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Laughter may be one of the most powerful tools we have for navigating stress, burnout, and the weight of modern life. In this conversation, I had the pleasure of sitting down once again with Sir James Gray Robinson to explore why humor, self-awareness, and gratitude matter far more than most of us realize. James and I talk about how easily we lose the ability to laugh at ourselves, how that loss feeds stress and burnout, and why taking life too seriously often does more harm than good. Along the way, we reflect on comedy, culture, trauma, and the simple truth that being able to laugh can shift perspective faster than almost anything else. James also shares what he has learned from years of coaching high-stress professionals, especially lawyers, about how laughter resets the nervous system and opens the door to better problem solving. We talk about gratitude as a powerful antidote to fear and anger, the role artificial intelligence can play as a daily tool for perspective, and how self-reflection helps us separate reality from the stories our minds create. We even explore James's work with an ancient royal order dedicated to service and philanthropy. I believe you will find this conversation thoughtful, grounding, and surprisingly uplifting, because at its core, it reminds us that joy, humor, and connection are not luxuries. They are essential to living an unstoppable life. Highlights: 00:59 – Learn why losing the ability to laugh at yourself creates stress and emotional rigidity.04:26 – Understand the difference between witty humor and humor that harms rather than heals.11:03 – Discover how laughter resets the nervous system and interrupts burnout patterns.15:35 – Learn why gratitude is one of the strongest tools for overcoming fear and anger.16:16 – Hear how artificial intelligence can be used as a daily tool to shift perspective and invite joy.35:19 – Understand how burnout often begins with internal stories that distort reality and fuel stress. About the Guest: Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq. is an award winning third-generation trial attorney who specialized in family law and civil litigation for 27 years in his native North Carolina. Burned out, Sir James quit in 2004 and has spent the next 20 years doing extensive research and innovative training to help others facing burnout and personal crises to heal. He has taught wellness, transformation, and mindfulness internationally to thousands of private clients, businesses, and associations. As a licensed attorney, he is focused on helping lawyers, professionals, entrepreneurs, employers, and parents facing stress, anxiety, addiction, depression, exhaustion, and burnout. Sir James is a highly respected speaker, writer, TV personality, mentor, consultant, mastermind, and spiritual leader/healer who is committed to healing the planet. He possesses over 30 certifications and degrees in law, healing, and coaching, as well as hundreds of hours of post-certification training in the fields of neuroscience, neurobiology, and neuroplasticity, epigenetics, mind-body-spirit medicine, and brain/heart integration. Having experienced multiple near-death experiences has given him a deeper connection with divinity and spiritual energy. Sir James regularly trains professionals, high-level executives, and businesspeople to hack their brains to turn stress into success. He is regularly invited to speak at ABA and state bar events about mental and emotional health. His work is frequently published in legal and personal growth magazines, including the ABA Journal, Attorneys-at-Work Magazine, and the Family Law Journal. Sir James has authored 13 books on personal growth and healing, including three targeting stressed professionals as well as over 100 articles published in national magazines. He has produced several training videos for attorneys, executives, entrepreneurs and high-level professionals. Sir James has generously endowed numerous projects around the world to help children, indigenous natives, orphans and the sick, including clean water projects in the Manu Rain Forest, Orphanages, Schools and Medical Clinics/Ambulances in India, Buddhist monks in Nepal, and schools in Kenya, Ecuador, and Puerto Rico. In addition to his extensive contributions, Sir James produced and starred in three documentaries that will be released in 2024, focusing on healing, mental and emotional health. The first, "Beyond Physical Matter," is available on several streaming platforms, including Amazon Prime. The trailer can be found at www.BeyondPhysicalMatter.com. The second, “Beyond the Mastermind Secret”, is scheduled for release in the fall of 2024. The trailer can be found at https://BeyondMastermindSecrets.com/. The third, “Beyond Physical Life” is scheduled for release at the end of 2024. The trailer can be found at https://beyondphysicallife.com/. He has formed an entertainment media production company known as Beyond Entertainment Global, LLC, and is currently producing feature length films and other media. In recognition of his outstanding work and philanthropy, Sir James was recently knighted by the Royal Order of Constantine the Great and Saint Helen. In addition, Sir James won the prestigious International Impact Book Award for his new book “Thriving in the Legal Arena: The Ultimate Lawyer's Guide for Transforming Stress into Success”. Several of his other books have won international book awards as well. Sir James was recently awarded the President's Lifetime Achievement Award by President Joe Biden for his outstanding service to his community, country and the world. He will be awarded the prestigious International Humanitarian Award known as Men with Hearts, in London, England in the fall of 2024, as well as Man of the Year and Couple of the year with his wife, Linda Giangreco. Sir James has a wide variety of work/life experiences, including restauranteur, cattle rancher, horse trainer, substance abuse counselor, treatment center director, energy healer, bodyguard, legal counselor for several international spiritual organizations, golfer and marathon runner. He graduated from R.J. Reynolds High School in 1971, Davidson College in 1975 and Wake Forest University School of Law in 1978. Ways to connect with Sir James**:** FB - https://www.facebook.com/sirjamesgrayrobinson  IG - https://www.instagram.com/sirjamesgrayrobinson/  TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@sirjamesgrayrobinson?_t=8hOuSCTDAw4&_r=1 Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@JamesGrayRobinson LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gray-robinson-/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:17 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. And we're doing something today we haven't done too often, but we've done it a few times. We are having a second conversation with James Gray Robinson, actually, sir, James Gray Robinson, and we're going to talk about that part of it today we did last time, but I'm going to start actually a little bit different way. You and I were just talking about humor. We were talking about Mel Brooks, because I, when you came into the to the room, I said, What in the wide, wide world of sports is it going on here, which is a very famous line from Blazing Saddles. And you pointed out that that movie probably couldn't be made today, and I agree. But why do you think that is Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  02:10 I think that we've become so disenchanted with ourselves that everything's offensive now, I think back when we and when I grew up in the 50s and 60s, people had so many really, you know, life threatening things to think about, like atomic war and, you know, it just seems like people have shifted their consciousness away from having a good time to simply having to be right all the time. And so we've lost the ability to laugh at ourselves. I mean, one of my favorite lines is, if you think Talk is cheap, you've never talked to a lawyer. And the thing is, is that I'm a lawyer, and I find that incredibly funny, yeah, because if you can't laugh at yourself, then you really are going to struggle in life, because a lot of times, things don't work out the way that we anticipated or wanted them to. And there's a couple of different ways that we can react to that or respond to that. There's a I found that people are losing the ability to take responsibility for themselves and that they blame everything on everybody else. We're raising a nation of victims, and victims are not going to laugh at anything. So what we, I think, what we have to do is we have to start teaching our children how to have a sense of humor. If something doesn't happen the just the way we want it to, then laugh at it. It doesn't have to, you know, unless it's pain, you know, if it's physically abusive or something, then you know. But the thing is, we're trying to helicopter parent everything, and we all get so upset when somebody says something off the cuff or maybe without fully thinking through what they're saying. So it's, it's just unfortunate that there are many, many things in life I think could be avoided with just a good chuckle and go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, you know, like if somebody said to me, you're. Eyes on wrong I'd laugh because it would what difference does it make? But what my tile looks like? Yeah, and I would just laugh, and I would laugh at me, and I would laugh at them, because somebody thought that there was something wrong with that, yeah. Michael Hingson  05:21 Well, what about people like Don Rickles? You know, who, who was always known for insulting everyone and being an obnoxious character. What do you think about him? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  05:36 I you know the thing is, is that he was offensive, but he wasn't, what's the word? I would say he he wasn't profane, because he never cursed at anybody. You know, I've watched a couple of roasts. You know, they call them roast, right? They get a bunch of people together, and they make fun of somebody. And back in the day, when Don Rickles and Johnny Carson, Milton, burl, rich, little even, what couple of committee is, I can't think of, but they were extremely witty, and they were perhaps offensive, but they weren't necessarily insulting to the point where you It's not Funny. And I think we've got and we've gone to the point where we now are seeing these roasts. And I thought I saw Tom Brady's roast. Actually paid to watch it, and it was the most profane, you know, unfunny, hurtful, hour and a half I think I've ever watched, and it just I didn't smile once. I just was wincing the whole way through, wondering why people think that sort of nonsense is funny. Michael Hingson  07:19 Well, I asked about Don Rickles, because I saw an interview with him on the Donahue show, when Phil Donahue had his TV show, one of the things. And after he said this, I thought about it, and of course, never really was able to see in person, but I believed him. Don rickel said, Look, I never pick on someone if I think they're going to be offended. He said, If I see somebody in the audience and start picking on them and it looks like they're taking offense or they're getting angry about it, I won't pick on them anymore. And he said I might even go talk with them later, but he said I won't pick on them anymore. And I thought about that, he said, I will never there are lines I won't cross, which is some of what you just said. But he really was absolutely adamant about the fact that he didn't really want to insult people. He wanted people to have fun, so he always looked for people in the audience who would laugh at what he had to say and how he and how he abused them and so on. He said those are the people that he really liked to to interact with because they weren't taking offense, which I thought was a very intuitive and interesting concept on his part. And if you really want to talk about a comedian who was never profane no matter what he did or happened to him, later, think about Bill Cosby, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  08:49 yeah, and or Red Skelton, or Red Skelton, yeah, that was and always, he would always end up with God Bless. And the thing that amazes me about today's comedy is how much violence. There's a subtle undercurrent of violence under all of their humor. And it's, you know, they're kind of like laughing at somebody who is hurt or is not as intelligent as the comedian thinks he is. Or, you know, they're making fun of stuff just to be hurtful. And it's not, you know, they've lost the connection between being taken taking fun, making fun of somebody and being hurtful. And I just amazed when I see a lot of comedians today. I mean, there's lots of very witty, very intelligent, grand guffaw producing comedy out. There. And it's, there's some, they're very, very talented comedians out there, but then there are the other people that want to drag you through the Michael Hingson  10:07 mud, yeah? And it's all shock. It's all shock, yeah, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  10:12 and intentionally offend you to, I guess it's some kind of power play, but it's simple. You know, people, I think that people actually are so traumatized that they they think it's funny when somebody traumatizes somebody else. Michael Hingson  10:34 Well, I Oh, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  10:35 go on. No, go right ahead. Michael Hingson  10:38 I I never got to see Don Rickles live, although I would have loved to, and I would love to have paid the money to sit in the front row, hopefully, hoping that he would pick on me so I could jump up and say, Yeah, I saw you once on TV. I took one look at you and haven't been able to see since. What do you think about that? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  11:02 Never that would be appropriate, yeah? I mean, because he'd love it, you're making fun, yeah, you're making fun of him, and you're making fun of yourself. And that's what I call self depreciating humor. He where the jokes, yeah, the joke really is about you. It's not about him, yeah, and it's in it, so it's people probably wouldn't take offense to that. But when people sit there, you know, start poking fun at how people look or what they their educational level, or their, you know, cultural background is I, I just don't get that. I mean, it's and I grieve that we're turning into bullies. Well, you know, and it's, it's unfortunate you Michael Hingson  11:52 you've dealt a lot, especially over the last 20 years, with burnout and things like that. Do you think that what's happening in in society based on what you're talking about, with the lack of humor, without self deprecating environments and all that. Do you think that's because it's stressful, contributing to burnout? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  12:14 Yes, I think, well, we again, we take ourselves way too seriously. The one thing that I've noticed, especially with my clients, is when I can get them to laugh, they start to take a different perspective of their life. But when they think everything that they're what I call they're stuck in Warrior mode. There's, you know, we have a, don't know if we talked about this last time, but we have a nervous system that goes one or two ways. It either goes to fight or flight, called the sympathetic nervous system, where you know you're reacting to everything in a negative way, because it's a matter of survival, or we go to the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the fun part of our psyche, and we can enjoy ourselves, but everybody is so scared of something there that they the body cannot stand That level of stress for years. I mean, that's what burnout is, and it it tears your body apart until it actually turns off. And that's what happens when you burn out. We used to call it nervous breakdown, but, you know now it's burnout. But the point is, is you just wear yourself out because you don't have anything that will break the constant stream of stress, and one of the best ways that you can handle stress is to laugh. Laugh at yourself, laugh at something, a joke, laugh at whatever you find stressful, because it breaks that autonomic nervous system response. And if you can reset yourself every now and then that you know, one of the ways I teach people how to deal with stress is to research jokes. Go buy a good joke book, and you can go and find enough. You know, all you need is a couple of jokes to start the day, and you're going to be in a much better frame of mind going to work or dealing with whatever you have to deal with. If you've laughed at least once before you go to work, because that that engages your parasympathetic. I call it the guru. And you can deal with adversity. You can deal with problems. You can actually problem solve. You. And but when we're stressed out because we're afraid of what's going to happen, we're afraid of making mistakes, and we're afraid of what somebody's going to think of us, then we are just going to end up in a very bad place, mentally and emotionally and physically. So it's, you know, one of the things that you can do, as if you're having to deal with stress on a daily basis, is to just remember how to be grateful. I mean, I think that of all the emotions, gratitude is probably the most powerful one there is because it will overcome fear, it will overcome anger, it will overcome shame, it will overcome guilt, it will overcome envy, all the negative emotions cannot stand up to gratitude. And so if you can learn to be grateful, and especially grateful for the struggle, then you are going to be a happy camper, and you can probably learn to laugh, until you can be grateful though you're going to struggle. And that's we're not designed to do the struggling. We're designed to have fun. I mean, that's people always say, what are my purpose, you know? And why am I doing here? And I said, you only have two purposes in life. One is to breathe, and the other one is to laugh. Everything else is just a complication. So if you just remember that, if you can be grateful and laugh once in a while, you're going to be a lot better off than somebody that takes it too seriously, Michael Hingson  16:44 yeah, well, and you, you must see a lot of it, because I know you, you do a lot of coaching and working with especially lawyers, which is a very stressful situation, especially people who are truly dedicated to the Law and who look at it in the right way, there must be a lot of stress. How do you get them to relax? I like the idea of getting a joke book. I think that's that's cute, and I think that that makes a lot of sense. But in but in general, how do you get people to laugh and to do it as a habit. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  17:24 Well, I've been doing this for 20 years, so my answer 20 years ago is probably a little different than the answer I have now. Artificial Intelligence is my friend, because I can, I can do anything with artificial intelligence. And one of the best ways I, you know, I program my artificial intelligence to to respond, to react and to know who I am. I put, I put all of my books onto artificial intelligence. Every time I write an article, I put it in there. I'm always talking to it. I'm always saying, Well, this is the way I feel about this. This is the way I feel about that. This is what this is funny to me. This something happened to me today that is was really funny. And then I tell it what was funny. And I would program this thing. So the next, when I wake up in the morning, I can just ask it tell me something that'll make me laugh, and it always has something that will make me laugh. And so because it can, not only does it know what I fed into it, it knows everything that's on the internet, right? And so you can, you can get a, you know, something funny, something to start your day, make me glad to be alive, you know, tell me something that'll make me grateful. All those things. It'll, just in a millisecond, it'll be on your screen, yeah. And so it's, that's a tool we obviously didn't have even a year ago, but 20 years ago, it was a little bit more depth, a little bit more effort to find these things. But you could, you could do that. I mean, we did have the internet 20 years ago, and so we, we could go looking and go searching for funny stuff. But it's not as easy as is artificial intelligence, so you know. And if you I'll tell you one thing, it's been a real tool that has been very useful for me, because sometimes if I'm not sure what I should say, my old my old motto was, if you don't know what to say, shut up. But now I asked, I asked, and I'm not sure what, how I should respond to this. What do you suggest? And it'll come up with some. Give me five things that I could say. Michael Hingson  19:59 Does it do? Will tell you, does it ever tell you should just shut up? Just checking yes, yes. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  20:04 Okay, good, good for you. Don't say any. Don't say anything, you fool. But the point is, is that it's got, you know, every book that's ever been written about psychology in its database, so you can find things that would make you sound wise and profound. And I use it all the time to figure out what to say, or to how a better way to say something is Yeah, and that way I've managed to stay pretty much out of trouble by and, you know, it's like having a friend who you could ask, What should I say? And they would come back with a couple of answers that you know, then you can just decide yourself which one you should use, right? Michael Hingson  20:57 And you may, and you may, in addition, tweak it which which makes sense, because AI is, is a tool, and I, I am not sure that it is going to ever develop truly to the point where it, if you will, wakes up and and becomes its own true intelligence, Skynet Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  21:24 on all the Terminator series, Michael Hingson  21:27 or or in Robert heinleins, the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. The computer woke up. It helped as a still my favorite science fiction book, and it was, if you've never read it, it's a story about the the moon in 2076 which had been colonized and was being run by the lunar authority back on Earth, it had no clue about anything. And so in 2076 the moon revolted, and the computer and the computer helped. So on July 4, 2076 it was a great movie or a great book. I'd love to see it dramatized. If somebody would do it the right way, I think it'd make a great radio series. But haven't done it yet. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  22:14 Well, Robert Highland is a genius. No doubt about that, Stranger in a Strange Land was big in my developmental years, yeah, and Michael Hingson  22:26 that was the book that came out right after the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. I still think the moon and harsh mistress is even a better book than Stranger in a Strange Land. But Stranger in a Strange Land really did catch on and and rightfully so. It was, it was very clever. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  22:42 Well, most people, I mean, you know, clean humor is a good place to start, yeah, because I think that all of the profanity that comedians rely on to shock people. And, you know, there are two ways that we have the laugh response one is, is that it shocks you in the sense that it makes you afraid, because it seems like a attack on you. It's a defensive mechanism that we have. It's not even if it's not funny, we will laugh, because that's our body's way of dealing with something that's really traumatic. The other way is when we something strikes us as funny because it's witty or clever, and that is more of a that's a less stressful response. And can we, we can laugh, and it's a more of a genuine response than one where we're basically traumatized, right? And I think that, and with everything else, is who? Who do you hang around? Who is your tribe? Who do you? Somebody was somebody said, some psychologist said, you know, show me 10 of your friends and I'll tell you exactly what your problem is, because the people you hang around will mirror what's going on in your interior landscape. And if you've got friends who are problematic, that means that there's some things on your psyche that you need to take a look at. And you know that, and it's especially people who have been traumatized early in life. Their coping mechanisms and their judgment is not so good, right? So they have to take a step back and look at well, are these people helping me? Are they hurting me? Because if you notice, a lot of traumatized people will surround themselves with traumatized people, and all they do is whip themselves in the lather. Are every day, and they get so melodramatic, and they get so upset about everything that's going on in life, they can't find any sense of humor or any sense of joy, yeah, and it's until they let go of those, those trauma responses they're they're pretty much in a hat, in a self repeating habit that is not going to be healthy. Michael Hingson  25:29 And I think you're absolutely right. It is very much about joy. And we, we should. We should find ways to be joyful and feel joy, and, of course, laugh and not take life so seriously. Unfortunately, there's so much going on today with people who clearly have no sense of humor, or at least they never exhibit it, that it tends to really be a problem. And unfortunately, I think we're all learning some really bad habits, or many of us are learning some very bad habits because of that. And I don't know what's going to break that cycle, but the cycle is going to have to break at some point. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  26:14 It will, unfortunately, a lot of times it takes a revolution, yeah, in order to replace old, unhealthy thought patterns with better thought patterns. You know, I'm reminded of the old saying that when an idiot tries to teach another idiot, you end up with two idiots. So you you have to be careful about who you're taking advice from, right? And so if, especially you know my my advice to anybody that's struggling and suffering is turn off your phone and turn off your TV, and if you know how to read, go read a book, because when you can get into a period of calm, quiet reflection, you're going to be able to make More sense out of what's going on in your life, and especially if you're reading a book that will explain to you the best way to deal with challenges, right? But just or just read a funny book, you know, something you know I find sarcasm and cleverness, extremely funny. So I love books like Forrest Gump, who who take extreme examples and turns them into funny scenarios, and they did a good Michael Hingson  28:01 job making that into a movie too. I thought, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  28:05 I mean, I tell you, I forget who the director was, but they were brilliant because they were able to spin a story that was honest. But it wasn't offensive, and you could laugh because of all of forests characteristics and everything else, but it was presented in the way that it wasn't, you know? It wasn't being mean, right? And it wasn't, being unkind, and so it was just a story of a man who ended up being a success, and it was more through Providence than anything else. You know, I love the Marx Brothers, oh, sure, because they always had a way of making fun of each other and making fun of other people and making fun of themselves that was truly humorous. And it was more sight gags. It was more, you know, one liners, and it wasn't by being mean to anybody. It was as about being very aware of what was going on. Michael Hingson  29:25 I'm trying to remember which movie it was. I think it was duck soup. Somebody fell into the water and she yelled, throw me a lifesaver. And so somebody threw her a lifesaver. That is a candy. Yeah, it's just so clever. It was clever. But, you know, one of the things that I enjoy is old radio shows, radios from the shows from the 30s, 40s and 50s, and the humor, again, was respectful of. Hmm, and they could pick on people to a degree, but it was never in a in a mean way, but just the humor was always so clever, and so I would, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  30:14 I would listen George and Gracie Allen, George, Jack Benny, Michael Hingson  30:19 Phil Harris, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  30:21 and you was his name, Jackie Gleason, Michael Hingson  30:29 Amos and Andy. And of course, people today have decided Amos and Andy are offensive because they say it's all about blacks, and you're insulting black people. If anybody would go back and look in history, the reality is that Amos and Andy probably was one of the most well, it was one of the most popular shows on radio to the point where, if you were in a movie theater on Saturday afternoon watching a movie, they would stop it when Amos and Andy came on and play the show, and it didn't matter what the color of your skin was. In fact, I asked an Amos and Andy expert one time, when did they stop referring to themselves as black or dark? And the reason I asked that is because the first time I was exposed to Amos and Andy was actually the Amos and Andy TV shows, and I didn't know they were black, and I learned later that they were taken off the air when people started becoming offended because there were two black people. But I asked this, this lady about Amos and Andy, and when did they stop referring to themselves as black? And she said, Well, probably about the last time that she was aware of where there was a reference to it was 1937 so for many, many years, if you decided that their voices were black people, then, then you did, but they didn't talk about black or white or anything else. And and so it was. It was a very interesting show. And one guy usually was trying to con the other one and the other, well, king fish would con Andy, who usually fell for it. But gee, how many shows with white people do we see the same thing. You know? The reality is that it was a very funny show by any standard. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  32:26 Well, Sanford and sons, Sanford, same thing. I mean, that humor was, it was cutting you know, anytime you get on a cutting edge type of program, you know, it's inevitable that somebody's going to take offense. But I always laughed out loud. I watched that show, and it wasn't because they were demeaning anybody. It was just watching people trying to get by and using their wits. And a lot of times it was, it was comical because it wasn't very clever, but it was just they were doing the best they could to make a living. They were doing the best they could to live in their society. And I always admired that. I mean, they never, and they were able to, I guess, touch on the aspect of racial inequality without burning the house down. And it was like always admired them. You know, Sanford and sons, the Jeffersons, all of those shows, how about all the family? If you want to talk all in the family too well they they were just, you could switch one script with the other because it was more about human beings being human than it was about what the color of your skin was, yeah. So, you know, I would invite anybody who is offended by something to really ask yourself, what is it that offends you? Because there's always something in your consciousness that you find offensive. You would never be offended by anything if you unless you found something within yourself that's offensive, whether because and it's called the psychological term is called projection. You're projecting on what you're perceiving, and it's called bias. We all have conclusions. We all have prejudice. We all have judgments. Our brain is built that way to keep us alive, and so we're always interpreting data and perceptions to see if there's any threat out there, and if, when we start taking words as threatening, then we've got a problem. Yep, and. But because things like comedy and humor shouldn't offend anybody, but because you believe in something that makes that offensive, that's why you're offended. And so it's really as useful to people to really think about what is it that I believe that makes that offensive? Because most of the time you will find that whatever it is that you believe may not be true, and it's just something that some kind of conclusion you've drawn because of your experiences, or what you've been taught or what you've witnessed that's given you a wrong idea about something. So I invite anybody who is mad or angry that they look and see what is that belief that is making you angry? Michael Hingson  35:59 Yeah, it gets back to self analysis. It gets back to looking at yourself, which is something that most of us haven't really learned a lot about how to do. How. How did you pick up all these, these kind of nuggets of wisdom and so on. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  36:19 Well, when I burn, when I had my nervous breakdown back in 2004 I quit practicing law for a while because I couldn't bear the thought of going into my office and fighting another day of the battles that trial lawyers always fight. Now I won't say that transactional lawyers don't have battles, but Trial Lawyers end up probably picking a few fights on their own that, you know, they didn't really need to go there, but they do because, you know, Trial Lawyers have a, You know, a talent for arguing they have it's exciting to most of them, and they love to fight. And so when? But eventually, if you don't know how to manage it, it will, yes, the key wear you down. Yeah. So I got out of the law business for a while, and instead, I decided I wanted to go find out. Number one, why did I burn out? And number two, how to heal it. And so I went and studied with a number of energy healers who were very, very conscious people. They were very, very aware. You might even say they were enlightened, but it was they were always teaching me and always telling me about whatever I'm experiencing on the outside is just a reflection of what's on the inside. And so it's not so much about somebody being right or somebody being wrong. It's just the world is a mirror to whatever is going on inside between our ears. Yeah, and it's not because it's we're seeing something that's not there, or we're not seeing something that is there. It's just simply, how do we process that information that comes in through our sense organs and goes into our amygdala, then the hippocampus and then to the rest of our brain to try to figure out and but it's well documented that the brain will see whatever the brain wants to See, and a lot of times it's not what the eyes see, because there are lots of experiments you can take with graphics and other things that are illusory. Because, you know, you can see these graphs or prints that look like a spiral that's going around and is moving, but it's actually circles. But the way our brain puts things together, it makes it move. And another way is sounds. If you don't know what a sound is? Your brain is going to make up a story about that sound. And it could be either That's the sound of a frog, or it could be the sound of a somebody getting attacked. It could be the sound of whatever your brain it has to put a label on it, because that's the way the brain has been wired over our couple of hundreds of 1000s of years of evolution. That's how we manage to stay alive, because we make up a story about stuff, and if we're accurate, we live. If we're not accurate, we don't. Yeah, so the a lot of people are very good at making up stories in their head about what they're seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, whatever, because a lot of lot of smells will have psychological responses in our brain. So you know the smell of baby's milk or the smell of mown grass, or, you know smell of something rank, you always will have an instant story about what you just smell. And so when I would spend long periods of time thinking about these things, contemplating them, trying to figure out, well, what does that mean for me? I mean, how does that? How will it looking at this change my life? And basically, what I learned is is that the more objective you can be, the less you make up stories about stuff, the more successful you can be, and the more happy you'll be. Because, for example, there's a term called Mind reading, where people will be listening to somebody talking, and in the back of their mind, they're making up a story about what that person means, or they're making up a story about, well, where is this guy going with this? And it's, you know, it's, it's the opposite of listening, because when listening, you're focusing on the words you're hearing, yes, and then when it's your turn to talk, you can respond appropriately, but most people are thinking while they're hearing and it totally colors their experience, because if they think that this person doesn't like them, then they're going to interpret whatever is being said a certain way. If they think that person does like them, then they will interpret it a completely different way. So it's fascinating to me how people can get the wrong idea about things, because it just is a story that their mind made up to try to explain to them why they're experiencing what they're experiencing. Michael Hingson  42:25 That's why I like to really say that I've learned so much from dogs, because dogs don't do it that way. And as I tell people, dogs don't trust unconditionally. They love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally, but dogs are open to trust, and they're looking for reasons to trust, and they also, by definition, tend to be more objective, and they react to how we react and how we behave and and I think there's so much to be learned by truly taking the time to observe a dog and how they interact with you and how you interact with them, and that's going to make a big difference in how they behave. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  43:11 Well, you could definitely see a difference in the dog's behavior if they've been traumatized. Michael Hingson  43:16 Oh, sure, that's a different story altogether. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  43:19 Yeah, I agree that dogs are extremely innocent. You know, they don't have an agenda. They just want to be loved, and they would, they want to love Michael Hingson  43:31 and they want to know the rules, and they then they're looking to us to tell them what we expect. And there are ways to communicate that too, yes. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  43:41 And you know you all have to is give as a great example of how we should treat each other. Is all you have to do is, you know, a dog will forgive you eventually. And if you're kind to a dog. A dog will just give his entire being to you. Yeah, and it because they don't have any Guile, they don't have any hidden agendas. They just want to be you know, they want to eat. They want to be warm. They want to have fun. They do want to have fun, and so if you treat them timely, you will have a friend for life. Michael Hingson  44:29 Yep, we adopted a dog. We cared for it for a while. It was a geriatric dog at Guide Dogs for the Blind who had apparently had never worked as a guide dog, and she had been mistreated and then sent back to Guide Dogs for the Blind. She was 12. The school was convinced she was totally deaf because she wouldn't react to anything. They dropped a Webster's Dictionary next to her, and she didn't react. But we took her and we started working with her, and. It took several months before she would even take a walk with Karen, and Karen in her, you know, in Karen's wheelchair, and this wonderful golden retriever walking next to her. But the more we worked with her, the more she came out of her shell. She wasn't deaf. I'm sure she was hard of hearing, but you could drop a dictionary and she'd react to it, and if you called her, she would come. But it is all about developing the relationship and showing that you care and they will react. And so she she lived with us for more than three years before she passed, but was a wonderful creature, and we were, we were blessed to have her. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  45:48 Well, go ahead. No, I was just going to comment that I've got three Pomeranians, and they run the place course. You know, it's there. It's amazing how a six pound dog can run your life, but Michael Hingson  46:03 you let them, but you still establish, but you still establish some rules and you know, but that's, that's, yeah, I have a cat who runs the place, but that's okay. Well, we have not talked about, and I do want to talk about it when I first started hearing from you, your emails were all signed, sir, James Gray Robinson, and I always was curious, and you eventually explained it to me. But why don't you tell us all about your title and and all of that? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  46:39 Well, since we last talked, I've had a promotion. Now I'm a baron, so it's Baron James Gray Robinson, Scottish, Baron of Cappadocia. But I belong to a royal order that's known as the Royal Order of Constantine, the great in st Helen, and it was established in 312, 312, 12. Ad, when Constantine, who was the emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, conquered the Western Roman Empire, who it was brother who was the emperor of the Western Roman Empire, and they can then he consolidated the eastern and the western empires. And it was that way until 14 153 when they were defeated by the Solomon Turks. So for 1100 over 1100 years Well, let me back up. The most important battle in that war between the two brothers was the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, which was in Rome and Constantine awarded, rewarded 50 knights, 50 warriors, soldiers who fought on that campaign and carried the day against much superior forces. And he rewarded them by making them knights and giving them land in Turkey, in an area that's known as Cappadocia. And this, if you know anything about Turkey, there's an area which is honeycombed with caves that have been dug out over the millennia, and it's kind of like some body was doing some renovation work, and they broke through the floor, and they went into a cave system that would have been hand dug, and it goes down 17 layers, and it could house 30,000 people. But that was, that was Cappadocia and Constantine the Great charged these warriors with the with the duty to protect the Christian church, because that's because Constantine had converted to Christianity. His mother, Helen, was one of the driving forces in the early Christian church. She's the one that decided to build a cathedral on top of the the nativity, the manger, which is actually a grotto in Bethlehem, I've been there. I spent Christmas Eve there one year. And so the Christianity was just a fledgling religion, and he charged these nights and all successive nights, with the obligation to protect the Christians and to protect the churches. And so a lot of people credit the royal order with advancing the Christian religion. So it's been around since 312 and it's the oldest peerage and a peerage. Is a group of royalty that have knights. They have royalty like Dukes and nobles and that sort of thing. But if you look at other orders that we're aware of, the Knights of Balta didn't get established until about 1200 ad the Knights of the Templar nights, similar thing. They didn't get established till about 1000 years after we did. So it's a very, very ancient, very traditional order that focuses on helping abused women and traffic children. We have, you know, we have a lot of, you know, compassion for those people in the world, and so we are actively supporting those people all over the world. And then on the other side, we have the knights, and we have the women, equivalent of that are called dames, and then we have the nobles who are like barons and other ranks that go all the way up to a prince who is actually related To the King of Spain. So it's been a interesting history, but we can try, we can directly trace our lineage all the way back to 312 and what the you know, we have a couple of reasons for existing, one being the charitable, but also to honor people who have been successful and have accomplished a lot for other people and who care about their fellow man and women, so that we accept Anyone in eight different categories, everywhere from Arts to athletics to entrepreneurship to medicine to heroics. We have a number of veterans that were credible. Have incredible stories. We have a lot of A listers, movie stars, professional athletes, that sort of thing. Also philanthropy. I got in for philanthropy because I've given a lot of money over my life to help people all over the world, and that's one reason why I was awarded the Presidential Lifetime Achievement Award. But we're a group of people. We just today started a Royal Academy of Arts and Sciences because we want to help people all over the world learn things like finances and you arts and crafts and trades and so that people who are oppressed cultures that are in third world countries will be able to learn a good earn a good living, raise their status in life, and then learn how to go on and help other people. So that's very exciting. We've got a lot of things going on with the royal order that are we're growing very rapidly, where somebody said we're 1700 year old startup, but it's, you know, we've gone through some regime changes where people have died and there weren't any heirs, so they've had to go laterally to find somebody to take over. And that's where we are now. You know, interestingly enough, my sons will inherit my title, so it's a true royalty kind of thing, where it passes down by inheritance. But you know, we don't, you know we're, we're hundreds of people in our thing. It's like 300 people in our order right now. We'd like that to be 100,000 times that because we do good work and we foster principles of charity, silvery and honesty, so that we're trying to change the culture around us to where people don't take offense in everything that they're in a society that supports each other and that people can feel safe knowing that there's they have a brother or sister that will support them. Michael Hingson  54:57 Definitely fascinating. I was not familiar with it at all. All until you and I check, yes. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  55:03 Well, it's amazing that me. I guess you have to be somewhat of a history buff. Yeah, and there, and there are lots of service organizations like the Masons and the Shriners and every all the animal ones, the Moose Lodge, the beavers and all these people are doing, you know, charitable work. But not not. Many of them have a royal heritage that goes back to 312 right? So, and we do dress up like knights from time to time, and ladies, and we have swords and we have robes, and we have big parties, and we have gala events, and where we induct more people into our order, and it's all great fun, and it's, you know, and we raise money for charity. So it's a win, win situation. Cool, and it doesn't hurt having Baron on your resume. Michael Hingson  56:08 No, I am sure it doesn't well. I want to thank you for explaining that, and I want to thank you for being here again. This has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad that we had a chance to really talk about humor, which, which is more important, I think, than a lot of people realize. And again, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  56:31 My website is James Gray robinson.com Michael Hingson  56:36 There you go. Easy to spell, easy to get to. So I hope people will do that. And again, I hope that you all enjoyed today, and that you will let me know that you enjoyed it. Please feel free to email me at Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, please give us a five star rating. Go off and read history and learn about the royal order. I think that's probably relevant and important to do as well. And again, if anyone knows anyone who ought to be a guest on the podcast, please let us know. Introduce us. Give us a rating of five stars wherever you're listening. And again, James, I just want to thank you for being here. Excuse me, sir. James. Barron, James, really appreciate you being here, and we'll have to do it again. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  57:24 Well, Michael, my hat's off to you. I think you're doing amazing work. I think you're helping a lot of people. You have a great podcast I've gone on your website or your YouTube, and it's a lot of fun. And I think you're doing a great service for people. Michael Hingson  57:45 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Send us a textGeneral Christopher Donahue, commanding general of U.S. Army Europe and Africa joins Joe for a wide-ranging conversation on leadership, culture, and what it takes to drive real change at scale across massive, dispersed organizations.Having led at the division, corps, and now theater Army level, Donahue reflects on what doesn't change as responsibility grows. Regardless of rank or scope, leaders must still create belief in the why, articulate a clear vision, translate that vision into a workable plan, and embed it into culture and process so change actually sticks.They also explore what is changing rapidly. From the impact of emerging technologies to the realities of modern warfare—where sensing, drones, and data shape every decision—they discuss why leaders must continuously adapt, integrate new tools, and keep developing themselves to stay ahead. The conversation reinforces a timeless truth: while the tools evolve, leadership remains the decisive factor.In this episode, General Donahue and Joe also explore:Why culture without process is just wishful thinkingHow leaders turn intent into execution through clear systems and standardsWhy meaningful change must be measured, not just announcedHow repetition, standards, and accountability build real readinessWhat improved culture looks like when performance rises and negative indicators fallWhy realistic training standards matter—especially under stressAvoiding groupthink by rotating teams and encouraging honest feedbackCreating a climate where people can speak truth to power without fearWhy leaders should never expect to fight the last war againThe growing challenge of offense in a world of constant sensing and surveillanceHow technology, data, and modeling are reshaping how leaders think about risk and capabilityWhy, in the end, it still always comes back to leadershipWhether you're leading a small team or a global organization, this conversation offers a grounded reminder that clarity, discipline, and culture—not slogans—are what allow leaders to turn complexity into coherent action.Watch the full interview our our YouTube ChannelA Special Thanks to Our Sponsors!Veteran-founded Adyton. Step into the next generation of equipment management with Log-E by Adyton. Whether you are doing monthly inventories or preparing for deployment, Log-E is your pocket property book, giving real-time visibility into equipment status and mission readiness. Learn more about how Log-E can revolutionize your property tracking process here!Meet ROGER Bank—a modern, digital bank built for military members, by military members. With early payday, no fees, high-yield accounts, and real support, it's banking that gets you. Funds are FDIC insured through Citizens Bank of Edmond, so you can bank with confidence and peace of mind. 

Host: Roifield BrownProducer: Connor BegleyGuests: Mike Donahue, Mike Holden, Tony AlltradeEpisode summaryThis week, Mid-Atlantic looks at what happens when the “rules-based international order” stops behaving like a system and starts behaving like a slogan. The conversation centres on the US seizure/extraction of Venezuela's president and the eerie normalisation of an act that by the usual standards would be labelled rogue behaviour. From there, the panel widens the lens: spheres of influence, NATO's credibility, Britain's silence, and the uncomfortable possibility that “rogue state” is becoming a category defined by power, not principle.What we coverThe “rules-based order” feels retired: how language about sovereignty and international law collapses when allies break it.Why Britain went quiet: the panel digs into the significance of Keir Starmer's (and the UK government's) muted response—and what that says about the “special relationship.”Foreign policy vs domestic distraction: is this about strategy (oil, BRICS, China/Russia influence), or a political smokescreen (Epstein files, domestic turmoil, midterms)?“Trump pushes until stopped”: the idea that boundary-testing is the method, not a side-effect.Greenland as the next anxiety: not just as a hypothetical, but as a test of whether NATO is a system with teeth or a club with vibes.Spheres of influence, back to the 19th century: are we sliding into a three-bloc world and if so, what replaces the pretence of universal rules?NATO: paper, system, or faith?: argument over whether annexation would shatter the alliance or merely bruise it.The “moral high ground” problem: what the West can and can't say about Russia/Ukraine or China/Taiwan after a precedent like this.Can US institutions stop a rogue executive?: sharp disagreement on whether the military, courts, Congress, or wider civil society can meaningfully constrain Trump.Consequences if the order collapses: sanctions, trade wars, defence spending spikes, market shock, and realignment away from US leadership.A little football palate cleanser: Arsenal title optimism, Burnley survival nerves, Portsmouth loyalty, and a classic Mid-Atlantic sign-off.Key moments & quotes (highlights)Ro: “If that doesn't count as rogue behaviour, then the term has become meaningless.”Mike Donahue: “He'll push and push and push boundaries until someone actually stops him.”Mike Holden: “Yes, any maniac looks strong. But that doesn't mean they're trustworthy.”Tony: “We're almost having to reset… we have no semblance of what is right again.”On NATO/Europe's response: “Very strongly worded diplomatic messages… very strongly worded.”Big questions the episode asksWhat does a world look like when rules become optional?Who gets to break the rules and who gets punished for trying?If the old system is dead, what replaces it: blocs, spheres, or chaos?How does the West criticise Russia or China after this precedent?Is the real battle now internal to the US rather than international?People & accounts mentionedMike Donahue — (social: discussed on-air)Mike Holden — @MikeHolden42Tony (“Alltrade”) — @alltrade_ (Twitter) / Tony on the… / alt aLT (as mentioned)Closing beatThe episode ends where it began: with disbelief, unease, and a running (and increasingly personal) disagreement between Ro and Donahue about whether anyone can stop Trump or whether the rest of the world is simply getting a late invitation to the chaos Americans have already been living through. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Kelly Donahue, a public speaker and consultant with over a decade of experience in the local insurance agency space, joins Insurance Dudes to break down what it really takes to build a profitable, future-ready insurance agency. The conversation explores leadership at the agency-owner level, creating a strong internal culture, and using systems instead of shortcuts to drive sustainable growth. From sales processes and account rounding to marketing, technology, and accountability, this episode highlights how agency owners can align their mission with smart business strategy, adapt to industry changes, and build teams that perform consistently while delivering long-term value.Join the elite ranks of P&C agents. Sign up for Agent Elite today and get exclusive resources to grow your agency!

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Merry Christmas!!! I am celebrating with the topic of rescue, which is exactly wha God did in sending Jesus for us at Christmas. Here is a reading and commentary on my book, To the Rescue! I am reading this book on this YouTube video Get To the Rescue with a 20% discount and free shipping here. Free digital coloring pages are included. I hope you enjoy it! 00:00 Introduction 01:37 Book reading 05:51 Commentary Also, I would like to mention that we have been running this podcast for almost a year and a half. It has been fun and I pray it has been beneficial to you. As you probably know, there are costs involved in production. If you would like to come alongside us and help us with costs, you can click on this link and give any amount. On the checkout page, you will see our plan for gifting back to you, as well. To support the broadcast, click below. https://www.kidstrength4life.com/offers/GNFr7f3W Thank you for being a listener and supporting our broadcast! May you have a blessed and peaceful 2026!

Jeffrey Mosher welcomed back Maureen Donahue Krauss, President & CEO, Detroit Regional Partnership, and was introduced to Scott Cooley, VP, Consulting & Advisory, Hart, Detroit, MI. 1. Welcome back Maureen, for listeners who may be unfamiliar, can you give us a snapshot of the Detroit Regional Partnership and the role it plays in driving growth across the region? 2. When you're out pitching the Detroit region to companies and site selectors, what qualities or advantages rise to the top? What makes this market stand out right now? 3. Your team recently launched the “Get Here” campaign. What inspired it, and how does it help tell the story of the region in a new way? 4. Who are you hoping to reach through this campaign, and how are you defining success as it continues to roll out? 5. The organization has made meaningful progress toward its 10-year goals. As you look to the next four to five years, what are the priorities or opportunities that will shape your path forward? » Visit MBN website: www.michiganbusinessnetwork.com/ » Subscribe to MBN's YouTube: www.youtube.com/@MichiganbusinessnetworkMBN » Like MBN: www.facebook.com/mibiznetwork » Follow MBN: twitter.com/MIBizNetwork/ » MBN Instagram: www.instagram.com/mibiznetwork/ Detroit Regional Partnership's “Get Here” Campaign Showcases the People Driving the Detroit Region's Next Chapter of Growth Developed with Hart, the campaign elevates authentic, people-first storytelling to position the Detroit Region to companies and site selectors globally. DETROIT, MI — As interest in the Detroit Region continues to grow among business leaders, innovators and site selectors, Detroit Regional Partnership (DRP) is shining an even brighter spotlight on the people driving that momentum through its ongoing Get Here campaign. Created in partnership with Hart, the initiative uses authentic, human-centered storytelling to illustrate how the Detroit Region has become one of the most compelling places in the country to build and scale a business.  “Detroit didn't need another list of claims or facts; it needed a story that matched its momentum,” said Scott Cooley, VP of Consulting & Advisory at Hart. “We chose the voice of a rideshare driver because they've seen the region evolve firsthand. About Detroit Regional Partnership Launched in 2019, Detroit Regional Partnership (DRP) is a public-private, 501(c)(3) not-for-profit economic development partnership focused on marketing and business attraction for the 11-county Detroit Region. About Hart Hart is a full-service, independent brand transformation agency helping regions, destinations and middle-market companies grow in the new experience economy.

In this week's episode of MidAtlantic, host Roifield Brown asks whether Donald Trump's corrosive rhetoric is a momentary blip or a seismic shift in the way American presidents speak and more importantly, lead. Is the bar for political discourse permanently lowered, or are we just watching a uniquely toxic figure dominate a uniquely toxic moment?The transatlantic panel includes Steve Krone in LA, Denise Hamilton in Houston, Mike Donahue in the U.S., and Mike Holden in Preston, UK. Together, they grapple with whether Trump's verbal scorched-earth tactics are just personal style or indicative of something more lasting. Krone argues the bigger threat isn't Trump's words but his authoritarian ambitions. Hamilton disagrees, insisting rhetoric and policy now move hand in hand, eroding trust in institutions and in each other. Donahue adds that Trump's cult-like grip on the Republican base makes critique feel futile. “There is no bottom,” he says.From the UK, Holden observes the creeping Trumpian tone in Reform UK's politics. One Reform candidate telling David Lammy MP to “go back where he came from” may be Britain's own grotesque baby step in that direction. But Boris Johnson, for all his rule-breaking, used elevated language. Trumpism in tweed, you might say.So what's the right response? Fight fire with fire or take the high road? The panel is split. Gavin Newsom's choice to hit back with the same kind of crassness raises the question: is this tactical jiu-jitsu or just more degradation of political standards?The conversation closes with a tribute to Rob Reiner, whose films offered a more decent and coherent version of the American story. The contrast is stark and perhaps intentional.Five Key QuotesSteve Krone: “Trump is vile, yes, but has he changed the baseline of political discourse? I don't think so.”Denise Hamilton: “Rhetoric plus policy equals destruction. That's the true Trump legacy.”Mike Donahue: “There is no bottom. We've just given up caring. If you haven't figured out who Trump is by now, there's no hope.”Mike Holden: “Some UK politicians are trying out Trumpism but in lowercase.”Denise Hamilton: “How do you fight a sociopath? Michelle Obama said go high. My mother said gouge their eyes out.”Further Reading & MentionsRob Reiner's Work and TributesRob Reiner's IMDb FilmographyThis Is Spinal Tap (1984)Politics and RhetoricPeople for the American Way (Founded by Norman Lear)Harry Enten's CNN Polling on TrumpTrump's Approval Ratings – FiveThirtyEightGavin Newsom OnlineGavin Newsom on X (Twitter) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Recorded live at MACo's 2025 Winter Conference, this episode features an in-depth, candid conversation with Alex Donahue, Executive Director of the Interagency Commission on School Construction (IAC), on one of the most pressing challenges facing Maryland counties: school construction.Joined by MACo Executive Director Michael Sanderson, Donahue breaks down why school construction costs have risen dramatically, how inflation and funding constraints are straining both state and local budgets, and what the growing backlog of projects means for students, counties, and communities across Maryland.The discussion explores the realities behind capital funding, the limits of existing state programs, the increasing pressure on counties to forward-fund projects, and why collaboration between counties, school systems, and the state is more critical than ever. Donahue also outlines emerging strategies, from energy efficiency and total cost of ownership to flexible facility planning, that can help counties navigate today's challenges while planning responsibly for the future.This live Winter MACoCon session offers valuable insight for county leaders, policymakers, and anyone invested in the long-term sustainability of Maryland's public-school infrastructure.Follow us on Socials!MACo on TwitterMACo on Facebook

JP Donahue started his professional life with a law degree from St. John's University and a big job at a big firm in New York City. He quit one year in to write movies and television scripts. People thought he was nuts, but that choice began a 15-year run as a screenwriter in Los Angeles. He's authored over 25 original, for-hire, and uncredited rewrites for film and television at companies like Warner Bros., Dreamworks, CBS and NBC. He left Hollywood for cannabis in 2009, and after a decade in cultivation, he co-founded, Tropicana Dispensary, created the brand, and grew it into a $20M Superbrand in 18 months. His bold branding broke the mold and still influences cannabis branding today. In 2021, he exited Tropicana and moved to Costa Rica where he currently resides and operates, The Stoned Ape.

Christopher Donahue from Keller Williams Group One joins Brian Cushing, mortgage lender at American Financial Network as they talk about special financing opportunities for "Hero" home buyers. Law Enforcement, EMT's, Health Care Professionals, Educators and Veterans might find these programs helpful in attaining the American dream, home ownership. Any mortgage program that helps buyers buy, also help sellers sell. Today's show might be the answer to both sides of the equation! We'll also look at the statistics on home sales and values from the Sierra Nevada Realtors monthly report. Christopher Donahue: 775-772-2325 or chrisdonahue@kw.com Brian Cushing NMLS #303045: 775-813-9911 or thecushingteam.com Peter Padilla: 775-786-5515 or peter@sageintl.com

Send us a textIn this episode of PhilThe Talks, I am joined by Miles Donahue to talk about his journey in the philosophy of religion. How it started, how he got interested in it academically, what motivates him to publish, and more. If you are interested in studying philosophy at Oxford, then this is the episode for you. We break down how it is like studying at this wonderful institution and how to get in as well.Support the show--------------------------If you would want to support the channel and what I am doing, please follow me on Patreon: www.patreon.com/christianityforall Where else to find Josh Yen: Philosophy YT: https://bit.ly/philforallEducation: https://bit.ly/joshyenBuisness: https://bit.ly/logoseduMy Website: https://joshuajwyen.com/

Joining us first is Kimiko Donahue, whose career spans music and entrepreneurship. She is a recognized singer, the founder of Allegro Insurance Group, and the creator of BizFit Meal Solutions.Then, get ready to meet Jason McKibben from Guild Mortgage. Jason brings a wealth of experience from his time as a football coach at Desert Christian High School and his leadership role as the lead pastor of Remnant of Tucson.

Intentional Visibility for Small Architecture FirmsIn this episode of the EntreArchitect Podcast, Mark R. LePage explores the concept of intentional visibility for small architecture firms with marketing experts Katie Alessi and Kelly Donahue. Together, they unpack what it truly means to be visible in a crowded market and how small firms can strategically connect their message to the right audience. Listeners will gain clarity on how to define their ideal client and make consistent marketing decisions that support long-term growth.Katie and Kelly share real-world insights from decades of experience helping AEC firms build brands that resonate. They break down the difference between marketing and public relations, offering actionable steps for architects who feel unsure where to start. Through practical examples and approachable strategies, they show how intentional visibility can transform a firm's reputation and attract the right kind of work.The conversation also touches on the evolving role of AI in marketing and the importance of staying consistent, even when results take time. By the end, listeners will feel empowered to align their marketing efforts with their values and goals—proving that visibility isn't about shouting the loudest, but about showing up with purpose.This week at EntreArchitect Podcast, Intentional Visibility for Small Architecture Firms with Katie Alessi and Kelly Donahue.Learn more about Katie and Kelly at Trifecta Collaborative, and connect with them on LinkedIn: Katie & Kelly. Please Visit Our Platform SponsorsArcatemy is Arcat's Continuing Education Program. Listen to Arcat's Detailed podcast and earn HSW credits. As a trusted provider, Arcat ensures you earn AIA CE credits while advancing your expertise and career in architecture. Learn more at Arcat.com/continuing-education.Visit our Platform Sponsors today and thank them for supporting YOU... The EntreArchitect Community of small firm architects.Mentioned in this episode:SpacesContext & ClarityBuild Your Brand

With the right protocols (and the right team!), urology clinics can proactively manage the side effects of intravesical therapy. This in-studio episode from the 2025 NMIBC Creator Weekend™ series features unique perspectives from Vanderbilt nurse practitioner Meredith Donahue and surgical neuro-oncology nurse Brynn Moore, a surgical neuro-oncology nurse, both with focuses in urologic oncology. Hosted by Dr. Ruchika Talwar, we cover the practical and logistical considerations in intravesical therapy administration. --- This podcast is supported by: Ferring Pharmaceuticalshttps://www.ferring.com/home-classic/people-and-families/uro-uro-oncology/bladder-cancer/ --- SYNPOSIS Donahue and Moore share their experiences with intravesical therapy, discussing practical issues such as patient management, scheduling, and handling side effects. They emphasize the importance of creating a supportive environment in clinics, proactive treatment plans, and ensuring effective communication among the multidisciplinary team. They also share resources and tips for nurses and nurse practitioners new to urologic oncology. --- TIMESTAMPS 00:00 - Introduction07:09 - Multidisciplinary Team Dynamics11:34 - Resources for Patients18:55 - Transvaginal Estrogen Cream26:56 - Optimizing Intravesical Therapy Clinics35:57 - The Importance of Multidisciplinary Collaboration36:27 - Conclusion

In her role as poet, Rachel Donahue has a track record of gathering other poets, encouraging them in their work, and giving them space to shine. In her role as publisher and editor at Bandersnatch Books, she has done all those things for poets by envisioning, then bringing to life I’ve Got a Bad Case of Poetry, an anthology of poems for children by dozens of poets, gorgeously illustrated by Emily J. Person. In this episode, Jonathan Rogers speaks with both Rachel and Emily about the origins of A Bad Case of Poetry, the joys of creating in community, and the role of delight in the making of art—especially art for children. To get I've Got a Bad Case of Poetry by Christmas, preorder at Kickstarter before December 5.Support the show: https://therabbitroom.givingfuel.com/memberSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Our guest on this episode of The Member Engagement Show is Georgina Donahue, Higher Logic's Director of Community Innovation and AI Strategy. With over 10 years in community leadership (having started out as a community manager) Georgina shares her wealth of expertise in community leadership, and user-focused community advocacy. Topics covered include: How community is the engine that drives alignment between organizations and members. Tips for growing online communities, based on Georgina's experience taking a community she managed from 0 to 50,000 members. Key metrics for measuring the success of a community. How to get leadership buy-in for community Busy vs. meaningful engagement. Engagement myths…busted! Tips to drive the member journey, from onboarding to advocacy Selling the importance of community internally. Community and member engagement trends for the year ahead. A sneak peek from Kelly at some insights from the upcoming Member Engagement Report.   Helpful Links Peggy Hoffman episode on community volunteering Community Manager Toolkit  

How Gerrymandering has backfired on its proponents.

Peter Donahue joins Andy to recap his year of golf. They discuss dealing with change, learning from experience, and much more!

Literary horror author William J. Donahue returns for episode 291 with a fascinating sample chapter from his latest novel, Find Your Way Back To Me!  William J Donahue website with social media links Find Your Way Back To Me on Amazon William's Podcast, Taming Monsters with Dirty Rotten Bill Our interview with William J Donahue in episode 290 Try some creativity music for free on YouTube here! Please find out more about Jason and his books here Contact the show via email: samplechapterpodcast@gmail.com

Hey Dream listeners! First of all, we want to thank everyone who's joined our supercast channel over the last few weeks (only $5 a month for ad free episodes!) It helps us so much and keeps us from having to overload the Dream feed with more ad spots than we already have. When you join the Supercast channel we become more independent and less beholden to advertisers we don't know and often don't know about! If you haven't joined yet, please consider it and know your support means the world to us:https://thedream.supercast.comNow! On to the show. It's Halloween and host Jane Marie is diving into the darkness with journalist, writer and podcaster, Sarah Marshall, about her knew podcast "The Devil You Know". What we're talking about here is top grade 80's christian- right hysteria, mixed with the rise of Oprah, Donahue and daytime TV sensationalism AND recovered memory therapy! Get on board, we're heading back in time, looking for satan!Listen to "The Devil You Know" here:https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-podcasts/2054-the-devil-you-know-with-sarah-marshallFind more from Sarah Marshall here:Instagrams: iamsarahmarshallThreads: @ms.sarahmarshallWebsite: remembersarahmarshall.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On today's 94 WIP Morning Show, the crew discussed the Eagles recent trade for CB Michael Carter II, and how it will impact the Eagles secondary. Jason Kelce, in-studio, discusses the potential options the team could employ, including moving Cooper DeJean to outside cornerback. Kelce also discussed the state of the offensive line, with Brett Toth looking more and more comfortable at center. Also, Tyrese Maxey and VJ Edgecombe already have a great rapport as the Sixers stay hot to start the season. Ben Davis joined the show, in-studio, to offer his insights into the Phillies offseason. Kyle Schwarber's contract will be the main headline for the team this winter.

This week, we talk about what the decaying internet means for regular people – especially those who rely on janky, corporate owned hosting platforms to maintain archives of their work, or cherished old memories.  Alexis and Helen outline the scale of the problem, and explain why, despite its  urgency, few tech companies are interested in the work of preserving and conserving our data.  We then talk about the work of volunteer and non-profit organisations, including the Accessible Archivists Coalition,  working to preserve older versions of the internet, and discuss some of the strategies you can employ at home to extract your online history, and the tools you can use to preserve it for the future.  Read Helen and Alexis' articles here: https://substack.com/@helenvogelsong/p-175209993 https://substack.com/@helenvogelsong/p-170750885 Subscribe to Cache & Burn : https://cacheandburn.substack.com/?utm_campaign=profile_chips Subscribe to Daiquiri Chat: https://daiquiriheiress.substack.com/?utm_campaign=profile_chips Support the Accessible Archivists Coalition: https://theaac.substack.com/?utm_campaign=profile_chips ------- PALESTINE  AID LINKS -You can donate to Medical Aid for Palestinians and other charities using the links below. https://www.map.org.uk/donate/donate https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/how-you-can-help/emergencies/gaza-israel-conflict -Palestinian Communist Youth Union, which is doing a food and water effort, and is part of the official communist party of Palestine https://www.gofundme.com/f/to-preserve-whats-left-of-humanity-global-solidarity -Water is Life, a water distribution project in North Gaza affiliated with an Indigenous American organization and the Freedom Flotilla https://www.waterislifegaza.org/ -Vegetable Distribution Fund, which secured and delivers fresh veg, affiliated with Freedom Flotilla also https://www.instagram.com/linking/fundraiser?fundraiser_id=1102739514947848 -Thamra, which distributes herb and veg seedlings, repairs and maintains water infrastructure, and distributes food made with replanted veg patches https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-thamra-cultivating-resilience-in-gaza -------- PHOEBE ALERT Okay, now that we have your attention; check out her Substack Here! Check out Masters of our Domain with Milo and Patrick, here! -------- Ten Thousand Posts is a show about how everything is posting. It's hosted by Hussein (@HKesvani), Phoebe (@PRHRoy) and produced by Devon (@Devon_onEarth).  

For Halloween week, episode 290 welcomes literary horror author William J. Donahue! Listen as he and Jason discuss what influenced his interest in horror, why love is so important even in horror, what a "hatman" is, and more! Be sure to click the links below for his latest novel, Find Your Way Back To Me, available now! William J Donahue website with social media links Find Your Way Back To Me on Amazon William's Podcast, Taming Monsters with Dirty Rotten Bill Find out more about Jason and his books here Contact the show via email: samplechapterpodcast@gmail.com

A lot of eyes will be on the Hawkeyes and Nittany Lions this weekend when Penn State travels to Kinnick Stadium. It's the first game of the post-James Franklin era. There are few teams that have had a more hectic week than Penn State. 247Sports' Tyler Donahue joins David Eickholt to break everything down. What have the issues been with Penn State defense this season? Did Drew Allar get too much blame for the problems on the offense? Will the talent of Penn State come out with a fire or will they go on cruise control for the rest of the season. Donohue breaks all of that down and much more. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joining us on the podcast today is Areo Donahue, the creator behind God's Greenhouse from Minno. Areo has a passion to reach preschoolers with the big Gospel story as a former kids ministry leader and now a tv show creator! In this episode, we talk about how to plant seeds of the Gospel through play, songs, and bite-sized truths. Resources Mentioned: Kids Ministry MasterclassMinno God's Greenhouse

This week it's one of the greats: Julia Roberts. Selling shoes, love letters, a weatherman on Donahue, and the mystery elves that are insurance. “Abandonment can be funny!” …on an all-new SmartLess. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of SmartLess ad-free and a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Send us a textI'm super excited to share Today's conversation with you. My guest is Laura Donahue, a spiritual guide whose work bridges the mystical and the practical in a way that is both empowering and deeply grounded. Through astrology, tarot, and Human Design, Laura helps people uncover their soul's blueprint and reconnect with their inner wisdom — not just in theory, but in a way that can be meaningfully applied to real life.With her signature blend of depth, clarity, and heart-centered insight, Laura guides her clients and audiences toward alignment with their authentic design — so they can experience prosperity, love, and purpose from a place of flow, not force.I love astrology and Laura is incredibly knowledgeable, she has a gift for making these ancient systems feel not only accessible, but truly practical. In this chat she shares what led her to astrology and how it's not just about self-discovery — It's about learning to live well, in a way that's uniquely right for you.Whether you're curious about your cosmic blueprint or simply looking for a deeper connection to yourself, you're in for a beautiful and inspiring conversation.CONNECT WITH LAURA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ladyladonna_/If you enjoyed this episode, please FOLLOW, RATE, REVIEW & SHARE!! It truly makes a difference and helps others to receive this meaningful content. Thanks!Good is What Makes You Feel Well is Mamma Terra's PodcastCONNECT WITH MAMMA TERRA HEALTH COACHING:Sign up for our free weekly newsletter: HEREWebsite: www.mammaterrahc.comInstagram: @mammaterrahcFacebook: MammaTerra.HCLinkedIn: Anna ResendeIf you have an experience or a story you think might inspire or help people listening to this podcast, use the link below to schedule an interview with me.Schedule your interview here!Intro Music "Levitar" credits to Ricardo Ulpiano, Thiago Peixoto, Marcelo Luciano Menino, and Anderson Rodrigo de Oliveira.Podcast art credits to Caroline Kohls - Instagram @carol.kohls.fotography Thanks for tuning in!

Art Bell - Aaron C. Donahue - Lucifer Pan and Time Travel

In this episode, Andrew Pudewa and Julie Walker talk with Donahue Academy’s Dr. Marc Snyder, principal, and Deacon Edward Watson, assistant principal for curriculum and instruction. They share how and why Donahue Academy has chosen to use IEW, why classical education is growing, and how the IEW Schools Department can assist schools with implementing the Structure and Style® methodology. Referenced Materials Donahue Academy Dr. Marc Snyder, Ed.D. Deacon Edward Watson, M.S.E Teacher Training Method Options: Live On-Site Professional Development Structure and Style for Students “Writing across the Curriculum and Why It Matters” Theme-Based Writing Lessons Why Donahue Academy Chose IEW video If you have questions for Andrew, send them to podcast@IEW.comPerhaps your question will be answered at the next Ask Andrew Anything (AAA). If you have questions about IEW products or classes, contact customer service at 800.856.5815 or info@IEW.com

Before the Pink Ribbon, talking about breast cancer was taboo. In this episode, we uncover the shocking and inspiring history of breast cancer awareness and the three women who defied a dismissive medical establishment to save millions of lives. Author Judith L. Pearson joins us to discuss her groundbreaking book, "Radical Sisters," revealing how Shirley Temple Black, Rose Kushner, and Evelyn Lauder launched a revolution from their hospital beds and boardrooms. How did a child star, a determined journalist, and a cosmetics mogul tear down the wall of silence and change medicine forever?This deep dive into the evolution of breast cancer advocacy explores the dark ages of treatment and the courageous fight for patient rights. Judith L. Pearson details the brutal radical mastectomy history, specifically the disfiguring Halstead radical mastectomy, a procedure that persisted long after it was proven ineffective. We revisit the pivotal moment of Shirley Temple Black breast cancer advocacy when the beloved star held an unprecedented 1972 press conference from her hospital room, urging women not to be afraid and to perform self-exams. The episode then follows the tenacious activist Rose Kushner and the one-step procedure, a barbaric practice where women went in for a biopsy and woke up with their breasts removed without their consent. Kushner's relentless research and in-your-face advocacy, including a daring appearance on the Donahue show, forced the medical community to confront its paternalism. Finally, we explore the origins of the Evelyn Lauder Pink Ribbon Campaign and her "department store" concept for cancer care at Memorial Sloan Kettering, which was born from the frustrating and fragmented patient experience. This interview sheds light on the complete history of breast cancer awareness, from comparing the fight for funding to the AIDS movement to the discovery of the BRCA gene mutation, revealing a story of courage, tragedy, and ultimate triumph.About Our Guest:Judith L. Pearson is an author and historical biographer specializing in uncovering the stories of overlooked heroes. In her book, "Radical Sisters: The Women Who Pushed for and Paved the Way to Breast Cancer Awareness," she reveals the untold story of the three women whose personal battles and public advocacy transformed medicine and created the modern breast cancer movement.Timestamps / Chapters:(00:00) The Three Women Who Transformed Breast Cancer Awareness(03:31) Shirley Temple Black's Groundbreaking 1972 Announcement(06:05) Rose Kushner's Daring Appearance on the Donahue Show(09:07) The Near-Death Experiences That Shaped the "Radical Sisters"(14:38) How Shirley Temple's Press Conference Changed Everything(19:22) The Brutal History of the Halstead Radical Mastectomy(24:19) Rose Kushner's Fight Against the "One-Step Procedure"(29:56) Evelyn Lauder's Philanthropic Vision Before and After Her Diagnosis(32:28) Learning from the AIDS Movement to Fight for Funding(36:04) Evelyn Lauder's "Department Store" Concept for Cancer Care(40:10) The True Origin Story of the Pink Ribbon Campaign

Rafe invites his sister, Big Brain Smart Head™ Maura Donahue, to discuss her recent adventures with shepherding a flock of monarch butterfly caterpillars from hatching to chrysalis stage.  The discussion is one filled with wonder and awe, a conversation edged with the understanding that everyday processes that take place mostly unseen in Nature are nothing short of miraculous.*****As always, you can reach the Buf at bufnagle@bufnagle.com*****As you know, this is an independent podcast so your hosts also carry all the expenses of running this podcast. As such, some of you have asked how you can help out. Well, here's the answer: support us on Buy Me a Coffee:https://buymeacoffee.com/bufnagleOn this page, you can do a really nice thing like send us a couple dollars to help cover the cost of recording and hosting and microphones and research and all that. Any little bit really helps! Thank you in advance!!!

“Compliance missteps can shut a company down, but the right legal partner can also unlock growth.” – Jonathan Marashlian, Managing Partner, The CommLaw Group At Navigate 25, Doug Green, Publisher of Technology Reseller News, sat down with Jonathan Marashlian of Marashlian & Donahue, The CommLaw Group, to discuss the evolving communications ecosystem, regulatory risks, and why specialized legal guidance has never been more critical. Marashlian reflected on his firm's two decades advising communications providers, from the early days of VoIP through today's cloud-native era. He highlighted the impact of Alianza's merger with Metaswitch as a pivotal ecosystem development—one that positions providers to meet demand for both legacy and cloud services in a diverse, fast-evolving market. Key insights from the conversation: Execution matters: Acquisitions alone don't guarantee success; vision, agility, and customer understanding are essential. The compliance burden: States such as California and Massachusetts are extending regulatory authority into VoIP, adding to already complex federal and tax compliance rules. Legal specialization is essential: Telecom law requires industry-specific expertise; general counsel may not anticipate emerging risks like robocall mitigation enforcement. Ecosystem thinking: The CommLaw Group, together with its companion Compliance Group, blends legal and consulting services—providing scalable options from fixed-fee compliance work to high-level legal strategy. Growth through guidance: Beyond avoiding penalties, effective legal partnerships help providers navigate expansion, M&A, and new market opportunities. As Marashlian stressed, the pace of technology far outstrips regulation. Providers that invest in experienced legal and compliance partnerships are better positioned not only to survive but to thrive. Learn more at The CommLaw Group.

How do you get your organization trained up to use AI tools? Richard talks to Stephanie Donahue about her work implementing AI tools at Avanade and with Avanade's customers. Stephanie discusses how many workers are bringing their own AI tools, such as ChatGPT, to work and the risks that represent to the organization. Having an approved set of tools helps people work in the right direction, but they will still need some education. The challenge lies in the rapidly shifting landscape and the lack of certifications. However, you'll have some individuals eager to utilize these tools, often on the younger side, and they can help build your practice. The opportunities are tremendous!LinksChatGPT EnterpriseLearning M365 CopilotSecure and Govern Microsoft 365 CopilotMicrosoft PurviewResponsible AI at MicrosoftMicrosoft Viva EngageRecorded July 18, 2025

Saugatuck Art in the Park Sept. 13, 2025, 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. Sponsored by author LeAnne Kelley, Moravian Sons Distillery and Doc Chavent. Since 2016, Anna Donahue dedicated her time to sharing her business secrets to success with fellow artists. Over these last few years, Anna helped over 1,000 artists move from hobbyists to career artists who can make a living on their work. Her creation and continued work at Art in the Park Saugatuck continues to inspire new artists and change lives. Forty-two vendors will be at Art in the Park in Saugatuck including authors Emma Palova and Jean Davis. For a full list go to https://emmapalova.com   Copyright (c) 2025. Emma Blogs, LLC.  All rights reserved.

Dan speaks with planetary scientist Grant Donahue to talk about the positive and the negatives of using AI and how it will change the future.

"When you are struggling to take action, break big goals into small, actionable steps.Persistence isn't about giant leaps, but about steady, continual progress—however small."Episode SummaryIn this episode, Big Keith and I welcomed Conor Donahue, a former Navy SEAL and CEO/co-founder of Ace Virtual Shooting, to The Gun Experiment. We dove into Conor's transition from military service to the tech-entrepreneurial world, exploring how his experiences shaped both his character and the innovative product he's helping bring to the firearm training community. Conor shared personal insights into the importance of mentorship, faith, adaptability, teamwork, and the drive behind Ace XR's industry-leading virtual reality shooting simulator.We discussed the benefits and practicalities of virtual gun training, the challenges (and surprising fun) of dry fire practice, and how community and technology are reshaping the shooting sports landscape. Plus, Conor joined us for a live review and behind-the-scenes look at the ongoing innovation happening at Ace Virtual Shooting—and yes, we also put him through our Run and Gun lightning round.Call to Action1. Join our mailing list: Thegunexperiment.com2. Subscribe and leave us a comment on Apple or Spotify3. Follow us on all of our social media: Instagram Twitter Youtube Facebook4. Be a part of our growing community, join our Discord page!5. Grab some cool TGE merch6. Ask us anything at AskMikeandKeith@gmail.com5. Be sure to support the sponsors of the show. They're a big part of making the show possible.Show SponsorsSpecial thanks to OnSite Firearms Training—our longest-standing sponsor. They bring world-class firearms instruction in a safe, challenging environment, with incredible guest instructors like Jared Reston. Whether you're new or seeking to perfect your skills, check them out!Shout-out to Ace Virtual Shooting for providing us with cutting-edge gear and an immersive, fun, and skill-building training tool.Key TakeawaysMentorship shapes our trajectory: Conor credits mentors from Scouting, the military, and his faith community for guiding his career and values.Faith and adversity build character: Hurdles in Conor's youth and experience in the SEALs forged grit, humility, and perseverance.The transition from service to entrepreneurship isn't always easy: Identity and purpose beyond the uniform are topics every veteran (and leader) faces.Adaptability and teamwork are as essential in business as in the Teams.Supplement, don't substitute: Tools like Ace VR are powerful supplements but no replacement for live fire training.Community matters: The Ace XR platform isn't just a training...

8/14/25. Northampton Police Chief John D. Cartledge on community policing. Tom Peake, of the Donahue Institute, on the benefits of gambling. Professor emeritus of peace and world security studies Michael Klare on Trump vs Putin meeting. WRSI's Steve Sanderson on 35th “Transformance.”

In this episode of Coaching In Session, host Michael Rearden sits down with Dr. Jenn Donahue—retired U.S. Navy Captain, engineer, and leadership strategist—to explore what it takes to lead with confidence in today's ever-evolving world.Drawing on 27 years of military experience, including combat deployments and commanding teams of up to 1,800 personnel, Jenn shares her journey through imposter syndrome, near-death experiences, and engineering feats under pressure. This powerful conversation digs into the heart of leadership: trust, empathy, and the courage to grow through fear.Whether you're leading in the boardroom or the battlefield of everyday life, Jenn's insights on team dynamics, self-awareness, and mentorship will leave you with practical strategies and fresh inspiration to lead with clarity and resilience.Key Takeaways: ✅ Leadership can be learned, not just innate ✅ Mentorship is crucial for personal growth ✅ Preparation can alleviate anxiety in leadership roles ✅ Understanding team strengths is key to setting expectations ✅ Empathy is increasingly important in leadership today ✅ Time management is a common struggle for teams ✅ Recognition and appreciation can enhance team morale ✅ Leaders should adapt to modern expectations of their teams ✅ Trust is the foundation of effective leadership ✅ Continuous learning is essential for leadersGuest Links:

Andy Donahue: Minnesota State Director of the Small Business Development Center (SBDC). Join us for a conversation with a statewide leader who has dedicated his career to supporting small businesses. Andy's journey has taken him from his early days at Wells Fargo, to serving as a regional SBDC director in Wisconsin, and ultimately back to his hometown of Duluth to lead Minnesota's SBDC network. Across nine regional centers, Andy and his team help entrepreneurs at every stage—whether launching a startup, expanding their operations, or navigating the challenges of long-term growth and sustainability. In this episode, he shares the collaborative efforts driving local economic development and the inspiring stories of working shoulder-to-shoulder with small business owners.

 Dan speaks with planetary scientist Grant Donahue on what living in space would actually be like, and if that is more desirable than living on earth.

Clicks dropping while impressions remain stable? SEO Director Donna Donahue from Antylia Scientific shares her current approach to this exact challenge. She emphasizes the importance of frequent site crawling, establishing benchmarks before making changes, and proper URL mapping during transitions. Donahue also recommends implementing monitoring systems to track the impact of pivots and analyzing competitor content that appears in AI-generated search results.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Will page speed matter in AI search? Donna Donahue from Antylia Scientific examines the evolving relationship between page speed and AI-driven search results. She argues that while technical performance remains important for crawlers, content quality will continue to be the dominant ranking factor. Donahue also highlights the irony that Google's own tracking tools often contribute to page speed issues while simultaneously penalizing sites for slow performance.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In episode 127, Ste sits down with Jacob Donahue, who is documenting his journey from NCAA hockey to future CrossFit Games athlete.  Ste and Jacob have an in-depth conversation about the vulnerability and harsh realities of becoming a content creator, as well as the muse mindset. Jacob also shares unique insights on protecting your creativity, discipline, and consistency in the age of AI.  Radical Health Radio is produced by Heart & Soil, a beef organ supplements company helping hundreds of thousands of people achieve radical health. Heart & Soil was founded by Dr. Paul Saladino, a double board-certified MD and founder of the animal-based eating philosophy. Visit heartandsoil.co to reclaim your birthright to radical health with the most nutrient-dense foods on the planet.

You are in for a real treat on this episode. My guest this time is Greg Schwem. Greg is a corporate comedian. What is a corporate comedian? You probably can imagine that his work has to do with corporations, and you would be right. Greg will explain much better than I can. Mr. Schwem began his career as a TV journalist but eventually decided to take up what he really wanted to do, be a comedian. The story of how he evolved is quite fascinating by any standard. Greg has done comedy professionally since 1989. He speaks today mostly to corporate audiences. He will tell us how he does his work. It is quite interesting to hear how he has learned to relate to his audiences. As you will discover as Greg and I talk, we often work in the same way to learn about our audiences and thus how we get to relate to them. Greg has written three books. His latest one is entitled “Turning Gut Punches into Punch Lines: A Comedian's Journey Through Cancer, Divorce and Other Hilarious Stuff”. As Greg says, “Don't worry, it's not one of those whiny, ‘woe is me,' self- serving books. Instead, it's a hilarious account of me living the words I've been preaching to my audiences: You can always find humor in every situation, even the tough ones. Greg offers many interesting observations as he discusses his career and how he works. I think we all can find significant lessons we can use from his remarks. About the Guest: Hi! I'm Greg Schwem. a Chicago-based business humor speaker and MC who HuffPost calls “Your boss's favorite comedian.” I've traveled the world providing clean, customized laughs to clients such as Microsoft, IBM, McDonald's and even the CIA. I also write the bi-weekly Humor Hotel column for the Chicago Tribune syndicate. I believe every corporate event needs humor. As I often tell clients, “When times are good, people want to laugh. When times are bad, people need to laugh.” One Fortune 500 client summed things up perfectly, saying “You were fantastic and just what everybody needed during these times.” In September 2024 I released my third and most personal book, Turning Gut Punches into Punch Lines: A Comedian's Journey Through Cancer, Divorce and Other Hilarious Stuff. Don't worry, it's not one of those whiny, “woe is me,” self-serving books. Instead, it's a hilarious account of me living the words I've been preaching to my audiences: You can always find humor in every situation, even the tough ones. You can pick up a copy at Amazon or select book stores. Ways to connect with Greg: Website: www.gregschwem.com YouTube: www.youtube.com/gregschwem LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/gregschwem Instagram: www.instagram.com/gregschwem X: www.x.com/gregschwem About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Hi everyone, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Today we are going to definitely have some fun. I'll tell you about our guests in a moment, but first, I want to tell you about me. That'll take an hour or so. I am Michael Hingson, your host, and you're listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And I don't know, we may get inclusion or diversity into this, but our guest is Greg Schwem. Greg used to be a TV reporter, now he's a comedian, not sure which is funnier, but given some of the reporters I've seen on TV, they really should go into tonight club business. But anyway, Greg, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. I really appreciate you being here and taking the time   Greg Schwem ** 02:04 Well, Michael, it is an honor to be included on your show. I'm really looking forward to the next hour of conversation. I   Speaker 1 ** 02:10 told Greg a little while ago, one of my major life ambitions that I never got to do was to go to a Don Rickles concert and sit in the front row so that hopefully he would pick on me, so that I could say, Yeah, I saw you once on TV, and I haven't been able to see since. What do you think of that? You hockey puck, but I never got to do it. So very disappointed. But everybody has bucket list moments, everybody has, but they don't get around to I'm sorry. Yeah, I know. Well, the other one is, I love to pick on Mike Wallace. I did a radio show for six years opposite him in 60 minutes, and I always love to say that Wallace really had criminal tendencies, because he started out being an announcer in radio and he announced things like The Green Hornet and the Sky King and other shows where they had a lot of criminals. So I just figured he had to be associated with criminals somewhere in his life. Of course, everybody picked on him, and he had broad shoulders. And I again, I regret I never got to to meet him, which is sort of disappointing. But I did get to meet Peter Falk. That was kind of fun.   Greg Schwem ** 03:15 Mike Wallace to Peter Falk. Nice transition there. I know.   Michael Hingson ** 03:21 Well I am really glad you're with us. So why don't we start? We'll start with the serious part. Why don't you tell us, kind of about the early Greg schwim and growing up and all that sort of stuff, just to set the stage, as it were,   Greg Schwem ** 03:34 how far back you want to go? You want to go back to Little League, or you want to   Speaker 1 ** 03:37 just, oh, start at the beginning, a long time ago, right? I was a   Greg Schwem ** 03:41 very strange child. No, I you. You obviously introduced me as a as a comedian, and that is my full time job. And you also said that I was a former journalist, and that is my professional career. Yes, I went from, as I always like to say, I went from depressing people all day long, to making them laugh. And that's, that's kind of what I did. I always did want to be I majored in Journalism at Northwestern University, good journalism school. Originally, I always wanted to be a television reporter. That was as a professional career I was, I dabbled in comedy. Started when I was 16. That is the first time I ever got on stage at my school, my high school, and then at a comedy club. I was there one of the first comedy clubs in Chicago, a place called the comedy cottage. It was in the suburb of beautiful, beautiful suburb of Rosemont, Illinois, and they were one of the very, very first full time comedy clubs in the nation. And as a 16 year old kid, I actually got on stage and did five minutes here and five minutes there. And thought I was, I was hot stuff, but I never, ever thought I would do it for a living. I thought comedy would always be just a hobby. And I. Especially when I went to college, and I thought, okay, Northwestern is pretty good school, pretty expensive school. I should actually use my degree. And I did. I moved down to Florida, wrote for a newspaper called The Palm Beach post, which, don't let that title fool you. It's Palm Beach was a very small segment of of the area that it was, that it served, but I did comedy on the side, and just because I moved down there, I didn't know anybody, so I hung out at comedy clubs just to have something to do. And little by little, comedy in the late 80s, it exploded. Exploded. There were suddenly clubs popping up everywhere, and you were starting to get to know guys that were doing these clubs and were starting to get recognition for just being comedians. And one of them opened up a very, very good Club opened up about 10 minutes from my apartment in West Palm Beach, and I hung out there and started to get more stage time, and eventually started to realize at the same time that I was getting better as a comedian, I was becoming more disillusioned as a journalist in terms of what my bosses wanted me to report on and the tone they wanted me to use. And I just decided that I would I would just never be able to live with myself if I didn't try it, if I didn't take the the plunge into comedy, and that's what I did in 1989 and I've been doing it ever since. And my career has gone in multiple directions, as I think it needs to. If you're going to be in show business and sustain a career in show business, you have to wear a lot of different hats, which I feel like I've done.   Michael Hingson ** 06:40 So tell me more about that. What does that mean exactly?   Greg Schwem ** 06:43 Well, I mean, I started out as a what you would pretty much if somebody said, If you heard somebody say, I'm a comedian, they would envision some guy that just went to comedy clubs all the time, and that's what I did. I was just a guy that traveled by car all over the Midwest and the Southeast primarily, and did comedy clubs, but I quickly realized that was kind of a going nowhere way to attack it, to do comedy unless you were incredibly lucky, because there were so many guys doing it and so many clubs, and I just didn't see a future in it, and I felt like I had to separate myself from the pack a little bit. And I was living in Chicago, which is where I'm from, and still, still exist. Still reside in Chicago, and I started to get involved with a company that did live trade show presentations. So if you've ever been on a trade show floor and you see people, they're mostly actors and actresses that wear a headset and deliver a spiel, a pitch, like every, every twice an hour, about some company, some new product, and so forth. And I did that, and I started to write material about what I was seeing on trade show floors and putting it into my stand up act, stuff about business, stuff about technology, because I was Hawking a lot of new computers and things like that. This was the mid 90s when technology was exploding, and I started to put this into my stand up act. And then I'd have people come up to me afterwards and say, hey, you know those jokes you did about computers and tech support, if you could come down to our office, you know, we're having a golf tournament, we're having a Christmas party, we would love to hear that material. And little by little, I started transitioning my act into doing shows for the corporate market. I hooked up with a corporate agent, or the corporate agent heard about me, and started to open a lot of doors for me in terms of working for very large corporations, and that's pretty much what I've been doing. I stopped working clubs, and I transitioned, instead of being a comedian, I became a corporate humor speaker. And that's what I do, primarily to this day, is to speak at business conferences. Just kind of get people to loosen up, get them to laugh about what they do all day without without making it sound like I'm belittling what they do. And also when I'm not doing that, I work about eight to 10 weeks a year on cruise ships, performing for cruise audiences. So that's a nice getaway.   Speaker 1 ** 09:18 It's interesting since I mentioned Don Rickles earlier, years ago, I saw an interview that he did with Donahue, and one of the things that Don Rickles said, and after he said it, I thought about it. He said, I really don't want to pick on anyone who's going to be offended by me picking on them. He said, I try to watch really carefully, so that if it looks like somebody's getting offended, I'll leave them alone, because that's not what this is all about. It isn't about abusing people. It's about trying to get people to have fun, and if somebody's offended, I don't want to to pick on them, and I've heard a number of albums and other things with him and just. Noticed that that was really true. He wouldn't pick on someone unless they could take it and had a lot of fun with it. And I thought that was absolutely interesting, because that certainly wasn't, of course, the rep that he had and no, but it was   Greg Schwem ** 10:16 true. It is, and it doesn't take long to see as a as a comedian, when you're looking at an audience member and you're talking to them, it, you can tell very quickly, Are they enjoying this? Are they enjoying being the center of attention? A lot of people are, or are they uncomfortable with it? Now, I don't know that going in. I mean, I you know, of course. And again, that's a very small portion of my show is to talk to the audience, but it is something particularly today. I think audiences want to be more involved. I think they enjoy you talk you. Some of these, the new comedians in their 20s and 30s and so forth. Them, some of them are doing nothing, but what they call crowd work. So they're just doing 45 minutes of talking to the audience, which can be good and can be rough too, because you're working without a net. But I'm happy to give an audience a little bit of that. But I also have a lot of stuff that I want to say too. I mean, I work very hard coming up with material and and refining it, and I want to talk about what's going on in my life, too. So I don't want the audience to be the entire show, right?   Speaker 1 ** 11:26 And and they shouldn't be, because it isn't about that. But at the same time, it is nice to involve them. I find that as a keynote and public speaker, I find that true as well, though, is that audiences do like to be involved. And I do some things right at the outset of most talks to involve people, and also in involving them. I want to get them to last so that I start to draw them in, because later, when I tell the September 11 story, which isn't really a humorous thing. Directly,   Greg Schwem ** 12:04 i know i Good luck. I'm spinning 911 to make it I don't think I've ever heard anybody say, by the way, I was trapped in a building. Stick with me. It's kind of cute. It's got a funny ending. And   Speaker 1 ** 12:20 that's right, and it is hard I can, I can say humorous things along the way in telling the story, but, sure, right, but, but clearly it's not a story that, in of itself, is humorous. But what I realized over the years, and it's really dawned on me in the last four or five years is we now have a whole generation of people who have absolutely no memory of September 11 because they were children or they weren't even born yet. And I believe that my job is to not only talk about it, but literally to draw them into the building and have them walk down the stairs with me, and I have to be descriptive in a very positive way, so that they really are part of what's going on. And the reality is that I do hear people or people come up and say, we were with you when you were going down the stairs. And I think that's my job, because the reality is that we've got to get people to understand there are lessons to be learned from September 11, right? And the only real way to do that is to attract the audience and bring them in. And I think probably mostly, I'm in a better position to do that than most people, because I'm kind of a curious soul, being blind and all that, but it allows me to to draw them in and and it's fun to do that, actually. And I, and   Greg Schwem ** 13:52 I gotta believe, I mean, obviously I wasn't there, Michael, but I gotta believe there were moments of humor in people, a bunch of people going down the stairs. Sure, me, you put people get it's like, it's like when a bunch of people are in an elevator together, you know, I mean, there's I, when I look around and I try to find something humorous in a crowded and it's probably the same thing now, obviously it, you know, you got out in time. But I and, you know, don't that's the hotel phone, which I just hung up so but I think that I can totally see where you're going from, where, if you're if you're talking to people who have no recollection of this, have no memory where you're basically educating them on the whole event. I think you then you have the opportunity to tell the story in whatever way you see fit. And I think that however you choose to do it is there's no wrong way to do it, I guess is what I'm trying to get at.   Speaker 1 ** 14:55 Well, yeah, I think the wrong way is to be two. Graphic and morbid and morbid, but one of the things that I talk about, for example, is that a colleague of mine who was with me, David Frank, at about the 50th floor, suddenly said, Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And as as I tell the audience, typically, I as as you heard my introduction at the beginning, I have a secondary teaching credential. And one of the things that you probably don't know about teachers is that there's a secret course that every teacher takes called Voice 101, how to yell at students and and so what I tell people is that when David said that, I just said in my best teacher voice, stop it, David, if Roselle and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And he told me later that that brought him out of his funk, and he ended up walking a floor below me and shouting up to me everything he saw. And it was just mainly, everything is clear, like I'm on floor 48 he's on 47/47 floor. Everything is good here, and what I have done for the past several years in telling that part of the story is to say David, in reality, probably did more to keep people calm and focused as we went down the stairs than anyone else, because anyone within the sound of his voice heard someone who was focused and sounded okay. You know, hey, I'm on the 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping. And it it helps people understand that we all had to do what we could to keep everyone from not panicking. And it almost happened a few times that people did, but we worked at it. But the i The idea is that it helps draw people in, and I think that's so important to do for my particular story is to draw them in and have them walk down the stairs with me, which is what I do, absolutely, yeah, yeah. Now I'm curious about something that keeps coming up. I hear it every so often, public speaker, Speaker experts and people who are supposedly the great gurus of public speaking say you shouldn't really start out with a joke. And I've heard that so often, and I'm going give me a break. Well, I think, I think it depends, yeah, I think   Greg Schwem ** 17:33 there's two schools of thought to that. I think if you're going to start out with a joke, it better be a really good one, or something that you either has been battle tested, because if it doesn't work now, you, you know, if you're hoping for a big laugh, now you're saying, Well, you're a comedian, what do you do? You know, I mean, I, I even, I just sort of work my way into it a little bit. Yeah, and I'm a comedian, so, and, you know, it's funny, Michael, I will get, I will get. I've had CEOs before say to me, Hey, you know, I've got to give this presentation next week. Give me a joke I can tell to everybody. And I always decline. I always it's like, I don't need that kind of pressure. And it's like, I can, I can, I can tell you a funny joke, but,   Michael Hingson ** 18:22 but you telling the   Greg Schwem ** 18:23 work? Yeah, deliver it. You know, I can't deliver it for you. Yeah? And I think that's what I also, you know, on that note, I've never been a big fan of Stand Up Comedy classes, and you see them all popping up all over the place. Now, a lot of comedy clubs will have them, and usually the you take the class, and the carrot at the end is you get to do five minutes at a comedy club right now, if that is your goal, if you're somebody who always like, Gosh, I wonder what it would like be like to stand up on stage and and be a comedian for five minutes. That's something I really like to try. By all means, take the class, all right. But if you think that you're going to take this class and you're going to emerge a much funnier person, like all of a sudden you you weren't funny, but now you are, don't take the class, yeah? And I think, sadly, I think that a lot of people sign up for these classes thinking the latter, thinking that they will all of a sudden become, you know, a comedian. And it doesn't work that way. I'm sorry you cannot teach unfunny people to be funny. Yeah, some of us have the gift of it, and some of us don't. Some of us are really good with our hands, and just know how to build stuff and how to look at things and say, I can do that. And some of us, myself included, definitely do not. You know, I think you can teach people to be more comfortable, more comfortable in front of an audience and. Correct. I think that is definitely a teachable thing, but I don't think that you can teach people to be funnier   Speaker 1 ** 20:10 and funnier, and I agree with that. I tend to be amazed when I keep hearing that one of the top fears in our world is getting up in front of an audience and talking with them, because people really don't understand that audiences, whatever you're doing, want you to succeed, and they're not against you, but we have just conditioned ourselves collectively that speaking is something to be afraid of?   Greg Schwem ** 20:41 Yes, I think, though it's, I'm sure, that fear, though, of getting up in front of people has only probably been exacerbated and been made more intense because now everybody in the audience has a cell phone and to and to be looking out at people and to see them on their phones. Yeah, you're and yet, you prepped all day long. You've been nervous. You've been you probably didn't sleep the night before. If you're one of these people who are afraid of speaking in public, yeah, and then to see people on their phones. You know, it used to bother me. It doesn't anymore, because it's just the society we live in. I just, I wish, I wish people could put their phones down and just enjoy laughing for 45 minutes. But unfortunately, our society can't do that anymore, so I just hope that I can get most of them to stop looking at it.   Speaker 1 ** 21:32 I don't make any comments about it at the beginning, but I have, on a number of occasions, been delivering a speech, and I hear a cell phone ring, and I'll stop and go, Hello. And I don't know for sure what the person with the cell phone does, but by the same token, you know they really shouldn't be on their phone and and it works out, okay, nobody's ever complained about it. And when I just say hello, or I'll go Hello, you don't say, you know, and things like that, but, but I don't, I don't prolong it. I'll just go back to what I was talking about. But I remember, when I lived in New Jersey, Sandy Duncan was Peter Pan in New York. One night she was flying over the audience, and there was somebody on his cell phone, and she happened to be going near him, and she just kicked the phone out of his hand. And I think that's one of the things that started Broadway in saying, if you have a cell phone, turn it off. And those are the announcements that you hear at the beginning of any Broadway performance today.   Greg Schwem ** 22:39 Unfortunately, people don't abide by that. I know you're still hearing cell phones go off, yeah, you know, in Broadway productions at the opera or wherever, so people just can't and there you go. There that just shows you're fighting a losing battle.   Speaker 1 ** 22:53 Yeah, it's just one of those things, and you got to cope with it.   Greg Schwem ** 22:58 What on that note, though, there was, I will say, if I can interrupt real quick, there was one show I did where nobody had their phone. It was a few years ago. I spoke at the CIA. I spoke for some employees of the CIA. And this might, this might freak people out, because you think, how is it that America's covert intelligence agency, you think they would be on their phones all the time. No, if you work there, you cannot have your phone on you. And so I had an audience of about 300 people who I had their total attention because there was no other way to they had no choice but to listen to me, and it was wonderful. It was just a great show, and I it was just so refreshing. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 23:52 and mostly I don't hear cell phones, but they do come up from time to time. And if they do, then you know it happens. Now my one of my favorite stories is I once spoke in Maryland at the Department of Defense, which anybody who knows anything knows that's the National Security Agency, but they call it the Department of Defense, as if we don't know. And my favorite story is that I had, at the time, a micro cassette recorder, and it died that morning before I traveled to Fort Meade, and I forgot to just throw it away, and it was in my briefcase. So I got to the fort, they searched, apparently, didn't find it, but on the way out, someone found it. They had to get a bird Colonel to come to decide what to do with it. I said, throw it away. And they said, No, we can't do that. It's yours. And they they decided it didn't work, and they let me take it and I threw it away. But it was so, so funny to to be at the fort and see everybody running around crazy. See, what do we do with this micro cassette recorder? This guy's been here for an hour. Yeah. So it's it. You know, all sorts of things happen. What do you think about you know, there's a lot of discussion about comedians who use a lot of foul language in their shows, and then there are those who don't, and people seem to like the shock value of that.   Greg Schwem ** 25:25 Yeah, I'm very old school in that. I guess my short answer is, No, I've never, ever been one of those comedians. Ever I do a clean show, I actually learned my lesson very early on. I think I think that I think comedians tend to swear because when they first start out, out of nerves, because I will tell you that profanity does get laughter. And I've always said, if you want to, if you want to experiment on that, have a comedian write a joke, and let's say he's got two shows that night. Let's say he's got an eight o'clock show and a 10 o'clock show. So let's say he does the joke in the eight o'clock and it's, you know, the cadence is bumper, bump up, bump up, bump up, punch line. Okay, now let's and let's see how that plays. Now let's now he does the 10 o'clock show and it's bumper, bump up, bump up F and Okay, yeah, I pretty much guarantee you the 10 o'clock show will get a bigger laugh. Okay? Because he's sort of, it's like the audience is programmed like, oh, okay, we're supposed to laugh at that now. And I think a lot of comedians think, Aha, I have just discovered how to be successful as a comedian. I will just insert the F word in front of every punch line, and you can kind of tell what comedians do that and what comedians I mean. I am fine with foul language, but have some jokes in there too. Don't make them. Don't make the foul word, the joke, the joke, right? And I can say another thing nobody has ever said to me, I cannot hire you because you're too clean. I've never gotten that. And all the years I've been doing this, and I know there's lots of comedians who who do work blue, who have said, you know, who have been turned down for that very reason. So I believe, if you're a comedian, the only way to get better is to work any place that will have you. Yeah, and you can't, so you might as well work clean so you can work any place that will have you, as opposed to being turned away.   Speaker 1 ** 27:30 Well, and I, and I know what, what happened to him and all that, but at the same time, I grew up listening to Bill Cosby and the fact that he was always clean. And, yeah, I understand everything that happened, but you can't deny and you can't forget so many years of humor and all the things that that he brought to the world, and the joy he brought to the world in so many ways.   Greg Schwem ** 27:57 Oh, yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And he Yeah, he worked everywhere. Jay Leno is another one. I mean, Jay Leno is kind of on the same wavelength as me, as far as don't let the profanity become the joke. You know, Eddie Murphy was, you know, was very foul. Richard Pryor, extremely foul. I but they also, prior, especially, had very intelligent material. I mean, you can tell and then if you want to insert your F bombs and so forth, that's fine, but at least show me that you're trying. At least show me that you came in with material in addition to the   Speaker 1 ** 28:36 foul language. The only thing I really have to say about all that is it? Jay Leno should just stay away from cars, but that's another story.   Greg Schwem ** 28:43 Oh, yeah, it's starting to   Greg Schwem ** 28:47 look that way. Yeah, it   Michael Hingson ** 28:49 was. It was fun for a while, Jay, but yeah, there's just two. It's like, Harrison Ford and plains. Yeah, same concept. At some point you're like, this isn't working out. Now I submit that living here in Victorville and just being out on the streets and being driven around and all that, I am firmly convinced, given the way most people drive here, that the bigoted DMV should let me have a license, because I am sure I can drive as well as most of the clowns around here. Yeah, so when they drive, I have no doubt. Oh, gosh. Well, you know, you switched from being a TV journalist and so on to to comedy. Was it a hard choice? Was it really difficult to do, or did it just seem like this is the time and this is the right thing to do. I was   Greg Schwem ** 29:41 both, you know, it was hard, because I really did enjoy my job and I liked, I liked being a TV news reporter. I liked, I liked a job that was different every day once you got in there, because you didn't know what they were going to send you out to do. Yes, you had. To get up and go to work every day and so forth. So there's a little bit of, you know, there's a little bit of the mundane, just like there is in any job, but once you were there, I liked, just never known what the day would bring, right? And and I, I think if I'd stayed with it, I think I think I could have gone pretty far, particularly now, because the now it's more people on TV are becoming more entertainers news people are becoming, yeah, they are. A lot of would be, want to be comedians and so forth. And I don't particularly think that's appropriate, but I agree. But so it was hard to leave, but it gets back to what I said earlier. At some point, you got to say, I was seeing comedians making money, and I was thinking, gosh, you know, if they're making money at this I I'm not hilarious, but I know I'm funnier than that guy. Yeah, I'm funnier than her, so why not? And I was young, and I was single, and I thought, if I if I don't try it now, I never will. And, and I'll bet there's just some hilarious people out there, yeah, who who didn't ever, who just were afraid   Michael Hingson ** 31:14 to take that chance, and they wouldn't take the leap, yeah,   Greg Schwem ** 31:16 right. And now they're probably kicking themselves, and I'm sure maybe they're very successful at what they do, but they're always going to say, what if, if I only done this? I don't ever, I don't, ever, I never, ever wanted to say that. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 31:31 well, and there's, there's something to be said for being brave and stepping out and doing something that you don't expect, or that you didn't expect, or that you weren't sure how it was going to go, but if you don't try, then you're never going to know just how, how much you could really accomplish and how much you can really do. And I think that the creative people, whatever they're being creative about, are the people who do step out and are willing to take a chance.   Greg Schwem ** 31:59 Yeah, yeah. And I told my kids that too. You know, it's just like, if it's something that you're passionate about, do it. Just try it. If it doesn't work out, then at least you can say I tried   Speaker 1 ** 32:09 it and and if it doesn't work out, then you can decide, what do I need to do to figure out why it didn't work out, or is it just not me? I want   Greg Schwem ** 32:18 to keep going? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 32:21 So what is the difference between being a nightclub comedian and a corporate comedian? Because they are somewhat different. I think I know the answer. But what would you say that the differences between them? I think   Greg Schwem ** 32:33 the biggest thing is the audiences. I think when you when you are a nightclub comedian, you are working in front of people who are there to be entertained. Yeah, they, they paid money for that. That's what they're expecting. They, they, at some point during the day, they said, Hey, let's, let's go laugh tonight. That's what we really want to do when you're working in front of a corporate audiences. That's not necessarily the case. They are there. I primarily do business conferences and, you know, association meetings and so forth. And I'm just one cog in the wheel of a whole day's worth of meetings are, for the most part, very dry and boring, maybe certainly necessary educational. They're learning how to do their job better or something. And then you have a guy like me come in, and people aren't always ready to laugh, yeah, despite the fact that they probably need to, but they just they're not always in that mindset. And also the time of day. I mean, I do a lot of shows at nine in the morning. I do shows after lunch, right before lunch. I actually do very few shows in the evening, believe it or not. And so then you you have to, you kind of have to, in the while you're doing your act or your presentation or your speech, as I call it, you kind of have to let them know that it is okay. What you're doing is okay, and they should be okay with laughing. They shouldn't be looking around the whole time wondering if other people are laughing. You know, can I, can I? Can I tell you a quick story about how I drive that point home. Why not? Yeah, it's, I'll condense it into like five minutes. I mentioned that I worked on that I work on cruise ships occasionally, and I one night I was performing, and it was the first night of the cruise. And if anybody's ever been on a cruise, note, the first night, first night entertainers don't like the first night because people are tired. You know, they're they're a little edgy because they've been traveling all day. They're they're confused because they're not really sure where they're going on a ship. And the ones that have got it figured out usually over serve themselves because they're on vacation. So you put all that, so I'm doing my show on the first. Night, and it's going very well. And about five, six minutes in, I do a joke. Everybody laughs. Everybody shuts up. And from the back of the room in total darkness, I hear hat just like that. And I'm like, All right, you know, probably over served. So the rule of comedy is that everybody gets like. I was like, I'll let it go once, yeah. So I just kind of looked off in that direction, didn't say anything. Kept going with my active going with my act. About 10 minutes later, same thing happens. I tell a joke. Everybody laughs. Everybody shuts up. Hat now I'm like, Okay, I have got to, I've got to address the elephant in the room. So I think I just made some comment, like, you know, I didn't know Roseanne Barr was on this cruise, you know, because that was like the sound of the Yeah. Okay, everybody laugh. Nothing happened about five minutes later. It happens a third time. And now I'm just like, this is gonna stop. I'm going to put a stop to this. And I just fired off. I can't remember, like, three just like, hey man, you know you're you're just a little behind everybody else in this show and probably in life too, that, you know, things like that, and it never happened again. So I'm like, okay, mission accomplished on my part. Comedians love it when we can shut up somebody like that. Anyway. Show's over, I am out doing a meet and greet. Some guy comes up to me and he goes, hey, hey, you know that kid you were making fun of is mentally handicapped. And now, of course, I don't know this, but out of the corner of my eye, I see from the other exit a man pushing a son, his son in a wheelchair out of the showroom. And I'm just like, Oh, what have I done? And yeah. And of course, when you're on a cruise, you're you're on a cruise. When you're a cruise ship entertainer, you have to live with your audience. So I couldn't hide. I spent like the next three days, and it seemed like wherever I was, the man and his son in the wheelchair were nearby. And finally, on the fourth day, I think was, I was waiting for an elevator. Again, 3500 people on this ship, okay, I'm waiting for an elevator. The elevator door opens. Guess who are the only two people the elevator, the man and his son. And I can't really say I'll wait for the next one. So I get on, and I said to this the father, I said, I just want you to know I had no idea. You know, I'm so sorry. I can't see back there, this kind of thing. And the dad looks at me. He puts his hand up to stop me, and he points to me, and he goes, I thought you were hysterical. And it was, not only was it relief, but it kind of, it's sort of a lesson that if you think something is funny, you should laugh at it. Yeah. And I think sometimes in corporate America, my point in this. I think sometimes when you do these corporate shows, I think that audience members forget that. I think very busy looking around to see if their immediate boss thinks it's funny, and eventually everybody's looking at the CEO to see if they're like, you know, I think if you're doing it that way, if that's the way you're you're approaching humor. You're doing yourself a disservice, if right, stopping yourself from laughing at something that you think is funny.   Speaker 1 ** 38:09 I do think that that all too often the problem with meetings is that we as a as a country, we in corporations, don't do meetings, right anyway, for example, early on, I heard someone at a convention of the National Federation of the Blind say he was the new executive director of the American Foundation for the Blind, and he said, I have instituted a policy, no Braille, no meetings. And what that was all about was to say, if you're going to have a meeting, you need to make sure that all the documentation is accessible to those who aren't going to read the print. I take it further and say you shouldn't be giving out documentation during the meeting. And you can use the excuse, well, I got to get the latest numbers and all that. And my point is, you shouldn't be giving out documentation at a meeting, because the meeting is for people to communicate and interact with each other. And if you're giving out papers and so on, what are people going to do? They're going to read that, and they're not going to listen to the speakers. They're not going to listen to the other people. And we do so many things like that, we've gotten into a habit of doing things that become so predictable, but also make meetings very boring, because who wants to look at the papers where you can be listening to people who have a lot more constructive and interesting things to say anyway?   Greg Schwem ** 39:36 Yeah, yeah. I think, I think COVID definitely changed, some for the some for the better and some for the worse. I think that a lot of things that were done at meetings COVID and made us realize a lot of that stuff could be done virtually, that you didn't have to just have everybody sit and listen to people over and over and over again.   Speaker 1 ** 39:58 But unless you're Donald Trump. Up. Yeah, that's another story.   Greg Schwem ** 40:02 Yes, exactly another podcast episode. But, yeah, I do think also that. I think COVID changed audiences. I think, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about crowd work, right, and audiences wanting to be more involved. I think COVID precipitated that, because, if you think about it, Michael, for two and a half years during COVID, our sole source of entertainment was our phone, right? Which meant that we were in charge of the entertainment experience. You don't like something, swipe left, scroll down, scroll, scroll, scroll, find something else. You know, that kind of thing. I'm not I'm not entertained in the next four or five seconds. So I'm going to do this. And I think when live entertainment returned, audiences kind of had to be retrained a little bit, where they had to learn to sit and listen and wait for the entertainment to come to them. And granted, it might not happen immediately. It might not happen in the first five seconds, but you have to just give give people like me a chance. It will come to you. It will happen, but it might not be on your timetable,   Speaker 1 ** 41:13 right? Well, and I think that is all too true for me. I didn't find didn't find COVID to be a great inconvenience, because I don't look at the screen anyway, right? So in a sense, for me, COVID wasn't that much of a change, other than not being in an office or not being physically at a meeting, and so I was listening to the meeting on the computer, and that has its nuances. Like you don't necessarily get the same information about how everyone around you is reacting, but, but it didn't bother me, I think, nearly as much as it did everyone else who has to look at everyone. Of course, I have no problems picking on all those people as well, because what I point out is that that disabilities has to be redefined, because every one of you guys has your own disability. You're light dependent, and you don't do well when there's dark, when, when the dark shows up and and we now have an environment where Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, and we've spent the last 147 years doing everything we can to make sure that light is pretty ubiquitous, but it doesn't change a thing when suddenly the power goes out and you don't have immediate access to light. So that's as much a disability as us light, independent people who don't   Greg Schwem ** 42:36 care about that, right? Right? I hear, I agree, but it is but   Speaker 1 ** 42:41 it is interesting and and it is also important that we all understand each other and are willing to tolerate the fact that there are differences in people, and we need to recognize that with whatever we're doing.   42:53 Yeah, I agree.   Speaker 1 ** 42:57 What do you think about so today, we have obviously a really fractured environment and fractured country, and everyone's got their own opinions, and nobody wants to talk about anything, especially politics wise. How do you think that's all affecting comedy and what you get to do and what other people are doing?   Greg Schwem ** 43:18 Well, I think Pete, I think there's, there's multiple answers to that question too. I think, I think it makes people nervous, wondering what the minute a comedian on stage brings up politics, the minute he starts talking about a politician, whether it's our president, whether it's somebody else, you can sense a tension in the room a little bit, and it's, it's, I mean, it's funny. I, one of my best friends in comedy, got to open for another comedian at Carnegie Hall a couple of years ago, and I went to see him, and I'm sitting way up in the top, and he is just crushing it. And then at one point he he brought up, he decided to do an impression of Mitch McConnell, which he does very well. However, the minute he said, Mitch McConnell, I you could just sense this is Carnegie freaking Hall, and after the show, you know, he and I always like to dissect each other's shows. That's what comedians do. And I just said to him, I go. Why did you decide to insert Mitch McConnell in there? And I, and I didn't say it like, you moron, that was stupid, yeah, but I was genuinely curious. And he just goes, well, I just really like doing that bit, and I like doing that voice and so forth, but, and it's not like the show crashed and burned afterwards. No, he did the joke, and then he got out of it, and he went on to other stuff, and it was fine, but I think that people are just so on their guard now, yeah, and, and that's why, you know, you know Jay Leno always said he was an equal opportunity offender. I think you will do better with politics if you really want. Insert politics into your act. I think he would be better making fun of both sides. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. And I think too often comedians now use the the stage as kind of a Bully, bully pulpit, like I have microphone and you don't. I am now going to give you my take on Donald Trump or the Democrats or whatever, and I've always said, talk about anything you want on stage, but just remember, you're at a comedy club. People came to laugh. So is there a joke in here? Yeah, or are you just ranting because you gotta be careful. You have to get this off your chest, and your way is right. It's, it's, you know, I hate to say it, but that's, that's why podcast, no offense, Michael, yours, is not like this. But I think one of the reasons podcasters have gotten so popular is a lot of people, just a lot of podcast hosts see a podcast is a chance to just rant about whatever's on their mind. And it's amazing to me how many podcast hosts that are hosted by comedians have a second guy have a sidekick to basically laugh and agree with whatever that person says. I think Joe Rogan is a classic example, and he's one of the most popular ones. But, and I don't quite understand that, because you know, if you're a comedian, you you made the choice to work solo, right? So why do you need somebody else with you?   Speaker 1 ** 46:33 I'm I'm fairly close to Leno. My remark is a little bit different. I'm not so much an equal opportunity offender as I am an equal opportunity abuser. I'll pick on both sides if politics comes into it at all, and it's and it's fun, and I remember when George W Bush was leaving the White House, Letterman said, Now we're not going to have anybody to joke about anymore. And everyone loved it. But still, I recognize that in the world today, people don't want to hear anything else. Don't confuse me with the facts or any of that, and it's so unfortunate, but it is the way it is, and so it's wiser to stay away from a lot of that, unless you can really break through the barrier,   Greg Schwem ** 47:21 I think so. And I also think that people, one thing you have to remember, I think, is when people come to a comedy show, they are coming to be entertained. Yeah, they are coming to kind of escape from the gloom and doom that unfortunately permeates our world right now. You know? I mean, I've always said that if you, if you walked up to a comedy club on a Saturday night, and let's say there were 50 people waiting outside, waiting to get in, and you asked all 50 of them, what do you hope happens tonight? Or or, Why are you here? All right, I think from all 50 you would get I would just like to laugh, yeah, I don't think one of them is going to say, you know, I really hope that my opinions on what's happening in the Middle East get challenged right now, but he's a comedian. No one is going to say that. No, no. It's like, I hope I get into it with the comedian on stage, because he thinks this way about a woman's right to choose, and I think the other way. And I really, really hope that he and I will get into an argument about to the middle of the   Speaker 1 ** 48:37 show. Yeah, yeah. That's not why people come?   Greg Schwem ** 48:40 No, it's not. And I, unfortunately, I think again, I think that there's a lot of comedians that don't understand that. Yeah, again, talk about whatever you want on stage, but just remember that your your surroundings, you if you build yourself as a comedian,   48:56 make it funny. Yeah, be funny.   Speaker 1 ** 49:00 Well, and nowadays, especially for for you, for me and so on, we're we're growing older and and I think you point out audiences are getting younger. How do you deal with that?   Greg Schwem ** 49:12 Well, what I try to do is I a couple of things. I try to talk as much as I can about topics that are relevant to a younger generation. Ai being one, I, one of the things I do in my my show is I say, oh, you know, I I really wasn't sure how to start off. And when you're confused these days, you you turn to answer your questions. You turn to chat GPT, and I've actually written, you know, said to chat GPT, you know, I'm doing a show tonight for a group of construction workers who work in the Midwest. It's a $350 million company, and it says, try to be very specific. Give me a funny opening line. And of course, chat GPT always comes up with some. Something kind of stupid, which I then relate to the audience, and they love that, you know, they love that concept. So I think there's, obviously, there's a lot of material that you can do on generational differences, but I, I will say I am very, very aware that my audience is, for the most part, younger than me now, unless I want to spend the rest of my career doing you know, over 55 communities, not that they're not great laughers, but I also think there's a real challenge in being older than your audience and still being able to make them laugh. But I think you have to remember, like you said, there's there's people now that don't remember 911 that have no concept of it, yeah, so don't be doing references from, say, the 1980s or the early 1990s and then come off stage and go, Man, nobody that didn't hit at all. No one, no one. They're stupid. They don't get it. Well, no, they, they, it sounds they don't get it. It's just that they weren't around. They weren't around, right? So that's on you.   Speaker 1 ** 51:01 One of the things that you know people ask me is if I will do virtual events, and I'll do virtual events, but I also tell people, the reason I prefer to do in person events is that I can sense what the audience is doing, how they're reacting and what they feel. If I'm in a room speaking to people, and I don't have that same sense if I'm doing something virtually, agreed same way. Now for me, at the same time, I've been doing this now for 23 years, so I have a pretty good idea in general, how to interact with an audience, to draw them in, even in a virtual environment, but I still tend to be a little bit more careful about it, and it's just kind of the way it is, you know, and you and you learn to deal with it well for you, have you ever had writer's block, and how did you deal with it?   Greg Schwem ** 51:57 Yes, I have had writer's block. I don't I can't think of a single comedian who's never had writer's block, and if they say they haven't, I think they're lying when I have writer's block, the best way for me to deal with this and just so you know, I'm not the kind of comedian that can go that can sit down and write jokes. I can write stories. I've written three books, but I can't sit down and just be funny for an hour all by myself. I need interaction. I need communication. And I think when I have writer's block, I tend to go out and try and meet strangers and can engage them in conversation and find out what's going on with them. I mean, you mentioned about dealing with the younger audience. I am a big believer right now in talking to people who are half my age. I like doing that in social settings, because I just, I'm curious. I'm curious as to how they think. I'm curious as to, you know, how they spend money, how they save money, how what their hopes and dreams are for the future, what that kind of thing, and that's the kind of stuff that then I'll take back and try and write material about. And I think that, I think it's fun for me, and it's really fun to meet somebody who I'll give you a great example just last night. Last night, I was I there's a there's a bar that I have that's about 10 a stone's throw from my condo, and I love to stop in there and and every now and then, sometimes I'll sit there and I won't meet anybody, and sometimes different. So there was a guy, I'd say he's probably in his early 30s, sitting too over, and he was reading, which I find intriguing, that people come to a bar and read, yeah, people do it, I mean. And I just said to him, I go, and he was getting ready to pay his bill, and I just said, if you don't mind me asking, What are you reading? And he's like, Oh, it's by Ezra Klein. And I go, you know, I've listened to Ezra Klein before. And he goes, Yeah, you know? He says, I'm a big fan. And debt to debt to dad. Next thing, you know, we're just, we're just riffing back and forth. And I ended up staying. He put it this way, Michael, it took him a very long time to pay his bill because we had a conversation, and it was just such a pleasure to to people like that, and I think that, and it's a hard thing. It's a hard thing for me to do, because I think people are on their guard, a little bit like, why is this guy who's twice my age talking to me at a bar? That's that seems a little weird. And I would get that. I can see that. But as I mentioned in my latest book, I don't mean because I don't a whole chapter to this, and I I say in the book, I don't mean you any harm. I'm not trying to hit on you, or I'm not creepy old guy at the bar. I am genuinely interested in your story. And. In your life, and and I just, I want to be the least interesting guy in the room, and that's kind of how I go about my writing, too. Is just you, you drive the story. And even though I'm the comedian, I'll just fill in the gaps and make them funny.   Speaker 1 ** 55:15 Well, I know that I have often been invited to speak at places, and I wondered, What am I going to say to this particular audience? How am I going to deal with them? They're they're different than what I'm used to. What I found, I guess you could call that writer's block, but what I found is, if I can go early and interact with them, even if I'm the very first speaker, if I can interact with them beforehand, or if there are other people speaking before me, invariably, I will hear things that will allow me to be able to move on and give a relevant presentation specifically to that group, which is what it's really all about. And so I'm with you, and I appreciate it, and it's good to get to the point where you don't worry about the block, but rather you look at ways to move forward and interact with people and make it fun, right,   Greg Schwem ** 56:13 right? And I do think people, I think COVID, took that away from us a little bit, yeah, obviously, but I but, and I do think people missed that. I think that people, once you get them talking, are more inclined to not think that you're you have ulterior motives. I think people do enjoy putting their phones down a little bit, but it's, it's kind of a two way street when I, when I do meet people, if it's if it's only me asking the questions, eventually I'm going to get tired of that. Yeah, I think there's a, there has to be a reciprocity thing a little bit. And one thing I find is, is with the Gen Z's and maybe millennials. They're not, they're not as good at that as I think they could be. They're more they're they're happy to talk about themselves, but they're not really good at saying so what do you do for a living? Or what you know, tell me about you. And I mean, that's how you learn about other people. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 57:19 tell me about your your latest book, Turning gut punches into punchlines. That's a interesting title, yeah, well, the more   Greg Schwem ** 57:26 interesting is the subtitle. So it's turning gut punches into punch punch lines, A Comedian's journey through cancer, divorce and other hilarious stuff.   Speaker 1 ** 57:35 No, like you haven't done anything in the world. Okay, right? So   Greg Schwem ** 57:38 other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln. Yeah, exactly. See, now you get that reference. I don't know if I could use that on stage, but anyway, depend on your audience. But yeah, they're like, What's he talking   Speaker 1 ** 57:50 who's Lincoln? And I've been to Ford theater too, so that's okay, yes, as have I. So it was much later than, than, well, than Lincoln, but that's okay.   Greg Schwem ** 57:58 You're not that old, right? No. Well, okay, so as the title, as the title implies, I did have sort of a double, double gut punch, it just in the last two years. So I, I got divorced late in life, after 29 years of marriage. And while that was going on, I got a colon cancer diagnosis and and at this end, I was dealing with all this while also continuing work as a humor speaker, okay, as a comedian. And I just decided I got it. First of all, I got a very clean bill of health. I'm cancer free. I am finally divorced so and I, I started to think, I wonder if there's some humor in this. I I would, I would, you know, Michael, I've been on stage for like, 25 years telling people that, you know, you can find something funny to laugh at. You can find humor in any situation. It's kind of like what you're talking about all the people going down the stairs in the building in the world trade center. All right, if you look around enough, you know, maybe there's something funny, and I've been preaching that, but I never really had to live that until now. And I thought, you know, maybe there's something here. Maybe I can this is my chance now to embrace new experiences. It was kind of when I got divorced, when you've been married half your life and all of a sudden you get divorced, everything's new to you, yeah, you're, you're, you're living alone, you you're doing things that your spouse did, oh, so many years. And you're having to do those, and you're having to make new friends, yeah, and all of that, I think, is very humorous. So the more I saw a book in there that I started writing before the cancer diagnosis, and I thought was there enough here? Just like, okay, a guy at 60 years old gets divorced now what's going to happen to him? The diagnosis? Kind. Made it just added another wrinkle to the book, because now I have to deal with this, and I have to find another subject to to make light of a little bit. So the book is not a memoir, you know, I don't start it off. And, you know, when I was seven, you know, I played, you know, I was, I went to this school night. It's not that. It's more just about reinvention and just seeing that you can be happy later in life, even though you have to kind of rewrite your your story a little   Speaker 1 ** 1:00:33 bit. And I would assume, and I would assume, you bring some of that into your ACT every so   Greg Schwem ** 1:00:38 very much. So yeah, I created a whole new speech called Turning gut punches into punchlines. And I some of the stuff that I, that I did, but, you know, there's a chapter in the book about, I about gig work, actually three chapters I, you know, I went to work for Amazon during the Christmas holiday rush, just scanning packages. I wanted to see what that was like. I drove for Uber I which I did for a while. And to tell you the truth, I miss it. I ended up selling my car, but I miss it because of the what we just talked about. It was a great way to communicate with people. It was a great way to talk to people, find out about them, be the least interesting person in the car, anyway. And there's a chapter about dating and online dating, which I had not had to do in 30 years. There's a lot of humor in that. I went to therapy. I'd never gone to therapy before. I wrote a chapter about that. So I think people really respond to this book, because they I think they see a lot of themselves in it. You know, lots of people have been divorced. There's lots of cancer survivors out there, and there's lots of people who just suddenly have hit a speed bump in their life, and they're not really sure how to deal with it, right? And my way, this book is just about deal with it through laughter. And I'm the perfect example.   Speaker 1 ** 1:01:56 I hear you, Oh, I I know, and I've been through the same sort of thing as you not a divorce, but my wife and I were married for 40 years, and she passed away in November of 2022 after 40 years of marriage. And as I tell people, as I tell people, I got to be really careful, because she's monitoring me from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I got to be a good kid, and I don't even chase the women so. But I also point out that none of them have been chasing me either, so I guess I just do what we got to do. But the reality is, I think there are always ways to find some sort of a connection with other people, and then, of course, that's what what you do. It's all about creating a connection, creating a relationship, even if it's only for a couple of hours or an hour or 45 minutes, but, but you do it, which is what it's all about?   Greg Schwem ** 1:02:49 Yeah, exactly. And I think the funniest stuff is real life experience. Oh, absolutely, you know. And if people can see themselves in in what I've written, then I've done my job as a writer.   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:03 So do you have any plans to retire?   Greg Schwem ** 1:03:06 Never. I mean, good for you retire from what   1:03:09 I know right, making fun of people   Greg Schwem ** 1:03:12 and making them laugh. I mean, I don't know what I would do with myself, and even if I there's always going to be I don't care how technology, technologically advanced our society gets. People will always want and need to laugh. Yeah, they're always going to want to do that. And if they're want, if they're wanting to do that, then I will find, I will find a way to get to them. And that's why I, as I said, That's why, like working on cruise ships has become, like a new, sort of a new avenue for me to make people laugh. And so, yeah, I don't I there's, there's no way. I don't know what else I would do with   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:53 myself, well and from my perspective, as long as I can inspire people, yes, I can make people think a little bit and feel better about themselves. I'm going to do it right. And, and, and I do. And I wrote a book during COVID that was published last August called Live like a guide dog. And it's all about helping people learn to control fear. And I use lessons I learned from eight guide dogs and my wife service dog to do that. My wife was in a wheelchair her whole life. Great marriage. She read, I pushed worked out well, but, but the but the but the bottom line is that dogs can teach us so many lessons, and there's so much that we can learn from them. So I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to create this book and and get it out there. And I think that again, as long as I can continue to inspire people, I'm going to do it. Because   Greg Schwem ** 1:04:47 why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't I exactly right? Yeah, yeah. So,   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:51 I mean, I think if I, if I stopped, I think my wife would beat up on me, so I gotta be nice exactly. She's monitoring from somewhere

We are joined by two-thirds of the dynamic force behind the art rock band Mind at Large this week... Eli Mathews and Alex Donahue! Eli jumps right in to share the exciting news of his engagement and the harmonious chaos of his life outside the spotlight. From the heartwarming proposal story to the everyday joys of dog sitting and culinary escapades, Eli gives us a glimpse into his world, all while balancing the rich flavors of life and music. Our conversation takes on a new rhythm with Alex Donahue joining the discussion, bringing insights into his life as a father and a self-taught luthier. Alex reflects on the hero's journey, emphasizing that perseverance shapes both personal and creative growth. We explore how the arrival of his child, Emerson, and the addition of his younger brother Andrew on drums have transformed Mind at Large, introducing a fresh beat that has revitalized their musical journey. This chapter of life is a testament to the evolution of both band and family, blending the excitement of parenthood with creative breakthroughs. Our conversation broadens to embrace the vibrant world of jam bands and the evolving music landscape shaped by platforms like YouTube. We explore the thrill of discovering new sounds, celebrating collective achievements, and embracing the imperfect beauty of music. From the inspiration found in simple, authentic sounds to the future of their band's journey, every note resonates with growth and connection. Check out the new album 'Begin Aain' streaming everywhere and follow Mind At Large on IG @mindatlargemusic Head to mindatlargeband.net for tour info, news, and more! -FREE SHIPPING from ⁠⁠⁠⁠Shop Tour Bus⁠⁠⁠⁠ Use The PROMO CODE: nosimpleroad INTRO MUSIC PROVIDED BY - ⁠⁠⁠⁠Young & Sick⁠⁠⁠⁠ MUSIC IN THE COMMERCIALS BY AND USED WITH PERMISSION OF: ⁠⁠⁠⁠CIRCLES AROUND THE SUN⁠⁠⁠⁠ OUTRO MUSIC BY AND USED WITH PERMISSION OF: ⁠⁠⁠⁠CHILLDREN OF INDIGO⁠⁠⁠⁠ No Simple Road is part of ⁠⁠⁠⁠OSIRIS MEDIA⁠⁠⁠⁠. Osiris Media is the leading storyteller in music, combining the intimacy of podcasts with the power of music

Gen. Christopher Todd Donahue, who leads U.S. Army Europe and Africa as well as Allied Land Command, joined Ryan for a discussion at WOTR HQ. For the first five minutes, they chat about his Army story, his time in the Ranger Regiment, before discussing how the Army Transformation Initiative is unfolding in Europe, from maneuver brigades, new technologies, command-and-control, drone and counter-drone operations, and more. Donahue previews how the U.S. Army has deliberately identified lessons from the war in Ukraine and how the Army fits into the joint fight. 

For those who haven't heard the announcement I posted, songs from this point on will sometimes be split among multiple episodes, so this is the second part of a two-episode look at the song “Who Knows Where The Time Goes?” by Fairport Convention, and the intertwining careers of Joe Boyd, Sandy Denny, and Richard Thompson. Click the full post to read liner notes, links to more information, and a transcript of the episode. Patreon backers also have a forty-one-minute bonus episode available, on Judy Collins’ version of this song. Tilt Araiza has assisted invaluably by editing, and will hopefully be doing so from now on. Check out Tilt's irregular podcasts at http://www.podnose.com/jaffa-cakes-for-proust and http://sitcomclub.com/ Erratum For about an hour this was uploaded with the wrong Elton John clip in place of “Saturday Sun”. This has now been fixed. Resources Because of the increasing problems with Mixcloud’s restrictions, I have decided to start sharing streaming playlists of the songs used in episodes instead of Mixcloud ones. This Tunemymusic link will let you listen to the playlist I created on your streaming platform of choice — however please note that not all the songs excerpted are currently available on streaming. The songs missing from the Tidal version are “Shanten Bells” by the Ian Campbell Folk Group, “Tom’s Gone to Hilo” by A.L. Lloyd, two by Paul McNeill and Linda Peters, three by Elton John & Linda Peters, “What Will I Do With Tomorrow” by Sandy Denny and “You Never Know” by Charlie Drake, but the other fifty-nine are there. Other songs may be missing from other services. The main books I used on Fairport Convention as a whole were Patrick Humphries' Meet On The Ledge, Clinton Heylin's What We Did Instead of Holidays, and Kevan Furbank's Fairport Convention on Track. Rob Young's Electric Eden is the most important book on the British folk-rock movement. Information on Richard Thompson comes from Patrick Humphries' Richard Thompson: Strange Affair and Thompson's own autobiography Beeswing.  Information on Sandy Denny comes from Clinton Heylin's No More Sad Refrains and Mick Houghton's I've Always Kept a Unicorn. I also used Joe Boyd's autobiography White Bicycles and Chris Blackwell's The Islander.  And this three-CD set is the best introduction to Fairport's music currently in print. Transcript Before we begin, this episode contains reference to alcohol and cocaine abuse and medical neglect leading to death. It also starts with some discussion of the fatal car accident that ended last episode. There’s also some mention of child neglect and spousal violence. If that’s likely to upset you, you might want to skip this episode or read the transcript. One of the inspirations for this podcast when I started it back in 2018 was a project by Richard Thompson, which appears (like many things in Thompson’s life) to have started out of sheer bloody-mindedness. In 1999 Playboy magazine asked various people to list their “songs of the Millennium”, and most of them, understanding the brief, chose a handful of songs from the latter half of the twentieth century. But Thompson determined that he was going to list his favourite songs *of the millennium*. He didn’t quite manage that, but he did cover seven hundred and forty years, and when Playboy chose not to publish it, he decided to turn it into a touring show, in which he covered all his favourite songs from “Sumer Is Icumen In” from 1260: [Excerpt: Richard Thompson, “Sumer is Icumen In”] Through numerous traditional folk songs, union songs like “Blackleg Miner”, pieces by early-modern composers, Victorian and Edwardian music hall songs, and songs by the Beatles, the Ink Spots, the Kinks, and the Who, all the way to “Oops! I Did It Again”: [Excerpt: Richard Thompson, “Oops! I Did it Again”] And to finish the show, and to show how all this music actually ties together, he would play what he described as a “medieval tune from Brittany”, “Marry, Ageyn Hic Hev Donne Yt”: [Excerpt: Richard Thompson, “Marry, Ageyn Hic Hev Donne Yt”] We have said many times in this podcast that there is no first anything, but there’s a reason that Liege and Lief, Fairport Convention’s third album of 1969, and the album other than Unhalfbricking on which their reputation largely rests, was advertised with the slogan “The first (literally) British folk rock album ever”. Folk-rock, as the term had come to be known, and as it is still usually used today, had very little to do with traditional folk music. Rather, the records of bands like The Byrds or Simon and Garfunkel were essentially taking the sounds of British beat groups of the early sixties, particularly the Searchers, and applying those sounds to material by contemporary singer-songwriters. People like Paul Simon and Bob Dylan had come up through folk clubs, and their songs were called folk music because of that, but they weren’t what folk music had meant up to that point — songs that had been collected after being handed down through the folk process, changed by each individual singer, with no single identifiable author. They were authored songs by very idiosyncratic writers. But over their last few albums, Fairport Convention had done one or two tracks per album that weren’t like that, that were instead recordings of traditional folk songs, but arranged with rock instrumentation. They were not necessarily the first band to try traditional folk music with electric instruments — around the same time that Fairport started experimenting with the idea, so did an Irish band named Sweeney’s Men, who brought in a young electric guitarist named Henry McCullough briefly. But they do seem to have been the first to have fully embraced the idea. They had done so to an extent with “A Sailor’s Life” on Unhalfbricking, but now they were going to go much further: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Matty Groves” (from about 4:30)] There had been some doubt as to whether Fairport Convention would even continue to exist — by the time Unhalfbricking, their second album of the year, was released, they had been through the terrible car accident that had killed Martin Lamble, the band’s drummer, and Jeannie Franklyn, Richard Thompson’s girlfriend. Most of the rest of the band had been seriously injured, and they had made a conscious decision not to discuss the future of the band until they were all out of hospital. Ashley Hutchings was hospitalised the longest, and Simon Nicol, Richard Thompson, and Sandy Denny, the other three surviving members of the band, flew over to LA with their producer and manager, Joe Boyd, to recuperate there and get to know the American music scene. When they came back, the group all met up in the flat belonging to Denny’s boyfriend Trevor Lucas, and decided that they were going to continue the band. They made a few decisions then — they needed a new drummer, and as well as a drummer they wanted to get in Dave Swarbrick. Swarbrick had played violin on several tracks on Unhalfbricking as a session player, and they had all been thrilled to work with him. Swarbrick was one of the most experienced musicians on the British folk circuit. He had started out in the fifties playing guitar with Beryl Marriott’s Ceilidh Band before switching to fiddle, and in 1963, long before Fairport had formed, he had already appeared on TV with the Ian Campbell Folk Group, led by Ian Campbell, the father of Ali and Robin Campbell, later of UB40: [Excerpt: The Ian Campbell Folk Group, “Shanten Bells (medley on Hullaballoo!)”] He’d sung with Ewan MacColl and A.L. Lloyd: [Excerpt: A.L. Lloyd, “Tom’s Gone to Hilo” ] And he’d formed his hugely successful duo with Martin Carthy, releasing records like “Byker Hill” which are often considered among the best British folk music of all time: [Excerpt: Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick, “Byker Hill”] By the time Fairport had invited him to play on Unhalfbricking, Swarbrick had already performed on twenty albums as a core band member, plus dozens more EPs, singles, and odd tracks on compilations. They had no reason to think they could actually get him to join their band. But they had three advantages. The first was that Swarbrick was sick of the traditional folk scene at the time, saying later “I didn’t like seven-eighths of the people involved in it, and it was extremely opportune to leave. I was suddenly presented with the possibilities of exploring the dramatic content of the songs to the full.” The second was that he was hugely excited to be playing with Richard Thompson, who was one of the most innovative guitarists of his generation, and Martin Carthy remembers him raving about Thompson after their initial sessions. (Carthy himself was and is no slouch on the guitar of course, and there was even talk of getting him to join the band at this point, though they decided against it — much to the relief of rhythm guitarist Simon Nicol, who is a perfectly fine player himself but didn’t want to be outclassed by *two* of the best guitarists in Britain at the same time). And the third was that Joe Boyd told him that Fairport were doing so well — they had a single just about to hit the charts with “Si Tu Dois Partir” — that he would only have to play a dozen gigs with Fairport in order to retire. As it turned out, Swarbrick would play with the group for a decade, and would never retire — I saw him on his last tour in 2015, only eight months before he died. The drummer the group picked was also a far more experienced musician than any of the rest, though in a very different genre. Dave Mattacks had no knowledge at all of the kind of music they played, having previously been a player in dance bands. When asked by Hutchings if he wanted to join the band, Mattacks’ response was “I don’t know anything about the music. I don’t understand it… I can’t tell one tune from another, they all sound the same… but if you want me to join the group, fine, because I really like it. I’m enjoying myself musically.” Mattacks brought a new level of professionalism to the band, thanks to his different background. Nicol said of him later “He was dilligent, clean, used to taking three white shirts to a gig… The application he could bring to his playing was amazing. With us, you only played well when you were feeling well.” This distinction applied to his playing as well. Nicol would later describe the difference between Mattacks’ drumming and Lamble’s by saying “Martin’s strength was as an imaginative drummer. DM came in with a strongly developed sense of rhythm, through keeping a big band of drunken saxophone players in order. A great time-keeper.” With this new line-up and a new sense of purpose, the group did as many of their contemporaries were doing and “got their heads together in the country”. Joe Boyd rented the group a mansion, Farley House, in Farley Chamberlayne, Hampshire, and they stayed there together for three months. At the start, the group seem to have thought that they were going to make another record like Unhalfbricking, with some originals, some songs by American songwriters, and a few traditional songs. Even after their stay in Farley Chamberlayne, in fact, they recorded a few of the American songs they’d rehearsed at the start of the process, Richard Farina’s “Quiet Joys of Brotherhood” and Bob Dylan and Roger McGuinn’s “Ballad of Easy Rider”: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Ballad of Easy Rider”] Indeed, the whole idea of “getting our heads together in the country” (as the cliche quickly became in the late sixties as half of the bands in Britain went through much the same kind of process as Fairport were doing — but usually for reasons more to do with drug burnout or trend following than recovering from serious life-changing trauma) seems to have been inspired by Bob Dylan and the Band getting together in Big Pink. But very quickly they decided to follow the lead of Ashley Hutchings, who had had something of a Damascene conversion to the cause of traditional English folk music. They were listening mostly to Music From Big Pink by the Band, and to the first album by Sweeney’s Men: [Excerpt: Sweeney’s Men, “The Handsome Cabin Boy”] And they decided that they were going to make something that was as English as those records were North American and Irish (though in the event there were also a few Scottish songs included on the record). Hutchings in particular was becoming something of a scholar of traditional music, regularly visiting Cecil Sharp House and having long conversations with A.L. Lloyd, discovering versions of different traditional songs he’d never encountered before. This was both amusing and bemusing Sandy Denny, who had joined a rock group in part to get away from traditional music; but she was comfortable singing the material, and knew a lot of it and could make a lot of suggestions herself. Swarbrick obviously knew the repertoire intimately, and Nicol was amenable, while Mattacks was utterly clueless about the folk tradition at this point but knew this was the music he wanted to make. Thompson knew very little about traditional music, and of all the band members except Denny he was the one who has shown the least interest in the genre in his subsequent career — but as we heard at the beginning, showing the least interest in the genre is a relative thing, and while Thompson was not hugely familiar with the genre, he *was* able to work with it, and was also more than capable of writing songs that fit in with the genre. Of the eleven songs on the album, which was titled Liege and Lief (which means, roughly, Lord and Loyalty), there were no cover versions of singer-songwriters. Eight were traditional songs, and three were originals, all written in the style of traditional songs. The album opened with “Come All Ye”, an introduction written by Denny and Hutchings (the only time the two would ever write together): [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Come All Ye”] The other two originals were songs where Thompson had written new lyrics to traditional melodies. On “Crazy Man Michael”, Swarbrick had said to Thompson that the tune to which he had set his new words was weaker than the lyrics, to which Thompson had replied that if Swarbrick felt that way he should feel free to write a new melody. He did, and it became the first of the small number of Thompson/Swarbrick collaborations: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Crazy Man Michael”] Thompson and Swarbrick would become a brief songwriting team, but as much as anything else it was down to proximity — the two respected each other as musicians, but never got on very well. In 1981 Swarbrick would say “Richard and I never got on in the early days of FC… we thought we did, but we never did. We composed some bloody good songs together, but it was purely on a basis of “you write that and I’ll write this, and we’ll put it together.” But we never sat down and had real good chats.” The third original on the album, and by far the most affecting, is another song where Thompson put lyrics to a traditional tune. In this case he thought he was putting the lyrics to the tune of “Willie O'Winsbury”, but he was basing it on a recording by Sweeney’s Men. The problem was that Sweeney’s Men had accidentally sung the lyrics of “Willie O'Winsbury'” to the tune of a totally different song, “Fause Foodrage”: [Excerpt: Sweeney’s Men, “Willie O’Winsbury”] Thompson took that melody, and set to it lyrics about loss and separation. Thompson has never been one to discuss the meanings of his lyrics in any great detail, and in the case of this one has said “I really don't know what it means. This song came out of a dream, and I pretty much wrote it as I dreamt it (it was the sixties), and didn't spend very long analyzing it. So interpret as you wish – or replace with your own lines.” But in the context of the traffic accident that had killed his tailor girlfriend and a bandmate, and injured most of his other bandmates, the lyrics about lonely travellers, the winding road, bruised and beaten sons, saying goodbye, and never cutting cloth, seem fairly self-explanatory: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Farewell, Farewell”] The rest of the album, though, was taken up by traditional tunes. There was a long medley of four different fiddle reels; a version of “Reynardine” (a song about a seductive man — or is he a fox? Or perhaps both — which had been recorded by Swarbrick and Carthy on their most recent album); a 19th century song about a deserter saved from the firing squad by Prince Albert; and a long take on “Tam Lin”, one of the most famous pieces in the Scottish folk music canon, a song that has been adapted in different ways by everyone from the experimental noise band Current 93 to the dub poet Benjamin Zephaniah to the comics writer Grant Morrison: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Tam Lin”] And “Matty Groves”, a song about a man killing his cheating wife and her lover, which actually has a surprisingly similar story to that of “1921” from another great concept album from that year, the Who’s Tommy. “Matty Groves” became an excuse for long solos and shows of instrumental virtuosity: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Matty Groves”] The album was recorded in September 1969, after their return from their break in the country and a triumphal performance at the Royal Festival Hall, headlining over fellow Witchseason artists John and Beverly Martyn and Nick Drake. It became a classic of the traditional folk genre — arguably *the* classic of the traditional folk genre. In 2007 BBC Radio 2’s Folk Music Awards gave it an award for most influential folk album of all time, and while such things are hard to measure, I doubt there’s anyone with even the most cursory knowledge of British folk and folk-rock music who would not at least consider that a reasonable claim. But once again, by the time the album came out in November, the band had changed lineups yet again. There was a fundamental split in the band – on one side were Sandy Denny and Richard Thompson, whose stance was, roughly, that Liege and Lief was a great experiment and a fun thing to do once, but really the band had two first-rate songwriters in themselves, and that they should be concentrating on their own new material, not doing these old songs, good as they were. They wanted to take the form of the traditional songs and use that form for new material — they wanted to make British folk-rock, but with the emphasis on the rock side of things. Hutchings, on the other hand, was equally sure that he wanted to make traditional music and go further down the rabbit hole of antiquity. With the zeal of the convert he had gone in a couple of years from being the leader of a band who were labelled “the British Jefferson Airplane” to becoming a serious scholar of traditional folk music. Denny was tired of touring, as well — she wanted to spend more time at home with Trevor Lucas, who was sleeping with other women when she was away and making her insecure. When the time came for the group to go on a tour of Denmark, Denny decided she couldn’t make it, and Hutchings was jubilant — he decided he was going to get A.L. Lloyd into the band in her place and become a *real* folk group. Then Denny reconsidered, and Hutchings was crushed. He realised that while he had always been the leader, he wasn’t going to be able to lead the band any further in the traditionalist direction, and quit the group — but not before he was delegated by the other band members to fire Denny. Until the publication of Richard Thompson’s autobiography in 2022, every book on the group or its members said that Denny quit the band again, which was presumably a polite fiction that the band agreed, but according to Thompson “Before we flew home, we decided to fire Sandy. I don't remember who asked her to leave – it was probably Ashley, who usually did the dirty work. She was reportedly shocked that we would take that step. She may have been fragile beneath the confident facade, but she still knew her worth.” Thompson goes on to explain that the reasons for kicking her out were that “I suppose we felt that in her mind she had already left” and that “We were probably suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, though there wasn't a name for it back then.” They had considered inviting Trevor Lucas to join the band to make Denny more comfortable, but came to the (probably correct) conclusion that while he was someone they got on well with personally, he would be another big ego in a band that already had several, and that being around Denny and Lucas’ volatile relationship would, in Thompson’s phrasing, “have not always given one a feeling of peace and stability.” Hutchings originally decided he was going to join Sweeney’s Men, but that group were falling apart, and their first rehearsal with Hutchings would also be their last as a group, with only Hutchings and guitarist and mandolin player Terry Woods left in the band. They added Woods’ wife Gay, and another couple, Tim Hart and Maddy Prior, and formed a group called Steeleye Span, a name given them by Martin Carthy. That group, like Fairport, went to “get their heads together in the country” for three months and recorded an album of electric versions of traditional songs, Hark the Village Wait, on which Mattacks and another drummer, Gerry Conway, guested as Steeleye Span didn’t at the time have their own drummer: [Excerpt: Steeleye Span, “Blackleg Miner”] Steeleye Span would go on to have a moderately successful chart career in the seventies, but by that time most of the original lineup, including Hutchings, had left — Hutchings stayed with them for a few albums, then went on to form the first of a series of bands, all called the Albion Band or variations on that name, which continue to this day. And this is something that needs to be pointed out at this point — it is impossible to follow every single individual in this narrative as they move between bands. There is enough material in the history of the British folk-rock scene that someone could do a 500 Songs-style podcast just on that, and every time someone left Fairport, or Steeleye Span, or the Albion Band, or Matthews’ Southern Comfort, or any of the other bands we have mentioned or will mention, they would go off and form another band which would then fission, and some of its members would often join one of those other bands. There was a point in the mid-1970s where the Albion Band had two original members of Fairport Convention while Fairport Convention had none. So just in order to keep the narrative anything like wieldy, I’m going to keep the narrative concentrated on the two figures from Fairport — Sandy Denny and Richard Thompson — whose work outside the group has had the most influence on the wider world of rock music more broadly, and only deal with the other members when, as they often did, their careers intersected with those two. That doesn’t mean the other members are not themselves hugely important musicians, just that their importance has been primarily to the folk side of the folk-rock genre, and so somewhat outside the scope of this podcast. While Hutchings decided to form a band that would allow him to go deeper and deeper into traditional folk music, Sandy Denny’s next venture was rather different. For a long time she had been writing far more songs than she had ever played for her bandmates, like “Nothing More”, a song that many have suggested is about Thompson: [Excerpt: Fotheringay, “Nothing More”] When Joe Boyd heard that Denny was leaving Fairport Convention, he was at first elated. Fairport’s records were being distributed by A&M in the US at that point, but Island Records was in the process of opening up a new US subsidiary which would then release all future Fairport product — *but*, as far as A&M were concerned, Sandy Denny *was* Fairport Convention. They were only interested in her. Boyd, on the other hand, loved Denny’s work intensely, but from his point of view *Richard Thompson* was Fairport Convention. If he could get Denny signed directly to A&M as a solo artist before Island started its US operations, Witchseason could get a huge advance on her first solo record, while Fairport could continue making records for Island — he’d have two lucrative acts, on different labels. Boyd went over and spoke to A&M and got an agreement in principle that they would give Denny a forty-thousand-dollar advance on her first solo album — twice what they were paying for Fairport albums. The problem was that Denny didn’t want to be a solo act. She wanted to be the lead singer of a band. She gave many reasons for this — the one she gave to many journalists was that she had seen a Judy Collins show and been impressed, but noticed that Collins’ band were definitely a “backing group”, and as she put it “But that's all they were – a backing group. I suddenly thought, If you're playing together on a stage you might as well be TOGETHER.” Most other people in her life, though, say that the main reason for her wanting to be in a band was her desire to be with her boyfriend, Trevor Lucas. Partly this was due to a genuine desire to spend more time with someone with whom she was very much in love, partly it was a fear that he would cheat on her if she was away from him for long periods of time, and part of it seems to have been Lucas’ dislike of being *too* overshadowed by his talented girlfriend — he didn’t mind acknowledging that she was a major talent, but he wanted to be thought of as at least a minor one. So instead of going solo, Denny formed Fotheringay, named after the song she had written for Fairport. This new band consisted at first of Denny on vocals and occasional piano, Lucas on vocals and rhythm guitar, and Lucas’ old Eclection bandmate Gerry Conway on drums. For a lead guitarist, they asked Richard Thompson who the best guitarist in Britain was, and he told them Albert Lee. Lee in turn brought in bass player Pat Donaldson, but this lineup of the band barely survived a fortnight. Lee *was* arguably the best guitarist in Britain, certainly a reasonable candidate if you could ever have a singular best (as indeed was Thompson himself), but he was the best *country* guitarist in Britain, and his style simply didn’t fit with Fotheringay’s folk-influenced songs. He was replaced by American guitarist Jerry Donahue, who was not anything like as proficient as Lee, but who was still very good, and fit the band’s style much better. The new group rehearsed together for a few weeks, did a quick tour, and then went into the recording studio to record their debut, self-titled, album. Joe Boyd produced the album, but admitted himself that he only paid attention to those songs he considered worthwhile — the album contained one song by Lucas, “The Ballad of Ned Kelly”, and two cover versions of American singer-songwriter material with Lucas singing lead. But everyone knew that the songs that actually *mattered* were Sandy Denny’s, and Boyd was far more interested in them, particularly the songs “The Sea” and “The Pond and the Stream”: [Excerpt: Fotheringay, “The Pond and the Stream”] Fotheringay almost immediately hit financial problems, though. While other Witchseason acts were used to touring on the cheap, all packed together in the back of a Transit van with inexpensive equipment, Trevor Lucas had ambitions of being a rock star and wanted to put together a touring production to match, with expensive transport and equipment, including a speaker system that got nicknamed “Stonehenge” — but at the same time, Denny was unhappy being on the road, and didn’t play many gigs. As well as the band itself, the Fotheringay album also featured backing vocals from a couple of other people, including Denny’s friend Linda Peters. Peters was another singer from the folk clubs, and a good one, though less well-known than Denny — at this point she had only released a couple of singles, and those singles seemed to have been as much as anything else released as a novelty. The first of those, a version of Dylan’s “You Ain’t Goin’ Nowhere” had been released as by “Paul McNeill and Linda Peters”: [Excerpt: Paul McNeill and Linda Peters, “You Ain’t Goin’ Nowhere”] But their second single, a version of John D. Loudermilk’s “You’re Taking My Bag”, was released on the tiny Page One label, owned by Larry Page, and was released under the name “Paul and Linda”, clearly with the intent of confusing particularly gullible members of the record-buying public into thinking this was the McCartneys: [Excerpt: Paul and Linda, “You’re Taking My Bag”] Peters was though more financially successful than almost anyone else in this story, as she was making a great deal of money as a session singer. She actually did another session involving most of Fotheringay around this time. Witchseason had a number of excellent songwriters on its roster, and had had some success getting covers by people like Judy Collins, but Joe Boyd thought that they might possibly do better at getting cover versions if they were performed in less idiosyncratic arrangements. Donahue, Donaldson, and Conway went into the studio to record backing tracks, and vocals were added by Peters and another session singer, who according to some sources also provided piano. They cut songs by Mike Heron of the Incredible String Band: [Excerpt: Linda Peters, “You Get Brighter”] Ed Carter, formerly of The New Nadir but by this time firmly ensconced in the Beach Boys’ touring band where he would remain for the next quarter-century: [Excerpt: Linda Peters, “I Don’t Mind”] John and Beverly Martyn, and Nick Drake: [Excerpt: Elton John, “Saturday Sun”] There are different lineups of musicians credited for those sessions in different sources, but I tend to believe that it’s mostly Fotheringay for the simple reason that Donahue says it was him, Donaldson and Conway who talked Lucas and Denny into the mistake that destroyed Fotheringay because of these sessions. Fotheringay were in financial trouble already, spending far more money than they were bringing in, but their album made the top twenty and they were getting respect both from critics and from the public — in September, Sandy Denny was voted best British female singer by the readers of Melody Maker in their annual poll, which led to shocked headlines in the tabloids about how this “unknown” could have beaten such big names as Dusty Springfield and Cilla Black. Only a couple of weeks after that, they were due to headline at the Albert Hall. It should have been a triumph. But Donahue, Donaldson, and Conway had asked that singing pianist to be their support act. As Donahue said later “That was a terrible miscast. It was our fault. He asked if [he] could do it. Actually Pat, Gerry and I had to talk Sandy and Trevor into [it]… We'd done these demos and the way he was playing – he was a wonderful piano player – he was sensitive enough. We knew very little about his stage-show. We thought he'd be a really good opener for us.” Unfortunately, Elton John was rather *too* good. As Donahue continued “we had no idea what he had in mind, that he was going to do the most incredible rock & roll show ever. He pretty much blew us off the stage before we even got on the stage.” To make matters worse, Fotheringay’s set, which was mostly comprised of new material, was underrehearsed and sloppy, and from that point on no matter what they did people were counting the hours until the band split up. They struggled along for a while though, and started working on a second record, with Boyd again producing, though as Boyd later said “I probably shouldn't have been producing the record. My lack of respect for the group was clear, and couldn't have helped the atmosphere. We'd put out a record that had sold disappointingly, A&M was unhappy. Sandy's tracks on the first record are among the best things she ever did – the rest of it, who cares? And the artwork, Trevor's sister, was terrible. It would have been one thing if I'd been unhappy with it and it sold, and the group was working all the time, making money, but that wasn't the case … I knew what Sandy was capable of, and it was very upsetting to me.” The record would not be released for thirty-eight years: [Excerpt: Fotheringay, “Wild Mountain Thyme”] Witchseason was going badly into debt. Given all the fissioning of bands that we’ve already been talking about, Boyd had been stretched thin — he produced sixteen albums in 1970, and almost all of them lost money for the company. And he was getting more and more disillusioned with the people he was producing. He loved Beverly Martyn’s work, but had little time for her abusive husband John, who was dominating her recording and life more and more and would soon become a solo artist while making her stay at home (and stealing her ideas without giving her songwriting credit). The Incredible String Band were great, but they had recently converted to Scientology, which Boyd found annoying, and while he was working with all sorts of exciting artists like Vashti Bunyan and Nico, he was finding himself less and less important to the artists he mentored. Fairport Convention were a good example of this. After Denny and Hutchings had left the group, they’d decided to carry on as an electric folk group, performing an equal mix of originals by the Swarbrick and Thompson songwriting team and arrangements of traditional songs. The group were now far enough away from the “British Jefferson Airplane” label that they decided they didn’t need a female vocalist — and more realistically, while they’d been able to replace Judy Dyble, nobody was going to replace Sandy Denny. Though it’s rather surprising when one considers Thompson’s subsequent career that nobody seems to have thought of bringing in Denny’s friend Linda Peters, who was dating Joe Boyd at the time (as Denny had been before she met Lucas) as Denny’s replacement. Instead, they decided that Swarbrick and Thompson were going to share the vocals between them. They did, though, need a bass player to replace Hutchings. Swarbrick wanted to bring in Dave Pegg, with whom he had played in the Ian Campbell Folk Group, but the other band members initially thought the idea was a bad one. At the time, while they respected Swarbrick as a musician, they didn’t think he fully understood rock and roll yet, and they thought the idea of getting in a folkie who had played double bass rather than an electric rock bassist ridiculous. But they auditioned him to mollify Swarbrick, and found that he was exactly what they needed. As Joe Boyd later said “All those bass lines were great, Ashley invented them all, but he never could play them that well. He thought of them, but he was technically not a terrific bass player. He was a very inventive, melodic, bass player, but not a very powerful one technically. But having had the part explained to him once, Pegg was playing it better than Ashley had ever played it… In some rock bands, I think, ultimately, the bands that sound great, you can generally trace it to the bass player… it was at that point they became a great band, when they had Pegg.” The new lineup of Fairport decided to move in together, and found a former pub called the Angel, into which all the band members moved, along with their partners and children (Thompson was the only one who was single at this point) and their roadies. The group lived together quite happily, and one gets the impression that this was the period when they were most comfortable with each other, even though by this point they were a disparate group with disparate tastes, in music as in everything else. Several people have said that the only music all the band members could agree they liked at this point was the first two albums by The Band. With the departure of Hutchings from the band, Swarbrick and Thompson, as the strongest personalities and soloists, became in effect the joint leaders of the group, and they became collaborators as songwriters, trying to write new songs that were inspired by traditional music. Thompson described the process as “let’s take one line of this reel and slow it down and move it up a minor third and see what that does to it; let’s take one line of this ballad and make a whole song out of it. Chopping up the tradition to find new things to do… like a collage.” Generally speaking, Swarbrick and Thompson would sit by the fire and Swarbrick would play a melody he’d been working on, the two would work on it for a while, and Thompson would then go away and write the lyrics. This is how the two came up with songs like the nine-minute “Sloth”, a highlight of the next album, Full House, and one that would remain in Fairport’s live set for much of their career: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Sloth”] “Sloth” was titled that way because Thompson and Swarbrick were working on two tunes, a slow one and a fast one, and they jokingly named them “Sloth” and “Fasth”, but the latter got renamed to “Walk Awhile”, while “Sloth” kept its working title. But by this point, Boyd and Thompson were having a lot of conflict in the studio. Boyd was never the most technical of producers — he was one of those producers whose job is to gently guide the artists in the studio and create a space for the music to flourish, rather than the Joe Meek type with an intimate technical knowledge of the studio — and as the artists he was working with gained confidence in their own work they felt they had less and less need of him. During the making of the Full House album, Thompson and Boyd, according to Boyd, clashed on everything — every time Boyd thought Thompson had done a good solo, Thompson would say to erase it and let him have another go, while every time Boyd thought Thompson could do better, Thompson would say that was the take to keep. One of their biggest clashes was over Thompson’s song “Poor Will and the Jolly Hangman”, which was originally intended for release on the album, and is included in current reissues of it: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Poor Will and the Jolly Hangman”] Thompson had written that song inspired by what he thought was the unjust treatment of Alex Bramham, the driver in Fairport’s fatal car crash, by the courts — Bramham had been given a prison sentence of a few months for dangerous driving, while the group members thought he had not been at fault. Boyd thought it was one of the best things recorded for the album, but Thompson wasn’t happy with his vocal — there was one note at the top of the melody that he couldn’t quite hit — and insisted it be kept off the record, even though that meant it would be a shorter album than normal. He did this at such a late stage that early copies of the album actually had the title printed on the sleeve, but then blacked out. He now says in his autobiography “I could have persevered, double-tracked the voice, warmed up for longer – anything. It was a good track, and the record was lacking without it. When the album was re-released, the track was restored with a more confident vocal, and it has stayed there ever since.” During the sessions for Full House the group also recorded one non-album single, Thompson and Swarbrick’s “Now Be Thankful”: [Excerpt, Fairport Convention, “Now Be Thankful”] The B-side to that was a medley of two traditional tunes plus a Swarbrick original, but was given the deliberately ridiculous title “Sir B. McKenzie’s Daughter’s Lament For The 77th Mounted Lancers Retreat From The Straits Of Loch Knombe, In The Year Of Our Lord 1727, On The Occasion Of The Announcement Of Her Marriage To The Laird Of Kinleakie”: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Sir B. McKenzie’s Daughter’s Lament For The 77th Mounted Lancers Retreat From The Straits Of Loch Knombe, In The Year Of Our Lord 1727, On The Occasion Of The Announcement Of Her Marriage To The Laird Of Kinleakie”] The B. McKenzie in the title was a reference to the comic-strip character Barry McKenzie, a stereotype drunk Australian created for Private Eye magazine by the comedian Barry Humphries (later to become better known for his Dame Edna Everage character) but the title was chosen for one reason only — to get into the Guinness Book of Records for the song with the longest title. Which they did, though they were later displaced by the industrial band Test Dept, and their song “Long Live British Democracy Which Flourishes and Is Constantly Perfected Under the Immaculate Guidance of the Great, Honourable, Generous and Correct Margaret Hilda Thatcher. She Is the Blue Sky in the Hearts of All Nations. Our People Pay Homage and Bow in Deep Respect and Gratitude to Her. The Milk of Human Kindness”. Full House got excellent reviews in the music press, with Rolling Stone saying “The music shows that England has finally gotten her own equivalent to The Band… By calling Fairport an English equivalent of the Band, I meant that they have soaked up enough of the tradition of their countryfolk that it begins to show all over, while they maintain their roots in rock.” Off the back of this, the group went on their first US tour, culminating in a series of shows at the Troubadour in LA, on the same bill as Rick Nelson, which were recorded and later released as a live album: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Sloth (live)”] The Troubadour was one of the hippest venues at the time, and over their residency there the group got seen by many celebrities, some of whom joined them on stage. The first was Linda Ronstadt, who initially demurred, saying she didn’t know any of their songs. On being told they knew all of hers, she joined in with a rendition of “Silver Threads and Golden Needles”. Thompson was later asked to join Ronstadt’s backing band, who would go on to become the Eagles, but he said later of this offer “I would have hated it. I’d have hated being on the road with four or five miserable Americans — they always seem miserable. And if you see them now, they still look miserable on stage — like they don’t want to be there and they don’t like each other.” The group were also joined on stage at the Troubadour on one memorable night by some former bandmates of Pegg’s. Before joining the Ian Campbell Folk Group, Pegg had played around the Birmingham beat scene, and had been in bands with John Bonham and Robert Plant, who turned up to the Troubadour with their Led Zeppelin bandmate Jimmy Page (reports differ on whether the fourth member of Zeppelin, John Paul Jones, also came along). They all got up on stage together and jammed on songs like “Hey Joe”, “Louie Louie”, and various old Elvis tunes. The show was recorded, and the tapes are apparently still in the possession of Joe Boyd, who has said he refuses to release them in case he is murdered by the ghost of Peter Grant. According to Thompson, that night ended in a three-way drinking contest between Pegg, Bonham, and Janis Joplin, and it’s testament to how strong the drinking culture is around Fairport and the British folk scene in general that Pegg outdrank both of them. According to Thompson, Bonham was found naked by a swimming pool two days later, having missed two gigs. For all their hard rock image, Led Zeppelin were admirers of a lot of the British folk and folk-rock scene, and a few months later Sandy Denny would become the only outside vocalist ever to appear on a Led Zeppelin record when she duetted with Plant on “The Battle of Evermore” on the group’s fourth album: [Excerpt: Led Zeppelin, “The Battle of Evermore”] Denny would never actually get paid for her appearance on one of the best-selling albums of all time. That was, incidentally, not the only session that Denny was involved in around this time — she also sang on the soundtrack to a soft porn film titled Swedish Fly Girls, whose soundtrack was produced by Manfred Mann: [Excerpt: Sandy Denny, “What Will I Do With Tomorrow?”] Shortly after Fairport’s trip to America, Joe Boyd decided he was giving up on Witchseason. The company was now losing money, and he was finding himself having to produce work for more and more acts as the various bands fissioned. The only ones he really cared about were Richard Thompson, who he was finding it more and more difficult to work with, Nick Drake, who wanted to do his next album with just an acoustic guitar anyway, Sandy Denny, who he felt was wasting her talents in Fotheringay, and Mike Heron of the Incredible String Band, who was more distant since his conversion to Scientology. Boyd did make some attempts to keep the company going. On a trip to Sweden, he negotiated an agreement with the manager and publisher of a Swedish band whose songs he’d found intriguing, the Hep Stars. Boyd was going to publish their songs in the UK, and in return that publisher, Stig Anderson, would get the rights to Witchseason’s catalogue in Scandinavia — a straight swap, with no money changing hands. But before Boyd could get round to signing the paperwork, he got a better offer from Mo Ostin of Warners — Ostin wanted Boyd to come over to LA and head up Warners’ new film music department. Boyd sold Witchseason to Island Records and moved to LA with his fiancee Linda Peters, spending the next few years working on music for films like Deliverance and A Clockwork Orange, as well as making his own documentary about Jimi Hendrix, and thus missed out on getting the UK publishing rights for ABBA, and all the income that would have brought him, for no money. And it was that decision that led to the breakup of Fotheringay. Just before Christmas 1970, Fotheringay were having a difficult session, recording the track “John the Gun”: [Excerpt: Fotheringay, “John the Gun”] Boyd got frustrated and kicked everyone out of the session, and went for a meal and several drinks with Denny. He kept insisting that she should dump the band and just go solo, and then something happened that the two of them would always describe differently. She asked him if he would continue to produce her records if she went solo, and he said he would. According to Boyd’s recollection of the events, he meant that he would fly back from California at some point to produce her records. According to Denny, he told her that if she went solo he would stay in Britain and not take the job in LA. This miscommunication was only discovered after Denny told the rest of Fotheringay after the Christmas break that she was splitting the band. Jerry Donahue has described that as the worst moment of his life, and Denny felt very guilty about breaking up a band with some of her closest friends in — and then when Boyd went over to the US anyway she felt a profound betrayal. Two days before Fotheringay’s final concert, in January 1971, Sandy Denny signed a solo deal with Island records, but her first solo album would not end up produced by Joe Boyd. Instead, The North Star Grassman and the Ravens was co-produced by Denny, John Wood — the engineer who had worked with Boyd on pretty much everything he’d produced, and Richard Thompson, who had just quit Fairport Convention, though he continued living with them at the Angel, at least until a truck crashed into the building in February 1971, destroying its entire front wall and forcing them to relocate. The songs chosen for The North Star Grassman and the Ravens reflected the kind of choices Denny would make on her future albums, and her eclectic taste in music. There was, of course, the obligatory Dylan cover, and the traditional folk ballad “Blackwaterside”, but there was also a cover version of Brenda Lee’s “Let’s Jump the Broomstick”: [Excerpt: Sandy Denny, “Let’s Jump the Broomstick”] Most of the album, though, was made up of originals about various people in Denny’s life, like “Next Time Around”, about her ex-boyfriend Jackson C Frank: [Excerpt: Sandy Denny, “Next Time Around”] The album made the top forty in the UK — Denny’s only solo album to do so — and led to her once again winning the “best female singer” award in Melody Maker’s readers’ poll that year — the male singer award was won by Rod Stewart. Both Stewart and Denny appeared the next year on the London Symphony Orchestra’s all-star version of The Who’s Tommy, which had originally been intended as a vehicle for Stewart before Roger Daltrey got involved. Stewart’s role was reduced to a single song, “Pinball Wizard”, while Denny sang on “It’s a Boy”: [Excerpt: Sandy Denny, “It’s a Boy”] While Fotheringay had split up, all the band members play on The North Star Grassman and the Ravens. Guitarists Donahue and Lucas only play on a couple of the tracks, with Richard Thompson playing most of the guitar on the record. But Fotheringay’s rhythm section of Pat Donaldson and Gerry Conway play on almost every track. Another musician on the album, Ian Whiteman, would possibly have a profound effect on the future direction of Richard Thompson’s career and life. Whiteman was the former keyboard player for the mod band The Action, having joined them just before they became the blues-rock band Mighty Baby. But Mighty Baby had split up when all of the band except the lead singer had converted to Islam. Richard Thompson was on his own spiritual journey at this point, and became a Sufi – the same branch of Islam as Whiteman – soon after the session, though Thompson has said that his conversion was independent of Whiteman’s. The two did become very close and work together a lot in the mid-seventies though. Thompson had supposedly left Fairport because he was writing material that wasn’t suited to the band, but he spent more than a year after quitting the group working on sessions rather than doing anything with his own material, and these sessions tended to involve the same core group of musicians. One of the more unusual was a folk-rock supergroup called The Bunch, put together by Trevor Lucas. Richard Branson had recently bought a recording studio, and wanted a band to test it out before opening it up for commercial customers, so with this free studio time Lucas decided to record a set of fifties rock and roll covers. He gathered together Thompson, Denny, Whiteman, Ashley Hutchings, Dave Mattacks, Pat Donaldson, Gerry Conway, pianist Tony Cox, the horn section that would later form the core of the Average White Band, and Linda Peters, who had now split up with Joe Boyd and returned to the UK, and who had started dating Thompson. They recorded an album of covers of songs by Jerry Lee Lewis, the Everly Brothers, Johnny Otis and others: [Excerpt: The Bunch, “Willie and the Hand Jive”] The early seventies was a hugely productive time for this group of musicians, as they all continued playing on each other’s projects. One notable album was No Roses by Shirley Collins, which featured Thompson, Mattacks, Whiteman, Simon Nicol, Lal and Mike Waterson, and Ashley Hutchings, who was at that point married to Collins, as well as some more unusual musicians like the free jazz saxophonist Lol Coxhill: [Excerpt: Shirley Collins and the Albion Country Band, “Claudy Banks”] Collins was at the time the most respected female singer in British traditional music, and already had a substantial career including a series of important records made with her sister Dolly, work with guitarists like Davey Graham, and time spent in the 1950s collecting folk songs in the Southern US with her then partner Alan Lomax – according to Collins she did much of the actual work, but Lomax only mentioned her in a single sentence in his book on this work. Some of the same group of musicians went on to work on an album of traditional Morris dancing tunes, titled Morris On, credited to “Ashley Hutchings, Richard Thompson, Dave Mattacks, John Kirkpatrick and Barry Dransfield”, with Collins singing lead on two tracks: [Excerpt: Ashley Hutchings, Richard Thompson, Dave Mattacks, John Kirkpatrick and Barry Dransfield with Shirley Collins, “The Willow Tree”] Thompson thought that that album was the best of the various side projects he was involved in at the time, comparing it favourably to Rock On, which he thought was rather slight, saying later “Conceptually, Fairport, Ashley and myself and Sandy were developing a more fragile style of music that nobody else was particularly interested in, a British Folk Rock idea that had a logical development to it, although we all presented it our own way. Morris On was rather more true to what we were doing. Rock On was rather a retro step. I'm not sure it was lasting enough as a record but Sandy did sing really well on the Buddy Holly songs.” Hutchings used the musicians on No Roses and Morris On as the basis for his band the Albion Band, which continues to this day. Simon Nicol and Dave Mattacks both quit Fairport to join the Albion Band, though Mattacks soon returned. Nicol would not return to Fairport for several years, though, and for a long period in the mid-seventies Fairport Convention had no original members. Unfortunately, while Collins was involved in the Albion Band early on, she and Hutchings ended up divorcing, and the stress from the divorce led to Collins developing spasmodic dysphonia, a stress-related illness which makes it impossible for the sufferer to sing. She did eventually regain her vocal ability, but between 1978 and 2016 she was unable to perform at all, and lost decades of her career. Richard Thompson occasionally performed with the Albion Band early on, but he was getting stretched a little thin with all these sessions. Linda Peters said later of him “When I came back from America, he was working in Sandy’s band, and doing sessions by the score. Always with Pat Donaldson and Dave Mattacks. Richard would turn up with his guitar, one day he went along to do a session with one of those folkie lady singers — and there were Pat and DM. They all cracked. Richard smashed his amp and said “Right! No more sessions!” In 1972 he got round to releasing his first solo album, Henry the Human Fly, which featured guest appearances by Linda Peters and Sandy Denny among others: [Excerpt: Richard Thompson, “The Angels Took My Racehorse Away”] Unfortunately, while that album has later become regarded as one of the classics of its genre, at the time it was absolutely slated by the music press. The review in Melody Maker, for example, read in part “Some of Richard Thompson’s ideas sound great – which is really the saving grace of this album, because most of the music doesn’t. The tragedy is that Thompson’s “British rock music” is such an unconvincing concoction… Even the songs that do integrate rock and traditional styles of electric guitar rhythms and accordion and fiddle decoration – and also include explicit, meaningful lyrics are marred by bottle-up vocals, uninspiring guitar phrases and a general lack of conviction in performance.” Henry the Human Fly was released in the US by Warners, who had a reciprocal licensing deal with Island (and for whom Joe Boyd was working at the time, which may have had something to do with that) but according to Thompson it became the lowest-selling record that Warners ever put out (though I’ve also seen that claim made about Van Dyke Parks’ Song Cycle, another album that has later been rediscovered). Thompson was hugely depressed by this reaction, and blamed his own singing. Happily, though, by this point he and Linda had become a couple — they would marry in 1972 — and they started playing folk clubs as a duo, or sometimes in a trio with Simon Nicol. Thompson was also playing with Sandy Denny’s backing band at this point, and played on every track on her second solo album, Sandy. This album was meant to be her big commercial breakthrough, with a glamorous cover photo by David Bailey, and with a more American sound, including steel guitar by Sneaky Pete Kleinow of the Flying Burrito Brothers (whose overdubs were supervised in LA by Joe Boyd): [Excerpt: Sandy Denny, “Tomorrow is a Long Time”] The album was given a big marketing push by Island, and “Listen, Listen” was made single of the week on the Radio 1 Breakfast show: [Excerpt: Sandy Denny, “Listen, Listen”] But it did even worse than the previous album, sending her into something of a depression. Linda Thompson (as the former Linda Peters now was) said of this period “After the Sandy album, it got her down that her popularity didn't suddenly increase in leaps and bounds, and that was the start of her really fretting about the way her career was going. Things only escalated after that. People like me or Martin Carthy or Norma Waterson would think, ‘What are you on about? This is folk music.'” After Sandy’s release, Denny realised she could no longer afford to tour with a band, and so went back to performing just acoustically or on piano. The only new music to be released by either of these ex-members of Fairport Convention in 1973 was, oddly, on an album by the band they were no longer members of. After Thompson had left Fairport, the group had managed to release two whole albums with the same lineup — Swarbrick, Nicol, Pegg, and Mattacks. But then Nicol and Mattacks had both quit the band to join the Albion Band with their former bandmate Ashley Hutchings, leading to a situation where the Albion Band had two original members of Fairport plus their longtime drummer while Fairport Convention itself had no original members and was down to just Swarbrick and Pegg. Needing to fulfil their contracts, they then recruited three former members of Fotheringay — Lucas on vocals and rhythm guitar, Donahue on lead guitar, and Conway on drums. Conway was only a session player at the time, and Mattacks soon returned to the band, but Lucas and Donahue became full-time members. This new lineup of Fairport Convention released two albums in 1973, widely regarded as the group’s most inconsistent records, and on the title track of the first, “Rosie”, Richard Thompson guested on guitar, with Sandy Denny and Linda Thompson on backing vocals: [Excerpt: Fairport Convention, “Rosie”] Neither Sandy Denny nor Richard Thompson released a record themselves in 1973, but in neither case was this through the artists’ choice. The record industry was changing in the early 1970s, as we’ll see in later episodes, and was less inclined to throw good money after bad in the pursuit of art. Island Records prided itself on being a home for great artists, but it was still a business, and needed to make money. We’ll talk about the OPEC oil crisis and its effect on the music industry much more when the podcast gets to 1973, but in brief, the production of oil by the US peaked in 1970 and started to decrease, leading to them importing more and more oil from the Middle East. As a result of this, oil prices rose slowly between 1971 and 1973, then very quickly towards the end of 1973 as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict that year. As vinyl is made of oil, suddenly producing records became much more expensive, and in this period a lot of labels decided not to release already-completed albums, until what they hoped would be a brief period of shortages passed. Both Denny and Thompson recorded albums at this point that got put to one side by Island. In the case of Thompson, it was the first album by Richard and Linda as a duo, I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight: [Excerpt: Richard and Linda Thompson, “I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight”] Today, I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight is widely regarded as one of the greatest albums of all time, and as one of the two masterpieces that bookended Richard and Linda’s career as a duo and their marriage. But when they recorded the album, full of Richard’s dark songs, it was the opposite of commercial. Even a song that’s more or less a boy-girl song, like “Has He Got a Friend for Me?” has lyrics like “He wouldn’t notice me passing by/I could be in the gutter, or dangling down from a tree” [Excerpt: Richard and Linda Thompson, “Has He got a Friend For Me?”] While something like “The Calvary Cross” is oblique and haunted, and seems to cast a pall over the entire album: [Excerpt: Richard and Linda Thompson, “The Calvary Cross”] The album itself had been cheap to make — it had been recorded in only a week, with Thompson bringing in musicians he knew well and had worked with a lot previously to cut the tracks as-live in only a handful of takes — but Island didn’t think it was worth releasing. The record stayed on the shelf for nearly a year after recording, until Island got a new head of A&R, Richard Williams. Williams said of the album’s release “Muff Winwood had been doing A&R, but he was more interested in production… I had a conversation with Muff as soon as I got there, and he said there are a few hangovers, some outstanding problems. And one of them was Richard Thompson. He said there’s this album we gave him the money to make — which was I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight — and nobody’s very interested in it. Henry the Human Fly had been a bit of a commercial disappointment, and although Island was altruistic and independent and known for only recording good stuff, success was important… Either a record had to do well or somebody had to believe in it a lot. And it seemed as if neither of those things were true at that point of Richard.” Williams, though, was hugely impressed when he listened to the album. He compared Richard Thompson’s guitar playing to John Coltrane’s sax, and called Thompson “the folk poet of the rainy streets”, but also said “Linda brightened it, made it more commercial. and I thought that “Bright Lights” itself seemed a really commercial song.” The rest of the management at Island got caught up in Williams’ enthusiasm, and even decided to release the title track as a single: [Excerpt: Richard and Linda Thompson, “I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight”] Neither single nor album charted — indeed it would not be until 1991 that Richard Thompson would make a record that made the top forty in the UK — but the album got enough critical respect that Richard and Linda released two albums the year after. The first of these, Hokey Pokey, is a much more upbeat record than their previous one — Richard Thompson has called it “quite a music-hall influenced record” and cited the influence of George Formby and Harry Lauder. For once, the claim of music hall influence is audible in the music. Usually when a British musician is claimed to have a music ha

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