Equiosity

This is part 2 of our conversation with Ken Ramirez. For over thirty years Ken was the executive Vice President overseeing animal care and training at the Shedd Aquarium. He is now the Executive Vice President and chief training officer of Karen Pryor Clicker Training. Those are impressive sounding titles, but they don't come close to describing Ken's talent as a trainer and teacher. Dominique and I were delighted to be able to spend an afternoon with Ken shortly after this year's Clicker Expo. Dominique had a long list of questions for Ken relating to a talk he gave at the Expo. In this episode the discussion centers around treatless clicks, keep going signals, clickless treats, and end of session signals.

You know you're in for a great conversation when the guest for this week's episode is Ken Ramirez. For over thirty years Ken was the Executive Vice President Overseeing Animal Care and Training at the Shedd Aquarium. He is now the Executive Vice President and Chief Training Officer of Karen Pryor Clicker Training. Those are impressive sounding titles, but they don't come close to describing Ken's talent as a trainer and teacher. Dominique and I were delighted to be able to spend an afternoon with Ken shortly after this year's Clicker Expo. Dominique had a list of questions about keep going signals, treatless clicks and end-of-session strategies. We begin with why Ken describes advanced training as the basics done really well. Ken shares some great stories and then we jump into a discussion of keep going signals.

This is Part 5 of a five part series with Dr. Susan Friedman. Susan is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals). She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org It's a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior. Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty. Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement. In Part 1 Susan reviewed with us the basics of fixed and variable schedules. She ended with a question about how you get behavior to vary when you are using a continuous reinforcement schedule. We carried that question over into Part 2. In Part 2 we took a deeper dive into continuous reinforcement schedules. We considered how you get behavior to vary without using a variable reinforcement schedule. Susan talked about a moving away from transactional training to training with assent. Part 3 Susan helped us to understand schedules of co-variation. She defined conjugate and synchronous schedules and gave some very practical examples, especially as it relates to husbandry procedures that may involve some discomfort. Again, she discussed what assent looks like and what it means when an animal says no. What conditions must be present for a conjugate schedule to begin and what conditions mean that the training should stop? Part 4 was very much about working in teams. Especially when you are working on husbandry procedures that the animal may not be comfortable with, you need to notice and respond appropriately to the subtle “no answers” an animal presents. When one person is in charge of feeding and the other is handling the procedure, effective communication needs to be there. At the Cheyenne Mountain zoo where Susan does a great deal of consulting work, the goal of each training session is not getting the procedure done. It is having a willing animal for the next session. She talked about the difference between empathy and compassion, and somehow that took us to parenting styles and what to do when a baby cries. Now in Part 5 of this conversation we'll be talking about non-linear analysis. Susan talks about the shift in focus from proximal to distant antecedents. She defines what this means and shares several stories that really help us to understand these concepts. When you're faced with unwanted behavior an empowering question is to ask: if he did what was wanted, what would this individual be giving up? In other words what other contingencies are reinforcing (or perhaps not reinforcing) the behavior such that, from the handler's perspective, an unwanted behavior emerges. If we could make a change in these other contingencies, we might not have to deal with this unwanted behavior. Susan's stories make it very clear what this means and how to go about designing behavior change plans that take the distant antecedents into account. My favorite example involves the penguins at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo.

This is the fourth in a five part series with Dr Susan Friedman. The general topic is schedules of reinforcement. Susan is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals). She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org It's a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior. Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty. Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement. In Part 1 Susan reviewed with us the basics of fixed and variable schedules. She ended with a question about how you get behavior to vary when you are using a continuous reinforcement schedule. We carried that question over into Part 2. In Part 2 we took a deeper dive into continuous reinforcement schedules. We considered how you get behavior to vary without using a variable reinforcement schedule. Susan talked about moving away from transactional training to training with assent. Part 3 Susan helped us to understand schedules of co-variation. She defined conjugate and synchronous schedules and gave some very practical examples, especially as it relates to husbandry procedures that may involve some discomfort. Again, she discussed what assent looks like and what it means when an animal says no. What conditions must be present for a conjugate schedule to begin and what conditions mean that the training should stop? Part 4 is very much about working in teams. Especially when you are working on husbandry procedures that the animal may not be comfortable with, you need to notice and respond appropriately to the subtle signals an animal presents. When one person is in charge of feeding and the other is handling the procedure, effective communication needs to be there. At the Cheyenne Mountain zoo where Susan does a great deal of consulting work, the goal of each training session is not getting the procedure done. It is having a willing animal for the next session. In this episode we talk about different magnitudes of reinforcers and the importance of making a distinction in the reinforcers that are available in order for a choice to be made. Susan talks about the difference between empathy and compassion, and somehow that takes us to parenting styles and a question from Dominique about what to do when a baby cries.

We're talking with Dr Susan Friedman about schedules of reinforcement. Susan is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals). She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org. It's a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior. Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty. Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement. In Part 1 Susan reviewed with us the basics of fixed and variable schedules. She ended with a question about how you get behavior to vary when you are using a continuous reinforcement schedule. That's where we began in Part 2. In Part 2 we took a deeper dive into continuous reinforcement schedules. We considered how you get behavior to vary without using a variable reinforcement schedule. Susan talked about a moving away from transactional training to training with assent. Part 3 Susan helps us to understand schedules of co-variation. She defines conjugate and synchronous schedules and gives some very practical examples, especially as it relates to husbandry procedures that may involve some discomfort. Again she discusses what assent looks like and what it means when an animal says no. What conditions must be present for a conjugate schedule to begin and what conditions mean that the training should stop?

We're talking with Dr. Susan Friedman about schedules Susan is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: “How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals”. She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org. It's a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior. Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty. Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement. In Part 1 Susan reviewed with us the basics of fixed and variable schedules. In Part 2 we take a deeper dive into continuous reinforcement schedules. We consider how you get behavior to vary without using a variable reinforcement schedule. Susan talks about a move away from transactional training to training with assent. She explains what that means and what it might look like for the learner. We ended Part 1 with a question about how you get behavior to vary when you are using a continuous reinforcement schedule. That's where we pick up as we continue the conversation.

This week we're starting a new series with Dr Susan Friedman. Susan is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals). She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org It's a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior. Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty. Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement. In this first part Susan gets us all grounded in the subject with a review of the basics. As always, Susan makes clear what can often be confusing definitions and distinctions.

Last week Dominique and I were talking about the Clicker Expo. We shared our impressions of the Expo and then I talked about my presentation on the participating horse. This week we are continuing to explore what changes in the relationship that established when active participation is encouraged. Active participation very much means that it is safe for our animals to say “no”. We begin with a discussion of what a “no” really represents. We consider what it means for our animals to have a lifestyle of choice - an expression that comes from Dr. Susan Friedman. We discuss the use of multiple marker signals, treaties clicks, keep going signals, and treating without clicking. And we celebrate the wonderful clicker expo training community that is part of Karen Pryor's legacy.

We recorded this podcast on March 20, 2025. Dominique and I were just back from the Clicker Expo so of course that's what we wanted to talk about. We begin with highlights from the Expo including the Saturday evening keynote presentation given by Jade Fountain. Jade has been involved with Apopo the organization that trains the giant poached rats that are used for land mine detection in Africa and Southeast Asia. Both Dominique and I were enchanted, impressed, fascinated by the rats, their training, and the work they are doing. In addition to the many other Expo highlights, I talk about my presentation on the Participating Horse. I describe the difference between passive and active participation, both in terms of the procedures used and the outcomes that emerge.

This is a continuation of a conversation that Dominique and I had together at the beginning of February. Last week we were talking about the new on-line mini courses I am creating out of the original DVD Lesson series. I have recognized for a long time that people no longer have DVD players, so I am transferring the DVDs to the same platform that hosts my on-line clinics. But I'm not just transferring the original lessons, I am providing updates and additional material. This work is very simple and very complex both at the same time. Most people, even if they are very experienced horse people, can't jump in at the deep end. To get to the complexity that is really simple and the simplicity that is very complex, you have to start in the kiddie pool. And that's where the DVDs begin. But it's the nature of this work that at the same time we're in kindergarten we're also in a graduate level seminar. Now I know there will be people listening to this who are thinking: “I just want to ride my horse. I'm not interested in all this mind-bendy stuff. Just tell me how to teach my horse to stand still so I can get on.” The problem is you may just want to ride, but if you don't have a simple, straightforward horse, you may need do dig deeper into this work. It's all there in the books, the DVD lessons, the on-line courses, the blog, this podcast. I share both basic how-to lessons plus the details that the horses have shown us that make a difference to them. Converting and up-dating the DVDs is a huge project. It's also been a fun project. Revisiting these lessons has been filled with surprises. So, of course, I want to talk about them and that's what Dominique and I did on a very cold February day. Our conversation covers a wide range of topics: including loopy training, the T'ai chi wall - what that means and how to apply it, shaping on a point of contact, head lowering, and strategies for dealing with pushy horses.

Talking of Many Things Part 1: Loopy Training, The T'ai Chi Wall, Head Lowering and Pushy Horses This is a continuation of a conversation that Dominique and I had together at the beginning of February. My original intent when we got together was to talk about the new version of the DVD lessons, but then I got sidetracked because I really wanted to share the videos that Muna Clough sent me as part of the on-line clinics. That was the subject of our previous two episodes. I even included a discussion from our monthly on-line coaching session that included contributions from Muna, Anita Schnee and Lucy Butler. Both Anita and Lucy have been frequent guests on the podcast. So now finally in this week's episode we're going to talk about the DVD lessons. I have recognized for a long time that people no longer have DVD players, so I am transferring the DVDs to the same platform that hosts my on-line clinics. But I'm not just transferring the original lessons, I am providing updates and additional material. For me it's been a fun project. In the first four lessons I get to watch a very young Robin illustrating key elements in the foundation lessons. Twenty-five years later we are still using those elements and enjoying the many benefits they create. In this episode we are going to focus primarily on Lesson 2: Ground Manners. This lesson provides the connections, the bridge between traditional pressure and release of pressure training and what we want clicker training to be. Whether it is a leash attached to a dog collar or a lead attached to a halter, the communication is tactile. It is pressure and release of pressure. For me it has never been a choice between using these tools or never touching them. It has always been about the teaching process and the way we frame our training. One teaching process leads to command-based, do-it-or-else training. The other process leads to cue-based conversations. I want the conversation. So Lesson #2 seeks to understand the difference. The focus is on shaping on a point of contact. We'll be talking about loopy training, head lowering, the t'ai chi wall and what to do when you are working with a horse who falls over his inside shoulder and crowds into you. That's something I know a lot of people struggle with when they try to lead their horses so I'm sure this topic will be of interest.

This is Part 2 of a conversation that Dominique and I had together at the beginning of February. I've been sharing a remarkable series of videos from one of my on-line clients, Muna Clough. In the previous episode I described the videos Muna sent me and the remarkable changes that occurred over a six day period. I shared Muna's videos with my monthly coaching session group. The videos sparked a fascinating discussion about the power of tiny movements. We're joined by Muna Clough, Anita Schnee, and Lucy Butler. Anita is a Feldenkrais Practitioner. Lucy manages the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. Both have been frequent guests on this podcast.

This is an unusual podcast. I'm going to be sharing a video with you. Now I know it's odd to share a video on an audio format but this is no ordinary video. We're going to be looking at a remarkable change in a horse. The horse is owned by one of the participants in my on-line clinics, Muna Clough. I won't spoil the ending of the story by telling you much more about her horse. What I will say is this episode includes a detailed description of the runway lesson. I use the runway lesson to teach horses to step onto mats so it is part of the core foundation lessons. The runway lesson is a fascinating lesson. A beginner can succeed with it. And later when that same handler has become more finessed in her handling skills, she can use the runway lesson to transform a horse's balance. It is one of my favorite patterned exercises, so I'm delighted we're turning the spotlight on it in this episode.

This is part three of a conversation Dominique and I had at the end of January 2025. Part 1 was a tribute to Karen Pryor. Part 2 was a celebration of Robin's 30th birthday. I don't know his exact birthday so I am celebrating all year long. For me, 30 seems like such an important milestone for a horse to reach. It's like a person reaching their 90th birthday - it's quite an accomplishment, especially if they are still in good health. Robin has played an important role in the development of equine clicker training. In the previous episode I shared some of the many ways in which he showed us what is possible. Thirty years is a long time. When your horses reach their senior years that raises the question of what comes next. That's what we're going to talk about in this episode. Even if you are the one in your twenties and you've just gotten a young horse to start out with, this is something to think about. Horses live a long time. The full arc of their years not only takes us through many changes in our own lives, they help to shape those changes.

Last week we celebrated the life of Karen Pryor. My horses have lived a much better life because of Karen's work. That includes my young horse, Robin. I suppose I should stop referring to him as my young horse because this year he has reached an important milestone. Robin is thirty years old. That's like a person reaching their 90th birthday. It's an achievement that needs to be celebrated which is what I am doing in this episode. I don't know Robin's actual birthday so I will be celebrating his 30th Birthday all year long. Robin has had an enormous impact on equine clicker training. He showed us what is possible. So in this episode I am going to share Robin stories. We'll be talking about trick training, the “pose”, default behaviors and of course, balance, balance and more balance.

Episode 312 Remembering Karen Pryor At the end of January 2025 Dominique and I got together for an afternoon's conversation. This is part 1 of that conversation. I primarily wanted to talk about Karen Pryor. Karen died on January 5 2025. This episode celebrates her life.

This is Part 3 of our conversation with Lucy Butler. With her fiancee Lucy founded the River Haven Sanctuary in Rhode Island. The sanctuary is home to about fifty animals - pigs, geese, ducks, chickens, goats, donkeys, and three horses. The Sanctuary gives forever homes to animals that were in crisis. Lucy and her fiancee Jeff have plans for developing the sanctuary into an educational center,. In Part 1 Lucy introduced us to the sanctuaries three horses, Pearl, River, and Nieve. Initially, clicker training was used to help the horses settle and to fill in the huge gaps in their basic education. It's been a healing process for them physically as well as emotionally. In Part 2 we talked about the effect that lateral work is having on the horses. We began with Nieve and the remarkable changes lateral work is making in her emotional stability. Nieve is confirming that in horses physical balance is very much related to emotional well-being. In Part 3 we continue on with the changes that Lucy is seeing in River, a standardbred who was raced for five years and was then a harness horse for the Amish, and in Pearl, a mini who came to River Haven Sanctuary via another horse rescue. These “throw-away” horses show us how important training is to their overall well-being. Lucy is learning how to weave strong safety nets under her three very different horses.

This is Part 2 of our conversation with Lucy Butler. With her fiancé Lucy founded the River Haven Sanctuary in Rhode Island. The sanctuary is home to about fifty animals, pigs, geese, ducks, chickens, goats, donkeys, and three horses. The Sanctuary gives forever homes to animals that were in crisis. Lucy and her fiancé Jeff have plans for developing the sanctuary into an educational center,. In Part 1 Lucy introduced us to the sanctuaries three horses, Pearl, River, and Nieve. Initially, clicker training was used to help the horses settle and to fill in the huge gaps in their basic education. It's been a healing process for them physically as well as emotionally. In Part 2 we talk about the effect that lateral work is having on the horses. We begin with Nieve and the remarkable effect that teaching her lateral work is having for her emotionally. Nieve is confirming that in horses physical balance is very much related to emotional well-being. We talk about constructional design and what shaping on a point of contact means for the horses.

This is Part 1 of our conversation with Lucy Butler. With her fiancé Lucy founded the River Haven Sanctuary in Rhode Island. The sanctuary is home to about fifty animals, pigs, geese, ducks, chickens, goats, donkeys, and three horses. The Sanctuary gives forever homes to animals that were in crisis. Lucy and her fiancé Jeff have plans for developing the sanctuary into an educational center. In Part 1 Lucy introduces us to the Sanctuary's three horses, Pearl, River, and Nieve. Initially, clicker training was used to help the horses settle and to fill in the huge gaps in their basic education. It's been a healing process for them physically as well as emotionally. This sets the stage for the main purpose of our conversation - which is to talk about lateral work. Lucy is in the early stages of introducing her horses to lateral work. The discoveries she's making and the changes she's seeing in her horses are well worth sharing. For me central to all performance work is the horse's balance. The training helps the horse find his optimal balance and use of his body. Whatever your performance goals are for your horse, a central, fundamental focus on balance will help you get there. And it will get you there without compromising your horse. Balance matters for the lifetime of your horse. Lucy has been an active participant in my on-line clinics so I've been watching her horses' training develop over time. All three have reached the point where lateral work is beginning to pop out. In the last coaching session Lucy talked about the exciting changes she's seeing in her horses. The changes in all three horses have been so remarkable, we had to share. Normally when someone is invited to talk about lateral work, it is because they are an expert in this type of training. In Lucy's case it is because this work is so new to her that I wanted her to join us. The changes she's seeing in her horses are very much worth sharing. I always add something at the end of each episode. This week I have included a tribute to Karen Pryor who died on January 4, 2025 at the age of 92. Do please join me in honoring her work.

This is Part 4 of a 4 part conversation. In November Dominique and I spent a delightful afternoon going through a list of topics Dominique has been accumulating. We talked the afternoon away, so I've split our conversation into four episodes. In Part 1 we talked about trailer loading, the microshaping strategy and what criteria we use to decide when to end a training session. In part 2 I described a procedure for teaching a horse to lift his feet that uses body part targeting. This lesson helps develop skills in the handler that are needed for teaching lateral work. I also described a fun lesson where instead of round penning horses, we round pen people. The lesson teaches handlers the choreography of ground work. In part 3 we consider another critical handler skill and that's fast decision making. Often we look at training progressions with the focus on what the horse is learning. Of course the question that interests people is: What am I going to be teaching my horse? In order to teach well, there are skills the handler needs to learn. Many of these are obvious physical skills such as learning good rope handling techniques. What is less obvious are some of the “invisible” skills such as fast decision making. These invisible skills are the “grease” that makes all the physical skills work smoothly. So in this episode we focused on flexible thinking and fast decision making. We review the progression of lessons that develops this skill for the handler and we consider why this is such an important skill. We also look at shaping on either side of the click and more details about teaching foot care, especially related to handling the hind feet of potential kickers. In Part 4 we continue this discussion of teaching horses good foot care manners. We share some farrier stories and then consider if, when, and how to fade the click and treat out of the foot care process. Our discussion takes us to listening to horses and how that phrase is interpreted by different trainers. What gets normalized in our training expectations? When trainers talk about relaxed horses, what does that mean? We make a distinction between relaxation and learned helplessness. Do we recognize the difference? This brings us back to the earlier conversation about round pens where the end result in many styles of round pen training is learned helplessness. We want to keep the sparkle in the eye and that's what we see with clicker training.

This is Part 3 of a 4 part conversation. In November Dominique and I spent a delightful afternoon going through a list of topics Dominique had been accumulating. We talked the afternoon away, so I've split our conversation into four episodes. In Part 1 we talked about trailer loading, the Microshaping Strategy, and what criteria we use to decide when to end a training session. In part 2 I described a procedure for teaching a horse to lift his feet that uses body part targeting. This lesson helps develop skills in the handler that are needed for teaching lateral work. I also described a fun lesson where instead of round penning horses, we round pen people. The lesson teaches handlers the choreography of ground work. Now in part 3 we consider another critical handler skill and that's fast decision making. Often we look at training progressions with the focus on what the horse is learning. Of course, the question that interests people is: What am I going to be teaching my horse? In order to teach well, there are skills the handler needs to learn. Many of these are obvious physical skills such as learning good rope handling techniques. What is less obvious are some of the “invisible” skills such as fast decision making. These invisible skills are the “grease” that makes all the physical skills work smoothly. So in this episode we focus on flexible thinking and fast decision making. We review the progression of lessons that develops this skill for the handler and we consider why this is such an important skill. We also look at shaping on either side of the click and more details about teaching foot care, especially related to handling the hind feet of potential kickers.

This is a fun episode. We begin with foot care and the connection to lateral work. The lesson I describe is especially useful if you have a horse who struggles to pick up his feet for you. Instead of trying to fix a broken behavior, I share with you a different way of teaching your horse to pick up his feet, one that uses body part targeting. I'll let you listen to the episode to find out what the connection to teaching lateral work is. The discussion of lateral work connects us to something I don't think we've talked about before in this podcast and that's round penning people. Again, I'll send you to this week's episode to find out what that's about.

In November Dominique and I spent an afternoon catching up and talking about a wide range of topics. We talked together for over four hours so obviously that conversation is going to be divided up over several episodes. In Part 1 Dominique gets us started with a question about breaks. We talk about trailer loading, familiarizing horses to new environments, the Microshaping strategy and the criteria we us for knowing when to end a training session.

This is Part 3 of a three part conversation with Michaela Hempen and Carmen Heritier. In the spring of 2024 Carmen sent her three year old quarter horse mare, Malu, to Michaela for three months of training. Malu was like a sponge. She soaked up all the lessons. In this episode we contrast what it was like to work with a well prepared young horse who likes people with that of restarting Michaela's mare Blondie. In Parts 1 and 2 we reviewed Blondie's training background. In this episode Michaela shares more of the details of her training. She describes the long-term impact of the physical and emotional compression that Blondie endured in her early training before coming to Michaela. Blondie's training background is a common one. The contrast between the two horses highlights what a gift it is to give a horse a good start to their training.

This is part 2 of a three part conversation with Michaela Hempen and Carmen Heritier. In the spring of 2024 Carmen sent her three year old quarter horse mare, Malu, to Michaela for three months of training. In Part 1 we introduced Carmen and Malu, and then Michaela talked about the early steps in her training. Malu was a well-prepared horse, so the training flowed along. Part 1 ended with a question about adding leg speed and that's where we begin in this episode. How do you get transitions into trot and canter? We also talk about the squashed road kill lesson, but you will have to listen to the episode top find out what that is.

Michaela Hempen has been a guest many times on this podcast. We began in Episode 27 with single-subject design and then Michaela introduced us to Blondie, the mare who was the subject of the research project she did on cribbing. We're returning to Blondie again in this conversation. Michaela will be contrasting her experience restarting Blondie under saddle with that of Malu, a three year old quarter horse mare. Malu belongs to Carmen, a dog trainer and now horse owner. She sent Malu to Michaela to get her started under saddle. In this episode Carmen describes her own training background which includes an interest in canine fitness and balance. She introduces us to Malu and shares her reasons for choosing Michaela to help her get Malu started under saddle. We talk about shaping with both positive and negative reinforcement, and the beginning lessons Michaela covered with Malu.

In this episode Christa shares effective strategies for bringing horses and children together. She reminds us, among other things, to play. So many riding programs normalize brutality by teaching children you have to “make your pony mind”. They are told to hit their pony to make him go. In this episode we describe alternatives. We imagine what children growing up with clicker training represents will do as adults. They can be world changers because they will see the world in a new way. They will have the skills to show that there are alternatives. Everything is connected - children's books, clicker training, teaching children and horses, training well, wanting the best for our horses. It's part of every one of our 301 episodes. Train well and join us in celebrating Modern Horse Training and all that that means.

This episode is filled with Celebrations. We're celebrating our 300th Episode. That's quite a milestone. And we're celebrating the publication of “Kenyon Bear's Christmas”, Book 4 of the Kenyon Bear children's books. What better way to celebrate than to talk with Christa Culbert. Christa created the illustrations for Kenyon Bear's Christmas. She is also a horse person and a creative teacher. So many riding programs are centered around riding. On the surface that makes sense. Christa has developed a very different kind of program that is centered around the horse. Five and six year old children set up preference tests to discover what kinds of treats their horses really like. They learn about so much more than how to make their pony go. They are learning how to help their pony WANT to go WITH them. Everything is connected - children's books, clicker training, teaching children and horses, training well, wanting the best for our horses. It's part of every one of our 300 episodes.

I've just published the newest book in the Kenyon Bear series of children's book, Kenyon Bear's Christmas. This week we're talking with the illustrator, Christa Culbert. In case you're wondering what this has to do with horses, the answer is everything! In this week's podcast we talk with Christa about art, animals, imagination, clicker training, and teaching children about horses. Christa starts us off by saying art is about perceiving the world in a new way. Isn't that what we are doing with clicker training? We are perceiving training and our relationships with horses in new ways. Christa talks about the programs she has developed to bring horses and children together. It is about so much more than simply teaching them to ride. So join us in the celebration of the new book, Kenyon Bear's Christmas, and enjoy a wide ranging conversation about horses, imagination, working with children, entitlement, boundaries, and the convergence between what we're discovering through science and what we knew as children about our animal friends.

We're talking about advanced training. What makes something an advanced behavior, or an advanced topic or concept? When people say they want to attend an advanced seminar, what do they mean? What are they looking for? In part 1 we looked at this question from the perspective of the lessons we are teaching our horses. I made a case for advanced training is just the basics done very, very well. We agreed that identifying advanced skills is very much in the eye of the beholder. If you don't have the needed underlying components, the task you're trying to take on will seem like a very advanced skill. So what is an advanced skill for one individual will be just the next doable step for another. In part 2 we then considered if there is a difference in how we view advanced skills when we're thinking about teaching our horses versus what we ourselves need to master in order to be effective teachers. Teaching well requires many skills. In Part 2 we began our list of what we would consider to be advanced skills. In Part three we added to this list beginning with a discussion of agency. One of the reasons I wanted to talk about what advanced means is I hope this helps all of us to be clearer about what we are looking for when we ask for advanced topics. If I want to advance my horse's training, I need to be patient and recognize that moving on may mean reviewing previous steps in the training first. You'll begin by polishing and refining the underlying components. That's what produces the readiness for the next steps in the training. If my focus is on advancing my training skills, I'll be looking over a wider range of topics. What do I need to develop? Is it my handling skills? Is it my own body awareness? Is it my understanding of biomechanics, or behavior analysis? What is keeping me from progressing? Our growing list of skills that we would look for in a skilled trainer may help you to identify some areas that are worth exploring.

We're talking about advanced training. What makes something an advanced behavior, or an advanced topic or concept? When people say they want to attend an advanced seminar, what do they mean? What are they looking for? In part 1 we looked at this question from the perspective of the lessons we are teaching our horses. I made a case for advanced training is just the basics done very, very well. We agreed that identifying advanced skills is very much in the eye of the beholder. If you don't have the needed underlying components, the task you're trying to take on will seem like a very advanced skill. So what is an advanced skill for one individual will be just the next doable step for another. In part 2 we then considered if there is a difference in how we view advanced skills when we're thinking about teaching our horses versus what we ourselves need to master in order to be effective teachers. Teaching well requires many skills. In Part 2 we began our list of what we would consider to be advanced skills. In Part three we added to this list beginning with a discussion of agency. One of the reasons I wanted to talk about what advanced means is I hope this helps all of us to be clearer about what we are looking for when we ask for advanced topics. If I want to advance my horse's training, I need to be patient and recognize that moving on may mean reviewing previous steps in the training first. You'll begin by polishing and refining the underlying components. That's what produces the readiness for the next steps in the training. If my focus is on advancing my training skills, I'll be looking over a wider range of topics. What do I need to develop? Is it my handling skills? Is it my own body awareness? Is it my understanding of biomechanics, or behavior analysis? What is keeping me from progressing? Our growing list of skills that we would look for in a skilled trainer may help you to identify some areas that are worth exploring.

We're talking about what how we would define an advanced skill or topic. What makes something advanced? In Part 1 the focus was on our horses and the lessons we teach them. We explored what it means when we say advanced training is just the basics done really well. Is that indeed the case, or is there something more to advanced training? In this week's episode we turn the spotlight onto the handler. Is there a difference in how we view advanced skills when we're thinking about the skills our horses are learning versus what is involved in teaching those skills? As the teachers of these behaviors it seems to me that we have the more complex task. Teaching well requires many skills. Would we consider these to be advanced skills? That's the question we'll be exploring in this episode. We'll consider some of the skills that we think are needed to be an effective teacher. We have our list. I'm sure you have your own. Listen to the podcast to see how well they match up.

In this three part series we're considering what makes something an advanced behavior, or an advanced topic or concept. When people say they want to attend an advanced seminar, what do they mean? What are they looking for? In Part 1 we explore this question from the perspective of what are we teaching our horses. I make the case that advanced training is just the basics done very, very well. Added to that is anything is an advanced skill or topic at the point where you don't have the underlying components. So what is an advanced skill for one individual will be just the next doable step for another. We consider if there is a difference in how we view advanced skills when we're thinking about teaching our horses versus what we ourselves need to learn. As the teachers of these behaviors it seems to me that we have the more complex task. Teaching well requires many skills. Would we consider these to be advanced skills?

Breaks are good for learning is something we hear a lot. Certainly we all know that no matter how much you are enjoying an activity there comes a point where you need to stop. You need to refresh mentally and physically. But what constitutes a break? Think about for yourself. When you need a break from work, what does that look like? Sometimes we might see you collapsed in a heap on your couch watching mindless television. Other times we might see you going out for a jog, or pulling out a challenging crossword puzzle. These can all be breaks. What constitutes a break for our horses? In Part 1 we began with the early steps of introducing a horse to clicker training. The handler is working in protective contact so it's easy for the handler to give the type of break where the session comes to a full stop and the handler steps away. We talked about using the twenty treat strategy as a way to ensure that these breaks actually occur. As training progresses, the behaviors you teach become opportunities to give your horse a break. A break is no longer a full stop to the training, but a change to a different activity. The loopy training teaching strategy helps to structure breaks into your training. That's what we talked about in Part 1. In part 2 we talk about different strategies for working with multiple horses; the importance of giving complete information and how that plays out in training; and what playing the card game twenty-one has to do with training.

This week we're talking about breaks. We'll be talking about what breaks are and how you teach them. We're also talking about the many uses breaks serve - including some very important ones for the handler. Breaks aren't just for our horse's benefit. We'll go back to the very first steps in the training where the handler is using protective contact. The barrier makes it easy to give breaks. So horses are learning that the training stops and then starts up again. Frequent breaks can help a new learner settle. They aren't frustrated when the handler stops the training, and they aren't anxiously waiting for it to start up again. That same environmental set up helps handlers develop the skill of assessing and adjusting their training. So breaks not only serve many functions, they are important for both horse and handler. Before we begin our discussion of breaks we take a detour into equine dentistry.

This is Part 2 of a Two Part Conversation. Last week we followed up on our previous conversation with Michaela Hempen on horse welfare. Dominique shared some useful resources and I shared a goat story. The goat story leads to a discussion of when and how to step in should you encounter rough handling. It's never a comfortable situation, or an easy decision. To provide a counterbalance to what can be a difficult subject, we switched gears to talk about training principles, rope handling and the t'ai chi wall.

For this conversation Dominique and I both wanted to follow up on our previous conversation with Michaela Hempen. We were talking about horse welfare. Dominique shared some useful resources that you can use to assess your horse's physical welfare. These included Anja Beran's Train Your Eye DVD, the horse grimace scale, and the equine discomfort ethogram. It can be uncomfortable to stand up for our animals. In the second half of the episode I share a goat story in which I had to do exactly that. In the podcast with Michaela, we talked about being good guardians for animals. Days after we recorded the podcast, I got to practice putting those words into action.

This conversation was prompted by an event that occurred just before the opening of the 2024 Paris Olympics. One of the top dressage riders had to withdraw because of a video that showed her whipping a horse during a training session. The video came out just as Dominique and I were planning our next podcast recording. Dominique said her social media feed was filled with posts discussing the video. Should we talk about it. Generally we shy away from talking directly about training that disturbs us. But horse welfare is an important topic and one we need to be talking about. So I invited Michaela Hempen to join us. We've just finished the conversation with Michaela on the connection between riding and the Feldenkrais work. Normally we wouldn't have a guest do back to back conversations, but Michaela was the perfect person to ask to join us. In her day job with the European Food Safety Authority she is currently involved in providing scientific assessments that inform the European Commission and other EU member states to formulate legislation to protect animals. This has primarily meant animals produced for food, but the mandate has broadened out to include equine welfare in general. In Part 1 Michaela described what they will be considering under these new mandates. In Part 2 we consider the role each of us can play in moving the horse community as a whole forward towards more horse-friendly training.

This conversation was prompted by an event that occurred just before the opening of the 2024 Paris Olympics. One of the top dressage riders had to withdraw because of a video that showed her whipping a horse during a training session. The video came out just as Dominique and I were planning our next podcast recording. Dominique said her social media feed was filled with posts discussing the video. Should we talk about it. Generally we shy away from talking directly about training that disturbs us. But horse welfare is an important topic and one we need to be talking about. So I invited Michaela Hempen to join us. We've just finished the conversation with Michaela on the connection between riding and the Feldenkrais work. Normally we wouldn't have a guest do back to back conversations, but Michaela was the perfect person to ask to join us. In her day job with the European Food Safety Authority she is currently involved in providing scientific assessments that inform the European Commission and other EU member states to formulate legislation to protect animals. This has primarily meant animals produced for food, but the mandate has broadened out to include equine welfare in general. We begin with Michaela describing what they will be considering under these new mandates. Some of the practices that are currently done to horses are horrific. I was not aware, for example, of the blood farms. But this conversation is not intended to shock or depress you. Even when we move on to consider the video that sparked this conversation we are focusing on solutions and the role each of us can play in moving the horse community as a whole forward towards more horse-friendly training.

Episode 289 Michaela Hempen and Anita Schnee Feldenkrais Work Pt 3: The Role of Visualization in Riding Instruction For the past ten years Michaela has been studying with a Feldenkrais Practitioner, Nathalie Van Cauwenberghe. In the previous episodes Michaela described some of the riding challenges which the Feldenkrais work has helped her to solve. Nathalie does not speak English well enough to participate in the podcast, so I invited Anita Schnee to join us. Anita is also a Feldenkrais Practitioner so we will be drawing on her expertise as we continue with this conversation. In this episode we begin with a discussion of visualizations and the use of metaphors. Riding and the Feldenkrais™ work are both kinesthetic experiences. Translating what you feel into words can be a struggle, especially when you want those words to function as instructions. The use of visualizations helps to create translations.

This week we're continuing our conversation with Anita Schnee and Michaela Hempen. Michaela has been our guest on this podcast many times. She's talked to us about the research project she did on cribbing, about single subject design, and more recently about how animal welfare is assessed. When it comes to horses Michaela and I share a love of beautiful movement, so she also joined us when we talked with Anja Beran, the classical rider whose work inspires both of us. For the past ten years Michaela has been studying with a Feldenkrais™ Practitioner, Nathalie Van Cauwenberghe. In last week's episode Michaela described the riding challenge Anja's work poses. Anja has told her that in order to ride well you need to stabilize your torso while remaining loose in the rest of your body. With Nathalie's help, Michaela has been figuring out how to turn these words into a meaningful reality. Nathalie does not speak English well enough to participate in the podcast, so I invited Anita Schnee to join us. Anita is also a Feldenkrais™ Practitioner so we will be drawing on her expertise as we continue with this conversation. The goal is to ride well. Last week I ended with a description of the changes I see in horse handler teams when the handler learns to lift through their sternum. I left you with that image to enjoy. We'll pick up again at that point in the conversation.

Michaela Hempen has been a frequent guest on this podcast. She has talked about her cribbing research, single subject design, and more recently about how animal welfare is assessed. When it comes to horses Michaela and I share a love of beautiful movement, so she has also joined us when we talked with Anja Beran, the classical rider whose work inspires both of us. For the past ten years Michaela has been studying with a Feldenkrais™ practitioner, Nathalie Van Cauwenbergghe. In this episode Michaela is talks about the challenges riding presents and recent breakthroughs she has made. We are also joined by Anita Schnee, a Feldenkrais™ practitioner. Anita helps us to understand the patterns Michaela has been exploring.

This week we're continuing our conversation with Dr Susan Friedman and Rick Hester. In this episode we begin with a question to Susan: Is the teaching standard known as Lima the same as the hierarchy of behavior change procedures that Susan has written about? Susan provides an historical perspective for the LIMA acronym, and for many of the other labels people have attached to training.

This week we're continuing our conversation with Dr Susan Friedman and Rick Hester. Dr Friedman has been a frequent guest on this podcast. She is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is pioneer in the use of Applied Behavior Analysis in the handling of captive and companion animals. Her interest in developing scientifically sound, ethical standards for animal care and training prompted our this current conversation. We are also joined by Rick Hester. Rick is the curator of behavioral Husbandry for the Cheyenne Mountain zoo. Rick overseas the zoo's training program for husbandry, medical and public show behaviors. In this episode we consider many important questions, including what does it mean to be a positive reinforcement trainer? How do we operationalize that? How do we evaluate new ideas? We don't want to move too quickly but nor do we want to get stuck in old ideas. Why does novelty have such a draw for us? We also consider why Susan has chosen to keep punishment in the hierarchy of behavior change strategies. This opens the door to a discussion of negative reinforcement as well as punishment. Do we need new words to describe the procedures we use?

This is Part 1 of a three part conversation with Dr. Susan Friedman and Rick Hester. Dr. Friedman has been a frequent guest on this podcast. Most of you I'm sure already know Susan. But just as a reminder, Susan is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is a pioneer in the use of Applied Behavior Analysis in the handling of captive and companion animals. Her interest in developing scientifically sound, ethical standards for animal care and training prompted our this current conversation. We are also joined by Rick Hester. Rick is the curator of behavioral Husbandry for the Cheyenne Mountain zoo. Rick overseas the zoo's training program for husbandry, medical and public show behaviors. I value the perspective he brings to training. When you work with horses it all too easy to think you have to rely on force-based methods for some medical and husbandry behaviors - and then you see what's being done in zoos. We begin by talking about why it matters to have ethical standards guiding the training choices we make. We are talking about training goals and strategies that provide our learners with choice and a lifestyle of control.

This is part 3 of our conversation with Dr. Claire St Peter from the University of West Virginia and one of her graduate students, Abbie Cooper. Abbie has been comparing behaviors that were trained with either positive or negative reinforcement when they are placed under conditions of extinction. What happens to behavior when training goes sideways and the individual is no longer getting reinforced for actions that had been producing consistent, desired results? In Part 1 she described her study and the results she has been getting, In Part 2 we considered the emotional fallout that was observed and we connected it to real world experiences both in animal training and the classroom. In Part 3 Claire raises the question why do people adopt the teaching procedures that use negative reinforcement and punishment based approaches. Why are these approaches so prevalent, not just in animal training, but in the classroom as well? Why don't people gravitate towards using alternative reinforcement strategies that are based more in a positive reinforcement framing? This is the launching point for this week's conversation in which we explore connections. We consider how the results of Abbie's study relate to what people experience both with horses and in the classroom. What can be learned? What role does microshaping play in creating teaching strategies that do not rely on aversive control to get results?

This week we're continuing our conversation with Dr. Claire St Peter and one of her phd candidate students Abbie Cooper. Last week Abbie looked at a study in which she compared positive and negative reinforcement - what happens to behavior when training goes sideways and the individual is no longer getting reinforced for actions that had been producing consistent, desired results. This week we're going to consider the emotional fallout that was observed and we'll connect it to training experiences and to other studies.

This is part one of a three part conversation with Dr. Claire St Peter, the chair of the Department of Behavior Analysis at West Virginia University, and one of her graduate students, Abbie Cooper. Abbey is reporting on a study she has just completed for her Masters Thesis. In part 1 she is describing the study. Undergrads were presented with a computer screen that had six similar circles on it. In the initial set up, under one set of conditions if the students clicked on the correct circle, they gained points. These points could be exchanged for money at the end of the experiment. In a different context, if they failed to click on the circle, they lost points. Abbey then observed their behavior during an extinction process. The study produced some interesting results that seem very relevant to horse training.

I'm always delighted when I get to talk about balance and why it matters. At this year's Expo I had both a presentation and a Balance matters lab. We talk about both of these in this week's episode. We end with a discussion of equipment - what halters and leads do I favor and why.

This week we're talking about the April Clicker Expo which was held in Portland Oregon. We start by talking about a panel discussion on working with aggressive animals. Then we move on to a presentation given by Ken Ramirez on the training terms which have emerged over time. Which of these terms have staying power and why. This was the perfect lead in to my own presentation on constructional training which I talk about in detail in this episode. At the very end, just for fun Dominique shares her experience of the solar eclipse on April 8.

This is Part 3 of a three part conversation Dominique and I had in March, 2024. In part 1 we talked about puzzle solving and this led to a great real life experience using back chaining that Dominique shared with us. e between forward chaining and back chaining. In Part 2 the spotlight was on rope handling. This week we are changing topics yet again. Dominique wanted to talk about agility. I begin this episode with an overview of clicker training. Clicker training has three phases. These phases don't have clear distinct lines separating one from the other. You aren't in phase one, and then you come to a demarcation line and you're in phase 2. Instead they merge one into the other. The first phase introduces the horse and the handler to clicker training. I use the six foundation lessons for this. Horse and handler learn are introduced to the use of marker signals; food as a reinforcer; loopy training; cues; chaining, and many other important concepts, principles, and teaching strategies. In phase 2 you use the foundation lessons to help teach the universals. We've talked about this in many of the podcasts. The universals are those activities which horses need to understand and be comfortable with regardless of the performance goals a handler may have. It doesn't matter if you ride English or western, or you don't ride at all, we all need to take care of our horse's feet. So foot care is an obvious universal. It's easy to think of other universals, activities we want our horses to be comfortable with - such as grooming haltering, and other husbandry activities. The foundation lessons make it much easier to teach these skills. Phase Two merges seamlessly into Phase Three. Phase Three begins to look at performance goals. What do you want to do with your horse? For some people what they want is a great relationship. Just being around their horse and taking care of him, is what they want. Using clicker training to create cooperative care is the main goal of training. Basic ordinary grooming becomes elevated to the level of performance. Medical care isn't something the horse tolerates. He becomes a consenting partner in whatever needs to be done. The goal is deep friendship. The training transform everyday tasks into Grand Prix level performance. In Phase Three we're also looking at skills needed for specific performance-related goals. One person may be interested in jumping, another dressage, a third person may like reining. All three riders need to know the basics of riding walk trot canter. And there may be many overlapping skills as you begin to explore your chosen sport, but if you are interested in jumping you may want to go to someone who specializes in this sport to help you set up gymnastic grid patterns that can teach a horse how to jump well. That's true for all the different sports. My area of interest is balance. If someone is starting into my work with an interest in classical dressage, they will find that our interests and goals are very much aligned. But that doesn't mean that you have to be interested in dressage to work with me. Those first two phases are designed to prepare you for your long term training goals. By the time you have taught your horse the universals that are important to you, you will know how to teach your horse new skills. You will know how to approach your performance goals constructionally. My role is not to direct you to a specific performance goal, but to support you as you explore a wide range of activities. Some of these may require specialized knowledge so you will need to seek out trainers who can help you with these goals. You may also discover that clicker training has already given you the teaching skills you need to succeed. That's what this week's conversation is about. Dominique wants to talk about agility. Let's see how that fits into this overall view of the three phases of clicker training.