CLEVELAND, OHIO: From the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, an in-depth and fun conversation led by Donna Friedman and Mike Uva on any and all topics related to clean water, wastewater treatment, stormwater management, and the people, projects, and programs serving Lake Erie and our local waterways and communities.Â
Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District
Send us a textImagine standing in downtown Cleveland and gazing at Lake Erie just blocks away, yet feeling disconnected by an intimidating landscape of highways and parking lots. This frustrating paradox has defined Cleveland's relationship with its waterfront for decades.The Shore to Core to Shore Initiative is an ambitious and promising effort to reconnect Cleveland's downtown with Lake Erie and the Cuyahoga River. Jessica Trivisonno, Senior Advisor for Major Projects for Mayor Bibb, and Drew Crawford, Senior Director of Planning for Downtown Cleveland, give us an update on the transformative plans that will finally bridge these divides.Ready to imagine a Cleveland where you can seamlessly walk from Tower City to the riverfront, or from Public Square to the lake? Construction begins in 2027, but the vision is taking shape now. Listen in to understand how Cleveland is finally poised to embrace its greatest natural assets.
Send us a textThe Doan Brook Watershed Partnership (DBWP) and U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) are collaborating on a stream-restoration project to address wall deterioration, improve fish habitat, and restore natural stream function through Cleveland's Cultural Gardens along MLK Boulevard. Sections of the channel's stone walls, built during the Works Progress Administration, have broken apart, and local experts are working to balance historic preservation with ecological restoration.In this discussion, Emily Kao (DBWP) and Jenn Brancho (USACE) describe their organizations' measured approach to planning a revitalized urban waterway. We learn how channelization has dramatically altered the stream's natural functions, and how the partnership can deliver a comprehensive restoration strategy that honors both ecological needs and cultural heritage.
Send us a textClevelanders might not know about a massive concrete structure hidden within Lakeview Cemetery. Standing 89 feet tall, Lakeview Dam represents both a marvel of 1970s engineering and a relic of outdated water-management approaches. Stormwater Program Manager Kim Colich gives some background on this imposing structure and explains how modern modeling and technology allow for different flood-control solutions today.Beyond its engineering significance, the dam has gained fame as a filming location for Captain America: Winter Soldier and attracts curious tour groups. But its future remains an open question as water-management professionals balance flood-control needs with ecological goals and financial sustainability.Whether you're fascinated by Cleveland history, engineering challenges, or environmental restoration, this look at one of our city's most impressive yet least-known structures reveals how our relationship with water continues to evolve.Revisit our interview with Elaine Marsh on the Gorge Dam removal. Learn more about the Doan Brook Restoration Project near Horseshoe Park at https://www.neorsd.org/doanbrook.
Send us a textHorticulturalist Joe Dwyer is part of the Sewer District's Stormwater Inspection & Maintenance (SWIM) team. "A large shade tree can take up to 4,000 gallons of stormwater throughout a year," Dwyer says, but problems with improper tree planting can reveal themselves often just as trees are reaching their prime environmental benefits. Joe highlights the importance of proper tree maintenance to support the District's stormwater-management work. We also discuss how trees communicate through underground fungal networks, bringing "winter interest" to our project sites, and the potential for beautifying roadsides with wildflowers.Whether you're a casual observer of neighborhood greenery or an aspiring horticulturalist, you'll gain a deeper appreciation for the trees working silently around us.For further reading:Silverstein, Shel. The Giving Tree. Harper & Row, 1964.Simard, Suzanne. Finding the Mother Tree. Knopf, 2021. Wikipedia. "Crown Shyness." Last modified October 13, 2024. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_shyness
Send us a textBedford, Ohio native Eddie Olshansky operates Trashfish, a volunteer organization focused on exploring and cleaning up the Cuyahoga River. Eddie talks about his personal journey, the importance of community involvement in environmental stewardship, the challenges of plastic pollution, and his ongoing efforts to improve the health of our local waterways.Follow Eddie on Instagram @trashfish_cle for updates!
Send us a textKen Duplay is Chief Financial Officer of the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, and in this episode he shares insights from his 21-year career on the strategic art of setting sewer and stormwater rates, our meticulous five-year planning cycle, and managing debt. It's a thought-provoking look at the financial strategies that keep our essential infrastructure running smoothly.
What do horse riding and leading a utility have in common? Sewer District CEO Kyle Dreyfuss-Wells shares her top projects of 2024, the Cleveland bonds that fuel her enthusiasm, and insights that will resonate with leaders from all walks of life. The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District manages both wastewater and stormwater systems and plays a crucial role in restoring local waterways. We delve into the challenges of urban water infrastructure, the importance of partnerships, and the delicate balance needed to address environmental and community concerns. Looking to 2025, we consider the crucial role of leadership at the US EPA and Department of Energy, greenhouse gas and "forever chemicals," and the power of mindful communication in building community.Acronyms used in this episode:CERCLA - Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980. The Act provides for liability, compensation, cleanup, and emergency response for hazardous substances released into the environment and the cleanup of inactive hazardous waste disposal sites.PFAS - Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances. Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA) is a synthetic chemical that's part of PFAS chemicals.
Cutting-edge modeling techniques are being developed in an exciting collaboration between the NEORSD and Massachusetts Institute of Technology that focuses on pluvial flooding, promising a more nuanced view of water flow across urban landscapes.This "rain on mesh" approach divides an urban topography into small, data-rich segments, unveiling a new level of detail in analyzing surface runoff, infiltration, and evaporation. We explore the strategic use of various models, from the importance of selecting appropriate tools for specific tasks to the potential for these solutions to be adopted by other cities.
Mayor Annette Blackwell of Maple Heights and Keith McClintock, NEORSD Manager of Watershed Funding Programs discuss the transformative impacts of infrastructure funding in local communities. Securing grants and loans have paved the way for municipal growth and enhanced quality of life for Maple Heights residents, and the Sewer District's Member Community Infrastructure Program (MCIP) can help communities address aging sewer systems and stormwater management.Learn more about the MCIP here
Ever wondered how a podcast about sewers came to be? In this episode, roles are reversed, with our Public Information Specialist Jess Shutty interviewing pod hosts Donna Friedman and Mike Uva on the evolution of Clean Water Works from its early print format to the dynamic podcast it is today. Clean Water Works has become a venue for showcasing the Sewer District and making water-related topics accessible to a wider audience. Balancing technical expertise with public communication is key, and our conversation with Communications Manager John Gonzalez reveals how creativity and empathy shape our social-media strategy. embracing humor and pop culture to make our content relatable. These efforts have allowed us to capture our employees' diverse stories and foster a more informed and engaged community. Listen to Mike's rock band here.
Kristin Hall is Executive Director of Cuyahoga Soil and Water Conservation District. She explains the distinctions between natural and urban environments in managing stormwater and the significance of these practices in preventing urban flooding and safeguarding water quality. We also discuss the Sewer District's own Regional Stormwater Management Program, the impact of severe weather events, and the importance of our storage tunnels. Stormwater Awareness Week takes place October 1 - 7 and you can learn more at cuyahogaswcd.org
What happens when a mechanical engineering grad steps into the world of wastewater treatment? Travis Pitts is Superintendent at the Sewer District's Westerly Wastewater Treatment Plant. From his humble beginnings as a plant operator to his leadership role at Westerly, Travis describes the transition from shift work to management duties, the job's impact on family life, and his team's responsibility for meeting EPA permits. Amid Travis's candid anecdotes, we explore the technical side of wastewater treatment, the complexities of solids handling, centrifuges, and maintaining a delicate biosphere of bacteria to "accelerate natural processes."
Ever wondered if you're recycling correctly? Matt Walters is the Special Recycling Programs Coordinator for the Cuyahoga County Solid Waste District (CCSWD), and in this Clean Water Works he sheds light on the intricacies of recycling items like old batteries, motor oil, and even fireworks, and emphasizes the importance of environmentally-friendly alternatives. Discover the crucial role that proper disposal plays in environmental health.Given the direct connection between the waste stream and water quality, the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District has a long-standing partnership with the CCSWD. We break down household recycling in Cuyahoga County, debunking myths and clarifying what truly belongs in your recycling bin. Matt also takes us through the material sorting processes and highlights the economic and environmental rewards of getting recycling right.Visit cuyahogarecycles.org for more info on where and how to dispose of your hazardous household items.
SANDUSKY, OH: Anything you want to know about stormwater management you can learn at the Ohio Stormwater Conference. This year's event was held at Kalahari Resort in Sandusky, Ohio, with attendees engaging in cutting-edge discussions on environmental issues and emerging technologies. Discover the unique networking opportunities presented at the OSC, which can benefit students and others looking to enter the field. Learn more about the annual Ohio Stormwater Conference.This episode's guests:David Ritter, Manager of Watershed Technical Support, NEORSDAngela Brodie, NOWCorps Program DirectorCallie Sommers, Cuyahoga Soil & Water Conservation DistrictNina White, Tinker's Creek Watershed PartnersShawn Robinson, Environmental Compliance Inspector, NEORSDErica Matheny, Executive Director, Tinker's Creek Watershed PartnersHarry Stark, Director of Public Services, City of AuroraAllison Stark, Student, Kent State University Kevin Jehl, Advanced Drainage SystemsMike Cook, Advanced Drainage Systems
What if a local river, once notorious for pollution and even catching fire, could become transformed into a thriving ecosystem? We explore the Cuyahoga's incredible decades-long progress with Elaine Marsh, a watershed specialist with Summit Metro Parks and co-founder of Friends of the Crooked River. Elaine shares her passion for environmental advocacy, a history of the Gorge Dam, and the vital importance of its removal for the health of local fish and macroinvertebrate habitats and our communities.For more information, including a rendering of the Gorge Dam leave-behind, visit Summit Metro Parks's "Free the Falls" website.Learn more about Friends of the Crooked River.
Cities with aging infrastructure face an uphill battle with regard to stormwater management, a challenge underscored by recent calamitous weather events. Sewer District engineer George Remias illustrates how a warming atmosphere acts like a sponge, soaking up more moisture and leading to intense rainfalls. Given the potential for the weather's damaging impacts on urban centers, we discuss the vital role of monitoring tools in forecasting rain events and planning resiliency projects, and the value of collaboration among agencies to safeguard our communities.
Have you ever wondered how your green thumb can help the environment? Stormwater Technical Specialist Chris Hartman explains how to install and maintain a thriving rain garden to help control stormwater runoff: from choosing a site and garden size, to selecting the right plants and methods. Plus, you can earn a credit towards your stormwater fee!Rain Garden Manual for Homeowners [PDF]Before you dig:Ohio Utilities Protection Service (OUPS)
Who knew that dog poop could contribute to water pollution? That's the topic of our conversation with NEORSD Asset Analyst Christina Toth and Biologist Morgan Koelliker. Christina's dog, Esri, serves as the mascot of the Sewer District's Pick Up Poop! (P.U.P.) program, and Morgan explains how the bacteria in dog waste is especially hazardous for humans and other dogs. Join us as we discuss the significance of responsible pet ownership and its profound impact on water quality in densely populated areas like Cleveland.
Have you ever stopped to consider how deeply engineering is woven into every aspect of your daily life? On the heels of National Engineers Week, we're tapping into the essence of innovation and the critical role engineers play.Government Affairs Specialist Angela Jones and Manager of Design Rick Vincent share their favorite engineering projects and the fulfillment that comes from contributing to the well-being of our communities and engaging with the public. We also discuss programs geared towards inspiring a new generation of engineering enthusiasts.
Oversalt much? A conversation with Amy Roskilly of Cuyahoga Soil & Water Conservation District and Natalie Gertz-Young of Lake Soil & Water Conservation District on road salt use and overuse, and the impacts to our water resources.The NEORSD supports our local Soil and Water Conservation Districts that participate in educational outreach related to water quality, stormwater management, and watershed management. These agencies offer stormwater-compliance services to communities and lead conservation actions. Cuyahoga Soil & Water Conservation DistrictLake Soil & Water Conservation District
What's the most dangerous job at the Sewer District? Sewer District safety experts Carla DeSantis and Robin Halperin discuss the dangers inherent to wastewater treatment, what led them to pursue safety as their vocation, and approaches to building "safety culture" in the workplace. Plus: the ins and outs of lock-out/tag-out!
The costs of wastewater treatment and maintaining our vast sewer and stormwater systems fall almost entirely on our ratepayers. With many residents struggling to pay their bills, utilities must address affordability and also clearly communicate the services and benefits those utilities provide. We talk with Chief Administrative Officer Constance T. Haqq about the NEORSD's efforts to enroll eligible customers in its cost-saving programs.Learn more about NEORSD Utility Assistance Resource Fairs
Based in Cleveland, Ohio, Drink Local Drink Tap is an international non-profit organization focused on solving water equity and quality issues. Executive Director and Founder Erin Huber joins us to discuss her group's impactful projects in Uganda and the importance of finding even small, meaningful tasks to help us engage with water issues.Visit https://drinklocaldrinktap.org/ to learn more.
What is an "area of concern," or AOC? Hannah Boesinger of the Ohio Lake Erie Commission talks about projects to restore fish habitat and address the "worst of the worst" legacy-pollution issues in the Cuyahoga River and other Great Lakes waterways.For more information about the Lake Erie Commission, visit https://lakeerie.ohio.gov/Note: the Ashtabula AOC was delisted in 2021:https://www.epa.gov/great-lakes-aocs/ashtabula-river-aoc-delisted
We asked Cuyahoga County Executive Chris Ronayne to join us for a discussion of his vision for a Freshwater Institute, some experiences from his days as City Planner, biking the Towpath Trail, and lessons learned from Lake Erie surfers and bird enthusiasts alike.
We welcome Jenn Grieser and Sean McDermott from Cleveland Metroparks for an overview of our remarkable park system, restoration projects that we've partnered on, as well as ecology, conservation—and ziplines!Learn more about the Metroparks at https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/Here's a great new video on the Watershed Stewardship Center in Parma, OH.Want to get involved? Learn about the Watershed Volunteer Program here.
Lili Fikter is the Education and Interpretation Coordinator at the Greater Cleveland Aquarium. She gives an overview of the Great Lakes and the Aquarium's work to make connections between their fish and animals and the local watersheds that support those species. Learn more about the Aquarium at www.greaterclevelandaquarium.com
We hope you locals have Saturday, September 23 on your calendars. It's our annual in-person "open house," the CLEAN WATER FEST in Cuyahoga Heights, Ohio. Community Relations Specialist Jessica Shutty stopped by to talk about what to expect at this year's Fest. Visit cleanwaterfest.com for a complete schedule and info.
CarrieAnne McConnell is Superintendent at the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District's Westerly Wastewater Treatment Plant. She has spent much of her life in and around water- and wastewater-treatment facilities . . . and even had her wedding photos taken at one! Westerly is undergoing several construction projects to help it treat more wastewater flow during big rain events. CarrieAnne talks about those upgrades, the different types of wastewater-treatment processes that plants can utilize, the very worst of the bad smells, and the need to find and welcome a new generation of workers into this critical industry.This episode includes a discussion of trickling filters and activated sludge, two different processes used to treat wastewater. Listeners unfamiliar with the basics of wastewater treatment may also want to check out our earlier episodes "How does a Wastewater Treatment Plant Work?" and "The Science of Sludge".Acronyms used in this episode:CSOTF: combined sewer overflow treatment facilityMGD: million gallons per dayCE-HRT: chemically-enhanced high rate treatmentBOD: biological oxygen demand, or the amount of dissolved oxygen needed by aerobic organisms to break down organic material in wastewaterTSS: total suspended solids, a measurement of the weight of suspended particles (i.e. not dissolved) in a water sample, when they are trapped by a filter
We often get asked about our tunnel-construction projects throughout the city—and with good reason. Engineer Doug Lopata discusses Project Clean Lake and his work overseeing the design of massive tunnels that reduce sewer overflows, basement flooding, and pollution in our waterways. Next time you see him at a picnic, ask him about the tunnels.
Cleveland native Justin Telep loves to fish. It makes sense then that he loves his job as a Field Biologist at the Sewer District. Justin and his team study the health of aquatic organisms in area streams to determine water quality. He talks about a NEORSD project to re-introduce native fish into a once-polluted Plum Creek. We also discuss fishing opportunities on Lake Erie ("the walleye capital of the world") and Justin shares an easy recipe for crispy fish tacos.Some acronyms used in this episode:IBI: Index of Biotic Integrity, an indicator of the health of a fish communityMIwb: Modified Index of Well-Being, another method of determining the health of the fish communityICI: Invertebrate Community Index, which measures the health of bugs in the stream
Two of our favorite IT guys, Adam Bruncak and Francis Cung, stop by for a chat about how Information Technology impacts all aspects of the Sewer District's work. We also discuss ChatGPT, professional billiards, and the importance of "Ctrl+Alt+Delete."Acronyms and references used in this episode:WQIS: Water Quality and Industrial SurveillanceNES: Nintendo Entertainment System
Samira Malone is Director of the Cleveland Tree Coalition. We discuss the multiple benefits trees provide in urban settings, the CTC's efforts to restore Cleveland's diminished tree canopy, and "the right tree for the right place." The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District serves on the Coalition's Executive Committee. Visit www.clevelandtrees.org for more info!
Kristen Buccier is the Manager of our Stormwater Inspection & Maintenance team, brilliantly acronymed SWIM. We talked to Kristen about the thousands of stormwater assets the NEORSD inspects and maintains. Her team walks area streams to document flooding, erosion, and water-quality issues, so that critical repairs and projects can be planned. We learn about spherical imagery (think "stream inspector's version of Google Earth"), Green Infrastructure practices, and beaver-dam dilemmas.
SANDUSKY, OH: Mike and Donna attend the 16th annual Ohio Stormwater Conference and speak with stormwater enthusiasts on a variety of topics including: groundwater rights, the different types of wetlands, invasive species, and the impacts of road salt on local waterways.This episode's guests:Erica Matheny, Deputy Executive Director, Tinker's Creek Watershed PartnersHarry Stark, Executive Director, Tinker's Creek Watershed Partners Melissa Morrow, City of ParmaJulio Olivarez, The Nature ConservancyKatie Burnsworth, Erie Conservation DistrictPatti Donnellan, Lorain Soil & Water Conservation DistrictJared Bartley, Cuyahoga Soil & Water Conservation DistrictNichole Lopez, Summit Soil & Water Conservation District Stephanie Deibel, Summit Soil & Water Conservation District
Frank Greenland is a professional engineer and a key architect of two of the Sewer District's most ambitious and important programs: Project Clean Lake (which reduces sewer overflows into the environment) and the Regional Stormwater Management Program (addressing erosion, flooding, and water-quality issues along local streams). We learn how an early love of fishing led Frank to pursue a career in cleaning up Cleveland's waterways, and he shares his thoughts on the 1969 river fire, more-recent basement-flooding problems, public speaking, and tasty jams.
Donna and Mike met up with Sewer District CEO Kyle Dreyfuss-Wells for a conversation that touched on a wide range of topics, from her early interest in public service, to watersheds and climate change, to dyslexia, hip hop, and running in the dark.
Heather Elmer of Chagrin River Partners and Derek Schafer of the West Creek Conservancy join us for a discussion of watersheds, their importance, and ways their organizations and others work to protect local waterways.
A follow-up to our conversation with Environmental Services Supervisor Scott Broski, on the Sewer District's involvement in tracking the spread of COVID-19 in Northeast Ohio, using wastewater samples.
In addition to working as a Plant Utility Maintenance Person (a "PUMP") at our Southerly Wastewater Treatment Center, history buff Danny Schoeffler is a native of that neighborhood. He talks about growing up in the close-knit village of Cuyahoga Heights and shares a bit of history of the Southerly plant and the area's development from farmland to industry. Also: work hazards and superhuman strength (Marvel and otherwise).Acronyms used in this episode:H²S - Hydrogen Sulfide aka "Sewer Gas"
NEORSD Superintendent of Environmental Services Scott Broski gives his insights into the February 3, 2023, train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, and explains the emergency-response protocols for these kinds of accidents. Acronyms used in this episode:WQIS - Water Quality & Industrial Surveillance (NEORSD)SCBA - Self Contained Breathing ApparatusODNR - Ohio Department of Natural ResourcesLEPC - Local Emergency Planning CommitteeEPCRA - Emergency Planning and Community Right-To-Know ActEHS - Extremely Hazardous Substances PPE - Personal Protective EquipmentFor more information on Environmental Services, visit: https://www.neorsd.org/environmental
There's a lot happening hundreds of feet below Cleveland's surface. NEORSD Construction Supervisor Robert Auber explains the ins and outs of tunnel excavation in various types of rock and the particular mindset required for a career working underground.
Bradshaw Rescola contemplates worst-case scenarios for organizations and explains how the Sewer District investigates and safeguards against vulnerabilities and harm.Acronyms used in this episode:SWOT: An analysis of Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and ThreatsCIA: Certified Internal AuditorCFE: Certified Fraud ExaminerNIST: National Institute of Standards and Technology, which provides a privacy framework for cybersecurity
Analytical Services is the name of the Sewer District's laboratory, where water samples are tested for various toxicants and characteristics. Supervising Chemist Debmalya Bhattacharyya explains the lab's testing methods for determining what's in the wastewater and making sure that the treated water is safe to re-introduce into Lake Erie. Some acronyms and terms used in this episode:NPDES: National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System, which regulates point sources that discharge pollutants to waters of the United States. WET: Whole Effluent Toxicity, a lab test that measure wastewater's effects on certain organisms' ability to survive, grow, and reproduce.ICP: Inductive Coupled Plasma Spectroscopy, a technique that measures and identifies elements within a sample based on the ionization of those elements.GCMS: Gas Chromatography Mass SpectroscopyMass Spec: short for Mass Spectrometer, an instrument that can measure the mass-to-charge ratio (m/z) of one or more molecules present in a sample.PFAS: Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances. qPCR: Quantitative Polymerase Chain Reaction, a technology used for measuring nucleic acid in DNA and RNA. NELAP: National Environmental Laboratory Accreditation ProgramQA/QC: Quality Assurance and Quality Control
In this bonus Clean Water Works segment, Donna talks with residents attending a design workshop for the Doan Brook Restoration at Horseshoe Lake. Hear their ideas for enhancements to the design architects' proposed stream alignments at this popular nature destination. For more information, visit the our website.
Kathryn has long worked in the thick of wastewater treatment. And I mean the actual thick: the solids and sludge that are all part of the treatment process. Enterprise Biosolids and Residuals Superintendent Kathryn Crestani talks with Mike and Donna about how a wastewater treatment plant works (following up on episode 8), how solids are separated out from wastewater, and what the Sewer District does with all that "sludge."
Denario Jones explains the basics of wastewater treatment and tells us what it's like to work as a wastewater plant operator (WPO). For more info on working at the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District, visit neorsd.org/careersSome acronyms used in this episode:WPO-IT - Wastewater Plant Operator in TrainingWQIS - Water Quality & Industrial SurveillanceMGD - A measurement of how many Millions of Gallons per DayWEFTEC - The Water Environment Federation's annual Technical Exhibition and Conference OWEA - Ohio Water Environment AssociationEMSC - Environmental & Maintenance Services Center
Learn how the Sewer District uses maps and other data to power its Regional Stormwater Management Program. Watershed Programs's Jessica Cotton explains what Geographic Information Systems can do and highlights some recent Green Infrastructure projects in Cleveland.
In this Halloween-ish bonus episode, Environmental Specialist Sarah Rehner explains how the Sewer District takes bat and other wildlife habitats into consideration when planning its construction projects.
In Part 2 of our talk with Dr. Larick, we hear about his favorite “secret places” for Cleveland explorers. We also discuss the importance of trees, learn how streams can both divide and connect communities, and answer the question of whether or not to replace a failing dam.
"Working with rain is better than fighting it." Dr. Roy Larick is an archaeologist who investigates the weave of natural and human forces in building inner-ring urban landscapes. In Part 1 of our interview, Dr. Larick discusses his work to identify buried ravines under Cleveland and show how some flooding issues could be remedied by reconnecting to those stream systems. We talk about old maps and more modern methods of discovery, and Dr. Larick shares a brief history of Kingsbury Run and the Sidaway Bridge.Read more: Here's a 2019 Plain Dealer feature on Dr. Larick.Here's a Cleveland Historical Society feature on the Sidaway Bridge.