unSeminary Podcast

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Sarah Hooley, Executive Pastor at City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Founded in 2016 by Lead Pastor Chris Freeman, City Church is a young, rapidly growing, intentionally multi-ethnic, multi-economic, and multi-generational church. Since moving from a setup/teardown environment into their renovated 60,000-square-foot facility, the church has experienced explosive growth—reaching 2,500–2,600 weekly attendees, baptizing nearly 500 people this year, and engaging a high percentage of unchurched and new-to-faith individuals. Is your church reaching people far from Jesus but struggling to disciple them well? Are you navigating the complexities that come with rapid growth? Tune in as Sarah shares how City Church reaches, welcomes, disciples, and mobilizes people who often arrive with little to no church background. Reaching the unchurched at scale. // From the beginning, City Church planted itself intentionally in one of Fort Wayne's most racially diverse neighborhoods. Many guests arrive with no church vocabulary. Many don't know the difference between the Old and New Testament or famous biblical characters. Teaching, therefore, is designed with zero assumptions, helping newcomers feel included while still deeply challenging long-time believers. Worship reflects the church's diversity, blending musical styles in a way that unites cultures rather than centering one preference. Many first-time attendees hear about the church through friends who aren't yet believers themselves—evidence that transformation is visibly taking root. Welcoming culture built by transformed people. // One of the most powerful forces shaping City Church is its culture of warmth and belonging. Their Connections Director, Victoria, came to Christ through City Church herself—giving her deep empathy for the unchurched experience and a passion for noticing people. Her team is trained not just to greet but to see people, engage them meaningfully, and make church feel safe and familiar. Serve teams are intentionally open to nonbelievers as a front door for community and spiritual curiosity—allowing people to “belong before they believe.” This relational warmth is often the defining difference-maker for guests who have never experienced church before. Discipleship for people with no foundation. // Rapid growth and a high percentage of new believers revealed a critical discipleship gap. In response, Pastor Chris launched Act Like Men, a 15-week, high-accountability discipleship course for young men covering identity, integrity, purity, humility, servanthood, and spiritual discipline. Women quickly asked for something similar, prompting the launch of Be Bold Women, a complementary course that includes teaching, mentoring, small groups, a women's conference, and topics like emotional health, community, and living as a godly woman. A volunteer-driven church with a tiny staff. // One of the most stunning aspects of City Church is how much ministry happens through volunteers rather than staff. With only seven full-time staff and roughly 2,600 attendees, their ratio is radically outside national norms. Staff serve as equippers, not doers. High-level volunteer leaders oversee major portions of ministry: shadowing, training, leading teams, scheduling people, and pastoring others. Leadership development is an essential form of discipleship, not an operational necessity. Leading from abundance, not scarcity. // Sarah encourages leaders to adopt a “loaves and fishes” mindset – the question is not what the church lacks but what God can do with what it has. Simplicity, clarity, and focus keep the team aligned. Staff calibrate constantly, coaching one another to resist the pull toward doing everything themselves. Sarah also stresses the importance of relational support systems for leaders—cohorts, mentors, and peers who remind pastors that faithfulness, not outcomes, is the goal. To learn more about City Church, visit forthecity.com, or follow them on social media at @citychurchfw. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. This is going to be a jam-packed episode. You’re going to want to buckle up. We’re talking about a lot of stuff today that applies to your church that I know will be super helpful. I’m excited to be talking to Sarah Hooley. She is the executive pastor at a church called City Church in Fort Wayne, Indiana. This is a church you should be tracking with. If you’re not, they were founded in 2016 by lead pastor Chris Freeman. It’s a diverse church in a city that is for the city with multi-ethnic, multi-economic, multi-generational community. It’s really, God’s doing some incredible things here, and you’re going to want to track along with that. And we’ve got Sarah on the show to help us. Sarah, welcome to the show. Sarah Hooley — Thank you so much for having me. It is a privilege to be joining you today. Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be wonderful. I’m really looking forward to learning from you. Why don’t you tell us a little bit of the City Church story, kind of set up. Tell us a little bit about it. What’s going on Give us a sense of what’s happening at City Church. Sarah Hooley — Yeah, so we are a nine-year-old church plant. We were a set-up, teardown church for the last eight or so years ah seven and a half. We’ve move we bought a grocery store in 2020. Rich Birch — Good year. Sarah Hooley — Great time to buy a building, and and it was being used as a warehouse. And so we bought it and then the pandemic happened and we’re like, well, we still have a warehouse occupying the space. Maybe at some point it’ll become a church. We don’t know. And then it was just about a couple years ago that we then started a capital campaign and went to develop the the space. It’s 60,000 square feet. We developed about 40,000 square feet of it for our church. Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — I’m thinking, man, that’s going to, we’ll be set for a good long time. And we are out of space already. Rich Birch — Yes. Sarah Hooley — And so and we moved from two services to three. And now we’re just, excuse me, trying to figure out what do we do? um God has just been moving in incredible ways. Like we have from the from the start been very intentional about wanting to be a multi-ethnic, multi-economic, multi-generational church. And where we planted has been very intentional. Sarah Hooley — So even where we were for set up and tear down, and we were right in the heart of the city where it was the most ethnically diverse within Fort Wayne. So Fort Wayne is roughly about 66% white in the city as a whole, but in our neighborhood specifically, it’s more 40% African-American, 20% white, 20-ish percent Hispanic. And so it is a much more racially diverse area. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — And that is has been very intentional from the beginning. And so our location now, is it’s just been beautiful to see how God has really drawn people from every background. And, you know anyone who’s been a part of a multi-ethnic church knows that that that’s a messy process. It’s It is incredible to see, though, the the beauty and of what God can do when we are are not just attending a church together, but really in community with one another, and with people who come from radically different backgrounds um and and how that can really bring about a lot of healing in our stories and in our in our relationships. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — And so um we have grown since moving into the building, we were about 800 people um when we were set-up/teardown. And then once we moved into the building, it has just been um exponential growth. So we we have grown very quickly and just tried to keep up with all of it. Sarah Hooley — One of the things that I’ve i’ve just loved about City Church is it’s very intentional about um reaching those who don’t know Jesus. And so the that really comes from our our lead pastor, from Pastor Chris Freeman, his heart for the lost. So a lot of our growth has not been transfer growth. It’s not just people moving from church to church, but really those who’ve never set foot in a church, those who are, or who ah are really far from Jesus. It’s been a long time. Sarah Hooley — And the greatest evidence of that, that we’ve seen is we are on track to have 500 baptisms this year. Rich Birch — Wow. Oh my goodness. Sarah Hooley — That has just blown our minds. Rich Birch — That’s incredible. Sarah Hooley — Like we, We had to move up ah the frequency of our baptisms to every six weeks because we just could not keep up with all of the people who wanted to get baptized. Rich Birch — We’re not baptizing enough. That’s amazing. Wow. That’s incredible. Sarah Hooley — But we we’re about 430 right now, and I have over 70 people registered for this next upcoming one in December. Sarah Hooley — So it has just it has been a wild ride… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Sarah Hooley — …of um seeing God move in such phenomenal ways, and and just try to be faithful along the way. How do we steward these people well? Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — How do we continue to point them to Jesus? How do we encourage them to grow in their faith and to take those next steps of what it looks like to follow him? So it’s… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. There’s a ton we could we could unpack there, and maybe we’ll have you on in the future to talk. I um, you know, we’ve said it in the past on the podcast, every zip code in the country is more diverse today than it was 10 years ago, and 10 years from now, it will be more diverse, and our churches need to continue to progress towards reflecting the kingdom of God and being, as you’re saying, multi-ethnic. Rich Birch — And so there’s a ton we could we could learn from you on that. Maybe we’ll have you back in the future to talk about that. Cause I, that is definitely a thing I think we all can, can learn from, but I’d love to kind of key in on what you were talking there about. Hey, your church has a heart for, which I think lots of churches do have a heart for reaching people, who don’t know Jesus, but it’s like actually happening at your church, ah which is incredible. Rich Birch — So what were some early signs, you know, that you realize, or what are some of the signs that you realize, oh, this is actually happening. Like we’re actually reaching people. Baptism is one of them. Can you think of any other signs that were like, oh, we we’re reaching people who, who this is a brand new thing for them? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. So I mean, baptism was definitely a big sign of like, wow, these are, these are people who are, are new to following Jesus and taking that, that first step. And in our conversations with people who are preparing to be baptized, um, that, that was a part. It’s so funny, just, just this last week, uh, somebody posted on their Facebook page, uh, City Church choir is better than the club for real. Rich Birch — I love it. Love it. That’s great. Sarah Hooley — And they didn’t, like we don’t have, we didn’t have a choir. It’s our worship team, but like they don’t even know the words for what that worship team is. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yeah. They don’t know the words yet. Sarah Hooley — And, and the comments after that, like it, it truly was showing that we, we are drawing and attracting people who, who like, they’ve they’ve never really considered going to church. And then in our conversations with people, as they’ve realized, like, man, I do want this. I want to follow this Jesus. Like, this makes sense. This is incredible. But you just can’t assume anything. Rich Birch — No. Sarah Hooley — Like, they there’s no foundational understanding of what that looks like. There’s no, and and I think even just, there’s no understanding of even like what some sins are. Like, there’s just not like, oh, I didn’t even, not even realizing that like, that’s not a good idea to continue. So we’ve had, we have people who are like, yes, I want to follow Jesus. And then they’re still sleeping with their girlfriend. They’re still, you know, like it’s and it’s like… Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. 100%. Sarah Hooley — …oh, I didn’t, I didn’t even know… Rich Birch — The thing. Sarah Hooley — …that that was something that you shouldn’t do. Rich Birch — Yes. Sarah Hooley — And so really being able to, to come alongside and say, okay, man, we have to go back to the basics. We can’t assume anything. It’s gonna… Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — And it really has set the tone, even in just the way that Chris preaches and and all of our our pastors preach that we don’t make assumptions when we’re talking about scripture. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Sarah Hooley — So allowing um there not to be any barriers or or anything that would create a place where people would feel like, man, like everybody else knows what he’s talking about, but I don’t. And so like just the way that you set things up and explain things and introduce people. So you don’t don’t just assume that everybody knows who Joseph is from the Old Testament. Rich Birch — 100%. Right. Sarah Hooley — Like you have to be like, Hey, this is this guy. And so I think that that has led us to like, Chris does such a great job on Sunday mornings, but man, there’s, there’s so much more that we need to do as far as for people to truly learn what it means to follow Jesus when they don’t have much of a background. Like it’s going to take some more intentional discipleship that, um that we do. So that that has been really a process of of recognition that we even people who are coming on a Sunday… Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — …they’re excited about Jesus, there’s still some gaps there. Rich Birch — Sure. I’d love to talk. We’re going to get into the discipleship question, but I just want to pause just before we get there. And so um what do you think God’s using to help your church engaged? You know, in different circles of the Christian world, it’s called different things. Unchurched people, seekers, people who follow Jesus, people new to the faith, you know. So the teaching, I agree. That’s like a best practice around, um ah you know, taking time to explain. It takes three sentences to explain instead of just saying, well, you all know Joseph. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Rich Birch — He’s an example, which is just lazy preaching. You should take a few sentences, explain it. But what else is God using you think to, ah you know, to help your church reach so many unchurched people? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, you know, so we we really have, the the teaching is significant. Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — And that’s one of the things that I have just been blown away. So I grew up as a pastor’s kid, went to Bible college, went to seminary, like… Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — …biblical, like good, solid biblical teaching is such a huge priority for me. Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — And the thing that I think has been unique is that Chris has a way of communicating with those who have never been in church and and helping them to to see a clear picture of who Jesus is and challenging the deep disciples. Those who’ve been following Jesus their whole life. And yet, man… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Sarah Hooley — …the way that he brings light to scripture and, and even just like points out some, like, this is what it means to live this out. Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — That has made such a big difference. And then, so we really have had this, this drawing of, of those who have been followers… Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — …who then can invest in those who are new believers. But also we have, and it and it is beautiful, like a really dynamic worship time that is incredible. And one of the things that’s unique about it is it’s because we’re multi-ethnic, you can’t just go in one kind of genre of music, like it really is a blend. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Sarah Hooley — And so there’s something about it that um it it’s not all of anyone’s preferences, but you’re like, oh man, like I love this part of it. And then, well, this part’s new and different, but okay, I can I can get on board with it. And so I think those that combination, um but there’s there’s another factor and that’s, that really is in the culture that’s been set in how we are a welcoming church. Sarah Hooley — And so our connections director is somebody who came to faith in our church. So she she started following Jesus, like she had no church background whatsoever, started following Jesus, um started really growing in her discipleship. Her name is Victoria. And it it has been such a beautiful thing to see how she has has such a heart for Jesus and heart for others. And so she’s continued to invest in her team… Rich Birch — It’s great. Sarah Hooley — …in like, how do we make people feel welcome from the beginning? How do we not just say hello and let them walk by, but like really see people? Sarah Hooley — And she has really invested in her connection team on like, how is that an opportunity for discipleship? And so one of the things is you can you can join our greet team. You can join our parking lot team. You can join our coffee team and not be a believer. But the heart behind it is like, is you’re still investigating who Jesus is. Like we hope that you’re rubbing shoulders with someone who is following after him. Rich Birch — Yeah, make some friends, right? Yeah, absolutely. Sarah Hooley — And you have those conversations and that relationship has grown um through that. And you’re you get a picture of of who Jesus is. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — And so um like there there it’s just this multifaceted thing that has happened um that really is like when you come, you’re like man, I want to be a part of this. And so we have like, that’s the crazy thing. We have people who are not followers of Jesus inviting their friends, Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%. That’s great. Sarah Hooley — …like new church is better than the club for real. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s great. Sarah Hooley — Like they’re inviting their friends to come and… Rich Birch — So good. Sarah Hooley — …and be a part of this because there’s just something happening here. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Okay, let’s talk about the discipleship issue. So ah you didn’t say this, I said it, but one of the problems with the church in general is a lot of our discipleship systems assume a fairly high level of actually understanding of scripture. And our church shares a similar heartbeat. We’ll normally see, one of the things a new year guest come through in our church. We don’t ask them a lot, but one of the questions we do ask is for them to describe their kind of faith background before they came. And we’re consistently above 50%. It’s usually 60, 75% of people would describe themselves as something that we would label as unchurched. Rich Birch — And so I understand the discipleship problem. In lots of churches it just you just assume people know stuff and they grow closer to Jesus, but that’s not the case. So how are you helping move people towards being fully discipled followers of Jesus? What does that look like for City Church? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, so we we do, we have loved using Alpha for for those who really still are in that questioning phase and like they’re not even sure. And like they may not, they might may not feel comfortable coming to City Church, but they would come to somebody’s house and walk through Alpha. So that’s been really great for those who are kind of trying to still discover who Jesus is. Sarah Hooley — But for specific discipleship, because we were realizing, man, there’s just some some gaps here, Chris decided to launch a 15-week discipleship course for young men specifically. Rich Birch — Love it. Sarah Hooley — And we really saw, like we are we are a pretty young church. I mean, always have been, but that there was some some pretty serious gaps in and not only like, what does it mean to follow Jesus, but even what does it mean like what does it mean to be a godly man? And so wanting to have, to bring alongside some intentional mentors and people who can invest in these young men. Sarah Hooley — So um he invited people, but it was a very high accountability, high expectation sort of class. They meet at 6 a.m. on Thursday mornings. Rich Birch — Yeah. Wow. Sarah Hooley — That is not something everybody wants to sign up for. It was… Rich Birch — Yeah, no, not every guy wants to do that. I can say that. Sarah Hooley — No, it is it is a huge sacrifice. Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — And he said, this is going to require a lot of you. Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — And they actually have a crazy. Like if you are, if anyone is late, any single person is late, even five seconds, the whole group does pushups together… Rich Birch — Oh, no. Yeah. Okay, that’s cool. Sarah Hooley — …and not in a shaming way, but in a like, Hey, we’re inviting you to something great. Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — And part of, part of following Jesus is is it’s going to need incorporate discipline in your life. And so we have, we are called to have discipline. And so we’re going to really keep you accountable to this. Sarah Hooley — And so he does um he he talks through, like what does it mean to be a godly man? Talks about identity, talks about discipline, talks about integrity, purity, humility, servanthood. So he’ll do a ah teaching, and then they break off into groups with two leaders. So each group usually has about six six guys who are participants and two leaders who are older men in the church who have um that Chris has identified and recruited. And then they have a small group time. Sarah Hooley — So It has been so incredible to see how God is working, not only through his teaching, but really through that accountability… Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — …and like digging into what does this look like in our lives? And, and then those leaders are, are following up with them and encouraging them throughout the week. They, they do, they, they challenge, they come up with their own challenges. And as like, okay, we’re going to memorize this passage of scripture. And then they, then they like, all right, how did you, did you memorize this? Most of these guys have never memorized scripture in their lives. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Sarah Hooley — And so, even though some of those practices have been really incredible. And he he calls the class Act Like Men. And it really is so, and he makes it very clear, this is not about talking about what what is the difference between a man and a woman. This is talking about what’s the man and a boy. Sarah Hooley — Like we are calling you to be godly men and intentionally calling you up to to live out as godly men, not selfish boys. And so that, that has been beautiful. There was about, um, I think he had about 60 participants the first time he he ran it… Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — …with 25 leaders. And then this next, um, this heat currently they’re they’re walking through it right now and there’s 100 guys and 30 leaders. Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — It also requires, and they have to pay $100 and that goes right back into them. Like it’s for some resources that they are given. But again, it gives that like, hey, this is a high threshold. This isn’t just a casual thing. Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — They also cannot miss more than three sessions. If they do, they are asked to step away and if they can join again in a future time. Rich Birch — Take it again or whatever. Yeah. Sarah Hooley — So super high high high… Rich Birch — And is it the idea that it’s going to rotate like kind of a couple seasons a year or something like that? How what what’s the thinking on that? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like how often are you going to run it or what’s that? What’s that look like? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. So, so what we’ve done so far is, um, the men’s course is in the fall. And then, um, after last, last fall, the first time that, that Chris did it, there was such an out, like lot of the wives and the girlfriends and the people who were just connected with these guys, they were like, man, this has been so incredible. Like, what do you have for women? Like, when are we going to have our, our course? Sarah Hooley — And so that really sparked. And I was like, I’m too busy to do this right now, but like, I can’t not do it. So, um my kids, pastor, and I developed Be Bold Women’s, which was a complimentary course for women. And so the men is in the fall and the women starts in January. And we go through the spring and do kind of a similar, we follow a lot of the same topics, although we did choose some different ones, a couple of specific one… Rich Birch — Sure. Sarah Hooley — …that we felt really convicted that, like we do one of our lessons is on emotions and like, what is a healthy, godly way to approach and process, and how are emotions a part of our life? We also talk about community. So there’s just a couple of different topics that we walk through with the women. Sarah Hooley — We also incorporated women’s conference as a part of it that we then opened up to the rest of the church. So everyone in the church could come to the conference. We had our own people speaking at it, our own worship team leading worship. And we had about 300 women at this conference. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s great. Sarah Hooley — And it was just, it was a great start, like jumpstart to our time together in the course, but then also with our larger community. Rich Birch — There’s a lot there I’d love to ask questions about. So my impression of City Church just looking in, don’t know your church well, but follow online. And, you know, I don’t get the vibe from you guys that there’s like, I don’t know, like an overly machismo kind of like, you know, ah like in a negative way. Like, you know, you know you know what I mean? There’s some churches out there. You’re like, okay, they’re like a little too much into the man/woman thing. Sarah Hooley — Uh-huh. Rich Birch — And, and I don’t know how to say that nicely and not like step on people’s toes. I don’t get that vibe from you guys, but this, but you’ve, you’ve obviously taken, taken a gendered approach. Can you unpack that a little bit? Help me understand how is that it’s obviously been super helpful. So, but just kind of talk through that issue. Help me understand that. What’s that look like for you guys? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we really saw their there just was a need to have those intentional conversations um really of older men investing in younger men, and older women investing in younger women. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good. Sarah Hooley — And so um there are things that, there are conversations that you can have when it’s just men, that you add one woman into that mix and it’s gonna change some of those conversations. Rich Birch — Sure. Sarah Hooley — And some of the things that, especially when it comes to kind of the harder accountability parts of of those conversations, it’s going it’s just gonna look differently. If if somebody’s trying to impress somebody else, like that’s going to be an issue. Sarah Hooley — But I think, I think really, even though we’re not a overly like machismo, there’s, that’s still a part of our culture. Rich Birch — Sure. Sarah Hooley — And so I think Chris really wanted to be sure that he, he tackled that kind of toxic masculinity approach. Rich Birch — Yep. Sarah Hooley — And, and like, that is not biblical masculinity. Rich Birch — No. Sarah Hooley — Like this, this idea of, you know, I’m the man. And we’re, but like, that’s not what, and and so really continuing to call them back to that, that being a true man is not the world’s version of, of power and money and having the beautiful wife or girlfriend. It really is about following Jesus’ example. He is the greatest example of what a godly man looks like. Rich Birch — Yeah. Sarah Hooley — So what does that look like? Rich Birch — Yeah. What’s that look like? Sarah Hooley — So that means humility and servanthood and sacrifice and laying down your life for others. And so how do we live that out? Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good. Sarah Hooley — And then for our women, it it it has been so powerful to be able to have those those deep conversations and um and challenging them to live this out. Sarah Hooley — And you know when you have people who are coming from, like they they don’t have um maybe those older women or men in their lives who have been investing in them and showing them what it looks like to follow Jesus or to live this out. It’s still brand new. And so there’s still, there’s some some space to have those questions be brought. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good. Sarah Hooley — And um like, why shouldn’t I return to this abusive boyfriend? Rich Birch — Right. Yep. Sarah Hooley — Why shouldn’t I like, so like being able to deal with some of those really hard conversations in a really healthy way that that comes back to scripture and comes back to like, this is what God wants for you. Rich Birch — Yeah. Sarah Hooley — And um and it’s and it’s hard, like following Jesus is hard. Like there is nothing easy about that… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Yeah. Sarah Hooley — But it’s so worth it. Rich Birch — Yeah. Sarah Hooley — And I think that being able to put that in front of people. But you know, those are two courses that we have. We have lots of small groups and mid-sized groups and groups that are that are mixed gender. And like there’s some beautiful things from that, too. These two courses specifically are just a little bit unique in in their approach. Rich Birch — That’s good. So as you’ve kind of watched this roll through as an XP, you know, go people go through these experiences, what what kind of changes have you seen in the broader church culture? Like, has there, you know, what have you seen that like, oh, hey, there’s something happening here that that seems to be having a positive impact or negative, I’m assuming there’s positive, that’s been kind of impacting the church culture. Talk to me about that. Sarah Hooley — Yeah, I I you really start to see um just that that growth, the idea that this is, you know, that that view of discipleship that’s a long obedience in the same direction. That is what we are are experiencing. You know, with so many people who are new believers, there are some great breakthrough moments and that is worth celebrating, but it is a long process. And so um I think really being able to come alongside and and watch watch those who are like, they were, they’re excited about Jesus. They’re pumped. They’re going lift their hands and worship. They’re going to be like, join the team. But to go beyond that to, okay, what does this actually look like in my life? And to see them begin to make changes in how they actually live that out. um That they’re not just, okay, this is my Sunday thing. And then I go and I do my weekly thing, um but truly changing. And that like that’s profound. It’s profound to see God work in such powerful ways. Sarah Hooley — And again, it’s not it’s never overnight, like there’s overnight breakthroughs, but it’s always a process. And I think that that like watching the the development of these courses is like there’s gonna be things you’re confronting in week one. And then you might still be confronting in week 10. You might still be confronting in week 15. But there’s there’s growth. And there’s um it doesn’t mean that they’ve been able to overcome everything, but you you can see that that change in them. And that draws people. Sarah Hooley — And so I think that we we’ve been able so to so clearly see even just the growth in the number of guys who who joined the course the first time and then the growth in the second second time through that people are hearing about it and being like, I want to be a part of this. Sarah Hooley — Like I saw what it did in my friend’s life. And like, that’s like, I know it’s 6am, but it’s worth it. I’m going to make the sacrifice. I’m going to be a part of it. And so I think that that that kind of invitation to discipleship where you see what the effect it’s having. And then that brings others in. And they’re like, I want what he has. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Sarah Hooley — Like, I, I’ve, I know who Jesus is, but I, Idon’t want it just to be a yeah, I know who Jesus is. I want to actually know Jesus. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. Friends that are listening in. I one of the one of the changes I for sure have seen in people who are arriving at our churches is, this is a problem when you’ve been at this long enough, like decades ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, people did kind of just stumble into church. Like that actually did happen, but that’s not happening today. Rich Birch — People, when they arrive, they’re they’re arriving with real questions and are looking for, they’re not looking for us, they’re not looking for our ideas, they want Jesus and they wanna know what that looks like. So I love this this idea of calling people to something That is a little more, you know, that’s, it’s not just the like, well, we’re going to to make it super easy. That’s not what it’s about. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Right. Yeah. Rich Birch — I think makes a lot of sense. Well, I want to pivot to it just a totally different conversation. As we were getting ready for this, one of the things that caught my attention, and you’re a humble leader, Jesus has formed your life. So like you didn’t lead off with like your attendance numbers and all that. You talked about growth, but you didn’t really go there. What what are you averaging right now? Attendance wise, where are you at? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we’re about 2,500 to 2,600 right now. Rich Birch — Okay. And how many full-time staff do you have as as a team? Sarah Hooley — Oh, we have seven full-time staff. Now, we do have some part-time roles that are high level… Rich Birch — Sure. Sarah Hooley — …but we are a skeleton staff. Rich Birch — Yes. Okay. So to put that in context, like, I, this is why want to hear more about this. How, how are you doing that? So to put make some context that people are listening in, um there’s a kind of a well kind of oiled benchmark out there that says churches should really shoot for 1 to 75 attendees and staff. And, you know, ah really great churches are maybe one to a hundred. Like that would be amazing if you could get that. I think the math on you guys is one to like 350 or something like that. Sarah Hooley — Yep. Rich Birch — Even if it’s like, okay, those those other equivalents, even if they end up being say you have another three full-time people in all those part-time. So you’re 10 full-time equivalents. That’s still like one to 250. So like, this is a significant lesson, friends. We need to learn from. Rich Birch — So it’s like, I really just want to say, talk. Like what systems and philosophies make that happen? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Rich Birch — How do you, you know, how are you able to make that happen? Talk us through that. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Well, we are trying to hire. So there are some roles that we definitely know that we need. Rich Birch — Yes. You got a long ways to go though. Even if you doubled your staff, you still would be like one to 125, which is still very high. You know, that’s great. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. And this has been one of the unique things about being a multi-ethnic church and a multi-ethnic church that’s reaching new believers. The the the financial support, it takes longer. Like financial discipleship, it’s a process. And and in a um you know within our community, there’s a significant like where we our church specifically is, there’s a significant number of people who are below the poverty line. And so that just means that where our budget is not going to be as large. Sarah Hooley — But so like we have always, and I think part of it is going from that church plant model to even having an established church. Like we’ve always had to be scrappy. Like you always have had to, like I started as a volunteer and I wanted to do a women’s conference. And then someone came and said, I heard that you’re leading the women’s ministry. And I was like, what? Like I didn’t, I just wanted to lead this women’s conference. Sarah Hooley — But just the the way that, um you know, we have continued to to philosophically want to equip the body to be the ministers. That it’s not just, oh, we can just hire somebody to do that. But for every staff person being so intentional about choosing staff members who can be equippers, who are not looking to just do ministry, but who are looking to equip others to do the ministry. And so those who can develop and be leaders of leaders. And that that really has been a part of our heart um in the beginning out of necessity. But also as we’ve continued to grow, um we’ve found there’s just been incredible fruit, because it calls the whole church body into being a part of what’s going on. Sarah Hooley — And so there is nothing more powerful and significant than saying like, yeah, I am I am a significant like participant, I am leading within this church in in a significant way that creates such buy-in. And so like that has really made a difference in in, I think, our church culture and and in just people so staying with us and saying like, man, there’s there’s there’s something happening here. I wanna be a part of it. And um being identified in like, given the opportunity to lead in those ways. And so um we are very, we are slow to hire because we’re kind of a unique, um we have a unique church culture and unique church body… Rich Birch — For sure. Sarah Hooley — …and we want our staff to reflect our church body and to to have buy-in. So I would, so the majority of our staff really are people who have come from the church body itself. So we we only have had very few outside hires um because we know that they understand who we are, they they understand kind of what we’ve been called to do. Sarah Hooley — And so that has been the most, like we have one full-time kids pastor… Rich Birch — Wow. Sarah Hooley — …for 400 children. And she has an associate who’s also very high level and she’s incredible too. Um, but they have done such an incredible job of identifying, okay, within our kids ministry, within our volunteers, who are those people who, who can lead others and who have a heart for developing others. Sarah Hooley — And so, um, so they’ve broken down the different areas and they have leads over each of those individual areas where they’re doing some of the scheduling. So like identifying those administrative skills, like people who have people skills as well as administrative skills. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Sarah Hooley — But so the role of our of our kids pastor is to you know set the vision and invest in our leaders. And then they are then the ones who are are working through some of those logistics of what it looks like when it comes to staffing or when it comes to volunteers um and being fully like, oh, it’s a whole lot of children. We have a lot of kids. Rich Birch — Yes, that’s amazing. I’d I’d love to double click on some of that there. So this idea of leaders of leaders does not surprise me that, um you know, I it’s like one of these when I heard this, I’m like, I don’t even know anything about this. But I know that you the only way you get to that kind of ratio is you’ve empowered volunteers to actually lead things. Rich Birch — There’s a humbling thing you could do. Church leaders that are listening in do it. Do a giant org chart. Spend two hours and do a giant org chart on a whiteboard. Like literally draw out who is who leads who all the way down to every role in the church and then circle the people that are staff. And oftentimes what you find is there are no leaders of leaders that are volunteers. And they’re just that that’s a that’s a key distinction. How do we get and and how do we keep our staff being Ephesians 4 leaders, people who equip the saints to do the work? Sarah Hooley — Yes. Rich Birch — So give me some of the telltale signs that you that you see in volunteers that, hey, this person is could lead at a high level. And what does the equipping look like? How are you helping them step into that? Sarah Hooley — Yeah, we really do view leadership as discipleship. And so, um, so even for our volunteers, we want to identify people, for them to step into a leadership role like that, that relationship with Jesus, that that’s strong connection to to him is is key. Sarah Hooley — So like that is first and for foremost across across all of our leadership teams. So even though I mentioned earlier that we have some of our serve teams that you can join the team and not be a believer, but for the people who are leading those people, we want them to be following Jesus. Sarah Hooley — And then just looking for those who also love people and have that heart for like, I want to have the conversations that, you know, something is is going on in someone’s life and they’re having a hard time, I’m going to follow up with them during the week. And so um so that love for Jesus, that love for people in some of these roles, it it is some administrative ability. Like, can you handle scheduling people? Like there’s there’s just like, are you able to complete some of those things, some of the doing aspects of ministry? Sarah Hooley — But even within our within our high level leader volunteer leaders, like they’re actually then finding other volunteers who are are doing some of those roles as well. So I think that that has been a process. So it’s looking at who who do we have in front of us? Like who are the people who are like bought in? They see the mission. They’re they’re passionate about what we’re doing. They care about what we’re doing. um And then inviting them into that next step of leadership. Sarah Hooley — A lot of times it’s we kind of give them a chance to kind of test it out first before just throwing them to the wolves so that they can kind of see like like shadowing somebody who already is currently doing something like that to get their feet wet, to kind of understand the the scope of the role. We don’t ever want to ask somebody to to step into a role that they aren’t, that they’re like, I don’t have the capacity for this. And so, but there’s there’s lots of development still along the way of like conversations of like, of of our actual staff members, checking in with them and helping them to like navigate problems and helping them to to think through like how to process, um you know, that they even are invited to bring feedback of like, hey, here are some things that we’re seeing, like what’s a way that we can then approach that together? So like really they they have a great voice into into how things are being run. Rich Birch — That’s good. One of the tensions that happens in a lot of churches is staff, our staff start to think like the kind of important people are people who have full-time staff that report to them. There’s like this insidious pull towards, I’m going to build my little kingdom. And like this is really common, like lots of churches struggle with that. It can be difficult. Rich Birch — How are you developing your, particularly the the culture with your staff team to ensure that they stay focused on leading volunteers rather than, you know, just hiring people? Like, let’s just hire somebody. How do we, how do how are you what are you doing there? Beyond the like, well, we can’t afford it. There’s got to be something else you’re doing to try to help them, you know, develop that. Sarah Hooley — Yeah, feeling missed out on the budget is really helpful. Rich Birch — Well, because, well, and yeah, but the but my pushback would be friendly pushback as as one leader to another is like that resource things are going to get sorted out. And it’s going to come to a time where you have resources to be able to do that. And it could be very tempting to say, let’s just go quadruple the size of our staff. So how are you ensuring that the culture isn’t going to do that? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. And so much of that is through through our coaching, through the way that we talk about this. This is something like we have these calibrating conversations all the time of of this is who we are and this is what we’re about. And this is what it looks like to lead here. That we um and and that And to be totally candid, like that has been a challenge where we had a staff person and as we grew, um could not make that transition of from doing to leading others and and delegating. Sarah Hooley — And so like that that is a challenge of, and and just thinking like, oh man, all we need to do is just add more staff and then I would be okay. And instead of really recognizing like, no, our our heart behind this is inviting the church to be the church. That that, Letting them know that that priesthood of all believers, like we are all called um to do ministry. Sarah Hooley — Ministry is not just for those who have a degree or those who have a title. Like we are called into ministry. And so keeping that before our our leaders and our staff so that they are keeping it before the the people that they’re calling into these volunteer leader roles. Sarah Hooley — And I will say like those who are the volunteers, like they, they’re excited. They’re excited about like, man, like you just invited me into this position. Like you’ve asked, you’ve seen, you saw something in me and asked me to, um to lead in this way and to serve in this way. And it’s, it’s a privilege to do that. But it is also like continuing to put that before us. Like we we are investing in our people. Sarah Hooley — Now, some of our future staff members might come from those who are volunteer leaders. And like and like that’s a beautiful thing because we’re like, man, I already know, I can see how you would operate in this role and how you would fit on our team and how you would keep how you you do get the culture and what what we’re trying to do. And I think that that’s that’s really a beautiful thing. Sarah Hooley — But it is it is a lot of conversation, a lot of coaching, and just a reminder of like, and I think part of it too is is realizing like, we can’t do everything. And so being very intentional to not be overly programmed. To be very clear about, we’re going do these things, like these very simple. Rich Birch — Right. Sarah Hooley — And so that’s where it’s like, it seems so simple. It seems so basic, but we’re going do these simple, basic things and do them faithfully. And um and then, yeah, see what God does. Rich Birch — Trust God for the results. Yeah, that’s fantastic. Yeah. And listen, you know it makes sense that you’ll end up hiring some people because it’s like that’s a little bit of a crazy ah you know ratio. And you know I think that’ll be that’ll be a challenge ahead to keep that focused as you add those people. And it’s not unreasonable to say to your team like, oh, yeah, like we probably should add a few people. Rich Birch — But to still champion at the end of the day, I think that’s like there’s a key piece there that you mentioned. It’s like this idea of championing the people who have been able to make that transition. And I’ve like, I got us like hey, ah it’s about developing leaders and I want to make that happen. And I know that might be messy and there’s other problems with that, but that’s you know that’s good. Rich Birch — It’s been a fantastic conversation. For people who are listening in today who might feel that kind of like, oh my goodness, we’re under-resourced, we’re you know are outnumbered, we don’t have enough people. Help us think through, kind of talk to us a little bit from an even mindset or how we lead point of view to kind of lead from abundance rather than from scarcity. Because a part of what I don’t hear you saying is like, oh, woe is me. Rich Birch — Like you’re like, no, this is just what God’s called us to in this season. We’re going to make it happen. And God’s doing a great thing. So try to encourage us, yeah help us think that through. Sarah Hooley — Yeah. Well, I would, I mean, I would first of all say you’re not alone. So if you feel, if you do feel overwhelmed and outnumbered and under-resourced, like you’re not alone. And so I think that that is is helpful to be like, man, I’m not. And I think that’s where like even having podcasts like this, where you’re able to hear from others, we’re like, oh, man, OK, we’re in this together. We are all doing the mission that God has called us to. And there are challenges that come with that. And and that can be really discouraging and hard. And yet, like, I think when we can have that kind of. loaves and fishes mindset of like the disciples, they could not feed those people. Like they could not fit fill all the needs that were before them. But Jesus could. Sarah Hooley — And so if we can be faithful to say, okay, God, what do we have? What do we have? Like, what do we have in front of us? And how do we use that for your glory? And what what does that look like? What what are the things that we need to like have that laser focus on um so that we can then continue to see what you are going to do with with what we bring. Sarah Hooley — And and I think that there is that reliance on God to um to say like, you’re the one who does the work. Like this is not, and I think that helps us to like, it takes away that that pride and also that just overwhelming feeling feeling of sometimes failure when it’s, it’s not, when we realize that it’s not all on me… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good. Sarah Hooley — …like this is not like my responsibility is to be faithful and continuing to be faithful, to follow what God has called me to do. And that means, I mean, that means working hard. That means best practices. That means learning from others, but I am not responsible for the the end result. So how do I just be intentional and faithful with what God has given me? Sarah Hooley — And, and, and I think too, I think it’s really important to, to find others who are also in the journey with you. Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — That you can, that not that you just get together and complain, but that you can really come alongside each other and encourage one another. And that, That has been one of the most significant things that I have found in in stepping into this role. I got connected with a women executive pastor cohort of women all over the country who are leading in this in similar roles. Sarah Hooley — And being able to just ask questions of other church leaders, being able to say, will you pray for me? Like, I’m going through something really difficult right now. Will pray for me? That has encouraged me personally to be able to keep pressing on when it does feel overwhelming or it does feel like, man, the the task is too great for me. To be reminded and to have other pastors in like my corner and in my ear saying, remember who God is and remember what he’s called you to. Rich Birch — That’s good. Sarah Hooley — And so I think that that is just, it’s, if we can keep that in view and that in, in that mindset in view, that that God is so much greater than the most difficult person at your church who is louder than all of the others. And, um and God is greater than the the greatest problems that you are facing and the, the difficulties that you’re walking through. And, and so like, I think just looking for those, those things. Rich Birch — So good. Sarah, this has been such a helpful conversation. I really appreciate you being here today and investing in us. And it’s fantastic, super encouraging and lots of good nuggets in there. I got pages of notes here. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Sarah Hooley — Yeah. We I mean we’re on um Instagram and Facebook. We’re forthecity.com is our church website. We are not on TikTok yet. We’re not that cool. I don’t know. Someday we’ll we’ll get there. Rich Birch — Nice. That’s fun. Sarah Hooley — But yeah, that’s that’s the primary way. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today. Sarah Hooley — Thank you so much.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe, a firm that partners with churches across the country to design and build facilities that amplify ministry impact. With more than 15 years of experience in church architecture, project management, and ministry leadership, Aaron and his team help churches navigate complex building challenges while staying focused on mission. Is your church facing growing pains—crowded lobbies, full parking lots, or overwhelmed kids' spaces—but unsure how to move forward? Aaron shares practical insights on how to approach facility planning strategically, align vision with budget, and avoid the costly mistakes that can slow down momentum. Overcoming the overwhelm. // When churches consider expansion or renovation, leaders often feel paralyzed by the process. Questions about cost, zoning, design, and disruption quickly pile up. Too often, churches jump straight to hiring an architect before defining their real needs. Instead, churches should first clarify what's working, what's broken, and what's next before anyone draws plans. Start with scope and budget. // The two guardrails of every successful project are scope (what you're building) and budget (what you can spend). Aaron warns that skipping this step often leads to beautiful drawings that churches can't afford. Risepointe begins with a Needs Analysis, an on-site deep dive into the church's DNA, culture, and challenges. The team listens to staff, studies how people use the building, and identifies bottlenecks—whether it's the children's hallway, lobby congestion, or limited parking. Only then do they define the right-size project and realistic cost range. The power of early engagement. // Most churches wait too long to start planning. Zoning approvals, fundraising, and construction all take longer than expected, especially in urban areas. Waiting too long forces rushed design work, unclear budgets, and lost ministry opportunities. You don't have to build everything at once. Start with a plan that captures the next few wins—like improving your lobby or kids' check-in—while preparing for long-term growth. Knowing when it's time. // Aaron says early warning signs include maxing out your primary service, overflowing kids' spaces, and parking lots at capacity. Many pastors misjudge space needs because they see the auditorium every Sunday but rarely experience the parking or early childhood chaos firsthand. Evaluating your entire Sunday experience—entry to exit—reveals where capacity problems really begin. Aligning buildings with ministry models. // Every church facility reflects a ministry philosophy—but those philosophies evolve. Where there used to be 40-year ministry cycles, now they are closer to 10 to 20. Churches shaped by the seeker-sensitive movement, for example, are now adapting to relational, community-driven models. Spaces that once emphasized rows and stages now need more environments for conversations, mentoring, and connection. A free resource for leaders. // To help churches begin the conversation, Aaron's team created a free guide called “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build.” The resource walks through key questions every church should answer before launching a building project—from clarifying vision and budget to preparing for change. You can download it and schedule a free consultation at risepointe.com/unseminary. To learn more about Risepointe's work helping churches align facilities with mission, visit risepointe.com/unseminary or follow Risepointe on Instagram for inspiration and project stories. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, across the country, we keep hearing about churches that are growing and we’re seeing swelling attendance and that’s good. Some of that is like a platinum problem though. It generates other issues that we have to think about. And so what what I did was pull on a friend of mine, Aaron Stanski, he’s the founder and CEO of Risepointe. He’s got 15 plus years of church design, leadership and project management and experience. Rich Birch — If you don’t know Risepointe, where have you been? You’re living under a rock. They’re church architects and designers. They have years of experience working with churches like yours, schools and nonprofits, and they offer a wide range wide variety of services, including architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, and so much more. Aaron is, I like Aaron not just because he actually has got incredible skills. His team’s got incredible skills, but he really actually wants to help churches like you. And so Aaron, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I’m glad to be here, Rich. Rich Birch — It’s going to be good. Give give people, you’ve been on a couple of times… Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and but give us again, for folks that haven’t heard, the Aaron Stanski, you know, a couple bullet points. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — What did I miss? What do you want to fill in the picture? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, ah you know the quick story is grew up in ministry. My dad was a pastor growing up, planted a we planted a church in Boston when I was a kid. Went to school for engineering, worked for Harley Davidson Motorcycles, did big projects, project management and stuff for them for a while. And then felt called to ministry. Aaron Stanski — So left Harley Davidson, was on staff with Cru for a couple years doing college ministry before I jumped on staff at a fast growing multi-site church here in Chicago. So loved that, loved being part of that ministry team. And then, of course, we went through a big building project. So got to roll up my sleeves on the on the church staff side of things and hire architects and engineers and AV consultants and really kind of combine my my engineering mind and my ministry heart. And so absolutely love that process. And so, yeah, I’ve been helping churches now for the last 15, 16 years. It’s been an absolute blast. Rich Birch — So good. Well, the the kind of person I want to have in mind today, and so friends, if if you’re listening in, if this sounds a little bit like you, you’re going to want to pay close attention. So I’m thinking about that church, you know, the leader that looks around, they maybe have got, maybe they got two services. Rich Birch — They’re looking around and they’re seeing, ooh, they feel like maybe their growth ah is starting to create some pinch points. Maybe it’s in kids. Maybe it’s in adults. Maybe it’s their lobby. It’s they look around and they’re like, man, I just I feel like our facility might be holding us back a little bit. um And because I do bump into this in churches all the time. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — And there’s like, there can be like a certain amount of anxiety and fear around, gosh, when do I, what do I do? So when you talk to pastors, what do you know notice as one of the kind of most common point of confusion when it comes to starting or pulling the trigger, moving on with a building project, expansion project, try to improve things. Where are we getting this wrong? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think ah like one, the whole process itself can just be completely overwhelming. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — Like immediately you’re confronted with, ah oh my goodness, like what’s the right solution? What is the, ah what is the town or the, you know, the jurisdiction going to allow us to do? What is this all going to cost? Where are we going to do church in the meantime if we’re having to fix this building or add on to it? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — I mean, immediately all of these questions start to kind of well up and it can become ah really overwhelming for a lot of churches. Rich Birch — So good. So when when we step back, is there any one of those that you think in particular is like a piece of the puzzle that is the most kind of mysterious or is the most um confusing as as you that you bump into regularly with leaders? Aaron Stanski — I mean, I think the most confusing is probably like, what’s the right solution? Rich Birch — Okay. Yep. Aaron Stanski — A lot of times it’s a combination of like, you know, we feel like we’re out of space, so we have to add on. But if we do that, we’re going to have to modify what we already have. And what we have is old, or there’s some maintenance on it that we haven’t gotten around to. And like, what can we do in this space? And so actually the the right solution is is probably one of the most difficult things to kind of imagine for a lot of pastors. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And, you know, then right behind that is like. What’s it going to cost? Right. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — I mean, you know, for the last four or five years, we’ve seen a lot of inflation. We’ve seen a lot of different things happening, like with pricing and stuff. And so what used to be a pretty easy calculation for us as churches now, it feels like it’s a lot foggier as far as like what what things are just going to cost. Rich Birch — Yeah. So I’ve heard church leaders at this this juncture, they start thinking like, okay, like we got to get an architect. Get me the architect, the the person that designed this building 25 years ago. Where are they? Are they still in business? And, you know, we start going down that road. I’m not even really sure what an architect does. Like, I obviously, you you draw things. But, like, help us understand what what is the piece of the puzzle that, like, an architect brings to the table. Aaron Stanski — Right. Rich Birch — And I know that’s, like, a subset of what you guys do. Pretend that I’m, like, super dumb because it’s probably not actually worry about pretending too much there. Explain what that is. What is that service? And is that actually what we need at this juncture? Is that the first question? Like, get the architect. Come in here. Explain that whole thing. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, well, I think we have to be careful. Sometimes hiring an architect is like picking up a hammer, right? And for a lot of architects who were, you know, traditionally trained and might have like one sort of, you know, viewpoint of the world. Like their job is to come in and draw something new um that’s going to sort of solve your problem. The challenge with that is a lot of times that architect is just looking for ah one type of solution, ah which is build you something new, add something on. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And they’re looking at it very narrowly through the lens of what the solution is going to be. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Aaron Stanski — And a lot of times they’re not, you know, kind of able to kind of step back and take a look at strategically and say, okay, before we start drawing plans and blueprints and some of those sorts of things, let’s really talk about like what’s going really well at your church and how are we going to amplify what you’re already doing well? How are we going to add some, you know, some pieces around it? And then of course, how are we going to fix some of the big, you know, some of the bigger problems? Aaron Stanski — So an architect technically, right? I mean, it’s a licensed professional. Their job is to lead your organization through the process from the very beginning all the way through the stages of design. Their job is to make sure that the solution is aligned with your with who you are as an organization and your budget. And they’re supposed to help all the way through construction, making sure that it gets built the way that it was designed and and that it gets you know all the questions get answered and that it’s ultimately safe. Aaron Stanski — So that’s what an architect does. I think the I think the thing that we miss a little bit on the front end is in order for the architect to start, we really need kind of need to know what the scope of the work is and the budget first. Rich Birch — So good. Okay. Okay. Good. Aaron Stanski — If we don’t put those two guardrails on the left and the right-hand side, we’re really missing out. The left-hand side should be scope. The right-hand side should be budget. And we should nail those down before we get going into designing. Rich Birch — Okay. I want to unpack that because I know, I actually texted you recently. Friends, getting you behind the scenes a little bit. I had a friend of mine, they had done exactly what we talked about here. They were like, we went and hired an architect to help with this thing. And they came back with a ginormous number um that was like, I would say a factor, you know, three or four times what I thought. And what do I know? I don’t know anything. Rich Birch — And I actually think it was these guardrails where they went off off on it. They didn’t start with scope and budget. They started with, hey, here’s a problem, architect – solve it for us. And they came back with this, you know, very incredible initial drawing and all that. Rich Birch — Talk us through how do we nail down scope and budget from the beginning? Talk us through what does that look like? Aaron Stanski — Yeah, so I would say, ah you know, you want to find a ministry partner who’s going to come in and really kind of help ah flesh out some of those pieces, really understand what’s working well, what’s not working well, what’s missing, where do we have to clarify what it is that we’re doing in order so to sort of establish that. And and there’s ah there’s a lot of great partners out there who can help you do that. But you’re really looking for someone in the building/design/construction space who has experience who has a lot of experience, honestly, with churches and understands what it means to, you know, serve people who’ve been part of your church for 20, 30 years and keep them on mission and disciple them up, as well as welcoming people who are walking into your doors for the very first time. Aaron Stanski — So at Risepointe, we walk through a process called The Needs Analysis, where we get on site with, you know, a church for an entire day and understand their DNA and really understand what’s working and not working and stuff. And we start with that so that we can sketch out some ideas and some concepts and stuff around what is the what is the scope of work that’s going to solve the problem or fix the lid or add the seats that we need? And what’s the budget that we feel like God’s calling us to spend as a church in order to go do that? And we want to start with that before we jump into full architecture. Rich Birch — Okay, so sidebar question. Is it possible for someone to help us at this early kind of scoping phase without doing some sort of on-site? Like, can I just call an architect and say, hey, here’s the problem. I need to add a thousand seats. How much is that going to cost? And then they go away and come back with a number. Or, or you know, are is there, yeah, can they do that? Talk us through that. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can. I mean, you can call up Risepointe and I’ll get on the phone with you. The, and, but there’s going to be a range, right? Rich Birch — Okay. Aaron Stanski — And I can say like, Hey, here’s the last 10 churches that we’ve done a thousand seat auditoriums at… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …and here’s kind of the range and stuff. The problem with shortcutting to that is you miss a lot of things, right? Each jurisdiction is different, like how the civil engineering works, the parking requirements and stuff. Rich Birch — Right. Good. Yep. Aaron Stanski — And those really affect the budget. And so we want to understand those first. And the second thing is, I mean, every church that we work with is and incredibly unique in the people that they’re reaching, and the values that those people have and whether they’re de-churched or unchurched and and who they’re running into and and stuff. And so really kind of understanding that context is so important um before we jump into, you know, sort of solution. Aaron Stanski — But yeah, I mean, since we work with churches all over the country, I mean, if someone called me up, I could probably, I could probably put my thumb in the air and give them a ah swag on what that might cost. Rich Birch — Yeah. And I would, you know, it’s funny because I’ve, I’ve recommended people have asked me those kinds of questions and I always actually say exactly what, you know, where you led, which is like, you should call my friend Aaron and, but, but what you should do, get on the, do the like free call or whatever, get on the book a time. But I said, you really should do this Needs Analysis thing. Cause the project that you’re facing is always much larger than you think. Rich Birch — And I would rather people take time, invest the resources upfront and time, frankly, to slow down and say let’s actually understand the question we’re asking before we jump to answers, right? Like what because because we could get this thing wrong and actually that gets to this whole idea of how early is too early. My experience has been people wait too long before they engage with someone like you. They they get into like their third service, fourth service. They’re like, oh gosh, people aren’t going to the fifth service. Maybe we have to figure out how to get more space. Talk us about, you know, what mistakes do we make when we wait too long without engaging with someone like you? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I’d say, you know, the thing to keep in mind is that you’re, if you’re the average church that reaches out to Risepointe, you’re somewhere between two and a half and three years away from having any sort of new space. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Okay. Aaron Stanski — And that’s on the short end. We have churches who are bringing new space online five years after they’ve reached out to us because they’re, they live in downtown areas… Rich Birch — Wow. Aaron Stanski — …very challenging jurisdictions and some things like that. Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — And so when we’re thinking about when is the right time, I think, yeah, earlier is definitely better. But we have to be careful ah that we’re strategically spending dollars even on the front end, you know, so that we, you know, we’re getting out of it what we need. Aaron Stanski — As leaders, what questions are we asking that we need answers for in order to determine is it the right time to move forward with a building project? Is it a right time to launch a campus or go multi-site or some things like that? Aaron Stanski — If you wait too long, typically what happens is either we’re we’re rushing through the design process to kind of hit the capital campaign stuff and there’s budget misalignment. All of a sudden we thought it might be this, but now this is the actual budget for what it’s going to work. Aaron Stanski — And I think when that happens, there starts to be some vision confusion. You know, we’re looking at solutions that we kind of rushed through and it doesn’t feel like we really thought all of those things through. And so I think that’s another one. Aaron Stanski — And then I just think, you know, there’s there’s some missed ministry opportunities if if we kind of wait too long. I think a lot of times when we’re planning out, here’s the multiple phases of how we develop this campus and expand it. You know, we miss out on opportunities to go get some smaller things done sooner… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …capture momentum, you you know, fix the welcome center, like invest some dollars in something we know we’re not going to tear down, make it better for guests in a couple months. And we miss out on those things if we don’t have a bigger, more strategic plan. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah, kind of a step back and say, hey, how does this fit into where everything that’s going on? Rich Birch — What would be kind of double clicking on that? What would be some indicators internally that would say, hey, um you know, these things are happening. I should really reach out to Risepointe. What would be some of the things that you would see as telltale signs that it’s now a time to to kind of take this step? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think if we’re, you know, if we’re really pushing towards our, those max numbers at our primary service, I think that’s a, that’s definitely an early indicator. Aaron Stanski — A lot of churches just kind of reach out and say, Hey, okay, here’s, here’s kind of where we’re at. Here’s where the math is at. Like, can you look at this like from a, like how much kids area should we have? How much lobby space should we have? And we can run some quick math for them and say, Hey, you don’t have any other lids. You’re looking good. You, you probably have a few more years of growth in you. Aaron Stanski — So that would be one. You know i think if ah you know we’re starting to talk about ah adding a third or fourth service, it’s probably a little bit too late, but we should probably get on it sooner than later. Aaron Stanski — And then, you know, one of the, one of the other things too, is just kind of paying attention. It’s easy for us on Sundays to stand on the stage and look out and get a pretty good sense of, are there enough seats? Is there space for me here? And like, we look out and we see some empty chairs. Aaron Stanski — Keep in mind that when you’re coming in from the back of the auditorium, it’s a lot harder to see some of those empty chairs. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so what is the percentage? But the other thing is the things that we’re not seeing when more when we’re on stage on Sunday is we’re not seeing the parking lot. We’re not seeing the early childhood wing that’s basically a it’s a it’s a disaster back there. There’s kids running around like crazy. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Aaron Stanski — And so even if we’re ah even if we have enough seats, like or we’re not at the 80 or 90 percent capacity to our primary service. We need to be looking out at some of these other areas and making sure that there’s not a lid somewhere else. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. In fact, I literally just last weekend said that to a church. I was, you know, I was doing a weekend visit where I was on site and all that stuff. And, and it, to me, it felt like the building, the parking, and the kids, and the main auditorium, they, or the adult auditorium, they just didn’t match. It was like they, the three were out of alignment. And I think they had enough kids, but you know, I don’t know. There was, it’s interesting how that can happen. And you know the lead pastor typically is seeing um only the adult room and not you know not anything else. Rich Birch — Early on, you know there’s my experience has been and projects that have been a part of that I would rather spend money as personally as a leader. I’m not saying, friends, if you’re listening in, that you need to necessarily do this. Rich Birch — I would rather spend money on the front end with a designer like you. Because because the joke I’ve made is it’s a lot cheaper to move walls on drawings than it is in in the real world. And I’ve that comes from pain of building stuff… Aaron Stanski — It’s true. Yeah. Rich Birch — …of building stuff, and then being literally I opened up a new facility and then stood there with a kids ministry person. And the kids ministry person was like, oh, I didn’t think it was going to look like this. I was like, oh my goodness, what what are you talking about? Aaron Stanski — Shoot. Rich Birch — Like, we just opened this new facility. Talk us through, like, what’s an investment on the front end to reach out to someone like you? Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — How do you help churches see that hiring someone like you can actually save us resources in the long haul? Talk us through that. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, starting out at the beginning and getting really clear about where we’re going and how we’re going to get there, it really helps us, you know, cart and like make sure we don’t overbuild or underbuild. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — It makes sure that like compared to all the other churches that we’re working with all over the country, that we’re in alignment with where the square footage is at and it’s aligned with how you do ministry locally, how you use these spaces seven days a week. Aaron Stanski — And so it’s it’s really making sure that we’re not overbuilding or underbuilding anywhere because that’s ah you know that’s a huge that’s a huge miss if we do that. And that’s probably one of the biggest cost savings. Aaron Stanski — The other thing is you know during you know during sort of that season of vision and master planning and when we’re talking to our folks about what God’s doing at the church and we’re telling stories of life change, like we’re really kind of laying out a vision for what God is calling us to do as a ministry. And people just naturally have questions around like, like, how is this going to help? And and how is this actually going to help us reach my lost coworker, my lost neighbor? Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And, and so I think, you know, spending the time to do that, really translating sort of the mission and vision into physical space needs and producing some of those renderings that accompany that story. I mean, that’s just a really critical part. Rich Birch — Okay, so let’s double click on that. That’s that I feel like I have been caught in this situation where I get I get like, it’s the hammer and nail thing you you say. Like, I’m I’m pretty sure I know what the solution is. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like, let’s go do this. And I like that what you’re saying is like, hey, we need to take a step back and like actually think through how does this fit in our vision and how’s that all? How do you actually do that? How do you help a leadership team discern what the problem is that they’re really needing to solve, or should be solving, rather than just let’s build a bigger box. Or, I know! We just need 25 new parking spots. Like how do we not jump too quickly to that? What’s that look like? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, it looks like, you know, spending time. Rich Birch — Good. And and, really getting to know them and what makes them unique. Like we have a fantastic set of tools that we use at Risepointe to like really talk about, you know, let’s talk about, uh, outside the walls, right? Like who, who are we called to reach? And, and what does it mean to do ministry in this place that God has uniquely put your church in the geographic area? Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And let’s talk about the tension between this side of town and that side of town. And let’s, you know, let’s wrestle with, you know, some of those issues. And then let’s, and then let’s talk about like, like, man, who are we as a church on our best day? And what does it feel like when we’re like living up to our full potential? Aaron Stanski — And then we even get into some of the things around like, man, what are what are some of the strategic drivers? What’s driving more people hearing about Jesus? What’s working really well? What do you see as opportunities or things that where if you had the right leader or finances that you’d be able to you know, accomplish even more of your mission. Aaron Stanski — And so by starting there and then starting to work down towards, okay, where is your facility aligned with that with that exercise and where is it misaligned? Okay, let’s unpack that a little bit. And then without getting into ah the solution yet, I want to meet like individually with each you know ministry leader… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …talk about what how check-in works and all of those things. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so it’s really sort of this almost like a 360 review of what’s happening between the mission and vision God’s given us, and how are our facilities helping or hindering that mission and vision. Aaron Stanski — And then it just comes down to budget. And so, okay, here are the possible solutions. Here’s what roughly what some of those things are going to cost. And then it’s going to the, going to God in prayer and saying, okay, what are you calling us to do? What are based on these options and trying to figure it out? Rich Birch — I want I want to come back to the budget question in a second. But I’ve I think I probably have stole this off you. I have said to multiple church leaders that like our buildings were built, there was like a philosophical underpinning of the the buildings that we were built with. There was a ministry model that they were built on. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Yeah. Rich Birch — And then there’s been a lag between when we made those decisions, we’ve we built them. Now we’ve been using them for X number of years. And our ministry model may no longer be the same as the building, or probably isn’t actually the same as when the building was built. Rich Birch — What’s your sense on how long that lag time is kind of between the, they they you know, we built something. If we built something more than 10 years ago, you know we probably want to readdress or look at our facilities afresh and say does this actually meet the needs of… Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — Because I feel like so many of us are in like the the cramped shoes that just don’t quite fit they work but they don’t quite fitWhat do you think that lag time is? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, the lag time is getting shorter and shorter. Rich Birch — Okay. Aaron Stanski — It used to be, you know, it probably used to be 40 or 50 years… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …you know, without major ministry model shifts and stuff. Obviously, you know, Willow Creek, North Point, you know, coming onto of the scene in the in the late 90s and stuff really shifted. We have churches all the way up into the 2000s, even into the 2010s that sort of copied the model of the Willow Creeks and some of those things. And I think we’re seeing, you know, we’re seeing the model shifting a lot faster now. Rich Birch — Interesting. Aaron Stanski — I’d say, you know, you know, we’re probably in a faster 10 to 20 year cycle, something like that. But I think we’re coming out of the, you know, the, you know, that model of Willow Creek and North Point and stuff. And we’re, we’re moving into a new season. And it’s kind of exciting for us. Rich Birch — Yeah. Aaron Stanski — I mean, we get to, we get to sit on the front edge of all of that. Churches like in fantastic places, being creative, reaching, you know, people for Christ. And so it’s just interesting to kind of observe some of those things and, um and observe what’s working really well and, and where it we can improve, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah. You’re baiting me. What are those things that you’ve seen that have shifted? There’s got to be, or is that the magic? We got to call Aaron to find out. Aaron Stanski — No, you don’t have to call Aaron. No, I mean, the thing, I mean, like, you know, I heard someone share this with me recently, right? I mean, every Netflix account homepage is different for every person, all billion subscribers or whatever that they have. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — They’re individually tailored to to those individuals. And I know that because when I had a bunch of seventh grade boys spend the night at my house, like my algorithm got so messed up on my Netflix account last weekend. Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Aaron Stanski — But I think there is a shift away from you know some of the bigger, more institutional types of look and feel and trying to get down to, okay, how are we engaging one-on-one with people who are walking in and where they’re at. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — How do we, you know, instead of preach a sermon at them, how do we hear their story? And what does it look like for us to hear their story in in various places, whether that’s a welcome center, whether that’s, ah you know, side by side in the pew, whether that’s in sort of a first steps class. And so there’s a shift on that side of things… Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s interesting. Aaron Stanski — …just like as we look at the next generation and how we engage and reach the next generation. Rich Birch — Okay, I want to loop back on the money question. So for folks that don’t know, a part of what I do is actually help churches with that. And don’t really talk about it publicly, but I do. And, you know, there is this interesting tension that churches often come to this. It’s like we think we’re different than our ourselves. Rich Birch — And that if I was going to go build a new house, I would have to start with, well, how much income do I have? And like, what can the, you know, what can the, you know, what what would the what would the bank give me from a mortgage point of view? Like I start with reality around my finances. But so many churches start with, let’s build this giant thing. And it’s totally disconnected from the from what we could actually afford to either raise or carry long-term. Rich Birch — How much variance can a church bring to a design? Like if they upfront are defining, Hey, like we can afford probably 5 million. I know I’ve got $35 million dollars in dreams or maybe not. That’s, that’s too crazy. I got $15 million dollars in dreams. Is it possible for me to, to actually get that into a tighter box? Help us understand how do we do that? How do we on the front end be realistic with our finances as we’re doing this design thing? Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, I think we have to with open hands, we have to hold out the, you know, the dreams, the vision, you know, the stuff that God’s given us. And we have to prayerfully sort of go through that exercise and say, okay, ah but how much risk do I want to introduce into the organization, like via debt? Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — What what is God actually calling us to do with those things? And we have to be creative in how we and and how we get across the finish line. I think when I when I hear sometimes a senior pastor sharing with me his $35 million dollars vision, Rich… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — …what I immediately try to do is say, okay, talk to me about what it is about that $35 million dollar thing that’s resonating with you. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so even though he’s describing something that’s $35 million, dollars and as an architect, I might get really excited about drawing $35 million dollars worth of stuff. Rich Birch — Yes. Aaron Stanski — If he actually can’t afford it and can’t raise it, he’s actually not going to go do it. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — So I need to go back to that vision and say, okay, what are the pieces in there that are from God, that are ah that are aligned with the mission that his church has and stuff? And I need to contextualize that. And then as an architect, as a designer, I have to turn around and say, okay, with my guardrails in place of budget and scope, how do I express those things… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …in the $5 million dollars that God has entrusted our church with? And so there’s going to be a lot of difficult decisions along the way. We’re going to have to prioritize some things. And some other things might have to go on the back burner. But that’s the process that we want to help churches walk through um to to get them to that point where they’re walking into a space for the first time and going, oh, man, this feels like us. Like this is this is who God wants us to be in our community. And I’m so excited about doing ministry in this new space. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So it’s it’s not, from what I hear you saying, it’s not unreasonable on the front end to be like, hey, we should actually bring, like, be clear on this is this is what we think we can actually raise. This is that what we think we can carry. We think we could do a project of X, whatever. And that needs to be early on in the discussion rather than we’re disappointed on the back end. Oh my goodness, we got this this big number and we don’t know what to do with it. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I like to be doing it simultaneously. I like to be doing the Needs Analysis and working through, okay, here’s the eight different project options. You can relocate and spend $35 million. You can add on. You can you can do this. All right, here’s your here’s your four options, $10, $8, $6, $4 million dollars And at the same time, I like to encourage churches to like, okay, go talk to someone like yourself… Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — …and say, okay, what do we think we could raise if we did a capital campaign? How much debt do we currently have? How do our elders feel about us you know borrowing some money if it if it makes a bigger impact on the project? Because if we can bring those two things together and pray through it and get clarity from God about what he’s asking us to do, then I can go ah help draw buildings and blueprints and things like that. Rich, you can help them raise some money and they and we can you know we can go through that process. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, it’s great. And you know, my experience has been every one of those steps, friends, is, it’s a lot of work. It’s, it’s like a, it’s a faith ah stretching experience. There are late, late nights staring at the ceiling, but every one of those I’ve been a part of, literally 100% of them have been transformative in the life of the church. You know, when they, when you look back, you’re like, wow, that was an inflection point. I am so glad we went through that. It wasn’t this like we did that and I was like, man, that wasn’t such so good in the end. It was really was amazing. Rich Birch — Well, there’s a resource that you’ve provided. It’s called 10 Things to Get ah Right Before You Build. Talk to us about this resource and then and then where can where can we want to make sure people get this. Tell us tell us a little bit about this. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, like with, you know, church, hundreds of churches calling us, you know, every year, asking a lot of the questions that we’ve talked about today. Like we tried to distill down what are the most common things the churches are like, okay, pause real quick. I got to go do something real fast before we decide that we can sort of move forward. And so some of these things are what happens like while you’re talking to Risepointe and some of these things might be before. But I think it’s just kind of a helpful reminder and ah a thoughtful list to kind of work through. Aaron Stanski — And so if that’s helpful at all, or if that’s interesting at all, um you can just go to risepointe.com/unseminary. And a little ah little landing page will pop up there. There’s two things you can do on that page. The first one is to just give us your name and your email there and sign up and get that 10 things to download. Aaron Stanski — I also threw another button on there this morning in case you’re like, hey, that sounds great, but I’ve got I’ve got a specific question I have about our building. Or like, I actually really need to talk to you guys about what our options are. And so I put another button down there at the bottom. If you want to schedule a call with myself or one of our architects, we’d love to hop on the phone with you. No charge for that. 30 minutes. Just kind of talk through where you’re at, what some of your questions are and see if we might be able to help. So ah once again, that’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And you can get all that, all that stuff right there. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And friends, I’ve had multiple friends in ministry who have engaged with with Aaron across the entire spectrum. The like free 30 minute thing all the way up through, you know, the kind of full deal, help get a whole project out the door. And and just so happy with the work that Risepointe does. And just has been transformative for their churches. So you get a hearty endorsement from me. You really should do that. Again, that’s just risepointe.com/unseminary. You can pick this up. It is a helpful little PDF, and the schedule call is a great thing. Rich Birch — Well, Aaron, I appreciate you being here today. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you guys or if they’re anywhere else online, obviously risepointe.com. We want to send them to anywhere else online. We want to we want to send them to. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can always, uh, you know, follow us on the Insta or whatever you want to do there. Rich Birch — Nice. Love it. Aaron Stanski — If you’re into like, you know, cool pictures of like steel being erected, ah or, uh, kids ministry stuff or pictures and stuff, we’re trying to share a little bit more info there. But yeah, I mean, or just our website and, uh, yeah, stay connected. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Thanks for being here and have a good day, buddy. Aaron Stanski — All right, you too. Bye.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Tensley Almand, President and CEO of Atlanta Mission, the largest and longest-running provider of services for people experiencing homelessness in the Atlanta metro area. Founded in 1938 as a soup kitchen during the Great Depression, Atlanta Mission now operates four campuses, serving over 800 men, women, and children nightly through programs that provide housing, recovery support, and Christ-centered transformation. How do you lead through complexity while staying true to your calling? Tensley shares leadership lessons from his transition from church ministry to leading a $20 million nonprofit—insights that apply to every pastor or church leader navigating growth, complexity, or change. Moving beyond shelter to transformation. // While many think of Atlanta Mission as only an emergency shelter, over 60% of its beds are dedicated to long-term transformational programs that address root causes of homelessness. The yearlong program includes counseling, trauma recovery, life skills, and vocational training. Clients complete a four-week “Next Steps” program focused on relational, emotional, and workplace health. The results are remarkable: 70% of graduates maintain stable housing and employment a year later. Learning to lead by listening. // When Tensley stepped into his CEO role, he faced the challenge of succeeding a leader who had guided the organization from crisis to stability. Rather than arriving as the expert, Tensley began as what he calls the “Chief Question Officer.” He met with every employee to ask four key questions: What's right? What's wrong? What's missing? What's confusing? The responses revealed a clear need for strategic focus. Building clarity and focus. // Using that input, Tensley led a yearlong process to create a strategic roadmap—a seven-year plan that defines the organization's mission, values, and measurable outcomes. When there's clarity in an organization, saying ‘no' becomes easy and saying ‘yes' becomes difficult. The new strategy gave Atlanta Mission a unified framework for decision-making, with every initiative measured against the same mission. Measuring what matters. // Data fuels care. In order to better track client progress, the team at Atlanta Mission built dashboards, measuring not only how many people they serve but how lives are changing. When graduation rates dipped from 70% to 45%, they discovered the cause wasn't program failure but economic change. That same approach can transform church leadership. Churches measure nickels and noses, but what if we measured progression—how many first-time guests become group members, or how many volunteers grow into leaders? Partnership through presence. // Atlanta Mission thrives through partnerships with churches across the city. Tensley explains that relational poverty—people lacking healthy connections—is as debilitating as material poverty. Rather than only focusing on “do for” service projects, he encourages churches to create “be with” opportunities: hosting birthday parties, sharing meals, or building relationships with families at Atlanta Mission. Encouragement for leaders. // Reflecting on his own journey, Tensley reminds church leaders who feel stretched or uncertain that often you’ll overestimate what you can accomplish in 90 days, but underestimate what you can do in a year or two. Take time to listen, build unity, and stay faithful in the process. Over time, that faithfulness becomes transformation—both in the people you lead and in yourself. To learn more about Atlanta Mission, visit atlantamission.org or email to connect or schedule a visit. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. We’ve got a real honored to have an incredible guest on today’s episode. We’ve got Tensley Almand with us. He is the president and CEO of Atlanta Mission. Rich Birch — Now, if you don’t know Atlanta Mission, I’m not sure where you’ve been. You really should know. This organization was founded in 1938 as a soup kitchen to feed men who were displaced by the Great Depression. And they just keep chugging along. They do incredible work. They now serve Metro Atlanta’s largest homeless population and bring hope in the face of homelessness, poverty, and addiction. Rich Birch — Prior to serving at Atlanta Mission, he was in vocational ministry for 20 plus years, the last 12 of those, as we were just saying in the pre-call. He said, felt like he had the the best job in the world, was a lead pastor at Decatur City Church, one of the eight Atlanta City, Atlanta area campuses of North Point Ministries. Tensley, welcome. So glad you’re here. Tensley Almand — Man, so good to be here. Thanks so much for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. Rich Birch — No, this is going to be good. I’m excited. Why don’t you kind of fill in the picture? Tell us a little bit more of your background and tell us a bit more about Atlanta Mission, that kind of thing. Just help set the table. Tensley Almand — Yeah, so I’m a native Atlantan. I grew up here, born and raised just north of the city. Yeah. Only child. Parents still live north of the city in the same town that I grew up in. Rich Birch — Nice. Tensley Almand — My wife and I, we have four kids. We have been married now, just celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary… Rich Birch — Congratulations. That’s great. Tensley Almand — …which makes me feel old, but it’s it’s it’s all good. So four kids, three boys, little girl, they’re all just amazing, doing great things and in their worlds. We live over in city of Decatur. So ah for those that don’t know, just kind of just right outside of downtown Atlanta. So we feel like we’re living in the heart of the city. Rich Birch — Cool. Tensley Almand — Like you said, I spent 20 plus years on the church side of ministry, which you had told younger me that that was going to be my future, I probably would have laughed at you. Grew up in a family that church just frankly, wasn’t that important to us. My mom gets mad if I say I didn’t grow up in a Christian home, um, which, you know, looking back, I think is really true. I just grew up in a home that we didn’t feel like the church was for us. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so, um, after, you know, meeting Jesus in college, giving my life to him, which is a whole nother really cool story, started down the path towards ministry. And eventually several years into that kind of looked up and thought, I don’t know what I’m doing. Like I’m working at these churches that I don’t even want to attend. Tensley Almand — Like remember this very pivotal meeting in my life where our pastor asked us, he’s like, if I didn’t pay you to go to church here, is this the church you would attend? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — And every one of us said no. Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Oh, my goodness. Tensley Almand — And they were all okay with it. Rich Birch — Oh, no. Tensley Almand — And I just like something broke in me. Rich Birch — Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah. Tensley Almand — And I remember going home and I told my wife, I was like, I can’t do this anymore. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so I started the process of just trying to find a job. But the problem is I’ve genuinely felt called by God to ministry. And so God used that to, to lead us down the path of starting Decatur City Church. And, um, our whole dream was just to create a church that people who didn’t like church would love to attend. Tensley Almand — And so, which is really cool. Again, it’s probably a whole other episode, but really cool because we got to do that in one of the most unchurched cities in Atlanta. 70% of the people who live in Decatur ah don’t go to a church. And Decatur, for those who don’t know, small little town right outside of a big city. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — But literally, there’s over 600 churches in that town. So we used to say all the time, nobody wakes up on Sunday wondering where a church is. They just wake up wondering if church is for them. Rich Birch — Right, right. Tensley Almand — And so that’s, that’s the thing we tried to solve. Right. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so did that for 12 years, thought I would do that with my whole life. Just an amazing season. And then God called me out of there to Atlanta Mission. And so for those who don’t know, and we can get into that story here if you want to, but, for those who don’t know, Atlanta mission, like you said, it’s the largest and longest running provider of services… Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — …for men, women, and children experiencing homelessness in our city. So for perspective, what that means is on any given night, we’ll have about 800 men, women, or children who are staying with us. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. That’s a significant operation. That’s, that’s incredible. Tensley Almand — It’s a significant operation. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — It represents that in our city, that represents about 35 to 40% of all the shelter beds in Atlanta. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Tensley Almand — So that’s, it’s a, it’s pretty remarkable opportunity that we do that across three campuses in downtown Atlanta. Rich Birch — Okay. Tensley Almand — One for men, two for women and children. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And then we have this really cool drug and alcohol addiction facility out near Athens, which is about an hour outside of town, on 550 acre farm that is just beautiful ah for men who are in recovery from addiction. Rich Birch — Wow. Oh my goodness. Huh. Tensley Almand — So yeah. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s, that’s incredible. i’m I’m glad you started with the kind of community size that you’re you’re serving. That’s, that’s amazing. Give me a sense of the operation from like a, you know, total number of staff, other kinds of metrics. Like I’m just trying to, I know, you know, you’re not a kind of person that’s going to brag about that kind of stuff, but just trying to help people kind of place, because this is a significant operation, friends. Atlanta Mission is it’s a world-class organization doing great work and honored to have you on this the show. But people might not be ah kind of aware of the the scale of it. Give us a bit more sense of that. Tensley Almand — Yeah, no, it’s a, it’s a good question. I appreciate you asking. Cause yeah, I definitely don’t, I don’t want to, I don’t like going there, but… Rich Birch — Yes. And it’s even just, it’s a funny thing to, it’s a funny thing to even like, it’s like, well, we’re really good. It’s like, it’s like, well, yeah, it’s a tough thing you’re doing. So it’s like, man, it’s a weird thing to kind of try to but get ah your arms around. How, how do we talk about this? Yeah. Tensley Almand — Yeah. So let me kind of give you scope and then let me talk a little bit about what we’re doing. So scope is ah we’re we’re about a $20 million dollars a year organization. Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Tensley Almand — And so just like every church out there, that means, you know, we start July as the start of our fiscal year and we start at zero… Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — …and then we go and raise $20 million dollars… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …to meet the need of our expenses. And we do that through mainly private and and corporate donations. And so… Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — …we’re almost a hundred percent privately funded this year. Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Tensley Almand — We, we, we took our very first government grant. Rich Birch — Huh. Tensley Almand — But I mean, it’s a $250,000 grant, which is not insignificant, but on the scope of 20 million. So that kind of gives everybody an idea. So you’re talking about, uh, you know, thousands of donors who come alongside of us to partner with us, which is just amazing. Rich Birch — Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Tensley Almand — We serve about 800 men, women, and children, like I said, Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And we have right at about 180 staff… Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — …who are who are either you know full-time equivalents basically here with us. And that’s across four different campuses. So we’re essentially like a multi-site operation. So I’m sitting here at my office today, which is basically our mission support center. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — So your accounting, HR, development team, all of your infrastructure, and we support the work that’s happening all over our city. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And then we also have three thrift stores across Northeast Georgia that’s included in that head count. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — And so a little bit of that 20 million that I was telling you about that that revenue comes from sales as well. And so, so yeah, it’s pretty broad organization. And then what we do, a lot of people think about you know Atlanta Mission, especially here in our city, and they just think emergency shelter. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Certainly what we do. But of those 800 beds, roughly only 40% of those go towards emergency shelter. And so if you… Rich Birch — Oh, really? OK. Tensley Almand — Yeah. And so if you show up at our door and you just need safety, security, stability, um, you’re just trying to like get off the street… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …we have a program called Find Hope… Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — …and it’s a 30-day program. You can stay with us rent free 30 days. You know, bed meals, showers, really, really, really, really low expectation on those clients. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — It’s just like, hey, we’re here to meet your needs. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Tensley Almand — The other 60% of our beds go towards what we call our transformational model… Rich Birch — Okay. Tensley Almand — …where we provide complete wraparound services. It’s about a year long program. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — You show up and we’re going to try to help you get healthy relationally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, vocationally. We’ve got counselors, we’ve got advocates, we’ve got social workers. You have a whole team… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …that works with you, walks with you for a year… Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — …depending on really your core traumas, what’s caused your homelessness. And our main goal, our mission is to transform through Christ the lives of those who are experiencing homelessness, poverty, and addiction. Tensley Almand — And so what we want to do, what that means to us is over the course of that year, Um, we want to give you the tools to identify your traumas, understand those traumas and ultimately break the cycles so that you don’t ever have to come back to our doors again. We we tell our clients, we love you, but we don’t ever want to see you again. Like this is just like, like, how do we… Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. This was a phase of your life, hopefully, right? Tensley Almand — Yeah. Rich Birch — That’s the goal. Tensley Almand — How do we end that for you? And so our program goes through all the counseling, all the services, and it wraps up in a vocational training program we call Next Steps that… Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. Tensley Almand — …that gives our clients the soft skills they need to not just get a job. Because here’s here’s what’s really cool. You you would get this. Our clients are really good at getting jobs. But like so many people out there, we’re terrible at keeping a job. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Yes. Tensley Almand — Like people don’t know the skills needed to like keep a job. Like how do you manage conflict? Rich Birch — Right, right. Tensley Almand — What do you do with that boss who’s just overbearing? How do you have normal workplace conversations? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — And so we have a ah four week training program that gives our clients those skills. And what we’re finding is that for the clients who go all the way through our program, 70% of those who graduate our program, they still have a house or a living situation a year later. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — And they are maintaining that job a year later. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredible. Tensley Almand — And so it’s just been a remarkable, remarkable journey. And so we’ve got some transitional housing in there… Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — …where you graduate our program, you stay with us, we help you save up and and we help you find an apartment. And then when you’re ready financially and you’re you’re stable, we help you move into that that apartment. Tensley Almand — And what’s really cool, probably one of my favorite things is for alumni is that year after you graduate, you get a retention coach with us and they walk with you. And they just help you navigate life because, man, when you’ve stayed somewhere for a year and then you kind of come back in and you’re like, oooh, the pressures of the world are on me. That first year is so tough. Rich Birch — So hard. Yeah. Tensley Almand — Yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — Well, that’s cool. I appreciate you sharing that. and And yeah, even church leaders that are listening in, um man, ah there whether if you’re in the Atlanta area, you definitely should reach out to Atlanta Mission. Rich Birch — But even in your neighborhood, like there are, this is why you shouldn’t be trying to invent this yourself as a church. There are these are incredibly complex issues that you know when I heard all of the the different things you’re doing to surround people, try to help them, um that’s that’s inspiring. That’s amazing. Rich Birch — Well, I’d love to pivot and talk about kind of your experience as you’ve transitioned in, like some try to extract some leadership lessons. It’s been said that one of the first things that leaders do is define reality or gain clarity for their for their organization. Rich Birch — When you first started early on in your role, what were you listening for or look for that told you, maybe there’s some areas here that just aren’t very clear? What did you see as you were, you know, we got to bring some more clarity in the organization? Were there things you kind of saw that that made you think, oh, we maybe this is some areas we need to gain some better clarity as an organization? Tensley Almand — Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, every leadership transition is different. One of the advantages I had is that what my predecessor was leaving me was so much different than what he inherited. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And so he inherited an organization that was in crisis. He handed me an organization that was thriving. But, that organization really was, and he was, and it’s it’s all kind of wrapped up in our story, is that it was time for him to retire. It was time for him to move on. And so the whole organization was asking what’s next. And so that’s, that’s one advantage I had is that there was this collective, like, well, like what what is next for us? That was helpful. Tensley Almand — The other advantage I had, and I did not think this was an advantage. But, you know, I, I came out of church ministry. I didn’t know how to lead a nonprofit. I didn’t know anything about homelessness. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Tensley Almand — I didn’t know much about social services. And so, yeah I truly believe God called me into this, but I couldn’t come in like an expert. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so I literally was forced to, my I tell people my door said CEO, but I think I was really the chief question officer. I mean, my my first year… Rich Birch — Help me understand. Help me understand. Tensley Almand — …was, yeah, asking questions. I can I can vividly remember our clinical director coming into my office and saying, hey, we’ve got this massive clinical decision that we need to make and there’s this and this and this. And you know and then like trying to leave that way. What do you think we should do? And I’m like… you’re the clinical director. Like, what do what do you mean? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — But that was again, and this is and he would say this if he was sitting here, my predecessor had an organization that was in crisis. And so every decision had to center on him. And I needed to come in and teach our team how to have a decentralized leadership. How like, hey, look you’re the clinical director I’m going to support you, I’m to remove obstacles for you. But if I have to make clinical decisions, we’re we’ve got a really big problem because I’m not qualified to make that decision. Tensley Almand — And so um really pushing leadership down… Rich Birch — yeah Tensley Almand — …asking a lot of questions, understanding what we do. And so that was that was a huge advantage that that i think a lot of people probably, they can like I did, they they think about the things that are stacked against them. To me, it’s like you don’t know anything about the space. That’s a big obstacle. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Well, maybe lean into those obstacles because it’s a really good way to to get underneath the hood. And so it forced me to ask questions, forced me to listen. And then what I did is I I truly went on a just a listening tour. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — I set up a meeting, I think, with every employee of our organization. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Tensley Almand — And I asked everybody what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s missing and what’s confusing. Rich Birch — Huh. Tensley Almand — And I still have that notebook. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — I mean, my assistant like cataloged answers for days. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And what was so cool to me was that without having the same language, almost everybody in the organization identified the same rights, wrongs, missings and confusions. And so I was able to then take that and really come back to our senior team and say, hey, what should we do about this? Like we all… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — We all agree this is a problem. like What should we do do? And I think a colleague of mine, I remember walking into his office and he had this drawing on his board. I’m like, what is what is that? He’s like, well, is how I feel about our organization. I remember it was ah it was a circle. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And all the arrows were pointed in every direction around the circle. And he’s like, that’s us. Like, we’ve got the right idea… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …but everybody’s pulling in a hundred directions to try to figure out how to do that idea. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — and I said, man, we need to take that circle and get all those arrows on one side. Cause if we can collectively pull… and that just kind of became our quest. And so we took all those answers and, you know, basically the the big thing was, um you know, and I don’t know where I learned this, but I feel like when there’s clarity in an organization, ‘no’ is really easy and ‘yes’ is is really difficult. It’s like really easy to say no. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And what I found at Atlanta Mission was we were just saying yes to everything. And the reason we were saying yes to everything is because there was no strategy, there was no clarity. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And so we took that first year and a half, wrote our strategic plan, identified who we want to be and why we want to be that. And then what would it look like to be that organization? And so we just kind of built it backwards. And that’s the journey we’ve been on now for the last four years since I’ve been here. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s, ah yeah, that’s incredible. I love that that feeling. In fact, i I took over a nonprofit ah kids camp and much smaller scale than what you’re running. But I remember those early days where there yeah people are looking at you and and and there is this sense of like, okay, so like you got to tell us where we’re going. What is the thing we’re doing next? Like and it’s easy to like… the easy thing is, let’s try this. Let’s try that. Let’s do a bunch of different things. And that can lead to that pulling, those hundred different, you know, it’s lots of activity, but it’s not focused. Tensley Almand — Yeah. Rich Birch — And trying to get everybody on a kind of a shared page of or shared picture of what the future looks like, man, that’s great through this, this process of kind of we’re going to do a strategic plan over a year. What, what would you, what would you say to a leader that is feeling the pressure of like, Hey, I want to define the future now, as opposed to that feels like a step back. We’re going to year and a half and define this stuff. What would you say to a leader? Why should we slow down? Talk us through why that, how that benefited now that you’re on the other side of all that. Tensley Almand — Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is it’s it’s totally worth it. I mean, it it was hard. It was challenging. It it does feel like a step back. But I don’t know how to step forward without without clarity, you know. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And that’s, you said at the beginning, I got to ah got to be one of the campus pastors at North Point Community Church for years. I can remember Andy always saying, The beauty of North Point wasn’t that we got to start with a blank page, just that we started on the same page. Rich Birch — That’s good Tensley Almand — And I just think that like that, that is always set with me. And so when I when I started here, I realized like, hey, I don’t I don’t get the luxury of a blank page. I mean, this organization has been around since 1938. You know, when I when I started Decatur City, it was so easy because I just told everybody what we were doing and why we were doing it and there was nothing else we were doing. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so it was just like… But here it’s like, OK, if I can’t get to a blank page, the best thing I can do is we’ve got to get on the same page… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …or else we’re just we’re going to spin our tires. And, and you know, I think I’ll I’ll this story probably sums it up and maybe somebody can relate to this. I have a monthly breakfast with our board chair and our vice chair. And the very first breakfast I went to in this role, it was my predecessor’s last breakfast and my first. And so we’re all so it’s him, it’s me and it’s a board chair a vice chair, all of which have been around this organization 3x the amount of time I had at that point, I had been there like three days. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Couple weeks. Tensley Almand — And and we got this email the night before the breakfast, and it was from a developer. And they were offering $14 million dollars for the piece of property that my office sits on, which is a widely underused piece of property… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …that we’ve always kind of wrestled with, like, what do we do with this thing? Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — $14 million dollars. Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — That’s almost our entire year’s budget. Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — And I remember showing up to this breakfast with this LOI and I asked the question, should we take it or should we not? Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And nobody could answer my question. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Tensley Almand — Nobody knew if it was a good idea to take $14 million dollars or to walk away from $14 million dollars Rich Birch — And if that group doesn’t know, nobody else in the organization is going to know, right? Tensley Almand — And that’s exactly what I said. I was like, if you don’t know, and I don’t know… Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes, exactly. Tensley Almand — …nobody knows. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Tensley Almand — And so I started with that small group and I said, hey, would you give me the freedom to to take however long it takes for us to make sure we can answer that question? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Tensley Almand — And so in our first board meeting, I raised my hand and I just said, hey guys, I know I’m new, I know I just started. But I shared the story and I said, hey, we have to be able to answer questions like this. Or we’re never going to get anywhere. We may do a lot of good things, but we are going to have no idea if we did the best thing. Rich Birch — Right, right. That’s good. That’s good. So kind of double clicking on that, continuing to kind of focus in on this. You know, there are churches, organizations that will do the strat plan or roll. We go away for the big retreat. We come up with the new value statements. It’s got great strategy on paper. But it doesn’t end up translating into practice. What are you doing at the mission to try to make sure that we’re going from that wasn’t just a great document that’s like in a nice book somewhere, but it’s actually rolling out. Maybe give us some examples of that. And what are those kind of rhythms, cadences, all that? How how are you making that happen? Tensley Almand — Yeah, it’s wish I could really tell you we’re crushing it in this area. It’s this is a new habit for us. Rich Birch — Sure. Sure. Good. Tensley Almand — And so we’re I’m four years in. We just finished our first full fiscal year under our new strategy. And so I can tell you what we’ve learned. Rich Birch — Hey, that’s good. Yeah, good. Tensley Almand — One, once you get it built you have to start small. We, I wish I could remember the exact number, I think as a senior team we committed and told our board we were going to do 392 new initiatives or something in year one, you know. Rich Birch — Wow. Right. Tensley Almand — And this is a seven-year plan… Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — …we’re like we got almost for it and I think we got 100 through of the 392. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And we celebrated like crazy at the end of the year because it was like, that’s 100 things that were all in alignment that we’d never done before. We learned so much. So, start small. Tensley Almand — The other thing is we built our plan. And I was I was very intentional about this because of what you just said. I did not want another notebook that was going to sit on my shelf. And so our strategic plan is really a strategic roadmap. And what I have told our board, what I’ve told our staff is I want an organization that knows how to think. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And our our plan is really a roadmap for how we should think. It’s not overly prescriptive in necessarily what that means. Because it’s it’s designed to take us all the way through 2030. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Well, I have no idea what’s going to happen between now and 2030. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Tensley Almand — But I do know that if what we said we want to accomplish, we’re accomplishing, however that looks, by 2030, we’re on the right track. And so that would be the other thing is just like, I would build, I wouldn’t make it so prescriptive that it tells you like, Hey, next week you’re doing this. And the week after… It needs to teach the organization how to think, how to act so that the person who’s brand new on the front line, if I’m not in the room, they don’t need to spend any time going like what, what would Tensley want me to do? They just, this is who we are as an organization. It’s how we think. Tensley Almand — And then we at a senior level and then we pushed it all the way down to our organization. We built a meeting cadence around it. Rich Birch — Nice. Tensley Almand — And so we have our senior team meets once a week. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — That’s my six direct reports and plus my admin. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And we, one, so we do that on Tuesday morning, one, the first Tuesday of the month is a strategy meeting. We talk all about the strategic plan. That’s like a, how how are you doing and your department doing towards what you said you were gonna do? Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And we have a dashboard to measure that against. And then the next Tuesday is an operations meeting. And it’s just like, hey, what are what are we working on? We can’t live at 50,000 feet all the time. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Let’s get down to 1,000 feet or whatever it is. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — And so we have that operations cadence. And then the third meeting is kind of like a catch-all, like, hey, what you know what needs to happen? And then our last meeting of the month is a monthly ministry review with the entire, not just my direct reports, but all the managers that sit under my direct reports. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool. Tensley Almand — And they lead that meeting. I listen in that meeting. And I get to hear what’s happening at every campus, what’s going on. And I get to hear how people are implementing or not implementing the strategy. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And then the very next meeting, if you’re keeping up, is then our strategy meeting. Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — So then I’m like, hey… Rich Birch — Here’s some stuff I heard. Tensley Almand — …tell me more about this. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Tensley Almand — Or I didn’t hear like, Hey, I thought we were working on this. Why is that not happening? And so we have dashboards. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Tensley Almand — We’ve never had those before. We have data that we can follow. We have metrics we’ve identified as a, as a team, our wins. And so it’s like, Hey, how are we tracking towards those wins and just have created a layer of accountability that didn’t exist probably three years ago. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Let’s talk a little bit more about the data thing. I’ve, or data thing. We, I’ve, I’ve said with younger leaders, you know, spreadsheets are the language of leadership. Like you’re going to have to get used to this stuff. This is just… Tensley Almand — Yep. Rich Birch — …this is how we care for people at scale is, is that is what it looks like. So data can either inspire or intimidate. How do you track outcomes? How do you, how do you how have you seen, you know, data over this last year actually change behavior and move things, improve care, better outcomes, all that kind of stuff. Talk us through what, cause you know, what we measure can get, can, you know, steer us in the wrong direction or steer us in the right direction. Help, help us think through that. As we’re thinking about what numbers should we pay attention to? Tensley Almand — Yeah. So again, when I started, that was a big question I had. So if you were to look at our numbers, you would see that we serve, you know, let’s, these are rough, but right at about 3000 people a year come through our doors. Rich Birch — Okay. Tensley Almand — Right. Which is huge. Rich Birch — Yep. Tensley Almand — You’re like, man, that’s amazing. Well, then I, as I walk you through that, by the time you get to the end of our vocational training a year later, we may graduate like 400. And then 70% of those 400 are still doing well the the next year. And so, you know, on paper, you’re like, man, is that good? Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Tensley Almand — Like that, that there’s a lot of attrition there. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — Like should, is, is, are we fail… And that was, again, when I started, that was a question nobody could answer for me is, Hey, is that good? Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so even backing up before we built our strategy, our senior team spent so much time defining our outcomes. And we had all of these statements, you know, but it was like we want somebody to be healthy vocationally. Tensley Almand — It’s like, okay, what does that mean? Crickets in the room. Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — Wait, if you don’t know what it means and I don’t know what it means, does the person who’s leading that program know what it means? Better question: does the person who’s receiving our services know if they’ve actually achieved help in that area? Tensley Almand — And so we went through, defined all of those terms so that there was a clear outcome to it… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …so that we could then measure it. And then we built both a one-page dashboard that our senior team could look at at a high level. So I could I can open this dashboard on any Monday morning. It’s just in Tableau, so nothing super you know exciting. Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Tensley Almand — And I can just see, i can see progression through our program. I can see healthy exits. We’ve defined what are healthy exits. I can see, ah you know, are people getting stuck? That was a big thing we were we were learning is like, people are just getting stuck in our program and we’re committing to somebody. You’re going to be at this phase of the program 30 days. Well, then they spend 60 days. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And what we were finding. We were, so this, this probably long winded way of saying this, but what we, we didn’t know what was happening or why it was happening and it felt good. But you know, you’re like, I don’t know. Tensley Almand — And so what we were finding is it’s like, Hey, so that’s an example. Like, somebody gets stuck in our program. We promised them 30. It takes 60. All of a sudden, we were able to track that, hey, there’s a certain amount of fallout rate at this stage of the program. Why is that happening? Oh, people are stuck. They’ve been here too long. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — We got to fix that. And so it it enabled us to know what needed to be fixed and and not fixed. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Tensley Almand — And probably the the best real-time example of that is just recently. So I keep telling you the 70% number of graduates are successful. That’s kind of our historical data. Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Tensley Almand — Well, this year, that number fell for the first time ever. It’s gotten better every year. Rich Birch — Wow. Tensley Almand — This year it fell and it fell like dramatically. And this is one of those I don’t like to talk about it because it doesn’t look good. Rich Birch — Interesting. Yes. Tensley Almand — I mean, like it fell down to almost like 45, 50 percent. Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Tensley Almand — You’re like, what’s happening? Rich Birch — Almost inverse. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Tensley Almand — Exactly. And so at first, you’re like, our program is no good. We got rewrite our program. Well, thankfully, we had been tracking all of the kind of whys and we understood what was happening in people’s lives. And what we have found out is no, like the economy shifted. You can’t get a job in 30 to 60 days anymore. Rich Birch — Interesting. Tensley Almand — And so a gate in our program is when you graduate, you have 60 days to get a job. If you don’t get a job, you can’t move into our transitional housing because if we just allow you to stay, beds back up and then more people can’t get in. Tensley Almand — Well, our clients then would stop taking our advice and stop waiting for a good job. And at day like 50, they would just go get that job that doesn’t pay well. Rich Birch — Ohhh. Tensley Almand — And they knew it wasn’t going to be a career builder job. It was just going to keep them sheltered. Rich Birch — Right, right. Tensley Almand — And so it was our our like metrics were actually driving a behavior we didn’t like. Rich Birch — That’s interesting. Tensley Almand — And so we’re in the process now of like, hey, we’ve got to change this. The length of time it takes to get a job now takes longer. and Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — The job market’s more you know fierce right now. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so we don’t want nothing against these types of jobs. We don’t necessarily want our client leaving to go get a job at McDonald’s Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — But for them, leaving it to go get a job at McDonald’s versus not having a place to stay, I’ll take the McDonald’s job… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Tensley Almand — …even though I know I’m only going to be there three months. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Tensley Almand — And so it was throwing off all of our numbers and it’s because we were incorrectly driving a behavior that we don’t want to drive. So. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s cool. That’s a great, very vivid example. And there’s lots of that in the church world. I know you I know you know that. There was a church I was doing some work with last year, large church, 10,000-person church. And they were we were talking one of the numbers I obsess with my clients over is documented first-time guests, the actual number of people that come every single weekend. And I was convinced that this church was just was missing a whole bunch of first time guests. And so they were telling me about how great their, their, their assimilation numbers were. They were like, Oh, this is so great. And I was like, I just don’t believe it. I’m like, because, because if you are not capturing the number of, of documented first time guests, then yeah and you’re comparing against half of what you probably actually have coming into your church, then then every number be below that, all your integration stuff looks twice as good as it actually is. Tensley Almand — Yeah. Rich Birch — And you know that that happens in lots of places across our numbers. We’ve got to get real clear and benchmark against other people. Tensley Almand — If I could go back and if I could go back, no, no, it’s just, like I’ve often thought like, what would I do different if I was a church leader now? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a good question. Tensley Almand — And I would I would measure so much differently. Rich Birch — Yeah, interesting. Tensley Almand — You know, historically we’ve measured nickels and noses, right? Like how much money’s coming in and how many people are sitting in the pews. But it’s like, those are important. Rich Birch — Yeah. Tensley Almand — I wouldn’t stop measuring them, but I would pay attention to like this. I would try to find a way to measure progression, you know. Rich Birch — Yes, 100%. Tensley Almand — It’s like to your point how many first-time guests are you having okay well then of those first-time guests how many of them are actually moving to your small groups. Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%. Tensley Almand — Of those who moved your small groups do any of them ever volunteer like and and really understand the behaviors you want. And then measure to those behaviors and i think especially in a world where just church attendance looks so much so much different, we could gauge health of our churches so much more effectively if we were Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true. I’d love to I’d love to kind of pivot for a few minutes in a slightly different direction. Tensley Almand — Okay. Rich Birch — So we have a lot of church leaders that are listening in and I’d love to understand how Atlanta Mission partners with churches. What does that look like? How do you work together? So specifically at Atlanta misha, and then what would you, Mission, and then what would you say to churches in general? Hey, um what advice would you give now that you’re on this side of the equation of actually partnering with an organization like Atlanta Mission? How can you be kind of the best partner? How do we what are what are people on your side of the table actually looking for from a church like ours? Because I’m sure there’s all kinds of stories of like, yeah, that didn’t work well. Talk us through what that looks like, partnerships specifically, and then kind of in general, how can we be better at that? Tensley Almand — Yeah, and partnership is one of our pillars of our strategic plan. I think I think for nonprofits, especially when you’re large and you’re self-funded, you can it’s easy to get siloed. And we we fell into that category, not just with outside partners that wanted to come in and help us, but also with other service providers across the the, you know, continuum of care in our city. is It’s just it’s easy to kind of put your head down and do your own thing. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And so this is a huge emphasis for us, mainly because it’s really woven into the vision of our organization. Our organization is a community that’s united to end homelessness one person at a time. Well, I mean, it’s like partnership has to be built into that. Rich Birch — Right. Yes, baked into it. Yeah. Tensley Almand — So what who are we to then go get siloed? Like, that’s like, wow, you can’t even accomplish what you said you wanted to do. And so um we… I’ll back into this answer by telling you one of the things we’ve discovered at Atlanta Mission is that this isn’t this, you know, this isn’t novel, but, you know, material poverty, we all know is debilitating. Relational poverty is just as debilitating as material poverty. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Tensley Almand — And what we find with our clients is that almost 100 percent obviously are struggling with some version of material poverty, but they are just relationally broken and poor. They are void of healthy relationships. And so this is this is so much where partnership comes in, because we we literally have a metric that we track of how many healthy contacts does a client have in their phone before they graduate our program. And what we were finding is I mean we were their only healthy contact. Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Tensley Almand — And it’s wait this is this is not good. And this is such a great place for churches to partner with us because we have so many opportunities that we just call we call them “be with” opportunities there’s like there’s “do for” service projects but there’s also “be with” service projects. And they’re just designed for you to establish healthy community with our clients, build relationships, throw a birthday party for somebody… Rich Birch — That’s so good. Right. Tensley Almand — …have a Christmas party at one of our shelters. Come, you know, we’re moving into the holiday season, you know, come and build gingerbread houses together with our kids who are staying with us and just create an hour in somebody’s life that’s normal. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — And I feel like churches are better at this than anybody. Our corporate partners are fantastic at the “do for” projects. They can then come in and beautify our campuses in 30 minutes in a way that none of us can. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — You know, Home Depot comes in and it’s like, we’re going to transform your landscape. Great. This is awesome. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Tensley Almand — I love it. But a church can come in and just be authentic and be real and be with our clients. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — And you would be amazed at how different somebody’s life looks after just that hour. And so, and I think that’s a huge thing. And then what I would tell churches, I think even as a church leader, I I probably overlooked how vital we were to nonprofits. You just you know, you think it’s an hour, but you know, even the day of, you know, you wake up that morning and you’re like, they don’t really need me. Like, I don’t know. Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — This is, am I not really going to make a difference? Yes, you are. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — You are going to make a huge difference. It is worth the hour. It is worth the drive. Tensley Almand — And we we tell people all the time, and I’ve seen this in my own life. The thing that happens at Atlanta Mission is there’s always two stories of transformation happening. There’s the story of transformation that’s happening in a client’s life. But God transforms my life every day. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Tensley Almand — And it’s that’s the part I didn’t expect, Rich, is that… Rich Birch — Right. Tensley Almand — …my life is being changed as much as anybody else’s. And so I would, I would tell a church, Hey, our clients need you. But you need this as well. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Tensley Almand — Like God’s going to do something in your life. Tensley Almand — And then the other is just, um I think, especially for really big churches, it’s easy to think like, I bet they need my expertise. It’s like, actually, that’s not like. We need your partnership. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Tensley Almand — You know, we, we know how to do this. Come put wind in our sails. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, Tensley Almand — Come just serve, be a part of what we’re doing. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. That’s super helpful. Love love that. Well, just as we’re coming to land, any kind of final words or encouragement you’d you’d say to church leaders that are listening in today that are, you know, wrestling with maybe clarity or wrestling with some of the stuff we’ve talked about today? This has been a really fruitful conversation. Thank you for it. Tensley Almand — Yeah, I think the, you know, probably the biggest thing I would say, and I have to tell myself this all the time. I mean, I’m an entrepreneurial type A. I’m going to like, you know, go conquer the world in a day is that, you know, remind yourself, you know, more than likely what you can accomplish in 90 days is nowhere near what you think it is, you know. But what you can accomplish in a year or two years is probably way more than you ever imagined you could. Rich Birch — Right. So true Yeah, that’s good. Tensley Almand — And so just again, kind of back to the strategy thing, it takes time. It’s messy. You know, you’re going to feel like, is this worth it? It creates conflict on your team. It feels uncomfortable. We were, we were joking as a senior team the other day. There was, it was about a year where I just, every Tuesday morning, I thought I want to cancel this meeting because I just didn’t enjoy, like we were just, we were at conflict because we were… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Tensley Almand — …hashing out who we are and why we exist and what are we going to do and why are we going to do it? Rich Birch — Yes. Tensley Almand — But now it’s my favorite hour of the week. Like, I just love it. And so, you know, I would say that… Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — …you know, and I think, yeah, I don’t know that I have anything, you know, much more. Rich Birch — That’s good. Tensley Almand — Yeah. Rich Birch — No, that’s good. Well, I really appreciate being on the show today. Where do we want to send people if they want to connect with you or with Atlanta Mission? Where are the best places for us to send people online? Tensley Almand — Probably the easiest place is just our website, atlantamission.org. You can find everything you want to about us. If you want to know more, you can email info@atlantamission.org. And that actually goes right to my assistant and we’ll get you connected to the right person. And you can, you know, next time you’re in town, you partner with us. You can help us. You can be happy to give you a tour, show you what we do. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Tensley. Appreciate you being here today. Tensley Almand — Thanks.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Jamie Barfield, the Lead Pastor at Palmetto Pointe Church in South Carolina. Palmetto Pointe is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with four locations in South Carolina, a campus in Southern Illinois, and Spanish-language services reaching even more people. Is your church in a season of slow growth or scarcity? Wondering how to stay faithful and creative when resources are tight? Tune in as Jamie shares powerful lessons from 18 years of ministry—how his team built a thriving, multiplying church by embracing perseverance, stewardship, and servant leadership. The long road to growth. // Palmetto Pointe's story is one of persistence and faithfulness. It took three years to break 100 in attendance, five years before Jamie drew a paycheck, and six before the church had its own building. Today the church averages 2,500 weekly attendees and continues to grow—up 31% last year alone. Jamie credits that perseverance to remembering the “why” behind ministry: reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ. Stewardship over scarcity. // In the early years, Jamie says the constant feeling of “not enough”—not enough money, volunteers, or influence—could have been crushing. Instead, it shaped the church's DNA around stewardship and innovation. Rather than throwing money at problems, the team learned to think creatively and maximize what God had already placed in their hands. That approach still drives their ministry today. Faith that looks forward. // While rejecting the “name it and claim it” mindset, Jamie embraces faith-filled vision. Even when he doesn’t know how to get to big things, he continues to be faithful with what he has right now. This conviction shapes how he leads – every resource is treated as a seed that can grow if cultivated with faith and hard work. Developing leaders intentionally. // One of Palmetto Pointe's most distinctive practices is its 12-week leadership development process, a hands-on journey that every potential leader must complete before serving in a leadership role. Participants are recommended by current leaders and walk closely with Jamie throughout the course. During those 12 weeks, participants serve across multiple ministries and complete weekly assignments that build humility and discipline. Only after completing the program do they join the pool of eligible leaders. Multiplying wisely. // As Palmetto Pointe has launched new services and campuses, Jamie has learned key lessons about healthy multiplication. Each expansion begins with identifying potential pain points, recruiting dedicated volunteers, and ensuring no one burns out. Before adding services, his team recruits a core group committed to that specific time slot for at least nine months. Encouragement for church leaders. // As a district overseer, Jamie has a heart for pastors—especially those in smaller churches who feel stuck or discouraged. His advice: make one Sunday amazing. Pick one big day—Easter, Mother's Day, or another big day—and go all in. Then pick one person and invest deeply in them. Small, faithful steps of stewardship often lead to exponential impact. To learn more about Palmetto Pointe Church, visit palmettopointechurch.com or connect with Jamie on social media at @pastorjamieb. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don't need more pressure—you need support. That's why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn't stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It's like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad to have you tune in today. We’ve got a great conversation. Really looking forward to talking to a leader who I know you can learn from, talking about stuff that is really important as we think about our churches and think about the future. It’s our honor today to have Jamie Barfield with us. He is part of the leadership team at Palmetto Pointe Church. I don’t know why that’s stuck in my mouth coming out.Rich Birch — It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country with four locations in beautiful Myrtle Beach in South Carolina, a location in Southern Illinois and Spanish services as well. He’s an ordained bishop in the Church of God, serves as a district oh overseer for the Myrtle Beach and surrounding areas. He’s also served, he’s got a lot going on, in the State Evangelism Board for the Church of God in South Carolina. Welcome to the show, Jamie, a real expert on the show today. Appreciate you being here.Jamie Barfield — I don’t know about expert, but it is an honor to be here. I learned a lot from the school of hard knocks, so I will be definitely able to answer from that point point of view.Rich Birch — Love it. Well, Palmetto Pointe is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Now multiple locations, which is we see that 73% of churches over 2000 have multiple locations. For leaders that don’t know the story, kind of give me the story of your church. Tell me a little bit of what’s going on. If it were to arrive this weekend, what would that look like?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, wild, wild story. 18 years. We just celebrated 18 years. Rich Birch — Congratulations.Jamie Barfield — Took us three years to ever break 100. Five years before I was ever getting a paycheck from the church. Rich Birch — Wow.Jamie Barfield — Six years before we ever had our own facility. Seven years before I ever had another staff member with me. Right before COVID hit, we were doing four services. And then obviously COVID shut everything down. And last year, God’s favor has just been upon the church the last few years. Last year, we grew about 31% last year – it was wild. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. And what does attendance look like now on the weekends at your church?Jamie Barfield — We had 2,500 last Sunday. Rich Birch — Wow. Jamie Barfield — And we had but 2,500 last Sunday and that we we had about, of that probably 2,100 was here at our our main location here in Myrtle Beach.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible. Well, I appreciate that you paced out the timeline there, because I think there’s a lot of church leaders who, or church planters who are in these early days, and it feels like, and the early days could be half a decade, you know, it could be a long time.Rich Birch — Take us back when you think kind of the mindset of that, what what what was that experience like? How did you keep going? Talk us through what did that look like?Jamie Barfield — Yeah. Early on, you know, and I talked at a conference last weekend about your “why”, knowing why you’re in this to begin with, knowing why you started and never forgetting the thing that actually put you in ministry to begin with. You know, that moment God called you, that moment that he asked you to do something great for him.Jamie Barfield — And in those moments or those seasons, um early on specifically, when you were ready to throw in the towel and ready to quit, you always had to be reminded of, okay, God, why am I doing this? What is it that you put inside of me that pushed me to want to do something great for your kingdom?Jamie Barfield — It was never about a paycheck. It was never about being on an amazing podcast like this. It was never about speaking at conferences. It was always about reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ and doing our best to get that out there. And so in moments where you wanted to throw in the towel and you wanted to quit, you always go back to those seasons of, okay, God, why did you call me into this to begin with?Rich Birch — And what, what, when you answer that question in your own life, where does that, but you know, kind of, when you think about the why, how, what is what’s the kind of image that comes to mind or language that you wrap around for, for you?Jamie Barfield — I’m very visual. So I think of standing before the throne of God one day and him saying, well done, my good and faithful servant.Rich Birch — So good.Jamie Barfield —And I’m so it’s going to be such a beautiful moment, but it also also motivates me .bBecause I think in that moment that I’m going to go in there almost nervous of the time that I wasted or the time that I gave up or the time that I… And I’m so I’m so motivated by that moment that I just want to stand there and have him look at me with a big smile on his face and say, you did it. You did everything that I put before you to do. You did it. Good job, servant.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, early on, if we could talk for real here… Jamie Barfield — For real. Rich Birch — …like church planting, man, it’s it’s it’s tough.Jamie Barfield — It’s the hardest thing ever.Rich Birch — And those early years, yeah, those early years, it’s like, I don’t know. It’s like, you’re not rolling in cash. You don’t have the resources. You don’t have the people. Man, how how did that go for you? The kind of scarcity? How did that shape the way you lead, innovate? Talk us through that piece of the puzzle.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, lack of money, lack of volunteers, lack of influence in the community. You know, it it feels like you know the the word attached to church planting so often is lack. I don’t have enough.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Jamie Barfield — And that mindset inside of church planters, it’s going to be the thing that either crushes them or is going to cause them to innovate. For us, we just decided it was going to be the thing that pushed us or that drove us. And so the scarcity mindset that you spoke about at you know the beginning of ministry was some some things that were birthed inside of us that created some stewardship principles that we still follow today at our church. You know, we’re very much penny pinchers. We’re going to try the best to figure out the best way rather than just throwing money at problems.Jamie Barfield — You know, I got buddies that, you you know, with the best of intentions, they just think that they can you you know, throw money at situations or at problems and it’s going to fix everything. And our mindset is just, we’re just going to be innovative. We’re going to try to figure this out and do it the best way we can without expecting that money is going to fix everything, or that volunteers are going to fix everything, or that influence is going to fix everything. So even at the start, all of that lack created or birthed something in us that has followed with us for the last 18 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d I’d love to talk a bit a bit a bit more about that. Well, first of all, I think it’s I think it’s good that you’re underlining mindset. I know for me as a leader, and it took me way too long to figure out that like kind of my approach. You know, I’m not like, ah you know, name it and claim it kind of person. I don’t think I can like, you know, I can’t just like make stuff up.Jamie Barfield — Sure.Rich Birch — But what I do know is if I don’t have the faith for it, if I don’t believe that God’s going to do something, then it doesn’t happen. Jamie Barfield — Yeah, for sure. Rich Birch — And so I’m not sure how that happens. There’s like a weird connection there between what I believe about faith and like, and I probably some people are like, man, this guy’s got bad theology. But talk us through that mindset and how, maybe give us a couple examples of how that has impacted you even today.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, yeah. So I agree completely. The the you know concept of name it and claim it versus you got to have faith and where is that balance? And I’m unsure as well, probably got bad theology as well. But I definitely think that, you know especially early on, like it was, God, I see big things in our future. And I’m not sure how to get to big things, but I know I can’t settle with these things that we have now. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good.Jamie Barfield — So I have to press forward to make the things that we have in our hand now. I have to be a good steward of what you’ve given me. You know, he is faithful with little. You’re going to reward us with much. So, God, I’ve got to be faithful with what you put in my hands now.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Jamie Barfield — And I’m going to do the absolute best with this that I have in my hand now. But I’m going to do everything I can to make this thing better. Because I see bigger, because I see greater in front of us. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — And so I’m not going to just stop here and say, well, this is all that I have. This is this is all that I’m ever going to be. I’m going to do more for you with what you placed in my hands. I’m going to be that servant that whenever you walk away from me, you gave me two talents. I’m go to do my best to turn it into four.Rich Birch — Yeah that’s, yeah, that’s amazing. That’s that’s so good. I love, you know, we wanna be multipliers of what, you know, what’s given. And I think the the financial stewardship thing makes sense. I think that’s understandable. You can see where, man, we gotta be good we gotta use the resources we have.Rich Birch — What about on the people side? When you think about kind of being good stewards of your people, maybe developing leaders, that sort of thing, how does that work? What practices have you helped has have you kind of kept this mindset of innovation, kind of getting the most out of our people, that sort of thing. How has that impacted how what you do even today?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, so I grew up in a very small church, you know maybe 70, 80 people. Maybe on on big Sundays we had 120 on Easter or something of that nature. And I saw leaders being thrown into situations, not trained well, not knowing church culture, not knowing what expectations were, not knowing the pastor’s heart. I saw all of that growing up.Jamie Barfield — And those leaders that were thrown in oftentimes would find themselves burnt out by focusing on things that they really had no passion for. And the pastor maybe didn’t know what the thing inside of them that was the thing that really you know would drive them. And so we just decided whenever, you know, probably 10 or 12 years ago, we just decided we were going to create a process of knowing our our leaders and our leaders knowing me well.Jamie Barfield — And so so we we go through a you know, I tell them all the time as we do a 12 week course. It’s not really we call it leadership development, but it’s not really leadership development. It’s more about you have to learn this culture. You have to learn my heart and my expectations for you. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — But I’ve also got to learn your story, and your passion, and your vision. Because I want us to walk away from this 12 weeks together, I want to walk away better prepared for a future together. And so as you’re walking this 12 weeks out with me, you’re you you know they’re serving everywhere in the church and serving in kids ministry one week and you know making coffee one week and all of the things. But what we’re learning in that season together is expectation. And you’re learning me and I’m learning you, but we’re putting expectation on what it takes to be a leader. And so as they finish this 12-week process with me, they then go into this pool of just to even be considered to be a leader in our church. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s interesting.Jamie Barfield — So everybody that’s ever been a leader in our church, before they ever get to a leadership role, they’re a part of this pool because they’ve been through this 12-week journey with me. And I’m there with these people every step along the way, because again, I’ve seen it done so poorly that I just wanted to make sure that my fingerprint was upon leaders and volunteers in such a way. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Jamie Barfield — You know, there’s again, go back to a parable of Jesus, you know, the sower and the seed, you know, there’s this, there’s this principle of where you sow, if you sow in good soil, that it’s going to produce a good fruit. And so these people that are, that are, have a passion for the kingdom of God and want to do something great for the kingdom of God, those are the people that I want to invest my time, effort, and energy into because those are the people that are going to produce the, the largest or most productive harvest.Rich Birch — Okay. I want to double click on this. Jamie Barfield — For sure. Rich Birch — There’s a ah bunch there that I want to unpack… Jamie Barfield — For sure. Rich Birch — …which is fantastic. So how, so how do you identify or how does your team identify people that land in this 12 weeks? And then I’d love to talk a little bit about, you know, the, actually the mechanics of it what’s going on in those 12 weeks.Jamie Barfield — They have to be recommended by a leader in our church.Rich Birch — Okay.Jamie Barfield — It’s the only way to join the 12-week journey.Rich Birch — Okay.Jamie Barfield — So a leader in our church sees them, watches them serve or whatever inside of the church, and then they recommend them to my assistant, and we we start the journey with them.Rich Birch — Okay. And those, is it like you run it in like a couple of seasons during the year? It’s a class and like a cohort matter. What’s the content? Just give us a ah a bit of, you know, a bit more about that.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, we do we do two… Yeah, we do two semesters of it. So twice a year we run it. And it is ah one night a week. We meet at the church. We go through ah hour, hour and a half you know class type setting with constant homework through the week. And homework looks as simple as, you know, we we read the book, Andy Stanley, Next Generation Leader. We read through that together.Jamie Barfield — Homework is serving assignments on Sunday. Homework is cleaning the church. You know, little things like that that just creates this culture, this this servanthood inside of them. So once ah once a week, we’re here at the church learning together. But then through the week, we’re constantly um connected and, um you know, again, working, efforting to to sharpen them through the 12 weeks.Rich Birch — That’s cool. And you know you mentioned it multiple times. So you’ve really kept ownership of this group. They’re meeting with you. That I want to underline for folks that are listening in.Jamie Barfield — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, your church you said is 2,500 people. There’s a lot of pastors of a church of 2,500 that would say, hey, I don’t have time to meet with this. Kind of unpack that a little bit more. I know you mentioned this already, but I want to kind of unpack what what are you thinking about there? What’s the advantage? How far does that scale, you think?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, I am a huge advocate of whatever it is that you do, whatever’s on your plate. There’s some things that you have to do as a pastor or as a leader. And leadership development ought to be something that you have your fingerprint on. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Jamie Barfield — Whether it’s [inaudible] as much as mine is or whether it’s just, hey, I’m creating class and I’m stepping in every now and then, but somewhere, somehow, you have to be touching your leaders in the church and they have to know your heart. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jamie Barfield — Whenever they go away from this class and they’re serving wherever, and maybe even they’re on a campus or doing whatever they’re doing, when they walk away from me, they know me, they know my heart, they know my, my expectations.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jamie Barfield — And so I don’t have to go into, you know, seasons and step into kids ministry and try to put out fires and fix problems because they know me from the start before they ever get involved in certain ministries. They already know me and already know my heart. And so it just makes the the family community atmosphere of the church healthier…Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — …because from from birth, this is from birth. This isn’t something that we’re trying to teach on the run. This is something we teach from birth to through the process. And then whenever they launch into whatever ministry they um lead or or serve in they already have all the foundational principles, all the pillars are built.Rich Birch — That’s interesting. I love it. That’s, that’s great to learn more about. Talk to me about an expectation that ah that you have of your leaders that might be a little bit different. That might be like, oh, hey, it’s, you know, kind of in the secret sauce category that you’re like, hey, this is a part of what God’s using when, you know, hey, if you’re leading here, this is what we want you to be like, or something activity or something like that.Jamie Barfield — Yeah. So so for instance, servanthood is something that I’m very passionate about. I am a servant. I expect leaders here at this church to be servants. I think Jesus is the greatest leader of all time, and he was a servant leader. It’s who he was. It was a part of his you know, character. And so, so servanthood is something that we, my wife and I portray to our leadership. And then we give expectation that this is what we expect from leaders inside of our church and throughout every department of our church.Jamie Barfield — I think that is, that is, you know, something as simple as when you see some trash in the parking lot, as you’re walking up, you pick it up. All the way to when we’re having church events here, my wife and I are the last ones to eat. We’re not first in line. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — We’re making sure everybody else is served because we want we want to make sure that we are servant leaders inside of our our team.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So I’d love to know, you guys have launched multiple locations, obviously multiple services within that. Multiplication is, to me, is a sign that you’re developing leaders. There’s something good happening on that front. You can’t do that unless you, you know, have multiplied leaders. Talk us through some of the lessons you’ve learned around multiplication as it relates to leadership development and how that all works together.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, I will say that good leaders multiply themselves, but so do bad leaders. Rich Birch — Oh gosh, that’s true. Oh man.Jamie Barfield — And so that’s and so that’s that that’s that’s dangerous as well. Rich Birch — Yes. Jamie Barfield — And so as as we multiplied, you know, from multiple services to, you know, multiple campuses and all the things that come with multiplication, as we have walked through the seasons of multiplication, we’ve always identified early the needs that were going to be present and tried our best to make an effort to make them not as painful as they could have been if we wouldn’t have identified them.Jamie Barfield — And so something as simple as you know whenever we you know we were talking about launching multiple services, when when we launched into multiple times, we’ve launched into multiple services and been able to you know, through growth, knock out walls and go back to one and then we’re at two and then we’re at three, knock out a wall, back to one, two, three. And then right at COVID, we were doing four. But the the healthiest way that we ever launched a service was we did a 8 a.m. and a 10 a.m. The 8 a.m. was for volunteers only. So it was kids’ workers. It was, you know, we did, but did we did a full service. We did the band. We did I did my full sermon. It was volunteers only, but you’re welcome to come. Rich Birch — Right. Jamie Barfield — But this is strictly, you know, we’re focusing on volunteers. But then whenever we launched into two, as that second service filled up, we launched into two. We completely changed service times. What was a 10 a.m. service, now we went to 9 and 11. So then everybody was forced and instead instead of saying, oh, well, this is my service time. Now everybody was forced to choose a different service time. Rich Birch — Right.Jamie Barfield — So the 8 a.m. people we you know went to the 9 a.m., obviously, and the 10 a.m. people had to choose, do I want to get up an hour early or do I want to come an hour later? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jamie Barfield — And so it was almost it was actually a 45 to 65 percent split whenever we went to the 9 and the 11. So it was the healthiest way we had ever done it, so incredibly beautiful.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — And so just, you know, if somebody’s watching this and they’re looking to go to two services, I would suggest have a volunteer service, go all in because that starts training your your band to do two services. It starts training your volunteers of what time they’d have to get there to be able to do multiple things. It kind of creates that buffer of a tension point in the future and being able to look look in advance to say, hey, let me let me work some of these issues out before we get there.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. um Kind of related to that, I feel like this is the year of like the three service questions, third service questions. Like I’ve had so many people in this last year reach out to me. I’ve written, I think three or four blog posts, probably 10,000 words on different stuff I’ve learned um about this because it’s like just keeps coming up. Like even today, literally today, I got an email about it this morning.Rich Birch — So talk me through what what you’ve done at Palmetto Pointe around identifying when we pull the trigger for more services. Is that what mix of that is like opportunistic—we’re creating new space—or it’s reactive, like which of how much of it’s proactive, reactive? And how do you, you know, your church is growing, you’re growing quickly. How do you, how do you keep a far enough ahead? Cause you can’t just decide, Hey, we’re going to do new services. You got to do planning to make it all happen. Talk us through what’s that look like? How are you kind of the, how, how do we know how to identify when we pull the trigger? That sort of thing. Talk us through what that looks like.Jamie Barfield — Yeah, reactive is terrible. I’ve done it twice. Reactive to, oh no, you know the parking lot’s full. Let’s plan a second service. You know, hat’s terribly difficult. You know, the proactive approach of, I see growth, here goes what, you know, we’re already talking about Easter next year, okay? Here goes how many people are gonna show up. How many services do we need for Easter? And then how much did we grow last year for Easter? So if those people come back, what can they expect the next week?Jamie Barfield — And so for me, it becomes, opportunistic, yes. Launching multiple services are going to help your church grow. But as you’re launching multiple services, the growth versus the attrition, how is this going to wear your team out? Is this going to wear your staff out? Is this going to wear your band out or your kids’ ministry workers out? And that balance of, okay, at what point do you press forward and what at what point do you pump the gas or pump the brakes? Jamie Barfield — And so I would just say for us, what we learned through this journey is, you know we want to make sure that when we launch into a another service that there’s a core group of people that are going to be a part of that service. I need you to I need you to say for nine months you’re going to be a part of this service and this is your thing.Jamie Barfield — And so when we launch into another service, we’re going to make sure that this group of people wants to be there, and this is their church and their service. And then for us, we’re going to make sure that we have a completely different staffed kids’ ministry, completely different group, so we’re not wearing out the already wore-out volunteers of kids’ ministry.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — And depending on the time slot, we’ve we’ve tried three different time slots for our third service, but depending on the time slot we choose, it potentially may be a completely different band as well. Maybe the same worship leader, but a completely different band. Because those are the really the two areas, kids ministry and band and the staff. Those are the three areas that are really going to wear you out with multiple services.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. That’s some really clear thinking there around that. Really appreciate that. You know, at 31%, if you continue to grow, I know you know this, you know, that’s like just less than two and a half years, you’ll end up doubling. Jamie Barfield — Right. Rich Birch — So you’ll be a church of 5,000 if you continue at this rate.Jamie Barfield — Crazy.Rich Birch — And that that becomes difficult to stay in front of. You know, I’ve led in churches that are growing at that rate. And it’s it’s hard to to keep the skis out in front, you know, keep things moving in the right direction.Rich Birch — Let’s pivot in a totally different direction. I want to take advantage of the fact that you’re a district overseer, in your movement. From your perspective, from your vantage point, what are you seeing across the church these days as it comes to growth and and challenges? And kind of what are you learning as you’re in that kind of coach seat?Rich Birch — I’m taking advantage of the fact that you’re coaching other leaders.Jamie Barfield — I actually love that you asked me this question because I was talking with a guy yesterday, and we were talking about how smaller churches specifically, those pastors are really struggling with grasping what their expectations of congregants are, and what the congregants’ expectations of the church should be.Jamie Barfield — We as small you know smaller church pastors specifically, but we expect them to show up and to give and to serve and to connect, but they don’t have those same expectations on their life. So 30, 40 years ago, those were the expectations of a church attender.Rich Birch — Right.Jamie Barfield — Now they’re not.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Jamie Barfield — And so we have these unrealistic expectations that are creating frustrations from the pulpit to the pew. And I think it’s it’s creating this disconnect, or or honestly, I’ve seen some pastors even preach maybe very angry towards their congregation because of the unrealistic expectations placed upon those people. And so I would say maybe just to the smaller church pastor, which again is 80% of America, you know…Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yep.Jamie Barfield — …those those guys listening to this, maybe be more understanding of how life has changed in the last 30 or 40 years. I’m not saying lower our standards of righteousness or scriptural truth, but understand that travel ball is a thing and it’s always going to be a thing. And you know, school plays and you know, families going on vacation. Rich Birch — Right.Jamie Barfield — Man, we celebrate when families go on vacation. I’m not mad at you for taking a vacation because I want a vacation, you know? Rich Birch — Yes.Jamie Barfield — And so we celebrate when families go on vacation. So just creating realistic expectations for the congregation rather than what the, what the expectations were 30 or 40 years ago.Rich Birch — That’s good. I like that. You know understanding where people are are today and not you know not overburdening them with ah a previous model. I think that’s a really good word for sure. How can we think about that same pastor that maybe sees that frustration and and takes the, you know, the pastoral word of like, yes, I’m not going to exacerbate my people, but I want to help clearly articulate. I kind of want to point to a brighter future for them. Jamie Barfield — For sure.Rich Birch — How do I what what would you suggest to them? How do you how should we do that? Jamie Barfield — Well, first off, I would say one of the things that I see giving life to pastors is them connecting with other pastors. Rich Birch — So true.Jamie Barfield — I would just encourage a pastor watching this to make sure that he has or she has somebody in their life that’s outside of the bubble of their own church that may be going through something similar to their to what they’re going through.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — And I just think pastors encouraging pastors. We’re on the same team. We’re in this together. Pastors, encouraging pastors. I love what you do here where you celebrate ministries and what they’re doing. I just see that giving such life to um to other pastors that are discouraged and frustrated and aggravated. So I would start there. I would say, man, pastors, find another pastor and speak life into them.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — Maybe maybe the second thing I would say is you know maybe maybe an encouragement to, you know, to pastors who have wanted to try something new and try something different. Maybe just an encouragement to you know and to to do it, man. Just do it. Just try it.Rich Birch — Give it a try.Jamie Barfield — See what happens. Throw spaghetti up against the wall and see what sticks.Rich Birch — You get a lot of grace from most, I think most of the people in our churches, we have the the negative voice person in our head, the person that like doesn’t love what we do and is like a complainer or whatever, but that’s like a rare minority in most churches. Jamie Barfield — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like most of the people in the church are cheering for the pastor, cheering for the leaders… Jamie Barfield — That’s right. Rich Birch — …and are like, man, I love that guy. I love that girl. And if you were to say, Hey, I’d love us to try this thing. It’s just a test. Let’s see what happens. Most people would be like, let’s do it, you know, and, and I, you know, that’ll be fine. And if it goes bad, then don’t take yourself too serious and say, well, we tried that. That didn’t work. And that’s okay. um Yeah, that’s good. I love that. That’s a great word for sure.Jamie Barfield — Yeah. Agree. Agree completely. Agree completely.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Well, just as we’re kind of landing today’s episode, any final words as we think about for people that are listening in about, you know, what you’ve learned through the years? I love the mindset stuff we’ve been talking about and just this whole area of like our our you know our approach to scarcity, how that works. But anything else you’d love us to think about today as we’re hanging up today?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, yeah um maybe maybe maybe just to um to the guys that are feeling guys and gals that are feeling stuck, um you know maybe maybe short on everything. Lack is a big thing. Here goes here would be my encouragement. Make every Sunday amazing the best you can, but pick one day and throw all of your energy towards that one day. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jamie Barfield — Maybe it’s Christmas Eve service coming up, or maybe it’s an Easter service or Mother’s Day or, you know, a manufactured big day, ah you know, a back to church Sunday or something of that nature. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jamie Barfield — Pick a day and throw all of your energy towards that one day. Pick a person and start investing in a person. You may not be able to do a leadership development process, but pick a person and start investing your life into that person.Rich Birch — Dude, that’s so good.Jamie Barfield — Pick one event in the community and just show up for it. Just you know wear a church shirt and show up for the event and shake hands and hug necks and tell everybody, hey, you know. Pick one area of ministry and you know you know go go to your kids’ ministry and say, how can I make this better? You don’t have to fix it all right now. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Jamie Barfield — You don’t have to you don’t have to be great at everything right now. You don’t have to have the most amazing, you know, Mother’s Day yet. But man, you can find one thing and just start focusing on something. And I think this is where that mindset of there’s more out there. I’m going to focus on something and make this one thing that God has put in my hand. I’m going to make this thing better.Rich Birch — Dude, that is such good advice. You know, don’t drown in the all the things you wish you could do. Pick one thing and just do it. I love that. Jamie Barfield — Pick one thing and do it.Rich Birch — A friend of mine was a church planter and i was like, I think it was either the first or second Easter they did they went all in on the like Easter egg drop, which I know lots of people have done. But it was a smash success for them. They, you know, it was like five times their normal attendance. It was fantastic. The local news showed up. It was, and it gave, man, it breathed energy into the church for months. Jamie Barfield — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — Like they lived off of that because it was like, hey, that was a win. Yeah, that’s, that’s so good. Well, this has been a great conversation today. Rich Birch — I love talking to church planters. You know, I was recently with a leader of a church. We were walking around his facility and their buildings about 250,000 square feet, giant building. And he was talking about himself as a church planter. He was like, you know, referring to that. Rich Birch — And and I joked with him. I said, well, at what point do you stop being a church planter? Like when you, you know, when you you just are doing a $20 million dollars building or whatever, I think, you know, somewhere along the line. But he’s like, no, once a church planter, always a church planter. We’re always, ah you know, the same thing. So I’ve really appreciated this similar conversation today.Jamie Barfield — That’s exactly right. Rich Birch — Jamie, if people want to track with you or track with the church, where do we want to send them online?Jamie Barfield — Yeah, palmettopointechurch.com, it’s all over social media.Rich Birch — Perfect.Jamie Barfield — pastorjamieb, all of all of the social media handles are that. Love to connect with them…Rich Birch — That’s great.Jamie Barfield — …palmettopointechurch.com, I’d love to connect. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Jamie. Really appreciate you being here today, sir.Jamie Barfield — Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with John Sellers, Executive Pastor of Locations and a location pastor at Journey Church in Central Florida. Journey is one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, with a thriving online community, three campuses, and a fourth location on the way. Is your church […]

In this special workshop episode, Rich Birch unpacks the same five systems thriving churches use to move from hoping for growth to launching it. If you've ever felt like your church's momentum is hard to sustain—or that your people love your church but don't naturally invite—this episode gives you a simple roadmap to turn things […]

Nice is not a growth strategy. When I was a young adult, I worked at a Christian summer camp called Camp Mini-Yo-We. You know the place; canoes skimming across a glassy lake, worship songs around a campfire that somehow made the stars feel closer, friendships soldered together over bug juice and burnt marshmallows. It was […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Jeff Warren, Senior Pastor of Park Cities Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas. Founded 86 years ago, PCBC is a fast-growing multicultural, multilingual, and multigenerational church. What does it mean to stay faithful when leadership gets hard? In this candid conversation, Jeff shares […]

Most churches are overspending on visibility and under-investing in invitations. In the late 1900s

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Lucinda Ross, Central Group Leader of Communications at Life.Church, one of the most influential and innovative churches in the world. Since its founding in 1996, Life.Church has grown to more than 40 locations across the U.S. and a massive global online presence. […]

Let's start with a confession. I've misdiagnosed “dead” more times than I care to admit…more than a coroner in a zombie movie marathon. I have this bad habit of declaring the demise of trends that are, in fact, quietly entering their prime. I thought podcasts were “saturated” back in 2013 when I started the unSeminary […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Luke Cornwell, Communications Pastor at Realife Church in Indiana. Founded in 2007, Realife has grown into one of the fastest-growing churches in America with two thriving campuses, a STEAM Academy for preschoolers, and a partnership with Southeastern University. Luke brings a unique […]

In 8th grade, I thought I was unstoppable. A growth spurt gave me height, leverage, and what felt like destiny. I could clear high jump bars with a scissors kick while others struggled. No training, no technique, just raw advantage. I beat everyone in my school, made it to my town's track and field meet, […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Eric Garza, Executive Pastor at Cross Church in Texas. Founded in 1995, Cross Church has grown into one of the fastest-growing churches in America, with 12 campuses across the Rio Grande Valley and beyond. With a unique focus on bilingual ministry, Cross […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dr. Warren Bird—author, researcher, and one of the most trusted voices in church leadership studies. Warren has co-authored over 35 books for pastors and church leaders, including Hero Maker, Better Together, Next, Resilience Factor, and his newest, Becoming a Future-Ready Church. Known […]

Early in our marriage, rent ate half our income. At the end of one of our first months living together, we had $35 total left for a week's worth of groceries. Christine was stressed. (Totally understandable.) I started building a compelling, highly spiritual case for “maybe we skip giving this month.” Christine cut through my […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Lane Lowery, Executive Pastor of Warren Church in South Carolina and Georgia. Founded in 1898, Warren is one of the fastest-growing churches in America, with over 7,000 members across its campuses. Known for its Southern hospitality, Bible teaching, and focus on whole-person […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dr. Chris Vaught, lead pastor of Connection Point Church (CPC) in Missouri. Under his leadership, CPC has grown from 300 people in 2011 to over 2,500 today across multiple campuses. With a passion for raising up the next generation of kingdom leaders, […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Ashley Lentz from Lutheran Church of Hope in Iowa. As the Connections Pastor at one of the largest and fastest-growing churches in the country, Ashley brings a wealth of practical insight into creating personal connection in a growing church. Struggling to connect new guests and […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by returning guest and friend of the show, Dave Miller. With a background in worship and creative arts ministry across Las Vegas, Kentucky, and Michigan, Dave now leads Leadership Pathway, an organization focused on helping the next generation of church leaders take their healthiest first steps […]

In this special rushed episode of the unSeminary Podcast, Rich unpacks the biggest nonfiction book launch in history: Alex Hormozi's $100M Book Launch. Alex didn't rely on TikTok trends, billboards, or mass media. Instead, he orchestrated a carefully choreographed campaign that leaned heavily on email — sometimes sending seven to nine emails in a single […]

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Taylor Scott-Reimer, a dynamic speaker, advocate, and author of She Believed: Recovering the Fierce Faith of the Women of Scripture — and Ourselves. Is your church truly inviting the full participation of women? Are female leaders empowered to speak, shape, and serve—or are […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Zenzo Matoga, Senior Pastor of Impact Church in Boston, Massachusetts. Originally from Malawi, Africa, Zenzo brings a passion for evangelism shaped by the revival crusades of Reinhard Bonnke. Under Zenzo's leadership, Impact Church has become one of the fastest-growing churches in America, […]

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of unSeminary! A quick heads-up: Rich experienced some sound issues during the recording; thank you for bearing with us. Fortunately, our guest, Robert Watson, comes through loud and clear, and you won't want to miss the incredible insights he shares. Thanks for your grace and enjoy the conversation! Welcome back to […]

In this special roundup episode of the unSeminary podcast, we highlight key insights from three previously recorded interviews focused on strengthening church staff teams. In celebration of the Summer 2025 issue of Executive Pastor Magazine, this curated compilation revisits rich conversations with leadership experts Dr. Ryan Hartwig and Dr. Warren Bird, executive pastor Ken McAnulty […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Steece Hayes, a bi-vocational pastor and account manager at Higher Ground Managed IT, part of the ACS Technologies family. Is your ministry struggling with unreliable tech, security risks, or outdated systems—and you're not even sure where to begin fixing it? Tune in as Steece brings […]

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of unSeminary! A quick heads-up: Rich experienced some sound issues during the recording; thank you for bearing with us. Fortunately, our guest Yolanda comes through loud and clear, and you won't want to miss the incredible insights she shares. Thanks for your grace and enjoy the conversation! Do you ever feel […]

You're not alone. Many churches hope for big impact at Christmas but end up seeing minimal growth, and it's not because your people don't care or your services aren't good enough. In this final installment of our 3-part summer series on planning for Christmas, Rich Birch unpacks the real reasons why churches miss the mark—and […]

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Devin Goins, Executive Pastor of Strategic Development at Biltmore Church in western North Carolina, one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. Is your church growing but you're struggling to keep your team aligned and rowing in the same direction? Tune in as Devin outlines a […]

What if you could double your church's attendance this Christmas … just by doing what other growing churches already do? In this second installment of our special Christmas planning series, Rich Birch unpacks three real-life examples from churches that didn't leave Christmas up to chance—and saw incredible results. These churches represent different regions and contexts, […]

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Mike Winger, Executive Pastor at Mosaic Christian Church in the Baltimore-Washington area. What does it take to launch a bold new vision while carrying the weight of financial obstacles? Tune in as Mike unpacks the multi-year process that led to Mosaic's Unlimited campaign—one […]

Is your church treating Christmas like the massive growth opportunity it truly is? In today's solo episode, Rich explores why Christmas remains the most strategic moment in the church calendar for reaching new people, even in a post-pandemic world. Drawing on compelling stats and years of experience helping churches grow, Rich makes a compelling case […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dr. Charles Stone, seasoned pastor, author, and leadership coach. Feeling overwhelmed by the constant demands of ministry? Looking for biblical practices that can help reduce anxiety and fuel long-term health? Tune in as Charles shares insights from his latest book, Stress Less, blending timeless biblical […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Russ Ewell, Executive Minister at Bay Area Christian Church (BACC) in California and founder of Deep Spirituality. How can churches meaningfully engage and empower the next generation of leaders? With campuses across Silicon Valley and a deep commitment to developing future leaders, […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Jason Hanash, the founding and lead pastor of Discovery Church in California—one of the fastest growing churches in the country. How do you restructure your staff leadership to keep pace with rapid church growth? Tune in as Jason shares how Discovery evolved from a living […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast! Today we're talking with Craig Smith, Lead Pastor of Mission Hills Church in Colorado—an 80+ year-old multisite church and one of the fastest-growing in the country. Is your church growing faster than your systems can handle? Do you ever feel like your team is working hard but not aligned? […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Shayla McCormick, Executive Pastor at Coastal Community Church, a thriving multisite church in South Florida known for its authentic culture and rapid growth. How do you build and protect a thriving staff culture as your church grows? Tune in as Shayla offers practical, actionable insight […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Bob Riedy, Senior Pastor of Church of the Open Door in Pennsylvania. After leading one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, Bob found himself facing a personal and professional breakdown. In this deeply transparent episode, he shares his journey through burnout, […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today, we're talking with Quovadis Marshall (Pastor Q), Lead Pastor at Hope City Church in Waterloo, Iowa. Caught up in a life of gangs and violence, he became incarcerated at nineteen years old. However, Pastor Q experienced a life-transforming encounter with Christ through the Prison Fellowship Academy Program. Now […]

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we're joined by Danny Anderson, Lead Pastor of Emmanuel Church in Indiana, and Rachel Long, founder of the Joshua Center. They share their story of navigating a significant transition when Rachel moved from being the Executive Pastor at Emmanuel Church […]

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Eric Smith, founder and lead pastor of Hope City Church in Florida and co-creator of SermonDone. Are you a pastor who's feeling the pressure of sermon prep each week? Wondering how you can save time on research and content creation without compromising the quality […]

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're joined today by Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe, a church design and project management firm that helps growing ministries align their physical spaces with their mission. With a background in engineering and church leadership, Aaron brings unique insights into how churches can strategically […]

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast during our All About Multisite month. Today we're talking with David Ashcraft, CEO and President of the Global Leadership Network (GLN), and former Senior Pastor of LCBC Church in Pennsylvania. Are you wrestling with growing pains as your church multiplies? How does an expanding multisite church keep its vision […]

Let's face it: talking finances can be uncomfortable, but it's a critical conversation, especially in multisite ministry. Today, I'm tackling one of the toughest—and most essential—questions in multisite: How do we fund, sustain, and scale financially healthy campuses? Throughout our All About Multisite series, I'm providing practical answers every Wednesday and hosting insightful interviews with […]

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. In this All About Multisite month podcast episode we're talking with Omar Giritli, Lead Pastor, and Carlos Cardenas, Executive Pastor at Christ Fellowship. With campuses spread across Miami, the Caribbean and South America, Christ Fellowship has truly become a model of how to lead a diverse, multi-generational […]

The multisite journey isn't always smooth—even thriving churches experience growing pains. Today, I'm busting some of the biggest myths and offering practical insights to overcome common struggles within multisite churches. Every week during All About Multisite month, I'm diving deep into practical solutions on Wednesdays and hosting behind-the-scenes conversations with multisite leaders on Thursdays. Today's […]

Welcome back to another special All About Multisite episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're joined today by Bo Chancey (Senior Pastor) and Jeremy Peterson (Executive Pastor) from One Church, a growing multisite church based in New Hampshire. With four physical “outposts” and a thriving online presence, One Church is reaching communities across rural and suburban […]

Multisite ministry sounds great—one church, many locations—but practically speaking, balancing centralized consistency with local campus adaptations is a real challenge. In today's episode of the All About Multisite series, I want to help you manage this important balance effectively. Throughout this series, I'm sharing practical wisdom every Wednesday and insightful interviews with successful multisite churches […]

Thanks for joining us for this special episode of the unSeminary podcast as we kick off All About Multisite month. In this conversation, we're joined by Rick Langston and Daniel Simmons from The Summit Church in North Carolina. Rick serves as the Executive Pastor of Strategic Initiatives, and Daniel is the Executive Pastor of Campuses […]

Multisite churches have dramatically increased—from just a few hundred in the early 2000s to over 5,000 today. I've had the honor of being at the core this movement for nearly 2.5 decades, having led 13 multisite launches and coached many more. My goal in this solo episode is to share insights from my own experience […]

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. In this episode we're talking with Kara Powell, the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute and Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary. How is your church engaging with the next generation? Building connection and trust with young people can be difficult in today's world. […]