Podcasts about any mess

Today, our special guest is Abby Covert, Chief Sensemaker at the Sensemaker Club. Join Brendan as he interviews Abby, an information architect, author, and community leader in UX design. Abby shares insights into her work in UX design, the importance of customer feedback, and her journey as an author. They discuss topics such as misdiagnosis, neurodivergent experiences, the evolution of information architecture, ethical responsibility in tech, and effective communication through diagrams. Take advantage of this insightful and thought-provoking conversation. Highlights include: 0:00 - Introduction and Abby's Accomplishments 3:17 - Abby's Experience of Buying a House 6:45 - Abby's Book "How to Make Sense of Any Mess" 13:01 - Friendship with Christina Wodtke 16:56 - Abby's Work and Life OKRs 20:45 - Decision to Become a "Digital Recluse" 26:10 - Experience of Being Diagnosed with ADHD 37:56 - Abby's Journey in Information Architecture (IA) 44:28 - Challenges in Promoting Ethical Responsibility in UX Design   Who is Abby Covert Abby Covert is an information architect, writer, and community organizer with two decades of experience helping people make sense of messes. In addition to being an active mentor to those new to sensemaking, she has also served the design community as President of the Information Architecture Institute, co-chair of the Information Architecture Summit, and Executive Producer of the I.D.E.A Conference.   Abby is a founding faculty member of the School of Visual Arts' Products of Design graduate program. She also managed the team that helped Rosenfeld Media start the Design Operations Summit and Advancing Research Conference. Her most proud achievement is coming up with the idea for World Information Architecture Day, which brings accessibly priced education to thousands in their local communities annually.   Abby has written two books for her students. In 2014, she published How to Make Sense of Any Mess, a book to teach IA to everybody. In 2022, she released her much-anticipated follow-up, Stuck? Diagrams Help. She currently spends her time making things that help you make the unclear clear, many of which she makes available for free on her website, abbycovert.com or at accessible price points in her popular Etsy shop, AbbytheIA.   Find Abby Here Abby Covert on LinkedIn Sensemaker Club on LinkedIn Sensemaker Club Website Abby Covert's Book How to Make Sense of Any Mess Subscribe to Brave UX Like what you heard and want to hear more? Subscribe and support the show by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts (or wherever you listen). Apple Podcast Spotify YouTube Podbean Follow us on our other social channels for more great Brave UX content! LinkedIn Instagram Brendan Jarvis hosts the Show, and you can find him here: Brendan Jarvis on LinkedIn The Space InBetween Website

Summer is a great time to potty train your child! The weather is nice so their clothes won't be cumbersome and your schedule is a little more flexible. For anyone who needs a little help with potty training, this is your podcast! Michelle discusses Elimination Communication, classic potty training, and potty training tips for the special-needs child. This podcast is the second of 2 podcasts. Be sure to go back and listen to the first podcast. Introduction What about other caregivers? What about travel and potty training? Sticking with potty training and backsliding The frustrated mom Potty training special needs kids Resources ClosingMichelle is CEO of The Potty School, consultant, speaker, and teacher. She has written The Complete Guide to Potty Training Your Child- Expert Solutions for Any Mess. You can get her book here. She has also appeared on KTLA, Channel 5 out of Los Angeles, OC Parenting, and MSN. The Website for The Potty School is Thepottyschool.com. If you have any response to this or other podcasts, please reach out to me. Also, if you have a topic you would love to hear about on Adventure Parenting with Grace, please let me know! My email address is Laurie@kidstrength4life.com Thanks for listening and remember to rest in the Lord this week!

Summer is a great time to potty train your child! The weather is nice so their clothes won't be cumbersome and your schedule is a little more flexible. For anyone who needs a little help with potty training, this is your podcast! Michelle discusses Elimination Communication, classic potty training, and potty training tips for the special-needs child. This podcast is the first of 2 podcasts. Introduction When should I start potty training my child? Elimination Communication Toilet Independence Potty training process Night-time training Toileting fears Importance of being on the same page Closing Michelle is CEO of The Potty School, consultant, speaker, and teacher. She has written The Complete Guide to Potty Training Your Child- Expert Solutions for Any Mess. You can get her book here. She has also appeared on KTLA, Channel 5 out of Los Angeles, OC Parenting, and MSN. The Website for The Potty School is Thepottyschool.com. If you have any response to this or other podcasts, please reach out to me. Also, if you have a topic you would love to hear about on Adventure Parenting with Grace, please let me know! My email address is Laurie@kidstrength4life.com Thanks for listening and remember to rest in the Lord this week!

> Episode website < Episode Summary: In this enlightening episode of Insights Unlocked, UserTesting's Bailey Copithorne talks with Abby Covert, an esteemed information architect and author, to unravel the intricacies of information architecture (IA). They explore Abby's journey from graphic design to information architecture, the challenges to understanding information architecture, effectively introducing IA to teams where the concept may be new, and how to leverage AI in the field of information architecture. Guest bio: Our guest is Abby Covert. Abby is an information architect who helps people make sense of information. She writes books and teaches courses on information architecture. She is also the founder of The Sensemakers Club, a digital clubhouse where you can meet sensemakers with similar interests and challenges to your own. What You'll Learn: Abby's professional evolution: from aspirations in musical theater to information architecture, Abby shares how her career transitioned through various phases of graphic and digital design. Challenges in Information Architecture: understanding the common misconceptions that beginners have and how Abby's teaching approach addresses these challenges. Practical applications: insight into Abby's tenure at Etsy, including her innovative approach to implementing a voice of the customer program that reshaped how user feedback influenced product development. Future of Information Architecture: discussions on how information architecture is becoming increasingly crucial in the development and humanization of AI and machine learning technologies. The Sensemakers Club: Abby talks about her initiative to create a community for information architecture enthusiasts to connect, learn, and grow through The Sensemakers Club. Key Quotes: "Information architecture is not just about organizing data; it's about organizing it with intention." "Democratizing information architecture means making it a tool everyone can use to make sense of their messes, not just the trained professionals." Resources Mentioned: Abby Covert's Books: How to Make Sense of Any Mess and Stuck? Diagrams Help. The Sensemakers Club: www.thesensemakersclub.com Episode Timestamps: [00:00] Introduction to Abby Covert and the episode theme [05:22] Abby's journey from graphic design to information architecture [15:45] Common misconceptions and educational approaches in information architecture [25:30] Implementing customer voice at Etsy and its impact [35:50] The critical role of information architecture in AI and machine learning [45:10] Discussion on the future and democratization of information architecture [55:00] Conclusion and information about the Sense Makers Club Call to Action: Check out The Sensemakers Club and consider joining to connect with a community of like-minded professionals and enthusiasts. Read Abby's influential books to gain a deeper understanding and practical insights into tackling complex information architecture challenges. Further reading: For more information, read this UserTesting blog post, Information architecture: a comprehensive UX guide for beginners.

Abby Covert is an information architect, writer and community organizer with two decades of experience helping people make sense of messes. She is the author of the 2014 book, How to Make Sense of Any Mess, "a book to teach IA to everybody," and more recently, Stuck, Diagrams Help, a book for teaching the art of diagramming. In this episode of the podcast, Sophia and Abby talk about letting go of perfectionism in dealing with tech debt, the power of language and why words are hard, plus why diagramming is a high order skill. LINKS: Connect with Abby on LinkedIn. Keep up with Abby on her website. Purchase Abby's book, How to Make Sense of Any Mess. Purchase Abby's book, Stuck, Diagrams Help. Sign up for the OOUX for AI & AI for OOUX meetup, May 16, 2024 at 3:00PM. Upgrade your career with The Self-Paced OOUX Masterclass! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ooux/support

On today's episode, Andrew Maier joins me for a discussion of usability testing and models.  We define usability testing and by using examples, we explore how it can make you a more efficient and effective developer.The Design of Everyday Things by Don NormanStuck?  Diagrams Help by Abby CovertHow to Make Sense of Any Mess by Abby CovertGamestorming by Dave Gray, Sunni Brown, and James MacanufoAbout Face by Alan Cooper, Et al.3 Lessons From Teaching A Course On UX Design by Andrew MaierFlagrantAndrew Maier on TwitterAndrew Maier on Mastodon

Power of Ten is a podcast hosted by Andy Polaine about design operating at many levels, zooming out from thoughtful detail through to organisational transformation and on to changes in society and the world. My guest in this episode is the wonderful Abby Covert, an author, teacher and community leader in the field of information architecture who aims to make information architecture and sensemaking skills accessible to everyone. Abby's first book, How to Make Sense of Any Mess, demystified information architecture into a practical skillset that anyone can apply to any context where sense might need to be made. She recently published her second book, Stuck? Diagrams Help a field guide for the trek from diagram novice to diagram nerd. Show Links This show's web page Abby Abby's website Stuck? Diagrams Help How to Make Sense of Any Mess Abby's Etsy shop Abby on LinkedIn Abby on Twitter Andy Subscribe to Power of Ten Subscribe to Andy's newsletter Doctor's Note Andy's online courses Andy on Twitter Andy on LinkedIn Polaine.com Suggestions? Feedback? Get in touch!

Okay, take a guess... Which services are probably the most challenging to design? I argue that it's the services that your users don't explicitly ask for. Wait, what?! Who designs services that their users don't ask for? Well, your government does. A lot. Think of public services like collecting taxes, keeping your street clean, and providing quality education, and helping to alleviate poverty. These are often the "forgotten" services that are so important in order to maintain the wellbeing of our cities and countries. It's one thing to make sure these services are available, but a completely different challenge to improve the experiences of these forgotten services. Our guest, Sally Halls, has taken on this challenge and is using service design to bridge the gap between citizens and policy-makers. In this episode, we'll explore how to design services that people haven't explicitly asked for, how to bring the public's voice into policy-making, and the impact service design professionals can have on the public sector. Sally also shares her experience with service design and how it can be used to benefit the public sector. The insights from this episode can be used in any sector. If you're dealing with abstract or high-level goals in your work, then you'll surely pick up a few nuggets of wisdom from this conversation. Enjoy! - Marc --- [ 1. GUIDE ] --- 00:00 Welcome to episode 169 06:00 Who is Sally 07:00 60 second rapid fire 09:30 Three types of services 14:30 Preventative service misconceptions 18:30 Specific challenges 23:00 Taking the first step 25:30 How to find fulfillment 28:00 Evidencing services 30:45 What are arms length services 35:00 Is this still our work 37:45 What is the most difficult 40:15 Mistakes and pitfalls 44:30 What do you wish you had known 46:30 Recommended resources 47:15 Closing thoughts --- [ 2. LINKS ] --- https://www.linkedin.com/in/sally-halls-a3715417/ https://publicpolicydesign.blog.gov.uk https://openpolicy.blog.gov.uk/category/skills-tools-and-techniques/ https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-policy-making-toolkit --- [ 3. BOOKS ] --- Hello World by Hannah Fry - https://amzn.to/3EcDZYH How to Make Sense of Any Mess by Abby Covert - https://amzn.to/3IqWI5k Why We Get the Wrong Politicians by Isabel Hardman - https://amzn.to/3XzLwYt Good Strategy Bad Strategy by Richard P. Rumelt - https://amzn.to/3RZRZKZ --- [ 4. SELLING SERVICE DESIGN WITH CONFIDENCE ] --- Learn how to get buy-in for service design from your clients, stakeholders and co-workers! https://www.servicedesignshow.com/confidence

Abby Covert is an information architect, writer and community organizer with two decades of experience helping people make sense of messes. In addition to being an active mentor to those new to sensemaking, she has also served the design community as President of the Information Architecture Institute, co-chair of Information Architecture Summit, and Executive Producer of the I.D.E.A Conference. Abby is a founding faculty member of School of Visual Arts' Products of Design graduate program. She also managed the team that helped Rosenfeld Media to start both the Design Operations Summit and Advancing Research Conference. Her most proud achievement is having come up with the idea for World Information Architecture Day, bringing accessibly priced education to thousands in their local communities annually. In addition to running events, you may have seen her presenting her work on stage at: Blend, Business to Buttons, Confab, Creative Mornings, Designing for Digital, EdUI, EMACTL, EuroIA, Generate, GIANT, IA Summit, IA Conference, Italian IA Conference, Interactions, Midwest UX, Mind the Product, Momentum, Plain Language Summit, SearchLOVE, STC Summit, TalkUX, UI21, UI22, UX Cambridge, UX Ottawa, UX Lisbon, UX Tokyo, UX Week, Webstock, Wharton Web Conference, World IA Day Abby has written two books for her students. In 2014 she published How to Make Sense of Any Mess, a book to teach IA to everybody. In 2022, she released her much anticipated follow-up, Stuck? Diagrams Help. She currently spends her time making things that help you to make the unclear, clear, many of which she makes available for free on her website abbycovert.com or at accessible price points in her popular Etsy shop AbbytheIA. Abby lives and writes from Melbourne, Florida where her most important job title is ‘Mom'. Episode Notes Products & Guides for SensemakersHow to Make Sense of Any MessSTUCK? Diagrams HelpMy Monthly Email List Related Episodes Episode #223: Cole Nussbaumer Knaflic Episode #203: Alli Torban Episode #198: Scott Berkun Episode #145: RJ Andrews Episode #2: Dear Data iTunes Spotify

For anyone who needs a little help with potty training, this is your podcast! Michelle discusses Elimination Communication, classic potty training, and potty training the special needs child. This podcast is the second of 2 podcasts. Be sure to listen to last week's podcast, as well. Introduction1:37 What about other caregivers?2:50 What about travel and potty training?4:18 Sticking with potty training and backsliding6:00 The frustrated mom9:28 Potty training special needs kids17:46 Resources19:01 ClosingMichelle is CEO of The Potty School, consultant, speaker, and teacher. She has written The Complete Guide to Potty Training Your Child- Expert Solutions for Any Mess. You can get her book here. (affiliate) She has also appeared on KTLA, Channel 5 out of Los Angeles, OC Parenting, and MSN. The Website for The Potty School is Thepottyschool.com. If you have any response to this or other podcasts, please reach out to me. Also, if you have a topic you would love to hear about on Adventure Parenting with Grace, please let me know! My email address is Laurie@kidstrength4life.com

For anyone who needs a little help with potty training, this is your podcast! Michelle discusses Elimination Communication, classic potty training, and potty training the special needs child. This podcast is the first of 2 podcasts. Introduction 2:16 When should I start potty training my child? 3:49 Elimination Communication 7:35 Toilet Independence 9:29 Potty training process 12:16 Night-time training 15:20 Toileting fears18:35 Importance of being on the same page 22:38 Closing Michelle is CEO of The Potty School, consultant, speaker, and teacher. She has written The Complete Guide to Potty Training Your Child- Expert Solutions for Any Mess. You can get her book here. (affiliate) She has also appeared on KTLA, Channel 5 out of Los Angeles, OC Parenting, and MSN. The Website for The Potty School is Thepottyschool.com. If you have any response to this or other podcasts, please reach out to me. Also, if you have a topic you would love to hear about on Adventure Parenting with Grace, please let me know! My email address is Laurie@kidstrength4life.com

Are you struggling with trying to potty train your child? In this segment, Michelle Swaney will give practical tips on potty training whether it is through elimination communication, practices, tools, and other resources to help you achieve your goal. See video here - https://youtu.be/gw457SazQss WHO IS MICHELLE? Michelle D. Swaney is the CEO of The Potty School®, a Potty-Training Consultant, Speaker, and Teacher of in-person & online classes. She is the author of The Complete Guide to Potty Training Your Child: Expert Solutions for Any Mess, and the creator of, and an admin for, three Support Groups for Potty Training (72K) and Elimination Communication (17K) where she helps over 92,000 motivated families move toward the next step on their family's pottying journey… ultimately toward potty independence. If you're interested in booking Michelle Swaney as a speaker for your Live Events and Summits or as a Podcast Guest/Guest Blog Writer, complete the form below and you'll be contacted by The Potty School's Media Team within 2-business days with a response. MICHELLE'S CALL TO ACTION Learn more about The Potty School, and their consultation offerings & Diapers to Flush membership at: www.thepottyschool.com www.diaperstoflush.com GENESIS'S INFO https://thehello.llc/GENESISAMARISKEMP CALL TO ACTION Subscribe to GEMS with Genesis Amaris Kemp Channel, Hit the notifications bell so you don't miss any content, and share with family/friends. **REMEMBER - You do not have to let limitations or barriers keep you from achieving your success. Mind over Matter...It's time to shift and unleash your greatest potential. If you would like to be a SPONSOR or have any of your merchandise mentioned, please reach out via email at GEMSwithGenesisAmarisKemp@gmail.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/genesis-amaris-kemp/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/genesis-amaris-kemp/support

Gillian relocated from New York City to Chicago to explore her identity as a creative writer in grad school after a decade in technical writing and corporate communications jobs. Fast forward a couple years after finishing her MA in writing and publishing, the opportunity to work as a content strategist presented itself. She seized it and never looked back.As a content strategist, Gillian has found work that allows her to “lift people up,” a value she aims to live by. She spends her working hours determining what content will help people with varied backgrounds and abilities use apps, websites, and software. Her path to content strategy has required self-advocacy, extensive personal time devoted to learning new skills, and a few contract-based roles that didn't offer the benefits and security of full-time jobs. All of which Gillian explores generously in this inaugural episode of The Work Seminar.*Please excuse a few minor background audio blips. What Gillian has to say is well worth enduring the occasional snap, crackle, or pop.*Books & other resources mentionedContent Strategy for the Web by Kristina HalvorsonHow to Make Sense of Any Mess by Abby CovertFollow Carrie Hane (@carriehd) on TwitterCheck out more from The Work SeminarVisit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media. Sign up for The Work Seminar newsletter to receive updates straight to your inbox.Support the show

No guest in this episode. Instead, I answer listener questions. If you have a question you'd like me to address on the show, please email me at live@theinformed.life or tweet to @informed_life. Listen to the show Download episode 67 Show notes The Informed Life episode 17: Rachel Price on Improvisation The Informed Life episode 65: Sarah Barrett on Architectural Scale A brief history of information architecture (pdf) by Peter Morville Information Architects by Richard Saul Wurman David Macaulay Alexander Tsiaras Why Software is Eating the World by Marc Andreessen (WSJ paywall) Dave Gray The Information Architecture Institute How to Make Sense of Any Mess by Abby Covert Information Architecture: For the Web and Beyond by Louis Rosenfeld, Peter Morville, and Jorge Arango The Information Architecture Conference World IA Day Information Architects Facebook group UX Design Information Architecture LinkedIn group Mags Hanley's Information Architecture Masterclasses Jorge Arango's Information Architecture Essentials workshop Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the transcript A question from Vinish Garg The first question comes from Vinish Garg. And I apologize if I have mispronounced that. Vinish is based in Chandigarh, and he writes, "the design agencies with around a hundred plus headcount have big and experienced teams in user research, interaction, design, and UX design. But many of them don't have an information architect. How do they see the need of a specialist IA and make space for this role?" And he adds a postscript, he says "those who have an IA, I spoke to many of them, but they are doing wireframes or card sorting without really understanding anything of taxonomy or findability. This is misplaced IA." All right. So, let me take the question first. Information architecture in general has withered as a job title. In the last 20 years, we've seen fewer and fewer people signing up to become information architects in organizations, not just in internal design teams, but also in agencies. In fact, I don't know many organizations that still have internal information architects. One notable exception — and I'm just calling it out because we've had two of their folks in the show — is Microsoft. Rachel Price and Sarah Barrett, both former guests of The Informed Life, are information architects within Microsoft. So, that's an example of an organization that still has the role internally. But I think that the more common scenario is that there is someone with another job title. It might be a UX designer or interaction designer or something like that, is tasked with structuring the system somehow. Sadly. I think that the even more common scenario is that no one does this explicitly at all, and they're just basically painting screens. I suspect that is the more common scenario. And it's a shame, because information architecture is very important, especially if you're dealing with a large complex system that presents a lot of information to end users. I want to comment a bit on the postscript. I think that it may be the case that there are people who, as Vinish points out, are practicing what they call information architecture, but they're doing it very superficially. And I encounter this most often in the confusion that people have between site maps and information architecture. I've seen folks draw up an outline in the form of a site map and basically call it a day. A site map is a useful artifact for communicating structural intent, but there's much more to information architecture than making a site map. And for many interactive systems, a site map might not even be the most appropriate artifact to communicate intent. Site maps tend to be very hierarchical, which is something that is more appropriate for some systems than others. I expect that, given the waning of information architecture, as I was saying earlier, much of what is practiced today under the rubric of information architecture is kind of cargo cult IA, where folks go through the motions of doing something like putting together a site map without understanding the reasoning behind the decisions they're making or why they're even making the artifact at all. And this is not something that's unique to IA. There are a lot of other areas of practice, other disciplines, where folks adopt the superficial trappings of the practice without really understanding the foundations. And in the case of information architecture, the foundations have to do with making meaningful distinctions. So, setting things aside in categories that are recognizable to the users of the system, that allow them to relate to the information in the system in meaningful ways, with the goal of ultimately making the system easier to use by making information easier to find and understand. Now, Vinish asked specifically about the context of agencies. I don't know much about the Indian market, but here in the U.S., the role of agencies in the design process has also waned as compared to 20 years ago. A lot of the work is happening internally in organizations, and that might be part of the reason why the role has waned as well. Because I think that people think about information architecture — if they think about it at all — when there's a major system change, when there's a redesign or a new product is being built and not so much during the day-to-day operations of the system. Again, there are exceptions. I called out Rachel and Sarah, who are part of a team that has ongoing responsibilities, because it's such a large system where so much content is produced. But in many cases, folks only need to do this sort of thing when they're making a major change, when they're implementing a new system or redesigning a system, as I said before. Which would lead me to expect that it is a role that would be more appropriate for design agencies, if, for no other reason, because design agencies do deal with more projects at the beginning their life, as opposed to the operational phase of the project. But alas, as Vinish points out, the role has also been waning in agencies as well. I don't know how they see the need for IA specialists. I don't know that they'd see the need for IA specialists. I believe that more likely they are experiencing the pain of not having an information architect in the team. Peter Morville has written of the "pain with no name" in reference to information architecture, this idea that people in the team might know that there's a problem, but they don't know how to name it. And they don't know that I'm more careful distinction making our structuring of the information in the environment might be part of the solution. And the net result is that frankly, information architecture isn't as popular as it used to be. And that may be a failing on the part of us who practice IA. We simply haven't been very good at explaining why it's important, why it's needed and why teams should consider having folks look after this stuff. That said, I know that there are people doing it out there. They just don't have the job title information architect — or at least that's what I would like to be the case. A question from Jose Gutierrez The next question comes from Jose Gutierrez; I think Jose is writing from Costa Rica. He writes, "I'm curious about what subjects does IA impact, but people normally don't associate with." These days, most people who think about information architecture — at least the few that do — think of it in relation to user experience design or digital design. But when I first learned about information architecture, I did so through Richard's Saul Wurman's 1996 book Information Architects. The impression that I got from that book was that IA was much, much broader. The very cover of the book has three definitions of what information architects are, and the first one says, "the individual who organizes the patterns inherent in data, making the complex clear." There's nothing in there about digital anything. We encounter patterns inherent in data and complexity in many different parts of reality, not just in digital systems. In fact, while the book touches on digital design, it's remit as much broader. It profiles folks like author David Macaulay, who has produced a series of wonderful books that explain how things work, or Alexander Tsiaras who works in medical imaging. And there's also cartography and illustration and yep, also some digital design, like structuring websites and that sort of thing, which is what we today, mostly associate with information architecture. And this isn't surprising because as software has eaten more of the world — to use Marc Andreessen's memorable phrase — more and more of our information is digital, and we experience more of the information that we deal with in digital environments. But structuring information to ease findability and understandability is much older than computers. I remember seeing a presentation many years ago by Dave Gray on the history of the book as an artifact, which really opened my eyes to this. Before there were books, we would write down information in things like scrolls. And what we know of as books — the form of a book, what is called a codex — was an innovation. It allowed for greater portability and random access to the information in the book, because you didn't have to unroll the whole thing to get to a particular section. Those were all innovations, right? But the very first codexes didn't have things like page numbers or tables of contents or indices or any of those things, and those were all innovations that allowed readers to find information more easily in books. I think that those are examples of information architecture, and they are many centuries old. So, any time that you're trying to make things easier to find and understand — whether it be in a book or a built environment or a medical image, or an app — Information architecture can help. As I said, in response to Vinish's question, I consider the essence of information architecture to be about making more meaningful distinctions. And this is something that applies to all sorts of aspects of reality. In fact, part of the intent for launching this podcast was precisely because I think that information architecture manifests in so many different fields. And I'm very interested in hearing from folks about how structuring, categorizing, organizing information more mindfully helps them get things done. A question from Elijah Claude Finally, here's a question from Elijah Claude. And again, I hope that I am pronouncing your name properly. I believe that Elijah is writing from Atlanta. He writes, " what are some of the best ways to learn good information architecture outside of school and work. In other words, how do you do personal projects where you can practice real information architecture? Great resources for IA books, podcasts, videos, et cetera." This question has two parts. So, there's a part that has to do with learning IA. And there's another part that has to do with practicing IA in our everyday lives. I must note upfront that I personally don't like to draw hard lines between life, work, school and all these things. I think that you can practice information architecture at any time. Information architecture is as much a mindset as it is a practice. And it's a mindset that has to do with looking beneath the surface of things to the way that things are organized and structured, and the ways in which we create shared meaning in how we organize and structure things in our world. That sounds a little abstract, so I'll give you an example. When we moved into the house that we're currently living in, my wife and I had a conversation about where we were going to store the various objects in our kitchen. So, we had boxes with things like plates and cutlery and food items, spices, and such. There are many categories of food items. There are dry foods, and there are big bulky foods that take up a lot of space, things like sacks of flour, rice and stuff like that. And here we are in this new house with a different layout than the one that we're used to, and many places in which to put things. And we had to coordinate where we were going to store things. Because if not, we would make it very difficult for each other to find things when we need them. And that's something that happened somewhat organically. We had an informal conversation saying, "Hey, maybe the cutlery can go in this drawer. And maybe this cabinet close to the stove would be perfect for things like spices and so on." Some things were obvious where they should go, others less so — and the arrangement has evolved over time. Over the time that we've been living here, we've occasionally moved things and found better ways to organize our kitchen. So, it's an ongoing thing and we talk about it. I think that it would be different if either one of us was organizing the kitchen for ourselves as individuals. When you must consider that at least one other person is going to be sharing the place with you, then you must take into consideration how they are going to be able to navigate the environment to find the stuff that they need. And I consider that to be an information architecture challenge. I'll give you another example. And funny enough, this one also has to do with our kitchen. Recently, we discovered that we have a minor problem. This is something that has emerged in the pandemic. It used to be that before the pandemic, I would often work outside of the house. And of course, with the arrival of the pandemic, more of us have been working from home. And as I've started working from home — and I tend to wake up very early — I would find that some days I would feed Bumpkin, our dog. I would feed bumpkin. And then, later in the morning, my wife, who normally feeds Bumpkin, would come along and would feed him not knowing that that I had already fed him. Bumpkin can be very insistent if he's hungry. So, if he comes knocking on my home office door, I will feed him because that's what gets him to stop knocking. And my wife and I have been prototyping a system to let each other know if Bumpkin has eaten or not. I wrote two sticky notes, one that said, "Bumpkin has eaten breakfast" and the other one said, "Bumpkin has eaten dinner." And we put it up on the cabinet where we keep his food. And the idea was that every time that she or I fed him a meal, we would place the appropriate sticky on the outside of the cabinet door. And that kind of worked for a while. But the glue the sticky started wearing out after switching them around so many times. So, we tried something else. We tried another sticky, this one on the refrigerator door with a checkbox. And one checkbox says, "Bumpkin has eaten breakfast" and the other checkbox says, "Bumpkin has eaten dinner." And we have a little magnet that we move between them. And what we discovered with that new prototype is that the sticky is much more resilient, because we're not moving it around, but it's in the wrong part of the environment because we're normally not looking in the refrigerator when we're feeding Bumpkin. So, we often forget to move the magnet. And I'm now thinking about the third rev of this thing, which would combine the two. And this will probably involve putting some kind of magnetic board on the door where we keep the dog food. And I consider all of these to be information architecture problems. On the one hand, clarifying the distinction between what was the last meal that Bumpkin had eaten, that's information architecture. And another is the location of this marker in the environment. Like I said, we were having a lot more traction when we had the sticky on the door that had the dog food in it than when we put it on the refrigerator door. And the only reason why we did it, there was a completely technical reason, which is that the fridge is already magnetized. So, these are examples of information architecture or architectural thinking at play in real-world problems — admittedly a very simple one. But it's not unusual. It's not unusual for us to apply that kind of mindset to organizing the real world. It's how we make sense of things. It's how we structure our environments so that we can get things done. And it doesn't just happen in information environments, it happens in physical environments as well. So, that's with regards to the practice question. The learning question is a bit tougher, because as I have said in the previous questions in this episode, interest in information architecture has waned over the last 20 years. So, resources are less plentiful than they used to be. The Information Architecture Institute, which was the preeminent place that I would point people to who wanted to learn about IA has seized operations. It feels to me like the discipline is in something of a state of transition. I am sure that there is a robust future for information architecture, but it's hard for me right now to point to any one definitive resource and say, this is what you should check out. There are books. That is the first thing that I recommend that folks check out. And Elijah, given the fact that you asked about non-work or school related contexts, the number one book that I would recommend for you, if you haven't seen it already, is Abby Covert's How to Make Sense of Any Mess, which is a primer on information architecture. It's a beautiful book in that it really articulates the core issues that transcend digital in a very useful way. Another book — and this one is, alas, a bit self-serving — is the fourth edition of the polar bear book, Information Architecture: For the Web and Beyond. And I say it's self-serving because I had the great privilege of having been invited to coauthor the fourth edition alongside the original authors, Lou Rosenfeld and Peter Morville. And that book is more specific to digital information environments, but I still think that it's one of the best places to learn about IA. There are also conferences. The two most prominent are the Information Architecture Conference and World IA Day. Both of those happen in the spring. The IA Conference is global. It usually happens in one city and folks fly from all over the world — or at least they did in the before times. The last two years, it's been virtual because of COVID. But it's more global, and it's a central gathering for IAS and the IA-curious. If you are interested in learning more about IA, I would recommend that you participate in the IA Conference. World IA Day is more of a localized initiative. It's a single day event and many cities participate around the world. It's driven by the communities in those cities. So again, super local. And it's a great way to meet people who are interested in information architecture in your own community. So, those are two events that I recommend: the IA Conference and World IA Day. There's also social media. There is at least one group on Facebook that is dedicated to information architecture. I know that there are also groups in LinkedIn. I haven't participated much in either of those, but I know that they exist. If that's what you prefer, you have those options. And then there are also courses. I know that Mags Hanley has a course on information architecture and by the way, a little bit of a spoiler: Mags is an upcoming guest of the show. We don't get in depth into her course, we talk about other subjects, but I know that Mags has a course that she does online and that may be worthwhile checking out. And then I have a workshop that I've done several times called Information Architecture Essentials, which is designed to introduce folks to the discipline. And I'm in the process of turning that into an online course as well. And by the way, if you are interested in that, I would love to hear from you, because I'm in the process of crafting that now. I'm also interested. If you have suggestions for folks like Elijah who want to find out more about information architecture. I would love to learn about other resources I might've missed, so please do get in touch. Closing So, there you have it, the first listener question episode of the show. I have other questions that folks sent in, but we didn't get a chance to get to them. So, I might do this again. Please do reach out if you enjoyed this episode, if you think I should do another one, and most especially, if you have a question yourself that you would like me to answer on the show. You can find contact information on the show's website at theinformed.life. That's also where you can find show notes and a transcript for this episode. For now, I want to thank Vinish, Jose, and Elijah for their questions. And thank you for listening. As a reminder, please rate or review the show in the Apple Podcasts app or in the Apple podcast directory. This helps other folks find it. Thanks!

Lily Konings is a Product Designer at Facebook, working on messaging experiences within Instagram. Before Facebook, she was at AngelList, where she improved the job searching experience for millions of candidates and worked at IBM Watson Health. In this episode, Lily had shared great insights on how to design your design career; we spoke on how can designers be industry ready in the constant developing space. Lily shared few techniques (do's & don't) that she had personally used to increase her growth both professionally and personally as a designer; along with that, we discussed how designers could craft their own narrative as they grow in their career? And also how to reflect the same narrative in their portfolios. Takeaways- How to be industry-ready always, How to cultivate a growth mindset, How to craft narratives. Tales from Designers around the world - https://medium.com/design-warp Lily's Newsletter - https://lilykonings.substack.com Lily recommends books/blogs. How to Make Sense of Any Mess by Abby Covert Intercom design blog Why Are We Yelling by Buster Benson If this episode helped you understand and learn something new, please share and be a part of the knowledge-sharing community #Spreadknowledge. This podcast aims to make design education accessible to all. Nodes of Design is a non-profit and self-sponsored initiative by Tejj.

My guest today is my friend Abby Covert, also known as Abby the IA. Abby is a Senior Information Architect at Etsy. She wrote the book How to Make Sense of Any Mess, a wonderful primer on information architecture, and co-founded World IA Day. She's also taught graduate design students and curated global conferences about design. She's done many of these things remotely over the last decade, which makes her a great guide for how to collaborate in our new reality. Listen to the full conversation   Show notes Abby the IA (Abby Covert's website) Etsy How To Make Sense of Any Mess, by Abby Covert World Information Architecture Day Fax machines Melbourne, Florida Rosenfeld Media Advancing Research Conference School of Visual Arts Photo of Abby's home setup DesignOps Summit The Museum of the Moving Image Louis Rosenfeld Zoom Zoom Webinar Slack Cheryl Platz Mural Steinberg UR12 Herman Miller chairs Opening sequence of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the full transcript Jorge: Abby, welcome to the show. Abby: Thank you so much for having me. Jorge: For folks who might not know you, would you please introduce yourself. Abby: Sure. So, my name is Abby Covert. I am the senior staff information architect at Etsy. I also am the author of a book came out about five years ago called How To Make Sense Of Any Mess, which is a beginner's guide to information architecture. You might also have, heard of my work in terms of World Information Architecture Day. It's an event that I hold very close to my heart and it takes place in 60 plus locations every year in February, celebrating information architecture and bringing information architecture thinking to new communities and people who are interested in that. Jorge: For folks who might not have seen your book, it is a really wonderful guide to this domain. And I'm wondering if you could recap for the listeners of the show, how you introduce information architecture. Abby: Sure. Yeah. So, information architecture, I think at its core is the way that we arrange the pieces of something to make sense as a whole. And one of the things I think is really interesting about that framing is that it basically means that it applies to everything. It means that you are probably practicing information architecture today in your own daily life. It means that many people who do not know the term information architecture are making information architecture decisions all day long for other people. And I think like through that framing, it really brings it to the right level of focus that I would like to see more people have in terms of understanding what the impact is of those choices on other people, and on our ability to get anything done. Jorge: One of the things I like about the book is that it frames it as a solution to making sense of messes, like it says in the cover. And we are recording this at a time when things feel a little messy, right? Abby: Just a little bit! Jorge: We're in the process of kind of… settling into “no new normal,” is the way that I've been describing it. And one of the reasons that I thought now would be a good time for us to talk on the show, is that many of us are now being asked to work remotely. And before I say anything else, I'll say that I consider the ability to work remotely as a privilege in these times, in that we can continue adding value in our homes from our computers. There are many, many people in our society who are not able to do that because they either work in a service industry that requires in-person presence, like folks in restaurants and stuff like that. So, I'll just to get it right out of the way, I consider what we're doing right now something that is really privileged. And you are also one of the people I know who has been doing it the longest — collaborating remotely — and I was wondering if you could tell us a bit about your experience doing that. Abby: Sure. Yeah. I mean, we could go back about 10 years when I decided that I was no longer going to a physical office anymore, or we could go back even further and talk about that I was actually homeschooled through all of my high school education. And by homeschooled, I mean I was in school at home. My parents both worked full time, so I wasn't taught by my parents. I was actually in a self-directed education program from ninth grade through my graduation. So, the basis of kind of my remote working experience started with a fax machine, which is sort of bizarre to dwell on at this point. But yeah, back then, I had textbooks that were mailed to me on subjects that you would see in a regular high school curriculum… chemistry, history, you know, sociology, all those things. But my assignments were delivered to me via fax. I would deliver them back to my instructors via fax. I remember every time the fax machine used to ring back then, I was excited because I would be getting my grades or getting some sort of feedback. So yeah my attachment to remote life I guess started really early and then fast forward to just 10 years back, I was a few years into my agency career, I had decided that I was not really liking the current location that I was in — I was in Chicago at the time — I wanted to move to New York, and I was about to go independent and it just made sense that I wouldn't get an office. I never really thought that it would lead me to the place I'm in now where three years ago I took on a full-time remote employee position with a company that is not entirely remote. So, Etsy has about 20% of us that are remote, and the majority of those folks are working out of their home offices, although some of them have co-working facilities and stuff like that. But yeah, I've really grown very attached to remoting. And I would say that the interesting reflection that I have in the current moment is that, somehow, I still show up at my desk in my home every day, and it's exactly the same as before all of this started, but it feels really, really different. And I think that that's really interesting that like my location has not changed, but somehow, I feel just as quarantined as all the rest of you. And I don't actually leave my house all that often, but it's more than your location, I guess, is the thing that I'm taking away from it at this point. Jorge: In what way has the feeling changed? Abby: Well, there's obviously the sneaking suspicion that dread is creeping in. There's that constant kind of flow. There's also just like, I think my empathy for my coworkers and my friends who are trying to go remote for the very first time under duress. You know, I'm kind of a… I've become sort of like everybody's remote mom. I'm telling people to get ergonomic chairs, I'm shaming them on video calls where I can see their spouse in the background and being like, look, you need to spend $500 on a chair. I'm telling you this is important for like, five years from now, you're going to thank me! When you don't have to pay a trainer to fix your back! So, there's this, all these little things that like, I guess emotionally watching the world go remote has been really a lot for me. And so even though I'm showing up and I'm in the same place all day, I'm doing very different things. I feel like I'm kind of everybody's emotional support friend right now about what it's like to be remote. But yeah, it's a lot. Jorge: Well, if I might read into it, it sounds to me like one of the changes that the current situation has triggered is that you're perhaps having to be a little more meta about it, like thinking more explicitly? Abby: Yeah. I mean, the only people that I ever had to give advice on going remote were people who were going remote because they were choosing to. So, there was a lot of like built-in excitement about this possibility, and in most cases when people have reached out to me for advice on that is because something really exciting is happening for them. You know, their spouse needs to move to another country, and they're able to keep their job, but they got to figure out this thing called remote work, or, you know, they've decided to start their own company, but they've always worked in an office job. So now we have to talk about what it's like to be self-directed in a remote environment. Like those are all happy moments. This is not a happy moment. Like, this is not a moment that anybody chose. This is not a moment that many people were excited about going remote for, so it's more like, I guess, yeah, remote under duress is not the greatest first experience. I would also just say like, I don't want to be like the poster child for remote work, but like this is not normal. This is not what remote feels like. Please do not take the next couple of months of experience that you have working from your homes with bad chairs and children running around screaming and all of your coworkers in a bad mood, like, that is not normal remote work. So please know that. I'm happy to give my experience and tips and tricks, but I just don't want anybody to walk away from this experience thinking like, this is what it's like all the time and that we would all choose this! It just doesn't make any sense. Jorge: One of the things that I've become aware of is that this situation, while it feels temporary, I expect is going to change us, in much the same way that something like 9/11 changed us, right? Part of the reason that I am wanting to talk to you about what you're doing to be more effective when working remote, is that the very fact that this has forced us down that path, hopefully is going to make us more effective at working remote. And it might be that some people don't go back to other ways of working, not out of necessity, but out of choice. Like they may discover that, hey, now I don't have to sit in a car for an hour and a half each way to get to my job, I can perfectly do this. Or maybe I'm actually even more efficient. Abby: I have a lot of coworkers, I have a lot of friends that have approached their organizations with the request to go remote. You know, there's, there's a lot of things about the cost of living in large cities that I think technology companies specifically should be really aware of in terms of the inequity that that creates and the types of people that they're able to attract in terms of talent. There's a certain kind of pattern to people's existence that in some cases includes going to a place where you can have a little bit of space to bring other humans in. You know, I know for me and James, that was our decision to leave New York city had everything to do with like, we want him to start a family and yes, you can have a family in Manhattan, I'm aware, but to be honest, I didn't want to work that hard. I wanted to do it the way that felt like it was achievable, that we could have a really sweet life and that required us to unplug from that whole system. And I think in a lot of cases, people have been told that if their job is not heads-down coding, then it is not a remote-appropriate job. You know, I was told by many people that they don't understand how I can do a collaborative function remotely. And even when I first started at Etsy, I was there almost every month. Because I needed to build that trust with my coworkers so that I could be away. And, and now, you know, I haven't been to the office since mid-December? I don't know when I'll go back again. I mean my coworkers aren't even there, so who knows when the next time I will be there, but my job has not changed. So, I think that there will be a revisiting of a lot of people's perceptions about remote work and what jobs are appropriate for work remote and which aren't. I hope that the consideration is not just from the practitioner side, I guess is my point. I hope that companies are also kind of changing their perspective and the choices that they make about the ability to offer that, because it's, it's really a benefit in some cases. For a lot of my coworkers at Etsy, the reason that they're remote is because they want to live near their families who don't live in major cities. They want to live in a place that has really great school systems. They want to live in a place where they can afford to buy a home. And those things are achievable in the remote life. And to only say that people who have coding as jobs or like deeply technical alone jobs as being remote appropriate, I think it's overly prescriptive. So, I hope it all changes. Jorge: And for the sake of listeners, you said you left New York, you're now in Florida, right? Abby: Yup! Sunny Melbourne, Florida. Jorge: You've not only worked remotely with organizations like Etsy, now. You've al so taught remotely and recently, you've also helped with Rosenfeld Media's Advancing Research Conference. And I'm wondering if you could be “remote mom” for all of us and share with us some of the things that you've learned to make all of those more effective. Abby: Sure. So, a little bit of background. The reason that I ended up teaching remotely — aside from, you know, like webinars and things like that — is, I was teaching in a graduate program for the School of Visual Arts when I lived in New York City and in my third year teaching, I told the chair of the program that I was going to move to Florida, that James and I really wanted to start a family, we were going to relocate, buy a house, do the whole thing. And I was effectively resigning at that point. He did not take the resignation, which I really, really appreciate looking back on it. He was like, “Nope, we're going to make this work. I want to keep you, I want you to do your job just like you did it before and, and we're just going to go remote.” So, I was really appreciative of the opportunity to do that. I did that for two years. My job was thesis coordinator-advisor slash information architecture, den mom, to the graduate program there. And so, I had a weekly studio class, a four-hour studio class once a week, and we moved it remotely. So, the way that we did that was a little bit different than what we would do if we were, you know, working under the circumstances that you all are. My students continue to meet in person. I was just remote. So, you know, I had a TA that would set me up on the big screen in a video conferencing situation, and I would give my lecture and I would have discussion with the students through that. And it was, it was a really interesting pivot for me. The things that I really learned were, in a four-hour studio class, I really needed to think about how much of that time was me talking at them. And it's interesting because that was not something I ever considered thinking about when I was with them in person. I just assumed that in that four hours, I should be talking a lot, I suppose, or whatever amount I needed to, to deliver the content and the value that I thought I was giving. But what I realized when I went remote was that I really needed to focus on giving them as much as I could of the value and the content I wanted to bring to them, but without boring them to tears, which I probably was doing before, but I didn't know it until I was like forced to watch it happen on a web connection. So, I reduced my lecturing down dramatically. I went to the 20-minute sermon format. So, at the beginning of every class we had a 20-minute sermon and it was like a tight 20 minutes. It was, I'm going to talk to you for 20 minutes, then we're going to have a discussion. The discussion is going to be based on what I asked you to come prepared for from last class, and then the rest of the studio time, I would set up an activity for them, and they would do the activity. And this was the hardest part for me as a remote teacher, because when I was in person, I felt the need to hover over all of the groups doing the work. But one thing that I always prided myself on, and also ticked off all my students with, was that I refused to enter into those discussions as another participant. So, in this class, they're doing all of these workshop activities and their thesis subjects — their individual thesis subjects — are the content that they're working through, and each one of them has their own subject that are not related to each other. So, the way that the exercises were formatted was that basically as one person's project was in focus, all of the other people were IA consultants on that person's project. Well, I am just another IA consultant, so if I'm walking into that interaction with less context than the rest of that group, I'm basically just dive bombing and I'm coming in as like, you know, another smart person, which I think is sometimes the worst thing you can possibly be in a situation like that. So remote made it way easier; I was just not there. And the way that we kind of manage the, “are they still going to do what I'm asking them to do,” is I just stayed on my computer. I was open in a window working on Etsy stuff while they were in the studio with a camera pointed at them. With the sound on, which sounded crazy, because it's just like the sound of lots of muffled talking. But if ever there was a point where they were like, I have a question or my group is stuck or something weird is happening with this activity, they could just walk up to the laptop and address me, just like they could walk up to me sitting next to my podium in the real person environment. So yeah, it was, it was a really interesting transition, I think it worked fairly well. I wish that I could continue that position, but you know, other things happened. I got pregnant, I had a beautiful baby boy and took some time off for that. Now I'm figuring out how to stitch my life back together, coming out of that. So, so yeah, no more teaching remotely for me for now, but it was a really good experience. Jorge: It sounds like the studio-based experience was very synchronous, right? Like the students were meeting in a single room, as you said, and you were there kind of live but remote. Were you also using any asynchronous channels? Abby: Yeah. So, the main asynchronous channel for us was email. I'm pretty old school about that. At least at that point, I was not on Slack or any of those things, and nor was my program. They might've moved to something like that by now. I wouldn't be surprised to find out. But one thing that I did that I found to be a really good asynchronous activity was I had a weekly survey that I had them tell me about how they were feeling. I had them kind of give me, their emotions around their thesis topic that week, I had them tell me the things that they were hoping to accomplish that week, I had them tell me if they accomplished the things that they had said they were going to accomplish the week before. So, we moved sort of like the status check-in that you would maybe have in more of like a round table, office hours kind of environment. We moved that to a survey and so that that made it so I could passively kind of keep an eye on their emotional health and kind of like where they were in their thought process with each of their projects. And that gave me a really good insight into when I might need to intervene into somebody's life. So like if I saw something come through in those surveys that made me feel, like, “Oh, okay, this person needs extra time,” I would then reach out to them on email and see if I could get time with them or if we could work something out over email. So that sort of added that part. Jorge: Can you share with us some insights into the work you just completed with The Advancing Research Conference? You shared a photograph of your setup, a nd I'll describe it for listeners, there were two laptops there. But what was your role in the conference, and can you share with us your setup? Abby: Yeah, sure. So, the conference is The Advancing Research Conference run by Rosenfeld Media. and Rosenfeld runs a series of conferences. I'm actually involved with another one called The Design Operations Summit, that happens every fall. We — about a year and a half ago — started talking about starting a new conference about research, specifically the idea of, can a conference or a community advance the topic and function and professional research? And we were really seeing a lot of opportunity to do that kind of work, to bring those sorts of people together around content in a conference environment. So, we went through the whole planning process, assuming that we were going to have a two-day, in-person conference at this beautiful venue, The Museum of Moving Images, in Astoria, in New York, right outside of New York City, and it was just going to be so great. It was so exciting, just the content and the curation approach. My role on the team is I'm one of four curators, so I was responsible for a team of speakers. They made up a quarter of the content of the conference. So, it was just like a really inspiring group of people, and the whole time we're thinking this is going to be in person, this is going to be great. And then, everything went wrong. So, about a month ago, it started to feel really uncomfortable that we were proceeding with an in-person event. We started to get some conversation on speakers and attendees about whether or not we were going to cancel, whether or not we were going to postpone. And Lou and team really rallied and made all of the assessments that needed to be made, and we finally made the call about two weeks prior to show-time that we were going to go all remote for the two-day conference. We did end up postponing our workshops — that was not something that we could accomplish getting online that quickly — but for the conference content, you're like, single track conference, 20 sessions, 300-something attendees, let's do this. And honestly, it was beautiful. It was beautiful to watch. It was beautiful to watch the team rally around a real challenge. It was beautiful to see our speakers just commit and dig in and say, we're in this with you. And ultimately, it turned into something that was better than I could've even imagined. You know this literally just ended yesterday as we're talking, and I am starting to think, would it have been as good if it was in person? And that is something that, if you had told me a month ago that the day after the conference, I would be thinking that about the all-digital version? I just couldn't even imagine. So, yeah, it was a real moment. Jorge: Well, that makes me very excited to learn more about how you did it. Abby: Okay. So, the conference was run on Zoom and all the credit for the operations of this goes to Rosenfeld Media. Obviously, my remote experience, I consulted with them on how to put it all together, but ultimately, like that team, this is on their backs. They did an amazing, amazing job putting us together. So, all of the conference sessions were in Zoom. They were all run live. We talked about maybe doing prerecorded, but ultimately, we decided that for the benefit of the speaker being part of the moment, we really wanted to maintain the live. That did mean that we had speakers that were presenting in the middle of the night in their local time. We had somebody from Tasmania, a person dialing in from Sydney. And so, they were giving talks and the literal middle of the night when their kids are sleeping in the next room, which was also like its own really special, beautiful commitment to this whole thing. So we had all of the speakers dial into a Zoom with our MC and our theme leader of that theme, and then the audience was experiencing a live streamed webcast version of that Zoom, that was locked behind the paywall of the Rosenfeld Media site, so they would go to the live stream page, they would see what we were broadcasting. The speakers were seeing kind of the backstage view. So, they were dialed into a Zoom call much like the one we're in right now, but we had someone on the Rosenfeld side that was controlling whose camera and audio and whose slides are presented to the audience through that webinar. So, Zoom webinar is a product out there; it's something you can do, and it just gives you a little bit more lockdown control of what the audience is actually experiencing So that was the content part. Then we had the question of what about the networking? Like people go to conferences because of the content, but they're also in a lot of cases there for the networking; to meet other people, to feel that camaraderie, to meet their new work bestie. And we didn't want to lose that. We were really like worried that this would just turn into a set of videos that people would like watch over the coming weeks or months, and that's not a conference. That's a library of videos. So, we turned to Slack. They're like Slack can maybe do this. And our fearless MC, Cheryl Platz, who is absolutely amazing through this entire process, she really took on the like, “how do we make the social stuff happen?” and Slack was like the main hub. We were referring to Slack of sort of like “the atrium.” It was like, if you're at a conference, the atrium is sort of like where you enter, and like that's where registration is, and that's where everybody is talking before and after the sessions. So, we built Slack that way. So, Slack had different channels for all of the sponsors. So, in a real conference, in real person-land, you would go walk up to a sponsor's table. In an online conference, you go to their Slack channel, and you have a little chat with them. But then on top of that, we also did alternative sessions, in between the official sessions, in different Zoom rooms. So those were not the livecast version. This was like, people could come into the Zoom rooms, they could be on their video, they can be speaking out loud to the person who's moderating it, and that was all around like collaboration and also like a little bit of networking and fun. So, we had a bunch of activities that were run through those Zoom rooms. We just had like a virtual cocktail party the first night which people just showed up and chatted and we had a moderator and it was great. And then MURAL also became a really interesting plugin for us for this experience. So, our MC Cheryl put together a bunch of activities that were all coordinated through MURAL boards. So, we had a pet pageant where everybody put pictures of their pets. And we actually had a winner! And a runner up! And an honorable mention, which was a fish! Somebody's son's fish made honorable mention. But like they set up a MURAL board which was like put your pet in a category and we're going to vote, and there's judges. And so that was great. And then we had a COVID chat board on MURAL which was: worked well, needs to change, unanswered questions, new things to try. So, it was sort of like, taking the moment that we're all in and admitting the elephant in the room that like… We're all at this remote conference because of this thing, so let's talk about this thing. And, you know, with an audience of researchers, you would expect that they're constantly going to be researching each other. So that was really interesting to watch as well. So yeah. It was just like a combination of all the tools we already have, you know, which blew my mind. And I've been using these tools for years but to put them all together and get everybody online at the same time across time zones and all those challenges it was just… Yeah it was it was beautiful. Jorge: The photo that you shared showed two laptops. What was that about? Abby: People always react really funny to the two-laptop thing. The reason I have two laptops is because one of the laptops belongs to Etsy and the other belongs to Abby the IA. And I still work as Abby the IA, and I don't use my Etsy machine to do that. So, the lines do get blurry when I'm doing things like running a 300-person conference remotely for the first time, I did borrow on my Etsy machine a little bit. But my general setup is, I have two laptops. They are on a laptop riser. My husband built me a double laptop riser because they don't exist, from what I can tell in buying them. And then I have a big monitor, I have a 24-inch monitor, for each of them. The one on Abby the IA's side is turned to landscape because I work mostly on decks when I'm doing work as Abby the IA. So, it's, it's all like presentation decks. I do a lot of writing, which doesn't even require the secondary monitor. So that one is set that way. And then I have a portrait-aligned monitor for my Etsy machine, because at Etsy I deal with a lot of very, very, very, very, very, very, very long spreadsheets. So, I find that the portrait mode works well. And then, in terms of my accessory setup, which is also I think maybe unique, I have a full sized keyboard with a numpad, which a lot of people I guess don't have these days, but I find it is required for me to feel comfortable and ergonomically sound, which is very important. And so, I have that plugged into a USB switch selector that splits that keyboard out to both laptops. So, I choose which laptop to be typing on. And then I have two mice, they look exactly the same. So, one of them has a sticker on it that says Etsy, so that I know which one is which. And then I have some speakers. I've got a Steinberg UR-12 audio interface here. I've got a microphone that I don't use very often. Yeah, that's my tech setup. Jorge: You also talked about the importance of the chair; you mentioned it a couple of times. Abby: Herman Miller chairs with the best chairs. Ergonomic chairs, man! There are two things. There's the ergonomic nature of your chair, but there's also the, “how are you positioning your tools on your table?” So, the laptop riser is a really good example If you are sitting at a table and you are typing on a laptop keyboard, you are not ergonomically sound. And if you are doing that all, day every day, for the rest of your career, you will be very hunchy and not very comfortable in life. So yeah, the laptop riser is a big part of it, the external keyboard is a big part of it. I also have this really puffy-like foot riser thing. I don't know; it's kind of like a pillow but it's meant to sit on the floor for your feet to be slightly elevated. I'm also a short person so I think that has something to do with it. But, yeah, ergonomics! It's a thing. I'm not an expert, but it's a thing. Jorge: What I'm taking from this is that you have very mindfully configured your physical environment… Because you spend so much time dealing with these information systems, you have configured your physical environment so that your body will be comfortable and healthy while doing it, right? Abby: Yeah, and I mean I think like another part of that… I know your audience can't, see but the room that we're in right now is completely 100% dedicated to work. So, I don't come up here for any other reason than work. This room is actually a detached part of my home. So, our whole house is on the lower floor, and then above our garage is this weird room that is surrounded by bookcases, which is pretty cool, and windows. So, I work in this tree house that only is for work. So, the point you made about like my body feeling right about being at work? It applies to that too. Like when I walk in the door of this room, I feel like I'm out at work, in that way that like if I have to run up here to get my, you know I left my glasses on Friday afternoon and on Saturday morning I go to read and I don't have them and I have to go upstairs, it's like if I asked you to drive into your office on a weekend because you forgot something. It's weird! It feels wrong! I feel like, what day is it? It's just very strange. So, there's like little patterns like that. And I think that the physical separation of spaces is actually a really important one. And I understand when people say how hard it is to get into the mode of work from home. I understand that point because if I try to take this laptop and go do something downstairs. It's impossible. I can't get anything done! I have to be, like, in my workspace. Which is… It's weird! Jorge: You know your comments about having a separate space to go into made me think of this image that I always remember from my childhood, of the beginning of each episode of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood TV show, where he goes through the door and then he changes into the cardigan and changes his shoes, and that becomes like the little ritual that starts the show. Abby: Yup! Jorge: It's almost like you're getting into the mindset, where it was like I'm now leaving that world and I'm entering this world and even though it's there a few feet away, my mindset needs to change, right? Abby: Can I tell you a secret? Jorge: Please do! Abby: I'm wearing bedroom slippers right now! I tell you that because I usually do not wear bedroom slippers in my office. And actually yesterday, on the second day of The Advancing Research Conference, I made myself put on real shoes because I was just… I just wasn't able! Do you know what I mean? Like it was, just, there's something about the moment that we're in right now, where I'm finding myself wearing my bedroom slippers up to my office more. And I know that that's saying something about like where I'm at right now. Like you all should be very worried about me because I'm wearing bedroom slippers for probably the third day in a row today. So, no good! But yesterday afternoon? I righted the wrong! I went downstairs, and I was like I have to put on real shoes. And I did, and I felt better! So, I'm reminding myself to go put on real shoes after this! Jorge: That sounds like a great place to wrap the conversation: a reminder for everyone to put on real shoes, even as we're having to make this weird switch to our ways of working, right? Abby: Well at least take a damn shower! I mean, I find myself telling my coworkers to take a shower and not because they look weird or gross or anything but because like, it's obvious that we're not okay right now. And you know what? It's okay to not be okay right now. This is not normal. I don't want this to be normal. Please say this isn't normal! Jorge: It's not normal, but we still have to find ways of continuing with our lives, right? Like not everything in the world has to stop. And there are things that we can do to keep ourselves going, and you've highlighted several of those things which I'm very grateful for, Abby. So where can folks follow up with you? Abby: The best place to see me is probably on the internet. We've been talking a lot about that, that's where I live! So, AbbyTheIA.com is where you can read things that I've written. I'm also on Twitter. Same name. And then I'm a big email person. So, yeah, if you have like a meaty question you want to get int o about remote working, about information architecture, about whatever is top of mind from this conversation, I'm happy to field emails on that; that's AbbyCovert@gmail. Jorge: Thank you Abby. It was fabulous having you on. Abby: Thanks Jorge.

Abby Covert, better known as Abby the IA, returns to the show for a repeat appearance to talk about information architecture, her influential book, How to Make Sense of Any Mess, and life in the design world as a new mom (congratulations!). In this episode, she breaks down the steps to information architecture as outlined in her book, and shares some real-world stories of sensemaking from her readers.

Abby Covert, also known as Abby the IA, is a pioneer in the field of Information Architecture. Abby likes to think of herself as a “Sensemaker,” a role she believes is becoming more and more necessary in our increasingly messy world. To spread this message, Abby wrote the book How to Make Sense of Any Mess, helped found World IA Day that now has events all over the globe, and shared her thoughts on the subject here with us.

We are joined by User Experience Designer [Shannon McHarg](https://twitter.com/EfficientIxD) and Content Strategist [Ryan Johnson](https://twitter.com/forestglenroad), who both work at the [Office of Natural Resources Revenue](https://twitter.com/DOIONRR), an agency within the [United States Department of the Interior](https://twitter.com/Interior). We'll talk about an open source project they both contribute to called [Maine Ballot](https://maineballot.org/). ### Resources and Shoutouts: - [Maine Ballot](https://maineballot.org/) - [Don't Make Me Think](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18197267-don-t-make-me-think-revisited) - [UK Digital Service](https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/government-digital-service) - [Digital Transformation at Scale](https://www.andrewgreenway.com/book) - [How to Make Sense of Any Mess](http://www.howtomakesenseofanymess.com/) - [Natural Resources Revenue Data](https://revenuedata.doi.gov/) - [Heydon Pickering](http://www.heydonworks.com/) ##### Music Credit: [Tumbleweeds by Monkey Warhol](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Monkey_Warhol/Lonely_Hearts_Challenge/Monkey_Warhol_-_Tumbleweeds)

Abby Covert is an information architect at Etsy. She's the author of “How to Make Sense of Any Mess” and invented World IA Day. In this podcast, Abby talks about democratizing IA – Making IA approachable and useful to people in all walks of life. Abby's legacy will likely be taking IA out of the box and making it something that anyone can get value from because after all, IA makes the world a clearer place! UX-radio hosts podcasts about Information Architecture, User Experience and Design. Listen to inspiring conversations with industry experts. The purpose of this show is to educate, inspire and provide valuable information architecture and user experience resources.

You're sitting in front of a mound of user research data. How do you take that mound and make it into valuable bite-sized chunks? How do you make decisionmakers care? Abby Covert, author of How to Make Sense of Any Mess, shares her approach to packaging research in ways that get at what audiences need. Buy Abby’s book: https://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Sense-Any-Mess/dp/1500615994 Follow Abby on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Abby_the_IA Follow Rosenfeld Media: https://twitter.com/rosenfeldmedia

Jeffrey Zeldman's guest is Abby Covert, Information Architect; curator of IA Summit; co-founder of World IA Day; president of IA Institute; teacher in the Products of Design MFA program at New York's School of Visual Arts; and author of How To Make Sense of Any Mess, a “brilliant introduction to information architecture” (Peter Morville) that is frequently purchased at Amazon with Don't Make Me Think and The Design of Everyday Things, the two classics of usable design. Discussed: why IA matters now more than ever, the difference between IA and content strategy (IA is building the vehicle, CS is putting fueling it and making sure it won't run out of gas), writing and designing a book, building agreement among stakeholders, “not having opinions, not having ideas of one's own,” IA's origins in language and structure, the fun of the IA Summit, the creation and growth of World IA Day, the joy of teaching, and more.

Jeffrey Zeldman’s guest is Abby Covert, Information Architect; curator of IA Summit; co-founder of World IA Day; president of IA Institute; teacher in the Products of Design MFA program at New York’s School of Visual Arts; and author of How To Make Sense of Any Mess, a “brilliant introduction to information architecture” (Peter Morville) that is frequently purchased at Amazon with Don’t Make Me Think and The Design of Everyday Things, the two classics of usable design. Discussed: why IA matters now more than ever, the difference between IA and content strategy (IA is building the vehicle, CS is putting fueling it and making sure it won’t run out of gas), writing and designing a book, building agreement among stakeholders, “not having opinions, not having ideas of one’s own,” IA’s origins in language and structure, the fun of the IA Summit, the creation and growth of World IA Day, the joy of teaching, and more.

Abby Covert is an independent Information Architect and also the President of the Information Architecture Institute. She's the author of "How to Make Sense of Any Mess" and spends her life trying to make the unclear be clear. In this episode, she explains the difference between UX and IA, and sets Scott straight about some common misconceptions about information architecture.

Abby Covert, author of How to Make Sense of Any Mess, teaches us about information architecture, a subject she strongly feels is a core life skill. She's seen people get fired over language and informs us that – quite obviously in hindsight – architecture is less expensive than design.

A conversation with Abby Covert and Andrew Hinton about dealing with digital change. Recorded at UXLx 2015. Abby is an independent information architect and author of How to Make Sense of Any Mess. Andrew is also an information architect and author of Understanding Context.

In this episode, Adam talks to Katie Cerar, user experience designer at Boltmade. Katie talks to Adam about running a successful kick off meeting, understanding the problems your client is trying to solve, and strategies for getting clients to keep their ideas focused. Katie also talks about the difference between a prototype and an MVP, and how to choose the right prototyping tool to get the feedback you need. This episode is brought to you by Hired. The Opportunity Analysis Canvas by James Green Invision Prototyping Tool 5 Why's Jobs-to-be-Done User Story Mapping by Jeff Patton The Google Ventures Design Sprint How to Make Sense of Any Mess by Abby Covert The User Experience Team of One by Leah Buley The Rosenfeld Media Catalog Sponsored by Hired

Another DAM Podcast interview with Abby Covert on Digital Asset Management and Information Architecture Here are the questions asked: -How are you involved with Digital Asset Management? -As an Information Architect, you recently authored a book titled How to Make Sense of Any Mess (http://amzn.to/2pX7dTs). Tell us more about what we can learn from this book since many DAM professionals need to do the same. -What are the biggest challenges and successes you've seen with Digital Asset Management? -What advice would you like to share with DAM professionals, and people who are aspiring to become DAM professionals? For a transcript, visit http://anotherdampodcast.com/2015/05/14/abby-covert/ Questions? Email them to anotherdamblog@gmail.com #reDAM #UX #information #mess #IA

Abby Covert, Information Architect and Author of "How to Make Sense of Any Mess", talks with us about the integral role IA plays in every aspect of our lives. In regards to business, she discusses how the concepts of ontology, taxonomy, and choreography m Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices