Podcasts about Multiplication

SUMMARY Most of us move through our days on autopilot, heads down, running our own agenda. The struggling dad at church, the neighbor whose marriage is barely holding on, the single mom wrestling groceries into her car — we walk right past. In Part 7 of the Multipliers series, Jeff reads Chapter 29 of the DadAwesome book and shares an archive clip with Danny Silk about the isolation trap, why control is the wrong tool for fathering, and what a home that resembles heaven actually feels like. Key Takeaways God doesn't watch from the bleachers. He jumps into the mess with us, and He often chooses to answer desperate prayers through ordinary people who are willing to notice and respond. You already have what someone needs. Our Italian angel offered three things any of us can give: time, trust, and troubleshooting. Not more resources — just a willingness to make available what's already in your hands. Interruptions are often God appointments. When someone opens up about their pain, that's not small talk. It's a door opening. Isolation is the enemy's trap for men. Alone, you become master and ruler of your own reality, and that's the fast track to deception. Multiplication requires brotherhood. You cannot control your children — so learn to control yourself. When intimidation or the threat of punishment is the most-used tool in your toolbox, you've built a culture in your home that doesn't resemble heaven. A small yes can get multiplied by 100. A bold prayer for $10,000 became more than $1 million raised for the fatherless across 30 events and over 1,000 men. Quotes "God jumps into our mess with us. He's not watching from the bleachers." (05:35) "Every day we walk past people having their own version of lost in Florence." (06:15) "You don't need more to make a big difference. You've already got what someone desperately needs. You just need to be willing to share it." (11:15) "I'm learning to see struggling people as potential God appointments instead of interruptions." (11:30) "As fathers, we teach our children more through our responses to others' needs than through our lectures about compassion." (12:40) "God takes our small yes and multiplies it into something far bigger than we imagined." (16:45) "The trap of the enemy for men in particular is isolation. Because now you become master and ruler of reality, and that is the fast track to deception." (19:20) — Danny Silk "When the most used tool in my toolbox as a parent is some form of intimidation or the threat of punishment, then I have created a culture in my home that does not resemble heaven." (20:45) — Danny Silk "My Father is much more concerned about my heart connection to Him than He is controlling me." (21:40) — Danny Silk "If you don't learn to control yourself, you are out of control." (22:20) — Danny Silk Action Steps: I. Reflection Name your phase. Childish, young adult, young married, young dad, wise dad — where are you actually living right now? Who have you walked past? Think back over the last month. Who could have used a pause in your care? Take inventory. Time, trust, troubleshooting. Skills, margin, network, resources, lived experience. What do you have that someone else might be desperate for? II. Multiplication Where are you isolated? You will not see a multiplication miracle alone. Name the guys in your foxhole, or admit you need to build that crew. Serve with someone. When a dad needs help with a yard project, bring another dad along. Friendship grows shoulder to shoulder. Find the side door. Pick a date and a challenge rather than "let's just sit and talk." A race, a ride, a project — action is often the side door to a man's heart. III. Activation Pray for a God appointment this week. Stay alert for the person who needs time, generosity, care, or counsel. Let your kids watch. Go out of your way to show compassion within sight of your children. Don't hustle on to the next thing. Run the small yes. Is there something God put on your heart that you keep postponing? What if now is the time? Run it as an experiment — what could it hurt?

We begin Episode 24 with one of those hypothetical questions that immediately exposes exactly how much faith you have in the people around you:Someone offers you $50 million cash, tax-free. All you have to do is call someone. If they don't answer, you get the money.Who are you calling?For the Rizz Show crew, the answer becomes obvious very quickly: King Scott.The man apparently treats incoming phone calls like suggestions.Rizz is already mentally spending his $50 million because King Scott never answers. Moon is apparently another safe bet, and the conversation quickly turns into an intervention about why Scott's phone is always on Do Not Disturb—especially with a very pregnant wife at home.Probably time to turn the ringer on, buddy.If not, apparently the rest of The Rizzuto Show is prepared to raise the child. It takes a village, and unfortunately this is the village available.Then it's time for the Rizz Quiz, where contestants get 45 seconds to answer as many supposedly simple questions as possible. One wrong answer immediately stops the clock. We're talking third-to-fifth-grade territory: basic math, colors, geography, animals, planets and other information most adults confidently assume is still stored somewhere inside their brains.That confidence does not survive this comedy show.Janelle starts strong with pink, 30, LEGO and 366 days in a leap year before the phrase “natural satellite” completely derails the operation. The answer was the moon. Instead, we get a curse word and an early exit.Chris comes in ready to work—and apparently ready to work with the loudest calculator ever manufactured. He gets through Harry Potter, pentagons, Florida, multiplication, McDonald's and subtraction while everybody tries to figure out whether he's playing the Rizz Quiz or doing taxes on a Texas Instruments from 1987.Then Craig absolutely cooks.Milk. Spider legs. Mars. Division. Elephants. Inches. Gravity. Multiplication. Hawaii. Addition. Helium.The man puts up 11 correct answers, which in this game basically makes him Ken Jennings.Bill gets one chance to dethrone him.First question: What animal is known as man's best friend?Dog.Second question: What is 60 divided by 6?Zero.And that's it.Craig wins Blues home-opener tickets while Bill presumably begins a long and painful reconciliation with the number 10.Round two begins with Brittany taking on a piano, decades, Antarctica and basic multiplication. Eight times four?36.Nope.The crew also realizes some questions have returned from the previous day, giving Rizz a chance to see whether anybody actually learned anything from Simpleton Trivia. Spoiler: education remains a work in progress.Then Columbia Jeff steps up and cruises through colors, subtraction, human anatomy, triangles, Mario, multiplication and geography.How many nickels make one dollar?50.Suddenly Rizz feels much better about his own previous nickel-related failure. This isn't just trivia anymore. This is Rizz redemption.Another Jeff enters the arena and successfully handles penguins, division and Canada before 18 plus 22 becomes…50?Math claims another victim.Finally Ethan gets the last shot. He works through stop signs, Washington, D.C., division, dolphins and rainbow colors before getting tangled up in a question about the force behind ocean tides.And that's the Rizz Quiz experience in a nutshell: everything seems insultingly easy until the music starts, a timer is running and suddenly you're staring into the abyss wondering whether 18 plus 22 has always been 50.This comedy show proves once again that basic math becomes advanced calculus when someone puts you on the radio.The Rizz Quiz isn't difficult.Your brain is just a coward.Follow The Rizzuto Show → linktr.ee/rizzshow for more from your favorite daily comedy show.Connect with The Rizzuto Show Comedy Podcast online → 1057thepoint.com/RizzShow.Hear The Rizz Show daily on the radio at 105.7 The Point | Hubbard Radio in St. Louis, MO.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

There is a lot of discussion in the missions world on "multiplication vs. maturity" or "movement vs. healthy church." How should we think about these 2 different emphases in the work? Which is more important? Listen in as Jesse shares from Colossions that all missionaries must be furiously committed to both. 

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Todd Wilson, co-founder of Exponential and a leader at Multipliers, where he helps churches and ministry leaders pursue multiplication and greater Kingdom impact. Todd has spent decades studying church planting, disciple-making, and movements, and his latest book, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward, explores the evolution of the American church growth movement and what it may mean for the future. Are churches working harder while reaching fewer people? Have our systems become better at producing activity than disciples? Todd challenges leaders to examine the operating system beneath modern church ministry and consider what needs to change if we want to see true reproduction and multiplication. We have a disciple-making problem. // For years, Todd has championed the goal of seeing more churches reproduce. Research once showed that fewer than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing, and while that number has improved, multiplication remains rare. But Todd believes church planting is ultimately an outcome of a deeper issue: most churches do not have a functional culture of disciple-making. If disciples aren’t reproducing disciples, churches will struggle to reproduce churches. Reproduction has to become generational. // Multiplication begins when reproduction continues beyond the first generation. One disciple makes another disciple, who then makes another, and the process keeps going. The same is true with churches. A church plants a church, which plants another church, which plants another. Once reproduction moves across multiple generations, addition becomes multiplication and the potential for movement begins to emerge. The church growth system has slowly changed. // Todd’s research traces roughly 75 years of church growth history, beginning with missionary Donald McGavran. McGavran originally studied why some churches on the mission field grew while others did not and developed principles aimed at helping missionaries reach more people. Over time, those ideas moved into the American church and blended with seeker-sensitive ministry, the megachurch movement, purpose-driven strategies, multisite, church planting networks, and other innovations. Much good came from these eras, but Todd believes the system gradually shifted toward institutional and programmatic growth. Good intentions can still create the wrong outcomes. // Todd is careful not to blame previous generations of church leaders. Many of the people who shaped modern church ministry were deeply evangelistic and sincerely wanted to reach people. Yet over time, the dominant definition of success increasingly became bigger attendance, larger programs, and expanding organizations. The unintended result is a consumer-driven model that can attract people effectively but struggles to produce disciples who reproduce. The angst leaders feel is real. // Todd hears a growing frustration among pastors: churches are spending more money, employing more staff, and working harder while seeing less fruit. Even churches that appear successful can sense something isn’t right beneath the surface. Todd believes much of that angst comes from trying to produce multiplication through an operating system designed primarily for addition. Naming the problem is an important first step toward changing it. Leaders must model what they want reproduced. // Todd believes transformation has to begin with senior leaders. If disciple-making is going to become the church’s growth engine, lead pastors and elders must personally participate in a simple, reproducible disciple-making process. Rather than merely preaching about discipleship, pastors should be able to name the people they are actively discipling and allow those relationships to shape the way they lead and teach. Keep the process simple and reproducible. // Whatever model a church chooses, Todd believes it must be simple enough for anyone to reproduce. The goal isn’t another sophisticated program but a way of following Jesus that can move naturally from person to person. The same approach should work for a lead pastor, a volunteer, or even a teenager. Simplicity increases the possibility of multiplication. Give the next generation permission to experiment. // Todd isn’t calling churches to abandon everything they’ve inherited. Instead, he encourages leaders to learn from the past, retain what is fruitful, and recognize that the current operating system may be losing effectiveness. Churches should create space for younger leaders to experiment, learn, and discover more reproducible approaches to disciple-making without being forced to preserve every assumption of previous generations. To learn more about Todd Wilson, visit multipliers.org. You can also download a free PDF or audio version of How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward at church-growth.org or pick up a paper copy on Amazon.com. In addition, check out Todd Wilson’s conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, and the interview A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have tuned in today for this reason, friends, lean in. um I want you to be a part of the conversation that we’re having today. The leader that we’ve got on the phone, on the I don’t know why say the phone because we have not been on phones for podcasts in, you know, 10 years, but on the line is really pressing on an issue that I know that a large portion, you know, almost 90 percent of the churches in the country need to be doing what we’re talking about today. And they’re not. And I really want you to lean in and learn from Todd Wilson. Rich Birch — If you do not know Todd Wilson, he has been the founding and co-founding member of a number of faith-based organizations, including Exponential and Multipliers. He has designed a number, and been a part of the launch of a multiple of national church planting networks. He’s currently a team member, or team leader at Multipliers and serves leaders and ministries who are pursuing multiplication, helping them develop vision and strategy ultimately for a 100 X impact. You know that I love that. Rich Birch — Recently, he wrote a book that caught my attention that I want to dive in on and kind of um unpack some of the core lessons for us today. It’s called, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. And it’s really looking at the whole conversation, American church growth movement. Todd, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Todd Wilson — Rich, it’s great to be here with you. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.Rich Birch — Yeah, me too. So why don’t we start with kind of giving us a picture of Multipliers and the work that you’re focused on now, kind of set the context for us.Todd Wilson — Sure. It’s probably good to have the context, you know, at at my core, my own personal calling. I am an entrepreneurial engineer at my core. I love to envision, envisage opportunities, seek strategies and opportunities of the future. And so where I like to do it anywhere, there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact. And that’s what gets me in trouble often is the, wherever there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact.Todd Wilson — When I came out of the marketplace over 25 years ago into full-time ministry, the most natural hundred X place for me, in addition to being in the local church was, was church planting. I was just drawn to church planting. I got to spend almost 20 years, ah you know, leading Exponential and co-founding there.Todd Wilson — And in recent years, really trying to get even more focused really on the 100x impact. I want to spend my next decade as I’m getting older here, you know, what’s it look like for every hour, for every dollar, for every bit of energy, to see 100x return.Todd Wilson — And so the idea of Multipliers, and it’s a small team of us that, you know, we have a definite bias within the kingdom space to the disciple-making as the mission and engine of the church. And what’s it look like to get back to Jesus style disciple making. But then church planting and multiplication, what does it look like to be doing things that that are even capable of reproduction that can lead to multiplication and ultimately movement. So our goal is to just help champion at the personal level through personal calling, at the church level through disciple making and cultures of disciple making that can ultimately produce movements.Todd Wilson — And so we are a champion and advocate for that.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. You and I are are similarly wired. And over the years, you know I’ve heard people talk about, you know, and they always they’ll do like a series at a church on spiritual gifts. And I’ve often wondered because of the kinds of things I’ve been involved in, if, you know, if I have some sort of apostolic gift, just because of the stuff I found myself doing and, you know, launching campuses and all that.Rich Birch — And it’s interesting that gift over the years I’ve heard, which is similar to the kind of work you’ve been doing over the years is the only gift that I’ve ever noticed that preachers, they seem to talk down about it. And they’re like, stop starting things like, you know, they’re like, they always, you know, are like on the negative side of, you know, being the guy who wants to be entrepreneurial and see new things.Rich Birch — And that’s a part of what I admire about you and the good work you’ve done. When you were at Exponential over those, you know, with you that you co-founded, you know, that almost 20 years, you know, they had this, they saw some amazing things happen there under your leadership, where this idea of moving church reproduction from under 5%, really trying to push us towards 16%.Rich Birch — So for people that are unaware of this, I think this is good context to kind of take a step back and talk about why that number, why are we actually, why are you giving decades of your life towards this idea of trying to move towards 16%? What do we mean by that when you you know talk about that? Because I think that’s a good foundational idea for today’s conversation.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think it’s important it to understand, again, context for me. I didn’t grow up a Christian. I never had a dream to be in full-time vocational ministry. I’ve never wanted to be a lead pastor of anything. You know, ministry was the farthest thing from my mind growing up. When you’re asking kids, what do you want do when you grow up? Todd Wilson — So when God brought me into full-time vocational ministry, and I’m going to say kicking and screaming, I wanted to go start a company. I wanted to go make money. I wanted to go change the world. And so coming into full-time vocational ministry, why in the world would I want to see anything except movements happening? Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — We read about movements in the New Testament. Why do I want to be personally satisfied if God’s calling me into a new life of ministry with anything less than seeing movements?Todd Wilson — And so that was my context of stepping in and and leading at Exponential and what was driving us. And your question from 5% to 16%. Well, Houston, we have a problem.Todd Wilson — If movements are multiplication, and multiplication is generational reproduction, and we, at the time we were starting Exponential, there were less than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing. You just got to let that sink in.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — 95% of churches just 25 years ago, 95% of churches in the U.S. are not reproducing. It’s physically impossible, both mathematically and biblically, to see multiplication and ultimately movements if less than 5% of churches are reproducing.Todd Wilson — So the answer to where’s the 5 to 16, for me personally, God’s called me into a new life and a new ministry. I don’t want to be satisfied with just status quo, but the state of the U.S. church is such that we physically can’t see 100x impact in the operating system of how things are working. Todd Wilson — So the 5 to 16 was very simple. Let’s measure where we’re at. And so the 16% sociologists say that if you can get 16% of an audience acting a certain way, behaving a certain way, it will become normative for everyone else. I like to say, if you’re in a room and you start quacking like a duck to talk, if you can get 16% of the people in the audience quacking like a duck, then everybody’s going to communicate by quacking like a duck.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And so it just became a conviction. Let’s move the needle from less than 5% to 16%. And then the language we would use is, at 16%, healthy church reproduction would become such a normative thing that we would see multiplication happening.Todd Wilson — Now, the little bit of an elephant in the room before we move on, church planting is just the outcome. So that 5% number, it’s an outcome of the system and what’s happening.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The more ornery number is that the national studies that we did on what percentage of U.S. churches have a disciple-making culture. That’s also less than 5%.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So 95% of churches don’t have a functional mission of disciple-making, and that’s their normative growth engine through disciple-making. So in reality, we have a disciple-making problem, not a church-planting problem. And so those two became very tied together, as as will become evident as we have this interview.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. and And just can you define generational reproduction for folks that are listening in? When you when you when you say that, like, hey, we’re trying to move churches towards generational reproduction, kind of just unpack that a little bit more.Todd Wilson — Yeah, let’s let’s start at the personal level of disciple-making. If one person makes a disciple of another person, you’ve got one generation. If that person goes on to make another disciple two generations, that person makes a disciple three generations. We see that biblically. We see that in the leadership pipeline with Paul, that you know we need to see disciples who make disciples who make disciples.Todd Wilson — Once you get to the third or fourth generation of something reproducing itself, if you drew that on paper, one becomes two, two becomes four, four becomes eight, eight becomes 16. That is an exponential or a multiplication curve. So all you have to do to go from addition to multiplication is have healthy reproduction broad and wide multiple generations into the future.Todd Wilson — Now we just take that to the church level, a church that plants a church that plants a church that plants a church broad and wide.Todd Wilson — Now you’ve gone from one church to 16 churches. And now look at the collective attendance of those 16 churches. That’s what you call healthy growth. That’s what you call multiplication when you keep reproducing it over and over.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And there’s actually been progress against this. This is one of the things that I’ve loved as a person just sitting on the outside looking in as you and the team, you know, Dave and the broader Exponential community have really been hammering away at this. You know, we’re not at 16% yet, but we’re seeing progress, which is which is amazing.Todd Wilson — Right. It’s in the studies that we did, and it’s been repeated a couple of times, the needle has moved to at least 7%. That may not sound like a lot, but if you go take the number of churches we’re talking about…Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — …and that needle moving from less than 5% to 7%. And we’re not taking credit for all that at Exponential. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — We’re getting to ride a wave that really started around 2000. Prior to 2000, denominations planted churches, not really churches or networks. We saw the birth of networks around 2000 in the U.S. It’s hard for people to realize, but like in the church planting world, groups like City to City and GlocalNet and Acts 29 and ARC and Church Multiplication Network and Stadia and New Thing Network, none of them existed.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — Literally in a five-year time period, we saw the birth of all these church planting networks, and that happened to coincide with that we saw that need to start Exponential to serve those networks.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So We we were a little bit the right group at the right place, advocating for the right thing.Todd Wilson — And I do think that generally the the wonderful thing is that as that needle is starting to move and the visibility is getting more and more, the next generation wants it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, I would agree.Todd Wilson — They want the scorecard of that. So I feel very optimistic that we’re still a ways away from 16%, but the needle is moving in the right direction.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would echo that too. I think there is, um you know, one of the couple years ago, I had one of those ages in my life flip over with zero on the end that you kind of notice and you reflect back on life a little bit. And I would say one of the things I’ve noticed over, you know, almost 30 years of ministry is this issue is has become more normative. Like it’s it’s a part of the conversation. It’s not that everyone’s doing it, but it’s in the dialogue, which I think is is wonderful.Rich Birch — Well, I, so you know, there’s, you interact with a lot of church leaders across the country. You interact with a lot of people, you have a pulse on a lot of, you know, what’s going on. And there’s a growing sense, you have flagged that there’s a growing sense among leaders that there’s just something wrong. It’s like, you know, there’s like a stink in the bottom of our, our, garbage that’s like, oh it’s a little bit stinky. It’s not like overwhelming, but we can’t put our finger on exactly what that is. Rich Birch — They can’t necessarily name it, but we feel it. We kind of see that there’s maybe something in the way we’re doing what we’re doing that isn’t working. What are you hearing as you sit across the table from church leaders in across the country, you know, around all of these things that we’re talking about?Todd Wilson — Let me describe it a couple of different ways. I think the the word I would put on it is an angst. I think if you look at the definition of an angst, there’s a there’s a growing and an underlying angst. um I’m going to say, if I’m descriptive of the angst, that might not be the way people would exactly say it but it’s how I translate what I’m hearing.Todd Wilson — We are working a lot harder to reach less people and we don’t like the cultural Christian product we’re getting. We’re working a lot harder. We’re spending more money to reach fewer people. And we’re just having this angst that the product we’re producing is a little bit too much consumer cultural Christian as we’re working harder and spending more money. And that leaves somebody full time, know, if I mean, if you’re a full time vocational pastor, there’s an angst that sits in the middle of that dynamic going on. Todd Wilson — My mentor and friend, Robert Lewis, who led Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock for years, Robert’s handed off the leadership back in 2005. Robert describes it this way. He did the foreword on my recent book, and when he read and reviewed the book, he said, Todd, oh my goodness, this is first and foremost a walk down history lane. It’s like going back and looking at history. Todd Wilson — But he said, here’s the thing. I had this angst in 2005. Everything was up and to the right. We were growing. We were doing new campuses. We had started a church planting. Like we’re doing all of the stuff. People are turning to us. They’re looking at what we’re doing. We had started a leadership conference. And I just had this angst that something wasn’t right.Todd Wilson — And he said, I couldn’t name it. He said, I needed a therapist. But where does a megachurch pastor who’s having nothing but success with up and to the right, who’s feeling angst about the system, where do you go for therapy in that? He’s like, I didn’t know whether to feel like I was being ungrateful or what.Todd Wilson — And his words were, as you’ve traced the 75 years of the church growth movement and its evolution into a consumer-driven operating system, you have named my angst. I wish I would have had this book in 2005 to name my angst because half the battle is getting our hands around understanding why we’re feeling the way we do.Rich Birch — Yeah, I was talking to denominational leader within the last year to kind of add a bit more flavor even to that angst, who was saying, and this is a fantastic denomination, you know, Jesus loving, you know, fantastic group of people um and have, you know, very similar what you’re saying, like lots of good things going on.Rich Birch — And this was one of those like, After dinner conversations, you know, long ah a long ways away from a bunch of leaders, we were just chatting on the sideline. And he said, you know, the interesting thing, when you look at our tribe, his movement, he rattled off all their stats. We have a certain number of churches. We have a certain number of pastors. We have a certain number of, you know, baptisms every year. It rattles all that off.Rich Birch — And he said, you know, if you were to look at where we were 20 years ago, the number of churches is the same, the number of, and rattled off all these stats that are the same. Like we’re baptizing the same number of people, the attendance is the same, the the like all these things. He said, the only thing that’s gone up in the last 20 years is we’ve doubled our staff head count. There’s twice as many staff today as there was. And when I read, heard about your book and you talk about this angst, I was like, ooh, that’s exactly what he was describing. He’s like, wait a second. what’s happening here. And him as a denominational leader, he had the same read, hey, there’s something wrong with the way we set this thing up. Rich Birch — So your book, let’s actually dive into a little bit. It starts really at 70 year arc from Donald McGavron from 1955, all the way to today. And so for a leader who’s never really stepped back and thought about the history of like, what, how did we get here? It’s the name of your book. Why does knowing what got us to where we are today, this kind of consumer operating system that you describe, why does, how does understanding that help us as we think about the future?Todd Wilson — It’s a really good question. And I’m not sure, honestly, that I when I, when I set out to write this book, that, that that was even driving me to begin with, but very quickly that became the, I realized that’s why I need to write this book.Todd Wilson — So let, let me explain. And I need to give you a little bit of background to explain, because it’s an important question.Rich Birch — Yep, yep, for sure.Todd Wilson — So when I think about the moment that, that I realized we had a problem. Like that that, okay, we’re on this trajectory, things are moving the right direction to the 16%, and I’m back in the leadership of Exponential now. And I’m realizing, oh my goodness, we really do have a problem. And here’s here was what that looked like. Todd Wilson — I believed we had started learning communities and we had very vibrant learning communities And our learning communities got started because we felt like we need to shift the paradigm of people’s measure of success in the scorecard of church. It was very much about we need to shift paradigm. Alan Hirsch was involved with this on how do we shift from just growing large things to growing decentralized things that saturate. And it was very much about scorecard.Todd Wilson — And if you think about it, we’re wanting to move the needle from 5% to 16%. That’s a scorecard thing. So our initiating event was scorecard. But as we got into these learning communities, which in my opinion were the best things we were doing at Exponential. I mean, they were six to eight month learning journeys and we would rock people’s paradigm.Todd Wilson — We really would. People would go through it and be like, Oh my goodness, I got to have a different view of success in the church.Rich Birch — Right. yeahTodd Wilson — And guess what? They’d go home and Sunday’s coming. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — There’s, services to run, there’s people to pastor, there’s things to do. And the aha moment for me came, Rich, when I realized the the whole definition of insanity, that if you just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome, but that’s insanity. And here I am trying to lead a national organization to see a change in scorecard to move the needle to 16%.Todd Wilson — And I remember the day that I realized we’re not going to get there with the operating system we have in place in church right now. This operating system is not capable of getting us to the 16% number.Todd Wilson — That was a personal crisis. I’m leading an organization that’s up and to the right that the needle is moving. But as a futurist, I’m realizing we’re not going to get where we need to be with the operating system in the church. So the the operating system part was what drove me to start writing this book. I’ll let you ask a question there, and then we’ll circle back to the how does it relate to understanding how we got here, though.Rich Birch — Yeah, so ah just to underline what you’re saying there, um you know in in other conversations, I’ve heard leaders say, you know it’s like, um you know what you know what you reach people with is what you end up keeping them with. And so if what I hear you saying, just putting, I think, other language around it, but correct me, is kind of a consumer-oriented or a consumer cultural operating system that we’ve we’ve used as a church… Todd Wilson — Right.Rich Birch — …you know, obviously by definition, if you ah use a um consumption-based model, that doesn’t, leave you it’s very difficult to turn around and say, okay, now become a multiplier. You know, we got you here as a consumer. Okay, now how do we make you a multiplier? Is that the core pain?Todd Wilson — It is. And Rich, you’re painting the picture of why looking back to understand how we got here is important. If it’s true, that are ah If it’s true, and I want to suggest people ought to go look at it for themselves, that the underlying operating system that has evolved over the last 75 years, it’s not where it started with Donald McGavern in 1955. And there was never bad intentions by any of the good people through the 70 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Todd Wilson — We have evolved from what was originally one thing. into a consumer model that is way more focused on success is growing big, success is making converts, not necessarily disciples. And we we can diagnose that if there’s a problem today, and I suggest there is a problem today, then how we got here and understanding how over 70 years, what was intended to be one thing, gradually (like the frog getting boiled in cold water) turned into something else.Todd Wilson — We’ve got to go through the the, if we really want to change the operating system, and I’ve seen how hard it is, guys can have the paradigm shift. We need to change. Then they go back home into the operating system that they’re operating in. And it is really, really hard to just throw off one operating system and embrace another oneTodd Wilson — And I wouldn’t even encourage people to do that. Don’t go home and just change your operating system overnight. But if you do want to make thoughtful, progressive change, the best way to do it is to start by going back and learn the lesson of how did we get where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — How did things get off track to where to where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — And that’s what ended you know, I started out the book really to go after understanding the operating system itself. And very quickly came to the conclusion, oh, we I’m not sure how we’re going to move to a new operating system if people don’t go through the hard work of looking back and understanding how well-intentioned people over time have delivered for us what we have today in a flawed system.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, I know, again, from my own personal experience, not to bring this back to me, but to my own personal experience, again, it’s been interesting to see similar patterns. You know, every couple years, there’s like some new idea that comes up in the church. And oftentimes I’m like, yeah, this is just like of rehash of a thing I saw 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago.Rich Birch — It’s like, oh, this is is brand new. It’s like, ah, it’s echoes of things we’ve seen in the past. So why don’t we just kind of give people a flyover or a walkover of the kind of eras that you kind of define as you went through the book, just to give people a high level. Rich Birch — Ultimately friends, you know, I’m encouraging you to to do two things out of today. One is to pick up, I think this could be a great book for you and your team to go through. You and your leadership team, buy copies of this, read it. I think it could be an interesting book for you or, and go and listen to Todd’s interview with Carey as well. Carey just takes longer in his podcast and has more time. So there’s going to be, there’s lots packed into that as well. Rich Birch — But why don’t you kind of give us a flyover of the eras? And then maybe when you think about each one of those, something that was like, really positive that came from that area something like hey there’s something good there or maybe there’s something there that we’ve got to be cautious about as we think about the future.Todd Wilson — Yeah. And just to be clear, Rich, you know this, ah I’m a local church guy. My calling is a local church. I’m still on staff at a local church. I love the local church. So this part of the, difficulty for me in spending two years and over a hundred hours of interviews and putting this timeline of history together is I love the church.Todd Wilson — And I I, don’t know that I’d be sitting here talking to you if it weren’t for several of these eras I’m getting ready to name to you. So you’ve got really, I think a common thread through across these areas as we jump into them is typically apostolic, evangelistically driven leaders who really want to reach people. Hell is real. Lost people are going there. We got to reach them. And I think that’s the driving factor across all these eras is well-intentioned people…Todd Wilson — And if I can start with the end point, I think we’ve sort of co-opted the more holistic disciple-making growth engine that’s capable of generational disciple-making with strategies for institutional programmatic growth that are not capable of reproduction. They’re very good at growing large things and reaching lots of people, but not necessarily making, you know, through relational disciple making, disciples who make disciples who plant churches that plant churches.Todd Wilson — So here’s how I would do the flyover. When I got started writing this history, I thought I was doing one chapter of this history in another book. Rich Birch — I love it.Todd Wilson — And one chapter turned into two chapters and three chapters. And eventually my editor said, Todd, you just need to do a full book.Rich Birch — Well, that’s a book.Todd Wilson — And it ends up turning into the longest book I’ve written because of the 75 year history. And ah Rich, seriously, don’t, people don’t need to feel bad if they don’t know all the history. I, I’m like a where’s Waldo through a lot of this history. I’ve had a seat at the table for a lot of the stuff through these eras.Todd Wilson — Until writing this book, I did not know how all the dots connected across these eras. And then it became there were so many, oh, oh, oh. So here’s here’s the shot I’ll give to you. Ididn’t really I knew I had heard of Donald McGavern. I knew he was considered the father of the modern church growth movement. I’ve never, prior to writing this book, read about him, gone off and studied him. Gary McIntosh is his by is Donald McGavern’s biographer. So I spent a lot of time with Gary. He pointed me in the right directions.Todd Wilson — And here’s what I learned. Donald McGavern, born in the late 1800s, international missionary in India. um His father and mother were missionaries in India. He came from the mission field and his context was the international mission field. Todd Wilson — Now, get this as the starting point in 1955. He’s an international missionary. He has planted 15 churches himself in his career, none of which ever grew to more than 100 people. So you got to let that sink in. The father of the modern church growth movement planted 15 churches, none of which grew to more than 100. And yet he’s the father of what we consider now the modern church growth movement.Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.Todd Wilson — So the kind the context was, he became fascinated after reading a research report on why some churches in provinces in India were growing and others weren’t. Sometimes churches in the same village that were growing and just down the street, others weren’t.Todd Wilson — So he kind of took a scientific approach, the study of church growth. Like let’s study this like it’s a science, like what’s causing some churches to grow. And he he had very clear conclusions out of that, but you know, a handful of conclusions of what’s causing that.Todd Wilson — And so ultimately, when he came off the mission field by 1960, 61, he started the Church Growth Institute, not for U.S. pastors, but for international missionaries who were on furlough to come home and learn about church growth principles that they could take back to the international mission field. He had no interest in U.S. pastors. Todd Wilson — So for multiple years in the 60s, he was doing that. And when Fuller wanted to start their International School of World Missions, one of their best faculty member ratings was Donald McGavern. So they invited him to come become the founding dean of the the Fuller School of World Missions.Todd Wilson — But he only agreed to do it if he could bring the Church Growth Institute with him. So by 1970, you’ve got that up and running. He’s built his team. He invited a guy called C. Peter Wagner off the mission field to come be on his faculty staff. And in 1970, 71, Peter Wagner convinced Donald McGavern that they ought to run one class for U.S. pastors on church growth.Todd Wilson — And the rest is history. That one class, it just turned into, Imean, people were very interested in it. Denominations became interested. And literally within a couple of years, you’ve got this up and to the right people latching on to church growth science.Todd Wilson — And that starts the process, you know. Even from the beginning, you start to see a little bit of co-opting away from McGavern’s things. Not fast, but a little bit. Todd Wilson — So right on the heels of that, in the 70s then, you’ve got this young kid, ah Bill Hybels… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — …who’s running you know going to go into business and he’s running a street ministry with youth. He’s being mentored by Robert Shuler.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — And Shuler’s got the possibility thinking, think outside the box, very apostolic. Turns out Shuler not only mentors Hybels, but there’s some mentoring of Rick Warren. And so you’ve got the birth of the seeker-sensitive era then.Todd Wilson — You know, if the first era was the McGavern-Roots era, now we’ve got the seeker-sensitive era. And, you know, that can be a positive or a negative stigma. For me, in 1976, I’m in middle school going into high school, not a Christian, live down the street from this movie theater called the Willow Creek Movie Theater. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — And my mom drags us kicking and screaming into the Willow Creek Movie Theater. We were the avatar family for the Seeker Sensitive family movement.Rich Birch — Right. Movement.Todd Wilson — From Seeker Sensitive, you get out of that the what Peter Drucker and Bob Buford would call the large church phenomena and the birth of Leadership Network then with the large church phenomena, which became the megachurch phenomena.Todd Wilson — You’ve got Rick Warren and his masterful work with the purpose-driven church. Rick’s able to put handles on this church growth part, but Rick was a disciple of Donald McGavern, so he’s got the McGavern roots. Todd Wilson — You’ve got Hybels with the Shuler roots. And in that 80 into the 90s with the birth of the Global Leadership Summit and the other, you’ve you’ve got this very influential large church phenomena, purpose-driven, being shaped by, you know, in large part, the combination of Leadership Network, Hybels, Rick Warren… And that brings us up to you know about 2000. Todd Wilson — And just as a flyover, I would then call the era of the externally focused church. You’ve got the rapid fire birth of church planting networks. You’ve got multi-site. People don’t realize prior to 2000, there’s less than 50 multi-site churches.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — Leadership Network engages it in 2000. And from 2000 to 2010 you see an up, I mean, radically up and to the right.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The externally focused church, same thing. Rick Russo has book right in that time period. The missional guys, right in that time period. So the common theme between these church planning networks, the missional guys, the externally focused guys, the multi-site, is we’re now looking outside of ourselves.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — But in large part, we’re still looking outside of ourselves as growth strategies for our things. If you really go look under the hood of a lot of those.Todd Wilson — And then I would say coming out of the externally or outwardly focused era, 2015 to 2025, I just have no other name than the disruption era. As I was doing the research on this book, um I had to stop at like 12 major disruptions that happened in that time period with COVID right in the middle. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so that’s the…Rich Birch — Political upheaval. There’s a bunch in there in that same, you know, yeah, that there’s been a schism.Todd Wilson — You’ve got deconstruction of faith.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You’ve got cynicism. You’ve got platformed individualism with the birth of social media. Now anybody can be their own, you know, playlist influencer. There’s just so many disruptive factors in there.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Now you look at all those disruptive factors with the evolution of what’s happening in the church and the church operating system. And it leaves us on a very shaky foundation at that point that, you know It kind of brings us up to where we are now, and you can either be a pessimist at that or an optimist. And I choose the optimist path that we’re poised for a new day and a new operating system is my prayer.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And friends, as you can see, you just got a real thin slice of, you know, just all the various phases that you do such a great job unpacking for us to help us really understand how we we got here. It was It was wild, it’s wild thinking about a lot of that because I remember, you know, various phases of those over the last particularly 25 years, you know, seeing that up close and seeing, you know, kind of the impact that has had and then wondering about the future and where we go from here. Rich Birch — So thinking about the future and, you know, obviously you’ve, um you know, you’ve you’re making a clear clarion call around, hey, we’ve got to think differently than the consumer driven operating system. We’ve got to we’ve got to come up with something different. After all of that, um and we’ve kind of covered this already, but I’d love to make sure we kind of hone on this, have this resonate with people that are listening in. Why is it so difficult for that system, for the consumer-driven operating system to to really ultimately produce healthy reproduction and multiplication and in churches? What’s structurally ah broken about it? And what what would be some first steps we should be thinking about change to the future as we think about, okay, where we go from here? Todd Wilson — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do we, you know, build on the positive stuff, but also look for something different as we look to the future? Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think we don’t have to make it complex, Rich, if we just keep trying to come back to simplicity for a minute. Like the system that has evolved has actually become pretty complex when you think about it. I would say if we could just focus on, I’m not even going to say changing overnight, but if if I’m a lead pastor, if I’m on staff at a church, I’m really focused on disciple-making as the core mission and growth engine of the church. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Like what is it, most churches are going to say our mission is disciple making or it’s going to be part of it. They’re going to say we have a culture of disciple making, but it is not what the data shows. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — You know, again, 95% of churches do not have a culture of disciple-making. They have a culture of program activity. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so I’m not an advocate of changing everything overnight, but if you want to shift from a culture of program activity to a true culture of disciple-making‚ it has to start with the lead minister having a simple, reproducible, in-practice disciple-making approach that is being modeled for the… I don’t mean discipling the staff. I mean there’s people the lead pastor are personally discipling, modeling that simple, reproducible process. Todd Wilson — Where we’re starting to see traction and where I think the breakthroughs are going to come in getting us to the new operating system of the future, it is going to start, and it’s it’s happening right now, with pastors who say, you know, if I’m really honest, I’ve been preaching the last 52 weeks. I’ve been leading meetings. I’ve been doing, I’ve been doing, I’ve done, but I’m not really personally making disciples. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And I think it’s going to start with the lead pastor, the elders, senior people saying, If we could only have one metric of success in the next 12 months, it’s not growth, it’s not the activities we do, it’s not the new building. If we only have one measure of success, it’s how many disciples have I personally, relationally been involved in? me Not how many have I preached to, not how many outreach events have we done where we’ve got, but what have I personally done on the disciple-making front?Todd Wilson — And I don’t want to make it more complicated than that. That’s what we’re missing right now.Rich Birch — That’s good. No, that’s really good. Yeah, that’s good. I love the practical takeaway of, um yeah, it’s like, who are the three people in your life that you’re actually discipling? Let’s start there. Rich Birch — So this is kind of a sidebar to it.Todd Wilson — Can I just look real quick?Rich Birch — Yes. Yep. Push back. Yep.Todd Wilson — So David Putman, who’s part of what we do at Multipliers, David’s longtime kingdom guy.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You should have him on as an interview here. David is completely focused on what he calls the 5-3-2 right now. Five simple reproducible principles, three rhythms, and and two relationships. So it’s a triad of three people that just keeps reproducing.Todd Wilson — Anybody can do it. A ninth grader can do it. A lead pastor can do it. I’m watching this model take different groups by storm right now. And whether you embrace the 5-3-2 or some other model like it, the key is going to be having a simple, reproducible process that works for the lead pastor and anyone else in the church. Same model.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah we had David on back in 2020 and I’m like we got to get him back on uh the podcast. Rich Birch — So sidebar issue, so this is not something we’d you know kicked around ahead of time but it’s kind of adjacent to this. So I am not a I'm not a teaching pastor. Similar to you. I’m not, i never saw myself as a lead pastor. I’ve always been in the like, Hey, my job’s to be in the second chair, cheering for other lead pastors. I’ve worked for um really over my career as an XP three incredible communicator lead pastors who it would appear like, and it is, they, all three of them, God gifted them with this ability to speak and gather crowds. Like that was like core. And, and I, I’ve spent a lot of time like listening to them and watching them. And part of it just appears to be like, it’s definitely a gifting that’s going on there.Rich Birch — And I, over time, ah questions like the following would come up that I would I'd struggle with, where it’s like, it would appear like this person can gather a lot of people, and we can build more chairs in front of that person and people will hear that person and they’ll they’ll take steps towards Jesus. Rich Birch — And I understand that that’s not, or that’s not a full picture of discipleship. That’s one piece of the discipleship puzzle, but it’s not… And the the kind of organizational pressure is, okay, let’s keep figuring out how to build more seats in front of this person and and their gift. How do we get them to leverage their gift well? Rich Birch — And to be honest, I’ve been in conversations where I’ve been the voice of like, I want to line 100,000 people up in front of this person to hear this person speak because I think the way they talk about Jesus is different than what I’ve heard other people say and it it’ll make a difference. Rich Birch — That is, I think, at the center of this tension that there’s some there seems to be something about the gift of teaching that it’s not, I don’t know whether it’s not evenly distributed, or there’s like a brokenness in humanity and we only want to listen to certain kinds of people. I don’t know whether it’s one of those two things. So all I’ve done is describe a problem and I’m going to say, comment on it, Todd.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think you’re right on the mark. I think I want to affirm that, you know, I mean, everybody has their definitions. I believe the preaching role is, and and the teaching and reaching is a piece of the discipleship equation.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — I think if I’m defining the problem statement, We have made it the biggest piece… Rich Birch — Sure. Todd Wilson — …instead of a piece or a playing a role in it. So I think the issue is that how big we’ve made it. Like you, I was an executive pastor for years. And when I look back on that time, my role was not about holistic relational disciple making that could be the growth engine of the church. and it It was how do we get as many people in seats in the auditorium on Sunday? We need great marketing. We need great outreach.Todd Wilson — And again, I think all of those play a role in the disciple-making process ultimately. But let’s just be honest, that’s not disciple-making itself. It plays a role in the disciple-making process.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So the elephant in the room here is, how do we scale disciple-making? If I if I could be If I could be the czar of this, I’m not, but if I could be, I want the genius at the end. I want the unique gifts that are represented across the whole mosaic and the church, starting with that dynamic creature that can attract the crowd. I want it. Todd Wilson — But I also want those senior leaders of the organization I really want to be focused on what is our growth engine and what is our holistic disciple-making process. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And the number one thing I want from those senior leaders is not their unique gift. I want their modeling, their personal modeling of the simple, reproducible, disciple-making growth engine that anybody in the church can do. Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — I mean, that that preaching gift you’re talking about, that that one lead pastor can do, how many other people in the church can do that?Rich Birch — Right. Not many. Yep.Todd Wilson — So there’s their paradigm. So we need them doing it.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — But I would argue what we need them doing even more than that inspiration is modeling the simple reproducible disciple making thing that people know that’s how we’re going to win here.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I’ve that lines up, I’ve said it at probably, well, not a thousand times, but hundreds of times with lead pastors over the years that in the context of this conversation, I would rather them weave in the discussion about their discipleship relationships as like just a normative part of conversation rather than the, we’re doing six weeks on discipleship and how to become disciple making. I’m like, if you just pepper that stuff in week in, week out, it just is a normative part of the conversation that changes culture. Rich Birch — The kind of like, we’re going to make it a program. We’re going to brand it. We’ve got a great name on it. And my experience has been, it’s it’s a little bit like nailing jello to the wall. There’s there’s actually some of that containing of what we’re talking about actually kills the exact thing that we’re trying to do. And so, man, I think there’s a real tension there. And how do we help those people? Rich Birch — Because it’s not like we want them to do a worse job. It’s not like, hey, if you could stop talking in a way that attracts a crowd, that’s not the answer. But we’ve got to, like you say, how do we move them into those personal relationships? That’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation…Todd Wilson — My question would be, Rich, what what would happen…Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — …if an average lead pastor went on a one-year journey to to of disciple-making themselves? Call it a triad, call it four, five. They’re always, over the next year, going to be in a disciple-making small micro group… Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Wilson — …and all of their preaching is going to be informed.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — That’s their laboratory of learning.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s their paradigm. Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — That’s their paradigm. And now they’re bringing it to life, not just as periodic examples, but, you know, my whole frame of reference of my library is what comes out of that experience. Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — And our problem right now is that’s just lack. It isn’t that it’s inserted a little bit. It’s just lacking.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, this has been great. what ah What a great conversation. And as you can tell, friends, there’s a lot we could talk about there. And a lot you know just there’s a rich conversation that could be had around this. Rich Birch — Let’s let’s pivot and kind of talk a little bit about the book specifically. i want to make sure people pick up copies of this. Again, the name of it is How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. People can get this on Amazon. Are there other places that you would send people if they want to pick up copies of this?Todd Wilson — Yeah. So if they go to church-growth.org, church-growth.org, that’s the book’s homepage. You can actually get the free PDF there. You can get the free audio version there. There’s a full wiki there that people can contribute to. What you kind of mentioned it in passing, but I’ll highlight, it is impossible to read this book and not see yourself in it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.Todd Wilson — Anyone who’s been a Christian for a while, they, the editor of the book said the power of this is going to be, she said, I can tell you the page in the book that I entered the story. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Todd Wilson — So you’ve got the free PDF, the free audio, the wiki, and then for people that just want the paper versions, you can get it on Amazon.Rich Birch — That’s great. And we’ll link to that friends so that you can, you know, find that quickly in the show notes and, and friends, I would encourage you again, to me, I think this could be a great resource to do with your leadership team, as I mentioned earlier. It would be a great kind of conversation starter and really context setter for us to think through these issues as we think about the future. Rich Birch — So kind of as we, as we come to close up today’s conversation, any final words as we wrap up today?Todd Wilson — Rich, I just appreciate the work you’re doing. I want to be an encouragement to pastors. Don’t let this book be, it’s not a deconstruction book. It’s not, oh my goodness, the church has fallen apart.Rich Birch — No, yeah.Todd Wilson — We need to keep plugging away doing what we’re doing, but we also have to have an eye on the future that this operating system that has evolved, everything has a beginning and an end. And this operating system, I believe, is in its final days. I think we’re we’re seeing you know less and less effectiveness with it. And I think we just need to be in a posture of giving permission to the next generations to do some trial and error and experimentation and not be locked into the paradigm of the of the past inheriting previous things.Rich Birch — No, fantastic, Todd. I appreciate you being here. And I would echo that, you know, you’re you’re the kind of leader that’s in our corner trying to help us get better. And so I appreciate the voice that you’ve had for for decades. And so I really appreciate that. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you, get connected, follow along with Multipliers where do we want to send them online?Todd Wilson — Multipliers.org can get me to all the different ways from email to phone to social media. So multipliers.org.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Todd. Appreciate you being here, sir.Todd Wilson — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate it.

Healthy leaders don't just preserve what they've built. They multiply it.In this episode of the Next Level Leaders Podcast, Dr. Joseph Walker challenges leaders to move beyond simply maintaining what exists and embrace a mindset of multiplication. Discover why lasting leadership is measured not by what you hold onto, but by what you develop, empower, and leave behind.If you're ready to expand your influence, strengthen your team, and build a legacy that outlives your leadership, this conversation will give you practical insight and fresh perspective to help you lead at the next level.This episode will challenge you to rethink the way you develop people, build systems, and prepare your organization for lasting impact.

"Beyond the Sermon" is our Wednesday podcast episode, where we dive deeper into Sunday's sermon, answer questions from our congregation and listeners, and discover how we can make life application with what Scripture says. If you have questions about Sunday's sermon, you can submit them by going to immanuelbaptist.com/beyondthesermon or by clicking "Podcast Questions" under the Media section of our app.

Jeff Pratt - "Creating a Culture of Multiplication" | This message was from our 10:00 Service on August 9, 2026. To dive deeper into today's sermon, check out our "Beyond the Sermon" episode released every Wednesday.

If you’ve ever felt like conflict in the church only leads to division, this message will show you how God can use what divides us to multiply His mission.

Scott Sullivan and Robbie Norman conducted a podcast interview discussing intentional multiplication in discipleship, focusing on the fourth element of the FORMED: A Discipleship Culture Blueprint. They explored how to assess whether gospel preaching, and church culture produce multiplying disciples rather than just attendees, with Robbie sharing how First Baptist Statesboro tracks spiritual fruit through stories of transformation rather than just counting attendance numbers. The conversation covered practical steps for creating multiplying environments, including finding third-generation disciple makers and making multiplication visible through storytelling. They discussed challenges churches face when disciple-making processes break down, emphasizing the importance of having biblical, scalable, and reproducible systems. The interview concluded with practical suggestions for implementing multiplication, including highlighting disciple-making in membership classes and regularly training church members in discipleship practices.Discipleship Multiplication Effectiveness MeasurementScott and Robbie discussed the fourth element of the FORMED: A Discipleship Culture Blueprint, focusing on intentional multiplication. They explored how to measure the effectiveness of discipleship efforts beyond just attendance numbers, with Robbie sharing how First Baptist Statesboro tracks both metrics and stories of spiritual growth. The conversation highlighted the importance of evaluating fruit rather than just activity, and the need to identify where God is working in the church to join and support those efforts.Church Discipleship Process ImprovementScott and Robbie discussed how to assess and improve disciple-making processes in churches. Robbie emphasized the importance of having a biblical, scalable, and reproducible discipleship process and suggested diagnosing where people are dropping out in the process. They also discussed the need for clear communication of the process to church members. Scott highlighted the challenge of low baptism numbers in some churches and encouraged perseverance, noting that God may be working behind the scenes.Disciple-Making Environment Evaluation StrategiesScott and Robbie discussed evaluating disciple-making environments and preventing stagnation. Robbie shared how he identifies multiplication by looking for third-generation disciple makers, contrasting this with stagnant Sunday school classes. Scott recommended two resources for leaders seeking to implement effective discipleship strategies: the ReFocus Pathfinder revitalization plan through Rob Peters and upcoming regional cohorts launching in April 2026.Discipleship Culture Strategy DiscussionScott and Robbie discussed strategies for creating a discipleship culture in churches, focusing on making multiplication simple and repeatable. Robbie suggested sharing stories of multiplication through videos and social media to inspire others and emphasized the importance of lead pastors discipling others. They also discussed outreach methods, with Robbie sharing First Baptist Statesboro's approach of leveraging everyday interactions rather than traditional visitation programs. The conversation concluded with Robbie highlighting the importance of training disciple-makers and incorporating discipleship into the new member process.

If you’ve ever felt like conflict in the church only leads to division, this message will show you how God can use what divides us to multiply His mission.

Typology, and the Multiplication of Loaves and Fishes. 

Preaching from St Matthew 14th chapter, Fr. Blackburn explains part of the mystery of the feeding of the 5,000 men (not including the women and children) and what it means to follow our Lord's commands when he says to His Church, “You give them something to eat.”

In today's homily, Fr. Tyler Mentzer, MIC, described the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves as a powerful sign of Jesus' desire to nourish His people. When Jesus fed thousands with only a small amount of bread, He showed that His love and generosity have no limits. This miracle points beyond physical hunger to the deeper hunger of the human soul.Fr. Tyler also connected the multiplication of the loaves with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross and His Resurrection. Jesus endured a brutal death, rose victoriously, and now gives the fruits of His sacrifice to millions of people throughout the world. Just as the bread was multiplied for the crowd, the one sacrifice of Christ continues to nourish humanity through every celebration of the Eucharist.The homily presents the Eucharist as the supreme manifestation of God's love. Above and beyond, Jesus does not give Himself only to a few people or only for one moment. He gives Himself continually and abundantly to all who come to Him in faith. In the Eucharist, Jesus always gives more than we expect: His presence, His grace, His healing, and His very life.Readings for August 2nd. 2026: https://bible.usccb.org/bible/readings/080226.cfm© 2026 Marian Fathers of the Immaculate Conception. All rights reserved.⭐️ Support our Ministries:  ★ Support this podcast ★

Can you imagine the crowd's astonishment, how they must have been utterly dumbfounded, by the multiplication miracle by Jesus of those famous five loaves and two fishes? No matter whether that crowd could perceive it fully, the Kingdom was in fact near. The Messiah, Jesus, had come, and He had compassion on His people. The covenant was being renewed. The 12 tribes of Israel were being reconstituted with 12 of the King's followers. Fragments— leftovers and remnants— the broken pieces of God's people were being gathered up. Join Pastor Chris as he looks at the multiplication-- and its implications-- that happened on the shore of the Sea of Galilee so very long ago. Note: The artwork associated with this podcast/sermon is of the mosaic beneath the altar at the Church of the Multiplication in Tabgha. The images referred to in the sermon: Sea of Galilee with towns. Outside the Church of the Multiplication. Inside Church of the Multiplication. Altar of the church. Mosaic beneath the altar.

Are you a former teacher considering homeschooling, or perhaps a parent struggling to make math fun for your kids? In this episode of the Homeschool Yo Kids podcast, Jae sits down with mother-daughter duo Mary and Bobbie to explore the unique journey of transitioning from the classroom to the kitchen table. Learn how to navigate different learning styles and build a foundation for academic success that fits your family's unique lifestyle.

In this episode of the Exponential Australia Church Leaders Podcast, Charlie is joined by Andrew Ranucci, long time church planter and former lead pastor of Coast Community Church, for a deeply practical conversation on what it takes to multiply with health over decades. Andrew shares formative moments from his early discipleship, including an unexpected season of solitude and Scripture in the outback, and the joys and battle scars of planting and leading a church for 26 years, from council battles to internal resistance and the pain of betrayal. Now serving leaders through supervision, mentoring, and spiritual direction, Andrew unpacks what he sees beneath the surface in pastors and planters: the relentless pressure of the urgent, the erosion of personal devotional life, emotional depletion, and a growing loneliness that mirrors a wider societal crisis. He makes a compelling case that one of the most strategic disciplines for leaders is stewarding life giving friendships outside their local church context, the kind of lifelong relationships that stabilise the soul when ministry gets complex. Andrew also previews his conference message aligned to the Multiplier theme, including his personal vision that when the church gathers on Sunday, the pastor would be the healthiest person in the room. It is an episode full of wisdom for leaders who want to plant, lead, and multiply at a pace that produces lasting impact rather than quiet collapse.

COMMENTAIRE DE L'ÉVANGILE DU JOURMt 14, 13-21En ce temps-là, quand Jésus apprit la mort de Jean le Baptiste, il se retira et partit en barque pour un endroit désert, à l'écart. Les foules l'apprirent et, quittant leurs villes, elles suivirent à pied. En débarquant, il vit une grande foule de gens ; il fut saisi de compassion envers eux et guérit leurs malades. Le soir venu, les disciples s'approchèrent et lui dirent : « L'endroit est désert et l'heure est déjà avancée. Renvoie donc la foule : qu'ils aillent dans les villages s'acheter de la nourriture ! » Mais Jésus leur dit : « Ils n'ont pas besoin de s'en aller. Donnez-leur vous-mêmes à manger. » Alors ils lui disent : « Nous n'avons là que cinq pains et deux poissons. » Jésus dit : « Apportez-les moi. » Puis, ordonnant à la foule de s'asseoir sur l'herbe, il prit les cinq pains et les deux poissons, et, levant les yeux au ciel, il prononça la bénédiction ; il rompit les pains, il les donna aux disciples, et les disciples les donnèrent à la foule. Ils mangèrent tous et ils furent rassasiés. On ramassa les morceaux qui restaient : cela faisait douze paniers pleins. Ceux qui avaient mangé étaient environ cinq mille, sans compter les femmes et les enfants. 

Ecoutez RTL Matin avec Vincent Derosier du 31 juillet 2026.Hébergé par Audiomeans. Visitez audiomeans.fr/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

Welcome to Bayside Christian Church! Pastor Ross shares more the Bayside Church Expansion with renovations upcoming to make room for more people in our Sunday services. Feel free to reach out to us here: http://bit.ly/2y2pmIz If you have any queries or want to know more, please email info@baysidechristianchurch.com.au Or visit us at www.baysidechristianchurch.com.au

No matter how educated, resourceful, or driven you are, there are some problems in life you can't solve on your own. But thankfully we don't have to! On this episode of The Verdict, Pastor John Munro explains why the best possible outcome for ourselves and others comes when we surrender completely to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you need a miracle? Perhaps you've been struggling, toiling, trying to solve an impossible situation, but your own efforts simply aren't enough. On this episode of The Verdict, Pastor John Munro reminds us that all things are possible when we surrender our lives and our problems to the Lord Jesus.

Download my meditation and wellness app, Swa:aha.https://app.level.game/?c=zSbmYnCheck out BeerBiceps SkillHouse Courses Here -https://linktr.ee/bbskillhouseFor all BeerBiceps vlog content Watch Life Of BeerBiceps - https://www.youtube.com/@LifeOfBeerBicepsShare your guest suggestions hereMail - connect@beerbiceps.comLink - https://forms.gle/aoMHY9EE3Cg3Tqdx9Follow BeerBiceps SkillHouse's Social Media Handles:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BeerBicepsSkillHouseInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/beerbiceps_skillhouseWebsite : https://beerbicepsskillhouse.inFor any other queries EMAIL: support@beerbicepsskillhouse.comIn case of any payment-related issues, kindly write to support@tagmango.comFollow Sowmay Jain's Social Media Handles:-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sowmayjain/?hl=enLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sowmay/?isSelfProfile=falseX/Twitter : https://x.com/sowmay_jain?lang=enIn this 524th episode of The Ranveer Show, we are joined by Sowmay Jain, a founder now building at the intersection of AI, robotics and biotech, for a wide-ranging conversation on where technology and the human body are headed next.In this conversation, we talk about Sowmay Jain's early years in blockchain before he pivoted hard into AI, running a company with almost no engineers using his own AI agent, why he believes apps are becoming obsolete, the science behind GLP-1 weight-loss drugs and modern biohacking, the global AI compute race between Nvidia, Google, Anthropic and OpenAI, and how meditation and Jain philosophy keep him grounded through it all.This podcast is a must-watch for anyone interested in AI, biotech, startups, and the future of health and longevity.00:05 – Sowmay Jain On TRS03:24 – A Childhood Shaped by Discipline and Spirituality07:18 – Meeting Naval Ravikant & Raising His First Funding09:15 – Why ChatGPT Made Him Pivot Into AI12:17 – The One Skill That Matters in the AI Age20:45 – Why Apps Are Becoming Obsolete29:14 – Running a Company With Almost No Engineers29:21 – Zelta and the Rise of GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs30:12 – The Science Behind Modern Biohacking44:33 – He Shows His Peptide Routine & Injects Himself1:01:15 – Advice for Every 16 to 20-Year-Old1:05:13 – Why Software as a Business Is Dying1:06:15 – The New Power Players in AI1:07:32 – Understanding the Global Compute Race1:13:23 – Why Biotech Could Be the Next Big Opportunity1:21:10 – Thinking About Longevity1:33:44 – Why Meditation Matters in an AI-Driven World1:37:14 – Closing Thoughts

What comes out under pressure reveals what has been forming inside you long before the crisis arrived.In Formed for Multiplication, guest speaker Katrina Boatright walks through Acts 16:16-40 NLT to show how the Holy Spirit formed Paul and Silas through opposition, suffering, worship, and restraint. This message is for anyone facing pressure, questioning whether resistance means they missed God, or trying to understand how personal hardship can serve a purpose beyond survival.In this episode, you'll discover:• Why opposition can confirm obedience rather than expose failure• How pressure reveals the beliefs and reactions already shaping you• Why an open door is not always permission to leave immediately• How staying surrendered can create room for someone else's salvation• Why spiritual formation should produce service, witness, and multiplicationPrimary Scripture: Acts 16:16-40 NLTPurpose City Church | Aurora, ILSunday service at 10:30 AMFollow The Purpose City Church Podcast and visit https://www.purposecitychurch.com/Instagram and Facebook: @wearepurposecity

Watch this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/7gfgXt6w6lM?si=QqIOXfb2XN-gKyG7This educational video includes a short, interactive lesson on multiplication with the number one. #educationalvideo #educationalvideosforkids #mathematics #multiplication #multiplicationofnumbers #multiplicationfacts

durée : 00:39:57 - Les Matins de France Culture - par : Bérengère Bonte - En quelques jours, les incendies qui dévorent la forêt de Fontainebleau en banlieue parisienne ont parcouru plus de 2000 hectares. Face à la multiplication des feux, il faut en prendre plus que jamais toute la mesure et penser, repenser, notre adaptation. - équipe : Félicie Faugère, Mathilde Thon-Fourcade, Victoria Géraut-Velmont, Inès Bouffartigue Sebastia, Rodi Eken, Romain Rincon Hernandez, Salomé Erbs - invités : Pauline Vilain-Carlotti Géographe, Olivier Hamant Directeur de recherche à l'INRAE, au laboratoire de reproduction et développement des plantes à l'ENS Lyon. Vous aimez ce podcast ? Pour écouter tous les épisodes sans limite, rendez-vous sur Radio France

Sharing the ministry load with others helps multiple the Kingdom.

07/12/2026: Multiplication-God's mandate, method, and mission: Don Pritchard

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dave Ferguson, co-founder of Exponential, co-founder of Community Christian Church, and author of Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. For decades, Dave has championed one central conviction: the Church will never fulfill its mission through addition alone. In this conversation, he challenges church leaders to rethink success, embrace multiplication, and cultivate the kind of personal health that sustains lasting kingdom impact. Are you building a church that grows, or a movement that multiplies? Wondering how your leadership today shapes generations of ministry tomorrow? Dave offers a compelling vision for creating influence that extends far beyond your own church. Multiplication changes everything. // Dave believes many church leaders are asking the wrong question. Instead of waking up each day asking, “How can I grow my church?” he challenges leaders to ask, “How can we multiply God's Kingdom?” That subtle shift transforms every leadership decision, from staffing and budgeting to leadership development and church planting. Growth focuses on adding people to one church. Multiplication focuses on reproducing disciples, leaders, churches, and networks that reach beyond one church long after the original leader steps away. The Church needs a new scorecard. // Only a small percentage of churches in the United States are actively reproducing new churches. Through Exponential’s “16% Mission,” the goal is to move enough churches toward multiplication that reproducing churches become the cultural norm rather than the exception. Reaching this tipping point would fundamentally reshape how churches think about mission and influence. Culture beats strategy every time. // Multiplication doesn’t begin with a sermon series or a strategic initiative—it begins with culture. Dave encourages leaders to model multiplication long before they publicly announce it. Whether leading a small group, mentoring an apprentice, or developing future leaders, pastors must demonstrate the behaviors they hope to reproduce. People adopt what leaders consistently practice far more readily than what they merely promote. Health fuels multiplication—not hustle. // While multiplication requires intentional effort, Dave warns against building ministry on relentless hustle. Instead, healthy multiplication grows out of healthy leaders. Churches don’t simply reproduce strategies. They reproduce the character, priorities, and habits of their leaders. If leaders neglect their own well-being, they will unintentionally reproduce that same dysfunction throughout the organization. Watch the four gauges. // At the heart of Dave’s new book, Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, is a simple daily framework for preventing leadership drift. He encourages leaders to evaluate four areas every day: relational health, physical health, mental health, and spiritual health. By honestly assessing these four “gauges,” leaders can recognize unhealthy patterns before they become major failures. Rather than waking up years later wondering how they drifted so far, leaders make small course corrections every day. Even better, Dave encourages processing these areas with trusted community, since accountability helps combat self-deception. Think beyond your lifetime. // Ultimately, Dave invites leaders to adopt a longer horizon for ministry. Buildings, attendance, and personal accomplishments eventually fade, but investing in people creates lasting kingdom influence. When leaders intentionally multiply healthy disciples and healthy leaders, their ministry continues bearing fruit long after they’re gone. That, Dave believes, is the kind of legacy worth pursuing. To learn more about Dave Ferguson, Exponential, and his new book Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, visit exponential.org/multiplier or daveferguson.org. Email Dave directly to get bulk copies of his book. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You’re in for a real treat today. Today is a leader, you know, you have those leaders in your life. You’re like, man, I wish everybody could be exposed to this person and would follow along. And you feel like you’re introducing a friend to friends. That’s what today’s conversation is. And I hope at the same time, it’ll challenge you and encourage you as we think about the future. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dave Ferguson back on the podcast from Exponential. It is a growing community of leaders committed to accelerating multiplication of healthy, reproducing faith communities. They equip multipliers through a variety of resources. You might know their big event, Exponential, but that’s not all they do. They do a lot of other stuff as well.Rich Birch — Dave also was the co-founder of Community Christian in Chicagoland and New Thing. We actually had Ted on recently for a follow-up episode, which is fantastic. So these will this will come out at a similar time. Dave also wrote a book recently that I want you to pick up. It’s called Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. Dave, welcome to the show.Dave Ferguson — Hey, thanks, Rich. Good to be with you. Rich Birch — Yeah, so glad you’re you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the story for folks that don’t know or maybe aren’t following along. Maybe give us fill out the bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background.Dave Ferguson — Long story short yeah, in my early mid-20s I planted a church in Chicago with a whole bunch of friends. God was very very kind to it; it grew had pretty large, and we had locations across the city and the suburbs. Out of that, then we started planting churches. Our first one was in Denver, then Southern California, and then Detroit, then New York, then Boston. And pretty soon we made a shift that we went from not only reproducing new churches, but helping reproduce networks of new churches. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than and we realized.Dave Ferguson — And we got opportunities then to do that in Europe and then in Africa. And next thing you know, fast forward 15, 20 years, and we were in 69 countries. And this will sound better than it is, but we got to help plant over 35,000 churches. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s incredible. Dave Ferguson — And at the same time, we also started Exponential. And so all three of those things had seemed to have God’s favor on it, grew. And in the last year, I apprenticed a new lead pastor, Ted Coniaris, that you referenced, who is, I guess, recently on the podcast… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Dave Ferguson — …and who’s doing a great job at Community.Dave Ferguson — And then then on top of that, we moved New Thing underneath Exponential. So Exponential actually acquired New Thing. And for us, that feels really good. It was pretty, pretty easy transition, but feels really good because we have something we call the 16% mission that we’re going after. And it’s starting to feel actually achievable now. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool. Dave Ferguson — So I think I think that’s all that’s all the things.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s it. Just that’s it. Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s so good. And, you know, there’s a lot I respect about you and your leadership. But one of the core things I love is you’ve really given your life to multiplication. You’re focused on this idea, helping us think about and then really in the best sort of way, poking and prodding and pushing us to come back to this idea. Rich Birch — I think for many of us, the word multiplication is the kind of thing we can hear it so many times. We can kind of tune it out or it like, what does that actually mean? Aren’t we all committed to multiplication? Isn’t it, isn’t that just what it means? So why does it still matter to the church today? Really lay it on thick here. Why is multiplication such a big deal?Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I mean, two things real quick. I mean, one for every one of your listeners, if they’re involved in ministry, I mean, they want, they they’re trading their life and they want to make the greatest impact they can. And I’m telling you, when you don’t invest in multiplication, you’re short selling yourself. You’re not going to, you’re not going to get to make the kind of impact that God intended for you to, or you possibly could.Dave Ferguson — So, I mean, Let me give you a quick example, so it becomes real tangible.Dave Ferguson — So two weeks ago, I was in Long Beach, California, and I ran into Matt Larson. Matt’s a guy who did a leadership residency with us probably, man, it’s been a long time ago now, 15 years ago. So he basically came, spent a year with us at Community, really sharp leader, but he didn’t really understand how to multiply. And we kind of helped him understand how to do that. Dave Ferguson — So he does that, goes back to Ventura, California, plants Anthem Church, and they’ve planted 15 churches. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Dave Ferguson — So think about this and this this. And I don’t know how you keep score, but this is how I keep score with my own, how am I making a difference?Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — So like even like if I’m taking a day off in Chicago… Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — …Matt’s still working in Ventura, California, and he’s planting churches. Rich Birch — Right. Amazing.Dave Ferguson — And I, you know, you’ve heard me probably say like my favorite quote from Bob Buford, my fruit grows in other people’s trees.Dave Ferguson — That’s what multiplication does. Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — Instead of just having one tree, you get a whole orchard. Dave Ferguson — Or Troy McMahon, who’s one of my best friends.Dave Ferguson — My wife’s getting ready to go to Kansas City to see his wife in just a few hours here.Dave Ferguson — And I mean, again, probably 15 years ago, they took 25 people who moved from Chicago to Kansas City. We blessed them and sent them with some money. They’ve gone to multiple locations.Dave Ferguson — They’ve started four networks there in Kansas City and have probably planted somewhere between 60 and 70 churches.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.Dave Ferguson — I mean, again, if I can say it this way, like I count that.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — I’m just telling people. So if you just want to kind of focus on just your thing, you will never, ever make the kind of impact you can if you invest in multiplication of multiplying other leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — And the other thing, so one, it’s in your best interest because you got this game not to make money. None of us are making any money, right?Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — You got this game because you’re like, this is the best way I can make a difference. And if you’re not doing multiplication, you’re short selling yourself.Dave Ferguson — But let me add one more thing.Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — It’s also how the mission gets accomplished. I mean, if you went into Acts 1:8, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth, and Jesus said, okay, here four more guys.Dave Ferguson — Last time, before I leave, i want to shoot here’s here’s the mission, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth. The only way that that’s going to happen is if there’s a movement, and movement does not happen unless there’s multiplication.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, and there’s, ah you know, one of the things I appreciate about kind of the the you and the broader exponential movement, I think you’ve helped really sharpen this conversation, tighten this up and get clarity for us, which I think is is positive.Rich Birch — And, you know, I bump into a lot of churches that are struggling, a lot of teams that are struggling with getting their their staff to be Ephesians 4 type people, people that are equipping others, that are multiplying others, that they, and there’s an interesting connection between these two, right? Somewhere we thought, oh, you could reach a bunch of people, but not actually equip anyone, which is so strange, right? It’s a strange, and actually there’s only a tiny fraction of churches that are actually multiplying today.Rich Birch — Most are only doing addition. I think this this thinking is one of the ways I think you’ve helped us sharpen this up. Why do you think that math is so stuck and kind of unpack that, help us understand, you know, the kind of the problem we’re trying to attack here.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I think one of the things you’re referencing, so I casually talked about the 16% mission. Let me back up.Dave Ferguson — We want to see 16%, and I know your audience is bigger than the United States, but in the U.S., that’s where our exponential U.S.’s focus is. We want to see 16% of all churches in the U.S. become reproducing or multiplying churches. And that means that they’ve ever planted a church in the last three years.Dave Ferguson — When we first did the homework on this, it’s only about 4%. Now we’ve moved the needle in the last 10 years to 7%. Rich Birch — Amazing.Dave Ferguson — We think in the next five years, we can get to 10%. In the next 10 years, we can get to 16%. And 16% is kind of that tipping point. Where the of that tipping point, you get the right innovators and early adopters. They will convince the whole that this should be normative.Dave Ferguson — And that’s what we’re trying to do. So with that in mind, you’re right. So we’re still only at 7%. And I think the biggest… we’re stuck we’re stuck in an existing paradigm. We’re like fish swimming in water that um we think the best that we can do is grow a church. And I And I think candidly, here’s how I’d frame it up. I think most leaders wake up every morning asking the question, how can can grow my church?Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — How can I grow my church? And that’s a good question, but it’s not a great question. It’s not an Acts 1:8 question.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dave Ferguson — It’s not the kind of question going allow you to maximize your impact, you know, where you’re sleeping in on a Saturday you’ve got a guy in Kansas City and you’ve got a guy in Southern California who’s planting churches. Okay.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — A better question is how do we multiply God’s kingdom? Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — And if and if we could get if we could get leaders to wake up every morning asking that question. Okay, and again, I and versus we, because it’s going to take us working together, not just grow, like addition, but actually multiply, multiplication, and not just my church, but actually God’s kingdom.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s going to make a huge difference in the kingdom. And I think, so when you get stuck in that kind of addition, like how do I grow my church, it impacts decisions you make about money… Rich Birch — Yep. Dave Ferguson — …because you’re going to go, oh, I need to keep that here. So we can you know add another you know and add another wing to our building versus like, oh, guess what? Maybe if I so if i sent that money to you know this church plant, it’s going to result in 70 churches in Kansas City.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s highly leveraged like venture spiritual venture capital is what it is. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — It implements the decisions we make about staff. You know, we want to hold on to our best staff instead of developing them. And then some of them who actually have the capability of starting other churches and even networks, blessing them and sending them out and going like, yeah, I’m a spiritual father and these are my kids. I’m cheering them on. Dave Ferguson — So I think that’s that’s, we’re kind of stuck in this paradigm and it’s not a biblical one, but it is a paradigm that we’re stuck in.Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. And, you know, I’ve similarly been with a lot of leadership teams where we’re in the kind of growth conversation. And I’ll come at that from ah kind of the almost the opposite end, but you end in the same place, which you end up saying, like, this box is not big enough to contain the number of people that your church is hoping to reach.Rich Birch — Like we can’t build a box big enough to do that.Rich Birch — I don’t care how much money, I don’t care how good you are at fundraising, you can’t do that. So we have to multiply. If you really think that we are trying to reach and make an impact in our community, if there’s so many churches say, we’re for whatever city we’re in, we’re for Chicago, we’re for whatever.Rich Birch — If you’re really for that, then you have to be by definition for multiplication and for other churches and for seeing, you know, this thing multiplying out. We can’t, we can’t get them all to come here. That’s never going to work. That’s just, it doesn’t work at all.Dave Ferguson — And here’s thing you can, though, do. I mean, you’re right. If it’s just about their butts in your seats, whatever. But if it’s about you bringing them and equipping them and then sending them out, oh, that’s highly leveraged. And that could be a really good use of a building or facility.Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. That’s good. So, so much of this conversation, you know, I want to tap in your expertise. We’ve got a lot of lot of executive pastors listening in. You know, you have been in the one of the multiple seats you’ve sat in has been the kind of lead pastor seat. And let’s talk to some XPs from your perspective as as a you know a lead pastor around this area.Dave Ferguson — Oh, good. Those are the people actually the stuff done. They’re not just the top. These are the executors.Rich Birch — But let’s let’s think that through. So vision isn’t just about getting up on Sunday and preaching about it. You’ve actually led organizations that have done this stuff. And you know you’ve you’ve cast a compelling vision, but then have seen the organizations actually go out and make this stuff happen. So we think about it from our seat as an executive pastor. What is the executive pastor? Where do we actually come into play in this thing? What’s our piece of the puzzle? How can we help kind of move this thing forward at an operational level? You you named a couple of things, money, staffing. Help us think through that.Dave Ferguson — and And the assumption here is, okay, so the lead pastor is pro-multiplication, and now you have to execute the vision.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — I I think one of the things, grab a hold of how do we create ah a multiplication culture? Because if you can create a multiplication in culture, you will literally become, people in your church will become unconsciously competent.Dave Ferguson — I’m thinking of a real quick story. A friend of mine named Doug. Doug was a guy who was nominally involved at Community. All right. Long story short, only because his wife insisted he joined a small group that Sue and I were leading. Now I didn’t have an apprentice leader in that small group, which is which is not good, okay? That’s how you don’t create a culture.Dave Ferguson — But we went through six weeks and I went up to Doug and I said, I told him, I said, hey… And actually said in front of the whole group because he’s the kind of guy I could do this to. I said, hey, I know this group would like to continue, but we can’t continue unless we have an apprentice leader.Rich Birch — Nice.Dave Ferguson — And I said, Doug, will you be my apprentice leader?Rich Birch — That’s great. Dave Ferguson — He’s kind of like you. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — Big guy with a bald head. Beads his sweat or popping on top of his head. He says, all right, I’ll do it, I’ll do it, I’ll do it. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — So he he agrees to be my apprentice leader. So I start meeting with him because the group was on Wednesdays. I’d meet with him on Tuesdays at Starbucks around 4 o’clock as he’d finish up work. And we’d kind of…And I remember his first question to me was like, hey, so if I’m going to be an apprentice leader, I should read the Bible, I guess, right?Dave Ferguson — I’m like, yeah, you probably should.Rich Birch — Yes, it’s a good starting point.Dave Ferguson — And so I told him how I how I do it. But over the course of the next 14 months or so, um you know, I basically apprenticed him through what we call the the five steps.Dave Ferguson — And here’s here’s the fun part of this story. OK, so Doug didn’t have much of a church background.Dave Ferguson — So he gets to the place where he thinks he’s ready to lead a group. And I think he’s ready, which people ask me a lot. how do you know when a leader is ready? I think it’s really that it’s that simple when they think they’re ready and you think they’re ready, they’re ready. And so I said, okay, why don’t you take over this group? It’ll be easy for me to go start a new group. You take… And he he said, okay. Dave Ferguson — I come back, like two or three weeks later, to Starbucks on Tuesday at 4 o’clock, sitting at the exact same table where we would always sit was Doug and his brand new apprentice, Tim.Rich Birch — Love it.Dave Ferguson — And so Doug was like unconsciously competent. He was like, oh, I thought I thought every church in America did that. I thought that’s how it works. I didn’t know I had a choice.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — And if you create a culture of multiplication, that’s what will happen over and over and over again.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Well, and and yeah, what a vivid picture. And, you know, we’ve got to move our our people and our systems towards, you know, continuing to multiply at every level. When you think about a church that’s stuck and it maybe is is just focusing on addition. They’re really in that, but they they have a desire to want to multiply.Rich Birch — Is your recommendation, or maybe what you’ve seen happen, the churches that have actually made that pivot towards multiplication, is it like a ground up thing? Like we start with, man, we’ve got to get all of our, you know, all of our team leaders get an apprentice, let’s go there. And then we’ll trickle up through the organization, which then leads to the conclusion. Oh, by the way, we’re going to have to, we’re going to multiply because we’ve kind of built this culture.Rich Birch — Or, is it better to go or or maybe there’s advantages to go one way or the other from the kind of the, hey, we’re going to declare this and that’s going to kind of pull us towards multiplication. Do you understand what I’m saying? Ground up or we cast a vision to pull towards it.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. And creating the culture.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. In creating the culture, yeah.Dave Ferguson — If you haven’t, if you, if you don’t currently have that kind of culture, here’s what I would encourage leaders to do. I do think it does start at the top with like the lead pastor and the executive pastor.Dave Ferguson — And I encourage leaders at every level. I said, lead at the smallest level of your organization and lead at the largest level and you train and trust everybody in between.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good.Dave Ferguson — You want, and so for, I mean, all, whatever it was, 30 some years at Community, I always led a small group and I tried to always have an apprentice leader. So you need to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get, okay. And I think there was a moment where you declare, Hey, this is who we are. And you need to decide if you want to buy in or not. You’re firm, but kind about that. Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get all of your staff, plus all the people that you consider as leaders and key influencers, which is probably somewhere around 16 to 20% of your total church. You get them bought into it.Dave Ferguson — Once you get them bought into it, and it’ll probably take you a year and they’re actually doing this stuff. Then you preach a sermon on it. Then you start casting vision on it. Then you declare it for the whole, because what will happen is that, again, kind of back to that innovators and early adopters. When they’re in the lobby and somebody comes them and goes like, hey, what do you think about this idea of apprenticeship? And we’re all going to have apprentices or multiply. They’ll already have been done it. They’ll have done it for a year.Dave Ferguson — And they’ll be like, oh, yeah, I think this is awesome. And that’s exactly what you want.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. And even what you’re doing.Dave Ferguson — I guess I’m questioning if you’re ready to make that shift, I wouldn’t preach a sermon on it first, because what they’re going to do is if you’re preaching a sermon on it and you’re not doing this stuff, what happens is you implicitly and almost accidentally create a culture that says, oh, I don’t actually have to do this stuff because the guy who’s casting the vision only talks about it and doesn’t actually do it. And so you create that culture, which is what we have a lot of.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, I for sure I’ve seen a lot of that in, you know, in the churches I’ve been a part of, even with stuff like ah the fact that you, you know, were leading in a group, you know, I’ve I’ve seen a number, not necessarily the lead pastors I’ve worked for, but in churches where there’s like the lead pastor, they like elevate themselves out of that kind of thing. And they’re like Oh, I don’t need to interact with normal people. And, and that comes out, you know, I’ve, cause I’ve said it all the time to lead pastors. I’m like, even simply like, I would way rather you that just leak out of you that you’re, that you’re apprenticing a leader in a small group.Rich Birch — Then, then we have some big thing on why apprenticing is important because people will catch the the small little things, the little breadcrumbs here and there. They’ll catch that at a more powerful level than the big, let’s put a, let’s get a brand name, stick it on a wall, you know, kind of thing. That’s cool. That’s great.Dave Ferguson — It’ll but end up in your sermons, it’ll end sidebars, hallway conversations. Here’s one of my favorite examples. You know, Nicky Gumbel, right?Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — So Nicky’s the guy who previously was the vicar at Holy Trinity Brompton. He was really the guy who kind of really brought out Alpha… Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …which you might say is, I mean, right there with Billy Graham and the Apostle Paul… Rich Birch — Yeah, Oh, absolutely. 100%. Dave Ferguson — …greatest evangelistic tools that we’ve ever had.Rich Birch — Yes. 100%.Dave Ferguson — One of the things I love about Nicky is I don’t know how exactly how many years, it’s probably been 40 years. Every semester for 40 years, he always leads an Alpha course.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Dave Ferguson — There’s a reason they have such a strong culture and so powerful. Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — And that’s a big mistake. I mean, I think as, you know, we’ve planted church and starts to grow. And we’re trying to figure out, what can I do and what shouldn’t I do? And one of the first things that goes, oh well, I just won’t lead a small group anymore. I won’t lead a missional community anymore. Whatever is that smallest organizing principle is, you want to hold on to that. Train and trust everybody else to do everything in between. Rich Birch — That’s very good.Dave Ferguson — And as you continue to grow and scale, yeah, influence way out there. But but Ii’ll hold on to this too.Rich Birch — Yeah, continuing to shout out Nikki, I just think the world of Alpha… Dave Ferguson — I do too. Rich Birch — …and it’s been so effective for our our church. And I had an opportunity to interact with him right in the teeth of COVID. I was doing an interview with him. And he, we were talking about some stuff and i it really marked, it was one of those like you lean forward and you’re like, okay, that’s interesting.Rich Birch — He was talking about how he’s like, you know, for years, the meal is a big deal for for Alpha and like, you know, hospitality is a big deal for that. And he said, I was always critical of people that did Alpha online. He’s like, I was always critical of people doing it over Zoom and was like, I would say you can’t do it over Zoom. You can’t do it over Zoom.Rich Birch — And he said, obviously people did it over Zoom and I wasn’t stopping them, but I was, I poo-pooed it. Well, then well then COVID came. And he said exactly what you said. I’m still leading alpha courses and our Apha groups. And so I’m in an Alpha group. And what do you know? This is amazing. God works through this. Rich Birch — And so I was really struck by that, that he as a leader would have the humility to say, hey, I was wrong, but I’m enough in the weeds of this thing to understand, okay, what are the actual implications for our ministry? I think that’s a huge lesson for us to pull away.Dave Ferguson — Well, I mean, two things…Rich Birch — And yeah, I think it’s 35 million people they put through that. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — My thought is two things. One, is I remember that podcast. So thank you very much. I remember going, listening to him. And and and excuse me. And it shaped a lot of the ways I even thought about COVID from hearing from him on that.Dave Ferguson — But I think I think this the second thing is, I think what you were kind of replying to, you have to be in the weeds… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …in order to know how the next innovation is going to happen. I mean, if if he wasn’t doing that, he would have kept with his assumption, no, it’s not going to work and maybe made a lot of bad choices.Rich Birch — Right, right. And we would end up in ah yeah and a very tough spot today. In a lot of ways, that that ministry continues to accelerate… Dave Ferguson — Oh, yeah. Rich Birch — …or that movement really continues to accelerate ah you know in these years, which is amazing.Rich Birch — So one of the things let’s talk about, so one of the things I’ve heard you say is that you really build the case that multiplication has to be built on health, not on hustle. And you know there was a previous generation that was really valued like we wanted leaders. We didn’t want leaders that were burnt out, but we wanted them one step back from being burnt out. We wanted them like right there, right at the line. But what, you know, but I know that’s not what you’re advocating for. But it but I think sometimes our teams, our people, our cultures can look at this and say, this feels like one more thing to do.Rich Birch — So what why does this distinction of health, not hustle, how does that factor in when we’re thinking about actually trying to become a multiplying organization when we’re, you know, we’ve got lots of other stuff to carry as we’re thinking about it. Help us understand that.Dave Ferguson — My experience, particularly working with church planters and other leaders, is they aren’t afraid to hustle. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And in fact, that’s our default position, that I that I will I can maybe outwork the next person. And they’re willing to do it for it for a good cause. But even though we are willing to that, it actually gives us the wrong result. Because if we only hustle more, if only work more, you’re not going to make the impact you could, like I’ve already described, if you’re multiplying more. So I am constantly encouraging leaders, don’t work more, multiply more. Don’t work more, multiply more. And that’s how you make the biggest impact. Dave Ferguson — The other part of that, which is really important, I kind of have a conviction. We knew that we need to try to do the Jesus mission the Jesus way.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — We want to do the Jesus mission, the Jesus way. And I think that has to do with, no, I’m going to try to i’m gonna try to be a great dad. I want to try to be a great husband. I want to try to be a good steward of this body that I have. I want to pay attention to what my thought life, I want to pay attention to my anxiety and and and and levels and and am I feeling depressed? I want to make sure I’m okay spiritually.Dave Ferguson — And I think if we’re doing those kinds of things, we’re checking what I call these four gauges, I think will be healthy leaders.Dave Ferguson — And here’s the axiom that I have kind of led by, especially over the last couple decades, is that you will reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yes. Right.Dave Ferguson — So if if if you want to reproduce unhealth, then be unhealthy. But like if you really want, if you want the, if you want the, the guys in your church to be really good dads. You don’t have to be a perfect dad, but just put in the effort and let them know that you’re also putting in the effort.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — If you want to be a you want people to be you know really good spouses, then try to be that yourself. Because you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I really appreciate that you’re you know that you’re pressing on these issues. I think this is a a critical thing you know for us, and particularly as we, you know I’m in a phase of my ministry where looking on to like, okay, how am I handing this stuff off?Rich Birch — What am I doing to try to help the next generation? And man, I would love the next generation to, I think one of the things that particularly Gen Z leaders are attuned to is they seem to be naturally attuned to like, we’re not going to like drive over a cliff for this thing. We want to do this in a healthy manner. Rich Birch — And and you’re not obviously, you know, you’re highly productive. You get a lot done and Exponential is a highly productive organization. You do a lot. But we want to do it—I like that—you were saying, you know, the Jesus mission, in the Jesus way. That’s actually at the heart of your most recent book Multiplier. Rich Birch — You talk, you kind of referenced these four gauges. Can you unpack that a little bit more at a high level? Help us understand what are the four gauges? And what were you hoping with this book? Why, why another book? Why is this one? What are you hoping this accomplishes for churches?Dave Ferguson — I think there’s a lot of great content out there about personal health, emotional health, how to have a rule of life, that kind of stuff. And we and we need to avail ourselves to it. I think there’s also a lot of great stuff and some of it that I’ve helped contribute to around how do you multiply? How do you you know develop leaders? How do you hero making? All that kind of stuff.Dave Ferguson — What I tried to do in this book though is show how those are so interconnected. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Dave Ferguson — That if you really want to do this for a long time, and that’s how you make the biggest impact, it’s only going to come if you’re a healthy leader, because again, you reproduce who you are.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — And so what we do is we kind of, we, we, we talk about the problem and the problem that all of us face, in the first couple of chapters, is what I call drift.Dave Ferguson — And we drift because…maybe frame it this way. I’ve never had a conversation with a young leader who tells me, hey, 15 years from now, here’s my dream: I hope I’m 50 pounds overweight and divorced and compromising my core convictions.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Dave Ferguson — I’ve never had that conversation. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — But we read about it almost every week. And I sometimes share the story. I mean, I was in a small group with some of the most influential pastors, maybe in the world, but definitely in Chicago for about eight or nine years. If I tried to reassemble that group today, half the seats would be empty.Dave Ferguson — And I don’t think it’s, and I think it’s because they, they drifted and they unintentionally ended up someplace they never intended to be.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Rich Birch — Dave Ferguson — They didn’t intend to end up, you know, in a hotel room with a woman that wasn’t plan A, when they planted a church. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — Or to create a toxic culture, which really benefited them more than other people i don’t think that was like the, the goal from the very beginning. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.Dave Ferguson — And I think what happens is we incrementally, we drift a little bit of time until, you know, in a variety of ways, we end up someplace we never intended to be. So one of the things that I do, I’ll I'll just, maybe I’ll show you here too. I know, this is, this is, I’ll just show you. And I don’t, I know we’re not doing anything on video. I don’t think, but this is, this is kind of, this is my journal.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — Oh, that’s one from like December. Wow. That’s old. There we go. There we go. That’s actually yesterday. And so like, I just write these four letters, RPMS in my journal almost every day.Dave Ferguson — And R stands for relational. How are things with Sue, the kids, my friends?Dave Ferguson — P stands for physical. How am I doing stewarding this body? For me, it’s a trip the fitness center or out running on the prairie path. Dave Ferguson — How am I doing mentally, which has to do with kind of stress or anxiety or thought life?Dave Ferguson — And then how am I doing spiritually? What’s going on between me and God? Dave Ferguson — And then so I just make a little gauge here and I kind of just, where am I? Where am I? And then I actually go ahead and give myself, I like to keep score. If we got executive pastors, they’ll like this. You should keep score.Rich Birch — Yeah, they like numbers. Stuff that ends up on spreadsheets. It’s good.Dave Ferguson — So you can see, like, so I gave myself a score for each of those on a scale of 1 to 10, then a composite, which was 5, which was actually down from 5.25 the day before. And I think that’s because, as you can kind of hear, I got a little bit of a cold, so I’m not feeling well.Dave Ferguson — And, but I, I try to do this every day. And I encourage leaders, those four gauges, relational, physical, mental, spiritual. If you’ll just spend four minutes every day…Rich Birch — That’s so good.Dave Ferguson — …reflecting on those four areas prayerfully, how am I doing relationally? How am I doing physically? How am I doing mentally? How doing spiritually? You’re going to drift. We all drift, but here’s the thing. You’re not going to go a whole month or a whole year or a decade and and suddenly wake up, you know, and someone’s dragging you into court and you’re going like, how in the world did I end up here?Rich Birch — Yeah, I think this is…Dave Ferguson — And so… Rich Birch — Yeah, I would just want to… Dave Ferguson — …it’s hopefully it’s a very, very practical tool for here’s how you can do this every day. And and let me throw this in Rich too, because I want to make sure I hit this. And then if you can do it in community… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …that’ll way mitigate how much you lie to yourself.Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — t’s like if a small group or a missional community every week, just checking in or once a month with another group that you’re you’re working with, I think that if you do that, it’s not foolproof, but it’ll be a big, big, big help.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. The human, uh, human propensity for self-delusion is incredible, right? Like our ability to like become, to lie to ourselves, let alone other people is amazing. You know, I, I want to just honor you for, I think, you know, I, obviously I saw it Exponential this year where you’ve been rolling it out. I’ve, I’ve, I haven’t read the entire book yet, but I’ve read a bunch of it. And I really appreciate that at this phase in your, journey, you’re raising this flag, I think, and connecting it so, you know, integrally to the multiplier, the multiplication mission. I think that is so critically important because we, you know, we’ve seen those leaders who make a series of foolish, unwise decisions that ultimately end up in a tragic spot.Rich Birch — And oftentimes it’s like, I don’t know what to say to people. How do you avoid that? And I like that you have, you’ve put together a framework here to help us think that. Now, as you’ve rolled the book out to folks…Dave Ferguson — How old you how old are you, Rich?Rich Birch — 52.Dave Ferguson — 52. Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — Okay. Like, I’m convinced God’s probably got at least another 20 years… Rich Birch — Sure. Dave Ferguson — …you know, and ah and in some ways it’ll probably be your highest impact years.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.Dave Ferguson — But if one of these gauges goes way south and takes you out, like there’s 20 of the best years of difference-making that we don’t get from Rich Birch. And it’s not just Rich Birch. Every one of the people listening to the podcast. I mean, I think there’s a whole bunch of people that God goes like, no, I got 75 years or 80 years of difference making. And let’s do the whole run.Rich Birch — Yeah. No, I appreciate that. That’s why I think it’s, it’s I'm not doing a good way I’m not doing a good job articulating. I think it’s a gift that you’ve given to the church because you’re helping us actually attack this problem in a really super practical, good way that that I can see it making a huge difference.Rich Birch — And I would agree with you. I think what I realized after being however many decades in ministry, there’s like a real cumulative effect here that it’s like, you know, each decade, I thought things were great in my thirties and then I hit my forties and now I’m in my fifties.Rich Birch — I’m like, oh my goodness, there’s and and sometimes people will say, they’ll they’ll ask you know kind of questions like, you know hey, how do you basically, you know how do you do what you do or whatever? And a part of I’m like, well, you just stay in it. Like you just keep doing it, right? And stay in the game and stay plugged in and yeah.Dave Ferguson — And the and the longer your influence continues to grow, I mean, like, in the kindest, humble way, if Rich Birch emails somebody, you respond. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s kind.Dave Ferguson — Because I mean, you’ve put in so much time you mean now that you you’re able to get things done that quicker than you couldn’t before because people know who you are, they’re interested in what you’re doing, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s true.Dave Ferguson — And I think that’s true with all of us. Our influence will just continue to grow if we stay faithful to this.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great. So I want to, I’m going to, we’re going to talk about where you can get the book in a minute, but just before we get there, of the four, this book’s been out now for a while and it’s out in the world. It’s, you know, as an author, I know that’s a very different experience. You go from writing and then it goes out there and then people react to it.Rich Birch — Are there any of those four gauges that you’ve been surprised by the reaction or you’ve noted the reaction? Like, oh, that’s interesting. I’m hearing from people or I’ve seen, you know, maybe it’s a conversation or that sort of thing that any four of those have kind of bubbled up in in discussion.Dave Ferguson — I think the one, I think that’s what surprised me so far in the conversation is how important the physical gauge, how, how underestimated it is and how important it is.Rich Birch — Oh, interesting. Tell me more.Dave Ferguson — I was just, I was just in a conversation this morning with somebody who’s telling me that he’s really been working on these four gauges and for him in the last year’s dropped 40 pounds. And he’s like, it has, it has really shifted my influence, my, my leadership.Dave Ferguson — He said, I just, I feel more confident walking into a room. And I, yeah, I think probably as Christian leaders, we probably downplay that one the most. And I'm I am surprised.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — I’m not saying it’s the most important of the four… Rich Birch — No. Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …but I am surprised how important it is and the feedback I’m getting on it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I can see that. I can see that for sure.Dave Ferguson — Yeah, I mean we’re whole people.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, the, the days I ride that Peloton in the morning, I’m better at, I’m a better husband those days. I’m a better, you know, it’s, it just works out, which is, yeah, that’s really cool.Rich Birch — All right. So we want to, so when I, as I’ve been going through this, what I’ve been struck by is, man, I think this could be a real gift for our team’s to go through together. i think this could be a great tool for our staff teams. Maybe if I’m an executive pastor, it’s like, Hey, what if we went through this with our senior leaders first? And then maybe we roll it out to our teams or something like that. Where can people pick up copies of this book? Where do we want to send them online to get them? I’m assuming Amazon. Is there anywhere else we want to send them?Dave Ferguson — You know what? Let me give you two things that comes to mind. One is if they’re ready to make a commitment, say, hey, I want to be a multiplier. If you go exponential.org/multiplier, exponential.org/multiplier, there’s a place there where you can say, hey, I want to be a multiplier.Dave Ferguson — We’ll explain how you can be involved in meetups and cohorts and resource. We actually have a multiplier digital check-in. So you can actually do this online every day, that kind of stuff. So that’s one place that would be, I think, really fun.Dave Ferguson — But you’re right, um a lot of people are using it as a book to go over with their with their staff or with their teams or even their networks. And if they’re going to get, I think it’s like six or seven or more, maybe it’s a dozen, somewhere in that neighborhood, you’re going to get more than few, go ahead and email me and I’ll tell you you get a bulk discount. And that’s dave@exponential.orgRich Birch — Great.Dave Ferguson — dave@exponential.org – Say, hey, I’m going to do this with my team. How can I get a bulk discount? And my assistant, Sarah or me, will get back to you and let you know how you can do that.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s fantastic. Friends, I don’t say this with every author that comes on, but I really, I would highly endorse, would recommend that you do that. I think this could be the book you should pick up maybe this summer, read it by yourself, read it with a small group of people. I do think this could be, I think it’s a critical resource. I think it’s, I think this is more than just like, hey, it’s another book. You know, I think there’s a real potential here for this to shift the conversation in a really positive way in the broader church. So I would love more people to pick it up. Well, Dave, this has been incredible. I really appreciate you being here today. Any final words as we kind of land today’s episode?Dave Ferguson — I would probably come back to, if I was going leave people with one thought, is just just remember that you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — So good. Appreciate you, Dave. Thanks so much. We want to send people to exponential.org. Is there anywhere else online we want them to go if they want to track with you or with the movement or anything like that?Dave Ferguson — I mean um I’m on most of the socials, so you can follow me there. DaveFerguson.org, DaveFerguson.org, if, you know, for some reason you want me to speak or do something or find other books that I’ve written.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for being here today, sir. Appreciate that.Dave Ferguson — Hey, my pleasure.

Welcome to the Influence Podcast! I'm George P. Wood, executive editor of Influence magazine and your host. Joe Oden writes the following in his new book, Empowered to Pray: In an hour when many leaders are fixated on numerical growth, how to accommodate and make seekers feel comfortable, leadership strategies, higher education, and enhanced communications, we observe that well-intended leaders are trying to advance the kingdom of God in their own strength. However, when we look at the ministry of Jesus and the early church, we find a different path forward. … Their foundation was prayer, and everything they did originated from their private and corporate devotions. In this episode of the Influence Podcast, I talk to Oden about the importance of prayer for Christian ministry, as well how the Lord himself teaches us to pray. Oden is an evangelist, ordained Assemblies of God minister, and director of the AG World Prayer Center. He is also author of Empowered to Pray: Advancing the Kingdom of God Through Prayer and Intercession, published by Gospel Publishing House.   Sponsor AdThis episode of the Influence podcast is brought to you by Gospel Publishing House, distributors of Multiplication Mindset. In Multiplication Mindset, Gerad Strong brings together decades of real-life ministry experience—revitalizing churches, multiplying campuses, and equipping leaders—to help leaders move beyond addition thinking and into sustainable, mission-driven impact. Multiplication isn't a strategy for a few high-capacity churches. It's God's design for every church. For more information about Multiplication Mindset visit GospelPublishingHouse.com.   Show Notes 00:00 — Introduction and Sponsor Ad 02:32 — Tell us more about how private and corporate prayer are the foundation of Christian ministry. 07:23 — Does prayer compete with leadership strategies, or are they complementary? 10:52 — Why does prayer need a set place, a specific time, and ample time? 14:18 — Why are both "crisis" moments and "process" habits important? 21:09 — What is intimacy with God, and how do we develop it? 24:03 — What does God want? And when does it come to pass? 28:32 — How does God's kingdom advance through the Church, irrespective of law and politics? 34:48 — How does Jesus teach us to pray with persistence? 40:33 — What does the Assemblies of god World Prayer Center do, and how can someone get involved with it? 42:51 — What are you reading right now that is interesting, helpful, and/or personally challenging? 44:49 — Conclusion

How do ordinary believers become part of an extraordinary movement of God? On LDP Takeover Sunday, Louis Leidenfrost—Discipleship Director at Elevate City Church and a graduate of the Leadership Development Program (LDP)—shares his powerful testimony and unpacks 2 Timothy 2 to reveal God's strategy for making disciples who make disciples. Through the biblical examples of the soldier, athlete, and farmer, this message challenges every Christian to embrace a lifestyle of discipleship, spiritual multiplication, and wholehearted devotion to Jesus. Whether you're new to following Christ or ready to take your next step in the Great Commission, this sermon will encourage you to invest in others, stay faithful in every season, and join the mission of seeing lives transformed by the gospel.

En Moldavie, les arnaques téléphoniques prennent une ampleur inédite. Majoritairement menées depuis l'étranger, ces fraudes ont causé un préjudice de plus de 8 millions d'euros depuis le début de l'année. Les personnes âgées, souvent moins familières des nouvelles technologies, figurent parmi les principales cibles des escrocs. Dans certains cas, la police a rapporté des pertes individuelles pouvant atteindre près de 50 000 euros. Selon les autorités moldaves, ces opérations pourraient être, au moins en partie, orchestrées depuis la Russie afin de miner la confiance de la population dans les institutions et de déstabiliser le pays.  Un reportage de notre correspondante à Chisinau à retrouver dans la longueur dans Accents d'Europe. À lire aussiL'intégration européenne de la Moldavie face au défi posé par la région séparatiste de Transnistrie

MOVING TOWARDS OWNERSHIP When leaders own the mission, the mission multiplies. "And what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also." (2 Timothy 2:2, ESV) The next time you pull into a McDonald's, look for the sign underneath those golden arches: "Billions and Billions Served" This is not clever marketing, it is the celebration of a culture of multiplication. When Ray Kroc bought into the McDonald brothers in 1954, he saw more than a fast food restaurant. He saw something ready to be multiplied. Kroc realized the genius of McDonald's was not just the product. It was their process. He knew that if he could take what was working in one location and make it repeatable, then growth would no longer be tied to one location or even a single owner. So in 1955, he pioneered the franchise model and built a system that allowed others to carry the mission. Today there are over 40,000 locations around the world. But Ray Kroc did not build those 40,000 restaurants. He raised people who thought like him. And because of that, the mission no longer depended on him. He built a culture of ownership that built 40,000 restaurants without him. Take that thought into the Kingdom. There are billions and billions waiting to be served, and the mission of the church is to reach every one of them. We will never reach those multitudes without moving toward multiplication. If Grace World is going to become all God has called us to be, a church that awakens hearts, connects in community, trains for purpose, and sends into fullness, then we have to make a shift. What we produce is good. The process works. But moving from a great church to a multiplying church requires more than better systems and stronger strategies. It requires more people owning the mission. Because when leaders own the mission, the mission multiplies. 1. MISSING THE MARK ON MULTIPLICATION Think about what a healthy church does in a typical week. We gather to worship. We go deep into God's Word. We connect in groups and ministries. We share the life of Christ with people who have yet to discover it. And yet a church can do all of those things really well and still miss the mark on multiplication. Multiplication was not a suggestion Jesus added at the end of His ministry. It was built into the DNA of the church from the beginning as a non-negotiable. He didn't send His disciples out to build crowds. He sent them out to make disciples. We are only here today because every generation before us had someone who owned that mission personally. Someone who didn't just attend. Someone who reproduced. Here is where it breaks down. There is a difference between working at McDonald's and owning a franchise. McDonald's employs thousands of people, many of them working their very first job. They are learning how to show up, follow a system, and be part of something larger than themselves. But that is not ownership. And you can see the difference immediately. Not every location feels the same. Not every team carries the culture the same way. The mission is present, but the ownership is inconsistent. Inconsistent ownership produces inconsistent results. We met Mary at our local McDonald's. She hosted us the moment we walked through the door. She made us feel welcomed. It stopped feeling like fast food. It felt like a dining experience. I would have assumed she owned the place if I didn't know better. She made us want to come back. Nobody told her to do that. She just did. Somewhere along the way, she stopped acting like an employee and started acting like an owner. That is the difference ownership makes. Our church does not have a participation problem. Our teams are full of people who show up and serve every week. But are they owners? Are they watching the mission take place from the sidelines or are they owning it? That's the difference between a church that grows and one that multiplies! 2. OWNING MULTIPLICATION Jesus didn't just give us a mission. He gave us the model. He was the first to... • AWAKEN: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17, ESV) • CONNECT: "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Matthew 4:19, ESV) • TRAIN: "If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:14, ESV) • SEND: "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation." (Mark 16:15, ESV) No, we did not invent the mission. We just inherited it! We also inherited the responsibility to own it the same way He did. Here is the deal. You can admire a mission. You can agree with a mission. You can show up for a mission, serve faithfully inside it, give generously to it, and still never own it. Admiration is not ownership. Agreement is not ownership. Ownership is when you take personal responsibility for what happens next. Last week at Easter we had 1,350 people on campus. Record attendance. And that number matters. But the story is always deeper than the crowd. It lives in the individual moments most people never see. Charlotte served that morning on the New Here team. She met a single mother with two kids who walked through our doors alone. Charlotte helped her find her way, got her kids checked in, and made her feel like she belonged. But she didn't stop there. She texted her that week to follow up. That mom shared that she was looking for a family. She came back this past Sunday. Charlotte greeted her again. And then watched her respond to the altar for salvation, met her at the altar to pray with her, then spent time with her afterward. That is owning the mission. That wasn't a pastor. That was a member of our church family who saw a moment and refused to let it pass. She didn't wait for someone else to follow up. She didn't assume the system would handle it. She took personal responsibility. And eternity was impacted because she did. That is what multiplication looks like at ground level. One person who owned it so completely that another person's life was permanently changed. "And what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also." (2 Timothy 2:2, ESV) Charlotte didn't just serve that morning. She reproduced the mission into someone who may now do the same for someone else. That is how it multiplies. One owner at a time. 3. MULTIPLICATION HAS A TIPPING POINT What percentage of fully invested leaders who truly own the mission does it take to move a church from growth into multiplication? Less than you think. Malcolm Gladwell explored this question in The Tipping Point. His central point was this. There is a moment in any movement where small, consistent shifts reach critical mass and everything changes. What looked like slow progress becomes unstoppable momentum almost overnight. And it does not require everyone. His research pointed to predictable thresholds. Ten to fifteen percent ownership starts influence. Twenty to twenty-five percent creates momentum. Thirty to forty percent becomes the culture. Fifty percent or more becomes unstoppable. That means if somewhere between twenty and thirty percent of our leaders and members truly own the mission, we cross into multiplication. We are not there yet. But we are close. Getting fully there requires two things from every leader in this room. First, every leader must recognize they are an owner of the mission. ACTS is not just what Grace World does as a church. It is what every leader does as an individual. We awaken new people. We connect them to the mission. We train them in how to live it. We send them into it. We do not just attend this church. We multiply it. We multiply Charlottes. Second, every leader must own the multiplication of other leaders. It is not enough to own the mission yourself. Ownership reproduces ownership. The goal is not to be a great owner. The goal is to raise one. I believe we are close to the tipping point. But we will not reach it accidentally. Each of us has to do more than admire what God is building. We have to own it. The Challenge I am not asking you to take on more responsibility, I am asking you to take on more ownership. This isn't Daniel and Jenna's church. It's your church. This isn't Pastor Daniel's vision. It's our vision. This isn't the responsibility of someone else, it's our responsibility. Before you leave today, answer these questions. With actual names. Who am I developing? Who am I preparing to deploy? If you can answer those questions with real names, you are an owner. Grace World will not multiply because the vision is compelling. It will multiply because leaders in this room decided to take personal responsibility for reproducing it. One investment at a time. That is how Jesus built it. That is how we build it. When leaders own the mission, the mission multiplies.. Discussion Questions 1. Is there a difference between how you serve the mission and how you own it? What does that gap look like practically? 2. Where in your ministry is growth happening but reproduction is not? What would it take to close that gap? 3. Who is one person in your sphere of influence you could begin intentionally developing in the next thirty days?

Support the showThank you for listening to this podcast! Follow Pastor James D. Gailliard on all social media @jdgailliard and get connected with Word Tabernacle Church by going to https://wordtab.net/ #EveryoneThriving 

What if some of the most important things in your life were never meant to stop with you? This week we explore a pattern woven throughout Scripture that starts small but carries the potential for far more than we often imagine. You may discover that God sees something bigger in your story than you've been able to see for yourself.

Alors que l'Europe est sous le coup d'une vague de chaleur d'une ampleur inédite, la deuxième en un mois, scientifiques et économistes préviennent : la catastrophe économique provoquée par le réchauffement climatique sera à la hauteur de la catastrophe écologique. Plus personne de sérieux ne conteste le consensus scientifique : le réchauffement climatique à l'œuvre depuis les débuts de la mondialisation entraîne une multiplication des événements climatiques extrêmes. Rien qu'en 2026, le monde a eu affaire à une canicule début janvier en Australie, des records de chaleur enregistrés en Amérique du Nord en mars, des températures extrêmes en Inde et au Pakistan au printemps, et désormais deux épisodes caniculaires coup sur coup en Europe. Les conséquences économiques à court terme sont évidentes : en période de chaleur extrême les gens sortent moins, la consommation baisse, de nombreux chantiers sont à l'arrêt, les hôpitaux sont sous tension, les écoles sont fermées obligeant les parents à les garder à la maison ou à les emmener au travail. De manière générale, la productivité s'effondre. D'après une étude d'Allianz Trade, les épisodes de chaleur extrême pourraient coûter 210 milliards d'euros à l'économie française d'ici la fin de la décennie. Des conséquences à long terme pour toutes les économies À plus long terme, les conséquences pourraient être bien pires. Mercredi 24 juin, Scientific Climate Ratings, une filiale de l'Edhec (une grande école française) a publié la première notation des risques climatiques. De la même manière que les agences de notation s'intéressent au risque financier des pays, à leur capacité à rembourser leurs emprunts, l'idée est de regarder cette fois le risque climatique et d'estimer l'impact économique du réchauffement climatique pour chacun de ces pays. Le Brésil y apparaît par exemple comme particulièrement exposé, en raison de sa dépendance au secteur agricole. L'agriculture est en effet l'une des activités les plus sensibles au réchauffement climatique : les sécheresses, les inondations, tous les événements climatiques extrêmes affectent les récoltes. Les auteurs estiment que le PIB brésilien pourrait décliner de presque 6 % d'ici à 2035 et même de 13 % d'ici à 2050 en raison du réchauffement climatique. La catastrophe économique sera à la hauteur de la catastrophe écologique Dans les pays du G20 les plus exposés, on peut aussi citer l'Arabie saoudite, l'Inde mais aussi les États-Unis. À l'autre bout du spectre, on trouve les pays plus froids, la Russie et le Royaume-Uni qui sont moins directement exposés mais qui verront eux aussi, quoi qu'il arrive, leur PIB reculer. La catastrophe économique sera à la hauteur de la catastrophe écologique : elle sera plus faible si nous arrivons à contenir le réchauffement de la planète à 1,5 degrés d'ici la fin du siècle (l'objectif fixé au moment de la signature de l'Accord de Paris en 2015). À l'inverse, si les mesures nécessaires ne sont pas prises à temps et que les températures augmentent de trois degrés, le cataclysme économique sera terrible. La trajectoire actuelle nous rapproche plutôt de ce deuxième scénario. La suite dépend de nous, de nos dirigeants, des politiques publiques, des entreprises. Il est encore temps d'agir, si ce n'est pas pour les générations futures, au moins pour le PIB.

In this main stage message from the 2025 Rooted Conference, Chelten Carter walks through Acts 11:19–30 and 13:1–3 to reveal how God multiplies His Church. He emphasizes that multiplication is inevitable because persecution cannot stop it, people will be perplexed by it, and God's power is displayed through it. This message encourages leaders to trust God's unstoppable work as He continues to grow His Church in both expected and unexpected ways. Chelten currently serves Progressive Baptist Church on the South Side of Chicago as the Director of Discipleship for the Youth and as a minister to the church at-large. A life-long learner, Chelten received his Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from Indiana University and continued to complete his Master of Divinity from Moody Theological Seminary. Chelten is married to his beautiful and brilliant bride Emmanuella Carter of 8 years and loves to play basketball and read. Rooted Resources: Luke & Acts: A ROOTED YEARLONG CURRICULUM  Three Reasons to Teach Acts in Your Youth Group by Tucker Fleming Youth Ministry in the Power of the Spirit by Seth Stewart @therootedministry on Instagram for more updates  Register for Rooted 2026 Conference in Nashville   Hosted by: Danny Kwon, author of Teenagers and Mental Health; Becca Heck, M. Div. from Reformed Theological Seminary; Isaiah Marshall, Rooted's Director of Ministry Development; and Josh Hussung, M. Div. in Pastor Studies from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

You can be busy. You can even be growing. And still not be multiplying. In this episode, Cynthia talks honestly about what it actually costs to move from addition to multiplication — not the theory, but the moment you have to let go of a system you built, invested in, and were proud of, because it wasn't producing what it looked like it should. She walks through two patterns many leaders don't even realize they're still running on: a structure built for slow, careful addition, and a discipleship habit — going deep with one person, alone — that can quietly block the very multiplication it's meant to produce. This works the same whether you're leading a congregation in the Midwest or training leaders in a movement context overseas. The system is just dressed differently. Grab the free 3 Mindset Shifts guide at: resources.daretomultiply.com/3mindsetshifts.

Do your students freeze when faced with multiplication facts? Or perhaps they're relying solely on memorisation without really understanding what multiplication means?In this episode of Rainbow Skies for Teachers, we're diving into one of the most important building blocks of math: multiplication fluency. We unpack what fluency actually looks like in the classroom, why so many students struggle with multiplication, and how we can support them through engaging, hands-on learning experiences.Rather than focusing on speed and rote learning alone, we're exploring how students can develop deep understanding, flexible thinking, and confidence with multiplication facts. From practical classroom strategies to game-based learning ideas, this episode is packed with simple ways to make multiplication practice meaningful and enjoyable.In this episode, we discuss:What multiplication fluency really means (and why it's much more than memorising times tables)Common reasons students struggle with multiplicationHow mathematical language supports deeper understandingHands-on activities that help students visualise multiplication conceptsWhy games are one of the most effective tools for building fluencySimple ways to incorporate short, consistent fluency practice into your daily routineBrain break activities that reinforce multiplication while boosting engagementHow to build confidence by focusing on understanding before speedMultiplication fluency isn't built through pressure, timed tests, or endless worksheets. It develops when students have opportunities to explore patterns, use a variety of strategies, and engage in regular practice that feels achievable and fun.When we prioritise understanding first, confidence naturally follows.There are rainbows ahead,Alisha and AshleighResources mentioned in this episode: Free Flip it Multiplication GameOur fave Multiplication games blog postAPPLE PODCAST | SPOTIFY  | AMAZONLet's hear from you! Text us!

Discipleship is the most-used word in the church right now, and almost no one can define it. Most of what we call discipleship isn't. It's a good thing that got mistaken for the whole thing. Bible study, Sunday attendance, serving, a powerful moment at a conference. All real. None of them, on their own, is discipleship.Jeremy and Alex walk through the activities churches most often confuse with discipleship and explain what each one actually is: a piece, a vehicle, a starting point, but not the destination. Then they give you the definition that ties it together, so you can tell the difference in your own group.In this episode:• A plain definition of "disciple" and "discipleship" you can put on the wall and use this week• Why a missing definition quietly sets your whole group off course• The ownership principle, and the underground-church story behind it• What discipleship is not, and why good things like Bible study get mistaken for itWant a free, proven process for making disciples who make disciples? Start at ordinarymovement.com.Ordinary Movement is a discipleship platform that equips men and women to be disciples who make disciples. Our focus is on supporting small groups led by ordinary/everyday Christians. We have specialized discipleship tracks that center around Intimacy with Jesus, Intentional Relationships, and Multiplication. Groups are designed for individuals to easily engage in leading groups.Ready to be a disciple who makes disciples?If so, come and join us!Visit ordinarymovement.com to learn more!#discipleship #disciplemaking #disciple

Message from June 14, 10:00 A.M. service.

What does it actually take to build a church that grows and sends? In this episode of Breaking Barriers, we sit down with Brian Frye from the North American Mission Board (NAMB) during a live NAMB event — an all-access experience that brought 170 leaders from 50 churches across the country. We unpack the 5 cultural pillars behind Mercy Hill's sending and multiplication strategy, why church growth and church planting must go hand in hand, how to overcome "growth guilt" that's holding your church back, what it means to build a sending culture from day one, and how to structure your staff around a multiplication flywheel.⁠https://www.namb.net/

What if happiness wasn't something you chased… but something you could actually engineer?In this powerful and deeply moving episode, I sit down with Thayne Martin—executive, entrepreneur, motivational speaker, podcast host, and founder of It's Pure Love—to explore his groundbreaking framework: The Equation of Life and Abundant Happiness (ELAH™).Thayne's story is one of profound transformation.After enduring severe childhood abuse, he struggled with depression, PTSD, dissociative identity disorder, and ADHD. His pain became so overwhelming that he attempted suicide multiple times. But everything changed after a near-death experience—when a reaction to medication caused him to drown in his own swimming pool.What happened next shifted everything.When Thayne regained consciousness, he describes experiencing a level of clarity, gratitude, and unconditional love unlike anything he had ever known. That moment became the catalyst for a new way of understanding the mind, emotions, and human behavior—and ultimately led to the creation of ELAH™ and eX eM NeuroConditioning™.In this episode, we explore how these tools can help you break free from limiting patterns and intentionally create a life filled with connection, purpose, and joy.In this episode, we discuss:Thayne's powerful journey from trauma and despair to healing and purposeHow a near-death experience transformed his mind, heart, and lifeThe Equation of Life and Abundant Happiness (ELAH™) and how it worksUsing simple “math-like” operations—Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication, Division, and Gratitude—to guide your lifeHow your brain is wired to reinforce whatever you repeatedly think and feelThe role of neuroplasticity in reshaping thoughts, emotions, and behaviorsWhat eX eM NeuroConditioning™ is and how it accelerates transformationHow emotional experiences influence brain chemistry and behaviorThe importance of awareness, connection, and gratitude in healingWhy real, lasting change comes from experience—not just informationWhat is ELAH™?The Equation of Life and Abundant Happiness (ELAH™) is a simple yet powerful framework that helps you organize your thoughts, emotions, and relationships using five symbolic operations:Addition – What do you want more of in your life?Subtraction – What do you need to release or let go of?Multiplication – What can you amplify and grow?Division – What can you share with others?Gratitude (=) – The equal sign that brings everything into alignmentThis elegant system makes personal growth practical, memorable, and easy to apply in everyday life.A Powerful ReminderHealing doesn't have to be complicated.Sometimes, the most profound transformations come from the simplest shifts—what you focus on, what you feel, and what you choose to reinforce.Learn More About ThayneTo learn more about Thayne Martin and his work, visit:

In this episode of the Church Planter Podcast, Peyton Jones and Pete Mitchell talk about why most churches never multiply—and why the issue usually starts long before a church is ready to plant again.Peyton explains that churches can do a lot of things right and still fail to multiply if they are not mobilizing people on mission. Instead of building everything around Sunday gatherings, leaders need to slow down, invest in people, call out gifts, and help everyday believers take real steps into disciple-making.The conversation unpacks the difference between addition and multiplication, why mobilization has to come first, and how pastors can begin creating a culture where people are equipped, sent, and ready to lead others.If you want your church to move beyond gathering people and start multiplying disciples, this episode will help you focus on what matters most.Resources and Links Mentioned in this Episode:Simplify Church: simplifychurch.comNewBreed TrainingThanks for listening to the Church Planter Podcast. We're here to help you go where no one else is going and do what no one else is doing to reach people no one else is reaching.Make sure to review and subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast service to help us connect with more church planters.

What does it actually take to build a church that grows and sends? In this episode of Breaking Barriers, we sit down with Brian Frye from the North American Mission Board (NAMB) during a live NAMB event — an all-access experience that brought 170 leaders from 50 churches across the country. We unpack the 5 cultural pillars behind Mercy Hill's sending and multiplication strategy, why church growth and church planting must go hand in hand, how to overcome "growth guilt" that's holding your church back, what it means to build a sending culture from day one, and how to structure your staff around a multiplication flywheel.https://www.namb.net/

In this episode of the KC Underground podcast, Brian and Cory wrap up their series on the Disciple-Maker Pathway by exploring what is formed in us in the phase of multiplication. They reflect on the surprising mix of joy, loss, and resilience that comes with releasing others, and how multiplication forces a deeper surrender, letting go of control, pride, and the need to be “the one.”Drawing from personal stories, Scripture, and the lived reality of pursuing an audacious vision for citywide gospel flourishing, we highlight how this phase forms a deeper dependence on Jesus, a renewed imagination for what God is doing, and a commitment to keep pressing forward even when growth feels slow or unseen.This conversation invites you to embrace the tension and beauty of multiplication, trusting that as we release, God is forming something far greater than we could build on our own.

Send us Fan Mail This week Greg sat down with George Williams. George is a former Pastor and now the Director of Multiplication for Open Bible. He was also Greg's former pastor for years. Greg & George discussed his testimony, as well as his journey from a centrist charismatic to now a Christian Nationalist and the pivotal moment that opened his eyes. They discussed the 19th Amendment, theonomy, and the death penalty, and also touched on the insanity of pure libertarianism. Enjoy! Dominion Wealth Strategists are the only Kingdom minded company that you need to use. Set up a free consultation here today! You need to protect your sword! Beautiful, classic, and one of a kind! Design your bible rebind from Deus Vult today! 10% for all Dead Men listeners with the code "DEADMANWALKING" Facebook: Dead Men Walking PodcastYoutube: Dead Men Walking PodcastInstagram: @DeadMenWalkingPodcastTwitter X: @RealDMWPodcastExclusive Content: PubTV AppSupport the show Check out out the Dead Men Walking snarky merch HERE! Build something for God's glory through Covenant Real Estate! Greg Moore Jr. can help you buy, sell, and invest! Call him at (734) 731-GREG or visit www.covenant.realestate 10% off a rebound bible from Deus Vult Rebinding with the code DEADMANWALKING

Send us Fan MailThis week Greg sat down with George Williams. George is a former Pastor and now the Director of Multiplication for Open Bible. He was also Greg's former pastor for years. Greg & George discussed his testimony, as well as his journey from a centrist charismatic to now a Christian Nationalist and the pivotal moment that opened his eyes. They discussed the 19th Amendment, theonomy, and the death penalty, and also touched on the insanity of pure libertarianism. Enjoy! Dominion Wealth Strategists are the only Kingdom minded company that you need to use. Set up a free consultation here today! You need to protect your sword! Beautiful, classic, and one of a kind! Design your bible rebind from Deus Vult today! 10% for all Dead Men listeners with the code "DEADMANWALKING" Covenant Real Estate: "Confidence from Contract to Close" Facebook: Dead Men Walking PodcastYoutube: Dead Men Walking PodcastInstagram: @DeadMenWalkingPodcastTwitter X: @RealDMWPodcastExclusive Content: PubTV App