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01:56 - Episode Intro: Who is Casey Watts (https://twitter.com/heycaseywattsup)? * Happy and Effective (https://www.happyandeffective.com/) 02:25 - “Gay” vs “Queer” * Cultural vs Sexual * Black vs black * Deaf vs deaf 06:11 - Pronoun Usage & Normalization * Greater Than Code Episode 266: Words Carry Power – Approaching Inclusive Language with Kate Marshall (https://www.greaterthancode.com/words-carry-power-approaching-inclusive-language) * Spectrum of Allyship (https://aninjusticemag.com/the-differences-between-allies-accomplices-co-conspirators-may-surprise-you-d3fc7fe29c?gi=decb57b48447) * Ambiguous “They/Them” 16:36 - Asking Questions & Sharing * Ring Theory (https://www.everhomehealthcare.com/post/ring-theory-and-saying-the-right-thing-in-2020) * Don't Assume * Take Workshops * Find Support * Set Boundaries * Overgeneralization * Do Your Own Research – Google Incognito (https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/95464?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop) 28:16 - Effective Allyship * Reactive vs Proactive * Parenting * Calling Out Rude Behavior – “Rude!” * Overcoming Discomfort; Getting Comfortable with Being Uncomfortable * Recognizing Past Mistakes: Being Reflective * Stratejoy (https://stratejoy.com/) * Celebrate Progress * Apologize and Move On * Microaggressions: Prevention & Recovery (https://www.happyandeffective.com/workshops/list/avoiding-microaggressions) * happyandeffective.com/updates (https://www.happyandeffective.com/updates) Reflections: Mannah: The people on this show are all willing to start and have conversations. Casey: I will make mistakes. I will find more support. Mandy: Reflection is always a work in progress. It's never done. Keep doing the work. People are always evolving and changing. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: PRE-ROLL: Software is broken, but it can be fixed. Test Double's superpower is improving how the world builds software by building both great software and great teams. And you can help! Test Double is hiring empathetic senior software engineers and DevOps engineers. We work in Ruby, JavaScript, Elixir and a lot more. Test Double trusts developers with autonomy and flexibility at a remote, 100% employee-owned software consulting agency. Looking for more challenges? Enjoy lots of variety while working with the best teams in tech as a developer consultant at Test Double. Find out more and check out remote openings at link.testdouble.com/greater. That's link.testdouble.com/greater. CASEY: Hello, and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 268. I'm Casey, and I'm here with co-host, Mannah. MANNAH: How's it going? I'm Mannah and I'm here with Mandy Moore. MANDY: Hey, everybody. It's Mandy and today, I'm excited because we are doing a panelist only episode. So our host and panelist, beloved Casey Watts, is going to take us through Casey did a LGBTQ panel for Women Who Code Philly a couple weeks ago and it went really great. He offered to do a show to talk about the subject in more depth on the show. So we're here to do that today. So without further ado, why don't you give us a little intro, Casey? CASEY: Sure. I'm going to start by talking about who I am a little bit and why I'm comfortable talking about this kind of stuff. My name's Casey, I'm a gay man, or a queer man. We can get into the difference between gay and queer [chuckles] in the episode. I live in D.C. and I really like my community groups that I'm in to be super inclusive, inclusive of people of all kinds of backgrounds and all the letters in LGBTQIA especially. MANDY: That's awesome. So right there, you just gave us an in. Can we get into the difference between gay and queer? CASEY: Yeah. I love it. People lately use the term “queer” as an umbrella term that represents all the letters in LGBTQIA especially younger people are comfortable with that term, but it is reclaimed. Older people, it used to be a slur and so, like my cousin, for example, who's older than me hesitates to use the word queer on me because she knows that it used to be used to hurt people. But queer people like this as an umbrella term now because it is just saying we're not the norm in gender identity, or sexual, romantic orientation, that kind of stuff. We're not the norm. We're something else. Don't assume that we're the norm and then it's not describing all the little nuances of it. It's just like the umbrella term. So I'm definitely queer and I'm gay. Another distinction that I really like to make and that's cultural versus specifically what the term means. So I'm gay and that I'm attracted to other men, but I don't hang out at gay bars and watch RuPaul's Drag Race like the mainstream gay man does in media and in life. I know a lot of people who love that I'm not comfortable there. I don't like it. I think drag queens are fun I guess, but they're also really catty and mean and I don't like that, and I don't want that to rub off on me personally. Instead, I hang out in groups like the queer marching band which has a ton of lesbian women, bisexual, biromantic people, asexual people, intersex people, and trans people and has all the letters in LGBTQIA and I love that inclusive community. That's the kind of group I like to be in. Some of the gay men there talk about RuPaul's Drag Race, but it's like a minority of that large group. I love being in the super inclusive cultures. So I'm culturally queer, but I'm sexually romantically gay. So depending on what we're talking about, the one is more important than the other. I have a story for this. Before the pandemic, I got a haircut at a gay barber shop. It's gay because D.C. has a lot of gay people and there's a gym above the barber shop that's pretty explicitly gay. They cater to gay people. They have rainbows everywhere. I got my hair cut and this woman just kept making RuPaul's Drag Race references to me that I didn't get, I don't get it. I don't know what she's saying, but I know the shape of it and I told her I don't like that and I'm not interested in it. Please stop. She didn't because she was assuming I'm culturally gay, like most of her clientele and it was really annoying and she wasn't seeing me, or listening to what I was saying and I was not seen. But she's right I was gay, but I'm not gay culturally in that way. Does that make sense? That's kind of a complex idea to throw out at the beginning of the episode here. A lot of people take some time to get your head around the cultural versus sexual terms. MANNAH: Yeah. That is interesting especially because with so many identities, I guess that's true for every identity where there's a cultural element and then there's some other thing. For instance, I'm a Black man and no matter where I hang out, or what I'm interested in, I'll always be a Black man, but there is associated with both masculinity and specifically, Black masculinity. CASEY: Yeah, and I like the – lately, I've been seeing lowercase B black to mean a description of your skin color and uppercase B Black to mean a description of the culture and I like that distinction a lot. It's visual. Deaf people have been using that for years. My aunt's deaf so my family has a deaf culture. I'm a little bit deaf culture myself just by proxy, but I'm not deaf. I'm capital D Deaf culturally in amount. Her daughter, who she raised, my deaf aunt, is culturally Deaf way, way more than the average person, but not fully because she's not deaf herself. So there's all spectrum here of cultural to experiencing the phenomenon and I was happy to see, on Twitter at least, a lot of people are reclaiming capital B black. And for me, it's capital Q Queer and lowercase G gay. That's how I distinguish into my head—culturally queer and I'm sexually gay. MANNAH: So one of the things, I've been thinking about this since our intro and for those of you listening, our intro is scripted and as simple as it was like, “Hey, my name is Mannah,” and passing it off to Mandy. Generally, when I introduce myself – I just started a new job. I introduced myself with my pronouns, he/him, because I think it's more inclusive and I want to model that behavior and make sure that people around me are comfortable if they want to share their pronouns. I do think that this is championed by the queer community and as a member of that community, I'd just love to hear your take on people being more explicit with that aspect of their identity. CASEY: I love the segment. Pronouns is a huge, huge topic in this space lately especially. I like to start from here, especially with older audiences that we used to have mister and miss in our signatures and in the way we address letters and emails, and that's gone away. So including pronouns is a lot like just saying mister, or miss, but we've dropped the formality. I'm glad to be gone with the formality, but we still need to know which pronouns to use and it's nice to have that upfront. I like and appreciate it. I try to include pronouns when I remember it and when I'm in spaces where that's a norm. I like to follow that for sure every time there. But I'm not always the first person to introduce it. Like if I was giving a talk and there were 30 older white men in the audience who've never heard of this idea, I might not start with he/him because I want to meet them where they're at and bring them to the point where they get it. So I'm not always a frontrunner of this idea, but I love to support it, I love to push it forward, and help people understand it and get on board. It's like there's different stages of allyship, I guess you could say and I really like helping people get from a further backstage to a middle stage because I don't think enough people are in that space and there are plenty of people getting people who are in the middle stage to the more proactive stage. Like, “We should use pronouns!” You hear that all the time in spaces I'm in. It's possible I can get pushback for that kind of thing, like even meeting people where they're at, and that frustrates because I want to be effective. I don't want to just signal that I'm very progressive and doing the right things. I want to actually be effective. I give workshops on this kind of thing, too. That's where we're coming from for the today's talk. MANDY: I think on the last show, it might have been Kate Marshall who said that normalizing pronouns is really important to do, but not just when there's an obvious person in the room who you're not sure. Maybe we even started off on the wrong foot on the show by not saying, “Hi, I'm Mandy, my pronouns are she and her.” Just adding that in to normalize it would be a really good step, I think. CASEY: Yeah, love it. Here's where I like to come with my role. Say, “Plus one, I love that idea. Let's do it now.” I like to activate the idea once it's in the room, but it takes someone brave to bring it up in the first place and it's a different amount of social energy, maybe in a different head space you have to be in to be that first person. But being the second is also very important and I like to help people understand that, too. If you're the second person, that's still being helpful. Maybe you can become the first person in some groups, but I want to celebrate that you're the second person even. That's great. Yeah, I think that's a good change we could do. MANNAH: You mentioned allyship and I think that that is why am so proactive in introducing myself with pronouns because I do present as a traditional man. Well, maybe not traditional, but I present as a man and I have the ability to deal with some of that pushback. We talk about superpowers on the show. I feel like one of my superpowers is I am willing to engage in those conversations, even if they are difficult. CASEY: Mm hm. MANNAH: So I can use my powers for good by starting that conversation perhaps, or starting to build that norm. Whether, or not I am doing it for anyone in particular, it is important for me to do it wherever we are. So I think that just wherever we can make spaces more inclusive with the way we can conduct ourselves and our language, it's important. CASEY: I have a framework to share that's kind of related to that. So there's a spectrum of allyship—that's my title for it anyway—that goes from an active detractor all the way over to an active supporter of an idea. In this case, the active supporter would be getting pronouns to happen in a space where they're not happening. And then in the middle, maybe you're neutral, not doing anything. In the middle on either side, there's a passive – like you're not doing anything, but you kind of support the idea. You're kind of against the idea, but you're not taking any action. And then on the active part, there's even a split between and being proactive and reactive. So for pronouns, I guess the way I'm self-describing here is I'm a reactive pronoun person. For better, or worse, that's where I'm at on that spectrum and that's where I like to help move things along. So I can talk to people who are more maybe passively against the idea because I'm not so far on the right. I like to use the spectrum for another purpose, which is moving people from one space to the next is valuable and often invisible. If you can get someone to be loudly against pronouns to just be quiet, that's a step forward. You've persuaded them a little bit to go in that direction, or if they're there to neutral, or neutral to passively supportive, but quiet about it. A lot of this kind of progress with people who aren't active supporters is invisible and that can be really frustrating for people; it feels like you're not making any progress. So for people who are allies and want to be allies, there's a step forward you can do for yourself, which is getting yourself from being reactive to being proactive. But you're not just helping the people in the room, but helping people who could be in the room, or might be in the future. Reactive to proactive. MANDY: I've been doing that a lot with just actually referring to everybody as they/them no matter if I already know how they present, or not. That, to me, is just the most inclusive way to refer to people in general. CASEY: Yeah, that's generally a safe practice, but there are people who don't want to be called they/them. MANDY: Hmm. CASEY: For example, I have some friends who… Let's imagine a trans man who wants to be considered he/him, they are very invested in this and they want the – If you keep calling them, they/them, even if they correct you, “He/him is my pronouns,” then they're going to be upset about that, pf course. But it is a safe, starting point because the ambiguous they is just generally, it's good grammar, the APA endorses it even. You're allowed to use they when it's ambiguous by grammar rules. But if you know someone's pronouns and it isn't they/them, it's generally better to use those because they prefer it. MANDY: Yeah. That's what I meant. If somebody says to me, “I would prefer you call me she/her, he/him.: But when I'm first, like if I'm even talking to say my dad and I'm talking about work, I would be like, “I have a friend, they did this.” CASEY: Yeah. That's ambiguous day and that's perfectly appropriate there. MANDY: Yeah. But as far as like addressing somebody on a regular basis who wants to be referred to as one, or the other, I have no problem doing that. I've just been training myself to use ambiguous terms because I see and I think it's wonderful. My daughter's 12 and almost all of her friends are non-binary. So when I meet them, or I'm talking about her friends for me, it's just more, I don't want to say easy. I don't want to make it sound like I'm doing it, like taking the easy way out, but I'll just be like, do the they/them stuff to have the conversation and then once I find out more, we can transfer over to the he/him, she/her as I'm corrected, or being asked to do one, or the other. CASEY: Right, right. It's definitely safer to assume you don't know than to assume someone's gender based on how they looked, for sure and the ambiguous they is perfect for that. Even for people who use they/them as pronouns, there's a switch in my head at least—you probably feel it, too—from ambiguous to specific. Like now I know they/them is their pronouns. MANDY: Yeah. I've had no problem. When my daughter has brought new people over, who I know are non-binary, I will say to them even if I already know, because she's told me, I'll be like, “What pronouns do you prefer?” And every single time these are 12-year-olds, 13-year-olds, they're like, “Thank you for asking.” CASEY: Yeah. MANDY: Because a lot of times, I feel it's not very accepted yet. So when I hear, or when they hear me say, “How would you like me to refer to you?” They smile so big. CASEY: Yeah, you're treating them like the individual person they are. MANDY: Exactly, and they're like, “Thank you,” and now I'm known as the cool mom. [laughs] CASEY: Ah. Great. [laughs] Yeah. If I could snap my fingers and change a behavior of mine, that would be one. I would consider everyone's pronouns unknown until they tell me and it also varies by context. I don't even want to trust secondhand. Like if Mandy, you said he for Mannah before I met him, I wouldn't assume that's his pronouns. If maybe you are assuming, or maybe you heard it from someone and they were assuming, or maybe based on context, it's different. I want to hear it from the person, ideally. MANDY: Yes. CASEY: I also don't necessarily want to go around asking for pronouns actively all the time. I'd rather us offer them upfront, or have them in our usernames, or something so it's less verbiage in the air about it. I like it to be normalized. We don't have to think about it. That's a dream state. But for now, I'd rather ask people directly than assume anything. But it's a hard habit because I've been trained from school and everything, since a young age, to assume someone's gender and not to use they at first. That's what we've been trained and I love this trend of untraining that. Ambiguous they is accepted and we should start with that. MANDY: I love seeing people proactively put pronouns in their Zoom profiles, or their Zoom names and at conferences, I love the conferences having badges, or stickers. CASEY: Yeah. MANDY: I love that. CASEY: It's helpful. MANNAH: I want to change directions slightly and go back to something you said about the spectrum and how we move people – I don't remember the exact words you used, the two polar opposites. CASEY: Yeah. MANNAH: But how to move people towards a more inclusive mindset, let's say and wherever you are on that spectrum, you might not know how to move forward and the way to kind of deal with that, you might have questions. I just want to hear from you how you would like to be approached with questions around how do you feel about pronouns, or whatever it might be relating to your culture, or your, I guess, I'm going to say sexual identity. CASEY: Yeah. MANNAH: People are unsure how can they approach you with questions in a way that's respectful and a way that will allow them to learn more about you? CASEY: Good question. I feel like you're reading my mind a bit here. I want to start with another framework that you might have heard of. It's the circles of grief Ring Theory. Like if someone just lost their parent, then you need to pour support into that person who's closest to them and if you're outside like a more distant family member, or a friend, pour support in and then the grief gets stumped out. That's the framework, generally. So there's a lot of rings. People who are closer to it are affected more directly and people who are outside are affected more indirectly. That applies to asking people personal things, too. So I'm directly affected by being queer and I've been discriminated against and people have said bad things to me before. To ask me about it and to bring up those feelings could harm me in some way so you can't just assume everybody's comfortable talking about their experience. Like, “Tell me about how you feel about your dead mother.” It wouldn't be sensitive either because they're experiencing the pain directly, but sometimes people do want to talk about that and they're comfortable, they processed it, and they want to help spread the word. So I'm one of those people; you can ask me anything. Even if you don't know me, you can DM me on Twitter. Anyone listening, ask me a question about queer things. I'll point you to a resource, or answer it myself. I'm offering because I'm comfortable at this point. But a lot of people aren't and, in that case, you could ask if someone's comfortable, that's not a bad idea, or you could ask people who are in further circles out. Like you don't need to ask a queer person about queer experiences if you can read about it in an article online, or watch a documentary, or talk to friends who have other queer friends and they know some things about it. It's not as good as secondhand experience hearing from someone with firsthand experience, but you're causing less harm by making the ideas come up again. So you have a range of ways you can find out more about what it's like to be queer and I encourage you to think about all the different ways you can learn about a thing. You don't have to depend on the person who has [chuckles] this negative experience to do it. Another way you can learn more is by doing workshops, like the ones that I facilitate. So I was thrilled to have a good audience at Women Who Code Philly, actively asking question and learning things, and that's a space where you're supposed to ask questions and learn. I've heard of some people have peers they can talk to like peer support; people you can go to, to ask questions like that. Like my cousin asks me questions sometimes about her kids and that's like peers. Some companies actually have support groups like a weekly, or monthly meeting for people in the company to ask these questions that they have [laughs] and they don't know where to ask them and they can all learn from it. I've seen in some Slacks, there's a Diversity 101 channel in one of the Slacks I'm in people can ask questions like when would you, or would you not use this word? That's a space dedicated to asking questions like that and if someone like me wants to go in and contribute, I can answer questions there, but I don't have to. I know I'm welcome to, and I know I'm not pressured to, and that's a great middle ground and that's a lot of options. You've got to figure out what works for you, who you have around, who you can offer the support to, and who you can ask for the support from. Both directions. MANDY: It's great to have someone like you offering to do that and take on because it is of emotional labor and sometimes when people are curious, I know for me as being bisexual, some people are just like trying to – they're asking out of curiosity, but it's more like, “Give me the dirty details,” or something like that. CASEY: Yeah. MANDY: Sometimes it's like, “We just want to know because I don't – so I want to know what it's like for you,” and I'm like, “I'm not going to share just because –” right now, I am in a monogamous heterosexual relationship. Normally, if I was in a single state, a lot of people just try to ask questions that sometimes can be, I find it more inappropriate and they want to know because they're interested in the salacious details, or something like that. CASEY: Right. MANDY: That rubs me the wrong way and I can usually tell when somebody is asking, because they're genuine, or not. CASEY: There's a big difference between asking to get to know you as a person in the context you're in with the background you have versus asking for salacious gossip. [laughs] MANDY: Yeah. CASEY: And the one is much more kind than the other. It sounds like you've done a good job setting boundaries in these situations saying, “That's not appropriate. I'm not answering that. Sorry about it,” or something like that. MANNAH: Not sorry. CASEY: Not sorry. MANDY: Well, in the same token, it's something that bothers me, too because I feel like a lot of times, I just don't even tell people that I'm bisexual. CASEY: Yeah. MANDY: Because it's easier to not answer the questions because once you open that can of worms, then everybody comes at you and wants to know this and wants to know details. “Have you ever done this?” Or, “Have you ever done that?” It rubs me the wrong way again. CASEY: Right. MANDY: So sometimes I feel almost resentful. I feel resentful that I can't be my full self because it causes people to just ask and the whole conversation, or the whole time I spend with them is focused on this one thing and it's like for me, it's just not a big deal. CASEY: Right, right, right. Like on my Twitter profile—I like to use this as an example—I list out like 10, 15 things about myself on my Twitter profile and there is one little rainbow flag emoji in there at the end and I'd rather you talk about any of the other things probably. I'm willing to share that I'm queer and rainbow I affiliate with, but so much more to me, [chuckles] I'd rather you learn about me before that. MANDY: Yeah. CASEY: But it's the newest, novelist thing to those people who don't otherwise get exposed to it. They fixate on it sometimes and that, they might not realize, can be harmful. It can hurt people like you. It does hurt people. [chuckles] MANDY: It absolutely does. It makes me uncomfortable. So it's not an aspect that I talk about much, especially living in rural/suburban Pennsylvania. It's something that I just kind of, aside from my internet friends and tech community, that a lot of people still don't know about me. CASEY: Right. I can imagine not wanting to share. I used to not share my sexuality either in a lot of contexts and still when I go somewhere like the south, if I go to a place that has more bigotry around, I'm not holding my partner's hand there. I might get attacked even, that happens still in certain environments, they don't get it. Okay, I want to acknowledge that people asking these questions might have good intentions and they're making a mistake and I want to explain what I think the mistake is. MANDY: Yes. CASEY: People want to be treated as individuals, but you can go too far in that extreme and treat someone like an individual and ignore their background. Like it doesn't matter that you've been queer. It doesn't matter that you're Black. It doesn't matter, I'm just going to treat you like an individual. Ignoring all this background is its own kind of overgeneralization in a way is ignoring that background and context. And then there's another way you can do an exaggeration, which is only focusing on that background in context and ignoring the person's individual traits and their individual experiences. The best thing to do is to treat them like an individual who has this context and background putting them both together. So maybe these people are trying to understand you better by understanding this context. Maybe—I'm being very generous— [chuckles] some of these people are probably not this, but some people honestly want to know more about your context to understand you and that's thoughtful. They're just going about it in a way that's not the most helpful, or kind to you and I appreciate those people. But then there are other people who want to use the background and context to overgeneralize and just treat you as a member of this group, a token member, and that is a problem, too. So it's like two ingredients and if you put them together, that's the best and a lot of people focus on one, or the other too much. The individual experience versus the group background context experience. MANNAH: Yeah. That was really well put. I do think that as I said earlier, I'm someone who is very willing to have these. However, the downside of that is that becomes who you're and instead of the entire human being and the other – to take it a step further, some people are uncomfortable with that identity, or uncomfortable thinking about those things. Think about the discrimination that you might face and rather than confront it, or address it, they would rather just not deal with you, or limit their interact. CASEY: Right, yeah. MANNAH: So this is not a question for Casey, this is just something to the group. How can we navigate that and wanting to being willing to share of ourselves, but recognizing that there is some social backlash that can come from that? CASEY: I think my number one thing I want allies to understand is they can support each other in being allies and it can take work to be comfortable talking to each other, to support each other. You don't have to just depend on the queer people to learn queer about things. If one of you learns and one ally learns, they can teach another ally the concept, or the idea, or share how to navigate it. I did a Twitter poll for this, actually. Not a huge sample size, but still. A lot of people only have 1 to 3 people they can talk to about things like this. That's very few and they might not cover all the different situations. So that's my number one thing to help people navigate it is get so support, find support, be support for other people and you'll get support in return for that, too. That's your homework. Everyone, write this down. Find 10 people you can talk to about inclusivity related topics, 10 people. MANDY: And Google exists for a reason. So always, when things come up, I like to Google and I've gotten push back about that several times. “Well, I don't want to put that stuff into my search engine because then all of a sudden, I start getting gay targeted ads,” or something. CASEY: That's true. That's a real concern. [overtalk] MANDY: And I'm, “It's not –” Well, hello, incognito mode. CASEY: Right. MANDY: Thank you, everyone. That's a thing. Use it. [laughs] CASEY: Yeah, and you don't have to feel icky using incognito mode. You can use it because you don't want to ads tracking you. MANDY: Exactly. CASEY: Some people use it for everything. They never use the regular browser mode because they don't want the tracking. It's work to learn things about other people and so, that's why I like to focus on the support part. If you get support from people, maybe you can both be looking up stuff and sharing articles with each other, and that's really multiplying the effects here. MANDY: Absolutely. MANNAH: So we started homework for allies. I think now it might be a good time to talk about what makes good ally. We talked a little bit about how it can feel voyeuristic. Mandy, you talked about how people asking questions can sometimes feel a little picky and we talked about some better ways to asking questions. But are there any other ways that either both, all of us would like to see people be more effective ally? CASEY: Yeah. I want to call back to an earlier point. I want to see more people switch from being reactive to being proactive. To being the first voice. Me included, honestly. Whenever you can get away with it and whatever helps you be proactive, do those things, which might be the support thing I keep talking about. Getting support to be more proactive, becoming accountable to people. If you're already an ally, I'm assuming you're being reactively supportive some of the times. A lot of the people I talk to, who consider themselves allies, would agree, but taking that next step. And there's a different spectrum for each issue, like pronouns is one. Pronouns being shared in meetings. How proactive, or reactive are you for that? I don't even know. There are thousands of things [chuckles] that you can do to become more proactive. MANDY: I would like to say for allies, teaching our children love and not hate. I see a lot of nastiness coming from children and that comes from parents. It's really sad to see sometimes the amount of people who don't – they just spew hate and they're like, “I'm not referring to this person as a pronoun.” Like, “They/them, no. They're a this, or they're –” It saddens me to no end when you are around children to model nasty behavior and I think if you are not the person doing that yourself and you're around it, and you see somebody say something and say, “That's not okay, don't. Do you understand how you sound? Do you understand what you're saying? Do you understand that you're having an effect on everyone around you by giving your nasty opinions and that kind of thing?” CASEY: Yeah. I've got a one word, one liner thing that I like to pull out and I'm proud every time I say it. “Rude,” and I can walk away. It can happen in the grocery store. Someone can say something. It doesn't matter the nuance, what's going on and how I might explain it to them in fuller language. I can at least pull that one word out, rude, and walk away and they are called out for it. I'm proud whenever I can call someone out. MANDY: Yeah. CASEY: I don't always do it, though. The stakes can seem high and it takes practice. So this is homework, too. If you see someone and saying something hurtful to another person, it's your responsibility if you dare claim this to defend the other person and call the person rude, or however you would say the same thing. Say something. MANDY: Yeah, say something. MANNAH: I think that that can be really hard for allies. CASEY: Yeah. MANNAH: And if I had one piece of advice for allies, it would be that sometimes allyship is uncomfortable and that is something that you have to navigate. You can't pick and choose when you're going to… Well, that's not true. There's some discretion, but recognize that being a part-time ally, or a tourist in that space has an effect on people and not confronting your own insecurities, or your own feelings limits your effectiveness in allyship. CASEY: Yeah. It can be a deep question to ask yourself what made me hesitate that one time and what can I do to not hesitate helping next time? You can journal about it. You can talk to friends about it. You can think about it. Doing something more than thinking is definitely more helpful, though. Thinking alone is not the most powerful tool you have to change your own behavior. Yeah, it is uncomfortable. One thing that helps me speak up is instead of focusing on my discomfort, which is natural and I do it, for sure, I try to focus on the discomfort of the other person, or the person directly affected by this and I really want to help that person feel seen, protected, heard, defended. If you think about how they're feeling even more, that's very motivating for me and honestly, it helps in some ways that I am a queer man, that I have been discriminated against and people have been hateful toward me that I can relate when other people get similar experiences. If you haven't had experiences like that, it might be hard to rally up the empathy for it. But I'm sure you have something like that in your background, or if not, you know people who've been affected and that can be fuel for you, too. People you care about telling you stories like this and it is uncomfortable. [chuckles] Getting comfortable with that discomfort is critical here. MANNAH: One of the things that is very uncomfortable is, I think that as we go through life, we all grow is being reflective on the times when maybe we're not inclusive, or maybe were insensitive. At least being able to those situations, I feel like is a great first step. CASEY: Mm hm. MANNAH: Saying, “Hey, I said this about this group of people,” or “I use this word.” Maybe you didn't fully know what it meant and recognized the impact at the time, but being able to go back and be reflective about your behavior, I feel like is a very important skill to help become a more well-rounded individual. CASEY: Yeah. Agreed. And it's a practice. You have to do it. The more you do it, the easier it gets to process these and learn from them. It's a habit also, so any of the books that talk about learning habits, you can apply to this kind of problem, too. Like a weekly calendar event, or talking to a friend once a month and this is a topic that comes up. I don't know, there are a ton of ways you can try to make this habit, grow and stick for yourself, and it varies by person what's effective. But if you don't put it into your schedule, if you don't make room and space for it, it's really easy to skip doing it, too. MANDY: Yeah. It's amazing to look back. Even myself, I'm not the same person. I was 10, 15 years ago. I'm sure. Even as being a bisexual person that back in high school, I called something gay at one point just referring to, “Oh, that's gay.” CASEY: Yeah. MANDY: I'm sure I – [overtalk] CASEY: I'm sure I did it, too. MANDY: I'm sure I've said that. Knowing that I'm not that person anymore, recognizing that, and looking back at how much I've grown really helps me to come to terms with the fact that I wasn't always woke on this subject. We do a lot of growing over our lives. I'm in my 30s now and I've done so much growing and to look back on the person who I used to be versus the person I am now, I get very proud of how far I've come. Even though it can suck to look back at maybe a specific instance that you always remember and you're like, “Oh my God, that's so cringy. I can't believe I did that.” Having those moments to be like, “Well, you know what, that might have happened in 2003, but this is 2022 and look how far you've come.” CASEY: Love it! Yeah, growth. MANDY: Like that just makes me feel so good. CASEY: Yeah. We need the growth mindset. MANDY: And having discussions like this is what has gotten me to this place. Entering tech. I entered tech 12 years ago. I know this because my daughter's 12 and I always like, I'm like, “Okay so when my daughter was born, I got into tech. That's when I started actually becoming a decent person.” [laughs] So I measure a lot of my timeline by my daughter's age and it's just amazing to go back and see how much you've grown. Honestly, you should – another piece of homework, if you can just sit back and think about who you were before and who you are now and reflect on that a bit. MANNAH: We talked about normalizing pronouns, but I think it's also important to normalize sharing that story that you just told. I know I had a similar story where wherever I am on the wokeness scale, I was definitely much less so a couple years ago. I just did not have the same – I did not have enough experiences. I did not think about things in the same way. I did not challenge myself to be empathetic as much as I do now. It is a process and we're all somewhere on that journey. Who you are, like you said, 10 years ago is not necessarily who you are now. If it is, I don't know. I hope I'm not the same person in 10 years. I hope I'm always growing. So to make sure to share with others that it is a process and you don't wake up one day being woke. It is something that takes work and a skill that is developed. MANDY: Oh, you definitely have to do the work. Every year, I do a program. It's an actually a wonderful program. It's called Stratejoy. I can put the link in the show notes. But every year there's this woman who you sit down, you take stock of the last year and she asks a lot of deep questions. You journal them, you write them down, and then you think about what do I want to see? What can I improve? What do I want to do? How can I do so? And then we have quarterly calls throughout the year and really sit down, write it down, talk about it, and reflect on it because it is work. A lot of people make fun of people who read self-help books and I love fiction books just as much as the next person, I want to get away and read before bed at the end of the night, too. But it's really important for me to read books that make me feel uncomfortable, or make me learn, or make me think. I read a lot of books on race. So You Want to Talk About Race was one I read and it had a profound effect on me to read that book and take stock of myself and my own actions. It can be hard sometimes and it can cause anxiety. But I think in order to grow as a person, that's where you need to be vulnerable and you need to say, “No, I'm not perfect. I've done this thing wrong in the past and I don't know this, so I'm going to do what I can to educate myself.” CASEY: Another thing I hear a lot is some people say, “You should not celebrate any progress you make. You should always just feel bad and work harder forever.” Do you ever hear that kind of sentiment? Not in those words. MANDY: Yeah. CASEY: But if you ever say, “I learned a thing and I'm proud of it, here's what I learned,” there's someone on the internet who's going to tell you, “You are terrible and wrong and should do even better. Forget any progress you've made. You're not perfect yet,” and that is so frustrating to me. So here's something I'd like to see from more woke allies is less language policing, more celebrating of people who make progress. A lot of it's invisible, like we talked about on the spectrum. I do like when people get called out for making mistakes, like there's an opportunity for learning and growth, but you don't have to shame people in public, make them feel really bad about it, and embarrassed in front of the whole company. You could maybe do it privately and send a message to the companies talking about the policy in general like, “Don't use this word, don't do this thing.” You can do it very tactfully and you can be very effective. You don't have to just be PC police to the extreme. But if you are PC police to the extreme, I'm glad you're doing something. That's good. But you can be more effective. Please think about how you can be really effective, that's my request for all my woke friends. It can go overboard. It can definitely go overboard, being a language police. MANDY: Yeah, and it can make people who are trying to quit. CASEY: Right. That's a huge risk. I want to give all this a caveat, though, because if – here's an example from a friend's company. There was a presentation and there ended up being a slide with Blackface on it, which if you don't know is a terrible, awful thing that makes Black people feel really bad and it makes the person showing it seem like they are malicious, or oblivious and it shouldn't happen. And then we were wondering like, “What should someone have done in that situation?” Call it out, for sure and move on publicly is a good call there to protect any Black people in the room feel like they're being protected and heard, but not necessarily shaming the person and giving them a 5-minute lecture during that. You can be effective at getting the person not to do it again in private later calling it out to defend the people in the room. Protecting is goal number one for me, but what can you do to change the company culture effectively is a piece that I see a lot of people skipping. If you are just 5 minutes yelling at a person that might make them shut down, you're not being your most effective. So it's a hard walk to balance protecting people, calling people out, and changing the culture. But it's possible and it's work. I guess, it's really two things you're balancing, protecting the person, making them feel part of the group included and cared for versus changing the culture of the group and of the individual. We want both outcomes, ideally. But if I had to pick one, I'm going to pick protecting the person first and then the larger change can happen afterwards. MANDY: Yeah. And if you do mess up, which I've done. I've accidentally misgendered somebody and I felt terrible. All night, I kept apologizing to this person and finally, this person took me aside and said, “You're making it worse by keeping apologizing. Let it go.” CASEY: Yeah. MANDY: So also, not rehashing and banging your head against the wall multiple, multiple times. Apologize and move on. MANNAH: Yeah. If your apology is sincere, then you shouldn't need to repeat it multiple times. Make sure that the person you're apologizing to hears it and make whatever amend need be made. But I do think if you over apologizing, it's more for you so you feel better than it is more for the person that you potentially offended. CASEY: Right and I don't expect you to know that without having thought about it like you are right now. Take this moment and think about it deeper. This is intriguing to you. It is natural to want to apologize forever, but it is also harmful and you can do better than that. I offer a lot of workshops in this vein. Like there's one called Bystander to Upstander. There's another LGBTQIA inclusion where I go through a whole bunch of charts and graphs. There's one called preventing and recovering from microaggressions where you can practice making a mistake and recovering from it in a group. The practice is the key here, like really making a mistake and recovering from it, getting that the muscles, the reactions, the things you say to people, it does take work to get that to be a practice. Even if you already agree you want to, it's hard to put it into practice a lot of the time. I give workshops, including these, for community groups a couple times a month and if you want to get updates on that, that's at happyandeffective.com/updates. Also, I do these for companies so if you think your company would benefit from having these kinds of discussions, feel free to reach out to Happy and Effective, too. That's my company. MANNAH: Well, with that, I think it'd be a great time to move to reflections. What do y'all think? I think this whole episode has been one big reflection to be quite honest, but does anybody want to share anything in particular that has stood out to them throughout the hour we've just spent together? MANNAH: I'm happy to kick it off. I think that we've made some really good suggestions around how people can create more through their own actions. Create more inclusive environments. I do want to say that these are not things that are kind of stone. There are a lot of ways. Everybody's an individual, every situation is different, and I don't want to be prescriptive in saying you have to do certain things. I do want to say that when I'm speaking, this is my experience and these are things that I think can help. So please don't take what I say to be gospel. They are suggestions and if you disagree with them, then I'm happy to have that conversation. But recognize that the people speaking on this panel don't necessarily have the answers, but they are people who are willing to start this conversation. CASEY: The thing I want people to take away is—and you can repeat after me, everyone—I will make mistakes. Good, good. I heard it. I will find more support. Awesome. You're great. Okay. You're on the right path for this now. Mandy, over to you. MANDY: This is not something that you do once and you're done. This kind of reflection and this kind of work is always going to be a work in progress until the day you're no longer here. It's not something you can read a book and be like, “Okay, I did that. I'm good now. I know things.” It's constantly changing and evolving and you need to do the work. You need to have empathy for others and realize that everybody is constantly changing and just because somebody isn't one ting one day, they might be something the other day. I tell my daughter all the time because she's very unsure about who is she and I'm like, “You don't have to know right now. Just because you think you're this, or you're this right now, in 2 years, you might feel differently and you might be this.” So people are always evolving, always changing, and that doesn't just go for how you present either your gender identity, or sexual identity but it also just goes for who you are. I always try to grow as a person and the work is never done. CASEY: No one has all the answers, no one knows everything, and anyone who says they do is lying because it's going to change. It will change. MANDY: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Mannah and Casey for having this conversation today. I know it's uncomfortable, I know it's a hard thing to talk about, and I'm so grateful that you both showed up to have it. If we want to continue these conversations, I invite anybody who's listening to reach out to us. If you'd like to come on the show to talk about it, reach out to us. We have a Slack channel that we can have private conversations in. You can find that at Patreon.com/greaterthancode and donate as little as a dollar to get in. We do that so we keep the trolls out and if you cannot afford a dollar, please DM any one of us and we will get you in there for free. So with that, thank you again for listening and we will see you all next week.

The @UclaBTeam is now part of the What's Bruin Network! Subscribe to one feed to get three great shows!What's Bruin Symposium - A conversation about all things Bruin over drinks with Bruin Report Online's @mikeregaladoLA, @wbjake68, Jamaal (@champspapa1015) and BillThe B Team - insightful Bruin talk with @MichaelMHanna and Nathan (@Sideoutpar)West Coast Bias - LA Sports (mostly Lakers, Dodgers and NFL) with Jamaal and JakeSupport WBS at Patreon.com/WhatsBruinShow for just $2/month and get exclusive content, access to our SLACK channel and the new WBS Sticker. Please rate and review us on whatever platform you listen on. Call the WBS Hotline at 805-399-4WBS (Suck it Reign of Troy)

Erik & Anthony are joined by Bruce Nolan to dive into Josh Allen's film vs. the Kansas City Chiefs, his rise to stardom, and some breaking news on what happened at the end of the Bills Chiefs game. #NFL #Billsmafia Fantasy Sponsor - Underdog Fantasy Get $10 free when you deposit $10 using Promo Code: COVER1 Link: https://play.underdogfantasy.com/p-co... Great merch available through Cover 1 Affiliate partner Playbook Products below: https://bit.ly/2ETuWjS Cover 1 would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think! — Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT -Access to detailed Premium Content. -Access to our video library. -Access to our private Slack channel. -Sneak peek at upcoming content. -Exclusive group film room sessions. & much more. SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-conten... Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below. — DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP! ► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/de... ��� iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id15325... — ► Subscribe to our YouTube channel ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play — Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1. — — Follow Us Here Twitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/ Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/co... The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

Two outstanding conversations trying to make sense of what is happening around work. Firstly I chat to Brian Elliott who leads the Future Forum, a group led by Slack. they released a new report surveying workers in the UK, US and other major countries. Here are the topline findings - but the conversation goes way beyond this.UK knowledge workers are most likely to say they want flexibility in where they work (81%)60% of UK knowledge workers are more open to changing jobs in the next year69% UK knowledge workers say they want to work hybrid - 58% are currently doing soBrian also gives a shout out to Donut - a tool to build serendipity.Then I speak to one of the most respected thought leaders in making sense of the future of work, Julia Hobsbawm is the sought after intelligent voice when it comes to future of work discussions. She chairs the Demos 'Workshift Commission. Her new book, The Nowhere Office is a confident reflection about how we can tackle the future - it's out for pre-order now. We talk about office politics, establishing what Leesman call our 'workplace why' - and how we can make hybrid work. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Ding. Boing. Drop. Messaging platforms like Slack and Microsoft Teams are now solidified as the go-to business apps and tools in the workplace. But based on the constant interruptions and distraction they cause, should they be?In this episode, I cover five tips you didn't even know you needed to make Slack and other messaging tools more productive. Instead of deep technical specifics, these are strategic shifts that can change the way you and your colleagues use messaging tools for the better. You'll move from the world of real-time distraction to an environment that supports more deep, creative work.Watch the video version of this episode.Other Episodes You're Using the WRONG Doc Editor Video Clips to Reduce Meetings Now Slack Joins Salesforce Follow newsletter @kenyarmosh /in/kenyarmosh kenyarmosh.com

Today's guest, Chad Keller, is a real estate investor and Facebook marketing expert. Chad has extensive experience doing Facebook marketing for both large and small companies, but after investing some of his agency profits into rental properties, he and his business partner realized that true wealth comes from real estate investing. Now, in addition to investing in real estate, Chad uses his Facebook ads experience to help other investors find quality leads.  Key Points From This Episode: How to target motivated seller using facebook ads What is the facebook special ad category for real estate The ad, copy and targeting mix for high performing ads How to track and measure conversions Creative financing and facebook ads Links Mentioned in Today's Episode: https://motivated-leads.com/ (Chad Website) Recommended Book: How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie http://beforethemillions.com/book (Listen to this book for free with Audible!) Lifestyle Design App: https://slack.com/ (Slack)

SUBSCRIBE TO SALES SECRETS PODCASTITUNES ► https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/s...​SPOTIFY ► https://open.spotify.com/show/1BKYsQo...​YOUTUBE ► https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVUh...​THIS EPISODE IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY SEAMLESS.AI - THE WORLD'S BEST SALES LEADSWEBSITE ► https://www.seamless.ai/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/seamlessai/JOIN FOR FREE TODAY ► https://login.seamless.ai/invite/podcastSHOW DESCRIPTIONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson, entrepreneur and founder of Seamless.AI. Twice a week, Brandon interviews the world's top sales experts like Jill Konrath, Aaron Ross, John Barrows, Trish Bertuzzi, Mark Hunter, Anthony Iannarino and many more -- to uncover actionable strategies, playbooks, tips and insights you can use to generate more revenue and close more business. If you want to learn the most powerful sales secrets from the top sales experts in the world, Sales Secrets From The Top 1% is the place to find them.SALES SECRET FROM THE TOP 1%WEBSITE ► https://www.secretsalesbook.com/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/sales-secret-book/ABOUT BRANDONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson (over $100M in sales deals), multi-million dollar sales tech entrepreneur, motivational sales speaker, international sales DJ (DJ NoQ5) and sales author who is obsessed with helping you maximize your sales success.Mr. Bornancin is currently the CEO & Founder at Seamless.ai delivering the world's best sales leads. Over 10,000+ companies use Seamless.ai to generate millions in sales at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Slack, Dell, Oracle & many others.Mr. Bornancin is also the author of "Sales Secrets From The Top 1%" where the world's best sales experts share their secrets to sales success and author of “The Ultimate Guide To Overcoming Sales Objections.”FOLLOW BRANDONLINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonbornancin/INSTAGRAM ► https://www.instagram.com/brandonbornancinofficial/FACEBOOK ► https://www.facebook.com/SeamlessAITWITTER ► https://twitter.com/BBornancin

Steph talks about winter storms and thoughts on name pronunciation features. Chris talks about writing a query to add a new display of data in an admin panel and making a guest appearance on the Svelte Radio Podcast. Finally, Chris decided that his productivity to-do list system was failing him. So he's on the search now for something new. He asks Steph what she uses and if she's happy with it. How do you, dear Listener, keep track of all your stuff in the world? This episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM (https://scoutapm.com/bikeshed). Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy. Upcase advanced Active Record (https://thoughtbot.com/upcase/advanced-activerecord-querying) Svelte Radio (https://www.svelteradio.com/episodes/chris-toomey-talks-svelte-rails-and-banking) Things (https://culturedcode.com/things/) Todoist (https://todoist.com/) MeetingBar (https://meetingbar.onrender.com/) SavvyCal (https://savvycal.com/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris. We have Winter Storm Izzy headed our way. It's arriving in South Carolina early tomorrow morning. So that's kind of exciting just because it's South Carolina. We rarely see snow. In fact, I looked it up because I was curious because I've seen it every now and then. But I looked up the greatest cumulative snowfall in 1 season, and it was 19 inches in the winter of 1971. I was trying to add an old-timey voice there. I don't know if I was successful. CHRIS: Does 1971 deserve a full old-timey voice? STEPH: Apparently. CHRIS: I feel like people from 1971 would be like, "We were just people in the 70s." Like, what do you... STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Wait. Nineteen inches, is that what you said? STEPH: 19 inches. That was total for the season. CHRIS: Yeah, we can bang that out in an afternoon up here in the North. So yeah, okay. You were here for the terrible, terrible winter, right? STEPH: Oh, Snowmageddon? Yes. CHRIS: Yeah, that was something, oof. STEPH: I don't remember how many inches. Was it like 100 inches in a month or something wild like that? I've forgotten the facts. CHRIS: I, too forget the facts. I remember the anecdotal piece of data, the anecdata as it were where we shoveled our driveway, and then another storm came, we shoveled our driveway. And then finally, I was living in an apartment, and it was time to shovel the driveway again. But the pile of snow on the lawn was too big. So we had to shovel the pile of snow further up the lawn to make room for the snow that we were shoveling out of the driveway. But I also remember that being a really nice bonding moment, and I met more of the people living in the...it was a house that had been converted into six apartments. So I actually met some of the people from the house for the first time. And then we hung out a little bit more in the day. So I actually have weirdly fond memories of that time. But to be clear, that was too much snow. I will officially go on record saying too much snow. No, thank you again. STEPH: It was a lot of snow. I think it broke Boston for a while. I remember I don't think I went to...I worked remotely for two weeks because they were just like, "Yeah, don't even try to come into the office. Don't worry about it." So it felt like my first dabbling into understanding quarantine [laughs] except at least with less complicated reasons, just with lots of snow. We also went snowboarding in Charlestown, where we were living. And that was fun because there are some really great hills, and there was so much snow that that was delightful. But I'm not expecting Snowmageddon in South Carolina, although people may act like it and rush out and get their milk and bread. But hopefully, we'll get a couple of inches because that'll be lovely. I don't know that Utah has ever seen the snow. So this will be fun. CHRIS: Oh, that'll definitely be fun. I imagine you've got like even if you do get some amount of accumulation, a day later the sun will just be like, "I'm back. I got this," and clear it up, and you won't have any lingering. The year of Snowmageddon, if I remember correctly, the final pile of snow left in July, the shared one that the city had collected. So you'll probably do better than that turnaround time. [laughs] STEPH: Yeah, it's perfect. It's very ephemeral. It snows, it's beautiful. It's there for a couple of hours, and then poof, it's gone. And then you're back to probably 70-degree weather typically what's here, [laughs] which I have no complaints. There's a reason that I like living here. But in some other news, I have something that I'm really excited about that I want to share. So there's something that you and I work really hard to do correctly, and it's pronouncing someone's name. So whenever there is either a guest on the show, or we are referencing someone, we will often pause, and then we will look for videos. We'll look for an audio clip, something where that person says their name. And then we will do our best to then say it correctly. Although I probably put a Southern twang on a lot of people's names, so sorry about that. But that's really important to say someone's name correctly. And one of thoughtbot's projects is called Hub, which is something that we use internally for all of our project staffing and then also for profiles and team information; there's a new feature that Matheus Richard, another thoughtboter, implemented that I am just so excited about. And now that I have it, I just think I don't know how I lived without this. And I want it everywhere. So Matheus has added the feature where you can upload an audio file with your name pronunciation. So you can go to someone's profile, and you can click on the little audio button and hear them pronounce their name. And then a number of people have taken it a bit further where they will provide, say, the American or English pronunciation of their name. And then they will provide their specific pronunciation; maybe it's Greek, maybe it's Spanish, and it's just phenomenal. And I love it so much. And I can't wait for just more platforms to have something like this. So really big shout out to Matheus Richard for that phenomenal feature. CHRIS: Oh, that is awesome. Yeah, we definitely do pause pretty regularly to go scan through YouTube or try and find an example. And often, people just start into talks, or they'll only say their first name. We're like, oh, okay, keep searching, keep searching. We'll find it. And apologies to anyone whose name we still got wrong regardless of our efforts. But it's making this a paramount idea similar to people putting their pronouns in their name. Like, okay, this is a thing that we should get into the habit of because the easier we make this, the more common that we make this. And names absolutely matter, and getting the pronunciation right really matters. And especially if it can be an easier thing, that's really wonderful. I hope Twitter and other platforms just adopt this; just take this entirely and make it easy because it should be. STEPH: That's what I was thinking; if Twitter had this, and then I was thinking if Slack had this, that would be a wonderful place to be able to just see someone's profile because we can see lots of other helpful context about them. So yeah, it's wonderful. I want to hear more people how they pronounce their names. Because I'll always ask somebody, but it would just be really nice to then be able to revisit or check-in before you talk to that person, and then you can just say their name. That would be delightful. CHRIS: I do feel like creating it for my name would be interesting. I actually had someone this week say my name and then say, "Oh, is that how you pronounce it?" And I stopped for a minute, and I was like, "Yes. I'm really intrigued what other options you were considering, though. I would like to spend a minute and just...because I always thought there was really only the one approach, but I would love to know. Let's just explore the space here," but yes. STEPH: [laughs] You ask them, "What else you got? What other variations can I hear?" CHRIS: [laughs] I would like three variations on my desk by tomorrow so that I can understand what I'm missing out on, frankly. There's a theme or an idea that I've seen bouncing around on Twitter now of people saying, "Yeah, I really just want to apply, get hired, work for one day, make this one change to a platform, and immediately put in my resignation." And I could see this like, "All right, I'm just going to go. I'm going to get hired by Twitter. This is it. This is all I'm doing," which really trivializes the amount of effort that would go into it for a platform like Twitter. I can't even imagine what engineering looks like in Twitter and how all the pieces come together. I'm imagining some amount of microservices there, and that's just my guess. But yeah, that idea of just like, this is my drive-by feature. I show up; I work for a week, I quit. And there we go; now we have it. STEPH: Well, we are consultants. Maybe we'll get hired for all these different companies, and that will be our drive-by feature. We'll add it to their boards and be like, "Don't you want this? Don't you need this?" And then they'll say, "Yes." [chuckles] CHRIS: I am intrigued because I can't imagine this hasn't come up in conversations at Twitter. And so, what are the trade-off considerations that they're making, or what are the reasons not to do this? I don't have any good answers there. I'm just asking the question because, for an organization their size, someone must have had this idea. Yeah, I wonder. STEPH: Yeah, there's; also, I'm sure malicious things that then you have to consider as to then how people...because, at the end of the day, it's just an audio file. So it could be anything that you want it to be. So it starts to get complicated when you think about ways that people could abuse a feature. On that peppy note, what's going on in your world? CHRIS: I had a fun bit of coding that I got to do recently, which, more and more, my days don't involve as much coding. And so when I have a little bit of time, especially for a nice, self-contained little piece of code that I get to write, that's enjoyable. And so I was writing a query. I wanted to add a new display of data in our admin panel. And I was trying to write a query, and I got to build a nice query object in Ruby, which I always enjoy. That's not a real thing, just in case anyone's hearing that and thinking like, wait, what's a query object? Just a class that takes in a relation and returns relation but encapsulates more complex query logic. It's one of my favorite types of ways to extract logic from ActiveRecord models, that sort of thing. So I was building this query object, and specifically, what I wanted to do here is I'm going to simplify down the data model. And I'm going to say that we have users and reservations in the system. This may sound familiar to you, Steph, as your go-to example [laughs] from the past. We have users, and we have reservations in the system. So a user has many reservations. And reservations can be they have a timestamp or maybe an enum column. But basically, they have the idea of potentially being upcoming, so in the future. And so what I wanted to do was I wanted to find all users in the system who have less than two upcoming reservations. Now, the critical detail here is that zero is a number less than two. So I wanted to know any users that have no upcoming reservations or one upcoming reservation. Those were the two like, technically, that's it. But say it was even less than three, that's fine as well. But I need to account for zero. And so I rolled up my sleeves, started writing the query, and ActiveRecord has some really nice features for this where I can merge different scopes that are on the reservation.upcoming is a scope that I have on that model that determines if a reservation is upcoming because maybe there's more complex logic there. So that's encapsulated over there. But what I tried initially was users.leftjoinsreservations .groupbyusers.id havingcountofreservations. So that was what I got to. And thankfully, I wrote a bunch of tests for this, which is one of the wonderful things about extracting the query object. It was very easy to isolate this thing: write a bunch of tests that execute it with given data. And interestingly, I found that it worked properly for users with a bunch of upcoming reservations. They were not returned by the query objects which they shouldn't, and users with one upcoming reservation. But users with zero upcoming reservations were being filtered out. And that was a surprise. STEPH: Is it because the way you were joining and looking where the reservation had to match to a user, so you weren't getting where users didn't have a reservation? CHRIS: It was related to that. So there's a subtlety to LEFT JOINS. So a JOIN is going to say like, users and reservations. But in that case, if there is a user without reservations, I know they're going to be filtered out of this query. So it's like, oh, I know what to do. LEFT JOINS, I got this. So LEFT JOINS says, "Give me all of the users and then in the query space that I'm building up here, join them to their reservations." So even a user with no reservations is now part of the recordset that is being considered for this query. But when I added the filter of reservations.upcoming, I tried to merge that in using ActiveRecord's .merge syntax on a query or on a relation, as it were. That would not work because it turns out when you're using the LEFT JOINS...and as I'm saying this, I'm going to start saying, like, here's definitively what's true. I probably still don't entirely understand this, but trying to do the WHERE clause on the outer query did not work. And I had to move that filtering logic into the LEFT JOINS. So the definition of the JOINS was now I had to actually handwrite that portion of the SQL and say, LEFT OUTER JOIN users on and then, you know, the users.id=reservations.userid and reservations. whatever the logic there for an upcoming reservation. So reservations.completed is null or reservations.date>date.current or whatever logic there. But I had to include that logic in the definition of the LEFT OUTER JOIN, which is not a thing that I think I've done before. So it was part of the definition of the JOIN rather than part of the larger query that we were operating on. STEPH: Yeah, that's interesting. I don't think I would have caught that myself. And luckily, you had the test to then point out to you. CHRIS: Yeah, definitely the tests made me feel much more confident when I eventually narrowed down and started to understand it and was able to make the change in the code. I was also quite happy with the way I was able to structure it. So, suddenly, I had to handwrite a little bit of SQL. And what was nice is many, many, many years ago, I recorded a wonderful course on Upcase with Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot, on Advanced ActiveRecord Querying. And I'm still years later digesting everything that Joe said in that course. It's really an amazing piece of content. But one of the things that I learned is Joe shows a bunch of examples throughout that course of ways that where you need to, you can drop down to raw SQL within an ActiveRecord relation. But you don't need to completely throw it out and write the entire query by hand. You can just say, in this case, all I had to handwrite was the JOINS logic for that LEFT JOINS. But the rest of it was still using normal ActiveRecord query logic. And the .having was scoped on its own, and all of those sort of things. So it was a nice balance of still staying mostly within the ActiveRecord query Builder syntax and then dropping down to a lower level where I needed it. STEPH: I love that you mentioned that video because I have seen it, and it is so good. In fact, I now want to go back and rewatch it since you've mentioned it just because I remember I always learn something every time that I do watch it. On a side note, the way that you represented and described query objects was so lovely. I know you, and I have talked about query objects before because we adore them. But I feel like you just gave a really good mini class and overview of like, this is what a query object is, and this is what it does. And this is why they're great because you can test them. CHRIS: Cool. I'm going to be honest; I have no idea what I said. But I'm glad it was good. [laughs] STEPH: It was. It was really good. If anyone has questions about query objects, that'll be a good reference. CHRIS: Well, thank you so much for the kind words there. And for the ActiveRecord querying trail, really, I was just along for the ride on that one, to be clear. I did write a bunch of notes after the fact, which I've found incredibly useful because the videos are great. But having the notes to be able to reference...past me spent a lot of time trying really hard to understand what Joe had said so that I could write it down. And I'm very glad that I invested that time and effort so that I can revisit it more easily. But yeah, that was just a fun little bit of code that I got to write and a new thing that I've learned in the world of SQL, which is one of those topics that every little investment of effort I find to be really valuable. The more comfortable I feel, the more that I can express in SQL. It's one of those investments that I'm like, yep, glad I did that. Whereas there are other things like, yeah, I learned years ago how to do X. I've completely forgotten it. It's gone from my head. I'm never going to use it again, or the world has changed. But SQL is one of those topics where I appreciate all of the investment I've put in and always find it valuable to invest a bit more in my knowledge there. STEPH: Yeah, absolutely same. Just to troll Regexs for a little bit, they're powerful, but they're the thing that I will never commit to learning. I refuse to do it. [laughs] I will always look it up when I need to. But Postgres or SQL, on the other hand, is always incredibly valuable. And I'm always happy to learn something new and invest in that area of my skills. CHRIS: Yep, SQL and Postgres are great things. But let's see. In other news, actually, I had the pleasure of joining the Svelte Radio Podcast for an episode this week. They invited me on as a guest. And we got to chat about Svelte, and then I accidentally took the conversation in the direction of inertia as I always do. And then I talked a little bit more about Sagewell, the company that I'm building, and all sorts of things in the world. But that was really fun, and I really enjoyed that. And I believe it will be live by the time this episode goes live. So we will certainly include a link to that episode in our show notes here. STEPH: That's awesome. I haven't listened to the Svelte Podcast before. So I'm excited to hear your episode and all the good things that you said on it. I'm also just less familiar with them. Who runs the Svelte Podcast, and what's the name of the show? CHRIS: The show is called Svelte Radio. It's hosted by Antony, Shawn, and Kevin, who are three Svelters from the community. Svelte is a really interesting group where the Svelte society is, as far as I can tell, a community organization that is seemingly well-supported by the core team and embraced as the natural center point of the community. And then Svelte Radio is an extension of that. And it's a wonderful podcast. Each week, they talk about various things. So there are news episodes, and then they have guests on from time to time. Recently, having Rich Harris on to talk about the future of Svelte, Rich Harris being the creator of Svelte. Interestingly, if you search for Svelte Radio, they are the second Google result because the first Google result is the tutorial docs on how to use Svelte with radio buttons. But then the second one is Svelte Radio, the podcast, [laughs], which is an interesting thing. Good on Svelte's documentation for having such strong SEO. STEPH: I was just thinking there's something delightful about that where the first hit is for documentation that's a very helpful; here's how you use this. That's kind of lovely. Well, that's really cool. I'm really looking forward to hearing more about Svelte and listening to you be on the show. CHRIS: Yeah, they actually had some very kind things to say about The Bike Shed and, frankly, you as well and our co-hosting that we do here. So that was always nice to hear. STEPH: That's very kind of them. And it never fails to amaze me how nice podcasters are. Everyone that I've met in this community that's a fellow podcaster they're just all such wonderful, nice, kind people, and I just appreciate the heck out of them. CHRIS: Yeah, podcasts are great. The internet is doing its job; that's my strong belief there. But let's see. In other news, I actually have more of a question here, sort of a question and an observation. My work has started to take a slightly different shape than it has historically. Often, I'm a developer working on a team, picking up something off the top of the Trello board or whatever we're using for project management, working on that thing, pushing it through to acceptance. But all of the work or the vast majority of the work is encapsulated in this one shared planning context. But now, enough of my work is starting to spill out in different directions. Like right now, I'm pushing on hiring. That's a task that largely lives with me that doesn't live on the shared Trello board. Certainly, the rest of the team will be involved at some point. But for now, there's that that's really mine. And there are other pieces of work that are starting to take that shape. So I recognize, or at least I decided that my productivity to-do lists system was failing me. So I'm on the search now for something new, but I'm intrigued. What do you use? Are you happy with what you have for to-do lists? How do you keep track of stuff in the world? STEPH: Oh goodness. I'm now going to overanalyze everything that I do and how I keep track of the things that I do. [chuckles] So currently, I have two things that I used to track, and that is...okay, I'm going to expand. I have three to-do lists that I use to track. [laughs] Todoist is where I add most things of where whatever I just think of, and I want to capture it Todoist is usually where it goes. Because then it's very easy for me to then go back to that list and prioritize or just simply delete stuff. If I haven't gotten to it in a while, I'm like, fine, let it go. Move on. And then the other place I've started using just because it's been helpful in terms of linking to stuff is Basecamp. So we use Basecamp at thoughtbot, and we use it for a number of internal projects. But I have created my own project thanks to some advice from Mike Burns, a fellow thoughtboter, because he created his own and uses that to manage a lot of his to-dos and tasks that he has. And then that way, it's already one-stop shopping since you're in Basecamp a lot throughout the day or at least where you're going to visit some of the tasks that you need to work on. So that has been helpful just because it's very simple and easy to reference. And then calendar, I just live by my calendar. So if something is of the utmost importance...I realize I'm going in this in terms of order of importance. If something is critical, it's on my calendar. That's where it goes. Because I know I have not only put it somewhere that I am guaranteed to see it, but I have carved out time for it too. That's my three-tier system. [laughs] CHRIS: I like it. That sounds great, not overly complicated but plenty going on there. And it sounds like it's working for you, sounds like you're happy with that. STEPH: It has worked really well. I'm still evaluating the Basecamp, but so far, it has been helpful. It does help me separate between fun to-do items which go in Todoist and maybe just some other work stuff. But if it's really work-focused, then it's going in Basecamp right now. So there's a little helpful separation there between what's going on in my life versus then things I need to prioritize for work. What are the things that you're currently using, and where are you feeling they're falling down or not being as helpful as you'd like them to be? CHRIS: My current exploration, I'm starting to look for a new to-do list-type things. Specifically, I've been using Trello for a long time for probably a couple of years now. And that was a purposeful choice to move away from some of the more structured systems because I found they weren't providing as much value. I was constantly bouncing between different clients and moving into different systems. And so much of the work was centrally organized there that the little bit of stuff that I had personally to keep track of was easy enough to manage within a Trello board. And then slowly, my Trello board morphed into like 10 Trello boards for different topics. So I have one that's like this is research. These are things that I want to look into. And so I can have sort of a structure and prioritization within that context in my world. And then there's one for fitness and one for cooking. I'm trying to think which else...experiments, as I'm thinking about I want to try this new thing in the world. I have a board for that. So I have a bunch of those that allow me to keep things that aren't as actionable, that are more sort of explorations. But then they each have their own structure. And that I found to be really useful and I think I'll hold on to. But my core to-do board has started failing me, has started being just not quite enough. And then, more so, I wanted a distinct thing for work for a professional context. So I was like, all right, let me go back to the drawing board and see what's out there. And I did a quick scan of Todoist and Things, respectively. And I've settled on Things for right now. It just matches a little bit more to my mental model. Todoist really pushes on the idea of due dates or dates as a singular idea associated with most things. Almost everything should have a date. And I kind of philosophically disagree with that. Whereas Things has this interesting idea of there is the idea of a due date, but it's de-emphasized in their UI because not everything has a due date; most things don't. But Things has a separate idea of a scheduled date or an intent date. Like yeah, I think I'll work on that on Wednesday. It's not due on Wednesday; that's just when I want to work on it. It can have a separate due date. Like, maybe it's due Friday. STEPH: Is the name of the application that you're saying is it Things? Is that the name of it? CHRIS: Yeah, it is. STEPH: I haven't heard this one. You kept saying Things. I was like, wait, is he being vague? But I realized you're being specific. [laughs] CHRIS: It's one of the few things that...yeah, one of the few things that I think is not great about Things. It's from a company Cultured Code, and the application is called Things. And that is all I will say on that topic. Different names maybe would have been better, but they seem to have carved out enough of an attention space. Enough people know of it that if you search for Things and to-do list, it will very quickly pop up. But yeah, that's a pretty ambiguous name. They maybe could have done a different one there. But the design of the application is really nice. It's on my desktop. And now I have it on my phone as well, and they sync between them and all the stuff. So there's never going to be a perfect system. I'm certain of that. I've at least talked myself out of trying to build my own because, man, have I fallen into that trap before. Oh goodness, so many times. STEPH: I'm very proud of you. CHRIS: Thank you. I'm trying. STEPH: But yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it evolves. I continue to struggle with there are these things that come to mind, and I want to capture them during the day. But some of them are just stories I'm telling myself, which would probably be best captured in a journal tool. And then there are notes that I might want to keep on remote work and how people think about that. And so I'm starting to think about Obsidian or a note-taking system for that. And then I've got this Trello board concoction. And now I've got a to-do...and suddenly I'm like, well, that's too many things. And so I'm trying to not overthink it. I'm trying to not underthink it. I'm trying to just find that perfect amount of thinking. That's what I'm aiming for. I'm not sure I'm going to hit it directly, [laughs], but that's what I'm aiming for. Mid-roll Ad And now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Scout APM. Scout APM is leading-edge application performance monitoring that's designed to help Rails developers quickly find and fix performance issues without having to deal with the headache or overhead of enterprise platform feature bloat. With a developer-centric UI and tracing logic that ties bottlenecks to source code, you can quickly pinpoint and resolve those performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, memory bloat, and much more. Scout's real-time alerting and weekly digest emails let you rest easy knowing Scout's on watch and resolving performance issues before your customers ever see them. Scout has also launched its new error monitoring feature add-on for Python applications. Now you can connect your error reporting and application monitoring data on one platform. See for yourself why developers call Scout their best friend and try our error monitoring and APM free for 14 days; no credit card needed. And as an added-on bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. Learn more at scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. STEPH: Some of the topics that you mentioned earlier did stand out to me when you're talking about recipes and working out some other topics. Those are things for me that I often just put in notes. So I liked the word that you used for stories that you're telling yourself or things that you're interested in. Is that something that...I don't put it in Todoist or put it somewhere because I don't really have an action item. It's more like, yeah, this recipe looks awesome and one day...so I'm going to stash it somewhere so I can find it. I'm currently using Notion. I used Bear before. It is beautiful. I really liked Bear, but I needed a little bit more structure, and Notion gave me that structure. And so I will just dump it in Notion. And then it's very searchable, so I can always find whatever recipe or whatever thought that was as long as I try to add buzzwords to my own notes. Like, what would have Stephanie searched for looking for this? So I will try to include some of those words just so I can easily find it. CHRIS: I love you're defining yourself as a Stephanie. For a random Stephanie walking through the woods, what search terms? How can I SEO arbitrage a Stephanie? STEPH: What would she look for? CHRIS: Who knows? STEPH: That Stephanie, she's sneaky. You never know. CHRIS: You never can tell. Obsidian is the one that I'm looking at now. But I'm currently using Apple Notes. And it's really nice to be able to search directly into a note very quickly. I have that both via Alfred and then on my phone. And I'm finding a lot of utility in that, particularly for notes, for things I want to talk to someone about. But now there are seven different things, and how are they connected? And where is something? And to the question of where would a future Christopher look for this, let's make sure I put it in that place. But I don't know what that dude's going to be up to. He's a weird guy. He might look in a completely random place. So I'm trying to outsmart him, and oof, good luck, me. STEPH: [laughs] I have heard of Obsidian, but I don't recall much about it. So I'd have to look into it. I do feel your pain around Todoist and where it really encourages you to set a date. Because there are often things where I'm like, I saw something I want to read. And I know there are tons of tools. There are so many tools and videos and things that people could watch if they really want to invest in this workflow. But right now, I've told myself no, and so I use Todoist. And I see something I want to read, and so I just link to it. And I don't have a particular date that I want to read it. I'm like, this looks cool, and so then I add it to a reading list. But that also, I guess, could be something for notes. More and more, I'm trying to shove things into notes, so it feels less like a task and more of a I'm curious, or I'm interested in things that have piqued my interest. Let me go back and look at that list to see if there's something I want to pull from today or I need inspiration. That's what my notes often are; they're typically inspiration for something that I have seen and really liked, or maybe it's a bug that I looked into, and I want to recall how that happened or what was the process. But yeah, my notes are typically a source of inspiration. So I try to dump most things in there. I don't know if that's particularly helpful for your task, though, because it sounds like you're looking for a way to manage the things that you actually need to do versus just capturing all of your thoughts. CHRIS: Honestly, part of it is having a good system for those like, oh, I'd like to read this sometime. Ideally, for me, that doesn't go into my whatever to-do list system. But if my brain doesn't trust that I'll ever read it or if I feel like I'm putting it into a black hole, then my brain is just like, hey, you should really read that thing. Are you thinking about that? You should think about that and just brings it up. And so having a system externalized that I trust such that then the to-do list can be as focused as possible. It's a sort of an arms race back and forth battle type thing of like, I've definitely done the loop of like, all right, I want to capture everything. I want to have perfect, lossless, productivity system, and that is not possible. And so then I overcorrect back the other way. I'm like, whatever, nothing matters. I'll just let everything fall away. And then I'm like, well, then my brain tries to remind me of stuff or tries to remember more. And there's a book, Getting Things Done, which is one of the more common things recommended in the productivity world. And that informs a bunch of my thinking around this, the idea of capturing everything that's in your head so that you can get it out of your head. And in the moment, be focused and in the moment and not having to try and remember. And so that's the ideal that I'm searching for. But it's difficult to build that and make that work. STEPH: It seems the answer is there's no perfect system. It's always finding what works for you. And I feel like it's always going to change from hopefully not month to month because that would be tedious. But it may change year to year depending on how you're prioritizing things and the types of things that you need to remember or that you need to accumulate somewhere. So I feel like it's always this evolving, iterative process of changing where we're storing this. But I feel like where you store the notes and inspiration, that's something that, ideally, you want to make sure that you can always continue to keep forward. So even if you do change systems, that's something that's usually on my mind. It's like, well, if I use this system to store all of my thoughts, what if I want to move to something else? How stuck am I to this particular platform? And can I still have ownership of the things that I have added here? But overall, yeah, I'd be intrigued to see what other people think if they have a particular system that works for them, or they have suggestions. But overall, it seems to be whatever caters best to your personality and your workflow. That's why there are so many of these. There are so many thoughts, so many videos, so many styles. CHRIS: Yeah, I think a critical part of what you just said that feels very true to me is this is something that will change over time as well. Life comes in seasons, and my work may look a certain way, or my life may look a certain way, and then next year, it may be wildly different. And so, finding something that is good enough for right now and then moving forward with that and being open to revisiting it. And yeah, that feels true. So I'm in an explore phase right now. I'll report back if I have any major breakthroughs. But yeah, we'll see how it goes. STEPH: I will say I think the main tool that I have really leaned into, while some of the others will change over time, is my calendar. There are certain things I've let go. My inbox is always going to be messy. My to-do list is always going to be messy. But my calendar that is where things really go to make sure that they happen. And I will even add tasks there as well. So I feel like the calendar will always stick with me because I can trust that as the one source of like, these are the things that have to happen. Everything else I can check for during that day or figure it out as I go. Or if something gets dropped or bounces to the next day, it's okay. CHRIS: Yeah, the calendar is definitely a core truth in my world. Whatever the calendar says, that is true. And I'm actually a...I hope I'm not annoying to anyone. But I'm very pointed in saying, "This recurring meeting that we have if we keep just canceling it the day before every time, let's get this off our calendars. Let's make sure our calendars are telling the truth because I trust that thing very much." And two apps that I'm using right now that I've found really useful in the calendar world are MeetingBar, which I've talked about before. But it's a little menu bar application that shows the next meeting that's upcoming. And then I can click on it and see the list of them and easily join any video call associated, just a nice thing to keep the next thing on my calendar very top of mind, super useful, really love that. That's just open source and easy to run with. The other that I've been spending more and more time with lately is SavvyCal. SavvyCal is similar to Calendly. It's a tool for sharing a link to allow someone to schedule something on your calendar. And, man, it is an impressive piece of technology. I've been leaning into some of the fancier features of it of late. And it has an amazing amount of control, and I think a really well-designed sort of information architecture as well. It took me a little while to figure out how to do everything I wanted to do in it. But I wanted to be able to define a calendar link thing that I could share with someone that really constraints in the way that I wanted. Like, oh, don't let them schedule tomorrow, and make sure there's this much buffer between meetings. And don't let this calendar link schedule too many things on my calendar because I need to control my day, and give me some focus blocks. And they're not actually on my calendar, but please recognize that. And it basically supports all of these different ways of thinking and does an incredible job with it. As an aside, SavvyCal is created by Derrick Reimer, who is the co-host of The Art of Product Podcast, which is co other hosted by Ben Orenstein, former thoughtboter, creator of Upcase, and a handful of other things. So small world and all of that. But yeah, really fantastic piece of technology that I've been loving lately. STEPH: That's really cool. I have not heard of SavvyCal. I've used Calendly and used that a fair amount. And that is so awesome where you can just send it to people, and they can pick time on a calendar and do all the features that you'd mentioned. So it's good to know that there's SavvyCal as well. Well, pivoting just a bit, we have a listener question that I'm really excited to dig into. This question comes from fellow thoughtboter, Steve Polito. And Steve writes in that, "Hey, Bike Shed, I've got a question for you. I find it difficult to know if there's an existing method in a large class or a class that includes many concerns. How can I avoid writing redundant methods when working on a large project?" And Steve provided a really nice just contrived example where he's defined a class user that inherits from ApplicationRecord. And then comments, "Lots of methods making it really hard to scan this giant class. And then there's a method called formatted name. So it takes first name, adds a space, and then adds the user's last name. And then there are a lot more methods in between. And then, way down, there's another method called full name that does the exact same thing. Just to provide a nice example of how can you find a method that has existing logic that you want and avoid implementing essentially the same method and the same class?" So as someone who has worked on some legacy systems this year, I feel that pain. I feel the pain of where you have a really giant class, and that class may also include other modules. So then you have your range of all the methods that you may be looking through gets really widened. And you are looking for particular logic that you feel like may exist in the system, but you really just don't know. So I don't know if I have a concrete method for how you can find duplicate logic and avoid writing that other method. But some of the things that I do is I will initially go to the test. So if there's some logic that I'm looking for and I think it's in this class or I have a suspicion, I will first look to see what has test coverage. And I find that is just easier to skim where I can find, and I'll use grep, and search and just look for anything. In this particular case, let's use first name as our example. So I'm looking for anything that's going to collaborate with first name. Some of the other things that I'll do is I'll try to think of a business case where that logic is used. So, where are we displaying the user's full name? And if I can go to that page and see what's already in use, that may give me a hint to do we already have this logic? Is there something there that I should reuse, or is it something new that I'm implementing? And then if I really want to get fancy about it, for some reason that I really want to see all the methods that are listed, but I'm trying to get rid of some of the noise in the file, then I could programmatically scan through all the available methods by doing something like class.instance methods and passing in false. So we don't include the methods that are from superclasses, which can be very helpful. So that way, you're just seeing what scoped to that class. But then, let's say if you do have a class that is inheriting from other modules, then you may want to include those methods in your search. So to get fancier, you could look at that class' ancestor chain and then collect the classes or models that are custom to your application, and then look at those instance methods. And then you could sort them alphabetically. But you're still really relying on is there a method name that looks very similar to what I would call this method? So I don't know that that's a really efficient way. But if I just feel like there's probably already something in this space and I'm just looking for a clue or some name that's going to hint that something already exists, that's one way I could do it. To throw another wrench in there, I just remembered there are also private methods, and private methods don't get returned from instance methods. I think it's private instance methods is a method that you'd have to call to then include those in your search results as well. So outside of some deeper static analysis, this seems like a hard problem. This seems like something that would be challenging to solve. And then I guess the other one is I ask a friend. So I will often lean on if there's someone else at the team that's been there longer than me is I will just ask in Slack and say, "Hey, I want to do a thing. I'm worried this already exists, or I think it already exists. Does anybody have any clues or ideas as to where this might live?" I know I just ran through a giant list of ideas there. But I'm really curious, what are your thoughts? If you have a messier codebase and you're worried that you are reimplementing logic that already exists, but you're trying to make sure you don't duplicate that logic, how do you avoid that? CHRIS: Well, the first thing I want to say is that I find it really interesting that I think you and I came at this from different directions. My answer, which I'll come to in a minute, is more of the I'm not actually sure that this is that easy to avoid, and maybe that's not the biggest problem in the world. And then I have some thoughts downstream from that. But the list that you just gave was fantastic. That was a tour de force of how to understand and explore a codebase and try and answer this very hard question of like, does this logic already exist somewhere else? So I basically just agree with everything you said. And again, I'm deeply impressed with the range of options that you offer there for trying to figure this out. That said, sometimes codebases just get really large. And this is going to happen. I think the specific mention of concerns as sort of a way that this problem can manifest feels true. Having the user object and being like, oh man, our user object is getting pretty big. Let's pull something out into a concern as just a way to clean it up. That actually adds a layer of indirection that makes it harder to understand the totality of what's going on in this thing. And so personally, I tend to avoid concerns for that reason or at least at the model layer, especially where it's just a we got 1,000 methods here. Let's pull 200 of them into a file and maybe group them somewhat logically. That tends to not solve the problem in my mind. I found that it just basically adds a layer of indirection without much additional value. I will say in this particular case, the thing that we're talking about presenting the full name or the formatted name feels almost like a presentational concern. So I might ask myself, is there a presenter object, something that wraps around a user and encapsulates this? And then we as a team know that that sort of presentational or formatting logic lives in the presentation format or layer. Maybe I'm not entirely convinced of that as an answer. But it's just sort of where can we find organizational lines to draw within our codebases? I talked about query objects earlier. That's one case of this is behavior that I'll often see in classes as, say, a scope or something like that that I will extract out into a query object because it allows me to encapsulate it and break it out a little bit more but still have most of the nice pieces that I would want. So are there different organizational patterns that are useful? I think it's very easy to start drawing arbitrary lines within our codebases and say, "These are services." And it's like, what does that mean? That doesn't mean anything. App Services, that's not a thing, so maybe don't do that. But maybe there are formatters, queries, commands, those feel like...or presenters, queries, commands. Maybe those are organizational structures that can be useful. But switching to the other side of it, the first thing that came to mind is like, this is going to happen. As a codebase grows, this is absolutely going to happen. And so I would ask rather than how can I, as the developer, avoid doing this in the first place...which I think is a good question to ask. And again, everything you listed, Steph, is great. And I think a wonderful list of ways that you can actually try to avoid this. But let's assume it is going to happen. So then, what do we do downstream from that? One answer that comes to mind is code review. Code review is not perfect. But this is the sort of thing that often in code review I will be like, oh, I actually wrote a method that's similar to this. Can you take a look at that and see can we use only one of these or something like that? So I've definitely seen code review be a line of defense on this front. But again, stuff is still going to sneak through. And someday, you'll find it down the road. And that's the point in time that I think is most interesting. When you find this, can you fix it easily? Do you have both process-wise and infrastructure-wise the ability to do a very small PR that just removes the duplicate method, removes the usage of it, and consolidates on the one? It's like, oh, I found it. Here's a 10-line PR that just removes that method, changes the usage. And now we're good. And that can go through code review and CI very quickly. And we have a team culture that allows us to make those tiny changes on the regular to get them out to production as quick as possible so that we know that this is a good code change, all of that. I found there are teams that I've worked on where that process is much slower. And therefore, I will try and roll a change like that up into a bigger PR because I know that's the only way that it's really going to get through. Versus I've been on teams that have very high throughput is probably the best way to describe it. And on those teams, I find that the codebase tends to be in a healthier shape because it just naturally falls out of having a system that allows us to make changes rapidly with high trust, get them out into the world, et cetera. STEPH: This is that bug or inconsistency that's going to show up where on one page you have the user's full name. And then on another page, you have the user's full name, but maybe the last name is not capitalized, or there's just something that's slightly different. And then that's when you realize that you have two implementations of essentially the same logic that have differed just enough. I like how you pointed out that this is one of those things that as a codebase grows, it's probably going to happen, and that's fine. It's one of those if you do have duplicate logic, over time, based on your team's processes, you'll be able to then identify when it does happen, and then look for those preventative patterns for then how you organize your code. How quickly can you make that change? Can you just issue a PR that then removes one of them? But then look for ways to say, how are we going to help our future selves recognize that if we're looking for a user's full name, where's a good place to look for that? And then what's a good domain space or naming that we can give to then help future searchers be able to find it? I also really like your code review example because it does feel like one of those things that, yes, we want to catch it if we can, and we can leverage the team. But then also, it's not the end of the world if some of these methods do get duplicated. There's one other thing that came to mind that it's not really going to help prevent duplicate methods, but it will help you identify unused code. So it's the Unused tooling that you can run on your codebase. And that's something that would be wonderful to run on your codebase every so often. So that way, if someone has added...let's say there was a method that was full name but is not in use. It didn't have test coverage; that's why you didn't find it initially. And so you've introduced your own formatted name. And then, if you run unused at some point, then you'll hopefully catch some of those duplicate methods as long as they're not both in use. CHRIS: I think one more thing that I didn't quite say in my earlier portion about this. But in order to do that, to use Unuse or to have these sort of small pull requests that are going through, you have to have test coverage that is sufficient that you are confident you're not going to break the app. Because the day that you do like, oh, there's a typo here; let me fix it real quick. Or there's this method I'm pretty sure it's not used; let me rip it out. And then you deploy to production, and suddenly the error system is blowing up because, in fact, it was used but sneakily in a way that you didn't think of, and your test coverage didn't catch that. Then you don't have trust in the system, and everything slows down as a result of that. And so I would argue for fixing the root problem there, which is the lack of test coverage rather than the symptom, which is, oh, I made this change, it broke something. Therefore, I won't make small changes anymore. STEPH: Definitely. Yeah, that's a great point. CHRIS: So yeah, I don't have any answer. [laughs] My answers are like, I don't know, it's going to happen, but there's a lot of stuff organizationally that we can do. And granted, you gave a wonderful list of ways to actually avoid this. So I think the combination of our answers really it's a nice spectrum of thoughts on this topic. STEPH: I agree. I feel like we covered a very nice range all the way from trying to identify and then how to prevent it or how to help future people be able to identify where that logic lives and find it more easily. Also, at the end of the day, I like the how big of a problem is this? And it is one of those sure; we want to avoid it. But I liked how you captured that at the beginning where you're like, it's okay. Like, this is going to happen but then have the processes around it to then avoid or be able to undo some of that duplicate work. But otherwise, if it happens, don't sweat it; just look for ways to then prevent it from happening in the future. On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Byeeeeeeeeee!!! Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Russell Brown is back after one of the most exciting weekends in NFL playoff history. Between the Rams last second comeback and the Chiefs and Bills, I'm not sure if anything will ever top it. That being said, there's certain teams cemented on the board for the 2022 NFL Draft. Russ takes a look at the following teams for what they could do in April for the 2022 NFL Draft!- Bills need to go defense right? - Could the Titans surprise everyone with a QB to push Tannehill? - Tampa Bay and Tom Brady set for one more run? - Green Bay and Aaron Rodgers are set for an official divorce? Russ gives his opinion on that and more on Cover 1 | Draft Podcast! Be sure to follow Russ on Twitter: @RussNFLDraft We would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think!—Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT-Access to detailed Premium Content.-Access to our video library.-Access to our private Slack channel.-Sneak peek at upcoming content.-Exclusive group film room sessions.& much more.SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-content-plans/Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below.—DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP!► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.coverapp► iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cover-1/id1355302955?mt=8—► Subscribe to our YouTube channel► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play—Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1.——Follow Us HereTwitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/cover-1The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

Russell Brown is back after one of the most exciting weekends in NFL playoff history. Between the Rams last second comeback and the Chiefs and Bills, I'm not sure if anything will ever top it. That being said, there's certain teams cemented on the board for the 2022 NFL Draft. Russ takes a look at the following teams for what they could do in April for the 2022 NFL Draft! - Bills need to go defense right? - Could the Titans surprise everyone with a QB to push Tannehill? - Tampa Bay and Tom Brady set for one more run? - Green Bay and Aaron Rodgers are set for an official divorce? Russ gives his opinion on that and more on Cover 1 | Draft Podcast! Be sure to follow Russ on Twitter: @RussNFLDraft We would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think! — Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT -Access to detailed Premium Content. -Access to our video library. -Access to our private Slack channel. -Sneak peek at upcoming content. -Exclusive group film room sessions. & much more. SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-content-plans/ Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below. — DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP! ► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.coverapp ► iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cover-1/id1355302955?mt=8 — ► Subscribe to our YouTube channel ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play — Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1. — — Follow Us Here Twitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/ Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/cover-1 The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

Despite a heroic outing from quarterback Josh Allen, the Buffalo Bills simply could not stop an overwhelming barrage from the Kansas City Chiefs' offense, losing their divisional round contest in overtime by the score of 42-36. With the loss, the Bills have been eliminated from playoff contention, putting an end to their 2021 season. On this episode of the Cover 1 Roundup, David Faux and Kyle Silagyi discuss their takeaways from Buffalo's playoff loss and briefly look forward to the offseason. Fantasy Sponsor - Underdog Fantasy New Users receive free $25 when using Promo Code: COVER1 Link: https://underdogfantasy.com/?_branch_... Cover 1 would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think! — Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT -Access to detailed Premium Content. -Access to our video library. -Access to our private Slack channel. -Sneak peek at upcoming content. -Exclusive group film room sessions. & much more. SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-conten... Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below. — DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP! ► Android: ... ► iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id15325 ... ► Subscribe to our YouTube channel ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 Roundup Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to Cover 1 Roundup Podcast on Google Play ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 Roundup Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 Roundup Podcast on Google Play — Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1. — — Follow Us Here Twitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/ Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/co ... The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

SUBSCRIBE TO SALES SECRETS PODCASTITUNES ► https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/s...​SPOTIFY ► https://open.spotify.com/show/1BKYsQo...​YOUTUBE ► https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVUh...​THIS EPISODE IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY SEAMLESS.AI - THE WORLD'S BEST SALES LEADSWEBSITE ► https://www.seamless.ai/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/seamlessai/JOIN FOR FREE TODAY ► https://login.seamless.ai/invite/podcastSHOW DESCRIPTIONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson, entrepreneur and founder of Seamless.AI. Twice a week, Brandon interviews the world's top sales experts like Jill Konrath, Aaron Ross, John Barrows, Trish Bertuzzi, Mark Hunter, Anthony Iannarino and many more -- to uncover actionable strategies, playbooks, tips and insights you can use to generate more revenue and close more business. If you want to learn the most powerful sales secrets from the top sales experts in the world, Sales Secrets From The Top 1% is the place to find them.SALES SECRET FROM THE TOP 1%WEBSITE ► https://www.secretsalesbook.com/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/sales-secret-book/ABOUT BRANDONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson (over $100M in sales deals), multi-million dollar sales tech entrepreneur, motivational sales speaker, international sales DJ (DJ NoQ5) and sales author who is obsessed with helping you maximize your sales success.Mr. Bornancin is currently the CEO & Founder at Seamless.ai delivering the world's best sales leads. Over 10,000+ companies use Seamless.ai to generate millions in sales at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Slack, Dell, Oracle & many others.Mr. Bornancin is also the author of "Sales Secrets From The Top 1%" where the world's best sales experts share their secrets to sales success and author of “The Ultimate Guide To Overcoming Sales Objections.”FOLLOW BRANDONLINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonbornancin/INSTAGRAM ► https://www.instagram.com/brandonbornancinofficial/FACEBOOK ► https://www.facebook.com/SeamlessAITWITTER ► https://twitter.com/BBornancin

One of the reasons that many of us have trouble giving ourselves slack is because of our internalized perfectionism - it's something that controls our workflow and prevents us from ever taking a break because in our head we know we could be doing more. Even during the writing of this episode I had to fight off some of this internal perfectionism - this episode wasn't supposed to be entirely about perfectionism, but it was going to take a lot more than just one section to really tackle the topic - so now what was just going to be a two-part episode on giving yourself some slack is a series - and had I come into this knowing it was going to be a series I would have definitely approached it differently, but that's okay, it doesn't have to be perfect.In today's episode, we're going to be exploring the idea of how perfection acts as a coping mechanism - and why that's not a great thing. We'll also be looking at some of the different types of perfectionism and then we'll be exploring some of the ways that we can start to work on conquering our own perfectionism.Support me on PatreonConnect with me on:FacebookTwitterInstagramor ask me a question on my Contact PageFind the show note at HackingYourADHD.com/perfectlyimperfectThis Episode's Top TipsMany of us with ADHD have picked up perfectionism as a coping mechanism to try and deal with the mistakes that have come from us having ADHD - however, perfectionism is a maladaptive coping mechanism that often leads to more problems than it solvesThere are three types of perfectionism - self-oriented perfectionism, other-oriented perfectionism and socially-prescribed perfectionism.The first step in dealing with our perfectionism is understanding that our perfectionist expectations of ourselves are unrealistic and that having those unrealistic expectations is unhealthy - if we can relax those standards we will often save time, effort, and stress.Practice Imperfection by choosing small tasks that you can be imperfect at, such as using multiple colors of pens (without a pattern), not correcting typos in texts to friends or even something like wearing mismatched socks (I mean as long as they're the same kind - I just mean two socks with different colors or patterns not like wool socks and cotton socks, I'm not a monster).Look for feedback before you're 100% done with a project - try out asking for feedback at 30% and 90% and be sure to be specific about the type of feedback you're looking for at each point.

What's going on with the tech antitrust bill being debated in the Senate?  PPI's Michael Mandel and Malena Dailey join the show to discuss tech platforms, the consumer welfare standard, all things antitrust.  Does Big Tech need to be more regulated, and if so how? are there other industries more deserving of antitrust enforcement? Read Michael and Malena's work:  https://www.progressivepolicy.org/pressrelease/new-research-from-ppi-shows-harmful-impact-of-the-klobuchar-grassley-antitrust-bill-to-american-consumers-and-competition/   To make sure you hear every episode, join our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/neoliberalproject. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus episodes, our sticker-of-the-month club, and our insider Slack.  Become a supporter today! Got questions for the Neoliberal Podcast?  Send them to mailbag@neoliberalproject.org Follow us at: https://twitter.com/ne0liberal https://www.instagram.com/neoliberalproject/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/1930401007051265/   Join a local chapter at https://neoliberalproject.org/join

Kris & David are joined by Mike Sempervive (@Sempervive) to discuss the week that was January 19-25, 1991. We talk about WCW being forced to move the next Clash of the Champions from CNN Center's atrium to the Georgia Mountain Center in Gainesville due to the Persian Gulf War, as well as Dusty Rhodes beginning in his new job as head booker, The Steiners killing jobbers, Arn Anderson & Barry Windham tearing up the hood, and so much more in a great section. We then talk about a Triple Crown title change in AJPW, Greg Valentine re-upping with the WWF and possibly being punished in the process by the company in the process, Joe Pedicino making moves at NATPE, the war between the USWA and the TWF in Dallas, Jesse Ventura/Grudge Match news, and then a huge WWF section. There, we have Royal Rumble '91 with all of the news from the show, plus Dave Meltzer going scorched earth on Hulk Hogan & Vince McMahon for the way they are handling the Persian Gulf conflict and Sgt. Slaughter's character. Fantastic show so LISTEN NOW!!!!!!!Timestamps:0:00:00 WCW1:50:05 Potpourri: AJPW, NJPW, EMLL, Monterrey, UWA, WWC, UWF, GWF, Suncoast, IWA (Russen), USWA (Memphis & Dallas), TWF, Portland, & Jesse Ventura/Grudge Match2:43:04 Classic Commercial Break2:47:36 Halftime3:00:11 WWF5:26:38 Patreon Preview: Transcript of John Collins harassing a message board poster via AOL Instant MessengerTo support the show and get access to exclusive rewards like special members-only monthly themed shows, go to our Patreon page at Patreon.com/BetweenTheSheets and become an ongoing Patron. Becoming a Between the Sheets Patron will also get you exclusive access to not only the monthly themed episode of Between the Sheets, but also access to our new mailbag segment, a Patron-only chat room on Slack, and anything else we do outside of the main shows!If you're looking for the best deal on a VPN service—short for Virtual Private Network, it helps you get around regional restrictions as well as browse the internet more securely—then VyprVPN is what you've been looking for. Not only will using our link help support Between The Sheets, but you'll get a special discount, with prices as low as $1.67/month if you go with a three year subscription. With numerous great features and even a TV-specific Android app to make streaming easier, there is no better choice if you're looking to subscribe to WWE Network, AEW Plus, and other region-locked services.For the best in both current and classic indie wrestling streaming, make sure to check out IndependentWrestling.tv and use coupon code BTSPOD for a free 5 day trial! (You can also go directly to TinyURL.com/IWTVsheets to sign up that way.) If you convert to a paid subscriber, we get a kickback for referring you, allowing you to support both the show and the indie scene.To subscribe, you can find us on iTunes, Google Play, and just about every other podcast app's directory, or you can also paste Feeds.FeedBurner.com/BTSheets into your favorite podcast app using whatever “add feed manually” option it has.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/between-the-sheets/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

SUBSCRIBE TO SALES SECRETS PODCASTITUNES ► https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/s...​SPOTIFY ► https://open.spotify.com/show/1BKYsQo...​YOUTUBE ► https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVUh...​THIS EPISODE IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY SEAMLESS.AI - THE WORLD'S BEST SALES LEADSWEBSITE ► https://www.seamless.ai/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/seamlessai/JOIN FOR FREE TODAY ► https://login.seamless.ai/invite/podcastSHOW DESCRIPTIONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson, entrepreneur and founder of Seamless.AI. Twice a week, Brandon interviews the world's top sales experts like Jill Konrath, Aaron Ross, John Barrows, Trish Bertuzzi, Mark Hunter, Anthony Iannarino and many more -- to uncover actionable strategies, playbooks, tips and insights you can use to generate more revenue and close more business. If you want to learn the most powerful sales secrets from the top sales experts in the world, Sales Secrets From The Top 1% is the place to find them.SALES SECRET FROM THE TOP 1%WEBSITE ► https://www.secretsalesbook.com/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/sales-secret-book/ABOUT BRANDONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson (over $100M in sales deals), multi-million dollar sales tech entrepreneur, motivational sales speaker, international sales DJ (DJ NoQ5) and sales author who is obsessed with helping you maximize your sales success.Mr. Bornancin is currently the CEO & Founder at Seamless.ai delivering the world's best sales leads. Over 10,000+ companies use Seamless.ai to generate millions in sales at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Slack, Dell, Oracle & many others.Mr. Bornancin is also the author of "Sales Secrets From The Top 1%" where the world's best sales experts share their secrets to sales success and author of “The Ultimate Guide To Overcoming Sales Objections.”FOLLOW BRANDONLINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonbornancin/INSTAGRAM ► https://www.instagram.com/brandonbornancinofficial/FACEBOOK ► https://www.facebook.com/SeamlessAITWITTER ► https://twitter.com/BBornancin

Dr. Fern B. Slack is a veterinarian with an extensive knowledge in caring for cats. Discover her expertise and amazing insight in this interview with Dr. Karen Becker. For more information go to Keeping Cats Healthy: It's All About the Food They Eat (mercola.com)

In episode #1983, Neil and Eric talk about which meetings to cut from your week to improve your focus. We've all had those meetings where we don't understand why we had to be there. Tune in to learn our tricks for trimming the fat and only attend the meetings that matter. TIME-STAMPED SHOW NOTES: [00:20] Today's topic: Cut These Meetings From Your Week to Focus. [00:30] Why you should cut any meeting where there are multiple people within your department. [01:30] How to audit your past meetings to determine which ones were useful and gave you energy. [02:28] Why it's useful to cut out meetings that contain information and updates that could be conveyed over Slack or email. [03:22] Neil's philosophy on doing quick calls for updates to avoid unnecessary meetings. [04:03] That's it for today! [04:11] Go to https://marketingschool.io/live to apply for our next event in Austin, Texas!   Links Mentioned in Today's Episode:   Slack Subscribe to our premium podcast (with tons of goodies!): https://www.marketingschool.io/pro   Leave Some Feedback:     What should we talk about next? Please let us know in the comments below Did you enjoy this episode? If so, please leave a short review.     Connect with Us:    Neilpatel.com Quick Sprout  Growth Everywhere Single Grain Twitter @neilpatel  Twitter @ericosiu

SUBSCRIBE TO SALES SECRETS PODCASTITUNES ► https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/s...​SPOTIFY ► https://open.spotify.com/show/1BKYsQo...​YOUTUBE ► https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVUh...​THIS EPISODE IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY SEAMLESS.AI - THE WORLD'S BEST SALES LEADSWEBSITE ► https://www.seamless.ai/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/seamlessai/JOIN FOR FREE TODAY ► https://login.seamless.ai/invite/podcastSHOW DESCRIPTIONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson, entrepreneur and founder of Seamless.AI. Twice a week, Brandon interviews the world's top sales experts like Jill Konrath, Aaron Ross, John Barrows, Trish Bertuzzi, Mark Hunter, Anthony Iannarino and many more -- to uncover actionable strategies, playbooks, tips and insights you can use to generate more revenue and close more business. If you want to learn the most powerful sales secrets from the top sales experts in the world, Sales Secrets From The Top 1% is the place to find them.SALES SECRET FROM THE TOP 1%WEBSITE ► https://www.secretsalesbook.com/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/sales-secret-book/ABOUT BRANDONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson (over $100M in sales deals), multi-million dollar sales tech entrepreneur, motivational sales speaker, international sales DJ (DJ NoQ5) and sales author who is obsessed with helping you maximize your sales success.Mr. Bornancin is currently the CEO & Founder at Seamless.ai delivering the world's best sales leads. Over 10,000+ companies use Seamless.ai to generate millions in sales at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Slack, Dell, Oracle & many others.Mr. Bornancin is also the author of "Sales Secrets From The Top 1%" where the world's best sales experts share their secrets to sales success and author of “The Ultimate Guide To Overcoming Sales Objections.”FOLLOW BRANDONLINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonbornancin/INSTAGRAM ► https://www.instagram.com/brandonbornancinofficial/FACEBOOK ► https://www.facebook.com/SeamlessAITWITTER ► https://twitter.com/BBornancin

In this episode of "Learn Videography," JJ and Kyle discuss building a business that is conducive to productivity, automating your business and building out a tech stack that works for you and your clients. They'll share their favorite productivity tools including Gmail, QuickBooks, Slack, & more. Getting your business on autopilot can be an incredibly freeing experience and will allow you to spend more time with clients making films instead of doing paperwork. Some of the software mentioned in today's episode Quickbooks Gmail Slack Notion Zapier Incfile.com Happyscribe.io Wrapbinder.com Frameset.app You can follow our hosts at @jjenglert and @kalvisuals To join a community of media professionals focused on scaling their business, join our Slack channel for Jump Studios. Learn Videography is presented by Industry Jump, the hiring platform for filmmakers. At Industry Jump, content creators can create a free portfolio, apply to jobs, and seek video mentoring from top filmmakers. Employers seeking filmmakers to hire can post a job for free, or hire a videographer nearby. Learn Videography is also presented by Jump Studios, the CRM platform for content creators that includes a video review suite, invoicing with payments, and video contracts with digital signatures. To get special behind-the-scenes photos, follow @learnvideography and @industryjump on Instagram. You can submit questions to be answered during the show by sending a direct message to @learnvideography on Instagram. #videography #videographers #contentcreators #Filmmakers #videocreators #industryjump #learnvideography --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/learn-videography/message

Recorded 1/20/22 with Ponch and GMO as they discuss the benefits of an SLT Team Retreat. Documents available on the First F channel on SLACK. POC: GMO@F3Nation.com

SUBSCRIBE TO SALES SECRETS PODCASTITUNES ► https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/s...​SPOTIFY ► https://open.spotify.com/show/1BKYsQo...​YOUTUBE ► https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVUh...​THIS EPISODE IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY SEAMLESS.AI - THE WORLD'S BEST SALES LEADSWEBSITE ► https://www.seamless.ai/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/seamlessai/JOIN FOR FREE TODAY ► https://login.seamless.ai/invite/podcastSHOW DESCRIPTIONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson, entrepreneur and founder of Seamless.AI. Twice a week, Brandon interviews the world's top sales experts like Jill Konrath, Aaron Ross, John Barrows, Trish Bertuzzi, Mark Hunter, Anthony Iannarino and many more -- to uncover actionable strategies, playbooks, tips and insights you can use to generate more revenue and close more business. If you want to learn the most powerful sales secrets from the top sales experts in the world, Sales Secrets From The Top 1% is the place to find them.SALES SECRET FROM THE TOP 1%WEBSITE ► https://www.secretsalesbook.com/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/sales-secret-book/ABOUT BRANDONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson (over $100M in sales deals), multi-million dollar sales tech entrepreneur, motivational sales speaker, international sales DJ (DJ NoQ5) and sales author who is obsessed with helping you maximize your sales success.Mr. Bornancin is currently the CEO & Founder at Seamless.ai delivering the world's best sales leads. Over 10,000+ companies use Seamless.ai to generate millions in sales at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Slack, Dell, Oracle & many others.Mr. Bornancin is also the author of "Sales Secrets From The Top 1%" where the world's best sales experts share their secrets to sales success and author of “The Ultimate Guide To Overcoming Sales Objections.”FOLLOW BRANDONLINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonbornancin/INSTAGRAM ► https://www.instagram.com/brandonbornancinofficial/FACEBOOK ► https://www.facebook.com/SeamlessAITWITTER ► https://twitter.com/BBornancin

Join Patti Katter with Zach Schleien as they talk about finding love through technology. Zach is the founder of FilterOff, a dating app that allows people to have a three-minute virtual date and decide whether it is a match or not. He shares how the app connects people, and sparks love between them. Here's a breakdown of what to expect in this episode: Zach's decision to create a dating app What separates FilterOff from other dating apps How the app's speed-dating feature works Zach's biggest trial and how he overcame it Reviews about the app from Zach's family and friends And so much more! ~ About Zach Schleien: Zach Schleien built his first company going into senior year of college called BeginU, a platform for college students to find projects and work opportunities to develop their skills. Following BeginU, he then launched his second company, Top Romp, an online dating blog that reviewed hacks and apps for the modern dater. Zach then pursued his Masters in Information Management from Syracuse University, where he soon launched his third company, LIFT Protein Muffins. Starting LIFT was where he first dipped his toe into crowdfunding, raising over $5,000 in 30 days on Kickstarter. That summer, he worked for bitly as a Data Analyst. While in school, he co-authored the book, Hacking The Internship Process, which became the number two bestseller for internships on Amazon. One year later, he sold his first company, Top Romp. Following graduation, he secured a job in IT with Johnson & Johnson. After his friend's passing with mental illness, Zach dedicated himself to helping people with mental illness. He launched a $9,500 project on CaringCrowd (a crowdfunding platform for non-profits) with the funds going to the National Alliance on Mental Illness – NAMI New Jersey. He attained his goal within two and a half weeks. The proceeds went to the NAMI Basics program, which supported 360 parents with children who have a mental illness. Zach wanted to do more, so he teamed up with his best friend David and launched the mental health Slack community, 18percent. With mental health awareness month coming up, he found another project intending to raise $30,000 on CaringCrowd to support 600 families where at least one member of their family had a mental illness. The funds would go to NAMI El Dorado. He attained this mark within three weeks. Zach's passion for helping people, combined with his love for entrepreneurship, has helped him grow these companies and non-profits, allowing them to hit their crowdfunding goals. On the side, Zach runs the video dating app Filter Off. ~ You can find Zach Schleien on . . . Website: https://zachschleien.com/ FilterOff Website: https://www.getfilteroff.com/ ~ Connect with Patti! Website: https://pattikatter.com/ Online Shop: https://thepatrioticmermaid.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pattikatter/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pattikatter/ Don't forget to join The Wake Up with Patti Katter's private Facebook group. Listen to Wake Up With Patti Katter on all major podcast platforms. Interested in Podcast Editing Services or Interested in starting your own Podcast? Ask Patti for a Consult! Podblade: https://app.podblade.com/r/5KQLLY --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/wakeupwithpattikatter/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/wakeupwithpattikatter/support

This week we discuss Open Source Model Business Models, Cloud Migrations and the prospect of cloud providers becoming “dumb pipes.” Plus, some thoughts on the rise of Professor Galloway. Rundown There is such a thing as an open source business model (https://tracymiranda.com/2022/01/18/there-is-such-a-thing-as-an-open-source-business-model/) Web3 | No Mercy / No Malice (https://www.profgalloway.com/web3/) AWS is Not a Dumb Pipe (https://matt-rickard.com/aws-is-not-a-dumb-pipe/) Clouded Judgement 1.14.22 (https://cloudedjudgement.substack.com/p/clouded-judgement-11422?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=cta) Remote work and cloud adoption lands 1Password with $620M Series C, now valued at $6.8B (https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/19/1password-series-c-funding/) Relevant to your Interests Kubernetes needs a developer platform (https://odedia.org/kubernetes-needs-a-developer-platform) Observable raises $35.6M to bring better visibility to enterprise data (https://venturebeat.com/2022/01/13/observable-raises-35-6m-to-bring-better-observability-to-enterprise-data/) People Building 'Blockchain City' in Wyoming Scammed by Hackers - Slashdot (https://it.slashdot.org/story/22/01/14/2049248/people-building-blockchain-city-in-wyoming-scammed-by-hackers?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed) NVIDIA's GeForce RTX 3090 Ti Custom Models Production Reportedly Halted Amidst BIOS & Design Issues (https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3090-ti-custom-models-production-reportedly-halted-amidst-bios-design-issues/) Superior Court judge rules that Google's nondisclosure agreements are so broad they violate the state's ban on noncompete agreements (https://twitter.com/josheidelson/status/1482172137100103681?s=21) Dutch competition authority recently ruled that Apple must allow dating apps to offer alternative payments. (https://twitter.com/eric_seufert/status/1482352249359765504?s=20) Web3 is going just great (https://web3isgoinggreat.com/) It was nice to be invited but I wish I hadn't been. #aws #tektok (https://www.tiktok.com/@quinnypig/video/7051805142575828229?_d=secCgwIARCbDRjEFSADKAESPgo8n%2BSYoNkGjICEDwLtsEq5Vw8vYOrCeKA%2BYdnbH2q%2BGzCJSq0PR6HDK9dRZrD9ybwiTPzGCTYAE5wzEUzOGgA%3D&checksum=39492f2b99a6e16e45d03599f4c740f13d168c4885ba087d002c9da02d345c79&language=en&preview_pb=0&sec_user_id=MS4wLjABAAAAloz292Ou8nd0JpLkbR5Ni1HtvoxFxXznJH7K8cTaC-sb_PTSx0Gz3VJhg0IaQE-y&share_app_id=1233&share_item_id=7051805142575828229&share_link_id=ED4E7720-207C-4CE8-B721-3156FE8CBB61&source=h5_m×tamp=1642380671&tt_from=copy&u_code=dh620mifaijla3&user_id=6930822818507047942&utm_campaign=client_share&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=copy&_r=1) 10 real-world stories of how we've compromised CI/CD pipelines (https://research.nccgroup.com/2022/01/13/10-real-world-stories-of-how-weve-compromised-ci-cd-pipelines/) Ford signs five-year payments deal with Stripe for e-commerce drive (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/17/ford-signs-five-year-payments-deal-with-stripe-for-e-commerce-drive.html) Microsoft to acquire Activision Blizzard to bring the joy and community of gaming to everyone, across every device - Stories (https://news.microsoft.com/2022/01/18/microsoft-to-acquire-activision-blizzard-to-bring-the-joy-and-community-of-gaming-to-everyone-across-every-device/) I automated my job over a year ago and haven't told anyone. (https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/s2igq9/i_automated_my_job_over_a_year_ago_and_havent/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) Tales From Crypto: A Billionaire Meme Feud Threatens Industry Unity (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/18/business/dealbook/web3-venture-capital-andreessen.html) Better.com CEO Who Fired 900 Workers On Zoom Call Reinstalled (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2022/01/18/better-ceo-vishal-garg-returns-softbank/?sh=3d7d30903595) Charted: Big tech's ballooning deals (https://www.axios.com/newsletters/axios-login-1a493767-1c76-4401-bcde-04aaa86927e2.html?chunk=1&utm_term=emshare) Airlines warn of "catastrophic disruption" in 5g service deployment (https://www.axios.com/airlines-catastrophic-disruption-flights-5g-55446670-0f98-4f7b-8a89-c76bdacb2675.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioslogin&stream=top) Harness releases open version of continuous delivery product with access to source code – TechCrunch (https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/19/harness-releases-open-version-of-continuous-delivery-product-with-access-to-source-code/?tpcc=tcplustwitter&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly90LmNvLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADLmrkm7w_e6Izxgu7aR_NvVW7P0_mJUDI6o-fuqX4cafEZWt6pA7YDzu1R1QI58Z1Abyd6nBlRaz3J99j3TJdT7rBb_-hdPut3zznMQrSKhqeexm71mz9m5wJ4sG6InSkB4lr-mS63m7GT2EDpUFDyvAfhEoDoos75FVvDKH8An) Kubernetes needs a developer platform (https://odedia.org/kubernetes-needs-a-developer-platform) ‘It's All Just Wild': Tech Start-Ups Reach a New Peak of Froth (https://dnyuz.com/2022/01/19/its-all-just-wild-tech-start-ups-reach-a-new-peak-of-froth/) SaaS acquisition multiples in 2021 (https://blossomstreetventures.medium.com/saas-acquisition-multiples-in-2021-d9f646f914ba) Google to free G Suite users: Pay up or lose your account (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/01/google-tells-free-g-suite-users-pay-up-or-lose-your-account/) Zoom multiple (https://twitter.com/gilbert/status/1482075188602699779?s=21) Nonsense Busy Simulator (https://busysimulator.com/) Sponsors strongDM — Manage and audit remote access to infrastructure. Start your free 14-day trial today at strongdm.com/SDT (http://strongdm.com/SDT) Conferences THAT Conference comes to Texas (https://that.us/events/tx/2022/), May 23-26, 2022 Discount Codes: Everything Ticket ($75 off): SDTFriends75 3 Day Camper Ticket ($50 off): SDTFriends50 Virtual Ticket ($75 off): SDTFriendsON75 THAT Conference Wisconsin Call for Speakers is open (https://that.us/call-for-counselors/wi/2022/), July 25, 2022 DevOpsDays Chicago 2022: Call for Speakers/Papers (https://sessionize.com/devopsdays-chicago-2022/), May 10 & 11th, 2022 CFP closes on Jan 31, 2022, DevOps Days Birmingham AL, 2022 Call for Speakers (https://www.papercall.io/devopsdays-2022-birmingham-al), April 18 & 19th, 2022 CFP closes on Jan 31, 2022, SDT news & hype Join us in Slack (http://www.softwaredefinedtalk.com/slack). Get a SDT Sticker! Send your postal address to stickers@softwaredefinedtalk.com (mailto:stickers@softwaredefinedtalk.com) and we will send you free laptop stickers! Follow us on Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/sdtpodcast), Twitter (https://twitter.com/softwaredeftalk), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/softwaredefinedtalk/), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/software-defined-talk/) and YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi3OJPV6h9tp-hbsGBLGsDQ/featured). Use the code SDT to get $20 off Coté's book, (https://leanpub.com/digitalwtf/c/sdt) Digital WTF (https://leanpub.com/digitalwtf/c/sdt), so $5 total. Become a sponsor of Software Defined Talk (https://www.softwaredefinedtalk.com/ads)! Recommendations Brandon: Sweet Booby Podcast (https://www.tortoisemedia.com/listen/sweet-bobby/). Link to subscribe in Overcast (https://overcast.fm/+0oa3C8efk). Matt: Eufy RoboVac35c Wi-Fi Robotic Vacuum (https://amzn.to/35aVZUL). Cricket Explainer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZGLHdcw2RM). Coté: The Good Enough Parent (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58644937-the-good-enough-parent). Photo Credits Cloud Pipes Banner (https://unsplash.com/photos/scUBcasSvbE) CoverArt (https://unsplash.com/photos/xe-ss5Tg2mo)

Erik and Anthony dive into the analytics and film of the Buffalo Bills and Kansas City Chiefs. #NFL #Billsmafia Fantasy Sponsor - Underdog Fantasy Get $10 free when you deposit $10 using Promo Code: COVER1 Link: https://play.underdogfantasy.com/p-co... Great merch available through Cover 1 Affiliate partner Playbook Products below: https://bit.ly/2ETuWjS Cover 1 would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think! — Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT -Access to detailed Premium Content. -Access to our video library. -Access to our private Slack channel. -Sneak peek at upcoming content. -Exclusive group film room sessions. & much more. SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-conten... Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below. — DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP! ► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/de... ��� iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id15325... — ► Subscribe to our YouTube channel ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play — Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1. — — Follow Us Here Twitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/ Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/co... The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

Dave "Softy" Mahler from KJR AM 950 joins the show to talk Seahawks, and the crew discusses the latest defensive coordinator news. Remember to subscribe and toggle the bell icon to never miss a show. Go Seahawks. Follow us on Twitter! Brian Nemhauser: @hawkblogger Evan Hill: @EvanHillHB Nathan Ernst: @Nathane11 Jeff Simmons: @realjeffsimmons Dayna O'Gorman: @DaynaOG Real Hawk Talk: @realhawktalk Support the show on Patreon & get access to our private Slack channel: https://www.patreon.com/hawkblogger

The Seahawks fired Ken Norton Jr. today. Our crew reacts to the news and gives their choices for his successor. Remember to subscribe and toggle the bell icon to never miss a show. Go Seahawks. Follow us on Twitter! Brian Nemhauser: @hawkblogger Evan Hill: @EvanHillHB Nathan Ernst: @Nathane11 Jeff Simmons: @realjeffsimmons Dayna O'Gorman: @DaynaOG Real Hawk Talk: @realhawktalk Support the show on Patreon & get access to our private Slack channel: https://www.patreon.com/hawkblogger

We often hear investors tell the story about starting in single-family rentals and then quickly changing to multi-family properties to kick their growth into hyper-speed. But that transition is not always perfectly seamless. In this episode, Emil shares his struggle with one of his multi-family properties, and Michael helps him come up with a plan to solve his problem. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael album and today I'm joined by my co host,   Emil: Emil Shour.   Michael: And today, Emil and I gonna be talking about his real life debacle that he's in with his triplex and how he's going to be getting himself out of it. So let's get into it.   All right, well, a meal first and foremost, and to all of our listeners and watchers. Happy New Year. We're recording this a couple days after the first, you have a good celebration?   Emil: Happy New Years, my friend. Yes. I had some delicious I made some wagyu steak at home. We fired up the hot tub at our new house. So it was very mellow, but very relaxing and awesome new year. How about you, man?   Michael: Nice. It was great. I went with my wife to a friend's house out in Stinson Beach. California was just right on the water hanging out through the beach walking doing some paddle boarding so no complaints very relaxing.   Emil: Very good man.   Michael: So today earlier before this episode, you and I were chatting and you've got this triplex and it's given you some headache. And I know you've talked about the this particular triplex in the past but maybe never in this capacity. So if you could bring all of our listeners up to speed what's going on with this triplex?   Emil: Oh, man, so for anyone who's probably been listening to the show for a while they know the infamous triplex I'm sure you're tired of hearing about it. But this was a triplex I bought is my first foray into small multifamily. I bought this the end of 2020, November 2020. middle of last year, we had as planned some tenants move out, which was great. We wanted to do some work because it was pretty far under market rent. And so long story short, took us a couple months got the work done. And this one unit of mine has just been sitting vacant for a very long time.   I had a my previous pm who wasn't very good. They came to me and they said, all right. It's very diplomatic of you. We have it I have a new property manager as of late so we're seeing how they're doing. But this property manager, we finished everything, the leasing agent. I thought this this property could probably rent for or this unit would rent for somewhere in like the $600 neighborhood. He's like, No, the market has gone up a ton. It's really hot in St. Louis right now. I'm going to shoot for $850 and kind of raise a red flag, but I'm like, You know what, I think this will be a good test of this leasing agent. If they're confident it they can make it happen. I mean, who's gonna say no to 200-250 bucks more rent per month, right? Like, I was like,   Michael: Okay, and this was, this was the old pm?   Emil: This is the old property manager. Correct. Okay, so sir, a 50. Crickets, I think a month later. Yeah, go ahead.   Michael: Sorry. Emil, what was the rent when you bought it?   Emil: The rent on this unit was I think 485 or something.   Michael: Okay, so you did the Reno and then your projection of six to 650 was already a big jump, but they're saying, Okay, now maybe almost double.   Emil: Right. Right. They're saying, you know, okay, we've seen rents go up across the country. They, I think they just overshot it. But I was, again, testing, right property manager I've been working with for about six months, new leasing agent, let's see what they can do. Right, let's see if they can, I think these are all just things to test, right. I try to trust and enable my property manager as much as possible. So I just let them run with it sits there for about a month, nothing, not getting really any applications with decided lower to 800 nothing for another two, three weeks, we lower it to 725 as Keep going Keep going. We get down to I think 675 650. And it had been months and months. And it was just the same old story, you know, property. The leasing agent coming back to me every week, telling me oh, I'm confident we're gonna get it this week. And it's just crickets every week.   And so, at that point, you know, this property with with getting it rehabbed and being marketed, were at like, five, six months of no rents. And to me it was just a major, major red flag. Like we're in a hot market, it's true rent is going up, but they just can't execute. And so for me, it was a time to pull the trigger and find a new property manager. I like to move fast. I don't want to wait too long. I think I gave them enough chance and I just wasn't really happy with what they were doing. So I have since then moved to a new property manager, the beginning of December. We've been Marketing at 650. And we're getting kind of similar stuff.   What's interesting though, what the difference is here, this property manager, they no longer accepting voucher tenants, and they just have higher qualifications, which I'm okay with. I'm okay if we wait a little.   Michael: And what's a voucher tenant?   Emil: Voucher is Section Eight, someone who meets a certain income threshold where the city the local authority is helping them pay their rent.   Michael: Okay, so this Pm is not accepting those tenants.   Emil: Yeah, they've decided, I think this is recent, they decided they're no longer filling vacant units with voucher tenants. So okay, which is fine. I want them to manage, you know, I want them to do whatever they're comfortable with, they have 1200 plus units, they manage they know this game, so I'm letting them handle it.   So it's a new year, you know, December was slow the holidays, we didn't get much. And so now it's like, my leasing agent comes to me, he's like, I think we should be at 600. That seems where the market is, is telling us to be. And so, you know, this is just a rough spot for me where I'm like, What do I do here? I've tried multiple property managers. Is it my location? Is it the property like what's going on? And I, you know, I get different answers every week. But it's like, Man, I don't know. I'm curious if you've been in positions like this, what do you what have you done to get a tenant in place? Some additional background, I'd call this a classy property over 100 years old, you know, it's been, there's things have been fixed, but it hasn't gone like I didn't got rehab this place or anything special. So okay. That's the context.   Michael: All right. Well, I've got an answer for your question. But I'm gonna first answer it with a couple of more quality questions for you, my friend. So this Pm that you got rid of, because I think I know, I've been hearing a lot of stories like this from people both in the academy, and then just people, fellow investor, friends and colleagues that they're frustrated with their PM, and they don't know what to do, and they don't know how to approach a situation. So was this lack of getting a proper at least, like the final straw? The, the, the, the property manager had been kind of screwing up up to this point. And this was the straw that broke the camel's back, or, or was this kind of that first, second and third strike for you that said, Hey, I gotta I gotta make a move.   Emil: The rehab, I think was it went a lot longer than originally anticipated. I think that's every rehab, right? Like, every time you hear about that, it was just like, you know, I got pictures back. And the quality of my property managers telling me, oh, work was great, blah, blah, blah, I'm looking at the work. I'm like, yeah, it's okay. And it looks like we you know, we didn't pay. It wasn't the cheapest, but it wasn't the highest. I don't know, just, it was a couple things for me. But I would say the majority of it, it's the if you can't lease my place, like, how can I continue working with you? That was the majority of it, like, your leasing agent isn't doing their job? I can just keep a property with you. That's sitting two thirds vacant?   Michael: Yeah. Now it makes total sense. And so what was the physical process that you went through to get a new property manager? Was it a, let's have a discussion with the existing pm saying kind of an ultimatum, hey, if you can't do this, then this is the consequence? Or was it you know what I'm so fed up. And now I did this other stuff. So walk me through what you did.   Emil: I thought about saying, Guys, if you don't get this place rented by the end of whatever, like, I need to move on. My fear there is then I'm basically forcing their hand to find a terrible tenant, just to fill the place and keep my business. So I refused. I didn't want to set an ultimatum and then be in a worse situation a couple months down the road, I try to work with them. You know, I'm following up. I'm not like playing on the sidelines, like I'm getting regular updates. I'm trying to just hold them accountable as much as I can. And just seeing how they do things. And I I wasn't happy with it for months. And so for me, it was just time to move on. Try something new.   Michael: And so were you interviewing other PMS? Did you cut the cord before you found a new one? What was that process? Like?   Emil: You know, I talked to this was my second property manager in St. Louis. So I had been talking to some other property managers, there's people in the academy who you know, I chat with in Slack, and they tell me, Hey, you should check out so and so. It's funny, you talk to two different investors who've used the same property manager and you get a different story. And so I hadn't, I hadn't there was one backup I was thinking of, but I had mixed reviews about them. And then actually, you had a friend who was raving about a property manager they use in St. Louis. And I, you know, I was getting fed up like, Hey, man, just give them a call. So I called them we had a good conversation. They seem like they really knew their stuff and so, so further out has been great.   You know, the last property manager, I was using smaller team, which I was curious to see, like, you know, do I get a little bit more sway with them because they don't have 1000 plus units. But I think sometimes you find that their operations are lacking, or as this company 1200 Plus units, their operations are much tighter, I get answers faster. They have a person who like they have people who master a certain domain, not like you're wearing seven hats within the company, which is actually yeah, I think better personally.   Michael: Yeah. Makes total sense. Just, you know, why did you say you're so surprised? Like, can you have a friend like, what are you just like, pick? I don't have friends.   Emil: And what was funny, because you asked, and I'm like, Well, you know how this story ends? She told me about the property manager. You're asking me like, you don't know. But you know,   Michael: It's it's part of the ship, man, you know, it's for the pod. Alright, cool. That makes sense. And I think that's really good takeaway from from like a process standpoint, for anyone who is in a similar situation or feels like they might be in a similar situation with the property manager of being kind of fed up or having the the demerits accumulate. This is a pretty repeatable process that anyone can go through. And frankly, I think you should be interviewing property managers, as soon as you get an inkling of yours not working out, because you don't want to wait till after the fact you don't wanna be playing catch up, you want to be proactive and have a plan B, and possibly even C, for if and when that day ever does come that you're like, I'm done.   Emil: Yeah, I can tell you personally, every time I've started to have doubts about a person, a vendor, or whatever, and I try to work through it, it almost always doesn't work out. So I feel like once you have that gut feeling like things aren't working out. Like you said, you should be talking to other people as a backup, because I found it rarely works out.   Michael: Yeah. But so do you think then now having had that experience, you as soon as your next vendor, or relationship you get that gut feel? Are you going to cut the cord sooner? Or are you still going to try to kind of work through it to give people the benefit of the doubt?   Emil: I stupidly still give people benefit of the doubt and try to work through it. Because you know, I'm, I'm not like going to fire somebody at the first. A mess up is different to me than like, I don't feel like this is going to work out. Everyone messes up its account, a bit like, are they accountable? Do they have a plan for how to fix this? It's a matter of like, when people mess up and there's no accountability, and they're not. They don't have a game plan for how we're going to fix this or anything. Or they're just being vague. That's when I'm like, Okay, this is starting to give me red flags.   Michael: Yeah, makes total sense. And then just out of curiosity, when you ran this, the numbers on this property, how did it cash flow? I mean, what was your expected monthly cash flow?   Emil: I don't remember the number I can probably go dig it up. It was probably gonna, I think it was gonna be once we rehabbed it, you know, if I include all the rehab costs, as like, my cash in the property, we were probably going to cash on cash around 10%. I think it was   Michael: Okay. And so now the fact that this property or this unit, the middle or whatever, the the unit is vacant, are you negative cash flow every month? Are you still able to cover your costs?   Emil: Uh, that one we were okay with when it was offline, we have the bigger townhouse style of the triplex vacant. That's the moneymaker. Right? That one's like 1000 Plus that we're marketing it for right now. It was at like 850 or 900. Before. So with just the one bedroom that we were talking about just now, offline or vacant, we were okay. But now that two are are vacant. Yeah, we're, I'm coming out of pocket every month. Right now.   Michael: Okay. All right. And so is your property manager seeming confident that I can get the bigger unit rented out just as easily as the smaller one.   Emil: They I mean, when I'm looking around my like, on Zillow for in the area for a three bedroom apartment. There's nothing right now. So for me, it's a rough time because it's the new year. It's cold, usually in colder climates, tougher to get people moving, like people don't move as much during the winter. Plus, you also just had the holidays. So not a lot of people, not as many people are moving. But in looking at the landscape. Like within a half mile mile radius. There's literally no three bedrooms for rent. So anyone who needs some bigger space, we're looking pretty good. I just think it was a time of year. So I'm more optimistic about that one. I'm just this this one bed one bath is like, Man, when are we going to figure this one out?   Michael: Yeah. All right. Well, that's super good perspective and good background. So getting back to the crux of your question with you know, advice tips have ever been a situation before? Yes to all three. In April of 2020. So right when COVID was really hitting hard in the States, I was trying to rent out a freshly rehabbed four unit that I talked a lot about on prior episodes, which is like, Oh, my God, could you have picked a worse time to have four units have to come online. And like at a at a premium, they were really expensive units, because I put a ton of money into them, they're very high end, because when I started the rehab in 2019, that's the way things were going. And so things would have worked out quite well.   And so we just could not get these things rented for the life of us, my property manager, somebody your started high, and then brought them down low, which I was fine with, because they've been vacant for so long. So it's an extra three, four or five weeks to try to get them leased up. So it would came to a point where we were kind of at our bottom threshold of where we could be. And I said, Hey, let's start doing some some moving specials. 200 bucks off, 300 bucks off 400 bucks off per month to get someone to move in, just so it made that easier for them to get in the door.   Because I think that I think a lot of people forget myself included, is when you physically go move into a new property. There are a lot of expenses associated with doing that. So first and foremost, there's the physical cost of moving, if you're going to rent, some kind of assistance, whether that's movers or a truck, whatever, then there's a security deposit, which is usually at a minimum, one month's rent could be one and a half month's rent. And then you have first month's rent, and sometimes last month's rent. So depending on what the lease structure looks like, I mean, so for that $600 A month unit, you're looking at a minimum of 1200 bucks if they move themselves 600 bucks and in deposit 600 bucks for the first month's rent. And so if you could just make it a little bit easier on someone to move in, it can often go a long way towards actually getting the needle moving, so to speak.   And so we did this on, I think three of the four units. And we had people in there, I think within a month, which was pretty awesome. And so what I did is basically I just said, Okay, how much is this each unit? How much is it costing me on a daily basis in like last opportunity costs essentially. And so what I figured out is, look, if I can get someone here in here in two weeks versus a month, and I'm giving them 400 bucks off, I'm kind of picking numbers here at random. That's actually cheaper than if the thing sat vacant for an additional two weeks. And so I would encourage you to do the same thing and sit down and say, Okay, what can I stomach from a financial perspective? Forget the ego side. But put that aside, your ego is not your Amigo. And you know, what can you financially stomach and say, Okay, well, if I can get if I give that to a discount, and somebody just to get them in here is you know, that can often be a really good move.   Emil: Yeah. I have a question. Did you find that you guys weren't getting a lot of activity? And then you did that special? And you were? Because we're we're getting interest? We're just not getting qualified applicants. So did you guys have a like a traffic problem? Or was there a quality problem as well that your PM was like, No, we don't want these types of this tenant doesn't qualify before you?   Michael: I, I think it was both, I think but because they handle all the inbound leads. That's not something that I get too involved in. So I don't I don't really remember specifically. But I think it was both a traffic and a quality issue. But try it. I mean, worst case scenario, you still don't get any qualified tenants inside two weeks, and you take it down, and you go back to what you're doing originally. I don't think it it hurts to try.   Emil: Yeah, yeah, I should. I should just email my leasing agent. Honestly, I'm gonna do that right after this episode be like, Hey, let's do a $200 off special. And we should just time bound it right. Did you guys time bound to like move in before the end of January or? Yeah,   Michael: Exactly. Yep. To encourage encourage people to stuff like, Hey, here's a carrot to do something.   Emil: Right. Cool. I'm doing that right after we hit pause on this. Yeah, stop record. Right.   Michael: Yeah. Can you post it? I think little things to differentiate yourself too. Because I mean, there might be a bunch of other ones in the area for 600 bucks a month. Right? But if you can be different. And we all like to think that we're different because of whatever we did to the property physically, that we put in granite countertop, whatever, why couldn't someone see the value here, like, of course is a good deal. But we need to remove ourselves from the situation. And so yeah, often just giving a monetary instead of like money talks.   Emil: From these experiences, do you when you go into a vacancy, and when you're going to rent it out? Where do you like to be? Do you go market do you start a little high and come down if it doesn't work out? Where do you how do you start the game?   Michael: Yeah. So on these ones, we started definitely top of market because they were brand new. And so that didn't work out. So then we kept lowering and lowering and lowering. So I think that especially for for some of the markets that I'm in and in the price points for the rents that I'm in the difference between market and under market, like isn't a huge deal, right? You know, 50 bucks, maybe maybe 100 bucks versus what does that vacancy cost? In, in the amount of time it takes you to get that unit leased?   Emil: Right.   Michael: So it tends to be nominal. And so I'm happy being slightly under market, just to get bodies into the property qualified bodies into the property. But that's how I think about it. And then once someone's in there, I mean, it's much easier to keep someone and incrementally incrementally increase the rent, as opposed to trying to get someone in at a much higher rent. And so that's what we did on the on that four Plex is I knew that we were well under market. And so I got seven to 9% rent increases almost across the board on those units, because the rent went up, but it was still a great deal. So that's kind of how I think about it.   Emil: Yeah, I'm, I'm starting to feel the same way. Like if my property manager ever wants to go above, I'm going to say, no, I'd rather be at or slightly below and get someone who men turns are the worst vacancies are the, like, they crush you. So if you can be a little bit under I mean, I get it for commercial stuff. You know, every extra dollar you get of NOI it changes the value of the property, I get that. But in the single family and small multifamily space where things are run on comps, right? Like, I think getting rid of your vacant like having less vacancy, having someone just stay longer. I mean, I've seen it in my own portfolio, like the best performers are the ones where the tenants just don't move, and you slowly increase their rent, you know, maybe, maybe it's even small moves, nothing, maybe it's 2%, whatever it is, but like, making sure you don't have vacancies is like so key.   Michael: It's so so key. It's so key. And I mean to that point, too. And when it comes time for renewals, like you mentioned, think about even maybe not raising my rent, if someone's a really great tenant, what's it worth, it's you to keep them, right, 25 bucks a month, 30 bucks a month of what you might get in an increase. I think we need to sometimes get outside the spreadsheet, and just look holistically and say, okay, is this truly worth it?   Emil: No, Michael, my cash on cash will only be 8% instead of nine. And I'm not happy with that.   Michael: And my pro forma said nine.   Emil: That's right. And I want to tell people about my percentage on the spreadsheet. But let me tell you the percentages blow up real fast when you have a three to six month vacancy.   Michael: Yeah. So yeah, very, very fast.   Emli: So anyway, that's, that's what I've learned.   Michael: Awesome. We'll do this was like super insightful and great, I think, for a number of different reasons to talk about problems with PMS problems with leasing problems with rent setting. This is all really real world stuff. And it's not always butterflies and rosebuds, so I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing with us.   Emil: Absolutely. I mean, I like when people talk about this stuff, like the actual stuff going on instead of   Michael: The real stuff.   Emil: Yeah, instead of just, you know, it's always this we talk about all the time, this is this is part of the business, like you have to be good at dealing with problems. It's not, you know, just mailbox money all the time. That's not how it works. So I think people have more realistic expectations. It's easier to when you have those challenges to just work through them so…   Michael: Well, already when that was our episode, a big thanks to a meal for sharing. This was great, man. really insightful, really humanizing, you know, this is good. This is good. This is therapeutic. This is cathartic. It's good to talk about the crap stuff.   Emil: That's right. You gotta you gotta.   Michael: As always, if you liked the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is that you listen to podcast. We look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing.   Emil: Happy investing everyone.  

Welcome, one and all, to the latest episode of The Film Stage Show! Today, Brian Roan and Robyn Bahr are joined by a very special guest Evelyn Sideri, Robyn's former English teacher, to discuss Joel Coen's The Tragedy of Macbeth, now on Apple TV+ and in theaters. Enter our giveaways, get access to our private Slack channel, and support new episodes by becoming a Patreon contributor. For a limited time, all new Patreon supporters will receive a free Blu-ray/DVD. After becoming a contributor, e-mail podcast@thefilmstage.com for an up-to-date list of available films. The Film Stage Show is supported by MUBI, a curated streaming service showcasing exceptional films from around the globe. Every day, MUBI premieres a new film. Whether it's a timeless classic, a cult favorite, or an acclaimed masterpiece — it's guaranteed to be either a movie you've been dying to see or one you've never heard of before and there will always be something new to discover. Try it for free for 30 days at mubi.com/filmstage.

SUBSCRIBE TO SALES SECRETS PODCASTITUNES ► https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/s...​SPOTIFY ► https://open.spotify.com/show/1BKYsQo...​YOUTUBE ► https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVUh...​THIS EPISODE IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY SEAMLESS.AI - THE WORLD'S BEST SALES LEADSWEBSITE ► https://www.seamless.ai/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/seamlessai/JOIN FOR FREE TODAY ► https://login.seamless.ai/invite/podcastSHOW DESCRIPTIONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson, entrepreneur and founder of Seamless.AI. Twice a week, Brandon interviews the world's top sales experts like Jill Konrath, Aaron Ross, John Barrows, Trish Bertuzzi, Mark Hunter, Anthony Iannarino and many more -- to uncover actionable strategies, playbooks, tips and insights you can use to generate more revenue and close more business. If you want to learn the most powerful sales secrets from the top sales experts in the world, Sales Secrets From The Top 1% is the place to find them.SALES SECRET FROM THE TOP 1%WEBSITE ► https://www.secretsalesbook.com/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/sales-secret-book/ABOUT BRANDONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson (over $100M in sales deals), multi-million dollar sales tech entrepreneur, motivational sales speaker, international sales DJ (DJ NoQ5) and sales author who is obsessed with helping you maximize your sales success.Mr. Bornancin is currently the CEO & Founder at Seamless.ai delivering the world's best sales leads. Over 10,000+ companies use Seamless.ai to generate millions in sales at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Slack, Dell, Oracle & many others.Mr. Bornancin is also the author of "Sales Secrets From The Top 1%" where the world's best sales experts share their secrets to sales success and author of “The Ultimate Guide To Overcoming Sales Objections.”FOLLOW BRANDONLINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonbornancin/INSTAGRAM ► https://www.instagram.com/brandonbornancinofficial/FACEBOOK ► https://www.facebook.com/SeamlessAITWITTER ► https://twitter.com/BBornancin

About AndrewI create free cloud certification courses and somehow still make money.Links: ExamPro Training, Inc.: https://www.exampro.co/ PolyWork: https://www.polywork.com/andrewbrown LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-wc-brown Twitter: https://twitter.com/andrewbrown TranscriptAndrew: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief cloud economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Rising Cloud, which I hadn't heard of before, but they're doing something vaguely interesting here. They are using AI, which is usually where my eyes glaze over and I lose attention, but they're using it to help developers be more efficient by reducing repetitive tasks. So, the idea being that you can run stateless things without having to worry about scaling, placement, et cetera, and the rest. They claim significant cost savings, and they're able to wind up taking what you're running as it is in AWS with no changes, and run it inside of their data centers that span multiple regions. I'm somewhat skeptical, but their customers seem to really like them, so that's one of those areas where I really have a hard time being too snarky about it because when you solve a customer's problem and they get out there in public and say, “We're solving a problem,” it's very hard to snark about that. Multus Medical, Construx.ai and Stax have seen significant results by using them. And it's worth exploring. So, if you're looking for a smarter, faster, cheaper alternative to EC2, Lambda, or batch, consider checking them out. Visit risingcloud.com/benefits. That's risingcloud.com/benefits, and be sure to tell them that I said you because watching people wince when you mention my name is one of the guilty pleasures of listening to this podcast.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is… well, he's challenging to describe. He's the co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro Training, Inc. but everyone knows him better as Andrew Brown because he does so many different things in the AWS ecosystem that it's sometimes challenging—at least for me—to wind up keeping track of them all. Andrew, thanks for joining.Andrew: Hey, thanks for having me on the show, Corey.Corey: How do I even begin describing you? You're an AWS Community Hero and have been for almost two years, I believe; you've done a whole bunch of work as far as training videos; you're, I think, responsible for #100daysofcloud; you recently started showing up on my TikTok feed because I'm pretending that I am 20 years younger than I am and hanging out on TikTok with the kids, and now I feel extremely old. And obviously, you're popping up an awful lot of places.Andrew: Oh, yeah. A few other places like PolyWork, which is an alternative to LinkedIn, so that's a space that I'm starting to build up on there as well. Active in Discord, Slack channels. I'm just kind of everywhere. There's some kind of internet obsession here. My wife gets really mad and says, “Hey, maybe tone down the social media.” But I really enjoy it. So.Corey: You're one of those folks where I have this challenge of I wind up having a bunch of different AWS community Slacks and cloud community, Slacks and Discords and the past, and we DM on Twitter sometimes. And I'm constantly trying to figure out where was that conversational thread that I had with you? And tracking it down is an increasingly large search problem. I really wish that—forget the unified messaging platform. I want a unified search platform for all the different messaging channels that I'm using to talk to people.Andrew: Yeah, it's very hard to keep up with all the channels for myself there. But somehow I do seem to manage it, but just with a bit less sleep than most others.Corey: Oh, yeah. It's like trying to figure out, like, “All right, he said something really useful. What was that? Was that a Twitter DM? Was it on that Slack channel? Was it that Discord? No, it was on that brick that he threw through my window with a note tied to it. There we go.”That's always the baseline stuff of figuring out where things are. So, as I mentioned in the beginning, you are the co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro, which is interesting because unlike most of the community stuff that you do and are known for, you don't generally talk about that an awful lot. What's the deal there?Andrew: Yeah, I think a lot of people give me a hard time because they say, Andrew, you should really be promoting yourself more and trying to make more sales, but that's not why I'm out here doing what I'm doing. Of course, I do have a for-profit business called ExamPro, where we create cloud certification study courses for things like AWS, Azure, GCP, Terraform, Kubernetes, but you know, that money just goes to fuel what I really want to do, is just to do community activities to help people change their lives. And I just decided to do that via cloud because that's my domain expertise. At least that's what I say because I've learned up on in the last four or five years. I'm hoping that there's some kind of impact I can make doing that.Corey: I take a somewhat similar approach. I mean, at The Duckbill Group, we fixed the horrifying AWS bill, but I've always found that's not generally a problem that people tend to advertise having. On Twitter, like, “Oh, man, my AWS bill is killing me this month. I've got to do something about it,” and you check where they work, and it's like a Fortune 50. It's, yeah, that moves markets and no one talks about that.So, my approach was always, be out there, be present in the community, talk about this stuff, and the people who genuinely have billing problems will eventually find their way to me. That was always my approach because turning everything I do into a sales pitch doesn't work. It just erodes confidence, it reminds people of the used mattress salesman, and I just don't want to be that person in that community. My approach has always been if I can help someone with a 15-minute call or whatnot, yeah, let's jump on a phone call. I'm not interested in nickel-and-diming folks.Andrew: Yeah. I think that if you're out there doing a lot of hard work, and a lot of it, it becomes undeniable the value you're putting out there, and then people just will want to give you money, right? And for me, I just feel really bad about taking anybody's money, and so even when there's some kind of benefit—like my courses, I could charge for access for them, but I always feel I have to give something in terms of taking somebody's money, but I would never ask anyone to give me their money. So, it's bizarre. [laugh] so.Corey: I had a whole bunch of people a year or so after I started asking, like, “I really find your content helpful. Can I buy you a cup of coffee or something?” And it's, I don't know how to charge people a dollar figure that doesn't have a comma in it because it's easy for me to ask a company for money; that is the currency of effort, work, et cetera, that companies are accustomed to. People view money very differently, and if I ask you personally for money versus your company for money, it's a very different flow. So, my solution to it was to build the annual charity t-shirt drive, where it's, great, spend 35 bucks or whatever on a snarky t-shirt once a year for ten days and all proceeds go to benefit a nonprofit that is, sort of, assuaged that.But one of my business philosophies has always been, “Work for free before you work for cheap.” And dealing with individuals and whatnot, I do not charge them for things. It's, “Oh, can you—I need some advice in my career. Can I pay you to give me some advice?” “No, but you can jump on a Zoom call with me.” Please, the reason I exist at all is because people who didn't have any reason to did me favors, once upon a time, and I feel obligated to pay that forward.Andrew: And I appreciate, you know, there are people out there that you know, do need to charge for their time. Like—Corey: Oh. Oh, yes.Andrew: —I won't judge anybody that wants to. But you know, for me, it's just I can't do it because of the way I was raised. Like, my grandfather was very involved in the community. Like, he was recognized by the city for all of his volunteer work, and doing volunteer work was, like, mandatory for me as a kid. Like, every weekend, and so for me, it's just like, I can't imagine trying to take people's money.Which is not a great thing, but it turns out that the community is very supportive, and they will come beat you down with a stick, to give you money to make sure you keep doing what you're doing. But you know, I could be making lots of money, but it's just not my priority, so I've avoided any kind of funding so like, you know, I don't become a money-driven company, and I will see how long that lasts, but hopefully, a lot longer.Corey: I wish you well. And again, you're right; no shade to anyone who winds up charging for their time to individuals. I get it. I just always had challenges with it, so I decided not to do it. The only time I find myself begrudging people who do that are someone who picked something up six months ago and decided, oh, I'm going to build some video course on how to do this thing. The end. And charge a bunch of money for it and put myself out as an expert in that space.And you look at what the content they're putting out is, and one, it's inaccurate, which just drives me up a wall, and two, there's a lack of awareness that teaching is its own skill. In some areas, I know how to teach certain things, and in other areas, I'm a complete disaster at it. Public speaking is a great example. A lot of what I do on the public speaking stage is something that comes to me somewhat naturally. So, can you teach me to be a good public speaker? Not really, it's like, well, you gave that talk and it was bad. Could you try giving it only make it good? Like, that is not a helpful coaching statement, so I stay out of that mess.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, it's really challenging to know, if you feel like you're authority enough to put something out there. And there's been a few courses where I didn't feel like I was the most knowledgeable, but I produced those courses, and they had done extremely well. But as I was going through the course, I was just like, “Yeah, I don't know how any this stuff works, but this is my best guess translating from here.” And so you know, at least for my content, people have seen me as, like, the lens of AWS on top of other platforms, right? So, I might not know—I'm not an expert in Azure, but I've made a lot of Azure content, and I just translate that over and I talk about the frustrations around, like, using scale sets compared to AWS auto-scaling groups, and that seems to really help people get through the motions of it.I know if I pass, at least they'll pass, but by no means do I ever feel like an expert. Like, right now I'm doing, like, Kubernetes. Like, I have no idea how I'm doing it, but I have, like, help with three other people. And so I'll just be honest about it and say, “Hey, yeah, I'm learning this as well, but at least I know I passed, so you know, you can pass, too.” Whatever that's worth.Corey: Oh, yeah. Back when I was starting out, I felt like a bit of a fraud because I didn't know everything about the AWS billing system and how it worked and all the different things people can do with it, and things they can ask. And now, five years later, when the industry basically acknowledges I'm an expert, I feel like a fraud because I couldn't possibly understand everything about the AWS billing system and how it works. It's one of those things where the more you learn, the more you realize that there is yet to learn. I'm better equipped these days to find the answers to the things I need to know, but I'm still learning things every day. If I ever get to a point of complete and total understanding of a given topic, I'm wrong. You can always go deeper.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, by no means am I even an expert in AWS, though people seem to think that I am just because I have a lot of confidence in there and I produce a lot of content. But that's a lot different from making a course than implementing stuff. And I do implement stuff, but you know, it's just at the scale that I'm doing that. So, just food for thought for people there.Corey: Oh, yeah. Whatever, I implement something. It's great. In my previous engineering life, I would work on large-scale systems, so I know how a thing that works in your test environment is going to blow up in a production scale environment. And I bring those lessons, written on my bones the painful way, through outages, to the way that I build things now.But the stuff that I'm building is mostly to keep my head in the game, as opposed to solving an explicit business need. Could I theoretically build a podcast transcription system on top of Transcribe or something like that for these episodes? Yeah. But I've been paying a person to do this for many years to do it themselves; they know the terms of art, they know how this stuff works, and they're building a glossary as they go, and understanding the nuances of what I say and how I say it. And that is the better business outcome; that's the answer. And if it's production facing, I probably shouldn't be tinkering with it too much, just based upon where the—I don't want to be the bottleneck for the business functioning.Andrew: I've been spending so much time doing the same thing over and over again, but for different cloud providers, and the more I do, the less I want to go deep on these things because I just feel like I'm dumping all this information I'm going to forget, and that I have those broad strokes, and when I need to go deep dive, I have that confidence. So, I'd really prefer people were to build up confidence in saying, “Yes, I think I can do this.” As opposed to being like, “Oh, I have proof that I know every single feature in AWS Systems Manager.” Just because, like, our platform, ExamPro, like, I built it with my co-founder, and it's a quite a system. And so I'm going well, that's all I need to know.And I talk to other CTOs, and there's only so much you need to know. And so I don't know if there's, like, a shift between—or difference between, like, application development where, let's say you're doing React and using Vercel and stuff like that, where you have to have super deep knowledge for that technical stack, whereas cloud is so broad or diverse that maybe just having confidence and hypothesizing the work that you can do and seeing what the outcome is a bit different, right? Not having to prove one hundred percent that you know it inside and out on day one, but have the confidence.Corey: And there's a lot of validity to that and a lot of value to it. It's the magic word I always found in interviewing, on both sides of the interview table, has always been someone who's unsure about something start with, “I'm not sure, but if I had to guess,” and then say whatever it is you were going to say. Because if you get it right, wow, you're really good at figuring this out, and your understanding is pretty decent. If you're wrong, well, you've shown them how you think but you've also called them out because you're allowed to be wrong; you're not allowed to be authoritatively wrong. Because once that happens, I can't trust anything you say.Andrew: Yeah. In terms of, like, how do cloud certifications help you for your career path? I mean, I find that they're really well structured, and they give you a goal to work towards. So, like, passing that exam is your motivation to make sure that you complete it. Do employers care? It depends. I would say mostly no. I mean, for me, like, when I'm hiring, I actually do care about certifications because we make certification courses but—Corey: In your case, you're a very specific expression of this that is not typical.Andrew: Yeah. And there are some, like, cases where, like, if you work for a larger cloud consultancy, you're expected to have a professional certification so that customers feel secure in your ability to execute. But it's not like they were trying to hire you with that requirement, right? And so I hope that people realize that and that they look at showing that practical skills, by building up cloud projects. And so that's usually a strong pairing I'll have, which is like, “Great. Get the certifications to help you just have a structured journey, and then do a Cloud project to prove that you can do what you say you can do.”Corey: One area where I've seen certifications act as an interesting proxy for knowledge is when you have a company that has 5000 folks who work in IT in varying ways, and, “All right. We're doing a big old cloud migration.” The certification program, in many respects, seems to act as a bit of a proxy for gauging where people are on upskilling, how much they have to learn, where they are in that journey. And at that scale, it begins to make some sense to me. Where do you stand on that?Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it's hard because it really depends on how those paths are built. So, when you look at the AWS certification roadmap, they have the Certified Cloud Practitioner, they have three associates, two professionals, and a bunch of specialties. And I think that you might think, “Well, oh, solutions architect must be very popular.” But I think that's because AWS decided to make the most popular, the most generic one called that, and so you might think that's what's most popular.But what they probably should have done is renamed that Solution Architect to be a Cloud Engineer because very few people become Solutions Architect. Like that's more… if there's Junior Solutions Architect, I don't know where they are, but Solutions Architect is more of, like, a senior role where you have strong communications, pre-sales, obviously, the role is going to vary based on what companies decide a Solution Architect is—Corey: Oh, absolutely take a solutions architect, give him a crash course in finance, and we call them a cloud economist.Andrew: Sure. You just add modifiers there, and they're something else. And so I really think that they should have named that one as the cloud engineer, and they should have extracted it out as its own tier. So, you'd have the Fundamental, the Certified Cloud Practitioner, then the Cloud Engineer, and then you could say, “Look, now you could do developer or the sysops.” And so you're creating this path where you have a better trajectory to see where people really want to go.But the problem is, a lot of people come in and they just do the solutions architect, and then they don't even touch the other two because they say, well, I got an associate, so I'll move on the next one. So, I think there's some structuring there that comes into play. You look at Azure, they've really, really caught up to AWS, and may I might even say surpass them in terms of the quality and the way they market them and how they construct their certifications. There's things I don't like about them, but they have, like, all these fundamental certifications. Like, you have Azure Fundamentals, Data Fundamentals, AI Fundamentals, there's a Security Fundamentals.And to me, that's a lot more valuable than going over to an associate. And so I did all those, and you know, I still think, like, should I go translate those over for AWS because you have to wait for a specialty before you pick up security. And they say, like, it's intertwined with all the certifications, but, really isn't. Like—and I feel like that would be a lot better for AWS. But that's just my personal opinion. So.Corey: My experience with AWS certifications has been somewhat minimal. I got the Cloud Practitioner a few years ago, under the working theory of I wanted to get into the certified lounge at some of the events because sometimes I needed to charge things and grab a cup of coffee. I viewed it as a lounge pass with a really strange entrance questionnaire. And in my case, yeah, I passed it relatively easily; if not, I would have some questions about how much I actually know about these things. As I recall, I got one question wrong because I was honest, instead of going by the book answer for, “How long does it take to restore an RDS database from a snapshot?”I've had some edge cases there that give the wrong answer, except that's what happened. And then I wound up having that expire and lapse. And okay, now I'll do it—it was in beta at the time, but I got the sysops associate cert to go with it. And that had a whole bunch of trivia thrown into it, like, “Which of these is the proper syntax for this thing?” And that's the kind of question that's always bothered me because when I'm trying to figure things like that out, I have entire internet at my fingertips. Understanding the exact syntax, or command-line option, or flag that needs to do a thing is a five-second Google search away in most cases. But measuring for people's ability to memorize and retain that has always struck me as a relatively poor proxy for knowledge.Andrew: It's hard across the board. Like Azure, AWS, GCP, they all have different approaches—like, Terraform, all of them, they're all different. And you know, when you go to interview process, you have to kind of extract where the value is. And I would think that the majority of the industry, you know, don't have best practices when hiring, there's, like, a superficial—AWS is like, “Oh, if you do well, in STAR program format, you must speak a communicator.” Like, well, I'm dyslexic, so that stuff is not easy for me, and I will never do well in that.So like, a lot of companies hinge on those kinds of components. And I mean, I'm sure it doesn't matter; if you have a certain scale, you're going to have attrition. There's no perfect system. But when you look at these certifications, and you say, “Well, how much do they match up with the job?” Well, they don't, right? It's just Jeopardy.But you know, I still think there's value for yourself in terms of being able to internalize it. I still think that does prove that you have done something. But taking the AWS certification is not the same as taking Andrew Brown's course. So, like, my certified cloud practitioner was built after I did GCP, Oracle Cloud, Azure Fundamentals, a bunch of other Azure fundamental certifications, cloud-native stuff, and then I brought it over because was missing, right? So like, if you went through my course, and that I had a qualifier, then I could attest to say, like, you are of this skill level, right?But it really depends on what that testament is and whether somebody even cares about what my opinion of, like, your skillset is. But I can't imagine like, when you have a security incident, there's going to be a pop-up that shows you multiple-choice answer to remediate the security incident. Now, we might get there at some point, right, with all the cloud automation, but we're not there yet.Corey: It's been sort of thing we've been chasing and never quite get there. I wish. I hope I live to see it truly I do. My belief is also that the value of a certification changes depending upon what career stage someone is at. Regardless of what level you are at, a hiring manager or a company is looking for more or less a piece of paper that attests that they're to solve the problem that they are hiring to solve.And entry-level, that is often a degree or a certification or something like that in the space that shows you have at least the baseline fundamentals slash know how to learn things. After a few years, I feel like that starts to shift into okay, you've worked in various places solving similar problems on your resume that the type that we have—because the most valuable thing you can hear when you ask someone, “How would we solve this problem?” Is, “Well, the last time I solved it, here's what we learned.” Great. That's experience. There's no compression algorithm for experience? Yes, there is: Hiring people with experience.Then, at some level, you wind up at the very far side of people who are late-career in many cases where the piece of paper that shows that they know what they're doing is have you tried googling their name and looking at the Wikipedia article that spits out, how they built fundamental parts of a system like that. I think that certifications are one of those things that bias for early-career folks. And of course, partners when there are other business reasons to get it. But as people grow in seniority, I feel like the need for those begins to fall off. Do you agree? Disagree? You're much closer to this industry in that aspect of it than I am.Andrew: The more senior you are, and if you have big names under your resume there, no one's going to care if you have certification, right? When I was looking to switch careers—I used to have a consultancy, and I was just tired of building another failed startup for somebody that was willing to pay me. And I'm like—I was not very nice about it. I was like, “Your startup's not going to work out. You really shouldn't be building this.” And they still give me the money and it would fail, and I'd move on to the next one. It was very frustrating.So, closed up shop on that. And I said, “Okay, I got to reenter the market.” I don't have a computer science degree, I don't have big names on my resume, and Toronto is a very competitive market. And so I was feeling friction because people were not valuing my projects. I had, like, full-stack projects, I would show them.And they said, “No, no. Just do these, like, CompSci algorithms and stuff like that.” And so I went, “Okay, well, I really don't want to be doing that. I don't want to spend all my time learning algorithms just so I can get a job to prove that I already have the knowledge I have.” And so I saw a big opportunity in cloud, and I thought certifications would be the proof to say, “I can do these things.”And when I actually ended up going for the interviews, I didn't even have certifications and I was getting those opportunities because the certifications helped me prove it, but nobody cared about the certifications, even then, and that was, like, 2017. But not to say, like, they didn't help me, but it wasn't the fact that people went, “Oh, you have a certification. We'll get you this job.”Corey: Yeah. When I'm talking to consulting clients, I've never once been asked, “Well, do you have the certifications?” Or, “Are you an AWS partner?” In my case, no, neither of those things. The reason that we know what we're doing is because we've done this before. It's the expertise approach.I question whether that would still be true if we were saying, “Oh, yeah, and we're going to drop a dozen engineers on who are going to build things out of your environment.” “Well, are they certified?” is a logical question to ask when you're bringing in an external service provider? Or is this just a bunch of people you found somewhere on Upwork or whatnot, and you're throwing them at it with no quality control? Like, what is the baseline level experience? That's a fair question. People are putting big levels of trust when they bring people in.Andrew: I mean, I could see that as a factor of some clients caring, just because like, when I used to work in startups, I knew customers where it's like their second startup, and they're flush with a lot of money, and they're deciding who they want to partner with, and they're literally looking at what level of SSL certificate they purchased, right? Like now, obviously, they're all free and they're very easy to get to get; there was one point where you had different tiers—as if you would know—and they would look and they would say—Corey: Extended validation certs attend your browser bar green. Remember those?Andrew: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just like that, and they're like, “We should partner with them because they were able to afford that and we know, like…” whatever, whatever, right? So, you know, there is that kind of thought process for people at an executive level. I'm not saying it's widespread, but I've seen it.When you talk to people that are in cloud consultancy, like solutions architects, they always tell me they're driven to go get those professional certifications [unintelligible 00:22:19] their customers matter. I don't know if the customers care or not, but they seem to think so. So, I don't know if it's just more driven by those people because it's an expectation because everyone else has it, or it's like a package of things, like, you know, like the green bar in the certifications, SOC 2 compliance, things like that, that kind of wrap it up and say, “Okay, as a package, this looks really good.” So, more of an expectation, but not necessarily matters, it's just superficial; I'm not sure.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: You've been building out certifications for multiple cloud providers, so I'm curious to get your take on something that Forrest Brazeal, who's now head of content over at Google Cloud, has been talking about lately, the idea that as an engineer is advised to learn more than one cloud provider; even if you have one as a primary, learning how another one works makes you a better engineer. Now, setting aside entirely the idea that well, yeah, if I worked at Google, I probably be saying something fairly similar.Andrew: Yeah.Corey: Do you think there's validity to the idea that most people should be broad across multiple providers, or do you think specialization on one is the right path?Andrew: Sure. Just to contextualize for our listeners, Google Cloud is highly, highly promoting multi-cloud workloads, and one of their flagship products is—well, they say it's a flagship product—is Anthos. And they put a lot of money—I don't know that was subsidized, but they put a lot of money in it because they really want to push multi-cloud, right? And so when we say Forrest works in Google Cloud, it should be no surprise that he's promoting it.But I don't work for Google, and I can tell you, like, learning multi-cloud is, like, way more valuable than just staying in one vertical. It just opened my eyes. When I went from AWS to Azure, it was just like, “Oh, I'm missing out on so much in the industry.” And it really just made me such a more well-rounded person. And I went over to Google Cloud, and it was just like… because you're learning the same thing in different variations, and then you're also poly-filling for things that you will never touch.Or like, I shouldn't say you never touch, but you would never touch if you just stayed in that vertical when you're learning. So, in the industry, Azure Active Directory is, like, widespread, but if you just stayed in your little AWS box, you're not going to notice it on that learning path, right? And so a lot of times, I tell people, “Go get your CLF-C01 and then go get your AZ-900 or AZ-104.” Again, I don't care if people go and sit the exams. I want them to go learn the content because it is a large eye-opener.A lot of people are against multi-cloud from a learning perspective because say, it's too much to learn all at the same time. But a lot of people I don't think have actually gone across the cloud, right? So, they're sitting from their chair, only staying in one vertical saying, “Well, you can't learn them all at the same time.” And I'm going, “I see a way that you could teach them all at the same time.” And I might be the first person that will do it.Corey: And the principles do convey as well. It's, “Oh, well I know how SNS works on AWS, so I would never be able to understand how Google Pub/Sub works.” Those are functionally identical; I don't know that is actually true. It's just different to interface points and different guarantees, but fine. You at least understand the part that it plays.I've built things out on Google Cloud somewhat recently, and for me, every time I do, it's a refreshing eye-opener to oh, this is what developer experience in the cloud could be. And for a lot of customers, it is. But staying too far within the bounds of one ecosystem does lend itself to a loss of perspective, if you're not careful. I agree with that.Andrew: Yeah. Well, I mean, just the paint more of a picture of differences, like, Google Cloud has a lot about digital transformation. They just updated their—I'm not happy that they changed it, but I'm fine that they did that, but they updated their Google Digital Cloud Leader Exam Guide this month, and it like is one hundred percent all about digital transformation. So, they love talking about digital transformation, and those kind of concepts there. They are really good at defining migration strategies, like, at a high level.Over to Azure, they have their own cloud adoption framework, and it's so detailed, in terms of, like, execution, where you go over to AWS and they have, like, the worst cloud adoption framework. It's just the laziest thing I've ever seen produced in my life compared to out of all the providers in that space. I didn't know about zero-trust model until I start using Azure because Azure has Active Directory, and you can do risk-based policy procedures over there. So, you know, like, if you don't go over to these places, you're not going to get covered other places, so you're just going to be missing information till you get the job and, you know, that job has that information requiring you to know it.Corey: I would say that for someone early career—and I don't know where this falls on the list of career advice ranging from, “That is genius,” to, “Okay, Boomer,” but I would argue that figuring out what companies in your geographic area, or the companies that you have connections with what they're using for a cloud provider, I would bias for learning one enough to get hired there and from there, letting what you learn next be dictated by the environment you find yourself in. Because especially larger companies, there's always something that lives in a different provider. My default worst practice is multi-cloud. And I don't say that because multi-cloud doesn't exist, and I'm not saying it because it's a bad idea, but this idea of one workload—to me—that runs across multiple providers is generally a challenge. What I see a lot more, done intelligently, is, “Okay, we're going to use this provider for some things, this other provider for other things, and this third provider for yet more things.” And every company does that.If not, there's something very strange going on. Even Amazon uses—if not Office 365, at least exchange to run their email systems instead of Amazon WorkMail because—Andrew: Yeah.Corey: Let's be serious. That tells me a lot. But I don't generally find myself in a scenario where I want to build this application that is anything more than Hello World, where I want it to run seamlessly and flawlessly across two different cloud providers. That's an awful lot of work that I struggle to identify significant value for most workloads.Andrew: I don't want to think about securing, like, multiple workloads, and that's I think a lot of friction for a lot of companies are ingress-egress costs, which I'm sure you might have some knowledge on there about the ingress-egress costs across providers.Corey: Oh, a little bit, yeah.Andrew: A little bit, probably.Corey: Oh, throwing data between clouds is always expensive.Andrew: Sure. So, I mean, like, I call multi-cloud using multiple providers, but not in tandem. Cross-cloud is when you want to use something like Anthos or Azure Arc or something like that where you extend your data plane or control pla—whatever the plane is, whatever plane across all the providers. But you know, in practice, I don't think many people are doing cross-cloud; they're doing multi-cloud, like, “I use AWS to run my primary workloads, and then I use Microsoft Office Suite, and so we happen to use Azure Active Directory, or, you know, run particular VM machines, like Windows machines for our accounting.” You know?So, it's a mixed bag, but I do think that using more than one thing is becoming more popular just because you want to use the best in breed no matter where you are. So like, I love BigQuery. BigQuery is amazing. So, like, I ingest a lot of our data from, you know, third-party services right into that. I could be doing that in Redshift, which is expensive; I could be doing that in Azure Synapse, which is also expensive. I mean, there's a serverless thing. I don't really get serverless. So, I think that, you know, people are doing multi-cloud.Corey: Yeah. I would agree. I tend to do things like that myself, and whenever I see it generally makes sense. This is my general guidance. When I talk to individuals who say, “Well, we're running multi-cloud like this.” And my response is, “Great. You're probably right.”Because I'm talking in the general sense, someone building something out on day one where they don't know, like, “Everyone's saying multi-cloud. Should I do that?” No, I don't believe you should. Now, if your company has done that intentionally, rather than by accident, there's almost certainly a reason and context that I do not have. “Well, we have to run our SaaS application in multiple cloud providers because that's where our customers are.” “Yeah, you should probably do that.” But your marketing, your billing systems, your back-end reconciliation stuff generally does not live across all of those providers. It lives in one. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I think we're in violent agreement here.Andrew: Oh, sure, yeah. I mean, Kubernetes obviously is becoming very popular because people believe that they'll have a lot more mobility, Whereas when you use all the different managed—and I'm still learning Kubernetes myself from the next certification I have coming out, like, study course—but, you know, like, those managed services have all different kind of kinks that are completely different. And so, you know, it's not going to be a smooth process. And you're still leveraging, like, for key things like your database, you're not going to be running that in Kubernetes Cluster. You're going to be using a managed service.And so, those have their own kind of expectations in terms of configuration. So, I don't know, it's tricky to say what to do, but I think that, you know, if you have a need for it, and you don't have a security concern—like, usually it's security or cost, right, for multi-cloud.Corey: For me, at least, the lock-in has always been twofold that people don't talk about. More—less lock-in than buy-in. One is the security model where IAM is super fraught and challenging and tricky, and trying to map a security model to multiple providers is super hard. Then on top of that, you also have the buy-in story of a bunch of engineers who are very good at one cloud provider, and that skill set is not in less demand now than it was a year ago. So okay, you're going to start over and learn a new cloud provider is often something that a lot of engineers won't want to countenance.If your team is dead set against it, there's going to be some friction there and there's going to be a challenge. I mean, for me at least, to say that someone knows a cloud provider is not the naive approach of, “Oh yeah, they know how it works across the board.” They know how it breaks. For me, one of the most valuable reasons to run something on AWS is I know what a failure mode looks like, I know how it degrades, I know how to find out what's going on when I see that degradation. That to me is a very hard barrier to overcome. Alternately, it's entirely possible that I'm just old.Andrew: Oh, I think we're starting to see some wins all over the place in terms of being able to learn one thing and bring it other places, like OpenTelemetry, which I believe is a cloud-native Kubernetes… CNCF. I can't remember what it stands for. It's like Linux Foundation, but for cloud-native. And so OpenTelemetry is just a standardized way of handling your logs, metrics, and traces, right? And so maybe CloudWatch will be the 1.0 of observability in AWS, and then maybe OpenTelemetry will become more of the standard, right, and so maybe we might see more managed services like Prometheus and Grafa—well, obviously, AWS has a managed Prometheus, but other things like that. So, maybe some of those things will melt away. But yeah, it's hard to say what approach to take.Corey: Yeah, I'm wondering, on some level, whether what the things we're talking about today, how well that's going to map forward. Because the industry is constantly changing. The guidance I would give about should you be in cloud five years ago would have been a nuanced, “Mmm, depends. Maybe for yes, maybe for no. Here's the story.” It's a lot less hedge-y and a lot less edge case-y these days when I answer that question. So, I wonder in five years from now when we look back at this podcast episode, how well this discussion about what the future looks like, and certifications, and multi-cloud, how well that's going to reflect?Andrew: Well, when we look at, like, Kubernetes or Web3, we're just seeing kind of like the standardized boilerplate way of doing a bunch of things, right, all over the place. This distributed way of, like, having this generic API across the board. And how well that will take, I have no idea, but we do see a large split between, like, serverless and cloud-natives. So, it's like, what direction? Or we'll just have both? Probably just have both, right?Corey: [Like that 00:33:08]. I hope so. It's been a wild industry ride, and I'm really curious to see what changes as we wind up continuing to grow. But we'll see. That's the nice thing about this is, worst case, if oh, turns out that we were wrong on this whole cloud thing, and everyone starts exodusing back to data centers, well, okay. That's the nice thing about being a small company. It doesn't take either of us that long to address the reality we see in the industry.Andrew: Well, that or these cloud service providers are just going to get better at offering those services within carrier hotels, or data centers, or on your on-premise under your desk, right? So… I don't know, we'll see. It's hard to say what the future will be, but I do believe that cloud is sticking around in one form or another. And it basically is, like, an essential skill or table stakes for anybody that's in the industry. I mean, of course, not everywhere, but like, mostly, I would say. So.Corey: Andrew, I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. If people want to learn more about your opinions, how you view these things, et cetera. Where can they find you?Andrew: You know, I think the best place to find me right now is Twitter. So, if you go to twitter.com/andrewbrown—all lowercase, no spaces, no underscores, no hyphens—you'll find me there. I'm so surprised I was able to get that handle. It's like the only place where I have my handle.Corey: And we will of course put links to that in the [show notes 00:34:25]. Thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Andrew: Well, thanks for having me on the show.Corey: Andrew Brown, co-founder and cloud instructor at ExamPro Training and so much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment telling me that I do not understand certifications at all because you're an accountant, and certifications matter more in that industry.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Shaan Puri (@shaanVP) and Sam Parr (@theSamParr) discuss FarmCon 2022, how Shaan got Covid, tech startup ideas for the farmer economy, how to develop value and a sense of mystique in your personal brand, and much more.  _____ * Do you love MFM and want to see Sam and Shaan's smiling faces? Subscribe to our Youtube channel. * Want more insights like MFM? Check out Shaan's newsletter. _____ Show Notes: (00:18) - Should babies pick their own name? (02:50) - Shaan gets Covid (08:22) - How to have Slack meetings (10:15) - FarmCon and business ideas for the farm economy (51:20) - How to create personal brand equity (59:00) - Sam's short term rental crew (01:01:15) - Steady.capital (01:06:22) - American Kingpin (01:11:50) - Announcing the winner of the clips contest ----- Past guests on My First Million include Rob Dyrdek, Hasan Minhaj, Balaji Srinivasan, Jake Paul, Dr. Andrew Huberman, Gary Vee, Lance Armstrong, Sophia Amoruso, Ariel Helwani, Ramit Sethi, Stanley Druckenmiller, Peter Diamandis, Dharmesh Shah, Brian Halligan, Marc Lore, Jason Calacanis, Andrew Wilkinson, Julian Shapiro, Kat Cole, Codie Sanchez, Nader Al-Naji, Steph Smith, Trung Phan, Nick Huber, Anthony Pompliano, Ben Askren, Ramon Van Meer, Brianne Kimmel, Andrew Gazdecki, Scott Belsky, Moiz Ali, Dan Held, Elaine Zelby, Michael Saylor, Ryan Begelman, Jack Butcher, Reed Duchscher, Tai Lopez, Harley Finkelstein, Alexa von Tobel, Noah Kagan, Nick Bare, Greg Isenberg, James Altucher, Randy Hetrick and more. ----- Additional episodes you might enjoy: • #224 Rob Dyrdek - How Tracking Every Second of His Life Took Rob Drydek from 0 to $405M in Exits • #209 Gary Vaynerchuk - Why NFTS Are the Future • #178 Balaji Srinivasan - Balaji on How to Fix the Media, Cloud Cities & Crypto #169 - How One Man Started 5, Billion Dollar Companies, Dan Gilbert's Empire, & Talking With Warren Buffett • ​​​​#218 - Why You Should Take a Think Week Like Bill Gates • Dave Portnoy vs The World, Extreme Body Monitoring, The Future of Apparel Retail, "How Much is Anthony Pompliano Worth?", and More • How Mr Beast Got 100M Views in Less Than 4 Days, The $25M Chrome Extension, and More

ASK FANTIListener Michael wants advice about an uncomfortable assignment a professor has given him and fellow students in a college class on the history of imperialism and nationalism in Africa.Listener FeedbackJo wrote it with a request for Tre'vell & Jarrett to share their thoughts on the “I don't see color” argument made by white people like Tomi Lahren.DIS/Honorable Mentions Jarrett:HM: Tiffany Johnson for getting nominated for an NAACP Image Award in the category Outstanding Directing in a Comedy SeriesHM: Belated Happy Birthday to Michelle ObamaTre'vell:DM: Jessica Watkins, who proves that trans people can be trash, too. She is a former Oath Keeper and one of the domestic terrorists who stormed the ccapital on Jan 6. Black History Is Happening EverydayWe recognize Madison Butler, who recently launched The Black Speakers Collection as a way to close the speaker pay gapOur Sponsor This WeekBrooklinenFANTI listeners can get $20 off their purchase of $100, by using code FANTIGo ahead and @ usEmail: FANTI@maximumfun.orgIG@FANTIpodcast@Jarrett Hill@rayzon (Tre'Vell)Twitter@FANTIpodcast@TreVellAnderson@JarrettHill@Swish (Senior Producer Laura Swisher)FANTI is produced and distributed by MaximumFun.orgLaura Swisher is senior producer Episode Contributors: Jarrett Hill, Laura Swisher, Tre'Vell AndersonMusic: Cor.ece

Diese Folge als Video schauen Aus der Preshow: 9 Leute im Slack, Bleibt das Bild?, organisierte Show Heute mit: Klostergeister, Lego, Drohnen, Leaks, Fast immer dienstags, gerne mal um 18:00 Uhr: Happy Shooting Live. Täglich im Slack mitmachen – auch Audio-/Videokommentare werden gern angenommen. Danke an Friedemann, Andre, Uwe, Peter, Benjamin und alle Spender für … „#745 – Zungenschleckfotos“ weiterlesen Der Beitrag #745 – Zungenschleckfotos ist ursprünglich hier erschienen: Happy Shooting - Der Foto-Podcast.

Aaron & Greg are joined by BLEAV Podcast host Joe Valerio to preview the Divisional Round Playoff match-up between the Buffalo Bills and the Kansas City Chiefs presented by Uncle Jumbos & BookSeats.comGuest - Joe ValerioTwitter - @JoeValerio73Buffalo Bills Kansas City Chiefs PreviewLaunching new sponsorship with BookSeats.comCustom flight, hotel & ticket packages to every event #BillsMafia represents!All travel options available at:https://bookseats.com/nfl-travel-packages/buffalo-billsPresenting Sponsor - Uncle Jumbo'shttps://www.unclejumbosdistillery.com/Segment Sponsor - West Herr Auto Grouphttps://www.westherr.com/Theme song written & performed by Handsome Jackhttp://www.handsomejackmusic.com/Great merch available through Cover 1 Affiliate partner Playbook Products below:https://bit.ly/2ETuWjSCover 1 would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think!—Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT-Access to detailed Premium Content.-Access to our video library.-Access to our private Slack channel.-Sneak peek at upcoming content.-Exclusive group film room sessions.& much more.SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-content-plans/Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below.—DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP!► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.coverapp► iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1532587486—► Subscribe to our YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClL6eJS1s8xmRoYRQbYgxQQ?sub_confirmation=1► Subscribe to our Cover 1 Network channel - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cover-1-sports/id1370162953—Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1.—Follow Us HereTwitter: https://twitter.com/Cover1Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/cover-1The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

Aaron & Greg are joined by BLEAV Podcast host Joe Valerio to preview the Divisional Round Playoff match-up between the Buffalo Bills and the Kansas City Chiefs presented by Uncle Jumbos & BookSeats.com Guest - Joe Valerio Twitter - @JoeValerio73 Buffalo Bills Kansas City Chiefs Preview Launching new sponsorship with BookSeats.com Custom flight, hotel & ticket packages to every event #BillsMafia represents! All travel options available at: https://bookseats.com/nfl-travel-packages/buffalo-bills Presenting Sponsor - Uncle Jumbo's https://www.unclejumbosdistillery.com/ Segment Sponsor - West Herr Auto Group https://www.westherr.com/ Theme song written & performed by Handsome Jack http://www.handsomejackmusic.com/ Great merch available through Cover 1 Affiliate partner Playbook Products below: https://bit.ly/2ETuWjS Cover 1 would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think! — Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT -Access to detailed Premium Content. -Access to our video library. -Access to our private Slack channel. -Sneak peek at upcoming content. -Exclusive group film room sessions. & much more. SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-content-plans/ Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below. — DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP! ► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.coverapp ► iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1532587486 — ► Subscribe to our YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClL6eJS1s8xmRoYRQbYgxQQ?sub_confirmation=1 ► Subscribe to our Cover 1 Network channel - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cover-1-sports/id1370162953 — Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1. — Follow Us Here Twitter: https://twitter.com/Cover1 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/ Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/cover-1 The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

RADIO SAFE VERSION - PROOF that the Sacred Scribe, the OverMan, and the The SubGenius Foundation chief officers in general are still alive and well, almost like “Bob” himself! On Jan. 18 “2022,” on his way to do some consulting at an arms conference, Dr. Philo Drummond himself choppered in to the helipad at Stang Ranch to do some Show recording with Rev. Stang and Princess Wei ‘R' Doe in Tarzan's Radio Station at Fossil House. As planned, the supernatural Blessings of Dobbs, a few goat rides, and some great Mexican food at Los Primos drove the old Doktors into Spouting mode, resulting in this hour of pure revealed wisdom and divine trivia. http://subgenius.com

PROOF that the Sacred Scribe, the OverMan, and the The SubGenius Foundation chief officers in general are still alive and well, almost like “Bob” himself! On Jan. 18 “2022,” on his way to do some consulting at an arms conference, Dr. Philo Drummond himself choppered in to the helipad at Stang Ranch to do some Show recording with Rev. Stang and Princess Wei ‘R' Doe in Tarzan's Radio Station at Fossil House. As planned, the supernatural Blessings of Dobbs, a few goat rides, and some great Mexican food at Los Primos drove the old Doktors into Spouting mode, resulting in this hour of pure revealed wisdom and divine trivia. http://subgenius.com

Buffalo Bills vs Kansas City Chiefs Divisional Round Matchup Preview In this episode of Disguised Coverage from Cover 1, Anthony Prohaska is joined by Matt Lane of the KC Sports Network to break down the most important matchups that will decide the Divisional Round battle between the Buffalo Bills & Kansas City Chiefs Presenting Sponsor - One Pie Pizza https://www.onepiepizza.com/menu/ Tell them Cover 1 and Disguised Coverage sent you!! Catch the "Buffalo Bills vs New England Patriots Wild Card Preview w/ Bruce Nolan" episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arp0L... Twitter: https://twitter.com/Pro__Ant​​​​​​ Fantasy Sponsor - Underdog Fantasy Get $10 free when you deposit $10 using Promo Code: COVER1 Link: https://play.underdogfantasy.com/p-co... Great merch available through Cover 1 Affiliate partner Playbook Products below: https://bit.ly/2ETuWjS Cover 1 would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think! — Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT -Access to detailed Premium Content. -Access to our video library. -Access to our private Slack channel. -Sneak peek at upcoming content. -Exclusive group film room sessions. & much more. SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-conten... Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below. — DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP! ► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/de... ��� iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id15325... — ► Subscribe to our YouTube channel ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play — Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1. — — Follow Us Here Twitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/ Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/co... The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

On this episode, Russell Brown is joined by Connor Rogers of Bleacher Report to talk all things 2022 NFL Draft. Some NFL Draft topics the guys discuss: - Four of our favorite players from the Shrine Bowl - Our Jets and Lions are at the Senior Bowl. What do we think of their rosters? - What do the Jets do with two picks in the top-10? - All that and more! Russ gives his opinion on that and more on Cover 1 | Draft Podcast! Be sure to follow Russ on Twitter: @RussNFLDraft We would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think!—Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT-Access to detailed Premium Content.-Access to our video library.-Access to our private Slack channel.-Sneak peek at upcoming content.-Exclusive group film room sessions.& much more.SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-content-plans/Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below.—DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP!► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.coverapp► iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cover-1/id1355302955?mt=8—► Subscribe to our YouTube channel► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play—Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1.——Follow Us HereTwitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/cover-1The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

On this episode, Russell Brown is joined by Connor Rogers of Bleacher Report to talk all things 2022 NFL Draft. Some NFL Draft topics the guys discuss: - Four of our favorite players from the Shrine Bowl - Our Jets and Lions are at the Senior Bowl. What do we think of their rosters? - What do the Jets do with two picks in the top-10? - All that and more! Russ gives his opinion on that and more on Cover 1 | Draft Podcast! Be sure to follow Russ on Twitter: @RussNFLDraft We would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think! — Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT -Access to detailed Premium Content. -Access to our video library. -Access to our private Slack channel. -Sneak peek at upcoming content. -Exclusive group film room sessions. & much more. SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-content-plans/ Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below. — DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP! ► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.coverapp ► iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cover-1/id1355302955?mt=8 — ► Subscribe to our YouTube channel ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play — Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1. — — Follow Us Here Twitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/ Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/cover-1 The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

What if plants could tell us when pests are attacking them, or they're too dry, or they need more fertilizer. One startup is gene engineering farm plants so they can communicate in in fluorescent colors. The result: a farmer's phone, drone, or even satellite imagery can reveal what is happening in hundreds of acres of fields … That leads to better food, fewer crop failures, and more revenue for farmers. In this TechFirst with John Koetsier we meet Shely Aronov, CEO and founder at InnerPlant, and chat about what plants say, and how farmers can understand their messages. Links: Innerplant: https://innerplant.com Support TechFirst with $SMRT coins: https://rally.io/creator/SMRT/ Buy $SMRT to join a community focused on tech for good: the emerging world of smart matter. Access my private Slack, get your name in my book, suggest speakers for TechFirst ... and support my work. TechFirst transcripts: https://johnkoetsier.com/category/tech-first/ Forbes columns: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/ Full videos: https://www.youtube.com/c/johnkoetsier?sub_confirmation=1 Keep in touch: https://twitter.com/johnkoetsier

SUBSCRIBE TO SALES SECRETS PODCASTITUNES ► https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/s...​SPOTIFY ► https://open.spotify.com/show/1BKYsQo...​YOUTUBE ► https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVUh...​THIS EPISODE IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY SEAMLESS.AI - THE WORLD'S BEST SALES LEADSWEBSITE ► https://www.seamless.ai/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/seamlessai/JOIN FOR FREE TODAY ► https://login.seamless.ai/invite/podcastSHOW DESCRIPTIONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson, entrepreneur and founder of Seamless.AI. Twice a week, Brandon interviews the world's top sales experts like Jill Konrath, Aaron Ross, John Barrows, Trish Bertuzzi, Mark Hunter, Anthony Iannarino and many more -- to uncover actionable strategies, playbooks, tips and insights you can use to generate more revenue and close more business. If you want to learn the most powerful sales secrets from the top sales experts in the world, Sales Secrets From The Top 1% is the place to find them.SALES SECRET FROM THE TOP 1%WEBSITE ► https://www.secretsalesbook.com/LINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/sales-secret-book/ABOUT BRANDONBrandon Bornancin is a serial salesperson (over $100M in sales deals), multi-million dollar sales tech entrepreneur, motivational sales speaker, international sales DJ (DJ NoQ5) and sales author who is obsessed with helping you maximize your sales success.Mr. Bornancin is currently the CEO & Founder at Seamless.ai delivering the world's best sales leads. Over 10,000+ companies use Seamless.ai to generate millions in sales at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Slack, Dell, Oracle & many others.Mr. Bornancin is also the author of "Sales Secrets From The Top 1%" where the world's best sales experts share their secrets to sales success and author of “The Ultimate Guide To Overcoming Sales Objections.”FOLLOW BRANDONLINKEDIN ► https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonbornancin/INSTAGRAM ► https://www.instagram.com/brandonbornancinofficial/FACEBOOK ► https://www.facebook.com/SeamlessAITWITTER ► https://twitter.com/BBornancin

About ShirShir Tamari is the Head of Research of Wiz, the cloud security company. He is an experienced security and technology researcher specializing in vulnerability research and practical hacking. In the past, he served as a consultant to a variety of security companies in the fields of research, development and product.About SagiSagi Tzadik is a security researcher in the Wiz Research Team. Sagi specializes in research and exploitation of web applications vulnerabilities, as well as network security and protocols. He is also a Game-Hacking and Reverse-Engineering enthusiast.About NirNir Ohfeld is a security researcher from Israel. Nir currently does cloud-related security research at Wiz. Nir specializes in the exploitation of web applications, application security and in finding vulnerabilities in complex high-level systems.Links: Wiz: https://www.wiz.io Cloud CVE Slack channel: https://cloud-cve-db.slack.com/join/shared_invite/zt-y38smqmo-V~d4hEr_stQErVCNx1OkMA Wiz Blog: https://wiz.io/blog Twitter: https://twitter.com/wiz_io TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Rising Cloud, which I hadn't heard of before, but they're doing something vaguely interesting here. They are using AI, which is usually where my eyes glaze over and I lose attention, but they're using it to help developers be more efficient by reducing repetitive tasks. So, the idea being that you can run stateless things without having to worry about scaling, placement, et cetera, and the rest. They claim significant cost savings, and they're able to wind up taking what you're running as it is in AWS with no changes, and run it inside of their data centers that span multiple regions. I'm somewhat skeptical, but their customers seem to really like them, so that's one of those areas where I really have a hard time being too snarky about it because when you solve a customer's problem and they get out there in public and say, “We're solving a problem,” it's very hard to snark about that. Multus Medical, Construx.ai and Stax have seen significant results by using them. And it's worth exploring. So, if you're looking for a smarter, faster, cheaper alternative to EC2, Lambda, or batch, consider checking them out. Visit risingcloud.com/benefits. That's risingcloud.com/benefits, and be sure to tell them that I said you because watching people wince when you mention my name is one of the guilty pleasures of listening to this podcast.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. One of the joyful parts of working with cloud computing is that you get to put a whole lot of things you don't want to deal with onto the shoulders of the cloud provider you're doing business with—or cloud providers as the case may be, if you fallen down the multi-cloud well. One of those things is often significant aspects of security. And that's great, right, until it isn't. Today, I'm joined by not one guest, but rather three coming to us from Wiz, which I originally started off believing was, oh, it's a small cybersecurity research group. But they're far more than that. Thank you for joining me, and could you please introduce yourself?Shir: Yes, thank you, Corey. My name is Shir, Shir Tamari. I lead the security research team at Wiz. I working in the company for the past year. I'm working with these two nice teammates.Nir: Hi, my name is Nir Ohfield,. I'm a security researcher at the Wiz research team. I've also been working for the Wiz research team for the last year. And yeah.Sagi: I'm Sagi, Sagi Tzadik. I also work for the Wiz research team for the last six months.Corey: I want to thank you for joining me. You folks really burst onto the scene earlier this year, when I suddenly started seeing your name come up an awful lot. And it brought me back to my childhood where there was an electronics store called Nobody Beats the Wiz. It was more or less a version of Fry's on a different coast, and they went out of business and oh, good. We're going back in time. And suddenly it felt like I was going back in time in a different light because you had a number of high profile vulnerabilities that you had discovered, specifically in the realm of Microsoft Azure. The two that leap to mind the most readily for me are ChaosDB and the OMIGOD exploits. There was a third as well, but why don't you tell me, in your own words, what it is that you discovered and how that played out?Shir: We, sort of, found the vulnerabilities in Microsoft Azure. We did report multiple vulnerabilities also in GCP, and AWS. We had multiple vulnerabilities in AWS [unintelligible 00:02:42] cross-account. It was a cross-account access to other tenants; it just was much less severe than the ChaosDB vulnerability that we will speak on more later. And a both we've present in Blackhat in Vegas in [unintelligible 00:02:56]. So, we do a lot of research. You mentioned that we have a third one. Which one did you refer to?Corey: That's a good question because you had the I want to say it was called as Azurescape, and you're doing a fantastic job with branding a number of your different vulnerabilities, but there's also, once you started reporting this, a lot of other research started coming out as well from other folks. And I confess, a lot of it sort of flowed together and been very hard to disambiguate, is this a systemic problem; is this, effectively, a whole bunch of people piling on now that their attention is being drawn somewhere; or something else? Because you've come out with an awful lot of research in a short period of time.Shir: Yeah, we had a lot of good research in the past year. It's a [unintelligible 00:03:36] mention Azurecape was actually found by a very good researcher in Palo Also. And… do you remember his name?Sagi: No, I can't recall his name is.Corey: Yeah, they came out of unit 42 as I recall, their cybersecurity division. Every tech company out there seems to have some sort of security research division these days. What I think is, sort of, interesting is that to my understanding, you were founded, first and foremost, as a security company. You're not doing this as an ancillary to selling something else like a firewall, or, effectively, you're an ad comp—an ad tech company like Google, we you're launching Project Zero. You are first and foremost aimed at this type of problem.Shir: Yes. Wiz is not just a small research company. It's actually pretty big company with over 200 employees. And the purpose of this product is a cloud security suite that provides [unintelligible 00:04:26] scanning capabilities in order to find risks in cloud environments. And the research team is a very small group. We are [unintelligible 00:04:35] researchers.We have multiple responsibilities. Our first responsibility is to find risks in cloud environments: It could be misconfigurations, it could be vulnerabilities in libraries, in software, and we add those findings and the patterns we discover to the product in order to protect our customers, and to allow them for new risks. Our second responsibility is also to do a community research where we research everyone vulnerabilities in public products and cloud providers, and we share our findings with the cloud providers, then also with the community to make the cloud more secure.Corey: I can't shake the feeling that if there weren't folks doing this sort of research and shining a light on what it is that the cloud providers are doing, if they were to discover these things at all, they would very quietly, effectively, fix it in the background and never breathe a word of it in public. I like the approach that you're taking as far as dragging it, kicking and screaming, into the daylight, but I also have to imagine that probably doesn't win you a whole lot of friends at the company that you're focusing on at any given point in time. Because whenever you talk to a company about a security issue, it seems like the first thing they're concerned about is, “Okay, how do we wind up spinning this or making sure that we minimize the reputational damage?” And then there's a secondary reaction of, “Oh, and how do we protect our customers? But mostly, how do we avoid looking bad as a result?” And I feel like that's an artifact of corporate culture these days. But it feels like the relationship has got to be somewhat interesting to navigate from your perspective.Shir: So, once we found a vulnerability and we discuss it with the vendor, okay, first, I will mention that most cloud providers have a bug bounty program where they encourage researchers to find vulnerabilities and to discover new security threats. And all of them, as a public disclosure, [unintelligible 00:06:29] program will researchers are welcome and get safe harbor, you know, where the disclosure vulnerabilities. And I think it's, like, common interest, both for customers, but for researchers, and the cloud providers to know about those vulnerabilities, to mitigate it down. And we do believe that sometimes cloud providors does resolve and mitigate vulnerabilities behind the scenes, and we know—we don't know for sure, but—I don't know about everything, but just by the vulnerabilities that we find, we assume that there is much more of them that we never heard about. And this is something that we believe needs to be changed in the industry.Cloud providers should be more transparent, they should show more information about the result vulnerabilities. Definitely when a customer data was accessible, or where it was at risk, or at possible risk. And this is actually—it's something that we actually trying to change in the industry. We have a community and, like, innovative community. It's like an initiative that we try to collect, we opened a Slack channel called the Cloud CVE, and we try to invite as much people as we can that concern about cloud's vulnerabilities, in order to make a change in the industry, and to assist cloud providers, or to convince cloud providers to be more transparent, to enumerate cloud vulnerabilities so they have an identifier just, like cloud CVE, like a CVE, and to make the cloud more protected and more transparent customers.Corey: The thing that really took me aback by so much of what you found is that we've become relatively accustomed to a few patterns over the past 15 to 20 years. For example, we're used to, “Oh, this piece of software you run on your desktop has a horrible flaw. Great.” Or this thing you run in your data center, same story; patch, patch, patch, patch patch. That's great.But there was always the sense that these were the sorts of things that were sort of normal, but the cloud providers were on top of things, where they were effectively living up to their side of the shared responsibility bargain. And that whenever you wound up getting breached, for whatever reason—like in the AWS world, where oh, you wound up losing a bunch of customer data because you had an open S3 bucket? Well, yeah, that's not really something you can hang super effectively around the neck of the cloud provider, given that you're the one that misconfigured that. But what was so striking about what you found with both of the vulnerabilities that we're talking about today, the customer could have done everything absolutely correctly from the beginning and still had their data exposed. And that feels like it's something relatively new in the world of cloud service providers.Is this something that's been going on for a while and we're just now shining a light on it? Have I just missed a bunch of interesting news stories where the clouds have—“Oh, yeah, by the way, people, we periodically have to go in and drag people out of our cloud control plane because oops-a-doozy, someone got in there again with the squirrels,” or is this something that is new?Shir: So, we do see an history other cases where probability [unintelligible 00:09:31] has disclosed vulnerabilities in the cloud infrastructure itself. There was only few, and usually, it was—the research was conducted by independent researchers. And I don't think it had such an impact, like ChaosDB, which allowed [cross-system 00:09:51] access to databases of other customers, which was a huge case. And so if it wasn't a big story, so most people will not hear about it. And also, independent researchers usually don't have the back that we have here in Wiz.We have a funding, we have the marketing division that help us to get coverage with reporters, who make sure to make—if it's a big story, we make sure that other people will hear about it. And I believe that in most bug bounty programs where independent researchers find vulnerabilities, usually they more care about the bounty than the aftereffect of stopping the vulnerability, sharing it with the community. Usually also, independent [unintelligible 00:10:32] usually share the findings with the research community. And the research community is relatively small to the IT community. So, it is new, but it's not that new.There was some events back in history, [unintelligible 00:10:46] similar vulnerabilities. So, I think that one of the points here is that everyone makes a mistake. You can find bugs which affected mostly, as you mentioned previously, this software that you installed on your desktop has bugs and you need to patch it, but in the case of cloud providers, when they make mistakes, when they introduce bugs to the service, it affects all of their customers. And this is something that we should think about. So, mistakes that are being made by cloud providers have a lot of impact regarding their customers.Corey: Yeah. It's not a story of you misconfigured, your company's SAN, so you're the one that was responsible for a data breach. It's suddenly, you're misconfiguring everyone's SAN simultaneously. It's the sheer scale and scope of what it is that they've done. And—Shir: Yeah, exactly.Corey: —I'm definitely on board with that. But the stuff I've seen in the past, from cloud providers—AWS, primarily, since that is admittedly where I tend to focus most of my time and energy—has been privilege escalation style stuff, where, okay, if you assign some users at your company—or wherever—access to this managed IAM policy, well, they'll have suddenly have access to things that go beyond the scope of that. And that's not good, let's be very clear on that, but it is a bit different between that and oh, by the way, suddenly, someone in another company that has no relationship established with you at all can suddenly rummage through your data that you're storing in Cosmos DB, their managed database offering. That's the thing to me that I think was the big head-turning aspect of this, not just for me, but for a number of folks I've spoken to, in financial services, in government, in a bunch of environments where data privacy is not optional in the same way that it is when, you know, you're running a social media for pets app.Nir: [laugh]. Yeah, but the thing is, that until the publication of ChaosDB, no one ever heard about the [unintelligible 00:12:40] data tampering in any cloud providers. Meaning maybe in six months, you can see a similar vulnerabilities in other cloud providers that maybe other security research groups find. So yeah, so Azure was maybe the first, but we don't think they will be the last.Shir: Yes. And also, when we do the community research, it is very important to us to take big targets. We enjoy the research. One day, the research will be challenging and we want to do something that it was new and great, so we always put a very big targets. To actually find vulnerability in the infrastructure of the cloud provider, it was very challenging for us.When didn't came ChaosDB by that; we actually found it by mistake. But now we think actively that this is our next goal is to find vulnerabilities in the infrastructure and not just vulnerabilities that affect only the—vulnerabilities within the account itself, like [unintelligible 00:13:32] or bad scoped policies that affects only one account.Corey: That seems to be the transformative angle that you don't see nearly as much in existing studies around vulnerabilities in this space. It's always the, “Oh, no. We could have gotten breached by those people across the hallway from us in our company,” as opposed to folks on the other side of the planet. And that is, I guess, sort of the scary thing. What has also been interesting to me, and you obviously have more experience with this than I do, but I have a hard time envisioning that, for example, AWS, having a vulnerability like this and not immediately swinging into disaster firefighting mode, sending their security execs on a six month speaking tour to explain what happened, how it got there, all of the steps that they're taking to remediate this, but Azure published a blog post explaining this in relatively minor detail: Here are the mitigations you need to take, and as far as I can tell, then they sort of washed their hands of the whole thing and have enthusiastically begun saying absolutely nothing since.And that I have learned is sort of fairly typical for Microsoft, and has been for a while, where they just don't talk about these things when it arises. Does that match your experience? Is this something that you find that is common when a large company winds up being, effectively, embarrassed about their security architecture, or is this something that is unique to Microsoft tends to approach these things?Shir: I would say in general, we really like the Microsoft MSRC team. The group in Microsoft that's responsible for handling vulnerabilities, and I think it's like the security division inside Microsoft, MSRC. So, we have a really good relationship and we had really good time working with them. They're real professionals, they take our findings very seriously. I can tell that in the ChaosDB incident, they didn't plan to publish a blog post, and they did that after the story got a lot of attention.So, I'm looking at a PR team, and I have no idea out there decide stuff and what is their strategy, but as I mentioned earlier, we believe that there is much more cloud vulnerabilities that we never heard of, and it should change; they should publish more.Nir: It's also worth mentioning that Microsoft acted really quick on this vulnerability and took it very seriously. They issued the fix in less than 48 hours. They were very transparent in the entire procedure, and we had multiple teams meeting with them. The entire experience was pretty positive with each of the vulnerability we've ever reported to Microsoft.Sagi: So, it's really nice working with the guys that are responsible for security, but regarding PR, I agree that they should have posted more information regarding this incident.Corey: The thing that I found interesting about this, and I've seen aspects of it before, but never this strongly is, I was watching for, I guess, what I would call just general shittiness, for lack of a better term, from the other providers doing a happy dance of, “Aha, we're better than you are,” and I saw none of that. Because when I started talking to people in some depth at this at other companies, the immediate response—not just AWS, to be clear—has been no, no, you have to understand, this is not good for anyone because this effectively winds up giving fuel to the slow-burning fire of folks who are pulling the, “See, I told you the cloud wasn't secure.” And now the enterprise groundhog sees that shadow and we get six more years of building data centers instead of going to the cloud. So, there's no one in the cloud space who's happy with this kind of revelation and this type of vulnerability. My question for you is given that you are security researchers, which means you are generally cynical and pessimistic about almost everything technological, if you're like most of the folks in that space that I've spent time with, is going with cloud the wrong answer? Should people be building their own data centers out? Should they continue to be going on this full cloud direction? I mean, what can they do if everything's on fire and terrible all the time?Shir: So, I think that there is a trade-off when you embrace the cloud. On one hand, you get the fastest deployment times, and a good scalability regarding your infrastructure, but on the other end, when there is a security vulnerability in the cloud provider, you are immediately affected. But it is worth mentioning that the security teams or the cloud providers are doing extremely good job. Most likely, they are going to patch the vulnerability faster than it would have been patched in on-premise environment. And it's good that you have them working for you.And once the vulnerability is mitigated—depends on the vulnerability but in the case of ChaosDB—when the vulnerability was mitigated on Microsoft's end, and it was mitigated completely. No one else could have exploited after the mitigated it once. Yes, it's also good to mention that the cloud provides organization and companies a lot of security features, [unintelligible 00:18:34] I want to say security features, I would say, it provides a lot of tooling that helps security. The option to have one interface, like one API to control all of my devices, to get visibility to all of my servers, to enforce policies very easily, it's much more secure than on-premise environments, where there is usually a big mess, a lot of vendors.Because the power was in the on-prem, the power was on the user, so the user had a lot of options. Usually used many types of software, many types of hardware, it's really hard to mitigate the software vulnerability in on-prem environments. It's really helped to get the visibility. And the cloud provides a lot of security, like, a good aspects, and in my opinion, moving to the cloud for most organization would be a more secure choice than remain on-premise, unless you have a very, very small on-prem environment.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: The challenge I keep running into is that—and this is sort of probably the worst of all possible reasons to go with cloud, but let's face it, when us-east-1 recently took an outage and basically broke a decent swath of the internet, a lot of companies were impacted, but they didn't see their names in the headlines; it was all about Amazon's outage. There's a certain value when a cloud provider takes an outage or a security breach, that the headlines screaming about it are about the provider, not about you and your company as a customer of that provider. Is that something that you're seeing manifest across the industry? Is that an unhealthy way to think about it? Because it feels almost like it's cheating in a way. It's, “Yeah, we had a security problem, but so did the entire internet, so it's okay.”Nir: So, I think that if there would be evidence that these kind of vulnerabilities were exploited while disclosure, then you wouldn't see headlines of companies, shouting in the headlines. But in the case of the us reporting the vulnerabilities prior to anyone exploiting them, results in nowhere a company showing up in the headlines. I think it's a slightly different situation than an outage.Shir: Yeah, but also, when one big provider have an outage or a breach, so usually, the customers will think it's out of my responsibility. I mean, it's bad; my data has been leaked, but what can I do? I think it's very easy for most people to forgive companies [unintelligible 00:21:11]. I mean, you know what, it's just not my area. So, maybe I'm not answer that into that. [laugh].Corey: No, no, it's very fair. The challenge I have, as a customer of all of these providers, to be honest, is that a lot of the ways that the breach investigations are worded of, “We have seen no evidence that this has been exploited.” Okay, that simultaneously covers the two very different use cases of, “We have pored through our exhaustive audit logs and validated that no one has done this particular thing in this particular way,” but it also covers the use case, “Of, hey, we learned we should probably be logging things, but we have no evidence that anything was exploited.” Having worked with these providers at scale, my gut impression is that they do in fact, have fairly detailed logs of who's doing what and where. Would you agree with that assessment, or do you find that you tend to encounter logging and analysis gaps as you find these exploits?Shir: We don't really know. Usually when—I mean, ChaosDB scenario, we got access to a Jupyter Notebook. And from the Jupyter Notebook, we continued to another internal services. And we—nobody stopped us. Nobody—we expected an email, like—Corey: “Whatcha doing over there, buddy?”Shir: Yeah. “Please stop doing that, and we're investigating you.” And we didn't get any. And also, we don't really know if they monitor it or not. I can tell from my technical background that logging so many environments, it's hard.And when you do decide to log all these events, you need to decide what to log. For example, if I have a database, a managed database, do I log all the queries that customers run? It's too much. If I have an HTTP application—a managed HTTP application—do I save all the access logs, like all the requests? And if so, what will be the retention time? For how long?We believe that it's very challenging on the cloud provider side, but it just an assumption. And doing the discussion with Microsoft, the didn't disclose any, like, scenarios they had with logging. They do mention that they're [unintelligible 00:23:26] viewing the logs and searching to see if someone exploited this vulnerability before we disclosed it. Maybe someone discovered before we did. But they told us they didn't find anything.Corey: One last area I'd love to discuss with you before we call it an episode is that it's easy to view Wiz through the lens of, “Oh, we just go out and find vulnerabilities here and there, and we make companies feel embarrassed—rightfully so—for the things that they do.” But a little digging shows that you've been around for a little over a year as a publicly known entity, and during that time, you've raised $600 million in funding, which is basically like what in the world is your pitch deck where you show up to investors and your slides are just, like, copies of their emails, and you read them to them?[laugh]I mean, on some level, it seems like that is a… as-, astounding amount of money to raise in a short period of time. But I've also done a little bit of digging, and to be clear, I do not believe that you have an extortion-based business model, which is a good thing. You're building something very interesting that does in-depth analysis of cloud workloads, and I think it's got an awful lot of promise. How does the vulnerability research that you do tie into that larger platform, other than, let's be honest, some spectacularly effective marketing.Sagi: Specifically in the ChaosDB vulnerability, we were actually not looking for a vulnerability in the cloud service providers. We were originally looking for common misconfigurations that our customers can make when they set up their Cosmos DB accounts, so that our product will be able to alert our customers regarding such misconfigurations. And then we went to the Azure portal and started to enable all of the features that Cosmos DB has to offer, and when we enabled enough features, we noticed some feature that could be vulnerable, and we started digging into it. And we ended up finding ChaosDB.But our original work was to try and find misconfigurations that our customers can make in order to protect them and not to find a vulnerability in the [CSP 00:25:31]. This was just, like, a byproduct of this research.Shir: Yes. There is, as I mentioned earlier, our main responsibility is to add a little security rist content to the product, to help customers to find new security risks in their environment. As you mentioned, like, the escalation possibilities within cloud accounts, and bad scoped policies, and many other security risks that are in the cloud area. And also, we are a very small team inside a big company, so most of the company, they are doing heavy [unintelligible 00:26:06] and talk with customers, they understand the risks, they understand the market, what the needs for tomorrow, and maybe we are well known for our vulnerabilities, but it just a very small part of the company.Corey: On some level, it says wonderful things about your product, and also terrifying things from different perspectives of, “Oh, yeah, we found one of the worst cloud breaches in years by accident,” as opposed to actively going in trying to find the thing that has basically put you on the global map of awareness around these things. Because there a lot of security companies out there doing different things. In fact, go to RSA, and you'll see basically 12 companies that just repeated over and over and over with different names and different brandings, and they're all selling some kind of firewall. This is something actively different because everyone can tell beautiful pictures with slides and whatnot, and the corporate buzzwords. You're one of those companies that actually did something meaningful, and it felt almost like a proof of concept. On some level, the fact that you weren't actively looking for it is kind of an amazing testament for the product itself.Shir: Yeah. We actually used the product in the beginning, in order to overview our own environment, and what is the most common services we use. In order—and we usually we mix this information with our product managers, know to understand what customers use and what products and services we need to research in order to bring value to the product.Sagi: Yeah, so the reason we chose to research Cosmos DB was that, we found that a lot of our Azure customers are using Cosmos DB on their production environments, and we wanted to add mitigations for common misconfigurations to our product in order to protect our customers.Nir: Yeah, the same goes with our other research, like OMIGOD, where we've seen that there is a excessive amount of [unintelligible 00:27:56] installations in an Azure environment, and it raised our [laugh] it raised our attention, and then found this vulnerability. It's mostly, like, popularity-guided research. [laugh].Shir: Yeah. And also [unintelligible 00:28:11] mention that maybe we find vulnerabilities by accident, but the service, we are doing vulnerability itself for the past ten years, and even more. So, we are very professional and this is what we do, and this is what we like to do. And we came skilled to the [crosstalk 00:28:25].Corey: It really is neat to see, just because every other security tool that I've looked at in recent memory tells you the same stuff. It's the same problem you see in the AWS billing space that I live in. Everyone says, “Oh, we can find these inactive instances that could be right-sized.” Great, because everyone's dealing with the same data. It's the security stuff is no different. “Hey, this S3 bucket is open.” Yes, it's a public web server. Please stop waking me up at two in the morning about it. It's there by design.But it goes back and forth with the same stuff just presented differently. This is one of the first truly novel things I've seen in ages. If nothing else, you convince me to kick the tires on it, and see what kind of horrifying things I can learn about my own environments with it.Shir: Yeah, you should. [laugh]. Let's poke [unintelligible 00:29:13].[laugh].Corey: I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. If people want to learn more about the research you're up to and the things that you find interesting, where can they find you all?Shir: Most of our publication—I mean, all of our publications are under the Wiz, which is wiz.io/blog, and people can read all of our research. Just today we are announcing a new one, so feel free to go and read there. And they also feel free to approach us on Twitter, the service, we have a Twitter account. We are open for, like, messages. Just send us a message.Corey: And we will certainly put links to all of that in the [show notes 00:29:49]. Shir, Sagi, Nir, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your time.Shir: Thank you.Sagi: Thank you.Nir: Thank you much.Shir: It was very fun. Yeah.Corey: This has been Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry insulting comment from someone else's account.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

00:36 - Panelist Consulting Experience and Backgrounds * Debugging Your Brain by Casey Watts (https://www.debuggingyourbrain.com/) * Happy and Effective (https://www.happyandeffective.com/) 10:00 - Marketing, Charging, and Setting Prices * Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/) * Chelsea's Blog (https://chelseatroy.com/) * Self-Worth by Salary 28:34 - GeePawHill Twitter Thread (https://twitter.com/GeePawHill/status/1478950180904972293) - Impact Consulting * Casey's Spreadsheet - “Matrix-Based Prioritization For Choosing a Job” (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qVrWOKPe3ElXJhOBS8egGIyGqpm6Fk9kjrFWvB92Fpk/edit#gid=1724142346) * Interdependence (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/interdependence) 38:43 - Management & Mentorship * Detangling the Manager: Supervisor, Team Lead, Mentor (https://dev.to/endangeredmassa/detangling-the-manager-supervisor-team-lead-mentor-gha) * Adrienne Maree Brown (https://adriennemareebrown.net/) 52:15 - Explaining Value and Offerings * The Pumpkin Plan: A Simple Strategy to Grow a Remarkable Business in Any Field by Mike Michalowicz (https://www.amazon.com/Pumpkin-Plan-Strategy-Remarkable-Business/dp/1591844886) * User Research * SPIN Selling: Situation Problem Implication Need-payoff by Neil Rackham (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/833015.SPIN_Selling) 55:08 - Ideal Clients Reflections: Mae: The phrase “indie”. Casey: Having a Patreon to help inspire yourself. Chelsea: Tallying up all of the different things that a given position contributes to in terms of a person's needs. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: CHELSEA: Welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 267. I'm Chelsea Troy, and I'm here with my co-host, Mae. MAE: And also with us is Casey. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey. And today's episode, we are our own guests. We're going to be talking to you about our experiences in consulting. To get this one started, how about we share what got us into consulting and what we like, don't like about it, just high-level? Chelsea, would you mind going first? CHELSEA: Sure. So I started in consulting, really in a full-time job. So for early in my programming career, I worked for several years for a company called Pivotal Labs and Pivotal Labs is chiefly, or was chiefly at the time, a software engineering consulting organization. My job was to pair program with folks from client teams, various types of clients, a lot of health insurance companies. At the time, there was a restaurant loyalty app that we did some work for. We did some work for General Motors, various clients, a major airline was also a client, and I would switch projects every three to six months. During that time employed by Labs, I would work for this client, pair programming with other pivots, and also with client developers. So that was my introduction to consulting and I think that it made the transition to consulting later, a little bit easier because I already had some consulting experience from under the Labs' umbrella. After I worked for Labs, I moved on to working at a product company for about 2 years and my experience at that product company burned me out on full-time programming for a little while. So in my last couple of months at that job, I realized that I was either going to have to take some time off, or I was going to have to find an arrangement that worked better for me for work, at least for the next little while. And for that next little while, what I decided I wanted to try to do was work part-time because I was uncomfortable with the idea of taking time off from programming completely. I felt that I was too early in my career and the skill loss would be too great if I took time off completely, but I knew I needed some space and so, I quit my full-time job. After I quit the full time—I probably should have done this before I quit the job, but I didn't—I called an organization that I had previously done some volunteer work with, with whom I discussed a job a couple of years prior, but for a couple of different reasons, it didn't work out. I said to them, “I know that you're a grant-funded organization and you rarely have the funding and capacity to bring somebody on, but just so you're aware, I like working with you. I love your product. I love the stuff that you work on. All our time working together, I've really enjoyed. So if you have an opening, I'm going to have some time available.” The director there emailed me that same day and said, “Our mobile developer put in his two weeks' notice this morning. So if you have time this afternoon, I'd really like to talk to you,” [chuckles] and that was my first client and they were a part-time client. I still work with them. I love working with them. I would consider them kind of my flagship client. But then from there, I started to kind of pick up more clients and it took off from there after that summer. I spent that summer generally working 3 days a week for that client and then spending 4 days a week lying face down in a park in the sun. That helped me recover a little bit from burnout. And then after that, I consulted full-time for about 2 years and I still consult on the side of a full-time job. So that's my story. Is anyone feeling a penchant for going next? MAE: I can go. I've been trying to think how am I going to say this succinctly. I've had at least two jobs and several club, or organization memberships, or founding, or positions since I was 16. So wherever I go, I've always been saying, “Well, I've done it these 47 ways already [laughs] even since I was a teenager.” So I've sort of always had a consulting orientation to take a broader view and figure out ways in which we can systematize whatever it is that's happening around me. Specifically for programming, I had been an administrator, like an executive leader, for many years. I just got tired of trying to explain what we as administrators needed and I just wanted to be able to build the things. I was already a really big Microsoft access person and anybody who just got a little [laughs] snarky in there knows I love Microsoft Access. It really allowed me to be able to offer all kinds of things to, for example, I was on the board of directors of my Kiwanis Club and I made a member directory and attendance tracker and all these things. Anyway, when I quit my executive job and went to code school in 2014, I did it because I knew that I could build something a lot better than this crazy Access database [laughs] that I had, this very involved ETL things going on in. I had a nonprofit that I had been involved with for 15 years at that point and I had also taken a database class where I modeled this large database that I was envisioning. So I had a bunch of things in order. I quit my full-time job and went to an income of $6,500 my first year and I hung with that flagship customer for a while and tailored my software. So I sort of have this straddling of a SaaS situation and a consulting situation. I embed into whoever I'm working with and help them in many ways. Often, people need lots of different levels of coaching, training, and skills development mixed with just a place to put things that makes sense to them. I think that's the brief version [laughs] that I can come up with and that is how I got where I am and I've gone in and out of also having a full-time job. Before I quit that I referenced the first year I worked a full-time job plus at least 40 to a 100 hours on my software to get it ready for prime time. So a lot of, a lot of work. CASEY: Good story. I don't think I ever heard these fuller stories from either of you, even though I know roughly the shape of your past. It's so cool to hear it. Thanks for sharing them. All right, I'll share about me now. So I've been a developer, a PM, and I've done a lot of design work. I've done all the roles over my time in tech. I started doing programming 10, 15 years ago, and I'm always getting burnt out everywhere I go because I care so much and we get asked to do things that seem dumb. I'm sure anyone listening can relate to this in some organization and when I say dumb, I don't use that word myself directly. I'm quoting a lot of people who would use that word, but I say either we're being asked to do things that don't make sense, aren't good ideas, or there are things that are we're being asked to do that would make sense if we knew why and it's not being communicated really well. It's poor communication. Either one, the other, or both. So after a lot of jobs, I end up taking a 3-month sabbatical and I'm like, “Whatever, I got to go. I can't deal with caring so much anymore, and I'm not willing to care less either.” So most recently, I took a sabbatical and I finished my book, Debugging Your Brain, which takes together psychology ideas, like cognitive behavioral therapy and programming ideas and that, I'm so proud of. If you haven't read it yet, please check it out. Then I went back to my job and I gave them another month where I was like, “All right, look, these are things need to change for me to be happy to work here.” Nothing changed, then I left. Maybe it's changing very slowly, but too slowly for me to be happy there, or most of these past companies. [laughs] After I left, this last sabbatical, I spent three to six months working on a board game version of my book. That's a lot of fun. And then I decided I needed more income, I needed to pay the bills, and I can totally be a tech consultant if I just deal with learning marketing and sales. That's been my… probably six months now, I've been working on the marketing in sales part, thinking a lot about it. I have a lot of support from a lot of friends. Now I consult on ways to make teams happier and more effective and that's my company name, Happy and Effective. I found it really easy to sell workshops, like diversity, equity, and inclusion workshops to HR departments. They're pretty hungry for those kinds of workshops and it's hard to find good, effective facilitators. It's a little bit harder to get companies to pay for coaching for their employees, even though a new EM would love coaching and how to be a good leader. Companies don't always have the budget for that set aside and I wish they would. I'm working with a lot of companies. I have a couple, but not as many as I'd like. And then the hardest, my favorite kind of client is when I get to embed with the team and really work on seeing what's going on me on the ground with them, and help understand what's going on to tell the executives what's happening and what needs to change and really make a big change. I've done that once, or twice and I'd love to do that more, but it's the hardest. So I'm thinking about easy, medium, hard difficulty of selling things to clients. I would actually make plenty of money is doing workshops, honestly, but I want the impact of embedding. That's my bigger goal is the impact. MAE: Yeah. I basically have used my software as a Trojan horse for [laughs] offering the consulting and change management services to help them get there because that is something that people already expect to spend some money on. That, though has been a little problematic because a few years in, they start to think that the line item in the budget is only for software and then it looks very expensive to them. Whereas, if they were looking at it as a consultant gig, it's incredibly inexpensive to them. CASEY: Yeah. It's maybe so inexpensive that it must not be a quality product that they're buying. MAE: Yes. CASEY: Put it that way implicitly. MAE: Definitely, there's also that. CASEY: When setting prices, this is a good general rule of thumb. It could be too low it looks like it'll be junk, like a dollar store purchase, or it can be too high and they just can't afford it, and then there's the middle sweet spot where it seems very valuable. They barely can afford it, but they know it'll be worth it, and that's a really good range to be in. MAE: Yeah. Honestly, for the work that I do, it's more of a passion project. I would do it totally for free, but that doesn't work for this reason you're talking about. CASEY: Yeah. MAE: Like, it needs to hurt a little bit because it's definitely going to be lots and lots of my time and it's going to be some of their time and it needs to be an investment that not hurt bad [laughs] but just be noticeable as opposed to here's a Kenny's Candy, or something. CASEY: I found that works on another scale, on another level. I do career coaching for friends, and friends of friends, and I'm willing to career coach my friends anyway. I've always been. For 10 years, I've reviewed hundreds, thousands of resumes. I've done so many interviews. I'm down to be a career coach, but no one was taking me up on it until I started charging and now friends are coming to me to pay me money to coach them. I think on their side, it feels more equitable. They're more willing to do it now that I'm willing to take money in exchange for it. I felt really bad charging friends until I had the sliding skill. So people who make less, I charge less for, for this personal service. It's kind of weird having a personal service like that, but it works out really well. I'm so happy for so many friends that have gotten jobs they're happy with now from the support. So even charging friends, like charging them nothing means they're not going to sign up for it. MAE: Yes, and often, there is a bias of like, “Oh, well, that's my friend.” [laughs] so they must not be a BFD.” CASEY: Yeah. But we are all BFDs. MAE: Exactly! How about you Chelsea? How did you start to get to the do the pricing thing? CHELSEA: Yeah, I think it's interesting to hear y'all's approaches to the marketing and the pricing because mine has been pretty different from that. But before I get off on that, one thing I do want to mention around getting started with offering personal services at price is that if it seems too large a step to offer a personal service to one person for an amount of money, one thing that I have witnessed folks have success with in starting out in this vein is to set up a Patreon and then have office hours for patrons wherein they spend 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon, or something like that and anyone who is a patron is welcome to join. What often ends up happening for folks in that situation is that people who are friends of theirs support their Patreon and then the friends can show up. So effectively, folks are paying a monthly fee for access to this office hours, which they might attend, or they might not attend. But there are two nice things about it. The first thing about it is that you're not – from a psychological perspective, it doesn't feel like charging your friends for your time with them. It feels more indirect than that in a way that can be helpful for folks who are very new to charging for things and uncomfortable with the idea. The second thing is that the friends are often much more willing to pay than somebody who's new to charging is willing to charge. So the friends are putting this money into this Patreon, usually not because they're trying to get access to your office hours, but because they want to support you and one of the nice things about Patreon is that it is a monthly amount. So having a monthly email from Patreon that's like, “Hey, you we're sending you—” it doesn't even have to be a lot. “We're sending you 40 bucks this month.” It is a helpful conditioning exercise for folks who are not used to charging because they are getting this regular monthly income and the amount is not as important as receiving the regular income, which is helpful psychological preparation for charging for things on your own, I think. That's not the way that I did it, but I have seen people be effective that way. So there's that. For me, marketing was something that I was very worried about having to do when I started my business. In fact, it was one of those things where my conviction, when I started my consulting business, was I do not want to have to sell my services. I will coast on what clients I can find and when it is no longer easy, I will just get a full-time job because selling traditionally conceptualized is not something that I enjoyed. I had a head start on the marketing element of things, that is sort of the brand awareness element of things, my reputation and the reason for that is that first of all, I had consulted at Labs for several years, which meant that every client team that I had ever worked with there, the director remembered me, the product owner remember me. So a lot of people who had been clients of Labs – I didn't actually get anybody to be a client of mine who was a client of Labs, but the individuals I had worked with on those projects who had then changed jobs to go to different companies, reached out to me on some occasions. So that was one place that I got clients from. The other place that I gotten clients from has been my blog. Before I started my business, I had already been writing a tech blog for like 4, or 5 years and my goal with the tech blog has never actually been to get clientele, or make money. My goals for the blog when I started it were to write down what I was learning so that I would remember it and then after that, it was to figure out how to communicate my ideas so that I would have an easier time communicating them in the workplace. After that, it became an external validation source so that I would no longer depend on my individual manager's opinion of me to decide how good I was at programming. Only very recently has it changed to something like, okay, now I'm good enough at communicating and good enough at tech that I actually have something to teach anybody else. So honestly, for many years, I would see the viewership on my blog and I would be like, “Who are all these people? Why are they in my house?” Like, this is weird, but I would get some credibility from that. CASEY: They don't expect any tea from me. CHELSEA: Yeah. I really hope. I don't have enough to go around, [laughs] but it did help and that's where a lot of folks have kind of come from. Such that when I posted on my blog a post about how I'm going to be going indie. I've quit my job. I didn't really expect that to go anywhere, but a few people did reach out from that and I've been lucky insofar is that that has helped me sustain a client load in a way that I didn't really expect to. There's also, I would be remiss not to mention that what I do is I sling code for money for the majority of my consulting business, at least historically and especially in the beginning was exclusively that, and there's enough of a demand to have somebody come in and write code that that helped. It also helped that as I was taking on clients, I started to niche down specifically what I wanted to work on to a specific type of client and to a specific type problem. So I quickly got to the point where I had enough of a client load that I was going to have to make a choice about which clients to accept, or I was going to have to work over time. Now, the conventional wisdom in this circumstance is to raise your rates. Vast majority of business development resources will tell you that that's what you're supposed to do in this situation. But part of my goal in creating my consulting business had been to get out of burnout and part of the reason for the burnout was that I did not feel that the work that I was doing was contributing to a cause that made me feel good about what I was doing. It wasn't morally reprehensible, but I just didn't feel like I was contributing to a better future in the way that my self-identity sort of mandated that I did. It was making me irritable and all these kinds of things. MAE: I had the same thing, yeah. CHELSEA: Yeah. So it's interesting to hear that that's a common experience, but if I were to raise my rates, the companies that were still going to be able to afford me were going to be companies whose products were not morally reprehensible, but not things that coincided with what I was trying to get out of my consulting business. So what I did instead was I said, “I'm specifically looking to work with organizations that are contributing to basic scientific research, improving access for underserved communities, and combating the effects of climate change,” and kept my rates effectively the same, but niche down the clientele to that. That ended up being kind of how I did it. I find that rates vary from client to client in part, because of what you were talking about, Casey, wherein you have to hit the right price in order to even get clients board in certain circumstances. CASEY: Right. CHELSEA: I don't know a good way to guess it. My technique for this, which I don't know if this is kosher to say, but my technique for this has been whoever reached out to me, interested in bringing me on as a consultant for that organization, I ask that person to do some research and figure out what rate I'm supposed to pitch. That has helped a lot because a lot of times my expectations have been wildly off in those circumstances. One time I had somebody say to me, this was for a custom workshop they wanted. I was like, “What should I charge?” And they were like, “I don't know, a few thousand.” I was like, “Is that $1,200? Is that $9,000? I don't know how much money that is,” and so they went back and then they came back and they were able to tell me more specifically a band. There was absolutely no way I would've hit that number accurately without that information. CASEY: Yeah, and different clients have different numbers. You setting your price standard flat across all customers is not a good strategy either. That's why prices aren't on websites so often. CHELSEA: Yeah. I find that it does depend a lot. There's similarly, like I said, a lot of my clients are clients who are contributing to basic scientific research are very often grant funded and grants funding is a very particular kind of funding. It can be intermittent. There has to be a skillset on the team for getting the grant funding. A lot of times, to be frank, it doesn't support the kinds of rates that somebody could charge hourly in a for-profit institution. So for me, it was worth it to make the choice that this is who I want to work with. I know that my rate is effectively capped at this, if I'm going to do that and that was fine by me. Although, I'm lying to say it was completely fine by me. I had to take a long, hard look in the mirror, while I was still in that last full-time job, and realize that I had become a person who gauged her self-worth by the salary that she commanded more than I was comfortable with. More than I wanted to. I had to figure out how to weaken that dependency before I was really able to go off and do my own thing. That was my experience with it. I'm curious whether y'all, well, in particular, Casey, did you find the same thing? CASEY: The self-worth by salary? CHELSEA: Yeah. CASEY: I felt that over time, yeah. Like I went from private sector big tech to government and I got a pay cut and I was like, “Ugh.” It kind of hurt a little and it wasn't even as much as I was promised. Once I got through the hiring process, it was lower than that and now I'm making way less. When I do my favorite impact thing, the board game, like if I made a board game about mental health for middle schoolers, which is something I really want to do, that makes less than anything else I could with my time. I'll be lucky to make money on that at all. So it's actually inverse. My salary is inversely proportional to how much impact I can have if I'm working anyway. So my dream is to have enough corporate clients that I can do half-time, or game impact, whatever other impact things I'm thinking about doing. I think of my impact a lot. Impact is my biggest goal, but the thing is salary hurts. If I don't have the salary and I want to live where I'm living and the lifestyle I have, I don't want to cut back on that and I don't need to, hopefully. CHELSEA: Right. CASEY: I'm hoping eventually, I'll have a steady stream of clients, I don't need to do the marketing and sales outreach as much and all those hours I kind of recoup. I can invest those in the impact things. I've heard people can do that. I think I'll get there. CHELSEA: No, I think you absolutely will. Mae, I'm curious as to your experience, because I know that you have a lot of experience with a similar calculation of determining which things are going to provide more income, which things are probably going to provide less income, and then balancing across a bunch of factors like money, but also impact, time spent, emotional drain, and all that stuff. MAE: Well, Chelsea. [laughter] I am a real merry go round in this arena. So before I became a programmer, I had a state job, I was well paid, and I was pretty set. Then I was a programmer and I took huge pay cut because I quit. I became a programmer when I was 37 years old. So I already had a whole career and to start at the beginning and be parallel with 20-year-old so it's not just like my salary, but also my level and my level of impact on my – and level of the amount of people who wanted to ask me for my advice [laughs] was significantly different. So like the ego's joking stopped and so when you mentioned the thing about identity. Doing any kind of consulting in your own deal is a major identity reorganization and having the money, the title, the clout, and the engagement. Like a couple years, I have spent largely alone and that is very different than working at a place where I have colleagues, or when I live somewhere and have roommates. But I have found signing up for lots and lots of different social justice and passion project things, and supporting nonprofits that I believe in. So from my perspective, I'm really offering a capacity building grant out of my own pocket, my own time, and my own heart and that has been deeply rewarding and maybe not feel much about my identity around salary. Except it does make me question myself as an adult. Like these aren't the best financial decisions to be making, [chuckles] but I get enough out of having made them that it's worth it to me. One of the things probably you were thinking of, Chelsea, we worked together a little bit on this mutual aid project that I took on when the pandemic started and I didn't get paid any dollars for that and I was working 18 hours a day on it, [chuckles] or something. So I like to really jump in a wholeheartedly and then once I really, really do need some dollars, then I figure something else out. That is kind of how I've ebbed and flowed with it. But mostly, I've done it by reducing my personal overhead so that I'm not wigged about the money and lowering whatever my quality-of-life spending goals [chuckles] are. But that also has had to happen because I have not wanted to and I couldn't get myself to get excited about marketing of myself and my whole deal. Like I legit still don't have a website and I've been in operation now since 2014 so that's a while. I meet people and I can demonstrate what it is and I get clients and for me, having only a few clients, there's dozens of people that work for each one. So it's more of an organization client than a bunch of individuals and I can't actually handle a ton. I was in a YCombinator thing that wanted me to really be reporting on income, growth rates, and all of these number of new acquisition things, and it just wasn't for me. Those are not my goals. I want to make sure that this nonprofit can help more people this year and that they can get more grant money because they know how many people they helped and that those people are more efficient at their job every day. So those are harder to measure. It's not quite an answer to your question, [laughs] but I took it and ran a little. CHELSEA: No, I appreciate that. There is a software engineer and a teacher that I follow on Twitter. His name is GeePawHill. Are y'all familiar with GeePawHill? MAE: No. CHELSEA: And he did a thread a couple of days ago that this conversation reminds me of and I found it. Is that all right if I read like a piece of it and paraphrase part of it? MAE: Yes, please. CHELSEA: Okay. So this is what he says. He says, “The weirdest thing about being a teacher for young geek minds: I am teaching them things…that their actual first jobs will most likely forbid them to do. The young'uns I work with are actually nearly all hire-able as is, after 18 months of instruction, without any intervention from me. The problem they're going to face when they get to The Show isn't technical, or intellectual at all. No language, or framework, or OS, or library, or algorithm is going to daunt them, not for long. No, the problem they're going to face is how to sustain their connection to the well of geek joy, in a trade that is systematically bent on simultaneously exploiting that connection while denying it exists and refusing any and all access to it. It is possible, to stick it out, to acquire enough space and power, to re-assert one's path to the well. Many have done it; many are doing it today. But it is very hard. Very hard. Far harder than learning the Visitor pattern, or docker, or, dart, or SQL, or even Haskell. How do you tell people you've watched “become” as they bathed in the cool clear water that, for some long time, 5 years or more, they must…navigate the horrors of extractive capitalist software development? The best answer I have, so far, is to try and teach them how and where to find water outside of work. It is a lousy answer. I feel horrible giving it. But I'd feel even more horrible if I didn't tell them the truth.” CASEY: I just saw this thread and I really liked it, too. I'm glad you found it. MAE: Oh, yeah. I find it honestly pretty inspiring, like people generally who get involved in the kinds of consulting gigs that we three are talking about, which is a little different than just any random consulting, or any random freelancing. CASEY: Like impact consulting, I might call that. MAE: Yeah. It's awesome if the money comes, but it's almost irrelevant [chuckles] provided that basic needs are meant. So that's kind of been my angle. We'll see how – talk to me in 20 more years when I'm [chuckles] trying to retire and made a lot of choices that I was happy with at the time. CASEY: This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend who's an executive director of an orchestra in the nonprofit space and he was telling me that so many nonprofits shoot themselves in the foot by not doing enough fundraising, by not raising money, and that comes from not wanting to make money in a way because they're a nonprofit, money is not a motive, and everybody's very clear about that. That's noble and all, but it ends up hurting them because they don't have the money to do the impactful things they would as a nonprofit. Money is a necessary evil here and a lot of people are uncomfortable with it. Including me a lot of the time. Honestly, I have to tell myself not to. What would I tell a friend? “No, charge more money.” Okay, I guess I'll tell myself to do that now. I have this conversation with myself a lot. MAE: Yeah. I've been very aware that when I become anti-money, the well dries up. The money well. [laughs] CASEY: Yeah. MAE: And when I am respectful of and appreciative of money in the world, more comes my way. There is an internal dousing, I think that happens that one needs to be very careful about for sure. CASEY: One of the techniques I use with myself and with clients is a matrix where I write out for this approach, this thing that I'm thinking about how much money will it make, how much impact will it have on this goal, and all the different heuristics I would use to make the decision, or columns and all the options arose. I put numbers in it and I might weight my columns because money is less important than impact, but it's still important. It's there. I do all this math. In the end, the summary column with the averages roughly matches what's in my head, which is the things that are similar in my head are similar on paper, but I can see why and that's very clarifying for me. I really like being able to see it in this matrix form and being able to see that you have to focus on the money some amount. If you just did the high impact one, it wouldn't be on the top of the list. It's like, it's hard to think about so many variables at once, but seeing it helps me. CHELSEA: It is. GeePaw speaks to that some later in the thread. He says, “You've got to feed your family. You've got to. That's not negotiable. But you don't got to forget the well. To be any good at all, you have to keep finding the well, keep reaching it, keep noticing it. Doesn't matter whether it's office hours, or after hours. Matters whether you get to it. The thing you've got to watch, when you become a professional geek, isn't the newest tech, and it sure as hell isn't the org's process. You've got to watch whether, or how you're getting to the well. If you're getting to the well, in whatever way, you'll stay alive and change the world.” I think I'm curious as to y'all's thoughts on this, but like I mentioned earlier, I have a full-time job and I also do this consulting on the side. I also teach. I teach at the Master's program in computer science at University of Chicago. I do some mentoring with an organization called Emergent Works, which trains formerly incarcerated technologists. The work situation that I have pieced together for myself, I think manages to get me the income I need and also, the impact that I'm looking for and the ability to work with people and those kinds of things. I think my perspective at this point is that it's probably difficult, if it's realistic at all, to expect any one position to be able to meet all of those needs simultaneously. Maybe they exist, but I suspect that they're relatively few and far between and I think that we probably do ourselves a disservice by propagating this idea that what you need to do is just make yourself so supremely interview-able that everybody wants to hire you and then you get to pick the one position where you get to do that because there's only one in the entirety of tech, it's that rare. Sure, maybe that's an individualist way to look at it. But when we step back and look more closely, or when we step back and look more broadly at that, it's like, all right, so we have to become hypercompetitive in order to be able to get the position where we can make enough while helping people. Like, the means there seem kind of cutthroat for the ends, right? [laughs] CASEY: This reminds me of relationships, too and I think there's a lot of great parallels here. Like you shouldn't expect your partner to meet all of your needs, all of them. MAE: I was thinking the same thing! CASEY: Uh huh. Social, emotional, spiritual, physical, all your needs cannot possibly by one person and that is so much pressure to put on that person, CHELSEA: Right. CASEY: It's like not healthy. CHELSEA: Right. CASEY: You can choose some to prioritize over others for your partner, but you're not going to get a 100% of it and you shouldn't. CHELSEA: Well, and I find that being a conversation fairly regularly in monogamous versus polyamorous circles as well. Like, how much is it appropriate to expect of a partner? But I think it is a valid conversation to have in those circles. But I think that even in the context of a monogamous relationship, a person has other relationships—familial relationships, friend relationships—outside of that single romantic relationship. CASEY: Co-workers, community people, yeah. CHELSEA: Right. But even within that monogamous context, it's most realistic and I would argue, the most healthy to not expect any one person to provide for all of your needs and rather to rely on a community. That's what we're supposed to be able to do. CASEY: Yeah. MAE: Interdependence, not independence. CHELSEA: Right. CASEY: It's more resilient in the face of catastrophe, or change in general, mild, more mild change and you want to be that kind of resilient person for yourself, too. Just like you would do a computer system, or an organization. They should be resilient, too. MAE: Yes. CASEY: Your relationship with your job is another one. MAE: Totally. CHELSEA: Right. And I think that part of the reason the burnout is so quick – like the amount of time, the median amount of time that somebody spends at a company in tech is 2.2 years. MAE: I know, it's so weird. CHELSEA: Very few companies in tech have a large number of lifers, for example, or something like that. There are a number of reasons for that. We don't necessarily have to get into all of them, although, we can if you want. But I think one of them is definitely that we expect to get so much out of a full-time position. Tech is prone. due to circumstances of its origin, to an amount of idealism. We are saving the world. We, as technologists, are saving the world and also, we, as technologists, can expect this salary and we, as technologists, are a family and we play ping pong, and all of these things – [laughter] That contribute to an unrealistic expectation of a work environment, which if that is the only place that we are getting fulfillment as programmers, then people become unsatisfied very quickly because how could an organization that's simultaneously trying to accomplish a goal, meet all of these expect for everybody? I think it's rare at best. CASEY: I want to bring up another example of this kind of thing. Imagine you're an engineer and you have an engineering manager. What's their main job? Is it to get the organization's priorities to be done by the team, like top-down kind of thing? We do need that to happen. Or is it to mentor each individual and coach them and help them grow as an engineer? We need that somewhere, too, yeah. Or is it to make the team – like the team to come together as a team and be very effective together and to represent their needs to the org? That, too, but we don't need one person to do all three of those necessarily. If the person's not technical, you can get someone else in the company to do technical mentorship, like an architect, or just a more senior person on, or off the team somewhere else. But we put a lot of pressure on the engineering managers to do that and this applies to so many roles. That's just one I know that I can define pretty well. There's an article that explains that pretty well. We'll put in the show notes. MAE: Yes! So what I am currently doing is I have a not 40 hours a week job as an engineering manager and especially when I took the gig, I was still doing all of these pandemic charity things and I'm like, “These are more important to me right now and I only have so many hours in the day. So do you need me to code at this place? I can, but do you need me to because all those hours are hours I can go code for all these other things that I'm doing,” and [laughs] it worked. I have been able to do all three of the things that you're talking about, Casey, but certainly able to defer in different places and it's made me – this whole thing of not working full-time makes you optimize in very different ways. So I sprinkle my Slack check-ins all day, but I didn't have to work all day to be present all day. There's a lot that has been awesome. It's not for everyone, but I also have leaned heavily on technical mentorship happening from tech leads as well. CASEY: Sounds good. MAE: But I'm still involved. But this thing about management, especially in tech being whichever programmer seems like the most dominant programmer is probably going to be a good needs to be promoted into management. Just P.S. management is its own discipline, has its own trajectory and when I talk to hiring managers and they only care about my management experience in tech, which is 6 years, right? 8, but I have 25 years of experience in managing. So there's a preciousness of what it is that we are asking for the employees and what the employees are asking of the employer, like you were talking about Chelsea, that is very interesting. It's very privileged, and does lead a lot of people to burnout and disappointment because their ideas got so lofty. I just want to tie this back a little bit too, something you read in that quote about – I forget the last quote, but it was something about having enough to be able to change the world and it reminded me of Adrienne Maree Brown, pleasure activism, emergent strategy, and all of her work, and largely, generations of Black women have been saying, “Yo, you've got to take care [chuckles] of yourself to be able to affect change.” Those people have been the most effective and powerful change makers. So definitely, if you're curious about this topic, I urge you to go listen to some brilliant Black women about it. CASEY: We'll link that in the show notes, too. I think a lot about engineering managers and one way that doesn't come up a lot is you can get training for engineering managers to be stronger managers and for some reason, that is not usually an option people reach for. It could happen through HR, or it could happen if you have a training budget and you're a new EM, you could use your training budget to hire coaching from someone. I'm an example. But there's a ton of people out there that offer this kind of thing. If you don't learn the leadership skills when you switch roles, if you don't take time to learn those skills that are totally learnable, you're not going to have them and it's hard to apply them. There's a lot of pressure to magically know them now that you've switched hats. MAE: And how I don't understand why everyone in life doesn't have a therapist, [laughs] I don't understand why everyone in life doesn't have multiple job coaches at any time. Like why are we not sourcing more ideas and problem-solving strategies, and thinking we need to be the repository of how to handle X, Y, Z situation? CASEY: For some reason, a lot of people I've talked to think their manager is supposed to do that for them. Their manager is supposed to be their everything; their boss. They think the boss that if they're bad, you quit your job. If they're good, you'll stay. That boss ends up being their career coach for people, unless they're a bad career coach and then you're just stuck. Because we expect it so strongly and that is an assumption I want everyone listening to question. Do you need your manager at work to be that person for you? If they are, that's great. You're very fortunate. If not, how can you find someone? Someone in the community, a friend, family member, a professional coach, there's other options, other mentors in the company. You don't have to depend on that manager who doesn't have time for you to give you that kind of support. CHELSEA: So to that end, my thinking around management and mentorship changed about the time I hit – hmm. It was a while ago now, I don't know, maybe 6 years as a programmer, or something like that. Because before that, I was very bought into this idea that your manager is your mentor and all these types of things. There was something that I realized. There were two things that I realized. The first one was that, for me, most of my managers were not well set up to be mentors to me and this is why. Well, the truth is I level up quickly and for many people who are managers in a tech organization, they were technologists for 3 to 5 years before they became managers. They were often early enough in their career that they didn't necessarily know what management entailed, or whether they should say no based on what they were interested in. Many managers in tech figure out what the job is and then try to find as many surreptitious ways as possible to get back into the code. MAE: Yeah. CHELSEA: Additionally, many of those managers feel somewhat insecure about their weakening connection to the code base of the company that they manage. MAE: Yeah. CHELSEA: And so it can be an emotionally fraught experience for them to be mentor to someone whose knowledge of the code base that they are no longer in makes them feel insecure. So I learned that the most effective mentors for me – well, I learned something about the most effective mentors for me and I learned something of the most effective managers for me. I learned that the most effective managers for me either got way out ahead of me experience wise before they became managers, I mean 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, because those are not people who got promoted to management because they didn't know to say no. Those are people who got promoted to management after they got tired of writing code and they no longer staked their self-image on whether they're better coders than the people that they manage. That's very, very important. The other type of person who was a good manager for me was somebody who had never been a software engineer and there are two reasons for that. First of all, they trended higher on raw management experience. Second of all, they were not comparing their technical skillset to my technical skillset in a competitive capacity and that made them better managers for me, honestly. It made things much, much easier. And then in terms of mentors, I found that I had a lot more luck going outside of the organization I was working for mentors and that's again, for two reasons. The first one is that a lot of people, as they gain experience, go indie. Just a lot of people, like all kinds. Some of my sort of most trusted mentors. Avdi Grimm is somebody I've learned a lot from, indie effectively at this point. GeePawHill, like I mentioned, indie effectively at this point. Kenneth Mayer, indie effectively at this point. And these are all people who had decades of experience and the particular style of programming that I was doing very early in my career for many years. So that's the first reason. And then the second reason is that at your job, it is in your interest to succeed at everything you try—at most jobs. And jobs will tell you it's okay to fail. Jobs will tell you it's okay to like whatever, not be good at things and to be learning. But because if I'm drawing a paycheck from an organization, I do not feel comfortable not being good at the thing that I am drawing the paycheck for. MAE: Same. CHELSEA: And honestly, even if they say that that's the case, when the push comes to shove and there's a deadline, they don't actually want you to be bad at things. Come on! That doesn't make any sense. But I've been able to find ambitious projects that I can contribute to not for pay and in those situations, I'm much more comfortable failing because I can be like, “You know what, if they don't like my work, they can have all their money back.” And I work on a couple projects like that right now where I get to work with very experienced programmers on projects that are interesting and challenging, and a lot of times, I just absolutely eat dirt. My first PR doesn't work and I don't know what's wrong and the whole description is like somebody please help and I don't feel comfortable doing that on – if I had to do it at work, I would do it, but I'm not comfortable doing it. I firmly believe that for people to accelerate their learning to their full capacity for accelerating their learning, they must place themselves in situations where they not only might fail, but it's pretty likely. Because that's what's stretching your capacity to the degree that you need to get better and that's just not a comfortable situation for somewhere that you depend on to make a living. And that ended up being, I ended up approaching my management and my mentorship as effectively mutually exclusive things and it ended up working out really well for me. At this particular point in time, I happened to have a manager who happened to get way out ahead of me technically, and is willing to review PRs and so, that's very nice. But it's a nice-to-have. It's not something that I expect of a manager and it's ended up making me much more happy and manage relationships. MAE: I agree with all of that. So well said, Chelsea. CHELSEA: I try, I try. [laughs] Casey, are there things that you look for specifically in a manager? CASEY: Hmm. I guess for that question, I want to take the perspective inward, into myself. What do I need support on and who can I get that from? And this is true as also an independent worker as a consultant freelancer, too. I need support for when things are hard and I can be validated from people who have similar experiences, that kind of like emotional support. I need technical support and skills, like the sales I don't have yet and I have support for that, thank goodness. Individuals, I need ideally communities and individuals, both. They're both really important to me and some of these could be in a manager, but lately, I'm my own manager and I can be none of those things, really. I'm myself. I can't do this external support for myself. Even when I'm typing into a spreadsheet and the computer's trying to be a mirror, it's not as good as talking to another person. Another perspective that I need support on is how do I know what I'm doing is important and so, I do use spreadsheets as a mirror for that a lot of the time for myself. Like this impact is having this kind of magnitude of impact on this many people and then that calculates to this thing, maybe. Does that match my gut? That's literally what I want to know, too. The numbers aren't telling me, but talking to other people about impact on their projects really kind of solidifies that for me. And it's not always the client directly. It could be someone else who sees the impact I'm having on a client. Kind of like the manager, I don't want to expect clients to tell me the impact I'm having. In fact, for business reasons, I should know what the impact is myself, to tell them, to upsell them and continue it going anyway. So it really helps me to have peers to talk through about impact. Like that, too types of support. What other kinds of support do you need as consultants that I didn't just cover? MAE: I still need – and I have [laughs] hired Casey to help me. I still need a way to explain what it is that I am offering and what the value of that really is in a way that is clear and succinct. Every time I've gone to make a website, or a list of what it is that I offer, I end up in the hundreds of bullet points [laughs] and I just don't – [overtalk] CASEY: Yeah, yeah. MAE: Have a way to capture it yet. So often when people go indie, they do have a unique idea, a unique offering so finding a way to summarize what that is can be really challenging. I loved hearing you two when you were talking about knowing what kinds of work you want to do and who your ideal customer is. Those are things I have a clearer sense of, but how to make that connection is still a little bit of a gap for me. But you reminded me in that and I just want to mention here this book, The Pumpkin Plan, like a very bro business book situation, [chuckles] but what is in there is so good. I don't want to give it away and also, open up another topic [laughs] that I'll talk too long about. So I won't go into it right now, but definitely recommend it. One of the things is how to call your client list and figure out what is the most optimal situation that's going to lead toward the most impact for everybody. CASEY: One of the things I think back to a lot is user research and how can we apply that this business discovery process. I basically used the same techniques that were in my human computer interaction class I took 10, or 15 years ago. Like asking open ended questions, trying to get them to say what their problems are, remembering how they said it in their own words and saying it back to them—that's a big, big step. But then there's a whole lot of techniques I didn't learn from human computer interaction, that are sales techniques, and my favorite resource for that so far is called SPIN selling where SPIN is an acronym and it sounds like a wonky technique that wouldn't work because it's just like a random technique to pull out. I don't know, but it's not. This book is based on studies and it shows what you need to do to make big ticket sales go through, which is very different than selling those plastic things with the poppy bubbles in the mall stand in the middle of the hallway. Those low-key things they can manipulate people into buying and people aren't going to return it probably. But big-ticket things need a different approach than traditional sales and marketing knowledge and I really like the ideas in SPIN selling. I don't want to go into them today. We'll talk about it later. But those are two of the perspectives I bring to this kind of problem, user research and the SPIN selling techniques. I want to share what my ideal client would be. I think that's interesting, too. So I really want to help companies be happier and more effective. I want to help the employees be happier and more effective, and that has the impact on the users of the company, or whoever their clients are. It definitely impacts that, which makes it a thing I can sell, thankfully. So an organization usually knows when they're not the most happy, or the most effective. They know it, but my ideal client isn't just one that knows that, but they also have leadership buy-in; they have some leader who really cares and can advocate for making it better and they just don't know how. They don't have enough resources to make it happen in their org. Maybe they have, or don't have experience with it, but they need support. That's where I come in and then my impact really is on the employees. I want to help the employees be happier and more effective. That's the direct impact I want, and then it has the really strong, indirect impact on the business outcomes. So in that vein, I'm willing to help even large tech companies because if I can help their employees be happier, that is a positive impact. Even if I don't care about large tech companies' [chuckles] business outcomes, I'm okay with that because my focus is specifically on the employees. That's different than a lot of people I talk to; they really just want to support like nonprofit type, stronger impact of the mission and that totally makes sense to me, too. MAE: Also, it is possible to have a large and ever growing equitably run company. It is possible. I do want to contribute toward that existing in the world and as much as there's focus on what the ultimate looking out impact is, I care about the experience of employees and individuals on the way to get there. I'm not a utilitarian thinker. CASEY: Yeah, but we can even frame it in a utilitarian way if we need to. If we're like a stakeholder presentation, if someone leaves the company and it takes six months to replace them and their work is in the meantime off board to other people, what's the financial impact of all that. I saw a paper about it. Maybe I can dig it up and I'll link to it. It's like to replace a person in tech it costs a $100K. So if they can hire a consultant for less than a $100K to save one person from leaving, it pays for itself. If that number is right, or whatever. Maybe it was ten employees for that number. The paper will say much better than I will. CHELSEA: I think that in mentioning that Casey, you bring up something that businesses I think sometimes don't think about, which is some of the hidden costs that can easily be difficult to predict, or difficult to measure those kinds of things. One of the hidden costs is the turnover costs is the churn cost because there's how much it takes to hire another person and then there's the amount of ramp time before that person gets to where the person who left was. CASEY: Right, right, right. CHELSEA: And that's also a thing. There's all the time that developers are spending on forensic software analysis in order to find out all of the context that got dropped when a person left. CASEY: Yeah. The one person who knew that part of the code base, the last one is gone, uh oh. CHELSEA: Right. CASEY: It's a huge trust. And then engineering team is often really interested in conveying that risk. But if they're not empowered enough and don't have enough bandwidth time and energy to make the case, the executive team, or whoever will never hear it and they won't be able to safeguard against it. MAE: Or using the right language to communicate it. CASEY: Right, right. And that's its own skill. That's trainable, too thankfully. But we don't usually train engineers in that, traditionally. Engineers don't receive that training unless they go out of their way for it. PMs and designers, too, honestly. Like the stakeholder communication, everybody can work on. MAE: Yeah. CASEY: That's true. MAE: Communication. Everyone can, or not. Yes. [laughs] I learned the phrase indie today. I have never heard it and I really like it! It makes me feel cool inside and so love and – [overtalk] CASEY: Yeah, I have no record label, or I am my own record label, perhaps. MAE: Yo! CASEY: I've got one. I like the idea of having a Patreon, not to make money, but to have to help inspire yourself and I know a lot of friends have had Patreons with low income from it and they were actually upset about it. So I want to go back to those friends and say, “Look, this prove some people find value in what you're doing.” Like the social impact. I might make my own even. Thank you. MAE: I know I might do it too. It's good. That's good. CHELSEA: Absolutely. Highly recommended. One thing that I want to take away is the exercise, Casey, that you were talking about of tallying up all of the different things that a given position contributes in terms of a person's needs. Because I think that an exercise like that would be extremely helpful for, for example, some of my students who are getting their very first tech jobs. Students receive a very one-dimensional message about the way that tech employment goes. It tends to put set of five companies that show remain unnamed front and center, which whatever, but I would like them to be aware of the other options. And there is a very particular way of gauging the value of a tech position that I believe includes fewer dimensions than people should probably consider for the health of their career long-term and not only the health of their career, but also their health in their career. CASEY: One more parting thought I want to share for anyone is you need support for your career growth, for your happiness. If you're going to be a consultant, you need support for that. Find support in individuals and communities, you deserve that support and you can be that support for the people who are supporting you! It can be mutual. They need that, too.

The @UclaBTeam is now part of the What's Bruin Network! Subscribe to one feed to get three great shows!What's Bruin Symposium - A conversation about all things Bruin over drinks with Bruin Report Online's @mikeregaladoLA, @wbjake68, Jamaal (@champspapa1015) and BillThe B Team - insightful Bruin talk with @MichaelMHanna and Nathan (@Sideoutpar)West Coast Bias - LA Sports (mostly Lakers, Dodgers and NFL) with Jamaal and JakeSupport WBS at Patreon.com/WhatsBruinShow for just $2/month and get exclusive content, access to our SLACK channel and the new WBS Sticker. Please rate and review us on whatever platform you listen on. Call the WBS Hotline at 805-399-4WBS (Suck it Reign of Troy)

The @UclaBTeam is now part of the What's Bruin Network! Subscribe to one feed to get three great shows!What's Bruin Symposium - A conversation about all things Bruin over drinks with Bruin Report Online's @mikeregaladoLA, @wbjake68, Jamaal (@champspapa1015) and BillThe B Team - insightful Bruin talk with @MichaelMHanna and Nathan (@Sideoutpar)West Coast Bias - LA Sports (mostly Lakers, Dodgers and NFL) with Jamaal and JakeSupport WBS at Patreon.com/WhatsBruinShow for just $2/month and get exclusive content, access to our SLACK channel and the new WBS Sticker. Please rate and review us on whatever platform you listen on. Call the WBS Hotline at 805-399-4WBS (Suck it Reign of Troy)

National Scout Russell Brown sits down to interview Virginia Tech offensive lineman Brock Hoffman! In this interview, the guys get into detail over the following: - What Brock does in his spare time? - How does he break down film? - Transferring from Coastal Carolina to Virginia Tech- What he does well on the field and what he can get better with - All that and MORE! Russ gives his opinion on that and more on Cover 1 | Draft Podcast! Be sure to follow Russ on Twitter: @RussNFLDraft We would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think!—Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT-Access to detailed Premium Content.-Access to our video library.-Access to our private Slack channel.-Sneak peek at upcoming content.-Exclusive group film room sessions.& much more.SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-content-plans/Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below.—DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP!► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.coverapp► iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cover-1/id1355302955?mt=8—► Subscribe to our YouTube channel► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play—Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1.——Follow Us HereTwitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/cover-1The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.

National Scout Russell Brown sits down to interview Virginia Tech offensive lineman Brock Hoffman! In this interview, the guys get into detail over the following: - What Brock does in his spare time? - How does he break down film? - Transferring from Coastal Carolina to Virginia Tech - What he does well on the field and what he can get better with - All that and MORE! Russ gives his opinion on that and more on Cover 1 | Draft Podcast! Be sure to follow Russ on Twitter: @RussNFLDraft We would love to hear your thoughts on this topic and the show in general. Comment below and let us what you think! — Don't miss out on our PREMIUM CONTENT -Access to detailed Premium Content. -Access to our video library. -Access to our private Slack channel. -Sneak peek at upcoming content. -Exclusive group film room sessions. & much more. SIGN UP HERE: https://www.cover1.net/premium-content-plans/ Thank you for watching this video, we can't do it without the support of our fans. If you have any ideas for content you'd like to see from us, comment below. — DOWNLOAD THE COVER 1 MOBILE APP! ► Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.coverapp ► iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cover-1/id1355302955?mt=8 — ► Subscribe to our YouTube channel ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | Buffalo Podcast on Google Play ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft Podcast on iTunes ► Subscribe to the Cover 1 | NFL Draft on Google Play — Cover 1 provides multi-faceted analysis of the NFL and NFL Draft including: Podcasts, Video blogs, Commentary, Scouting Reports, Highlights and Video Breakdowns. NFL footage displayed is not owned by Cover 1. — — Follow Us Here Twitter: https://twitter.com/Cover_1_ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@Cover_1_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Cover1NFL/ Official Merchandise:https://teespring.com/en-GB/stores/cover-1 The Cover1.net web site and associated Social Media platforms are not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or sponsored by the NFL or any of its clubs, specifically the Buffalo Bills. All products, marks and company names are the registered trademarks of their original owners. The use of any trade name or trademark is for identification and reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder of their product brand.