unSeminary Podcast

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by John Plake, Chief Innovation Officer and Editor-in-Chief of the State of the Bible research at the American Bible Society. With decades of experience as a pastor, missionary, professor, and researcher, John brings a unique perspective on how people are actually engaging with Scripture and what we should do about it. The “movable middle” is growing. // One of the most significant insights from recent research is the rise of what John calls the “movable middle”—millions of people who are open to the Bible but not yet engaged with it. This group has grown by approximately nine million people in recent years. They are curious, interested, and even positive toward Scripture, but they lack the tools, confidence, or guidance to engage it meaningfully. This represents a massive opportunity for churches willing to step in and help. People want a guide. // Through focus groups and research, John discovered that many people in the movable middle feel intimidated by the Bible. They struggle with language, context, and navigation. But perhaps most striking is they want help. Contrary to what some leaders might assume, they are not rejecting the church as a guide. In fact, many say, “If we can't trust the church to help us understand the Bible, what good is it?” This creates a clear invitation for churches to step into a more relational, guiding role in discipleship. A surprising discipleship gap. // One of the most sobering findings is that nearly half of weekly church attenders are not regularly engaging Scripture on their own. While churches invest heavily in preaching and programming, many people are not developing personal habits of Bible engagement. John suggests that churches often focus on delivering content rather than equipping people to engage Scripture themselves. The result is a gap between what happens on Sunday and what happens in everyday life. From teaching to equipping. // If churches want to close that gap, they must shift from being primarily content providers to equipping environments. This means helping people develop the skills, habits, and confidence to read and apply Scripture on their own. It also requires understanding the real barriers people face, like time constraints, confusion, or lack of community support, and addressing those barriers with practical solutions. A new tool for churches. // To help leaders take action, the American Bible Society has developed the “Next Step for Church” assessment. This free tool allows churches to measure spiritual health, Bible engagement, and key leadership behaviors within their congregation. Within a few weeks, leaders receive a detailed, data-driven report highlighting strengths, challenges, and suggested next steps. Data that leads to discipleship. // John emphasizes that data is not an end in itself; it's a tool for better shepherding. By listening to their congregation at scale, leaders can identify patterns, confirm instincts, and prioritize what matters most. The assessment surfaces both what's working and where growth is needed, giving churches a clear path forward. It also connects individuals to personalized Scripture engagement resources, helping them take their next step spiritually. Why Scripture engagement matters most. // Nothing has a greater impact on spiritual growth than a person's relationship with the Bible. In fact, Scripture engagement accounts for a significant portion of overall spiritual health. When people consistently engage with God's Word, transformation follows—affecting beliefs, behaviors, and relationships. Signs of hope for the future. // Despite broader cultural challenges, John sees encouraging trends, especially among younger generations. Millennials and Gen Z show increasing openness to Scripture, even if they are still exploring. While overall trends may appear flat, meaningful change is happening beneath the surface. For churches willing to engage this moment, there is real opportunity for impact. To explore the research further or access the free church assessment, visit church.nextstep.bible and begin discovering how your church can better equip people to engage Scripture every day. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in today. This is one of those episodes that there’s a great resource in it that going to want to make sure you engage with. There’s super helpful content. Plus it’s about an area that I know so many of us are thinking about, we’re wondering about, we’re asking questions about. Rich Birch — So super excited to have John Plake with us today. He is the chief innovator ah innovation officer and editor-in-chief of the State of the Bible Research Series, which comes from the American Bible Society. And they’re on a mission to make the Bible available to every person in a language and format each can understand and afford so that all may experience its life-changing message. ABS has really a whole bunch of different tools and approaches, and we’re excited kind of expose a little bit more about that today. John has been in ministry over 30 years. We’ll just call it over 30 years. And it served as a pastor, missionary, professor, researcher. John, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.John Plake — Thanks so much for having me today. It’s great to be with you.Rich Birch — Why don’t you fill in the picture a little bit? Tell us a little bit about your background. You know, what brings you to your current work?John Plake — Yeah. Closer to 40 years now. Rich Birch — Nice. Yeah, yeah. That’s great.John Plake — It’s a little uncomfortable to talk about that.Rich Birch — That’s great.John Plake — Yeah. You know, I start out like a lot of people in ministry. I grew up in a home that ministry was central. Actually, both my grandfathers were ministers. My father was a minister. Ministry is kind of the family business in a way, but I really did sense a direction from God when I was about 15 years old to to pursue full-time ministry.John Plake — There was some detail around that. Ended up going to Bible college and and then started what turned out to be about nine years of full-time pastoral service. And I hadn’t been in that for very long before I realized that everything I learned in Bible College was preparing me to serve a generation that no longer existed in a culture that was gone. John Plake — And I thought, my goodness, I know God’s word pretty well. And mean, I’m a lifelong learner of God’s word. I love the Bible. And yet, didn’t really know culture very well. And I didn’t develop those tools until just years and years of practice, some missionary service, wonderful teachers at at Wheaton College and graduate school and and just a lifelong journey of learning.John Plake — So at American Bible Society, when I got here, the State of the Bible, program or this research project was already underway. And we’d been helped out by the Barna Group, which does some wonderful foundational work. And eventually it just kind of grew up and it got to a place where we had an internal team that was running it ourselves, now in collaboration with the National Opinion Research Council or NORC at the University of Chicago. We just do, I think, what is the largest ongoing study of Americans’ relationship with the Bible and faith and the church. And we get to talk about it all the time. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it.John Plake — So, I mean, this is the best job in the world.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. It’s it’s great research, something that I think should be on the kind of list of things that we need to be paying attention to. It’s been a gift to the church for so long and something that we should continue to to pay attention through. Now, let’s talk about you specifically. You spent three plus decades. I didn’t want to say almost 40. You know, I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that. I could say that, you know, a couple years ago, I clicked across one of those numbers with a zero on the end as my birthday. And ever since then, I’m a little sensitive about the the age thing. Rich Birch — So anyways, As a ministry, missionary professor, researcher, you’ve done a lot. How does wearing all of those hats, what do you what does that bring to you as you come to the data? How does that impact you as you think about really the state of the Bible research?John Plake — Yeah, you know, I think research can be dull. You know, it can sound like it’s all about writing questions or it’s all statistics and numbers. But for me, the research is all about the people. Rich Birch — So true.John Plake — It’s all about the people in our communities and in our churches that we’re trying to understand better so we can serve them well with the gospel. I, for years, I’ve used the analogy that that being in gospel ministry is like being a human bridge across a river. I grew up not very far from the Mississippi River in the St. Louis area, and there was a big 100-year flood when I was early on in ministry. And I mean, none of the bridges worked anymore. You couldn’t get from one side to the other.John Plake — And I thought, you know, that’s a tragedy that I encountered sometimes in ministry where maybe I was deeply rooted in one bank of the river, the text, but I wasn’t necessarily deeply rooted in the other bank of the river, which was the context.John Plake — And it’s this lived experience of the people that I was I was serving. And that I wanted to serve in my community, but I needed to understand them better. So I wasn’t just spouting you know Aristotelian logic to them. Or I wasn’t just coming at them with the pat answers that I’d learned. Like I’d never heard anybody in my life walk into my office and say, Pastor John, you got to tell me, what can you describe hamartiology to me from. You know like I had to learn that in school, but that’s not what people struggle with. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Yeah. John Plake — They had totally different questions and I needed to love them and honor them enough to understand their questions and answer them responsibly and reliably from the pages of scripture.Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Okay, well, we’re going to dig into a little bit of just a couple of the findings just to kind of, we’re trying to whet your appetite, friends, to take steps towards this. So the 2025 data showed, and we’ve seen this, a real bump in Bible engagement, particularly among millennials and men. If I’m reading it correctly, though, we saw 2026, a shift happen, maybe back down. And so what’s going on? Actually, I heard another sociologist in a kind of a related field that was about church attendance talked about the dead cat bounce, that it was like, you know, which I thought, oh, that’s a, but there’s a similarity going on here. Pull this, this finding apart. Help us understand this.John Plake — Yeah, apologies to cat lovers out there.Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.John Plake — We were we were hoping, you know, I think we were really hoping. We looked at 2025. We saw that men in particular were leaning into the Bible in ways we hadn’t seen recently. Millennials doing the same thing. There there were some interesting numbers in 2025. And so when the 2026 numbers came to my desk in late January, I thought, I hope we’re extending I hope it’s going to be a trend. But it wasn’t. It was a blip.John Plake — And there’s more to it, though, than just the fact that scripture engagement didn’t go up. It also didn’t go down. And the level of people in America who are Bible disengaged, meaning they never pick up the Bible on purpose at all, that actually didn’t go up either. What grew was this kind of curious explorer group in the middle that we call the movable middle. And over the last two years, it’s grown by 9 million American adults. Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — And so what we do see is there’s there’s openness to the Bible. There’s experimentation with the Bible. But people are jumping in and they’re trying it and they’re not being able to get hold of it. And I think that’s largely because of us.John Plake — Because Bible people who are around them aren’t saying, please come do this with me. Let me help you. Let me honor you enough to to respect your questions, to ask what you’re dealing with, and help you explore those issues through the pages of Scripture.Rich Birch — I love that movable middle, man, that feels like the kind of group we want to connect with and reach out to in our community. Any other, when you, when you’ve been thinking about this movable middle, what are some other kind of characteristics of those people or other things that, you know, are kind of telltale signs of this group as we’re thinking about them as it, as it pertains to Bible engagement?John Plake — Yeah, they’re an amazing group, and we’re going talking more about them all year, but they are probably my favorite subject in America. There are 74 million American adults that are in the movable middle.Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — 74 million of our neighbors who are like…Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — …and here’s what they tend to say: They love the Bible. They think it’s a great idea. But if you handed them a Bible, they don’t know how to find what they’re looking for. They don’t know how to navigate it. They get confused by the language in in Scripture.John Plake — I remember doing a a focus group with a bunch of people in the movable middle. I was in Chicago. it was an area I was really familiar with. I used to pastor in that area. And we got them talking about their experience with the Bible. And we said, hey, does anything ever stop you or kind of you know make you check out because you’re struggling with what’s going on? John Plake — And one young lady at the table said, yeah, you know the language of the Bible is really really hard for me to understand. It’s it’s a really old book. It uses expressions I don’t understand. And a gentleman sitting across the table from her just kind of chuckled and said, yeah, what the hell’s a mustard seed? And everybody laughed.John Plake — I was behind the glass and I just about fell out of my chair because they didn’t teach me to talk like that in a Assemblies of God seminary.Rich Birch — Yes.John Plake —Things like that, you know, that’s just not the way we roll.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Yes.John Plake — But it was so authentic and he wasn’t being mean.Rich Birch — No.John Plake — He was just saying, boy, I don’t I don’t get it. And then they said, you know, we really want a guide. Rich Birch — That’s good.John Plake — And so we pushed on that a little bit. At the time, there were some clergy abuse scandals that actually there were billboards up in Chicago about clergy abuse scandals that all of us lamented. And so we’re like, OK, listen, do you trust the church to be your guide? Because ee saw these billboards, you know, and it’s your city. And so what what do you think?John Plake — And they said, well, of course we do. I mean, it’s terrible when people in the church abuse their position and abuse others. And that’s not what they’re supposed to do. But if we can’t trust the church to help us understand the Bible, what good are they, really? And so, yes, we’re looking to you, church, to help us connect more deeply with the Bible, understand what it meant to the original hearers and readers and how we apply it to our lives today.Rich Birch — Okay, that’s yeah, that’s really cool. I look forward to hearing more about the movable middle in this coming year. Another thing that jumped out to me, which I feel like, man, I’ve seen this in my church. This is like you you named a group that I see, but it’s surprising, at least it’s surprising on its face. So nearly half of weekly church attenders, weekly church attenders, which is, that’s like really engaged, you know, are not regularly engaging, engaging scripture on their own.Rich Birch — Man, what, so what should we do about that? That’s an interesting, how does, how should that impact our discipleship strategy? What are you encouraging us to be thinking about? And these people that are with us all the time, but they’re not engaged with scripture.John Plake — Well, I think the first thing to do is to just recognize it. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — You know, a lot of pastors that I’ve talked to, when we talk about scripture engagement, they tell me things like this: Everything we do is scripture engagement. I spend my whole week preparing a scriptural message. I’m, you know, we’re preparing small group curriculum and Sunday school curriculum and all of this stuff. It’s all about the, everything we do is about the Bible. John Plake — Well, okay. But I had a I had a young youth pastor come to me not that long ago and he said, John, look, you were me once a few years ago. If you knew then what you know now, what would you do differently?John Plake — And the answer is I would do everything differently, than the way I ought to do it. Because what, in my tradition, there was a lot of emphasis on the preaching event, and I put a lot of effort into those communication events, but what I didn’t put as much effort into is empowering people in my church to do what I was doing, which was dig into scripture, understand it for themselves, giving them the tools to do that.John Plake — And then in May, we’re going to be releasing a chapter, just in a few few days now, we’re going to be releasing a chapter all about parents. And one of the startling things is the time pressure that moms are under. I mean, it’s incredible. And so we need to understand where they’re coming from and where they have barriers, but also have some compassion on them and help to support them when they’re really facing struggles. Like they don’t have enough time. They don’t have the resources or the community coming around them to help them to engage God’s word ah more fulsomely, more transformatively.John Plake — We know how to do this stuff, but we’re not connecting the dots to everybody that’s coming to hear us talk every…Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. I know I’ve in my seat as an XP, um you know, I’ve overseen a lot of what we do on the programming side and what we do on the weekends. And I’ve, you know, it’s like, that i don’t think I’ve ever said this publicly. It’s like the kind of behind the scenes conversation. I’ve sometimes wondered, I’ve said, you know, like, what we do on the weekend to try to make the Bible understandable is so completely different than Tuesday morning in someone’s life. Rich Birch — Like, we pull out all the stops to make it interesting. We get like world class communicators, incredible graphics, you know, emotional music, all of this to try to… But then the question is, okay, so now on Tuesday morning when you’re tired and you haven’t had your coffee yet and you’re just about to go read scripture, man, like that feels like a long ways away. There’s like a gap there that I sometimes wonder maybe we’re making it worse. You know. Maybe we’re making it harder. I said that. You didn’t say that. Rich Birch — So maybe there’s pastors that are listening here and they read this kind of report. They read this kind of finding and they’re like, hey, that’s interesting. But like, how what do I do in my church specifically? So you know we want we don’t want to just leave people with a tough stat.Rich Birch — I think we see that in our church. There’s people in our church that are here all the time. They’re not that engaged. But you’ve actually developed a new tool or ABS has developed a new tool to help us think through that. Why don’t you walk us through it? Tell us a little bit about it. How’s it work? Talk us how it can help us.John Plake — Yeah, so recently we developed two tools that kind of work together. One of them you can find on the internet at nextstep.bible. And it’s just for anybody who’s like, hey, I’m on a spiritual journey. I’m kind of stuck. I don’t really know what to do next. Maybe you’re just getting started exploring what it means to be a Christian. Maybe you’re Jesus’ little brother or sister. Wherever you are in that journey, there’s always a next step for us.John Plake — And so what we’ve done is analyzed along about a million spiritual life surveys. Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — And from this huge quantity of data, we’ve learned that people are at different places in that journey. They’re at different points on the map. And we want to make sure that they’re equipped to have the right thing at the right time. I think currently there are 21,000 scripture engagement resources available there.Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — They’re absolutely free. They’re in English, Spanish, and French. So go check it out, nextstep.bible.John Plake — But if you’re a pastor or you’re a church leader, you’re probably wondering, well, what’s going on in my church, right? So I see all the national data, but I think our tendency is to say, well, we’re the exception, right?Rich Birch — So true. Well, that’s not our people. John Plake — I know I know everybody else is struggling, but we’re doing okay.Rich Birch — Yes.John Plake — And and so it’s good to check our assumptions a little bit. They used to say a really sad statistic that 10 o’clock on Sunday morning was the most segregated hour in America, which makes me sad. What makes me sad also is that 12 o’clock noon in America is the most dishonest hour in America. That’s the hour when pastors tend to start greeting their people after the church service closes and they hear all these comments: oh, Pastor, that was the best sermon I’ve ever heard. And it wasn’t. It just wasn’t. All right, let’s face it.John Plake — There’s somebody out there who preaches better than you do and better than I do. They’re available on YouTube. People don’t need you to be the best Bible teacher in the world. They need you to be the best pastor for them. Rich Birch — That’s good.John Plake — And the tools that are all about focusing on their relationship with the Bible, their holistic spiritual formation, and our leadership behaviors. And so for that, we built the Next Step for Church Assessment.John Plake — It’s actually standing on the foundation or built on the engine block, if you want a different metaphor, of the old reveal research that the Willow Creek Association had come out with. It’s no longer available. And we were able to acquire all of their historical learnings, but also add in things like human flourishing and e-pastoral leadership behaviors that lead to churches really being missionally effective and strong. Excellent stuff on Bible engagement and spiritual formation. John Plake — So the the big challenge we had, I was talking with Dr. Ed Stetzer about this because he was at LifeWay Research when the Transformational Church Assessment was being built. And it was always hard because analyzing this kind of data required a lot of human intervention. It’s very expensive to do. It’s very complicated to deliver. And even a small cost can be a barrier for churches that have strained budgets. It doesn’t matter if you’re a church of, you know, 2,500 25,000 or 250. There’s always more places to put your money than there are dollars that are available to do it.John Plake — And so at American Bible Society, we said, you know what, as a gift to the church, because we love the church, we need to make it completely free. And so you can go to church.nextstep.bible and you could sign up today. Literally, we’re recording this on a on a Thursday. You could go there today and by Sunday, you could be launching your survey. Two weeks later, you’d automatically have results in your own online dashboard. You’d get key highlights emailed to you. There’s a place for custom questions. There’s just all kinds of really, really rich information.Rich Birch — So good.John Plake — And it it doesn’t take the place of the kind of learning that you have as a pastor. You learn deeply in relationship with others. You’re observing what’s going on. You have a team that’s around you. But what it does is it provides this valid, reliable sift and sort function. It’s based on well, I don’t know even know how many, well over 3000 churches, well over half a million survey responses went into building this and making it a tool that that is a good benchmark for you to say, you know what, if we want to move from where we are today to where God is calling us, here are the things we need to focus on.Rich Birch — It’s so good. And friends, I want to encourage you to to go there. Just church.nextstep.bible. I know many of us have a heart for saying, listen, we want to measure more than just nickels and noses. The number of people that show up and revenue that comes in. And this a great way to kind of inject at something that’s at the core of what we’re supposed to be doing as a church. So why don’t we just give a little bit more detail?Rich Birch — What is it? You know, what’s it actually measuring? How is it? You know, how could it be helpful? How how could it kind of dovetail with some of the things we’re already tracking? Maybe give us, you know, what kind of insights are we going to gain from this if we if we put our people through this?John Plake — Yeah, maybe it’s worthwhile to just back up and say it’s based on a congregational assessment. So really this kind of work is all about just listening to your congregation at scale. So if you have 25 people coming to church, you can probably have this conversation with them if you know how to ask the right questions. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — You can go to the website. You’re like, what’s in the survey? There’s a button you can click. You can read the whole survey. It’s fine. We’re not going to try and surprise you with anything. But really simple stuff. How’s your relationship with Jesus? How often are you interacting with Scripture? What difference is that making in your life? We ask the standard Harvard human flourishing questions. We ask about um how the pastoral team or the senior pastor, him or herself, is doing at actually modeling Christlike leadership for you. Rich Birch — It’s so good.John Plake — And all of that reporting then gets brought into a database. It’s all anonymous. So individuals don’t, they don’t have to tell you who they are. They can’t tell you who they are other than by characteristics. And you’re going to get this really good, robust picture of what’s going on at the church. John Plake — Now, what does it take for somebody to do that? It takes about 20 minutes of their time, and time is expensive, right? People always have too much to do. So in return for that investment, at the end of their survey experience, they will have already told us everything we need to know to match them to great resources at nextstep.bible.John Plake — And with their permission, not without it, they can click a button, pass that data over to the individual nextstep.bible platform. They can create an account and right away, they’re going to be finding things like YouVersion Bible reading plans that are just for them.John Plake — If you’ve got people in your church and they’re outliers, they’re they’re way more spiritually advanced than everybody else, or they’re just getting started and everybody else is way ahead of them, these kinds of tools create bespoke pathways for them so they know what to do next. All the while, the church leadership can sit back and say, okay, here’s our results. And as a team, now what do we need to do to serve the whole congregation well?Rich Birch — I love this. You know, this is what incredible tool that you’ve put together here for our churches to wrestle through and to, you know, not only help us as a church as we’re thinking about these issues, but then help individuals in our church. What what would be some of the ways that churches might use the data that’s generated to impact what we’re doing in our programming? How how could we use this to improve what we’re doing?John Plake — Sure. There are really three things we want everybody to do. First, just discover what’s going on. Just just check your assumptions at the door and and say, okay, what do the data tell us about what’s going on in our church life and in our people’s lives? That’s the first thing.John Plake — Second thing is it’s going to surface for you the top three things that you’re doing great. And it’s going to give them to you in the report. And you need to throw a party. Like there are people who make these things happen for you. No pastor is doing this all by themselves. And so plan a party, celebrate what’s going well.John Plake — The third thing it’s going to do is it’s going to give you suggestions about, okay, here’s where your congregation is today. It won’t surprise you, but it might inform you. I’ve never seen a pastor look at the report and go, ah you guys got it wrong. Rich Birch — Sure, right.John Plake — Usually they they see the report and they go, yeah, okay, yeah, you got me.Rich Birch — Yeah. Confirmed some hunches I’ve had. Yeah. Yeah.John Plake — Right? But we don’t we don’t have time. We don’t have the resources. We don’t have the expertise to be able to sit down and and kind of scientifically walk through this process. So we do that for you. We deliver the report. And then we’re going to give you two key action items that we think churches like yours in a similar place have done that have helped move them toward spiritual health and missional effectiveness.John Plake — And that’s really what it’s all about. We want your congregation to be spiritually healthy. We want your your church as a whole to be missionally effective. And when that happens, often there’s numerical growth. Often there’s financial growth. But there’s certainly more missional impact that’s coming through your congregation and its work.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. So if I’m like a church of a thousand people, let’s say, and just round number to picking out of the sky, how how what kind of percentage of my congregation would I need to take this to give me a reasonable, you know, statistical, you know, feeling good about the data for it? What what kind of number um should I be thinking about?John Plake — Well, the first thing is we’ve built in a tool that will tell you how to get to a margin of error of plus or minus 3%. Rich Birch — Love it.John Plake — And that does vary depending on the adult attendance that you have. So let’s say you’ve a thousand adults. And by adults, I mean anybody in high school or older can probably take this survey. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — And you can cut the data like by gender or by age. All of that live filtering is in the online platform. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s so good.John Plake — So if you’re the you’re the youth pastor and you’re like, well, wait, tell me about the young people that took the survey. You can just look right at them and compare them to the rest of the congregation, which I bet will be enlightening. But nevertheless, how many do you need if you’re a church of 1,000, it’s about 275.Rich Birch — Okay.John Plake — If it’s a smaller church than that, then you’re still going to need a pretty significant percentage. So if I roll that all the way down to a church of 100, you need 80.Rich Birch — Okay.John Plake — And if you roll that up to a church of 5,000, well, you don’t need that many more than 275.Rich Birch — Interesting.John Plake — So you’re going to report that out to you. It’s very, very doable. And, you know, I’ve pastored at large churches and I pastored a small church. And I’ll tell you, when I pastored a church of under 100, I could have gotten a census of the people, like everybody, to do a survey like this. They would have been glad to tell me these things. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — And it’s not that I couldn’t have had a conversation one-on-one with most of the adults in the congregation. It was something different in that case. I actually didn’t know what to ask. I used to run into this when I was a campus pastor at a Christian university. And I would have young people walk into my office and I was like, I know I should be able to help them, but the challenge they’re facing is different than anything I’m familiar with. I don’t have any analog for this in my personal experience. And so this sort of takes the mystery away. We don’t ask fluffy questions. We ask research proven questions that are going to give you the information you really need so you can take action.Rich Birch — That’s amazing. That’s think this is such a great tool for people. I can see how, you know, it’d be so helpful for folks that are listening in to, you know, might be be able to plug in grab this experience for their people, help their church, help the folks that are attending. That’s, that’s incredible.Rich Birch — So, you know, you’ve picked an interesting vocation to be connected with the American Bible Society. And because, you know, this is such a critical and important part of developing people’s relationship, obviously, with Jesus; its core to all of it. And we have seen a long historical downward trend, and you’re pushing against that, which is amazing. But what gives you hope in the middle of all of that? What would it when you look at the church around you know, the country, where do you see flashes of just good things going on that are like, you know, when it comes to the relationship with scripture that even, you know, even when we see maybe the overall numbers are not as great as we want them to be, what are some kind of flashes of hope we should, that we could encourage folks with today?John Plake — Well, I’d like to maybe point to just three things that leap to mind. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — The first of them is I never talk to anybody in the church who says the Bible is a bad idea. Rich Birch — Sure.John Plake — Everybody likes the Bible. We’re all trying to figure out how to communicate its message better, to understand it more deeply. It’s transforming our lives, and we want to be able to share it with others. John Plake — And that’s great because, number two, there’s nothing that makes a bigger difference in somebody’s spiritual life than their relationship with the Bible. I mean, absolutely nothing. And I’m saying this as a researcher. I’ve tested it. I can’t find anything that makes a bigger difference. John Plake — In fact, when we looked at Christian college and university students, 60% of their overall spiritual health across lots of domains—beliefs, practice, putting faith into action, loving God, loving others, all these things, 60% of the variance in their spiritual health is solely accounted for by their relationship with the Bible.John Plake — So if we can help people have a dynamic relationship with scripture, we win. That’s all there is to it. It’s just that simple. And so that is really encouraging.John Plake — And then the third thing, ah the third thing is how I say this nicely? I'm I’m from Gen X and so to my Baby Boomer friends, I’m sorry, but you guys don’t have the influence that you once did.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.John Plake — And that’s a good thing because there’s new openness among Millennials, and Gen Z and even younger Gen X um that we just don’t see among Baby Boomers. It’s like Baby Boomers made up their minds in the 60s and early 70s and said, this is what I believe and I’m not changing. And they haven’t. John Plake — That’s not to say that someone who’s a Baby Boomer can’t have a a spiritual experience and transformational experience. It does happen. But on the population level, like when we looked at the Bay Area of San Francisco, if you look at the scripture engagement, church engagement, love God, love others data in the Bay Area, it looks like what you’d expect, until you strip out the Baby Boomers. And then suddenly it looks better than every place else in America.John Plake — You’re like, what’s going on? Well, looks like all the unreconstructed hippies that moved to the Bay Area are actually holding a lid on the population numbers. And when you remove that and you go, oh, wait a minute, let me look under the headline and say what’s happening. There’s more going on than is easy to see. And I think this happens in big national trends.John Plake — Oh, is Scripture engagement up or down? Is you know church attendance up or down? Whats what’s going… big national trends. Yeah, okay, those are helpful, and we want those to change. But what’s changing first is below the fold. Things in Gen Z, things among Millennials, things in young men, those things are starting to change, and I think those are the first glimmerings that God is at work in a new way in America, and I can’t wait to see it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s a great word. And that lines up with what we’re seeing, even just experientially talking to churches across the country. You know we’re so we’re seeing there is something going on with younger generations, which is great to see. I was I was born in 1974, the lowest birth rate year of the 20th century. I am classic Gen X. Like you know I am like statistic I’m the statistical average Gen X and has spent a lot of my time trying to hand stuff from the Boomers to the Millennials. And, yeah, there’s lots of encouraging news there, particularly with the younger generations. Rich Birch — I also want to speak to on the the work I’ve done in the church growth stuff that I’ve done and coaching I’ve done with churches, one of the things that’s just undeniable is churches that have a high view of scripture, that is, they’re trying to get people engaged with scripture. They they talk about it like it’s actually true. How do we say don’t know what’s the best way to talk about that? Those are the churches that are prevailing, and that actually works out statistically. You see that time and again. Talk to us about that dynamic, which is kind of co-related to the things we’re talking about today. From your perspective in the stats and all that, how how have you seen that work out as you’ve looked at churches across the country?John Plake — Yeah, I think you’re exactly right. The churches that are the healthiest in America, that are growing, that where where people are spiritually healthy, have a really dynamic relationship with Scripture. And it kind of it cuts across tradition. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — There are some traditional things going on. I was listening to Justin Brierley and his surprising Rebirth of Belief in God podcast, and it was from last season, and he he had someone on, he was interviewing, and what she was saying was there are the parts of the church that seem to be thriving are kind of the, the the older, the ancientness traditions, whether it’s Catholic or Orthodox, that what she called somewhat irreverently, the smells and bells side of of the church.Rich Birch — Sure, sure.John Plake — And on the other side, kind of my end of the swimming pool, I’m, from the Assemblies of God, so the Pentecostal and Charismatic side. And she said, what’s going on is that both ends of that spectrum are totalizing. John Plake — They’re saying, you know what, the the Bible places certain expectations and demands on people. Christ places certain expectations and demands on people. And these parts of the church aren’t sort of shy about talking about that from a biblical perspective. She said, what’s what’s dying is that part in the middle where we’ve reduced church to a PowerPoint and you know an Excel spreadsheet. And she said, that part of the church seems to be dying and no one’s coming to the funeral. Rich Birch — That’s good. John Plake — And I thought, you know okay, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.John Plake — So if we revitalize our relationship with God through scripture, there’s a next step for every church. It doesn’t matter what, you know whether you’re mainline or evangelical or, you know, Pentecostal or Orthodox or whatever it is, but but reviving our relationship with God through Scripture is really where it’s at.Rich Birch — That’s so good. i Yeah, I call that middle group the just because it rhymes doesn’t mean it’s true group. You know, like the, you know, were just like, it’s all my thoughts. No one wants to come and find us. They want to find God ultimately. Well, I don’t want to pick any fights with anybody that’s listening in, but I really appreciate today’s conversation, John. This has been great. So we want to send people to church.nextstep.bible.Rich Birch — The the promise of in two weeks, your church could have a comprehensive report on spiritual health, on where your church is, spiritual health is at, that’s a huge promise. And so again, this is go to church.nextstep.bible. Any kind of final words as we wrap up today’s episode?John Plake — You know, you might be familiar with Cally Parkinson. Cally was the co-author of all of the Reveal books, every single one of them. She was head of communications for the Willow Creek Association when they were running this. She’s probably had more conversations with pastors and church leaders about survey results like this than anybody I know, maybe than anybody alive. And Cally likes this so much. She said, John, I want to have a personal consultation with the first hundred churches that go through this.John Plake — And so if you want to be in that group, she’s going to offer to spend an hour with you and just walk through your results and help explain it. There are videos throughout the platform that will explain it as well. And you can’t beat talking to Cally. She loves pastors. She says you’re the salt of the earth. And she just really wants to serve you because the work that you do to save people is just so valuable to her. So anyway, just wanted to offer that. And I know you’d probably love to meet Cally.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. Well, appreciate you being here today. Thanks for the great work you do at the American Bible Society. John, appreciate you being on today. Thank you.John Plake — Thank you.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Ted Coniaris, lead pastor of Community Christian Church in the greater Chicagoland area. After an intentional and extended succession process with founding pastor Dave Ferguson, Ted has stepped into the lead role during a pivotal season for the church. In this conversation, he shares what it looks like to lead through transition, clarify vision, and build a disciple-making ecosystem for the future. A transition built on trust and clarity. // Ted describes a multi-year succession process that included months of private conversations, an 18-month apprenticeship, and a highly visible transition with full support from church leadership. One of the most unique elements was launching a new vision before the transition was complete. While unconventional, this approach created immediate alignment and buy-in across the church. Because the process was prayerful, transparent, and unified, the congregation experienced less anxiety than expected, resulting in what Ted describes as a surprising sense of peace and readiness for what's next. Renovating, not rebuilding. // Ted uses the language of “renovation” to describe the church's next chapter. Community Christian Church has a rich 37-year history of helping people find their way back to God, especially those far from faith. Rather than starting from scratch, Ted is focused on building on that foundation while addressing a critical gap: what happens after people come to faith? This has led to a renewed focus on creating a clear and intentional disciple-making ecosystem. A bold, layered vision for the future. // Ted outlines a four-part vision that builds sequentially: every heart on fire, every person a pastor, every child and student equipped, and every neighborhood a thriving church. This framework begins with spiritual passion—not just participation—emphasizing that people today are searching for something deeper than casual faith. From there, the vision moves toward activating every believer in ministry, taking seriously the priesthood of all believers. The end result is a multiplying movement of disciples impacting communities at scale. Rethinking discipleship through Growth Track. // To support this vision, the church is developing a clear pathway called Growth Track, built around three movements: Alpha, Disciple, and Pastor. The goal is not just information or assimilation, but transformation and activation. Ted emphasizes helping every person identify their calling, answering the question, “Who am I called to reach?” This reframes discipleship from passive participation to active mission. Ancient practices for modern renewal. // One of the more surprising shifts has been a return to ancient spiritual disciplines. Through rhythms like “Ignite Week”—a church-wide season of prayer, fasting, and reflection—Ted is seeing increased spiritual intensity across all age groups. These rhythms create deeper roots than one-time events, shaping both individual lives and the overall culture of the church. A multiplying model through microchurches. // In addition to strengthening internal discipleship, Community Christian is expanding outward through a rapidly growing microchurch movement. With hundreds of microchurches already launched globally, the model focuses on simple, scalable principles: low control, high support, and strong coaching relationships. Rather than centralizing growth in large gatherings, this approach empowers everyday people to lead and reach others in their own contexts—creating the potential for exponential impact. The leader's soul is the strategy. // Ted closes with a powerful reminder: the most important strategy a leader has is their own spiritual health. Passion for God, integrity, and relational support are foundational. Ministry is difficult, but leaders who tend their own spiritual lives and refuse isolation will be better equipped to lead others effectively. To learn more about Community Christian Church, visit communitychristian.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited to have you listening in today. GI gotta be totally honest. I asked this person to come on today to have a bit of an update conversation from a conversation we had out just over a year ago. I’m really excited for this because it’s kind of fun to follow along with this story. And this is an area that really is, applies to all of our churches and I want all of us to lean in. And so pay attention, whether you’re cutting your grass or whatever you’re doing for the next 30 minutes, it’s going to be a great conversation.Rich Birch — We’ve got Ted Coniaris with us. He is the lead pastor at a fantastic church, a multi-site church in the greater Chicagoland area called Community Christian. They have, if I’m counting correctly, seven physical locations, as well as micro churches that meet in homes throughout the week and online space, plus community freedom locations, which meet in correctional facilities across the region as well. Ted, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Ted Coniaris — Thanks, Rich. Really glad to be here. Great to see you again. We get to cross paths a few times a year, so it’s always great to connect. Appreciate the time.Rich Birch — I appreciate you you taking time to come on and and connect. Friends that are listening in, just kind of bringing you up to speed. We’ll link to the previous episode if you want to go back and and check that. But the last time we talked, you were apprenticing as the lead pastor at Community Christian under Dave Ferguson. And I think that was a year ago. And you you know there’s all the steps. I think you were step three, step four, somewhere in there. Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — And there was this handoff on the horizon. And now we’re on the other side of that. And so that’s part of why I wanted to get you on. Here we are a year later. Let’s talk about those things. You’re still there. So that’s a good thing.Ted Coniaris — I mean, as far as you know, this could be a fake backdrop. Who knows?Rich Birch — Yeah, true this is the… Yeah, so you know what? You were…Ted Coniaris — No, it is true.Rich Birch — It takes a lot of time. Talk to us through, you know, what’s happened since then. Talk us about that transition. Kind of bring us up to speed.Ted Coniaris — Absolutely. So as you said, we went through an 18 month apprenticeship, but before that we had about six, eight, probably eight months of conversations just Dave and I, before we went above ground with elders and everything else, maybe even a little longer than that. So it was quite a long process walking through our apprenticeship process as a church and really wanting to do that at the highest level, just like we do at every level of leadership as a church. Ted Coniaris — So that was an amazing process. Dave is an incredible leader and even better man and somebody that it was a great privilege to spend more and more time with him. He and Sue—his wife—Melissa and I spending time with them, and then John and and Lisa, his brother and his wife. We spent a lot of time together, so it was great. And then since then, May, they’re still around. They’re still a part of our church. Dave is now the CEO of Exponential, spending full time doing that.Ted Coniaris — And John is leading something called the Chicago Collective, which is a network of churches, networks of churches throughout Chicagoland, working to plant more churches, which we desperately need in Chicago area. So if you’re listening, you’re like, man, I’m thinking about planning a church in Chicago. Please reach out to me. I would love to help you do that. We desperately need more more churches here.Ted Coniaris — So since then, it’s been great. Honestly, there’s been so much change, so many things going on, but it’s truly, truly been really, really good. I think I’m tired in the right ways. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — I’m probably also tired in some of the wrong ways too… Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — …but it’s been a great it’s been a great transition.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. You know, when we you were on last time, you were talking about really stewarding the mission of the future, while also chasing new vision, which is, is at that phase kind of easy to say, you’re like, okay, we’re looking forward to the future. Now you’re in the seat. And it’s like, you got to keep doing that. Now that you’re sitting there.,you know, what’s become clearer for you as you’ve thought about the next chapter and, and, you know, as you think about the future, what are, cause there may be some questions you’re wrestling with as you’re thinking, you know, up over to the horizon. Yeah. What are the things that are, are, are bubbling in your brain on that front?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, great question. I mean, so much has become more clear. But one of the great gifts that I felt like the Lord gave us as a church in this transition on the very front end was a real clarity and unity around our new vision as a church. It’s not so typical to launch a new vision for the church before the transition has even occurred. And I wouldn’t recommend that in other situations, but it just, the way that it went with us, this just felt like what the Lord was leading us to do.Ted Coniaris — So we actually actually launched the new vision for the church while Dave was still the lead pastor. And he stood right there beside me and in full support with our elders and everyone else. And so it was actually unique in that way. But that’s just really been confirmed. Honestly, that’s been one of the biggest things that I am grateful for through this process is just the Lord’s gift of clarity on the front end and just giving me ah real clear direction to run. Ted Coniaris — And I would say too, that there’s a big difference between a transition that’s been prayed over for years. Rich Birch — That’s good. Right, right.Ted Coniaris — It just lands differently than a transition.That’s just like been negotiated in some back room somewhere. You know, it’s like this…Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — This has been prayed through and put above ground and has been a really healthy, visible process that I think resulted in the church just being wide open, saying, yeah, this feels right. This feels good. And we’re in. And so almost it’s like a a sense of exhale that I’ve been experiencing, which has surprised me…Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — …in the church.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — I thought there would be more anxiety in the transition. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — But there’s really been like a quiet permission-giving that’s happened.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — Almost like, you know, just the family knew the transition was healthy so they could just sort of relax into it and say, okay, what’s next?Rich Birch — Right. Right.Ted Coniaris — And in hindsight, what felt a little crazy of launching the vision now feels like if we hadn’t have done that, we would have missed a real amazing opportunity because people were really bought in right from the get-go, which has been great.Rich Birch — Well, and what, yeah, that’s great. And in hindsight, being able to look back at that moment and saying like, no, like, yeah, maybe not the kind of thing that you write in a book and say, that’s the way to do it. But it’s like, we did that. And there’s in hindsight, man, amazing to have kind of both of your endorsements on the future direction. And like, Hey, we’re excited to be going in this direction. There was a mutual support there that ended up accelerating pointing things to the future. That’s incredible. That’s great.Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so now it’s really…Go ahead. Sorry.Rich Birch — No, you go ahead. You go. Go ahead.Ted Coniaris — Okay. Yeah. Now it’s in the season where it’s how do we take that vision, that sort of north star for the future and building on their 37-year history as a church that’s been so rich and good in and move in this new direction, but also be aligned with our past.Ted Coniaris — You know, it’s not about tradition, but it is about, you know, God has been doing a unique and wonderful thing here that we want to continue in, but also kind of build on what’s next. So I felt like as a church, one of our great strengths as community, and this is really a reflection of Dave and John, is we’re a community where everyone is welcome. Like that that’s without a doubt. Anybody and everybody can walk through these doors and probably tens of thousands of people have over these last 37 years, and found their way back to God. It’s incredible. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.Ted Coniaris — I mean, when it comes to that zero to one, those people finding the Lord from a really hard spot, man, God has just used this church in such miraculous and amazing ways for so long. And we want to keep that. Like we love that about this place and just think it’s an amazing amazing strength of this community. But now we want to answer sort of the next question, which is now what? So everyone’s welcome.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — Now what? Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And so we want to build on that path towards what’s in the future. And the way we’re talking about it here is sort of renovating our disciple-making ecosystem, which is a big mouthful. But you know it’s renovating, and it’s a certainly a lot of you know jargon, but bear with me for a second.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — You know, we’re renovating because we’re not starting from scratch.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — We’ve got a great house, a great church.Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — Things are great. It’s time for a renovation. And what we’re renovating is a very clear, focused outcome, which is disciple-making. And I think that’s an area where we have not been as strong over the years. It’s like that first part of the journey. And we have a lot of evangelists here and we’re passionate. We want to keep that. But we also want to answer that that: now what? That disciple-making ecosystem. And it’s an ecosystem because not any one thing, this program doesn’t make you a disciple-making church. Rich Birch — Right, right. Ted Coniaris — Or just a good teacher doesn’t make you a disciple-making church. It’s all of these things kind of together create an environment and a path for that to happen. And so we’re just renovating all of those things with the vision, teaching, creating new rhythms as a church, and also creating a, for the first time for us at least, a clear disciple making process, which we’re we’re calling it Growth Track.Ted Coniaris — And a lot of churches use that term. But just trying to say, okay, our vision is to see every person step into their God-given calling to be a pastor. If every person is a pastor, it’s like, what if we actually took the priesthood of believers seriously? Right? And how would that change our disciple-making process if that was the end result? Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Right? I think a lot of times we can slip into being really like our disciple-making becomes more about assimilation. Or more about collecting a certain level of information or knowledge or even practice.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.Ted Coniaris — But we’re trying to have a different output. We want to see people finding their way back to God, which has always been the core of our mission, and then released as pastors in the world and equipped to do that. Ted Coniaris — And so what’s our process for taking someone from a seeker to a pastor. We really didn’t have that. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And so we’re in the process right now of just building all of that out, aligning all of our teams and creating just a clear answer to that, that “now what” question.Rich Birch — Yeah, love that. And, you know, that makes sense for a church of of this age. You know, people have changed, you know, what we used to call seekers or the people that were arriving, they’re different. It’s like the most obvious thing to say, but people are different today than they were 37 years ago when this ball got rolling. Rich Birch — And and what what are some of those early changes that you’ve made to renovate? What are some of those things that that do look a little bit different or are are, you know, kind of pointing in a new direction? Where where what are you learning on that that front?Ted Coniaris — Well, obviously the first one is the new vision, and I’ll just share that really, really quickly.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — But it’s, and they all build on each other. That’s really the the key for us. And while this is unique to Community Christian Church, it’s not a vision that’s unique to Community Christian Church. Like, I think this is really like a biblical thing, but it starts with every heart on fire.Ted Coniaris — And it talks about, when you ask the question about what’s different, I think one of the things that’s really different, people aren’t looking just for a place to blend in the background and be like, oh, this is cool.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — You’re cool Jesus followers. I’m cool. We can be cool together. This is cool. That is, that is… Rich Birch — That’s amazing. I love it. Ted Coniaris — That is not what the next generation is looking for. Rich Birch — No.Ted Coniaris — They are looking for fire.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — They are looking for passion. And rightfully so. Rightfully so. Thank God for that. Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so we want to lean into it. We don’t want to be a place where everybody’s buddies with Jesus. We want to create a place where people are consumed by him. Rich Birch — That’s good. Ted Coniaris — Just like the disciples on the road to Emmaus talked about, you know, we’re not our hearts beating or burning within us when they talk with Jesus along the road. That’s that’s the kind of community we want to be, a consumed community. And that’s the starting place for everything else. Everything else. And that’s not just emotionalism. It’s a passion for. It’s it’s a a focus on. Ted Coniaris — The second part, which builds on that, it’s not even worth going to the second part if you don’t do the first thing. The second part is every person a pastor, right? Because if you start with every person a pastor, but the heart’s not on fire, there’s not a passion and a consuming focus, you know, what kind of pastors are you raising, right?Rich Birch — Right, right.Ted Coniaris — It’s not the kind that the world needs. And so it’s every heart fire, then every person a pastor just really taking seriously the priesthood of all believers. I’m not the pastor, you know. You all are the pastors. I function as a pastor in this context, but you function as a pastor in whatever context God has placed you.Ted Coniaris — And if we could do those two things, if we can have every heart and fire and every person released into their God-given calling as a pastor, then maybe we could accomplish the third thing, which is every child and student equipped. Rich Birch — Wow. Yep.Ted Coniaris — Because that’s going to take all hands on deck. What our kids, what my kids, I have 16, 14, and 10-year-old, all boys. So please pray for us. But what what my boys are facing today, it’s like the challenges I faced have been weaponized and placed in the hands of every single kid. And yet our student and youth ministry, our kids and and student ministry, looks almost identical to what it did look like 37 years ago. Why is that? I mean, there’s different strategies, practice in those sort things.Rich Birch — That doesn’t make sense. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — But if you look at like the form even of itself, we’re like, it kind of looks the same. It looks sort of like the youth group I went to as a kid. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And I think we need to be doing a lot more and investing more in the next generation in in relational deep ways. But it can’t happen without every heart and fire and every person being a pastor. And if we can do that, every heart of fire, every person pastor, every child and student equipped, then we can accomplish the Great Commission, right? Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And that’s really the last part of the vision, which is every neighborhood a thriving church. Because the way you change the world is by having you know a community of Christ followers, place where Jesus is King, we’re on mission together within arm’s reach of every person on the planet.Ted Coniaris — You know that’s, that’s the plan. And so that’s what we’re targeting and going after. So that’s different. And so for us to do those things, there’s things we’re trying to change and layer in behind that. Really renovating our teaching ministry. We’re kind of going old school. We’re going back through like long series, books of the Bible, just walking through scripture, teaching people the Bible, just like the disciples on that road to Emmaus. You know, that was when Jesus opened the scriptures to them. It’s lit this fire inside of them.Ted Coniaris — I think that’s even more necessary. 37 years ago, basically a Christian culture-ish. Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — Today, not so much. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — So nobody’s walking through the doors with like this biblical knowledge. They’re walking through the doors with nothing.Rich Birch — That’s so true, yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so, you know, we need to do that. So we’re doing that, creating rhythms in our calendar years. A lot more I could say about that. Spiritual disciplines communally, not just as individuals, feels maybe like a little spin on liturgical calendars of old. Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — We’re embracing some of that in a new way for us.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And then this this Growth Track is a big part of that. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And then there’s there’s more beyond that, but that’s just a few of the things.Rich Birch — Dude, I love it. I love I love the how those four layer on. I love the focus. I think it totally just feels right on with where you know culture’s at. Could you unpack a little bit of what you’re doing with Growth Track? What does that look like, that particular tactic in the… You know I think the idea of every person a pastor is a very compelling, that’s like a lean-in, “what did you just say?” kind of thing. Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — And then but what are you, you know, help us, help us understand, you know, a little bit of that, what you’re doing with Growth Track to kind of point towards that.Ted Coniaris — You mean like the mechanics of it or like just the overall strategy?Rich Birch — Yeah. How’s it work? What are you teaching there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What, yeah, what’s, what is it?Ted Coniaris — Well, it’s all…Rich Birch — How’s it work?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, we’re getting ready to to launch it all this fall. Rich Birch — Great. Ted Coniaris — And yeah, we’re really excited about it. But essentially, it’s it’s three steps. “One. Life. Go.” is kind of how we talk about the Growth Track. And the first step is tried and true. It’s Alpha. Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — I think Alpha is probably the single greatest tool available… Rich Birch — Sure. Sure. Ted Coniaris — …to help you know my friends and neighbors and family find their way back to God. I I love Alpha. I’m running an Alpha right now at an office with a buddy and his partners, all the partners of his business.Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — We’re doing Alpha together over lunch. It’s amazing.Rich Birch — Love it.Ted Coniaris — So Alpha is step one.Ted Coniaris — Step two, we call disciple because disciple is both a noun and a verb. It’s who you are and it’s what you do. And so it’s, you know, we’ve used Rooted in the past as a church and Rooted is fantastic. We love Rooted. It’s been helpful to for us. But we felt like there were ways in which we wanted to adjust that to our context a little bit more… Rich Birch — Sure. Ted Coniaris — …and also have an opportunity for people to make a commitment to the church. We don’t do membership, but we do ask people to commit to belonging here. And honestly, I think that’s a big missing step in the overall discipleship of a lot of like churches like ours. Because if you don’t have a commitment, and there’s just kind of growth that happens in your life that only can happen in a committed relationship. And it’s not about you committing to me. It’s really about us committing to each other. And when we do that, it opens the door to a different layer and level of transformation in your own life.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.Ted Coniaris — And committing to that unity on the front end is is really important. And so we want to do that. We also do several other things a part of that, but that’s kind of a general idea. Ted Coniaris — And then the third step is pastor. That’s the goal. That’s where we’re going.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — It’s also a noun and a verb, right? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Cool.Ted Coniaris — It’s who you are and it’s what you do. Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And this is designed to do that. So we took some learnings actually from Brian Sanders, and he has something called the Calling Lab. He does the Tampa Underground down in Florida.Ted Coniaris — He’s done some great work on that.Ted Coniaris — And it’s essentially a similar process of triangulating your true sense of calling. We want everybody in our church to be able to say, I exist to help blank find their way back to God. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Like, who are you called to reach?Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Because what’s a starting ground for someone to be a pastor? You know, like, is it education? Is it more this, more that? Well, I think the journey of learning and growing and honing your gifting, it has to start with the calling. And I think there are so many people who just, they don’t know how to finish that sentence. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — Even if it is your kids or your neighbors or your coworkers, have you really done the work? Have you invested to say, no, these are the people, like names and faces that I’m called to reach. And then I’m released into that context as a pastor. So when I show up to work, I want to show up. I’m the pastor of BMO Harris Bank today because that’s where I work and I’m a teller there.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — you know I’m the pastor of You know, my neighborhood and in Downers Grove, in my part, my north, you know, little west quadrant there. That’s what I want to show up. That’s what I want our whole church showing up as. Thousands and thousands of pastors released into every arena of life. And so a lot of churches have Growth Track, or something like it. We’re really trying to say, okay, what’s what is the unique thing that that we’re feeling Lord’s calling us to produce here? And that’s it. And so we’ve designed these steps to work together to produce that that thing in us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very cool.Ted Coniaris —Hope that’s helpful.Rich Birch — I love that. Oh, it’s super helpful. I love I love what you’re doing there. And that’s thanks for taking the time to unpack that. Rich Birch — Pivoting in a slightly different direction, we were together at Exponential at Dave’s event. And well, it’s not Dave’s event. I understand that. At the Exponential conference. And we were at a breakfast together. And you mentioned about some just kind of in passing some stuff that was going on at the church that was and part of it was some of this around spiritual vitality, you’re seeing that increase.Rich Birch — I’m assuming that some of these, you know, pieces of these puzzles coming together. But then you also talked about the kind of growth of your microchurch, you know, planting movement that’s connected to Community. Could you unpack that a little bit more? Tell us a little bit about, you know, that that, how does that fit into the whole story that God’s writing here?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, I think the spiritual vitality, I’ll start there. The way we talk about it a lot is it just feels like everywhere you go, the spiritual temperature is just increasing. In kids, in students, in adults, our small groups, in our services, it’s just across the board. There’s just like an increased heat or passion around our faith.Ted Coniaris — I think a part of that is is truthfully in a season of transition, there’s always an opportunity to be open to something new. And we’ve been trying to really place our focus on, well, what’s the new thing? Like, how what is the condition of your heart? Are you on fire, truly on fire? I think putting that question, that vision in front of us as a church has been refining – that in and of itself. Ted Coniaris — But we’ve also just seen, I mean, there’s so much I could speak to on this, but one of the things I’m just really excited about is what’s happening with our students right now. We talk a lot about students being the leaders of tomorrow’s church, but I’ll tell you here, they’re the leader of today’s church. Rich Birch — So true. Ted Coniaris — I mean, they are setting a tone with passion and a desire.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s very true.Ted Coniaris — Like we do our services. I’m at the Yellow Box location, right? It’s our Naperville church here. And teaching here on Sunday. And there’ll be a group of students that will just come and sit on the ground in front of the stage… Rich Birch — Right. Right. Ted Coniaris — …have their Bibles open with their notebook, taking notes. And then during worship, it’s like they’re in the pit of a concert. You know, they’re at the stage, hands up.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, it’s true.Ted Coniaris — And you’ve got a room full of thousands of adults watching this and they’re leading us. Nobody asked them to do it. Nobody told them to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — So I think some of it, I point to that. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Others other parts of it is we’ve really kind of pushed our chips into the middle on some of the ancient stuff instead of new trendy stuff… Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …specifically prayer and fasting.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool. Tell me more about that. I’d love to hear about that.Ted Coniaris — So yeah, earlier I talked about, you know, we’re embracing the calendar rhythms as a church.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — I really believe that, you know, rhythms are so much more powerful than events because, you know, an event is just a drop in the ocean. But if you can build some rhythms, you could actually build some roots. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — And, you know, our most valuable resources, our people, and our most valuable real estate is our calendar. And so we’ve said, you know, three times a year as sort of the calendar turns and that’s sort of the rhythm of our community. There’s sort of three seasons, there’s winter, there’s fall and there’s spring/summer. So to launch those seasons, we do what we now call an Ignite Week where we ask the whole church to commit to a full week of prayer and fasting. Rich Birch — Wow. Very cool.Ted Coniaris — And then we have intentional programming in that week to do like a full spiritual reset to say, okay, God, what are you saying to me right now? For the individual, we have like prayer and fasting guides to help guide people through that experience. For the groups, we do these discipleship conversations where we want everybody in each group to say, okay, what is God saying to me right now? And what am I doing to say yes to him?Ted Coniaris — And then for our locations, we take a break from all of our regular series stuff and we do Hearts on Fire Sunday. And we just say, okay, God, what are you doing here? What are you doing today? What are you doing right now? And it feels very different than our regular Sundays. Ted Coniaris — And then for the church as a whole, all of our locations together, we do what we call our Ignite Gathering on Saturday morning. It’s actually coming up this Saturday. And we just gather the whole church together. And what’s happened in these Ignite Gatherings is really exciting. It feels like a a catalyst for the rest of the church. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — It’s like the church we’re going to be a year from now, we get to see in that room on Saturday morning. Rich Birch — That’s very cool.Ted Coniaris — And ah after a week of prayer and fasting, gathering the church together to worship, to break the fast together in communion, it’s it’s powerful. Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — I mean, it is powerful. The environment of that space is so different There’s such a hunger for the Lord and honestly, a true actual physical hunger after all that fasting.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Ted Coniaris — But it’s it’s it’s really changing the whole, as I said earlier, this ecosystem of our church. so those are some of the real important you know pieces of that ecosystem. Rich Birch — Oh, I love that. Yeah, I love that. And and um it isn’t isn’t it interesting? So we’re seeing lots of that kind of things or echoes of that across the country where, you know, there’s a there’s been a shift that, you know, we’ll probably understand better five years from now. We’ll look back and we’ll put all the pieces together and understand what God’s doing. But it does appear like, you know, the Spirit’s on the move. They say, what is that? Aslan’s on the move, right? Something is shifting in people. And you know, we’re trying to keep pick keep pick up keep up with it and do what we can to continue to steward what’s here.Rich Birch — And my experience with, you know, our our churches would have similar backgrounds, similar history. You know, we’re a heart for people who don’t, and your church has a heart for people who who don’t follow Jesus. You know, we’re trying to create a space for those folks. But though my experience has been those people are different today than they were 20 years ago. That people are coming much more, it’s like they’re farther along in the process. They’re they’re much more engaged than than um than they have been in the past. And so they’re willing to jump into the deep end of the pool on some of this stuff, maybe even more quickly than our long-term people… Ted Coniaris — Yeah, I think that’s true. Rich Birch — …because of whatever God’s doing in in their life. That’s that’s, yeah, that’s really interesting. That’s a cool thing to, you know, to be a part of, to hear you know a part of that. What about on the microchurch side? What’s happening there?Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — What is that? Yeah, what’s that? What’s happening with that?Ted Coniaris — So during COVID, we just sort of began dipping our toe in the water of starting microchurches under this belief that the macrochurch movement, even megachurch, doesn’t need to be at odds or in conflict with the house church and microchurch movement. Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — Like, is there way for us to just see that as one thing instead of competing things, reaching all different kinds of people? And so we’ve just kind of dipped our toe in that. And here we are a few years later. Took us few years kind of figure out what we wanted to do. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — We’ve been doing it for about three years now. We have you know somewhere around, i was just texted the guy for the today number because it’s growing so fast, somewhere around 350 microchurches all around the world.Rich Birch — Wow.Ted Coniaris — And it’s it’s a simple, simple, simple strategy where you’re just basically saying anybody in the world, anybody on planet Earth, feeling called the planet Earth or maybe you already have and you don’t know what to do with it. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And what’s interesting is that there are, I don’t know how many people, but there are a lot of people on this Earth. And a lot of people are asking that exact question and they just need someone who’s going to say, we can help you. We can help you.Rich Birch — Interesting.Ted Coniaris — We want to help you do that. We want to coach you, train you, and then set you up with a cohort of others doing the same thing to help you do it in a sustainable fashion. It’s it’s very low investment. It’s very low control, but it’s super high results.Rich Birch — Yeah. Huh.Ted Coniaris — And so it’s it’s sort of a little mind shift because a lot of times we want to have everything controlled. We want to have everybody’s theology statement. We want to have all this stuff. We want to know it’s going to be successful. We want to da-da-da-da-da. It’s like we’re not doing any of that. We obviously do teach some theology, but what we do is just keep like, what are what are these sort of ecclesiological minimums?Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And how can we just center on those things… Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …and launch as many people as possible and see what the Lord does? And he’s been doing some remarkable things. And I think you know our world has a giant need. We need to see millions of people find their way back to God. And a lot of us have strategies where the wild success is if we had thousands of people come and find their way back to God over decades.Ted Coniaris — This this is a strategy that could reach millions. Like I think we legitimately can see a network of these and people down the chain will have no idea kind of where it came from and they don’t need to. But I legitimately think in 10 years time, we could easily reach a million people and have a a church of a million people, but not in the traditional sense.Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — But through this.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, I love that because, man that’s a great vision to cast. Because you can’t build enough or a big enough yellow box for all of even Chicagoland, right?Rich Birch — Like that’s just not going to, you know, you can’t.Ted Coniaris — Oh, yeah. No.Rich Birch — And and that is a, you know, it’s a just a resource intensive, you know, that’s been my life’s work. I've spent a lot of time on that. it’s not I’m not downing that, friends. Save your cards and letters. I still think that’s a piece of the puzzle. Ted Coniaris — I agree.Rich Birch — But how do we, is there a way for us to, work together to find solutions? How what how does the, I appreciate the, know, we’re not trying to be high control. We’re trying to, you know, we’re not you know we’re trying to really foster something that’s already in happening. We’re going to we’re going to get behind it, do what we can to support it. And we’re not going to try to over control. But I’m going to ask the control question. How do you, what is the kind of level of interaction that you’re, you’re finding is kind of the appropriate, it’s the, you know, not too little, not too much. Where have you found that’s like, hey, this, this is the kind of good sweet spot that that we have found so far with these, you know, 350, you know, microchurches.Ted Coniaris — Are you asking like, what’s the relational rhythm or…Rich Birch — Yeah. What is, yeah. What is the connection? What’s the relational rhythm between, or even connection between community and those 350? Like, are they, how are they, how do they relate to you and your team, your people, your volunteers, and then vice versa? What does that, you know, how does that, what’s that look like? What’s the connection there?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, it’s it’s purely coaching, training and ongoing support.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — And we also make it clear there’s no financial arrangement – them to us or us to them.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — And what we find is that just keeps the relationship very clean.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — We’re here to coach, support, train, launch, walk alongside.Ted Coniaris — It’s a relational currency. Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — And it’s an expertise currency and a material and resource are the currencies. And so that’s really what we’re doing so when it comes to you know what is the relational controls or how do you keep tabs or you know, whatever might be behind the question for us it’s more about that thriving coaching relationship… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …and that this is a journey and you know if somebody is unwilling or unable to connect, I mean, they just go do their own thing. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And we’re not going to try to stop them. Rich Birch — No. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — You know, we want to be dancing with the people who want to dance. We’re not you know spending our time or energy on that. And so it’s really that that coaching system and network. That’s the key in scaling that coaching system and network is how you reach a million people.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s great. That’s a huge vision. I love that. That’s that’s super inspiring. Rich Birch — Well, Ted, this has been a great check-in and lots of good stuff. Just want to encourage you in your leadership at Community. Appreciate what you’re doing there. Thanks for letting us kind of pull back the curtain a little bit and and get a sense in there. Any kind of final words you’d have for leaders that are listening in today? You know, we’ve covered a lot of ground, but anything you know you’d you’d want to kind of remind us just as we close off today’s conversation.Ted Coniaris — Yeah. And you know, the thing that’s just sort of striking me in the moment is just to encourage the pastors who are listening in particular to, to really remember that, that the strategy is your soul. And your own passion and hunger and thirst for the Lord and your integrity and walking that out, that is the key strategy. That is the most important thing. And you can’t do that alone.Ted Coniaris — You know, a lot of times talk about leadership being lonely. I kind of have a different view. I think loneliness is a choice. And I think you can choose not to be lonely. And so I know there are people who feel discouraged and that discouragement leads to isolation and that isolation feels like loneliness and it just becomes this downward spiral. There are different choices you can make to change the direction of that.Ted Coniaris — I know a lot of people are are struggling. The ministry is hard. It’s really hard. But I think that if you can really focus on your passion, your fire, tending your flame with the Lord, it will make the work of ministry lighter. It will make the successes and failures less impactful on you. And to find to find some people who can you can really be vulnerable with, who are sharing the same kind of load that you carry, that would be if I could just say one thing to a group of, you know, 5,000 pastors, that’s probably the thing I would just say right now.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Rich Birch — So good. Well, Ted, I appreciate you coming on today. Where do we want to send people if they want to track with you or with the church? Where do we want to send them online?Ted Coniaris — Communitychristian.org, church website, probably the best place. You can find us on socials and stuff like that. I don’t really do social stuff. It’s not my thing.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — But you could go to the church. You can find all that. So it’s Community Christian Church in the Chicago area, and you’ll find everything.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Ted. Appreciate being here today, sir.Ted Coniaris — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate you too.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Rebecca Maxwell, a licensed marriage and family therapist and founder of Jacksonville Counseling Services. With 15 years of prior church ministry experience and now leading a growing counseling practice, Rebecca brings a unique perspective that bridges biblical truth and clinical insight. Are you feeling unprepared when people come to you with deep emotional or mental health struggles? Wondering how to respond wisely without overstepping your role? In this conversation, Rebecca helps church leaders better respond to crises and care for people in more informed and effective ways. Why pastors often feel unprepared. // Rebecca reflects on her years in ministry and recognizes that many church leaders simply lack the training needed to identify and respond to mental health challenges. While pastors are often the first call when someone is in crisis, most have received minimal formal education in this area. As a result, well-intentioned leaders can miss important warning signs or unintentionally cause harm. Rebecca emphasizes that pastors don't need to become therapists—but they do need a basic framework for recognizing distress and knowing how to respond appropriately. Slow down before you try to solve. // One of the most common mistakes leaders make in crisis situations is moving too quickly to solutions. Offering Scripture or advice immediately—while well-meaning—can sometimes shut people down if they don't first feel heard. Rebecca encourages leaders to practice the “ministry of presence”: allowing individuals to tell their story, expressing empathy, and bearing witness to their pain. This approach helps regulate emotions and creates space for truth to be received later, when the person is more grounded and able to process it. You don't need all the answers—but you need a plan. // A critical takeaway for church leaders is the importance of knowing where to turn for help. Rebecca stresses that leaders don't need to be experts, but they must have a resource network in place. This includes vetted counselors, crisis resources, and trusted professionals they can contact when situations escalate. Without this preparation, leaders may feel stuck or overwhelmed in high-pressure moments. Addressing misconceptions about mental health. // Rebecca also addresses a harmful but common belief in some church contexts—that mental health struggles are simply a sin issue. While sin can play a role, this perspective oversimplifies the complexity of the human mind. She explains that just as the body can become ill, so can the mind. Ignoring this reality can lead to shame, misdiagnosis, and ineffective care. Instead, churches need a more integrated understanding of people as whole beings. Why the church must engage this conversation. // If churches remain silent on mental health, people will seek answers elsewhere—from social media, AI tools, or secular sources that may lack biblical grounding. Rebecca urges leaders to step into this space with confidence and compassion, offering both truth and practical support. The church has an opportunity to be a trusted starting point for healing—but only if it is equipped to respond. A practical next step for every church. // Rebecca strongly recommends that anyone working with people receive basic crisis training, such as QPR (Question, Persuade, Refer). This short training equips leaders to recognize warning signs, respond appropriately, and guide individuals toward help. It's a simple but powerful step that can literally save lives. To learn more about Rebecca Maxwell and her book, Jesus and Your Mental Health: Linking God’s Word and Modern Science to Find Peace about Mental Health, visit JesusAndYourMentalHealth.com and download a sample here. Explore additional resources at jacksonvillecounseling.net. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in today. You’re gonna be rewarded for that. I know that the conversation we’re having today, that this week, probably four or five times, you’ve thought about issues adjacent to this, and it’s gonna be super helpful. We are leveraging an expert. We’re gonna take advantage of this person to really help you this week and to help you solve some real problems. Rich Birch — Excited to have Rebecca Maxwell with us. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She started Jacksonville Counseling Services in 2015 to serve her Florida community with counseling services that integrate best practices with a biblical foundation.Rich Birch — The cool thing about Rebecca, well, there’s lots of cool things about her, but one of the cool things about her is prior to her voyage into marriage and family therapy, she spent 15, not 50 years in…Rebecca Maxwell — I look amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. …in church ministry with children, adolescents, and family. So it’s just a great background, dual background for us to kind of tap into today. Rebecca, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, glad to be here, Rich.Rich Birch — Apologize for the 50 year. That’s…Rebecca Maxwell — Hey, I mean, I look good for doing this for 50 years.Rich Birch — Yeah exactly. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of a background? Tell us, fill out that, you know, bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about yourself.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, so I’m married to a pastor, but I want to just be clear that I was in ministry first.Rich Birch — Yes. Good. Good.Rebecca Maxwell — I fell I fell into ministry ah after getting a degree in management from Georgia Tech… Rich Birch — Okay. Rebecca Maxwell — …and the Lord just kind of opened some doors, and I had to figure out what that was going to look like. Started in ministry to teenagers, youth. And did that faithfully for many years and also did a little bit of adult discipleship and kids ministry along the way, kind of got my training as I went along. Rebecca Maxwell — And there was a there was a point where God was just really beginning to lay the foundation for a different direction, a new call. And I spent a couple semesters in seminary trying to figure that out and ah didn’t think that was where the Lord was taking me to finish that training. And a friend, honestly, this was the best question I’ve ever been asked. She asked me, Rebecca, what do you love about youth ministry? What’s the favorite what’s your favorite part of your job?Rebecca Maxwell — And I said, you know, I love talking to teenagers and their parents about life stuff. And she said, well, I think you’d make a great counselor. And so that was the that was the the great question that got me in the direction of seeking more training in counseling. And I did marriage and family therapy because I was working with family so much… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …and really believing that the health of the family was so important to the health of the kids. And the kids were really like my driving force in what I was doing. Rich Birch — So cool. Rebecca Maxwell — So that it took me in that direction and along the way got to do some cool things in ministry and now working alongside churches in Christian, biblically based, also clinically informed counseling.Rebecca Maxwell — And so I have a practice in Jacksonville of there there’s about 18 of us now. And along the way, God gave me an experience that allowed me to to really know that I needed to be distinctively Christian and biblically based in my practice, that that was going to be important for my community. And so that’s that’s what we do. We try to bridge the best of psychological science with what the Bible says…Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Rebecca Maxwell — …and serve our community.Rich Birch — Well, friends, you can see why I’m excited to have Rebecca on the on the call today, because I think, well, there’s a lot there, but there’s you know this idea of of being clinically informed and biblically based. I think you have a lot to help us think through these issues you know as pastors, as leaders. You know We’re wrestling with these kinds of questions all the time.Rebecca Maxwell — Of course. Rich Birch — We’re thinking about all of these things, referring people, and all this this comes up all the time. So you spent 15 years in church ministry before going down this road of being a licensed therapist. What did you see during those years as you reflect back on that time that made you realize, hey, maybe maybe church leaders need more help in this space? I’m declaring that I think we do. So, you know, I’m putting those words in your mouth. So, you know, don’t you know don’t be offended, listeners. That’s me saying that. But what do you what do you think?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, I think that I didn’t know what I was seeing when I was in ministry with some students and their families. I just knew that there was distress… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …and I didn’t know why in some cases. And not everything was a mental health issue, but I certainly missed a lot of those. I didn’t know how to meet kids and families who were in like mental crisis moments.Rebecca Maxwell — So, you know, my husband has been all the way through seminary. And so I know that he took one class in pastoral counseling that I helped him with.Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — And so this is a big issue in our community. And I don’t think that church leaders are generally well-equipped, like broadly. Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — I know there are there are more and more church leaders who are doing a deeper dive into understanding mental health and mental illness. But I would say by and large, the training isn’t there. And the problem with that is that people, parishioners, are going to go to their church leaders first when they’re struggling because they’re trusted. They’re a trusted source of on life. And so if our folks aren’t trained well, they can unintentionally cause harm. And I want to emphasize unintentionally… Rich Birch — Right, right. Rebecca Maxwell — …because nobody wants to miss something or cause harm. And, you know, they may accidentally just miss things. And, you know, suicide continues to be on the rise. And we don’t want to miss the pleas, the cries of a desperate person. And we also don’t want to minimize those. Rebecca Maxwell — We don’t want to give, you know, Christian euphemisms that don’t really address and see what’s going on deeper. Because not people don’t always show you what’s going on deeper right in the beginning. So a little bit of training goes a long way. And I know having been there and even now today, like we just don’t have enough, enough knowledge.Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — And church leaders are never going to be master’s level therapists. That’s not I’m asking for.Rich Birch — No. Right. Rebecca Maxwell — But I think we can have a better partnership to help each other.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s good. Well, let’s, let’s start. I want to come back to the the suicide question in a minute. Rebecca Maxwell — Okay.Rich Birch — So I want to put a a bookmark in that and come back to that. Cause there’s specifically, I want, I got a couple of questions around that, that I’d love to get your thoughts on. But let’s go back to that idea of pastors getting the first call. Many of us have been in on that, right? We get the, you know, a family’s in crisis mode. Something’s falling apart. I can’t, I can’t deal with this situation.Rich Birch — In fact, actually, I’ve used this yeah as like an example when training campus pastors where I’m like, there’s, you know, when someone calls you with a crisis call like that, what you say in the first 30 seconds matters. Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like actually that, you know, even on the phone, you know, hey, you know, so what, what happens, talk to us from your perspective, what, what usually happens in that conversation or what, where, where could that go sideways? How do we, how do we end up maybe intentionally we’re trying, unintentionally we’re trying to help, but we, things just don’t go right because we do something dumb, you know, in the, in the first little bit.Rebecca Maxwell — Well, think all of us are problem solvers. And so we want to give someone a solution to the thing that they’re experiencing. Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — And so that’s where we can like well-intentioned, we can kind of drop people. Because if we too quickly try to just point them to a scripture or give them a truth, which is true, we can tell them some true things about who God is and, and where he’s working and those sorts of things. And again, it’s true. But sometimes in that moment, it’s not helpful. Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — Sometimes a person needs to get out a little bit more of what they’re experiencing and just have someone to bear witness to their pain, right? And we see this in the scripture. Jesus did this over and over where he he he spent that time with someone to kind of bear witness to their pain before he sent them in a different direction.Rebecca Maxwell — And obviously we need both of those. I don’t want people just swimming around in the pain forever either. That’s not helpful. But I do think we move too quickly sometimes when we get that first call. You know, we just want to solve that thing. Rich Birch — Yep.Rebecca Maxwell — And sometimes we just need to kind of slow down and the and give the ministry of presence.Rich Birch — What’s a good way, maybe maybe put a bit more kind of practical bones on that. I love that idea of the ministry of presence. Hey, we’re just going to, my job right now is just to be here with you. Talk us through what that looks like.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, I think it’s allowing someone to get their story out. And sometimes that’s not convenient because sometimes it’s long, you know.Rich Birch — Yep.Rebecca Maxwell — So to get their story out to and to be listening for the strengths and the positives that the person might be saying but isn’t quite aware of.Rebecca Maxwell — And actually…Rebecca Maxwell — you know, this, this happened yesterday to us. Rich Birch — Okay.Rebecca Maxwell — And so maybe like a story will help.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s great.Rebecca Maxwell — Someone called in to our main office line and got one of actually my personal assistant, didn’t get the clinical admin, but got my personal assistant. And asked the question, if I kill myself, will I go to hell? Rich Birch — Wow.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. And my personal assistant knew enough to reach out to our team right away. And so I was able to help kind of walk her through what to do. And some of the things that I told her were just keep this person talking, right? Ask about their life, all aspects of what’s going on. Let them get their story out. Because what happens when we put words to our experience and someone bears witness to that is the emotions don’t have such a grip on us. They kind of relax a little bit.Rebecca Maxwell — And my assistant told me that as she was able to kind of just continue to keep this this woman talking, that she could just, over the phone line, experience kind of that release, that she got a little bit of relief, not ultimate relief…Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — …but a little bit of relief just in telling her story. And my personal assistant, I was able to walk her through listening for the strengths, listening for the positive things, that then you can come back around to. Not minimizing or negating the struggle, but bringing more balance to the truth. Because because then when they when they calm down and they’re more in their logical brain then you’re able to deliver truth in a way that they can grab onto. Rich Birch — That’s good. Right. Rebecca Maxwell — But when they’re heightened and they’re in such distress trying to kind of speak truth in that moment just kind of bounces off of them. Does that make sense?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, there’s that moment of like it’s like that fight or flight thing that’s going on in our brain, right? Rebecca Maxwell — Yes. Rich Birch — Where we’re just like, I just want out of this situation… Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. Rich Birch — …whatever’s happening to me… Rebecca Maxwell — Yes. Rich Birch — …and and none of us make, you know, wise decisions in those moments.Rebecca Maxwell — No.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s amazing. How did your, well, first of all, like, I think all of our churches have got a call like that, maybe not exactly that one, but you get that call that’s like, whoa, this is, this is heavy. And particularly, yeah, so so how how did your, how did your assistant know what to do in that moment? How did you, like, that doesn’t, is that under other duties as assigned? How does, how did you, how are they prepared for that?Rebecca Maxwell — Well, I think one, she doesn’t have the clinical experience, but she is a believer and she’s walking with the Lord and she has the ultimate power source within her. So she knew to immediately start kind of praying in her spirit as she was talking.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right.Rebecca Maxwell — And then she knew where to go. She knew who to call on.Rebecca Maxwell — And I think that that’s another important concept for church leaders is: Who are you going to call on in a crisis?Rich Birch — Yep.Rebecca Maxwell — When you are sitting with someone who is actively considering ending their life, or they’re just in a really, maybe they’re not at that point, but there’s they’re dealing with something else.Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — Who are you going to call on? You don’t, I tell church leaders, you don’t have to have all the answers. You don’t have to know exactly what to do and where to where to point people, but you have to know where to go to resource yourself. Rich Birch — Yep.Rebecca Maxwell — And that’s what my personal assistant knew. Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — She knew how to resource herself, how to get some help. And so I was able to, you know, she’s on the phone and I'm texting her questions and things like that… Rich Birch — Right. Okay. Rebecca Maxwell — …so she knew where to go. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. You know, a best practice i’ve we’ve seen in many churches, ah but I’m surprised, I still am surprised that when I bumped into churches and they don’t have this, is like a resource list of like, here are some trusted counselors, some trusted people to talk about. Talk to us about that from your side. You’ve seen both sides of that equation. How do we develop a list like that? How do we how do we make that available? How do we how do we do that in a way that is most helpful for for our team, for maybe our staff, or for people who are just at our church.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, it takes a little bit of time, but there are resources in your community. You just have to find them, usually.Rich Birch — Right. Yep.Rebecca Maxwell — And there are some purely online resources as well. I think the first step is probably gaining some understanding of the different types of clinicians who are out there… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …and and what they’re best suited for, what issues they’re best suited for.Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — You may have someone in your congregation who is a counselor. And so that might be a good first step is to get them on board to help you create a vetted list to what should I be asking when I want to partner with someone?Rebecca Maxwell — Because it’s one thing to say, I’m a Christian and a counselor. It’s another thing to say, I am counseling from a biblical framework. I’m counseling from a biblical worldview. And so you know, understanding how to make that distinction, you know, someone in, in your congregation may, may have the ability to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — But just how to ask the right questions so that you can begin to build a resource list of, like I said, we are biblical worldview clinically, like informed. And so you, you want to have some people like that… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …because we are operating under the license of our state. We have a code of ethics that we’re following. We have oversight. And I think that’s really important. You also have biblical and pastoral counselors that are some are very, very well trained. But you need to understand like what that lane is… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …and what is a more clinically informed lane. And so, and a lot of people don’t have that understanding and rightfully so. Right? There’s so many different practitioners and we don’t, we don’t really know who has kind of what skills and what’s appropriate in their lane.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. you got to do a little bit of research around even the language that’s used, you know, the difference between like a life coach and a counselor… Rebecca Maxwell — Right. Rich Birch — …and a therapist. Rebecca Maxwell — Right. Rich Birch — And, you know, like, and, you know, be a little bit suspicious of people if they’re like, hey, I want to get on that list. And are there any from your—give us the inside scoop—are there any red flags that you would have? Let’s say I’m reaching out, I’m talking to a number of therapists in my community and, if somebody says something or is there something that, you know, I want to be wary of, of, ohh I’m not sure we necessarily want to point people in their direction?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, I think this is a more subtle one. Rich Birch — Yep. Rebecca Maxwell — But I think when someone says I’m a Christian, but you know, I really don’t bring that into my practice at all. Rich Birch — You want to ask some follow-ups?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, let’s ask some follow’s ah some follow ups. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Rebecca Maxwell — Because in general, and I’ll kind of expound on this particular one… Rich Birch — Yep. Rebecca Maxwell — …regardless of what the clinician’s faith background is, we are trained to um to bring up a person’s spiritual part of self as part of holistic practice.Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — Unfortunately, a lot of clinicians are just leaving that part out completely. Rich Birch — Okay. Yep. Rebecca Maxwell — Because of politics and taboos and, you know, and we don’t want to get in trouble sometimes with our our licensing boards, right? Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — But we are all trained to see a person holistically. And we would, in in my field, we would say bio, psycho, social, spiritual—biological, psychological, social/relationships, and spiritual. But we’ve we’ve kind of left out the spiritual. And so, we should all, no matter whether you’re a Christian or not, we should all be asking and inquiring about a patient’s spiritual life. Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — And that’s a really easy open door. So if someone says, you know, I’m such and such, but I don’t…you know, I really don’t bring that up and in counseling at all. I understand that they’re afraid to, and there’s, I understand.Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell —But you really want a clinician who’s not afraid to inquire more generally about a person’s spiritual life.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Rebecca Maxwell — And I think that’s a big one.Rich Birch — Yeah. And the combo of doing that in a licensed environment, you know, so you’re getting kind of the best of both worlds there really makes a lot of sense. Like, Hey, were, you know, I understand why, you know, that makes, that makes sense. That’s a good, that’s a good line there. Rich Birch — So kind of a different, it’s related, but different train of thought. I know there are churches out there that have like a, a negative view on on like mental health… Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. Rich Birch — …on mental illness, on counseling in general. They they it gets really black and white. And they’re it’s like, like I have a family, yeah, I have a family member who their pastor told them, you know, it’s just totally a sin issue and like andRebecca Maxwell — Yes.Rich Birch — They had been struggling with issues for a long time. And, you know, that was a huge weight on their on their life… Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. Rich Birch — …that they carried, you know, for a well into their kind of 80s, late into life. And talk to us, unpack that for us. Like I think that’s just a dangerous approach, but help us and understand that mindset. Why is that dangerous? What’s behind that instinct?Rebecca Maxwell — I think that I think the instinct is probably good that the Bible gives us everything we need for life and godliness.Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — And I think sometimes it’s just potentially a misinterpretation of just a holistic understanding heart, soul, mind, and strength of a person. That the mind…because in Deuteronomy, it, it, it doesn’t say heart, soul, mind, and strength that comes in Jesus words in, Mark. And I think also Luke, But in Deuteronomy, it’s heart, soul, strength. And so mind is not broken out in that original text.Rebecca Maxwell — And then I believe that it is broken out and listed in the New Testament because I really think Jesus wanted to highlight that. And we see, I mean, the mind is talked about about 180 times in the New Testament. And so it’s a really important aspect of us.Rebecca Maxwell — And so think that unintentionally the mind is not considered distinctly and is maybe not seen as an object of brokenness and illness in the same way, right? Like we see, obviously we see if the pancreas doesn’t work properly, we have diabetes, right?Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — Or we get cancer and obviously that’s not our fault. But the mind is the thing we have the most control over. And so think people think that that’s just a sin issue. You just need to stop or do something differently. And we don’t have the full understanding, especially because science is still understanding the interplay between the mind and the physical brain… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …and how they interact with each other. And so I just don’t think a lot of people have kind of caught up with understanding that, you know, that is a distinct part of self that can be broken, just like the body can be broken.Rich Birch — Right. Just like having a broken leg or whatever. Rebecca Maxwell — Right.Rich Birch — Yeah, and that I think that’s a great that is a great transition to, you’ve actually written a book on this that I’d love to unpack a little bit. You use this you know whole self integration—heart, soul, mind, and strength. It’s kind of at the core of what you’re talking about. Why don’t you walk us through that framework a little bit more? The book we’re talking about is “Jesus and Your Mental Health: Linking God’s Word and Modern Science to Find Peace about Mental Health”.Rich Birch — I would love people to pick up copies of this. We’ll get to that in a bit, but kind of unpack how that those four inform the framework of the conversation in this book.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, so it’s really like setting our thinking on holistic health and putting mental health right inside the framework of whole self. So we do things to, we do things to help our physical health and our spiritual health and our relational health. And so we probably ought to be thinking about the health of our mind. You know, again, it’s mentioned 180 times plus in the New Testament.Rich Birch — Wow.Rebecca Maxwell — So it must be pretty important, this renewing of our mind and how we go about that. And this idea that we’re integrated. So our mind impacts our body, impacts our soul, and our soul impacts our body, impacts our mind, impacts our relationships. Like it’s all integrated. Rich Birch — Right.Rebecca Maxwell — And we can utilize some of the healthy habits of the other three parts to help our mind. And we can utilize this thing we have control over our mind to impact the other parts of self. And we know this just anecdotally in our own lives, right? Like very simple things like when my dad taught me to throw a softball, he had me point at the target and direct my body… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …and my mind and my eyes in that direction. And then the ball went there. Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — Well, we can use that concept, you know, in all of mental health, you know, where we direct our mind, the rest of us follows.Rebecca Maxwell — And so really just understanding that integration and how we can use it for the common good and not, not separating this mental health and continuing to stigmatize it as, you know, sin just a sin problem. I think that’s where we go wrong, is that if you have and a malady of the mind, it’s really a sin problem. Sometimes it is. Rich Birch — Right, right. Rebecca Maxwell — But it’s a little more complicated than that as well.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, it it seems like there’s a false dichotomy in a lot of leaders’ minds around, um well, it’s exactly were talking about, Bible and psychology, Bible and therapy. Like there’s there’s like those two things can’t interact with each other. Which which side of that equation do you experience more? Like, is it more from like church leaders that are skeptical or is it more from maybe leaders who are from outside the church who you’ve mentioned this already, who don’t pursue kind of the spiritual conversation? Which of those do you see? Cause I can see it from both sides where I’m like, oh, I could see on both sides of that conversation.Rebecca Maxwell — Absolutely.Rich Birch — People are like, and then we’re not meeting in the middle. And that’s why it’s great that you exist and why your organization exists. So, uh, talk to us about where do you see the pressure more from?Rebecca Maxwell — I really see it on both sides, honestly… Rich Birch — Right, right. Rebecca Maxwell — …just kind of like you’re describing, you know. Secular psychology really wants to leave out, you know, spirituality and um any, any, really any firm truth, you know, absolute truth.Rich Birch — Right, right.Rebecca Maxwell — And then the church, because of that, a lot of times just in general, we’ll be like, well, we got to throw all of that away because it’s not useful at all.Rich Birch — Right, overreact.Rebecca Maxwell — And I just, I don’t, I don’t think that’s helpful. We, we utilize science, scientific concepts in our everyday life. And so we, you know, we need to find the the good and the truth in what, you know, research based psychological science is showing us because there is some common good there, just like there is in, you know, other discover scientific discoveries.Rich Birch — Well, I I think this is a great resource. I’m so glad you’ve put this book together. And I’d love to talk about how you could see it being used. I know for me, and we’ll link in the show notes actually to a sample of the book. So you can, you don’t even have to buy anything. Just look at the sample to start before you buy it. I so I thought this could be a great resource for us as like a staff team to read through as kind of like a, hey, here’s like a primer on some of these issues for us to be thinking about, even just to kind of frame the conversation to be thinking about these things.Rich Birch — Who are you picturing as you put this together? What’s what’s your kind of vision for how you hope this resource will be used by churches?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. When I wrote the book, I was picturing someone kind of like me and my friends who are, you know, love the Lord, love their families, are trying to help their families live in health in all aspects of their life. And as I was writing it, what I realized with also some prompting of my pastor was that this could be a really great resource for equipping churches.Rebecca Maxwell — The very people that I wrote it for, the mamas, you know, in that are serving in the church and very involved, but also church staff and volunteer leaders, because what I’m trying to give people is really a grounding for how to think about mental health and mental illness from a suffering, you know putting it in like a suffering standpoint. And then equipping them with a ton of scripture to back up the understanding of the mind and the brain and how to have a healthy mind, what happens when the mind isn’t healthy and then some common both some common roots of mental illness, including trauma and family of origin issues, and then some, some really common problems in the area of mental health, anxiety, depression, grief, and loss, so that people can be equipped with a resource that they can hand to someone, or they can say, Hey, read chapter seven on anxiety… Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — …you know, and someone is going to get a biblical understanding of where anxiety shows up in the scripture. How Jesus shows up in that? What are some practical ways that psychological science gives us to deal with that? What does the Bible say about how to deal with that? And let’s kind of put all of these things together.Rebecca Maxwell — So they’re really going have both just under an understanding of grounding in mental health and also some practical ways to address those issues. And then really ending with like, hey, how do you know when you need more help than what this book can give you?Rich Birch — That’s good.Rebecca Maxwell — And how do you find the right person to help you?Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. Yeah, there’s, you know, just even as I’m flipping through looking at the chapters, like just so much helpful stuff in here, identity and self-esteem. Who does Jesus say I am? Attachment. How did my childhood impact my relationship? Trauma. That’s a word we hear all the time. Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah.Rich Birch — Where is Jesus when that happened? And I think there’s just, this is gonna be so helpful for so many leaders to check out and and to and to use as a resource.Rich Birch — I think this is the kind of book, like you said, I could picture, hey, I got five copies of this and I’m gonna end up in a conversation where it’s maybe not somebody that’s in like an immediate crisis right now, but they maybe their kid is wrestling with these issues. And on top of, yes, I’ll meet with them, I’ll pray with them. And yes, here’s the list of counselors, but like, here’s a book to read as well to help you think through this. I think this could be incredibly helpful for people.Rebecca Maxwell — I hope so. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, where where do where can people get, if they want to get copies of this book, where do we want to send them to pick up copies of this?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, anywhere books are sold online. So Amazon and Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Target, places like that. And folks can reach out to me about getting like bulk copies. Rich Birch — Oh, great.Rebecca Maxwell — They may already have places they get bulk books, but they can reach out to me to get that. I have some other resources like discussion guides that I am happy to give if people reach out to me – discussion guides and other just resources for folks that maybe, I’ve had a bunch of people reach out because they want to kind of do a book study with their disciple group or things like that.Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell — So, you know, my goal really is to equip the church. I want the church to be the the trusted source where people can come to and begin a healing journey. And so I think this will help equip people in the church, both, you know, paid staff and lay leaders to to really help people.Rich Birch — If people want to reach out to you, where where do we want to, where do we do that? Where do we want them to do that to? To reach out to you?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, the best is probably my website, JesusAndYourMentalHealth.com.Rich Birch — Love it. That’s great. I want to talk about that trusted source idea that you just referenced there. This conversation is a conversation that’s happening in the broader culture. It’s just happening, right? Rebecca Maxwell — Yes. Rich Birch — Like it’s, you you know, you open up, I read The Economist all the time. Every week in The Economist, there’s some sort of article that is, if not directly talking about this, it’s connected to it. What happens when the church in general just stays silent on the mental health issues? What happens if we if we don’t engage this? Kind of inspire us a little bit.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, well, there’s a lot of noise. And so people are going to go to TikTok and Instagram and even ChatGPT…Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Rebecca Maxwell — …to get there their information. And they’re not always going to get biblically informed information. Rich Birch — Right. Rebecca Maxwell —And that’s why it’s so important that we’re equipped because people are coming to churches more and more for practical guidance on the stuff that they’re actually going through. Rich Birch — Yep.Rebecca Maxwell — And the Bible is not silent on the practical stuff. And so we want to be well-equipped to go to the scripture with them and to point them in the right direction and to give them some kind of guardrails and guidance for finding help. Otherwise, it’s like you’re kind of floating out in this sea of information. I wouldn’t even say knowledge or wisdom, but information.Rich Birch — Yes.Rebecca Maxwell — And you don’t really know where to anchor.Rich Birch — Bullet points. Checklist. Yes. Yes. Five steps to.Rebecca Maxwell — Right.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s yeah, that’s ah yeah, that’s so good. It’s interesting on the AI thing. There’s but bunch of studies that have shown that’s really the primary use how people are using ChatGPT, particularly. They’re using it as like a counselor.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah.Rich Birch — And um I I mean, there’s like that’s dangerous. So it’s incredible. Well, this has been a great conversation. Any kind of final words you’d say as we wrap up today’s discussion?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. You know, kind of, I think the thing I want to leave people with is a little bit of where we started in the beginning, which is managing crisis. Something that’s really, I think, important for anybody working with people is to get trained in how to prevent suicide. And there is a training called QPR instead of CPR. Rich Birch — Yeah, let tell us about this. Yeah, yeah, tell us about this. Yep.Rebecca Maxwell — It’s QPR question, persuade, respond. And it’s like an hour long, maybe 90 minute online training or anyone that works with people can be trained in how to basically do CPR for people that are having a mental health crisis that could literally save lives. And the skills that are taught in that are transferable to people that aren’t in crisis. Rebecca Maxwell — And so that’s the thing I mostly want to leave. Like there’s a lot of information to be found. And obviously I would love people to get my book, but I really want everyone that works with people to be trained in how to respond to people who are having a mental health crisis, how to know what to say, how to persuade them to get help. I think that, you know, we could, we’re, we could really save lives there.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s, how do we go about finding QPR training? Like if we, I think this is, again, what a great takeaway. You’ve landed this great takeaway right here at the end, even for our staff teams. Let’s get that on our schedule. Rebecca Maxwell — Totally.Rich Birch — Like I I think about the people that are answering the phone at the church. I’m like, I was thinking about that earlier when you were talking about your assistant. I'm like, man, I want to make sure that they get the kind of training because, you know, I don’t want to fumble that ball. So where, where do we, where would people find training this QPR training?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. You can find them online. I think it’s qpr.org, but I’m kind of looking it up as we speak because I’m like, dang it, I should have had that reference.Rich Birch — Right. Yep. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. ahRebecca Maxwell — QPR.Rich Birch — No, no, that’s okay.Rebecca Maxwell — It’s QPR. qprinstitute.com Rich Birch — Perfect. QPR Institute.com. Rebecca Maxwell — qprinstitute.com Rich Birch — Great. Perfect. That’s, that’s fantastic. Well, Rebecca, I really appreciate you being on today and helping us serving us. I want to make sure folks, again, the name of that book is “Jesus and Your Mental Health: Linking God’s Word and Modern Science to Find Peace about Mental Health”. Grab that at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. We’ll put links in the show notes to that. We’ll put links in the show notes to your website, anywhere else we want to send them online so they can track with you or with the book?Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, our our practice website is jacksonvillecounseling.net. Rich Birch — Perfect.Rebecca Maxwell — So we only really can practice in Florida, Texas, Colorado. That’s where we have.Rich Birch — Yes.Rebecca Maxwell — But we do have a blog, a mental health blog on there. I have a podcast called Jesus and Your Mental Health. So those are some other resources just, you know, to get more information about mental health concepts. You know, we all love a good podcast and bite-sized learning on something. Rich Birch — Yes.Rebecca Maxwell — So those are a couple couple couple extra things for folks.Rich Birch — Well, Rebecca, I appreciate you being here today. Thanks so much for being on the show.Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. Thanks, Rich.

Early in my time as an Executive Pastor, we were about halfway through what felt like a defining campaign for our church. And I was frustrated. Every time we met with our campaign consultant, they showed up with a binder (this was back in the 1900s) and we would turn pages to whatever was next. Cookie-cutter strategy. No real interest in who we were or what God was doing in our community. We fired them halfway through. Cost us real money and time. A decade or so later, I was part of another campaign. Completely different experience. That consultant is still a friend today. We started as workmates and became something more because we drew swords together through the whole thing. Reflecting on those two experiences over the years, across three fast-growing churches (two of which grew from under 1,000 to 4,000 or 5,000 people) and through multiple campaigns of various sizes, one thing has become clear: what makes the difference isn’t the firm you hire. It’s what you and I bring to the table. That first campaign? I was looking to the consultant for too much. I hadn’t thought carefully enough about what we needed to bring. These firms are coaches. Coaches can only do so much when the athletes aren’t doing the reps. Here are 10 things your church must bring to the table in your next capital campaign, whether you call it a generosity initiative, a spiritual growth season, or a building program. 1. Clarity of Vision Before You Talk About Money Research consistently confirms what experienced fundraisers already know: people give to impact, not to organizational need. Penelope Burk’s Cygnus Applied Research donor surveys, conducted annually with up to 25,000 active U.S. donors, found that 67% of donors increasingly favor organizations that provide measurable results, and roughly half report they’re not giving at their full potential simply because they lack information about where the impact actually lands. [ref] Yale’s Center for Customer Insights confirmed in 2024 that aspirational, vision-driven framing significantly outperforms need-based asks in generating donor response. [ref] For churches, the translation is practical: “We need a new roof” raises less money than “We’re building a home for the next generation of faith in our city.” The question worth sitting with is whether the average person in your congregation can explain your vision in a single sentence, and whether that vision is genuinely bigger than the campaign itself. If your church is fuzzy on what God is uniquely calling you toward, you are not ready. The campaign is just the next step out of a clear vision. Without that clarity established first, the campaign will underperform regardless of the firm you bring in. 2. Leadership Alignment at the Top When campaigns underperform, the culprit is almost never the economy, the giving culture of your congregation, or the consultant. In my experience, it’s misalignment at the senior leadership level, and the research on this is hard to argue with. Prosci’s Best Practices in Change Management research, now in its 12th edition and spanning 25 years across more than 10,800 professionals globally, has found that active and visible executive sponsorship is the single #1 contributor to initiative success in every benchmarking study since 1998. Campaigns with effective senior sponsors succeed 79% of the time; those without that alignment drop to 27%. [ref] McKinsey’s global survey data found that transformations are 12.4 times more likely to succeed when senior leaders communicate continually, and 47% of executives who had been through a major transformation wished they had spent more time aligning their top team before the launch. [ref] Your campaign consultant cannot create unity. That work belongs to you. Senior leadership team members and elders who are privately skeptical before the campaign goes public will erode trust once the pressure arrives, and the pressure always arrives. Getting that alignment sorted before you move is one of the most important things you can do, and it’s entirely on your shoulders. 3. A Willingness to Actually Do the Work Here’s something worth saying plainly: most capital campaign firms follow a nearly identical strategy. There’s a leadership phase, a core donor phase, a volunteer phase, a public phase, a pledge weekend, and follow-up. You could ask an AI to outline any firm’s likely approach and have a reasonable answer in about 10 minutes. The strategy isn’t what separates campaigns that transform churches from campaigns that disappoint them. Execution is. McKinsey’s global transformation data tells a similar story: only 26% of major organizational transformations actually succeed. [ref] Think about it like my Peloton. The instructor can give me a plan, show me the gauges, compare my output to other riders, and tell me exactly what to do. She cannot make me get on the bike and push hard. That part is entirely on me. A campaign running in parallel with normal ministry operations is essentially asking your team to do two full-time jobs simultaneously. Budget your team’s capacity honestly before you start, and make structural space for your people to actually execute the work the campaign requires. 4. A Culture of Repetition Behavioral science is consistent on this: people need to hear a message many times before it moves them to action. The old “rule of 7” from marketing turns out to be folklore with no traceable original source, and research suggests the real threshold is higher. Schmidt and Eisend’s 2015 meta-analysis in the Journal of Advertising found that peak attitude change happens at around 10 exposures. [ref] In a world of increasing distraction, that number is almost certainly climbing. At one church I was part of, I counted how many times the lead pastor repeated the core campaign message before the first public Sunday. The answer was 23. That’s not overkill. That’s how transformation actually works. Leaders get tired of the message long before the congregation does. Your congregation is always further behind than you think they are. The leaders who succeed in this season are the ones who lock in their messaging early and walk it out consistently, without flinching when it starts to feel repetitive to them personally. 5. Strong Engagement with Key Donors Before the Campaign Launches I don’t know your church, but I can predict with reasonable confidence that close to 50% of your church’s donations come from roughly 10% of your people. The AFP Fundraising Effectiveness Project, covering 12,000+ nonprofits and 6.7 million donors, found that just 3.1% of donors contributed 77.7% of all fundraising dollars in 2024. [ref] Industry benchmarks suggest 80 to 90% of a campaign goal comes from the top 10 to 20 gifts. The biggest checks come from the smallest rooms. If you have done little or no relational investment with your top-tier donors before you start thinking about a campaign, you are already behind. Early donor conversations are not about pressure; they are about invitation. These are your most generous people. Giving them the privilege of early connection, of being brought into what God is doing before the rest of the congregation hears about it, is not a fundraising tactic. It’s honoring a relationship. Start building that now, well before you need anything from them. 6. A Real Follow-Up Plan Here is something that can quietly sink a campaign before it ever goes public: pledges that never get followed up on. Well-managed capital campaigns actually have strong fulfillment rates. The follow-up process is what converts a signed pledge card into a fulfilled gift over time. Before you go public, map out your entire follow-up phase: regular donor communications, pledge reminders, giving statements, and a clear plan for when someone falls behind. One practical contract note worth flagging: make sure your agreement with your campaign consultant keeps them engaged through the follow-up phase, not just through Pledge Sunday. Campaigns that struggle with fulfillment almost always lose their way in exactly this stretch. 7. Financial and Operational Readiness Plan to spend somewhere in the range of 3 to 5% of your total campaign goal on the campaign itself, covering communications, events, materials, and video production. Most churches underbudget this category significantly. Running a campaign well requires real financial investment. The operational issue that almost took us down was different, though: our giving infrastructure wasn’t ready for a surge. In one campaign I was leading, I had a conversation with our finance team the morning of our public launch. “Are we ready?” I asked. “Yeah, yeah, we’re ready,” they said. I think part of them didn’t genuinely believe we’d see what we were hoping for. We were targeting over a million dollars in a single day. We hit it. And then our payment processor shut us down because we hadn’t prepared for a transaction volume that size. The friction in your systems is costing you generosity that’s already there, from people who were ready to give. Test your systems with your processor before launch day, and know your transaction limits before you run into them at the worst possible moment. 8. Emotional and Spiritual Resilience Leaders who have been through campaigns almost universally surface the same surprise: the internal relational strain was harder than they expected. When resources get focused on specific ministry areas, other leaders can feel overlooked or left out. Add the extra workload, the high stakes, and the spiritual opposition that tends to accompany anything of real Kingdom significance, and you have a reliable recipe for team fracture if you’re not paying attention. A campaign doesn’t create those pressures; it amplifies whatever is already present. Building in regular rhythms of prayer, celebration, and genuine rest throughout the entire season matters more than most leaders plan for. A friend of mine who recently finished a significant campaign took a real vacation between the core donor phase and the public phase. He went to Mexico and unplugged completely. Looking back, he said he doesn’t think he could have led the public phase well without it. That kind of intentional recovery isn’t optional; it’s what makes the second half of the campaign possible. 9. A Plan for the Dip Moments Many churches experience a drop in weekend attendance during a campaign season, and too many leaders take it personally or treat it as a sign that the campaign is going sideways. It’s predictable. Research on organizational transitions documents a well-established pattern: performance and engagement typically dip during major change before recovering and eventually surpassing prior levels. Researchers call this the Productivity J-Curve. [ref] When you’re in a big campaign, some people feel the weight of a vision Sunday and take a step back for a few weeks. Most of them come back. Some won’t. Rather than spiraling when the dip arrives, focus your energy on what comes after: a strong re-engagement plan for the weeks following your public ask. Also worth planning for financially: total operational giving can dip slightly during a campaign season, even in a one-fund model. Some operational giving temporarily redirects. It doesn’t always happen, but building a budget that accounts for it protects you from making reactive decisions mid-campaign based on a short-term fluctuation that was always predictable. 10. Full Ownership of the Outcome No consultant, regardless of how experienced or gifted, can deliver this for you. The churches that see campaigns change their trajectory are the ones whose leaders own the outcome completely. They don’t engage a firm and hand off the responsibility. They understand the consultant’s role clearly: someone who comes alongside to coach them through a process they are running themselves. Research on coaching outcomes gives this some weight. Olivero, Bane, and Kopelman found that training alone increased productivity by 22.4%, but training combined with coaching increased it by 88%, nearly four times the gain. [ref] The difference between those two numbers comes down to ownership and active application. Coaching works because the person being coached has to do the work themselves. You are not paying someone to run your campaign. You are paying someone to coach you while you run it. Feel that difference before you sign anything. The campaigns I’ve seen genuinely transform churches had one thing in common: the senior leader and the Executive Pastor were fully in. They treated the outcome as theirs. That posture, more than any strategy or any firm, is what makes the difference. One last thing before you start calling firms: walk through these 10 areas honestly with your senior leader and your key staff. Figure out where you’re strong and where you have real work to do before a consultant ever walks in the door. The campaigns that go well aren’t ones where the consultant was exceptional. They’re the ones where the church was ready.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Hal Mayer, a coach and consultant who works with pastors and business leaders to help them grow healthy teams without burning out. With decades of ministry experience and a background in coaching, Hal brings actionable insights into one of the most common leadership challenges: how to move a team from passive compliance to active engagement. Are you carrying too much of the leadership load yourself? Feeling like you're the only one coming up with ideas or pushing things forward? In this conversation, Hal shares a simple but effective framework to help leaders shift from telling to asking—and unlock the potential of their teams. Why teams become disengaged. // One of the most common frustrations leaders express is that their team feels stagnant or unmotivated. Hal suggests this is often not a team problem but a leadership problem. When leaders consistently provide the answers, shut down ideas, or unintentionally reward passivity, team members learn that their input isn't needed. Over time, they stop contributing and simply comply. What appears as laziness is often the result of a system that has trained people not to engage. From answer-giver to question-asker. // Many leaders are promoted because they have strong ideas and can solve problems quickly. However, if they continue operating as the “answer person,” they eventually limit both their own capacity and the development of their team. Hal emphasizes that asking better questions is the key to unlocking engagement. Questions reveal what team members understand, help them think critically, and shift ownership of solutions back to them. When people help create the solution, their investment in execution increases dramatically. The Smart Ask framework. // Hal introduces a practical coaching framework called Smart Ask, designed to guide conversations that lead to action. The process begins broadly by asking, “What issues are you facing?” This allows team members to surface their own challenges and become more self-aware. From there, the leader helps narrow the focus by identifying one clear goal for the conversation—something the person can act on immediately. Next comes a pivotal question: “If you could try anything, what would you do?” This opens up creativity and removes internal barriers that might limit thinking. From there, the conversation moves toward selecting one idea, identifying potential roadblocks, and outlining specific next steps. By the end, the team member leaves with a clear, self-generated action plan. Why buy-in matters more than the idea. // Even a great idea will underperform if the person responsible for executing it isn't fully invested. Conversely, a slightly weaker idea can produce better results if the team member has full ownership and enthusiasm. Engagement drives execution. When leaders consistently choose their own ideas over their team's, they unintentionally lower buy-in and limit results. Coaching toward self-leadership. // Over time, consistently using questions develops leaders who can think and solve problems independently. Hal describes the ultimate goal as “self-coaching” where team members begin asking themselves the same questions and generating solutions without needing constant input. This not only reduces the leader's workload but also builds a stronger, more capable team. Balancing development and delegation. // Hal cautions that delegation is not the first step. Rather, it's the result of development. Leaders must invest time in coaching and guiding their team before handing off responsibility. Skipping this process leads to frustration and failure. However, when leaders take the time to develop people through intentional questions and feedback, they create a foundation for effective delegation and long-term growth. Recognizing true engagement. // Leaders can spot engagement by watching for energy, initiative, and ownership. Engaged team members proactively solve problems, follow through on ideas, and bring solutions rather than just concerns. In contrast, disengagement shows up as slow execution, repeated questions, or a lack of enthusiasm. These are signals that more coaching, and better questions, are needed. Leading with humility and transparency. // For leaders who recognize they've been over-directing, Hal encourages a simple starting point: acknowledge it. Telling your team, “I've been giving too many answers, and I want to change that,” creates trust and opens the door for a new dynamic. This kind of vulnerability invites feedback and helps reset expectations for how the team will function moving forward. To learn more about Hal Mayer and his resources—including Smart Ask and The Coaching Playbook—visit halmayer.com or find his books on Amazon. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they're reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you've been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you are tuned in to today’s episode. Man, we’ve got something super helpful for us. It’s one of these areas that many of us spend lots of time doing, but we maybe haven’t taken a step back and think thought about what do we do in coaching relationships? We all are involved in coaching staff and people on our teams. And today we want to help you with some practical steps to make that even better. Rich Birch — Excited to have Hal Mayer with us. He’s a coach and consultant for both businesses and business leaders and pastors who want to grow but don’t want to burn out. He’s authored a few books, including “Smart Ask”, “The Coaching Playbook”, and excited to have Hal on the episode today. Welcome. So glad you’re here.Hal Mayer — It’s good to be here, Rich. I’ve been a fan on the sidelines for years, and unSeminary was so good because I did the seminary thing, and I did all the stuff, and you’re right. There’s so many things we didn’t talk about there that you help us prepare for, so thank you for what you’re doing.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s super exciting. That’s kind of you to say, but I'm I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. It’s been a while coming and so excited. We bumped into each other at the Exponential conference this year.Hal Mayer — Yeah.Rich Birch — Shout out to Exponential. I was like, we got to get you on. So excited that you’re here today. Well, why don’t we kind of start. Give us kind of the Hal background. Tell us for folks that don’t know, you know, you give us the kind of the 90 second, this is who Hal is conversation.Hal Mayer — Yeah, I, ah goodness, was born up north, came to faith in Georgia in high school. We moved down there, played basketball in college, and then coached for about five years. Married Sandy, moved off to seminary, finished that up, and I’ve been in Florida since ’84, serving in churches from the size of 200 to 12,000. Rich Birch — Love it. Hal Mayer — So all over the yard, and also do some business coaching in the middle of that.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Yeah. And I’m, I really, that’s really what I want to tap in today. You spend your days coaching both pastors and businesses leaders, like we talked about that. Rich Birch — When, when someone first sits down with you, I want to kind of use the fact that you have a lot of these conversations today to help our listeners kind of take advantage of you. When someone first sits down with you, what’s like a common version of stuck that you hear, whether it’s a pastor or maybe a business leader, like do you hear common themes with folks.Hal Mayer — Yeah, you know, probably the most common thing I hear is our team’s stuck, our team’s stagnant. And I’ll say, what do you mean by that? And they’ll often say something that relates to this of, I have to come up with all the ideas. It seems like I’m the only one pushing the team to get going. I’m the only one with the ideas. They just seem often lazy, or they’re not doing it. What do I do to engage them?Rich Birch — Right. Love that. Well, man, I wish I hadn’t thought that. I haven’t thought that as a leader over the years. What what, so then take us the next step from there. What what, as you’re kind of coaching someone, I’m assuming as a leader, you know, I, or one of my convictions is our teams are a by-product of our leadership… Hal Mayer — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and we’re leading in a way that’s leading them to act that way. So what what leads our people to be like that?Hal Mayer — Yeah, I think it’s the leader. And that’s the fun thing to do. As a parent, I loved watching my kids do something that was dumb, but they repeated it, and it’s because it was rewarded.Hal Mayer — So I watch team members disengage because they come up with an idea and it gets shot down. Or they ask everybody in the room the idea and it’s only the leader’s idea they go with. And when that happens, they they kind of go, well, I guess we’re just here to hear his ideas. And they start pulling back and not engaging and just being compliant.Rich Birch — Interesting. I remember years ago we had a coach in who said who said to us, this is when I was on the senior leadership team of a fairly large church, fast growing. We were like four or 5,000 people at the time. And he spent a bunch of time with our ah you know with our team, with us.Rich Birch — And ah he looked at us and he said, listen, you guys answer way too many questions. You need to be asking more questions than answering questions.Rich Birch — And that was a pivotal you know changing moment for me as a leader. I was like, oh, Oh my word, that is so true. Talk us through that dynamic of, you know, asking the right questions versus always being the answer man or the answer person.Hal Mayer — You know, we usually get promoted because we did the job well or we have the answers. If we continue in that framework, one day we will run out of the answers, but let’s say we’re in that framework. I’m not developing anybody if it’s only my ideas we’re using. And if we’re only using my ideas, they’ve got ideas, but they’re dying. So what I encourage and push guys to do is exactly what you said, ask questions. Hal Mayer — I mean, questions will do a couple things. One, it will tell me what they understand. I mean, do they really understand the problem? I say, tell me what’s going on. Okay. What do you see here? And all that. It tells me, do they understand the problem? And I may have to probe some more, but I want them solving things that I find out about later. And to do that, I’ve got to lead different. Hal Mayer — For me, we were in a fast growing church in South Florida. And I was the answer man. And what I realized was I’m working harder and harder and I’m not developing people. So I started stepping back and then learning this principle and started asking questions, looking for their engagement. Here’s what I found. When they had the answer or they got to do what they wanted to do, their engagement went way up.Hal Mayer — So for me, not only did it go up, they began to develop. And I’ve had somebody say, well, I don’t have time to develop people. He said, in fact, if I develop them, they’ll just leave me. I say, yeah, yeah you know, it’s worse is if you don’t develop them, they stay, right? Right.Rich Birch — Right. Exactly.Hal Mayer — So I found this to be a tool for development: asking questions.Rich Birch — Okay, that’s cool. I, like talk to me more about engagement. What would be some telltale signs for you of like someone who’s really engaged, fully engaged versus, you know, when your team isn’t as engaged? Because maybe we’re having a hard time even discerning what that looks like.Hal Mayer — Yeah, I I mean, if they’re slow walking the solve that we came up with, if there’s no passion around it, if there’s no energy going in it, and I find myself even answering the same question over and over, I’m realizing more and more, I don’t have engagement. I’ve got compliance. And I really want them engaged and dialing in to what we’re doing. And to get that, I’m going to have to get them on the same page.Rich Birch — Well, and then obviously questions are at at a core of this. And a part of what I love about your resource, “The Smart Ask” or just “Smart Ask” is this framework, it’s it’s, you know, it’s simple… Hal Mayer — Yes. Rich Birch — …but powerful. So why don’t you kind of talk us through the Smart Ask framework? What’s kind of the basic arc that you try to walk someone through?Hal Mayer — Very good.Rich Birch — Coach us through that. Talk us through what that looks like.Hal Mayer — I start very broad and I’ll say, and by the way, I take notes, but at the end I give them the notes and I’ll explain that in a minute. Rich Birch — Okay.Hal Mayer — So I'll I’ll ask permission, can I take some notes? And they’ll say, sure. And I say, I’m going to give them to you. But our first question is, what are the issues you’re facing right now? And let them just elevate them out. Let them say everything they want to say, every problem they’ve got.Hal Mayer — And then I’d say looking at these problems, is what’s one goal that we could have for our time today? Now, what that does is it focuses it on a goal and what they’re going to do, not on me. It can’t be, how could you find me 10 more leaders? That’s not something we can do in that meeting.Rich Birch — Right.Hal Mayer — So I want a goal from them, something they can do when they leave the meeting. And so they say, you know what? I want to face this volunteer engagement. In fact, I use the illustration from the book about a preschool lady who said, I need 30 more volunteers to serve in preschool. And I said, well, I can’t get that for you now. So her goal was come up with an idea that I could engage 30 more people. And then I’d go with this.Hal Mayer — Okay. If you could do anything, what would you try? Yeah. And of course, the first, she says, anything? She said, yeah. She said, I’ll pay them $1,000 a piece. I said, okay.Rich Birch — Right.Hal Mayer — And I just write it down to go ahead and get that out and get them moving on to the next thing. Rich Birch — Right. Hal Mayer — And they run through things. And I listen, I’ve got to be careful not to go, oh, that’s a really good one. But let them talk about it. And as they get through, if I’ve got something at the end, I mean, as they’re going, I’ll go, anything else you could try? Anything else you could try? And you feel like you’re asking that too much, but what you’re doing is just unpacking all of it. If I’ve got an idea, I can add that in, but I don’t give any passion to it because I don’t want to control.Hal Mayer — Then I’ll say, now look at these. Which one of these ideas would you like to explore further? And they’ll look, and this lady said, I want to explore the one about a lemonade stand in the lobby, which I thought was a dumb idea. I didn’t tell her that, but I thought, aaaah.Rich Birch — Right.Hal Mayer — So then I said, okay, what potential roadblocks? Well, I’ve got to talk to leadership. Okay, what else? And they talk about that. And any detours?Hal Mayer — Well, if this happens, we’re walking through solving the problem before it approaches, right? And then the last thing I said, okay, if you’re going to do this, what will it look like? And we list out six or eight things. And I say, okay, let me know like it goes. And hand her the paper. In this case, I said, hey, listen, let me know on Instagram how it went. Rich Birch — Oh, nice.Hal Mayer — So the next week she picked up 40 new workers. And this was a very large church. Rich Birch — Wow.Hal Mayer — She picked up 40 workers with this idea, because it was hers. And to me, it was crazy. It worked. Hal Mayer — But so the the framework is you’re starting broad and you’re narrowing down. And I’m actually getting a set of to-dos and objectives. One, two, three, four, five. Then I hand them that. They’ve got their plan. All going to do is execute it. And they develop it when I’m asking them questions. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Hal Mayer — Now, let me tell one of the advantages of that too.Rich Birch — Yeah.Hal Mayer — If I use that enough with them, there’s going to be a time when they come to me and say, and want to talk to me and I’m not available. They’ll say, well all he was going to do is ask questions. Rich Birch — Right.Hal Mayer — And they start going through the questions and they start self-coaching is what they do. And that’s the end game. That’s what I want. And by the way, when I use questions with people, I explain to them what I just did. So they can then take it and use it somewhere else.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. I’d love to start right back at the beginning. Hal Mayer — Sure.Rich Birch — I love this idea of really starting at a wide open. Hey, what challenges are you facing today? I think too often if we’re, I’m thinking in kind of the one-on-one situation, maybe I’m an executive pastor at a church of 1,500. One of my people comes to me and I go to that conversation, and I’ve got five things I want to talk to them about. Hal Mayer — Right. Rich Birch — But I love, you know, starting with what challenges are you facing? What happens if we skip that with people? If we if we don’t start there, I’m sure we get, you know, we end up in all kinds of bad places. Talk us through why you encourage people to start with that question.Hal Mayer — Especially early on when you’re coaching folks, because as they go later, they’ll kind of work through that, no, that’s the framework I’m going to work with. And they’ll come up with their biggest issue. But the reason I do that, I want to show this value to everything they’re facing. And I want them to elevate it, not me tell them what they’re doing, so they become more self-aware.Hal Mayer — Now, if they don’t list one of the things I see as an issue, I may say, and what about this? Is this an issue for you? Oh, yeah, that too. I just don’t want to put a lot of passion on it because then they’ll do what I want. And I want them to do something they’re passionate about because the framework just means I’m going to get more from it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. That that’s a key lesson. I think particularly for first-time managers or people who haven’t managed a lot of people before, we don’t realize the weight of our voice, right? Hal Mayer — Right.Rich Birch — If we, you know, even by saying like, oh yeah, you’re right. That’s a good idea. Then all of a sudden they’re running with that idea just because you indicated it. That’s an interesting thing. That’s interesting. Rich Birch — Now one of the, I mean, you kind of pulled it apart, but I would love to double click on it there. To me, as I go through your framework, I can imagine, that, hey, “what if you could try anything” is a is a pivotal moment, is kind of a turning point, it is an important question. Why is that and so important? Maybe give us another example. I love the idea when you talked through with the lemonade stand, but talk us through why that’s so important and what does that unlock as we’re interacting with our teams and people?Hal Mayer — That’s a great question because what will happen there is if we don’t ask that question, ah it’s “what if you could try anything”, they may be in the back of their mind have something they go I can’t try that. So they keep trying to think somewhere else. Just get it out on paper.Hal Mayer — It’s like when I feel stressed or something, I just list everything that I’m dealing with and then I can focus on one thing.Hal Mayer — But I allow them to get it all out at that point of trying this and trying that. And usually what will happen is they’ll come up with six or seven ideas. And I say, “and what else” a lot? And it seems like I’m saying a lot, but is when they’re in the zone, they’re answering, well, could try this. Well, could try that. I could try this. And then I find which one they have the most energy around because that’s what they want to do.Rich Birch — Yeah. And obviously you would, you observe that, that energy and you’re like, Hey, it seems like this one, tell me more about that.Hal Mayer — No, no I don’t I don’t do that.Rich Birch — Oh okay. Okay. Talk to me about that.Hal Mayer — What I do is I say, okay, which one of these seven things would you like to try?Rich Birch — Okay.Hal Mayer — Once they identify it, then I say, okay, tell me more about that. What would that look… Why do you want to try? And and then we dive into that.Rich Birch — Okay. One of the things that this strikes me, and this, when I read, again, friends, you should pick up a copy of of this book and there’s a playbook as well I want to talk about. But but I think this could be ah a huge gift for…Just this week, two days ago, I was talking to somebody who, they asked me, they said, hey, what should I be doing in my one-on-ones? I’ve got these staff, what should I be doing with them? And I thought of this framework. Rich Birch — So I think the part of what I love that you’re driving towards is is buy-in. At least my, my my impression as an outsider looking in is that this would really increase the buy-in of my staff. Talk me through, you know, the connection there between buy-in and moving the organization forward and that sort of thing. What, how does that help us think through those issues? Hal Mayer — Yeah. I’m going to bring up the equation I use in the book, the buy-in equation, or the engagement question, whatever that is. I was a math teacher in a former life. So PBI, possible value of an idea, times BI, the buy-in, equals their ROI.Hal Mayer — Now, let’s say, you know, we’ve we’re we’ve got, you’re my boss and I’m doing student ministry and you have an idea because you did student ministry and all that. Your idea out of one 10, it’s going to at least be a nine. I mean, you’re Rich Birch. I mean, you have all the answers.Hal Mayer — Now me doing it, I don’t get any input on it. So I will comply. I will do it, but my buy-in is probably going to be about a three. I’ll do what you ask, but there’s not going be a passion with it. So 3 times your 9 idea is a 27. Hal Mayer — However, let’s say I come up with an idea and it’s not going as good as yours. In fact, it’s a only two thirds as good as yours. It’s a 6, but what’s my buying going to be if it’s my idea? It’s a 10.Rich Birch — A lot higher. Yeah.Hal Mayer — That’s a 60. So there’s a 60 ROI to my buy-in because of my buy-in as opposed to a 27. Now you had the better idea, but buy-in is what gets it done. We’ve seen that over and over again. When people are bought in on something, they often they’ll make a bad idea work. We’ve seen that.Hal Mayer — So for me, that’s what I want. I want full engagement. And when they know that they get to do their ideas, people are much more engaged than they’re running around doing mine. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true. As a coach, somebody who obviously I coach people full time now and and that is you’ve you’ve named something there that I think is critically important and that oftentimes like I can’t coach people who don’t want to be coached.Hal Mayer — Right.Rich Birch — Right? Like if they’re not bought in, if they don’t think this will help. And, you know, I’ve said in other contexts, I’ve been like, man, the the leaders who who apply the frameworks we’re talking about are seeing great results. And those that are applying, the majority of them are seeing, but a lot of it is just their own buy-in on these issues. Hal Mayer — Right.Rich Birch — There might be a leader that’s listening in today that’s like, okay, this all sounds good, but like, what if my people just have bad ideas? Like, and if, if it’s going to push us in the wrong direction, like it’s one thing to be like, tell me seven ideas. All seven of those are crappy and they’re going to, we’re going to end up somewhere where I don’t want us to end up as it. How do I steer somebody back towards better direction?Hal Mayer — Yeah. One the things before I give people full leash or full run on something is I want to check out their readiness for it. For example, if I want to do brain surgery, I may be excited. I may have done AI search on it and Claude said, do it this way and all that. But I’m not ready for that. It wouldn’t take but a second to find that out. I found that out in high school. I went, so I worked at a gas station where they actually worked on cars too. And I saw a guy fixing the valve. So I went home and took my 1960s Comet and tightened the valves down and ended up having to get a valve job. Hal Mayer — I was excited. I was passionate, but I wasn’t ready. So if you don’t have people who are ready, you cannot hand it off to them. They must be developed some. They’ve got to have some experience. To hire somebody in fresh who’s never done it before and start leading with questions is like leading me with questions in how to operate. I wouldn’t have a clue. I’d be most excited about cutting. No, stop.Hal Mayer — However, questions also help draw focus. And sometimes the reason they don’t have ideas, is we haven’t focused them.Hal Mayer — I learned this with a physical metaphor. Somebody told me it would work. My son, pretty good basketball player. I had him out driveway. I said, son, see how many shots you can make out of 10? And so what that basically did was put a little pressure on, right? And he’s a good, so he shot four out of 10 from the three point line.Hal Mayer — I said, okay, let’s forget about how many you’re making and just shoot and answer my questions. I said, okay, what do you notice? All right, what do you notice about the ball? What do you notice about the ball? He hit 10 in a row. And what I discovered was, you know, you college athletes who will shoot seven out of 10 in a game, but in practice hit 20 in a row. It’s the fog of war or whatever.Hal Mayer — And so with employees, sometimes we haven’t asked enough questions. to get through that. However, we could also have some people who aren’t ready to lead. It’s not fair to expect them to come up with good ideas. They haven’t done anything. So both edges on that. Hal Mayer — And at the end of the day, all of the employees I have are my fault. And if I haven’t developed them, that’s on me, right?Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Talk to me about, so I feel like there are, lead there’s leaders on our teams or there’s people that are listening in today that think they’ve got buy-in, but they really actually don’t. They think their teams are really with them, but they don’t. How, what advice could you give us to try to spot the difference around buy-in that’s not actually there? Like I keep kind of bumping into this wall. How can, how can we spot that?Hal Mayer — You know I look for people who are solving problems. Are they solving them and telling me about it later? Are they coming to me with every problem? Because that means I’m still solving. Buy-in has to do with the passion and the ability to finish something. It doesn’t mean you work until 9 o’clock every night, but it does mean you manage to get the ball across the line.Hal Mayer — So when I watch a lack of energy around an idea or somebody slow walking it. Or maybe somebody asking questions that really aren’t, that are just curmudgeon questions. They’re asking questions just to find every hole that’s wrong. I mean, everything that you can find, well, suppose that doesn’t work. Suppose… That’s not buy-in because for me, my challenge is always, don’t tell me what won’t work or tell me what’s not working. Give me an idea of what we might try. At least then we’re thinking in solutions and not just problems.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s really good. So a big part of scaling any organization, a growing church, a growing business is delegation, is leaders figuring out how to give away things they’re doing. I’ve said this in so many contexts, you know, roll this clock forward. The majority of what you’re doing, we need to figure out how to give to someone else… Hal Mayer — Right. Rich Birch — …how to empower a volunteer or another staff member to pick that up. How does asking better questions change the way we hand off responsibility to other people? How how does it help in that transaction?Hal Mayer — You know, I'm a big fan of Ken Blanchard and the book “Situational Leadership”.Hal Mayer — And I used to train that with a corporation. And one of the things I watch is people like to start people and like to delegate. But when they leave off the coaching in between, it’s not delegation, it’s abdication. And people fail. Hal Mayer — I go, what’s wrong? They said they understood. Well, you stay engaged. I mean, you give them a task. You stay engaged. You’re asking questions. Soon, you’re no longer asking questions to to help them figure out what to do. You’re just asking questions to draw focus. And then you know they’re ready. You can hand it off to them. Hal Mayer — But you’re right. If we’re not finding a way to delegate, but delegation is not the first step nor the second. It’s more like the fourth, right? You watch me. We do it together. I watch you. You’re doing it. However you want to call that. But it takes more engagement. Hal Mayer — People say, well I don’t have time for that. Well, here’s the deal. You can pay me now or you’ll pay me later. But you’re going to pay me. If you’re if you’re not developing people, you’re going to run into a system where you’ve got a bunch of people who don’t know how to think and do. And that’s on you.Rich Birch — True. Yeah, that’s so true. And if we don’t start that process, hey, you watch me, we do together. And if we don’t start that process today, we’ll never get there. And so it takes time. But we’ve got to, you know, that’s, that’s what it we just constantly have to repeat that over and over and over in our areas. I love that. So let’s talk more specifically about the books specifically. So it’s “Smart Ask: Questions that lead your team to win.” Where can we pick up copies of this? If people are looking, because I think this is not a huge book. It’s, you know, if you’re watching on video, it’s just a little thin one, but it’s got, it’s one of these ones. It’s a quick read. You could literally give it to a team member and say, hey, let’s read through this. And then we’re going to talk about it next week. I’d love to get your thoughts on it. But talk to us kind of, when why did you put this together in a book form?Hal Mayer — Well, I was training it and people kept asking me questions. And the only reason I write books is to stop answering all the questions I get asked, right? Is to put it out there. I mean, Seth Godin’s idea of a long tail, right? I want it to last when when I put a book out there.Hal Mayer — So “Smart Ask” is on Amazon, but it was created for the purpose to to help people, after I’ve used it in coaching, to be able to take it then and train their teams. Because it dives in also to the why it works and and such as that. But you’re right, intentionally a short book because I like short books and there you go.Rich Birch — Well, and we all, you know, I can say this as an author, that we’re tempted when we write to be like, well, I’m just going to stuff a bunch of other stuff in there.Rich Birch — But this is, it’s to the point, it’s it’s focused, it’s a great training material, I think, like you say, for you know for our entire team.Hal Mayer — Right.Rich Birch — But then you also put together a playbook. Talk us through how this is different than just the standard book.Hal Mayer — Well, my daughter-in-law, Chrissy, Chrissy Mayer, married to my son. She’s a pastor over to church in Tampa, Grace Family Church. And she said, why don’t you create a handbook for it? And you know what I said? Why don’t you do that?Rich Birch — That sounds like a great idea for you.Hal Mayer — So I said, that sounds like great idea. Once you create the framework, I’ll get it published on. So she did the work and we got together and we put it there. And the reason for it is you can take your coaching conversation, it has all the questions in it. It’s got lines you can write answers. And it gives you a chance to keep up. And I would probably take a picture and send the person they’re the the answers they gave to the questions or whatever like that. It just helps you stay on track. So you’ve got all the questions right there.Rich Birch — And yeah, talk us through the the handing off of the notes back to someone. I think that’s a great move. Hal Mayer — Yeah.Rich Birch — Talk us through why that’s important. Why is that such a critical piece of the puzzle?Hal Mayer — Well people are so used to us building files on them. And you’re going to put that in my file to show that I didn’t know what to do? And so I asked for permission on the front end to take notes. Now, if I’m the boss, I’ll do take notes if I want to. But I I won’t and I won’t if they say no, though. So I’m I’m really giving it to them. And I tell them, I’m going to give you these at the end because I don’t want them taking notes. I want them talking. I want their full engagement with me. And you can’t get that while they’re writing.Rich Birch — That’s good.Hal Mayer — So I said, you just pay attention to me. I’ll take the notes and I’ll give you them at the end. Then you hand them at the end and they’ve got their execution plan.Hal Mayer — So my meeting with them, usually it’s a 30-minute meeting and land with an execution plan that gets handed to them and they go back and do the work. So it pulls them into full engagement. They’re not getting distracted by trying to write down everything or slow play that way. So I’m taking notes again, putting value to them. Hal Mayer — When when they’re the hero, right, and I’m the guide, what I’m doing is is setting them up. And when you take notes on somebody, that means something to them. Rich Birch — Right, right. Hal Mayer — So that’s where I am. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Now, what about, so one of the tensions I have found in my one-on-ones is wanna make sure that I’m doing all the other stuff: caring for them, you know releasing, you know I guess, finding barriers that that I can pull apart for them and say like, hey, here’s some stuff. Yeah, I’m gonna take some to…Hal Mayer — Right.Rich Birch — And I’ve said to my team in the past, hey, I’m hoping that you don’t walk away from this with a bunch of to-dos. That’s not the the goal of today. I want to help you. And I know you got a lot going on. I don’t want to just dump on you today. And so how do you avoid that in this framework that we don’t end up with? Okay. Every time they meet with Hal, now I’ve just ended up with a plan that I just, gosh, I just gave myself more work to do. How do you, how do you, do you understand that tension?Hal Mayer — Yeah, I don’t do this every meeting with them.Rich Birch — Okay.Hal Mayer —  The meetings on there. And I, you know, I’ll check in. How are you doing? One the things I i really want to pay attention to is the emotional, soul, health of the individual.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Hal Mayer — Because we’ve got people facing burnout today. So I’ll ask them, you know, tell me on a scale of one to 10, what are you feeling? You feel like you want a 1 being I want to go home and go to bed, a 10 being let’s charge hell with water pistols. Right, that gives me a framework. The number doesn’t really matter. I just compare it each time to see if they’re tanking.Hal Mayer — The second thing I’ll ask for is give me a win in your private life, in your home.Rich Birch — That’s good.Hal Mayer — Give me a win in your ah ah ministry side because I want to get them on the positive run. And then I’ll say, anything you need from me. And this may be 15-minute meeting. But what it is is I’m checking in on them. If I have something I need them to do, sure, I can tell them. But I’m checking in on them, and ah that gives them value, right?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s really good. That’s good. I love there’s, friends, as you’re listening and you can tell Hal’s done this a few times. And so, you know, it’s been such a great conversation for you. So if if I’m a church leader listening in today and I feel like, man, I’m doing way too much telling and not enough asking, where would I, and and maybe even my team has told me this.Hal Mayer — Yeah.Rich Birch — Where do I start? How do I start to shift that dynamic with my people? Because because you you you kind of set this up at the beginning of like the teams that are passively disengaged, they’re just waiting for for you to give the list of, okay, go do these 12 things and then come back. How do I shift that dynamic? Where do I start? If i if my analysis is, I think that I’ve actually done that to my team, ah where would we start?Hal Mayer — If I’m convinced of that, I start at this place and I’ve done this before. Guys, you know what? I’ve been running our meetings and coming up with the answers and that’s not fair. So what I want to do is pull back more and get your engagement. So I’m going to be asking questions. I need your engagement in this meeting and your ideas coming. And in fact, if you see me over talking, catch me one-on-one afterwards and give me some feedback because I’m open up the feedback loop then, right?Hal Mayer — But I will do some self-disclosure and just own it because here’s what I do know. If you don’t own it, they won’t recognize the difference later. For example, if I tell somebody, you know what, I’m going to work on asking more questions. Six months they go, wow, you’re asking more questions. If I don’t tell them, they’ll never at they’ll never notice. Sometimes you have to highlight it. Hey, I’m going to stop being the guy trying to be the smartest man in the room, and I’m going to do this.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Hal Mayer — People get, vulnerability from a leader is a great thing, right? Own their stuff, but come up with some resources ah to help them, so so you’re asking more questions.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I like that. I like i think that’s a keen insight, that not just like shifting the behavior, but actually pointing to it like, hey, as a person, I’m changing. And the implicit, the great kind of ninja move you’re doing there is like, and therefore I need you to change because, you know, what?Hal Mayer — Right. Right.Rich Birch — I’m changing because I don’t think this is working. Implicit in that is I don’t think our relationship is structured correctly and we need to figure out a different way to do that. You don’t even need to necessarily say that. But but flagging that, hey, I need to change my approach, I think is a really smart move for sure. That’s you know that’s fantastic. Rich Birch — Well, as we’re coming down to land today’s episode, any kind of final words around this idea of asking, leading with questions rather than being the answer person all the time?Hal Mayer — Yeah, this model doesn’t mean you don’t ask offer suggestions. This model doesn’t mean you couldn’t collaborate to build it. It just means you can’t be the person always having the answer.Hal Mayer — And it’s engaging other people. And the thing you will find for me that I have found, when I truly am asking them for their ideas and we execute on their ideas, they’ll come back later and say, you know, I thought that was one of those conferences you went to that said ask questions.Hal Mayer — But you actually did execute on what we talked about. Then they’re more engaged because everybody wants has ideas and wants to be heard and wants to be a part. I think people are motivated. They’re just not motivated when we take over a meeting and and run everything, right? There’s an intrinsic motivation. There’s there’s something they want to do. They’re in ministry, not because they’re just wanting to plow through. They want to see a difference. Well, they’re in the business cycle.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s very true. And I think that’s a good reminder for us. I think sometimes we can get caught in the weeds of running Church World and we forget that like all these people have chosen to be here. They could be doing something else. Hal Mayer — Right.Rich Birch — And how do we bring the best out of them? And how do we, you’ve encouraged me to thinking about long term the long-term win, that really engagement, even if we have to walk through a couple of things that maybe are not the best, because… But if I can get engagement up with my team, man, that’s way better place than like, sure, we have the, it’s the, you know, it’s that perfect plan that’s poorly executed. We want to avoid that, you know, even an imperfect plan. But if it’s got tons of engagement behind it, man, there’s some gold there that we need to think more clearly about. That’s good. Love it. Hal Mayer — Yep.Rich Birch — Well, I want to send people to Amazon to pick up both of these. I think it’d be great. I really do think this could be the kind of book you could build a staff training around it, friends, really easily. You’ve got 15 staff. You could buy 15 copies of this and say, hey, you’re going to read this. And then we’re going to come to our you know team meeting in two months or whatever in a month. And we’re going to work through how do we ask better questions in our our training. That’s how it sticks out to me. Anywhere else we want to send people online to connect with you or to pick up copies of the book?Hal Mayer — You can catch my web website at halmayer.com. They can email me at hal@halmayer.com or I’m on the socials just as Hal Mayer. I, my son is Hal Mayer also, but I beat him to all of them. So I’m Hal Mayer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. It’s just /halmayer. So I win there.Rich Birch — Nice. Really appreciate you, Hal. You’re a good friend of leaders and I appreciate you being on today. Thanks for being here.Hal Mayer — Thanks, man. It’s been an honor.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Aaron Graham, lead pastor of The District Church, a diverse and growing congregation in the heart of Washington, D.C. Founded in 2010 just a few miles from the White House, the church has become known for its global diversity—with people from more than 80 nations represented—and its commitment to living out the gospel for the good of the city. Are you noticing both spiritual curiosity and spiritual drift among people in your community? Wondering how to disciple people faithfully in a culture that increasingly pushes back against historic Christian orthodoxy? In this conversation, Aaron shares insights from his ministry context in D.C. and his new book Unshakable Faith: How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies, offering practical ways churches can respond to cultural pressure while forming resilient disciples from the next generation. A generation leaning in—and drifting away. // Aaron observes a striking tension among young adults today: some are pursuing faith with new seriousness, while others are quietly drifting away. Cities like Washington, D.C., attract highly educated young professionals who want to make a difference in the world through public service. Many are motivated by compassion and a desire to serve others, but they also face cultural pressures that can slowly reshape their beliefs. In Aaron's experience, this environment creates both incredible opportunities for ministry and real challenges in maintaining historic Christian faith. Some people are exploring spiritual questions deeply, while others disengage from church entirely through gradual spiritual drift. Understanding doubt, deconstruction, and denial. // Aaron encourages church leaders to distinguish between three different spiritual responses: doubt, deconstruction, and denial. Doubt is a natural part of faith—it involves uncertainty and questions that can ultimately strengthen belief when handled within a supportive community. Deconstruction, however, goes further by dismantling previously held beliefs. While some deconstruction may be necessary—especially when people have experienced unhealthy theology or spiritual abuse—it becomes dangerous when it happens in isolation without reconstructing a healthier biblical foundation. Denial is the final stage, where a person actively rejects core Christian beliefs. Recognizing these distinctions helps pastors respond with wisdom and compassion rather than assuming everyone wrestling with faith is in the same place. Creating space for honest questions. // One practical way The District Church engages doubt is through a summer series called “This Is My Story.” During this series, church members share short testimonies about their biggest spiritual questions and how God met them through those struggles and doubts. These stories normalize honest questions while showing that faith can deepen through wrestling with difficult issues. Instead of centering doubt itself, the church highlights the journey from questioning to deeper trust in God. This approach has been especially meaningful for newcomers, helping them see that the church is a place where people can wrestle honestly with faith while still moving toward spiritual maturity. Resisting the pull of cultural lies. // Aaron's book identifies several cultural narratives that quietly reshape Christian belief. One example is what he calls the “selective Christian”—someone who edits Scripture to match personal preferences or cultural expectations. When believers accept only the parts of the Bible that feel comfortable, the authority of Scripture slowly erodes. Over time, this selective approach strips the gospel of its transformative power. Aaron emphasizes that discipleship must include serious engagement with the whole Bible, even the passages that challenge modern assumptions. Returning to deep Bible engagement. // One of the most effective ways Aaron addresses cultural pressure is by encouraging consistent Bible engagement within the church. Through reading plans, group discussions, and teaching that emphasizes submission to Scripture rather than simply learning about it, believers begin to develop a more holistic faith. Interestingly, Aaron notes that people who deeply engage Scripture often become both more morally conservative and more socially liberal with deeper compassion toward others. Instead of fitting into political categories, they develop a kingdom perspective shaped by the teachings of Jesus. Holding together justice and biblical conviction. // Throughout his ministry, Aaron has worked extensively in justice initiatives, advocating for the poor and vulnerable. However, he has also seen many leaders abandon historic Christian beliefs while pursuing social justice causes. This experience convinced him that justice and biblical orthodoxy must remain connected. True justice flows naturally from a high view of Scripture and the lordship of Christ. When churches separate the two, they risk losing both their theological foundation and their long-term spiritual influence. To learn more about Aaron Graham's book Unshakable Faith: How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies, visit aarongrahamdc.com, where you can find resources, curriculum, and links to purchase the book. Plus, check out District Church at districtchurch.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited that you have decided to tune in today. I know you got a lot going on this week and the fact that you would turn us on is just incredible. So we want to honor you for that. Thanks for doing that. Rich Birch — Today, we’re going to talk about some stuff that I know is applicable to all of us. It It’s the kind of conversation that we’re we’re wrestling with in all of our churches. And we also have a repeat guest, which you know does not happen that often at unSeminary. And you know when we have repeat guests, it means I really want you to hear them and hear what they have to say out. Rich Birch — Today we’re honored to have Aaron Graham with us. He is the lead pastor of of District Church. It was founded in 2010 in Washington, D.C. It’s a Christ-centered, culture-defining church. for transplants and natives. The church was born from a dream about what it would look like for a church to be, or to seek the peace of the city and to exist for the sake of Christ and for the good of the city.Rich Birch — So we’re really excited to have Aaron with us today. Aaron, welcome back to the podcast after a couple of years, but glad to you glad you decided to come back on. Appreciate that.Aaron Graham — Thanks, Rich, for having me and love what you guys are doing and how you’re practically helping church leaders like myself address problems we’re facing in our organizations and culture cultural contexts. Rich Birch — Kind of you to say that. Give us a bit of the District story for folks that, you know, my mom listens to every episode, but not everyone listens to every episode. But kind of to give us a bit of the District story and and talk a little bit about how you intersect with all of that.Aaron Graham — Yeah, we launched 15 years ago right in the heart of DC. We meet two miles north of the White House, and made up of mostly young adults becoming more intergenerational. But one of the things we’ve become known for is just our diversity. So there’s over 80 nations represented in the church. Last night at the newcomers dinner, there were 14 nations represented… Rich Birch — Wow.Aaron Graham — …and so just in that small little dinner. So that’s a real privilege we have of of doing that. We’re a church of life groups and just love what we’re doing right here in the heart of DC.Rich Birch — So good. I once heard a leader say that, you know, DC is full of young leaders, young people like, and, you know, the the whole thing that, you know, the main business will call it in DC is all run on the back of, you know, 20s and 30s who are making a huge difference. What have you noticed with reaching that? And I know, i know you’re, you’re, you’re, like you said there, you’re becoming a more diverse church and, you know, age-wise in all different ways. But let’s let’s kind of focus in on that kind of 20-somethings, 30-somethings. What have you been noticing with folks in that generation as it comes to faith and their relationship with Jesus and, you know, all of their kind of spiritual side? What’s what are some of the observations you’re seeing?Aaron Graham — Yeah, well, I think a lot of young adults are leaning into their faith more than ever. There’s a revival in so many ways happening among young people, but there’s also a lot of retreating and people drifting in their faith. And so we kind of find ourselves with people either leaning in like never before or leaning out like never before. And in a context like D.C., people move to D.C. to change the world. I mean, this is where you come.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — This is a city of public service. And so these are the Ivy League, educated top of their class. They move here. They land that that job at the U.S. Capitol working for a member of Congress or the White House or an agency whatever, an advocacy advocacy firm. Aaron Graham — And so what happens is it’s very highly educated people here. And highly educated people I’ve noticed have a deep care for those who are suffering. And they want to make a difference. That’s like what public service is all about. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Graham — Like I want to help serve people. Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — And like the government is supposed to exist to serve people. And so just that kind of love for neighbor. I want to help people out. And so D.C. is like a very politically progressive, highly educated city. And there’s a lot to draw upon with that because people are making a lot of sacrifices. But it does come with some problems, mainly people drifting from biblical orthodoxy, the historic Christian faith that has been handed down to us.Rich Birch — Yeah, I, so I’m Canadian for folks that are listening in and don’t know that I lived in the States for a bunch of years. We lived in New Jersey. And I remember the first time I visited D.C. as a Canadian, I felt patriotic for America. I was like, man, this place is unbelievable. Aaron Graham — Yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — I’m like, you know, and obviously I was just there as a tourist and actually we’re visiting some friends and we got the tour of the Capitol, one of these like behind the scenes, let me put you behind the velvet rope. And I was like, this place is unreal. Like what a, what a place to serve and… Aaron Graham — Yeah. Rich Birch — …it has that kind of feeling of, you know, while people are are coming to change the world really in a positive way. I’d love to kind of focus in on this as you talk about people that are leaning, you know, leaning back, leaning away, drifting from their faith, drifting from orthodoxy. You know, we’ve we’ve heard a lot about even the kind of deconstructing movement and that, you know, there’s, it is an interesting time we live in, spiritually, because these are like two realities that are kind of happening at the same time, people leaning in and leaning back.Rich Birch — What are some of those common assumptions that you’ve noticed for people who are leaning back from, from, like you say, an Orthodox Christian faith?Aaron Graham — Yeah, absolutely. I think one is just, we’ve we’ve heard this, but just church hurt. I think scandals and hypocrisy in the church among leaders is kind of at least at an all time high of what we’re hearing about right now. And so because we’re so tapped into the news and online, I think most people are very aware, if they haven’t had a bad experience, they know somebody who has been been hurt by a religious leader or by you know a church leader. And it’s sort of like, you know we always hear the bad examples, right? Aaron Graham — Like all the planes that arrive safely every day, you never hear about. But when when the one plane has some mechanical issues or has has a rough landing, you hear about it. And I think there’s so many just faithful pastors and church leaders out there that are doing awesome work. But unfortunately, we’re hearing about the, the, the bad apples. And there’s been a lot of them that have been reported on. So I think that influences people saying, do I really want to be a part of this? If it’s an option, do I? You know, so church hurt’s one of them. Aaron Graham — I think theological differences. I mean, this is the age of the church split and human sexuality is like front and center of that. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Graham — But politics increasing these, these last few years or what side are you on and how do you interpret? So, so I think, political, theological differences. And then I think just like complacency, like just straight up spiritual drift. It’s not doctrine doctrinal. It’s not scandal. It’s just like, you know what? Like, it’s just easier not to go to church. Aaron Graham — It’s sort of the folks that left during COVID. It’s like, oh I’m going to watch online and then I’m not going to return to church. It’s just like that spiritual drift. So those are some themes I’m seeing, you know, right here in DC. And I’ve seen as a pattern and talking to other church leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah, that I’d love to kind of narrow in a little bit there on this tension between spiritual drift, like it’s the, you know, I’d rather watch football or whatever, you know, complacency. And then actually folks that are wrestling, honestly, that are asking questions and are are struggling. What have you seen? How how do you discern that how how does that? How does that work itself out? What have you learned about the difference between people who are in these kind of two categories?Aaron Graham — Yeah, I talk a lot about the difference between doubt, deconstruction, and denial. And I think it’s helpful to have these kind of three categories because it’s easy to just put everybody in the same category when they’re not dealing with the same thing.Aaron Graham — And so to doubt is to lack confidence, to be unsure about something. And that’s like part of what it means to be human, to have questions.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — Like we want to have churches where like youth and young adults can ask honest questions about human suffering and about questions they have theologically like that. You want people to be curious and it says in the book of Jude that we need to be merciful to those who doubt.Aaron Graham — And so we see that modeled in Jesus. But he ultimately calls us beyond our doubt. Like he doesn He doesn’t call us to like center our doubt. He calls us to walk by faith, not by doubt. And so we have to create space for that. But you know if a church is like, you know its mission statement is to just welcome doubters and then you center that, that’s actually not a very forward…Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — …facing thing. Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — And so, so, so we need to create space for doubt. And sometimes people, that’s just what they’re having. They’re are just having questions. Aaron Graham — I think deconstruction is a step beyond doubt and deconstruction is like when you are in the process of dismantling your beliefs. And sometimes there’s some beliefs that need to be dismantled because there’s like, you grew up in a church that had like really messed up theology. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Aaron Graham — Like you grew up in a cult or something. Rich Birch — Yeah. Aaron Graham — And you’re like, I’ve got to deconstruct this. Or like I experienced spiritual manipulation and I thought this is what it meant to honor a leader. Or I experienced abuse in some way. And so you have to kind of deconstruct that. The problem is a lot of people are deconstructing outside of the context of community or biblical community. And so they’re doing so in isolation and the enemy loves that. Like the enemy loves to isolate us. Aaron Graham — And so if you’re going to deconstruct something unhealthy, you have to reconstruct. And the problem is there’s been a lot of deconstruction without reconstructing. So so there’s doubt, there’s deconstruction, and then unhealthy deconstruction can lead to denial, right? This is Judas, right? This is like, I will not go with you. Rich Birch — rightAaron Graham — Like and so denial is like, is more active, where doubt is more passive, denial can be ah more more active. And I think it’s very dangerous. This is Jude saying, snatch them from the fire. You know, this is life or death type of thing. So.Rich Birch — Can we focus in a bit on the doubt piece for a second? What does that look like for you as a leader? Like, what are some practical ways that we can offer space for people who are, who do have legit doubts? And, you know, I get that there’s this tension of like, we don’t want to create just like, let’s all get around and talk about what we don’t know. But like, how how can we do that? Or how are you doing that at District? What’s that look like for you guys?Aaron Graham — We do a series every summer called This Is My Story, where I don’t preach for two weeks and we hear 10-minute testimonies from people in our church. So three 10-minute testimonies each week, and we select people in our church and then we coach them around how to prepare for it. And they share a question, their biggest question, their biggest doubt, their biggest struggle and how they’ve moved through that and how it’s actually enabled them to deepen their faith and not to deconstruct their faith.Aaron Graham — So it’s testimony time, but it’s structured around how they’ve moved through doubt. Because I think our biggest questions, for me as a child, it was why do kids die of preventable causes? Like it shapes so much of your calling if you process it in a healthy way. And so, yeah, so this is my story. And that’s just been really helpful. It gives the pastor a break. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Graham — Sometimes I’m doing it when I’m on vacation. Rich Birch — Yeah. Aaron Graham — So allows me to step out, but it also allows leaders. And so what it does in terms of formation in the congregation is we’re actually moving the date this year to be when most newcomers come at the end of August. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Aaron Graham — Because it’s been so popular with newcomers. Cause they’re like, Oh, I see myself in this church. Like, Oh, you have questions too. I have questions. But once again, it’s not like I’m centering that doubt or that question at the end of the day. So, so that’s, that’s one thing practically, you know, we’ve done.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. I love that. And, you know, there there was a time in the generation before me where, yeah, it was like, you don’t acknowledge any of that, right? It’s like, you don’t, you can’t ask any of those questions. Cause that, that is it’s like, just asking the question is going to, it’s like something bad is going to happen. I worked for a long time for a lead pastor that did open forum Q and A after every single message. So every single message you would say, Hey, like, is there anything, have any questions about anything I said or left unsaid? And similarly, it, it created a culture where, people kept you honest as a preacher. I hated it when I spoke. I was like, gosh, because you know, like any question? Aaron Graham — Totally.Rich Birch — But it did create a culture where like, hey, it’s okay to ask, right? It’s okay to to explore for sure.Aaron Graham — Yeah, that’s great.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s interesting.Aaron Graham — I love it.Rich Birch — So getting back to this whole idea, you know, doubt, discernment, denial, at some point, you know, you’ve started to see some patterns in the culture around us, some recurring themes that you’ve seen. And actually you package these into a book that I want to make sure people, I actually think it’d be a really helpful tool for folks. But and so no, I’m not just trying to sell books, but I do think it’s a helpful thing. Help us talk through, so tell us about the book and how is it set up? What is the framework for it?Aaron Graham — Yeah, so the new book’s called Unshakable Faith: How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies. And for me, it really came about from trying to see this pattern of so many people slowly drifting from their faith and saying, how do we prevent this as pastors?Aaron Graham — Like, the if we don’t disciple our people, the world gladly will. And in some ways, they’re doing the world’s doing a better job…Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — …of discipling our people. And so what are these like subtle lies that people are believing that is causing people to, you know, not lean into their faith. And I’ve just seen it like in the urban center here, I’ve just seen so many well-intentioned, highly educated, sometimes often sincere people just drift.Aaron Graham — And so they’re no longer going to church. They’re not raising their kids in the faith. And so, yeah, I’ve just seen it over and over. And so I wrote this book in response to that. And honestly, in so many ways, it’s a critique of what I what I call progressive Christianity. And I mean that theologically, not politically. But it’s it’s when someone reinterprets Scripture, the historic teachings of Scripture, to make it more comfortable or palatable to the current culture.Aaron Graham — It’s it’s like emphasizing relevance over faithfulness. And so what I’ve seen so often over and over is that oh, this isn’t just a conversation around human sexuality or progressive Christianity. Progressive Christianity is becoming a layover to post-Christianity for so many people. And so I just began to say, okay, is this new thing? Oh, it’s actually not new. It’s not in the last like 20 years.Aaron Graham — This has been happening for like 500 years since the enlightenment where you know progressive Christians, or however they’re labeled, end up denying the miraculous. And then denying at the core the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is like the very core of our faith. Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — I was like, this isn’t just a conversation around human sexuality, which is where it started with the newcomer. This is, you know, or with the leader, even in the church, this is about something much more deep.Aaron Graham — And so that’s when I just began to pray in this and and just say, what are the patterns that I’m seeing? What are these lies that people are often like well-meaning, but believing? And how is that compromising our ability to call people to faith, but also help make disciples. So.Rich Birch — Is there, I think, friends, I had a chance to sneak peek at this book and I think it could be a great resource for many of our churches. It could be a great kind of small group discussion, a great leadership book. I think it could be a fantastic thing for us to do with our leadership team together wrestling through these these issues. so We’re not going to be able to cover all of it, but what would you say maybe one of these pernicious subtle lies that you see is prevailing? It it’s it it pops up all the time. Help us unpack one of those.Aaron Graham — Yeah, sure. So one of them I talk about is the selective Christian, the person who edits scripture to fit preferences rather than engaging in the whole word of God. And you know, Jim Wallace, who is a well-known social justice advocate in the 70s, when he was at Trinity Evangelical Seminary, got together with some friends, and they went through the Bible and they cut up every reference in the Bible to the poor, or to the widow, the orphan. And there’s like 2000 verses in the Bible about about that. And he would go around and he’d hold up a Bible and he’d say, this is the Bible we have in in America. It’s a Bible full of holes because we’ve neglected the call to justice and the call to care for the poor.Aaron Graham — Well, I’m seeing that same thing happen in this next generation around some other core doctrine, around human depravity, around human sexuality, around gender and marriage and these other things that we don’t want to talk about. But what’s really at stake in so many ways is the authority of Scripture. And so we pick and choose what parts we want to believe. And then we strip the gospel of its saving power because we’ve only chosen to believe the parts that are the most acceptable to us and our friends in this cultural moment. That’s just a really dangerous way to not be formed in our faith.Rich Birch — Yeah. And, you know, I think we’ve, you can see that in how, you know, we handle scripture. I think one of the dangers that we face as preachers, we did a study where we looked at common passages that people were using over a couple years in churches. And we found that, you know, it’s not surprising, right? People come back to like the same passages time and time again, because I think we are trying to, even if it’s not if it’s not a like a willful decision, we just kind of drift in that direction of like, hey, well, I’m just not going to talk about that because I just am not sure what to say. Rich Birch — How how do you fight this in yourself, in the church around you? Because you know you are a winsome leader. You’re a church full of grace. You’re trying to actually interact with the culture. You’re not running for the hills. You’re not like, you know, putting your head in the sand kind of thing. How, how do you, how does not being a selective Christian work itself out in, in your world?Aaron Graham — Yeah, so one of the things I’m trying to really emphasize in our church is like Bible engagement. It seems like so 101, but it’s like, guys, we got to read our Bibles. Rich Birch — Yeah, no, absolutely. Aaron Graham — And so it’s like you know Bible in a year kind of plans, getting as many groups together. I lead a group on on Bible in a year, and it’s like, let’s read the whole Bible and let’s like struggle with these passages and talking about it and like, let’s see the power of the word of God.Aaron Graham — And so, you know, there’s a lot of research that shows that people who engage with the Bible have like measurable differences in their life. And one of the things is that when you actually engage in not in reading the Bible, but actually submitting yourself to it, you become both more liberal and conservative. Because you you you become more morally conservative and you become more socially liberal, like in caring for the needs of others. And so you just break out of these categories.Aaron Graham — And for somebody like you in Canada, that’s not in the US, like, it’s kind of crazy how we get polarized in the U.S. over certain things that that global Christians don’t get as as polarized on in some ways.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — And so I think that’s one of the things that I’ve seen a lot of fruit in is like, hey, we’re going to be at a church that’s about the word of God. We’re going to teach the word of God. We’re going to sit under its authority even when it’s uncomfortable.Aaron Graham — And I find even in very progressive cities like D.C., people hunger for biblical teaching.Even if they they don’t agree with it all, they’ll come listen to it because they’re looking for something that’s different than what they’re hearing everywhere else where it’s like affirm, affirm, affirm everything. It’s like, I wanna be called to something higher, something that’s bigger than me, that’s more historic than me. So as it relates to being a selective Christian, I think just simple Bible engagement and really putting effort in that has is has borne a lot of fruit.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. I know my lead pastor has been saying the same thing for the last few years. And I would I would echo this. I think this has been, this is a very unique season where I think in general, the culture is leaning in and asking the question, what is it about this? And, you know, Jeff, my lead pastor makes the joke. He’s like this, you see this rippling it all in all parts of culture. There’s you know one of the outcomes of the fact that things are so kind of changing all the time, we’re we’re obsessed with the you know the latest trend or whatever, is people want things that have been true for a long time. They’re and it’s why are people putting chickens in their backyards? And what is it with all the sourdough? Like, why does that stuff, why is that resonating? Rich Birch — There’s a connection to this so, you know, similar kind of cultural issue that we’re saying here with scripture, where it’s like, I’m intrigued by the Bible. I want to learn about that because that’s it something we’ve been telling each other these stories for thousands of years. And how does that apply to our lives? Let’s not miss that moment, church leaders, and not actually give them what they’re what they’re looking for. So yeah, that’s that’s interesting.Aaron Graham — Absolutely. I think the devil really overplayed his hand as it relates to secular culture. Meaning, secular culture meaning it’s defined itself in opposition to the church with a message of the more personal freedom you have, the more autonomy you have, the more the happier you’ll be. And Gen Z is waking up and being like…Rich Birch — That’s not true. Yeah.Aaron Graham — …no, this is not fulfilling. I want something more historic and rooted. And that’s, I think, one of the things that’s leading a lot of people to come into the church right now in this generation. They’re just saying, I’m hungry for God. And I don’t think that just having more freedom and flexibility is the answer.Aaron Graham — It’s like so somebody just gave their life to Jesus on Sunday, came to the newcomer’s dinner last night, and he’s like, what do I need to do next? And and you know and I gave it to him hard. I was like, it’s not just about praying a prayer. You prayed that, praise the Lord, and you’re going to baptized and you’re doing a Rooted group and all this. But it’s like, what in your life, in your relationships in your work, like you need to cut some things off, like repentance, like change directions. And he’s like, yeah, like, tell me more. You know, he’s like leaning in.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.Aaron Graham — Like, I think people want to be led, like in love, but they want to be led. Rich Birch — Yeah.Aaron Graham — It’s not just like choose your own adventure.Rich Birch — Yeah.Aaron Graham — That’s not helping this generation.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true. I would echo that. You know, it does feel like we’ve come to the end of secular humanism. And and I remember a time when I first started ministry, I was like, well, it sure seems that that’s working. Aaron Graham — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like, it’s just so dominant, but it feels like there’s this collective like, well, that didn’t work. So. Rich Birch — What was that what’s another lie that we, again, we’re not gonna able to get to all of them. So don’t worry, friends. And we, you know, you’re gonna have to read the book. But what’s another one that that has bubbled up that’s been, you know particularly intriguing as you’ve interacted with people around it?Aaron Graham — Yeah, um there’s there’s so many different ones, but I think um one of them is the divisive influencer. This is the seventh lie, so I’ll kind of take it to the the end of the book here. But the divisive influencer is really growing right now. It’s somebody who kind of mirrors cancel culture instead of practicing radical forgiveness and grace. Aaron Graham — And so we see a lot of political polarization right now. We feel it in our families. We feel it in our churches where it’s like you’re coming for a holiday meal and it’s like, it’s this tension underneath. We feel it in life groups and it’s like, how do we navigate this? And so that’s that’s one of the ones that, you know, being in DC the political…Rich Birch — Yeah, it was gonna that was going to be my follow-up. I’m like, wait a second. Isn’t that the bread and butter of the people you work with?Aaron Graham — Yes. And honestly, people, when they come to church, even in DC, they don’t want to like enter into an echo chamber. They want to be formed. They want to go upstream. They want to hear the word of the Lord.Aaron Graham — And so I think that one of the things as it relates to this, like cancel culture and like the solution to that obviously is like Jesus, it’s like, love your enemies, forgive those who persecute you. Like actually when you lean into relationships with people who are different, like that’s that’s how you you grow.Aaron Graham — And so whenever we’re dealing with an issue, like whatever, some issues in the news, and it’s like, oh, what should should we what should we include in our prayer? Do we need to talk about that in the sermon? And you know you’re getting pressure from certain people to do that. One of the things I’ve realized is that if we haven’t gone upstream as church leaders, and taught our congregation the biblical call around poverty or abortion or immigration or whatever, then when it pops up in the news, we get very reactive and people interpret that through their political lens. They’ve already made their mind up.Aaron Graham — And so some pastors are playing on this and you can kind of grow your church, like you’ll lose 10%, but grow 40% because you kind of lean into that predictable division.Rich Birch — Yep.Aaron Graham — But I think that one of the the calls of of Jesus is like, how do we we go upstream so you can form people to say, hey, we have to engage in poverty. We have to… But like two Christians can agree on addressing something like abortion, poverty, you know justice, and disagree which policy solution will be the best. And so we should have that kind of diversity our church.Aaron Graham — That’s what’s made our nation great is having that level of diversity. And I think we need to model that out in the church, not just our racial and ethnic diversity but I think our political diversity is increasingly important and it’s not to say that each side is like morally equivalent on each issue. I think some parties are way better on certain issues than others. But I think we have to really lean into this forgiveness and not lean into this radical divisive influencer even though that kind of posture may be rewarded online. And this next generation is, I think a high percentage of them want to be influencers online. So there’s ah a great temptation to kind of lean into that. But it’s like, what does Jesus teach us around that?Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, I think you’re calling out of something that we you know definitely see. And there’s ah even ah ah this kind of return of particularly young men back to church. There’s some of that that I’m not sure is is actually positive where it’s it’s leaning towards. It’s a it is a very politically charged kind of faith that to me doesn’t read Jesus. It or it’s a it’s just one aspect maybe of of of Jesus. So that’s interesting you’re calling that out for sure.Rich Birch — Off-roading a little bit on a similar topic, one of the things I find fascinating about you, about the church, about District, is that there was like this false dichotomy that’s set up in a lot of churches. It’s like, hey, you can either be a church that is has a high value on scripture, which you clearly do. Or you can be a church that is engaged in issues of development and justice in the world around you. You can’t do both of those. You can’t actually make a difference in the community around you, be cared, be care about the poor care about those things and also have a high view of scripture. I’m not saying that’s true. I’m saying there seems to be this popular notion out there. Your church seems to be doing both, trying to do both. Am I reading that correctly? Help me understand how, how you see those interacting with each other.Aaron Graham — Yeah, I’ve always been known the last 20 years in ministry as the justice guy, the one calling the church to engage in justice. And then I looked up around and saw so many of my justice friends had deconstructed their faith, were no longer pastoring churches, and their kids weren’t following Jesus. Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — And I was like, something’s wrong. Because it’s like, oh, we’re trying to like care for the poor, but now we’ve lost our faith in the process. And the kids that we’re raising, we have no message for them other than just be tolerant and inclusive Christians. Like tolerant being tolerant and inclusive and loving is a great value. Jesus is the most loving person, but he called people to repentance and he called people to the to to the Father.Aaron Graham — And so I think that that’s always just been a a big value of ours is like the authority of scripture and the Lordship of Christ. And I think that leads to justice. Like, um and so I think it’s just being willing to stand alone. I’ve lost a lot of friendships over this. Not not just friendships. Not like I don’t talk to somebody, but just like colleagues in ministry, because there’s like theologically, like you just believe something that’s different. Like you’ve stepped outside of biblical orthodoxy.Aaron Graham — So I think we have to be, be willing to to stand alone. And i think we’re on the winning side. I think Jesus and justice, I think both those things go together. Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — So I don’t think we’re crazy, but it is hard to hold them together when the political narratives are so forming and deceptive. And so it’s hard. It’s hard for me. I got a lot of flack for my theological positions in this city. but I think, you know, we got to be willing to stand alone.Rich Birch — Yeah. Very cool. Well, I want to, I think this could be a great book, as you were writing it. What were kind of what were you picturing your kind of ideal situation where it would land? Obviously you want lots of people to read it, but to me, I saw it. I was like the, when I, the sneak peek I looked into, I was like, man, this could be a great, I think a really good discussion starter in a leadership team. Are there other environments you think, Hey man, this could be really a great place to, you know, to use this resource.Aaron Graham — Yeah, the the the main person I’m writing to, and I hope a lot of people read it, but the main person is like a 23-year-old that graduates from college that has at least a nominal Christian faith. They have the intention to join a church when they move to the city and land their first job, but they are totally at risk of abandoning their faith unless they make some very clear decisions and are a part of a church that has made some really clear decisions around, we’re not going to believe these lies. We’re going to call them out, and we’re going intentionally disciple you away from being discipled by secular culture and disciple you around the Word of God. Aaron Graham — That’s my hope. You know If anybody that’s deconstructed comes back to faith, praise the Lord. Hallelujah.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s amazing.Aaron Graham — But I’m actually trying to do a prevention so that all the people who are coming to faith right now in this revival, that it falls on good ground. Because we have such a discipleship culture in our churches that is able to name and discern, first, and then name these lies and to help this next generation stand firm in the gospel. And so that’s that’s the subtitle of the the book is how to stand firm in a culture of lies.Aaron Graham — And for so long, we were trained in the church as church leaders to evangelize people who were like spiritually kind of curious and open, like kind of the seeker sensitive movement. That’s how like international, but I grew up as a missionary kid. So it’s like, we were trained to like share the gospel with people who like just needed to hear that there’s one God and that he loves you and that you can have a relationship with him.Aaron Graham — But now we’re trying to evangelize a post-Christian culture, which you know a lot about in Canada. And we’re learning more about here in in North America. And that culture actually is not just like ambivalent towards Christianity. It’s actually anti-Christian faith. Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — They’re trying to evangelize us. And so if we just try to take the same approach where we’re just loving and let me give them a hug, see if they hug back, they’re actually winning. Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Graham — And so so so it’s like, how do we… how do we have a plan to say, you know what, we’re going to love the world. We’re going in the world, but not of the world. But it’s it’s like it’s a whole different, I can use that word on on this, ah the word here on this church leaders podcast. It’s a whole different missiology around how to engage in mission.Aaron Graham — And so, yeah, so I’m hoping that we reach the 20-something and I’m hoping that people talk about this. We wrote this and we have a small group video curriculum coming out as well, because we really want pastors who say, I want this culture in my church to be able to have people do it in groups, discuss it… Rich Birch — That’s great. Aaron Graham — …and be able to make these commitments before it becomes an even greater problem in our churches.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s a really vivid picture of, like you say, the 23 year old who’s moving to the city, um you know, who has some faith, but is is maybe at risk, I think is ah is ah is a vivid picture for all of us. And I would share, you didn’t actually say it this way, but I would share some concern with the swell towards faith. I don’t, who am I? Like the, obviously it’s an amazing thing that’s going on. Lots of people are taking steps toward Jesus. I’m not going to be the guy that’s like, that’s bad.Rich Birch — But I would say I’m concerned that we are a good steward of this moment, that it’s like, man, I have been waiting my entire ministry career for this to happen.Aaron Graham — Yeah.Rich Birch — And now, gosh, let’s not drop the ball. And I think your book could be a part of helping us think through and helping leaders and individuals think through this. So the name of the book is Unshakable Faith. And again, you said that: How to stand firm in a culture of lies. Where can people, look at that? There’s a shot of it. There’s got a beautiful front on. It’s very hip. I’m assuming we can get it at Amazon. Are there other places we should go to get copies of this?Aaron Graham — Everywhere books are sold so um if you go to aarongrahamDC.com—just my name aarongrahamDC (double meaning for District Church and DC of the the city of DC) aarongrahamDC.com —and then you’ll see the links to all the retailers on there, including Amazon, but all the different retailers Christianbook, Books-a-million, Barnes and Noble, all that. And so, yeah, you can you can grab a copy there, and we’d love to hear from you as well. You you can have a place where you can contact me on there.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s great. Perfect. We’ll put links to all of that in the show notes. And friends, like I say, if you’re a long-term listener, you know, we don’t actually typically have a lot of authors on, but I wanted to have Aaron on because I do think this is particularly poignant for us, I think, in in today’s culture. And I think it could be a thing that could really help your team, help, you know, people at your church, I think could be ah a really great resource for that. Rich Birch — As we wrap up today’s episode, any kind of final words you’d have for a church leader that’s wrestling in, that’s wrestling with these issues today is, is maybe feeling some of this tension around, you know, feeling compromised at the door kind of thing. Help us, help us as we wrap up today.Aaron Graham — Yeah, well, first off, just thanks for having me on and having me back, you know, as a repeat guest. That’s awesome. I love what you’re doing. Like I said, I learned so much from you. Some practical stuff is so great to hear all the different speakers that come on and and leaders. Aaron Graham — But yeah, no, I think the the the message that I want leaders church leaders to hear is that if you don’t run to this problem around what’s happening in our culture and how it’s affecting discipleship, this problem will get worse. And, and I think that one of the the challenges for me being in the belly of the beast in the heart of DC, I’m not just like DC, like, so I’m like in the heart with all these national leaders, very educated people, is that it’s sort of like a signal, kind of like downtown New York city is as well. It’s like a signal of where culture is going.Aaron Graham — And so if, if you don’t lean towards this conversation and learn, this problem will only grow in your church. And so while it might be uncomfortable for some of you based on, like if you’re like me and you’re wired as like a harmony person, like I don’t want to have disagreements on my staff or with my board or in my family conversation, like it will only get bigger and worse. So lean in and and take advantage of of resources from people who are writing about this, who have thought about it. And don’t be alone in this. Don’t try to be isolated in this conversation because there’s a lot of people who, even though you might feel alone where you’re pastoring or where you’re leading, there’s a lot of people who feel the same way you are. And so, so get connected in, in with them. So, so that’s, that’s what I’d say.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Aaron. Give us that website again where we want to send people to if they want to connect more directly with you or with the church.Aaron Graham — Yeah, just aarongrahamDC.com. And that’ll also link to our church website, districtchurch.org. And we’d love to have people visit us when you’re in DC, because like you said, DC is a fun city.Rich Birch — Love it. It is a fun city.Aaron Graham — It’s one of the best cities to 250th anniversary of DC. Lots of celebrations happening this year. Rich Birch — Yes, that’s true. Aaron Graham — So come in and see us. Rich Birch — It’ll be a big year. That’s great. Thanks so much. Appreciate being here today, sir. And we’ll have you back on sometime soon. Thanks for coming.Aaron Graham — Awesome. Thanks, Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dr. Derwin L. Gray, co-founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church. Since launching in 2010, Transformation Church has become a multi-ethnic, multi-generational movement impacting thousands locally and globally. In this conversation, Derwin tackles one of the most pressing—and often avoided—questions facing church leaders today: what are we actually multiplying? Are we forming disciples of Jesus—or unintentionally shaping people more through culture, politics, and media than through the gospel? Derwin challenges leaders to examine the deeper currents shaping their churches and to recover a bold, Christ-centered vision for discipleship. What are we actually multiplying? // Derwin raises a provocative concern: many churches are focused on growth, expansion, and multiplication—but not always clear on what is being multiplied. Are we producing disciples rooted in the gospel, or consumers attracted to experiences? He warns that without intentional focus, churches can unintentionally replicate shallow faith, cultural Christianity, or even ideological distortion. The goal of multiplication must not simply be more campuses or larger attendance, but deeper, more faithful discipleship. A discipleship crisis beneath the surface. // The issue isn't that churches lack discipleship. It's that many people are being discipled by the wrong influences. Social media, political ideologies, and cultural narratives are shaping beliefs and behaviors, often more powerfully than Scripture. This creates a “wrong discipleship” problem, where people identify as Christians but reflect values that are inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus. The challenge for leaders is to re-center discipleship around Christ, ensuring that people are being formed by the gospel rather than the surrounding culture. The danger of ideological captivity. // Derwin speaks candidly about the ways the church can become entangled in political ideologies—whether on the right or the left. He specifically critiques the rise of Christian nationalism, defining it as the fusion of the church's identity with the identity of a nation-state. This, he argues, distorts the gospel by elevating political allegiance above allegiance to Christ. At the same time, he acknowledges the influence of secular progressivism. Both extremes, in different ways, can pull believers away from the centrality of Jesus. The call is not to disengage from society, but to engage from a distinctly gospel-centered perspective. Recovering a gospel-shaped identity. // At the heart of Derwin's message is a call to rediscover what it means to be shaped by the gospel. The good news of Jesus is not merely about individual salvation—it creates a new family across ethnic, cultural, and social lines. This vision is central to Transformation Church's identity as a multi-ethnic community. Derwin emphasizes that the gospel reconciles not only vertically (between people and God), but horizontally (between people and one another). When churches lose this vision, they lose their witness in a divided world. Courageous and compassionate leadership. // Leading in this cultural moment requires what Derwin calls “courageous compassion.” Pastors must be willing to speak truth clearly while loving people deeply. This means addressing difficult issues without fear of losing people, while also avoiding harsh or divisive rhetoric. Derwin acknowledges that this approach can lead to criticism from multiple sides, but he emphasizes that faithfulness to Christ must take priority over maintaining comfort or approval. Practical steps for leaders. // For pastors who feel their churches have been shaped more by culture than by Christ, Derwin offers simple but powerful starting points: pray, repent, and refocus on the gospel. He encourages leaders to equip themselves through study and to guide their teams in rediscovering a biblical framework for discipleship. Most importantly, leaders must model what they teach, demonstrating lives rooted in Christ rather than captured by cultural narratives. A renewed vision for the church. // Ultimately, Derwin calls the church back to its prophetic voice. The church is not meant to mirror the divisions of the world but to offer a compelling alternative: a community shaped by love, unity, and truth. When the church remains rooted in Jesus, it becomes a powerful witness to a watching world. To learn more about Transformation Church and Dr. Derwin L. Gray, his teaching, and resources, visit transformationchurch.tc and derwinlgray.com. Plus, pre-order his book, It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, so glad that you decided to tune in to today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to this. I had a fragment of a conversation with a dear friend at the Exponential Conference and I want to have more of that today with you listening in. And this is a conversation that I know is impacting people. I think 100% of our church is in the country today. It’s something that we all are seeing. It’s impacting us. We’ve got to be thinking about this. Rich Birch — Honored to have Dr. Derwin Gray with us, incredible leader from Transformation Church. He and his wife, Vicki, co-founded the church in 2010. It’s a multi-ethnic, multi-generational, mission-shaped community community with two locations in South Carolina, as well as Church Online. He’s an award-winning author of multiple books. He’s been on the podcast in the past and is one of the people who, he’s called me out on the podcast before, and I have taken those lessons with me. And so I’m I'm hoping that happens with you today. Derwin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Hey, man, thank you. So good to be with you.Rich Birch — No, it’s it’s honest. You know, been multiple times you’ve been on the show and I I’ve walked away being like, man, okay, Derwin just, he’s just pushed me and and got me to think different, which I really appreciate that. So for folks that don’t know about Transformation, kind of tell us a little bit about the church and give us the context you’re in, that sort of thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So ah my wife and I co-planted Transformation Church in 2010 in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. And so neither my wife and nor I grew up in church, and both of us came to faith in our mid to late 20s, and primarily through people at work. There was a woman at my wife’s job who shared Christ with her. I had a teammate named Steve Grant, with the Indianapolis Colts, where I played in the NFL. We called him the naked preacher because after practice, he’d dry off, take a shower, wrap a towel around his waist, and he’d share the gospel. And over five years, I came to faith. My wife came to faith before me. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And all we knew was this. If Jesus is this incredible, this forgiving, this gracious, this is the greatest news there is in the world. And so we didn’t know what words like evangelism and discipleship meant. All we knew was this. I want to know him. I want to make him known. I want to know his word.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so that was in 1997, 1998. We moved to Charlotte, North Carolina to play for the Carolina Panthers, and I got injured. And so all I could do was read my Bible, rehab my knee. And the following year, both my wife and I said, you know what? I think my NFL time is done.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — What are we going to do? We don’t know. So I got an invitation to speak at a youth event to share my testimony. And I said, well, what is that? They were like, a testimony is where you share your story of how you met Christ and what what took place. So I did that. People started calling me.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And in 1999, other Christians says, you guys need a nonprofit organization. You know, we’re like, what does that mean? So we started a ministry called One Heart at a Time. I would travel and speak. She would organize everything. We served at our church. Well, the longer we did that, we saw incredible fruit, but we also saw that wherever I would preach, it was ethnically segregated. It was it was really weird, right?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’m like, wait a second. America is integrated, but the church is basically segregated. And so I began to ask questions and I got lousy answers. But as we read the Bible, it was like the early church was Jews and Gentiles. That’s what it was. It was a multi-ethnic church. Jesus not only forgave sins, but he created a family with different colored skins. Not only is that the future of the church in Revelation 7:9, but that’s the present reality of the church that intrinsic to the gospel is ethnic reconciliation. What good would it be Jesus forgives you but don’t love your brother and sister? So the cross is vertical and horizontal. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we were frustrated. And then we just sense God say, well, you can criticize or you can create. And so ultimately that led to planting Transformation Church in the south area of Charlotte, North Carolina, where actually physically in what’s called Indian Land, South Carolina, and our other campus is in Lake Wiley, South Carolina, but it’s really the greater Charlotte area.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And our church is more ethnically diverse than our community. And I want to be very, very clear. One of the reasons why we are ethnically diverse is because of the good news of Jesus. Like I explained, Jesus not only forgives sins, but he creates a family with different colored skins. And so for us, ethnic unity in Christ not only enhances our discipleship, but it enhances our witness to a looking and watching world which is filled with so much division. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And over the last 16 years, God has done miraculous things. We’ve seen 9,000 people come to faith, thousands be baptized. God has given us massive influence. We also have what’s called the Multi-Ethnic Church Roundtable, where we’ve equipped 800 leaders from around the world to do gospel-centered multi-ethnic ministry. We’re also in the process, Leon’s Crump and I, of launching what’s called the Promise Collective, which is going to be an intentionally multi-ethnic gospel-centered church planting network.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So a lot of wonderful things are taking place. And we think it’s pretty cool that God planted us in the state of South Carolina where the first shots of the Civil War were fired. And God has used this church here to influence not only the church in America, but even around the world. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we’re grateful.Rich Birch — Well, I, yeah, there’s I respect you on so many levels. And, and, you know, they these issues around being a multi-ethnic church are, you know, at the core of that. And just to respect you on for lots of what you’ve done. and And we ended up at this in this conversation, just to kind of bring everybody up to speed, we ended up in this conversation at Exponential that I leaned forward as just declaring my, ah you know, a little bit about me for folks that are listening in. So I am Canadian, don’t hold it against me.Rich Birch — But I’ve served mostly American churches in the churches I work with. And most of the 95% of the listeners of this podcast are in the States. I was in the States for a bunch of years. And that may become a little more obvious as we’re talking here why that’s why I’m talking about that context. But one of the things in this conversation that I heard you, the question you asked, which made me lean forward and then where it kind of unfolded from there is you asked the question, what are we actually multiplying? Exponential is obviously the global conference for multiplication, but you were pushing us to think about what are we actually multiplying? What is the the core of that? Can you unpack that for us?What were you thinking of when we started talking about that that day?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, sure, sure. Just to provide either even a little bit more context is it was a gathering of of very large churches. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And the question is what’s going well, what’s not going well? And so typically in those types of rooms, I like to listen. And so as I was listening, I was hearing no disrespect, but a lot of the same.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so I kind of waited for everybody to to finish what they were saying. And I said, here’s something that Transformation Church does well, is we are equipping our people to stand against secular progressivism and Christian nationalism. And I said, what are we exactly multiplying? Because the state of the church the United States America is not good. It’s not healthy. It is divided. In many cases, it is it’s mean. Shallow theology, not loving our neighbors as God commands us to be loved. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So so my question was, are we just putting up more boxes for consumers to come in and consume because we have good music, good human-centered preaching. You know, we’re not going to mess with your idols. We’re not going to topple your idols at all. And yeah, you can invite your friends when we get more campuses. Because if that’s just what we’re doing, don’t sign me up for that. I don’t I don’t I don’t want any parts of that. That’s how we got to where we are now. And so you as a Canadian, here in America, the witness of the church is not very good. Like when I talk to people who are unbelievers, I have to untangle…Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …politics from the gospel because unfortunately there’s been an unholy wedding, particularly on the far right with aspects of Christianity, which has distorted and deformed. I think the secular progressivism is pretty easy to see, but I think the Christian nationalism is a lot harder. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Now, let me define what I mean by that. So first of all, Loving your country is a good thing. That’s called loving your neighbors. You love yourself. So my fourth grandfather, Moses Davis, fought for the Union, the colored cavalry of Virginia… Rich Birch — Wow. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …against the treasonous Confederate whatever it was. So in my blood is patriotism for my nation. America’s my home. But to love my neighbors, I love myself means not only do love America, but I love the entire world. And then as a Christian, we have a global body that we love. There are more followers of Jesus of color outside of America than the United States of America.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Now, what do I mean by Christian nationalism? This is what I mean. Christian nationalism is the attempt to fuse the identity and mission of the church with the identity and power of a nation state, treating the nation as a primary vehicle of God’s purposes rather than seeing God’s kingdom as a global Jesus-centered reality that transcends all nations.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — By that definition, Christian nationalism is a heresy. Because it basically says, if you don’t think like us, you can’t be a follower of Jesus. And so you’re adding to the works of Christ. And so Christian nationalism has infiltrated much of what I would say the majority culture, Caucasian church in America. Not all, but a lot. Where Christians, what what it means to follow Jesus has turned into a far right, almost authoritarianism versus, no, no, you have the right to vote in the United States of America. But as Christians, we don’t have a right to idolize nor demonize those who vote differently than us.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’m not sure Americans know this, but most people in the world are not Republican or Democrat. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So if you say your faith is based on what you vote for, you’re adding to the work of Christ.Rich Birch — So, so Derwin, I appreciate you. So I’ve not heard a lot of people talk about this. This seems to be, I don’t know, it seems like something happened post COVID and the church in general, there was this like shakeup in the church in general where, you know, lots of people ended up in different places and it was like, we’ve become more divided than ever before. And I do think that there’s a significant dividing line at or close to what you’re talking about here, that it’s like, there’s a, there’s a new voice around Christian nationalism that seems to be gaining influence. Is that, is that, is that ah a false perception or is that the way you see it as well?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — No, you are 100% right. And it is a well-orchestrated, well-funded plan. With social media and the rise of social media influencers, paid propagandists can go on and infuse their propaganda into people immediately.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And here’s and here’s the thing. Populism does not require much intellect. All it requires is somebody to be angry at who’s taking from you. So the more divided we are as people, the more the oligarchs have power and the money that they make.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — They own the social media. They own the algorithms. I mean, for goodness sakes, Elon Musk promised people a million dollars to vote in Pennsylvania for the election. How is that even legal? Right. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So people are being inundated. Like we have family members that don’t even talk to each other anymore because they have red hat or a blue shirt, right? And so it has been in increasingly effective. But here’s the thing, Rich, that’s so wild to me. The admin the the Trump administration greenlit the FDA approval of an abortion pill. And I don’t hear any evangelical saying anything about it.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And even when you look at the Supreme Court now saying states can choose whether you do abortion or not, that’s pro-choice. You know, what used to be the Republican Party, small government, family values, those things are way gone. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so not only has Christian nationalism changed like, or not only has this current administration changed what the Republican Party was, but in many cases, it’s changed even so much of the church. And it is wild to listen to people in 2016 who said one thing, who say a totally different thing now.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — It’s hard.Rich Birch — Well, yeah. And I so I think the thing you’ve, you’re putting a finger on and it’s, I appreciate you being willing to talk about and unpack it is there’s definitely like a broader cultural conversation that’s happening around these issues. That is for sure. We’re seeing that. And that’s having an impact on our ability to disciple the people in our churches or our people are being discipled by social media, by the algorithm, by YouTube And that can create or is creating a discipleship crisis in many of our churches. How do you try to find the line between those two to say, hey, we’re going to talk about the discipleship stuff… Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah. Rich Birch — …without getting dragged in on the you know the exterior? How do we how do we draw those lines in a way that makes sense?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so what I would say is we don’t have a discipleship problem. We have a wrong discipleship problem. Rich Birch — Okay, that’s good. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Because somebody is making students out of somebody.Rich Birch — Right, sure.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so are we becoming students of Jesus? that’s That’s the issue. And so what I say is this, how a person votes, that’s their conscience. But how do you treat the people who don’t vote like you? Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So for example, research shows black Americans are more socially conservative, more biblically committed than white Americans. But 90%, I’m sorry, but black American Christians, but black American Christians, 90% vote for Democrats. So how can you be more socially conservative, more biblically committed, but you vote for Democrat?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Well, because they don’t take everything that’s in the Democratic Party, just like most people who voted for Trump don’t take everything with him. And so we have to give each other the latitude and the grace. And there’s also pro-life Democrats. And not everybody who voted for Trump is evil. Not everybody who votes Democrat is evil. But the powers that be want us divided. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And when I and when I talk to my friends from Canada, when I talk to my friends that are pastors from around the world, Norway, different parts of Europe, Australia, England, and they’re going, what has happened to you guys?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I can tell you what’s what’s taken place is our faith is being distorted and driving it is fear and hatred.Rich Birch — Yeah. So I would echo that. The joke I’ve made, both with American leaders and leaders from other parts of the world, is there is a segment of the body of Christ that seems very angry about the love of God. Like they’re and they’re very fearful. Like it’s all it’s all anger and fear driven. And I don’t know whether, and it probably is related to the algorithms, but like we’re hearing from these people so much more than, than we used to. It used to be an echo chamber of people that lived in so much fear, but now it’s just out there. It seems to be in, in our, you know, in our feeds all the time.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, what used to be on the fringes is now on the main street, right? And so we need to re-gospel ourselves. We need a greater commitment to Christ. So, for example, life in the womb is precious and sacred. That’s not conservative. That’s gospel. That’s biblical.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Caring for the dignity of undocumented people in America is not liberal. That’s gospel. Wanting border control is not conservative. That is understanding that a nation has to have borders to flourish. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Believing that marriage is between a man and a woman, we believe that’s biblical. But loving and respecting LGBTQ people is not liberal. Loving my neighbors as I love myself. And if I have any hope of anybody ah coming to Jesus, they’re not going come to Jesus because I’m yelling at them and I’m angry. I’m going to love them and pursue them just like we’ve done here at our church.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so I feel like what we’ve done in in in the church is we’ve taken a 250 year old country called America. And then specifically the last 10 years, we’ve made that the hermeneutic to understand the gospel.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — We’ve made that the lenses that we look through to determine the gospel. Whereas what I’m saying, let’s go back to the text. Let’s go back to the early church, the book of Acts, Paul’s letters, the gospels. That’s where our faith comes from. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Like I have lobbied on Capitol Hill with Republicans and Democrats about immigration reform. We need border security, but we can also secure the dignity of human beings, especially human beings who are undocumented and don’t have a record against them. Right. So there has to be a process to have strong borders, but also to hold to people’s hearts.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — But but at the end of the day, right at the end of the day, we are people of the Lamb, not the elephant or the donkey.Rich Birch — So good. So good. So what’s the hardest part about leading in a church that really refuses to be captured by either side? I feel like there’s pressure on from both political parties to they, you know, I think somewhere along the line, they realize, wow, there’s a lot of power in these churches. And how do we you know, how do we kind of infiltrate or how do we gain that? What’s it like to lead a church that’s trying to, that’s refusing to be captured by both sides is wants to keep Jesus ahead. What does that cost? How is that, you know, what are some of the pressures of that? What have been some telltale signs for you as you’ve led at Transformation in this front?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, um i would i would I would say, Rich, sometimes I’ll get a critical email and a eventually those people will leave. But but but but for the most part, I mean, we’re 16 years in, it’s our ethos, it’s our character. People know who we are. They know why we are. And so like we’re flourishing, we’re growing. It’s beautiful. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — There’s a matter of fact, I got some messages earlier today just saying, hey, thank you. Like I was just about done with Christianity and I found Transformation Church, right? I mean, this Jesus, you’re this is what I want to be a part of. So I think respecting and loving all people, even though you disagree with them. And the thing that I said, I did a series in 2024 in the fall before the election on on the Beatitudes.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And my whole thing was how you vote is up to your conscious. How you treat people is not up for debate. We’re called to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. And so in our church, I’m sure we got people all over the political spectrum. I’m a registered independent myself.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — But something that I think really landed well with our people is this: 99.9% of all followers of Jesus for 2,000 years and even now have never voted Republican and have never voted Democrat.Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Our faith is in Christ and Christ alone. And America is what’s called a constitutional republic democracy. It is not a theocracy. It is governed by a constitution, not the Bible. And so, yes, I want believers in place not to do some kind of spiritual Sharia law, but to make sure that the Constitution is upheld, which gives life and liberty and justice, not for some, but for all.Rich Birch — What would you say, you know, I’ve often thought around this, these, this issue and we’re kind of related issues. I have to think back to Billy Graham and I think like, man, we don’t know what, don’t what he’d be doing today. Like what would, I’ve heard this story that and in the fifties he gathered a group of what at the time, they you know they self afflicted they gave themselves the title of fundamentalist and they said, hey, we gotta stop calling ourselves fundamentalist because that word is so loaded in our culture. It feels like evangelical is like that today. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah.Rich Birch — It is when people ask me, are you evangelical? I’ll say, well, it depends on what you mean by evangelical because it has so much freight behind it. Do you think there is a place for kind of a broader discussion? How, how can we continue to try to create a middle here that where people can actually try to shed these, like you say, the Lamb and the donkey and, or the, the, the elephant and the donkey and, and focus on the Lamb. How do we do that going forward? How do we create those kinds of places where those kinds of conversations can continue to happen?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, you know, so let me answer the first question first is when I preached in Norway a few years ago, the people said, thank you for being so evangelical. And it had nothing to do with politics. So the term evangelical comes from the Greek word, which means good news. So it’s never meant to be a political voting block. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — It’s never meant to be an ethnicity. It is good news people. So in Europe, I say I’m evangelical because it goes well. Here in America, I say I am shaped by the gospel. I’m a Christian that’s shaped by the gospel. Rich Birch — That’s good language.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I love God and I love my neighbors. I love myself. So I think we have a fundamental gospel problem in the American church. If you simply think the good news is Jesus died for your sins, now you don’t go to hell, then your discipleship is going to be very reductionistic. It’s going to be very individualistic.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, his ascension and then sending the Spirit, is not only do we spend eternity with him, but as brothers and sisters, we’re equally righteous, equally redeemed, equally the temple of the Holy Spirit, equally God’s children. So if all those things are true equally, then by definition, we are the body of Christ. So if you hurt, then I hurt, but we don’t think that way.Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we have to change the way we think. Paul says in Philippians 2.3, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but consider others better than yourselves. Verse five is “for you have the mind of Christ”. And so what we’ve been able to do here at Transformation Church is really move people deeper to the gospel. If you listen to one of my messages, you will hear gospel. That’s why we are the way we are. And the gospel challenges idols.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — When President Obama was president, I would get emails, “Oh you must be a Republican.” And then when President Trump, “You must be a Democrat.” I’m like, no, I’m an independent, but I’m called to be prophetic and to equip us to not be captivated by the zeitgeist…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …the spirit of the age. When the church loses her prophetic witness, we’ve lost everything.Rich Birch — That’s good.Rich Birch — Yeah, that that that names something that you put a finger on there, on something that I’d love you to unpack a little bit more. How do you do that as a pastor? Because I’ve seen you do that consistently. It’s like, how how do we be that prophetic voice, speak with clarity to ultimately point people back to Jesus, not be captured by just the winds of the day?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Be courageously compassionate. Rich Birch — That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Be courageously compassionate. I believe, you know, so I have, I have, I have talked to pastors who lead churches that may be, you know, center a little bit left. And well, if I talk about this issue too much, people may leave. Then I’ve heard other people like, well, if I talk about about this, the MAGA people may leave. And it’s like, well, Are you concerned about people leaving or are you concerned about honoring the call that God has given you? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And one day you have to face him and you’re going to say, well, you know, what Lord, I was afraid people were going to leave. Like you can be courageous and compassionate simultaneously.Rich Birch — That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So I, there are people on both sides of the aisle that passionately and deeply love Jesus, but have different perspectives politically. Now, Christian nationalism, that is a whole different species that that has to be lovingly challenged. And my job at Transformation Church is to equip our people and to be a shepherd because there are false prophets and wolves that are coming.Rich Birch — There’s a ton here. I really appreciate that. For a pastor that’s listening in today that’s thinking, man, I look at my people and I think maybe I they have been discipled more by cable news than by scripture. And I maybe haven’t done everything I could could have done. I haven’t been clear with compassion. I’ve just been, I’ve just kind of let this happen. What would you say some of the first steps that you would say for a for a leader like that?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, pray, repent, pray, repent. Take your elders and your staff through a book by Preston Sprinkle called “Exiles in Babylon” or the book by Michael Byrd and N.T. Wright. Both of them deal with you know how to be a faithful witness in this time of political division. But before you go out and share, make sure that you are equipped. But also choose not to be partisan.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Rich, the Epstein Files is one of the biggest cover-ups in American history. We’re talking about precious kids who were taking advantage of. And I mean, where is the prophetic voice that this is wrong, regardless of who’s in it? This is wrong and it demands justice. We as God’s people are going to be held accountable to equip this. Like, this is serious. Like, I’ve heard people say, well, there’s bigger problems in the world. No, there’s not.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Derwin, this has been fantastic. I want to point people towards, you’ve got a new book that’s coming out. That’s like like a huge left-hand turn here, but just looking at it, I think this could is is connected, obviously, to what we’re talking about in today’s conversation. It comes out this fall.Rich Birch — It’s called it’s a time or “It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered”. Tell us a little bit about this book, and I and I want to get people to you know actually pre-order this thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So basically the last seven years, what I have seen from followers of Christ is we’re the walking wounded. We are, we are just stuck. We have allowed our traumas, our histories, our pains, our failures, the way we’ve been hurt to keep us in a position of hurt. And we’ve just circled and circled. And then, a lot of preaching deals with behavior modification and doesn’t get to the root. And so I’ve just been like, you know what, God, I want to help God’s people. Right. And it starts with helping myself.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And what I do is I really take a theology of who we are in Christ. I take neuroscience and psychology and marry them in spiritual formationRich Birch — Love it.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And it’s by far the best book that I’ve ever written. I can’t wait for people to see the endorsements from people like Dr. Daniel Amen, Craig Groeschel, Christine Caine. It’s by far the most important book I’ve ever written and the best book I’ve ever written. And I believe that it can really help people heal. Like really understanding that trauma gets in our nervous system. It’s not just think harder, do more. Like we have to learn how this is embodied inside of us. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so, man, it transformed me writing it. And what I do is I walk the people through an acronym. The the book is in four parts and the acronym HEAL. H stands for honest about what what happened. E, expect hard. A, accept what happened and L, live from love, not for love. And I share some incredible stories in there. And so, yeah, I’m really, really looking forward to people healing.Rich Birch — Well, yeah, I would encourage people to, we’ll link to that in the show notes and all that. But I think it’s connected in that I think I think the extremes on both ends politically, they’ve picked up on kind of the pain in the zeitgeist. And they’ve they’ve said, hey, the solution is is is the other side is the enemy and we got to do something to tear them down. And we know that just won’t work. At the end of the day, it’s Jesus transforming our lives. It’s him restoring us to who we are. And I think this could be a great tool for folks as they’re wrestling with that. So I’m excited for that book to come out. Looking forward to that. And we’ll we’ll link to all that. Rich Birch — Any kind of final words as we wrap up today? I really appreciate you unpacking this a bit more and taking some time to, you know, kind of let us chat a little bit about it.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, two thoughts. Jesus said in Matthew 5:44 and 45, bless those who persecute you. And I said, love your enemies. And then Jesus said, you will know my disciples because they love one another. Refuse to let anger and hatred and division guide you.Rich Birch — That’s good. So good. You said two things. You had two you that and one other thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Well, yeah, it was it was Matthew 5 and you’re on…yeah.Rich Birch — Oh, I see. Right, right, right. Yep. Okay. That’s good. Nice. Where if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Just as we wrap up today’s call conversation.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, just go to derwinlgray.com, derwinlgray.comRich Birch — Nice. That’s great. Dr. Derwin, I just want to honor you. You’re an incredible leader. Thank you for being here today and helping us think through these issues. Thank you.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Thank you, my friend.Rich Birch — Take care.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Appreciate you.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Ronee de Leon, Executive Director of Partner Church Success at TouchPoint Software. With nearly two decades of ministry experience and now serving churches across the country, Ronee brings a unique perspective at the intersection of systems, strategy, and shepherding. Are you relying on attendance and giving numbers to understand your church? Wondering how to actually “see” your people as your church grows more complex? Ronee shares a practical framework for turning data into meaningful ministry action. You can't shepherd what you can't see. // One of the biggest challenges Ronee sees across churches is a lack of visibility. While most churches are passionate about reaching people, many rely on high-level metrics—attendance and giving—that only tell part of the story. As churches grow (especially beyond 300 people), intuitive leadership alone is no longer enough. Leaders can't be in every room, and without deeper insight, they miss critical moments in people's lives. The result is a gap between what leaders think is happening and what's actually happening in people's spiritual journeys. From data to discipleship. // Ronee emphasizes that data itself is not the goal. Rather, discipleship is. The opportunity for churches today is to transform raw data into actionable insight that helps people take meaningful next steps. Instead of just knowing how many people are in groups, leaders should be asking deeper questions: Who is still engaged three weeks in? Who dropped off halfway through? What patterns are emerging in people's participation? These insights reveal where discipleship is thriving and where it's stalling. The four stages of data-driven discipleship. // To help churches think clearly about this process, Ronee outlines a simple framework: conviction, collection, clarity, and care. Conviction asks whether leaders truly believe data collection matters enough to prioritize it. Collection focuses on consistently gathering meaningful data, not just sporadically. Clarity is the ability to interpret that data, moving from information to insight. And finally, care is where action happens – using those insights to connect with people and shepherd them effectively. Every church, she notes, is somewhere along this progression. Where most churches get stuck. // Many churches struggle in the gap between collection and clarity. They gather data but don't translate it into meaningful action. Data becomes a warehouse rather than a tool. The shift happens when leaders move from asking “What happened?” to “What does this mean and what should we do next?” This requires intentional conversations, regular review rhythms, and a willingness to engage with the data rather than ignore it. Drifting is the key moment to watch. // One of the most important indicators Ronee highlights is disengagement. When people begin to drift—missing groups, serving less, or disengaging from community—it often signals deeper issues. Behind that drift could be doubt, divorce, depression, diagnosis, or financial stress. Without visibility, churches miss the opportunity to respond. But with the right systems in place, leaders can proactively reach out, offering care at the exact moment it's needed most. From surveillance to stewardship. // Data collection isn’t surveillance, but rather stewardship. When used correctly, data enables pastors and leaders to care for people more effectively. A simple phone call or conversation, prompted by data, can change someone's trajectory. Ronee shares examples of pastors identifying disengaged individuals, reaching out, and discovering significant life challenges—leading to holistic care that addresses spiritual, emotional, and practical needs. Culture matters more than tools. // While technology plays an important role, culture is the starting point. Churches must first align around why data matters. Without that shared conviction, systems will fail regardless of how advanced they are. Teams need clarity, support, and accountability to consistently engage with data. Leaders must normalize conversations about it by reviewing insights in meetings, celebrating wins, and integrating it into everyday ministry rhythms. Measuring what really matters. // One of the most important shifts happening today is moving beyond weekend attendance as the primary measure of health. Many churches are discovering they are actually ministering to two to three times more people than their weekend numbers suggest. This broader view changes how leaders think about staffing, engagement, and discipleship pathways. It also raises a deeper question: are we promoting participation, or are we cultivating transformation? To learn more about TouchPoint Software and access the free church health assessment, visit touchpointsoftware.com/unseminary. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, we say here at the podcast that it’s like stuff you wish they taught in seminary. And 100% know that today’s topic is one of those that they’re not talking about in seminary, but for particularly my executive pastors, senior leader type people that are listening in, you think about this almost every single day. And your team interacts with it multiple times a day. And it’s something you’re gonna wanna lean in on for an incredible conversation today with Ronee de Leon. She is the Executive Director of Partner Church Success at TouchPoint Software. If you do not know who TouchPoint Software is, you have been living under a rock. It’s a church management and engagement platform that serves churches across the country. She brings over 18 years of experience working in and alongside ministry, combining strategic systems, thinking with a deep heart for shepherding. TouchPoint, this is an incredible organization, has a mission for helping churches transform their data into discipleship, and they really talk a lot about engagement. And so we really want to dive in with this today. Ronee, thanks for being here. Thanks for being on the show.Ronee de Leon — It’s my pleasure. It’s great to be back, Rich. Thank you.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good to have you back on. Slightly different context, but same kind of conversations, but glad to have you back on. Why don’t you bring us up to speed? Tell us a little bit about the Ronee story and tell us a little bit about TouchPoint. How’s all that work together?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I have been on a journey. Anybody following the Lord, I feel like is on a fun adventure with Jesus. And I have definitely felt that in the last couple of years. I’ve been at TouchPoint for a little less than two years. But before that, I was at a large multi-site mega church based in Columbus, Ohio, and just grateful for the way that the Lord pivots us in our journey when it’s time. And so I had the opportunity to move from serving one church to lots and lots of churches across the country. And I just, it’s such a privilege to serve the bride of Christ in the way that we do at TouchPoint, like you said, through technology, but it’s so much more than that.Rich Birch — Yeah. and I want to take advantage, friends, I want to take advantage of the with the fact that Ronnie’s here. You see churches across the country. You’re working with churches across the country. You have a great experience. And friends, if you’re listening in today and you’re like, oh, like we already have a system like this, I want you to listen in because we’re not we’re not here to sell you on anything. We want to have a bigger conversation, ask some bigger questions, to help you wrestle with and think about this issue, but frankly, to take advantage of your position TouchPoint because you see so much. Rich Birch — When you think about the landscape of churches, when they’re looking at, you know, particularly the leaders, we’re thinking about executive pastor type person, when they come to actually knowing their people, where are their people are at at their church, Where what does a landscape look like for us on that front? How do we know kind of the people in our church? How do we get a sense of who are they? What are they do and how are they engaging with us?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I love the church, Rich. I recently have been kind of working through the language with the Lord of, I think the calling on my life is to be the best maid of honor to the bride of Christ that I can be. So it’s such a unique vantage point… Rich Birch — I love that. Ronee de Leon — …at TouchPoint serving churches all over the country, like you said. The church has a lot of passion and we’re doing a lot to reach people. But some things that I see are that we still have visibility gaps and why that matters is because churches cannot shepherd what they cannot see.Rich Birch — So true.Ronee de Leon — And so we we’ve got a lot of people in our care, but if we’re just taking ministry snapshots instead of understanding meaningful steps as people take their discipleship journey, we’re still struggling with visibility into what’s actually happening in our church.Rich Birch — Wow, I’m looking forward to digging into that. I know many of us, ah you know, I like to call it the nickels and noses issue. Like we know, in fact, probably 100% of the pastors that are listening in today, they know how many people attended last weekend. And they probably know generally where things are at on the revenue side, particularly, hopefully on the expense side too. But that’s just a really high level, maybe not that helpful, if I hear what you’re saying. Where does the picture start to break down when all we see is these two? If if if we’re just looking at these two numbers, how does that kind of limit our ability? I like that, you know, to see our people, to ultimately disciple them.Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I would say there is a ton of opportunity to transform data into discipleship. And when we stay high level, we’re missing the opportunities that double clicking into those things would allow us.Ronee de Leon — Like you said, with an attendance example, we know how many people are in groups. Sometimes that’s roster based. Churches really are getting into this might know what their retention rate is, you know how many people actually are staying in groups over the course of the season. But like if we keep clicking and keep drilling into this, there is the ability for us to understand as people are engaging in these groups and disengaging from these groups. Ronee de Leon — You know, who’s still connected. three weeks into the season, six weeks into the season, 12 weeks into the season, and who’s not? And why did they fall off? And so there is a high level view that’s helpful year over year, season to season. But again, we’re missing a lot of discipleship opportunities by not drilling down into this to kind of these personal levels.Rich Birch — Yeah, well and I can imagine as particularly as our churches grow, I think ah there’s a lot of leaders in the church that are like really intuitive leaders and they like to kind of like get in a room and like, I can feel this thing. I just know how it’s going. But as the church grows and becomes you know, more complex, that’s harder to do. You can’t, you just can’t, you can’t get in all the rooms. There’s, there’s, you can’t be in more than one place at once. If you have multiple locations, you can’t do that. And so how, as that happens, what are the kind of maybe questions that you see leaders asking that that doesn’t work anymore though? They can’t get answers out of that. They want answers for that, but they just can’t get it. What, what are those? Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I would say, Rich, intuition is God-given…Rich Birch — Right. Ronee de Leon — …but feelings are fleeting, right? Rich Birch — So true.Ronee de Leon — I’m a big believer in facts are our friends. So we’ve we’ve got to have the data and make data-driven decisions. But I think the questions that leaders are are trying to answer that sometimes they can’t with those feelings. In my experience, it feels like the breaking point of visibility is around like that 300 mark. If your church is growing to or above around 300, your, your staff’s eyes just can’t see everything anymore on a weekend.Ronee de Leon — And so the questions that I think we want to answer that we, we lose visibility to as we grow and bigger churches obviously suffer from this as well, but we want to know who’s new. We want to know who’s stalling in their discipleship journey. We want to know who needs care, who’s drifting. And, that’s the part, Rich, that I think is is really important. Because when people are drifting from something that they were previously engaged in, it’s probably the things of life that they’re going through that we, the church, are responsible for caring for them and connecting with them, shepherding through.Ronee de Leon — You know it’s it’s a bunch of Ds, Rich. It’s doubt. It’s divorce. It’s depression. It’s diagnosis. It’s economic duress. It’s disgruntlement. It’s distraction. It’s all of these things that we can’t see if we’re not double clicking. But but we want to know who’s drifting. We want to know who needs care and we want to show up in a timely mannerRich Birch — Okay, that’s fantastic. I love the D list as well. Good, great preacher. Lots of Ds there. I love it. So let’s double click another D on this this. I know you have a framework to help churches wrestle through this, to to actually you know get beyond just these kind of high level to undersee, both see these people and understand them, move them along. Do you want to kind of talk us through this framework? Give us a high level over and then maybe we’ll kind of dive into pieces of it.Ronee de Leon — Yeah, let’s alliterate some more. Rich Birch — Love it.Ronee de Leon — Like I said, I was on church staff for a long time. Rich Birch — Yes, exactly. Ronee de Leon — It feels like it’s more memorable, right? Rich Birch — Yes.Ronee de Leon — So um this is a really simple framework that really is more stages. It’s a progression. But even though it’s simple, whether they know it or not, every church is in one of these stages when it comes to data-driven discipleship.Ronee de Leon — And so four kind of C’s of this or stages are conviction, collection, clarity, and care. And I’ll just give a brief description of each of those…Rich Birch — Yeah. Ronee de Leon — …and then we can go dive in a little bit deeper.Ronee de Leon — But conviction, really the question that we’re answering here is, do you truly believe this matters even when it’s not easy? So leaders believe that shepherding is important, but do we want to move into doing it proactively? And are we comfortable using data as a tool to do that well? So that’s kind of the conviction piece. Do you really believe that this matters?Rich Birch — Yep.Ronee de Leon — Collection then, are you committed to consistently gathering the data that’s needed? Not just once, but as a rhythm. It’s hard work, but it is a worthy cause, a valiant effort.Ronee de Leon — Let’s move to clarity real quick. Rich Birch — Yep.Ronee de Leon — Again, the question we’re answering is, now that you have the data, do you have the insight? Do you really see what it’s telling you and what are we doing with it? Ronee de Leon — And then the last one, care, of course, is where we’re acting on the insights to connect with our people. Will you actually act on the insights and shepherd people or will it stay theoretical? That’s that’s kind of where we’re headed with this.Rich Birch — Okay, that makes sense. So again, so that’s conviction, collection, clarity, and care. I’d love to talk about collection a little bit. So I think our churches would love to collect data. And in fact, I know there’s lots of leaders that are listening in that are like, they’re like, yeah, that sounds right. I would love to get more data. I’m just not sure how to do that. How do we build a system for collecting that data, for getting, you know, even the things you talked about, people dropping out of groups, you know, not just people rostering, but like, how do we, how do we do that? What’s the starting point for collecting data?Ronee de Leon — To be honest, I think the starting point is your culture. Rich Birch — Okay. Ronee de Leon — I think that this is often an upstream problem when we think it’s a downstream one. I think that we think people just need to follow up or just be more regular about it. But if we don’t have a strong culture around why we gather the data and what we’re doing with it, there’s just a lack of clarity with the team. So I think culture really matters as a starting point. Of course, we can get into…Rich Birch — That’s good.Ronee de Leon — …of of how to collect it. But I think we have to start there.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s a good insight. Because I can see where, yeah, we have to even just at a high level, is this a is this a conversation where we’re willing to have, want to have, want to be a part of, and we’ve got to deal with it, like you say, upstream rather than, okay, let’s dive into the actual tool first. Let’s figure out you know how important this is. Rich Birch — But my experience…I’m going to play a little bit of devil’s advocate on this question. Hopefully you can take it Ronee. Our relationship can sustain that. Ronee de Leon — Yeah.Rich Birch — But like, I feel like churches collect more data that they than they use. Like I I’ve bumped into churches where they’re like, yeah, we’ve got this data, but we’re not actually doing anything with it. What’s the difference between a church that does that? Like that just sitting on data, not using it. And one that actually can gain some clarity from it. What’s the pivot between collection and clarity? How do we do that?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, the difference is data and discernment. A church that’s collecting information knows what happened, but a church with clarity understands what it means and what to do next. And like you said, we’ve got to be willing to talk about it. We have to spend the time to translate it. It is a pivot. That raw data is is rarely helpful. And um to what do they say to to push back on your pushback?Ronee de Leon — I am surprised as I deal with churches, how many of them don’t have all the data. I think sometimes we make an assumption that above a certain size, they just collect group data and they take attendance and that’s what they do.Ronee de Leon — Or our volunteers check in or our kids and students check in regularly and they’re excellent at it. I find that that is actually less frequent of a case than than I think you or I would hope to believe.Rich Birch — Okay, that’s cool. Well and so again, I said, we weren’t going to be like selling TouchPoint, but I do want to understand kind of your unique position on this issue. How is TouchPoint accelerate… because to me, I think the model turns here on this collection clarity issue. It’s like, man, we’ve got a, we have to use technology to enable us to collect data. And then that And then have some sort of intermediating technology that helps us gain better clarity on that. Talk us through where is TouchPoint’s kind of expertise in these these two parts of the four Cs?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I would say that TouchPoint obviously helps with collection. We’re a church management software with some unique features that are going to help you get um an intuitive kind of collective view of people’s engagement.Ronee de Leon — So we offer things like engagement scores, which which not a lot of church management softwares have kind of baked into it. We want you to understand that overall participation and be able to see what level at what levels people are engaged and as they’re disengaging. There are ways to do that and and other softwares, but TouchPoint does have some unique kind of approaches to that built into the software.Ronee de Leon — I would say another piece to this that kind of separates us is we have a team of consultants and those consultants are not only partnering with churches as they’re kind of getting up and running in TouchPoint to learn how to use the system.Ronee de Leon — We’re kind of ministry consultants. We often, just a couple of weeks ago, I had a church in Texas approach me and say, you know, we have a lot of great people on our staff, but to be honest, a lot of them have transitioned from the marketplace. We don’t know what we don’t know. What processes should we have? What should our baptism process look like?Ronee de Leon — And so we have a whole team as part of our TouchPoint team that sits with churches and helps strategize around ministry philosophy and best approaches. And so I’d say that’s another place where we we kind of shine in the space. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.Ronee de Leon — Everybody in the space wants to see the church win. Everybody has good hearts. And I can only speak to the team that I’m on. And these guys, they really counted a privilege to serve the church.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s amazing. Like, and and you can see, you know, a church when this is done well, when you have got a solution like TouchPoint at the core of what you’re doing, it ends up touching all of your processes. It doesn’t surprise me that a church like that would reach out and say, Hey, like, can you help us work through because you start to see the value of like, man, if we can embed this into the core of what we do, we get a better, like you say, it’s not just like, oh, look, we get a good engagement score. It actually helps us minister to people better. It actually helps us to, and so it makes sense to me that you find yourself in increasing conversations that are obviously related to technology. They they have a, for lack of better word, a touch point to technology, but they are, they’re also, you know, other kind of related systems in the church. Rich Birch — So obviously, ultimately, this all points towards care, maybe paint a bit of a vision for us, maybe think of a church that’s doing this well. That’s like, hey, here’s some of the telltale signs that they’re actually following through that they’re, yes, they’ve got, they’ve at a high level kind of culture, they’ve got this conviction. Yes, we’re going to do that. They’re, they’re finding lots of places to collect data that doesn’t seem intrusive. They’re ultimately gaining some clarity on that. And that’s translating into real world care. Give us some, a few pictures of what does that actually look like when you’re like, oh, that’s working well.Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I would say um one of the best kind of tells of this is we hear less and less stories of people disengaging and nobody knew and they were hurt by that. We missed an opportunity to care for or connect with them when those things of life came up.Ronee de Leon — You know, it’s as simple sometimes as a phone call or a text, a conversation on a weekend when when the data is showing you that this person has been disengaging or not around, to to just reach out and say, hey, how you doing? You know, this is not um surveillance. This is stewardship. This is this is caring for our people. Ronee de Leon — And there’s a story out of the church where where I used to work that I love and I still tell just because of the multifaceted kind of piece of the engagement that came out of it. So a campus pastor who was using data really well saw an individual in his church on a list of people who were disengaging. And so he reached out and he learned that this individual had lost his job that was causing doubt in his faith. And he was actually beginning to struggle with some depression. Rich Birch — Wow.Ronee de Leon — You know, if we play that scenario out, if we never saw that, we didn’t reach out, what happens to that guy? You know, the story could have looked very, very different.Ronee de Leon — But because that pastor was able to use the data for the purposes of discipleship and make that connection, we we saw him and connected him. We were able to address his physical needs. You know, there was some assistance the church could provide or or point him to. We were able to help with mental needs, emotional needs, spiritual needs. There was pastoral care and Christian counseling. And so, so many different ways that we were able to engage and and and walk alongside this individual. Like I said, the way I think the church wants to and should be, but we maybe would have never known about that individual if we hadn’t had the indicator ah because of the data.Rich Birch — Yeah, so you something you said there caught my attention. I'm like, oh, we got to loop back around on that. The example used there, you talked about the campus pastor type person. They had like a disengagement report. There was like the system ended up generating, hey, here’s a list of people. I’m assuming by what you said, here’s some people who you know I you should connect with.Rich Birch — Talk to me about how that happens. I I I'm not like I’m not putting down any other solutions out there. I’ve worked in a number of them. I have not had that experience where it’s like, hey, these are some people you should talk to. Talk to me about how TouchPoint actually does that. What does that look like at at the level of a church? How how do we get to the point where we’re using this well enough that we can have a report like that, that we could actually take action on? That’s incredible.Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I would say um it comes down to consistency in some ways, right? You build some reports in your system. TouchPoint has a lot of unique reporting that we can do to surface that data for you. But no matter what system you’re using, I would say if you and your team aren’t using some something as simple as absentee report of some sort, people who have been missing three or more consecutive weeks from groups or something like that.Rich Birch — Volunteering, yep.Ronee de Leon — I mean you can start there and and it’s really that easy. But there are more complex ways to understand rather than the arbitrary, I want to call everybody who’s missing three weeks, understand as personal participation patterns change. And that is a really unique approach to it. Rich Birch — Wow.Ronee de Leon — And I would say it does take a software like TouchPoint or even one that TouchPoint just partnered with called Path we’re getting into seeing those personal participation patterns and that’s where I think we get into some secret sauce and just be able to show up in a really timely manner.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible. Like being able that that to me, friends, okay, I’m just going to stop pretending like I’m not biased. Like I’m biased. You should be checking out TouchPoint. But like the the I was I tried. I held for almost 20 minutes. I tried to be the the but the unbiased, you know, second voice or whatever. Rich Birch — But but I think a part of the all of these systems have, for years, have like, this is the thing that’s all been talked about. Like, this is going to be amazing. But actually what they end up doing is being, they they’re just like warehouses of data. Like it’s just, it’s just a big list. It’s basically a complex spreadsheet of people’s names. And that’s not helpful. That doesn’t actually help us. And the the vicious cycle I’ve seen with my team is our people, our people people, the people that actually interact with our folks, they don’t see the value in this helping them. So then they don’t end up interacting with the tool and giving data and all of that stuff because they’re like, well, this doesn’t actually help me do my job. So why am I interacting with it? What I love about TouchPoint is we’re saying, hey, how do we get to the to the idea of a personalized path, a personalized understanding of where people are at? That’s, you know, that’s incredible.Rich Birch — So you’ve worked with lots of churches, hundreds of churches, and, you know, lots all across the country, great, lots of different contexts. What trends are you seeing right now that church that are helping churches think about engagement differently than maybe a few years ago, that things that are like, okay, this is, you know, kind of the cutting edge stuff we we should be thinking about, you know, in the in the future, what are some things we should be looking at?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I’m really grateful that in the last few years, I think there has been started to see a shift, at least in churches moving from simply gathering the data to asking what they can do with it. How can we actually leverage this for discipleship? I think churches are taking that more seriously. It even used to be a little taboo for churches to gather data. That’s not the case anymore. And and I’m grateful for that.Rich Birch — Right.Ronee de Leon — I see that moving in a really positive direction. I’m seeing churches being willing to evaluate their technology stack, which I think is really important. Again, we’ve been gathering the data long enough long enough.Ronee de Leon — If it’s not useful, what are what are we doing? What are we doing with it?Rich Birch — Right. Why are we doing this?Ronee de Leon — And so yeah, understanding is our technology really serving us well and as a tool exactly for those people you just mentioned. Your people people, your pastoral people, is it quick and easy and getting them to their people more quickly? Ronee de Leon — And then even the idea of decisions being made around data about specifically the actual size of our ministry. I think this has been said for years now, pre-COVID it was true. Now it’s it’s even more true. Weekend service numbers don’t tell the whole story… Rich Birch — Right. Ronee de Leon — …of who is in and around our ministry pond. And we have to understand that and start making decisions around that.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Ronee de Leon — Or in those spaces, how are we discipling them towards the importance of the weekend service and that gathering? And so, I’m just seeing some things shift in that area as well. Executive pastors don’t love this conversation, Rich. I’m just going to throw that out there. Because a lot of our staffing ratios are based on weekend service attendance numbers, but we’re actually serving. The patterns that I’m seeing are somewhere between two and a half to three times that number of people in our ministries.Ronee de Leon — So there’s there’s a lot of movement in the world of data, but those are some of the things that are kind of surfacing that I think is really helpful and productive for churches.Rich Birch — Okay, I want to, I would like I said, I was want to take advantage of your expertise. An area that, speaking in this whole this consistency issue, hey, how do we keep our people engaged, keep our staff, our volunteers, key volunteers engaged in um collecting data and, you know, ensuring that they’re engaging with the tool. What have you seen as best practices either on the front end, like, hey, when we’re rolling out a new system, if we’ve, if we’ve switched, say, for instance, if you’re listening in and you want to switch to TouchPoint, what are some best practices on that front or just ongoing to keep our people using this? How do we, how do we, yeah, what’s what’s best practice on that front?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, what you’re kind of hinting towards is a little bit around change management and the stick-to-it-ativeness around that, right?Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Ronee de Leon — There is a leadership coaching company that I’ve worked with in the past that talks about to achieve anything, you need clarity, support and accountability. And I’m a really big believer in that clarity. Again, we’ve talked about what are we doing? Why are we doing it? Support is do we have the tools and the training to make that happen?Ronee de Leon — The biggest lacking piece that I see often in church world is the accountability side. Rich Birch — Right.Ronee de Leon — You know, we we wrestle with the idea of grace and truth. And a lot of times we want to lean really heavily into the grace side of things. I think there is a huge opportunity for accountability to be reframed in church world. It doesn’t have to be a drop the hammer approach. Rich Birch — Sure.Ronee de Leon — You know, it’s seeing people do the right thing and helping them continue to do that. So I would say if you don’t have all three of those pieces, you’re probably going struggle to achieve just about anything. And the part, like I said, that I see really, really with area for opportunity in the church world is that accountability piece.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Any that I think that’s a clear framework. That’s like the cost of the price price worth the price of admission of today’s episode right there.Rich Birch — Clarity, support, accountability. That’s fantastic. On the accountability side, how do we do that? What what what are some ways to, ou know, I’m thinking carrot and stick. It’s like I can we’ve celebrated where it’s like, hey, look at this person. This department’s doing a great job with this. How how else are should are have you seen churches that are particularly effective at driving that kind of consistency, driving accountability? What are they doing to ins ensure or that that’s, you know, that’s actually happening in their organization?Ronee de Leon — Yeah. Casting the vision of this being stewardship, I think really matters. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Ronee de Leon — You know, there’s a verse in Hebrews that talks about, your church leaders will be accountable to the Lord for the people they’re shepherding. And so I think really, casting the vision around stewardship as part of that. But then practically it can’t be weird to talk about it.Rich Birch — Right.Ronee de Leon — You know, let’s talk about it in department meetings. Let’s talk about it and celebrate in staff meetings. Let’s bring it up in one-on-ones. Pull the technology up with the people that you lead and look through the lists and say, what are the stories? How are things going? You know, how can I support you as you move this forward? But I just think it can’t be weird to talk about.Ronee de Leon — So between taking the stewardship side seriously and just starting to incorporate it into every conversation, every meeting, if it matters to us, and it does. It does because people are the mission of the church, right? How do we just continue to build that culture around it?Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. So you’ve put together a great resource that I want to make sure, if you’re listening in friends, you’ve invested almost 30 minutes here, you need to jump on this resource, like super helpful: the church health assessment. Talk us through what is this tool? How will it help? Why should we jump on board? You know, what what what kind of conversation could it help us with but with our team even this week?Ronee de Leon — Yeah. The church health assessment is looking at five widely accepted kind of industry benchmarks to understand how your church is comparing to those. So like we talked about earlier, this could give you a starting place to understand, according, you know, based on those benchmarks, how is your church doing? How are a few of these ministries doing? And then it’s, it’s probably going to highlight somewhere specific for you to start drilling into and double clicking on. So, that assessment is going to be at TouchPointsoftware.com/unseminary. Rich Birch — Ooo, look at that. Ronee de Leon — Like I said, it’s going to take you, if you’ve got the data, which is part of this conversation, right?Rich Birch — Yeah.Ronee de Leon — But if you know the numbers, it’s only going to take you two or three minutes to get these five key areas kind of benchmarked to understand how your church is performing compared to those accepted benchmarks.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. Like, again, friends, I would love for you to check that out. We’ll put a link in the show notes to that. Thanks for doing that. What a great gift, tool for people that are listening in. That’s super helpful. I appreciate that. I think I can see where this kind of thing could be super helpful for us, even to have like a bit of a leadership conversation around, let’s do it and then talk about it together. It’s a good conversation. Rich Birch — So taking a step back, if I’m if i’m an executive pastor or senior leader who’s listening in, and I feel like I’m constantly, or we’re mostly reacting. We’re constantly reacting to problems at our church. You know, we’re not getting ahead of this. We’re not seeing kind of data but as it, you know, we’re not developing, like you say, ahead. We’re just, it’s stuff happens and then we you react. How could we use data to help us get ahead of that rather than, you know, just reacting all the time? What’s one of the first areas we should look at and consider as a church?Ronee de Leon — Yeah, I would say that a simple place to start is kind of revisiting this framework of conviction, collection, clarity, and care. And ask yourself, what C is my church stuck on? Where are we stuck in this journey? And dive in there, ask the questions, reach out to another church who maybe is doing this really well. But that’s where I would say, practically, I would ask yourself, where are you on this kind of progressive journey of data-driven discipleship?Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. This has been a fantastic conversation. If you were, I’m going to get one more last question in for you here. What’s one question you wish every church leader who’s listening in today would would ask about their church that almost nobody’s asking right now, that’s thinking about this area, that’s thinking about like, hey, what are we, you know, here’s a question I wish we were thinking about that we’re not thinking about today.Ronee de Leon — Yeah, churches are asking a lot of good questions. And I love this topic. I’m passionate about data-driven discipleship.Rich Birch — Love it.Ronee de Leon — But I think the question behind the question behind the question kind of comes down to: are we promoting participation or are we cultivating transformation? And that’s what I hope that we’re asking through this kind of sea of data and everything that we’re we’re looking at. The core of things. Are we promoting participation or are we cultivating transformation for the people of our churches?Rich Birch — Well, this is fantastic. There’s a ton we could talk about on this front. This has been helpful conversation for us today. Friends, I want to encourage you to take the church health assessment. Give us that address again that we want to send people to.Ronee de Leon — It’s going to be at touchpointsoftware.com/unseminary.Rich Birch — Great. Well, you can do that right in your phone right now. We’d love for you to go and check that out. We’ll put a link to that. Anywhere else we want to send people online, Ronee, if they want to track with TouchPoint or maybe we’re sitting in today and we’re thinking, you know what, maybe we should relook at this area. I’m not super happy with what’s going on with our, you know, church management software. Where do we want to send them online to get more information and about what what you guys do?Ronee de Leon — Go ahead and just check out touchpointsoftware.com. I would recommend you get a demo. Like I said, it’s kind of a conversation that churches are having right now, evaluating their tech stack. If you haven’t looked at it in a while, just take a look, maybe just look around and we would love the opportunity to connect with you and demo TouchPoint for you. So that same website without the backslash, get a demo and we’d we’d be just thrilled to have a conversation with you.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s good. Friends, I just want to endorse that. I think that’s a great next step for lots of our churches that are listening in today. Listen, friends, your team spends a lot of time in this in this tool. Whatever you use on this front, they spend a lot of time on it. It’s worth a sober second look. It’s worth, if you haven’t looked at this in a while, to take a step back and say, hey, let’s take a look at this again. And TouchPoint would be a great one to for you to to to take a look at and say, hmm, I wonder if maybe we should be looking at a change.Rich Birch — So Appreciate that, Ronee. It’s so great seeing you again. I’d love to have you come back on in the future. I’m sure there’s more we could talk about, but thanks for being here today.Ronee de Leon — Sounds good. Thank you, Rich.

Your people aren't broken. Here's what's really going on. Three weeks after I got my driver's license, I put my car in a ditch. This was back when you could walk into the licensing office on your sixteenth birthday, get a learner's permit, and … within a few weeks … be fully licensed, no restrictions, no supervision. And that was me. Sixteen years old, license in my wallet, and a car I was allowed to drive anywhere. It was a Christmas party, which meant it was a winter night. I was driving home with friends, a paved road transitioning to gravel, and I hit that washboard effect … the tires skittering sideways in a way I'd never felt before. My car did something I wasn't expecting. I overcorrected and we ended up nose-down in the ditch on the wrong side of the road. Here's the thing: I was fully licensed. I'd passed the test, on paper, and I knew how to drive. I just hadn't been trained for that specific moment. Nobody had taken me out to a gravel road and said, This is what washboard feels like, this is what your car will do, and this is how you respond. The gap between licensed and actually prepared put me in a ditch. I think about that night almost every time a pastor tells me their people won't invite. Your people are not the problem. Say it again. Your people are not the problem. Stop the quiet Monday-morning verdict that your people just don't care enough, aren't committed enough, or aren't bold enough in their faith. That story is wrong. And worse, it's leading you to the wrong solutions. Spiritual guilt campaigns don't build invite culture. They build a two-week bump and a long guilt hangover. Here's what the data actually says about your people. Roughly a third of unchurched Americans say they'd attend a worship service if a friend invited them. [ref] That number climbs for lower-barrier community events. Meanwhile, three in four regular churchgoers say the sermon content is a primary reason they show up … Scripture, connection to real life, and actual teaching. [ref] Translation: the receptivity is already sitting in your people's friend groups. The weekend experience is already a word-of-mouth asset. Your people care, their friends are open, and the raw materials are there. So why is your invite rate what it is? Because licensed isn't the same as trained. Your people are fully credentialed believers who've never been taken out on the gravel road. And when the invite moment shows up — a friend at work mentions a hard week, or a neighbor asks what you did this weekend — they hit the washboard and overcorrect. They mumble something vague or change the subject or go quiet. You read that as a motivation problem. But it isn't. It's a training problem and those are very different things — because one of them you can actually fix. What your people actually need (and it's not another guilt sermon) Three things. Not one, not two, but three. Train their Heads // Most of your congregation thinks they’re passengers. Your people need to understand what role they actually play in reaching your community. Not abstractly or as a sermon illustration. It needs to be communicated as a job description. Most people in the seats on Sunday don't believe they have a meaningful role in the impact your church will have on the community. They think that's the pastor's job, the staff's job, or the outreach team's job. When an invitation comes up, they nod along … but in their head, they're a passenger. You're the one driving the bus. Training changes the mental model. It teaches your people that they are the most persuasive communication channel your church has … more than your Instagram, more than your website, more than any ad you could run. The research backs this up repeatedly. People don't get invited by buildings, they get invited by friends. When a congregation genuinely understands that — at a head level — their posture shifts. They stop waiting for the church to grow itself. Equip their Hands. // Your people freeze because nobody gave them a script. Now give them the tools. What are the actual words to say when a friend asks what you did this weekend? What do you text someone after they mention their marriage is struggling? What's the language for inviting a coworker to Easter without it sounding like a pitch? What do you share on social media, and when, and how often? This is where most churches fall off a cliff. We train people at a concept level, then send them into real conversations with no script, no prompts, and no practice reps. They freeze. Of course, they freeze! We froze, too, the first time we tried to explain what grace is to a skeptical relative at Thanksgiving. Equipping means giving your people specific language, specific triggers for when to use it, and specific tools … shareable social posts, invite cards that don't feel weird, text templates … that reduce the friction of the actual moment. Language without the tool is theory. The tool without the language is a tract left on a diner table. Motivate their Hearts. // Guilt is not vision. And finally: the why. This isn’t about guilt or obligation, and it’s not another way of saying that better Christians invite more people. Real motivation is vision. It's the moment your people see that this — inviting their coworker, their sister-in-law, the single mom down the street — is how their community actually changes. This is how a marriage that's quietly falling apart gets a Tuesday night small group. This is how a lonely senior gets a ride to church and a coffee after. This is how the teenager whose parents just got divorced finds one adult who keeps showing up. This is how we change the world. Not from the stage but from the seats. Motivation isn't about making your people feel bad. It's about letting them feel the weight of what their life is worth when it's spent this way. Here's why this matters for you specifically The pastor who thinks our people just won't invite builds culture around guilt and shallow inspiration. Neither compound. You'll run that sermon series every September and get the same spike every September and wonder why the baseline never moves. The pastor who thinks our people need to be trained, equipped, and motivated builds systems. And systems compound. Year one looks modest. Year three looks like a different church. One of those leaders is still running the same spike-and-drop cycle in 2031. The other isn't. The question isn't whether your people care. They do. The question is whether you've ever built them a gravel road to practice on, or whether you keep handing out licenses and acting surprised when they end up in the ditch. The Invite Culture Audit — May 12 On Tuesday, May 12 at 12pm ET, I'm hosting a free workshop called the Invite Culture Audit Workshop. It's not a pep talk. It's a diagnostic. For twenty years, I've had a front-row seat to what's actually working inside growing churches across North America. And here's what I keep seeing: the churches that are growing aren't doing more. They've just made inviting normal. In 60 minutes, we'll work through three things together: Why healthy churches get stuck — the hidden reason your church is doing all the right things, yet guest flow stays inconsistent and big days spike then settle right back. The 5 Gears of Invite Culture — the specific systems growing churches use to move from hoping people invite to expecting they will. Your 90-Day Invite Culture Blueprint — a practical plan to mobilize your people, multiply invitations, and build real momentum heading into fall 2026. You'll walk out with your Invite Culture Scorecard — a clear picture of where your invite culture is strong, where it's leaking, and which of the three — train, equip, or motivate — is the dominant blocker in your church right now. You won't get a generic answer. The answer will be specifically your own. That's the starting point for building the training your people never got. Zero pressure, no hard pitch, and your whole team is welcome. → Register for the free Invite Culture Audit Workshop One last thing about that ditch When the police pulled me out of the snow that night, they asked me where I wanted to go. My parents were out and I knew enough that I shouldn't go home to an empty house. So, they drove me to Pastor Dave Lewis's house – my senior pastor and a good man. (Plus … if I'm honest, I figured when they came to pick me up at Pastor Dave's house that would soften any initial parental pressure.) He opened the door in whatever pastors wear at 10 pm on a winter night, and he wasn't angry and he wasn't disappointed. He was just kind. He let me sit on his couch, shake a little, and eventually call my folks to tell them what happened. My parents expressed concern, but — honestly — they didn't freak out. They were just grateful I was alive. And then the police showed up at the front door with the real consequence: a one-month suspension. No driving. Here's the truth: I didn't want to drive after that experience. I was sixteen, and I'd scared myself badly. That month off did something the license test never did. I came back to the road a different driver. I was slower, more careful, and more aware of what I didn't know. To this day, I drive slower than my wife. She'll tell you that, cheerfully. I think about that sometimes when I'm talking to a pastor whose invite numbers are flat. Because your people aren't reckless, they're not uncommitted, but most of them are quietly in the ditch — they tried, it went sideways, they stopped trying, and now they're just driving to work and back. The audit isn't a lecture. It's closer to Pastor Dave's couch. We figure out what's actually happened. We name the specific thing that went wrong. And then, together, we build the training your people should have had all along. That's how you get them back on the road. See you May 12.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Donnie Griggs, founding and lead pastor of One Harbor Church in eastern North Carolina. Over nearly two decades, Donnie has led the church from a living room gathering to a thriving multisite church reaching around 2,500 people each weekend in a rural context. In this conversation, we focus on a growing leadership challenge: how churches can effectively engage and disciple men in today's cultural moment. Are you noticing fewer men engaging in your church, or struggling to define what biblical manhood even looks like today? Wondering how to call men forward without falling into shame-based or culturally distorted approaches? Donnie shares a practical and hopeful framework for building a culture of “good men” in your church. Recognizing the quiet crisis among men. // Donnie began noticing subtle but significant indicators: fewer weddings, more single women asking “Where are the good men?”, and a growing sense that many men were stuck—lacking vision, purpose, and direction. Even older men reaching retirement were finding that the life they had worked toward didn't deliver the fulfillment they expected. These observations, combined with broader cultural trends, led Donnie to believe that churches must intentionally address the formation of men rather than assume it will happen naturally. Prioritizing men again. // Donnie made a conscious decision to focus on men’s ministry, creating intentional environments like men's gatherings, reframing how the church speaks to men, and leveraging key moments like Father's Day. Instead of reinforcing negative stereotypes, the goal became calling something out of men and casting vision for who they can become. Redefining the goal: good, not great. // Central to Donnie's approach is a shift away from cultural obsession with “greatness” toward biblical “goodness.” Rather than pushing men to become influencers or achieve notoriety, he emphasizes becoming faithful, reliable, and obedient. To make this practical, he developed a simple framework describing a “good man”: someone who embraces responsibility, serves and protects, blesses and encourages others, builds deep friendships with other men, and ultimately follows Jesus. This framework gives men a clear target, which many struggle to articulate on their own. Combating unhealthy cultural narratives. // Donnie is careful to address both extremes in cultural conversations about masculinity. On one hand, he rejects exaggerated “alpha male” stereotypes that emphasize dominance and performance. On the other, he acknowledges that harmful behaviors among men are real and must be addressed. His approach is to call men into a fuller, more biblical picture that includes strength and responsibility but also compassion, tenderness, and emotional health. Looking to the life of Jesus provides a balanced model that breaks down unhelpful stereotypes. Moving from shame to encouragement. // A key insight Donnie shares is that many men operate under a constant sense of shame, feeling like they are not enough and never will be. While shame can motivate behavior in the short term, it is ultimately destructive. Instead, churches must create cultures of encouragement. This includes helping men take responsibility without condemning them, affirming progress, and consistently speaking life into them. Encouragement, not shame, becomes the fuel for long-term transformation. Building brotherhood, not just buddies. // Another major gap Donnie identifies is the lack of deep male friendships. Many men have acquaintances but few relationships where they can be honest and vulnerable. He emphasizes the need for churches to create spaces where men can move from surface-level connections to genuine brotherhood. Tools like his book Becoming Good Men are designed to facilitate these conversations, helping men process deeper questions together rather than in isolation. A tool for churches to implement. // Donnie wrote Becoming Good Men to give churches a practical resource they can use in small groups, mentoring relationships, or larger men's initiatives. With discussion questions built into each chapter, it's designed to spark meaningful conversations and help men take tangible steps forward. To learn more about One Harbor Church, visit oneharborchurch.com. You can also find Donnie's book Becoming Good Men on Amazon, Audible, or at becominggoodmen.org for bulk church resources. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they're reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you've been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a repeat guest on today, which what does that mean? That means that I want you to hear from them again. I'm really excited for today’s conversation because it’s super relevant. We’ve been hearing about this in kind of the broader news and we want to bring an expert on to help us think through these issues.Rich Birch — Today, excited to have Donnie Griggs with us. He is the founding and lead pastor of a fantastic church, One Harbor Church, a multi-site church with, if I’m counting correctly, three locations in North Carolina. They’re passionate about planting disciple-making churches in eastern North Carolina. So glad that you’re on the the show today. Welcome back, Donnie.Donnie Griggs — Man, so good to be with you, Rich. Thanks again for having me.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s going to be great. Why don’t we start with, tell us a little bit about One Harbor. Give us a quick picture of the church and what’s been God doing across your locations and since we last talked.Donnie Griggs — Yeah, sure. We started 17 and a half years ago in a living room. I kind of thought that’s what we would do forever and was really happy with that idea. I didn’t tell the person whose living room it was that my long term plan was to use their living room. And just God did something different and it just grew a lot. This is a town I’m from. So there’s ah a book about our town and my mom and my granddad are on the cover of it. And it’s very much like our town.Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Donnie Griggs — Yeah. So um huge desire to see, you know, people who just had no never thought they’d ever go to church. Like, um, those are the people that we were after. And, and so anyway been, been quite a ride the last 17 and a half years. Like you said, we’re now three locations. We average about 2,500 people on a Sunday across the the three locations. And we’re in a pretty small rural, you know, context. And so, that, you know, that’s got a lot of, a lot of great opportunities, you know, to, to make an impact, but also a lot of challenges as well. So that’s kind of it in a nutshell.Rich Birch — Yeah, you’ve been there for 17 or planted 17 years, been there much longer, but you know you’ve been pastoring this context for for you know almost two decades. Today, we’re going to talk specifically, friends, about kind of men in the church and what are we doing as churches to engage men. And Donnie’s done some really great stuff on this front that I want to make sure we kind of unpack. But what have you been noticing about the men in your church and in your community over the last couple of years? What are some of the things have been kind of on your heart and mind around this?Donnie Griggs — Gosh. So I think one of the things is there’s kind of a few things. One, I noticed of just randomly that we weren’t doing as many weddings as we used to do. It was just this random kind of data point that I was like, why do I feel like I’m hardly doing any weddings anymore? And then kind of with that, I found like almost it felt like every Sunday, some really great single woman would come up to me and be like, where are the men? Like, where are the good men? You know?Rich Birch — Right.Donnie Griggs — And so that was kind of going on in in the background. And then I just kind of with that saw so many men that were just stuck in various ways, really visionless, bored. Even like older guys who kind of had this really jarring moment where they make it to retirement. They think, oh, my gosh, like I’ve I've arrived now. I can just golf all day or fish all day. And and and and really just, you know, me seeing, you know, and I'm I’m not I’m almost 45. So I’m a little ways away from this. But to like see how unsettling that was for men and how really jarring and and honestly, how unhappy they were, you know, like kind of, they get to this sort of cultural finish line and, and it just does not satisfy them, you know, in the way that I think they, they thought it would and longed for. Donnie Griggs — And, and so just lots of stuff like that kind of going on the last few years that, you know, have have, have, you know, made me feel like, man, we got to do something about this, you know?Rich Birch — Yeah, and what what changes did you end up making in the church, in your ministry? How did that kind of impact how you were you were thinking about, you know, ministering to your community, reaching out to your community, engaging people?Donnie Griggs — Yep. So, I mean, I think, I think we just began to prioritize, like trying to reach men. You know, even from the beginning. This was going on, like very early days, we were meeting in the living room for church. I would, I’d do these men’s nights in my house. I think what I realized was, you know, and we are so grateful for the incredible women who come to our church. I mean, so many amazing women. But like just men weren’t coming to church. They were fishing. They were working in the garage. They were golfing. They were hunting. They were doing something. Donnie Griggs — And so kind of from the early days, there was this desire to do so something for men. But I think we did a lot more of it in the beginning. And then church got bigger. Things got busier. And this thing really fell to the wayside. And and so I think in in recent years, I was like, man, we’ve got to put this on the front burner again. We really I kind of took took it back and really owned, like, how do I build a culture of good, strong men? Because if we do that, you know, like, you know, all the data points to it’s going to it’s going to lead to better marriages, better families, better you know, better society, better everything, you know? Donnie Griggs — I mean all all that data around like fatherlessness and, um, all the carnage that comes from men not doing the stuff that they need to do. And so I just felt like we got to really prioritize that. And so it’s looked like a variety of things. It’s looked like a lot of men’s breakfasts and clarifying what we mean by what a good man is. And you some conferences, some, I mean, even like it really leveraging Father’s Day. A buddy mine said it like this. He said, you know, we’ve turned Father’s Day into like Toxic Masculinity Awareness Day where we just it was just shame men for like being in such terrible men.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Donnie Griggs — And so we were like, no, we we don’t want to do that. So how do we how do we look for ways to encourage men to call something out of them, you know?Rich Birch — I want I want to come back to that, the toxic masculinity question in a second. So I’m going to put ah a pin in that, but you asked a good question there. What do you mean when you say, be a good man? What does what does that actually mean?Donnie Griggs — Yeah. So I intentionally use the word good, not great. I think like, I think from a Bible standpoint, greatness is something that God does, you know, but goodness is something that’s sort of in our hands, you know. He lays out for us in just so many ways, what it looks like to be a good man in scripture. And so that’s just sort of of a broad thing there. Donnie Griggs — And then I think we’ve got a cultural obsession with greatness. think especially of like the younger generation who’s obsessed with being an influencer with, you know, with somehow being, you insta-famous. And I wanted to just push back on that and just say, hey, guys, that’s not actually what we’re aiming for. We want to aim for we want to aim for what it means to be a good man. Donnie Griggs — And so you could use words like, you know, reliable and faithful. And, you know, there’s all kinds of words you could you could Google and use for that. But we really just boiled it down to these kind of five things that guys can just hang their hat on and just, you know, aim at. Donnie Griggs — So, a good man embraces responsibility. You know, he eats it up. He wants it. You know, a good man serves and protects. You know, he looks for ways to step into hard things and and make a difference. And, you know, kind of that sort of serve and protect thing. Those those two felt pretty straightforward.Donnie Griggs — And then, but I thought there’s, there’s more to that, you know, that, that just, the end of the day, that’s, that’s pretty cultural. I mean, there’s a lot of, think of Jordan Peterson, think of all kinds of guys who’ve talked about, you need to clean your room. you need to, you know, you need to, step up. You need, so so guys are getting a lot of that. You know, what, what else does the scripture say that paints a broader picture for what a good man is?Donnie Griggs — And that’s where we threw in things like a good man blesses and he encourages. You know, a good man. And then, and then I wanted to talk a lot about friendship when I think about, you know, we’ve done this weird thing where we’ve, we’ve normalized female friendship and we’ve really sexualized, you know, deep male friendship. Does that make sense?Donnie Griggs — Like we’ve kind of told guys you can’t… So I found this data point says the average man in America under 30 doesn’t have one male friend he can be emotionally honest with. And so it’s kind of that Bible verse, you know, a man of many companions may come to ruin. That’s, ah that’s what I think we’ve done with men. We’ve said you get to have buddies, but not brothers. And so really, really, really wanting to like go hard in the paint on what it what it means to have deep male friendship. So they walk with other good men. And then finally, obviously, they they follow the only perfect man who ever lived. Donnie Griggs — So we just came up with that to to give guys a grid for what is it we’re aiming for? Because, I mean, you’re right. say Being a good man doesn’t, you know, it’s like, well, what does that mean? You know?Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s cool. Well, I want to dig into a couple of those, but but you brought it up, the toxic masculinity thing. Part of what I find intriguing that you’re talking about this, there is a version of this conversation that feels very like machismo, super masculine, like in a in like a negative way, you know, in a, you know, it turns into this kind of like, I don’t know, it’s like, who can, you know, do the most pushups or whatever. How do you think about that issue when you’re trying to speak to encourage, you know, grow men? How do you think about that?Donnie Griggs — Yeah. That is a really great question, Rich. I think, so one of the things we’ve got to do is just go out of our way to push back on faux versions of masculinity. And so I mean what you’re alluding to there is the kind of Andrew Tate sort of alpha male you know thing where, I I mean, I’ve been to Africa a bunch and through the years doing ministry stuff, and I’ve been around a bunch of baboons. And I literally think that’s what that’s what that’s what culture like that’s what that sort of cultural lens is. It’s more baboon like.Rich Birch — Sure.Donnie Griggs — It’s like I can bench press. I’m super strong. I can get any woman I want whenever I want. And so we want to push back on that. That’s not what we’re aiming for. And also that disqualifies men who tend to be more sensitive or more tender, you know, and that’s really sad to me, you know, that we’ve we’ve basically. We’ve kind of fallen into a narrative there where we tell men, you know, you, you aren’t really a man if you’re not like this. Donnie Griggs — And I had a guy who’s, who’s like that. He’s just very tender and very compassionate. And, you know, he said he was like 51 years old when it finally hit him that he was a man, you know, even with that kind of tension. And so I think we just wanted to like, yeah, I wanted to make sure we don’t, we don’t do that. Donnie Griggs — And so, ah but I do think like kind of with that, we do need to own that there are a lot of men who are toxic and are bad. And so I think to, you know, to just act like, you know, that that’s not a thing is is not helpful either. I think to, you know, kind of in that to be empathetic toward men who, are lacking vision, lacking purpose. I mean, you know, so many of us just, you know, we did not have the good examples that we needed growing up. And, you know, so there’s just like layers and layers to this.Donnie Griggs — But I think to stay away from that kind of locker room, shame-based, just man-up sort of like language is a position that I want to take. And I also want to steer really far away from a kind of masculinity that demeans women, you know, and, and demeans men who don’t fit like cultural stereotypes, you know?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. And yeah, that’s just from the little bit I know about you and know about your church. The thing I think it’s great that you’re engaging this conversation because you as a leader don’t come across as like, oh, I’m like the rah-rah, like you say, the man up, you know, the baboon. That’s a great, you know, that’s that’s not my impression of you or your church. And so I love that you guys are tackling this. I think giving a fresh voice to this. Rich Birch — Well, at some point you decided to sit down and put this together, this kind of five into a framework that you ultimately became a book. What kind of, what led you to actually want to do that? The book friends we’re talking about is “Becoming Good Men: A Guide to Figuring It Out Together.” What kind of led you to the point where you’re thinking, Hey, okay, I think now’s the time I want to kind of pull, put this into codify this into a book. As an author, I know that that’s a, that’s a tough amount of work to do.Donnie Griggs — It’s so much work, man.Rich Birch — Yes.Donnie Griggs — It is so much daggone work. So I think it was a couple of things. I think I felt…so, I kept having chats with men, lots and lots and lots of men. And I would ask them the same question. What kind of man do you want to be? And they just couldn’t answer it. They just couldn’t answer it. And so my heart just began to really be so heavy, you know for men who, you know that is ah that’s a tough, you know we live in such a weird moment you know culturally, and it’s so hard, I think, to be ah a man in our current moment.Donnie Griggs — So to not even know what you’re aiming for just felt like, gosh, as a pastor for men in our church, I just wanted to like put something in their hands that, that could help them. But then really beyond that, I think maybe the most thing, the thing that drove me the most to it was just being a dad.Donnie Griggs — So I’ve got two boys, one’s 11, Wyatt, and the other one’s 14, Jed. And I just was like, you know, if nobody else gets this book, I want my two sons to get it. You know, I really thought I want to put something in their hands so they don’t have to wonder, what are we aiming for here? Like what, what, what does it look like to be a good man? You know?Donnie Griggs — And, so I think those two things, you know, really, really drove me to want to do this. And and and then, you know, kind of maybe a third piece would just be, I alluded to this earlier, but seeing older men, I feel like really waste their last years and and wanting to like call older men to, to finish well and to, you know, really count to the very, to the very end of their lives. Donnie Griggs — And I’m not saying it’s wrong to ever play golf or ever go fishing. You know, I’m not definitely not saying that. But, ah but I, I think this, ah I wanted to cast vision too, for like the older generation to see themselves as really needed and, and, and, and wanted, you know. Donnie Griggs — So that’s that was some of the driving. I just feel like eventually you have to write this stuff down. I you can’t have 10,000 lunches with people, you know, saying the same thing, you know.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s cool. That’s great. Well, let’s dive into a little bit, you know, a few, maybe a few of the five areas. So embrace responsibility, this this first one. So talk us through this a little bit. What does that look like practically for, you know, maybe somebody who’s drifting and how is that not just another version of like, you’re a bad person because you keep dropping the ball. I know that’s not what you’re saying, but how do we, how are you handling this with guys to help kind of call something out of them rather than shame them into something?Donnie Griggs — Yeah, that shame word is such a big one, right? It’s like the air we breathe as men. I’m not enough. I’ll never be enough. I don’t have what it takes. I mean, so many men, some of us probably consciously, but most of us, I think subconsciously, we just live in that. And so I just don’t I don’t ever want to be part of any of that, you know. No one needs more shame. What we need is a lot of encouragement. And and and unfortunately, I think a lot of the language that’s out there that is on the like, you know, take responsibility thing, does, I think, activate shame in men. And so, you know, shame does work as a fuel source. It’s just a really bad one, you know, like it it, it works, but it’s like super unhealthy.Rich Birch — Right.Donnie Griggs — And so yeah. So I think with young guys, like trying to get them to the word embrace responsibility, you know, to stop, you know, Paul talks about it like this – he says, like, when I was a child, I, you know, I acted like a kid, you know, I, I, I did all those childish things, but now I, I became, when I became a man, of put away those childish things. And so I think it’s like, what are the steps you can take to begin to put away childish, like a childish behavior?Rich Birch — It’s good.Donnie Griggs — I, I met with a therapist one time and, I really expected to get a lot more sympathy from this person since I was paying quite a lot to see them. And I said something like some behavior I’d done and I said, I know that’s really you know childlike of me. And she pushed back and she said, no, she’s like, childlike is what Jesus tells us to be. You’re being childish. That’s different. And it was like a BOOM moment for me where I realized, man, I’m justifying childish behavior, you know.Donnie Griggs — And so I want to help, I want to help young guys, especially to first begin to just take responsibility for themselves, you know. You know, the scriptures talk about loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And so what does it look like to begin to, you know, you know take responsibility for for like you as a fully integrated human being? You know, what is it, you know, not just your actions, but also your thoughts and your feelings. And how do you begin to like, you know, really take responsibility for that? Donnie Griggs — How do you how do you begin to, you know, scripture, all the proverbs are so great on this where it talks about like how, you know, each of us has like a field and, you know, is your field overgrown? Is it full of weeds? Is it, is it, is there chaos in your life where, you know, if you go back to the garden, like Adam was meant to step into that chaos and bring order. He was meant to, you know…So what does it like to begin to look at your sphere of influence and and begin to and and begin to you know embrace responsibility? Kids have to be made to do, they have to be made to do something, you know whereas you know good men begin to look around them and go, what what here is actually for me to do? you know. And how do begin to be someone who contributes? You know?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I love that. Another other thing, different idea. So for some reason, and maybe again, you’re the expert on this. I’m not. It’s like, guys, we struggle with looking somebody else else in the eye, a guy we love, a guy we think the world of. We think, man, this internally, we’re like, that guy’s incredible, does great stuff, is a good man. I see them doing all kinds of amazing things. But it’s like, there’s something that stops us from looking at that person, speaking words of encouragement to them. It’s like a language that we’re not comfortable with. Rich Birch — Why is that? Talk us through that. And then what have you tried to do as a church to try to help with that? Is there anything that you’ve you’ve kind of instilled to try to help guys think that through a little bit better?Donnie Griggs — Yeah. So that’s the whole bless and curse thing, right? It’s like men aren’t just tough. They’re meant to be tender, you know. And and we know this by looking at the life of Jesus. I mean, unfortunately, what we’ve done as a society is we have we feminized certain things, you know, and and so we feminized things like tenderness. We feminized things like compassion. And we we see those with men as a sign of weakness, or some kind of softness that’s not akin to masculinity.Donnie Griggs — And that’s where I love looking at Jesus, because i mean, you know, he’s over and over again we read he’s moved with compassion, moved with compassion, moved with compassion. He weeps openly at a funeral. He just does, He breaks all those stereotypes, you know. And and so I think getting a grid for masculinity where we can be tender. We can be compassionate. We can be empathetic. I think that’s really important. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think we’ve just got to like…Donnie Griggs — This this stuff has been around for a while, right? It’s the like, you know, dad, you know, disciplines the child. Mom goes in and make sure the child’s OK. You know, it’s like it’s like we we’ve we’ve really embodied these kind of unhelpful stereotypes and and for far too long, for far too long. So I just yeah, I think it’s unfortunate that, like you said, I mean, to use your analogy, that men can’t can’t use words like I love you. I mean, how many, many can say things like I never saw my dad cry. My dad never said he loved me. And that is, that is so not healthy.Donnie Griggs — It’s like…and so how do we create, how do we make it okay for men and make it more than okay? Like how do we normalize and kind of expect men to, to, to embrace these kinds of things, to, to walk in, in, in this way. And, and we can’t even tell a guy to your point, we can’t even tell a guy we love them. We have to say something like, I love you, bro. You know, like we have to add something on there because we’re so worried about this thing looking like we mean something else. And that, that is just, we really need to put that behind us, you know, because I mean, people around us are so desperate for encouragement.Rich Birch — I heard you reference something that you do with your own boys to try to break some of this. I think you refer to it even as a liturgy. Donnie Griggs — Yeah.Rich Birch — What does what does that look like? Tell us about that.Donnie Griggs — Yeah. So that would kind of just, you know, came, I look back and think, I remember being in the room when it happened. It was 14 years ago. Jed was a baby and I was holding him in his room and I just found myself, I prayed this very simple prayer for him. Very simple prayer that where I asked, you know, I was asking God to thanking God for him, asking God to help me be a better dad and and just some of those things.Donnie Griggs — And then and then I just fell in this little kind of call and response thing with him where I mean, he was a baby, literally holding him in my arms. And I so I had to say the words for him. But, you know, and you know, I it sounds so simple that I struggle. It’s even worth saying. But I'll I’ll tell you since you’re asking. But it was basically what what basically what I do is I just say, like, you know, Jed, you know, you’re a gift and you’re made to be a… and he’s supposed to say: a blessing.Donnie Griggs — And I say, you’re safe and your daddy’s strong and you’re not… And he’s supposed to say: alone. And I say, and you’re strong. And he’s supposed to say: too. And so I just did that one night. Simple prayer said this little thing. And then the next night I did it again. And the next night I did it again. And I’ve been doing that. I did the math. I’ve been doing that like over five…I’ve done it over 5,000 nights.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Donnie Griggs — And obviously with my son Wyatt and I do it with him every night. Now they’re like preteen teenagers. Some nights they’re like happy about it. Some nights they’re like, they just say the words kind of begrudgingly, you know… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Donnie Griggs — …like, but, but I really wanted them to hear, as long as they’re as long as I can, I wanted them to to hear these things. I wanted them to know that like there’s security for them. There’s like their dad loves them, their strength you know in their dad for them, but also that they were made for something, you know. There’s like gifting to them and there’s blessing that they were made to give and there’s strength in them. And so, I mean, you know if I was to sit down and try to script it out, maybe I’d come up with something different, but I just fell into this. Donnie Griggs — And I mean, if nothing else, my kids, don’t I don’t think they’ll ever forget it. I mean, they just it’s like one of those they’ve heard it so many times, you know, and I’m just committed to continuing to say it over and over again.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. That’s a great, what a great vivid example for, you know, for parents, particularly young dads who who are, you know, early in their in their walk with their their sons. That’s fantastic. That’s that’s so cool.Rich Birch — Well, if you were, well, I want to get to the book a little bit more. What have been as you’ve kind of it’s been out there in the world as people have started to to use it. What have been maybe a surprise in a positive way? Like, oh, here’s the way I’ve seen a church use it. Or here’s a way that it’s interacted either inside your church or outside the church. Talk to us a bit about the journey of the book.Donnie Griggs — Some of the surprises have been like the amount of like wives and moms of boys, especially single moms who have really enjoyed it.Donnie Griggs — How they, you know, actually, i I spoke with a young lady the other She just got engaged. She read it and she said she felt like she was able to put her ear to the door ear to the door and hear a conversation that she really needed to hear. Like she was eavesdropping on a conversation. She was like, man, I’m about to be, she she just said, I’m about to be married. And I just thought, you know, I’m getting a glimpse into the kind of man that like my husband my future husband, you know, wants to be. And so like from like young, engaged women to single moms who are going, I need to know how to help my son here. I don’t have a dad in the picture. You know, wives, that’s been really surprising.Donnie Griggs — I think also like people outside the church who aren’t Christians, who’ve like really enjoyed it. I mean, like doing with their coworkers and God, God just, you know, got a copy and said he sat down and read the whole thing that, you know, in one sitting and, and then bought copies and is doing with his coworkers that, at I think some construction workshop worksite or something. That’s like, I did not see that coming. I didn’t have that on my note card, you know?Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yes.Donnie Griggs — But I really did want it to be easy to read and be accessible. So I’m glad it it is working in that way. and And we’ve got lots of churches doing it in lots of different ways.Donnie Griggs — So there’s questions at the end of each chapter that are for discussion. And so I’ve heard everything from middle school boys and high school boys and young life groups and all kinds of like that younger group, you know, sort of thing working through it. Some of them are like fifty kids at once. Some of them were like three kids at once. All the way through I mean all the way through to like men I just had an email from a guy in south Africa who read it – he’s in his like 80s, I think… Rich Birch — Wow. Donnie Griggs — …and was so inspired and so encouraged and it’s like for I mean for guy that age to be like man, I I am still needed. I'm still wanted. There’s still—it’s like a Caleb thing—there’s still strength in me. There’s still purpose for me. So really the like…Rich Birch — That’s good.Donnie Griggs — …almost the full gamut there. And then I’ve heard of churches doing, I just spoke at a church up in in in the like kind of Gaithersburg area over the weekend in Maryland. And they got like 40 guys going through it at once, all the way through to like small group, you know men’s small groups. And this has really been kind of wide, you know, which again, I didn’t know what to expect. I mean, but it’s been pretty encouraging.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very good. I love that. it’s It’s cool to see when it kind of starts to live beyond you, right? It’s like, it gets kind of a life out of its own, which is pretty cool to see. That’s ah yeah that’s super encouraging.Rich Birch — What when you think about the book as a tool, what are a couple of the ways that you can imagine it being used? You mentioned a few there, like it could be used in your men’s ministry. It could be used as a small group. Talk us through one of a couple of those ways that you were, as you were writing, you thought, oh, I could see how churches could use this.Donnie Griggs — Yeah. I mean, I really, when I think about our church, my goal is that every man who comes to our church is meaningfully connected to some other men. It goes back to that friendship thing. I want men to have more than buddies. I want them to have brothers, you know, drinking buddies, hunting buddies, golfing buddies, whatever buddies, you know. That, that is not going to get you where you need to go.Donnie Griggs — And so I wrote it thinking primarily like what if two or three guys went through this together, you know, because the questions are, they’re not easy, you know, um, at the of the chapters, they, they really do unearth stuff. The goal is for them to unearth stuff and, you know, to, you know, get you to begin to think about some pretty significant things, you know.Donnie Griggs — And so I think it’s really great. I mean, I've heard lots of guys reading it on their own, which is awesome. But I think in my mind, it’s best lived out in like those small group kind of like getting all the men in you know your church to to go through it and to break up into groups and to go through it. And then, you know, I think then like a, in my mind, like then a kind of once a month or once every couple months, you do some kind of a breakfast thing or something and you, you pick up one of these, you know, one of these chapters, one of these kind of aspects, and you just kind of camp out on that a little bit and go, Hey, you know, when we, you know, what does this look like in, you know, in our church? What does like in our community? What is it look like in your lives? And so that’s, I guess, primarily how I imagined it being used. And I’m, I think I’m seeing a lot of fruit from guys using and like that.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s really cool. Love that. if Where do we want to send people to pick up copies of the book? I’m assuming we can get it at Amazon. Is there somewhere else we want to send people to to grab these?Donnie Griggs — Yeah. So um there’s a few different avenues here. So obviously Amazon – straightforward. It’s on Amazon. It’s on Kindle. There’s that. It’s also on Audible because, I mean, you probably know this, Rich. Dudes just don’t read, you know? Rich Birch — Yes. Donnie Griggs — And I mean, I’ve even had guys say, man, I’m I'm like severely dyslexic. I actually can’t read. And, we’ve got a guy who church who reached out just said, like, I’ve got a guy in my church who’s blind. Like, you know and so the Audible thing, um I think a lot of guys are in, they’re just in the car a lot… Rich Birch — Right. Donnie Griggs — …and they’re listening to like the hour long Joe Rogan podcast. You know So you can listen to the whole book in like, I think four hours or something. It’s not it’s easy, you know?Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.Donnie Griggs — So the Audible thing I think is is is another one that point guys to. If like you’re a church and you want to order like a bunch of them, um, I’ll, I’ll work a deal for you and get them to you cheaper than you can get them on Amazon. You can just go to becominggoodmen.org. And there’s a whole thing there for that. Um, and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll make it work for you. Donnie Griggs — And then the last thing is I actually, um, you mentioned machismo earlier and, I’ve done a lot of work, um, in the Spanish speaking world, have a huge heart for that, that part of the world. And, you know, machismo is, ah is a, it’s a big deal. You know, it’s, I have a single lady in our church who’s from Mexico who said she reckons like 9 out of 10 men that she know she grew up around in Mexico have been pretty much have just bought into this machismo kind of thing. And really, it’s created just a huge mess. I mean, and so actually then I actually got the book translated into Spanish. Rich Birch — Oh, very cool.Donnie Griggs — So, so that’s on Amazon too. Unfortunately, not an Audible yet for that. But but if somebody is like, man, you know, I’ve got some Spanish speaking folks that there’s, there’s that avenue as well.Rich Birch — That’s really cool. Well, I love I love all that. And friends, I would encourage you to pick up a copy. I love the idea, the picture. You might be listening into this today and say, hey, you know, you get a couple copies of this book and find two or three other guys. And why don’t we work through it together? And even as a way to say to someone like, hey, man, I want to be your brother, not just your buddy, you know, I think is a great framework, right? for, know, as you’re interacting with with other folks. So I really appreciate this, Donnie. I hope this helps get more people connected with the book and that it helps more folks that are are out there today. Rich Birch — As we wrap up, any final words, any final comments you’d have for a church leader that’s leaning in today and thinking, man, I feel like we got to do a better job on this front.Donnie Griggs — Yeah, gosh, I mean, I just think the time is so right for this. It’s such a necessary thing. So hopefully what I’ve done can be helpful to you. If not, there’s other things out there. But I mean, you know, we we’re living in this weird moment with so much gender confusion. And then you add cultural hostility where all masculinity is deemed toxic and men are unwanted and unneeded. And then you throw in so many of the guys in your church who walk with a limp because they didn’t have a good dad, a good male figure, really poor faux versions of masculinity. I mean, I just want to and say you can’t afford to not think about this. And so, I mean, and I just think it’s one of those things where it’s like if you can, if you can build a culture of of good men in your church, it’ll that tide will lift all the boats.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks so much, Donnie. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?Donnie Griggs — Yeah, oneharborchurch.com has got all the church stuff. And then for me, I’m pretty much, you know, I do some stuff on Instagram and Facebook. I’m not the biggest social media guy in the world. But yeah, but I’m I'm on there pretty frequently.Rich Birch — That’s great. That’s great. Thanks so much, Donnie. Appreciate being here today, sir.Donnie Griggs — Thanks a lot, Rich. Thanks for having me.

Picture this. It’s the year 2000, and a psychology lab at Cornell University is about to ruin a college student’s morning. A researcher hands an undergrad a t-shirt and asks them to put it on. The student unfolds it and sees the face staring back at them: Barry Manilow. Not vintage-cool Barry Manilow. Not ironic, Barry Manilow. Just… Barry Manilow. The kind of shirt that would get you roasted by your roommate before you made it out the door. The student puts it on anyway (this is science, after all) and is told to walk into a room where a group of peers is already seated. Before they open the door, the researcher asks a simple question: “How many people in that room do you think will notice your shirt?” The student thinks about it. They’re about to walk into a room of college kids wearing the musical equivalent of a “kick me” sign. They predict that about half the room will notice. They walk in and sit down. They endure a few minutes of low-grade social agony before the researcher pulls them out and surveys the room. The actual number of people who noticed the shirt? Roughly one in four. The student had overestimated by a factor of two. But the really fascinating part came next. When the researchers repeated the experiment with shirts people would actually want to wear … Bob Marley, Martin Luther King Jr. … the gap blew wide open. Students still predicted that nearly half the room would clock what they were wearing but the real number dropped to fewer than one in ten. A six-to-one overestimate. When the message was positive rather than embarrassing, people paid even less attention [ref]. Psychologists call this the Spotlight Effect. We anchor on our own vivid internal experience and dramatically overestimate how much other people are paying attention to us. Now apply that to your church. You've talked about inviting from the stage, you've put it in the newsletter, and you mentioned it in your staff meeting last month. It feels like you've been beating this drum constantly. But here's what the research suggests: your congregation has barely registered the beat. And that's not because they don't care, it's because human brains simply don't absorb messages the way communicators assume they do. The encouraging news is that the gap between where your church is right now and genuine invite-culture momentum may be smaller than it feels. Your people love your church and they're already in the room, but they need far more persistent encouragement, training, and equipping around invitation than most leaders realize. The difference between stuck churches and growing churches comes down to this: growing churches persistently train, equip, and motivate their people to invite. They don't do it once a quarter but rather build it into the rhythm of everything they do, all year long. You're Tapping, They're Guessing There's a lesser-known study from Stanford that might be the single most uncomfortable data point for anyone who communicates for a living. Researcher Elizabeth Newton asked people to tap out the rhythm of well-known songs on a table while a listener tried to identify the tune. The tappers predicted their listeners would get it right about 50% of the time. The actual success rate was 2.5% [ref]. That's a 20-to-1 gap between what the communicator heard in their head and what the audience actually received. This is exactly what happens in churches every week. A pastor who has spent 20 hours in a sermon text hears a full symphony of meaning, nuance, and application. The congregation hears a series of disconnected taps on a table. And when it comes to broader communication—announcements about serving, reminders to invite, follow-up on events—the gap compounds. An XPastor survey of roughly 200 church leaders found that leaders estimated 44% of their people had forgotten the sermon by Monday, and a cumulative 94% by Wednesday [ref]. Church communication practitioners consistently report the same phenomenon: people approach them after six weeks of announcements asking about events they'd never heard of. If 94% of your congregation has forgotten this week's sermon by midweek, what happened to that invitation challenge you made three Sundays ago? The honest answer is that it evaporated. Don't despair over this because it's just a reason to lean in harder and more consistently than you thought you needed to. The Channels Are Working Against You Even when you do communicate about the invitation, the platforms themselves are filtering your message before it reaches your people. Facebook organic reach has collapsed from 16% in 2012 to approximately 1.2–1.65% in 2025 [ref]. A church page with 10,000 followers reaches roughly 130–165 people per post. Instagram organic reach sits at around 3.5%, and it dropped another 30–40% across all post formats in 2025 alone. A church that posts once on Facebook and once on Instagram and considers the communication job done has reached, at best, about 5% of its online followers. Email is the bright spot for churches, but even it tells a sobering story. Religious organizations have some of the highest email open rates of any industry, which is roughly 30% according to analysis of more than 91,000 church emails [ref]. Those are strong numbers. They also mean 70% of your email list never opens any given message, and more than 90% never click a link inside it. Meanwhile, the average person encounters an estimated 6,000–10,000 marketing messages per day and consciously registers fewer than 150 of them. Your midweek email is competing with thousands of other messages for one of those limited attention slots. None of this means you should stop posting or stop emailing. It means that a single mention through a single channel barely registers. If you want your congregation to internalize the idea that inviting friends is a normal, expected part of following Jesus at your church, you need to show up across multiple channels, repeatedly, over weeks and months. The research on multi-channel communication backs this up: campaigns using three or more channels produced a 287% higher engagement rate than single-channel campaigns [ref], and multi-channel donors give roughly three times more in lifetime value than single-channel donors [ref]. Multiple channels don't just add to your message. They multiply its impact, because each new context creates a distinct memory trace and a separate pathway to recall. Repetition Isn't Annoying. It's How Trust Gets Built. There's a reason the idea of persistent communication makes church leaders uneasy. Nobody wants to be the church that nags. But the science on how humans process repeated messages is remarkably clear, and it doesn't validate the fear. Robert Zajonc's Mere Exposure Effect, first demonstrated in 1968, showed that repeated exposure to a stimulus—with no reinforcement, no reward, no positive association—is enough on its own to increase how much people like it [ref]. A 2017 meta-analysis of 268 exposure curves confirmed that the preference curve rises with exposure and peaks at around 10–20 presentations before beginning to decline [ref]. And that decline is primarily a risk with simple, unchanging stimuli. When you vary the format or channel while keeping the core message consistent, the positive range extends significantly. The effect is actually stronger when people aren't consciously aware of the repeated exposure [ref]. The old Marketing Rule of 7 … the idea that people need seven exposures before taking action …comes from the 1930s movie industry. In 2025, research across industries puts the average number of touchpoints before a decision at nearly 29 [ref]. Seven was the floor almost a century ago. Your congregation needs far more than a single stage announcement and an Instagram post to shift their behavior around invitation. “But We Don't Want to Annoy People” This is the objection every church communicator faces, and it deserves a fair hearing. The fear of over-communicating is real, but the data says the fear is dramatically lopsided. A Stanford study by Flynn and Lide analyzed more than 2,700 archived 360-degree leadership assessments and conducted four additional studies. They found that leaders who miscalibrated their communication were nearly 10 times more likely to be criticized for under-communicating than for over-communicating [ref]. Leaders who under-communicated were perceived as lacking empathy and leadership ability. Leaders who over-communicated were, in the researchers' words, given the benefit of the doubt. The conclusion was clear: over-communication may be seen as a nuisance, but under-communication is seen as a leadership flaw. The email data tells the same story from a different angle. Organizations that send emails only once a month have a 78% higher unsubscribe rate than those that send more frequently. The baseline unsubscribe rate for nonprofits sits at just 0.17–0.19% per send, which is well below the cross-industry average. Your people are not bolting when you show up in their inbox. They're far more likely to disengage when they rarely hear from you at all. There are real tipping points, and it's worth exploring them. Complaints increase meaningfully beyond five emails per week and spike beyond seven. But the resolution from the research is consistent: frequency is not the enemy, irrelevance is. People resist when they feel their autonomy is threatened, and that resistance is triggered far more by tone—guilt-laden, high-pressure, directive language—than by volume. The legitimate risk for churches is not communicating too often about invitation, it's communicating too often with the same generic, unsegmented, ask-heavy content through a single channel. What Growing Churches Actually Do Differently If the research makes one thing unavoidable, it's that shifting an invite culture requires consistent, persistent, long-term pressure across the full breadth of your church's life. Growing churches don't just mention inviting once a quarter during a sermon series on evangelism. They weave it into everything, and they sustain it for years. In working with churches across North America for more than two decades and conducting over 800 interviews with leadership teams from some of the fastest-growing churches in the country, I've found that the churches building genuine invite-culture momentum are consistently working across five interconnected areas. I call them the 5 Gears of Invite Culture, and they function less like a menu you pick from and more like the tumblers in a lock. All five need to turn together. Shareable Weekend Teaching is the biggest lever. When your teaching is the kind of thing people want to talk about at lunch on Sunday, you've created the raw material for invitation. Research from Gallup confirms that sermon content is the primary reason three in four worshippers attend. If your weekend teaching connects Scripture to real life in a way that gives people language they can share, inviting becomes dramatically easier. Eventful Big Days are not the strategy on their own, but they serve as training grounds for invitation. Easter, back-to-school, Christmas—these are cultural moments when people are genuinely more receptive to an invitation, and they give your congregation a natural on-ramp to practice the skill of inviting. The key is to design them backward from the invite and then leverage them to build a weekly rhythm that outlasts the event. Captivating Online Conversations turn your digital presence from a broadcast channel into a relational bridge. The social media reach numbers above make it clear that posting once isn't enough. But when your online presence is built around genuine conversation rather than promotion, it becomes another context in which the invitation message is encoded in a distinct way. Magnetic Community Service gets your people out of the building and into proximity with the people they're being asked to invite. Churches that serve their communities together create the relational bridges that make invitation feel natural rather than forced. Appealing Volunteer Experience may be the most underestimated gear. People who serve, invite. The data is consistent on this point: engaged volunteers become your most enthusiastic advocates. When your volunteer culture is the kind of thing people are proud to bring a friend into, invitation stops feeling like a program and starts feeling like a reflex. These five gears are where the multi-channel science meets the practical reality of church life. Each gear represents a different context in which your people encounter the invitation message, and each creates a separate memory trace and retrieval pathway. When all five are turning together, the effect compounds. When one or two are stuck, the whole engine labors, and that's often the real reason growth feels harder than it should. Find Out Which Gear Is Stuck If any of this research resonated—if you read the tapping study and thought, “that's exactly what's happening with our invite messaging”—then the next step isn't to simply communicate more. It's to figure out where the alignment is breaking down in your specific context. That's exactly what I built the free Invite Culture Audit Workshop to help you do. On Tuesday, May 12th at 12 noon ET, I'll walk you through a practical scorecard that shows where your invite culture is strong, where it's leaking, and which gear to focus on first. You'll see real examples from churches that have moved the invitation from something they talk about to something their people actually do, week after week. And you'll walk away with a 90-day blueprint you can start acting on immediately. This isn't a motivational talk; it's a diagnostic session designed to give you and your team clarity. Sixty minutes, straight to the point, with a concrete plan that fits into your existing rhythms Register for free here: helpchurchleaders.com/invite-culture-audit-workshop Your people love your church. They're already in the room. With the right systems and sustained encouragement, they're closer to becoming a church full of inviters than you think. Let's figure out what's keeping the gears from turning.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Jimmy Scroggins, Lead Pastor of Family Church in South Florida. Under Jimmy's leadership, Family Church has grown into a network of over 20 congregations across multiple languages, all unified under one structure while maintaining local leadership and live teaching at every location. Are you finding your church's energy drifting in too many directions? Wondering how to keep your ministry focused while still doing all the “good things” churches are called to do? Tune in as Jimmy offers a clear perspective on why maintaining a relentless focus on the weekend experience is critical for sustained church growth. A network of neighborhood churches. // Family Church operates as one unified organization—one name, one budget, one leadership structure—but functions like a family of neighborhood churches. Each location has live preaching, local leadership, and contextualized ministry for its community. Like siblings in a family, each campus shares core DNA while expressing it differently based on context, language, and culture. This approach allows the church to scale while remaining personal and locally effective. Why Sunday still matters most. // One of Jimmy's strongest convictions is that healthy churches must prioritize the weekend gathering. When growth slows, churches can be tempted to drift away from focusing on Sunday. Leaders may unintentionally elevate secondary ministries, such as midweek programs or community initiatives, because they feel like wins. However, if Sunday gatherings are not vibrant, engaging, and growing, the effectiveness of every other ministry will eventually decline as well. A healthy weekend service creates the momentum that fuels everything else, and secondary ministries all need to drive back to the Sunday experience. Creating alignment across multiple locations. // One way Family Church keeps the focus on Sunday, and maintains unity across a large multisite network, is through shared sermon planning, common teaching outlines, and collaborative preparation. While each pastor delivers messages in their own voice, the theological direction and structure remain consistent. At the same time, local campuses retain flexibility to adapt to their specific communities, ensuring both consistency and contextual relevance. Developing future leaders intentionally. // A key driver of Family Church's growth is its leadership pipeline. The church utilizes internships, residencies, and student ministry roles to identify and develop future campus pastors. Notably, Jimmy views student pastors as potential senior leaders because their roles require a broad range of skills, from teaching and leadership to administration and pastoral care. By consistently investing in emerging leaders, the church creates a steady pipeline of capable pastors ready to lead new locations. Coaching for continuous improvement. // Teaching quality is a high priority, and every communicator receives regular coaching. Sermons are recorded, reviewed, and evaluated by trusted leaders who provide feedback and track growth over time. Jimmy himself participates in this process, modeling a culture of humility and continuous improvement. Refocusing requires difficult decisions. // For churches that have drifted away from prioritizing the weekend, Jimmy offers a caution: refocusing will require letting go of some good things. Leaders must carefully evaluate where time, money, and energy are being spent, and whether those investments are truly supporting the weekend experience and the church's primary mission to make disciples. To learn more about Family Church, visit gofamilychurch.org and explore their resources and annual leadership conference. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a returning guest today, which, what does that mean? That means it’s somebody I want you to hear from again. Excited to have Jimmy Scroggins with us. He is the lead pastor at Family Church. They’re one of the fastest growing churches in the country with, if I’m counting correctly, 14 campuses in Florida, plus five locations in Spanish and a Portuguese location. That’s a lot of moving parts. Family Church is dedicated to building families in South Florida through a network of neighborhood churches. Jimmy became the lead pastor there in 2008. Super excited to have you on the show again today.Jimmy Scroggins — Hey, man, always glad to be with you and appreciate what you do.Rich Birch — Yeah, encouraging to see you as well again. So why don’t you bring people just up to speed for folks who haven’t been following along with Family Church. Give us a picture where things are at today, your 14 campuses, multiple locations. What’s a network look like today? Tell us all about that.Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah, so actually, depending on how you can, you know, we use the word campus and church interchangeably. So although we are one church organization, one budget, one name, one leadership structure, one constitution and bylaws, we still function a lot from the perspective of an attender like likes independent churches because we have live teaching and live local leadership at every family church location.Rich Birch — Yep.Jimmy Scroggins — And so we have 20 locations. Rich Birch — Okay. Jimmy Scroggins — Then we have some additional, so because some of those are Spanish speaking… Rich Birch — Yep. Jimmy Scroggins — …yeah like Portuguese our Portuguese church has their own campus. A couple of our Spanish speaking churches have their own campus.Rich Birch — Love it.Jimmy Scroggins — Then a couple of them congregations meet on the same campus with an English speaking congregation.Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.Jimmy Scroggins — And so so that’s that’s where we’re at. We have all those different physical locations and several more coming online in the next 12 months or so. Rich Birch — That’s fantastic.Jimmy Scroggins — And we’re really excited about the opportunity that we have to reach people in South Florida. We are not a megachurch. We have but a budget and the total attendance of a megachurch, but that’s in the aggregate. Our largest attended campus on a strong Sunday that’s not Easter might have 1,800 people. Our next one might have 1,500. We have another one that runs about 900. And then the rest of them are like usually with t between 400 and 600. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. That’s really this neighborhood church vision that you’ve been talking about, right? Which is the idea, if I remember correctly, it’s a one hundred locations that you’re hoping for, you’re wondering, you’re asking the Lord. Tell us talk to us a little bit about that.Jimmy Scroggins — We’re talking about a hundred congregations, so they don’t all have to be Family Church. So we felt that we also helped to plant a truly autonomous, independent churches that are not Family Church. And so between that and where we are now with our own locations, we think we’ve started out on 40 something… Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Jimmy Scroggins — …of these over the last 15 years or so. Rich Birch — That’s great.Jimmy Scroggins — And, You know, the number 100 is kind of aspirational. I don’t know if we’ll ever actually get 100. Rich Birch — Right. Jimmy Scroggins — But it’s it’s it’s close enough that we can measure progress, but far enough out there that it feels like, man, we’ve got a lot of work to do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. What what do you, this is like a sidebar question. How do you kind of define the difference between a Family Church, somebody that’s in the network or is a part of the Family Church versus a church plant?Jimmy Scroggins — Sure.Rich Birch — How do you think about the difference between those two?Jimmy Scroggins — Well, I mean, again, our our main markers, the one thing that, well, we say what makes us one church or one church organization is we’d have one name. So like all of our Family churches, if if we do a strategic partnership or a merger with another church, they’re all going to become Family Church. Jimmy Scroggins — We have one constitution and bylaws that we all share. We have one um leadership structure, so they’ll all come into the leadership rubric and structure of Family Church, and we have one budget. So we all pool our resources and then we dispense them to together to fund the work of the different locations that we have.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. So…Jimmy Scroggins — And because we have live teaching, too, you know, we we try not to use language. We usually will correct someone around here if they use language like the mothership… Rich Birch — Right. Jimmy Scroggins — …or the main campus because we don’t we don’t have that.Rich Birch — No, no.Jimmy Scroggins — You know, wherever you attend church, that’s your main campus. Whoever’s your pastor, your preacher, that’s who you want to hear.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jimmy Scroggins — That’s that’s your that’s your lead pastor.Jimmy Scroggins — So we really try to think of it like that.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah, there’s a lot there. And maybe we’ll have you on another time to talk about, you know, how you’re keeping those together and keeping them aligned and focused. Because there’s, you know, I think there’s a lot of people that would aspirationally say, hey, that would be great. But man, I’m just not sure the inner are workings of that. But that’s it for another day. So I’m already setting you up for the next conversation.Jimmy Scroggins — All right. All right. Great. Look forward to it.Rich Birch — But one of the things I’ve heard you talk about is, hey, you know, we got to stay focused on the weekends. We got to stay focused on Sunday mornings. That sounds simple, and the kind of thing, of course, that’s what we do. But what what were you seeing when you think, hey, we got to be focused on Sundays. We got to be focused on that experience as church leaders.Jimmy Scroggins — One of the things that I’ve discovered over my, you know, I’ve been, I’ve been a ministry a long time. I’m 54 years old. This is the only kind of work I’ve ever really been in vocationally. So as I’ve watched, I’ve just watched churches always have this tendency to drift away from a focus and a value on what happens on Sunday morning and towards other things.Jimmy Scroggins — Now, before anybody starts emailing you or emailing me or whatever, I understand. I want to say all, just please assume the best in terms of the caveats, right? Rich Birch — Yep.Jimmy Scroggins — I know that discipleship is the goal, not church attendance. This is not about nickels and noses and all that. That that is really not what I’m talking about.Jimmy Scroggins — What I’m talking about is for a church to have an organizational drive, for a church to have an organizational forward momentum, they have to be succeeding and rallying people at their weekend services. That’s just the way that it is. If you don’t do that well, you are blunting the impact of everything else that you might be doing, whether it’s small groups or home groups or whatever else. Jimmy Scroggins — And again, look, this is not the Bible. This is my opinion. If you, my opinions are all free. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to take it. But I do think that, I do think that in my experience just watching, and and what I watch is when churches begin to get into severe decline, what they do is they usually latch on to some other ministry that’s not Sunday morning… Rich Birch — Right. That’s true. Jimmy Scroggins — …so they can feel like they’re getting a win. And so they’ll start, you know, our, what’s really important around here is our Thursday night ministry to special needs kids.Rich Birch — Yep.Jimmy Scroggins — It’s our orphanage that we own in Haiti. It’s our soup kitchen where we feed the homeless every Monday. And all of those things are awesome things.Rich Birch — Yeah, VBS in the summertime or yeah, whatever those kind of things.Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah, there are things that the church should do, maybe where you are, and those are all godly things, good things, biblical things, faithful things. But the thing of it is, what I watch is churches latch on to those things because they stop believing they can succeed on Sunday morning, and those things take on greater and greater importance.Jimmy Scroggins — But but what what churches find is that eventually, if you don’t make Sunday morning healthy and vibrant and growing, all of the other things that are the auxiliary ministries that are attached to that are going to go away also.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, I love that. In fact, just recently I was with a church where we were talking about similar issues and they were talking about these other things they do. And I was challenging them very similarly. I was said like, listen, that all sounds great. But like, how can we take the energy you’re putting into that and focus it in on the weekend, focus it in on Sunday? What can we do to rather than because it feels diffused? It’s like, you know, you got all these other areas you’re you’re spending your time on. Rich Birch — What does focus really look like for you as you’re coaching, even your team at Family? You say, okay what do what does it look like to kind of have a great weekend that feels like a win? What are some of those kind of telltale signs of, yeah, that that’s a that’s a congregation that’s focused on making that work?Jimmy Scroggins — Well, I think I think there’s organizations such as 9Marks and others who have laid this out pretty clearly. What should be happening when a church is gathering regularly? And so I think I think others have done a really eloquent job of laying these kinds of things out. And I want to go ahead and say I’m for all of 9Marks and all that kind of stuff.Rich Birch — Yep.Jimmy Scroggins — And I really am from the heart. But I also would just say, in terms of some more pragmatic ways that you approach that, obviously being faithful to what the Bible calls a neighborhood church to do. But I think one of the ways i encourage pastors is agreeing that we’re going to be faithful theologically in every way. I want to try to create the kind of church that I want my family to grow up in.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.Jimmy Scroggins — So I’ve got kids, I’ve got teenagers, when I had little ones, when I had preschoolers, what kind of preschool experience do I want my kids to have in a context of a faithful church? Rich Birch — That’s good.Jimmy Scroggins — What kind of children’s ministry experience? What kind of student ministry experience? What kind of music do I think that our family ought to be singing together when we gather on the Lord’s Day? What kind of sermon do I want my wife and my children, what kind of sermon do I need to be hearing when we gather on the Lord’s Day?Jimmy Scroggins — And so that’s what I’m trying to think about. And what you’ll find is, you know, now I’m in a little bit of a different phase because now I have my kids and grandkids go to my church. So what kind of an experience am I hoping that my grandchildren are going to have in the context of a biblically faithful neighborhood church?Jimmy Scroggins — And so I’ve just found that when you think of it like that, it clarifies a lot of things.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jimmy Scroggins — And and it also lets you be authentically who you are. And what I found is that if I will help to create the kind of programming in the context of a biblically faithful church that I want my kids to experience, there’s a lot of people who actually have the same desires. And they might not even be able to articulate it because maybe they don’t have the training or they haven’t thought about it as hard as I have. But when they but become part of it they go, that’s what I’ve always been looking for right there.Rich Birch — Right, right. Well, that’s part…Jimmy Scroggins — And so that’s what that’s what I think.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. It’s a part of being a leader, right, is to identify here are the things that are important to our organization and and how do we keep those front and center and keep them in front of people? And I love that just personal kind of reflection, even, hey, what what am I looking for and how does you know, what do I think God can use? Rich Birch — Well, pivoting a slightly different direction, thinking about what you’re doing at Family Church, you know, when you’re running multiple locations in multiple languages. How do you keep this kind of focus consistent with across all your campus pastors who are leading in very different contexts? You know, I know you’re all in South Florida, but like it’s very different communities you’re in. Jimmy Scroggins — That’s true.Rich Birch — Talk us through how are you, how are you driving unity and continuing to make sure Family Church is Family Church.Jimmy Scroggins — Well, a couple of things, Rich, you know, we’re multisite, but we, so, you know, our, our goal is always family resemblance, not cookie cutter and identical. So the way I think I’ve shared this with on your podcast before, but the Scroggins family, we have eight biological children. None of them are twins. They do have a look because genetics are real. Rich Birch — Yes. Jimmy Scroggins — But they don’t look alike and they don’t want to be alike.Rich Birch — Right.Jimmy Scroggins — They like being brothers and sisters. They like being part of the Scroggins family. If someone else picks on them, they tend to tribe up pretty quick. But there’s a healthy sibling rivalry among all of them. And that’s kind of my idea for how our family of neighborhood churches can work.Jimmy Scroggins — is There’s a family resemblance. We’re all proud to be part of the family. We love each other a lot. We pull for each other really hard. There’s a healthy amount of sibling rivalry. We don’t like other people coming at our coming at our brothers and sisters. And so that’s kind of how I like to posture our churches as much as I can.Jimmy Scroggins — And the way that we keep consistency and camaraderie and chemistry and hold each other accountable is we just have a lot…we call it meals, meetings, and retreats. So we have a lot of meals together. We schedule it. We budget for it. We have a lot of retreats together. We schedule it. We budget for it. We have a lot of face-to-face meetings, more than most churches or leaders would tolerate. But that’s part of how we create culture and how we cultivate culture together.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very good. I love that. Actually, very similar Mark Jobe in Chicago. They have 20 some odd locations as well, all preaching locally. Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah. Rich Birch —And he gave a very similar answer. I said, how do you keep everybody together? And he would kind of look to like well, we all get together for lunch on Monday. That was that was his answer. You know, it’s very similar.Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — Like, hey, we got to keep FaceTime with each other. We got to keep relationally connected. Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s fantastic. What would you say some of the, when you say your campuses have a strong resemblance, sticking with the genetic. Jimmy Scroggins — Sure. Rich Birch — What are some of those markers of the strong resemblance that that are telltale for you?Jimmy Scroggins — I mean, aside from the more superficial things like branding, right? Signage and branding. But also, I would say like our preaching. So we cultivate our sermon series together. Every preacher preaches in their own voice. umThey make every sermon their own, but we do collaborate. We create like a three or four or five point fill in the blank outline together that we all use. Then you have a lot of freedom beyond that, but that does keep a family resemblance. Jimmy Scroggins — Um, even our music, we don’t all have to use the same songs. We don’t, it’s not always in the same style, but we do have a set of songs that we’re using each quarter. And, um, we tend to try to, people have freedom to, to add songs or do something, but we, we, we kind of agree on a catalog of songs that we’re going to focus on for the quarter.Jimmy Scroggins — Our liturgy is similar. So we have certain, like an announcement video that we all play all every church, every campus does. So we all do the same call to worship, reading out loud together congregationally. And we all do the same benediction, you know, that we read out loud congregationally. We all take the Lord’s supper every week.Jimmy Scroggins — We share our baptism. So like,whenever we baptize, we video all of them. And then the following week, those baptisms are shown at every location. Rich Birch — Right.Jimmy Scroggins — So we all rejoice in each other’s baptism. So those are just some things that we’re doing to communicate, hey, we’re all we’re all one.Jimmy Scroggins — At the same time, again, if you go to some of our congregations that majority black, well, it feels like it. I mean, the music’s different. The the preaching style is different. The the the way people react in the room is different. Obviously, if you’re Brazilian and you’re speaking Portuguese, obviously, if you’re, and even our Hispanic churches… One the things I discovered—I didn’t know this because I’m such a redneck—but when I come down here to South Florida, I did not realize that Hispanic is not actually all one thing. There’s actually a lot of different countries that speak Spanish… Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Jimmy Scroggins — …and they speak Spanish differently. And they actually like, they’re different. Rich Birch — Right.Jimmy Scroggins — And so I did not know that. And I never thought about it. And so even those congregations may have some differences.Rich Birch — Some differences. Yeah.Jimmy Scroggins — So that’s how we that’s how we do it.Jimmy Scroggins — Try to maintain family resemblance. Try to maintain Sunday morning excellence. At the same time, giving the preachers and the congregations freedom to reach their own neighborhoods for Christ.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. I’d love to double click on the Sunday morning excellence piece, particularly around teaching. So I get that you’re doing, you know, the kind of team teaching in a sense, here’s the three or four points, we’re kind of all heading in the same direction. What are you doing to ensure that that part of what you do, we know that’s critically important for all our churches, that that part is as high quality as it can be, you know, it’s it’s kind of as engaging as it can be.Rich Birch — What are you doing um from a feedback, coaching, you know, maybe even selection of those campus pastors or the people that are speaking? you wouldn’t call them campus pastors, lead pastors. What are you doing on that front to ensure that that is as high quality as it can be?Jimmy Scroggins — Well, we have a system for that. So we have a couple of guys. We have three or four guys in our church or pastors here that are very gifted and not only in teaching and preaching, but they’re gifted coaches. And so we have a system and I, and a regular rhythm where everyone videos their sermons and then they they email their manuscript and their video to these coaches and then they get feedback. But then they sit down and actually watch the video and get personal feedback from these coaches. And they do this several times a year.Jimmy Scroggins — And we keep a running log on here’s some things that we’ve asked them to work on and improve. And so then when we come back the next time, did they work on these things and are they improving? And so those are the kinds of it’s not perfect, but it is a it is a serious mechanism that we have where…Rich Birch — Yeah.Jimmy Scroggins — And I do it, too. I submit to it as well. We all get coached and we all get better.Rich Birch — I love that. Actually, this is now the second church. I literally was talking to a church earlier this week that is pursuing a secondary communicator to do exactly this. So it’s actually not the lead pastor who they’re who they’re kind of charging with this coaching role on communicators. Talk to me about that. That’s an interesting decision because I think a lot of people would assume, oh, that must be Jimmy’s job. He’s going to be coaching all these people. But talk to me about about your decision to have them do that.Jimmy Scroggins — So one of the things that I do in a church like ours is I delegate a lot of things, but I do not delegate the teaching ministry of the church. So every week, if you go to our, you know, every week I meet for about two hours with everyone who’s preaching this weekend.Rich Birch — Okay.Jimmy Scroggins — So they’re all in that meeting. We’re talking through the sermon. We’re developing this outline. I do that myself. I personally lead the preaching retreats. We have two a year where we’re laying out our calendar. So we’re always 18 months out on our preaching calendar.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jimmy Scroggins — And so those are, that’s just something I, I don’t want to delegate. Um, the teaching ministry of the church belongs to me in terms of responsibility, for the ah oversight of it.Jimmy Scroggins — And so that’s how we do that.But in terms of the coaching, these are all men that I’ve known for a long time that I trust a lot.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Jimmy Scroggins — We’re theologically aligned.Rich Birch — Yep.Jimmy Scroggins — I know the kind of feedback that they are likely to give. I trust it a lot. I know how they do it because I submit to it myself. And part of the reason that I do it is I want to get better. And part of the reason I do it is I want to interact with the coaches.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. That’s great.Jimmy Scroggins — So I, yeah. And so it is my responsibility. But the other thing is, you know, Rich, on coaching, whether it’s student ministry, kids ministry, you know, I’m I’m an ex-athlete. And one thing that athletes do, they get coached all the time, and they get coached by people who usually can’t do what they’re being coached to do.Rich Birch — That’s true.Jimmy Scroggins — So like, you know, when Tom Brady was at his height winning Super Bowls, not one of his coaches could have played quarterback as well as him, but he got coached every week.Jimmy Scroggins — When Tiger Woods was at his peak of golf, he flew Butch Harmon, his swing coach, around his jet. And if Butch could play golf as good as Tiger Woods, he’d have won the Masters. Rich Birch — Right.Jimmy Scroggins — But he was his coach. And so somebody doesn’t have to be better than you to coach you.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s great insight for sure. And, and yeah, that the analogy of, yeah, somebody that’s professional at what they’re doing is getting coaching right in there. And it’s a different skillset than the, the same is true the other way. There’s a lot of people that are pro-athletes who can’t make the jump to coach. They just can’t do that. They… Jimmy Scroggins — That’s correct. Rich Birch — …you know, that’s like a different, it’s a totally different skillset than, than doing the thing that we’re talking about. What about the these key staff, campus pastors in these locations? How are you where are you finding them before they join the team? Are they coming up within? Are you you know what what’s that look like? How are you how are you finding these individuals to lead?Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah.Rich Birch — I know this real pressure point a lot of multisite churches.Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah, well it’s a pressure point for us, too. And we never have enough.Rich Birch — Right.Jimmy Scroggins — But I will say we work at it. So we have an internship program that’s year round. So we’re trying to cultivate college age kids, not because we’re going to hire them necessarily. We hire some, but so that we have a pool of people that we know that are in their 20s that may have an interest in vocational ministry.Jimmy Scroggins — We bring in, in the summers, a cohort of outside college students who are from all over the country. Again, it’s kind of like an eight week where we invest in them, but it’s an eight week job interview also. And so at the conclusion of that, we’re sitting down with our team and going, okay, is there anybody that was here this summer that we would want to hire? Stuff like that.Jimmy Scroggins — We do have a residency program here in English and Spanish. So we’re cultivating, these are for people who are beyond college age and these is our residency is primarily aimed at people who already live here and who are engaged in a career that’s not vocational ministry. And people who are, it’s usually, we’re we’re looking for people who are at a point in their career or their business where they have a lot of control over their own schedule.Rich Birch — Right.Jimmy Scroggins — And then we give them some training. It’s a two year residency program. And then some of them become pastors or lay ministers. Some of them become just highly trained volunteers. That’s another avenue.Jimmy Scroggins — And then we’re networking all the time. So we’re working hard. We try to enter our team and cohorts. We try to travel and be there for college fairs and other things. Because we have to work hard so we have a Rolodex of people that we can call on when when we when we need someone to come fill fill a role.Rich Birch — And out of those, well, first of all, super commendable that you have lots of different avenues. And lots of times when I ask your church that question, they’re like, well, we do this one thing and it’s not working. It’s like, okay…Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah.Rich Birch — …well, it takes more than one thing. You got to do a bunch of different things. Which of those has been the most effective or most fruitful for, or is it kind of a scattershot? It’s all of it for… Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, identifying particularly key leaders.Jimmy Scroggins — They’re all fruitful in different ways. One of the things that we do is we use our student ministry. So when we have full-time student ministers, which we have a bunch of them, we really don’t hire somebody to be full-time as a student pastor unless we think they could be a campus pastor or lead pastor.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jimmy Scroggins — So it doesn’t mean that they will be, but every single person we hire, we think this person’s got the gift mix, they’ve got the teaching gift, they’ve got the want to, they’ve got some administrative ability, they’re a good convener, people tend to come around them. And so we’re trying to identify those people who may not be ready yet in terms of experience or age or family development or whatever, to be a lead pastor, but we want to identify people who we think are on that trajectory, put them in those slots.Jimmy Scroggins — And we do that because student ministry, you know, I was a student pastor for a long time. Student ministers do basically everything that a lead pastor does. They have to prepare messages. They have to rally volunteers. They have to arrange music. They have to oversee events. They have to do funerals and weddings. They have to do counseling. They have to deal with discipline problems. So student pastors, and they have to do it all on shoestring. They tend to be really good at senior pastor stuff after they’ve been doing it for a while. So that’s why we do it that way.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. I love the, just even the clarity of identifying, Hey, we know that the people in this, you know, in this role, those are all people who eventually we could see, you know, if they keep developing, they could be in these roles. That’s a, that’s, that’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Well, this been a fantastic conversation. Getting back to the kind of Sunday focus question. if, if I’m a church leader and I think, man, I think we’re maybe a bit off focus on some stuff. We’re not, we’re not putting enough energy into the weekend. What would your recommendation be to them for pulling back on other things? How do you actually do that in a way that you know doesn’t kind of kibosh? How do we make that transition in a way that that actually propels the church forward rather than you know hindering us? Any thoughts on that?Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah, that’s probably a whole nother podcast, Rich.Rich Birch — Yes.Jimmy Scroggins — But just in brief, I would just say you need to do that very wisely because what you’re going find out is in order to refocus, you’re going to have to either de-emphasize or stop doing something else. And that something else is probably a really good thing that some Christian somewhere ought to be doing. And your church has a constituency of people in it who are super passionate about that thing. Rich Birch — Right.Jimmy Scroggins — And so you gotta be really wise because you just go ripping and slashing, um you’re gonna undercut your own leadership credibility. And in some situations you might undercut your leadership opportunity.Jimmy Scroggins — And so you gotta be really wise about that. But I think minimally, if you could just assess it. So years ago I heard a guy that was really good at organizational leadership. He said, he said if you brought in a consultant from outside and he didn’t know anything about your church, and he didn’t care about anything about it. And he just assessed it and said, you should stop doing this, you should start doing that, you should fix this, you should fire them, you should hire them. He goes, why don’t you just think about what that guy would say and then do it. Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Jimmy Scroggins — So I think there’s a part of that where even if you can’t wisely do everything all at once, I think there is a sense in which you should at least be able to identify what those things would be if you could. And then you begin to chip away at it.Jimmy Scroggins — So the way, I mean, just real clarity is just like, hey man, where’s the money? How who how many how many staff dollars or budget dollars are flowing towards helping Sunday morning succeed and how much of it is flowing elsewhere?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jimmy Scroggins — How many staff members and how many staff hours are directed at other programming versus Sunday morning programming? How much of your brain space as a senior leader is being occupied by other ministries versus Sunday morning? Rich Birch — That’s good.Jimmy Scroggins — And I would just say it doesn’t mean that it should be zero. It just means the clear priority in my mind should be your weekend gatherings. And then a very simple, like a very practical example of how this might work out is let’s take student ministry. So I did that for a long time.Jimmy Scroggins — A lot of churches on like their midweek program on Wednesday nights, whatever night it is, they have a huge group, two or three or four times bigger than the student ministry group that meets on Sunday mornings. Okay, and why is that? Well, we’re reaching the community. Okay, maybe. Maybe you got a bunch of kids that aren’t Christian or whatever, and they come to your thing because it’s fun. and Maybe you’re also collecting some kids from other churches whose youth group isn’t as good as yours, or maybe they don’t have one, or, you know, whatever. There’s there’s a lot of reasons why the youth group on the midweek is is big, and there’s nothing with that.Jimmy Scroggins — But I would just say, my so what I tell my youth pastors is, look, get the biggest group you can on Wednesday nights. I love it. Blow it out. I’m just not evaluating you on that. I’m evaluating you by how many students are here on Sunday mornings. Rich Birch — Right.Jimmy Scroggins — Because because Sunday morning kids come with their families and families are what build churches.Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s good.Jimmy Scroggins — Now they’re going push back and say, so you don’t care about reaching all these lost kids at our public school. No, I actually really do, which is why if that’s something that we’re really passionate about, why don’t you get a job with FCA or Youth for Christ or First Priority? Let’s fund you and, man, knock yourself out as a missionary to the public schools.Jimmy Scroggins — But what we’re trying to do at Family Church is make disciples. And the way we do that is building families. It doesn’t mean that we won’t have kids whose parents don’t go to church. We will and we do. But what I’ve learned over many years is all that activity around people who never whose parents never come bears very minimal fruit compared to the energy we put into parents whose kids do come or likely to come. Those that fruit tends to remain.Jimmy Scroggins — I know we’ve all got anecdotal stories. I do too. Rich Birch — Yes. Jimmy Scroggins — And I know you know I am 100% in favor of student ministry as a missions enterprise, and we want to reach kids and baptize kids. I’m for all of that. We baptize a lot around here. At the same time, everyone at our church knows I’m being evaluated by what happens on Sunday morning. So what I’m doing on Wednesday really needs to be a funnel where I’m catching kids and bringing them into our true discipleship matrix, which is um Lord’s Day worship. So whether they have they’re with their parents or not.Jimmy Scroggins — A Christian who says, I’m a Christian, I’ve been baptized, but I don’t participate in Lord’s Day worship with a neighborhood church. That’s not a, that’s not, they’re not following a biblical pattern and that’s what we’re trying to get kids. So that that’s just an example of how an emphasis on the weekend might flesh out in a local church.Rich Birch — I love the clarity there. And I love the like, hey, you can do that thing, but we got to make sure that there’s a connection between that and this. And if we can’t show that we’re that this thing is going to drive to that thing, to the weekend, we you know, you you probably don’t want to be doing that. I think the clarity that you’re giving your people, I think, is a huge gift there. That’s that’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Well, Jimmy,Jimmy Scroggins — Well, you know, it’s one of the things about what I do is I always sound like I’m 100% positive and like I know what I’m doing. Just to be clear, hey, man, other people do it different. God blesses it.Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah, yeah.Jimmy Scroggins — Praise God for it.Jimmy Scroggins — This is how we do it at Family Church. I don’t think it’s the only way to do it.Rich Birch — Right. No, that’s great. And in fact, actually, that’s a telltale sign I’ve seen in lots of churches would say, would have that same humility to say, hey, we know there’s lots of different ways to do it. This is the way that we’re doing it. Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah.Rich Birch — This is what we believe God’s called us to. But we’re that means we’re called to this thing. We’re going to do it this way. Jimmy Scroggins — Right.Rich Birch — And that clarity, rather than like, hey, we’re always every six months, we’re trying something different. I think that just drives in too many weird directions and the church doesn’t end up being focused enough. Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah.Rich Birch — So yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate your clarity, Jimmy. Well this has been a fantastic conversation today. Any kind of last words as we wrap up today’s conversation?Jimmy Scroggins — Yeah, I would just say again, if you’re a church leader, my my humble encouragement to you is make Sunday morning the best thing that you do. Put your primary and energy into that. And if your Sunday morning is vibrant and healthy and growing and people are being encouraged and taught and trained and they’re serving, then what you’re going to find is all of the other things that you want to do and should do outside of that are likely to be healthier.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?Jimmy Scroggins — You can go to our website, gofamilychurch.org. We have some podcasts as well. Church for the Rest of Us is one. We’ve got another one for ladies called Mom Village. Check all that out. And and we love to connect. Jimmy Scroggins — We also have a we have a we have a conference every March. It’s a one-day conference, very affordable, small, no green rooms, no VIP treatment. But we want people to come with us, make friends with us, and talk church. Rich Birch — That’s great. Jimmy Scroggins — And you can check all that out online or on our website.Rich Birch — Love it. We’ll link to all that in the show notes. I appreciate you, Jimmy. Thanks for being here today.Jimmy Scroggins — Always. Thanks so much, Rich. Appreciate it.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Scott Worthington, Lead Pastor of Hope Church in Las Vegas, Nevada. After serving on staff for over 15 years, Scott stepped into the lead pastor role in 2022 following founding pastor Vance Pitman. In this conversation, Scott shares candid insights from that transition—what he learned, what surprised him, and how he's helping the church move forward in a new season. Are you navigating a leadership transition—or preparing for one? Wondering how to honor the past while leading into the future? Scott offers practical wisdom on succession, culture, and leading through change with humility and clarity. When transition happens faster than expected. // Scott's transition didn't follow a long, multi-year succession plan. While there had been informal conversations about the future, the actual handoff happened in a matter of months when Vance stepped into a new national role. Moving from a worship/creative role into the senior pastor seat required rapid adjustment. One of Scott's biggest realizations was that strong personal relationships don't eliminate the complexity of leadership transition. Even with deep trust, there were moments of tension, especially when his leadership instincts differed from the mentor who had shaped him. Learning to lead without feeling like he was disappointing his former pastor became a key internal challenge. Hold tightly to mission, loosely to strategy. // As Scott stepped into leadership, he quickly identified what could not change: the church's mission, vision, and core discipleship philosophy. For years, Hope Church had emphasized abiding in Christ as the foundation of ministry, rooted in John 15. That DNA remained non-negotiable. However, strategy was a different story. Scott embraced the idea that while the mission is fixed, methods must evolve. Ask the hard question: are we making disciples? // Early in his leadership, Scott gathered his team and asked a deceptively simple but weighty question: Are we actually making disciples? While there were encouraging stories of life change, the broader picture required honest evaluation. The disruptions of COVID had reshaped engagement, and the church needed to recalibrate. This question became the catalyst for new strategic direction, pushing the team to rethink how they measured spiritual growth and engagement. Introducing “spiritual cartography.” // One of the key strategic shifts Scott led was helping people identify where they are on their spiritual journey – a concept he calls “spiritual cartography.” The church began consistently communicating that everyone is somewhere spiritually and every Jesus follower has a next step. This language became embedded in sermons, staff culture, signage, and communication. To support this, they developed a simple “Discovery Tool” that helps people assess their current spiritual stage and identify next steps. Listening before leading. // In the early days of transition, Scott prioritized listening over directing. Rather than immediately implementing changes, he met with every department on staff, asking questions about culture, strengths, and areas for growth. Importantly, he resisted the urge to defend or explain, focusing instead on gathering insight. These conversations provided valuable data that shaped future decisions. His posture of humility helped build trust across the team during a potentially fragile season. Growing into the role. // One of Scott's personal challenges was preaching. Having only preached 37 times before becoming lead pastor, he knew this was an area for growth. He joined a preaching cohort, studied extensively, and committed to getting reps. Over time, he began finding his own voice and learning not to imitate his predecessor but to lead authentically while still reflecting the influence of years under his leadership. A final reminder for leaders. // Scott closes with a powerful encouragement: ministry flows from intimacy with Jesus, not activity for Him. Leaders can easily drift into busyness and neglect their relationship with Christ. But as he reminds us, apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. True fruitfulness comes from abiding in Him. To learn more about Hope Church, visit hopechurchlv.com or follow @hopechurchlv on social media. Plus, don’t miss Hope’s spiritual cartography Discovery Tool. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is one of those issues that literally thousands of churches across the country are at some phase of working on. And so I know that this is going to be a practical conversation for you. Excited to have Scott Worthington with us today. He is the lead pastor at Hope Church, a church in Las Vegas. It’s a multisite church with three locations, if I can count correctly, in Nevada. They were founded in 2001 by Vance Pitman, and then he passed the baton to Scott, who stepped into the senior pastor role in 2022. Super excited to have Scott on the show today. Welcome. So glad you’re here.Scott Worthington — Thank you so much, Rich. It is a privilege. Grateful to be here with you today.Rich Birch — I’m honored that you’re you’re here and taking some time out. I know you’ve lots going on. Tell us a little bit of the Hope Church story, kind of cast a bit of the picture. If we were to arrive this weekend, what would we experience, that sort of thing?Scott Worthington — Yeah, Hope Church is an incredible church here in Las Vegas, as you said, three locations, three congregations what we call them. And yeah, I began to attend Hope Church right out of college in 2006, 2007, and been here for, I guess, 20 years now.Scott Worthington — And Vance Pitman, you mentioned his name. He was my pastor. He is the founding pastor here. He planted this church in 2001. Three dudes from the South moved to Las Vegas, Nevada, and 18 people started in his living room. It’s an incredible story of just church planting, and I don’t know how much we’ll get into that, but obviously that’s not my story to tell. That’s his, but it really is a miracle of God of what he’s done here. Scott Worthington — And then, yeah, Vance was my pastor for 16 years. I started as an intern in the student ministry and kind of just as God opened doors, walked through those doors, and eventually, I was the most surprised guy in the room when when Pastor Vance tapped tapped me on the shoulder in 2022, and he was being called to go lead a church planting organization here in North America. And yeah, he said, I think you’re supposed to be the senior pastor.Scott Worthington — And so we walked through our whole process, and it has been such a privilege now going on four years of leading the church that I’ve loved for 20. So it’s been a it’s been a wild, amazing, ah grace-filled ride, man.Rich Birch — Love it. I am looking forward diving into that today and helping people understand kind of what you learned through that process a little bit. I wonder if we could start, what’s your like, you know, you’re at a conference or you’re talking to somebody and they’re like, explain to me how the transition went. What’s the kind of the two minute version? I know it’s like, there’s a lot there, but how, how, how did that from that initial conversation through till, okay, you know, you’re now the lead pastor. What’s that look like?Scott Worthington — Yeah, the transition in the beginning, I would say it was it was really great. And and and the things that I’ll share publicly here is they’ve all been dealt with and things have been reconciled.Rich Birch — Yes.Scott Worthington — I’m so i’m so grateful. Pastor Vance is actually coming—our 25th anniversary is this September, and he is coming to preach our 25th anniversary. I’m so, so looking forward to that. Scott Worthington — But you know In the beginning, there’s there’s multiple ways to do transitions. Of course, there’s so many. Some people, especially when you got a kind of larger than life guy like Pastor Vance, they they’ll bring in another kind of larger than life big name somewhere. And we just felt like, and I say we, that was our whole lead pastoral staff, our stewardship team, which is our board. We just felt like um that that wasn’t the that wasn’t the move for us, that God wasn’t leading. Scott Worthington — I wasn’t so much a part of those conversations because my name was the leading name. And Vance just said, I think God has raised up the next leader right from within. And so that’s already a little different in that sometimes it’s like a five-year run or a six-year run and it’s like there’s a whole plan. This was this was a matter of months. I’m going from being one of the worship pastors here to being the lead pastor. And it was it it was very healthy in the beginning. And even even throughout the hard, it was good. And God’s grace has been all over it. But man, we just didn’t know what we didn’t know. Scott Worthington — One of the things we took for granted, I think, is that because of the relationship between Vance and I—I mean, he was my pastor for 16 years. We had a podcast together. I mean, we traveled together. I was the student pastor to his kids. I mean, it’s one of my really, really good friends, my mentor, my my pastor. Scott Worthington — And some of the advice that many people have written books on and done podcasts on and what what you should do in transition, frankly, we just thought, I don’t know if we need to do that. I mean, it’s Scott and Vance. It’s it’s it’s all good. And and there was just things that we didn’t know. I didn’t know how to handle. I don’t know if he knew how to handle. And again, I want to be careful. I don’t want to put words in his mouth. We’ve talked a lot about all this. I can speak for me. Scott Worthington — When Vance had an opinion that may have differed from mine in the way I should be doing something, I didn’t realize how hard that was gonna be for me to feel like I was disappointing my pastor. You know what mean? Rich Birch — Interesting. Scott Worthington — And really, really good, deep conversations have been had since then. But yeah, of course, you know we all know theologically, Joshua isn’t called to be Moses. You know, Joshua had to do things differently. And and it was harder for me to do that than I realized, Rich.Scott Worthington — It was it was harder for me to go right when I’ve been trained so long to go left by Pastor Vance, but I really felt God leading us right in some ways. And that was actually more difficult for me than I than I anticipated.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to double click click on that part, because I think that that the core of all of these transitions, right, is this tension of like, hey, there’s some stuff that’s essential to preserve. And then by definition, like I think that’s a really apropos, you know, Moses to Joshua, I think is a really good, vivid example. There’s also things that need to evolve and change. How what helped you distinguish between those two as you think about, hmm, here’s some stuff we should really keep. And then here’s some stuff we should maybe start thinking differently about.Scott Worthington — Yeah, I would say to start with the what I needed to keep, I mean, I’ve been discipled here. I didn’t give my life to Christ at this church, but I joke and say, I wish God would have saved me at this church. So would have literally been, you know, the entire story. But I got saved here in another church in town and and quickly kind of made the transition through some circumstances here to Hope.Scott Worthington — But everything I know about ministry, I learned from, from, this church and from pastor Vance. And, uh, I mean, my wife and I were married to this church. We began having kids in this church. I’ve I’ve, joked that my entire adult life has been lived in the context of discipleship at Hope Church. And so all of the things, I mean, our mission, our vision, our values, everything has shaped me as a husband, a father, a Jesus follower, a pastor.Scott Worthington — You know, I’m so grateful that God’s given Vance, such a platform around the world. I mean, he he literally travels all over the country and all over the world preaching about this idea that of John 15, right? Apart from him, we can do nothing. That our our primary call is to intimacy with Jesus, not ministry for Jesus. And I mean, these are things that I just rattle off because they’re so in me. And and that was what was so embedded in the culture of Hope Church from the very beginning when it was 18 people in his living room, now to thousands. And I knew there’s no way I could do anything other than that.Scott Worthington — And so, you know, our mission, our vision is hasn’t changed. We we exist to connect people to live life with Jesus follower. And we believe a Jesus follower abides in Christ, connects in community and shares in the mission. I mean, these are things that I’ve heard for years 20 years and I’m still preaching to this day because they’ve changed me.Rich Birch — Right. Yep.Scott Worthington — Those were things that were, I mean, they, those were not changing. But I think it’s that old Andy Stanley line, you know, you, you marry the, the, the mission and you date the strategy. And so there were some ways that we were—and I might’ve butchered that. I have no idea. Sorry, Andy, if you listen…Rich Birch — It’s fine. Exactly.Scott Worthington — Yeah, I knew there were some things strategically that maybe we could start to play with that would help people deeper abide in Christ, connect in community and share in the mission.Scott Worthington — So those were the things that we started as a team. And that’s what I’m I’m also grateful for, the tracks that Vance laid down of of doing things together with with a plurality of elders. And so this isn’t me on a mountain, you know, coming up with the ideas and and and saying, this is this is what the Lord says. Scott Worthington — There’s an incredible team of pastors around me, especially as I’m I’m younger in the pastorate here, helping me make those decisions and helping me understand what what we should be. And of course, I’m I’m driving with vision, but man, they are such gifts to me. And and that was all stuff that I I picked up the baton from Vance. He led that way. And so I’ve tried to to continue that and and really tap into the guys around me.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I’d love to double click on that around some strategic decisions that you’ve sensed with your team. Hey, there we need to maybe to go in a new direction. What led you to that? What was kind of the data? What were you seeing? What what was the the thing that kind of precursed even making those decisions? And then if there’s an example of one or two, that’d be interesting as well.Scott Worthington — Yeah. So of of course, every person listening this podcast, they know, man, COVID was just such a shakeup for everybody. Rich Birch — Yep.Scott Worthington — And we were interesting because not only do we have COVID here and, you know, I know depending on where you’re listening, you had different restrictions and all that, but we, we, we had a lot ah here in in Vegas. We we had really taken a lot of our cues at that time from California. And so if you know what California did, we were, we were kind of right behind them. Scott Worthington — And yeah, we, so we, going into kind of reopening, if you will, we also just built a new building. And so we had a new building, reopening, the shakeup that COVID brought all of us. Then it sounds like a long time, but we know one or two years of ministry goes by in a flash. And so within one or two years of kind of reopening and reestablishing who our church really is, not just, you know, watching on YouTube, but also in the room and really the the core of the community, that’s when the transition happened. So it all happened so fast. So we really had to take a step back and go, okay, who, who is our church? Are we making disciples, right?Scott Worthington — That’s just our our mission to connect people to live a life of Jesus follower is just a contextualized version of the Great Commission, right? To make disciples. So are we doing that? And that’s a that’s a hard question to ask because you you got to be prepared to really deal with the results, right? Scott Worthington — Like when you ask your leadership team, and that’s what I did that very first lead team retreat we took two months after I began leading Hope. um I said, guys, I’m gonna ask a question that sounds silly, but it needs to be asked. Are we making disciples? Are we making, ah helping people abide in Christ, connect to community and share in the mission? And of course we have stories of like, yes, this person that just recently got saved, you know, out of the harvest, into the harvest kind of thing.Scott Worthington — But when you really started to drill down kind of on this new, I hate to say new church, but I mean, out of COVID, we all know… Rich Birch — Sure. Scott Worthington — …man, it was, they were like, you’re making new people, it’s growing. And then you’re going, wait, where’d all those other people go? That they got used to Sundays by the pool… Rich Birch — Right. Scott Worthington — …you know, like, and we’re we’re just asking good, hard questions that I think leads you to start making strategic choices that, that pushed the mission forward. And so, yeah, we’re we’re asking those hard questions and then we’re saying, okay, does the the does the strategy we used to have, does that accomplish the mission now in this season and this time?Scott Worthington — And of course, we we saw some fruit there, incredible fruit, but new leader, new season, in some ways, a lot of a new church. Let’s move forward with maybe some different strategic initiatives. Scott Worthington — And that’s when we started to to kind of ask the question, which will lead to maybe some practical stuff, where are people spiritually? That’s kind of where we’ve been leading over the last few years. Asking a question, you know, the the super nerdy form of this is is spiritual cartography. It’s really nerdy. But like really helping people understand everyone is somewhere spiritually. We want to so help you see where you are spiritually and then help you take a next step. And really just like putting it on the bottom shelf. How do we help people grow in their faith and take next steps? And that’s basically kind of the strategy we’ve been operating off of for the last couple of years. And it’s it’s been incredible.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. I love that. I wonder if you could, you know, give us a little bit of detail around that spiritual cartography. Love that. That’s a great turn of phrase. But how how are we how are you helping people see more clearly where they are and then provide those steps that maybe looks a little different? It’s been a shift than, say, 10 years ago kind of thing as a church.Scott Worthington — Yeah, I’d say, you know, everyone, again, leaders listening know this, but it starts with language. So we just started very strategically saying a couple of things. Number one, saying, hey, we believe everyone is on the spiritual journey somewhere or everyone is a certain place on the spiritual journey.Scott Worthington — And we believe every Jesus follower has a next step. I like that language because it connects our mission to the strategy, right? If we exist to connect people to live the life with Jesus follower, we say, hey, every Jesus follower has a next step. If it’s about following Jesus, I joke with our church, not to insult your intelligence, but following Jesus implies movement. It implies you are taking steps. You cannot be following if you’re standing still.Scott Worthington — And you know this, but I mean there there are people in churches that have checked all the boxes: I give, I serve, I got baptized. And then they think, I’ve checked all the main assimilation boxes. I guess I must be done growing. And we know that is not the case. There’s always more of Christ. There’s always more of of his movement in our lives. Scott Worthington — And so that was language that we just, I mean, I end every email with that. We we talk about that in staff meeting. I mean, we are constantly using where are people on the spiritual journey and how do you take your next step? Or their staff, I’m I’m encouraging what’s, what’s your next step?Scott Worthington — With me, I’m always saying, Hey, I believe God’s leading me in my next step to this. And so language, I think starts it. And then of course you’ve got to give people handlebars. You’ve got to, and of course, including language, by the way, is is signage. I mean, there’s signs all over our campus now that, Hey, we want to help you take your next step.Scott Worthington — And then we developed what we call our Discovery tool, which I think has been really helpful tool that we’ve given people. It’s it’s very simple. It is, I think it’s 20 questions that just gauge to help people understand where they are on their spiritual journey.Scott Worthington — And I know some people might be thinking, well, that sounds like you’re labeling folks. And that is the number one pushback that we get on this. And I get it. I get it. People think if you tell people that where they are on the spiritual journey, they’re gonna feel like they’re labeled and they they can’t, you know whatever it may be. And I think Dallas Willard said, I’ll probably butcher this quote too, but he said, the only thing worse than helping people see where they are spiritually is not helping people where they are spiritually.Rich Birch — That’s good.Scott Worthington — Like it’s one of those, like, yes, there are dangers, if you will. Because you know, on the wrong hand, somebody could weaponize it and be like, well, you’re this way spiritually and I’m this way spiritually. But at the end of the day, as a church, we want to help people take next steps in their faith. Rich Birch — Yep. That’s good.Scott Worthington — And so that tool has been really helpful. So there’s like wayfinding signs all over our campus where they can scan a QR code and and take that tool. And we do that in our services. And we’re trying to help people just take a next step.Rich Birch — That’s great. I love that. That’s so good. Maybe we’ll link to that. I think I’ve seen that actually on your site or I saw that somewhere when I was poking around to even give people a sense of that. Don’t take the test though, friends. Just look at it because we don’t want to stuff your system with a bunch of you know bad data. But yeah, that’s that’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Pivoting a little bit to your team. So one of the interesting dynamics when any you know there’s a kind of lead pastor transition is obviously there was a team there when when you joined and they’re amazing people that God’s been using them, done great things. But a part of your early job is to assess kind of where things at and staff health and try to gain actual kind of insight from them and to think about the future.Rich Birch — When you think about those early days, what were you doing to to kind of establish yourself and and assess where things were at with your team?Scott Worthington — Yeah, I, again, because of the nature of our transition, I was not a new guy, right? That was, ah that I think is a lot of of transition leaders. They’re going, all right, need to establish myself and people need to get to know me. I’ve been here, ah there’s one other guy that’s been on staff longer than I have at this point. He’s one of my best friends. He’s still on our staff. He’s incredible. He’s been here 20 years. I’ve been here 19. Scott Worthington — And ah so I’m a known… it wasn’t like, hi, my name’s Scott. Let me let me get to know you. But now that I am the leader, what I wanted to do is I wanted to get to know the culture. I wanted to get to know what, What is really happening on our staff level, especially through a transition? You know, people people get all kinds of feels. And some people are like, uh-oh, what’s going to happen? Or some people may be excited or what it may be. Scott Worthington — So actually sat down, I recommend, depending on your size of or scope, whoever’s listening, this could be really helpful or maybe impossible to do. But you know, we had at that time probably a staff of about 80. And I literally brought every staff team in. You know, so you got small groups and worship and you know whatever it may be, break up with your departments. And whether it was the lead pastor of that ministry or the intern, I invited them all in.Scott Worthington — And I had them, I asked them five questions and I said, the point of this little 20 minute meetup is for me to talk less and you to talk more. I’m just going to take notes. And I asked, they were all culture questions. Where do you feel you know where do you feel most motivated for the mission right now at Hope Church? Stuff like that. Very much like, where do you feel like we have a strong culture and where do you feel like we need to grow as a culture? And I tried to be true to my word. I gave the questions and then I shut up and let them talk.Scott Worthington — And man, to hear, you know, the intern right next to the lead pastor of that ministry, just share honestly. And I didn’t give feedback. I didn’t defend. And there were things that you wanted to, right? You wanted to go, well, wait a minute, let me tell you why that is. And I just knew I’m getting data right now that will help me make decisions to help shape the culture that we want here at Hope. Rich Birch — Sure. Scott Worthington — And not to say that the culture was bad. Of course, I’m not saying that.Rich Birch — Yeah.Scott Worthington — But again, new leader, I need to see kind of what we’re dealing with it as you go forward and where people’s hearts and minds are as we as we walk through a major transition with our founding pastor. And so that was super, super clarifying and helpful for me as the leader. Then I can make decisions with my team to help um you know drive that culture to a better place.Rich Birch — That’s cool. The church has continued to grow and impact people, which is incredible. And that’s, you know, I think both to you, you know, to both of you guys’ credit… Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch — …to that you, you handled this transition in a way that it wasn’t like, Hey, things collapsed. So, you know, you just honor you for that. That’s, that’s incredible. Rich Birch — When you think about those early, you know, maybe year or two, what were some early signs that you felt as a leader, okay people are with me. Like this is, because there’s the like, there’s the someone’s going to take over, this is being foist upon you, but then eventually people decide are they going to follow you or not. Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch — What were some of those signs, where you’re, oh no, I think I think that’s going to work; people are going to follow me.Scott Worthington — Yeah, I think, man, it was just, it’s, it’s all God’s grace because, yeah, I know looking back now I was, I made some mistakes. You know, there’s that balance and anybody who’s, who’s led a transition knows this. Like there’s the balance of wanting to, you know, wanting to continue to do what, what God has been doing here at Hope. But then, you know, okay, I think I have this idea. And, you know, we, we did a couple ideas that were like, those are great. And then a couple ideas that were like, that was horrible. Let’s never do that again. Rich Birch — Love it. Scott Worthington — And even even through those, you know, some hard conversations with some longtime members that that had some questions. By the way, I think that’s another great tip. Like invite those in. And when somebody’s been at our church for 8, 10, 12, 20 years, and they request a meeting, it’d be really easy for me to be like you know, Come on, old timer. No, man, these are gifted saints who have given so much to this church. Like I would relish a meeting and and a lunch with them, even if it’s hard to hear. Scott Worthington — There were some, there were some like, hey, I got i got some questions on what we’re doing. And ah yeah, I would say, man when when even through some of that, God was continuing to save people here. Our baptism numbers are are higher than they’ve ever been. And I know, you know, I’m pretty hard on myself. So I know the mistakes that I’ve made. I know that, I mean, gosh, anybody who’s listened to this, who knows who Vance is, I don’t say this because I’m on a public podcast. I’ve said this behind closed doors. He’s one of, if not my favorite preacher of this generation. I mean, the dude can preach the paint off the walls. And up until this, this a funny little nugget up until, you know, I wasn’t the preacher here. I wasn’t even the secondary preacher. I was, I preached six or seven times a year. I was the one of the worship guys. I led the creative ministry. And when I began to lead Hope Church, I counted them because they’re all on one file on my computer. I had preached 37 times to adults in my whole life. Scott Worthington — Which, even if you hear that, like, that’s kind of crazy that Vance would hand off the baton to somebody who preached 37 times. So I knew, listen, I need to grow in my preaching. I’ve preached, you know, less than a few dozen times and I’m taking over for one of the greatest preachers ever. And a guy that I’ve sat under is preaching for 16 years and just grown so much. So all of that, and still God’s growing our church. Still people are getting baptized. It shows a couple of things, Rich. It’s not, it has nothing to do with me. It’s all his grace. But also they they do they do trust me.Scott Worthington — There were there were there were elements and and and initiatives we did and things we we we tried and and people showed up and and people were encouraging. And it was like, man, there there are glimpses of God’s grace that they’re with us. Not just me, my my leadership team. And and ah those were pretty evident really early on. And and I praise God for that, man, because those were those were wind in our sails.Rich Birch — I’d love to hear more about what you were doing to grow your preaching. That’s incredible. i think there are oftentimes in a transition like this, the the person that people are looking for is the like, who’s the person that’s been up 20 times a year or whatever. Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch — So what have you done to grow that side? What’s what’s that development track look like for you?Scott Worthington — Yeah, right in the beginning, I jumped into a I jumped into a preaching cohort that was a kind of a national thing that I that I got a part of. And I got to be a travel a few places with a group of guys for eight months. And and we just we just learned how to be better preachers from some of the best in the world. It was awesome. Scott Worthington — And I’m just a natural learner. And so I’ve just devoured the preaching books. And and then I knew everyone, you can do all that. At the end of the day, it’s reps, it’s reps.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.Scott Worthington — So as I look back at like those first couple months of sermons, I could tell I was I was trying to be, not trying to be Vance. I don’t think I’ve ever done that. But you know trying, it was just a little outside of me. And I praise God for the grace that our church has given me. But I feel like now I’m I’m finally a few years in finding my voice and finding what I’m good at and what I’m not.Scott Worthington — And and and so, yeah, it’s just it’s reps. But then also just learning from the pros, man. dDoing preaching cohorts and, you know, doing, you know, online modules and and and then listening to a ton of preaching and eating the meat, spitting out the bones. And I think all of that maybe just kind of contributed. And and I praise God, I’m still 39 years old and I have more than 37 reps under my belt now, but it’s still not a lot in comparison to many guys listening to this. And I can’t, I joke, I was like, I can’t wait to see the preacher I am at 50 years old. Another 11 years, man, I can’t wait. I can’t wait.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. That’s fantastic. Well, and that is, you know, there’s an interesting tension there I’ve said. So I’m not, um I used to think I was a good communicator and then I worked for some really great communicators. And so then I was like, oh man, I’m not very good at this. But, and so I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this part of what we do. And there is an interesting thing where, um like I’ve said to people, when we would have someone come and guest speak, you know I would say, listen, you you can’t ignore the community. The fact that the community has been developed under Vance teaching… Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and they’re they’re used to that. And so it’s not that you you don’t need to imitate him… Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch —…but you would you would be dumb to not at least consider that as you’re preaching, right? You need to think through, you can’t be like, oh, maybe something’s totally different because it’s just hard to make that transition. And so you’ve got to at least consider that in the in the transition.Scott Worthington — And the thing with that is, again, because of the nature of our transition, some things just naturally come out, not because I’m trying to be Vance, but it’s because I’ve sat under his teaching for 16 years, right?Rich Birch — Yes, 100%. 100%. Scott Worthington — Like it naturally comes out of me Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Scott Worthington — And it’s not like, oh, he’s copying Vance. It’s like, no, I’m i’m actually being the disciple that God raises up… Rich Birch — I’ve been influenced. Yeah. yesScott Worthington — …in churches that you are in for a long time.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, 100%, which is great, which is fantastic. So think I want you to put on kind of the theoretical hat. I want you to think about two different groups of people. First, the the successor is kind of the heir apparent sitting in a church today. They’re waiting in the wings. They haven’t been identified maybe even publicly, there’s been some conversation. What would you say to that person to be working on? I know that wasn’t your situation. It was kind of jumped quickly, but I would love to get your thoughts. What would you say to a leader that reaches out to you and asks, you know, hey, what what advice would you give them?Scott Worthington — I would say, yeah, and and just to to rewind real quick, it’s funny, there actually was, when Vance and I were doing our podcast, you know before and after a podcast, there would be these kind of these kind of statements of like, man, one day in eight or nine years when I retire, I think you’re the guy. But again, that was eight or nine years. So there was definitely kind of talks and it seemed like Vance kind of knew at some point, but then when he got the call to go lead the church funding organization, it was it just kind of got you know shifted into into… Rich Birch — Accelerated. Yeah. Scott Worthington — …yeah, accelerated, yeah. So, but I would say, man, in those in those moments, I just I just tried to remain humble and like, God, if if this is if this is what you want, awesome. If if it’s not, I also love what I’m doing.Scott Worthington — One of the things that I think, again, kind of feels weird saying this, but I’ve been you know told this and I do I do affirm it. I think one of the reasons why God opened the door and and put it on Vance’s heart and the leader’s heart at the time to to ask me to step into this is this was not something I was like shooting for. Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s goodScott Worthington — And and you know I got one of my best friends got back to plant a church in New York, New York City next year. We’re sending them out in in a couple months. Like he knew from a very early age that God put on his heart to plant a church. I’m not saying that’s bad. I think there are guys listening, people listening to this right now that are like, I am called to plant a church. That’s awesome. Or or called to lead a church. That was just not my story. Scott Worthington — I, whether I was a student pastor or the worship pastor, like I was grateful to be a part of whatever God had me doing. And it’s it’s that idea that Jesus says, right? Being faithful with little and then maybe being entrusted with much. And that doesn’t mean you’re always gonna get the top seat on the organization. But I was just like, okay, Lord, if that if that’s what you have for me one day when Vance retires, awesome. Prepare me now for that. Scott Worthington — And we know, again, back to Joshua and Moses, we know, man, Joshua shows up way back in the story. And he’s just the he’s just the dude that sent out to be a spy. Nobody at the time knew that he was going to be the leader, but God knew. And Joshua was faithful with what he had in front of him. Rich Birch — That’s good.Scott Worthington — Because I also have heard of transitions getting weird where like it doesn’t happen. Right? The heir apparent is like behind the scenes. It’s it’s it’s stamped and then five years come and go. And it’s like, hey, I don’t think this is it. And so if you put all of your eggs and like, I am the guy, rather than just holding it open to be like, Lord, this is what right now seems to be the plan. But you know many are the plans of a man, but the Lord directs the steps. So um yeah, I would say remain humble, remain dependent and ah be faithful in what’s put in your hands now. And if he opens that door, joyfully walk through it because his grace will sustain you.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. And the the other person I’m thinking about is somebody is in like the first 90 days, this transition has just taken place. When you look back to the early days of your transition, either what did you wish somebody said to you? Or maybe here was something that went well. Or, you know, maybe here’s here’s a pothole that I want you to avoid, and particularly in that first window, the first couple months, as you’ve started to walk into that.Scott Worthington — Yeah, it’s kind of the, I feel like pretty, pretty age old advice, but, you know, be careful with how fast you try to change things. I don’t think there’s a couple of things that I did that I definitely would go back and go, hey, that was, that was not, not wise. But I got some, some great advice. I had some great guys around me. And I think you have to listen more than you talk in those early days. You’ve you’ve got to learn, and again, it depends on if you’re the new guy or you’re like me, you came up in the organization, but you’re still now the new at the new seat. There’s still just a lot of learning.Scott Worthington — I mean, I remember the first time I sat down, it was it was before the official transition, of course, but it was it was right right around the summer of ’22 when I first sat down with like the the financial books for the first time. And I’d never seen any of that. And I just knew in that moment, I have so much to learn. That was an area that I just had never even even been in a back room in. And so um it was just, again, that humble posture. Like I have so much to learn here and I need to ask a lot more questions than I need to give directives. I need to ah I need to listen more than I need to talk.Scott Worthington — Of course, there’s moments when I’m leading my staff and all the things where I need to give vision and direction. And I’m not saying abdicate your responsibility as a leader, but um man, you don’t know what you don’t know, especially in those first 90 days. And I would even say six months to a year… Rich Birch — Right. Scott Worthington — …where you’re just learning things. And then I just took a lot of people out to coffee, lot of people to lunch in our church. And I just, I started to ask questions about how they feel about the culture of Hope and how we can grow and how we can get better. Scott Worthington — And yeah, I gave my staff a lot of access. Some people will be like, oh, that’s dangerous. I literally put a glass door in my office and I said, hey, at any point you guys want to swing by if you got questions about what you see. I’ve called them just softball tosses. Like what are those softball tosses that you can do, you know, eating lunch in the break room, if you if you have a break room, or taking your staff to lunch. Because people are looking for you to become now the bougie senior leader that doesn’t have time for the staff.Scott Worthington — At least that’s been in my spirit. Like people are looking like, oh, now, you know, now Scott’s the the top guy. And I just was like, I’ve never been that guy. I’ve never been the the guy that isolates. And so I’m still going to eat my lunch in the break room. I’ll never forget. We had a staff member come in and it was like three weeks after the transition. She said, what are you doing in here? And she was genuinely shocked that I was eating lunch in the break room. And I laughed and I said, I’ve been eating lunch in this break room for 15 years. And and that was an easy win. Like that created a culture. Scott Worthington — And now I eat lunch with our staff in the break room. And I know, you know, depending on the the scope this scope and scale of whoever’s listening, that could be different. But a large church like us, like they they didn’t expect that from me. And so um it was an easy win. So man, look for easy wins. Listen more than you talk and and just be humble that that you’re going to learn a lot in those those early days.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I think the the posture of humility goes a long way. And it’s interesting how those, it’s like a relatively small thing, but like something as simple as like, hey, you know, eat in the break room, I think can can speak volumes to people and earn you chips… Scott Worthington — Yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — …for then, you know, other things that are coming. Scott, this has been a super helpful conversation. Any last words as we wrap up today’s conversation?Scott Worthington — Yeah, I would just, I think I want to encourage the listeners with what the discipleship that I’ve learned here at to Hope for so long. Because I know, I know, I know, even this morning, ministry leaders can can get so busy that they they start to think, I can skip out on my time with the Lord. And again I just honor Pastor Vance for teaching me this for so many years. It really cannot be said enough that your primary call on your life, if you’re listening to this and you’re in ministry and you got a big role and a big title and a big church, and you’re even a small role, a small title, small church, you have responsibility over people. Jesus was not lying when he said, apart from me, you can do nothing. But if we abide in him, we bear much fruit. Scott Worthington — Dude, it’s crazy as the enemy deceives us into thinking, well, we can skip that part so that I can go make much fruit. You can’t. It’s a dead branch cut off from the vine. You can’t bear any fruit. But connected to the vine, spending that time with Jesus, really cultivating a true, deep relationship with the Lord actually is what produces the fruit. And I don’t know maybe somebody needs to hear that this morning like I need to hear that.Rich Birch — No, that’s fantastic. Scott, thank you so much for being here today, for taking some time to spend with us. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?Scott Worthington — Yeah, hopechurchlv.com, hopechurchlv.com. That’s got all our stuff. And we’re on the socials with all the the same handle, hopechurchlv. And any way we can serve the the greater kingdom, man, we’re down for it.Rich Birch — Great. Thanks so much for being here today. I appreciate that.Scott Worthington — Thank you, guys.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Jeremy Norton, Lead Pastor of Mountainview Church in Whitehorse, Yukon. Jeremy has led the church through a significant revitalization journey since 2017, helping transition it into a growing, multicultural congregation that now includes both English and Tagalog gatherings. Are you looking for a fresh way to engage Scripture in your own life or lead your church through it? In this conversation, Jeremy shares the heart behind his recent book Meeting Jesus, and how exploring the relational encounters of Jesus in the Gospel of John can reshape both personal faith and church leadership. A revitalization story shaped by people. // Originally founded in the 1940s, Mountainview Church underwent significant change beginning in 2017. Over time, the congregation not only stabilized but began to grow, including the addition of a Tagalog-speaking gathering led by a Filipino pastor. This shift reflects the demographic reality of Whitehorse, where a growing Filipino population now makes up a significant portion of the city. The result is a church that is both culturally diverse and unified around shared teaching and mission. Why focus on the relational encounters of Jesus? // Jeremy's book Meeting Jesus began as a sermon series that explored the Gospel of John through the lens of Jesus' one-on-one interactions. Rather than a traditional verse-by-verse approach, Jeremy focused on how Jesus engaged individuals, like Nicodemus, the woman at the well, and Pontius Pilate. This relational framing makes the gospel more accessible and personal, helping people see themselves in the stories. Why this approach resonates today. // Exploring Scripture through relational encounters connects deeply with modern audiences. People are drawn to stories they can see themselves in, whether as skeptics, wounded individuals, or seekers of truth. In particular, Pilate's question, “What is truth?” reflects a growing cultural tension where truth is often seen as subjective. By grounding these questions in Scripture, churches can help people navigate complex cultural conversations with clarity and conviction. A resource for churches and leaders. // Jeremy sees Meeting Jesus as more than a book; it's a ministry tool. Jeremy built this into his book by including discussion questions and action steps at the end of each chapter, making it a practical tool for both individuals and groups. Churches can use it alongside a sermon series through John, in small groups, youth ministries, or leadership development environments. It can also serve as a resource for new believers exploring faith or long-time Christians seeking deeper understanding. Turning sermons into lasting resources. // Jeremy also offers a behind-the-scenes look at why pastors should consider turning sermon series into books. Many pastors spend significant time preparing messages that are later archived and forgotten. By developing those sermons into written resources, leaders can extend their impact far beyond Sunday. Books can become tools for discipleship, outreach, and even invite culture, giving church members something tangible to share with others. A practical framework for pastors. // For pastors considering writing, Jeremy suggests starting with sermon series that span three to six months. That’s long enough to provide depth but not so long that the content becomes overly academic. You can follow along at Mountainview Church at mountainview.church. To learn more about Jeremy's book Meeting Jesus and access additional resources, visit leadbiblically.com or find the book wherever books are sold. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We got multiple conversations happening on multiple levels today, and we’ve got a repeat guest, which you know, when we have a repeat guest, what does that mean? This is a person I want you to listen in on and pay attention to. Today, we’ve got the privilege of having Jeremy Norton with us. He is the lead pastor of Mountain View Church. It was established in the 1940s in the Yukon, the Yukon Territory, and went through revitalization here in 2017. It is now both English and Tagalog. Did I say that correctly? Is that close? Close. Jeremy Norton — Yes, that’s great, which is which is the language of Filipino peoples.Rich Birch — Which is fantastic. He wrote most recently wrote a book called “Meeting Jesus”, which I want you to check out, which walks through the Gospel of John, highlighting Jesus’ relational encounters and how he crossed boundaries and transformed lives. You’re going to love this. Jeremy, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Jeremy Norton — Thanks so much for having me. Excited to be back.Rich Birch — Always good a chance to connect with you. And, you know, people, when they say I’m from the North, I’m like, no, my friend Jeremy, he really is from the North. You know, that’s a long ways away. Kind of talk to us about Mountain View. Tell us a little bit of the story, how you intersect there. If we were to arrive. You’ve been on in past episodes, but kind of update us a little bit.Jeremy Norton — Yeah, yeah. So I’m going on 11 years as lead pastor of Mountainview Church. Started as Whitehorse Baptist Church, revitalized to Mountainview Church, all sorts of different changes there. Yeah, lots of people are familiar with revitalization journeys. Went through that. It’s hard work, but it’s good work. And I’m on the back end of it and we’ve seen crazy growth. We went to two English gatherings during revitalization. And then about a year and a half ago, we added a part time Filipino pastor and he does a Tagalog gathering as well. Jeremy Norton — And so same content, same or same theme and passage as the English gatherings, but obviously he writes his own content. So we still go through the sermon series together. His name’s Byron, Pastor Byron. And so that’s been really, really great. Jeremy Norton — Most people don’t know that in Whitehorse, and I think Yellowknife as well, Canadian immigration about 10 years ago started kind of fast tracking Filipino peoples. And for those of us in Canada, all of a sudden, probably 10 years ago, we started seeing more and more Filipino people in the workforce, amazing people, joyful people, resourceful people. And it got to the point in Whitehorse where we had a lot of Filipino immigrants and And to the point where we’re about 10% of our population in our city is Filipino.Rich Birch — Wow.Jeremy Norton — And so there’s actually like there’s a Filipino Catholic, Nazarene. And for us, we’re Evangelical Baptist. So there’s a number of congregations that are Tagalog speaking. And yeah, so that’s kind of where we’re at now.Rich Birch — That’s very cool. Jeremy Norton — Yeah. Rich Birch — That’s, yeah that’s fun fun to hear. And I, yeah and I’m thinking about, man, moving from the Philippines to Whitehorse, that’s a move. That’s a move right there.Jeremy Norton — Crazy. Yeah. A country that’s constantly what over 30, over 35 degrees Celsius.Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Yeah.Jeremy Norton — And then now they’re in negative 40 Celsius. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — Which, for Americans, negative 40 meets at Celsius and Fahrenheit. Rich Birch — Yes. Cold. Jeremy Norton — So it’s just stuff’s cold and it breaks. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Norton — So yeah, crazy. And it just shows you the the desire of Filipino people to to, I guess, make life better for their family and to take opportunities. They’re willing to sacrifice a lot. It’s pretty incredible.Rich Birch — Love it. Well, we want to talk today about a book that you’ve recently released called “Meeting Jesus: the Transformational Encounters of John’s Gospel”. Why don’t you give us the the big picture first? Why did you write this book? what What’s the kind of story you’re telling here? What are you hoping for? What were you thinking as you were pulling this together?Jeremy Norton — Yeah, well, it it started as a sermon series in 2018 called Meeting Jesus. And I wanted to walk people through John’s gospel, but instead of in instead of doing a just kind of an expository preaching series, I was like, what would it look like to go through the actual relational encounters that Jesus had with different people?Jeremy Norton — You know, I guess starting with kind of Philip and Nathaniel and even working to Nicodemus, woman at the well. Anyway, all the way right through to to the to the famous moment of him and Pilate, where Pilate’s like, what is truth? You know so the whole journey. Jeremy Norton — And then after doing that in 2024, I can only assume the the Holy Spirit led me to like just opening up those notes. And I was like, I need to turn this into a book. This isn’t quite a commentary. And yet it is a commentary, and yet it’s it’s it’s a story because it’s each chapter is the story of Jesus and another person. And in the sermon series, I had expanded on like who this person is in modern culture as well.Jeremy Norton — Like, this could be you, this person. You know, whether it be the the legalist or the skeptic or like, you know, yeah, again, you have you have Nathaniel, who’s the skeptic, Philip, who’s the evangelist. You have Nicodemus, who’s the legalist. You know, anyway, ah the the woman of the well who’s wounded and and really disowned from culture. So there’s all these people. Jeremy Norton — And and then so I I started working to put the sermon series into a book. I use a publisher.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — I have a great publisher, Ambassador International, sent it to them in…And then through 2025, it went back and forth to multiple edits.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — They did a lot of work for me. Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Jeremy Norton — And, you know, and yeah, then it launched in March 10th. And it’s been really fun.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.Jeremy Norton — So far, I’ve got amazing feedback from it. So it’s great.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I’d love to, I think the framing of kind of the relational encounters of Jesus is interesting way to look at the Gospels. And, you know, the the the incredible popularity of “The Chosen”, I think, is built on a similar premise, right? How do we see Jesus, even if you have a kind of passing knowledge of Jesus, see these stories that maybe we’ve heard of before, but from a slightly different lens, just a slightly different point of view, which is like, hey, let’s think through this at ah at a human level, for lack of a better word.Rich Birch — Why do you think that that is, an effective way to re-encounter something like the gospel of John? Why is that in a framework that you think God’s used either in your series or when you talk about it here in the book?Jeremy Norton — Yeah, I think and well, I think John’s gospel in itself is, you know, different than Matthew, Mark and Luke like how he writes it. He wrote it later right it’s the gospel that came much later. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — And so and for whatever reason God led him to to focus so much on the conversation Jesus had with people. You know the other gospels just detail things differently. And so I don’t we’ll you know we’ll meet John one day but I imagine he he’s pretty pastoral. I I, from his writing, I I imagine that he’s kind of the, you know, for a modern term, you know, coffee shop pastor just wanting to know people’s stories… Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — …and saying like, oh, I remember this one time Jesus had this conversation with so and so and this is how it played out. And this, you know, and so that’s when I did the sermon series, which became the book like that, I just envisioned John like that. And I just thought that John’s like a lot of pastors with their congregations on those like coffee shop meetings, or like trying to help them through life and trying to point back to Jesus and the conversation he’s had. So, um yeah, that’s kind of that’s where where it all kind of started… Rich Birch — Started. Yep.Jeremy Norton — …and I just wanted to explain that well. And there is tons of scripture in it, and even going back to pointing back like for context, and it’s not like there’s not theological depth to it, or pointing back to some Old Testament stuff on what what was talked about. Yeah, especially with ah Nathaniel, who Jesus calls the true Israelite. You know, we get this picture that Nathaniel really wanted to follow God’s law. He he really he really was waiting to see the Messiah, but but desperate, you know, to see the Messiah. So anyway, yeah.Rich Birch — That’s cool. When you went through the series, was there one of these vignettes that seemed to resonate or stick out with your church more than others? Or, you know, we like to think, oh, every every message is like people just love them. But were there any of them that just kind of like, oh, that seemed to to resonate? And why do you think that resonated with your people? Because maybe that’ll continue to resonate even through, you know, the book here. Jeremy Norton — Yeah, there’s there’s there’s there’s two that I that I remember. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Norton — I mentioned them slightly already. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Norton — But coming out of the revitalization in 2017 and then moving into 2018 this was like one of the one of the sermon series that kind of got us in the journey. And so, you know, hashing out Nicodemus as a, as a, as a legalist who, who’s, you know, the midnight encounter with Jesus and, and, and processing like how to be born again. And we were getting a lot of visitors. And so and so that was an important thing. Jeremy Norton — And it was an important thing, I think, for a church that had been probably like a lot of churches pre-revitalization, they tend to lean towards legalism a little bit, the rules, you know, thus saith the Lord. And to understand, to just see it through Nicodemus’ eyes that that his whole religious worldview was like breaking down at midnight. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — And and you know unfortunately, we don’t really get the end of the story with Nicodemus. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — It’s like I’m always desperate for it. Like what happened in the end?Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Jeremy Norton — Like, did he just give up his religious position? Did he stay like a Christian spy? Like what, you know, what happened? So that was the first one to, to just really help our church understand that being born again, like that is, that is the, the point.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — And, uh, and all the rules and all the commands like of of God’s law, they’re a beautiful thing, but they were all leading us to the trajectory of Jesus… Rich Birch — It’s good. It’s good. Jeremy Norton — …and fulfilling the law, fulfilling the prophets. And that and that we we we need to be dead to self and and born again.Jeremy Norton — And and then the the second one was, which I already slightly mentioned, was that was Pilate and what is truth. And in 2018 in particular, there was, I’m sure pastors listening will remember that we, we weren’t quite in, we weren’t at COVID yet, but the, it was like, you know, a year and a half before and, and truth was a big thing. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — There was, there was a lot of identity stuff happening in 2018.Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Norton — It was just kind of really kicking off, especially in Canada. It was, it was a big deal. And so capturing truth and and what is truth that that’s actually in 2018 was when we started hearing a common phrase now where like your truth and my truth. That was just kind of starting at that time.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yes.Jeremy Norton — And so hearing Pilate… Rich Birch — Right. …who is, you know, has so much authority and so much clout and and trying to figure out Jesus and just clearly just so frustrated that he’s in the whole mess of this and that really doesn’t want any part of it. And…Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Norton — And for the Greco-Roman world, like they were definitely like in a lot of ways, like modern culture, likeRich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — you take a little part A, a little part B… Rich Birch — And blend it together. Jeremy Norton — …and you just form your own truth. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Norton — God 1, god 2, god 4 – who cares… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yes. Jeremy Norton — …you know. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. yeah Interesting.Jeremy Norton — So so that really resonated too. And that was like the last, that was the the last message in the series. And we actually saw people come to know Christ and baptized at the end of the series and and ending doing it actually right before Easter. And yeah, it it yeah was great.Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, I love that. There’s, you know, it’s, I think it’s great to relook at a book like the book of John from this kind of perspective. Because I think sometimes as pastors, people, as we, you know, deal with the scripture, and it it can become routine. We don’t want it to become routine. That’s not our heart for that to happen. But I think that can happen. That’s like, I’ve said in other contexts, that’s like an occupational hazard we have with the scripture is… Jeremy Norton — Totally. Rich Birch — …you know, we’re we’re constantly just opening this book up to find, you know, I got to find nuggets to give to other people. And, you know, I miss that. Rich Birch — Speak to a pastor who might be listening in today that this book could help them because I was struck by that. This could be the kind of thing that I think even for us as we’re thinking about our own walk with Jesus, I think this kind of book could help us help us think think about this book from that perspective.Jeremy Norton — Yeah, this for a pastor that wanted to go through John, they could just grab this book and do a like, like for their church, either the whole church. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — Hey, we’re going to be walking through John and we’ve got this book Meeting Jesus and and it’s going to be available in our small groups. Because in the back of every chapter, there’s discussion questions, action items like the the publisher really helped me flesh out the end of the chapter to make it very applicable. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Jeremy Norton — So you can walk through John’s gospel and meeting Jesus could be a discussion guide. Even for like youth, for like senior high youth, totally doable in that through all your community groups and to for for a pastor to preach through John, but then get more ah more out of it, I think would be would be quite valuable. Obviously I’m biased… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jeremy Norton — But but if you’re look if you’re looking for a resource to give your people to get the fullness out of your John series this be it for sure. Yeah.Rich Birch — Love it. One of the things I love about this is like, sidebar taking that back to school. I did a class on John. Actually, one of my favorite classes in school was on John and my prof was just amazing. And and I oftentimes when I’m reading John I hear his voice you know my prof’s voice… Jeremy Norton — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and remember he used to make, there’s all those places in John where, maybe it’s not that many, you probably would know because you’re a better preacher than me. There’s those places where John refers to John as the one who Jesus loved.Jeremy Norton — Yeah.Rich Birch — And my prof used to always make fun of that all the time and be like, you know, here, there he is. He’s like writing about himself saying, or maybe it’s the community writing about him saying, well, you know, the John, the one who Jesus loved, you know, which is just a funny story. But it is, it speaks to your point. It’s a personal text. It’s it has a relational edge to it that I think we can miss we can miss or as an opportunity for us to highlight for our people. Hey, let’s let’s think about this from a slightly different perspective. Love that.Jeremy Norton — Yeah, and even even how John talks about the discovery of the empty tomb… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeremy Norton — …and and who’s with who and who’s running back, like how he how he does it, it’s just, I’m for me, I’m always like, that’s you know, great about the New Testament writings is like God in his, wisdom didn’t take the personality out and yet kept the truths.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Jeremy Norton — And so you, you see a little bit like, like was John, if he really was the relational guy and, and just the the shepherd, was he also a little bit insecure?Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Norton — It kind of comes across a little bit. Like, I don’t know for sure. I don’t, I can’t do the full exegesis of it, but I, I often wonder that.Rich Birch — Yeah, it feels very human.Rich Birch — That part of the, that part of the the well, and even that whole story… Jeremy Norton — Yes. Rich Birch — …well, that to me is one of the most compelling reasons for why I believe the text, because it’s like, if you were trying to make up a story…Jeremy Norton — Totally. Yeah.Rich Birch — …about a guy coming back from the dead. there’s a bunch of stuff in there, including the women, including the…you’re telling me that the guys that were the closest were not here. You know, like that just doesn’t make sense. Like you, if we were writing this story, you would be like, Hey, let’s put, let’s put us all in there. Let’s put us that we, we, we stood by and maybe we beat up the centurions. Like, let’s put that in like that. That’ll make us look better.Jeremy Norton — Totally. Yeah. Rich Birch — But that to me is one of the, to me, it’s like one of the most compelling. There’s a bunch of that in the New Testament, but that’s one of them that to me is a key text… Jeremy Norton — Yeah. Rich Birch — …that speaks to why you can believe this text to be true, because you wouldn’t write it that way if, unless it actually happened. Jeremy Norton — Totally. It makes, yeah, it makes me think of Mark Clark’s book, The Problem of Jesus. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Jeremy Norton — He does an excellent job, like, explaining the resurrection and and and from, like, an investigator’s point of view. I’m like, that this is so erratic.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Jeremy Norton — It has to be true, you know?Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Jeremy Norton — So, yeah, it’s good.Rich Birch — When it feels very human, feels very human, right? You’re like, like you say, like that feels like the kind of thing I can relate with for sure. Rich Birch — Think about it at a church level. You kind of mentioned this because similarly, I thought, man, this could be a great study. Jeremy Norton — Yeah. Rich Birch — I was actually struck by, I think an interesting context for it might be, hey, you’ve got a group of leaders. at the church that you’re trying to invest in. And, um you know, my friend Dan Reiland from 12 stone said, you know, the core of his leadership development over the years has been find a group of 10 people say, here’s a book, let’s read it and talk about it. To me, this is one of those ones that could be great because it’ll get, it’ll open up all kinds of other conversation.Jeremy Norton — Totally.Rich Birch — What are some other contexts that you kind of pictured this being used in the church?Jeremy Norton — Yeah, I think, well, personal devos I think would be great. Like if you’re reading through John just on your own, like the the back sections can, yeah, it can be discussion guides, can also be like a personal journal. I if people went ah into a deep dive of of this book, reading along with John’s gospel, obviously there’s lots of scripture just like right in the book. But, and then let’s say they answer the reflection questions, go through the action items. There’s just so much there’s lots of space in that end of each chapter. And I could see someone, turning it into like a journal and…Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeremy Norton — Yeah, I also think, you know, I guess it it could it could also be a great gift. I think if you’re if you’re, you know, you could keep giving people a coffee mug with your church’s logo on. You really could if you wanted to. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — I’m I’m I think I think books are with the pen and the candy bar or whatever, you know, whatever you’re going to do I think a book as a gift is a is a good way to do it. Obviously, it’s my book. I’m biased, and there’s lots of great books out there. Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Norton — But this would be a book, whether whether someone’s first coming to know Christ or exploring Christianity, or whether they’re they’ve been long discipled and mentored for a long time as you’re as a first-time guest in your church to give them a little welcome package. This this would would fit, I think.Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure. That’s good. Let’s pivot to actually that, that, ah you know, wants me to pivot to a different kind of a different conversation, but about the book… Jeremy Norton — Sure. Rich Birch — …which is even that as a pastor, so kind of the meta conversation, it’s a lot of time, effort, and energy, I can say as a a third time author who’s working on the fourth and is taking time.Jeremy Norton — Well done.Rich Birch — It’s like, it’s a lot of time to invest to put this together. As a pastor of a church, talk to me why you would invest the time, effort, and energy in writing a book like this. What how do you see that fitting in to you know the mission of what you’re doing at the church?Jeremy Norton — Yeah, well I want a lead passion out over a decade and you go through sermon series. You know there are those pastors who will do like two years in Matthew… Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — …and they’re doing like one or two verses a time…excuse me. And so you know that i can’t turning that into like that’s going to be a full-on commentary, very theologically deep.Jeremy Norton — But for a lot of us, we’re doing thematic thematic series or like this, where you’re doing an overview of a book, like catching highlights, encouraging a congregation in their personal study to read through the meat of it and the details. But, you know, maybe one chapter at a time, a highlight. So there’s lots of times pastors do that.Jeremy Norton — And so you write these sermon series and then they just get archived. And, you know, I I’ve I have them. Every pastor listening has them where you have, you know, your folders and you open your folders and it’s like you have the year and then you got the months… Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — …or or maybe you just have the sermon series. And then you open that folder and it’s like manuscripts, notes, and you don’t want to delete them. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — Because you’ve put so much heart and soul and prayer and and work into it. And I just, I really feel it’s a ton of work, like so much work, so much work, but you get better at it. And pastors that you you can, you can let those sermon series live on in books. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Jeremy Norton — And you you can do the heart, the hardest work. You know, I’ve done both ways, having a publisher, And self-publishing, you can do the self-publishing, you know, Amazon has those tools. It gets easier over time, you know, having done a ah number of them now and some of them looking ugly and some of them now looking it’m like, okay, I got it I’ve got it locked in now.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — And with you go a traditional publisher, you know, when you’re first getting started, you know, it it it costs money. But there is something amazing when you see your sermon series in print. Rich Birch — Sure.Jeremy Norton — And that you can give it to your, you could give it as a gift to your people, welcome gift, or you could just sell it. And, and you, you’ve got people in your congregation that will support your writing anyway. They love your sermon series.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Jeremy Norton — That’s why they’re there. The main reason they’re coming. There’s, they may come for different reasons to your church, but they’re staying for the teaching.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — Like we just know that. The the stats are there and can enter consistent. So to have to have your teaching in a book form, they will buy it for friends. They will buy it for themselves, they especially if they really love the sermon series. Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Norton — So. But it’s a lot of work. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Norton — I get it. It’s a lot of work.Rich Birch — Yeah, I like it from, and we said this before we started recording, but from a on the like invite culture, church growth side of work that I do, one of the tactics that I recommend that churches seriously look at is writing a book like this. Take a sermon series, do the work to, and you know, it takes time.Rich Birch — It’s not a like, you can’t pull that trigger and a month later you’ve got a book. That’s not how that works. It takes time. But it is a great tool. And we’ve seen it with the churches we work with, multiple churches, where it it is, like you’re saying, it’s a great in the new year gift. It’s a great tool for there. But it’s frankly a great tool for your people on the invite side. People will give the book to other folks. Jeremy Norton — Correct. Rich Birch — It’s a way to interact in town with other, you know, like other leaders, that sort of thing. And, you know, your people, there is still, there’s like a perceived…prestige is too strong of a word. But there’s like there’s a validation in in putting together a book that… Jeremy Norton — There is. You are totally correct. Rich Birch — …you know you’ve you’ve put the work in, and that it probably means more than it should in the culture, but it is a tool. It’s something that you could use. And so I love that you’re doing this. When you think about, if you were sitting across from a a pastor, was thinking about the kind of series that would translate well into a book based on your experience, obviously not all series could could translate well. What would be the kind of thing that you think could translate well for someone?Jeremy Norton — So there’s a, yeah, a few caveats would be like, it has to be a minimum that you’ve done. It’s gotta be in order to get it to book form, I would minimum two months, but that’s going to be a slim book. So I would say like, I guess if you really wanted to but the sweet spot is three to six months series. In a three to six months series, you’re going to have enough content for a book. But not so much content that now you’ve written a textbook.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — That’s why I was saying like, you’re doing the year in Matthew or the two years in Matthew, which, you know, lots of, that seems to be a thing, especially with Matthew. I hear that more than anyone else is, is doing the deep dive of Matthew, probably because a lot of the touch points to the Old Testament in in Matthew for sure. But it’s too it’s too big. You’re you’re it’ll be too academic. It won’t be accessible. It’ll just be a monster. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — So three to six months of sermon series. And and yeah, just there’s lots of there’s AI tools out there that you can use to to be cautious with the AI tools, because if you lose your voice, you’re done like it does people people will see it.Rich Birch — Right, right. It doesn’t sound like you.Jeremy Norton — If your book is full of m dashes, they will know that ChatGPT wrote it, you know.Rich Birch — Yes, yes. That’s funny. Yeah.Jeremy Norton — So yeah, it it it. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s something that I think later on I want to help pastors with. I think I really would.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah, I do I think there’s a I think there’s an opportunity there for a lot of pastors to think about that and say, hey, what is there a way for us? I like the idea of like, I think that’s a good tangible three to six months. Even if you’re, I’m thinking about even the lead pastor at at our church, we typically do four or five week series.Rich Birch — He doesn’t, we don’t typically do super long series like that.Jeremy Norton — Oh right. Yes.Rich Birch — We’re changing the channel, but he’s done a number of, he’s come back to similar topics over time. So he’s, we just finished up a series on the Holy Spirit. It’s actually the third time in, maybe three years, we’ve done a series on the Holy Spirit. You could see where maybe it’s piecing together a couple different series and say, hey, there might be a, or you could think about that on the front end, like, hey, maybe over the next two years, I’m going to do three or four series together, you know, or over this next couple of years that I eventually am going to pull together into one, you know, overarching kind of idea that we can put together in a book.Jeremy Norton — And even in that, like hearing, okay, so three years doing the Holy Spirit… Rich Birch — Yep. …you could definitely do, just take those three, if they’re like four to six weeks or whatever, a three-part book and actually separate into parts.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Norton — and And again, using AI tools, you can upload those documents and say, ah you know, anything that’s duplicate, you know, please categorize for me. Rich Birch — Right, right. Jeremy Norton — And, you know, put it into co-work or something like that. And, and then go into the docs, pull, pull that out. And yeah, it would, it it could work. It could work great.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s similar. Like when I wrote the, the, and I don’t know if I’ve ever talked about this publicly, but the books I’ve written, I’ve similarly, like I, um, the process I’ve gone through is I write an outline and then I actually, I actually speak the chapters like a presentation. So, cause that’s my most natural form, like is I’m doing, or I do it all the time. I’m constantly like, I’m doing it later today, meeting with the church and we’re going to talk for a bunch of hours about stuff. And so I’m like very used to that. I’ll use then the transcript from that. I’ll take that. And then I write from that transcript. I’m basically editing that transcript to turn it into something that sounds like it’s written. And then I’ve done iterative back and forth processes with an actual editor.Rich Birch — So, you know, it’s like then it’s like it goes to her and then comes back to me, goes back to her… Jeremy Norton — Yeah. Rich Birch — …back and forth over time to kind of get that whittled down into, OK, here’s a text. And, you know, the thing I’ve said to other leaders, even that process gets you started, people get stuck looking at a blank page, right They get stuck at the beginning. So even finding a process to get the ball rolling is is and getting the information down on the page. I think it was Ernest Hemingway who said, which stay with me, friends, don’t hang up on the podcast. I think he said, write drunk, edit sober. And you what you should not do as a pastor, but what he’s saying there is like, just get it onto the page, like just get it out.Jeremy Norton — Yeah.Rich Birch — Like, you know, and if you take forever on that first stage, you’ll never get to a book. Right. And you’ve already done that as a, as a pastor, you’ve spoken these, but how do we get the ball rolling? Thoughts on any of that, except for the get drunk thing. Don’t comment on that, but any comments on the rest of that?Jeremy Norton — Yeah, don’t write drunk. But so I guess I so there’s some guys out there that like, you know, they’ll have just like a few little notes and they they’re not manuscript preachers. Some guys are manuscript preachers. Nothing against that. You know I’m kind of a both and guy. Rich Birch — Yep. I manuscript for like our manuscript and teleprompt for our YouTube channel. And then but then I take that like so that manuscript I just have highlights. And then when I live preach, I just have highlights. And I walk around and talk. So there’s lots of passages in different versions but if you are the guy that’s just got an an outline um you’re probably going to have an audio an audio of your sermon and you can put it into a like Otter AI, or don’t know there’s probably loads of different tools now, and run that transcript, and then just export every sermon as a as, you know, the first sermon in your series you know introduction. Right. Rich Birch — Yep. Second one in your series… Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Norton — …you know, chapter one. And once you have those documents, now you will you will notice, well, there’s lots of things you’re going to notice when you get a transcript. You’re going to notice how much you say and like and all these different things. Rich Birch — True. Jeremy Norton — You’re going to be just like, oh my goodness, is that how I sound like, which can be a good thing when you read that when you’re when you move from the transcript of your sermon into a book, you’re like, oh my goodness, this is would be the most awful thing to read.Rich Birch — True.Jeremy Norton — But there’s also tools now that remove all all that for you.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, that’s fun.Jeremy Norton — Then you go through and you edit it.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — And yeah, yeah. And it’s a beautiful thing when it’s done.Rich Birch — Good stuff. Yeah, that’s great. Well, this been a good good conversation. Where can people i want to get people to pick up copies of this.Jeremy Norton — Sure.Rich Birch — I’m assuming they can buy it at Amazon. In fact, I know you can buy it at Amazon because that’s where books come from. But are there other places we want to send people to pick up? I think this would be, even if you’re listening in today and you’re thinking, hmm, I wonder what it looks like to have sermons transformed into a book like hey you should pick up a copy even as just a reference to get a sense of hmm I could see what that could look like even if you’re not going read it that would interesting tool… Jeremy Norton — Totally. It’s it’s a great… Rich Birch — …there. so so Amazon, where else do we want to send them? Jeremy Norton — Anywhere anywhere books are sold. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — I don’t I don’t know if anyone buys books at anywhere else. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeremy Norton — Like does people do people still buy books at Indigo or Chapters or ChristianBook.com?Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Yes.Jeremy Norton — I don’t know who does, but if you do… Rich Birch — It’s there. Jeremy Norton — …it’s it’s there. One of the benefits of going with a publisher is they just have access to just…Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — …every book distributed. They just can get your book everywhere. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Norton — When you self-publish, you know, with Amazon, it’s locked in Amazon, but then again, people go to Amazon. And yeah, it’s a, it would be a great thing for pastors to, to look through and say, Hey, you know, I think I could do this.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Norton — I see how this works now. So that would be good. And obviously there’s print copy or a digital copy.Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Norton — You know, if you want more information on the book and stuff like that, you can go to my website, leadbiblically.com. There’s lots of other stuff there. My other books that I’ve written, self-published and published by Ambassador International, they’re all there too. You can have a look. Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, Jeremy, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you being on the show today and and let us peek under the hood. There’s obviously a lot more we could talk about there, but I want to encourage people to go pick those up and and check out your website, Lead Biblically. And thanks for being here today.Jeremy Norton — Thanks so much. Love it.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Greg Curtis and Tommy Carreras from Climbing the Assimilayas, an organization dedicated to helping churches build systems that move people from first-time guests to engaged disciples. With years of experience working inside and alongside growing churches, Greg and Tommy bring practical insight into one of the most overlooked—and most critical—areas of church health: assimilation. Are people showing up at your church but not sticking? Do you feel like guests are slipping through the cracks despite your best efforts? In this conversation, Greg and Tommy unpack what's changing about how people engage with church today and how leaders can respond. A seismic shift in why people are coming. // One of the biggest changes in churches is a shift in motivation: people are no longer primarily coming to church for community or life improvement—they're coming to find God. Where previous generations often needed to be convinced of the benefits of church, many new guests today are already spiritually curious or even actively seeking Jesus before they arrive. Greg shares stories of individuals with no church background who are reading Scripture, watching content like The Chosen, and showing up ready to take decisive steps like baptism. This means churches must recalibrate their approach—not just creating welcoming environments, but facilitating genuine encounters with God. You're missing more people than you think. // Tommy identifies a foundational issue: most churches are only tracking a fraction of the people actually engaging. Many leaders celebrate the number of new guests they can count, but in reality, they're missing a significant percentage—especially families checking in children or people who never stop at a guest table. Churches often aren't lacking opportunity—they're overlooking it. Recognizing and responding to all entry points into the church is critical if leaders want to move more people toward connection and growth. Stop telling your story—start naming theirs. // A common mistake churches make is focusing on communicating their own story—how the church started, what it believes, and why it exists—rather than connecting with the story of the guest. Guests aren't primarily interested in your church's narrative; they're asking what God might be doing in their life and how your church fits into that. Instead of offering multiple vague next steps, churches should provide clear, guided invitations that help people take one meaningful step forward. When churches shift from “Here's who we are” to “Here's how we can help you,” engagement increases dramatically. The first questions every guest is asking. // Every new person is subconsciously asking, “Is there anyone here like me?” That question shapes their experience from the parking lot to the worship service. But today, a second question is emerging: “Is there someone worth imitating?” Guests are looking for more than information—they're looking for transformation. This has led many churches to create space for prayer, reflection, and personal ministry during or after services. These moments often become powerful connection points where guests experience both God and meaningful relationships with others. People are looking for people—not programs. // Both Greg and Tommy emphasize that guests aren't primarily searching for better programming—they're searching for meaningful relationships. That means churches must prioritize relational connection over information delivery. Simple actions—like learning someone's name, asking thoughtful questions, and creating environments where people feel seen—can have a greater impact than any polished program. Designing clear pathways for connection. // Greg outlines three key journeys every church should consider: from the “screen to the seat” (first-time attendance), from the “seat to the circle” (relational connection through groups, teams, etc.), and from the “circle to the street” (living out faith in everyday life). Each stage requires intentional environments and clear next steps. Without these pathways, guests may attend once or twice but never fully engage. Every response is a sacred opportunity. // Tommy closes with a powerful reminder: every form submission, every piece of contact information, every small step a guest takes is a miracle. People don't casually give their information—they do so because something significant is happening in their life. When churches fail to follow up or steward those moments well, they're not just missing a system—they're missing a person God is drawing. Leaders must treat every interaction as sacred and respond with urgency, care, and intentionality. To learn more about Climbing the Assimilayas, access their free assimilation audit, or explore their Sherpa Tribe coaching community, visit assimilayas.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don't need more pressure—you need support. That's why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn't stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It's like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We have got repeat guests on the call, which you know what that means. These are people I love dearly and who I know have so much that they can help you with. You’re going want to stay plugged in. In fact, this is one of those areas that I think many of our churches are stumbling on and are not doing a good job. We’re not doing what we should be doing. And that doesn’t just come from like, it’s a hunch. I’ve literally been in dozens of conversations where what these guys have shared literally illuminates our thinking and helps us take steps towards being a more effective church. So you’re going to want to stay tuned stay tuned for the entire conversation. Rich Birch — Super excited to have Greg Curtis and Tommy Carreras with us. They’re with an organization called Climbing the Assimilayas. Greg is the director of First Steps and Content Development Eastside Christian Church, a fantastic church. Been on the podcast a number of of times. They’re a multi-site church with six locations in all the places that make sense, California, Nevada, and Minnesota. Of course, those fit together.Rich Birch — And then Tommy is is the head sherpa at Climbing the Assimilayas. Super excited to have both of you guys on. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Greg Curtis — Yeah. It’s awesome to be with you, man. Always.Rich Birch — Always fun to connect. Why don’t actually, before we jump in, Tommy, why don’t you tell us about Climbing the Assimilayas? How do you guys help churches? What do you do to come alongside us and help us get better at what what we do?Tommy Carreras — Yeah, I’d love to. Climbing the Assimilayas was started by Greg back when I was brand new in ministry. I was a groups pastor who had just taken over sort of the rest of the pipeline of getting people into groups because I realized I couldn’t get anybody into groups because I wasn’t in charge of anything that was happening before that.Tommy Carreras — So I met Greg in like 2013, 2014. He had just taken over the role of assimilation at Eastside. He kind of designed the role himself when his lead pastor—I’m telling your story now, Greg. Usually you get to tell it.—But his lead pastor, Gene Appel, said, hey, what what do you want to do in this next season? And Greg kind of designed the role based on what he saw was super necessary in the church and also what he was really well designed for.Tommy Carreras — And he was right. Because it was exactly what I needed at the time. It was just trying to figure out what a replicable and scalable system looked like for making things more personal and more effective at getting people to take real next steps. And it sounded really simple, but it was so unbelievably challenging because I just kept getting it wrong myself. And I had no idea where to actually go for advice on any of this. And he started figuring it out, started universalizing some of the principles that were working for him at Eastside and testing those with other churches.Tommy Carreras — I was at his first ever base camp training at Eastside. And so a long friendship began there. And then I just believed everything he said at that point and customized it, contextualized it for ministry and in also Southern California, but a different part. And, you know, it’s California is like five states total. Rich Birch — Right. Sure.Tommy Carreras — So it was much different than Eastside, but also all the principles held up. And so that’s what he’s been doing ever since. I came alongside him a few years ago to sort of throw gas on the fire. I had transitioned out of my role in ministry and started doing a few things with multiple churches. And this was one of them. And it has been a blast to help build these systems in churches that are super hungry for helping people connect, but can’t quite build the systems or just don’t have the models out there that are able to adapt and flex with the changing culture and the changing needs. Because those needs of guests have changed a lot over 12, 13 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. And friends that are listening in, both Greg and Tommy are the kind of leaders that I just say, you should just do what they say. Like, just listen to what they’re doing and do it. And you’d be amazed at the results that we’ve seen at churches all across the country. And so you’re in for a treat of a conversation today. Rich Birch — Greg, since we last talked, so I think that was maybe a year ago, maybe 18 months ago, what have you continued to notice that’s maybe different around how people are engaging, connecting? We’re talking about getting first time guests, the kind of people that are arriving, trying to help those people get assimilated, get connected. What what have you noticed maybe something that’s that’s maybe different in the way people are engaging right now that’s different than maybe even a year or two ago?Greg Curtis — Yeah, over a crescendo over the last two years has been remarkable in its shift towards—this is going to sound crazy because we’re talking to churches—they’re wanting God now. And what I what I mean by that is prior, we were having to sell the benefits of following Jesus, most growing churches, which there are, and I think it was a compelling thing to share with the culture.Greg Curtis — And so people were coming to church to find community, to find help with parenting, to find support in marriage or to, you know, a variety of different things. And so the draw and and what was causing people to engage with church was really what can, what help in my life? How can I increase the quality of my life? Maybe even get some pretty powerful pain points addressed.Greg Curtis — This has shifted. I’ll put it in the terms of our um our young adult pastor. His name is Charles. He came to me. He said, Greg, prior to a few two, three years ago, maybe not even that long. He said, young adults were coming, 80% of them to find friends and community, and about 20% to find God. He goes, it’s flipped. It’s flipped. Now it’s 80% God and 20% community.Greg Curtis —  And that has expressed itself in some remarkable ways. I’ll just throw two out. At the end of last year, i was covering somebody, ah a pastor who was gonna baptize somebody after the service. He had to be gone, so I said, yeah, I’ll cover it. So in our context, I’ll meet that person ahead of time and kind of show him where to sit in the service, when to come out, where the baptistry is, et cetera.Greg Curtis — And I met her, she was 28 years old, named Connie. And I said, as we’re walking through the baptistry, so, you know, I asked these typical questions, how how long have you been coming to Eastside, which is my church? And ah she says, oh, I’ve I’ve never been to Eastside.Greg Curtis — And was like, oh, so you’re from our online campus? And she goes, no, I’ve never really heard of Eastside. And I said, well, what’s led you to be baptized today?Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — And this was her story. She goes, I grew up in a very non-religious home and I’ve I’ve never been to church. And I have, I vowed I’d never even date a religious person, but I had some friends three months ago that invited me to watch The Chosen with them.Greg Curtis — I didn’t want to. I got I was mad at myself for getting engaged after the first episode. Kept watching. Decided to buy myself a Bible two months ago. I started reading the Old Testament and New Testament concurrently and decided, I love Jesus and I want to follow him. And I could tell what I needed to do was get baptized. But get this. I’m the game day operations coordinator for the NFL. So I work on Sundays. And I just Googled who would baptize me on a Saturday. And your form came up and I filled it out. So here I am.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing.Greg Curtis — Yeah. And and I’ll tell you what. She didn’t know, Rich, that this baptism was going to be in front of other people until we were in the water and the whole church was looking at her.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredible.Greg Curtis — Okay. The questions she had, we’ve we’ve remained in touch. The questions she asks are so precious. I mean…Rich Birch — So good.Greg Curtis — …but I’m telling you, I met with somebody, I’ve had a few of those that are similar. That one’s pretty dramatic, but are very similar. No background at all. They’re coming because they’re having a God moment before they get to us.Rich Birch — Yeah. Greg Curtis — And that’s a big shift because God is doing something literally worldwide and in our culture right now that they’re coming to us to find God and and they’re already they’re already encountering him in some way and they need help with that and want it. And that’s a huge shift.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would agree. I’ve seen that in our context, in our church, so my specific home church that I’m a part of, Connexus. I’ve seen that at our church. We’ve seen it in the churches we work with. There is a um a measurable change in the way, kind of the state that people are at when they arrive. You know, that the way I’ve said, echoed similar to what you’re saying there, Greg, is like, There used to be, you know, you and I are of a certain age. I can remember a time when, you know, people would kind of stumble into church and they, you know, they were there for all different kinds of reasons. And, you know, we had to hold their hand for a long time. Rich Birch — But it seems like now people are arriving and they have ah It’s like a God question on their heart that they’re looking for an answer for. It’s they’re, they’re arriving already asking something significant. And, you know, we’ve got to meet them there. We can’t, we can’t just leave that.Greg Curtis — So get get this. I’ve often, I think I’ve probably said this on your podcast before, but for for our church, Christmas is our Super Bowl. It’s our number one outreach event for the year. Traditionally, we’ve gotten 18% of our guest leads from Christmas for for the year.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing.Greg Curtis — Okay. But yeah, but we tried something in light of this. Because we’re we’re we’re looking at this and trying to meet God in in this. And we did something we have never done at Christmas services. And that’s, we it’s so counterintuitive. We invited people, we just shared the gospel. If you want to be baptized right now, We’ll do it.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Greg Curtis — And we have never done that because, and and you’ve heard me say i Christmas guests are different than other guests of the year. They’re not there to find God. They’re there because Aunt Sally invited them to a Christmas service before the dinner and gift exchange. So they’re on their way someplace. They’re not going to do anything. And we just thought, let’s just try it. Rich Birch — RightGreg Curtis — And it probably, we we were we were prepared for, we thought maybe, you know, we’re a church of, I don’t know, 12-, 15,000 today. We thought maybe we’d get 120 people to respond, but we prepared for 200 just in case. We had 399 people… Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. That’s incredible. On Christmas Eve. Greg Curtis — …get baptized by coming to a Christmas service, not knowing that they were going to do that.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible.Greg Curtis — So that just that that just illustrates there’s a seismic spiritual shift going on. And I think meeting guests there is going to be very smart for us in this hour.Rich Birch — Yeah, and I want to, that’s a great place to start. I think sets up, tees up the conversation we will be having today, which is, friends, I think a lot of our churches could be missing some of these folks as they’re as they’re connecting. And I want to really mine from you guys. You guys are the experts on this. You interact with a lot of churches. I want to mine for our our listeners some help for them. So Tommy, from your vantage point, you work with churches across the country where we’re asking questions like this.Rich Birch — How do we get these people plugged in? How can we help these first time guests take steps towards ultimately groups, teams, get plugged into whatever it is that we’re trying to get them plugged in. Where do you see that leaders keep getting stuck when it comes to helping people take their next steps beyond this kind of first weekend? Where do we keep stumbling? What do you see consistently bubbling up in the churches that you’re working with?Tommy Carreras — Yeah. Yeah, there’s a few really specific things. And the first one is, first of all, we always have to move as far left or as far up, however you’d like to think, left to right, top to bottom. We have to move all the way to the left or all the way to the top. And the problem is there aren’t enough people in your funnel in the first place.Tommy Carreras — We’ve talked about this before, but a really, really popular church that I’ve been talking to a lot recently, and working with—by “popular”, I mean it’s growing, it’s a few thousand, so it’s there’s something there, obviously, and really popular online pastor. Not not super duper 2 million followers, but like quarter of a million. That’s a lot. Right. And just a wonderful guy. Right. Tommy Carreras — They announced really proudly recently that they had 1300 new people in the last year and their church of 25 to 2800. And I, looked him and said, guys, guys, that’s not even half of how many new people walked in the door. And they just looked so con confused.Tommy Carreras — They’re like, that’s a great number. I’m like, that’s a that’s a great number. It’s a really bad percentage, though. And it’s just wrong. Doesn’t matter if it’s good, bad, ugly.Rich Birch — Right.Tommy Carreras — It’s just wrong. The idea is most often we’re trying to help people take next steps, but we’re just looking at half or less than half of the actual people that are there. And so if we can’t get the top of the funnel right and recognize who’s there, and some of that is just missing the data that we do have. You can give this one away… If you’re not treating your new families like new guests, you’re ignoring them. You’re not missing them. You’re ignoring them because they’re giving you all the info. They’re giving you all the info besides their social security number, right? We need all their info for having their children. And we’re just missing that opportunity usually because we don’t treat them like, well, they didn’t go to the new guest table. But well, who cares? Bring the new guest table to them, right? Just bring it over there and treat them as such. And so that’s a huge one. That’s 30 to 40% of your new guest leads are actually coming in through kids. And so we have to stop ignoring those people.Tommy Carreras — But also it’s all about that invitation. If we can’t get that invitation right originally, then we’re always going to be looking at less than the actual amount. And then fewer people are going to take next steps because fewer people are being invited to take next steps. And so the top of the funnel is the first problem. We’re just not dealing with all the information. Tommy Carreras — The bigger sort of meta problem that I think has has been really interesting to watch is that most churches end up trying to tell their story instead of name their guest’s story.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.Tommy Carreras — And so if you want to go like the StoryBrand route, and if you’re a Donald Miller fan, which I think, Rich, you are a Donald Miller fan, like it, how could you not be, right?Rich Birch — Sure, sure.Tommy Carreras — Like, “Blue Like Jazz” and “StoryBrand”, where does this guy stop? But the idea is we try and play the hero so that they’ll choose us. We’re trying to make sure all our theological ducks are in a row. We need to tell them the story about the incredible call that that God had on this this church planter’s life 23 years ago and that incredible first moment. And and they’re just sitting there going, Okay, that’s really cool…Rich Birch — That’s interesting to you.Tommy Carreras — …but it has nothing to do with them. Yeah, that’s super interesting. And that sounds like a great documentary that I would watch the trailer for. But that’s it. And what we’re not trying to do, though, is name their story, how they might be feeling right now, and how we might play a part in their story.Tommy Carreras — So instead of trying to say, here’s the story of our church, do you want to get on board? Those assimilation environments, whether it’s your “one program”, which is our language for, you know, the the program that you invite somebody to to help them take a next step into belonging and purpose. Instead of trying to name our story as an organization and say, here’s where you can fit into it. We’re trying to say, here’s the story we believe that God is writing in your life. And we might be able to play a part of it. It’s way bigger than us as a church, but we would love to play a part in it. And here’s the specific next thing that we would like to try and do for you because God’s writing your story and it’s a really good one. And we think we can plug in right here, right now.Tommy Carreras — And that’s the other thing. It’s a lot of times we’re just trying to go and here’s all the ways you could connect. And Greg’s been saying this since 2013 when I met him. But, you know, if you give if you give somebody A, B, C and D, they’ll choose E, none of the above. We’re just we’re giving them options and really they want guidance. And so if we can say, hey, here’s the thing that we have found is the best step for most people like you right now. Then they can just say yes or no.Tommy Carreras — And yes or no is great because if they say no, we just downsell and say, well, what do you want? What are you looking for? What what can we help you accomplish in your story and in your life right now? Not what environment do you want to be in? Because they don’t know. They don’t know what the deliverable of a group is. They don’t know why they would do it. We just have to say, what what do you want then?Tommy Carreras — And they say, oh I’m kind of looking for this, this, this. And you go, oh well, this is an environment that might be built just for you. And so we’re just trying to come alongside their story. But most often we’re trying to convince them that our story is really compelling. And that’s just falling way too flat.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. So much there. Unpack. Friends, rewind. Listen to that. There’s good stuff packed in there. Greg, sticking with this idea of options versus guidance, you know, when we’re thinking about a new person that walks into our church this weekend, this season, what do you think they’re actually trying to figure out in those first few weeks? What are the kind of questions that are on their minds that we’ve got to try to guide them towards? What are you seeing in the churches you’re working with? How should we be trying to guide those people?Greg Curtis — Multiple thoughts come to mind with that one. I’ve always said, and I do think that it’s still true, that the number one question when any of us are in a new environment is, and we’re not conscious of it really, but we look around and is there anyone here like me? And that’s that’s the inner question everybody is asking whenever they go to someplace that’s foreign or new to them. And that, you know, in a church context, that starts in the parking lot.Greg Curtis — And that sounds unusual. But if you’ve if you’ve driven in in on your motorcycle and every other car is a Mercedes and a Beamer, when you pull up, you know, you start to feel other than. And it’s people just look around, is is there somebody here like me? Greg Curtis — And I do think, like I had mentioned before, they are trying to figure out if this is a place where I can encounter God. So I do think we need to calibrate our services in such a way that they do encounter God. And I think that there’s a shift and I can’t wait to see how it gets ferreted out. But the shift in worship that needs to be happening is not just singing great praise songs and, having compelling announcements and and great teaching that is given to you, but having moments where they they actually feel like they’re encountering God, you know what I mean, in some way. And not that he’s not encountered, you know, through his word and and and and in worship. But um you know, ah creating a little bit of space ah for that, I think, going to actually speak to what they’re trying to figure out, which is, okay can I figure out God here? I have so many questions.Greg Curtis — And when they encounter God, that covers a multitude of sins, so to speak. Like, they may have three burning questions, but when if they actually encounter God, the questions almost go into the backseat because, oh my gosh, I just I sense God here. And when I say this, I’m not being theoretical. I just met with a gal, another 28-year-old, yesterday. And again, no church back when whatsoever.Greg Curtis — Her father was Jewish. She passed away a year ago. And she just feels orphaned and started looking for God and started watching us online for two weeks and then came and got baptized her first week she came because we happen to be doing one of those baptism things that we do maybe five times a year.Greg Curtis — And so we sat down, she had her little Bible that we print. It’s one of these few dads that we make. We call it a Bible, but we just print out text for the Bible because we’re doing an Old Testament survey kind of thing called the Old Testament Junk. But she’s she’s like, I think I should get it. Like she just figured out that’s not actually a Bible. And she what what Bible should I get was her first question.Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Right.Greg Curtis — Her other second question. because I said, you got a real pastor of front of you. Where do where do you which what kind of Bible should I get? The second one was, how do you pray?Rich Birch — Love it.Greg Curtis — This is the kind of stuff that as we were growing up, you said we were men of a certain age, that we used to anticipate and dream that people would ask us these incredible discipleship questions, like the disciples asked Jesus, Lord, how do we pray? And he gives them Lord’s Prayer. And we were prepared for those questions, but we were unprepared for a culture that was pretty disinterested. And so we’ve gone to the other paths I mentioned before. But now they’re asking the questions that we we are very prepared to answer, but I think we’re just got a little unused to it. And we need to put those things right in our pocket again because they’re asking. Greg Curtis — And so those are the kinds of of things that that they’re looking for in their first few weeks. And I think they’ll gauge and they are gauging our church by different things than they were a couple of years ago. You know, yeah, sure we have our kids program needs to be good and safe. You know, and and and we can’t do a sloppy job, you know, as we worship God corporately. But they’re gauging it by is God here? Am I meeting him? How can I connect with him? And that is just a very beautiful thing to see happen. That’s a great shift.Rich Birch — You know, I kind of sticking with that. One of the things I’ve been doting as I’ve been interacting with churches across the country is something that a friend of mine, Jeff Brody, lead pastor at Connexus has said. He talked, he’s talked about how we’re trying to offer what we’ve been calling accessible encounter, that it’s like we are trying to, so he wouldn’t say this next part, I’m saying this, so I don’t want to put words in his mouth.Rich Birch — But, um you know, i come from I come from the attractional church movement. That would be my background. Happy to say that that is my background. I know you’re not supposed to admit that, but that’s where that’s my background. It’s like you’re not supposed to say or that’s who it is.Rich Birch — And you know, what we were trying to do there was trying to connect with people who don’t normally attend church. And that’s still our heart. That’s still what we’re trying to do. But what we’ve realized is people are looking for an encounter with God that is that does go beyond. It transcends like, here’s three great ideas for this week at work or whatever. It’s it’s like, hey, I’m coming with real questions.Rich Birch — And so people are looking for something in the service that does have a transformational experience or an encounter to it. Sticking with you for a second, Greg, do you see that trend? So we’re doing more, I’m seeing more churches doing more kind of prayer stuff at the altar, end of the service experience, light these candles if you’re praying for that, fill out this card and post it on the cross. More of those kinds of experiences than I’ve seen before. What do you think about that, Greg?Greg Curtis — No, I feel that too. But that do you know what that does, is it shifts me into one thing I didn’t say is, I also think they’re looking for a person, a resource that they can talk to also. Tommy Carreras — Yeah.Greg Curtis — And I think that when we have those after church like prayer moments, like what what how that’ll look at our church is, and we’ve we’ve decided for this very reason to increase the frequency of them because we didn’t do them often. Now we’re doing them a little bit more regularly, more cyclically. But we we’ll have a prayer team, and I love being on the prayer team that’s at front afterwards because of the content that we were talking about.Greg Curtis — And lines will form of people, and we just pray for them and and talk to them and look in their eyes and sometimes connect them to resources if you know, that’s appropriate. But we just watch the people just line up for that, you know. And I just think people are looking for also a person or a guide, you know, that they could ask some questions of. Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — And so I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine who’s, I think he’s 31. And um his name is Kellen. Love this guy. He’s a leader on staff at a church in Georgia. And his thing, and I’m not saying this is the answer, but because I don’t think anybody knows the answer right now, because all of this, there’s not, and it’s really multiple answers, right? It’s just a bunch of things. But I’ll throw this in as an ingredient in the thought soup, you know, that’s percolating right now on all this. He was saying, especially with all the younger people returning to church, he that he sees a shift in the attractional church model maybe that may be happening over the next five years, where instead of the worship service being the attractional event, and then we get them assimilation-wise into small groups and ministry teams, that it it may be the reverse of that.Greg Curtis — Where because they’re looking for God in a person, they end up in somebody’s home at, at a, something that may look like a small group, as we think of them, and conversations over coffee. And they get so enraptured in it that it starts there. And then it ends kind of like my friend, Connie, who, who came the NFL gal, it ends at your church. It doesn’t start there. That’s the shift. It starts to end there. And that may mean in the future, our attractional church model and worship may shift to something that’s unapologetically for those who are following and seeking Jesus, not trying to get them to. And that’s a big shift. So so the the the river flow may be shifting. And I just think that’s an interesting thought. It’s been in my head for a while.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Tommy Carreras — I think it’s so funny that you mentioned that people are looking for a person, because I was hoping to jump in and say, I think that all of this is like they’re looking for people, not experiences. Rich Birch — Right.Tommy Carreras — And so thank you for for going there. The question that came to mind, because I’ve always loved your question to to remind us how simple and basic the initial need of a guest is. Anybody in any new scenario, is anybody here like me? I think the question that they’re asking next, is anyone here worth imitating? Because also imitation, imitation is the way we learn. It’s the way we grow. It’s why Jesus is a, is a person we follow, not a doctrinal set of beliefs that we adhere to. Tommy Carreras — That’s not the point. The point is the person we follow and the people we’re becoming and everybody wants to become someone better. And that’s not actually a legalistic gross, like, Oh, you’re just prideful. No, no, no. We’re designed to be phenomenally wonderful people that look like Jesus. That’s what our, our actual heart’s desire is. Tommy Carreras — And so if God’s leaning into that desire in people, then their first question is going to naturally be, is anybody here worth imitating? And we can’t tell people that we’re worth imitating. We can only show them that we’re worth imitating. And how do we show them? We walk up to people we don’t know and say, Hey, I don’t think I know you yet. And you deserve to be known. I’m Tommy. What’s your name? And just take it from there. Tommy Carreras — That’s somebody that’s worth imitating. That is somebody that’s confident and inviting and welcoming and kind and compassionate and interested and curious. That’s who I want to be. And so I’m going to naturally say, oh, if that’s the first person I met here, what are all these other people like? This could be wonderful.Rich Birch — Right. Greg Curtis — Yeah.Tommy Carreras — And so I think those two questions really build the the exact desire set, or at least the first initial desires of somebody who’s who’s coming to church, especially somebody who’s explicitly coming to get to know God and to be the best version of themselves. And they’re they’re actually saying, and I think God defines what that best version looks like. That’s like the best news ever for churches. But we tend to miss it because we design for information transfer and not relationship building. And that’s just not what they’re looking for.Greg Curtis — Yes.Rich Birch — So sticking with that, Tommy, I’d love to, I’d love you to unpack that a little bit. Think of maybe I’m a church of a thousand. So it’s, you know, this thing’s got some energy behind it. And I want to design this, these kind of initial first steps. I want to design our weekend experience and then whatever I’m asking for people to make, to try to get them towards some relationship and get them towards some people. What are some of those initial things that we should be thinking about to try to help them take those first couple steps? What are some of the, these initial steps. Again, picture a church of maybe a thousand. What’s that look like? So it’s gotta be done at scale.Rich Birch — I love the idea of like, you know, I could note people in the room who I don’t know, but like, we all know you get up over a couple hundred and it’s like, I don’t know. By the time you get to a thousand, you look around your lobby and you’re like, I don’t know any of these people. Like I don’t know who any of these people are.Tommy Carreras — I don't know any of these people. Yeah.Rich Birch — So how do we, how do we build a system for lack of a better word that helps us move people towards that?Tommy Carreras — Yeah, I think that first we have to get clear on our goals as a team and we have to get clear on every environment’s goal and make sure there is an environment for every step of the journey. Nobody’s just going to take a big swing. Right. And also we, I would love to live in a place and and be in a church where this is just like, I don’t have to design any systems because all the people just naturally do it. Tommy Carreras — And I would say that often, like I want to, I want to, I want our church to be a church where we don’t even need a group connection event because everybody gets invited to a group personally. And that wasn’t because I was actually hoping that would be a realistic thing. I was trying to set such a clear picture of my actual goal that we could just move 5% in that direction. We could get 20% of our people invited instead of going through a connection event. That would be awesome. Even 5% is better than zero. Tommy Carreras — And so I tried to set ah a visionary goal just for the sake of the culture building. But we have to build the systems and and be really obvious about it because people are also walking in with baggage and they’re walking in with a clear picture and they’re they’re asking to be proved wrong in most cases. Well, i don’t know about in most cases, but in plenty cases, they’re they’re hoping they’re proved wrong. Tommy Carreras — Well, church people just like each other. Well, church people are going to judge the places that don’t have it together yet. Lightning is going to strike when I walk in the door. I’m not actually going to be useful here. I’m going to be a burden. All of those things, that’s the baggage they’re walking in with, not just because of church hurt, because of life hurt. And that is exactly why we’re here, to meet that and say, that’s actually a lie. That’s actually a lie from the father of lies. And you’re here to meet the good father that has only truth for you. And I’m going to show it to you. Tommy Carreras — But we need the systems and the environments that build it correctly and that that lean toward those and produce those kinds of relationships or relational touch points. We need to set clear goals and we need to be relentless in our invitation into those environments. So just having a new here sign on a booth is not an invitation. It’s information. But when my favorite way to announce, for example, which should be an announcement, every single service, hopefully twice in the service. Hey, if you’re new here or you consider yourself new here, and if if you haven’t done this yet, we’d love you to go have a conversation at this place. We want to put this gift in your hands or this something and, and, and here’s what I would always say. And if you’re thinking that the free mug is a bribe to get to know you, you are exactly right. The mug is great, but what’s better is that we think you’re worth knowing and we want to make sure that you have every opportunity to have a familiar face next time you walk in the door.Tommy Carreras — Not, we want to meet you because it’s part of our organizational goal to identify this many guests so that hopefully you give at some point. That’s not a great message. The great message is you’re worth knowing. We think you deserve a familiar face who calls you by name next time you walk in the door. And hopefully also there’s going to be a next time. And we’d like to ensure that there’s a next time. So yes, it’s a bribe. All we want to do is get to know you. We stop by the place. Tommy Carreras — And that, that really worked because also we’re not being slick. We’re being honest. We’re being vulnerable. We’re being transparent. We’re saying we’re just here to do this and whatever it takes to get you there. That’s great. You can leave the mug. The point is we would love to get to know you because you’re worth knowing. And so we’re trying to make sure those environments exist. And then we also have to follow it up. Tommy Carreras — And that means training people training. empowering volunteers to actually accomplish the goal as opposed to accomplish what they think is the goal, but never really was. And so if they’re like, I got to sell the church. Nope. No, no, no. You got to remember their name and ask three personal questions about them. That’s my, that’s my goal for you. Just do that. Tommy Carreras — And if they come to the next thing, like we’ll, we’ll get them to the next thing. You got to mention the program that we want them to come to. That’s fine. They’re not going to come next week anyway. They’re not ready for that. Just get to know them. Rich Birch — That’s good.Tommy Carreras — And so we’re setting real goals and making them very attainable for those volunteers. And then we’re also doing it ourselves in staff and we’re not hiding in the green room, just a little note. But you know, if you’re on staff and you’re hiding in the green room, you know, would fix that. Just fix it.Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. Stop doing that. I love that. So super tactically, Greg, because we’re talking, we talked, you brought up the ethical bribe. I like to call it the like, Hey, we’ve got a great coffee mug or a water bottle. And you know, it’s one of those things. I love how you framed that, Tommy. Cause I like, think that’s a, that’s a great way even just to like unpack this exactly what we’re trying to do. I think that’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Greg, you’ve helped us think, you’ve helped me think so clearly around um how are we collecting people’s contact information, which is just the start of the of the relationship. Like we’re I think sometimes we can get that turned upside down. It’s like we’re trying to hit the metric because for some metric reason. No, no, it’s ultimately about trying to start a relationship. What are you learning about the timing, the context of all of that, of that kind of part of the service that we’re asking when we’re giving them? You know, what is the ethical bribe, all of that?Rich Birch — What are you learning these days for this very tippy top part of the transaction we’re talking about, the very first step? Is there anything that you’re learning there that we should be thinking differently about?Greg Curtis — I don’t I don’t know. I’m always cautious about saying what I’m learning as if it’s been learned. Rich Birch — Right. Greg Curtis — I think that we are experimenting with some new things in light of this. And I would say that one of the big shifts is it’s look, how do I say it? In light of everything we’ve said already about them looking for God, right? And not just life help. They, I think looking at their discipleship, there’s an old word, you know, but they’re they’re learning to follow Jesus, right? Their discipleship, becoming a follower of Jesus. We have always looked at that through just a biblical theological doctrinal lens. Like, do they know this? Have they done that kind of thing? Greg Curtis — And I think it’s an interesting thing to look at it through the journeys that they experience at at when they come into a new church from their angle. So I call them, I’ve said this before, I think to your crowd, but I call those three journeys the journey from the street to the seat, which really became from the screen to the seat after COVID.Greg Curtis — Right. Like I mentioned, the gal I met with ah on Sunday, she had already attended our church twice online before she had come. And many churches I have talked to, their average is about four times that they’ve attended your church online. But that journey from, say, the screen to the seat where they’re ah they’re seeing you on their television. But then it’s the parking lot, the greeters, the info counter, kids checked in, ushers, whatever. Right. That journey is is so important. Greg Curtis — And that journey is about but ah belonging. But then you get the journey from, ah that’s really the growing journey, which is what they’re there for. And that’s a journey from the seat to a circle. And that’s because the circle is the environment we know works best for somebody to grow, where they’re just kind of FaceTime with people, you know, that in Tommy’s words, they might want to imitate, right? And learn from.Greg Curtis — But it’s so important to get that information. We’re making a big shift where instead of like we’re actually experimenting and saying this for the last few weeks at our church where we’re not collecting their information at all at the at that stage. What we’re doing is saying just come get a free get come get…in our case, we have like a grill where they could get a free meal. Come get a free coffee drink or meal or whatever on us. And we’re we’re not asking them for anything. We’re just creating engagement.Greg Curtis — But we’re starting to shift because we are baptizing, like in our in our case, over the last 15 months, we’ve baptized over 1800 people. And that’s a big that’s a big shift from targeting what I call cold leads to warm leads. You know, you want to get engagement, start collecting stuff and engaging with people when they’ve been willing to get wet in front of people they don’t know, because they made a decision to follow Jesus. That’s a warm lead.Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — Somebody, you know what I’m saying? And in the, in the spirit of the parable of the talents investing where the, you’re starting to see results, you know, in the fruit and just being strategic about that.Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — That’s where we’re pouring in some of our, of our best stuff. We’re experimenting with that. I’m not telling people to do that yet because we don’t know how that’s going to work for us.Rich Birch — Yes.Greg Curtis — So let me just say that in the… Rich Birch — Yes. That’s good. Yeah.Greg Curtis — But moving them from the seat to the circle through that kind of engagement, you know through whatever one program you have, inviting them into a ministry team, a small group. And then that third journey is the journey, you know once it’s belongings established, growing established, then it’s it’s going, the journey about going.Greg Curtis — That’s the journey from the circle back out to the street. And it’s really just equipping people to to not just know Jesus, but to be more like him and to imitate him ultimately, even through their other people examples. And ad I just think that there’s some great environments that we can talk about later that really equip them to do that. Because we may look at the Bible and see, here’s discipleship steps. But from the guest vantage point, it’s their journey from the screen to the seat, the seat to the circle, and the circle back out to the street. And so what environments are we creating?Greg Curtis — And like you said, how are we engaging with them? When do we get their contact info, right? When do we invest in in the engagement? And for us, it it seems a worthy experiment to shift to, because we are seeing so many baptisms in light of the the huge God interest, is to start it’s like a it’s a it’s a discipleship moment to let the discipleship issues drive when we do what. And look at it through the lens of these journeys that guests experience our church with. Right. So that’s a little bit about, you know, what we’re looking at in there and on the front end.Rich Birch — Love it. Well, I friends who are listening in, I was really hoping that you’ll take steps to get connected with Greg and Tommy. We’ve talked about a bunch of stuff. The problem with these things is, man, we can just keep going. And like, there’s so much in this that I find fascinating and, you know, I’ve always loved when people connect. Rich Birch — I do want to kind of pivot and talk a little bit about how you guys help churches. So first, maybe Tommy, talk to us about, you’ve got this incredible free audit that you’ve made available for folks. Talk to us about the audit. How will it help us? We’ll put a link to in the show notes about it. But I really think 100% of the people that are listening today should take this. This would be a great next step for folks coming out of today. Talk us through this a little bit.Tommy Carreras — Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite things about the audit, because it’s it’s a brand new tool that we just rolled out. Because we had a 63-point checklist before, and it was phenomenal. I worked through every item on that checklist…Rich Birch — Yes.Tommy Carreras — …when Greg initially rolled it out a long time ago. And what we did was we took our own medicine and said, how do we reorganize this instead of around an organizational checklist of do we have the features that we think are valuable? Instead, we said, well, what what milestones are going to help a guest on their journey. And so we, we organize the assimilation audit around the three journeys of the guest, not the environments of the church. Tommy Carreras — Now the audit does say, well, this is an environment that meets them in this thing that they’re looking for on their journey, but, do you have the environment? Is it working? Is the main question usually is, is it actually working? And we give you some actual markers around whether or not it’s working. Because the the reality is you have the programs, you have the ingredients, you have the volunteers, you probably have a great Sunday experience. And yet all the people are still disappearing or at least most of them. And they’re, the problem is they do it quietly. They don’t write in and tell you… Rich Birch — Right. Tommy Carreras — …by the way, I left because I didn’t find somebody that I could imitate quickly enough because what I really had was all this baggage from this… They don’t tell you any of that. You just never knew they were even there. Rich Birch — So true. Tommy Carreras — And so what we’re trying to do is look at the experience and go based on all the churches that we’ve worked with, Greg, for over 12 years and seeing this happen over and over and over and seeing the remarkable consistency in the issues and the challenges. We said, here are the leakage points in the system. And some of them are pretty surprising. Some of them are super obvious. But what this will do is actually help you audit the effectiveness of those experiences, organized by what the guests are hoping they experience. They’re desperately hoping you can provide for them on their journey.Tommy Carreras — And the best part about it, honestly, like it’s a Google doc right now. That is, I’m just giving you that admission because also it’s not a fancy tool that I vibe coded like Rich recently vibe coded one of his really cool assessment tools. I haven’t done that yet. And the the reality is though, it’s a Google doc because also you should write some notes on this thing and you should sit around it as a staff and share it and have real conversations.Tommy Carreras — Cause the, the, the gold of this audit is going to be in the conversation and the arguments: No, I think it’s red. No, it’s yellow. It’s doing okay. But what about this person? What about this person?Rich Birch — That’s good.Tommy Carreras — Will somebody go pull up the numbers? Because the numbers… That’s where the gold is in the audit. And it’s, I mean, it’s a lot. It’s a lot of stuff to dig through in your system because it’s 49 points. It’s 49 stops along the way on those three journeys. But you’re going uncover so much. And then I think that it’ll give you a really clear pathway toward, okay, well, here’s what we should do first. Rich Birch — That’s good.Tommy Carreras — And that might be the most important thing about it.Greg Curtis — I would just say, too, on that point that for your listeners, if you’re at a point where you are either feeling alone in in wanting to see a breakthrough in engagement or you have a team and you guys are just kind of spinning your wheels and you have the same results all the time and wanting to see them increase and they really don’t that much, this thing is do it for a few weeks together in meetings. It will invigorate. And you’ll do it do it with a team, even if if ah ah but ah a team of key volunteers yeah in a smaller context.Greg Curtis — But make a day retreat or something out of it and really go through it. And you will find that you, oh my gosh, you can shake out all of the obstacles, all the pain points and weaknesses. It will be very, very helpful and rejuvenating. And it’s free. So there’s that.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, and we’ll put a link to that in the show notes. I really do think this would be a great next step for everybody who’s listening in. Super helpful. Great. It’s crazy that it’s free to me. You know, don’t don’t trash talk that it’s just a Google Doc. Like, man, a lot of intelligence built into that that, you know, we want people to take.Rich Birch — And then the second thing, Greg, could you tell us about the Sherpa tribe? Because I think there are people, well, I know there are churches that are listening in that, you know, you talked about earlier, there was this, you know, hey, there’s 1300 guests or or, you know, sorry, Tommy was talking about the fact there’s 1300 guests at this church, and they should have had a lot more. That has been my experience with 100% of the churches that I’ve talked to around these issues, we’re missing people. So how does the Sherpa tribe help with that? How does that actually help us find those guests, get them to stay, get them to serve and to start growing? What does that look like?Greg Curtis — Well, alongside of looking at the guest journeys in these three ways that I earlier described, we we find that each church, once they do the audit, has a different weakness. You know what I mean? Some of them are common, right? But they ah they’re at their own place and shoring up and strengthening different aspects of that journey. Greg Curtis — And so what we did is we took our video course, which was one of our mainstays, and we started breaking it up and creating a ton more videos that breaking up around 10 minutes and then creating action points for each one and allowing ah people who become part of our Sherpa tribe—which you can go to assimilayas.com and click on Sherpa Tribe, find out more—to to to go right where they need it and study the things and action points that they need. Go deep in that. And then weekly meet with Tommy or I, with other people just like them from around the country and beyond that in these Zoom sessions where there’s no agenda but you. Rich Birch — Right.Greg Curtis — And you bring your questions and what you’re struggling through in this. And we have the most dynamic and fun conversations that create breakthroughs for teams through those through those Zoom moments. Tommy, would you add anything to that?Tommy Carreras — No, I think the the other the other piece of the puzzle that’s so powerful is we’ve seen the we’ve seen the best results from the folks who haven’t just jumped in to go like, I got to shore up a thing and get some information and and then get out and then you know milk it for all it’s worth and just get in.Tommy Carreras — What they’re really, that the churches who are getting the most out of it are the ones who say, this is the year where we fix this. Greg Curtis — Yeah, yeah.Tommy Carreras — This is the year where we look different at the end of it. This is the year that our staff gets it. There are no more people just sitting around in workflows or process queues 29, 42, 83 days overdue. That is the biggest crisis that we could have now because we all get it. We’re speaking the same language and we’re serving each other and we’re doing all these things to shore up all of these systems because it’s not just one person. And most likely it’s most people’s second or third job on their actual plate. Tommy Carreras — And so we’re trying to skip them up to third base on all of these different kind of sections of their assimilation system. And we’re trying to give them the people and the contextualization that’s going to make it come to life for their entire team. But it’s it’s the churches that go, we’re going to make it this year is going to be the one where things change.Tommy Carreras — And they they dive in and they go, I’m going to commit to this thing because they believe that it’s a keystone. It’s almost like a keystone habit. We fix this. Everything else is going to make more sense in our church. And that’s assimilation is a mindset and ah a sort of almost a belief system, not just a couple different environments in our church or a couple different process cues. And so those are the churches that are really crushing it inside the tribe.Rich Birch — Yeah, that that’s fantastic. And friends, again, we’ll link to that. It’s assimilayas.com where you can you know connect more with Tommy, with Greg, with everything that they’re they’re doing. And you know super hearty endorsement from me. You guys do great work and I think it’s super helpful for many churches. This is one of these areas that if we don’t keep an eye on over time, we’re just missing people. We’re missing people taking steps closer to Jesus.Rich Birch — Tommy, why don’t I give you the last word here? Any kind of last encouragement as we wrap up today’s episode that you’d like to share with listeners who are you know thinking about these issues? Obviously, these people are the better part of an hour in. What would you say to them as we wrap up today’s call?Tommy Carreras — Yeah. I was at a church recently and they I was working on mostly data with them. Okay. And they said, hey do you want to talk to the staff for 20 minutes? And I said, okay, sure. Random. I’m going to try and convince them that data matters. And that they okay, they should love their church management software at the end of this 20 minute talk.Tommy Carreras — And by the end of it, they did actually. They believed me. But the whole idea was I led with there’s a whole bunch that got to it, but the the crux at the end was every form response. Every time somebody gives us their information is a miracle. God has moved heaven and earth since before time began to get them to put their name, email, and phone number on that stupid Planning Center form. And it’s a dang miracle.Tommy Carreras — And if that’s true, then every single person in a queue or a workflow or a form, you know, submission, whatever you call in your church management software, that is a sacred opportunity and a massive burden of leadership on our shoulders.Greg Curtis — Yeah.Tommy Carreras — And every red light overdue, 23 days not started, all of those are massive warning signals in our ministry. All because it’s a miracle that anybody would say yes to anything. And how could we not do everything in our power to lean in meet them there and steward their next step and get them across the gap that they are not going to and may not be able to cross on their own.Tommy Carreras — That’s the opportunity ahead of us. And it’s just sacred. And I hope that we don’t miss it.Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, thank you so much, guys. really appreciate you being on the show. Again, that’s assimilayas.com. We’ll link to all of that, but appreciate you being here today. We’ll have to have you on again in the future because this is such an important area, but appreciate you being here today. Thank you. Tommy Carreras — Thanks, Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Jon-Michael Sherman and Eric Smith, the team behind SermonDone—an AI-powered platform designed specifically to help pastors with sermon preparation, research, and media creation. Their goal is simple: help pastors save time so they can focus more energy on shepherding people, developing leaders, and delivering impactful messages each weekend. Are you feeling the weekly pressure of sermon preparation? Wondering how new technology like AI could actually support your preaching rather than replace it? In this conversation, Eric and Jon-Michael explain how tools like SermonDone are helping pastors streamline research, develop sermon series, and extend the reach of their messages beyond Sunday morning. Building an AI operating system for pastors. // The idea for SermonDone began during a conversation with pastors at a conference about how they were—or weren't—using AI in ministry. Jon-Michael realized many pastors either didn't know where to start or were piecing together generic AI tools that weren't designed for ministry contexts. The team set out to create what they call an “AI operating system for pastors,” built specifically around the real workflow of sermon preparation. From planning long-term preaching calendars to turning sermons into small-group resources, the platform was designed to support the full lifecycle of preaching. Their goal is to eliminate the intimidating blank page pastors often face on Monday mornings and provide tools that help them think, research, and prepare more efficiently. Saving pastors time without replacing the pastor. // The purpose of SermonDone is not to replace pastors but to free up their time for the things that matter most. Many pastors spend countless hours gathering research before they ever begin writing. SermonDone accelerates that process by compiling detailed research reports in minutes, allowing pastors to move quickly into prayerful reflection and message development. Eric compares it to meal-prep services that deliver ingredients to your door—you still cook the meal, but you don't have to spend hours shopping. In the same way, pastors still craft the message, internalize it, and deliver it with passion; the platform simply helps gather the “ingredients” faster. Deep research and sermon writing tools. // One of the platform's most unique features is its deep research capability. SermonDone deploys multiple AI agents to explore various aspects of a biblical passage or theological topic and deliver a comprehensive research report in minutes. The report can include historical background, theological insights, commentary perspectives, and practical applications—equivalent to the work of multiple research assistants. Pastors can then write directly within the platform using an AI assistant that provides feedback, cross-references, and suggestions as they develop their sermon. The goal is not to automate preaching but to equip pastors with better information and more time to internalize and communicate the message effectively. Extending the impact of sermons beyond Sunday. // Another major focus for SermonDone is helping churches extend the life of their preaching content. The platform can automatically generate sermon clips for social media from a YouTube link, allowing churches to create multiple short videos that highlight key teaching moments. Upcoming features include adding B-roll footage and music to clips, helping churches produce engaging content that keeps the sermon message circulating online throughout the week. The platform also creates graphics and other media resources so churches of any size can maintain a strong digital presence without needing a large communications team. Creating a personalized preaching assistant. // SermonDone includes a feature called “My Library,” where pastors can upload past sermons, documents, or other teaching content. The platform analyzes this material to learn the pastor's theological framework, communication style, and recurring themes. Over time, the system becomes increasingly personalized, offering suggestions and insights based on the pastor's own voice and past teaching. It can even identify patterns in a pastor's preaching—highlighting repeated themes or areas where fresh perspectives might be helpful. Addressing concerns about AI in ministry. // Both Eric and Jon-Michael acknowledge that some pastors remain cautious about using AI in sermon preparation. Their response is that technology has always shaped ministry—from printing presses to radio, television, and the internet. AI, they argue, is simply another tool. Used wisely, it can accelerate research, expand creativity, and help pastors spend more time shepherding people rather than staring at a blank document. To learn more about SermonDone, visit sermondone.com. The team is continually adding new features designed to help pastors research faster, preach better, and extend the reach of their sermons throughout the week. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they're reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you've been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. Got some returning friends, returning guests on the podcast, which you know what that means. These are people I like who I think you should be paying attention to. Really excited to have Jon-Michael Sherman and Eric Smith from SermonDone. If you do not know SermonDone, where have you been? You’ve been sleeping under a rock somewhere. It is the premium AI assistant, build just for pastors like you. It’s a tool that helps you with really everything to do a sermon prep from deep sermon research, to planning an entire series, even generating the first draft that’s theologically aligned and sounds just like you. Plus, we’ve got some new stuff that they want to talk about today. But welcome to the show. So glad you’re here today, guys. Welcome.Eric Smith — Thanks for having us, man. We’re super pumped to be here and thanks for having us back.Rich Birch — Nice. It’s good. Eric, why don’t you bring us up to speed a little bit on where has SermonDone been since we last talked? You know, what’s been going on these last few months?Eric Smith — Yeah, so the last few months have been incredibly exciting. We have really almost re-envisioned even the original platform, and have expanded it to be so much better than it was before. Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Smith — It was great before, and it was a great resource. But just like anything, we continued to dream and stretch ourselves and really push ourselves to expand the platform to offer more resources, to save pastors more time, and to help pastors be more effective. Rich Birch — Love it.Eric Smith — And so we’re going to talk about a lot of those different features today and super pumped to share those and excited about all that’s happening.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Jon-Michael, why don’t we start with you kind of roll the clock back for people who maybe haven’t been following this story. Friends, I think this is an incredible tool that you should be trying. And actually, you’re going to want to stick around till the end because they’ve got this incredible thing that they’ve just rolled out that you’re going to want to try. Rich Birch — But Jon-Michael, roll the clock back. Tell us a bit of the founding story. What what are you really trying to solve? What’s the problem that you’re lying awake at night wrestling with, trying to to help so many church leaders with?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, first of all, great to be back with you, Rich. And always love listening to the show. Long time listener, happy to be a guest. We started this over a year ago at a pastor’s conference in a breakout session with a bunch of pastors talking about preaching. And we were going around the room saying, how are you using AI? How are you using AI? Another person’s like, I’ve never used it before. I’ve never tried it before. Jon-Michael Sherman — And so we said to ourselves, what would it look like for us to create really the AI operating system for pastors in every aspect of their process? Everything from research, being able to plan a 12-month or 24-month or 36-month or however many months you want to go preaching calendar, right? What if we could help you with that? What if we could help you with your discipleship resources and turning a sermon into small group curriculum?Jon-Michael Sherman — And so we started creating and we created without handcuffs. We just said, if we could be maximalist in our approach, and create the most amazing tools, what could we create? And so we went on this journey and we’ve been listening to so many of you that have been listening to this show, giving us feedback. I know many of the listeners on this show have emailed me personally and said, hey, John, could you make this for me? And I said, I’d love to. I love that idea. That’s a great idea.Jon-Michael Sherman — And so what you’re gonna be seeing now in this latest version is because of the listeners of this show, the feedback that’s come from this show. And pastors, you know, I’ve sat in that seat. I’ve been a lead pastor. Eric’s a lead pastor right now. And so I know the pressure of that Monday morning feeling. What am I going to do? The page is blank again. And I think we can clearly say now as a company, you really never have to start from scratch anymore.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And I don’t know if I ever told you guys this, but you know a year ago when I got to know you a little bit better, you graciously gave me access to the platform and I sent it to some preaching friends of mine. And I said, Hey, like, take a look at this thing. What do you think? And the part that I have found really impressive with what you’ve done is I feel like every time I’m back on the tool, there’s like something new. It keeps growing. It keeps expanding. You’ve, you’ve even from where it was a year ago, it’s like a totally different deal. It’s like, it’s, there’s all kinds of new stuff in there. And I’ve seen you pay close attention. Like you said there, Jon-Michael to, what you’ve heard people say and actually implemented that, which I think is commendable. Rich Birch — Eric, in your this is a part of what you do. It’s not the only thing that you do in life. As Jon-Michael had talked about there, lead pastor at a fast-growing church in Florida, Hope City. I think you’re three locations, if I’m if i’m correct. Rich Birch — One of the things I love that I’ve heard you say is, hey, this tool is going to help pastors save some time. That makes me lean forward. Let’s talk about maybe one or two of the new features that you think is going to help save some time particularly, that’s gonna maybe make this process a little more efficient so that we can focus on whether that’s meeting with people or some extra leadership stuff or what what’s a new new feature that kind of is gonna help us save some time.Eric Smith — Yeah, so everything that we do is all about helping churches grow. We want to help churches grow and we want to help them engage people. And so we believe the way that we do that is by saving pastors time, but not just saving them time, helping them maximize the time that they invest… Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Smith — …to create better sermons and better, you know, sermon clips and all the other things that we do. And so a couple of the new features that we’ve come out with since the last time we talked is now we actually have a sermon writer. So you go into the platform and you can actually write your sermon inside the platform. And what’s really cool about it is as you’re writing, you have an AI assistant right there beside you and you can, you know, ask it questions, you can get feedback, you can get cross references, whatever. So imagine you’re going through the process and you’re able to do that. Eric Smith — But not only that, as you’re building your slides, you can right click on anything that you have and it’ll immediately start building your slides for the weekend. And then on top of that, one of the other amazing features is after you’re done with the sermon, I wanted to create, I was telling Jon-Michael when we were building it, I said, I want to create something that’s going to help a pastor actually memorize and learn the sermon. Because it’s one thing to write a sermon, it’s another thing to internalize the message and then deliver the message in a dynamic and compelling way.Eric Smith — I think I said this the last time I was on the podcast with you. The way we deliver the sermon is actually just as important or more important than, than writing it. And so we created a feature in there where helps you memorize the sermon and walk through it. It also has a feature where you can preach straight from the platform where, you know, right there from your iPad or from your computer or however you preach.Eric Smith — I’m still old school. I preach on paper, but that’s just me. Uh, but yeah, but that’s one of the features. Another exciting feature is to help pastors, you know, really take the the research to a whole nother level. And so we developed something called deep research. There is nothing like this out there. You can’t do this with generic AI. It’s impossible.Eric Smith — And so I was telling Jon-Michael as we were brainstorming this idea, I want to create something for pastors that will help them get so deep and further ahead that when they sit down to craft the sermon, they have all the research they need. It’s kind of like this: you know, we go to the grocery store, we buy all the ingredients, we bring the ingredients home and we we cook the meal, we prep the meal.Eric Smith — What we’ve done is we’ve said, hey, just like there’s their services now that you can buy and all the ingredients come in a box and all you have to do is unbox it. You still have to cook the meal. Well, that’s the way this is. Deep research is we’re giving you all the ingredients in a research report that’s over 20,000 words. When Jon-Michael and I were building it, we wanted to wrestle with what would the average pastor who’s bivocational want to know, but what would also the PhD want to know?Eric Smith — And so the research, we have 23 AI agents that go out. They have four to 500 words of prompting that we wrote. It does deep research in 23 specific areas, every area you could want to know about a specific section of the Bible or a theological topic. And then it delivers in five minutes, it delivers a report back with all that information. I mean, it’s it’s absolutely amazing. That feature alone would cost you a ton of money. I mean, it’s imagine having 23 master level or doctorate level assistants that are going out and researching these different areas for and then delivering the report back. And now when you sit down, you’ve got all this amazing research to go through as you get ready to to prepare yourself to preach.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that feature. That’s incredible. I multiple times with, so I’ve been in the executive pastor seat, this you know, supporting some great, incredible communicators and multiple communicators, we have explored And ultimately never pulled the trigger on a research assistant or there’s organizations out there that will do this, that will put together a research brief and they’ll they’ll get a PhD student. And you’ll you’ll pay ah you know thousands of dollars a month for that kind of service. Rich Birch — When I first used your research tool, I was like, oh my goodness, this is exactly like that thing that we were looking at, that that, man, but it’s ah you’re making it available for every pastor, which is incredible. I’ve said in other contexts, preaching is a team sport. Although one person has to get up and do it, I get it. Ultimately, one person’s going to stand up this. What you’re helping do is is bring all that other um support from, other like you say, these 23 other agents.Rich Birch — Jon-Michael, a part of what I love is the partnership between the two of you guys and your whole team. When you’re thinking about the the features that you’ve been adding, one of the things you talked about was like you’ve been listening to people and saying, hey, here’s a change. Are there any of these new features particularly that you’re like, you know, the people are demanding. And so we added this, you know, what was one of those features or a couple of those features that really people have been excited about that you’re looking forward to releasing or maybe are just around the corner to releasing?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, well, we’re really excited about having sermon clips as one of our latest features. Rich Birch — Love it.Jon-Michael Sherman — People are absolutely loving it. It’s this immediate way for you to be able to put your YouTube link in and have incredible viral clips ready for social media. So I’ve led a church marketing agency in the in the church industry for 10 years. And I know the value of vertical video. It’s so important to let your sermon keep preaching beyond Sunday. However, ah you know, right now, you know, a clip alone can be somewhat engaging, but adding B-roll footage really helps it take it to another level. And so we’ll be releasing that here very soon right around the corner. So you’re going to have the ability to do even better edits than ever before.Jon-Michael Sherman — So imagine having 10, 20 clips to look through and then choosing the one that you love and then being able to add B-roll with high level stock footage and engage people in a big way. So people have been asking for it. We said, yes, we’re bringing it. It’s costing us a lot of money and we’re spending it for you guys. So we want you to have it and it’s important to us.Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, that’s amazing. I loved when I saw that you guys added that to the suite. One of the, a part of the work I do in the coaching/consulting with my churches is around invite culture. And, you know, one of the things we’ll often do is look at their social channels and give them some feedback, really benchmark against what the fastest growing churches are doing. And you would not believe how many times I’ve said to churches, how come you’re not doing sermon clips like that? That is like low hanging fruit. Three quarters of the reason why people attend your church is because of the teaching. And you know, being able to do a clip or two a day you know in the week following is a great way to keep that in front of people. I love that you’ve added that. Rich Birch — Tell me a little bit more about the B-roll, though. That’s kind of interesting. That that feels like that’s going to really punch it up, take it to a whole new level.Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, I think, you know, if I were talking to you 10 years ago, the hot thing to do was have a virtual visit video on your website. Remember those days where you would show people a look of, you know, here’s what it looks like in the outside. And this is what kids check looks that like and different things. Well, the beauty with B-roll is you can still put in that stock footage of your church, and clip that in with your sermon.Jon-Michael Sherman — So as you’re preaching, now here’s some B-roll of worship. As you’re preaching, now here’s some B-roll of kids check. As you’re preaching, now here’s some B-roll of the lobby. You can show off your church experience a little bit more and upload your own custom B-roll. Jon-Michael Sherman — Or you can use the stock B-roll that we have. So maybe you’re talking about a specifically emotive subject. You can then clip into some a stock footage that illustrates that emotion or that story that you’re communicating.Jon-Michael Sherman — So it just takes it to a whole nother level. Obviously, like the clips alone, the way they are right now are great. But just having those different tools that you’re able to add on to it. We’ll also be releasing some audio too. So along with that, if you want to choose or use from our our library of of audio, you can use that too. So songs, different things you want to add to your clips, you can really do it all within our within our new release.Rich Birch — That’s amazing. You know, this is the thing that’s incredible about your tool. Really, the suite of tools put together in in one ah you know one environment is, you know, you just keep adding new things. Eric, when you think, though, back to the core of SermonDone, when you think about the the thing that’s kind of getting used the most, what what what is the part of it? Like these, I’m assuming that these new tools, it’s like additive to a core experience. What part of it at its core are you kind of the most happy with or the most proud of? Okay, we keep working on this part of it because this is the piece that is so important to the overall ah kind of SermonDone experience. Eric Smith — Well, I think there’s, um it’s hard to pick one… Rich Birch — Or a couple, a couple. Eric Smith — …but I will we’ll say the unique thing about our platform, unlike anything else that’s out there, is ours has a media component. You know, we have sermon clips. We also do graphics. And so our heart is for, there’s so many pastors out there that that are all alone. They’re by themselves. They’re fighting the fight. And man, we are with you. We built this honestly for you.Eric Smith — And to have a pastor be able to, you know, even if their church is small or they’re a new plant and they’re just getting started to be able to do clips, but then also to be able to create graphics for events, graphics for their sermons. So literally in five seconds, you can have a graphic. And we give even just on our $99 a month lowest version, you get 100 graphics a month. Nobody’s going to probably use that many, but if you don’t like the way it was, you can tweak it, you can modify it.Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — And so um on the media side, I love all that. For me personally, using the product, developing the product, I love the ability, even with our sermon builder, to just when I’m sitting, you know, waiting for somebody at a coffee shop to meet and I have a thought or an idea and I type it into my notes on my phone about a specific, you know, devotion I was doing or a text I’ve been thinking about or a topic. And then I’m able to take those notes and throw those into my sermon builder. What that does is it just organizes those and begins to outline that for me.Eric Smith — It’s my words. It’s just helping organize it. And here’s the other thing, because our platform, unlike any other platform, has your personal pastor profile—When you set the product up, you build your pastor profile. You talk about your theological heritage. You talk about Bible translation. news You talk about your your preaching style and you upload sermons if you’d like to do that. And what happens is our AI begins to understand you more. And as does that, it’s going to deliver that content in a way that aligns with you and your theology. And in your delivery. Eric Smith — And so that’s really, really important. But I just I can’t get past the deep research. I mean…Rich Birch — Yeah, so good.Eric Smith — …I was pastoring. I’ve I’ve been blessed to pastor for a long time now, and I’ve been blessed to pastor three different churches that grew incredibly fast. All glory to God. And I was in a church I was pastoring in Alabama. I was it I planted two and I pastored and revitalized one. So I’m a weirdo, I guess, in that way. When we did revitalization, it was it was a large church and I’m there and I almost hired a company to do research for me.Eric Smith — And I got the quotes back, I got the demo the the sample report. And I was like, oh man, this would be amazing.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Smith — It was just it was just so much money, even at a large church.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Eric Smith — I cannot pull the trigger on this.Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — I can’t do it. Just imagine now, in our product, you get 10 deep researches for $99 a month. Rich Birch — Yeah.Eric Smith — To get one deep research with one of those companies would cost you hundreds of dollars and it would take hours and hours and hours for someone to do. Rich Birch — Yep.Eric Smith — Well, now we’re able to deliver that and it aligns with your theological framework. It is absolutely amazing. And so we literally are delivering delivering the ingredients to you. You still got to cook the meal, but we’re delivering it to you.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Smith — So I love that. That’s amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s so good. And I know um it’s been fun to watch your journey as an organization. And early on, one of the questions that people would ask is like, how is this any different than just a generic AI tool? And and I always from the beginning, I was like, no, it’s so different than just you know going on and having some you know chatbot conversation.Rich Birch — But to me, that question just isn’t even in the orbit anymore. It’s like, there’s so much of this, you know, you could not replicate. The amount of time it would take for you to build all these individual apps and all that just would be insane.Rich Birch — Jon-Michael, could you talk to us about the “My Library”? That’s been up and running now for maybe six or eight months. Maybe it’s longer than that now. What have you seen as users have used that to kind of help your tool be more custom? Because I think that’s one of the advantages that you’ve built in is, hey, this isn’t sounding like some generic, somebody else. It is giving me feedback that is related to things that I’ve preached in the past. How is how is that tool being used?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, it’s really quite remarkable because it really serves as an external brain for those of us who can’t remember what we said 10 seconds ago. And it seems to be that lead pastors all have that same personality.Jon-Michael Sherman — Do we agree, guys? Yeah. No, I mean, it’s, you know, it’s it’s true. And I mean, and listen, like no one in the world has the job that lead pastors have to go and have create 40 plus unique sermons a year and then somehow try not to repeat yourself. Right? Rich Birch — So true.Jon-Michael Sherman — So obviously the memorization of saying, have I said that before? When did I say that? But the beauty of being able to build on what you’ve already said and be able to remember yourself and pull up all the the past content that you’ve said in the past is remarkable. Again, we may write 3000 words of notes, but we’re going to speak 6000 words on the mic. And so being able to have all of those words as well captured within the platform is remarkable.Jon-Michael Sherman — Another really great one, I was working with a pastor in in Phoenix area. We uploaded his sermon library over the past couple of years, and we just said, hey, analyze me, you know, like, what are my, what are my themes? What am I repeating too much? What am I you know, am am I, am I, am I being diverse enough in my communication? You know, and it, it gave a deeply accurate profile of these are things you repeat. These are themes that are, ah that you, that you repeat. And it was just spot on. It was wild. It acted like a doctorate level, homiletics coach in a sense.Jon-Michael Sherman — And so we’re going to be doing some cool upgrades to My Library. Stay tuned.Eric Smith — Oh yeah.Jon-Michael Sherman — Right right now, you’ve got to be a little bit smart in the sense of like thinking about what to say. We’re going to make that a little bit more, click and go moving forward. But I’m telling you, if you upload your sermons in there, there’s a lot of amazing questions you can ask and you can get some honest feedback, maybe more honest feedback than your teaching team gives you. Who knows? So, the most honest one is our wife, right? Anyone else?Rich Birch — Yeah, true.Jon-Michael Sherman — Exactly. Yeah, she’ll tell you, but the AI will tell you too. you’ll They’ll tell you. So it’s great. We love it.Rich Birch — And that in My Librar…oh, sorry, Eric, I didn’t mean to cut you off.Eric Smith — Well, no, I was just going to say, I just want say this so I don’t forget. Maybe if you’ve heard about our product before, and this platform, and you tried it out months ago or a year ago, it’s so much better and so different. So I would just encourage you to jump back in and give it another go because the new features that are available are just absolutely phenomenal. And the reality that you can do the media and the research and the writing, is it’s it’s it’s just so robust in what it can do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s a good, that’s a good word. you know if I know there’s people that have tried it and maybe for one reason or another, maybe you you know you took ah took the summer off, you weren’t preaching for a few weeks and so you canceled. Hey, now’s a good time to re-up and you’ll be amazed all the different features that have been added and improved. Rich Birch — On the My Library, I just want to there’s a detail there I want to make sure we capture. You can upload. It’s a multimedia upload. You can upload audio, video. What’s that whole list of things that you can upload to that?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, everything from you know your files that you’ve written, your your sermons you’ve written. You can use Google Drive to link in. YouTube link is very popular, being able to you know upload your sermons via YouTube link. Jon-Michael Sherman — So it’s always better if you have the version where the the worship isn’t playing, but just just your sermon, that part, that’d be the good one to use when you upload it.Jon-Michael Sherman — But it is smart enough to know the difference. It’s, it’s wild. But it’s, it’s really amazing. So again, it’s not just every word that you’ve written. It’s every word you’ve, you’ve actually preached from the mic. You know, cause I’ve never written out my full stories. I don’t know about you guys, when you’re doing a sermon, I just say, tell this story, right. Rich Birch — Yes.Jon-Michael Sherman — [Inaudible] my notes. But the actual story I spoke through the mic. So it’s going to capture all of that when you’re in My Library.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true.Eric Smith — Well, one of the things on My Library is if you have other theological documents. For example, if it were you, Rich, you could take all your podcast and put there, right? All the scripts from your podcast, you could load up in there. Rich Birch — That’s great.Eric Smith — And so think outside the box. Don’t just think: sermons I’ve written or even sermons I’ve preached. Maybe it’s theological papers, maybe it’s blogs, maybe it’s podcasts. There’s other things that you can put in there as well.Rich Birch — Eric, I want to play the devil’s advocate here for a minute. Because I know there’s people that are probably thinking this. We’re 20 minutes in. They’re maybe interested but a little suspicious of just the use of AI in sermon prep in any way. They’re like, I just don’t know. This is this is this is a bridge too far. I’m just not sure we should be doing that. I’m you know, I’m I’m concerned. I’m nervous. I think you know this is going to be really negative for me. What would you say, not necessarily somebody who’s being combative, but is honestly asking you, is picking up with the phone and saying, Eric, I trust you. But talk to me about that.Eric Smith — Yeah, so I think everybody has to operate in the different convictions they have. Our belief is that we highly trust pastors.Eric Smith — Rich, you know thousands of pastors. We know thousands of pastors. Yeah, there’s a few out there that may not be the greatest, but pastors are amazing and they’re high integrity people. And so we trust you. You you operate with your conviction, number one. Eric Smith — Number two, I would just say this. You were already using it and you didn’t know it. We’ve been using AI for a long time. Google is AI. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true Eric Smith — What’s happened is it’s just gone from you know slow speed to super fast. And so really there is no difference in what we’re doing. It’s just delivering content faster. And people say stuff like AI is the devil or whatever. It’s just pulling data. It’s just pulling data.Eric Smith — I mean…So all it’s doing is the computers are so good and so smart that they can ah research and pull data faster than ever before. And so why would we not want to speed up that process? All of us are using Amazon because it sped up the process for me to get the thing delivered to my door. Is that a bad thing?Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — No. Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — I will say no pastor that we know of that’s ever used our product is just, you know, using AI and then stepping up on the platform and then using it to preach. They’re using it to research. They’re using it to to refine things. They’re using it to wrestle with, I have this statement. How can I say this better? They’re using it for things like sermon clips, and and or uploading your sermon in our discipleship area that we have on our platform, you can upload it. It’ll turn your sermon into kids curriculum. It’ll turn your sermon into small group curriculum. It’ll turn your sermon into small group questions. It does all that as well.Eric Smith — And so it’s taking your content and reorganizing it in a different way. Why would we not use? We’ve done this throughout history where we’ve used things to advance the speed of something. Of course, none of us ever want to get away from praying, seeking the Lord, asking the Holy Spirit to guide us and lead us. This is just allowing us to get the ingredients together faster…Rich Birch — Right.Eric Smith — …so that we can actually spend time on what makes a sermon great. What is it that makes a sermon great? It’s not what’s on the paper. I can preach the same sermon as someone else on Sunday and you could look at our paper and go, wow, that looks just the same. But one of our sermons might be a lot better because, number one, we allowed it to really take root in our heart. We allowed it to simmer in our soul.Eric Smith — And so if I can help pastors move faster through the researching and gathering of the material, so that they can put the sermon together and it really take root in their soul. And then second prep on the actual delivery of the sermon. In the platform we have a masterclass that I put together on, really, sermon delivery. If I can help pastors do that, what’s going to happen is it’s going to save them time, but not only is it going to save them time, it’s going to help them preach better sermons. And as said before, our focus, our heartbeat is to grow the church and to engage believers in the body of Christ. Rich Birch — It’s good.Eric Smith — And so for us, we can help pastors preach better, churches grow. Why? 82% of people choose their church based on the quality—it’s either 82 or 83. I could be off 1%—the quality of the sermon. Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Smith — And so, pastor, you should do everything you can to preach better sermons. And this is a tool that we want to come alongside you and serve you. We are here to serve and make your sermons better. And that’s our heart. So that’s what I would say.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. You know, I know that people have a concern anytime there’s new technology, but I love how you frame that, Eric, that it’s, in you know, it’s, We’re already using parts of this. It’s a part of all of our everyday lives. And how can we use it in a way to really accelerate the mission to try to get, you know. And I think that if I would say the only thing I would add, if I was listening in today and I had that hesitation, I would just take a step towards it and to learn about it, to actually try a tool like or try SermonDone specifically, ah you know, like and and see, hey, maybe there’s a way that this could help.Rich Birch — And I would agree with you. It’s not, you know, it’s not a, you don’t go in there and be like, hey, give me a great three-part sermon on John 3:16. You know, that’s not what this is. It’s, hey, I’m working on this. It’s a bunch of tools to help you think through and to process all of this and then to ultimately give you the the time to to prepare it.Rich Birch — Jon-Michael, what anything you’d add to that kind of the, maybe the hesitant pastor who’s who’s a little bit worried about this and is, you know, yeah doesn’t want to go left behind, but is also concerned about it?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, you know you know me, I’m probably going to be a little bit not as nice as Eric. would I’ll try to but i’ll try to be nice, but I’ll just put it this way. You know, look, it’s just the way it goes. When new tech comes into the church world, we go through five phases. The first phase is it’s demonic.Jon-Michael Sherman — You know, ah the Nephilim came down into spacecraft and and handed AI to, you know, Peter Thiel and he’s bringing the Antichrist and it’s over… Rich Birch — Right. Right. Jon-Michael Sherman — …you know, the the military is going to listen to me through SermonDone.com. Rich Birch — Yes. Jon-Michael Sherman — You know, like that’s, what’s I’ve had, I’ve talked to guys on the phone that have thought that, okay, that’s real life. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — Even it’s funny, but it’s true. It’s demonic.Rich Birch — Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — And then it goes, well, that evil mega church down the road is doing it, but I would never. I would never we grab our pearls and we clutch up.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — And then it goes to, well, I’m using it secretly, but I can’t tell my pastor. I can’t tell anybody you know I’m using it secretly.Rich Birch — Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — And then it goes to, well, of course we’re using it. And why isn’t everyone on staff using it? If you don’t use it the next 30 days, you’re getting fired. And then it goes from that to like, hey, welcome my breakout session here at Exponential. I’m going to be teaching you how I use AI. Well, 10 minutes ago, you thought it came off a spaceship, you know. But this is how we are, okay?Rich Birch — Right, right, right.Jon-Michael Sherman — Like this is just how we are. So we’re somewhere in the mix right now, depending on who’s listening. Okay, you know, it’s fun. But here’s the real issue is this. It truly is this. It It depends on which tribe you’re coming from. But there we, all of us, as lead pastors, guys that get in the pulpit, we all have one sin that we struggle with, and it’s pride. And we have to realize that we have this treasure, the gospel, it’s in a jar of clay. And you know what? Like we are broken vessels and we ah we we are a broken you know medium and the message is pure. The message is the gospel. The message has to go out. Jon-Michael Sherman — And so whether we’re using radio, television, artificial intelligence, you know, we’re streaming online right now using ah the Internet. The medium is is is not the thing that I’m worried about. It’s the message, is the gospel. And so whatever a tool the Lord gives us, let’s use it for his glory and our good. But let’s not let pride get in the way.Jon-Michael Sherman — So I’m going to speak into the Pentecostals because I grew up hanging from a chandelier. OK, I had a binky in one hand and a chandelier in the other. OK, I grew up Pentecostal holy roller.Jon-Michael Sherman — We have man-of-God complex. And this is what we do. Saturday night, the Lord speaks okay to pastor. And then he comes down from the mountain of God and he delivers the tablets, you know. Common phrase growing up was, I got woken up two in the morning. The Lord, the lord changed it up.Rich Birch — Right.Jon-Michael Sherman — Dude, you didn’t have a sermon until two in the morning last night. I know you’re you’re golfing all week.Rich Birch — Right, right. It’s called pressure. Last minute pressure. Yes.Jon-Michael Sherman — Exactly. Okay. And and it’s We struggle with that because we want to be the man of faith and power for the hour, Pentecostals.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jon-Michael Sherman — We do. And so like all of a sudden AI can help me do this faster and better. And what will my congregation think, led by the holy demon in Silicon Valley, you know, whatever. I’ve heard, I’ve seen the comments, right? It’s, but that’s, you know, it’s about humility. Like we have no new truth here. This is the truth that God gave us. Rich Birch — Yep.Jon-Michael Sherman — And we have to be faithful stewards of that truth. So we we can have nice outfits, but we better be true to the gospel. That’s my Pentecostal friends. Jon-Michael Sherman — Now to my Reformed friends, who I’m very close with. I had a very long conversation with a friend who’s deeply Reformed about our product. There’s a different pride issue because knowledge puffs up. And a lot of us in the Reformed world, man, we have gotten these badges of check out my master’s, check out my doctorate, check out my library. And, you know, and no one can orate or exegete the way I can.Jon-Michael Sherman — Well, hold up. AI can exegete pretty well, actually. And so there’s a pride issue there. And so I’ve seen that tribe having pride problems, too. But if we can make it not about the medium or the messenger, but make it about the message, it’s about the gospel of Jesus Christ.Jon-Michael Sherman — And so, unfortunately, I’ve just seen AI bring out a little bit of pride in every tribe. And I think we all just need to humble ourselves and say, this is just a tool. We are just messengers and ambassadors of Christ. Right. You know, like we have this message of reconciliation. And so the message is still the same. The messengers were still full of pride and we need to be humble before the Lord every Sunday.Jon-Michael Sherman — You know, there’s nothing more humbling than preaching, I would like to hope, but sometimes we get it twisted. So that’s my fun anecdote on that one for those are that are struggling in the midst of it. And and for those of that are still struggling, I did write a book for you. It’s called Pastoral Intelligence. It’s a book to help you figure out some of these big questions like, what is AI? How does it work? How do I make it work in my team? Jon-Michael Sherman — And maybe you don’t want to read the book because you don’t like reading because you have ADHD like me. I have memes in here. I’ll just teach you through memes. So you can use a meme and it’ll tell you what you need to know about AI.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s hilarious.Jon-Michael Sherman — But I want to encourage you to get that you if you’re struggling through it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s fantastic. And I would say, you know, my heart similarly, you know, I’ve spent, like I said this earlier in the podcast, I’ve spent most of my career in the second seat supporting incredible communicators who spend a lot of time, effort, energy, blood, sweat, tears on this. And I saw that my job, a part of my job was to remove barriers from that person’s life to try to make that part of what they do easier or so they could focus on that more. One of the lead pastors I worked to, incredible guy, His process, his sermon process, he would read about a thousand pages a week. That was pretty typical for him. And he would start writing after dinner on Saturday night.Rich Birch — He would write all Saturday night, finish his slides at two or three in the morning, email them to our team. We’d get the slides made up early morning. And we tried to change this process. I’m like, I’m not sure that this is super healthy for you. He had been doing it for 20 years or 15 years by the time I had got and interacted with him. And I’ve often thought about Sermon Don. I thought, man, if we had this tool back then, we could have saved a lot of you know blood, sweat, and tears. There’s you know there’s a part of that research that we just didn’t need to be doing.Rich Birch — So anyways, I’m glad, heartily endorsed, excited that you guys are are doing what you’re doing. As we come to to land the plane, Eric, any kind of final words from you that you would say to a pastor who’s listening in today? I want to make sure pastors actually go to sermondone.com and actually try it out. Anything else we want to be saying to people as we land the plane today?Eric Smith — Yeah, you can tell Jon-Michael’s, the one that’s the most fun in the group, right?Rich Birch — Yeah!Eric Smith — Now, I would just say, you know, you should give it a shot. And it’s it’s it’s not even doing, you still have to read the research it gives you. It’s just gathering the content for you. And for me, I’m like, I don’t I don’t really let the noise bother me of the culture or what this person or that person is saying, I’m trying to serve the people that God has has called me to serve. And so if I can more effectively do that in a way that honors the Lord and reaches people…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.Eric Smith — …that’s, that’s my heart. And I know that’s every pastor that’s on here. That’s what they’re doing too. And so, uh, yeah, I would just invite you to give it a shot. Doesn’t hurt. Uh, when you sign up too, I think we have a code RICH20 to give 20% off because we love Rich Birch and the unSeminary podcast.Rich Birch — That’s great.Eric Smith — I guess Rich brings so much amazing content to the church world and God has used him in such a just a special way helping churches think through growth and strategy and systems and how to scale and you know the right things to do and so we’d love for you to try that out. And thanks, Rich, for all your time and what you meant to us.Rich Birch — No, I appreciate that, Eric. And we we keep saying this. We’ve got to have you on to just talk about the church side of your world at some point. We’re always like, well, we could get to that, but there’s always so much good stuff to talk about on SermonDone. We’ll have to have you back just on that. Jon-Michael, any any final words from you?Jon-Michael Sherman — Yeah, you know, I think it’s aptly put right now that no one here is is going to be replaced by AI, but maybe, you know, you might be replaced by someone who knows some of you as AI well. And I think it’s it’s a it’s a skill and a tool that you have to be embracing right now. And I think everyone needs to do that. Jon-Michael Sherman — Now, in three years, there’s a very good chance you know we’ll be back on the podcast and we’ll be talking about you know how to replace a staff member with an optimist robot, you know. I can imagine you know, I like you know youth pastors, optimist robot. You know, youth leader at camp, optimist robot. No one wants to be with a fourteen year old bunch of 14-year-olds at youth camp, you know optimist robot. With security at church, optimist robot with a gun. There’s a lot of great opportunities here in the future.Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Oh, my goodness.Jon-Michael Sherman — But I will say this, I’m just teasing, but like AI is so great. It’s a wonderful tool for God’s glory and our good. Let’s embrace it. Let’s like shake off the naysayers, enjoy it, love it. And we’re so glad we built this. We made this for you and we want you to have it and try it. And we’d love to have you jump on.Rich Birch — That’s so good. So again, that’s just SermonDone.com. You can use that code RICH20. I really would encourage you to, to try it friends. I think it’s a great tool. It can save you so much time. And so that you can focus either on, you know, working on that delivery piece of the puzzle or more time leading your teams, more time connecting with people, you know, counseling folks, whatever, you know, there, I just think it’s a huge tool for you. So yeah again, that’s just SermonDone.com. Thanks so much. Really appreciate you guys being here today.Eric Smith — Thanks.Jon-Michael Sherman — Thanks, Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Brandon Boyd, Executive Pastor at Quay Church in Windermere, Florida—one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. What began as a struggling congregation marked by multiple splits has experienced dramatic renewal and growth since a 2022 replant under Lead Pastor Luke Lazon. Is your church experiencing rapid growth that feels both exciting and overwhelming? Wondering how to scale systems, structure, and culture without losing spiritual health? Tune in as Brandon shares how Quay Church is stewarding momentum while building clarity, accountability, and lasting impact. From flat structure to scalable leadership. // When Brandon arrived in 2024, Quay had grown from 400 to 1,500 people, but its internal structure hadn't caught up. Meetings were crowded, decisions were unclear, and Sunday services were running long due to lack of coordination. The church had been operating as a flat organization where everyone contributed to every decision. That worked at a smaller size but became chaotic during rapid growth. Quay implemented tiered leadership levels: elders at 50,000 feet guarding mission and doctrine, an executive team at 40,000 feet solving forward-facing challenges, and a lead team at 30,000 feet ensuring weekly ministry execution. This created clarity in decision-making and allowed the church to scale effectively. Systems in many places leads to excellence. // A guiding philosophy Brandon has is SIMPLE—Systems In Many Places Leads to Excellence. Brandon introduced tools like Asana for project management, Slack for communication, and Otter for meeting documentation. Agendas are shared ahead of time, action items are clearly assigned, and meeting notes are converted into trackable tasks. Each meeting is defined by purpose—innovation, execution, or decision—so participants know what is expected. The tools support clarity, but the real goal is alignment and accountability. Guarding culture during rapid growth. // Growth creates urgency that can easily become chaos. Quay combats this with clearly defined staff values: Kingdom over castles. Nimble over fragile. Sled dogs over show dogs. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Burn the ships. These values act as decision filters. Everyone owns the broader mission, not just their ministry lane. Staff lead by example—serving first, giving first, even parking farther away to prioritize guests. A 2026 staff covenant outlines expectations for spiritual leadership, generosity, and ownership, ensuring alignment as the church continues to grow. Spiritual health beyond attendance growth. // While attendance has surged to nearly 2,700 adults weekly, Brandon points to transformation as the real marker of health. Spontaneous altar ministry has become a defining feature of services—not manufactured, but Spirit-led. People regularly respond in repentance, prayer, and life change. One man publicly confessed infidelity and committed to reconciliation. The church just celebrated 188 baptisms last year, reinforcing that growth is not just numeric but spiritual. Leading through overwhelm. // Brandon closes with a vulnerable reminder: rapid growth can be overwhelming. Leaders must acknowledge that reality rather than pretending to be superhuman. Honest conversations with lead pastors, elders, and trusted peers help prevent burnout. When God calls, He equips—but leaders must stay transparent and supported during demanding seasons. To learn more about Quay Church, visit quaychurch.org or follow @quaychurch on social media. You can connect with Brandon on Instagram at @bgboyd. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in today, and you’re definitely going to be rewarded for that. Today, we’re talking with a church that I like to say has platinum problems. Like every church wants to be a fast-growing church. They want to be, or you’ll hear leaders talk about in a season where they’re growing, where we’re capturing a church and a leader in the midst of that right now.Rich Birch — And I’m really excited to talk to Brandon Boyd. He is at Quay Church in Windermere, Florida. This is a fast-growing church. It’s one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. He serves as the XP. And I’m really looking forward to unpacking the story a little bit. Tell us a little bit about Quay and the history there, the story, what’s going on. Tell us, bring us up to speed.Brandon Boyd — Yeah, Rich, thanks for having me on the podcast today. Just such a joy to chat with you and tell all the incredible things that the Lord’s doing at Quay. So I’ve only been at Quay for about like 15 months. And so previously, I’m a native Texan, grew up in Dallas, served my home church in Dallas and another church in the Dallas, North Dallas area. And then the Lord transplanted us all the way out here to Orlando, Florida – Windermere, suburb of Orlando, which is on the north side of Disney World, which is pretty fun. And so I’m married and I’ve got three daughters. I live in a sorority, basically, which is really fun. Rich Birch — Love it.Brandon Boyd — And so when the Lord said, hey, I’m taking you to Windermere, was pretty easy yes for our family, for what the Lord had for us. And so, you know, Quay is a little bit of a replant. And so our church was initially started in the early 2000s and went through like two or three church splits. And we shouldn’t really have a church just because of those splits and what was occurring at that time period. Brandon Boyd — And I would say our church got replanted in 2022 when Luke Lazon, who was our young adult pastor at the time when he became the lead pastor. At that time, there was basically like 400 people that were calling our church home. We were known as Lifebridge Church at the time.Brandon Boyd — And then you fast forward to when I got here in May of 2024, we had grown to 1,500 adults. And then this past weekend, we had 2,700 adults with us, and then about 500 kids and students. And so it’s just been a wild ride these last three years. And I’ve just been fortunate to be a part of it in the past like 15 months.Rich Birch — Well I, yeah, I want to acknowledge that, you know, that kind of growth is, it’s exciting and fun and and have lived through similar seasons in the past, but there is also comes with a lot of challenges and a lot of like real world problems. And so I appreciate that you’ve taken time to, you know, help us think through these issues today. And even just before the call started, we were talking about stuff literally from last weekend that was like, well, there’s a new problem. We got to figure that one out. So excited for this. Rich Birch — Well, let’s talk about when you stepped into the role. So you you you arrive, you know, the church is obviously growing, had experienced incredible growth in the couple years before you got here, went from 400 to 1500. When did you realize that maybe not just that it was growing, but maybe the qualitative, the kind of what kind of growth Quay was having was was maybe a little bit different and was kind of going to inform the next couple of years. Help us think through what was that like when you first arrived, unpack that, you know, those first weeks or months.Brandon Boyd — Yeah. So my my first Sunday was Mother’s Day in 2024. And on that day, we had communion, we had baptism, we had a parent-child moment. And I looked up to us and I said, we’re just not communicating well. So we can’t have all these elements in a worship gathering taking place at the same time.Brandon Boyd — And so I started talking with our XP over worship and creative. And I just said, help me understand your planning process through the week. And so I took that first week just to ask a lot of questions like, how are we sitting together? How are we working together? What’s not working? And then what we started to do was start to organize our meetings behind the scenes. So we really took that summer of 2024 and start putting some processes in place that would help us kind of scale up well.Brandon Boyd — And part of that was we use a project management tool on the back end to make sure that everything is operating well. We use Asana. And some of this is what I learned in Dallas with our team there. And I took that and brought it here and scaled it. And so everything runs through a project through us on the back end. Worship is a project. All of our events are a project. And so everybody knows what is expected of them today. What is expected of them tomorrow, two weeks from now. And it’s also our accountability tool.Brandon Boyd — So back to that first Sunday, when we realized that we had all these things going on, Luke still preached for 40 minutes. And then they looked at me and said, Hey, we’re just always over time on our gatherings. Well, everything’s got to be spelled out. And so that was an initial thought that I said, this can’t be the Wild West anymore. Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — Because of the rapid growth that we had going on, knowing that we’ve got natural growth cycles coming up, whether it’s in the fall when school starts, and in January. And that’s kind of what we saw happen at Quay in that first year in 2024.Rich Birch — Yeah, there’s a lot there I want to unpack. And I want to get to meetings and and project management. I want to really dive into some of those details. But one of the things I’ve been, as I’ve kind of watched from afar, what’s happened at Quay, you guys have done a good job balancing the past, even just how you talked about there, kind of balancing, talking about the past, but then you know, projecting forward and kind of casting vision for the future, how did the church’s past really approach your, or has that, ah you know, kind of ah impacted your leadership as you’ve approached leading here in the, even in the current, or as you think to the future, how are those two connected together?Brandon Boyd — Yeah, I think just an axiom I live by is I always want to speak respectfully about the past, be honest about what’s going on presently, and optimistically about the future.Rich Birch — That’s good.Brandon Boyd — And so we’re super grateful for the people that went ahead of us that helped start this and plant this church way back in the early 2000s, and then had the foresight to kind of buy this piece of property in Windermere.Brandon Boyd — We’ve got part of our property is not developed yet. And we had a developer show up the other day that offered $5 million dollars for our grass kind of parking lot where we’re going to expand our campus on. But I couldn’t imagine unloading and reloading everything into an elementary school or a high school right now. So we’re super grateful for the people that went ahead of us, not only the pastoral leadership, elders, but also the people that called this church home, that hung on for the hope that something better was coming in the future.Brandon Boyd — And so they’ve been on this wild ride, up and down of, splits, attendance, differences, whatever else, but knowing that, you know, there ought to be a church in this part of Windermere, that there should be a gospel presence, especially in a place that’s so known for entertainment. Like you can stand on our roof at nighttime and see the fireworks from Disney World.Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — If the wind, if the wind is blowing just right, you can hear the whistle from the train at the Magic Kingdom. I mean, that’s how close we are. Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — So for a spot in Orlando that’s known for entertainment, why shouldn’t there be a place that is a flag spot for the gospel. And so knowing that those people went before us, knowing that you’ve got people moving here on a daily and weekly basis, we appreciate that, but we also got to look forward to the future.Brandon Boyd — And so we had this opportunity to kind of rebrand our church. So our church was named after our young adult ministry Quay. And a quay is a literal thing. Like it’s a place where ships unload and reload their cargo. And that’s just a metaphor for the church – that the church a place where people can unload the things and that are burdensome and get refilled up with the message of Jesus and take that out into their places of influence, to their schools, to their work places.Brandon Boyd — And so when we cast that vision early in 2025, the people that had been here when all the ups and downs of the church really saw, like this is the moment. And then they saw this surge of people that were coming in to hear the gospel message. We baptized this past year 188 people. Rich Birch — That’s great.Brandon Boyd — That’s adults, children, kids. Rich Birch — Fantastic. Brandon Boyd — I got to baptize my own daughter this past year, which is super exciting. But to see life change. So you go from this really small remnant that was left to see this surge and explosion, to see people, their lives being transformed for the gospel, I think is how they’ve just seen, all right, what’s next? What’s next, Lord, for us? And we’ve got this phrase here that stewardship is our responsibility, that we’re just merely stewards of what the Lord has provided to us. Rich Birch — Right. Good.Brandon Boyd — And so we’re just stewarding this moment. And we really want to set it up well for the people that follow me, that follow Pastor Luke, that follow any of us, that we want to leave it better than we found it.Rich Birch —Yeah, that’s so good. And I just want to honor you for how you guys even publicly are handling all that. Because I think particularly with the growth that you’ve seen, it would be easy to be like, man, isn’t it incredible what’s happening now, but even kind of just forgetting what’s gone in the past. So, you know, honor you for what you’re doing there. I think that’s that’s incredible. Rich Birch —Well, let’s get back to some of those rhythms. So one of the things you talked about was like, hey, we realized, oh, maybe these, ah you know, the meetings, we just, we didn’t have the right, maybe the right flow of information. Brandon Boyd — Yeah.Rich Birch — So let’s talk through what did that look like? How did you how did you pick that apart, diagnose the problem maybe first? And then how did we make some shifts towards the kind of system you’re currently running?Brandon Boyd — So our organization was a flat organization. So when I got here, everybody was involved in every single decision. Everybody, like there was a weekly staff meeting where everybody was there and they were pitching ideas left and right about what we need to do on Sunday, what we need to do for our student ministry programming. And then we had a weekly meeting where everybody was involved with all the event processes and everything else.Brandon Boyd — And so I think another obstacle that we were trying to work past was Luke went from, like I said, young adult pastor to lead pastor. So he went from a peer on the hall to the boss. And so I knew that we had to put some structures in place and we had to scale the organization, and had to put some meeting structures around that. So we created an executive team meeting that meets on Mondays. We created a lead team that meets on Tuesdays. And we put people in those meetings that had influence or had certain gift sets, or we took Working Genius. And so we’ve kind of started to strategize our meetings around Working Genius and putting people in meetings where they thrive. Brandon Boyd — So if they’re an innovator, if they’re a wonderer, then we may need to put them on the front side of work. If they’re more of an implementer and they’re more of somebody that can get the tasks done, they don’t need to be in all these meetings. So what we’ve tried to do moving forward is really name what the meeting is before it’s even called, so people know what the expectation is.Brandon Boyd — So what what we’ve tried to do over the past year is really provide clarity and expectation.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Brandon Boyd — So when somebody comes to a meeting, they know what they need to prepare, but then they also know what their expectation is in the conversation.Rich Birch — That’s great. A couple things I want to unpack there. First, ah for listeners, we had Patrick Lencioni on talking about Working Genius. If you should go back and listen to that episode, if you don’t know Working Genius, it’s a fantastic tool. Here’s an example of a church is actually putting it into practice, not just like reading the book and putting it on the shelf.Rich Birch — So can you pull apart the, when you say executive team and lead team, the kind of Monday and Tuesday, how do you, what’s the like 30 second definition between those two and their roles and responsibilities between those two groups and who’s kind of comprises those, those teams.Brandon Boyd — Yeah. So our exec, well, it really starts with our elder team. So for a period of time, like our elders had to be really involved just because of the nature of what was going on in our church. But they have since decided that they needed to fly at a higher level. So we’ll we’ll just talk 50,000 feet.Brandon Boyd — So the elders are at the 50,000 feet. They’re really guarding the mission and vision of the church. Rich Birch — Yep.Brandon Boyd — And then you come down to the executive team, which flies at 40,000 feet. And they’re really tasked at making sure that from an executive level, we’ve got you know all the the problems that need to be solved, that we’re looking at the vision forward, that we’re not only looking at the current week, but we’re looking six weeks out. We just wrapped up Christmas. We’re already talking about Easter. and We’re talking about Christmas already for 2026. Brandon Boyd — And then you step down to the lead team. They’re at 30,000 feet. And what they’re doing is making sure that our ministries are humming and running on a weekly basis and making sure that those budgets, ministry resources, calendars, everything are executing.Brandon Boyd — So what we’ve done is the executive team is obviously our lead pastor. We’ve got myself as executive pastor. We’ve got the other executive pastor of worship and creative, Justin Melton. And then we added our spiritual formation pastor, Mike Brook on that team.Brandon Boyd — Our lead team is the executive team, plus our project manager, plus our young adult pastor. Cause young adults are so important and and vibrant to our house.Rich Birch — Sure.Brandon Boyd — And that’s kind of like the impetus for the rebirth of our church. And then we’ve got like people in charge of kind our crews, which is our small groups and then kind of our volunteer teams in that. And so that’s kind of those teams.Brandon Boyd — And then out of that, you’ve got ministry teams that run on a weekly basis. And then our staff gathers for once a month where we pray together. we have some fun together. We eat lunch. And so let’s kind of put some meeting structures that we put in place and the purpose of them.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Brandon Boyd — So we’ve kind of walked through 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, all the way down to zero. So everybody knows what the purpose of each of those meetings are.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I’m assuming so you go executive to lead and then is there then like a weekly team meeting? So each of those people that are on the executive, or on the the lead team, they would then have their, you know, kind of trickle that down that information throughout the organization. Brandon Boyd — Yep.Rich Birch — Is that what that looks like basically?Brandon Boyd — Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.Brandon Boyd — You’re exactly right. So those ministry teams meet on a weekly basis. Rich Birch — Right. Brandon Boyd — And so, yep.Rich Birch — Okay. One other thing you said that caught my attention, which is a small, it’s like, since we’re sticking with the the quay metaphor, the the nautical metaphor, it’s a small, like a rudder. It’s not that big, but it’s it’s a huge deal. Actually, people knowing what we’re talking about in the upcoming meeting and being prepared for those meetings can be transformational in an organization. So talk me through what does that look like? What’s your expectation? And then when it’s running perfect, what is the kind of goal that we’re, we’re trying to go towards on that, you know, on that front, obviously that we don’t, we don’t bat a hundred, but I’m not even sure I’m mixing metaphors. Now we don’t bat a thousand. I think it is.Brandon Boyd — Yeah.Rich Birch — What is that? You know, what, what does that look like?Brandon Boyd — Yeah. If you’re batting a hundred, I think you’re batting pretty bad. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.Brandon Boyd — And so what what we try to do, I mean, we’re not afraid of tools. And so we use several different tools.Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — Already talked about Asana. We use Slack for internal communication. So we we really try to strive that we’ve got to get our agendas out ahead of time and then understand if there is an action item in the agenda so that people can understand what’s expected of them.Brandon Boyd — We use another tool called Otter that helps make minutes and notes. And then we disseminate those to the people so they know what’s expected of them. Otter does a great job of recognizing voices and then they’ll also tag people. Then we take that and dump it into Asana. Brandon Boyd — So if we’re having, we’ll just use our student ministry. If we’re having like our weekly Wednesday night student ministry programming for middle schoolers, they’ll know what’s expected of them from what our middle school director is speaking on to what’s expected from production to what’s expected from our creative team to what’s expected from our communications team on the website, social media, some of those other things.Brandon Boyd — And so we use, we’re we’re not shy to use tools. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Brandon Boyd — And so we use those tools just to make sure that everybody understands what’s expected before the meeting and after the meeting.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I’m an Otter user as well. Brandon Boyd — Yeah. Rich Birch — Use it in my coaching. And it’s it’s ah it’s transformed my own personal interaction with the churches I work with. And then I’ve actually had a number of churches pick it up and start using it. I had an XP, this was before Christmas, texted me after just one week. He was like, dude, this has changed our game because it’s like having someone, it’s like in every meeting having like an incredibly detailed assistant that’s writing notes on everything that’s going on and they don’t they don’t miss anything or miss very little, which is, you know, incredible. Rich Birch — So now let’s talk about so from there. So like I get the idea you’re using Asana, get that Slack, Otter, tools are together. How do you ensure that things keep simple and streamlined rather than becoming con, you know, yeah really complicated and, you know, were just bolting on stuff. How do you think about those issues as, as you’re growing?Brandon Boyd — So I’ve got a phrase that I learned at one of my churches in Texas, and it’s actually an acronym. It’s for SIMPLE. So, systems in many places leads to excellence.Brandon Boyd — So we just try to keep things simple. Like we launch a fourth gathering here. We’re at max capacity on Sunday mornings with all three of our gatherings from 8:15 and 11:45. So we’re we’re launching a fourth one here in a few weeks at Sunday night at 5 p.m. And so if we just take what’s replicable from the Sunday morning experience and add it to the the evening experience. But it’s just the basic thing. Brandon Boyd — So yes, we’ve got tools. Yes, we’ve got Asana. Yes, we’ve got Slack… [inaudible] to call a stand-up meeting and just to make sure everybody’s understand what’s going on and just have a conversation. Like my door, I’ve got an open door policy. And if my door’s open, just come on in and ask a question to make sure that you understand what’s going on.Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — I think it’s just the basic thing. Rich Birch — Right. Brandon Boyd — A lot of times we can hide behind email, we can hide behind Slack, we can hide behind text messages, but we’ve we’ve just got to be more proactive than reactive and say…hey, if you don’t understand something, then it’s okay to come ask a question because I may miss something because we’re involved at a different level.Brandon Boyd — And so what we try to do is just make sure that we’ve got avenues for people to ask questions, whether that’s having quick standup meetings before we run to a big initiative. We also run things where it’s kind of an integration meeting. So if we’re looking at Christmas, Easter, if we’re looking at another objective where we’re going to get everybody on the table and we’re going to walk through a checklist just to make sure even the most small, minute details are taken care of.Rich Birch — That’s good.Brandon Boyd — Part of it is like we’re a stickler for excellence. So we would say excellence is our standard. And part of that is just kind where we are with Disney and Universal and theme parks all over everywhere that everybody that goes to our church already has an excellence experience whenever they go to that. So why can’t they have the same excellence level when they come to church on Sundays?Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah.Brandon Boyd — So.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. A big issue in growing churches is, you know, the people side. So it’s related to what we’re talking about. But as you’re scaling, you know, your team has to continue to grow as people. They have to, you know, step up their game as growth has accelerated. How are you accelerating whether people are operating at their best contribution? They’re kind of really leaning in, you know, and they’re kind of performing at their highest. How how have you been able to keep an eye on that?Brandon Boyd — Yeah, I think this a growing thing for us. I’ve got a “no freak out” policy.Rich Birch — Right. Good. Brandon Boyd — So we’ve we’ve just got to talk through it.Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — We’ve only got about 20 full time equivalents behind the scene. Rich Birch — That’s great. Brandon Boyd — So when you’re in a church that’s twenty seven hundred and then you add in kids, you’re easily at thirty two hundred on a weekend basis. We have to run lean and mean knowing that we’re trying to project out for when we need to hire additional staff members or we need to hire some part-time.Brandon Boyd — We’re launching an internship program. And so what we’re trying to do is making sure that our staff team feels taken care of, feels heard, feels supported. And I think a lot of that is being accomplished by when we went from a flat organization, nobody, everybody knew who their boss was, but their boss didn’t know maybe what specifically what their directions were. So as we created the executive team, as we created the lead team, as we’ve got those ministry teams, we’ve created avenues for people to be able to feel supported and cared for.Brandon Boyd — And so what I’ve said to our team is you’re caring for the people just down the rung for us. Obviously, Luke and I are caring for our entire team. But just making sure that we’ve got avenues for feedback, avenues for just encouragement, avenues for conversation.Brandon Boyd — And then what we’re trying to figure out next is how do we hold people accountable? So how do we, yes, we’ve told people what’s expected from them. We actually created like a staff covenant for 2026. Like here here’s our expectations, just in case you’re you’re curious about what’s expected from you. And in case you’re caring, well, I was hired under this pastor and this was what the agreement was, that’s out the door. But as 2026 for Quay Church, just so we’re all entirely clear… Rich Birch — That’s cool. Brandon Boyd — …this is what we’re covenanting, not only, from us as a team, but to the Lord. And so we’ve got that. We’ve got accountability.Rich Birch — What are some of the, just before we leave that, what what are some of the things that landed in that? You don’t have to get into this… Brandon Boyd — Yeah. Rich Birch —…but, you know kind of categories of things that you’re, you’re recovenanting around?Brandon Boyd — We kind of made a joke that it sometimes we just, our volunteers, which we call stewards, they kind of outwork us.Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — And so like, hello, like we, we want to be the first one in and the last one out. And so in the covenant, it just talks about, Hey, we’re we’re going to be here for all the gatherings and we’re going to set the table and make sure that our house is ready to go before people show up.Brandon Boyd — We’re going to covenant. If we’re going to ask our church family to do something, whether be in a group or tithe or whatever, those things that we ask from the platform, we’re going to do it first. So one of the things that I just said to our staff team today is, we need to give up parking in our staff parking lot and we need to park in the farthest spots away on our grass parking a lot.Rich Birch — 100%, yep.Brandon Boyd — So those spots are ready to go for people. And so it’s just little things like that, just making sure that we’re super clear so that there’s no shadow of a doubt that as we go into 2026 and we kind of anticipated that we would have another growth wave based upon what we saw in 2024 and 2025, that in 2026, we just need to be clear what was expected from them as people stepped into it.Rich Birch — That’s cool. Well, when, you know, everything in a growth phase that you’re in, it can get chaotic pretty quickly, because everything feels urgent. It’s like, you know literally, even just the situation we talked about, and before we jumped on the call. It’s like, oh, my goodness, you know, we had a bunch of new more people show up that we’re excited they’re with us, but now we’ve got figure out how to keep them plugged in and all that. Rich Birch — How do you keep from the urgency turning into chaos? What are you doing to try to really push back in some ways and and keep your team focused? And I like that no freak out, you know, no freak out policy. Like, hey, let’s not freak out. We’ll figure it out. But but what’s that functionally look like?Brandon Boyd — I think part of it is it just goes back to our staff values. And so when we were looking, when I first came on board on this, on the church staff, Luke was like, Hey, we got to rebrand the church now. And I said, that’s a longer conversation that we need to roll out in a smart and healthy way. And also gives us time to cast vision. Brandon Boyd — But that first fall that I was here in the fall of 2024, we rolled out staff values and we really go back to those staff values to help people understand they’re not just phrases that we stick up on a wall, but it’s who we are as ah as a culture, as a people. And so one of our values is that we want to build a kingdom over castles. Rich Birch — Good. Brandon Boyd — So we’re more interested in obviously the kingdom of the church, the kingdom of the Lord, and not your own necessary small little ministry thing at Quay Church. So everybody is all in on the broader conversation of the church. Like I told our staff team this past week, as we look towards the launch of the fourth gathering here in a few weeks: No matter what your role is, you’re all jumping in and helping make sure that facilities is ready to go the next day. No matter what your role is, we’re all going to be nimble and shift to it.Brandon Boyd — Another phrase that we like to use is that we’re nimble over fragile. And so we don’t really hold on to things that that that we’re, that we created. We’re we we’re open-handed and open-palmed. It goes back to what I said earlier about stewardship. We’re just stewarding this whole thing. This isn’t ours. This is the Lord’s.Rich Birch — That’s good.Brandon Boyd — That comes down from our lead pastor to our team. He models that so well. And so we really just kind of run with the staff values. Our other staff values are: we take the risk And so we’re willing to take risks for the gospel, whatever that looks like. We’re willing to push that forward. We want to be sled dogs over show dogs. Rich Birch — That’s good.Brandon Boyd — And so we want to put in the good work and all pulled together in the same direction. “Slow is smooth and smooth is fast” is another one of our staff values. We believe that, yes, we can take time to make a decision, but once we make the decision, then we can run so much faster because we’ve got clarity. “Kingdom over castle” I already talked about. “Nimble over fragile.”Brandon Boyd — And then a last one is we just want to burn the ships. And so this is the day that the Lord has for us. And so while we do look back in the past from time, the past is in the past, and we’ve got today. We’re not promised for tomorrow, obviously. And so what can we do now with what the Lord is doing in our church to make sure that the message of Jesus is available to people not only in this part of Windermere, but also throughout the other Orlando regions?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so cool. When you think about Quay today, what tells you that the church is becoming healthier not just bigger? i know there can be like criticisms of, and listen, that comes from a place of h being on the other side of these questions when I’ve led before where there’s like this criticism. They look at something like Quay and they’re like, oh, like that’s just whatever. It’s a fad. It’s going, you know, but that’s not the case. What are some of those, either metrics, or stories, or things that you see happening that say like, oh no, things are actually heading, not just bigger, but also healthier.Brandon Boyd — It’s not like we have a growth strategy on my whiteboard over here and we’re like, hey, we got to hit this marker and this marker by then.Rich Birch — Yes. Right.Brandon Boyd — But I think what’s, I’ll just tell you a quick story.Rich Birch — Yeah.Brandon Boyd — We’re in a collection of what we call Sermon Series Collection of Conversations. So we’re in a conversation about Song of Songs right now. We call it Divine Desire, and we’re walking through that.Brandon Boyd — And the Lord has really blessed what we would call altar ministry. And so at the end of our gathering, especially during the last song, after the message has been communicated, people just come down to the front of the altar for prayer. Rich Birch — That’s great.Brandon Boyd — And we’ve got pastors, we’ve got elders, we’ve got deacons. And some of those things that are being communicated in those moments, like last fall, we had a gentleman come down and he said that he was cheating on his spouse and was repentant. And he’s like, I got to go get her now. And we’ve got to share this right now in this moment.Rich Birch — Wow.Brandon Boyd — So I think we’re seeing like real life transformation take place in the gatherings, obviously through the movement of the Holy Spirit. But then the Spirit is directing people to make inroads right now in that moment. Like don’t leave this building today before you’ve had a conversation with the Lord and you’ve confessed your sin. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Brandon Boyd — So I think from that perspective, I’ve just been able to see that happen and to see people really take their faith seriously in that moment, rather than just like coming to a worship gathering, getting in their car and going home.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. That’s great. Any, you know, the talk to me a little bit more about the response time, the altar time. I would say this for sure is a “trends” may be the wrong word, but like we see more and more churches, you know, employing that, that tactic. What have you learned from just managing that as a normal part of your worship experience? What, what has been, and has that been an add in the last couple of years or has it always been there?Brandon Boyd — I think it’s I think it’s been an add, but it hasn’t been like a programmatic element… Rich Birch — Right. Brandon Boyd — …that we’ve said, we’ve got to have altar ministry. I think it’s just been a movement of the Lord. So last spring we had we had this moment where it was our last gathering of the morning was at 11:45. And then we had this altar ministry where people just stayed and prayed after the end. And I don’t even remember what Luke spoke on. That started at 1:00 basically, and didn’t wrap up till 6 p.m. that night.Rich Birch — Wow.Brandon Boyd — So we’re not manufacturing any of this.Rich Birch — No. Yeah, yeah.Brandon Boyd — I think it’s just the Lord. And I think it’s just being sensitive to what the Lord is doing. And I think it’s the courage of not only Luke, our pastor, but other people that fill the pulpit when Luke isn’t there, that says, hey, don’t leave this room.Brandon Boyd — Our worship pastor, Justin Melton, does a great job of this at the end of each gathering. Don’t leave this room before you’ve talked to somebody, if the Lord is prompting that. So I think from a programmatic standpoint, we just want to be open-handed and just provide opportunities for people either to come forward or go to the next step space to have a conversation. And so it’s just been really remarkable to watch. Brandon Boyd — Like at first, I was kind of like, what in the world is going on? These people are just getting out of their seats and coming down front. But that altar ministry is not only prevalent in our Sunday morning worship gatherings, it’s prevalent in our student gatherings, whether that’s Wednesday night for middle school or Sunday nights for high school, and Thursday nights for our young adults. So it’s just something that the Lord is kind of stirring in and through our church.Rich Birch — Yeah, I was visiting, maybe 18 months ago, I was visiting a church. It was, the year before it was the second fastest growing church in the country. And showed up, and there was nothing about the kind of my pre-experience with this church that would have led me to believe that like, oh, altar time was going to be a part of their experience. And but very similarly, at the end of the the service, it was very like nonchalant is is the wrong word, but it wasn’t it was not a programmatic. We are, you know people know what we’re talking about. Brandon Boyd — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — Like we’re not, we’re not trying to, we’re not doing anything to get people to respond. And I would say, I don’t know, two thirds of the room got up and came down or, you know, half the room, it was like a huge portion of the room got up and came down. And I remember talking to the lead guy the next thing, he’s a good friend of mine. And I was like, like trying to pick it apart and understand it from a process point of view. And he was like, Rich man, the fact that we don’t totally understand it is a part of what we think that God’s using, right? Which is is beautiful. So that’s, that’s great to hear. That’s cool. Rich Birch — Are you doing anything with your elders or staff team to train towards that? Because you want to make sure that, you know, the people that are receiving some of that, you know, are kind of thought about it ahead of time before they got down there. Is anything you’re doing on that front?Brandon Boyd — Yeah, we’ve had training conversations and just how to be receptive to what people are sharing and knowing that we’ve we’ve done that with our elders, with our deacons and our staff team and pastors. andRich Birch — Sure.Brandon Boyd — But some of that is obviously there’s there’s going to be greater needs that extend past a Sunday.Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — So what is the immediate conversation that we need to have? But then if it’s a counseling issue, how can we refer them to a counseling partner? Rich Birch — Right.Brandon Boyd — Are there things that we can handle internally? Part of it is like we’ve just had this rapid growth in our church where it’s like you would assume if you come to our church that we would have this ministry, this handoff, this handoff. So another thing that we’ve had to do this past year is kind of build those handoffs as we’ve experienced some of these altar ministry things.Rich Birch — Sure.Brandon Boyd — Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s cool. Well, it’s been a fantastic conversation. What kind of final words would you have or encouragement would you have to a leader who’s maybe experiencing, obviously what you’re experiencing is super unique across the country, but is maybe experiencing a season of growth that there’s, Hey, there’s, we’re experiencing more momentum. We’re seeing this across the country in a number of churches, but what would you, what would your kind of final words be to them as we wrap up today’s conversation?Brandon Boyd — I think for me, just the final thing that I’d like to say, Rich, is it’s easy to feel overwhelmed. Rich Birch — That’s good.Brandon Boyd — I’ve felt overwhelmed in this season, and it’s okay to acknowledge that. And so just to have that space with my lead pastor where I can go into him and just say, look, I’m overwhelmed. I’m going to be okay. But I just want you to know that I am overwhelmed. And then being able to be transparent with our elder board about that. I think that’s just ah a feeling of, as if you’re in a fast-growing church like this situation or other situations, where it’s okay just to acknowledge we’re humans. You don’t have to act like a superhuman, that everything is okay.Rich Birch — RightBrandon Boyd — But just to say, hey, I’m overwhelmed and it’s a season. And then being able to express that not only to your lead pastor, to your elders, but I’ve got friends outside of Orlando that are in pastoral ministry that understand what that feels like. So just creating that network of being able to say that. Because what my fear is that people can just get overwhelmed and can get burned out and can say like, I hate the church. I don’t want to be a pastor anymore. And I believe that the when the Lord calls you, he’s also going to equip you. And so at the same time, you just need to be able to voice that and just say like, I am overwhelmed. We are going to make it through it, but here’s some things that I need help on.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Brandon, I really appreciate you being on today and taking time out of your schedule, packed schedule, I’m sure, to help us today.Brandon Boyd — Yeah.Rich Birch — So I really appreciate that. If people want to connect with Quay, connect with you, kind of track with the story, where do we want to send them online?Brandon Boyd — Yeah, so you can go to our social media. That’s @quaychurch, Q-U-A-Y Church. Also, quaychurch.org. And then I’m on Instagram @bgboyd.Rich Birch — Nice. That’s great. Thanks so much for being here today.Brandon Boyd — Yep, my pleasure.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Dr. Allen Holmes, Senior Pastor of Definition Church. Allen has served at Definition for 25 years, leading it from a congregation of 30 people to one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. But in this conversation, we don't start with strategy—we start with the soul. Allen shares how a personal marriage crisis early in ministry exposed deep character issues and launched him on a decades-long journey of spiritual formation that has shaped both his leadership and his church. Is it possible that the greatest lid on your ministry isn't your strategy—but your inner life? Allen challenges leaders to rethink success, crisis, and longevity through the lens of character formation. Pressure reveals who you really are. // Leadership rarely collapses because of incompetence—it collapses because pressure exposes unaddressed character issues. Early in seminary and marriage, Allen's wife told him she didn't love him and didn't want to remain in ministry. The crisis shattered his sense of calling and identity. Allen—by God's grace—was able to ask: What in me has produced this? That shift from defensiveness to humility marked the beginning of deep transformation. From gifted producer to formed leader. // Allen explains that many leaders are rewarded for production, not formation. A gifted communicator can build a crowd while remaining insecure, defensive, and relationally immature. You can be a great producer and a poor leader. True leadership requires learning to lead yourself. For Allen, that meant confronting independence, insecurity, and relational blind spots—issues rooted in his upbringing that were sabotaging both marriage and ministry. Prioritizing presence over performance. // The turning point in Allen's growth was deceptively simple: he began prioritizing his relationship with Jesus. Guided by a mentor, he learned to read Scripture for formation rather than information and to cultivate rhythms of prayer, worship, and dependence on the Holy Spirit. Ministry leaders face an occupational hazard—handling Scripture transactionally for sermons while neglecting personal communion with Christ. For Allen, consistent morning surrender became the foundation for long-term sustainability. Marriage as spiritual formation. // Allen describes marriage as God's primary classroom for sanctification. Drawing from the biblical metaphor of Christ and the Church, he explains how learning to live in the presence of his wife taught him how to live in the presence of God. Simple daily rhythms—morning prayer, consistent check-ins, shared meals, evening walks, praying together—have sustained their relationship for decades. Rather than competing with ministry, his marriage strengthens it. What God forms privately shapes what leaders produce publicly. Culture flows from character. // Over 25 years, Allen's commitment to personal formation has shaped Definition Church's culture. Every staff member has a “rule of life” and an intentional growth plan. Personal development is written into job descriptions as the number-one responsibility. Staff are given monthly retreat days to spend extended time alone with Jesus. Spiritual practices are embedded into the life of the church. Allen believes you reproduce who and what you are—so the greatest contribution a leader can make is becoming more like Christ. The power of staying. // Allen notes that lasting impact often requires long tenure. His senior leadership team has served together for decades, building trust and shared formation. In a skeptical culture, credibility grows through consistency. But longevity without formation is dangerous. The process prepares leaders for the purpose; bypassing the process risks collapse. Like Joseph's journey from entitlement to anointing in the Old Testament, leaders must pass through refining seasons before they can steward influence well. To learn more about Definition Church, explore their resources, and connect with Allen, visit definition.church. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Today’s going to be a really good conversation. It’s one of those conversations that I think we all need to have, looked carefully at, think about ourselves, think about the teams we lead. I really do think it’s one of those make or break kind of conversations. And so you’ll be rewarded for tuning in today. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dr. Allen Holmes with us. He’s a senior pastor of a church called Definition Church. He’s been there since 2000, so a few years. They’re located in North Carolina and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. They have a residency program as well that’s called to train and develop next generation of mission-minded ministry leaders. And believing that generosity is a privilege, Definition Church also partners with a number of other ministries, churches, and organizations to really serve their community. Dr. Allen, so glad you’re here. Thanks for being here today.Allen Holmes — Wow. Well, I’m so excited to be here, Rich, and appreciate the invitation.Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be a fun conversation. Why don’t you kind of fill out the picture?Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — Tell us a little bit about Definition. Kind of tell us the story. Give us a sense of the church.Allen Holmes — Well, my wife and I, we grew up down in Wilmington, which is on the coast of North Carolina. In 2000, we were finishing seminary and looking for a church, really looking for a city where we could plant our life and stay in one place kind of forever. And we were in a small town. Our first church was in a small town of about 1500. And Greensboro was one of the cities we visited, and there was a church here that had lost their pastor. They only had about 30 people.Allen Holmes — And the truth is that was safe and kind of gave us a a lot of freedom to make mistakes and learn and grow as leaders and as a man and a woman, as a married couple, as parents, you know, all the things without mistakes, really the pressure of a big church and a lot of expectations. And that was perfect for us. And and we fell in love with the city and it’s been 25 years now. It’s hard to believe that. And and but we love it here. Greensboro’s home now and and Definition’s been great to us.Rich Birch — So good. Well, I want to take advantage of the fact that you’ve been at your location, at your church for a number of years. When you look back over two and a half decades of ministry, and you know you’ve seen a lot of churches in your community, and then just even wider you know across the country, that sort of thing. Where have you seen leadership fall apart in churches? We’ll start with the negative to start.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — When’s it break down most often? Why does, you know, why do the wheels come off? Where have you seen that happen?Allen Holmes — You know, I think generally it’s just anything that creates pressure. So I think we have a tendency to train and prepare as leaders when there’s no pressure.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then all of a sudden we find ourselves in a situation where there’s a tremendous amount of pressure. And in those moments, it’s not what we know that matters, but who we are. Rich Birch — So true.Allen Holmes — It kind of gets it gets exposed. And this happened for me the first time I was in seminary. It was my second semester. My wife, Tina, and I had just gotten married. So we were five months into marriage. I was living my dream. I mean, seminary for, you know, somebody who wants to be a pastor is like Disney World, right? I mean, I’m in class every day studying the Bible, surrounded by all these people that love Jesus. I’ve got this vision for changing the world. I mean, it was just wonderful.Allen Holmes — And in month five, towards the end of that second semester, I came home and and my wife wasn’t doing well. I didn’t realize, you know, how bad it was. But that day I came home and she said, I don’t love you. Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And I don’t want to be married. I will never be in the ministry. I'm going home.Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And it’s like, all of a sudden, my whole world just began to fall apart. You know, at that stage of life, the only thing that really mattered to me was ministry. You know I had this call, this sense of calling. And my marriage.Allen Holmes — I really I grew up in a broken home, really didn’t have any family. And my wife and actually her family were family to me.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And so in that moment, it felt like I was losing everything that mattered. Rich Birch — Wow. Allen Holmes — And I realized that despite all of my gifts and my zeal and my passion and my good intentions, beneath the surface, I had all of this on all of these unaddressed issues from my life story that were now coming to the surface and creating a mess in my marriage. And that crisis, that pressure exposed those things and created an opportunity for me to learn and grow. And by God’s grace, we dropped out of seminary, we moved back home. And I met Dr. Bennett, who became a mentor to me. He was a retired pastor.Allen Holmes — And I just started this journey of instead of being focused on just what I do and what I could produce, which is all I knew up until that moment, to really asking some deeper questions about who am I? And what’s driving all of this behavior and what’s creating this problem in my marriage? And how do I invite Christ to really do a deeper work in my heart and life and character? And and I’ve been on that journey now for almost 30 years.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredibly compelling. One of my mentors, he talks about how he burnt out early and he had kind of, you know, ended up on the side of the road and, you know, in a really bad spot in life. And he says, he looks back on that and says, wow, by by God’s grace, that happened. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — You know, and, and wow, that, you know, his whole, it changed the whole trajectory of you know his life and he made a whole bunch of changes. And he feels really, in a weird sort of way, thankful for for that, if even though you’re thankful, it feels like a weird emotion to have around such a crisis you know in you know in your life. Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — Now, so many leaders, we’re so focused on the mission. We’re so focused on leading others. We’re so focused on pushing forward. We miss this stuff. There's there are these things bubbling under the surface. And and we haven’t had the grace of a wife who would raise her hand and say, hey, this enough is enough. Why do you think that gap is so common in ministry? Why is this just like a thing we see all the time?Allen Holmes — Well, I think to your point, in ministry, just like not just in ministry, but any organizational leadership, you’re rewarded and celebrated for what you produce. And the truth is that’s all most people can see. I mean, when my marriage blew up, if you would have gone around and interviewed my friends, my family, Tina’s family, my professors, if you would have asked anybody about me, they would have said, Allen's a rising star. He loves God. I mean, he he’s doing all the stuff. He’s checking all the boxes. This guy’s going to really be somebody one day.Allen Holmes — But what you couldn’t see is that beneath the surface, I didn’t know who I was. And I was insecure. I was defensive. I was independent. I really didn’t know how to do relationships well. I was insensitive.Allen Holmes — I didn’t have like a bad, ugly heart. I mean, I loved and cared about people. I just had all of these unaddressed, unfinished issues in my life. But my giftedness would allow me to produce despite that.Allen Holmes — You know, I think sometimes people um wonder why are leaders great at leading, but, you know, they struggle to lead themselves. I’m not sure that’s really a real thing. What leaders are good at doing is they’re great at producing. They’re not great at leading if they're not great at leading themselves. In other words, I can be a great producer and a bad leader.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — I can be great on stage and draw a crowd and kind of be a slave-driving leader. And it might, from a numbers perspective and people that aren’t close, they look at it and think, wow, this is wildly successful. But the people on the inner circle know better, that the culture is unhealthy and and this person’s, you know, shallow or he’s a tyrant or whatever the, you know, whatever the case might be.Allen Holmes — There’s all kinds of ways to build a crowd in American culture today that have very little to do with Jesus. And we’ve seen that over and over and over again. So I think in order to be a great leader, you have to be able and willing to lead yourself.Rich Birch — So what did that process look like for you the kind of internal journey of trying to name what your wife had or or define maybe what your wife had named to really get clarity on that? Maybe unpack that step a little bit first before we get on to what changed. You know, how how did you, what did that look like? How, what kind of space did you have to create? What, what, did where did that, what did that part of the journey take you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, when I look back on all this, I’m, you know, I’m just so grateful for God’s grace because I didn’t even understand the process I was in. I mean, you know, I was just in it and trying to navigate it. But by God’s grace, I decided to ask the question, what in my character has produced this in my marriage. And what’s really shocking about that is all of my seminary buddies were saying, what is wrong with your wife? Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And I, by God’s grace, was saying, what’s wrong with me?I had enough humility to look at my wife and go, you know, I married this woman because she was so full of grace and kind and gentle, this beautiful soul, this beautiful person. So if she’s reacting this way, chances are she’s not the problem. You know, sometimes.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Allen Holmes — Something about our relationship is producing that. And actually, so what it was is, my wife grew up in this really great, healthy family, parent, two-parent home, siblings, people in her house all the time. Her mom cooked every night. I ate at their house five nights a week. I mean, it’s like their family became my family.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Well, I grew up with none of that. I grew up with a single mom, basically all by myself, raising myself. And those two worlds just collided. So when we went seminary, I was doing school full-time and working full-time, and she was working full-time. And I thought, well, that was normal. That’s what I’d been doing for years and years. I’d worked my way through college. I’d been and on my own since I was 18.Allen Holmes — And so that seemed normal. But for Tina, it’s like she went from living in this beautiful community to being all by herself at seminary, and I’m not even there. Rich Birch — Right, right. Wow.Allen Holmes — And she’s and so she was relationally just dying, and I didn’t know how to be sensitive to that. You know, I wanted to just say, you know, get over it. Life’s hard…Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — …which would not have worked. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Allen Holmes — You know But I just had enough grace to begin asking, God, what are you trying to do in my heart? And and like you were saying earlier about your buddy, the thing I would say today, if I would have married a woman strong enough to tolerate that moment, I would have been I would have never survived in ministry because I would have been a driven, legalistic, judgmental, demanding kind of pastor that that really, I think, used the Bible to beat people up.Allen Holmes — And I mean, instead of being a man who really actually experienced, I guess, an inner this inner, deeper work and can invite people into something that is deeply spiritual and transformational and life-giving, you know, I would have just been this ugly, difficult pastor to be with. And so I’m so grateful. I mean, that that really began this journey that just changed and has literally touched everything about my life and ministry and our marriage today. I mean, it’s amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah. So what, what changed? What, how did you change your, you know, approach to making decisions, to dealing with the pressure, dealing with the pace? You know, obviously we were kind of at the point in the journey where you took a pause and made some changes, but eventually, you know, you ended up back on that path and back into ministry and have been leading and the ministry has been flourishing. So what were some of the, the kind of shifts that you made that were that, in hindsight seemed like that was, those were keystone decisions.Allen Holmes — Well, this sounds so silly to even say it, especially to Christian leaders, but I had to prioritize my relationship with Jesus.Rich Birch — Right, right.Allen Holmes — Well, there’s a good idea.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, exactly. Write that down. What did he say? No but that’s true, though. Lean in on that because you know that there are…Allen Holmes — Yes.Rich Birch — Listen, we all know we go, we all go through seasons where that our relationship goes colder. Some of us, we, you know, we just, it’s been like years, decades since we feel like we’ve had a thriving relationship. So lean in on that.Allen Holmes — Well, you know, it’s interesting when I when we moved back to Wilmington and I started spending time with Dr. Bennett, he just he just pressed me on that all the time. Give your mornings to Jesus. Give your mornings to Jesus. And I just began learning how do I develop a meaningful time with Jesus every day? How do I read the Bible for formation instead of information.Rich Birch — That’s good.Allen Holmes — And how, you know, how do I worship for formation? How do I what is my relationship to the Holy Spirit and inviting him into those moments to help me see and to understand, to teach and to heal and to counsel me into healing, wholeness, growth, all those things.Allen Holmes — You know, how do I press into community? You know, I was so independent. And the truth is, I mean, 30 years later, I’m still working on this.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I was so trained to be independent and I liked being independent. I wasn’t unhappy independent… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …but independence allows you to hold on to your immaturity because nobody’s challenging it.Rich Birch — Nobody’s in your business.Allen Holmes — Nobody’s confronted. That’s right. And so I just began really developing that time with Jesus and just fell in love with spending time with Jesus. And again, that that changed everything. And again, as silly as that sounds, I’ve been in so many groups. It’s kind of shocking how often I’m with pastors and they just say, I just, I don’t have time to read my Bible.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I don’t have time to worship. I can’t give 15 or 20 minutes in the mornings to the Lord. And it’s like, if that if that’s true, then something is just so out of order about our life and ministry. And we’ve not learned to juggle all of that. And because we’re not handling that well, so many pastors, they don’t finish in ministry. Rich Birch —Right.Allen Holmes — Ministry chews them up and spits them out. And so we have to make that the priority. So important. So important.Rich Birch — Yeah, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you leaning in on that. And this is an area where it’s an occupational hazard in what we’ve picked to do…Allen Holmes — Oh, yeah. That’s right.Rich Birch — …because our our job is to produce that in other people. And so we have to handle the scripture in in a way, you know, it’s like a part of what we do to produce the content we produce or whatever that is. And it can become very transactional if we don’t watch. And so I really appreciate you leaning in on that.Allen Holmes — That’s exactly right.Rich Birch — What about on the married side? What advice would you give? Again, you’ve, you’ve are happily married today and you know, all these years later.Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s right.Rich Birch — And, what, what rhythms have you found that have worked well for you and your wife, for you to continue to lead and to lead, you know, at a high level. The reason why we’re talking is because you’re leading a fast-growing church.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — But, you know, you’re doing that and keeping your marriage. What are some of the rhythms that you, that you help coach other, maybe younger leaders to, to really instill on that side, to, to, to be, to be whole on that side?Allen Holmes — One of the things that was so helpful early on is recognizing that my marriage was God’s gift to me to learn, not just to grow and to mature as a man, but even to learn to walk with God.Allen Holmes — And one of the things you see in Scripture over and over and over again is the primary metaphor God uses to describe our relationship with Him as a husband and a wife, that we’re the bride of Christ.Allen Holmes — And what I found is that my marriage and my relationship with Jesus were running in parallel. So if I learned something with Tina, it strengthened my relationship with Jesus. And when I would learn something with Jesus, it would actually strengthen my relationship with Tina, that they were you know playing off of each other that way.Allen Holmes — And so as Tina and I started working on our marriage, I mean, it was it was as simple like even when I think about giving my mornings to God. When I wake up every day, the first thing I do is I roll over on my knees. I acknowledge Jesus, you are my king, king of my heart and life.Allen Holmes — I invite the Holy Spirit to fill me fresh for that day. And I probably pray there three to five minutes, and then I roll over on my back and put my hand on my sleeping wife. And I just take a minute and begin praying and and blessing my wife.Allen Holmes — And then I’ll get up and I’ll I’ll kind of have of usually a couple hours where I can just be in the Word, I can worship, I can be in so have silence and solitude and just allow God to minister to my soul. And then i don’t ever leave the house without giving my wife a kiss, telling her I love her, embracing her.Allen Holmes — During the day, I’m going to check in two or three times. How’s your day going? What’s going on with you? You know, if I’m driving somewhere or between meetings, you know, little quick touches. Rich Birch — That's good.Allen Holmes — When I get home, I’m going to walk in the house. The first thing I’m going do is I’m going to find Tina. We’re going to eat dinner together that night. At the end of the day, we’re going to maybe go on a walk that night. We may get in bed and just both be reading a book for a little bit. We might talk about our day or what’s going on with our kids or life.Allen Holmes — Before we go to bed, before we go to sleep, we’ll pray together. And again, I want to make sure that I’m affirming my love for… When I describe all of that to people and what I try to tell them is have a response. The Christian life is learning to live in the presence of God. And marriage is learning to live in the presence of your wife.Allen Holmes — And so I know throughout the day what’s going on in the heart of my wife and how to love and serve her well, even when I’m here at work. And as a Christian, I’ve got to learn how do I live in the presence of God and recognize he’s always with me. And I want to bring Jesus into every moment, every meeting, every decision. And versus I have devotional time and I leave God at home. And then I come to work and do my work.Allen Holmes — So that’s just one example. As I learned how to do that with Tina, I saw how to apply to my relationship with God and vice versa.Rich Birch — That's so good. Yeah, that’s so helpful. Let’s talk about how your internal life and your own growth and your own staying close to him, what impact has that had on the church, on your team, on the people you lead? How do you see those two, you know, working together?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. So part of it is you reproduce who and what you are. Rich Birch — True. Allen Holmes — So what we’re describing, and of course, I’ve got 25 years of this, and so that gives me a little bit of an advantage in that regard because this takes time to build. You know, it doesn’t happen overnight. But when this has been kind of the direction of your life for over 25 years, then it becomes the direction of the organization and the people that you lead. And so on our on our church staff and our church and the way we do ministry, the way our we you know our mission is all affected by what we’re talking about.Allen Holmes — And so our staff, that you know, they all have a rule of life. They all have a very intentional plan a plan for their spiritual and personal and leadership growth in their life. And and we work as a team to to facilitate that. In fact, in our job descriptions, their number one responsibility is their personal growth and development. And we tell them all the time, the greatest thing you can do for everyone in your life is to learn and grow as a leader. That’s the greatest contribution you can make. When you do that, you everybody comes up. you You bless everybody. So work harder on who you are than what you’re building.Allen Holmes — And so we just emphasize that. And and then we do little things like, you know, in our in our church culture, we once a month, they have a retreat day where they’re required to go and be alone with Jesus for a whole day. And they’re being paid to do it. Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — It’s their, you know, it’s part of their job. We emphasize a spiritual practice every month, and we’re doing that in all of our groups, and we model that as a staff. Like in January, our spiritual practice is fasting, and we’re about to begin you know a season of prayer and fasting like a lot of churches do in January. And so that’s integrated into everything that we’re doing as a church and to our staff. They’re encouraged to do that, and so we’re just constantly making sure that they’re learning and growing. And then that begins to shape the culture your church. It shapes your ability to actually make disciples in your church. I mean, at the end of the day, if on a scale of 1 to 10, as a follower of Christ, if I’m a five, I can only lead three and fours… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …and I can only attract twos.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then there’s nobody that I can help, right?Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yes.Allen Holmes — Because I’m already at the bottom.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.Allen Holmes — But if I can be an eight and lead sixes and sevens and attract four and fives, then we can reach down and help the two and threes get up, you know. So my what God is doing in me, and that’s true for everybody on our team, is the greatest contribution they can make, and it brings everybody up. And so that’s just really worked into our culture.Rich Birch — Think at like from a diagnostic point of view. A church calls you up and they feel stuck organizationally. They feel like, man, things are just, they’re not going well. When you take a call like that, is your reflex to go towards, well, where are things with the with the leadership team internally?Rich Birch — Or you know do we start organizationally? Hey, let’s fix a couple of things. Help us talk think Help us think through um how do you handle that kind of conversation? Or how does this conversation inform a conversation like that when it comes your way?Allen Holmes — That’s a great question. I mean, generally my response will be, I’ll tell people really, if you need organizational, just kind of practical, how do I do it information, I just give them some resources, you know, so I’ll send them, go to the Grow Conference. They’re probably the best in the world at it. Rich Birch — Yeah, they're so good.Allen Holmes — They can tell you how to do these different things. But then I want to come back to the thing I think we can help you with is really the soul of your organization, which is a reflection of what God’s doing in you. So let’s talk about who you are as a leader, the way you live your life, the way you lead your staff, the culture that you’re building and creating. Because ultimately, if you get all these systems, but you don’t have culture, culture trumps systems every single time.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And when you get the systems and the culture right, you begin, everybody’s attracted to that. In fact, I think maybe one of the big problems in Western culture, and this is hard to admit, but I think the church has to admit this, is that people, people are not going to church. Church attendance is on decline, but it’s not because people don’t want God. They’re just not convinced they can find him at church.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so true. Yeah.Allen Holmes — I mean, they’re they’re spiritually hungry, but the cultures of our church, people come into that culture and what they kind of intuitively know is that this doesn’t feel healthy or spiritual. So you can create all the systems you want and send out flyers and do all kinds of things. But if people show up at your church and what they intuitively know is that this isn’t healthy and spiritual, you can’t grow your church. So you have to begin there.Allen Holmes —It’s also true if it is healthy and spiritual, even if your systems are a little suspect, people will tolerate a lot of a lot of that because they’re so spiritually hungry. And I think that’s more true than ever before.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very true. Yeah. Well, yeah, my good friend, Carey Nieuwhof, he says like, man, it would be so sad if people came to our churches and all they found was us, right? You know, at the end of the day, right? Like we were trying to point them to Jesus and as as kind of elementary as it sounds, but it’s just so true.Rich Birch — If there isn’t something happening there that’s bigger than just what they can get anywhere else, why would they come to us? Why would they engage in our churches? Yeah, that’s that’s…Allen Holmes — You know, we just came through Christmas, and and one of the things that I think Protestants miss is is when we think about Christmas, we think about Emmanuel, God with us. We think about the incarnation, God became flesh, and we think that’s something that happened 2,000 years ago. And the truth is, that’s supposed to be true of the church today. We are the body of Christ.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — God in us. And when that’s true, people, when they show up at our churches or show up at our dinner table, they should experience Jesus when they’re with us because we’re becoming more and more like him.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, it’s good.Allen Holmes — And then our life gives validity to our message.Rich Birch — Well, one of the things I’m working on a book for for churches about breaking the 2,000 barrier. And one of the interesting stats that we’ve bumped into is that oftentimes the, when a church breaks the 2,000 barrier, the senior leader and often the senior leadership team have been there for going on two decades, 18 years, 19 years, 22 years. Like it’s just a really common pattern you see.Rich Birch — Now that’s not the perception. Our perception is like, oh, there’s like the just add water mega fast church that just explodes and it all happens. But that actually isn’t the normative pattern. the Normative pattern is it’s it takes a long time. You’ve been at your church for 25 years. Talk us through how longevity, how does that tie into this conversation? How does it tie into the impact you’re seeing, you know, at Definition? Talk us through that.Allen Holmes — Yeah. You know, it’s interesting when I, one of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon-Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis, in these pressure moments to, you know, expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world.Allen Holmes — And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It’s a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor. That’s how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn’t done anything else. But they let me be a pastor because I can preach.Allen Holmes — And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice.Allen Holmes — In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. And that’s what pastors do a lot of times. The reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season, and then all of a sudden there’s a crisis that exposes some things, and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill, rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a transformative, redemptive leader. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — So I think one of the things that’s been so true for us is we’ve just tried to say to people, when there’s a crisis, don’t panic, don’t run away, see it as an opportunity.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis. Instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart, and God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true.Allen Holmes — And so we’ve tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don’t run away and don’t hide.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Let’s run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing, God works redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future. And because that’s been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He’s actually here two Sundays longer than I’ve been here. Rich Birch — Love it.Allen Holmes — Eric’s been here 24 years. Jonathan’s been here 19 years. Steve’s been Chelsea’s been here almost this year will be 14 years. Steve’s been here 10 years. I mean, so they’ve just been here a long, long, long time, and that but that’s why, is that they’ve seen these moments and we’ve helped them to find God in it so that actually works for us instead of against us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s great. I love that. You know, I think if more churches, if more leaders had the mindset, even as we led our people that like, hey, if they come to us and it feels like there’s a crisis brewing here, I do feel like our culture is so bent towards like, it’s not just them leaving, it’s us leaving them. It’s like, okay, time’s up, you’re done, like move on. We would never say it that way because we’re better Christians and we know, but but that’s the vibe we give people.Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — And And I do think it’s been interesting as we’ve been looking really from a church growth point of view, this is a really sticky trend that we see that it’s like you, the key leaders have to be here for a long time. And it makes sense on lots of levels. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — This level, it makes sense. It makes sense on just like community influence. Like you you have to be around for a long time. People are super suspicious of the church and they’re not You know, they don’t come like that maybe 30 years ago, people trusted the church. Well, that’s just not true anymore. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — And so when you’re around for a long time that, you know, that makes a difference. And it’s hard to, it’s not like a really pithy bullet point because it’s like, well, just stick around. But it is, it’s critically important to the, you know, to the overall mix.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, that make that reminds me of a couple of things. One, one of the, think, things we have to be careful about today is I think we are doing such a good job of planting churches. We’re all for church planting. We just help the church in our city plant. We’re about to launch somebody out next year to plant under the church. I mean, that’s a fantastic thing, but we’ve gotten so good at it.Allen Holmes — If you’re a 30-year-old and you plant a church and you start with 500 on day one, it could be detrimental to your spiritual journey. And we just have to kind of recognize that.Rich Birch — Talk more about that. Why would that be?Allen Holmes — Well, like when I think about myself, when I came to Definition, we had about 30 people, and we did not average 100 for an entire year until my seventh year here.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — Now, during those seven years, I thought it was the greatest church in America. I mean, we were having a good time, and we were basically a college ministry more than a church back then. When I came, we had an older congregation, but my first Sunday, 15 college students showed up.Rich Birch — Okay.Allen Holmes — And, of course, I was only 26, and so I naturally gravitated towards them. We kind of became this college ministry, and it wasn’t until several years later that they were old enough to get married and start having babies that we actually became a real church. And, uh, but during that time, the truth is God, I just believe God was in that because I was still so young and inexperienced and immature as a man and leader that the last thing I needed was any more success.Allen Holmes — It would have really, success can really blind you to your areas of, you know, where you need really need to grow. In fact, one of the things that you see in several places in Scripture, and one of the things that we tell our church all that time, that the Christian life is a lifelong, transformational journey with Christ. Rich Birch — Yep.Allen Holmes — And you see this in several places in Scripture. Let me give you a couple examples. You think about Joseph. I don’t if you’ve ever thought about this story, but I was preaching on it a couple of years ago, and I realized in this story, there are three times that Joseph has a coat. His first coat as a child is a coat of entitlement, and it needs to be ripped off.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — His next coat was given by Pharaoh. It’s a coat of self-sufficiency. It needs to be ripped off, and Potiphar’s wife took it off. And then third, there’s a coat of anointing where he’s come through this crucible. He’s come through these seasons of pain and struggle and wrestling and and suffering that has produced this character. And now God can elevate him and give him almost unlimited power and authority without the threat of him abusing it.Allen Holmes — Well, without that process, God could never. If God puts any man in that position without that process, it destroys you. I mean, you you’re not prepared. You can’t handle that. You know, tell people all the time that one of the reasons God doesn’t just tell us our future, you know, people are always wanting to know, you know, what’s God going to do?Allen Holmes — And the truth is, if God told us what we were going to be doing in 10 years, we’d try to go there tomorrow. And the process prepares us for our purpose. You cannot bypass the process… Rich Birch — That’s good. Allen Holmes — …and still fulfill your purpose.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — And so God works in that that challenge. I think about Psalm 23, and I think Psalm 23 describes three stages. First stage is that I’m this child. I’m very young and immature in my faith. And then I become this warrior. And then I eventually become friend. But I have to go through the valley of the shadow of death to get up that mountain in order to be a friend of God. Allen Holmes — And there’s no way to bypass that. it’s seeing you You see this over and over and over again in scripture. And it’s just part of our sanctification. It’s the way God works in our lives.Rich Birch — It’s so good.Allen Holmes — Now, one of the things that sometimes somebody might hear all this and they go, well, I know so-and-so. I’ll give you a great example, classic example of this. Chris Hodges is one of the most respected pastors in America.Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.Allen Holmes — And he he has pastored one of the fastest growing churches in in America. But there is a reason he has been so fruitful. And the reason is before he ever became a pastor, he didn’t start that church until he was 40.Allen Holmes — And before becoming that pastor, he’d served under two of the best pastors and two of the strongest churches in America. So he was so much more mature than the average church planter when he started. And I’m 53, I don’t think I’m where Chris was at 40 when he started that church.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — So that was a big advantage in why they’ve been able to be so consistently fruitful for such a long period of time. And we just have to recognize that. And again, that’s why it’s so important that we’re focused on what God is doing in us… Rich Birch — So good. Allen Holmes — …because over time, that’s what produces the best results. It’s just a mature man or woman of God.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Love it. Well, Allen, thank you so much for today’s conversation. This has been a great, it’s been really rich conversation. There’s a lot more we could we could talk about, but I really appreciate you giving us the time today. As we wrap up today’s episode, what any kind of final words you’d give to a leader, as they’re thinking about reflecting on this kind of inner life, leading themselves, you know, trying to align who they are outside with who they are inside. Help us Help us with the kind of final word as we kind of wrap up today’s call.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, I was reading a book recently, and and this quote, I’ve just been meditating on it the last couple of weeks, and it the quote is, God loves us as we are, not as we should be, for none of us are as we should be.Rich Birch — It’s good. Oh wow that's good.Allen Holmes — And I say that just to say I think so many pastors are trying so hard like the older brother in the prodigal story. They’re trying so hard to work for God and to prove something. And I just think we got to begin with falling in love with him and trust he’s better at producing than we are. And if we just fall in love with Jesus and allow him to make us more like that father, his kids will come running home.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — because they’re looking for fathers. They’re they’re looking for that place of grace and life and hope. And so that characterizes who we are in our soul. And people are just so attracted to that. So I would just say to all the pastors and leaders listening, God is crazy about you. You can’t do anything about that. You don’t have to earn it and none of us deserve it. And if we can learn to really receive that and fall in love with Jesus again, it just changes everything.Rich Birch — So good. Well, sir, I appreciate you being on today’s episode. If people want, if we want to send people online somewhere to track with you or with definition, where do we want to send them so they they could connect with you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, they can just Google Definition Church. And I do have a website. There’s not much on it yet. There’s probably not anything there that’s going to help them. But I need to do a better job of developing some content and getting it out there. But the best place to look would be just to go to our website. There are some resources there for churches.Rich Birch — That’s great.Allen Holmes — And of course, you know, we’d love to hear from them. And we really appreciate you just letting us, inviting us to be on the show today and to get to encourage leaders is such a such a privilege.Rich Birch — No, I appreciate you. I just want to honor you. You know, publicly. We reach out to churches like this, frankly, because you end up on the fastest growing church list. And we’re like, hey, what’s God using? And I love where this conversation went today. I think super helpful for people. So thanks so much, Allen. Appreciate being on today.Allen Holmes — Thanks, Rich. Have a great day.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Lou Pizzichillo, Lead Pastor of Community Church on Long Island. Community Church launched in January 2020—just ten weeks before the world shut down—then relaunched after 52 weeks online. Now averaging around 1,200 people across Thursday and Sunday services, Community is known as “a church for people who don't go to church.” In a region where skepticism toward organized religion runs deep, Lou and his team are building trust by creating space for honest questions, lived-out faith, and tangible community impact. Is your church serving in a skeptical environment? Are you trying to reach people who already think they know—and don't like—what church is about? Lou shares practical wisdom on posture, transparency, and earning trust one decision at a time. Starting where people really are. // On Long Island, while some residents may identify culturally with faith traditions, most see church as judgmental, hypocritical, or irrelevant to everyday life. Lou quickly realized that the biggest obstacle wasn't apathy—it was reputation. Rather than fighting skepticism, Community Church chose to acknowledge it. The church repeatedly communicates three cultural values: You can belong before you believe. You have permission to be in progress. And there's no pretending. These aren't slogans—they shape how the church operates. Permission to be in progress. // One of the most resonant phrases at Community is “permission to be in progress.” Many people assume that following Jesus requires instant agreement with every doctrine and behavior expectation. Instead, Community encourages people to wrestle honestly with the claims of Christ first. Secondary issues and sanctification come later. This posture doesn't mean watering down truth—it means sequencing it wisely. By focusing on who Jesus says he is, rather than debating every peripheral topic, the church keeps the main thing central. No pretending—and real transparency. // Transparency builds credibility in skeptical contexts. Stories of real life—parenting mistakes, marriage tensions, leadership missteps—often resonate more than polished success stories. At the same time, Lou draws a boundary between “scars and wounds.” He shares what he has processed, not what he is still unraveling. This authenticity signals that faith isn't about perfection but transformation. For many in the congregation, seeing a pastor admit imperfection dismantles years of distrust toward church leaders. Becoming an asset to the community. // Community Church doesn't just talk about loving Babylon—it demonstrates it. Early on, Lou realized trust would not come through marketing but through partnership. Before launch, the church created “12 Days of Christmas,” giving away gifts purchased from local businesses. In year one, stores hesitated to participate; by year seven, businesses were reaching out to collaborate. What began as skepticism has shifted to partnership because trust was earned gradually. Serving instead of competing. // A defining moment came during the annual Argyle Fair, a 30,000-person event held across the street from the church—on a Sunday. Rather than fight the inconvenience, Community canceled services and mobilized volunteers to serve the fair, providing parking and manpower. When the event was rescheduled due to rain, the church canceled services a second week to honor its commitment. Lou describes this as a defining cultural moment: demonstrating that service isn't convenient—it's convictional. Earning trust through inconvenience. // Lou recounts being called to the mayor's office days after launch to address parking concerns. Instead of pushing back, the church chose to rent additional parking space—even when legally unnecessary—to honor neighbors' concerns. In another instance, Community canceled a planned Christmas light show after Village neighbors expressed concern about traffic. Though disappointing internally, the decision earned significant community goodwill. Lou believes canceling the event built more trust than hosting it would have. Posture over persecution. // Lou cautions leaders against defaulting to a persecution narrative when facing resistance. Most pushback, he says, comes from practical concerns—not hostility toward Jesus. By listening humbly and responding thoughtfully, churches can win trust among the large percentage of community members who are neither strongly for nor against them. To learn more about Community Church, visit communitychurch.net or follow @communitychurch.li on social media. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they're reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you've been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, thanks so much for listening in, tuning in into today’s episode. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. We’re talking with a leader leading a prevailing church in frankly a part of the country that is not known for tons of prevailing churches. And so it’s an opportunity for all of us to lean in and to learn.Rich Birch — Super excited to have Lou Pizzichillo with us from Community Church. They’re in Babylon, New York on Long Island. They’re known as a church for people who don’t go to church. They’re big on being real, bringing real questions, struggles, hangups, doubts, disappointments, and failures. Lou, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here today.Lou Pizzichillo — Thanks so much. Yeah, it’s a privilege to be here.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s an honor that you would take some time to be with us today. Why don’t you kind of tell us a bit of the Community story, kind of give us a flavor of the church, help us kind of imagine if we were to arrive this weekend, what what would we experience?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So we have an interesting history. We launched in January of 2020. And so we were open for 10 weeks.Rich Birch — Great time.Lou Pizzichillo — I know it was perfect. And then we closed down for 52 weeks, and we relaunched. But because of that, what’s been really cool is, you know, when you’re launching a church, the launch team is a big deal. And to launch twice, we’ve had really like two two launch teams. And so team culture has always been a real big part of our church.Lou Pizzichillo — But yeah, we like to say that we’re a church for people who don’t go to church. and So we try to keep things pretty casual. We try not to assume that there’s any interest or experience with the people who are showing up on a Sunday. And yeah.Rich Birch — Nice. Give us a sense of, so like size and like your, you know, the ministry style, that sort of thing. Like what would you help us kind of place what the, what the church is like if I was to arrive, arrive on a weekend?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, we’re a pretty contemporary attractional church. We’ve got services on Thursday night and on Sunday morning. So we say the weekend starts on Thursday. Rich Birch — Love it. Lou Pizzichillo — We call Thursday night thurch, which is… Rich Birch — Oh, that’s funny. Thurch. Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, it was a joke at first, but then it kind of like, I don’t know, just kind of gained a life of its own.Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — So yeah, so the church over the course of the weekend, right now we’re at about 1,200. And it’s exciting. There are a lot of new people. And things are constantly change changing. Change is that really the only constant for us.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good. Well, you’re on Long Island, and I can say as somebody who I ministered for years in New Jersey, I’m from Canada, I I get that people don’t wake up on Long Island on Sunday morning and think, hey, I should go to church today. Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — You’re serving a community that is is more unchurched than other parts of the country, which is a challenge for planting. So help us understand, you know, help us just kind of get into the mindset or the um perspective of people who are outside of the church. What do they view on, you know, Christianity? Tell us, give us a sense of of kind of what you’ve learned, you know, planting in that kind of context.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So one thing that was really helpful right off the bat was somebody mentioned to me, they were like, you know, I’m not a gym person. And so when a new gym opens up in town, I don’t even really notice it.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And they’re like, I think it’s the same thing for church people.Rich Birch — Right. Lou Pizzichillo — It’s like, if you’re not a church person, then you don’t really notice when churches are doing things. And so that’s like, really, it’s a big reason why we’re so vocal about saying it we’re a church for people who don’t go to church, you know?Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — Um, and yeah, from there, honestly, we found that the biggest obstacle with people here is the existing reputation of church, of what church is like and what church people are like.Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — This church is seen as very judgmental, hypocritical, fake, exclusive, impractical, you know, it’s something you just do to kind of check the boxes and then you go on with your life. I’ve spoken to even a lot of, um, like devout Catholics here who have, have said like, they don’t, they do their church thing because, because it’s what they think that they’re supposed to do, but they’re, what they are doing in church does not translate to everyday life.Lou Pizzichillo — And so church is seen as kind of an impractical thing. And, that’s kind of the starting point for a lot of people who we’re trying to connect with.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’ve heard it said in other contexts, it’s like, not that people don’t know the church. It’s like, it’s what they know that they don’t like.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — It’s like, they have a sense of, you know, that that reputation. Are there any, maybe even stories or engagement you know conversations or engagements you’ve had with folks that have kind of brought that reputation to the fore. That obviously has led you to say, hey, we’re going position ourselves as a church where people don’t go into churches. Was there something that kind of influenced that as you were having, you know, even in these early years as you’ve been kind of get the ball rolling?Lou Pizzichillo — A big part of it honestly is a lot of my extended family. Like they’re, most of them are not church people. You know, they have a lot of respect for God. Like most people on Long Island, uh, especially, you know, most kind of nominal Catholics, like they would say they’re Italian or Irish. They say, oh, of course, Jesus is my savior. You know, like they, they know the right things to say, but in terms of what it actually means on a regular basis, it’s like kind of a totally different thing. So, so yeah, I mean, that’s kind of, kind of where we’re starting.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, people have criticisms about the church and they have criticisms of of their experience with the church. How do you discern between criticisms that maybe you either need to be challenged, like, hey, that’s actually just not true, or like, oh, that’s a critique that is actually fair, and we’re going to try to steer in a different direction, ah you know, than that. Help us think about those, you know, when we think about skepticism towards the church.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, I think, honestly, the best thing for us has just been to have a posture of listening.Rich Birch — That’s good.Lou Pizzichillo — Because even even if their claims aren’t valid, a lot of their experiences are. And so, you know, they’re like, there’s somebody who’s been going to the church for a while now, and somebody that was very close to them has like a pretty intense story of church hurt, like real damage. And so to know that he’s walking in with all of this baggage and that there are a lot of other people walking in with that baggage that don’t let you know that they have that baggage… Rich Birch — Right. Lou Pizzichillo — …just kind of giving them the space to, to be hurt and for it to be real. That’s been huge for us just having that kind of posture of humility. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So that obviously has led to the way you’ve developed either the way you talk about ministry or the values that are underlining, you know, the ministry.Rich Birch — What has been important for helping communicate or articulate to people like, hey, this is a place that you can show up, you know, before you, you know, you’ve kind of bought it all. It’s like, Hey, you there’s a place to explore that sort of thing. Help us think through how do you communicate and then how do those, whether they’re phrases or yeah that sort of thing, how does that translate then into the values of how you actually operate?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So big thing is for us, it’s training the team, like getting those values into the team and helping them to understand what that looks like in a concrete way. So we say, like a lot of churches say, you can belong before you believe. And the the illustration I give almost every single time, I’m like, if somebody walks in with a church, with a shirt that says, I hate God, we are glad that person is here, right? Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — Like we’re not assuming that they are walking in with interest or experience. And they might have a story that’s a lot more complicated than we know. So um so yes, we try to celebrate that.Lou Pizzichillo — When somebody walks in and they’re very open about their beliefs and their views not lining up with us, that’s something that we celebrate, right? Like because these are the people that we want here.Lou Pizzichillo — The other value that’s been really helpful for us is to say that people have permission to be in progress. And that has to do with their actions, the choices that they make, but also the things that they believe. And so you can be on board with some of our beliefs and not be on board with all of our beliefs. And we’re okay with that, right?Lou Pizzichillo — Like rather than just saying, okay, I accept all of it at one time. And now I completely agree that everything in the Bible is true. And, you know, I endorse it. Like we just kind of give people space to say, okay, like let’s maybe let’s start with the claims of Jesus, like right to this guy really rise from the dead. And now let’s look at what he says about things like the Old Testament, you know?Lou Pizzichillo — And so that’s that’s been a huge thing. We go back to that over and over and over again. It started as kind of like a main point in a sermon where I was like, you’ve got permission to be in progress. And so many people repeated it back to me that I was like, okay, this needs to be woven into our culture because it needs to be articulated…Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — …or people just assume, okay, if I’m going to say I believe, I got to say I believe it all. And there’s no room for disagreement.Lou Pizzichillo — And then from there, we say like, you got you can belong before you believe, you got permission to be in progress. And if both of those things are actually true for us as a church, then we can also say like our third value is no pretending.Lou Pizzichillo — Like you don’t have to pretend to be on board with certain things if you’re not there yet. And I think if we create an environment where people can be real and dialogue and be open about the things that they’re, you know, that they disagree with, I think that’s where there’s real hope for ultimately ending in a place of alignment.Rich Birch — Yeah, permission to be in progress to me feels very like a very Jesus value It feels like, oh, that to me, that’s like when I read the New Testament, that feels like the way he oriented himself to the people around him, right? There were clearly people that were like the rich young ruler came to him and was like, you know, asked a pointed question. Jesus gave a clear answer, and he didn’t, you know, Jesus didn’t, even though he said harsh words to or clear words, I would say, all was it always done in an environment of trying to say, hey, we I want you to be a part of this conversation. I’m really trying to be on the same side of the table. How do I bring you along?Rich Birch — Can you, like, let’s double click on permission to be in progress. Talk us through what that looks like. Because I think, I think so many churches draw very strong lines on like, you got to believe these 15 things to be a part here. Even if we wouldn’t explicitly set that say that, it’s like implicit in our cultures.Rich Birch — How does your culture look different when you say, hey, you’ve got permission to be in progress? What would be some of the things that might stand out to us as like, that’s a little bit different than how maybe some other churches handle this?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So we have like we have values, but then we also just have sayings, right? Like it it is too hard for me to define what the most important values are. Like I get too obsessed with the wording and how we’re going to phrase things. And so in our our conference room, we have a big whiteboard and we write down little sayings. We actually write them in permanent marker on the whiteboard, which is wasteful, but at least we have something to reference.Lou Pizzichillo — So when somebody says something and we’re like, hey, that’s a culture thing, it gets written on the board. One of the things that came up that’s really helped us with this idea of permission to be in progress is that the goal is to get people to Jesus and everything else is secondary. Everything else comes after that.Rich Birch — That's good. Yep, that’s good.Lou Pizzichillo — And so I’m not going to like get into it with someone over a secondary issue or really something that’s an issue of sanctification, when we believe sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit, right? Maybe your view on that will change after you understand who Jesus is and begin to follow him.Lou Pizzichillo — And so in a lot of ways, I feel like when we when we get too into the issues, we’re putting the cart before the horse, right? Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — And so we’re trying to bring people to Jesus and show him show them what he’s like. And ah that that has been clarifying when it comes to permission to be in progress.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And I think in heavily church context, when we kind of assume, oh, basically everyone here has some level of faith, those secondary issues can become like a really big deal. It’s like we spend a lot of time talking about those things.Rich Birch — But when the majority of people we’re interacting with you know, they haven’t, they haven’t really, really wrestled with what they think about Jesus and the difference he can make in this life. And we got to keep that, that really clear. Rich Birch — So no pretending is an interesting value as a communicator. How do you live that out in the way you show transparency? There’s this interesting thing years ago, I had one of the ah preacher that I love or communicator. I just think the world of, you know, he talked about how there’s this tension when we’re, communicating that, you know, we’re we’re trying to be transparent, but up into a point and how, where is that point? And how do we do that in a way that’s not, that brings people along? So ah what what does that look like for you even as a as ah as a leader to say, hey, it’s not my job to pretend. I’m going to just be honest and transparent, authentic to where we are? Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. Well, I mean, I can definitely say that every time I tell a story that has me screwing up, it is it is the thing that people come to tell me about. Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — Like, oh, thank you so much for telling me about you know the way you spoke to your kids… Rich Birch — Yes. Lou Pizzichillo — …or the thing that you said to your wife. Or it is just by far the thing that people love to hear. And that’s been encouraging. Now, I have had people like throw it back at me and that that comes with the territory. But I think that the stories of how that’s been helpful for people um like dramatically outweigh the people that are going to you know weaponize that stuff against you.Lou Pizzichillo — Something else I heard, um I think Brene Brown said this in one of her books. She said she doesn’t share things she hasn’t processed through yet.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And that for me is a really helpful thing. Like If I’m in the middle of something and just in the thick of it, it’s not the time for me to like bring that to the congregation. I think that could be really unhealthy for a lot of reasons.Lou Pizzichillo — So that’s, that’s kind of something that, and it doesn’t mean I can’t share something that just happened. You know sometimes I’ll explain an issue that just happened with my kids. That’s different than something I’m still processing and haven’t resolved yet.Rich Birch — Right. I think she said it’s the difference between scars and wounds, right? You can talk about your scars. That’s like, that’s an area that has, has had some level of healing to it versus an open wound, right? Like this is a part that’s, that’s still gaping.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah.Rich Birch — And, uh, you know, we don’t necessarily want to to share that. And that, you know, uh, that is a change. So I’m, you know, I’m of a certain age, been in this game a long time. And I remember when we first started, when I first started, that generation that came before me, people wanted like the superhuman religious leader. They wanted the like pastor to be, to have their stuff a hundred percent sewed up. Like, don’t tell me that you’re a real human. They didn’t want that.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, and that has completely reversed.Rich Birch — People are like, no no, like you said, we, we need to be transparent, open, authentic. People know that we’re not perfect. Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. Rich Birch — They know that we don’t have it all together. Lou Pizzichillo — Right.Rich Birch — And when we try to hide that, when we try to, in your language, pretend that actually is repulsive, it pushes them away. Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah.Rich Birch — One of the things that stood out to me just by reputation, kind of seeing your church is it appears that you guys have a conviction around getting out and serving the community, actually making a difference in the community. You know, it strikes me as very ah a very James-approach, faith in action – it’s it should make a difference in our community. What how do talk to me about what that looks like for Community. How does that, even your name, Community, you know, Church, reflects that. Talk talk to talk to me about what that looks like.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, so we’re pretty clear. Like we we tell people we want to be an asset to the community. We want people to be glad we’re here, whether they attend our church or not. And so that started really early. Actually, before we launched, we did this thing called the 12 Days of Christmas where, so our church is in a village, right? So there are a lot of local businesses around us. What we did is during the 12 days leading up to Christmas, we went to shops and we gave away gifts from those shops. There was a different shop every day for the 12 days leading up to Christmas. So we planned this out ahead of time. But we would post on social media and be like, Hey, today the, you know, the shop is Bunger surf shop. The first 25 people there are going to get beanies from Bunger surf shop.Lou Pizzichillo — And we paid for them. We sent the, Bunger agreed to hand them out. And people went to go get them. And what was, so it was a win, win, win, really. Like the people who participated got free beanies, the surf shop are like all the different shops in the village. They got people to go, they got traffic to their business, right?Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.Lou Pizzichillo — Because people went in then bought other stuff. And it helped us communicate that we we say we want something for you, not from you, right? We want to be an asset to the community. And so it helped us communicate that message. And the response to that has been great.Lou Pizzichillo — Now, what’s interesting, if this doesn’t tell you something about the church’s reputation, on year one, before we launched, it was very hard to get 12 shops to agree to do this with us. Like they were like, you’re a church? I’m sorry. No, we’re not doing it.Rich Birch — Forget it. Yeah.Lou Pizzichillo — Now it’s year seven. Right now we’re in the middle of our our seventh year and there are shops lining up to do it. There are shops reaching out to us, asking us to collaborate.Rich Birch — Wow.Lou Pizzichillo — They’re helping to pay for the stuff. So it’s actually in some ways getting a little bit cheaper.Rich Birch — Huh.Lou Pizzichillo — And it’s just cool. It’s shown like this posture of partnership with what’s going on… Rich Birch — Yes. Lou Pizzichillo — …rather than, okay, there are the shops and then there’s the church. Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — And yeah, we actually have a someone on staff now who first heard about the church on year one during the 12 days of Christmas. She started coming to the church. she eventually got baptized and now she’s on staff. And it’s just like, it has been so, so cool.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. That’s what a cool, you know, even just a cool tactic, kind of an expression of that. Is there other ways, other kind of activities like that, that you’re engaged with throughout the year that would could illustrate this idea of being for the community, being an asset to the community? What would be another example of that that that’s happened?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. So there is this fair that happens right across the street from the church. It’s called the Argyle Fair. It’s it’s around a lake. There are about 30,000 people that come to this fair. And the fair is on a Sunday during church.Lou Pizzichillo — The first year that we were here and had services during that Sunday, it was a mess. There were people you know like parking all over the place. It was hard to have services. Traffic was crazy. And we left church and my wife and I walked to the fair and just felt like something didn’t feel right. Like there’s some, here’s something everybody’s doing and we’re fighting against it.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — So we went to the people who ran the fair and we were like, is there any way we can help? Like, is there, what do you guys need? And right away she was like, we need volunteers and we need parking. And as a church, we are uniquely equipped with volunteers and parking. Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo —And so really it was there, like that almost right away, we were like, okay, next year, ah we’re going to be on board with what you’re doing.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Lou Pizzichillo — And so we decided to cancel services. And in the weeks leading up to that, we teach about the importance of serving the community. It’s kind of like the grand finale to whatever, you know…Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — …outreach series or message is being given.Rich Birch — Yeah.Lou Pizzichillo — And um yeah, so we teach on that. And then we’re like, hey, you know, two weeks from now, we’re not going to have services. Instead, we’re going to go out instead of staying in here talking about serving, we’re going to go out there and serve. And, you know, we’ve said like… Rich Birch — Love that. Lou Pizzichillo — …yeah, what’s what’s happening out there is not more spiritual than what’s happening in here. It’s a different way to express and grow in our faith. So we did that. And the response has just been unbelievable. Like the community has loved it. The the fair has had the help that they need. The people in our church have loved it. But this year we actually it got rained out on the first week. And so they postponed it to the next week.Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Lou Pizzichillo — And that made it tough for us because now we were like, okay, are we going to cancel church two weeks in a row? Rich Birch — Right. Lou Pizzichillo — And we had a meeting about it and like looked at our values, looked at what we were talking about. We were like, you know what, this is actually an opportunity for us to really double down and say, we’re not doing this out of convenience. We’re doing this because it’s a value. And so I called up the guy who was running the fair and he was like, I get it. If you can’t do it, I get it. And it felt, it was, it was amazing to be able to say on the phone, like, Hey, we’re with you, uh, no matter what. So, uh, so we did and it was, it was awesome.Rich Birch — That’s incredible. Like ah that, again, that what a vivid example, because I think there’s a lot of church leaders, if we’re honest, we’ve been engaged in the conversation that’s literally on the opposite side of that, where we’re like, man, how do we, these people, they’re, you know, they’re cramping our style or whatever. It’s like we naturally default towards that rather than to serve. Rich Birch — Take us back early in the discussions because I think a lot of us have not done a good job in building trust bridges in our communities. And you know trust isn’t built with just you know, one conversation. It takes time, right? It takes, like you said, those those first 12 days of Christmas, you couldn’t get anybody. And now here’s seven years later. We want we want to get to the seven years later part really quickly.Rich Birch — But ah those early conversations, how are you handling yourself, interacting with the like other people, you know, approaching them, having those conversations. What did you learn in the early dialogue that could help us if we’re trying to build, you know, deeper community trust in a place that just is so skeptical of that we’re coming with, just looking to take from our people.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. I mean, you have to be willing to be inconvenienced. I think that’s been a big part of it.Lou Pizzichillo — On week one, so we we launched literally on the first day and launch day was bigger than we thought it was going to be. And on that Monday, I was called to the mayor’s office, the mayor of the village.Lou Pizzichillo — And I was like, okay, thought I was going to go have a conversation. And when I got there, it was the it was him, it was the head of code enforcement and the fire chief all in a room waiting for me Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Lou Pizzichillo — And they had pictures of cars parked all over the street. And I I realized there, like, there was a real concern about what this church was going to be in the community.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so from there, we’ve just been looking for opportunities to earn trust. The neighbors have made it very clear that they don’t like cars parking on the street. And so we, we began paying for a lot so that we could take the cars off of the street. We don’t have to, they can legally park in the street, but we rent the lot. We told the owner of the property why we’re doing it. And he got on board with what we’re doing. We’re now in a place, kind of a long story, but we now don’t have to pay for that lot.Rich Birch — Wow.Lou Pizzichillo — We also, like the trust has been earned one decision at a time. We were going to do this big thing in the parking lot. We did a parking lot renovation that took the whole summer. After the summer, we were like, hey, in our new parking lot, let’s put on a Christmas show. We’ll run it throughout two weeks in December.Lou Pizzichillo — We had an animator who goes to the church. He like had this great idea for a show. He’s like, we’ll project it on the building. People will drive in. We’ll run it multiple times a night, do it for a few weeks throughout December. We were calling it Christmas in Lights.Lou Pizzichillo — So we put this whole plan together. He’s making the thing. We start advertising it and the village comes to us and they’re like, you’re in violation of the code. You can’t do this. And and they’re giving us all these reasons that I felt like didn’t really hold that much weight, you know.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — But in thinking about it, I do understand the inconvenience it would have been. We just had a major parking lot renovation. There were huge trucks making tons of noise for months. Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And now that’s finally over. And we’re going to ask the village to deal with the traffic of a show happening every single night, you know, for a few weeks in December.Rich Birch — Right Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so I went to the mayor and I was like, hey, ah it’s a new mayor at this point. But I just sat down with her and I was like, hey, listen, if you have concerns about this, I want you to feel the freedom to just come to me and say, this is a lot for the neighbors. Like, what do you think about pulling this in?Lou Pizzichillo —And it was cool. It was an opportunity for the two of us to kind of bond, like there was some trust earned there and we canceled the show. We decided not to do it. And I released a video explaining why we weren’t doing it.Rich Birch — Wow.Lou Pizzichillo — And the amazing thing is that I think canceling the show accomplished more than we would have accomplished if we actually did the show.Rich Birch — Interesting.Lou Pizzichillo — Like it earned, it was so well received when people found out that we weren’t going to do it. They were like, and even the people that attend the church, they were like, I want to be part of a church that supports their community like this.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so it went really well, and it was a lot less work, and so it was it was kind of a win all around. Rich Birch — What did the animators say? I feel but feel bad for that person who started doing that work. Did they understand. Obviously, they’re bummed or concerned.Lou Pizzichillo — He was bummed out, but he’s one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet, and so he he totally got it. And he’s on board with what we’re trying to do, and when he knew the reason why, he was totally, totally supportive of it.Rich Birch — Interesting. So where have you seen churches kind of get this wrong as we’ve tried to engage with the community? Maybe a common a pothole that we fall into or a way that we stub our toes, you know, a thing maybe you’ve you’ve you’ve seen that we just, we you know, kind of consistently make the same mistake.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. You know, one of my mentors told me a while ago, he was like, when you’re thinking about the church in the community, he’s like, there’s a small percentage of people that are for you. He said, there’s, there’s also a small percentage of people that are anti-church and they always will be, and you’re not going to change their minds.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And he’s like, but then there’s this large percentage that’s just kind of going to go one way or the other. And he’s like, that’s the percentage that you really have to be intentional about connecting with.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so I think, you know, it is very easy to tell the story like, hey, they don’t want us to do our Christmas show. This is persecution… Rich Birch — Yes. Lou Pizzichillo — …you know, and we got to fight and suffer for the name of Jesus. And ah we’ve just found that that’s not always the case. Rich Birch — Right. Lou Pizzichillo — You know, it’s people that don’t want to be inconvenienced and they may love church, but there’s there’s all this stuff going in the community. Maybe they maybe they have you know other reasons why. So i think I think it’s just the posture.Lou Pizzichillo — Like a lot of, most people, most people aren’t unreasonable. And I think if we give them the chance to really articulate what’s going on, I’ve been surprised at how understandable a lot of the feelings have been, a lot of the resistance to church comes from real stories, real experiences.Rich Birch — Right, right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so, yeah, I think it’s the you know the whole like persecution thing or suffering or that is real and people do really experience that. But a lot of times I think we’re a little too quick to say, oh, this is what that is when really it may not be.Rich Birch — Well, and it it’s, ah in some ways, it’s like a low form of, well, it’s a leadership shortcut for sure to like demonize, to like, oh, there, those people are come out to get us. You know, any leader that’s led before realizes, oh, that’s like a that’s a tool that actually works. People respond to that, but, but we don’t want to do that. Like that isn’t, these are the people we’re trying to love and care. These are people we’re trying to see point towards Jesus. They’re not our enemies.Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — They’re not, you know, they’re, they’re not, they might just not like parking, like you at the end of the day.Lou Pizzichillo — Right. Right.Rich Birch — And so let’s not, let’s not get over-revved, ah you know, on that. And unfortunately there are, I know, you know, way too many churches that have got themselves on the wrong side of this. And it’s very hard to backwards engineer out of that. Once you go down that road of like, we’re going to try to go negative with our community. That just isn’t, it’s just, it’s, it’s very difficult to to step back from that.Rich Birch — If you think about a church leader that’s listening in today and they’re, they’re saying, Hey, They’re thinking we want to do a better job being trusted more locally, trusted by local leaders, trusted by other you know businesses in town, that sort of thing. What would be a couple first steps you think they could take? A couple things where they could start to try to build that kind of trust with the community around them?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. You know, I think I’m a big believer in praying for those opportunities. And also just giving things a second look, you know. When you’re in a situation that may seem like a challenge or something that may seem like it’s getting in the way, to just stop and think, okay, is, is there an opportunity here to build trust with the community?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Lou Pizzichillo — Because we, and when we say the community, we’re not just talking about this nebulous, you know, idea of Babylon village. There are people there.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And if those people see this church as trustworthy, they may come here, you know, when their relationships are falling apart or when they’re looking for answers.Rich Birch — Yep.Lou Pizzichillo — Um, and so it’s really just been… We have great people here who have bought into what we’re doing, who have really helped us to see like, this is an opportunity to win with the community. And yeah, you gotta, you have to look outside the box and, and also be willing to, there, there are moments like with Church Has Left the Building—with the fair—and with the Christmas and light show, there are moments where they’ll see, okay, do you really care? Do you really care?Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — Like are how how much will you inconvenience yourself? And I mean, the payoff from that has just been huge, even though it’s been an inconvenience and our giving goes down that week and it throws off the series and we got to restructure the calendar.Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — It has gone, there’s there’s never been a time where we’ve regretted it.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good. And, you know, there’s no doubt one of the things I think we can in our our little world of kind of church leadership, I think we can forget often that people in the communities that we’re serving, they really don’t have any frame of reference for a church of 1,200 people. Like they that that isn’t people’s normal perception of what a church is. Like a church is 25 people or 50 people in a room somewhere super small.Rich Birch — And, and their perception can be, they just don’t, they just don’t have any idea. What is that? What’s that look like? And some of that can skew negative because it’s busy and blah, blah, blah, all those things. And so we’ve, we, we have to take it on ourselves when our church gets to the size that you’re at or larger to try to help them understand and see though this is like really positive for the community and actually point towards that.Lou Pizzichillo — Yes.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.Lou Pizzichillo — Yes. And, and like along those lines, ah it’s also perceived as a source of power, right? Like if, if there, if you have 1500 people that all believe the same thing and you’re trying to run a village or a community, there is this, this sense of like, okay, well, are they going to be for us or against us? Like, are all these people going to be anti-village?Rich Birch — Right.Lou Pizzichillo — And so there is like that, that instinct to kind of protect from this group of people that make, make things really hard for us. But over time, as they begin to see like all these people are, are behind us, they’re here to support us and they want to make this place better.Rich Birch — Yes.Lou Pizzichillo — It’s, it really is a beautiful thing. And we’re not there yet as a church, but we’re getting there. And, uh, we’ve just seen a lot of, lot of positive signs and, uh, Yeah, think it’s paid off.Rich Birch — So good, Lou. That’s, that’s great. Just as we wrap up today’s conversation, any kind of final words you’d have to, ah you know, to leaders that are listening in thinking about these issues today?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah. I mean, I think I would just say it’s worth it. It's it’s messy. It does make things difficult. It can be inconvenient. And when you have people who don’t go to church coming to church and you give them permission to be in progress, you get a lot of hairy situations. And we have a lot of conversations where we’re trying to figure out which way to go.Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.Lou Pizzichillo — But it’s in those conversations that we cant kind of stop and remind ourselves like, Hey, we’re, we’re glad that these people are here and we’re glad that these are the problems that we’re having. And, the end of the day, this is what we feel like it’s all about. So.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I just want to encourage you as you’re leading, you’re doing a great job and and it’s been fun to get a chance to get a little window into what’s going on at Community. Want to encourage you and your your team, just you’re doing the right thing. If people want to track with the church or with you online, where do we want to send them to connect with you guys?Lou Pizzichillo — Yeah, so communitychurch.net is our website. On Instagram, we’re communitychurchli, we’re @communitychurchli, and we try to keep that handle throughout all the platforms. So YouTube, same thing. But yeah, that’s it.Rich Birch — Great. Thanks for for being here today, Lou.Lou Pizzichillo — Thanks for having me, Rich. It’s an honor to be here, and I love what you guys are doing for the church.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Jeff Beachum and Curt Banter from Portable Church Industries (PCI), a company that has helped more than 4,000 churches launch, expand, and thrive in portable environments over the past 25+ years. PCI specializes in helping churches create high-quality worship, kids, and guest experiences in rented or temporary venues—without sacrificing excellence, volunteer health, or long-term strategy. Is your church growing and starting to feel the pressure of limited space? Are you wrestling with what comes next when your building is full but a permanent solution feels years away? Curt and Jeff share how portable solutions can help churches keep momentum, reach more people, and make wise long-term decisions—without rushing into costly permanent buildings too soon. Recognizing the capacity tipping point. // When churches reach 70–80% capacity, leaders begin to feel pressure everywhere—parking, kids' environments, hallways, volunteer fatigue, and seat availability. At that point, growth doesn't slow because of lack of vision; it slows because of physical constraints. Leaders often start “chasing capacity,” stacking services or squeezing rooms, but those solutions eventually hit a wall. The real question becomes how to keep momentum going without rushing into a long-term decision that may limit future flexibility. Why waiting too long can stall growth. // Waiting to see what happens with growth can quietly kill momentum. When guests can't find seats or families feel crowded, people stop inviting friends—even if the preaching and worship are strong. While overflow rooms may solve logistics, they rarely create the same invitational energy. Churches must respond to growth with courage, believing that God is at work and making room for what He's doing. Portable as a strategic bridge, not a shortcut. // One of the biggest misconceptions is that portability is a cheap or temporary compromise. In reality, portability often serves as a strategic incubation phase—a way to grow now while preparing for long-term solutions later. Portable environments allow churches to launch new locations in months instead of years, often at 3–7% of the cost of permanent construction. Why permanence shouldn't be your first move. // Permanent buildings come with long timelines, heavy capital costs, and irreversible decisions. By contrast, portable systems allow churches to test locations, leadership capacity, volunteer systems, and community engagement before committing to bricks and mortar. In many cases, churches reuse or retool their portable systems for future campuses, making portability a repeatable growth engine rather than a one-time solution. Designed for volunteers, not professionals. // PCI systems are designed around the reality that most churches rely on volunteers—not production experts. Systems are engineered so everything has a place, setup is repeatable, and volunteers of all ages can succeed. Portability often attracts a unique group of volunteers—people who may not serve in traditional roles but find purpose in setup, teardown, logistics, and behind-the-scenes leadership. Over time, these teams become deeply connected and highly committed. Experience and kids environments matter. // Portable doesn't mean second-rate. In fact, kids' environments are often more important than the worship space. Parents cannot fully engage in worship if they feel uneasy about where their children are. PCI's design process balances worship, kids, guest flow, safety, and branding to ensure the entire experience reflects the church's values—not just what happens on stage. Custom systems, not off-the-shelf kits. // PCI's consultative approach begins with listening. Each system is custom-designed based on the church's identity, volunteer capacity, budget, and long-term vision. There is no “stock solution.” From sound systems to kids check-in to trailer layouts, every detail is engineered to support the church's unique mission and growth trajectory. A first step for leaders. // For leaders feeling capacity pressure, start with a conversation—not a commitment. Learning what options exist now prepares churches to act decisively later. The goal is not to rush, but to be ready when growth demands action. Speak directly with Jeff Beachum and discover how Portable Church can help with your unique situation by scheduling a conversation at portablechurch.com/jeff. Learn more about Portable Church Industries and see samples of their work at portablechurch.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don't need more pressure—you need support. That's why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn't stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It's like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super glad that you’ve decided to tune in today and you are going to be rewarded for that. We’ve got a really important conversation, I know for many churches that are listening in, particularly if your church is growing and you’re thinking about the future and you see some constraints around you, we wanna help release some of those constraints today. Rich Birch — And I’ve asked good friends, Curt Banter and Jeff Beachum from Portable Church Industries to come and be on the on the call with us today, because they’ve got some stuff that I know can help so many of us. If you do not know Portable Church, they help churches thrive in portable venues. For more than 25 years, Portable Church has helped literally thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fill that fit each budget, vision, and venue. They really are amazing people. And I’m so glad to have you on the show today, Curt and Jeff. Welcome. So glad you’re here.Curt Banter — Great to be here.Jeffrey Beachum — Glad to be here.Rich Birch — Why don’t we start with Curt? Tell us the kind of portable church, you know, summary. You bump into someone and you they yeah they ask you where you work and you’re like, I’m CEO of Portable Church. What what is that?Curt Banter — Yes, yes. That’s a popular airport question. That is a very, what is that exactly? And I always…Rich Birch — Right. Is that on wheels or something? What is it like, you know.Curt Banter — Exactly. I always tell people like, well, we build portable systems to help churches function in kind of rented spaces is, you know, the deal. And it’s production, it’s kids, it’s lobby, it’s the whole thing. It’s it’s the experience on a Sunday morning in a rented venue.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. And Jeff, give us a sense of the scope of both the services and kind of solutions that PCI provides. Like when you say you help that, what does that, what does that mean? Is this just like a bunch of ideas or what what do you actually do?Jeffrey Beachum — So Portable Church provides absolutely everything that a church needs in order to do church the way they do at their home campus, except we don’t provide the pastor, and the people and the place. But, I mean, we do everything else from, like Curt said, production, everything you need to do children’s environments, everything you need to get people on the campus with wayfinding, greeting them, coffee, right down, if we don’t recommend it, but right down to the communion wafer and the baby diaper. We can do it all.Rich Birch — Nice. Right. Yeah, it’s incredible. Well, today we want to frame the conversation for churches that are listening in that are particularly growing and are thinking about the future and maybe are coming up against some capacity issues. Jeff, when a church starts to approach, say, let’s picture a church, maybe they’re approaching 70, 80% of their weekend capacity. What kind of questions do you hear those leaders wrestling with? What are they thinking about, as they’re thinking about, hmm, what do we do next?Jeffrey Beachum — Well, luckily I’ve run into some ah amazing executive leaders that carry the vision and the execution of a church. And those are usually the two primary people or positions. And there might be multiple people involved in it. But those are the two positions that really are looking in their crystal ball and trying to say, all right, based on The seats we’re filling, the parking lot the way it is, the corridors that are jammed, the children’s ministry, how high a pitch our our volunteers are screaming. We need to be thinking down the road about what are the solutions. And those those people typically, those good leaders are asking questions about, all right, what can we do onsite?Jeffrey Beachum — And eventually, if this keeps going, and we’d love the momentum to keep going, what are some off-site solutions? And so that’s what we like to help take leaders through is even if they don’t use it, the more they know, the better they’re going to be.Rich Birch — And what, when you think of the questions that they’re wrestling about kind of the onsite offsite question, what would be some of those things that, why would they be at that venture? Like what, what is it about, you know, these, this kind of threshold of 70, 80% that starts pushing them to be like, Ooh, maybe it’s like, what are the pain points that they start feeling that are like, okay, that we’ve got to start thinking about something, you know, different down the road.Jeffrey Beachum — Well, this we do this thing, I like to call it chasing capacity, because once a church opens its doors, and if they’re blessed by God and they’re doing all the things that they should be doing, they will forever be looking for that elusive extra seat so that people can hear the gospel. Rich Birch — Right.Jeffrey Beachum — Well, when they get into that position, um they they immediately begin to think, we only have so many seats. It’s a finite number and we’re growing. So how how do we get more? And on-site solutions might include stacking services, adding another third, fourth service. It could mean expanding the footprint of the whole building that you’re in. It could be moving from a smaller room to a bigger room. It could be a variety of solutions on-site to help all those situations. And and there’s a lot to consider when it comes to children’s space, worship space, getting people in and out between services and parking and all of those things.Jeffrey Beachum — Eventually, someone has to be looking at what the offsite locations might be. And and to be honest with you, that is a finite thing. There’s only you can find a green piece of grass and and build a brand new building, which takes a lot of money, a lot of time. There’s commercial properties that you can go into now and build them out, which is always fun and exciting and good good solutions. Mergers is popping up and then portability. Those really are the only four options that are out there for a church to consider going off-site for another site or to launch a new plant.Rich Birch — Cool. So Curt, from when we think about, again, this church, they’re, you know, they’re reaching 70, 80% capacity. They got full everywhere. Like and they look around and it’s like not and enough seats, not enough kids space, not enough parking. From a design and systems perspective, kind of the running side, what often do you think that we miss at that moment in a church life? Like questions we’re not asking or maybe things we misunderstand about that?Rich Birch — Because you guys see this all the time. These are the people you work with all day long. Curt Banter — Yeah. Rich Birch — What are the things that we maybe misunderstood?Curt Banter — Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of people are trying to, they don’t want to lose momentum. They don’t want to lose people. They they start, especially I think people kind of a knee jerk sometimes that it’s like, oh you know, people to come in the door. I can’t find a place to sit. They’re going to, you know, they’re to, people are going split.Curt Banter — And so they’re really nervous about that. So people will tend to do the things that are maybe more black and white and make choices that feel concrete. Like I could build a thing or I could add a service or I could do different things that will cost money and maybe not as much in terms of personnel. But I think sometimes the the tricky part is is that the strategy is really key because what you’re building now is going to lay the foundation for so many other steps down the road.Curt Banter — So it is important to really kind of step back for a minute and make some choices about you know what that means for your staff, what that means for long-term capital spending or whatever it may be before you kind of just leap into those decisions. And then you’re stuck with things that maybe don’t grow so well, or, um, are just bandaid solutions.Rich Birch — Yeah, trying to make the long term. That’s hard in the middle of the chaos of it to step back and say, hey, what what is the best decision here?Curt Banter — It is, it’s really hard.Rich Birch — Even though I’ve got, you know, I’ve got problems right now. What’s the best decision for us to make it this for this next step? Jeff, what happens if we’re in this again, thinking about the same kind of church, if we wait too long, if we, because I’ve actually seen this in churches where I think it’s like it’s like we don’t have faith that what’s happening now is going to continue. And we think, well, maybe maybe next fall, all these people won’t come back. Now, we would never say that. And then we wait and we hesitate for a year or two. What’s some of the risk there that we should be thinking about?Jeffrey Beachum — Well, it it is a scary thing to see God moving and and being amazed at what’s happening in front of you, and and really taking that and getting a gut gut feeling, the right gut feeling to say, God is doing something here and we just need to be able to provide ways for him to keep filling seats.Jeffrey Beachum — And so momentum is very, a tricky thing and you need to be able to keep the momentum going, keep people encouraged. And, and if you don’t, I’ll just share one story. Um, I was at a church. I’ll just tell you my church. I was at my church. I love my church. It’s a great church and got there at Easter time, got there early cause we knew better. And I, I’m old, so I went out to the bathroom and I came back in, and as I was coming back in the doors were closed and there was a sign there that struck me big time and it said: no more seats in the sanctuary. And it pointed to another place where they could go. Well, nobody wants to sit in the second space, no matter what it looks like, and that no more seats available. What if that was the day, you know?Jeffrey Beachum — And so momentum, you need to be able to keep it going. It’s tenuous and you can hit speed bumps with some of the things that you try to do, but you you really need to take courage in what God is doing and what the skill set that he’s provided for the executive leaders to make these decisions and say, we really believe that God is asking us to do this and make plans for that next thing, whether it’s the on-site solution or the off-site solution.Jeffrey Beachum — But if nobody is thinking about it and nobody is ready to make those decisions, that’s where you hit a wall and you stop growing. And in my mind, I think once you’ve let people know that that’s not important enough to keep seats open so that more people can come in, I think that has a negative twist to the momentum piece.Rich Birch — Oh, for sure. Yeah. And there’s, there’s, you know, people won’t invite if there’s not empty seats and there’s, you know, there’s all kinds of interesting, you know, you know, correlations there for sure. So again, thinking about the same church, actually literally earlier today, I was talking to a church, there are three services on a Sunday morning, adding a fourth. And I was asking the XP, how’s it going? And he said, well, we had our, they have like their main parking lot and then they have like the grass parking lot. They’re part of the country country where you can do the grass parking lot. And he’s like, our grass parking lot this last weekend, we’re recording this in early January, was full. And he’s like, we did not anticipate that. And he’s like, I know I’m at least four years away from a building program. I’m not sure, you know, what, what to do. And I thought it was kind of funny that I’m talking with you guys today as well.Rich Birch — So Curt, when you think when, and so this, this guy was a little freaked out because he’s like, man, we got years before we can think about, and he’s thinking permanent building. So when churches are thinking about expanding, many of us, we jump right to permanence. Hey, how long is it going to take? You know, if you talk to our friends on that side, there’ll be three years to, you know, and lots of money.Rich Birch — What have you learned about the danger of kind of skipping this, maybe some sort of interim in between step? Talk us through, you know, why maybe permanence isn’t, shouldn’t be our first step when we’re thinking about this.Curt Banter — Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, and I often tell people, I like, I love the permanent space. I got no problem with that. But if the momentum is really flying and things are going fast, that that is that is a big chunk of why we exist. I mean, we can build a design. You know, you can, it’s, it’s if you you need to find a location. You need to figure out your team. There’s a lot of steps that need to happen in here, regardless of whether you’re going to be building a building or doing a portable church or whatever it may be. Curt Banter — And so this is a, it’s a great time to kind of figure out what the next steps are. And it really is, it’s an opportunity to, to trial things. And like I say, for us, the big deal is is, you know, instead of that four year window, that kind of thing, I was just talking to somebody yesterday and they said, well, you know, how many, how many months would it take? And I said, well, if if we’re talking in months, we’re in good shape. Because sometimes people show up and they’re like, Hey, we need to do something in 10, 12 weeks. And I’m like, okay, we could probably do that. You know?Rich Birch — Right. We can hustle.Curt Banter — Yeah, I mean, and that’s that’s pretty low risk. Like if you can get get something off the ground in 10 or 12 weeks, you know, that… Rich Birch — Right. Curt Banter — …that that gives you opportunity to really take advantage of that and not have to freak out about what my next step is and figure out how am I going to excavate or get a architect involved or, you know, whatever permitting all these things, which, you know, yeah, you’ll get to that. But we don’t have to really work through a lot of those issues to get something launched fairly quick.Jeffrey Beachum — If if I could… Rich Birch — Jump in – yeah, absolutely. Jeffrey Beachum — …we, we recently did a case study of a church down in Florida and they, it’s an amazing church in itself, but they went to a campus and thinking they were only going to have to be there for a couple of years because they had a property across the street. And what happened in that campus was amazing and God blessed them. Jeffrey Beachum — And After they ended up, instead of being there two years, they ended up being there four years. As they were getting into their fourth year, we said, you know what, we need to capture this because this is exciting stuff that they could do. They had 6,000 people on a high school campus on an Easter Sunday…Rich Birch — That’s crazy. Jeffrey Beachum — …which is wacko in my mind. Rich Birch — Sure.Jeffrey Beachum — But we went down to capture it. And the theme that kept coming out of the volunteers and the leaders that we interviewed was, why would we have waited? Why would we have put this off for four years? Look what happened in the four years that we were in this environment. And now we get to walk across the street in a few months and fill a brand new building. And they did. They walked across and they added a third service immediately. And now just six months later, they’re up to five services. So that I like to call it an incubation time… Rich Birch — Right. Jeffrey Beachum — …in portability where they can grow and they can test their mettle. They can test their leadership. They can let the community know here’s what we do and here’s who we are. There’s a lot of great benefits to being portable first.Rich Birch — Okay, sticking with you, Jeff, and and with that idea, this frame of like, a hey, we’re going to, you know, maybe like you’re saying test or take the first step towards a long term plan that’s portable. I’m sure you’ve had a lot of those conversations with churches over the years that have done that.Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.Rich Birch — I’m sure some of them were like, maybe hesitant at the beginning, and then they do it. And then there’s learnings that come back. They they discover, oh wow, this this was different, better. Here were some of the advantages of going portable first. What would be some of those? Rich Birch — I hear the idea of like, in that church’s example of like, hey, we actually were able to start reaching people rather than waiting for four or five years for a building and then start doing that. We actually start to do that now. That’s a great benefit. Any other, that kind of thing that comes back that people are surprised they didn’t see on the, on the, on the outset.Jeffrey Beachum — Well, I think people are surprised when they go portable, at least in our experience with portable church, we we see churches are able to bolster their volunteer base. Normally you get into experiences like that and volunteers, you know, they they they do it for a while and then they say, I’m out. But in our case, it’s intuitive enough and exciting enough, and they see the results that the volunteers usually grow in that case.Jeffrey Beachum — Another great example purpose for going portable first would be to become a part of the community that you’re targeting for that that next facility that’s going to be permanent. If the community sees that you are already a part of them and that you make a difference, they’re going to make it easier for you to get the permissions to get everything constructed in a timely basis. They’re not going to get in the way because they see the value of having you already in the community.Jeffrey Beachum — And then there’s always, you know, the the the end result is that when people are hurting and you go into a new community and you answer a need and they they get to go to a place that they’re familiar with, the school, the YMCA, movie theater, whatever that is, in a very comfortable setting that they’re already familiar with and learn about Jesus and have hope restored. So there’s just a few, but there’s a lot of reasons to go portable first.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.Rich Birch — I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this. In fact, I’m pretty sure I haven’t. So the church I’m at now, next year, 2027, will be a 20-year anniversary. And although I’m not on staff anymore, I do this full-time. I’m still a part of the church. I love it. And you know they have like the organizational values. And we we had one of our campuses was portable for 17 years using a Portable Church Industries system. I know you know that, Jeff. Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.Rich Birch — And when we, I was like emotional when we were putting those cases away and like unpacking them. It was like, oh my word, like this was like a big deal. And actually one of the the staff team’s values, I just saw this yesterday, I was in the office, is we push cases. And, you know, they they internally, even though they’re not portable anymore, we push cases, this idea of like, hey, we’re all in. And it’s like this thing they kind of tell each other. And I actually think friends like I’m I try I’m trying to be like the unbiased, like, oh, I’m just interviewing these guys. But like, I love Portable Church. I love what they’re up to. I love how you help churches.Rich Birch — And I think your systems, the actual physical systems that you make are like the biggest competitor to you because I bump into them all the time. You know, a decade later, 15 years later, this stuff is still rolling out there. So, Curt, when you design a system where, you know, let’s say we’re we’re headlong in. We’ve said we’re going to do this. We’re going to we’re going to go portable. What do you prioritize? Is it experience, efficiency, volunteer experience, future growth? Talk us through how that kind of the the framework for how your team thinks through the actual design of these things, because it’s it feels like magic to me that, you know, it all comes together. It’s incredible.Curt Banter — Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it’s it’s funny. All those things are important. And I think a lot of what you have to do is when we go when we go and meet with a church, we talk through all that stuff. You walk in the building and you get a sense of, okay, what’s your identity? What, you know, how does it feel? What does what does the environment look like? What’s your auditorium experience? What’s what’s your kids? You know, what kind of security do you want? There’s just all these environmental questions that we’re trying to figure out.Curt Banter — And obviously budget plays a part in it as well, but it’s sort of a balancing act. You’ve got to sort of gather all the information in terms of who they are, what what are they trying to achieve, what’s their timeline, you know, and then you’re kind of baking all that into one big pie and trying to figure out how to you know, balance it all together.Curt Banter — But yeah, it’s it’s different. And it’s funny, I was I tell people, I’ve told Jeff this story, is like, when we sit down with a church, I always tell people, like, if there’s 10 things that are important, don’t assume that I know what they are, because the 10 things that are really important to this church are not the 10 things that may be important to you. Rich Birch — That’s so true.Curt Banter — And every single system has to be, we really base it around what is the the core values of that team, that church.Rich Birch — And how, reveal what that looks like a little bit for people folks. Cause I do think this is, this might be, this isn’t like a pull it off the shelf kind of thing.Curt Banter — No.Rich Birch — You’re building a custom system for people. What does that kind of consulting process look like? How do you, how does that actually, what’s actually look like, Curt?Curt Banter — Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So a lot of times we’ll we’ll set up a consultation, we’ll go in and it’s a it’s a full day of discovery, right? So it’s a lot of meetings with, it could be the executive pastor, we’re meeting with the production team, we’re meeting with the kids people, everybody, people that are making coffee, literally, you know, every part and piece of it.Curt Banter — And it’s a lot of just listening. It’s it’s a lot of me writing notes and figuring out what’s important to people. And yeah, we’re also talking about sound boards and PAs and you know lighting systems and all that kind of stuff. But it’s it’s tons and tons of gathering and information. Because yeah there’s there’s not there’s really nothing about the system that’s stock. Every single part and piece of it is customized for every client from some of our most budget systems to systems that are gigantic with lots of trailers and and lots going on, so. But yeah, it’s that data, that customization for each client is a gigantic part of what makes us, us.Rich Birch — Yeah. And I’ve said to folks who have used you when I knew they were you know coming up to a consultation, I’m like, just just mirroring the same thing you’re saying, just tell them everything. Like don’t like don’t hold back and you know and and talk through it all ah and be really clear.Curt Banter — Yeah.Rich Birch — Sometimes people come back and the system’s like, well, that’s maybe not what we were hoping it would be. Maybe everyone has like, what is it? Platinum Dreams and you know they have a smaller budget or whatever.Curt Banter — Oh, yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — But but but that’s okay.Rich Birch — That’s a part of your job is to try to help them right size it and and all that. Jeff, kind of on the brand consistency. Oh, sorry. Jump in. You were going to say something there. Yep.Jeffrey Beachum — I was just going to follow up with what Curt said, because I’ve attended with Curt a number of the consultations, and just walk away amazed at the value of just being being able to have Curt sit in a room with the leaders and how it feeds to the leaders really well.Jeffrey Beachum — And so some some significant things that I’ve seen Curt do is help them to understand it. So what kind of a what does your worship feel like? And what kind of sound system do you use? And there are some churches now that I say have the Cadillac of systems and they have the best of everything. And it could be really expensive. And if they’re going to multiply sites, that could get expensive over time. Jeffrey Beachum — And I’ve seen Curt be very gracious about, all right, so you have this top line equipment. If you’re going to do this two or three times, wouldn’t you like to like jump down to a Buick? and And have your people get really comfortable up with a Buick. Because to be honest with you, only the the professionals recognize the difference between a Buick and Cadillac. All of them still have four wheels and a steering wheel.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jeffrey Beachum — And so he’ll talk about that. And then another key piece is that depending on who’s in the room when Curt does the discovery, he talks about the balance that people really don’t get to the worship space where the high production happens for 7 to 10 minutes. And they pass a lot of things. So there’s a nice balance to the design of the system with the children’s space, which I think is probably as as important or more important than the worship space, because no parent wants to go in and be have misgivings about what the space looks like and what’s going to happen to the child that they’re going to abandon into the care of these people and then walk across the street and the pastor think for one minute he has their attention enough to to preach the most important hour or 20 minutes of of their life…Rich Birch — Right.Jeffrey Beachum — …to change their life. They’re thinking about what the heck did I just do to my kids? Rich Birch — Right.Jeffrey Beachum — So I’ve seen Curt very graciously help them balance everything out and say, this is how it is important. And it’s important that we we get it into a system so that it can be done with volunteers quickly and they can have success every single time, every single week. Rich Birch — Love it. Jeffrey Beachum — And they can be excited and feel they’re as invested in the message that of the gospel as the pastor is.Rich Birch — Well, let’s double click on that with you, Curt. You know, I think there’s a lot of executive pastors listening in today and, and I have had this experience as an executive pastor. I’m like talking to some tech person and they’re like, we need the—using Jeff’s thing—we need the Cadillac. Like, you know, the gospel will not go forth without, you know, the Cadillac. And and and I look at all this and I’m like, it’s numbers and letters on a page. And how do I understand all that?Rich Birch — How do you help leadership teams really not either over invest or under invest, particularly on the technology side? Because that side, you know, a kids panel, you know, that stuff, it feels like, okay, that’s pretty consistent. But this area feels like, man, we can, it’s like sky’s the limit. So how how do you help churches on that piece particularly?Curt Banter — Yeah, I mean I mean, one of the first things I almost always do is I’ll ask people, to say, are you okay, so do we do you have experts coming to run this, or do you have staff coming to run this, or do you have volunteers running this?Rich Birch — Yes.Curt Banter — Because those are two very different things… Rich Birch — Yes. Curt Banter — …and if you’ve got volunteers coming, which a great majority of our churches do, then you’ve got to think about who you’re designing this for, right?Rich Birch — Yep.Curt Banter — And that is a problem because a lot of production directors are like, this is what I want. I’m like, are are you going to run it? Because if you’re not going to be there, it doesn’t really matter that much, you know. So a lot of times we’re really trying. I mean, sometimes i hate to be the wet blanket, but sometimes I think, and i can i can I can speak the language. I know what all the letters and everything mean. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Curt Banter — But sometimes I’m trying to back them off a little bit to say, look, let’s build a system that’s repeatable. Let’s build a system that anybody… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true. Curt Banter — …maybe not anybody, but certainly your volunteers, somebody who’s equipped to do it, can do that, set it up in a reasonable amount of time. And and and every week they’re not having to try to troubleshoot it and figure it out and because it’s so complex.Curt Banter — And yeah, that that may be the right system for your main campus. But a lot of times at these portable locations, we’re trying to do something that’s fast, efficient, volunteer friendly. that’s That’s really key. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s a critical piece.Curt Banter — So we’re I’m constantly bringing that kind conversation back around to, okay, that’s great. There’s a trade-off in time. There’s a trade-off in expertise. Do we want to do that, you know? And sometimes we say, yeah, that one, we we do want to do it, but maybe we don’t do it over here. there’s you know So it’s always a balancing act there a little bit.Rich Birch — Yeah, that that to me, that’s a that’s a critical piece. I think it’s such a great thing that that you guys offer to help us think through that. And what is the nuance there and and be another like another voice in the room? Because I think sometimes we end up in those conversations with the with the pro or person that wishes they were a pro you know tech person. And there’re it’s like…Rich Birch — It’s like they’re they’re they want like the all the bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, they’re not going to have to solve these problems long term.Curt Banter — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Let’s, Jeff, let’s talk about the volunteer piece, particularly. So, man, I’m here in like set up, tear down, rolling stuff, plugging stuff in. You know, we we know that churches live and die on volunteers in every location, but it’s particularly true in in portable environments. How do systems, well thought out systems from the front end help us win with volunteers, you know week in, week out, not from day one, but then continue over the years.Jeffrey Beachum — Oh, well, and actually that’s that’s a part of Curt’s team and production and integration and all of that. the The system that Portable Church uses, if you think about it, the the Portable Church has to have all the same stuff your home church has. It’s just all put into a portable system. So you need all of that. Jeffrey Beachum — And and I’m betting at your home church, you’ve built that up over a series of 5 to 10 years. And here you get it all in one shot. And because that you’re starting out with church and it has to be done well. So you don’t have boomerang volunteers that say, oh, I tried this and I’m going back home. We don’t have that.Jeffrey Beachum — So some of the things that help with that is that they are designed for that repetitive nature where everything goes in the same place in the case. So every case is designed custom for that particular room. And so one group can come in and set everything up and a whole different group can come in and put it away after you’re done with your one, two, three services. And and it all be in the same place because it everything, every piece has a home and within each case. Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. Jeffrey Beachum — And then every case, has a specific place on a trailer because we advocate for trailers and we can explain that later, but everything is weighted out. So we have people that actually weigh each case and where it should go on the trailer so that we’re not breaking some of your volunteers’ hitches, that we’re not having stuff abandoned on the side of the road.Jeffrey Beachum — And so there’s a meticulous design that goes into meeting the needs so that the church can be effective. And allowing the the case system to be productive. And we have people, kids as early as 10 or 12, they think it’s cool to be able to be a part of that.Rich Birch — It’s so true.Jeffrey Beachum — And so they’re from 12 to 80 years old pushing these cases and being helpful in a way that maybe they’re not teachers. Maybe they’re not Sunday school teachers. Maybe they’re not preachers. Maybe they’re not people who welcome you know easily, and they don’t have those skills, but they love pushing the cases and being a part of that.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.Curt Banter — Yeah, that’s to to tag onto that.Rich Birch — Yeah.Curt Banter — That’s, I mean, the the teams I’ve been a part of in the past, we’ve, we’ve had groups of volunteers that never would have served in a permanent location.Rich Birch — A hundred percent.Curt Banter — They had no, they had no place there. They had no home there. Guys that pull trucks, people that are on the security team, people that are bringing in food to the green room, whatever it may be. And they, they really do. They find a home there. They find connection there. It’s not just about the serving. It’s also about the community. They’re very much interlinked. Rich Birch — Yeah. 100%.Jeffrey Beachum — And it’s important enough that we we warn churches. So when you go from portable to permanent, you need to find a home for all these amazing volunteers that they can continue to to serve.Rich Birch — Yeah. And we’ve, I was going to echo that. Like I’ve seen that time and again, in campuses have been a part of where we’ve gone from portable to permanent. And even though I’ve seen it, I’m like, there are a group of these volunteers that are like, they’re the backbone of the church. Like the, it’s all theoretical until the roadies show up and set the thing up. Like we’re, we’re theoretically doing church this weekend. And then this group of heroes show up and, you know, make it all happen.Rich Birch — And it is a group typically, it’s not always, but it’s my experience has been, it’s typically a group of guys who they don’t necessarily, they love it, but they don’t necessarily fit in other places. And they get this like foundational role in the church and love getting a little bit sweaty. And it’s the systems are designed so they’re not super hard. Rich Birch — One thing I want to say too, as a friend, like I remember years ago, this is again, probably 20 years ago with Pete, the founder of Portable Church. I was, I was at your location at the production location. And was, I was like waxing eloquently about, man, these cases are incredible. And he like, and you’re going to know what this is. I can’t remember the exact stat, but he he was showing this one case with this door that like flips down and you know he’s like, well, you know, if a certain person of a certain height, if something gets dropped into the bottom of that case, that door is designed so they can lean down and pick it up out of the bottom of that of that case. And he had some stat around like, you know, well you know, like X number of volunteers typically are this.Rich Birch — And I was like the amount of thinking that’s gone into the design is incredible. like And these are not like these just boxes that you’re pushing around there, although they are, they’re thought through, like lots of small things throughout the entire system that always strike me. I’m like, man, that’s just such a great idea, which is you know pretty incredible.Rich Birch — Curt, coming back to kind of an a little bit of an earlier question, I want to, there may be people that are listening in there like, yeah, I strategically get that. Maybe we’re going to spend a little less money. We could do some sort of like portable thing to help us before we go, you know, long-term. But some leaders might hear portable and think cheap, temporary, not great, ineffective, not on brand, all that kind of stuff. Help us think through how portable it really, yeah, how does that, what how how do you respond to that? How do you respond to those kind of potential criticisms?Curt Banter — Yeah. Yeah, I think I was trying to think of, ah you know, what, what causes the cheap thing. And I, I, I hate to say it, but I think sometimes it tends to be a DIY situation. It tends to be something where it’s, it’s that we talked about it earlier, that emergency situation, like I’ve got to figure out a solution.Rich Birch — Right.Curt Banter — And so I think sometimes people that go out and they grab this and they grab that and pull together. And now you’ve got this, you know, And there are churches that we go and work with where we sort of refresh the system or optimize the system.Curt Banter — And a lot of times you’ll see that where it’s just stuff in a trailer. Rich Birch — Right.Curt Banter — I mean, it’s just, they’re in boxes. They’re in, you know, cardboard, seen TVs and cardboard boxes that have been in those cardboard boxes for five, six years, you know, that kind of thing.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.Curt Banter — And I think that’s the, I think that’s sometimes maybe where the cheap comes from. And, and it’s the, the deal with us is, you know, everything’s thought out, right? Everything has a home. Everything has an an an intention in the way that it’s stored, used, trainability in terms of, you know. So, you know, I often say to people like, look, people go and pay lots and lots of money to go see concerts at big venues, right? And that’s all portable. It doesn’t have to be cheap. Those aren’t cheap. It’s really, it’s dependent upon, you know, what is your budget and what is your volunteer base and everything else. It doesn’t need to be cheap. And even at lots of budget levels, it doesn’t look cheap because there’s really a lot of thought that’s put into how it’s used.Curt Banter — So I don’t think, you know, there’s lots of opportunities to make it look great in a portable situation, but But yeah, it has to be, and like you were talking about with Pete, it has to be thought out. It has to be engineered. It has to be put together in a way that’s easy and fast and and looks good and has quality about it.Rich Birch — Well, and this this gets to how many churches you guys have worked with. Like, this is the insane, like, it’s some giant number. Like, it’s I know I said thousands at the front end, but what what is that number, Jeff? What is that? It’s it’s some huge number, right?Jeffrey Beachum — I, I think right now it’s got to be north of like 4000 churches over the last 30 years.Curt Banter — Something like that.Rich Birch — See, this is friends. This is what I’m saying. There are people that are listening in and you’re like, we could just do this on our own. And I’m like, well, why would you do that? Like talk to the people who have, they, although your situation is super unique, they’ve worked with 4,000 other churches in super unique situations and have helped them figure it out. And man, like that’s, you wanna leverage all of that thinking to help you figure out, okay, how are we gonna get this to work at, you know, insert junior high, high school, whatever it is, you know, bowling alley, whatever it is, wherever you’re you’re moving into, that’s that’s great.Jeffrey Beachum — Yep.Rich Birch — Curt, oh, sorry, go ahead, Jeff.Jeffrey Beachum — Well, I was just going to so I would also, when it comes to the value piece, ask how how valuable is it for you to have and to continue the momentum that you have going into your next, your next facility, whatever that is.Jeffrey Beachum — So you’ve got a gap when you finally realize, man, we got to do something and we got do something fast. Portability can be done within three to four months. We can have you on the ground, in your site and probably for an investment of maybe 3 to 5 or 7% of whatever that end expense is going to be, could be invested to keep that momentum going and to make things stronger.Jeffrey Beachum — And so with that gap between we need to land somewhere and landing in a permanent spot, you could have anywhere from a three to five year gap that could be highly productive in a highly professional environment with professional gear run by your volunteers.Jeffrey Beachum — And I don’t know very many, I mean, there are some guys that do DIY and do it well, but I don’t know very many that take into consideration all those engineering feats… Rich Birch — Right. Jeffrey Beachum — …that originally were thought up 30 years ago and Curt’s team continues now. Rich Birch — Right. Jeffrey Beachum — They produce a system that is amazing and helpful. And most of our the churches that we work with, they they come back. In fact, Liberty Live, we just did another interview with Liberty Live, and they were gushing about how much we’ve helped them with several sites. And it’s wonderful to hear that they’re effective because of us putting you know a carpet on wood and putting the right stuff in the right places and helping them to share the gospel.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible. That’s so good. Yeah, and i love that. You may not like what I’m able to say, but I’ve said this behind your backs. But, you know, so so many times I’ve said to leaders when they’re thinking about this exact moment, I’m like, okay, so let’s talk about worst case scenario.Rich Birch — Let’s be the like, okay, we we launched this location and this campus and we’re, you know, we’re excited about it. It’s working well. But, you know, we don’t know. You don’t know what’s going to happen there.Rich Birch — Well, the beautiful thing about a portable system is like, let’s give that a run for two or three years. And but best case scenario, four years, like the example you used, four years, we end up moving into some other facility. Well, that’s great. Well, what we do what do we do with this portable system? We take it and put it somewhere else, which I know you’d like us to say, you buy a new system. But but but I say, just take it and you know get them to come back and retrofit it… Jeffrey Beachum — Yes. Rich Birch — …and then go into a new location which you can’t do I don’t know any, and I’ve known multiple churches that have done exactly that play, which is, you know, just, you talk about stewardship. That’s just incredible use of the resources that God’s given you.Rich Birch — It’s amazing stuff. Curt Banter — Yeah, we’re in the process of… Rich Birch — Well, as we’re coming to land here, sorry, go ahead. Curt Banter — …to say we’re in the process of talking to several churches right at the moment that are that are retooling systems that they’ve had in play for 5 to 10 years. Rich Birch — Right. Curt Banter — And it’s exactly it’s an engine, right? Rich Birch — Yes.Curt Banter — They use it for growth. They retool it and they put it back out there to do the next one. And that’s part of the plan. It’s not a happenstance. They they that is the plan, like is to always keep pushing that thing forward.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, absolutely. And that DUI thing, DUI, that’s different. DUI, do it yourself, DIY. That’s a Freudian slip. The that happens in churches all the time.Rich Birch — You know, a friend of mine’s church, they were, you know, I was like, you really should be using Portable Church. And they didn’t use Portable Church and they came to their opening weekend and a key piece of gear did not fit through the door. Jeff knows the church I’m talking of.Rich Birch — And they, you know, I was, you know, the leader that I know is like a little bit frustrated with, you know, with all that. And I happened to see pictures of their launch and I’m like, oh, you got it through the door. And they’re like, no, we did not get it through the door. We ended up spending more money and figured out like an older thing or something and retrofitted. And I’m like, gosh, like, you would have saved all that hassle just talking to someone who’s gone ahead and figured out how do you fit all this into a box and get it through a door. Rich Birch — As we’re coming to land, maybe a couple last ah questions, maybe one for you, Jeff. If if there’s a leader that’s in this, they’re they’re facing the capacity pressure right now, what’s kind of one step they should take in this next 90 days? Where should they go next? and then I got one last question for you, Curt, as we wrap up.Jeffrey Beachum — So the next 90 days, I would say, certainly you’re not going to land in a new location in the next 90 days. But what you can do is you can take a look in your crystal ball and say, I think something could be in our future and begin to know what you don’t know.Rich Birch — Good.Jeffrey Beachum — And I would say there’s a lot about going portable, the benefits of portability, some of the processes involved that we would love to just tell you about and inform you about so that 12, 18, 24, even 36 months down the road, you you have that knowledge and you say, all right, I’ve got this one in my pocket. I know I can do this. And we would be here to help you. Jeffrey Beachum — So I would say in the next 90 days, give us a call and talk to us and say, hey, I don’t know when we’re going to do this, but I kind of feel that we’re going to have to. Can you help me understand and learn about it? Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeffrey Beachum — I guess that’s the best step.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s fantastic. You can go to your website, right? Portablechurch.com/Jeff, I think is the answer. Jeffrey Beachum — Yes.Rich Birch — If you want to actually talk with you, which is amazing. I’ve so i’ve told people that I’m like, Jeff will get on the phone and talk to you. Like he’s a real live human. Jeffrey Beachum — Forever.Rich Birch — And at the end of it, it’s not like, you know, there’s a, you know, a credit card, you’re buying a new system. That’s not what it is. It’s like, Hey, we want to help you understand early, get in the process. You cannot start the conversation too early. You know, I appreciated Curt saying like, hey, I talked to this leader and they said maybe 10, 12 weeks from now I need something done.Rich Birch — Don’t do that. Like start early. Like if you’re as and they say they’ll do that. That’s fine. That’s that’s Portable Church. They’ll actually help you. But from my end as an operator, I’m like, even if you’re inkling thinking like early in the we might be doing something down the road. I’m not even sure if this is an option. Call Jeff – he’d be happy to help you. Rich Birch — Curt, for you, senior leader of the organization – you know, Portable Church is doing a great job. 4,000, we’re looking forward to that when you click over 5,000 churches. What would you say to a leader that’s listening in today as they’re thinking about expansion, maybe a senior leader, like, you know, a lead pastor, that sort of thing? What kind of words of advice or wisdom would you give them as we wrap up today’s episode?Curt Banter — Yeah. It’s funny, like as, as people are growing and they’re expanding, we’ve talked about this a few times, but think about, you’ve poured everything you got into your, especially if you’re in one location, you’ve poured everything you got into that one location. All of you’ve got your special sauce and all of those people that are really talented at what they do. And now you’re like, we need to grow. And maybe that’s another location. And okay, how how are we going to do that?Curt Banter — And I think a lot of people are really commonly saying, okay, we’re going to stretch that base over two. And a lot of times you can sort of get away with that a little bit. But what tell you what you go to three or even as you really fully expand into two, you’re going to feeling it. And so the the thing I would always say is, again, think about your long-term strategy. Rich Birch — That’s good.Curt Banter — Think about what you’re going to need in terms of your team, in terms of repetition and process. And it just it’s going to serve you so well in the long run to be thinking about how the people play into this and how you’re going reproduce it versus just you know getting through this moment.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, appreciate you guys being on today. Again, if you want more information on Portable Church, you can just drop by portablechurch.com. There’s a ton of information on there, lots of helpful resources and all that.Rich Birch — And if you want to talk to Jeff specifically, just go to portablechurch.com/Jeff. He would love to jump on a call with you and talk you through whatever you know kind of issues, or even if it’s just like, hey, we’re kind of thinking about this.Rich Birch — What questions should we be asking? He would love to jump on a call with you. So thanks so much, gentlemen. I appreciate you being here today.Curt Banter — It’s good to be here.Jeffrey Beachum — Thanks. Appreciate it Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Jason and Nan Britt from Bethlehem Church, one of the fastest-growing churches in the country with three campuses in Georgia—and a fourth on the way. Jason serves as Lead Pastor, while Nan has pioneered a powerful inclusion ministry called Bethlehem Buddies, designed to help children, students, and adults with special needs fully participate in the life of the church. In this conversation, they unpack how inclusive ministry became a defining part of Bethlehem's culture and how any church—regardless of size—can take meaningful steps in this direction. Is your church unsure how to serve families affected by special needs? Do you feel overwhelmed by where to start or afraid of doing it wrong? Jason and Nan offer practical, hope-filled wisdom rooted in real-life experience. Revitalization with intentional mission. // Bethlehem Church is a revitalization story at every campus. When Jason arrived 14 years ago, the church had plateaued and was struggling to reflect its surrounding community. Rather than questioning the church's heart, Jason focused on intentionality—helping the congregation shift from insider-focused habits to an outward-facing mission. Located near Athens, Georgia, Bethlehem serves a family-centric community, prompting leaders to double down on reaching families and the next generation. That commitment laid the groundwork for inclusion ministry, even before the church realized it. Seeing an unreached community. // Nan's background in special education played a critical role in shaping Bethlehem Buddies. Long before it became a formal ministry, Jason and Nan were deeply immersed in the lives of families affected by disability. When they arrived at Bethlehem, they recognized that many families in their community wanted to attend church but lacked the support to do so. Rather than being opposed to special needs ministry, churches often feel overwhelmed by it. Bethlehem chose to take a different approach—starting small, stepping in with humility, and learning along the way. Inclusion, not separation. // Nan defines inclusion as inviting people with disabilities into the same environments as everyone else—preschool, kids ministry, student ministry, and adult worship—rather than isolating them into separate spaces. Inclusion honors the individual and recognizes that people with disabilities don't all look the same or need the same support. A five-year-old with autism and a 30-year-old man with Down syndrome should be welcomed into age-appropriate environments, with individualized support when needed. The goal isn't just inclusion, but belonging—creating space for people to contribute and use their gifts within the body of Christ. The buddy model at scale. // Bethlehem Buddies pairs each individual with a trained volunteer—called a “buddy”—whose role is simple but powerful: be their best friend for 90 minutes. Buddies focus on connection over compliance, valuing relationship more than control. While some individuals prefer quieter environments, most are included directly into existing ministries with one-on-one support. Parents can attend worship knowing their child or adult family member is safe, known, and loved. Over time, this model has grown from serving one child to serving more than 300 families every weekend. Unexpected volunteer impact. // One of the biggest surprises has been how Bethlehem Buddies shapes volunteer culture. The ministry attracts people who might never serve in traditional kids or student roles—men, teenagers, business leaders—and cultivates empathy, humility, and ownership. Jason notes that the ministry has become one of the strongest volunteer-recruiting pipelines in the church, strengthening the overall mission and heart of Bethlehem. From program to culture. // Early on, Nan personally recruited volunteers by tapping shoulders and inviting people she saw potential in. Over time, inclusion became embedded in the church's DNA. Today, the culture itself recruits. Serving families affected by special needs has reshaped Bethlehem's understanding of the gospel—reinforcing the truth that the kingdom of God is for everyone, especially “the least of these.” Jason emphasizes that while inclusion started as the right thing to do, it has become one of the most spiritually formative aspects of the church. Simple steps for churches. // For churches wondering where to begin, Nan encourages leaders to start with one service, one plan, and one conversation. Decide how you would respond if a family arrived this Sunday. Identify a few volunteers who could serve as buddies. Use a detailed family intake form to prepare volunteers and build trust with parents. Jason urges pastors to see opportunity rather than obstacles—and to remember that you don't need to be an expert to start, just willing to learn. To learn more about Bethlehem Church and the Bethlehem Buddies Network, visit bethlehemchurch.us. Churches interested in starting or strengthening inclusion ministry can email Nan directly and take take a look at Bethlehem’s Buddies Volunteer Handbook. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends. Welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. I really want you to lean in today. This is one of those issues that we see in churches all the time that I really hope tons churches that are leaning in or listening in today will lean in on this issue, particularly if you’re a growing church. This might be one of those just up over the horizon issues that it that you can get ahead on and work ahead on now and and actually create more space for more people in your community. Rich Birch — Really excited to have Jason and Nan Britt with us. They’re from Bethlehem Church. It’s repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country with three locations, if I’m counting correctly, in Georgia. Jason is the lead pastor and Nan has championed a program called Bethlehem Buddies. And we’re really looking forward to pulling this apart. They offer that all campuses and they provide inclusive support to help preschooler, child, teenager, and adults with special needs transition smoothly into one of the church’s worship environments. So Jason, Nan, welcome to the show. So glad that you are here.Nan Britt — Thank you. Jason Britt — And we’re thankful, thankful for for you having us.Rich Birch — Yeah, Jason, why don’t you tell us, kind of give us the picture of Bethlehem Church, kind of tell us a little bit about the church, kind of set the picture. If we were to arrive… Jason Britt — Yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — …on a typical weekend, what would we experience?Jason Britt — Yeah. It’s three campuses, hopefully four soon. They’re all revitalization story. We just actually relocated our broadcast campus about a mile down the road. We’re a year in now… Rich Birch — Nice. Jason Britt — …December when you’re broadcasting this. And so we opened, new and it’s a revitalization story, multiple services, and it’s just a church that had history. And all of our campuses, Rich, are revitalization stories, too.Jason Britt — And it was a church with history that just had the courage, if you will, to envision a new future or be open to envisioning a new future. And we’ve been here for 14 years. It was my first senior pastorate, and it’s been a phenomenal year. And the church has just embraced the mission of leading people to discover new life in Christ in all areas of our ministry.Rich Birch — Why don’t we stick with you, Jason, and double click on revitalization. Jason Britt — Yeah. Rich Birch — Kind of pull apart that picture a little bit, help people, because I know there’s people that are listening in today that are on the other side of revitalization. And they’re thinking, hey, you know, what were some of, you know, you first stepped into that journey. What were some early questions that you were asking that really about that kind of led you to the place of like, hey, this is what I think the church could become. Where what started that journey for you?Jason Britt — Yeah, I think even in the process of, you know how it goes in different denominations or tribes have different ways of calling a pastor. And so for me, as I talked with the group that was selecting a pastor, the church had been plateaued for a number of years, plateaued, declining, kind of fell on that. And ultimately, my question for them is, what’s your limiting, have you guys considered your limiting factor? You know, and I think our church, although the heart was there, it did not reflect the community as a whole. And so by that, I mean the heart for mission was there, but not the intentionality of mission, if you will.Jason Britt — And so we really kind of began a two to three year journey of what would it look like for our church to reflect our community. And our community, Rich, we’re outside we’re kind of the bedroom community of Athens Georgia. Rich Birch — Okay. Jason Britt — All of our campuses surround the college town of Athens and it’s very family-centric, very kid-centric. I mean it’s not a high single adult population out here, if you will. This is where families live. And so we really needed to double down and become incredibly serious about the next generation and reaching families.Jason Britt — And I think it was just the reality of getting intentional with what our mission and heart was. The church wasn’t, I think I heard years ago, maybe on your podcast or somebody else, a pastor say, when you take over a church, one of two things are happening. They either believe they won the Super Bowl or they believe they’re losing every game.Jason Britt — Neither he goes, neither—I think it was Jud Wilhite said, I’m not sure… Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, yeah. Jason Britt — …He goes, neither are true. Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. Jason Britt — But you have to understand their psyche… Rich Birch — Right. Jason Britt — …and the way they see their ministry. So for me, the gift of Bethlehem, Rich, was they were, they were, they were ready to win. I didn’t have to convince them they had to change a ton. I just had to, in many ways, give permission to see things differently. That if you will, the local church tends to be drift toward insider focused…Rich Birch — Yep, that’s true. Yeah.Jason Britt — …and the gospel is very outsider focused. And so for us, it was a lot of, if you will, deconstructing some things before we reconstructed, a lot of examining the fruit of what we were doing, not the intent. You know, that was a lot of the earliest, probably where lot people that you’re listening, your listeners are in revitalization. A lot of it’s not what we, early on, is not what we need to do that we’re not doing is what we need to stop doing that we’re doing.Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.Jason Britt — Right. And that’s the hard part, the deconstruction.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s true.Jason Britt — That was my first two or three years. It’s when I had a full head of hair and no gray, you know what i’m saying, bro? And so it was good though, man.Rich Birch — Yes, for sure.Jason Britt — And so that was our early days of really the heart didn’t need a lot of work. The direction and the intentionality to mission, if you will, strategy and vision. So.Rich Birch — Well, I think there’s a lot of churches that are listening in that I think can relate with that idea of like, hey, the heart of our church is is right, but we’re not really taking intentional steps. And at some point as a leadership team, you realized that there were families that wanted to participate fully, but needed something different in order to do that. That’s ultimately what led us to what we’re talking about today. Rich Birch — What opened your eyes to that gap? What kind of got the ball rolling for you as a leadership team, for you specifically or for our leadership team as you were thinking about this issue?Nan Britt — Yeah, so, um you know, we’ve always been in ministry, Jason in ministry, but really my calling has been early on in special education. You know, that was my training and experience.Rich Birch — Okay.Nan Britt — And ah so professionally, you know, that was my job as a teacher. And so really for the first 10 years of our marriage, Jason walked alongside that road with me. And so the students that I taught really had a lot of needs. And so we really got to know those families. We were really immersed in the special needs community of families.Nan Britt — And so as we came to Bethlehem, we knew, we just knew this was such a great need. This was really an unreached group of people in our community. And so we were excited at the opportunity to be able to serve these families. You know, with him taking that role as as lead pastor, we wanted to make that a priority with our church.Nan Britt — And so that was that was an easy way for me to get involved as a volunteer. So I served as a volunteer for several years because that was just my experience and training and gifting and, you know, what I felt called to to do to to take what I had learned and really use that, you know, in the church.Jason Britt — Yeah, I think we’ve been to some great, we served at two great churches before we came here, awesome churches. If I said them, many of your listeners would know they were awesome and we have nothing, but I remember us being there. A lot of times it was, as we as we were serving there, it was not a, nobody’s against special needs ministry. It just seems overwhelming. Rich Birch — That’s true. Yeah.Jason Britt — Right. And that’s what you find is nobody’s against doing it. It’s just kind of what it seems overwhelming, if you will, or where do we even start? And so I think for us, when we came, our kids were young. And as Nan began to It just began as with one person. Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — And really beginning inclusion there. It was more of instead of being overwhelmed by it, almost, if you will… Nan Britt — Yeah. Jason Britt — …taking a step in and giving the example of what of what that looks like.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. And let’s let’s start, we’re going to get into some tactics in a second, but Jason, I want you to think about from like at a 30,000 foot point of view. My impression as an outsider, looking at this, you know, what you guys are doing, it’s pretty robust. You’ve created a pathway for children, students, adults with special needs to be fully included. And we’ll talk about what that means in a minute. But it to me, i think this could struggle if it’s just a tactic. It seems like what you’ve done has been able to talk about it really at kind of a cultural, this who we’re trying to be. So talk to us how we do that as senior leaders. How do we move this from beyond just like this is another thing we do to like, oh, this is a part of who we are. This is how we see ourselves.Jason Britt — Yeah, and and Nan could probably fill a little bit of the gaps here, but I think for me, I would say two things to senior leaders or senior teams if you’re talking about that. I think the cultural piece is when it becomes a kingdom of God, everybody’s invited at the table. Nan Britt — Yes. Jason Britt — The least of these, marginalized, which we know the gospel – Jesus is more drawn to empty hearts and empty lives than he is full rooms, if you will, you know? And so then in our society, the poor, the marginalized or the least of these is not only poor and impoverished, but oftentimes it’s families who have lived and wrestled with and, walk through this. And so creating space for everybody, I would say was a very, for us, Jesus-centric type thing. Nan Britt — Yes. Jason Britt — It was like this, if we are for the least of these, if we are for all people, that was one of our kind of core values as Bethlehem Church is a church for all people, right? Gospel, for God so loved the world. That’s a pretty broad path right there, the world.Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Jason Britt — So then let’s be intentional there. And, and the thing that I would tell you now, and as Nan gets into the tactics, we didn’t do this to start. This wasn’t the reason. The reason was it was the right thing and we could do this, but, Rich, man, I am telling you, when you begin to serve these families and and you see the joy and the blessing and what it does to the heart of the church, you cannot exchange.Rich Birch — That’s true.Jason Britt — Serving these families, when I talk to other pastor buddies that are stepping into this or some good friends that are in the Buddies Network who would do this, I’m like, man, what it does for the whole of your church when it comes to the heart of Christ, you know, and we’ve seen it go from one kid to three serving 300 families a weekend now. And so it’s been a crazy thing. But what it does for the overall mission and heart of the church and the volunteers and the church seeing this is a powerful thing.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would agree. You know, we talked a little bit beforehand about yeah when I esrved at Liquid Church for years, and this has been a part of our story there. It’s like of my proudest things that we had been a part of. And but but I want to take a step back. And Nan, can you help us understand when you say the word inclusion, what do you mean by that as opposed to separation?Rich Birch — So I’ll paint a bit of a picture for you. Maybe I’m a church of, I don’t know, 5-, 600 people. And sure, there are some kids that we can see. There are kids with special needs. And and I’m like, don’t don’t we just want to create a place where we can like put those kids away so they don’t bother us? Again, I’m I’m using hyperbole. Nan Britt — Right. Rich Birch — Obviously, I’m playing a bit of the devil’s advocate. I don’t actually believe that. Nan Britt — Right. Rich Birch — But what what do you mean by inclusion, not separation? What does that look like?Nan Britt — Yes. Well, inclusion simply means that you are, in the church setting, looking at preschool ministry, kids ministry, students, adult ministries, and really just looking for opportunity to include everyone into those environments. You know, and we know that some people, individuals with disabilities, just may need some individualized love, care, and support. But I think inclusion also speaks more importantly to honoring people and seeing people as individuals. Rich Birch — So true.Nan Britt — And so, for example, we know that a 30-year-old man with Down syndrome looks very different than a five-year-old with autism. And so inclusion is honoring and seeing a person for who they are. And so we want to invite a 30 year old man with Down syndrome into the same opportunities that we’re inviting other 30 year old men in in the church. Nan Britt — And so, so that just gives an example and it actually simplifies things a lot. You know, you you’re really whatever is being offered, you know, at your church, for each age group, you’re you’re simply just opening up that opportunity for our kids and adults with disabilities and special needs to be a part of that.Nan Britt — And then, like we said, we just know sometimes that may mean they need some individualized support in order to be a part of those ah great ministries happening. But it I think inclusion really speaks to honoring that individual and seeing them, what they can contribute to the body of Christ. Nan Britt — And so we know everyone wants to be included, but belonging is really the goal. You know, people, we we know the difference, you know, as people when we’re included in a place, but when we’re invited to to to contribute back… Rich Birch — So good. Nan Britt — …and to use our gifts and strengths, you know, that’s when you really feel a sense of belonging. And so I think that’s the power of inclusion versus just, hey, let’s just provide a separate space and because this is what we’re supposed to do.Rich Birch — Right. Right. So can you get tactical on that? What does that actually look like for, because I, you know, I, I understand doing this at a one or two people, but at scale, 3-, 400, 500 every weekend over a year, like that’s, how do you actually do that? We’ll stick with you, Nan. If I’myeah, what what does that look like? How do how do we provide that care? How do we and how do we learn how we can best support people and then communicate with them and all that? What does it kind of… Nan Britt — Yes. Rich Birch — I know there’s a lot there, I understand… Nan Britt — Yes.Rich Birch — …but but give us kind of an overview. We start there.Nan Britt — eah, that’s a great question. I think it’s really important to first define your goal of like… Rich Birch — Right. Nan Britt — …okay, what is our goal and why are we we providing disability ministry, special needs ministry? And what I believe is the goal of it is that so a family can attend worship, can attend a worship service together on a Sunday morning.Rich Birch — Great.Nan Britt — That is the goal. You know, first, over other nights of programming happening at your church, we believe that we want our families to hear the gospel message, the hope of Jesus, to experience worship, prayer, sit under preaching. And so that’s why we we want to focus on inviting them and providing support around a worship service. We know most likely for parents to be able to attend the service, then that means their child or adult is going to need some individualized support and care.Nan Britt — And so that’s that’s where the Buddies team, the Buddies ministry comes in. And so ah you’re going to need some some volunteers. And so really, i think that simplifies it a lot because I think churches get overwhelmed to think, man, do we need to provide something every time the doors of our church are open? And I would say a great place to start and focus on is we want families to be invited to your worship service. Nan Britt — And then equally, ah we want our individuals to experience the love of Christ, grow in their faith, be be in community um with others. And so I think that’s the place to start is while mom and dad get to attend a service and they’re siblings, then we provide a volunteer to pair up with kids and adults with disabilities.Nan Britt — And then from there, you already have these great ministries happening in your church, kids ministries, student ministries, sometimes on a Sunday morning. And then you’re able to just join in the great ministry happening with that buddy support with a child.Nan Britt — And then I do think that if you have the space at your church, you can also offer a classroom space for kids and adults who prefer a quieter setting or do better in a small group setting. Then you can offer another space that that also has the same great ministry happening. So I really think those volunteers drive the ministry… Jason Britt — Yeah. Nan Britt — …and then just get to participate in with with all the great things happening on a Sunday morning at your church.Rich Birch — I love that. Jason, can you, let’s talk about it from the side, because Nan was talking there about the volunteer side of the equation. Let’s talk about it from that end.Rich Birch — What have you seen, kind of what impact has adding buddies and adding a really robust inclusion culture to your church?Jason Britt — Yeah.Rich Birch — How has that kind of impacted the volunteers who are and engaged in this ministry?Jason Britt — Yeah, I think a couple things and our kids will be examples, but they’re friends as well. What you see is there, and and we’ve seen this with male leadership, is there are people that would probably not raise their hand and say, hey, I want to be in preschool or kids ministry. But the chance to pair up and walk with a teenager with special needs, to be included, to be a one-on-one individualized and walk into our kid’s town or our midtown, which is our younger environments, it’s very empowering. And, I mean, it just opens opportunities for connection. And that’s one thing that we’ve seen, that we see people who may not want more than handing out a, but if you will, just on the Sunday service, if you were the Sunday morning weekend environment, serving opportunities, obviously there’s more in the church, but those coffee, parking lot, greeter, than kids ministry. A lot of your churches that you minister to look similar ours, you know what I mean? Jason Britt — And so what we found was that stream of empowering and inviting, and candidly our buddies ministry, is stronger in the recruiting aspect than our kids or student ministry because it’s so unique and it calls things out of people that maybe the other don’t, if you will. We’ve seen that. And so I would say that that was one of the benefits that we didn’t know early on. Nan maybe did just because of her background in special needs. But as we’ve seen it, I mean, you know, students, it’s a powerful thing when you’re watching a 16-year-old, 17-year-old high schooler, when you’re watching them walk with a five-year-old with autism or Down syndrome into a children’s ministry class. That’s just a pretty powerful thing. The humility, the ownership, there’s just… Nan Britt — Empathy. Jason Britt — …empathy. That rich, the discipleship piece of that’s incredibly strong. You know… Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Jason Britt — …that just in this simple, it’s not filling a hole, it’s empowering. And so that’s one of the things we’ve seen. I mean, I know you’ve been around, if you were Liquid, even the Night to Shine, obviously the the Tim Tebow thing. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. Jason Britt — Even that, that’s probably the big mass on a mass scale we do where the church is incredibly involved. But then the opportunities it’s opened up for us on the outside of the church to partner with other nonprofits and bring nonprofits that for serve families with special needs, but we get to bring a gospel presence to that. Rich Birch — Love it.Jason Britt — And that’s because of what we’re doing internally. So I’ve seen both of those things that the mission fulfilled in ways that it’s not just serving those families with special needs, but taking the church to a place we’ve never been.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And, you know, to underline something you said there that we’ve seen through multiple conversations that I think when we cast a big picture and a big responsibility to volunteers, they will step up to that. In fact, they’ll actually lean in. They’ll be like,I’m this is great. This requires a lot of me.Jason Britt — Yes.Rich Birch — I would love to lean in.Jason Britt — Yes.Rich Birch — So Nan, what have you learned about, let’s keep keep on this whole topic here, volunteers. What have you learned about recruiting, finding these volunteers, training them so they feel prepared, confident, like, you know, this is your professionally, you said this… Nan Britt — Right. Rich Birch — …your this is your professional background, but, you know, you take your average 16-year-old, they’re not professionally equipped for this. And so how do you help them get to a place where they can be a buddy?Nan Britt — Right.Rich Birch — Talk us through what that looks like.Nan Britt — Yes. It’s, it’s really, it’s so exciting. That’s something that I’ve always been passionate about to connect people to purpose. And so, and then like you said, to take what I have learned and, and really, put it into terms and, and easy ways, easy strategies for, everyday volunteers to feel equipped.Nan Britt — And, and, and so I think that we, a lot of our training materials have come from that that we love to share with churches because we that’s something that we prioritize is we we have many volunteers that serve that do have a background in special education a lot like myself with experience, and I think they’re needed for sure in this ministry. But we have the majority of our volunteers are teenagers and adults who are businessmen. They own their own construction company. Women who you know are stay-at-home moms. Teenagers who, yeah, who would say, hey, I have a heart for this. I’m available. And we love that. We think that that is absolutely the right person to serve. And so we’ve just found some easy ways. Nan Britt — We are highly prepared on our end as a staff. to ah provide the best experience possible for the volunteer and the child on a Sunday morning. And so we do that with, we have a great family form that we have all of our families fill out. We’ve done that for 11 years. It’s a really detailed form. And so we feel like that gives us so much great information about the child or adult that we’re working with, that the parent has given us. Their interests, their likes, things that their dislikes, what to do to to help them stay calm and engaged. We utilize that every week. We get that in the hands of the volunteers so they feel equipped to to know the child they’re paired up with. Jason Britt — Yeah. Nan Britt — And then we we have great just engaging activities and and Bible stories and worship that that just provide the best experience possible for for an hour and a half on a Sunday morning while they’re with us. We want our volunteers to feel supported, to just enjoy being with their child or adult. You know, we say your role is to be their best friend on a Sunday, to hang out. We really prioritize connection over compliance. You know, we’re highly relational. It’s very individualized. And so we, I think that takes away a lot of the nervousness for our volunteers. Jason Britt — Yeah.Nan Britt — And we really, do have great experiences because church is different. Church is different and should be different than school, than therapy, than camp.Rich Birch — Right.Nan Britt — And so you really can have such a a great experience, you know, for an hour and a half, you know, during a service and people feel equipped. We encourage them. We support them. And, and as you know, Rich, people step in to, to volunteer and, but they always come back to us and say, they are so much more of a blessing to me.Jason Britt — Yeah, yeah. Nan Britt — You know, they, they are really ministering to me because our kids and adults, you know, just have such a, a peaceful presence and unhurried spirit, gracious. They’ll pray for you. And so they turn around and bless our volunteers and minister to them. And in so many greater ways than we, than we ever really do for them. Jason Britt — It’s good.Rich Birch — Yeah, love that. And you use the word buddy, and I’d love to double click on that. You you talked about this, Nan, this idea of be their best friend that, you know, for that 90 minutes every week. It’s not about compliance. Talk us about talk to us about that a little bit more, kind of unpack that a little bit. What does that look like? Because that’s a nuance that I think people might, who have not been around this kind of ministry might not understand that. So unpack that a little bit more. What’s that look like?Nan Britt — Yes. So that’s, that’s what we choose to call our volunteers, buddies, buddy volunteers. And we we think it’s, it fits whether you’re with a child or with your, whether you’re with an adult with a disability. And I think that, the the beauty and the success of the ministry is it’s just individualized, you know, undivided attention for a whole, like you said, 90 minutes where we want our kids and adults to feel seen and heard and valued.Nan Britt — And so if you’re a buddy volunteer, you you have that permission to just celebrate and make that morning just all about their child and get on their level, play with them. You know, we we give a lot of direction around ways to interact with people that have differences. You know, if they’re in a wheelchair, if they don’t verbally communicate, hey, here’s some creative ways of of how you can interact with your buddy. And just to that, you know, to to just place such a high value on that child or adult. And yeah, and there there’s so much celebration around it and so much joy. I think people who walk by buddies or around our ministry, that’s the culture of it’s just so much joy and celebration.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great.Nan Britt — Even when they’re you’re in the presence of so many complex needs, you know, this is a group of people who have a lot of hardships and and very complex needs on paper, but yet you can still just have such a great experience as a buddy volunteer. And like I said, I think that the reason for it is it’s so individualized and it’s ah based around their interest, what they like, and really valuing them and then sharing the love of Jesus. Jason Britt — Yeah.Nan Britt — You know, that unconditional love. That is what we are we strive to share, you know, as a buddy volunteer to our kids and adults. Jason Britt — And I think, we’re Rich, I would add, I think in your churches that are listening, now, then we’re 10 years in, the culture recruits. Nan Britt — True.Jason Britt — Early on, early on, I would say Nan, and she doesn’t give herself enough credit for this, she shoulder tapped a lot of people and would say, hey, you know this is when the church was very smaller and it was. But in the early days, it was a lot of, just like there’s individual care, I would just say the recruiting was individualized… Nan Britt — Yes. Jason Britt — …by Nan, tapping shoulders, saying, hey, I see this in you, or hey, I think you could help me. I mean, I think about… You know, our friends, Richard, Andy, some of these guys who were men’s men that are friends of mine that and and she would just be very specific. Would you and and all of them were like, absolutely. Nan Britt — Yeah.Jason Britt — Before they even knew what they were getting into.Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — I just think early on, I would tell you now our culture does a lot of the recruiting.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jason Britt — But early on it was individualized. I see this in you, that shoulder tapping. Nan Britt — Yep, that’s true. Jason Britt — It was never necessarily my vision for it, recruiting people. It was more of the individualized. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jason Britt — And then now it’s part of our culture, but I would say it didn’t start. It just became a part of our culture. Nan Britt — Yeah. Jason Britt — Does that make sense?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s 100%. 100%. That’s a great thing to underline, even just in general… Jason Britt — Yes. Rich Birch — …but specifically in this this ministry, that those early people that we get involved really do kind of cast vision for the future of like, oh, we’re looking for more of these kind of, like you said, whoever those guys are, your men’s men guys.Jason Britt — Yeah.Rich Birch — It’s like, well, that then creates a door for like other guys like that to say, hey, I want to be a part of that.Nan Britt — Absolutely.Rich Birch — And yeah, that’s good.Nan Britt — Yes.Rich Birch — I was also don’t underestimate the the power of the person asking. I know you highlighted this celebrating your wife, but that’s very true. Like that you want to, the person you put in in charge of this wants to be the kind of person that is trusted and is loved and has got some wisdom. So Jason, sticking with you, I’m sure you get calls from leads, from other lead pastors or executive pastors that might have some like common misunderstandings or fears that about starting a special needs ministry. What are some of those fears that they have and what do you say to them to try to say, no, no, you should do this. What are what are the things that come up in a conversation like that?Jason Britt — It’s great question. I think a lot of times it’s not, it’s, if you don’t have a background or awareness or someone in your family or close to you that has special needs or disabilities, there is a lot of what if, what if, what if.Rich Birch — Right.Jaon Britt — And so like, what if the needs extreme, you know, they have feeding tube or they kind of create the worst case scenario or the hardest situation to go, I don’t know if we could ever. Rich Birch — Right. Jason Britt — And what you realize is the vast majority, the, the, the, the needs not that extreme. So it’s kind of almost right size and go in. No, no, no, no. I think you’re, you’re out thinking, you know, in church, you’ve been around church, Rich, you know, we have a way of out-thinking ourselves somehow of going, well, what if…Rich Birch — Sure. Sure.Jason Britt — Hey, Hey, Hey, there’s a really good chance, you know?Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — And so I think that’d be one of going, no, I think, but a lot of times it’s not from against, it’s just a lack of awareness. Rich Birch — Right. Jason Britt — You know, it’s not, we can’t do this because. I think liability, something that comes up, I mean, candidly, Rich, you know, in this day and age of liability and stuff like that. And I think again, the reality is, we are 10 years in, 300 families. It’s just not something we’ve ever dealt with. Nan Britt — Yeah. Jason Britt — You know, got think these families love these kids more than we could ever love these kids.Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — And so we’re going to be fully equipped and they’re, they’re not, if there’s great needs that, that are, that, they’re probably not going to check them in. They’ll sit with them in the service. You know what I mean? Something like that.Rich Birch — Yep, sure.Jason Britt — I think sometimes that would be one. And then… Nan Britt — Well, yeah, and I would just say, I think that’s when it’s important to have have humility and invite in someone that, like myself that, and I only say myself because like a teacher. Someone who has experience and training professionally in this field so that they’re able to to answer those questions, and to really right size and give a realistic. You know, and I’ve been in some of those conversations before to say, you know, in 11 years, that’s not something that we’ve ever dealt with the church… Jason Britt — Right. Yeah. Nan Britt — …but, but, Hey, here’s something else that you need to think about.Jason Britt — Yeah.Nan Britt — And so I think it’s, it’s really important. I have a lot of respect for leaders who show humility in saying, Hey, I, I even admit I have some ignorance about this conversation… Rich Birch — Yeah. Right. Nan Britt — …and I’d like to invite in so ah someone, an expert in this area to help us move forward in this conversation. Yeah.Jason Britt — Yeah, that’s been the, I think that’s the, yeah, that’s what we have talked to. Again, it’s almost permission, that Nan’s right, humility and just going, okay, we don’t know what we don’t know, let’s just ask some questions. Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — But the other thing I would say is, like, we don’t have, um if you will, a room. We don’t have space. We don’t, we’re we’re for it. And I think we go back to our early days, neither did we. You know It was all inclusion-based and all still is before we had a safety room, if you will, or before we had, what do you call it?Nan Britt — We don’t call it a safety room. It’s just a buddy space. Jason Britt — Buddy Space. Like like you know if there’s a kid that’s having an issue or or you know something. We didn’t we have a little more now than we did, but back in the day, it was more inclusion and just start where where you’re at. Nan Britt — Yeah. Jason Britt — You can do something.Nan Britt — That’s right.Rich Birch — Yeah. I think that’s a good word, Jason, that I think we get way too far ahead of us. And we’re like, we and we picture 300 families and like, oh my goodness, what’s going to happen? It’s like, well, how about but we start with the two kids that are right in front of us?Nan Britt — That’s right. Jason Britt — That’s it.Rich Birch — And what can we do to support those families? Nan, you said this, I’d love to invite you in on these conversations. I’m sure there’s churches that are listening in there like I would love Nan’s help. Talk to me about the buddies network. This is a way—I love this—you guys have stepped out to try to help more churches. Talk us through what that is. How do you help churches? How can you engage with them that sort of thing.Nan Britt — Yes. I mean, you’re exactly right. That’s that’s where the idea came from, is that in our area, you know, around metro Atlanta, around Athens, we are in weekly conversations with churches of of how to start a ministry or just begin, like you’re saying, what are some easy steps, tangible ways to serve families, bring awareness to it. And so we just decided, you know, out stewarding, being a good steward of the the great work God has done at Bethlehem, the resources he’s provided for us that we love. Nan Britt — Jason and I, we, we, our big kingdom church people. We love partnering with churches. We love knowing other pastors. And, and so that’s been exciting for me just to work with other churches and share with them. I think we’ve learned so much at Bethlehem, like Jason said, from being very small with no budget, no space, being very conservative in, in what we’ve done to now having a huge ministry, a large ministry, having great space. Jason Britt — Right.Nan Britt — I think we just have learned so many ways to be able to equip churches. And and that’s really the heart behind it. And so we’ve done this last year, really, I have I’m leading that and and kind of initiating that. We just have put in quarterly quarterly lunches if you are nearby and close to us to join us for that. Quick things to your inbox that give ideas. We share our resources. We’re where we don’t want you to recreate something, spend time on that.Bethlehem Church — Because like you said, a lot of that a lot of times it’s kids’ ministries, people who already wear a lot of hats at their churches. I mean, they are overwhelmed. They are leading kids’ ministry. We have some a part of our network that are family pastors, and then they have also been given this task of, hey, figure out special needs ministry as well.Jason Britt — Yeah. Nan Britt — Or volunteers. They’re not paid. So it’s our desire just to get in there and help equip. Jason Britt — Yeah. Nan Britt — And to make it fit the structure of your church. You know, every church is unique. And so ah we just want to make this tangible and easy. And so, yeah. And so we we walk alongside churches really at their own pace, you know, of what they say, hey, we need help with this. Jason Britt — Yep.Nan Britt — And in 2026, we hope to keep expanding resources and more so online that really allow churches outside of Georgia, you know, to access more resources.Rich Birch — Yeah, that which you’ve provided and we’ll link to this, the Buddies Volunteer Handbook. I thought this was great, kind of a I know I love this kind of thing. I’m always like diving deep on, wow, it’s so cool to see what people do. I love this. Talk to us a little bit about this resource. How does it fit in your… Nan Britt — Yes. Rich Birch — …like in your process with Buddies and all that?Nan Britt — Yes. For sure, you know, the first few years, like we’re saying of our ministry, that our our procedures and systems looked more like just a Word document. Rich Birch — Right.Nan Britt — You know, something that I would share onboarding volunteers of, hey, this is your role as a buddy. You know, this is what it means to serve at our ministry. This is these are the expectations. This is… And then in time, you know, we created that. It turned into a handbook, you know, a nicely you know printed handbook that that matched really what our kids ministry handbook and our student ministry handbook looked like. And so it is a great resource that that’s how we onboard volunteers and kind of their their first invitation into the ministry of we go through that handbook with them. We prioritize, hey, this is what we say is your role and what a win is in our ministry. So it goes through a lot of our our systems put around the ministry, the procedures. And what I like to share with churches is kind of what Jason was saying. Really, special needs ministry fits neatly into that that umbrella of all the systems and procedures and policies that a church already has in place for kids ministry… Rich Birch — Yeah. Nan Britt — …and student ministry, special needs ministry fits within that. And that is the way we function at our church. And so there, back when you said there really is not additional liability or additional policies for special needs ministry. So, that’s contained in our handbook. And yeah, it’s a great resource to share with our volunteers and drives the the goals and expectations of the ministry. Jason Britt — Yeah . Rich Birch — That’s so good. Nan Britt — And that’s what we share a lot with we share our handbook with churches and then our family form. Most churches are saying, hey, you mentioned the form that you give to parents.Rich Birch — Yeah. Help us understand that. Yeah. Yes.Nan Britt — Hey, can you share that with us? And we say, absolutely. Just just take our logo off of it. You put your church logo on there. Rich Birch — Yes. Nan Britt — And you just just just start using that because that’s that’s another great resource we share.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. So as we’re coming down to land, kind of a same similar question to both you. I’ll start with you, Nan. Let’s picture that you’re a leader within a church who’s got a passion for this area and is like thinking, hey, we we need to take some steps in the next, maybe the next six months, next three months to kind of move this from, hey, we’re helping a couple kids to we want to create a bit more structure there. What would you say to them to like, Hey, here are some first steps that you should be taking to try to expand this beyond something that’s informal to like, we’re trying to make this a little bit more part of what we do, not just something we’re kind of dealing with. It’s like, we’re going to actively add this.Nan Britt — Right. Yeah, I think that’s a great question. I think something immediately that churches can do is to have a conversation, you know, around kids ministry, around the team on Sundays, and essentially just to have a plan in place of, okay, what would we do if a family visited our church? And just by having a conversation and being prepared, really just allows you to welcome that family without the stress and panic on your face. Rich Birch — Sure. Right. Nan Britt — You know, of that we know it’s unintentional, but we never want a family to feel like an inconvenience or a burden or unwelcomed at our church. But simply by having a plan of okay, what would we do if a family came? And I think that that could easily be we’re going to get them checked in and they’re going to go into our kids’ ministry environments. But maybe we can have two or three extra volunteers on call that we would utilize or we might pull from our existing kids ministry classes to be a buddy for that morning for that child in the second grade class. That’s that’s pretty easy to do. But if you have already talked through that, then when a family comes, it doesn’t send you in a into panic mode.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Nan Britt — And and then, like because as we said, the parents are still there. They’re in service. You can always call them or text them with a question or a need that you might have. And then from there, I think it gives you time to put some systems in place. What that might be like is you you prioritize a Sunday morning service. If you if you offer multiple services, I always tell churches, hey, you know, pick, choose a service and build your volunteer team around one service. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Nan Britt — And then that is a service you can communicate to the community of, hey, we’re offering our buddies team at the nine o’clock service on Sunday morning. We’d love to invite you to attend at this time. That’s pretty manageable for churches rather than feeling overwhelmed of, wow, do we need to offer her volunteers at every service that we have on a Sunday? So just starting small. Jason Britt — Yep, yep. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Nan Britt — And then, like I said, an easy step is, is, getting access to a family form. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Nan Britt — And like I said, we can easily share that with you because you collect such great information that really helps you feel prepared for the hour and a half that the family’s with you on a Sunday morning.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s great. So similar question, Jason, let’s say you’re, imagine you’re a lead pastor and, you know, somebody on their team comes to you and says, Hey, we, we had this conversation as a huddle, like, Hey, what could we do? And we realized we’ve got to add some more emphasis on this. We, you know, if, if we had a family come today, oh, I’m not sure, you know, we might be able to serve one kid or two kids if they came or one or two people if they came, but we’re not, I’m not sure if we had any more than that, that we, and we’d like to add some more volunteer time. We’re not looking for money, just kind of some more emphasis. What would you say to a lead pastor who had someone come to them? How would you kind of coach them to respond to that, to a, to a leader that came with them with that kind of request?Jason Britt — Yeah, I would say just because I know how does a senior pastor would, hey, we got this, we got this. It seems like there’s always about five things pressing and and and it’s like another thing, you know. I would say see the opportunity.Rich Birch — Love it.Jason Britt — That’s what I would just go, man, the opportunity and, you know, see the opportunity for gospel presence. I mean, I think some of my favorite stories, and we don’t have time to get to them, have been families that came or brought their special needs adult or student, or and they’ve been baptized because of that, you know. So the opportunity of it, it is a communit… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Jason Britt — …of people that in the local church we are for, but oftentimes unintentionally we haven’t been prepared for or, and again, it’s legitimate and get it. I think it’s the, also there’s just great resources. Like I just got, we just came off, I mean, you know, this stuff, Rich, there’s just like there’s people who help out. We just came off of a two-year generosity initiative. And I need help thinking strategically. Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — I don’t need, you know, and and they help that. Well, there’s people like Nan. Uh, there’s people that are out there that are there to help.Rich Birch — Right.Jason Britt — And I think there’s a lot more similarities in churches with people who can help… Nan Britt — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yes. Jason Britt — …than just like I needed in the general there. That’s the same thing I would tell a pastor. Don’t be overwhelmed. See the opportunity. Nan Britt — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.Nan Britt — I would add, I think that’s key that, you know, in the same way that, like you’re saying, in the world of production or other ministries, we are familiar with contracting with people who that’s their specialty. That’s their skill. That’s their experience. I think it’s the same way in this conversation with special needs ministry. I think that is the quickest way to… Jason Britt — Yep. Nan Britt — …move along the conversation is to maybe to consider contracting with a person that that has that is a professional in this. It it it will eliminate all of those what-if questions… Jason Britt — Yep. Nan Britt — …the fear around it, and someone who knows this this ministry and knows what to do. Jason Britt — Yep. Absolutely. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Nan Britt — You know who’s not surprised by the needs of people with disabilities and special needs. So I think that for churches that And like we said, it’s it’s similar to contracting with other needs around the church.Rich Birch — Right. Good.Nan Britt — So just as quickly as you can, get someone in the conversation that is an expert and kind of knows ah you know what how to care, how to care for these kids. Jason Britt — Yep, yep.Rich Birch — So good. Well, Nan, we’ll give you the last word. If people want to get in touch with with you, with the church to talk about the network or to just just even learn more, where do we want to send them online so they can access more information, you know, that sort of thing?Nan Britt — Yes. So ah they are welcome to email me, nan@bethlehemchurch.us. I would love that to just, like I said, eat weekly, that’s really my role on our staff now is is talking and training and and just working alongside churches. So I would love to connect. And then our website is BethlehemChurch.us, which they can find our Bethlehem Buddies page. Just see a lot of great resources there and then get in touch with our staff there as well. Jason Britt — Yep.Rich Birch — That’s great. Appreciate you guys being here today. Thank you so much. And thanks for what you’re doing. Appreciate being on the show today.Nan Britt — Thanks so much. Jason Britt — Thank you.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Jeremy Baker, Lead Pastor of Elevate Life Church in Connecticut. In just over three years, Elevate Life has grown from 70 people to more than 2,000 weekly attendees, becoming one of the fastest-growing churches in the country—especially remarkable in a region widely known as spiritually resistant and unchurched. Jeremy shares the honest, behind-the-scenes story of how God has moved, and what his team has learned about loving people well, building invite culture, and helping people take meaningful steps in their spiritual journey. Is explosive growth possible in spiritually dry regions? How do churches keep the focus on people instead of preferences as momentum builds? Jeremy offers a refreshing reminder that growth is less about formulas and more about faithfulness. Humble beginnings and a clear calling. // Jeremy and his wife left a comfortable ministry role at a large church in Dallas after sensing God's call to the Northeast—one of the least churched regions in North America. With no church-planting playbook and their personal savings on the line, they launched Elevate Life with high expectations and a large marketing push. When only 70 people showed up on launch day, disappointment could have ended the story. Instead, it became the starting point. Jeremy describes the journey as a “God deal” from the beginning—marked by prayer, obedience, and a willingness to go after people rather than polish programs. Loving people from the street to the seat. // One of Elevate Life's defining values is making people feel seen, heard, and celebrated. Jeremy believes every person walks in carrying an invisible sign that says, “See me.” That belief shapes their entire guest experience. From banner-waving parking lot teams to outdoor tents for first-time guests (even in winter), the church treats arrival as sacred ground. Volunteers walk guests through the building, help with kids check-in, offer tours, and even escort people to their seats. The intentional warmth sends a clear message: you matter here. Taking people where they are. // With nearly 4,000 first-time guests in a single year, Elevate Life assumes nothing about biblical knowledge or spiritual maturity. Rather than pushing people toward instant maturity, the church focuses on meeting people where they are. Grow Track, life groups, and clear next steps help people move forward at a sustainable pace. Jeremy warns that churches often forget how far they've traveled spiritually—and unintentionally expect newcomers to keep up. Invite culture that never lets up. // Elevate Life's growth hasn't come from direct mail or massive ad budgets. Jeremy says he'll never do mailbox ads again. Instead, growth flows from a relentless invite culture. Every service, hallway conversation, life group, and ministry environment reinforces the same message: Who are you bringing? Invite cards, QR codes, social media ads, and consistent language keep invitation top of mind. Jeremy believes repetition—not creativity—is the secret. Reaching people over protecting preferences. // As the church has doubled in size, Jeremy is vigilant about guarding its mission. Growth brings new pressures—parking shortages, crowded services, limited space—but he resists shifting focus inward. If churches aren’t careful, they’ll trade purpose for preferences,. Elevate Life's mission—making heaven more crowded—keeps the team outwardly focused. Jeremy regularly reminds leaders that people are not problems to solve; they are people to pastor. A challenge for church leaders. // Jeremy closes with a simple encouragement to pastors: love people deeply, steward what God has given you, and don't lose sight of why you started. Churches don't grow because they chase growth—they grow when leaders refuse to give up on people. In regions others have written off spiritually, God is still moving—and often through ordinary leaders who simply refuse to stop caring. To learn more about Elevate Life Church, visit elevatelifect.com or follow them on Instagram @elevatelifect. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Pumped that you have decided to tune in today. We’ve got a very good conversation. I’m really looking forward to leaning in and learning from this leader and the story that God’s been writing at his church in the last two and a half years.Rich Birch — Elevate Church in Connecticut has grown from 70 people to over 2,000 on a weekly basis. It’s been named one of the fastest growing churches in the country. I love their mission and purpose is really simple: making heaven more crowded. Today we’ve got Jeremy Baker with us. He is the lead pastor. Jeremy, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Jeremy Baker — Thank you so much for having me. So excited. And what a great privilege and honor to be on on live with you today. So thank you.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’m excited that to unpack this story a little bit. It is not normal for a church to grow from 70 to 2000 in any part of the country, but even more so in Connecticut. I can say as a guy who served in New Jersey, I’m Canadian, you know – don’t hold that against against me. Jeremy Baker — Let’s go.Rich Birch — So I understand the spiritual context that you’re in a little bit. But why don’t you unpack the story? Kind of tell us a little bit what’s gone on over these last couple of years. For folks that don’t know, tell us about the kind of spiritual, you know, climate in Connecticut. Talk us through those issues.Jeremy Baker — Yeah, I first of all, it’s a God deal all the way. And I know a lot of people are asking me, hey, give me some handles, what’s some formulas, what’s some how-tos.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Baker — I’m just blown away by what God’s done. And I think it’s really just the heartbeat of God is going after his people and serving the community really well. So we’re in an area, I’m 30 minutes away from Yale University.Rich Birch — Okay.Jeremy Baker — I’m not too far away from New Haven, Connecticut. I’m in in a town about 100,000 people. Rich Birch — Wow.Jeremy Baker — Matter of fact, the building is actually in between two cities. Rich Birch — Okay. Jeremy Baker — The building is divided right down in half. One half being, yeah, it’s crazy. One half being Meriden, one half being a town called Wallingford. And so in those two cities is about 100,000 people. Rich Birch — Okay. Jeremy Baker — So three and a half years ago, I’m working at a big church in Dallas, Texas, mega-world, mega-church, on staff, XP, and the Lord just pressed on our heart, me and my wife that we’re comfortable. We’re we’re living the good life, we’re living the Dallas life, the big Texas life, and there’s more, you know. And nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with the Dallas life, the big life, the Texas life, nothing wrong with big churches – God loves this, the capital “C” church, you know. And so long story short, prayed for about a year, and we said, we’re going to the Northeast. Rich Birch — Wow. Jeremy Baker — This is where my wife is originally from, the Connecticut region, this area, actually called a little town called North Haven. And we’re going to go back up here because there’s a group of people that need the Lord. And, you know, the Northeast, New Jersey, you know, New York, Maine, Vermont, Pennsylvania, these kind of, this region up here in this New England region is ah is an unchurched region. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — There’s great people that are God-fearing people, great good Bible-believing churches, but there’s it’s not known as a Southern, you know, Christianity. Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — Like everybody goes to church in the South, but up here, it’s a little different region. So we came up here. We didn’t know how to plant a church, honestly.Rich Birch — Love it.Jeremy Baker — I’m just giving you all the honest, the the real, real.Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — I wish I could tell you that I wrote the book on it and I know how to do everything perfectly. Rich Birch — Love itJeremy Baker — But i could I could tell you every horror story what not to do, you know? So we we pulled out our life savings and we started a church and we had 70 people on our launch date. Rich Birch — Wow. And we put about $100,000 into our launch date thinking we would have… Rich Birch — Wow. Jeremy Baker — …you know, 800 people, a thousand people are going to show up. We put mailers in everybody’s mailbox. So long story short, we had 70 people. Rich Birch — Wow, wow.Jeremy Baker — And then out of that, we have just been going after our city. Out of that, we have just been reaching people, inviting people to God’s house, serving our community, clean days, outreaches, food ministry, backpack giveaways, Christmas, Thanksgiving. I mean, just every major holiday, we have just attacked our community. And this last week, we had over 2,400 people in attendance.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Praise God. Jeremy Baker — And and so in three and a half years, it’s just been wild. And there’s so much in that story I could tell you.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Baker — But that’s kind of been from where we were, planning humble beginnings. God, what do you want to do? And it’s not about the size of a church, as you know, because I know there’s great churches out there that are ministering very well to the size that is in their community, and they’re doing a really good job shepherding people, caring for people.Jeremy Baker — But it’s just, you know, I always believe, God, let me not mess this up. Lord, if I can steward this well, you’ll keep bringing them to me. And so we have a brand new team, new staff. I like to call us the the misfits of Toy Island, if I could use the if i could if i could use the Christmas kind of you know… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeremy Baker — …thought process, you know. We don’t know what we’re doing, but we’re loving people well. We’re serving. We’re discipling to the best of our ability. We’re preaching the full gospel now. I don’t want people to think that we’re not preaching the gospel.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — We’re preaching from Genesis to Revelations, and we’re preaching the whole Bible, the whole council. And but that’s kind of that’s a little bit of kind of like how the beginning happened, but it’s been wild.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Jeremy Baker — It’s been wild, man.Rich Birch — Yeah. And I know, you know, we know that, well, all of our churches, you know, they they have the impact they do because God chooses to use what we’re doing at the end of the day. It’s got nothing to with us. It’s got everything to do with him. Jeremy Baker — Right. Rich Birch — But he is choosing to use something that you’re you’re doing. He’s clearly blessing something. He’s working through something. When you step back and think about the last couple of years, two or three years, What would be some of the things that you’ve seen him use that are like, hmm, this seems to be a part of the equation of what he’s pulling together.Rich Birch — And that’s not from a like, hey, we want to replicate all this, but it’s like, hey, here’s here’s your story. This is what God seems to be using in your context to reach your people. What would be some of those things that bubble up to your mind?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, great question. I would think the first thing for us is people want to be seen. People in the world that we live in today want to know that someone cares about them, that someone loves them.Jeremy Baker — We like to say it around here. We have little cultural sayings. We see you. We hear you. We celebrate you. We see you, we hear you, we celebrate you. I love what Mary Kay said, the the makeup organization. She had a quote, and if I can quote her right, she said, everybody has an invisible sign around their neck that says, see me. Jeremy Baker — And and I think it’s important. I think it’s real important that we see people the way God sees them. You know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe in him. So the whole thing is about seeing people the way God sees them, not seeing them through their lens of brokenness or through the lens of maybe a divorce or the pain or the regret or the shame. No, we got to see them through the grace and the mercy of God, through through what Jesus wants to do in their life. So we’re just loving people really well from the street, if I could say it like this, because I know it’s been said in church conferences, but from the street to the seat, we’re just loving people really well, you know, how to how to make people feel like they’re the big deal. Rich Birch — Right, right.Jeremy Baker — You know, that God does love them. So that would be probably one thing that I would say would kind of be our bread and butter of just loving people well… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeremy Baker — …helping people find hope, especially in a season like this, you know, holiday season. It’s like, a you know, a lot of people are hopeless and we need to give hope to people. And so that would be a big thing. Jeremy Baker — I say think the second thing I would say is taking people on the spiritual journey where they’re at. You know, I’ve been a ministry for 30 years. My dad’s a pastor. So I’ve been in church for a long time. And I think sometimes, you know, we can as as as church kids, or if I could say it that way, or church people, we are called the shepherd. We’re called to minister. We’re called the guide. But sometimes we want people to be on the road that we’re on. And and they don’t realize… Rich Birch — That’s so true. Jeremy Baker — …we have we have we have been on this journey for a long time. There’s been a lot of going to the mat, dealing with us, God doing a work in us. Like David said in Psalms 51, Lord, create me a clean heart. Help me help me grow, Lord, as a leader, as a mature, you know. Put away childish things. I, you know, I want to grow. So so we’re taking people on their journey. Okay, you’re new to faith, so we need to start you on this road or this path, if I could say, you know. Oh, you’ve been walking with God for three years. Okay, we’ve got to make sure that you know some of the foundations, some of the basics. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Baker — You know I think that’s been some of our greatness of helping people stick, find community, be a part. So those are, I think those are two things. Understanding people need to be seen. And the second one is taking them on a journey of where they’re at, you know?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I love that. The let’s let’s unpack that a little bit. I’d love to start with the loving people well thing – a little bit more detail. Jeremy Baker — Yeah.Rich Birch — When you say that, so what does that mean from the street to the seat? How are you how do you feel like, oh, this is something that Elevate Life’s doing well to love people as they’re coming, as they’re arriving, as they’re a part of what’s going on at the church?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so great. So for me, it’s going to be guest experience. Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — What does it look like when people pull on your parking lot? You know, do we have parking lot – we don’t call them attendants. We call them parking lot banner wavers. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Love it.Jeremy Baker — They’re waving a banner, a blessing over your car. Now, it’s going to be a little charismatic a little bit. There’s going to be a little bit of a, you know, my background is, you know, is I’m I’m very very energetic, very enthusiastic…Rich Birch — Sure.Jeremy Baker — …passionate as a leader. So I want people to know it’s a big deal that you’re on property today. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Baker — It’s a really big deal that you brought your family, that you showed up. You didn’t have to show up. You didn’t have to be here. You could have stayed home. You could have did what you wanted to do, but you gave God some time today. And so what we do is we we we we really pray that as the tires hit the parking lot, that miracles take place in people’s lives.Jeremy Baker — Whatever that miracle might be, miracle of salvation. A miracle of of of a mindset change, a miracle of restoration. So banner wavers in the parking lot, loving on people. Jeremy Baker — We have a team called the Impact Team that’s in the parking lot. They’re what we call our first time guest experience connection moments. So when they when there’s tents outside, of course, even in the winter, we got tents outside with heaters outside. You know, we just got four inches of snow the other day, but they’re still outside.Jeremy Baker — So the commitment from our servant leaders is there. The commitment from our staff is there, just to make people seen and feel loved. So as they’re walking into the property, if they’re a first time guest, our team has been trained how to identify a first time people, even with the amount of people that are coming. And they’ll walk up to them and just say, so glad you’re here.Jeremy Baker — Is this your first time? No, I’ve been here for about a month. OK, do you need anything? How can I serve you? How can we help you? Do you know how to check your kids in? Or, hey, can i can I walk you to your seat? I mean, we literally have a team over 100 plus people that are helping people walk into a building… Rich Birch — Wow.Jeremy Baker — …get a free get a get a cup of coffee, find them to their seat, make them feel loved. If they’re new, hey, let me take you on an experience tour is what we call it, an experience tour. You’re walking into a brand new building. You’ve never been into the building before. You know, lot of churches, it’s all love, but might not have the right signage of communication of where restrooms are, kids check-in nurseries, nursing mother’s room, you know, special needs, whatever. So we have these people that go and walk these people through this building. And, you know, we don’t have a large building. We’re we’re adding on to our building, but we’re about 28,000 square feet.Rich Birch — Okay.Jeremy Baker — And so even in that size, you know, you can get lost in a building that size… Rich Birch — Right, right. Jeremy Baker — …you you know, especially where there’s hallways and doorways you don’t know. And so we’re having people walk through. And then people walk up all the way to their seat.Rich Birch — Wow.Jeremy Baker — And then when they’re in their seat, we got people that are on the host team, which we’d call modern day ushers. We call them host team members. They just walking up to them. Hey, good to see you. How you doing? Good morning before service starts.Rich Birch — I love that. Yes.Jeremy Baker — So we’re creating this we’re creating this interaction culture. Now, if you’re introverted, I’ll be honest with you, it’s going to be hard. It’s going to be hard, man.Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — It’s going to be hard. If you’re more introverted in your personality and your style, you’re going to feel overloaded at a level, you know what I’m saying?Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — So so that that’s some of the feedback we get.Jeremy Baker — Like, hey, I love the church… Rich Birch — It’s a little much. Jeremy Baker — …but I got 18 people talking to me, man, before I even find a seat. And it’s like, I get it, I get it, I get it. But, you know, we just want you to feel seen and feel loved. So that’s part of what we do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very cool. I love that.Jeremy Baker — Yeah.Rich Birch — Super practical. That’s cool. And then I like this idea of talking to people where they’re at. I think that can be a concern we run into or a it’s like we’re not even aware that in our our churches we’re we’re we’re using language or or we’re assuming everyone’s at a certain place. What does that look like for you at Elevate Life? How are you helping? Because that’s a lot of people in a short period of time to both get to know and then also try to communicate in a way that actually connects with where they’re at. Talk us through what do you mean by that when you say we’re trying to talk to people where they’re at in their spiritual journey?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so if it so if you’re new, let me just give you context. This year alone, in 2025, we’ve had 3,919 first-time guests walk through our doors. Rich Birch — That’s great.Jeremy Baker — This year alone. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Baker — So for us, we know as a new plant, as a new church, we’re going to have to really walk people through this spiritual journey. Some of these people maybe have some form of God, maybe they have been walking with God. Maybe they’ve been out of church since, you know, let’s just talk about pre, know, after or during COVID. Maybe they haven’t been back to God’s house because that’s really real in the Northeast. Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — I mean, some people are just now coming back to church in the Northeast that have not been in church for the last four years. You know, it’s like, oh yeah, I’ve been out of church for about three and a half years and I’m just now getting back into the rhythm of getting back in my faith.Jeremy Baker — So there’s so much I can talk about that. Like how how do we make our services flow? Like I always introduce introduce myself, hey, my name is Jeremy, and I have the privilege to pastor this church, and I just want to say welcome. If if this is your, you know, 52nd welcome this year or if this is your first welcome, I just want to say welcome. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — Because i want I want them to know that we’re real, that we’re authentic, and we want to help them on their spiritual journey. Rich Birch — It’s good.Jeremy Baker — So we offer stuff like, you know, first-time, you know, decision, if you made a first time decision, let’s go, let’s go into, you know, who is Jesus? You know, what does Jesus, you know, want to do in your life? So there’s, there’s, there’s classes, there’s paths that we offer there. Jeremy Baker — Grow track, you know, we have grow track that we offer every month. Hey, hey, won’t we want to teach you a little bit more about faith, who Elevate Life is, what, what our mission is, what our vision is, what, what the values of our church is. And so we walk them through that.Jeremy Baker — And then, and then what we have is we have life groups. And these life groups are from all different walks. Deep dive of Revelation, deep studies of the Old Testament. Or, hey, we’re just going to go through the book of John. We’re just going to start in John 1 and learn what Jesus, you know, who Jesus is. And we’re to start there. Or if you’re more intellectual, we’re going to go a little bit deeper. You know, so we we we we we have these these life groups, we call them, because we’re Elevate Life. So we call them life groups. We want we want these groups to bring life to people.Jeremy Baker — And and so ah so we just we we have people, we encourage them to sign up, to get involved. That’s our conversations always in the hallways. Hey, are you are you serving on a team? Are you in a life group? Here’s here’s why. The goal for me is not just gathering large crowds. The goal for me as as a shepherd, I would just say as ah as as the lead pastor now in this season of my life, is is to help people develop spiritually… Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Yeah, definitely. Jeremy Baker — …to help people find their personal walk with God, not just come and hear a good word. You know, motivating, it’s inspiring, it’s it’s helpful. Yes, it’s practical. I’ve got handles I can live my life by throughout the week. But my my heart is, don’t just take a Sunday and give it to God, but give God every day of your life. Rich Birch — So good.Jeremy Baker — You know, sometimes we just turn the surrender switch on on Sunday, not realizing the surrender switch needs to be on every day of the week.Rich Birch — Amen. So true.Jeremy Baker — So I’ve got to turn that surrender switch on every day. And just like you a natural thought when you turn the light switch on when you’re in the room, you turn it off when you leave the room. Well, a lot of people look at church that way. I’m going to turn my surrender switch on today. It’s Sunday. I’m going to go to God’s house. And then on when they leave Sunday, they leave away the property. They pull away. The surrender switch turns off. And I think that’s where the consumer mindset, especially in the Western part of the country… Rich Birch — Sure. Jeremy Baker — …you know, we have gotten, you know, we’re, we’re inundated with consumerism. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — And so, and so how, do how do we help people really become disciples of of Christ? So the second part of our mission statement is making disciples that follow Jesus. So the goal is making heaven more crowded, but making disciples that follow Jesus.Rich Birch — So good. That’s great. Let’s talk about a bit like up the funnel a little bit, like at the top end, where, how are people learning about Elevate Life? You talked about when you launched, you did a bunch of marketing stuff. Has that continued to happen? Is this just like, you’re really good at Facebook ads? Help me understand. What does that look like? How, why is the church growing?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, great question. I personally, I will never do an ad in a mailbox again. That was $25,000 that I think one person showed up, and then we had a bunch of them ripped up and mailed back to us and told us to never mail them and again. It’s the funniest story.Rich Birch — Wow. Yes.Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so it’s it’s all good. It’s it’s it’s this is not the South. I’m a Texas guy, and I’m living in the New England region, and it’s it’s night and day, you know.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Jeremy Baker — So what we have done really well at, I believe, causes some of the growth to happen is two things, is every week we’re encouraging people to invite somebody. That is a part of our culture. Invite culture. Who you bringing? Who do you know that’s far from God that needs the Lord right now? Who do you know that’s far from Him that you know that that you could bring?Jeremy Baker — So then the second thing is we’re doing really good social media ads. We’re spending about $1,500 a month on social media ads. And our team has done a phenomenal job. And all my team is 19, 20, 21, and 22-year-old young men and women that are running all of my social media.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.Jeremy Baker — I’m 50. I want to act like I’m current. But I’m not. You know, there’s things I don’t, I’m not adverse in. There’s things that are constantly changing with technology.Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah, sure.Jeremy Baker — And and and I just got to trust this younger generation.Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — And they have done a phenomenal job.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — That’s been one of our huge success for us to put us on the map in this region, to put us, make us aware.Rich Birch — Let’s pull it, but pull apart both of those. When you say you’re encouraging people every week, so you’re like ringing the bell that I want to hear churches to hear more of. You’re inviting people every week to invite their friends. Give us a sense. What does that look like? How are you doing that every single week? What’s that look like?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so part of that is in our services. It’s in language. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Baker — You know, we always say, you know thank you for being here this morning. We pray that you have brought somebody with you. And then at the end of our service, we’re saying, hey, don’t forget to invite somebody back next week. So we’re always saying that in our language. So it’s become part of our our culture. It’s become part of of who we are as a church. We are a bringer church. We are an inviting church. We are a reach the lost church. We are the great commission. Because the goal for us is not just giving information, but we’re hoping that the people will receive the information that causes some type of revelation in their own spirit that leads them to the Great Commission. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeremy Baker — Because we want them to be a part of what Jesus said. He you know he said in in Matthew 10, he goes, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. You know. Pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send more laborers. So we are we are Ephesians 4, equipping the church to do the work of the ministry. We are we have to encourage people to build the local community of the church, the local house of God. And so that’s part of our language in our hallways. We have really practical things. We have invite card stands everywhere. Invite card stands everywhere. So simple. We have QR codes. You can scan. You can download all kinds of invite information. Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — You can invite our service times. So really practical steps like that have really helped us. And then in our life groups, it’s in it’s being said. In our midweek services, it’s being said. We do eight services a week. So that’s what we’re doing right now, eight services a week. And and and so in every service, it’s just been indoctrinated. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — It’s been just repetition, you know, over and over and over. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Baker — And then And I think that’s a big part of why God’s allowed us to… Honestly, I don’t know church any other way. Rich Birch — Right. Sure.Jeremy Baker — I personally don’t know church any other way. I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer.Rich Birch — I don’t know about that.Jeremy Baker — I’m just I know I’m just appreciate the love. I mean I I’m a guy who barely graduated from seminary. I barely graduated, you know. I was like everybody looked at me, all the professors, like, oh, man. I hope you make it. You know, it’s like, it’s like one of those guys, it’s like, I just, I just love people well. And I want people to know Jesus. I mean, Jesus changed my life. I mean, he changed my life. He, he did something in me that no one ever has ever done or no one could ever do. And my life is I’m indebted to him.Jeremy Baker — I’m I’m living my whole life for him. That’s why 30 years of working through whatever I’ve got to work through in ministry and working through stuff as a as a young man, now as an older man. I’ve just stayed the course, stayed faithful. Not perfect, but stayed faithful, step moving forward every season of my life. And so I just love people well, and I think people hear the heart of that through our pastoral team, through our elders. Rich Birch — Sure. Jeremy Baker — They hear the heart of loving people well, that we want people to find Christ. So that’s the language I think helped us in this last season, you know, really in this last season, really grow. A year ago, a year ago, this time, we only ran, not not only, it’s great, but we were around about 900 people a year ago.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s crazy.Jeremy Baker — And then it’s last year, we’ve exploded.Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — We’ve doubled our church.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — I mean, we’ve doubled. I mean, we we we have no more parking. I mean, we we we have 345 parking spots. And then two out of the five weekend experiences, because we do other services throughout the week, two out of the five weekend experiences, we have to turn people away, which just breaks my heart as a pastor because it’s like…Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Yes.Jeremy Baker — …we can’t build fast enough. We’re looking for bigger venues. Again, I could go on that, but we want to make more room. We want people to find hope. It was never about being big. I told a pastor locally, I said, and he was he was coming here to, you know, just to encourage us to keep going, which was very kind of him. But I said, pastor, it was never about being big. It’s always been about reaching the lost.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great.Jeremy Baker — It’s always been about reaching the lost.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — So I don’t know if that makes any sense.Rich Birch — It does. It does. There’s a lot there that you, that I, you know, I, I, I didn’t want to interrupt because there’s so much packed in there that I think was so helpful for people. And, you know, that singular focus on, Hey, we’re trying to reach people. I want to come back to that in um in a minute. I want you to kind of speak to, leaders on that. Rich Birch — But I want to underline one of the, it’s a simple thing that um we miss in too many churches. And I’ve done a bunch of study on invite culture and you’re doing classically, you’re doing the best behavior classically. You’ve got to keep invite in front of people. We can’t, you can’t let up the gas pedal on that one. You’ve got to keep that in front of people, make it super practical, give them tools, all that like invite card stuff, all of that super important.Rich Birch — Years ago, I was talking to a lead pastor of a church that was growing very rapidly. And this wasn’t on a podcast. We were talking sidebar and I was like, Hey, asked a very similar question. What’s God using? And he’s like, Oh, it’s a little embarrassing. I don’t want to say it. And I’m like, no, no, tell me, what do you think he’s using? And he said, well, every weekend for this last year, We put invite cards on every single chair in every auditorium for the entire year. And we told people, take those and invite people. And he’s like, I really think that that is like just the intensity…Jeremy Baker — That’s it.Rich Birch — …of we’re keeping it in front of people. We can’t let up. So I want to I want to encourage you and that and listeners. Jeremy Baker — Thank you. Rich Birch — Hey, friends, that is that is a key part of this. Talk to us about the the focus on reaching the lost or reaching people who are far from God or unchurched people. Talk talk us through that. Rich Birch — Because what what’s happening at your church, I know we’ve kind of we’ve referenced this a few times, is super unique in in, you know, New England. What would be some of the challenges that you’re facing to keeping that singular focus of reaching unchurched people, people far from God? What’s been the challenge there and how are you having to adjust and kind of keep your culture focused on that as you continue to grow?Jeremy Baker — Such a great question. I mean, such a great question. I would, man, you’re such a great question asker, if I could say it that way.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s nice. Thank you.Jeremy Baker — Yeah I mean, a great question.Rich Birch — Sure.Jeremy Baker — I would think for me, for me, I got into ministry so that people’s lives could be changed by the good news. There’s no other way there’s no other reason why I’m in ministry. I’m here because I want people’s lives to be changed the way my life has been changed. So the the thing I’m always projecting from the the the the platform that I get to walk in, the the place that I get to stand, is it’s got to be about people. That’s why Christ came. He came and he and he died on a cross so that people would find eternal life, so that people would find hope.Jeremy Baker — And so we’re always pushing that agenda from the front. And, you know, whatever said from the platform stage, whatever you want to, however you want to articulate it, is is is is being pushed for a reason, I believe. So we’re constantly pushing this from the stage. We’ve got to reach people. People are dying and going to hell every day. And this is where I think the church sometimes trips. We got enough people now. So now let’s get let’s let’s stop making it about people and let’s start making it about preferences. Rich Birch — Come on.Jeremy Baker — And I think that’s the danger that’s the danger where guys like me can, you know, I was just having an elder meeting a few days ago, and I andI was telling our elders, because now we’ve got to implement some other pathways of discipleship, some other handles to help people grow and mature faster. And I said, you can’t push maturity. Maturity takes time.Jeremy Baker — If we’re not careful, we’ll we’ll lose the vision of what got us here. And then what happens is we’ll become inward focus rather than outward focus. said, I’ve seen it, guys. And I was talking to my elders. and I was just opening up my heart to them. I said, I’ve seen us do this. I’ve been a part of big churches where now it’s about the building. It’s about the butts.Rich Birch — So true.Jeremy Baker — It’s about the budgets. It’s about, you know, I’ve seen that. And I’m like, let us never lose the very thing that God’s allowed us to be a part of in in this season. Rich Birch — Yep, so true.Jeremy Baker — I never woke up one day and said, hey, let’s go and have one the fastest growing churches in America in the New England region. I woke up one day said, God, I’m comfortable. And I don’t want to be comfortable anymore. Rich Birch — So good. Jeremy Baker — I want you to use my life for the rest of my life until I see you to bring an impact in this region, whatever region that you send me. He sent us to the Northeast. Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — He sent us back home to where my wife was from. And so that’s our prayer. And I want to keep the main thing the main thing. I don’t want to drift because there is a difference between, there is a difference between preferences and then and then purpose, you know. The purpose of Elevate is to make heaven more crowded. The purpose of Elevate is to make disciples that follow Jesus. The purpose is to reach our community, to make an impact. But but if you’re not careful, you’ll you’ll get you’ll get satisfied with the people. You’ll settle. You’ll get complacent. We got enough people now.Jeremy Baker — But what if but what if God really wants to change? What if God, this is my question I’ve been wrestling with, and maybe maybe you have answers for me, but I’ve been wrestling with this question in my own spirit. Like, is it possible that one church could really change a community? Is it possible that one church could, God could use a church, a group of people. Not not I’m not talking I’m not talking about domination. I’m talking about just a group of people that are passionate about making heaven more crowded, that God could use a group of people that would change the facet of a community. Rich Birch — So good.Jeremy Baker — You know? That would that that that’s the that’s the thing I’ve been wrestling with. Can God use Elevate Life in this region? What if God wants to use us to help Yale? What if God wants us to use us to, you know, to to to get on college campuses and see a revival, you know, at Yale University?Rich Birch — So good.Jeremy Baker — You know, and I mean, that’s an Ivy League school. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — I mean, people from all over the world go to that school. And we haven’t even, I feel like, scratched the surface. So that’s part of my my always, I got to keep the main thing the main thing. It’s got to be about people. So one of our values is, people is our pursuit. That’s what we’re, we’re pursuing people.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Jeremy Baker — And not programs, not not preferences. I got preferences. I mean, I’m sure we all got preferences. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — But I’m putting down my preference so that I can carry the purpose of the good news. I hope that makes sense.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Makes total sense. And yeah, super encouraging. And yeah, I think I think God’s placed your church in a, you know, every community across the country is an important place. There’s people all over the world that need Jesus, obviously, but I i don’t think you’re, I think it doesn’t, it’s not surprising to me that the Northeast is a place that is, some call it a spiritually dead or spiritually dry part of the country, while at the same time, it is of global significance in a lot of different ways. Like the the communities that you’re serving are are different than other parts of the kind country from an influence point of view. You place like Yale, it’s not just another university.Jeremy Baker — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know. And so I think God’s placed you there for a real specific reason, which I think is you know, super encouraging. Well, this has been a a great conversation, Jeremy. I just want to encourage you, thankful that you would come on today and help us kind of peek behind the curtain a little bit. As we land today’s episode, any kind of final words you give to church leaders that are listening in to today’s conversation?Jeremy Baker — You know, the only thing I would encourage church leaders is my my my thing I always tell pastors and and people that I am connected with always is just make it about people. Make it about people. And I’ll say it this way. It’s not problems to be solved. It’s people to be pastored. It’s not problems to be solved. It’s people to be pastored. Sometimes pastors, and I get it because I’m talking to myself, sometimes we make people the problem, and the people are not the problem. The people are the purpose of why we do the pastoring. That’s why we do what we do. That’s why we do shepherding. Jeremy Baker — So, you know, when you’re dealing with when you’re dealing with people, it’s messy. It can be hurtful. There’s there’s different things that come with that, and we could list a thousand things in that. But I would just say, just love people well to the best of your ability. Give them grace. Give them mercy. Jeremy Baker — If they leave your church and they go somewhere else, just let them know the key under the mat. We’re on the same team. We’re part of the same family. We’re all going to go to heaven to we know one day. It’s not about who’s got the bigger church or who’s better? Who’s got the better kids program or who’s got ah the more youth? It’s not about any of that. It’s about just trusting God with what he’s given us stewardship over and in stewarding that really well and just loving the people that God brings.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Pastor Jeremy, appreciate you being on today.Jeremy Baker — Thank you.Rich Birch — If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online to connect with you guys and kind of follow your story a little bit? I would encourage people to follow your Instagram. So where can we find that and your website and all that? Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so our website is elevatelifect.com, elevatelifect.com, and that would be the same for our Instagram. And so thank you so much for having me. ‘m very grateful, and thank you for your time.Rich Birch — Thanks so much. Take care.

Leading Into 2026: Executive Pastor Insights Momentum is real. So is the pressure. This free report draws from the largest dedicated survey of Executive Pastors ever, revealing what leaders are actually facing as they prepare for 2026. Why staff health is the #1 pressure point Where churches feel hopeful — and stretched thin What worked in 2025 and is worth repeating Clear decision filters for the year ahead Download the Full Report Free PDF • Built for Executive Pastors • Instant access Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re wrapping up our conversations with executive pastors from prevailing churches to unpack what leaders like you shared in the National Executive Pastor Survey. Today we're joined by Shayla McCormick, executive leader at Coastal Community Church in Florida. Coastal is a rapidly growing multisite church with three locations, consistently ranking among the fastest-growing churches in the country. Shayla serves alongside her husband and brings deep operational insight shaped by leading a large church with a remarkably lean staff. In this conversation, Shayla helps unpack one of the most pressing themes from the survey: how churches hire—and why so many find themselves hiring the same roles over and over again. She challenges leaders to rethink staffing through the lens of multiplication rather than pressure relief. Why churches keep hiring the same roles. // According to the survey, churches continue to prioritize familiar roles—especially NextGen and support positions—even as ministry contexts change. Shayla believes this pattern often comes from reactive hiring. When attendance grows, volunteers feel stretched, systems strain, and leaders feel pain. The quickest solution is to hire someone to relieve pressure. But Shayla cautions that hiring to relieve pain is different from hiring to build capacity. When churches skip the discernment step—asking what this season truly requires—they repeat the same staffing patterns without addressing root issues. Relieving pressure vs. building capacity. // Shayla draws a sharp distinction between doers and equippers. Doers add short-term relief by completing tasks, while equippers multiply long-term impact by developing others. Coastal intentionally prioritizes hiring equippers—even when that means living with short-term discomfort. Her leadership philosophy flows directly from Ephesians 4 – the role of leaders is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. The courage to make the “big ask.” // Shayla challenges the assumption that busy or successful people won't serve. Too often, leaders say no for people before ever asking. At Coastal, high-capacity professionals—business owners, executives, retirees—serve in everything from parking to finance. The key is matching people's gifts with meaningful responsibility and inviting them with confidence. A radically lean staff model. // Coastal averages around 5,000 in weekly attendance with just 25 staff members, an unusually low ratio. This isn't accidental—it's strategic. Shayla explains that Coastal has built a high-capacity volunteer culture where unpaid leaders carry real responsibility. Staff members exist to equip and empower those leaders. This approach requires more upfront investment in training and coaching, but it produces sustainable growth without constant hiring. The risk of overstaffing. // Overstaffing creates more than financial strain. Shayla warns that it can lead to lazy culture, misaligned expectations, and long-term instability. Churches that staff heavily during growth seasons often face painful decisions when momentum slows. Without a strong culture of equipping, ministries become staff-dependent rather than leader-driven. Shayla encourages leaders to steward today with foresight—preparing for future seasons, not just current demand. When hiring is the right move. // While Coastal resists reactive hiring, Shayla is clear that hiring still matters. For example, Coastal recently decided to add staff in Kids Ministry—not because volunteers were failing, but because the kids pastor needed freedom to focus on strategy, family connection, and leader development. The new role removes task-based pressure while also serving as a developmental pipeline for future campus launches. The goal isn't to replace volunteers—it's to free equippers to multiply more leaders. Mission over position. // As Coastal grows, Shayla emphasizes a culture of mission over position. Roles evolve as the church evolves. Using metaphors like scaffolding and rotating tires, she reminds leaders that some roles exist for a season—and that rotation is necessary for long-term health. Leaders regularly ask: Who are you developing? Who's next? This mindset ensures the church can grow without being dependent on specific individuals. Starting points for stretched teams. // For leaders feeling perpetually tired despite added staff, Shayla offers simple coaching: eliminate work God never asked you to do, clarify expectations, and require every leader to develop others. Growth doesn't come from adding people—it comes from multiplying leaders. To learn more about Coastal Community Church, visit coastalcommunity.tv or follow @coastalchurch on Instagram. You can also connect with Shayla at @shaylamccormick. Watch the full episode below: Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they're reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you've been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We are in the middle of these special episodes—I’ve been loving these—around really responding to your survey. We did a National Executive Pastor Survey. It’s the largest survey I can say that I’m aware of, of this, where we get out and talk to executive pastors across the country and really ask them, how’s it going in their church? What are they feeling? What are they learning? To really take a litmus test of where things are at. Rich Birch — And then what we’re doing is pulling in some incredible… leaders to help you wrestle through with some of the findings. And I’m excited, privileged, really, to have Shayla McCormick with us today. She’s with an incredible church called Coastal Community Church, a multi-site church with, if I’m counting correctly, three locations in Florida. It started in September 2009, not that long ago, and they’ve repeatedly been one of the fastest growing churches in the country. She serves with her husband at this church, and this is an incredible church. You should be following along with Shayla and with the church. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Shayla McCormick — Thank you so much, Rich. I’m glad to be back and excited just to, you know, share with everybody just some insights and things that that I’ve learned along the way too.Rich Birch — Nice. This is yeah super fun to have you on again. And you should go back and listen to back episode that Shayla was on was one of our best of last year. Super helpful. So you’re going to want to lean in on that.Rich Birch — Now, when I saw some of the results from the survey, friends, I’m letting you behind the curtain. We looked at a couple different you know things and I sent them out to these friends and I said, hey, you pick whichever one you want. And I was really hoping that you would pick this one because I really think that you’ve got just so much to offer to this. So let’s, I’m going to unpack this a little bit. Shayla McCormick — Yeah.Rich Birch — So one of the questions we asked was, ah you know, there’s all these different roles that people are hiring. And for years, in fact, I actually thought about maybe not doing this question this year, because basically the order is pretty similar that people come back every year. But what we’ve seen from 2023 to 2024 is that particularly support roles, this idea of support roles that churches are out looking for those has grown significantly, 12 percentage points in those three years. Other roles like NextGen remain consistently at the top. You know, Outreach ranks the lowest at like 9 to 12 percent, which breaks my heart as a former outreach pastor. I was like, ah, people are not thinking about those things. Rich Birch — So today what I want to do is unpack this idea around what are who are we hiring for? What difference does it make? We know as an executive pastor listening in, I know that many of you are are kicking off this year thinking about, hmm, who should we be hiring? What should that look like? And really this tension that we all face with you know, being understaffed and overstaffed. How does all that work together? So I’m really looking forward to having your input on it.Rich Birch — Why do you think churches continue to hire for essentially the same roles as we see year in, year out, Shayla, why do we see that? Even as ministry changes, it’s like we find ourselves having the same conversation. Where are the kids ministry people? Where are the support roles people? Shayla McCormick — Yeah. Rich Birch — Why do we find ourselves in these same conversations?Shayla McCormick — Yeah, honestly, I think a lot of times as church leaders, like we repeat roles because we haven’t we haven’t really honestly just kind of stopped long enough to really go, what does this season actually require? Rich Birch — That’s good.Shayla McCormick — I think a lot of times what we do is we hire to almost relieve pressure but not really build capacity. And so I think we repeat roles because like kids ministry, right? That’s always a place where you have growth, you have kids, you have to staff a lot of volunteers. It’s a lot of administrative work. And, you know, sometimes I think we can tend to go, Hey, I want to relieve pressure on this. And so we end up trying to to put somebody in a seat and then we end up over hiring. And a lot of, a lot of us hire when it hurts, right? When, okay, attendance is growing, volunteers are tired, systems are breaking, A leader is overwhelmed.Shayla McCormick — And we end up, I think, making these desperation hires rather than hiring to actually build capacity… Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Shayla McCormick — …so that we can continue to grow. And so I think a lot of times our mindset kind of subtly shifts from, I mean, Ephesians 4, right? You equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And it sometimes our mindset shifts from equipping the saints to to almost replacing the staff role or the saints role with a staff member.Shayla McCormick — And it can tend to just, you can be overstaffed. And then that puts pressure financially and all, you know, like so much, but we just continue to repeat the process. Because again, we hired to relieve pressure instead of build capacity and we’re not really sitting… Rich Birch — Yeah, I would love to unpack that. Shayla McCormick — Yeah. Rich Birch — I think there’s so much there. So how are you discerning or how, you know, if a church calls you up and is asking you discern really between those two, like, Hey, I’ve got maybe I’ve got an operational problem. I’m trying to relieve pressure using the language you do. You were saying versus like building capacity for the future, which inherently sounds like to me, if I’m choosing to build capacity, I’m going to live with some pain in the short term is what I hear in that. Help me discern what that, what that looks like. How how do you work that out at, you know, at, at Coastal?Shayla McCormick — Yeah, I think we we are always looking for equippers, for multipliers. We ask the question very consistently, is this a doer or is this a leader? And not that doers are bad. Doers can actually, they can help you add capacity because it relieves the stress or the pain on a leader, right? Because you have somebody doing stuff, but equipers actually, they multiply. And so when I’m a growing church, if I continue to hire doers, then I’m just like, I’m solving a temporary so solution essentially, or a temporary problem, because at some point those things are going to go away.Rich Birch — Right.Shayla McCormick — But what, what the approach that we’ve taken is the Ephesians 4, you know, you equip the saints for the work of the ministries. And I think a lot of, lot of the times we actually neglect almost our volunteer base. And we lean heavily on our volunteers, our, We average probably 5,000 in weekend attendance, and we have about 25 staff members. And that is not a lot of staff for…Rich Birch — That’s insane. That to me, that is… Friends, I hope you heard that. So that’s like one to 200 or something like that. It’s it’s that’s all it’s Shayla McCormick — I don’t even know. It’s low.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s very low. It’s very low. Yes.Shayla McCormick — But we have a very, very, very high value in equipping our volunteers. Because there are people in our church that want to, they want to do. Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — They might be the doers that can help build capacity in a way that can help lift responsibility off people. We have people that come in that like, they’re like on staff, but they don’t get paid just because they want to come and they want to serve. Rich Birch — Yes.Shayla McCormick — And a lot of times I think we actually, say no for people because, oh, I don’t want to ask somebody to do another thing. But they’re like begging, use my gifts, use my talents. But we’re saying no for them. And then we’re going and hiring for these positions when it’s something that we could actually give away…Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Shayla McCormick — …and equip the saints for the work of the ministry. Rich Birch — Yes.Shayla McCormick — And for instance, in our kids’ ministry, we average at one of our locations probably about between 500 and 600 kids on the weekend. And I have one full-time staff member for that position right now.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Yeah.Shayla McCormick — And now we are getting ready to hire an additional person. But she has done a phenomenal job at building high-capacity leaders that are volunteers… Rich Birch — That’s good. Shayla McCormick — …that want to give their time and their energy and their resources and their passion. But I think for so many churches, we just we say no for people… Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%. Shayla McCormick — …and then we end up hiring something that we could give away in a volunteer capacity. Now that is harder on us… Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — …because you have to you know you have to teach and equip and you know pick things up, but…Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s it’s longer term. It’s it’s not it’s not a quick and easy. Shayla McCormick — Right. Rich Birch — So I want to come back to the big ask in a second. Shayla McCormick — Okay. Rich Birch — But I want I want to play a bit of the devil’s advocate. Shayla McCormick — Yes. Rich Birch — So I was having this conversation with a church leader recently, and we were looking at their staff, like their just total staffing. And we were actually having this conversation between, I was asking them like, hey, what how many of these people would you say are Ephesians 4 type people, equippers, people who are… Shayla McCormick — Yeah. Rich Birch — And then how many of these would be doers? Because every staff team has some doers on it. Like you have some percentage of them.Shayla McCormick — Yes, 100%.Rich Birch — When you, shooting from the hip of those 25, what do you think your ratio is on your team of equippers to doers? Because this is what this leader said to me. They were like, because I was kind of pushing them. I was like, I think you need to have less of these doers on your team. Like we’ve got to, we got to get not, I said, we’d have to get rid of them, but we got to grow some of these leaders up to become more multipliers.Shayla McCormick — Yep.Rich Birch — And they were like, well, but those people, they release my multiplying type people to do the work that they need to do. And I was like, yes, but if we don’t watch this ratio very quickly, we’ll we’ll end up with a bunch of doers on our team. So what would the ratio look like for you on your team? How do you think about those issues? Unpack that for me.Shayla McCormick — Yeah, I would I would say it’s maybe like a, I would say it’s maybe 10% that are, that are…Rich Birch — Right. Wow. Yeah. A couple, two or three, maybe four at the most kind of thing.Shayla McCormick — Yes, exactly, that are that are not the ones that I’m expecting. And even even them, I expect to go out and multiply as well. It’s it’s it’s part of our part of our conversations.Rich Birch — Yeah.Shayla McCormick — But it’s a very low percentage because for me, it again, it goes back to, those are things that I can equip other people to do… Rich Birch — Yes. Shayla McCormick — …that I can give ministry away. And…Rich Birch — Okay. So yeah, let’s talk about the big ask. Shayla McCormick — Okay. Rich Birch — So I hear this all the time from church leaders across the country and they’ll this is, this is how the conversation goes. They’re like, yeah, yeah. But you don’t know, like people in our part of the country, they’re very busy. Shayla McCormick — Yeah.Rich Birch — And like the people at our church, they’re kind of like a big deal. And like, they got a lot going on in their life. And like, This is true. You guys are in like the greater Fort Lauderdale area. This is a very, you are not like some backwoods, you know, place and you’re doing the big ask.Rich Birch — You’re saying, hey, you used it, which is you said like, hey, basically we’re saying, could you work part time for us in this area?Shayla McCormick — Yeah.Rich Birch — Have a huge amount of responsibility. How do you keep the big ask in front of people? How, how what’s that look like? Unpack that for us.Shayla McCormick — I mean, something that we talk about on our staff very frequently is, because it’s so natural to say, oh, they’re too busy, especially high capacity people. What I’ve what I’ve realized is is just a side note, but like, single moms are the most high-capacity people. They are the busiest people juggling the most things. But there are best people to come in and serve and do and all of that.Rich Birch — Right.Shayla McCormick — But they’re busy. Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — And so just because someone seems busy or successful or, you know, whatever barrier that you put in your brain, like, I think the reality is is we say no for them before we even ask.Rich Birch — 100%. 100%.Shayla McCormick — And so the conversations on our team always look like, are you saying no for them? Make the ask anyways. And a lot of times they’re like, oh my gosh, they said yes. I mean, I have people that run million, billion dollar companies serving in my parking team. You know, it’s like…Rich Birch — Right.Shayla McCormick — It’s, yeah, I mean, I you have people that are retired, very successful, business leaders that are coming in and volunteering to you know do finance things. Like it’s finding what are what are they great at and giving them purpose in it.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Shayla McCormick — And not just saying no for them because I think they’re successful or they’re too busy.Rich Birch — How much of that is, because I would totally agree, how much of that is like, like what I hear you saying, it’s like a mindset issue for us as leaders. Shayla McCormick — Yes. Rich Birch — Like, hey, we can’t, even when we ask someone, we can say no before them in that question, right? We can be like, I don’t know if you could, well, you know, you’re real busy and I’m not sure blah blah, blah. And that kind of lets them off the hook before we even. So part of it is a mindset, but then part of it has to be like a structural thing, the way you’re structuring the roles. How do those two interact with each other?Shayla McCormick — Ask the question one more time.Rich Birch — So part of it is like our mindset are the, the, when we approach people, we’re asking them in a way that, you know, is casting vision for like, Hey, this is a huge opportunity to push the kingdom forward. But then also a part of it, I would assume is like the way we’re structuring the roles so that it it feels like, no, like we’re, we’re kind of, it is a big ask. Like, it’s like, we’re giving them enough responsibility and all that sort of thing. How do those interact with each other when you’re asking someone, when you’re making a big ask like that?Shayla McCormick — I mean, I think most of what I’m talking, what I’m referring to is a little bit more in the the doer space or the operational space.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Okay, good. Yep.Shayla McCormick — So it’s structuring things based on almost task or, you know, responsibility that can be repeated consistently and come in and just, you know, like get it done, so that I don’t have to, again, go back to hiring somebody to do these tasks to take this off of this staff member’s plate to increase their capacity. I’m basically giving those tasks and responsibilities to a volunteer. And I think a lot of times what’s scary to me is people, us, you know, churches, their first response to problem in every situation is to hire. Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Shayla McCormick — And I think if that’s your first response, you’re going to get in, trouble you’re going to get in big trouble.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.Shayla McCormick — And you’re going end up overstaffed because you, you staffed in seasons where attendance was growing or something again, to relieve that pressure…Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, that’s good.Shayla McCormick — …not thinking multiplication. And if every solution is to hire, I don’t think the church has a staffing problem. actually think they probably have a discipleship problem. And like…Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Shayla McCormick — …and an equipping problem because the goal is to multiply apply leaders faster so that your church grows.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good.Shayla McCormick — And so if we’re not thinking multiplication and equipping, then you know I think we’re gonna get to a place where, again, we’re we’re overstaffing and we’re hiring for the same things because we haven’t learned to equip and empower and train up.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Let’s double click on that. Shayla McCormick — Yeah.Rich Birch — What risks? So overstaffing, why is that a risk? What’s the there’s obviously a financial risk there. Are there other risks that you see there that emerge when a church consistently staffs for doers or execution rather than you know invest in you know equipping and raising up the people in their church? What will be some other risks you see in that?Shayla McCormick — Yeah, I think if you’re, if you, I’m trying to figure out how to frame this. If you’re not thinking multiplication, you’re going to, you’re going to hit a point in your church where like everything isn’t always up and to the right.Rich Birch — Right. Yes. True.Shayla McCormick — And so it’s not that I’m planning for failure or the difficulty, but I’m also trying to steward what has been entrusted to me, and some of that requires foresight and wisdom… Rich Birch — Yep. Shayla McCormick — …even in my planning and my budgeting. And so if one season I’m staffing something in growth, the next season might not look the same. And I’ve because I haven’t diligently given, again, Ephesians 4, given ministry away, my role, pastor’s roles, you know, like, is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. Rich Birch — Yep.Shayla McCormick — And if I haven’t done those things properly, then I think I’m going to get a hit a season where then I’m letting staff go. Rich Birch — Right.Shayla McCormick — And, you know, or honestly, culture has become lazy because everybody doesn’t have enough to to do. And so there’s tensions and frustrations and, you know, like, and it starts you start to get a culture, I think, where you say, well, we’ll just hire for that. We’ll just hire for that. We’ll just hire for that. Instead of, okay, who’s next? Are you always developing? Like, what volunteer have you asked to do that? Have you given ministry away? And start asking our staff questions. If they’re coming to you and saying, hey, i need ah I need this role and I need this role and I need this role, the question back should be, well, who have you been developing?Rich Birch — Right.Shayla McCormick — You know, what ministry have you given away? Some of those things that just kind of push back on the solution is not always to hire somebody. Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — But what responsibility have you taken in development of people?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. in the In the kids ministry area, you had referenced this earlier, you know, a campus with 500 kids and one staff, which again is is, I know there’s lots of executive pastors that are listening in that are like, what? That’s crazy. But you are, ah you have decided to add a staff member there. What was it that kind of clicked over to say, okay, yeah, we are going to add someone. And and what are what is that role that you’re adding? And how do you continue to ensure that we’re, you know, that we keep this focus as we look to the future?Shayla McCormick — For us, my kid’s pastor is obviously very high capacity, you know, and she is a multiplier. And her greatest use of her time for me is connecting with those families, is creating opportunities for them to connect, and hiring another person is going to free her up to connect more with families on the weekends, and to spend more of her time being strategic.Shayla McCormick — And so she needs to duplicate another her on the weekends that can make sure they’re facilitating volunteers and they’re making sure people are encouraged and that teams are built and that people are showing up and schedules are being done. And it’s it’s high people, but it’s also task and responsibility that comes off of her plate that frees her up to um do the thing that she’s great at.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic.Shayla McCormick — And obviously, she’s given all that stuff away in this season, but now we’re also using that as a developmental role to potentially be a kids director at another location when we launch a location.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. There will be more, hopefully more coastal locations in the future… Shayla McCormick — Yes. Rich Birch — …and you need to you know raise those people up now you have the ability to do that. This is one way, you know, to do that as well.Shayla McCormick — Yep. Yep. Right.Rich Birch — So put yourself in a, a, say a friend calls executive pastor calls and they’re in this kind of this topic. They feel like, man, my team is perpetually stretched.Rich Birch — We, we added a bunch of staff last year and, it just didn’t help. You know, it’s like we find it sure we’re starting out the new year here and our headcount is up, but people are as tired. They’re as burnt out as they’ve ever been. And it feels disproportionate. It feels like, oh, man, like I don’t this things are not getting better. What are they missing? What what are what’s the how would you coach them? Maybe some first steps that you would kind of help them to think about what they should be doing on this front.Shayla McCormick — So I think maybe first and foremost, I might ask what what work are you doing that really God never asked you to do, first of all? I think we, we, add a lot of things that aren’t probably the best use of people’s times. And so where have we added things that we didn’t need to add that aren’t adding value… Rich Birch — That’s good. Shayla McCormick — …that can, number one, lift something off of our team that maybe they don’t just, you know, doesn’t add value. Rich Birch — That’s good.Shayla McCormick — And so that would probably be one of the first places I would start. It was like what are what are you working on that God hasn’t asked you to do?Rich Birch — Yeah, what can we streamline? What do we need to pull back? Yeah, yeah.Shayla McCormick — Exactly. And then…Rich Birch — That’s good.Shayla McCormick — …secondarily, I think I would really focus on leaning into, and this is what we’ve done in in many seasons, is we’ve leaned into two things. Number one is starting to ask our team, like, hey, who’s who’s around you that you’re developing? I need you to pick three people, you know, and just start pouring into them. I know this this isn’t a, I know this doesn’t lift the load, necessarily in the moment, but I think it can help lift it for the future. So it’s like, hey, how am I teaching my staff to look for other leaders and developing those leaders? And the other question just went away from my mind.Rich Birch — Well, that’s a great one, though. This even it’s the idea of who are the two or three people that you’re developing, that’s a powerful idea. Because I think there’s think particularly if you’re a church that’s caught in this treadmill, um there probably are people in your orbit. There are there are volunteers that would be looking for more to do to look. But but oftentimes our team, we just they don’t see those people. They don’t because we haven’t challenged them to see those people.Shayla McCormick — It’s it’s it’s honestly a question that’s a regular part of all of our teams one-on-ones… Rich Birch — That’s cool. Shayla McCormick — …that one of the questions is, who’s next? Like you should always be replacing yourself. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Who’s next? Yeah, that’s good.Shayla McCormick — And that is just a continual pipeline of people and it’s teaching them to see other people and develop people. And they know that when I come to this meeting with my leader, I need to be telling them what I did, who I’m investing in, you know, what that looks like. So that there’s like a pipeline of leadership.Shayla McCormick — And I even, like with with my own assistant, I’ll say this, she’s like, Shayla, how do I do that? It’s like I’m, she’s right, a doer, you know, she’s my assistant. But I said, honestly, the the way that there’s so much that you can give away, you can build volunteer teams to execute gift baskets when a, you know… Rich Birch — Yep. Shayla McCormick — Like there are things that we just have to teach people to start giving away… Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — …and equipping other people to do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.Shayla McCormick — And I think it’s why I don’t I don’t use like being a large church with a small staff as like a bragging thing because I I don’t think that that’s necessarily healthy long term.Rich Birch — Yes. Shayla McCormick — But I think that it’s very strategic in how we have built a volunteer culture that is very high capacity and shows up and gets it done because we simply just haven’t said no… Rich Birch — Yep. Shayla McCormick — …and we’ve always looked for somebody else to come up underneath us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I know for for me in seasons when I led in fast-growing churches… Shayla McCormick — Yeah. Rich Birch — …churches that were deemed as some of the fastest growing churches in the country, I would say to my… Now, I sat in a different seat than you were because I was never like a founding team member. Well, that’s not actually not true. That’s not actually not true. I was in one church. But but I always tried to hold my role with open hands, even with my team. Shayla McCormick — Yes. Rich Birch — I would say, listen, the the people that I don’t I don’t want to get in the way of the mission, the mission is bigger than my job and my role.Shayla McCormick — Yes.Rich Birch — And there might come a season when the ministry will outpace me and I need to be willing to step aside.Shayla McCormick — Yep. Yes.Rich Birch — And that whenever I said that, there was always like, it freaked people out a little bit. They were like, oh my goodness, what are you saying? What are you saying? But I do think that those people that got us here may not necessarily be those people that will get us there. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. And and this does not apply to any of the 25 people currently employed at Coastal Church, but help us understand…Shayla McCormick — Hey, we’ve had this conversation with all of them, so it could apply to them.Rich Birch — Oh good. Okay. Okay, good. I Okay, good. I didn’t want to you know have people listen to it at your church and be like, oh my goodness. But help me understand how you think about that as a leader, because I think that’s a real dynamic in this area.Shayla McCormick — Yeah, there’s there’s two two things, two almost analogies that that I’ll give you. One was when we were a smaller church, we were a growing church, we were a church plant, and somebody gave us some some great advice. And they said, listen, the people you start with are not going to be the people you finish with, and that’s not a bad thing. That that happens. Rich Birch — Yep.Shayla McCormick — And they said, when you are building something, there’s a phase of that building that requires scaffolding. Rich Birch — Yep. Shayla McCormick — And scaffolding serves a purpose in that season to build the structure and the walls and and all of the things, but there is a point where that scaffolding has to come down… Rich Birch — Yeah. Shayla McCormick — …in order for you to utilize that building or that space effectively. Rich Birch — Yep. Shayla McCormick — And I think sometimes that’s people in a way. Like they serve a purpose for a season, but it’s not like, it’s not like oh, now they can’t serve in any capacity or any way. It’s just that the role that they played for that season was very important. But it looks different in the next season. And we have to be okay with that if we want to continue to grow.Shayla McCormick — As we’ve grown, there was actually people probably know the name Charlotte Gambill. Charlotte Gambill has invested a lot in our team and in in our church. And she came in and did a ah session with us. And one of the things that she talked with us about is like, if you think about a a vehicle, right? And that vehicle is there to get you to the destination of where you’re going. And that vehicle has tires. And those tires have to be rotated.Rich Birch — Right, oh, that’s good.Shayla McCormick — And as a team member, you are like a tire. And what you are doing is getting that vehicle to the proper destination. But if you don’t allow yourself to be rotated, then there’s going to be a problem in getting that vehicle to the location. Rich Birch — That’s good.Shayla McCormick — And so language that we use is this is mission over position. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Shayla McCormick — And your position may change. Your position may rotate. But this is not about your position, this is about your mission. And if you’re not here because of the mission, then you’re gonna be fixated on your position.Shayla McCormick — And so our team knows that. We we talk about that very frequently, like, hey, remember this is mission over position. And we’re gonna we’re gonna rotate the tire today.Rich Birch — Yep.Shayla McCormick — But this is because this is for the mission, not because of your position. Rich Birch — Yeah.Shayla McCormick — And so we just consistently have those conversations. And if we if we don’t rotate those things, And if there’s something that’s worn out and we don’t change it, it’s going to affect the mission of where that organization is going.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.Shayla McCormick — Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s, that’s worth the price of admission right there. I think, you know, I think so many of us, um you know, people who are listening in their church leaders, they love people. They want to see them take steps towards Jesus. And, you know, we hold onto people too long or we, or we, you know, we always believe the best. We’re like, no, they’re going to get there. They’re going to get there.Rich Birch — But what would you say to a leader? You know, Give us some courage to say, hey, maybe there’s a team member we need to rotate, either find a different seat on the bus, or it might be we we need to move them off this year. Like we need to get them on a performance improvement plan and do the like, hey, you’re not leaving today, but it’s like, this has got a change. You’ve got a shift from being a doer to being an equipper. And we’re going to work on this for the next three months. But we need to see, we actually actually need to see progress on this. Give us some courage to do that. Talk us through that. If that’s the if that’s the leader that’s listening in today.Shayla McCormick — I mean, I think first of all, if you’re sensing that and you’re feeling that, you need to start having some very honest conversations. I think Proverbs is very clear when it says, bind mercy and truth around your neck. Like, we can have those truthful conversations while still being merciful. And, you know, if if you’re not clear with people, then there’s just, then there’s there’s going to be hurt, there’s going to be bitterness, there’s going to be all of those things. And so if you can just even start the conversation, if you’ve been frustrated for a long time but you haven’t said anything, honestly, it’s your fault. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Shayla McCormick — Because you’ve allowed it for so long. Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — And now that’s that’s you’ve allowed behavior to continue. So the first step I think is just giving yourself freedom to have a mercy and truth conversation, right? Of just going, hey, like I know your your heart is here I know you have vision for this organization, but there’s just some things that need to adjust. Rich Birch — Right.Shayla McCormick — And so we’re going to bring some clarity to those things that need to adjust.Rich Birch — That’s good.Shayla McCormick — And you have those conversations and then, hey, let’s check in a month from now and just here’s some action steps for you to do. And it just gives framework for like, okay, now if they’re not doing those things, you’re just like, you know, hey, do you, we asked the question, do you get it? Do you want it? And do you have the capacity to do it? Rich Birch — That’s good.Shayla McCormick — If they have, if they get it and they want it, but they don’t have the capacity, they have to change their seat, you know.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Shayla McCormick — And so for me, I think it’s really starting off with the clarifying conversation… Rich Birch — Yeah. Shayla McCormick — …if you haven’t had that. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Shayla McCormick — And in that clarifying conversation leads to either an off-ramp or an adjustment of seat.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good. I know that there are people who are listening in who that you know, like, hey, I’ve got to make a change. I have this staff member, team member that’s got to make a change. We can’t do this for another year. And even that idea of sitting down, having a you know, a truthful, but merciful conversation and doing exactly what Shayla said there. Let’s have the conversation and then document it. Shayla McCormick — Yes.Rich Birch — Here’s exactly what we talked about. Here are the three or four things that we need to see progress in the next month on. And we love you dearly, but in a month, we’re going to come back and actually ask you on that. My experience has been when you have that…Shayla McCormick — And even…Rich Birch — Yeah, go ahead.Shayla McCormick — …even asking at the end of that, like, hey, do you have any questions? Or even repeat back to me what you heard… Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — …because I want to understand how you’re receiving the information that I just gave you, because it can help you even go a little bit deeper in shaping that.Rich Birch — Clarify it. Yeah, that’s so good. Well, this has been a great conversation. Question that’s not really, it’s just kind of a broader question… Shayla McCormick — OK. Rich Birch — …about this coming year. What are the what are the questions that are kicking around in your head for this year as you look to 2026 as we come to kind of close today’s episode? What are you thinking about? Might be around this. It might be around other stuff. What are you thinking about this year?Shayla McCormick — Ooh, I was actually talking to my husband about this. We’re getting ready to go into a leadership team meeting, and the thing that’s just been sitting in my head, and this is so probably counterintuitive to large church, but it’s how can I grow smaller?Rich Birch — That’s good.Shayla McCormick — And so I’m just trying to think how can we be more intentional as we grow to make a large church feel small? And then I’m also thinking, are we building a church that can grow without us? So how, you know, is it only because of us that things are happening? Or how are we, again, ah equipping people that if we weren’t here, it would continue on? Rich Birch — I love that.Shayla McCormick — So how do I grow smaller? And would this survive without us?Rich Birch — Wow, those are two super profound questions. And they are so totally related to what we’re talking about today. Both of those, you’re only going to get to it feeling smaller. You know, that is that is the great irony of a growing church. I’ve said that to many. I didn’t I wasn’t as eloquent as you were there, but one of the, the interesting kind of tensions is when you become a church of 5,000, 10,000, 15,000, you get around those circles. Those churches are asking the, how do we be more intimate? How do we, um you know, we, okay. So we figured out how to gather crowds and, but how do we go beyond that? Right. How do we, how do we now, you know, really drive into deeper, more intimate conversations? I love that. And yes.Shayla McCormick — Systems just complicate things. Rich Birch — Yes. Shayla McCormick — So it’s like, how do you how do you simplify? I really appreciate you, appreciate your leadership and all that you’re doing and how you helped us today. And if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?Shayla McCormick — Yeah, they can follow our church on Instagram. It’s at Coastal Church or visit our website, coastalcommunity.tv. I’m not super active on Instagram, but you can follow me if you want to @shaylamccormick.Rich Birch — That’s great. Shayla, I really appreciate you being here today. And thanks so much for helping us out as we kick off 2026.Shayla McCormick — Of course. Thanks so much, Rich.

Leading Into 2026: Executive Pastor Insights Momentum is real. So is the pressure. This free report draws from the largest dedicated survey of Executive Pastors ever, revealing what leaders are actually facing as they prepare for 2026. Why staff health is the #1 pressure point Where churches feel hopeful — and stretched thin What worked in 2025 and is worth repeating Clear decision filters for the year ahead Download the Full Report Free PDF • Built for Executive Pastors • Instant access Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re continuing our conversations with executive pastors from prevailing churches, unpacking what leaders like you shared in the National Executive Pastor Survey, so you can lead forward with clarity. Today we're joined by Paul Alexander, Executive Pastor at Sun Valley Community Church and Senior Consultant with The Unstuck Group. With more than 25 years of ministry experience and nearly 15 years at Sun Valley, Paul brings a blend of practitioner insight and coaching wisdom. Sun Valley is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with six physical locations, a prison campus, and more expansion on the way. In this conversation, Paul helps unpack one of the most pressing themes from the National Executive Pastor Survey: staff health, culture, and organizational structure. Is your church clear on vision and strategy but still struggling to move forward? Do you sense tension or fatigue beneath the surface of your staff team? Paul offers candid, practical guidance on how leaders can cultivate both healthy and high-performing teams. Staff culture is often the real growth lid. // Many churches leave strategic planning sessions with remarkable clarity—clear vision, strong strategy, and actionable next steps—yet still fail to move forward. The reason is rarely theological or missional; it's cultural. Team culture and staff structure often become the limiting factor. Just as personal growth stalls when internal issues go unresolved, churches stall when unhealthy patterns persist within leadership teams. Healthy and high-performing. // Many churches swing between two extremes: high performance with little concern for soul health, or relational warmth with minimal accountability to achieve the vision. Neither honors the full call of ministry. The healthiest teams refuse to live at either end of the pendulum. Instead, they pursue a culture where people are cared for deeply while being challenged to steward their gifts faithfully toward the mission. You can't legislate health. // Health cannot be enforced through policies alone. Leaders set the tone through example, not rules. Staff watch how senior leaders manage time, rest, family, boundaries, and pressure. Late-night emails, skipped days off, and constant urgency quietly shape expectations—even if leaders say otherwise. Pastors need to lead with moral authority, not moral perfection: modeling rhythms that reflect trust in God rather than fear-driven overwork. Practical rhythms that protect people. // At Sun Valley, staff health is reinforced through intentional systems. Leaders are expected to take their days off and use vacation time; reports track whether staff actually do. Full-time staff receive sabbaticals every seven years, including non-director-level roles. Marriage retreats are offered as a gift to staff couples, recognizing that healthier marriages produce healthier ministry. These investments cost little financially but yield long-term fruit in sustainability and trust. Hire leaders, not doers. // A common staffing pitfall is hiring doers instead of leaders. While competence and skill earn someone a seat on the team at Sun Valley, long-term effectiveness depends on their ability to develop others. Staff are evaluated not on how much ministry they personally accomplish, but on how well they equip volunteers to lead. Volunteers are the heroes; staff exist to serve and multiply them. This mindset shifts ministry from bottlenecked to scalable. Structure must evolve with growth. // Churches often treat structure as fixed, but Paul insists that growing churches must restructure continually. Span of care, staffing ratios, and role clarity must be revisited regularly. He points to healthy benchmarks—such as staffing costs and staff-to-attendance ratios—as helpful indicators, not rigid rules. When leaders ignore structure, culture suffers; when structure is aligned, momentum increases. Fruit requires clarity and measurement. // Every staff role at Sun Valley includes measurable outcomes. Paul likens this to personal goals—no one expects a marriage to improve without intentional action. Clear metrics create focus, alignment, and accountability. Monthly one-on-ones blend personal care with performance review, ensuring leaders are supported holistically while still moving the mission forward. Encouragement for leaders sensing tension. // For executive pastors who feel something is “off” but can't quite name it, Paul urges them not to ignore that instinct. Growth exposes weaknesses, and structure or culture may need adjustment. Whether the issue is misalignment, unclear expectations, or misplaced roles, addressing it early prevents deeper damage later. To learn more about Sun Valley Community Church, visit sunvalleycc.com. For resources on staff health, structure, and strategy, explore theunstuckgroup.com or email Paul directly. Watch the full episode below: Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don't need more pressure—you need support. That's why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn't stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It's like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really glad that you’ve decided to tune in. We’re doing a special series here this month where we’re looking at the results of a national survey that we did of executive pastors across the country. And we’ve pulled in some leading XPs from prevailing churches to help us think through these issues. Like we’re sitting across the table, if you talk about this problem, they want to help you with that. And today it’s our honor, our privilege really to have Paul Alexander with us. He is the executive pastor at Sun Valley Church for over 10 years. He has 25 years of experience. He’s a senior consultant with Unstuck, I think for 13 years. And he’s worked with all kinds of churches on health assessment, strategic planning. Sun Valley, if you don’t know this church, you’re living under a rock. fantastic church in Arizona, six physical locations, if I’m counting correctly, plus in prison, plus online. It’s repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Paul, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Paul Alexander — Yeah, Rich, glad to be with you. Hopefully the conversation can help your listeners, man.Rich Birch — I really appreciate that. Why why don’t you fill in the picture about Sun Valley? I know we’ve had you on in the past. You should go back and listen, friends, but kind of give us the Sun Valley picture. Kind of tell us a little bit about that to set some context today.Paul Alexander — Yeah, man, been here now for almost 15 years. It’s wild to think back. When I first joined the team, it was one location, 10 acres, one exit, one entrance.Rich Birch — Wow.Paul Alexander — And, you know, there’s a lid to what you can do with that. And so we had originally went multi-site because we had to go multi-site. You know, the mission that Jesus gave the church to help more people meet him and grow up in their friendship with him. We had a lid to that with the space we were in. And so we had to go multi-site. It wasn’t cool. It wasn’t cute. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t an experiment. It was like, if we’re going to obey Jesus, we don’t have an option.Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Paul Alexander — And so over the years, we’ve had the opportunity to add new locations. And, yeah, six physical locations, one in a prison. Our next prison campus opens up Q1. We grand open our Chandler location in March, and we break ground on San Tan in May. So, yeah, man, fun times, lots of people meeting Jesus.Rich Birch — So multi-sites not dead at Sun Valley.Paul Alexander — Man, multi-site’s not dead in America. Yeah.Rich Birch — I know. And it’s true, right? It’s one of those like, people are like, oh, I don’t know. That’s an old idea. I’m like, that’s not what I’m seeing. I’m like, gosh, there’s so many prevailing churches like Sun Valley that are just doubling down. That’s that’s fantastic. Rich Birch — Well, looking forward to today’s conversation. So friends, you’ve joined us actually for within, what did we ask, two questions that were about fears for next year and or for this year, 2026, you caught me. We recorded this late in 2025.Rich Birch — And we’re talking today about the biggest fear. 24.8% of all respondents identified staff health, organizational structure, morale, succession, leadership – the people issues as a primary fear heading into this year. In fact, and then a separate question we asked about data and insight. Where are you lacking some of that? Almost 9% of respondents answered that they’re looking for better data on staff pipeline and org chart and leadership development, these sort of things.Rich Birch — When you combine them together what does that mean? Nearly three in ten surface staff related tension as a defining pressure point for 2026. And when I was thinking about this issue, I thought of no one better than Paul to pull on and to have this conversation with. So Paul, when you look at the churches across the country, you interact with a lot of churches both just because you’re a great person and through Unstuck, and you’re and Sun Valley’s a leading church and people will ask you questions all the time. Where do you think staff health breaks down the most and why is that? Why is this such a tension for us as we lead from our seats?Paul Alexander — Yeah, well, to your point, Rich, it comes up repeatedly with my work with Unstuck with churches. It’s not uncommon to do a health assessment, strategic planning with the church, and you walk out of the room and they have great clarity on vision, on where they’re going next. They have great clarity on strategy, like how they’re actually going to pull this off and do it.Paul Alexander — And yet you walk out of the room and the lid to move towards that vision, actually obey Jesus and do what Jesus has commissioned and command commanded them to do, the lid is the culture of the team. And the team culture and the team structure is what’s holding them back from going where Jesus wants them to go. Paul Alexander — Which we shouldn’t be surprised by this, frankly. that’s That’s the organizational side of how that shows up. This shows up in our own life personally. So on a micro scale, what’s preventing you and I from actually following Jesus and what He’s calling us to do in 2026? Well, it’s not Jesus’s problem. The problem is not with him. The problem usually with us.Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — The problem is with how we structure our life, our family, our time, maybe something in our own heart and in the culture of our own heart and our families.Paul Alexander — And so on on a macro scalele scale in the church, it’s not a surprise that this shows up. Most most churches have a tendency to run on a pendulum, Rich, of either being a really high performing team or a very, very healthy team. And at Unstuck, we want we want staff teams to be both very healthy and very high performing.Paul Alexander — The the problem is most churches, their staff swing through that pendulum from one side to the other. And so, and you’ve seen this repeatedly, where it’s take ground and in just do the next thing. And they’re very project oriented and destination oriented, and they have a tendency to not really care about the soul of the team, the health of the team, and they’re caring much more about the the destination they’re chasing.Paul Alexander — Or they’re sitting around looking at each other, praying for one another, kumbaya-ing together, and they’re neglecting the actual call that God’s put on their life. It’s not just a personal holiness, but to invite others people other people to know Jesus as well.Paul Alexander — And while that’s an over-exaggeration, fundamentally, that’s very true of what happens with staff teams. And so, yeah, walking away from a strategic planning with the church, you’re thinking, oh, they’ve got everything they need.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — They just don’t have the culture to pull it off. their Their staff culture is going to prevent them from going where God wants them to go. Or they’ve hired ah a lot of doers on the team and they don’t actually have leaders. So they’ve hired people to do ministry instead of lead ministry. Or they don’t really have a development pipeline. You know, they don’t have a plan to coach up and build up people that the Lord’s already entrusted to them right underneath their nose, to invite them into leadership in the church. And so, yeah, there’s some overarching things that are common.Rich Birch — Yeah, so when I saw this came out, I wasn’t surprised by this result. We’ve seen similar results in past years. But whenever I look at this fear that leaders have, I’m reminded what our mutual friend Jenni Catrin says. She talks about senior leaders are, we think our staff culture is better than it actually is. Like from our perspective, sitting as an executive pastor, lead pastor, we look around and we’re like, man, this is a great place to work. But that’s not necessarily the case with our people. Rich Birch — Sticking with this idea of like high performing and healthy, when you think about Sun Valley or the churches you coach, what are some practical rhythms or structures that you’ve put in place or seen put in place that really help try to do both of those things. Cause I think that’s, I think that’s ultimately what honors the Lord is like, we do want to be high performing. We, the mission’s massive. Like, gosh, we got to get out and reach some people, but we, we don’t want to drive over our people to get there. Paul Alexander — Yeah.Rich Birch — Help us understand what does that practical, some of those practical rhythms look like.Paul Alexander — Well, I don’t I don’t think a lot of XPs are going like what I’m about to say… Rich Birch — Uh-oh. Paul Alexander — …but you you cannot legislate health. You can’t. You can’t build enough guidelines. You can’t build enough policies. You can’t make people be healthy. You also can’t lead a healthy organization unless you yourself are healthy. It’s that’s a just it’s just a fact. You can’t take your family somewhere you haven’t been.Paul Alexander — You disciple people, to use a Bible word for a second, you can’t disciple your own children and your own family and people close to you by intention or neglect. We do that all the time, and unless you have something to actually give them. And so this is why even in the Old Testament, you know God gives the law and we realize we can’t live up to the law. And so it honestly only shows our own imperfection. Right. And so God you know, Jesus says, “Well, hold on a second. The Sabbath was made for man. Man wasn’t made for the Sabbath.” Paul Alexander — And so um what does that mean? It means, I think, as executive staff, senior staff in the church, you actually have to lead with some moral authority in this area. And so people are going to watch if if they get an email from you at 11 o’clock at night, that tells them what’s expected of them. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Without you ever even saying it, you’re telling them what’s expected. If you’re texting them after work hours, so to speak, and it’s not an emergency, it actually, you know, it could probably wait till tomorrow, but you’re having it right now because it’s important to you, and you don’t have the personal self-control to be able to not have that conversation with that staff member at that time.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Paul Alexander — You’re telling them how they’re supposed to behave. They’re watching you just again, leadership so much like parenting. And I don’t want to minimize this, but children watch their parents and they naturally adhere to and take on the behaviors of their parents and the family unit that they grow up in. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.Paul Alexander — And culture a lot like that. It’s way more caught than taught. And so the leaders of the executive staff and senior staff, they’ve got to lead with moral authority, not moral perfection. We’re not going to see that this side of seeing Jesus, right? Not moral superiority. We’re not better than anybody. But just to be able to say, hey, man, if if everybody at my church and on my staff. If they manage their time the way I manage my time, if they manage their finances the way I manage my finances, if they used alcohol the way I use alcohol, or if they use the internet or social media the way I do, if they traded their… would my church be more of what Jesus wants it to be or less?Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s so good.Paul Alexander — And so there’s a moral authority component to this. They got to model this. Okay.Paul Alexander — Now, practically, Rich, because you know, okay, what does it actually mean? Take your time off. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Like that sounds so silly, but I mean, I remember as a young guy in ministry, my my wife was working Monday through Friday. Friday was supposed to be my day off. I’m not the kind of guy that’s going to sit around and like watch Oprah on Friday. Or like, you know, just snack and binge watch Netflix or something like that. That’s not how God wired me up. And so I would just go into the office.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And I’m like, my my wife’s working. Well, we don’t have kids. um I’m going to go get some stuff done. I’m going to move the ball forward.Rich Birch — Yeah.Paul Alexander — And I remember the XP I was working with on the senior staff at the time came in to get something out of the office. And he saw me and he’s like, Paul, what are you what are you doing? And so I do the whole, my wife’s working and I’m not going to sit around and watch Netflix, blah, blah, blah. He’s like… he gave me a gift. He said, Paul, if you don’t take every day off between now and the end of the year, don’t bother coming in in January.Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.Paul Alexander — Yeah, yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — Wow.Paul Alexander — And looking back, that high challenge was a tremendous gift, to begin to teach a young man in ministry that had a propensity to drive hard to learn how to actually slow down and enjoy my life and receive from the Lord.Rich Birch — That’s interesting.Paul Alexander — And so, um yeah, take your day off. It sounds so silly.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. No, it’s good.Paul Alexander — I get a report on my desk once a year, Rich, of all of our staff, even multiple campuses, all that, who’s taking their time off and who hasn’t taken their time off. And it’s not uncommon for me to have a conversation in January to say, hey, dude, if you don’t take all your time off this year, we’re going to have a problem. Because you’re no good burning out. The Lord needs you in the game for the long run.Rich Birch — Yeah.Paul Alexander — And I need you in the game for the long run. Sun Valley needs you in the game for the long run. Rich Birch — Yeah. Right. Paul Alexander — Your family needs that, and you can’t self destruct. So.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I had a similar interaction early on in ministry where I had a senior leader say to me, it with a similar kind of tone, don’t forget, take your day off is on the same list as don’t kill someone. Like, you know, which always stuck with me where I was like, you know, okay. And he said it in a funny kind of like, but but the message was was clear, right?Paul Alexander — Yeah.Rich Birch — Same kind of thing. Hey, we, and I don’t know that I’ve always lived by that. Paul Alexander — Yeah, sure.Rich Birch — Are there other behaviors that you, you know, in a similar way would lean in. I think the fact that you’re pushing on, okay, as us as senior leaders, are we setting the pace with the health of our organizations? Lean a little bit more in on that for us.Paul Alexander — Yeah, sure. So a couple of practical things that any leader can actually make their decision to start doing today. Establish a finish line. In some regards, you know, when is ministry ever really done? Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Well, when 7.5 billion people on the planet know Jesus, we’re done, right? So it’s one of those, the poor will have you with you you’ll have with you always. There’s never going to be a done moment. So you got to choose each day when you’re done. And if you don’t choose it, someone else will choose it for you. Paul Alexander — And so talk with your family, figure it out. And there may be a moving target from day to day and what the rhythm of your family is and the rhythm of your ministry is the Lord’s entrusted to you. But you have to personally establish when’s the finish line. I’m going to turn my phone off. I’m gonna turn my email off. I’m going to mute this or whatever. And unless something’s burning down, I’m not going to I’m not going to jump in. Simple things.Paul Alexander — Marriage retreats. We started experimenting some time ago with marriage retreats for our staff at Sun Valley. And so like everybody would say, it’s a good thing for people’s marriages to get better. And sometimes we’ll do that for our people in our churches. And we just thought, well, gosh, what if we did that for our staff? You know, if the marriages of our staff got better, would the ministries that the Lord’s entrusted to them get better? Of course they would.Rich Birch — Of course they would, yeah.Paul Alexander — So we just started doing a marriage retreat couple times a year for our staff.Rich Birch — Wow.Paul Alexander — We invite, you know, 10 to 15 couples. We have a professional counselor that we pay for that runs the thing. And we we just do that as a as a gift to our staff. Because we think, if our staff marriages get better, the ministry that the Lord’s entrusted to them will get better. Paul Alexander — We do sabbaticals every seven years for our full-time director level staff and up. And there’s a period of time that they get and a financial allowance they get. And they think about it in three in three different buckets, like professional development, personal development, and just family. And and ultimately we want them to rest so they can minister from a from a full cup, you know?Paul Alexander — And ah some time ago, we actually made the decision. It didn’t cost us anything, Rich, that even our full-time staff, no matter what their level in the organization was. So for example, a full-time administrative assistant. If they’re full-time, every seven years they get a sabbatical. We give them… Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Paul Alexander — …yeah, you’re full-time admin at Sun Valley. You get, now the scale of it’s a little different.Rich Birch — Sure.Paul Alexander — We just give them a month off with no financial allowance, but we give a month off every seven years to take at one lump sum… Rich Birch — Wow. Paul Alexander — …to get out and refresh their soul and enjoy their life a little bit. What’s that really cost us? Nothing, but time.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Paul Alexander — Nothing.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And so, yeah, there’s some real tactical things that you can do to invest in your team. Again, you can’t make them be healthy people, but you can kind of roll the carpet out and pave the way for them to be healthy people.Rich Birch — I love that. That’s some real practical examples. I love what you’ve you’ve outlined there and been you know super practical. That’s, yeah, that’s fantastic. I get the sabbatical question actually quite a bit. I think churches wrestle with that and they you know they they think, oh, you know how should we do that? So you do, kind of like what we would typically think of as a sabbatical at director and above, but then everyone else does kind of this one one month off. That’s great. And they do they have to submit a plan for the sabbatical ahead of time? Some churches will do that where they have to kind of define, hey, this is how we’re going to do. Just give us a little more detail on that.Paul Alexander — Yeah. We’re not uber religious about it, Rich. Rich Birch — Sure. Paul Alexander — We, we, we, there is a plan and their supervisor talks through their plan with them… Rich Birch — Yeah. Paul Alexander — …because there’s a financial allowance that follows that. Rich Birch — Yep.Paul Alexander — So yeah, they have the conversation ahead of time. As a representative of the board, I actually sign off on all those sabbaticals just to make sure they’re thinking about and they’re thinking…Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — …intelligently about how they want to spend their time. But functionally, to be honest, like you and your wife just went on vacation, right?Rich Birch — Yep.Paul Alexander — If our staff went on vacation for like an entire sabbatical and sat on the beach for a month or two, and they came back a little bit more rested, and they’d read a couple of books and spent time with the Lord… Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — …and they walked and prayed and fasted and enjoyed their life a little bit, they’d probably come back a little healthier. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s great.Paul Alexander — So I don’t have strong feelings about it, man. Rest, enjoy your life.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.Paul Alexander — Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s so good. I love that. I want to loop back on one thing you talked about earlier. You talked about hiring or or are the way our staff position themselves as doers versus leaders. I think this is a critical Ephesians 4, how we’re supposed to be equipping our people. But I see way too many of our team members, I see us fall into this all the time where we just slip into doing. Coach us around that. What difference does that make around cultures in our organizations?Paul Alexander — Well, yeah. Wow. Now you’re starting to talk about where accountability comes into play in culture, right? And where culture gets violated.Paul Alexander — So it’s not uncommon. So I still, at the size we are, director level and up, I still at least have a phone conversation interview with every single director level hire and up about our culture as they’re joining the team here. And if they do join the team, we go through net new staff orientation. Once a quarter, Chad, the lead pastor and myself, spend a half a day with all of our new staff and talk through our culture and our philosophy of ministry and our strategy and all that stuff.Paul Alexander — And frankly, it’s just a time to hang out have a meal together and create some relational accessibility. Because most these people I’m not going to work with day to day. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — But I want them to know that we care about them, love them, and they’re they’re part of the family now. And so we we don’t hire people that aren’t absolutely fantastic, incredibly gifted people. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And it’s easy to compliment everybody in the room. Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — Hey man, glad you’re on the team. Whether I hired you or somebody else hired you, I know you’re awesome because we don’t hire people that aren’t awesome. And you were gifted, you’re gifted. Someone saw something in you. We invited you to the team. But here’s the deal. You’re no longer going to be evaluated on how awesome you are. Now that you’re on the team—congratulations—you’re going to be evaluated how awesome you can make everybody else. Rich Birch — So good.Paul Alexander — And so your job and how great you are and gifted you are and skilled you are, that’s what got you in the room. What’s going to keep you in the room is your ability to make everybody else just as incredible as you. And so we just say that from the very beginning. Paul Alexander — And, you know, a lot of churches, their ministry staff kind of think, OK, I have to get all these volunteers in place to help them accomplish my ministry. At Sun Valley, we flipped that upside down. And the hero of the ministry at Sun Valley is the volunteer. We’re helping the church actually be the church. The staff’s role is to be a servant, to help people find their gifting, their place, their calling. And real leaders who are getting paid real money that attend your churches, um they want to solve big problems. They don’t want to just push a broom. Now, occasionally you run into the CEO or the general or whatever, who’s like, I just want to push a broom to help me remain humble. Great. We can we have a lot of brooms you can push.Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — But most people are competent, skilled, gifted, educated people. And they want to be called into something that’s big, and where they feel like they’re making a real difference. And so, yeah, our job as a staff is to call them into that, tee them up for that, support them in that, and let them run. Not let them run within the boundaries of our strategy and our culture and our vision, but let them run. So, but we’ve got to paint the riverbanks for them.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s really good. I love that. You know, kind of a related issue is how how is Sun Valley ensuring that you’ve got the right people in the right seats? What does that look like in your system? Like, how are you, like, what’s the what’s the cadence of, you know, regular reporting and like goal setting? Paul Alexander — Yeah.Rich Birch — And, you know, how are you holding people accountable? What does that what does that look like? I realize that could be like a whole episode in of itself… Paul Alexander — Sure. Rich Birch — …but give us kind of a thumbnail version of that.Paul Alexander — Yeah. Thumbnail. I mean, at the end of the day, I’ll give you the, how it happens, but, besides the hiring process and recruiting process, that stuff matters a lot. Right. So you’re inviting people to something that they’re actually gifted and called to. But at the end of the day, um it’s really results, Rich. The Bible way to say that is fruit. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — OK, for all of our listeners who are high on the theology side of things, I can sympathize with you. I went to Bible school, too. Really, it’s fruit. And when you are in a place, when your staff are in a place where they’re playing to their strengths and their gifting, and they’re in a place where they’re not overreaching and trying to attain a different role, and they’re not talking about career path, they’re just content to be the person and play the part in the body of the Lord’s gifted and call them to to play, they’re going to have more fun and they’re going to produce more fruit.Rich Birch — Yep.Paul Alexander — It’s just a fact. And so when when you see all this striving and, you know, this ambition to like, I want more, I want more, I want more. It’s a very American, Western idea, right? And the biblical way of doing that would be, hey, well why don’t you be faithful with what the Lord’s entrusted with you today? And when he sees fit to entrust more to you, guess what? He probably will.Rich Birch — He will.Paul Alexander — There’s probably going be some stray arrow out of the battle that was never even intended to hit that guy. It’s going to find just the right place in the chink in the armor. And you’re going to ascend to the throne at the right time when the Lord wants you to. So, you know, relax. Do what the Lord’s called you to do today.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Be faithful in that.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And he’ll entrust more to you when he’s ready.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — So that’s a big deal. that it may sound ah like a contrite, a little bit Bible answer to that. But when your staff are personally in a place where they’re doing what God’s called them to do, and they’re they’re very sober-minded about that, they’re going to have more fun. That’s really important. They’re go to have more fun in ministry. It’s going to be more fulfilling and they’re going to produce more fruit.Paul Alexander — Now, how’s that work its way out with what you’re talking about? We have an annual run of strategic planning that we do, both senior staff and then at the campus level. And that we refresh that every single year. Out of that come real clear objectives where the Lord’s calling us to go. Then goals, professional goals are set around that at the campus level. And then that kind of trickles down. That all gets into review systems. There’s monthly one-on-ones where they’re talking about the performance side of things.Paul Alexander — But it’s really normal, Rich, where if you and I were working with one another and I was reporting to you, you’d say, hey, Paul, what’s going on with you and Lisa? And you’d be asking about my daughters and you’d be asking about my sons. And we’d be talking about life and marriage and family. And and what’s the Lord doing in your life? What’s he saying to you these days? You know, and you know where’s he challenging you? Where’s he encouraging you? So they’re very natural, normal, that part of things there. You’d probably pray for me actually in that meeting that one-on-one. Paul Alexander — And then we talk about, okay, how are we doing with our goals? What what are the measurables? What are the setbacks? Because there’s always setbacks. Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — And what are the things that went faster than you thought they would go? And you’re finding real real traction.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — And then my your job as a supervisor would be, how do you get roadblocks out of the way for me to be successful? Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — How do you fuel things that I need fueled so I can be successful and and reach my goals? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Paul Alexander — So yeah, does that make sense? Rich Birch — That makes total sense. So I, you know, in other contexts, I’ve said results matter because the work that you do matters so much. Like and, and we, and we, we want to think about results. We want to think about fruit. What percentage of, or you know, in a round sense of the team at Sun Valley has like a number or a metric or a like they can measure, it’s not like qualitative, like, oh, things are better. It’s like, no, no, we know. I know whether this is working or not. What percentage of your people you think have a metric like that they they think about on a regular basis?Paul Alexander — All of them.Rich Birch — Love it. Tell us about that. I think this is going to be mind blowing for leaders of churches who do not think about these things. And I know, you know, there’s people out there who, who they they haven’t wrestled with this idea. Unpack that a little bit more.Paul Alexander — Yeah. So, I mean, okay. So if I say, I want my marriage to get better this year, we’ll go real personal for a second. Rich Birch — Sure.Paul Alexander — I want to get my marriage. That’s wonderful. Who doesn’t want their marriage to get better? How are you going to do that?Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — That that just doesn’t magically happen. You don’t drift towards relational intimacy with your spouse.Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — What you do is you drift apart. That’s what happens.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Absence doesn’t make the grow heart grow fonder. It makes it wander. Rich Birch — Yes. Paul Alexander — And so, you know, you’ve got to figure out, okay, how many date nights am I going to do? How much am I going to budget towards this? Are we going to do an annual retreat as a husband and a spouse together, maybe a marriage retreat? Are we going to go on vacation? What are the conversations we feel like we need to lean into? Do we need some do we need some coaching? Rich, if you’re a professional counselor, do I need to go to you and get some some input and some professional coaching? Because goodness gracious, you can see some things that I don’t see because I’m in the fray of it day in and day out. Paul Alexander — So yeah, we’ll get real tactical and say, what book are you going to read? How many of those books are you going to read? What podcast? Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Are you going listen to the unSeminary podcast? You know. What are you going to do to to grow and in your marriage this year or as a leader. And so, yeah, if you can’t measure it, then you can’t actually do it. Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — And then it gets down to opinions and, you know, everybody’s got one of those. So.Rich Birch — Yeah. Alright. I imagine imagine I’m an executive pastor you meet at a conference or you’re somewhere and you’re at an airport lounge, and they’re church of a thousand people, maybe 1500 people. They’ve got 10 staff and they’re sensing that, man, there’s some misalignment, but it’s it’s at the level of like, I think there might be a problem here. I’m not entirely sure. I feel like there’s cracks starting to happen in the staff culture, but it’s not like a giant fizzer. It’s just like things just don’t feel right. What would be some of the first steps that you would suggest a leader take to try to get clarity on actually where things are at with their staff team… Paul Alexander — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, in the next 90 days kind of thing?Paul Alexander — Yeah, that’s a good question. Okay, so first of all, I’d say, and this may sound, I mean, play Captain Obvious for a second, don’t ignore that inclination.Rich Birch — That’s good.Paul Alexander — So the Holy Spirit is is is impressing upon you, something doesn’t smell right, then it probably doesn’t smell right.Rich Birch — That’s good.Paul Alexander — Don’t bury that. Don’t avoid that. Avoiding something you know you have to solve is never going to make that situation better, ever.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Paul Alexander — And so don’t avoid it. Go with that feeling. Lean into it a little bit and and begin. Why? Why do I feel this way? What is what am I sensing that needs to be solved? Because my hunch is they’re anticipating something. If they are a good intuitive leader, they’re probably anticipating something before it’s going to happen.Paul Alexander — And so structure is always a lid to growth in a church. Churches always need to restructure. This is really important. So once you get a structure, it’s not like, oh we’re going to be with this structure for the next 15 years. Rich Birch — Right. Paul Alexander — And if it’s a growing church, you’re always going to need to restructure. And that’s just normal. Get used to it.Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — It’s just part of what it is. Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — And so I think you’ve got decipher, is it a structure issue or is it a culture issue? That that’s, you know, Wwhat am I sensing that needs to be actually needs to be solved? If it’s a culture issue, where is there a violation of your culture taking place, and how do you help it get better? Maybe you haven’t defined what your culture is. Rich Birch — Right.Paul Alexander — Maybe you can’t actually really articulate it. Maybe you haven’t written it down, trained it. Maybe you have not filmed 5 to 10 minute videos for every new staff member to to onboarding to actually understand your cultural distinctives. Maybe you’ve not embedded that into your annual reviews and actually, you know at review time, you’re actually reviewing me on how we’re doing, how I’m doing with our staff culture.Paul Alexander — So maybe that’s something you need to just kind of look in the mirror and say, you know what, as a leader, I have the power to change that. And I’m going to get that better this next year. We’re going really clear about what our staff culture is. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Paul Alexander — And then we’re going embed that and train it. If it’s a structural thing, is it truly a structural thing or do you have one or two players that just aren’t playing their part? You know, you’ve got ah this wonderful body the Lord’s put together. He talks about the church being the body of Christ, this wonderful body but where we’re limping because our ankle, we got a bum ankle. And the reality is we either need to rest it, you know, so we can get it healed up. We need to maybe get some repair done to it, or we need to like reconstruct that thing. We need a new ankle. Rich Birch — Yeah.Paul Alexander — All of those are fine answers. And I think just being honest about the team that we have and everybody playing in the right place. And then structurally, you start to get into span of care and you know do we have the right number of staff? Those are real answers you can really get. When we do staffing and structure with churches at the Unstuck Group, there are real healthy benchmarks. There are real healthy financial numbers that are good benchmarks, you know. If you’re spending more than 50 cents on the dollar on your staffing, you should ask yourself why.Paul Alexander — You know, if you have more than your staffing, you’re, you know, beyond one to 75 and you’re creeping into an area that’s really unhealthy. You know, I’ve seen churches that are staffed like one full time staff member for every 30 attenders at the church.Rich Birch — Right, right.Paul Alexander — And you’re just like. It’s sad, frankly, because the Lord’s called us to so much more. And um so those are those are like the basic science side of things that need to be changed. You know, if you’re not clear about who your senior staff is, if you got, if your senior staff, like your executive staff, are making decisions about like the color of the carpet, and they’re making decisions that that are low-level decisions, then you kind of got to look in the mirror and say, boy, are we training our staff that all big decisions have to come to us? Or are we pushing decisions down and actually teaching people how to lead and make decisions? So myriad of things.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s so good. One of, in last year’s, kind of rundown of, you know, most listened to podcasts, Amy from the Unstuck Group, hers, I think was our second most listened to podcast. And she, she dove in deep on exactly what we were just talking about their, friends. You should go back in the archives, find that episode. It will, it’ll, you know, all that structure stuff. Rich Birch — And I would say on that, particularly on structure and some of those benchmarks, I think too many of us think our church is like this precious, it’s so different than every other church out there. And and and that’s true. It is a unique body. There’s a there’s one way that that is true. But in this way, there are actually a lot of commonalities you can learn from other churches and gain wisdom from folks like Paul who have done this before and talked with lots of churches. So don’t don’t be in isolation about this, Paul. This has been an incredibly helpful. I’ve got a page of notes and other questions I wanted to ask as we were going through. Oh, I want to talk about that. Oh, I want to talk about that.Rich Birch — But I know you’ve got other things to do than be on our podcast. But as you’re thinking about the 2026, the year coming up here, what’s a question or two that you’re wrestling with that you’re thinking through? It doesn’t have to be on what we just talked about there. But just as you think about the future of Sun Valley, what are some things that you’re thinking about going into this year?Paul Alexander — Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, we pressure we’ve deal with pressure points just like every church does, right? Frankly, the pressure points we’re dealing with, we’re going through a season of a couple of years of pretty significant growth. A lot of people needing Jesus. last This is the first time in back-to-back years we baptized more than 1500 people, you know, in back-to-back years. And so there’s a huge responsibility that our growth, our front end growth is beginning to outpace our engagement. Things like people engaging in groups and building meaningful friendships that are around God’s word or, engaging and volunteering and being the church, not just coming to church, right? And a giving, learning to be generous, generous and steward with the Lord’s entrusted to them. Kind of these markers that we see of people who are actually beginning to look like Jesus. They’re not just, you know, you know, attending church and trying to figure Jesus out a little bit.Paul Alexander — And so in a lot of ways, we need a bigger boat. We’ve got multiple campuses that are doing two services on Saturday and three services on Sunday. And we’ve, we’ve got to get some bigger rooms. And you know, the other side of it is is growth sometimes can grow faster than our ability to grow leaders. I mean, you think about your own personal leadership, Rich. I mean, how long has it taken you to become the leader you are today?Rich Birch — Right. Right. Not overnight. Not in 18 months.Paul Alexander — Yeah, your whole life.Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.Paul Alexander — Yeah, the answer is your whole life. Rich Birch — Yes.Paul Alexander — And so there’s definitely been crucible moments. My hunch is if we unpack your leadership journey, there’s been crucible moments where the Lord has ah stretched and grown you in unique ways and unique seasons because of pressure points that you went through. And so um we’re figuring out how do we accelerate leadership in in our staff?Rich Birch — That’s good.Paul Alexander — And you you accelerate leadership not by by giving resources, but by constricting resources. Because leaders always figured out and grow through constriction moments. Rich Birch — That’s good.Paul Alexander — And so giving stretch assignments, all those kind of fun things. So yeah, we deal with pressure points just like everybody else does. I mean, everybody’s like, oh, I’d love to have that problem. I know you would. It’s a wonderful problem to have. It’s still a problem because we don’t want to become a lid to more people meeting Jesus in 2026. You know, by us not solving something that’s in our control to solve.Rich Birch — Yeah. In other contexts, I’ve talked about platinum problems. Those are are great problems, but they’re still problems with things we have to wrestle with. And and friends, if you’re not tracking with Sun Valley, you should be, or Paul or the Unstuck Group, these are all organizations you should be getting a chance to kind of follow along with. If people want to kind of connect with the church, get a better sense, follow along with your story, where do we want to send them online? Tell us about that. And then also Unstuck Group. I want to make sure we we send people there too.Paul Alexander — Yeah, Unstuck Group is super easy to find. Unstuckgroup.com. The listeners can email me at paul@theunstuckgroup.com. That’s the easiest way to get me, frankly. The easiest, cleanest way to get me if someone has a question or wants to follow up on something personally. I’m happy to do that, man.Rich Birch — Thanks so much, Paul. I appreciate you being here today and and really looking forward to seeing what happens in 2026 at Sun Valley. Take care, man.Paul Alexander — Yeah, glad to, man. Thanks for the invitation. Hope the conversation is helpful.

Leading Into 2026: Executive Pastor Insights Momentum is real. So is the pressure. This free report draws from the largest dedicated survey of Executive Pastors ever, revealing what leaders are actually facing as they prepare for 2026. Why staff health is the #1 pressure point Where churches feel hopeful — and stretched thin What worked in 2025 and is worth repeating Clear decision filters for the year ahead Download the Full Report Free PDF • Built for Executive Pastors • Instant access Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re sitting down with an executive pastor from a prevailing church to unpack what leaders like you shared in the National Executive Pastor Survey, so you can lead forward with clarity. We're joined by Jeremy Peterson, Executive Pastor at One Church, a fast-growing multisite church with five physical locations across New Hampshire and a strong online presence. Jeremy is also a key leader behind the Executive Pastor Summit (XPS), investing in the health and effectiveness of second-chair leaders across the country. In this conversation, Jeremy reflects on insights from the National Executive Pastor Survey and shares practical wisdom for strengthening one of the most critical—and often fragile—relationships in the church: the partnership between the lead pastor and executive pastor. Is your relationship with your lead pastor thriving, strained, or somewhere in between? Are you feeling neutral when you know the relationship needs to be strong? Jeremy offers clear, experience-tested guidance on building trust, maintaining alignment, and leading with integrity in the second chair. Why trust matters more than ever. // The survey revealed that just over one in five executive pastors feel uncertainty or strain in their relationship with their lead pastor. While not a majority, Jeremy believes the number may actually be higher in practice. He notes that many executive pastors quietly wrestle with trust—either feeling that they are not fully trusted by their lead pastor or struggling to trust their lead pastor themselves. Because the lead pastor and executive pastor sit at the intersection of vision and execution, even small fractures in trust can ripple throughout the entire organization. Consistency builds confidence. // One of the clearest ways trust erodes is through inconsistency. Jeremy emphasizes the importance of being dependable—doing what you say you're going to do, following through on commitments, and showing up with a calm, steady presence. When executive pastors overcommit and underdeliver, even unintentionally, trust begins to erode. Over time, staff and lead pastors alike start to hesitate, slowing decision-making and momentum. Reliability, Jeremy notes, is one of the most underrated leadership strengths. Truthfulness over comfort. // Another major trust-builder is honesty—especially when the truth is uncomfortable. Executive pastors often act as filters, but withholding information eventually backfires. Metrics like attendance, giving, or volunteer engagement will surface eventually, and surprises damage credibility. Jeremy argues that leaders would rather hear hard truth early than manage damage later. Speaking truth with humility strengthens trust far more than protecting feelings in the short term. Clarity before problem-solving. // Jeremy observes that executive pastors are wired to fix problems, sometimes before fully understanding the lead pastor's intent. When clarity is missing, misalignment follows. At One Church, Jeremy maintains a standing weekly lunch with the lead pastor to ensure they are synced on priorities, vision, and concerns. These rhythms allow for shared understanding and prevent assumptions from growing into frustration. Trust, he explains, grows when leaders take time to listen before acting. No surprises. // A core operating principle between Jeremy and his lead pastor is the “no surprises rule.” Whether it's service times, staffing changes, or ministry initiatives, quick five-minute conversations prevent hours of repair later. Jeremy encourages executive pastors to drop into offices, make short calls, or send clarifying texts rather than letting uncertainty linger. Small misunderstandings left unaddressed often become major relational landmines. Prayer as a leadership discipline. // One of Jeremy's most personal insights is the impact of daily prayer for his lead pastor and staff. Rather than praying only during crises, he now prays intentionally for his lead pastor, lead pastor’s spouse, and children by name. He's seen this practice soften frustrations, realign perspective, and strengthen unity across the team. Trust sets the speed of the church. // Referencing Stephen M. R. Covey's Speed of Trust, Jeremy explains that trust is not just relational—it's operational. High-trust teams move faster, communicate clearer, and recover quicker from failure. Low-trust teams slow down, double-check motives, and avoid risk. For executive pastors, cultivating trust is not optional; it's foundational to healthy church culture. To learn more about One Church and reach out to Jeremy, visit church.one. For executive pastors looking to grow in their leadership, learn more about the Executive Pastor Summit at xpsummit.org. Watch the full episode below: Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We are in the middle of these special episodes we’ve been doing where we’re reflecting back on what you said in the National Executive Pastor Survey. And what we’re doing is bringing executive pastors from prevailing churches on to really help us wrestle through some of the things that we saw and ultimately to provide some help for you as you launch here into 2026. Today, it’s our privilege to have the executive pastor of all executive pastors, Jeremy Peterson with us from One Curch. It’s a fantastic church, a multi-site church in Northeastern United States. They have five, if I’m counting correctly, outpost locations in New Hampshire, plus church online, plus Jeremy’s involved in a leading XPS, a great conference for executive pastors and and and and campus pastors. And he does all kinds of amazing stuff. So Jeremy, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Jeremy Peterson — It’s quite the introduction. Thanks, Rich, for having me.Rich Birch — This is the problem you become you become a more than one-time guest. And I’m like, what do I say? He’s amazing. That’s what you should say. Tell us a little bit about One Church, to set the context for people, understand a little bit about your background, where you’re at.Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, so I spent the first 17 years in ministry in Texas, and I’ve been here for 12 and a half years now, and it’s it’s pretty wild. I said I would never be on the mission field. I grew up as a missionary kid, and so being here, I really feel like I am on the mission field. I’ve been here 12 and a half years, and we just celebrated like our 4,000th person that’s been baptized… Rich Birch — Amazing. Jeremy Peterson — …since I’ve been here. And so it’s just it’s just been quite the ride being a part of what God’s doing and just trying not to mess it up.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, this thing we’re looking at today to kind of kick the conversation off, there was a a stat that jumped out to me from our study. 22.32% of executive pastors, that’s just over one in five, are either uncertain or experiencing strain with their lead pastor. Now, I know that that’s a minority number. It’s not like two-thirds are like struggling with this. It’s it’s It’s just over one in five.Rich Birch — But to me, that’s still a hauntingly large number that one in five executive pastors we would bump into and say, I’m not sure that that relationship is working well. So I’d love to start the conversation there. Why do you think the lead pastor and executive pastor relationship, why is there kind of tension there? Why would people be experiencing that? And and personally, I think, man, that relationship’s got to be strong for the the health of the church. But help us understand, maybe set the problem up for us. What what do you think is going on there when that relationship is strained?Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, it’s interesting to stat, Rich, because talking to a lot of executive pastors around the country like you do, I feel like that number may even be a little bit higher. Rich Birch — Right. I think so surveys are incredibly helpful, but I feel like one of the biggest challenges or conversations that I’m having on a regular basis with other executive pastors is I’m not sure the lead pastor trusts me. Sometimes it’s like, I’m not sure that I trust my lead pastor.Jeremy Peterson — And so I think there’s definitely a tension, which I think it’s, there there are two roles that are so incredibly crucial for the church, right. You have either the cedar senior or lead pastor, who’s really the one casting the vision. And you’ve got the executive pastor in that second role or that second chair, that’s really called to like help execute on the vision. And when there’s like, trust or mistrust, lack of trust, whatever it may be, that can cause a lot of, i think, tension and frustration if it’s not if it’s not addressed in some capacity.Rich Birch — Yeah. And I do get these calls as well. I sometimes what happens is i’ll I’ll be talking to an executive pastor, maybe I’m on site and they’ll pull me aside and they’ll say, you know, I just love my lead pastor. So fantastic. They’re an amazing vision-caster. They do such a great job. And then they they rattle off all this real positive stuff. And then they’ll say, but can you help me get better at this relationship how do I… Or it’ll be a lead pastor will pull me aside and say oh i just i love the executive pastor here and they’ll same thing rattle off that person’s so good at getting stuff done and they manage the team so well and never worry about money stuff, and and then there’s a but. But could you help me get better at that relationship like ah it’s like we’re struggling around this. Rich Birch — What would be some early signs in conversations that you’re having that maybe there’s the trust is starting to erode a bit that that’s drifting towards this kind of, Ooh, this is things are not in a good place. What are some of the telltale signs in those conversations that you see? Ooh, we maybe have a trust problem here.Jeremy Peterson — Yeah. Trust is really interesting because I feel like, um, really time builds trust. I mean, I feel like I’m, I usually kind of err on the side of like, hey I’ll trust you until you, until you cause reasons to bring like, untrust or whatever that may be… Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Peterson — …or or break the trust. Because it takes, I feel like time, time is what really builds on trust, but it’s something that can be also lost overnight. Rich Birch — Very quickly.Jeremy Peterson — And so, um, I think a few things that I’ve noticed over the years, As trust begins to erode, I think there’s ah a few things that I would that I would hit on. I think um a few of them is just as being consistent. So like as an executive pastor, are you like are you reliable? Are you are you dependable? Are you doing what you say you’re going to do? Are you coming in with like a calm calm spirit? Sometimes senior pastors or lead pastors can be all over the place. They can be upset or frustrated, and if you kind of come in as like the is the constant like in the midst of a storm and you can kind of calm that down a little bit, I think that that’s that’s really helpful. Jeremy Peterson — I think a big part of it is just is being truthful. So like in the consistency, are you being truthful? Because a senior pastor needs somebody who can speak the truth into them. Most of most staff even other um I think a lot of senior pastors they’re just not very trusting people by nature, and so I think when you have somebody who can speak truth into you, I think it actually starts developing and growing the trust. I feel like if you’re the same time i feel like if you’re holding back all the truth, I feel like like trust starts eroding over time if you’re holding back some of the truth. Jeremy Peterson — So take something like weekly attendance, right? Senior pastors, lead pastors really, really care about seeing like about attendance. But if you are not being like fully truthful or transparent, little if you start holding some of the information, the information is going to come out in some capacity. Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Peterson — And so I think if you start holding on to that, that can start breaking or even eroding the trust over time. So I think that consistency is a is a huge thing. I think another part of it is… Rich Birch — Yeah. I think… Jeremy Peterson — …oh go ahead.Rich Birch — No, no, I was just going say, it’s amazing how, and what was that poem? Like everything I learned about life I learned in kindergarten. It’s amazing though, how much the just the core idea of like, do what you say, do what you said you were going to do. Jeremy Peterson — Yeah.Rich Birch — Like it’s, but it’s amazing how for some leaders we, they seem to struggle with that, that it’s like, well, you said you were going to do this. Like, why did you not do it? It’s incredible. What else else were going to say there?Jeremy Peterson — Oh yeah, the other thing was just going to add is I think clarity is so crucial. You’ve been an executive pastor. I think sometimes we go into this like problem solving mode and we’re constantly trying to think of like, how do we solve this problem? How do we how do we get in front of it?Jeremy Peterson — And so a lot of times we don’t even have clarity, even necessarily around what the senior pastor or lead pastor are trying to accomplish. And we’ve already gone into like fix it mode before even we even have a full picture of like what’s trying to be accomplished. And if you’re not constantly like syncing up in some capacity with the senior pastor, I think that that’s where some of the trust can break over time. Jeremy Peterson — So like I have a standing lunch every single Monday, regardless of what’s going on, unless we’re on vacation, we get together and we sync up every single Monday to have a conversation. And I remember initially it was like, well I don’t know that I can commit to a, you know, weekly lunch time and doing this. And so unless there’s some random exception for us, Mondays is really that chance to be able to sync up, make sure that we’re on the same page. And and I think really in that time, kind of not only hear like what’s God placed on your heart, but but I’m building camaraderie.Jeremy Peterson — So like, and by camaraderie, I don’t I don’t feel like in any sense, like you as an executive pastor and lead pastor need to be best friends. But I feel like having some kind of common interests where you can you can spend some time together, you can have conversations that are not just work related, but a lot of it’s also about like hey what’s going on in your life. Like what’s happening not just here at the church but what’s happening in your own life? What’s going on? Like like being aware of those things, I think the more you can have those conversations it’s not just all about work all the time, I think that that helps build trust builds that relationship with your senior lead pastor as well.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to come back to that the kind of friendship, co-worker relationship thing there.Jeremy Peterson — YeahRich Birch — But you said something earlier that caught my attention, this idea of a standing lunch on Mondays. Are there any other, in your relationship with Bo, a part of why I was excited to talk to you about this is as an outsider, I perceive you guys are like, those guys seem to like working with each other.Rich Birch — They’re like, the fact that you’ve been there for 12 years and you continue to be there is a sign of that and vice versa. He continues to love working with you and it’s a prevailing church. You guys are taking new ground. Mondays, lunchtime, that’s a core behavior practice, intentional practice. Are there other things that you’re doing as you think about engaging with him in a way that build trust or build that relationship?Jeremy Peterson — That’s a great question. So I think two things is, I will constantly drop into his office and have a five minute conversation, or make a five minute phone call. I’ve realized that over the years, how much time and probably pain I could have spared both of us… Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Peterson — …had we just dropped in and had those conversations. And so kind of a a best practice that we would have now is like, hey, pick up the the phone and let’s have a five minute conversation… Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Peterson — …instead of like potentially hours on the back end of things that we may have to undo or repair just because you know you may have had a question, doubt, frustration, whatever it may have been like. Just go ahead and voice those things and let’s have those conversations and then let’s move on versus like dwelling on it. Because I think that’s where the enemy does a really good job getting a foothold. And it’s like, hey, if I can just create a little little doubt or a little dissension here, then I can help break away and erode that trust.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Could you give me an example, that’s maybe not too close to home, of what one of those five minute things would be? Because I think that’s a good insight that like, hey, I should just like pick up the phone or drop by and like, hey, here’s something either I heard I can I can see that or I’ve thought of a similar thing around, like I see something that’s getting going and I’m like, I could wait to meet with the executive team and everybody or like, I but I really should just get my lead pastor’s thoughts on where his head’s at on this issue. Because if this thing gets too far down the road… Jeremy Peterson — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, we could be causing pain. What would be some examples of the kind of things that you think those kind of five minute drop-ins are helpful with?Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, I mean, something is simple as we had one of our locations was going from two services to three services. And so I had a conversation with the outpost pastor and we started talking through what those things are.Jeremy Peterson — And we’re like, yeah, these three times make sense. And we just kind of ran with it. And so in retrospect, we start going to print. So we get to the point where it’s like going on the website, it’s going to print. And he asked me, he’s like, what are these times? Like, why why did we land on these times?Jeremy Peterson — And so it was realizing that sometimes it’s those simple things, but if you can constantly be dropping in shoot a text, have a quick conversation, like the amount of things that we had to undo to fix something like that, was big. Another thing that he’s he’s shifted a lot now, but early on, it would not be uncommon for, say, one of our student pastors to go up to him and say like, hey, I know you did student ministry back in the day. I’m thinking about doing this. And he would be like, that sounds like a great idea. Just go for it. Not thinking through like all the details and ramifications of what that looked like.Jeremy Peterson — And so next thing I know, I’m in a meeting with one of our student pastors and they’re like, hey, Bo said that we should do this. And I’m like, hold the phone, like no we’re not we’re not doing that. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeremy Peterson — And so having those short conversations really trying to operate under the like the no surprise premise which is what him and I operate under. Our elders operate under that as well. So we’ve we’ve kind of shared the same thing with our elders is like, hey, if you have questions or concerns, pick up the phone, make a call, always choose to believe the best instead of assuming the worst.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, speaking with weight, you know, that’s always a shrewd move by staff to like, if I can just get the lead person to say, yeah, yeah go do that that. That’s like a blank check. Well, Bo said, you know, I can imagine that, thatJeremy Peterson — He signed off on it. It’s fine.Rich Birch — It’s fine. It’s totally fine. We’re buying the corporate jet. It’s fine. Let’s go back to the best friends versus coworkers thing.Jeremy Peterson — Yeah.Rich Birch — I see that this is an interesting relationship. And I’ve had I’ve had the privilege of working for three incredible lead pastors who I have really good positive relationships with. And, you know, we got a lot of stuff done, moved a lot stuff for the kingdom. And we’re friendly, like we’re we were close, but we weren’t like dudes. We were not like, you know, going to whatever dudes do like, you know.Rich Birch — And, so I sometimes had tension around in my own brain around like, should I be more friendly with these people? I don’t know. Help us understand, pull that apart. How, what do you think is healthy? What, what, what’s the kind of a minimum viable relationship? You know, how do we think through our you know, that, that side of this, this relationship?Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, that’s that’s a really, that’s I think it’s probably different for every senior executive pastor relationship, but I feel like there’s some who think that they need to be best friends. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Peterson — So like every vacation we do, like our families need to do this together. Every hobby, like we need to be a part of that together. What I’m also realizing is that there there’s probably some common interests that you share. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Peterson — And they may not be the same. So like your lead pastor may like to golf. You may not like to golf. I may really like to fish. He does not really care to fish. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Peterson — But but there are common interests that we’ve realized over time. So a lot of that could be sports. So like we follow one of the same college football teams. We both enjoy working out. And so being able to share some of the best practices in those areas, I think it is finding like, where’s their common ground? Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeremy Peterson — And how can we have a conversation? At the same time, I don’t know how healthy it is for you to be best friends. And because there are times where that could actually keep you from being fully truthful with them in in worries that you may like you may impact your relationship in some capacity. I think that’s a dangerous place to be.Rich Birch — That’s good. How do you think, so we’re really talking here about trust and how we’re building trust. How are we trustworthy people with our lead pastor and are seen by being trustworthy with our lead pastor and then vice versa? How do we, you know, continue to try to, you know, choose trust with them and engage in a way?Rich Birch — How do you think this idea of building trust ends up rippling into other relationships as, as, ah as we lead as an executive pastor? I often think, you know, we, we, we end up in, we’re in this really interesting kind of intersection of vision and execution. And so, you know, oftentimes I think lead pastors, when they’re doing their job, right, they are like a large portion of what they’re doing is thinking about vision and about the future. And then our job is to figure out, okay, how does that actually, how do we make that work?Rich Birch — And so we got to work with all these other relationships. What’s the connection here around trust and relationships with our staff, with our staff teams, maybe younger staff, what’s that look like?Jeremy Peterson — And I think it goes back to being truthful. If I overcommit and under deliver, then I can only do that a couple of times before like trust will start to erode. And I’ve seen it times over the years where like somebody way overcommits on this and they’re like, no problem, we can do this. And you know we’re going to have 10,000 people show up to it, but it’s going to be amazing. And then you you hype it up in such a way that then then the event or the function, whatever it is, happens. And then all of a sudden you like, you feel like you way under delivered. You can only that I think ah a few times before it starts to become like, man, I’m not sure. Like I know, I know Jeremy said he was going to do this, but like he keeps dropping the ball. He keeps committing at super high level and he’s not executing at that level. I think that that starts impacting things. um Jeremy Peterson — There’s a, there’s a great book out there um that Stephen Covey wrote. He’s probably most, probably most well known for The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, I think is the name of the book.Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Peterson — He wrote another book that’s not as well known, but the book is called Speed of Trust. Rich Birch — Yeah. Jeremy Peterson — And it’s a great reminder that like the more you work on being synced up together, the more trust begins to grow, the faster you can actually move and operate as an organization and as an entity, the more that that is built. And so so if you haven’t had a chance to read it, fascinating read. It was really helpful for me to understand that like, the more truthful I am, the more consistent I am, the more clarity I’m providing and actually executing at that level, then the more trust begins to build. And therefore allows us to actually move at a pretty rapid pace, the more that that foundation is built. Jeremy Peterson — And I think it impacts the staff as a whole. it’s It’s a little bit like the mom-dad relationship. Like if there’s tension or if they’ve like if there’s been a fight or an argument, like as as kids, like you can tell something’s off.Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Jeremy Peterson — What did dad say? Or you know why is mom upset with dad? um I think ah the staff can sense that. Like If something is off between the two of you, they can start to begin to wonder, doubt. They can even begin to you know, put in like suspicious thoughts of like, man, something must be off here. Something’s out of sync. And so I think that that’s a big part of it is just, is taking time, working on the relationship, and then just watching it kind of like grow and blossom over time. But also I would encourage, like if you’re a new executive pastor to the role, just realize that like you can’t buy time.Rich Birch — It just takes time.Jeremy Peterson — I’m an investment over years, the things that you’ve learned. You know, we talk often here about like failing fast and cheap because we feel like failure is actually needed to be able to accomplish what God’s calling us to do. But I think if you’re not truthful and transparent as that’s happening, then then it’s not long before it it starts catching up to you.Rich Birch — That’s good. That reminds me one of the the, you know, axioms I’ve talked about with our teams is, you know, there’s, there’s no bad information. There’s just because I think sometimes like something might go wrong, you might have an event, you might be a team member, you, you know, you busted something, it could be as simple as, you know, youth event, we had literally had this happen, we opened a brand new building. And the very first youth event, there was a car, we had a kid go through the wall, and it busted a like it, you know, but busted a wall, like his brand new building, $15 million dollar build. Wow. This is amazing. You know, put a hole in the wall. Rich Birch — And you know, there’s no bad information. What makes that hole in the wall worse is if we never hear about it, and it gets covered up and someone puts a, you know, well, we’ll just move this, you know, whatever, some furniture.Jeremy Peterson — Just put a big poster up there, it’ll be fine.Rich Birch — Yeah. Put a poster in front of it or whatever. That just gets worse over time. Like, sure. There may be information we don’t like, but there’s no bad information. Like we’ve got to be organizations that spread even bad news and you know how we react. That was one of the times where I felt like in that case that instance I said was, I feel like, oh like the Lord was with me because actually I responded super well. I said to the guy, I’m like, this is why we bought this building. I’m so glad you had all these students here. You know, let’s get it fixed and and move forward. I did not like paying that bill, but you know, it is, it is what it is, so. But we can’t, if we create organizations that are trying to hide the truth, that are trying to hide information that will erode trust long-term and you move way slower to the speed of trust, you know, information there.Rich Birch — So pivoting in a in a slightly different direction, but related kind of an adjacent neighborhood of conversation. What are you learning about developing, particularly trust with, or building up team members, younger team members, newer team members at, at One Church? How, what does that look like for you guys? How, how are you, how how does that fit into this whole idea of, you know, building trust with people?Jeremy Peterson — That’s a great question, Rich, because actually the and we can talk about it if we have time. But the Executive Pastor Summit this year specifically is really about leading up and empowering younger leaders. Rich Birch — I love it. Jeremy Peterson —But can I just do a quick jump backwards before?Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Peterson — Just just maybe this is a bonus thing. Regardless of whether you’ve worked with your lead senior pastor um for the last couple of months or the last 10 years, something that has really changed my heart and my perspective, and I think has really helped grow the relationship, is um it’s just daily be in prayer for him or her. I know that sounds very simple. Until about three years ago I would pray for Bo on a regular basis but it was just kind of like when I thought of it, or on the way to work, or Sunday morning…Rich Birch — Right. It’s a big thing coming up.Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, here’s a big thing coming up. But but man the the more we really challenge all of our staff to do this, but I know for myself praying for him, praying for each of his kids by name, know where they’re at in their life, relationships that they’re in, praying for his spouse, and I know he’s doing the same thing. Like I think that that God really takes that, honors that, and he helps kind of build trust through that. And so just an encouragement to some of you if you’re like wrestling with this, if you’re doubting, if you feel like the enemy is getting a foothold is, my encouragement is like, man, just take time every single day to pray for your senior lead pastor. And then I think that’ll make a huge difference. So just want to put that in. So I didn’t forget about, about that on the, on the back end.Rich Birch — No, that’s so good. That’s a great practical tactic for us around, particularly, you know, you think about the the lead pastor, there was a high percentage of these in this kind of one out of five that were really saying, so it’s 17.89 is the number of people, of executive pastors that said that they feel neutral about their relationship with their lead pastor. And man, we don’t want to feel neutral about this relationship. Like this can’t be like, it’s fine. Like that’s not good. That would be a great takeaway is say, Hey, what if I was going to spend time every day praying for my lead pastor, for what’s going on in their world, for their, you know, for their spouse, for their kids, all of that. I think that’s a great, great takeaway. Rich Birch — That’s a callback to a previous episode as well. I love, and I know I’ve joked with you about this before when we had you and Bo on talking about multi-site stuff last year, and you know, I asked this question around how do you know the campus versus teams and like the classic multi-site tension. And, um and I’ve retold this story way too many times. And, you know, I’m like, what do you guys do to fix this problem? And then Bo in his wise sort of way rolls out the like, well, you know, I pray every day for every staff member and their, and their family. And I found that that has really helped. And I was like, literally, I was like, Okay. So I’ve been doing this for 20 years, asking that question. Never, never once considered that. So I felt humbled.Rich Birch — But that’s a great, a great, you know, it’s not just like, and know that’s what I love about you guys. It’s not like you’re not saying that from like, oh, just pray about it. It’s like, no, this, let’s actually add this as a part of our lives and discipline and see what the Lord will do. You know, I think it’s amazing. It’s fantastic.Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, not to recap the whole thing, but man, like our staff as a whole has been doing that the last four and a half months, Rich. And even the interaction, some of the past frustrations, it’s crazy how much that’s minimized.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Peterson — And just simply praying for, I mean, we spend all this money to go to conferences and all this stuff. And it’s like, hey, how about here’s a printed off name of everybody on staff, their spouse and their kids. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Peterson — Hey, just take 20 minutes a day and pray for them. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Peterson —It’s like, oh yeah, I can I guess Ii can do that as it doesn’t cost much other than some time so. But anyway…Rich Birch — Well, and you start to see each other as humans, right? At the end of the day. Jeremy Peterson — Oh yeah. Rich Birch —And, you know, you start to be like, hey, this person’s like, they’re not just a task that needs to be done or, you know, they’re not just whatever the next problem is that’s going to come up. So, um yeah, that’s a great practical takeaway. Rich Birch —Well, let’s pivot on that. I want to make sure because I know that you can help leaders on this as well. As we think about younger leaders, what, you know, just ah ask a super wide open, what should we be thinking about? What are you thinking about? What are you wrestling with? Help us wrestle through that. you know, let’s talk about that.Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, something that’s really been on my heart the last probably year and a half is how do we empower younger leaders? And so I’m not sure who sits around like your, know, your decision making team. But God really put in our hearts several years back to start a residency program and really pour into some of these younger leaders. I know people took a risk on people like you and I, at some point when we were in our twenties and didn’t really know what we’re doing. And we made some dumb things. Like, I think I made multiple holes and multiple walls, which the senior pastor was like very forgiving at the time about it. Jeremy Peterson — But, but I just love that we get an opportunity to like really pour into invest and actually empower and, um, and and put some trust even behind some of these residents that they’re they’re going from like, okay, I’ve learned these things in school. I have this head knowledge of things, but from a practical standpoint, what does that really look like? Jeremy Peterson — And so so knowing that we were going to this conversation, I just sat down with one of our first year residents just to kind of hear what their experience has been so far, because I want to hear like the positives, the negatives and kind of what their insight was. But um but a few things that he shared shared with me was like, I love that you guys allow us to fail.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Jeremy Peterson — He’s like, I’ve been at other jobs before where it’s like, if something happens to me, if I miss it, then it could be like, hey, you’re going get written up for this. And for us for us, it’s really trying to create that culture of like, you are allowed to fail. You’re allowed to try things. We talk about failing fast and cheap. We hope it doesn’t cost us a lot. But but ultimately, like that’s a safe place in the residency to but to be able to be.Jeremy Peterson — Another thing he said was, um like I’ve been challenged to say yes to opportunities. And I was like, well, yeah, tell me a little bit more about that. And he’s like, no, usually kind of like you pick and choose. Well, yeah, I want to say yes to this one, but I don’t want to say yes to this. And he’s like, I’m in my early 20s. Why would I not say yes to all these different opportunities? And he’s like, I really want to be scrappy.Jeremy Peterson — And I’m like, well, tell me more tell me more about that. He’s like, no, I really want to be like more of a utility, like multi-tool staffer. And in my mind, I’m like, OK, I appreciate the the hustle and this younger resident because he’s already talking about like, OK, how do we create a staffing position for him? Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Peterson — But I also think realizing that, you know, he said, if I get an opportunity to preach, I’m going to take the opportunity to preach. If I get the opportunity to host, I to take the opportunity to host. If I don’t have anything that weekend, that I’m going to see if I can serve with our production team and kind of learn the behind the scenes side of things so that I can help with that. Anywhere that’s needed. Jeremy Peterson — And so I love this idea that they’re willing to say yes, they’re willing to take some risks, knowing that the team believes in them. And so for us, and I think for me specifically, it’s been okay, who do I see being a part of our leadership decision making team in the years ahead?Jeremy Peterson — And know for, you know, if the average age in the room is like, say, in their mid 40s, like to bring in a early mid 20 year old is it like, wait a second, like, what is this, you know, what is this kid going to say to us? um I think they provide some incredibly fresh perspective…Rich Birch — 100 percent.Jeremy Peterson — …on what we’re actually doing well, things that we should do differently, and just ways that we can continue to like really empower them, challenge them, put them in positions that may make them feel uncomfortable. Like we have some that have are like almost deathly afraid of having you know being on stage and talk talking to somebody. But give them an opportunity to to get in there, host, I mean, hosting’s two, three minutes, but get an opportunity to get on stage, just kind of like, you know, put a little fire under them, and and see how they do. And and just watch them grow. And I’m always shocked, and I shouldn’t be shocked because because we’ve been doing the residency for a while, but how many of them not only step up into the challenge, but then actually go beyond our expectations.Rich Birch — Right. That’s so good. I think this is a critical important critically important for us to lean in on. You know In the last year I’ve been struck, I was with a lot of different churches, and but there were two in particular that stood out to me. These are like prevailing churches, folks that are listening in. If you were listening, they’re like name brand churches. You know these people.Rich Birch — And the thing that stood out to me was I was having in both of them, I just happened to be having a kind of a meeting with leadership meeting with the folks that were actually operational leaders of a whole bunch of different departments. It was like a kind of a cross section of team leaders. And I was pleasantly surprised with how young that crowd was. Like I looked around the room and I was like, man, these people are all in their late twenties, early thirties. And they’re running departments that are larger than, you know the majority of churches in the country.Rich Birch — You know they’ve got 15 staff reporting to them. They’re managing multi-million dollars of budgets. And these are prevailing churches. Now, I don’t think that that is a coincidence. I think both of those churches have unlocked something and have realized, wait a second, we have to pass this thing on to the next generation.Rich Birch — So when you think about the residency, kind of talk to us so about but about the residency program. What does that look like? And how did you get into that? How did that kind of get that ball get rolling? Help us understand. Maybe there’s someone who’s listening in today is thinking, hmm, maybe that’s something, a step we should take in this coming year.Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, so it was actually a retired baseball player who’s actually going to be at XPS this year. I’m going to do an interview with him. Because now that he’s retired, he’s still coaching, but the like now he’s kind of coaching up the AA and AAA players as they’re coming in and they’re moving up to the major leagues. But he really challenged us because we told him the staffing was one of the biggest challenges, especially in in the New England area. There’s not a lot of people that feel called to be up here this close to Canada, which I know you’re in Canada. But they’re they’re like, maybe if we can be further south, like a little more comfortable.Jeremy Peterson — But for us, we realized that staffing was a challenge. And for us, he really challenged us to to start a residency. And the residency, it’s either a one or two year residency. And you come on you come in you have two areas of focus. And so it could be, say, worship and production. And you’ll spend six months with each of those areas, really kind of hands-on. And so if you’re showing up here, you’re actually like, you will be on stage leading worship. You will be helping run production, whether it’s for our online service or at one of our outposts. But we really try to give as many hands-on opportunities as possible. Jeremy Peterson — As somebody who went to seminary, I think I had one class called practical ministry. And it was like, here’s one semester on, you know, how to do weddings, how to do funerals, but not a whole lot of hands-on experience unless I was volunteering at a church. And so for us, it’s really trying to take, hey, here’s some things that I’ve learned, like from a practical standpoint, but like actually let’s just actually see them like, live happening in real time and get an opportunity to be able to see like, Hey, is it something that God’s even really calling me to? And how can I use the gifts that he’s given me to further the kingdom?Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Love that. Well, we’ve kind of referenced XPS. So XPSummit.org. This is a conference that you are the grand content poobah for. Talk to us about XPS this year. This is to me is a must-attend event. Talk to us about it. and And where is it? All those kind of details this year.Jeremy Peterson — Yeah, sure. It’s it’s May 4th through 6th in Dallas-Fort Worth. And typically we’ll have 150, 175 executive pastors from different size of churches around the country. And and I appreciate the comment, Rich, but really my goal is to get the people that are there with the content, people like you, and other leaders who really want to come and pour into other executive pastors. And so, yeah, so if you, whether you live in the area or you just want to a day to hang out with some incredible leaders, Rich is going to be there, I’ll be there. And like you said, you can go to xpsummit.org and you can see some of the keynote speakers as well as some of the breakout leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, Jeremy, just as we wrap up today’s episode, bit of a curveball question here. As you think about 2026 at One Church, what’s a question or two that’s on your mind that you’re like, hmm, here’s some stuff that we’re thinking about. it doesn’t have to do with anything we’re talking about today. It could be just anything that you’re thinking about this year. You’re wrestling through thinking, hmm, I wonder what that’s going to look like in this this coming year.Jeremy Peterson — Man, I was not expecting that question. One thing I’ve been praying about is I think we’re going to start seeing a shift in different parts of the country um where we may have people that are more of like a like a tentmaker role in ministry where um I think there’s an incredible opportunity to do things in like the business sector, but at the same time still work in the church using some of the gifts that God’s empowered you with. And so I can see a shift happening where we have more of the tent making. It’s crazy to me that it’s been like less than a hundred years since the church has actually had like paid full-time staff… Rich Birch — Right. Jeremy Peterson — …and not only paid full-time staff, but multiple staff. And so I think I think we could see a shift there. I think a lot of its just to be trying to be, in the words of one of our residents, how to be a little more scrappy, and really looking for staff that is not just focused on one specific area, but somebody who is a utility player that’s like, hey, I can help out in these four or five different areas instead of just being like, I have this one skill set that I can bring. I think those are two things that are going to make a huge impact in the church in 2026.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Jeremy. I appreciate you being on today. If people want to track with One Church, where do we want to send them online to track with you guys?Jeremy Peterson — Just go to church.one. Little bit different of a website, but yeah, they can go there and you can find my email address if you want to email me or if we can serve you any way, I know um for for our elders, for Bo, our senior pastor, we love serving the local church as a whole. And so if you’re in the area or if you want to come and hang out with us for a few days, shoot me an email and we’d love to host you guys.Rich Birch — Great. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today, sir.

Leading Into 2026: Executive Pastor Insights Momentum is real. So is the pressure. This free report draws from the largest dedicated survey of Executive Pastors ever, revealing what leaders are actually facing as they prepare for 2026. Why staff health is the #1 pressure point Where churches feel hopeful — and stretched thin What worked in 2025 and is worth repeating Clear decision filters for the year ahead Download the Full Report Free PDF • Built for Executive Pastors • Instant access Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're continuing our special series responding to insights from the National Executive Pastor Survey with an executive pastor from a prevailing church. Today we're joined by Eric Garza, Executive Pastor at Cross Church. Cross Church is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with 12 campuses across South Texas, serving both English- and Spanish-speaking congregations. In this conversation, Eric helps unpack the number-one fear expressed by executive pastors in the survey: running out of space and not knowing what to do next. Is your church growing but feeling physically constrained? Are facilities, kids' space, or parking holding you back from what God may want to do next? Eric offers practical, hard-earned wisdom from leading through rapid multisite expansion. Facilities don't just limit space—they shape momentum. // At Cross Church, growth has come through both campus planting and mergers or acquisitions of existing churches. In both cases, facilities either enable momentum or quietly choke it. Sustainable space must support all aspects of ministry—not just a worship room. Parking, kids' environments, lobbies, restrooms, storage, and office space all play a role. A building that works on paper can quickly fail if it can't support the full weekend experience. Don't rush into permanence. // One of Eric's strongest recommendations is to resist the pressure to own a building too early. Several Cross campuses began in leased spaces, which reduced operational burden and allowed the church to test viability without long-term risk. Leasing removes concerns like insurance, major maintenance, and long-term liability, freeing leaders to focus on ministry. If a campus stalls or misses the mark, leaders can pivot without being locked into a costly asset. Location matters more than you think. // Some facility lessons are learned the hard way. Eric humorously—but seriously—warns against launching next to railroad tracks or industrial zones. Visiting a facility during a Sunday morning timeframe is essential. Noise, safety, curb appeal, and accessibility all influence guest experience. Cross has launched campuses in libraries and event centers, learning to adapt acoustics and layouts while prioritizing safety and hospitality. Capital campaigns need margin. // Eric is candid about capital campaigns. Churches often believe in faith for a number that rarely materializes at full scale, especially since capital giving sits above normal tithes. Meanwhile, construction costs almost always rise. Cross learned the hard way that campaign timelines and construction timelines rarely align. Building 10–15% margin into every campaign accounts for inflation, surprises, and delays. If surplus remains, it becomes a testimony of generosity rather than a crisis averted. Remodeling vs. rebuilding requires sober math. // Acquiring an existing building can be a gift—or a trap. Before knocking down walls, Eric urges leaders to get third-party inspections and cost estimates. Some remodels quietly approach the cost of new construction while delivering less functionality. Evaluate whether a building should serve as a long-term campus, a ministry center, or even collateral for future development. Sometimes the wisest move is not to hold services there at all. Define a clear facility standard. // Over time, Cross Church developed a consistent “Cross standard” across campuses—shared color palettes, stage layouts, kids' safety ratios, and ministry flow. While floor plans differ, the experience feels familiar. This standard helps teams evaluate remodels quickly and ensures families know what to expect. It also clarifies where compromise is acceptable and where it's not. When space is tight, simplify strategically. // Not every constraint requires construction. Cross has increased capacity by adding services, adjusting service times, and consolidating kids' age groups when space is limited. Combining grades temporarily doesn't dilute quality—it preserves momentum. Eric defines excellence not as “having the best,” but “doing the best with what you have.” Obstacles are reframed as opportunities to steward growth faithfully. Communicate the season clearly. // Your people can endure inconvenience when they understand the why. Leaders don't need to share every detail, but they should frame facility strain as evidence of impact, not failure. Clear vision keeps people focused on mission rather than discomfort. To learn more about Cross Church, visit crosschurchonline.com or follow @crosschurchrgv on social media. You can also connect with Eric directly on social media at @ericpgarza. Watch the full episode below: Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We are in the middle of, in the in the midst of, is maybe a better way to say, these special set of podcasts where we’re responding to what you said in the National Executive Pastor Survey, which turned out to be the largest dedicated or direct executive pastor survey that we’re aware of ever, which is kind of cool. And hundreds of people were you know, logged in and told, gave us a sense of where ministry is at. And what we’ve been doing is spending time with an executive pastor from a prevailing church, and frankly, people I like, to get their ah thoughts on kind of what was surfaced. Rich Birch — And today we’ve got a big one. This is a significant issue. In fact, it was the single biggest fear that was expressed. We asked a question around, what’s your kind of biggest fear for this year? And nearly one in five executive pastors expressed fear about this. And what is that fear? It’s the whole issue of our facilities, space, capital projects, that sort of thing. Many churches are running out of kids space, parking, seating, lobby capacity. Rich Birch — You know, we’re all worried about in inflation of construction costs. If you got a building quoted on five years ago, you’re going to want to get it quoted on again, you know, renovation, building, all of this stuff. And, you know, we’re excited to have ah today a return guest, Eric Garza with us. He is from a fantastic church, Cross Church, which is located in Texas. It’s one of the fastest growing churches of ah in the country, and they have 12 campuses, if I’m counting correctly. So Eric has thought about facilities and so excited to have you back on the show, Eric. Thanks for being here.Eric Garza — Rich, thanks for having me back. Good to have an opportunity to have a great conversation about a big topic for a lot of pastors and executives across the country. Yeah.Rich Birch — Well, you’re going to solve all our problems for us today, Eric. So.Eric Garza — It’s just some nuggets of what I’ve learned and experienced. But if I can make your life and your world a little bit better, awesome.Rich Birch — That’s great. That’s good. Kind of tell us a little bit about Cross again, kind of set the context, you know, give us a bit of sense of the the church.Eric Garza — Yeah, so we’re in deep south Texas. Most of our campuses are within a half hour north of the US-Mexico border. So right at the bottom of the tip of Texas. 30 years going on 31 years as a ministry. In the last eight years, we went from one site ah to now seven locations, physical locations and 12 campuses.Eric Garza — We’re a bilingual ministry, which means we do we have English campuses and we have Spanish campuses. And we recently, last year in 2025, launched our first campus outside of our region in San Antonio, Texas. Rich Birch — Love it.Eric Garza — And you can imagine a lot of ah victories and a lot of challenges, ah you know leaving your space, your comfort area, the region where you’ve been, for 30 years and then heading out and venturing off into what we believe God called us to do in in Central Texas.Eric Garza — So ah just phenomenal growth. We’ve seen God’s hand up on our ministry and it’s come with, ah like I said, a lot of wins and a lot of challenges we’ve had to navigate. And being a a predominantly Hispanic ministry that reaches both English congregants and Spanish congregants, dealing with cultural, political issues in our region of the country ah has just been a whirlwind. But as anybody could imagine, it’s been a big learning season for us for expansion. You know, I know we’re talking about facilities going from one side to multisite and all of that that entails operationally, logistically, financially. So I wouldn’t say we know it all. We certainly don’t if we’re always learning. But man, if if we can just impart any wisdom, we’re we’re all for that.Rich Birch — Love it. Well, I would say I actually re-looked at a lot of these fears. And the overall tone, if you were to kind of summarize the the conversation that people seem to be expressing is like, there’s this sense from a lot of executive pastors, listen, our ministry could grow, but our space, frankly, is holding us back. And we’re not entirely sure what the path forward is. It’s like, we we see the physical space issues, but I’m not sure where to go from here. So I’d love to jump right in. Eric Garza — Sure.Rich Birch — How have you, as you’ve looked at your seven physical locations, 12 campuses, how do you evaluate facility limitations? And are they the things that are actually restricting growth or does the issue lie somewhere else? How do you, how are you discerning that when you look at, you know, this, this whole issue?Eric Garza — Yeah, a lot of our of our growth has come from us planting campuses, but some of our growth has come from, I guess, what the corporate world calls mergers and acquisitions, where we’ve merged or really acquired other ministries who either had an existing facility that we took over. Or where we partnered with them through the acquisition and launched a campus in a new building or a new facility.Eric Garza — So some of the things that we’ve done is, there’s a whole process, right, that that it’s entailed with going multisite. And one of those big key indicators of whether the campus or the church plant is going to succeed is whether they have a sustainable facility that can house all aspects of the ministry. And sometimes that can be difficult to find.Eric Garza — For example, you don’t just want meeting space to have services, right? You need maybe an office space, you need childcare space, you need a meeting space, you need lobby, restrooms, you need adequate parking. And all of those factors come into play when you’re looking to find the right spaces. So for us, We’ve just been blessed that ah either we’ve have you know gone through the capital campaigns, we’ve gone through the funding, the you know internal funding to build new facilities, or the acquisition that we’ve ah done over the last couple of years already had an existing facility, which is a plus. Because instead of building, we just went into a remodel phase to bring that building up to what we would call our Cross-standard to house our campus and facility. And so I mean it’s It’s a holistic approach. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.Eric Garza — You look at parking, kids space. What you don’t want to do and what what we’ve run into in the past, is it’s okay to to launch with limited space, but if you’re launching and you already have a couple of hundred people that are gathered, you’re going to want to find a space that’s going to give you ample room to have one or two services without having to crunch yourself in the short term. And it’s going to, in in in a larger sense, going to really facilitate some challenge and some angst and frustrations early on. And you want to minimize as much of that, especially when you’re when you’re launching and you’re setting out to start a new campus or a new church.Rich Birch — Yeah, so that’s one of those kind of pinch points would be too small, right? Like I’m assuming you’ve ended up in facilities where it’s like, okay, this is this just frankly is too small. Eric Garza — It’s not going to work. Rich Birch — And so we’ve got to, it’s not going to work. We’re going have to start with three services and that, you know, or something like that. Or we’ll start with two and we’ll be pinched too quickly. Are there any other kind of tripwires that you’ve run into that are like, oh, like it might be great on these five things, but this, these, if it’s not these two or three, if these aren’t right, we were not going in there. Are there any other things to get to, as you said, a sustainable facility? Are there any kind of big no-nos that you’ve bumped into, or maybe you wish you knew before? Yeah. Tell me about that.Eric Garza — Yeah, a couple of things. Number one is don’t ah start a church next to the railroad tracks. That may sound a little funny.Rich Birch — No, tell me more.Eric Garza — You never know that during your Sunday morning message at your 10 o’clock service, roughly about 10:40 a.m., this train… Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Eric Garza — …who’s two or three blocks away is going to come blaring out ah and just completely disrupt your sound and and your service and your message for a few minutes. So it may sound comical, but ah yeah, definitely don’t do that. Right.Rich Birch — No, that’s very good.Eric Garza — Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s well, and even going and seeing, that’s a great takeaway because even going and seeing the facility during a Sunday morning, like, cause you wouldn’t know that if you’re there to just Tuesday afternoon or something, you would have no sense of that. Eric Garza — Yeah.Rich Birch — But, but cause it might be a train, but there’s, I could see lots of things where.Eric Garza — Trains are not confined to Monday through Friday.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Eric Garza — They’re there every day as they need. And so you just you just never know. That has to happen a couple of times, and it’s incredibly frustrating. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s interesting. That’s good.Eric Garza — And so you play it off the middle of the service, but man, it can it can mess it could mess with some stuff. The second thing I would say is is this when looking for a facility. There’s obviously some innate some internal perhaps pressure or self-imposed pressure as a pastor or an executive to want to get into a permanent facility right away.Eric Garza — One of the things that helped us early on with with a couple of our campuses is we actually rented. And here’s the benefit of renting or leasing, even for a year or two, as you grow that site is number one, you’re not worried about insurance, right? You’re not worried about lawsuits. You’re not worried about maintenance or you’re paying for that, right? But there’s a lot that you minimize when it comes to overloading your mind and your brain about what you have to handle.Rich Birch — Yep. Eric Garza — Alright. And so you pay a fee, but the building’s clean when you come in. And right after you set, you know, you tear down your equipment for the service in your kids area, you don’t have to worry about that because you’re leasing a space. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Eric Garza — And so if you can minimize, like I said, as much of the overload of operations and facilities on the front end, that’s that’s a great a great thing. And most spaces, right, what we did early on is if we had an event center where we would rent the main auditorium uh we would use conference rooms or or multi-purpose room for child care. We would safe proof them, right – all of our protocols in place. But that’s what we would do early on, and it would give us a chance to test and gather some data. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Eric Garza — Is this going to work long term? Right. Number one, we don’t believe we missed God. But if after a couple of years, this isn’t going anywhere. Well, thank God we didn’t buy a building… Rich Birch — Right. Eric Garza — …because now we’re you know up a creek without a paddle, as they say. And so leasing is not is not an entirely bad idea on the early outset.Rich Birch — No, that’s great.Eric Garza — But definitely the neighborhood that you’re in, right beside the town that you’re in, you want to be in a centrally as centrally as you can, centrally located as you can, and and not next to a railroad track or any industry or warehouses where there’s going to be trucks, just for safety concerns, for the curbside appeal. And so that’s why public libraries or where we had actually launched started campuses was at a public library – acoustic set because we couldn’t be so loud. So all of those facility concerns are are really things you want to keep in mind.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of the rental on the front end. What a great way to, it’s good use of capital. It’s a good, you know, it it gives you a chance to test… Eric Garza — Yeah. Rich Birch — …even if you stay for a couple of years, that’s, you know, that’s fantastic. So you’ve been through multiple, you know, capital campaigns, this whole process of like, we’ve got to raise money and then get a facility renovated or, you know, you know, expanded or whatever. Rich Birch — What, what do you wish you would have known before all that? Well, are there a couple like things that either, you know, you stumbled upon, you stubbed your toe or you wish, man, I wish somebody would have told me this. Are there any things that stand out to you?Eric Garza — Number, I think the first one is this. You have an you have a number in your mind, and you of course you believe God for it. It…Rich Birch — And it’s lower. It’s going to come in lower every time.Eric Garza — …it is. Every single, unless God does a miracle, which he is more than able to do… Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Garza — …it’s going to come in lower. And so I think have have high anticipation but realistic expectations… Rich Birch — Right. Eric Garza — …because most capital campaigns are campaigns that are above normal giving.Rich Birch — Yeah. Okay. Yep.Eric Garza — Right. And so at least for us, it’s above normal giving. Rich Birch — Yep.Eric Garza — We encourage and we get people to give towards a specific capital campaign, which is for a specific campus or a specific project or or what have you. But you have this number in mind and then if you can tend to early on. It’s not coming in yet. Or maybe you’ve done it for a year or give a specific timeline.Rich Birch — I see. Okay. Yep.Eric Garza — And you can get quickly discouraged, especially with capital campaigns where you’re like, we’re halfway through this thing and not even half has come in yet, or of what we thought would come in. And so it’s easier to get discouraged. But that was a big thing is that number in your mind, it’s going to be lower. And that’s not a bad thing. Right. That’s not a bad thing.Eric Garza — People are giving to a capital campaign above giving of their normal giving, sacrificially, they’re giving by faith. They’re giving with expectation. But at the same time, for those of us on the inside, right, those of us who are managing the resources and what have you, it’s it’s about having a realistic expectation that we have the faith that God can do it. But we’re all going to budget ourselves knowing that if there’s a high probability, not impossible, there’s a high probability that the number we had in mind, is not going to be what comes in for the capital campaign.Rich Birch — Let’s talk about that there. So there’s an interesting, um so I’ve seen that for sure in churches. There’s an interesting kind of tension that pulls in two different directions. One, you can have exactly what you’re talking about, which is, you know, we thought we would go in, we we were hoping we would raise X and we raised something less than that. Eric Garza — Yeah. Rich Birch — But then the other part of it is we were hoping the project was going to cost X and it costs X plus, you know, it’s costing us more than, than we anticipated. How do you manage that tension? How have you been able to kind of navigate that? That’s a, that’s a tough tension.Eric Garza — Yeah, the longevity of the capital campaign is gonna is not always going to be exactly match, it’s not going, rather, to exactly match what the building construction cost was at the beginning. Prices fluctuate and prices change.Eric Garza — And so let’s say you have let’s use so a rough even number, a million dollar capital campaign for your church organization. And the construction is going to cost, I don’t know, $900,000, $950,000. Well, a million dollars should cover it. But by the time a million dollars or shortly or short of that comes in, well, your budget is now at 1.2 or 1.3. Rich Birch — Right. Eric Garza — It’s fluctuated. And so the what’s congruent at the beginning can be really a little bit financially off by the time that can…In other words, the timelines of the capital campaign and your building projects sometimes don’t align perfectly. And we’ve run into that too, where we’ve had to take from our operating budget a little bit, or we’ve had to really emphasize a certain amount during the campaign, because that’s what needs to come in. We’ve you know met with with key givers and donors of the church. And those are challenges that you navigate ah during the capital campaign process. Rich Birch — Sure. Eric Garza — And and like I said earlier, it’s it’s challenging because, well, let me backtrack and say this.Eric Garza — This is why on the front end, you should add margin into your capital campaign… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Eric Garza — …which we didn’t do that, perhaps the first go around. But certainly the later ah seasons, we added margin in our capital campaigns to account for any fluctuation in construction costs. And if there was ever in a surplus, well, we would tell the church it’s because of your giving and because of your support and generosity that we had more than enough come in. Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Garza — And so now we’re going to use those funds for X or they’re going to go back to the general fund or or whatever whatever the case. But I think that the key that would be to incorporate some 10 to 15% margin in your capital campaign on the outset to account for anything that might happen 12, 15, 18 months down the road.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s really good. That’s good. You maybe just saved somebody a lot of headache two years from now… Eric Garza — Yeah. Rich Birch — …because of that part of the conversation. I want to go back to something you talked about earlier. You’ve had multiple buildings that you’ve acquired or you’ve merged with, and you were talking about remodeling and there’s like, that can be a blessing and a curse. Like it can be amazing. Like, wow, this is great. And…Eric Garza — You never know what you’re going to find.Rich Birch — …you know, you open up, you open up a wall and who knows what’s behind that wall. And, you know, there’s all that. And you talked about bringing it up to the Cross standard. Talk me through what how have you decided what that is? What is the Cross standard? And how do you what are the common things that you find, Oh, we’ve got to make this change. And how have you kind of defined that as you think about projects like that?Eric Garza — Yeah, so over the last few years, we’ve pretty much honed in on, I guess, the vibe and the look of what we want our campuses to to feel and look like.Rich Birch — Okay.Eric Garza — They may be different ah floor plans because some of them we built, some of them we acquired, properties we took over. But as far as color schemes, we do our very best to match wall colors, sanctuary colors. We use the same stage equipment, both branding and layout as best as possible across all of our sanctuary auditoriums, our stages. Eric Garza — Our kids spaces, ah we have an internal ratio of how many teachers or volunteers per infants, per toddlers, for school-age children we want. And so that determines our spacing. And so sometimes we’ve got to knock some walls down or build some walls in to accommodate for for what, like I said, our standard of ministry, both in appeal, but also in care for for our congregants and for our families.Eric Garza — And so when we remodel, you’re right, there’s some things that once you knock down a wall, you’re not going to know until you knock it down. And that’s where that, you know, that margin comes in. But for the most part, right, we’ve had we do inspections, we get we get third party opinions on the building, on the cost estimates, and like we would encourage anybody to do, right.Eric Garza — But that’s our Cross standard is the look, the feel, the equipment, the wall colors, you know is there enough space for our our guests, connect area, our next steps area for first impressions. Does every ministry have adequate space to store their items – all of those factors come into play in deciding how we’re going to remodel a facility. Eric Garza — And I’ll say the second thing is this is why before you break or before you knock down a wall, get an inspector or or get some people either in your church or in the construction industry or somebody that you know in in your community. Because sometimes when you have a building, your initial thought is to remodel. That may not always be the most financial financially wise decision. And here’s why. Because you may not know all that you’re going to encounter, you may in the long run end up spending just as much as if you had built a brand new facility with the exact floor plan you want.Eric Garza — And so that’s where you’re evaluating and deciding, is it more feasible to remodel this building for X amount of dollars? Or are we within 5% to 10% budget margin, where we might just say it’s it’s in the best interest of the church perhaps to use either this facility as collateral for our next building or a brand new building, or is it better to use it a multisite building, excuse me, multi-purpose building, and we end up building a new facility…Rich Birch — Right.Eric Garza — …for the church or for the campus. And so those cost estimates are going to help you make the best, most informed decision of where you’re going to steward the resources financially in either remodeling or in building a site.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. One of my favorite churches, Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina, they they had a building that was given to them and they did, they weren’t entirely sure what to kind of, it was in a part of town, they weren’t necessarily sure they wanted to launch a campus and just they had a campus closer and all that. And they ended up using it turned it into a really a student center and it’s a fantastic ministry building and it’s active, you know, five, six days a week.Rich Birch — Now they don’t do Sunday morning services there, but they do all kinds of other stuff, which is fantastic. Like is a great, you know…Eric Garza — And we’ve seen that too. Yeah. They use for leadership meetings, for small chapel receptions… Rich Birch — Yeah. Eric Garza — …or gatherings or next gen events, youth, young adults, even renting it out to the community as a means to supply income to the church…Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. On a daycare or something.Eric Garza — …to like, you know aligned organizations, of course, whatever your church policy is. But yeah, sometimes the best use of that building is not for church services.Rich Birch — Have you, have you run into facilities that you’ve evaluated and then decided, no like this is going to cost way too much to renovate and we’re, so we won’t go forward with it. Have you run into that after evaluation?Eric Garza — Well, not entirely, but I’ll say this…recent… Rich Birch — I know that risk is there for sure.Eric Garza — Yeah, there is risk. There is risk. And the risk assessment is different when you’re leasing a space or remodel… Rich Birch — Right. Eric Garza — …and when you’re when you’re obviously building your own facility, as far as and including the costs associated with that. One of our campuses recently, and I mean in the last 24 months, before we moved into our new building was leasing a space and we were given the option to remodel the space we were leasing. Because though it was suitable for what we needed for the ministry, for Sunday services and and all the other ministries, parts of it were not really conducive to growth for the congregation and for the ministry.Eric Garza — So we did contemplate remodeling. I think I think what kept us from doing that number one is whatever you remodel for the landlord the landlord is going up keeping. And so the return on that investment would be short term and not long term, We were already in the midst of building our building but we were growing at a rapid rate, and so we were eight, twelve months out from from being in our building and the campus was growing, and so we needed a short-term solution. Rich Birch — Right.Eric Garza — So we did think, Well, we’ll spend X amount of dollars to remodel our site where we’re leasing before we get into the new building. But we found out that shifting our service times and and doing different different strategies ended up alleviating in the short term the constraints we had to give us a time to get into our new building, which is now more than enough space for us to grow for for years and years to come.Rich Birch — Right. That’s cool. Yeah. Cause I’ve said as a, I feel like I’ve been in a ton of conversations with XPs where, you know, they’re talking about this issue and you know, there’s like a building that they’re, maybe it’s another church that’s come to them and they’re having a conversation and they’re, I would say their mindset is like, I’m not sure we should do this. Like this is, they’re like, this other church came to us and statistically, actually the most likely for these mergers to succeed are when the joining church comes to the lead church. Eric Garza — Yeah.Rich Birch — So they would come to your church and be like, Hey, we’re interested. So it actually happens a fair amount. And I’ve, I feel like I’ve talked, tried to talk so many executive pastors into like, man, it’s gotta be a really bad building. If particularly if it’s like has debt or has no debt or very little debt on it, it’s gotta be a very bad building to not want to take it. Cause it’s like, you know, you can, you can take, invest, you know, a moderate amount of money. You don’t need to dump a ton into it and get something great. And like you said, as long as you’re above board with everybody, you know, five years from now, if it doesn’t work, you could take that asset, sell it and move on and use those resources somewhere else.Eric Garza — And that’s very good because when you talk about acquiring a ministry, especially if it has a low balance on their mortgage or or they don’t have much to pay off the building, and if you’re in a position to pay that off within the first year of acquiring the ministry… Rich Birch — Right. Eric Garza — …think of a collateral and the equity that your organization now has because of that new facility that’s in your portfolio.Rich Birch — 100%.Eric Garza — And I know it sounds very business-minded, but when you’re looking to expand into the future, even at another site in your church ministry organization, you now have more collateral, more resources to leverage for a better financial position in the future when you do want to actually build a building. Eric Garza — And the second thing is this, if you’re acquiring a ministry that already has an existing building, in most cases, it’s already built out for church purposes. So that’s very helpful. So at that point, you may be putting in a smaller amount and just… Rich Birch — Right. Eric Garza — …you know, refurbishing it, painting the walls, putting some new equipment, some new screens, maybe be changing out the flooring a little bit, or some of the fixtures in different spaces… Rich Birch — There’s technology or whatever, yep. Eric Garza — …because it’s already built out for a church. And so that’s the benefit of going or acquiring in a ministry if you’re going that route that already has an existing facility.Rich Birch — Yeah, we had, ah we were running, our budget was about $8 million dollars and we were, we had a church come to us and they were, they had really, they had had a tough season and the summer before we ended up merging with them or they joined us really, they had multiple Sundays where they had two people show up on Sunday. They had the person that was preaching and the guy that was opening the door, like it was, it had really atrophied down.Rich Birch — And I remember in one of those conversations, they had had a bit of a roof problem. The facility was worth just probably south of 2 million. It was like ah a great facility, but they had a roof problem. And I remember one of the the elders leader person, he said, you know, we we got a quote on the roof and it’s it’s going to cost maybe about $15,000 to fix. Do you think you guys will be able to fix that? And they had no debt and were going to give us their building. Rich Birch — Well, like I humbly had to say like, like, yeah, we’ll we’ll be okay. Like, it’s gonna it’s gonna be fine. Like, you know, I what I didn’t want to say is like, I feel like our youth guys have like wasted $15,000 this year. Like, you know, like it’s like we can, you know, the exchange just on paper. And again, that’s not why you go into those conversations. Eric Garza — Of course.Rich Birch — But a part of that is, particularly in our seats as executive pastors, that’s a part of what we have to wrestle through and think about those things. So let’s get back to the renovation thing. A lot of what churches were talking about is like, pressure of like, man, I just, our physical facilities are, are holding us back. Rich Birch — Any other thoughts around, you know, changes you’ve made to increase capacity or, um you know, things that maybe are like some low hanging fruit or creative solutions that have that, that maybe we’re not thinking about, but as a leader who’s been through this, you know, you’ve been, you’ve wrestled through that, that we, we could, you know, benefit from.Eric Garza — Yeah, absolutely. A couple of things. You can please everybody, right? Rich Birch — That’s good. Eric Garza — And so I think one of the ministry pressures well, we want to please the next gen. We also want to please the child care. We also want to please the elders of the church. And we also want to please the younger families of the church and young professionals. And when you’re when you’re in a facility that wasn’t originally built according to your specs, it’s going to be difficult to do that.Eric Garza — And so you have to focus, as we have, on the most critical areas, sanctuary and child care. If you don’t have child care, it’s going to be a barrier to growth because families or parents are not going to have the comfort level they need to come to your church on a regular basis and to be a part of the community. And so for us, when we’ve remodeled, the first things we look at are sanctuary and then the kid space. Do we have enough adequate kids space?Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Garza — Some of the solutions when we’ve been limited in space is is launching multiple services to we have a smaller sanctuary or a smaller space, we’ll offer more service opportunities. Or when it comes to our kids ministry, we’ve evaluated with our kids directors and our our kids department of how can we best merge age groups to maximize the space that we have. So if you have right an ideal facility where you have you know your child your child care divided by grade level or age level, sometimes you have the amenity to do that and many times you don’t. And so what we’ve done is instead of having first grade on their own, maybe we’ll put you know kindergarten and first grade level kids together.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Eric Garza — We’ll put second and third together, fourth and fifth together as a way to consolidate because we don’t have the space that we prefer to have, at least in this season. And so for us, sometimes you’re not watering down in essence, the content, the quality, but you are consolidating in the short term or even medium term… Rich Birch — Right. Eric Garza — …if you will, if that’s even a term, to make adequate space for the constraints that you may have. Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Garza — And so you have 600 members and you only have 200-seat sanctuary, 250. Well, that’s an opportunity for three services. Rich Birch — Right.Eric Garza — Is that is that is that Is that a strain? Well, it can be if you see it from core perspective versus a perspective of, Man, we’re so large and we have the space. You know, one of our core values at our church is excellence. And we’ve defined excellence as not having the best, but doing the best with what you have.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Eric Garza — So we may not have a thousand seat auditorium for this growing congregation, but what we do have, we’re going utilize it and steward it to our best ability. So if that means two or three services, well, God give us the strength and the people to manage and to lead and to execute three strong services every weekend, or every Sunday, in order to meet the need of the congregation that we have.Eric Garza — And and I think one of the biggest things, Rich, is also communicating this. It’s keeping them current, right. You’re not going to go into all the details per se, unless that’s your preference and that’s your senior pastor’s prerogative. But to share with them the overarching theme of, hey, here’s where we’re at as a ministry. Here’s our facility. And here’s what we’re going to do to continue to offer as best a ministry as we can, while at the same time being cognizant of the challenges that we’re facing.Eric Garza — We said this to our staff and to our church many times, is we don’t look at obstacles as negatives. We look at obstacles as opportunities. Okay.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Eric Garza — If this is what we have, how can we be as excellent as possible with what we have? If that means going to a third service, well, then we’re going to give it a shot because what we don’t want to do is allow facility constraints to translate into diminished capacity or into a diminishing congregation and I’m talking about numerically. Because the diminishing congregation numerically also means a diminishing budget and revenue financially because you have less givers in the seats. And that’s those are some of the challenges that you got navigate so we don’t see it as obstacles. We don’t see obstacles necessarily as a challenge we see that’s an opportunity of okay how can we navigate around this mountain if you will to continue to provide as excellent a ministry as we can.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love your example of the kids age size rooms. Because I think you’ve you’re articulating a tension that whenever we’re, particularly for launching we talked a lot about this, like renovating other spaces and new campuses and all that, where I think really is germane to our job as executive pastor to to manage this tension of we want it feel, you know, the language you used was Cross standard. It’s absolutely has got to be Cross standard, but there will be areas where we’re going to have to compromise. Like that is just true. And a part of what we have to do, we have to use our leadership and our discernment and, you know, get the right players in the room and have the conversation. And, you know, somebody using your example, somebody kids’ ministry to be like, no, we can’t combine them together. That’ll be terrible. And it’s like, we’re going to be fine. Like, we’ll figure it out, you know. Eric Garza — Yeah [inaudible].Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s going to be okay. We’ll we’ll help that navigate. And that’s one example, but there’s a ton of those that can come up in these, you know, in these renovations for sure.Eric Garza — Yeah, absolutely.Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Garza — and And people are always going to have opinions. Rich Birch — Right.Eric Garza — But I’ll say this from experience. And I mean, no ill intent towards anybody in your congregation or your ministry.Rich Birch — No.Eric Garza — Most of the people that are criticizing are the people that aren’t giving anyway. And so I’m not saying ignore them by any means. They’re part of your part of your ecosystem. They’re part of your church, they’re part of your flock.Rich Birch — Yep. That’s very true.Eric Garza — But it’s always with a grain of salt because the people that are really bought into your ministry are going to walk through those opportunities alongside you, ah hopefully with the best attitude that they possibly can muster up because this too shall pass.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Garza — Right.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Garza — If you’ve gone out in faith to plant or to grow or to expand your congregation, this is a temporary season. It’s not a permanent season. You won’t always be at three or four services, right? Or multiple services.Eric Garza — At some point, if God is in this and you really believe He is, and I believe He is for many organizations and ministries, the timing will be right when you have a facility that can house what you need, or that can provide the amenities and space that you need. And so for parents, for givers, for guests, it is just letting them know as best you can, even subtly through announcements or even messages and say, hey, we’re in a season of growth and expansion. Growth doesn’t always look you know perfect. And so we have seasons where we’re going to navigate some some challenges and opportunities as best we can to get us to an end goal.Eric Garza — This is a means to an end. What we’re going through is a means to get us to where we want to go as a ministry. And as long as you keep it at the forefront, tying it into the vision of the house, you’re going to see that in a large sense, you’re going to have people rally behind that idea and unfocused, if you will, from the constraints of their of the facility to the broader appeal of what God is doing in the ministry.Rich Birch — Yeah, that is so good. Friends, you should go back and re-listen to what Eric just said there. That is some wise advice. And obviously from somebody that’s been in the trenches a lot, that’s been my experience as well. The people, the complainers, I’m reading through the book of Job right now. And I’m like, man, his friends are just like, this guy needs better friends.Eric Garza — Yeah.Rich Birch — And that that reminded me of the people you’re talking about. Like…Eric Garza — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, there’s these people who are just, you know, sniping from the cheap seats and they’re not really engaged in the mission where, man, those people that are right on in the middle of it, they’re like, let’s go, let’s lean in.Rich Birch — And man, that’s the kind of person, I’m hoping as I transition into older age that I’m that person, you know, because we have a number of those people at our church that I look at that are like, these are incredible saints who have seen so much change. And who I’m sure lots of things annoy them, but they’re fired up for the mission. They’re excited in our case to reach unchurched people, to see people who far from Jesus connected.Eric Garza — If you’re not changing, you’re not making progress, right? Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. And the fact you the fact that your ministry is facing opportunities or obstacles rather disguised as opportunities is proof positive you’re going somewhere. Rich Birch — Yeah.Eric Garza — You’re not a stagnant ministry. You’re not a you’re not a lazy ministry, right? You’re not apathetic. You’re really out in the field of vision that God has given you or to your senior leadership. And so it’s proof positive, right? And so take that as an badge of honor in some way to say, we must be doing something right.Rich Birch — So good. Well, Eric, just as we’re coming to kind of land, this has been a great conversation, hopefully been helpful for you, friends, as you’ve have been listening in. But as we kind of come to land today’s conversation, what’s a question or two that that you’re kicking around for this year at at Cross as you’re thinking about 2026? Where’s your head at? What are the things you’re wondering? It doesn’t have to be about this, could be anything.Eric Garza — Yeah, well, ah thanks for letting me speak into that, Rich. I think for me as an executive and looking at our ministry, you know, looking at the previous 30 years and looking at the next decade, if you will, of where God is going to take our ministry, being one of America’s fastest growing churches, being the largest bilingual Hispanic-led ministry in the country. We’ve, you know, like I’ve said in a previous episode with you, we haven’t had any precedent for us in our context. And so we’ve navigated a lot of uncharted waters and learned from both wins and losses and different opportunities and struggles to get us to where we’re at now. Eric Garza — I think one of the biggest questions facing the church at large in 2026 is how the church is going to respond to the ever increasingly fast-paced changes that we’re seeing on the political front, on the cultural front. I’m not saying that the church has to be a political response. The church has to be, has to provide a biblical response to what we’re seeing.Rich Birch — Yep. Eric Garza — And with the fast paced nature of culture and society and trends, I don’t believe it’s the church’s responsibility to respond to every trend or to everything, but certainly the overarching elements of our current culture and political dynamic where there is a biblical either mandate or precedent for it, that the church would speak it into that and provide biblical perspective… Rich Birch — That’s good. Eric Garza — …and and and wisdom for how people should think about certain topics that have a biblical or moral prerogative. And so navigating that as an organization, because as a growing church and being such a large ministry, if you can imagine the opinions. We have people in our church who are conservative and who some who are not. We have people who belong to one political party over another. We’re in multiple communities. And so different communities have different demographics, different cultural contexts, different policy initiatives. There’s a lot going on.Eric Garza — And as a church ministry, especially as that we’re multisite, one of the biggest questions I’m asking myself and our team is how do we, number one, stay biblically founded, right? And unwavering in what the biblical standard is.Eric Garza — Number two is how do we address the different things and different occurrences in different communities that we’re in? If we were just one site and one community, well, then we would just be I guess you could say in our own little space and our own little focus. But we have multisites, so we have multi-focus, if you will, at how we continue to provide as excellent a ministry as possible… Rich Birch — That’s good. Eric Garza — …keeping Jesus at the forefront, above the fray, and at the same time, giving a biblical perspective so that people have the right biblical worldview for how to walk out their journey of faith their relationship with Christ, but at the same time, how to respond to what’s happening in our world. I think for many times, for for many years, really for decades, the church has abdicated its biblical responsibility, if you will, to speak into things, not from a political perspective, but from a biblical perspective.Eric Garza — And because that abdication of responsibility we’ve seen a lot of things that have happened. Thankfully, in recent seasons, in recent years, we’ve seen a a shift where faith is now at the forefront. And so though I have that question, my biggest, I guess you could say prerogative is to leverage that people are focused more on faith, that people are open to faith now more so in our country, that people are focused more on this person of Jesus and is to leverage that as an opportunity to really hone in and speak into people’s hearts and minds and into the different communities that we’re in so that they have the right biblical perspective, the biblical worldview to carry out what God has enabled them or called them to do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love I love what you’re saying there. And you know I know had a friend say, you know if you’re, you know, we we all are serving in a context. We serve in a particular time, in a particular cultural context, and God’s called us to lead in that context. And if you’re not feeling the pull from, you know, multiple sides, multiple polarities, you’re like, well, everybody here agrees with me then it means you’re not actually reaching your community, you know. And the fact that you’re feeling that tension means, okay, like there’s there’s people from a wide variety of, and it can be all different political is one, but there’s lots of different ways to think of that.Eric Garza — Yeah.Rich Birch — And yeah, that’s that’s so true. I really appreciate this. Well, Eric, you’re you’re a blessing to us. I thank you so much for for giving us time today and helping us think about these things as we kick off into 2026. If where do we want to send people if they want to track with you or with the church?Rich Birch — How do we how do we want to get people connected to Cross?Eric Garza — Yeah, well, Rich, thanks for the opportunity. And it’s what a blessing for us and for me personally to be able to just share some thoughts. And if it helps anybody, well, praise God for that. I think if you want to follow the church, we’re crosschurchonline.com or crosschurchrgv on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, all of, you know, most of the social media platforms.Eric Garza — If you want to connect with me, I’d be happy to connect with you at Eric, E-R-I-C-P Garza on any of social media platforms. It’d be a h privilege for me to help you guys and to share some thoughts and even answer questions. I’d be more than happy to do that. If I can serve your ministries in any way, by all means, feel free to reach out to me on any of the social media platforms.Rich Birch — Nice. Thanks so much, Eric. Really appreciate being here today, sir. Thank you. Eric Garza — Thank you, man. God bless. Appreciate it.

Leading Into 2026: Executive Pastor Insights Momentum is real. So is the pressure. This free report draws from the largest dedicated survey of Executive Pastors ever, revealing what leaders are actually facing as they prepare for 2026. Why staff health is the #1 pressure point Where churches feel hopeful — and stretched thin What worked in 2025 and is worth repeating Clear decision filters for the year ahead Download the Full Report Free PDF • Built for Executive Pastors • Instant access Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re sitting down with an executive pastor from a prevailing church to unpack what leaders like you shared in the National Executive Pastor Survey so you can lead forward with clarity. In today’s episode, we’re joined by Kayra Montañez, Executive Pastor at Liquid Church in New Jersey. Liquid is a fast-growing multisite church with six campuses stretching from Princeton to communities just outside New York City. In this conversation, Kayra helps unpack one of the biggest concerns surfaced in the National Executive Pastor Survey: the growing gap between attendance and engagement. While many churches are seeing people return, far fewer leaders feel confident that those people are truly connected, discipled, and serving. Is your church seeing full rooms but thin volunteer pipelines? Are you unsure how engaged people really are beyond weekend services? Kayra offers practical insight into why that gap exists—and what churches can do to close it. Attendance is up, engagement is unclear. // Kayra begins with encouragement. Across the country, churches are seeing renewed spiritual openness. People are coming with expectancy, ready to encounter God. At the same time, many leaders sense a disconnect between attendance and belonging. Kayra identifies several common gaps: people attending without joining “people systems” like groups or teams; online attenders remaining anonymous without a clear bridge to community; seasonal attenders who show up for Christmas and Easter but never return; and potential volunteers who are open to helping but hesitant to commit long-term. These patterns aren't unique to Liquid—they're widespread across the church landscape. From prescribed paths to personalized journeys. // One of Liquid's biggest shifts has been moving away from a rigid, one-size-fits-all connection pathway. Kayra compares the old model to the video game Mario Brothers, where everyone must follow the same prescribed path or “die.” Instead, Liquid now operates more like Zelda: a choose-your-own-adventure approach that honors people's seasons, needs, and interests. Rather than telling people where they must plug in, the church focuses on learning what people actually want and helping them find a meaningful next step. Connect and Conversation. // This shift comes to life through a monthly experience called Connect and Conversation, hosted at every campus after the final service. New and not-yet-connected attendees are invited to a meal where they sit at tables with others like them and facilitators. The event begins with relational icebreakers to help people connect naturally, then moves into guided conversation around what attendees are looking for—community, care, serving, support groups, or spiritual growth. Facilitators take detailed notes, which drive personalized follow-up in the weeks ahead. Kayra describes it as “high-touch, concierge-style ministry,” and the results have been significant movement from attendance into engagement. Measuring what matters. // Liquid tracks what happens after people attend Connect and Conversation—not to claim direct causation, but to see correlation. They monitor whether participants join groups, teams, or discipleship environments in the following months. That data has helped the church refine pathways and remove unnecessary friction. Kayra encourages leaders to examine two key metrics: how many first-time guests take any next step within 30 days, and what percentage move into a people system within 60–90 days. These numbers often reveal where engagement breaks down. Reimagining discipleship. // One surprising insight at Liquid came from surveying the congregation about small groups. While relational connection mattered, the top desire was biblical literacy. In response, Liquid “blew up” its traditional small-group model and launched a new midweek Bible study format called Deep Dive. Rather than prioritizing relationships first, these environments put Scripture front and center, with connection as a natural byproduct. The pilot—an in-depth study of Revelation—drew hundreds of participants and revealed a deep hunger for understanding God's Word. Rebuilding volunteer momentum. // Like many churches, Liquid faced a volunteer crisis as growth outpaced serving capacity—especially in kids' environments. In response, the church launched a short-term campaign called For the One, built around a “try before you buy” serving model. New volunteers could serve a few times with a shortened onboarding process (without compromising safety) and then decide whether to commit long-term, scoring exclusive team swag. More than 400 people stepped in to serve, helping stabilize teams and reignite volunteer culture. Short-term fixes and long-term culture. // Kayra emphasizes that engagement is both a systems problem and a culture challenge. Churches need short-term solutions to address immediate gaps, but long-term health comes from storytelling, celebration, appreciation, and consistently casting vision for why serving and community matter. Engagement doesn't happen accidentally—it's cultivated intentionally over time. To learn more about Liquid Church, visit liquidchurch.com, or connect with Kayra directly via email. Watch the full episode below: Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got a special episode on today where we’re diving into some of the results from the National Executive Pastor Survey. And today we’re super excited to have Kayra Montañez with us from Liquid Church in New Jersey. Rich Birch — And today we’re talking all about engagement. One of the things that jumped out, well, one of the top tier results, kind of concerns that came out, 10% of executive pastors in the open questions, expressed fear around discipleship death depth and volunteer sustainability. At the same time, nearly 12% said they lacked really visibility into participation and involvement data. Another 6% pointed specifically to volunteer and team metrics really being an unmet need, not knowing where they are. Rich Birch — So what does that all that mean? Roughly one in five executive pastors are entering 2026 this year, wondering really how engaged their churches are. And Kayra is going to solve all that for us. So Kayra, welcome to the show. Tell us about Liquid. Tell us a little bit about the church. Kayra Montañez — Well I appreciate the vote of confidence but I’m not sure about that. But, Rich, it’s always so great to be with you and to be a guest on your podcast. Thank you so much for having me. So yes, we are in New Jersey. So our church is called Liquid. I get the incredible privilege of serving there as one of two executive pastors. And we are a multisite church. We have six campuses. If you and know anything about New Jersey, one of them is the furthest one is in Princeton, New Jersey – a lot of people know Princeton. Kayra Montañez — And then probably the closest one that we have up north is closest to New York City, about 30 minutes from the city. So that kind of gives you the breadth and width of how we’re trying to saturate the state of New Jersey with the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is our mission. Rich Birch — So good. And Kayra, I really appreciate you jumping in on on today’s conversation, particularly in this area, because I think, man, have so much to offer. You know, so many of our churches, we feel like the volunteer pipelines are thin. How are we getting? It’s like people are underutilized. Maybe are our follow-up process are like overly complex. And you’ve done a great job on on this area. So let’s just jump right in. Rich Birch — Where do you see some of the biggest gaps today in churches, whether it’s Liquid or other churches you interact, between, you know, getting people to attend church attendance and actual engagement. There’s a gap there. what What’s driving that? What do what do you think drives that gap in our churches? Kayra Montañez — Yeah. So I see a couple of things. But before I get to that, you know, I just really wanted to start with something really encouraging because it’s not in my nature to be discouraging. So one of the things that I have noticed, in fact, I was actually spending some time with other pastors from other states in the U.S. And we were talking about like, hey, what is the Lord doing in the in the Big C Church? What are you experiencing in your context? Rich Birch — So good. Kayra Montañez — And one of the things I think that was a theme for all of us is it feels like we don’t have to work as hard to get people to come and be ready for what the Lord has for them. And that feels very exciting. Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — And that’s like a theme that I’m seeing repeated across the entire nation with all of my pastor friends from different locations. Having said that, there are still things that we have to do to get people from going to just attending to engaging, like you were saying. I think there’s a couple of things that I saw. Kayra Montañez — One of them is a big one, I would say, is like this idea of, attending versus belonging, right. So like first people actually want to come, but they don’t actually join people systems. So they come in person, they come online, but they don’t actually join any kind of people system. So when I say people system I’m thinking about groups, or dream teams, a support group, a class. That’s actually something that we started seeing a lot post-pandemic, and I would say it’s still here. So that’s one gap that I see. Kayra Montañez — The second gap that I see is digital versus relational. So obviously, we at Liquid have spent a lot of, we’ve invested a lot in our digital ministry, and we really believe online and in-person can both thrive at the same time, and we’re seeing that. Kayra Montañez — However, online services, while they can remove barriers, which is good, it also helps people stay anonymous unless there’s a clear bridge for those people to actually join in-person community. And so churches that haven’t figured out well how to do that will continue to see a gap between people who are attending, whether it’s in person or online, but not actually engaging. Kayra Montañez — There’s also the people who just come for big events, right? Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — We’re approaching one of them, even as we film this podcast, next week is Christmas Eve. So we joke at Liquid, we have the CEOs, they come for Christmas, Easter, and other big events, but they don’t actually have a weekly rhythm of attending and engaging. Kayra Montañez — And then there’s people who I would say are curious about serving and for the most part are open to helping, but are not really ready to make a serving commitment and actually take on a very consistent role. So I would say across the breadth and width of churches, that’s probably something that would hit most people, no matter where you are. Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure. Kayra Montañez — Definitely we experience all of them at Liquid. Rich Birch — Yeah, I there was a lot there, in which I appreciate. and i appreciate the way you’ve kind of diagnosed. I think there’s multiple ways to kind of um diagnose or kind of pick apart – Hey, here are different aspects here, or different ways that we’re seeing this kind of attendance versus engagement question. So maybe, you know, pick apart those attending versus belonging. What has Liquid done? What are you doing to try to help move people from just attending, actually getting into those people systems? What does that? What are you learning on that front? Kayra Montañez — Yeah. You know, we’ve had a major shift at Liquid, I would say, in the past two years. The best way that I can explain this is with a gaming analogy, because I have teenagers and they love gaming. Rich Birch — I love it. Kayra Montañez — So if you um go back to when we used to play Mario Brothers, you remember Mario Brothers? Rich Birch — Sure, yeah. Kayra Montañez — Mario Brothers has prescribed path where if you did not follow the path, at some point Mario would die. Like if you stayed behind and the camera kept moving, the character would die. You remember that? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Kayra Montañez — And that’s the way that a lot of churches, even today, approach helping people connect. There is a prescribed path for you, and we’re going to tell you what you need to do and what you have to do. Then Zelda came into the scene and Zelda is like, hey, choose your own adventure. You can start your adventure anywhere you want. Rich Birch — Right. Kayra Montañez — And so I feel like Liquid, we’ve shifted in that. We used to be Mario Brothers, like, hey, here’s a prescribed path for you. Here’s all the things that you have to do to connect. Whereas now we’ve shifted over the past two years into like, hey, we have a lot of things that we can offer you. And there are many different things depending on your season of life, on your felt needs, on what you’re looking for, on what you’re interested in, on what makes your heart beat. Tell us what you want to do and we’re going to help you. Kayra Montañez — And so in order for us to understand what is it that people want, we created an event that we do every month called Connect and Conversation. And the whole idea and the way that we market it is if you’re new to Liquid, or if you are not new, but you haven’t connected yet, you haven’t found your people, you haven’t found something that you want to be a part of, come to this event. Kayra Montañez — We feed you. We get to know you. And then we follow up personally with you. It’s very high level concierge, kind of a follow up system, where after we connect with you, we ask you, hey, what are you actually interested in? What are you looking for? Because your needs as an empty nester who’s been married for over 25 years, you’re parenting adult children who are already married are very different than mine who have two team have two teenagers. Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — One of them is about to go to college, right? Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Kayra Montañez — And so that has actually produced incredible fruit from getting people who are attending. Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — Now I’ve actually offered them something they’re interested in, which is making connections with people. And then from there, we follow up to offer, what do you need? Rich Birch — That’s so cool. Kayra Montañez — And everybody has different needs. Some people just wanna join teams because they’re just like, I just wanna serve. Some people, they really just need a lot of care. And so maybe they need a support group and we’re gonna offer that to you. Kayra Montañez — Some people may need marriage mentoring. We’re gonna offer that to you. So it really depends. And what we’ve seen is people taking significant next steps once they go out of that event. And that has really changed the past. In the past, we would only be marketing teams and groups, role and relationship, join, ah you know, get into a role and connect with a relationship. And while that’s still good, I’m not saying that’s not good or not needed. Rich Birch — Right. Kayra Montañez — It’s not the only thing that people are looking for. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s interesting. Can we, I’d love to dive just a little deeper on on that because I think there’s ah a really key learning there for lots of us. This idea, and you didn’t say it this way, but where my brain went to, you know, I think we have, we have for sure in the past done the thing where it’s like we have these giant funnels that we’re pushing everyone through. Rich Birch — And and the only question we’re really asking is where do you fit in our funnel? Kayra Montañez — Correct. Rich Birch — Like where, You know, and we and we push and literally, and this is no, you know, kind of slam on other systems, but it’s like, this is the, you know, step one, step two, step three, everyone do step one first, then you do step two, then you do step three. Rich Birch — So the the connecting conversation, that feels like highly, like it’s volunteer intensive. You got to get a lot of volunteers in there because it sounds like you’re having one-on-one conversations or something close to one-on-one. Unpack what that looks like. Maybe as a guest, if I arrive at that, what do I actually experience when I show up there? Kayra Montañez — So you you can register up until the time that we have the event. Rich Birch — Yep, that’s great. Kayra Montañez — So we do math you know magical math with the food and and the preparation so that we can just accept people who are going to come on the day of. Because we promote it, obviously, every week. And then the day of, we actually promote it. We get most people to show up the day of the event. Rich Birch — Right, okay. Kayra Montañez — So people will come. There’s going to be a lunch. And then they’re going to sit at a table with about five other people who have a facilitator at that table. Rich Birch — Okay. Kayra Montañez — And that facilitator is actually going to lead them through a series of relational icebreakers because the event is designed for you to first connect. You want to meet other people who are just like you. Maybe they’re new or they’re not new, but they haven’t connected yet with somebody. Rich Birch — That’s good. Kayra Montañez — And so there’s going to be a lot of relational icebreakers you know during the first part of the event. And then after that, we get into like, hey, what are you looking for? What are you hoping to get out of? What do you need? What are you interested in? We make notes. Rich Birch — How can we help? All that kind of stuff. Kayra Montañez — That facilitator takes really good notes based on what people are saying. And then the follow-up begins. Rich Birch — That’s so cool. I love that. That’s what a great learning. You know, I think so many times we’ve seen that step and for sure that echoes what I’ve seen in in a number of churches. There’s really a trend away from the class being the first step. Rich Birch — It’s like the stand that we used to do that thing where it was like, okay, someone stands up at the front and they’re going to talk for 50 minutes about why we’re such a great church. And, ah you know, that really has gone away. I would I would echo that, that we’ve seen that as ah as a best practice for sure. So let’s talk… Kayra Montañez — When we do measure… Rich Birch — Sorry, go ahead. No. Kayra Montañez — …oh sorry, as I was to say, we measure the activity of everyone who goes to Connect in Conversation and what they do. Rich Birch — Oh, that, tell me about that. Kayra Montañez — And so there’s, or ah how we say it at Liquid is it’s correlation, not causation. Like I can’t prove that if you go to this event, your next steps were a direct result of this event… Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Kayra Montañez — …but we can correlate that because you came to the event you actually took these next steps, if that makes sense. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kayra Montañez — So we’ve seen tremendous, tremendous engagement grow because of that. Rich Birch — And that’s on Sundays. You do it on on campus after the last service, that sort of thing. Kayra Montañez — Every month. Yes, every month at every campus after the last service, we promote it up to the day of the event… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Kayra Montañez — …and we do it rain or shine. Whether it’s five people or 10 or 50, obviously at our largest location, sometimes we have about 100 people show up every month to these events. Rich Birch — That’s great. I love that. That’s a great. You’re coming in hot, Kayra. Great learnings, even you know, with friends, we’ve got through the first question. Rich Birch — So yeah, and we’re, you know, it’s fantastic. So one of the one of the things I’d love to hear a little bit about, um you know, that when we look in the data, people’s anxiety, there’s there seems to be some anxiety around or concern around discipling people. We offer these discipleship pathways or engagement pathways. And it’s like, we do this stuff, but then people don’t actually take advantage of it. It’s like, we do, we offer small groups, but people don’t do them. Or people we offer classes and people don’t actually engage on them. Rich Birch —What are you doing to try to move to, to ensure people are actually engaging with the various pathways that you’re developing at Liquid to actually get them to use them? Kayra Montañez — So this is a very interesting question in this particular time because at Liquid we’re just about getting ready to or just ready to ah blow up small groups basically. Rich Birch — Oh, nice. Okay. I’d love to hear more. Kayra Montañez — Yeah, so I would say that small groups was the one metric that did not recover for our church post-pandemic. So even though our volunteer pipelines at times felt thin, we were able to have incredible momentum around that. We can talk more about that later. How did we do that? We recovered in attendance and giving, baptism, but we were not able to crack the code on small groups. We were at an all-time low, about 20% our church… Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Yeah. Kayra Montañez — …was engaged in small groups, pretty low. And so we started surveying people. Rich Birch — Yep. We’re like, what is it that people actually want from the small groups? Like, what is it that we’re not offering that they’re looking for? And the one, it was shocking to us that the number one thing, I mean, it shouldn’t be shocking because we are a church. Kayra Montañez — The number one thing that people wanted was to understand the Bible. So for the first time ever, we have uncoupled relational connection from biblical literacy. In the past, our small groups, the thing that was in the driver’s seat, I would say, was the relational connection. We wanted people to connect, to join a group so that they could make friends, do life together. We used to um promote it that way, if you remember. Do life together. Where are the people that you’re doing life together? Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Kayra Montañez — For the first time ever, we’re actually putting biblical literacy in the front seat and relational connection on the passenger seat. So you will actually make connections, but that’s not the goal of this process right now. The process is for you to actually understand and read and study the word of God. In fact, our new tagline is to know the word of God so that you can love the God of the word. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. And is that so if you change the the container that that fits in or are you changing the like, like… Kayra Montañez — We did. We changed the container. Rich Birch — So what’s that look like? Kayra Montañez — So right now we’re offering people different levels of biblical literacy. Kayra Montañez — The biggest vehicle that we’re that we just piloted this fall through the book of Revelations, if you can believe it. So we’re like, why not start with the hardest book of the Bible? Rich Birch — Yes. Kayra Montañez — And what we did was we created a Bible study midweek on a Wednesday night where people would go in person and study the word of God in tables with other people. Now, obviously there’s facilitators who have been trained and vetted. And once you join a table, that was kind of like the table that you were going to go on this journey with, but it’s not a small group. It’s a, it’s a short term. It was 10 weeks. We went through the entire book of Revelations, 22 chapters. We would do homework in order to get ready for this midweek study, we would come, we would have a conversation around what did you put in question 10? Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — What did I write? This was hard, I don’t understand. And then there was teaching. Kayra Montañez — And we also piloted doing that same thing with our high school students so that parents could actually come with their kids on the same day, drop their high school kiddos in their own cohort, and then they would go to their own biblical midweek you know Bible study. Kayra Montañez — And that was, too, a great success. So we are trying to figure out like what are the appropriate levels of biblical literacy that we can offer a congregation… Rich Birch — That’s so good. Kayra Montañez — …that is increasingly illiterate in biblic in in the Bible. Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — And deep dive, make no mistake, is the highest level. So that’s not for everyone. And we understand that. And so the parts that we’re trying to figure out is what’s like the appropriate next level to that for somebody who’s not willing to come in person 10 weeks to do homework and study, you know, the actual Bible. Kayra Montañez — But, it was fascinating to just uncouple those two things for the first time. And I would say it’s in the right frame of, in the right approach. You’re still making friends. Rich Birch — Yes. Kayra Montañez — You’re just not, that’s just not being the driver. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, I do wonder. So we for sure have seen that. I’ve seen this conversation. I don’t claim to be a small groups expert. I never have. Kayra Montañez — Me neither. Rich Birch — Like for 20, 30 years, it’s always been a mystery to me. I’m like, it’s like hard. It’s a hard system to run and to to build. And, but for sure, post COVID it it is, I would say that’s a universal concern that it’s like, whatever we used to do, I see this all over the place, whatever we used to do to try to get people into groups, we don’t do that anymore. We’re doing something completely different. I happen to be at Liquid this fall. I think you were speaking at a conference when I was there. Bummer… Kayra Montañez — I was, I missed you. Yeah. Rich Birch — And I saw the deep dive. I think that’s what it was called. Kayra Montañez — Yes. Rich Birch — Deep dive that night. And I remember, i remember thinking, I was like, Whoa, this is like, ah this is incredible. Like, you know, I don’t know how many people were there that night. There was a ton of people all lined up and ready to go. I’m like, that’s, That’s cool. I love that. Rich Birch — Well, let’s pivot. You kind of flagged it there, the volunteer piece. Kayra Montañez — Yes. Rich Birch — I’d love to know what you’re learning on this front, you know, to rebuild volunteer culture. We had this kind of, I don’t know when we’ll stop saying post-COVID. I don’t know whether we’ll be like that generation that was like after the like war or like after the depression where like for 40 years we’re going to be talking about it. Rich Birch — But it does still feel like we’re post-COVID. I don’t know when that is. But what have you done to kind of restart? How what’s going well on that front externally? Liquid feels like a incredibly volunteer you know robust culture – help us understand what’s that looking like what are you learning these days? Kayra Montañez — Sure. Yeah. I mean everything you said is still very much a factor. I mean, we are constantly having to work at this. This is never going to be a problem that I feel we’re ever going to solve. It’s really a tension that we’re managing. And sometimes tension feels better and sometimes it doesn’t feel good. Rich Birch — Right. Kayra Montañez — In fact, this year, I would say in March, we probably had like our biggest crisis in the broadcast campus where our church growth so far outpaced the amount of people that were serving that we were finding ourselves having to close rooms for Liquid family… Rich Birch — Ooh. Kayra Montañez — …not because we we hit ratios, but because we didn’t have enough volunteers. And that doesn’t feel great… Rich Birch — No. Kayra Montañez — …especially if you’re a new here family, right? Rich Birch — Yes. Kayra Montañez — And so we were like, all right, we need to do something really aggressive. And the best way that I can explain it is we did like a try before you buy. Rich Birch — Okay. Kayra Montañez — Very low approach… Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — …low hanging fruit. We said, hey, we we casted a vision, right? It’s never about we need volunteers, but we actually told a really significant story of where’s all the fruit that the Lord is bringing to this church, all the spiritual fruit that we’re seeing, like people are getting saved, people are getting baptized, they’re coming to get to know Jesus, they’re studying the Bible. Kayra Montañez — It was incredible. Kayra Montañez — But we need people to use their spiritual gifts. And so we came up with a campaign called For the One. And everything was geared for that one person. Like, who’s who are you going to go serve? Who’s the one that you’re going to go serve? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Kayra Montañez — And the try before you buy was, we’re going to give you a hoodie. We designed a hoodie. It was called, it was, you know, at the tagline For the One. And the key is you only get it after you serve a couple of times. Rich Birch — Okay, that’s cool. Kayra Montañez — So this is the try before you buy. You know, you’re going to try it out. Rich Birch — Yes. You’re not going to go through the whole background, pipeline, covenant process because we need people now and we need them quick. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Kayra Montañez — So you’re trying before you’re buying. But if you like it and we’re going to make sure that first serve experience is incredible for you, then we want you to buy it. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Kayra Montañez — And we’re going to reward you by giving you swag that’s limited, exclusive. Not everybody’s going to get it. Rich, you would be surprised. Like I’m still to this day, i have been at Liquid, it’ll be 13 years in April. And I am still shocked by how much people, the gamification of playing to people’s particular interests… Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Kayra Montañez — …whether it’s FOMO, they don’t want to miss out, whether it’s the idea of collecting exclusive apparel. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Kayra Montañez — There’s something here for everyone that just draws people out. Rich Birch — It’s true. It’s true. Kayra Montañez — We had over 400 people sign up for the one. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. That’s great. Kayra Montañez — It was incredible. And we were able to tell amazing stories of people who were coming and showing up and serving, whether it was our special needs kiddos or high school whatever you want to call it. We had it. And and I would say the appeal of a try before you buy, how can you shortchange without? So this is key. You don’t want to reduce the quality. But you do want to shorten your pipeline so that you can get people quicker to try it. And then once they actually feel like, hey, I really enjoy this, now we’re going to get you through the whole, you know, rest of the process, right? But you can still serve while we do that. Kayra Montañez — So that was a huge thing. And then obviously, you know, like the free apparel swag, that always is a nice incentive to give to people. So that was huge. Rich Birch — It’s true. Kayra Montañez — It was very successful. And that’s what I would recommend is like, hey, can you run, try before you buy little events with like swag, and like you you get you have people serve for a limited amount of time. Like you don’t give them the swag immediately. You make them work for it. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Kayra Montañez — They got to serve three, four times before you give it to them. Rich Birch — Yeah, we did a similar thing last summer. Our kids ministry team did a similar thing last summer where we did the summer serve, which we hadn’t done in in actually a number of years. And they they pulled that out and did summer serve. And it was the same thing. If you signed up, you got a t-shirt, a specific t-shirt for that. Rich Birch — And then you, there was, they basically were asking you to serve once in June, once in July, once in August, like once a month, just for the summertime. And if you served, um I forget exactly what the ratio was, but it was, you got entered in a draw for however many times. And basically, so if you served all three, you got like 10 times the number of draw things to win. And it was all this stuff that you, you could win. And it was like really great gifts. Kayra Montañez — Yes. Rich Birch — And you would think that that should not motivate people. Kayra Montañez — But it does. Rich Birch — But it does. Kayra Montañez — It does. Rich Birch — And and you know and it was and, you know, they did it in really fun, you know, hey this is going to be a fun thing to be a part of. Talk to me about the, because there’s a friction thing there to learn around trying to reduce the friction the kind of onboarding friction, I think over time that stuff can become, you know, it’s, it’s the, we actually are like our, we can become just too hard for our people. Kayra Montañez — Yeah. Rich Birch — What did you learn through that process in, in trying to find that balance of like, we want to make it easier to onboard people, but we still want to, is there any kind of lessons from that when you look back on that? Kayra Montañez — To me, the the lesson really is, again, there is a tension between you can’t shortchange, especially when it comes to kids. I can’t emphasize this enough. Rich Birch — No, yeah, absolutely. Yep. Kayra Montañez — Like I oversee all of these ministries and it would be not on my watch will will this happen, right? Rich Birch — No, yeah, yeah. Kayra Montañez — So we have to make be very sure that we’re not shortchanging the safety procedures. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep. Kayra Montañez — At the same time recognizing these things can take some time, right? Like we ask people to get a background check, they have to be interviewed, they have to sign a covenant, they have to have a reference. I mean, these things this is a lengthy process. Rich Birch — Yes. Kayra Montañez — And I stand by it. We have to do that. Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — At the same time, can we actually live in a world where we are marrying our need to have someone in the room while also still doing all of these things simultaneously, not actually waiting for all of this to happen so that then they can come. Kayra Montañez — And that’s kind of how we figured it out. Our Liquid family pastor came up with a process where she’s like, okay, we can shorten it this time. They’re only going to do these three things, not four, not six. But while they’re in the room trying it, we’re going to continue to do the other remaining four. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Kayra Montañez — It’s messy. It’s not always the best thing to do in an ideal world. You are not doing that. But when you’re faced with crisis, then you need to come up with, you know, resourceful ideas. Kayra Montañez — And so what I would say about the volunteer pipeline is this. There are short-term problems that you have to solve while you’re still working on this very long-term. Like this is a culture that you have to create. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kayra Montañez — And in order for you to create a culture, you have to tell stories. You have to celebrate what you want to be repeated. have to make people feel thanked, encouraged, appreciated, seen. You those are all long-term things that you have to be doing all the time. This is like nonstop. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Can’t take the, you can’t take the gas off that pedal for sure. Pedal off that gas. Kayra Montañez — Correct. You cannot take your foot off the the pedal. But at the same time, there are things that are short term that you really do have to also do. And sometimes that will require teaching from the stage where you’re actually envisioning people about why this matters so much. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Kayra Montañez — And this is what we did in March with the For the One. So I would say it’s it’s both/and; it’s not either/or. And so if that’s helpful, that’s how I would approach it. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s super good. That’s good. If there was a church that was, if you were sitting across the table from an executive pastor, maybe you’re at a conference or someone drops in your office and they’re, they’re feeling really stuck on this engagement issue. They feel low. Like it’s people were, maybe it’s groups, it’s teams, it’s all of it. Like it’s, we’re not moving people through any kind of pipeline. Rich Birch — What would be some of those first steps or first recommendations, first things you’d have them look at, maybe like a diagnostic or a first couple of things that you’d have them think about in this area? Kayra Montañez — Well, I would say if there’s a way for them to know of the people who are attending and maybe they figure this out with new here, how many of those people take one next step within the first month? Rich Birch — That’s good. Kayra Montañez — That would be one diagnostic that I would first see if I can do with the data that I have and the data that they collect and they actually figured that out. Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s good. Kayra Montañez — If they’re able to do that, then the next diagnostic would be what percent actually move into a people system… Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — …whether it’s a group, a deep dive experience, a dream team within 60 to 90 days, right? Rich Birch — Yep. Kayra Montañez — Because if you do that, you’re going to find the blockage. You’re actually going to discover Maybe our attendance is fine. We don’t have an invest and invite problem, but maybe what we have a problem with is our conversion rate. And so then you can start to identify what is it about our conversion that we need to fix? Kayra Montañez — Is it that we have ah unclear on-ramps? Or is it that our processes are too high friction? It’s too hard people to get involved. If you actually find like, no, actually people are taking next steps. Great. But they’re not sticking to it. Then you have a different problem. Then you can actually diagnose… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Kayra Montañez — …oh, maybe the first serve experience actually wasn’t sticky enough. It wasn’t welcoming. Maybe there were issues with scheduling. Maybe we didn’t give clear information. So you can kind of figure out what the problem is based on how you’re measuring it and what you’re discovering. That’s how I would start if I didn’t know what the problem was. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. That makes total sense. And, you know, it it definitely aligns with one of my bugaboos that I constantly driving with executive pastors. When you look at the actual numbers—I and I have not run into a church yet that this is not the case—most churches actually have a front door problem. They don’t have a back door problem. They their actual problem that we think we feel like, oh, like people aren’t sticking and staying in groups, they’re not staying and volunteering. But statistically, that’s actually not true. When most of the time, if you look at, okay, all the people that end up in a group, what is the kind of churn rate on that? Whatever that number is, I’ve never seen a church where it’s higher than the people we’re missing on the front end with exactly with what you said is how many people are removing from new here to taking the first step in the first month? Rich Birch — Because that you lose a ton of people in that door right there. That is a, you know, by a multiple of 10 or 20, like it’s a lot more that we’re missing out. And, you know, generally in most churches… Kayra Montañez — And can I just [inaudible] to that? Rich Birch — Yeah. Kayra Montañez — Because I just want encourage people, like, figure out a way to target your new here audience. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Kayra Montañez — So at Liquid, for example, if you come for the first time, not only do we encourage, highly encourage you to tell us that you’re here for the first time because we give you an awesome gift. Rich Birch — Yes. Kayra Montañez — Lots of churches do this, but then we survey people who came for the first time. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kayra Montañez — And based on what they answer, they receive a custom follow-up process for the first 30 days. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. Kayra Montañez — We don’t, so in that regard, like it is worth to look at that. Rich Birch — Yes. Kayra Montañez — Because you’re going to find out a lot of information and a lot of data about what people are choosing to do, where are they going, why they’re not sticking to it or why they’re not even going in the first place. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kayra Montañez — Like I’m shocked that I’ve been to churches sometimes to speak and they don’t actually really do like a new here call out. Like they don’t. Rich Birch — Yeah, I was going to say that. You said, oh, churches do this. Kayra Montañez — Maybe not. Rich Birch — And I’d be like, Kayra, I’ve been to way too many churches where they don’t do any of that. And they’re like, well, we’re not really sure. And I’m like, this is a solvable problem. We can fix this. Kayra Montañez — Yes. Yes. Rich Birch — There’s like real things you can do here. Actually, I worked with a church last year, a fairly large church in 2024, where they were experiencing some of these issues and so and I was like I basically said the same thing I just said, I’m like you’re losing people on the front end. And they’re like they’re like well we do a gift. And I’m like no you don’t. And I said there’s a and there’s a few things to fix around that. In 2025 the year we just ended, they received we made a few changes it’s not about me there’s about them they made a bunch of changes, they ended up receiving 5,000 more first-time guest contacts than they did 2024. Kayra Montañez — Wow. Just like we’ve always told it to do. Rich Birch — Now they did not grow by people but it’s just by focusing on that, right? Kayra Montañez — Amazing. Rich Birch — It’s just by like saying, hey, how are we what are we going to do to ensure that that step goes well with folks? So anyways, there’s huge opportunity there and in lots of churches. Kayra, you’ve been incredibly generous to give us your time at this time of year. As you’re thinking, kind of last question, as we’re thinking about 2026, what are some of those questions that are floating around in your head as you think about Liquid, as you think about the future? What are some things that you’re wrestling with that you’re wondering about that you’re contemplating as we go into this year? Kayra Montañez — Oh my gosh, Rich, so many. After this conversation, you know, I really am interested to see what’s going to happen with our discipleship model since we just blew it up. Rich Birch — Yes, yep. Kayra Montañez — I’m helping all of that and changing the way that we even onboard leaders. Like I’m really invested in seeing this through. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Kayra Montañez — I also totally unrelated to this, but we just launched, I think in the survey, one of the questions that was asked was what’s the best idea that you had in 2025? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, right. Kayra Montañez — And I was like, well, I feel like one of our best ideas was to use AI to launch a Spanish service. And I am really invested in that in seeing like, how do we continue to grow that service? How do we continue to grow that ministry? We’re launching new ministries in 2025, or 2026. So that always feels exciting and daunting. Kayra Montañez — So there’s just the work never ends. And there’s always it is an exciting and fascinating time to be in the church. I’ll say that. Rich Birch — I would agree. I totally would agree. Yeah, it’s the best. I would think, literally, I think this is the best season that I’ve been involved in ministry for sure. Rich Birch — For folks that don’t know what you’re doing with Spanish ministry, give us the 60 second, explain that again. Because I think I keep pointing churches to you saying, have you heard what Liquid’s doing? You go talk to them. So tell us about that. Kayra Montañez — So basically we have a Spanish service. We do have live hosting in Español. We have live worship in Español. But then we take our English message and we pass it through an AI service called Heygen, which actually uses the communicator’s voice and matches the words to their lips and they’re just preaching, they preach it in Spanish. Even if they’re not bilingual, they will preach it in Spanish. And it’s like you, Rich, are speaking in Spanish. Your words match to your voice. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, it’s it’s amazing. Kayra Montañez — People get to hear the the gospel and the message in their language. So it’s been fascinating to learn who we’re reaching, who’s coming, who likes that kind of a thing. You know, as a Spanish speaker myself, I’m like, would I go to a service where the message wasn’t actually authentic Spanish and it’s an AI generated? Kayra Montañez — I believe in the quality of our communication so much that I actually have to say, yes, I would. Because like last year, this year, we took our entire church through the book of Revelation. Tim spent 25 weeks teaching us the hardest book of the Bible. Kayra Montañez — The fruit that that endeavor produced is incredible. And so when I think about what we’re doing, I’m like, I believe in that so much that I do think this is a this is a thing that’s actually good to do. Even if people would who would think like, why would they go to that and not like an authentic Spanish speaker? Rich Birch — Yeah, interesting. And that, and you’re, you’ve been a year, that’s been basically almost a year you’ve been doing that now. Kayra Montañez — A year. A year. Rich Birch — And, and you’re be continuing to do it. So obviously something’s working. There’s some sort of version of like, Hey, we’re, we feel. Kayra Montañez — We’re continuing to do it. we’re seeing We’re seeing the fruit. We’re seeing baptisms, people giving their life to Christ, getting baptized, showing up and joining teams, um reaching families. We’re reaching multigenerational families where the parents go to the Spanish service, the kids go to the English service because it’s simultaneous, right? Well, the English is going on, the Spanish is going on. So families get to decide. It’s just really interesting to watch. Obviously, it’s been challenging in the U.S. to grow a Spanish service because of everything that’s been happening. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah… Kayra Montañez — But it’s just been really fascinating to see like the dynamics of who we’re reaching, who’s is sharing like who’s excited about it, and then using technology to further the gospel. It’s always exciting. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. I know I was goofing around with Heygen a little bit. And the part that actually, this was you know almost a year ago when you guys started doing that that, one of the tests I ran that actually convinced me was, so I was like taking videos of me and I would send them to like a friend who speaks Spanish. And I sent to a friend who speaks, you know, a couple of languages that it was doing, but then I did the reverse. There’s a great church, Nouvelle Vie. It’s a French speaking church, large church, be very similar to Liquid, but they’re French speaking. And so I took one of the, the lead pastors from that. I took a clip of his message and translated into English. And I was blown away. I was like, Oh my word. Like, Kayra Montañez — It is getting better and better every day. Rich Birch — I was I was shocked. I was like, oh, that that is, yeah, could I tell? Yeah, but this guy’s an incredible communicator. And you know similar to you and Tim and the team at at Liquid, I’m like, I could see that work anyway. Rich Birch — So that’s exciting. Kayra, it’s so great to see you. Kayra Montañez — Thank you, Rich. Rich Birch — Thanks so much for having time with us today. If people want to connect with you or with Liquid, where do we want to send them online? Kayra Montañez — Sure. So my name Kayra, K-A-Y-R-A at liquidchurch.com. Happy to connect with anybody have questions. Rich Birch — Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Andrew Hopper, Lead Pastor of Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina. Planted in 2012 with just 30 people, Mercy Hill has grown into a multi-campus, fast-growing church known for its gospel clarity and sending culture. In this conversation, Andrew shares why adoption and foster care have become central expressions of Mercy Hill's mission—and how those practices flow directly out of the gospel. He also unpacks the heart behind his book, Chosen: Building Your Family the Way God Builds His. Is your church unsure how to engage big social needs without drifting from the gospel? Are you looking for a way to mobilize people beyond church walls while keeping discipleship front and center? Andrew offers a clear framework for doing both. Doing good as a sign of the kingdom. // Andrew addresses a common tension churches feel between community engagement and disciple-making. Mercy Hill refuses to treat these as competing priorities. Acts of service—whether foster care, adoption, or family restoration—are not the kingdom itself but signposts pointing to it. Meeting tangible needs creates openings for gospel conversations. These ministries don't replace evangelism; they amplify it by demonstrating the heart of God in visible ways. A church’s collective heartbeat. // Mercy Hill's deep involvement in adoption, foster care, and family restoration didn't start as a top-down strategy but emerged organically from the gifts and passions within the church. Many leaders and members have adopted children themselves, shaping the church's collective heartbeat. Rather than attempting to address every social issue, Mercy Hill chose to focus deeply on a few—believing churches are most effective when they lean into the specific good works God has prepared for them. This focus has mobilized hundreds of families and created a powerful witness in their community. Rope-holding and shared responsibility. // Not everyone is called to adopt or foster, but everyone can hold the rope. Drawing from the William Carey analogy, Mercy Hill equips members to support families on the front lines through prayer, childcare, meals, financial help, and presence. Over time, they've learned that rope-holding works best when built on existing relationships rather than formal assignments. The goal is to ensure no family fights alone in what Andrew describes as intense spiritual warfare. Big vision with baby steps. // Mercy Hill isn't afraid to cast a bold vision—whether for global missions, adoption, or church planting—but they pair that vision with accessible next steps. Prayer nights, giving opportunities, short-term service, and relational support allow people to grow into greater obedience over time. High challenge without guilt creates healthy discipleship. Why Andrew wrote Chosen. // Andrew wrote Chosen: Building Your Family the Way God Builds His not to promote a program, but to give churches a theological foundation for engaging adoption and foster care. The book weaves together Andrew's family story, Mercy Hill's journey, and a deeply gospel-centered motivation rooted in Scripture. Designed to be used individually or in groups, Chosen includes discussion questions and practical guidance for churches or small groups wanting to explore this calling in community. Andrew's prayer is that the book would catalyze thousands of Christian families to participate meaningfully in caring for vulnerable children and families. Gospel-driven motivation. // Underneath everything is Andrew's conviction that gospel motivation outlasts guilt. Behavior rooted in grace goes further than behavior driven by pressure. Adopted people adopt people. Chosen people choose people. That theological clarity fuels Mercy Hill's sending culture, their community impact, and their ongoing growth. To explore Andrew's resources on adoption, foster care, and grab his book, Chosen, visit andrewphopper.com/chosen or follow him on Instagram @andrewphopper. You can learn more about Mercy Hill Church at mercyhillchurch.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We have got a multi-time guest on, and you know what that means. That means that I really respect, deeply admire, and want you to listen up, and today is no exception. Excited to have Andrew Hopper with us. He is the lead pastor of a church that they should be following, that you should be following. He’s a lead pastor of Mercy Hill Church with five locations, if I’m counting correctly, in North Carolina, and is repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. I love this church on many levels. They’re centered on the gospel and have a radical commitment to sending people to the nations. They have a desire to make disciples and multiply churches. Andrew, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Andrew Hopper — Man, I’m so pumped to be here. Love the podcast. Really appreciate it, man.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’m honored that you would come back. For folks that that don’t know Mercy Hill, give me a bit of a kind of an update. Tell us a little bit about the church.Andrew Hopper — Yeah.Rich Birch — Maybe update us from last time you were on.Andrew Hopper — Yeah, man. So just real quick, planted in 2012. We had 30 people, all you know kind of young professional age, and man, just really believe that God could do something incredible ah through, you know just through our our open hands, and he did.Andrew Hopper — And so it’s been 13 years. It’s crazy. We’ve been sort of pushing the same boulder up the same mountain for 13 years, just flywheel kind of concept and keep pushing. And ah the Lord has done an incredible thing, like you said, five campuses. And man, just moved into a new home and hub. That was from last time we had a chance. That’s been really great. Andrew Hopper — We were in a rented location for a long time as our main like broadcast campus. We’re a video-based multi-site. And so um it’s ah it was a three or four-year journey to raise the money and build this new facility. But we’re in, and the Lord has really blessed that with tons of new people, highest baptisms, sent ones, first time guest numbers, all everything that we’ve done. This has been a, you know, we’ve gone been on a ride – praise God for that. It’s it’s, um, it’s for his sake and his renown, but this year has been unlike the others. So it’s been…Rich Birch — Yeah, you were saying beforehand, it’s like 30 or something like 30 some percent year over year growth. That’s insane to keep up with.Andrew Hopper — It is man. And the, and the giving does not, uh, you know, the giving doesn’t happen.Rich Birch — Reflect that yet.Andrew Hopper — So it’s, it’s like, we’re trying to do ministry on a budget of a church that’s 3000, but a church that’s running 4,500. And it’s like, how do you do that effectively without killing everybody?Rich Birch — Nice.Andrew Hopper — All your staff, I mean, so, but we’re, we’re learning, man, we’re figuring it out. It’s fun. We got, we just planted our sixth church. So that’s apart from the campuses. This is first time, Rich, we’ve planted a church in our own city.Rich Birch — Oh, nice. That’s cool.Andrew Hopper — It’s been really, a really cool dynamic and it’s been fun. He’s doing great. Man, it was a college student that we met when he was 19 years old at North Carolina AT&T 10 years later. He’s an elder here. He’s done a lot of different things. And man, he goes and plants a new church in Greensboro about five minutes from one of our campuses and they’re doing great.Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, that’s so good. Well, the thing, there’s lots I love about Mercy Hill, but one of the things that I’ve loved about your church from the you know the chance we’ve had to journey a little bit over the years about it is you just have real clarity around the mission, this idea of making disciples, multiplying churches. It’s like that has been rock solid from the beginning. When you think about we want churches to have discipleship at its core, this idea of a church that actually grows people up in their relationship with Christ. What matters most at the foundation? How are you keeping that so foundational to you know what’s happening at Mercy Hill?Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I think um I think that we always sort of bought into kind of what we see in Acts 2 as a little bit of a flywheel. We call it gather, group, give, go. A lot of churches have something like that.Andrew Hopper — The the difference, I think, at Mercy Hill a little bit than what I see ah in in in a lot of churches that we help mentor and coach is that 2020 hit and everybody was like, man, what is a church? What is discipleship? What are we going to do now? And and people were kind of… And I do think it was and it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t just me. I mean, our, you know, our executive pastor Bobby, he was really integral in this. We sort of really doubled down on no, I kind of think the church is going to come back. Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — And I kind of think what we were doing is sort of what our church is set up to do. It kind of a brand thing. We are sort of a big box sending brand. And that, you know, for us, when we look at Acts 2, we’re like, dude, the gathering, there’s no more there’s no more important hour for discipleship and evangelism. And I know there’s a lot of things written against that. And people are kind of almost like downplaying it. Andrew Hopper — We’re just like, man, we just don’t believe it. We believe people need to be in a group. You know, we they need generosity is lead step in discipleship, give. And we got to teach people that there’s a mission bigger than themselves. And if we do that, it’s going to funnel more people into the gathering. Andrew Hopper — So I think fundamentally what I would say, we need to get, you know, we could talk about our value, you know we can talk about values to gospel and [inaudible] identity, but I think landing on you know, it’s very hard now to, to not get a word salad book form or thing. When you ask somebody, how are you making disciples? It can just be like…Rich Birch — Right. Very vacuous. Who knows what that means? Yeah.Andrew Hopper — For us, it’s just been a very clear, simple process.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — Like, man, we believe if someone is in the gathering, if they’re in relationship, if they’re being pushed on generosity, and if they’re living for a mission bigger than themselves, that’s a current of maturity that will move them. They just get in the stream, they’ll move.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so good.Andrew Hopper — that’s kind of So you know for us, I think that’s as, you know we’ve we’ve tried to simplify things there.Rich Birch — Yeah. And, and your last episode, I’ve pointed a ton of people to it, uh, to really, and we really unpack a lot of what you talked about there in more detail.Andrew Hopper — Right. Yeah.Rich Birch — You’re going to want to go back and, uh, and listen to that. You’ve reached as a church, you’ve reached a lot of people who don’t grow up in church that it’s like, there’s a lot of people who are there. You know, we used to say we ain’t your mama’s church, but mama didn’t go to church, you know? So, you know, and it’s been a long time that people were there. What challenges have you seen, you know, helping move people from curiosity into real ongoing discipleship? So like, I think there are, we’re seeing a swell of attendance across the country. People are like, oh, I’m kind of interested in this, but we got to move them from just, oh, this is something interesting to like, oh, I’m actually want to grow my relationship with Jesus.Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I mean, and it’s it’s funny too, Rich, you probably have a better bird’s eye view of this than I do. But I feel like churches that have been faithfully growing for like the last 10 years, they’re not really doing a lot different now. Or even though there’s this big swell happening, what I do think is that some churches have sort of decided like, oh, clarity does matter.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, that’s true.Andrew Hopper — And don’t try to be friends with the culture. We’re going to speak in and be prophetic. And, you know, even even to the you know Proverbs 25:26 says, you know, there’s there there’s no there’s no benefit in a muddied spring. You know, it’s like you got to be sort of you got to figure out if we’re going to be clear.Andrew Hopper — So, I you know, for me, I think like and you’re right, we do reach most of the people that we reach that are in the camp that you’re talking about our college age. We reach a lot of people, though, ah that are, you know, they’re they’re coming back to the faith because they’re a southerner.Rich Birch — Sure.Andrew Hopper — You know, they they kind of they kind of were, you know, they they did have some church in their background. They’re coming back. Their kids are not only born, but they’re realizing they’re sinners and they don’t have answers. They’re trying to figure that out.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Andrew Hopper — They’re coming back to church.Andrew Hopper — And, you know, I think the biggest thing that moves people from like interest into a decision point is just being very clear on this is what the gospel is. This is the life it compels you to. Are you going to be in or out?Andrew Hopper — One of the things we say at Mercy Hill a lot is like, man, if you’re if you’re just intrigued, you know, if you’re interested, you’re not going to stay at Mercy Hill because we’re never going to let you, you’re going to get pushed every week. And it’s like, man, people are not really in or like that. I’m not going to do that. You know, they’re just like, no I’m not going to sit here and get like pushed every single week on something I don’t really… And the flip side is when people say, all right, you know what? Stake in the ground. I’m in.Rich Birch — Yeah, we’re doing this, yep.Andrew Hopper — I wanna look like this, I want to build my life on this. It’s like, well, now, you know, it’s it’s man, I’m hopefully, you know, putting tools in the belt every single week to live that life.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s good. I do think there was a time where people wandered into our churches where I don’t think that happens as much anymore. I think people, when they arrive, they come with questions, with live active questions that they’re trying to wrestle with, kind of regardless of where they’re they’re at in their journey.Andrew Hopper — Yeah.Rich Birch — And they’re what you to your point around, you know, there’s no benefit in a muddy stream. People aren’t looking for anything that sounds like, well, what do you think? Because the reason why they’re there is because they’re asking questions. And so, you know, they’re they’re looking for clarity, like I think you’re saying. Rich Birch — Well one of the things I love about your church is there’s a high commitment to, you’re you’re you’re tearing down what I think is a false dichotomy. Sometimes I think when churches come to this idea of outreach or making a difference in their community, there’s this there can be this gap or false dichotomy between doing good in our communities and making disciples. Like we gave that up at some point. We were like, you can’t, you know, we can’t do both of those things for some reason. Why, why did we do that? Why did we, as churches say, we can’t both make a difference in our communities and also make disciples?Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I think it’s, I actually have a lot of sympathy for the fundamentalist leaning. I know it sounds a little bit weird. Rich Birch — No, that’s fine.Andrew Hopper — Churches that led from the, you know, from the good do good in your city kind of thing. I don’t think they’re right, but I do have sympathy for that because I understand how quickly that sort of, you know, is so hijacked by liberal, by theological liberalism to where it’s finally man we’re digging wells and wherever but we’re not talking about who the true source of living water is. Like we don’t want to be offensive we just want to do good without speaking the whole you know you know live your life as a Christian only use words if necessary, whatever, you know. And and I so I understand why people kind of fled and have fled that.Andrew Hopper — Like, you know, I’ve even had our church before when I when I talk about adoption or we we have a ministry, and a ministry called No More Spectators. We’re like moving people towards community ministry. And we had people kind of going on like, oh, my gosh, this seems like a sign of like churches start going this way and then they lose the gospel.Andrew Hopper — And I’m like, well, the reason you’re kind of feeling like that is because a lot of churches have done that. You know, you’re not [inaudible] like that just out of nowhere. Now, of course, I think it’s a little bit immature and we’ve got to push through. The way we talk about it, Rich, is, man, we want to do good in our community as signs of the kingdom coming.Andrew Hopper — They are not building the kingdom. You know, if we go repaint a house or house a homeless person, one day that person would parted with that house, whether they, you know, get messed up and leave or whether they do great and then would die one day, you know.Andrew Hopper — Or, if we have, ah you know, if we go and, and you know, we’re going to, for example, we have ah ah a family in our church that they need a ramp built because, man, the the brother is struggling with MS and he’s, they’re they’re fighting it like Christians do. We’re going to go do that. You know, we’re going to go build that ramp. That ramp’s going to rot and die one, you know, rot and rot away one day. And, you know, whether it’s 100 years from now or whatever.Andrew Hopper — Like it’s not literally the kingdom. But when the outside world sees us engage and, you know, our church will talk about this primarily when we think about community ministry, we think about it in terms of adoption, foster care and families count, which I can talk to you about. I think it’s bringing a sign of the kingdom that is to the community around us to say, hey, this is not the gospel. But it sure points to the gospel. Rich Birch — Right, right.Andrew Hopper — You know, it’s a pretty good signpost of like, yeah, there’s a kingdom coming where kids aren’t separated from their parents, you know. And and so that’s kind of the way that we think about, it’s not, you know, it’s not the kingdom. It’s a sign of the kingdom that is coming.Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s let’s dive in. So adoptions, foster care, families count. These are not small issues. Like you started with like putting a ramp on, painting somebody – those are like, okay, I can organize my head around that. And then we jump to what I think are obviously significant. How, it can be easy, I think, for church leaders it can be easy where, you know, we got a lot of fish to fry in our own backyard. When you see big problems like that, help us unpack that. Why do you as a lead pastor, why are you passionate about these issues? Why are these the things that you’ve chosen?Andrew Hopper — I think it’s, man, I think it’s great. I mean if you can’t if you don’t mind I’ll go back and give you a little bit of context. I’m a context [inaudible]… Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Let’s do it. Yeah. Andrew Hopper — …number one so I always want to frame it in where we’ve been. But the short answer to the question is I think that every church because it is made up of individual believers that have individual gift matrix, you know they’re they’re gifted the church is gifted in a unique way because the people which are the church are gifted in a unique way, right? Andrew Hopper — And so to me, you know, slapping, you know, a top down every single church has to to manifest signs of the kingdom in X way, which, for for example, I’m not to pick on it, but like, you know, the whole diversity church kind of movement. I love you know, if that’s your brand, that’s awesome. That’s great. Go, go bring signs of the kingdom in that area. But you know what people do is they take their thing and then slap it on every single church. You know, this is the sign of the kingdom that you have to manifest.Andrew Hopper — I don’t think that. It takes every kind of church to reach a city because there’s all you know, there’s every kind of people in the city. Right? For us, though, and I think for a lot of churches that that maybe are are made up a little bit like we are, I think there is a lot of meat on the bone for adoption, foster care, families count ministry. And I think churches could be greatly helped by latching on to maybe, you know, something in particular, maybe this, maybe this specifically. How we got there, Rich, was we had we had, you know, huge movement in our church in 2019. I was very convicted.Andrew Hopper — Some of the exponential stuff was coming out, you know, mobilizing people outside the walls of the church. And I really was, man, I was just really affected by that. And I don’t want the dichotomy, you know, I don’t want, well, you your people serve in the church and not outside the church. It’s like, no, most people serve outside the church. If you watch them, they are serving inside the church as well. It’s it’s like a it’s like, man, you know, just just because serving inside the church is not the finish line, don’t demonize it because it is a starting place.Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — So it’s like, I don’t like that kind of whole thing. But but it did affect me to say, OK, what are we doing to push to the outside? So we we we did a thing. You would have loved this, man. But it except for the fact that it didn’t really work that good. OK, it was awesome.Andrew Hopper — It was, we still have the domain name – nomorespectators.com – I had the tagline: Jesus didn’t die to create spectators. He died to create servants, not spectators, workers, not watchers. We, man, you could go to nomorespectators.com and, you know, it was like, it was like a funnel for all of these community ministry opportunities in our city. So it was, you know, people from the housing, you know, authority type stuff would post things. And it was, it was all this kind of, it had a bunch of stuff in it. Andrew Hopper — In the end of the day, great idea. It was a little too complex. Our people latched on to the foster care, pregnancy network, you know, ended up being families count, Guardian ad Litem and adoption. So our guy that was over all that at the time our sending director, which is hard for me to have a good idea that ends up dying hard, okay that’s just tough for me.Rich Birch — You had a great sticky statement and everything. Come on.Andrew Hopper — I’m the king of sunken cost bias. Okay. Like, I’m like, dude. And so finally around 2020, he came to me and he said, bro, I know this is hard for you. Cause it was like a two year initiative. He’s like, this is hard. He said, No More Spectators needs to just turn into Chosen. And it needs to be like, you had this idea for 30 different things. It just, this needs to be our niche, man. You know, we we don’t do a lot of these other things, but we do this really well.Andrew Hopper — And it was hard for me. Ultimately, it was great wisdom by them, not me. And we started going down that road. And partly, I think it’s because, Rich, is heart is near to my heart. I have an adopted daughter. A lot of our staff have adopted kids. We just have a guy right now. Our associate director of first impressions at the Rich campus is in Texas right now, you know, bringing their daughter home.Andrew Hopper — I mean, so it’s just, and so it’s sort of started to morph into, and the the the big thing I’ll say, and I, you know, I’ve been talking a lot here, but the big thing I’ll say is, if you think about the way I just ah described all that, it doesn’t start with the need in the community. It starts with the gift matrix of the church. The poor we will always have with us. Like there there is no there’s no scenario until Jesus comes back that there’s no kids that need to be adopted, you know.Rich Birch — Right, right.Andrew Hopper — And it’s just the reality of it. And so there’s always going to be need in the community. It’s more about, okay, what are the Ephesians 2:10 works that your church, because the church is made up of people who are individually called, what are the you know what are those works that God has set out for your church? Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — And, you know, so for us, we just felt like, dude, this is a a heartbeat thing. Our people got more, they get more fired up. The greatest thing I’ve ever been able to mobilize our people for prayer for is go to the abortion clinic and pray. I mean, a thousand people on their face in the pavement. It’s like, it just strikes a chord with our church and who we are. So we wanna run after that.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, I love that. And we’re going to dig out a bunch of this, but let’s think about it first from a perspective of somebody who’s maybe attended your church. They just started. They’re they’re relatively new, you know. The idea of something as weighty as adoption or foster care, that’s a big ask. And you know when you yeah how do I experience that as someone who’s just new? What are some ways that I could get plugged in? What does that look like? That, that, cause I, I’m hard, it’s hard to imagine that I go from zero to, to, you know, adoption, you know, how do I end up or flying to Texas to, you know, pick up a kid. That’s a lot. Help me understand. How are you, cause I know you guys are so good at moving people along from kind of where they are to where you’re hoping to – what’s that look like? What’s the kind of, how do you bring people along in this?Andrew Hopper — Man, totally. I think you’re right. I think it’s a combination of big vision on one end and then baby steps on the other. But the big vision matters.Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — Like we don’t want to be scared of the big vision. So, you know, for example, our weekender process, which I know you talked about some, you know, that weekender process, you know, people literally for years, we would give them a passport application in the weekender process. Because we’re like you’re at this church you’re probably going to be overseas at some point on a mission trip. And so to me it’s like people are like dude that probably scares the crap out of people. And it’s like well, I mean we want to make sure they know what they’re getting into, you know. We’re not telling them they got to do that tomorrow… Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — …but that is the, and then and then there’s all these baby steps, right? Like hey come to you know, every February we do Sent weekend. Come to the prayer night. Like that’s a baby step. That’s not you getting on a plane to go to Nepal. But you know hey we’re doing this missions offering at the end of the year, like maybe get you know. So there’s all these I would say that our the way we think about Chosen ministry, which again: adoption, foster care, families count, and rope holding, which is a big part of this discussion… Rich Birch — Okay. Andrew Hopper —…is that way. It’s big vision on the front end so we’re never going to tell somebody, hey you know, I know you could never do this. Like I’ll never…I think people can do it and they should. Or or you know more Christians than are should. At the same time we’re also not guilting anybody. Like so I’m I you know the the first thing I’ll tell people is like, hey, you know we start talking about adoption. I always say always say, hey, we have not lined up a bunch of little kids in the lobby for you to take one home today, okay. And then I’ll tell them, that’s next week.Rich Birch — That’s great.Andrew Hopper — Okay, so yeah but and we we try hard to like put some levity in it. Man, we’re not everybody’s not going to do that. In fact, a minority, of a small minority is going to do it. But everyone can be involved and there are baby steps.Andrew Hopper — So we try to highlight giving, man. Like if you someone adopts from Mercy Hill, we pay 25% of their adoption. Okay.Rich Birch — Wow. Yep.Andrew Hopper — If they’re a member and they’re in a community group, they get 25%. All right, well, you know, we’re going to connect that. Like, man, you you are never going to adopt. You feel like that’s, but it’s like, well, I give $100 a month to the church. Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — Well, hey, what? You know, you’re you are you are supporting.Rich Birch — We’re making a difference.Andrew Hopper — We do parents night out, you know, for all of our foster and adoptive parents. We do it quarterly. It’s like, hey, those are opportunities to come and serve, man. You can serve the meal you can do. We do rope holding, which I know we’ll probably talk about. But but the the idea of rope holding is just like, man, I’m not going to do this, but I can be in the corner for somebody. They’re in my community group. I want to be their first call if they need a babysitter or they need, you know, a gift card, or whatever they need.Andrew Hopper — So I think, man, we try to do big vision. You know, we’re going we’re going to set a huge vision, you know, for 2030 for 2030. Actually, we just hit our vision for 2025, which is 200 adoptive or foster families. There’s a lot of ways people can be involved with it.Rich Birch — So good. There’s, I think thing I would encourage friends who are listening in, you really should be following Mercy Hill, Andrew, because I do think you’re a very unique communicator where you, and you just described it. And I think to you, it’s just like, that’s just what you do. But this idea of like, you’re calling people to a high bar, but you’re not leveraging shame, guilt. you know, it’s, and I think so many times our language can kind of lean in that direction. Or we can, if we really are trying to push people towards something, or we can just undersell the vision. You know We can be like, oh, it’s not that it’s not that big of a deal. You know It’s not for everybody. So I would encourage people to listen in.Rich Birch — Talk to me about rope holding. How is that, what’s that look like? Unpack what that looks like a little bit.Andrew Hopper — Yeah, so rope so the the the rope-holding analogy, which a lot of your listeners probably gonna already know this, but you know William Carey, Andrew Fuller, William Carey, father of modern missions, he’s he he he makes the statement, “I’ll dangle at the end of the rope in the pit, if you’ll hold the rope,” talking to Fuller. And Fuller held the rope for him. Like, you know, Carey the mission field, Fuller’s raising money, preaching sermons, organizing mission boards. So that’s kind of the picture. Right.Andrew Hopper — So we say, all right, not everybody is going to go down into the pit of foster care adoption, even even families count. I mean, these are these are massive spiritual warfare battlegrounds you know um which is one of the reasons why our church wants to be involved so much. I mean you if you want to talk about getting to the you can do all the rhetoric in the world, brother, you want to get to the very bottom of societal issues, you you be involved in somebody’s story that’s trying that’s trying to get their kids back from the foster care system. You’re trying to help them with that. I mean, every you could fatherlessness, poverty, drug abuse. I mean, everything you can think, you know.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — So this this is just spiritual war. So what we tell people is like, hey, man. If we got people that are mobilizing for for adoption and foster care, we better have people in their corne,r because the enemy is going to bring his war machine.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — And we see it all the time. I mean, you’re going to see, you know, a family steps in to adopt and you’re going to start seeing them, you know, there can be sickness. They can have marital problems. They can have financial things that come up. They can begin to believe lies, frustrations. I mean, There’s just so they can become, you know, their their heart can start getting hard toward the system. I mean, there’s so many things that come at them. And so what we say is we need people in their corner, right. Andrew Hopper — Now, it’s funny because like the way our church has operated was at first we said, all right, we’re going to we’re going to do, you know, the the community group is going hold the rope for the people. And and that that was fine. The problem is when we really kicked off this ministry, so many people got involved that it became overwhelming to the group. So we said we got to start this… Rich Birch — Right. Andrew Hopper — …rope holding ministry. The rope holder ministry is good. It’s like, what does a rope holder do? They kind of do whatever the person needs them to do. Rich Birch — Right. Andrew Hopper — So there are examples of the rope holding ministry going really well, where it’s like, hey, man, they’re they’re helping with ah child care with the other kids when they’re going to foster care appointments in court. And or, hey, we’re we’re helping you do some things around the house whenever you’re overseas doing your adoption, which is going to put you three weeks in country. You know, there are some good examples like that. Andrew Hopper — But the other thing that we’ve learned is, you know, foster care and adoption families that are that are walking through this, they’re going through a very trying time. And to just pair them with somebody they don’t know and say, hey, look, here’s your supporter, it can be a little bit like, oh, that’s awesome, and then they never reach out to them.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — They never reach out – the rope holder’s ready.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — But it’s just like, dude, I don’t I don’t know you. And this is a hard time.Rich Birch — Who are you? Yeah, yeah.Andrew Hopper — And so what we’re trying to figure out now as we reboot that rope holder idea is, you know, how how do you kind of integrate relationships they’ve already had? Almost like, hey, do you have this massive pool of people called rope holders? Or when an adoptive family comes up, you say to them, hey, who can we shoulder tap, rope holder for you.Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — And then we’ll train them.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool. Yeah.Andrew Hopper — But not have this pool, but say for you, we’ll put them in. So that’s kind of what we’re, so as part of our reboot for 2030, you know, that’s sort of what’s in our mind right now.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Andrew Hopper — We have a whole playbook for the way we’ve done it, which anybody, you know, if anybody wants any of those things, they can go to AndrewPHopper.com/chosen. And I can send you any of that stuff we have, but on the rope holder side, you know, just full transparency, we’re still, you know, kind of, of you know, and I’m sure it’ll always be that way that we make an improvement.Rich Birch — Yeah, always trying to make it better. Yeah. And I want to, yeah, at some point in this journey, you decided, hey, we’ve got to put this vision and framework into writing, like we and you actually ended up writing a book, and friends who are listening in, I want to encourage you to pick up a copy of this book. Listen, we’re almost half an hour in. I know you’re interested in this. This is the kind of thing you, Andrew’s a trusted leader. He’s, I’ve had a chance to take a peek at the book. This will be super helpful for you. But, but that’s a lot of effort to put this together into a book. What pushed you from just leading this ministry to ultimately saying, hey, I want to capture this into a resource that could help other people?Andrew Hopper — Well, you know, Rich, I never really saw myself as like a writer, just like a practitioner, man. Let’s just keep keep working on the thing and going.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — And truthfully, I got approached. Hey, would you have any interest in writing? You know, New Growth Press is the one that’s editing this book and putting it out. And it was funny, though, because the second I was asked, I was like, man, I know what we should do [inaudible] that should be what we should do. It’s it’s our it’s it’s my story’s family story with our special needs child that we’ve adopted. It’s our church’s journey. But more important than either of those two things, it’s a grounding in the gospel-centered motivation. Because I think that is what is so important. We don’t do guilt motivation. And you know, cute kids and sad, cute kids and and sad stories are good reasons, but they you need a great reason, because it’s hard. Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.Andrew Hopper — You know, and the great reason is of course, adopted people adopt people. And so we delve way into the helplessness of our spiritual condition, how God adopted us and then how, you know, that provides a deep motivation for us to go and do the same for others.Rich Birch — Can you unpack that a little bit more? Because I think this is, ah to me, a core part of the book that I think is really helpful. Even if you’re maybe listening in, you’re thinking, okay, I’m not sure adoption or foster care is necessarily the thing, but you unpack this idea of gospel rather than guilt. And can you talk us through, you know, how, yeah, just talk us through that part, that concept a bit more. Just double click on that a little bit.Andrew Hopper — Yeah. So, you know, when we think about behaviors that flow from the Christian life, there’s really only two ways to think about it, right? Like one of them is we try to do things in order that God would approve of us, you know, that he would, you know, he would, ah he would, he would let us in his family, you know, those those types of things. And we, you know, this is for a lot of Baptistic world, which I am, this was kind of like, wow, this is really revolutionary, but that was 20 years ago – Keller and all that. You know, we just started understanding what more of a gospel center motivation. Andrew Hopper — Of course, the other way to think about Christian behaviors is you are part of the family because of what Christ has done for you. And the family has a culture. The family works a certain way. There’s fruit that will pop out in your life, not so that you can gain entrance into the vine. That’s not how it works. Like, ah you know, you don’t you don’t produce fruit to get in the vine. You produce fruit because you’re in the vine. Andrew Hopper — And so, you know, when we think about like like Titus 2, for example, we think about how the grace of God appears to all men, teaching us not just salvation, but teaching us to obey his commands. So there’s something about salvation that and is inherent to the gospel-centered motivation of of of going out, living the Christian life. You know, it’s it’s kind of the John Bunyan idea when they said, man, if you, you know, if you keep preaching this gospel message, people are going to do whatever they want to do. And he said, no, if I keep preaching this gospel message, people are going to do whatever God wants them to do. Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — You know, and so I think what we’ve done in this book is just say, hey, that that is true universally in our Christian life. Like if I’m not tithing and I’m stingy, I can do motivation in two ways. Number one, how dare you, you piece of trash that you never, you know why would you never give? Look what God, you know, blah blah blah, blah, blah, guilt, guilt, shame, shame. Right. Andrew Hopper — Of course, the other way to say is like, man, what kind of riches has God given you in the gospel? And what kind of inheritance do you now have as a son of the king? It’s like, all right, that’s powerful, you know, and it will it will take us places that guilt never can. Guilt will work for a while. You can put fire under somebody and it’ll move them. But if you put it in them, they’ll run through a wall, you know. Rich Birch — So true.Andrew Hopper — And so it’s like it’s like, hey, OK, so you could do it with all these different things. We’ve tried to take this book and do that with adoption to say, all right.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — We know James 1:27, we need to care for the fatherless and the orphan. We understand. I mean, dude, there ain’t, when you talk about metaphors, there’s two big ones, marriage and adoption, you know? And so if you want to do adoption well, we can do it from two motivations. One motivation is look how many kids need. That’s all and that’s all true. That moves my heart. You know, look, can you believe this story of this kid? And that’s fine.Andrew Hopper — Of course, you could do guilt, too. Like, how dare you, you know, have this nice, happy family and not go adopt a little poor orphan kid. You know, you could do guilt. All those things will be fine. They’ll put fire under you a little bit. But if you want to put the fire in someone that is going to carry them through the long haul of all this stuff, I think it’s better to start with: All right. There’s kids that need to be chosen. Were you chosen?Andrew Hopper — You know, so like one of the you know, one I’ll give you an example. We know of a family here in the tribe. They’ve got an awesome son that is 20-something years old, kids got Down syndrome, and they adopted him from Ecuador. And his story was one day a carpenter was working on this building and he heard cries coming out of a dump, like a trash heap. This child had just been born and been left you know with his deformities had just been left for the dumpster. Andrew Hopper — And they brought him to the orphanage. And next thing you know, you know about three or four years later, he got adopted by this family that we know. And that family’s father, he said, Eddie’s story is my story. I was pulled from a trash heap by a carpenter. And if you it’s like that is powerful. Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Andrew Hopper — You know, when you start thinking about, man, in my sin, I was one who had no part and parcel in the kingdom of God. I was headlong in rebellion. I had rejected. I was not a son. And God lavished his love upon me, that I would be called his child. And if if that has happened to me spiritually, how could I not want to do that? Or at least help those. you know I’m not saying that’s a call for everybody, but be involved in others that are doing that as well.Andrew Hopper — And so that’s what we say. Adopted people, adopt people, chosen people, choose people. And hey, I didn’t answer your last question. Rich Birch — That’s fine.Andrew Hopper — Okay. Your last question was, why did we write the book? Very simply, I think more people just need to think about what I just said. You know, and I think churches do. And I think that if, you know, a lot of churches have adoption-minded people and a little bit of of fuel in that fire might create some really cool ministry in that church. And this book lays really well for being like, man, make it a small group resource for eight weeks. You know, it’s got questions at the end of each chapter.Andrew Hopper — Like my my prayer is that this book would catalyze tens of thousands of Christian adoptions. Rich Birch — Wow. Andrew Hopper — And that’s why we wrote the book.Rich Birch — Yeah. It’s and I thought the same thing as I was looking through it, that this would be a great resource for a small group, a great resource as a staff training thing. Because again, I think there’s two things happening on two levels. From my perspective, there’s what you’re actually talking about – adoption, but then there’s how you talk about it. And I think even both of those, I think could be interesting as a as a staff team to kind of unpack and think about. How do we ensure that what we’re doing is so gospel-infused. That’s part of why i love you as a communicator. I think you do such a good job on that. It’s just fantastic. So I would strongly encourage people to pick it up.Rich Birch — Help me understand the connection. So Mercy Hill is known for, or at least from my perspective, known as a sending church. You know, the thing, one of the and I’ve told again, I told you this before, you’re the first church leader I’ve ever bumped into that has connected new here guests to number of missionaries sent. This like idea of like this funnel of how do we move people all the way along to that? I think that’s incredible. How does that kind of sending culture and adoption, how does that fit together? How does that help kind of fuel the flywheel of what’s happening at Mercy Hill?Andrew Hopper — Well, you you helped me think about this when you came and did our one day for our for our Breaking Barriers group, you know, for the pastoral trainings that we do. Because in your church growth book, you talk about how, ah you know, community ministry is used as an evangelism tool. I’m not, I’m probably butchering the way you talk about it.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Oh, that’s good. Yep. That’s great.Andrew Hopper — That was like a big light bulb for me because because we we definitely do that, but we have not leveraged the communications of that.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — And so, um you know, for us now, what we’re trying to really think about is how does our adoption of foster care ministry and rope holding and families count ministry, how does that create open? We call them open doors, right? Rich Birch — Yep.Andrew Hopper — Like, how does it create open doors, questions in the community, where people come in? And we’ve seen it. You know, so like when we’re talking about the sending culture, that pipeline starts when new people get interested in faith, they get interested in church.Andrew Hopper — And, you know, like, for example, we we had a guy, we just did a historic video. Man, he’s saved, baptized, serving now, ah or, you know, family, young family, prototypical Mercy Hill guy, like, man, just you know blue collar heart, white collar job, just that. I mean, just everything we talk about. Right. He’s our he’s kind of our guy. And the way he got connected was his boss had signed up to be a rope holder. And it just blew his mind. Like, why would a guy take limited time and go help these families? I mean, he of course, he thought it was a good thing. But it really intrigued them. Andrew Hopper — And so we’ve tried to we’re trying to leverage more of the communication side. It’s tricky. You don’t want to be like, hey, look at us you know in the community. At the same time, I’m like, man, this year, you know when we’re going to do a pretty significant upgrade to some of the there our foster care system has, there’s a house that has a backyard and the backyard is where families come to play with kids, play with their kids they’re trying to get back from the foster care.Rich Birch — Right. Yep.Andrew Hopper — And we’ve said like, you know what, man, if these parents are putting in, that needs to be like the best, the best backyard, and you know?Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, absolutely. 100%.Andrew Hopper — And so, you know, we’re, we’re going to do a significant investment in some, you know, whatever…Rich Birch — Play structures and yeah. Andrew Hopper — …like a, you know, whatever, like a pergola type thing. They’re going put a shed out there. All going to connect it, pavers, all that stuff is what we want to do. And, you know, we’re, we’re looking at that and I’m going like, yeah, I mean, I get it. Like you don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, but at the same time, that’s not for us. That’s for people that are interested to say like, why would a church do that? You know, like why do they care so much?Andrew Hopper — And it’s because, Hey, sign of the kingdom. We want to build families through adoption. We want to restore families through foster care and families count. This is part of that. So we’ve tried to we’ve tried to use it as a way. And I would really encourage church leaders to think about that. Like, hey, is your community ministry actually an evangelism strategy?Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Love that. And yeah, I would encourage you continue to encourage you to think through those things because I do think that there’s, we’ve seen that there’s huge opportunity for folks who don’t normally attend church. They’re interested the way I’ve said in other contexts is they see it as a good thing. We see it as a God thing. We’re not going to fight them over the semantics of it at the front end. Because like you say it’s it’s the kingdom puncturing through that grabs their attention and you’re like oh what what you know what’s going on there? It’s a first step – how do we encourage those people? Rich Birch — Like on that backyard project, I no doubt if you’re rallying a bunch of guys to go work there, I know that there are guys in your church who have friends who they could invite who don’t attend church who maybe would never walk in your church who’d say, hey, will you come and work for a Saturday for a couple hours and swing a hammer and help us do this thing? Let me explain what this is about.They absolutely would show up, right? 100% they’d show up and and they’ll get intrigued by that. And they’ll be like, oh, what’s going on there? That’s that’s fantastic. Rich Birch — Well, friends, unabashedly, I want you to pick up copies of, not just a copy, copies of this book. So where do we want to send people to pick up copies, that sort of thing?Andrew Hopper — Yeah, man, they can just go to andrewphopper.com/chosen. Rich Birch — Perfect. Yep.Andrew Hopper — The book’s out so they can pick up a copy. I mean, it’s also just like on Amazon or whatever, but that link will take you straight to New Growth Press.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — So, yeah, man, would love it. Would love to hear from anybody who’s using it well in a church context um to catalyze Christian adoption.Rich Birch — Love it. Anything else you want to share just as we close and how can people track, go to the website, other places we want to send them as we close up today.Andrew Hopper — Also on Instagram, we have a lot of stuff on Instagram, andrewphopper on Instagram. Yeah, the last thing I would say as a closing thought, Rich, is you know, the Christian adoption boom has sort of happened 20 years ago. People started talking about this a lot more. And now you can feel in some of the podcast world and all that, there’s a bit of a backlash, not not to don’t do it, but also like, hey, no one told us how hard this was going to be. Andrew Hopper — You’re dealing with traumatic situations, kids that have been brought, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s crazy. One thing I try to do in this book is I try to say, Hey, that’s not a good reason to take our ball and go home, you know.Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — Instead we just need to try to shoot as straight as we can. And I do that in this book, man. It is hard. It’s you’re on the front lines of spiritual war. I mean, it’s almost like, dude, the, the, the greatest transfer of faith from one generation to another happens in the home. We love it when adults get saved. I get that. But let’s be honest. Statistically, where does it normally happen? Right. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kids. Andrew Hopper — And so if you got a home that’s broken apart, that Christians are trying to put back together, what did we think Satan was going to do? You know, and so instead of taking our ball and going home, let’s just call it what it is, and then ask the Lord to steel our spine… Rich Birch — That’s good. Andrew Hopper — …and to move forward with the mission. So, yeah, man, I’d love for people to pick it up. And I appreciate the time to talk about it today.Rich Birch — Andrew, thanks so much. Appreciate you. Just want to honor you for the work you do. You’re a great leader. And I love how God’s using you and your church to make a difference. Thanks for being on the show today.Andrew Hopper — Thanks, brother.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Tim MacLeod, a former nurse who escaped the financial treadmill by flipping couches—and now teaches others how to do the same. Are you a church leader feeling the financial squeeze? Looking for a side hustle that doesn't require debt, special skills, or hours you don't have? Tim's story offers a practical roadmap—and encouragement—for anyone needing to close that income gap. Burnout and financial pressure. // Tim became a nurse at 21, newly married, supporting his wife through teacher's college, and quickly thrown into adult responsibilities. The only way to stay financially afloat was by working overtime once or twice a week. When their second child was on the way, he realized the path he was on was unsustainable. Finding financial freedom. // Options like upgrading his nursing degree, relocating, or working in dangerous psychiatric facilities were unappealing. Tim needed something flexible, part-time, and profitable enough to replace overtime. He discovered flipping phones and iPads first, but competition was fierce. Then, after borrowing a trailer and responding to a free couch listing, everything changed. He cleaned it up, sold it the next day for $280, and instantly covered more than an entire nursing shift. Why flipping couches works. // The opportunity exists because of a gap in the marketplace. Most people don't own trucks, can't move heavy furniture, and face tight deadlines when moving. Sellers value reliable pickup over price; buyers value affordable furniture delivered to their door. Tim steps into this gap. With polite communication and kindness, he creates a “win-win-win”: sellers get rid of furniture quickly, buyers get affordable delivered couches, and Tim earns a consistent profit. He estimates most beginners can make $1,000/month by flipping just five couches—buying each for around $50 and selling for $250 with delivery included. A side hustle with time freedom. // One of the most surprising parts of Tim's business is the flexibility. He built the early stages of his flipping business in the evenings with his wife and baby riding along—road dinners, cheap pizza, and trips to pick up inventory. Now he schedules pickups during school hours, stacks deliveries based on availability, and can pause or accelerate the business as needed. It's ideal for ministry families with unpredictable schedules. Why you can succeed at this. // Many of Tim's students are pastors or church employees, and he says ministry workers have unique advantages: access to storage at the church, a heart for helping people, strong communication skills, and the ability to bring calm to awkward interactions. Many pastors live outside their ministry communities—creating the perfect “import/export” opportunity where they can buy in one market and sell in another. And unlike many side hustles, flipping couches doesn't conflict with ministry—it simply provides supplemental income with minimal stress. A free resource to get started. // Tim created a free Google Doc of scripts—his exact messages for starting conversations, vetting couches, and negotiating with integrity. To get it, simply comment scripts on any of his Instagram videos and he’ll email it your way. He also offers an affordable course walking through his full system, including storage setup, videos, delivery strategies, and scaling beyond $1,000/month. To learn more or access Tim's free scripts, visit him on Instagram @thefulltimeflipper or explore his full course at tim-macleod.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. We’re definitely having a very un-unSeminary episode today. You know recently I heard some statistics that I was like, man, we gotta do something about this. According to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics—you’re like, it’s a little early in the year for the Bureau of Labor and Statistics—but there’s a 13% gap between what religious workers—people who are clergy actually, is the title—and the average income in the country makes – a 13% gap. In fact, it even gets worse when you look at people, there’s a category called “religious workers, other”, which these would be like not the senior pastor types. This is like everybody else that works in a church. There’s a 40% gap between those people and the the average salary in the country. Rich Birch — And so why am I bringing this up? Because I know that there are people that are listening in today that are feeling that gap. Here we are in January and they’re feeling the pressure of that. And I want to help you with that. And so I’ve got a friend, like a friend from real life, friends. This is like we’re in the same small group. We know each other, incredible leader, and I want to expose you to him. But more importantly, I think he can help you with that gap.Rich Birch — It’s my friend, Tim MacLeod. Tim was a nurse with the dreams of fatherhood and home ownership, but after a few years was faced with reality and no time, no amount of overtime was really going to fill the gap that he needed to make things work. And after being stuck on that kind of financial treadmill, he found a way out. He found the niche of, wait for it, friends, flipping couches. What? Flipping couches and was able to quit his nursing job and now does this full time. And I’ve asked him to come on. Uh, because I think what he did at the beginning, even part-time, I think could help some of us today that are, that are listening in. Tim, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Tim MacLeod — Thanks so much for having me, man. I’m excited.Rich Birch — This is going to be a good conversation. Kind of fill in the story. Tell us a little bit, uh, tell us about your background, and how did you get in? How did you go from nursing to flipping couches?Tim MacLeod — So I wanted to be obedient and I got married maybe a little bit too young at 21. My wife was still in teacher’s college. And so very, very quickly I was thrown into adulthood of two cars, rents and all the things that come with that.Tim MacLeod — And nursing was good. I was a registered practical nurse, so not a university educated RN making bank, but doing okay with a college diploma. And I got the comfy gig at a long-term care home because I preferred eight-hour shifts and not the, I didn’t want nights.Rich Birch — Midnight and all that.Tim MacLeod — I just wanted, yeah, exactly.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.Tim MacLeod — I wanted the free parking and the the reliable six to two shifts. That was just the lifestyle that I liked. And the only way that I could stay afloat financially was with doubles. I had to do my six to two and then at least once a week, usually twice, if I wanted to have any money to play with, um I would work the two to ten.Rich Birch — Wow.Tim MacLeod — And that was cool while my wife was in college or while she was finishing up teacher’s college, that was fine. And then, we had a newborn baby and that was fine. Because anytime that I would have to do those doubles, she’d go to sleep, go for a sleepover at her parents’ place. And, uh, and I would just drudge up the shifts.Tim MacLeod — And, but then when we were pregnant with number two, I knew that there was difficulties coming. And the road ahead did not look very good. And so I needed something different and all my options for replacing the income suck. Like I could go back to school and upgrade to RN, but I scraped through the first time. So that was nuts.Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — I didn’t have much hope in myself in that avenue. And I could go, I could relocate, I could move or I could commute about an hour and 20 away to the mental health hospital and make like danger pay in like an asylum, basically with my current qualifications.Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — And everything just looked terrible. I hated all of that. And all I needed was something better than overtime. I just needed to replace that portion of the income. And I needed something better in my evenings that hopefully I could do with my wife or from home. And so I was looking at side hustles.Tim MacLeod — And I had a little bit of success flipping phones and iPads because that’s all that I really understood…Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, yeah.Tim MacLeod — …all I understood at the time. And I live about an hour north of where my in-laws live, which is a pretty dense population. I’m in the sticks and the supply was really light there. So I could reliably go for a free meal at my in-laws place, pick up an iPhone or three and for like 300 bucks and then bring them home and sell them for 450 bucks. And so that took that took the pressure off and that was like grocery money.Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — And it was really consistent, really reliable. And and it was fun too. I really liked it. I liked the negotiations. I liked, I liked not trading time. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — Like I liked making making a profit instead of a wage. And that I was hooked on that, but there was competition. Like I wasn’t that clever doing that.Tim MacLeod — There was there was kids that were closer to the inventory ripping around in little Hyundai Elantras and uh i remember meeting this this Indian kid named Lucky, at least his Canadian name was Lucky, and he was beating me to all the goods. And and I met him one time to buy a phone for myself and I actually got to meet him and ask him some questions and he was making four grand a month flipping phones.Rich Birch — Wow.Tim MacLeod — And I thought that is so sick, and it’s just a pure cash hustle. And he was making more doing that than whatever his office or IT job was at the time. And I was super inspired by that, but I didn’t want to compete with him. So that kind of that kind of festered with me a little bit.Tim MacLeod — And um I just got an awesome idea. Well, was gifted to me by the Holy Spirit, I think, based on how fast and how fierce it came, that I need to get skills and tools to sell in a different category, something with a higher barrier to entry. And I wanted something where I didn’t have to compete with the Honda Civics and the Hyundai Elantra’s that were closer to the action.Rich Birch — With Lucky. Yes.Tim MacLeod — Yeah, exactly. He was smoking me. And and it also, it was a little bit of that and then also a little bit of me coveting. I wanted to get like, um I wanted an excuse to buy a Ford Ranger. I wanted a truck at the time.Rich Birch — Love it.Tim MacLeod — And so this combination, this combination of like wants and needs at the time, had me pitching an idea to my brother, Ross. I’m just like, Hey, what do you think about instead of phones and iPads? What if I got a truck and I started doing like washers and dryers or appliances or something like that? And he said, that’s a cool idea.Tim MacLeod — You’re good at the phones and iPads thing. And I definitely like, you’re good at the negotiations, all that. But don’t start eight grand in debt. That’s so stupid. Why don’t you just borrow my trailer and just try it? And I said, well, I don’t have a, I don’t have a hitch on my car. He said, get a hitch on your car, buddy. Okay. So, put that on the Visa, did not have the money for it. Rich Birch — Wow. Tim MacLeod — Put that on the Visa, put a two inch two inch hitch and four prong wiring on Mazda 5 like the little four cylinder, little mini minivan.Rich Birch — Oh, I wish I would have saw this at that. I wish I would have s seen this at this phase. Cause that, that, that would have been amazing to see him getting pulled around.Tim MacLeod — It was it was pretty cute and it was a big trailer too 12 by 6 aluminum being pulled by this little aaaaahhh. And it was stick shift and and…Rich Birch — Nice.Tim MacLeod — …and the first day I got the trailer, the only thing I could find, because I was just itching to use it, was a free couch. And it was one of those beige microfiber, like gets dirty if you look at it wrong.Rich Birch — All right. Yes.Tim MacLeod — Like they hold on to every water stain.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Tim MacLeod — And it was that and it was free and it needed a little bit of TLC. And I went and I got it for free. Brought it home and with a damp cloth, scrubbed out all the little marks and had it looking good. Took a picture of it, listed it with an offer of delivery and it sold the next day for 280 bucks.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing.Tim MacLeod — It was awesome. Because a nursing shift net was like 180.Rich Birch — Wow, OK.Tim MacLeod — I think I was, I think I was 28 bucks an hour for an eight hour shift after taxes. Yeah. Probably like 180 hit the account.Rich Birch — Wow.Tim MacLeod — And so 280 for that. And it was one of those trips of free meal at, at the in-laws and then a free couch and then bring it home and then solve somebody’s problem of, I just got an apartment. I don’t have a car or my car’s too small and I need a couch.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Tim MacLeod — And their option was, rent a U-Haul or go to Leon’s and finance something that comes delivered. Both are not very good options for most people. And then lo and behold was this guy who said, I got a couch, I can bring it by. And it was just the easiest yes for them. It was a win for everybody. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — The person who needed the couch picked up, didn’t care about the money. They needed reliable pickup more than they needed cost recovery of the item because they had a deadline. I needed a way to make some cash and the person on the receiving end needed a couch that was affordable that came delivered. So it was just a win-win-win for everybody. I was like, okay, forget about appliances. Couches – I love this. And it was easy, it was it was easy enough to lift by myself. Rich Birch — Did you ever do appliances? Did you ever do appliances in there? Tim MacLeod — Yeah. I did a washer and dryer and ate a loss on that because it needed repair and I didn’t… Rich Birch — Love it. Tim MacLeod — …I paid for someone to assess and they were like, yeah, this thing’s broken. Was like, sweet. Okay. So a hundred bucks to you for, for, to tell me that it’s hopeless, and then pay for junk removal too.Rich Birch — Yes.Tim MacLeod — Like it was just such a loss. But couches, I could reliably sit on it and be like, well, that’s not broken. And I can handle that little stain or I can, my wife could stitch that up.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Tim MacLeod — And, uh, it was just so safe. And I loved it. If, if I were handier, I’m sure I could, flip snowblowers or lawnmowers or cars or something like that, but I’m not handy. I’m just, I have the ability to relocate stuff. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — And so couches were just so perfect where I could just accurately be like, that’s 300 bucks to me. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — And they only want 60 for it. Perfect. Let’s do that.Rich Birch — So and let’s double click on that. A part of what, so friends, like with the reason why, I think you’ve seen why I’ve got Tim on the the line today. I want to inspire you to think like, hey, you you could in part-time make a little extra a month. And I’m going to get to that with Tim. I’m going We’re going hammer down on, okay, what exactly would be some of the first steps that you take? But let’s unpack a little bit more. You’ve talked about once this insight, which I think is just a stellar insight that’s obviously at the core of your business. It’s this whole timing thing. Like people, you know they think a couch is worth certain certain amount, but they’re moving on X date, and the value of that couch goes down. But then it’s literally the reverse. Someone on the other side, they have an empty living room and they’re like, I need something here.Rich Birch — Unpack that a little more, kind of double click on… that value exchange and how you’re in the middle of that. What’s it talk us through what that looks like.Tim MacLeod — Yeah, there’s there’s a gap. There’s a gap in the marketplace. On the one end, we’ve got people who need it picked up and their options are hope that someone will pay the price that they want. And then if they hit a deadline, then their option is junk removal or put it to the curb. And so there’s a gap to fill there. Tim MacLeod — And then on the other side, there’s a gap of people who need a couch dropped off but can’t do it themselves. Like how many, what’s the population of people that own a truck that can actually do it is probably less than 10%. Most people have cars and hatchbacks and SUVs and stuff like that.Rich Birch — Right. Tim MacLeod — And then there’s also the how many people can lift a couch. I would say easily less than half the population. And so there’s just this huge gap that can be filled. And so by just committing to being the dude, you can help a lot of people solve a lot of problems. And there’s a little slice in it for you too.Rich Birch — So one of the things I’ve heard you say is that you have found this process of buying couches and then, you know, sitting on them for a while, maybe cleaning them a little bit and then turning around selling them is really flexible. Talk us through that. You know, it feels like you’re, you know, you’re, you have some time control. Talk us through what that looks like for you in your current world.Tim MacLeod — Yeah, the time freedom is crazy. And that was the appeal in the beginning was [inaudible] I didn’t want to be strapped to a location, a building to to make money. I had to be away from my wife and kids. But when it, couches just took off so fast that the first time I flipped a couch, I immediately called the scheduling office and reneged on all of my overtime. I said cancel all my two shifts.Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Tim MacLeod — I’m done. I’m I’m I’m just doing my 10 shifts. And, and then it didn’t take too long before i wanted to quit so fast, man. I wanted to be out of there. My, my my passion for the, like, I was so replaceable. Like as soon as if if I’m gone, someone’s going to fill the shift.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Tim MacLeod — Like, ah but there was a, there was a huge, there was a need that, and it was fun for me too. It was a game. I forget the question.Rich Birch — Yeah, I was just talking about the time flexibility, like how you feel like it’s, you know, you have a fair amount of time freedom. Part of what I’m trying to get to is pastors are busy people. Church workers are busy people. Is this even the kind of thing that they could fit into, you know, an existing as like a side hustle kind of thing?Tim MacLeod — Yes. Yeah. The time freedom is crazy. And so on the buying side, I’m just letting people know when I’m available. And sometimes I’ll tie it up with ah with a $50 deposit so that they can market it sold with confidence and they know that I’m not going to ghost on them. And that I have the peace of mind of nice, that’s mine for when I need it. And I’ll squeeze them for a deadline so that I make sure that I’m providing the service of reliable pickup in a manner that works for them. Tim MacLeod — But yeah, I’m just stacking pickups when it’s convenient for me. And in this current season, it’s during school hours. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — So I’ll drop the kids off at school and then rip south and grab some stuff. But in that season, it was I’m available in the evening. And so I would come home from school, I’m sorry, work from my nursing job. And my wife would pack up, we pack up a little cooler bag of like a road picnic of dinner.Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — We had a one-year-old baby at the time and, uh, oh, that summer there was a lot of 50% off pizzas. Pizza Hut had a, the, the apps, we had all, all the apps, lots of road dinners. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Tim MacLeod — And Costco was clutch too.Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim MacLeod — But, um, yeah, just when I had an availability, I would acquire inventory and then they’d sell when they sell. And and again, full flexibility of, okay, I’m available at this time. I can squeeze in a delivery or someone could come pick it up. But yeah, the the time freedom is crazy and it’s sweet to to to just dabble in profits instead of relying on a wage. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — Yeah, time freedom is awesome.Rich Birch — Well, you talked about the fact that your you know your brother was telling you you’re good at negotiations. I know there are people that are listening in today that are feeling like, oh, there’s no way that I would be good at negotiations. Obviously, you’ve got to buy the thing for considerably lower than what you’re selling it for. Talk us through even just a couple, help us get over that hurdle in our brains. Man, I just don’t know that I could do that.Tim MacLeod — Yeah. So the first thing is I’m scrolling a lot. And not not frequently. I’m not glued to my phone. But when I do it, I lock in. Like today was the shopping session and it was headphones in with some instrumental music, just kind of vibing. And I’m probably scrolling, looking at probably 400, 500 couches. Rich Birch — Okay.Tim MacLeod — And I’ll message probably 20 to 30 of them. Because a lot of them are crap. A lot of them are actually new. There’s no opportunity with new coaches. like There’s lots of warehouse stuff that’s still on first Facebook Marketplace and stuff like that. But what I’m looking for is very specific. I’m looking for private sales from real people. You got to be able to spot the scammers and weed them out. Tim MacLeod — And I’m looking for couches that I would want in my lockers. I’m not worried about the price whatsoever. Because the price is super subjective and it’s just kind of like what they’re hoping for. It’s not actually what they’re necessarily going to get. So the price is irrelevant. I’m just looking at pictures and I’m compiling lists of couches that I would want. And I’m starting conversations so that it’s kind of like I’m, I’m, it’s it’s like I’m offering my service. I’m starting the conversation to see why they’re selling it, if there’s a deadline, and if they would be someone who would be receptive to my service. And it’s kind of like they’re paying me for my reliable pickup service with a smoking and deal on a couch.Tim MacLeod — And so I have to get them there. And it’s not just, I can’t just go around lowballing everybody because you burn the bridge and you hurt feelings. Rich Birch — Right. Tim MacLeod — So I’m starting conversations and I’m filling in the gaps on the item. So I’ll read the description and see what’s missing. Like, did they specify that there’s pets in the house? I want to know, is there pets? Are there smokers in the house? Does it need any repairs? Does it need any stain removal or restoration if it’s leather? And I’m filling in all the gaps. So I have a complete picture of what it is that I’m actually buying. And that’s all kind of like a trauma response from my many, many drives of shame of I didn’t ask the right questions.Tim MacLeod — And so it’s it’s definitely preventing the drive of shame. And I’m just running through these scripts that I have. And it would sound like it’s a lot of typing, but I’ve actually made keyboard shortcuts for all of it. So my opening question is, I’ll never say, hi, is this still available? Because everybody hates being asked, hi, is this still available? On Facebook Marketplace, right? Because they’ve made it ah they’ve made it a button… Rich Birch — Yes. That’s why it’s up. Tim MacLeod — …where it’s just like, hi, is this still available? But that upsets people, which is fair, because it’s annoying. But at the same time, most people don’t have empathy for the fact that, how else are they going to start the conversation? Why would you ask questions if you’ve got someone lined up for it? So I’ll ask the exact same question, but in a way that annoys nobody. And I’ll say, is anyone scheduled to pick this up? It’s the same question, but upsets nobody.Rich Birch — Same question, just in a different way.Tim MacLeod — So that’s, that’s my first shortcut is, good morning, good good afternoon, good evening, whatever. And then any, and so on my keyboard, any with two wise expands into anyone’s schedule to pick this up. And then the next one is, does it need any repairs or stain removal? That’s if it’s fabric. And that’s does D or D O E S S and then D O E s S S S or with three S’s is, does it need any repairs or restoration? That’s if it’s leather. And so it’s just these quick little, my thumbs are just, and just… Rich Birch — So cool. Tim MacLeod — …I’m, I’m drafting up this quick little paragraph that fills in all the gaps, firing that over. And then, And then they’ll reply and fill in the gaps. And then I park it. I pause the conversation by saying, okay, awesome. Thanks so much. Just starting to have a peek at options, might get back to you.Tim MacLeod — And that one line separates me from everybody on Facebook. Because most people ask a question and then they just leave it on read. They got that little picture, that little tiny profile picture of yourself that says that, hey, he read it, but he’s gone and it’s crickets.Rich Birch — Yes.Tim MacLeod — And it’s a very, very infuriating experience. And that’s kind of like part of my service is that I am very, very different on Facebook Marketplace. Like an experience selling to me is better than anybody…Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — …because of how I talk. Like I’ll receive offers every day from people that don’t use words. They just send a number. Rich Birch — Just money. Tim MacLeod — Like I’ve got a couch listed for 1150 and someone just sends 700 – no dollar sign, no question mark, no good morning, nothing like that. And, and that’s a fair offer. Like he’s… Rich Birch — Yeah. Tim MacLeod — …I paid, I paid a fifth of that, like 700 is a fair offer, but I automatically hate this guy. I don’t, I don’t hate, I don’t hate him. Rich Birch — Yes. No, I get what you mean.Tim MacLeod — But, but it’s immediately just like, dude! Rich Birch — Yes. Tim MacLeod — You like say, say hi, say please. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Tim MacLeod — Even a, even a question mark would be, you know, so that’s the kind of people that I’m dealing with. And I’ve got thick skin and I always operate on the mindset of, I do want to sell this guy and I, and I do want to see him later today. So I’m not going to match his energy. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — I’m never, I’m never a thermometer. I’m always a thermostat. I always set, set the temperature in the room, you know?Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Yep.Tim MacLeod — And so that’s ah that’s a big factor. But yeah, running through those scripts and and just getting people to their best price. And so after pausing it of, thanks so much, just starting to have a peek at options, I’ll reconnect with them.Tim MacLeod — Now, this is this is if their price is optimistic and it’s not a price that I’m willing to pay. I’ll slow play it a little bit by pausing the conversation. And then I’ll come back and then I’ll hit them with my my secret weapon is my polite lowball offer. And the number they might hate the number, but it comes gift wrapped in this like apologetic, like, Hey, I’m…Rich Birch — Oh, you got to tell me more that you’re, you’re setting that up. Well, you’re like, what is the polite low ball offer?Tim MacLeod — For me, I’m shopping in Toronto, which is like 90 minutes, two hours away.Tim MacLeod — And so my apologetic offer is: It’s so far, is there any chance you’d consider this much, any chance you’d consider for an out of towner? And then I just plug in the number. And, and it’s always received well. And even if it’s even if it’s even if they’re firm, that’s fine. Now I know. Rich Birch — Right. It’s data. Tim MacLeod — But and ah honestly, if somebody accepts my offer, then I didn’t offer low enough. Like I’m i’m really pushing the limit.Rich Birch — Oh, interesting.Tim MacLeod — I’m flirting with the line between an optimistic offer and a rude offer, but because I’m so nice about it. And it’s, it’s kind of like, it’s my secret weapon to get them to their best price. Because the the worst way to get someone to their best price is what’s your best price?Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — Like whenever someone asks me that, it’s again, it’s just like, that’s annoying. I don’t like you.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Right, right, right, right, right.Tim MacLeod — But to politely lowball and then their counter is their best price. So I just want to squeeze them for their counter offer. And now I know what their best price is.Rich Birch — Right. Okay. That’s cool. There’s a lot there. And I know you’re want to stay tuned because Tim’s got an offer of some free help that he wants to give you that we’re going to, we’re going to get to here in a minute. So I know some of you were like, go back and ask questions on that. But I know that the free offer to help is going to help with some, some of those things. Rich Birch — What about negotiation on the other side? So I get a sense of what you’re talking about to try to get them, you know, there’s a time thing there and we’re going to wait and all that. But now on the other end, you’re trying to obviously maximize or get the biggest money for that couch you just bought, bought. What are some things we should be thinking about on that? How are you offering the couches in a way that, you know, captures people’s imagination and says like, oh, okay, that’s this, I want to do business with this guy.Tim MacLeod — So a big thing is where I’m selling it. It’s almost like I have an import business. It’s that I’m I’m ripping down the city and I’m shopping in the Tesla BMW neighborhoods where nobody has trucks and they sell really slowly. Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim MacLeod — And I’m loading a trailer and then bringing it home to the sticks where there’s not as much supply. And I’m selling to people who do have pickup trucks. Like where I live, there’s lots of people with trucks and trailers, but they weren’t doing that drive to the city like I did.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Tim MacLeod — So I’m destroying a Toyota Highlander in kilometers, which is really hard to do. It’s at 400,040 and she ain’t quitting anytime soon. It’s been a great car.Rich Birch — Love it.Tim MacLeod — So that is definitely like the fact that it feels like an import business feels like cheating.Rich Birch — Well, and can I just, I just want to interrupt you for a second here. This, because that dynamic, this is a part of why I wanted to have you on the show. Because one of the things that I’ve seen is like, it’s super common, like super common for church leaders to not live in the community that they serve. Because frankly, they can’t afford to live there because of that gap that I just told you about.Rich Birch — There is a wage gap between what people make and the communities they serve in. And so they typically live you know, 45 minutes, an hour away. I actually think that that, the fact that they’re just driving into the office could be, and then going back to wherever they live, could actually set them up for running this kind of business just because they’re in and out of where they’re at.Tim MacLeod — Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’d be cheating. If you could, if you could grab a couch on your way home from on your way home from work to bring it back to the sticks, that’d be awesome.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. I see that all the time.Tim MacLeod — For sure. And at a lot of…Rich Birch — So the distance is one way. So there’s like an import out, out, port anything else that you get, it’s kind of an interesting part of how you negotiate on to try to increase the, the, the price.Tim MacLeod — Knowing what it’s worth and how quickly it would sell is definitely a factor. And just patience wins on both sides.Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — Being the dude who um can pick it up and someone is now, they had their optimistic kick at the can and now it needs to go and their patience has run out. Patience wins there. And then on the selling side to where I don’t, it’s not in my foyer. It’s not in my living room. The new couch hasn’t arrived. It’s in a storage locker ready to be picked up anytime. And my lockers are fairly affordable being in a rural spot.Tim MacLeod — And so it’s kind of like if if we were playing poker, I’m holding aces. I can deliver it. I can sell to anybody. I’m not relying on people on the small demographic who can pick it up. I can sell to the Honda Civic crowd. I can sell to seniors who can’t lift a couch themselves. I can finesse it into a patio door by myself. And so there’s the there’s the skill gap there as well. And all of the all of the hindrances that make selling a couch difficult are not a factor for me. I can lift them by myself. I can I have the best trailer. I have storage lockers. They can take as long as they need to sell. And I live in a market where there’s not as much supply. So it’s just, it feels like cheating. Like I’m just really, really set up for it. And it’s super easy to be patient.Rich Birch — Now, I don’t know if I’m going to force you to give away one of your secret weapons here, but talk about the videos that you shoot ah of the, you know, of the products. Because i to me, I think this is one of the things you do that I think is super unique. What is what’s unique about the videos that you might shoot? Say got this nice leather couch. It’s like, you know, it sells for $5,000 somewhere else. You’re selling it for whatever, $1,500, $2,000. What’s actually in that video that might set your your listings apart?Tim MacLeod — Yeah, so that was something that I feel like I pioneered. And since then, Facebook has now added a feature where you can add a video to a listing. But it’s so nice to have. So I’m I’m posting flattering photos. So it’s it’s a scroll stopper when they’re on Marketplace.Tim MacLeod — And they’ll inquire. And then my video is super, super honest. And the goal is for it to be so detailed that they could confidently say, okay, he just showed me all the reasons not to buy the couch because all my stuff is used. I’m not selling anything new. It’s all pre-owned. They all have some blemishes or some quirks or worn spots or something like that. But to include ah a video that shows all of the reason not to buy it really, really greases the wheels because no one’s coming to see a couch and then being disappointed when they get there. Everything was already shown.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Tim MacLeod — So they’re coming to just give, basically just come sit and sniff and make sure that it’s something that they would want in their house, or something they’d want to sit on for two hours a day. And, um, and so those videos really, really saved me so much time and gasoline. And since then they’ve added that where you can add a feature. So, or where you can add a video into the listing. And so as long as the video is less than a minute, so I’m aiming for 59 seconds, I’ll fill the whole thing and I’m showing every inch of it and I’m packing it with dialogue on the neighborhood that it came from, the people, the house. And a lot of times that’s a selling feature of this this couch came from North York. The house was ridiculous. Rich Birch — Right.Tim MacLeod — It’s one of those houses with three living rooms. And this is the one that had the Christmas tree for a month a year. Like this was barely used. And I’m just packing it with dialogue and really, really selling it.Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim MacLeod — And my goal is that I could deliver it with them like sight unseen that they could firm up. And that when that couch arrives, there are absolutely no surprises. It’s everything they ask for [inaudible]…Rich Birch — Which from from your point of view, like this isn’t the only couch you’re hoping to sell this week. And and a part of the way that you have to protect your time and protect your business, frankly, is not having a bunch of people come and check out couches and then decide against it. Whether they’re coming to your locker or you’re driving it to their place. That’s like the worst case scenario is they show up and they’re like, oh, I don’t want this. So you might as well be fully upfront and be like, hey, here’s some stuff that’s not great about it.Rich Birch — And you do it in a really clever way. I love those videos. You helped me sell a car, which was fantastic. And I love the video you did for, you know, for that, because it was the same thing. It was this kind of like fun, um you know, here’s five reasons why you shouldn’t buy this, which which is just endearing. People, you know, lean in and want to hear more about that.Rich Birch — Well, what about the lifting piece? So, you know, if you’re not seeing one of these clips, Tim is a man of a certain size. He’s got some girth to him. He can pick stuff up. But what if I can’t? What if I’m not that guy? What if it more like me? You know, you’re like, hey, I’m not sure that guy can pick up 20 pounds. Like, is that like, I know that’s a part of what your you offer. Obviously, it’s a part of your advantage. But, you know, not everybody can do that. Talk us through that hesitation.Tim MacLeod — Yeah, I don’t think that it’s a deal breaker for having success. I think that if you can carry in a stubborn load of groceries in from the house that you could make a lot of money flipping couches.Rich Birch — That’s good.Tim MacLeod — And it it feels like a very unique form of laziness. Like I’m the kind of guy that if I need to go start start the barbecue or go run and grab my wallet from the car, I’m going to walk across the whole house and look for my flip flops instead of bending over and lacing up my boots that are right there. Like it’s a very unique form of laziness where I could jackknife park the trailer up to the storage locker. I have the dolly, but I’d way rather just, hey-yep-hey-yep-pep-pep just, just he-man lift it myself. And I’ve got a lot of really good mechanics lifting it. Tim MacLeod — Lifting a couch solo actually is not very heroic. And, and I’ve taught a lot of people how to do it. And there is, there are some heroic angles where, where the couch is on the ground and all four feet are on the ground to like clean and jerk it up overhead is that would definitely take some mass and some explosive power, but you can always also lift the couch up from the side until it’s vertical and then kind of like let it teeter and, fall on you in ah in a safe manner. And the lift itself, like once it’s up, it’s it’s as easy as like portaging a canoe. It’s not it’s not as heroic as it seems.Tim MacLeod — And I’m still reliant on other people. I am a one man show and it’s not, the money’s not good enough to pay an employee to sit in the car with me for four hours for 30 seconds of actual work. And so that’s one of my, one of my questions that I’m asking people, lift with two T’s on my phone expands into is anyone available to help me lift it? I’ll be alone. So I do need muscle.Tim MacLeod — And, um, if it’s in the garage, I can do it solo, like dragging a couch onto my trailer is easy enough. They slide very well. And I do have the dolly if there’s anything overly technical, like the pullouts, it’s nice to have a dolly. But yeah, a lot of the times there’s people, there’s someone there to help me lift it. And very, very rarely is it, sorry, I had back surgery or sorry, I’m a single senior lady or something like that. There’s usually, and even even when they say that, sometimes I’ll press a little further. Like, do you have a helpful neighbor? Rich Birch — Right. Meet us.Tim MacLeod — Do you have a son-in-law who can who could that I could coordinate with? Yep. And a lot of times I’m just handing it, or I’m squeezing them for a cell phone number of whoever the the muscle is. And now I’m on their schedule.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Tim MacLeod — So solo lifts are not required, but they are, they are helpful sometimes, especially at the locker when I’m by myself.Rich Birch — So this is how many years you’ve been doing this full time? Like you, so you left nursing, you know, I know this goes way back to the beginning the story. You left nursing and then how many times, how many years you’ve been doing this?Tim MacLeod — July, 2019, I borrowed the trailer from my brother. And I did full-time nursing plus evening couches for about a year, pulled back from full-time to part-time, part-time to casual. And I think it was May, 2021. Like I did a year of COVID nursing and hated every second of it. Like as soon as COVID was announced, I wanted to be out of there, but I had mortgage approval on the brain and T4 income, or W2 income for the Americans, is much more preferred for lenders than self-employed income. So I held on for that reason. And eventually left just because I hated nursing. I was getting like ulcers on my ears from wearing masks all day. Just the the charades of COVID were really, really ruining it for me.Rich Birch — So we’re going I want to get to that, that help that you’re, you know, you’re offering, which is fantastic. But I want to think about like a person that, you know, they, we want people to stay in their jobs. We don’t want them necessarily to leave. And so ah somebody that wants to make maybe like an extra thousand bucks a month, maybe that’s like, which is, you know, to lots of people, that is like a, that’s a game changer. Like that’s like, that makes all the difference in the world.Rich Birch — Give me a sense of what you think that would take to actually get to that point where, okay, yes, I could, you know, how much time do you think they would need to invest? You know, what would, what is that going to look like? How many couches do you think I’d have to move? You know, I know that’s hard to say. It’s like all North America wide, but give us a sense of kind of the framework of for an extra thousand bucks a month, what would that look like for somebody? Maybe it’s like a youth pastor that’s that’s listening in or an executive pastor. Or and they’re like, Hey, if I just had an extra 1000 bucks that’d make a huge difference in my life. What what would that look like?Tim MacLeod — Sounds like five couches to me.Rich Birch — Five couches. Okay.Tim MacLeod — Buy them for 50, sell them for 250. Delivered. Yep. And that’s that’s a great way to start is just three-seaters. Just rinse and repeat. Three-seater, three-seater, three-seater. But the money is sets and sectionals. That’s where my focus is now.Rich Birch — Okay, okay.Tim MacLeod — Now that does require trailer privilege. But with a with a minivan, you can pick up a three seater. Most three seaters will fit inside a Dodge Caravan or an Odyssey or a Toyota Sienna. And that’s a really good way to start lean and mean with a U-Haul, enclosed trailer, you just need a V6 all wheel drive. So obviously preferred, especially if you have the kind of weather we do, but, um, yeah, for 45 bucks for a U-Haul enclosed, that’s, that’s insured so that you could get in an accident and you’re not paying for it. Always take the insurance. Always. It’s only like five bucks. Tim MacLeod — But um yeah, 45 bucks for 12 by 6. And then you can pick up couch, love seat twice. But yeah, just fill in those trailers. But yeah, starting lean with what you have available and scaling up when it’s smart. And once you’ve proven that it’s possible in your market as well. But everyone’s using couches, so I think it’s good alright.Rich Birch — Yeah, so five, so five couches. How many conversations do you think I’d have to get into take to buy five couches, maybe on that side first?Tim MacLeod — I think, yeah, with the numbers, I think that if you were to start 30 conversations a month, that there would be, there would be five people that hit deadlines and they’d be like, sure. 50 bucks. If you can actually show up, it’s yours.Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s that feels very doable. That doesn’t feel like crazy out of reach. Like there’s no way that feels like a good, you know, a great starting point for sure.Tim MacLeod — And nobody wants to do it. The barrier for entry is, is ah high enough that it’s it’s basically a private little fishing pond. A lot of people to help.Rich Birch — Right. So let’s talk about, I want to, you’re going to help people, which is amazing. And so you’ve put together some resources to help them kind of get the the ball rolling on this front. And how do, first of all, tell us what it is and then talk to us about how we can get that contact information. We’ll put links and all that in the show notes, but talk us through this.Tim MacLeod — Yeah. So those scripts that I was talking about, um, I’ve made a Google doc that is available. All you got to do is comment scripts on any of my videos and, uh, my little robot Tim will fire over, um, just squeeze you for an email and then I’ll fire that over. And, uh, it’s a good little list and you can plug those in just copy and paste and plug them into keyboard shortcuts in your phone. And then you can use those. Tim MacLeod — And it doesn’t have to be for couches. Like a lot of them are pretty couch specific, but just using those as inspiration for starting conversations and getting people to their best price and making sure that you have all the information so you’re making an informed purchase and there’s not any surprises. And and you’ll see with the with the flow of the conversation, I really am just gifting the blueprint on getting people to their best price. Tim MacLeod — And yeah, and then in my in my bio on instagram I’ve also got the couch course and I’ve run that before as a high ticket offer um and I had help from an agency to, to get leads and all that stuff. And I didn’t like it cause I didn’t like how much people were having to pay in order for me to afford that team. And I just want it to be an impulse buy price range. Tim MacLeod — So for a one hundred bucks, you can come along on a three month ride along with me while I’m pulling like $15,000 months. And, uh, the summer that I recorded that, was 2023 and I did 180k in sales with a gross profit so just sales minus cost of goods was north of a 100k, I think, after tax. I think it was like an 80k a year income. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Tim MacLeod — And I had a three-year-old with me the entire time. My wife had gone back to work and was using her teaching license and I had a little three-year-old tow. And I also got 75 rounds golf in that year. So it’s, it’s…Rich Birch — That just got some people’s attention. Yeah, that’s amazing.Tim MacLeod — Yeah. The time freedom is stupid. The money is incredible. And, uh, it was, yeah, that was a really, really fun year.Rich Birch — Love it. So what we want to do is send people to your Instagram. Would that be the best? So @thefulltimeflipper, @thefulltimeflipper. And again, you can just comment on any one of his videos.Rich Birch — Well, first of all, Tim’s a great follow on social media. I’ve said this to lots of folks. It’s just such a fun follow. You know, it makes something like flipping just like I was like, man, I think I could do that. And, but just comment scripts on any of those and we’ll get access to those scripts.Rich Birch — And then if you’ll find the link to tim-macleod.com on there as well, which takes you to the course, it’s only a hundred dollars friends. That’s worth your investment. It’ll, it’ll really literally outline. There’s a bunch we could have talked about today and there’s a bunch of details to get into. It will drive into all of those. Literally just take his approach and just do it. Like just, take his scripts, take the what he’s done and apply it. And you’ll for sure be able to find that extra thousand dollars a month or more, you know, down the road. So, yeah, I would love that. and Anywhere else we want to send them. So Instagram, @thefulltimeflipper, anything else about that?Tim MacLeod — Oh, that’s lots. That’s good. And I was feeling pretty pretty silly that I never asked to come on your podcast earlier because a lot of my students are in church ministry in the States. And I think it’s such a sweet side hustle.Tim MacLeod — For me, it was an escape from a job that I didn’t like. But the fact of that most people need supplementary income is pretty across the board and especially in ministry. And a lot of my students have um have had that background and are still in it. And a lot of the time, the people that are in church ministry have an advantage of storage where the church, like they’re like, oh, I got free storage at my church. Pastor said the back room is available. And he said, as long as I just keep a rotation of couches for the student ministry…Rich Birch — Oh, that’s a good call.Tim MacLeod — Yeah, there was a lot of advantage there for church leaders. But yeah, it’s awesome, reliable, supplementary income. And it’s nice to not rely on your ministry for income. Like people aren’t in ministry for the big bucks. They’re there because they that is their purpose. That’s their calling. But the pressure of having to rely on that for income isn’t always the best.Rich Birch — Well, and I do think, um you know, I think folks who are in church ministry, a part of what I why why I think this is great that we’re talking about this is you might underestimate that even like a part of your core, it’s like literally core to your business is like, be kind to people and like be helpful. Tim MacLeod — Yeah.Rich Birch — And, you know, you don’t need to be sleazy. You don’t need to be, ah you know, some sort of like, oh, you’re like a used car salesman of couches. No, that’s not what it is at all. You’re just being kind and helpful and you want to try to close this gap in the market. And and I think there’s a lot of people in ministry who are like, my I could totally do that. I can make that happen for sure. So, Tim, I really appreciate this.Tim MacLeod — It really does feel like stewarding my gifts, you know?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. So again, that is, if you just go to Instagram, @thefulltimeflipper, you should follow them there and then comment scripts for any of those. Appreciate you being on the show today, sir. Thanks so much.Tim MacLeod — Thanks, man.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Scott Landry, Senior Pastor of The Bridge in Ontario. Scott first joined the church in 2013 as a worship and student pastor before later stepping into the senior pastor role. Is your leadership marked by hidden wounds? Do you struggle with vulnerability in your ministry? Are you fighting the wrong battles—externally and internally? Scott recently released his first book, The Fight, a raw, deeply reflective look at the internal battles that shape our lives. Tune in as Scott's story of redemption after hitting rock bottom offers an honest, hopeful picture of what it looks like to stop hiding, confront the truth, and let God rebuild what was lost. Honesty after years of hiding. // After ten years as a “professional Christian”, hiding behind his seminary degree, thriving ministry, external success, Scott’s internal life was crumbling. His marriage ended, his relationship with his daughter was severed, his ministry collapsed, and he hit emotional and spiritual rock bottom. That collapse became the catalyst for transformation—choosing vulnerability and refusing to fake spiritual health. Sharing scars, not open wounds. // Leadership requires discernment about transparency. Scott embraces the principle: share your scars, not your wounds. There is a kind of vulnerability that belongs with counselors, trusted friends, and Jesus alone—and another kind that can help others heal. For Scott, his book, The Fight, became a way to share healed places that might help protect others from making the same mistakes he had. Vulnerability isn't weakness; rather, it's a gift. The act of going first as a leader gives others the courage to do the same. Fighting the right battles. // One of the dangers we face is fighting the wrong battles. Scott uses the story of David and Eliab to illustrate how church leaders often get pulled into conflict—criticism, social media arguments, internal comparison—and miss the “Goliath” right in front of them. We often fight against the people we are supposed to fight for, especially in ministry. Learning to focus on the right fights is essential for healing. The breaking point—and the voice of God. // One of the most powerful moments in his journey is when Scott found himself alone, isolated, and furious at God. In an explosive moment of honesty, he shouted, “I don't even believe in You anymore!” And then he sensed God say: “Then who are you yelling at?” That moment shattered his illusions. His anger, he realized, was evidence of God's presence. God had been waiting for Scott at the place of his deepest anger—the place he had avoided his entire life. Pain as preparation. // Drawing from Joshua's story and the painful preparation before Israel entered the Promised Land, Scott argues that discomfort often precedes destiny. The battles we face now equip us for battles ahead. Instead of asking God to end the fight, ask God to form you through it. Scott’s leadership has since been shaped around embracing discomfort—having hard conversations early, sitting with difficult emotions, and obeying God before understanding. Obedience in writing the book. // Writing The Fight began as an act of pure obedience. Scott resisted God's nudge for a year, until finally acknowledging that he couldn't ask God to bless one area of his life while disobeying Him in another. Once he opened a blank document, the first draft poured out in just three days. The writing became a healing process—one he initially believed was meant only for his children. The surprise has been how deeply his congregation has embraced his honesty and resonated with his story. Visit www.bridgechurches.ca to learn more about The Bridge, and pick up Scott’s book ,The Fight, on Amazon. To connect with Scott, find him on Instagram at @scottmlandry. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don't need more pressure—you need support. That's why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn't stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It's like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You are going to be rewarded today. We’ve got a great conversation lined up. I have my friend Scott Landry with us. He is the lead pastor at a fantastic church called The Bridge in or just outside of Ottawa, Ontario. Rich Birch — He joined the team in 2013 as the pastor of worship and student ministry and now serves as the senior pastor. Just being totally honest, friends, Scott and I are friends in real life. So it’s, these are actually, I find some of the funnier conversations because it’s like this weird conceit of like, we’ve got microphones between us and all of that. So, but Scott, welcome. So glad you’re here today.Scott Landry — Honored to be here with you, and better yet to be your friend.Rich Birch — This is going to be good. This is I’m really look looking forward to today’s conversation. So, um ah dear listener, I’m just going to pull back the the curtain. I really want you to listen in. Scott is an incredible leader and is doing, there’s lots of different things we could talk about, the way you’re using his his leadership and the church is growing and making an impact. And he’s got a bunch of platinum problems that he’s trying to figure out. And you know, where to get space and all that. But, but actually is none of that I want to talk about today. Actually, earlier this year, Scott released and a book. He wrote a book called “The Fight”. And what we’re going to talk about today is a little bit of the content, what it’s about and what led him to that process. And and then about ah the impact on ah his church. And I really want you to listen to in friends, think there’s a lot we can we can take out of this. Rich Birch — Why don’t you, how do you describe the book? When you, someone says like, oh, you wrote a book? What’s that on? I’d love to hear that. I’ve read the book, friends, so you just so you know.Scott Landry — Yeah, um it’s honestly somewhat of an autobiography, but it’s also a personal therapy session that’s on paper. It’s a little bit of biblical perspective in light of those things. And then I think hopefully pointing people who might read it to some level of personal insight or maybe personal application to both, both my story and also more importantly, the scriptural kind of you know, underlying and all of it.Scott Landry — So yeah, it’s not a self-help book, but I think it’s a self-reflective book. Rich Birch — That’s good. Scott Landry — And kind of hoping that people, yeah, hoping that people might see their story in the midst of mine. And and what what are the things that connect or are kind of similar threads through everybody’s story. And, uh, and, and it was, it it was, it was the cheapest version of therapy I could come up with, really. It was a lot of just kind of looking at my life and trying to make sense of it and and trying to find, find words for feelings I didn’t even know I felt. And, uh, yeah. And so just kind of putting it all out there for myself and also, for my kids and then, you know, the, the, you and the three other people that might read it. So it’s great.Rich Birch — Ah, and that’s not true. A lot more people than that have read it. At the core of this book, and we’ll get into this, friends, but at the core of this book, I would say it’s a high level of transparency. Like you are, you know, you let people in on, hey, here’s some stuff that I’ve been wrestling with, you know, over these years.Rich Birch — And I think most pastors think they should be transparent. That always hasn’t been the case. I’ve been in ministry long enough that there was a time where I think people actually wanted religious leaders who seemed perfect and were like… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …they’re these like, they’ve got their whole life together. That’s not the case anymore. People are looking for, and I think leaders want to be transparent. We want we want to kind of be honest with people. But the stakes sometimes feel higher for some reason. So what kind of led you to the place where you’re like, hey, I want to be vulnerable in a way, ah in written form, with your people, with the community around you?Scott Landry — Yeah, that’s a great question. Honestly, I think it was the fact that I hadn’t been authentic and vulnerable for too long and then lost everything because of it. You know, obviously I write in the book about my journey. I was a pastor for 10 years. I had a a seminary degree and didn’t have an unSeminary one, but I had the degree on the wall and I had, you know, the…Rich Birch — The real one, the real one.Scott Landry — They’re the real one. Yeah. And, uh, but I had all of that. I had 10 years of, of experience standing on stages and preaching the gospel and sharing who Jesus was. And, but the truth is I never really bought what I’d been selling, like in a personal, intimate way. And I wouldn’t say I was good at selling it, but I, but certainly, you know, had been doing it long enough, and and and and in some ways had been successful doing that. like Like good things were happening, ministry was growing, you know people were excited. And so then there becomes this like, oh, well, the lie, it’s amazing the lies that we can tell ourselves and the things that we can convince ourselves of. Scott Landry — So as a professional Christian for 10 years, you know, talking about but all these things and then my own life being a complete mess. And so as a leader, I’m sure other leaders that are listening to this can relate like I’m a dreamer. I always have been, always will be. But I was living a nightmare. And and for I was I had actually become a villain in my own story.Scott Landry — And and and I lost everything. A marriage fell apart. A relationship with my daughter, it was was severed at a very young age. She was four. Ministry was over. Like it was it was all done in an instant. And so 10 years of of hiding and not being, not authentic just for the people, but to my own self. And so when God resurrected my life and resurrected ministry, which I never thought was gonna happen, I was like, that that can’t ever happen again.Scott Landry — And so I wanted to kind of be someone who would lead by going first and saying, you know, and, and so I’ve been vulnerable and transparent from the pulpit. But this was something else. And, and I still am not sure why God prompted me to do this, but, but I would say, I never, I never want to go back to hiding. Scott Landry — And I think, I think we hide for a lot of reasons. I think there’s pastors or leaders listening to this. We hide, ultimately, I think we can give all the excuses we want, but it’s like, who you going to tell? Who you and what are you going to tell them? And and the minute you do, it’s like, well, then I’m going to be disqualified. I’m going to lose my job. Like, so it’s like, we kind of do this thing where I think I shared with you before. It’s like, I’m going to, we we almost force ourselves into a corner and convince ourselves we’re going to fake it till we make it. And ultimately what ends up happening is we fake it till we’re found out. Scott Landry — And and that’s, I mean, we’ve we’ve heard so many stories of that. And I was just like, that happened to me and I would hate for it to happen to anyone else. And I certainly am not going to let it happen to me again.Rich Birch — Yeah, I, friends, you can see why I’ve had Scott on today. There’s a lot here to, I think that all of us need to wrestle with. In fact, one of the, when I didn’t, didn’t even told you this, this is one of the the things I was, when I was reading it, um I had a mentor, a guy I worked for earlier in my career who his life has spectacularly failed. He had to has one of these situations that’s just blown up, and ministry’s blown up and all that. Rich Birch — And ironically, I find there’s ah multiple things about his leadership that I carry with me. And one of the things that I remember him saying very early on was he was like, there’s this interesting dance we do as leaders where we let people in. We know we have to let people into our, into our story, but we only let them in far enough. Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — We only let them in some, to something. And you’re always going to draw that line somewhere. The question is, where do you draw that line? And, um you know, you’ve chosen to to be very open and say, hey, this is my experience. This is who I’ve been here. And you kind of cast it in the book, not kind of, it’s literally called “The Fight”. You cast it in the book as an internal fight, the stuff beneath the service that shapes ultimately who we become. How do you discern, where are you drawing that line? How much are we able to, how transparent can we really be?Scott Landry — Yeah. That’s a great question. I think for me, it’s a few things. I’m not sure who said it. Um, but I, I, I’ve heard it said multiple different ways, but like, you know, you share your scars, not your wounds. So I’ve kind of, I think there’s a lot of truth to that. So for me, it’s like, if I’m still bleeding, that’s for therapy. That’s for trusted friends. That’s for my wife. That’s for Jesus.Scott Landry — But if it’s a wound that has, that is healed, and somebody can see their story in it and it’s helpful for them as either they’re still bleeding or or it could prevent them from getting hurt, then to me it’s worth sharing. Scott Landry — I’ve kind of come to the conclusion in my life, vulnerability isn’t weakness. it it’ it’s It’s actually it’s actually a gift. It’s there there is something to vulnerability in sitting with someone. You and I have done this without microphones in front of us. And we’ve we’ve told things to each other with tears in our eyes. And there’s something powerful that happens. That is a gift that you give someone. And it’s a gift for for what you give them and what you share to them.Scott Landry — But it’s also the gift to them that’s like this could, I could actually do this myself. It’s freeing for me to be given this gift to know it might not be with you, but with someone I could do that too. And, and that gift, I don’t think we truly understand how freeing and the weight that could be lifted by going first in that way. So for me, I’ve just decided that’s that’s who I’m going to be moving forward. So that the book is “The Fight” and because life is a fight. And to me, vulnerability and authenticity are worth fighting for.Rich Birch — I’d love to dig into some of the some of the stuff that you actually talk about in the book, kind of dig a couple layers deeper. You write about the danger of fighting the wrong battles that we can find ourselves in conversations that we we shouldn’t be in. You know, pulling out this… talk us through that. How does that relate? How have you seen that in your life?Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — And then what is that? How do you lead differently out of that? Because, you know, how do we pick the right battles? Talk me through that.Scott Landry — Yeah, I think it’s a personal thing. It certainly applies to leadership as well on a personal level. I think many times we fight, we fight with the people we’re supposed to fight for.Scott Landry — I think we fight amongst family members and, and then, you know, times goes by and you’re like, was that even worth it? I think, so I think those things happen. It’s like, how many fights have you had with your spouse? And it’s like I’m supposed to be fighting with you, not against you. Like we’re supposed to be in this together. And I’ve seen that happen in leadership too. It’s amazing to me how church people can, can hurt each other and and fight with each other and over things like carpet and and song selections and song volume and and preaching styles.Scott Landry — And so for me in leadership, it’s fighting the wrong battles. I talk about it, the David and Eliab thing, and you know, on the, on the battlefield where Goliath is kind of waiting in the wings and it’s really the main event. And, so much could have been so different if David had wasted his time in that argument. And, and he would have been justified in doing it. I mean, his, his character was being questioned. I mean, that’s worth fighting against. And it’s like, David’s like, I don’t get time for this, right? And I think how many of us as leaders spend so much time in the comment section, we’re fighting critics and we’re missing out on the giants. Rich Birch — Yeah.Scott Landry — You know, you, you, like that that in our culture, I think, is a huge one for leaders. And it’s like…Rich Birch — Yeah, big deal.Scott Landry — …oh, we’re so…And and I’m I’m guilty of that. You know we’re the other one I struggle with, I’m sure no one listening to this could can relate to this, but I spend so I spend so much time spending energy on who’s left, and not who’s here or who could be coming. And it’s like, and and you know what? Many times the people who’ve left, they were never really here anyway. Now that’s not to say we haven’t done something wrong at times and hurt people, but it’s like, man, I’ve I’ve spent so much time trying to convince that one person. Cause I’m like, oh, Jesus would leave the 99 to go after the one. And I’m like, maybe not that one. No, I’m just kidding.Rich Birch — That’s good. I like that.Scott Landry — But you know what I mean? Like but…Rich Birch — Yes.Scott Landry — …but we do. And and it’s it’s tragic how how distracted we can become. And and we we miss out in the fights that matter most because of ones that weren’t worth fighting to begin with.Rich Birch — Well, and this this is why we’ve seen a lot of pastors make the decision, church leaders make the decision, like, I just need to step back from social media. Because it’s like, you know, it’s like it’s like it’s set up for us to pick fights with other church leaders. Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — Like, it’s like, you know, that people are out there and there’s and there seems like there are for whatever reason, there are ah brothers and sisters in the faith who, who think that it’s their job to agitate, like that they’re like the professional agitators out there. And it’s like, so then we’re fighting with some other pastor or whatever, but that’s not, that’s like a total distraction from our mission. Like this, who, that person’s going to Jesus is going to be fine. Like, what about, like you say, the people that aren’t here yet. Rich Birch — There’s a moment in the book where you describe kind of being hitting a rock bottom or hitting an emotional bottom and crying out to God. Would you mind opening up a little bit about that? What did that teach you?Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, what God meets us when, when all our strength runs out.Scott Landry — Well, yeah, that the, I mean, that I hope that’s a powerful moment in the book because it was it genuinely the most powerful moment in my life. And this was this was kind of at the crescendo of my my breaking point. So after after, you know, my my marriage and my my my life specifically falling apart. And I kind of lived in a place of isolation. I was living in, in, in, in the North, Canadian North. And, I was, yeah, I was lost. I was, I was angry. Like I had so much anger. And it was, so yeah, I talk about in the book. And, and, uh, I was angry and ultimately I was angry at myself, but I was also angry at God.Scott Landry — And, um, because even after, again, making a mess of my own life. Like He didn’t make a mess of my life. Nobody made the mess of my life. I made the mess of my life. And, but then after that, I was trying to do everything right. And I was trying to, you know, do the right thing, do the right thing. And I was like, God, when are you going to start intervening on my behalf. And so, you know, being the the preacher that I am, I was like, I got all the Bible verses that tell me that you’re going to like now is you’re going to do the redemptive thing. You’re going to show up, you’re going to move, you’re going to fix, you’re going to redeem, you’re going to restore, you’re going to repair, you’re going to do all the R words. And, and nothing was happening. Like it was like… Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — …and, and it was almost as if I, heard and I literally heard nothing. And I’d like to say I didn’t feel anything, but I did. It was just this, this anger that was welling up inside of me, like a, like a pot boiling. And eventually it just, I just became unhinged. Like I was alone. And I was completely isolated. I was in this, you know, empty house and I just started crying out like, and yelling out. And I threw, I threw things. I used words I’ve, I’m ashamed to admit I used. Like, I mean, I was as unhinged as could possibly, I was like, I gotta, if I saw you face to face, I would give you the thing. Like I told him all this stuff.Scott Landry — And, and what I found in that moment was like, and again, I talk about it in the book, but like I yelled, God, I don’t even believe in you anymore. I’m done. Like, like I don’t I don’t believe. You’ve promised me that you would never leave me. You would never forsake me. And that’s exactly what you’ve done. I’ve told people that you would never leave them and forsake them. And yet you’ve done that to me. You are you are dead to me. I don’t believe in you anymore. And I even now, I still feel this when I’m just talking about it. But like, this is, and this is, I know some people are going to roll their eyes at this. But like, genuinely, when I heard myself say that, I felt this like, over me, over my house. It was like this eerie like pause. And I heard, as if I’ve ever heard the voice of God, I heard a voice say, well, then who are you yelling at? And it was like this, like… Rich Birch — Beautiful. Scott Landry — …and in that moment, it was like, my anger was, it wasn’t my degree. It wasn’t my Bible. It was, it was my anger was my evidence that God was present right then and right there. And because my anger was directed at him. And he knew that I was angry with him.Scott Landry — And he met me at the place of my anger. And he was waiting. And this is the part that I still, I can’t do this, what’s what’s in my head, into my heart justice. But it was God was saying, I’ve been waiting for you at this place your whole life.Rich Birch — Wow. Right.Scott Landry — You have been hiding from this anger from your childhood, from your young adulthood, and I’ve been waiting for you to meet me here at your anger. And I’ve I’ve wanted you to know that I would be here waiting for you. And if you met me on the top of the tallest mountain, and if you look me face to face, and if you were to give me the finger, you would find me there waiting because I am waiting at who you really are, not who you’re pretending to be.Scott Landry — And everyone around you, you’ve got them fooled and you’re used car salesman and you can spin the Bible verses and you can do all that other stuff. But I know who you really are. And I’m waiting for you to finally be honest with yourself about who you really are. And now that you finally are, now we can do something about that together.Scott Landry — And that was the moment that God truly revealed himself to me. And that’s when I, for the first time in my life, truly discovered who I was. And yeah, that that’s the moment that I hope anybody who ever meets me or talks to me or listens to me or reads in it, like that’s the part that I long for people to have before it costs them like it costs me.Rich Birch — I just want to say thank you for for going there and talking about that. Because to me, that…and friends, you should pick up a copy of the book. I’m not trying to sell the book, but you should pick up a copy and actually…it’s worth it for this interaction. Because I think as pastors, people who are in what we do, I think we can give, we can put a varnish on all of this. And it and and I love that picture of you yelling at God. And then and then he’s like, well who are you yelling at? Like, what’s, what’s you you know…Scott Landry — Yeah. You don’t believe it. You don’t believe in me, but you’re yelling at me. Yeah. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yes. Like, I think, I think that is such a, I don’t know, there’s so much there. And I think it’s beautiful that you would open up about that and tell, talk to us here. I feel a little bit bad because I feel like I’m getting you to mine out like one of the best parts of the book, but that, um, at its core, I think would be hard for a lot of leaders to even admit to say, because by this point, friends, again, remember the pre-story, you had been a professional Christian for a long time. Like that that you had built your life around taking money from people… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and doing this and came to that moment of crisis. So talk to me about the road back from there. So there’s obviously, you know, between there and today, you know, something happened. So talk us through… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …kind of what were some of those key steps? We’re not going to be able to cover all of it, but some of those key things that, that God used on that journey.Scott Landry — Yeah. Well, the immediate one was that I needed to get away. I was living in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories at the time, and I needed to get to Ontario because that’s where my four-year-old daughter was. And that necessity was kind of the you know the spark of of God beginning a redemptive work in my life.Scott Landry — And and then again, had never thought that I would be back in you know ministry in terms of you know a job or a career. I I I and iI wasn’t I had no idea what I was gonna do. And so I just did what I had to do to survive.Scott Landry — And, and, and again, God just, it’s the, it’s, it’s all this cliches. It’s all the songs we sing. It’s, you know, he made beauty for ashes. He, he resurrected things I was certain was dead. And so, and, and there were, he was orchestrating things to, to, you know, provide another way for me to get back into what he called me to do, which, you know, again, I, I, it would take me a long time to, to get into it. Rich Birch — Yes. Scott Landry — But I, again, I think it was just, it was, I just took the steps I had to take because I, and, but they were the steps that he was preparing for me to take, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Scott Landry — It’s and I, and I see that now, but it didn’t, it just felt like, like necessity then. But it was more than necessity. It was, it was intention. So, yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, I don’t I don’t know if I’ve said this to you, but I think, in fact, I’m pretty sure I haven’t said this to you. One of the, you know, I mentioned, and and you know the person I’m talking about whose life fell apart. You know, one of my own reflections on that experience as a leader that was in that person’s orbit, pretty close to that orbit, in hindsight, um was we have to do a better, the collective we have to do a better job on helping people to talk about what’s going on on the inside in a way that doesn’t just immediately jump to, hey, like, you you know, you should not think that thought. Like, you know, we we need to be better at that. And I you think you’ve done a gift in this, you know, this with this book. Rich Birch — One of the things you also talked about is this whole idea that comfort can be the enemy of our calling. And I wish you didn’t write about this, but because, ah you know, it’s like convenience is and comfort are organizing principles of culture, right? That is like our entire culture is based around how do I make myself more comfortable? And and it’s true. I agree. Like I’m, you know, I’ve been on the Peloton and I’ve felt discomfortable. And then at the end of that, I’m like, I’m glad I did that in the middle of it. I was hating it. I get that. Talk us through that. What’s that journey been like in this kind of return home? How has that played a, you know, a part of that as a part of the journey?Scott Landry — Yeah, I think I think what I’ve learned is pain is always preparation. And and to me, I use the word always because I don’t see it never being that. I think there’s always something in in in a situation of discomfort or pain that is always preparing you for something that’s next for you or something that’s next for someone else that’s going to require you to be a part of it.Scott Landry — So the pain that I go through a lot of times is is you know preparing my my son or my daughter. Um, and so it’s always preparation for something. And that’s what I write about in the book, the story of Joshua, you know, it’s, it’s the most uncomfortable thought in the world that, you know, the, the, before their greatest battle, they, they’re circumcised, as, as men. And it’s like, oh, you know, that’s, that’s one conversation when the kid’s like a couple days old or eight days old as it was supposed to be. But when you’re, you know, 18, 20, that’s a whole different conversation.Scott Landry — And, Any guy that’s listening right now feels uncomfortable, but that’s, but that’s the point. God brought them to a place specifically to bring pain into their lives because of the destiny that he had for them.Scott Landry — And I think that’s just true in life, you know, it’s, and, and, and going through those things is crucial. It’s always, there’s always something next. And I think that’s the thing that I’ve, and again, I use the analogy of the fight and I tried to do that in the book because I, you know, I’m not a fighter in terms of like, I don’t do, you know, mixed martial arts or anything. I love that stuff and I love watching it. And I love boxing, which the the movie Rocky was part of the inspiration for the book or at least the theme of it.Scott Landry — And I think when you look like look at that stuff, what you always see is fighters fight a fight, so they can fight another fight. It’s like, I want to win this fight because I want to win this fight, but winning this fight sets me up for another fight that has greater reward for me.Scott Landry — And so I’m I’m inspired to win this fight because it’s going to put me or it’s going to allow me to fight on another level and another dimension. And I think, you know, in leadership, I think the challenges or the platinum problems, as you call them, you know, I think those are preparation. They’re not just to solve and the problem itself to be solved. It’s also preparation for a problem that’s coming because of getting through this one.Scott Landry — And I think when we start to see it that way and we can view the fight as like, I always pray that God will cause the fight to end. Like, God, just, just stop. Like, get me through this fight. Instead of praying, God, will you help me become the person in the midst of this fight that I need to be for the fight that’s coming down the road? It, that perspective, I think changes everything.Scott Landry — And if as leaders, we looked at our current challenges and struggles as like, hey, this is just preparation for something bigger. I think we’d i think we’d go into it a whole lot differently. And I think we would be willing to endure it just and with a different mindset. And so, yeah, that’s that’s what I’ve I’ve come to discover my own life through this thing.Rich Birch — Like our friend T.D. Jakes said, every level, a new devil. Like it’s like, right?Scott Landry — Yeah, yeah, totally.Rich Birch — This idea of like, hey, we’re going to get through this, but then that’s just going to open up something else that we got to get through. And I think that’s, I think it’s a great metaphor and is, I see too many people who are, and it could be, you know, people of my age or whatever.Rich Birch — I must, you know, you reach a certain age with enough zeros on the end. You hit a couple of those zero birthdays. And then you look around at your friends and you’re like, the people that, that don’t inspire me are the ones that are hitting the coast mode. Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — That are like, Hey, I’m going to try to, i’m going to try to make life more comfortable. It’s the people that are saying, no, let’s lean in. Let’s look, what can we do next? What is the thing that God’s got for us? I love that. Well…Scott Landry — Well, I tell people, oh, sorry, I was just going to say just…Rich Birch — Go ahead. No, go ahead.Scott Landry — …well, just to to kind of follow up on that. I think practically, what does that mean? Or what does that look like for us? Like, I you know, we talk to our staff all the time, right? I, you know, constantly tell them it’s like, to embrace that means in leadership, you’ve got to have uncomfortable conversations now because you’re going to have them anyway. Rich Birch — Right.Scott Landry — So comfort tells us, oh, like if I just let it go or if I just like, no, you’re you’re just prolonging the inevitable conversation. So have it now. Rich Birch — Yeah.Scott Landry — You know, or or you sit with emotions that you’re feeling. You got to sit with them a little longer before you act on them. That’s not comfortable. We want to just, you know, so it’s that balance. Like it’s, It’s, ah you know, even obeying before understanding, right?Scott Landry — Like, like you’ve got like all those lessons and those places of discomfort, I think are all preparation pieces for the greater thing. So…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah. And even in the physical world, like I was thinking about this when I was on my Peloton prepping for this. And I know you have Peloton, that like there was a time when there would be numbers on the screen in front of me that those numbers felt like death. Like I’m like, this is not like, I can’t keep doing this. But then what happens over time is you, your body acclimatizes to that, right? You become healthier. You get your cardiovascular system, your VO2 max grows, and then you’re able to, ah you know, to carry more. And I think that is true in leadership. I think that’s true in our spiritual life. I think there is like a, you know, kind of bearing on the weight of it. And um yeah, I think that’s very true. Rich Birch — Okay. I’d love to pivot in a totally different direction. So, you know, again, friends, you should pick up a copy of the book because I think it’ll be great. It’s spiritually enriching experience for you. I think this book could be helpful in like, there’s lots of conversations where I’m like, I think, I think this could be one of those books you have on your shelf. And you said, Hey, you know what, why don’t you read this book? This might help you think through, you know, might be a real encouragement. So I will, we’ll get to where you can get that in a minute. Rich Birch —But I want to kind of talk more about kind of the meta experience of you as a pastor, writing a book, choosing to do that. When you first introduced me to this idea, I still remembered it. You were like, I do not want to write a book. I am writing a book. Like, and it was like this, I am compelled. It is by obedience that I am, who knows? I think literally the thing you said to me the first time, and it was through tears, was like, I’m not really even sure why like I’m doing this thing, who knows? So talk to me about that obedience. What did that first step look like? Kind of help me ah or understand the process. Talk about that a little bit.Scott Landry — Yeah, it’s funny. You did a great version of me there. That’s exactly how I said it. And that’s exactly how I felt. And I honestly, I still feel that way, even now that it’s out there in in the world. Yeah, it was totally an act of of obedience. Scott Landry — And so for context, two years ago, my family vacations in Florida. I, I have no shame. I mooch off my in-laws who have a condo there. My wife and I both lived there at one, at one point. So it’s kind of like going home. Scott Landry — But anyway, long story, I was running on the beach. And, and I just, I felt like the Lord just stopped me and he gave me two very clear directives for the next chapter of my life. One was about the church and the other was to write a book.Scott Landry — And the first one made complete sense to me. And the other one still makes absolutely no sense to me. I am not an, writer. I’m not an author. I’m not ah like, and who am I? Like all this kind of, you know, who am I syndrome started kicking in and and I was just like, whatever. So I came back two years ago and I got to work on the first one and ignored the second one.Scott Landry — And I ignored the second one, writing a book for an entire year. And then on my birthday in September, I just, I felt like I was, I was genuinely like, how can I ask God to bless this first thing that he’s asked me to do if I’m being disobedient in this other thing that he’s asked me to do? And I, I don’t understand it. So to me, I’m, that justifies why I’m not doing it. And I was like, I’ve got to be obedient to this, whether I understand it or not. So that’s what I did. And so for me, obedience was opening a blank document. And just starting. And that’s what I did.Scott Landry — And it was, and I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, Rich, but it was amazing to me. I’ve had writer’s block for sermons. This poured out of me… Rich Birch — Wow. Scott Landry — …in a way I was not expecting. Like it it was the draft that you read of the book or the first draft of the book was done in a little over three days.Rich Birch — Yeah.Scott Landry — It just…Rich Birch — Well, that surprised me even, you know, cause I remember you were, and that hasn’t been my experience with writing. It’s been like, I have found it like arduous. But I remember you’re like, Oh, I’m going away. I’m going to this thing. And then it was like, Oh yeah, I got it done. And I was like, wow. Like that’s, that’s incredible. That’s amazing. And then obviously then there’s all the editing and you got to actually get it.Scott Landry — Well, yeah, I, yeah, everything after that was way longer than I or wanted it to be um um for sure.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Scott Landry — And way more than I expected it to be. But I think, I think I needed to me, to me, it was a piece of, it was a document that was basically like a therapy session that didn’t cost me anything other than time…Rich Birch — Right. Right.Scott Landry — …that I needed to get a lot of stuff off my chest and and off my heart. And it just, I needed to open that document to do it. And I think maybe that is, and it didn’t occur to me until just now, that that may be the very reason that God wanted me to do it… Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — …was to free me of that so I could be released to do whatever has nothing about to do about the book. It just was his way of getting me to get through it.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I remember at one point, um hopefully I’m not outing something. We can cut this if you don’t want me to say this, but I remember at one point you were saying like, even if I just have it for my daughter, that would be a gift, right?Rich Birch — Like it’s like for her at some point to read this would be, um you know, a gift. Actually, I know a friend of mine who has literally done that has written full books and literally got like got them printed and given it just to them for their kids.Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, tens of thousands of words. So yeah, that’s, that’s, ah that’s incredible. So, you know, the writing of books in general, is I find the line between writing and thinking is very blurry. Like it’s like, it’s like almost in my mind, like it’s kind of the same thing. Like it’s the same activity. There’s obviously writing involved, but it’s like, it’s, it costs, it’s a, or it, it drives a lot of reflection, honesty, you know, thinking about all that stuff. Was there anything as you went through this therapy process of writing that actually just surprised you about like, Oh wow. Like that was either my reflection on that was different or, um, you know, we’re, you know, like anything surprised you through the process process?Scott Landry — Yeah, there was a…good question. There was a couple things for sure. One of them was I had to go check. It’s amazing how your memory can be your greatest enemy. I remembered certain things a certain way and then going back and talking to my mother. Again, spoiler alert – I grew up in a single parent household. My mom is my hero, strongest woman ever.Scott Landry — Anyways, and I write about her and, and my life growing up and what she had to do to get us through. So, so going back and, and, and really at as an adult, getting the details of what actually happened and what my perception of what happened happened. It was it was It was much worse than I understood…Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Scott Landry — …and what she endured and went through. And I gained a level of admiration from my, I thought I admired her, but I gained a level of admiration that is a gift. And, and, and every child should have the gift to see their parents the way that I see my mom. She is, she is amazing. Scott Landry — So that, that’s one. The other one was, was I there was some things that I, I learned along the way. I think the first one was that I found was about the, the resentment that I had towards my father. And I, and, and I, as I was writing it, God just kind of revealed this to me that, that adapting, adapting to loss is different than than winning a fight. And I had adapted to the pain of what I had lost. And I thought that was the same thing as winning that fight against resentment. And they’re not the same thing. Scott Landry — And that was that that was a real breakthrough moment for me. I was in a cabin near a ski hill as I was writing that. And it was like i was almost like I was watching a movie, watching myself have a moment. Rich Birch — Wow. Scott Landry — And it was just this this really beautiful moment between God and I. And I was just like, wow, God, thank you for for showing that to me. And then, give me the words to articulate this to my kids. Cause you’re right. I, I did first and foremost, write this for my kids, Emma and Parker. And I wanted them to know, you know, who they come from, what they come from. And, and, and hopefully if I never get the chance to tell them, they’ve got this to fall back on. And then my wife being my wife was like, well, if you’re going to do it for them, you might as well go all the way. So, so that’s, that’s, that’s what we did.Rich Birch — Wow. Okay. So what did this process teach you as you’ve now, cause you’ve launched this book, it’s out in the world. You’ve, you can get it on Amazon. You, you know, it’s, you’ve done a series at the church. You’ve talked about it. You know, if you’ve been public about it. Rich Birch — What did the launching of that teach you about your congregation, about your church? What resonated? What, how, how was it helpful? Any conversations that sparked kind of what was the impact that you’ve, now that you’ve landed this in, in your church?Scott Landry — Yeah. Oh, I just got emotional there thinking about your question as you’re asking it. I think… what I talk about in the book, Rich, is that I’m a very insecure person. And and as a leader, I’m an insecure leader. And always, you know, that that dance between, you know, being authentic about who you are at the same time, the insecurity about that. And it’s, Lisa, my wife tells me all the time, if people knew how insecure you are, they they wouldn’t believe it, because you don’t present that way.Scott Landry — But I was very insecure about doing this thing and the people that I serve, and and and journey together with seeing me in a way that they might change their mind about me. But the people at The Bridge, they love me, and they are so gracious to me. And I what I’ve discovered is that me being honest about who I am is is who they’ve wanted me to be the whole time.Scott Landry — And so everybody that’s read the book, I shouldn’t say everybody, but I’ve gotten a lot of feedback from the people at The Bridge just thanking me for telling my story and then them saying so much of that I relate to, so much of that I needed right now telling me things about themselves that I had no idea was happening in their lives. And this has only been out for like a month. Scott Landry — And so I’ve just gotten overwhelmed with, with people’s responses. And, and I think for our church, you know, one of our values is authentic storytelling And so, um, it just so happens that as a leader, you get to go first Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — And, and, and and in order for that value to be more than something that’s just plastered on a wall or a website, like I had, I didn’t know it was going to be in in the form of a book. But I do see that, that people are opening up in ways that, you know, just in the, in the in the last month to me and in others. So, yeah, but that that’s the thing that that i’ve I’ve seen in our church is just um that that I’ve been insecure about how I’m seen as a leader and and they’ve shown me that that they love me. And that’s the greatest gift, I’m telling you.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool, man. I love that. That’s, and thanks for being vulnerable in your sharing there. Like I think I, you know, I think there is anyone that’s written has had a book definitely has those feelings on the inside of like, oh man, this was a bad idea like why am I doing this. And like I’m you know, the stuff I’ve written about is nowhere near as, you know, personal and tender as what you’ve written. And I can identify exactly with what you’re saying there around the like, what will people think of me? You know, and it’s amazing. Rich Birch — So trying to extract a bit of, you know, there might be people that are listening and I hope there’s people that are listening in who would think like, maybe I should write a book. Or maybe, maybe they had a similar experience where God told them to write a book and they’ve been dragging their feet. Scott Landry — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — What would be a couple kind of just practical takeaways, like maybe things you would say, I wish I would have known this before timelines, collaboration, editing, any of that kind of stuff.Scott Landry — Yeah. Well, the first thing I would do is thankfully what I did, was talk to people who have done it. So you were one of those people and I was hoping that you were going to convince me not to do it. Thanks thanks for letting me down. But yeah, just like, and, and, you know, it’s like, Hey, talk to a few different people and, and, and, you know, what’s their process is and and kind of what they did. Scott Landry — But the other thing that I learned quickly was everybody that I talked to does it differently. And so it wasn’t about figuring out the process. It was about finding my own. Rich Birch — Yep.Scott Landry — And so I kind of leaned on what I know of myself and how I kind of operate. And so that was one.Scott Landry — I think the other one was You know, however much time you think it’s going to take, double it and then add some to that. Like it’s way more time than you think it’s going to going to take.Scott Landry — I would, you know, what do they say? Like find people in your life who tell you what you need to know, not what you want to hear. Like it’s like whoever you’re going to invite into the process with you, like you want to collaborate with people who are going to tell you the truth, not that you’re profound. It’s like, yeah, like I, I wanted this to be the best that it could be for my kids.Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — And that’s why I asked, you know, you and a few others. And so, um, and then I think, you know, the other one is, is really have a clear, at least for me, and I don’t know if this is true for you, but it’s like, I’m sure it is, like, you know who you’re writing to and who you’re writing for. Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — And I think that has to be like, every time I sat down, like after a coffee and was like, okay, here, we’re opening up the laptop again, it was like, I pictured Emma. I pictured Parker. This is who I’m writing this for. It’s like who, so whether if it’s a, if it’s a book for your church, if it’s a book for leaders, you know, whoever that’s for is like have a very clear picture in your mind, who your audience is and and imagine faces that represent those people.Scott Landry — Because I think it, to me at least, is it makes it less about the content and it brings the heart into it. And I think that I hope that and is what engages people more than, because I’m not a writer. But I hope my heart comes through the words that are on the pages. And I think that’s just because I had those two beautiful kids in mind.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. That’s a great, that’s a great tip. I, the, that idea of focusing who is the person. And I worked at a church that had a very robust practice kind of sermon practice process. And that’s one of the things, one of the questions we would often ask is like, who are you preaching this to? And I loved, cause our lead guy, he would get like really specific. It wouldn’t be like, it’s not like, well, I’m generally thinking 33 year old, you know, guys that are married. He’d be like, Scott Landry… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, like he would like, it’s like he would pick out a specific person. He said, I’m hoping that that that’s who I’m thinking about. And that always struck me as like, I think that’s a part of what gave him great kind of power in his communication because it wasn’t this vague idea of like this, some general target. It’s like, no, I’m talking to this person and I want to, I want to communicate in a way that will move them. I think that’s great when you think about from a book point of view. Rich Birch — Well, I want to encourage people to pick up a copy of the book. But before we get there, any kind of last words about any of this that you want to share? You’ve been so generous with your time today.Scott Landry — No, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you having me on. And if anybody’s gotten to the end of this podcast and is even considering, you know, getting a copy of the book, I guess my heart for you would be to discover what I discovered the hard way, but I hope that it doesn’t require you to to find out the hard way is that that God truly knows who you truly are. And all he desperately wants is for you to be honest about who he already knows you are. And and then he wants to release that person for the purpose that he has for them. And so I pray that it doesn’t take whoever you are, you losing what I lost to find that. I hope that you will be wiser than I was. Learn, you know, don’t learn from your own mistakes, learn from mine. And, and, and, and find yourself because you’re going to find God there waiting. And I hope that for you and pray that for you.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s great. So we want to send people to Amazon. Is that the best place that they can pick up copies of this book? Is there anywhere else we want to send them just as we wrap up today’s episode?Scott Landry — No, yeah, Amazon, the book “The Fight” is there. Can also follow me on Instagram. Keep updates there – @scottmlandry. Yeah, you can see pictures my sneakers. That’s about it.Rich Birch — It’s great. Thanks so much, Scott. Appreciate you being here.Scott Landry — Thank you, Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Sarah Hooley, Executive Pastor at City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Founded in 2016 by Lead Pastor Chris Freeman, City Church is a young, rapidly growing, intentionally multi-ethnic, multi-economic, and multi-generational church. Since moving from a setup/teardown environment into their renovated 60,000-square-foot facility, the church has experienced explosive growth—reaching 2,500–2,600 weekly attendees, baptizing nearly 500 people this year, and engaging a high percentage of unchurched and new-to-faith individuals. Is your church reaching people far from Jesus but struggling to disciple them well? Are you navigating the complexities that come with rapid growth? Tune in as Sarah shares how City Church reaches, welcomes, disciples, and mobilizes people who often arrive with little to no church background. Reaching the unchurched at scale. // From the beginning, City Church planted itself intentionally in one of Fort Wayne's most racially diverse neighborhoods. Many guests arrive with no church vocabulary. Many don't know the difference between the Old and New Testament or famous biblical characters. Teaching, therefore, is designed with zero assumptions, helping newcomers feel included while still deeply challenging long-time believers. Worship reflects the church's diversity, blending musical styles in a way that unites cultures rather than centering one preference. Many first-time attendees hear about the church through friends who aren't yet believers themselves—evidence that transformation is visibly taking root. Welcoming culture built by transformed people. // One of the most powerful forces shaping City Church is its culture of warmth and belonging. Their Connections Director, Victoria, came to Christ through City Church herself—giving her deep empathy for the unchurched experience and a passion for noticing people. Her team is trained not just to greet but to see people, engage them meaningfully, and make church feel safe and familiar. Serve teams are intentionally open to nonbelievers as a front door for community and spiritual curiosity—allowing people to “belong before they believe.” This relational warmth is often the defining difference-maker for guests who have never experienced church before. Discipleship for people with no foundation. // Rapid growth and a high percentage of new believers revealed a critical discipleship gap. In response, Pastor Chris launched Act Like Men, a 15-week, high-accountability discipleship course for young men covering identity, integrity, purity, humility, servanthood, and spiritual discipline. Women quickly asked for something similar, prompting the launch of Be Bold Women, a complementary course that includes teaching, mentoring, small groups, a women's conference, and topics like emotional health, community, and living as a godly woman. A volunteer-driven church with a tiny staff. // One of the most stunning aspects of City Church is how much ministry happens through volunteers rather than staff. With only seven full-time staff and roughly 2,600 attendees, their ratio is radically outside national norms. Staff serve as equippers, not doers. High-level volunteer leaders oversee major portions of ministry: shadowing, training, leading teams, scheduling people, and pastoring others. Leadership development is an essential form of discipleship, not an operational necessity. Leading from abundance, not scarcity. // Sarah encourages leaders to adopt a “loaves and fishes” mindset – the question is not what the church lacks but what God can do with what it has. Simplicity, clarity, and focus keep the team aligned. Staff calibrate constantly, coaching one another to resist the pull toward doing everything themselves. Sarah also stresses the importance of relational support systems for leaders—cohorts, mentors, and peers who remind pastors that faithfulness, not outcomes, is the goal. To learn more about City Church, visit forthecity.com, or follow them on social media at @citychurchfw. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. This is going to be a jam-packed episode. You’re going to want to buckle up. We’re talking about a lot of stuff today that applies to your church that I know will be super helpful. I’m excited to be talking to Sarah Hooley. She is the executive pastor at a church called City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. This is a church you should be tracking with. If you’re not, they were founded in 2016 by lead pastor Chris Freeman. It’s a diverse church in a city that is for the city with multi-ethnic, multi-economic, multi-generational community. It’s really, God’s doing some incredible things here, and you’re going to want to track along with that. And we’ve got Sarah on the show to help us. Sarah, welcome to the show. Sarah Hooley — Thank you so much for having me. It is a privilege to be joining you today. Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be wonderful. I’m really looking forward to learning from you. Why don’t you tell us a little bit of the City Church story, kind of set up. Tell us a little bit about it. What’s going on Give us a sense of what’s happening at City Church. Sarah Hooley — Yeah, so we are a nine-year-old church plant. We were a set-up, teardown church for the last eight or so years ah seven and a half. We’ve move we bought a grocery store in 2020. Rich Birch — Good year. Sarah Hooley — Great time to buy a building, and and it was being used as a warehouse. And so we bought it and then the pandemic happened and we’re like, well, we still have a warehouse occupying the space. Maybe at some point it’ll become a church. We don’t know. And then it was just about a couple years ago that we then started a capital campaign and went to develop the the space. It’s 60,000 square feet. We developed about 40,000 square feet of it for our church. Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — I’m thinking, man, that’s going to, we’ll be set for a good long time. And we are out of space already. Rich Birch — Yes. Sarah Hooley — And so and we moved from two services to three. And now we’re just, excuse me, trying to figure out what do we do? um God has just been moving in incredible ways. Like we have from the from the start been very intentional about wanting to be a multi-ethnic, multi-economic, multi-generational church. And where we planted has been very intentional. Sarah Hooley — So even where we were for set up and tear down, and we were right in the heart of the city where it was the most ethnically diverse within Fort Wayne. So Fort Wayne is roughly about 66% white in the city as a whole, but in our neighborhood specifically, it’s more 40% African-American, 20% white, 20-ish percent Hispanic. And so it is a much more racially diverse area. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — And that is has been very intentional from the beginning. And so our location now, is it’s just been beautiful to see how God has really drawn people from every background. And, you know anyone who’s been a part of a multi-ethnic church knows that that that’s a messy process. It’s It is incredible to see, though, the the beauty and of what God can do when we are are not just attending a church together, but really in community with one another, and with people who come from radically different backgrounds um and and how that can really bring about a lot of healing in our stories and in our in our relationships. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — And so um we have grown since moving into the building, we were about 800 people um when we were set-up/teardown. And then once we moved into the building, it has just been um exponential growth. So we we have grown very quickly and just tried to keep up with all of it. Sarah Hooley — One of the things that I’ve i’ve just loved about City Church is it’s very intentional about um reaching those who don’t know Jesus. And so the that really comes from our our lead pastor, from Pastor Chris Freeman, his heart for the lost. So a lot of our growth has not been transfer growth. It’s not just people moving from church to church, but really those who’ve never set foot in a church, those who are, or who ah are really far from Jesus. It’s been a long time. Sarah Hooley — And the greatest evidence of that, that we’ve seen is we are on track to have 500 baptisms this year. Rich Birch — Wow. Oh my goodness. Sarah Hooley — That has just blown our minds. Rich Birch — That’s incredible. Sarah Hooley — Like we, We had to move up ah the frequency of our baptisms to every six weeks because we just could not keep up with all of the people who wanted to get baptized. Rich Birch — We’re not baptizing enough. That’s amazing. Wow. That’s incredible. Sarah Hooley — But we we’re about 430 right now, and I have over 70 people registered for this next upcoming one in December. Sarah Hooley — So it has just it has been a wild ride… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Sarah Hooley — …of um seeing God move in such phenomenal ways, and and just try to be faithful along the way. How do we steward these people well? Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — How do we continue to point them to Jesus? How do we encourage them to grow in their faith and to take those next steps of what it looks like to follow him? So it’s… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. There’s a ton we could we could unpack there, and maybe we’ll have you on in the future to talk. I um, you know, we’ve said it in the past on the podcast, every zip code in the country is more diverse today than it was 10 years ago, and 10 years from now, it will be more diverse, and our churches need to continue to progress towards reflecting the kingdom of God and being, as you’re saying, multi-ethnic. Rich Birch — And so there’s a ton we could we could learn from you on that. Maybe we’ll have you back in the future to talk about that. Cause I, that is definitely a thing I think we all can, can learn from, but I’d love to kind of key in on what you were talking there about. Hey, your church has a heart for, which I think lots of churches do have a heart for reaching people, who don’t know Jesus, but it’s like actually happening at your church, ah which is incredible. Rich Birch — So what were some early signs, you know, that you realize, or what are some of the signs that you realize, oh, this is actually happening. Like we’re actually reaching people. Baptism is one of them. Can you think of any other signs that were like, oh, we we’re reaching people who, who this is a brand new thing for them? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. So I mean, baptism was definitely a big sign of like, wow, these are, these are people who are, are new to following Jesus and taking that, that first step. And in our conversations with people who are preparing to be baptized, um, that, that was a part. It’s so funny, just, just this last week, uh, somebody posted on their Facebook page, uh, City Church choir is better than the club for real. Rich Birch — I love it. Love it. That’s great. Sarah Hooley — And they didn’t, like we don’t have, we didn’t have a choir. It’s our worship team, but like they don’t even know the words for what that worship team is. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yeah. They don’t know the words yet. Sarah Hooley — And, and the comments after that, like it, it truly was showing that we, we are drawing and attracting people who, who like, they’ve they’ve never really considered going to church. And then in our conversations with people, as they’ve realized, like, man, I do want this. I want to follow this Jesus. Like, this makes sense. This is incredible. But you just can’t assume anything. Rich Birch — No. Sarah Hooley — Like, they there’s no foundational understanding of what that looks like. There’s no, and and I think even just, there’s no understanding of even like what some sins are. Like, there’s just not like, oh, I didn’t even, not even realizing that like, that’s not a good idea to continue. So we’ve had, we have people who are like, yes, I want to follow Jesus. And then they’re still sleeping with their girlfriend. They’re still, you know, like it’s and it’s like… Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. 100%. Sarah Hooley — …oh, I didn’t, I didn’t even know… Rich Birch — The thing. Sarah Hooley — …that that was something that you shouldn’t do. Rich Birch — Yes. Sarah Hooley — And so really being able to, to come alongside and say, okay, man, we have to go back to the basics. We can’t assume anything. It’s gonna… Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — And it really has set the tone, even in just the way that Chris preaches and and all of our our pastors preach that we don’t make assumptions when we’re talking about scripture. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Sarah Hooley — So allowing um there not to be any barriers or or anything that would create a place where people would feel like, man, like everybody else knows what he’s talking about, but I don’t. And so like just the way that you set things up and explain things and introduce people. So you don’t don’t just assume that everybody knows who Joseph is from the Old Testament. Rich Birch — 100%. Right. Sarah Hooley — Like you have to be like, Hey, this is this guy. And so I think that that has led us to like, Chris does such a great job on Sunday mornings, but man, there’s, there’s so much more that we need to do as far as for people to truly learn what it means to follow Jesus when they don’t have much of a background. Like it’s going to take some more intentional discipleship that, um that we do. So that that has been really a process of of recognition that we even people who are coming on a Sunday… Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — …they’re excited about Jesus, there’s still some gaps there. Rich Birch — Sure. I’d love to talk. We’re going to get into the discipleship question, but I just want to pause just before we get there. And so um what do you think God’s using to help your church engaged? You know, in different circles of the Christian world, it’s called different things. Unchurched people, seekers, people who follow Jesus, people new to the faith, you know. So the teaching, I agree. That’s like a best practice around, um ah you know, taking time to explain. It takes three sentences to explain instead of just saying, well, you all know Joseph. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Rich Birch — He’s an example, which is just lazy preaching. You should take a few sentences, explain it. But what else is God using you think to, ah you know, to help your church reach so many unchurched people? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, you know, so we we really have, the the teaching is significant. Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — And that’s one of the things that I have just been blown away. So I grew up as a pastor’s kid, went to Bible college, went to seminary, like… Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — …biblical, like good, solid biblical teaching is such a huge priority for me. Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — And the thing that I think has been unique is that Chris has a way of communicating with those who have never been in church and and helping them to to see a clear picture of who Jesus is and challenging the deep disciples. Those who’ve been following Jesus their whole life. And yet, man… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Sarah Hooley — …the way that he brings light to scripture and, and even just like points out some, like, this is what it means to live this out. Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — That has made such a big difference. And then, so we really have had this, this drawing of, of those who have been followers… Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — …who then can invest in those who are new believers. But also we have, and it and it is beautiful, like a really dynamic worship time that is incredible. And one of the things that’s unique about it is it’s because we’re multi-ethnic, you can’t just go in one kind of genre of music, like it really is a blend. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Sarah Hooley — And so there’s something about it that um it it’s not all of anyone’s preferences, but you’re like, oh man, like I love this part of it. And then, well, this part’s new and different, but okay, I can I can get on board with it. And so I think those that combination, um but there’s there’s another factor and that’s, that really is in the culture that’s been set in how we are a welcoming church. Sarah Hooley — And so our connections director is somebody who came to faith in our church. So she she started following Jesus, like she had no church background whatsoever, started following Jesus, um started really growing in her discipleship. Her name is Victoria. And it it has been such a beautiful thing to see how she has has such a heart for Jesus and heart for others. And so she’s continued to invest in her team… Rich Birch — It’s great. Sarah Hooley — …in like, how do we make people feel welcome from the beginning? How do we not just say hello and let them walk by, but like really see people? Sarah Hooley — And she has really invested in her connection team on like, how is that an opportunity for discipleship? And so one of the things is you can you can join our greet team. You can join our parking lot team. You can join our coffee team and not be a believer. But the heart behind it is like, is you’re still investigating who Jesus is. Like we hope that you’re rubbing shoulders with someone who is following after him. Rich Birch — Yeah, make some friends, right? Yeah, absolutely. Sarah Hooley — And you have those conversations and that relationship has grown um through that. And you’re you get a picture of of who Jesus is. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — And so um like there there it’s just this multifaceted thing that has happened um that really is like when you come, you’re like man, I want to be a part of this. And so we have like, that’s the crazy thing. We have people who are not followers of Jesus inviting their friends, Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%. That’s great. Sarah Hooley — …like new church is better than the club for real. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s great. Sarah Hooley — Like they’re inviting their friends to come and… Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — …and be a part of this because there’s just something happening here. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Okay, let’s talk about the discipleship issue. So ah you didn’t say this, I said it, but one of the problems with the church in general is a lot of our discipleship systems assume a fairly high level of actually understanding of scripture. And our church shares a similar heartbeat. We’ll normally see, one of the things a new year guest come through in our church. We don’t ask them a lot, but one of the questions we do ask is for them to describe their kind of faith background before they came. And we’re consistently above 50%. It’s usually 60, 75% of people would describe themselves as something that we would label as unchurched. Rich Birch — And so I understand the discipleship problem. In lots of churches it just you just assume people know stuff and they grow closer to Jesus, but that’s not the case. So how are you helping move people towards being fully discipled followers of Jesus? What does that look like for City Church? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, so we we do, we have loved using Alpha for for those who really still are in that questioning phase and like they’re not even sure. And like they may not, they might may not feel comfortable coming to City Church, but they would come to somebody’s house and walk through Alpha. So that’s been really great for those who are kind of trying to still discover who Jesus is. Sarah Hooley — But for specific discipleship, because we were realizing, man, there’s just some some gaps here, Chris decided to launch a 15-week discipleship course for young men specifically. Rich Birch — Love it. Sarah Hooley — And we really saw, like we are we are a pretty young church. I mean, always have been, but that there was some some pretty serious gaps in and not only like, what does it mean to follow Jesus, but even what does it mean like what does it mean to be a godly man? And so wanting to have, to bring alongside some intentional mentors and people who can invest in these young men. Sarah Hooley — So um he invited people, but it was a very high accountability, high expectation sort of class. They meet at 6 a.m. on Thursday mornings. Rich Birch — Yeah. Wow. Sarah Hooley — That is not something everybody wants to sign up for. It was… Rich Birch — Yeah, no, not every guy wants to do that. I can say that. Sarah Hooley — No, it is it is a huge sacrifice. Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — And he said, this is going to require a lot of you. Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — And they actually have a crazy. Like if you are, if anyone is late, any single person is late, even five seconds, the whole group does pushups together… Rich Birch — Oh, no. Yeah. Okay, that’s cool. Sarah Hooley — …and not in a shaming way, but in a like, Hey, we’re inviting you to something great. Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — And part of, part of following Jesus is is it’s going to need incorporate discipline in your life. And so we have, we are called to have discipline. And so we’re going to really keep you accountable to this. Sarah Hooley — And so he does um he he talks through, like what does it mean to be a godly man? Talks about identity, talks about discipline, talks about integrity, purity, humility, servanthood. So he’ll do a ah teaching, and then they break off into groups with two leaders. So each group usually has about six six guys who are participants and two leaders who are older men in the church who have um that Chris has identified and recruited. And then they have a small group time. Sarah Hooley — So It has been so incredible to see how God is working, not only through his teaching, but really through that accountability… Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — …and like digging into what does this look like in our lives? And, and then those leaders are, are following up with them and encouraging them throughout the week. They, they do, they, they challenge, they come up with their own challenges. And as like, okay, we’re going to memorize this passage of scripture. And then they, then they like, all right, how did you, did you memorize this? Most of these guys have never memorized scripture in their lives. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Sarah Hooley — And so, even though some of those practices have been really incredible. And he he calls the class Act Like Men. And it really is so, and he makes it very clear, this is not about talking about what what is the difference between a man and a woman. This is talking about what’s the man and a boy. Sarah Hooley — Like we are calling you to be godly men and intentionally calling you up to to live out as godly men, not selfish boys. And so that, that has been beautiful. There was about, um, I think he had about 60 participants the first time he he ran it… Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — …with 25 leaders. And then this next, um, this heat currently they’re they’re walking through it right now and there’s 100 guys and 30 leaders. Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — It also requires, and they have to pay $100 and that goes right back into them. Like it’s for some resources that they are given. But again, it gives that like, hey, this is a high threshold. This isn’t just a casual thing. Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — They also cannot miss more than three sessions. If they do, they are asked to step away and if they can join again in a future time. Rich Birch — Take it again or whatever. Yeah. Sarah Hooley — So super high high high… Rich Birch — And is it the idea that it’s going to rotate like kind of a couple seasons a year or something like that? How what what’s the thinking on that? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like how often are you going to run it or what’s that? What’s that look like? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. So, so what we’ve done so far is, um, the men’s course is in the fall. And then, um, after last, last fall, the first time that, that Chris did it, there was such an out, like lot of the wives and the girlfriends and the people who were just connected with these guys, they were like, man, this has been so incredible. Like, what do you have for women? Like, when are we going to have our, our course? Sarah Hooley — And so that really sparked. And I was like, I’m too busy to do this right now, but like, I can’t not do it. So, um my kids, pastor, and I developed Be Bold Women’s, which was a complimentary course for women. And so the men is in the fall and the women starts in January. And we go through the spring and do kind of a similar, we follow a lot of the same topics, although we did choose some different ones, a couple of specific one… Rich Birch — Sure. Sarah Hooley — …that we felt really convicted that, like we do one of our lessons is on emotions and like, what is a healthy, godly way to approach and process, and how are emotions a part of our life? We also talk about community. So there’s just a couple of different topics that we walk through with the women. Sarah Hooley — We also incorporated women’s conference as a part of it that we then opened up to the rest of the church. So everyone in the church could come to the conference. We had our own people speaking at it, our own worship team leading worship. And we had about 300 women at this conference. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s great. Sarah Hooley — And it was just, it was a great start, like jumpstart to our time together in the course, but then also with our larger community. Rich Birch — There’s a lot there I’d love to ask questions about. So my impression of City Church just looking in, don’t know your church well, but follow online. And, you know, I don’t get the vibe from you guys that there’s like, I don’t know, like an overly machismo kind of like, you know, ah like in a negative way. Like, you know, you know you know what I mean? There’s some churches out there. You’re like, okay, they’re like a little too much into the man/woman thing. Sarah Hooley — Uh-huh. Rich Birch — And, and I don’t know how to say that nicely and not like step on people’s toes. I don’t get that vibe from you guys, but this, but you’ve, you’ve obviously taken, taken a gendered approach. Can you unpack that a little bit? Help me understand how is that it’s obviously been super helpful. So, but just kind of talk through that issue. Help me understand that. What’s that look like for you guys? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we really saw their there just was a need to have those intentional conversations um really of older men investing in younger men, and older women investing in younger women. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good. Sarah Hooley — And so um there are things that, there are conversations that you can have when it’s just men, that you add one woman into that mix and it’s gonna change some of those conversations. Rich Birch — Sure. Sarah Hooley — And some of the things that, especially when it comes to kind of the harder accountability parts of of those conversations, it’s going it’s just gonna look differently. If if somebody’s trying to impress somebody else, like that’s going to be an issue. Sarah Hooley — But I think, I think really, even though we’re not a overly like machismo, there’s, that’s still a part of our culture. Rich Birch — Sure. Sarah Hooley — And so I think Chris really wanted to be sure that he, he tackled that kind of toxic masculinity approach. Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — And, and like, that is not biblical masculinity. Rich Birch — No. Sarah Hooley — Like this, this idea of, you know, I’m the man. And we’re, but like, that’s not what, and and so really continuing to call them back to that, that being a true man is not the world’s version of, of power and money and having the beautiful wife or girlfriend. It really is about following Jesus’ example. He is the greatest example of what a godly man looks like. Rich Birch — Yeah. Sarah Hooley — So what does that look like? Rich Birch — Yeah. What’s that look like? Sarah Hooley — So that means humility and servanthood and sacrifice and laying down your life for others. And so how do we live that out? Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good. Sarah Hooley — And then for our women, it it it has been so powerful to be able to have those those deep conversations and um and challenging them to live this out. Sarah Hooley — And you know when you have people who are coming from, like they they don’t have um maybe those older women or men in their lives who have been investing in them and showing them what it looks like to follow Jesus or to live this out. It’s still brand new. And so there’s still, there’s some some space to have those questions be brought. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good. Sarah Hooley — And um like, why shouldn’t I return to this abusive boyfriend? Rich Birch — Right. Yep. Sarah Hooley — Why shouldn’t I like, so like being able to deal with some of those really hard conversations in a really healthy way that that comes back to scripture and comes back to like, this is what God wants for you. Rich Birch — Yeah. Sarah Hooley — And um and it’s and it’s hard, like following Jesus is hard. Like there is nothing easy about that… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Yeah. Sarah Hooley — But it’s so worth it. Rich Birch — Yeah. Sarah Hooley — And I think that being able to put that in front of people. But you know, those are two courses that we have. We have lots of small groups and mid-sized groups and groups that are that are mixed gender. And like there’s some beautiful things from that, too. These two courses specifically are just a little bit unique in in their approach. Rich Birch — That’s good. So as you’ve kind of watched this roll through as an XP, you know, go people go through these experiences, what what kind of changes have you seen in the broader church culture? Like, has there, you know, what have you seen that like, oh, hey, there’s something happening here that that seems to be having a positive impact or negative, I’m assuming there’s positive, that’s been kind of impacting the church culture. Talk to me about that. Sarah Hooley — Yeah, I I you really start to see um just that that growth, the idea that this is, you know, that that view of discipleship that’s a long obedience in the same direction. That is what we are are experiencing. You know, with so many people who are new believers, there are some great breakthrough moments and that is worth celebrating, but it is a long process. And so um I think really being able to come alongside and and watch watch those who are like, they were, they’re excited about Jesus. They’re pumped. They’re going lift their hands and worship. They’re going to be like, join the team. But to go beyond that to, okay, what does this actually look like in my life? And to see them begin to make changes in how they actually live that out. um That they’re not just, okay, this is my Sunday thing. And then I go and I do my weekly thing, um but truly changing. And that like that’s profound. It’s profound to see God work in such powerful ways. Sarah Hooley — And again, it’s not it’s never overnight, like there’s overnight breakthroughs, but it’s always a process. And I think that that like watching the the development of these courses is like there’s gonna be things you’re confronting in week one. And then you might still be confronting in week 10. You might still be confronting in week 15. But there’s there’s growth. And there’s um it doesn’t mean that they’ve been able to overcome everything, but you you can see that that change in them. And that draws people. Sarah Hooley — And so I think that we we’ve been able so to so clearly see even just the growth in the number of guys who who joined the course the first time and then the growth in the second second time through that people are hearing about it and being like, I want to be a part of this. Sarah Hooley — Like I saw what it did in my friend’s life. And like, that’s like, I know it’s 6am, but it’s worth it. I’m going to make the sacrifice. I’m going to be a part of it. And so I think that that that kind of invitation to discipleship where you see what the effect it’s having. And then that brings others in. And they’re like, I want what he has. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Sarah Hooley — Like, I, I’ve, I know who Jesus is, but I, Idon’t want it just to be a yeah, I know who Jesus is. I want to actually know Jesus. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. Friends that are listening in. I one of the one of the changes I for sure have seen in people who are arriving at our churches is, this is a problem when you’ve been at this long enough, like decades ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, people did kind of just stumble into church. Like that actually did happen, but that’s not happening today. Rich Birch — People, when they arrive, they’re they’re arriving with real questions and are looking for, they’re not looking for us, they’re not looking for our ideas, they want Jesus and they wanna know what that looks like. So I love this this idea of calling people to something That is a little more, you know, that’s, it’s not just the like, well, we’re going to to make it super easy. That’s not what it’s about. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Right. Yeah. Rich Birch — I think makes a lot of sense. Well, I want to pivot to it just a totally different conversation. As we were getting ready for this, one of the things that caught my attention, and you’re a humble leader, Jesus has formed your life. So like you didn’t lead off with like your attendance numbers and all that. You talked about growth, but you didn’t really go there. What what are you averaging right now? Attendance wise, where are you at? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we’re about 2,500 to 2,600 right now. Rich Birch — Okay. And how many full-time staff do you have as as a team? Sarah Hooley — Oh, we have seven full-time staff. Now, we do have some part-time roles that are high level… Rich Birch — Sure. Sarah Hooley — …but we are a skeleton staff. Rich Birch — Yes. Okay. So to put that in context, like, I, this is why want to hear more about this. How, how are you doing that? So to put make some context that people are listening in, um there’s a kind of a well kind of oiled benchmark out there that says churches should really shoot for 1 to 75 attendees and staff. And, you know, ah really great churches are maybe one to a hundred. Like that would be amazing if you could get that. I think the math on you guys is one to like 350 or something like that. Sarah Hooley — Yep. Rich Birch — Even if it’s like, okay, those those other equivalents, even if they end up being say you have another three full-time people in all those part-time. So you’re 10 full-time equivalents. That’s still like one to 250. So like, this is a significant lesson, friends. We need to learn from. Rich Birch — So it’s like, I really just want to say, talk. Like what systems and philosophies make that happen? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Rich Birch — How do you, you know, how are you able to make that happen? Talk us through that. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Well, we are trying to hire. So there are some roles that we definitely know that we need. Rich Birch — Yes. You got a long ways to go though. Even if you doubled your staff, you still would be like one to 125, which is still very high. You know, that’s great. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. And this has been one of the unique things about being a multi-ethnic church and a multi-ethnic church that’s reaching new believers. The the the financial support, it takes longer. Like financial discipleship, it’s a process. And and in a um you know within our community, there’s a significant like where we our church specifically is, there’s a significant number of people who are below the poverty line. And so that just means that where our budget is not going to be as large. Sarah Hooley — But so like we have always, and I think part of it is going from that church plant model to even having an established church. Like we’ve always had to be scrappy. Like you always have had to, like I started as a volunteer and I wanted to do a women’s conference. And then someone came and said, I heard that you’re leading the women’s ministry. And I was like, what? Like I didn’t, I just wanted to lead this women’s conference. Sarah Hooley — But just the the way that, um you know, we have continued to to philosophically want to equip the body to be the ministers. That it’s not just, oh, we can just hire somebody to do that. But for every staff person being so intentional about choosing staff members who can be equippers, who are not looking to just do ministry, but who are looking to equip others to do the ministry. And so those who can develop and be leaders of leaders. And that that really has been a part of our heart um in the beginning out of necessity. But also as we’ve continued to grow, um we’ve found there’s just been incredible fruit, because it calls the whole church body into being a part of what’s going on. Sarah Hooley — And so there is nothing more powerful and significant than saying like, yeah, I am I am a significant like participant, I am leading within this church in in a significant way that creates such buy-in. And so like that has really made a difference in in, I think, our church culture and and in just people so staying with us and saying like, man, there’s there’s there’s something happening here. I wanna be a part of it. And um being identified in like, given the opportunity to lead in those ways. And so um we are very, we are slow to hire because we’re kind of a unique, um we have a unique church culture and unique church body… Rich Birch — For sure. Sarah Hooley — …and we want our staff to reflect our church body and to to have buy-in. So I would, so the majority of our staff really are people who have come from the church body itself. So we we only have had very few outside hires um because we know that they understand who we are, they they understand kind of what we’ve been called to do. Sarah Hooley — And so that has been the most, like we have one full-time kids pastor… Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — …for 400 children. And she has an associate who’s also very high level and she’s incredible too. Um, but they have done such an incredible job of identifying, okay, within our kids ministry, within our volunteers, who are those people who, who can lead others and who have a heart for developing others. Sarah Hooley — And so, um, so they’ve broken down the different areas and they have leads over each of those individual areas where they’re doing some of the scheduling. So like identifying those administrative skills, like people who have people skills as well as administrative skills. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Sarah Hooley — But so the role of our of our kids pastor is to you know set the vision and invest in our leaders. And then they are then the ones who are are working through some of those logistics of what it looks like when it comes to staffing or when it comes to volunteers um and being fully like, oh, it’s a whole lot of children. We have a lot of kids. Rich Birch — Yes, that’s amazing. I’d I’d love to double click on some of that there. So this idea of leaders of leaders does not surprise me that, um you know, I it’s like one of these when I heard this, I’m like, I don’t even know anything about this. But I know that you the only way you get to that kind of ratio is you’ve empowered volunteers to actually lead things. Rich Birch — There’s a humbling thing you could do. Church leaders that are listening in do it. Do a giant org chart. Spend two hours and do a giant org chart on a whiteboard. Like literally draw out who is who leads who all the way down to every role in the church and then circle the people that are staff. And oftentimes what you find is there are no leaders of leaders that are volunteers. And they’re just that that’s a that’s a key distinction. How do we get and and how do we keep our staff being Ephesians 4 leaders, people who equip the saints to do the work? Sarah Hooley — Yes. Rich Birch — So give me some of the telltale signs that you that you see in volunteers that, hey, this person is could lead at a high level. And what does the equipping look like? How are you helping them step into that? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we really do view leadership as discipleship. And so, um, so even for our volunteers, we want to identify people, for them to step into a leadership role like that, that relationship with Jesus, that that’s strong connection to to him is is key. Sarah Hooley — So like that is first and for foremost across across all of our leadership teams. So even though I mentioned earlier that we have some of our serve teams that you can join the team and not be a believer, but for the people who are leading those people, we want them to be following Jesus. Sarah Hooley — And then just looking for those who also love people and have that heart for like, I want to have the conversations that, you know, something is is going on in someone’s life and they’re having a hard time, I’m going to follow up with them during the week. And so um so that love for Jesus, that love for people in some of these roles, it it is some administrative ability. Like, can you handle scheduling people? Like there’s there’s just like, are you able to complete some of those things, some of the doing aspects of ministry? Sarah Hooley — But even within our within our high level leader volunteer leaders, like they’re actually then finding other volunteers who are are doing some of those roles as well. So I think that that has been a process. So it’s looking at who who do we have in front of us? Like who are the people who are like bought in? They see the mission. They’re they’re passionate about what we’re doing. They care about what we’re doing. um And then inviting them into that next step of leadership. Sarah Hooley — A lot of times it’s we kind of give them a chance to kind of test it out first before just throwing them to the wolves so that they can kind of see like like shadowing somebody who already is currently doing something like that to get their feet wet, to kind of understand the the scope of the role. We don’t ever want to ask somebody to to step into a role that they aren’t, that they’re like, I don’t have the capacity for this. And so, but there’s there’s lots of development still along the way of like conversations of like, of of our actual staff members, checking in with them and helping them to like navigate problems and helping them to to think through like how to process, um you know, that they even are invited to bring feedback of like, hey, here are some things that we’re seeing, like what’s a way that we can then approach that together? So like really they they have a great voice into into how things are being run. Rich Birch — That’s good. One of the tensions that happens in a lot of churches is staff, our staff start to think like the kind of important people are people who have full-time staff that report to them. There’s like this insidious pull towards, I’m going to build my little kingdom. And like this is really common, like lots of churches struggle with that. It can be difficult. Rich Birch — How are you developing your, particularly the the culture with your staff team to ensure that they stay focused on leading volunteers rather than, you know, just hiring people? Like, let’s just hire somebody. How do we, how do how are you what are you doing there? Beyond the like, well, we can’t afford it. There’s got to be something else you’re doing to try to help them, you know, develop that. Sarah Hooley — Yeah, feeling missed out on the budget is really helpful. Rich Birch — Well, because, well, and yeah, but the but my pushback would be friendly pushback as as one leader to another is like that resource things are going to get sorted out. And it’s going to come to a time where you have resources to be able to do that. And it could be very tempting to say, let’s just go quadruple the size of our staff. So how are you ensuring that the culture isn’t going to do that? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. And so much of that is through through our coaching, through the way that we talk about this. This is something like we have these calibrating conversations all the time of of this is who we are and this is what we’re about. And this is what it looks like to lead here. That we um and and that And to be totally candid, like that has been a challenge where we had a staff person and as we grew, um could not make that transition of from doing to leading others and and delegating. Sarah Hooley — And so like that that is a challenge of, and and just thinking like, oh man, all we need to do is just add more staff and then I would be okay. And instead of really recognizing like, no, our our heart behind this is inviting the church to be the church. That that, Letting them know that that priesthood of all believers, like we are all called um to do ministry. Sarah Hooley — Ministry is not just for those who have a degree or those who have a title. Like we are called into ministry. And so keeping that before our our leaders and our staff so that they are keeping it before the the people that they’re calling into these volunteer leader roles. Sarah Hooley — And I will say like those who are the volunteers, like they, they’re excited. They’re excited about like, man, like you just invited me into this position. Like you’ve asked, you’ve seen, you saw something in me and asked me to, um to lead in this way and to serve in this way. And it’s, it’s a privilege to do that. But it is also like continuing to put that before us. Like we we are investing in our people. Sarah Hooley — Now, some of our future staff members might come from those who are volunteer leaders. And like and like that’s a beautiful thing because we’re like, man, I already know, I can see how you would operate in this role and how you would fit on our team and how you would keep how you you do get the culture and what what we’re trying to do. And I think that that’s that’s really a beautiful thing. Sarah Hooley — But it is it is a lot of conversation, a lot of coaching, and just a reminder of like, and I think part of it too is is realizing like, we can’t do everything. And so being very intentional to not be overly programmed. To be very clear about, we’re going do these things, like these very simple. Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — And so that’s where it’s like, it seems so simple. It seems so basic, but we’re going do these simple, basic things and do them faithfully. And um and then, yeah, see what God does. Rich Birch — Trust God for the results. Yeah, that’s fantastic. Yeah. And listen, you know it makes sense that you’ll end up hiring some people because it’s like that’s a little bit of a crazy ah you know ratio. And you know I think that’ll be that’ll be a challenge ahead to keep that focused as you add those people. And it’s not unreasonable to say to your team like, oh, yeah, like we probably should add a few people. Rich Birch — But to still champion at the end of the day, I think that’s like there’s a key piece there that you mentioned. It’s like this idea of championing the people who have been able to make that transition. And I’ve like, I got us like hey, ah it’s about developing leaders and I want to make that happen. And I know that might be messy and there’s other problems with that, but that’s you know that’s good. Rich Birch — It’s been a fantastic conversation. For people who are listening in today who might feel that kind of like, oh my goodness, we’re under-resourced, we’re you know are outnumbered, we don’t have enough people. Help us think through, kind of talk to us a little bit from an even mindset or how we lead point of view to kind of lead from abundance rather than from scarcity. Because a part of what I don’t hear you saying is like, oh, woe is me. Rich Birch — Like you’re like, no, this is just what God’s called us to in this season. We’re going to make it happen. And God’s doing a great thing. So try to encourage us, yeah help us think that through. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Well, I would, I mean, I would first of all say you’re not alone. So if you feel, if you do feel overwhelmed and outnumbered and under-resourced, like you’re not alone. And so I think that that is is helpful to be like, man, I’m not. And I think that’s where like even having podcasts like this, where you’re able to hear from others, we’re like, oh, man, OK, we’re in this together. We are all doing the mission that God has called us to. And there are challenges that come with that. And and that can be really discouraging and hard. And yet, like, I think when we can have that kind of. loaves and fishes mindset of like the disciples, they could not feed those people. Like they could not fit fill all the needs that were before them. But Jesus could. Sarah Hooley — And so if we can be faithful to say, okay, God, what do we have? What do we have? Like, what do we have in front of us? And how do we use that for your glory? And what what does that look like? What what are the things that we need to like have that laser focus on um so that we can then continue to see what you are going to do with with what we bring. Sarah Hooley — And and I think that there is that reliance on God to um to say like, you’re the one who does the work. Like this is not, and I think that helps us to like, it takes away that that pride and also that just overwhelming feeling feeling of sometimes failure when it’s, it’s not, when we realize that it’s not all on me… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good. Sarah Hooley — …like this is not like my responsibility is to be faithful and continuing to be faithful, to follow what God has called me to do. And that means, I mean, that means working hard. That means best practices. That means learning from others, but I am not responsible for the the end result. So how do I just be intentional and faithful with what God has given me? Sarah Hooley — And, and, and I think too, I think it’s really important to, to find others who are also in the journey with you. Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — That you can, that not that you just get together and complain, but that you can really come alongside each other and encourage one another. And that, That has been one of the most significant things that I have found in in stepping into this role. I got connected with a women executive pastor cohort of women all over the country who are leading in this in similar roles. Sarah Hooley — And being able to just ask questions of other church leaders, being able to say, will you pray for me? Like, I’m going through something really difficult right now. Will pray for me? That has encouraged me personally to be able to keep pressing on when it does feel overwhelming or it does feel like, man, the the task is too great for me. To be reminded and to have other pastors in like my corner and in my ear saying, remember who God is and remember what he’s called you to. Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — And so I think that that is just, it’s, if we can keep that in view and that in, in that mindset in view, that that God is so much greater than the most difficult person at your church who is louder than all of the others. And, um and God is greater than the the greatest problems that you are facing and the, the difficulties that you’re walking through. And, and so like, I think just looking for those, those things. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah, this has been such a helpful conversation. I really appreciate you being here today and investing in us. And it’s fantastic, super encouraging and lots of good nuggets in there. I got pages of notes here. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. We I mean we’re on um Instagram and Facebook. We’re forthecity.com is our church website. We are not on TikTok yet. We’re not that cool. I don’t know. Someday we’ll we’ll get there. Rich Birch — Nice. That’s fun. Sarah Hooley — But yeah, that’s that’s the primary way. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today. Sarah Hooley — Thank you so much.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe, a firm that partners with churches across the country to design and build facilities that amplify ministry impact. With more than 15 years of experience in church architecture, project management, and ministry leadership, Aaron and his team help churches navigate complex building challenges while staying focused on mission. Is your church facing growing pains—crowded lobbies, full parking lots, or overwhelmed kids' spaces—but unsure how to move forward? Aaron shares practical insights on how to approach facility planning strategically, align vision with budget, and avoid the costly mistakes that can slow down momentum. Overcoming the overwhelm. // When churches consider expansion or renovation, leaders often feel paralyzed by the process. Questions about cost, zoning, design, and disruption quickly pile up. Too often, churches jump straight to hiring an architect before defining their real needs. Instead, churches should first clarify what's working, what's broken, and what's next before anyone draws plans. Start with scope and budget. // The two guardrails of every successful project are scope (what you're building) and budget (what you can spend). Aaron warns that skipping this step often leads to beautiful drawings that churches can't afford. Risepointe begins with a Needs Analysis, an on-site deep dive into the church's DNA, culture, and challenges. The team listens to staff, studies how people use the building, and identifies bottlenecks—whether it's the children's hallway, lobby congestion, or limited parking. Only then do they define the right-size project and realistic cost range. The power of early engagement. // Most churches wait too long to start planning. Zoning approvals, fundraising, and construction all take longer than expected, especially in urban areas. Waiting too long forces rushed design work, unclear budgets, and lost ministry opportunities. You don't have to build everything at once. Start with a plan that captures the next few wins—like improving your lobby or kids' check-in—while preparing for long-term growth. Knowing when it's time. // Aaron says early warning signs include maxing out your primary service, overflowing kids' spaces, and parking lots at capacity. Many pastors misjudge space needs because they see the auditorium every Sunday but rarely experience the parking or early childhood chaos firsthand. Evaluating your entire Sunday experience—entry to exit—reveals where capacity problems really begin. Aligning buildings with ministry models. // Every church facility reflects a ministry philosophy—but those philosophies evolve. Where there used to be 40-year ministry cycles, now they are closer to 10 to 20. Churches shaped by the seeker-sensitive movement, for example, are now adapting to relational, community-driven models. Spaces that once emphasized rows and stages now need more environments for conversations, mentoring, and connection. A free resource for leaders. // To help churches begin the conversation, Aaron's team created a free guide called “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build.” The resource walks through key questions every church should answer before launching a building project—from clarifying vision and budget to preparing for change. You can download it and schedule a free consultation at risepointe.com/unseminary. To learn more about Risepointe's work helping churches align facilities with mission, visit risepointe.com/unseminary or follow Risepointe on Instagram for inspiration and project stories. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, across the country, we keep hearing about churches that are growing and we’re seeing swelling attendance and that’s good. Some of that is like a platinum problem though. It generates other issues that we have to think about. And so what what I did was pull on a friend of mine, Aaron Stanski, he’s the founder and CEO of Risepointe. He’s got 15 plus years of church design, leadership and project management and experience. Rich Birch — If you don’t know Risepointe, where have you been? You’re living under a rock. They’re church architects and designers. They have years of experience working with churches like yours, schools and nonprofits, and they offer a wide range wide variety of services, including architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, and so much more. Aaron is, I like Aaron not just because he actually has got incredible skills. His team’s got incredible skills, but he really actually wants to help churches like you. And so Aaron, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I’m glad to be here, Rich. Rich Birch — It’s going to be good. Give give people, you’ve been on a couple of times… Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and but give us again, for folks that haven’t heard, the Aaron Stanski, you know, a couple bullet points. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — What did I miss? What do you want to fill in the picture? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, ah you know the quick story is grew up in ministry. My dad was a pastor growing up, planted a we planted a church in Boston when I was a kid. Went to school for engineering, worked for Harley Davidson Motorcycles, did big projects, project management and stuff for them for a while. And then felt called to ministry. Aaron Stanski — So left Harley Davidson, was on staff with Cru for a couple years doing college ministry before I jumped on staff at a fast growing multi-site church here in Chicago. So loved that, loved being part of that ministry team. And then, of course, we went through a big building project. So got to roll up my sleeves on the on the church staff side of things and hire architects and engineers and AV consultants and really kind of combine my my engineering mind and my ministry heart. And so absolutely love that process. And so, yeah, I’ve been helping churches now for the last 15, 16 years. It’s been an absolute blast. Rich Birch — So good. Well, the the kind of person I want to have in mind today, and so friends, if if you’re listening in, if this sounds a little bit like you, you’re going to want to pay close attention. So I’m thinking about that church, you know, the leader that looks around, they maybe have got, maybe they got two services. Rich Birch — They’re looking around and they’re seeing, ooh, they feel like maybe their growth ah is starting to create some pinch points. Maybe it’s in kids. Maybe it’s in adults. Maybe it’s their lobby. It’s they look around and they’re like, man, I just I feel like our facility might be holding us back a little bit. um And because I do bump into this in churches all the time. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — And there’s like, there can be like a certain amount of anxiety and fear around, gosh, when do I, what do I do? So when you talk to pastors, what do you know notice as one of the kind of most common point of confusion when it comes to starting or pulling the trigger, moving on with a building project, expansion project, try to improve things. Where are we getting this wrong? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think ah like one, the whole process itself can just be completely overwhelming. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — Like immediately you’re confronted with, ah oh my goodness, like what’s the right solution? What is the, ah what is the town or the, you know, the jurisdiction going to allow us to do? What is this all going to cost? Where are we going to do church in the meantime if we’re having to fix this building or add on to it? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — I mean, immediately all of these questions start to kind of well up and it can become ah really overwhelming for a lot of churches. Rich Birch — So good. So when when we step back, is there any one of those that you think in particular is like a piece of the puzzle that is the most kind of mysterious or is the most um confusing as as you that you bump into regularly with leaders? Aaron Stanski — I mean, I think the most confusing is probably like, what’s the right solution? Rich Birch — Okay. Yep. Aaron Stanski — A lot of times it’s a combination of like, you know, we feel like we’re out of space, so we have to add on. But if we do that, we’re going to have to modify what we already have. And what we have is old, or there’s some maintenance on it that we haven’t gotten around to. And like, what can we do in this space? And so actually the the right solution is is probably one of the most difficult things to kind of imagine for a lot of pastors. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And, you know, then right behind that is like. What’s it going to cost? Right. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — I mean, you know, for the last four or five years, we’ve seen a lot of inflation. We’ve seen a lot of different things happening, like with pricing and stuff. And so what used to be a pretty easy calculation for us as churches now, it feels like it’s a lot foggier as far as like what what things are just going to cost. Rich Birch — Yeah. So I’ve heard church leaders at this this juncture, they start thinking like, okay, like we got to get an architect. Get me the architect, the the person that designed this building 25 years ago. Where are they? Are they still in business? And, you know, we start going down that road. I’m not even really sure what an architect does. Like, I obviously, you you draw things. But, like, help us understand what what is the piece of the puzzle that, like, an architect brings to the table. Aaron Stanski — Right. Rich Birch — And I know that’s, like, a subset of what you guys do. Pretend that I’m, like, super dumb because it’s probably not actually worry about pretending too much there. Explain what that is. What is that service? And is that actually what we need at this juncture? Is that the first question? Like, get the architect. Come in here. Explain that whole thing. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, well, I think we have to be careful. Sometimes hiring an architect is like picking up a hammer, right? And for a lot of architects who were, you know, traditionally trained and might have like one sort of, you know, viewpoint of the world. Like their job is to come in and draw something new um that’s going to sort of solve your problem. The challenge with that is a lot of times that architect is just looking for ah one type of solution, ah which is build you something new, add something on. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And they’re looking at it very narrowly through the lens of what the solution is going to be. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Aaron Stanski — And a lot of times they’re not, you know, kind of able to kind of step back and take a look at strategically and say, okay, before we start drawing plans and blueprints and some of those sorts of things, let’s really talk about like what’s going really well at your church and how are we going to amplify what you’re already doing well? How are we going to add some, you know, some pieces around it? And then of course, how are we going to fix some of the big, you know, some of the bigger problems? Aaron Stanski — So an architect technically, right? I mean, it’s a licensed professional. Their job is to lead your organization through the process from the very beginning all the way through the stages of design. Their job is to make sure that the solution is aligned with your with who you are as an organization and your budget. And they’re supposed to help all the way through construction, making sure that it gets built the way that it was designed and and that it gets you know all the questions get answered and that it’s ultimately safe. Aaron Stanski — So that’s what an architect does. I think the I think the thing that we miss a little bit on the front end is in order for the architect to start, we really need kind of need to know what the scope of the work is and the budget first. Rich Birch — So good. Okay. Okay. Good. Aaron Stanski — If we don’t put those two guardrails on the left and the right-hand side, we’re really missing out. The left-hand side should be scope. The right-hand side should be budget. And we should nail those down before we get going into designing. Rich Birch — Okay. I want to unpack that because I know, I actually texted you recently. Friends, getting you behind the scenes a little bit. I had a friend of mine, they had done exactly what we talked about here. They were like, we went and hired an architect to help with this thing. And they came back with a ginormous number um that was like, I would say a factor, you know, three or four times what I thought. And what do I know? I don’t know anything. Rich Birch — And I actually think it was these guardrails where they went off off on it. They didn’t start with scope and budget. They started with, hey, here’s a problem, architect – solve it for us. And they came back with this, you know, very incredible initial drawing and all that. Rich Birch — Talk us through how do we nail down scope and budget from the beginning? Talk us through what does that look like? Aaron Stanski — Yeah, so I would say, ah you know, you want to find a ministry partner who’s going to come in and really kind of help ah flesh out some of those pieces, really understand what’s working well, what’s not working well, what’s missing, where do we have to clarify what it is that we’re doing in order so to sort of establish that. And and there’s ah there’s a lot of great partners out there who can help you do that. But you’re really looking for someone in the building/design/construction space who has experience who has a lot of experience, honestly, with churches and understands what it means to, you know, serve people who’ve been part of your church for 20, 30 years and keep them on mission and disciple them up, as well as welcoming people who are walking into your doors for the very first time. Aaron Stanski — So at Risepointe, we walk through a process called The Needs Analysis, where we get on site with, you know, a church for an entire day and understand their DNA and really understand what’s working and not working and stuff. And we start with that so that we can sketch out some ideas and some concepts and stuff around what is the what is the scope of work that’s going to solve the problem or fix the lid or add the seats that we need? And what’s the budget that we feel like God’s calling us to spend as a church in order to go do that? And we want to start with that before we jump into full architecture. Rich Birch — Okay, so sidebar question. Is it possible for someone to help us at this early kind of scoping phase without doing some sort of on-site? Like, can I just call an architect and say, hey, here’s the problem. I need to add a thousand seats. How much is that going to cost? And then they go away and come back with a number. Or, or you know, are is there, yeah, can they do that? Talk us through that. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can. I mean, you can call up Risepointe and I’ll get on the phone with you. The, and, but there’s going to be a range, right? Rich Birch — Okay. Aaron Stanski — And I can say like, Hey, here’s the last 10 churches that we’ve done a thousand seat auditoriums at… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …and here’s kind of the range and stuff. The problem with shortcutting to that is you miss a lot of things, right? Each jurisdiction is different, like how the civil engineering works, the parking requirements and stuff. Rich Birch — Right. Good. Yep. Aaron Stanski — And those really affect the budget. And so we want to understand those first. And the second thing is, I mean, every church that we work with is and incredibly unique in the people that they’re reaching, and the values that those people have and whether they’re de-churched or unchurched and and who they’re running into and and stuff. And so really kind of understanding that context is so important um before we jump into, you know, sort of solution. Aaron Stanski — But yeah, I mean, since we work with churches all over the country, I mean, if someone called me up, I could probably, I could probably put my thumb in the air and give them a ah swag on what that might cost. Rich Birch — Yeah. And I would, you know, it’s funny because I’ve, I’ve recommended people have asked me those kinds of questions and I always actually say exactly what, you know, where you led, which is like, you should call my friend Aaron and, but, but what you should do, get on the, do the like free call or whatever, get on the book a time. But I said, you really should do this Needs Analysis thing. Cause the project that you’re facing is always much larger than you think. Rich Birch — And I would rather people take time, invest the resources upfront and time, frankly, to slow down and say let’s actually understand the question we’re asking before we jump to answers, right? Like what because because we could get this thing wrong and actually that gets to this whole idea of how early is too early. My experience has been people wait too long before they engage with someone like you. They they get into like their third service, fourth service. They’re like, oh gosh, people aren’t going to the fifth service. Maybe we have to figure out how to get more space. Talk us about, you know, what mistakes do we make when we wait too long without engaging with someone like you? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I’d say, you know, the thing to keep in mind is that you’re, if you’re the average church that reaches out to Risepointe, you’re somewhere between two and a half and three years away from having any sort of new space. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Okay. Aaron Stanski — And that’s on the short end. We have churches who are bringing new space online five years after they’ve reached out to us because they’re, they live in downtown areas… Rich Birch — Wow. Aaron Stanski — …very challenging jurisdictions and some things like that. Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — And so when we’re thinking about when is the right time, I think, yeah, earlier is definitely better. But we have to be careful ah that we’re strategically spending dollars even on the front end, you know, so that we, you know, we’re getting out of it what we need. Aaron Stanski — As leaders, what questions are we asking that we need answers for in order to determine is it the right time to move forward with a building project? Is it a right time to launch a campus or go multi-site or some things like that? Aaron Stanski — If you wait too long, typically what happens is either we’re we’re rushing through the design process to kind of hit the capital campaign stuff and there’s budget misalignment. All of a sudden we thought it might be this, but now this is the actual budget for what it’s going to work. Aaron Stanski — And I think when that happens, there starts to be some vision confusion. You know, we’re looking at solutions that we kind of rushed through and it doesn’t feel like we really thought all of those things through. And so I think that’s another one. Aaron Stanski — And then I just think, you know, there’s there’s some missed ministry opportunities if if we kind of wait too long. I think a lot of times when we’re planning out, here’s the multiple phases of how we develop this campus and expand it. You know, we miss out on opportunities to go get some smaller things done sooner… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …capture momentum, you you know, fix the welcome center, like invest some dollars in something we know we’re not going to tear down, make it better for guests in a couple months. And we miss out on those things if we don’t have a bigger, more strategic plan. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah, kind of a step back and say, hey, how does this fit into where everything that’s going on? Rich Birch — What would be kind of double clicking on that? What would be some indicators internally that would say, hey, um you know, these things are happening. I should really reach out to Risepointe. What would be some of the things that you would see as telltale signs that it’s now a time to to kind of take this step? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think if we’re, you know, if we’re really pushing towards our, those max numbers at our primary service, I think that’s a, that’s definitely an early indicator. Aaron Stanski — A lot of churches just kind of reach out and say, Hey, okay, here’s, here’s kind of where we’re at. Here’s where the math is at. Like, can you look at this like from a, like how much kids area should we have? How much lobby space should we have? And we can run some quick math for them and say, Hey, you don’t have any other lids. You’re looking good. You, you probably have a few more years of growth in you. Aaron Stanski — So that would be one. You know i think if ah you know we’re starting to talk about ah adding a third or fourth service, it’s probably a little bit too late, but we should probably get on it sooner than later. Aaron Stanski — And then, you know, one of the, one of the other things too, is just kind of paying attention. It’s easy for us on Sundays to stand on the stage and look out and get a pretty good sense of, are there enough seats? Is there space for me here? And like, we look out and we see some empty chairs. Aaron Stanski — Keep in mind that when you’re coming in from the back of the auditorium, it’s a lot harder to see some of those empty chairs. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so what is the percentage? But the other thing is the things that we’re not seeing when more when we’re on stage on Sunday is we’re not seeing the parking lot. We’re not seeing the early childhood wing that’s basically a it’s a it’s a disaster back there. There’s kids running around like crazy. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Aaron Stanski — And so even if we’re ah even if we have enough seats, like or we’re not at the 80 or 90 percent capacity to our primary service. We need to be looking out at some of these other areas and making sure that there’s not a lid somewhere else. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. In fact, I literally just last weekend said that to a church. I was, you know, I was doing a weekend visit where I was on site and all that stuff. And, and it, to me, it felt like the building, the parking, and the kids, and the main auditorium, they, or the adult auditorium, they just didn’t match. It was like they, the three were out of alignment. And I think they had enough kids, but you know, I don’t know. There was, it’s interesting how that can happen. And you know the lead pastor typically is seeing um only the adult room and not you know not anything else. Rich Birch — Early on, you know there’s my experience has been and projects that have been a part of that I would rather spend money as personally as a leader. I’m not saying, friends, if you’re listening in, that you need to necessarily do this. Rich Birch — I would rather spend money on the front end with a designer like you. Because because the joke I’ve made is it’s a lot cheaper to move walls on drawings than it is in in the real world. And I’ve that comes from pain of building stuff… Aaron Stanski — It’s true. Yeah. Rich Birch — …of building stuff, and then being literally I opened up a new facility and then stood there with a kids ministry person. And the kids ministry person was like, oh, I didn’t think it was going to look like this. I was like, oh my goodness, what what are you talking about? Aaron Stanski — Shoot. Rich Birch — Like, we just opened this new facility. Talk us through, like, what’s an investment on the front end to reach out to someone like you? Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — How do you help churches see that hiring someone like you can actually save us resources in the long haul? Talk us through that. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, starting out at the beginning and getting really clear about where we’re going and how we’re going to get there, it really helps us, you know, cart and like make sure we don’t overbuild or underbuild. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — It makes sure that like compared to all the other churches that we’re working with all over the country, that we’re in alignment with where the square footage is at and it’s aligned with how you do ministry locally, how you use these spaces seven days a week. Aaron Stanski — And so it’s it’s really making sure that we’re not overbuilding or underbuilding anywhere because that’s ah you know that’s a huge that’s a huge miss if we do that. And that’s probably one of the biggest cost savings. Aaron Stanski — The other thing is you know during you know during sort of that season of vision and master planning and when we’re talking to our folks about what God’s doing at the church and we’re telling stories of life change, like we’re really kind of laying out a vision for what God is calling us to do as a ministry. And people just naturally have questions around like, like, how is this going to help? And and how is this actually going to help us reach my lost coworker, my lost neighbor? Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And, and so I think, you know, spending the time to do that, really translating sort of the mission and vision into physical space needs and producing some of those renderings that accompany that story. I mean, that’s just a really critical part. Rich Birch — Okay, so let’s double click on that. That’s that I feel like I have been caught in this situation where I get I get like, it’s the hammer and nail thing you you say. Like, I’m I’m pretty sure I know what the solution is. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like, let’s go do this. And I like that what you’re saying is like, hey, we need to take a step back and like actually think through how does this fit in our vision and how’s that all? How do you actually do that? How do you help a leadership team discern what the problem is that they’re really needing to solve, or should be solving, rather than just let’s build a bigger box. Or, I know! We just need 25 new parking spots. Like how do we not jump too quickly to that? What’s that look like? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, it looks like, you know, spending time. Rich Birch — Good. And and, really getting to know them and what makes them unique. Like we have a fantastic set of tools that we use at Risepointe to like really talk about, you know, let’s talk about, uh, outside the walls, right? Like who, who are we called to reach? And, and what does it mean to do ministry in this place that God has uniquely put your church in the geographic area? Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And let’s talk about the tension between this side of town and that side of town. And let’s, you know, let’s wrestle with, you know, some of those issues. And then let’s, and then let’s talk about like, like, man, who are we as a church on our best day? And what does it feel like when we’re like living up to our full potential? Aaron Stanski — And then we even get into some of the things around like, man, what are what are some of the strategic drivers? What’s driving more people hearing about Jesus? What’s working really well? What do you see as opportunities or things that where if you had the right leader or finances that you’d be able to you know, accomplish even more of your mission. Aaron Stanski — And so by starting there and then starting to work down towards, okay, where is your facility aligned with that with that exercise and where is it misaligned? Okay, let’s unpack that a little bit. And then without getting into ah the solution yet, I want to meet like individually with each you know ministry leader… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …talk about what how check-in works and all of those things. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so it’s really sort of this almost like a 360 review of what’s happening between the mission and vision God’s given us, and how are our facilities helping or hindering that mission and vision. Aaron Stanski — And then it just comes down to budget. And so, okay, here are the possible solutions. Here’s what roughly what some of those things are going to cost. And then it’s going to the, going to God in prayer and saying, okay, what are you calling us to do? What are based on these options and trying to figure it out? Rich Birch — I want I want to come back to the budget question in a second. But I’ve I think I probably have stole this off you. I have said to multiple church leaders that like our buildings were built, there was like a philosophical underpinning of the the buildings that we were built with. There was a ministry model that they were built on. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Yeah. Rich Birch — And then there’s been a lag between when we made those decisions, we’ve we built them. Now we’ve been using them for X number of years. And our ministry model may no longer be the same as the building, or probably isn’t actually the same as when the building was built. Rich Birch — What’s your sense on how long that lag time is kind of between the, they they you know, we built something. If we built something more than 10 years ago, you know we probably want to readdress or look at our facilities afresh and say does this actually meet the needs of… Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — Because I feel like so many of us are in like the the cramped shoes that just don’t quite fit they work but they don’t quite fitWhat do you think that lag time is? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, the lag time is getting shorter and shorter. Rich Birch — Okay. Aaron Stanski — It used to be, you know, it probably used to be 40 or 50 years… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …you know, without major ministry model shifts and stuff. Obviously, you know, Willow Creek, North Point, you know, coming onto of the scene in the in the late 90s and stuff really shifted. We have churches all the way up into the 2000s, even into the 2010s that sort of copied the model of the Willow Creeks and some of those things. And I think we’re seeing, you know, we’re seeing the model shifting a lot faster now. Rich Birch — Interesting. Aaron Stanski — I’d say, you know, you know, we’re probably in a faster 10 to 20 year cycle, something like that. But I think we’re coming out of the, you know, the, you know, that model of Willow Creek and North Point and stuff. And we’re, we’re moving into a new season. And it’s kind of exciting for us. Rich Birch — Yeah. Aaron Stanski — I mean, we get to, we get to sit on the front edge of all of that. Churches like in fantastic places, being creative, reaching, you know, people for Christ. And so it’s just interesting to kind of observe some of those things and, um and observe what’s working really well and, and where it we can improve, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah. You’re baiting me. What are those things that you’ve seen that have shifted? There’s got to be, or is that the magic? We got to call Aaron to find out. Aaron Stanski — No, you don’t have to call Aaron. No, I mean, the thing, I mean, like, you know, I heard someone share this with me recently, right? I mean, every Netflix account homepage is different for every person, all billion subscribers or whatever that they have. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — They’re individually tailored to to those individuals. And I know that because when I had a bunch of seventh grade boys spend the night at my house, like my algorithm got so messed up on my Netflix account last weekend. Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Aaron Stanski — But I think there is a shift away from you know some of the bigger, more institutional types of look and feel and trying to get down to, okay, how are we engaging one-on-one with people who are walking in and where they’re at. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — How do we, you know, instead of preach a sermon at them, how do we hear their story? And what does it look like for us to hear their story in in various places, whether that’s a welcome center, whether that’s, ah you know, side by side in the pew, whether that’s in sort of a first steps class. And so there’s a shift on that side of things… Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s interesting. Aaron Stanski — …just like as we look at the next generation and how we engage and reach the next generation. Rich Birch — Okay, I want to loop back on the money question. So for folks that don’t know, a part of what I do is actually help churches with that. And don’t really talk about it publicly, but I do. And, you know, there is this interesting tension that churches often come to this. It’s like we think we’re different than our ourselves. Rich Birch — And that if I was going to go build a new house, I would have to start with, well, how much income do I have? And like, what can the, you know, what can the, you know, what what would the what would the bank give me from a mortgage point of view? Like I start with reality around my finances. But so many churches start with, let’s build this giant thing. And it’s totally disconnected from the from what we could actually afford to either raise or carry long-term. Rich Birch — How much variance can a church bring to a design? Like if they upfront are defining, Hey, like we can afford probably 5 million. I know I’ve got $35 million dollars in dreams or maybe not. That’s, that’s too crazy. I got $15 million dollars in dreams. Is it possible for me to, to actually get that into a tighter box? Help us understand how do we do that? How do we on the front end be realistic with our finances as we’re doing this design thing? Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, I think we have to with open hands, we have to hold out the, you know, the dreams, the vision, you know, the stuff that God’s given us. And we have to prayerfully sort of go through that exercise and say, okay, ah but how much risk do I want to introduce into the organization, like via debt? Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — What what is God actually calling us to do with those things? And we have to be creative in how we and and how we get across the finish line. I think when I when I hear sometimes a senior pastor sharing with me his $35 million dollars vision, Rich… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — …what I immediately try to do is say, okay, talk to me about what it is about that $35 million dollar thing that’s resonating with you. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so even though he’s describing something that’s $35 million, dollars and as an architect, I might get really excited about drawing $35 million dollars worth of stuff. Rich Birch — Yes. Aaron Stanski — If he actually can’t afford it and can’t raise it, he’s actually not going to go do it. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — So I need to go back to that vision and say, okay, what are the pieces in there that are from God, that are ah that are aligned with the mission that his church has and stuff? And I need to contextualize that. And then as an architect, as a designer, I have to turn around and say, okay, with my guardrails in place of budget and scope, how do I express those things… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …in the $5 million dollars that God has entrusted our church with? And so there’s going to be a lot of difficult decisions along the way. We’re going to have to prioritize some things. And some other things might have to go on the back burner. But that’s the process that we want to help churches walk through um to to get them to that point where they’re walking into a space for the first time and going, oh, man, this feels like us. Like this is this is who God wants us to be in our community. And I’m so excited about doing ministry in this new space. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So it’s it’s not, from what I hear you saying, it’s not unreasonable on the front end to be like, hey, we should actually bring, like, be clear on this is this is what we think we can actually raise. This is that what we think we can carry. We think we could do a project of X, whatever. And that needs to be early on in the discussion rather than we’re disappointed on the back end. Oh my goodness, we got this this big number and we don’t know what to do with it. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I like to be doing it simultaneously. I like to be doing the Needs Analysis and working through, okay, here’s the eight different project options. You can relocate and spend $35 million. You can add on. You can you can do this. All right, here’s your here’s your four options, $10, $8, $6, $4 million dollars And at the same time, I like to encourage churches to like, okay, go talk to someone like yourself… Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — …and say, okay, what do we think we could raise if we did a capital campaign? How much debt do we currently have? How do our elders feel about us you know borrowing some money if it if it makes a bigger impact on the project? Because if we can bring those two things together and pray through it and get clarity from God about what he’s asking us to do, then I can go ah help draw buildings and blueprints and things like that. Rich, you can help them raise some money and they and we can you know we can go through that process. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, it’s great. And you know, my experience has been every one of those steps, friends, is, it’s a lot of work. It’s, it’s like a, it’s a faith ah stretching experience. There are late, late nights staring at the ceiling, but every one of those I’ve been a part of, literally 100% of them have been transformative in the life of the church. You know, when they, when you look back, you’re like, wow, that was an inflection point. I am so glad we went through that. It wasn’t this like we did that and I was like, man, that wasn’t such so good in the end. It was really was amazing. Rich Birch — Well, there’s a resource that you’ve provided. It’s called 10 Things to Get ah Right Before You Build. Talk to us about this resource and then and then where can where can we want to make sure people get this. Tell us tell us a little bit about this. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, like with, you know, church, hundreds of churches calling us, you know, every year, asking a lot of the questions that we’ve talked about today. Like we tried to distill down what are the most common things the churches are like, okay, pause real quick. I got to go do something real fast before we decide that we can sort of move forward. And so some of these things are what happens like while you’re talking to Risepointe and some of these things might be before. But I think it’s just kind of a helpful reminder and ah a thoughtful list to kind of work through. Aaron Stanski — And so if that’s helpful at all, or if that’s interesting at all, um you can just go to risepointe.com/unseminary. And a little ah little landing page will pop up there. There’s two things you can do on that page. The first one is to just give us your name and your email there and sign up and get that 10 things to download. Aaron Stanski — I also threw another button on there this morning in case you’re like, hey, that sounds great, but I’ve got I’ve got a specific question I have about our building. Or like, I actually really need to talk to you guys about what our options are. And so I put another button down there at the bottom. If you want to schedule a call with myself or one of our architects, we’d love to hop on the phone with you. No charge for that. 30 minutes. Just kind of talk through where you’re at, what some of your questions are and see if we might be able to help. So ah once again, that’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And you can get all that, all that stuff right there. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And friends, I’ve had multiple friends in ministry who have engaged with with Aaron across the entire spectrum. The like free 30 minute thing all the way up through, you know, the kind of full deal, help get a whole project out the door. And and just so happy with the work that Risepointe does. And just has been transformative for their churches. So you get a hearty endorsement from me. You really should do that. Again, that’s just risepointe.com/unseminary. You can pick this up. It is a helpful little PDF, and the schedule call is a great thing. Rich Birch — Well, Aaron, I appreciate you being here today. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you guys or if they’re anywhere else online, obviously risepointe.com. We want to send them to anywhere else online. We want to we want to send them to. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can always, uh, you know, follow us on the Insta or whatever you want to do there. Rich Birch — Nice. Love it. Aaron Stanski — If you’re into like, you know, cool pictures of like steel being erected, ah or, uh, kids ministry stuff or pictures and stuff, we’re trying to share a little bit more info there. But yeah, I mean, or just our website and, uh, yeah, stay connected. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Thanks for being here and have a good day, buddy. Aaron Stanski — All right, you too. Bye.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Tensley Almand, President and CEO of Atlanta Mission, the largest and longest-running provider of services for people experiencing homelessness in the Atlanta metro area. Founded in 1938 as a soup kitchen during the Great Depression, Atlanta Mission now operates four campuses, serving over 800 men, women, and children nightly through programs that provide housing, recovery support, and Christ-centered transformation. How do you lead through complexity while staying true to your calling? Tensley shares leadership lessons from his transition from church ministry to leading a $20 million nonprofit—insights that apply to every pastor or church leader navigating growth, complexity, or change. Moving beyond shelter to transformation. // While many think of Atlanta Mission as only an emergency shelter, over 60% of its beds are dedicated to long-term transformational programs that address root causes of homelessness. The yearlong program includes counseling, trauma recovery, life skills, and vocational training. Clients complete a four-week “Next Steps” program focused on relational, emotional, and workplace health. The results are remarkable: 70% of graduates maintain stable housing and employment a year later. Learning to lead by listening. // When Tensley stepped into his CEO role, he faced the challenge of succeeding a leader who had guided the organization from crisis to stability. Rather than arriving as the expert, Tensley began as what he calls the “Chief Question Officer.” He met with every employee to ask four key questions: What's right? What's wrong? What's missing? What's confusing? The responses revealed a clear need for strategic focus. Building clarity and focus. // Using that input, Tensley led a yearlong process to create a strategic roadmap—a seven-year plan that defines the organization's mission, values, and measurable outcomes. When there's clarity in an organization, saying ‘no' becomes easy and saying ‘yes' becomes difficult. The new strategy gave Atlanta Mission a unified framework for decision-making, with every initiative measured against the same mission. Measuring what matters. // Data fuels care. In order to better track client progress, the team at Atlanta Mission built dashboards, measuring not only how many people they serve but how lives are changing. When graduation rates dipped from 70% to 45%, they discovered the cause wasn't program failure but economic change. That same approach can transform church leadership. Churches measure nickels and noses, but what if we measured progression—how many first-time guests become group members, or how many volunteers grow into leaders? Partnership through presence. // Atlanta Mission thrives through partnerships with churches across the city. Tensley explains that relational poverty—people lacking healthy connections—is as debilitating as material poverty. Rather than only focusing on “do for” service projects, he encourages churches to create “be with” opportunities: hosting birthday parties, sharing meals, or building relationships with families at Atlanta Mission. Encouragement for leaders. // Reflecting on his own journey, Tensley reminds church leaders who feel stretched or uncertain that often you’ll overestimate what you can accomplish in 90 days, but underestimate what you can do in a year or two. Take time to listen, build unity, and stay faithful in the process. Over time, that faithfulness becomes transformation—both in the people you lead and in yourself. To learn more about Atlanta Mission, visit atlantamission.org or email to connect or schedule a visit. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a real honored to have an incredible guest on today’s episode. We’ve got Tensley Almand with us. He is the president and CEO of Atlanta Mission. Rich Birch — Now, if you don’t know Atlanta Mission, I’m not sure where you’ve been. You really should know. This organization was founded in 1938 as a soup kitchen to feed men who were displaced by the Great Depression. And they just keep chugging along. They do incredible work. They now serve Metro Atlanta’s largest homeless population and bring hope in the face of homelessness, poverty, and addiction. Rich Birch — Prior to serving at Atlanta Mission, he was in vocational ministry for 20 plus years, the last 12 of those, as we were just saying in the pre-call. He said, felt like he had the the best job in the world, was a lead pastor at Decatur City Church, one of the eight Atlanta City, Atlanta area campuses of North Point Ministries. Tensley, welcome. So glad you’re here. Tensley Almand — Man, so good to be here. Thanks so much for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. Rich Birch — No, this is going to be good. I’m excited. Why don’t you kind of fill in the picture? Tell us a little bit more of your background and tell us a bit more about Atlanta Mission, that kind of thing. Just help set the table. Tensley Almand — Yeah, so I’m a native Atlantan. I grew up here, born and raised just north of the city. Yeah. Only child. Parents still live north of the city in the same town that I grew up in. Rich Birch — Nice. Tensley Almand — My wife and I, we have four kids. We have been married now, just celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary… Rich Birch — Congratulations. That’s great. Tensley Almand — …which makes me feel old, but it’s it’s it’s all good. So four kids, three boys, little girl, they’re all just amazing, doing great things and in their worlds. We live over in city of Decatur. So ah for those that don’t know, just kind of just right outside of downtown Atlanta. So we feel like we’re living in the heart of the city. Rich Birch — Cool. Tensley Almand — Like you said, I spent 20 plus years on the church side of ministry, which you had told younger me that that was going to be my future, I probably would have laughed at you. Grew up in a family that church just frankly, wasn’t that important to us. My mom gets mad if I say I didn’t grow up in a Christian home, um, which, you know, looking back, I think is really true. I just grew up in a home that we didn’t feel like the church was for us. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so, um, after, you know, meeting Jesus in college, giving my life to him, which is a whole nother really cool story, started down the path towards ministry. And eventually several years into that kind of looked up and thought, I don’t know what I’m doing. Like I’m working at these churches that I don’t even want to attend. Tensley Almand — Like remember this very pivotal meeting in my life where our pastor asked us, he’s like, if I didn’t pay you to go to church here, is this the church you would attend? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — And every one of us said no. Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Oh, my goodness. Tensley Almand — And they were all okay with it. Rich Birch — Oh, no. Tensley Almand — And I just like something broke in me. Rich Birch — Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah. Tensley Almand — And I remember going home and I told my wife, I was like, I can’t do this anymore. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so I started the process of just trying to find a job. But the problem is I’ve genuinely felt called by God to ministry. And so God used that to, to lead us down the path of starting Decatur City Church. And, um, our whole dream was just to create a church that people who didn’t like church would love to attend. Tensley Almand — And so, which is really cool. Again, it’s probably a whole other episode, but really cool because we got to do that in one of the most unchurched cities in Atlanta. 70% of the people who live in Decatur ah don’t go to a church. And Decatur, for those who don’t know, small little town right outside of a big city. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — But literally, there’s over 600 churches in that town. So we used to say all the time, nobody wakes up on Sunday wondering where a church is. They just wake up wondering if church is for them. Rich Birch — Right, right. Tensley Almand — And so that’s, that’s the thing we tried to solve. Right. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so did that for 12 years, thought I would do that with my whole life. Just an amazing season. And then God called me out of there to Atlanta Mission. And so for those who don’t know, and we can get into that story here if you want to, but, for those who don’t know, Atlanta mission, like you said, it’s the largest and longest running provider of services… Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — …for men, women, and children experiencing homelessness in our city. So for perspective, what that means is on any given night, we’ll have about 800 men, women, or children who are staying with us. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. That’s a significant operation. That’s, that’s incredible. Tensley Almand — It’s a significant operation. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — It represents that in our city, that represents about 35 to 40% of all the shelter beds in Atlanta. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Tensley Almand — So that’s, it’s a, it’s pretty remarkable opportunity that we do that across three campuses in downtown Atlanta. Rich Birch — Okay. Tensley Almand — One for men, two for women and children. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And then we have this really cool drug and alcohol addiction facility out near Athens, which is about an hour outside of town, on 550 acre farm that is just beautiful ah for men who are in recovery from addiction. Rich Birch — Wow. Oh my goodness. Huh. Tensley Almand — So yeah. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s, that’s incredible. i’m I’m glad you started with the kind of community size that you’re you’re serving. That’s, that’s amazing. Give me a sense of the operation from like a, you know, total number of staff, other kinds of metrics. Like I’m just trying to, I know, you know, you’re not a kind of person that’s going to brag about that kind of stuff, but just trying to help people kind of place, because this is a significant operation, friends. Atlanta Mission is it’s a world-class organization doing great work and honored to have you on this the show. But people might not be ah kind of aware of the the scale of it. Give us a bit more sense of that. Tensley Almand — Yeah, no, it’s a, it’s a good question. I appreciate you asking. Cause yeah, I definitely don’t, I don’t want to, I don’t like going there, but… Rich Birch — Yes. And it’s even just, it’s a funny thing to, it’s a funny thing to even like, it’s like, well, we’re really good. It’s like, it’s like, well, yeah, it’s a tough thing you’re doing. So it’s like, man, it’s a weird thing to kind of try to but get ah your arms around. How, how do we talk about this? Yeah. Tensley Almand — Yeah. So let me kind of give you scope and then let me talk a little bit about what we’re doing. So scope is ah we’re we’re about a $20 million dollars a year organization. Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Tensley Almand — And so just like every church out there, that means, you know, we start July as the start of our fiscal year and we start at zero… Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — …and then we go and raise $20 million dollars… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …to meet the need of our expenses. And we do that through mainly private and and corporate donations. And so… Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — …we’re almost a hundred percent privately funded this year. Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Tensley Almand — We, we, we took our very first government grant. Rich Birch — Huh. Tensley Almand — But I mean, it’s a $250,000 grant, which is not insignificant, but on the scope of 20 million. So that kind of gives everybody an idea. So you’re talking about, uh, you know, thousands of donors who come alongside of us to partner with us, which is just amazing. Rich Birch — Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Tensley Almand — We serve about 800 men, women, and children, like I said, Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And we have right at about 180 staff… Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — …who are who are either you know full-time equivalents basically here with us. And that’s across four different campuses. So we’re essentially like a multi-site operation. So I’m sitting here at my office today, which is basically our mission support center. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — So your accounting, HR, development team, all of your infrastructure, and we support the work that’s happening all over our city. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And then we also have three thrift stores across Northeast Georgia that’s included in that head count. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — And so a little bit of that 20 million that I was telling you about that that revenue comes from sales as well. And so, so yeah, it’s pretty broad organization. And then what we do, a lot of people think about you know Atlanta Mission, especially here in our city, and they just think emergency shelter. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Certainly what we do. But of those 800 beds, roughly only 40% of those go towards emergency shelter. And so if you… Rich Birch — Oh, really? OK. Tensley Almand — Yeah. And so if you show up at our door and you just need safety, security, stability, um, you’re just trying to like get off the street… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …we have a program called Find Hope… Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — …and it’s a 30-day program. You can stay with us rent free 30 days. You know, bed meals, showers, really, really, really, really low expectation on those clients. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — It’s just like, hey, we’re here to meet your needs. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Tensley Almand — The other 60% of our beds go towards what we call our transformational model… Rich Birch — Okay. Tensley Almand — …where we provide complete wraparound services. It’s about a year long program. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — You show up and we’re going to try to help you get healthy relationally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, vocationally. We’ve got counselors, we’ve got advocates, we’ve got social workers. You have a whole team… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …that works with you, walks with you for a year… Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — …depending on really your core traumas, what’s caused your homelessness. And our main goal, our mission is to transform through Christ the lives of those who are experiencing homelessness, poverty, and addiction. Tensley Almand — And so what we want to do, what that means to us is over the course of that year, Um, we want to give you the tools to identify your traumas, understand those traumas and ultimately break the cycles so that you don’t ever have to come back to our doors again. We we tell our clients, we love you, but we don’t ever want to see you again. Like this is just like, like, how do we… Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. This was a phase of your life, hopefully, right? Tensley Almand — Yeah. Rich Birch — That’s the goal. Tensley Almand — How do we end that for you? And so our program goes through all the counseling, all the services, and it wraps up in a vocational training program we call Next Steps that… Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. Tensley Almand — …that gives our clients the soft skills they need to not just get a job. Because here’s here’s what’s really cool. You you would get this. Our clients are really good at getting jobs. But like so many people out there, we’re terrible at keeping a job. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Yes. Tensley Almand — Like people don’t know the skills needed to like keep a job. Like how do you manage conflict? Rich Birch — Right, right. Tensley Almand — What do you do with that boss who’s just overbearing? How do you have normal workplace conversations? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — And so we have a ah four week training program that gives our clients those skills. And what we’re finding is that for the clients who go all the way through our program, 70% of those who graduate our program, they still have a house or a living situation a year later. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — And they are maintaining that job a year later. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredible. Tensley Almand — And so it’s just been a remarkable, remarkable journey. And so we’ve got some transitional housing in there… Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — …where you graduate our program, you stay with us, we help you save up and and we help you find an apartment. And then when you’re ready financially and you’re you’re stable, we help you move into that that apartment. Tensley Almand — And what’s really cool, probably one of my favorite things is for alumni is that year after you graduate, you get a retention coach with us and they walk with you. And they just help you navigate life because, man, when you’ve stayed somewhere for a year and then you kind of come back in and you’re like, oooh, the pressures of the world are on me. That first year is so tough. Rich Birch — So hard. Yeah. Tensley Almand — Yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — Well, that’s cool. I appreciate you sharing that. and And yeah, even church leaders that are listening in, um man, ah there whether if you’re in the Atlanta area, you definitely should reach out to Atlanta Mission. Rich Birch — But even in your neighborhood, like there are, this is why you shouldn’t be trying to invent this yourself as a church. There are these are incredibly complex issues that you know when I heard all of the the different things you’re doing to surround people, try to help them, um that’s that’s inspiring. That’s amazing. Rich Birch — Well, I’d love to pivot and talk about kind of your experience as you’ve transitioned in, like some try to extract some leadership lessons. It’s been said that one of the first things that leaders do is define reality or gain clarity for their for their organization. Rich Birch — When you first started early on in your role, what were you listening for or look for that told you, maybe there’s some areas here that just aren’t very clear? What did you see as you were, you know, we got to bring some more clarity in the organization? Were there things you kind of saw that that made you think, oh, we maybe this is some areas we need to gain some better clarity as an organization? Tensley Almand — Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, every leadership transition is different. One of the advantages I had is that what my predecessor was leaving me was so much different than what he inherited. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And so he inherited an organization that was in crisis. He handed me an organization that was thriving. But, that organization really was, and he was, and it’s it’s all kind of wrapped up in our story, is that it was time for him to retire. It was time for him to move on. And so the whole organization was asking what’s next. And so that’s, that’s one advantage I had is that there was this collective, like, well, like what what is next for us? That was helpful. Tensley Almand — The other advantage I had, and I did not think this was an advantage. But, you know, I, I came out of church ministry. I didn’t know how to lead a nonprofit. I didn’t know anything about homelessness. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Tensley Almand — I didn’t know much about social services. And so, yeah I truly believe God called me into this, but I couldn’t come in like an expert. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so I literally was forced to, my I tell people my door said CEO, but I think I was really the chief question officer. I mean, my my first year… Rich Birch — Help me understand. Help me understand. Tensley Almand — …was, yeah, asking questions. I can I can vividly remember our clinical director coming into my office and saying, hey, we’ve got this massive clinical decision that we need to make and there’s this and this and this. And you know and then like trying to leave that way. What do you think we should do? And I’m like… you’re the clinical director. Like, what do what do you mean? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — But that was again, and this is and he would say this if he was sitting here, my predecessor had an organization that was in crisis. And so every decision had to center on him. And I needed to come in and teach our team how to have a decentralized leadership. How like, hey, look you’re the clinical director I’m going to support you, I’m to remove obstacles for you. But if I have to make clinical decisions, we’re we’ve got a really big problem because I’m not qualified to make that decision. Tensley Almand — And so um really pushing leadership down… Rich Birch — yeah Tensley Almand — …asking a lot of questions, understanding what we do. And so that was that was a huge advantage that that i think a lot of people probably, they can like I did, they they think about the things that are stacked against them. To me, it’s like you don’t know anything about the space. That’s a big obstacle. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Well, maybe lean into those obstacles because it’s a really good way to to get underneath the hood. And so it forced me to ask questions, forced me to listen. And then what I did is I I truly went on a just a listening tour. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — I set up a meeting, I think, with every employee of our organization. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Tensley Almand — And I asked everybody what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s missing and what’s confusing. Rich Birch — Huh. Tensley Almand — And I still have that notebook. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — I mean, my assistant like cataloged answers for days. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And what was so cool to me was that without having the same language, almost everybody in the organization identified the same rights, wrongs, missings and confusions. And so I was able to then take that and really come back to our senior team and say, hey, what should we do about this? Like we all… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — We all agree this is a problem. like What should we do do? And I think a colleague of mine, I remember walking into his office and he had this drawing on his board. I’m like, what is what is that? He’s like, well, is how I feel about our organization. I remember it was ah it was a circle. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And all the arrows were pointed in every direction around the circle. And he’s like, that’s us. Like, we’ve got the right idea… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …but everybody’s pulling in a hundred directions to try to figure out how to do that idea. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — and I said, man, we need to take that circle and get all those arrows on one side. Cause if we can collectively pull… and that just kind of became our quest. And so we took all those answers and, you know, basically the the big thing was, um you know, and I don’t know where I learned this, but I feel like when there’s clarity in an organization, ‘no’ is really easy and ‘yes’ is is really difficult. It’s like really easy to say no. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And what I found at Atlanta Mission was we were just saying yes to everything. And the reason we were saying yes to everything is because there was no strategy, there was no clarity. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And so we took that first year and a half, wrote our strategic plan, identified who we want to be and why we want to be that. And then what would it look like to be that organization? And so we just kind of built it backwards. And that’s the journey we’ve been on now for the last four years since I’ve been here. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s, ah yeah, that’s incredible. I love that that feeling. In fact, i I took over a nonprofit ah kids camp and much smaller scale than what you’re running. But I remember those early days where there yeah people are looking at you and and and there is this sense of like, okay, so like you got to tell us where we’re going. What is the thing we’re doing next? Like and it’s easy to like… the easy thing is, let’s try this. Let’s try that. Let’s do a bunch of different things. And that can lead to that pulling, those hundred different, you know, it’s lots of activity, but it’s not focused. Tensley Almand — Yeah. Rich Birch — And trying to get everybody on a kind of a shared page of or shared picture of what the future looks like, man, that’s great through this, this process of kind of we’re going to do a strategic plan over a year. What, what would you, what would you say to a leader that is feeling the pressure of like, Hey, I want to define the future now, as opposed to that feels like a step back. We’re going to year and a half and define this stuff. What would you say to a leader? Why should we slow down? Talk us through why that, how that benefited now that you’re on the other side of all that. Tensley Almand — Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is it’s it’s totally worth it. I mean, it it was hard. It was challenging. It it does feel like a step back. But I don’t know how to step forward without without clarity, you know. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And that’s, you said at the beginning, I got to ah got to be one of the campus pastors at North Point Community Church for years. I can remember Andy always saying, The beauty of North Point wasn’t that we got to start with a blank page, just that we started on the same page. Rich Birch — That’s good Tensley Almand — And I just think that like that, that is always set with me. And so when I when I started here, I realized like, hey, I don’t I don’t get the luxury of a blank page. I mean, this organization has been around since 1938. You know, when I when I started Decatur City, it was so easy because I just told everybody what we were doing and why we were doing it and there was nothing else we were doing. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so it was just like… But here it’s like, OK, if I can’t get to a blank page, the best thing I can do is we’ve got to get on the same page… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …or else we’re just we’re going to spin our tires. And, and you know, I think I’ll I’ll this story probably sums it up and maybe somebody can relate to this. I have a monthly breakfast with our board chair and our vice chair. And the very first breakfast I went to in this role, it was my predecessor’s last breakfast and my first. And so we’re all so it’s him, it’s me and it’s a board chair a vice chair, all of which have been around this organization 3x the amount of time I had at that point, I had been there like three days. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Couple weeks. Tensley Almand — And and we got this email the night before the breakfast, and it was from a developer. And they were offering $14 million dollars for the piece of property that my office sits on, which is a widely underused piece of property… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …that we’ve always kind of wrestled with, like, what do we do with this thing? Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — $14 million dollars. Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — That’s almost our entire year’s budget. Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — And I remember showing up to this breakfast with this LOI and I asked the question, should we take it or should we not? Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And nobody could answer my question. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Tensley Almand — Nobody knew if it was a good idea to take $14 million dollars or to walk away from $14 million dollars Rich Birch — And if that group doesn’t know, nobody else in the organization is going to know, right? Tensley Almand — And that’s exactly what I said. I was like, if you don’t know, and I don’t know… Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes, exactly. Tensley Almand — …nobody knows. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Tensley Almand — And so I started with that small group and I said, hey, would you give me the freedom to to take however long it takes for us to make sure we can answer that question? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Tensley Almand — And so in our first board meeting, I raised my hand and I just said, hey guys, I know I’m new, I know I just started. But I shared the story and I said, hey, we have to be able to answer questions like this. Or we’re never going to get anywhere. We may do a lot of good things, but we are going to have no idea if we did the best thing. Rich Birch — Right, right. That’s good. That’s good. So kind of double clicking on that, continuing to kind of focus in on this. You know, there are churches, organizations that will do the strat plan or roll. We go away for the big retreat. We come up with the new value statements. It’s got great strategy on paper. But it doesn’t end up translating into practice. What are you doing at the mission to try to make sure that we’re going from that wasn’t just a great document that’s like in a nice book somewhere, but it’s actually rolling out. Maybe give us some examples of that. And what are those kind of rhythms, cadences, all that? How how are you making that happen? Tensley Almand — Yeah, it’s wish I could really tell you we’re crushing it in this area. It’s this is a new habit for us. Rich Birch — Sure. Sure. Good. Tensley Almand — And so we’re I’m four years in. We just finished our first full fiscal year under our new strategy. And so I can tell you what we’ve learned. Rich Birch — Hey, that’s good. Yeah, good. Tensley Almand — One, once you get it built you have to start small. We, I wish I could remember the exact number, I think as a senior team we committed and told our board we were going to do 392 new initiatives or something in year one, you know. Rich Birch — Wow. Right. Tensley Almand — And this is a seven-year plan… Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — …we’re like we got almost for it and I think we got 100 through of the 392. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And we celebrated like crazy at the end of the year because it was like, that’s 100 things that were all in alignment that we’d never done before. We learned so much. So, start small. Tensley Almand — The other thing is we built our plan. And I was I was very intentional about this because of what you just said. I did not want another notebook that was going to sit on my shelf. And so our strategic plan is really a strategic roadmap. And what I have told our board, what I’ve told our staff is I want an organization that knows how to think. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And our our plan is really a roadmap for how we should think. It’s not overly prescriptive in necessarily what that means. Because it’s it’s designed to take us all the way through 2030. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Well, I have no idea what’s going to happen between now and 2030. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Tensley Almand — But I do know that if what we said we want to accomplish, we’re accomplishing, however that looks, by 2030, we’re on the right track. And so that would be the other thing is just like, I would build, I wouldn’t make it so prescriptive that it tells you like, Hey, next week you’re doing this. And the week after… It needs to teach the organization how to think, how to act so that the person who’s brand new on the front line, if I’m not in the room, they don’t need to spend any time going like what, what would Tensley want me to do? They just, this is who we are as an organization. It’s how we think. Tensley Almand — And then we at a senior level and then we pushed it all the way down to our organization. We built a meeting cadence around it. Rich Birch — Nice. Tensley Almand — And so we have our senior team meets once a week. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — That’s my six direct reports and plus my admin. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And we, one, so we do that on Tuesday morning, one, the first Tuesday of the month is a strategy meeting. We talk all about the strategic plan. That’s like a, how how are you doing and your department doing towards what you said you were gonna do? Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And we have a dashboard to measure that against. And then the next Tuesday is an operations meeting. And it’s just like, hey, what are what are we working on? We can’t live at 50,000 feet all the time. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Let’s get down to 1,000 feet or whatever it is. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And so we have that operations cadence. And then the third meeting is kind of like a catch-all, like, hey, what you know what needs to happen? And then our last meeting of the month is a monthly ministry review with the entire, not just my direct reports, but all the managers that sit under my direct reports. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool. Tensley Almand — And they lead that meeting. I listen in that meeting. And I get to hear what’s happening at every campus, what’s going on. And I get to hear how people are implementing or not implementing the strategy. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And then the very next meeting, if you’re keeping up, is then our strategy meeting. Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — So then I’m like, hey… Rich Birch — Here’s some stuff I heard. Tensley Almand — …tell me more about this. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Tensley Almand — Or I didn’t hear like, Hey, I thought we were working on this. Why is that not happening? And so we have dashboards. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Tensley Almand — We’ve never had those before. We have data that we can follow. We have metrics we’ve identified as a, as a team, our wins. And so it’s like, Hey, how are we tracking towards those wins and just have created a layer of accountability that didn’t exist probably three years ago. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Let’s talk a little bit more about the data thing. I’ve, or data thing. We, I’ve, I’ve said with younger leaders, you know, spreadsheets are the language of leadership. Like you’re going to have to get used to this stuff. This is just… Tensley Almand — Yep. Rich Birch — …this is how we care for people at scale is, is that is what it looks like. So data can either inspire or intimidate. How do you track outcomes? How do you, how do you how have you seen, you know, data over this last year actually change behavior and move things, improve care, better outcomes, all that kind of stuff. Talk us through what, cause you know, what we measure can get, can, you know, steer us in the wrong direction or steer us in the right direction. Help, help us think through that. As we’re thinking about what numbers should we pay attention to? Tensley Almand — Yeah. So again, when I started, that was a big question I had. So if you were to look at our numbers, you would see that we serve, you know, let’s, these are rough, but right at about 3000 people a year come through our doors. Rich Birch — Okay. Tensley Almand — Right. Which is huge. Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — You’re like, man, that’s amazing. Well, then I, as I walk you through that, by the time you get to the end of our vocational training a year later, we may graduate like 400. And then 70% of those 400 are still doing well the the next year. And so, you know, on paper, you’re like, man, is that good? Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Tensley Almand — Like that, that there’s a lot of attrition there. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Like should, is, is, are we fail… And that was, again, when I started, that was a question nobody could answer for me is, Hey, is that good? Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so even backing up before we built our strategy, our senior team spent so much time defining our outcomes. And we had all of these statements, you know, but it was like we want somebody to be healthy vocationally. Tensley Almand — It’s like, okay, what does that mean? Crickets in the room. Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — Wait, if you don’t know what it means and I don’t know what it means, does the person who’s leading that program know what it means? Better question: does the person who’s receiving our services know if they’ve actually achieved help in that area? Tensley Almand — And so we went through, defined all of those terms so that there was a clear outcome to it… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …so that we could then measure it. And then we built both a one-page dashboard that our senior team could look at at a high level. So I could I can open this dashboard on any Monday morning. It’s just in Tableau, so nothing super you know exciting. Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Tensley Almand — And I can just see, i can see progression through our program. I can see healthy exits. We’ve defined what are healthy exits. I can see, ah you know, are people getting stuck? That was a big thing we were we were learning is like, people are just getting stuck in our program and we’re committing to somebody. You’re going to be at this phase of the program 30 days. Well, then they spend 60 days. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And what we were finding. We were, so this, this probably long winded way of saying this, but what we, we didn’t know what was happening or why it was happening and it felt good. But you know, you’re like, I don’t know. Tensley Almand — And so what we were finding is it’s like, Hey, so that’s an example. Like, somebody gets stuck in our program. We promised them 30. It takes 60. All of a sudden, we were able to track that, hey, there’s a certain amount of fallout rate at this stage of the program. Why is that happening? Oh, people are stuck. They’ve been here too long. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — We got to fix that. And so it it enabled us to know what needed to be fixed and and not fixed. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Tensley Almand — And probably the the best real-time example of that is just recently. So I keep telling you the 70% number of graduates are successful. That’s kind of our historical data. Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Tensley Almand — Well, this year, that number fell for the first time ever. It’s gotten better every year. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — This year it fell and it fell like dramatically. And this is one of those I don’t like to talk about it because it doesn’t look good. Rich Birch — Interesting. Yes. Tensley Almand — I mean, like it fell down to almost like 45, 50 percent. Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Tensley Almand — You’re like, what’s happening? Rich Birch — Almost inverse. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Tensley Almand — Exactly. And so at first, you’re like, our program is no good. We got rewrite our program. Well, thankfully, we had been tracking all of the kind of whys and we understood what was happening in people’s lives. And what we have found out is no, like the economy shifted. You can’t get a job in 30 to 60 days anymore. Rich Birch — Interesting. Tensley Almand — And so a gate in our program is when you graduate, you have 60 days to get a job. If you don’t get a job, you can’t move into our transitional housing because if we just allow you to stay, beds back up and then more people can’t get in. Tensley Almand — Well, our clients then would stop taking our advice and stop waiting for a good job. And at day like 50, they would just go get that job that doesn’t pay well. Rich Birch — Ohhh. Tensley Almand — And they knew it wasn’t going to be a career builder job. It was just going to keep them sheltered. Rich Birch — Right, right. Tensley Almand — And so it was our our like metrics were actually driving a behavior we didn’t like. Rich Birch — That’s interesting. Tensley Almand — And so we’re in the process now of like, hey, we’ve got to change this. The length of time it takes to get a job now takes longer. and Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — The job market’s more you know fierce right now. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so we don’t want nothing against these types of jobs. We don’t necessarily want our client leaving to go get a job at McDonald’s Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — But for them, leaving it to go get a job at McDonald’s versus not having a place to stay, I’ll take the McDonald’s job… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Tensley Almand — …even though I know I’m only going to be there three months. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Tensley Almand — And so it was throwing off all of our numbers and it’s because we were incorrectly driving a behavior that we don’t want to drive. So. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s cool. That’s a great, very vivid example. And there’s lots of that in the church world. I know you I know you know that. There was a church I was doing some work with last year, large church, 10,000-person church. And they were we were talking one of the numbers I obsess with my clients over is documented first-time guests, the actual number of people that come every single weekend. And I was convinced that this church was just was missing a whole bunch of first time guests. And so they were telling me about how great their, their, their assimilation numbers were. They were like, Oh, this is so great. And I was like, I just don’t believe it. I’m like, because, because if you are not capturing the number of, of documented first time guests, then yeah and you’re comparing against half of what you probably actually have coming into your church, then then every number be below that, all your integration stuff looks twice as good as it actually is. Tensley Almand — Yeah. Rich Birch — And you know that that happens in lots of places across our numbers. We’ve got to get real clear and benchmark against other people. Tensley Almand — If I could go back and if I could go back, no, no, it’s just, like I’ve often thought like, what would I do different if I was a church leader now? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a good question. Tensley Almand — And I would I would measure so much differently. Rich Birch — Yeah, interesting. Tensley Almand — You know, historically we’ve measured nickels and noses, right? Like how much money’s coming in and how many people are sitting in the pews. But it’s like, those are important. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — I wouldn’t stop measuring them, but I would pay attention to like this. I would try to find a way to measure progression, you know. Rich Birch — Yes, 100%. Tensley Almand — It’s like to your point how many first-time guests are you having okay well then of those first-time guests how many of them are actually moving to your small groups. Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%. Tensley Almand — Of those who moved your small groups do any of them ever volunteer like and and really understand the behaviors you want. And then measure to those behaviors and i think especially in a world where just church attendance looks so much so much different, we could gauge health of our churches so much more effectively if we were Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true. I’d love to I’d love to kind of pivot for a few minutes in a slightly different direction. Tensley Almand — Okay. Rich Birch — So we have a lot of church leaders that are listening in and I’d love to understand how Atlanta Mission partners with churches. What does that look like? How do you work together? So specifically at Atlanta misha, and then what would you, Mission, and then what would you say to churches in general? Hey, um what advice would you give now that you’re on this side of the equation of actually partnering with an organization like Atlanta Mission? How can you be kind of the best partner? How do we what are what are people on your side of the table actually looking for from a church like ours? Because I’m sure there’s all kinds of stories of like, yeah, that didn’t work well. Talk us through what that looks like, partnerships specifically, and then kind of in general, how can we be better at that? Tensley Almand — Yeah, and partnership is one of our pillars of our strategic plan. I think I think for nonprofits, especially when you’re large and you’re self-funded, you can it’s easy to get siloed. And we we fell into that category, not just with outside partners that wanted to come in and help us, but also with other service providers across the the, you know, continuum of care in our city. is It’s just it’s easy to kind of put your head down and do your own thing. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so this is a huge emphasis for us, mainly because it’s really woven into the vision of our organization. Our organization is a community that’s united to end homelessness one person at a time. Well, I mean, it’s like partnership has to be built into that. Rich Birch — Right. Yes, baked into it. Yeah. Tensley Almand — So what who are we to then go get siloed? Like, that’s like, wow, you can’t even accomplish what you said you wanted to do. And so um we… I’ll back into this answer by telling you one of the things we’ve discovered at Atlanta Mission is that this isn’t this, you know, this isn’t novel, but, you know, material poverty, we all know is debilitating. Relational poverty is just as debilitating as material poverty. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Tensley Almand — And what we find with our clients is that almost 100 percent obviously are struggling with some version of material poverty, but they are just relationally broken and poor. They are void of healthy relationships. And so this is this is so much where partnership comes in, because we we literally have a metric that we track of how many healthy contacts does a client have in their phone before they graduate our program. And what we were finding is I mean we were their only healthy contact. Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Tensley Almand — And it’s wait this is this is not good. And this is such a great place for churches to partner with us because we have so many opportunities that we just call we call them “be with” opportunities there’s like there’s “do for” service projects but there’s also “be with” service projects. And they’re just designed for you to establish healthy community with our clients, build relationships, throw a birthday party for somebody… Rich Birch — That’s so good. Right. Tensley Almand — …have a Christmas party at one of our shelters. Come, you know, we’re moving into the holiday season, you know, come and build gingerbread houses together with our kids who are staying with us and just create an hour in somebody’s life that’s normal. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And I feel like churches are better at this than anybody. Our corporate partners are fantastic at the “do for” projects. They can then come in and beautify our campuses in 30 minutes in a way that none of us can. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — You know, Home Depot comes in and it’s like, we’re going to transform your landscape. Great. This is awesome. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Tensley Almand — I love it. But a church can come in and just be authentic and be real and be with our clients. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And you would be amazed at how different somebody’s life looks after just that hour. And so, and I think that’s a huge thing. And then what I would tell churches, I think even as a church leader, I I probably overlooked how vital we were to nonprofits. You just you know, you think it’s an hour, but you know, even the day of, you know, you wake up that morning and you’re like, they don’t really need me. Like, I don’t know. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — This is, am I not really going to make a difference? Yes, you are. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — You are going to make a huge difference. It is worth the hour. It is worth the drive. Tensley Almand — And we we tell people all the time, and I’ve seen this in my own life. The thing that happens at Atlanta Mission is there’s always two stories of transformation happening. There’s the story of transformation that’s happening in a client’s life. But God transforms my life every day. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Tensley Almand — And it’s that’s the part I didn’t expect, Rich, is that… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …my life is being changed as much as anybody else’s. And so I would, I would tell a church, Hey, our clients need you. But you need this as well. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Tensley Almand — Like God’s going to do something in your life. Tensley Almand — And then the other is just, um I think, especially for really big churches, it’s easy to think like, I bet they need my expertise. It’s like, actually, that’s not like. We need your partnership. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Tensley Almand — You know, we, we know how to do this. Come put wind in our sails. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, Tensley Almand — Come just serve, be a part of what we’re doing. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. That’s super helpful. Love love that. Well, just as we’re coming to land, any kind of final words or encouragement you’d you’d say to church leaders that are listening in today that are, you know, wrestling with maybe clarity or wrestling with some of the stuff we’ve talked about today? This has been a really fruitful conversation. Thank you for it. Tensley Almand — Yeah, I think the, you know, probably the biggest thing I would say, and I have to tell myself this all the time. I mean, I’m an entrepreneurial type A. I’m going to like, you know, go conquer the world in a day is that, you know, remind yourself, you know, more than likely what you can accomplish in 90 days is nowhere near what you think it is, you know. But what you can accomplish in a year or two years is probably way more than you ever imagined you could. Rich Birch — Right. So true Yeah, that’s good. Tensley Almand — And so just again, kind of back to the strategy thing, it takes time. It’s messy. You know, you’re going to feel like, is this worth it? It creates conflict on your team. It feels uncomfortable. We were, we were joking as a senior team the other day. There was, it was about a year where I just, every Tuesday morning, I thought I want to cancel this meeting because I just didn’t enjoy, like we were just, we were at conflict because we were… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Tensley Almand — …hashing out who we are and why we exist and what are we going to do and why are we going to do it? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — But now it’s my favorite hour of the week. Like, I just love it. And so, you know, I would say that… Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — …you know, and I think, yeah, I don’t know that I have anything, you know, much more. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — Yeah. Rich Birch — No, that’s good. Well, I really appreciate being on the show today. Where do we want to send people if they want to connect with you or with Atlanta Mission? Where are the best places for us to send people online? Tensley Almand — Probably the easiest place is just our website, atlantamission.org. You can find everything you want to about us. If you want to know more, you can email info@atlantamission.org. And that actually goes right to my assistant and we’ll get you connected to the right person. And you can, you know, next time you’re in town, you partner with us. You can help us. You can be happy to give you a tour, show you what we do. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Tensley. Appreciate you being here today. Tensley Almand — Thanks.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Jamie Barfield, the Lead Pastor at Palmetto Pointe Church in South Carolina. Palmetto Pointe is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with four locations in South Carolina, a campus in Southern Illinois, and Spanish-language services reaching even more people. Is your church in a season of slow growth or scarcity? Wondering how to stay faithful and creative when resources are tight? Tune in as Jamie shares powerful lessons from 18 years of ministry—how his team built a thriving, multiplying church by embracing perseverance, stewardship, and servant leadership. The long road to growth. // Palmetto Pointe's story is one of persistence and faithfulness. It took three years to break 100 in attendance, five years before Jamie drew a paycheck, and six before the church had its own building. Today the church averages 2,500 weekly attendees and continues to grow—up 31% last year alone. Jamie credits that perseverance to remembering the “why” behind ministry: reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ. Stewardship over scarcity. // In the early years, Jamie says the constant feeling of “not enough”—not enough money, volunteers, or influence—could have been crushing. Instead, it shaped the church's DNA around stewardship and innovation. Rather than throwing money at problems, the team learned to think creatively and maximize what God had already placed in their hands. That approach still drives their ministry today. Faith that looks forward. // While rejecting the “name it and claim it” mindset, Jamie embraces faith-filled vision. Even when he doesn’t know how to get to big things, he continues to be faithful with what he has right now. This conviction shapes how he leads – every resource is treated as a seed that can grow if cultivated with faith and hard work. Developing leaders intentionally. // One of Palmetto Pointe's most distinctive practices is its 12-week leadership development process, a hands-on journey that every potential leader must complete before serving in a leadership role. Participants are recommended by current leaders and walk closely with Jamie throughout the course. During those 12 weeks, participants serve across multiple ministries and complete weekly assignments that build humility and discipline. Only after completing the program do they join the pool of eligible leaders. Multiplying wisely. // As Palmetto Pointe has launched new services and campuses, Jamie has learned key lessons about healthy multiplication. Each expansion begins with identifying potential pain points, recruiting dedicated volunteers, and ensuring no one burns out. Before adding services, his team recruits a core group committed to that specific time slot for at least nine months. Encouragement for church leaders. // As a district overseer, Jamie has a heart for pastors—especially those in smaller churches who feel stuck or discouraged. His advice: make one Sunday amazing. Pick one big day—Easter, Mother's Day, or another big day—and go all in. Then pick one person and invest deeply in them. Small, faithful steps of stewardship often lead to exponential impact. To learn more about Palmetto Pointe Church, visit palmettopointechurch.com or connect with Jamie on social media at @pastorjamieb. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don't need more pressure—you need support. That's why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn't stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It's like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad to have you tune in today. We’ve got a great conversation. Really looking forward to talking to a leader who I know you can learn from, talking about stuff that is really important as we think about our churches and think about the future. It’s our honor today to have Jamie Barfield with us. He is part of the leadership team at Palmetto Pointe Church. I don’t know why that’s stuck in my mouth coming out.Rich Birch — It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country with four locations in beautiful Myrtle Beach in South Carolina, a location in Southern Illinois and Spanish services as well. He’s an ordained bishop in the Church of God, serves as a district oh overseer for the Myrtle Beach and surrounding areas. He’s also served, he’s got a lot going on, in the State Evangelism Board for the Church of God in South Carolina. Welcome to the show, Jamie, a real expert on the show today. Appreciate you being here.Jamie Barfield — I don’t know about expert, but it is an honor to be here. I learned a lot from the school of hard knocks, so I will be definitely able to answer from that point point of view.Rich Birch — Love it. Well, Palmetto Pointe is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Now multiple locations, which is we see that 73% of churches over 2000 have multiple locations. For leaders that don’t know the story, kind of give me the story of your church. Tell me a little bit of what’s going on. If it were to arrive this weekend, what would that look like?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, wild, wild story. 18 years. We just celebrated 18 years. Rich Birch — Congratulations.Jamie Barfield — Took us three years to ever break 100. Five years before I was ever getting a paycheck from the church. Rich Birch — Wow.Jamie Barfield — Six years before we ever had our own facility. Seven years before I ever had another staff member with me. Right before COVID hit, we were doing four services. And then obviously COVID shut everything down. And last year, God’s favor has just been upon the church the last few years. Last year, we grew about 31% last year – it was wild. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. And what does attendance look like now on the weekends at your church?Jamie Barfield — We had 2,500 last Sunday. Rich Birch — Wow. Jamie Barfield — And we had but 2,500 last Sunday and that we we had about, of that probably 2,100 was here at our our main location here in Myrtle Beach.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible. Well, I appreciate that you paced out the timeline there, because I think there’s a lot of church leaders who, or church planters who are in these early days, and it feels like, and the early days could be half a decade, you know, it could be a long time.Rich Birch — Take us back when you think kind of the mindset of that, what what what was that experience like? How did you keep going? Talk us through what did that look like?Jamie Barfield — Yeah. Early on, you know, and I talked at a conference last weekend about your “why”, knowing why you’re in this to begin with, knowing why you started and never forgetting the thing that actually put you in ministry to begin with. You know, that moment God called you, that moment that he asked you to do something great for him.Jamie Barfield — And in those moments or those seasons, um early on specifically, when you were ready to throw in the towel and ready to quit, you always had to be reminded of, okay, God, why am I doing this? What is it that you put inside of me that pushed me to want to do something great for your kingdom?Jamie Barfield — It was never about a paycheck. It was never about being on an amazing podcast like this. It was never about speaking at conferences. It was always about reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ and doing our best to get that out there. And so in moments where you wanted to throw in the towel and you wanted to quit, you always go back to those seasons of, okay, God, why did you call me into this to begin with?Rich Birch — And what, what, when you answer that question in your own life, where does that, but you know, kind of, when you think about the why, how, what is what’s the kind of image that comes to mind or language that you wrap around for, for you?Jamie Barfield — I’m very visual. So I think of standing before the throne of God one day and him saying, well done, my good and faithful servant.Rich Birch — So good.Jamie Barfield —And I’m so it’s going to be such a beautiful moment, but it also also motivates me .bBecause I think in that moment that I’m going to go in there almost nervous of the time that I wasted or the time that I gave up or the time that I… And I’m so I’m so motivated by that moment that I just want to stand there and have him look at me with a big smile on his face and say, you did it. You did everything that I put before you to do. You did it. Good job, servant.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, early on, if we could talk for real here… Jamie Barfield — For real. Rich Birch — …like church planting, man, it’s it’s it’s tough.Jamie Barfield — It’s the hardest thing ever.Rich Birch — And those early years, yeah, those early years, it’s like, I don’t know. It’s like, you’re not rolling in cash. You don’t have the resources. You don’t have the people. Man, how how did that go for you? The kind of scarcity? How did that shape the way you lead, innovate? Talk us through that piece of the puzzle.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, lack of money, lack of volunteers, lack of influence in the community. You know, it it feels like you know the the word attached to church planting so often is lack. I don’t have enough.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Jamie Barfield — And that mindset inside of church planters, it’s going to be the thing that either crushes them or is going to cause them to innovate. For us, we just decided it was going to be the thing that pushed us or that drove us. And so the scarcity mindset that you spoke about at you know the beginning of ministry was some some things that were birthed inside of us that created some stewardship principles that we still follow today at our church. You know, we’re very much penny pinchers. We’re going to try the best to figure out the best way rather than just throwing money at problems.Jamie Barfield — You know, I got buddies that, you you know, with the best of intentions, they just think that they can you you know, throw money at situations or at problems and it’s going to fix everything. And our mindset is just, we’re just going to be innovative. We’re going to try to figure this out and do it the best way we can without expecting that money is going to fix everything, or that volunteers are going to fix everything, or that influence is going to fix everything. So even at the start, all of that lack created or birthed something in us that has followed with us for the last 18 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d I’d love to talk a bit a bit a bit more about that. Well, first of all, I think it’s I think it’s good that you’re underlining mindset. I know for me as a leader, and it took me way too long to figure out that like kind of my approach. You know, I’m not like, ah you know, name it and claim it kind of person. I don’t think I can like, you know, I can’t just like make stuff up.Jamie Barfield — Sure.Rich Birch — But what I do know is if I don’t have the faith for it, if I don’t believe that God’s going to do something, then it doesn’t happen. Jamie Barfield — Yeah, for sure. Rich Birch — And so I’m not sure how that happens. There’s like a weird connection there between what I believe about faith and like, and I probably some people are like, man, this guy’s got bad theology. But talk us through that mindset and how, maybe give us a couple examples of how that has impacted you even today.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, yeah. So I agree completely. The the you know concept of name it and claim it versus you got to have faith and where is that balance? And I’m unsure as well, probably got bad theology as well. But I definitely think that, you know especially early on, like it was, God, I see big things in our future. And I’m not sure how to get to big things, but I know I can’t settle with these things that we have now. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good.Jamie Barfield — So I have to press forward to make the things that we have in our hand now. I have to be a good steward of what you’ve given me. You know, he is faithful with little. You’re going to reward us with much. So, God, I’ve got to be faithful with what you put in my hands now.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Jamie Barfield — And I’m going to do the absolute best with this that I have in my hand now. But I’m going to do everything I can to make this thing better. Because I see bigger, because I see greater in front of us. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — And so I’m not going to just stop here and say, well, this is all that I have. This is this is all that I’m ever going to be. I’m going to do more for you with what you placed in my hands. I’m going to be that servant that whenever you walk away from me, you gave me two talents. I’m go to do my best to turn it into four.Rich Birch — Yeah that’s, yeah, that’s amazing. That’s that’s so good. I love, you know, we wanna be multipliers of what, you know, what’s given. And I think the the financial stewardship thing makes sense. I think that’s understandable. You can see where, man, we gotta be good we gotta use the resources we have.Rich Birch — What about on the people side? When you think about kind of being good stewards of your people, maybe developing leaders, that sort of thing, how does that work? What practices have you helped has have you kind of kept this mindset of innovation, kind of getting the most out of our people, that sort of thing. How has that impacted how what you do even today?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, so I grew up in a very small church, you know maybe 70, 80 people. Maybe on on big Sundays we had 120 on Easter or something of that nature. And I saw leaders being thrown into situations, not trained well, not knowing church culture, not knowing what expectations were, not knowing the pastor’s heart. I saw all of that growing up.Jamie Barfield — And those leaders that were thrown in oftentimes would find themselves burnt out by focusing on things that they really had no passion for. And the pastor maybe didn’t know what the thing inside of them that was the thing that really you know would drive them. And so we just decided whenever, you know, probably 10 or 12 years ago, we just decided we were going to create a process of knowing our our leaders and our leaders knowing me well.Jamie Barfield — And so so we we go through a you know, I tell them all the time as we do a 12 week course. It’s not really we call it leadership development, but it’s not really leadership development. It’s more about you have to learn this culture. You have to learn my heart and my expectations for you. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — But I’ve also got to learn your story, and your passion, and your vision. Because I want us to walk away from this 12 weeks together, I want to walk away better prepared for a future together. And so as you’re walking this 12 weeks out with me, you’re you you know they’re serving everywhere in the church and serving in kids ministry one week and you know making coffee one week and all of the things. But what we’re learning in that season together is expectation. And you’re learning me and I’m learning you, but we’re putting expectation on what it takes to be a leader. And so as they finish this 12-week process with me, they then go into this pool of just to even be considered to be a leader in our church. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s interesting.Jamie Barfield — So everybody that’s ever been a leader in our church, before they ever get to a leadership role, they’re a part of this pool because they’ve been through this 12-week journey with me. And I’m there with these people every step along the way, because again, I’ve seen it done so poorly that I just wanted to make sure that my fingerprint was upon leaders and volunteers in such a way. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Jamie Barfield — You know, there’s again, go back to a parable of Jesus, you know, the sower and the seed, you know, there’s this, there’s this principle of where you sow, if you sow in good soil, that it’s going to produce a good fruit. And so these people that are, that are, have a passion for the kingdom of God and want to do something great for the kingdom of God, those are the people that I want to invest my time, effort, and energy into because those are the people that are going to produce the, the largest or most productive harvest.Rich Birch — Okay. I want to double click on this. Jamie Barfield — For sure. Rich Birch — There’s a ah bunch there that I want to unpack… Jamie Barfield — For sure. Rich Birch — …which is fantastic. So how, so how do you identify or how does your team identify people that land in this 12 weeks? And then I’d love to talk a little bit about, you know, the, actually the mechanics of it what’s going on in those 12 weeks.Jamie Barfield — They have to be recommended by a leader in our church.Rich Birch — Okay.Jamie Barfield — It’s the only way to join the 12-week journey.Rich Birch — Okay.Jamie Barfield — So a leader in our church sees them, watches them serve or whatever inside of the church, and then they recommend them to my assistant, and we we start the journey with them.Rich Birch — Okay. And those, is it like you run it in like a couple of seasons during the year? It’s a class and like a cohort matter. What’s the content? Just give us a ah a bit of, you know, a bit more about that.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, we do we do two… Yeah, we do two semesters of it. So twice a year we run it. And it is ah one night a week. We meet at the church. We go through ah hour, hour and a half you know class type setting with constant homework through the week. And homework looks as simple as, you know, we we read the book, Andy Stanley, Next Generation Leader. We read through that together.Jamie Barfield — Homework is serving assignments on Sunday. Homework is cleaning the church. You know, little things like that that just creates this culture, this this servanthood inside of them. So once ah once a week, we’re here at the church learning together. But then through the week, we’re constantly um connected and, um you know, again, working, efforting to to sharpen them through the 12 weeks.Rich Birch — That’s cool. And you know you mentioned it multiple times. So you’ve really kept ownership of this group. They’re meeting with you. That I want to underline for folks that are listening in.Jamie Barfield — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, your church you said is 2,500 people. There’s a lot of pastors of a church of 2,500 that would say, hey, I don’t have time to meet with this. Kind of unpack that a little bit more. I know you mentioned this already, but I want to kind of unpack what what are you thinking about there? What’s the advantage? How far does that scale, you think?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, I am a huge advocate of whatever it is that you do, whatever’s on your plate. There’s some things that you have to do as a pastor or as a leader. And leadership development ought to be something that you have your fingerprint on. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Jamie Barfield — Whether it’s [inaudible] as much as mine is or whether it’s just, hey, I’m creating class and I’m stepping in every now and then, but somewhere, somehow, you have to be touching your leaders in the church and they have to know your heart. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jamie Barfield — Whenever they go away from this class and they’re serving wherever, and maybe even they’re on a campus or doing whatever they’re doing, when they walk away from me, they know me, they know my heart, they know my, my expectations.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jamie Barfield — And so I don’t have to go into, you know, seasons and step into kids ministry and try to put out fires and fix problems because they know me from the start before they ever get involved in certain ministries. They already know me and already know my heart. And so it just makes the the family community atmosphere of the church healthier…Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — …because from from birth, this is from birth. This isn’t something that we’re trying to teach on the run. This is something we teach from birth to through the process. And then whenever they launch into whatever ministry they um lead or or serve in they already have all the foundational principles, all the pillars are built.Rich Birch — That’s interesting. I love it. That’s, that’s great to learn more about. Talk to me about an expectation that ah that you have of your leaders that might be a little bit different. That might be like, oh, hey, it’s, you know, kind of in the secret sauce category that you’re like, hey, this is a part of what God’s using when, you know, hey, if you’re leading here, this is what we want you to be like, or something activity or something like that.Jamie Barfield — Yeah. So so for instance, servanthood is something that I’m very passionate about. I am a servant. I expect leaders here at this church to be servants. I think Jesus is the greatest leader of all time, and he was a servant leader. It’s who he was. It was a part of his you know, character. And so, so servanthood is something that we, my wife and I portray to our leadership. And then we give expectation that this is what we expect from leaders inside of our church and throughout every department of our church.Jamie Barfield — I think that is, that is, you know, something as simple as when you see some trash in the parking lot, as you’re walking up, you pick it up. All the way to when we’re having church events here, my wife and I are the last ones to eat. We’re not first in line. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — We’re making sure everybody else is served because we want we want to make sure that we are servant leaders inside of our our team.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So I’d love to know, you guys have launched multiple locations, obviously multiple services within that. Multiplication is, to me, is a sign that you’re developing leaders. There’s something good happening on that front. You can’t do that unless you, you know, have multiplied leaders. Talk us through some of the lessons you’ve learned around multiplication as it relates to leadership development and how that all works together.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, I will say that good leaders multiply themselves, but so do bad leaders. Rich Birch — Oh gosh, that’s true. Oh man.Jamie Barfield — And so that’s and so that’s that that’s that’s dangerous as well. Rich Birch — Yes. Jamie Barfield — And so as as we multiplied, you know, from multiple services to, you know, multiple campuses and all the things that come with multiplication, as we have walked through the seasons of multiplication, we’ve always identified early the needs that were going to be present and tried our best to make an effort to make them not as painful as they could have been if we wouldn’t have identified them.Jamie Barfield — And so something as simple as you know whenever we you know we were talking about launching multiple services, when when we launched into multiple times, we’ve launched into multiple services and been able to you know, through growth, knock out walls and go back to one and then we’re at two and then we’re at three, knock out a wall, back to one, two, three. And then right at COVID, we were doing four. But the the healthiest way that we ever launched a service was we did a 8 a.m. and a 10 a.m. The 8 a.m. was for volunteers only. So it was kids’ workers. It was, you know, we did, but did we did a full service. We did the band. We did I did my full sermon. It was volunteers only, but you’re welcome to come. Rich Birch — Right. Jamie Barfield — But this is strictly, you know, we’re focusing on volunteers. But then whenever we launched into two, as that second service filled up, we launched into two. We completely changed service times. What was a 10 a.m. service, now we went to 9 and 11. So then everybody was forced and instead instead of saying, oh, well, this is my service time. Now everybody was forced to choose a different service time. Rich Birch — Right.Jamie Barfield — So the 8 a.m. people we you know went to the 9 a.m., obviously, and the 10 a.m. people had to choose, do I want to get up an hour early or do I want to come an hour later? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jamie Barfield — And so it was almost it was actually a 45 to 65 percent split whenever we went to the 9 and the 11. So it was the healthiest way we had ever done it, so incredibly beautiful.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — And so just, you know, if somebody’s watching this and they’re looking to go to two services, I would suggest have a volunteer service, go all in because that starts training your your band to do two services. It starts training your volunteers of what time they’d have to get there to be able to do multiple things. It kind of creates that buffer of a tension point in the future and being able to look look in advance to say, hey, let me let me work some of these issues out before we get there.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. um Kind of related to that, I feel like this is the year of like the three service questions, third service questions. Like I’ve had so many people in this last year reach out to me. I’ve written, I think three or four blog posts, probably 10,000 words on different stuff I’ve learned um about this because it’s like just keeps coming up. Like even today, literally today, I got an email about it this morning.Rich Birch — So talk me through what what you’ve done at Palmetto Pointe around identifying when we pull the trigger for more services. Is that what mix of that is like opportunistic—we’re creating new space—or it’s reactive, like which of how much of it’s proactive, reactive? And how do you, you know, your church is growing, you’re growing quickly. How do you, how do you keep a far enough ahead? Cause you can’t just decide, Hey, we’re going to do new services. You got to do planning to make it all happen. Talk us through what’s that look like? How are you kind of the, how, how do we know how to identify when we pull the trigger? That sort of thing. Talk us through what that looks like.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, reactive is terrible. I’ve done it twice. Reactive to, oh no, you know the parking lot’s full. Let’s plan a second service. You know, hat’s terribly difficult. You know, the proactive approach of, I see growth, here goes what, you know, we’re already talking about Easter next year, okay? Here goes how many people are gonna show up. How many services do we need for Easter? And then how much did we grow last year for Easter? So if those people come back, what can they expect the next week?Jamie Barfield — And so for me, it becomes, opportunistic, yes. Launching multiple services are going to help your church grow. But as you’re launching multiple services, the growth versus the attrition, how is this going to wear your team out? Is this going to wear your staff out? Is this going to wear your band out or your kids’ ministry workers out? And that balance of, okay, at what point do you press forward and what at what point do you pump the gas or pump the brakes? Jamie Barfield — And so I would just say for us, what we learned through this journey is, you know we want to make sure that when we launch into a another service that there’s a core group of people that are going to be a part of that service. I need you to I need you to say for nine months you’re going to be a part of this service and this is your thing.Jamie Barfield — And so when we launch into another service, we’re going to make sure that this group of people wants to be there, and this is their church and their service. And then for us, we’re going to make sure that we have a completely different staffed kids’ ministry, completely different group, so we’re not wearing out the already wore-out volunteers of kids’ ministry.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — And depending on the time slot, we’ve we’ve tried three different time slots for our third service, but depending on the time slot we choose, it potentially may be a completely different band as well. Maybe the same worship leader, but a completely different band. Because those are the really the two areas, kids ministry and band and the staff. Those are the three areas that are really going to wear you out with multiple services.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. That’s some really clear thinking there around that. Really appreciate that. You know, at 31%, if you continue to grow, I know you know this, you know, that’s like just less than two and a half years, you’ll end up doubling. Jamie Barfield — Right. Rich Birch — So you’ll be a church of 5,000 if you continue at this rate.Jamie Barfield — Crazy.Rich Birch — And that that becomes difficult to stay in front of. You know, I’ve led in churches that are growing at that rate. And it’s it’s hard to to keep the skis out in front, you know, keep things moving in the right direction.Rich Birch — Let’s pivot in a totally different direction. I want to take advantage of the fact that you’re a district overseer, in your movement. From your perspective, from your vantage point, what are you seeing across the church these days as it comes to growth and and challenges? And kind of what are you learning as you’re in that kind of coach seat?Rich Birch — I’m taking advantage of the fact that you’re coaching other leaders.Jamie Barfield — I actually love that you asked me this question because I was talking with a guy yesterday, and we were talking about how smaller churches specifically, those pastors are really struggling with grasping what their expectations of congregants are, and what the congregants’ expectations of the church should be.Jamie Barfield — We as small you know smaller church pastors specifically, but we expect them to show up and to give and to serve and to connect, but they don’t have those same expectations on their life. So 30, 40 years ago, those were the expectations of a church attender.Rich Birch — Right.Jamie Barfield — Now they’re not.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Jamie Barfield — And so we have these unrealistic expectations that are creating frustrations from the pulpit to the pew. And I think it’s it’s creating this disconnect, or or honestly, I’ve seen some pastors even preach maybe very angry towards their congregation because of the unrealistic expectations placed upon those people. And so I would say maybe just to the smaller church pastor, which again is 80% of America, you know…Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yep.Jamie Barfield — …those those guys listening to this, maybe be more understanding of how life has changed in the last 30 or 40 years. I’m not saying lower our standards of righteousness or scriptural truth, but understand that travel ball is a thing and it’s always going to be a thing. And you know, school plays and you know, families going on vacation. Rich Birch — Right.Jamie Barfield — Man, we celebrate when families go on vacation. I’m not mad at you for taking a vacation because I want a vacation, you know? Rich Birch — Yes.Jamie Barfield — And so we celebrate when families go on vacation. So just creating realistic expectations for the congregation rather than what the, what the expectations were 30 or 40 years ago.Rich Birch — That’s good. I like that. You know understanding where people are are today and not you know not overburdening them with ah a previous model. I think that’s a really good word for sure. How can we think about that same pastor that maybe sees that frustration and and takes the, you know, the pastoral word of like, yes, I’m not going to exacerbate my people, but I want to help clearly articulate. I kind of want to point to a brighter future for them. Jamie Barfield — For sure.Rich Birch — How do I what what would you suggest to them? How do you how should we do that? Jamie Barfield — Well, first off, I would say one of the things that I see giving life to pastors is them connecting with other pastors. Rich Birch — So true.Jamie Barfield — I would just encourage a pastor watching this to make sure that he has or she has somebody in their life that’s outside of the bubble of their own church that may be going through something similar to their to what they’re going through.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — And I just think pastors encouraging pastors. We’re on the same team. We’re in this together. Pastors, encouraging pastors. I love what you do here where you celebrate ministries and what they’re doing. I just see that giving such life to um to other pastors that are discouraged and frustrated and aggravated. So I would start there. I would say, man, pastors, find another pastor and speak life into them.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — Maybe maybe the second thing I would say is you know maybe maybe an encouragement to, you know, to pastors who have wanted to try something new and try something different. Maybe just an encouragement to you know and to to do it, man. Just do it. Just try it.Rich Birch — Give it a try.Jamie Barfield — See what happens. Throw spaghetti up against the wall and see what sticks.Rich Birch — You get a lot of grace from most, I think most of the people in our churches, we have the the negative voice person in our head, the person that like doesn’t love what we do and is like a complainer or whatever, but that’s like a rare minority in most churches. Jamie Barfield — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like most of the people in the church are cheering for the pastor, cheering for the leaders… Jamie Barfield — That’s right. Rich Birch — …and are like, man, I love that guy. I love that girl. And if you were to say, Hey, I’d love us to try this thing. It’s just a test. Let’s see what happens. Most people would be like, let’s do it, you know, and, and I, you know, that’ll be fine. And if it goes bad, then don’t take yourself too serious and say, well, we tried that. That didn’t work. And that’s okay. um Yeah, that’s good. I love that. That’s a great word for sure.Jamie Barfield — Yeah. Agree. Agree completely. Agree completely.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Well, just as we’re kind of landing today’s episode, any final words as we think about for people that are listening in about, you know, what you’ve learned through the years? I love the mindset stuff we’ve been talking about and just this whole area of like our our you know our approach to scarcity, how that works. But anything else you’d love us to think about today as we’re hanging up today?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, yeah um maybe maybe maybe just to um to the guys that are feeling guys and gals that are feeling stuck, um you know maybe maybe short on everything. Lack is a big thing. Here goes here would be my encouragement. Make every Sunday amazing the best you can, but pick one day and throw all of your energy towards that one day. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jamie Barfield — Maybe it’s Christmas Eve service coming up, or maybe it’s an Easter service or Mother’s Day or, you know, a manufactured big day, ah you know, a back to church Sunday or something of that nature. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — Pick a day and throw all of your energy towards that one day. Pick a person and start investing in a person. You may not be able to do a leadership development process, but pick a person and start investing your life into that person.Rich Birch — Dude, that’s so good.Jamie Barfield — Pick one event in the community and just show up for it. Just you know wear a church shirt and show up for the event and shake hands and hug necks and tell everybody, hey, you know. Pick one area of ministry and you know you know go go to your kids’ ministry and say, how can I make this better? You don’t have to fix it all right now. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Jamie Barfield — You don’t have to you don’t have to be great at everything right now. You don’t have to have the most amazing, you know, Mother’s Day yet. But man, you can find one thing and just start focusing on something. And I think this is where that mindset of there’s more out there. I’m going to focus on something and make this one thing that God has put in my hand. I’m going to make this thing better.Rich Birch — Dude, that is such good advice. You know, don’t drown in the all the things you wish you could do. Pick one thing and just do it. I love that. Jamie Barfield — Pick one thing and do it.Rich Birch — A friend of mine was a church planter and i was like, I think it was either the first or second Easter they did they went all in on the like Easter egg drop, which I know lots of people have done. But it was a smash success for them. They, you know, it was like five times their normal attendance. It was fantastic. The local news showed up. It was, and it gave, man, it breathed energy into the church for months. Jamie Barfield — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — Like they lived off of that because it was like, hey, that was a win. Yeah, that’s, that’s so good. Well, this has been a great conversation today. Rich Birch — I love talking to church planters. You know, I was recently with a leader of a church. We were walking around his facility and their buildings about 250,000 square feet, giant building. And he was talking about himself as a church planter. He was like, you know, referring to that. Rich Birch — And and I joked with him. I said, well, at what point do you stop being a church planter? Like when you, you know, when you you just are doing a $20 million dollars building or whatever, I think, you know, somewhere along the line. But he’s like, no, once a church planter, always a church planter. We’re always, ah you know, the same thing. So I’ve really appreciated this similar conversation today.Jamie Barfield — That’s exactly right. Rich Birch — Jamie, if people want to track with you or track with the church, where do we want to send them online?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, palmettopointechurch.com, it’s all over social media.Rich Birch — Perfect.Jamie Barfield — pastorjamieb, all of all of the social media handles are that. Love to connect with them…Rich Birch — That’s great.Jamie Barfield — …palmettopointechurch.com, I’d love to connect. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Jamie. Really appreciate you being here today, sir.Jamie Barfield — Thank you so much for the opportunity.

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