Podcast appearances and mentions of Billy Graham

rWotD Episode 3376: Black Mariah Welcome to random Wiki of the Day, your journey through Wikipedia's vast and varied content, one random article at a time.The random article for Saturday, 1 August 2026, is Black Mariah.Black Mariah (Mariah Dillard) is a supervillain appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character is usually depicted as an enemy of Luke Cage. She was created by Billy Graham, George Tuska, and Steve Englehart, and first appeared in Luke Cage, Hero for Hire #5 (January 1973).Alfre Woodard portrayed Mariah Dillard in the series Luke Cage, set in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.This recording reflects the Wikipedia text as of 01:10 UTC on Saturday, 1 August 2026.For the full current version of the article, see Black Mariah on Wikipedia.This podcast uses content from Wikipedia under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License.Visit our archives at wikioftheday.com and subscribe to stay updated on new episodes.Follow us on Mastodon at @wikioftheday@masto.ai.Also check out Curmudgeon's Corner, a current events podcast.Until next time, I'm neural Danielle.

„A teraz, čo očakávať, Pane? K Tebe sa nesie moja nádej.“ (Ž 39:8) More udieralo na skaly veľkými, mohutnými vlnami. Blesky osvecovali oblohu, hromy burácali, fúkal silný vietor. Malý vtáčik však tuho spal uprostred trhliny v skalách s hlavou schovanou pohodlne pod svojim krídlom. Toto je pokoj − vedieť spať v búrke! V Kristovi môžeme žiť uvoľnení a v pokoji napriek nástrahám, zmätku a spletitosti života. I keď zúri búrka, naše srdcia môžu byť pokojné. Napriek okolnostiam nakoniec nachádzame pokoj. Modlitba dňa Ďakujem, drahý Pane, za nádej, ktorú mám v tvojej pretrvávajúcej láske, ktorá ma obklopuje. Billy Graham

Today, on Karl and Crew, we wrapped up our weekly theme, “The Goodness of God.” Dr. Bradley Baurain, a Professor at Moody Bible Institute, explored how God’s goodness transforms the way believers trust Him, love others, and reflect His character in everyday life. Anne Graham Lotz, one of the five most influential evangelists of her generation, reflected on her father’s gospel legacy, Billy Graham, and encouraged believers to share Christ faithfully in every season. The Vice President and Head of Moody Global Media, Wes Ward, reflected on how Moody Radio is embracing digital media to expand the reach of the gospel while remaining firmly rooted in God’s Word. We then turned to our listeners on the phone line and asked, "What would you like to hear more or add to Moody Radio?” You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Wes Ward [ 15:51 ]Call Segment [ 24:00 ]Dr. Bradley Baurain [ 45:25 ]Anne Graham Lotz [ 53:30 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we wrapped up our weekly theme, “The Goodness of God.” Dr. Bradley Baurain, a Professor at Moody Bible Institute, explored how God’s goodness transforms the way believers trust Him, love others, and reflect His character in everyday life. Anne Graham Lotz, one of the five most influential evangelists of her generation, reflected on her father’s gospel legacy, Billy Graham, and encouraged believers to share Christ faithfully in every season. The Vice President and Head of Moody Global Media, Wes Ward, reflected on how Moody Radio is embracing digital media to expand the reach of the gospel while remaining firmly rooted in God’s Word. We then turned to our listeners on the phone line and asked, "What would you like to hear more or add to Moody Radio?” You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Wes Ward [ 15:51 ]Call Segment [ 24:00 ]Dr. Bradley Baurain [ 45:25 ]Anne Graham Lotz [ 53:30 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we wrapped up our weekly theme, “The Goodness of God.” Dr. Bradley Baurain, a Professor at Moody Bible Institute, explored how God’s goodness transforms the way believers trust Him, love others, and reflect His character in everyday life. Anne Graham Lotz, one of the five most influential evangelists of her generation, reflected on her father’s gospel legacy, Billy Graham, and encouraged believers to share Christ faithfully in every season. The Vice President and Head of Moody Global Media, Wes Ward, reflected on how Moody Radio is embracing digital media to expand the reach of the gospel while remaining firmly rooted in God’s Word. We then turned to our listeners on the phone line and asked, "What would you like to hear more or add to Moody Radio?” You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Wes Ward [ 15:51 ]Call Segment [ 24:00 ]Dr. Bradley Baurain [ 45:25 ]Anne Graham Lotz [ 53:30 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we wrapped up our weekly theme, “The Goodness of God.” Dr. Bradley Baurain, a Professor at Moody Bible Institute, explored how God’s goodness transforms the way believers trust Him, love others, and reflect His character in everyday life. Anne Graham Lotz, one of the five most influential evangelists of her generation, reflected on her father’s gospel legacy, Billy Graham, and encouraged believers to share Christ faithfully in every season. The Vice President and Head of Moody Global Media, Wes Ward, reflected on how Moody Radio is embracing digital media to expand the reach of the gospel while remaining firmly rooted in God’s Word. We then turned to our listeners on the phone line and asked, "What would you like to hear more or add to Moody Radio?” You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Wes Ward [ 15:51 ]Call Segment [ 24:00 ]Dr. Bradley Baurain [ 45:25 ]Anne Graham Lotz [ 53:30 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “The Goodness of God.” Dr. Michael Vanlaningham, retired Professor of Bible at the Moody Bible Institute, unpacked how God’s sovereignty and goodness provide hope in the midst of suffering, reminding listeners that even life’s hardest trials are never outside His care. The Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary, Dr. Wayne Grudem, unpacked the difference between the visible and invisible church, emphasized the marks of genuine faith, and encouraged believers to abide in Christ and walk daily in the power of the Holy Spirit. One of the five most influential evangelists of her generation, Anne Graham Lotz, reflected on her father’s gospel legacy, Billy Graham, and encouraged believers to share Christ faithfully in every season. We then turned to our listeners on the phone line and asked, "How did the goodness of God amaze you?" How You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Call Segment [ 00:49 ]Dr. Michael Vanlaningham [ 25:01 ]Dr. Wayne Grudem [ 39:02 ]Anne Graham Lotz [ 52:02 ]Make It a Metaphor [ 1:01:45 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “The Goodness of God.” Dr. Michael Vanlaningham, retired Professor of Bible at the Moody Bible Institute, unpacked how God’s sovereignty and goodness provide hope in the midst of suffering, reminding listeners that even life’s hardest trials are never outside His care. The Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary, Dr. Wayne Grudem, unpacked the difference between the visible and invisible church, emphasized the marks of genuine faith, and encouraged believers to abide in Christ and walk daily in the power of the Holy Spirit. One of the five most influential evangelists of her generation, Anne Graham Lotz, reflected on her father’s gospel legacy, Billy Graham, and encouraged believers to share Christ faithfully in every season. We then turned to our listeners on the phone line and asked, "How did the goodness of God amaze you?" How You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Call Segment [ 00:49 ]Dr. Michael Vanlaningham [ 25:01 ]Dr. Wayne Grudem [ 39:02 ]Anne Graham Lotz [ 52:02 ]Make It a Metaphor [ 1:01:45 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “The Goodness of God.” Dr. Michael Vanlaningham, retired Professor of Bible at the Moody Bible Institute, unpacked how God’s sovereignty and goodness provide hope in the midst of suffering, reminding listeners that even life’s hardest trials are never outside His care. The Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary, Dr. Wayne Grudem, unpacked the difference between the visible and invisible church, emphasized the marks of genuine faith, and encouraged believers to abide in Christ and walk daily in the power of the Holy Spirit. One of the five most influential evangelists of her generation, Anne Graham Lotz, reflected on her father’s gospel legacy, Billy Graham, and encouraged believers to share Christ faithfully in every season. We then turned to our listeners on the phone line and asked, "How did the goodness of God amaze you?" How You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Call Segment [ 00:49 ]Dr. Michael Vanlaningham [ 25:01 ]Dr. Wayne Grudem [ 39:02 ]Anne Graham Lotz [ 52:02 ]Make It a Metaphor [ 1:01:45 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “The Goodness of God.” Dr. Michael Vanlaningham, retired Professor of Bible at the Moody Bible Institute, unpacked how God’s sovereignty and goodness provide hope in the midst of suffering, reminding listeners that even life’s hardest trials are never outside His care. The Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary, Dr. Wayne Grudem, unpacked the difference between the visible and invisible church, emphasized the marks of genuine faith, and encouraged believers to abide in Christ and walk daily in the power of the Holy Spirit. One of the five most influential evangelists of her generation, Anne Graham Lotz, reflected on her father’s gospel legacy, Billy Graham, and encouraged believers to share Christ faithfully in every season. We then turned to our listeners on the phone line and asked, "How did the goodness of God amaze you?" How You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Call Segment [ 00:49 ]Dr. Michael Vanlaningham [ 25:01 ]Dr. Wayne Grudem [ 39:02 ]Anne Graham Lotz [ 52:02 ]Make It a Metaphor [ 1:01:45 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After a mission trip to a Navajo reservation, Brad Hutchcraft felt God calling him to minister to Native American youth so they could experience the hope that can only be found in Christ. Today, Brad is the director of On Eagles' Wings, a ministry that shares the love of Jesus Christ with Native American youth across the United States and Canada. Listen as Brad shares how God changed the course of his life, how these young believers are reaching their own communities with the Gospel, and why Brad knows that “as long as there's breath, there is hope.” Learn more about Brad's ministry On Eagles' Wings.  Connect with us through email at gps@billygraham.org or on Facebook at Billy Graham Radio.If you'd like to know more about beginning a relationship with Jesus Christ, or deepening the faith you already have, visit FindPeacewithGod.net. If you'd like to pray with someone, call our Billy Graham 24/7 Prayer Line at 855-255-7729. 

One of the greatest evangelists of all time was Billy Graham. He held his first crusade in 1947, and his final crusade was in 2005. That's nearly sixty years of ministry! And even after his retirement, God still used Billy Graham to further the Gospel to all corners of the Earth. In today's message, Pastor Jeff reminds you that the work of the Gospel is never done, and as long as you have breath, there is something that you can do for God's Kingdom! The harvest is great, but the workers are few.

„Blahoslavený človek, ktorý vždy zostáva v bázni, kto si však zatvrdzuje srdce, upadá do nešťastia.“ (Pr 28:14) Všetci kresťania veria v Boha, ale mnohí z nich majú na Neho veľmi málo času. Na to, aby sa začali venovať čítaniu Biblie, modlitbe a láskavému správaniu sa k svojim blížnym, sú príliš zaneprázdnení každodennými vecami. Mnohí z nich stratili zápal a horlivosť v nasledovaní Pána Ježiša. Ak sa ich spýtame, či sú kresťania, pravdepodobne odpovedia: „Myslím, že som,“ alebo „Dúfam.“ Možno chodia do kostola na Veľkú noc, Vianoce a počas ďalších špeciálnych príležitostí, ale inak majú na Boha veľmi málo času. Boha zo svojho života vytlačili. Biblia nás varuje pred zanedbávaním duchovného života. Môžeme si zatvrdiť srdce a uškodiť sami sebe, ak slabne náš hlad po Božích veciach. Takýto hlad by sme mali pociťovať neustále, pretože nás vedie k túžbe mať spoločenstvo s Bohom. Len v Ňom nájdeme pokoj pre svoje srdce. Modlitba dňa Aj dnes mám hlad a túžim Ťa poznať viac, Pane. Billy Graham

In this heartfelt conversation, Ginny Yurich sits down with beloved Bible teacher Anne Graham Lotz (daughter of Billy Graham) and her daughter, Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright, to explore the timeless story of Joseph through their new book, God Won't Leave You There. Together they unpack what Joseph's life teaches us about trusting God through unexpected hardship, betrayal, seasons of waiting, and life's sudden detours. From devastating setbacks to remarkable redemption, Anne and Rachel-Ruth share deeply personal stories of cancer, heart attacks, and family trials, revealing how God remained faithful in their darkest moments. They discuss the importance of maintaining a strong work ethic, serving others even while suffering, choosing forgiveness over bitterness, and embracing the character God builds during seasons we would never choose for ourselves. The conversation also offers practical encouragement for parents, touching on favoritism, speaking blessings over our children, and creating a family legacy rooted in faith. It's a rich, hope-filled discussion that reminds us that no matter how long the waiting lasts, God is always working behind the scenes, and He never leaves us where we are. Get a copy of God Won't Leave You There: Joseph's Story here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Have a comment? Send us a text! (We read all of them but can't reply). Email us: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.comHow did Christian music become one of the most powerful forces shaping evangelical identity and politics? Leah Payne, professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You, joins Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram to explain why contemporary Christian music is more than a soundtrack. It is a business, a discipleship tool, and a form of cultural power. Payne traces CCM from Pentecostal and revivalist roots to Billy Graham, the Jesus Movement, Amy Grant, DC Talk, purity culture, worship music, and even January 6. She argues that music often forms people more deeply than doctrine because it teaches Christians what to fear, what to defend, what feels sacred, and who belongs. This conversation helps listeners see how evangelical politics was shaped not only by sermons, denominations, and elections, but by songs, celebrities, markets, mothers, youth culture, and worship.Guest BioLeah Payne, PhD, is professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and faculty lead for the Doctor of Ministry in Faith & Cultural Engagement program. Her work focuses on American religion, evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, popular culture, music, media, gender, and politics. She is the author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music, published by Oxford University Press, and co-host of Rock That Doesn't Roll, a Public Radio Exchange podcast about Christian rock and its listeners. In this conversation, Payne helps explain how CCM, worship music, Christian celebrity, purity culture, and evangelical media shaped American religious identity and political life.Book MentionedGod Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah PayneBookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780197555248Relevant Links & ResourcesLeah PayneURL: https://www.drleahpayne.com/ Support Sarah Stankorb's work and preorder Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion, Releases September 15, 2026.  Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9798889837091Website: https://www.sarahstankorb.com/Support the showKeep the conversation going.Want to learn more about Faithful Politics, suggest a future guest, or connect with us directly?Visit our website:faithfulpoliticspodcast.comBrowse our bookstore, featuring books from many of our guests:faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/bookstoreSupport the show and help us keep these conversations going:patreon.com/cw/FaithfulPoliticsSubscribe for behind-the-scenes content, reflections, and updates:faithfulpolitics.substack.comContact the hosts:Josh Burtram, Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpolitics.comWill Wright, Political Host: Will@faithfulpolitics.comFollow Faithful Politics:Instagram: faithful_politicsFacebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast

„… horlil za mňa…“ (4M 25:11) Je zvláštne, že svet pripúšťa horlivosť v každej oblasti, len nie v duchovnej. Svet uznáva a chápe emócie a zápal pre niečo, pokiaľ sa to netýka náboženstva − v takom prípade sa človek stáva podozrivou osobou. Vzťah k Pánovi Ježišovi nám dáva slobodu konať veci, ktoré v očiach iných vyzerajú zvláštne, hoci si títo budú myslieť, že sme sa zbláznili a „zašli sme príliš ďaleko.“ Z histórie misie poznáme ľudí, ako napríklad William Carey, Hudson Taylor, John Paton, David Livingstone. Všetkých z nich považovali ich súčasníci za bláznov. Pohodlie života nedokáže pochopiť a prijať skutočnú oddanosť k Pánu Bohu, pretavenú do praktického života a skutkov. Ak ale uvažujeme ďalej – kto je skutočne blázon? A predsa, keď vezmeme všetko do úvahy, kto je bláznom? Nie sú to práve tí samoľúbi, do seba zahľadení a pohodlní ľudia, ktorí sú v konečnom dôsledku vyčerpaní a unavení pôžitkárstvom, pohodlím a samými sebou? Modlitba dňa Dovoľ mi znovu sa Ti oddať Pane Ježišu, chcem Ti byť úplne odovzdaný. Billy Graham

Attorney Boz Tchividjian joins Frank Schaeffer for an honest conversation about abuse inside churches, institutional cover-ups, Christian nationalism, and the work of helping survivors seek justice.As Billy Graham's grandson, Boz understands evangelical culture from the inside. As a lawyer, he has spent years holding institutions accountable when they fail the people they were meant to protect.Together they discuss celebrity pastors, patriarchal theology, clergy abuse, politics, and why accountability remains essential for any community that claims to value truth._____LINKShttps://bozlawpa.comI have had the pleasure of talking to some of the leading authors, artists, activists, and change-makers of our time on this podcast, and I want to personally thank you for subscribing, listening, and sharing 100-plus episodes over 100,000 times.Please subscribe to this Podcast, In Conversation… with Frank Schaeffer, on your favorite platform, and to my Substack, It Has to Be Said. Thanks! Every subscription helps create, build, sustain and put voice to this movement for truth. Subscribe to It Has to Be Said. The Gospel of Zip will be released in print and on Amazon Kindle, and as a full video on YouTube and Substack that you can watch or listen to for free.Support the show_____In Conversation… with Frank Schaeffer is a production of the George Bailey Morality in Public Life Fellowship. It is hosted by Frank Schaeffer, author of The Gospel of Zip.Learn more at https://www.thegospelofzip.com/Follow Frank on Substack, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Threads, TikTok, and YouTube.https://frankschaeffer.substack.comhttps://www.facebook.com/frank.schaeffer.16https://twitter.com/Frank_Schaefferhttps://www.instagram.com/frank_schaeffer_arthttps://www.threads.net/@frank_schaeffer_arthttps://www.tiktok.com/@frank_schaefferhttps://www.youtube.com/c/FrankSchaefferYouTubeIn Conversation… with Frank Schaeffer Podcast

How can God's Word reveal His character to us in seasons of suffering? What can the stories of those in Scripture teach us as we walk through the valleys of pain?Authors and Bible teachers Anne Graham Lotz and Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright were raised on a firm foundation of faith and have spent their lives passionately teaching and sharing God's Word. Yet it was through their own personal trials—Anne's sudden loss of her husband and then her father, evangelist Billy Graham, as well as her cancer diagnosis, and Rachel-Ruth's series of heart-related health challenges and subsequent PTSD—that God illuminated powerful lessons about suffering through the story of Joseph.Drawing from these experiences, Anne and Rachel-Ruth share the wisdom and hope found in their latest book, God Won't Leave You There: Joseph's Story.In this conversation, Davey, Anne, and Rachel-Ruth discuss how our deepest messages often emerge from our own stories, how to overcome bitterness, and how to discover what God wants to teach us through our pain.If you find yourself in a pit like Joseph, wondering where God is, this episode will remind you that no matter what you're facing, God won't leave you there. Website: https://www.annegrahamlotz.org/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annegrahamlotz/ and https://www.instagram.com/rachelruthlotzwright/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnneGrahamLotz and https://www.facebook.com/RachelRuthLW/ Book: God Won't Leave You There: Joseph's Story https://amzn.to/4uKbSbh Not living the story you expected? Pain changes us but doesn't have to define us. Discover where you are on your healing journey and get a personalized pathway for your next steps: nothingiswasted.com/starthere Looking for help in navigating the valley of pain and trauma? Our Nothing is Wasted coaches can help: nothingiswasted.com/coaching Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See which questions to ask when sharing the Gospel here. --------Thank you for listening! Your support of Joni and Friends helps make this show possible. Joni and Friends envisions a world where every person with a disability finds hope, dignity, and their place in the body of Christ. Become part of the global movement today at www.joniandfriends.org. Find more encouragement on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube.

Guest host Krish Dhanam continues his reflection on America's 250th anniversary by asking how Christians and conservatives should exercise responsibility in a divided culture. Drawing on lessons from his longtime mentor Zig Ziglar and the examples of Billy and Ruth Graham, Dhanam describes an approach he calls authoritative governance: honoring legitimate law, defending moral absolutes, and accepting personal responsibility. He argues that truth cannot be rewritten by public opinion, but conviction must still be expressed with grace, compassion, and a desire to persuade rather than merely defeat an opponent. Citizenship, he says, requires more than voting or complaining about national politics. It calls for faithful local service, intentional mentoring, community involvement, and a willingness to act when silence would be easier. Through stories from prison ministry, public speaking, and Christian apologetics, Dhanam challenges listeners to consider the legacy they are building and whether they will one day say, "I wish I had" or "I'm glad I did."

Guest host Krish Dhanam continues his reflection on America's 250th anniversary by asking how Christians and conservatives should exercise responsibility in a divided culture. Drawing on lessons from his longtime mentor Zig Ziglar and the examples of Billy and Ruth Graham, Dhanam describes an approach he calls authoritative governance: honoring legitimate law, defending moral absolutes, and accepting personal responsibility. He argues that truth cannot be rewritten by public opinion, but conviction must still be expressed with grace, compassion, and a desire to persuade rather than merely defeat an opponent. Citizenship, he says, requires more than voting or complaining about national politics. It calls for faithful local service, intentional mentoring, community involvement, and a willingness to act when silence would be easier. Through stories from prison ministry, public speaking, and Christian apologetics, Dhanam challenges listeners to consider the legacy they are building and whether they will one day say, "I wish I had" or "I'm glad I did."

„Blahoslavený muž, ktorému Pán nepočíta hriech.“ (R 4:8) Pred mnohými rokmi ma policajti zastavili kvôli prekročeniu povolenej rýchlosti v obytnej zóne. Na súde som priznal svoju vinu. Sudca bol priateľský a bolo na ňom vidieť, že mu je táto situácia nepríjemná. Nakoniec som ale dostal pokutu desať dolárov. Ak by ma nechal odísť bez pokuty, nebolo by to spravodlivé. Pokutu musel niekto zaplatiť. Buď ja, alebo niekto iný. Spravodlivosť koná v súlade s láskou. Boh lásky je zároveň aj Bohom spravodlivosti. Je to preto, lebo Boh miluje byť spravodlivý. Jeho spravodlivosť a Jeho láska sú vzájomne vyvážené a Jeho skutky a prejavy tak lásky, ako aj spravodlivosti sú zmysluplné. Ak by Boh nepotrestal ľudí, ktorí páchajú zlo, Jeho láska by nebola skutočná. Jeho súd s páchateľmi zla, ktorých oddelí od spravodlivých, je prejavom opravdivej lásky. Potrebujeme sa pozerať na kríž a uvedomiť si temnú stránku Božieho rozsudku. Vyniesol ho pre nesmiernu lásku k nám. Obetoval svojho Syna, aby sme rozsudok nemuseli znášať my. Modlitba dňa Ty si najvyšší sudca, všemohúci Bože, a ja Ti ďakujem, že hoci som si nezaslúžil odpustenie, môj rozsudok bol zaplatený Tvojím milovaným Synom, Ježišom Kristom. Billy Graham

What tables would Jesus turn over in your life? In this powerful Bible message, we explore Jesus' first public words: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17). Through the lives of David, Samson, Saul, and Billy Graham, this sermon reveals how small compromises can grow into spiritual blindness—and how genuine repentance restores our walk with God. Discover why Jesus cleansed the temple in Matthew 21:12-14, what it means to become a fully devoted follower of Christ, and why repentance is not condemnation but an invitation to freedom and renewed purpose. Bible passages featured: Matthew 4:17-22 Matthew 21:12-14 Psalm 51 Acts 13:22 2 Samuel 11-12 Judges 13-16 Revelation 3:15-19 2 Chronicles 7:14 Key Topics: Repentance and spiritual renewal Hidden sin and compromise Following Jesus wholeheartedly The life of King David Samson and spiritual compromise Saul's partial obedience Cleansing the temple Biblical discipleship Christian living Faith, holiness, and restoration

“Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe.” (1 Corinthians 1:21 NLT) As we look back in history and see the names of Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, and others, we may be tempted to pray for the Lord to raise up a similar firebrand to ignite a much-needed revival in our nation today. But the Bible makes it clear that revival—the spread of the Good News of Jesus Christ—is not something that’s best left to the experts. Who’s called to preach the gospel? According to God’s Word, it isn’t just pastors, teachers, evangelists, and missionaries. It’s any person, anywhere, who names the name of Christ. Jesus Himself gave us our marching orders when He said, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you” (Matthew 28:19–20 NLT). Jesus called His followers to share the gospel. And He called us to share it everywhere. In another variation of what we call the Great Commission, Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone” (Mark 16:15 NLT). We can localize this by saying, “Go into all your world and preach the gospel. Go to all your family, to your workplace, and to your neighborhood. Go into your sphere of influence.” In other words, lay the groundwork for localized revivals. Why are we to do this? Because God’s primary way of reaching people is through people. The apostle Paul wrote that “since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe” (1 Corinthians 1:21 NLT). God has chosen to communicate His gospel primarily through us as we share it verbally. That’s not to say there isn’t a place for living the gospel. In fact, living the gospel—letting Christ’s light shine through us—effectively earns us the right to share the gospel. But we shouldn’t merely rely on our silent example. We need to look for opportunities to specifically articulate the gospel message to others. The apostle Paul also wrote, “And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?” (Romans 10:14 NLT). We should be doing this because we care, because we have a burden for people who don’t know the Lord. As individual believers, we may not be able to plan a revival—not in the broadest sense of the word, at least. But we can launch individual or localized revivals in the lives of others by sharing the gospel as Jesus called us to do. Reflection question: Where would be a good starting point for igniting a localized revival in your sphere of influence? Discuss Today's Devo in Harvest Discipleship! Join Greg Laurie for the Annual Jesus Revolution Baptism at Pirate's Cove on July 18. — The audio production of the podcast "Greg Laurie: Daily Devotions" utilizes Generative AI technology. This allows us to deliver consistent, high-quality content while preserving Harvest's mission to "know God and make Him known." All devotional content is written and owned by Pastor Greg Laurie. Listen to the Greg Laurie Podcast Become a Harvest PartnerSupport the show: https://harvest.org/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I greet you in Jesus' precious name! It is Thursday morning, the 16th of July, 2026, and this is your friend, Angus Buchan, with a thought for today. We go to the Book of Deuteronomy 20:4: “…for the Lord your God is He who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.” We then go to Psalm 20:7: “Some trust in chariots, and some in horses; But we will remember the name of the Lord our God.”Oh, I want to encourage you this morning. Maybe you are facing a giant in your life. It might be your health. Maybe you have just been told by the doctor, “There is nothing more we can do for you. Just go home and make yourself comfortable because you are not going to live.” We don't receive that because we trust in the Lord, not in our own abilities! Maybe it is a crop you planted and you are expecting a good yield, but your neighbours are telling you you are in big trouble because nothing is going to happen. El Niño, the drought is on its way. Don't accept it! Remember, the Lord says He will fight for you and He will see it come to pass. I cannot encourage you enough to trust in the Lord.We have got a saying at Shalom that goes like this: “You must attempt something that is so big that if it is not from God it is doomed to fail.” Now, you might say, “Why do that?” Because when it works, people will say, “There is no ways that that man could have achieved that. That was a miracle from God.” And if you look at the word of God, and that is why I love the Bible so much, it is one miracle after another. When people say, “It can't be done”, you say, “But God!” God can do all things. So if Christ is for you, then no man can stand against you. So I want to encourage you to keep on by faith. What is faith? Oh, faith is the substance of things hoped for. It is the evidence of things not yet seen. And that is why I love Jesus so much. When we trusted the Lord for a million people to come to the centre of our nation, South Africa, and to pray, and we gave ourselves 6 weeks, people said to me, “Angus, it is impossible.” (It took Billy Graham 2 or 3 years to organise a campaign, even when he came to South Africa), but it did happen and we had over a million people all seated in an open field to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to repent of their sins and to pray for the nation. Remember what happened after that? Change in politics, a different president came in, the drought that was predicted became a bumper crop, the many, many miracles, many miracles that we will only hear about in Heaven - people healed, marriages restored, new businesses opening, men going into full-time ministry because our trust was in the Lord.Jesus bless you and have a wonderful day, goodbye.

Donald and Darlene Rynkowski's house exploded with them inside. Listen to the 80-year-old couple's harrowing story of survival—and trusting God in the midst of devastation.  Connect with us through email at gps@billygraham.org or on Facebook at Billy Graham Radio. If you'd like to know more about beginning a relationship with Jesus Christ, or deepening the faith you already have, visit FindPeacewithGod.net. If you'd like to pray with someone, call our Billy Graham 24/7 Prayer Line at 855-255-7729. 

What if the most powerful opportunity to share Jesus isn't from a stage—but at a gas station, on a dog walk, or during a simple conversation? In this encouraging episode of Revelations Podcast, Reagan welcomes back evangelist Nick Hall, founder of Pulse Ministries, fresh off an incredible weekend where hundreds of people surrendered their lives to Christ at the Fargo Red River Valley Fair. Nick shares inspiring stories of God's faithfulness over the last 20 years, how Pulse began on the campus of NDSU, and why God continues to use ordinary people in extraordinary ways. Together, Reagan and Nick remind us that evangelism isn't about having all the answers—it's about loving people, asking simple questions, and being available for the Holy Spirit to work through us. In This Episode Nick shares what God did at the Red River Valley Fair. Hundreds of people respond to the Gospel. The incredible full-circle story of Pulse Ministries returning to where it all began. Why one conversation can change someone's eternity. A moving story about a little girl wearing a Carson Wentz jersey—and how God used a simple interaction to open the door to faith. Reagan shares how attending a Billy Graham crusade became the beginning of her journey with Christ. Why asking "How are you...really?" can open hearts. How God uses everyday believers—not just pastors and evangelists—to reach people. A prayer for boldness, compassion, and divine appointments. Find more from Revelations Podcast hosted by Reagan Kramer: Website | Instagram | Apple Podcast | Youtube Learn more about the Pulse Ministry  Connect with Nick on social media: Instagram | Facebook | Twitter Become Part of Our Mission! Support The Revelations Podcast: Your support fuels our mission to share transformative messages of hope and faith. Click here to learn how you can contribute and be part of this growing community!   This Episode is brought to you by Advanced Medicine Alternatives Get back to the active life you love through natural & regenerative musculoskeletal healing: https://www.georgekramermd.com/ Chapters: 00:00 Introduction and overview of recent ministry experiences 03:44 Nick shares about his recent trip to North Dakota 06:25 The significance of Fargo fair and evangelistic outreach 07:54 God's faithfulness in college and generational impact 09:51 Stories of lives changed at NDSU and beyond 14:00 The power of simple acts of kindness and love 20:13 A miraculous encounter with Carson Wentz and a young girl 23:08 God's work in families and the importance of prayer 27:08 The joy of everyday evangelism and listening to the Holy Spirit 33:05 Practical steps for sharing faith and praying boldly 36:12 Encouragement to live boldly and love others intentionally    

Why did so many Bible-believing churches withdraw from the culture during the twentieth century?In this episode of What's the World Coming To?, Pastor Ken Ortize continues the "What's the Church Coming To?"series by examining the historical forces that reshaped Christianity. As higher criticism, secularism, and evolutionary thinking gained influence, many believers responded by separating from the culture rather than engaging it—leading to what became known as "The Frozen Chosen."Pastor Ken traces this journey through church history, explaining how the authority of Scripture came under attack, why many Christians retreated from public life, and how leaders like Billy Graham helped call the church back to engaging the world with biblical truth instead of fear.This episode is both a history lesson and a challenge for believers today: How can Christians stand firmly on God's Word while faithfully reaching the culture around them?If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, share it with a friend, and visit www.wtwcomingto.com for more biblical teaching and resources. www.wtwcomingto.com 

America knows Kathie Lee Gifford from four decades of live television. She sat next to Regis. She laughed with Hoda. But nobody knows this Kathie Lee. In this episode, she tells stories she has never told anywhere else, and she recounts them for the first time right here. She describes the two demonic encounters that confirmed the supernatural for her, one on a Delaware boardwalk and one inside a church in Bethlehem. She recounts hearing the audible voice of Jesus at 13 years old in a movie theater. She shares the prophecy Billy Graham spoke over her life at age 20, the phone call from Howard Stern after 30 years of public hatred, and the X-ray her doctor called a miracle.Then we get highbrow scholarly. Kathie Lee has spent over a decade studying biblical history under rabbis in Israel, and her new book, Nero and Paul, pits ancient evil against living hope. She takes us to the Gates of Hell at the base of Mount Hermon, explains why Jesus was never a carpenter, and unpacks the clash between two kingdoms that never stopped raging. Two men wanted the same throne. One declared himself a god and died in disgrace. The other met the risen Messiah on a dusty road and changed the world. The battle between the kingdom of darkness and the Kingdom of Heaven runs through every era, every career, and every heart. There is nothing new under the sun.  This Episode is Sponsored By: https://go.goodranchers.com/BLURRY — Get $50 off your order when you use our code BLURRY. https://livemomentous.com — Get up to 35% OFF your first order with code BLURRY http://blurrygold.com/ — Get a FREE Gold & Silver Kit while supplies last! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Billy Graham, Martin Luther King, and Mother Teresa restore faith, hope and love to the Church.Find more at https://timharner.com

What if the most world-changing moments in your faith don't feel extraordinary at all?This week, Pastor Matt welcomes Casey Tobik — Prayer Pastor at King's Church and Midwest Regional Director for 24/7 Prayer — to unpack one of Scripture's most overlooked hinge-moments: Ananias in Acts 9. Not Saul. Not the Damascus road. The ordinary, hesitant, honest disciple God called to place his hands on the very man who'd been hunting Christians.Casey walks through what it actually looks like to hear God's voice, wrestle with fear and doubt, and still say "yes, Lord" — using Ananias's honesty as a model for real, unedited prayer. From Edward Kimball's shoe-store conversation that eventually led to Billy Graham, to Pastor Matt's own vacation encounter with a young couple he felt nudged to pray for, this episode makes the case that God's math isn't about grand gestures. It's about small, faithful obedience whose ripple effects we may never live to see.If you've ever doubted whether that quiet nudge was really God — or wondered if your ordinary "yes" could matter — this one's for you.

Billy Graham (1918-2018) delivers a classic sermon from the New Testament Gospel of Luke, chapter 10, verses 25-37. Enjoy this ENCORE Presentation! American Conservative University podcast at https://amzn.to/47qnwzx Billy Graham audiobooks at https://amzn.to/45JbxvB Billy Graham podcast https://amzn.to/3J6RZZn Billy Graham books at https://amzn.to/4ft5izk Gospel of Luke available at https://amzn.to/3M6sTId ENJOY Ad-Free content, Bonus episodes, and Extra materials when joining our growing community on https://patreon.com/markvinet SUPPORT this channel by purchasing any product on Amazon using this FREE entry LINK https://amzn.to/3POlrUD (Amazon gives us credit at NO extra charge to you). Mark Vinet's TIMELINE video channel: https://youtube.com/c/TIMELINE_MarkVinet Mark's History of North America podcast: www.parthenonpodcast.com/history-of-north-america Website: https://markvinet.com/podcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mark.vinet.9 X (twitter): https://twitter.com/HistoricalJesu Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/denarynovels Mark's books: https://amzn.to/3k8qrGM Audio credits: American Conservative University-The Good Samaritan, Billy Graham Classic Sermon, ACU Sunday Series (10aug2025). Audio excerpts reproduced under the Fair Use (Fair Dealings) Legal Doctrine for purposes such as criticism, comment, teaching, education, scholarship, research and news reporting.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dave Ferguson, co-founder of Exponential, co-founder of Community Christian Church, and author of Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. For decades, Dave has championed one central conviction: the Church will never fulfill its mission through addition alone. In this conversation, he challenges church leaders to rethink success, embrace multiplication, and cultivate the kind of personal health that sustains lasting kingdom impact. Are you building a church that grows, or a movement that multiplies? Wondering how your leadership today shapes generations of ministry tomorrow? Dave offers a compelling vision for creating influence that extends far beyond your own church. Multiplication changes everything. // Dave believes many church leaders are asking the wrong question. Instead of waking up each day asking, “How can I grow my church?” he challenges leaders to ask, “How can we multiply God's Kingdom?” That subtle shift transforms every leadership decision, from staffing and budgeting to leadership development and church planting. Growth focuses on adding people to one church. Multiplication focuses on reproducing disciples, leaders, churches, and networks that reach beyond one church long after the original leader steps away. The Church needs a new scorecard. // Only a small percentage of churches in the United States are actively reproducing new churches. Through Exponential’s “16% Mission,” the goal is to move enough churches toward multiplication that reproducing churches become the cultural norm rather than the exception. Reaching this tipping point would fundamentally reshape how churches think about mission and influence. Culture beats strategy every time. // Multiplication doesn’t begin with a sermon series or a strategic initiative—it begins with culture. Dave encourages leaders to model multiplication long before they publicly announce it. Whether leading a small group, mentoring an apprentice, or developing future leaders, pastors must demonstrate the behaviors they hope to reproduce. People adopt what leaders consistently practice far more readily than what they merely promote. Health fuels multiplication—not hustle. // While multiplication requires intentional effort, Dave warns against building ministry on relentless hustle. Instead, healthy multiplication grows out of healthy leaders. Churches don’t simply reproduce strategies. They reproduce the character, priorities, and habits of their leaders. If leaders neglect their own well-being, they will unintentionally reproduce that same dysfunction throughout the organization. Watch the four gauges. // At the heart of Dave’s new book, Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, is a simple daily framework for preventing leadership drift. He encourages leaders to evaluate four areas every day: relational health, physical health, mental health, and spiritual health. By honestly assessing these four “gauges,” leaders can recognize unhealthy patterns before they become major failures. Rather than waking up years later wondering how they drifted so far, leaders make small course corrections every day. Even better, Dave encourages processing these areas with trusted community, since accountability helps combat self-deception. Think beyond your lifetime. // Ultimately, Dave invites leaders to adopt a longer horizon for ministry. Buildings, attendance, and personal accomplishments eventually fade, but investing in people creates lasting kingdom influence. When leaders intentionally multiply healthy disciples and healthy leaders, their ministry continues bearing fruit long after they’re gone. That, Dave believes, is the kind of legacy worth pursuing. To learn more about Dave Ferguson, Exponential, and his new book Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, visit exponential.org/multiplier or daveferguson.org. Email Dave directly to get bulk copies of his book. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You’re in for a real treat today. Today is a leader, you know, you have those leaders in your life. You’re like, man, I wish everybody could be exposed to this person and would follow along. And you feel like you’re introducing a friend to friends. That’s what today’s conversation is. And I hope at the same time, it’ll challenge you and encourage you as we think about the future. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dave Ferguson back on the podcast from Exponential. It is a growing community of leaders committed to accelerating multiplication of healthy, reproducing faith communities. They equip multipliers through a variety of resources. You might know their big event, Exponential, but that’s not all they do. They do a lot of other stuff as well.Rich Birch — Dave also was the co-founder of Community Christian in Chicagoland and New Thing. We actually had Ted on recently for a follow-up episode, which is fantastic. So these will this will come out at a similar time. Dave also wrote a book recently that I want you to pick up. It’s called Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. Dave, welcome to the show.Dave Ferguson — Hey, thanks, Rich. Good to be with you. Rich Birch — Yeah, so glad you’re you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the story for folks that don’t know or maybe aren’t following along. Maybe give us fill out the bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background.Dave Ferguson — Long story short yeah, in my early mid-20s I planted a church in Chicago with a whole bunch of friends. God was very very kind to it; it grew had pretty large, and we had locations across the city and the suburbs. Out of that, then we started planting churches. Our first one was in Denver, then Southern California, and then Detroit, then New York, then Boston. And pretty soon we made a shift that we went from not only reproducing new churches, but helping reproduce networks of new churches. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than and we realized.Dave Ferguson — And we got opportunities then to do that in Europe and then in Africa. And next thing you know, fast forward 15, 20 years, and we were in 69 countries. And this will sound better than it is, but we got to help plant over 35,000 churches. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s incredible. Dave Ferguson — And at the same time, we also started Exponential. And so all three of those things had seemed to have God’s favor on it, grew. And in the last year, I apprenticed a new lead pastor, Ted Coniaris, that you referenced, who is, I guess, recently on the podcast… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Dave Ferguson — …and who’s doing a great job at Community.Dave Ferguson — And then then on top of that, we moved New Thing underneath Exponential. So Exponential actually acquired New Thing. And for us, that feels really good. It was pretty, pretty easy transition, but feels really good because we have something we call the 16% mission that we’re going after. And it’s starting to feel actually achievable now. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool. Dave Ferguson — So I think I think that’s all that’s all the things.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s it. Just that’s it. Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s so good. And, you know, there’s a lot I respect about you and your leadership. But one of the core things I love is you’ve really given your life to multiplication. You’re focused on this idea, helping us think about and then really in the best sort of way, poking and prodding and pushing us to come back to this idea. Rich Birch — I think for many of us, the word multiplication is the kind of thing we can hear it so many times. We can kind of tune it out or it like, what does that actually mean? Aren’t we all committed to multiplication? Isn’t it, isn’t that just what it means? So why does it still matter to the church today? Really lay it on thick here. Why is multiplication such a big deal?Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I mean, two things real quick. I mean, one for every one of your listeners, if they’re involved in ministry, I mean, they want, they they’re trading their life and they want to make the greatest impact they can. And I’m telling you, when you don’t invest in multiplication, you’re short selling yourself. You’re not going to, you’re not going to get to make the kind of impact that God intended for you to, or you possibly could.Dave Ferguson — So, I mean, Let me give you a quick example, so it becomes real tangible.Dave Ferguson — So two weeks ago, I was in Long Beach, California, and I ran into Matt Larson. Matt’s a guy who did a leadership residency with us probably, man, it’s been a long time ago now, 15 years ago. So he basically came, spent a year with us at Community, really sharp leader, but he didn’t really understand how to multiply. And we kind of helped him understand how to do that. Dave Ferguson — So he does that, goes back to Ventura, California, plants Anthem Church, and they’ve planted 15 churches. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Dave Ferguson — So think about this and this this. And I don’t know how you keep score, but this is how I keep score with my own, how am I making a difference?Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — So like even like if I’m taking a day off in Chicago… Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — …Matt’s still working in Ventura, California, and he’s planting churches. Rich Birch — Right. Amazing.Dave Ferguson — And I, you know, you’ve heard me probably say like my favorite quote from Bob Buford, my fruit grows in other people’s trees.Dave Ferguson — That’s what multiplication does. Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — Instead of just having one tree, you get a whole orchard. Dave Ferguson — Or Troy McMahon, who’s one of my best friends.Dave Ferguson — My wife’s getting ready to go to Kansas City to see his wife in just a few hours here.Dave Ferguson — And I mean, again, probably 15 years ago, they took 25 people who moved from Chicago to Kansas City. We blessed them and sent them with some money. They’ve gone to multiple locations.Dave Ferguson — They’ve started four networks there in Kansas City and have probably planted somewhere between 60 and 70 churches.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.Dave Ferguson — I mean, again, if I can say it this way, like I count that.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — I’m just telling people. So if you just want to kind of focus on just your thing, you will never, ever make the kind of impact you can if you invest in multiplication of multiplying other leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — And the other thing, so one, it’s in your best interest because you got this game not to make money. None of us are making any money, right?Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — You got this game because you’re like, this is the best way I can make a difference. And if you’re not doing multiplication, you’re short selling yourself.Dave Ferguson — But let me add one more thing.Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — It’s also how the mission gets accomplished. I mean, if you went into Acts 1:8, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth, and Jesus said, okay, here four more guys.Dave Ferguson — Last time, before I leave, i want to shoot here’s here’s the mission, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth. The only way that that’s going to happen is if there’s a movement, and movement does not happen unless there’s multiplication.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, and there’s, ah you know, one of the things I appreciate about kind of the the you and the broader exponential movement, I think you’ve helped really sharpen this conversation, tighten this up and get clarity for us, which I think is is positive.Rich Birch — And, you know, I bump into a lot of churches that are struggling, a lot of teams that are struggling with getting their their staff to be Ephesians 4 type people, people that are equipping others, that are multiplying others, that they, and there’s an interesting connection between these two, right? Somewhere we thought, oh, you could reach a bunch of people, but not actually equip anyone, which is so strange, right? It’s a strange, and actually there’s only a tiny fraction of churches that are actually multiplying today.Rich Birch — Most are only doing addition. I think this this thinking is one of the ways I think you’ve helped us sharpen this up. Why do you think that math is so stuck and kind of unpack that, help us understand, you know, the kind of the problem we’re trying to attack here.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I think one of the things you’re referencing, so I casually talked about the 16% mission. Let me back up.Dave Ferguson — We want to see 16%, and I know your audience is bigger than the United States, but in the U.S., that’s where our exponential U.S.’s focus is. We want to see 16% of all churches in the U.S. become reproducing or multiplying churches. And that means that they’ve ever planted a church in the last three years.Dave Ferguson — When we first did the homework on this, it’s only about 4%. Now we’ve moved the needle in the last 10 years to 7%. Rich Birch — Amazing.Dave Ferguson — We think in the next five years, we can get to 10%. In the next 10 years, we can get to 16%. And 16% is kind of that tipping point. Where the of that tipping point, you get the right innovators and early adopters. They will convince the whole that this should be normative.Dave Ferguson — And that’s what we’re trying to do. So with that in mind, you’re right. So we’re still only at 7%. And I think the biggest… we’re stuck we’re stuck in an existing paradigm. We’re like fish swimming in water that um we think the best that we can do is grow a church. And I And I think candidly, here’s how I’d frame it up. I think most leaders wake up every morning asking the question, how can can grow my church?Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — How can I grow my church? And that’s a good question, but it’s not a great question. It’s not an Acts 1:8 question.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dave Ferguson — It’s not the kind of question going allow you to maximize your impact, you know, where you’re sleeping in on a Saturday you’ve got a guy in Kansas City and you’ve got a guy in Southern California who’s planting churches. Okay.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — A better question is how do we multiply God’s kingdom? Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — And if and if we could get if we could get leaders to wake up every morning asking that question. Okay, and again, I and versus we, because it’s going to take us working together, not just grow, like addition, but actually multiply, multiplication, and not just my church, but actually God’s kingdom.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s going to make a huge difference in the kingdom. And I think, so when you get stuck in that kind of addition, like how do I grow my church, it impacts decisions you make about money… Rich Birch — Yep. Dave Ferguson — …because you’re going to go, oh, I need to keep that here. So we can you know add another you know and add another wing to our building versus like, oh, guess what? Maybe if I so if i sent that money to you know this church plant, it’s going to result in 70 churches in Kansas City.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s highly leveraged like venture spiritual venture capital is what it is. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — It implements the decisions we make about staff. You know, we want to hold on to our best staff instead of developing them. And then some of them who actually have the capability of starting other churches and even networks, blessing them and sending them out and going like, yeah, I’m a spiritual father and these are my kids. I’m cheering them on. Dave Ferguson — So I think that’s that’s, we’re kind of stuck in this paradigm and it’s not a biblical one, but it is a paradigm that we’re stuck in.Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. And, you know, I’ve similarly been with a lot of leadership teams where we’re in the kind of growth conversation. And I’ll come at that from ah kind of the almost the opposite end, but you end in the same place, which you end up saying, like, this box is not big enough to contain the number of people that your church is hoping to reach.Rich Birch — Like we can’t build a box big enough to do that.Rich Birch — I don’t care how much money, I don’t care how good you are at fundraising, you can’t do that. So we have to multiply. If you really think that we are trying to reach and make an impact in our community, if there’s so many churches say, we’re for whatever city we’re in, we’re for Chicago, we’re for whatever.Rich Birch — If you’re really for that, then you have to be by definition for multiplication and for other churches and for seeing, you know, this thing multiplying out. We can’t, we can’t get them all to come here. That’s never going to work. That’s just, it doesn’t work at all.Dave Ferguson — And here’s thing you can, though, do. I mean, you’re right. If it’s just about their butts in your seats, whatever. But if it’s about you bringing them and equipping them and then sending them out, oh, that’s highly leveraged. And that could be a really good use of a building or facility.Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. That’s good. So, so much of this conversation, you know, I want to tap in your expertise. We’ve got a lot of lot of executive pastors listening in. You know, you have been in the one of the multiple seats you’ve sat in has been the kind of lead pastor seat. And let’s talk to some XPs from your perspective as as a you know a lead pastor around this area.Dave Ferguson — Oh, good. Those are the people actually the stuff done. They’re not just the top. These are the executors.Rich Birch — But let’s let’s think that through. So vision isn’t just about getting up on Sunday and preaching about it. You’ve actually led organizations that have done this stuff. And you know you’ve you’ve cast a compelling vision, but then have seen the organizations actually go out and make this stuff happen. So we think about it from our seat as an executive pastor. What is the executive pastor? Where do we actually come into play in this thing? What’s our piece of the puzzle? How can we help kind of move this thing forward at an operational level? You you named a couple of things, money, staffing. Help us think through that.Dave Ferguson — and And the assumption here is, okay, so the lead pastor is pro-multiplication, and now you have to execute the vision.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — I I think one of the things, grab a hold of how do we create ah a multiplication culture? Because if you can create a multiplication in culture, you will literally become, people in your church will become unconsciously competent.Dave Ferguson — I’m thinking of a real quick story. A friend of mine named Doug. Doug was a guy who was nominally involved at Community. All right. Long story short, only because his wife insisted he joined a small group that Sue and I were leading. Now I didn’t have an apprentice leader in that small group, which is which is not good, okay? That’s how you don’t create a culture.Dave Ferguson — But we went through six weeks and I went up to Doug and I said, I told him, I said, hey… And actually said in front of the whole group because he’s the kind of guy I could do this to. I said, hey, I know this group would like to continue, but we can’t continue unless we have an apprentice leader.Rich Birch — Nice.Dave Ferguson — And I said, Doug, will you be my apprentice leader?Rich Birch — That’s great. Dave Ferguson — He’s kind of like you. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — Big guy with a bald head. Beads his sweat or popping on top of his head. He says, all right, I’ll do it, I’ll do it, I’ll do it. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — So he he agrees to be my apprentice leader. So I start meeting with him because the group was on Wednesdays. I’d meet with him on Tuesdays at Starbucks around 4 o’clock as he’d finish up work. And we’d kind of…And I remember his first question to me was like, hey, so if I’m going to be an apprentice leader, I should read the Bible, I guess, right?Dave Ferguson — I’m like, yeah, you probably should.Rich Birch — Yes, it’s a good starting point.Dave Ferguson — And so I told him how I how I do it. But over the course of the next 14 months or so, um you know, I basically apprenticed him through what we call the the five steps.Dave Ferguson — And here’s here’s the fun part of this story. OK, so Doug didn’t have much of a church background.Dave Ferguson — So he gets to the place where he thinks he’s ready to lead a group. And I think he’s ready, which people ask me a lot. how do you know when a leader is ready? I think it’s really that it’s that simple when they think they’re ready and you think they’re ready, they’re ready. And so I said, okay, why don’t you take over this group? It’ll be easy for me to go start a new group. You take… And he he said, okay. Dave Ferguson — I come back, like two or three weeks later, to Starbucks on Tuesday at 4 o’clock, sitting at the exact same table where we would always sit was Doug and his brand new apprentice, Tim.Rich Birch — Love it.Dave Ferguson — And so Doug was like unconsciously competent. He was like, oh, I thought I thought every church in America did that. I thought that’s how it works. I didn’t know I had a choice.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — And if you create a culture of multiplication, that’s what will happen over and over and over again.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Well, and and yeah, what a vivid picture. And, you know, we’ve got to move our our people and our systems towards, you know, continuing to multiply at every level. When you think about a church that’s stuck and it maybe is is just focusing on addition. They’re really in that, but they they have a desire to want to multiply.Rich Birch — Is your recommendation, or maybe what you’ve seen happen, the churches that have actually made that pivot towards multiplication, is it like a ground up thing? Like we start with, man, we’ve got to get all of our, you know, all of our team leaders get an apprentice, let’s go there. And then we’ll trickle up through the organization, which then leads to the conclusion. Oh, by the way, we’re going to have to, we’re going to multiply because we’ve kind of built this culture.Rich Birch — Or, is it better to go or or maybe there’s advantages to go one way or the other from the kind of the, hey, we’re going to declare this and that’s going to kind of pull us towards multiplication. Do you understand what I’m saying? Ground up or we cast a vision to pull towards it.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. And creating the culture.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. In creating the culture, yeah.Dave Ferguson — If you haven’t, if you, if you don’t currently have that kind of culture, here’s what I would encourage leaders to do. I do think it does start at the top with like the lead pastor and the executive pastor.Dave Ferguson — And I encourage leaders at every level. I said, lead at the smallest level of your organization and lead at the largest level and you train and trust everybody in between.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good.Dave Ferguson — You want, and so for, I mean, all, whatever it was, 30 some years at Community, I always led a small group and I tried to always have an apprentice leader. So you need to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get, okay. And I think there was a moment where you declare, Hey, this is who we are. And you need to decide if you want to buy in or not. You’re firm, but kind about that. Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get all of your staff, plus all the people that you consider as leaders and key influencers, which is probably somewhere around 16 to 20% of your total church. You get them bought into it.Dave Ferguson — Once you get them bought into it, and it’ll probably take you a year and they’re actually doing this stuff. Then you preach a sermon on it. Then you start casting vision on it. Then you declare it for the whole, because what will happen is that, again, kind of back to that innovators and early adopters. When they’re in the lobby and somebody comes them and goes like, hey, what do you think about this idea of apprenticeship? And we’re all going to have apprentices or multiply. They’ll already have been done it. They’ll have done it for a year.Dave Ferguson — And they’ll be like, oh, yeah, I think this is awesome. And that’s exactly what you want.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. And even what you’re doing.Dave Ferguson — I guess I’m questioning if you’re ready to make that shift, I wouldn’t preach a sermon on it first, because what they’re going to do is if you’re preaching a sermon on it and you’re not doing this stuff, what happens is you implicitly and almost accidentally create a culture that says, oh, I don’t actually have to do this stuff because the guy who’s casting the vision only talks about it and doesn’t actually do it. And so you create that culture, which is what we have a lot of.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, I for sure I’ve seen a lot of that in, you know, in the churches I’ve been a part of, even with stuff like ah the fact that you, you know, were leading in a group, you know, I’ve I’ve seen a number, not necessarily the lead pastors I’ve worked for, but in churches where there’s like the lead pastor, they like elevate themselves out of that kind of thing. And they’re like Oh, I don’t need to interact with normal people. And, and that comes out, you know, I’ve, cause I’ve said it all the time to lead pastors. I’m like, even simply like, I would way rather you that just leak out of you that you’re, that you’re apprenticing a leader in a small group.Rich Birch — Then, then we have some big thing on why apprenticing is important because people will catch the the small little things, the little breadcrumbs here and there. They’ll catch that at a more powerful level than the big, let’s put a, let’s get a brand name, stick it on a wall, you know, kind of thing. That’s cool. That’s great.Dave Ferguson — It’ll but end up in your sermons, it’ll end sidebars, hallway conversations. Here’s one of my favorite examples. You know, Nicky Gumbel, right?Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — So Nicky’s the guy who previously was the vicar at Holy Trinity Brompton. He was really the guy who kind of really brought out Alpha… Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …which you might say is, I mean, right there with Billy Graham and the Apostle Paul… Rich Birch — Yeah, Oh, absolutely. 100%. Dave Ferguson — …greatest evangelistic tools that we’ve ever had.Rich Birch — Yes. 100%.Dave Ferguson — One of the things I love about Nicky is I don’t know how exactly how many years, it’s probably been 40 years. Every semester for 40 years, he always leads an Alpha course.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Dave Ferguson — There’s a reason they have such a strong culture and so powerful. Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — And that’s a big mistake. I mean, I think as, you know, we’ve planted church and starts to grow. And we’re trying to figure out, what can I do and what shouldn’t I do? And one of the first things that goes, oh well, I just won’t lead a small group anymore. I won’t lead a missional community anymore. Whatever is that smallest organizing principle is, you want to hold on to that. Train and trust everybody else to do everything in between. Rich Birch — That’s very good.Dave Ferguson — And as you continue to grow and scale, yeah, influence way out there. But but Ii’ll hold on to this too.Rich Birch — Yeah, continuing to shout out Nikki, I just think the world of Alpha… Dave Ferguson — I do too. Rich Birch — …and it’s been so effective for our our church. And I had an opportunity to interact with him right in the teeth of COVID. I was doing an interview with him. And he, we were talking about some stuff and i it really marked, it was one of those like you lean forward and you’re like, okay, that’s interesting.Rich Birch — He was talking about how he’s like, you know, for years, the meal is a big deal for for Alpha and like, you know, hospitality is a big deal for that. And he said, I was always critical of people that did Alpha online. He’s like, I was always critical of people doing it over Zoom and was like, I would say you can’t do it over Zoom. You can’t do it over Zoom.Rich Birch — And he said, obviously people did it over Zoom and I wasn’t stopping them, but I was, I poo-pooed it. Well, then well then COVID came. And he said exactly what you said. I’m still leading alpha courses and our Apha groups. And so I’m in an Alpha group. And what do you know? This is amazing. God works through this. Rich Birch — And so I was really struck by that, that he as a leader would have the humility to say, hey, I was wrong, but I’m enough in the weeds of this thing to understand, okay, what are the actual implications for our ministry? I think that’s a huge lesson for us to pull away.Dave Ferguson — Well, I mean, two things…Rich Birch — And yeah, I think it’s 35 million people they put through that. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — My thought is two things. One, is I remember that podcast. So thank you very much. I remember going, listening to him. And and and excuse me. And it shaped a lot of the ways I even thought about COVID from hearing from him on that.Dave Ferguson — But I think I think this the second thing is, I think what you were kind of replying to, you have to be in the weeds… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …in order to know how the next innovation is going to happen. I mean, if if he wasn’t doing that, he would have kept with his assumption, no, it’s not going to work and maybe made a lot of bad choices.Rich Birch — Right, right. And we would end up in ah yeah and a very tough spot today. In a lot of ways, that that ministry continues to accelerate… Dave Ferguson — Oh, yeah. Rich Birch — …or that movement really continues to accelerate ah you know in these years, which is amazing.Rich Birch — So one of the things let’s talk about, so one of the things I’ve heard you say is that you really build the case that multiplication has to be built on health, not on hustle. And you know there was a previous generation that was really valued like we wanted leaders. We didn’t want leaders that were burnt out, but we wanted them one step back from being burnt out. We wanted them like right there, right at the line. But what, you know, but I know that’s not what you’re advocating for. But it but I think sometimes our teams, our people, our cultures can look at this and say, this feels like one more thing to do.Rich Birch — So what why does this distinction of health, not hustle, how does that factor in when we’re thinking about actually trying to become a multiplying organization when we’re, you know, we’ve got lots of other stuff to carry as we’re thinking about it. Help us understand that.Dave Ferguson — My experience, particularly working with church planters and other leaders, is they aren’t afraid to hustle. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And in fact, that’s our default position, that I that I will I can maybe outwork the next person. And they’re willing to do it for it for a good cause. But even though we are willing to that, it actually gives us the wrong result. Because if we only hustle more, if only work more, you’re not going to make the impact you could, like I’ve already described, if you’re multiplying more. So I am constantly encouraging leaders, don’t work more, multiply more. Don’t work more, multiply more. And that’s how you make the biggest impact. Dave Ferguson — The other part of that, which is really important, I kind of have a conviction. We knew that we need to try to do the Jesus mission the Jesus way.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — We want to do the Jesus mission, the Jesus way. And I think that has to do with, no, I’m going to try to i’m gonna try to be a great dad. I want to try to be a great husband. I want to try to be a good steward of this body that I have. I want to pay attention to what my thought life, I want to pay attention to my anxiety and and and and levels and and am I feeling depressed? I want to make sure I’m okay spiritually.Dave Ferguson — And I think if we’re doing those kinds of things, we’re checking what I call these four gauges, I think will be healthy leaders.Dave Ferguson — And here’s the axiom that I have kind of led by, especially over the last couple decades, is that you will reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yes. Right.Dave Ferguson — So if if if you want to reproduce unhealth, then be unhealthy. But like if you really want, if you want the, if you want the, the guys in your church to be really good dads. You don’t have to be a perfect dad, but just put in the effort and let them know that you’re also putting in the effort.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — If you want to be a you want people to be you know really good spouses, then try to be that yourself. Because you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I really appreciate that you’re you know that you’re pressing on these issues. I think this is a a critical thing you know for us, and particularly as we, you know I’m in a phase of my ministry where looking on to like, okay, how am I handing this stuff off?Rich Birch — What am I doing to try to help the next generation? And man, I would love the next generation to, I think one of the things that particularly Gen Z leaders are attuned to is they seem to be naturally attuned to like, we’re not going to like drive over a cliff for this thing. We want to do this in a healthy manner. Rich Birch — And and you’re not obviously, you know, you’re highly productive. You get a lot done and Exponential is a highly productive organization. You do a lot. But we want to do it—I like that—you were saying, you know, the Jesus mission, in the Jesus way. That’s actually at the heart of your most recent book Multiplier. Rich Birch — You talk, you kind of referenced these four gauges. Can you unpack that a little bit more at a high level? Help us understand what are the four gauges? And what were you hoping with this book? Why, why another book? Why is this one? What are you hoping this accomplishes for churches?Dave Ferguson — I think there’s a lot of great content out there about personal health, emotional health, how to have a rule of life, that kind of stuff. And we and we need to avail ourselves to it. I think there’s also a lot of great stuff and some of it that I’ve helped contribute to around how do you multiply? How do you you know develop leaders? How do you hero making? All that kind of stuff.Dave Ferguson — What I tried to do in this book though is show how those are so interconnected. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Dave Ferguson — That if you really want to do this for a long time, and that’s how you make the biggest impact, it’s only going to come if you’re a healthy leader, because again, you reproduce who you are.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — And so what we do is we kind of, we, we, we talk about the problem and the problem that all of us face, in the first couple of chapters, is what I call drift.Dave Ferguson — And we drift because…maybe frame it this way. I’ve never had a conversation with a young leader who tells me, hey, 15 years from now, here’s my dream: I hope I’m 50 pounds overweight and divorced and compromising my core convictions.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Dave Ferguson — I’ve never had that conversation. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — But we read about it almost every week. And I sometimes share the story. I mean, I was in a small group with some of the most influential pastors, maybe in the world, but definitely in Chicago for about eight or nine years. If I tried to reassemble that group today, half the seats would be empty.Dave Ferguson — And I don’t think it’s, and I think it’s because they, they drifted and they unintentionally ended up someplace they never intended to be.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Rich Birch — Dave Ferguson — They didn’t intend to end up, you know, in a hotel room with a woman that wasn’t plan A, when they planted a church. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — Or to create a toxic culture, which really benefited them more than other people i don’t think that was like the, the goal from the very beginning. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.Dave Ferguson — And I think what happens is we incrementally, we drift a little bit of time until, you know, in a variety of ways, we end up someplace we never intended to be. So one of the things that I do, I’ll I'll just, maybe I’ll show you here too. I know, this is, this is, I’ll just show you. And I don’t, I know we’re not doing anything on video. I don’t think, but this is, this is kind of, this is my journal.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — Oh, that’s one from like December. Wow. That’s old. There we go. There we go. That’s actually yesterday. And so like, I just write these four letters, RPMS in my journal almost every day.Dave Ferguson — And R stands for relational. How are things with Sue, the kids, my friends?Dave Ferguson — P stands for physical. How am I doing stewarding this body? For me, it’s a trip the fitness center or out running on the prairie path. Dave Ferguson — How am I doing mentally, which has to do with kind of stress or anxiety or thought life?Dave Ferguson — And then how am I doing spiritually? What’s going on between me and God? Dave Ferguson — And then so I just make a little gauge here and I kind of just, where am I? Where am I? And then I actually go ahead and give myself, I like to keep score. If we got executive pastors, they’ll like this. You should keep score.Rich Birch — Yeah, they like numbers. Stuff that ends up on spreadsheets. It’s good.Dave Ferguson — So you can see, like, so I gave myself a score for each of those on a scale of 1 to 10, then a composite, which was 5, which was actually down from 5.25 the day before. And I think that’s because, as you can kind of hear, I got a little bit of a cold, so I’m not feeling well.Dave Ferguson — And, but I, I try to do this every day. And I encourage leaders, those four gauges, relational, physical, mental, spiritual. If you’ll just spend four minutes every day…Rich Birch — That’s so good.Dave Ferguson — …reflecting on those four areas prayerfully, how am I doing relationally? How am I doing physically? How am I doing mentally? How doing spiritually? You’re going to drift. We all drift, but here’s the thing. You’re not going to go a whole month or a whole year or a decade and and suddenly wake up, you know, and someone’s dragging you into court and you’re going like, how in the world did I end up here?Rich Birch — Yeah, I think this is…Dave Ferguson — And so… Rich Birch — Yeah, I would just want to… Dave Ferguson — …it’s hopefully it’s a very, very practical tool for here’s how you can do this every day. And and let me throw this in Rich too, because I want to make sure I hit this. And then if you can do it in community… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …that’ll way mitigate how much you lie to yourself.Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — t’s like if a small group or a missional community every week, just checking in or once a month with another group that you’re you’re working with, I think that if you do that, it’s not foolproof, but it’ll be a big, big, big help.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. The human, uh, human propensity for self-delusion is incredible, right? Like our ability to like become, to lie to ourselves, let alone other people is amazing. You know, I, I want to just honor you for, I think, you know, I, obviously I saw it Exponential this year where you’ve been rolling it out. I’ve, I’ve, I haven’t read the entire book yet, but I’ve read a bunch of it. And I really appreciate that at this phase in your, journey, you’re raising this flag, I think, and connecting it so, you know, integrally to the multiplier, the multiplication mission. I think that is so critically important because we, you know, we’ve seen those leaders who make a series of foolish, unwise decisions that ultimately end up in a tragic spot.Rich Birch — And oftentimes it’s like, I don’t know what to say to people. How do you avoid that? And I like that you have, you’ve put together a framework here to help us think that. Now, as you’ve rolled the book out to folks…Dave Ferguson — How old you how old are you, Rich?Rich Birch — 52.Dave Ferguson — 52. Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — Okay. Like, I’m convinced God’s probably got at least another 20 years… Rich Birch — Sure. Dave Ferguson — …you know, and ah and in some ways it’ll probably be your highest impact years.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.Dave Ferguson — But if one of these gauges goes way south and takes you out, like there’s 20 of the best years of difference-making that we don’t get from Rich Birch. And it’s not just Rich Birch. Every one of the people listening to the podcast. I mean, I think there’s a whole bunch of people that God goes like, no, I got 75 years or 80 years of difference making. And let’s do the whole run.Rich Birch — Yeah. No, I appreciate that. That’s why I think it’s, it’s I'm not doing a good way I’m not doing a good job articulating. I think it’s a gift that you’ve given to the church because you’re helping us actually attack this problem in a really super practical, good way that that I can see it making a huge difference.Rich Birch — And I would agree with you. I think what I realized after being however many decades in ministry, there’s like a real cumulative effect here that it’s like, you know, each decade, I thought things were great in my thirties and then I hit my forties and now I’m in my fifties.Rich Birch — I’m like, oh my goodness, there’s and and sometimes people will say, they’ll they’ll ask you know kind of questions like, you know hey, how do you basically, you know how do you do what you do or whatever? And a part of I’m like, well, you just stay in it. Like you just keep doing it, right? And stay in the game and stay plugged in and yeah.Dave Ferguson — And the and the longer your influence continues to grow, I mean, like, in the kindest, humble way, if Rich Birch emails somebody, you respond. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s kind.Dave Ferguson — Because I mean, you’ve put in so much time you mean now that you you’re able to get things done that quicker than you couldn’t before because people know who you are, they’re interested in what you’re doing, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s true.Dave Ferguson — And I think that’s true with all of us. Our influence will just continue to grow if we stay faithful to this.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great. So I want to, I’m going to, we’re going to talk about where you can get the book in a minute, but just before we get there, of the four, this book’s been out now for a while and it’s out in the world. It’s, you know, as an author, I know that’s a very different experience. You go from writing and then it goes out there and then people react to it.Rich Birch — Are there any of those four gauges that you’ve been surprised by the reaction or you’ve noted the reaction? Like, oh, that’s interesting. I’m hearing from people or I’ve seen, you know, maybe it’s a conversation or that sort of thing that any four of those have kind of bubbled up in in discussion.Dave Ferguson — I think the one, I think that’s what surprised me so far in the conversation is how important the physical gauge, how, how underestimated it is and how important it is.Rich Birch — Oh, interesting. Tell me more.Dave Ferguson — I was just, I was just in a conversation this morning with somebody who’s telling me that he’s really been working on these four gauges and for him in the last year’s dropped 40 pounds. And he’s like, it has, it has really shifted my influence, my, my leadership.Dave Ferguson — He said, I just, I feel more confident walking into a room. And I, yeah, I think probably as Christian leaders, we probably downplay that one the most. And I'm I am surprised.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — I’m not saying it’s the most important of the four… Rich Birch — No. Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …but I am surprised how important it is and the feedback I’m getting on it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I can see that. I can see that for sure.Dave Ferguson — Yeah, I mean we’re whole people.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, the, the days I ride that Peloton in the morning, I’m better at, I’m a better husband those days. I’m a better, you know, it’s, it just works out, which is, yeah, that’s really cool.Rich Birch — All right. So we want to, so when I, as I’ve been going through this, what I’ve been struck by is, man, I think this could be a real gift for our team’s to go through together. i think this could be a great tool for our staff teams. Maybe if I’m an executive pastor, it’s like, Hey, what if we went through this with our senior leaders first? And then maybe we roll it out to our teams or something like that. Where can people pick up copies of this book? Where do we want to send them online to get them? I’m assuming Amazon. Is there anywhere else we want to send them?Dave Ferguson — You know what? Let me give you two things that comes to mind. One is if they’re ready to make a commitment, say, hey, I want to be a multiplier. If you go exponential.org/multiplier, exponential.org/multiplier, there’s a place there where you can say, hey, I want to be a multiplier.Dave Ferguson — We’ll explain how you can be involved in meetups and cohorts and resource. We actually have a multiplier digital check-in. So you can actually do this online every day, that kind of stuff. So that’s one place that would be, I think, really fun.Dave Ferguson — But you’re right, um a lot of people are using it as a book to go over with their with their staff or with their teams or even their networks. And if they’re going to get, I think it’s like six or seven or more, maybe it’s a dozen, somewhere in that neighborhood, you’re going to get more than few, go ahead and email me and I’ll tell you you get a bulk discount. And that’s dave@exponential.orgRich Birch — Great.Dave Ferguson — dave@exponential.org – Say, hey, I’m going to do this with my team. How can I get a bulk discount? And my assistant, Sarah or me, will get back to you and let you know how you can do that.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s fantastic. Friends, I don’t say this with every author that comes on, but I really, I would highly endorse, would recommend that you do that. I think this could be the book you should pick up maybe this summer, read it by yourself, read it with a small group of people. I do think this could be, I think it’s a critical resource. I think it’s, I think this is more than just like, hey, it’s another book. You know, I think there’s a real potential here for this to shift the conversation in a really positive way in the broader church. So I would love more people to pick it up. Well, Dave, this has been incredible. I really appreciate you being here today. Any final words as we kind of land today’s episode?Dave Ferguson — I would probably come back to, if I was going leave people with one thought, is just just remember that you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — So good. Appreciate you, Dave. Thanks so much. We want to send people to exponential.org. Is there anywhere else online we want them to go if they want to track with you or with the movement or anything like that?Dave Ferguson — I mean um I’m on most of the socials, so you can follow me there. DaveFerguson.org, DaveFerguson.org, if, you know, for some reason you want me to speak or do something or find other books that I’ve written.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for being here today, sir. Appreciate that.Dave Ferguson — Hey, my pleasure.

In this commemorative worship service, we listened to historic sermons from John Winthrop, John Witherspoon, Martin Luther King Jr., and Billy Graham, while singing enduring hymns that have shaped the faith of generations of Americans. Together, we were reminded that while history changes, the gospel remains the same, drawing us to the Lord’s Table.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Eric Holmstrom, Lead Pastor of Purpose Church in Pomona, California. Founded more than 150 years ago, Purpose Church has a rich legacy of ministry and is currently experiencing significant growth following a healthy leadership transition. In this conversation, Eric shares lessons from succeeding a beloved long-tenured pastor, building on an existing culture, and leading a historic church into a new season of impact. Are you preparing for a succession transition—or wondering how to lead after a highly respected predecessor? Eric offers practical wisdom on navigating change with humility, honoring the past, and creating momentum for the future. Following a beloved predecessor. // Succeeding a pastor who led for 31 years can feel intimidating, and Eric is refreshingly honest about the insecurities he faced. During the transition process, he wrestled with feelings of inadequacy and wondered whether he was the right person for the role. Yet he found confidence not in his abilities, but in God's calling. A defining moment came on the morning of the congregational vote when he reflected on Isaiah 41:13: “I am the Lord your God who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, do not fear; I will help you.” That promise became an anchor throughout the transition. The gift of a healthy handoff. // Eric credits much of the success of the transition to the generosity and wisdom of former lead pastor Glenn Gunderson. During the public handoff, Glenn introduced Eric to the congregation as “your new lead pastor” and then added, “and my new lead pastor.” That simple statement communicated trust, unity, and support. Glenn also intentionally stepped back for several months to allow Eric to build relationships with the congregation before gradually returning to participate in ministry. The result was a transition marked by health rather than division. Focus on what only you can do. // One of Eric's biggest adjustments was determining how to spend his time as lead pastor. He quickly realized he could be involved in almost anything, but shouldn't be. Instead, he narrowed his focus to vision, spiritual direction, staff development, and culture. While pastoral care remains important, he sees his primary role through the lens of Ephesians 4: equipping leaders who then shepherd and disciple others throughout the church. You are not the exception—you are the example. // One of the most significant initiatives Eric introduced was an employee spiritual commitment for church staff. He noticed a tendency among ministry leaders to unintentionally exempt themselves from practices they encourage others to embrace. Reading Scripture, serving, giving, participating in groups, and pursuing spiritual growth are not just expectations for church members—they are expectations for staff as well. After months of discussion, clarification, and prayer, the entire staff committed to a shared set of spiritual standards designed to strengthen culture and integrity across the organization. Building an intentional invite culture. // Purpose Church has also seen momentum through strategic “Sunday Funday” invite events. Rather than creating dramatically different experiences, these Sundays closely resemble a normal weekend service while adding elements that make inviting easier. Eric intentionally tells the congregation exactly what will be taught and who the message is designed for, helping members identify specific people to invite. This approach has contributed to increased attendance, more baptisms, and a growing number of people taking first steps toward faith. Shepherd people where they are. // Looking back, one of Eric's biggest lessons is the importance of meeting people where they are emotionally during a transition. Some church members were grieving the departure of a beloved pastor, while others were brand new and excited about the future. Rather than forcing everyone into the same experience, Eric sought to pastor each person according to their unique journey. This posture of empathy helped create trust during a potentially difficult season. To learn more about Purpose Church, visit purposechurch.com or follow their ministry online for resources, messages, and updates. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad you’ve decided to tune in and you’re going to be rewarded for that today. We’re having a conversation that I know there’s a whole bunch of leaders that are on the front end of this decision. And today you’re going to get a chance to kind of peek up over the horizon and see potentially where your church is going to be in a few years. You’re going to want to stick around for this entire conversation. We’ve got Eric Holmstrom with us. He is the lead pastor of Purpose Church, which is in Pomona, California. Rich Birch — It originally started as Spadra, if I’m pronouncing correct, Baptist Church 150 years ago. It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country. It’s diverse, multi-generational of every age and stage. And Eric has been the lead pastor since 2024. Welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Eric Holmstrom — Well, thank you so much, Rich, for having me. I am a huge fan of you and what you’re doing. I love how you’re supporting and helping church leaders and ministry leaders. So thanks for letting me join you today.Rich Birch — Oh, come on. That’s super kind. Glad you’re here and really looking forward to learning from you today. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of your story and tell us a little bit about Purpose and kind of set the context for us.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, well, Rich, that’s really cool too that you knew the name of our original church. It was Spadra Baptist, I think, was back in the day.Rich Birch — Spadra.Eric Holmstrom — And it’s actually, our church is 156 years old. So our church was started three years before the city of Pomona even became a city. And so a group of people came into this area and felt God calling them to plant a church here. And for 156 years, we’ve been in different parts of the city, but always here in Pomona, feeling called by God here. And so I am lead pastor number 19. Rich Birch — Wow.Eric Holmstrom — And so I’m just a blip on the radar here. And unless Jesus returns, Lord willing, there will be lead pastor 21, 20, or 20, 21, 22, 23. And they won’t even remember me. They won’t even know anything about me and God will continue to do a great work through this church. Eric Holmstrom — So I came here, my wife Sarah and I came here. We had one kid at the time, Charlie, and we came here 13 years ago. And you know felt like, this is a great, healthy church. The lead pastor, our our former lead pastor, Glenn Gunderson, just an amazing man of God. Him and his wife, Kimberly, and their family, they led here for 31 years as our lead pastor and just such a legacy leader.Eric Holmstrom — So when we got here, I started as the high school pastor and, I you know, wasn’t sure how long we’d be here. Loved the ministry, loved that ah there is a multi-generational, very diverse congregation here in terms of even diverse socioeconomically.Eric Holmstrom — So I love the opportunity to get to do youth ministry. That’s what I was passionate about and excited about and just wanted to faithfully follow God. I mean, that’s where my story of faith really began was going into my freshman year of high school. That’s when I got saved. That’s when I gave my life to Christ. I was at a camp, summer camp, went there looking for a girl and I found God. And my life was forever changed because of that, because of this camp and the local church that discipled me.Eric Holmstrom — And so got into youth ministry, came here, ah was a high school pastor for 10 years here, did a total of 18 years in youth ministry, and then began to sense that God was calling me and my family to step into this new season. And our lead pastor was encouraging of that. He really saw that in me. Eric Holmstrom — But then in our church polity, in our structure here, there had to be a church vote. And so I interviewed, got grilled by, search committee…Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Holmstrom — …had an amazing, you know experience, a challenging. And at the end of it, uh, you know, we went before the congregation and there was a vote and I got enough votes to become the next lead pastor. Rich Birch — Love it. Eric Holmstrom — And the baton was passed and it was such a healthy transition. Our, our former lead pastor, pastor Glenn, I’ll never forget on that that ah Sunday when he passed the baton to me, he said to our whole church, he said, this is Eric, your new lead pastor, and this is Eric, my new lead pastor.Rich Birch — Oh, wow. What a gift.Eric Holmstrom — And so he just got it. It was a powerful statement and very humbled. And and yeah, and then he him and his family kind of for six months ah gave a little space for me to bond with the congregation.Eric Holmstrom — And then their, you know, they’re back in the rotation now. We see them about once a month and then they’re with their grandkids and doing other things. But ah but he preaches here still. Pastor Glenn preaches here about three or four times a year still. Rich Birch — Love it. Eric Holmstrom — And so it’s been a beautiful, healthy transition.Rich Birch — That’s so cool. I love the fact that you’re, you know, you know, there’s 19 pastors been there over those 150 years. I love that context of you setting yourself in like, hey, ah you’re in one in a line.Rich Birch — A couple of years ago, I was in London, England, and was at a church and was talking to the vicar. And he was, we were just walking around their building… Eric Holmstrom — Wow. Rich Birch — …and he said, yeah, this wall over here is a thousand years old. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah. Rich Birch — And, and then he had similar, they have ah really literally written on the wall, all the pastors through the years.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — And he pointed at some guy and said, that guy is written in a play by Shakespeare. Like he’s literally a character in Shakespeare.Eric Holmstrom — No way.Rich Birch — Yeah. So I was like, man, that’s just a, you know, thinking about legacy this is a very different way to think about it.Eric Holmstrom — Oh, oh, oh.Rich Birch — Right. And I’ve been around forever. Well, let’s go back to those early…Eric Holmstrom — And Rich, I, I…Rich Birch — Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.Eric Holmstrom — Oh, was just gonna I wish you could come and see our church because we have this like heritage wall of like, you know, our church, different seasons, doing different things, buildings, groups, whatever. And there’s a wall of all of us like lead pastors. And you should see that wall. These lead pastors are like the most distinguished, like, you know, FB then their last name, Reverend, Doctor. And they’ve got the suits and the glorious beards and they look amazing. And then there’s me, this buffoon, who is this guy? Like who how did if he make this cut?Rich Birch — One of these things doesn’t belong.Eric Holmstrom — I don’t fit in, but I’m just humbled and honored that God would choose me. D.L. Moody has that line, or his son, Paul Moody. D.L. Moody is one of my mentors, and ah you know historical mentors. But his son, Paul, said that ah about his dad, he said, D.L. Moody never got over that God would use him, despite all of his handicaps. And that ah his wife, the love of his life would choose to love him.Eric Holmstrom — And I just feel like I’m that I'm that man. I'm just I’m so amazed and honored that I get to be a part of this legacy church and that my wife and my family love me. And that, you know, I’m just, I feel very grateful and humbled.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so cool. Well, let’s go back to those early days of the transition. You know, what’s going through your head when you’re following in the footsteps of someone who’s been there for 31 years? That’s a significant time to step in on. What were what were you aware of, you know, in those early days? What was kind of thing that was bubbling around in your head?Eric Holmstrom — Oh, oh my gosh. Okay. The thing bubbling around my head is, am I an idiot? Like why? This is like following Rick Warren. This is like following Billy Graham. Like why? I mean, Pastor Glenn Gunderson is one, just he’s nationally known, internationally. He’s he’s just such an incredible, amazing pastor and leader, and 31 years here at our church, just faithfully leading.Eric Holmstrom — And so why would I want to follow him? Like that, it just, ah you know, so there was a lot of insecurity and just fear around that. I’m thinking through the whole process for anyone that’s gone through a similar process, just feeling very vulnerable, honestly. Eric Holmstrom — I mean, lots of people in our church and different groups were having conversations about me and whether they saw me in this role and, ah you know, that that just felt very exposing and and made me feel very vulnerable.Eric Holmstrom — And at the same time, like really excited, like really the going, wow, like this, this would be a dream. You know, I think for me, I went through kind of a life planning, my wife and I went through a life planning process with an executive pastor of another church and and and a life coach. It was amazing experience. And basically what surfaced for me is, you know, I feel like my calling is to lead every generation to leverage everything they have to advance God’s kingdom.Eric Holmstrom — And so I really kind of grew through my ministry years of going, I really am passionate about leading every generation. And leading every generation to make a mark, to to leave a legacy, to do something great with their lives.Eric Holmstrom — When I gave my life to Christ going into my freshman year of high school, I remember praying, Lord, ah I’ll follow you. I’ll become a Christian, but you’ve got to make it an adventure. Because to me, I felt like, well, maybe being a Christian would be a boring thing. And I felt like God was laughing going, you have no idea what adventure is. Adventure is being a Jesus follower. And and so I just want people to wake up to the adventure of following Christ. Eric Holmstrom — And so I had those mixture of emotions of insecurity, fear. I remember the morning of the congregational vote where, you know, we had done this like six months of work and interviews.Eric Holmstrom — And it all came down to how many people were going to gather in the room, how many people were going to vote.Eric Holmstrom — There there had to be at least in our polity structure, at least two thirds of the people had to vote in favor of me being the next lead pastor. And I’m getting calls and texts from buddies who are like, Eric, we’re cheering you on. Can’t make it tonight. Sorry, man, have this pizza dinner. And I’m like, I’m like, bro, I need you there. Like I need you in the room.Eric Holmstrom — But but anyway, that morning, I was on a run and just feeling so insecure, feeling, you know, Satan was just bringing to mind all my sin, all my shortcomings. And man, the Lord met me. I feel like I got this vision and this picture of Jesus holding my right hand. And I was going, wow. Like it was just powerful. But then I’m like, okay, where is that in the Bible? And then the Lord led me to Isaiah 41:13, “for I am the Lord, your God who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, do not fear. I will help you.”Eric Holmstrom — And was going, okay, if, if, if we’re going to step into this next season and Lord willing, you know, we, we’d love to be here 20, 30 years, however long the Lord would have us here. I believe Jesus is holding my right hand and he is leading me and helping me through our amazing staff and our board and our congregation and our volunteers and everyone involved.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And, you know, for context, a part of the reason why we’re talking to you is because your church has been flagged as one of the fastest growing churches. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — So listeners, like, let’s put this in context here. This transition happened and the church continued to accelerate and reach more people…Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — …which I think can be a fear on the on the side of maybe the departing leaders. They’re like, hey, what’s going to happen? Is this thing going to go sideways? Well, it hasn’t. It’s actually continued to accelerate. So, and I even have seen this even as we’ve you know kind of interacted today. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do you think about honoring what’s happened, so honoring the past…Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — …honoring the leadership and what’s happened there, but still really continuing to lead god lead the church into what God has for the church, into something new. How has that tension, I’ve seen you model it already in this conversation…Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — …but how does that work out you know in your leadership?Eric Holmstrom — Oh, that’s such a great question. And what’s awesome is like, we don’t have to fake it here at Purpose Church because our lead pastor, our former lead pastor, Glenn Gunderson, did such an amazing job creating a church culture here where, you know, he used to always say, ah this church is is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.Eric Holmstrom — He would always talk about, um we’re a church that goes after the one.Eric Holmstrom — And we have ah a… a high celebrate recovery culture here, model here of people come as they are. And and really it’s it’s it’s a beautiful church to be a part of in terms of, you know, we’ve had people on our staff who were homeless sleeping on our church campus and then we offered them a job. They went through recovery. Now they’re leading different ministry areas. Eric Holmstrom — We’ve got people on our staff who were very high up in, in, industries that ah are just really dark and broken. And God has redeemed them and we brought them on our church staff and now they’re working for God’s kingdom and doing great things.Eric Holmstrom — And so, our church culture has always been one of, especially under Pastor Glenn’s leadership, of we want to reach people that are far from God. Our vision is everyone everywhere following Jesus.Eric Holmstrom — We literally mean everyone, wherever they’re at, following Jesus, which means there’s a starting point for their relationship with God. And they continue, that we continue being discipled, continue growing in our relationship So what I’m trying to do is, especially as I started in this role, is honor what’s been, because we’ve got this amazing momentum moving forward because of their hard work.Eric Holmstrom — And because of this church culture that has been created. So we’re trying to honor the past, trying to thank God for the ways that he has led our church and then continue to move into the future and and start new ways of reaching people through some invite Sundays that we’ve done through different sermon series, through reaching out to our neighborhood and our community more.Eric Holmstrom — And so, it’s been an awesome progression and you’re right. We have seen a lot of growth ah while Pastor Glenn was our lead pastor and by God’s grace, he’s continued to grow this church over the last almost two years that I’ve been the lead pastor.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s great. So let’s again, we’re thinking about these early days, you’re in this chair. How did you get clarity on where you should be spending your time? It’s an interesting shift, right?Eric Holmstrom — Yes.Rich Birch — You go from being the person on the team to now you’re responsible for the team, ultimate flexibility, you can make up your own day.Eric Holmstrom — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — How did you figure that out?Eric Holmstrom — Yes. Yes. And that’s the word, that’s the hardest part for me is in this role as lead pastor, I could get involved in anything I wanted to, right? I could schedule a meeting with anyone. And and so I had to quickly discern, okay, what does the church need most from me? And what is it that only I can do and only I should be doing? Eric Holmstrom — And so what kind of quickly surfaced for me is I need to be giving my best energy towards what’s the vision and direction of our church.Eric Holmstrom — What’s the spiritual direction of our church? Now, I’m not just casting vision by myself. I’ve got an amazing executive pastor, Pastor Greg, who he he’s he’s a rock star. I mean, he hired me here at this church. And then through this process, I became his boss. Rich Birch — Oh wow.Eric Holmstrom — And he is just, he is such an amazing, humble, incredible executive pastor.Eric Holmstrom — He’s been a lead pastor before and has no desire to be a lead pastor again. So he is just been, he was such a champion carrying our church through that season of transition and now being an amazing executive pastor.Eric Holmstrom — So, you know, we’re developing vision through time with my executive pastor and our strategic team, our pastors. But at the end of the day, I’m seeking the Lord going, okay, God, taking in all of this inside and time away with you. What’s the vision and direction you’re leading our church in? What’s the spiritual direction? And then for me, a core role that I have here is developing and discipling and training up our staff, our pastors and our leaders. And then, of course, as a pastor, I love doing congregational care and and there is time built into my schedule for that. But honestly, if I’m doing my job best, according to Ephesians 4:12, I’m equipping the saints for ministry. Rich Birch — Yeah.Eric Holmstrom — And so really what I need to be doing is pouring into our staff here, who are then caring for and ministering to our congregation, many of whom I only interact with, you know, many of our, much of our congregation, I only interact with on Sunday morning when I see them or, um you know, if they happen to come forward or we send an email, it’s really our church staff and then our high capacity volunteers who are discipling, mentoring, coaching, walking with the rest of our church. So that’s where I’ve been focusing a lot of my attention.Eric Holmstrom — Also on culture. That’s become a really important one. You know I’m constantly thinking through, okay, what do I need to be focusing on externally for our church?Eric Holmstrom — But then what about internally? How do we be the healthiest we can be as an organization and as a church? And so we did something this last year, we basically took a year and said, we are going to develop ah what we ended up calling an employee spiritual commitment, where we are making some decisions as a staff and a team This is who we are going to be. This is going to be our culture. Eric Holmstrom — Because Rich, I have discovered that the longer you become, longer you’ve been a Christian and and and once you get on staff or become a high capacity volunteer or whatever, Satan likes to trick us into thinking that we become the exception. Eric Holmstrom — And so what I’m telling our staff all the time is you are not the exception. You are the example. Rich Birch — good.Eric Holmstrom — As soon as you join a staff, you start thinking, you know what? I don’t need to tithe here or give, that’s what other people do. I don’t need to serve because I work here at the church. I don’t need to read my Bible for my own intimacy and time with the Lord. I just read my Bible to prepare sermons. I don’t need to be in a life group. That would be hard for me as a church staff member. That’s for ever…. So I’m gonna tell everybody else, you need to be reading your Bible, you need to be tithing, you need to be serving, you to be in a life group, but those things don’t apply for me because I’m the exception.Eric Holmstrom — Wrong. Peter talks about it in 1 Peter 5. Be an example. Be an example the flock.Rich Birch — Love that.Eric Holmstrom — So we made some commitments and we worked on them. We prayed through them. We talked about them with our staff and we shared them and then gave people four months to say, hey, if you’re not about this, that’s okay.Eric Holmstrom — You’re still Christian. You just can’t work here, right? And like try to be as gracious and kind as we as we could be say, hey, we’re not saying you’re not a Christian.Rich Birch — Wow. Yes.Eric Holmstrom — We’re not saying you don’t love Jesus. We’re just saying. These are going to be the commitments we are going to keep as the staff and the leaders of Purpose Church so that we can look at our congregation and say, we want to be an example to you, not an exception to you.Eric Holmstrom — So I’ve been really wrestling with that culture of our staff, culture of our church, and then also kind of vision direction, spiritual direction of of where we’re going and developing.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I’d love to talk a little bit more on the rollout of the commitments. I think that’s that’s amazing. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — And um you know you know you brought it up there. Hey, we’re going to give the four months for you to wrestle through this and think about it. Maybe just double click on that because I think it’s great that you’re calling your team to that.Eric Holmstrom — Okay.Rich Birch — But just give me a little more about well how that went. What would you do different if you’d done it again? What went well? What didn’t go well?Eric Holmstrom — Totally.Rich Birch — What would you advise the clients if they called and said, hey, we’re thinking about doing something like that?Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, so it really started with me and our executive pastor and our chief of operations here. We were in a meeting and we were like, look, we just think it’s important that our whole staff embody these values. And then we asked each other, hey, would we be willing to lose amazing people who are doing amazing work, but don’t necessarily fit with our culture? Like, would we be willing to lose them? And we all looked at each other and said, you know what? It’s worth it. It’s worth it. It feels like the right thing to do. It feels like the step that honors God.Eric Holmstrom — And so it started with that commitment and that that, you know, recognition, like we may lose people in the process. And then, you know, we started to work on it with our pastors and our staff, roll it out. But before we did that too, we we sent it to our lawyer and we sent it to our trustees.Eric Holmstrom — They looked through it. We sent it to our lawyer because they’re like, are we doing anything illegal here? And ah our lawyer wrote back the most beautiful, you know, I guess maybe this is one of the ways you know, like, you’re you’re a lead pastor is like when when when you get an email from your lawyer that’s like really affirming, you start crying.Eric Holmstrom — And so I’m just like, she she she sent me an email, she sent us an email and she said, I stand by all of these commitments. And if I lived in your area, because she’s, think she’s in Alabama. She said, if I lived in your area, I would go to your church because I would want to be led by a staff like this. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Eric Holmstrom — And so it was very, very affirming. So it was important to run it, you know, to collaborate with our pastors, run it through our lawyer, ah run it through our trustees, getting all the input, all those things. And then we shared it with our staff.Eric Holmstrom — I wrote kind of like a cover letter for, hey, here’s my heart behind it. It’s because I want you to be a healthy leader.Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Holmstrom — It’s because I want you to be an example. It’s because I want your work in ministry to be meaningful. And I care about you as a leader. And I care about the health of our church. And then we shared it with the staff and said, hey, you’ve got, I think it was three three months to pray on this. And then we need you to sign this and commit to this as we go into the new year together.Eric Holmstrom — And and and thankfully, everybody committed to it. We had, but but that three to four months also gave opportunity for conversations. And we invited those. You said, hey, there’s anything unclear in this for your situation or your season of life, like, let’s talk about this.Eric Holmstrom — And it was really, really great. It gave us a lot of opportunities to have conversation, clarifying conversations, and to help people not misunderstand things, but to understand the heart and and how it might apply to them.Eric Holmstrom — And it’s been really cool to see our staff… Rich Birch — that’s cool. Eric Holmstrom — …invested more in groups, invested more in setting that example for our church.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. And, you know, what even a great kind of alignment thing to go through as you’re starting to lead, you know, to say, hey, let’s try to define what is going to be really important for us. Rich Birch — So going in a totally different direction. You mentioned it as we kind of flew through there and love invite culture stuff. And so you mentioned invite Sundays. And so that caught my eye. Tell me about those. How have they function? How does that look different than from what you’ve done before? Yeah, just kind of unpack that a little bit for us.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah. Yeah. Well, Rich, I’ve heard on your podcast, which by the way, I’m a big fan of unSeminary. I think your podcast is awesome. And I’m a big fan of seminary. I went to seminary. I went to two different seminaries.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Holmstrom — I love seminary, but I think we can learn so much from each other. And so to everyone listening, I’m just so grateful you’re joining us today. And I’m always getting on our staff here as they’re joining, as they’re, you know, becoming a seminary student, as they’re going to graduate school to, hey, continue to serve in a local church.Eric Holmstrom — When I went to seminary, there were several students, colleagues who were only doing seminary. They were disconnected from the local church. And I’m like, what are you doing? You’re missing out on applying what you’re learning. Rich Birch — It’s so true.Eric Holmstrom — But there’s so much that seminary can’t teach you or doesn’t teach you. And so podcasts like yours, Rich, like the one you have here is absolutely amazing. Eric Holmstrom — One the things you’ve talked about on your podcast is how most people are invited to church by somebody else. So so we do you know promotions on social media and on our website and you know all that stuff. But we wanted to prioritize equipping our church and giving our church family an excuse for to invite their friends and their family to church.Eric Holmstrom — And so we have four or five of these invite Sundays every year where we try to keep them very similar to what somebody would experience on a Sunday morning, just heightened a little bit. So we’ll get bounce houses. We’ll we’ll bring a food truck in. We’ve even kind of experimented with like launching into a series. So we did a spiritual warfare series in the fall called “The War You’re In.”Eric Holmstrom — And it launched on our invite Sunday. And the the the idea was, let’s give these new people who are coming chapter one of this story of this book and see if it piques their interest. But weeks leading up to that, we’re telling our church family, we call them Sunday Funday. how we kind of brand them, but we tell our church family, hey, Sunday Funday is coming up. Don’t come to church alone. Invite your neighbor, invite your friends. Who’s your one more that doesn’t know Jesus? This is a great opportunity to invite them. And and every Sunday here at Purpose Church is a great Sunday to bring somebody. Rich Birch — Right.Eric Holmstrom — I do a salvation message about once a month or so. We’ve seen a lot of people surrender their lives to Christ this year. We’ve had more baptisms this year than we had in the last 10 years. It’s just been incredible. So we’re seeing people take those first steps, but we’re trying to equip our church family. We’re telling them, hey, here’s what we’re talking about.Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Holmstrom — Leading into Easter. I mean, Easter is an invite Sunday for us. It’s a big outreach Sunday for us. So multiple weeks leading up to Easter, I’m telling our church family, this is what I’m talking about. You know, this this Easter, last Easter, our theme was a second chance. So I’m telling our church family, hey, if you’ve got somebody in your life who needs a second chance, this is their Easter. This is the service for them. Eric Holmstrom — So I’m trying to, we’re trying to help our congregation get excited about what’s happening here, equipping them with flyers, talking about what we’ll be talking about, making it an environment through ah worship, greeting the message through the atmosphere and the environment. I mean, I think one of our secret sauces here at Purpose Church is we don’t have the biggest budget, but we’ve got big hearts. Rich Birch — That’s right.Eric Holmstrom — The people of Purpose Church have big hearts. They love people well. They make people feel at home and welcomed here. And so we want to leverage that. We want to see new people coming on our campus and and giving all of us an opportunity to welcome them, love them. And and and we’re seeing people stick around, which has been exciting.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so cool. Love that. Just to call out friends, ah there’s a lot there that you should rip off if you’re listening in. There’s so good. I love that. But one of the things that many churches miss on trying to build invite culture is we we think that like if we kind of surprise our people, that they’ll like that. It’s like, oh, there’s some big thing happening on that day. You’re going to want to invite your friends to be here.Rich Birch — That’s actually not how people think. You need, they need to be very predictable. The fact that you’re saying, this is exactly what we’re going to be teaching on. Do you know someone who asks questions like this, this, and this? You need to get them to be here that day. That is a great best practice there for sure. I love I love that.Eric Holmstrom — Oh, thanks Rich.Rich Birch — As opposed to like, oh, hey, it’s going to be great, um you know which just doesn’t mean anything to people.Eric Holmstrom — Yep. And and we used to do like Easter services at a different location, you know, with more seating.Rich Birch — Right.Eric Holmstrom — But we’ve just gone, man, we want the experience to feel as similar as possible on a Sunday morning. So our church family’s equipped to know what are we going to be talking about? What’s going to be happening? But then for that new person who comes, we want them to feel the familiarity of the parking experience, of dropping off their kids, of where they’re sitting.Eric Holmstrom — And so that as they’re making that decision, “Am I going to come back again?”, they’ll know what that experience is going to be like. And then of course, we have an amazing next steps team that’s following up with these people. That is, we’re getting information. We’re inviting them to scan a QR code to connect with us. We have a gift for them. And then our team is doing a great job of following up with them and helping them take the next steps that they want to take.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, let’s think about the succession question again, you know, going back to that conversation. So for a pastor who might be listening in today, who is, they are the person that is going to be, you know, taking the baton. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — Maybe they’re before the actual transition, but they’re thinking about their first 90 days, 100 days.Eric Holmstrom — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — What would what advice would you give to them? How how would you help them think about their their their initial days as they’re launching off?Eric Holmstrom — Oh, that’s so great. Okay. So the first thing I tried to do was to make a commitment that I’m going to shepherd people and pastor people right where they are. And what I mean by that is there were people in our church who were grieving that our former lead pastor was leaving. And what they didn’t need from me was vision, vision, vision. What they needed from me is, Hey, I get it. I’m I’m sad too. Like I’m going to miss him.Eric Holmstrom — And and so our job was to shepherd and pastor them. And by the way, I told this to all of our staff and our pastors. I said, don’t feel like you have to you know hype me up or or if people are sad that things are changing, that you have to try to convince them. Like there’s that whole change curve. It’s going to take people time and people are on different places. And so shepherding and pastoring people who were really struggling and and having a difficult time with the change, meeting them where they’re at.Eric Holmstrom — There were also people who had recently come to our church. I just met ah a guy last Sunday who’s been coming for like a couple months now and he’s brand new to our church. And he’s like, man, I love it here. Love you, Pastor Eric. And and there was a guy who preached like a couple of weeks ago. I think he like led the church for like 30 years or something. He was great. He was amazing. Eric Holmstrom — I’m like, Oh my goodness. You don’t know pastor Glenn Gunderson at all. You don’t know him.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Holmstrom — And and so what he needs is vision for where we’re going.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Holmstrom — So pastoring and shepherding people right where they are, instead of trying to force everybody into one category.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Eric Holmstrom — Second thing that I just felt the Lord leading me to do that I’ve just continued to do is I start every single sermon the exact same way. I tell our church every single Sunday, I greet the new people and it’s it’s a for everybody, whether you’re new or you’ve been a part of our church forever.Eric Holmstrom — I greet them the same way. I say, I love you. And most importantly, God loves you. And that sort of came out of me asking this question, what do I wanna be remembered for? Like, what’s the thing that at the end of the day, these people are not gonna remember all my sermons, all my points, but if they if they remembered one thing about me as their pastor, what would it be? And it’s that I would want them to know I love them and that God loved them.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Eric Holmstrom — And 1 Thessalonians 2:8 really like has been my ministry motto. Paul says, because we loved you so much, we cared for you, we shared the gospel and we shared our lives as well. Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Holmstrom — So Paul’s talking about this this ministry that’s born out of a deep love for the people that you’re pastoring. And so I I’m always praying right before I preach. I pray the same thing. God, would you put your message in me like a fire in my bones? And would you help me to see these people the way you see them and to feel about them the way you feel about them?Rich Birch — That’s so good.Eric Holmstrom — And I’ve had moments when I’ve been preaching where it’s like, I just feel like the Spirit of God deposits into my heart his incredible love for them. And I start tearing up over something.Eric Holmstrom — But but I tell them every Sunday, I love you. And most importantly, God loves you. So that when I give them a convicting word, a challenging word, something where I’m calling them to a higher standard, they know it’s coming from a pastor that doesn’t want to beat them up or that doesn’t care about them or is trying to build some platform.Eric Holmstrom — It comes from a pastor who loves them and who is deeply, deeply convinced that God loves them. So I’m sharing that with them um each Sunday. And I’ve heard from a lot of people that that that really resonates and and feels significant for them.Rich Birch — Yeah it’s good. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah. Rich Birch — I think that’s great. I think the the thing to point out there that I think is, I just think is amazing is good is I think oftentimes we when we think about that kind of transition we can go to the like immediate the tactics or the whatever you know like oh make sure you meet with all these people or whatever. And what I’ve seen in churches that this transition has gone well is there’s a humility with both leaders, which both of you, which you have described him in these conversations today, like that, you know, when Glenn passed it to you, there was ah that humble moment. And he obviously continues to, you know, he gave some space, but has continued to handle himself in a humble way.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — You’re handling yourself with humility as well. And, you know, the, I like that you’re pushing on really ah a deeper issue, which is like, do you love these people at the end of the day? You know you’re not taking over some organization this is a family that you’re called to lead. And so I mean I think that’s just so good. That’s fantastic. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah. And then, Rich, I would just want to say too, in addition to that is then starting to cast some vision and direction for, okay, where is God taking this church? So one of the things we did is we started to a new rhythm of Vision Sunday once a year. So we actually, it’s coming up in a couple Sundays. We try to do it right before summer. We do it actually, it aligns with our fiscal budget year. So one of the things that we tried to make a a commitment around is, hey, we’re gonna be a vision-driven church. We’re gonna have vision-driven budgeting. So it’s not just, hey, can I get $1,000 more than last year or whatever? It’s it’s what’s the vision that God has given you for your ministry, for your department, and we’re budgeting around that. Eric Holmstrom — But that starts with me as I’m with my team, I’m a collaborative visionary. And as I’m hearing from the Lord, what’s the vision and direction for our church? And so ah first Sunday of June, we do a big vision Sunday where we celebrate what God has been doing. And where we cast vision for the next year. And so that’s part of what I’m doing too.Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Holmstrom — And what I did early on and continue to do is to keep vision in front of our church of where are we going? What things are we starting? What are we praying and hoping to see the Lord do? And what’s their part in that?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. Any final words just as we wrap up today’s discussion?Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, absolutely. Well, I would just say that the last thing I would want to say is I think as as a lead pastor or, and if preaching is a high priority for you, recognizing that we do so much leadership through our preaching. Rich Birch — That’s the truth.Eric Holmstrom — And so that that became a really important thing for me in terms of figuring out, okay, how do I go about writing the sermon? How do I edit the sermon? How do I prepare and practice the sermon and then ultimately get some evaluation on the sermon?Eric Holmstrom — And so that’s been a journey for me of of learning how to do that well. And I think some of the things I’ve I’ve learned along the way is there’s parts of it you don’t love and that are more challenging. For me, it’s the editing. Eric Holmstrom — And I think a lot of preachers and pastors are probably like that. You know, on Mondays, I’ll start going, man, I think I only have a 15 minute sermon here. By Thursday, I’m like, I’ve got an 80 minute sermon here. And so the the I think the difference between good sermons and great sermons is great sermons are are are ones where we cut out the good stuff. It’s all good stuff, but we cut out the good stuff to make enough room for the great stuff. Eric Holmstrom — And then getting people’s feedback, you know? So after i write the sermon, I edit it, I still practice my sermons even before delivering them I have a rhythm of, they gotta be done by Thursdays because I wanna enjoy some of my weekend. And so I’m practicing my sermons, but then, after preaching my sermons, I have kind of an evaluation form that I give different people in our church to give me direct feedback because there’s things I’m not seeing.Eric Holmstrom — And especially leading up into Easter and some of these invite Sundays, I’ll actually deliver my sermon to several people on our staff. They’ll give me direct feedback. And sometimes it’s not what I want to hear. Sometimes the story I’m so excited about, they’re going, hey, you know what? I don’t think it fits here. Or and my sermons have always been better because of their feedback.Eric Holmstrom — And so that’s something I’m really passionate about is helping. Rich Birch — That’s good. Eric Holmstrom — We started a preacher’s club. That’s part of the, one of the things that I’m trying to do in terms of developing our ministry leaders. And so we started a preacher’s club where we meet once a month and, everyone gives, you know, or one or two people will give a 10 minute sermon and we give each other feedback. I share with them some tips and tricks, things I’m learning, and we watch other sermons and evaluate them. Eric Holmstrom — And so ah that that’s been an important aspect, I think, for me is really is realizing that that for for our church, 90% of our community interacts with me on a Sunday morning through my sermon. And so I want to be really intentional to shepherd and pastor and care for them and to give them the very best that I can. And so that’s been some of the process for me. Rich Birch — So good. That’s, that’s fantastic. That’s like a little preaching clinic you just gave us there. That’s so good. So many good things to unpack there. This has been a fantastic conversation, Eric. I really appreciate your time today. If, where do we want to send people online? If they want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them?Eric Holmstrom — Oh man, well, you could go to our church webpage, purposechurch.com. We’re on Instagram, Purpose Pomona. You could follow me on Instagram, eric.h.holmstrom. Good luck spelling that. But I would love to you know I would love to interact with you on Instagram. That’s kind of the only place that I’m at. But yeah, thank you. And Rich, this has been a really rich conversation rich rich conversation I appreciate you, man.Rich Birch — Nice.Eric Holmstrom — And I’m I'm grateful for your ministry.Rich Birch — Thanks so much for being here today.

Melanie Redd, president of Melanie Redd Hope Ministry and bestselling author, for a candid conversation about prayer as a first response rather than a last resort. Melanie shares her powerful "indicator light" analogy—how worry and anxiety serve as warning signals that it's time to take our cares to the Creator—and recounts the harrowing story of her brother's unexpected brain bleed, revealing how gratitude became her "secret weapon" during eleven days of crisis. The discussion explores why God is often the last one we talk to when He should be the first, how to redeem sleepless nights through prayer, and practical wisdom for parents of prodigals, including Melanie's motto to "say little and pray much." Drawing from Scripture and personal testimony, including the touching story of Billy Graham welcoming his wayward daughter home, Melanie encourages listeners that God is for them, His timing is trustworthy even when it doesn't match our own, and no circumstance is beyond the reach of a praying parent. This show originally aired in October of 2024.

As America celebrates its 250th anniversary, singer Steve Amerson encourages Christians to pray for the nation and for the men and women serving in Washington, D.C. Known by some as “America's Tenor,” Steve has sung on more than 175 feature films and has also ministered through music at Billy Graham Crusades.Twice a month, Steve travels to Capitol Hill to help lead worship in Statuary Hall and encourage members of Congress through prayer and handwritten notes. Listen as he shares why he believes the greatest battle in Washington is spiritual, not political—and how Christians can encourage their representatives during this historic milestone. Connect with us through email at gps@billygraham.org or on Facebook at Billy Graham Radio. Learn more about Steve's ministry in DC at his website, TheWordontheHill.org.If you'd like to know more about beginning a relationship with Jesus Christ, or deepening the faith you already have, visit FindPeacewithGod.net.If you'd like to pray with someone, call our Billy Graham 24/7 Prayer Line at 855-255-7729. 

He’s known for his powerful singing voice. From Hollywood studios to platforms beside Billy Graham and Chuck Swindoll, Steve Amerson has carved out an unparalleled musical legacy. But on Chris Fabry Live, you’ll hear about a quiet ministry of words he has on Capitol Hill. As we hurtle toward the 250th anniversary of the country, don’t miss a conversation with Steve Amerson on Chris Fabry Live. Featured resource:The Word on the Hill ministry June thank you gift:One Blood: Parting Words to the Church on Race and Love by John M. Perkins Chris Fabry Live is listener-supported. To support the program, click here.Become a Back Fence Partner: https://moodyradio.org/donateto/chrisfabrylive/partnersSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What does it take to stay joyful, resilient, and full of life at 83 years old? In this heartfelt episode of the Visibly Fit Podcast, I sit down with my dad, Ace from Texas, to talk about overcoming adversity, raising a family, navigating health challenges, and finding purpose through faith.From surviving polio and spinal meningitis as a child to enduring multiple surgeries throughout life, Dad shares the mindset that helped him keep moving forward. We talk about parenting, family values, faith, gratitude, aging well, and why a positive attitude may be one of the most underrated health habits.This conversation is full of wisdom, laughter, and a few tears. Whether you're looking for encouragement in your health journey, seeking parenting advice, caring for aging parents, or simply wanting a reminder of what truly matters in life, this episode is for you.Podcast Chapters[00:00] Introduction & Why I Invited My Dad[04:34] Meet Ace From Texas[06:07] Surviving Polio & Childhood Health Challenges[08:12] Multiple Surgeries & Staying Positive[10:25] Marine Corps Lessons on Discipline[13:00] Growing Up Without a Father[14:15] Grandparents, Ranch Life & Life Skills[16:02] Health Habits, Gardens & Fresh Food[18:04] The Power of Joy and a Positive Attitude[20:00] Family: Life's Greatest Reward[21:25] Raising Two Daughters[24:20] Advice for Anyone Facing Health Challenges[25:51] Billy Graham, Faith & Spiritual Influence[26:55] Looking Ahead at 83[28:00] Final ThoughtsResources mentioned:• Visibly Fit Podcast EP 15 with My Mom, Pat Darby P.S. If you're just checking out the show to see if it's a good fit for you, welcome!If you're really serious about becoming Visibly Fit, you'll get the best experience if you download the worksheets available at https://wendiepett.com/visiblyfitpodcast.

What do evangelicals mean when they talk about “supporting Israel” — and how did Jewish–Christian dialogue evolve from centuries of suspicion into the conversations happening today?In the third installment of our series built around the Last Questions of Faith community lecture, host Jean Geran welcomes historian and author Dan Hummel for a wide-ranging conversation on Christian Zionism, evangelical theology, and the hard, patient work of talking across big religious differences. Dan traces the roots of Christian support for Israel — from post-Holocaust theology and the Second Vatican Council's Nostra Aetate to Billy Graham's 1969 meeting with the American Jewish Committee — and explains how dispensationalism shapes the way many evangelicals read Israel into biblical prophecy.Along the way: why Christian Zionists are an organized minority rather than the evangelical majority, how the U.S.–Israel relationship has been deliberately cultivated over decades, and what a more generous, substantive interfaith dialogue — one that includes the more conservative voices in each tradition — might actually look like.GUEST BIODan Hummel is a historian of U.S. religion and the author of The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle Over the End Times Shaped a Nation (Eerdmans, 2023) and Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and U.S.-Israeli Relations. He is the Director of the Lumen Center at the SL Brown Foundation, and is a co-host of American Evangelicals: A History Podcast. His research and writing focus on Christian Zionism, evangelical theology, and the history of U.S.–Israel relations.RESOURCES & LINKSBook — The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism (Eerdmans, 2023), foreword by Mark NollBook — Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and U.S.-Israeli RelationsMentioned: Amy-Jill Levine (A.J. Levine), New Testament & Jewish studies scholar; earlier in this seriesMentioned: Nostra Aetate (Second Vatican Council, 1965); E.P. Sanders; N.T. Wright; Marvin Wilson, Our Father AbrahamSend us Fan MailCONNECT WITH USSubscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave ConourEdited by Dave Conour

Many Christians dismiss the evidence from near-death experiences on biblical or theological grounds by quoting Hebrews 9:27, citing soul sleep, worrying about new age associations, or treating any extra-biblical vision as automatically suspect. But are those objections actually warranted by Scripture? Dr. Steve Miller returns to walk through twelve of the most common biblical and theological objections Christians raise against NDEs. CHECK OUT: Logos Bible 60 Day Free Trial (https://logos.com/mcdowell) 00:00 Intro 01:10 How should Christians approach NDE and deathbed accounts? 10:13 The Billy Graham and Dr. Randy Steer accounts 17:46 Objection #1 — Some NDEs report false doctrines 21:40 Objection #2 — NDEs lead people to new age teachings 28:23 Objection #3 — Hebrews teaches we die only once 34:15 Objection #4 — Unbelievers should experience judgment, not love 39:35 Objection #5 — NDEs are more consistent with new age than Christianity 45:00 Objection #6 — Visions are no longer needed after the New Testament 47:47 Objection #7 — Experiencers see their own gods 49:51 Objection #8 — The Bible teaches soul sleep 59:42 Objection #9 — Faith should come only from Scripture 57:00 Objection #10 — No one can go to heaven before death 59:36 Objection #11 — Experiencers may be demonically deceived 1:01:01 Objection #12 — There's no biblical precedent for NDEs 1:02:04 Common theological assumptions worth re-examining *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Suffering. Grief. Disappointment. Loss. Any one of these can shake us to our core. So how are we supposed to trust God when everything seems to go wrong? On this episode, Anne Graham Lotz (daughter of Billy Graham) and her daughter, Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright, walk through the story of Joseph—a man who experienced betrayal, false accusation, and unfair circumstances that turned his life upside down. So how did Joseph remain steadfast in his faith? Anne and Rachel-Ruth explain how God's presence brings peace even in life's deepest pits. You'll discover why suffering is never wasted and how God uses even our hardest seasons to guide us, grow us, and bring about His greater purpose. SHOW NOTES: 413Podcast.com/408  Read the episode TRANSCRIPT in the show notes. Get my weekly email, Java with Jennifer, to be notified when a new podcast episode releases. Subscribe HERE.

Episode Summary: Have you ever wondered why trauma seems to leave lasting marks on your mind, heart, and even relationships? In today's conversation, I sit down with Dr. J. Otis Ledbetter, author of Set Free, Released from the Damage of Trauma, to uncover how we can overcome the destructive effects of trauma and move towards God's peace and restoration. Drawing from scripture and real-life experiences, Dr. Ledbetter reveals how even biblical heroes wrestled with trauma and how we can learn from their stories to create tranquil paths of healing and wholeness. If you've been searching for hope after loss, abuse, crisis, or disappointment, this episode will encourage you that freedom is possible. Today, we're going to be talking about how to overcome the lasting damage of trauma through God's word. Quotables from the episode: Trauma is not the event. Trauma is the chronic reaction to that event. Trauma is ongoing. An event can happen and then it can be in your past. You may never forget it, but it no longer identifies you. And it no longer points the direction that you should go, whether life or death. The first emotion that somebody faces after a traumatic event is fear. Fear leads to anxiety. Anxiety leads to mood swings. Mood swings will lead you into isolation. Isolation brings the worst. It brings hopelessness. And it brings despair, and loss of purpose. The truth is what heals. God does not heal deceit. He heals truth. The one word for parents to pass a heritage to their children their faith, is intentionality. Just do something. Don't think it can be done by accident. Be intentional. The trauma of the unknown is, I think, the most garden variety trauma you can have. Don't leave out the spiritual because there is a God who loves you and he is a God of hope. God knows us so intimately that he knows what we need and willingly provides it. God says, come to me if you're heavy laden. I'll give you rest. He didn't say I'll rescue you. He's not going to rescue you. But he's going to give you a place of rest. Scripture References: Isaiah 61:1—“He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound.” Psalm 40:2 (NIV) – “He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand.” Joel 2:25 (ESV) – “I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten.” Recommended Resources: Set Free, Released from the Damage of Trauma by Dr. J. Otis Ledbetter Sacred Scars: Resting in God’s Promise That Your Past Is Not Wasted by Dr. Michelle Bengtson The Hem of His Garment: Reaching Out To God When Pain Overwhelms by Dr. Michelle Bengtson Today is Going to be a Good Day: 90 Promises from God to Start Your Day Off Right by Dr. Michelle Bengtson Breaking Anxiety’s Grip: How to Reclaim the Peace God Promises by Dr. Michelle Bengtson Breaking Anxiety’s Grip Free Study Guide Free PDF Resource: How to Fight Fearful/Anxious Thoughts and Win Hope Prevails: Insights from a Doctor’s Personal Journey Through Depression by Dr. Michelle Bengtson Hope Prevails Bible Study by Dr. Michelle Bengtson Free Webinar: Help for When You’re Feeling Blue Social Media Links for Host and Guest: Connect with Dr. J. Otis Ledbetter: Website / Facebook / X Connect with Dr. Bengtson: Order Book Sacred Scars / Order Book The Hem of His Garment / Order Book Today is Going to be a Good Day / Order Book Breaking Anxiety’s Grip / Order Book Hope Prevails / Website / Blog / Facebook / Twitter (@DrMBengtson) / LinkedIn / Instagram / Pinterest / YouTube / Podcast on Apple Guest: Otis Ledbetter lives in Clovis, California, with his wife Gail. He is an author, conference speaker, and the Lead Pastor at Sonrise Church. He holds a Doctor of Ministry degree from Liberty University’s Theological Seminary. He and Gail have three grown children and twelve grandchildren. He has written numerous articles for magazines and specializes in Heritage Builders workshops nationally and internationally, which teach parents and grandparents the spiritual, emotional, and social components of the heritage they are passing to the next generation. His books include Your Heritage, In the Secret Place, Soul Hunger : Satisfy Your Heart’s Deepest Longing, and his latest 2022 release Set Free: Released from the Damage of Trauma. He has been featured on numerous radio and television broadcasts. His book Your Heritage was distributed as a premium offer on Billy Graham’s Hour of Decision. Hosted By: Dr. Michelle Bengtson Audio Technical Support: Ashton Bengtson Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

In this roundtable discussion, Chad Seabright, Jeremiah Bolich (JBM), and Pastor Jared sit down to dive deep into what it truly means to be a church that is spirit-led and biblically fed.The guys open up about their radical testimonies—from smoking cigarettes at a Billy Graham crusade to walking out of addiction—proving that the Holy Spirit doesn't call the qualified, He qualifies the called. They unpack the dangerous trap of "ministering out of insecurity," exposing how easy it is to learn the mechanics of ministry while losing intimacy with the Presence.Finally, Pastor Jared breaks down the ultimate framework for Kingdom identity: Sonship vs. Servanthood, while Jeremiah shares a profound, pre-fall perspective on why God created the ultimate military-grade asset to rescue man from deficiency—our wives.Connect With The Ministries

In Episode 496 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb open with a rich discussion on the theology of congregational singing — including the Trinity Psalter Hymnal, the Getty's Sing!, and why psalm-singing belongs at the heart of Christian worship. The main event, however, is the first installment of their study of the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14–30). Tony and Jesse argue that this parable is widely misread as a lesson in personal productivity or spiritual gift deployment, when in fact its center of gravity is entirely eschatological and theological: the wicked servant's failure is not financial incompetence — it is a catastrophic misunderstanding of who the master is, and therefore, who he himself is as a servant of that master. Key Takeaways The parable is eschatological, not motivational. Situated in Matthew 25 as the second of three eschatological parables in the Olivet Discourse, the Parable of the Talents answers the disciples' question about the sign of Christ's coming — not a general lesson about using your abilities for God. "Talents" refers to an enormous monetary sum, not personal giftedness. A single talent represented roughly 20 years of a laborer's wages. Even the least-endowed servant received an immense, unearned gift — which makes the wicked servant's inaction all the more indefensible. The wicked servant's problem is theological, not financial. He doesn't bury the talent out of ignorance or fear alone — he actively mischaracterizes the master as exploitative and unjust. His failure is a failure of theology: he does not know who his master is. The commendation "Well done, good and faithful servant" is the basic reward of every believer, not a tiered prize for the most productive. The five-talent and two-talent servants receive identical commendations, suggesting the measure is proportional faithfulness, not absolute output. Faithful stewardship is active, not passive. Both faithful servants are marked by immediacy and energetic engagement. The parable does not explain how they doubled their talents because the mechanics are not the point — their disposition of active, risk-taking faithfulness is. The parable resists works-righteousness readings. Whether one is Augustine or an anonymous deathbed convert, every justified believer enters into the same joy of the master. The parable is not a theology of graduated heavenly rewards but a distinction between those who understand their master and those who do not. The talents represent the stewardship of the Gospel and the Kingdom itself. The master entrusting his servants with his property is a picture of Christ entrusting the church with the message of salvation — ownership remains with the master, the servants are stewards, not proprietors. Key Concepts The Wicked Servant's Problem Is Who He Thinks the Master Is The most common misreading of this parable locates the wicked servant's failure in laziness or timidity — he was simply too afraid to act. But Tony Arsenal argues compellingly that the servant's own words expose something far more serious. He says, "I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow." This is not a confession of fear; it is an accusation. The servant has constructed a theology of his master as an exploitative, unjust overseer who doesn't deserve a return. What he catastrophically misses is that the very possession of 20 years' worth of wages — an unearned, unimaginable gift — is the master sowing into him. His refusal to act is, at its root, a refusal to acknowledge the master's generosity and authority. This is the parable's most penetrating theological edge. "Well Done" Is for Every Believer, Not Just the Most Productive One of the episode's most pastorally significant observations is Tony's argument that the commendation "Well done, good and faithful servant — enter into the joy of your master" is not reserved for spiritual high-achievers. Because the five-talent and two-talent servants receive word-for-word identical commendations despite wildly different absolute returns, the logical entailment is that the one-talent servant, had he been faithful, would have received the same words. This means the commendation is not calibrated to productivity — it is the basic inheritance of every believer who enters glory. The soul-winner and the deathbed convert, Augustine and the unknown faithful, all hear the same welcome. The parable is therefore not teaching a graduated hierarchy of heavenly reward, but a binary distinction: those who know their master and act accordingly, and those who do not. The Parable Cannot Be Detached from Its Eschatological Context Jesse Schwamb is careful to anchor the parable in its literary and theological context: this is the second of three eschatological parables in Matthew 25, all part of the Olivet Discourse, all delivered in direct response to the disciples' question about the sign of Christ's return and the end of the age. Detaching the Parable of the Talents from that frame — and reading it instead as a general productivity principle or a theology of spiritual gifts — drains it of what Jesse calls its "gravity." The master going away and returning after a long time is a direct image of the ascended Christ and his parousia. The servants' task during the interval is not self-improvement or career stewardship — it is watchful, active discipleship in the time between the first and second comings. Everything in the parable, including the staggering sums of money, is calibrated to that eschatological frame. Memorable Quotes The real difference is that the former servants understood that their master had trusted them with a task and expected something of them, and the unfaithful, wicked, lazy servant had a total misunderstanding of who the master was — and therefore what his role as the master's servant was. That's the point of this parable. — Tony Arsenal Well done, good and faithful servant — that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get. That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world... you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, 'I trust Jesus.' — Tony Arsenal God's measure of faithfulness is proportional, not absolute. The two-talent servant is not judged by the five-talent standard. He is judged by what he received. — Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get, right? That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world, whether you are the most, you know, the most sanctified Christian who's ever lived, whether you are, the most amazing person and millions of people have come to faith because of your ministry, you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, I trust Jesus." Right. And they've produced no converts, no ministry, and maybe no one even knows that they were justified, because in their final moments before the lights went out, they trusted in Jesus, right? They hear the same well done, good and faithful servant when they enter into glory. Welcome to episode 496 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:19] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother.  [00:01:21] Parable Teaser [00:01:21] Jesse Schwamb: You know, the parables just keep coming for us, like we've said. And on this episode, to, just to tee it up, to whet everybody's appetites, we've got three servants, one absent master, an uncomfortable amount of money. What could go wrong? Yeah. As it turns out, quite a bit, especially if you're the kind of person who responds to divine generosity by finding the nearest shovel. So we're gonna get to all of that in this, what I call, this now sandwich of eschatological parables or teachings of Jesus in Matthew 25. So hopefully you're curious, hopefully you're stoked. But you can go put your thumb right in the scriptures there, because you're gonna meet us there very, very, very, very shortly. But first we got business. It's always the business we must do, the part of the podcast where we affirm with something or deny against something. And as always, I'm really curious what you have, and now I understand you have a list, or you're keeping a list. So- I do ... never again will there be something like that falls to the cutting room floor, brothers and sisters. Tony is always gonna have for us whatever was- ... what came to his brilliant mind as an affirmation or denial at any point, day or night.  [00:02:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Do you, Jesse, do you ever have... I know the answer to this question is going to be yes- Yeah. That's good ... but I'm gonna ask it- All right ... mostly for rhetorical effect here. This is good podcasting.  [00:02:38] Psalm 67B Praise [00:02:38] Tony Arsenal: Do you have, do you have those situations where, like, the, the so- a song hits you, and it's just, like, the right combination of words, but also the right combination of, like, musicality?  [00:02:49] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.  [00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Where it just, like, it just, it just feels- For sure like, right and good in every part of your being. So- All the time, yep ... I, I'm affirming, um, th- this is like the most Presbyterian thing ever. I'm affirming the, the arrangement in the Trinity, uh, psalter hymnal for Psalm 67B. Now, I'm not gonna try to sing it for you, but I wanna read the words, because obviously it's, it's a paraphrase of a psalm. So, like, that's the first thing. Like, people, like, calm down. Like, it's okay to sing paraphrases. It's okay to sing. No one is actually singing the Hebrew psalms. Right. Amen. So, like, just calm down a little bit. Amen. Uh, there is a place for us to dedicate specific focus to psalms and songs that are from the psalms, but that can be something like Better Is One Day. Like, that's a song from a psalm. Anyway, that's a whole different, that's a whole different thing. Yes, I'm affirming psalm singing. Uh, yes, I'm denying overly rigid understandings of what that is. But here's the words for Psalm 67, Setting B. That's important It's, "O God, show mercy to us and bless us with your grace and cause to shine upon us the brightness of your face, so that the whole world over may truly know your way and so that your salvation all nations see displayed. O God, let peoples praise you. Let all the peoples praise. Let nations come rejoicing and songs of gladness rise, raise." Then, um, stanza two, "For you will judge the peoples with perfect equity. To nations of the whole Earth a governor you'll be. O God, let the peoples praise you. Let all the peoples praise. The Earth has brought its bounty throughout its harvest days.  [00:04:24] Why Sing Psalms [00:04:24] Tony Arsenal: Since God our God will bless us, yes, God will blessing send, that all the Earth may fear Him to its remotest end." Now, there are lots of really great, uh, theologically sound, edifying hymns and worship choruses, but there's just something about the Psalms, right? It's inspired- Um- ... it's perfect. Again, like I said, nobody is singing the actual Hebrew Psalms, or even, I shouldn't say nobody, most people are not singing, like, the Psalms from the ESV, right? These are almost all paraphrases. They're, they're translations. But there's just something about the Psalms that I have grown so much to appreciate since joining a Presbyterian church. That's not to say other traditions don't sing Psalms in their own right, and again, like, we would sing Better Is One Day and other songs that were based on Psalms. Um, even, like, real direct translations or real direct versions of Psalms, like Better Is One Day or Create In Me A Clean Heart, there's all sorts of them. But there's just something about singing the Psalms, and this particular musical setting, it's triumphant, but not in the, like, fanfare kind of triumphant. Do you know what I mean, Jesse? Like- Mm-hmm ... it's, it's a triumphant melody, and it has, like, really interesting rises and falls and... So I, I'm gonna probably try to put this at the end of the episode. So listen. Hopefully I'll get the whole thing. Let me just, let me just do this. Hold on a second. It's just gorgeous. It's just beautiful. So I, I, I don't know what it was this morning. Uh, it's, I wasn't, like, promo- particularly emotional. It didn't, like, make me cry. Yeah. But all of that's fine. Like, I've been brought to tears in worship before, and that's, that's all good and well. There was just something about it that resonated, and I was like, "This is just good." Like, this is just good music. It's good singing. Something about hearing, uh, the whole congregation singing together. Like, it was just beautiful. It was just a beautiful moment. So if you are not in a psalm-singing church, first of all, why aren't you in a psalm-singing church? Uh, no worship leader on Earth, no, no person who is worth... Uh, when I say worship leader, I mean the person who's responsible for leading musical worship. No one who's leading worshipful music, worshipful? Worship music, if you approach them and say, "I would like to sing more songs that are based on the Psalms," if they say, "We don't wanna sing Psalms here," then you just go somewhere else. Like, someone who tells you, like, "We don't wanna s- we don't wanna sing God's Word," that doesn't make any sense to me.  [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:06:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, now again, like, there's a way to do it. Sometimes musically they're challenging, especially if you're singing out of something like the hymnal. But again, there are plenty of really good modern style songs and hymn style songs that are either based on the Psalms or are paraphrases, very similar to what you get in the, in the Trinity Psalter Hymnal. Or most, most people who are leading in musical worship are competent enough to just sort of take the sheet music and figure out how to do it on guitar or figure out how to play it on piano. Um, they're not that difficult. So you will be edified if you do this. Your church will be edified. There's probably a lot of people out there responsible for musical worship that actually would really like to do this, and they're kind of probably, like, just waiting for that nudge, so you may even be benefiting them. But yeah, this, this psalm is beautiful. It's just a gorgeous arrangement, and it's, it's perfect, inspired words. Really was a, just a, a balm to my soul this morning.  [00:07:51] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. And o- of course, a lot of that is still happening, which is such a glorious gift to the church. The couple of times that I've had the privilege of writing music for my own church has been right from the scriptures, and for me recently that was, like, Ephesians 1 and Psalm 16. And that's mainly because, like, as a lyricist, I'm not that creative, and I'd rather go direct to the source. And all those end up being a paraphrase, like you said, anyway. Es- especially if you wanna get turn of phrase or if you wanna have a little bit of rhyming, which is always a beautiful thing. I love the Psalter, and my, my hot take on that is I sometimes find that I like, I don't wanna call them, like, the alternate, but, like, the other secondary arrangements-  Yeah and  lyrics better. I don't know why. I don't think that's purposeful, of course. It's probably just my taste. But I always find them to be, like, super fire. I, I don't know why. The, the B and C versions always kinda grab me, especially if... And here's another thing that I appreciate about the Psalter, as you know, is sometimes those B or C versions will be written in an alternate key or a minor key. Yeah. And that's even more awesome, because there's not a lot of, let's say, like, cla- I don't wanna say classic. Classic slash contemporary, uh, Christian music or wors- quote-unquote worship music that's written in minor keys. But it's good to lament, as we've talked about before. So- Yeah ... you're gonna get that full breath and scope in the Psalter there. [00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:09:07] Beyond Music Styles [00:09:07] Tony Arsenal: A- and, you know, maybe let me put in one more little plug here. Um- I am not one of those people that is gonna say that there's like a particular style of music that's more godly than another. I've heard people try to make arguments that there's like certain kinds of rhythms or certain kinds of like beats that are- Right either, either more godly or somehow demonic or less godly. Um, I think there might be an argument to be made that some styles of worship are not suited well for congregational singing, so they may not be appropriate for like a, a congregational worship service. Like, you're probably not gonna go in and do a lot of hip hop and have the congregation be able to like stick with you. Right. That doesn't mean that you can't worship God through that or that it somehow is less like intrinsically beautiful. But, um, there are a lot of Let me just put it this way. In modern contemporary Western Christianity, uh, there's a lot of songs that are basically just the same thing musically. You know, you'll find, um, if you go to, like, YouTube, and, and maybe, like, be careful, 'cause sometimes some of these are, they're funny but they're a little bit crass. But if you look up, like, a video about how, like, every song is Pachel Bell's Canon. Right. Right? Every song follows the same basic arrangement of chords, and this gets even more pronounced when you're talking about modern worship music or contemporary mu- worship music, because it's designed to be able to be very simple and very easily played. Um, a lot of times worship directors are not super classically trained. Um, you think of, like, the youth pastor with the guitar around the campfire. Like, those kinds of songs have to be easy, 'cause they're not, like, classically trained guitar players. They probably picked up a chord book and figured out how to play a couple easy songs like Jesus, Lover of My Soul and things like that. That's how I learned how to play guitar. That's the extent of my skills, so I'm not, I'm not banging on that person. Um, but there are a lot, there's a lot more to music. Um, there's a lot more to singing, and there's a lot more to choral music than, you know, GCDC kind of like worship courses. Uh, and singing something like the Psalter, or even just singing out of a good hymnal- Right will actually expand your musical horizons. And there's something to be said about the creativity of our God being reflected in the creativity of His people that I do think we miss out on when we are locked into really simplistic worship styles. Um, again, like, I interpret Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to mean, like, sing in the vernacular of the people. Um, and I, you know, that's a different episode. We can talk about that sometime. But th- that, that requires the songs to be singable, and I think sometimes, uh, sometimes some of the song- some of the Psalters, some of the songs in the Psalter hymnals, and sometimes hymnals in general, are very difficult to sing. And so I think a congregation, the people leading in music need to be thoughtful of that. But I think you would do well to, like, open your horizons a little bit to something a little bit more challenging and a little bit off the beaten path. Like, this melody, I don't know the chords behind it. It may not be anything crazy, but that, like, musicality and that, that sort of, like, melody is not a typical... And this might be why it resonated with me. It's not a typical kind of melody you're gonna find in contemporary music. Um, it's, it's very different. It's older. It's more classically styled. The, it's, it's meant to sort of bring you up to these crescendos in ways that modern music is not necessarily. So enough about that. I don't know a lot about music theory, so I might be totally wrong and, and- ... people might be rolling their eyes. But I, I do think that there's something to it. Like, a lot of the older hymns- utilize chord progressions and melodies and harmonies and things like that that we're just not used to. You're not gonna get that listening to, you know, even something like, like the more musical kind, uh, more technically proficient music like something like Bethel or Hillsong, which is at times musically very good. Uh, I don't know that I would recommend listening to it, but the music is actually, like, technically very good in some instances. Uh, even there you're not gonna find a lot of this stuff. So instead of going there for, like, really nice sounding musical worship, just go to something like the Trinity Psalter app. You know, for $10 on a- on your iPhone you can sing with it. Um, yeah, enough about that. I, I, I could talk about how great the Psalms are and how great psalm singing is for an entire episode. We should do that episode- We should ... when we're done with the parables, 'cause I know we've done a lot of episodes on, like, uh, on, on, like, the regulative principle and- Right I, I think we're still both in the same spot that, like- Right ... exclusive psalmody is probably not where we would land. Right. But I think I'm coming to the conviction that the psalms should have a much greater portion of our worship diet, uh- Hmm ... than they do in most churches. Um, and I really only came to that conviction when I was in a church where psalm singing was the norm. Uh, I know that we try to have at least one s- one canonical psalm for every single worship service. Usually there's multiple, but, um, even in a, a, a setting where we normally wouldn't be so focused on that, we still try to have at least one, and it's been a, a really huge edifying thing to my soul.  [00:14:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I absolutely love that. You'll find no complaint from me on that. I think that that's a good reminder for all of us.  [00:14:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:14:14] Book Sing Recommendation [00:14:14] Tony Arsenal: Jesse, what do you have?  [00:14:15] Jesse Schwamb: Well, it's, we're not gonna stop this conversation, just so you know. Because we don't sync up on these things ever, but it just so happens that I'm affirming with a book that it's a really simple primer on congregational singing-  There you go that has  long been on my list and overdue to read, and I am coming in hot with a recommendation for this, and that is the book entitled Sing! How Worship Transforms Your Life, Family, and Church by Keith and Kristyn Getty. And really, it covers so many of the things that you already talked about. I, I think at the foremost, it's a reminder that God cares whether in what we sing, but he does not mind how well we sing. Yes. But it is, like, the, this... What's true is that our voices might not be of a professional standard, but they are of a confessional standard. Yeah. And so it is incumbent upon every Christian to sing. And if you need just, like, a little bit of inspiration, so to speak, or a reminder of why that's important, I highly commend this book to you. In fact, in the back they have what's called, like, these bonus tracks. It's like four or five separate chapters that they've written just to particular people in the church, pastors, laypeople, musicians, even the people that help produce the sound. I found that bit to be so lovely and pastoral. It, it's gentle, the tone is encouraging, but it is also strong, and I appreciate that. So a lot of it is some of the themes that we've just talked about, but my conviction grows all the time of just how important congregational singing is, and how everything you just said, the music, the liturgy that we bring forward- has to be of a deliberate kind to strengthen that exercise, to make it easy, so to speak. And that does come into practical things like if you look at the psalter, and I, I don't... I have it on my phone, but I don't know where my phone is, so I was gonna look at the one you were referencing. My guess is it's, it's in probably a key with a couple of sharps in it, because those are the ones that are easiest to sing. So even little things like that matter. What you hear on the radio often is, or radio? People still listen to the radio? What you hear, like, in, like, contemporary music, like, often is not necessarily for congregational singing just in its key, and, and that's okay. And so even in my own church, we transpose things to make it reasonable and approachable. But what I think was, like, the critical question put forward in this book that I absolutely loved as a great reminder was: how did the congregation sing? It's very interesting that they kind of bring forward this thesis that that's how you should be judging your music. How did the congregation sing? And I think if we started asking that, it might slightly tweak or maybe change altogether, to your point, the methods and the practices that we use when we undergo worship by way or through music. So this is really great. It's easily readable, and it's for everybody, and it, there's a chapter on family worship as well, how to bring singing into your home and music into your home all the time as an act of worship so that when you get to the Lord's Day, your kids are like, "Yeah, this is our jam." Uh, especially maybe even recognizing some of the pieces of music and be excited about that. So there was a lot that made me think about here. It's fantastic. And to your point, Tony, I would say the Gettys, especially in, like, "Christ Alone," some of the other things, this is probably the closest to what you're talking about, where they've taken and imported kind of the classical hymn structures-  [00:17:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah [00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: but modernized a little bit just the language while without sacrificing any of the theological richness or the musicality that draws your ear to those beautiful rising and falling melodies, the swelling of the vocal there, without, like, distracting from anything that's going on there. It's not emotionalism- Yeah but it certainly is filled with the emotion of what it means to be a Christian and to sing in response as an act of praise to God.  [00:17:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:17:52] Family Worship Singing [00:17:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I can't underscore enough the importance of congregational singing. We, we've, we've actually talked about, about it in context of, like, how important it is for the men of the congregation to sing, which is something I, I really appreciate about my congregation, is, is the m- the men just go all out. Like, people are, like- Love it ... nobody is, nobody is ashamed of the fact that they squawk on a note that they're not used to or anything like that. And where this really pays out, um, at least in our congregation, but I'd, I'd be willing to bet if you go to any congregation where the, where the men particularly are passionate and active in musical worship, right? Um, I think where this plays out is you see the children very quickly picking up those songs and learning them and singing them. And the, the favorite part of my day, this is gon- any parent of toddlers is gonna be like, "What are you talking about?" Bedtime is one of my favorite times of day, not just because it means that, like, in a little while I'm gonna get a little peace and quiet. Like, that's part of it, too, but there are two songs that we sing almost every single night, and Augie leads them, which is really great. He always wants to start, and he always wants to sing, and it's the Doxology and the Gloria Patri. And these are songs that he has just picked up from being in the congregation, and, you know, I, I don't remember consciously teaching him any of these songs. And now, now Adeline, who is, uh, my two-year-old daughter, almost two, she's starting to pick those songs up, and she's starting to sing them, and she recognizes them, and she responds very differently to those songs than she does to other songs. Um, it's funny because I don't, I don't know where she got this. Neither my wife nor I are particularly, uh, charismatic, emotive people. Like, we don't raise our hands when we're singing, but she, she does. She, she, when we start singing- My girl ... the Gloria Patri or the Doxology, her hand is in the air, and she's looking at the sky, and she's waving her hands around. Yeah. And, um, she recognizes that those songs have a different place than a Miss Rachel song. She doesn't put her hands in the air and wave and look up at the ceiling when Miss Rachel comes on or when Baby Shark comes on. She knows those songs. She can sing those songs. Um, but she doesn't- Respond to those in the same way. And that is a direct result of the fact that congregational singing is an important thing in the life of our church and in the life of our family. And I think a book like Sing, I haven't read it, but I've heard very good things about it, and the, the Gettys are rock solid, like- Right ... theologically. Yes. Musically. They're, they're well within our Reformed tradition, at least broadly speaking. Um, and, and they have a, they have one of the strongest sort of theologies of praise music that you're gonna find. Mm-hmm. It's not quite like a liturgiology or something like that, but it's, it's, it's a theology of praise worship, praise and worship music. Right. Um, and that's not something that's super common, right? There's a lot of theology of liturgy. There's a lot of practical theology on liturgy. Um, the Gettys have developed a really unique kind of place in things in that they've really developed this idea that congregational singing has a specific theological import, and they've developed it in a way that's approachable. So yeah, I haven't read it and I sh- I probably should, but it, it sounds like a really great book. And, um, I c- just can't underscore it enough. And- Maybe this is my little plug. Like, uh, family worship is really tough, and it's not something I've mastered. Like, we don't, we, we don't have a regular rhythm. But what we do have is we have a consistent, uh, we consistently pray at night before bed, and we consistently sing one or both of those songs. And that by itself, like, the kids are learning and they are, they're absorbing that by osmosis. Um, they're picking up the phrasing, right? Augie can tell you who the three persons of the Trinity are, and that's partially 'cause we do catechism questions, but it's also partially, and I would actually argue probably more, because of the Trinitarian structure of those two songs. Right. He's picked up the language of the Father, the Spirit, and the Son from the Gloria Patri and from the doxology in ways that probably I wouldn't have been able to teach him otherwise. So yeah. Anyway, I, I just co-opted your affirmation. But, um, but yeah. I'm here for it. Congregational worship, family worship, singing, uh, to our Lord is commanded, and it's commanded for our good- Right and for his, his benefit and his blessing. Um, and so any book that is, is solid and will help you do that, I, I'm wholeheartedly behind.  [00:22:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is... All that is fire. This is fire.  [00:22:19] Reclaim Congregational Song [00:22:19] Jesse Schwamb: God designed our psyche for singing, and we're probably, uh, I would say contractually obligated since Reformed is in the name of the title of the podcast- to remind ourselves and everybody else that one of the things the Reformation did was reclaim the singing of God's word by his own people. Yes. Taking it out of that performatory space back into literally the voice boxes of the people who are sitting in worship together. So sometimes we might have to do that again. You know, there is a little bit, I think, of... There, there is in some places, not everywhere, this kind of tilting of that time of worship through music to be vouchsafed or relegated to those who are, uh, let's say, like, the most, like, talented in doing that, and somehow we participate merely by observing or by- Yeah just, uh, you know, being an audience spectator of that, and that's totally backwards. So I get it. The thing is- We're all singers. We may not all be very good singers, but we're all created to be singers nonetheless. This is what the Bible tells us. So we need to lean into that. We need to invest in that. Yeah. And so I, I like, of course, what you're doing with, uh, your kids because you're not only teaching them to sing, and this makes me so happy, but you're teaching them to love singing to the Lord. Yeah. And so that is, I think, what a lot of our congregations miss, is sometimes we do it, and I'm among them often, but grudgingly. And so to get to a place where we come excited that our reasonable response, our reasonable preparation on the Lord's day is to sing together, to hear that gospel message in melody in the ear of our... You know, the voice of our neighbor in our own ear is a wild thing. It's just, like, un- unheard of. And it's like, uh, we gotta stop, right? It's one of those things also that, like- ... we've, we've talked about how it's just kind of otherworldly. Not, not only in the sense that it gives us this really kind of foundational sense of God's, you know, kind of transcendence, of what it means to participate in the worship of someone who is transcendent because it is all these voices together, but also this is something that rarely happens in any other way, especially in the Western culture anymore. This coming together to express and to participate in something where we're all reading literally from the same sheet music is just an entirely different experience, increasingly relegated to this kind of experience. So we, we must protect it, not only because God says that we ought to, but also because, again, it is, it is our reasonable response. Yeah. And it is something, like you've just said, that brings Him glory and is certainly for our good. So, uh, this is the Singcast, so everybody- ... everybody get to it. You can make your own music. God has commanded us to sing. So the sooner we just understand, like, hey, it's, it's... You know. Uh, but... And the last thing I'll say is this is one of those things that's, like, practice too. A- and I get it. Like, you may say, like, "Listen, I can only hit two notes, and that's all I'm gonna hit no matter what the music is." Well, then belt the two notes, and also know that, like, the more you practice that kind of thing, honestly, the better that you'll get and the more comfortable that you'll become. The voice is an instrument like any other instrument that takes, like, a little bit of practice and a little bit of work. But even that can cause, I think, great benefits and build a little bit of confidence. But just the example of singing and doing it from a heart that is keen to worship God and that is filled with passion to respond to Him with gratitude and, you know, adoration is really the key thing. And so I, I'd rather have a entire group full of worshipers that are singing off-key but, like, with just resounding passion than to have this performance of just a handful of voices because they feel like they're the most capable to do it. Yeah. I think we'd, we'd rather have everybody else, and to hear the congregation mixed as one of those instruments. So sing. Yeah.  [00:26:05] Everyone Can Sing [00:26:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and y- you and I have made the point in the past, too, like- I, I don't think, uh, maybe I'm wrong. Uh, we are a top 50 healthcare podcast, so maybe some doctor- I'm sure you're correct ... is gonna... Right. Like, I don't think being tone deaf is actually a physical condition. Like- Mm. I, I mean, I, I mean, obviously, like, some people have hearing problems, and that means they have trouble singing. I hear what you're saying. But, like, the people who are like, "Well, I j- I just can't sing. I'm just not capable of that," uh, like, I think the, the physical conditions that would make you incapable of singing are not usually what people are talking about. Like- Right. Yeah ... you know, some people have, like, vocal fold disorders or they have hearing problems, and I guess maybe, like, if perfect pitch is a thing, which it, it is. Like, perfect pitch is a... I don't know what causes it, but some people are born with perfect pitch. I suppose in theory that means some people must be born with, like, the opposite of perfect pitch. But I think most people who say, like, "Well, I just, I'm just tone deaf. I can't carry a tone," that, that's probably not true. Like, it just means you need practice. Um, and some people's voices, like physically, their bodies are more, more designed by God to produce a pleasant sound than other people. But I, I think actually just about anybody with a little bit of practice, and mostly I think this is probably just the confidence to actually sing and a little bit of practice to learn how your body works, like how your voice works, um, could probably get to a point where singing is not only very relatively comfortable and easy, but it's something that is pleasant and is not overly challenging. This is actually something that I think we've lost in the church. We should... This, I mean, this is about to come the episode, but, um- ... something we've lost in the church when we have sort of changed from a true genuine congregational singing model, which was the norm- And I've heard people make arguments about the importance of hymnals, and I, I agree with those arguments, although I know some people have moved them into almost like a realm of, like, divine mandate- Right that you have to use hymnals because it trains people to teach. But we have lost something with both the sort of commercialization of worship music and the pro- like making it a professional thing, and we've lost congregational singing. The, the people in the church throughout history have learned to sing. Many of them have learned to read, learned the scriptures, learned theology, not in the seminary and not in the monastery, but in the pew as they sing God's word and as they sing- Right ... the great theological hymns of, of the church. There's so much you can learn through that process that I just think we've lost. And I think going back to something like a hymnal or the Trinity Psalter Hymnal or whatever, whatever standard music your church is gonna use, and I mean standard music. Like, whether this is a collection of worship choruses that has been curated for the church or it's a published hymnal or something like that, going back to something like that teaches the church how to sing. And I don't remember who wrote it, but the trellis and the vine, like the worship that we sing, I know Mike Horton makes this point. The worship that we sing is the tre- is the trellis that the vine of our wor- of our- Yes ... faith grows on, right? That's true. Like, what the, what the church lex credendi, lex orandi. Like, the church, what the church prays, the church believes. What the church sings, the church believes. So all of that to say, like, the, the importance of congregational singing can't be under-emphasized, and it's... I, I mean, I don't know that I would I don't know that most theologists say technically s- like, congregational singing is an element of worship, but praising the Lord through song certainly is. Yes. It's, it's evidence. Um, and, and so I think that's definitely something that the church has lost in general. Um, and I know there are churches... I- it's funny, when Ashley and I were between churches, uh, very briefly after, um, our previous church closed down, um, we went to a local sort of, like, high, high, uh, production, seeker-sensitive church, very Steven Furtick-esque, and we only lasted, like, 10 minutes in this, in this service. We went in and the production value was great, and the music sounded great, but we couldn't hear ourselves, we couldn't sing- Right ... and it was very performative, and we just left. We were only there for a few minutes, and we left. And I think that's something we've lost as we've sort of migrated worship to almost, like, a professional class. So yeah, bring it back to the pews. Bring it back to your- Bring it back ... bring it back to your house, bring it back to your kid's bedroom when you're tucking them in. Everywhere. Bring it back to the car on the way to work, in the bus. Right. Like, just let's everywhere we go, let's sing and worship the Lord. [00:30:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right.  [00:30:31] Train Your Voice [00:30:31] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, so as a final thing, let me compound your hot take and say that I agree with you, that I... And I think professionals would as well, and I'm gonna stand on a resource that I'm gonna recommend to everybody here in a second, that in fact the Getty say, "If you can speak, you can sing." And there are a f- a few conditions that would prevent you from doing that, of course. And even there, they wanna explore opportunities for you, for instance, signing, for instance, to ensure that you can participate in worship. Uh, the hot take is I do think that because the instrument that God has given us in the vocal cords is exactly that, that it can be trained, and that actually most people can sing. And if you're serious about that, if you think, "You know what? I'd like to be able to do that. How can I explore that?" Here's a book for you. It's called Set Your Voice Free by Roger Love. The full title is How to Get the Singing or Speaking Voice You Want. Roger Love is, like, this amazing behind-the-scenes vocal coach. He has coached, like, a ton of really talented recording artists, and this is his very contention in the book, is that everybody can sing. It's really about how much or little work you wanna put into it. And in fact, this book comes with, like, these exercises that you can listen to and then record yourself. And then he, from a distance basically, can give you some pointers based on allowing you to kinda evaluate what you hear in your own recording back. So if you really are the kind of person that's like, "Listen, I, I dare you. I cannot sing," I would challenge you, I would double dog dare you to get this book, Set Your Voice Free, and if you're really serious about wanting to try and see if it can make a difference, I, I think it can. And I've, I myself have enjoyed this book, gone back to it many times, use it in my own work and practice because I found it to be helpful. So there you go. Sing, sing, and sing again.  [00:32:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:07] Singing Apps and Practice [00:32:07] Tony Arsenal: And if you're not a reader, first of all, why are you listening to the podcast? But second of all, if for some reason you're not a reader I'm, I'm joking. I'm sure there are people that are listening to the podcast who are not readers. That was, like, a super smug thing to say. How dare you. I'm sorry about that. How dare you. Um, if for some reason you don't wanna read that book or you're not a reader, um, y- you can do something as simple as looking up Yousician on your Yousician, Y-O-U- Yeah ... S-I, like the word musician, but U instead of, like, Y-O-U instead of, uh, musician. Um, there are plenty of apps out there. I just, I mention Yousician just because I've used that on, like, a free trial basis with some guitar teaching, and it's a reputable source. They also have a vocal module. So, like, if you wanna learn to sing, there are plenty of resources out there who can help you train your voice. A- and it- Again, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a vocal coach, I'm not a professional singer. I'm not even that great of a singer, and I, I probably could be a better singer if I wanted to devote the time to it. Um, it doesn't take much to, to be able- Right ... to become a competent singer. Um, I think most of us, you pick up one s- just like I learned guitar, you pick one or two songs that you really like and you wanna learn, and you learn to sing those songs, and then those skills will develop over time. So enough about that, Jesse. We've got, speaking of talents- ... we've got some talents to talk about. There it is. Boom, bazinga. Baza-bazom. I'm  [00:33:27] Jesse Schwamb: back. There it is. Yeah, so- I was excited  [00:33:31] Tony Arsenal: about that one ...  [00:33:32] Jesse Schwamb: that, that was really good. And, and we should just h- honor everyone. That's it.  [00:33:37] Tony Arsenal: That's it. Tip your waiters and waitresses, folks. It  [00:33:39] Jesse Schwamb: was so good. We're here all week.  [00:33:41] Parable Context Setup [00:33:41] Jesse Schwamb: So we're in Matthew 25, uh, verses 14 through 28, and this is at least gonna be a two-parter for us. This goes by the name you might be familiar of, which is The Parable of the Talents. But before we get to it, just a quick reminder that we've been speaking about this parable, not like in a special way, but hopefully in the more contextual sense. So this is the second of three eschatological parables in Matthew 25. So the first was The 10 Virgins, which we went through. We're in The Talents, and then we're coming up to everybody's favorite, The Sheep and the Goats. All three are part of this Olivet Discourse, which is, of course, Jesus' final teaching block before his Passion. And I think it h- behooves us so that we do not get distracted from, like, the center of gravity of this thing, that this is delivered in response to the disciples' question about the sign of his coming and the age to come. Because I've heard so many, like, little talks, maybe homilies is more the right word, on this particular parable that lack gravity. So little gravity that basically NASA could train their astronauts in it. So we wanna stay away from that and I think get into, like, the, the proper context. So Tony, do you have it in front of you by any chance? And would  [00:34:50] Tony Arsenal: you- I do. I do, yeah. Yeah. Read it for us? I'll read it here.  [00:34:52] Reading the Parable [00:34:52] Tony Arsenal: So this is, uh, starting in, uh, Matthew 25 verse 14, and I'm gonna read down through, uh, the end of verse 30 here. So it, it reads here, "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted them, entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time, the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents. Here I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, "Master, you delivered to me two talents. Here I have made two talents more." His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master." He also who had received one talent came forward, saying, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours." But his master answered him, "You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming, I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him who gave it, who give it to him who has 10 talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. For, uh, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness in that place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."  [00:36:56] Watchfulness and Stewardship [00:36:56] Jesse Schwamb: So it starts with that amazing connective, which we really spoke about in the last episode, in verse four- 14, starting with four. So it's tying, like we said, this parable directly to verse 13, which we know is in the, the parable of the ten virgins. But it's this idea of watchfulness. "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." So th- I think this is the point we really drove last time, that we really felt highly convicted about, that this parable is not like a detached economic lesson, but it's really like an expedition, exposition, not expedition- ... of what watchful discipleship actually looks like during the interval of the master's absence. Like, that's the whole setup here. So it's starting with this idea of like the master goes away, but here we have these slaves or these servants who are entrusted. And to me, again, that's like such a linchpin in this whole thing, 'cause it's, it's carrying the sense that of course, like, he's handing over stewardship. It's a deposit held on another's behal- I love this parable because it has some banking language in it. It's, it's a deposit held on another's behalf, and that's like the key covenant concept of the entire thing. Ownership remains with the master. The servants are stewards. They're not proprietors. And that language, I think, really anticipates, like, the entire New Testament theology of stewardship, which is developed by Paul. So like when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, "This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful." So like all of that, that's like just one verse for me. Like, that's an incredible setup.  [00:38:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:38:28] Common Misreadings [00:38:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and you know, I think it bears saying, too, um, I wanna be careful how I say this because I don't wanna impugn, uh, poor motives or anything like that on, on the, the people that I'm about to speak to. And I say this a little bit tongue in cheek, but also I say this as someone who used to be deeply involved in youth ministry. There's kind of like a, a youth ministry, um- international version of the Bible, I guess, if you wanna put it that way, where, like, there are certain, certain passages and parables that s- for some reason seem really prone to misapplication- Sure in, in some context. And I would say, like, youth ministry is the one I have in mind. Like, um, one of them is, like, in Matthew 18 where it's like, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them." Like, that's a, that's a statement about God's, God's presence in the judgment of the church and excommunicating an un- like, a, an unrepentant, uh, person who identifies with Christ. And, and ironically here, maybe not ironically, but, like, casting them into the outer darkness of excommunication, which is representative of casting them out into the actual inner darkness of damnation. Right. Like, th- there's a, there's a misapplication of that, that like, well, you know, like, if only a couple people came to youth group tonight, like, it's still worth meeting because where two or three are gathered, there I am in the midst of them. Um, this, this parable has a very similar kind of misapplication that is maybe a, a little bit less of a misapplication. Like, I think there is something to say in this parable about the fact that God entrusts us with abilities, talents, treasure, t- our time. Like, He's entrusted us with resources, and He does expect us to use those resources, uh, in a way that is honoring to Him and beneficial for the, for the gospel and for the kingdom. Um, that's true in a broad sense, but I don't think actually that this is what that... But, like, that's not what this passage- Mm ... is teaching. Right. I think I, I kinda joked last time, but, like, I've heard more than one sermon that draws the parallel between the word talent here and our talents in terms of, like, our spiritual gifts or our ability to play guitar or, like, to bounce a basketball and, like, thr- like, throw a free throw. Like, that's not the kinda talent we're talking about here. So I wanna, I wanna sorta, like, point that out just to sort of exclude that from the conversation. Yes, God gifts His people, and He expects His people to use those gifts for His glory and for their own benefit. Um, but that's not what this parable is talking about. This is a parable about the fact that God has entrusted the kingdom of heaven on Earth to His people.  [00:41:08] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:41:08] Tony Arsenal: And He expects His people to make use of that in a way that expands the kingdom and also in a way that does not... And this is, this is, I actually think, the main point of the parable. In a way that properly understands the nature of the king. The, the punchline or the main point of the parable here, it, just to sort of, like, I don't know, give away the ending or, like, unbury the lead, I don't know, whatever that is. The point of this parable- It's not that, like, it's a really good thing to double what God has resourced you with. The point of the parable, the reason that, just like the, um, just like it wasn't the virgins falling asleep in the last parable that was the problem because everybody fell asleep, in this instance, uh, the amount of money or the amount of return on investment that the servants produce is not the point of the parable. That's not the real difference between them. The real difference is that the former servants understood that their master had trusted them with a task and expected something of them, and the, the unfaithful, wicked, lazy servant had a total misunderstanding of who the master was- Right ... and therefore what his role as the master's servant was. That's the point of this parable, and I think, this is the last thing I'll say before I, I, I take a breath here. There's a lot of people that would look at this parable and might read some sort of works righteousness or, um, and this is more understandable and I think has a place within the Reformed tradition, although I don't necessarily hold this view. But would look at this as sort of like a theology which would, would argue that we receive some sort of enhanced rewards in heaven based on our faithfulness. There's plenty of good, faithful Reformed Bible teachers that would hold that position. I actually think whether or not that's true, this is still also not what this passage is getting at. [00:43:00] Jesse Schwamb: I, I totally agree with you there.  [00:43:02] Talents as Huge Wealth [00:43:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think one of the reasons that we know that is because we can look at some of these details and let the details speak to us about the magnitude in their representation, why they're given. So of course, whenever the scripture gives us detail, especially in a context like a parable, it can be helpful of cour- of course not to overanalyze them, but to respect their place in the context of the story, and that's why verse 15 I think is so important. So to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability, then he went away. Now, this, this varies slightly, but there's a lot of, I think, very common historicity here that points us to understanding, like, the talents as a unit of monetary weight, and there is some discrepancy about its exact weight. But what we can say for sure is this: that we're talking about, as I teased at the beginning, a huge sum of money. So in other words, like, this is a gift from God himself. It's a divine gift. Yeah. It's something that's not earned. It's something that's given and something that's entrusted. So in the first-century Roman world, a talent was roughly equivalent to, like, 6,000 denarii, depending on who you talk to, which would mean that a single talent represented approximately, like, 20 years on average of a laborer's wages. So the sums then here we're talking about are staggering even at the lowest one. So the five-talent servant is receiving essentially approximately equivalent of a century's wages, and the one-talent servant is receiving 20 years' worth. There's no such thing as a small gift in Christ's economy, I think is the point here, and even the least endowment is immense beyond our reckoning. Yeah. So the distribution also is deliberately unequal. It's five, one, two, and the text doesn't offer any apology for this inequality. The master distributes to each according to his ability, which as I say that, I realize that could probably be its own episode, that we could talk about what that even means. Yeah. But he is matching and entrusting to capacity, and that's not arbitrary. Of course, that's wise and personal, and even the Greek here for this idea of capacity or power suggests the master knows his servants intimately and calibrates the stewardship accordingly. But nonetheless, it proves the point you're making here, which is not just about, like, well, do you have some kind of innate ability that's above average that God has endowed you with here? That's not even what we're talking about. Again, the whole point of this is to answer the question eschatologically about what the end means and when the time is coming and what good discipleship looks like. And so in that way, we understand then these talents to be these divinely appointed and massively generous gifts of God, essentially, like you said, the stewarding of the gospel in the story of salvation itself unto his people, and then to make something of that, so to speak, by the power of the Holy Spirit that earns a return for the kingdom, that is all empowered by God, that is under the volition of the person, uh, the Christian who says, "As a disciple, it is my responsibility to steward these gifts." That is really what we're after. So we do kind of get in this place where when you take this and say, "Well, what are you doing with," let's say- your home, if you have a nice home, are you being hospitable enough? If you have, let's say, a good singing voice by talent, are you using that to make sure that you're on the, quote-unquote, "praise and worship team," is not, like, entirely wrong, but it's not right either- Yeah to use this passage- Yeah ... for that purpose. There's a bigger theme here. There is, there's a much stronger and widescale framework that God is drawing us to and examine, and it's about the stewardship of the church itself.  [00:46:30] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.  [00:46:31] The Foolish Servant Exposed [00:46:31] Tony Arsenal: That's really key, and this is what struck me as, as you were speaking about that, is like we see in so many of the kinda like, uh, like the chump in the parable. Like, there's- Yeah ... a lot of these parables have like a chump- Right ... where like you're looking at and you're like, nothing about what you've decided to do makes any sense. We're talking about people who've been given, in the first case, 100 years worth of, worth of wages. Right. Right? Any one of these people, and again, we're talking about a timeframe where, like, you could just take that money and run and, like, nobody's gonna find you. There's no digital trail on any of this, right? If I stole, if I stole 100 years worth of labor from my manager or from my, my employer, they would find me, right? That's not the situation we're talking about. So even the chump who decided, "I'm not gonna do anything with this," he could've just take- taken off with the money and had 20 years worth of labor. Right. Just 20 years worth of wages. Right. This is a, this is a sum of money that makes all f- all three of these servants unimaginably wealthy instantly, right? The point of this is, in part, that the final servant has no idea the amazing blessing and responsibility that he's been given. And again, I come back to this. It's not because he is dumb or because he is, um, somehow less competent in a strict sense, right? It, it's so funny to me, like, we also gloss over the fact that, like, the guy who has five talents, he's got 100 years worth of money, 100 years worth of wages. Right. And he just goes and gets 100 more. Like- Right he just goes and trades and- Right ... comes up with 100 years worth of wages that he brings back. Like, that's, in itself is, like, phenomenally, amazingly outrageous. We ran into this too with the, um, the parable of the unmerciful servant, right? We've, we've got one guy who's got this unimaginable debt, like, like, thousands of years worth of, uh, worth of wages that he could never make up, and he thinks he's gonna somehow come up with it if you just give him enough time. It's kind of like the opposite here. This guy's got this unimaginable amount of instant wealth, and he just buries it in the ground. First of all, how much... We're also talking about an era where money was a physical, entirely physical.  [00:48:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:48:53] Tony Arsenal: There were no, there were no digital banks. Like- No zeros and ones most of our money exists as ones and zeros in a computer program right now. Right. Like, in reality, like- Right ... my money doesn't exist. We don't have, like, a physical gold standard anymore in America. Jesse could probably s- I'm probably making dumb things up right now. No, that's that's- Like, it used- Right on to be that, like, every dollar that the United States government printed had, like, a piece of gold sitting at Fort Knox- Yes ... uh, like backing it up, but we just don't have that anymore. Most of the money that exists in our system is entirely imaginary. It's an entirely, like, made-up digital currency way before, like, Bitcoin was a thing. That's not the case in this timeframe. This dude who buried 20 years worth of money in the ground, that's a significant amount of labor in and of itself- Right ... to even be able to do that. So we're not talking about, like... And I think this is the thing we miss when we, when we read the word talents, and one, when we obscure it and we, like, we misappropriate the word talent to mean, like, abilities, 'cause it, that's a convenient, like, illustration tool. We're talking about a huge sum of probably gold or silver that this dude just buries in the ground, and then, like, digs it up when the master comes back.  [00:50:01] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:50:01] Tony Arsenal: And I think, like- When we don't realize how much money this is, we miss the force of the master's like, "You stupid, dumb, wicked, slothful servant." Like, if you had even taken this money to the bank and done the least imaginable- Yes ... effort. Exactly. Like, if you had done anything at all, like how mu- how difficult, granted more difficult back in this age than it is now, but like if you had even done something as simple requiring as little labor as possible and just brought this to the bank and let them collect interest on it, we'd still be talking about a huge return. [00:50:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:50:36] Tony Arsenal: And he doesn't even do that, and that's, that's the point. There's the people who do, and they gloss over this. The parable totally glosses over the amazing effort and work that it must have taken to take 100 years worth of la- of wages and turn it into 200 years worth of wages. Right. Or to take 40 years worth of wages and turn it into 80 years worth of wages. That's an amazing, probably almost miraculous return on, on investment. Whatever they did is amazing, and the parable's like, "Yeah, they did that." They just took it to the traders and they brought back five more talents. Like, it's nothing. And then this idiot, and I say idiot in like the most like, like exegetically sound, idios, like, like foolish idiot person. [00:51:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:51:20] Tony Arsenal: This idiot just buries it in the ground and doesn't even bother to bring it to the bank where he's gonna get some return on it. This is the picture of the fool who does not make use of the means of salvation. This is the picture of the fool who refuses to receive Christ as savior, who refuses to make use of the benefit and blessing of salvation that is available to all who will trust in Christ and turn to him. This is the same picture as the idiot virgins who didn't buy enough oil and just fell asleep when they knew that the bridegroom was coming, right? Right. It's not that they fell asleep, it's that they didn't do the most obvious, simple,

At just 15 years old, Anne Wilson experienced heartbreaking loss when her older brother passed away in a car accident. In the midst of grief, she sang publicly for the first time at his funeral. That moment changed the course of her life.Today, Anne is an award-winning Christian and country artist whose music, including her two-time Platinum hit “My Jesus,” has encouraged millions. On this episode of GPS: God. People. Stories., Anne shares how God met her in her pain, called her to music, and continues to use her story to point others to live for Christ.Connect with us through email at gps@billygraham.org or on Facebook at Billy Graham Radio.Visit AnneWilsonOfficial.com for her tour dates and her new book “Rebel: Following Jesus When the World Walks the Other Way.”If you'd like to know more about beginning a relationship with Jesus Christ, or deepening the faith you already have, visit FindPeacewithGod.net. If you'd like to pray with someone, call our Billy Graham 24/7 Prayer Line at 855-255-7729. 

In the halls of our Venice, Italy retreat house are priceless paintings and works of art. Clearly, the owner is a serious collector. But one piece stopped me. It hangs in a second-story hallway—gold-framed, almost sculpted into the canvas itself. It's not just a painting; it has depth, dimension, movement. Figures seem to step forward out of the frame and cast real shadows on the wall. And it tells a story. A man is kneeling in prayer, hands lifted, eyes fixed on a crucifix of Jesus on the wall before him. His posture is steady. His focus is anchored. But beside him stands another figure—dark, winged, intent. Not attacking violently, but persistently present. Watching. Pressing. Distracting. And yet the man does not turn. He stays fixed on Jesus. That image is not just art—it is a spiritual reality. We live in that scene. There is always a battle for the mind. Not always loud. Not always dramatic. Often subtle. Persistent. Relentless. The enemy does not need to destroy you if he can distract you. Because where your attention goes, your life follows. My friends, this is a real picture of what is continually going on around us. The spiritual battle of Satan's demons forever against us, flying around, shooting flaming arrows, throwing threats and insults – all while Jesus is strong and steady above it all. The question is, where are we looking? What are we focusing on? What gets our mind? If your mind isn't saved by Jesus, then it is completely vulnerable to the attacks of the enemy. If you're not focused on Jesus, you are continually distracted by the forces of darkness, acts of evil, and threats of terror. Your mind is the battlefield of this spiritual war. If the enemy captures your thoughts, he doesn't just influence your mood—he distorts your vision. If he gets your thoughts, you spiral in fear. If he gets your focus, you lose peace. If he gets your attention, you forget truth. This is why Scripture is so direct: The battle is not first in your circumstances—it is in your mind. For this battle, God offers a very specific piece of armor over your mind – the helmet of salvation. Ephesians 6:17, “Put on salvation as your helmet.” It's the final piece of your defensive armor. The belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the shoes of peace, the shield of faith, and finally the helmet of salvation. “Put on salvation as your helmet.” This is not decorative language. It is defensive language. A helmet exists for one reason: to protect what cannot afford to be struck. Your head. Your mind. Your thoughts. In Roman warfare, the helmet marked identity and provided protection. It told others who you belonged to—and it guarded what could end the fight instantly. Because a blow to the head ends everything. So Paul is saying something deeply practical and deeply spiritual: God is not only saving your soul—He is guarding your mind. The phrase translated “take” or “put on” carries the idea of receiving what is being handed to you. This matters. Because salvation is not self-produced. It is not achieved through willpower or positive thinking. It is received. You don't fabricate salvation. You accept it. You don't defend yourself from the enemy by willpower alone. You stand under what God has already given. The word “salvation” here is not abstract. It means rescue. Deliverance. Being pulled out of danger you could not escape on your own. So the “helmet of salvation” is not just: “I am forgiven.” It is also: “My mind belongs to the One who rescued me.” It is the assurance that “I am saved, I am held, I am not defenseless in my mind.” The enemy rarely begins with destruction. He begins with intrusion. The crafty enemy of our is soul doing everything he can to distract us, torment us, fill us with doubts and fears. He says, “take off that helmet and let me get in your head!” That's the battle. If he can saturate your thoughts, he doesn't need to change your circumstances. He simply convinces you that darkness is all there is. But the helmet of salvation interrupts that lie. Girl, did you take off your helmet? Did you let the devil get in your head? Are you filled with doubts, worries and fears? Oh, my sister, your eyes aren't on Jesus because your head isn't protected. God is offering you a helmet to protect your mind, but it's always up to you to accept it and put it on. The helmet of salvation reminds us of this: WE ARE SAVED, WE ARE REDEEMED and WE ARE PROMISED A FUTURE. When your mind knows that full well, it changes the way you live. You're no longer distracted by the wispers of Hell. You're no longer fearful of the pokes of Satan. You're locked in to Jesus. There is an old story often told of two wolves—one feeding darkness, one feeding life. It goes like this: An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life: “A fight is going on inside of me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between 2 wolves. One wolf is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, jealousy, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.” He continued, “The other wolf is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith. The same fight is going on inside of you – and inside of every other person too.” The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?” The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.” Whatever you feed grows stronger. And the truth is simple: Your thoughts are your daily feeding ground. What are you feeding? Isaiah 26:3, “You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose THOUGHTS ARE FIXED ON YOU.” This is not for those who are partially focused. Not for those who are occasionally focused. This is for those who have a FIXED FOCUS on God. That's what the helmet does. It fixes our focus. The helmet of salvation is not just protection from attack—it is alignment of attention. It brings your mind back into place. Back to truth. Back to Christ. Back to peace. Not shallow peace. Not temporary peace. But perfect peace. “You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose THOUGHTS ARE FIXED ON YOU.” Remember the art work in the Venice retreat house – the man kneeling in prayer with his eyes fixed on Jesus even while Satan's demon is present and making his attack. The protected mind that knows it is saved by Jesus is unbothered, held in perfect peace. And so the works of God grows in his life while the works of Satan diminish. Have you been giving the enemy daily food with your thoughts? Has he been growing stronger and stronger in your life because you've allowed your mind to be attacked by him? Girl, put on your helmet. Your helmet reminds you who God is and who you are in him. You are saved. You are redeemed. You are promised a future with him. A soldier's helmet includes a marking identifying who they are fighting with and for. A crest or emblem on their helmet would signify their allegiance. When you put on the helmet of salvation, you're taking a stand in this spiritual battle of whose side you're on. But when your identity is unclear, your thoughts become vulnerable. You gotta know your identity in Jesus – then you know who you are saved, redeemed, held, secured, and the accusations from Hell lose their power. The enemy cannot easily dominate a mind anchored in identity. You're standing with Jesus in victory. Your enemy has already been defeated – he fights from a place of defeat, settling for the spoils of your wandering thoughts and dark corners of your mind left unprotected. Give him NOTHING. The bad wolf gets NOTHING from you. Starve him out! Satan doesn't even get the crumbs of your thoughts today. Nothing. Give him no space in your mind. Billy Graham said this, “If you get your mind off Christ and you get it on some things you shouldn't be thinking about, then you pray, ‘Lord, forgive me and help me to get my mind back on Christ.’ I do many times.” This is the action of putting the helmet of salvation on. The moment you recognize your mind is wandering, you get it back under the protection of your salvation offered in Jesus! This is the discipline of the helmet. Not striving. Not panic. Just returning. Again and again. To Jesus. That painting in Venice shows it clearly: A man kneeling in prayer. Darkness present—but not dominant. Eyes fixed on Christ. That is the helmet of salvation. A protected mind is not a mind that never sees darkness. It is a mind that refuses to be ruled by it. So keep your focus. Keep your identity. Keep your helmet on. Because you are not fighting for victory. You are standing in it. Follow Pamela on Instagram – https://instagram.com/headmamapamela Or Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/pamela.crim Find out more about BIG Life – http://biglifehq.com

Nicole Martin made history as Christianity Today's first Black female CEO — and took the hits that come with it. In this conversation: the backlash, Billy Graham's original vision, how the magazine is advancing and speaking into a polarized world, and why leadership is designed to kill you.

In this episode the guys break down exactly when you should NOT add weight to the bar, including when you've already reached your strength ceiling, when your form isn't perfect, when you feel any pain or discomfort, after a bad night of sleep, and when you're in a calorie deficit.  They also get into a study showing exercise variety predicts longevity better than exercise volume, Sal's experience with a new peptide called 5-amino-1MQ through MPHormones, TMG as a creatine-stacking supplement, and the story of Pope John Paul II's assassination attempt and the remarkable forgiveness that followed. Then they coach live callers submitted through ⁠mplivecaller.com⁠. Sarah Beth from Mississippi on reverse dieting as a petite woman, Chelsea from Australia on training through pregnancy, Sandy from Connecticut with a 30-day check-in update, and Parker from Georgia on how to structure progression as an intermediate lifter returning to consistency. MAPS 15 BOGO —⁠ https://maps15bogo.com⁠ Buy 1 get 1 FREE — limited time (all 7 MAPS 15 programs same price) SPONSORS Rho Nutrition (liposomal NAD+ & Glutathione) —⁠ https://www.rhonutrition.com/discount/MINDPUMP⁠ Code: MINDPUMP — 20% off sitewide. Liquid liposomal delivery for cellular energy, recovery & oxidative stress support. Huel —⁠ https://huel.com/MINDPUMP⁠ Code: MINDPUMP — 15% off (new customers only). Ready-to-Drink: 35g protein, 7g fiber, 27 vitamins & minerals, no artificial sweeteners. Black Edition Powder: 40g protein. Complete nutrition for chaotic days. LMNT (electrolytes) —⁠ https://drinklmnt.com/MindPump⁠ Free 8-count sample pack with any purchase — no code needed. Citrus Salt, Raspberry Salt, Watermelon Salt & Orange Salt (2 of each). Submit a live caller question:⁠ https://mplivecaller.com⁠  Mind Pump Store:⁠ https://mindpumpstore.com⁠  Maps Fitness Products:⁠ https://mapsfitnessproducts.com⁠  Instagram: @mindpumpmedia   0:00 - Intro 2:40 - When you should NOT add weight to the bar — the full breakdown 5:23 - Reason #1: You've already hit your strength ceiling — what that looks like 11:07 - Reason #2: Your form isn't perfect — the leverage math that makes this critical 14:01 - Reason #3: You feel anything that isn't right — why every injury had a warning sign 16:19 - Reason #4: You had a bad night of sleep — the #1 predictor of injury in the data 17:47 - Reason #5: You're in a calorie deficit — why ramping intensity during a cut backfires 23:34 - Exercise variety study — more types of exercise = better longevity than more volume 29:01 - 5-amino-1MQ peptide — Sal's NP Hormones experience, NAD & energy 37:32 - TMG (betaine) — stacking with creatine for strength, power & body recomposition 41:03 - Pope John Paul II assassination attempt — forgiveness, redemption & Billy Graham story 50:08 - Meal replacement shakes as a fat loss strategy — when and how to use them correctly 56:03 - Reverse bands — why band-assisted pressing feels so different from band-resistant 1:01:38 - Caller: Sarah Beth (Mississippi) — petite woman, reverse diet, how high should she go? 1:20:35 - Caller: Chelsea (Australia) — 18 weeks pregnant, lost motivation, identity crisis 1:32:02 - Caller: Sandy (Connecticut) — 30-day check-in, big strength gains, community & letting people in 1:57:58 - Caller: Parker (Georgia) — intermediate lifter returning to consistency, how to structure progression