Podcasts about anthem church

Text: Romans 3:9-20For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Sam Hamstra, Lead Pastor of Anthem Church, a fast-growing, multi-ethnic and multi-generational church serving Northwest Indiana and Chicagoland. Anthem became an independent church in March 2020—the same week the world shut down—and has since grown to multiple locations and thousands of people. In this conversation, Sam shares how clarity around mission, values, discipleship, and vision has helped Anthem develop a distinct ministry culture and sustain healthy growth. Does your church know exactly who it is and how it does ministry? Are your leaders aligned around a shared playbook—or are you borrowing someone else's model without adapting it to your context? Sam offers practical lessons on creating organizational clarity that shapes everything from calendars to leadership development. Move from imitation to innovation. // Sam is quick to acknowledge how much Anthem learned from churches and networks that came before them. But even before Anthem launched, he began recognizing that another church's model could not simply be copied and pasted into Northwest Indiana. The local culture, demographics, ministry environment, and people were different. Healthy leaders learn from others while also doing the harder work of discerning what God is uniquely calling their church to become. Clarity takes courage. // Copying an established model feels safe because leaders can see evidence that it works somewhere else. Developing your own approach requires greater faith because the outcome is less predictable. Sam believes churches must have the courage to move into that uncertainty. Rather than endlessly chasing the next successful strategy, leaders should prayerfully identify the unique blueprint God has given their church and commit to it. Define your “way.” // Inspired by Patrick Lencioni's The Advantage, Sam and his leadership team spent roughly nine months working through five foundational questions: Why do we exist? How do we behave? What do we do? How do we live? Where are we going? Their answers eventually became what they call “The Anthem Way”—a framework that brings clarity to mission, values, discipleship, spiritual formation, and long-term vision. Mission and vision are not the same thing. // Anthem's mission is to lead people to know Christ and make Him known. That mission remains constant because it flows from the Great Commission. Vision answers a different question: where is God taking this particular church? Separating those ideas has helped Anthem distinguish between the timeless calling of the church and the specific future they believe God is leading them toward. Let your discipleship pathway drive the calendar. // One of the biggest benefits of clarity has been simplifying Anthem's yearly ministry calendar. Instead of allowing every ministry to bring new ideas and events to the table, leaders evaluate opportunities through their defined discipleship pathway. The result is greater focus and consistency. Sam says their annual rhythm has remained largely the same for years, helping both staff and attenders understand what comes next. Boring can be a strength. // Churches often feel pressure to constantly create something new, but Sam has learned that repetition can be one of the greatest drivers of health. Anthem maintains a weekly prayer gathering, predictable discipleship rhythms, and recurring ministry events rather than continually reinventing the calendar. The goal is not novelty. It is consistency around the few things the church believes matter most. Create intentional invite moments. // Anthem builds four major invite opportunities into its annual rhythm: Easter, a Summer Kickoff, Homecoming, and Christmas. These predictable moments give the congregation specific opportunities to invite friends and family. Sam has seen the church grow following these events because people know when the church is intentionally creating space for them to bring someone who may not normally attend. Values have to become behaviors. // Anthem's core values include “We Love People,” “We Choose Joy,” and “We Bleed Passion.” But Sam emphasizes that values only matter when people can see them lived out. Loving people means creating a culture where people can belong before they behave. Choosing joy means approaching ministry with gratitude rather than obligation. Bleeding passion means refusing to settle for the status quo and remaining willing to change as God leads. Use clarity to protect multisite culture. // As Anthem expands to additional locations, the Anthem Way provides clear boundaries for what must remain consistent. Sam is not claiming Anthem's approach is the only way to do church, but he does believe it is important for every one of their locations to understand and embody Anthem's distinct way of doing ministry. That documented clarity gives leaders freedom while protecting the culture across campuses. Check out Anthem Church’s About page to see how their story, mission, values, and discipleship pathway fit together. You can also follow @SamHamstra and @ThisIsAnthemChurch on Instagram. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is a funny one because literally yesterday I was talking to a church in a coaching call. We were talking about this exact issue that we’re going to unpack today. They’re wrestling with these things. I know that this is going to help you. So you’ve tuned in for a great conversation today with Sam Hamstra. Super excited to have him. He and his wife, Taylor, they founded Anthem Church in March 2020 with a vision and heart to lead people to know Christ and make them know known. Rich Birch — Over the past few years they have seen this mission become a reality, continues to grow. It’s a multi-ethnic, multi-generational family made up of thousands of people from all walks of life in Northwestern Indiana, Chicagoland, and beyond. It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country. So honored that you’re with us today, Sam. Welcome.Sam Hamstra — Rich, so honored to be with you. This is a full circle moment for me. I’ve been following you for quite some time. So super honored to be on your on your show.Rich Birch — Oh, come on. That’s I’m glad you’re here. We, we’ve got a lot to learn from you today. So March, 2020, it’s one of those dates that sticks in all of our brains. Cause like, we all know, what were you doing? March 15th, 2020. We all can say exactly what we’re, where we were. That’s a wild month to, to launch.Rich Birch — It’s funny because I keep bumping into people who are telling a similar story. They’re like, we started during the pandemic, right at the beginning, right after that sort of thing. Give us a picture today and kind of from that moment all the way on to today, kind of bring the story, bring us, tell us a little bit about Anthem. Give us a flavor of the church.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so we currently today we’re headquartered in Hammond, Indiana, which when we say Indiana, different people have different thoughts. But we’re we’re actually butting up to Chicago.Rich Birch — Yep.Sam Hamstra — Joking around right now, we’re going to be the future home of the Chicago Bears soon.Rich Birch — Nice.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. But um yeah, so we’re headquartered in Hammond. Our second location is in Merrillville, Indiana, about 30 minutes from here. So currently um our family’s grown to about 2,500 people in English. And we also have a Spanish service as well. And God’s done a phenomenal work over a six-year time frame.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so we did launch in March of 2020. Our first Sunday was the same Sunday the world shut down.Rich Birch — Wow.Sam Hamstra — And so the third week of March was our first service on the internet.Rich Birch — Dude, that’s amazing.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s incredible.Sam Hamstra — Yes. So in God’s divine plan, kind of underneath our origin story, we we were actually a part of a church in Tinley Park, Illinois. We were a location of that church called Christian Life Center.Sam Hamstra — And our senior pastor and I, Pastor Jerry McQuay, we had been having an ongoing conversation about him making us independent, which is a whole long story. And he decided to really lean into what he believed God was doing in our lives and in this region and made us independent in God’s divine plan. That started in March of 2020. Rich Birch — Wow.Sam Hamstra — And so we transitioned from being a multi part of a multi site church a location up to being independent in March. And yeah, we started with nothing. We didn’t have any cameras, didn’t have anything. I called our media guy and said, do you have anything at your house? And he brought it. Yeah.Rich Birch — What gear you got in your basement? Yeah, that’s amazing.Sam Hamstra — Yeah and he he brought a camera from his house. And yeah, that’s how we started. One continuous shot streaming online. And that was the start of Anthem Church in March of 2020.Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, that’s amazing.Sam Hamstra — So God’s done a great work.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. That’s incredible. That’s cool to hear and fun to see where it’s come, you know, since then. When you look back on that experience, you know, a lot of what you’re trying to define in those early days of a church, you’re trying to bring clarity to like, what is our approach? And part of what we do is you know, we there’s ah there’s, I think, some good copying and pasting. You’re like, hey, here’s the way they do it over here. Maybe we could try a little bit that. But then eventually you start kind of coming up with your own way. You kind of birth your own a approach, playbook, you might call it. Rich Birch — When did you start to feel… ah the kind of transition from, hey, I just want to do it like in this case, either CLC or another church over there. And you started to realize, hey, there’s something unique here at Anthem. And we got to try to define some of that. Talk us through maybe from um a timeline point of view or from a revelation point of view, like, oh, this is kind of things I started to see. Talk us through what that looked like.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so about two years before we launched Anthem, God started to really kind of do a work in our heart just on unique DNA. And we were coming out of like heavily influenced by ARC, Church of the Highlands, and learned so much from there.Sam Hamstra — And we’re seeing just how like clarity really was so important on where we’re going.Sam Hamstra — And so we were coming in there and I just was really praying and seeking the Lord on, okay, this is great. But in our context here, there’s some some differences, there’s some nuances.Sam Hamstra — This is, um we’re over here. what What does this look like here? And so really took the foundation of that and started looking at what does this look like? So when we started Anthem, it was with the thought of, we really want to lean into this unique blueprint of how God designed us and what God has called us to here. Sam Hamstra — So it really started from the jump from from day one. And so but it was a couple years ahead of time to say, OK, this is great. Let’s let’s use this. Let’s we’ve been imitating. Let’s imitate now move to a little bit of innovation and what the Lord would have for us.Rich Birch — Yeah, and there’s obviously there’s like an art and science to that, right? There’s like the, the yeah, insert whatever church, Church of the Highlands is fantastic. They’re doing a great thing, but you’re not Birmingham, Alabama. And you know and so there’s cultural differences, there’s community differences, there’s different resources and all that. That’s like the kind of science-y part of it. Rich Birch — But then there’s the art part of it, which is a little bit more… like intuitives, it’s like vibes, that kind of thing. How did you discern, okay, what are those things that we should be thinking about that are different that you start, or maybe things you started to see, evidence you started to see like, oh, maybe this isn’t working, just importing. Was there evidence of that that you saw?Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so like, and it was like small things, you know, just on approach to Sunday service. Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — You know, like, hey, this is open door, we don’t do this on Sunday. And we had just been starting to see like pretty early on, we’re we’re reaching lost people through like a hard approach to the gospel.Sam Hamstra — And it was just like, it wasn’t really seeker sensitive. Rich Birch — Sure.Sam Hamstra — It wasn’t, not saying they are, but just, it was just a little bit different in in our context where people were coming from. On the multi-ethnic side, it was just some approaches being super intentional with sounds, sights, all of that in in our context. And so, and even on the discipleship model, you know, groups, what kind of groups are we doing? How are we setting these up?Sam Hamstra — And so it was definitely like these nuances in the different categories, I would say, of discipleship that we started to pay attention to. That that was really the start, I think, of innovating what we have now.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Why do you think so many of us just reach for someone else’s model rather than doing the longer, harder, deeper, like it’s more annoying work to try to define you know our own thing and and then ultimately to document it which we’re going to get to here. what What did you actually do to kind of try to codify that? But why do you think we avoid that as leaders?Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so I think on one end, what’s established, you can see that the model works. And so um there’s great success you’re seeing. I mean, it’s working everywhere. And so I think it’s safe. And so deep down, it’s like this is established. I see it work. And so I can kind of press play on this. And and I know to a level that this this works. Sam Hamstra — And so it takes courage to do something that you haven’t seen before. Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — And deep, deep down, i think in our hearts, to me, that’s probably foundational thing. It’s like, man, I haven’t really seen this so his is going to require some courage, require some faith to press into the unknown.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Sam Hamstra — And so I do think that unknown word leads to some different decisions sometimes.Rich Birch — Well, and your church is an interesting um example just because it’s grown so quickly. I, you know, even in the… the lead up to it, I was thinking about, you know, the word, the term church plant.Rich Birch — Like, I don’t know when that term, you know, I was talking with a church that had been around for 30 years and they’re a big church. They’re like 20,000 people. And they, the lead pastor was like, well, we still think of ourselves as a church plant. And I’m like, yeah, I don’t at some point you stop being a church plant and just be, you start being a church. Rich Birch — And I think actually this is one of those, one of those differentiations is when you start saying, okay, like we’re going to, we believe that kind of God’s called us to this unique thing. There’s something in there. You built something that I think you call the Anthem Way. Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — Walk us through what that is. How does it function? What is the Anthem Way? Help us understand that.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so this was actually birthed in an odd place. I was reading “The Advantage” by Patrick Lencioni,…Rich Birch — Yeah. Sam Hamstra — …and he was talking about organizational health, and one of the keys is clarity. Rich Birch — Yes.Sam Hamstra — And I had I have kind of, I’m somewhat of a mutt in church in my upbringing. Rich Birch — Love it.Sam Hamstra — So I’ve been in a lot of different environments and seen to a lot of different things. And so it was really just kind of like looking like, how can we just be crystal clear on who we are, where we’re going and different things. And so I read that book and in that book, he actually laid out these questions that he was like kind of pointing to every successful organization needs to answer.Sam Hamstra — And Iwas kind of seeing that with some of the stuff I’ve been hearing. And I’m like, and there’s a couple of missing pieces for me that he pointed to that I thought was so important in church world that I would actually point to that have been some of the biggest things I think that have been what I would call probably the secret sauce of what we’ve seen as far as clarity. Sam Hamstra — Just the separation of something simple, but the difference between mission and vision, you know, why we exist compared to where we’re going. And so, yeah, I read that book and in there he laid out questions that you need to answer. I took that to our leadership team and we wrestled with these probably for about nine months. Sam Hamstra — I’m just going back and forth on wording, how we say things. question by question in five different questions. We answered those and we gave it a name called the Anthem Way. And so that was the foundation, but I want to give credit where credit is due. It came through the book, The Advantage by Patrick Lencioni. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, no, that’s great. That’s fantastic. And I, you know, one of the things I love that you’ve hit on here is I’ve talked in other contexts that our vision, well, this is the problem with with vision, mission stuff is it’s like, first you have to have a conversation. How do you define vision? How do you define mission?Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — But the big thing that we’re called to, the big idea, it comes from Jesus, right? We’re supposed to reach people and grow them up in in in relationship with him. All churches should have that as their core. That is at the core of what we do. Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — But getting clear on how we do that, you know, these other questions I’m assuming has helped give you a bit of a more of an edge, something that’s a little bit different. Do you want to rattle through the five questions… Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and maybe some high level, I know we can’t get into all the detail, but kind of high level how you’ve answered it. And then the follow-up I’m going ask you is, which are those couple that have given you what you think are the biggest distinctives around Anthem… Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Okay. Rich Birch — …that kind of that that kind of, um you know, that provide that edge that’s a little different, you think.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. So five questions and I’ll rattle them off quick. But so first one is why do we exist? Mission – the mission question, um which you just said it, I 100% agree, you know, every church really is called to the same thing. Let’s make disciples who make disciples, the Great Commission is still our first priority.Sam Hamstra — And so the way we say that is to lead people to know Christ and make them known. That was something we just prayed into language. We want to share language that people could really rally around. Sam Hamstra — Next question is how do we behave? The values question. We wanted to boil down in our culture those not aspirational values like truly who we are. So we boil those down to three things and wrestle with the language a lot. We wanted them actionable, but we choose joy. We love people and we believe passion. Sam Hamstra — And those all have disclaimers and really feed into our culture of what we call multi-everything. We love people from all walks of life, belong before you behave, and all that falls in there.Sam Hamstra — What do we do? Patrick Lencioni was talking about how that’s really your your business definition, so to speak, not for external use, but internal. We answered that with, we provide defined discipleship pathway.Sam Hamstra — It’s what we do day in and day out. It’s why we wake up in the morning. We’re not trying to reinvent the wheel. We’re not a country club. We’re not here to make money, we’re a church and and this is this is how we do, like what we do to ah to reach our why.Sam Hamstra — How we live is the spiritual question for us. We wanna make disciples. So we wanted to be able to weigh spiritually what a disciple is. And so we looked at Acts 2:42, which we felt like was a really good, definition of these handles on a disciple. And so we have five kind of disclaimers on what we want to see in our people at our church. And we offer resources on those, but from daily devotion to prayer to we share our Jesus story. How do you testify? How do we share? How do we make Christ known?Sam Hamstra — And then the last one is where are we going, which is the vision question. And we’ve we’re wrestling with the timing right now. We currently have a 10 year vision statement, which is just kind of pointers on like, this is where we believe God is taking us as a people.Sam Hamstra — And so those five questions are give us the framework for what we call the Anthem Way. What I’ve seen, as basic as it sounds and in our context. And I don’t know if this resonates with anybody. One of the most frustrating meetings I had in church context was the yearly calendar meeting.Rich Birch — Yeah, so true.Sam Hamstra — And I just felt like everybody was coming every year with their own ideas. Some of them had to do with our mission, some didn’t. And these are just in past experiences. And so it just felt like everybody was trying to, and some, you know, just different reasons, good, bad, indifferent.Sam Hamstra — And what what gave me great clarity was to look at our defined discipleship pathway and say, this is how we create our calendar. And um that’s been one thing that has simplified everything for us.Sam Hamstra — So every year in the last six years, our our yearly calendar flow has been the same. And our people are starting to understand it. The next steps fall within it when we even, you know, baptisms, we’re doing it this time. And So that’s been one thing is basically that sounds like what do we do?Rich Birch — No, no, that’s good. I like it.Sam Hamstra — I found a lot of confusion on that in the past, on like, how do we do groups? How do we have services? To define everything within that in the discipleship pathway, to me has been life-giving, not only for us as a team, but as as our church as well.Rich Birch — Yeah. Pull that apart a little bit more. I think, because I think this is where we fall down on this type of work is, you know, and, and I know it’s none of the people that are listening in, but there are churches that like, they do a retreat and we’re like, we’re going away. We’re going we’re reading Lencioni. We’re going to define the five questions. We even make a snappy poster and we put it up on the wall. And then we go back to business as usual. It’s the same thing we’ve always done. But you’ve been able to make the connection there, particularly with the calendar.Rich Birch — Maybe talk us through, give us some examples of how this work is shaping, how you’re actually defining, you know, how you operate as a church.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so one example I would say is prayer. I had somebody call me and I like to think our prayer culture is strong. And they said, how did you get your prayer culture strong? And I said, well, this is really mind blowing. We have a weekly prayer meeting.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Sam Hamstra — And so because of that, and and still as the lead pastor still today, I take responsibility for leading that because I believe it’s it’s a high value for the church. Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — So it’s on the calendar. We you know And we’re not adding to it. It’s just 6 p.m. to 7 every Thursday. And we support it, which I think is the secondary layer behind that because it’s important. Now we have staff support. We have worship team support. We’re, we’re like staying very focused, on a few things rather than getting broad and going to a retreat and saying, this is a silver bullet. I don’t think there, I think the whole thing is a silver bullet, the whole pathway.Rich Birch — Right. Sure.Sam Hamstra — And so we always say, you know, I took this from somebody, but, you know, we want to be Ruth’s Chris, not Ponderosa. We want a one page menu and we really want to just do that.Rich Birch — Yep.Sam Hamstra — And it might even get boring. And we we’re trying to learn that boring is good.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Boring stuff grows churches. I love it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — One of those five is sharing Jesus. Every disciple has one mission, to make Christ known. We don’t keep the gospel to ourselves. We share it through our words, our actions, our lives, wherever we go. We carry the hope of Jesus to a world that needs him.Rich Birch — Unpack some ways that that value drives behavior at the church, that actually drives calendaring and and you know what you’re talking about, that sort of thing.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so deep, you know, we always want to empower everybody to be inviters and not just share. I think the key word in that is share your Jesus story. You know, we have to be people who understand how to share a testimony outside the four walls with it, you know, with a pretty quick invite to be like, hey, come be part of this community if you don’t have a community.Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — And so that is really through calendaring. We that’s really probably intrinsically baked into what we’re doing. So anytime I bring a guest to church, I’m saying it from the pulpit. And this is my friend. They’re here. I invited celebrating those through baptisms.Sam Hamstra — We let people testify of so you’re hearing stories of that. And then really resourcing people to make Christ known by sharing their story, teaching them how to do that.Sam Hamstra — So In the context of the calendar, um you know I took this from your playbook, sir, so thank you. We wanted to create four big events in our flywheel… Rich Birch — Yep. Love it. Sam Hamstra — …that are big invite events, that these are the moments where you need to bring 10 people. Rich Birch — Right. Sam Hamstra — We have found in our calendar since day one that we are seeing people respond to that and our church grows after every single time we do a big event. Rich Birch — That’s great.Sam Hamstra — And so we’re we’re doing four quarterly things.Rich Birch — Are those are those four the same every year? Are they, are they, yeah.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, yes.Rich Birch — So what are they? What are those four? If you don’t want me asking.Sam Hamstra — So, you know, Easter, of course… Rich Birch — Yep. Sam Hamstra — …summer kickoff was something we just created… Rich Birch — Yeah, great. Sam Hamstra — …to start the first Sunday of June. We rented a football field and we just say, bring everybody. We don’t… Rich Birch — That’s great. Sam Hamstra — …in our culture here, this is one thing, like, we’re like, we don’t shrink in the summer. This is a great time to grow.Rich Birch — Keep going forward. Yep. Love it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. And then we created something years ago called Homecoming, just, you know, it was really show up Sunday, invite day. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep. Sam Hamstra — And then Christmas. Rich Birch — Love it.Sam Hamstra — So those are our four homecomings in November on the calendar. It just kind of flows quarterly for us that way.Rich Birch — That’s great. I love it. Well, I love what we’ve seen in fastest growing church in the country, friends that are listening in, is, you know, lots of churches will get, they have two big days, Christmas and Easter. But what we see is the behavior that you’re doing, which is you kind of end up having to make up a couple other days where you’re kind of injecting energy. We’re recording this in the summertime. You know, lots of churches have pulled a page out of Life Church’s book around At the Movies. And they, at the movies is one of their biggest attended days of the year on the the front end of that.Rich Birch — It’s just made up. There’s no reason for you to come the first week of August… Sam Hamstra — Yeah, absolutely. Rich Birch — …but they’ve decided, hey, we’re going to do that. That’s great. So we’re going to link to your about page where a lot of this is on that that page.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — On the how our core values, how we behave: We love people. We bleed passion. We choose joy. There’s some unique stuff in there. So talk me through. We love people, I think could be universally true of lots of churches… Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — …but I’m not sure that every church would say we bleed passion. We choose joy. Talk me through those as how those are kind of a unique thing that is helping you define what it means to be Anthem.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so you know on the love people thing, is you do hear that a lot. And I found there’s a difference between hearing it than living it out. And in religious environments sometimes, you know, I think we all pray we wanna reach the lost until you reach the lost. Rich Birch — True.Sam Hamstra — And our first service, our first Easter Sunday here, we only had one door into our auditorium. And I still remember we had the whole back of the auditorium smelled like weed.Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Okay. Love it.Sam Hamstra — And it was like this tense moment, you know, like of like, okay, this is what we pray for.Rich Birch — Yes.Sam Hamstra — And kind of diving deep into that. So we really own that language within that of we belong before we behave. And so we’re, you know, you can come from all walks of life and we believe Jesus died for all people. So we love all people.Sam Hamstra — And then the we choose joy…Rich Birch — I love that. Before we move on, the thing I love about that… Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — …that you’re calling out, that I do think is a nuance that we miss in too many churches, which is oftentimes we say we want to reach people. But what that comes with is messy pastoral care, hard conversations, stuff that doesn’t make sense, and long nights. Like, it’s just hard. Rich Birch — And, um you know, if you’re, it’s easy to reach Christians from the other church across town. It’s hard to reach people who don’t normally journey in this stuff.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — And I love I love that story, even of your opening weekend with the the smell of weed in the back of the room.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — I love it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Definitely messy.Rich Birch — That’s great. Yes, yes, love it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. You know, the “We choose joy” has just been, um i think one of the greatest testimonies we had was from somebody that just, it was their first time guest. So like, man, everybody feels like they’re the same here. Everybody’s so happy. And we just wanted to build in just this, we believe that, you know, joy should be a badge that every believer wears. It’s just been, you know, you go into the different environments and some people just, it seems like a chore to be alive.Sam Hamstra — And so we just wanted to drive in. This is a privilege to be part of what God is doing in the earth in this hour, even if it doesn’t look perfect. Rich Birch — That’s great. Sam Hamstra — And then with “We bleed passion”, um that’s really our way to say here, you know, if you’re looking for a place that’s content with status quo, you’re probably not going to like it here. We’re always going to be changing. We’re always going to be moving. We’re always going to be shifting. We always want to go with where the Lord is leading. And so we’re a sending church. Don’t get comfortable. There’s always going to be more services. There’s always going to be new churches. Sam Hamstra — So we tried to to really get that in the DNA from the front side.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love it.Rich Birch — I love that “we choose joy”. When I was at Liquid Church, are one of our three in this in this coupling was “Church is fun”. And you know the way we would talk about that is we would say, you know we we we say good news or we say gospel. We’re like, we should be gospel people or we should be good news people. Rich Birch — But what that actually means, how that actually should work itself out in our culture is when people interact with us, those people are a lot of fun to be around. Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Rich Birch — Because they’re redeemed people who have figured out, man, we’re following a God who loves us dearly. So what that should actually like, I love the way you’ve said it, we choose joy. Joy should be the natural outcome of our churches… Sam Hamstra — Yes. Rich Birch — …which is, again, that should not be rocket science, but it’s amazing how much that is a cultural difference or can be a huge cultural difference in many churches.Sam Hamstra — Yes. 100%. Yep.Rich Birch — That’s cool. So um you’ve been using this really throughout your how you develop leaders, how you onboard people, how you, you know, how do you come back to this time and time again? What are you using? How are you using these tools in your leadership development, in your raising up of volunteers, that sort of thing?Sam Hamstra — Yeah, so foundationally, I got to give credit where credit is due once again on this. I heard University of Kentucky’s baseball coach say this about culture, and it was like the best thing I’ve ever heard. He totally transformed his program, and he said it was culture at at the root of it. He said culture is every day. Culture is what you accept, and culture is what you reinforce.Rich Birch — It’s good.Sam Hamstra — And so we try to keep that in front of us as much as we can. It’s you know not something we just say we want to lead the way every day. So within these three, we actually just came out with 10 leadership values that all fit within those three…Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool.Sam Hamstra — …that give a little more language to our leadership, like, you know, we love people, so we park in back. And so really speaking to the culture of, you know, we put other people first, we serve. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Sam Hamstra — And so, you know, we try to outdo each other. You know, I park about a half mile away from church on Sundays. We don’t we don’t do pastor parking, you know, or anything like that. umAnd so just, it’s every day.Rich Birch — Yes.Sam Hamstra — We do a value at every single one of our pre-service huddles on Sunday. So we’re taking those three values every Sunday, one, here’s what we’re doing.Sam Hamstra — And then Leadership Pipeline, we implemented this two years ago and we’re teaching our Anthem way across the board to a new set of leaders three times a year. And so we really zone in on culture a lot. We’ve just realized people coming from a lot of different places and what makes our culture, our culture are these distinctives. And so we’re teaching those and then really trying to walk them out. And the best testimony we’ve been hearing is people say, yeah, we see that in the leadership of the church. So that’s been really cool to hear.Rich Birch — That’s really cool. I love it. And friends, this just reminds me of the like such a foundational thing we’ve all got to get right and work on and then repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.Rich Birch — We’ve got to keep on top of this language and and just come back to it time and time again. So you’re multi-site, you’re you’re going to launch more campuses down the road. Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — How does this tie into that conversation around, you know, there can be in you know, some multi-site churches, there’s like this tension of uniformity, you know, versus autonomy. And like, how how does that how does how does your thinking work out with the Anthem Way in multiple locations?Sam Hamstra — Yeah. So I want to preface this with I’m new, so I am figuring this out in real time. Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Sam Hamstra — I’m coming from from being a campus pastor to now being in the position I’m in. We’re two years into our first ah plant location campus. So and we’ve seen it be successful.Sam Hamstra — But what we’ve agreed on is we are going to be uniform in the Anthem Way. So we’re choosing uniformity and everything that falls within that box of the Anthem Way. Um, and so that has been like the running lanes for us to define what we’re doing, how we’re doing it, the way we talk, the way we move, our style of church, um, and all of that. So that’s been, you know, we’ve been really struggling with, with, with what you just said, that uniformity versus unity versus, you know, autonomy. Sam Hamstra — And so, the Anthem Way is to become our framework on how we’re starting locations. And we feel like as long as everybody’s in sync with all, and it and it entails a lot, right? I mean, how we do church, our approach to a lot of things.Sam Hamstra — And so that’s been that’s been our overarching theme is we want to be uniform in this. Rich Birch — yeah that’s good. Sam Hamstra — And so that’s what we’ve been trying to make sure it’s documented, ready to go.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s an interesting, that’s like a, we could have a whole other half an hour just on on on that issue.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — But one of the things we have seen over the long arc of the multi-site movement is churches that are choosing clarity and um and more, yeah, an understanding of, in your case, what is Anthem and how do we do what we do, those churches are the churches that, from my perspective, and not just statistically, are actually benefiting more from the multi-site movement. Rich Birch — The churches where they’re like, hey, let’s spend a lot of time. It can actually be the worst model because it’s like, we have a lot of people thinking about all the different ways you could potentially do church. As opposed to saying, no, no, like this is the way we’re not, we’re not saying this is the best way. We’re just saying it’s our way. We’re not saying that this is the only way to do it.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — We’re just saying this is the way we do it. And, um and we’re okay with that. We’re settled on on that as an issue.Sam Hamstra — Yeah. That’s good. That’s good.Rich Birch — That’s interesting. Is there anything that changed or that has changed as you, I realize you’ve influenced ben to this from the beginning, but like, has there been anything that has kind of changed as you got clearer on the Anthem Way over the over the years? You know, something you cut or improved or, you know, is there anything that jumps to mind on that front?Sam Hamstra — Yeah, we’re would I might use the word refined rather than changed. Rich Birch — Sure. Yep, that’s good. Sam Hamstra — I was just talking to our discipleship director this morning just on, you know, is there is there a small group model? So like our three kind of handles in our discipleship pathway are know Christ, grow in Christ, and and make Christ known.Sam Hamstra — And, you know, our small group model isn’t working. We added what we call the Mosaic School of Ministry, which is is another thing in Grow. And we’ve actually seen way more interest and success in that. And so, you know, we have a way higher percentage right now going through what we call a School of Ministry, which is classes and and discipleship then we’re getting in small groups. Sam Hamstra — And so we’ve been just kind of wrestling with that a little bit. Like, is that culture, is it good, is it bad? And so I think those those refining moments have have really changed. We started off, though, I feel soft saying this, but it worked in our context. But we would start every year with 21 days of prayer and fasting in the beginning. And do 21 days again in the fall.Rich Birch — Love it.Sam Hamstra — We’ve actually gone down to seven days to start the year. There’s seven days in the fall. We just feel like we’re seeing actually better results with more people getting involved just with those minor tweaks, just to say this…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Sam Hamstra — …his is we’re we’re seeing bigger impact there. Rich Birch — Sure. Sam Hamstra — But so I think those refining things have been really good.Rich Birch — Has there been any of that refining that has come not from you, but from a member of your team? Like, has anyone called you out or called the church out on like, hey, like on prayer or on any of these where, you know, like when that’s happened in my life, I kind of like that. Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — I’m like, oh, well, that’s a pleasant thing that just happened there, even though it feels weird to be the person being called out.Sam Hamstra — Yeah.Rich Birch — Have you had any experiences like that?Sam Hamstra — Yeah. Yes. I’m laughing because, yeah, I’ve had quite a few. I could point to the one with prayer fasting. Rich Birch — Yes. So somebody on our team was like, hey, pastor, you know that there’s really no a place in the Bible where there’s a three week corporate fast. Rich Birch — Sure. Sam Hamstra — Yeah like where the whole church is coming together for three weeks and I’m like well I got a challenge, I’m gonna look. And I’m like sure enough you know, I’m maybe somebody could find it, but it was like these times and seasons where people come together for specific things of like, oh man you’re right. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, love it. Sam Hamstra — So and so that was like one of those um yeah it’s it’s definitely happened quite quite a bit and so which I love that too and so it’s been such a blessing of solid team that feels free to speak when when they need to.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Well, this has been a good conversation, just as we’re kind of coming to land. If you think about a church out there that feels like okay they’ve listened to this and they’re like okay, we maybe they’ve opened up your website. And they’re like, hey, we’re not as clear on this that as we could be, we need to get much clearer on that.Rich Birch — What’s kind of one first step that you would encourage people to take? What would be kind of the best first step towards getting clarity on this front?Sam Hamstra — Write the vision, make it plain so that he that reads it may run.Rich Birch — Dude, I love it. And with that, we end the episode. That’s fantastic. No, that’s great. Unpack that a little bit.Sam Hamstra — Um, you know, I for so much of my life, I was always looking to be so unique and so different. Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — And I felt like I just needed the next best thing. And it was wasn’t until I just locked into this is what the Lord has for us. And it might sound like somebody else it might look and that’s OK, but this going to be very unique to us. And this is what we’re doing. And just to be very clear on that and then just this is for me, but I get bored so easily. And to just, just not get bored and just keep doing the same thing in the same direction day after day.Rich Birch — Right.Sam Hamstra — And in that that flywheel, to use your words, it does work. And just to see that go and to to get very clear and and simple and and let people know where you’re going and just keep saying the same thing over and over is so life-giving.Rich Birch — That’s so good. So good.Rich Birch — Well, I really appreciate you being here today. If we want to send people anywhere online to track with you or to track with the church, where do we want to send them?Sam Hamstra — So first name, last name would be all my personal stuff. So @samhamstra, last name H-A-M-S-T-R-A.Sam Hamstra — And all church stuff is weareanthemchurch.com. And then weareanthemchurch on social as well.Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Appreciate that, Sam. Thanks so much for being here. Honored that you take some time to be with us today.Sam Hamstra — Yeah, thanks so much, Rich, my honor.

Text: John 4:31-35For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 3:1-8For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 2:25-29For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 2:17-24For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 2:12-16For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 2:6-11For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Philippians 1:12-26For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 2:1-5For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dave Ferguson, co-founder of Exponential, co-founder of Community Christian Church, and author of Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. For decades, Dave has championed one central conviction: the Church will never fulfill its mission through addition alone. In this conversation, he challenges church leaders to rethink success, embrace multiplication, and cultivate the kind of personal health that sustains lasting kingdom impact. Are you building a church that grows, or a movement that multiplies? Wondering how your leadership today shapes generations of ministry tomorrow? Dave offers a compelling vision for creating influence that extends far beyond your own church. Multiplication changes everything. // Dave believes many church leaders are asking the wrong question. Instead of waking up each day asking, “How can I grow my church?” he challenges leaders to ask, “How can we multiply God's Kingdom?” That subtle shift transforms every leadership decision, from staffing and budgeting to leadership development and church planting. Growth focuses on adding people to one church. Multiplication focuses on reproducing disciples, leaders, churches, and networks that reach beyond one church long after the original leader steps away. The Church needs a new scorecard. // Only a small percentage of churches in the United States are actively reproducing new churches. Through Exponential’s “16% Mission,” the goal is to move enough churches toward multiplication that reproducing churches become the cultural norm rather than the exception. Reaching this tipping point would fundamentally reshape how churches think about mission and influence. Culture beats strategy every time. // Multiplication doesn’t begin with a sermon series or a strategic initiative—it begins with culture. Dave encourages leaders to model multiplication long before they publicly announce it. Whether leading a small group, mentoring an apprentice, or developing future leaders, pastors must demonstrate the behaviors they hope to reproduce. People adopt what leaders consistently practice far more readily than what they merely promote. Health fuels multiplication—not hustle. // While multiplication requires intentional effort, Dave warns against building ministry on relentless hustle. Instead, healthy multiplication grows out of healthy leaders. Churches don’t simply reproduce strategies. They reproduce the character, priorities, and habits of their leaders. If leaders neglect their own well-being, they will unintentionally reproduce that same dysfunction throughout the organization. Watch the four gauges. // At the heart of Dave’s new book, Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, is a simple daily framework for preventing leadership drift. He encourages leaders to evaluate four areas every day: relational health, physical health, mental health, and spiritual health. By honestly assessing these four “gauges,” leaders can recognize unhealthy patterns before they become major failures. Rather than waking up years later wondering how they drifted so far, leaders make small course corrections every day. Even better, Dave encourages processing these areas with trusted community, since accountability helps combat self-deception. Think beyond your lifetime. // Ultimately, Dave invites leaders to adopt a longer horizon for ministry. Buildings, attendance, and personal accomplishments eventually fade, but investing in people creates lasting kingdom influence. When leaders intentionally multiply healthy disciples and healthy leaders, their ministry continues bearing fruit long after they’re gone. That, Dave believes, is the kind of legacy worth pursuing. To learn more about Dave Ferguson, Exponential, and his new book Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, visit exponential.org/multiplier or daveferguson.org. Email Dave directly to get bulk copies of his book. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You’re in for a real treat today. Today is a leader, you know, you have those leaders in your life. You’re like, man, I wish everybody could be exposed to this person and would follow along. And you feel like you’re introducing a friend to friends. That’s what today’s conversation is. And I hope at the same time, it’ll challenge you and encourage you as we think about the future. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dave Ferguson back on the podcast from Exponential. It is a growing community of leaders committed to accelerating multiplication of healthy, reproducing faith communities. They equip multipliers through a variety of resources. You might know their big event, Exponential, but that’s not all they do. They do a lot of other stuff as well.Rich Birch — Dave also was the co-founder of Community Christian in Chicagoland and New Thing. We actually had Ted on recently for a follow-up episode, which is fantastic. So these will this will come out at a similar time. Dave also wrote a book recently that I want you to pick up. It’s called Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. Dave, welcome to the show.Dave Ferguson — Hey, thanks, Rich. Good to be with you. Rich Birch — Yeah, so glad you’re you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the story for folks that don’t know or maybe aren’t following along. Maybe give us fill out the bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background.Dave Ferguson — Long story short yeah, in my early mid-20s I planted a church in Chicago with a whole bunch of friends. God was very very kind to it; it grew had pretty large, and we had locations across the city and the suburbs. Out of that, then we started planting churches. Our first one was in Denver, then Southern California, and then Detroit, then New York, then Boston. And pretty soon we made a shift that we went from not only reproducing new churches, but helping reproduce networks of new churches. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than and we realized.Dave Ferguson — And we got opportunities then to do that in Europe and then in Africa. And next thing you know, fast forward 15, 20 years, and we were in 69 countries. And this will sound better than it is, but we got to help plant over 35,000 churches. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s incredible. Dave Ferguson — And at the same time, we also started Exponential. And so all three of those things had seemed to have God’s favor on it, grew. And in the last year, I apprenticed a new lead pastor, Ted Coniaris, that you referenced, who is, I guess, recently on the podcast… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Dave Ferguson — …and who’s doing a great job at Community.Dave Ferguson — And then then on top of that, we moved New Thing underneath Exponential. So Exponential actually acquired New Thing. And for us, that feels really good. It was pretty, pretty easy transition, but feels really good because we have something we call the 16% mission that we’re going after. And it’s starting to feel actually achievable now. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool. Dave Ferguson — So I think I think that’s all that’s all the things.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s it. Just that’s it. Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s so good. And, you know, there’s a lot I respect about you and your leadership. But one of the core things I love is you’ve really given your life to multiplication. You’re focused on this idea, helping us think about and then really in the best sort of way, poking and prodding and pushing us to come back to this idea. Rich Birch — I think for many of us, the word multiplication is the kind of thing we can hear it so many times. We can kind of tune it out or it like, what does that actually mean? Aren’t we all committed to multiplication? Isn’t it, isn’t that just what it means? So why does it still matter to the church today? Really lay it on thick here. Why is multiplication such a big deal?Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I mean, two things real quick. I mean, one for every one of your listeners, if they’re involved in ministry, I mean, they want, they they’re trading their life and they want to make the greatest impact they can. And I’m telling you, when you don’t invest in multiplication, you’re short selling yourself. You’re not going to, you’re not going to get to make the kind of impact that God intended for you to, or you possibly could.Dave Ferguson — So, I mean, Let me give you a quick example, so it becomes real tangible.Dave Ferguson — So two weeks ago, I was in Long Beach, California, and I ran into Matt Larson. Matt’s a guy who did a leadership residency with us probably, man, it’s been a long time ago now, 15 years ago. So he basically came, spent a year with us at Community, really sharp leader, but he didn’t really understand how to multiply. And we kind of helped him understand how to do that. Dave Ferguson — So he does that, goes back to Ventura, California, plants Anthem Church, and they’ve planted 15 churches. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Dave Ferguson — So think about this and this this. And I don’t know how you keep score, but this is how I keep score with my own, how am I making a difference?Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — So like even like if I’m taking a day off in Chicago… Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — …Matt’s still working in Ventura, California, and he’s planting churches. Rich Birch — Right. Amazing.Dave Ferguson — And I, you know, you’ve heard me probably say like my favorite quote from Bob Buford, my fruit grows in other people’s trees.Dave Ferguson — That’s what multiplication does. Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — Instead of just having one tree, you get a whole orchard. Dave Ferguson — Or Troy McMahon, who’s one of my best friends.Dave Ferguson — My wife’s getting ready to go to Kansas City to see his wife in just a few hours here.Dave Ferguson — And I mean, again, probably 15 years ago, they took 25 people who moved from Chicago to Kansas City. We blessed them and sent them with some money. They’ve gone to multiple locations.Dave Ferguson — They’ve started four networks there in Kansas City and have probably planted somewhere between 60 and 70 churches.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.Dave Ferguson — I mean, again, if I can say it this way, like I count that.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — I’m just telling people. So if you just want to kind of focus on just your thing, you will never, ever make the kind of impact you can if you invest in multiplication of multiplying other leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — And the other thing, so one, it’s in your best interest because you got this game not to make money. None of us are making any money, right?Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — You got this game because you’re like, this is the best way I can make a difference. And if you’re not doing multiplication, you’re short selling yourself.Dave Ferguson — But let me add one more thing.Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — It’s also how the mission gets accomplished. I mean, if you went into Acts 1:8, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth, and Jesus said, okay, here four more guys.Dave Ferguson — Last time, before I leave, i want to shoot here’s here’s the mission, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth. The only way that that’s going to happen is if there’s a movement, and movement does not happen unless there’s multiplication.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, and there’s, ah you know, one of the things I appreciate about kind of the the you and the broader exponential movement, I think you’ve helped really sharpen this conversation, tighten this up and get clarity for us, which I think is is positive.Rich Birch — And, you know, I bump into a lot of churches that are struggling, a lot of teams that are struggling with getting their their staff to be Ephesians 4 type people, people that are equipping others, that are multiplying others, that they, and there’s an interesting connection between these two, right? Somewhere we thought, oh, you could reach a bunch of people, but not actually equip anyone, which is so strange, right? It’s a strange, and actually there’s only a tiny fraction of churches that are actually multiplying today.Rich Birch — Most are only doing addition. I think this this thinking is one of the ways I think you’ve helped us sharpen this up. Why do you think that math is so stuck and kind of unpack that, help us understand, you know, the kind of the problem we’re trying to attack here.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I think one of the things you’re referencing, so I casually talked about the 16% mission. Let me back up.Dave Ferguson — We want to see 16%, and I know your audience is bigger than the United States, but in the U.S., that’s where our exponential U.S.’s focus is. We want to see 16% of all churches in the U.S. become reproducing or multiplying churches. And that means that they’ve ever planted a church in the last three years.Dave Ferguson — When we first did the homework on this, it’s only about 4%. Now we’ve moved the needle in the last 10 years to 7%. Rich Birch — Amazing.Dave Ferguson — We think in the next five years, we can get to 10%. In the next 10 years, we can get to 16%. And 16% is kind of that tipping point. Where the of that tipping point, you get the right innovators and early adopters. They will convince the whole that this should be normative.Dave Ferguson — And that’s what we’re trying to do. So with that in mind, you’re right. So we’re still only at 7%. And I think the biggest… we’re stuck we’re stuck in an existing paradigm. We’re like fish swimming in water that um we think the best that we can do is grow a church. And I And I think candidly, here’s how I’d frame it up. I think most leaders wake up every morning asking the question, how can can grow my church?Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — How can I grow my church? And that’s a good question, but it’s not a great question. It’s not an Acts 1:8 question.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dave Ferguson — It’s not the kind of question going allow you to maximize your impact, you know, where you’re sleeping in on a Saturday you’ve got a guy in Kansas City and you’ve got a guy in Southern California who’s planting churches. Okay.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — A better question is how do we multiply God’s kingdom? Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — And if and if we could get if we could get leaders to wake up every morning asking that question. Okay, and again, I and versus we, because it’s going to take us working together, not just grow, like addition, but actually multiply, multiplication, and not just my church, but actually God’s kingdom.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s going to make a huge difference in the kingdom. And I think, so when you get stuck in that kind of addition, like how do I grow my church, it impacts decisions you make about money… Rich Birch — Yep. Dave Ferguson — …because you’re going to go, oh, I need to keep that here. So we can you know add another you know and add another wing to our building versus like, oh, guess what? Maybe if I so if i sent that money to you know this church plant, it’s going to result in 70 churches in Kansas City.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s highly leveraged like venture spiritual venture capital is what it is. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — It implements the decisions we make about staff. You know, we want to hold on to our best staff instead of developing them. And then some of them who actually have the capability of starting other churches and even networks, blessing them and sending them out and going like, yeah, I’m a spiritual father and these are my kids. I’m cheering them on. Dave Ferguson — So I think that’s that’s, we’re kind of stuck in this paradigm and it’s not a biblical one, but it is a paradigm that we’re stuck in.Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. And, you know, I’ve similarly been with a lot of leadership teams where we’re in the kind of growth conversation. And I’ll come at that from ah kind of the almost the opposite end, but you end in the same place, which you end up saying, like, this box is not big enough to contain the number of people that your church is hoping to reach.Rich Birch — Like we can’t build a box big enough to do that.Rich Birch — I don’t care how much money, I don’t care how good you are at fundraising, you can’t do that. So we have to multiply. If you really think that we are trying to reach and make an impact in our community, if there’s so many churches say, we’re for whatever city we’re in, we’re for Chicago, we’re for whatever.Rich Birch — If you’re really for that, then you have to be by definition for multiplication and for other churches and for seeing, you know, this thing multiplying out. We can’t, we can’t get them all to come here. That’s never going to work. That’s just, it doesn’t work at all.Dave Ferguson — And here’s thing you can, though, do. I mean, you’re right. If it’s just about their butts in your seats, whatever. But if it’s about you bringing them and equipping them and then sending them out, oh, that’s highly leveraged. And that could be a really good use of a building or facility.Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. That’s good. So, so much of this conversation, you know, I want to tap in your expertise. We’ve got a lot of lot of executive pastors listening in. You know, you have been in the one of the multiple seats you’ve sat in has been the kind of lead pastor seat. And let’s talk to some XPs from your perspective as as a you know a lead pastor around this area.Dave Ferguson — Oh, good. Those are the people actually the stuff done. They’re not just the top. These are the executors.Rich Birch — But let’s let’s think that through. So vision isn’t just about getting up on Sunday and preaching about it. You’ve actually led organizations that have done this stuff. And you know you’ve you’ve cast a compelling vision, but then have seen the organizations actually go out and make this stuff happen. So we think about it from our seat as an executive pastor. What is the executive pastor? Where do we actually come into play in this thing? What’s our piece of the puzzle? How can we help kind of move this thing forward at an operational level? You you named a couple of things, money, staffing. Help us think through that.Dave Ferguson — and And the assumption here is, okay, so the lead pastor is pro-multiplication, and now you have to execute the vision.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — I I think one of the things, grab a hold of how do we create ah a multiplication culture? Because if you can create a multiplication in culture, you will literally become, people in your church will become unconsciously competent.Dave Ferguson — I’m thinking of a real quick story. A friend of mine named Doug. Doug was a guy who was nominally involved at Community. All right. Long story short, only because his wife insisted he joined a small group that Sue and I were leading. Now I didn’t have an apprentice leader in that small group, which is which is not good, okay? That’s how you don’t create a culture.Dave Ferguson — But we went through six weeks and I went up to Doug and I said, I told him, I said, hey… And actually said in front of the whole group because he’s the kind of guy I could do this to. I said, hey, I know this group would like to continue, but we can’t continue unless we have an apprentice leader.Rich Birch — Nice.Dave Ferguson — And I said, Doug, will you be my apprentice leader?Rich Birch — That’s great. Dave Ferguson — He’s kind of like you. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — Big guy with a bald head. Beads his sweat or popping on top of his head. He says, all right, I’ll do it, I’ll do it, I’ll do it. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — So he he agrees to be my apprentice leader. So I start meeting with him because the group was on Wednesdays. I’d meet with him on Tuesdays at Starbucks around 4 o’clock as he’d finish up work. And we’d kind of…And I remember his first question to me was like, hey, so if I’m going to be an apprentice leader, I should read the Bible, I guess, right?Dave Ferguson — I’m like, yeah, you probably should.Rich Birch — Yes, it’s a good starting point.Dave Ferguson — And so I told him how I how I do it. But over the course of the next 14 months or so, um you know, I basically apprenticed him through what we call the the five steps.Dave Ferguson — And here’s here’s the fun part of this story. OK, so Doug didn’t have much of a church background.Dave Ferguson — So he gets to the place where he thinks he’s ready to lead a group. And I think he’s ready, which people ask me a lot. how do you know when a leader is ready? I think it’s really that it’s that simple when they think they’re ready and you think they’re ready, they’re ready. And so I said, okay, why don’t you take over this group? It’ll be easy for me to go start a new group. You take… And he he said, okay. Dave Ferguson — I come back, like two or three weeks later, to Starbucks on Tuesday at 4 o’clock, sitting at the exact same table where we would always sit was Doug and his brand new apprentice, Tim.Rich Birch — Love it.Dave Ferguson — And so Doug was like unconsciously competent. He was like, oh, I thought I thought every church in America did that. I thought that’s how it works. I didn’t know I had a choice.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — And if you create a culture of multiplication, that’s what will happen over and over and over again.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Well, and and yeah, what a vivid picture. And, you know, we’ve got to move our our people and our systems towards, you know, continuing to multiply at every level. When you think about a church that’s stuck and it maybe is is just focusing on addition. They’re really in that, but they they have a desire to want to multiply.Rich Birch — Is your recommendation, or maybe what you’ve seen happen, the churches that have actually made that pivot towards multiplication, is it like a ground up thing? Like we start with, man, we’ve got to get all of our, you know, all of our team leaders get an apprentice, let’s go there. And then we’ll trickle up through the organization, which then leads to the conclusion. Oh, by the way, we’re going to have to, we’re going to multiply because we’ve kind of built this culture.Rich Birch — Or, is it better to go or or maybe there’s advantages to go one way or the other from the kind of the, hey, we’re going to declare this and that’s going to kind of pull us towards multiplication. Do you understand what I’m saying? Ground up or we cast a vision to pull towards it.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. And creating the culture.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. In creating the culture, yeah.Dave Ferguson — If you haven’t, if you, if you don’t currently have that kind of culture, here’s what I would encourage leaders to do. I do think it does start at the top with like the lead pastor and the executive pastor.Dave Ferguson — And I encourage leaders at every level. I said, lead at the smallest level of your organization and lead at the largest level and you train and trust everybody in between.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good.Dave Ferguson — You want, and so for, I mean, all, whatever it was, 30 some years at Community, I always led a small group and I tried to always have an apprentice leader. So you need to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get, okay. And I think there was a moment where you declare, Hey, this is who we are. And you need to decide if you want to buy in or not. You’re firm, but kind about that. Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get all of your staff, plus all the people that you consider as leaders and key influencers, which is probably somewhere around 16 to 20% of your total church. You get them bought into it.Dave Ferguson — Once you get them bought into it, and it’ll probably take you a year and they’re actually doing this stuff. Then you preach a sermon on it. Then you start casting vision on it. Then you declare it for the whole, because what will happen is that, again, kind of back to that innovators and early adopters. When they’re in the lobby and somebody comes them and goes like, hey, what do you think about this idea of apprenticeship? And we’re all going to have apprentices or multiply. They’ll already have been done it. They’ll have done it for a year.Dave Ferguson — And they’ll be like, oh, yeah, I think this is awesome. And that’s exactly what you want.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. And even what you’re doing.Dave Ferguson — I guess I’m questioning if you’re ready to make that shift, I wouldn’t preach a sermon on it first, because what they’re going to do is if you’re preaching a sermon on it and you’re not doing this stuff, what happens is you implicitly and almost accidentally create a culture that says, oh, I don’t actually have to do this stuff because the guy who’s casting the vision only talks about it and doesn’t actually do it. And so you create that culture, which is what we have a lot of.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, I for sure I’ve seen a lot of that in, you know, in the churches I’ve been a part of, even with stuff like ah the fact that you, you know, were leading in a group, you know, I’ve I’ve seen a number, not necessarily the lead pastors I’ve worked for, but in churches where there’s like the lead pastor, they like elevate themselves out of that kind of thing. And they’re like Oh, I don’t need to interact with normal people. And, and that comes out, you know, I’ve, cause I’ve said it all the time to lead pastors. I’m like, even simply like, I would way rather you that just leak out of you that you’re, that you’re apprenticing a leader in a small group.Rich Birch — Then, then we have some big thing on why apprenticing is important because people will catch the the small little things, the little breadcrumbs here and there. They’ll catch that at a more powerful level than the big, let’s put a, let’s get a brand name, stick it on a wall, you know, kind of thing. That’s cool. That’s great.Dave Ferguson — It’ll but end up in your sermons, it’ll end sidebars, hallway conversations. Here’s one of my favorite examples. You know, Nicky Gumbel, right?Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — So Nicky’s the guy who previously was the vicar at Holy Trinity Brompton. He was really the guy who kind of really brought out Alpha… Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …which you might say is, I mean, right there with Billy Graham and the Apostle Paul… Rich Birch — Yeah, Oh, absolutely. 100%. Dave Ferguson — …greatest evangelistic tools that we’ve ever had.Rich Birch — Yes. 100%.Dave Ferguson — One of the things I love about Nicky is I don’t know how exactly how many years, it’s probably been 40 years. Every semester for 40 years, he always leads an Alpha course.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Dave Ferguson — There’s a reason they have such a strong culture and so powerful. Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — And that’s a big mistake. I mean, I think as, you know, we’ve planted church and starts to grow. And we’re trying to figure out, what can I do and what shouldn’t I do? And one of the first things that goes, oh well, I just won’t lead a small group anymore. I won’t lead a missional community anymore. Whatever is that smallest organizing principle is, you want to hold on to that. Train and trust everybody else to do everything in between. Rich Birch — That’s very good.Dave Ferguson — And as you continue to grow and scale, yeah, influence way out there. But but Ii’ll hold on to this too.Rich Birch — Yeah, continuing to shout out Nikki, I just think the world of Alpha… Dave Ferguson — I do too. Rich Birch — …and it’s been so effective for our our church. And I had an opportunity to interact with him right in the teeth of COVID. I was doing an interview with him. And he, we were talking about some stuff and i it really marked, it was one of those like you lean forward and you’re like, okay, that’s interesting.Rich Birch — He was talking about how he’s like, you know, for years, the meal is a big deal for for Alpha and like, you know, hospitality is a big deal for that. And he said, I was always critical of people that did Alpha online. He’s like, I was always critical of people doing it over Zoom and was like, I would say you can’t do it over Zoom. You can’t do it over Zoom.Rich Birch — And he said, obviously people did it over Zoom and I wasn’t stopping them, but I was, I poo-pooed it. Well, then well then COVID came. And he said exactly what you said. I’m still leading alpha courses and our Apha groups. And so I’m in an Alpha group. And what do you know? This is amazing. God works through this. Rich Birch — And so I was really struck by that, that he as a leader would have the humility to say, hey, I was wrong, but I’m enough in the weeds of this thing to understand, okay, what are the actual implications for our ministry? I think that’s a huge lesson for us to pull away.Dave Ferguson — Well, I mean, two things…Rich Birch — And yeah, I think it’s 35 million people they put through that. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — My thought is two things. One, is I remember that podcast. So thank you very much. I remember going, listening to him. And and and excuse me. And it shaped a lot of the ways I even thought about COVID from hearing from him on that.Dave Ferguson — But I think I think this the second thing is, I think what you were kind of replying to, you have to be in the weeds… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …in order to know how the next innovation is going to happen. I mean, if if he wasn’t doing that, he would have kept with his assumption, no, it’s not going to work and maybe made a lot of bad choices.Rich Birch — Right, right. And we would end up in ah yeah and a very tough spot today. In a lot of ways, that that ministry continues to accelerate… Dave Ferguson — Oh, yeah. Rich Birch — …or that movement really continues to accelerate ah you know in these years, which is amazing.Rich Birch — So one of the things let’s talk about, so one of the things I’ve heard you say is that you really build the case that multiplication has to be built on health, not on hustle. And you know there was a previous generation that was really valued like we wanted leaders. We didn’t want leaders that were burnt out, but we wanted them one step back from being burnt out. We wanted them like right there, right at the line. But what, you know, but I know that’s not what you’re advocating for. But it but I think sometimes our teams, our people, our cultures can look at this and say, this feels like one more thing to do.Rich Birch — So what why does this distinction of health, not hustle, how does that factor in when we’re thinking about actually trying to become a multiplying organization when we’re, you know, we’ve got lots of other stuff to carry as we’re thinking about it. Help us understand that.Dave Ferguson — My experience, particularly working with church planters and other leaders, is they aren’t afraid to hustle. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And in fact, that’s our default position, that I that I will I can maybe outwork the next person. And they’re willing to do it for it for a good cause. But even though we are willing to that, it actually gives us the wrong result. Because if we only hustle more, if only work more, you’re not going to make the impact you could, like I’ve already described, if you’re multiplying more. So I am constantly encouraging leaders, don’t work more, multiply more. Don’t work more, multiply more. And that’s how you make the biggest impact. Dave Ferguson — The other part of that, which is really important, I kind of have a conviction. We knew that we need to try to do the Jesus mission the Jesus way.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — We want to do the Jesus mission, the Jesus way. And I think that has to do with, no, I’m going to try to i’m gonna try to be a great dad. I want to try to be a great husband. I want to try to be a good steward of this body that I have. I want to pay attention to what my thought life, I want to pay attention to my anxiety and and and and levels and and am I feeling depressed? I want to make sure I’m okay spiritually.Dave Ferguson — And I think if we’re doing those kinds of things, we’re checking what I call these four gauges, I think will be healthy leaders.Dave Ferguson — And here’s the axiom that I have kind of led by, especially over the last couple decades, is that you will reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yes. Right.Dave Ferguson — So if if if you want to reproduce unhealth, then be unhealthy. But like if you really want, if you want the, if you want the, the guys in your church to be really good dads. You don’t have to be a perfect dad, but just put in the effort and let them know that you’re also putting in the effort.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — If you want to be a you want people to be you know really good spouses, then try to be that yourself. Because you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I really appreciate that you’re you know that you’re pressing on these issues. I think this is a a critical thing you know for us, and particularly as we, you know I’m in a phase of my ministry where looking on to like, okay, how am I handing this stuff off?Rich Birch — What am I doing to try to help the next generation? And man, I would love the next generation to, I think one of the things that particularly Gen Z leaders are attuned to is they seem to be naturally attuned to like, we’re not going to like drive over a cliff for this thing. We want to do this in a healthy manner. Rich Birch — And and you’re not obviously, you know, you’re highly productive. You get a lot done and Exponential is a highly productive organization. You do a lot. But we want to do it—I like that—you were saying, you know, the Jesus mission, in the Jesus way. That’s actually at the heart of your most recent book Multiplier. Rich Birch — You talk, you kind of referenced these four gauges. Can you unpack that a little bit more at a high level? Help us understand what are the four gauges? And what were you hoping with this book? Why, why another book? Why is this one? What are you hoping this accomplishes for churches?Dave Ferguson — I think there’s a lot of great content out there about personal health, emotional health, how to have a rule of life, that kind of stuff. And we and we need to avail ourselves to it. I think there’s also a lot of great stuff and some of it that I’ve helped contribute to around how do you multiply? How do you you know develop leaders? How do you hero making? All that kind of stuff.Dave Ferguson — What I tried to do in this book though is show how those are so interconnected. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Dave Ferguson — That if you really want to do this for a long time, and that’s how you make the biggest impact, it’s only going to come if you’re a healthy leader, because again, you reproduce who you are.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — And so what we do is we kind of, we, we, we talk about the problem and the problem that all of us face, in the first couple of chapters, is what I call drift.Dave Ferguson — And we drift because…maybe frame it this way. I’ve never had a conversation with a young leader who tells me, hey, 15 years from now, here’s my dream: I hope I’m 50 pounds overweight and divorced and compromising my core convictions.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Dave Ferguson — I’ve never had that conversation. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — But we read about it almost every week. And I sometimes share the story. I mean, I was in a small group with some of the most influential pastors, maybe in the world, but definitely in Chicago for about eight or nine years. If I tried to reassemble that group today, half the seats would be empty.Dave Ferguson — And I don’t think it’s, and I think it’s because they, they drifted and they unintentionally ended up someplace they never intended to be.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Rich Birch — Dave Ferguson — They didn’t intend to end up, you know, in a hotel room with a woman that wasn’t plan A, when they planted a church. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — Or to create a toxic culture, which really benefited them more than other people i don’t think that was like the, the goal from the very beginning. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.Dave Ferguson — And I think what happens is we incrementally, we drift a little bit of time until, you know, in a variety of ways, we end up someplace we never intended to be. So one of the things that I do, I’ll I'll just, maybe I’ll show you here too. I know, this is, this is, I’ll just show you. And I don’t, I know we’re not doing anything on video. I don’t think, but this is, this is kind of, this is my journal.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — Oh, that’s one from like December. Wow. That’s old. There we go. There we go. That’s actually yesterday. And so like, I just write these four letters, RPMS in my journal almost every day.Dave Ferguson — And R stands for relational. How are things with Sue, the kids, my friends?Dave Ferguson — P stands for physical. How am I doing stewarding this body? For me, it’s a trip the fitness center or out running on the prairie path. Dave Ferguson — How am I doing mentally, which has to do with kind of stress or anxiety or thought life?Dave Ferguson — And then how am I doing spiritually? What’s going on between me and God? Dave Ferguson — And then so I just make a little gauge here and I kind of just, where am I? Where am I? And then I actually go ahead and give myself, I like to keep score. If we got executive pastors, they’ll like this. You should keep score.Rich Birch — Yeah, they like numbers. Stuff that ends up on spreadsheets. It’s good.Dave Ferguson — So you can see, like, so I gave myself a score for each of those on a scale of 1 to 10, then a composite, which was 5, which was actually down from 5.25 the day before. And I think that’s because, as you can kind of hear, I got a little bit of a cold, so I’m not feeling well.Dave Ferguson — And, but I, I try to do this every day. And I encourage leaders, those four gauges, relational, physical, mental, spiritual. If you’ll just spend four minutes every day…Rich Birch — That’s so good.Dave Ferguson — …reflecting on those four areas prayerfully, how am I doing relationally? How am I doing physically? How am I doing mentally? How doing spiritually? You’re going to drift. We all drift, but here’s the thing. You’re not going to go a whole month or a whole year or a decade and and suddenly wake up, you know, and someone’s dragging you into court and you’re going like, how in the world did I end up here?Rich Birch — Yeah, I think this is…Dave Ferguson — And so… Rich Birch — Yeah, I would just want to… Dave Ferguson — …it’s hopefully it’s a very, very practical tool for here’s how you can do this every day. And and let me throw this in Rich too, because I want to make sure I hit this. And then if you can do it in community… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …that’ll way mitigate how much you lie to yourself.Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — t’s like if a small group or a missional community every week, just checking in or once a month with another group that you’re you’re working with, I think that if you do that, it’s not foolproof, but it’ll be a big, big, big help.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. The human, uh, human propensity for self-delusion is incredible, right? Like our ability to like become, to lie to ourselves, let alone other people is amazing. You know, I, I want to just honor you for, I think, you know, I, obviously I saw it Exponential this year where you’ve been rolling it out. I’ve, I’ve, I haven’t read the entire book yet, but I’ve read a bunch of it. And I really appreciate that at this phase in your, journey, you’re raising this flag, I think, and connecting it so, you know, integrally to the multiplier, the multiplication mission. I think that is so critically important because we, you know, we’ve seen those leaders who make a series of foolish, unwise decisions that ultimately end up in a tragic spot.Rich Birch — And oftentimes it’s like, I don’t know what to say to people. How do you avoid that? And I like that you have, you’ve put together a framework here to help us think that. Now, as you’ve rolled the book out to folks…Dave Ferguson — How old you how old are you, Rich?Rich Birch — 52.Dave Ferguson — 52. Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — Okay. Like, I’m convinced God’s probably got at least another 20 years… Rich Birch — Sure. Dave Ferguson — …you know, and ah and in some ways it’ll probably be your highest impact years.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.Dave Ferguson — But if one of these gauges goes way south and takes you out, like there’s 20 of the best years of difference-making that we don’t get from Rich Birch. And it’s not just Rich Birch. Every one of the people listening to the podcast. I mean, I think there’s a whole bunch of people that God goes like, no, I got 75 years or 80 years of difference making. And let’s do the whole run.Rich Birch — Yeah. No, I appreciate that. That’s why I think it’s, it’s I'm not doing a good way I’m not doing a good job articulating. I think it’s a gift that you’ve given to the church because you’re helping us actually attack this problem in a really super practical, good way that that I can see it making a huge difference.Rich Birch — And I would agree with you. I think what I realized after being however many decades in ministry, there’s like a real cumulative effect here that it’s like, you know, each decade, I thought things were great in my thirties and then I hit my forties and now I’m in my fifties.Rich Birch — I’m like, oh my goodness, there’s and and sometimes people will say, they’ll they’ll ask you know kind of questions like, you know hey, how do you basically, you know how do you do what you do or whatever? And a part of I’m like, well, you just stay in it. Like you just keep doing it, right? And stay in the game and stay plugged in and yeah.Dave Ferguson — And the and the longer your influence continues to grow, I mean, like, in the kindest, humble way, if Rich Birch emails somebody, you respond. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s kind.Dave Ferguson — Because I mean, you’ve put in so much time you mean now that you you’re able to get things done that quicker than you couldn’t before because people know who you are, they’re interested in what you’re doing, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s true.Dave Ferguson — And I think that’s true with all of us. Our influence will just continue to grow if we stay faithful to this.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great. So I want to, I’m going to, we’re going to talk about where you can get the book in a minute, but just before we get there, of the four, this book’s been out now for a while and it’s out in the world. It’s, you know, as an author, I know that’s a very different experience. You go from writing and then it goes out there and then people react to it.Rich Birch — Are there any of those four gauges that you’ve been surprised by the reaction or you’ve noted the reaction? Like, oh, that’s interesting. I’m hearing from people or I’ve seen, you know, maybe it’s a conversation or that sort of thing that any four of those have kind of bubbled up in in discussion.Dave Ferguson — I think the one, I think that’s what surprised me so far in the conversation is how important the physical gauge, how, how underestimated it is and how important it is.Rich Birch — Oh, interesting. Tell me more.Dave Ferguson — I was just, I was just in a conversation this morning with somebody who’s telling me that he’s really been working on these four gauges and for him in the last year’s dropped 40 pounds. And he’s like, it has, it has really shifted my influence, my, my leadership.Dave Ferguson — He said, I just, I feel more confident walking into a room. And I, yeah, I think probably as Christian leaders, we probably downplay that one the most. And I'm I am surprised.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — I’m not saying it’s the most important of the four… Rich Birch — No. Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …but I am surprised how important it is and the feedback I’m getting on it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I can see that. I can see that for sure.Dave Ferguson — Yeah, I mean we’re whole people.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, the, the days I ride that Peloton in the morning, I’m better at, I’m a better husband those days. I’m a better, you know, it’s, it just works out, which is, yeah, that’s really cool.Rich Birch — All right. So we want to, so when I, as I’ve been going through this, what I’ve been struck by is, man, I think this could be a real gift for our team’s to go through together. i think this could be a great tool for our staff teams. Maybe if I’m an executive pastor, it’s like, Hey, what if we went through this with our senior leaders first? And then maybe we roll it out to our teams or something like that. Where can people pick up copies of this book? Where do we want to send them online to get them? I’m assuming Amazon. Is there anywhere else we want to send them?Dave Ferguson — You know what? Let me give you two things that comes to mind. One is if they’re ready to make a commitment, say, hey, I want to be a multiplier. If you go exponential.org/multiplier, exponential.org/multiplier, there’s a place there where you can say, hey, I want to be a multiplier.Dave Ferguson — We’ll explain how you can be involved in meetups and cohorts and resource. We actually have a multiplier digital check-in. So you can actually do this online every day, that kind of stuff. So that’s one place that would be, I think, really fun.Dave Ferguson — But you’re right, um a lot of people are using it as a book to go over with their with their staff or with their teams or even their networks. And if they’re going to get, I think it’s like six or seven or more, maybe it’s a dozen, somewhere in that neighborhood, you’re going to get more than few, go ahead and email me and I’ll tell you you get a bulk discount. And that’s dave@exponential.orgRich Birch — Great.Dave Ferguson — dave@exponential.org – Say, hey, I’m going to do this with my team. How can I get a bulk discount? And my assistant, Sarah or me, will get back to you and let you know how you can do that.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s fantastic. Friends, I don’t say this with every author that comes on, but I really, I would highly endorse, would recommend that you do that. I think this could be the book you should pick up maybe this summer, read it by yourself, read it with a small group of people. I do think this could be, I think it’s a critical resource. I think it’s, I think this is more than just like, hey, it’s another book. You know, I think there’s a real potential here for this to shift the conversation in a really positive way in the broader church. So I would love more people to pick it up. Well, Dave, this has been incredible. I really appreciate you being here today. Any final words as we kind of land today’s episode?Dave Ferguson — I would probably come back to, if I was going leave people with one thought, is just just remember that you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — So good. Appreciate you, Dave. Thanks so much. We want to send people to exponential.org. Is there anywhere else online we want them to go if they want to track with you or with the movement or anything like that?Dave Ferguson — I mean um I’m on most of the socials, so you can follow me there. DaveFerguson.org, DaveFerguson.org, if, you know, for some reason you want me to speak or do something or find other books that I’ve written.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for being here today, sir. Appreciate that.Dave Ferguson — Hey, my pleasure.

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Text: Romans 1:18-20For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 1:17For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 1:16For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 1:13-15For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 1:8-12For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 1:7For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 1:5-6For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 1:2-4For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Romans 1:1For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Matthew 28:1-10For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Matthew 21:1-11For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Nehemiah 10-13For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

The Bible teaches that this world is not all there is. There is a spiritual realm populated by personal spiritual forces, both good and evil. But through his death and resurrection, Jesus defeated the devil so that we can have victory over the forces of darkness.This message was given by Cedric van Duyn, pastor of Anthem Church.

Text: Nehemiah 8-9For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Nehemiah 6-7For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Nehemiah 5For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Nehemiah 4For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Nehemiah 3For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Nehemiah 2For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Nehemiah 1For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Ezra 9-10For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Ezra 7-8For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Ezra 4-6For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at anthemcolumbia.com

Text: Ezra 1-3For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Philippians 1For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Ruth 3For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Ruth 2For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Ruth 1For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Psalm 19For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Matthew 22:35-39For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Matthew 22:36-40For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: John 14:15-27For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Proverbs 4:20-27For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: Psalm 1For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/

Text: 2 Peter 1:1-4For more resources and information from Anthem Church, visit us at https://www.anthemcolumbia.com/