Podcast appearances and mentions of dominique dubois gilliard

This season we are focusing on justice as an aspect of spiritual formation and we believe Lent to be the perfect season to explore this connection. Using A Just Passion: A Six-Week Lenten Journey, and the lectionary, we will look at various aspects of justice, its importance to God and why the modern church has often regrettably failed to live out God's call to “do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with the Lord.”   In week one, Ruth brings back Transforming Center team member Tina Harris, and guest Dominique DuBois Gilliard to look at the theme of confession. The three discuss the relational nature of justice, how our silence, inaction, and indifference to injustice breeds relational death, how our privilege can keep us disconnected from the pain of others and more.    Lectionary scripture for this week: Genesis 2:15-17; 3:1-7 Psalm 32 Romans 5:12-19 Matthew 4:1-11   Mentioned in this episode: Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores by Dominique DuBois Gilliard Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege by Dominique DuBois Gilliard   Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice(LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, and Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege. Dominique has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland as an ordained minister. Dominique earned an MDiv from North Park Theological Seminary, where he currently serves as an adjunct professor teaching courses in the fields of Christian ethics, theology, missiology, and reconciliation.   Journey with us this Lent! Our season is inspired by A Just Passion: A Six-Week Lenten Journey, and many of our guests are contributors to this resource.    Music Credit: Kingdom Come by Aaron Niequist The Way of the Cross from Lent Music in Solitude   Support the podcast! This season, in addition to receiving overflow conversation from the episode, patrons at all levels will receive weekly reflection questions intended to help them journey through Lent with both the podcast and the resource A Just Passion! Become a patron today by visiting our Patreon page!   The Transforming Center exists to create space for God to strengthen leaders and transform communities. You are invited to join our next Transforming Community:® A Two-year Spiritual Formation Experience for Leaders.  Delivered in nine quarterly retreats, this practice-based learning opportunity is grounded in the conviction that the best thing you bring to leadership is your own transforming self!

Dominique DuBois Gilliard joins Pastor Moore and Pastor Jeff for a conversation on his latest book, Subversive Witness. The three cover a wide range of important topics for all followers of Jesus to consider when it comes to wise stewardship of the privileges that we have been given. Dominique is the director for racial righteousness and justice for the Evangelical Covenant Church. Follow at: https://dominiquegilliard.com/ Twitter: @DDGilliard

A preview of our conversation with Dominique DuBois Gilliard and his book Subversive Witness: Scriptures Call to Leveraging our Privilege.

While preparing the way for the Lord, John the Baptist declares, "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Many have failed to do this, in part, because repentance has become diluted. Rather than truly turning away from sin--back to God--we often equate repentance with a mere oral confession. This domesticated, unbiblical understanding of repentance bears no fruit and lacks the power to transform broken people, relationships, systems, and structures. Our lack of repentance conforms us to the patterns of this world, keeping us content amid sinful inequities, complicit with systemic injustice, and apathetic in oppressive context. Privilege is largely a social consequence of our unwillingness to reckon with and turn from sin. Scripture repeatedly affirms that privilege is real and declares that, rather than exploiting it for selfish gain or feeling immobilized by it, Christians have an opportunity to steward privilege and a responsibility to leverage it to further the kingdom and sacrificially love our neighbors. In Subversive Witness, read how Dominique DuBois Gilliard... x highlights biblical examples of privileged people who understood this kingdom call x casts a new vision for faithful participation in the inbreaking kingdom as co-laborers with Christ x leads the church to grapple with privilege, indifference, and systemic sin in new ways x uses Scripture to elucidate how privilege emerges from sin, is sustained by our hardened hearts, and keeps us complicit with oppression x demonstrates that Christians can wield privilege as an instrument to pursue justice and further the Kingdom x details Scripture's subversive call to leverage, and at times forsake, privilege to sacrificially love our neighbors, enact systemic change, and advance the kingdom of God Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC's “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC's ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. Gilliard earned a bachelor's degree in African American Studies from Georgia State University and a master's degree in history from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. He also earned an MDiv from North Park Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor teaching Christian ethics, theology, and reconciliation.

In this episode of We Are Vineyard, Dominique Gilliard shares about his role of pastoring pastors in the work of making connections between scripture, discipleship, and our call to be ambassadors of reconciliation. He and Jay talk about the role of justice work and racial righteousness in the church, and the Biblical evidence for the marriage of evangelism and justice. Dominique discusses diversity as a revelatory gift from God, some challenging and practical questions to ask if your church is seeking to be a truly multiethnic church, and the work he is doing to provide resources for pastors to engage this conversation from a Biblical perspective. Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine's 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard's latest book, Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege won Englewood Review of Books 2021 book of the year award. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary in its School of Restorative Arts and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” Earlier this year, Gilliard received North Park Theological Seminary's Distinguished Alumni Award. Show Notes: Subversive Witness website https://www.zondervan.com/p/subversive-witness/ Subversive Witness video-based small group curriculum https://vimeo.com/ondemand/subversivewitness Rethinking Incarceration https://www.ivpress.com/rethinking-incarceration Rethinking Incarceration video-based small groups curriculum https://seminarynow.com/programs/rethinking-incarceration Sankofa https://covchurch.org/mercy-justice/sankofa/ Justice Journey for Kids curriculum https://covchurch.org/make-and-deepen-disciples/children/justicejourney/ Kingdom Mosaic Bible Study Series https://covchurch.org/resource/the-kingdom-mosaic-life-together-series/ Socials: Vineyardusa.org @vineyardUSA dominiquegilliard.com Dominique's Instagram: @DominiqueDGilliard Dominique's Twitter: @DDGilliard

Throughout the Old and New Testaments, the Bible tells stories of people using their status to subvert the status quo and serve their neighbor. Dominique DuBois Gillard, author of Subversive Witness, joins us to talk about how Scripture and the gospel call followers of Jesus to use privilege to sacrificially love their neighbors, enact systemic change, and grow more Christlike as citizens of God's kingdom.Get the book: Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage PrivilegeWatch IFBR's 2020 webinar, which Dominique participated in: How The Bible's Story Helps Us Talk About RacismThe Institute for Bible Reading is a nonprofit ministry. Support our work, including the production of The Bible Reset podcast, by joining ChangeMakers: https://instituteforbiblereading.org/changemakers/

This month's bonus episode is on the ways that middle- and upper-class churches often function in ways that exclude poor people and reinforce classist structures. We also talk about how to operate congregations more in line with God's vision for the Church. Jonathan couldn't make this one, but we have Gabrielle Apollon back on the show as a guest host. We have a lot of really helpful tips and personal stories in this one. Enjoy! Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show at KTFPress.com. Hosts  Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter. Gabrielle Apollon — follow her on Twitter. Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  Production and editing by Sy Hoekstra. Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to shakethedust@ktfpress.com and we may answer your question on a future episode. TranscriptSuzie Lahoud: Can we also just throw out this heretical lie that people suffer financially, chronically because they're lazy? Because they don't work hard and are therefore less righteous. That is such a lie. In fact, I feel like the people I know who are the most hardworking, who deal with levels of stress and exhaustion, unlike anything I've seen any of my middle-class or upper-middle-class friends struggle with, those are people who come from low-income backgrounds. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust: leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God. A podcast of KTF Press. My name is Sy Hoekstra. I am here as usual with Suzie Lahoud. Jonathan could not make it because of just some scheduling issues that came up. So today we have with us a guest host, and previous guest of the show. Welcome back Gabrielle Apollon. Gabrielle Apollon: Hello.  Sy Hoekstra: We are so happy to have you back. For those of you who don't remember, Gabrielle is, A, my wife [laughter]. And B, a human rights attorney who works at NYU Law in the Global Justice Clinic, former immigration attorney, all-around boss. And today we are going to be talking about classism in the church. So before we get started, real quick, as always, thank you for subscribing. This is a subscriber only bonus episode. Please remember, if you don't, do follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @KTFPress. It is very helpful when you do that. When you show other people, when people look at our little profile and they see that you follow it and they're your friend, it's good for us. That makes us look good, and we really appreciate your support in that way. Follow us on your podcast player, give us a rating and review, and I think those are all of my usual entreaties to you. So let's just get started and jump right into the conversation. So let's just talk some basic ways that churches exclude low-income people from daily operations or make it difficult for poor people to participate in church community. Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. So I guess I'll just jump right in. And full disclosure, I feel like the two contexts that I'm most familiar with and will be sort of speaking from, are one, having spent my college years in the Bible Belt in the South. So that context of church where I feel like one of the major cultural barriers that I saw, was even just this basic idea of Sunday best, and people getting dressed up. I remember going to one church and it was like everyone was just wearing J. Crew or Lilly Pulitzer [laughter]. And just wondering, if someone just wandered into this church or didn't have the means to dress in that specific way, I felt self-conscious coming over as a missionary kid who had no sense of fashion.  And how would that make someone who didn't come from that same socioeconomic background, even that same culture, how would they feel walking through the doors of that church? Would that be a barrier to entry? I think it would be, again, even speaking for myself, I felt less comfortable in that space. It felt like there was a uniform that you had to wear that I didn't have access to. So that, it's a very simple thing, and sort of more on the surface.  But then the second context that I'm familiar with, is having lived in Lebanon for seven and a half years and my husband and I were a part of, and actually still technically are members of a church in Lebanon. I have to say, the Lebanese church as a whole is an amazing case study for this in the way that a number of churches, there was sort of a movement of responding to refugees coming across the border from Syria and watching churches struggle with this idea of wanting to incorporate or not wanting to incorporate Syrians into their congregations. One of the tensions there was just, to be honest, when you have folks who are living in tents in the Beqaa Valley, or living in unfinished apartment buildings or living in attics or basements, these are folks who also don't have access to regular running water. They can't afford to spend a lot of money on personal hygiene items. So honestly, one of the complaints that we would get a lot from folks is, “I don't want them in my church, in my pews because they smell. They don't smell good.” And that was just a very simple, real thing, but it just made me so sad. Like we shouldn't even be talking about that. That shouldn't even be an issue. Why would we keep people out of church for that reason?  Also, it upset me because the assumption was that that was a problem because they had poor hygiene habits, when really it was a problem because these people all are fighting for their lives every single day. They are struggling to feed their kids. They're struggling to literally have a roof over their heads, and for them taking a shower is not an easy, simple thing like it is for you and me. They're living practically outdoors in these tents. So I think just the lack of understanding and sort of compassion and empathy that a question like that, or a barrier like that, that we've created, I think it shows a really ugly side of us that is not in keeping with the teachings of Christ.  One thing that one of my mentors in Lebanon used to remind us a lot, his name is Rupen Das. He wrote an amazing book called Compassion and the Mission of God. He would always remind us that when Christ was preaching, if you imagine Jesus teaching the Sermon on the Mount, he's speaking to a population that 90 percent of them were most likely, based on historical records, living in poverty at the time. So I think the final point that I want to sort of touch on, is that another barrier we see in the church is not just who do you allow through the doors? Who do you allow to participate in your community? What are the expectations in terms of how they dress, how they smell? But also, are there barriers to them being in leadership?  Because I think if we understand the context in which Christ preached the kingdom and carried out his ministry and the people who were involved in his ministry, I think we need to understand that a lot of times it is folks who come from low-income backgrounds, who are actually experiencing real levels of poverty, who are most equipped and qualified to understand the teachings of Christ and to understand the kingdom of God, and to allow us to understand it. And how many of those folks, if you look at your church, are actually in leadership? How many of those folks are you asking to lead Bible studies?  And if you're not doing that, if you're not realizing that they actually have more to give than even receive, I think a lot of times when we welcome them into our church, we're like, “Oh, well, this is a charity case.” Sy Hoekstra: Look at us and how great we are. Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. We're going to let them in and be nice to them because we're good Christians and we want other people to see that we're good Christians and we can help them. And that, I think that's such a wrong model because again, it's the upside-down model of the kingdom that shows that actually those are the folks that are going to understand what this is really all about on levels that you, in your middle-class comfortable lifestyle, cannot even grasp. So you need to be willing to sit at their feet and listen to the things that they have to teach you and watch them live out their faith.  I think that when you're not willing to do that, when you don't see that representation, again, even in your leadership, in terms of who is teaching the word and shaping your understanding of the gospel, I think that's actually a form of prosperity gospel. Because I think the subtle assumption there is that if you were a real follower of Christ, you would be living a comfortable middle-class lifestyle or even an upper middle-class or wealthy lifestyle. And again, I don't, I think that's heresy.  Gabrielle Apollon: I appreciate what you mentioned, just so much of it, but especially what you just said about the prosperity gospel, because I think that we often just talk about just how the prosperity gospel kind of, in it's most explicit forms, exploits poor people and capitalizes on the very real needs and manipulates it by incorporating all sorts of stuff related to faith, and what it means to believe and what it means to give. All of those things, but I think that there are so many different subtle versions of the prosperity gospel, or really ways that we exploit poor people or exclude them, that I think should also be talked about.  I think that if we don't talk about issues of class and make a space, a safe space, for people of different classes, then you are actually harming people. It becomes like a potential place of harm because as you mentioned, there's this like air that we breathe, and there's the stigma about poverty that is kind of in all of our, I think, world and all of our cultures, and it winds up in church. And if, unless we're discipled out of that, as I think we have to be discipled out of white supremacy and other things, then we remain steeped in that and we perpetuate it in our churches in various ways. So we either often look the same as the world in this way or sometimes we look worse in our kind of homogenized bubbles and left to our own devices.  I think, you mentioned these issues and when people were actually in the door. When refugees were in the churches in Lebanon, but I think there are so many things we do that stops people from even thinking that these people can come into these spaces. Or I'll just speak for myself and just share a little bit of the context that I come from. So I grew up with very little money, I guess comparatively, in terms of, our family was undocumented for quite some time as I've mentioned in the other podcast. So money was a very real struggle for a long time.  Then I, but I went to a private school and so I was very much kind of in between different worlds in high school, and then went to Columbia for college. So very different world there [laughter] to put it lightly, but also in the churches. The churches that I started going to in New York City and on the Upper West Side, the vast majority of the people who went there are well-to-do. And knowing kind of my background and knowing, you know, we were homeless for a little bit and bouncing from home to home, and having that context and hearing the messages and hearing the assumptions that were made in a lot of spaces, but even in sermons, really made me, I think, think twice sometimes about who can I invite into the space.  Sy and I have a few examples of sometimes we would invite homeless people there and sometimes it was like really embarrassing, the types of examples and…  Sy Hoekstra: Should we talk about that video? Gabrielle Apollon: Yeah, go ahead.  Sy Hoekstra: Oh, okay. I'll do it. Yeah, sure. There was one homeless man in particular, he came to church with us and the moment we sat down, we were a little bit late, so we missed the first couple of worship songs or whatever. The moment we sat down, we had a video come on the big screen, and it's a couple from the church talking about how they actually had moved to New York City in order to be a part of this church that we were in. And they just kept going on about how big and lovely their apartment or house was in wherever they came from before they moved to New York City, and how they had sacrificed so much to come and live in this somewhat smaller apartment in New York City [laughs].  That was the first thing that happened when we walked in with this man. He actually liked the service overall and the message from the pastor and everything. But it was just an immediate like, “Hi, hello. Welcome here sir, this church is not for you.” That isn't to say that we shouldn't talk about sacrifices that people make. I just think we need to put them in their proper context and not sort of glorify the relatively small sacrifices that people who have enough money for food and shelter and everything make, and put… you know like Jesus did with the widow who puts the two coins into the offering, instead of the rich person who puts way more in, and Jesus makes it very clear, that person is the sacrifice that I care about.  They've sacrificed more. You need to take that context into account. And if you don't, I think you are missing the way that Jesus sees things. Suzie, in light of what you said, I was just thinking camel through the eye of a needle [laughs] it's going to be one of the main texts you're looking at if you're thinking about how Jesus actually thinks about these issues.  Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Gabrielle Apollon: Yeah. It just, I think it's a good example of like what does either the invisibilization of someone's experience, or just not even crossing people's minds, what does that communicate to people who are in very, very different situations. And how is that harmful or not? And the verse that came to mind was, in 1 Corinthians 11, we often hear the verse about communion and whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. And that's something people are like, “Oh, examine your heart before you take communion” and whatnot. But the context of that story I think is, one, I think it's quite telling that we don't ever… Sy Hoekstra: Talk about the context of that story? Yeah. Gabrielle Apollon: …use this context when we discuss this. But the context is, Paul is critiquing the church because they are having the Lord's Supper, celebrating the Lord's Supper, and rich people are coming in with all their yummy food and alcohol, and the poor people are watching them eat because they didn't have anything to bring. And he is chastising them. He's saying, he literally says, “Your meetings do more harm than good,” and is calling people to examine themselves in light of this disparity. He, I think he literally says, making people feel like they are nothing and humiliating them, and that's obviously, some people are like, “Oh, that's kind of a strong example, we would never do that.”  But what do we do when we aren't acknowledging these differences and we're not acknowledging… and acknowledging or differentiating people's responses to the gospel? Like I often was like, “Wow, why can't we just acknowledge this illustration or something is related to a certain context, and just make that explicit and acknowledge that might not actually align with your context or whatnot?” And it always felt like, am I asking for too much? Am I asking people to consider all these people who might not even be in the pews? But one, I think we, again are discipling people as to how to think about issues of class, even if they're middle-class or upper-middle class.  But two, I've seen it done well. I've seen people, and actually this church we're checking out, I've just appreciated Renaissance because even as they do a sermon series about money, it's not just like, “Yeah, everybody, you need to give,” but they're actually like, “Okay, if you are struggling financially, here's what we, we have a Deacons' Fund. Please use it.” They're recognizing that not everybody is in the same place, and it just feels like, oh, I'm seen, I'm heard. And it doesn't mean that none of the other stuff could apply to you, but it means that you're acknowledging that this is a reality that matters.  It's a reality that deserves to be talked about and not just in a separate announcement. Because we often do that, where it's like outside of the sermon and you're like, “Oh yeah, if you need money let us know.” But we don't integrate it in our discipleship or in our teachings. And I think that that really does matter. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Shout out to pastor Jordan Rice and Renaissance Church, doing a good job talking about money.  Suzie Lahoud: Love that. Sy Hoekstra: I was going to say, I think like when Gabrielle, when you and I were talking a little bit about this beforehand, we talked about that verse in James, where James says not to show favoritism to the wealthy people in a congregation. And I think the example he gives, he mentions like reserving good seats for them in the… is that true? Am I wrong about that [laughs]?  Gabrielle Apollon: Yeah. I think it's like letting them be up front or giving them some prominent space.  Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Sy Hoekstra: I probably should have looked this up [laughs], but that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is, I think we want to think about classism a little bit like the way that white people often think about racism. Like it has to be this overt thing. It has to be, oh, you rich people come sit up here in the places of honor, and you poor people go and sit in the back, like segregation. And that's what classism is. And we don't as often think about it in terms of, Suzie, like you were saying, saying I don't want people in my congregation because I don't like the way they smell, that is, that's the same thing. That's showing favoritism to people who live indoors and have running water and can afford deodorant. You know what I mean? It's the same thing, it's just done in a more roundabout way.  In a similar way, what you were just saying about the verses about communion Gabrielle, the incredible thing that I think so many churches have done, is allowed kind of the world around them to segregate for us so that we don't have to do it directly. So many of those churches are just, they just live in wealthy neighborhoods. They just, the sermon illustrations they give are all about, are from a perspective of somebody who has money, and the services and the community gatherings they offer are for people with money. They go on expensive retreats and they, maybe they provide scholarships, but maybe they're not enough. Or maybe the ways of getting it are a little opaque. Or maybe the people you have to talk to aren't the safest people to talk to about your financial circumstances or whatever. I think we just do all of those little subtle things, and then manage to pull that verse out of context and make it about sitting there and contemplating whether or not you got angry at your coworker. Like that's the thing that you have to repent of before you go and take communion and not whether or not you are doing an injustice in your community in the eyes of the Lord. Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. Gabrielle Apollon: Suzie, I mean, I think this feels like an extreme response and I don't think you can, or extreme example, and I don't think you can completely chalk all of this to colonialism and this culture that we export through missionary culture. But I do think that it is connected. I recall, so my family is from Haiti. I had gone to Haiti after the earthquake and was there with kind of a, like a Cru, a mission trip like thing, which, plenty to say about that, but that's okay [laughs]. And we're talking, we were inviting people to this church that was run by Haitians in this particular area that had been hit by the earthquake.  And this woman was sharing with us, she didn't feel like she could go to church because she didn't have, she had lost all of her things and had none of her good clothes to go to church with. And it was one of those things where you're like, well, that's definitely not what the gospel should look like. As a Haitian, I can say there's plenty, there's so much class stuff also just within our country and our communities. But I do think there's something about the religious kind of culture that we export that says people have to look a certain way, and like you mentioned Suzie, Sunday's best, right?  But what does that look like when you are in extraordinarily dire situations also, and there are these huge barriers that come up that logically should be like, okay, of course you should, even if you've lost everything, God definitely wants you to go to church and it doesn't matter what you… or meet him in one way or another, and it doesn't matter what you wear, but it's a very different thing when that has been inculcated for decades or sometimes centuries within your community. Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. And what I didn't even realize at the time, again, going to, so dropping little missionary kid, Suzie from Uzbekistan into the Bible Belt. And I didn't realize there's an actual theology around it, that you're right, absolutely gets exported. Because again, I did experience similar strains of theology in Lebanon that you are dishonoring God if you can't dress nicely on Sunday, if you can't show up clean. So I sort of laughed it off before, but I didn't realize that really it's become a theological understanding that then you can judge other people by. To go back to those barriers, so again, that's just one that is so horrific. But it's, back to your point to Sy about location, I think thinking about the location of your church, if it's in a suburb, especially in the US where we have red lining and all of these things, and like you said, society has done a lot of this dividing for us in a really ugly way. But also, do people have access to your church through public transportation? Because that's a thing too. And again something I saw in the US and in Lebanon, can people get to your meetings if they don't have a car? Like, that's a very basic thing that I think creates a barrier. So I just wanted to circle back to that, just because I think these are really practical things that churches should be thinking through. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I appreciate that. We talked about, Gabrielle and I, this one group we were in, where it was a bunch of relatively wealthy people and then there was one poor homeless woman in it. And they just kept, when we would do worship, telling people, “I emailed you all the song lyrics, bring them up on your phones.” It's like, and she didn't have a smartphone. So we kept trying to get people to print out lyrics and people just wouldn't do it. It was weird, but that's the kind of thing, like access to technology is a big thing. Like if everything about your church service or the, I don't know, the ways that you register for things, all your processes, if you're different kinds of like online video calls or whatever.  If all that stuff just requires someone to have some expensive piece of technology and internet access, you need to provide those things. And I'm not saying don't use technology. The same as you're not saying, don't use cars. Just, like, carpool. You have to figure out a way to normalize helping people out and to not make, to make your community safe enough that people aren't afraid to ask for those things, that it's not weird when you offer those things. All that kind of stuff has to be taken into account. Suzie Lahoud: Yeah.  Gabrielle Apollon: Yeah. Well, and the reality is oftentimes it can be less convenient, right? Like speaking of the car situation, like growing up, we didn't have a car for a long time and it was truly only because people from church would come and pick us up and take us to church. And sometimes we didn't live… Sy Hoekstra: And school. Gabrielle Apollon: Yeah. Oh yeah, and school. And sometimes we didn't live in convenient areas and that required somebody to get up even earlier on a Sunday morning and come get us. That stuff's not always, obviously, I feel like it's stating the obvious, that's not always fun. That's not always easy, but it enabled us to have access to these communities and this space that we wouldn't have had otherwise.  Yeah, I think I've definitely seen this stuff not go well, like Sy mentioned, or not work out in the best ways, but I've also seen, like I have this just very distinct memory. So we talked about what happened when we brought, we invited a homeless guy to church, kind of here in New York. I studied abroad in Paris for a little bit and was part of a church there. And I did not expect this I think, but I just invited this guy who I saw on the street on my way to church to come to church with me. I was like, “Oh, there's coffee.” So I'm pretty sure he came mostly for the coffee [laughs] and food. But the way that I saw that church kind of wrap themselves around him and like it wasn't, once he got there and… you know, I left after a few months because I was in study abroad, but I was able to see through social media and just staying in touch how they continued to support him. And he actually became an integral part of that community. It's sad that I actually don't think I expected that.  Often you're like, “Okay, well, I've got to figure this out. I've got to figure out if I'm going to invite him to lunch afterwards. And that, a lot of that onus kind of feels on you sometimes, but to see a whole community gather together and actually embrace somebody in when it's not the easiest thing sometimes. And like you said, when there are challenges or they're not coming from the same place as you, is so cool and such an example I think, of God's love in an incredibly powerful way.  I think what you said before, Suzie, is also really important just to keep in mind, that like yeah, not everybody's a project. But to see what people can do when they do actually bring somebody in and treat them as part of the community and not different, or like you said, a charity case, is really cool. Sy Hoekstra: Can we talk a little bit about specifically the issue of sharing money? So you've mentioned the Deacons' Fund, Gabrielle. But there are obviously many verses and stories in the Bible about the people of God sharing resources in all kinds of ways that are pretty foreign to a lot of wealthy Western churches nowadays. How does the process of sharing resources and sharing money, even though it's ostensibly for the benefit of anyone in the congregation who needs it, how do we do that in ways that are harmful and exclusive?  Gabrielle Apollon: I mean, I think one thing that comes to mind, and it's really the Deacons' Fund, but it's also related to other ministries, like financial counseling, which is ostensibly good and important, but there are lots of, I would say maybe sometimes non-biblical, but lots of kind of white middle-class norms that people are also exporting through that. So I know for me, like I actually, I've had good financial counselors and I also had someone who yelled at me when I was basically explaining how it was a non-negotiable that I had to send money to my family in light of their circumstances. And that just didn't make sense or compute to them in what they thought was financially responsible. Yes, there were other financial needs, but there was also like, my family needed to have money to pay rent. That was something that a lot of people aren't used to, whether it's children of, like adult children or people they're like, “Oh, you shouldn't be responsible for that.” It's like, all right, well, I'm glad you can say that.  Sy Hoekstra: But I am though. Gabrielle Apollon: [laughs] It's just, yeah, this was just my reality. And what does it mean for, whether it's like family support or even support to you, if people restrict that because they're like, “No, that's not exactly what this is for,” and you're like, “Okay, well then I guess I'll have to figure this out myself,” even though there's definitely money there.  Sy Hoekstra: I think another way that that particular issue manifests itself is like, there are restrictions on how you can, how the church can give money. So saying like I can give money to members of the church, people who attend the church or whatever, but if the families of the members who live somewhere else, or aren't a part of the church need money, that's not who this money is for. Which ignores that same reality. It's like, okay, but I as a member of the church, I'm responsible for these people, even though it's my aunt or my grandmother or my cousin or my mom or whatever.  Those things, those are people who in my community and from my background, I am responsible for and I'm going to pay for this thing for them, whether or not you reimburse me or I have to use a credit card or whatever. So if you want to help me with this, you can, and then a lot of churches just say, “No, that's not what this is for.” You know what I mean? Like that kind of tight demarcating of the boundaries of where your money that you're giving out as a church can go, really runs along lines of white middle-class ideas of who people should and shouldn't be responsible for and how we should be using our money to, as little island individuals, make sure that we are not ever a financial burden upon anyone else or the system or whatever.  Then I also think, like I was at a church, I lived in Chicago for a year and I went to this church that had mostly middle-class and wealthy people in it, except for this one guy who my roommate and I were friends with, who was pretty low-income and was living in a shelter. He would show up really consistently and he would always be super helpful with helping set up and tear down, and was a kind of integral part of the Sunday mornings. He was, I don't know what he was involved in more broadly in the church, but he was always around and he needed help because he was poor, but he didn't just need help one time.  Like he, I think a lot of times when we run these Deacons' Funds or whatever, we expect to help somebody one time with a rent check they can't pay or whatever. But he had ongoing needs because he was not a middle-class person. That's just how it is. And the people who ran the Deacons' Fund just didn't understand this. Like did not know how to deal with somebody who kept coming back and asking for the church to meet his needs over and over again. And they couldn't deal with just dismissing him I think, as irresponsible, or somebody who hadn't taken advantages of the meritocracy of America or whatever it was that they believed.  And they just, they were frustrated with him all the time. He in turn then got frustrated with them. They wouldn't understand sometimes the urgency of some of his needs. They would promise him some money, but they wouldn't give it when they said they would, or somebody who needed to give him a check wasn't at church one Sunday, and I saw him get really frustrated about that. And it just created so much tension, because this was an entire church of people who had never seriously interacted with anyone poor for any long amount of time and didn't know how to handle their needs. I think that is, it was just this really interesting case for me of somebody making that reality so plain, just by continuing to show up in a place where I think a lot of people thought he didn't belong. Suzie Lahoud: Gosh. Yeah. Sorry, as you're sharing that story Sy, I just can imagine what maybe some of those conversations looked like. And it just reminds me of even doing relief work in Lebanon, something that comes up a lot is this idea of dependency, and you don't want people to become dependent. And that just makes me so angry [laughs], because I feel like it shows such a fundamental lack of understanding for the fact that… I mean one, as human beings, none of us is completely independent. Even as a middle-class person, you are dependent on someone, and if you're not dependent on someone, you're dependent on systems that you take for granted that prop you up.  And I think just the lack of compassion and just basic understanding for folks who do have ongoing needs, and that doesn't mean that they're taking advantage of your generosity. That doesn't mean that they're lazy and not doing the work. Sy, I feel like that maybe provided a segue to a point that I just want to make sure it gets hammered home which is, can we also just throw out this heretical lie that people suffer financially, chronically because they're lazy. Because they don't work hard and are therefore less righteous. Like that is such a lie. In fact, I feel like the people I know who are the most hardworking, who deal with levels of stress and exhaustion unlike anything I've seen any of my middle-class or upper-middle-class friends struggle with, those are people who come from low-income backgrounds.  Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely. Suzie Lahoud: You don't even understand the levels of like working multiple jobs and not having a car. Having to take care of your kids and work at the same time. Like all of these struggles that people face, and then we call them lazy? In the church? That just, that's outrageous to me. So all that to say, and I think it goes back to this point that I think you brought up earlier Gabrielle, but I know it's something that we also wanted to bring up in this conversation, which is, and I think I was touching on this a little bit earlier as well, representation in your church leadership of folks from low-income backgrounds and different cultural backgrounds.  Because I think socioeconomic cultures are real, so class cultures are real, but then also different cultural backgrounds of, Gabrielle, you mentioned coming from a Haitian family. And then with my husband's Lebanese family, we talked before about how I've struggled with finding good marriage books. Because yes, money is a part of marriage, and the expectations around where your money goes, it's not going to always follow these WASPy models and norms that you were just touching on Sy. So all that to say, you need to have folks represented in your leadership from these different backgrounds who understand those dynamics so you don't fall into the pitfalls that Sy, you were just alluding to.  Because you need to admit the limits of your own understanding if you don't come from that background. If you've never had those struggles before you probably are going to miss it, and that's going to do damage and do harm. So the best thing you can do is have people on your staff who do understand that. I think that also gets to some of the favoritism you were touching on Sy, that obviously the book of James talks about. Where a lot of times I feel like elders are appointed also based on how much money they can give to the church. I feel like I've seen this happen in a lot of churches, that you are seen as a “pillar in the church,” and not just because of your moral disposition or the model that you are of faith, but also I think sometimes based on the size of a check you can write to support the church budget. Sy Hoekstra: You're a financial pillar. Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, exactly.  Sy Hoekstra: You're a giant stack of money pillar [laughter]. Suzie Lahoud: And I'm sorry, that is favoritism. That is favoritism. Just because you can write a bigger check, God bless you for doing that. God bless you for investing your money in the church, but that doesn't always mean that you should have the biggest say in where the money from that check goes. And you need to be okay with that as the giver and the church needs to be okay with that and to understand that. Sorry, go ahead Sy.  Sy Hoekstra: No, I was just going to say, I think that implies that people who do have a lot of money and are giving a lot of money to the church, because the default culture is to sort of honor you, it's kind of on you to say, to understand that you're wielding a lot of power and to not use it on your own behalf. It is up to you to then leverage, like we were talking about with Dominique DuBois Gilliard, talking about leveraging privilege. That's something that you should be doing on behalf of other people, and it's not something you should be doing for yourself. You should be making that clear to the staff, I do not want you kind of bending to my whims because I'm somebody who pays your salary and your rent and whatever.  On that track, can we talk a little bit before we end, about how churches can do better in this area? We've given some examples, but any more final thoughts?  Gabrielle Apollon: I do have one thing just to say about something Suzie mentioned earlier. Which you mentioned the systems of injustice and inequality that have affected how much people have. It's amazing to me, I don't know how many years I've been in church now. I think, well, yeah, I basically grew up in the church, but this recent sermon series about money that Renaissance did, I think was the first time that in a series about money, I ever heard a pastor say, yes, the realities of inequality and injustice and racism actually do impact who has the money and who doesn't. I was like, huh, it's amazing that this is the first time I've ever heard that. And that was not hard to do. It's just acknowledging these realities and making things more plain, I think in speaking truth to the situation. As opposed to being like, okay, what do I need to say just to make sure everyone is more generous and not thinking about people's very stark experiences with whether it's discrimination or racism or inequality that really matter and that really have impacts on people's lives. So yes, we should go to examples of things that are good, but that one I was just encouraged by was like, oh yes, you can do this. This is not hard to actually just make plain to people.  Sy Hoekstra: Well, I mean, that is one example. That's great.  Suzie Lahoud: Yeah. I mean, I think I should go back and say too because I, by the way, Gabrielle, I love that you always come with the positive examples. I think that's so good and so beautiful and so helpful. Because I feel like I tend to hammer home like the critique and the negative examples [laughs].  Gabrielle Apollon: They're both real. Suzie Lahoud: No, but I just think that's so beautiful. So thank you for bringing that piece consistently. I should say, going back to the example of churches in Lebanon, I learned so much from watching Lebanese churches grapple with the struggles of trying to incorporate a population that comes from a different socioeconomic background, a different cultural background, coming from traumatic experiences of war, that also I should say, a lot of Lebanese folks could also relate to from their own past. But watching that struggle, I learned so much and I think there is beauty in the struggle. I think one of the things I want to get across is, it's worth diving into the messiness of this. Sy Hoekstra: Because it will be messy. Suzie Lahoud: Yeah, it will get messy. And I think that's also one, that needs to be one of the things that you're willing to do, is to allow it to get messy. To allow it to loosen your grip on quote-unquote “church order,” that really is just WASPy norms that we've wrapped the church in. Even around, again as you were saying Sy, like how we manage our finances as a church, all these things, you need to allow it to get messy, and you need to… Okay, I hesitate to say this because I don't want people to hear this the wrong way. But you will make mistakes and you need to be okay with that, and you need to know how to learn from your mistakes in a healthy way. Sy Hoekstra: Which doesn't mean ignore the ramifications of your mistakes or don't go back and apologize and fix things. Yeah. Gabrielle Apollon: Right. Suzie Lahoud: Exactly. Yes. Because what I don't want to do is justify the harm that churches cause, but I think, and I say this because our church and churches that we partnered with made mistakes. And a lot of it came from not understanding people's situations. Even basic things like having meals together as a church and people coming and hoarding food, and all of a sudden it becomes like a free-for-all. Having close to riots breaking out at one of our first distributions of trying to provide assistance to people, people that we also wanted to feel free to come and be a part of the church.  There were just different dynamics and we made mistakes and had to learn, but at the same time, we got to have fellowship with folks that we wouldn't have had fellowship with otherwise. One thing that I really loved that we were able to do, was do just Bible studies in our homes. And the way we did it was, some of you all may be familiar with the Discovery Bible Study method, but basically you're not allowed to use any previous knowledge or understanding of the Bible. You just look at the passage and you ask three basic questions: What does this passage teach us about God? What does it teach us about man? And what is something that we can apply to our lives from this passage?  And it was so beautiful because when I said earlier I feel like folks who have experienced want and need, that they have a deeper understanding of the teachings of Christ and the gospel than oftentimes I do, I really mean that, and I've seen that. So it was so powerful, just not having a Bible study where it's like one person from the church is leading these other people from different… It was everyone sharing from what they gleaned from the scripture, and also just put things in perspective. Like one of you talked about this point of things that I look at in my life as struggle and sacrifice, pale in comparison to what other folks are struggling with. But also the fact that they were willing to share their struggles with me meant so much to me.  And so just, there's so much richness that happens and so much faith stretching that happens. I don't know, so yeah, there is beauty in the struggle and the messiness. And also we as, I will say for myself, I know that I have so much to learn from people who have walks of life that look very different from my own. And I want the church to be purged of these ugly expressions of classism that have become so inculcated, as you were saying Gabrielle. Sy Hoekstra: The thing that I was going to talk about was also like proximity and humility. Those are kind of some of the main points for me. Then like the messiness that you were talking about that you're going to have to work through is just another one of the million applications of why, as we've talked about on this podcast before, emotional health is so important in a church context. And why not being someone who is easily overwhelmed by conditions that you're not used to, or someone who knows how to deal with those feelings of being overwhelmed and uncomfortable in a healthy way is just crucial to this work. Gabrielle Apollon: Suzie, I really appreciate you going back to this, I think, truism of people who have been affected in this way and are directly affected whether it's by poverty or whatnot, have so much to teach us. I just remember that growing up, the people who watched out for us the most in our church and watched out, and dropped stuff off even when we didn't ask for it, were people who knew what the struggle was like. Were often not the people who just like had so much overflow to give, but it was other people who had been poor or were still poor and are like sharing out of what little they had. I think that just really, I think, speaks to that which you said. Like that's where, that's actually what leadership and that's what discipleship — where I learned this is what you do. You give back even if you just have even a little more. Then to be honest, to answer your question Sy, I think sometimes, and this is obviously not just when it comes to class issues, but what I have seen is that sometimes even, it's non-church communities that sometimes do a better job at this than our churches. And not all the time, like there obviously, as Suzie you mentioned, there are some great examples of churches living out like loving our neighbors as ourselves.  But for me, just thinking about even in school, academic environments that I was in, so I'm now like a little jealous because I've seen like a lot more kind of first-generation student groups pop up post me being in college, and I'm like, man, that would have been nice. It would have been really nice to be able to talk to other people about the survivor's guilt that I felt and navigating how much money to send home and how much to keep for myself and… Sy Hoekstra: Sorry, just for clarity. When you say first-generation, you don't mean first-generation immigrant, you mean first-generation college student. Gabrielle Apollon: That's true. Yeah. I mean, both would be great, but yes. Sy Hoekstra: And you happen to be both, but here we're talking about college students, yes. Gabrielle Apollon: Exactly. But, and especially this, and I just want to kind of name some of these things, because I don't think we talk about this stuff enough in our church communities. But I really had the strong pressure, feeling that I had to compartmentalize everything that was going on at home so that I could get my schoolwork done and whatnot. And those are just things that have been really nice to have a community or space to process those things in. And I had a wonderful Christian fellowship. I had amazing people, I went to a church, but there wasn't, we didn't talk about that kind of stuff at the end of the day.  Or if you did, you were the only one that was bringing that up because most of the people were not having those similar experiences, which is a certain level of vulnerability too. So I didn't necessarily have that in college, but I did do like, in law school, I got a scholarship that was for first-generation grad students. And seeing how they, the type of community and the type of resources that they provided, I think really gave me a glimpse of like, oh, you can actually do this. As I was mentioning, not constraining resources to these very concise, discreet topics. Like you can pay rent for this and whatnot.  And they were like, we know that you guys have needs that don't fit in traditional molds, and like just come to us and we'll see what we can do. And those needs sometimes looked like trying to figure out whose criminal defense fees that I needed to pay or things like that. Things that were going to be the things that stopped me from doing my schoolwork, but weren't necessarily like, oh, you need a laptop or whatnot. Then they made space for community where you could talk about that stuff. And it would be amazing if one, there were enough people from diverse socioeconomic backgrounds and more churches that that space was possible. That community, that people could find that community and be comfortable enough to talk about those kinds of issues within our faith communities. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. And that program really was great. By the way, shout-out. This is the AnBryce Program at NYU. They're incredible. Gabrielle Apollon: Thank you for giving a real shout-out. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. But one of the things was you got full tuition from this program, but that doesn't mean that you have money to eat or pay rent. And like they were serious when they told you to come to them with other needs that you had because you went there and they helped you find a truly incredible loan to pay for those things. I don't know, it's just putting in that kind of work and making, leaving the door that open for people to come is super important. The other people, Suzie, I think we should shout-out who are doing this well for the church, is Sub:Culture Incorporated, which is — the author of our next book, Tamice Spencer, it's her organization, she and Robert Monson.  She, Tamice's story is kind of that she was a campus minister for a long time and the only thing that she was ever allowed to raise money for students, was for them to go to a retreat or something. And she's like, “but all the Black students that I have, they need money because their car broke down” or whatever, and that wasn't something that the campus ministry wanted to pay for. So she started her own ministry where they do pay for that stuff, and that's incredible. Gabrielle Apollon: Truly incredible, but also not something you can't do. Suzie Lahoud: These things are not hard [laughs]. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Immediate action step for listeners. Go donate money to Sub:Culture Incorporated [laughs].  Suzie Lahoud: As you were speaking, Gabrielle, it also made me think just as a small side note, one, yes, absolutely, check out Sub:Culture Incorporated and the work that they're doing, and the resources that they have around this. But also as a church, maybe recognize that sometimes the best resources, because I know I shared, I gave a sneak peek into some of the mistakes and things that my husband and I have learned over the years, but also not to, I also don't want to bless ignorance [laughs]. So do the work in the sense of go do research and read helpful resources and recognize that unfortunately, sometimes the best resources will not be explicitly Christian resources.  So they may not be books that are written for churches trying to do this, but they may just be resources on this period. I think that churches would be better resourced if they would look into those things. So, yeah, again, Sub:Culture Incorporated is amazing because they are doing this through a Christ-like lens. But also just try to just find the best of what's out there on supporting folks from these backgrounds and creating communities that address socioeconomic injustice and are aware of the challenges and the disparities and all that. Sy Hoekstra: Gabrielle, did you have any thoughts before we finish?  Gabrielle Apollon: I mean, I do think, I just want to kind of reiterate maybe the need for our pastors and our leaders to help disciple people out of this classism that is so, it permeates everything we do. I can't think of a subject or an issue that doesn't have a class component, but we're not usually talking about this. And as Suzie mentioned though, that takes them, discipling them, like getting discipleship themselves so that they're not, leaders aren't saying ignorant things that make the situation worse, which is definitely a risk also when people bring up these types of issues. But I think that that's critical, because again, yeah, this is the air we breathe. This will be what seeps into every aspect of our church communities, unless we're fighting this stuff. It's the whole, what are you discipled in six days out of the week and then you only have a day to try to maybe undo that stuff? Like you actually need to talk about this stuff. It's not just everybody, as you mentioned Sy, that everybody is the same or, because we know that inherently, but our culture is discipling us. Or we know that in our faith, I should say, but our culture is discipling us very differently the rest of the week. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think you will not be able to get away from being discipled that way if you take seriously the real unfiltered words of Jesus. Meaning unfiltered through all this stuff that you've heard about what Jesus thinks about money. In the Sermon on the Mount in Luke, Jesus straight up says give to those who beg of you. There's no qualification whatsoever. How many times have you heard Christians try and qualify why they shouldn't give money to that person on the street? You know what I mean? There's just stuff like that where if you really take Jesus' words seriously, you're going to start to change. It just takes a lot because you're going to have to be really different unfortunately, than a lot of the Christians around you.  Suzie Lahoud: So yeah, I'll just say this because I know Gabrielle, you're also from a somewhat Pentecostal background. But when you start to take Jesus' words seriously and directly and unfiltered, you will also see miracles happen. I really believe that God provides in miraculous ways. When churches step up to the plate and dive into the messiness and hit up against their own limitations, and then you see God provide in incredible, miraculous ways. That's another blessing that you receive. You're so right Gabrielle, that this is integral to the mission of the church, and there is so much more that we need to dig into, not just as a side topic or side ministry. This can really, I think, transform churches when they're willing to dive into this and experience the fullness of all that Christ has to offer on this.  Gabrielle Apollon: I know we are, Sy wants to cut us off. And I'm only a guest and so I shouldn't take over, but I promised Sy I needed to make a joke about nepotism since this is my second time on here [laughter]. As your wife, I feel like I'm just going to take the liberties and say, Suzie, I would love, because I feel like you have direct experiences about that particular point you made, and I think it's worthwhile if you don't mind, like sharing an example. Because I think when people haven't seen that happen, they're like, “Yeah okay, maybe. I don't really know what that means.” So if you do have an example, and Sy won't literally turn off the recording, then I'd love to hear it. Sy Hoekstra: You're making me sound like a real authoritarian host right now. I'm perfectly fine with this question.  [laughter] Suzie Lahoud: Oh man. Yeah. Just, well, like I shared, so for I guess two years, we had this weekly Bible study that would meet in our home and it was my husband and I and this community of folks that they had fled to Lebanon from Syria and were interested in getting involved in the life of our church. We were really careful to try to not provide assistance with strings attached, not make folks feel like they had to be involved in the church if they were receiving assistance, but there was a community that really wanted to, they said they wanted to study the Bible with us. So that's what we were doing. And there would be weekly prayer requests, and there were regularly things that came up. But what stand out to me are examples of, honestly just like physical healings when folks couldn't pay for medical care and when hospitals were overloaded. So like a guy who had completely thrown out his back at work doing construction work. I remember we laid hands on this one guy who had damaged his back and he came back the next week and he was fine. There were different cases like that.  Yeah, so just, and then there was one that I shared in the article in our book, that's probably still the one that most powerfully stands out to me, which was a young girl who had a brain tumor and we laid hands on her and prayed for her. And I have to say with like, from my end very little faith, that God could heal her, and he did. This is a family that the UN didn't have money to provide assistance. There's no way the family could have covered the medical bills because there were other cases where we would have to sit down with families and be like, “You can't afford this chemo, and that's not your fault.” So, but in this case, God healed this baby girl. So yeah, I mean, and again, it's that the messiness and the hardness of it, because you also lose people and you also see people go through difficult things, but God is real in the midst of all that. I'm sorry, I didn't have one specific example to share [laughs]. Gabrielle Apollon: No, no, no. Those are, you had lots of examples. Right. I think that it just comes to mind obviously like different scales sometimes. But for me, I just distinctly remember there were days, I mean, one, there was, my mom literally would get up like three hours before I had to go to school and start praying that somebody would be able to take me to school that day and reach out to however many people to try to get someone. And the Lord would really provide in that way.  But I remember, and I was, I actually had recently come to faith in a real way, but we would have to pray for my, we'd have to like drop my brother off to see his dad and there was no, like we didn't have a ride to do that, and my mom would get in trouble with the courts if it didn't happen. So we were just praying that miraculously, somebody would be willing and available to do it and it would happen. But it would happen often in the nick of time, but it would be people from church oftentimes who's like, “Oh, you were just on my mind and I called and checked to see if there's anything you needed.” And things like that, that I was like, well, the Lord is somehow making this work because I don't have any other reasons to identify as this happening week in and week out. But yeah, seeing communities and people of God stand up and do things is such a testament to the Lord's work, for sure.  Sy Hoekstra: I think that is as good a place as any to end, on that positive note. Gabrielle Apollon: I'll allow it.  Sy Hoekstra: You'll allow me to finish? Gabrielle Apollon: Your own podcast. [laughter] Sy Hoekstra: Thank you, Gabrielle.  Suzie Lahoud: I like having Gabrielle on. I think we should do this more often [laughter]. Sy Hoekstra: I mostly do also. Thank you. No, I'm kidding [laughter]. So thank you so much Gabrielle for being on and joining us today. We really appreciate it. Gabrielle Apollon: Thank you guys. Sy Hoekstra: Thank you all so much for listening. Just as a reminder, please do follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @KTFPress. Follow this podcast on your app. Subscribe, follow, whatever the button says in your particular player. Leave us a rating and review, and thank you so much again for being subscribers and listening to this bonus episode. We will have, by the way, information on season two coming soon. So stay tuned for that. You will not have to wait another month. And this may actually be the last monthly bonus episode for awhile because we might start, I think we probably will start that up next month, but we will have more definitive information on that coming soon. Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam and we will see you all very soon.  [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: I think for me… [siren noises in the background] Oh, there's a siren coming. Suzie, do you want to talk?  Suzie Lahoud: Oh sure. By the way, I have some church bells going in the distance that, you all aren't picking up on that? Okay. Sy Hoekstra: Nope. Suzie Lahoud: It would be nice except that I'm on a podcast.  This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com

Dominique DuBois Gilliard is back to talk about how power works in systems and structures, and how we can leverage privilege in subversive ways on behalf the the marginalized and oppressed in faithfulness to Scripture. These are the themes of Dominique's new book Subversive Witness: Scripture’s Call to Leverage Privilege. This was a Gravity Commons […] The post Dominique Dubois Gilliard: Leveraging Privilege for Kingdom Justice appeared first on Gravity Leadership.

​​“The truth of the Gospel is that we belong to each other and that there are not people who are more reflective of the image of God than other people.”Let's allow that statement to guide us through every interaction we have with others. Dominique Gillard lives in Atlanta and serves as the director of racial righteousness and reconciliation. I listened to Dominique's book Subversive Witness and while sitting at the nail salon, I wept. I was so moved by his words and intention on how to leverage privilege.There are people who became instantly uncomfortable by that word: privilege. But what does that word really mean? Dominique breaks it down for us with so much gospel kindness and shares that privilege is a result of a world tainted by sin. It's not just about race, it's about so many different groups and elements that make up our broken world. If our flourishing comes at the expense of other people's lives, are we willing to not flourish in that manner? This conversation is a beautiful reminder that the flourishing of all God's people matters.Connect with JamieFacebook // Twitter // Instagram // YouTubeGET ALL THE LINKS FROM THE SHOW HERE

Get notes on this podcast here:  https://churchleaders.com/podcast/418540-dominique-dubois-gilliard-joseph-pharaoh-apostles-privilege.html Dominique Dubois Gilliard joins the Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast to share why "privilege" is not only a concept acknowledged by Scripture but is also something churches must address in order to preserve an effective witness.   ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685   ChurchLeaders brings you the latest headlines and expert tips on faith, ministry and leading the church. Subscribe to our channel for exclusive content. Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/

================================================== ==SUSCRIBETEhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNpffyr-7_zP1x1lS89ByaQ?sub_confirmation=1================================================== == DEVOCIÓN MATUTINA PARA MUJERES 2022“SIN MIEDOS NI CADENAS”Narrado por: Sirley DelgadilloDesde: Bucaramanga, ColombiaUna cortesía de DR'Ministries y Canaan Seventh-Day Adventist Church  27 DE FEBRERO“GRACIOCRACIA”"ÉI, respondiendo, dijo a uno de ellos: Amigo, no te hago agravio; ¿no conviniste conmigo en un denario?" (Mateo 20:13).La meritocracia no es tan bonita como pensamos. Uno de los grandes problemas de este sistema es que hace que los ganadores tiendan a creer que su éxito se debe exclusivamente a su talento y esfuerzo personal. Tendemos a ignorar los elementos aleatorios, como los factores genéticos, las limitaciones geográficas y las condiciones históricas de un período determinado. Haber nacido inteligente, por ejemplo, se debe a una combinación compleja de factores socioculturales y genéticos sobre los cuales no tenemos control alguno.Creer que el éxito se debe exclusivamente a nuestro talento y esfuerzo puede volvernos insensibles para con los que fracasan. Si nuestro éxito se debe solo al esfuerzo, razonamos, el fracaso de otros se debe a su pereza. Cuando observamos países enteros a través de este marco interpretativo simplista, podemos asumir que su pobreza se debe a una falta de iniciativa y no a complejos sistemas sociales que perpetúan la desigualdad.Cuando Jesús relató la parábola de los obreros de la viña, estoy seguro de que quienes lo escuchaban pensaron: ¡Eso no es justo! Los que trabajaron menos no recibieron la misma paga (Mateo 20:1-16). Pero Jesús comenzó sus relatos con un giro inesperado de la trama a propósito, para revelar verdades del Reino de los cielos. En esta parábola, Jesús descubrió que el sistema de gobierno celestial no es “meritocrático” sino “graciocrático”. Dios busca a los perdidos, contrata a obreros sin talento, les paga de más y les da a su Hijo... completamente gratis. Al cetro del gobierno celestial lo mueve la misericordia, no el mérito.Dominique DuBois Gilliard, el autor y activista de Derechos Humanos, en su artículo “The Implications of Meritocracy on the Church”, escribe: “La meritocracia es una cosmovisión cancerosa. Es contraria al evangelio y compromete nuestra visión. [...] Distorsiona cómo nos vemos y cómo nos relacionamos e interactuamos con nuestro prójimo. […] Nos otorga un falso sentido de superioridad moral con el cual acusamos a los demás y los menospreciamos”. Como embajadoras del Reino de los cielos, debemos vivir reflejando las leyes del gobierno al cual representamos. ¡Hoy tú puedes ser una embajadora de la gracia!Padre, ayúdame a recordar que, si tuviera lo que merezco, no estaría viva hoy ni tendría esperanza de vida eterna. La paga del pecado es muerte, pero tu regalo es la vida eterna por medio de Cristo Jesús.

Buckle up for this one, friends, because Dominique DuBois Gilliard brings straight fire. Dominique's book is, "Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege", and it's a good one. In this episode, we talk about using privilege on behalf of the marginalized, giving power away, what it's like to be Black in America (and in the Church in America) and many more topics. Make sure to share this on the socials...everyone needs to sit in this with us.The podcast with Willie Jennings that Dominique recommends in the episode is "My Anger, God's Righteous Indignation."The beer we tasted in this episode is Evil Julius from Treehouse Brewing Company. It's delightful.The beverage tasting is at 0:56. To skip to the main segment, go to 5:24.Content Note: This episode contains discussion or mention of racialized violence and intimidation, rape, and profanity.Support the show

For this month's bonus episode, Sy and Jonathan sat down to talk about how the incarnation relates to a lot of the themes we talk about at KTF Press. Christmas celebrates God coming close to the oppressed, enacting anti-imperial liberation, refusing to use worldly power as a foundation for his kingdom, and a lot more. Oh, and Jonathan does an Advent poem at the end, which is incredible as always. We hope you all are having a wonderful holiday season, and merry Christmas! Mentioned in the episode: * The poem by Kaitlin Schetler * Oscar Muriu's talk at Urbana 2009 * Hannah-Kate's Twitter account Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts for this show at KTFPress.com. Hosts  Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  Production and editing by Sy Hoekstra. Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to shakethedust@ktfpress.com and we may answer your question on a future episode. TranscriptSy Hoekstra: … she says right up top in the Magnificat, “Who am I? The Lord has blessed me, and people will remember me for forever.” She very much understands her status now and the change in her status, and what that means for who God is and what he is trying to accomplish. It's just, it's so, it's interesting that it's so different than the Christmas story or the salvation story that so many of us grew up. But it's also something that immediately upon learning that she's pregnant, a 14-year-old girl understands [laughs].  Jonathan Walton: Yes. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Sy: Welcome to Shake The Dust: Leaving colonized faith for the Kingdom of God, a podcast of KTF Press. I'm Sy Hoekstra, here with Jonathan Walton as always. We are here today to talk to you a little bit about Christmas and the incarnation, and what it has to do with the stuff that we talk about on this show. Before we get started really quick, thank you all so much for subscribing. This is a subscriber only episode. We appreciate so much your support. Welcome to the new people who are here off the sale that we did recently. So just please remember to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at KTF Press, and subscribe and follow this podcast, whatever button your app has on it, a subscribe button or a follow button, hit that one for us if you don't mind.  If you can go on Apple podcast and leave us a rating and review, we would really appreciate it. That helps us out a ton. All right. So Jonathan, we're talking about the incarnation today because it is Christmas time. Today, when this drops, it's Christmas Eve. So let's just get started with a really simple question Jonathan. What to you right now is standing out to you, is compelling about the incarnation of Jesus and the advent season? Jonathan: Oh man, so many things, especially trying to explain Christmas to a little girl who is trying to also understand what Hanukkah is and also understand what Kwanzaa is, and also understand why we celebrate New Year's and other people don't. Like what's distinct about this thing called Christmas? Sy: Interesting.  Jonathan: What is standing out to me is the humanity of Jesus, in contrast to how, the way that we talk about him, is like we stuff him into the divine, and don't bring him into the humanity. Or we stuff him into humanity and don't, kind of the divine, they don't hang out with each other.  Sy: Oo, Elaborate.  Jonathan: All right. So there's this poem making its way around Facebook again, and it says a real scandal of the birth of God. And it starts out, “Sometimes I wonder if Mary breastfed Jesus. If she cried out when he bit her, or if she sobbed when he would not latch. And having had a kid, two kids and watching that intimate, hard process happen, it's like, yeah, Jesus was a person, but he was also God.” And then you know, Mary Did You Know? seems to, that song completely seems to dismiss the fact that an angel showed up and told her lots of things, and she burst into worship this song we call The Magnificat. Which it seems like we don't know what to do with the tension of that.  The humanity and the divinity and how those things interplay with each other. And there's another photo, or a piece of art that shows Joseph holding Mary's hand and she's in labor, pushing. So I just wonder, what if I was able to contemplate Christ as human and contemplate Christ as the son of God at the same time, and be able to hang out in that tension? Because in that tension is something I can't control. It's only something I can observe and appreciate as opposed to try to box it in a fixed value or put to my labelling. Sy: Has thinking about that more like taken you anywhere? Jonathan: What it's pushing me to, is to be okay with the wrestling and being okay with the wrestling. So Hannah-Kate @freedomsbride on Twitter, she posted, “I'm okay with wrestling in my understanding of the scriptures, because I'm confident in the one who gave them to us.” I'm okay with being confused by hard texts, because my security isn't in my competence, but in the one who is faithful. And I am more certain that God is real, he exists. He is present, he moves and all of that in the world by far. I am also more certain that I do not know everything about him or what he's doing. And I think that this Christmas leads me to that. I am much smaller than I ever thought I was, much more insignificant and limited than I ever thought to be, or imagine myself, and that is okay. Sy: Yeah. Those thoughts from Hannah-Kate. For people who don't follow her on Twitter, you should. Those thoughts are very hard one for her. She's a very public survivor of sexual assault and advocate for people who have been assaulted inside the church. Following her on Twitter is like watching her go through her journey. She's very open about it, and it's worth doing, if you don't know who she is.  Jonathan: Turn that question back to you, Sy. I would love to hear what's standing out to you this Christmas season.  Sy: Yeah, totally. So something I've been thinking about a lot, is maybe not surprising to people who've been listening to this podcast, but I have been thinking about the fear of being human that we talked about with Dr. Hardwick, and how we are so quick to dismiss and avoid and try and push away the pain and the difficulties that come with living in a physical, limited body. Obviously he, when we were talking, when we were having that conversation with him, we were talking specifically about disabilities and how people fear them, and how our fear of disabilities, and that's a reflection of our fear of being human. So what's been standing out to me, I think, is just the complete absence of the fear of being human in God.  Just the total vulnerability of becoming a baby and being subject to the everyday things of this world… I mean, natural disasters. Like tripping and falling could have killed Jesus like it could any of us, you know what I mean? And he was absolutely willing, he was able to become a human, which is sort of a remarkable thing in and of itself, but then was willing to do it. Wanted to do it in order to be closer to us, in order to save us, in order to bring his kingdom close to earth. And that, it's just, it's something that none of us could do, which is an obvious thing to say. Like, yeah, none of us as Christians are supposed to think that we could have saved the world the way Jesus could have. But it to me just emphasizes kind of his difference from us.  But then I kept thinking about it a little bit more. And in his becoming human, like you just talked about, he also experiences the fears that we experience. He experiences the temptations and the insecurities. I'm just thinking of the Garden of Gethsemane, and Jesus trying and asking God to, “Take this cup away from me. I don't want to go to the cross. I don't want to be executed or go through …” We don't know exactly what it was that he was afraid of. But he did not want to go through something because it was just, it was going to be horrible. And I think it is comforting to me to have both a God who understands that fear of being human that I experienced myself, and also like a fear that I have kind of pushed on me by other people.  He understands that and overcame it and understood what you get from overcoming it. And that what you get from overcoming it is the kingdom. Is eternal life is, is love and joy. Like for the joy set before him is why he endured the cross. All of that is wrapped up in the act of God becoming a baby, and I think that's just extremely powerful and something I've been thinking a lot about in the past couple of weeks. Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, you, I mean, the stuff you just named is like, those things that are significant, but it also made me think about like, he subjected himself to invent the potential for infanticide, right? Like Herod said, “we're going to kill these children,”  Sy: right Jonathan: And then subjecting himself to being a refugee. To not having a home. There's a lot about the trials of life that are mounting and Jesus knows all of them.  Sy: Right. So let's talk about this then Jonathan, what to you, hearkening back a little bit to our conversation with Dominique DuBois Gilliard, what is subversive about the incarnation of God? Jonathan: Everything [laughs]. Everything means nothing. So, specifically, it's just not what the Jewish people are looking for in any way, shape, or form. It's what they want. Right? Sy: What's what they want? Jonathan: They want liberation. They want the Romans out. They want their homes back, their life back to not be taxed to death. They want to have autonomy. They don't want soldiers abusing and violating and crucifying people around them. They don't want those things. Yet Jesus says, “I'm going to liberate you from …  not that? From separation from me? from …” I mean, list out the things that Peter might've thought were going to happen before he picked up the sword and struck Malchus in the ear. But it's like, to think about what it would mean to be set free in Christ, but still be under Roman oppression. Looking at the person of Jesus in that day feels other worldly. If I'm Peter, I'm a lower, middle-class person, not educated, I'm a fishmonger, I hang out with dirty things, I smell the majority of the day, but I provide food for people, it's a good job.  Doing my thing, my dad is my, our family business. All of a sudden there's this person who comes that says, “You know what, everything could be made new.” And my everything is like, I'm not going to be subject to these systems anymore. I'm not going to experience that. And I don't know all the things that Peter experienced or witnessed, but the thought of … I'm sure he had a list of things as he talked with Jesus, became more and more enamored by him, and took more risks with him and for him and through him. All of a sudden now, this liberator who he, I would imagine he thinks is going to just overthrow Caesar and rule the world with him by his side, because Peter's always trying to get up in there. It's like all of a sudden he's going to be taken away by at least 150 soldiers.  And so it's like, yeah, he's just not here to, he's not, Jesus did not come to fulfill or perform my will and desire. He just didn't. He came to do the will of the father. This is where I think some worship songs that we sing miss the point. You know, worship songs are great, but the songs that just completely revolve around us. Like, you were thinking of me on the cross and you were… I don't know if that's true. It might be. I mean, because God is able to think a lots of things at once. But in John 3:16, when he says, For God so loved the world, that word world is a Greek word, cosmos, which means God's ordered purposes, and that's why he died, because we were made to be in Shalom. I don't necessarily know or think, even though it's comforting to conjecture that like, oh, he was thinking of Jonathan Walton. But at the end of the day I'm like, it's actually more important that he was thinking of all of humanity. Because if he wanted to do what I wanted him to do, the world would not be saved. I would just be comfortable.  Sy: So this is related to what I was going to say, which I was thinking back Jonathan to a talk that you and I were both present for about 12 years ago at Urbana 2009, from a guy named Oscar Muriu, who is a pastor in Kenya. He basically gave a talk, the first like, I don't know, five minutes or so of the talk, were him explaining how all of the ways that God went about saving the earth, were terrible from his, Oscar Muriu's perspective [laughs]. How slow it was, how Jesus was a baby, how he wasn't, like there wasn't some big triumphal procession when he came. He was like, “I could have saved the world in like half the time that Jesus saved the world.” Jonathan: Absolutely. His marketing campaign would have been out of this world, right. Sy: Right. Exactly. Had no marketing or branding savvy. He basically concludes that all of the ways that we grab onto power to try and spread the gospel, and the kingdom and everything that we do in the church, all the ways that we seek after money and influence and all of that are, like run completely counter to the incarnation. To the idea of God coming as a baby, and how those … I don't know. All those means, all those methods that we have tried to spread his word throughout the world, by the simple fact that God didn't do them, we can see kind of how disorganized, how disoriented, how confused we are. How easily we give into the ways that people try and spread their messages as part of the kingdom of earth. Jonathan: Exactly. No, I mean, there's an old hymn that we used to sing called, “Yield Not to Temptation.” The idea that we are so tempted to false liberation, from whatever the thing is. Like I could get some morsel of satisfaction from this and some, cobbled together some sort of freedom from the suffering of this world or the trappings of life, whatever the thing is. If someone will promise that. And we see that in political speeches all the times from Trump or Biden or Clinton or Obama. There seems to be this promise of liberation or freedom from this existential angst or threat that we are carrying. Well, and it's tempting to lean into that. And Jesus actually rejects that when he rejects Satan, when in the tempting at the desert, right? Sy: Yeah.  Jonathan: Anyway, that could be a whole nother podcast, but yeah. Sy: It could. I agree with you, and this is actually, I talked about this in the episode that we did with Irene Chow. But this is actually pretty connected to the way that I personally became a Christian, and moving from having real objections to the idea of hell and punishment for something that we never would have done, that never would have existed if God hadn't created us in the first place, and he didn't need us. So I had all these objections to him kind of setting up this world where people could end up in hell. And the better question that I had, I never had to answer that question, but the better question I got that turned me away from that question was, basically based on this, based on the incarnation, based on the subversive, confusing way that Jesus goes about trying to save the world.  Because he has to suffer through it, because it is difficult, because he becomes so vulnerable, it kind of forces you to ask, instead of why would God create the world, there's like, why would God create the world, knowing what he had to go through? And that knowing, the fact that he knew that, that he had to suffer, that he had to become vulnerable, that he had to descend and lose privilege and lose power and all of those things in order to effectuate what he wanted to accomplish with the kingdom of God. That is a question that doesn't lead you away from Jesus, it leads you toward him. I think, I don't know, that that to me is always a very personally grounding aspect of the incarnation.  Jonathan: Absolutely. I mean, you, it sounds like you asking you the question, why would you do this to me? Then you're like, wait, why would you do this to yourself? Sy: Yes. [laughter] Jonathan: Which changes it, right?  Sy: Yeah. I've also been thinking back a little bit to the conversation that we had with Rich, in our very first… no, our second episode, but the first interview that we did, you and I. His idea that the gospel is the announcement of the kingdom of God and the announcement of Jesus himself coming to earth. So not just salvation, he was like salvation is a part of it, but it's not the only thing. It is the announcement of the actual kingdom of God coming near. And what that means for us, and you pointed a little bit, or you alluded a little bit to this earlier. But Mary gets that immediately [laughs]. When the spirit, as the Bible says, enters Elizabeth, and she says to Mary, “Why am I so blessed that the mother of my Lord call on me?” I can't remember the exact words [laughs], but she then launches into The Magnificat, which has all of these lines about lifting up the humble and bringing down the proud from their thrones and filling the hungry with every good thing, and sending the rich away empty handed, and says nothing about the forgiveness of sins. Jonathan: Right. It's true.  Sy: And it's like, she just understands what's happening to her on a level. On an immediate, intuitive level, kind of based on her position in society. She says right up top in The Magnificat, “Who am I? The Lord has blessed me and people will remember me for forever.” She very much understands her status now and the change in her status, and what that means for who God is and what he is trying to accomplish. And it's just, it's so… it's interesting that it's so different than the Christmas story or the salvation story that so much of us, so many of us grew up with. But it's also something that, immediately upon learning that she's pregnant, a 14-year-old girl understands [laughs].  Jonathan: Yes. That's where I think the idea of liberation was not far away from this occupied people. The idea of Jesus or the promise of a Messiah was not far away from these people. They wanted, we're waiting for God to come back. They were listening for that, the 400 years of silence and all those different things. They were looking for a Messiah, the one that was to come. It wasn't like, oh yeah, maybe he'll show up sometime. But these were active thoughts for a population of people that knew what that meant. So it could have been let's say like the Pharisees and the Sadducees, who spending time thinking about these things, all the way down to an illiterate 14-year-old girl. That like know, “oh, I know what that is.”  You know what I mean? And just as a tangent, that is very large. It's like one of the most subversive things about this incarnation, like is the, is our fathers use engagement with, love for, exaltation of women. It's not Joseph that gets the message, it's Mary. Zachariah did not believe it, Elizabeth did. Then you talk about the first evangelist was like the woman at the well. The first, the witnesses that testified to Jesus being resurrected, it's Mary. Like there's, the women are centered in these stories, in the scriptures, and they're named, and it is a, to go back to what you said before, it's how far we have strayed away from the subversiveness of the story to fit whatever narrative where, whatever narrative fits our needs for the day. When I say we, I use it very loosely because I ain't trying to do that. [laughter] Sy: Can I ask you, what have you told Maia about the incarnation? How have you explained Christmas to her?  Jonathan: Oh man.  Sy:  Maia's Jonathan's five-year-old, if you don't know.  Jonathan: We haven't done the Luke 2 and all that stuff yet. The way that I've talked to her about Jesus is, in Christmas, is mostly through giving. So we give money every year as a family… Sy:  At Christmas?  Jonathan: At the end of the year, at Christmas time, yeah. This is the first year that Maia's kind of cognizant of it. So one of the organizations we support is the IRC- International Rescue Committee and… Sy: Which settles refugees in the US. Jonathan: Settles refugees in the US, absolutely. So I had some pretty, I don't know how young kids are supposed to be faced with these conversations, but we're having a conversation about the black national anthem and about slavery, and it just struck her. She goes like, “Will that ever happen to me,” that's what she said. I was like, “No.” I said, “We work really hard so that things like that don't happen to you or to anybody else.” And she's starting to understand that the world is not fair. So she's like, “Well, why doesn't this young girl in Ethiopia have enough food? And why doesn't this young boy, why is he in a camp in Syria? And why …?” And I said, and I talked about Bashar al-Assad. I talked about the war in Ethiopia. And the thing that I told her about Trump, is I said, “Maya, the problem that Trump has, is what he calls good is bad and what he calls bad is good.” I said, “That's the problem.” God says, do not exchange the truth for a lie, and don't call what's dark light and what's light, dark, you know? So that's how I explain these leaders to her. I said, “Some people are choosing to do these things.” And I said, “They want something more than they want God.” I said, “When that happens, we have to work hard to make sure that things that God wants in the world continue to happen.” And she gets that. She's like, “Oh, I want this kid to be able to go to school like me.” So the way that ties into Christmas, is that Jesus came so that these things might be fulfilled in full. So I say, “Hey, you can be sad about all these things right now, but Jesus came so that these… and then that actually ties into heaven, because in heaven these things don't happen.  It is all full and all good. Yeah. She's having a really hard time understanding right now that she is good, even though she makes mistakes. I can see it in her mind. She's like, she does something bad, we correct her and she cries. She goes, “I just think I'm a bad person.” And there's something beautiful about Jesus willing to come close to us and validate us. I think it's Sheldrake who said, if God was so ashamed of our bodies and humanity, he would have never wrapped himself in one. You know? Yeah, I'm really hoping she gets that. Sy: Me too, and I bet everybody is, because that's adorable and sad and beautiful all at the same time [laughs]. Jonathan: The tension, right? Sy:  Yeah, exactly. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. I think it's … I've never had to do that before, explain incarnation to a five-year-old [laughs]. So I just think the ways that people go about that are really reflective of their own discipleship. And I think that's a really interesting and cool way that you're trying to explain this and make it relevant to her actual experiences, like what she's going through, which I think is kind of the only real way to do discipleship.  Jonathan: Yeah. I'm bumbling along and all that, but I, trying to share with her just the beauty of it. Sy: Okay. So the way that we're going to end this episode for you, Jonathan, he's done this on a bonus episode before, but he's going to do a poem for us. An advent poem that he wrote a long time. When did you write this one Jonathan? Jonathan: I wrote this in 2007. Yeah It's a long time ago.  Sy: Yeah, okay [laughs]. A long time ago. So before Jonathan takes us out on the poem, I just want to remind you all, please do follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @KTFPress. Please hit the subscribe or the follow button on your podcast player, go to Apple podcasts, leave us a rating and review if you can. Those things are really helpful if you have a couple extra minutes, and a little bit of Christmas generosity in your heart. If you wouldn't mind helping us out that way, we would really appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening, and here is Jonathan.  Jonathan: So In the morning, it's in the back of my mind ... by mid-day it's in the middle and by nighttime it's all I see with my eyes closed or open, because I don't want to miss it --- the moment when the east sky cracks and all that was taken is given back by He who made and gave it all away and gives and gives every good and perfect gift to us every single day -- to the faithful and the faith-less -- to hands held back and those  extended --- to the priests and to the paupers, to the mockers and the scoffers -- to all He did come and is coming again and I can't wait ... to the ones who have been bombed and to the ones who dropped them, to those hard and guarded and those whose hearts are soft and longing for His coming--- so I'm praying for grace and patience that we might praise Him in the rain... and not run to the clubs or comforts and addictions, to not color reality with uppers and downers or things that keep us from feeling -- but instead run to the rock of our salvation, cling to the hem of His garment and say give me strength til I can see the days of revelation when every tribe and every nation will praise you in the heavenly places -- oh lord my God give us strength in our waiting, so that you might reclaim the pieces of your kingdom that the enemy has taken.  Messiah, you are coming but the time is not yet so give us faith to trust that our train has not left us behind and somehow we missed it -- because In the morning, it's in the back of my mind ... by mid-day it's in the middle and by nighttime it's all I see with my eyes closed or open, because I don't want to miss it -- the moment when the east sky cracks and all that was taken is given back by He who made and gave it all away and gives and gives every good gift to us every single day -- I don't want to miss it, and I just can't wait. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Jonathan: Yup Sy: Alright Jonathan: Let's do it [clears throat] Sy: You can't hear that truck, okay. [inhales to begin speaking, and a loud truck horn blares] [laughter] Jonathan: On cue – [imitates truck horn] Sy: You hear that – Yeah exactly. [laughs] Oh, New York …  This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com

Most of us know the stories of Moses, Esther, Paul & Silas and Zacchaeus. But have you ever thought about the role privilege played in their stories? In his new book, Dominique Dubois Gilliard looks at these well-known Bible stories from a different lens and translates the lessons he discovered to our current culture. Each of those Biblical characters had a form of privilege and, when faced with an opportunity, used it to subvert systems of power in order to uplift and restore vulnerable people. Find links to the video version of this episode and show notes at transformation58.com/podcast. Outro music: Unconditional? by Cam Stillson

Today, privilege has become a dirty word that is automatically associated with sinfulness, but Dominique Gillard, author of “Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege,” says it doesn't have to be. He explores the many biblical characters who used their privilege redemptively rather than selfishly, and challenges us to rethink our assumptions about who is really privileged in our society.  Also this week, a new study reveals how our preferred news source shapes our political and cultural beliefs—especially for those on the more conservative end of the spectrum. As the Supreme Court hears arguments about Mississippi's new abortion law, Tish Harrison Warren says we need to rethink our definition of feminism to include women who are pro-life. Plus, Phil goes to an indoor waterpark, and the Japanese have an innovative new energy source. News Segment: 0:00 - Intro/Thanksgiving highlights 12:41 - News of the Butt 20:50 - PRRI media study https://www.prri.org/spotlight/why-we-divide-republicans-by-media-trust-the-oan-newsmax-effect/ 36:29 - Feminism and pro-life https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/28/opinion/feminism-abortion-pro-life.html 50:11 - MyPillow ads 52:17 - Holy Post merch https://www.holypost.com/shop Interview with Dominique DuBois Gilliard: “Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege” - https://amzn.to/3Dm9igF 53:32 - Introduction 57:31 - Defining privilege 1:04:45 - How stories in Scripture help us 1:08:20 - Accountability in leveraging privilege 1:21:08 - Interpreting the rich young ruler 1:26:49 - Fruit in ongoing repentance Other resources mentioned: “Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice That Restores” - https://amzn.to/3E9n8nK The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice(LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC's “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC's ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. Gilliard earned a bachelor's degree in African American Studies from Georgia State University and a master's degree in history from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. He also earned an MDiv from North Park Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor teaching Christian ethics, theology, and reconciliation. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/situppodcast/message

Ali Lantz and her husband Kory founded Transformation Ministries in 2009 with the hopes of being good neighbors and seeing transformation in the urban neighborhood they moved into. They found that the greatest transformation has happened to them as they've built deep relationships and walked alongside their neighbors for the past 12 years. You're invited to join us in January to study and discuss Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege, the new book by Dominique DuBois Gilliard. We'll meet on the first four Mondays in January 2022 at the Transformation Center (1519 Portage Ave., South Bend, IN 46616) from 7-9pm, with an optional free dinner from 6-7pm each night. If you want to join the study group, please RSVP by Monday, Dec. 27! Find more episodes and show notes at https://www.transformation58.com/podcast

Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC’s “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC’s ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. Gilliard earned a bachelor’s degree in African American Studies from Georgia State University and a master’s degree in history from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. He also earned an MDiv from North Park Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor teaching Christian ethics, theology, and reconciliation. Dominique joined Dr. Drew and Jarrod to talk about his new book, Subversive Witness. Follow Dominique on Instagram @dominiquedgilliard and Twitter @DDGilliard. Follow Drew Hart on Instagram and Twitter @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on Instagram and Twitter @jarrodmckenna. Discover our global community on Twitter and Instagram @inversepodcast. Become a Patron of Inverse at https://www.patreon.com/InVerse Inverse Podcast is produced by Jen Kinney @iamjenkinney With thanks to David Andrew (@davidjandrew) for the ongoing use of his music in this podcast.

What is privilege? Why does talking about it get us so defensive? Dominique Dubois Gilliard returns to the podcast to dive into his new book SUBVERSIVE WITNESS. How is learning to spot our privilege good news? And what are we supposed to do when we identify it? PLUS: does one of your hosts have a secret passage in their house?

Description: You do not want to miss this episode with Dominique DuBois Gilliard! Dominique explains why the church must be at the forefront of conversations in our culture surrounding systemic sin. This conversation dives deep into the biblical lens in which to view systemic racism and patriarchy, reparations and trauma. And it provides helpful descriptions of confession and repentance. This episode will spur you on in your discipleship journey as well as your bridge-building journey. Host & Executive Producer - Latasha Morrison Senior Producer - Lauren C. Brown Producer, Editor & Music By - Travon Potts Transcriber - Sarah Connatser Quotes: “One of the things I think we can never lose sight of is the fact that we're doing this work on the ground, and we're also engaging in spiritual warfare, too.” -Dominique “I think this is a moment. And I think for bridge builders, the thing that we have to recognize is that it's also an opportunity.” -Dominique “Scripture is clear, privilege is real and it exists. And it addresses it multiple times throughout the biblical text. But scripture is also clear that we are always going to be tempted to exploit privilege for our selfish gain as opposed to taking Philippians two type mindset and really looking at privilege as something that we could steward and leverage to expand the kingdom and sacrificially love our neighbors.” -Dominique “What happened as a consequence of the church's silence and lack of integrity is that folks outside the church picked up these conversations that we should have been having.” -Dominique Links: Dominique Gilliard dominiquegilliard.com instagram.com/dominiquedgilliard facebook.com/DominiqueDGilliard twitter.com/DDGilliardAd for BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/BetheBridgeBe the Bridge: BeTheBridge.comNot all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization. LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE Podcast link: https://podlink.to/BeTheBridgeSocial handles/links: Instagram: @LatashaMorrisonTwitter: @LatashaMorrisonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/LatashaMMorrison/Official Hashtag: #bethebridge Be The Bridge Podcast Survey https://forms.gle/CtssQibbH9Ct7Qdx6 --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

What does it mean to go beyond compassion for those in need to doing the work of restorative justice we are called to do on their behalf? What are some practical ways we can most effectively use our voice and influence as representatives of Christ in this world? Join us as author Dominique Dubois Gilliard shares on the subject of his new book “Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege"

Book interview with Dominique DuBois Gilliard for “Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege”

Description: You do not want to miss this episode with Dominique DuBois Gilliard! Dominique explains why the church must be at the forefront of conversations in our culture surrounding systemic sin. This conversation dives deep into the biblical lens in which to view systemic racism and patriarchy, reparations and trauma. And it provides helpful descriptions of confession and repentance. This episode will spur you on in your discipleship journey as well as your bridge-building journey. Host & Executive Producer - Latasha Morrison Senior Producer - Lauren C. Brown Producer, Editor & Music By - Travon Potts Transcriber - Sarah Connatser Quotes: “One of the things I think we can never lose sight of is the fact that we're doing this work on the ground, and we're also engaging in spiritual warfare, too.” -Dominique “I think this is a moment. And I think for bridge builders, the thing that we have to recognize is that it's also an opportunity.” -Dominique “Scripture is clear, privilege is real and it exists. And it addresses it multiple times throughout the biblical text. But scripture is also clear that we are always going to be tempted to exploit privilege for our selfish gain as opposed to taking Philippians two type mindset and really looking at privilege as something that we could steward and leverage to expand the kingdom and sacrificially love our neighbors.” -Dominique “What happened as a consequence of the church's silence and lack of integrity is that folks outside the church picked up these conversations that we should have been having.” -Dominique Links: Dominique Gilliard dominiquegilliard.com instagram.com/dominiquedgilliard facebook.com/DominiqueDGilliard twitter.com/DDGilliardAd for BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/BetheBridgeBe the Bridge: BeTheBridge.comNot all views expressed in this interview reflect the values and beliefs of Latasha Morrison or the Be the Bridge organization. LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE Podcast link: https://podlink.to/BeTheBridgeSocial handles/links: Instagram: @LatashaMorrisonTwitter: @LatashaMorrisonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/LatashaMMorrison/Official Hashtag: #bethebridge Be The Bridge Podcast Survey https://forms.gle/CtssQibbH9Ct7Qdx6 --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

- MEG KILGANNON: A Concerned Citizen's Guide to Engaging with Public Schools - DOMINIQUE DEBOIS GILLIARD: Subversive Witness - Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege

Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board […]

Program Director Adam Borneman speaks with the Rev. Dominique DuBois Gilliard (Evangelical Covenant Church) about his newest book and scripture's call to leverage privilege.

On this episode (LONG in the making but well worth the wait), Cody and Craig quickly discuss a few S topics before chatting with their guest Dominique DuBois Gilliard (author of Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege.Episode 57: Subversively Sly Sunshine (with Guest Dominique DuBois Gilliard)ATHBPDominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine's 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard's latest book, Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege was just published by Zondervan. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary in its School of Restorative Arts and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.”In addition to the fascinating discussion about Dominique's book, Craig and Cody also spent a little time talking about a couiple of S topics:Both agree that the the coaches and administrators and parents and EVERYONE INVOLVED with the Bishop Sycamore scandal were incredibly SLY, SHADY, and SLIMYWe talk about the SUN finally making an appearance after so much smoke all SUMMER long.We highlight some SERIOUS SCRIPTURAL ABUSE from the Biden AdministrationPLUS a bit more from here and there!Pertinent Links from the Dominque DuBois Gilliard portion:Learn about Domique's denomination, the Evangelical Covenant ChurchCheck out the Christian Community Development Association, where Dominique serves as board memberRead about the School of Restorative Arts at Northpark Theological SeminaryFollow and interact with The All That's Holy: Blue Collar Podcast on Facebook and TwitterFollow and buy music from At The Speed of Darkness on Bandcamp and Instagram.

What is privilege? How can we leverage it to proclaim God's love to the world and create communities that flourish? Dominique DuBois Gilliard, the author of Subversive Witness, talks with Amy Julia about the church and privilege, economic justice, and how to leverage privilege in order to demonstrate the Gospel in innovative and faithful ways.Show Notes:Guest Bio: “Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine's 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard's latest book, Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege was just published by Zondervan. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary in its School of Restorative Arts and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.”Connect Online:TwitterFacebookInstagramYouTubeOn the Podcast:Season 3 interview with Dominique (about his book Rethinking Incarceration)Books by Dominique: Rethinking Incarceration and Subversive WitnessSubversive Witness video-based small group curriculumAmy Julia's book about privilege: White Picket FencesScripture: Esther, Lamentations, Isaiah 58:12, Jeremiah 29:6-8, Psalm 139:23-24, John 13:34-35Justice depositsFREE RESOURCE: Head, Heart, Hands Action GuideQuotes:“There's privilege connected to embodiment, so how our bodies are constructed…race, gender, able-bodiedness, mental cognition…this form of privilege slowly but surely starts to negate the biblical truth that we are equitably made in the image of God. It starts to create this sliding scale of humanity where some lives are respected, protected, and valued over and against others.”“We have been conditioned, and dare I say discipled, to think about good intentions as more important than the impact of our actions.”Season 5 of the Love Is Stronger Than Fear podcast connects to themes in my newest book, To Be Made Well, releasing Spring 2022. You can pre-order here! Learn more about my writing and speaking at amyjuliabecker.com.*A transcript of this episode will be available within one business day, as well as a video with closed captions on my YouTube Channel.

This week, we have a fascinating interview with Dominique DuBois Gilliard, the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church, and author of Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege. We talk to him about that book; how the Bible discusses privilege; reading Scripture with ideas like privilege, power dynamics, and trauma in mind; how disciples of Jesus leverage privilege for God's Kingdom; the church's truncated conception of repentance; and a lot more.  Other resources from Dominique mentioned during the episode: The video series curriculum accompanying Subversive WitnessDominique's last book, Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that RestoresShake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show and subscribe to get our newsletter and other paid content at KTFPress.com. Hosts: Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  Production and editing by Sy Hoekstra. Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Suzie Lahoud. Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to shakethedust@ktfpress.com and we may answer your question on a future episode. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Dominique Dubois Gilliard unpacks his new book, Subversive Witness, to help us name our privilege and use it for the sake of others. A deeply biblical and subversively beautiful call to live a cruciform life in the way of Jesus.

Doug Pagitt and Dan Deitrich chat with co-host Dominique Gilliard about his work as Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. Next week, with the full panel of co-hosts, we'll be celebrating and discussing the launch of Domonique's new book, Subversive Witness.   Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine's 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” Gilliard's forthcoming book, Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilegewill be released on August 24, 2021. @DDGilliard     //      facebook.com/dominique.dg.7

“We are a nation that has become addicted to incarceration.” Dominique Gilliard is an author, speaker, teacher, and the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church. His first book, Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores was the topic of our conversation today. The … Continue reading Episode 101 – Dominique Dubois Gilliard

Today we revisit a conversation on the Christian Case for Reparations that aired April 8, 2021. Stephanie, Laura, Dominique and Doug discuss how our Christian faith compels us to not just repent, but to also make amends - reparations - for America's original sins of slavery and land theft.   ados101.com   Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine's 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” Gilliard's forthcoming book, Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege will be released on August 24, 2021. @DDGilliard     //      facebook.com/dominique.dg.7   Rev. Dr. Laura Truax is senior pastor of LaSalle Street Church in Chicago and serves on the Seminary Advisory Board at the University of Dubuque. Dr. Truax holds a master of divinity degree from Loyola University and a Doctor of Ministry degree from the joint program of North Park Seminary and Fuller Theological Seminary. She is the author of Undone: When coming apart puts you back together (2013) and Love Let Go: Radical Generosity for the real world (2017) and is part of the Red Letter Christians.    @revtruax     //     facebook.com/laura.truax1   Rev. Dr. Stephany Rose Spaulding is pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, associate professor of Women's and Ethnic Studies at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs (UCCS) and former U.S. Senate candidate for the state of Colorado. She holds a B.A. in English from Clark Atlanta University, as well as a M.A. in American Literature and a Ph. D. in American Studies both from Purdue University. She is the author of Recovering from Racism: A Guidebook to Beginning Conversations (2015) and Abolishing White Masculinity from Mark Twain to Hiphop: Crisis in Whiteness (2014).   @drstephanyrose     //      facebook.com/stephanyrose    Doug Pagitt is the Executive Director and one of the founders of Vote Common Good. He is also a pastor, author, and social activist. @pagitt   The Common Good Podcast is produced and edited by Daniel Deitrich. @danieldeitrich Our theme music is composed by Ben Grace. @bengracemusic   votecommongood.com votecommongood.com/podcast facebook.com/votecommongood twitter.com/votecommon

Today we look at the history of Juneteenth and how being truthful about our past is the only way to build a better future. To that end, Rev. Dr. Stephany Rose gives us a preview of the Truth and Conciliation Summit that she is hosting this week. She is joined by Doug Pagitt, Dominique Gilliard, and Dr. Dena Samuels who is one of the presenters at the summit.   Learn more and take the Truth and Conciliation Pledge here.    Dena Samuels, PhD, serves as a mindfulness-based diversity, equity, and inclusion author, speaker, leadership trainer, and consultant. As an award-winning tenured professor, Dr. Samuels taught at the University of Colorado – Colorado Springs for 20 years while consulting around the U.S. and beyond. She now consults full-time on mindful, inclusive leadership development, and remains on faculty at the university. She has authored several books and many other publications. Her latest book, “The Mindfulness Effect: an unexpected path to healing, connection, and social justice,” offers 25 mindfulness practices for health/wellness, self-empowerment, culturally inclusive leadership development, social justice and environmental justice.   Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine's 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” Gilliard's forthcoming book, Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilegewill be released on August 24, 2021. @DDGilliard     //      facebook.com/dominique.dg.7   Rev. Dr. Stephany Rose Spaulding is pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, associate professor of Women's and Ethnic Studies at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs (UCCS) and former U.S. Senate candidate for the state of Colorado. She holds a B.A. in English from Clark Atlanta University, as well as a M.A. in American Literature and a Ph. D. in American Studies both from Purdue University. She is the author of Recovering from Racism: A Guidebook to Beginning Conversations (2015) and Abolishing White Masculinity from Mark Twain to Hiphop: Crisis in Whiteness (2014).   @drstephanyrose     //      facebook.com/stephanyrose    Doug Pagitt is the Executive Director and one of the founders of Vote Common Good. He is also a pastor, author, and social activist. @pagitt   The Common Good Podcast is produced and edited by Daniel Deitrich. @danieldeitrich Our theme music is composed by Ben Grace. @bengracemusic   votecommongood.com votecommongood.com/podcast facebook.com/votecommongood twitter.com/votecommon  

Joining us on this episode are Umar Hakim and Dominique DuBois Gilliard. Umar is a native of Compton, CA, and serves as Executive Director of ILM (Intellect Love Mercy) Foundation. He is the chair of the board of LA Voice, a Faith in Action affiliate. As an active alumnus of the American Muslim Civic Leadership Institute (or AMCLI), Umar is a facilitator and trainer for its national program housed at the USC Center for Religion and Civic Culture.  Dominique is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. His forthcoming book is Subversive Witness: Scripture’s Call to Leverage Privilege, and it will drop on August 24th. An ordained minister, Rev. Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland.  This episode is part of a series recorded in early April during Faith in Action’s Keeping Faith Week of Prophetic Action.  Umar, Dominique, and I have all lived in communities known for escalations of gun violence. In this episode, we shared some of our personal stories, unpacked root causes, and reflected on how addressing the issue of gun violence is a way to live out our collective faith.

Sports can be an uplifting and unifying force for good in our society, but sports can also be exploitive and damaging in many ways. Our panel of hosts discuss the intersection of sports, faith and justice in today's episode of Common Good Faith. Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine's 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” Gilliard's forthcoming book, Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege will be released on August 24, 2021. @DDGilliard     //      facebook.com/dominique.dg.7   Rev. Dr. Stephany Rose Spaulding is pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, associate professor of Women's and Ethnic Studies at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs (UCCS) and former U.S. Senate candidate for the state of Colorado. She holds a B.A. in English from Clark Atlanta University, as well as a M.A. in American Literature and a Ph. D. in American Studies both from Purdue University. She is the author of Recovering from Racism: A Guidebook to Beginning Conversations (2015) and Abolishing White Masculinity from Mark Twain to Hiphop: Crisis in Whiteness (2014).   @drstephanyrose     //      facebook.com/stephanyrose    Doug Pagitt is the Executive Director and one of the founders of Vote Common Good. He is also a pastor, author, and social activist. @pagitt   The Common Good Podcast is produced and edited by Daniel Deitrich. @danieldeitrich Our theme music is composed by Ben Grace. @bengracemusic   votecommongood.com votecommongood.com/podcast facebook.com/votecommongood twitter.com/votecommon

Episode 10:  Disruptive EducatorIn this week's episode we speak with the lovely Jasmine Ward, an educator that teaches in the Los Angeles County Jail System. She talks to us about how she disrupts the peace by courageously voicing how the injustice of many of our systems have impacted the lives of the incarcerated while emphasizing the dignity and the humanity that is often disregarded when thinking about the incarcerated. Our favorite quote by Jasmine is “Disruptive peacemaking is intentionally working toward systems that provide equality and equity for all.” We know that you  will be inspired and informed listening to this episode.Book recommendations: Are Prisons Obsolete by Angela DavisThe New Jim Crow by Michelle AlexanderRethinking Incarceration by Dominique DuBois Gilliard

With nearly two billion Muslims celebrating Ramadan this month, our panel of pastors discuss the spiritual practice of fasting and how it can help connect us to both the Divine and the suffering of our neighbors.  Isaiah 58 describes fasting like this: “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice     and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free     and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry     and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter— when you see the naked, to clothe them,     and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn,     and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you,     and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard." Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine's 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” Gilliard's forthcoming book, Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege will be released on August 24, 2021. @DDGilliard     //      facebook.com/dominique.dg.7   Rev. Dr. Laura Truax is senior pastor of LaSalle Street Church in Chicago and serves on the Seminary Advisory Board at the University of Dubuque. Dr. Truax holds a master of divinity degree from Loyola University and a Doctor of Ministry degree from the joint program of North Park Seminary and Fuller Theological Seminary. She is the author of Undone: When coming apart puts you back together (2013) and Love Let Go: Radical Generosity for the real world (2017) and is part of the Red Letter Christians.    @revtruax     //     facebook.com/laura.truax1   Rev. Dr. Stephany Rose Spaulding is pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, associate professor of Women's and Ethnic Studies at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs (UCCS) and former U.S. Senate candidate for the state of Colorado. She holds a B.A. in English from Clark Atlanta University, as well as a M.A. in American Literature and a Ph. D. in American Studies both from Purdue University. She is the author of Recovering from Racism: A Guidebook to Beginning Conversations (2015) and Abolishing White Masculinity from Mark Twain to Hiphop: Crisis in Whiteness (2014).   @drstephanyrose     //      facebook.com/stephanyrose    Doug Pagitt is the Executive Director and one of the founders of Vote Common Good. He is also a pastor, author, and social activist. @pagitt   The Common Good Podcast is produced and edited by Daniel Deitrich. @danieldeitrich Our theme music is composed by Ben Grace. @bengracemusic   votecommongood.com votecommongood.com/podcast facebook.com/votecommongood twitter.com/votecommon

On episode twenty-three, I'm talking to Susan Cho Van Riesen about her experience as a female lead pastor, Asian American ethnic and cultural concerns, and much more! About Susan: Susan Cho Van Riesen fell in love with Jesus during her undergraduate years at Occidental College. Since then she has been a worker for the Kingdom of God through InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, through being a mom of three wonderful children and in her role the Lead Pastor of the Palo Alto Vineyard Church (https://pavineyard.or). She loves to talk about adoption, parenting a child with special needs, gardening, backyard chickens, and racial justice. Check out her blog: http://showerheadsandhairdryers.blogspot.com. Recommended Resources: "Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice That Restores," by Dominique DuBois Gilliard (https://amzn.to/3vkAzNq) "Prophetic Lament: A Call for Justice in Troubled Times," by Soong-Chan Rah (https://amzn.to/30C9C9T) "United by Faith: The Multiracial Congregation As an Answer to the Problem of Race," by Curtiss Paul DeYoung, Michael O. Emerson, George Yancey, & Karen Chai Kim (https://amzn.to/3cpWpXd) "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind," by Yuval Noah Harari (https://amzn.to/2N9V0eK) "Untangled: Guiding Teenage Girls Through the Seven Transitions into Adulthood," by Lisa Damour (https://amzn.to/3eyXoHk)

*** Remember to subscribe to the Vote Common Good Podcast! ***Every Wednesday on Common Good Faith, our panel of hosts will take a deep dive into Christian faith in America and the ways racism and colonialism have left an ugly legacy that needs to be dismantled if we are to move forward in the way of Jesus.Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won a 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press and was named Outreach Magazine’s 2019 Social Issues Resource of the Year. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at North Park Theological Seminary and serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association. In 2015, the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” Gilliard’s forthcoming book, Subversive Witness: Scripture’s Call to Leverage Privilege will be released on August 24, 2021.@DDGilliard // facebook.com/dominique.dg.7 Rev. Dr. Laura Truax is senior pastor of LaSalle Street Church in Chicago and serves on the Seminary Advisory Board at the University of Dubuque. Dr. Truax holds a master of divinity degree from Loyola University and a Doctor of Ministry degree from the joint program of North Park Seminary and Fuller Theological Seminary. She is the author of Undone: When coming apart puts you back together (2013) and Love Let Go: Radical Generosity for the real world (2017) and is part of the Red Letter Christians. @revtruax // facebook.com/laura.truax1 Rev. Dr. Stephany Rose Spaulding is pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, associate professor of Women’s and Ethnic Studies at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs (UCCS) and former U.S. Senate candidate for the state of Colorado. She holds a B.A. in English from Clark Atlanta University, as well as a M.A. in American Literature and a Ph. D. in American Studies both from Purdue University. She is the author of Recovering from Racism: A Guidebook to Beginning Conversations (2015) and Abolishing White Masculinity from Mark Twain to Hiphop: Crisis in Whiteness (2014).@drstephanyrose // facebook.com/stephanyrose www.votecommongood.com/podcastFacebook.com/votecommongoodTwitter.com/votecommon

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance. In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. Who Will Be a Witness offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book here.) This third conversation discusses Chapter Two of Who Will Be a Witness with minister and author Dominique DuBois Gilliard. Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC's “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC's ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. Gilliard earned a bachelor's degree in African American Studies from Georgia State University and a master's degree in history from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. He also earned an MDiv from North Park Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor teaching Christian ethics, theology, and reconciliation. Follow Dominque on Twitter @DDGilliard and Instagram @dominiquedgilliard Follow Drew Hart on Instagram and Twitter @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on Instagram and Twitter @jarrodmckenna Song: We Fly Free by Julie Kerr

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance. In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. Who Will Be a Witness offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book here.) This third conversation discusses Chapter Two of Who Will Be a Witness with minister and author Dominique DuBois Gilliard. Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC’s “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC’s ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. Gilliard earned a bachelor’s degree in African American Studies from Georgia State University and a master’s degree in history from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. He also earned an MDiv from North Park Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor teaching Christian ethics, theology, and reconciliation. Follow Dominque on Twitter @DDGilliard and Instagram @dominiquedgilliard Follow Drew Hart on Instagram and Twitter @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on Instagram and Twitter @jarrodmckenna Song: We Fly Free by Julie Kerr

The United States has locked up more people in jails and prisons than any other country in the history of mankind. Mass incarceration is now a lucrative business for some. And that needs to change. But what does it mean to Rethink Incarceration? What role does the Church and every one of us play in helping reform and indeed, rethink our approach to mass incarceration. Join Craig and Ernest as today's guest helps us Rethink Incarceration from a Biblical standpoint.   Guest: Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press.  An ordained minister, Dominique DuBois Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC’s ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. Gilliard earned a bachelor’s degree in African American Studies from Georgia State University and a master’s degree in history from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. He also earned an MDiv from North Park Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor teaching Christian ethics, theology, and reconciliation.   Resource:Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating Justice That Restores by Dominique DuBois Gilliard See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The United States has more people locked up in Jails, Prisons, and Detention centers than any other country in the history of the world. This week we are joined by Dominique DuBois Gilliard to help us rethink incarceration.  Mass incarceration has become a lucrative industry, and the criminal justice system is plagued with bias and unjust practices. And the church has unwittingly contributed to the problem. Dominique helps us explore the history and foundation of mass incarceration, examining Christianity’s role in its evolution and expansion. The church has the power to help transform our criminal justice system and Dominique helped us to discover how we can participate in the restorative justice needed to bring authentic rehabilitation, lasting transformation, and healthy reintegration to this broken system. Enjoy!   RESOURCES: Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice That Restores (Book) DominiqueGilliard.com  Rethinking Incarceration Video Curriculum 

Today's episode is led by Zoe, our resident English major/poet, on one of her favorite book series, Harry Potter! Come join us for a conversation on literary styles, the power of storytelling to create empathy, and how privilege can manifest itself even in fantasy worlds. Show Notes: Hogwarts Black Student Union Harry Potter's Bookshelf: The Great Books behind the Hogwarts Adventures by John Granger Article on the research connecting Harry Potter and Empathy Anti-Racist Resources: "I'm Still Here" by Austin Channing Brown (book) "Just Mercy" by Bryan Stevenson (book/movie) "13th" on Netflix (documentary) Be The Bridge with Latasha Morrison (book/workshops & training) "Rethinking Incarceration" by Dominique DuBois Gilliard (book) "The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander "How to be Antiracist" by Ibram Kendi "Me and White Supremacy" by Layla F Saad

Was it nature or nurture that led Dominique DuBois Gilliard to write Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores? Probably both. From his years in the historical black church to his personal encounters with police, Gilliard seemed fated to sound the alarm about the issue of mass incarceration. However, he would soon learn that the best way to gain an audience was with steady, measured allusion to what is.  Dominique DuBois Gilliard's goal isn't to force others to understand the depths of his trauma but rather to ensure no one else has to experience it. And for Gilliard, the only way that happens is through the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Is it possible that prisons are built after examining the stats on SECOND and THIRD grade students' reading scores?Today's episode is a bit longer but WELL WORTH IT. We talk with pastor and writer Dominique Dubois Gilliard about the often-ignored statistics about who is in our prison systems, how they got there, and the implications for Christians in knowing the truth about incarceration.HIs book, Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice That Restores is a nuanced and helpful dive into the reality of our prisons today and how we can begin to rethink criminal justice in the light of the elimination of racial disparities and the true rehabilitation of criminals as ones created in the image of God.Dominique has even provided a video curriculum for groups or individuals to explore his book and the issues around the prison industrial complex. You can access that curriculum here.Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC's “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.”You can find out more information on Dominique via his website.Podcast music by Robert EbbensArtwork by Eric Wright/Metamora Design

The gospel led them into disruption. They told the truth, and the truth set the world on edge. This isn't a podcast for cynics or apologists. It's bound to disappoint you. And that's it. That's the pitch. The Disruptors is hosted by Esau McCaulley and features a series of disruptive conversations with Sho Baraka, Tish Harrison Warren, Jemar Tisby, N.T. Wright, Sheila Wise Rowe, Dominique DuBois Gilliard, and more.

Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Rethinking Incarceration also received a Starred Review from Publisher’s Weekly, and was named as one of the 2019 Resources of the year by Outreach Magazine. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, Huffington Post named Gilliard as one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World."An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He earned two bachelor’s degrees (in African American Studies and History), a master’s degree in History, and a Master of Divinity degree from North Park Seminary; where he currently serves as an adjunct professor. Gilliard also serves as an adjunct professor at Kilns College. Document:Rethinking Incarceration: Advocacy Points & Reforms Episode Questions:• Is my financial institution supporting the prison system and, if so, where can I bank instead? Sign up for Andre's Hope & Hard Pills Newsletter at his website. Catch up with Andre on Twitter, Instagram, & Facebook.Of course, this podcast couldn't happen with out the support of our wonderful patrons! Click here to become a patron of the Hope & Hard Pills Podcast on Patreon for exclusive content.Find out what Alicia is up to at her website and on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.Music: Supa Dred II (Wake Up) & It Doesn't Have To Be This Way by Andre Henry.

What’s the goal of justice? To punish the offender as payment for wrongdoing or to restore the offender to community? We continue our series on power by talking with Dominique DuBois Gilliard about how our anemic vision of justice has created a very broken incarceration system in the United States. Dominique helps us see that even […] The post Rethinking Incarceration with Dominique DuBois Gilliard appeared first on Gravity Leadership.

This is a conversation with Minnesota based Christian spiritual teacher, podcaster and writer Daniel Kent. We discuss political tribalism, the value of Open Theism (openess theology), his new book Confident Humility: Becoming Your Full Self Without Becoming Full of Yourself and much more. Show Notes Daniel Kent (https://twitter.com/thatdankent) Daniel's work: Reknew ministry (https://reknew.org/author/dankentauthor/) Books (https://www.amazon.com/Dan-Kent/e/B00LP6ZJIG/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1) Daniel's new book Confident Humility (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1506451926/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0) Reknew ministry (https://reknew.org/) Historian Kevin Kruse voting rights tweet (https://twitter.com/KevinMKruse/status/1059275330886742022) Christian anarchism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism) Libertarian socialism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism) Jesus Was Not A Socialist article (https://reknew.org/2019/03/jesus-was-not-a-socialist/) Discipleship > Politics response article (https://reknew.org/2019/04/discipleship-greater-than-politics/) What “Man Gave Names to All the Animals” Really Means article (https://reknew.org/2017/06/man-gave-names-animals-really-means/) American political identity article (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-are-shifting-the-rest-of-their-identity-to-match-their-politics/) Noam Chomsky Holocaust controversy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-oV42OMQoE) Artist Nathan Pyle controversy (https://www.newsweek.com/nathan-pyle-abortion-controversy-strange-planet-comic-twitter-tweet-alien-1392353) Anarchy and Christianity by Jacques Ellul (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/274839.Anarchy_and_Christianity) Rethinking Incarceration by Dominique DuBois Gilliard (www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Incarc…veASIN=0830845291) Open Theism theology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism) Reknew Open theism archive (https://reknew.org/tag/open-theism/) God of the Possible by Greg Boyd (https://reknew.org/book/god-of-the-possible-a-biblical-introduction-to-the-open-view-of-god/) The God Who Risks by John Sanders (http://drjohnsanders.com/books/the-god-who-risks-a-theology-of-divine-providence/) Divine immutability theology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immutability_(theology)) Nassim Nicholas Taleb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb) Skin in the Game by Nassim Nicholas Taleb (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/042528462X/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i3) Dr. Michael Gregor (https://drgreger.org/pages/about-us) How To Think by Alan Jacobs (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/551280/how-to-think-by-alan-jacobs/9780451499608/) The Death of Expertise by Thomas Nichols (https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge/dp/0190469412) The Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77832.The_Myth_of_a_Christian_Nation) The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard (https://www.christianbook.com/the-divine-conspiracy-dallas-willard/9780060693336/pd/69333) Jacques Ellul (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/59700.Jacques_Ellul) The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey (www.amazon.com/Habits-Highly-Eff…ful/dp/0743269519) Lord of the Flies by William Golding (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7624.Lord_of_the_Flies)

This is a conversation with Florida based podcaster, activist and Christian thinker Tyler Burns. We discuss the theology and philosophy of justice, what a just world would look like, reparations for slavery and much more. Show Notes Tyler Burns (https://twitter.com/Burns23) Tyler's work: The Witness (https://thewitnessbcc.com/) Pass The Mic podcast (https://thewitnessbcc.com/pass-the-mic/) The Justice Conference (https://www.thejusticeconference.com/podcast/) Wealth Gap Study (https://ips-dc.org/report-ever-growing-gap/) The Case for Reparations article by Ta-Nehisi Coates (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/) Critical Race Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory) Rethinking Incarceration by Dominique DuBois Gilliard (https://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Incarceration-Advocating-Justice-Restores/dp/0830845291?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0830845291) 13th documentary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)) Shane Claiborne (https://www.shaneclaiborne.com/new-page) Historian Ibram X. Kendi (https://www.ibramxkendi.com/about) The Witness Captive Audience article by DeeDee Roe (https://thewitnessbcc.com/captive-audience/) The Color of Compromise by Jemar Tisby (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38915761-the-color-of-compromise) Old Testament Ethics for the People of God by Christopher J. Wright (https://www.ivpress.com/old-testament-ethics-for-the-people-of-god) The Prophetic Imagination by Walter Brueggemann (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/97827.The_Prophetic_Imagination) The Christian Imagination by Willie Jennings (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300171365/christian-imagination) Divided By Faith by Michael O. Emerson, Christian Smith (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/273885.Divided_by_Faith) The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson (http://isabelwilkerson.com/the-book/) How Africa Shaped The Christian Mind by Thomas Oden (https://www.ivpress.com/how-africa-shaped-the-christian-mind) Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/224792/just-mercy-by-bryan-stevenson/9780812984965) Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates (https://ta-nehisicoates.com/books/between-the-world-and-me/) Justice by Nicholas Wolterstorff (https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8680.html) Too Heavy A Yoke by Chanequa Walker-Barnes (http://www.drchanequa.com/books.html) The Divided Mind of the Black Church by Raphael G. Warnock (https://www.amazon.com/Divided-Mind-Black-Church-Ethnicity/dp/0814794467) The Day The Revolution Began by N.T. Wright (https://www.harpercollins.com/9780062334381/the-day-the-revolution-began/) The Crucified God by Jurgen Moltmann (https://www.amazon.com/Crucified-God-Jurgen-Moltmann/dp/150640295X) The Crucifixion by Fleming Rutledge (https://www.eerdmans.com/Products/7534/the-crucifixion.aspx)

In this episode we are continuing with a topic we first explored in episode 46: Post Incarceration Employment and Rehabilitation. Dominique Gilliard and Colleen discuss mass incarceration and prison reform.  Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores.  Dominique and Colleen discuss the many different aspects at play when it comes to issues in our prison system, solutions that can chip away at these injustices and some countries that are having success at restorative justice.   Connect with Dominique!  Check out his website and his book!  Find him on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.     Year of Action Challenge: If you found yourself skeptical of what Dominique was saying I encourage you to head over to the show notes for today's episode and check out his resource from the Walk Towards Love website as well as any of the resources listed from our conversation today.  There's a lot of really great research happening right now in that field. And it's worth researching yourself.   And if you feel spurred to action after this conversation I think a great first step is doing a little research into what banks and companies profit off of our current prison system.  Can you write a letter to your bank?  Choose different brands to avoid contributing to this system?  Or, even better start a campaign to encourage those companies to use the profits they make to help the formerly incarcerated return to society and to employ the formerly incarcerated.  It seems like there are a lot of different solutions to these issues.   Also discussed in this episode: Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores by Dominique Gilliard Washington Post: Five Myths about Incarceration  Walking Towards Love curriculum The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson Prophetic Imagination by Walter Brueggemann The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B DeBois

Dominique DuBois Gilliard explores the history and foundation of mass incarceration. And, reflects on how Christians can pursue justice that restores and reconciles. [Acts 16:16-40] Reflection What is our relationship to the good news when it comes at a cost to our ability to offer participation? How can you take a step in using your privilege to hold systems and structures accountable that dehumanize others?  

Grateful to be joined on the podcast by Dominique Gilliard. His book, Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating For Justice That Restores, is a critical book to read if you have interest in advocating for the poor or interest in what is happening racially in our country. Gilliard says that mass incarceration has become a... The post Dominique DuBois Gilliard-episode 165 appeared first on Anita Lustrea.

Last week, the White House signaled support for bipartisan criminal justice reform, a stark departure from the Justice Department's position just a month earlier. The story of how that happened is a long and winding one, but the issue itself is central to how we understand the Christian faith. Pastor Dominique DuBois Gilliard, author of the provocative RETHINKING INCARCERATION, joins us to share a little bit about why this issue seems to frustrate so many people across the political spectrum and what it has to do with our identity as Christians.

Sponsors: School of Divinity at Gardner-Webb Univ., Campbell Univ. Divinity School, and David Correll of Universal Creative Concepts. Music by Nicolai Heidlas from HookSounds.com.

The US Prison System is one of the great, ignored injustices. Author, pastor and activist Dominique Gilliard joins us to explore God's call to visit those in prison and what that means for Christians today. We explore in depth how the doctrine of...

Guest: Dominique DuBois Gilliard The United States has more people locked up in jails, prisons, and detention centers than any other country in the history of the world. Mass incarceration has become a lucrative industry, and the criminal justice system is plagued with bias and unjust practices. And the church has unwittingly contributed to the problem. The huge elephant in the room is this: how Christians can pursue justice that restores and reconciles, offering creative solutions and highlighting innovative interventions? The church has the power to help transform our criminal justice system. Discover how you can participate in the restorative justice needed to bring authentic rehabilitation, lasting transformation, and healthy reintegration to this broken system. Bio: Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores. He also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC’s “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He earned a bachelor’s degree in African American Studies and History from Georgia State University and a master’s degree in History from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. Dominique earned a Master of Divinity degree from North Park Seminary, where he currently serves as an adjunct professor Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores:  Amazon Connect with Dominique on Facebook, Twitter: @DDGilliard as well as https://dominiquegilliard.com Special Music for this episode was provided by A New Liturgy. A New Liturgy is a project from Aaron Niequist & friends designed to create a moveable, sonic sanctuary.  Each liturgy is a 25 minute journey of music, prayer, scripture, and space that helps open us to The Almighty in any location, season, community, or emotion Tracks include: Emmanuel Parts 1 and 2, and Come Thou Fount from the album A New Liturgy No. 3: Lord Have Mercy.  Find them on Vimeo as well as Spotify as well Instagram and Facebook, Twitter You can also find selections from all our episodes on our Spotify Playlist.  Please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of the show. You'll have access to many perks as well as guaranteeing the future of these conversations; even $1/Month goes so far as this show is 100% listener supported.  http://www.patreon.com/canisaythisatchurch

In this episode, Caleb and Todd talk with Dominique DuBois Gilliard about the state of mass incarceration, how we got there, and what we can do moving forward. ------------- *Guest Links* ------------- Dominique's website ( https://dominiquegilliard.com ) Dominique on Twitter ( https://twitter.com/DDGilliard ) Dominique on Instagram ( https://www.instagram.com/dominiquedgilliard/ ) Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating For Justice That Restores ( https://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Incarceration-Advocating-Justice-Restores/dp/0830845291/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&keywords=dominique+gilliard&qid=1524579359&s=books&sr=1-1 ) ----------------- *Links Mentioned* ----------------- The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander ( https://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&keywords=the+new+jim+crow+mass+incarceration+in+the+age+of+colorblindness&qid=1524579024&sr=8-1 ) Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson ( https://www.amazon.com/Just-Mercy-Story-Justice-Redemption/dp/081298496X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&keywords=just+mercy+bryan+stevenson&qid=1524579061&sr=8-1 ) ------------------------------------------- *The Learner's Corner Recommended Resource* ------------------------------------------- The 13th ( https://www.google.com/url?cd=3&esrc=s&q=&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.netflix.com%2Ftitle%2F80091741&usg=AOvVaw3oFM_indXrjPzFni2u0xFl&ved=0ahUKEwiXxZTmi9PaAhVDzoMKHbIrAysQFghRMAI ) ----------------- *What We Learned* ----------------- *Mass incarceration:* a massive system of racial and social control; the process by which people are swept into the criminal justice system, branded criminals and felons, locked up for longer periods of time than other countries, and then they are released into permanent second-class citizen. *The state of mass incarceration* *How did we get to where we are today?* * School to prison pipeline * The handling of mental health * Private prisons * Immigration arrests *Justice is not about distributing punishment, but about reconciling and reintegration.* *Restoration, not punishment, is at the heart of God's justice.* *In restorative justice, crime is never only committed against an individual, but against the community.* *Every church should be present in one of four ways:* * Prevention * Ministry to the incarcerated * Ministry to the families of the incarcerated * Reentry process *What can the average person do?* * Go visit a prison * Find your area of passion as it concerns this conversation * Volunteer to be a mentor for kids ----------------- *Quotes to Tweet* ----------------- "Our criminal justice system has devolved, not evolved." - Dominique DuBois Gilliard Click to Tweet ( https://ctt.ec/0UCeb ) "Justice is not about distributing punishment, but about reconciling and reintegration." - Dominique DuBois Gilliard Click to Tweet ( https://ctt.ec/6hH4U ) "Restoration, not punishment, is at the heart of God's justice." - Dominique DuBois Gilliard Click to Tweet ( https://ctt.ec/H38Dq ) "In restorative justice, crime is never only committed against an individual, but against the community." - Dominique DuBois Gilliard Click to Tweet ( https://ctt.ec/x38Gn ) --------------------------- *New Episode Every Tuesday* --------------------------- Thank you for listening to the Learner's Corner Podcast. We hope you'll join us for next week's episode. Until next time, keep learning and keep growing.

Welcome to episode 1 of season 3 of the @ Sea Podcast. My guest is Dominique DuBois Gilliard. Dominique is the director of racial righteousness and reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice Initiative of Evangelical Covenant Church. He is also the author of Rethinking Incarceration, which is the focus of my conversation with him. We pick up as […]

Support the show: https://www.loveneverfailsus.com/donateSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dominique DuBois Gilliard is back to talk about how power works in systems and structures, and how we can leverage privilege in subversive ways on behalf the the marginalized and oppressed in faithfulness to Scripture. These are the themes of Dominique's new book Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege. This was a Gravity Commons […] The post Dominique Dubois Gilliard: Leveraging Privilege for Kingdom Justice appeared first on Gravity Leadership.

What's the goal of justice? To punish the offender as payment for wrongdoing or to restore the offender to community? We continue our series on power by talking with Dominique DuBois Gilliard about how our anemic vision of justice has created a very broken incarceration system in the United States. Dominique helps us see that even […] The post Rethinking Incarceration with Dominique DuBois Gilliard appeared first on Gravity Leadership.

Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC’s “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC’s ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. With your Hosts Shuree Rivera and Roy A Dockery Support the show ( https://www.paypal.me/onfaithministries ) (https://www.paypal.me/onfaithministries)

As a special bonus for our listeners, we have created a series to commemorate Inverse Podcast co-host Dr Drew Hart's brand new book *Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism For God's Justice, Love and Deliverance.* In these additional episodes we will interview friends and co-workers to discuss chapter by chapter Drew's new book. These conversations were recorded in community with friends from around the world as past of Inverse's ongoing work to create formation experiences that deepen our witness to God's justice, love and deliverance. *Who Will Be a Witness* offers a vision for communities of faith to organize for deliverance and justice in their neighborhoods, states, and nation as an essential part of living out the call of Jesus. Drew provides incisive insights into Scripture and history, along with illuminating personal stories, to help us identify how the witness of the church has become mangled by Christendom, white supremacy, and religious nationalism. He provides a wide range of options for congregations seeking to give witness to Jesus' ethic of love for and solidarity with the vulnerable. At a time when many feel disillusioned and distressed, Drew calls the church to action, offering a way forward that is deeply rooted in the life and witness of Jesus. Drew's testimony is powerful, personal, and profound, serving as a compass that points the church to the future and offers us a path toward meaningful social change and a more faithful witness to the way of Jesus. (Buy Drew's new book [here](http://https://www.amazon.com/Who-Will-Be-Witness-Deliverance/dp/1513806580/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=who+will+be+a+witness&qid=1599640684&s=books&sr=1-1).) This third conversation discusses Chapter Two of Who Will Be a Witness with minister and author Dominique DuBois Gilliard. Dominique DuBois Gilliard is the Director of Racial Righteousness and Reconciliation for the Love Mercy Do Justice (LMDJ) initiative of the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). He is the author of Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice that Restores, which won the 2018 Book of the Year Award for InterVarsity Press. Gilliard also serves on the board of directors for the Christian Community Development Association and Evangelicals for Justice. In 2015, he was selected as one of the ECC's “40 Under 40” leaders to watch, and the Huffington Post named him one of the “Black Christian Leaders Changing the World.” An ordained minister, Gilliard has served in pastoral ministry in Atlanta, Chicago, and Oakland. He was executive pastor of New Hope Covenant Church in Oakland, California and also served in Oakland as the associate pastor of Convergence Covenant Church. He was also a campus minister at North Park University and the racial righteousness director for ECC's ministry initiatives in the Pacific Southwest Conference. Gilliard earned a bachelor's degree in African American Studies from Georgia State University and a master's degree in history from East Tennessee State University, with an emphasis on race, gender, and class in the United States. He also earned an MDiv from North Park Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor teaching Christian ethics, theology, and reconciliation. Follow Dominque on [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/DDGilliard) @DDGilliard and [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/dominiquedgilliard/) @dominiquedgilliard Follow Drew Hart on [Instagram](http://http://instagram.com/druhart) and [Twitter](http://https://twitter.com/druhart) @druhart. Follow Jarrod McKenna on [Instagram](http://https://www.instagram.com/jarrodmckenna) and [Twitter](http://jarrodmckenna) @jarrodmckenna Song: *We Fly Free* by Julie Kerr