motivation. It was more about trying to lose weight. When I didn't see instant results, then I would kind of give it up and be like, 'Oh, this isn't working.'  But I do feel I really finally became a runner in my late 20s. We'd moved across the country. It was a move that I really didn't want to make. It was for work, and I had two little kids at home. I just felt I was stuck, and I needed a new challenge. Kind of on a whim, I signed up for a 5k race and they say the 5k is the gateway drug to long-distance running. In my case, it was. It was a completely miserable race. It was hot and humid and I'm not a good hot weather runner, but I felt there was a spark inside me. This is something that really fired me up. It wasn't about beating other people. In fact, I had a very, very average time but I just kind of felt like, 'Wow, I bet you I can get better at this.'  I'd never considered myself an athlete before. I never played any sports, so running was something, it was just kind of me against me. I decided I need a bigger challenge, so I signed up for my first marathon. At the time, I didn't have any friends who are runners. They probably would have advised me against it, actually. I don't know anyone who had ever done a marathon before. In fact, at the time, we were so poor that I could either afford the race registration or a new pair of shoes. My mom actually paid for my race registration, so I consider her my first official sponsor.  I'm training for this marathon on my own. Long story short, I do everything wrong. I just run. I don't do any kind of recovery or cross-training or strength training. I'm getting injured, dealing with back pain, and IT band pain, and all the things, but I was stubborn enough that I kept going and was able to finish the marathon. Although it felt completely gruelling at times, just when I crossed the finish line, it really... I was like, 'Wow, I know I'm going to do this again.' That kind of just started my journey. I actually, after that first marathon, had to take three months off of running because my IT band was so bad. Had knee pain. The whole nine yards.  That's when I started doing yoga and kind of discovered like, 'Wow, I can really start to learn more about my body, not ignore these signals that it's sending me.' There are some areas that need to be strengthened and I think that kind of sowed the seeds for what became Marathon Training Academy. Because I wanted to help people have a better experience than I did the first time: have the knowledge, have the information to not get injured and not have to do things the hard way.  I went on to run my second marathon training much smarter and was able to break four hours for the first time, which was a huge goal of mine. I think that's kind of when Trevor mentioned wanting to start a podcast about marathon training. I was like, 'I don't feel like I know enough. Who's going to listen to us? We're just sitting in our living room recording this thing.' I had very low aspirations for where it was going to go, but he had the vision. We stuck with it and just have had a very wonderful, gracious audience. We've just been able to meet so many amazing people throughout the years. I think that's been the most rewarding part of it.  Lisa: That's amazing. Trevor, your wife's bit of a superstar, from what it sounds, but she's very humble.  Trevor: She's amazing. She puts me to shame. She does everything that you're supposed to do, that your coach tells you, that you see on your training plan, doesn't miss a day, doesn't miss a workout. I do 25% of my training plan. Lisa: That's brilliant though. But I love the fact that you... Like me, when I started running, I had no idea what the hell I was doing. I just put one foot in front of the other. I was hopeless, and I was slow. I'm still slow 25 years later. Genetically speaking, not the most gifted person in the world but very, very stubborn. That's all you need with running. I love that you are all about the everyday runner. We have a running coaching arm of our company as well,  and we are very much into that holistic approach to running too, with the strengths, and the immobility, and the mindset, and the nutrition, and all of that sort of stuff.  I had no idea about that back in the day and I just bumbled along, running long because that's what you did, isn't it? If you're going to run long, you run long. What the hell is strength training? What do I need that for? I think we know we've both bumbled into the space and this is the key thing, I think, from your story. That when you just keep going, and keep going, and keep going, you suddenly find yourself looking back on, 'Holy heck, I've done a lot. I've done some pretty amazing things.'  It's just like running is putting one step in front of the other and then being open to learning, getting good coaching so that you... because I like what you said, Angie, about making mistakes and then not wanting other people to make them. That is just the motivation for what we do too because I reinvented the entire wheel, and you don't need to. Do you find a lot of runners come and they don't think they need a coach for starters? Most people only come to you when they're injured. Is that happens to you guys as well?  Angie: Yeah, I think often, there is part of human nature, and I think certain personality types who are more driven to like, 'I'm going to do this myself and I'm stubborn. I'm going to see this through.' Yeah, maybe they've tried a few times to hit a specific time goal that they have, and they realise, 'Wow, it's not going in the direction that I thought it should be going or the injury issues.'  I think people's knowledge and information, it's better now. There's so much more out there that a lot of people who are probably smarter than I was are like, 'Hey, I can probably cut out the injury part, and I can get good advice and good help in the beginning and make this so much a better journey.' I think also for me, I went alone for the first few years. Just being part of the community makes it so much more special, and I think the running community is just amazing. You meet the best people and have conversations with people like you. I think doing things in community makes it so much richer.  Lisa: Oh, man. I could learn so much from you guys. I think you've got a really good approach to it. Trevor, looking back into podcast space, because you say you're the businessman behind the amazing lady, got any tips for a podcaster? Because obviously you guys are doing something right. You started off in this space like... You've grown this massively. I know what goes into it. When you come to it a bit later, it's been a bit harder, for sure. What have you learned on that journey from a community-building point of view? Because I feel we've still got work to do in that space, and I'm always keen to learn from people who are so successful.  Trevor: Well, one thing, when Angie was talking and she was telling the story of when I pitched the podcast idea to her, one thing she didn't tell you was her first response was, because this was 2010, actually '09 when I pitched the idea. Her first response was, 'What's a podcast?'  Angie: Totally ignorant.  Lisa: Yeah, we still get people not knowing what the hell a podcast is.  Trevor: Yeah, so I think getting in early, obviously, was a big help to us. Kind of to be on the front end of a trend. We actually started in what was called the second wave of podcasting. Podcasting got going in earnest around '06, so they say that was the first wave. And then around 2010 was the second wave. There's a lot more shows starting and now, we might be in the fourth wave of podcasting now where almost every major company has a podcast, every news agency and every late-night TV show host.  It's definitely a more crowded space. But on the other hand, there are still people, like you said, who'd never heard of a podcast. More and more people are coming to the medium, downloading shows. Podcasts is becoming more mainstream. I know here, at least in the US, it's not unusual to hear people on TV talking about podcasts, just in anywhere you look, you can see subscribe to my podcast. It's cool to see the cultural awareness rise since we've started.  But I think in terms of tips on growing the show and community, one thing that helped us in the beginning, and still helps us, is hearing from listeners, featuring their stories. At the top of our show, every episode, we do shout outs where kind of like a virtual high five. People are, like all of us, people like to hear their name in a podcast. It just makes them feel... Yeah, lights them up. It puts a smile on their face, and we try to do that a lot where we engage the audience that way. Then, the off-podcast stuff too is also important like our social media stuff and all that. Yeah, building community. Angie: We also kind of try to keep in top of mind like, 'What's in it for the listener?' Because at the end of the day, people only have so much brain space and time. They're going to keep listening to shows that they feel you're giving them good value and that they connect to you in some way. I think just keeping that listener focus and stuff. No one wants to hear about a dissertation of what we've been doing for the last week in-depth. They want to get to know us a little bit, but they also want to know that we care about their needs and everything and what's top of mind. I think that's been helpful as well.  Trevor: Yeah, I edit our show judiciously. Oh, yeah. I spend way too much time. I'm just a perfectionist with it. I haven't been able to outsource that yet, so I edit our show and I'm like, I don't know what the word is, I'm just a stickler when it comes to audio quality. Also like Angie said, I know people's time is important, so if we go down a certain path in the conversation that I think is not pertinent enough, I'll just cut it. I'll take that one-hour episode then maybe sometimes cut it down to 40 minutes.  Angie: He has to edit out all my ‘likes' and ‘you knows', all my verbal clutter. It takes about half of the content away. Lisa: It's so much work. It's just so much work but I love that you do that, and you're a perfectionist. I'm technically completely disabled. I have a team of people behind me doing a lot of stuff, but we can still improve and get better. I love the meandering type of conversations that we have. Let's go and talk a little bit about... For start, Angie, I do have to ask you about your 50 marathons in 50 states, like our friend Dean. How did that come about and when did this become a challenge?  Angie: Well, sometimes things just kind of sneak up on you. I think it was my fourth marathon and it was before the race. I was sitting around talking to a couple ladies and they had these shirts on that said: 'Marathon Maniacs.' I was like, 'What do those shirts mean? What's a marathon maniac?' They're like, 'Oh, it's a club where you have to run a certain number of marathons to be able to get in.' I was like, 'Oh, how many?' They said, 'Well, you have to do two in two weeks or three in ninety days.' I was like, 'What?' That's crazy. That's a maniac.' I was like, 'I could never do that.' I said that I could never do that, and they're like, 'Oh, you could if you really wanted to.'  That just kind of stuck with me. I was like, a lot of times we make excuses why we can't do something, and sometimes, it seems very valid at the moment. But it's all a matter of priorities. That stuck with me. I'm like, 'Could I do that?' Later that fall, I did end up doing three marathons in that 90-day space, and I became a marathon maniac. When you surround yourself with people who are doing all these big challenges... I would joke that I was like a baby maniac because there was people who had done three, four, five hundred marathons in the club that you would see at these races.  Then, of course, I heard about the 50 state club. People who run a marathon in each of the 50 states. I thought, 'Wow, that would be cool. I already have a few states under my belt. Why not?' It doesn't have to be anything like Dean Karnazes doing it in 50 days. No one cares how long it takes and everything. Both Trevor and I love to travel. It seemed like a really great way to be able to explore our very diverse country and see all these amazing places, get to run. It just kind of started that way, and it took me 12 years to finish all 50 states. But it's about the journey and not the destination.  Lisa: Absolutely and that is a really... It rolls off the tongue really beautifully. Yeah. I've done a marathon in every state, 50 states.  Trevor: Here's what's cool, Lisa. I don't know if Angie is going to tell you this but she actually ran her last marathon fastest. That was her fastest marathon. That's what's so cool about our sport: that even though you get older, you can still improve in so many ways. Her very 50th state was in Hawaii. She ran 319, qualified for Boston by 20 minutes and that was at age 41. She was 10 years older but ran an hour faster than when she started.  Lisa: I love it. Go, the oldie. I'm way older than you, so I can say that. I totally agree. Endurance is one of those things. I read a statistic once said a 19-year-old and a 64-year-old are on the same level of endurance or something. You peak around 48 as far as endurance goes and I'm like, 'Yeah, amen to that.' I have similar stories. I did my best performances in my 42, 43, around that age were my peak performances. I'm way after that now, so things have slid off a little bit. Of course, it's what's going on in your life. I've had a few other dramas in my life. There's reasons for things slipping off, but I love that. 319 is an incredible time. That's just amazing. Angie: I still can't believe I did that. Was that me? I don't know. It was just one of those days where everything comes together, and you can never predict that.  Trevor: In Hawaii to boot.  Lisa: Yeah, isn't it really hot in Hawaii? Isn't that really difficult to do?  Angie: It was January so it was cooler, but it was hot compared to what I was used to. Lisa: Amazing. Trevor, how many did you do of those states? You did a few of them?  Trevor: I have. I think I'm up to 17 marathons. I'm actually doing my 18th in about 10 days from now.  Angie: But he's done a lot of half marathons. A lot of the time where I'd be doing a marathon, he would do the half marathon so he's probably run in most of those states as well.  Lisa: I study genetics, right? We have a epigenetics and functional genomics arm to our business. Everybody is genetically different. When people listen to you and go, 'My god. She's amazing. She's run 50 marathons in 50 states.' I want people to not take away from that that they should be doing back-to-back marathons because even though yeah, that's really cool to have these challenges, we're not all genetically set up for that. We need to respect that sometimes. It's been fascinating, this journey of learning about genetics.  When I did my genetics, it came back... Actually, I'm really not suited to the super long-distance running. I was like, 'What? Is that why I've got all these health problems?' Actually, my body is more set up... That doesn't mean I can't ever do an ultramarathon again, but it does mean if that if I want to have longevity and health for a long time which I do now, because I'm 50 so I want to make sure that I stay on top of things, then I shouldn't be doing back to back ultras.  That my body is much more suited to doing shorter and high-intensity sort of workouts and lots of yoga and Pilates and things as well.  I just want people to take away from there, everybody is different. For some people like my husband, he can run super super long, and it's genetically good for him to do that. For me, not so much. One of the other things that I've found within our running coaching, and we get a lot of ladies, we're probably about 70% ladies in our run coaching community. A lot of them are in their 30s, 40s, 50s. It's not the best weight loss thing, is it?  Angie: I could gain weight while running marathons and even watching what I'm eating so yeah, it is definitely. It's tricky.  Lisa: Yeah, it's not. For people to understand, if you're wanting to do a weight loss program, that would be a completely different program that I'd set you than if you're wanting to do marathons for the challenge of doing a marathon. Because there is this misconception that yeah, 'I run a marathon and I get really thin and slim.' No. I got fatter doing marathons. When I ran through New Zealand, I put on weight, and I was running 70-odd kilometres a day. Then, I put on my... I'm like, 'The hell is this about?' Everybody is different. Respect your genes. Respect your body. And as Angie said at the beginning of this podcast, compare yourself only to yourself. Unless you're in the Olympics, then, you probably compare yourself to the others. But for most of us, it is about you versus you. I think that's the beautiful thing about this sport. That we can all do this together but it's actually each of our journeys.  Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand, or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. We are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us: everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us.  Lisa: Trevor, what was your favourite race that you've done?  Trevor: Oh, thanks for asking. There's this marathon I love to talk about. You've probably heard of it. It's the Jungfrau Marathon in Switzerland. That's such a beautiful place. It's almost unreal. Otherworldly how beautiful it is.  Angie: Probably like New Zealand actually. Really beautiful.  Trevor: I've heard it's nice there too. Well, I haven't been in New Zealand yet, unfortunately. As of right now, Switzerland is my favourite place that I've run. They say that when, for those Lord of the Rings nerds who might be listening, when Tolkien, after World War I, was marching through the Lauterbrunnen Valley in Lauterbrunnen, Switzerland. He sees this amazing place and that was the inspiration for Rivendale in the book, in the movies.  Lisa: They did it there first. Trevor: Yep, exactly. Lisa: Then, we came to New Zealand to film it ‘cause it was even better.  Trevor: What's cool about that marathon is it's just pretty much all up this mountain until you get to this 7,000 feet elevation. It's pretty much a lot of power hiking. Yeah, exactly. It's pretty much a thousand... It's pretty much a lot of power hiking after the second half, which is fine because I felt like I was still making progress. But people were throwing up on the side of the trail, and I was fine because I was just I'm just power hiking. I was kind of used to it. That's been my favourite marathon thus far. Plus I had the Alps horns, Swiss Alps horns and stuff. Very transcendent.  Lisa: It was so special. I lived in Austria for 13 years and would go over to Switzerland regularly. Austria and Switzerland are very similar. And just absolutely beautiful. I really miss the beauty of the place, and the culture, and the traditions, and the cool boating. All of those sorts of things. Yeah, it's pretty special. What about you Angie? What's your favourite race?  Angie: I don't know. It's hard to hard to pick one. I would say my favourite international race was the Loch Ness marathon in Scotland. Just going around Loch Ness the lake and just incredibly beautiful. Just the chance to be able to be there and be in the country and see so many amazing things. But I don't know. There's a lot of races that I love here in the US as well. Boston is a very iconic special race. The Marine Corps marathon is really moving. Yeah, Washington, DC. Then, my home state is Montana. I've gotten to do a couple marathons there. Of course, I'm a little biased, but I love the mountains there. Lisa: Absolutely. For both of you, what was your toughest race? Have you ever not made the finish line?  Trevor: Thankfully, no.  Angie: Actually that one race that they closed the finish line. Trevor: Oh, yeah. I remember the marathon in... That was an Austria fact in 2019. They had to shut the course down because of the weather. I think that for me, the toughest race was 50k in Montana. I was probably undertrained because I'm so lazy, and I ended up taking lots of breaks. Angie: Like laying on the ground. Trevor: But I finished before the cut off and I wasn't dead last. Lisa: You take whatever you can get when you go to the bottom of the barrel. That's not much... If you get across the finish line... Trevor: Exactly. It was on the Continental Divide Trail so there's a lot of elevation. How about you, Angie? Angie: There have been a lot of marathons where I finished feeling, or even ultras, that was dragging a body part behind me but I was too stubborn to quit kind of thing. But I think, probably the most difficult one was the Leadville Trail Marathon in Leadville, Colorado because it starts at 10,000 feet and it just goes up from there. There was a section, a one-mile section to get up to Hope Pass, which was the highest point, and it took me 30 minutes to go a mile. I would just walk a few feet, just breathe, gasp for air, pretend like you're taking a picture because you're embarrassed at your pace. That was very challenging because I was not... We were living in sea level basically. To go and do that not being acclimated, it was challenging. Then, to look to the side of the trail and like, 'If I make a misstep, I'm going to fall off this mountain and die.' One of those where I finished and I was just like, 'So thankful to be alive.'  Lisa: Sounds pretty damn scary. What do you think are the biggest learnings from all of these races in this journey that you've been on for however long you've been running for? What what are some of the biggest takeaways? Do you think this crosses over into daily life, and to your businesses, and to the work you do, and stuff like that, and challenges in your home life, and stuff?  Angie: Yeah, I would say the marathon and any long-distance running is a great metaphor for life because you have to look at the long picture. Like you were saying earlier, we're always changing and evolving as people, and we have to keep that in mind. I've kind of through the years, through some trial and error, my goal is to be a strong healthy runner for life. Being healthy through that lifespan is way more important than any one race for me. I think that it's very important like we see people who are taking on these challenges.  It is important to have goals and everything but I think it's also important to just look at your overall health. Is your sleep, is your nutrition, is your overall strength, are your relationships good? How is your mental, and your emotional, your spiritual life? All those things go hand in hand. I think that at some point, running accomplishments are only going to be so satisfying if those other things aren't in place. That's been a big thing for me. I tend to be really goal-oriented person. Always looking to the future like, 'When this happens, I'm going to be happy and be satisfied.'  I finally came to the realisation that if I can't be happy right now, in the imperfect, the way life is if I can't be happy now, that I'm not going to be happy in the future. If I accomplish these goals, there's always going to be something else to chase. That's been something that I've been thinking about lately of just how to really appreciate the present. I think that really goes into running or whatever people's goals are because there's going to be a lot of the present that is challenging and that we don't want to go through. I think it's important to do hard things, take on hard challenges. But there's going to be a lot of hard things that find us that we don't want to have to deal with, that we're going to be forced to wrestle with. I think that having that long-term goal and having done hard things in the past prepares you for those challenges that you never wanted to take on in the first place.  Lisa: Yeah, when you've been struggling, going back to the genetics, you probably got a dopamine thing where you have to be chasing dopamine all the time. I know I've got that gene called the DRD2 gene where I don't have a heck of a lot of receptors for dopamine, so I'm always chasing a mission. Just coming to understand that about yourself, it's like, 'Aha. That's why I tend to...' Like my brother said to me once, 'Why are you always on a mission? Why can't you just sit on a beach and enjoy the day?' ‘It's like asking a table not to be flat. That's who I am. I get up and I'm missioning all day, every day.' And I'm like you, Angie. I'm trying to change the talk in my head to being present.  Sometimes, when you are going through challenges and life keeps chucking them at us at the moment, you don't want to be in the now. One of the big things that I really miss because I'm not doing ultras anymore, is having that single focus, one goal. Life was purely about being a selfish athlete who's just got on a mission. I don't have the luxury of that now with things in life. I miss it. I miss it terribly. That simplicity of life where you've got just one big huge goal and you're doing your work and stuff. But this is the one thing, and then when you're actually in the race, that's what I found beautiful about racing, you're not thinking about the mortgage and the what's going on in the family or anything else because you're just like, [imitates heavy breathing], ‘Got to get up this hill.'  Angie: To the next aid station.  Lisa: Right in the moment. For so much of my life, I know that I'm in the future or the past and that's really learning to be in the now without having that single singular focus. Really wise words, Angie, I think. Trevor, what would you say that running has bought to your mental resilience and toughness and ability to cope with things?  Trevor: Well, I know running marathons makes a lot of other stuff seem easier. Yeah. I remember how tough my first half marathon was, and I thought I was going to die because I was pretty much a non-runner previous to meeting Angie. After I did my first full marathon, then a half seemed a walk in the park. It seemed so easy even though they're still challenging, especially if you're trying to race a half marathon. We've had Joe de Sena on our podcast a couple of times. He's the founder of the Spartan Race. Lisa: Yeah, I've been on his show. Awesome.  Trevor: Oh, Cool. Yeah. He's a scary guy. I always remember something he talks about in his book, Spartan Up and that's obstacle immunity. When you make yourself do hard things, you become immune to obstacles in life. You can just push through them, hurdle over them. But it's when you're playing it safe, when you're afraid to get out of your comfort zone, sign up for that challenge, that marathon, or whatever your challenges is, it's this when you get more timid and hard things seem harder than they really are. It's all in our heads.  Lisa: Ah, that's gold. Obstacle immunity. That's going on my Instagram today. Thanks, Joe. Because it is. When somebody or when someone tells you can't do something, that's just for me like, 'Oh, we'll see. I don't agree with you. We'll find out.' That's really served me well. The more that you realise when people tell you can't do something, and then you go and do it, that's just other people's limiting beliefs. This is an all areas, certainly in the medical space and with story with my mum that my listeners know about. If I'd listened to everybody telling me I can't do something, we would never be where we are now. I think you have this mentality. You have, 'Oh, obstacle? How do I get around that? What else can I do?' Rather than, 'Oh, obstacle. I have to stop and sit down and cry and that's it.' I think that mentality is brilliant. Obstacle immunity. Hear, hear. I love it. Angie: It doesn't mean that you don't feel those hard feelings as you get over the obstacle. I think it's important to acknowledge that it's hard and take time to feel that frustration or that sadness or that disappointment. But I think also acknowledging those emotions helps you get over the obstacle too because you're not fighting your emotions then. You're using those and using that to fuel your fire or to just do what needs to be done. Lisa: What I think is beautiful too is when you look back and you've overcome challenges that makes you stronger for the next challenge. You lift your horizon up every time. You get to the end of your first half marathon. For five minutes, you go, 'I never ever want to do that again because that hurts so much.' Then the next day, you're on the internet, 'What is the next one? Where's the next challenge?' You can see runners do this over and over again. I just laugh now when they say 'I'm never doing that again.' Because it's usually until the pain wears off and they're off on the next mission.  It is like lifting your horizon every time. It's not something that stays out there permanently either, by the way. You build yourself up to marathon, ultramarathon, whatever your goal is. Then if you don't do it for a while, I can tell you as someone who's not doing ultras now, your world starts to shrink back in as to what you are capable of doing. For me, I'm thinking, 'Can I do a half marathon?' That's what I would like at the moment with a load that I've got on, which is a lot, 'Can I get back to that stage?' My focus has been on CrossFit and other things.  My body's changed considerably, for the better I'd say, but when it comes to going back long, whoa. I've got to push that horizon back out again. It doesn't stay permanent. In other words, it's a constant work battle really to keep it. When you're getting older, you've also got that aspect coming into it too, trying to keep things at bay. I had Dean on the podcast last week and we were talking about that because we're both somewhat north of 40. It's like, 'Yeah, things aren't quite working like they used to do. I'm like, 'Yeah, I'm working on that. I've got all these things for you, Dean.' 'Some great longevity stuff. Come try this and do that.'  That's sort of an interesting path to go down to because you start to think, 'Well, I can keep my fitness to the best that I can by keeping up with the current research, and the knowledge, and stuff, and doing the best things, and prioritising things like sleep.' You can have a massive impact on your body, and it's not just about the training I think is what I'm... Yeah. Guys, you've also got three kids. Three kids, busy life, running marathons. Most people can't, I can't do that. How do you find the time?  Angie: Well, we are very fortunate that now we are self-employed. We kind of can design our own schedules, and I think that's a big advantage to the training because some days, it happens at a certain time. Some days, it has to be pushed around a bit because of appointments, kids, things that we've got going on and everything. We've also tried to include our kids in the journey. Especially when they were young, they would travel with us a lot and they got to go to so many of the states that we travelled to. We tried to expand their horizons as well.  Now that they're older and everything, sometimes, he travels, he's going to Italy next week. I'll stay home with the kids, and then I'll go somewhere in September. It's just about making it work and making sure the family is supportive. It's not like your family has to be your biggest fans because there's only a certain level that your family is going to get it. Like our kids could pretty much care less that we do marathons. They're like, 'So what?'  Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. I hear you.  Angie: 'What are you making for dinner, Mom? I don't care that you just ran a race.' You know that kind of thing? Lisa: They're very good at bringing you back down to earth, family. I've got brothers and yeah. 'You ran across the Sahara? Oh, yeah. Whatever.' 'Oh, you wrote a book? Oh, that's cool. I'll never read it.'  Angie: 'What's it about?' 'Okay.'  Trevor: That's cruel.  Lisa: But that's family, that keeps you keeps you grounded. 'Oh, would've been nice to get a pat on the back.' They're not like that at all. Very supportive actually, but when we were younger, that was definitely the case. Probably vice versa because my brother does surfing and I'm always like, 'Oh, yeah, are you just riding 20-foot waves? That's cool.' Now, I'm sort of like, 'Oh, Wow. That's pretty awesome. Go guys.'  You guys have been epic today. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. I thank your podcast. And tell everybody where they can find you: Where's the best home to find you on the internet and Instagram and all those sort of good places and how to connect? Trevor: No problem. Yeah, thank you so much for the opportunity to be on the podcast, and if anybody wants to find this, you can just go to marathontrainingacademy.com. If you are looking for our podcast, if you just type in marathon training, we usually just come up as the first result, but it's called The Marathon Training Academy podcast. We're on Instagram, @MarathonAcademy.  Lisa: Wonderful. I will put all those in the show notes. Thank you very much guys for your time today. It's been absolutely wonderful chatting with you.  Angie: Thank you so much. Trevor: Likewise. Thank you.  That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends, and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com   

When was the last time you got up and ran? Simply jogging around the neighbourhood during the weekends to keep fit may be daunting for some. Now, imagine the sheer amount of dedication, endurance, and resilience ultramarathoning requires. This type of long-distance running is an activity that tests the limits of human endurance. You might think running a thousand miles is impossible, but today's guest continues to prove others wrong. He's on a mission to exceed his limits and inspire others to do the same. Dean Karnazes joins us in this episode to get up close and personal about his experiences in ultramarathoning. He candidly shares the highs and lows, the triumphs and defeats. We also find out the importance of failure and finding magic in misery.  If you're interested in discovering how you can build your character, embrace pain and failure, and get inspired to push your limits, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover how to cope with the ups and downs of ultramarathoning. Learn about the importance of pain and failure. Get inspired by Dean's valuable takeaways from his career.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching. You can also join our free live webinar on runners' warm-up to learn how a structured and specific warm-up can make a massive difference in how you run.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books, Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!  Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:  #8: Dean Karnazes - The Road to Sparta #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova Connect with Dean: Website Books by Dean Karnazes:  Ultramarathon Man: Confessions of an All-Night Runner A Runner's High: My Life in Motion Dean's other books   Episode Highlights [05:21] Dean's Lockdown Experience in Australia Dean was supposed to go on a 1000-mile run across New South Wales.  After boarding a jet to Australia, he found that the pandemic situation was getting worse.  And so, Dean and Pat Farmer will be doing their run in a military base instead. Although he's quarantined inside a hotel room, Dean always stays moving and does bodyweight exercises to remain active. It was challenging to go from California, where 80% have been vaccinated, to Australia, which is still in lockdown. [11:18] Chronological and Biological Age Chronologically, Dean is closer to 60 than 50 years old. There are various ways to test your biological age, like C-reactive proteins and inflammation. Tune in to the full episode to learn more about what else goes into calculating your biological age. [14:17] Dean's Greek Heritage Dean's mother is from Ikaria, a Blue Zones with the highest concentration of centenarians worldwide. People in Ikaria live long, healthy lives. They don't pay attention to time and live in a strong community. Therefore, they are not prone to stress. Dean doesn't have any back, muscle, or joint pain. [18:50] Know What Your Body is Built For People are built to run at different speeds and distances. Various factors affect what you're optimised to do.  What's important is knowing the things that are optimal for your health. Dean has run over 300 traditional marathons in his career. He has also seen people well past their 70s who are still physically able and active. [22:04] What is A Runner's High About? A Runner's High is about the changes that he, the world, and ultramarathoning has undergone. Ultramarathoning impacts the people closest to you. Dean wanted to write a true and honest story about his reflections over the past three decades.  [24:00] Running the Western States Endurance Run This 100-mile trail race starts in Sierra Nevada, California. Dean first did this race in 1994. To him, this was an unforgettable experience. Going back after 13 times, Dean found that watching his dad and son crew for him and seeing how things changed over time was transformative for him. Dean recounts his experiences in detail in A Runner's High. [25:54] The Surprises of Parenting Kids grow faster than parents can adjust to them growing up.  Dean describes his son Nick as dichotomous, recounting how he would complain about his roommates being slobs while his own room is a mess. Nick volunteered to crew for him. Dean thought Nick would be irresponsible. Nick surprised Dean; he was much more responsible than Dean's dad. It's a parent's burden to accept that their child is now a self-sufficient, capable adult. [29:58] Did Dean's Career and Fame Affect His Family? Ultramarathoning has always been a family affair for Dean.  He would take his family to where his marathons are. Dean's kids had the opportunity to travel to different places from a young age. Fans that come up to him asking for autographs and selfies are decent people. [34:44] Dealing with Pain and Failure When you're in pain, it's difficult to interact with others. Dean admits that it can be tough when his fans come up to chat with him during this time. He commits to setting aside his ego and always gives 100% in everything he does, including ultramarathoning and interacting with fans. [40:44] The Value of Failing Success builds character, but failure more profoundly so. The emotional range that comes with failure makes one a better human. Don't shy away from hitting rock bottom because you'll be missing out on a profound character-building opportunity. In the end, it's a matter of perspective. Most people will applaud the distance that you run, whether you come in first or not. [44:49] Ultramarathoning is Achieving the Impossible Dean initially thought there was trickery involved in ultramarathoning. The moments that stuck to Dean in his career weren't victories or crossing finish lines.  What stuck to him were the moments when he was on the verge of giving up but persisted through difficulty. [48:04] The Importance of Character Ultramarathoning teaches you to be resilient through the tough times. Running doesn't hurt when you're doing it right. Some people try to avoid difficult things and pain, while others embrace them. We've built our world around comfort, but somehow we're still miserable. However, the more struggle you experience, the more strength you build. [53:21] Dean's Biggest Takeaways From Ultramarathoning To Dean, it's the little moments that are the most priceless. Ultramarathoning is a journey, a passion, and a commitment. Staying true to yourself is valuable, simple, and magical. [56:11] Forming Connections Through Books Writing is laborious, but the motivation it brings to people makes it worthwhile. Dean dictates the things he wants to write on his phone while running.  Running clears Dean's thoughts. To him, motion stirs emotion. A singularity of purpose is achieved when focusing on a specific goal or mission.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘Some people are built to run far and slow, and other people are built to run quick and short.' ‘In school, you get the lesson and you take the test. In parenting, you take the test, and then you get the lesson.' ‘What can you do other than just do your best? You're human. All of us can only just do our best.' ‘When I stand on the starting line, I'm going to give it my all. I'm not going to leave anything on this course. I'm just going to be the best that Dean can be. I'm going to try my hardest and the only way I'm going to fail is if I don't try my hardest and don't give it my all.' ‘I think bold failures build character. I have to be honest. Success builds character, but so does failure and in a more profound way.' ‘We've built our world around comfort: having every comfort available and removing as much discomfort and pain as we can. And I think, in a way, we're so comfortable, we're miserable.' ‘I'm just a runner, but that's who I am and I'm staying true to that. I'm going to do that to the grave. And I think in that, there's a simplicity and I think there's some magic in that.'   About Dean Dean Karnazes is a renowned ultramarathon runner. Among his many accomplishments, he has run 50 marathons in 50 days on 50 consecutive days, gone across the Sahara Desert in 120-degree temperatures, and ran 350 miles without sleep. He has also raced and competed in all seven continents twice. Dean has carried the Olympic Torch twice. He appeared on the covers of Runner's World, Outside, and Wired, and has been featured in TIME, People, GQ, and Forbes. He was named one of the "Top 100 Most Influential People in the World". Men's Fitness has also labelled him as one of the fittest men in the world. To top it off, Dean is also a New York Times bestselling author and a much sought-after speaker and panellist in running and athletic events worldwide.  If you want to learn more about Dean, his incredible adventures and his achievements, you may visit his website.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can find inspiration from Dean's stories on ultramarathoning and the lessons he learned along the way. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You can also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Trasncript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Good day, everyone. Welcome back to Pushing the Limits, your host Lisa Tamati here. Today, I have one of my longtime friends and a guy who has had a massive influence in my life both as a role model and as someone who has facilitated me with a lot of help with my books and so on. He's a worldwide legend. He is Dean Karnazes. He is the author of four books. And he has a new one out called the Runner's High, which I was excited to give me an excuse to chat to my buddy, and see what he's been up to, and to talk everything, ultramarathon running. We talk a whole lot about getting older in ultramarathon running, and the difficulties, and we talk about life in general and longevity, and the beauty of the sport. He's an incredible ambassador for our sport. He's done so much. He's brought so many people into the sport worldwide and he's an incredible human being. He's actually stuck in lockdown in Australia right at the moment as we were recording this and was about to do a race ride around Australia with my other friend, Pat Farmer. Another incredible human being. These guys are just next level crazy, and bloody COVID has ripped everything so they're now down to doing thousand-mile race around a military base in Australia in New South Wales. But in true ultramarathon form, where there's a will, there's a way. And when there's an obstacle, you find a way around it. Improvise, adapt, and overcome as my friend Craig Harper always says. So that's what these guys have been doing. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Dean Karnazes. Without him, I wouldn't have my books. He is a very generous and caring person as well as being an incredible athlete. Before we head over to the show, just want to remind you, we have our BOOSTCAMP live webinar series coming up starting on the first of September 2021. If you're listening to this later on, we will be doing these on an ongoing basis. And actually, we have planned to set up a mastermind that goes the year long. I don't know how long it's gonna take us to get organised but that is our goal. We're all about helping each other upgrade our lives and be the best versions of ourselves that we can be. This one's called BOOSTCAMP. This eight-week-long webinar series that Neil and I are doing. This is a live series where you hang out with us once a week for an hour and get a lot of great information: the latest science, the latest biohacking, the latest longevity, everything about mental toughness, resilience, everything that's going to basically upgrade your life and help you be a better human. The stuff that we've spent years and decades actually studying, learning, and doing. So I hope you get to enjoy this with us. You can head on over to peakwellness.co.nzboostcamp. That's B-O-O-S-T camp. BOOSTCAMP, not boot camp. We won't be making you run around doing anything. We're just going to be having wonderful chats and education. A lot of lectures and a lot of fun to be had along the way. And, I think, what's most important is you'll be networking with like-minded individuals. They say that you are the sum total of the five people that you hang out with most. And make those five people, in this case, it will be a few more, some top-quality people who are all on a mission the same as you are. So if you want to come and join us, that's BOOSTCAMP. We also have our epigenetics program. If you want to know all about your genetics, and how to upgrade your life through your genes, understanding what your genes do, if you're dealing with a difficult health journey, and you don't know where to go to next, this is a very good place to start. This is our flagship program that we've been running for years now. We've taken hundreds and hundreds of people through this program. And it's really an incredible all-encompassing program that looks at your food, your exercise types, what time of the day to do different things, your mood and behaviour, and lots, lots more. So come and check that out at lisatamati.com and hit the ‘Work with Us' button then you'll see our Peak Epigenetics program there if you're interested in doing that. Right. Now, over to the show with Dean Karnazes who's sitting in lockdown in Australia. Well. Hi, everyone and welcome to the show. Today, I have my very good friend and absolute legend of ultramarathoning, Dean Karnazes, with me. Dean, welcome to the show, again. Repeat offender. Dean Karnazes: Oh, it's so nice to be back on with you. Thank you for having me. We always have such lively conversations. I love it. Lisa: We do, right? I just absolutely enjoy your company. Whenever I've had the chance to spend a little bit of time with you, it's been absolute gold whether it's been on the podcast, or interviewing you, or hanging out with you on the Gold Coast like we did last year. That was absolutely awesome. Dean, you've just brought out another book. Another amazing book called Runner's High, and that's why we had to get you back on, because I want to share about all this book. But before we get into the book, you're sitting in lockdown in Australia. Tell me what is going on there. Dean: It's a long story but it started with a run across Australia with Pat Farmer. So from Western Australia to the East Coast, and that was the original idea; it was 5,000 kilometres. And this was six months ago when the world was going in a better direction, and over the past six months, boy, the world has done just the opposite. And we, like you, are a fighter and we kept saying we're going to persevere the same... Well, the run across Australia got mixed to a run across New South Wales, a thousand-mile run across New South Wales. And we kept thinking, 'This is going to happen. This is going to happen.' I boarded the plane, I flew to Australia with 10 people on the huge jet, yeah. And when I get to Australia, I realise how bad the situation is here. And every day, I turn on the news. It's getting worse, it's getting worse as I'm in quarantine, and then finally Pat called me a couple days ago and said, 'We can't do the thousand-mile run now. We could still the thousand-mile run. It's just going to be contained within a military base because we need to stay in our own bubble.' And I thought 'Oh.' Lisa: He has flown away from America to Australia to run around the military base. It sounds a bit like being tactic stuff. Dean: Oh, yeah. And not only the... To sit in quarantine. To your point, I've been in our hotel room for 12 days now, waiting to get out, yeah. Lisa: For someone like you... You're just like me. Obviously, you're even more extreme than me. It must be torture. I just can't comprehend being in a room. This must be awful for you. Dean: Don't remind me, but yeah. Basically, from the moment I get up, I'm staying active. We both know the importance of movement. So from the moment my head leaves the pillow, I'm not sitting down ever. Even right now, I'm pacing back and forth in this room, and I'm doing bodyweight exercises just constantly, at least throughout the day. Lisa: I used to... If I was travelling and I was stuck in a hotel room somewhere in a dangerous city or whatever, I'd put on something running on TV and run along with them. I was doing the Boston Marathon in Budapest in a hotel room one day. Just run along the spot. Doesn't matter. You got to do something to keep active, so I can imagine it being a bit of a mission for you. So my heart goes out to you and hang in there for two more days. And all my love, please, to Pat Farmer. I love the guy. He's just amazing. We got to hang out when we're in the Big Red Run together, which I failed spectacularly, by the way. I had a back injury that walked me out in the middle of that race. But one of the big advantages of that run was actually getting to meet Pat Farmer because he's an absolute legend of the sport. So you two together would be a really powerful combination. I'm really sad that he's not going to go right around Australia because imagine the people that would have come out and enjoyed meeting you two. Dean: Oh, he pulled all the strings. He's very well connected in political circles and the Australian Army is crazy for us. So we had 13 Army personnel and they're setting up a tent city every night, and they're cooking for us. It was amazing but COVID had other plans. Lisa: Oh, bloody COVID. It's wrecking every damn thing. Hey, but it's ultramarathon runner and Pat Farmer who has run from the North Pole to the South Pole, people. Absolute crazy guy. Obstacle? Find a way around it. Obstacle? Find a way around. And that's what you guys are doing, and you have to be flexible. That's a good lesson for this day and age because we're all having to be very, very flexible right now, and adapt to a hell of a lot of change, and being able to cope in different situations. So I bet you guys would just find a way through it and it will be another incredible story at the end of the day. Dean: I think the world needs it. As controversial as the Olympics were, I think it was an amazing thing, and it's so scaled back, right? But still, people are stuck in their house and now, what are they doing? They're watching the Olympics. They're getting energised, and they're thinking about the future so yeah, thank you. It's been a very emotional journey for me to leave a place... Where I live in California, we're over 80% vaccinated. So to leave a place where there was no masks then come here, it's been eye-opening and challenging. Lisa: You should have Pat go to you and run around California. You got it backwards. I have no doubt that you guys will just find a way through, and you'll make it epic, anyway. Say you get given lemons, you make lemonade. Dean: Yeah well, at least we're staying in military barracks, and we're basically running. Every day, we're staying in the same place so logistically, it'll be easier. Lisa: Yeah. Oh my god, you guys just don't stop. I admire you guys so much, and I was saying to you last year, when we're in the Gold Coast, 'I've hit the wall at about 48 but to be honest, I had a pretty hit on, full-on war with my body and....' But you guys just seem to keep going, and going, and going. I had Mum as well so I did have an excuse, guys. But pretty highly, it was a stressful last five years. But you just seem to... Because how old are you now, Dean, if you don't mind sharing? Dean: Yeah. Well, when anyone would ask my age, I would say, 'Are you talking about my chronological age or my biological age?' Lisa: Well, your chronological because biological, you're probably 20 years younger. Because I definitely am. That's my take on it. Dean: Chronologically I'm closer to 60 than 50. Lisa: Exactly. Have you actually ever had your biological age done? Because that's an interesting thing. Dean: Yeah, I had a couple. There's a lot of good ways you can test it, and I've had it done a couple different times. One, I was about I was in my late 30s. And then on another, I was older than my actual chronological age. Lisa: Which one was that? Dean: It was post ultramarathon. So after racing, we spoke about C-reactive protein earlier and inflammation. And that was one of the biomarkers that they used in calculating your biological age. So when I looked at the results, I said, 'Hold it. How did you arrive at that figure?' And they gave me all the markers they looked at, and I said, 'Well, look. This is wildly elevated because just four days ago, I just ran a hundred miles.' Lisa: Exactly. And C-reactive protein, if you've just had a cold, if you've just hit like we were talking about my dad before and sepsis and his C-reactive protein was just through the roof. So that makes sense that they would be out. There's a whole clock, which is the methylation markers, which is a very good one. I've done just one very basic one that came out at 34. I was pretty pleased with that one. At the end of the day, I think if you can keep all your inflammatory markers like your homocysteine and C-reactive protein generally under control, keep your albumin levels high, they are pretty good markers. Albumin is one that is looking at, it's a protein that your liver makes, and that's a very important one. And if you albumin starts to go too low, that's one sign that things aren't going to good. So keep an eye on all those. I love studying all this longevity stuff because I plan to live to 150 at least, and I don't think that that's unrealistic now as long as I don't get run over by a bus or something. With the stuff that's coming online and the technology that's coming, we're going to be able to turn back the clock on some pretty advanced stuff already. Now, my mum's on more than me because obviously, her needs are a bit greater than mine. I can't afford for us to be on all the top stuff. But yeah, I'm very excited. We don't need to age like our grandparents have aged. We're gonna have... And someone like you, Dean, who's lived a good healthy life, apart from pushing the hell out of your body, and I'll talk about that in a sec, but I think you've got the potential to live to 150, especially because you're Greek. You come from stock. Dean: And my mom is from one of the Blue Zones. An island called Ikaria and I've been there and I've met... Ikaria, the island she's from, has the highest concentration of centenarians anywhere on Earth. Lisa: Oh my gosh. So you're going to live to 200 then. Dean: Well, the beautiful thing about these people is that not only are they over 100, they still have a high quality of life. They're still mobile; they're self-sufficient. Mentally and cognitively, they're sharp as a tack. They're active. The one thing that they have that we don't have the luxury of is the complete absence of stress. They don't pay attention to time. Lisa: That's, I think, a crucial point. Stress is a killer in so, so many ways. Dean: Even the fact that we have mortgages, and we have payments, rent, all those sort of things, I think, contribute to obviously, to stress. And fitting in with new society. It's much more of a sense of community in these villages where everyone is part of it. They all take care of each other, so it's a different lifestyle. Lisa: I think, definitely when you're actually living the old way of being out in the sunshine, from the time you get up to the end of the day, you're working outside and on the ground, in the land, hands in the dirt, all of that sort of stuff really... Because I studied lots about circadian rhythms and how our eyes, for example, you see sunshine early in the morning. That resets your circadian rhythms, sets the clock going for the day. Your adenosine starts to build up over the day. You get tired at about 14 to 16 hours later. All of these things that we've... as modern-day humans, we've taken ourselves out of the old way of living and put ourselves into this artificial comfortable environment. But this is upsetting all our ancient DNA, and that's why that's leading to problems. And then, of course, we've got this crazy life with technology, and the stuff we have to do, and work. Just like stress, what it does to the gut, the actual microbiota in the gut, and how much it affects your gut health. And of course, gut health affects everything. Your brain and your gut talk all the time. All these stuff so I think if we can harness the cool stuff of the technology coming, plus go back and start respecting as much as possible our ancient DNA, and then eating our ancestors did as best we can with these depleted soils, and pesticides, and glyphosates, and God knows what's in the environment, but doing the best we can, then we've got a good chance of actually staying around on this planet and still be running ultramarathons or at least marathons when you're a hundred plus. I don't think that that's unrealistic anymore, and that excites me. So I'm always learning on that front. Dean: But I want to be that guy that's running a marathon when you say a hundred. That's my ambition now. Lisa: I'll keep you up on the latest stuff then. What you need to be aware of. Dean: I don't have any... People say, ‘You must have arthritis, or back pain, or knee pain, or joint pain.' I don't have any of those things. I don't know why but I just... I'm so happy. I get up every morning and feel fresh. Lisa: That's absolutely amazing. I think one of the amazing things with you is that... Because I studied genetics, and I looked at my genes. And actually doing really long bouts of exercise with my combination of genetics and my cardiovascular system, especially I've got a very weak glycocalyx, which is the lining of your endothelial cells. Bear with me people. This means that if I do a lot of oxidative damage, which you do, of course, when you're running, that's pretty damaging to my lining of my blood vessel. So I've got to be a little more careful and take a lot of antioxidant support. But having that inflammation means I can now take steps to mitigate that so that I can still do what I love to do. And that's really key. It's hitting stuff off at the pass and there's so much we can do now and that's really, really exciting. But I've gone completely off topic because we should be talking about your book. Dean: No, I think it's very relevant because I think that some people are built to run far and slow and other people are built to run quick and short. Lisa: Yeah. I do and I agree and it's not just about your fast-twitch fibres. It is also about your methylation and your detox pathways, your hormonal pathways, your cardiovascular genes. All of these things do play a role, and that's why there's no one size fits all. And that's why we don't all have to be Dean Karnazes or Pat Farmer. You know what I mean? Not everybody is built for that or should be doing that, and that's okay as well. And working out what is optimal for your health is the key thing. Having role models like you guys is just mind-blowing because it does lift your perception of what the human body is capable of. That leads the way for others, and to follow, and to test out their personal limits. I think that's important too. Dean: Well, I've run over 300 traditional marathons. And you go to the Boston Marathon, you go to these big marquee marathons, the New York City Marathon, and you see people in their 70s and 80s that, compared to their peers, are off the charts. You say, 'Well, that running is gonna be bad for you.' I don't subscribe to that. Lisa: I've done what, 70-odd thousand K's. Not as much as you have. And I don't have any knee pain. I don't have any back pain because I keep my core strong and that's despite having accidents with my back and having no discs. Because I keep myself fit and healthy. I have had some issues with hormones and kidney function because when we... You would have been rhabdomyolysis, no doubt a few times. Dean: Minor, minor, but I have. Yeah. Every ultra runner has, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, so things that. You've got to just keep an eye on and make sure you don't... You look after your kidneys otherwise and do things to mitigate the damage. Because yeah there are certain things that damage. But life damages you. Like living, breathing is damaging. It's causing oxidative stress. So you've got to weigh up the pros and cons, but having an active physical life outdoors, and having adventures, and being curious and excited, and being involved in the world, that's got to be beneficial for you. So when do you actually start with this big adventure with Pat? Dean: It's on the 14th of August, so in about a week. Yep. They finish on the 24th, yeah. Lisa: Oh, I'd like to get you both back on at the end of it to give me a rundown, have a go. That will be cool. Dean, let's just pivot now and let's talk a little bit about your book. Because you brought out some incredible books over the years. You're world-famous. You're a New York Times bestselling author. You've been named by the Times magazine as one of the most hundred influential people of the world. That's just insane. And now, you're brought out Runner's High. What's different about this story? Dean: Well, my first book was Ultramarathon Man, and that was kind of a coming-of-age book. It was about me learning about this crazy universe of ultramarathon and people doing things that I thought was impossible. And Runner's High is five books later and three decades later. How am I still doing it? And how have I changed? How has the sport of ultramarathoning changed? How has the world changed? And that was the book. And it was also a very personal book and that... You're an ultramarathoner, and you know ultramarathon is an island. If you start running these long distances it impacts everyone in your life including your family. Very much for your family. The book, it is not really about running. It's funny. People read it and they say, 'Wow. It's amazing but it's storytelling.' And you and I are both good storytellers, and that was what I just set out to write a book that was true and honest, and it was enjoyable for the reader. And yeah, it's doing really well in New Zealand, actually. Lisa: It must be doing well around the world. And this one is very... It's really real, and genuine, and raw. No holds barred. No barred... What do you call it? No... How do you say that? It's very much a real and it's a love letter to, basically, like you say, to running. And you're actually revisiting the Western States, a race that you've done how many times? 13 times or something? But coming back in your 50s, late 50s to do this again in 2018. It was a bit of a tough road, shall we say. Can you tell us a little bit about that part of the journey and why Western States are so special to you? Dean: Yeah. The Western States 100 mile endurance run is in the Sierra Nevada, California. And it was the first 100-mile trail race, and I first did it back in 1994. So your first is always your best. It's kind of this amazing experience that you have, and you just never forget it. I can recall literally conversations I had in that race in 1994. I can recall what people were wearing. I can recall where I saw my parent. I recall it. It gets impressed upon your mind. So my synapses just absorbed it. So going back here after 13 goes at it and thinking, 'Wow, is this going to be a stale experience? Or what is it going to be like?' And it ended up being quite magical and quite transformative in my career as well as... I learned a lot about my father and my son, and I wrote a lot about that in the book, and watching them crew for me, and how things have changed over time. It wasn't a good race. I don't want to be a spoiler but I think good races don't make good stories. Good races, you pop the champagne, yeah, it's boring. You high five at the finish, you have some champagne, and all this good. When things go to shit, that's an interesting story. Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I've got three books full of things turning to shit. And I think it's beautiful that you talk about your dad or what a crazy guy he is, and your son coming and how your son was actually... Like you didn't know whether he was up to crewing for you really because he's a young man. He wasn't going to take this seriously because you need your crew to be on form. How do he actually do when he was out there? Dean: Yeah. There's a saying that in school, you get the lesson and you take the test. In parenting, you take the test and then you get the lesson. You're just like, 'Boy I screwed that one up.' You lose track of your kids, especially when they go off to uni. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand, or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. We are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us: everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us. Dean: As a parent, your kids grew up quicker than you adjust to them growing up, and I always treat them as a guy that needs his diaper change kind of thing even though he's 20 years old now. Nick was just such a dichotomous individual because he complained to me when he came home from uni that his roommates were such slobs. I said, 'How do you like living with three other guys?' He's like, 'It's great. They're my best friends, but they're such slobs.' Every every time I walked past his room, I'd look in his room, and it was a Tasmanian devil had gone through it. ‘Your room is such a mess.' When he volunteered the crew for me at Western States, claiming he knew how to do it, even though the last time he'd done it, he was nine years old, and he didn't do anything. At this time, he was actually driving a vehicle. He was the most important support I had during this kind of foot race. And I just thought that it was gonna be a horrible experience. That he'd be irresponsible, he wouldn't show up, and this, and that. At least it was just the opposite. He was the most responsible, so much more responsible than my dad. So much more capable. My dad's been doing this for 30 years, and my son who's never done it was so much better than my dad. He showed me a new side of him that I'd never seen. Lisa: That's him growing up, I suppose? Dean: Yeah. I think every parent that's got a kid is kind of nodding their head as they're hearing this because they can relate. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think kids, sometimes when they can be a kid, they'll be a kid. They'll be the irresponsible... But when you actually put them on the spot and expect something from them, sometimes, they come to the party if you're lucky, and actually step up to the line, and actually do a good job, and obviously, Nicholas did that. Dean: Yeah. I think it's more the burden of the parent to accept and to realise that this little baby is self-sufficient and capable. Let go of the fact that they once were so dependent on you. They're not anymore. They have their own life, and they can navigate their way through the world. Lisa: It must be pretty hard to let go. What do you think it's been like for them having such a famous, crazy, extreme athlete dad? Was it hard for both of them? Because I can imagine you were away a lot. You're doing dangerous, crazy, amazing things. Everybody knows you. You're extremely well known when you go anywhere. How did that affect the family in general? Dean: It's funny. My kids have never known me as anything different. They've always known me as this ultramarathoner, and it's always been a family affair for me. My kids, they've been to Australia, they've been to Europe multiple times, South America, all over North America. I have taken them with me. I once ran 50 marathons in all of the 50 US states in 50 days, and they were along. Yeah. How many kids... My son was nine, my daughter was 11. How many kids ever, how many people ever get to see all of the states of America, let alone when you're that age? So I think that they just accept me for what I am. Sometimes I get the fan thing where people come up to me like at a restaurant. Like, 'Oh, can you sign this or that?' And it's always good people. The people that come up to me in an airport and say, 'Hey, I really admire you. Can we do a selfie?' They're decent people. Like I want to go have a glass of wine with this guy or this lady. It's not like I'm a rock star or movie star where I have all the crazy people chasing around. The people who chase me around are my peers. People I really admire myself. Lisa: Or other runners. You know what? Something I've always admired about you, too, was that you always gave every single person time of day despite... And when we did that speaking gig together last year on the Gold Coast, I was really nervous, to be honest, because I was like, 'I'm on the stage with someone who is a superstar, and I'm little me.' Right? I'm sort of like, 'How the hell am I on stage with you? Because no one's gonna be interested in what the hell I've got to say when you're standing next to...' It's like some superstar, and you're standing on the stage with them, and you've got to do... It was quite difficult in a way because everybody wanted to... The line for your books was just two hours long. The line from mine was two people long. Dean: You carried yourself beautifully. I thought together, we were a great pair. We complemented each other. Lisa: You are a gentleman. You would always straight to me and make sure that I was included, which was fantastic. I saw you. Like you take the time for every single person. You are present with everybody, and that's a really hard thing to do. It's not so hard in a book signing, but it's bloody hard in the middle of a hundred-miler or a hundred K-er or when you were half-dead, dragging yourself into a checkpoint, and somebody wants a signature from you or a selfie, and you're trying to just get your stuff together. I found that difficult on my level of stuff. Because when I enter in New Zealand, I found that really difficult. I'd have people coming out on the road with me all the way through. And in that preparation, I thought that would be cool. In the reality of the day-to-day grind, did you know when you're... Because I was running up to 70K's a day. I was in a world of pain and hurt most of the time, and just struggling to keep going, and very, very breakable, you feel like. And then, you'd have people coming out and now it's been maybe 2, 3, 4 or 5K's with you, and they're full of beans, and they want you to be full of beans and full of energy, and give them the greatest advice in their 5K's when you're half dead. I found that really, really hard because I'm actually, believe it or not, quite introverted and when I'm running, I go in. How do you deal with it? How do you deal with that without being... Because you don't want to be rude. You don't want to be disrespectful to anybody, God forbid. But there were times on that run when I just literally had to say to my crew, 'I can't cope right now. I'm in a world of pain. I need some space.' And they have to sort of politely say, 'Sorry, she's not in a good space.' How do you deal with that? Dean: Well, it's amazing that we're having this conversation because there are not a lot of people that can relate intimately to what you just said. Because most people will never be in that position but what.. I experienced exactly you've experienced. When running 50 marathons in 50 days or running, I ran across America as well. When you're in a world of hurt, you've got this protective shell on, and you don't want to be social, and then I'd have groups of college kids show up with my book. Like 'Oh my god. Karnazes, you're such a great influence, and we love your book.' And 'Let's order a pizza.' I just feel like I just want to crawl into a mummy bag and hide and you just got to turn it on. Lisa: You've got to step up fine. Dean: Yeah, they're so happy to see you, and they want to see you on. They don't want to see you like this groveler just dying. They want to see you strong and engaging, and it's really tough sometimes. Yeah. It's definitely really tough sometimes. Lisa: Yeah, and that's why I admire that you managed to do that most of the time. You turn it on no matter in what shape you were. If I were to pull it out whereas, to be honest, a couple of times, I just couldn't. I'm just like, 'I'm done guys.' Remember on the run through New Zealand that one time? This was not with fans. I was running for CanTeen, the kids with cancer. I was in an immeasurable world of hurt one night after running for, God knows how long I've been out there, 1200 K's or something at the stage. I had a 13-year-old boy was sent into my room to give me a pep talk. He was dying of cancer or had cancer, and he was here to give me a pep talk because I was crying. I wasn't able to get up and run the next day. And he came in and told me how much it meant to him, and to his peers, and what it meant to him that I was undertaking this journey. That was a real lesson. Like, 'Oh, get over yourself. You're not dying, okay? You're not a 13 year old with cancer. You just have to run another 70 K's tomorrow. So what?' That's a good perspective. I did get up the next morning and go again and that was like, 'Here, come on.' Some funny but really touching moments. You are human and it's very easy when you go to a speaking engagement or whatever to be what you meant to be, a professional. But it's bloody hard when the chips are down and you're in the middle of a race to do that. So I really always did admire that about you. What I also admired was that it didn't matter whether you came first or last in a race. With the Western States, it was a struggle. You never shied away from the fact that today might not have been your day, and you're having a bad day, and you weren't embarrassed about that. I've had races with Pat Farmers, a classic one in the middle of the Big Red Run where I was just falling to pieces. I was going through some personal trauma at the time, and my back went out. Yeah, I was just at a bad place. And I was embarrassed because I failed at a race at that stage. I was in that mindset. Now, I look back and go 'Give yourself a break.' How do you cope with that? How do you... Like when you don't do what the fans expect you to do on that day? Dean: To me, it's your ego. Yeah, it is such an ego thing. And let's be honest, when you're a public figure, your failures are public. You don't fail in silence. You just kind of DNF and walk away and live the race another day. You DNF and people are taking pictures of you, and it's on the internet. I always got crowded. But in the end, I just... What can you do other than just do your best? You're human. All of us can only just do our best. So my commitment now is like, ‘When I stand on the starting line, I'm going to give it my all. I'm not going to leave anything on this course. I'm just going to be the best that Dean can be. I'm going to try my hardest and the only way I'm going to fail is if I don't try my hardest and don't give it my all.' And when you go with that mindset, no matter what happens, you're doing yourself a service. Lisa: Yeah, and you're a winner. This is such a powerful message, I think, for young people listening because often, we don't even try because we don't want to risk embarrassing ourselves, and risk failure, and risk looking like an idiot. And what you're saying is just forget your ego, set that to the side, and go, 'I'm going to give it all today, and if it isn't enough, it isn't enough and that's fine. I'll learn something out of it. And it's a journey that I'm on. And I'm going to be the best I can be today.' That's such a powerful story of perspective, and resilience, and leaving the ego at the door. I did struggle with that when I was younger because I had some pretty spectacular failures, and they really hurt. They really hurt where you take a long time to sort of go, 'Do I want to do that again in the public eye?' So to speak. And you've just always just been 'If it was a good day, it was a good day, and on to the next one if it was a bad day.' Dean: Yeah, I think bold failures build character. I have to be honest. Success builds character, but so does failure and in a more profound way. I lean into every emotion that I have. Either success or failure, sorrow or regret. All those things that happen when you have a bad race or a bad day. I want that full emotional range. It just makes you a better human, I think. Not to shy away from those deep lows where you're just crushed. I think that people that try to avoid that are really missing out. Yeah, yeah, it's painful and it hurts but it builds your character in a profound way. Lisa: Wow. That is so deep, actually. Because we're often taught push down your emotions, and keep them in a box, and be a professional, and keep going, and keep calm and carry on type thing. And it has its place as far as when you're in the middle of a race, you've got to keep your shit together, and compartmentalise stuff, and be able to function. But I think it's also very important to experience the pain, the grief, the pain, or whatever you're going through, and the happiness. It's another thing. I would get to the end of a race and it didn't matter how well I'd done, and what I've just achieved, and how difficult it was. I remember doing one in the Himalayas and a friend coming up to me afterwards and it was 220K race, extreme altitude, hell of a journey to get there, all sorts of obstacles. I get to the finish line and he's just like, 'Wow, you're amazing. It's incredible. I can't believe what you just did. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it.' And I just went, 'Oh no. Someone else was faster, and there's a longer race.' You know what I mean? And I didn't integrate it. And he just went, 'Oh, for crying out loud. Can't you just take this one to the bank and actually bank it as being a success and a huge win?' And I really took that to heart. And now, I pat myself on the back when I do even a little thing good because it reinforces that neural pathway in my brain that tells me, 'This was great because I just got a little reward' rather than, 'You're never good enough.' Because that was what I was telling myself before. No matter what I did, it wasn't enough. And now, flip that script around to go, 'Hey, you managed to do your shoelaces and get to the end of the road today. Well, done.' And it's the thought of it. Dean: It is, completely. My son said something to me that was along that same vein during the Western States. I said, ‘Nicholas…' This is maybe a mile 60 or 70 of a hundred-mile run. I said, 'My race is crap. I'm not having a good race.' And he looked at me, said, 'Dad, you're running a hundred miles. To most people, that's enough.' And I put it in perspective. That although I'm with all these super elite athletes, you're not doing that... To most people that hear about anyone running a hundred miles, they don't care if you came in first or last. A hundred miles? They don't care if my time was 15 hours or 50 hours. They're just so inspired. Yeah, blown away by it. Yeah. Lisa: Exactly, And I think that puts it because when we hang out... Because you are the sum total of the people that you hang out with, the top five, as the saying goes. And that can have negative connotations as well as positive. It can be the fact that you think if you're hanging out with the five top guys in the world, then you are going to be not looking too good. But if you're hanging out with just the average person, and you're doing something this long and this incredible, for most people, that's just like, 'Huh? Humans can do that?' I did a speaking engagement yesterday in Auckland and the people were like, 'But that's humanly impossible.' I go, 'It actually isn't, and there's actually thousands of us that do the stuff.' And then, they're like, 'What? I don't get it.' Dean: That was it. That was the same reaction I had when I heard about someone running a hundred mile like that. They're, 'Oh, there's trickery.' I thought there's trickery. I thought there's hotels, or just campgrounds, or something. The guy said, 'The gun goes off and you just run, and you stop when you cross the finish line.' I couldn't wrap my head around it. Lisa: Until you did it. Dean: Until you did it. Exactly, yeah. Lisa: And you built yourself up to it, and this is the thing. It's a combination of so much and it's that journey isn't it? So I think what we're talking about is it being this incredible life journey that you go on within an ultramarathon and within the training of our ultramarathon. It's like living an entire life in short. You're going through the highs, and the lows, and everything in between. And it's long, and it's hard, and it's awesome, and it's amazing, and you meet incredible people. It's everything that you go through in life but just on an intensive timescale, I feel like. And it's just a beautiful experience to go through, especially with the value of hindsight. Sometimes, in the middle of it, mile 70 of a hundred-mile race, it's not looking too flash. Dean: Well, but I mean, to that point, when we reflect back on moments that we remember, at least me, it's not the victories. It's not the crossing the finish line first to me. It's always that time where I thought, 'I'm done. This is it. I can't get out of this chair. I'm trashed.' And somehow getting through that really, really tough moment and carrying on. That's what sticks with you. It's pretty weird, at least with me. Those are the moments that reflect back on my career. It's those horrible moments that I somehow persisted. Lisa: When you look back, you're proud of yourself and you know that when... One of the biggest values, and I've seen this with my story with Mum and, unfortunately, recently with my dad, is that when the shit hits the fan, like it did in those two situations, I knew that I could step up to do everything within my power and that I was a fighter. I knew that I was a fighter, and then I knew that I would fight to the bitter end, whatever the outcome was. And that's a really good thing to know about yourself. Because you need to know that when things are down, what character do you have? Who are you when all the niceties of our world have gone? What are you capable of? And you learn to be able to function when everyone else is gone. And that's a really powerful lesson that ultramarathoning teaches you, I think, in decades of the sort of hard work. And that's why athletes, I think... When you're employing athletes or you going into business with other athletes, you're more likely to have someone who's willing to fight through the tough times than if you just get someone who hasn't ever experienced any sort of discomfort in their life. Then they're not liable to be able to push through and be as resilient. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Dean: I agree with you completely. And I often wonder if people have those character, those values, and that's what draws them to ultra running or if ultrarunning instils those values. I remember coming home from a run one time, and my neighbour was fetching up the morning paper. He saw me running back to my house and I'd, I don't know, I'd run 30 or 40 kilometres, and he said to me, 'Doesn't running hurt?' And I said to him, 'It doesn't if you're doing it right.' And he looked at me, 'I do everything to avoid difficult things.' And I'm like, ‘And I embrace it.' It's just a different mindset. Lisa: And if you have the mindset of wanting to always avoid all sorts of pain in life, then you're not going to experience very much. And when you're in a tough situation, you won't be able to cope because you won't have experienced any sort of pain. So the more that you had to struggle, the more strength you develop from that. The old proverb: 'Strength comes from struggle' is valid in all walks of life. So unfortunately, this is the way the world is set up. If you seek comfort all the time, you're actually going to be in deeper shit somewhere along the way and not able to help yourself because you haven't learned to fight, and you haven't learned to push through and to deal with a certain level of discomfort and a certain level of pain. And I think that's a really, really valuable thing to do. Every day, I try to experience some sort of discomfort or pain: whether it's cold, whether it's pushing myself mentally, intellectually, whether it's pushing myself physically, doing some intense extreme exercise, or whatever the case may be. Every day, I try to do something that it scares the shit out of me or pushes me in some way because then, I know that I haven't gone backwards that day. I've probably learned something, and gone forward, and I've strengthened my body and my mind in some sort of way, shape, or form. Dean: Yeah, but I think you're an exception. I think most people just try to take the path of least resistance and avoid difficult things and avoid pain. I think we've built our world around comfort: having every comfort available and removing as much discomfort and pain as we can. And I think, in a way, we're so comfortable, we're miserable. Lisa: Exactly. That's exactly the problem. Because by actually experiencing a little bit of pain, by doing your push-ups, going for your run, doing your pull-ups, whatever the case is, being outside and digging the garden and doing stuff that is a bit unpleasant, it actually makes your body stronger, and it makes you mentally stronger. If we all sit on the couch and watch Netflix all day every day and eat chips, what's going to happen to us? We're going to destroy our health. We're going to just be so... And this is... I think I'm scared for the younger generation, that they haven't actually... We grew up. We're roughly the same age. You're a couple years older. I grew up in the 70's where we were outside, doing something all day, every day. We came in at night time for a feed and went to bed. That was our childhood, and that was just a beautiful way to grow up. We were cold. We were hungry. We were tired. We were happy. Dean: We were playing, right? We were exercising. I remember riding my bike just everywhere. I never thought of it as exercise. It was playing. Kids don't play that way anymore, unfortunately. Lisa: It's a scary thing for them because we need to teach them. Because again, it goes back to sort of respecting our ancient DNA and that's what I think... That's another thing that ultramarathoning does, or even trekking, or adventuring in any sort of way, shape, or form. It's that we've come from stock that used to have to build their own houses, cut down their own trees, chase animals, whatever the case was, just to survive. And then, we now have it all laid on for us. We're in lovely houses. We've got light all day or night. We've got food every street corner. And our ancient DNA isn't just set up for that. This is where all the problems come. We could go on a complete rant, which I often do on this podcast. But coming back to your story in your Runner's High, what do you think now looking back at this incredibly long and prolific career and this incredible journey that you've been on so far, and I do think that you still got miles and miles to go. What are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned along the way on the thirty-odd year journey that you've been? What are the biggest takeaways from ultramarathon running? Dean: I think that it's the little moments that are the most priceless. It's not the moments where... I write about meeting with First Lady Michelle Obama. Yeah, that was great. It was amazing, and incredible, and everything else, but it's the little moments of having a moment with a crew member or your family that you just you reflect on and laugh about. So it's those things to me that are most priceless. The other thing with ultramarathoning that I've certainly learned is that it's a journey. To me, it's a passion and it's something I've committed my life to. And staying true to the person you are, there's value in that. Even though it's just running, Lisa. It's nothing hugely intellectual. I'm not winning Nobel prizes. I'm just a runner, but that's who I am and I'm staying true to that. I'm going to do that to the grave. And I think in that, there's a simplicity and I think there's some magic in that. Lisa: Oh, absolutely. You know what you're born to do. You say it's only running but actually, you're a teacher; you're an author; you're a person who empowers others. You're doing all of that in the framework of running. So you do a heck of a lot more than just running for me. You've influenced an entire generation worldwide. I hope you know. Without you, ultramarathon running would not be where it is today. So I think you know a little bit more than just running yourself. This is the power of books, and this is the power of storytelling. And it's the power of having such a unique character that is so charismatic and draws people in. And those are all the things that you've managed to take. You could have just been a silent runner who just did his thing and went away again, but you've chosen to share your journey with the world. And that's just gold because that just gives people an insight into what they can do. It's all about... when I read your books, I'm getting something for me. And everybody who's reading those books, that's actually, 'Yes, we talk. We're hearing Dean's story.' But we're actually going, 'Huh. Maybe I could do that. Maybe I could try that. Oh, yeah I've experienced that.' This is the conversation that are going on in people's heads when they read those stories, and that's why they have such an intimate connection with you. And why, even though it's weird when people come up and ask you for an autograph or any of that, they feel like they know you, and they do know you. Dean: I've got a message from a guy. Yeah, I know. Every time I think, 'Wow, this is really laborious, writing these books. And maybe it's my last book.' I got a message from a guy a couple days ago and he said, 'I was planning on reading a couple chapters of your new book before I went to bed.' And he said five hours later, 'I finished the last page.' And then, he said, 'And then I got up. I just had to go running.' Wow. Then the book worked if it motivated him to read the whole thing in one sitting and get up and go running, then it's worthwhile. Lisa: Absolutely. And you know when you read, I read books ferociously, and the list is long. I'm usually reading about 10 books at a time. And when I'm reading, I am distilling the world's top people and their entire experience, I get to absorb within the space of 10, 15 hours of reading their book. That's a good return on investment. If I want to download someone's experience, or knowledge, or whatever the case is, then reading books is just such a powerful way to do it and listening to podcasts as well. Because that's another way that you can do it without having to... You can be out and about, driving, or running, or whatever and absorbing some new information. And I think we're just so lucky to have access to all of this. It's just incredible. Dean: It is and it's a pity if you don't take advantage of that because you're so wise and educated. That conversation we had before the podcast, it's amazing how... It's amazing. Your knowledge base and how you developed your knowledge base. Well, you've absorbed the best of the best and what they're thinking and the research they've done. Lisa: Exactly. All you're doing is you're absorbing it from the best scientists, the best doctors, the best athletes, the best executives, the best business people, and then, you get to share it, teach it. This is the other thing. If I learn something in the morning, I'm teaching it in the afternoon. Usually it's to my poor husband or my mother. I'm teaching it and then, I often build into my programs, or it comes out in my webinars, or whatever. And you're basically just regurgitating stuff that you've learned, but it's powerful when you put it into the perspective of your experience and you change it. You learn it, you teach it. You learn it, you teach it. And that's a such a cool way to share, and get that information out there into the world, and actually help the world on your little corner of the earth and what you're doing. And that's what I love to do and that's the power of what your books are all about. So yeah, I commiserate with you. Getting a book out is a bloody long, hard journey. People don't realise how hard it is to write a book. Give me a bloody hundred miler any day over writing a book. In fact, give me ten hundred milers over any day because it's such a long process, isn't it? Dean: Well, I do a lot of my writing while I'm running actually. So I dictate into my phone now. Because we have some of our clearest thoughts while we're running. Before, I used to think, 'God, why didn't I write that down? How did that go again?' Now, I just dictate as I'm running and then come home, put in an earbud, and just type up my notes. Lisa: I haven't done variations of that. I do end up stopping on my runs and just writing a quick note. I haven't actually dictated. I have to start adapting that because maybe that'll make it easy because you're damn right. When I'm actually at the computer, there's distractions. There's a hundred windows open; there's notifications coming all the time, and I really find it hard to sit down and write. It is sometimes best if you could just dictate into something, so I'll have to give that a crack next time. Dean: I think motion stirs emotion. Lisa: Yeah, it does and it clears the mind. That's one thing I miss now that I'm not doing the ultras, personally, at the moment. It's that singularity of purpose. That cleanness the mind had before of this one goal. And I'm watching my husband's preparing for a hundred miler in November. And just watching everything in his whole day, and he has the luxury of doing this because we haven't got kids and stuff, but everything in his whole day is centred around his training and getting to that hundr

How do you handle stressful situations? Everyone's built a little different — some people can take their hits on the chin and come out smiling. But not everyone can take those hits. The pandemic has taken its mental toll on so many people. Others might still be struggling with past traumas and dealing with anxiety. Their situation keeps them in a state of constant worry and hypervigilance. That state of mind doesn't only harm their mental and emotional health — it can make them sick and more prone to physical diseases. More than ever, it's time to begin mental healing from past traumas, so we can better cope with our daily stresses.  Dr Don Wood joins us again in this episode to talk about the TIPP program and how it facilitates mental healing. He explains how our minds are affected by traumas and how these can affect our health and performance. If we want to become more relaxed, we need to learn how to go into the alpha brainwave state. Since mental healing is not an immediate process, Dr Don also shares some coping strategies we can use in our daily lives.  If you want to know more about how neuroscience can help you achieve mental healing, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how trauma can put you in a constant state of survival and affect your performance and daily life.  Understand that it's not your fault. Achieving mental healing will require you to learn how to go into an alpha brainwave state.  Discover healthy habits that will keep you from entering survival mode.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes:  #183: Sirtuin and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova  #199: How Unresolved Trauma Prevents You from Having a Healthy Life With Dr Don Wood Check out Dr Don Wood's books:  Emotional Concussions: Understanding How Our Nervous System is Affected By Events and Experiences Throughout Our Life You Must Be Out Of Your Mind: We All Need A Reboot   Connect with Dr Don Wood: Inspired Performance Institute I Facebook I LinkedIn     Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. 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Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [06:05] The Pandemic-Induced Mental Health Crisis The pandemic forced many people into a state of freeze mode, not the typical fight or flight response.  As people get out of freeze mode, there will be a rise in mental health issues.  Teenagers are robbed of the opportunity to develop social and communication skills during this time.  [08:24] How Dr Don Wood Started Studying Traumas Dr Don's wife grew up in a household with an angry father who instilled fear. He used to think that she would be less anxious when they started to live together, but she struggled with mental healing.  She had an inherent belief that misfortune always follows good things. Her traumas and fears also led to a lot of health issues.  She also was hyper-vigilant, which she used as a protective mechanism. However, this prevented her from being relaxed and happy. A person's environment can dictate whether they go into this hyper-vigilant state, but genetics can also play a factor.  [15:42] How Trauma Affects the Brain Trauma is caused by a dysregulation of the subconscious. If your brain is in survival mode, it will access data from the past and create physiological responses to them. These emotions demand action, even when it is no longer possible or necessary. This dysregulation prevents you from living in the present and initiating mental healing.  In this state, people can be triggered constantly, which interferes with their day-to-day life.  [21:07] The Role of the Subconscious Your conscious mind only takes up around 5%, while the subconscious takes up 95%. Your subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real and imagined.  In survival mode, people will keep replaying the past and think about different scenarios and decisions.  You're left stuck because the subconscious mind only lives in the now. It does not have a concept of time.  This process is the brain trying to protect you. [25:04] What Happens When You're Always in Survival Mode Being in survival mode will take a physical toll since it's constantly activating the nervous system, increasing cortisol and adrenaline. When you're in this state, your body and mind cannot work on maintenance and recovery. It is more focused on escaping or fixing perceived threats. Over time, this will affect your immune system and make you sick.  To truly achieve mental healing, you need to get to the root cause of your problems.  However, you also have to develop coping strategies to manage your day-to-day activities.  [30:18] Changing Your Brainwave State Traumatic events are usually stored in a beta brainwave state. Changing your response to traumatic events starts with going into an alpha brainwave state.  The beta state is usually from 15 - 30 hertz, while the alpha is lower at 7 - 14 hertz. Anything below that is the delta state, usually when you're in deep meditation or sleep. People who have trouble sleeping are usually in that beta state, which keeps processing information.  It's only in the delta state that your mind and body start the maintenance phase. This phase helps not only with mental healing but also physical recovery.  Learn more about Lisa and Dr Don's personal experiences with these brainwave states in the full episode!  [34:30] Mental Healing and Physical Recovery Starts with the Brain Recovery is about genetics and the environment. In sleep, your mind will always want to deal with the threats first. It can only get to the delta state once it finishes processing these dangers. Your risk for developing sickness and depression rises if your brain can't do maintenance. Living in the beta state will make it difficult to focus.  [41:40] It's Not Your Fault If you have a lot of trauma, you are predisposed to respond in a certain way. It's not your fault.  There's nothing wrong with your mind; you just experienced different things from others.  Dr Don likened this situation to two phones having a different number of applications running.  Predictably, the device that runs more applications will have its battery drained faster.  [44:05] Change How You Respond Working on traumas requires changing the associative and repetitive memory, which repeats responses to threats. You cannot change a pattern and get mental healing immediately—it will take time.  That's the reason why Dr Don's program has a 30-day recovery phase dedicated to changing your response pattern.  Patterns form because the subconscious mind sees them as a beneficial way of coping with traumas.  This function of your subconscious is how addictions form.  [47:04] Why We Can Be Irrational The subconscious lives only in the present. It does not see the future nor the past.  It will want to take actions that will stop the pain, even if the actions are not rational.  At its core, addiction is all about trying to stop the pain or other traumatic experiences.  Survival mode always overrides reason and logic because its priority is to protect you. [50:57] What to Do When You're in Survival State In this survival state, we're prone to movement or shutting down completely.  The brain can stop calling for emotions to protect you, and this is how depression develops.  When in a depressed state, start moving to initiate mental healing. Exercise helps burn through cortisol and adrenaline.  Once your mind realises there's no action required for the perceived threats, the depression will lift.   [53:24] Simple Actions Can Help There's nothing wrong with you.  Don't just treat the symptom; go straight to the issue.  Don't blame genetics or hormonal imbalances for finding it hard to get mental healing. Find out why.  Also, seek things that will balance out your hormones. These can be as simple as walking in nature, taking a break, and self-care.  [56:04] How to Find a Calming Symbol Find a symbol that will help you go back into the alpha brainwave state.  Lisa shares that her symbol is the sunset or sunrise, and this helps her calm down. Meanwhile, Dr Don's are his home and the hawk.  Having a symbol communicates to all parts of your brain that you're safe.  [59:58] The Power of Breathing  Stress may lead to irregular breathing patterns and increase your cortisol levels and blood sugar. Breathing exercises, like box breathing, can also help you calm down because the brain will take higher oxygen levels as a state of safety.  If you're running out of oxygen, your brain will think you're still in danger.  Make sure that you're breathing well. It's also better to do nasal breathing.    7 Powerful Quotes ‘The purpose of an emotion is a call for an action. So the purpose of fear is to run.' ‘People who have a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. Because not only is their mind processing what it experienced during the day, it's also taking some of those old files saying “Well, okay, let's fix that now. Right. Let's get that.”' ‘I was getting maximum restorative sleep. So an injury that I would have that could heal in two or three days, my teammates would two or three weeks. Because they were living in these, which I didn't know, a lot of my friends were dealing with trauma: physical, emotional, sexual abuse.' ‘There's nothing wrong with anybody's mind. Everybody's mind is fine except you are experiencing something different than I experienced so your mind kept responding to it, and mine didn't have that.' ‘That dysregulation of the nervous system. That's what we want to stop because that is what is going to affect health, enjoyment of life, and everything else.' ‘I talked about addiction as a code. I don't believe it's a disease. Your mind has found a resource to stop pains and your subconscious mind is literal. It doesn't see things as good or bad, or right or wrong.' ‘If there's a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic because it's designed to protect you.'   About Dr Don Dr Don Wood, PhD, is the CEO of The Inspired Performance Institute. Fueled by his family's experiences, he developed the cutting-edge neuroscience approach, TIPP. The program has produced impressive results and benefited individuals all over the world.  Dr Wood has helped trauma survivors achieve mental healing from the Boston Marathon bombing attack and the Las Vegas shooting. He has also helped highly successful executives and world-class athletes. Marko Cheseto, a double amputee marathon runner, broke the world record after completing TIPP. Meanwhile, Chris Nikic worked with Dr Wood and made world news by becoming the first person with Down Syndrome to finish an Ironman competition. Interested in Dr Don's work? Check out The Inspired Performance Institute. You can also reach him on Facebook and LinkedIn.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn steps to mental healing. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Transcript Of Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have Dr Don Wood who, you may recognise that name if you listen to the podcast regularly. He was on the show maybe a couple of months ago, and he is the CEO and founder of The Inspired Performance Institute. He's a neuroscience guy, and he knows everything there is to know about dealing with trauma and how to get the mind back on track when you've been through big, horrible life events or some such thing. Now, when we talked last time, he shared with me his methodology, the work that he's done, how he can help people with things like addictions as well and depression, and just dealing with the stresses of life, whether they be small stressors or big stressors.  We got to talking about my situation and the stuff that I've been through in the last few years, which many of you listeners know, has been pretty traumatic. From losing babies, to losing my dad, to mom's journey. So I was very privileged and lucky to have Dr Don Wood actually invite me to do his program with him. We share today my stories, how I went with that, and he explains a little bit more in-depth the neuroscience behind it all and how it all works. So if you're someone who's dealing with stress, anxiety, PTSD, depression, if you want to understand how the brain works and how you can help yourself to deal with these sorts of things, then you must listen to the show. He's an absolutely lovely, wonderful person.  Now, before we get over to the show, I just love you all to do a couple of things for me. If you wouldn't mind doing a rating and review of the show on Apple, iTunes or wherever you listen to this, that would be fantastic. It helps the show get found. We also have a patron program, just a reminder if you want to check that out. Come and join the mission that we're on to bring this wonderful information to reach to people.  Also, we have our BOOSTCAMP program starting on the first of September 2021. If you listen to this later, we will be holding these on a regular basis so make sure you check it out. This is an eight-week live webinar series that my business partner, my best buddy, and longtime coach Neil Wagstaff and I will be running. It's more about upgrading your life and helping you perform better, helping you be your best that you can be, helping you understand your own biology, your own neuroscience, how your brain works, how your biology works. Lots of good information that's going to help you upgrade your life, live longer, be happier, reduce stress, and be able to deal with things when life is stressful. God knows we're all dealing with that. So I'd love you to come and check that out. You can go to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  I also want to remind you to check us out on Instagram. I'm quite active on Instagram. I have a couple of accounts there. We have one for the podcast that we've just started. We need a few more followers please on there. Go to @pushingthelimits for that one on Instagram, and then my main account is @lisatamati, if you want to check that one out. If you are a running fan, check us out on Instagram @runninghotcoaching and we're on Facebook under all of those as well. So @lisatamati, @pushingthelimits, and @runninghotcoaching.  The last thing before we go over to Dr Don Wood, reminder check out, too, our longevity and anti-aging supplement. We've joined forces with Dr Elena Seranova and have NMN which is nicotinamide mononucleotide, and this is really some of that cooler stuff in the anti-aging, and longevity space. If you want to check out the science behind that, we have a couple of podcasts with her. Check those out and also head on over to nmnbio.nz. Right. Over to the show with Dr Don Wood.  Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have a dear, dear friend again who's back on the show as a repeat offender, Dr Don Wood. Dr Don Wood: I didn't know I was a repeat offender. Oh, I'm in trouble. That's great.  Lisa: Repeat offender on the show. Dr Don, for those who don't know, was on the show. Dr Don is a trauma expert and a neuroscientist, and someone who understands how the brain works, and why we struggle with anxiety, and depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder. We did a deep dive last time, didn't we, into the program that you've developed. Since then, everyone, I have been through Dr Don's pro program. He kindly took me through it. Today, I want to unpack a little bit of my experiences on the other side, s the client, so to speak. Talk about what I went through.  Dr Don, so firstly, welcome to the show again. How's it all over in your neck of the woods? Dr Don: Well, it's awesome over here in Florida. COVID is basically non-existent. Oh, yeah. Well, in terms of the way people are treating it, that's for sure. Very few people you see in masks now, everything is pretty much wide open. You can't even get reservations at restaurants. It's unbelievable. The economy is exploding here. There's so much going on. Yeah, I know the rest of the country, a lot of different places are still struggling with whether they're going to put mask mandates back on and all this kind of stuff but Florida seems to be doing very well.  Lisa: Well, I'm very glad to hear that because any bit of good news in this scenario is good because this keeps coming and biting everybody in the bum.  Dr Don: I know. Especially down there. You guys are really experiencing quite severe lockdowns and things, right? Lisa: Yeah and Australia, more so. Australia has gone back into lockdown. I've got cousins in Sydney who are experiencing really hard times in Melbourne and we've stopped the trans-Tasman bubble at the moment. Trans-Tasman was open for business, so to speak, with Australians being able to come to New Zealand without quarantine, but it's been shut down again. So yeah, we're still struggling with it, and the economy is still struggling with it but actually, in our country, we've been very lucky that we've managed to keep it out because they've had such tight controls on the borders. But yes, it's a rocky road for everybody, and it's not over yet, I think. Dr Don: Looks like it's going to continue, and that's creating a lot of stress.  Lisa: Oh, yeah, perfect.  Dr Don: This is what I've said. I think we're coming up to a tsunami of mental health issues because a lot of people have gone into freeze mode as opposed to fight or flight. Some people are in fight or flight. You're hearing about that on airlines: people just losing it, and getting mad, and fighting with flight attendants and passengers, and you see a lot of that. But I think that's obviously not the majority. I think most people are in that mode of just get through this, do what they ask, don't cause any waves, and just get this over with. So that's a freeze mode, and I think when people come out of freeze, you're going to start to see some of these mental health issues.  Lisa: Yes, I totally agree and I'm very concerned about the young people. I think that being hit very hard especially in the places that have the hardest lockdowns. If you're going through puberty, or you're going through teenagehood, or even the younger kids, I think, they're going to be affected massively by this because it's going to be a big before and after sort of situation for them.  Dr Don: And just the social. When we were teenagers, social was everything, I suppose. Learning how to communicate, and talk, and get along with other people, and good and bad. There were always struggles in school with learning how to get along with everybody but that is just sort of squashed. It's going to be fascinating to see when they do a study on the real true results of this pandemic. It's going to be a lot different than many people think.  Lisa: Yes, and I think the longer you ignore stuff, is we're going to see it's not just the people are unfortunately dying and being very sick from the actual COVID, but the actual effects on society are going to be big. That's why talking about the topic that we're talking about today, dealing with anxiety, and dealing with stress, and being able to actually fix the problem instead of just managing the problem, which I know you're big on.  So let's dive in there, and let's recap a little bit. Just briefly go back over your story, how you got to here, and what your method sort of entails in a helicopter perspective. Dr Don: Yeah, basically how I developed this was really because of the life that my wife led first and my daughter. My wife grew up in a very traumatic household with a very angry father that created tremendous fear. So everybody was... Just constant tension in that household. When I met her, I just realised how this was so different than my life. My life was in the complete opposite: very nurturing, loving. So I didn't experience that. I thought when she started moving in and we got married at 19, we were very young, that this would all stop for her. Because now, she's living in my world, my environment, and it didn't.  She just kept continuing to feel this fear that something was going to go wrong and nothing is going to go right. She struggled with enjoying things that were going well. I would say to her, 'We've got three beautiful children. We've got a beautiful home. Everything's going pretty good; nothing's perfect. You have your ups and downs, but it's generally a pretty good life.' She couldn't enjoy that because as a child, whenever things were going okay, it would quickly end and it would end, sometimes violently. So the way she was protecting herself is don't get too excited when things are going well because you'll get this huge drop. So that was what she was doing to protect herself. I just had a lady come in here a couple months ago, who very famous athlete is her husband: millionaires, got fame, fortune, everything you want, but she had a lot of health issues because of trauma from her childhood. When I explained that to her, she said, 'That's me. Your wife is me. I should be enjoying this, and I can't get there. I want to. My husband can't understand it.' But that's really what was going on for her too. Lisa: So it's a protective mechanism, isn't it? To basically not get too relaxed and happy because you've got to be hyper-vigilant, and this is something that I've definitely struggled with my entire life. Not because I had a horrible childhood. I had a wonderful childhood but I was super sensitive. So from a genetic perspective, I'm super sensitive. I have a lot of adrenaline that makes me code for, for want of a better description, I'm very emotionally empathetic but it also makes me swung by emotional stimuli very much. So someone in my environment is unhappy, I am unhappy. I'm often anxious and upset. My mum telling me she took me to Bambi. You know the movie Bambi? From Disneyland? She had to take me out of theatre. I was in distraught.  That's basically me. Because Bambi's mother got killed, right? I couldn't handle that as a four-year-old, and I still can't handle things. Things like the news and stuff, I protect myself from that because I take everything on. It's even a problem and in our business service situations because I want to save the world. I very much take on my clients' issues. I'm still learning to shut gates afterwards, so to speak, when you're done working with someone so that you're not constantly... So there's a genetic component to this as well.  Dr Don: Absolutely. So yours was coming from a genetic side but that's very, very common amongst people who have had a traumatic childhood. They're super sensitive.  Lisa: Yes. Hyper-vigilant.  Dr Don: Hyper-vigilant. That was my wife. She was constantly looking for danger. We'd come out of the storage and go: 'Can you believe how rude that clerk was?' 'What do you mean she was rude? How was she rude?' ‘You see the way she answered that question when I asked that, and then the way she stuffed the clothes in the bag?' And I'm like, 'Wow.' I never saw her like that. She was looking for it because that's how she protected herself because she had to recognise when danger was coming. So it was protection, and I hadn't experienced that so that made no sense to me; it made perfect sense to her.  Lisa: Yeah, and if someone was rude to you, you would be just like, 'Well, that's their problem, not my problem, and I'm not taking it on.' Whereas for someone your wife and for me... I did have a dad who was  a real hard, tough man, like old-school tough. We were very much on tenterhooks so when they came home, whether he was in a good mood today or not in a good mood. He was a wonderful, loving father but there was that tension of wanting to please dad. Mum was very calm and stable, but Dad was sort of more volatile and just up and down. It was wonderful and fun and other times, you'd be gauging all of that before he even walked in the door. That just makes you very much hyper-vigilant to everything as well.  Then, you put on, on top of that, the genetic component. You've got things like your serotonin and your adrenaline. So I've got the problem with the adrenaline and a lack of dopamine. So I don't have dopamine receptors that stops me feeling satisfaction and... Well, not stops me but it limits my feeling of, 'Oh, I've done a good job today. I can relax.' Or of reward. And other people have problems, I don't have this one, but with a serotonin gene, which is they have dysregulation of their serotonin and that calm, and that sense of well-being and mood regulation is also up and down. While it's not a predisposition that you'll definitely going to have troubles because you can learn the tools to manage those neurotransmitters and things like nutrition and gut health and all that aspect. Because it's all a piece of that puzzle, but it's really just interesting, and it makes you much more understanding of people's differences.  Why does one person get completely overwhelmed in a very trivial situation versus someone else who could go into war and come back and they're fine? What is it that makes one person? Then you got the whole actual neuroscience circuitry stuff, which I find fascinating, what you do. Can you explain a little bit what goes on? Say let's just pick a traumatic experience: Someone's gone through some big major trauma. What is actually going on in the brain again? Can we explain this a little bit?  Dr Don: Yeah, this is one of the things that... When I did my research, I realised this is what's causing the dysregulation: is your subconscious your survival brain is fully present in the moment all the time. So everything in that part of our brain is operating in the present. which is what is supposed to be, right? They say that that's the key, that success and happiness is live in the present. Well, your survival brain does that. The problem comes in is that only humans store explicit details about events and experiences. So everything you've seen, heard, smelled, and touched in your lifetime has been recorded and stored in this tremendous memory system. Explicit memory.  Animals have procedural memory or associative memory. We have that memory system too. So we have both. They only have procedural, associative. So they learn through repetition, and they learn to associate you with safety and love, but they don't store the details about it. But we store all the details about these events and experiences. So this is where this glitch is coming in. If you've got the survival brain, which is 95% of everything that's going on, operating in the present, accessing data from something that happened 10 years ago because something looks like, sounds like, smells like it again, it's creating a response to something that's not happening. It's looking at old data and creating a physiological response to it, and the purpose of an emotion is a call for an action. So the purpose of fear is to run, to escape a threat. But there's no threat. It's just information about the threat. That disrupts your nervous system and then that creates a cascade of chemical reactions in your body because your mind thinks there's an action required. Lisa: This is at the crux of the whole system really, isn't it? This is this call for action to fix a problem that is in the past that cannot be fixed in the now. So if we can dive a little bit into my story, and I'm quite open on the show. I'm sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly. When I was working with Dr Don, I've been through a very, very traumatic few years really. Lost my dad, first and foremost, last July, which was the biggest trauma of my life. And it was a very difficult process that we went through before he died as well. And there's a lift, as you can imagine, my brain in a state of every night nightmares, fighting for his life, he's dying over, and over, and over, and over again.  Those memories are intruding into my daily life, whereas in anything and at any time, I could be triggered and be in a bawling state in the middle of the car park or the supermarket. Because something's triggered me that Dad liked to to buy or Dad, whatever the case was, and this was becoming... It's now a year after the event but everything was triggering me constantly. Of course, this is draining the life out of you and interfering with your ability to give focus to your business, to your family, to your friends, every other part of your life. I'd also been through the trauma of bringing Mum back from that mess of aneurysm that everyone knows about. The constant vigilance that is associated with bringing someone back and who is that far gone to where she is now, and the constant fear of her slipping backwards, and me missing something, especially in light of what I'd been through with my father. So I'd missed some things, obviously. That's why he ended up in that position and through his own choices as well.  But this load, and then losing a baby as well in the middle, baby Joseph. There was just a hell of a lot to deal with in the last five years. Then, put on top of it, this genetic combination of a hot mess you got sitting before you and you've got a whole lot of trauma to get through. So when we did the process, and I was very, super excited to do this process because it was so intrusive into my life, and I realised that I was slowly killing myself because I wasn't able to stop that process from taking over my life. I could function. I was highly functional. No one would know in a daily setting, but only because I've got enough tools to keep my shit together. so to speak. But behind closed doors, there's a lot of trauma going on.  So can you sort of, just in a high level, we don't want to go into the details. This is a four-hour program that I went through with Dr Don. What was going on there. and what did you actually help me with?  Dr Don: So when you're describing those things that were happening to you, what was actually happening to your mind is it was not okay with any of that. It wanted it to be different, right? So it was trying to get you into a state of action to stop your father from dying: Do it differently. Because it kept reviewing the data. It was almost looking at game tape from a game and saying 'Oh, had we maybe run the play that way, we would have avoided the tackle here.' So what your mind was saying 'Okay, run that way.' Well, you can't run that way. This is game tape. Right? But your mind doesn't see it as game tape. It sees it as real now, so it's run that way. So it keeps calling you into an action.  And especially with your dad because you were thinking about, 'Why didn't I do this?' Or 'Had I just done this, maybe this would have happened.' What your mind was saying is, 'Okay, let's do it. Let's do that.' What you just thought about. But you can't do that. It doesn't exist. It's information about something that happened but your mind sees it as real. That's why Hollywood have made trillions of dollars because they can convince you something on the screen is actually happening. That's why we cry in a movie or that's why we get scared in a movie. Because your mind, your subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real or imagined. So that's actually happening.  You were just talking about the movie with Bambi, right? When you were little. 'Why is nobody stopping this from happening?' So your mind was not okay with a lot of these things that were happening, and it kept calling you to make a difference. That's what I never understood my wife doing. That before I really researched this, my wife would always be saying, 'Don't you wish this hadn't have happened?' Or 'Don't you wish we hadn't done this?' What I didn't understand at the time, because I used to just get like, 'Okay, whatever.' She'd go, 'Yeah, but wouldn't it have been better?' She wanted to get me into this play with her, this exercise. Lisa: This is going on in her head. Dr Don: Because it's going on in her head, and she's trying to feel better. So she's creating these scenarios that would make her feel like, 'Well, if I had just done that, gosh that would have been nice, thinking about that life.' And her mind seeing that going, 'Oh, that would be nice. Well, let's do that. Yes.' So she was what if-ing her life. And it was something that she did very early as a child because that's how she just experienced something traumatic with her father. In her mind, she'd be going, 'Well, what if I had to just left 10 minutes earlier, and I had have escaped that?' Or 'What if I hadn't done this?' So that's what she was doing. It made no sense to me because I hadn't experienced her life, but that's what she was doing. Her mind was trying to fix something. It's never tried to hurt you. It was never, at any point, trying to make you feel bad. It was trying to protect you. Lisa: Its job is to protect you from danger and it sees everything as you sit in the now so it's happening now. I love that analogy of these... What was it? Two-thirds of the car or something and... Dr Don: So goat and snowflake? Lisa: Goat and snowflake. And they're going off to a meeting and they're late. And what does the goat says to snowflake or the other way around? Dr Don: So snowflake, which is your conscious mind, your logical reasonable part of your mind, there's only 5, says the goat 95%, which is your subconscious mind. Who runs into a traffic jam says, 'Oh, we're going to be late. We should have left 15 minutes earlier.' To which goat replies 'Okay, let's do it. Let's leave 15 minutes earlier because that would solve the problem.'  Lisa: That analogy is stuck in my head because you just cannot... It doesn't know that it's too late and you can't hop into the past because it only lives in the now. This is 95% of how our brain operates. That's why we can do things like, I was walking, I was at a strategy meeting in Auckland with my business partner two days ago. We were walking along the road and he suddenly tripped and fell onto the road, right? My subconscious reacted so fast, I grabbed him right, and punched him in the guts. I didn't mean to do that but my subconscious recognised in a millimeter of a second, millionth of a second, that he was falling and I had to stop him. So this is a good side of the survival network: stopping and falling into the traffic or onto the ground.  But the downside of it is that brain is operating only in the now and it can't... Like with my father, it was going 'Save him. Save him. Save him. Why are you not saving him?' Then that's calling for an action, and then my body is agitated. The cortisol level's up. The adrenaline is up, and I'm trying to do something that's impossible to fix. That can drive you to absolute insanity when that's happening every hour, every day. Dr Don: Then that's taking a physical toll on your body because it's activating your nervous system, which is now, the cortisol levels are going up, adrenaline, right? So when your mind is in that constant state, it does very little on maintenance. It is not worried about fixing anything; it's worried about escaping or fixing the threat, because that's the number one priority.  Lisa: It doesn't know that it's not happening. I ended up with shingles for two months. I've only just gotten over it a few weeks ago. That's a definite sign of my body's, my immune system is down. Why is it down? Why can that virus that's been sitting dormant in my body for 40-something years suddenly decide now to come out? Because it's just becoming too much. I've spent too long in the fight or flight state and then your immune system is down. This is how we end up really ill.  Dr Don: We get sick. I was just actually having lunch today with a young lady and she's got some immune system issues. And I said, 'Think about it like the US Army, US military is the biggest, strongest military in the world. But if you took that military and you spread it out amongst 50 countries around the world fighting battles, and then somebody attacks the United States, I don't care how big and strong that system was, that military system was. It's going to be weakened when it gets an attack at the homefront.' So that's what was happening. So all of a sudden, now that virus that it could fight and keep dormant, it lets it pass by because it's like, 'Well, we can let that go. We'll catch that later. Right now, we got to go on the offensive and attack something else.' Lisa: Yeah, and this is where autoimmune, like your daughter experienced... Dr Don: About the Crohn's? Yep.  Lisa: Yep. She experienced that at 13 or something ridiculous? Dr Don: 14, she got it. Then she also got idiopathic pulmonary hemosiderosis which is another lung autoimmune disorder where the iron in the blood would just cause the lungs to release the blood. So her lungs just starts filling up with blood. They had no idea what caused it, that's the idiopathic part of it, and they just basically said, ‘There's no cure. She just needs to live close to a hospital because she'll bleed out if she has another attack.' Only 1 in 1.2 million people ever get that. So it's very rare so there's no research being done for it. They just basically say, ‘If you get it, live close to a hospital.' That's the strategy. Lisa: That's the way of fixing it.  Dr Don: And so both of those are autoimmune, and ever since we've gone to the program, she's hasn't had a flare-up of either one of those. Because I think our system is directly now able to address those things.  Lisa: Yeah, and can calm down. I think even people who haven't got post-traumatic stress like I've had or whatever, they've still got the day to day grind of life, and the struggle with finances, and the mortgage to be paid, and the kids to feed, and whatever dramas we're all going through. Like we talked about with COVID and this constant change that society is undergoing, and that's going to get faster and more. So this is something that we all need to be wary of: That we're not in this. I've taught and learned a lot about the coping and managing strategies, the breathing techniques, and meditation, the things, and that's what's kept me, probably, going. Dr Don: Those are great because they're... Again, that's managing it but it's good to have that because you've got to get to the root of it, which is what we were working on. But at the same time, if you don't have any coping, managing skills, life gets very difficult. Lisa: Yeah, and this is in-the-moment, everyday things that I can do to help manage the stress levels, and this is definitely something you want to talk about as well. So with me, we went through this process, and we did... For starters, you had to get my brain into a relaxed state, and it took quite a long time to get my brainwaves into a different place. So what were we doing there? How does that work with the brainwave stuff?  Dr Don: Well, when we have a traumatic event or memory, that has been stored in a very high-resolution state. So in a beta brainwave state because all your senses are heightened: sight, smell, hearing. So it's recording that and storing it in memory in a very intense state. So if I sat down with you and said, 'Okay, let's get this fixed.' And I just started trying to work directly on that memory, you're still going to be in a very high agitated state because we're going to be starting to talk about this memory. So you're going to be in a beta brainwave state trying to recalibrate a beta stored memory. That's going to be very difficult to do.  So what we do is, and that's why I use the four hours because within that first an hour and a half to two hours, we're basically communicating with the subconscious part of the brain by telling stories, symbols with metaphors, goat and snowflake, all the stories, all the metaphors that are built-in because then your brain moves into an alpha state. When it's in alpha, that's where it does restoration. So it's very prepared to start restoring. And then, if you remember, by the time we got to a couple of the traumatic memories, we only work on them for two or three minutes. Because you're in alpha, and so you've got this higher state of beta, and it recalibrates it into the same state that it's in. So if it's in alpha, it can take a beta memory, reprocess it in alpha, takes all the intensity out of it.  Lisa: So these brain waves, these beta states, just to briefly let people know, so this is speed, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the speed at which the brain waves are coming out. So in beta, like you'd see on ECG or something, it's sort of really fast. I think there's a 40 day... Dr Don: It's 15 to 30 hertz. Lisa: 15 to 30 hertz and then if you're in alpha, it's a lot lower than that? Dr Don: 7 to 14. Lisa: 7 to 14, and then below that is sort of when you're going into the sleep phase, either deep meditative or asleep. Dr Don: You're dreaming. Because what it's doing in dreaming is processing. So you're between 4 and 7 hertz. That's why people who have a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. Because not only is their mind processing what it experienced during the day, it's also taking some of those old files saying, 'Well, okay, let's fix that now. Right. Let's get that.' That's where your nightmares are coming from. It was trying to get you into a processing to fix that. but it couldn't fix it. So it continues, and then when you go below 4 hertz, you go into delta. Delta is dreamless sleep and that's where the maintenance is getting done.  Lisa: That's the physical maintenance side more than the... Dr Don: Physical maintenance. Yeah, because that's not processing what it experienced anymore. What it's really now doing is saying, 'Okay, what are the issues that need to be dealt with?' So if you're very relaxed and you've had a very... Like me, right? I played hockey, so I had six concussions, 60 stitches, and never missed a hockey game. The only reason now that I understand I could do that is because I'm getting two or three times more Delta sleep than my teammates were. Lisa: Physical recuperative sleep.  Dr Don: Yeah, I was getting maximum restorative sleep. So an injury that I would have that could heal in two or three days, my teammates would two or three weeks. Because they were living in these, which I didn't know, a lot of my friends were dealing with trauma: physical, emotional, sexual abuse. I didn't know that was going on with my friends. Nobody talked about it. I didn't see it in their homes, but they were all dealing with that.  Lisa: So they are not able to get... So look, I've noticed since I've been through the program. My sleep is much better, and sometimes I still occasionally dream about Dad. But the positive dreams, if that makes sense. They're more Dad as he as he was in life and I actually think Dad's come to visit me and say, ‘Hi, give me a hug' rather than the traumatic last days and hours of his life, which was the ones that were coming in before and calling for that action and stopping me from having that restorative sleep.  I just did a podcast with Dr Kirk Parsley who's a sleep expert, ex-Navy SEAL and a sleep expert that's coming out shortly. Or I think by this time, it will be out, and understanding the importance, the super importance of both the delta and... What is the other one? The theta wave of sleep patterns, and what they do, and why you need both, and what parts of night do what, and just realising...Crikey, anybody who is going through trauma isn't experiencing sleep is actually this vicious cycle downwards. Because then, you've got more of the beta brainwave state, and you've got more of the stresses, and you're much less resilient when you can't sleep. You're going to... have health issues, and brain issues, and memory, and everything's going to go down south, basically.  Dr Don: That's why I didn't understand at the time. They just said 'Well, you're just super healthy. You heal really fast.' They had no other explanation for it. Now, I know exactly why. But it had nothing to do with my genetics. It had to do with my environment. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on here. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way but to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com.  We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.  Dr Don: That's, at the time, we just thought it was all, must have been genetics. But I realised now that it was environment as well. So maybe a genetic component to it as well, but then you take that and put that into this very beautiful, nurturing environment, I'm going to sleep processing in beta what I experienced that day and then my mind basically, at that point, is 'What do we need to work on? Not much. Let's go. Let's start now doing some maintenance.' Because it wants to address the top of item stuff first. What is it needs to be taken care of right now? Right? Those are the threats.  Once it gets the threats processed, then it can then start working on the things that are going to be the more long-term maintenance. So then it'll do that. But if it never gets out of that threat mode, it gets out for very little time. Then, if you're getting 30 minutes of delta sleep at night and I'm getting two hours, it's a no-brainer to figure out why I would heal faster.  Lisa: Absolutely, and this is independent of age and things because you've got all that that comes into it as well. Your whole chemistry changes as you get older and all this. There's other compounding issues as it gets more and more important that you get these pieces of the puzzle right.  Do you think that this is what leads to a lot of disease, cancers, and things like that as well? There's probably not one reason. There's a multitude of reasons, but it's definitely one that we can influence. So it's worth looking at it if you've got trauma in your life. People were saying to me 'Oh my God, you don't look good.' When you start hearing that from your friends, your people coming up to you and going, 'I can feel that you're not right.' People that are sensitive to you and know you very well, and you start hearing that over and over, and you start to think, 'Shit, something's got real. Maybe I need to start looking at this.'  Because it's just taking all your energy your way, isn't it, on so many levels. The restorative side and the ability to function in your life, and your work, and all of that, and that, of course, leads into depressive thoughts and that hyper-vigilant state constantly. That's really tiresome rather than being just chill, relax, enjoying life, and being able to... Like one of the things I love in my life is this podcast because I just get into such a flow state when I'm learning from such brilliant... Dr Don: You're in alpha. Lisa: I am. I am on it because this is, 'Oh. That's how that works.' And I just get into this lovely learning in an alpha state with people because I'm just so excited and curious. This is what I need to be doing more of. And less of the, if you'd see me half an hour ago trying to work out the technology. That's definitely not an alpha state for me. Dr Don: That's where they said Albert Einstein lived. Albert Einstein lived in alpha brainwave state. That's why information just float for him because there was no stress. He could then pull information very easily to float into. But if you're in a high beta brainwave state, there's too much activity. It has trouble focusing on anything because it's multiple threats on multiple fronts. So when we have a traumatic event, that's how it's being recorded. If you remember, what we talked about was there's a 400 of a millionth of a second gap in between your subconscious mind seeing the information and it going to your consciousness. So in 400 millionths of a second, your subconscious mind has already started a response into an action even though your conscious mind is not even aware of it yet.  Lisa: Yeah. Exactly what I did with rescuing my partner with the glass falling off the thing. I hadn't reached that logically. Dr Don: It's funny because that's one of the things that I talked about ,which is sort of, give us all a little bit of grace. Because if you've had a lot of trauma, you're going to respond a certain way. How could you not? If your mind's filtering into all of that, of course you're going to respond with that kind of a response because your mind is prone to go into that action very, very quickly. So we can give ourselves a little bit of grace in understanding that of course, you're going to do that, right? And not beat ourselves up.  Because you know what I talked about with everybody, there's nothing wrong with anybody. There's nothing wrong with anybody's mind. Everybody's mind is fine except you are experiencing something different than I experienced so your mind kept responding to it, and mine didn't have that. So you had multiple... Think about we have a hundred percent of our energy on our phone when we wake up in the morning, right? Fully powered up. You fire the phone up and eight programs open up, right? And mine has one.  Lisa: Yeah. You're just focusing on what you need to. Dr Don: Then noon comes, and you're having to plug your phone back in because you're out of energy.  Lisa: That's a perfect analogy. You're just burning the battery. My all is a hundred windows open in the back of my brain that is just processing all these things and so now, I can start to heal. So having gone through this process with you, like you said, we worked on a number of traumatic experiences, and I went through them in my mind. And then you did certain things, made me follow with my eyes and track here, and my eyes did this, and then, we pulled my attention out in the middle of the story and things. That helped me stay in that alpha state, brainwave state as I probably now understand while I'm still reliving the experience. That's sort of taking the colour out of it so that it's now sort of in a black and white folder. Now, it can still be shared, and it hasn't taken away the sadness of... Dr Don: Because it is sad that these things happen but that's not the response for an action which is that fear or anger, right? That dysregulation of the nervous system. That's what we want to stop, because that is what is going to affect health, enjoyment of life and everything else.  Lisa: Wow, this is so powerful. Yeah, and it's been very, very beneficial for me and helped me deal. For me, it also unfolded. Because after the four hour period with you, I had audiotapes and things that are meditations to do every day for the next 30 days. What were we doing in that phase of the recovery? What were you targeting in those sort of sessions?  Dr Don: So if you remember what we talked about, we have two memory systems. The explicit memory is what we worked on on that four hours. That's detail, events, and experiences. Once we get the mind processing through that, then we have to work on the same memory animals have, which is that associative repetitive memory. So you've built a series of codes on how to respond to threats, and that has come in over repetition and associations. So the audios are designed to start getting you now to build some new neural pathways, some new ways to respond because your mind won't switch a pattern instantly. It can switch a memory instantly, but a pattern is something that got built over a period of time. So it's like a computer. If I'm coding on my computer, I can't take one key to stop that code. I have to write a new code. Yeah, so what we're doing over the 30 days is writing new code. Lisa: Helping me make new routines and new habits around new neural pathways, basically.  Dr Don: You don't have that explicit memory interfering with the pathways. Because now, it's not constantly pulling you out, going back into an action call. It's basically now able to look at this information and these codes that got built and say, 'Okay, what's a better way? So do we have a better way of doing it?' Or 'Show me that code. Write that code.' If that code looks safer, then your mind will adopt that new code. Lisa: This is why, I think for me, there was an initial, there was definitely... Like the nightmares stopped, the intrusive every minute, hour triggering stopped, but the process over the time and the next... And I'm still doing a lot of the things and the meditations. It's reinforcing new habit building. This is where... Like for people dealing with addictions, this is the path for them as well, isn't it?  Dr Don: Yeah. Because I talked about addiction as a code. I don't believe it's a disease. Your mind has found a resource to stop pains, and your subconscious mind is literal. It doesn't see things as good or bad, or right or wrong. It's literal. 'Did that stop the pain? Let's do that.' Because it's trying to protect you. So if you've now repeated it over and over, not only have you stopped the pain, but you've built an association with a substance that is seen as beneficial. Lisa: Because your brain sees it as medicine when you're taking, I don't know, cocaine or something. It sees it as essential to your life even though you, on a logical level, know that, ‘This is destroying me and it's a bad thing for me.' Your subconscious goes, 'No, this is a good thing and I need it right now.' Dr Don: Because it's in the present, when does it want the pain to stop? Now. So it has no ability to see a future or a past. Your subconscious is in the moment. So if you take cocaine, the logical part of your brain goes, 'Oh, this is going to create problems for me. I'm going to become addicted.' Right? Your subconscious goes, ‘Well, the pain stopped. We don't see that as a bad thing.' I always use the analogy: Why did people jump out of the buildings at 911? They weren't jumping to die. They were jumping to live because when would they die? Now, if they jump, would they die? No. They stopped the death. So even jumping, which logically makes no sense, right? But to the subconscious mind, it was going to stop the pain now.  Lisa: Yeah, and even if it was two seconds in the future that they would die, your brain is going...  Dr Don: It doesn't even know what two seconds are.  Lisa: No. It has no time. Isn't it fascinating that we don't have a time memory or understanding in that part of the brain that runs 95% of the ship?  Dr Don: It's like what Albert Einstein said, ‘There's no such thing as time.' So it's like an animal. If an animal could communicate and you say, 'What time is it?' That would make no sense to an animal. 'What do you mean? It's now.' 'What time is it now?' 'Now. Exactly.' Lisa: It's a construct that we've made to... Dr Don: Just to explain a lot of stuff, right? When something happens.  Lisa: Yeah, and this is quite freeing when you think of it. But it does make a heck of a lot of sense. So people are not being destructive when they become drug addicts or addicted to nicotine, or coffee, or chocolate. They're actually trying to stop the pain that they're experiencing in some other place and fix things now. Even though the logical brain... Because the logical brain is such a tiny... Like this is the last part of our evolution, and it's not as fully...  We can do incredible things with it at 5%. We've made the world that we live in, and we're sitting here on Zoom, and we've got incredible powers. But it's all about the imagination, being able to think into the future, into the past, and to make correlations, and to recognise patterns. That's where all our creativity and everything, or not just creativity, but our ability to analyse and put forth stuff into the world is happening. But in actual, we're still like the animals and the rest of it. We're still running at 95%, and that's where we can run into the problems with these two.  Dr Don: Because you got two systems. You got a very advanced system operating within a very primitive system, and it hasn't integrated. It's still integrating, right? So if there's a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic, because it's designed to protect you. So there's no reason and logic that will come in if there's a survival threat. It's just going to respond the way it knows, does this Google search, 'What do we know about this threat? How do we know to protect ourselves, and we'll go instantly into survival mode.' Again, there's the reason and logic. Why would you jump out of a building, right? If you applied reason and logic, you wouldn't have jumped, right? People will say, 'Well, but they still jumped.' Yes, because reason and logic didn't even come into the process. It was all about survival.  Lisa: Yeah. When the fire is coming in it was either... Dr Don: 'Am I going to die out now or I'm going to move and not die now?'  Lisa: Yeah, and we're also prone to movement when we're in agitation and in an agitated state, aren't we? Basically, all of the blood and the muscles saying, 'Run, fight, do something. Take action.' Dr Don: That's why when people get into depression, it's the absence of those emotions.  Lisa: Yeah, and people feel exhaustion.  Dr Don: Yeah. The mind kept calling for an action using anger, for example, but you can't do the action because it's not happening, so it shuts down to protect you and stops calling for any emotion, and that's depression. So the key to get out of depression is actions. It's to get something happening. So in a lot of people who are depressed, what do I tell them to do? 'Start moving. Start exercising. Get out. Start doing things.' Right?  Lisa: So I run ultras. Dr Don: Exactly. Perfect example, right?  Lisa: Yeah, because I was. I was dealing with a lot of shit in my life at the time when I started doing ultra-marathons. To run was to quiet the pain and to run was to be able to cope and to have that meditative space in order to work through the stuff that was going on in my life. And I know even in my husband's life, when he went through a difficult time, that's when he started running. So running can be a very powerful therapeutic, because there is a movement, and you're actually burning through the cortisol and the adrenaline that's pouring around in your body. Therefore, sitting still and that sort of things was just not an option for me. I had to move. And it explains what, really. It's calling the movement. Like it was a movement because I couldn't fix the other thing.  Dr Don: That's what they'll tell you to do. To get out of depression is to move. What I say is the way to get out of depression is to get your mind to resolve what it's been asking for. Lisa: It's going a little deeper.  Dr Don: Yeah. So it's going down and saying, 'Okay, why has it been getting you angry and now, it shut down from the anger?' Because it's been trying to get you in your situation. 'Don't let Dad die. Don't let this happen.' Right? So because you couldn't do it, it just shuts down. Makes perfect sense but when we get to the resolution that there is no action required, there's no need for the depression anymore. The depression will lift because there's no more call for an action.  Lisa: I can feel that in me, that call. Anytime that anything does still pop up, I sort of acknowledge the feeling and say, 'There is no call for action here. This is in the past. This is a memory.' So I do remind myself that when things do still pop up from time to time now, as opposed to hourly. I go, 'Hey, come back into the now. This is the now. That was the then that's calling for an action. This is why you're doing thing.' Even that understanding

Lisa Vielee is President at Well Done Marketing, a 15-yer-old full-spectrum, strategic, creative, and technical agency that provides design, branding, content marketing, public relations, and digital strategy services . . . but not traditional media-buying.  Lisa claims this small, independent agency is unusual for its size in that it has a full web development team and can “go straight from web design to UX, UI, and development, testing, and then continue with ongoing maintenance web development. Lisa explains that “design to development” can be a rocky handoff – but keeping everything “in agency” eliminates this problem. Today, websites, which used to be one-and-done “catalogs,” require constant updating to make sure they provide great customer experience, enhance and support the customer journey, and align with changing customer needs. New business comes into Well Done in one of three ways—through referrals, through “the dreaded RFP process, and finally, and through outbound sales. Dedicated service managers serve as primary points of contact for clients, represent the agency's team for the client and the client internally, and bring in the staff with required skill sets as they are needed. Lisa believes the agency's small size of 30-some employees promotes nimbleness and the ability to maximize budgets. The agency's clients present the agency with “problems to be solved” but solutions now are far more comprehensive than they were in the past. Lisa says it is important to “not just focus on the initial creative strategy” (which tends to live short term inside a campaign) but to take a wider view and develop marketing strategies aligned with long term business and brand goals. She says marketing, is “more than just distribution channels and the4 Ps” (product, price, place, promotion)—marketing needs a seat at the C table.  Lisa feels it is important to mentor younger people and asks them to define their “end goals” and “their visions of success.” She explains that some people may want to create a company, sell it, and become millionaires. Others may want a tight, small, focused team that provides meaningful service and personal satisfaction. Still, others just want to come to work and do a good job, day in and day out. Lisa says these are all valid and that, no matter what each individual is pursuing as success, Well Done will work to keep them challenged.  Lisa, who refers to herself as a “communications generalist,” did not start her career at Well Done Marketing. After earning a degree in journalism, she almost immediately went to the “dark side,” and worked in a variety of public relations positions. When her political candidate/employer lost an election, Lisa started her own PR firm . . . which grew until she had a choice, she either had to start saying “no” or add employees. She met with an old friend, Ken Honeywell, to ask him to mentor her and help her grow to the next level.  But Ken Honeywell had other ideas. He and a fellow freelance writer had started Well Done Marketing by outsourcing their services to other agencies. As they grew, they added visual and strategic skills and data management. Now, Ken wanted to add public relations to his firm's offerings. He brought Lisa on board to add PR and with the intention of grooming her to take over the agency's leadership as he started his 5- to 8-year journey toward retirement.  Six years in, Lisa understands the culture, knows where the agency excels and has developed her vision for the agency's future. Ken will be retiring at the end of the year. Lisa says the hardest part for her in stepping into the role of president has been giving up day-to-day client interaction. Her focus now is on agency-level problems and issues, expanding the agency from a regional to a national “marketing force,” and making it a legacy that lives beyond this transition in leadership. Lisa is available on her agency's website at Welldonemarketing.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Lisa Vielee, President at Well Done Marketing based in Indianapolis, Indiana. Welcome to the podcast, Lisa. LISA: Thanks, Rob. It's good to be here. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Why don't you give us an introduction to Well Done Marketing and what you do that is so well done? LISA: Well Done Marketing is a 15-year shop here in Indianapolis. We're a full-service marketing agency. We like to say that if it's strategic, creative, or technical, we probably do it. That's everything from design, branding, content marketing, public relations, digital strategy. Also, kind of unusual for an agency our size as a small/mid-size agency, we have a full web development team. So we can go straight from web design to UX, UI, and development, testing, and then ongoing maintenance for our clients, which is really great because sometimes that handoff from design to development can be a little rocky and some things can get lost in translation. That's part of the reason why we brought it in-house. For the most part, unless it's traditional media buying, you can find it here at Well Done. ROB: That's an interesting evolution, because for a time – and this may be part of your transition – web development used to be kind of one-and-done. It seems to me now that a website is never really done and needs to be adjusted alongside everything else that's going on with the brand. LISA: Absolutely. Websites have gone from brochures online to really more of a customer experience. It's the first thing people see and learn about your company, so keeping that content fresh has really evolved from being just updating blog posts to updating everything on your site and making sure it aligns with what the customer wants. The customer journey is paramount, and I think that's where having data and content and having that come together makes a lot of sense, and being able to change that in real time helps us as an agency, and we think helps our clients be really competitive in the market. ROB: Right. It turns it from this big event into just part of the cadence. I totally understand that. Can you maybe give us a picture through the lens of a particular client? What's a walk-through of a typical-ish client engagement for you? Who are you working with? What are the touchpoints? LISA: For any advertising agency, there's probably no such thing as a “typical” client. The clients that we love to work with are the clients that come to us with an overall problem to be solved. It used to be that was always an agency of record, but now it tends to be a project comes in and they recognize that marketing partners such as ourselves can help them do more than put a piece of content or an advertising campaign together. One of our philosophies is to not just focus on the initial creative strategy, but to really take a step back whenever we can and focus on the marketing strategy. That's really more aligned with business goals and brand goals, whereas a campaign – creative strategy tends to live in that campaign, that short term. For a lot of our clients, they'll come to us for a project and then find that we're asking questions and going outside of our lane, giving advice to them that goes beyond the campaign. Even if they don't continue with us, our hope is that we can help that marketing person or that marketing director really understand why they need a seat at the table in the C-suite, and that marketing is really more than just distribution channels and the 4 Ps. ROB: Right. As you talk about the range of services that you work with clients on, how are you then structuring the client engagement and the team around them? How are you establishing the primary point of contact and how do you bring people to the team around them? What's that structure look like? LISA: We have dedicated service managers responsible for all of our clients. They're the primary point of contact. Then we bring in people as needed. Again, as a small independent agency, we can be a little more nimble. We can maximize budgets that way. So we'll tell clients, with the exception of the initial kick-off meeting, where you want everybody at the table – other than that, you will see people when you need them at whatever stage of the process you're in. That account manager's responsibility is not only to represent our team for the client, but also to represent the client internally. ROB: It's such a key relationship and it's always interesting to think about how to structure it, because it's really make or break. There's a lot of stake there in that role. LISA: There absolutely is. A lot of agencies get started with the trifecta. You've got a creative person, a writer, a designer, and an account service person. For us, that's not really how we started. Our two founders were both freelancers, so they started with this loose coalition of freelancers. The two people were writers, and they started an agency based on providing good content. Their first clients were typically other agencies. Along the way, our founder decided that we could do more, that it really was about how he and his partner were thinking as well as the content that came out of it. So as the agency evolved, we found it made sense to show how that thinking works visually, strategically, through buys, through data management, and ultimately – my background's in PR, so also in how we were communicating to different stakeholders. ROB: Absolutely. I think you bring us to an important part of the conversation. You mentioned the founders of the firm, you mentioned those older parts. You've taken us through a little bit of the origin story, but let's talk about your journey into the firm, what you were up to before, and what it looked like to dive into Well Done, and now you're the president. LISA: I am a proud communications generalist. I graduated with a degree in journalism, went over to the dark side and started working in public relations almost immediately, and over the course of my career, I've worked in internationally recognized nonprofits; I've done a stint in two or three different agencies of different sizes. I worked in state government, and then, as is typically the case in government, eventually your candidate loses. When my candidate lost, I took some time to think about what I wanted to do and how I wanted to balance my work and life. I decided to hang my own shingle. You get to a point as a freelancer where you have to decide if you're going to start saying no to preserve your own sanity or if you're going to add people. I have trouble saying no, so I started adding additional people. Ken Honeywell, our founder, and I have known each other forever. Indianapolis is known as one of those “small town” big cities. Everybody seems to know everybody, and in the marketing and advertising space, we all have tended to work with each other or for each other. So Ken and I have known each other for years. We came to a point where I actually asked him to go to lunch because I wanted to ask him how to take the next step. I was under five employees; he at the time had about 20, and I wanted to ask him to be my mentor and really help me grow. It was a fun conversation because his answer was, “Well, sure, I'd be happy to help you, but I was hoping we could take this conversation in a different direction. I think we need to add PR, and why don't you come on board? And oh, by the way, I think you'd be a great successor and a great leader for Well Done.” Really, it was one of those I was looking through a door and he opened the window, and we started having that conversation. From the beginning, we were very intentional about not only how to add that service line and that different way of approaching a customer's communication needs, but also how we were going to approach the internal management of the agency. The staff immediately knew that it was a sign that Ken was going to retire. We always said it was a 5- to 8-year journey so that I could learn the culture, I could really come in and understand where we did our best work and what that meant, and also put my vision together for the second generation of leadership. And now here we are 6 years later, and it's bittersweet because Ken is retiring at the end of the year, but everyone is ready. Not ready as in “Get out of here,” but ready in terms of we know where we've been, where we're going, how our story is evolving. ROB: What I'm hearing you say is first day in the door, you were going from around five people in your organization to maybe around 30 or so? What was that jump in responsibility? LISA: Yeah, I was employee #24. In the last few years, we've added people. I think we're now at mid-30s. I'd like to think that bringing my company in was a good addition because we've been able to add clients and add people. But the other thing that I've realized, again, as that communications generalist, is I was well-positioned to understand the agency from a business perspective. A lot of agencies that are started the way ours started don't necessarily have the greatest business structure. I take this role of president really seriously in that I've given up being involved on the day-to-day – which was really, really hard. That was probably my biggest challenge at first. I didn't want to give up that day-to-day client interaction and being involved in solving their problems. It took me a couple of years, but I realized after time that my job was to solve the problems and issues of the agency and working on the agency. That's really set us up for success going forward because my leadership team, we have big dreams. We want to grow from a regional company to a more nationally recognized agency. And having someone at the helm of that is a really important part to making that happen. ROB: Was that the hardest part to let go of? The last responsibility you wanted to give up was working directly with the clients, then? LISA: It's been a 5-year journey. To be fully transparent, I am turning over the reins for my last client next month. ROB: That's progress, right? I think you highlight a neat opportunity for the entire services industry. There's seemingly always room for the next wave of companies to rise up from nothing to regional player to national player. Some of them get bought along the way and some of them stand strong. It's a great journey to be on. LISA: Yeah, I think so. It's exciting, for sure. In my experience, from the places where I've worked, a lot of agencies, especially in the Midwest – we're very humble people. It's kind of scary to share that big goal. But again, to have a founder who is so willing to help his baby get to the next step and bring on someone that can really make it become a legacy – because that's the other thing. Agencies tend to come and go as the founders come and go. It's been a real gift to have this opportunity to really work with our leadership team and envision where we want to go and make it something that can be a legacy for our founder. ROB: When you start to think about growth, there's lots of struggles, but there's a couple that constantly come into play. It's sales and execution in the services business overall. I think one of the hardest things to get predictable for an agency can be seeing a lane to predictable growth beyond – I think sometimes we just feel like we luck into business, we get referrals, we grow organically. How have you thought about scaling growth? I think that can be very intimidating. LISA: That's an interesting question, because we've tried several different models for that. We have had a couple of new business directors and have found – and maybe it's just my poor hiring, but we've had people that are great networkers and can open doors, but are not salesmen, and we've had people that are great salespeople but don't necessarily understand the agency business. We have now made business development a responsibility of our accounts team and really have encouraged anyone that has that dream client or that industry that they bring some expertise or they want to grow in, to bring that to the table, and we'll start looking for connections. I might be dating myself here, but it's a little bit like seven degrees of Kevin Bacon. Eventually we sit down and realize that there's no such thing as a cold lead. ROB: Right. What I hear you saying is that the accounts team function in an opportunity identification mode, and then it's more of a team sport after that. LISA: Yeah, it is. Let me take a step back. New business comes in in one of three ways. We've mentioned referrals; that's always a primary source, especially from clients who believe in what you do and think you're a good partner. There's always the dreaded RFP process. [laughs] It's a necessary evil of our business and can result in really good work. Then the third piece is that outbound sales. I think this is a place where ecommerce, SaaS companies – obviously, you get into the retail and consumer market, people do really well. But professional services tend to have a struggle in carving out time for that. I think that's the difference. That's where the lead really happens for a small agency to become more of a mid-size regional player: by recognizing that you have to sell yourself a little bit as well and go after some of those big fish. For a long time, we talked about how we were punching above our weight class. I've really challenged our team to start thinking, maybe we're in our weight class. Let's just punch where we are because we can do the work and we bring a special kind of strategy and thinking to the table that helps distinguish us from some of our larger competitors who may have scaled to such a size that the process is there, and it works for their clients, but we're a little bit scrappier. ROB: Right. There's an extent to which I think unless an organization is very intentional about seeking a particular size of opportunity – I know very small consultancies that pursue very large clients, and we've talked to a couple of agencies on the podcast that are 800 people and they're working with local plumbers. Those are the exceptions. Everything else seems like, to an extent, the right size opportunity ends up matching your speed. I can't quite explain the serendipity of it, but it seems the size of opportunity comes to you when you're ready for it, to an extent. LISA: Yeah, I completely agree. Serendipity is a great word. I have always referred to it as karma. One of the things any company has to do, in my opinion, as they grow is have the ability to say no. That's the local plumber thing. It's really hard to say no to business, especially – we're a 15-year agency; we lived through the recession. We're currently living through COVID, and third and fourth generation of COVID. There's a tendency to just take any work as it comes. I'm a firm believer that if you say “No, thank you” with a referral – “Let me hook you up with someone that might be a better fit” – that's karmic, and people remember that. They remember that you're good people, and when the time is right, that's going to come back around and it's going to serve you. ROB: Something I think you alluded to when you mentioned the SaaS companies, the startups, the software companies – it seems that sometimes service companies, agencies, will try to borrow maybe a little bit too much from those playbooks, and in the process they'll try to act like a SaaS company that's trying to sell $500 a month widgets, which is never going to feed the business sufficiently. How have you thought about the right granularity of sales? It sounds like by surfacing the leads through a thoughtful process with the team, you're avoiding this kind of “Let's blast the universe and everyone who could be our customer.” LISA: You couldn't have said it better. On my drive in to work, I listen to marketing podcasts much like this one, and I wish I could remember where I heard it so I could attribute it correctly, but I heard someone talk about issuing a challenge to agencies to decide where they live on a continuum. Are you an agency that makes things, or are you an agency that thinks things? So a true consultancy, which has become a bad word, or that widget-maker? I like to think Well Done leans more to the thinking things side. We're not a good fit for people that need widgets. We're going to be too expensive, or our process is going to be too frontloaded, or frankly you're going to get frustrated because we are interested in creating your brochure or your website. We're really interested in understanding not only how to find a solution for your problem, but why is your problem a problem? So we tend to really look at context as well as content. Our model is very audience-centric, and that means our client – we get that our clients have 1,000 things to think about. For us, we're thinking about them 100% of the time we're working on the account, but for them, our work is only a part of it. If we can ask smart questions, help them consider things outside of our little part of it, and take some of that off their plate simply by understanding the context in which they're working, then for us, that's really when we're successful at our job. ROB: That makes sense. You're going to naturally match pace with some of those clients that look like where you are as an organization and where you're comfortable. In the startup world, they talk about – not that we're hunting animals; people won't like that metaphor – but the question, are you hunting rabbits or deer or elephants? You need to know, because those tasks all take specific tools, specific teams, specific tactics, and you're going to have to build the whole organization around it. Or you're just going to wait around and see what falls into the trap, I guess might be the metaphor. [laughs] LISA: [laughs] And it requires some strength of character as an organization as well. When you hunt elephants, that's a longer play. It takes more people. You've got to see the elephant from every side, and there's some risk involved with that. So it's building some of that internal trust that this is going to be the right fit for us; this is going to fit our mission. For Well Done, our mission is to do good in the world and work with clients who are doing good in the world. That's not a fit for everybody. Yeah, sure, we could – what's the other analogy? – shoot fish in a barrel, as long as we're on the hunting theme here. You could shoot fish in a barrel and get all of those little projects pretty easily, but it doesn't help an agency grow, and frankly, in my experience, I don't think it is satisfying for people that really have a passion for this industry. ROB: Lisa, as you reflect on your tenure with Well Done, but also leading into that, what are some lessons you've learned along the way that you might want to go back and tell yourself to do things a little bit differently if you were starting over? LISA: Some of it is really personal to me and my personality, so I'm not sure how helpful this'll be, but all the personality tests I've taken, I'm a driver, I'm a high D, Type A. One of the things I've learned along the way is the bull in a china shop method is really not effective. It really, really is not effective. It really is about listening and learning and creating a culture of mentorship. Up, down, sideways, we all have something that we can teach one another. I think when I stopped moving and sat and observed this agency – and that was really a gift, to have that time to do that – that was when I recognized that the sum is greater than the parts. I know it sounds kind of cliché to say that, but you've got to focus on people as well as profits. I get a lot of questions from our team about “How big is big enough? How large are we going to grow?” It's really hard to put a concrete number to that for someone like me. It really is about we will be too big when we can't focus on our people and also maintain a profit that allows us to grow. That's the best answer I can give. That's when I'll know that we've grown too large: when our culture and our mission start to suffer. ROB: That is so much the answer that I think is hard to learn and hard to articulate. Start with the mission. What is the mission? We actually had a situation where our team said, “We're too small to be the partner that we want to be for clients right now in every respect.” But that's part of the goal of the mission: to have a place to go to. If you're not doing it anymore, then you realize you're not on the mission and it's too big. LISA: That's really interesting. I know several companies here locally that have actually decided to downsize because they weren't able to provide what they felt was best. I applaud that. I'm at a stage in my career where it's really important to me to start giving back to younger professionals, and one of the things I tell the people that I mentor is to really understand how you define success. Success doesn't have to be creating a company that gets bought and you're suddenly a millionaire. For some people, that's exactly what success looks like. But for other people it really is having a tight, small team and staying in your lane and providing the service that is meaningful for you and allows that personal satisfaction. I think generationally, that is starting to change. I think the younger generation gets the fact that there needs to be some personal satisfaction and that the career ladder is not maybe as important as it used to be, and the focus on personal growth. That's something that, again, talking about listening, we try to understand as people come on board. What is your vision of success? What is your end goal? If you want to go from production designer to designer to art director to creative director, if we know that, we can help provide a better career for you and also know that you are interested in growing with us. But you know what? If you want to come in and do your job effectively, day in and day out, there is absolutely room for that as well, and we're going to try to keep you challenged. That's something as an industry I think marketing and advertising needs to come to terms with: people that just want to come and do a great job every day are still so valuable to the organization. ROB: Yeah, it's a very timely both challenge and opportunity. In this time, I think a lot of people have reconsidered what kind of role they want to do, and when and where. People who want to max out compensation can play that game, and some people who want to do meaningful work can play that game, but they might want to do it differently from how they were doing it let's say two years ago. LISA: Yeah, it's a totally different way to think about business, and that can be a challenge, to be that kind of flexible organization. And again, there are very large agencies that are doing it really well. It just depends on where you want to go and what your definition of success is. But I think to your point, it also is really important that we change the business mindset to fit the people that are coming into it. ROB: Lisa, when people want to find you and connect with you and Well Done Marketing, where should they go to track you down? LISA: Well, they'd better go to the web, because I just said that's where everybody starts. [laughs] The nice thing about our name is it's really searchable. Welldonemarketing.com is our address. If you're in Indianapolis, we say our door is always open. We're right next to a Mexican restaurant with great margaritas, so you can come and see us too. ROB: That's wonderful. I do recommend a visit to Indianapolis. I've enjoyed some time there, for certain. Thank you so much, Lisa, for coming on the podcast and sharing your journey and the story of Well Done. LISA: Thanks, Rob. It's been a really great discussion. ROB: Be well. Thank you. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Getting rejected never feels good but it's how you grow, get empowered, and find The Guardian of Your Soul! This week Lisa and Benjamin talk about why rejection hurts so much and how you can not only recover from it but reframe it in a way that will work in your favor. They discuss how not to become a victim after being rejected, how you can lead with love and grace as you reject others, and why you need to let ghosters move on to haunt somewhere else, instead of chasing after them! Need some extra encouragement? Lisa shares how she faced rejection and dealt it out, while going on 96 first dates before she met the love of her life and how she realized that getting turned down is just like the nature of a bridge... Shaky. --But always worth the walk across.  What You'll Hear In This Episode:  Rejection is never about us, even if it feels very personal. You've been rejected - now what? How to take the high road, even if someone else has gone low. The amount of rejection we feel is in direct proportion to the amount of power we give others and external circumstances to affect our self worth. Why does rejection hurt so hard and open up so many wounds? Yes, rejection does hurt and there is no way around it! Accept it, feel the feelings, and move on with grace and self love. Lisa shares a story of seeing rejection as the “nature of the bridge”. It's going to shake but if you want to get across, you have to move forward.      Rejection is a healthy part of growth, personal evolution, and self actualization. Learn from themanwho purposefully got rejected for more than 100 days in a row. Did Lisa get rejected on the 96 first dates she went on before meeting Benjamin? You bet! If she can do it, so can you!No ghosting, here! How to reject another person with grace and empathy. You don't want to be with a person that ghosts! Let them go!  Continue On Your JourneyLisa Shield | YouTube | Facebook | Instagram | Book a Call With Lisa Mentioned:Rejection Therapy  Quotes:When someone rejects you, even if they make it about you, it's about them”  - Lisa“You can't run away from rejection.” - Lisa“Every day is a stepping stone to love.” - Benjamin “Facing rejection is an intrinsic part of us learning to love ourselves.” - Lisa“You don't grow when you don't face things.” - Lisa“It's always your next move.” - Napoleon Hill 

We live in a fast-paced world, with more everyday demands. And we know that we need good health to keep up. Nutrition, exercise, and mindfulness are often hailed as important pillars. However, there is something even more fundamental for better health—sleep. Sleep ensures we can actually perform. With better sleep, we'll be living better lives. But, how many of us actually prioritise sleep?     Dr Kirk Parsley joins us in this episode to explain how sleep affects our lives. Poor sleep can significantly change our bodies and performance. He also shares that we can achieve good sleep through lifestyle changes. A better life is not about taking more supplements or using gadgets and tools; it's about creating new and better habits.  If you want to know more about the science of sleep and how sleep affects our lives, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how sleep affects our lives and why it is so fundamental to our health.  Understand that it's more important to change our behaviours and lifestyle rather than depending on supplements.  Discover the ways we can create the right conditions for better sleep.     Resources Get Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy here!  Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!  Listen to my other Pushing the Limits episodes:  Episode with Mark Divine Connect with Dr Kirk: Website I LinkedIn I Instagram I Facebook I Email  You can also get the free downloadable resource on decreasing stress before sleep here.   The Unbeatable Mind Podcast with Mark Divine Dr. Kirk Parsley - How to Supercharge Your Sleep Dr. Kirk Parsley on Sleep And Longevity Melatonin Supplementation with Dr John Lieurance in the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.     Melatonin: The Miracle Molecule by Dr John Lieurance Dr Harch's Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy America's Frontline Doctors How to save the world, in three easy steps. from Bret Weinstein's DarkHorse Podcast   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [03:28] How Dr Kirk Started Working on Sleep Dr Kirk used to work for the SEALs. Later on, he enrolled in the military's medical school. After getting his degree, Dr Kirk became the manager of a sports medicine facility for the military. Here, he worked with other medical experts.  Those in the military will usually lie to healthcare providers so they won't get excluded from work, but they tend to be more honest with Dr Kirk because they have worked with him before.  After testing for vitamin deficiencies and adrenal fatigue, Dr Kirk realised that many of his patients were taking Ambien, a sleeping drug.  After learning more about sleep, Dr Kirk realised that every symptom his patients were presenting could be explained by poor sleeping.  [17:31] Sleep's Various Cycles With a sleep drug, you are just unconscious and not sleeping.  Proper sleep needs to go through a repetitive pattern of deep sleep at the beginning of the night and then REM sleep by morning.  The different cycles are important since they affect our bodies in different ways.  Sleep can help boost your immunity and memory! Learn more benefits in the full episode.  [20:12] How Sleep Affects Our Lives If you don't give yourself time to recover, sleep pressure can accumulate and have progressively worse effects.  If you go to bed with high stress hormones, this can worsen your sleep. Poor sleep then leads to higher stress levels, and the cycle gets worse.  People who get poor sleep age faster, not just in appearance but also in their physiology.  Poor sleep can lead to protein structure breakdown, decreased blood supply, aged tissues, and more.  As we age, we also face the problem of not repairing as fast. This is how sleep affects our lives.  [23:56] The Foundation For Better Health We are often taught the basics of health are sleep, nutrition, exercise, and stress management.  However, these pillars cannot function without sleep as their foundation, emphasising how sleep affects our lives.  For example, exercise becomes counterproductive when you're sleep deprived because you're not recovering.  Poor sleep can also change your insulin sensitivity and gut biome, which changes your nutrition levels. Because of how sleep affects our lives, it should be our priority. Sleep deprivation is the fastest way to break someone down, this is why it's used as an interrogation technique.    [28:35] How Do We Sleep? We need eight hours of sleep a night. Make your sleeping routine simple. The more complex it is, the more likely you will fail.  First, convince yourself that sleep is important.  We are all born to sleep, and we don't need to learn how.  Before electricity, people used to fall asleep three hours after sunset. Tune in to the full episode to learn more about the neurochemical process of sleep.   [35:36] Creating the Right Conditions for Sleep During sleep, our senses still work, but they don't pay as much attention to external stimuli.  For our ancestors, the sunset will lead to decreased blue light, decreased temperature, decreased stimuli, and increased melatonin.  Better sleep is just creating these conditions in our environment.  If we take melatonin, we should be careful to take only small amounts.  [39:20] Melatonin Supplementation Some have argued that melatonin supplementation does not downregulate our brain receptors, but there are no definitive studies on this yet.  In fact, measuring melatonin is difficult due to its quantity and concentration in each part of the brain.  It's okay to take melatonin supplements but not in physiologic amounts.  [45:15] Can We Reverse Aging? You need to understand your genetics and what ratios will work for you.  While good habits and supplements can improve your overall health, we don't know if it undoubtedly reverses age.  Our bodies are more complex than we think. Shorting yourself two hours of sleep can change over 700 different epigenetic markers.  We can only describe biology. We don't know how to manipulate it most of the time.  Dr Kirk also shares his experience with hyperbaric oxygen therapy in the full episode.  [1:03:36] Paradigm Shifts in the Medical Industry There is a lot of dishonesty in both the media and the medical industry.  Many doctors and medical experts have been silenced on potentially better cures, especially during this pandemic.  Western medicine is effective in treating the sick, but it doesn't keep people from getting severely sick in the first place. A lifestyle change is more important than taking supplements.  [1:12:22] The Importance Of Behaviour Change  People often don't want to work on their behaviour because taking medicine is easier.  We also need to be aware of how the food industry is tapping into our addictive mechanisms to keep us eating more.   Caffeine consumption can also ruin our sleep. More than 200 milligrams can give the opposite effect of staying awake and alert.  Learn exactly how sleep affects our lives, together with caffeine and sugar consumption, when you listen to the full episode. [1:19:40] Widespread Impressions on Sleep and How It Affects Our Lives People have grown to believe that sleep is for the weak and lazy.  This belief also impacts our children, especially since they are still developing.  Losing two hours of sleep can decrease testosterone and growth hormone by 30% and increase inflammation by 30%, among others.   Dr Kirk delved into researching how sleep affects kids after giving a lecture for American kids overseas to professionals in the school system. Kids' brains are still developing. The prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that allows us to simulate things, experiences a shift during adolescence. [1:26:34] How Sleep Affects Our Lives as Kids Dr Kirk delved into researching how sleep affects kids after giving a lecture for American kids overseas to professionals in the school system. Kids' brains are still developing. The prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that allows us to simulate things, is formed during adolescence. Furthermore, adolescents also require more sleep because of a shift in their circadian rhythm. Requiring kids to do more with less sleep interferes with their development. [1:31:40] How Sleep Affects Our Lives When We are Sick A new field in medicine called chronobiology is studying how sleep deprivation precedes any psychiatric disease or psychological flare-up. An Ivy League hospital managed to get their patients off medication by regulating their circadian rhythm and chronobiology. [1:34:34] It's More Than Switching Things On and Off Medications can be difficult to get off because they have too many side effects.  For example, most antidepressants are not just working on serotonin. Instead, they affect several neurotransmitters as well.  Physiological doses are artificial and can cause you more trouble.  Learn how sleep medication and affects GABA receptors that slow down the brain when you listen to the full episode. [1:41:17] Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy Dr Kirk discusses how cavemen took around three hours after the sun went down to fall asleep. In the present day, what can people do in those three hours? To fall asleep, stress hormones need to come down due to lifestyle. Dr Kirk's Sleep Remedy involves getting the proper ratios of substances. His product comes in the form of tea, stick pouches, and capsules.  [1:46:27] Dr Kirk's Final Advice Change your environment by decreasing blue light and stimulation.  Learn to slow everything down.  Just like how you slow everything down to get a kid to sleep, so should you do the same for an adult.   7 Powerful Quotes ‘You aren't actually sleeping when you're on sleep drugs. You're just unconscious. Your brain is dissociated, but it's not sleep.' ‘Often, if you're sleep-deprived, more is worse for sure. You don't really need to do any exercises. You just stay active until you've recovered, and then you can exercise again.' ‘Insulin sensitivity is decreased by 30%, just by losing two hours of sleep. One night with two hours of sleep. So you go from sleeping eight hours of sleep to six. If you're pre-diabetic, you're waking up diabetic.' ‘Even though I'm known for sleep, the hardest thing for me to coach people to do is to sleep.' ‘The most sleep-deprived years are the most horrible years of the brain development.' ‘Get rid of the blue light. Decrease the stimulation. Lower your body temperature. That's sleep hygiene.' ‘Part of lowering stress is just slowing down your thinking. You can't work on your computer until 9:59 and get in bed in 10 and think you're gonna be asleep.'   About Dr Kirk Dr Kirk Parsley was a former Navy SEAL who went on to earn his medical degree from Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences (USUHS) in Bethesda in 2004. From 2009 to 2013, he served as an Undersea Medical Officer at the Naval Special Warfare Group One. He also served as the Naval Special Warfare's expert on sleep medicine.  Dr Kirk has been a member of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine since 2006 and consults for multiple corporations and professional athletes. He gives lectures worldwide on wellness, sleep, and hormonal optimisation. He believes that many diseases and disorders are unnecessary complications of poor sleeping habits. We can achieve the highest quality of life possible by changing this habit problem.  Interested in Dr Kirk's work? Check out his website. You can also reach him on LinkedIn, Instagram,  Facebook, and email.       Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn how sleep affects our lives and what we can do about it. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of the Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hey everyone! And welcome to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have another amazing guest for you. I managed to get some incredible people. I have Dr Kirk Parsley with me. He is an ex-Navy SEAL, and also a medical doctor. A little bit of an overachiever, this one. He spent many years in the SEALs, an incredible man. He also was involved with the first sports medicine rehabilitation centre that was working with the SEALs, an incredible expert on sleep. And that's what we do a deep dive into today. We also talk about hyperbaric oxygen therapy. We also go into areas about the current state of the medical system, one of my favourite topics. And I hope you enjoy this episode. It's really, the most important thing is around sleep.  Sleep is something that all of us, I think, are underestimating its importance. And that this is the biggest lever, not food, not exercise, not meditation, not mindfulness, not anything else. Number one of all leverage points is sleep. So how the heck do you get enough sleep? What is enough sleep, and how to get it is what this episode is about.  Before we head over, I just want to remind you we have Boost Camp coming up. This is our eight-week live online program. There, Neil Wagstaff and I, my business partner and longtime friend and coach are doing. And we're going to, if you want to come and hang out with us live every week and learn everything about upgrading your life, basically, your performance, how to optimise all areas of your life, then we would love you to check the information out, head over to peakwellnessco.nz/boostcamp.  On that point, if you're also interested, come and check out our flagship program, which is our epigenetics program, where we look at your genetics, and how to optimise those specifically, all the areas of your life: your food, your nutrition, your exercise, your mood, and behaviour, your hormones, all these important areas, specifically to your genetics. One-on-one time with us and help us to understand everything about your genetics. It's an incredible platform and amazing AI technology behind us. And we'd love you to check that out.  Go to peakwellnessco.nz/epigenetics. Or reach out to me if you didn't get that. We will also have the links down in the show notes, if you want to just click over to that. Or you can just head over to my website, www.lisatamati.com. And hit the work with us button for our programs listed on there as well. So without further ado, now over to Dr Kirk Parsley.  Well, hi, everybody! And welcome to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have a superstar, who is a good friend of Commander Mark Divine, you may have heard previous weeks on my podcast. We have Dr Kirk Parsley with us today. Welcome to the show.  Dr Kirk Parsley: Thank you. I feel very welcome and happy to be here. I'm still here. I'm happy to be sharing this airspace with you or whatever it is sharing.  Lisa: I'm really super excited. I've heard you a number of times on Mark's show and just thought how hefty you're on because you're such an expert. We're gonna dive into a little bit into your background, but you're an absolute sleep expert. So I'm really keen to help my audience with their sleep, and their sleep patterns, and all of that good stuff. But before we get into that, we were just chatting about genetics and endurance. So, give us a little background. You've been a Navy SEAL. You've been in the military, in the naval military. So give us a bit of background on yourself, personally. Dr Kirk: Yes. So ironically, I actually dropped out of high school. I was a terrible student my whole life, didn't have any interest in school. And after you don't do well for long enough, you just convince yourself that you can't do well. And so you're just, ‘I'm just done. I can't do it'. I was always very physical, very athletic. Just fortunately, genetic lottery, I won, just be an athletic and strong guy. And it came pretty easy to me. But I worked hard at it because I didn't do school work. So when I dropped out of high school, to join the military and do the hardest training in the world. And that was what the SEAL training was supposed to be, as the toughest training in the world like, ‘Well, I'm gonna go do that.' So I went to do that.  This was a way long time ago. This is 1988. So, it was long before anybody knew what SEALs were. They didn't have the notoriety they have now for sure. And when I would come home from the Navy and tell people as I was a Sealer, like, ‘What do you mean, you work for SeaWorld or something? What do you do?' Kinda. So, I went through SEAL training, I would say I made it through SEAL training, I became a SEAL. That was pre-9/11, obviously. So we didn't have the combat that the SEALs of this generation do. So it's not really comparable. We were still mainly working in Southeast Asia doing police work and training other militaries.  I did three deployments. It was really the same thing over, and over, and over again because there was no combat. So you just did the same training, and then you deployed, and then came home, and you did the same training. And of course, I was like, ‘Maybe, I'll go do something else.' And I thought I would be—I was dating a woman who would become my wife. She was getting a master's in physical therapy. And I was reading her textbooks on deployment to make myself a better athlete. And I thought, maybe I could be a physical therapist. And so I started working, I started volunteering in a physical therapy facility in San Diego, called San Diego Sports Medicine Center. And it had every kind of health care provider you could possibly imagine. And this building, it's just this healthcare Mecca. It's the most holistic thing I've ever seen to this day.  I decided pretty quickly, I didn't want to be a physical therapist, but I don't know what else I wanted to do. But I got to follow the podiatrist around, and acupuncturist, and massage therapists, and athletic trainers, and conditioning coaches, and the orthopedist, and the family practice, and the sportsmen. I just got to follow them around and see how everybody worked. And a group of young doctors there, who were probably only five or six years older than me, and they were saying, ‘Well, you should go to medical school.' And I was like, ‘Pump the brakes, kiddo. I didn't even graduate high school. I'm not getting into medical school.' And then the senior doctor overhears the conversation. He comes out of the office. And he says, ‘Kirk, the question isn't, “Can you get in?” The question is, “Would you go if you've got in?”' And I said, ‘Of course, I'd go.' So, well, there you have it. So, he sort of shamed me into it/  I studied hard and got really good grades. And then when it came time to apply for medical school, this was pre-Internet, so you had to go to the bookstore and get your book review and look and see what schools are competitive for. And when I was going through one of those books, I found out that the military had their medical school. The military was a closed chapter in my mind. I'd done that. That's something that I figured I'd always do in my life. But it was never meant to be my whole life. And so I had done that. I was, I figured I was done. But I was already married and had kids. And I was like, ‘Well, the military will pay me to go to medical school. Or I can pay someone else to go to medical school and my wife can work while we're in medical school.'  I made enough to support my family and go to medical school for free. And then to pay off in the military's, they'll train you to do anything. You have to give them years of service and your job. So once you finish your medical training, you have to be a doctor for the military for eight years. And so I figured, ‘I'll get back to the SEAL teams, I'll go pay something back to the community that helped me, was hugely formidable in who I became in my life.' And went back to the SEAL teams, really well-prepped to do sports medicine and orthopedics. And I knew quite a bit about nutrition, and performance, and strength and conditioning. I was pretty sure I had the exact pedigree. When I got there, they had just gotten the money to build a sports medicine facility, which was actually their vision was exactly what I told you that I worked in in college. That's exactly what they wanted to build. I'm like, ‘I got this.' So they put me in charge of building this out. And I was a significant part of us hiring everyone we hired. So we hired our first strength and conditioning coach, our first nutritionist, our first PT, our first everything.  We built our own sports medicine facility. And then orthopedics was coming through every week, and they had to do rounds there. And we'd have pain rounds, pain management rounds come through. We had an acupuncturist coming through. And we hired all these people from the Olympic Training Center, and professional sports teams, and the best colleges. And so, we had all these brilliant people who knew way more than I did about what they do.  Lisa: So you went from there to there.  Dr Kirk: Yeah. And so at that point, I was the dumbest person around, right? Because we had all these experts in every little niche that I knew this much about. We hired experts who knew that much about. And so in the military, when you're the dumbest guy, they put you in charge, right and say, ‘Well, you manage this,' right? And so, I'm managing all these people who know more than I do, however that works. But my office was in this facility that we built.  The SEALs are a lot like professional athletes in that you put them on a bench, so to speak, right? Because they're injured, they need some help. So they can't work. It's the worst thing. Worst thing. So when they see a health care provider, they just lie because they don't want to be— Lisa:  They don't wanna be taken out.  Dr Kirk Parsley: They will take money out of their pocket, and go into the city, and find a doctor to treat them so that the doctor at work doesn't know, so they don't get put on the sideline. But because I was a SEAL, and there were still a lot of SEALs at the SEAL team. It was close enough to my time. There are still a lot of SEALs at the team who I worked with, and I trained with, and deployed with. And so they knew me. And I had a good reputation. And so they trusted me, and they come in my office and they say, ‘Let me tell you what's going on with me.'  They reported this litany of symptoms that didn't have any pattern that I could recognise. And so they were saying that their motivation was low, that they're very moody, that they couldn't concentrate. They're super forgetful. Their energy was low. Their body composition was shifting. They felt slower, and dumber, and colder. None of them were sleeping very well. They're all taking sleep drugs. They had low sex drive. They had a lot of joint pain, a lot of inflammation. And I didn't have the slightest idea. I'm like, ‘And I know it sounds like you're obese and 65. But I'm looking at you and you're not. So I don't know what's going on.'  I just started testing everything I could possibly test. I tested literally 98 blood markers. They were giving 17 vials of blood. Now just shotgun approaches, test everything, and see what's abnormal. And I started seeing some patterns. And they had really low anabolic hormones, so the DBTA, and testosterone, and dihydrotestosterone, pregnenolone. All of that was low. They really have high inflammatory markers. They really had poor insulin sensitivity for how healthy I knew they were, and how well they ate, and how much they exercised. But it's still within the normal range. But it wasn't. Everything was in the normal range. But everything that should be really high was just like barely in the normal range. And everything that should be really low, it's just barely inside of that range. They didn't have a disease. And I was a medical doctor, so I had learned how to treat disease, then they didn't have disease. So I was like, ‘I don't know. What am I going to do?' So that led me to having to train with outside providers. And fortunately, at that time, the SEALs did have the reputation. They'd already done all these amazing things. This was in 2009. So, I think they'd already shot Bin Laden and at that point. So I could call anybody, right? I'd watch somebody's TED Talk, read their book, I'd see them lecture. And I'll just call them and say, ‘I'm a doctor for the West Coast SEAL team. Could I come train with you? Can I consult with you? Can I ask you some questions?' And everybody was generous and said, ‘Absolutely'. So I get to learn a lot really quickly. I take a lot of leave from work and just go sit in these guys' clinics for four or five days. And just pick their brain, go see patients with them, and take notes, and learn. And then I just call them every time I have a question. And I just got to learn really quickly. It's like this team of experts who knew everything about the alternative world.  I was trying to treat people for adrenal fatigue. And I was trying to treat people for vitamin and mineral deficiencies, which are obvious from what was going on. And I couldn't quite figure out what it was. And about 100 patients into it, and probably after 30 guys came in, I could have told everybody, they could just sit down. I'll tell you what you're going to tell me. I could have just just route it off; it's so similar. And about 100 guys into it, embarrassing that it took so long, but I remember this guy telling me that he took Ambien every night. What do you guys call it? Stilnox, I think, right?  I was married to an Aussie, so I know a lot. I mean, I know you're not an Aussie, but I know a little bit about your world, as in your language. And I remember putting a note in the margin, ‘Seems like a lot of guys take an Ambien.' Then I go back through everybody's records, 100% of the guys who had been in my office were taking Ambien. So I thought, ‘Well, maybe that's an issue, right?' So, let me go look at the side effects of Ambien. And it was a fairly new drug. And the pharmaceutical industry, they get to cherry-pick their data. So they were like, ‘Oh, it's the safest drug ever. There's nothing, no problems.' And I'm like, ‘I don't quite believe that.'  Unfortunately, like every other doctor in America, I didn't know anything about sleep. I never had a single class on sleep in medical school, didn't have the foggiest idea what should be happening. I knew what you called a mechanism of action on this drug, which means molecularly what does it do. Well, it binds GABA receptors and has an effect called GABA analog, and benzodiazepines are the same, things like Valium. And so that's about as much as I knew, Well, what is GABA doing? What is GABA supposed to do? And then you can't really understand that without understanding what's actually going on in sleep.  Then, I had to learn about sleep physiology. And what's supposed to happen during sleep? And what are the normal shifts and changes? And what does that do? And if that doesn't happen, what effects do you get? So after studying quite a bit, I figured out the general Occam's razor principle of the thing with the least assumptions is, literally, every single symptom that these men told me about, could be explained by poor sleep.  Now, I didn't think that it would be, right? I wasn't naive, but it could have, then, right? So if this was definitely the most powerful thing, because being a Western doctor I wanted to give them Cortef and raise their cortisol. I wanted to give them testosterone and raise their testosterone. I wanted to get like, I wanted to give them medication to improve their insulin sensitivity. I wanted to just go in there and do it. But I couldn't do that, right? Because you can't give SEALs medication that they're dependent upon. Because then, what if they go out on the field, and they don't have their medication, they can't do their job and it's a waste. So that puts people on the bench, that disqualifies people. So I couldn't do that.  I had to figure out, well, what else can I do? So like I said, sleep seemed like the unifying theory. So let me see about that. And this was right around the time that everybody was catching on to the important vitamin B3. And that was associated with poor sleep. So, I tested all my guys. Every one of them had low vitamin B3. So I'm like, ‘Yeah, I'm going to give them vitamin B3. I'm going to be a hero. Everyone is gonna love me. I'm the best doctor ever.' And it helped a little bit. But it wasn't everything.  Like I said, I had this epiphany with this sleep drug. And once I learned enough about the sleep drug, you aren't actually sleeping when you're on sleep drugs. You're just unconscious. Your brain is dissociated, but it's not sleep. Because sleep has to have, as one of its criteria, you have to have this predictable sleep architecture. You have to be going through these sleep cycles that take you through these different stages. And a particular pattern is repetitive, and it's primarily deep sleep in the beginning of the night, and almost exclusively REM sleep by morning, and you have to do that transition.  If you don't do that, then it's not sleep. It can be partially sleep, if you're just getting poor sleep. But I was having these guys do sleep studies. And they were coming back with 99.9% of their sleep study being stage 2 sleep, which is just the transition. It's what we call a transitional sleep phase. So it's not deep sleep or REM. So they weren't really getting any of the benefits of sleep. And of course, that's an oversimplification. They're obviously getting something, or they'd be dead. But we don't know what they're getting.  That's all we know is that healthy sleep does this, and when you go through these cycles, we know these things happen. Like when you're in deep sleep, we know that's when you're the most anabolic, and you're secreting your anabolic hormones like growth hormone, and testosterone, and DHEA is being ramped up, your immune system's being ramped up. We know this happens. And then we know in REM sleep, what's going on in the brain: the physiological changes, forming more durable neural tracks, that neurological memories, shifting things from working memory into long term memory, pruning off useless information, these little buttons that grow on the side of your nerves that are starting to bud new information. You're like, ‘I don't need that.' You clean up all that. You get rid of weak products and you get the brain working better.  The whole purpose of going to sleep tonight is to prepare myself for tomorrow, right? Whatever I do today, that's what my brain and body are gonna think it needs to do tomorrow. It's gonna use today as a template to try to make me better tomorrow at doing what I did today. And if I don't get enough sleep, if I don't get to restore, I still have to do tomorrow. And how do I do that? Well, I do it the same way you do anything. I'm stressed out. I use Marinol and a bunch of cortisol and DHEA. And I start robbing all my nutrients for my cells. My blood glucose is going up, I'm getting fuel sources that way, epinephrine and norepinephrine stimulate my brain and my tissues to be able to get energy where there's really no energy there. And then I'm going to bed with these really high stress hormones, which are supposed to be low when I sleep, and then I'm trying to sleep with high stress hormones. Then, I get worse sleep. Then, I need more stress hormones tomorrow. And that's what breaks people.  In fact, when you see somebody who doesn't sleep well for even six months, they look so much older. ‘Why does he look old? That doesn't make sense. Is it just because they're tired? Is it tired old?' But if you think about it, you're born into this contract. You're born into this contract; you can't get around. It's just like you're born knowing you're going to die, 100% certain you're going to die. There's also this other contract that certainly is your body ideally worked for about 16 hours, and it needs eight hours to recover. That's the way it works. That's what you're born into. There's small variations there. But obviously, you can't get around that.  If you don't get those 8 hours, you didn't recover from those 16 hours. And so if you think about it logically, obviously, when you're a kid, you need more sleep. So it's not a great example, when you're really young. Kids actually sleep a lot more than eight hours by and large, but you see them actually getting better every day, right? They're growing. They're getting smarter. They're getting more coordinated. You can see that every day. But if you think about, say, like, once you hit 25, and your brain's fully formed, and everything's static. If you could recover 100% every night, and wake up the next morning as good as you were that other morning, you wouldn't age, right? There would be no aging because you would have recovered 100%.  Lisa: It's very important, yep.  Dr Kirk: Everything that you're deficient in, if you're missing 10%, you're going to age that 10%. And if you're missing a little more, you're going to age faster. So when you see people who haven't been sleeping well for a year, they are literally older because they've been recovering less and less every night. So yeah, there's a breakdown in their protein structure. There's decrease in their blood supply, their peripheral vascularisation. Their tissues are aging. There's a buildup of waste products that aren't getting out, and that's toxic. And that's damaging the mitochondria and forming more senescent cells, and all these other things, they're building up. And every marker that we have, even genetic marker, when you look at your children and linked methylation on the genes. Every marker, they look older. And then when you look at them, they look older. That's why.  That's really what aging is. It's really just the absence of being able to recover 100% every night. And as we get older, we just don't repair as fast. And that's, unfortunately, when most people quit sleeping as much. And now that's double whammy there. You're getting twice the aging effects that way. And there's no reason to sleep less when you're old. It's typical, but it's not something you have to do. I've had 84-year-old women who haven't slept more than 4 or 5 hours in 20 years, and I get them to sleep eight hours a night.  Lisa: I've got one over there who's rustling around, walking around behind me. She's 80 years old, nearly. Hey, mum. And she's struggling with sleep in the early morning hours. And therefore, you know her memory and things. So I want to pick your brain on that. Can I just slow you down a little bit because we just covered a ton of ground here. Dr Kirk: You just asked me about myself, and I just couldn't stop. Lisa: No, but you were on an absolute roll. So I didn't want to interrupt you because there was so many things, but my brain's just going like, ‘There's so many questions!'  Dr Kirk: That was just meant to be an overview.  Lisa: That was an overview. Now can we dive deeper into some of the weeds because now I understand why you've become, classically, the sleep expert because obviously that was the biggest leverage. In other words, this is the biggest leverage point that you see. When we think of the SEALs, we think of the SEALs as being these gods of amazingness that can do everything. But what you're saying is like these guys are pushing their limits: endurance, and in fatigue, and all things like that. And so they're going to be the Canaries in the Gold Mines in a way because they're going to be coming up against the limits of everything.  For you to say, as an ultra marathon, so I've come up against the limits in certain ways, like with sleep deprivation. And I sort of understand some of the things now that you were talking about. So you've ended up finding out that this is probably the biggest leverage point in anybody's life, basically, for their health is their sleep. So people, take a bit of a grip on that one. It's not necessarily the food or nutrition, it's the sleep. Would you agree? Dr Kirk: When I first started lecturing, I used to say there were four pillars of health: sleep, nutrition, exercise. And then the fourth pillar is audience dependent. It could be mindfulness, stress medication, it could be community, whatever it is that controls your stress hormones, and your emotions, and your mood, and all that stuff. Then after a while, I shift to there's three pillars sitting on the foundation of sleep. Because if you take the sleep away, none of those are going to work. There's nothing you can do. In fact, if you exercise when you're sleep deprived, it's counterproductive because you're not recovering. And we all know that you don't actually get better when you exercise. You damage yourself when you exercise. Then when you sleep, you recover, and you come back stronger. When you deprive yourself of sleep, you change your entire gut biome, you change your insulin sensitivity. You change everything here. And now your nutritional status doesn't work anymore. And when you don't sleep well, as I said, you increase your stress hormones. So you can do the mindfulness training and all of that stuff, meditate and all that, but you're just going to bring yourself down maybe to where you would have been if you just slept well and didn't do any kind of training.  It's really the foundation for everything. And I say that all the time. It sounds hyperbolic, but I'm 100% convinced it's true. There's nothing that you can do that will, nothing that will break you faster than poor sleep, and poor and insufficient sleep. There's a reason we use it as an interrogation technique.  Lisa: Exactly. Yeah.  Dr Kirk: There's a reason we break people down, intentionally, this way because it depletes all your resources. It interferes with your brain function, your willpower, your problem solving, your speech, your ability to formulate plans, your motivation, your mood. Everything goes almost instantaneously with one night of lack of asleep. Never mind keeping somebody up for three or four days in a row. They're just a mess. They're just in input mode. They just want you to just, ‘Tell me whatever I have to do. I'd do it. Then I'll sleep. Anything I can do to get sleep, I'll do it.' You don't have to rip people's fingernails out of stuff. You just deprive them from sleep.  Conversely, there's nothing that will improve the quality of your life and your performance faster than sleeping. Well, if you're an inadequate sleeper, which most people are. They don't even know they are. Everybody has these 30-day challenges and 60-day challenges. I'm like, ‘I only need seven days.' Again, one week where sleep is your number one priority. And you do everything right, and you get eight hours of sleep, at least eight and a half hours in bed every night, and you're sleeping approximately eight hours a night. And give me that for a week. And then, if you're not convinced this the most powerful thing, go back to wherever you're going. But nobody's ever gone back.  Lisa: A lot of us, I can hear people saying, ‘Yeah, but I go to bed, and I can't sleep. And I wake up at 2 am. And my brain is racing and I've been told to do some meditation. And maybe it's my cortisol.' Let's look now because if we haven't got the message across now that sleep is the number one thing that you should be prioritising about everything that you do, we haven't done very well for the last half an hour.  How do we sleep? What foods do we need to eat before we go to bed or not eat? What supplements can we take? You've got your sleep remedy that we'll get into a little bit. What routine can I do to optimise? What light-dark cycles? All of these things that can be leveraged points for us in optimising our sleep. And how do we test that we're actually in that deep-sleep phase? What are one of the best tools that you've found to work that out? So that was a mouthful, but yeah. Dr Kirk: So the first thing we need to do is get away from that phonetic question right there, which is what everybody's going through in their heads up like, ‘What about this? What about that?' And so my job is to make this really simple. Because simple things we can do, and the more nuanced your plan is around sleep, the more likely it is to fail. And we're doing big, macro movements here. So the very first thing is, what you said, I think we've already covered. The very first thing is to convince yourself that sleep is the most important thing. And to make it your priority for at least one week to get everything going.  Now, when I say your priority, I mean the true meaning of that word. There's only one thing there's nothing else, that's the one, including raising your kids, and your dog, and your exercise routine, and everything else. The most important thing is to sleep. The most important thing for winning. If you aren't quite convinced yet go to PubMed, or go to Google Scholar, or something like this, then put in sleep and anything else you care about: being a parent, mood, dating, sex drive, athleticism, strength, endurance, concentration, memory, I don't care. Whatever it is you care about—strength and this, strength and business, strength and I don't care. Anything you want.  Read to your heart's content. It will convince you that the one good thing about sleep, in the sleep sciences, it's not actually controversial. There's no one out there saying, ‘Oh, you don't really need to sleep.' Everybody agrees. There's nuances and people are different. Everybody agrees you need about eight hours of sleep a night. And just convince yourself that is the most important thing. Once you're there, that's the most important thing.  After that, recognise, ‘Okay. I'm going to make this my number one priority.' Recognise that you're born to sleep. You don't need to learn; you need to unlearn some stuff, right? You're designed to do this. And this should feel good. You should enjoy sleeping. You should usually look forward to going to bed and waking up in the morning, like, ‘Man, I feel so much better. I'm ready to go do my day.' This should be as easy as selling sex but it's not. People resist this forever. I have no idea why. It's great. Why don't you like sleep? I've always liked sleep. So then you just think, ‘Okay, when did sleep go bad for humankind?' Probably in the last seventy years.  Lisa: Yeah, when we got electric light.  Dr Kirk: That's about it, right? It's only been, really since rural electrification, right? Since they got electricity out to everybody. That's really when it started. When you look back in America just 100 years ago, look at people's journals in the winter, they spent like 14 hours a day in bed. That's a certain thing they do. So if you think about it, and just say, ‘I know this is simple. I'm going to let myself fall into it.' And then I'll tell you, there's all the sleep hygiene. You can get on the Internet, and you can find, ‘Oh, do this. Drink a hot cup of tea. Drink milk. Do this. Make your room really cold. Make your room really dark. Make your bed really soft. Make your bed really hard. And get a white noise machine. Get rid of all the EMF.' A million people are going to tell you all sorts of different things to do. And I'll cut through all the BS, and then you can pick and choose. The real answer is all of that stuff works, to some extent. All of that's important to some extent. The way I work with clients is at least 95% of all the successes is from lifestyle. And then all these little gadgets, and your mitigation tools, and supplements, and all this stuff back, that's the other 5. It's 95% behavioural. So you just look back, how did we evolve to sleep? Nobody teaches people how to sleep, right? You're born as a baby; you sleep. So how did we sleep as adults in cultures 100 years ago? Well, when the sun went down, we fell asleep about three hours later, and we woke up around the time the sun came up. It was pretty much that easy.  Okay, so let's reverse engineer that a little bit. I think most people know that blue light is a stimulus for being awake. We don't truly have a sleeping program. If you think of it like software, we don't have any sleeping software. We just have lack of awakening software. So we have things that go on in our brain and body that make us still awake and make us interact with our environment. And then when you take those things away, we're in what we call sleep. The blue light, actually, has nothing to do with the vision. There's nerve cells in the back of your eyes. It senses blue light. That's all they do. And then they fire pathways back to the circadian pathway membrane, essentially. And then the pineal gland secretes melatonin. The melatonin is a hormone, the starter pistol. It initiates all these cascades. And then one of the cascades that it initiates is the production of this peptide called GABA, capital G-A-B-A, gamma-Aminobutyric acid. And what that does is it slows down the neocortex.  When you think of the human brain, the picture of the human brain, we all have that big, wrinkly, massive crescent shape. That's what we call the neocortex. And that is how we interact with the world, right? All of our senses get processed in that, and then all of our movement is processed from that, right? So when we're asleep, all that's really different with our sleep, about in a general sense, right? There's nuances in every neuron and every molecule. And then, in the neural sense, there's a barrier between us and our environment is how it's phrased. What it means is we aren't paying attention to our environment anymore. Our eyes obviously still work, right? You can turn the light and you can wake somebody up. Our ears still work, you can make your noise and wake somebody up. Our sense of touch still works. You can shake somebody. They can roll into something sharp, and their pain receptors will wake them up. Heat will wake them up. Cold will wake them. So we still work. Everything still works. We start processing it. We're not paying attention to it.  What helps us do that is GABA. So GABA involves neurons. A neuron has what's called a resting potential. So there's like an electrical current in here. And when you put in enough electrical current, it goes like this. And that neuron fires. And then, does whatever it does and forms pathways. Well, GABA lowers that. Now, it takes more energy to make that thing fire. And you can overcome this by just putting a lot of energy into the cells. So if you've ever been exhausted, woken up exhausted, didn't get enough sleep for whatever reason. Like, ‘I'm going to go to work. I'm gonna come home. I'm going straight to bed. I'm gonna sleep 12 hours a day.' And then your friends talk you into going out or you get a cup of a drink. You stay up ‘til midnight, ‘I feel fine.' And then you suffer again the next day, right? Because you just overcame that.  You can actually read about this because this still exists, believe it or not, they're still I think 35 or 45 pretty large communities around the globe that have never experienced electricity. And they just lived like hunters and gatherers. They go out. And the men go out and hunt. And the women pick, and nurture their kids, and weave. And just when you think of your caveman doing, they still live like that today. And we study these people. And we did actigraphy. So it's not true sleep, say. It's just movement to know when they're likely to be asleep. And what we find is, the sun goes down. Again, the blue light goes out of their eyes. It fires, the brain starts secreting melatonin that leads to a cascade of 365 billion other chemical changes in the brain, right? But that initiation has to happen. Once that initiation is going, one of the things it does is secrete GABA, increase GABA production in lots of regions of the brain that starts slowing the brain down.  The sun goes down. They don't have electricity, right? The best they have is a fire. So what else happens? Their body temperature goes down. So when the sun goes down and it is dark, we can't see well at night, we can't see very far. So there's way less stimulus, right? They don't have flashing lights. They don't have loud music. So there's not much to stimulate them. So they sit around a fire. Maybe if they're lucky, if not, they just stare around the dark, and they have some quiet, calm conversations, and then they drift off to sleep.  That's all sleep hygiene is. That's it. Those three things: decrease the blue light, decrease the stimulation to your brain, and drop your body temperature. You need a cool place to sleep. One of the things that you can do to speed these things up is to concentrate the right nutrients in your brain. If you are going to take melatonin and just take a very, very, very, very small amount. You just want to initiate. You don't want to put so much melatonin in your brain that your brain doesn't need to make melatonin because then you start running insensitivity to melatonin, and now when you take it away, you don't have, you're essentially melatonin deficient because you've downregulated the receptors, and your brain is not sensitive to melatonin anymore. Lisa: Can I just stop in the first, one second. Dr John Lieurance is his name and he was on the Ben Greenfield podcast, and he's written a book about melatonin. And he argued that melatonin, interesting work, doesn't downregulate when you take melatonin, and doesn't cause that downregulation. All the other hormones do. If we take testosterone, we're going to downregulate our own testosterone, if we take right whatever. He said that they didn't. And he was advocating in his book for actually, super-physiological doses of melatonin. Certainly when you're doing things like jetlag, or whatever you're trying to reset, but also for a raft of other ailments to help with many diseases. Have you heard of his work or? Dr Kirk: I'm familiar with him and his work.  Lisa: Yeah. What's your take on that? Because I was like, ‘I don't know.' Dr Kirk: So, I disagree, obviously.  Lisa: Yeah. That's what I want to know. Dr Kirk: But specifically, so what he's talking about, 90% of his work is about the antioxidant. Lisa: Yes. Is it an antioxidant? Yep.  Dr Kirk: The studies that he's quoting are saying that melatonin doesn't downregulate. We don't know for sure. It's like, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. The only way we would know is if we could actually drop a catheter into somebody's brain and sample their fluid in their brain 24 hours a day and study this over months. And so we can't say for sure. We can do animal models. Again, it's hard to quantify because from the time the sun goes down, which is about three hours before you'll fall asleep, to the entire time you slept, until the sun comes up, you're looking at somewhere between 11 and 12 hours. That entire time your brain will only produce five to six micrograms of melatonin.  Lisa: Tiny amount. Dr Kirk: So how do we study, right? It's really hard to study, and you think of it in a mouse model, how much smaller the quantities are we're looking at that point. And the concentration of melatonin in each region of the brain is not the same, it depends on some cells in the brain can actually be stimulated by melatonin. It's somewhere. It's different. And same with GABA. GABA doesn't go to every region of the brain because it can stimulate regions of the brain. But what we do know, so first, I always go with, we don't know anything. We have research that makes us believe certain things are likely to be true based on the best science we have right now. So we don't know anything. And I believe that to be true about everything in science. Just wait a week, it might change. But what we do know is that every other hormone does this.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Kirk: But if it doesn't do this, it's the only hormone in the body that doesn't. Pretty unlikely. But what we do know with 100% certainty is that it does downregulate melatonin receptors. Lisa: Right. Dr Kirk: It can take away melatonin receptors. If I normally have 10 melatonin receptors, and I go down to just having one, now even if I'm sprayed with melatonin, I only have one. And I have to have this supersaturation for this one receptor to do all this work. And if I go down to normal physiologic levels of melatonin and this one receptor, there's just getting an occasional melatonin coming by, I'm going to be, it's no different. It doesn't matter whether I'm not producing enough, or I don't have enough receptors, it's the same end result. You have to have melatonin binders stuffing pulled into the cell to have it function. Lisa: So can I ask one question there like, so for elderly, who, from what I understand, in my basic research on melatonin, is that their melatonin production goes down with age, and, therefore, they could benefit from melatonin supplementation. Is that a thing or? Dr Kirk: Yeah, I agree. And so what happens is that the pineal gland calcifies just like our arteries. And every vessel, everything in our body calcifies, right. That's sort of aging. Lisa: One of the majors.  Dr Kirk: And so it calcifies, and you do almost certainly secrete less melatonin, right? And again, the only way we would know is to drop a catheter into somebody's brain. But I'm not saying that you shouldn't take melatonin at all. I'm just saying you shouldn't take super physiologic. So his example of when you're speaking about the melatonin work earlier, right? His example is, well, this is a great antioxidant. Now, if I do these super physiologic amounts, there's all these benefits to it. Well, if I give you 10 times the amount of testosterone that your body ordinarily has, you're gonna feel fantastic. If I give you something that secretes a bunch of epinephrine and norepinephrine, like cocaine. And you have this huge rush of norepinephrine; you feel fantastic. And you're super productive, and your brain's really sharp. Does that make that a good idea? I don't think so. I don't deal with anything super physiologic.  Again, I'm the behaviourist, and 95% of all your health is going to come from re-approximating the way you revolt. This body takes hundreds of thousands of years to adapt to this planet. And now we're just like, ‘No, we're smarter. Like I'm a 35-year-old biohacker. I read a bunch of books. I know I can do it better than–” We know nothing about the body. Lisa: Can we all mean for people–we also know that people tend to die. If we wanted to extend our healthspan and their lifespan, but healthspan mainly, can we, with hormone replacement therapy, there's a raging argument: should you be on hormone replacement therapy, should you not? If you're wanting to optimise. Now, there's downsides. And you need to understand your genetics, and you need to understand all of those aspects.  There is benefits for us to taking testosterone or DHEA or all these things in the right physiological doses of, say, a 30-year-old, like, I'm 50 or 52, I want to be at the level that I was, say at 30–35. I understand my genetics, I know where my risk factors are. I can keep an eye on all of that sort of stuff. Can I all meet that so that I live and function longer? Because I think the core question here is how do we optimise? Yes, we've developed like cavemen but then they die at 70–80, as well. Can we extend that with the knowledge that we currently have? Dr Kirk: Well, so I don't ever promise anybody that I can make them live longer. I say, ‘You might live longer from this.' If you think about it, think about it this way: at first, we talk about what sleep does, right? And if we could catch up every night, we wouldn't age. So what are we doing when we're doing things like hormone-replacement therapy? We're doing metabolomics. And we're doing all sorts of supplementation around that, or we're doing artificial things like hyperbaric, and near-far IR sauna, and ice baths, and doing all these steps to stimulate the production of the thing.  Of course, now we have antibiotics, and we have all sorts of treatments to keep people from dying as young from certain diseases. So certainly, we should be able to either, probably add years to your life. But if not, definitely we can add life to your years, right? If you're going to die at 80 either way, one version of this, you could die hiking Mount Kilimanjaro, another one you're dying in a little chair in a nursing home. So I don't know.  The question is, even with the longevity work that people are doing, really smart guys like Sinclair and all these guys are doing all these things, and they're doing all these things with clearing senescent cells, we're doing all these things with peptides. And now I give my patients peptides for certain things. I don't know nearly as much about the longevity stuff as I'd like to. And we and we're reversing aging genetically, right? We're going in there and saying, ‘Actually, over the course of a year, with a lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of tries, a lot of modalities, really focusing on your lifestyle and doing everything. Ideally, we can actually, probably, reverse your genetic age a little bit.' Are we actually reversing age? I don't know, we made your telomeres longer. The increased the methylation on your genes, and those are markers for age, does that reverse it? We don't really know, right?  Lisa: We haven't been around long enough to work it out.  Dr Kirk: Right. It's like with omega-3s. If your omega-3s are this, then we know that certain things go this way. Well, but if we supplement your omega-3s, is that the same as you having that nutritionally. Or vitamin B3? Is that the same? We don't know. We're thinking that it probably is. And we're thinking if we're reversing the markers we know for genetic aging that's making you genetically younger. But maybe there's some totally different information in there on aging that we don't know anything about yet. That's possible, too.  I think from what I know about you, you probably agree with me. I think epigenetics is more important than genetics, anyway. You have certain genetics and you change half a dozen things about your day, and your epigenetics are totally different. If you short yourself 2 hours of sleep, you change 735 different epigenetic markers from just 2 hours. All your pro-inflammatory ones are the ones turning on, and all of your anabolic ones are the ones turning off. And again–  Lisa: That's still the biggest leverage point, isn't it?  Dr Kirk: It's still a crazy complex to think that you can decipher what 735 changes in epigenetics mean. We have some ideas of what certain things, how does all that work in synchronicity, but even though we're the smartest animal on this planet, we still have a very feeble mind. Lisa: We're still dumb.  Dr Kirk: When it comes to understanding the complexity of our bodies, we can't understand the complexity of the planet, much less our bodies. And life is just this amazingly complex thing. We don't have systems in our body. We divide the body up in systems as a way to learn it so that we can systematically learn and we can test about the learning, but the body doesn't work in systems. Lisa: I have such an issue with it, too. It's nothing like the way that the medical model breaks us all down. Dr Kirk: The reductionist model doesn't work for life. And if you think about it, most of biology is purely descriptive. All of it is, we've come up with better and better ways to test things and look at things, and then we can describe what's going on. We don't know how to manipulate it most of the time. If we do, it's really clumsy. And it's causing 500 other changes because we wanted to flip this one switch this way. Then what are the downstream effects? We don't know. We'll find out in like 30 years after 100,000 people go through this. It's really clumsy.  I don't know if can I make somebody live longer. I'd never make that claim. But can I make people look, feel, and perform better? Absolutely. I can do it all the time. And me, personally, like you're saying, I just approximate use. Their arguments, there are people out there saying, ‘Well, these hormones will cause this or that.' I'm like, ‘Okay. If high estrogen levels cause breast cancer, why don't young women get breast cancer? Older women, they're the ones who are getting breast cancer, why?' That thing with men and prostate cancer, giving them testosterone is gonna cause prostate. No, it's not. If that were true, then a 20-year-old would have prostate cancer, and a 60-year-old wouldn't, right? It's a lack of this. And I think breast cancer is a lot like prostate cancer. What we know with prosta

We all have something we want to pursue, a goal or an objective we want to reach. We might not always know what it is from the get-go, but as we go on, we can find what we value doing the most. Now, there may be obstacles in our paths, making it feel like our goals are but unachievable and improbable dreams. However, when you are pursuing what you value, nothing can stop you from achieving your destiny.   In this episode, world-renowned human behaviour specialist Dr John Demartini joins us to inspire you to start pursuing what you value. He shares advice and a range of wonderful stories on this topic. Learning about delegation can greatly help you with pursuing what you value. We also talk about the neuroscience of flow states and getting people to understand the quality of your work. If you're mulling over starting your journey to doing what you love, listen to this episode! 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Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn about delegation and how you can utilise it to make the most out of your job. Discover the two different flow states that come into play when you're doing what you love best. Listen to a variety of enlightening stories that show how pursuing what you value can change your life.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #198: How to Prioritise and Reach Your Goals with Dr John Demartini Connect with Dr Demartini: Website | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram | YouTube Check out Elon Musk's interview on 60 Minutes. A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights [04:21] Achieving the Improbable No matter what obstacles you face, you will get up again if you have a big enough reason. Each of us has a set of priorities. At the very top is our destiny, which is non-negotiable. When you're pursuing what you value, you'll continue regardless of pleasure or pain.  By delegating low-priority things, you can go on pursuing what you value.  [09:20] The Importance of Delegation As long as you're doing your top priority, something that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Delegation frees up your time so you can pursue something that makes more income. However, when you don't recruit the right person, you end up losing money because you're having to micromanage and getting distracted.  [14:07] Hiring the Right People  Do the basics, such as references and background checks. Dr Demartini specifically asks what applicants would do if they never had to work another day in their life.  If they don't answer something close to the job description, he turns them down.  Don't hire somebody who can't see how the job you're offering can fulfil their highest value. Tune in to the full episode to hear how Dr Demartini helped one of his applicants pursue what they value! [26:06] Job Security vs. Pursuing What You Value Dr Demartini shares a story about how he guided a young man to chase after his dreams. He sees this man eight years later, the owner of eight franchises. Many people stay in their jobs because of security. However, quitting work and pursuing what you value is your choice. Dr Demartini's recalls a time when he accompanied a ditch digger to work. He was so proud of his job, as he brings water—and life—to people. It doesn't matter if the job seems small, as long as you're pursuing what you value.  [44:30] Taking Pride in What You Do When your identity revolves around pursuing what you value, the higher your pride is in your workmanship. You'll excel in whatever you do, as long as you're pursuing what you value.  People who are pursuing what they value go beyond what is expected of them. Whether you start early or late, you can always begin pursuing what you value.  Master planning is a way to get there quickly. [46:26] The Neuroscience of Flow States There are two flow states. The manic flow state is a high that does not last long, as it is driven by the amygdala and dopamine. You get into your real flow state when you are pursuing what you value—something truly inspiring and meaningful.  In the real flow state, you're willing to embrace both pain and pleasure while you are pursuing what you value. Dr Demartini likens the two states to infatuation versus love. Infatuation is short-lived and only sees the positives; love endures even the negatives.  Manic flow is transient; real flow is eternal. [53:33] Finding the Middle and Paying for Quality You shouldn't get over-excited about good things and over-depressed about bad ones. Stay in the middle. Looking at the downsides isn't cynicism. It shows that you have grounded objectives. Dr Demartini's father, who is in the plumbing business, carefully considers all variables before taking on a project. As such, he charges more than competitors. People will be more willing to pay for your work once you explain what sets it apart from others. If you get defensive about your work, you start to sound arrogant. Instead, try to be informative about the value of what you offer. [1:03:32] Staying Stable and Flexible  Dr Demartini is neither excited nor fearful about the future.  He looks at both sides so that he does not become too elated or depressed. Emulating this can help you be stable enough to keep pursuing what you value. Over support leads to juvenile dependency, while challenges encourage independence.  Adapt and do what needs to be done. If you can't delegate it to others, learn to do it yourself.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode [05:34] ‘Nothing mortal, can interfere with an immortal vision.' [07:00] ‘There's wisdom in not doing low priority things; there's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you.' [23:18] ‘Don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want can help them fulfil their highest value.' [44:37] ‘The pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most.' [50:26] ‘Fantasies aren't obtainable, objectives are.' [54:31] ‘If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside.' [1:06:22] ‘People can be really resourceful if somebody doesn't rescue them.'   About Dr Demartini Dr John Demartini has been a public speaker for nearly 50 years. He is a world-renowned specialist in human behaviour, researcher, author, and educator. He empowers people from all walks of life by sharing his knowledge on self-development and financial wellness. One of his fields of interest is personal development where he has developed a curriculum of programs. One of his seminars, The Breakthrough Experience, uses his revolutionary techniques, the Demartini Method and the Demartini Value Determination Process.  If you want to learn more about Dr Demartini and his work, you may visit his website. You can also see him on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you were inspired to start pursuing what you value, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they too can be pushed to go after their passion. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of the Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: I want to welcome you back to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have Dr John Demartini. Now you may recognise that latter name. He's been on the show before. And he's definitely one that I want to have him back on again. He is an incredible teacher, and educator, and author of I don't know how many dozens of books. He's been working in the personal development in space for 50 years, I think. Incredible man.  I hope you enjoy part two of this very in-depth conversation about upgrading your life–how to grow your businesses. We talk about also how to reach your full potential. And what sort of things we put in our own way. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Dr John. Also, I would like to let you know we have a Boost Camp coming up. This is a, not a boot camp. It's all about upgrading your life. This is all about being the best version of yourself that you can be, upgrading everything in your life from your health fundamentals to things like sleep, and understanding your brain better your mood and behaviour. Lots and lots of science, and lots of information, and stuff that's going to be actually practical stuff that you can implement in your life to improve how you're performing your health, your vision and purpose in life. And aligning all of these things together.  I hope you'll come and join us. This is an eight-week program that is live with Neil Wagstaff and myself. Neil is my longtime coach and business partner. And he runs all the programs with me that we do with epigenetics, with running hot coaching, and so on. And he is an incredible teacher. I do hope you'll check it out. You can go to peakwellnessco.co.nz, peakwellness, p-e-a-k, peak wellness dot co dot NZ forward-slash boost camp, b-o-o-s-t-c-a-m-p. To find out more, and come and join us, it's going to be a fantastic writer and you're going to learn an awful lot and get to hang out with a whole bunch of people while you're doing it. So check that out.  I also like to remind you too, of our Patron program. We have a Patron program for the podcast to help us keep this on-air, keep us great content, to help us keep the mission going. If you're into doing that, please, for the price of a coffee or a month. Sorry, a coffee a month, you can be involved in this project. And you can also get a whole lot of exclusive member benefits for your troubles. So check all that out at patron.lisatamati.com, p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisa tamati dot com. Right. Now, over to the show with Dr John Demartini.  Hi, everyone. And welcome back to Pushing The Limits. I'm super excited to have an amazing name back again for a second round, Dr John Demartini. Welcome to the show, Dr John. It's fabulous to have you back again.  Dr John: Demartini: Yes, thank you for having me back.  Lisa: It's just–I was so blown away by our conversation last time. And I know you do thousands of these interviews and in the work that you do that you probably can't even remember what you talked about. But it was a real life-changing episode that ended up– we dived into some of your medical work earlier. We went all over the place with your breakthrough experience. I just felt like we didn't quite cover all the bases that I want to tap into your great knowledge.  Having you back again today, and today I thought we'd look at things like I want to dive into things like, ‘How do we achieve the impossible?' I've been doing a lot of work and researching around, what is it that makes incredible people incredible? And that they had the ability to overcome incredible odds and difficulties and obstacles in order to achieve some possible things. And I'm pretty much into a lot of the big thinkers out there. So I wanted to start directly if that's okay. How do we achieve the impossible, Dr John?  Dr John: Well, I don't know. Maybe that's a bit of a metaphor–the impossible is impossible.  Lisa: But yeah, it's a metaphor.  Dr John: Improbable, the improbable.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr John: When the why is big enough the hows take care of thems elves. When you have a big enough reason for doing something, no matter how many obstacles you face, you get up again. And there was an interview. There was an interview by a gentleman I think from 60 minutes with Elon Musk. And they asked him after having three launches explode back to back. ‘You ever think about giving up?' He looked at the guy and he says, ‘I never give up. I'd have to be incapacitated.' Meaning that his mission to go to Mars is too important for any obstacle that might arise to stop it. I would say nothing mortal can interfere with an immortal vision.  Each of us, as you know, have a set of priorities. And the very top, top, top priority is non-negotiable. It's where human sovereignty and divine providence come together, where you feel that it's impossible for you not to fulfil your true destiny. I feel that way with my mission of speaking. I just felt that that was my destiny when I was 17. And I've been doing it 48 plus years now, be soon 49 in a few months. So if you'd have a big enough reason for doing it, you'll see the challenges on the way, not in the way. It's like Edison, a thousand ways to that didn't work for the light bulb to get the light bulb. There was no option about getting a light bulb, he knew he would come up with an answer, he just kept, ‘Okay, that doesn't work. Okay, next. That one doesn't work, next.'  When things are lower on your value, you'll do it if there's pleasure; you'll stop doing it if there's pain. When something's tying your value, you'll do it regardless of pleasure or pain. And you'll see both of them on the way, not in the way. So there's wisdom in not doing low-priority things. There's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you. People who do that build incremental momentum that reaches an unstoppable state, an inertia that's unstoppable. That's the key to extraordinary things. And when it's truly aligned with your value, your identity revolves around it, you feel it's impossible for you not to do it. It's not an option; it's who you are. Lisa: So this involves looking at your values determination, how to sort out what your real– because I think this is where a lot of us come unstuck. We have lots of things we want to do, and we're curious about lots of things and have lots of passions, and it's sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, in order, distilling down that vision so that you're actually hyper-focused and being able to concentrate on the things that you need to concentrate on. I know that's something that I definitely struggle with, when you have so many things that you're interested in. But you're really right when you say like, for me, with my story with my mom, if you remember bringing her back from the mess of aneurysm, there was a non-negotiable. We were doing it, and I was going to get her back or die trying was the attitude that I went inwards. That means sacrificing whatever it took to get to that place. And then we do get there, you know?  Dr John: Well, the thing is not to pursue low-priority things, and to know what those are, and say and delegate everything other than what's important. I don't do anything but research, write, teach. Those are the three things I love doing. But it's all about educating people in human behaviour. So that's the one thing that is non-negotiable that I do. Then I delegate everything else away. That way, you don't have to be distracted and run down. What drains you is doing low priority things. Lisa: Yeah. And this is a lot– yeah, this is a lot that a lot of people, especially startup entrepreneurs, and people that are just getting there, finding your way, are struggling with: the whole delegation thing when they don't have a team around them. What sort of advice do you want to give to people who are at the beginning of their career and don't have a team yet around them to help do all those aspects of it that are draining the hell out of their lives? Dr John: Well, what you do is you ask the question, ‘How is doing this action temporarily until I can find somebody to delegate it to helping me fulfil my mission?' Link it to your brain. Reframe its words. You see it on the way, not in a way, with the knowing that you're going to delegate it. And then, it doesn't cost to delegate. It costs not to. As long as you're doing what's highest in priority that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Because you're releasing yourself to do the most important thing that produces the most income that produces more than the cost of the delegation, and that they can produce. And yet the person that would love to do that inspired to do that but doesn't have to be motivated to do that. They will spontaneously do it without even thinking about it, you can free yourself up. In 1982, end of 1982, I hired somebody to take care of my financial things: paying payroll, paying bills, bank reconciliations, all that stuff. Because I was sitting there in October of 1982. I was sitting there doing a bank balance, like, ‘What on earth am I doing?' I didn't want to do it. It was distracting, time-consuming. And while I was doing it, I didn't want to think about clients because it was interfering. I needed to get this done, and I'm pushing clients away. I freed that up, and I have not gone back, nor even seen a chequebook. That's 1982. Lisa: Gosh I would love that.  Dr John: I can't even tell you what a chequebook in my company looks like. Lisa: Or accounting or any software.  Dr John: I don't have any of that stuff. I have somebody that does that. That's their job. I– because that's a 20 to $50 an hour job. And why do I value my time? Well, I can make thousands per hour, and tens of thousands per hour. Lisa: But what about the people that can't make the ten thousands of per hour or the thousands per hour, and there's still a net, they're still in taking that leap into getting the first person in the team on board and the second person. I think there's a lot of people in that, jumping from, say, the $100,000 mark to the million-dollar mark of a turnover in a company where it's chaos. I think it's chaos beyond that as well. But it's that getting the initial, taking that risk when you don't have a solid income yet, and yet, you're taking a risk on hiring a business manager or hiring whatever, even assistants. Dr John: If you have a clear job description and you have a clear actions that you can do that can produce more per hour than having to do those things, and you can see, ‘Well, I'm doing five hours a day doing trivial. If I had those five hours, could I go out and close deals?' If you're willing to do that it doesn't cost, ever cost, to hire people.  Lisa: Yeah. So it's a mindset shift, really?  Dr John: Yeah. Because what happens is you think, well, if you're not going to be productive, and they're now, you're just going to pay somebody to do something you were doing, and you're not going to go produce more per hour than it's going to cost. But it frees you up to do something that closes a deal or makes a bigger deal. Makes more income. You're insane not to do it. Now, in my situation, I saw that if I was out doing presentations and taking care of clients, I can make more than tenfold what is going to cost, 20-fold to 100-fold what I was going to pay somebody to do it. It's a no-brainer.  It doesn't cost to hire somebody. Unless you do it ineffectively. You are somebody who doesn't love doing it, you're pushing him uphill, is not inspired by it, and you have the skill by it, and you're micromanaging him and you're having to distract yourself, and you're not doing the thing that produces. That's why it costs money. Not because of delegation, but inadequate delegation. Lisa: So in other words, recruiting the right people to your team is a huge piece of this and getting the right— So what are some of the things that you do when you're analysing somebody to take on into your team? What are some of the processes that you go through from an entrepreneurial standpoint? Dr John: Well, I do all the basics: references and checks and those things. But I just sit them down when I meet them if they get through the screening. I sit down with them. I said, ‘If I was to write a check right now for $10 million and handed it to you, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do with your life?' If they're, they don't say what the job is or close to it, I say, ‘Thank you very much.' I walk away.  Lisa: Right? Because they're not. That's not the key thing.  Dr John: That's not their dream. Can I share an interesting story? I don't think I shared this before. Sorry. If I had, just tell me, cut me off. When I was in practice many years ago, I was hiring a manager, and I was scaling up and delegating more and more. We were down to two people's potentials: one was a woman, one was a man. And the man was in for that evening, about five o'clock. I worked till six, usually, but at five, I was telling my patients, five o'clock, this gentleman comes in. He had passed much of the things I thought. But he came into my office. He had a little briefcase, is about 54, looks like a violator jet, this guy. He comes in, sits down on the edge of his chair, and he says, ‘Wow, this is a great opportunity. I've had the opportunity to work with your company would be fantastic. I'm awe-inspired.' I said, ‘Great. Hope you don't mind. But I just got a few questions.' And I had a check. This is back before I got rid of my checks. I got a check that my lady at the front organised. I had the check in front of me. And I said, ‘Your proper name is?' I put his name on the cheque. I wrote 10 million US dollars.  Lisa: It was a real piece?  Dr John: I didn't sign it, but I just put it there. I made sure he saw it. Because any facade he might have, if he saw a check with $10 million on it, his name on it, that's going to distract him. Because the infatuation of that's going to throw any facade that he might try to put on me, ultimately. So I said, ‘If I was to hand you this cheque,' and I showed him the cheque. ‘And I gave you $10 million upfront, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do?'  Lisa: What did he say?  Dr John: And he leaned back in his chair like this. He goes, he relaxed a second. He goes, ‘Wow, if I had $10 million. What would I do? I would manufacture furniture. I have a hobby. I love making furniture. I'd make furniture and open up furniture companies.' I said, I got up. I said, ‘Thanks very much.' He stood up and he was like, ‘What?' He said, ‘Well, did I get the job?' I said, ‘No.' ‘Do you mind if I ask why?' I said, ‘Very simple. I'm hiring you for a management position. You said if you had $10 million, you'd love to make furniture. If you're a great manager, how come you haven't managed your life in such a way where you can do what you love?' He just looked at me and he just paused because that's a very good question. ‘And I have nothing I could say, except, you just woke me up.' I said, ‘Thank you,' and I escort him out.  I watched him walk with his head down slowly to his car and sit in his car for a few minutes to just process that. He's like going, ‘Whoa. I thought I'm looking for a job. I'm enthused, I'm really excited, everything else. And I just got slammed with a reality check of what was really important to me. And the real truth was, is I love making furniture.' So he sat in that car, and finally slowly drove off and we ruled him out. We ruled the girl out. So we had to go through another round. Yeah.  Lisa: And so this is part of the process.  Dr John: Three weeks had gone by. And all of a sudden my assistant said. ‘Dr Demartini, there's a gentleman here a few weeks ago that was looking for a job. He's back.' ‘Alright, okay.' He said, she said ‘Should I just sent him back in?' I said, ‘Yeah.' I come down to the same office, same thing, comes in. I'm sitting in the same place, you sit in the same place. But this time, he walks in with a paper bag, a big paper bag, large paper bag with handles on. He said, ‘Dr Demartini,' shook my hand. He said, ‘Dr Demartini. I was here a few weeks ago,' I said, ‘Oh. Yeah, I remember you.' He said, ‘You changed my life.' I said, ‘How so?' He said, ‘When I was enthusiastic looking for the job, I've been looking for a job for three months. I didn't find one. I thought when you said, if I'm such a good manager, how come I haven't managed my own life? And you nailed me. I was a bit depressed after that, and I had a soul searching, and I had a conversation with my wife. Part of the reasons I was taking on jobs is for security instead of doing what I really love to do. And so after that conversation, I told my wife that and I said, “If I was to go out and try to build my own company in furniture manufacturing, would you endure the, whatever we go through to get there?” And she hugged him, and she says, “That's what you've always wanted to do. We'll make ends meet. We'll find a way.”'  He started his company. He started telling people he's there to make furniture and he started making pieces of furniture. He made a bed, and he made a dresser, and he started making furniture and stuff. He also made it available that he could do interior in homes that were being built. He started letting people know in his network. So he's back in my office three weeks later, and he told me that that's the best thing ever happened to his life. He says, ‘I've already got commissioned $5,400 worth of product with the furniture, and that's in three weeks. I'm on track, probably for making $10,000 to my first month now. And that's more than what I was probably going to get paid.'  I said, ‘Congratulations.' And this is what he said to me. He said, ‘You have no idea how much more energy I have, how inspired I am. I don't care about how many hours it is I'm working. I'm staying up, and I'm a different man. I'm loving it. I'm in, I now understand what an entrepreneur is, a bit.' And he said, ‘But this is what I want to do. Because you gave me such a gift. When I came in your office, I noticed the wood. Because you filter with your polar nuclei of your diencephalonic thalamus. You put, you filter reality coin, what you value most. So he noticed the wood in my office.  He said, ‘And I noticed that you had Kleenex boxes sitting on these little rolling carts. It would really be honourable for me if I could actually take those little Kleenex boxes, and melt my Kleenex box systems on your wall that match your wood. All you do is lift them up on a hinge, put the Kleenex box and pull the tissue, put it back down to replace it. And then you have more space on your thing, because I noticed you had less space on there than probably ideal. It really means a lot to me if I can put them in all your rooms.' I said, ‘I would be honoured to have those in there. And I want you to do me a favour. I want you to put your card on the bottom of each one. So I can, for referrals.' He said, ‘I would be glad to do that.' He said, ‘But that would mean a lot. Because you just changed my life.'  He ended up doing what he really loved to do, grew his business. I got complimentary things in all my rooms, which was an added bonus. But it just goes to show that people, when they're doing something that's deeply meaningful, truly inspiring, high in priority, they excel. So don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want to help them fulfil their highest value. Lisa: Be it personal and be it roles. And not this division of the company. Dr John: The actual actions. So you make sure you have a job description with all the actions and you ask your potential candidate: ‘How specifically is doing this actually going to help you fulfil what's most deeply meaningful to you?' If they can't answer it, don't hire them. If they answer with enthusiasm on all those things, you get them, grab them. If they don't, don't worry because they're going to be microman— you're gonna have to motivate them. Motivation is a symptom, never a solution to humanity. Lisa: And in changing that, I've got a friend Joe Polish. If you know Joe, he's a very famous marketing man and an incredible connector and so on. He talks about, he was talking about entrepreneurship one day, I forget the context of the situation. But he teaches about entrepreneurial things, how to do it. He's hugely successful. Someone said to him once, ‘You've had the same assistant for the last 21 years, for how many years, a lot of years. If she's been hearing you talk about how wonderful it is to be an entrepreneur to do all these things, how come she hasn't gotten that information and runoff and become her own entrepreneur?'  He called the lady over and he said, ‘Why is it that you still with me?' He knew the answer. But she answered, ‘Because I don't want to take on the risk. That's not my job. That's not my passion. My passion is to serve Joe and be the person in the backstage setting all those things up. That is my highest power. That is what I love. That's why I'm still here. I love working with Joe, and I love his mission. And that's what I'm happy doing.' That's the key, is not everybody should be an entrepreneur. Or everybody should be having the same mission. It's that she understands what her passions, what the job is. Dr John: If everybody was an entrepreneur, who would be working for him? Lisa: Yeah. We'd have a hell of a mess. And being an entrepreneur is a long, arduous, often difficult, lonely road full of holes, along the way, potholes. It isn't for everybody, but for people like you and for me, it's, I can go for it. I've got to be running my own ship. And learning from people like you is great for me because then I can see what helps my next steps and what I should be doing. Instead of—  Dr John: Can I share another story?  Lisa: Go for it. Dr John: So, right about the same time when I was hiring that other person, a young gentleman, late 20s, I'm guessing, mid to late 20s, came into my office, and asked if he could have a meeting with me. And he worked with Yellow Pages. There used to be a thing called Yellow Page.  Lisa: Yeah. I'm old enough.  Dr John: They were ads, telephone ads. You put a listing, it's free. But if you put a listing with a little box or a little ad in it, it's a little bit more. You bought the Yellow Page ad. So he was trying to sell Yellow Page ad. So he sat in my office. And he started to do this little spiel. And I had the time. So I took a moment to do it. Because I was curious what the prices were. And at the end of his little spiel, and not even to the end, three quarters through, I stopped him. I said ‘Stop. Just stop.' That was the worst presentation. That was so off. I said, ‘This is not what you want to do in life. What do you really want to do in life?' And he looked at me and he goes, ‘That bad?' And I said, ‘It was bad.' ‘I bet you haven't sold anything.' He says, ‘No, I haven't.' I said, ‘This is not you. What's your heart? Where's your heart? What do you really, really, really, really dream about doing in your career?' He said, ‘I want to be in the restaurant business.' I said, ‘Go to a restaurant today to get a job there, and work your way up until you own your restaurant.' He goes, ‘Well, I needed to hear that. Because I respect you and I needed to hear that from you.' And then I sold him a little audio cassette tape that I'd done, called The Psychology of Attainment. And he bought it, it was only 10 bucks.  He walked out with his $10 thing to listen to because I knew if he listened to it, it would encourage him to keep it going. He left there. Eight years go by, never seen the guy again. Eight years go by. I had moved to a new office. And I was on my way to go have lunch with my CPA. He picked me up. I came downstairs, he picked me up, took me to this little Super Salad restaurant nearby because we both had less than an hour to eat. So it's quick. Get in there and get a salad. You walk in and this Super Salad is a thing where you get a tray, and it's got a whole bunch of foods. And whatever it is they weigh it, and they charge you the acquired weight. So you get salad. You pay less if you get something with it.  As I walked in, and we started going to the line, I saw that young man grown up eight years older in this suit, talking to another man in a suit. And I said, ‘If you don't mind going get me a tray. And I'll catch up. I see someone I must say hi to.' I walk over to this guy. He's talking this man. He's not paying attention to me. I'm standing right next to him. And as he's talking I'm just standing there waiting for him to finish. All of a sudden he finishes, the guy starts to walk off he turns around as if he's going to say, ‘Can I help you?'  Lisa: Yeah, he didn't realise this.  Dr John: And obviously he looks at me and he goes, ‘Oh my god. Wow, wow.' He shook my hand, and ran off and got the other guy to come here, ‘This is the guy I told you about.' And he told him, ‘This is the guy.' And the guy said, ‘Oh, thank you. I'd love to meet you. He's told me all about you, he said you changed his life.' And I said, ‘Well didn't know until today. What impact– Lisa: What are you doing? Yeah. Dr John: But the guy told me, he says, ‘I have eight franchises. I come into my restaurant. That was the manager. I'm checking up on my restaurants and I'll go to the next one. I check them out once a week, I go make my rounds.' He said, ‘That day, I got me a job at Super Salad. I worked myself into a management position for over two years. As I was saving the heck out of my money, which your tape set said to do, I bought into the franchises and I got eight franchises.' Lisa: Jesus! Just from that one tape, that one conversation, see this is the impact– Dr John: I said to him, ‘You just inspired me.' It brought a tear to my eye to know that– because I thought maybe I was a bit tough on you. He said, ‘Sir, you did the most amazing thing to my life that day. Because the truth is, I wanted to be in the restaurant business. And now I am.' Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing The Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a Patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisatamati dot com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.  Lisa: You've encouraged him basically to have faith in the dream and to– because everybody else, like your family, often your friends, often are, ‘You can't leave that safe job.' I've had this conversation with my husband who's a firefighter. And he says like, ‘I can never leave the fire brigade because it's what I've always done. And that's how I've always, you know, it was my passion,' and so on. And I said, ‘Yes, but you don't have to stay there. That's your choice. Opt for security and– If you want security, if you want to do something, then do it. Life is short.' Dr John: All I know is that if you're not doing something you're inspired by, life can be pretty horrible. I see people. I didn't, I used to get, I lived in New York for a while. And we lived in Trump Tower there, fifty-sixth and fifth, right underneath Donald, so I knew Donald. So I live there for 29 years. And sometimes, you can take taxi. Sometimes, you take, when we're going in the airport, I got a limo. But just going around the city, sometimes I'd have a taxi. I get in the taxi and I– if there was a mess, sometimes I'd pass it by. I go, ‘No, smelly. No, no respect.' But again, in a taxi– if I'm in a hurry, it's hard to get, right? It's 3:30 to 4 o'clock march, I get in whatever I get, because I don't want to wait another 20 minutes. But I get it and I go, ‘How long have you been driving a taxi?' And they'll say a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, whatever it may be. I said, ‘Do you love it?' Some will look in the mirror and go, ‘Pays the bills, man.' And I said, ‘But do you love it?' He goes, ‘Are you kidding, man? If I got a thing in New York, you got to be nuts.' And they have that attitude.  Of course, the car is usually a mess. It's got ripped holes in it. It's got cigarette burns. It's got a little bit of an odour. You know it's not taken cared of; it's not clean. But then you get in another car. And, ‘How long have you driven a taxi?' ‘28 years.' I said, ‘Do you love it?' ‘I love it. I get to meet people like yourself. I meet the most amazing people every day. My father was a taxi driver. My grandfather was a taxi driver in New York. I know every city, every street, I know every part of the city. Here's my card. You want some water?' ‘Sure.' ‘Anything you need to let, give me feedback about my car, please tell me. If there's something not in order, if somebody left something there, if it's dirty, let me know. I'd like to make sure that everybody gets a good experience in my car. If you want to know about the city, you just ask me. Anytime you want to go anywhere in the city, you contact me. And there's my card, I will take you, and I'll make sure you got the best thing, and I'll be on time for you.' He was just engaged. And he loved it. And of course, I got his card. And I called him. And sometimes when I was going around the city, I would use him. He would even come back and pick me up. Lisa: And it shows you that it doesn't matter if you're cleaning toilets or you're a taxi driver or you're at the garbage disposal. Whatever job you're doing, do it well, for starters. That can be your mission in life, is to provide that service. It doesn't have to be taking on the world and flying to Mars like Elon Musk. It's just, do your job; do it well. I don't, I just– I have issue too, with people who just doing the job, getting the paycheck, not doing the job with passion.  You can tell. I walk into my gym and there's a new lady on reception who is just beaming from ear to ear, fully enthusiastic. I see her training; she trains like a maniac. She's just always happy and positive. When somebody comes into that gym now, they get a positive smiley receptionist. ‘Come in' and ‘How was your day?' The contrast to the other person that works at the gym who's surly looking, never smiles. And if you, say ‘Hello, how are you doing?' It's like, ‘Mmm.' And you think, ‘Wow, that is just the difference between someone who's just, “I'm so lucky to be here” and “I'm working.”'  Dr John: They're engaged versus disengaged. Can I share another story?  Lisa: This is great.  Dr John: Right. My father, I started working for my father when I was four. He owned a plumbing business. He wasn't a plumber. He's an engineer, but he had plumbers working for him. And my job was to clean the nipples. And they sound a little sexual, but it's actually, these little pipes and couplings, so it's interesting. But I used to scrape them out with a brush and oil them to make sure they would be preserved because they'll get a little rusty sitting around. Then, my dad would then, every once while, not every day, but most of the time, would give me the opportunity to go out with the plumbers to go on calls to learn plumbing. Everyone, so he would say, ‘Well, you're going to go with Joe today. You're going to go with Bob. You're going to go with Warren. You're going to go with…' And this one day, he said, ‘You're going to go with Jesse.'  I spend part of the day with Jesse. And Jesse was a ditch digger. He was an Afro-American man that was a ditch digger. And I said, ‘You want me to go with Jessie, am I going to dig a ditch?' He said, ‘Yes. I want you to go with Jesse.' I said, ‘Why?' He said, ‘You'll know when you get back.' ‘Okay.' So I go out with Jesse. We drive to this house that is about a 35-year-old house that needs a new water main from the street, the main from the street up to the house. And so he got a T-bar out, and he got a hose, and he got some paper, and he got a sharpshooter, which is a special shovel, and a little round-headed shovel, and a level and a string. This long string thing wrapped up on this piece of wood. And some, and another stick. The stick that had string around it where there are two sticks on either end. You could open them up unravelling. He stayed one at one place, stayed the other place, exactly where the line is going to go. Then he took a T-bar and went down into the ground to make sure there's no roots, no rocks, no anything that might interfere with the laying of a pipe. Then he watered it to make sure that you could go and if you dug it, it was just wet enough that it wouldn't crumble if you turn the sod over. And then he lined paper on one side of it. And then he showed me how to dig the ditch. I would go down to exactly the width of the sharpshooter, which is how deep it had to go. And then we would turn it over onto the paper. And that meant that the grass wasn't even cut, it was just folded over. Right. And we had a perfectly straight ditch. And then he showed me how to create the ditch with this other little thing. And it would go on top of the sides. It wouldn't fall off into the grass. It would just be on top of the paper, and on the inside. Then he took the level and he made sure that the grade was perfectly level from one place to the other because if you have a dip in it, water will sit there and rust and it'll wear out quicker. But if it flows exactly in line, you don't get as many rusting. We put this pipe down, pretty perfectly clear, perfectly graded. We levelled it, made sure it was perfectly level. We installed it to the house, into the main. We then put some of the dirt back over it. Put the sod back on, patted it down, watered it, squished it down, loosened up the grass so you couldn't even tell it had ever been done now. And we had a brand new waterline done. And when you're done, you could not, until you could walk around, you couldn't tell it was done. It was perfect. And then we got in the truck and started to drive off. And I asked, you know, Jesse, his name was. I said, ‘That was neat.' You know, I'm a young kid. And I said, ‘Call me J for John.' He said, ‘J, I have the greatest job on this planet, the greatest job a man could ever, ever, ever ask for.' And I said, ‘What do you mean?' I thought he's a ditch digger. He said, ‘Without water, people die. I bring life to people. My job is the most important job. They can't bathe. They can't drink. They can't make food. They can't do anything without my water pipe. I had the most important job on this planet. And I bring water to people. Without water people die.' And I thought, ‘Whoa.' And I came back and he said to me, ‘My job is to do such an amazing job that they call the office and complain that we never came.'  Lisa: Because they can't see where he's been!  Dr John: It's so immaculate. They don't believe that somebody came and they'll call and cuss out your dad. “Why is it not, why did you not do the main?” And your dad knows. Tell them, “If you don't mind just walk out. They will see that the main is there.”' They're unbelievably astonished that there was no mess and it's perfect. And he didn't tell us about Jesse, and the respect he does when he does water main. He knew that if I would go out there and learn from him, here's a man that does what he loves. Yeah, and he's the ditch digger. And in those days, you didn't make a little bit, you didn't make a lot of money. Lisa: And I love that. And it just reminds me of my dad. He was always cleaning up at the garden. He was a firefighter professionally, but he would be, every spare moment, gardening somebody's garden, cleaning up, landscaping, doing it. And he worked on films as a landscape artist and so on. He was always the one that was cleaning everything up, everything was immaculate by the end of the day. Whereas every, all the other workers were just, ‘Down tools. It's five o'clock, we're off,' sort of thing. Drop it and run. Everything was always a mess.  My dad, he always had everything perfectly done. And was, always came home satisfied because he'd spent, when he wasn't at the fire brigade, he spends his day with his hands in the dirt, out on the sun, physically working in nature, and loving it and doing a proper job of it. So yeah, it just reminded me because he taught us all those things as we were growing up too. And would take us and teach us how to paint and teach us how to, all of these things.  Dr John: The more something is high on your value that you're doing, your identity revolves around your highest value. Whatever is highest on your value, your identity revolves around. As a result of it, the pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most. Because you're inspired and love doing it. And it's, your identity goes around it. So my identity would rather revolve around teaching. So I'm inspired to do teaching. I can't wait to do it.  Whatever high an individual's values is what they're going to excel at most. And they are wanting to do it not because they have to, but because they love to. People do something they love to, completely do a different job than people that have to. They're creative, innovative. They go out of their way. They don't care if they have to work extra time. They don't care about those things because they're doing what they love. Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. You have some fabulous stories to illustrate the point. So whatever you're doing people, do it properly, and do it with passion, and try to get to where you want to. You might, this just takes time to get to where you want to go. You come out of school, you're not going to end up being near the top of your game. But you have to start somewhere and head towards what your passion is. I wanted to figure— Dr John: If you start out right at the very beginning, master planning, you can get there pretty quick. In 18 months, I went from doing everything, to do the two or three things that I did most effectively. I delegated the rest away. But my income went up tenfold.  Lisa: Wow. Yeah. Because you were actually doing the things that mattered the most. Dr John: Me going out and speaking and me doing the clinical work was the two things that I was, because that's the thing I went to school for. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't want to do the administrative or I didn't want to do all that other stuff. Hire people to do that. That freed me up. Lisa: Yeah, it's a fantastic message. Now, I wanted to flip directions on you if I could, and I've been doing a lot of study around flow states and optimising. How do we build into ourselves this ability to be operating at our best, which we've been talking a little bit about? What neurotransmitters are at play when we're in a flow state? How do we maintain this over time to remain inspired and not be worn down?  We think about flow state or I don't know how to put this into words, people. By that I mean, it's that state where you're just on fire, where everything's happening really well, you're at your genius place, your talents are being expressed properly, and you're just in it. I would get that when I'm running, or when I was making jewellery and I would, time would disappear, and I'd be just in this otherworldly place, almost sometimes. How do we tap into that? Because that is where we as human beings can be our optimal, be our best. Have you got any ideas around that as far as the neurotransmitters and the neuroscience of flow states? Dr John: Yes. It boils down to the very same thing I was saying a moment ago: not doing low priority things. There's two flow states though, and they get confused. Maybe people have confused a manic elated, utopic, euphoric high, which is a fantasy of all positives, no negatives in the brain that makes you manic. That flow state is a hypocriticality, amygdala-driven, dopamine-driven fantasy high that won't last.  Then there's a real flow state. When you're doing something that's truly inspiring and deeply meaningful, you get tears in your eyes getting to do it. You're not having a hypocriticality, you're having a supercriticality, where the very frontal cortex is actually activated, not the lateral but the medial one, and you're now present. It's the gratitude centre; it's grace. There you're in the flow because you're doing something you really love to do that you feel is your identity. That's where time stops.  Some people confuse a manic episode with that state. But a manic episode crashes. But the real flow state is inspired. That's when you're able to do what you love doing consistently. When Warren Buffett is doing, reading business statements, and financial statements, and deciding what companies to buy, this is what he loves doing. For me, I'm studying human behaviour and anything to do with the brain, and mind, and potential, and awareness. I'm that way. I can lose track of all time and just be doing it for hours. It's not a manic state. That's an inspired state. An inspired state is an intrinsically driven state where you're willing to embrace pain and pleasure in the pursuit of it.  You love tackling challenges and solving problems, and you'll just research and research or do whatever you're doing, and you just keep doing it because you won't stop. That's not a manic episode. Although manics can look similar, there's a difference. Though a manic state comes from the dopamine, you got a high dopamine, usually high serotonin, you got encapsulants, endorphins. But you also don't have, you're not perceiving the downsides. You're just seeing all upsides. You are blinded by little fantasy about what's going to happen. And that eventually catches you, because that it's not obtainable. Fantasies are not obtainable, objectives are.  Eventually, the other side comes in, and osteocalcins comes in and norepinephrine, epinephrine, cortisol, the stress responses. Because all of, all of a sudden your fantasy's not being met. But when you think you're going after the fantasy, just think of it this way: when you're infatuated with somebody, you're enamoured. You're in this euphoria. All you see is the upside, and you're blind to the downside. Actually, at this time, you say, ‘I'm in love.' No, you're infatuated. And then when weeks go by, and months go by, you start to find out, ‘Oh, I was fooled. That person I thought was there is not who I thought.' And you find out about this person. And that's short-lived. Yeah.  When you actually know that human beings can have both sides, and you don't have a fantasy of one side, but you embrace both sides, and know that they're a human being with a set of values. If you can communicate and articulate what you want in terms of those values, you now have a fulfilling relationship. It's a long term relationship. It's not volatile. It's not manic depressive. It's just steady. That's the one that's the flow. That's what allows the relationship to grow. The manic thing is transient. The real flow is eternal. Lisa: So it's the difference between being in love, and infatuated, and being in actual true real long-term love. Dr John: Well, infatuation, people confuse with love. If I have an expectation on you to be nice, never mean; kind, never cruel; positive, never negative; peaceful, never wrathful, giving, never taking; generous, never stingy; considerate, never inconsiderate. If I have a fantasy about who you are and I'm high because I think I've found this person, that's ‘Oh, well, it's all one-sided.' It's not sustainable. No one's gonna live that way. But if I have an expectation, if they're a human being with a set of values, I can rely on them to do what's highest on their value, and nothing more. I respect their value, I see how it's serving my value, and I can appreciate what they're committed to, and don't have any expectation except them to do what they do. They won't let me down. And I'll be grateful for them. Lisa: Why didn't you tell her that when I was a 20-year-old finding the wrong people in my life? Relationship-wise, are you going after the wrong types of people? Dr John: If you go after it a little infatuation, you have to pay with a broken crush. You never have a broken heart; you have a broken fantasy. Eventually, it helps you actually learn to go after what's in your heart. Lisa: And value what is really important. Gosh, wouldn't it be nice to have had never met a lot sooner? Dr John: There's no mistake, so much happened, because you wouldn't be doing this project. Lisa: No. Then this is what every piece of crap that's ever come your way in life has got an upside and a downside. Because I hear in one of your lectures talking about this: don't get ever overexcited, and don't get really depressed. It's always in the middle. You put it so eloquently, it was, whenever something good happens to you, don't get too overly excited about it. And whenever something bad happens to you, don't get overly depressed about it. Because there's something in the middle of there. You're not seeing the downsides of that good thing, and you're not seeing the upsides.  I've actually integrated that now into my life. When something good, I used to have this thing, ‘Oh my god, I have this breakthrough. I've had this breakthrough.' And ‘This happened to me.' And then I'll go and talk about it. And, because I'm a very open person and I found actually that's not good in a couple of ways. Because I'm overexcited about it. I've ticked it off in my brain almost as being happened. Dr John: If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside. Lisa: Yeah. And you think it's already happened. Say you meet someone, new possible job, or it's a possible contract, or something like that. And you got all excited about it. Because you've got you've initiated the process, but in your brain, you've already ticked that box and got the job and you're off.  Dr John: Then you undermine it. And you said it's related about a job opportunity. You usually have it taken away from you. You're mostly unready for it. If you're really ready for the job opportunity, you're going to know what it's going to take workwise to be able to get paid. You'll already get the downside and your objective. And know, ‘Oh, that's gonna be 28 hours of work here.'  Lisa: That's not cynical, that's not cynicism. That's actually not realism.  Dr John: It's grounded objectives. People who keep grounded objectives don't have job opportunities taken away from them. But people who get elated about it, brag about it, talk about it, almost inevitably disappears. Lisa: Wow. Okay. And so you got to be looking at, I've elated— a couple of opportunities come up that are possibly I'm thinking about doing. I'm like, ‘That one's gonna take so much work in this direction. That means going to be the sacrifice for you.' And the old me would have just gone, ‘Yeah. Let's do it, jump in. And I'm like, ‘Am I just getting old or is this actually a better way to be?' Dr John: My dad taught me something as a plumbing industry. He'd have to, they'd say, ‘Okay, we're going to build this house. Here's all the plumbing that's going to be involved in it.' They'd see the plans. He'd have to do an estimate. What would it cost to produce all that, put that together? If he got elated and he didn't do his cost, by the time he finishes, he didn't make any profit. But if he does his due diligence and knows all the responsibilities, what happens if it rains? What happens if there's delays? What happens if the permits are delayed? He puts all the variables in there and checks it all off. He then goes in to the customer and says, ‘This is what it's going to cost.'  He said, sometimes the customer would come to him and say, ‘Well, yeah. But this other one came in at $10,000 cheaper.' My dad would sit there and he would say to him, he said, ‘I want to show you something. I guarantee you, the man that comes in at $10,000 cheaper, is not going to be thinking of all the variables. You're going to end up not having the job that we're going to do. Let me make sure you understand this. You may not hire me, and that's okay. But I want to make sure you're informed you make a wise decision. Because if you don't, you're going to go pay that side to save $10,000, it's going to cost you an extra 10.'  Lisa: Yep. Been there, done that. Dr John: Well, my dad used to go through it, and with a fine-tooth comb, he explained all the different variables. He says, ‘Now, what I want you to do is go back to the person that's giving you those things and ask them all those questions. If they didn't think about it, they're going to either not make money off you and they're not going to want to continue to do the work. Or they're not going to do a great job because they're losing money. Or you're going to end up getting a thing done, then they're never going to want to do follow up and take care of you again as a customer. So here's what it costs. I've been doing this a long time. I know what it costs. I know what the property is. So I'd rather you know the facts, and be a little bit more and make sure it's done properly. Then go and save a few bucks and find out the hard way.' Here's the questions they go check. They came back to my dad.  Lisa: Yep. When they understood that whole thing. And I think this is a good thing in every piece of, every part of life. It's not always the cheapest offering that's the best offering, which you learn the hard way. Dr John: I had somebody come to me not too long ago, maybe four months ago, earlier this year. And said, ‘I go to so and so's seminar for almost half the price of your seminar. Why would I go to your seminar?' And I said, ‘That's like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Volkswagen.' I said, ‘So let me explain what you're going to get here. Let me explain what you're going to get here. Then you can make a decision. If you want that Volkswagen outcome, that's fantastic. If you want a Rolls Royce, I'm on the Rolls Royce. I'm going to give you something about here.' And once you explain it, and make the distinctions, people will pay the difference.  Lisa: Yeah. And that's– in a business, you have to be able to explain to them as well. When I was a jeweller, when I started, I was a goldsmith in a previous life. And we used to make everything by hand and it was all custom jewellery, etcetera, back before China and the mass production and huge factories and economies of scale really blew the industry to pieces. For a long time you were actually in that hanging on to one of those and not transitioning into the mass production side of it because I didn't want to, but not being able to represent the value that actually what you were producing: the customisation, the personalisation, the handmade, and people wouldn't understand that.  You end up chopping your own prices down and down and down to the point where it no longer became a viable business. And that was the state of the industry and so on and so forth. But people could not see the difference between this silver ring and that silver ring. That one's a customised, handmade, personalised piece that took X amount of hours to produce. And this is something they got spit out of a production line at a team and other people are wearing. But people can't see the value difference. Dr John: Yeah, you have to, you're responsible for bringing it to their awareness. If you've been to a sushi restaurant, they have this egg that's in layers. I noticed that to get some nigiri with an egg on it with a little seaweed wrapped around it, it was like $4 per piece. And the other sushi was like $2 at the time. I thought, just an egg. Why would it be that much? And then I thought, and then I watched him prepare one, and how many hours it took to prepare one of those slabs of egg because he had to do it in layers. We had to loony take a pan, take an egg, poured in the egg, cook it just a certain level. And then lay that, scramble it, laid on top layer to time while it's hot, and layer by layer by layer by layer and cut it and everything else to make that thing. And I realised that is an individual egg-layered piece of egg. And I realised after seeing him I go, ‘That's a $10 egg.'  Lisa: This is cheap.  Dr John: I was thinking, ‘How the heck does he do that for four bucks? How did he make any profit out of it?' I never questioned it after th

Strength training is often associated with professional athletes who need to condition their bodies. However, the general public could benefit from it as well. It's not just people who want to bulk up who need strength training, either. Regardless of your age, sex, and occupation, strength training can have massive benefits for your wellness.  In this episode, Russel Jarrett joins us to share some insights from his 30 years of experience in the fitness industry. He talks about what makes an elite athlete and how talent is not the only determinant of success. We also dive deep into the benefits of strength training and optimising your fitness.  If you want to know how strength training can help you function better, then this episode is for you.    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition, and mental performance to your specific genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training and coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com. We can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books, Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, dramatically decreases over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting-edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost NAD+ levels in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity, rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop Now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500 mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust: NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting-edge science) combats the effects of ageing and is designed to boost NAD+ levels. The NMN capsules are manufactured in an ISO 9001-certified facility. Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Know what propels an athlete towards an elite level.  Learn the various effects of strength training on our bodies. Discover the importance of hormones to our health.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #187: Back to Basics: Slow Down Ageing and Promote Longevity with Dr Elizabeth Yurth #188: How to Increase Your Self-Awareness and Achieve High Performance with Craig Harper Connect with Russell: Website  The Australian Fitness Podcast The Future is Faster Than You Think by Steven Kotler Lifespan by Dr David Sinclair Dr Elizabeth Yurth's online course on longevity Kultured Wellness A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights  [03:10] Russell's Background Russel went into athlete strength and conditioning because he didn't want to teach.  He worked with various athletes in Australia for a long time while still working with the general population.  He has since branched out to several business enterprises related to health and fitness. [06:03] What Makes a Good Athlete Elite athletes have a strong belief in their abilities. They stay confident and driven, regardless of their performance. Some athletes are exceptionally talented and find a way to play at the highest level. Even if you don't have innate talent, you can improve. You just need the right combination of drive, dedication, and perseverance.  [11:22] Observations on Different Sports Athletes adapt their mentality and physicality based on their sport. For instance, footballers have high pain tolerance, while golfers possess intense concentration.     Endurance athletes used to think that strength training would inhibit their ability to do well in their sports.  Now, they're beginning to recognise the importance of incorporating the appropriate strength training for their sport.  Improvement of your form, minimisation of injury, and faster healing time are some benefits of strength training. Our bodies are predisposed towards either endurance or strength training. The key is finding the balance between what you enjoy doing and what your body responds to. [24:30] Strength Training for the General Public Strength training helps to prevent accidents such as broken hips when our body starts to lose muscle mass.  Women tend to avoid strength training because they don't want to bulk up. However, the more muscle you can maintain in your body, the better it is for your hormones.  Strength training also improves your quality of life and overall lifespan.  If you want a body that works better and feels better, incorporate strength training into your exercise regimen. [32:37] Optimising Your Hormones You're not going to see results from exercise and diet alone. You also have to consider your hormones.  Your motivation also hinges on your hormones, so it's crucial to optimise them first.  Strength training is a natural way to boost hormones, especially for women. The story of Russell's wife is a perfect example that training and nutrition are not the only things at play when it comes to our health. During menopause, his wife suddenly felt unwell and gained weight. Then, she dropped 10 kilos in 10 weeks. Listen to the full episode to know how she did it! [44:13] Bouncing Back From Life's Setbacks Training your body today can allow you to bounce back from health problems down the road. Listen to the full episode to hear about Lisa's amazing neighbour in his 60s who rapidly recovered from his hip operation! Russell had a client in her 40s who completely reinvented her body in three years. Russel's client soon became fit enough to participate in a competition called The Big Red Run.  [46:45] Taking Tiny Steps Towards Change You do not have to do everything today. Making small changes is better than overwhelming yourself.  Decide on a few things that you can commit to doing. Once you implement those changes, you will feel yourself getting better and wanting to improve even more. [52:35] Being Proactive About Your Health Lisa's husband is genetically three times more likely to develop Alzheimer's due to genetics. However, they actively mitigate that risk. Lisa shared a story about a man whose health was in decline at 65 but is now active again at age 75. Listen to the full episode for the details! Russell advocates for self-medication through exercise, nutrition, sunlight, and being outdoors.  Do your due diligence—do your research and take charge of your health.   7 Powerful Quotes ‘[Athletes are] not invincible, but I think that anyone who gets to the elite level has a mental belief, a strong mental belief in their ability.' ‘Good athletes and people that are considered elite have an ability to persevere when others might give up.' ‘Strength training pretty much is important for everybody in some way, shape, or form.' ‘If you train well and if you train consistently through your 20s, 30s and 40s, then your 50s, 60s and 70s will be a whole lot easier.' ‘It's not a disease model that we should be following. It's a prevention model. It's optimisation.' ‘You can't achieve anything in life, whether it's physical, or financial, or anything without dedication, discipline, and consistency.' ‘With your own health and what people are telling you to use or take or consume, you got to do your own due diligence.'   About Russell Russell has 30 years of experience in athlete preparation and training the general population. He has worked with the AFL, AIS, Cricket Australia, WNBL, and ABL. Today, he owns 24/7 fitness facilities and consults with clients from all over Australia.  He is also an educator and a speaker at different institutions. Furthermore, Russell built two registered training organisations and has coached hundreds of trainers over the years. He is a firm believer that physical performance improvement is for everybody.  If you want to reach out to Russell or know more about his work, you check out his website.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can understand the importance of strength training and optimising your fitness. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have Russell Jarrett with me. Now Russell is one of Australia's leading strength and conditioning coaches, owns a number of gyms with his lovely wife Tara, and has also worked with many elite teams from the AFL, from soccer, from golf, to tennis. He's been around a while and done a lot of things. So you're going to really enjoy this conversation on strength and conditioning and how to optimise your fitness.  Before we go over to the show, just want to let you know that we have our BoostCamp live webinar series coming up on the first of September, it starts. It's eight weeks long, we're going to be doing a live seminar every week. You're going to be we're going to be learning everything around levelling up your life, basically. So how to age like a winner, how to reduce your stress, how to deal with all the things that are coming at us, and are overwhelmed today's society. We're going to teach you how to tap into your biology through your neurology. So we're going to be looking at how to optimise your sleep, health fundamentals, nutrition, exercise, all those sorts of good things, as well as things like circadian rhythms.  It's going to be a really good life program, basically. So we hope you can join us over there. If you want to find out more, go to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp, that's boost with an -st. No, it's not boot camp, it's BoostCamp. We won't be making you do burpees during the webinar, I promise. So make sure you come and join us over there: peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  We also have our flagship program running, as usual, our epigenetics. This is all about understanding what your genes are about and how to optimise your life to your specific genes. Now we use it with lots of our runners. We also use it in the corporate sector for teams and leadership teams and building strong companies. We also use it for people who are going through different health crises and wanting to optimise their health fundamentals to help them through. So if you're interested in finding out about that, just go to peakwellness.co.nz. Okay, now over to the show, with Russell Jarrett.  Lisa: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have Russell Jarrett with me. Welcome to the show, Russell. Fantastic to have you! Russell Jarrett: Thanks, Lis. Good to be here.  Lisa: We have a mutual friend who's put us in contact, and we're very, very grateful. We're going to be sharing some good stuff around health, fitness, health optimisation, strength, and conditioning. That's your jam. Now you, Russell, can you give people a bit of background? You've got a hell of a lot of experience in working both with elite athlete teams and different sports, as well as, the general population through your gyms, and your studios, and so on. Can you just give us a bit of a synopsis on your career, if you like?  Russell: Yeah, sure. So it stretches back some 30 years now. I started like many other coaches do. You know, working on the gym floor and understanding what that environment looked like and felt like. Once I finished my physio degree, I decided I didn't necessarily want to teach. I moved into athlete strength and conditioning. That was an area which seemed to really raise my interest. I got involved in that. But back in those days, it was very much a part-time role and a part-time world. There wasn't really professional sporting teams as yet. So I had to then supplement with work in the fitness industry, and with general population.  I've always had one foot in either world, and I've worked with elite athletes in various sports in Australia for a long time. But I've also had my own business enterprises and studios or RTOs, and things like that, that I've used to provide myself with a stable career. Because one thing I have learned in the strength and conditioning world is that it's a great environment to work in. It's exciting. It's high pressure. It's always different. It's challenging. But it's unstable, and it can be volatile. Because as they say it's a results-based industry. So if the results aren't coming, for whatever reason, and that may or may not have something to do with what you do, it might not. But nonetheless, if there's a change in personnel, quite often you're part of that change. Lisa: That's so true. You know that that's what I love. You have to be flexible, adaptable, and being able to sort of go with the flow. When you're an entrepreneur, I mean, on this, similar sort of world, different but similar. You have to make that happen, basically, if you want things, if you want to keep in business, and you have to be good at your job, otherwise, yeah, people aren't going to come back.  I want to go a little bit into your experience with working with elite athletes for starters. Because I think it interests, a lot of my— so my listeners are endurance athletes, not everyone. Everyone's a lot of average, sort of people interested in health optimisation and being the best that they can be. My background is as an ultra-endurance athlete.  What is it that you think sets a good athlete up from a mindset point of view? Before we get into the strength and conditioning side of the equation, which is hugely important, but do you think that there's— like having worked with general population and lots of elite athletes, what is that some of the key differences that you see between the two groups, if you like? Russell: Yeah, look, I think when people start to figure out that they have a talent, or a gift, or an ability that is above and beyond what is considered normal, I think along with that comes a strengthening in their self-belief and their understanding of what they can do. That takes time. But there are still athletes that will, by their own admission, will struggle with their own self-belief and their own levels of doubt, and so forth. They're not invincible but I think that anyone who gets to the elite level has a mental belief, a strong mental belief in their ability. They know what they can do. They know what they're good at. They're obviously passionate about it.  Then I think for the elite athletes, it's just an ongoing evolution of that ability to stay focused, stay driven, stay hungry, and stay confident when perhaps their performances are suggesting otherwise. I think that's, good athletes and people that are considered elite have an ability to persevere when others might give up. I think that's probably one of the things I noticed the most. Lisa: Perseverance. Do you think there's a difference between— is the most important thing talent? Or is the most important thing, a never quit attitude and I'm gonna keep fighting a fighting sort of attitude? What do you think's more important? Russell: I think there's a combination there. I think it's different for every person. I think there's definitely athletes that are extremely exceptionally talented: Michael Jordan, NBA, Tiger Woods in golf, Michael Schumacher in F1. These kinds of people are supremely talented. They're just playing on another level. I think for those people, they probably don't suffer the same levels of doubt or stress than others might.  Now, on the same environment, you've got people who are not that talented. So there were people that that played in the same team as Michael Jordan, right? So there was a guy from Australia called Luc Longley, who was one of the pioneers of Australians into the NBA. Luc Longley was a seven-foot centre, who played a couple of seasons with the Chicago Bulls. Now Luc Longley, and he'll tell you this, was in no way shape or form as talented as Michael Jordan. But he still managed to play in the same team, at the same level, and win championships alongside Michael Jordan.  Now, it's not talent that got Luc there. So it's got to be something else. Obviously, he had some talent. But he obviously had incredible desire, hunger, dedication, perseverance. He had some ingredients that he combined with his talent to allow him to play at the highest level. So I think it's different for every athlete. Some athletes do their thing because they're in extremely talented environments. They're just freaks at what they do. Then there's other people that you look at in all sorts of sports, and they don't— Lisa:  —work your ass off.  Russell: Yeah, they don't look that athletic. They don't look amazing. They don't do extraordinary things, but they just keep going and they hang in there. They find a way to play at the highest level. It's quite extraordinary.  Lisa: Yeah. I mean, that's certainly my background, I absolutely had no talent as a runner. Absolutely none. Just for sheer bloody-mindedness got sort of pretty good at it. I think, that's why, for me to ask the question because for me, talent is, if you've got it, then you're bloody lucky. But even if you haven't, if you're one of those people listening that goes, ‘You know, I haven't got any genetic abilities and talents and stuff, but I really want to do it.' Well, don't give up on your dream.  I remember going to Millennium Stadium in Auckland with the Auckland University doing VO2 max testing and all that sort of stuff. They said to me afterwards, like, ‘If you're a young athlete coming to see whether you'll be good at endurance sports, we'd tell you, don't give up your day job. You're actually below average, below average.' Small lung capacity, very low VO2 max. I said, ‘Well, lucky, nobody told me that back then. Because then I wouldn't have gone on to do the stuff that I did.' That's the point now that just because you don't have the talent doesn't mean you can't. You might have to work your way around things, you might have to work twice as hard as the guy next to you. You have to be prepared for that battle. But I think you can.  Okay, so you've worked in the AFL, cricket. What other sort of sports have you worked with? And what do you see as differences between the sport arts as well? Any sort of insights?  Russell: Yeah. I've spent some time in the AFL, with Cricket Australia, I've worked with netballers, basketballers, tennis, and golf. Look, physically, all of those athletes differ because they adapt according to what their sport requires of them. So footballers have exceptionally high levels of fitness capacity, strength, endurance, agility, power. They're very well-developed and well-rounded athletes. Then you've got golfers who essentially are not always very athletic, although the sport is getting better. But they have incredible levels of coordination, incredible levels of concentration, incredible levels of focus. Because that's what their sport requires. So I've been lucky to work in different sports.  Yeah, you're right. I always see these little nuances between different sports and what they bring to the table. Footballers, generally have really high levels of pain tolerance, because to play at that level, it's quite uncomfortable. Whereas golfers have incredible levels of concentration and mental resilience. Because you can stand over a putt, which might be four feet long, but that one shot over four feet might be worth a million dollars.  Lisa: Wow. Yeah.  Russell: So you better make sure that you've got incredible focus, and that your internal dialogue is very calm and very measured. Because if you're standing over that putt worth a million dollars, and you're like, ‘I don't know, if I can do this,' and your heart rate is pounding, you're not in a good position to make that putt.  Lisa: Wow. That's a good insight.  Russell: Yeah, isn't it? Lisa: It is because, I've often looked at golf and thought, ‘Why the hell are they so high pay when you've got some triathlete, or Tour de France winner, it gets, a pittance in comparison.' And you're thinking, the training and the dedication and these dangers and all of that. You think that. So it's interesting to see that there is a different lot of things at play and it's the brain. I mean, I watched Docker last night, I love neuroscience. There was a great one just on Netflix, actually, and it was looking at how the neurons in the nervous system work. It was looking at a boxer and all the stuff that's going on in the brain. It was like, wow, there is different types of coordination, fitness, reaction, emotional control, all of these things play into this game that we are, whatever sport you're into, and into life in general and staying healthy.  One of the things that I found interesting, they were talking about ultramarathon runners having the blood sugar levels of a diabetic and I was just like, ‘Really? Is that why—?' Because I've been monitoring my blood sugar levels over the last couple of years, and I'm going, ‘What the hell! They're extremely high at times.' I'll be doing like an interval training session and fast, evening hours and I was up at nine and a half and I'm like, ‘Oh, my God, I'm diabetic.'  I'm now like, listening to that yesterday, now I'm like, ‘Ah, ultramarathoners trained their body to respond with huge amounts of blood sugars, and they're very insulin sensitive.' So actually, the opposite is actually happening. But if you just took that at face value, you just took that 9.5 measurements on blood glucose, you'd think, ‘Oh, my god, she's got diabetes.' So it's a really interesting world. Or when you're recruiting, you're doing a big, heavy weight, the neurons as what you're training, not just the muscle fibers, isn't it? Russell: Yeah. In fact, with a lot of strength training, and that's what people find, especially people who are new to strength training, they actually develop new levels of strength quite quickly. If you take a beginner, and they've never done weight training before, strength training before, you can actually get them quite strong within two to three weeks. They'll notice a difference in two to three weeks. Now, that's not a physiological adaptation in the muscular system. That is a physiological adaptation in the nervous system. So their nervous system adapts and changes much more rapidly. So that's why you see that rapid increase in strength. Lisa: At the start.  Russell: At the start. That's right. Then after a couple of weeks, the muscular system also changes and starts to catch up. Lisa: Wow. Is that also why you have a little bit of a plateau after your initial gains? And you're like, ‘Ah, this is great, I'm gonna keep improving,' and then you don't. Russell: Exactly. So the nervous system changes rapidly. Then the adaptation to the stimulus of that starts to slow, and then you get more physiological adaptation in the muscular system. So, over time, the process of getting stronger is a combination of those two systems constantly being stimulated and constantly adapting to the changing stimulus.  Lisa: Wow. What sort of changes Is this making our body like from a health and well being and in longevity and anti-aging sort of stuff? I'm heavily into actually, resistance work, weight training, it doesn't have to be heavy, heavy stuff. But you have to be doing weight training as far as I'm concerned. So I'm coming from an endurance athlete background, that's not, that wasn't, certainly wasn't the conversation until our company, we're very big on the strength, we're big on the mobility, we're big on the not overdoing the running, not doing the high mileage models and ignoring the strengths, which is, the world that I sort of grew up in, when I was, learning as a young athlete, ultramarathon running.  There wasn't a guidance for starters. I remember ignoring strength and conditioning completely, and the strength side of it. Now realising, that's actually the base gains, the biggest weight changes, like isn't weight loss, the biggest metabolic changes, the biggest form changes for runners, strength trainers, the stability, the lack of injuries, like all of these things are just huge parts of that puzzle, even for endurance athletes.  Russell: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Going back maybe a couple of decades, strength training and endurance athletes, they didn't really talk to each other. It really wasn't part of the picture. Lisa: Yeah. Detrimental to don't do weights if you're a runner. Russell: You're absolutely right, there was a segment of the endurance world that believe that if you're lifting weights, that you could damage or inhibit your ability to run or do endurance sports. We know better than that now. We know that it is absolutely possible and actually recommended to combine endurance training with the appropriate level and type of strength training to benefit endurance athletes, no doubt.  Lisa: Yeah, it's a great insight.  Russell: When endurance runners, runners or cyclists or triathletes, when they get stronger, provided it's done in the correct fashion, as you say, it actually has benefits to their running technique, to their running form, to the minimisation of injury, to their ability to recover. Everything improves when you're stronger. Lisa: Yeah. And anabolic as opposed to the catabolic nature of our sport, which is tearing stuff down all the time instead of rebuilding. We need— on that point as well, the whole ‘I'm going to bulk up' mentality, it takes quite a lot to actually bulk up and there's different types of strength training to reach different types of goals. And the other aspect I wanted to ask you about like I do genetic testing and epigenetics, and understand the different sort of genetic combinations. If I put someone who is strength-based by genetics, and I put them into super long-distance endurance training, I'm going to be mismatching their genetics.  How that worked out for me in my life was I did ultramarathon running when my genetics are actually built around high-intensity sort of medium weights in shorter episodes, or shorter duration is actually what my genetics want. I decided to do ultramarathoning because I decided to do it. But I didn't know that, actually, from my genetics, it's actually really important to be doing some weight training. It's actually important that I don't overtrain as in the long distance.  Now, my active career time is over. So I've gone now for longevity and things that are more important to me now. I've found that I'm a lot healthier, a lot fitter. My hormones are in better balance because I'm doing what's in line with my personal genetics. It doesn't mean I can't even run an ultramarathon again. I can. But I shouldn't be doing them back to back if I want to live a long time and not break myself.  Do you see that? I mean, you were— without going deep into the embryology and epigenetic side of it, but you got your ectomorphs, your mesomorphs, and your endomorphs as a broad categories. The endomorph population really, really benefit from strength training. Like it's really important. It's counterintuitive, especially for females and the population, because they think they're already bigger, stronger people. And they think that when they go to do weight training, that's going to make them like really massively bulky. What would you say to that? Have you come across that experience at all? Look, I'm in the weeds here. But— Russell: No, you're right. Certainly, people are more predisposed to certain activities, which is essentially what we're saying. So I'm an ectomorph. But my body shape and my body composition is more ectomorphic. I'm quite slight, narrow shoulder. I don't weigh much. But I do still strength train. But what we're saying here is that because I'm not sort of genetically gifted or predisposed towards strength training, it also means that I'm what we call a slow gainer or a non-responder. For me to put muscle on my body, for me to get stronger, I've got to do a lot of hard work and I've got to eat a lot of food. Because it's really hard. My body does not want to get bigger. But if I put a pair of shoes on a winter run, my body is very happy. So you're absolutely right. Now, with females, yes, there are people that are going to respond better to endurance work, and respond better to strength work. But I guess what it comes down to is, how do you then combine that predisposition to what it is that your goals are, to what it is that you enjoy doing, and to what it is that your body responds to? That's the I mean, if I had the answer to that Lisa— Lisa: That's your secret sauce.  Russell: Yeah. If I had the answer to that, Lisa, I'll be making a fortune. Lisa: Well, that's right. That's why I study epigenetics. It's really key or we work with different platforms but then technologies and stuff. But what I get out of it is that gives me the black and white information and then as a coach, then I can help you piece together the right combination. So if I've got someone who's like me or is more suited to shorter, high-intensity CrossFit style workouts for the one a bit of description, and they want to do ultramarathons, then I'll tailor their programs or our company will tailor the programs to fit that so that they can still do their goals but without wrecking their body. And that will be a lower mileage program than what it would be for you if I was training you who is an ectomorph, who can take more of the distance.  I think what's also important to understand is that strength training pretty much is important for everybody in some way, shape, or form. Especially as we get older and like when we hit our 40s and we start losing muscle mass naturally like that's what happens. This is where I see lots of runners especially our you know becoming like beef jerky, for lack of a better description, sarcopenic, losing muscle mass, then losing bone mass, and they may be cardiovascularly fit. They're not going to die of diabetes and being overweight, but where they run into troubles is with stress fractures and osteoporosis and lack of muscle. And that can kill you just as quickly as well.  I mean, a lot of people die of osteoporosis and breaking hips. You break a hip when you're above 60 and you're in trouble. That can lead to death. The stats for that is worse than it is for cardiovascular disease. That's just pretty scary when you start unraveling the whole bone. So it's really important for me to have people who aren't just endurance junkies, if you like, understanding, especially once I've hit the 40 and above that they get into that weight training, that they get into some strength training of some sort, at least. Russell: Yeah, with all my general population clients, if they are, if they are above the age of 50, I recommend to all of them strongly that some part, small to significant, but some parts of their weekly exercise routine has to include some form of relatively heavy strength training. Because if you want to look at one form of exercise that can improve your quality and length of life, it's strength training.  Lisa: We're on the same page. Yeah, and that's, you know, me coming from an endurance background saying that. And this is super important for a woman to hear as well, because I think women have a natural tendency, ‘I don't want to get bulky. I don't want to get muscular.' I can tell you now ladies, the more muscle you can maintain in your body, the better, the better your basal metabolic rate is, your human growth hormone. When you do strength training, you're going to up your levels of human growth hormone, which is going to help with your anti-aging, which is going to keep you younger, which is going to help with all of these different areas of cognitive, as well as physical, as well as sleep as well— every area of life is impacted. If you're doing heavy weight training, you go to sleep better, I'll tell you that much.  It's not just cardio, cardio, cardio, I think is the message that I'm trying to get across here. That's very important. Everybody should be doing a certain amount of cardio. It's absolutely crucial that we sweat, that we get our heart rate up and we do all that stuff. But it's the combination. In every decade where you go through, you basically need a new approach, I'm saying. You know, the ratios. We all need cardio. We all need strength training. We all need mobility as the other part of that conversation, which is your Pilates, yoga, foam rolling, all that sort of good stuff. Then it's the ratios that become different as you age. Then how heavy are you lifting and what body type do you have.  If you're a big, strong endomorphic body type, I can put some heavier weights through your joints, that's going to be good for you. If you're an ectomorph, I'm going to put some lighter weights, but I'm still going to put weights for you.  Russell: I did a podcast with Craig Harper the other few weeks ago, you've been—  Lisa: A couple times. Yeah man, he's awesome.  Russell: I said to Craig, ‘What I say to people all the time, “If you train well, if you train well, and if you train consistently through your 20s, 30s, and 40s, then your 50s, 60s, and 70s will be a whole lot easier.”' Lisa: Hell yes. This is gold man. Because the older you get, the more you have to focus on this. And the more you have to train, not volume-wise, but the more you have to focus on this and get that combination right because it becomes more and more important, not less and less important. And what I see when the over 50s, and 60s, and 70-year-olds is that they go, ‘Oh, I'm older now I don't have to do as much.' That's the opposite of what you should be doing. I'm older, therefore I can get away with less therefore I have to do more in the right context. I have, you know, a story. People who listen to my podcast know about my mom's journey. And she had an aneurysm five years ago, and she is at the gym five days a week. This afternoon, we'll be at the gym. We'll be doing weight training, and cardiovascular work, and coordination work, and yoga. Those are all parts of her rehabilitation. Now it's relative to her age; she's 79 years old.  Unfortunately, I didn't know all this back in the day. So I missed the boat in her 40s, and 50s, and 60s. And we've started in her 70s and coming back from a massive rehabilitation project, like, five years in now. God, I wish I had known what I knew then now. Like what I knew, what I know now, I don't, didn't know then because she would be in so much better shape. So now, I have to work that much more strategically in order to keep her where she is and to keep her moving forward into her 80s, and 90s, and hopefully beyond that. It's doable. Russell: Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. The understanding in the general population, in the general community, the understanding of our strength training is still poor. It's getting better because people like you and I are out there banging the drum saying, ‘Get strong. Lift heavy. Do your weights. You're not going to blow up. You're not going to give bulky. It's going to give you nothing other than a better, a better body that works better, moves better, feels better, functions better—' Lisa: —and dies later.  Russell: Exactly. Well, yeah, I mean, we haven't, we probably haven't come up with the anti-aging drug. But I think weight training is pretty close.  Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years, and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody. And we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from, you can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much much more. So check out all the details, patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us. This year another aspect that I've been really deep in the weeds on lately is hormones. A study under Dr Elizabeth Yurth, and she's a longevity doctor and orthopedic surgeon in America, brilliant lady, love her to pieces. I just did one course with her and it was like what to fix first. She was like, ‘I'm not going to tell you to do the right diet or the right exercise program. The very first thing that I'm going to get you to do is optimise your hormones.' Your hormones need to be— if you don't have testosterone and estrogen in the right levels in your body, and human growth hormone, and all the other hormones, and the right combination, and the right thing, then you are not going to be able to exercise.  She said, ‘If I tell someone who's severely overweight in their 60s who hasn't trained before just to go to the gym and start working out and their hormones are in the gutter, they're not going to be able to. They don't have the motivation. Because hormones are related to motivation. They don't have the ability. They don't have the energy, all of these aspects.' So optimising our hormones is a really important piece of a puzzle. I think this is a new conversation that's starting to open up. This is not about whether you know, like, we're not talking about, you know, illegal anabolic what bodybuilders or whatever have traditionally done. This is about optimising your hormones as you age and we start to lose, drop our testosterone, you guys especially in the late 40s, 50s start to really notice a big drop. If we can actually optimise that. That leads you know— like I do hormone consults and stuff. This needs to be done under doctors or people that are specialised in this. But if you can get that right, then you're going to have the energy to go and do the right exercise and you'll be more likely to eat right as well. Because you won't be having this downward spiral because if you get your hormones wrong and you start to feel lethargic, you start to have less energy, less cognitive ability, and, and, and, and, and.  For me I'm actually like, ‘Right, how do we optimise people's—?' Or, ‘Let's have some conversations around this.' Because to date, it's either been, okay woman, maybe hormone replacement therapy. Okay, if they're going through menopause or something like that. For guys, it's only the bodybuilders who have been getting testosterone.  I'll tell you now, men, if they get their testosterone levels checked, and if you can work with a good doctor, and that's a big if, trying to find the right one to work with. And get them optimised for your age and for where you're at so that you're actually— because then you will age a lot slower. But it needs to be done carefully because you go the wrong way and you can end up with cancer. So you need to understand your innate pathways and all that.  Without getting into that conversation, but just getting into the fact that hormones are absolutely crucial. And we can do things to boost our testosterone naturally: weight training. And women, you need testosterone as well. That's where your estrogens come from, for starters. They come from progesterone, to testosterone, to estrogens. And men when you do, so the more weight training you do, and the more, you'll have more human growth hormone and more testosterone available to you. And doing things like sauna and things also huge, huge. Like you do three days of sauna, you're going to have a 1600%, I think it is, increase in human growth hormone for the next couple of days. Russell: You're absolutely spot on. About two years ago— my wife is 51.  Lisa: Wow. She doesn't look it.  Russell: Has always been really good with her diet, really good with her training, always strength trained, always been a strong lady, and fit. About two years ago, started to feel unwell, started to be, kind of a little unmotivated with regards to exercise. But she still kept fighting through it. And she goes, ‘I'm just going through a flat phase.' Anyway, long story short, started putting on a little bit of weight, which was unusual because her diet was very good, her training was very good. In 12 weeks, she put on 12 kilos without explanation.  Lisa: It's menopause.  Russell: Exactly. So got hit fair and square between the eyes by the menopause bus. But she went to three different doctors, and none of them were prepared to explain, or assist, or advise, or refer. They all said to her, ‘You know what, for your age, you're in pretty good shape. I wouldn't worry about it too much.' Lisa: Ah, this makes me so— Russell: Then one guy, one doctor looked at her and said, ‘Oh, you're an attractive lady. What are you worried about?' Lisa: It's not about attractive lady. It's about optimisation. When will the doctors start to understand that it's not about the disease? It's not a disease model that we should be following. It's a prevention model. It's optimisation. That's the change that's going to happen. I can see it coming. Keep going. Russell: She finally, we made some phone calls to some friends. We did some research. She stumbled across an anti-aging doctor in Melbourne who was in his mid-90s and was still practising.  Lisa: That says something about him already.  Russell: Right. And he sat with her for, I guess, an hour and a half. And he explained to her what he did and how long he'd been doing it. And he said, ‘No one will tell you this.' He goes, ‘No regular doctor refers to me or believes in what I do.' He then met her for sort of an extended consult in which she did three blood tests over the space of six hours. He then managed her hormone profiles and prescribed her some medication and some testosterone. She lost, without changing her diet, without changing her exercise, she dropped 10 kilos in 10 weeks.  Lisa: Yup. That's an extremely important story. Russell, I hope the hell that she's sharing that out in the world because I have to get her on and share that in depth. Russell: There's a lot more to that story. That's the brief version.  Lisa: I want the full version. You should get your wife on my show.  Russell: Lisa, it really upset me and it really made me frustrated, as I'm sure you've been through the same process. I've heard your story about your mum. It just made me really upset that our medical profession is so— not all. I don't wanna generalise, but a large percentage of conventional doctors are so far behind. They're so far behind. Lisa: They're so far behind, and this is changing. I mean I'm reading a book at the moment called The Future is Faster than You Think by Steve Kotler. Unbelievable what's going to happen in the healthcare space. The data that's coming, the AI and all this sort of stuff, it's exciting because it's putting the power back into our hands because we'll be able to have the diagnostic tools. At the moment, I'm frustrated and frightened too because this stuff I know about I want to get from my mum or for myself and I can't get them, peptides and all this sort of crazy awesome stuff. I'm a biohacker, I experimenting the hell out of myself.  I've just been, I'm going through menopause. I'm 52, I've gone through menopause. I started on a product called NMN which I'm now importing to New Zealand and I work with a molecular biologist in this area. And this is an anti-aging longevity supplement that Dr David Sinclair, who wrote the book Lifespan, you have to read that book if you haven't. So I've been on that now for seven months— eight months. I've reversed my own menopause. I was already aware. I'm already on TTA. I'm on progesterone. I'm on estrogen. I already am optimising. I understand my genetic risk factors so I'm on all over that because I don't just do this willy-nilly. People, if you want a hormone consult, I can do that. That's what I do now.  I'm the leanest, fittest, I'm not fit in the ultramarathon sense, I couldn't go out and run a 200k race like I used to be able to. But I wasn't fit then. I was fit in that one thing, but I wasn't— I didn't feel athletic. I was overweight. I was puffy. I was hormonal. I was up the walls. My body was in overtraining. Now at 52,  I'm leaner than I've ever been, I'm stronger than I've ever been, and I've got more energy than I used to have.  When I went, you know, the last few years have been pretty rough. I've had a rough life, with mum, losing my dad, and losing my baby, and spit some shit towards their way. And still, you know, like, okay, I've been through the wringer and I've had a few things along the way. But this is why it's so important. Because you're going to get that from life. It's gonna come, sooner or later, you're going to get smashed in the face. The more stronger you can make your body so that it bounces back if you have an injury, or sickness or a virus or whatever, the better.  I mean, I've just been through shingles the last four weeks, which has been bloody awful. But now I'm back, and I'm training, and I'm back into life, and I'm optimising. That's not surprising because the stress levels that I've been through and exposed to are the reasons why my body was hammered. So you can't always avoid these things. These things are still going to happen to you. But if you're strong and resilient, and you've got the right nutrients, and you've got the right training, you will bounce back 100 times faster.  I've got a mate up here who is 60, I think he's 65 years old, and he's a kitesurfer. Legend of a bloke. He's been a waterman. And he's just had a hip operation. Within two days he was out walking. Within three hours of the operation, he was up. And I see him all day, every day. Now he's on the bike. Now he's down there watching the waves. He can't get out there yet, but he's walking every day. Like, that guy's gonna come back and bounce back like nothing because he is fit and he's just raring to go.  That attitude, it doesn't matter that he's 65. He's a kickass athlete. You want to watch them kite surfing, I'm in awe of him. He's out there for three, four hours and the biggest scariest, like stuff I would never touch. I don't know where to start. This guy's just killing it or up our mountain skiing. You don't have to accept that, ‘Oh you're now 50. So it's time for you to settle down and get a bit more sedentary. And you probably put on some weight, and you're— that's just life.' No it isn't! Russell: No, that's right. You're absolutely right. I've got it reminds me of one more little story. I had a lady who sat with me in my office about six years ago. I'll paint you the picture. Early 40s, quite overweight, very unathletic, very inexperienced with exercise, very intimidated by the gym, poor nutrition. Like the classic sedentary person. Anyway, we started talking and I managed to convince her to just gently start something. I made some adjustments with regard to her diet because it was horrendous. She started eating better, drinking less sugary drinks, eating more fruit and vegetables, meats, eating less processed food, started training, then started feeling better, losing weight, started getting more excited by the process. Three years later, she competed in an event in Central Australia called The Big Red Run.  Lisa: Oh, yeah. I've done that. Russell: Yeah. Well, there you go. She covered, what was it, 160 something kilometres in four days.  Lisa: Amazing.  Russell: Just, this was a woman, when she sat with me, she couldn't run. She wouldn't be able to run more than 500 meters without stopping. In three years, she did the Big Red Run. In one day, she had to cover nearly 80 kilometres. Lisa: Yeah, that one kicked my ass. I ended up with a back injury and didn't make it. So I know how hard that one is. Like rain, it's hot— Russell: It's amazing. She literally reinvented her body in three years. Lisa: In her 40s. Not 20s.  Russell: Yeah. In her 40s, yeah.  Lisa: That is just gold. What an incredible story. And even for me, you don't have to— I had a lady on the podcast a couple days ago: Cindy O'Meara, nutritionist. She was teaching me stuff about numbers, and preservatives, and shit. And I'm like, ‘Oh, my God, you know. And that's even like a—' But I didn't have any idea of that level of information and how they feed them on plastic bacteria and put it in our food. I'm like, ‘Wow, this is just horrific.' But she said to me, ‘You don't have to go out and do everything today.' Just decide, ‘This week, okay, I'm going to eat a little bit more organic. This week, I'm going to go and switch out for my, you know, something organic, better chocolate.' If that's what you're into, and you want to eat chocolate, then you don't want to be having the cheap and nasty. Go and find a good one.  You know, so it's just, in other words, taking tiny steps and every day that we make those little wee changes and those little wee steps, don't overwhelm yourself, because then you'll chuck it in. You don't have to be perfect. It doesn't mean you can never ever have an ice cream again. It doesn't mean that. It just means that you're making these incremental changes in your life, and slowly you start to get better. We're all on this continuum of change. And I'd bet you don't need 100% perfect to train, 100% perfect. I have days when I have a ‘F-it day' and you know stuff. Because I've had a bad day and I know I've done it. And then I'm like, ‘Okay, well, you know that this happened. We'll get back on the bandwagon.' Russell: Yeah, yeah, look, you're absolutely right. We're not saying to people that you need to eat like a monk and run marathons like David Goggins, not saying that. We're just saying, as you rightly pointed out, just small adjustments over time, identifying, okay, if you're unfit, if you're not eating well, what are two or three things that you could change today that would not feel like we're making your life incredibly uncomfortable? What are just three things that you could change?  Eventually, you change them. You realise that it wasn't that hard. You realise that you feel better for it. So then you start looking for what else can I do? What else can I change? You know, what else can I optimise? Then over the process of three years, this lady completely changed and completely optimised to the point where you would consider her somewhat of an elite athlete.  Lisa: Wow, this legend.  Russell: Yes. It's a great story. But it just shows you, with dedication, with discipline, consistency, all those words, that they're not necessarily easy or pleasant, but they're irreplaceable, and they're critical.  Lisa: Yeah. And education.  Russell: Yeah. You can't achieve anything in life, whether it's physical or financial, or anything without dedication, discipline, and consistency. Lisa: Yeah. And don't over— then the big piece of the puzzle is don't overwhelm yourself. Just take it one step at a time. I'm studying cryptocurrencies at the moment because I can see the writing on the wall. This is what's coming at us is a complete new system, right? And I'm like at the moment, in that phase of like, ‘I don't get any of this.' Like, you must have been talking Latin to me. But I know if I keep reading, if I keep listening, if I keep on, I will start to pick up the terminology. I will start to understand that I know the process of learning.  I know that's how I learn languages. That's how I learn medical stuff. That's how everything I don't understand at the beginning. I don't worry about the confusion. I just let it wash over me. And then my brain starts to create these patterns of recognition. Then I start to get, ‘Hey, I understood what that person says,' and ‘Oh, I'm a little bit clever.' Then you're away and you're off to the races. Because then you start to become curious, then you start to become passionate. Then you're like, well, then it's up to you. Like how far you take that one. And that's how you do it. You don't go, ‘I'm going to sit down here and I'm going to study cryptocurrency for five hours today because that's what I'm studying.' That will blow your mind, you know? But if you just take that little bit. Russell: Absolutely. Lisa and I think as I age, I'm 53. As I age—  Lisa: Same as me.  Russell: Yeah. I'm trying to become more aware of where are my weaknesses, and I don't mean physical. Because my physical— because I've been exercising for 30 years. Physically, I'm in good shape. My blood pressure is fine. My body composition is good. My strength is good. It's all fine. I'm trying to keep my mind strong. Because my, I guess my internal fear is, at what stage in my life will I cognitively start to decline? I know it's probably going to happen. But I'm trying to keep my mind strong. Lisa: You don't need to, it doesn't need to. This is my area, man. Yeah, we'll have the talk offline. Yeah, there are lots of things. Like having brought my mum back from a massive brain damage, like she had hardly any higher function, I do understand what it takes to keep the brain going. You'd be doing a lot— I don't— because you've got a good diet and all that sort of thing, and you're exercising, those are two massive factors for brain function, you're much less likely to get Alzheimer's and so on. And with a bit of sauna and things like that, then you can lower the risk. And then you understand what your genetics and your predispositions, and then you can understand what to do to mitigate it, then you hop and things like that, like the hyperbaric which is the corner of my room, that type of thing, that will keep your brain function going.  We don't— I don't, I don't see Alzheimer's or any of those things. Because I have so many things in my war chest, if you like, with my tools that I can pull out. For example, my husband has a genetic, three times risk of the normal for developing Alzheimer's. So I bought him a sauna. I chuck his back into the hyperbaric. I watch it. I make sure he's getting good fats in his diet. I try to keep the beers down. That's the biggest struggle I've got with that one. He's training, and he's running 100 miles, and he's doing all these good things. So I don't see it even though he has a three times risk, genetically speaking. I can control that risk by a large degree, by the diet, by the exercise by the right interventions. So we're not passive.  When people— I just had another interview with another fellow Australian this morning, Kirsty from Kultured Wellness, lovely lady. And she had a dad that she talked about. He was 65, starting to cognitive decline. She changed his diet to keto, she started getting more exercise, doing all that sort of stuff. Now he's 75 and he's back teaching. And then he's fully functioning again. You don't need— you can't just go to the doctor and they'll give you a magic anti-Alzheimer's pill. There's nothing there yet. They are working on stuff. They've got some things that can slow things down. But don't rely on that. Bet on the lifestyle, and intervention, and this training, and the diet, and all of those sorts of things that you can control and you might not even develop it. Russell: Yeah, well my goal is with my training, exercise and nutrition, is to self-manage my health. Because I just feel that if I can avoid interaction, If I can avoid the need to be a part of the medical system, then I'm okay.  Lisa: I'm desperate to be apart, away from.  Russell: I don't want to have to rely on a doctor, or a hospital, or a treatment, or a drug. I don't want to. I want to self-medicate through exercise, nutrition, reading, learning, being outdoors, sunlight, all of this stuff. I want to self-medicate for as long as I can. Lisa: That's the one. That's the one. If we have an accident we'll be very glad for their brilliant abilities, plastic surgeries. Not saying that they're brilliant, absolutely brilliant. What we're falling down is in the chronic disease management. Russell: Yeah, but I also feel, Lis, that it's my responsibility to manage my own health. I don't— It's not up to the doctors and the nurses. I want them to be looking after truly sick people who are injured, or unwell, or have cancer, or— I don't want to give them like, ‘Don't look after me. I'll do it myself.' If one day, I fall over and break a leg or do something stupid, then I'll need your help. But until then, I'm happy for them to look after people that really need them. And I'll look after me. Lisa: Yeah. And this is, even from a macro perspective, we'll wind it up in a second, but I'm loving this, but the social, you know, from an economic point of view, if they understood that if they were educating people, then there would be less load on the health system. I mean what's coming at the health system, as far as diabetes, when you look at our teenagers and our children who are already obese, who are already pre-diabetic in some cases, who have all sorts of hormonal issues, and what's coming 20 years down the line when they reach their 40s and 50s. Oh, Crikey, we're in for a hard ride, then. From an economic, macro-economic standpoint.  Even in the slight, you know, the latest COVID situation, started again, but why is there not a bigger conversation around boosting your immune system so that if you do happen to get it, that you're at least able to cope? Because people with comorbidities that are least likely to come out the other side, or to come out with some serious— not always, it's a part of it's a genetic thing. But also, let's be proactive again. Let's take your vitamin D on full load. Let's look at the, you know, magnesium and vitamin C's at the school. It's a simple, easy things that we can do to boost our immunity, it's lower stress levels, it's try and do all of it. Then we might, if we are unlucky enough to get hit with it, maybe we'll be able to come out the other side without, you know, dying or having some long-term consequences. Hopefully. Where is that conversation? Russell: Well, sadly, Lis, we're not having that conversation. The simple reason for that, and I don't want to sound sceptical, but it possibly may, there's no money in healthy people. But there's a lot of money, there's a lot of money to be made, when your population is unwell and sick. And unfortunately, we're fighting big, big organisations that make a lot of money when people are unwell. Lisa: Yeah, that's just the truth. When you're on a, even a blood pressure medication or something like that, that you're on for life, that's a hell of a lot better than them giving you something that actually might fix it and you're off it in two weeks' time. That's why there's no money going into antivirals, medications and things because you'll be on it for a couple of weeks, and then it's over. So they can't really make money. Well, they can't make money out of repurposing drugs that are off-patent. You know, get into the bloody weeds on that stuff.  I think what's important for us to do is just to shine a light on the positive things that we have been through and be proactive. And be aware that there are forces at play that are not always got your best interests at heart, not to just accept whatever is dished up to you. Go and do your own research. Go and talk to this. Listen to the scientists. Listen to people who are really educated in the space. That's not me and it's not you. But I listen to the people who are at the top of this game, and then I make my decisions over what I do. We won't always get it right. But make your own mind up and be responsible for your own as best you can. There'll always be a left-field thing. The shingles came out of me even though I'm on all the right things and doing the right things. Because probably I've got too much stress in my life. And I take accountability for that and trying to mitigate that which I'm trying to do. Russell: My summary to all of that is with your own health and what people are telling you to use or take or consume, you got to do your own due diligence.  Lisa: Always, always. Hey, Russell, you've been absolutely magnificent. I want to have you back on. I'd love to talk to your wife about her journey too at some point because yeah, really excited to meet you to have you on the show. It's been a real honour. Another you know, like-minded person, keep fighting the battle. Right?  Russell: That's it, it's been great. I really appreciate you having me. Thank you, Lisa.  Lisa: And where do people go to if they want to find out more about you, what you do? Russell: The best place to just go to my website where you can understand what I do, what I've done, who I work with, and how you can connect and it's just www.russelljarrett.com.au Lisa: www.russelljarrett.com.au. We'll put that in the show notes people. Check it out and we'll see you on the other side. That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

We regularly buy our food from markets without a second thought. But to take charge of our health and nutrition, we have to ask: are these foods really good for us?  From produce to sauces, our food can be chock-full of harmful chemicals without us knowing about it. Even if you are a more conscious shopper, the industry labels ingredients to take on deceptively natural-sounding names. Fresh produce can also be laden with pesticides. So, how can we be more discerning about our food?  Celebrity nutritionist Cyndi O'Meara joins us in this episode to discuss how we can watch out for harmful foods. She shares how food production and supply have changed drastically over the years. Her advice? Check the label. She also recommends being a nutrition activist by taking matters into your own hands and doing your own research.  If you want to know more about eating real food for wellness, then this episode is for you!    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition, and mental performance to your specific genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training and coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com. We can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books, Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, dramatically decreases over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting-edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost NAD+ levels in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity, rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop Now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500 mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust: NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting-edge science) combats the effects of ageing and is designed to boost NAD+ levels. The NMN capsules are manufactured in an ISO 9001-certified facility. Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Understand how food production and supply have changed over the years and why we need to educate ourselves about it.  Learn how certain chemicals are clean labelled to become more natural-sounding ingredients.  Discover how you can improve your health by changing your diet.    Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits Episodes: #170: Dr David Minkoff: The Search For The Perfect Protein And Why So Many Of Us Are Deficient  Connect with Cyndi: Facebook I Twitter I LinkedIn    Books by Cyndi:  Changing Habits Changing Lives Lab to Table: Food used to be grown on a farm...now it's made in a lab   Changing Habits: New Zealand and Australia    Take up nutrition courses by Cyndi at The Nutrition Academy  A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights [03:29] Cyndi's Background on Nutrition Cyndi first enrolled in anthropology but subsequently shifted to nutrition.  She saw how dietitians viewed nutrition—mechanistically. So, she decided to study human anatomy instead. After university, she started doing nutrition consultations. She advised her clients to shift from the SAD (standard Australian diet) to real foods. Her approach worked wonders for her clients. But forty years later, this type of nutrition shift is no longer enough.  Due to the consumption of ultra-processed foods, many people's food sensitivities require individualised nutrition. [09:40] The Food Industry's Tricks The food industry has become sneakier over the years.  Many packaged and processed foods smell and look like real food even when they are not. For example, vanilla flavouring can be the product of bacteria's consumption of a substrate.  These substrates can be animal-, plant-, or even plastic-based.   Many food additives are a product of synthetic biology. Listen to the full episode to learn more!  [14:29] The Changing Landscape of Our Food Supply The industry now uses genetic modification on microbes, not just on crops.  Genetically modified corn produces toxins that cause bugs' stomachs to explode, which we then consume.  These toxins are harmful to the cells in our gut. In Australia and New Zealand, there is a campaign to radiate fresh produce in groceries.  Cyndi argues that this move would destroy the good soil-based bugs in these foods and sterilise the seeds. [20:06] Becoming a Health and Nutrition Activist Question the origins of your food. You can start by asking local farmers.  Cyndi started the Nutrition Academy to promote local farmers and empower individuals to choose the food they eat. Changing your food choices can be overwhelming. However, small steps are better than none.  You can start with changing your breakfast and learning to prioritise real foods over processed ones.  [26:57] Decoding Ingredients Cyndi advocates checking all your food's ingredients.  For example, quality chocolate should have no emulsifiers, as these kill the bacteria that protect your gut. Many ingredients, such as rosemary extract, sound natural but are either synthetic or heavily processed. In the food industry, this is called clean labelling.  Stop buying packaged foods. Instead, make things from scratch or buy from someone you trust. Learn to read ingredients and make sure that there are no extracts, acids, flavours, colours, and sweeteners.  [37:00] Start to Question and Think A lot of clinical studies nowadays are being funded by industries with a vested interest. Start to question information. Research credible sources for yourself.  There is always a better way—make the effort to learn about it.  Many people think that diseases come with age, but this is only because they've accumulated so many bad habits.  [43:45] Improve and Change Your Lifestyle Your body can heal and do wonders only if you change your habits.  Make sure you manage your stress and do things to lower your stress levels.  With our nutrition, we can affect which of our genes turn on and off. Simple walks or touching soil can increase the good bacteria in your microbiome and boost your serotonin levels.  Don't just stay isolated in front of your screen. Go out into nature to become healthy.  [49:38] Longevity and Wellness  In ancient cultures, people lived up to 100 years. Nowadays, many people are suffering from chronic illnesses or have a disability.  We need both a vitalistic and mechanistic view of health. However, the health system tends to isolate our conditions instead of looking at the patient's lifestyle.  [56:16] Trust and Questioning Advertising has led us to believe that if we're not well, we need to take pills.  We have to shift from a paradigm of trust to one of questioning.  Do your homework and learn more about what you're consuming.   7 Powerful Quotes 'I grow my own food. Because I think we're going to get to a point where people are either going to have to do that or put up with what the food industry is doing.' ‘You're an activist because you are choosing to buy from a farmer in your area.' ‘We didn't want to eat BHA and BHT. We don't want to eat MSG. We got smart. We would look on the label, (sic) it would have that, we'd say no.' ‘It's about reading the ingredients and making sure there's no extracts and acids and flavours and colours and sweeteners.' ‘Our body has the ability to fight. But if we do not feed it the right ingredients, if we do not give it the lifestyle it needs… and if we don't give it sunshine, if we don't give it love and connection, if we don't breathe properly, and sleep, then we are going to be in trouble.' ‘You look at a lot of the clinical studies that have been funded by the industry that's promoting it, and you have to ask yourself, ‘How independent was theirs?' ‘Once you have your philosophy, you don't fall for everything.' About Cyndi Cyndi O'Meara is a nutritionist, best-selling author, international speaker and the founder of Changing Habits, an innovative and impactful whole foods company. Cyndi also built The Nutrition Academy, an online course to teach nutrition based on vitalistic philosophies, anthropology, environment, and lifestyle.  Her passion for nutrition also led to her groundbreaking book, Changing Habits Changing Lives, and her most recent work, Lab to Table. She is also an in-demand keynote speaker, especially after her What's With Wheat? TEDx Talk. Cyndi and her businesses are multi-awarded in Australia.  Interested in Cyndi's work? Check out Changing Habits and The Nutrition Academy.  You can also reach her on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.       Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can learn how to improve their nutrition. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today I have another fantastic guest with you. Cyndi O'Meara from Australia, from the Sunshine Coast, joins me today. Now she is a celebrity nutritionist. She's an author, she's an all around amazing lady. I can't believe that she's actually 61, because she looks like in her 30s. She's just an incredible bundle of energy and an incredible mind of information. So I do hope you enjoy this episode that gets really into the weeds on nutrition, on E numbers, on the chemicals and foods, on toxins, on things that you really really need to know about. So I hope you enjoy this episode.  Before we head over to the show, just want to let you know about our Boost Camp. Now, this is not boot camp, this is Boost Camp. This is an eight week long online webinar series that Neil and I are running from the first of September, and we would love you to come and join us. This program is all about you all about upgrading your life, all about being the best version of yourself that you can be. It's about ageing like a winner. It's about longevity, it's about upregulating your brain and your mind and fine-tuning yourself to being more resilient. It's about health fundamentals. It's about understanding your biology, understanding what types of exercise to do and when and how, understanding your own body types, understanding more about your genetics, this is a really full on program that we'll be delivering live. And you can join us then we would love you to do that.  So what I want you to do is to head over to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp. Not boot camp, Boost Camp. B-O-O-S-T-C-A-M-P. I'll repeat that: peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp, and join us on this program. If you didn't catch that URL, write to me, I'll send it to you immediately. If you want to upregulate your life, have more resilience, be tougher, mentally stronger, have more focus, have more control over your life, your biology, then do join us where we really, really stoked to have you come on board.  Also, just a reminder, too: we have our Patron program for the podcast now, is open. This is a way for you to support this podcast. We've been going now for five and a half years, and every week I find incredible guests for you to listen to and learn from. This is like having a university in your pocket basically, with the best professors, with the best doctors, with the best scientists, with the most elite athletes, real high performance people. It takes an awful lot of work, I can tell you, and it's been five and a half years and I really need a bit of help to keep this on air. So we would really appreciate your support. You can join us for the price of a cup of coffee a month that really, these micro commitments that people do really help the show stay on the air. So if you like what we're about, if you like our mission, if you want to support this mission on helping people take control of their health, and be more in control of their life, then please head on to patron, P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. Right, now over to this exciting show with Cyndi O'Meara. Hi everyone and welcome to Pushing the Limits. I am super excited to have you with me again this week for another exciting installment of the show. I have lovely Cyndi O'Meara with me, who is sitting on the Sunshine Coast in Australia. Welcome to the show.  Cyndi O'Meara: Thank you.  Lisa: Fantastic to have you there. Cyndi is a celebrity nutritionist, author, runs a company called Changing Habits in Australia, which is all about educating people, from what I understand, educating people around nutrition and helping them cut through the mess of the noise that's out there and get them into the right mindset and the right things to be thinking about. So today we're going to do a bit of a deep dive into the world of nutrition. So Cyndi, before we get underway with some topics, can you just give the listeners who don't know you a little bit of background about you and what you do? Cyndi: Sure. So I graduated, well, I started my nutrition education in 1980. But I actually didn't start as a nutritionist. I was doing pre-med at the University of Colorado and one of the subjects that I did was anthropology. I did a year of anthropology and cultural anthropology and I thought, ‘Wow, it was food that was really important in the survival of humans and so that we could have babies and keep going,' and I was really intrigued by it and I thought, well I'll become a nutritionist.  So I came back to Australia and I went to Deakin University and finished my Bachelor of Science majoring in nutrition to go do dietetics and at the end I went, ‘This is nothing like what I was taught in anthropology'. So in anthropology, I was taught hunter-gatherer, agriculturalists, paleo, herders — real food. There was no margarine, there was no low fat, there was no processed or ultra-processed foods. There was none of this, and this is what the dietitians were talking about.  They were looking at more mechanistically nutrition, as opposed to what I was taught with culture and anthropology was to look at it very bio-holistically. So I decided, well, I couldn't become a dietitian. So I went back to university to RMIT. I did two years of human anatomy. That was, I kept cadavers for two years, I did all the -ology: the pathology, embryology, histology, parasitology, everything.  At the end of that, six years at uni, I went, ‘I actually know what the human body needs, it needs real food, it needs what I learned in my first year of university.' I could have stopped going to university, and done what I thought. I started to just do consultations, and I only did real foods. I didn't, I got them off the SAD diet, which is the standard Australian diet. We could call it the SNZD diet — too the standard New Zealand diet. The standard American diet and the standard UK diet — margarine, breakfast cereals, low-fat milk, bread, cheese, those plastic fantastic foods and gotten them onto real food. And the results were remarkable. So that was in the 80s.  We now jump to 2021, 40 years on. What I am seeing is a vastly different population, and vastly different problems that we didn't see in the 80s. Now, it's almost like we need to do very individualized nutrition, because so many people have food sensitivities, food allergies, they have the antecedents of their life. So they may have been exposed to a chemical, they may have eaten ultra-processed foods and so they've wrecked their guts or, whatever is happening in— Lisa: Yep, these products or something like that.  Cyndi: Yeah, I only had to change their diet from the SAD diet to real food diet, and we'd get results. I can't do that anymore. So the thing is it we then have to dive deep to find out what is the root cause of what's happening, and what is the problem? I'm not just talking on an individual basis, here, I'm talking on a global basis. 78% of the US population has a gut issue. 50, I think it's 48 to 50% of their kids have chronic disease, one or more. In Australia, it's 38 to 40 with chronic disease.  Now, when I went to school in the 60s, 2% of the whole population of Australia had a chronic disease. Now we have our kids at 38 and 40%. And New Zealand won't be any different, they will be about the same as Australia. If you get to 60, at the age of 60, which I am, I'm 61 this year—  Lisa: Wow, you look amazing! You've done something right.  Cyndi: Well, this is what I do, I eat real food, and I look the best I can. So at the age of 60, the chances of you having chronic disease, one or more, is 80%. So I'm in the 20% percentile. Because I don't do what the rest of the population do. I am not a statistic because I don't do what they're doing. If you want to be a statistic, you do what everybody else is doing. If you don't want to be a statistic, you do something completely different.  That's what I learned very early on. Don't go with what everybody else is doing. Do something different. I would believe that that's you, Lisa. I have to tell you this, Lisa. We've already had the opposite interview where I interviewed you and what you did with your mum and your book. I went through a bit of a crisis in our family and that kept, what you said kept playing in my ear. Lisa: Really?  Cyndi: What you did. You think you're doing something that should be working and your mum just stayed on that level, and then she shot up? Yeah, that's what was happening with us. So I'm well thank you for your incredible resilience, your persistence, everything you did.  Lisa: Someone to tell, someone to tell. Cyndi: Yeah, and I guess that's what I've always been like, but you, your words were brilliant. Thank you.  Lisa: And we all need people to come along and confirm that we're on the right track sometimes because we are getting bombarded with ‘This isn't possible'. I mean, I've just been working with a young man today. He's had a mess of brain injury and the doctors have told him, ‘You'll never talk, you'll never walk, you'll never do anything again'. He's already eight months into his rehabilitation, he's talking, he's starting to walk, and I'm helping him with different things now, and he will make a full comeback. I have no doubt about it, because he has a family that's behind him, he has a mum who thinks outside the box, and is willing to do whatever it takes, and those are the people that will get the results.  This is why these sort of conversations are so, so crucial to have so that we start to understand, and you have the expertise in the area that I'm sort of, know a little bit about but I'm not a complete expert in nutrition side of it. So I'm really keen to dive in. And if I can help you with your family situation, please do reach out. I'd love to help  Cyndi: We might just have a little conversation at the end of it.  Lisa: Yes, we will. I actually was going to take you through the epigenetics, I've just remembered now, and go through that path with you. But I totally agree with you. What I'm seeing in our population now is, when I was at school in the 70s, it was obesity was a rare thing. You had the odd kid who was overweight. Now you look around, and it's like the opposite is having any kid who's not overweight, and people seem to see that this is normal.  If our kids are already like this, and they're already developing things like prediabetes and diabetes before they even reach puberty, in some cases, this is like a mess of warning alarms. For me what's coming down the road as far as a health crisis and the cost that this is going to be on, you know, and human suffering, but also on the society. We have to start standing up and saying, ‘Hey, what we're doing isn't working guys, and we need to make some changes'.  The real food is definitely we we need to be starting from and the processed foods, what is it that's in processed foods that is causing so much trouble? Because isn't like a spaghetti bolognese sauce that I buy from Domino's or something, why is it not the same as what grandma made when she got tomatoes out of the garden? Let's start there, and the weird sort of stuff, so to speak. Cyndi: So in 1998, I wrote a book called Changing Habits, Changing Lives, and it was about the food industry and what food they were suggesting you had for breakfast, I'd say so breakfast cereal, and then I would explain how they make it, what's put into it, what is fortification? So I'd go through that, and then I'd give an example of what we could have for breakfast. Since that time, I have updated that book five times, because the food industry is not getting better as far as our health goes, but they're getting incredibly tricky, with additives and their chemicals to make you think you're eating food.  So it might smell like food, look like food, taste like food, but it is, no way is it food. Let me give you an example of natural vanilla flavoring. This is just one ingredient. So what they've done is that they've figured out if they genetically modify a bacteria, and they put in the smell of the vanilla bean, so the smell of the vanilla bean gene into that bacteria, put it on recycled plastic, as a substrate as it's eating, it eats it, it will make natural vanilla flavoring.  Lisa: Oh my God. So it's coals. Really? Cyndi: Really.  Lisa: That's a new one on a completely left field. That's just one little wee, soddy flavoring.  Cyndi: One ingredient: citric acid, you think it comes from citrus. They genetically modify a mold, put it on a substrate, the substrate could be animal-based, it could be plant based, it could be plastic-based. They're getting really, they're figuring out that there are bacteria that will eat plastic and produce something. So it produces like citric acid. A lot of our additives now are what we call synthetic biology. So they're genetically modifying microbes in order to make a vitamin, amino acid, or something that's going to go into your supplements or into your food supply or your medicine. Lisa: Wow, that's frightening. That's frightening what you just told me there and I wasn't aware that that, to that degree, the genetic modifying of our food is so because you know, you stay away from genetic modified crops. This is about as far as my knowledge goes in that direction, to be honest. So you're saying that the additives and the preservatives and the stuff that they're using in there is actually, they're doing this genetic stuff? Cyndi: Yeah, so they figured out that microbes, you know, nobody's gonna care about microbes, and don't like animals or rats or anything like that. No one's gonna care about microbes. They figured that if they genetically modify them, they can manipulate them to do anything. In the 1990s, a Japanese company manipulated, I think it was tryptophan. They use the genetic modification of a microbe and produce tryptophan, put it in tablets, sent it out into the market, and I think it was 150 people died and 1,500 people were injured permanently as a result of this tryptophan.  They figured out that the bug produced a toxin to protect itself from the tryptophan or something like that. So it was pulled from the market, they soon quickly figured out what was causing it. But it was all covered up, nobody talked about it. I think in the 90s, that kind of calmed that genetic modification down, not as many people were wanting to do it, but now it's at full surge.  Not everything is being made, of course, by genetic modification. Some things are being made with just making a bunch of chemicals and putting them together. So if I was to give you a strawberry flavoring, strawberry flavoring can have 48 chemicals in it. That strawberry flavoring and if one item is natural in that 48 chemicals, it's natural strawberry flavoring, not artificials. Lisa: You're kidding me. So they're just playing with these names and just putting in something natural in order to make it natural. Cyndi: They are absolute masters at it and people don't realize. I'm just telling you one thing that is happening. So if we take it to the genetic modification of foods such as soy and canola and sugar beet and cottonseed, and things like that. If we go there, these are called either Bt, so Bt-Corn, which is a toxin that the corn produces. So when the bug eats it's a pesticide. When the bug eats it, its stomach explodes. That's still in the corn, when you eat it.  Lisa: Oh my god. Cyndi: What we're finding is that while it won't explode our stomach, what it does is it explodes the, it destroys the gut cells, which is one cell thick. So it starts to erode them, and you start to get gaps in your gut and allow protein, chemicals, and things into your blood, which you don't want. You don't want that.  So then the other ones are Roundup Ready. So Roundup being ain chemical that has glyphosate  it. So Roundup Ready soya, Roundup Ready sugar beet. But now they're starting to realize that roundup is not doing what it should be doing on the pest; or not, it's a pesticide but it's more for grass and weeds and things like that. They're finding that that's not working anymore. Now they're producing 2,4-D ready crops, Dicamba ready crops. So Dicamba came into the spotlight I think was last year or the year before when there was a Dicamba ready crop that was sprayed, and all the spray floated over to a I think it was a peach or pear farmer's lands, and killed all of these trees. He actually sued, I think it was Bayer or Monsanto and I'm pretty sure he's won that case. Lisa: That's a big giant to take on. Cyndi: Exactly. This is what is happening to our food supply. We, the Australian and New Zealand Food Standards. So Food Standards Australia, New Zealand have been requested by Queensland agriculture, for Australia wide; I don't know if they'll do it in New Zealand, but an Australia-wide food irradiation process on all fresh fruits and vegetables sold in the grocery stores.  Now when you do that, what it does, is instead of you just cleaning your lettuce and, and doing a bit of a sterilization on it, which is what they do, whether it's organic or not, they have to sterilize it to get rid of any bacteria. So what they're now doing is they want to radiate it because it just doesn't get rid of the surface bugs, it gets rid of the bugs that are inside the food as well. But we need those soil based bugs, of course, they help us with our microbiome. So they're all of a sudden starting to say, we want to radiate everything. Now not only will they kill every bug in our food, what they will also do is that they will sterilize the seed. You know, when on your compost tea, three tomatoes and your pumpkin and and then you've got this pumpkin growing out of your compost, even a tomato growing out of your compost or cucumber. That won't happen.  Lisa: Oh my god, we're not going to have seed come, and who's going to control the seed like that?  Cyndi: I do my own, I grow my own food. Because I think we're going to get to a point where people are either gonna have to do that or put up with what the food industry is doing.  Lisa: And destroy their health.  Cyndi: Yeah, and it's all ultra processed foods. So the whole vegan movement even, I can read you the ingredients of what is called ‘just egg', and it's a bunch of chemicals. It's an ultra-processed food and it is not saving the planet, in actual fact is the worst thing for the planet. Lisa: Jeez, oh my god, this is, I'm all terrified now. Cyndi: I don't want to terrify you. What I want to do is make you aware of what's happening.  Lisa: Oh, absolutely, yeah.  Cyndi: Go to your local farmer, you go to your local farmers market, you support these small time farmers instead of Woolies or Kohl's or whatever you've got over there. Say, Breyer, I forget what's in New Zealand.  Lisa: New World. Cyndi: All you do is that you change the way you buy your foods, or where you buy your foods from, because then you become an activist by yourself. Don't care about anybody else. You're an activist, because you are choosing to buy from a farmer in your area. And I'm sure you already have some incredible region farmers in your area. Lisa: You think they are, they're not, how do you know that they're not using the same practices and the soils? And so, I mean— Cyndi: You talk to them, they're passionate. Go to the farmers' market, and you say, ‘Do you grow your food'? ‘Yes, I do'. Do you use any chemicals? ‘No'. What kind of farming do you do? ‘I want to actually do something called regenerative farming. Have you ever heard of that? Or I do organic farming or I do biodynamic farming, and this is how I do it'.  They're so passionate, they want to tell you. So what I do is, I grow a lot. But when I'm not growing some foods, I will go to my farmers markets, and I know my farmers now in the farmers markets. I've done the hard work. And I have something called the Nutrition Academy. And it's a bunch of people that come and do a year with me, and they become the people that do the research in their area. People come to them and say, well, which farmer should I go to at this market or that farmers market.  I want to create a groundswell of activists who say, we're not eating genetically modified foods, or anything made with a genetically modified bug, or anything that has something ultra processed in it. We're not prepared to buy from the grocery stores, because they can't guarantee me where this is coming from. So I will find a farmers market and I'll support, there are so many young people that want to be farmers, all we have to do as individual say, I'll buy a box from you, or a community supported agricultural box, I'll buy a box from you every week, whatever you're growing, I'll buy it.  Then to supplement you go to your local, organic shop, your local fruit and veggie shop, ask them the questions. It's about us becoming inquisitive. If that's what you do this, please say you're inquisitive, you went there telling me my mum's gonna be like that for the rest of my life. Surely there's something out there. What is happening, medicine's not working, they're telling me nothing's going to happen. So I'm going to go and enquire with other people. That's what I asked people to do with their food supply, is to enquire. Lisa: It's not obvious! I've looked locally, and I've just found one recently who's delivering certain times, a couple of times a week, and I have to get through, and you're like, ‘Lisa's found somebody now'. But it's always out of the way, and it's extra work, and it's, you're busy and you whatever, and there isn't a lot of farmers' markets in our area. There isn't, and I've been looking into a couple of farms here, and then they find out oh actually they're not organic, organic, even though they, you know, say that, but their seeds aren't in there, you know, there's certain practices. So there's thinks little problems, especially when you live in a rural area, and there's not necessarily a bigger place where these people can congregate. But I'm downloading a little bit more, time to dig deeper. Time, to really get into it.  Cyndi: Yeah, it will be somebody in your area, because this farm is everywhere, that they would love farming, and they would love to be able to sell their produce. But if we take it a step by step, and we do it like this, so let's say you're on the SAD diet, the Standard Australian New Zealand diet, let's just say you're on that. If you go from that SAD diet, and you just go to the fruit and veggie, meats, dairy section of your grocery store. That's a really good start. That's a great start.  Once that's in your life, then you go well, I want a better quality fruit and veg and meat maybe, or dairy. Because that many dairy farms and lamb and everything in New Zealand. So you go well, I want to better quality this, where can I find somebody in my area. So it might be six months after you've gone from the SAD diet to the, at least eating fruits, vegetables, meats, and making your own food that you go, I want better quality.  Then you go and seek out maybe a butcher that's doing the right thing or a fruit stand that's doing the right thing. So don't think you have to jump immediately. That's why I wrote ‘check it out'. Realize that it's like, let's start with breakfast, then let's do salt, then let's do dairy, then let's do grains, then let's do nuts, then let's do seeds. Let's do chocolate, let's do— so it's a 52-week, one thing you change a week. Or if it takes you longer than a week to change them, that's fine, 53 weeks. Imagine when you start, where you will be in one year. Lisa: Absolutely, it's the same with exercise is the same with everything, isn't it. Just taking it, you don't have to jump right in at the big change, just start with one change, awaken it. That just makes so much sense in just putting in a bit more effort to find things and do things and maybe start growing, I started growing my own vegetables without having much success. Cyndi: Greens in New Zealand grow incredibly. So it's about— Lisa: For most people.  Cyndi: Invest in greens, because they're like a weed.  Lisa: Yes, yeah, we've got some of those going. It's just making the time to do that, and to prioritize those, because I think I've definitely been aware of the whole processed food. So you stay away from the obvious things, but you've just taken it to another level as far as the genetically modified stuff. That's completely new to me, so that's really important. But starting where you're at, and improving it every week, and just taking on a little bit, because I'm a big fan of that in everything in life, because everything can be overwhelming.  If you get overwhelmed, then you tend to do nothing. It's better to be walking for five minutes a day than to be doing no minutes a day. It's better to be getting good fruits and veggies, and later on you work on the other pieces, if this makes a whole lot of sense. Is there a program through, that you have as an educational online content type of thing as well? Cyndi: It's in my book. So we renamed Changing Habits, Changing Lives to Lab to Table, because that's what it is, at the moment, it's about—  Lisa: Wow, Lab to Table. So I'll put the links and stuff. Cyndi: Stop being a lab rat and start making better choices for your table. And that's on Audible as well. So people can listen to it and just listen to one chapter and go ‘Right, that's what I'm going to do'. They can jump, they can go anywhere they want. They can start with chocolate, if they really want to. I just say well, where can I buy good quality chocolate that's got no emulsifiers? So an emulsifier is in most chocolate and emulsifiers kill the bacteria that makes the layer that protects you from the outside world, in your gut.  Even that little thing that you do by looking at a chocolate that doesn't have lecithin, it's called soy lecithin or sunflower lecithin, or something that's an emulsifier, even if it doesn't have that, so I teach you how to find a good quality chocolate, if that's where you want to start. Lisa: Chocolate's important, so that's a great place to start. Cyndi: Find the white salt out and getting some good salt that's not refined, hasn't got anticaking agents in it, doesn't have free flowing agent in it. They don't, you don't realize it because nobody reads their salt packet. They don't read the ingredients. So I just tell you, this is what's on it, go to your pantry, have a look. If you don't believe me, go to the pantry, have a look at what they put in. They'll have potassium iodide in there as well because that's the chemical form of iodine but you want natural iodide.  So an actual iodine is seaweed and New Zealand's got heaps of seaweed, you know. What I do is I make a salt with seaweed in it and it's called seaweed salt, and that's on the Changing Habits website and we do have a Changing Habits New Zealand website, so you can purchase it and and get it delivered to you not via Australia but New Zealand so I think it's changinghabits— Lisa: .co.nz? Yeah, usually. Okay, we'll get, I'll get my team to—  Cyndi: But mine is .com.au, and we have one of my graduates who runs that and does all the deliveries and everything from New Zealand. So that was one of my graduates from 12 months' education with me. So these people come out knowing exactly how to help people. It might be a trip to the farmers market. It might be coming into your pantry and going through your pantry. I can go into someone's pantry and I can pull 10 things out. Let's say one is barbecue sauce, another one's tomato sauce, another one's hot chili sauce. In other words, I'll pull out all the sauces, and all the sauces will have tomato as the base. All of the sauces will have a citric or an acidity regulator, so citric acid. All of the sauces will have a flavor or sweetener.  So the flavor is what makes the difference. It's not how you used to make your chili sauces or tomato sauces or barbecue sauces. This is an industry that has a base and then they just put a different flavor in, the sweetener might be a little bit different, the acidity regulator might be a citric acid, or it could be citric acid or it could be something else. And basically, you are looking at eating the same thing, just with a different flavor and a different texture.  Lisa: I would have thought, I didn't know that citric acid, for example, was a bad thing, because I thought that came, because you're not educated in this area specifically. You don't know that some of the things that sounds like potassium iodide, that sounds like a natural thing. And so being able to decode that, and I bet they do that partly differently, too, so that you actually think it's something natural— Cyndi: In the industry, it's called clean labeling. So people like me, got smart. We didn't want to eat BHA and BHT. We don't want to eat MSG. We got smart. We would look on the label, it would have that, we'd say no. So what they've done is they've renamed these. So BHA and BHT is called rosemary extract. Lisa: Really? So you're just, you just have never sure, unless you really spend some time educating yourself. Cyndi: Exactly. I read all the labels. So what they've done, rosemary extract is yes, it started with rosemary. But they pulled out one chemical out of the rosemary bark and rosemary leaf. With that, they do all sorts of processes to it, and it ends up as an antioxidant, a synthetic antioxidant, my way of thinking. But because it's an extract from rosemary, they call it rosemary extract, and you go ‘Oh, it's just rosemary extract'. Yeast extract, you think oh it's yeast extract, but it's MSG. So what they've done is rename, every single natural flavoring is the same as artificial flavoring, they just added one little natural chemical, and well purchase strategies that they put in there.  You might read turmeric, or curcumin, everyone does, or curcumin. 75% of all curcumin is made in the laboratory. It's not extracted from turmeric. The most of the population don't know what's happening. And that's why I go, just stop buying packaged foods. And you do have to make things from scratch, or you have to buy it with somebody that you trust. So it's about reading the ingredients and making sure there's no extracts and acids and flavors and colors and sweeteners. If it said tomato, onion, chili, sugar, salt, I'd be happy. I don't have a problem with sugar. I have a problem with all the other crap.  You're blaming sugar. I don't mean lots of sugar. I'd like to see Rapadura sugar, but they're blaming sugar on what I believe is a vegetable oil problem, and all these additives. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy pushing the limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patreon membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody. And we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two patron levels to choose from, you can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do, there are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strings guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much much more. So check out all the details, patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us. Cyndi: One of the things that we do know about this genetic modification that's happening at the moment in the microbes is that there's a disease out there called Morgellons disease, you can look it up. At first the doctors just thought that everybody was a little bit weird and psychotic in a way, that there's sort of mental illness. But what would happen is like, on the, a cut would come here and you'd get a pink and an orange and a yellow and a red fiber that would just come out of your mouth or it might happen here or wherever you gotta cut that would be these fibers, colorful fibers.  So the doctors all said, ‘Oh, you just been rubbing on carpet. You just, you've got Munchausen this disease,' or whatever, whatever that, or you're hypochondriac, you know, but what they're really beginning to realize is that some of these microbes, now these are microbes that make fibers. They're associating these microbes with this disease that has gotten into our microbiome. And as a result, they make them. That's their job. So I kind of figure if I'm going to eat natural vanilla, if that bug that makes natural vanilla flavor, does that mean, like, who's gonna smell like vanilla? You know, like, I just wonder. And I make a joke about it but in actual fact, it's, it's no joke. No, they are like nature. And so I choose not to support them in any way. Lisa: No. And that takes a huge commitment. But that's, that's where we need to be heading towards and like you say, one step at a time. Cyndi: Just one step at a time. And if in a year, you're doing that, or even two years, it's better than for the next 30 years or three decades, you've not changed and you have more Morgellons disease, or you're scared of a virus called COVID. It's actually called SARS-COVID 2. COVID-19 is the disease. Our body has the ability to fight. But if we do not feed it the right ingredients, if we do not give it the lifestyle it needs, such as exercises, you do running and yoga, and if we don't give it sunshine, if we don't give it love and connection, if we don't breathe properly, and sleep, then we are going to be in trouble. And we will become vulnerable to SARS-COVID 2 or whatever else comes along. Don't be scared of an invisible thing. Lisa: Yeah, and this isn't mean, this is, you know, those are all my wheelhouse. And that's what I'm always preaching on every week is one of these health fundamentals that if we, in relation to the slide, as far as you know, if we were just focusing on building our immune system, and eating healthier, and doing more exercise, and things would actually be at least better off, even if we did manage to, you know, unfortunately contract it. And we don't want, listen, this whole journey that I've been on the last five years and listening to, you know, I've had hundreds of doctors, scientists, experts, like yourself, sharing their corner of the world's knowledge.  I have absolutely no faith anymore in the authorities, or to be honest, I have no faith in the standards of medical care, I have no faith. Even though you know, like, clinical evidence, can be manipulated, and pushed in a certain way to make something look like it's good and it's safe. Then you look at a lot of the clinical studies that have been funded by the industry that's promoting it, and you have to ask yourself, how independent was theirs? There's just, there's just holes all over the place. And what I think you and I are, you know, with our different expertise as and trying to do is to get people just to question. Just to not take whatever is being thrown at you propaganda wise or whatever it is to actually question, do the research yourself, start to look at it.  It is confusing and overwhelming at times. But when you take control and when you're faced with the big situations, like I have been in my life, unfortunately few times now, not just with mom's story. I've had to face and work things out. If it was up to the doctors, I would have no uterus. I'm about to go through IVF. I'm 52 years old. They told me four years ago, I will die if I do not have a hysterectomy because I had fibroids. Now why did I have fibroids probably because I was on the pill for 30 years. But that's another story. I refused to have my uterus taken out because I believe there was another way. It took me a year to work it out. But I found a way. I found another doctor who worked out exactly which of the fibroids it was a 10 minute operation that was gone. That was a year of suffering bleeding, anemia, blood transfusions every week, but I refused to have the hysterectomy because I wanted to preserve the chance to have a child. And now I'm 52 and I'm able to go through and I don't have it, I didn't die and I still got my uterus. I've only shared that story.  These are the things we have to question. We just work things out and we're just given a white little pill and it's gonna make things better and go away. And I'm sorry, it's not how biology works. It takes time and it takes effort and it takes grind and it takes research. But if you're willing to do that, you're gonna end up looking, you know, like you do at 61. Not like most people who have autoimmune diseases, who have diabetes, who have heart disease, who have all of the horrible things that happened to us.  If we can prevent some people going down that path, then you know, our job's worth doing. If we can help one person who's listening to this just to open their eyes, and you certainly opened my eyes today. I thought I knew a lot, but I know I don't know enough. I don't know enough. This is why I spend like hours every day studying. Every day is a study day, every day is a learning day, every day is a day where I get to connect with amazing people like you that can share another piece of insight that I'm like, ‘Wow, that's terrifying. But okay, let's do something about it'. Sorry I've gone on my slip ups.  Cyndi: You did brilliantly, because this is what's happening is there will be people like you that are proactive in your health. Then there'll be people who don't want to change. They'll go get their uterus out, they'll take that pill, they'll never eat the right foods. That's okay, we can't help them. But there is a group in the middle that are inquiring and questioning and saying there's got to be a better way. I just don't know where it is, how do I find it. So they're the people that I hope to get to, because people like you are proactive, you're already doing it, you don't need me. But it's the people in the middle that are going ‘I know there's a better way, I know I can do this, but I don't know where to go and I can't find it'.  Then they get this aha. And from that, aha, they change their ways from the SAD diet to a different diet. And once they start to feel better, then they go and they start exercising, or they may exercise first and then decide on their food. Then there's this unbelievable effect that happens. Then they become vocal with their family and friends. That's what we want, is that we need them out there being vocal. It's all right, there will be people that don't want to change, and I don't want to even change them. That's just not my market. It's not my people. But I am here for the people who go, ‘Oh, I want to know more. How do I learn more?'  That's why I guess Changing Habits is really more education. Even though we do programs and protocols, and we've got food, my main thing is to educate you is to get you on a program or protocol, and then go, now that you've done that we feeling better, what are the things that you need to learn in order for you to progress as opposed to degress. If you think that you can come on a program or program with me, and go back to your old ways, and still feel amazing, you're delusional, you cannot go back. You have to keep going. So my thing is, if you're coming on that journey with me, please be prepared to be on this and to make major changes in your life that are sustainable, and for the rest of your life.  It's not the one big thing we do once a year that makes the difference. It's those little things that we do every single day, like the five minutes of walking, the banana instead of the chocolate bar, or better quality chocolate instead of a chocolate bar because they're all shit. Lisa: Yeah. We gotta find some good chocolate.  Cyndi: You've done a terrible job of making chocolate. You've bastardize the whole thing. Lisa: Oh, no. Cyndi: Yes. So this is what I want to achieve and the more people that are awoken, the less will have chronic disease, and the less will be vulnerable to whatever comes along. So we know just by the statistics that have happened in the last 16 months, that the people that are vulnerable to SARS-COVID 2 are those with chronic disease. People like you people like me, we're not even, there's not even a death rate amongst us. It just doesn't happen. But it does with people with chronic disease, and it's not the age group, it's your health. And yet they're putting us into age groups because that statistics what happens at age— Lisa: You get all these diseases, because you've been doing all the stuff for so long and there is genetic components to it and pieces of the puzzle. I partly because I studied genetics, and I know that I actually have a, I'm missing one of the genes for respiratory protection. So I'm actually in a higher risk category, but I can know that and like that I can take my vitamin D's and my magnesium, my things. Whatever's going to help me be healthier and then be armed. I mean, my house is full of biohacking, gadgets, machines, things are back standing behind me. I'm ready for battle. Because I know that I can still go down because I have a genetic predisposition to certain things. However, you know, like I was an asmathic as a kid. Severe asthmatic, in and out of hospital all my childhood.  But because I now have my inflammation in my body under control, I don't have asthma anymore. We didn't know that when I was a child, what was causing it. We cut out dairy but that was about it. My parents didn't know what else, things like gluten that we talked about back then and we lived next door to an orchard that was spraying everything everywhere. So goodness knows, but now I don't have a problem with asthma. Now is that because I've changed my diet, my lifestyle and all that sort of thing? Yeah, probably because I am missing that gene completely. So I have no sort of respiratory protection. So I am more prone to that. There's different aspects that we need to be aware of.  One of the biggest, I think, things that, something that I'm big on is stress management, because stress is definitely going to, and this is something that I've been with personally, because I'm so driven and mission orientated. It's very hard not to have a high level of stress when you're operating. So anything that I can do to lower my stress levels, while still operating at a really high performance level, I'm into. That's the breath work. That's the meditation. That's the getting the sunshine that's having my little breaks, it's having my social time, all of those things that I've had to learn to prioritize along the way as well. Yeah, but again, I'm getting off topic. Oh, I've just lost your— Cyndi: I'm using my shop in the background. You're saying the right thing. We do know, and you've already mentioned, and that's epigenetics. So what is happening above the gene that turns the gene on or off? There's nutrigenomics? Yeah. What is the food that turns a gene on and off? There's also metabologenomics, which is, what are the metabolites are made by your microbiome, which you are 90% genetically microbiome? What are the metabolites that are being made by the microbiome that are turning my genes off? What is the- like in nutrigenomics? I love it, because we know that when we go into a state of ketosis, that we're not only changing the metabolism of the brain and what energy the body uses, but we're actually affecting genes being turned on and off from glutamate together. So these are the things that we are affecting as a result of just manipulating food, that's natural dynamics. Now, when manipulate what's happening in our body, with as far as the microbiome, if you go for a walk in the woods, and you come against some spore based bacteria, so such as bacillus, though you will breathe it in, you will touch it because you touched a tree, or a rock, or you've dug down into the dirt for some reason, or whatever, you will get this and it has the ability to increase your good bacteria in your microbiome. It can decrease the bad bacteria. This is going out into nature, we've shown this.  If you go gardening in a really good soil, you pick up a certain soil based bacteria that actually improves your serotonin and will give you a feeling of calm and helps in mental illness, there's psychobiotics out there that we know that certain ones improve serotonin, some improved dopamine, others GABA others noradrenaline. So we have this thing called metabologenomics now, where it switches it, you're not going down the excitatory path of good mind, but you're going down the calming path of GABA just by manipulating your microbes. And that is nature, breathing as you know, both you and I love our breathwork. Sunshine does it. So we are giving our evolutionary body the ingredients it needs to be the best. When you do not do this and you stay in a city. You never get out into nature, you don't see the sunshine, you've got screen on. You've lost those ingredients that the body has had cues for for 400,000 plus years. We're not an modern body we're still evolutionary. Lisa: Our DNA is old. Cyndi: We'll never survive on the lifestyle that this modern world is giving us. We can still live in a modern world, don't get me wrong. But we have to let the body know that it can have these other ingredients. So hiking, you know like it's one of my favorite things to do is put a backpack on and go hiking for five or six days. Or nobody sees me no WiFi. And if that's not your bag, go out for the day. Go into a park. If you're in Auckland, you know go to what's beautiful for Cornwall Park. Pet the cows and the sheep. Just go breathe that beautiful old trees in. Lisa: This is just so basic, isn't it? You know I lost my dad recently and people know the story a little bit. But he was 81 years old. My dad was unfortunately a smoker and that's what brought him in. I could never stop him smoking and that's what ended up being his demise but he was every day all day in the garden, out in the sunshine working physically hard, and he was 81 years old. Apart from what happened to him, which was an aneurysm of the stomach. So he had arthroscopic sclerosis from smoking, but he was powerful, strong, he was exhausted, at the end of the day, he would sleep fine, he had a natural rhythm to his life: get up, work hard, eat probably too much. And not always the best things, smoke way too much. But he had this natural rhythm and he worked all day. He was in the garden all day, and his hands were always dirty, and his feet always planted on the ground. And I really think that's why he got to 81 despite having smoked for 55 years, which is a disaster, obviously.  He probably would have carried on for another, 20 or 30 years, if he hadn't had that unfortunate thing, because he lived in this natural rhythm. He was strong, powerful and fit, despite all of the stuff that he was doing wrong, but just that natural rhythm. I saw this, and I was like, wow. We are artificially stuck indoors, stuck sitting, stuck in front of screens, we need to make time to go out, have that sunshine, get that vitamin D. This is science now, like a lot of the stuff that ancient traditions were telling us to do. Everyone's that's all woowoo and eerie theory, and there's no proof. Now science is starting to bring this proof out. That's really exciting for me, because then we start to see that these guys were right, there is acupressure pressure points and there is negative and positive ionization.  There is all of these things that people have known for centuries, and, you know, millennia sometimes, and our old DNA just cannot survive if we are only in this artificial environment, not going to do well, we're going to be going backwards in our longevity, when we actually should be going forward. We've gone forward up until now, because we've had incredible surgeries and people know about germs and we've done some brilliant things. But if we can combine that knowledge of nature in our ancient DNA, and anthropology and all of that sort of stuff, and then combine it with the knowledge that we have today, there's the power. Because I truly think that within the next 20 years, we're going to be seeing people living much longer lives, like I don't think that you are going to retire anytime soon, like your average 60 year old would have done 20 years ago, now that's lifting up, right. Then by the time you are ready to retire, it will probably be 150. You know, because that's what's coming at us, the change that's coming is just phenomenal. If we can keep ourselves well enough, in the meantime, to benefit from all this knowledge that's coming down the line. Cyndi: Yeah, and the longevity is important. But the wellness is also important, as you said, because most people been 15 years of their life, and that's the last 15 years of their life, in a chronic condition or with some disability of some sort. So if we can change that, by what we're doing. We've seen ancient cultures. And it has shown that these ancient cultures, as long as they got past the age of five, they could live to 100 110 120, the body is able to do that. It's just that back in those days, the problem was pregnancy right through to the age of five. But once you got past that, the ability to get to 100 was here. We are now past that point. We can get most people past the age of five. Although, in chronic condition. That's what's scary is that they're going to have that chronic condition. And they're going to be beholden to the drug companies and beholden to the medical profession for the rest of their lives. I don't have a problem with the medical profession and the medications that they use, because they are life saving at times. But what's happened is that mechanism, which is you have a heart problem, go to your cardiologist, let's not look at your gut or you're leaving your son or anything like that. Let's just check out your heart. Oh, you've got this take that drug, you know.  So that mechanism has taken over from the vitalism which is ‘Hey, let's check your whole lifestyle out. Let's see what you're doing what you're eating, your son, your connections, everything like that. Let's start changing them before we need to go down the route of mechanism'. Vitalism is prevention. But where mechanism is needed is when, like, let's just say you've been in a car accident, you've broken a leg, get to the hospital, you don't get them asking you about your lifestyle. Fix your leg. So they're both important. It's just that mechanism has taken over from this very natural, holistic vitalistic way of living. If we go back to that, then the need for emergency care is going to get less and less or chronic diseases. We'll have acute problems that we might need another.  This is where I'd love to see the narrative go at the moment and I'm watching your prime minister, as well as my prime minister. They haven't said a thing about this. All they're doing is social distance, lockdowns, masks that don't work, the vaccine, that's the narrative. What happened, what, 15 months ago, just imagine this, that both our prime ministers said, right, we're shutting down McDonald's, Kentucky Fried Chicken, all foods that have got crap in it, we're stopping the genetic modification of any food coming into our country, because you're lucky you don't grow genetically modified foods.  Stop all of that, we're going to give you the time to go out and exercise and to give you money to go out and do this and get sunshine and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If they've done that, can you imagine the state of health in New Zealand and Australia at the moment? It would be incredible.  Lisa. That would not be appropriate. You will be pissing off a lot of big companies. And this is what you know, people need to understand, like we tend to think, and like, you know, don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fantastic doctors and things and scientists and things that I work with, who I love, and we need doctors and so on. But the narrative is that they have all of the answers and that they are the only people that have the answers. That isn't necessarily the truth. There are big powers at play. I'm going to sound like a conspiracy theorist when I say that, and that's a word that people use in order to label you and discredit you.  But let's look at what is actually going on. Like in this case with the vaccine, I don't wa

Are you having a hard time achieving good health? Do you find that no matter what you try, you can't seem to hit your fitness goals? It's not really your fault — wellness is hard to achieve when the food industry sells unhealthy food. Fortunately, there's a way out.  In this episode, Prof Grant Schofield shares how we can optimise our metabolic health in the modern environment. He discusses the advantages of being metabolically flexible, especially for athletes. We also talk about how sugar addiction and chronic stress can lead to severe physical and mental consequences. Likewise, we delve into the importance of making research more understandable for people.  If you want to improve your health and achieve a state of healthy metabolic balance, then this episode is for you!   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? 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If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. 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Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover how to become metabolically flexible and fat-adapted. Find out the truth about the keto diet and its effect on your metabolic health. Learn how chronic stress can lead to severe brain damage.    Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova Connect with Prof Grant: Website | Facebook What The Fat? Book PreKure: A place where you'll learn about health & wellness From Prof Grant's blog: Who cares about what humans have eaten in the past? How to reverse the diabetes epidemic in 3 years. Fast This Way by Dave Asprey Patrick McKeown and James Nestor  ‎Huberman Lab Podcast by Dr Andrew Huberman    Episode Highlights [03:34] Prof Grant's Background Grant liked science and sports from his early childhood. He wanted to study physical education in university, but his family told him to take up engineering. He eventually ended up studying physiology and psychology.  Grant then got into triathlons while he started his academic and research career.  He focuses on fitness, nutrition, sleep, and well being. He has written books on fasting and diets for reversing sicknesses and enhancing performance.  [10:41] Metabolic Flexibility Can Be Trained A long time ago, humans used fat as a primary fuel source when resting and moving around.  In contrast, the modern, average person doesn't burn fat, especially when at rest. Grant thinks that people can reverse this and train to be metabolically flexible.  People who have metabolic inflexibility tend to have a low supply of readily available energy.  Grant prescribed a diet and workout training programme to a client. This person eventually became fat-adapted and broke a record in the triathlon he joined.  [17:54] The Truth About the Keto Diet The initial process of getting into the keto diet is strict, but after around three weeks, however, it becomes sustainable. Unless you have therapeutic reasons to do so, you don't need to stick to the keto diet all the time.  Some people believe that the keto diet isn't good because our genetic ancestors had short lifespans. Grant and Lisa argue that the cavemen's lifespans were shorter because of other reasons. [24:18] The Addictiveness of Food Lisa thinks that the quality of our food is horrific: a lot of processed food is unhealthy and addictive. Grant also observed this through his research.  Sugar, in particular, is often overused in our food.  Sugar addiction can be especially harmful because our bodies are not predisposed to coping with it.  The food industry has many tactics to make unhealthy, addicting food sound healthy.  Listen to the whole episode to hear Grant's research and battling the food industry's tactics. [34:57] The Metabolic and Mental Health Crisis Mental health problems are becoming more and more prevalent amongst New Zealand youth.  Because of the faulty healthcare system, the youth often turn to medicine for their mental health problems.  We have a metabolic crisis involving obesity, diabetes and the brain. Our metabolic balance can be interrupted by antidepressants. Instead of taking medicine, Lisa thinks the youth should be taught how to manage their health better. [43:41] About Glutamate and Stress Our brains produce glutamate when we are stressed. There is an inhibitory system called GABA that inhibits the effects of glutamate. When you are chronically stressed, this amino acid keeps getting pumped out and can overwhelm your brain. Too much glutamate in our system can kill our brain cells and damage the brain.  You can combat glutamate toxicity through various methods. Learn how when you listen to the full episode! [58:02] Making Science Understandable for Everyone Lisa mentions the works of Patrick McKeown and James Nestor.  Grant applauds their approach of translating science into something understandable while not dumbing it down.  Lisa thinks that most health systems treat most people as idiots and don't explain the science behind health well. [1:03:26] Grant's Parting Advice It's difficult to reach a state of good health and homeostasis in our current world. However, it's not impossible. Grant advocates for everyone to use their voice to overwhelm the industries that promote unhealthy living.   7 Powerful Quotes From This Episode ‘The thing is, with addictions, of course, is that people go because everyone is not addicted to it, doesn't mean it's not a thing.'   ‘Sugar is definitely one of those things that is one of the hardest addictions I think, not that I've been addicted to anything else but it's a bloody hard addiction to get rid of and stay on top of.'   ‘We're fighting a war here, and we've got kids that are already diabetic and before they're even teenagers, and this is a coming huge disaster for the healthcare system.'   ‘We've got a metabolic crisis with obesity and diabetes, but guess what? The most important metabolic organ is your brain.'   'Now I understand the need for health fundamentals like sleep, hygiene, and movement, and exercise, and sunshine, and the right diet, because diet is a huge piece of the puzzle because your gut and your brain are connected.'   ‘We weren't designed for long-term stress. We're designed for acute fight or flight.'   ‘Let's treat people as if they have got a brain in the head. Just because they don't know the jargon. You can explain the jargon.'   About Prof Grant Prof Grant Schofield is a Professor of Public Health at Auckland University of Technology and the director of the university's Human Potential Centre (HPC). His research and teaching interests include wellbeing and chronic disease prevention. Prof Schofield is committed to unlocking people's peak performance through consulting. His motto: 'be the best you can be'. Grant has been interested in human health and performance ever since he started his career. He first took up psychology, went into sport and exercise psychology, then into public health. Prof Schofield has a diverse background and has an interest in biology, medicine, public health, and productivity management. He covers various health topics in his blog and book. If you want to connect with Prof Grant, you can follow him on Facebook.     Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn how to optimise their health. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week I have another wonderful professor with me who is going to share some insights and the latest research and I'm really, really excited for this interview. I have Professor Grant Schofield, who is the Professor of Public Health at Auckland University of Technology. He's also the director of the University's Human Potential Center, located at Millennium Campus up in Auckland. His interests lie with dealing with chronic disease and well being and prevention around degenerative diseases, obesity, metabolic disorders. He's a very, very interesting man, he's written a number of books along with his team. I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation. We're pretty frank and upfront about our beliefs, and they're very much aligned so I really enjoyed this talk with Professor Grant Schofield.  Before we head over to the show, just a reminder to check out our patron program, www.patron.lisatamati.com, and I'd also love you to check out our flagship epigenetics program. Our epigenetics is all about understanding your own genes, and how to optimize them for your best health. So looking at areas from your food, to your exercise to the what times of the day to do things, your chronobiology, that's called looking at your mood and behavior, your what parts of the brain you use most dominantly, and this is a very powerful program that has changed really, hundreds of lives. We've now used it for a number of years in the corporate space, as well as in the athletic space, as well as with people dealing with different health issues. So if you want to find out more, go to lisatamati.com and hit the work with us button and you'll see our Peak Epigenetics program.  We've also got out Running Hot Coaching. Don't forget that, www.runninghotcoaching.com is the website to go for our online run training system. It's all personalized, customized to you to your next big goal, you get video analysis, a consult with me all in the basic package and plan for your next event, including everything from your strength to your mobility workouts, as well as your run sessions and advice around eating and mindset. So check that out at runninghotcoaching.com. Right, over to Professor Grant Schofield at the Millennium Center in Auckland.  Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have a superstar. I have a guest that I'm really, really excited about speaking to because this is a very learned gentleman and an elite athlete and someone who I greatly admire. I have Professor Grant Schofield to guest. Welcome to the show. I'm glad to have you, Grant!  Prof Grant Schofield: Hey, Lisa. Yeah, thanks for having me. And, yeah, I've been following you from a distance for years. And you know, just enjoying your achievements love, and it's so great to have you on the show. Lisa: And likewise in reverse. So thank you very much. It's a real honor. So today we, I reckon we just gonna dive into some of the stuff that you've been researching and what's on your mind at the moment, because you've got so many areas that I could go down, you know, looking at high fat diets and obesity and diabetes and prevention. Then we can look at the weight paper that you've just recently released, which I've, I just studied and went, ‘Wow, that was all about glutamate and toxicity and all that'. Well, that's new, that was all new to me. So which direction and firstly, give us a bit of an introduction to you in your background and your sporting career and all of that sort of stuff. Grant: Yeah. So, like, I'd always, something that always interests me in my life is things that I was sort of good at, and I was only good at it because I like doing them was, not so much school, but science and biology. I just liked it. I just like learning about that stuff. I was right from the very start of school and this is just something that continued to happen. I also like doing sports. I was just like one of those kids who is into the sports and I was okay. It was like, every New Zealand kid plays rugby. I wasn't that great, but I played it, you know, I've got on the 15 rugby and all this sort of stuff and that sort of thing. And the school I said also had rowing as a sport, which Yeah, and they did a performance level. So it was to win the national championships. And they so, the crews I was in, trained hard. And there was high-performance aspects, as long as they were in hindsight of nutrition and psychology and training and the broad range of things that good teenage athletes get involved with.  Then of course, they don't finish as when you finish the school, and I sort of found myself, thought I'll go to uni. My dad was an engineer and he thought I should go to, I wanted to go to do physical education. That was the main thing I was interested in, and my family sort of pulled me out of it and told me I should have gone to engineering. I lasted a week in there. It obviously wasn't for me. But I ended up in a degree studying physiology and psychology, just a science degree because that's what I found interesting. And then I went from, not really been that interested all of sudden getting these A-pluses. I didn't think I was brainy. But it was just, you know, I was just used to go to lectures, and not really take notes, and just listen and ask questions, and it was really interesting. But because I wasn't that mature, there was never a point in my life early on where I was like, Grant Schofield is now capable of getting a decent job where someone's going to employ him, and he's going to make some difference to the world. That wasn't a thing, right?  Lisa: Yeah.  Grant: So I couldn't finish this one degree and go and get a job because I wasn't capable of doing any work. I didn't think I could at the time. But that's the reality in hindsight, right? So. Of course, this is the early 90s. And this sport of triathlon was coming on the scene where I live in New Zealand, there was these great personalities like Erin Baker, another woman, Erin Christie, another one, Rick Wells, and, just to a young person, and then I ended up, you know, going out training with quite large, and a lot of these people, and I just got into the sport. The thing is about endurance, especially longer, it's as you know, what, you need to be sort of mentally tough, the pain's a lot softer than something like rowing or, or, you know, measuring 3,000 meters running or, you know, 400-800 meter swimming, these are sports with a piano actually does fall hard on you. And so that sort of softer pain of the— Lisa: Softer, longer.  Grant: Longer. Lisa: There's all the pains that come with it, yeah.  Grant:  But it's more of a, it's more of a thinking person sport, right, because you get to work through that. Whereas, you know, in a 400-meter is something that you don't get to work through anything. It's just falling on you, the cut score is coming in. And so I really love that stuff. And so I just did more and more of I just want to do nothing but that. The mindset of the endurance ethic that just wants to do more and more and more. Luckily, I sort of carried on with my studies and then started my academic career. And then I became a psychologist, I'm actually quite useless at psychology because, mainly because I want to give people the answer. And of course, you know, good psychological counseling is about asking open-ended questions, reflective listening, and waiting for the client to come up with a solution, which is absolutely hopeless. As my wife would tell you—  Lisa: You're an action orientated guy, like no, there is the solution here.  Grant: Yeah. This is why this is the problem for us. It's this sort that out. By then, by the early 2000s, when it really just dawned on us that our kids didn't look like we did when we were kids.  Lisa: Yeah.  Grant: You can look. I actually was reflecting on the other day, I looked at my photo of Twizel Primary School, Year One in 1974. And, yeah, by modern standards, people will be wondering if those kids are properly fed, why the teachers are so lean. And you compare that with a modern day Year One primary school class, or later, and it's a different world we lived in.  So that was the early 2000s, that world had unfolded, right? So didn't, wasn't the same.  Lisa: It's scary. Grant: And as fit as I used to be, they weren't the same shape they used to be and we wondered why. And so that was really the field that welcomed me, which was that topic of nutrition. Lisa: Wow. So that's where you got into, yeah. Grant: Yeah, yeah, just didn't mean to. And then, you know, all of a sudden, I guess my research career's followed my curiosity around the world. So when you're, when you've got young kids, you're interested in young kids. When you've got teenagers, youngsters, young teenagers, When I was racing, elite, high performance, triathlons, we're interested in that. And thankfully, being an academic, it allows you to, especially in my field, allows you the freedom to roam around those and understand those different things. So I've sort of had a, maybe it's a short concentration span, but effectively just a curiosity to keep rolling my research career and practice. Lisa: It's really good that you can do that with an academic career sort of go go like this and still stay— Grant: You can't go off into sort of, you know, rocket propulsion or something, but, you know, yeah, as long as I stick it to the main things, which are being sort of fitness, nutrition, sleep, well being, then those sort of four things combined, have really been my wheelhouse. But in different, the settings, and the context seems to often change. And then you just, you'll do some work and you'll discover what you think an answer is, or not an answer is, it's a dead end or it's actually got places to go, then you're sort of done with it, and you're on to the next sort of variation of something.  So that's sort of been my life. So the latter stuff is really, we've done a lot of work on low-carb and keto diets, fasting, written quite a few books on that.  Lisa: Yeah, What the Fat? and— Grant: And yeah, yeah, and so that's been really interesting for me, you know, for, for reversing things like diabetes at one end of the spectrum, sort of net, sort of metabolic dysregulation, through to the other end of a high performance.  I'm an athlete, so I coach still, you know, being able to triple their ability to burn free fatty acids at a given intensity and really have a pretty much inexhaustible fuel supply. Before that, they would, you know, really run out of glycogen and struggle through the enjoyment and performance of an event. So— Lisa: Let's start with that one, just if I may interrupt you there, because it's, you know, something that's fascinated me. When I was, you know, active career, I'd never become fat-adapted as an athlete. Your take is that, should endurance athletes be always fat-adapted? Or is it a genetic thing some people are good at, and some people are less so? What is your take on it now, like, given the knowledge that you have and the experience? Grant: So I think that the normal human condition, if you wander up to a Paleolithic human before we started farming grains and wheat and stuff, that sort of hunter gatherers that they would have enjoyed this metabolic flexibility to use fat as a primary fuel source when are resting and moving around low intensities, and then as they got higher and higher intensity, then they would have supplemented that fat burning with extra energy produced from burning glucose in the body. But that doesn't exist. So commonly, and so we're just in the normal human state that lets you burn fat in some circumstances, and carbs and fat in other circumstance.  But if you went down to the local Westfield shopping mall and went to the food hall, and you you bought all those people up to my lab and put them on our metabolic card and measured there, because you can measure both breath by breath gas analysis and understand whether they've been in primarily fat or carbohydrate or whatever mix of. So we do that sort of graded exercise tissue stop at risk, just breathing into the tube. The machine's analyzing fat and carb burning, and as you increase your intensity, like running speed or power on the bike, then you just see this greater change.  Now, your average person off the street in the food hall doesn't burn fat, even at rest. So they're metabolically inflexible. Yep. And then the question is, can you train that? And can you train that even on high performance athletes? I think the answer is yes, and I'll give you a good example. There's a young fellow I trained, Matt Kurt and what I mean, saying this. I've trained him for a few years now. So he came from a CrossFit background. He was a fit young man. Yeah, he would be eating mostly carbs, actually. Lisa: Yeah, we were all told back in the day.  Grant: Yeah, totally. So he wanted me to help him prepare for an Ironman triathlon. And so I started training him and say, on an April one year so over in New Zealand winter, didn't really mention diet, because we couldn't seem to get to that but we sort of got on the on the idea that he had to go bike riding, and what running would look like, and it was learning the sports. And by December, he did his first triathlon, which was a 70.3, sort of half Ironman, with a view to going through the Ironman in New Zealand three months later and beginning of March, and he did pretty well actually, like it came fourth overall in the amateurs, so he is talented young man, and he's a swimmer. He could hit a bike, he could run a bit. But I knew he was a cub and I was like, I need to put you in my lab and we need to measure your fuel burning on that.  So in early December, we got them in there and his peak fat oxidation was about half a gram, a minute, at about 165 watts in the box. So it's not very good power, output is not going to be very fast. And he's only getting because a gram of fat has about nine calories, he's spending half of one of those a minute over 60 minutes. He's got about 400 to 500 calories an hour available from fat, and you know, he's going to be racing at 1200 calories an hour.  Lisa: Yeah.  Grant: So over several hours, yeah. He's simply is going to run into all sorts of trouble, because he's got this deficit of 800 calories an hour, he needs to find from glucose. He's got probably 2000 calories that he's got in his muscles and liver. He can consume another couple of 100 by eating gels and stuff, or bananas or something. So he's woefully short. And so it means he can just make a half, I mean, over four hours. We probably have eight or nine hours, he's going to grovel home. He's going to be a really bad mess. And that's what you see. It's always frustrated me. I got things like Ironman Triathlon, they sort of, 8-15 hour events, or 17 hour events for people.  And I think the saddest thing for me is, first of all this, two thirds of the fittest still mimics the general population, which is overweight.  Lisa: Yeah.  Grant: And virtually all of them run out of glucose or glycogen and their body, sometimes during the bike or shortly into the run. And so the whole marathon experience for them is a very unpleasant affair. They don't like doing it, they finally make it, it's been a real drain on, and they've had so much support from their friends and family over that preparation period, and it was all avoidable. So with Matt, within a mile, we're like, what this is going to happen with you, Matt. So we're stuck on a strict keto diet for three weeks, his training over that period was fairly low intensity, we didn't really go for any intensity up until after the new year period. And then just sit them on to Iron Man training, and that includes his long run and his long bike which he did weekly, and I've been doing them fasted. Yeah, so with just water. People find that a little bit extreme but his intensity is really low. We'd go out and do you know, like a six hour bike in the end that with no food, and he'd be fine.  Lisa: And that's the thing, you're adapted.  Grant: You get adapted. And so going back into the lab just before Iron Man, and he'd improved his maximum fat oxidation from half a gram a minute at 165 watts or something, to 1.1 grams a minute at 260 watts.  Lisa: Wow.  Grant: So now he's able to supply 800 calories an hour from fat, and he can do it at 260 watts, which is actually a reasonably competitive pair out, but he's going to get along at you know, 39, 40 calories an hour.  Lisa: Wow.  Grant: And yeah, and so in his first, second ever triathlon, in his first Iron Man, he does, he finishes, I don't know, the top 10 and 9 hours 22. So good effort.  Lisa: That's amazing. Grant: Yeah, we come back the next year, now with a bit more training on his belt, and he can he manages 8 hours 50. Wow. And this year, he comes back and he wins the entire age group race by half an hour, breaks the course record by seven minutes and does 8:27. And I got him back in the lab straight after that. And what we saw as further fed adaptation over that two-year period, so now he is able to burn 1.8 grams a minute of fat at 310 watts, and that's an astonishing power output. So 310 watts, yeah, you're doing 42 Ks an hour, on a decent course. And that's, he rode 4 hours 29 480 Ks, it's an astonishing time, especially for a guy who's working full time as a teacher. Lisa: That's insane. Grant: So that's what we mean by being metabolically flexible, and, and becoming a real fat-burning machine. Lisa: But what about the arguments about you know, I mean, keto diet is a very difficult diet for people to, if we're talking about the general population now, and it's quite a hard diet to stick to, long term. What about adherence to things? Do you have to be strictly keto? Do you have to be really low on your carbs in order to get the ketones and be in ketosis and to get this fat adaptation? Is there any middle ground? Can you— Grant: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's a great question. I mean, the series of questions you got there, Lisa, are just crucial. And the answer is, initially getting into that. as I'm, for that three, it's very strict. And so that's three weeks. After that, it's very much cyclical. So we generate nutritional ketosis and fat burning by fasted long workouts. And on other cases during the week, we're adding carbohydrates quite a bit. So it's definitely not a strict ketogenic diet at all. And we'll have off periods where he's just eating whatever. In fact, I have trouble trying to get him off the ketone to be a bit more loose, frankly. But that's, that's an athlete, not a normal human, in that sense. This is why I introduced the idea of fasting and intermittent fasting and I'm quite keen on that. And for me, what the fast what I tried to sort of mimic what I felt was an easy, sustainable, cyclical way for me to eat that generated fat burning. Lisa: And pursued it with autophagy? We're all talking about intermittent fasting and I do it like an intermittent fasting, a short-ish intermittent fasting. Is that going to this, I'm not gonna get into ketosis doing an intermittent fasting. Grant: So I just, I would do this sort of pattern of Sunday, try and be reasonably good on the low carb, just eat whatever I wanted. But try and be okay with it. Monday, do some restricted eating windows. So you know, might be, a longest window. Someone who's experienced like me, I could just have one meal that day, and the Tuesday I just did the same thing. So you know, and when I hit a meal I made sure it was super filling, super nutritious, I was calling that super meals. So that's my, that's my Monday and Tuesday, my hard parts of the week, right I worked hard and I concentrated hard on my freshly generated nutritional ketosis. By Monday lunchtime, despite the weekend, Saturday being quite poor, I was back in full ketosis.  I made a bit of an effort, I managed to sort of hang on to some stuff with no real particular restriction but trying to keep the carbs down for Wednesday, Thursday. By the end of Friday, everything had sort of gone pretty loose. And Saturday it was, could be, sometimes off the route is completely out of nutritional ketosis and plenty of carbs, even the odd bit of alcohol, which I'm not encouraging, by the way, but that just seems to happen sometimes.  Lisa: Yeah. And we've got to live, too, Grant: Yeah, yeah. So I'd be completely out of ketosis and in no shape for that at all. But by Monday morning, I'll be back in again. So I just get this period.  Lisa: So you can do that. It's been my question today is like, do I, if I go to keto, you know, go the keto diet. Do you have to do it as a religion? This is me. And then you get people like Dave Asprey and and if you read his book, Fast This Way, and that, he talks about cyclic keto, and how that's even better than just being straight keto, because keto itself can have some negative benefits. Dr Grant: Yeah, I completely agree. And so unless you're wanting to be on keto, for some sort of therapeutic resume, I said, you know, glioblastoma, brain cancer or brain injury like a TBI, I think so. Interesting thing, some other cancers, or you're in chemotherapy, then I don't see any reason to be in that state all the time. But the point is having a bit of bollock machinery to be able to be and easily get in and out. My hypothesis is the Paleolithic one, which is really that humans are metabolically flexible, it's the normal human condition and to see modern humans that have really lost their orchestration of the metabolism to, to burn fat as a primary fuel sources as a sort of denying your own humanity type situation without being too dramatic about it, really. Lisa: But yeah, if we, I was reading one of your blogs, and you hit another, Dr Lisa Te Morenga, I think it was, saying, oh, but you know, like, if we look at from an evolutionary perspective, the caveman because this is an argument that I've had with people too, oh, but the cavemen didn't live very long, so therefore, it's not a good diet. To say that that's, but that's not a bit that helped us survive till now. You know, like we— Grant: I think that's a complete straw man of an argument, by the way.  Lisa: Yeah, I think so too. Grant: I mean, I think, you know, I mean, first of all, while the average lifespan, is fairly low for people, it's just for other reasons!  Lisa: It's for other reasons.  Grant: So if you didn't have those reasons, your actual survival was pretty good. And actually, the important thing to remember is that Paleolithic humans didn't have chronic disease. So they didn't have this, these, what is it a New Zealand at the moment, 12 years of disability in their life before they died, which, so subtract 12 off your lifespan, to get your health span, to health span, span with the same thing. And also question about that. Lisa: We don't have infant mortality, like they did. And we didn't have lions chasing us, and we've got all these other things that make us live longer. But now we have to take even more care of our metabolic state, in order that we don't have these long term. And I mean, I've been living with the consequences of mom's metabolic disorders, leading to an aneurysm, for the past five years, and trying to undo the damage. You know, what I'm talking about is like, in that decline that we see with so many people for over decades, sometimes, and it's just a horrific way to go out for starters. Grant: You know, I don't think anyone, if you ask them when they're in good health, about how they want the rest of their life to track, says they want to be in poor health with a low health span. I don't think that's a topic that people raise as being a good thing.  Lisa: No.  Grant: It's my experience. When I ask even people who aren't doing many healthy behaviors of what they want, then they'll say health, family, friends and happiness, whatever that means. But they, yeah, Lisa: yeah. And I think this is the discussion that we need to be having, so that we find out what the optimum diet is. People I know, I've struggled with my diet over the years. One of the reasons I started running was because I wanted to eat more, because I love food. And then, then I suddenly, at some point, I realized, this hypothesis of calories in calories out is absolute bullshit. This isn't working and that really came to you know, people who hear my podcasts and hear me say when I ran through New Zealand, and I just suddenly woke up. I was running 500 kilometers a week. Yeah, and I was getting fatter because I was in a complete state of chaos. You know, my hormones were up, my water retention, all of that sort of—  Grant: High amount of inflammation, probably.  Lisa: Huge amounts of inflammation. And I ended up flaccid, losing muscle mass and getting fatter and having a slower metabolic rate. I could have sat on the couch and eaten chips and gotten better, you know, in shape?  Grant: Yeah.  Lisa: So that's when a light bulb went for me, and then it also had other reasons like genetically I'm not really made for the long distance stuff, I'm more the high intensity, shorter, sharper, is more suited to me. So I was doing that wrong as well, because some people, it's better to be doing the long. But I think having these discussions where we really dig in, and you've done the research, you know, what, from an evolutionary perspective, what we need to be eating. The state of our food now is horrific. Then you, you add into all that the whole addictive nature of all the stuff and the additives, or preservatives, the MSGs for all of the sugars that are added to our phones, and people are up against it. Like, you know, you can't even— Grant: Yeah, I agree. Those two topics that might be worth going into those, I've got two— Lisa: Yes, please. Grant: —sort of bases, working in both those areas, the first you mentioned, like you go out, the state of our food supply. So what we've been doing recently is we've been going to primary schools around the place. And we've been taking photos of all the year sixes' lunchboxes. And whatever you think, particularly on what we call that social gradient, that sort of tipping of rich versus poor at the bottom end of that, whatever you think the food supply's like, I don't care what you think about how bad it is. It's worse than you think.  Lisa: Yeah.  Grant: I actually cried, I actually physically cried. Lisa: That's what our kids are getting to eat every day.  Grant: Yeah, and how that's not a priority. Just remember that the biggest cost to our healthcare system for our kids is having to anesthetize them to extract teeth because they're rotten at age five, and we can't walk around too much if they're not anesthetized. So yeah, I mean, what society treats its most vulnerable like that? Just one little rant: in kids healthcare, we have to go and do fundraising and buy raffle tickets to pay for the hospitals for kids. And we don't do that with adults. That sort of fundraising for that is despicable. It's not a government that cares. Lisa: Not to mention the whole bloody ambulance service. Grant: Yeah, there's all of that, wouldn't I fund that? There's all of that stuff as well. So that's just a mess of how, frankly, Ad the second thing is I've got another student who's just really got into this, the addiction side of food. And as a former psychologist, she goes through and look at the, some, you know, use this Diagnostic and Statistical Manual DSM, DSM-5 is the latest version, which is a way of characterizing disorders.  And you look at the substance misuse disorder, which is really around addictions. And you know, if you change the word alcohol or methamphetamine or tobacco for sugar, yeah, then, you know, the sorts of things you know, sometimes feel withdrawal sometimes. I eat more than I should change unprofessional behavior and makes things worse in my life. You go across all 11 criteria, and you go, Yeah, it's pretty plausible. That's a real thing. Yeah. And the thing is, with addictions, of course, is that people go because everyone is not addicted to it, doesn't mean it's not a thing. So there's this, there's a lot of alcohol drunk where people don't turn into alcoholics It doesn't mean there's not such a thing as alcoholics. And there's, you know, for many people, it becomes a substance they can't control using and I feel the same things about sugar in your ultra processed food in general really. Lisa: Yeah. And the sugar I mean, the I mean like people like you I know you've done a lot of work with a Pacific Island population and Maori and so on, we have a predisposition to you know, not being able to cope with the sugars and more cardiovascular disease and more metabolic disorders. So even more Prater the stuff because we've already and haven't had I don't know hundreds of years of of having it to a certain degree in I mean, I've struggled no sugar is definitely one of those things that is one of the hardest addictions I think, not that I've been addicted to anything else but it's a bloody hard addiction to to get rid of and stay on top of. Grant: Something like smoking or alcohol like the absence of is part of it is hard but just slightly easier because it's contained whereas sugar's so ubiquitous in the food supply, you can't stop it. It's very hard, you know, all of a sudden you put some chili sauce on your something and you're damn near 75% sugar, you know, like? Lisa: You don't even realize it unless you start baking them and making everything from scratch.- And then you know, not to mention all the MSGs and the additives, preservatives, emulsifiers that are you know, destroying our guts and causing us to want more. I mean, there's a real reason why you can't eat one chip. If you eat one chip, you've eaten the packet, Grant: Well, that's certainly my experience. But strangely, and I had an argument with a dietitian the other day about this, there's a total open quote and short of eating. And it's like her hypothesis was, well, the whole reason we I was like, Look, there's no point having salted chips in my house, because they'll last five minutes, I'll eat the whole lot. Yes. Oh, no, no, no, the way you should overcome that is just have dozens of packets on there and just eat yourself silly and then you'll get over it. That's just bullshit in my experience  Lisa: Pretty much done that, and that didn't work. That doesn't work. I've heard that theory too. I think that's absolute rubbish, and not something that I'd recommend for starters, because you're gonna start on an either like, that's like, you know, a little bit good, then we must have just have some more.  Yeah.  Lisa: That's ridiculous. Really, they still think that. You know there's a whole movement?  You're kidding? Okay. But how do we help people? Because people are unaware of the addictive nature of their food and we're so like, I don't have a big garden full of organic veggies. I never time, all the knowledge and I used to having my dad used to do my garden and then it was good. But now I don't. Most of us don't have access to good quality foods. What the hell do we do? We go into a supermarket and it's just so easy to pick up a pre-made sauce, you know, tomato sauce, or Bolognese sauce instead of, you know, buying a bloody lot of tomatoes and making it. But yeah, but we've fallen into this trap. And now we're addicted all of us. Because the big food industry wants you to eat more of its crap. Grant: Yeah, they've conspired both on research and practice. And then just in all practical ways. In fact, I wrote a paper with a couple of superstars actually a guy, Aseem Malhotra, who's a cardiologist, in London, and Rob Lustig, who's pretty famous, a pediatric endocrinologist from San Francisco about the the tricks that the food industry has pulled, which are pretty much the exact same ones as Big Tobacco have over the years, you know, creating bogus interest groups, false advocacy, sponsoring athletes, list goes on. Lisa: I'm a part of that machinery, unfortunately, you know, when I was a young athlete being sponsored by Coca Cola— Grant: I didn't, I was told, I was told not to come back to, I'm in New Zealand. I spoke there one time, a couple of years ago, because I had to guard the sponsors product, which was Nutrigrain, Kellogg's Nutrigrain, which is four and a half staff health rating food, that's, you know, a third sugar. It's just a disgrace. Yeah, that was not welcome again. Lisa: When you see famous sports teams, I won't name any, but they're nutritionists on the telly telling you to eat stuff that really is not what you want your kids eating. And you're like, ‘Wow, that's wrong on so many levels', you know? Grant: I'll tell you a story about that. I don't know if I should tell this story. Years ago, I gave this talk on a sort of update on physical activity and health for the first-time executives of Coca Cola over this Waipuna Lodge in Auckland. I'd finished my talk, I was just at the back. And the head and corners in and go on. The next guy that got was a corporate guy from the US about how they're going to discredit various nutrition people and active tactics. I went around, and I sort of sat there and listened to it. And I was like, ‘Oh', and then about halfway through, I was like, ‘Shit, I'll make sure I get out of here alive'. Yeah, but there was like an active discussion about, about the tactics to deal with scientists who were dissonant to the view, to the worldview, which I thought was a really interesting, Lisa: This is a reality. And this is what's happening not only in the food industry, it's also happening in the pharmaceutical industry. It's also happening in many industries that we in the public are not, and when you've got people like you that are brave enough to stand up and say stuff, you get attacked. I'm quite surprised that my podcast hasn't been taken off here yet. But anyway. Grant: Yeah, that's right. And yeah, it will heavily wind but people will be, there's forces in play there. You don't want to get too conspiratorial because it sometimes requires a degree of organization that doesn't, that we're capable of, but yeah, I think in the food industry case and pharmaceutical industry, the evidence has been there for a long time. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. And I think, my approach to it now is like, we are possible, light a candle toward the good information rather than fighting and banging your head against the, you know, because otherwise you can end up in a very bad place. But okay, so we know that there's all these addictive forces, if you like, at play. And so because you just look around town, you know, in the obesity and they are boys they're looking like girls and, you know, the hormone regulation is just obviously affected and fertility rates are going down. We're fighting a war here, and we've got kids that are already diabetic and before they're even teenagers, and this is a coming huge disaster for the healthcare system when you're in public health. Grant: Yeah, yeah. The present one that I've become much more interested in because it's, I think it's become more obvious today for a bunch of reasons. I'll tell you a few stories as mental health, particularly Youth Mental Health. I've been an academic for a few decades. And, you know, a decade ago or two decades ago, okay, students will get seconds, some would have some mild mental health problems, but it wasn't really a thing that you would see very much. Now at the moment, all the time I get students, students like it's dropping out of the degree now because of their mental health.  They've got anxiety. And these are really smart, intelligent, switched-on people with, these are the top of the socioeconomic ladder, we don't know how much worse it is at the bottom. I didn't even get there in the first place. That youth suicide rate in New Zealand, it keeps getting talked about as the tip of an iceberg for a major problem. One of the women that I work with, mid-20s, beautiful, intelligent woman. Yeah, we're talking about SSRIs, antidepressants, because I've been on those I could have knocked me over I said, are, you know, is it a common thing for your friend group and that sort of thing? She goes, I pretty much everyone I know is on them. Yeah, yeah. And, and so we've got this—  Lisa: It's a good sequence, isn't it?  Grant: Because the brains are metabolic. We've got a metabolic crisis with obesity and diabetes, but guess what? The most important metabolic organ is your brain. Somehow, again, here we are, asleep at the wheel, we've got this, you've got this treatment gap. So even if we could treat them with anything effective, which is doubtful. From our current system, yeah, they can only treat half the half of the 910,000 people in the country of 5 million. Because 910,000 is the number of serious mental health problems. Wow. Half of them don't get any treatment whatsoever, because there is no treatment. You bring the mental health crisis line, which we've had to do. And they will say, are they killing themselves right now? And that's just like, no, that's like—  Lisa: ‘Okay, we've got time.'  Grant: Yeah, then okay, we're not doing it, I think. And we'll go to your doctor. If you go to your doctor, you know that there's a nine month wait to see a psychologist?. It's just unacceptable. Lisa: And what's the answer? The course, the easy answer for the doctor is to give them a SSRI. Grant: Which doesn't work very well. No. neuroplasticity, if they're a young person, causes them harm.  Lisa: Closes down hormones. And does it different.  Grant: Yeah, 100%.  Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on www.patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two Patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us. Grant: So to me, the unacknowledged metabolic crisis here we can see obesity. We can measure diabetes. Yeah, and those are problems. But you know, to me the most perverse one, especially having, you know, teenage kids myself and that sort of thing is this youth mental health thing. It's despicable. Like my dad, yeah, good for him. He had metastatic prostate cancer and was sorted with this keto diet, but the amount of access to expensive treatment, he was able to get in his 80s. Compared to a young woman in her early 20s, who has a serious mental health problem that's going to affect her, and even around for the rest of their lives, who can get none. It's perverse, who spends their money on health that way? Yeah, like, I want my dad to get his treatment and get better and everything, which he has, but, what sort of society prioritizes that over these young people? Lisa: Yeah, and what can we do? Like why, there is a lot of I mean, I talk research a lot, and I know that your research is also pointing in this direction, that there's a lot of health fundamentals that we can get right, that can actually help people without costing anything even, without having to be a pharmacological intervention. How about we try to teach people how to manage themselves? And I mean, I've had, I was on antidepressants for over 20 years, and I could not get off them, because they are addictive. It took me three years to get off them, and thank God I did. I, in my early 20s, had relationship crises, was put on them, just stayed on them because I didn't know any better.  What are, what implications that's had for me, and then trying to get off them. And of course, your body starts to downregulate your own if you're not producing your own. I've got off them now, and I'm fine, and so on, and I'm helping other family members off them. But that was the first port of call. Now I understand the need for health fundamentals like sleep, hygiene, and movement, and exercise, and sunshine, and the right diet, because diet is a huge piece of the puzzle, because your gut and your brain are connected. And there's a lot of, like you say, a fix. When you have a bad diet, and you have bad nutrition, you're going to have more mental instability, if you want to put it that way, you're going to have more problems, than if you're on a good, really robust, solid, good diet. That's going to affect your mental health. And what are our kids, they're not giving any of that information, or any programs around it. Grant: Yeah, and you interfere with one aspect of metabolic homeostasis with an antidepressant, and you're surprised that it doesn't work very well, and there's unintended consequences. What we're trying to do is, and humans, I think, all want to be in the state, we're trying to return ourselves to a sort of metabolic homeostasis where things are balanced and well-regulated. For the most of the body, that's the primary target, there is a sugar in your blood and the insulin in your blood, because if those aren't right, then you're an inflammatory environment and pro-growth and no chance to, you know, being that autophagy of tightening things up. So that's the big metabolic picture. But in the brain, I've just started to stitch together a much more, I think coherent view of what's going on.  Because the balance of neurotransmitters in the brain is important. I just think with the low fat revolution, we pick fat, not carbohydrates. We pick the wrong one of the three. Yeah, well, this is alright, we pick serotonin as the neurotransmitter to manage, we need to get it back to where it started more quickly. That's what reuptake inhibitors do. And actually, sorry?  Lisa: You've written a paper recently on glutamate and its role in all this. Can you explain about it?  Grant: I have, six months ago, I had heard of glutamate because I, trying to, from psychology, and frankly, I'd forgotten what it did. Until one of my smart students reminded me that glutamate is the most important and most prevalent excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain. It's about 90% of your neurotransmitters, it runs in tandem with an inhibitory system called GABA. And so these two things operate together. The inhibition fine tunes the excitation. And not only that, the glutamate gets recycled onto glutamine and then back into GABA and they rely on one another to be in a sort of, you know, good, healthy relationship, right?  And so what happens is, when there's over-excitation, which chronic stress does, then glutamate because it's excitatory neurotransmitters, just keeps getting pumped out. Pumped out, pumped out, and it hits its receptor in the other side of the synapse, between neurons. That receptor, it's called the NMDA receptor, it's downregulated. So it stops seeing the glutamate as much as it could be, which causes even more glutamate to be produced. And then this glutamate starts to seep out of that cleft and to just general space. And the trouble with it—  Lisa: It's toxic.  Grant: It's toxic, and this is called glutamate excitotoxicity. So this is not a theory, this is a thing. And it starts to kill brain cells, and the trouble with it, first of all it atrophies neurons, which is never good, and they're not there anymore when they die. But those dying neurons themselves spill out glutamate, into more glutamate into the space, and you get this downward spiral of—  Lisa: Neurodegeneration.  Grant: Neurodegeneration, exactly right. And so the most interesting thing in my mind about this, and this is why I'm so excited about it is because, and you'll see this. So the most obvious is a concussion or mild TBI, traumatic brain injury, is that what causes your initial brain cell death is just an insult, right? You bang your head, right? So you get that glutamate excitotoxicity. The initial effects of the concussion is mild, but the long-term effects of the concussion because of the glutamate excitotoxicity are severe. That's why concussions get worse and worse and worse for time after they've happened. Lisa: Okay, thanks that somebody's saying that! Because people go to the hospitals with a concussion and they go, no, there's, you've had a mild concussion, go home and rest. And that's it. It's like we there's so much we can do— Grant: 100% there's so much we can do. And I think we already do it when it gets really severe, right? So if you're in hospital with ischemia, lack of oxygen in the brain from a heart attack, or sometimes in some hospitals, that neonatal hypoxia, so newborns become deprived of oxygen. One way that they deal with that is they induce hypothermia, because cold exposure, especially in those areas, helps reduce glutamate. And they provide intravenous magnesium because magnesium antagonises as a receptor and allows glutamate to get back to its homeostatic levels more quick, and it's highly effective. And the animal studies are very, very convincing. And it's near a clinical practice for things like spinal cord injury.  And then you start to think about other ways that the brain gets damaged. So Alzheimer's and dementia is an interesting one. So for other reasons, including high glucose, we start to lose brain cells. But as soon as you start to do a little bit excitotoxicity, then exacerbates the problem massively. A mild or severe stress, which results in post traumatic stress disorder, is another way of damaging the brain initially through chronic, elevated glutamate but it rolls onto itself. And this is solved, then it's not a problem.  Lisa: This is why stress and trauma—  Grant: And chronic stress, you're just stressed out, your fight or flight response is up more than it should. And it goes on a long time. The two to three minutes that it's designed to be up for is actually days, months, years, same thing. And so you've got these different pathways, getting brain damage. Lisa: Brain damage is happening as well.   Grant: When you take, if you if you scan people with major depressive disorder, you autopsy people who've committed suicide, then you see severe atrophy and things like the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex, important areas. And it's caused by chromatic toxicity. But the reason why that's interesting is that there's a lot you can do about it. And so we mentioned cold water therapy, just getting in cold water, especially you can breathe slowly and deeply through your nose, which downregulates the nervous system, as medical therapy for depression, right? Yeah. So and potentially I think for TBI and concussion and Alzheimer's and that sort of thing, because it helps with that.  But so is aerobic exercise for the same reason. So is a whole range of nutrient supplements, particularly magnesium, particularly you have to take them in the form of magnesium citrate or magnesium l-threonate. And the clinical trials of magnesium citrate and depression is a more effective medication than an antidepressant. And there is no real side effects. So magnesium, zinc, omega-3 fish oils, B complex vitamins, vitamin C, vitamin D, all anti-inflammatory, antioxidant type. Lisa: And all stuff that I'm on every day, and my mum's on with her brain injury on, all the time.  Grant: That's right, because and they are downregulating glutamate transmission and achieving a glutamate GABA balance in a better way, as does presence of ketones in your blood occasionally, as does any sort of diet that's anti-inflammatory, and any diet that's inflammatory, exacerbates the problem. So— Lisa: So for things like brain injuries, like someone like mom who was in a coma and they were putting a ba- basically a glucose strip into the, you know, into feeding tubes. That's just like causing more damage than if we'd had ketones present if we'd had— Grant: 100%, because you're, there's also a fuel cri- an accompanying fuel crisis on the brain where it can't— Lisa: Uptake the glucose. Grant: —uptake the glucose in the normal fashion, but you can use ketones. So you've got the glutamate part going on, and you've got the glucose fuel crisis. So you know— Lisa: And isn't the same with Alzheimer's, and they, it's a, when you get insulin resistance, you also get the glucose not being able to be uptaken in the brain, and therefore the brain starving for glucose. Prog Grant: Yeah. So ketogenic diet for that group is actually a pretty therapeutic diet, that would be the one situation that would be, you know, granted, for keto is hard. I mean, obviously, it's a hard population group to work with them on that, but that doesn't make it not therapeutic. That's another whole— Lisa: No, and that's what I put, you know, like with mum's brain injury, once I started to realize that from the research I was doing. I was doing I had her on as good as possible, keto diet for that first couple of years. Not so much now, because she's got autonomy so it's harder regulate. But she does do intermittent fasting, and she has got all the supplements, and she has got a very, low-carb diet, as much as I can get it to do it, when she's not sneaking things around my back. But this is just so crucial for all of these degenerative diseases, and I'm really excited about this glutamate thing, because it's only just come on my radar through your research, and I think that this is perhaps gonna go to the next level. Are you continuing the research on this?  Grant: Yeah, and I'm really interested in, I haven't been that interested in micronutrients through my career. I sort of felt while you're eating whole foods, you know, that should be the template. And I still think that, but I increasingly started to think, especially my colleague, Julia Ruckledge, who's a professor of psychology at University of Canterbury, in her work with micronutrients. She uses fairly high doses, but how effective those have been in her clinical trials with various aspects of mental health. And just as I see also random other outcomes like they just happened to be doing a clinical trial when the Christchurch earthquake happened, and they're only halfway through it. So the randomization wasn't quite complete.  They noticed at the end of the trial that the people in the micronutrient supplementation group, about 19% of those ended up with some sort of post traumatic stress from the Christchurch earthquake. Lisa:  Yep.  Grant: Those without, who are in the placebo group, 69% have post traumatic stress. And this is consistent with other research around, you know, the stress of natural disasters, natural disasters, and that sort of thing. And all sorts of things go wrong in the brain. And it's just, there's a mess of effects. If you could get this from a pharmaceutical, the pharmaceutical company would be all over it. But, you know, inexpensive micronutrients. So, you're interested in those really. Lisa: So that improves your resilience. Basically, you've got the right vitamins and minerals and things in your body to do the work that's needed to be required. Have you ever heard about the research of ketamine and post traumatic stress? When that ketamine is able to stop the formation of the memories, the traumatic-ness if that's a word?  Grant: Yeah, so, so yes, yeah.  Lisa: Because it's part of that there'll be part of that glutamate thing, wouldn't it? Grant: Ketamine is, antagonizes the NDMA receptor, as the same mechanism magnesium roles a play, plays a role on. And so ketamine is a little bit more of a difficult substance to think about it because it's an analgesic and it's sort of that pre-anesthetic and acidic and it really spaces people out. But you're right across PTSD, single treatments have been shown to be highly effective. Single treatments with major depressive or otherwise intractable have shown to be temporarily effective. The most interesting one, for me, I was just talking to an ethicist the other day about this. He was talking about ketamine with chronic pain sufferers, and about half of the people they treat with ketamine with chronic pain, they have an instant and complete alleviation of the chronic pain. And they give them ketamine at a subclinical dose for five straight days. I don't know the ins and outs of that.  Lisa: Because it stops the pathways from— Grant: I don't know what, I'm think

You've heard it before: go hard, go long. But do we need to go hard all the time? Many people think that harder is better. However, overtraining and overexertion can reduce your gains and also be detrimental to your long-term health. Let go of this mindset and take on a healthier view of your body. Legendary long-distance running athlete Lorraine Moller joins us in this episode to talk about how training and racing should not be about winning at the expense of your own body. It's all about your personal journey of learning more about yourself and growing from it. With the Lydiard approach, Lorraine shares how her career was mostly injury-free. Her body's performance is stellar, proving the merits of her training! If you want to know how you can adopt a holistic approach to your training, then this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. 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Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how the Lydiard approach to training is a safer and healthier way. Discover the ways we can achieve peak performance and how to remove the obstacles towards it. Understand the ways your body adapts and why it's essential to listen to it.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  On the Wings of Mercury by Lorraine Moller Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes:  Episode 27 - Gary Moller - Functional Nutrition Consultant, Elite Age-Level Mountain Biker   Episode 189 - Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova Episode 183 - Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova Episode 194 - Inside the Mind of New Zealand Olympic Runner Rod Dixon   Connect with Lorraine: Lydiard Foundation | Email   Episode Highlights [05:19] Lorraine's Background Lorraine grew up naturally active and part of nature. She was engaged in the community and local athletics.  At some point, Lorraine became more interested in her school running events and just kept going.  During the 60s and 70s, being a professional athlete wasn't a career choice. It was commonly discouraged and seen as for men.  When Lorraine's talent was discovered, she was brought to a neighbouring town to train. She competed against women a lot older than her. By 16, Lorraine was representing New Zealand. Listen to the full episode to learn about Lorraine's running journey!   [14:37] The Lydiard Approach to Training  The Lydiard approach to training is primarily based on endurance training.  Building your aerobic capacity is the core of the Lydiard approach.  In a way, Lydiard is the father of periodisation. He found what worked and incorporated it into training.  Lorraine shares that you need to understand the principles first then apply your own perspective in training.  [19:52] What's the Overall Picture? Some people get lost when looking at the details. You need to know the overall picture first.  When you don't understand the overall picture, you may overshoot the mark and get burnt out.  We have a culture that thinks more is better.  But training can give you more than the capacity to win.  It's really about the inner journey taking place and what you're learning along the way.  [24:25] Take It as a Personal Journey As you're growing, you are influenced by external factors like other people's expectations.  But you'll also reach a point where you start dismantling these expectations to uncover your true self.  Running was a choice Lorraine made for herself. Through this, she developed a deep connection with her father.  When Lorraine didn't do that well, she kept things in perspective.  She always came back to being in love with the journey of the race.  [28:51] From Track Athletics to Long-Distance Running In Lorraine's experience, long-distance running doesn't make you slower.  You'll need to do the work to run faster, but long-distance running lets you sustain your fastest possible pace.  The body responds to whatever stimuli it receives, which is why a holistic approach is vital for achieving the best results.  The Lydiard training, for example, has different phases for training that consider more than just your endurance.  Don't neglect the foundational elements of mobility, coordination, and strength. [39:51] Let Your Body Adapt  The Lydiard training first started with helping people with cardiac problems fit enough to finish a marathon.  The approach is considerably different from the ones professional athletes consider. But, the Lydiard training is safer long-term.  People can adapt to different situations. You can direct your body into what you want to be.  Pay attention to your body, especially when it gives danger signals. Learn to back off and give yourself recovery time.  Burnout and overtraining usually come from a lack of confidence and trust in your own body.  [46:46] What Keeps Us from Peak Performance Hard work is redundant. Things don't have to be hard — just do the work! Lorraine feels a state of flow and happiness in races. The flow state is peak performance manifesting as coordination of body, heart, mind, and spirit.  People often don't reach this state of flow because of tension and excess energy.  If you don't give yourself time to rest when your body needs it, it will become detrimental to your health over time.  You need to identify the fine line between putting your body under strain to get stronger versus pushing it until you break. [56:22] Don't Let Age Stop You People need challenges and goals no matter their age.  Invite new experiences and learnings into your life.  Don't let age stop you from living your best life.  As we get older, we also accumulate more wisdom.  Society needs to acknowledge the value of elders more from that perspective.  [1:08:11] The Strength and Beauty of Our Bodies   You don't need to be perfect; you just need to inch your way forward on your own time.  There is a way back even if you've beaten your body with overtraining.  Your body is strong enough to regenerate itself.    7 Powerful Quotes from this Episode ‘What I did with the Lydiard system was look at what were the principles, not looking at the hard and fast rules. Because as soon as you start looking at rules you have limited yourself, and it doesn't work that way. It's an experiment of one. Your journey as an athlete is completely unique.' ‘I think the journey of the athlete is a wonderful way to get to know yourself and to be able to tap that in the knowledge and to learn.' ‘That's the beauty I think of the Lydiard training is that It is holistic. It puts all the energy systems and every type of training response in its rightful place. So that you can be at your peak on the day that it counts.' ‘And that's why you go on principles. So you look at what you're trying to achieve, and then how best to achieve it based on the level of that person.' ‘You want a cooperative relationship with your own body and it will give you the information that it has and which is better than if you're trying to perform to these external measures.' ‘We approach a lot of the things that we wish to do, or the things we wish to create in our lives from a state of fear… And then we can't get into this natural flow. ' ‘I think that as we get older, our world should be getting bigger, not smaller. You know, and, and I do think that a lot of what we attribute to old age is just bad habit.'    About Lorraine  Lorraine Moller is the only woman to have run all of the 20th century Olympic marathons for women. She is a 4-time Olympian, Olympic bronze medalist, world track and field finalist, multiple Commonwealth Games track medalist, and winner of 16 major international marathons, including the Boston Marathon.  Lorraine's career started as an exceptional 14-year-old middle-distance runner, coached by John Davies. This continued into a 28-year stellar career as an undefeated master runner. Her wide range of accomplishments earned her title as ‘New Zealand's greatest women's distance runner'. Lorraine credits her mostly injury-free career and high-performance longevity to the Lydiard training approach combined with her unique ‘inside-out process' philosophy towards competition.  Since retiring in 1996, Lorraine has helped establish charity running events in Cambodia, Mongolia and East Timor, served as vice-president of Hearts of Gold and NGO in Japan and co-founded the Lydiard Foundation, which educates coaches and athletes on endurance training. Lorraine also wrote her autobiography, On the Wings of Mercury, which became #2 on the New Zealand Best Seller List.  “Sports is a powerful spiritual path. When one seeks their most excellent self, they invite the noblest of human qualities into their lives.” Interested in Lorraine's work? Check out the Lydiard Foundation.    Reach out to Lorraine through lorraine@lydiardfoundation.org.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn why it's vital to listen to their bodies. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hello everyone and welcome back to Pushing The Limits this week. Today, I have another athlete to guest, for a change. It's not a doctor or scientist, it's an athlete. This is an incredible athlete. One of my role models from childhood, Lorraine Moller. Lorraine, if you don't know her, she's an absolute legend. She's a four-time Olympian. She won the Boston Marathon, that's a serious marathon, that one. She has won the Osaka marathon four times. She was in the first four marathons for women in the Olympics, which is an incredible thing. She also was a middle distance runner before doing marathon.  She's also the sister of my good friend, Gary Moller, who I've had on the show previously. Lorraine, she has her insights on what it is to be an elite athlete. Lorraine is still training athletes today as part of the Lydiard Foundation. After Lydiard she came through that school, of Arthur Lydiard's training style. It was really interesting to talk to her and sort of go head to head on ideas around coaching. She is available there for help if anyone wants to find out more.  Yeah, really interesting conversation with a very, on-to-it lady. I hope you enjoy this conversation. I certainly did. It's really nice when you get to meet your heroes from yesteryear, so to speak, or when you were a kid, and they're just as cool as you thought they would be. Before we go over to the show, make sure you check out our patron program. If you haven't joined already on the podcast family, we would love you to be a part of our VIP family. There are a lot of member benefits when you do, if you wouldn't mind helping us out. Keeping this great content coming to ear, we've been doing it for five and a half years now. It's a globally top 200 ranked podcast now on health, fitness and medicine.  We need your help to stay there, we need your help to keep bringing this content out. It's a huge labor of love. I've been doing it for five and a half years, and guys, I can really do with a bit of a hand. So for the price of a cup of coffee a month, it's really a very small contribution. 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This is a very powerful program that can help you sort of optimize that so go and check that out at www.lisatamati.com and hit the ‘Work With Us' button.  We also have our NMN, our longevity supplement, an anti-ageing supplement that I'm recently started bringing into the country and from New Zealand or Australia. I've teamed up with molecular biologist Dr. Elena Seranova. This is an independently-certified, scientist backed and developed product. This is a longevity supplement that is aimed at upregulating the sirtuin genes, which are longevity genes in the body and science, it's too complicated to name here. But I would love you to check out those two episodes that I've done with Dr. Elena Seranova. Also, head on over to nmnbio.nz. That's N-M-N-bio.nz, if you'd like more information and more on the science behind it, or reach out to me and I can send you a whole lot of information around it. I've been on it now for over seven months and my mom's been on it too for that period of time. I've had huge changes. Actually my whole family has, and we've all had different things that it's really helped us with. It's working on a number of levels, so make sure you check that out. Right over to the show now with Lorraine Moller.  Hi, everybody, and welcome back to Pushing The Limits. Today, I have an amazing woman to guest, certainly one of my role models, Lorraine Moller, welcome to the show. Fantastic to have you here with me.  Lorraine Moller: Thank you, Lisa. Fantastic to be here with you. Lisa: I'm excited for this conversation already. Before we got recording, we already dealt with some deep topics so who knows where this conversation is going to go, but I think it will go pretty deep. You are a legend in the world of running. You have so many, four times Olympian you've won the Boston Marathon, you've won the Osaka marathon three times, you're an author, you're still involved with running. Lorraine, can you just give us a little bit of your background for starters? When did you realize that you were this amazing, incredible athlete? What was your childhood like? Should we go back that far?  Lorraine: Usually, not in my childhood, although, you know, we were brought up in a time where we were naturally active and very just a part of nature and engaged in the community and local athletics and swimming and you know, all those things. Walked their feet and just went to the beach on the weekends and got sunburned. All those sorts of things. So it was a very lovely, free, close-to-nature sort of upbringing in my little town of Putāruru, right in the middle of the North Island, and where everybody knew everybody and it was just pretty easy-living, and our needs were pretty simple.  Those were the times when we had the quarter-acre section, with the garden out the back and like okay, go get a cabbage for tea. So you'd go cut one and bring it in. So it was, yeah, I suppose it sounds idyllic, but in certain terms that was. It was just a fabulous basis for growing up healthy. I had my trials as a kid. I was in the hospital a few times, and just that separation, and just the emotional eggs have been taken away from my family for long periods of time. It's very lonely.  I think that was, I think, you know, we have things that happen to us, and they sort of set you up. They set your story up, and then it's like, okay, go see what you make of it. So I had, I think, running for me was a real freedom. Something that just, I don't think it was something that I really decided to do. I just think it's something that took me. Lisa: It happened to you. Lorraine: One of the key events was, when I went to high school, and we graduated from the little kiddies athletics, doing 50 yards, 100 yards, you know, yeah, I met all that was. We graduated to being able to do the full 40 yards. In my first full 40 yard race at the local club, I could beat the girls who beat me in the sprint. It took me a little bit longer, but I've got your number, you know. So I was really excited by that.  So I started to get really keen and show up during the school events, and I won just about everything in the school events.  Lisa: Just naturally talented at the event, sort of.  Lorraine: Yeah, but you know, at that time, and that would be in the 60s, there was, it wasn't like the girl thing to do. It was nothing in your vocabulary. The four-bill athlete or woman-athlete, professional athlete, even, that just didn't exist back then. That was not a career choice,  being an athlete. It was even discouraged, somewhat. It was considered as a man's sport. If you did too much of it, you would become manly and— Lisa: Your uterus might fall out, as Catherine told me once. Lorraine: That's universal, you know. People tell you that all across the world I think, that yeah, that was just a popular meme. You had to wear clean underwear in case you got run over and taken to the hospital, they find out you've got dirty underwear on. Those things sort of just become popular culture, but nobody really thinks about how true they are or whether they really apply. We just accept them.  I accepted that as a girl, we didn't have longer events, that we didn't have official events. The cross country was unofficial, usually. So we would have a men's race. Then they would have a little short bill's race, but, you know, that's just the way that it was, I didn't think I was disadvantaged in any way. You just get on with what's available and go like it, and I loved it. Lisa: How did you develop, because even back in the 60s and 70s, there wasn't any official thing that you could go to. How did you actually get—I mean your later career was phenomenal. How did you actually bridge that? Was it a time change too that in the 70s, things started to open up, and or how did that sort of unfold? Lorraine: People were really kind and the club system was very nurturing. So as soon as they realized I had some talent, they took me in hand. I was taken to a neighboring town of Tokoroa, which was sort of like a big town, and introduced to John Davies, who was the bronze medalist from the 1964 Olympics in Tokyo. They wanted me to have a proper coach. I was introduced into the Lydiard training theory, from about the age of 14, and for races, et cetera. My event was the 80 yards. I really loved it, and so laps of the track.  I also did cross country. But those events I competed in, there were no junior woman. So I was competing against women who were probably 18 years my senior. I did go to my first national championships and the senior women's at the age of 14. Yeah, and I made the final. I came last in the final. We're like a mate. We're pretty darn good. You know?  Lisa: Yeah. You were 14?  Lorraine: Yeah, sort of, like hanging on, I can remember coming around the straight. I had two people behind me, and I could just see them going, ‘I'm not letting this kid beat me.' Yeah, threw me off, but you know. I was going—representing New Zealand from the time I was 16. That provided opportunity, and that was so damn exciting. Just to be going overseas, and wearing the silver uniform, and getting on a plane and going somewhere, and it was just the most amazing time, and I absolutely loved it. I was put into a competition at a time when I was young enough not to have any respect.  Lisa: You had no idea what was coming at you yet.  Lorraine: So I sort of figured I could run with the best of them. Yeah, so that was sort of part of my make-up or my set up. Which really, you know, it just went from there, until finally, I sort of took off on my own and went to the US and just sort of, seeking greener pastures. That makes a big wide world and yeah.  Lisa: Oh, wow. So tell me a little bit, like Arthur Lydiard. What was he like? Tell us a little bit, you know, so I've heard you say on articles or something, there's a bit of a misrepresentation of how he trained. What was his actual philosophy as an athlete that was actually in under him for a while? What was he like, and what sort of training regime did you have, and how did that develop you? Lorraine: Yeah, I think I was really, really fortunate to grow up in New Zealand, and his system was pretty much adopted by the New Zealand running culture, and I think still has—is part of the culture, yeah. It's based on endurance training. So that's the first thing that John Davies did, was give me a training program. He used to write it, handwrite it on a— and send it to me by mail. So I would get a letter with my training program written down. It would be so exciting.  I ran with my dad. So my dad didn't want me going out there by myself, or we ran on the bush a lot. We got lost a lot, but wouldn't have me there by myself. Although I'm sure if I'd navigated, we wouldn't have got lost, but anyway. Yeah, I mean, we just—and we had a great time. It was really fun for me to get to know my dad. I don't think I would have developed that closeness without having that running. It was just fantastic. So we just ended up doing longer and longer runs. It was just building up mileage, just getting some aerobic base, which is really the crux of the Lydiard training, is that you build your aerobic capacity, and that's the main engine. Lisa: Yeah. Because a lot of them, you know, like I had Rod Dixon on last week, on the show. He's also trained under that. Of course, a lot of the great runners that have come out of New Zealand, and there's been many, have trained on that system. Then, you know, was it a real high mileage system? Like, was it—is there anything that you do different now? Because I know, you're still involved with Arthur Lydiard? The groups that you're taking through now, is there any change in the approach that you've had? Because you know, a lot of the listeners out there are runners that are listening to this. So is there anything that you've learned along the way that you do differently now? Lorraine: No, no, the Lydiard system was sound. I mean, the only thing was, as an athlete, I'd come off a season and then I'd go, ‘I'm gonna just train harder than I've ever trained before,' and then I jump in and overdo it and sort of mess it up. That's what we do, we overtrain. So the Lydiard system itself, I think if you just take the way that he put it together, and the, he was the grandfather of periodization, we didn't call it periodization. The exercise physiologist came along a lot later and then just started to put the jargon onto it, and all there is.  Arthur was very practical. So it's just what worked, it was about 60 years in the making. So you will find Lydiard, that he evolved it with just trial and error. Then, as more people started to do research, he started to incorporate other things. But he was really like, just what works, and what he put together worked really well. What I did with the Lydiard system was look at what were the principles, not looking at the hard and fast rules here, because as soon as you start looking at rules, you have limited yourself, and it doesn't work that way. It's an experiment of one, and your journey as an athlete is completely unique. You occupy your own place, and space and time that nobody else can occupy. If you can respect that, and get away from any sort of cookie-cutter staff. Lisa: I love that personalization approach. That's what I'm heavily into now. It's not like we have access to genetic testing and things like that now, where we can actually tailor things to people's genetics even. But back then that wasn't the case. But to make it your own, so here's the framework, and then you make it yours. That fits with you and your style of being, in your style of life, and in everything that fits to you, rather than just forcing yourself into the confines of just, this is black and white. I think that that's pretty insightful, especially back then. Yeah. Lorraine: Yeah. So what I'm teaching now, and I teach courses through the Lydiard Foundation, two coaches, on how to apply the Lydiard training. The big thing, I think, is to look at things and the overall picture because the, you might say the devils in the details, but the details can completely tell, like the devil, the wrong story So it's very easy for people to, and most common, I think, to overshoot the mark. To put in too much. Then if you put in too much energy into the task at hand, you will get the opposite of what you intended.  Lisa: Yeah, overtraining and burnout.  Lorraine: Also we live in this culture where we think more is better. He said also, we pander to outsourcing our information, and so not tapping into this incredible vehicle that we have that can synthesize and put the information together that is specifically tailor-made to you. That is there. It's innate within all of us. We're just not tapping it. I think the journey of the athlete is a wonderful way to get to know yourself and to be able to tap that in the knowledge and to learn.  So the focus, and this happened to me, during my own running, there was, initially you're motivated by the—just winning or getting a faster time and all those kinds of things. Then you think, well, what is it really payback? It's pretty silly, you know, you're all just running around the house and in circles. Somebody goes, ‘Oh, I'm really great, because I finished in front of you.' You get all worked up. Does that really matter, in the big scheme of things?  Well, in certain terms, it doesn't. The exercise is, and I just gave a talk to our advanced classes on the hero's journey. The hero's journey is that the focus is then on the inner journey that's taking place. Yeah, and is a path for us to get to know ourselves. Socrates said, ‘Know thyself.' It's really sound advice, because, I mean, what else are you going to do to see, you know, you go through life, and then suddenly you get to the other end? Lisa: You don't know what the hell it was about. I mean, this is, this is exactly in line with what I like to talk about, which is like, you know, that we, we learn so much when we do these, you know, athletic endeavors, and I don't care whether you're good, or you're really not talented, and you don't have any ability. It's all about yours—your personal journey. That's why any athlete who's just starting out and doing the first kilometer, you know, is on a journey, to get to know their own body, their own mind, what they're capable of, and we find it, you know, and it's, I hate comparing, you know, like, the actual winning of races and stuff is amazing, but how many of us are actually going to have a career like yours, where you're actually at the top of the podium?  For 99% of the people, it's about what they learn along the way, the health benefits that they gather from the training, the strength—mentally. All of these aspects are just even more important, I think, than the, getting the gold medal put around your neck, or the silver or the bronze. It is much more about a personal journey for most people. I mean, you as an elite athlete, at the top of the pyramid, so to speak, did you find that as well? Has it had a bigger implication on your entire life and your life philosophies than just winning? Part of it? Lorraine: Oh, yeah. In the end, though, the inner journey became more important to me than the outer journey. In a way, I think with life, you have your experiences and you're influenced by your parents and your upbringing and your ancestors and all the rest. So we have all these influences that make up who we think we are I think then—and then we go into our older adult life, and we proceed accordingly with this concept of self, which then I think starts to happen. You start to dismantle that concept themselves, and you start gradually stripping it away, so that, hopefully, when you're ready to go out the other end, you have connected with the essence of who you truly are. Not just all these roles and the expectations and put on yourself, you know. Lisa: Was it for you,was there a lot of expectation, you know, like, I had a lot of expectation in my early years from my dad, who I loved dearly, and wanted to impress and wanted to please and so I had a lot of expectation all the way through. So a lot of the things that I did weren't necessarily what I wanted to be doing. They were things that I felt compelled to do, or expected to do. Was that a part of your journey with running? Or was that more, you just had this passion and actual, like Rod just loved running. You know? What was it like for you? Was it a cut and dried thing that this was a passion of yours, or was it more of an expectation that you would—because you were so good?  Lorraine: Yeah. No, it was mine. I mean, it was completely driven by me, instigated and driven by me. My family was really supportive. My dad got on board with it. So my dad got into running because I was a teenager that got into running. He figured he was like the canary in the coal mine. If there was—if I was doing too much or overdoing it, you know, and he did the same as me. Well, then he would clog up before I would. That was very nice of him. He did, you know he actually died while he was out running. That was the way he wanted to exit. So he did. Lisa: Well, yeah, it's never a good thing to go. But if you're going to go, I suppose doing something and being healthy until the last moment is the way that most of us would like to exit this world. Lorraine: My parents were, oh, they were obviously proud. I mean, you get out there, and especially when you're in an Olympics, or Commonwealth Games, or something that's really big for your country, you do feel the expectation of your country and how you do and you know it really matters. It's quite personal. Sometimes when I didn't do that, well, and you get refreshed.  Lisa: That's harsh.  Lorraine: Yeah. Yeah, it is. You just, you know—I don't know, you get over it with pursued— you realize that you have to keep things in perspective. I think one thing I could always come back to and just be in love with the journey of the race and yeah. That it didn't go away.  Lisa: That passion stayed right throughout you. So let's talk now a little bit about the actual—some of the highlights of your career because this is like for most of us, we're never gonna get to do these sorts of things at this level. What was it like to go to the Olympics? What's it like to compete in the first marathons that women were allowed to do in the Olympics? What was that like for you? Lorraine: Well, the first marathons, my foray into marathons was another thing. That was sort of serendipity in a way. It just sort of came to me, and maybe there was a certain, I don't know, maybe openness, the new experience, I think that yeah, that just led me into different sorts of places. But what happened in—when I left school, and I was already a nationally recognized runner as a high school kid, and what to do? I didn't know what to do, so I decided to go to phys ed school because it was the closest thing that I could think of that's for a woman.  Lisa: It is, exactly. That's all we had back then. Lorraine: Yeah, yeah, you just, that's what sporty girls do, become a phys ed teacher. Gary was, my brother, was already at the phys ed school underneath. So it seemed really easy to hit off down to the need. I thought that was really great because it was really a long way from home. Yeah, you know, and I just loved being a student. I just thought that was so fantastic.  So the first day I was there at the phys ed school I got, I was standing on the steps of the phys ed school, and I was sort of looking to my left and looking to my right, and I didn't know where anything was or which way to go for my run. This group of guys came running past. They were a bunch of lunchtime runners, and some of them are very good runners. One of them looked up and saw me standing there in my running shoes and shorts and said, ‘Hey, chick, you gotta come and run with the boys today.'  Okay, there's an invitation I can't refuse. Down the steps, I glommed on to the back of this group, I could barely keep up. But we did this run. The next day, I was there again, and the next day, and so I became the girl that ran with this group of guys.  Lisa: Crazy girl.  Lorraine: Yeah, and they sort of took me under their wing. So I did all the rounds with them. Sunday was like the Needham version of the white tacori run, was the white Eddie's. It's just, just, you run out somewhere over a mountain and down the other side and you've gotten 20 miles, you know. So I started doing those every Sunday with the guys. As a 800-meter runner, you know, I was building this incredible base, and I just got stronger and stronger. Lisa: Did it make you slower doing the long stuff, for the actual short track races? Lorraine: I'm glad you asked. Yeah. No, that's not true, that. Yeah. Endurance running does not make you slow. No, it does not. Though, you do need to do the faster work to bring on your speed. But the endurance will enable you, eventually, to be able to sustain your fastest possible pace. That's the basis of endurance. So nearly all events over two minutes would derive their energy mostly from aerobic means, right? So the greater aerobic capacity you have, the greater capacity you have for any event over two minutes. Lisa: But what about, I've never been fast, that's why we're long. So I don't have a comparison really, of having lost speed because I never had any to begin with. But doing the super long stuff, you know, the ultra marathon distances, I got dreadfully slow when it comes to the shorter distances over time. I always put that down to my muscle, fast twitch fibers mainly tuned into slow twitch fibers.  Now, actually, like, in the last five years, where I stopped doing the ultra marathons, and I've been concentrating more on shorter, sharper, I'm still not fast by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm a heck of a lot faster than I used to be over the short distance. So even in your 50s, you can start to go back the other way. But it's interesting to hear you say that, no, you don't find that. Because that's—yeah, interesting. Lorraine: With some caveats in matters that, if you—your body will respond to what you give it. In terms of training, stimulus response, so what training is, you are giving the body a specific stimulus to get a specific response from the body. It will do that really well. So the thing about the Lydiard pyramid is that you build the endurance, but you don't do that ad infinitum. Right? So then you go on and then you go through the faster phases and you develop the muscles on faster twitch and the different ones, right through to your peak events.  So, we have quite a few ultra runners who come and do our coaching courses. They get in and they get really excited about doing the phases and getting the full development. That's the beauty I think of the Lydiard training, is that it is holistic. It puts all the energy systems and every type of training response in its rightful place, so that you can be at your peak on the day that counts. What I find with a lot of ultra people is that they've just lost their flexibility and range of motion because they haven't practiced it.  Lisa: That's definitely a big part of our training and how we coach—a lot of strength and a lot of mobility, in proprioception, work and coordination and drills and things that traditionally, when I, because when I started back in the dark ages to when we had no idea, and I certainly had no coaching back in the day, I just ran and ran long, because I wasn't very fast, so just run longer than everybody else and I was good at that.  But now I understand and what you know, that whole mobility piece of the puzzle is absolutely crucial, and the drills and the form and the strength training or all the foundational elements, to be able to run the mileage, you know, it's like a pyramid for us, how we how we build it. So yeah, I totally agree, and I think most ultra runners neglect that part. That's where they come unstuck to some degree. You get very slow and stiff. There's reasons for that. But you managed to finish the distance, but the quality sometimes goes down with the length of time you're out there. Lorraine: Also, if you're out there for a heck of a long time, you don't want to spend much time in the air. You don't need a lot of upwards motion, or that long, beautiful stride, et cetera. You develop a bit of a shuffle, it's just being efficient at the distance that you're doing, yes. Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing The Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join the program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on here. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing The Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com.  We have two patron levels to choose from: you can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us. Lisa: Yeah, that's really fascinating. It is like, I did, like I said at the beginning, everything wrong that you could possibly do wrong, I think in my early career. It was just like, go long, go hard, though, you know, but no strikes, no mobility, no drills. I didn't know what running form was. I just ran. Incredible that you can still achieve great distances and that way, but it's certainly not healthy. It was very high mileage in those early days, and that has its own toll.  Now we try to train people efficiently because most of the people that we training are also, you know, got careers and kids and jobs and stressors. So we find that you can't train them like you would a 20-year-old professional athlete when they're a 45-year-old mum with three children and a full-on career. Then you're going to break them if you have that high mileage model. So it's much more about time efficiency and getting the best results that they can get with the level of stress that they're already under.  So yes, it's just really interesting to compare notes on all this, especially as you've come from the elite level, in a lot of the things that I find with people who are not in that elite group, don't respond the same way that elite runners would, like when you were doing your top level stuff, the amount of mileage and manner of training that you would have been able to cope with is not what your average person can cope with, because you would have been focused on that solely. Lorraine: I think if you look historically at Lydiard training, he started coaching the first joggers group in the early 60s. So the story is that he was invited, after his Olympic successes, to the Tamaki Yacht Club to talk to the businessman there about training, etc. He was asking them about their own levels of fitness. A whole bunch of them said, ‘Well, we can't do any, our doctors told us to take it easy, because we've had cardiac arrest'. And Arthur's like, you know typical, Arthur, you know, ‘That's absolute rubbish. If you guys want to start jogging with me, I will teach you how to run a marathon.'  He had quite a group, of which quite a few of them were cardiac patients, and had this running group. He got them to run a marathon in about nine months. You're talking more than a couch potato? Yeah.  Lisa: Exactly. He approached that differently than he would with his elite athlete, obviously?  Lorraine: He had to, because if they couldn't start out on 100 miles a week and he realized that you can't expect middle-aged men getting run out to do that kind of mileage because they spend so much more time on their feet, that they're actually doing a lot more work than an elite runner, yeah. So then he changed the distance to duration.  Lisa: Yes, that's what we do too mostly, duration, because then that's more of it. Because otherwise if you run your good marathons at incredibly fast times, but the person who is at the other end of the marathon is taking six hours, they're going to be athletes for twice as long or longer. That doesn't equate from an equivalent point of view. That's—yeah, so that's exactly what we do. Yeah. Lorraine: Physiologically, it's about the same based on duration. Not based on distance. If you spend two hours out there, and you're just jogging along, and that's as fast as you can go, you will have about the same effect as somebody who runs at the same effort but is heck of a lot faster. The system is adaptable to all levels of runner. That's why you go on principles. You look at what you're trying to achieve, and then how best to achieve it based on the level of their person, but, you know, the—we're all, physiologically, we all basically work the same.  We all have—we metabolize fats and glycogen and have the same energy systems and they are invoked at the same perceived effort or level of effort and can be developed. We all have this system of adaptation. We all are losing cells and regenerating them all the time. That is basically so, if you're becoming a new person, like they say, maybe 95% of our bodies are replaced every year, just cells dying and new ones coming on. Or in seven years you get a completely new you. So it doesn't really matter, the point is that, can you direct who you are going to be in the view. Yeah, you can. Athletes know that. Lisa: Yeah. That's what our reputation is all about and why we do it, that's why we train so that we get that reputation. In heavier like—what do you do with people, because we get a lot of athletes who are just head through the wall, type A personalities who want to go harder than what their bodies, and I'm putting myself in this category, to harder than what their bodies can actually cope with, they're burning themselves out, breaking themselves and not actually reaping the reward that they should be for the amount of effort that's going in to their training. How do you try to get them to back off a bit? Lorraine: Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the key things that I teach is that we start right from the beginning, learning to pay attention to our bodies, and getting this rapport with ourselves and learning that you want to a cooperative relationship with your own body and it will give you the information that that it has, and which is better than if you're trying to perform to these external measures, which, there's so many of them because we can measure every frickin' thing that we do, and post it some way of where other people can look at, and they couldn't care less, because they're too busy putting their's up and wanting other people to pay attention to it.  So this constant pandering to make ourselves into somebody that we think that's something on the outside that's going to approve of us. So people who overdo it have a lack of confidence, and a lack of trust in their own body and their own physiology. Because my goodness, your body does an incredible job to keep us alive, and to keep us going and to perform the tasks that we give to it so we can achieve the dreams that we have. Then that will bust itself, for you.  But we do have sort of certain sort of measures, then that will also put into place when you're going to to kill yourself. But those that are well, I'm not doing this because yeah, our minds are incredible also. But most of them use our minds like a slave driver.  Lisa: Yes. I certainly did.  Lorraine: Yeah. You have to learn the hard way sometimes. But we have, being able to recognize, and to know where those danger signals are, and to be able to catch them and back off. Those, I started out my courses, were talking about the fallacy of hard work. Hard work is not where it said, everybody thinks, ‘Oh, God, you must be a really hard worker.' Well, you know, I can knock a knuckle down, but you know, why put in more energy than the task requires? So hard is redundant. Just do the work. Don't make it hard. Because then now, as soon as you say hard, people start to stress, they tense up, you know, okay, Lisa: It plops your brain and it becomes a negative, that you associate with, pain with your exercise and things and that it creates a negative loop. Lorraine: It's horrible. When I won big races, it was actually you get in the state of flow, and it feels wonderful. Lisa: Wow. So when you're actually at the top of your game, and winning these international events and things, you felt like—so it didn't feel as if you were killing yourself to get across the line on those days.  Lorraine: I always get pretty tired of the marathon.  Lisa: Yeah the in and out it. But you felt like you're prepared for this, but not overprepared for this, not burnt out and sorry about it. You actually enjoyed that, you enjoyed those top races that you really did well in? Did that feel like a flow state? Lorraine: The system that I teach, it's a performance system, right? It's good, so that you get the best you possibly can on the day that counts. So that's getting yourself into a peak performance state from wherever you're at. Right? Everybody can do that. That feels amazing. I'm sure you felt it, that you just get there and everything's clicking right. You've got it.  So it is a coordination of body, heart, mind and spirit. It's just, they all come together and you reach that state of flow. Actually, for most of us, we don't get there because we are working too hard. We have too much tension. That getting into a peak state is actually an act of surrender. Yeah. So, when you hit it a few times, you go, ‘Man, this feels so good. I'm gonna try and figure out how I got there again'. As I said, when I was young, I'd just go on the on the train harder than ever before, and you know, and then it seems to sort of go away from you and then you get injured or something or you don't perform as well, because you're in the syndrome of hard work, you're overcooking it, you've got excess energy. That energy has to go somewhere, and all it does is that just messes things up. So that precision of giving the stimulus that is needed for the effect. The thing is that the effect of it takes place during the recovery period, not when you're actually doing the task. So, you know— Lisa: That's an important point. If you had a bad night's sleep, you're being under the pump all week with work, you've got kids who have slept in, everything's going to cast it, and then you go and smash yourself, because it's on your list today to do a really long, hard run. You're not going to get the adaptation, you'd have been better to go hang on, well, ‘Life, come at me this week, I'm gonna actually take it a little bit easier.' Having that confidence to do that, and back off, because I think a lot of people are like, ‘Yeah, but I have to go harder'. They congratulate themselves when they slave drive themselves, and they push them through the bad event.  While that might make you mentally tougher, and there's some advantages of that approach for a while, it isn't going to get the adaptation that you're going to want, because actually, it's in the recovery, it's in the sleep, it's in the downtime that you're actually going to get that benefit. If you're not able to adapt, and then all that training was for nothing, or worse, it can be even detrimental to your immune system and to your health, your mental health. That's a hard sell, tough-minded athletes who think that they have to enter. I certainly struggled with us, and still do so on occasion, we, but I have to go harder, and I'm not, you know, doing enough, because I'm not getting the results, therefore, you know, a little is good, more must be better. That approach doesn't work. Lorraine: Yeah, look, it's a lack of trust. I think a lot of us are brought up to sort of think in the negative all the time, and to talk about what we don't want to have happen. We approach a lot of the things that we wish to do, or the things we wish to create in our lives from a state of fear. That's a real shame, because that immediately puts us on the backfoot. Then we can't get into this natural flow. Look, the world has set up for us to be creative beings, and for us to have, be able to manifest our dreams and make works that are worthwhile and contribute it, so when we leave this life, we have lived something better, we have used our own talents and things are more enhanced, because of our being here.  I think most people have a very huge drive, I think all human beings do, to be of value in this life in some way. I think, you know, we started out talking about this, that we have these systems in our systems, they're not human, you know, they're just systems that are put in place that eventually become self-serving, and they don't serve us.  So they will perpetuate fear, etc., because it just gets us putting our energy into the system, rather than putting it into ourselves and our own dreams. I think that what we need to realize is that it is set up in our favor. I'll give you just one really good example of that. When we train, and we give the body a training stimulus, so to meet that training task, that run or whatever we do, that workout, you have used this fuels in your body and you've broken apart all these bonds to provide energy to enable you to do the task, and then you stop doing it.  As soon as you stop doing it, the body gets busy. It starts to reconstitute those energy bonds and etc. So all these adaptations are taking place. That brings us back to normal again. But it doesn't just bring us back to normal. It gives us more, it makes us stronger, more storage space, you know, stronger muscle fibers, better oxygenation. It actually adapts itself to better accommodate what we're asking it to do. Yeah. So nature has given you a bonus. I mean, if you can't see that everything is set up in your favor just by that little thing alone, it's like, ‘Wow.' Lisa: Yeah, biology is just incredible. These are hormetic stressors. So when we put our body under strain, we come back stronger. When we put ourselves under too much strain, we actually break it down. So that's the fine line that we have to, for us, for each of us individually, find where those points are. That will shift as we get stronger, and you'll be able to take on more training.  But we have to honor the process, that honor the the hormetic stress, recovery, stress recovery, and then build on that so that we can then, you know, eventually you can be running at the best, if it's a training thing, but this is in every area of life, that we're more stressed, we're more resilient. Resilience, the word. We're more able to take on a load, this is just the beautiful thing of all these hormetic stressors and if we don't push ourselves at all, well then, we're going to definitely, the body is going to go well, this is a piece of cake, I can just keep being where I'm at, and then actually start to decline.  What I'd be really interested in your take with older people. One of my passions in life is to empower older people to not give up on on their lives because society sees your past that, and that you've got a use-by date,  you've passed, you know, all of these sorts of attitudes that are just insidious in our culture that, in the Maori culture, it's a little bit better, where we actually respect their elders, and we value their wisdom, but in general culture, it's pretty bad.  We also have this thing—when I retire, then I'll recover and I'll relax. For me, that's the beginning of a downward spiral. So in the rehabilitation journey that I've been on with my mum for the last five years, you know, I set her tasks every day that she has to achieve. She has goals that we're aiming for. Of course, we have phases of recovery, and so on. But she's always on a mission of some sort or another, and she's 79 years old, and we're going forward. I will treat her like that until there is no hope, you know, to the end of her days, because I believe that humans need challenge.  They don't need comfort. They don't need to be, you know, mollycoddled and stuck on the couch to watch telly all day, because you're older now. No. I'd like to see people having their challenge, whatever their challenge is, and it could be like, mum has offered art classes now and just loving the creative. She's got time to do something different and that's a goal that is helping her brain stay on point. What's your take on the way society sees people when they get older? How do you approach that from your personal standpoint? Lorraine: Well, from my own personal standpoint, they're getting older. Yeah, I'm with you 100%, Lisa. I think we need to continually be adding new stimuli, and you know, they can be stress, you know, stimuli stress, it's all just, you're asking the body to do new things. So then you're just inviting new experience into your life. I think that as we get older, our world should be getting bigger, not smaller. I do think that a lot of what we attribute to old age, it's just bad habit.  Lisa: It's accumulating it for many years and makes it the typical aging things. I mean, we are all going to die at some point, but my goal is to live an extremely long life that is healthy until the end, that's my goal. None of us know what's going to come at us from left field. I've experienced an awful lot, I know that some things can still, but that's the goal. That's the approach that I take. So I'm doing everything in my life and in my family's life, to make that as best as possible.  To have constant challenge and have constant goals that you're aiming for and new things that you're learning. It keeps you in this growth mindset for starters, and it keeps your body not knowing what's coming, so it's still having to adapt and go forward, rather than going backwards. As we get older, we get wiser, well, hopefully we do, most of us do, we've got more experience, we're more able to cope with, you know, all the, the emotional things that we probably weren't able to cope with when we were 20, we've got all these experiences.  It's just fantastic if we can look to our older generations as the one who provide wisdom for the ones that are coming behind, and they're seen as a valuable resource in our society, because and not as being your past that because you're over 50, or you're over 60, or you're over 70, or whatever, you know, this demarcation line is that people have and they put on themselves, you know, partly because society does this. Lorraine: Yeah and it's a horrible thing for you to be made redundant and society in terms of your value to it. That is largely, I think, exacerbated by what runs the show is generally money. So people are not seeing older people as being contributing into. Yet we need to start valuing other things besides that. I think we are at the moment, just with the times and what it's for, the time of shifting, and there's an invitation here to make sure that we reconnect with our humanness, and start to prioritise what things we value as human beings, because we're in danger of losing a lot of them. We look at our older people, and we also look at our children. Now children have a life expectancy less than that of their parents. Lisa: Yes, horrific. Lorraine: It's the wrong direction, and you can't cut off your old people and your young people are not benefiting from the wisdom that is available, and that wisdom is something that you can't put a price on. We need to get back to, away from this sort of outside focus and measuring everything in those sorts of terms, and start to value our human relationships and our depth of experience and our connection to the divine spark which we all have within us. To value that journey and support each other on that journey. We're all in it alone, and we're all in it together. Lisa: That's beautifully put. I think we are in an age of change, and I hope things will gather some more momentum. We've got lots of problems in the world but we've also got lots of opportunities now to change things. In the areas that I'm working in, I'm seeing huge changes taking place within just the last few years and that's encouraging. Then there is lots of negativity, but I like to focus on the positivity.  But I think, yeah, let's start valuing our elder, older population, and they have a lot to bring to the party. What we want to do is help people stay healthier, longer. That requires a bit of a mindset shift. When I take my mom to the gym, she's training her butt off there at 79 years old, and people know where she's come from, like being in a wheelchair for a few years, and not being able to do anything. Now she's doing all this, you know, crazy stuff, well, you know, compared to where she was there. That's a role model. She's a role model for so many older people who now have actually joined the gym, and, you know, we're doing stuff because they go, ‘Well, if Isabel can do it, I can do it.' That's, to me, the greatest, beautiful thing that's come out of that tragic journey that we've been on. It's empowering now, other people to not give up just because they're older. To have that attitude of, ‘I'm going to fight my way back.' Then it's a team event. I'm mum's coach, mentor and driver. She's the one who's willing to put in the hard yards and to do whatever I asked her to do to the best of her ability, and that's a winning combination. I'd like to see more people have that, if they've been on rehabilitation journeys. Even for younger people, that they've got someone in the corner that's willing to help them fight because when you're in a big health battle, you need people fighting with you and alongside you. Lorraine: Yeah. When you're down and you don't have the energy, that's what families are for. That's what families are for. To help you when you need to help and how you can all be putting in and bringing it together. I just think this divorcing ourselves from old people and just giving them a bunch of pills, then putting them in front of the telly, what a waste, what an incredible waste of resources.  Lisa: Yep, and loneliness and despair, and all of those things, and the value of that person's life history is just disappearing, when it could be being impassioned, if they, if we can keep their minds active, and their bodies as strong as possible for as long as possible, they have a great value. It's not like, from a societal standpoint, it's often thought, well, once you retire, you're no longer adding value to society, it's measured in monetary value, and you're costing more in the health systems. Hopefully, you don't live too long. That's just an approach to me that is just horrific. The way that society treats its young, and it's old and it's vulnerable, as is the mark of a civilization, I think that is, you know, is that is what we should be measured by, not how strong— Lorraine: Yeah, and I think the example of your mum, is that, all we have to do is take care of what's in front of us and do the best that we can. That is being an example to other people, it just starts to, so she's going to the gym and other people see her and they go out, and they have a whole different mindset about the possibilities and what happens and, and that's all it takes. Lisa: You like the work that you're doing, that's imparting your knowledge. You could be sitting back on a beach somewhere and just enjoying life. Instead, you're still teaching, you're sharing, you're imparting that valuable knowledge that you have to other people, and that is gold. It's so important. Gary, your lovely brother, who I absolutely adore and admire, thinks he's crazy and awesome at the same time. Still world-leading mountain biker at his age, and he certainly helped me on my journey when I was broken and burnt out and came to him, a few years ago going, ‘But Gary, I'm broken, can you help me?' He put pieces of the puzzle back together again, and helped, gave me actually a role model, because he'd done the same thi

Imagine yourself standing smack in the middle of a busy city. You'd get dizzy just by looking at how fast people go about their daily lives. Everyone is so hyperactive and absorbed in getting things done. Amid all the chaos, we forget to take a pause, be still and breathe.  Remember, we can only evolve into our best selves if we take a moment and be present. And no one knows this more than the ultimate warrior, Mark Divine. He joins us in this episode to share his experiences in the military and how meditation helped him develop inner strength. Mark also teaches us how to use positive internal dialogue in visualising and attracting victory.  If you want to know more about the benefits of meditation through the experience of an ultimate warrior, then this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:  Find out Mark's experience with meditation and how this made him into an ultimate warrior. Discover how a positive internal dialogue can train your brain to be focused. Know about recapitulation and how it can help in dealing with traumas.   Episode Highlights [05:34] Mark's Background Mark's experiences with his father forged his mental toughness and resilience. This laid the foundation for him to be an ultimate warrior. He grew up boating, hiking, and running trails through the mountains. Athletics was his escape, but he wasn't able to think about his future.  When Mark left college, he was fortunate enough to get a job in a big accounting firm; this allowed him to go to a top business school.  Despite school and work, Mark was determined to continue his athletic career. He then became interested in Seido karate. Meditation made him realise that he wasn't following his true path.  [15:13] Becoming an Ultimate Warrior Mark came across a Navy recruitment centre, saw their poster, and applied to be a SEAL. Mark graduated with his entire boat crew. He was number 1 in his class.   Mark credits this achievement to meditation training and the team building activities that compelled you to tame your ego. [19:59] The Importance of Meditation and Yoga Mark meditated and trained in yoga every day in the war zone. He felt stronger and more confident.  Yoga is the oldest science of mental and personal development.  Mark learned that training one's physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual aspects mean you can access more of yourself and your potential. Yoga, in a sense, is integration; it is coming back to who we are and being whole.  Listen to the full episode to learn how Mark got into yoga and how this contributed to him becoming an ultimate warrior. [26:33] The Importance of Emotional Strength In SEAL training, most of those who quit were physically strong but lacked the emotional strength to handle extreme moments of crisis and doubt. The person subconsciously created the injury to quit.  Mark tried to be flexible and didn't let anything bother him during SEAL training.  Mark trains SEALs by teaching the Big Four: box breathing, positive internal dialogue, visualisation, and micro-goals.  [35:19] Examining Your Internal Dialogue Meditation is a critical part of examining one's internal dialogue.  How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and motivation.  The term 'feeding the fear wolf' means to allow negative dialogue, imagery, and emotions to control and weaken you.  Positive thoughts, or ‘feeding the courage wolf', creates a higher vibration, bringing in more energy and access to creativity.  Controlling your breathing and adding a positive mantra can be very transformative; it helps you develop concentration and increase productivity.  [41:33] Imagining Victory Our belief systems are made out of statements that may or may not be true.  Pay attention to your thoughts and make them positive. Know that you are competent.  Although you may not feel it yet, continue meditating to get rid of that negative side.   When you understand your capabilities, you can project them into the future and have an image of your success.  When positive thoughts overcome negative ones, you can see your true self more clearly, and powerful thoughts start to spread.  [46:10] The Zen Process Meditation is challenging, especially for active people. We have to disconnect from various distractions and be still.  You can't evolve if you are constantly active; the only way to go inward is to slow down and be quiet.  The first step in meditation practice is box breathing. It releases stress and brings brain-body balance.  In the second step, the box pattern turns into concentration practice. The mantra is also added to train concentration and attention.  The third step allows you to put less energy into concentration and observe yourself from a witness perspective.  [53:00] The Importance of Doing Emotional Work Doing emotional work is the foundation of meditation.  Without this, you don't get the full benefits of meditation. Meditation requires patience.  The process is different for everyone.  [55:44] Going into the Witness Perspective In this part of the process, you empty your mind and allow any thought streams to come in. You experience a metacognitive split here.  You see the thoughts that come up from a perspective that's separate from them.  Through this, you realise you're not your thoughts and emotions. And so, you have the power to change your story. When you visualise from the witness perspective, you see what your spirit wants you to see. You realise your true purpose.  If you do this every day, you attract the future that's right for you, and you feel connected to the world. Through this, you eventually gain enlightenment. [01:02:43] How Meditation Can Help Athletes Meditation supports total health. Through it, you'll become more healthy, strong, and motivated. Awakened athletes and warriors who serve the world can change it. Athletes can do so because they are emotionally balanced. [01:05:25] What Is Recapitulation? Recapitulation is where we use imagery to go back into our past, relive traumatic events, recontextualise them, and forgive.  It is to see yourself forgiving your younger self and changing the image and energy associated with your traumas.  Awareness and identification of traumatic events is the first step to the recapitulation.  Recapitulation can be used to go back and overcome big traumas and to make sure you are not dragging past regrets.  Recapitulation then becomes a daily practice of letting go of regrets and resentments. Listen to the full episode and hear some examples of this!  [01:18:28] How to Be a Good Leader Show up as the best version of yourself. Be humble, authentic, trustworthy, courageous, and respectful.  It takes time to develop those qualities and work on them with your team.  Listen to the full episode to know how Mark does leadership training in his programs!   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #199: Episode with Dr Don Wood Connect with Mark: Website | Instagram  The Unbeatable Mind Podcast with Mark Divine Bedros Keulian on Learning How to “Man Up” How to Deal with Trauma with Dr Don Wood Check out these books by Mark Divine!  Staring Down the Wolf  Unbeatable Mind  8 Weeks to SEALFIT The Way of the SEAL  KOKORO Yoga Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda 2021 Unbeatable Challenge   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘It was about physical, it was about mental, it was about emotional, it was about intuitional and spiritual aspects of our being. In that, I learned that if you train those together, then you will integrate, you'll become whole again.' ‘Human beings have not learned to be whole, and they don't recognise that we're all interconnected. And every one of our thoughts, every one of our emotions, every one of our actions has an implication or impact on the whole.' ‘How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and your motivation. Literally, we use the terminology “feeding the courage wolf” versus “feeding the fear wolf.' ‘Understanding your capability as a human being, the potential that you have, the power that we have, you can then project that into the future and say, “What does victory look like for me?”' ‘I think that there's two reasons we're on this planet. One is to evolve to become the best version, highest and best version of yourself in this lifetime. The second is to align with our calling or our purpose.' ‘Ultimately, we create our own reality. It's all basically, it's all experienced with [the] mind. So that's powerful.' ‘You can do anything, one at a time.'   About Mark Mark Divine grew up in Upstate New York. He has a degree in economics from Colgate University and an MBA from NYU. He is a New York Times best-selling author, leadership expert, entrepreneur, motivational speaker.  Mark is also a retired U.S. Navy SEAL Commander. He spent nine years on active duty and 11 as a Reserve. With 20 years in service, he served in over 45 countries. During his time in the military, Mark created a nationwide mentoring program for SEAL trainees. Because of his success, he decided to start SEALFIT. This fitness company aims to prepare civilians for the physical and emotional demands of a SEAL-like lifestyle.  Mark knows the value of emotional strength in transforming lives. With this in mind, he published Unbeatable Mind in 2011, which includes an at-home study program. Mark also has several other entrepreneurial endeavours and books in his name. He's also the host of the Unbeatable Mind podcast. With all these ventures, Mark's ultimate aim is to create more resources to improve the lives of everyone he meets.  If you want to know more about Mark and his work, check out his website and Instagram.     Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can be motivated to be their real selves through meditation. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential. With your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hey everyone, Lisa Tamati here. Fantastic to have you back at Pushing the Limits this week. Now I have a wonderful man who I've followed for a number of years. He's one of my heroes, I was a little bit of a fangirl in this interview I have to admit. But it was pretty crazy. I have Commander Mark Divine on the show. Mark is an ex-Navy SEAL. He was a Commander in the Navy Seal. He was there for 20 years, and he was a fantastic leader. He was deployed in over 45 countries around the world. He also trains, trains a lot of the SEALs who are going into BUD/S training. He was number one on his course when he went through BUD/S, and that's saying something. That's nine months of hell on earth, so if you get through that, you've got to be pretty cool, and to be number one in the end of the whole 190 that went on, that's pretty amazing.  He's the author of a number of books: Staring Down the Wolf, Unbeatable Mind, and SEALFIT, and runs a number of multi-million dollar companies. As a leadership consultant, he trains, not only does he train the military, he helps people prepare for SEAL training. He also now runs through his innovative SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind training systems. Kokoro crucible is one of his programs. He shares the same secrets with entrepreneurs, executives, and teams through his book and through his book, and through his speaking, and through his award-winning podcast. He has his own, and I have the privilege of being on that one shortly. He runs world-renowned leadership and team events. Wonderful man to talk to, someone that I really, really look up to and respect. His discipline that he brings to everything that he does is quite amazing. So I hope you enjoy the show. Before we go, I just want to remind you to check out our epigenetics program, if you haven't already. Head over to lisatamati.com and hit the work with us button, and find out about our Peak Epigenetics program. This is all about understanding your genetics, and how to optimise them for your best performance. So everything from food, to exercise, what types of exercise to do, what times of the day you should be training, what times of the day you should be eating, and how often. What type of diet is right for you, right down to the nitty gritty. You know, eat almonds, don't eat cashew nuts, right specific to your genetics, so to speak. It also looks at your whole mood and behavior, what makes you tick, why do you think the way you do, what areas you may have problems with, your predispositions.  That's not to be all deterministic, and negative, that's all to be like this is what you're dealing with, and this is how we can hit things off at the pass. This is a really life-changing program, and we're really proud to bring it to you. We've been doing it for a number of years now. We've taken hundreds of people through this program, and we work with corporate teams. So if you're out there and you have a corporate team that might be interested in doing either this or our boost camp program, which is all about upgrading and learning all about how to manage stress, how to reduce the effects of stress, and be more resilient and bring a higher performance to your game, then please reach out to us. Go over to lisatamati.com. and check out all the programs that we have here.  Just a reminder too, I have a new book out called Relentless: How a Mother and Daughter Defied the Odds. If you've listened to this podcast for a while, you would hear me harp on about my amazing mum and the journey that we've been on back from a massive aneurysm that left her at the age of 74 with hardly any higher function, and a prognosis that said she would never ever do anything again. And they were very, very wrong. So I want to share this book, I want to share the story, because it's a very empowering story. So if you haven't read the book Relentless, I really encourage you to go and do that. I'm really keen to get this out there because this will empower and change lives, and already has, so make sure you read Relentless. Right, over to the show with Commander Mark Divine. Hi everyone, Lisa Tamati here. I'm super, super excited. I'm jumping out of my skin, I can't sit still. I have one of my great heroes that I've followed for such a long time, so I'm a little bit, being a bit of a fangirl right now. But I'm sure I'll calm down in a minute or two. Commander Mark Divine is with us. He has such a huge history. You are known, really, as the warrior man, Unbeatable Mind, SEALFIT. You've done a heck of a lot in your life. Mark, it's just, I can't wait to share some of your insights, because what you do and what you've done is just absolutely amazing. So, welcome to Pushing the Limits. Can you give us a little bit of background, Mark, on where you come from and what you've done and how you've, just to give us a little bit of, because you, obviously you've been in the SEALs, you're a commander in the SEALs, you're a trained SEAL. So let's start there. Let you come to it. Mark Divine: Oh, my God, where to start? Lisa: Maybe childhood. Mark: I was born at a very young age in a very small town in upstate New York, a province of the United States. I'll try to keep this short because sometimes I have a few run-on sentences. Go like 40 minutes, right? We don't want that to happen. That's when we have a good time. So yeah, I was a pretty normal kid growing up, running around the woods of upstate New York, crazy family, lots of alcohol and anger. The belt would come out pretty much every other night. My brother and I would literally just provoke my father just to do it, because we stopped taking him seriously after a while. In that regard, I feel pretty fortunate that my young spirit was like, ‘You can't break me'. I realise now that we all choose our parents, let's just say, from a spiritual perspective, I certainly believe that. For certain experiences, and for a while I played the victim, woe is me.  But now I look back and thank God, that really forged my mental toughness and resiliency. I had to unpack some crap from that, obviously, but it made me a Navy SEAL warrior, right? When I went through Navy SEAL training, you could not hurt me, because nothing was compared to my dad. Anyway, so that's a little aside. Upstate New York had a really— it's beautiful. I've been to your country in New Zealand. It's just absolutely gorgeous. I feel the same way about America in certain places, the much bigger. New York is one of those areas that, 6 million acres of unfettered, protected land in northern New York called the Adirondack Mountains, and that was my playground. And our summer home was on the west shore of a lake called Lake Placid where the Olympics were, you're probably familiar with that.  Lisa: Yeah.  Mark: There was no road access to my house. There was no TV, no internet. Still, there's finally internet after but no TV, and we would have to take a boat to get there. And so I grew up with boats and I grew up hiking in the Adirondacks and a lot of time alone in the wilderness, which is one of the reasons I became kind of an endurance athlete. I know you're an endurance lady. Because I was comfortable, being alone. I was comfortable running the trails in the mountains, and I used to have a friend, we would run up Whiteface Mountain, which is at the base or the foot of Lake Placid. Not a huge mountain, it's 4,000 feet, but you know it took a couple hours. If you're going to hike up there it takes a few hours. For us to run up there, took us 45 minutes. People used to think we were crazy. When we got to the top we would wrap our ankles and our knees and we would play tag on the way down. The trails are steep and just rocks and ruts and roots. It's amazing we didn't kill ourselves.  So that was my like early childhood upbringing, nature being in the woods and in the water were my solace away from the family dynamics. That led me to be a competitive athlete in high school, 12 varsity letters and then into college, I was recruited for swimming and I became a competitive rower. And then I started triathlon. So, I was an athlete, but the athletics really was my escape and kind of my grounding rod, like it is for so many athletes, right? When I— then I wasn't sure what was going to happen. I didn't really spend a lot of time in my youth thinking about my future, I kind of accepted a lot of the stories for my family that I was going to go back and be part of the family business. That business was really the place that Divines go, you know, we don't go into the military, we don't go into academia, we don't do those things. So anyways, it's as your listeners are hearing this, they're probably like, ‘Yep, check.' Lisa: They may have done that. Mark: That's the norm, right? That's not, I wasn't off, but it's certainly not what I teach today, right? Because, right, I think if we're— if we don't follow our passion and find our calling in life, then we're going to have discomfort later on, and discomfort is going to lead to existential crisis. So I was very fortunate, incredibly fortunate that when I left college, I got a job with a big accounting firm, consulting accounting firm called Coopers and Lybrand, which became accountant, became— Lisa: You were an accountant. I mean, that makes me laugh, really. Mark: I was an accountant. Lisa: I was on the way to being an accountant too. So because of what my dad wanted, and I'm about as far from an accountant, as you can get, you know.  Mark: I was too. Lisa: That's a good story. Mark: But I stuck with it long enough to become a certified public accountant, I had to pass the exam.  Lisa: I didn't. Mark: I got my— I tell you what, I would rather go back to BUD/S Navy SEAL training than try that darn exam again. That told me something right there. But you know, it is a great opportunity. Because here I am, you know, I got a degree from a pretty good university called Colgate. But I didn't really have any skills. And so this job opportunity gave me and sent me to a top business school in the United States called NYU, New York University. So I got my MBA in finance, and I became a certified public accountant for four years. I got to work on a lot of different companies as a consultant and auditor. So I saw a lot. But, so that was kind of formative, in a sense, like, I learned a lot. What was probably more formative, or more substantial for me was, once I got into that suit and tie, and I was working eight hours a day, mind you, they allowed me to work only 8 or 10 hours a day. Most people in those scenarios work 15 to 20. But because they were sponsoring this small group of us to go to business school at night, they had to let us off, and then we would go to school full-time during the summer, and just come in on Fridays. It was a really cool program. So I was working 8 to 10 hours a day, going to school at night. And it's— I was an athlete, right? And I was like, ‘How am I going to, how am I going to stay as an athlete?' Right? Most people don't. Because you know, in the corporate world, and I was like, ‘I've got to, I've got to continue my athletic career.' And so I would get up really early in the morning and go for a six mile run. And then at lunchtime when all my peers would go have a beer or martini and lunch, I would go to the gym and do like this, what I now know is a high intensity functional workout, which back then nobody talked about. Because I had to go fast, and I was wanting to do a lot of different variety, and I had to be in and out of there in 45 minutes. And then after, they let me go at five o'clock in the afternoon, and my first class wasn't till 7:30. So I'm looking at that saying, ‘Look, I got two and a half hours. I could do some training here.' So one night, I wasn't sure what I was going to do. But one night, I was walking down 23rd Street, I was living on 22nd in Manhattan, and I heard these screams coming out of this building. And I stopped and I looked up and I was standing under the flag of the World Seido Karate Headquarters.  ‘Oh, interesting. Maybe it's a martial art.' And I had been intrigued with the martial arts. But in Upstate New York, that just wasn't much. There's nothing as a matter of fact, in my time, and so I didn't really get a chance to study anything. So I went in there and I was floored. I was stunned by what I saw. It was an incredible art. This was the headquarters of a worldwide art called seido, they had three or 400,000 students. And the Grand Master, the founder was on the center of the floor, this Japanese man, 10th degree black belt, looked like a frickin' tank. And he was, his name was Nakamura, and he became my mentor, my first real mentor. Yeah. Now what's interesting, he says it wasn't really the karate that changed me. It was the zen training. And he is one of the few masters who kept the old ways of training the mind and the body and the spirit, and understood that they all had to be in balance, and they all were part of the package of developing these corrupted, these trainees.  I loved the zen part, and there was a zen class we had every Thursday night for an hour, we would sit on that little wooden zazen bench. And honestly, this studio is the headquarter, had well over a thousand students. There were ten of us in this class, most of them black belts, and I was a white belt, and I was like, ‘Where is everyone else?' I didn't get it. And then there wasn't a lot of understanding or talk about meditation back then. But boy, I did this thing to do meditation. I had all the usual kind of resistance to it, and my monkey mind going all over the place and wondering if it really worked. I trusted Nakamura and the way he acted and presented himself as a character, just who he was, was so different than any other human I've ever seen or experienced. And I was like, ‘There's got to be something to this, right?' So I stuck with it. And it literally changed almost every aspect of who I was and how I saw the world and what I perceived to be my calling and my purpose in life. And it was sitting on that bench that I realised that I was going down the wrong path with this MBA, CPA, working in the corporate world. Even if I went back to the family business, it just wasn't what I was meant to do. That was the first time in my life that I allowed myself to examine my core story that said, this is who I am, and to recognise it was built on a lie. Lisa: Yeah. And you weren't following your true path. Mark: I wasn't following my true path. But my true path wasn't exactly laid out for me, in those meditation sessions. It was more like the archetypal energy in the arc of my life was shown to me and that that art was to be a warrior, and then it would lead somewhere else that wasn't quite clear to me, but the warrior part was very strong. And it didn't— I didn't get messages while I was meditating, saying, ‘You're going to be a Navy SEAL.' What I got was ‘warrior' and, ‘You're going down the wrong path with this business stuff.' It was when I finally started to accept that, that I learned about the Navy SEALs, right. Remember, this is 1987, 88, there was no TV shows and movies, no famous names.  Lisa: They weren't famous back then.  Mark: Nobody knew them. In fact, the few people that did know them were like, crazy guys. So I— one day, I was walking home from work, and I came across a Navy recruiting station. I didn't even know it was that but I saw a poster in the window. I took a double take of this poster. I was like, well, the title of that poster was, ‘Be Someone Special'. And it had Navy SEALs doing really cool shit. Jumping out of airplanes, yeah, blocking out little mini submarines, sneaking through the water. It's just so cool for me. I just sat there kind of transfixed, looking at that, and I didn't say anything about the SEALs. They said, US Navy, and I was, ‘Huh, interesting.' So I went back and I talked to the recruiters so what, ‘Who are those people in that poster?' They said, ‘Oh, they're crazy Navy SEALs. You don't want to do that.' I said, ‘Yeah, I do. Tell me more.' So long story short. I started that whole CPA, MBA bullshit, 1985. In November of 1989, I got my black belt, I got my MBA, I got my CPA and I was on a bus. I was on a bus to Officer Candidate School. Lisa: That was the next mission. Mark: On to the next mission. I wandered away from, I walked away from probably what would today's dollars be $200,000 salary to get paid $500 a month?  Lisa: Wow. That takes— Mark: For heading off as a candidate. Lisa: That takes courage. That alone takes courage. Mark: But I didn't question that. You know, I knew it. I knew this is the right path. And when I got to SEAL training, what we called BUD/S, basic underwater demolition SEAL training. Man, I felt like I was home, and there was no way that they were going to get me to quit. I mean, other people said this, but I said this very clearly: ‘You have to kill me to get me out of here.' And I don't think they can legally do that. Although they sure do try. Lisa: It can get pretty close. Mark: It can get pretty close, yeah. I sailed through SEAL training. We had 185 in my class, hardcore, awesome guys. And 19 of us graduated. I graduated number one in my class and my entire team, my boat crew that we trained together from day one, graduated with me.  Lisa: Wow.  Mark: So there's something about that meditation training, Nakamura and the skills, and the values on team building and taking my eyes off myself and putting them on others, the taming of the ego, it really allowed me to help lead my team to success, right? We made it about the team and not about me, and everyone else was about them. And they— the team's, the instructors are, their job is to select the next crop of teammates that they will go to war with.  Lisa: Yeah.  Mark: So what they're looking for is not who's the toughest guy, not who's the best athlete—  Lisa: Not the coolest, yeah.  Mark: Yeah, exactly, not the best looking whatever. It's, ‘Are you a great teammate? Are you gonna have my back?' So that's something that I guess I demonstrated.  Lisa: Wow, that's a brilliant intro into your background. What fascinates me with you too is that you like— you know, because the SEALs are known for being hard asses. I mean, you know they are hard people, they have been through tough stuff, they go through tough stuff every single day that you're out there. But you've got this meditation side, you do a heck of a lot of yoga. You do, you talk about authenticity, and I know you don't like the word vulnerability, but you're quite, you're open about the stuff. That's quite the opposite of most, in the training that you get. I suppose this comes from Nakamura being your master, that he taught you that very early on, they're sort of the both sides of the coin.  I get that question quite a lot, too. When they— when people read what I've done and achieved and so on, they're like, ‘Wow, you must be a super hard ass.' And then they meet you and realise that you're actually very vulnerable or cry a lot. I'm very full of mistakes and problems and stuff that I'm working on at all times. But the difference is, I think, that you embrace both sides. And that you are always in pursuit of excellence, and you're always improving, and you're always developing. And I found that a really interesting combination in someone who's so physically tough and mentally tough to have had both sides. Was that a hard thing in the beginning with the SEALs? Mark: I think you're right. I did learn that initially from Nakamura and so every day, you know, I was so committed. Every day I would stretch and I would do my breathing practices and my visualisation while I was going through SEAL training. Every day in the SEALs, I do some version of that. It was you know, it's difficult for a military operator to keep a daily dedicated practice going if you're up 24 hours a day, and you're in combat. Honestly, when I went to Iraq and combat, I meditated and trained yoga every single day. And it had a profound effect on me, right? In the war zone, all my teammates are just getting frayed at the edges, and I felt strong and confident, and I knew I was going to survive, because I did, I had that vision. I was going to be home with my child, you know, my wife and son.  So it came first from Nakamura, and then I started into yoga. It's not my career, it's important people know, I did plus-20 years in the Navy SEAL, but about nine years active duty and 11 years reserve. So as reserve, so nine years after I joined, even while I was on active duty, I started to get into yoga. But when I got off active duty I had more time. I went full on in, and that was because— actually it is a blessing in disguise. I was living in San Diego and there was no seido karate out here. Otherwise I would have gotten back into seido karate. So first I got into something called goju karate, I got a black belt there. It was very similar to seido but it lacked the spirit and like the mental, the meditation, so I didn't really stick with that. And then I got into ninjutsu, thinking ninjutsu might be a little bit more spiritual. I really liked the teacher but he was a horrible business guy, so right on the cusp of getting my black belt, he shut his school down and ran out of money.  And then I found yoga kind of about the same time as ninjitsu. But I didn't really understand it until I read Patanjali's yoga sutras and also Paramahansa Yogananda's autobiography yoga. And those just absolutely shattered my paradigm of what was possible and what yoga was, as the oldest science of mental and personal development. So I fully went into yoga and I ended up getting 700 hours of certifications and started my own yoga program and wrote a book about it eventually, but, and started teaching it to SEALs. And so all this I was still a SEAL officer. Because I didn't retire from the SEALs in 2011, but I was able to do all this and build a business that started to teach Navy SEALs everything I would have been learning. And that's called SEALFIT. That was the business that everything I've been learning and applying in my own life, right? And this was this integrated model of development. It started with Nakamura where it wasn't just about the physical. It was about physical, it was about mental, it was about emotional, it was about intuitional and spiritual aspects of our being. In that, I learned that if you train those together, then you will integrate, you'll become whole again. What that means is you'll become more, you have access to more of yourself. You have to put more potential. You can maintain peak performance, you can serve more profoundly, you can do more, you've got way more energy, way more enthusiasm, way more motivation, way more peace of mind, way more clarity.  It's extraordinary. In a sense, it's like coming back to who we are. That's why I call it integration. In fact, the word ‘yoga' means union or integration, and so does is zen, believe it or not. Those practices and traditions are really all about becoming whole as a human again, as opposed to fragments and separate, separate from yourself and separated from others. So I stumbled upon this, and created my own path or my own model. And then when I had started to teach it to SEALs and special operators, and other military operators, a ton of people, even from New Zealand, some of your listeners might have been to my training. Then I started to recognise that, ‘Wow, this is necessary in our culture.' Because most Westerners have no connection to this, this way of living of, taking care of the internal while you are working in the external, the yin and the yang, the balance between being and doing, becoming whole again, so you can do your work from a whole perspective as opposed to a fragmented, separated self. Which leads to suboptimal results, at a minimum, in at least a flat out crisis or destruction at the maximum level. And that's, we're seeing that both in from the investment in violence, military build-up, conflict, as well as environmental degradation is because human beings have not learned to be whole, and they don't recognise that we're all interconnected. And every one of our thoughts, every one of our emotions, every one of our actions has an implication or impact on the whole. Lisa: Yep. This is really good. Because I think, we live our lives very much in the doing. We're busy all day, we're busy with a billion million things, we're running businesses, we're— we've got families and so on. And it's really hard to find that stillness. And I know that even as an athlete who, I think for years, I was just headed through the wall, you know, taking— Mark: Most people are, that's how they learn, until they hit the wall, right?  Lisa: Yeah, no, I hit the wall a couple of dozen times before, because I was a bit thick. I didn't wake up, said, ‘Hang on, this stuff isn't working anymore.' And it works when you're 20. And it works when you're 25. And it works when you're 30. And but when you start hitting your 40s, and you're still smashing the crap out of your body, and you're not really not refilling the tank, and you're not re-examining what the hell are you doing, I think that's when the wheel started, when the wheel started to fall off for me. And I'm like, ‘Hang on a minute, this— why isn't my body doing like, it wasn't what it was supposed to do?' And when you've grown up, though, with that expectation of, you have to be tough, you have to be hard. And I grew up different to you. But I had a dad who was very, he was an awesome father, but he was a hard ass. And he expected you to be tough and mentally tough, physically tough. He didn't really tolerate a lot of weakness or sickness or anything like that. And he was an amazing dad, but he pushed really hard. And that sort of makes you think, well, you have to be hard all the time. And then when you break down, then it's you being weak. Instead of looking at the whole picture, and quieting the mind and doing these things like meditation was for me. Yeah, I know, I hear it's really important, but I can't sit still. I need it twice as much. Mark: Yeah, well, there's a reason for that. It'd be fun to talk about. But think about, when I reflect back, and my SEAL training and all these other guys were trying to be hard, and they had the same thinking, because America has a real soft side to it. But there's a lot of freakin' warriors in America. And we have that same kind of what your dad's talking about. Gotta be hard. Like, there's no room for weakness. It's got to be tough. You think about the metaphor, the guys who quit were just bad asses. Yeah, why did they quit? They quit because they didn't— they lacked the emotional strength to understand what was happening to them in their either most extreme moments of crisis or moments of just doubt, right? And then they're like, so they let uncertainty in, let doubt creep in and corrupt their decision making and then, one mistake leads to an injury we call, quinjury. And you've probably seen this in endurance athletes' is when all of a sudden the injury kind of crops up and then the person's out. And then really, reality is they created that injury to quit.  Lisa: Yeah, because they wanted a way out.  Mark: Because they wanted a way out. It's very subconscious. It's not prepared. It's not preparing properly. It's not recovering properly. It's not understanding that this is a long game and getting your ego out of the way. Lisa: It used to prop up for me every— before any big race, that in the week ahead of that race, I would get sick. And I would, I'm sure that that was my subconscious trying to stop me do it. Mark: Yeah, I've given you an out, right. And so— Lisa: You've got a cold, you've got the flu. Mark: Think about the metaphor between, if you got a tsunami coming, like, consider tsunami a metaphor for a crisis, or a big challenge, like BUD/S or a 50 mile or 100 mile race or something like that. There's a tsunami coming. Would you rather be a mighty oak facing that tsunami, or would you rather be like a reed?  Lisa: A reed, definitely. Mark: Yeah, if so, when I went to SEAL training, I tried to be the reed, right? I tried to be really flexible. I didn't let anything bother me. You know, structures would come up and, during Hell Week for us, which week seven back then. But now it's more like week three or four, seven days non-stop training around the clock, no sleep. Everyone's heard about that. Like a day, Thursday, like the day before, we're over it most of it, we're down to 60, 35, maybe 45 or 50, actually, in our class from 185 already. And instructor evil comes over and he's like, ‘Mark, I don't like you, I'm gonna make you quit.' And in my mind, I was like, ‘Good luck.' And I even think I started— Lisa: That confidence! Mark: I don't know, it was just my spiritual strength saying, ‘No, you're not going to get me to quit, you can't.' And so I actually was challenging him in my mind, and it must come through on my face. And he goes, ‘I'm gonna wipe that smirk right out that effing face.' And he just made me start doing 8-count bodybuilders, which are like a burpee, basically. And I remember in my mind thinking, ‘Okay, all right. Let's do this.' Right? All I got to do is one 8-count bodybuilder at a time, until he gets tired. Lisa: Until he gets tired. Mark: Exactly! So that's what I did. I just did one. I just want, did one 8-count bodybuilder. And then I just did one 8-count bodybuilder. And then I just did one 8-count bodybuilder. And when we got up to like— Lisa: You broke him. Mark: 800.  Lisa: Holy heck.  Mark: Which is nothing, right? I did 24 hours of burpees last, a couple of years ago, as part of our challenge. We did, check this out: we did 22 million burpees as a tribe to raise money for veterans. And part of that was to break a world record where our six-person team, you would love this, three men and three women, we did 36,000 burpees in 24 hours, so I did 7,500 or something like that. So 700 is nothing. Back then I didn't know if it was going to be 700 or 7,000 or 70,000. But he got bored, and he walked away at about 700, and I have to say, that worked. That's a good strategy.  Lisa: What about the burning in the muscles and the exhaustion and the running out of glycogen—  Mark: You can do anything, one at a time.  Lisa: Wow.  Mark: It's just like in a race, I'm sure you get to a point where all you have to do all you are saying to yourself is, ‘Just one more step.'  Lisa: One more step. Yep, absolutely.  Mark: Same thing. We call them micro goals. And so we teach— I started teaching these to SEALs, and the best guys already did this. But now we teach it, the SEALs are teaching what I call the Big Four. And they're teaching box breathing for controlling their stress, they're teaching positive internal dialogue, and mantras. And they're teaching visualisation, visualise every event and visualise what the end state looks like for you and then visualise the mission and whatnot. And then micro goals. Like go to BUD/S thinking about eight months of training, you go to BUD/S thinking about, ‘What do I got to do today to win this?' And then when today gets hard, you just collapse. ‘What do I need to do to win this evolution or event that I'm in?' And then when that gets harder, you know, it's like, ‘What do I got to do to get to the next five minutes?' Anytime you quit, or you have the thought, ‘Well, this sucks. I think I want to quit.' You just say, ‘Well, let me just push through to another— let me just push through another five minutes.' Or, ‘Let me just get to that berm up there,' if it's a run, or Log-Pt could go on forever. ‘Let me just finish this evolution, then I'll make a decision.' And so you just keep kicking the can down the road of the pain and the quit decision and the suffering and eventually the suffering goes away, because that's a temporary state. Lisa: And this is like that you just dropped so much golden inside of two minutes. Take a couple of those because these are things that I've took me 20 years to learn. Mark: Play it back in slow motion. Lisa: You know, like this. That's how that's how I break down. You know, every mess of the like, I remember and my listeners have heard me tell the story. But I ran 2,250 kilometers from New Zealand for charity.  Mark: Wow. Good for you. Holy cow.  Lisa: Yeah, no, it's like, but I've been so busy in the build-up doing— I've been at other races around the world, done Badwater in the States, just come back from that, just launched a book and then I'm standing at the start line. I've been so busy in the thing that I actually hadn't thought about actually running the— because I was just like, ‘Yeah, I got everything, sweet.' And then I'm starting at the start line and I just had a panic attack, like the first real big panic attack. And I'm not, because you're staring down the barrel of this—  Mark: Like, holy shit, this is too high to climb. What the heck have I done? Lisa: What the frick was I thinking? And I went home, we had media, we had all my crew and everybody there and I just went away behind the one of the cars and got my mum, my mummy ‘cuz she's my safe place, went to my mummy and I just bawled my eyes out. And said, ‘Mum I can't do this, I don't know what the frick I was thinking. I can't, and there's no way out.' And mum's just like, ‘Hey,' as she hugged me, as mums do. And she said, ‘You don't need to do 2,250 today. All I want you to focus on is that little box up there,' you know, that was a couple of hundred meters up the road. ‘That's what you got to do right now. And then you're going to, you're going to get through to lunchtime, and then you're gonna have lunch. And then we're going to get through to this and that.'  She just broke it down into pieces, and she took all of that load that I was just like, ‘Oh my God, this is huge,' and she broke it into one step at a time, basically. And that was some of the greatest learnings that I've taken away for every event that I've done when— and there have been times when I've broken and I've just crashed on the ground. I don't know how to get up and people have come along and they've got me up and walked me through the next few steps. Or the next— and that has gotten you over that hump, you know? And I just wait, you know, that's so much gold, right there, what you've just said. I think if we can do that in daily life so when we're faced with some big scary thing coming at us, how do I just get through this moment? And we're very— if you can get through these impulses, you know, like there's 30 seconds, through the 30 seconds almost, sometimes you can get to a place where you can cope again. And then you can sort of get back up. Mark: And this goes back to like the internal dialogue. Most people don't examine their internal dialogue. And this is where meditation is so critical. And you can also consider, like running or swimming or biking, endurance sports generally, are also very good for examining internal dialogue, because you're going to meet resistance. How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and your motivation. Literally, we use the terminology ‘feeding the courage wolf' versus ‘feeding the fear wolf'. Feeding fear is allowing negative dialogue and negative imagery and negative emotions to kind of run the rule the roost of your psychology, and that weakens you. Negative thoughts demonstrably weaken you as a human being.  Lisa: Yeah, because—  Mark: They're gonna not just weaken your motivation but literally musculature-wise you get weaker, and that's been proven through kinesiology. So positive thoughts create a higher vibration, which bring more energy, more access to more creativity and motivation. And so you got to train positive thoughts. That's what I mean by feeding the courage wolf. And the more you feed the courage wolf by training positive mantras and positive thoughts, then the more you starve the fear wolf until he goes away, until he just doesn't have the food anymore. And those patterns dry up and blow away. So I created a bunch of positive mantras that I would say in the SEAL training, and they're still with me today.  As soon as I start a hard workout, they kick back in. ‘Feeling good, I'm looking good, ought to be in Hollywood. Feeling good, I'm looking good, ought to be in Hollywood. I can get out of me in Hollywood. I've got this easy day, piece of cake. Boo yeah, hey, got this. Easy day, piece of cake. Boo yeah, hey.' And then I'll synchronise that with my breathing. So, hardcore, run three steps and inhale 1, 2, 3, ‘I've got this. Easy day. Piece of cake.' Exhale 1, 2, 3. Right.  Lisa: And the rhythm is good too, hey. Mark: Yeah, exactly. So I was synchronising those before, the big four. The first skill I said, box breathing, it's really breath control. Running, anything you're doing, always breathing through your nose as best as possible, and controlling the breathing and creating a nice rhythmic pattern with the breathing. It's going to be different depending upon what you're doing. If you're lifting weights, gonna be one thing, if you're running another, swimming another. Swimming creates its own little breathing patterns, because head in the water versus out of the water. But just starting there, controlling your breathing and adding a positive mantra, or a positive internal statement that's linked to the breath is transformative. Not only does it keep you in the game athletically or whatever, but when you do this during your regular day, day in and day out, you're training your mind to be really positive and to be very concentrated. So you're developing concentration power. So you're turning your mind from like a scattered floodlight, which is flickering on and off, the monkey mind, to a very, very concentrated laser beam that you can point that laser beam on anything, any task, any project, and it deeply improves your productivity, the ability to get things done, you know, significantly.  Lisa: Wow.  Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on www.patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two Patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us. Mark: And then the imagery, right, the imagery. Well, let me backup. The other thing that that process of paying attention to the quality of your thoughts and changing them to positive thoughts, and increasing your concentration power, as you start to look at the dialogue too, in your head. What is actually going on? And you recognise that typically what's going on in your head is a series of statements that are also based upon belief systems, but it can be framed as questions. When people say, ‘I don't think I can do this,' what they're really saying is, ‘Am I worthy? Am I competent?'  We can begin to recognise that our belief systems are based upon questions and statements that may or may not be true. And so you want to take a look at the ones that are questionable, especially if they have a negative quality, and say, ‘Is that true?' And you realise, ‘It's not true. I am worthy. I am competent.' Now, I may not feel that yet. But the more I tell myself that and the more I can see that in myself, and the more that I meditate and actually feel into my worthiness and my confidence, and the more I work to eradicate the emotional side or shadow that may have, be tied to related to that — for me, it was because of the childhood abuse, I kind of felt a little unworthiness and whatnot, even though I was capable as a SEAL, it's still kind of plagued me for a while, until I had to stare down that wolf of fear and be like, ‘Yeah, that's all bullshit. That's just a story that I'm holding on to and I was able to release all that energy and feel that worthiness now.' Then that leads to a whole nother set of questions, which are extraordinarily empowering, right. So when I— understanding your capability as a human being, the potential that you have, the power that we have, you can then project that into the future and say, ‘What does victory look like for me?' Right? ‘If I'm going to run this 2,000 meter, or 2,000 kilometer race, and I'm going to raise money for charity, what is that for? What's my ‘why'? And what does victory look like?'  You get a clear sense of what victory looks like. And then you can even do that with the micro parts. So you chunked it down into 100 kilometer segments, let's just say. What does victory look like for that segment for the next five days? What does it look like for today? What does it look like— this is, in a sense, what your mom was doing, but she was doing it from the other way around. What does it look like for the next six hours? What does it look like for the next three hours? You get a clear picture because you're asking the right questions, and you're winning in your mind before you step foot into the battlefield. So asking really powerful questions like, what does victory look like? Who is on my team? Who's got my back? Why am I doing this? How is it related to my purpose in my life? These are the questions that we start asking, because now we've drowned out the negative incessant chatter, which is just holding us back and distracting us. We've created this space, and I use the metaphor still water pond. We've taken our mind and we've created it instead of this choppy, you know, bouncing all over the place, turbulent thought stream, largely negative, we've calmed down. And it's now this still water, and on this still water, you can look at it, you can really see a reflection clearly. So that's kind of a nice thing, you get to see your true self more clearly, but also, what you drop into that water in terms of the thought is going to ripple out and affect everything. So you end up dropping thought seeds that are really powerful, instead of chaotic and negative. Lisa: Because there's this whole, these automatic negative thoughts and if we think about how we evolved that was there for our survival. Because we needed to be aware of dangers and things in our environment, so we were always looking for the bad thing that was going to come at us. But in our world now, where we just, we have this constant chatter in our head. And it's, you know, I've certainly dealt with this for a long time, and I and I fought against the whole sitting still thing, and focusing inwards. Because it's very unpleasant, when you having— when you want to move, you just want to move. Give me a hard ass workout, any day, over meditation, you know, because it's just like this energy, this agitation, but that's why I need to do it. So that I can break through that piece of the puzzle. And then you can tap into strengths that you didn't know you had, and quietness, and then you start to really reflect and like, for me, it has only really been, even in the last few months where I've been— My dad passed away, and it was one hell of a battle for his life. And I, yeah, it was a real— I was fighting against the system. And it was a mess of battle. It's all good when you win, but it's also good when you don't win. And so this one, just been— I was a bit of an existential crisis after that, because I'd lost this battle for my dad, who I loved dearly. And it made me go inward. It made me start to really question some of the biggest things because you start realising that life's short, shorter than I think it's gonna be. You want to understand why, and then going inside and doing some deep work and doing some trauma work and doing all that sort of hard stuff has been great. There's always good that comes out of shit. You never ever want to go through things like that, but when you do, you can always turn them into something, a learning curve of some sort. And having that, I was listening to you with Bedros Keulian, who's also is another one that I— Mark: Yeah, he's an awesome guy. Lisa: Yeah, he's just a rock star. in you, when you were talking about how you went through the zen process where you were, for a start, you started meditating, but you're just learning to quiet the mind. And then after a few months, that became then mindfulness. Where you're starting to observe yourself from outside in splitting the mind or somehow you put this and you're actually observing yourself as this higher self, if you like. Can you explain that a little bit? And how does that— Mark: Yeah, so glad you brought that up. Because I wanted to talk about that. Because you're right. It's— meditation is hard, especially for active people, which everybody, everybody listening, everybody in the Western world is pretty much hyperactive. Yep, that's what we're taught; it's reality. Like, ‘Go, go, go. Do, do, do.' We get over-committed. Now we have, you know, constant distraction with our iPhones and social media, and it's just gonna get worse, worse, worse. Wait until we get plugged in with a neural link, you know, like, wow. So we got to push back against that. The only way to push back against that is to disconnect from all that and to sit still, or stand still, or take a walk. But don't do anything, right. Don't do it for a goal. Don't do it to check it off a box. Don't do it to be the best meditator you know. Lisa: Tick that box.  Mark: It doesn't work, right? Lisa: That was what I was going to— Max: There's no goals here. Right? It's about becoming still, getting that clarity and this still water mind back, if you ever had it, but we had it when we were kids, of course, but in a different sense. So that you can evolve. You know, let me start there. I think that there's two reasons we're on this planet. One is to evolve to become the best version, highest and best version of yourself in this lifetime. The second is to align with our calling or our purpose. And those two really kind of go hand-in-hand or hand-in-glove. You can't evolve if you're constantly doing. You actually will stay stuck. You'll keep getting your ass handed to you. You'll keep suffering. You'll keep feeling victimised. And you'll keep looking outward for the solutions. And you'll keep blaming other people, or society, or taxes, or the government, or God. Lisa: A lot of fingers are turned. Mark: The answers lie within, right? And so the only way to go inward is to slow down and just be quiet. Right? So it's imperative. Now, why do most people fail? A) Because everything I've just talked about, they haven't been taught this. And B) because they're body mind, their body brain is very, very agitated. It's amped up because you've been taking all this stress on throughout your life. So what I teach is that the first step in meditation practice isn't mindfulness. It isn't a mantra practice. It's just a box breathe, which is a pattern breathe, five-count in, five-count hold, and five-count out, five-count hold, or four, or three, if you have trouble with that. And just let that nostril breathing in that massaging that the vagus nerve, stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system. And it's bleeding off stress and bringing your body brain back into my balance.  Lisa: Yep.  Mark: When your body brain is back into balance, your brain is going to experience that as a lower frequency rate. Lower frequency means fewer thoughts, right? If you're in gamma, it's like tick-tick, popcorn brain. But if you're in alpha, like listening to beautiful music, classical music, or you're maybe doing some journaling, your mind stops racing. It starts to get into— Lisa: A lovely alpha state of focus.  Mark: Yeah, and so the box breathing practice trains your mind to get back into alpha, trains your body to de-stress, and you do this. It might take you months, usually about three months. I— my clients have this extraordinary calming that comes over them. And they're already changed. But this is, you know, just the preparatory work, right? This also, for those who are working on their physical structure in their health and their weight, this also has enormous benefits because you begin to feel a lot better. And you begin, you know, you're starting to breathe in that life force again. You're getting more oxygen with every breath, and you're retraining the breathing patterns so this becomes your more natural state. If you, let me just pause here, if you train for 20 minutes a day, have a five-count box breath, that's three breaths per minute, over time, and might take a year or more, you're gonna eventually settle into a natural breath pattern of six breaths per minute, which is now proven to the optimal. Lisa: Exactly.  Mark: I've been doing this for years, I never knew that, it just settled out there to where six breaths per minute through the nose was standard for me, or a standard, and that's what will happen to you.  Lisa: Yep.  Mark: Yeah. But those are full breaths, full exhales, getting all the toxins out there.  Lisa: Basically the exhale. Mark: It's enormously beneficial for your body, and everything starts to come back into balance: you start losing weight, you start eating better. Because you want to eat better, you start sleeping b

When your loved one has a serious illness, the world feels a bit darker. But you shouldn't lose hope. In this episode, I talk to Cushla Young, my lifelong friend and the co-author of Relentless. This book recounts my mother's road to recovery despite seemingly insurmountable odds. Cushla and I talk about the challenges my family and I face to cope with my mum's sudden illness. You'll also hear a little from my mum and her experiences through this ordeal. Our circumstances didn't stop me from being relentless. My goal was for my mum to recover, despite the experts saying otherwise. I wanted to extend my mother's lifespan and give her the best quality of life I can. Throughout my mother's treatment and rehabilitation, I had to step up and take control. I managed to compartmentalise things before they got out of hand.  If you want to learn about my relentless effort to defy the odds, this episode is for you. You will gain insights into how I challenged myself to keep my family together in a time of crisis.    Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover my relentless journey of helping my mother recover from aneurysm. Learn important lessons about the value of health and extending your loved ones' lifespan. Gain insights from how I maintained my composure and became the backbone of my family in these difficult times.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Relentless: How a mother and daughter defied the odds Listen to other Pushing the Limits Episodes: #71: Cushla Young- Seizing the Day in Paradise #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova   Episode Highlights [04:43] Cushla's Interview with Lisa's Mum, Isobel As an educator, Isobel shares that she felt terrible when the doctors told her about what she can't do after the aneurysm. Getting a driver's license boosted Isobel's confidence. Isobel advises people who are going through a rough time to hang in there and continue to fight. To maintain her health, Isobel is currently going to the gym, taking yoga, undergoing hyperbaric treatment and attending art classes. She feels amazing about herself. [14:04] How an Aneurysm Affected Isobel and the Family After the aneurysm, Isobel went from an active individual to someone who couldn't function. Lisa shares some medical mishaps on the day her mum was rushed to the hospital. These mishaps caused delays in Isobel's surgery. It took 18 hours for Isobel to be taken into surgery because she had to be airlifted to another hospital. The fear of death coming to her mum was a big wake up call for Lisa. [20:03] Lisa's Relentless Fight for Her Mum's Life In the initial phases, Lisa was in shock and was extremely terrified. After processing the situation, she was in a ‘mission mode'. Lisa's father came up to her, saying that they needed to plan the funeral despite Isobel still being alive. When people are in crisis, you need to take control and give them jobs, so they don't panic. Over the next few weeks, Lisa was relentless in organising her family and the logistics surrounding her mum's medical needs. [26:14] Sustaining Herself Throughout This Journey Lisa shares her experience crossing the Libyan desert with an abusive boyfriend. During that extreme situation, she learned to compartmentalise. She will fall apart, but not right now when there's something that needs to be done. Lisa and her family had to stay with Isobel in the hospital around the clock for she could go any moment. Lisa also had to learn a lot about aneurysms, medicine and rehabilitation.  Amidst all this, Lisa's dad experienced heart problems, so he had to go home. [32:17] The Importance of Self-Care Lisa knows the value of exercise and having fresh air from time to time.  She made sure to take at least half an hour to an hour for herself. When you're in stressful situations, you tend to put self-care aside. However, it's vital to have systems in place to manage the stress so that you're prepared to continue fighting. [35:02] Lisa's Family Lisa's brothers were very supportive throughout the whole process. Lisa's family trusted her and what she told them to do. Her father also stepped up to help. He was relentless in caring for and supporting his wife's recovery. [38:25] Coming Home from Wellington after the Surgery Lisa was happy that her mother was stable. But she is also worried during the flight because any dropping of pressure could cause Isobel's death. Lisa sneaked into the hospital to have a friend check her mother for sleep apnea. And the results confirmed her suspicions. She had to convince the medical staff to provide her mother with a C-pap machine. Her mother could breathe properly with the machine. [44:43] Moving Lisa's Ageing Mother Lisa shared how they came up against people who insisted on having her mother placed in a facility. A social worker was against them having a caregiver. Lisa shares that she had to fight for the resources she wanted for her mother. [46:08] Caring for Isobel at Home Lisa and her family were willing and able to care for Isobel in the comforts of their home. A social worker told her that they wouldn't be able to care for her mother adequately. But Lisa remained relentless in the face of all these judgements. She and her family wouldn't go down without a fight. [50:57] The Importance of Mindset Professionals show you statistics based on their knowledge and experience. Don't discount their expertise, but don't lose hope. How you approach things is critical. You have the power to control your health and well-being. Lisa brings her mum to the gym daily for this reason. Lisa wants Isobel surrounded by athletes pushing their limits. If you want to stay alive, you need to work hard to keep fit and healthy. [1:00:28] Living and Lasting Longer Living a relentless life means taking lots of small steps and letting them accumulate.  By being relentless, you'll find more fulfilment and last longer.  Lisa shares that she wants to push degeneration out for as long as possible. There's a lot of research now that helps you live longer and better. Don't feel guilty for investing in your health.  If you want to learn more about how Lisa takes care of her body and her family, tune in to the full episode. 7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘She was really the rock of my world. And then that turned upside down very much overnight. And you go from being this adult kid to complete role reversal where you're now having to do everything for your mum.' ‘We need to set up systems and processes and understand our own bodies and how our bodies work so that we can manage the stress levels.' ‘What I want people to understand is you have to fight for the resources that you want for your loved one.' ‘I'm only ever going to listen to the ones that tell me I can do, not the ones that I tell me I can't do. They may be right. I'm not saying they're not right, but I'm gonna throw the book at this. I'm gonna do whatever it takes.' ‘They're (professionals) making educated guesses, based on the statistics of the past whatever and their experiences. And I get that. And we can't give people false hope. But we've also can't take away all hope.'   ‘The older you get, the more effort you have to put into [working hard] if you want to stay alive... If you still want to be alive and enjoy life, then you have to fight for it.' ‘If you have some self-care and take those small steps, whatever that may look like for you at the time of your life, then you are living a life that is relentless.'   About Cushla Cushla Young is a life-long friend of Lisa. They met in a running retreat they both participated in 7 to 8 years ago. She is also the co-author of Lisa's book, Relentless: How a mother and daughter defied the odds. Cushla is a teacher at the St. John Bosco School, New Plymouth. She is also a Trustee and Educational Coordinator at the Taranaki Gifted Community Trust. Having an interest in gifted education, Cushla provides intellectual and creative ways to support students with advanced and complex learning skills. The other things Cushla is passionate about are digital technology, literacy and pedagogy. Cushla currently lives in New Zealand with her family. If you want to reach out to Cushla, you can find her on Twitter.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can find comfort and hope in fighting for their loved ones' lives. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential. With your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hey everyone. And before we get on the way with the show today, I just want to remind you to check out all our great programs that we have. We have our www.runninghotcoaching.com, where you can find out all about our online run training system, we get video analysis, your customised personalised plan made specifically for you, and ongoing support and help and education around everything running. So check that out at runninghotcoaching.com.  We also have our flagship epigenetics program, which is all about optimising your genetics and making the best out of them and how to do that. Understanding what your genes are all about and how to get the right food, the right exercise, the right timings for everything. Understanding every aspect of your life, your place, your career, your social environment, all of these things, your predispositions and much more. So check that out. Go to lisatamati.com and hit the work with us button and you'll see our Peak Epigenetics program right there. Also a reminder to check out the longevity and anti-ageing supplement that I am now importing into New Zealand and Australia in conjunction with Dr Elena Seranova, a molecular biologist who is behind this product. Now this is all about the sirtuin genes basically, which are all your longevity genes. Now NMN is a precursor to something called NAD, nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. And this is an absolutely essential compound for every in every single molecule— every single cell, I should say, of your body. It's very important in regards to ATP production, and in regards to metabolic health, in regards to autophagy, in regards to sirtuin genes and upregulating those. Make sure you check out the episodes that I did with Dr. Elena Seranova and head on over to www.nmnbio.nz if you want to find more about the science of that, and why I am super excited about this product, this longevity and anti ageing product, NMN.  Right. Now, today I have something very, very different. I've turned the tables on myself and I have a very dear friend interviewing me about our book that we wrote together. Cushla Young, she's a, got a master's in English and she is the person who helped me rescue my book when I had a hell of a mess, basically. So I hope you're gonna enjoy this interview. This is all about my mum's story. It's about mindset. It's about going up against all the odds, it's about going against the establishment. So it's a lot of things we cover in this interview. So you're also going to hear from my very special mummy. She's going to come to work and tell us a little bit before she heads off on her coffee date. So now over to the show with Cushla Young and Isobel.  Well hi, everybody. Welcome to Pushing the Limits. Today I am doing something very unusual. And so hi everybody in YouTube land who's listening to this as well. I want to introduce my best friend, Cushla Young. Cushla, welcome to the show.  Cushla Young: Thank you. Lisa: For starters. Now I'll give you guys a bit of background. Cushla and I have been friends for now, a decade or so. Cushla is the lady that helped me write this book. Without her it would not exist. It wouldn't have come out before Cushla came along. The book is Relentless: How A Mother and Daughter Defied the Odds. It's my latest book, and Cushla is the magic behind that book. What we're going to be doing today is talking about what the book is about, which is the story of bringing my mum back from a mess of aneurysm, major brain damage at the age of 74, when it was against all the odds, when the medical professionals were telling me the brain damage is so bad that she's never going to recover.  Being an athlete I went, ‘No that's not happening, and we'll find a way.' This is going to be all about that story. Now I'm going to hand over the reins to Krishna to actually interview me, but I've actually got a very, very special guest sitting here next to me, who is the actual star of the show. And so Cushla is going to, she's going to take off for a coffee date. So I'll have to let her come to work first. So I'm going to pass you over to my very special mummy. There she is, Isobel. And she's gonna talk to Cushla for a second so I'll just pass over the headphones. Cushla: Hand over the reins. Lisa: You're on, Isobel.  Isobel: Okay. Cushla: Hi Isobel, morning.  Isobel: Good morning, Cushla. How are you?  Cushla: Taking off for a coffee date soon, are you? Isobel: Yes.  Cushla: So you are a guest of honor for a few minutes on this podcast. This is, I'm going to be a little bit different because I get to interview your daughter rather than her interview others today. Isobel: That's good. Cushla: So, but we'll start with you. So you have been on one heck of a journey over the last few years. Isobel: I sure have.  Cushla: So how can we start with how you're feeling now?  Isobel: I'm feeling good.  Cushla: You're looking great.  Isobel: I can go for a coffee and I can go walking on my own. And I can do almost anything.  Cushla: When Isobel left my house after a lovely glass of wine the other day, you didn't have one, but Lisa did. You drove, didn't you? You drove her home? Isobel: I did. Yes. I can drive now. That's good. Especially if Lisa's having a wine. Cushla: You get to be a mum.  Isobel: I do, I get, revert back to being mum. Yeah.  Cushla: Yeah, and that must have given you a lot of independence that you have lost for quite a few years.  Isobel: Yes. It's awesome. You don't realise how isolated people are. They haven't got— We all have a way of getting around here. It's isolating. Yeah.  Cushla: And can you tell us a bit about what you have been getting up to? I understand you've been doing some art classes with your sister. How's that going?  Isobel: Not as well as I would like to but it's, we're doing all right, you know?  Cushla: Yeah.  Isobel: I'd like the results to be a bit more spectacular. But—  Cushla: It must be nice to be creative.  Isobel: Oh it is. It's good, it does me good.  Cushla: Now, do you have much of a memory of the hospital time?  Isobel: No. Cushla: No. What's your first memory that you can recall?  Isobel: Probably where we went to a meeting with all the big guns— Lisa: At the hospital.  Isobel: At the hospital, and they wrote me off, really. Cushla: Did they? They underestimated you as well.  Isobel: I can remember saying— Lisa: I was feeling good. I was feeling good. Isobel: I was, I was feeling fine before this. Now. I'm feeling terrible. I have been demoted, I've been, lost my independence. Just because they were talking like they were, they shouldn't have done that.  Lisa: They took away all your confidence. And— Isobel: Yeah, they just. Cushla: And so your background is similar to mine. You're an educator.  Isobel: Yeah.  Cushla: Have been for decades and decades. You must understand how demotivating it is when somebody tells you what you can't do rather than what you can do. Isobel: Yeah, that's it exactly.  Cushla: So when did it change for you after that meeting? What were some of the first things that happened that gave you a bit more confidence? Lisa: Driving?  Isobel: Getting on a driver's license probably was a major breakthrough. Lisa took me down to the dam by the port and just— Lisa: It's been months. Isobel: Happier— Cushla: Round and round you. Isobel: You will, ‘now you drive.' I was totally gobsmacked. Cushla: But you did it.  Isobel: I did it.  Cushla: And I understand the doctor was utterly shocked—  Isobel: He was.  Cushla: —when you went in to get your medical for your license.  Isobel: Totally blown away. Cushla: Yeah.  Isobel: That was a blow away.  Cushla: It had probably been a while since the doctor had responded that way.  Isobel: Yeah, I think so. He was a nice doctor. So that was good. Cushla: So could you give some advice to someone who might be going through something pretty tough at the moment. What would you say to them?  Isobel: Just hang in there and— Lisa: Fight. Isobel: Fight hard. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to grit your teeth and just carry on, really. Yeah. Cushla: You're one tough lady, aren't you?  Isobel: I must be.  Cushla: Definitely.  Isobel: So that's what we did.  Cushla: Can you describe some of the routines of things that you do at the moment that keep you in such good health? Isobel: I go to the gym most days.  Lisa: Do weight training, cardio. Isobel: I do weights, I do cardio, I do walking on the treadmill, yoga. Cushla: And you still do your hyperbaric as well?  Isobel: Yes, every day at the moment. Cushla: Everyday? Wonderful. Still eat the smoothies that Lisa makes you in the mornings? Isobel: They're pretty terrible.  Cushla: But they're good for you, right?  Isobel: But they are good for me. Broccoli is not exciting, and it's sickening. Cushla: What we've noticed is, about over even the last six months, is how fit and agile and glowing that you are. That's amazing.  Isobel: It is amazing. It's amazing that you said that. I don't always feel it.  Cushla: Right.  Isobel: It's hard to know where you're at, so.  Cushla: Yeah, I think sometimes what you see is yourself reflected in others' eyes, and that's a really good indication of how far you've come.  Isobel: Yeah, and I have come a long way.  Cushla: Really. Isobel: Yeah, a really long way. Lisa: A bloody long way. All right, now you can go get coffee. Isobel: I'll pass you back to Lisa— Lisa: —and get yourself a coffee date. Cushla: Enjoy! Isobel: I will. Lisa: Thanks, Mummy.  Isobel: Okay.  Lisa: She's an absolute legend. Thanks, you have a nice coffee. We're now actually going to get into her backstory. Because, I would have done it the other way around and had her at the end of the show. But she needed to get to a coffee date. So she's just rolling. Yeah, we're rolling with the punches.  But Cushla, this— can you, I'm gonna pass the reins over to you fully. Because you know the story, you lived it with me, you helped me from the get-go pretty much. So over to you. Oh now I'm an interviewee. Cushla: Got you. We're flipping the tables, aren't we? Lisa: Yeah, we sure are. Cushla: To be interviewed for once, which is fabulous. So this has been a long journey for you and your mum and your family, and you're right. I was, I had known you for a few years before this happened. I think from my perspective, the thing that was so shocking about what originally, with the aneurysm, with your mum, was just how quick things changed overnight. I think we see Isobel now and— how old is mum?  Lisa: She's 79.  Cushla: 79. So we're going back quite a few years, and I used to often pop into the shop and see your mum, and just pop in and say hello. And she is now but she also was been a very intelligent, clear spoken woman that used to do acro-aerobics all the time, she was very fit and healthy, very independent, working still pretty much full-time. Lisa: Yeah, she was. Cushla: For somebody watching, to see overnight that she went from that, from a completely functioning full-time working adult, to just being, nothing was there. Overnight, the aneurysm took her from being completely functional to nothing. I think the shock in that first visit and I saw her quite a few weeks after the aneurysm, and you're back up to New Plymouth. You'd been in Wellington. The shock of seeing her lying there, she had aged a decade overnight.  Lisa: Yeah.  Cushla: It's hard. Hard to see. I think the shock of that must've ripped through your family quite viciously. You notice that change overnight. Lisa: It was huge. Yeah, to have growing up with mum being always the one supporting me. And the one that was there for me in all the phases of my crazy, upside down life that I've had, you know, with all my adventures supporting me with all lower— dramas and relationship breakups and divorces and business growing.  Cushla: Rooting for you at most of your races. Lisa: Oh, yes. Yeah. She'd seen, been there, done that with me, I can tell you that she had a hard life with me. She had a good life, she had exciting times with me. She was really the rock of my world. And then that turned upside down very much overnight. And, you know, you go from being this adult kid to a complete role reversal, where you're now you know, having to do everything for your mum, you are advocating, you're fighting, you grow up really quickly, even as a fully-grown adult. Obviously, I still am very much, when you've got a parent, you're still like a kid in a way to them. That is that was a biggest shocker for me I think was to be, no, now you are the one that's caring for your mum, and you are going to have to pull out all the stops to help her and it's you know, no longer about you being the selfish egotistical athlete, and there's nothing wrong with it, if you're an athlete, you have to be if you want to reach, know, do the stuff that I did. But that was a shocker. And then not, like the— we had medical research mishaps from the very get-go when mum had this aneurysm that happened early in the morning. And an ambulance driver came into the house, you know, they got her into the ambulance up to the hospital, he knew already that she was having a neurological event. And he told the doctor so much, and he just ignored it. He ignored it.  He said, ‘No, she's having a migraine, I think. So we'll just leave it for a few hours and observe her and give her some painkillers.' Well, you know, ‘Thanks very much for that.' The first six hours not knowing, and she was dying, basically. She was dying. And I knew she was in deep trouble. And I didn't know what to do. Because at that point in my life, I had no idea of anything like this. So I was never, you know, in a situation like this, I didn't know what was wrong with her. But I knew we were in trouble. And that was a very big wake up call. I actually got our mutual friend, Megan Stewart, who's a paramedic here and the head of the ambulance here. And she came up to the hospital at that time. She sort of rattled some bloody cages very quickly. And because she knew immediately what was happening, stroke or aneurysm or something neurological, migraines. She went and told this doctor what for. He then relented, and we got a CT scan. And that's when we saw the blood right throughout the brain. So that was a very big wake up call for me in a number of ways. Obviously, the shock of it happening to your mum, the fear of her dying, she's being very, very, very close to death at this point. And then realising that, you know, the medical system had not worked for us. And I'm not— you know, we're all human, and we all make mistakes and stuff. But that was a pretty big one. That was a pretty big one. Cushla: I think, in those situations, we want to trust the people that are— the medical professionals that are around us. For the most part in ED, they're an amazing group of people. But I think also there is a lot to be said for your mum. You knew what a migraine looked like, you should have before. And it's a matter of trusting yourself, isn't it, enough to then think, this isn't to your question what you're saying, and then fight as hard as you can for a different outcome. Because my understanding about aneurysm is there's a golden hour, or it's really important to be treated.  Lisa: Exactly.  Cushla: A short time.  Lisa: Surgery, that's the golden hour, they talk about getting you into surgery within the hour. It took 18 hours. 18 hours, because not only do we have the medical mishap and we also had the fact that we had to get to our Main Hospital down in Wellington, neurological. Living in a regional area, unfortunately, that's just the way it is. But we had to wait another 12 hours for the air ambulance to actually get to us, and when you're over 65, you're sort of bumped down the hierarchy, especially if you— if they don't think you're a good, you got good odds. So, you know, we— there were, at that time we had a baby that needed help, and that was more urgent than mum. They have to make those calls. I understand. I don't like it; I understand it. It's your loved one and you don't really give up. Cushla: Not at the time because you're also going through the shock of what's happening and trying to process that. In that moment, can you describe, I suppose I want to focus a little bit on what was happening to you and your body. Because I think the thing about this really, this story is that it's not just about a mum surviving an aneurysm, but it's also about you and your family and how you've managed to pull yourself back together as well.  So not just Isobel but yourself. I know that a lot of us, all of us will face a moment in our lives where we have to handle a bit of trauma.  Lisa: Yep.  Lisa: What was going on in your body and how did you cope so that you had the ability to fight for your mum? What are you doing in your mind? Lisa: So in the initial phases, Cushla, you know, you are in shock, you're out, you're terrified. But very, very quickly, oh, especially after the mishap, once I realised what had just happened and the ball's up that that was, and that it was likely going to cost your life. I just went into what I call mission mode. Like, ‘Okay, right, I am not going— I'm going to research the hell out of this. I'm going to learn everything I can. I'm going to be hypervigilant. I'm going to watch everything they do. I'm going to question everything they do. I'm going to get my family organised.' Because I had get them down to Wellington. My father was, of course, falling to pieces because it's the love of his life. He's been, you know, married to her for 55 years. He came up to me already in the ED and said, ‘We better start planning the funeral.' Because they were, you know, saying to us, she's like, unlikely to survive. And I'm like, ‘Dad, we're not even considering that. She's alive, she's still breathing, and we're gonna fight with everything we have. Here's a list of jobs to do: I want you to go ring so and so, organise this, get the boys down, my brothers down to Wellington, blah, blah, blah.' When people are in a crisis, you need to take control and give them jobs to do so that they, their, you know, their amygdala, that their permanent part of the brain doesn't go into complete full-blown panic, and which doesn't always work. And I'll relay a story a little bit later, where I did go into full blown panic. It's all very well and good to say this. But at that point in time, I was like, ‘Dad', I shook him, I grabbed him, I held him and I said, ‘No, you've got this and this job to do, we're going to do it, and follow me, dad. Follow me.' And that was basically how it was then for the next few years. Yeah. My brothers as well, they were very much, ‘What do we do?' I had no idea at the time, but I pretended like I did. Fake it till you make it. What we're doing this is how we're going to operate over the next few weeks. So it was being down on Wellington together, organising the family to be down there, all the logistics that go along with that, and your jobs and your, you know, partners and all the rest of it. And then a 24-hour watch over Mum, and being hypervigilant, explaining to the boys everything that I was learning medically, because I was like, studying forever, I was just going, going, heart out, trying to understand and get up to speed on something that I was completely not aware of prior to this, learning what an aneurysm does, what vasospasms are, what I've been looking for, what they— signs.  We were only in the neurological unit, we weren't in the ICU, which, looking back when I arrived, what the hell. When she got down to Wellington, they get straight into surgery, they started draining her blood off the brain. She started to— start to have that pressure released. But then we had to decide the next, in the next couple of days, though it had stopped bleeding at that point, but it was about to go out in time again, it could go at any moment. How do we clamp it? What do we do? Would we cut into her brain and put a physical clamp over the area? And it was a mess of aneurysm. Like we're talking a 16 millimeter huge aneurysm. We went up through the femoral artery, and we weighed up the pros and cons and you make that call. She's got a 50% chance of dying this way, she's got a 30% chance of dying that way, pretty much. So we'll take the lesser evil, but she was going to have to have two operations and in that way you know. So that was gonna be really touch and go, really touch and go. I remember them wheeling her off for that operation. I think it was on day two, through the doors, and you just don't know if it's the last time you're going to see them alive, and the whole just trying to hold your shit together. Cushla: I know that you're very good at compartmentalising parts of the— of something when it happens. What I remember you talking about when we were writing the book, was how you were able to put the jobs that needed to be done in that box. The research you were doing in this box, your family in that box, and probably, and I know this because we had phone calls and I was in touch with you at the time, your emotions and your shock and your trauma in this box. It was a matter of kind of keeping you know, all those juggling balls in the air at one time. But also, and importantly allowing you to have that emotional spot as well. And I know that you were very good at compartmentalising and giving yourself time to do that, but not letting it overtake you, letting you drop all the other balls at the time when you were dealing with the emotional side of it. I think that's really important because I know— so when Lisa and I first met, I was a bit of a Lisa Tamati fangirl, before we became friends, and I got to know you really well.  Lisa: And then realised, oh no. Cushla: Yeah. I mean, we just saw you as Wonder Woman. You know, there's tough, tough, you know, athlete. Then I got to know you, as a human being, of course, a woman, there's a vulnerable side to you. But what I think is really important at that time, an immediate trauma time, as you gave yourself time to release a bit of that stress and that trauma by leaning on your husband Haisley, by your phone calls to me. But also, like, I know that you went for some runs, went to get gym, threshed it out, you probably screamed at the ocean at one point. Do you know? That's also important, isn't it? It's not just— Lisa: If you want to sustain— we knew this was going to be a long, long, long battle. While we hoped it was going to be a long battle, a short option was not a good one. This is something that I've learned doing ultra marathons: is to— in particular in the Libyan desert crossing, where you have to read the book for the whole story. But I did an expedition across the Libyan desert with three other guys, one of them being this abusive boyfriend that I was with at the time. There was a very extreme situation that we were in, we needed two liters of water a day, etcetera. And I'm having this big domestic fight with the boyfriend right in the middle of the Libyan desert. Cushla: In the most extreme environment on the planet. Lisa: In the most extreme environment, walking 45 kilometers a day with 35-kilo backpacks and only two litres of water a day in a military bad zone, not a good time to breakup with a boyfriend of five years. And in that moment, when he left me and disappeared over the sand dunes, that was a turning point for me, and I fell apart initially. And I was like, ‘Oh, God,' started  crying in the rails. I can't afford to lose any more tears here. I've got to pull my shit together, because I cannot let the energy dissipate that at the rate of I want to actually survive. It was getting down to that sort of level of you know, you're going to survive this or not. And so I learned in that moment, really a very hard lesson in compartmentalising things in your brain. So like, ‘I'm going to fall apart, but not right now. I'm going to put that off right now because I have to focus on this, and getting through the desert and surviving.' That's been actually a really good lesson. It's never a pleasant one to actually have to instigate where you have to actually compartmentalise.  Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody. And we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on www.patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two Patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us. Lisa: But in this in this situation where you're dealing with— you're having to study like really hard. And we have access now to the greatest minds on the world that come in, all those information about out there that you can study. So I was studying all the drugs that they had on, all the procedures they were doing, what is the normal plan, and what happens when you have an aneurysm, what are of the some of the dangers, or of the things that I should be looking out for, what are the signs in your body. You know, all of these types of things in the initial phase and then later on at it went into rehabilitation research and study. And so that was one aspect of it. And then we had a 24-hour clock system, much to the disgust of the people at the hospital because they didn't want us there 24 hours. They don't like that. There was no way I was leaving my mother when she could die at any minute alone. No way.  So I had massive battles with the hospital, for them to be able to allow us in. And then having to fight for that. So you're fighting on all these fronts, you're already fighting with— your mum's in deep, deep trouble, and then you're fighting against these systems. And they may have some good reasons for those systems. But there was no way I was leaving my mother alone when she could die any second. A family member had to be with her at all times. And I was very, very strict on that. We had some big blow-ups at the hospital. We got through really in the end. And we tried to be as unobtrusive as possible when we did what we were. And we picked up things that they missed, because she was on a neurological ward, they only come around a couple of hours into obviously, patients. But going back to the whole compartmentalising things. I know how to manage my body really well, and how to pace myself really well from doing ultra marathons and stuff, and expeditions. And so I knew that we were going to be in the for the long haul, I knew sleep deprivation was going to be a problem, I knew that the family dynamics were going to be a problem, that there was going to be fighting because of the stress there was it we were under, and we were all living in one motel unit. And that mum was in deep crap, we had my father to look after who was just, you know. Cushla: And he was down with you in the initial stage.  Lisa: He was here, he was; and he's very much, was a homebody. He didn't like to be out of his garden and sheep. So he was very, very stressed on that front, and of course his wife in such dire straits. He was, but he— so we managed to, had him to manage home because he started having heart problems. And so I had to eventually actually send my dad back home and actually lied to my dad that, ‘She's okay now, we've got her, Dad. She's all good.' Because I think that we're gonna lose him. I was making those sorts of decisions and just running the ship. Like you said, I know the importance of, for me, especially exercise and fresh air for my mental well-being, that if I was going to sustain it, I had to have at least half an hour to an hour every day out from this whole thing, where I just go and do a workout.  Again, all the fear, the cortisol, the adrenaline that's running through my body flat stuck and try to manage it, and making sure that she was looked after, and that time. You know, you feel guilty and everything for leaving the hospital all. But you had to do that after a few days. You know, just a couple of days, I didn't, but after that. It was— it's setting all these things in place. And we need to do that in our daily lives. We need to set up systems and processes and understand our own bodies and how our bodies work so that we can manage the stress levels and we can manage the movement that we need, the sunshine, and needs for sleep and recovery and all those aspects. And of course, in a situation like that, sleep deprivation was a massive, and there's not much you can do about that, you have to function at that level for as long as you have to.  Cushla: And I think a lot of people that are in stressful situations, whether or not it be something like what happened with your mum, or even at work or just in daily life, big stressful moments. A lot of people put the self-care to the side. And they just think, ‘Well, I'm not that— I don't have time for that,' or, ‘I shouldn't have time for that.' That's when the guilt that kicks in, and yet, it probably is one of the most important things to prioritise in terms of your day and compartmentalising your day through to handle stressful situations because it allows you to have the focus and the energy that you need and get back into the the stressful—  Lisa: Into the fight you're in. Yeah, absolutely. You need to be able to have that energy put back in. It might only be 10 minutes out in the bloody— you know, like when we, here's another situation which we'll probably get onto later with my dad. In his situation, in the hospital for 16 days, fighting for his life. It was sometimes 10 minutes in the waiting room doing press ups. That was all I could get before I went back into the battle zone if you like.   Cushla: Just to release that.  Lisa: Just to manage the cortisol. Reach, I call it discharge and recharge, and then reset. Come back into the moment. But yeah, it was a heck of a lot of lessons to be learned and then leading in a crisis situation. My brothers were amazing. They were very supportive, and they were, followed everything that I asked them to do, basically. Because I'm the study-er of the family, I'm the one that is into research and science and studies. They trusted me to do that thing. And they were like, ‘Well, you tell us what to do, we'll do it.' And that's really great. Because you've got your roles. That is, in having somebody lead the charge, so to speak, even though you don't know what you're doing, where you're going, and there's certainly no rehabilitation over the next years, because this process took years, having that person that's got that responsibility, got that, ‘This is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it, I just need you guys to do this bit and the other thing.' And my whole entire family were willing to do that. They were— my dad was just, jumping ahead in time, my dad was just amazing, how he stepped up to the mark. When he had a wife that had done everything for him pretty much. Cushla: He was, back when she came back to New Plymouth, he was cooking, and— Lisa: He was doing all the things.  Cushla: He was doing all the things, yeah.  Lisa: It was a shocker for him, but he stepped up to the mark to the best of his ability. He was the most wonderful, caring husband. He didn't give a— he didn't care that she— when she came back home for the first time, and we actually got her out of the hospital after three months. Now, I'm jumping ahead in time. But he didn't care that she had no function, basically. She was in a vegetative state who had a heartbeat. She was alive, and we were fighting. That was all he needed to know. He had his wife at home, she was alive, she's stabilised, we were fighting together, and we were on a mission. Every day he had his jobs to do and the things to do. He was just relentless in his love for her, stepping up.  Cushla: So going back to the moment where— so she's in Wellington, and you need to read the book to find out what went on in Wellington. The moment that she was transferred back to New Plymouth was a bittersweet moment, wasn't it? You were able to come home and be with Haisley and be back at home with the family and friends around that were helping. But you knew that the care that you would receive back in New Plymouth wasn't at the level that it would be in Wellington, basically just because Wellington is way more resourced. And fair enough, you can have a very small region. Taranaki here, you know, we're a little provincial spot in New Zealand. So we knew that we wouldn't get the care that you got in the big city. So talk us through how it was like to come home— Lisa: It was terrifying. I was happy for all those reasons, but at the same time, and I was happy that she's apparently stabilised. But she was in ICU for the good part of the two of the three weeks that she was in Wellington when she was in and out of coma. Once she'd gotten out of the coma, then they had to get the stent out of her heart, and she kept dropping. What happens when you take the stent out is that pressure can start rising in the brain again, and three times as they tried to take the stent out, the pressure went up. On the third time, they said, ‘Well, if it doesn't work, this time, I'm going to have to operate and put in a permanent one.' And the third time, it worked. But it only worked for the next 24 hours, and then they were like, ‘Right, she's not— her pressure's not going up. She's keeping consciousness, she's not falling back into the coma. She's good to go.' And I had researched, I knew that that was not the case, that she couldn't have— that pressure could go up over the next 70 days at any point, and if that pressure went up, it would happen very quickly, and she wouldn't— she could die.  So I knew that even though they weren't telling me that, she could still die in the next 70 days. If that happened in Wellington and the pressure started to go up, they were— they might be able to recognise that, they might be to go in and do something. They wouldn't be able to in New Plymouth. I was hypervigilant on trying to understand how I could notice if something in her consciousness was going down, right. All I could do was to understand some of the symptomatic things that she did which might exhibit if her pressure is starting to go up, because you wouldn't be able to communicate it to me, you wouldn't be able to see it, you would slowly lose more and more of a brain till it was gone basically. So that was a huge fear bringing her home, and of course putting her in an airplane with a pressure change. Yeah, I didn't know what it would do. In fact, it was nothing, but there wasn't a problem, really. But you know it this time you just— Cushla: You don't know.  Lisa: Yeah, so for the next 70 days, I'm like, hypervigilant. If I noticed something down on, I'll be like, ‘I think she's doing this and doing that.' Then they took her off the oxygen at the same time, and that was a big problem. They didn't see it as a problem that she was, ‘Her oxygen states are alright.' What they were forgetting was that she was sleeping 18, 20 hours a day. So when she was asleep, she wasn't breathing properly, and I believe she had sleep apnea. So I said to them, ‘I want a sleep apnea assessment.' They said, ‘No, she doesn't need that, why should she need that? Her oxygen stats are okay when she's awake, so why would she?' I knew about sleep apnea. So I got a friend of ours, he's actually a sleep apnea consultant, Jez Morris. I said, ‘Come into the hospital illegally, would you do that?' He said, ‘Yeah, I'll do that.' Well outside of rules actually, so not illegally, but you know.  We sneaked into the hospital at nighttime, put on these machines onto her, did an assessment overnight, because it had to be an overnight thing. We got the results, and when it came back, severe sleep apnea. Now, this is absolutely key. Like her oxygen levels were down at 70% SPO2. she was Cheyne-Stokes breathing, which is not a good thing. Probably going to be on your way out in the next couple of months. Her oxygen was so low that she was knocking off any brain cells that she has, the infections that are in her body were just going apeshit. So bacteria was exploding, and they're already known. That was actually the one of the signs that I picked up because I had done a lot of racing at altitude, and I was seeing a lot of the signs in her that I had at altitude when I had altitude sickness and things like that.  That was at first wind, because I had to convince the bloody staff that we needed to have the CPAP machine on here, and they weren't trained in CPAP machine, so they didn't want to do that. I'm telling what she needs, she's got this and you know, him being a sleep physiologist was able to convince them that okay, this is a good thing for her now. He said he'd been banging his head against the brick wall for decades, trying to get for stroke patients an assessment that is part of the process. Because very often, this happens that that part of the brain is damaged in the stroke or the aneurysm, and even in things like concussions, that you can have a change in your breathing situation. And that part of the brain that monitors that is not working properly. So it should be staying apart and perfect, and that's what I believe, and that's what he believes. So anyway, we got the CPAP machine. Initially started to have little bits of improvement, but we're already two months, three months, two and a half months or something into her time in the hospital and we're running out of time. But she's stable, nothing we can do with her, basically. She's pretty bad, and we've given paid lip service to some physio and some speech therapy and stuff, and now it's time to get you out of the system. Cushla: And I think at that point, I think they, if you saw Isobel at that moment in the hospital, you would see an old woman who was probably on her way out. You didn't see the vibrant person that we saw before the aneurysm, that was so independent, and so highly functioning. For the hospital, I think they just saw an older woman— Lisa: Another older woman.  Cushla: —another older woman, and a family that wasn't willing to accept the fact that they had an ageing mother. So there's that little bit of not understanding who she was before, and how abrupt this change was. We knew that if we could just get her back, even if it was a little bit back, then you could take her home and start working on rehab. Can you talk about how quickly they just wanted to move her into a home? Lisa: Oh yeah. And this is what happens very often when you're over 65 is the answer is get them out of our budget into someone else's budget. That means putting them into a hospital-level care facility. If you've got anything, that's the normal route that you go, and they will try and convince you of that route, at least in our situation. I can't speak for everybody obviously. We came up against a brick wall of this, especially the social worker who shall remain nameless, who just was totally against us being able to have the caregiver that I wanted, the caregiver for in the morning for an hour, and one in the evening for an hour, which is part of, they do provide the service and so on. But it costs more money, and you stay in the budget. That's the key point.  We were fighting over these resources. What I want people to understand is you have to fight for the resources that you want for your loved one. And we have limited resources, it's a fact of life. If you want to get some of those resources, and you think your loved one is worthwhile, worth it, because they've spent their entire lives paying taxes, being good citizens and have a right to have some of this, then you better be prepared for a fight because that's what you're in for. And we did have the fight. Cushla: And it was interesting that, because as a family, you were willing to bring her home and you're willing to do a lot of the care yourself. You didn't want to be taking up a resource in a care facility. You were prepared to do that yourselves, as a family, at home. So in a sense, there's a lot of money to be saved. Because I know how much you have given up and how much it costs the family to care for her at home. But that is what you wanted, and your family wanted was to just, to have her home. I remember in the book, you spoke about wanting Isobel to hear familiar sights, smells, sounds around her to aid her in her rehab. And that in having those, you felt that she was going to make more connections, neurological connections, because she was in her own home, with her own people around her, with her own sights and sounds and smells around her. Can you talk a little bit about how positive you felt that was? Lisa: Yeah, that's a huge piece of the puzzle. I had a friend's mum who actually worked in stroke rehabilitation. She really encouraged me to do that and said how important this was, and it just made total sense to me. I knew that when you're in the care of any facility, no matter how good they are, they can never provide the love and the attention that you can. Because they've got other people and you're just another patient and in— they provide a magnificent service and so on when this is absolutely necessary. But in this case, we had the willingness and the ability to do this. They said to me, the social worker said to me, ‘There is no way in hell you are going to cope with her. She's 24/7 around the clock care, two people at all times, there is no way you're going to cope with her.' I actually came and threw my books on his table one night, across the table at him. And I said, ‘Read these. This is who I am and my family are, and we are not giving up without a fight. We may go down fighting, but we're going to go down fighting, we're not going to go down and take the easy route out. It is not in our nature.'  It's a fundamental difference between a family that's a fighting family and a family that isn't. It's very much influenced by the people in power in these situations, the medical professionals, the people that are associated with all of it. And you have no confidence to stand up against all these professionals, usually. They're the ones that have been to medical school, they're the ones that have been to whatever, social work. Whatever the case may be, and you have a tendency to think, ‘Well, they know better than me.' But one thing they don't know is you. And they don't know how strong you are. They don't know the resources that you have. They don't know your mentality. And they don't know, really, they're all guessing as to what will actually happen based on their experiences. But that's what becomes partly a self-fulfilling prophecy. So when they say to you that there is no hope. No, that's their opinion that there's no hope.  I had time and time again, people telling me, ‘There is no hope, there is no hope, she's 74, her brain damage is so massive, it cannot be that she would ever.' I was like, ‘We'll see.' I'm only ever going to listen to the ones that tell me I can do, not the ones that I tell me I can't do. They may be right. I'm not saying they're not right, but I'm gonna throw the book at this. I'm gonna do whatever it takes. And it's all about attitude and effort and grinding it out then I'll take that one any day, I'll take that option. I'm a fighter. I'm a worker. And my family is too, and we're not going to go down without a fight. I've seen lots of— I saw lots of other families going through the same process, because this thing's happening every day in every hospital around the world, right? It is very much, ‘Well, statistically, this person's not a good bet. Therefore we'll just go through the standard of care, we'll be the— do the humane thing, we'll do all this— tick all the boxes or do it all right.' But the anomaly cases, the cases like mum's, why is nobody coming to say to me, why do I get— no, I'm out there telling everybody that story. That's why I've written the book is to empower other people in these types of situations, even different ones. But why is nobody asking me, ‘Well, what did you do?'  Cushla: What did you do to get there? Lisa: They've been— I'll let you know, when they mum here today, talking and walking and going off for coffee and driving up to see her friends, you would have no idea that she ever had anything.  Cushla: No.  Lisa: She's just completely normal again. But I was told that was an impossibility. How many people are told, you have a terminal illness, you are going to die of this thing? When you plant this sort of stuff, they're making educated guesses based on the statistics of the past whatever and their experiences, and I get that. We can't give people false hope, but we've also can't take away all hope. Cushla: No. That's a really powerful message, I think. I was talking to a friend of mine who is battling with cancer at the moment. She has the most amazing mindset, her mindset. So she's— you know, she was told she had three months to live, that was, I think, six months ago. Her mindset— and she's just been through some chemo and the tumors have shrunk. Her mindset, basically, is that cancer is not welcome back. It's just not. I'm going off to live my life. If I die of it, well, okay, I die of it. But in the meantime, I'm living my life, and I'm— it's not welcome back. She is charging in life and sure, she has her rough days. I really love how you said, it's— there's a responsibility for them not to give false hope, but at the same time not to take away. similar situation with my father, he has myeloma, so cancer of the blood. I think at the time, the doctors said, ‘After this treatment, you have between five and fifteen.' He immediately said, ‘I'll take the 15, thanks.' Because it puts them at that, at the point that it would have taken them to 85, and he was quite happy with it, because at the time he was 69. I love that. And we're six years down now. And I think mindset is huge—  Lisa: Oh, yeah.  Cushla: —in the way that you approach things. Because, sure, we might, I might die by being run over by a bus today. But if you don't live life thinking that things are going to get better, that you have the power to do, to have control over your health and your well-being, the way that you deal with these traumas, if you don't have that mindset—  Lisa: You're definitely not going to—  Cushla: — you're definitely not, you're going to roll up in a corner. As my friend with cancer said when she went to hospital, she's like, ‘Oh, I'm surrounded by all these sick people.' Which I loved. Because she didn't see herself in that. Lisa: That's one of the reasons I take mum to the gym every day.  Cushla: Exactly.  Lisa: I don't take her, I didn't take her, we did go to the physio program at the hospital. Don't get me started on that. But it was dreadful, it was shocking. The story's in the book, if you want to read that one, that is a real battle. But they— I like her to be surrounded by athletes going for it. Because that rubs off on her. She's not a patient, she's an athlete. She's training for her Olympics. That is the attitude we take every single day. And I make no concessions that she is 79 years old, and, ‘Oh, isn't it time for her to relax?' No, it isn't time for her to relax. It's time for her to work harder. It's time to go harder and the older you get, the more effort you have to put into, if you want to stay alive. That is the key.  When you stop wanting to be alive, then yes, sit on the couch and do nothing. Because it's what that will lead to. If you still want to be alive and enjoy life, then you have to fight for it. This goes whether you're bloody 10 years old, or 95 years old, or 105 years old. If you give into the easy way, if you go, ‘I don't feel like training today.' I don't feel like training most days. But most days I train. Because it keeps me healthy, fit, and I'm being prevented. That's what I'm all about now is being in the prevention space, and then helping people who are in dire need navigate the waters of into connecting people to the right doctors in the right studies and the right information and the right books and all of that sort of jazz. Cushla: When I was in the depths of my training for a marathon, I remember that exact conversation with a friend. She said, ‘I can't—' You kno at the end of the day, I go for a run. And she's like, ‘You've just worked a full day.' And I'm like, ‘Yeah, And I'm tired. But I'm going to go do it because you never regret it when you finish it.' At the end of that 10k, you've never thought, ‘I really shouldn't have gone for that run.' You don't. You come back thinking, ‘That was awesome.' Sure you're tired, but you were tired before you went out for the run. So you actually end up more energised.  Lisa: You mean that will energise your cortisol in—  Cushla: My muscles might be tired, but you're energised.  Lisa: And you're getting stronger. Cushla: Yeah, I think that's a really good message, that you don't regret it once you get out. It's always just those first, first few five minutes, or I always say the first 4k of any round was always more difficult than the rest. Lisa: 20 minutes is all it is.  Cushla: Yeah, it is. It's always shit.  Lisa: So same for me. And if I warm up properly, then it's only shit. If I'm in a hurry, and I run out the door, and I don't, then it's gonna be more shit, warm up quickly.  Cushla: The more experience you have with training, or with whatever it is that you're doing for self-care, understanding that the first little bit is always tough. And the more that you experience it, the more you know to expect it, then you know that you're going to get the buzz at the end and you start looking forward to that. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, I had that conversation with my brother yesterday, because I've been telling him, he's very funny. He does a lot. He's amazing, boaties, he does weight training. He's a surfer, and he surfs sometimes six hours a day, but he doesn't do cardio. And, you know, I monitor his blood, and his health and his everything. ‘You've got to do some cardio, we've got some issues here, we need some cardio please.' And he's like, ‘I hate cardio, I don't want to do  cardio.' And then we'll do five minutes, and he's like, ‘I don't want any—'  and I said, ‘It's about pushing through that barrier. It's the same as if you tell me, why aren't you going surfing anymore? And I'm like, “Oh, because it's so hard, and I don't want to get hit by the waves and get smashed around.' And he's like, ‘what are you talking about? It's awesome.”' As long as you go through that barrier. Pushed enough, long enough to get through that, and I'm having to go through that.  It's always that initial adaptation phase, that time when you're not fitting, you're not good at the surfing or the running, or the whenever, when it's shit. Let's be honest. But if you hang in there long enough, if you stay with the tension long enough, th