The Disrupters: Faith Changing Culture

We're back, with a bonus Oscars episode of The Disrupters. Nancy talks to Rebecca Sun, the senior editor of diversity and inclusion at the Hollywood Reporter to discuss the various nominees, the lack of a dominant Oscars narrative, the confounding nature of Drive My Car, and the upcoming Pachinko TV series.

"I think it fundamentally comes back to, we want to win. We want to be told we're right. And we don't want to be put in a position where we're being called to lay down our lives for our friends and neighbors." Mike Cosper is perhaps best known for his breakthrough podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. The podcast experienced crossover success, rising up the mainstream podcast charts and being listened to by Christians and non-Christians alike. Having finished the series, Mike has clear eyes about the failures of the white evangelical church, and while race may not have been a major factor in the original podcast, he sees a direct line from white evangelicalism's struggle against racial justice to the kinds of attitudes that lead to the titular disaster of his podcast. In this episode, we ask Mike Cosper why people of color stayed away from churches like Mars Hill, and explore the deeper reasons for the vitriol they're experiencing now. Learn more about The Disrupters podcast at ivpress.com/disrupters. Plus, listeners of The Disrupters podcast will get 30% off all IVP titles plus free US shipping by using promo code DISRUPT at ivpress.com.

As we exist in this life, in what ways can we make this world a better place? The simplicity and depth of this question exemplifies who Nick Cho is. As “Your Korean Dad” on TikTok, with over 3 million followers, Nick speaks gently and directly to viewers in his less than a minute-long videos. Each one is characterized by fatherly care, authenticity and whimsy. Nick takes us to buy snacks at Walgreens. He makes coffee for us while we do homework. He also addresses Transracial adoptees, acknowledging their struggles and telling them “I see you.” Some have dubbed him a modern-day Mr. Rogers. In this episode, we talk to Cho about how church life has formed him and why he walked away. Learn more about The Disrupters podcast at ivpress.com/disrupters. Plus, listeners of The Disrupters podcast will get 30% off all IVP titles plus free US shipping by using promo code DISRUPT at ivpress.com.

“I find that my journey as an Asian-American parallels my journey of faith as well this is where it intersects.” -Phil Yu “I don't think I can talk about being Asian-American really without talking about the communities of faith that have fed that identity.” -Jeff Yang   Phil Yu and Jeff Yang are the godfathers of Asian American pop culture and men of faith. On this episode of The Disrupters, we talk about how the two identities intersect when it comes to community and continual investment. Learn more about The Disrupters podcast at ivpress.com/disrupters. Plus, listeners of The Disrupters podcast will get 30% off all IVP titles plus free US shipping by using promo code DISRUPT at ivpress.com.

“When you take a story as beautiful as the Gospel of loving sacrifice, of a man who would heal the sick, care for the poor, bound up the brokenhearted, and you begin to force that belief in institutional settings, it destroys that message.” Terry Wildman understood what he was up against when he took the lead in a new Native-centered translation of the Bible: “If we can separate Jesus from the colonial baggage…then our Native people can take a real honest look at this holy man.” Addressing how words like “sin” were once used to oppress Native peoples, Terry Wildman explains how the First Nations Version of the New Testament gets back to the heart of Creator's message of love. Learn more about The Disrupters podcast at ivpress.com/disrupters. Plus, listeners of The Disrupters podcast will get 30% off all IVP titles plus free US shipping by using promo code DISRUPT at ivpress.com.

“I'll be honest, my initial reaction to seeing an email that said ‘Audition for role of Nikki, Kung Fu,' was like, 'Really? Haven't we gone past this? Aren't we done with the trope of the Asian doing martial arts?'” When Olivia first saw the audition email for the reboot of Kung Fu, the once popular 1970s TV starring David Carradine, she was not impressed.  Olivia Liang is an actor and director with no interest in playing a stereotype, even going so far as to set a personal boundary for herself not to learn martial arts unless she was actively paid to do so. When she was cast as the star of Kung Fu, that's precisely what happened. After becoming more acquainted with the reboot project, she said she got “really excited” that Kung Fu was “going to celebrate…martial arts, which is so near and dear to our culture” and the Chinese Americans “get to be fully formed characters.”  For Olivia Liang, this role was a fulfillment of God's “calling.” Listen as she describes how she wants to be a light in Hollywood through story-telling and “just loving on people.” Learn more about The Disrupters podcast at ivpress.com/disrupters. Plus, listeners of The Disrupters podcast will get 30% off all IVP titles plus free US shipping by using promo code DISRUPT at ivpress.com.

"I started to create what I call a 'let-go list,' trying to figure out as I evolve as a person, as a community leader, and as a co-leader in my family, really taking an evaluation and assessing the things I need to shed and let go as I create the type of space to give myself and my life to things that matter most in the moment." Terence Lester is a speaker, activist, author, and thought leader in the realm of systemic poverty. He is the founder of Love Beyond Walls, a non-profit organization focused on poverty awareness and community mobilization. His nationwide campaigns have been featured on MLK50, CNN, Good Morning America, USA Today just to name a few.  According to Terence, by reorganizing our time and getting into communities with others (even if it's just one trusted person!), we can all show up and make a difference in the world--whether it's “30 minutes a week or an hour every other week.” If “1000 people” can give “an hour of time,” Terence believes that the “compounded collective impact can make a huge difference.” Listen to this inspirational conversation as you make your New Year's resolutions. Learn more about The Disrupters podcast at ivpress.com/disrupters. Plus, listeners of The Disrupters podcast will get 30% off all IVP titles plus free US shipping by using promo code DISRUPT at ivpress.com.

“I always say there's three strands in my life. There's racial identity, there's hip hop culture, and there's religion. And all three are actually synonymous to me.” Jason Chu is a rapper and activist, speaking hope and healing to a broken world. His music has been heard on Warrior (HBO Max), Snowpiercer (TNT), and Wu Assassins (Netflix). He has shared poetry at the Obama White House, been featured in the Chinese American Museum of Los Angeles, and presented at the Getty Center. He has been named one of two 2022 “Artists At Work” by the Japanese American National Museum and Advancing Justice-LA.  In this episode, Jason and Nancy chat about how to bring together disparate parts of ourselves in synergistic ways.  “Without Jesus, I don't know who I am as an Asian American. Without hip hop, I don't know the God that I know. Without being Asian American, I don't make hip hop music because I don't got an identity, I don't got a community.”

“I don't like to be binary. But if you said 'you have to divide believers into two categories: fear-based or love-based...' I'm with team love.” Min Jin Lee grew up in the church with a grandfather who was a Presbyterian minister. Her novel Pachinko (2017) was a finalist for the National Book Award for Fiction, and a New York Times 10 Best Books of 2017. Min is a recipient of fellowships in Fiction from the Guggenheim Foundation (2018) and the Radcliffe Institute of Advanced Study at Harvard (2018-2019). She is a Writer-in-Residence at Amherst College (2019-2022). In 2018, Min had the unique honor of being a Double Jeopardy clue in the “Literary Types” category.  And yet, even with all of her accolades, she feels “it's nothing compared to feeling that you're a loved and accepted child of God.” It's a feeling she's known much of her life: "Even when I was very little and awkward and bullied, I really felt like I was a child of God. I still do."

“I'm gonna stop suppressing myself … and lying to myself, or at least lying to you for the sake of peace and reconciliation. At this point, I'm just gonna need to be real.” Mental Health Expert Dr. Peace Amadi, PsyD, is a Professor, Speaker, Coach, and TV Host. She is also the author of Why Do I Feel Like This? Understand Your Difficult Emotions and Find Grace to Move Through which hit #1 on Amazon's New Releases in Mental Health during its launch. She merges clinical insight and faith to encourage readers to listen to the hidden messages of their emotions. According to Amadi, she's seen firsthand that this isn't something that comes naturally to many in the church. Through the use of “spiritual platitudes” like “just let go and Let God,” “just forgive,” and “just don't worry about it,” many in the church are “cutting off our ability to get exactly what we need in that moment; we literally cannot heal when we bypass our emotions.” In this episode, Peace shares wisdom on how to keep it real with our feelings and one another.

"Ultimately, my career could go up, it could go down. But, it doesn't necessarily have any bearing with what's actually important in life." Gene Luen Yang has been making comics and graphic novels since the fifth grade, and by any measure, he's been a massive success. He wrote and drew ‘American Born Chinese,' the first graphic novel to be nominated for a national book award, now slated for adaptation as a live-action Disney+ series. He writes for DC and Marvel and he's won the McArthur Genius Award. It would be hard to argue with the success Yang has been experiencing. And yet, Gene says, "There was, at times, happiness about stuff, but it always felt like it was muted or limited." While some of his humble tendencies are cultural, in a very real sense they're also deeply rooted in faith.  In this episode of The Disrupters, Yang explores how his upbringing and his faith give him perspective.

Esau McCaulley discusses the new season of The Disrupters, coming December 2nd, with our new host, Nancy Wang Yuen, sociologist, pop culture expert and a professor at Biola University.

"I've always had this radical approach to engaging lost people." Apologist Lisa Fields is the founder of the Jude 3 Project, a ministry dedicated to helping Christians know what they believe and why they believe it. From growing up in the black church to attending seminary, Lisa has learned to engage in the hard questions for the sake of the Gospel. In this last episode of season 2 of the Disrupters, Esau McCaulley and Lisa Fields discuss today's faith doubts and questions, disruption in academic spaces, and the state of evangelism in our current cultural climate.

Co-founder of Christ and Pop Culture Alan Noble believes deeply in the importance of learning how to interact and engage with the culture around us. "We need to talk. We need to have strong communities. We need to have these kind of conversations." Between imperfect mediums and political conflict, Noble explains how distortion and division often run rampant. In this episode of the Disrupters, Esau McCaulley and Alan noble talk truth and technology, postmodern attitudes, and the theologies of power that dominate the church today. Learn more with Noble's book Disruptive Witness: Speaking Truth in a Distracted Age.

We're taking a break this week, but in the meantime, we thought we'd share some of our favorite episodes of The Disrupters and look back on what they meant to us.

"I've honestly learned that nobody is owed the sound of my voice." As the daughter of someone with a significant presence in evangelical circles, author and teacher Jasmine Holmes is familiar with assumptions made about who she is—but she doesn't fit into a mold. In this episode of the Disrupters, Esau McCaulley and Jasmine Holmes dive into stereotypes of race and political ideologies, black womanhood, and the fearless pursuit of God's unique callings on our lives. Get a copy of her book Mother to Son: Letters to a Black Boy on Identity and Hope now.

From fighting stereotypes to redefining isolating spaces, Asian American author Chandra Crane is an expert at disruption. But that doesn't mean it's easy—coming from a multiethnic and multicultural background, she's had to work to complicate oversimplified conversations. "It's actually a blessing to complicate things...It breaks up this conversation which assumes that everybody is either completely privileged or completely oppressed. So I think it pushes back on that and reminds us that we all have pain that needs to be healed and needs to be cared for." In this episode of the Disrupters, Esau McCaulley and Chandra Crane discuss multiethnic identity formation, overlooked stories, and helping to build bridges—without becoming one.  Crane's book Mixed Blessing: Embracing the Fullness of Your Multiethnic Identity is out December 15, available for preorder now.

"There's no end to my learning and growing." From missionary kid in Venezuela to pastor in Chicago, David Swanson's eyes were gradually opened to injustice in his communities. As the white pastor of New Community Covenant Church on the South Side of the city and author of Rediscipling the White Church: From Cheap Diversity to True Solidarity, Swanson has humbly plunged into the multiracial spaces God has called him to. While it would be easy wash his hands of the tension, pain, and criticism that comes with the work of racial reconciliation, he won't: "What do I want to go back to majority white spaces for? What would I want to go be deeply embedded in white evangelicalism for? It's nowhere nearly as good as this is!" In this episode of the Disrupters, Esau McCaulley and David Swanson discuss the tough work and incredible blessings behind shepherding a church body in a multiracial community.

"I was already an extremely empathetic person, but this took it to a new level." Since writer and activist Taylor Schumann, author of forthcoming title ‘When Thoughts and Prayers Aren't Enough: A Shooting Survivor's Journey into the Realities of Gun Violence,' was shot as a social worker in 2013 during a school shooting, she's had to stand up for herself and others who find themselves victims of gun violence. Coming from conservative small-town Virginia, it wasn't easy to become an activist for gun reform—but for Schumann, it's all about her faith. "For me, being more like Jesus is opposing things that are not in line with his vision for us as people on earth—and I cannot picture Jesus walking on the earth carrying an AR-15 down the street." In this episode of the Disrupters, Taylor Schumann and Esau McCaulley discuss the continuing trauma, difficult church spaces, and racial tensions surrounding gun violence.

16th century priest Antonio de Montesinos once said to a group of American Christians: “God gave you the opportunity to share about Jesus and love, and instead you are exploiting it for greed. If you don't repent, God's gonna send you to hell.” This is the first social justice sermon preached in the Americas, one that inspired Robert Romero, author of The Brown Church's, own personal mission. Romero uses his voice to educate people on the history of the Brown Church and the role it has played in the most pivotal moments throughout history. Consistently a voice for the voiceless and a home for the homeless, the Brown Church has much to teach us, if only we would listen.

"Sometimes, you don't think about whether you're going to say something. You know you have to." In 2016, Beth Moore found herself struggling to reconcile the gospel with the church's reaction to a political sea change. "All at the same time, I am watching nationalism, I am watching sexism, and I'm watching racism." "It was like we were being blown back decades. We never made the ground that we needed to make. But I saw us going in reverse instead of making any advancement whatsoever in the gospel role of justice." Beth Moore doesn't write brazen, disruptive books about social issues. Her life's purpose is to study the Bible, and to share the insight and unadulterated joy that comes from God's word. Her latest Bible Study, "Now That Faith Has Come," is a simple, unassuming study of the book of Galatians. But if you wanted her to tip-toe around prominent, controversial social issues, you'd be sorely disappointed. While Moore did little more than speak what she believed the Bible had to say to the American church, that message suddenly became perceived as disruptive to her brothers and sisters in Christ. In this episode of The Disrupters, Esau McCaulley and Beth Moore discuss their shared experiences in the American Church, the ways they've dealt with feedback, and the unmatched clarity they find in the Word of God.

Justin Giboney is fundamentally invested social justice. But he doesn't have to prove that to you. For people who are serious about their Christian faith, there's a stereotype of the political issues that they might be called to address. Justin cares about religious liberty and the sanctity of life. But he also cares about the immigrant, the poor, police reform, and all these other things. Through the AND Campaign, Justin is intentional about how he uses his voice. He asks, "What is the most fruitful way to engage in the work for justice in our society?" He's more concerned about speaking for those that don't have a voice than he is about making his voice heard. Justin Giboney is one of the founders of the And Campaign, and one of the authors of Compassion (&) Conviction: The AND Campaign's Guide to Faithful Civic Engagement.

Lecrae, Grammy award-winning rapper is used to people trying to box him in—as if they could box in a man who lives to tell the truth. In this episode of The Disrupters, Esau McCaulley and Lecrae discuss what it takes to break out of a predetermined box, the backlash the hip-hop artist faced for speaking out about the black experience in Evangelicalism, and his perspective on what it means to deconstruct his faith. Lecrae's latest album is Restoration.

The world is different on the other side of a pandemic. The same kinds people who were ignored are now in the center of the conversation. The question is: when people are ready to listen, what do you have to say?

For African American Christians in the evangelical church, cognitive dissonance is a way of life. As African Americans approach cultural change, there's a long-standing tension between working within mainstream institutions, seeking to provide insight and challenge whenever possible, and then finding their work most effective outside of those institutions. That's where Jemar Tisby finds himself: “I want to be very careful about where I place my voice.” In this final episode of The Disruptors, a conversation between Esau McCaulley, an African-American professor at a majority white institution, and Jemar Tisby, founder and president of The Witness and author of The Color of Compromise, illuminates the dissonance. More importantly, this conversation clearly demonstrates how this tension serves as an ever-present reminder that the racial struggles we face in the American church flow from historical struggles.

Despite the fact that the protection of those who are sexually exploited and abused in the church is of utmost importance, the issue continues to exist because of its very nature. Uncomfortable and unwilling to engage a topic that demands so much introspection of the church, many turn their gaze elsewhere. Ruth Everhart, author of The #MeToo Reckoning: Facing the Church's Complicity in Sexual Abuse and Misconduct, wants us to grapple with the reality on the ground and our role in confronting it. We all have a part to play to make the church a safer space for people.

Immigration hasn't always been as controversial as it is now. In the past, churches seemed to agree that any opportunity to bring the gospel to the foreigner would be welcomed. But in the last several years, Jenny Yang has found herself in the midst of a great transition. So, how has Yang, the Senior Vice President of Advocacy & Policy at World Relief and author of Welcoming the Stranger, coped with the church's moral whiplash? By focusing on reassessing assumptions. “I'm hopeful despite all of this,” says Yang, “because my sense is that this is perhaps a season that's giving us, as a church, time to reflect on what we really believe about the role of the church, not just in ministry but [also in] political engagement.”

For 25 years, Sheila Wise Rowe has counseled trauma and abuse survivors. Many of Rowe's counselees struggle under the weight of history. For those who suffer from racial trauma, history is not an abstract concept; it's re-lived with every racial slight or microaggression. We often choose to remember the good things in our past. We celebrate moments that make us happy, give us purpose, or lift our country up. It can be too easy for those in power to forget the darker moments, like when human beings were exploited for the sake of our country's best interest. But not everyone has the ability to forget. For Sheila Wise Rowe and those she counsels that memory is in their bones.

Within certain Christian communities, there's tremendous pressure to fit within a box, to stay within your lane. Jasmine Holmes, a black Christian mother and author of Mother to Son: Letters to a Black Boy on Identity and Hope, has faced that pressure since she was young.  But through it all, Jasmine fought to make her faith her own. She learned to embrace her identity without falling into pre-written narratives. And she discovered the deep, genuine joy and pain of motherhood in the face of personal upheaval.

At one point, N.T. Wright found himself standing before a sea change. He was guesting on TV talk shows and publishing bestsellers. All in an effort to address what he saw as a disparity between beliefs about Scripture and what Scripture actually says.  Wright has never thought of himself as disruptive, but he admits that others have. He's also happy to disturb the overly comfortable mindset that has come with “shallow readings, which haven't always been accurate.”  “If my work disturbs them,” Wright says, “then Hallelujah.”  His willingness to disturb, however, is secondary to his determination to get Scripture right at all costs and to renew an interest in a book that has become stale to many. His scholarship on Paul, in particular, has both ruffled feathers and awakened a new spiritual passion in many. 

Growing up, Carmen Joy Imes had no idea she'd one day be in an academic setting, lecturing on Old Testament to rooms full of men. Raised in an environment that was skeptical of women teachers, Imes deviated from expectations when she embraced her roles in both the home and classroom. Carmen Imes's mastery of the Old Testament more than justifies this incidental rebellion. Her love for the subject is evident, and her familiarity with it is undeniable. While her presence may make some uncomfortable, her unapologetic passion combined with her emphasis on the Old Testament's place in Christian theology deeply influence her students and their scholarship.

Was it nature or nurture that led Dominique DuBois Gilliard to write Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores? Probably both. From his years in the historical black church to his personal encounters with police, Gilliard seemed fated to sound the alarm about the issue of mass incarceration. However, he would soon learn that the best way to gain an audience was with steady, measured allusion to what is.  Dominique DuBois Gilliard's goal isn't to force others to understand the depths of his trauma but rather to ensure no one else has to experience it. And for Gilliard, the only way that happens is through the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Let's say you've written a book about a passion of yours. To you, and everyone else's surprise, it's a huge hit. Now, the thing you loved has become a “fad.” What do you do next?  Nothing new. For author and anglican priest, Tish Harrison Warren, it's the unchanging tradition that makes liturgy disruptive.  In this conversation Tish and Esau talk about the remarkably life-changing (and life-stabilizing) ways that taking part in liturgical rhythms have saved them from themselves and disrupted the cultural scripts we live in.  Because when everything changes, you need something to stay the same.

Sho Baraka, a rapper and creative, came out of a Christian music scene that felt safe at best and restrictive at worst. Sho felt an ever-present evangelical gaze looking over his shoulder, critiquing him and his work. Eventually, Sho decided it wasn't worth the cost—of his creativity, of his hopes, of himself. But the more Sho poured himself into his work, the more he disrupted his career. His music became too controversial for Christian retail outlets and youth groups playlists. In an attempt to evade the evangelical edit, Sho took on the responsibilities of a traditional record label himself. While personal branding and creative salesmanship may be problematic at times, for Sho, it was the natural, and only, next step. Anyone can be a revolutionary, but you still gotta pay your bills. Visit Sho Baraka's website at www.barakaology.com. Follow him on Twitter: @AmIshoBaraka. The Disrupters is produced by CT Creative Studio in partnership with InterVarsity Press.  The Disrupters is hosted by Esau McCaulley. Visit his website at esaumccaulley.com. Follow him on Twitter: @esaumccaulley.

The gospel led them into disruption. They told the truth, and the truth set the world on edge. This isn't a podcast for cynics or apologists. It's bound to disappoint you. And that's it. That's the pitch. The Disruptors is hosted by Esau McCaulley and features a series of disruptive conversations with Sho Baraka, Tish Harrison Warren, Jemar Tisby, N.T. Wright, Sheila Wise Rowe, Dominique DuBois Gilliard, and more.