In the Shift

Episode 104: James Beck works with an organisation called A Rocha Aotearoa NZ (https://arocha.org.nz/) which is a Christian environmental conservation organisation. In this conversation we discuss the trajectory of his spirituality and work, especially how and why he made intentional choices to move away from the up-and-coming charismatic preacher kind of life, to become someone who instead is pouring his energy into environmental care, both in his own faith community and also in helping to cultivate this across a diverse range of faith communities in NZ. We talk about the tension between despair and active engagement that can come in this kind of work. We also reflect on how the 'outcomes' of ecological action (e.g. reversing climate change etc) are not the only measure of the importance of caring for our environment; there is something deeply human and deeply spiritual that can resonate in this space. As a part of his work, James is the director of the Eco Church network in New Zealand (https://www.ecochurch.org.nz/), as well as the host of the podcast Ngā Here – the Many Connections - a podcast that explores the connections between faith, caring for nature, and living in the context of Aotearoa NZ.  

Episode 103: Shane has recovered from his table-saw inflicted injury and is back to continue our conversation reflecting on the journey to 100 episodes of the pod - and more specifically, on where our spirituality, theology and meaning-making is heading. We tackle the slightly contentious phrase "reconstruction", what we might or might not find helpful about that idea, and reflect on what is shaping us as we move forward. In that sense, this felt like an energising conversation that was able to explore how we're thinking, feeling, believing and living now as we move beyond the toxic forms of faith we experienced in the past.

Episode 102: One of the predominant causes of our problematic relationship with the environment is the belief that humans are superior over, distinct from and independent to the rest of nature. We think this way partly due to our religious traditions that have understood humans as being at the centre of what God cares about, at the centre of the story of creation, and that salvation is ultimately all about us and our relationship with God. We're also shaped by our modern assumptions that put us in a dominant relationship with nature, setting us up to see it as something to extract value from, to make profit from, to make progress from, and ultimately to exploit. These stories, however, are not the only way to see things. There are alternative stories we can tell about what it is to be here, to be human, and the ways in which our existence is fundamentally interconnected with all of nature. And this can have a profound impact on our spirituality, our life and our behaviour.

Episode 101: This is the first in a series of 4 episodes exploring the intersection of spirituality and a response to the climate crisis. This reflection explores how Christians have often thought about the 'end of the world' and how this so often shapes behaviours and attitudes toward our ecological systems and how we treat them. Some theological views of the future claim that things will get dark before the end, and Christians will be whisked away to heaven to escape the destruction of this planet. Other views suggest a kind of triumphant domination of the earth. In both cases, caring for creation is not really on the agenda. Even in theologies that suggest God will renew this earth, there remains a belief that God will ultimately act to make it all better one day. But what if God isn't going to disruptively intervene at some time in the future in the way people might imagine? What if divine presence and action - if it is to be anything - is always in collaboration with our own, and what could this mean for how we think about creation care, here and now?

Episode 100: This is it! We've gone and done it. We've made it to episode 100... and this means that we've ascended the mountain of success and significance and will finally get all the credit and recognition we deserve! Actually... it means none of that. But for this episode Shane Meyer-Holt interviews me (Michael) about the journey of the past few years, how I've changed since I started In the Shift - both in belief and approach - and the personal impact of this kind of journey. I hope that this conversation resonates with aspects of your own shifting path, as so many of us navigate the impact of changing faith, the impact on our community, spiritual trauma, a reconfiguring and reimagining of life, meaning and spirituality....and hope (or otherwise) for the future. 

Episode 99: In the Shift is back for 2025 - and we kick off this year's pod by looking at what is going on in the world right now. In many respects, the social, political and economic disruption we're experiencing is a natural consequence of the trajectory we've been on for a number of years - and is also connected to particular religious frameworks, beliefs and assumptions. Hyper-individualism, growing inequality, fears and uncertainties, authoritarianism, fascist (or at least fascist-adjacent) rhetoric, scapegoating, conspiracies and on the list goes... so what is going on, what angers are being inflamed, what vulnerabilities are being exploited, and where do we go from here?

Episode 98: Thomas Jay Oord joins the pod for a great conversation on how we might start to think about God in the wake of deconstruction. We talk about his and Tripp Fuller's 2024 book "God After Deconstruction" and discuss the different intersecting factors that lead to deconstruction and how and why there might still be a place for God on the other side. For those still left with the God-question, with a wondering about ultimate reality, with a sense of something 'more', this conversation explores God and meaning without certainty or in/out binaries. We chat through why we might still believe in God, and perhaps more importantly, what kind of God this might be.  For more of Tom's work, you can head to www.thomasjayoord.com.  You can find the book 'God After Deconstruction' by Tom and Tripp here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/195867026X Contact: feedback@intheshift.com Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift 

Episode 97: This episode explores the language of faithfulness to the way of love (of self, neighbour, other and enemy) along with the subversion of "power over" as being at the core of a certain kind of Christian spirituality. There's a contrast between this and the language of the church creeds - these creeds are statements about belief that have often defined Christian orthodoxy and have been used as boundary markers for Christian identity. But the creeds carry no mention of Jesus' vision of the kingdom of God, his inclusion of the marginalised, his challenge to the powerful nor his claim that the most important aspects of spirituality and humanness are defined by love. If "orthodox Christian belief" doesn't include these things, can it really be used to define what it means to be Christian? Or perhaps we can be free to innovate and re-imagine this for ourselves. 

Episode 96: This conversation explores what it might mean to make meaning on the other side of Fundamentalism/Evangelicalism. As we "leave" one world behind (even as we carry many aspects of it with us - both seen and unseen), do we enter the 'real' world or is there no neutral space? What kind of world do we want to build, what values shape our engagement with the fundamental questions of what it is to be here, of the kind of life we might want to live, our relatedness to the divine and so on. What kind of assumptions are made about reality in an age of autonomous individualism and neoliberalism? How do we care for each other and so what could healthier versions of sacrifice and faithfulness look like?

Episode 95: This episode explores what can happen to our identity formation and our sense of being in the world when we live in a world built on the assumption that the apocalypse, the return of Jesus, and the end-of-the-world is likely to happen within our lifetime. What happens to our ability to be confident in ourselves, to think about the future, to make wise decisions, to care for the earth and justice, and to live with a deep sense of grounded-ness? And then there is so much about end-times theology that is adjacent to contemporary conspiracy movements and (somewhat ironically for people who follow the "Prince of Peace") suspicious of efforts for peace and of those who work for it. Layered on top of this, is a fear of hell that drives a kind of existential dread - about God, about our own worth, and that also sees the world as filled with possible temptations that could lead to the slippery slope of damnation. So - just a few things that might need to be unpacked here, because living in this kind of world feels like it might all do something to our identity! 

Episode 94: Continuing our conversations around the world-building of our Evangelical/Pentecostal past, in this episode we examine the idea of depravity, sin and brokenness as being at the heart of humanness. What does this belief say about our fundamental identity, and how might that influence our sense of self as well as our relationship to God and others? We also explore the role that testimony plays within this world. Testimonies are often stories that uphold and promote the version of reality that is being built - and when there is only one kind of story arc allowed (i.e. from sin and brokenness to freedom and liberation) this means all sorts of stories and experiences are not given any airtime. It can also make it hard for us to see or acknowledge the ways in which our own life and experiences are not following the script.

Episode 93: In this episode we use the framework of 'world-building' (like we see in literature) as a way to start thinking about Evangelical/Pentecostal assumptions about reality and how they shape us. In particular we look at a world that is built on a high-demand God who needs to be pleased through obedience and sacrifice and the problems that arise with all of this. There was something so potent about this world as we understood it - it gave us confidence we were on the 'right' side, it provided us with something clear to follow and there was often a promised kind of freedom or breakthrough that was tantalisingly out of reach but available if we could just do what is required. We talk through this 'world' and how it shaped us, exploring the insecure and anxious attachment to God (and to leaders) it fostered, and how it impacts our sense of identity when we are formed in ways that constantly demand we bury our own sense of self.

Episode 92: In this conversation we explore a central theme of many Evangelical/Pentecostal/Charismatic approaches to parenting over the past few decades - namely, "obedience." We discuss the ways that obedience and compliance stem from the theological paradigm that views children born as corrupted sinners along with the looming threat of hell as eternal suffering for those outside the faith. In this context, obedience and compliance become central to parenting and discipleship, and in forming spirituality for all ages. But the outcomes of this can be deeply troubling; what does this say to a kid (or an adult for that matter) about God and about what really matters in the world? This can all contribute to a loss of autonomy and connection to our own wants, desires and needs, the suppression of genuine questions, fawning and people-pleasing extolled as a virtue (especially toward parents, pastors and leaders), and a susceptibility toward authoritarian and abusive leadership. So we tackle all of this, and begin to reflect on what it might mean for healthy spirituality, and what we should do with the themes of obedience found in Christian scripture.

Episode 91: In this conversation we explore the questions that come up for us around faith and parenting and how we approach the process of discussing spirituality with our kids. For many folk who have experienced some kind of shifting or deconstructing faith, this can feel complicated or come with feelings of pressure. What should I be telling my kids? What happens if they ask a question but I don't have a concrete answer? Can (or should) I pass on the good without also passing on the bad? Should I pass on anything at all? We talk our way through these questions not to offer solutions but to explore how we find ourselves navigating them at this point in our lives. We discuss what we hope for our own children, why we're interested in having spiritual conversations with them and how that might connect to the kinds of humans we hope for them to become. And in all of this, how these conversations can be approached through the lens of wonder and curiosity, hope and invitation, rather than fear, anxiety and punishment/reward. 

Episode 90: This episode is a follow-up to our previous episode (89) about navigating relationships post-deconstruction, and this time Shane Meyer-Holt does the interviewing! He talks here with Jane Kennedy (a counsellor who works in the field of religious trauma) about the gender and power dynamics that are at play within high-demand/high-control religious communities, and in particular she reflects on the ways in which patriarchal systems - both explicitly and implicitly - impact on what it means for women to find authenticity, to take up space in the world, and to negotiate through the complexity of friendships and relationships after faith change.  Contact: feedback@intheshift.com Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift  ------- Jane Kennedy is a Sydney based Counsellor working on Wan-Gal land. She has lived experience of religious trauma and works with people as they go through faith transitions, leave church and/or God. This experience, still frequently misunderstood, can be life-altering. She brings language and framing for the complexities of religious trauma to the counselling space and works with other Australian therapists to broaden knowledge among those working with affected clients. Jane has written her story, an e-book, The Sentimental Non-Believer, on Loving & Leaving God. Her mini-course, What I Wish My Therapist Knew About Religious Trauma, is a resource for therapists. A new course, Freedom from Religious Trauma, for those with lived experience will be available in 2024. With much of her career spent in the International Aid & Development sector, Jane has a special interest in trauma-informed programming and the mental health of practitioners. Jane continues to work in this space with agency teams, navigating the impact of saviourism and vicarious trauma using radical self and collective care models. Jane has two completely delightful adult kids, and lives with two demanding rescue cats and a cyclist who all wake her before 5 most mornings." https://janekennedycounselling.com.au/

Episode 89: In this conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt, we discuss the complexities of navigating relationships with those from our 'past' when we've undergone some kind of fundamental faith transition. How do we negotiate what happens when we change, when the version of ourselves that people are used to relating to has shifted, and what are the complex intersections that collide when we seek to take up authentic space in the world? 

Episode 88: After a podcast hiatus, the first episode of 2024 is here! In this episode I talk through my own reflections on what it means to make some kind of 'peace' with the past - especially as it relates to a past of harmful religious beliefs and communities. This can be a complex journey, even more so when this has impacted the very core of identity formation and important relationships in our lives. This is not about moving on and forgetting, but about continuing to make space for what we feel, as well as reflecting on the importance of understanding systemic dynamics, and of cultivating levels of empathy for self and others. The hope is that this points us toward what it might look like for us to take up authentic space in the world.

Episode 87: In this episode, Shane Meyer-Holt joins me for the final episode of 2023. This episode is an unplanned departure from our series on experience and comes after an unexpected hiatus with the podcast too. In this personal, raw, and wandering conversation, we talk through why we've not had an episode out in the past couple of months amidst the complexity of life and the presence of suffering and profound challenge. We also talk through the demands of hustle culture and how we care for each other in a world shaped by the internalised social and economic assumptions of what matters. And we use this to springboard into a conversation about our friendship, about how Shane and I have been present to one another through various crises and contrasting experiences of pain. This then connects to how vulnerability and empathy have shaped both the contours of our friendship, as well as becoming the central paradigm for our theology and spirituality.

Episode 86: In this conversation, Shane and I discuss the paradigms for experiencing God we used to hold and the theological shape of those paradigms. This led to a lot of energy being expended in trying to create the right conditions for 'experience', and an unspoken set of 'signs' that these experiences were being had - something that created a set of problems that we both found problematic in our life and spirituality. We then explore the ways we think about God now, how we see the God-world relationship, and what this means for how we may or may not experience the divine in the present. Finally, we undo some of this good work by throwing a spanner in the works - which means we'll need a follow-up episode to deal with all of that! 

Episode 85: Olivia Jackson is the researcher and author of the recently published book, "(Un)Certain: A Collective Memoir of Deconstructing Faith". In this book, Olivia draws together insights and themes from more than 140 interviews of people from around the world whose Christian faith has gone through a process of deconstruction. The range of experiences, stories and reflections from "regular people" (i.e. people without large churches, book deals, social media followings, or other forms of power) offers a sense of solidarity for those who may have felt isolated, confused and alone or simply curious about their own experience and how it is or is not reflected in the experiences of others. Olivia is able to draw out a number of themes from the wide range of stories, and reflect on the commonalities (among the many differences). In this conversation we talk about her own journey of faith, the pain of deconstruction and the unravelling of certainty, the variety of causes for a shifting faith, and reflect on what this can offer those who have experienced (or are experiencing) a process of deconstruction, or who want to understand the experiences of those who have. You can find Olivia's book here. Contact In the Shift: feedback@intheshift.com Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift  

Episode 84: In this second conversation on the complicated world of 'experiencing God', we explore the ways in which all experience is mediated, and so the meaning is thereby a matter (to some degree) of interpretation. We examine the role that suggestibility plays in certain forms of experience, and chat about the unhelpful ideas of 'spiritual hunger' or 'desperation/expectation' as keys to divine presence, and whether particular songs are 'anointed'. We also reflect on the ways we think about the relationship between God and us/world. Does God withhold divine presence and love for some kind of 'greater good', and if so, what does this say about God?

Episode 83: In this conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt we dive into the complicated world of understanding experiences of God. For some, particular kinds of experiences with God are central to their spirituality, to feelings of closeness with God, to a sense of meaning and purpose. And yet for others, the attempt to impose certain forms of experience have resulted in harm and even trauma. Some have never 'felt' what they've been told they're supposed to feel, have never sensed God in the way that those around them are apparently sensing God. Does this mean its all pretence, or am I simply being ignored by God? For many, this just ends up as a very confusing jumble - we might have had meaningful experiences but no longer know what to make of them, or we may have had a mixture of positive and negative experiences and now we're left wondering if any of it was real at all. So this episode is the beginning of a series of conversations trying to unpick all of this and see if we can make some sense of it.

Episode 82: Dr Karen O'Donnell is a specialist in theology and trauma. In this conversation we explore the nature of trauma and, in particular, we reflect on spiritual trauma and abuse and the ruptures it can cause to the embodied person. The field of trauma theology seeks to take the experience of trauma as a starting point for theological reflection - both in terms of critiquing the ways in which theological beliefs can cause harm, and also in terms of constructing theologies that can create room for what she calls 'post-traumatic remaking'. This conversation moves from grappling with the large scope of these ideas, to talking about the personal and very real experiences of trauma and how they impact us. Karen shares from her own experiences of grief and loss as we discuss how the theology, practices, prayers and worship of the church can either be a contributor toward harm (or even the cause of), or can help cultivate safe and nurturing communities within which we are able to rebuild a new self.  Please note as a trigger warning, this conversation includes references to various causes of trauma, including pregnancy loss, sexual assault and abuse, violence and spiritual abuse. Karen is the author of several publications including Broken Bodies: The Eucharist, Mary and the Body in Trauma Theology and The Dark Womb: Re-Conceiving Theology Through Reproductive Loss. You can find her on twitter: @kmrodonnell Get in touch with In the Shift via email: feedback@intheshift.com Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift

Episode 81: Marc Fennell is the force behind the new SBS documentary, "The Kingdom". It is a doco that explores the rise and fall of Hillsong Church in Australia (and around the globe), but that also asks harder and more nuanced questions of the wider pentecostal megachurch systems and structures that have grown so rapidly in recent decades. This form of Christianity clearly appeals so deeply to so many, and yet can also grow on the back of coercion and abuse of power that often leads to burn out, spiritual trauma, and to many thousands of unsaid, unheard stories of pain, dislocation and harm. In this conversation we talk with Marc about his approach and hopes for the doco, about his own story of growing up in these kinds of churches, the good, the bad, the ugly... and the kinds of hard questions that the new emerging churches should be asking of themselves (and that participants should be asking) if there is going to be a healthier future ahead. You can get in touch: feedback@intheshift.com Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift  

Episode 80: This is a first for In the Shift - a reissue of an older conversation! But in light of more stories, documentaries, investigations and interrogations of the megachurch story here in NZ, Australia and across the world in recent months, we thought it might be helpful to reissue the first podcast episode on our megachurch series - originally aired as Episode 55 in April 2022. Shane and I began talking about this because we both had history in these spaces, and there were stories hitting the mainstream about coercion, manipulation, burnout, abuse of power and just a litany of stories of people's lives being messed up through their experience in these kinds of spaces. In particular, here in New Zealand we were responding in real time to the stories from journalist David Farrier - but we also knew that the stories he was telling were not limited to one specific context, but were endemic across a whole stream of the contemporary church movement. So we began what was going to be a short series of conversations about this, and then it turned into a rather long series of conversations about all of this. So if you're new to In the Shift and you find this convo helpful, you can wind back to episode 56 and go with us on the journey. Here's the original blurb: ********* This episode is the first in a series of conversations between myself and Shane Meyer-Holt (who you may remember from way back in episode 3) as we respond to some of the deeply concerning stories emerging from megachurches in recent weeks and months. There are common themes found in the experiences of those who have suffered under the weight of pressure, expectation, bullying, harassment and abuse of power within these systems. Shane and I have been talking about this for more than a decade, having met while in the process of trying to extricate ourselves from the problematic church structures we had been deeply immersed in since our teenage years. Since then we have both explored very different ways of engaging in faith communities and ‘leadership'. But we have also continued to reflect on those things that make megachurches (or those following that model) so potent and effective. Effective at both the glories of success and growth but also at leaving a trail of pain and trauma - while managing to keep that suffering largely silent and under the radar (until now). This is the beginning of our processing ‘out loud' on these issues, dealing with themes that have in many ways been woven through the In the Shift podcast from the very beginning. If you want to get in touch to offer comment, question, story, insight, or to seek a bit of solidarity and support, you can get in touch with Shane and I via: feedback@intheshift.com

Episode 79: Amanda Pilbrow works in the space of helping support LGBTQIA+ folk in the church, as well as working with churches, pastors, ministry leaders and others to go on the journey to become fully affirming of queer folk in the church. She is the facilitator of the website www.alreadyenough.co.nz which is a sorting house for a vast range of resources in relation to this conversation. In this episode we talk about her journey as a young woman growing up within very conservative traditionalist church systems. We discuss the exclusion of women from ministry and leadership, and the impact this had on her sense of self. And we explore how her journey of processing through this is connected to the ongoing passion she has for the church to change its stance on queer inclusion. Her postgrad research focused on hearing the experiences of LGB Christians in New Zealand, and has deeply informed the way she approaches these conversations. 

Episode 78: This episode is a live recording from an event called "Reframing Easter" held in March of this year. Here I talk through my understanding of how the Easter story fits within the wider historical, cultural, political and religious context of its day. The imperial power of Rome, the backdrop of suffering for the Jewish people,  religious leadership and belief being used in the jostling for power, status and control, and the tense and very real potential for a violent revolution. Jesus lives and dies in the midst of this moment - and the meaning of Easter can only really be grappled with in light of what's going on here. Unpacking this story can then help us to make sense of how all of this might still speak to us in the present moment. It helps us to reframe ideas of Jesus' death as "atonement for sin", and to reimagine what "salvation" looks like in contrast to the power, violence and abuse of harmful systems, beliefs and practices.

Episode 77: One of the common themes of our recent conversations has been how churches have been able to co-opt Christian language and ideas and use them to enforce power, to gaslight victims, and to justify their actions as God-approved. This can often leave victims feeling confused, isolated and ashamed. This episode is a theological exploration of how the language of sin/repentance and blessing/empowerment is used in the biblical narrative in the almost entirely opposite direction to how we see it used in the contemporary church. In the biblical narrative, confrontation of sinners and calls to repentance are directed to those people in positions of power who are abusing that power. And the language of empowerment/blessing is directed at those who have been harmed, marginalised, abused and mistreated. Ironically (and sadly) in the church, those with power often claim the language of empowerment and blessing, and the language of sin/repentance is directed at those who are already vulnerable. This episode tracks the competing imperial and prophetic trajectories of the biblical story, and how the words of Jesus (and Paul) must be understood within this wider context.

Episode 76: Shane Meyer-Holt returns to the podcast, and this time he brings his church notebook from the nineties! One of the things we've heard a lot over the past year is “how can people stay in these toxic communities for so long?” or even more troubling can be the question “why did I stay so long?”.  We explore an old sermon by a charismatic American preacher we both heard when we were young and use it as a case study in how religious language can be used to condition people to a coercive system. This sermon - titled “Sons and Servants” - is a perfect microcosm of the journey over time for many folks; from a seemingly admirable desire to “do something for God”, through to a loss of boundaries, a dissolving of the self and an internalisation of authoritative voices that become the internal critic that we carry with us everywhere. Contact: feedback@intheshift.com Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

Episode 75: In the first episode of 2023, I (Michael) spend some time reflecting on the stories of the past year but in particular on the most recently published article by journalist David Farrier about church harm and toxicity in more NZ megachurches - a story that prominently features the church in which I spent around 13 years of my life - both as a participant, and also on staff for around 8 years. In this episode I unpack as honestly as I can the feelings that come up in this whole conversation, about what it feels like to speak publicly about a community that I once helped to build, about the long-term relational impact, and about why I think we need to hold people and communities/systems to account - especially when they are closer to us. All of this feeds into some reflections on why it continues to be so muddled and conflicted for so many people, why it's so hard for members to leave and/or move on, and why it's the inability to hear, empathise, listen and learn that become the most problematic features of these organisations. Get in touch via email: feedback@intheshift.com Support via Patreon: www.patreon.com/intheshift  

Episode 74: Carly Lahana and Shane Meyer-Holt are back for another round of Q & A! In this episode we respond to a range of listener questions on faith deconstruction, personal spirituality, church structures and systems, and some practical questions about what is possible in church life. These questions include: What do you do when all your beliefs start to unravel? How not to become "bitter"? What are some blind spots in the deconstructing community? Why are we still Christian? (why not just leave it all behind?) Do we still need church? How does the church move forward when it is overwhelmingly led by old white men? How is talk about money abused in the church, and is tithing biblical? Is there still room for quality, creativity, music and production in the church?

Episode 73: Dr Hillary McBride is a therapist, researcher, writer and speaker who brings a remarkable combination of expertise, insight and empathy to this conversation about spiritual trauma. We talk about why spiritual trauma is so potent, how it is experienced and held in our bodies, how negative religious attitudes toward our bodies can stifle our awareness of what needs to change and of the healing we may need, and how to move toward healing and re-integration. Hillary's most recent book is titled "The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding Healing, Wholeness, and Connection through Embodied Living" and is a highly recommended read for those navigating pain and trauma, as well for all of those seeking a more embodied and connected life. You can find Hillary at: https://hillarylmcbride.com/  Get in touch with In the Shift: feedback@intheshift.com Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift  

Episode 72: David Farrier is a journalist, documentary maker, podcaster, and the author of online newsletter Webworm. Throughout 2022, David's investigative work on Arise Church - one of New Zealand's largest megachurches - brought to light a toxic culture that included numerous allegations of burn out, abuse of power, toxicity and the covering up of claims of sexual harassment and assault. David's work also opened up a larger public conversation about megachurches (and toxic church cultures in general), and the narcissism, ego and systemic abuse of power that is often present in these spaces. In this conversation we talk with David about his own experience of Christianity as a child and young adult, why he started Webworm, the attention to bullies and narcissists in so much of his work, and why he focused in on a New Zealand megachurch. We talk through the unfolding of this story, the perspective he brings as an outsider to megachurch culture, and how hard it seems to be to get people within the church to take these claims seriously. You can subscribe to David's newsletter at www.webworm.co Email us: feedback@intheshift.com Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift 

Episode 71: This is the 2nd part of a conversation with Meg Cowan - sex and relationships coach. In this episode we talk about understanding our own sexuality, and how to find healthy ways of moving forward beyond the binaries of purity culture. We discuss the five circles of sexuality - intimacy, identity, sensuality, health & reproduction, and sexualisation. And we talk through some of the big issues in processing through and healing from purity culture, including attachments and soul ties, finding agency, cultivating a new sexual ethic, getting connected to our embodiment, somatics as a pathway to healing, and finding health in our relationships. You can find Meg's work at www.megcowan.com or follow her on instagram. Get in touch with In the Shift: feedback@intheshift.com Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift  

Episode 70: Meg Cowan is a sex and relationships coach who specialises in helping people process through the impact of purity culture. In this conversation we talk about how purity culture (understood as the cultural movement in Evangelical/Pentecostal Christianity that emerges in reaction to the rapid social and moral changes that took place in the 1960s and 1970s) has impacted views on and experiences of sex, embodiment and relationships in the church. We discuss the ways in which men and women have experienced this differently, and the disproportionate impact of purity culture on women in particular. We dive into the detail on gender norms, sexual desire, the nature of arousal, power imbalances between men and women, the orgasm gap, and debunk some of the myths of purity culture. This is the first part of two conversations with Meg - and in an upcoming episode we talk about how to heal and move forward from purity culture and its impact on sex and relationships. [see below for some resource recommendations from Meg] Get in touch via email: feedback@intheshift.com You can find Meg at: https://www.megcowan.com/ including info about her 'Shame Free Sex' course. Recommended Resources from Meg: Debunking the myth that men are more visual than women with regards to sex. Meta Analysis: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1904975116 BOOK MENTIONS > Pure, by Linda Kay Klein Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free https://lindakayklein.com/pure/ > The Great Sex Rescue, by Sheila Wray Gregorie.  If you identify as a Christian, this is one of the better books out there on changing the narrative about sex and christian marriage. https://baremarriage.com/great-sex-rescue/ > Come as you are, by Emily Nagowski Essential reading on how desire and arousal actually work. https://www.emilynagoski.com/home Love and Respect (on the Do NOT read list!) A lot of the teaching around these concepts of Love and Respect is spread in church, due to the bestselling (but truly terrible) book on Christian Marriage called ‘Love and Respect' by Emerson Eggerich. Read more about why it's so awful on Sheila Wray Gregoire's platforms: https://baremarriage.com/2019/01/love-and-respect-why-unconditional-respect-cant-work/

Episode 69: Katelyn Beaty is the author of the recently published book “Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms and Profits are Hurting the Church”. We talk here about the nature of celebrity vs fame, and how celebrity pastors and ministers have come to take centre stage in the Evangelical/Pentecostal church. As celebrity pastors have flourished, their churches have become mirrors for their own ego. This leads to numerous problems including a lack of accountability, the abuse of power, the pursuit of growth and brand at all costs, and has distorted the central themes of the Christian message. We finish this conversation by reflecting on how Jesus invites us to resist the allure of power and status, a challenge that is central to the Christian faith itself. Follow Katelyn's work at https://www.katelynbeaty.com/  Get in touch: michael@intheshift.com Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift

Episode 68: In this episode I'm joined by Jess Holdaway (who you may remember from ep 61) and also by Shalomy Sathiyaraj as we talk about their experience as young women within the megachurch space. We discuss the idealised characteristics of a "Christian woman", the dynamics of gender and power, the impact of purity culture, and the way in which hyper-feminine and hyper-masculine constructs lead to such unhealthy and harmful consequences. Shalomy also speaks to her experience as a young woman of colour in that space, including the overt and subtle forms of racism that are so often embedded within these institutions. It is a potent and important conversation for all those wrestling with the things that need to change in the church.

Episode 67: In this episode I speak with Frank Ritchie, a Wesleyan Methodist minister, media chaplain, and author of a recent "theological and cultural reflection", written in response to the Arise Church situation but that also speaks to the wider (mega)church conversations about the significant harm caused by unhealthy faith communities. We talk about the allure of power within the church, the lack of substance inherent in the 'church growth' paradigm, and the challenges that face the church in this current moment. We also explore the possibilities that emerge when the church loses its social and cultural power, a faith that re-discovers itself at the margins, a merging of pentecostal-liturgical traditions, and how a church community can follow a different path than the "contemporary church growth" road that has been so dominant in the past few decades.

Episode 66: In this episode Shane and I are joined by new contributor Carly Lahana, as we discuss your questions on all things deconstruction, doubt, and megachurches. Can I deconstruct without losing hope? How do I even begin to deconstruct? Can I stay in a church if I no longer agree with their theology? Are megachurches open to change as a result of recent conversations? Are megachurches capable of this change?

Episode 65: In this conversation we discuss what possibilities exist for re-imagining leadership and the role of a pastor when the "guru", or the "man with the plan" models have failed us. The "pastor as expert/authority in everything" model can treat congregations in an overly paternalistic and controlling manner, as well as fostering a level of pressure and expectation that can lead to personal dysfunction for the leader themselves. As alternatives we discuss the possibility of collaborative models, of leaders as conduits of the stories of a community, engagement in genuine dialogue, and the centrality of empathy and care.

Episode 64: In this episode we talk about what movement toward health might look like in toxic megachurch (or any church) spaces. Building on our discussions over the past few months we explore the possibility of an open-handed community, a movement away from coercion, about the conflict that often occurs between health and growth, about the importance of focusing not only the individual failings that can lead to abuse, but the systemic and structural issues that need to change in order to see real transformation take place.

Episode 63: In this episode I'm joined by Shane Meyer-Holt as we explore the problems that emerge when we're convinced that we're "the good guys" (we realise this phrase is gendered, but we felt it reflected the patriarchal nature of many of these systems). If we believe that we have the answers that everybody needs, that we're uniquely called to rescue, save and bring light to a dark world, then we often become unable to see the ways in which we might be participating in harm. We talk about why we're more likely to minimise or ignore stories of pain and abuse within our own communities, overstate our ability to meet the needs of others, less likely to collaborate, and often unable to see the good that is already taking place in spaces beyond our own institutions (and beyond our own religious frameworks). We finish with a discussion on how Christian faith can be meaningful without us having to be "the winners".

Episode 62: In this episode Shane Meyer-Holt joins me again for an analysis of megachurch “doublespeak”. Doublespeak is what we're calling the use of language that sounds good on the surface (and can in fact be used in really healthy ways) but is being used to coerce, manipulate, control and gaslight people. It's where a word like “capacity” is being used to mean “suppress your emotional and physical wellbeing”. Or where “doing it in God's strength” means to stop paying attention to the important signals your body is giving you. Or where “unity” is being used to mean uniformity and compliance. We discuss a range of examples of how this kind of language is used, because it is the pervasive subtlety of this language that often keeps people stuck within toxic cultures. We also look further at the red flags to pay attention to in religious communities, as well as some indications of what healthy community can start to look like.

Episode 61: In this episode Michael has a conversation with narrative therapist Nicole Conner and megachurch survivor Jess Holdaway. Jess speaks of her journey through the megachurch, the impact on her body and her experience of trauma, as we weave in and out of a wider discussion on religious trauma, abuse of power and burn-out. They share reflections on institutional and religious gaslighting, how to know if you're in an abusive or toxic community, the signs of trauma, and some ways forward for those processing their experiences. As always, get in touch at: feedback@intheshift.com For those looking for a little grounding after listening to this episode, you may find this meditation helpful. https://sanctuarymentalhealth.org/2020/03/17/meditation-and-self-care-during-covid-19/    Nicole Conner   Nicole was born in Hamburg, Germany, and grew up in apartheid South Africa. This created an awareness of how religion can influence and serve a political ideology, and vice versa. Something to keep in mind when discussing religious trauma. Nicole's formative years were not shaped by any strong religious ideas. As a teenager she joined a Pentecostal church in South Africa and was part of Pentecostalism for 3 decades. In Melbourne, Nicole was an Associate Minister at a large Pentecostal church that was led by her husband. She stepped down from her role and leadership in 2010. Since then, Nicole retrained in narrative practice that informs the therapy, supervision and organisational consulting she offers as director of her business, Defining Stories. https://definingstories.com.au     A growing percentage of Nicole's clients are people reclaiming their lives from religious ideologies and practices that had a negative and/or traumatic impact on their lives.     Jess Holdaway   Born in South Africa, Jess immigrated to Aotearoa with her family when she was 10 years old. Keen to find a community, Jess entered the megachurch scene as a 13 year old and spent 9 years volunteering and eventually working for the church. Since leaving church, she trained as a graphic designer and has spent most of her career working on projects that have a positive impact in Aotearoa.  She has also birthed two beautiful human beings and relocated with her husband and children to the beachside town of Mangawhai.  Always curious, always keen for deep conversations and passionate about creating a more collaborative future where people thrive, Jess is here for this conversation!

Episode 60: In this episode, Shane Meyer-Holt and I continue talking about megachurches and toxic church cultures. We focus this conversation on the "creep", which is what happens when things change incrementally over time from the 'mild' toward something really unhealthy, coercive or toxic.  But because this change happens slowly, over time, within a bubble that lacks outside perspective and with justifiable goals and aims, it can be hard to see and difficult to name or address. The 'creep' happens in relation to many aspects of church life, whether it be money, honour, altar calls, spiritual experience, purity culture, growth aspirations and so on. We also talk about how and why this happens, how it is often masked, defended and amplified, and why it's so important for all of us to be able to hear feedback from others about the impact our lives have on theirs.

Episode 59: In this episode Shane and I hit pause on delving into the megachurch playbook to check in and get a sense of where things are up to. We talk about how we've been feeling over the past few weeks as this conversation has unfolded, what feelings have come to the surface, and the different kinds of feedback we are getting. We also talk about what we're hopeful we've been able to do so far, our priority for 'survivors', what this moment could mean for the church, and some of where we think this conversation needs to head next. It's a less intense convo, as we just check in and reflect on the present moment.  You can get in touch via email: feedback@intheshift.com

Episode 58: In this 4th part of our ongoing megachurch conversation, Shane and I look at the origin story of megachurch culture. In other words, why did churches like this begin to emerge in the mid-late 20th and early 21st century? We also explore some of the key beliefs that sit at the heart of the megachurch worldview. We talk about the "who/what" (the "man with the vision"), the "why" (colonisation and empire building), the "how" (a distortion of the sacrificial giving and servant-heartedness motifs in scripture), and the "payoff" (God will bless you if you serve this vision). We also explore the origins of the prosperity gospel, and just generally tell a bunch more stories.  As always, you can get in touch via: feedback@intheshift.com

Episode 57: Shane and I are back at it, talking about megachurch culture and some of the central themes that help us understand what's going on. In this conversation we talk about the emphasis on unending growth (at all costs), and the way in which language of "another level", "breakthrough", and the "best is yet to come" can drive a culture of toxic positivity and burnout. We also talk about the church as a contextless place, a thing that happens "to" people and which can get caught up with the establishment and defence of a brand. But first, we begin with a discussion about "plausible deniability" as a tactic of manipulative and coercive leadership. This relates to the problematic but very effective behaviour and rhetoric that is couched in such a way that it can often be excused by "you're too sensitive", "we were just joking around", "you've misunderstood us" and so on. This kind of gaslighting allows leaders to deny responsibility and lay the blame for any offence on the harmed person rather than on the one carrying out the abusive behaviour. As always you can get in touch via email: feedback@intheshift.com

Episode 56: This is Part 2 of a conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt about megachurch culture and the concerning and harrowing stories emerging from victims of bullying, harassment and abuse within some of these churches.  In this conversation we talk about explicit and implicit coercion, the role of fear and the power of the charismatic ego, and we examine the "honour culture" that underpins much of the megachurch system - a culture that contributes both to the inability to speak up, as well as being responsible for some of the worst excesses and impulses of senior leaders.  If you'd like to get in touch with us, you can email: feedback@intheshift.com

Episode 55: This episode is the first in a series of conversations between myself and Shane Meyer-Holt (who you may remember from way back in episode 3) as we respond to some of the deeply concerning stories emerging from megachurches in recent weeks and months. There are common themes found in the experiences of those who have suffered under the weight of pressure, expectation, bullying, harassment and abuse of power within these systems. Shane and I have been talking about this for more than a decade, having met while in the process of trying to extricate ourselves from the problematic church structures we had been deeply immersed in since our teenage years. Since then we have both explored very different ways of engaging in faith communities and ‘leadership'. But we have also continued to reflect on those things that make megachurches (or those following that model) so potent and effective. Effective at both the glories of success and growth but also at leaving a trail of pain and trauma - while managing to keep that suffering largely silent and under the radar (until now). This is the beginning of our processing ‘out loud' on these issues, dealing with themes that have in many ways been woven through the In the Shift podcast from the very beginning. If you want to get in touch to offer comment, question, story, insight, or to seek a bit of solidarity and support, you can get in touch with Shane and I via: feedback@intheshift.com

Episode 54:  A conversation with Dr Jeff Crabtree discussing his research into abuse of power, sexual harassment and misogyny in the music industry in Australia and New Zealand. We explore what his research uncovers, talk about the complexities of power imbalance (it's not only about roles and titles), and how powerful men often abuse their power over others, especially women. Jeff also has a history in the church and so we discuss how similar power dynamics can play out within church organisations, as well as other social networks, organisations and institutions. As a discussion between two men on this topic, this is only part of the conversation that must be had but we hope its a helpful contribution.