Podcast appearances and mentions of katelyn beaty

​ ⁨@solamediaorg⁩  Trusting God in the Face of Death: My Last Conversation with Tim Keller https://youtu.be/IAkTnhdQkY8?si=y5A32_I3rciSVIkZ  ​ ⁨@HolyPostMedia⁩  669: From Common Good to Culture War—Lessons from the Q Conference with Katelyn Beaty https://youtu.be/PfeApWQJ4DE?si=0ahWXaJ86qMjy8-z  ​ ⁨@SpeakLifeMedia⁩  Wes Huff's BEST MOMENT on Andrew Schultz (and 15 other KILLER Lines) https://youtu.be/3YwtXmIYTDM?si=hc8693Glv1kH_p4B  ​ ⁨@OfficialFlagrant⁩  Bible Expert on which Christianity is TRUE, the Book of Enoch, & if Christmas is Pagan https://youtu.be/p58vknxGR4I?si=FBxR9o1PpmRjHLzK  ​ ⁨@PrestonSprinkleRaw⁩  Politics, Tariffs, and How Christians Should Respond to our Political Moment: Skye Jethani https://youtu.be/6_3roSGYVtM?si=fs146cVg4Vk0rgGI   ⁨@SpeakLifeMedia⁩  The Defining Moment of ARC 2025 https://youtu.be/B-j59rplugs?si=JRj57Z0meb1ZWyZD  Paul Vander Klay clips channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX0jIcadtoxELSwehCh5QTg Midwestuary Conference August 22-24 in Chicago https://www.midwestuary.com/ https://www.meetup.com/sacramento-estuary/ My Substack https://paulvanderklay.substack.com/ Estuary Hub Link https://www.estuaryhub.com/ If you want to schedule a one-on-one conversation check here. https://calendly.com/paulvanderklay/one2one There is a video version of this podcast on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/paulvanderklay To listen to this on ITunes https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/paul-vanderklays-podcast/id1394314333  If you need the RSS feed for your podcast player https://paulvanderklay.podbean.com/feed/  All Amazon links here are part of the Amazon Affiliate Program. Amazon pays me a small commission at no additional cost to you if you buy through one of the product links here. This is is one (free to you) way to support my videos.  https://paypal.me/paulvanderklay Blockchain backup on Lbry https://odysee.com/@paulvanderklay https://www.patreon.com/paulvanderklay Paul's Church Content at Living Stones Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh7bdktIALZ9Nq41oVCvW-A To support Paul's work by supporting his church give here. https://tithe.ly/give?c=2160640 https://www.livingstonescrc.com/give  

We have a pope and he's American! Cardinal Robert Prevost from Chicago is now Pope Leo XIV, and his connection to The Holy Post is closer than anyone imagined. Phil, Skye, and Kaitlyn discuss reactions to the new Pope and the significance of his name. Katelyn Beaty is back to discuss the evolution of the Q Conference, led by Gabe and Rebekah Lyons. Why has an event that started almost 20 years ago with a positive vision of Christian cultural engagement for the common good now shifted to embrace the culture war? And what does it reveal about larger changes within American evangelicalism? Also this week—The Trump administration is accepting refugees into the U.S. again (as long as they are white), the Quakers are on the move, caterpillar flair, and baby girl Bible names. Holy Post Plus: Ad-Free Version of this Episode: https://www.patreon.com/posts/128874502/   0:00 - Show Starts   3:25 - Theme Song   3:45  - Sponsor - Sundays Dog Food - Get 40% off your first order of Sundays. Go to https://www.SundaysForDogs.com/HOLYPOST or use code HOLYPOST at checkout.   4:50  - Sponsor - Rocket Money - Find and cancel your old subscriptions with Rocket Money at https://www.rocketmoney.com/HOLYPOST   6:40 - Bone Collector Caterpillar   12:10 - What Did Tariffs Do?   22:50 - Quakers are on the Move!   27:17 - Chicago Pope!   45:47 - Sponsor - BetterHelp - This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/HOLYPOST and get 10% off your first month   46:56 - Sponsor - Brooklyn Bedding - Brooklyn Bedding is offering up to 30% off sitewide for our listeners when you use promocode HOLYPOST! Go to https://www.brooklynbedding.com/HOLYPOST   48:00 - Interview   52:40 - What is the Q Conference?   1:02:44 - How Has the Q Conference Shifted?   1:12:18 - Ethics vs Pragmatism   1:21:23 - Responding to the Change in Evangelicalism   1:32:55 - End Credits   Links from News Segment: Bone Collector Caterpillar! https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carnivorous-bone-collector-caterpillars-wear-corpses-as-camouflage/   Quakers on the March! https://apnews.com/article/quakers-protest-march-trump-immigration-crackdown-af1ae4a3a608e59f97c96c8b7cf660a2?utm_source=flipboard&utm_content=topic/religion Other Resources: What Happened to the Q Conference: https://katelynbeaty.substack.com/p/what-happened-to-q-conference-thinq-media-speakers   Quakers March to Protest Trump's Immigration Crackdown https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/may/11/quakers-march-protest-trump-immigration-crackdown   Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/   Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus   Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost   Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop   The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.  

Katelyn Beaty is a journalist, editor, and author who's written for the New York Times, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, Religion News Service, Religion & Politics, and The Atlantic. She is cohost of the Saved by the City podcast (Religion News Service), the author of 2 books including her latest: Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church (Brazos Press, 2022), and currently serves as the editorial director of Brazos Press.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Katelyn Beaty joins Amy Fritz for a conversation about what Katelyn learned as she was writing her upcoming book, Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.    Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com   In this episode we talk about: How did Katelyn decide who to reach out to for endorsements for a book like this? Proximity as an antidote to implosion. An update on my former pastor who plagiarized most of his sermons and personal stories. Ghostwriting Plagiarism What is the role of the consumer? Featured Guest Katelyn Beaty https://katelybeaty.com   Resources mentioned Faithful Counseling https://faithfulcounseling.com/untangled Buy Katelyn's book: https://amzn.to/3AaCGaY   Tell Your Friends! If you loved this episode, leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and share it with a friend. Tag us if you share it on social media.   Follow Untangled Faith wherever you listen to podcasts Follow on Apple podcasts Subscribe on YouTube Follow on Spotify Follow on Podcast Addict   Want to share your thoughts with us or talk about partnering with the show? Email: amy@untangledfaithpodcast.com Follow me on Instagram Follow me on Threads Follow me on BlueSky

Podcaster and originator of the exvangelical hashtag Blake Chastain returns to the VCW hall to talk about his new book Exvangelical and Beyond: How American Christianity Went Radical and the Movement That's Fighting Back. Buy Blake's Book: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/747796/exvangelical-and-beyond-by-blake-chastain/ Katelyn Beaty article on what "post-Evangelical" means to her: https://katelynbeaty.substack.com/p/what-it-means-to-be-post-evangelical-anxiety Support the show on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/vcwpod Dave's second podcast- "Does the Bible Say THAT?": https://open.spotify.com/episode/0a8CCeIvjiFn1lKwKmxNt6?si=H1UswE0VT3m2tmZNFuSC4Q Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com

Today's conversation is a fascinating deep-dive into celebrity culture with Katelyn Beaty, editor and author of Celebrities For Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, & Profits are Hurting the Church. We explore the dynamics of celebrity culture and its profound effects on both the church and our personal sense of worth and mission. Here's what we cover: 1. The importance of developing an inner locus of control 2. How celebrity culture impacts the church 3. Parasocial relationships & influencers as attachment figures 4. Reevaluating what true success looks like 5. How to discern trustworthiness in people you follow Check out Katelyn's book Celebrities for Jesus here Find Katelyn's conversation with Chuck DeGroat on celebrity and narcissism here Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here. If you enjoyed this episode, you'll love: Episode 119: Drawing Strength from the Past —The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance with Dr. Jemar Tisby Thanks to our sponsors: Register for Broken to Beloved Conference Go to www.organifi.com/bestofyou today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today. Right now get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription - but only for our listeners - at Babbel.com/BESTOFYOU. Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift! Visit cozyearth.com and unlock an exclusive 35% off with code BESTOFYOU. Music by Andy Luiten Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

DNC recap and Trad-Wives. Find us on Youtube. Russell, Mike, and Clarissa are joined by David Zahl (Mockingbird Ministries) to talk about the Democratic National Convention – what happened and what opponents and “those on the outside” are saying about the Harris-Walz ticket, and what Christians who feel homeless can do about political involvement. Then Katelyn Beaty joins us to explore the trad-wife social media movement and why both men and women deserve something better.  GO DEEPER WITH THE BULLETIN: Follow the show in your podcast app of choice Find us on Youtube. Rate and Review the show in your podcast app of choice Leave a comment in Spotify with your feedback on the discussion–we may even respond! TODAY'S GUESTS:  David Zahl is the director of Mockingbird Ministries and editor-in-chief of the Mockingbird website. Born in New York City and brought up elsewhere, David graduated from Georgetown University in 2001, and then worked for several years as a youth minister in New England. In 2007 he founded Mockingbird in NYC. Today David and his wife Cate reside in Charlottesville, VA with their three boys, where David also serves on the staff of Christ Episcopal Church. He is the author of A Mess of Help: From the Crucified Soul of Rock N' Roll and co-author of Law and Gospel: A Theology for Sinners (and Saints). His most recent book, Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What To Do About It, appeared in 2019 from Fortress Press.  Katelyn Beaty is a writer, journalist, editor, and keen observer of trends in the American church. She has written for the New York Times, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, Religion News Service, Religion & Politics, and the Atlantic and has commented on faith and culture for CNN, ABC, NPR, the Associated Press, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. She also cohosts the Saved by the City podcast (Religion News Service). Beaty previously served as print managing editor at Christianity Today and is the author of A Woman's Place: A Christian Vision for Your Calling in the Office, the Home, and the World. ABOUT THE BULLETIN: The Bulletin is a weekly (and sometimes more!) current events show from Christianity Today hosted and moderated by Clarissa Moll, with senior commentary from Russell Moore (Christianity Today's Editor-in-Chief) and Mike Cosper (Director, CT Media). Each week the show explores current events and breaking news and shares a Christian perspective on issues that are shaping our world. We also offer special one-on-one conversations with writers, artists, and thought leaders whose impact on the world brings important significance to a Christian worldview, like Bono, Harrison Scott Key, Frank Bruni, and more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The time has come for the church to reexamine its relationship to celebrity. Journalist and author Katelyn Beaty shares from her book “Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.” *Originally aired June 13, 2023* Faith Radio podcasts are made possible by your support. Give now: click here

In this episode, James sits down with journalist, author, and podcaster Katelyn Beaty to discuss her series of essays on her substack "The Beaty Beat" about the "Evangelical Bro Code." They consider the various components of the bro code, possible solutions to the bro code, and the ways the bro code negatively impact both women and men.  For more from Katelyn subscribe to The Beaty Beat at https://katelynbeaty.substack.com/. You can also listed to more conversations from Katelyn on her podcast Saved by the City or purchase Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church on amazon.com. Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

In a recent 60 minutes interview, Pope Francis sparked controversy when he claimed that humans are fundamentally good. Katelyn Beaty joins Phil and Kaitlyn to discuss the Pope's comments, and why our theology needs to include both the doctrine that all humans are made in the image of God and an understanding of original sin. Also, new survey data suggests that the "Religious Nones" have plateaued and religious affiliation among Gen Z is on the rise. We discuss why this might be happening and how the "weirdness" of Christianity is what makes it appealing to so many people right now. Then Skye sits down with Sean McGever to discuss his new book, Ownership: The Evangelical Legacy of Slavery in Edwards, Wesley, and Whitefield. They explore how these three historical evangelical leaders navigated the morality of slavery and the lasting impact it is still having on the Church today. Plus, even priests are not immune to Florida Man Syndrome.   0:00 - Intro   1:36 - Show Starts   2:58 - Theme Song   3:20 - Sponsor - Hiya Health - Go to www.hiyahealth.com/HOLYPOST to receive 50% off your first order   4:24 - World Relief - Visit https://worldrelief.org/holypost/ to download your family refugee guide and learn more about the Path Community   5:39 - Italian Island Overrun by Goats   10:31 - Pope Francis Calls Humans “Fundamentally Good?”   28:20 - Ryan Burge and the Plateauing of the Nones   45:57 - Florida Priest Bites Woman   50:18 - Sponsor - Better Help - “This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/HOLYPOST and get on your way to being your best self.” www.betterhelp.com/holypost   51:17 - Interview   59:56 - Opposing Slave Trade, but Not Slavery   1:09:47 - How Edwards, Whitfield, and Wesley Influenced Attitudes About Slavery   1:20:05 - Avoiding Moral Blindspots   1:27:12 - End Credits Links Mentioned in the News Segment: Alicudi: Italian Island Offers Goats Up for Adoption https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68731003   Pope Francis Draws Accusations of Heresy for Saying Humans are Good https://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-draws-accusations-of-heresy-for-saying-humans-good.html   Ryan Burge and Nones Plateau https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/the-nones-have-hit-a-ceiling?utm_campaign=email-half-post&r=6smb2&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email   Florida Priest Admits Biting Woman in Defense of Eucharist https://www.ncronline.org/news/florida-priest-admits-biting-woman-last-resort-defense-save-eucharist   Other resources: Ownership: The Evangelical Legacy of Slavery in Edwards, Wesley, and Whitefield by Sean McGever: https://a.co/d/7SrPAZu   Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/   Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus   Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost   Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop   The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.  

Katelyn Beaty believes that some Christian leaders use their fame and influence in positive ways. But too often, she says, fame and celebrity are cultivated for their own sake, or for the sake of profits and the building of personal empires. We see this phenomenon most conspicuously with the prosperity Gospel preachers. But, increasingly, these practices of the Prosperity Gospel have crept into mainstream evangelical ministries. That's why Katelyn Beaty believes we should explore the evangelical church's relationship to celebrity. She explores how fame has reshaped the American church, explains why and how celebrity is woven into the fabric of the evangelical movement, and identifies how fame has misshapen the church. Katelyn Beaty is an editor at Baker Books, and has written for The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic. She previously served as print managing editor at Christianity Today.  Her new book is Celebrities For Jesus:  How Personas, Platforms, and Profits are Hurting The Church.

On today's program, an investigation into the death of a South Carolina pastor's wife, 30-year-old Mica Miller, has captured the attention of people across the nation, raising questions about mental health and abuse. We'll look at the latest findings. A Pennsylvania pastor faces a gunman in the middle of his Sunday sermon. We'll have details. A new Southern Baptist report details where member churches stand with attendance, baptisms, and sexual abuse reforms. We'll take a look. But first, a lawsuit against Christian author and radio host Eric Metaxas is moving forward despite concerns about free speech.  I wanted to remind everyone that it's a new month, May, and we have a new book we'd like to share with our donors. Katelyn Beaty's book “Celebrities For Jesus” is a fantastic book about the trend in evangelicalism toward the idolization of celebrity pastors and leaders. It has a lot of insight about many of the issues we cover regularly here at MinistryWatch, and I think if you like MinistryWatch, you are going to find this book valuable. We'll send it to you absolutely free, as our thank you, for a gift of any size to MinistryWatch this month. Just go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page. Until next time, may God bless you.

For centuries, Christianity has been seen as a positive force in the world – even by those who are not Christians. But my guest today, Aaron Renn, argues that this perception has changed. In a widely read and discussed article for “First Things” magazine, first published a decade ago, Renn said that the world up until 1964 was a “positive world” for Christianity. From 1964 to 2014, we lived in what he calls the “Neutral World.” Since 2014, we live in a “Negative World” for Christianity. Renn expands on these ideas in his latest book, Life in the Negative World: Confronting Challenges in an Anti-Christian Culture. Aaron Renn is a senior fellow at American Reformer, a former senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, and a former partner at Accenture, the global consulting firm. His latest book is Life in the Negative World: Confronting Challenges in an Anti-Christian Culture. A quick note that it's a new month – May – and we have a new book we'd like to share with you. Katelyn Beaty's Celebrities for Jesus is a book that is right in the center of the bullseye for MinistryWatch readers. It discusses how and why the evangelical church has turned to celebrities, celebrity pastors and ministry leaders, and how that trend is hurting the church. We will send you that book as our thank you for a gift of any size during the month of May. To give to MinistryWatch, just go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database, technical, editorial, and other support from Casey Sudduth, Stephen duBarry, Christina Darnell, and Kim Roberts. I hope you'll join me and Natasha Cowden for our roundup of the stories we've been working on this week here at MinistryWatch. Until then, may God bless you.

On today's program, the top legislative body of the United Methodist Church gathered in Charlotte, N.C., this week for its long-awaited General Conference. There, delegates cast decisive votes on issues of gender and sexuality.  We'll have details. And, an Ohio church is under fire AGAIN for opening its doors to shelter the homeless. We'll take a look. Also, Wayne Grudem, bestselling author of ‘Systematic Theology,' is stepping away from academia after teaching for almost 50 years. That story later in the program. But first, evangelical activists gathered followers together at Columbia University last week to show support for Israel.  I wanted to remind everyone that it's a new month, May, and we have a new book we'd like to share with our donors. Katelyn Beaty's book “Celebrities For Jesus” is a fantastic book about the trend in evangelicalism toward the idolization of celebrity pastors and leaders. It has a lot of insight about many of the issues we cover regularly here at MinistryWatch, and I think if you like MinistryWatch, you are going to find this book valuable. We'll send it to you absolutely free, as our thank you, for a gift of any size to MinistryWatch this month. Just go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh.  We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Fiona André, Yonat Shimron, Daniel Ritchie, Kim Roberts, Bethany Starin, Tony Mator, Jessica Eturralde, Brittany Smith, and Christina Darnell. Until next time, may God bless you.

Muito bem, muito bem, muito bem, está no ar mais um BTCast MC, uma parceria entre o Bibotalk e a editora Mundo Cristão. Neste episódio do BTCast MC, Cacau Marques conversa com Alex Stahlhoefer e Luiz Henrique Santos sobre o livro de Katelyn Beaty, Fama, Dinheiro e Influência. De que maneira as lideranças de uma […] O conteúdo de Igreja e a cultura de celebridade – BTCast MC 036 é uma produção do Bibotalk - Teologia é nosso esporte!.

Muito bem, muito bem, muito bem, está no ar mais um BTCast MC, uma parceria entre o Bibotalk e a editora Mundo Cristão. Neste episódio do BTCast MC, Cacau Marques conversa com Alex Stahlhoefer e Luiz Henrique Santos sobre o livro de Katelyn Beaty, Fama, Dinheiro e Influência. De que maneira as lideranças de uma […] O conteúdo de Igreja e a cultura de celebridade – BTCast MC 036 é uma produção do Bibotalk - Teologia é nosso esporte!.

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church. Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it's a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity. There's also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you're the one following a celebrity, or if you're the one desiring to be followed. Links: Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have an unhealthy relationship with bigness in the church. Especially in the American church. And it's killing us. The rate of church closures, departing members, and pastoral burnout is growing exponentially. This is the first episode of a series of podcasts based on Karl Vaters' new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next. Karl talks about how we became so obsessed with bigness in the church, why it's dangerous, and what we can do to change course. Look for upcoming De-sizing the Church episodes in which Karl interviews Katelyn Beaty, Scot McKnight, Winn Collier, and more. De-Sizing the Church is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you've read the book and you'd like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we re-air Ken's conversation with Tim Whitaker, creator of The New Evangelicals. Ken begins with some commentary on the new Rob Reiner documentary, God and Country.Ken welcomes fellow sojourner and podcaster, Tim Whitaker. Tim is "Creator and Facilitator" of The New Evangelicals, a highly popular and widely followed non-profit that sponsors podcasts and commentary that appear regularly on YouTube, Instagram, and TikToc. His productions include everything from short spots to full-length interviews, In his conversation with Ken, Tim tells his story - from home-schooled kid to drummer in a worship band to sold-out Jesus-follower to high-energy podcast host. As his view of the gospel expanded, he began to resist evangelical Trumpism and then consider the validity of Pro-Choice, then develop LGBTQ sensibilities. As a consequence, Tim's lead pastor ceremoniously dismissed him from his cherished role as lead drummer in the worship band. That moment triggered a period he calls "deconstruction." Tim brings a truthful and direct challenge to an evangelicalism that has become a voting block for right-wing political causes, election denial, conspiracy theories, Christian Nationalism, the Trump cult, and a distortion of what Tim believes to be biblical Christianity. Ken and Tim have interviewed many of the same influencers, authors, and activists including  Brad Onishi, Lisa Sharon Harper, Kristen Kobes Du Mez, Pete Enns, David Gushee, Jemar Tisby, Diana Butler Bass, and Ben Cremer. Tim has also welcomed other notables to his podcast such as Anthea Butler, Matthew Taylor, Katherine Stewart, Tripp Fuller, Katelyn Beaty, Sam Perry, Andrew Seidel, Dante Stewart, and Dr. Russell Moore. Tim calls out people like Charlie Kirk, Sean Feucht,  Candace Owens,  and John MacArthur among others as perpetrators of false narratives that have misled many. It's a lively conversation you won't want to miss.SHOW NOTES - Including links to Tim and  THE NEW EVANGELICALSOriginal Air Date: April 2023Support the show

Evangelical voters have long supported Republican candidates, but who identifies as an evangelical Christian has changed over the years. A recent article written in The New York Times by Ruth Graham and Charles Homans argues that Trump is attracting a different kind of evangelical - one who loves their country and believes in God, but doesn't actually go to church. Katelyn Beaty joins Phil and Kaitlyn to discuss the trend and why they aren't as concerned this election cycle as previous ones. Then, Kaitlyn sits down with Michael Wear to discuss his new book, The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life. He explains how he uses the teachings of Dallas Willard to talk about how Christians should engage in politics and what it would look like to place our politics under our spiritual formation. Also this week, an Alabama man gets stuck in a vase.   Holy Post Plus Getting Schooled - Bible Reading Plans https://www.patreon.com/posts/96689795   0:00 - Intro   1:37 - Show Starts   3:14 - Theme Song   3:39 - Sponsor - AG1 - Get your FREE 1 year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 free travel packs with your first purchase, go to https://www.athleticgreens.com/HOLYPOST   4:54 - Man Stuck in Urn   11:29 - New Year's at Applebee's   13:44 - Prince William Told to Abdicate   18:54 - Trump Attracting Unchurched Evangelicals   52:04 - Sponsor - World Relief - Visit https://worldrelief.org/holypost/ to download your family refugee guide and learn more about the Path Community   53:16- Sponsor - Songfinch - Go to https://www.songfinch.com/HOLYPOST and start your song – after you purchase, you'll be prompted to add Spotify Streaming for your original song for FREE! That's a $50 value!   54:58 - Interview with Michael Wear   1:33:41 - End Credits Links Mentioned in the News Segment:    Alabama Man Stuck in Decorative Urn Breaks His Silence: https://www.thedailybeast.com/alabama-man-connor-padgett-stuck-in-decorative-urn-breaks-his-silence   Prince William Told to Back Christianity or Abdicate: https://www.newsweek.com/prince-william-church-england-abdicate-1861430   Trump Is Connecting With a Different Type of Evangelical Voter: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/08/us/politics/donald-trump-evangelicals-iowa.html Other Resources:   The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life. https://amzn.to/4b9ka3f   Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/   Holy Post Plus: https://www.holypost.com/plus   Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost    Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.  

Today you'll hear my full conversation with the inimitable Katelyn Beaty from Season 8, specifically, December 2022. Katelyn Beaty is a Midwest native living in New York City, and editorial director for Brazos Press. But the most important thing you should know about her is that she loves words and believes they can change the world. Katelyn served as Christianity Today magazine's youngest and first female managing editor. She has written for The New Yorker, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, and The New York Times on light topics such as politics, gender, and theology and has commented on faith and culture for CNN, ABC, NPR, Associated Press, Religion News Service, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.Katelyn enjoys exploring NYC, karaoke (post-pandemic, of course), FaceTimeing with her nephew, international travel, and starting the day with the NYT Spelling Bee. In this episode, you'll hear Katelyn and I discuss Why we are so prone to put people on pedestalsHow we can slowly reclaim a vision of ordinary faithfulnessThe problem with singles' events at most churches The long-term impact of churches who treat their singles as an afterthought You can follow Katelyn on Intagram @katelyn_beaty and on Twitter @KatelynBeaty. Read more of her work at katelynbeaty.com. Celebrities for Jesus is available wherever you buy books. Link to "In the Bleak Midwinter" by Richard AllainThe Tiny Brand experience is a done-for-you collaboration, a silver platter of fonts, colors, and design elements tailored for you and your business delivered within a quick turnaround of just 48 hours. If beautiful branding done by someone who just *gets* you is your vibe, you need to work with Karla at The Inspired Foundry / get a Tiny Brand. Use INSPIREDMARYB to get $50 off your Tiny Brand! Head to www.yourtinybrand.com for all the details. It's no secret that many singles feel like outsiders in the church. That's why we've created a Patreon community. For a small monthly fee, you can get access to bonus content, plus a community where your voice and presence are valued. Tiers start at just $5/month. Sign up at patreon.com/unsuitable. I can't wait to see you there! Buzzsprout - Let's launch your podcast! Get started for FREE!Tiny Brand The Tiny Brand Experience is a done-for-you brand collaboration designed just for your business.Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Support the show

Why do so many women find Christian organizations difficult places to work? Katelyn Beaty says the “bro code” within evangelicalism is to blame. She's back to define the different parts of bro code and why it needs to change. Then, immigration is once again a hot political debate, and it ranked as the top issue for many white evangelicals in recent elections. Last month, a group of Holy Posters visited the Southern border to see what's really happening, meet with church leaders on both sides, as well as border agents. Skye and Kaitlyn Schiess are joined by Old Testament scholar Carman Imes and World Relief's Matthew Soerens to debrief their trip. Also this week—dead pet psychics and air passengers horsing around.   0:00 - Intro   1:28 - Show starts   3:09 - Theme Song   3:25 - Sponsor - Sundays Dog Food Get 35% off your first order of Sundays. Go to www.SundaysForDogs.com/HOLYPOST or use code HOLYPOST at checkout.    4:30 - Show resumes   6:56 - Animal News   11:20 - Flight News   15:10 - Pet Psychics   27:46 - Evangelical Bro Code   49:12 - Sponsor - Aura Frames From now through Black Friday and Cyber Monday visit www.AuraFrames.com and get 40 dollars off their best-selling Carver Mat frame with the code HOLYPOST   50:20 - Sponsor - World Relief Visit https://worldrelief.org/holypost/ to download your family refugee guide and learn more about the Path Community   51:30 - Holy Post Border Trip Debrief   1:29:08 - End Credits Links mentioned in news segment:   Plane turns back to JFK after horse escapes on board https://www.cnn.com/travel/horse-escapes-on-boeing-747/index.html#:~:text=A%20Boeing%20747%20en%20route,people%20familiar%20with%20the%20episode.   Gospel singer almost booted off Delta flight for singing new single https://nypost.com/2023/11/13/news/gospel-singer-almost-booted-off-delta-flight-for-singing-new-single/   She Charges $550 for 90 Minutes and Has a Wait List of 7,600 People https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/pet-psychics-for-animals-dogs-paranormal-charge-156ec320   No Woman Can Crack the Evangelical Bro Code https://katelynbeaty.substack.com/p/no-woman-can-crack-the-evangelical Other resources:   Skye's explainer video on immigration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfp5ngxqBI&t=11s   The Border is a Mess. What Can Christians Do To Help? https://www.holypost.com/post/the-border-is-a-mess-what-can-christians-do   The Torah is Pro-Immigrant. Nehemiah Was Not https://www.holypost.com/post/the-torah-is-pro-immigrant-nehemiah-was-not Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/   Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus   Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost   Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.  

Rula Khoury, who is Palestinian-American-Christian, stops by the VCW hall to speak boldly about what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank with the current war. She talks about her family's history and we also talk about Christian Zionism (often fueled by forms of dispensational theology in America) which make it far more difficult for people to find pathways to peace for Palestinians and Israelis. Books Rula Recommended: *The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917-2017 by Rashid Khalidi *The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe *The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine by Miko Peled Other Podcasts regarding Palestine/Israel: *The New Evangelicals Podcast (Tim Whitaker) interviews Dr. Kevin Carnahan on the history of the conflict: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/176-understanding-israel-and-palestine-pt-1-blame/id1557794865?i=1000630800157 *The New Evangelicals Podcast (Tim Whitaker) interviews Palestinian-American Daniel Bannoura. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/178-understanding-israel-and-palestine-pt-3/id1557794865?i=1000631185579 *Saved by the City Podcast (Roxanne Stone and Katelyn Beaty) interview Greg Khalil. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/on-israel-gaza-and-the-hope-for-peace-greg-khalil/id1557930520?i=1000632651766 *The Ezra Klein Show Podcast on Israel declaring war in Gaza. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/israel-is-giving-hamas-what-it-wants/id1548604447?i=1000631712100 *The Ezra Klein Show Podcast interviewing a pollster who surveyed Gazans prior to the October 7, 2023 Hamas attack. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/she-polled-gazans-on-oct-6-heres-what-she-found/id1548604447?i=1000633572018 Support the show on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/vcwpod Dave's second podcast- "Does the Bible Say THAT?": https://open.spotify.com/episode/0a8CCeIvjiFn1lKwKmxNt6?si=H1UswE0VT3m2tmZNFuSC4Q Twitter: Twitter: @vcwpod Zach- @muzach Dave- @Davejlester Check out Zach's music by going to:  https://muzach.bandcamp.com Podcast music by Zach Malm Logo by Zach Malm

Guest Bios Show Transcript How can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? In this podcast, theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer, join me to discuss their latest book, Pivot, a sequel to their earlier best-selling book, A Church Called Tov. While their first book explained the characteristics of a “tov,” or good, culture, Pivot tackles the next challenge—transforming ingrained toxic cultures into tov ones. As Scot and Laura discuss, transformation can be a grueling and painful process. And their research shows transformation takes an average of seven years! But it is possible. And cultures led by narcissist leaders that create consumers can transform into ones led by servant-leaders that make disciples.  In their characteristic relatable and warm style, Scot and Laura explain the practical steps required to do that. Specifically, they discuss the priorities, practices, and powers necessary to pivot, or transform, toxic cultures. And they give real-life examples of churches that have undergone this transformation and lived to tell about it! Scot and Laura draw from their own experiences in churches, conversations with leaders seeing transformation happen, and a deep well of research to provide actionable insights for churches and ministries. Guests Scot McKnight Scot McKnight is a professor of New Testament and has been teaching for more than four decades. His specialty is in the fields of Gospels and Jesus studies, but his passions are in the intersection of New Testament in its context as it speaks to the church today. Along with his daughter, Laura Barringer, they have published A Church Called Tov and a follow-up book, Pivot, which discusses what churches can do to help transform themselves from toxic cultures into tov (goodness) cultures. Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles.  Show Transcript SPEAKERS SCOT McKNIGHT, LAURA BARRINGER, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS  00:00 So how can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And joining me today are theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer. They're the authors of the bestselling book A Church Called TOV. TOV is the Hebrew word for good or goodness. And the book explained how to create a church culture that's truly good–one that resists abuse promotes healing and spiritual growth. But what if your church or Christian workplace already has an ingrained toxic culture? Well, that's what Scot and Laura's new book PIVOT is all about. It explains the priorities, practices and powers that can help you pivot or transform your toxic culture into a TOV culture. But it's not easy and it's not for the faint of heart, but it is God honoring and it is possible. So I'm very excited to delve into this topic was gotten Laura But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to JudsonU.edu. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.com.  Well again, joining me is New Testament scholar Scot McKnight, who has authored more than 50 books. He's currently professor of New Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lisle, Illinois. And he's an ordained Anglican and maintains a blog with Christianity today called Jesus Creed. So Scott, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you join me. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:25 Thanks, Julie. Good to be with you again. JULIE ROYS  02:27 Yeah, second time. So I always like when I have a repeat guest. It means it must have gone okay the first time. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:33 I used to be with you sometimes on the radio, in the old days. JULIE ROYS  02:37 On Moody. Yeah. Yes, old days. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is going to be fun. I love the book. And Laura, thank you also for joining me again, Scot's daughter Laura Barringer, who's co authored Scott's last two books, A Church Called TOV and PIVOT. Laura also is a children's ministry curriculum writer for Grow Kids. And her day job is teaching kindergarteners in suburban Chicago and Laura, I know you've had a full day teaching them today. So thank you so much for for joining us and for being willing to come on. LAURA BARRINGER  03:09 Yeah, thank you for having me again. It's nice to be with you guys. JULIE ROYS  03:13 And you were just with us at RESTORE, and did a phenomenal job. And we've been rolling out the videos on that and yours will be rolling out in the next few weeks. But that was just delightful to have you. So thank you for joining us at that. LAURA BARRINGER  03:27 I had a great time. It was such an honor to speak at the event and meet so many of the people that I've interacted with online over the last few times. I was just blown away by how special. I was anticipating it. But I was blown away by how special that was to see actual faces. And I came away just realizing this is so much more. It's not just a conference. It's so much more than that. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:51 That's what we experienced the year before. LAURA BARRINGER  03:53 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:54 Same thing like these are the people. LAURA BARRINGER  03:56 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:56 These are the people. Yeah, that's good. JULIE ROYS  03:58 Yeah, I think you called it a restorative community. LAURA BARRINGER  03:58 That's what it is. JULIE ROYS  04:00 I love that. I was like, yes, that's exactly what RESTORE is. And Scot, you joined us last year for the RESTORE conference. And your video is up on our YouTube site as well. And I believe it was on How To Be TOV, Not Toxic. So a lot of that stuff that we're talking about today, although today, we're talking more about your second book, which is kind of making that pivot when you realize you already are toxic, right? And you've got this culture ingrained that's not so good. And Laura, I loved in the book where you said, at one point you're like, I teach kindergarteners and now I'm doing all these interviews on how to make a church culture TOV and how to make it good and you're like, how did I get here? And then a pastor said to you, “you know what you nurture little people all day you children all day long, and that skill, even though it's often not valued by pastors is probably more appropriate than a lot of them realize.” And I just I love that. And I'm sure you're finding that as you're speaking to people. LAURA BARRINGER  05:05 Yeah, that was very meaningful interview that was Jared McKenna. He has a podcast that he had invited me on. And for whatever reason, my dad wasn't there. I don't know, usually, they want my dad, and then I tag along. And so initially, those interviews could feel really uncomfortable, because every now and then I would stop and think, do these people, you know, they'd asked me about, like, the church abuse crisis. And I'd think, “do these people not realize that I was making kindergarten ready for school confetti earlier today?” How have I landed in this spot? But that was a very encouraging conversation for me when Jared said, you know, you have some of the qualities as a teacher that we want to see in our pastors. And I stopped, I thought, I suppose that's what we do all day long as teachers we nurture and encourage and shepherd. So yeah, that meant a lot to me, as you read in the book, JULIE ROYS  06:05 And Scott, you teach at a seminary, but a lot of seminaries aren't teaching about this kind of stuff. Like you're you learn a lot of Bible knowledge. But as far as how to create cultures and how to nurture goodness within churches? I mean, are we teaching this in enough seminaries? Or are we maybe a little heavy on the head knowledge and not enough on the cultivating of the heart? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:30 The answer to that is no. There are really no seminaries that are focused on spiritual formation or character development, LAURA BARRINGER  06:41 Really? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:42 None. The curriculum for all the courses is Bible theology, church history, and skill development. And skill development is what is measured, as a general rule for what constitutes a good pastor. In other words, they can preach they can lead, you know, we talked about leadership, I don't, but the evangelical world does. And we read books and from the business world, and we read, what is it, Jack Welch? We read all these people. And these are the people that are formational, for people's perception of what is success, and what constitutes a pastor. One of the curricular changes that took place in seminaries about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, was to bring spiritual formation into every class, rather than located in one class, a class on spiritual formation. And so we do it that way. But Julie, I think character formation for church leaders, is caught more than taught, it's embodied more than it's instructed. And it requires time with someone who has that kind of character. So if you can be an assistant, in a church with Mr. Rogers, for five years, you'll never be the same. If you are in a church with, we won't name any names don't need to in this context, for five years, you will be harmed in character formation. JULIE ROYS  08:12 And that's what's so sad is that so much of my reporting is on churches where that's happening, where you have pastors who can preach the Bible, and can teach it–sometimes with really good doctrine–and yet, the life does not match the teaching. And so that is so much of the problem. So I'm so glad that you that both of you have done these two books, which go hand in hand, and I loved your first book, A Church Called TOV, and I love this book PIVOT, because it's, it really is sort of the sequel, and I think helps an awful lot. And we've been using this phrase church culture. Scott, let me just start there. What is a church culture? Because this is something we often don't think about yet we often swim in it, and we're shaped by it. But what is it exactly? And how is it formed? SCOT McKNIGHT  09:00 A culture is a living agent that conforms people, whether they understand it, or not, unconsciously, unintentionally, to become people who fit in that culture. Now, that's the impact understanding, but culture is a living agent. That is the result of people decisions, policies, over time, that result in a given set of assumptions that are mostly invisible, that shape what's going on in a given institution, or church, whatever, without even being aware of it. That's the culture. JULIE ROYS  09:44 And so often what we see I know when I report on a church or a leader, and in several circumstances that's led to the leader being removed, and then they bring in a new leader, and you think, oh, everything's different now. SCOT McKNIGHT  09:58 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  09:59 But it's really not. Right? Because  Nothing. You've got a culture that's ingrained, you have people that have been formed by this culture. And they don't know any different than how to run a toxic church, because that's how they've been discipled. That's the culture that they're familiar with. So you use this metaphor in your book of a peach tree, to help us understand culture. So Laura, let me throw that to you. What is this peach tree metaphor? And how does it apply to helping us understand the church? SCOT McKNIGHT  10:01 Nothing, LAURA BARRINGER  10:30 So the peach tree metaphor, it's, it is a cute, if you will metaphor, but it actually is research based and we based it on the research of Edgar Schein, he's one of the, to my knowledge, most important researchers on organizational culture. And also to our knowledge, we were not able to find research or books on church culture or Christian organization culture. So we took what we learned from him and adapted it and made our model a peach tree, mostly because I have a peach tree in my backyard. Mark, and I planted it when we moved in our home about 10 years ago. And it ended up being perfect for this metaphor, because it's very unhealthy. We've never even eaten one peach off the tree. So like, Oh, that's perfect, because it was a very small because I called her tree. But at any rate, so we talked about peaches as the visible elements of your culture. And it's what people see and experience when they walk in the door. So they might feel like, Oh, those graders were friendly, or who's singing on stage or, when the Anglican tradition, they pass the peace, that's part of the culture. And when they leave, they can probably explain what they felt, what they saw. So what we have learned, and again, this is research based, is that what is underneath the soil is what feeds the living elements of the tree. And most of that is like what my dad was saying that you can't see it, you don't even know it's there. And like our peach tree in our backyard, the fact that it's not growing peaches is not the problem. The problem is that is probably the soil or that we're not caring for the tree, we're supposed to add nutrients every year–we never do. So that's how we develop the model is that the soil and what's underneath the soil, what goes into the roots is what feeds the culture of your organization. And so you really need to look at, we learned, is “what's feeding the soil?” If the tree is being fed by the fruits of the Spirit are by spiritual formation practices, the culture is likely healthy and thriving. If it's being fed by ambition, or power abuse, then the culture is going to be toxic. And so you might get some healthy, like looking peaches, but underneath that's very sick. SCOT McKNIGHT  13:04 This is a good question. And Laura's got a good answer there. But I was in a conversation the other day was a seminary professor who talked about the last three presidents of that institution. And the seminary professor said they were all narcissists. And I said, I think we have to look at why narcissists rose to the top in that organization. There's a culture that gives rise to “that's the kind of person that seems to fit the job description.” Why is that the case? JULIE ROYS  13:39 And that is an important point to make. Because I think so often we do point at the narcissist, and oh, this horrible person that was there and did such horrible things. And we don't look at what's our responsibility for putting that person in and for following that person for not noticing the characteristics that we should have. And you've named some of the toxins that go into these soils of these toxic churches. You give, and I love this because you don't hear the stories very often. And I'd love to report on a lot more of them. I wish there were a lot to report on. But it's of a church that discovers that it's toxic, and goes through this transformation process. And one of them that you talked about is is Oak Hills church in Folsom, California. Explain why Oak Hills felt like it had to transform and then how it began to do so. LAURA BARRINGER  14:33 Yeah, this is one of my favorite parts of our work on PIVOT, I think. I had never heard of Oak Hills. Just one day a book arrived on my doorstep, sent by Scot McKnight. And he said you need to read about this, and then write about it as a case study for PIVOT. It's such a beautiful story, but essentially, the pastors Mike Lueken and Ken Carlson founded a church in California called Oak Hills. And they had come out here to Willow Creek to learn as much as they could about doing church. And they don't criticize Willow at all. They said, in fact, everything that we tried worked. Their attendance exploded, they became a mega church. But they started to feel I would describe it just like an unease like in their soul. And they felt like the exact quote is so striking. It says, “the way that we were doing church was actually working against the invitation of Christ to experience his transformation.” And they had been reading Eugene Peterson, and Dallas Willard and more. And they felt like our attractional model is working against transformation. And so they took the whole church through a very tumultuous process. Their attendance declined, like it was cut in half or more. But they ended up transforming their church from an attractional model to a spiritual formation model. They said the people in the church had become consumers. So like, they would sit there and want a really good show. And then the next week, they would come back and they wanted an even better show. And they said, it felt like we were feeding a monster, and they were drained. They were worn out. And they just felt that stirring in the spirit that they had to transform it. JULIE ROYS  16:28 Yeah, somebody asked me once, whether I thought a mega church could ever be healthy. And my answer was, perhaps, but it just seems to me that all the pressures are in the wrong direction. And it's awful hard to withstand the pressures that keep pushing you in that direction. And I'm curious, Scot, have you ever seen a mega church that, really, you're seeing a real emphasis on spiritual formation? And it seems really healthy? SCOT McKNIGHT  16:59 This is a really interesting question because it feeds into what we researched in this book. And Edgar Schein, I've seen a lot of them, because I've only been there for a day or two. Okay, so this is what they are masters of, is the weekend service is extremely impressive and they have talented, charismatic, winsome, affable people that welcome you at the airport, take you to nice hotels, feed you nice meals, provide a green room in the back with all the amenities that you need, and a wonderful platform where they stand up and even clap for you. Great music. So here's the point, I do believe there are mega churches that are healthy. But the only way to know this is to have someone investigate them, not for the purpose of exposing anything, but for the sole purpose of finding out what's really going on. And it would take three to six months of someone who's skilled at knowing how to find a culture. This is what Edgar Schein does, he'll go to places like let's just say IBM, and work there for nine months. And it takes that long to find what is actually in the soil feeding the place. So there's no megachurch pastor, or leaders, or any church is going to tell you that what's driving them is ambition, and competition. They want to win the battle of the best church in the neighborhood or in the city or in the state or in the United States. They will never say that, but that is one of the drivers. And it takes a long time to figure out that that's what's actually at work when fundamental decisions are made in the church. So I would say I've never had the opportunity to actually examine a mega church at that level. I do know, a mega church model that the theory is that it's small groups that meet on Sunday. That's the kind of mega church model has the capacity to be working at character formation. But I can't say that I looked at the people I've met there have been very impressive, but that's what a famous pastor in Canada that was his model as well. JULIE ROYS  19:26 Bruxy Cavey. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:27 Yeah, that's a lot of problems. JULIE ROYS  19:29 Yeah. And he comes from Brethren In Christ Anabaptist background which is my background. I grew up in that so at that was very sad for me to see that happen. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:39 Well, I endorsed a lot of his books so not that long before this story. Yeah, I've known Bruxy a long time. Sad story. JULIE ROYS  19:47 Yeah, it is and Brethren in Christ churches from my at least from my growing up, I haven't been in one for many years because we don't really have them in the Midwest, but I felt like they were phenomenal at character formation, spiritual formation. You talk about three pivotal priorities–and one you've touched on–but I want to do a little bit of a deep dive because we're talking about emphasis on character, not ability. I mean, that seems like one of those like, Duh, this is basic, right? I mean, we should be all about character. But why is it that this is such a misplaced priority? Like we really are not looking at character in our churches, and we find, pastor after pastor after pastor falling into scandal and into disrepute, because of character flaws? Why is this? SCOT McKNIGHT  20:39 I think, let's say the pastor on the platform is a different beast altogether than ordinary people in the church. But those aren't the same things. The character issues, you're expecting people to hire a pastor to be able to perform on that platform every Sunday, and put butts in the seats and bills in the plate, and baptisms in the pool. And buildings on the campus. That's what they hire him for. But I would say there's a couple things. Number one is our church is, let's say, measurement devices, or success measurements are not shaped by that at all. A second thing is, it's extremely difficult to measure spiritual growth in a true character formation. And I think I said two, but I got a third one. And it takes a lot of pastors. A lot. You can't have one pastor working with the transformation of 50 people. They can't do that. They don't have that kind of time. That's why the small group model has the capacity. If you don't have pinheads running the small group. If you have people who are Mr. Rogers, like who get to work with people in that small group. We just have a lot of things distorted in the wrong direction. And they start in the wrong location. JULIE ROYS  22:06 And this is the challenge, isn't it? Like you said in the book, if you're going to transform from a toxic culture to a TOV one, what you've seen is that it takes minimum seven years, probably three years before you see this change start to happen. And often the church will shrink. In Oak Hills, they lost what 1000 people? LAURA BARRINGER  22:28 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  22:28 Yeah. And I said this at the beginning of the RESTORE conference, to the pastors who were there, because we talked about, you know, a lot of church hurt at these conferences. And I did hear from one pastor who came and this was at the previous year, and he said, “Yeah, it was really, really powerful conference, but I kind of got the feeling as a pastor that maybe we're the bad guys.” And so I wanted to make sure this one to say, “No, we love you. We're so glad you're here. And the fact that you as a pastor, invested in coming to hear from wounded souls, about the way that they've been hurting the Church says something about you and your character and why you're here. And you're exactly the kind of pastors that we need in our churches.” Yet. I think if I were doing a conference on how you can grow your church overnight, I wouldn't have enough seats, if I had a proven method of making your church double overnight. But what you're talking about here is, here's a path to making your church maybe smaller, maybe less successful in the world's eyes, and trying to get people to buy into this model. But in the end, there's greater fulfillment isn't there in knowing that you're actually producing people who are furthering the kingdom of God? Because you're actually modeling Christ to people. It's a powerful thing. But how do you get people to buy into that? SCOT McKNIGHT  23:48 Well, when you were talking, I'm sitting here thinking of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with his renegade subversive hideout seminaries in northern Germany and Prussia, and the impact of Dallas Willard on someone like James Smith, where it was over time, with one person working with another person. And that's a different calling. And it's not like that's what we hire people in churches to do. You know, the last Barna book I read by David Kinnaman, was on pastors. And I think the number was 12% of pastors enjoy discipleship. LAURA BARRINGER  24:34 That low? SCOT McKNIGHT  24:35 Yeah, it may be lower than that, but I think it was in the book, Pastor Paul. But that is not what they see themselves doing. They see themselves preaching and leading and administrating and organizing. And some of them writing books, and traveling around speaking at conferences. That's what they see themselves doing. But if you work in Navigators or you work in Campus Crusade or InterVarsity on a campus and colleges, which are some of the most effective TOV institutions in the world. They are all about working with young college students and helping them deal with the fact that they got drunk last night, and we got to find out what's going on. And they disciple people. And it takes a lot of time. And in four years, those students, a lot of them want to come back and do the same to other college students. That's the multiplication principle of Navigators. And Navigators is all about one on one, JULIE ROYS  25:37 And what virtues should we be looking for? And should we be cultivating? LAURA BARRINGER  25:42 Theologian. SCOT McKNIGHT  25:43 (laughter) There's a couple of ways to look at this. And I think we need to take the major virtue passages in the Bible. So look at the 10 commandments. Alright, look at the book of Psalms, pick a couple of prophets and say, What are they trying to inculcate in people? And how they should live? Then look at the Sermon on the Mount. Look at Paul's list of the fruit of the Spirit. Look at what Paul says about love in First Corinthians 13. Look at First John's teachings. Avoid Jude because he's too hot, a little angry all the time. So and just realize that there are different ways to package this over time to frame what virtues we want to talk about. Now, there's ways of summarizing, let's say, we want to be followers of Jesus. That's a summary statement. Or we want to be characterized by love. Or if you're in the Puritan movement, you want to be characterized by godliness. And that means you read the Puritans, and you subscribe to Banner of Truth  Trust, and all this, and these become your heroes. Jonathan Edwards is the guy. But all these terms are summary statements that need to be unfolded. And so the virtues, the character that forms these virtues, so that they become sort of instincts can be framed in different ways. But all those passages can help us shape the kinds of virtues we're looking for. JULIE ROYS  27:23 So we have character is one of our priorities. Another one is TOV power. And I have to say, when you hear that word power, and you've experienced abuse of power, just that word power, can be scary. So how can we tell if power is being harnessed and used in a good way, as opposed to a toxic way? LAURA BARRINGER  27:49 Yeah, this is a big one for us. After A Church Called TOV was published, we received letter after letter after letter, we wrote a lot about sexual abuse, we heard mostly from victims of power abuse, we would get these letters every week, my dad would get some I would get some. And it was story after story of people who had been wounded, mostly by pastors who had misused their power. And the people had tried to stand up for themselves or those who found the courage to maybe try to talk to elders. It was like they didn't get very far because people didn't believe them, or it was done behind closed doors. So people say, Well, I haven't seen him do that. That's not how he is. That's not my experience. And that was so painful, because it discounts the reality of what another person endured. So this was a really big one for us when we went to write PIVOT. All of us have power, right? Like, I have power, I'm a teacher, so I have the power to influence those under me and how people use their power is a measure of their character of who they are as a person. SCOT McKNIGHT  29:09 People have power. And anybody who exercises a decision, who is a leader, has a right to make those decisions. And people underneath them, I guess, have a right to bellyache about them as well. I mean, that's part of the complaint culture that workplaces develop. But to me, one of the signs of power desire is when someone who is your leader makes a decision that you don't like how do you respond? Do you manipulate? Do you gossip? Do you attack? Do you get other people in your corner so that you can eventually destroy that person's reputation and character? That's a very important element of power, in institutions, is a complaint culture that forms. All narcissists have no self awareness of the power that they have, and what they are doing to people around them. They have lack of self awareness. So they think what they're doing is right all the time. And when they're criticized, they DARVO. “That's not what I was doing.” Well, yes, you did. That's the impact you made on it. So they lacked that awareness.  So it needs to be revealed by people being able to have a safe place to be able to express what they've experienced from a person. I've been in institutions where presidents were removed. I'm at one right now. And the former president, there were too many people who were released, and then stories were released about that person. And The Roys Report reported about it. JULIE ROYS  30:53 Yes we did. SCOT McKNIGHT  30:54 Not very good news for our seminary. But those were symptoms, signs that something's going on. And it was not a safe place for people to be able to register their complaints. And it didn't seem to be achieving anything, I think power is going to happen. People get to do this, who are leaders. They have power. So they exercise their power, and not everybody's going to agree with it, and people get to interpret it. And they can be dead wrong, and be very convincing, even though they're wrong. But at the same time, there has to be some sort of device mechanism, TOV tool, that gives people some indications of how that person is using power. And I think it's possible to reveal some of this stuff. But I think it's impossible to change a narcissist. JULIE ROYS  31:52 So you have to have somebody in positions of leadership, who obviously have the character and wants to use their power in a right way. And one of the things that that you do in this book, which I think is really helpful, is you not only have questions at the end of each chapter, but you do have assessment tools, where you can begin to assess some of these things to say, Okay, this is a toxic culture, this is a TOV culture, this is a good way of using power. And maybe not so good way of using power. It's a beautiful thing, when you see somebody in power, use that power to protect others to draw out someone who's quiet, who wouldn't normally speak, to be able to notice the weak and the vulnerable and to use the power to protect and to help. SCOT McKNIGHT  32:39 I think people who use power well, are not recognized as using power. Because something happens and you go, Oh, that was really nice. And you didn't realize that that leader decided to elevate somebody in a way that empowered them. So when they're empowering others, you usually don't recognize that they're using power. It's when they violate the power. A good umpire in a baseball game is unrecognized. And when you're talking about the umpires, it's because they screwed up. They messed up stuff. You notice it. “That was terrible!” And I think that's the same way with leaders. If you don't recognize their leadership, and things are functioning pretty well, you probably got a pretty good leader. JULIE ROYS  33:33 That's good. Yeah, I would say the number one problem of most of the bad leaders that I report on, obviously, the character issues there and everything, but the way it often comes out is in hypocrisy. They're just not living, what they say they believe. And you make a big point of one of the priorities is you got to model. You got to be the example of what you want your culture to be. And I love this, one of the people that you talk about modeling this goodness is, as you said, Mr. Rogers. Explain how Mr. Rogers is modeling exactly what he's teaching. LAURA BARRINGER  34:14 Well, when we went to write A Church Called TOV, I kept sending my dad examples like, what about this pastor or this one? And he kept saying, no, no, no. And he said, We need somebody that's dead. (laguhter) Because–that's exactly what he said–they have to be dead. Because there's too many scandals that erupt. And sure enough, we have a story in A Church Called TOV, that when it went to the next printing, we had to remove because the pastor, allegations etc. So we use Mr. Rogers as our example. Mr. Rogers, from everything we have read about him, the man that you saw on TV was the man that everybody knew. He was patient. He was gentle. He was just as kind in person as he was on the television screen. He would get distracted by children, he would tell Oprah, I'll come on your show, but you can't have children in the audience because I will be distracted, I will be I know that I will be, all of my attention will go to them the vulnerable. That's what my heart and soul is, is for. And so when you said hypocrisy, that's the opposite of Mr. Rogers, there are some beautiful stories that we recited in the book about him that he is as good a man as he appeared to be. JULIE ROYS  35:35 Hmm. And there was one in the book, I thought was so touching about a man whose wife . . . was the wife, the employee, I believe, or was LAURA BARRINGER  35:44 The wife was the employee. JULIE ROYS  35:46 Yeah. So the wife was the employee, and she died. It sounds like young, got cancer and, and Mr. Rogers would show up and visit, you know, visited on a regular basis. And the day she died, he he knocked on the door and said, I just had a sense that, that you needed me today, or you needed to be visited today. And here, she was dying. And he came in and cried with him, you know, as his wife was dying and prayed with him. And the husband said, he never talked about it. Nobody ever heard that story about Mr. Rogers. LAURA BARRINGER  36:21 He didn't get up and talk about the ways that he volunteered or helped people. I also love the story about the reporter who maybe this is in A Church Called TOV. No. I remember I don't remember no. He said, “Do you know, who is the most important person in the world to me right now?” And the reporter was like, Who who is the most important person? Mr. Rogers said, “You, I'm talking to you, you have my full attention. You're the most important person in the world to me right now.” And the reporter was, like, stunned that a celebrity would spend that much time and give him that much attention for I think he said an hour which was unheard of with celebrities, interviews. JULIE ROYS  37:05 Well, and as a reporter, you're just happy when somebody wants to talk to you because most of the people I talk to, they don't want to talk to me. SCOT McKNIGHT  37:13 But Julie, you know the issues of the people that that we want to find out more about, that have become celebrities that Katelyn Beaty has written about. They're there. And you just think they're just amazing because of the platform persona, that they've presented in their pastoral sermons. You just go, “I want to be like that person.” Okay, so the tendency is to make those the examples. And all you see about them is the presentation on the platform. And that's why I said to Laura, we can't take living examples now. I mean, yes, I understood what she was doing. And she had some wonderful stories, and they they truly are probably good people. But because I'm older, you know, I think when when I wrote when we wrote TOV I was probably 65. JULIE ROYS  38:10 A whippersnapper. SCOT McKNIGHT  38:11 Yeah, I was young compared to the day.  here were people that we wanted, you know, that I could easily say they were fantastic people that in the last five years, I would say, Well, maybe that's not so true. So it was important for me I finally said, Laura, we got to find dead people whose whose stories are unimpeachable. But I have found stories of people that I have exalted in my years as a professor. I've written I've used their names. And I discovered later that they were horrific people. And nobody knew. Nobody was talking. Because even in those days, you didn't talk about things like that. We, I mean, when Kennedy was a president, we didn't talk about what was going on in the White House, behind closed doors. Now we know these things. So that's why we went with dead people. But but nobody questions Mr. Rogers. And so we used him in both books. LAURA BARRINGER  39:09 I remember that–my dad's texts, “Nope, only dead people.” JULIE ROYS  39:13 Problem is even dead people, Ravi Zacharias that didn't come out, you know, until after he was dead. But I mean, obviously, a little better if they've had a little bit of time, between their life and some study of the kind of person they were, SCOT McKNIGHT  39:30 I would also say that nobody's perfect. Not many people are like Mr. Rogers. So people with warts and all is not the worst thing. David is hardly a beautiful character in all the pages of the Bible. The apostle Paul can lash out at people. I don't know about Peter. Mary seems to be a good person, other than the fact that she's trying to tell Jesus what to do and how to be a messiah. So we just we can't expect perfection but we expect a certain level of maturity that we can count on. And we may find out that Pastor got really mad one day and said something he shouldn't have, but he admitted it. JULIE ROYS  40:11 That's a big one to me is Do you hear the pastor admitting wrong, asking for forgiveness, because that needs to be a regular practice. Let's talk about some of these practices of transforming cultures. And you talk about there being a transformational agent. Normally, when you see these kinds of transformations happening, and as well, a transformational coalition. SCOT McKNIGHT  40:35 Julie, let's just say you realize your church has got some stuff in the soil that needs to be healed. Alright. And you go through a process of discovery. And you come up with five things that we need to work on in the next five years. All right, I think that's a pretty normal process. I don't believe that the pastor should be in charge of all this. Now, in most churches, I believe the pastor will be in charge of this because the pastor is in charge of everything. But I think it should be handed off to a transformation agent, who is independent, and can get more honest responses from people than the pastor can, unless the transformation agent is just a flying monkey, as the as the words are used, or a mole for the pastor. If it's a person of character, they're going to be trusted, and the pastor is going to have to listen to the results. But I think it's good to have a transformation agent whose responsibility it is to organize administrate, to evaluate, and to pass the information on so that it can be implemented in a really good way to the leadership of the church. But it can't just be one person or two people. And it's not based on it's not a bunch of sermons, LAURA BARRINGER  41:52 I don't want to skip over something really important that we learned from Edgar Schein, again, the major researcher on this topic of transforming culture, is he said, You can't transform anything until your problem is clearly defined and crystal clear. That's what led us to write the TOV tool so that it can help groups or whomever is taking it churches, groups, teams, clearly identify areas of strength, and then areas where growth is important. And Edgar Schein said, that's like the most important step of all is listening. And that might take a lot of conversation and a lot of authenticity and hearing maybe things about yourself, you don't want to hear. But that's like one of the most important steps is identifying, “we are not putting people above the reputation of our institution.” Or, “it seems like we're really good at truth telling, but we're not offering a lot of justice to the wounded.” So every organization is different. But those conversations where you unearth, what are the strengths, and where do we need to grow in these areas of like that we created the TOV tool out of our circle of TOV from the first book. It just cannot be skipped over. And then that can be used by the transformation agent and the coalition to have some data and listening as they move forward or attempt to move forward. SCOT McKNIGHT  43:28 And I would add to the coalition is you can't transform a culture because you're a persuasive speaker, with a couple of friends in your church that are all doing this. It takes a culture's ownership to get there. So our theory is okay, we got a transformation agent and a couple people, they studied the Bible, I won't get into all that, then it grows to a group of five. And then it grows to a group of 10. And then it splits into a couple more groups that grow to a group of 30 or 40. And you're starting to build a critical mass of people who are committed to this idea and working it out. But they're contributing to the idea. So it's not like I got a great idea. Now we're gonna go implement it. It is, I have an idea. Let's work on this together. And before long once you get 50 to 75 people involved in it, there's ownership but the idea has now grown into something that is healthier, stronger, deeper, wider. It starts to get ownership, if you have a fairly sizable church, before you go to the church. JULIE ROYS  44:36 And I think what's to me exciting about listening about some churches that did this. And even hearing you talk about it, this is a very organic thing that happens as people are discussing this and something starts to grow. I mean, basically, this culture begins to reform as people are reforming. Right? And they're beginning to model it, and they're beginning to change, and so then you begin to see this transformation happen. And then hopefully you're moving into a different culture. Right? And the congregation becomes a different kind of culture.  And those who quite frankly, don't buy into it, leave. I mean, I remember the power of that when we did youth ministry, like we just said, from the beginning, we don't do entertainment, the world does that better than us. But if you want to come and worship and pray, like, we're really going to be a part of that, and studying the Bible, and the ones that weren't interested in that would just fall off. And then we would gather a group of people who really wanted to do that, and it became our culture. But it takes that kind of time. But you talk about then the last part of your book about the powers and the congregational culture powers, I thought it was really interesting, especially Laura, when you were talking about kind of the practices that led to a culture at Willow Creek when you were there. And then you contrasted that with these practices that led to a culture at this Quaker church that was completely different. Talk about that, because I thought, it's such a great example and a contrast, because we often don't think about what we're doing when we're doing it, and how this is creating a culture. But I think, as I was reading it, it made me think about things that I'm doing, and what kind of culture does that create? So yeah, talk about that. LAURA BARRINGER  46:29 So I didn't really realize what the culture of Willow Creek was, until I left Willow Creek. And being out of it allowed me to see and I'm not criticizing it, I'm just saying like, factually, there are a lot of people that attend, they put people up on stage, that walk through the campus with bodyguards. And there's sort of a feel of like haves have nots, or the whole service leads up to what the speaker is going to say. And you know, weeks ahead of time, who's going to be speaking and like Mark, and I'd be the first to tell you, like, we got into a terrible rut at Willow, we were like, Oh, we don't really like that speaker. So we're not going to go this week, you know, our neighbors would be like, come for a bike ride. Okay, we'll do that instead, like, we were just consumers of a show. So we left Willow Creek and experienced the Anglican tradition, which is very different. But then what I wrote about in the book, I tried to get into less Twitter fights or whatever X fights? JULIE ROYS  47:37 It's weird. It's just weird. LAURA BARRINGER  47:39 I know. One day, I just wandered into this, like delightful conversation with a Quaker pastor. And I remember his name, because we have a family friend of the same name, Scott Wagner, and he posted pictures, and I don't know anything about the Quakers other than what I've read, you know, just a little bit. So I'm not I don't know where they stand theologically at all. But his pictures were so startling to me. They were getting ready for a meeting. And the chairs were set up in a circle. And it was just in this like, small room with wooden floors. And after coming out of the Willow Creek tradition was like, well, where's the speaker gonna stand? But that wasn't what the goal was at all. It was like a meeting where everybody was seen as equals. And I don't know, it seems like is that how the early church was? That's how I picture people in my head, like, sitting in a circle together. Not like all of us staring at a person on stage. JULIE ROYS  48:44 I have to say, being in a house church now and experiencing meeting in homes, and we haven't had a sermon. You know, in the past 18 months since I've been going to our house church. There's no sermon. We're opening the Bible. And there's a facilitator and we dig in together, and we study the Bible together. And I just love it. I mean, I come away every Sunday, it's like, wow, that was rich, that was really good. And I've gone to a church too where we were in the round, in fact, is one of your colleagues there, Dave Fitch, his church that we attended, where we would have the chairs all in a circle, I love that, I think in the Anglican tradition, instead of the sermon being the highlight, really, the table is. Eucharist. That's the highlight, and that communicates a value. So I think looking at what are we doing in the service, and I have wondered about this. And to me, the fact that we make a man on stage preaching, which is very heavy head knowledge. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm, I often wonder if that's sort of a post enlightenment way of thinking that the pinnacle of the service is the sermon? SCOT McKNIGHT  49:56 It happened at the reformation that turned the sermon into a major, the major focus. The early church didn't have sermons. LAURA BARRINGER  50:04 They had letters, right? They would hear, read letters? JULIE ROYS  50:07 And at that one sermon where, what is it Eutychus?  Fell out the window and died. You know, SCOT McKNIGHT  50:12 Paul was talking, he was talking. But I mean, it was a it was a house church, you're talking about a normal sized living room with maybe an atrium with some water in the middle. And people around it talking and someone instructors instruction. There'd be the reading of a letter. There'd be the exposition of a psalm or something. And eventually, they would read scriptures and then preach about or teach about it. But it was a fellowship, where there was instruction, there was prayer, there was worship, there was caring for one another. And that's where the church got started. Jesus didn't preach sermons in the houses, he told stories, parables, it's where the parables came from. JULIE ROYS  50:59 Well, obviously, there's a lot of things that we can do to sort of jumpstart transformation. We've talked about some of those. But I love that you kind of land this book with where the power really comes from. And it's from the Holy Spirit, and it's from God's grace. So talk about the importance of relying on the Spirit, and grace, so that we're not manufacturing something but we're actually being led by God. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:31 When we were writing this book, I told Laura, probably 10 times, every chapter could be the first chapter. They were all interlocking. LAURA BARRINGER  51:39 We had trouble ordering the chapters. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:42 And theologically, I wanted to begin with that theological ending, but I know that just sounds like I'm a seminary professor. And we've got to get people interested in the topic first. So the neuralgics is what it's called sometimes. So yeah, I think the example of Christ, the significance of the Holy Spirit being open to the Spirit, the power of God's grace, which is operative, in the example of Christ, and in the power of the Spirit, all those things are what ultimately is responsible for transformation of an individual person, and of a community, a church. If we think it's just mechanics, and structure, and system and program, it's gonna go dry. But when it is the dynamic of the Spirit of God, leading us, prompting us, directing us, making us change, making us think of new things, we're in the right place. LAURA BARRINGER  52:39 That's what I love about the story of Oak Hills is that they say we felt this sense of dis equilibrium in our soul. And they surrendered to what they felt the Spirit was telling them and leading them. And they followed. And I think they would say, the transformation was worth it. Rather than having consumers, they were discipling people to grow in Christ. And they were like, we just steadily pushed against the culture, and taught people how to live like Jesus. That was it. JULIE ROYS  53:12 And I believe that Jesus said, his last words were not to go and make big churches or converts. But yeah, to make disciples, that is, what the church should be doing. And so I just really appreciate what you guys have put together here in this book, and that you're really moving people, I think, towards something beautiful and something good. Any last thoughts or final encouragement for those who might be thinking of embarking on this journey of trying to transform or are in the midst of it. And I mean, as I said, at the beginning, it's not for the faint of heart, it's not going to be easy. It could be a seven year or even longer process, any encouragement for them right now. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:00 I would say go with it. There's going to be many times when you'd like to return back to where you started and say, we'll just go back to where it was working. Roll with it. Because it's going to be different for every group. But it's worth it to pursue this direction, to see what God can do in your church and in your institution, over time, as you begin to focus on, let's say, the power of God's grace to transform us into being people who are like Jesus Christ. JULIE ROYS  54:34 And that's pretty exciting. LAURA BARRINGER  54:36 Amen. JULIE ROYS  54:37 Well, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you and appreciate the ministry that you're having and the impact that you're having. This has been extremely helpful. So thank you. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:48 Thank you, Julie. LAURA BARRINGER  54:49 Thank you for having us. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:51 Thanks, Laura. LAURA BARRINGER  54:52 Thanks, Dad. JULIE ROYS  54:54 Scot and Laura, thank you so much for the gift of this book—and the gift of your time today. This has been so helpful . . . And if you'd like a copy of Scot & Laura's new book, Pivot, we would be happy to send you one for a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report. Again, we don't have any large donors or advertising. We simply have you—the people who care about exposing toxic churches and leaders, and then encouraging them to transform into TOV ones. So, if you'd like to support our work and get the book Pivot, just go to JulieRoys.com/donate. Also, I want to let you know that next week, I'll be releasing another talk from Restore by Carson Weitnauer on Disillusionment and Hope. This is an extremely vulnerable and moving talk where Carson tells his profound disillusionment when he discovered the truth about Ravi Zacharias. At the time, Carson was a director at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries—and Ravi had been his hero. This is such a painfully honest, yet hopeful, talk—and one you won't want to miss. So, be watching for that. We'll release the talk as both an audio podcast and a video at my YouTube channel. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you won't miss any of these episodes! And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then, please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today! Hope you were blessed and encouraged!   Read more

It is no secret that participation within institutions of faith is significantly declining in this country. While the reasons for this are complex, the decline has coincided with a series of very public failures and scandals involving prominent Christian leaders, denominations, and institutions. Today on the podcast we talk with Katelyn Beaty - journalist, editor and author of the book Celebrities for Jesus. We discuss the church (the subject of chapter 6 in my book) and how to deal with disappointment with the church in healthy, honest ways. Katelyn shares her perspective on the importance of accountability and truth-telling within the communities of faith, and offers a word of hope for what the church could be when it is operating in a healthy way.

Did you attend Acquire the Fire, or send a teen to one of their events in the 90's? Brian and Aubrey are reading through a new piece on this from Katelyn Beaty; Then, the curious case of a Disneyland Paris cast member who may or may not have been fired over waffles; ChatGPT writes sermons for both Brian and Aubrey; And, from the New York Times, thoughts on decluttering your home, your mind and your technology. Follow The Common Good on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram Hosted by Aubrey Sampson and Brian From Produced by Laura Finch and Keith ConradSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Considering the fall of famous Christian leaders in recent years, it’s time for the church to reckon with celebrity power.  Katelyn Beaty joins Chris Brooks to explore the ways Christians have unintentionally fostered a celebrity culture and to call us to the enduring influence of ordinary, unseen spiritual faithfulness. EQUIPPERS - Our next ZOOM MEETING is Thursday, August 24!    REGISTRATION DETAILS ARE IN YOUR E-MAIL INBOX.  Not an Equipper and want to attend?   Become an Equipper Today  

Author Katelyn Beaty joins the podcast to discuss her recent book, Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Profits, and Platforms are Hurting the Church. We discuss the history of evangelicalism as it relates to the use of mass media, as well as how the wider cultural phenomenon of celebrity relates to the evangelical movement. How has celebrity shaped pastors' sense of vocation? What are the dangers associated with the megachurch movement and famous pastors? This and much more on this episode.

This week on Ministry Strong Lisa Whittle welcomes Katelyn Beaty, a journalist, editor, and keen observer of trends in the American church. Lisa & Katelyn hit the hard topic of celebrity Christians and go deeper into this topic of why it's not okay and what we can do about it.   Links: Classical Conversations Leave a Review for the JOE Show The Path - World Relief Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church JOE S8E6 - Lisa + Friends: Katelyn Beaty Ministry Strong Instagram Connect with Katelyn: Website Katelyn Beaty Books Instagram Facebook

The Integrity Crisis in Today's Churches [ mini-series ] In Part 2 of our mini-series on Integrity in the Church, Katelyn Beaty talks about the history of the idea of celebrity, how it's impacted the church, how Billy Graham handled his fame, and how personas, platforms, and profits are harming the church and what to do about it. Note: This isn't a cynical hit piece on the church, but hopefully, a thoughtful conversation on what to do if becoming well-known comes your way. Show Notes On The Rise Newsletter  

Carey Nieuwhof shares his thoughts on the crisis of integrity in today's churches. In this short episode, Carey also previews what you can expect in the upcoming Integrity series. Guests will include Dr. Henry Cloud, Katelyn Beaty, Chuck DeGroat, Winn Collier, Eric Peterson, Collin Hansen, and Tim Keller. Subscribe to the On The Rise Newsletter

The time has come for the church to reexamine its relationship to celebrity. Journalist and author Katelyn Beaty shares from her book "Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church." Faith Radio podcasts are made possible by your support. Give now: click here

Today we're so excited to welcome Katelyn Beaty to the podcast, author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church. We'll be discussing Abigail's resistance to corrupt power in 1 Samuel 25, and the ways her example can inform the modern Church. Katelyn will help us look at how we can interrogate our own stewardship of power and look with curiosity and honesty at the structures around us. There's a lot to uncover about the Christian life and ordinary acts of faithfulness. For reference and further reading: 1 Samuel 25 John 10 Check out Katelyn's work: Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church A Woman's Place https://www.katelynbeaty.com/ Her podcast: Saved By the City Follow her on Twitter @KatelynBeaty and Instagram @katelyn_beaty Shop our Excavate merch store https://excavatepodcast.myshopify.com/ Follow us on Instagram and Facebook @excavatepodcast To support the podcast on patreon visit: www.patreon.com/excavatepodcast Our patreon perks include new content, zoom calls, and the opportunity for our higher tier options to invite us to your small group.

In this episode we're talking about Celebrities for Jesus with Katelyn Beaty, who is the editorial director for Brazos Press and who previously served as print managing editor at Christianity Today. She's also the cohost of the Saved by the City podcast, and the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits are Hurting the Church (published by Brazos). In our conversation with Katelyn, we discuss the allure of celebrity in American evangelicalism, the lack of interrogation of whether church growth is an automatic work of the Spirit, whether institutions are irreparably flawed, and how the rise of celebrity in the church connects with Enneagram personality types, among many other interesting things. Team members on the episode from The Two Cities include: Dr. John Anthony Dunne, Dr. Madison Pierce, Rev. Dr. Chris Porter, and Dr. Sydney Tooth.

In this week's conversation between Dr. James Emery White and co-host Alexis Drye, the discussion was prompted by a disturbing article in the New York Times that was shared on Church & Culture's Daily Headline News. The title of the article, written by Andrew Higgins, was, “He Told Followers to Starve to Meet Jesus. Why Did So Many Do It?” Why indeed. What leads people to join a cult, especially when the leader encourages their followers to take their own lives? And what connection do conspiracy theories have to cults? Episode Links This is not the first time that the podcast discussion has touched on the topic of cults. We'd encourage you to go back and listen to CCP35: On Scientology and CCP18: On Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Dr. White outlined the marks of a cult and, in addition to discussing the cult led by Paul Mackenzie in Kenya from the NYT article, he also mentioned the story about the doomsday cult that led a mother in Idaho to murder her two children, as well as the HBO Max show “The Vow,” a documentary series about the cult NXIVM. One of the big takeaways is that people seem to long for community, especially when facing times of difficulty in life. This is also what can make the world of conspiracy theories so appealing, particularly when they seem to morph into a cult like we witnessed happen during the pandemic. This is what led to the rise of QAnon, predominately through social media. For more on that you should check out an excellent article written by Katelyn Beaty in Religion News Service titled, “ QAnon: The alternative religion that's coming to your church,” as well as Dr. White's blog simply titled “QAnon.” Finally, the discussion ended with a look at why truth matters so very much. Dr. White mentioned a video from Stephen Colbert that, while intending to be comedic, was really quite prescient. You can watch the video on “truthiness” HERE. Dr. White also wrote a blog called “Choosing Our Truth Sources” to help people understand why truth is so important. He referenced a quote from Freud who said, “If it were really a matter of indifference what we believed, if there were no knowledge which was distinguished from among our opinions by the fact that it corresponds with reality, then we might just as well build our bridges of cardboard as of stone, or inject a tenth of a gram of morphia into a patient instead of a hundredth, or take tear-gas as a narcotic instead of ether” (from the New Introductory Lectures on Psycho-analysis, 1933). For those of you who are new to Church & Culture, we'd love to invite you to subscribe (for free of course) to the twice-weekly Church & Culture blog and check out the Daily Headline News - a collection of headlines from around the globe each weekday.

A talk from the 15th Annual Mockingbird Conference in NYC. April 28th, 2023. Property of Mockingbird Ministries, all rights reserved (www.mbird.com).

On today's program, Compassion International paid Hillsong $1-million a year to sponsor its concert tour.  We'll have details. Have you ever wondered why all the songs on Christian radio sound the same?  There's a reason, and that reason is money.  We'll explain. We begin today with the resignation of the chairman of the board of Bob Jones University. FINAL THOUGHTS:  A quick shout-out to the folks in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.  I'm there this week, and I had a chance to meet with supporters of MinistryWatch who live in the area.  That was such an encouraging time for me.  We had a great visit. And a reminder that I'll be in Orlando, Florida, in May, and in Southern California in June, doing similar events.  If you live in these areas, check your in-box for dates, times, and places for events in your vicinity. The producers for today's program are Rich Roszel and Jeff McIntosh.  We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Emily Kern, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Kim Roberts, Jessica Eturralde, Anne Stych, Katelyn Beaty, Bob Smietana, Richard Levey, Rod Pitzer—and you, Warren. Special thanks to The NonProfit Times and Katelyn Beaty with The Beaty Beat for contributing material for this week's podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.

Christian culture in our day is full of superstars: authors, athletes, media personas, and even pastors with millions of followers and fans. Their success, and the devotion they receive, often rivals that of their secular counterparts. But what if such fame actually does more harm than good? Today, Katleyn Beaty explores this question at length, discussing how Christianity became an arena for celebrity, and why a celebrity-based culture makes little room for the traditional Christian virtues of humility, poverty, and accountability. Similar episodes Interview with Kristin Du Mez Resources mentioned this episode Middlemarch by George Eliot PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link    Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Stitcher | Google | YouTube Follow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTube Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter  Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Become a Member: Virtual Only | Standard | Premium See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Shop No Small Endeavor Merch: Scandalous Witness Course | Scandalous Witness Book |  Joy & the Good Life Course    Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This was a much-needed conversation where we got to talk about what it looks like to have unhealthy celebrity-centered culture in our churches (even if no 'celebrities' go to our church) and what it looks like to instead have healthy Christ-centric churches and culture. Follow Katelyn: instagram.com/katelyn_beaty Buy Her Book: Celebrities for Jesus - www.amazon.com/Celebrities-Jesus-Personas-Platforms-Profits/dp/1587435187/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678907536&sr=8-1 JOIN US AT THE SOWERS SUMMIT CONFERENCE THIS SUMMER - Details and Registration here: www.sowerssummit.com Healing from The Body Course Starting March 27th! https://www.thefullgarden.com/hftb2023 Connect with us: -Follow host - Pricelis: instagram.com/pricelispd -Follow our community: instagram.com/we.are.full -Join our email list: view.flodesk.com/pages/6215291dd328ec5152cf122e -Check out our website: wearefullcollective.com and pricelispd.com

We've all heard of Christian leaders who have used their power and influence to bring harm on people within their church. In this conversation, we talk with Katelyn Beaty about how we can avoid that from continuing to happen in the church. How can we maintain we're all about Jesus instead of all about ourselves?Check out her book here: https://amzn.to/3ZKV7x8

In this episode we chat with journalist and editor Katelyn Beaty about Christian celebrity. After distinguishing between celebrity and fame, Katelyn explores the ways celebrity has shaped the church and Christian faith in unhealthy ways, how it has led to the abuse of power, the pursuit of growth at all costs, and the fall from grace of so many celebrity Christian leaders.   After the interview, Nomad hosts Tim Nash and Nick Thorley reflect on their own relationship with Christian celebrities, both positive and negative, and the role they've played in their evolving faith.  Interview starts at 17m 19s Show Notes → The creation of Nomad's thoughtful, wonderfully ad-free content is entirely funded by our equally thoughtful, wonderful listeners. Supporting us gives access to Nomad's online communities through the Beloved Listener Lounge, Enneagram Lounge and Nomad Book Club - as well as bonus content like Nomad Contemplations, Nomad Devotionals and Nomad Revisited. If you'd like to join our lovely supporters head to our Patreon Page to donate and you may even be rewarded with a pen or Beloved Listener mug! If you're hoping to connect with others who are more local, you can also take a look at our Listener Map or join our Nomad Gathering Facebook page. Additionally, we share listener's stories on our blog, all with the hope of facilitating understanding, connection and supportive relationships.  

Celebrities For Jesus. Today, Mike and Tim welcome new friend, Katelyn Beaty, to discuss her book, "Celebrities For Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church." Katelyn offers insight from her time at Christianity Today as to the dangers, causes and damage 'celebrity' had brought to the Church. What role do we all play? Is the damage reversible and if so, how? How did this happen? What is the difference between celebrity and fame? Katelyn can be found HERE As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Always feel free to email in questions to hello@voxpodcast.com, and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram. Learn more about the Voxology Podcast Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

Guest host Alissa Wilkinson talks with Katelyn Beaty, author of the new book Celebrities for Jesus, about how the dynamics of fame, influence, and new media are changing our experience of religious faith. They discuss how celebrities like Billy Graham set the tone for a lionization of celebrity in the Evangelical Church, why faith leaders cultivate distance from their congregations and build influencer-style social media presences, and share their thoughts on the future of the Church in our perhaps increasingly celebrity-obsessed culture. Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox Guest: Katelyn Beaty (@KatelynBeaty), author References:  Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church by Katelyn Beaty (Brazos; 2022) "Inside Hillsong, the Church of Choice for Justin Bieber and Kevin Durant" by Taffy Brodesser-Akner (GQ; Dec. 17, 2015) "After Columbine, martyrdom became a powerful fantasy for Christian teenagers" by Alissa Wilkinson (Vox; Apr. 17, 2019)   Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by:  Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Patrick Boyd Senior Producer: Katelyn Bogucki Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Katelyn Beaty, journalist, editor and author of the book Celebrities For Jesus: How Personas, Platforms and Profits are Hurting the Church, sits down with Tim to discuss her book. Katelyn explains her background in Evangelicalism. Tim and Katelyn discuss her book and how celebrity pastors have become such a part of Evangelical culture. They discuss how celebrity pastors are created and how the book publishing industry is complicit. Lastly, they discuss prevention of the scandals we have seen in recent years. Learn more about Katelyn Beaty's book Get tickets to our live podcast event! Check Out Bibliotheca Follow us on Instagram: @thenewevangelicals Support Our Work Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Listening In comes to you from WORLD News Group, and this program is just one of the many podcasts and publications available. To find out more about our complete family of products visit WNG.org.Tune in next week to hear my conversation with Robert Jeffress. Robert Jeffress has been one of most vigorous defenders of Donald Trump in the world of evangelicalism. I'll ask him about his relationship with former President Trump, and we'll also talk about his new book, 18 Minutes With Jesus, a book about The Sermon on the Mount.The producer for today's program is Paul Butler. Johnny Franklin is our technical producer. Production assistance from Lillian Hamman. I'm your host, Warren Smith. And you've been Listening In.

Listening In comes to you from WORLD News Group, and this program is just one of the many podcasts and publications available. To find out more about our complete family of products visit WNG.org.Tune in next week to hear my conversation with Robert Jeffress. Robert Jeffress has been one of most vigorous defenders of Donald Trump in the world of evangelicalism. I'll ask him about his relationship with former President Trump, and we'll also talk about his new book, 18 Minutes With Jesus, a book about The Sermon on the Mount.The producer for today's program is Paul Butler. Johnny Franklin is our technical producer. Production assistance from Lillian Hamman. I'm your host, Warren Smith. And you've been Listening In.

Listening In comes to you from WORLD News Group, and this program is just one of the many podcasts and publications available. To find out more about our complete family of products visit WNG.org.Tune in next week to hear my conversation with Robert Jeffress. Robert Jeffress has been one of most vigorous defenders of Donald Trump in the world of evangelicalism. I'll ask him about his relationship with former President Trump, and we'll also talk about his new book, 18 Minutes With Jesus, a book about The Sermon on the Mount.The producer for today's program is Paul Butler. Johnny Franklin is our technical producer. Production assistance from Lillian Hamman. I'm your host, Warren Smith. And you've been Listening In.

Listening In comes to you from WORLD News Group, and this program is just one of the many podcasts and publications available. To find out more about our complete family of products visit WNG.org.Tune in next week to hear my conversation with Robert Jeffress. Robert Jeffress has been one of most vigorous defenders of Donald Trump in the world of evangelicalism. I'll ask him about his relationship with former President Trump, and we'll also talk about his new book, 18 Minutes With Jesus, a book about The Sermon on the Mount.The producer for today's program is Paul Butler. Johnny Franklin is our technical producer. Production assistance from Lillian Hamman. I'm your host, Warren Smith. And you've been Listening In.

This week on From the Front Porch, Annie recaps the books she read and loved in September. As always, we're offering a September Reading Recap Bundle, which features Annie's three favorite books from this month. Get your September Reading Recap Bundle or your favorites of Annie's September reads on our website: September Reading Recap Bundle Agatha of Little Neon by Claire Luchette The Revivalists by Christopher M. Hood Directed by James Burrows by James Burrows Sam by Allegra Goodman River of the Gods by Candice Millard The Absolutely True Diary of A Part-Time Indian by Sherman Alexie A Flaw in the Design by Nathan Oates Lucy by the Sea by Elizabeth Strout How Not to Drown in a Glass of Water by Angie Cruz From the Front Porch is a weekly podcast production of The Bookshelf, an independent bookstore in South Georgia. You can follow The Bookshelf's daily happenings on Instagram at @bookshelftville, and all the books from today's episode can be purchased online through our store website, www.bookshelfthomasville.com.  A full transcript of today's episode can be found here. Special thanks to Dylan and his team at Studio D Podcast Production for sound and editing and for our theme music, which sets the perfect warm and friendly tone for our Thursday conversations.  This week Annie is listening to Celebrities for Jesus by Katelyn Beaty. If you liked what you heard in today's episode, tell us by leaving a review on iTunes. Or, if you're so inclined, support us on Patreon, where you can hear our staff's weekly New Release Tuesday conversations, read full book reviews in our monthly Shelf Life newsletter and follow along as Hunter and I conquer a classic. Just go to patreon.com/fromthefrontporch. We're so grateful for you, and we look forward to meeting back here next week. Our Executive Producers are... Donna Hetchler, Angie Erickson, Cammy Tidwell, Chantalle C, Nicole Marsee, Wendi Jenkins, Laurie Johnson, and Kate Johnston Tucker.

Evangelicals are no longer the largest religious group in the South. Russell Moore says they've been replaced by a dangerous new kind of southern secularism. These MAGA-vangelicals don't attend church, don't follow the moral teachings of the Bible, and are fixated on politics and conspiracy theories but still call themselves “Christians.” What role does the church have in mitigating the danger of this new sect? Plus, a church in Texas faces legal trouble for performing an evangelistic revision of the musical Hamilton without a license. Then, Katelyn Beaty is back to discuss her new book Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits are Hurting the Church. She explains why we keep manufacturing more Christian celebrities despite their high failure rate, and why accountability structures aren't enough. Also this week, Phil eulogizes Freya the walrus, and a man sues after five years of flatulence. Patreon Bonus with Katelyn Beaty: The ugly side of Christian publishing - https://www.patreon.com/posts/70617486/ News Segment 2:45 - Freya the walrus update 9:42 - News of the Butt 15:25 - Church production of Hamilton 25:55 - The new secular south 42:48 - With God Daily https://withgoddaily.com/ Interview with Katelyn Beaty “Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits are Hurting the Church” - https://amzn.to/3wb3aqJ 44:10 - Interview intro 46:15 - Why this book? 50:45 - Fame vs. celebrity 58:13 - When accountability doesn't work 1:04:27 - Celebrity and an illusion of intimacy 1:13:29 - Christian celebrity and discipleship 1:19:41 - Credits Other articles and resources mentioned: “When the South Loosens its Bible Belt” by Russell Moore (Christianity Today) - https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2022/august-web-only/russell-moore-white-evangelicals-bible-belt-south-church.html “Fighting Flesh and Blood” by Kristin Du Mez - https://kristindumez.substack.com/p/fighting-flesh-and-blood?sd=pf “A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing” by Laura McKnight Barringer and Scot McKnight - https://amzn.to/3A4jRF9 News of the Butt - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11041055/Father-stopped-farting-ate-ham-roll-market-five-years-ago-sues-200k.html Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/ Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.