Revenue on the Rocks

I do an "ask me anything" style interview to ask Ben questions about his career and journey at Navattic. We reflect on hosting this podcast, changing from an IC to a manager, and how our approach to sales and marketing has changed over the past few years. And share our favorite drinks from the season. I drink rosé

Our advisor and product marketing expert, Yi Lin, interviews Ben to explore the relationship between product marketing and sales.She asks about sales reps' day-to-day, what makes top performers stand out, and how product marketers can support sales beyond decks. We also talk about why product marketers struggle more with sales (apparently more than product teams), collateral for sales reps, and how product marketers can build relationships with high-performing reps.Yi Lin and I drink water Ben drinks Coors Banquet

Ben does an "ask me anything" style interview to ask me questions he's always wanted to know about marketing. We talk about what makes each marketing role hard, debate whether sales or marketing should own outbound, and share our thoughts on personal LinkedIn branding for founders and sales reps. Ben and I were being uncreative and both just drank water

Ben and I discuss our recent sales kickoff (SKO) in Dallas and Natalie's transition to a product marketing role at Navattic. We cover why you should bring marketing leadership to SKOs. My presentation about my role leading product marketing role at the SKO and why the company decided to make this transition at this stage of growth. Plus Ben's experience planning and executing his first full SKO, why SKOs are so important for sales teams, and how to manage energy levels at company events.I drink a botanical tea-based liquor

Ben Pearson and I chat about how we built a sales process focused on buyer experience at Navattic. I interview Ben on how he developed his sales philosophy when he joined the company and the balance between creating a winning culture and doing what is best for prospects. We also go into why we don't use traditional sales methodologies, how we hire for autonomy and high standards, and why Ben is obsessed with discovery. Ben drinks red wine

Ben Pearson and I kick off 2025 by chatting about our predictions and observations for B2B buying, marketing, and sales this year. We discuss topics like LinkedIn's evolution, the future of PLG motions (expanding beyond just free trials), how marketing may change with the rise of specialized freelancers, customers getting involved earlier in the buyer journey, and if competitors will ever join together to help educate the market. Ben drinks an On The Rocks premixed cocktail (Old Fashioned)

Ben and I reflect on our first customer event in New York City (if you didn't listen to our last episode we talked about planning the event in that one). We discuss what made it different from typical B2B conferences like an intimate venue, not too packed agenda, and customer-only attendees.We share the event's impact, like positive feedback from attendees and how that helped inform our 2025 events strategy. I drink honey Jack whiskey on the rocks

Ben and I discuss planning and hosting our upcoming first-ever customer event for Navattic in New York City. We chat about how we got early customer feedback to help set the event agenda and how we made it different than most user conferences. I talk about practicing throwing smaller events leading up to it and lessons learned during previous events. And Ben asks how marketers show ROI for customer events like this. I drink tea

Ben Pearson and I discuss our experience hiring at startups and our stories of how we got hired at Navattic. We cover why you want to love the product/problem at a startup, approaching startups proactively, and how to show passion and adaptability in the hiring process.We also get into the differences between hiring for sales and marketing roles. And try to offer advice for both job seekers and hiring managers. I drink orange wine

One month after our freemium launch, Ben Pearson and I deep dive into the highs and lows of the launch. We discuss everything from celebrating the small wins, challenges when managing a team transitioning to PLG, selling experimentation, and adapting to a new unknown GTM motion. Plus how we both felt emotionally pre and post-launch week and how we handled the excitement and stress. I drink tea

In our season three premiere we announce that we launched a Product-Led Growth (PLG) motion at Navattic.We discuss our initial reservations, what we've learned, and the freakouts we both had while introducing a freemium plan. We also talk about how to align the sales team and leadership to adapt to selling to PQLs (product-qualified leads). Plus why we adopted PLG (even though we had a successful sales motion), potential long-term growth from PLG, and anxiety during the adjustment period. I drink Catch & Release wine

In this bonus episode of the Revenue on the Rocks - we collaborated with the We're Not Marketers team to discuss the disconnect between sales and product marketers. Specifically, we cover:1) Why salespeople think they understand the customer better 2) How win-loss research can fill in gaps from loss reasons 3) Marketing and sales not understanding each other's metrics or daily pressures4) How founders or VCs can make it difficult to align on one ICP 5) Why marketers should shadow sales calls to gain firsthand experience6) Ways to build a rapport with sales as a marketerEric drinks a mezcal on the rocks

In the last episode of Season 2 - we discuss the relationship between go-to-market and product with our co-founder and Head of Product at Navattic, Randy Frank.Specifically, we cover:1) How to identify when a product role is needed2) Ways to align on a product roadmap and not get distracted3) Why you need to filter customer feedback to prioritize valuable features4) Balancing innovative features and competitive offerings5) Ways to communicate product updates to go-to-market teams6) How to manage expectations for product launch timelines and scopeRandy drinks a local DC lager

In Episode 14 of Season 2 - after throwing our first-ever CMO dinner we share the behind-the-scenes of what goes into planning a B2B dinner. And we bring on our co-sponsor and events expert Regina Magaril from Mutiny to rehash learnings from the events. Specifically, we cover:1) Event planning timeline and how we pull in other partners2) How to assign clear owners to event tasks 3) What are our biggest fears around events 4) Should you invite sales team members to your events 5) How to fix on-day event problems like not enough attendees6) Ways to get inspiration from events outside B2BRegina drinks Catch and Release Chardonnay

In Episode 13 of Season 2 - Ben and I talk about the stress of hitting quota at the end of the quarter for sales teams (fresh off of end of quarter at Navattic). Specifically, we cover:1) Why sales is laser-focused on hitting quota 2) Ben's experience with quota at other companies3) How marketing can not bother sales near the end of the quarter4) Ways to involve the entire sales team in setting quotas5) How hitting quota impacts the entire company6) Dissecting wins to help sales reps play to strengths and talents Ben drinks a whiskey

In Episode 12 of Season 2 - Ben and I go over our "failure lists" from being first-time startup leaders. We reflect on failures and lessons learned as startup executives and talk about the general benefits of keeping track of your failures. Specifically, we cover:1) Struggling to balance IC work and managing others2) Realizing a lack of documentation when onboarding new hires 3) Ways to improve communication between GTM and product on feature requests4) Why normal marketers are different from event marketers5) Trusting your founders and their direction for company growth6) How Ben and I make decisions now based on learning from these failuresBen drinks a coffee with whiskey ☕️I drink a Chianti

In Episode 11 of Season 2 - Ben and I reflect on our first official sales kickoff and the B2BMX conference. Plus we discuss the benefit of focusing in-person company events on just getting to know each other.Specifically, we cover:1) Why Ben decided to structure the SKO the way he did2) Connecting with employees to understand what motivates them3) How trust at the leadership level plays into running these types of events4) Fear and decision fatigue from marketers apparent at B2BMX5) Navigating awkward conference convosBen drinks water

In Episode 10 of Season 2 - a month into 2024 Ben and I give our take on how the software buying market compares to 2023. Specifically, we cover:1) Why everyone was so excited about 2024 vs 2023 2) Continued budget concerns for 20243) How more stakeholders/ departments are involved in the buying process4) A shift away from PLG to more wholistic self-serve buying 5) Why the market has been so competitive and ways to stand out6) A divide in marketing strategies for 2024 Ben drinks a Coors Banquet

In Episode 9 of Season 2 - Ben and I discuss our process for creating our new State of the Interactive Demo Report 2024. Specifically, we cover:1) How we sourced questions from our sales team for the report2) Why we use first-party product data vs survey data3) Ways we promoted the report and got early feedback4) How we designed the report to make it more sharable 5) What we changed about this report vs last year's report6) Fun games to help the sales team learn the dataBen drinks a Coors Banquet

In Episode 8 of Season 2 - Ben and I talk with Molly Bruckman from Mutiny about their widely successful Surv-ai-vor campaign and how they got sales bought into a unique, time-intensive, and creative campaign. Specifically, we cover:1) The origin story behind the Surv-ai-vor campign2) How sponsors were brought in and decision process for big prizes 3) Our experience as a sponsor and why we decided to sponsor4) Results from the campaign and the reactions from the sales team5) How Mutiny's amazing brand awareness helped fuel the campaign 6) Takeaways from the campaign around virality Molly drinks a rosemary gin and tonic

In this bonus episode, Ben and I talk about how to be a better software buyer. We usually talk about how to be better software sellers, but in this mini episode, we poke fun at ways that buyers could make the sales process a little smoother. Hope you enjoy and happy holidays ☃️

In Episode 6 of Season 2 - Natalie and Ben talk with Arthur Castillo (who has worked in both sales and marketing roles) to discuss the differences between the two departments. Specifically, they cover:1) Arthur's journey from sales to marketing and back to sales2) How B2B selling has changed in the past few years 3) The perspective shift from switching from one role to the next 4) How marketing and sales organize their schedule and celebrate wins5) What stereotypes hold up for each role6) Which role is harder: sales or marketingArthur drinks an "Arthur Old Fashioned"

In Episode 5 of Season 2 - Natalie and Ben dive into the nitty gritty of sales data, attribution, and intent with Kevin White to figure out what is the most helpful data for sales teams and how to best share that data. Specifically, they cover: 1) How to group data into digestible cohorts for sales teams 2) What types of data reps look at right before a sales call 3) Ways to use tech stack enrichment signals during a live call 4) Issues with generic intent data lacking identity and context 5) Taking an account-based approach and working from high to low intent 6) Shifting away from mass outreach to more precise messaging 7) Getting hands-on experience to get comfortable with data Kevin drinks a ginger sparkling water

In Episode 4 of Season 2 - Ben, our guest Dee Acosta, and I discuss what motivates salespeople and marketers. Specifically, we cover:1) Why salespeople are often motivated by things like winning, money, and fear of failure 2) Finding out in the interview process what a sales rep is motivated by 3) Why marketers are often motivated by things like creativity, recognition, and a seat at the table4) Ways to understand what motivates your team in a remote setting5) How to adapt your motivation strategies depending on the person or situation 6) Using empathy and vulnerability to better connect with your team Dee drinks a Coke Zero

In Episode 3 of Season 2 - Ben and I discuss the growing pains of startups as they transition from scrappy upstarts to more established companies.Specifically, we cover:1) The challenges of scaling processes and people as a company evolves 2) How founders and early employees must adapt as their roles change3) Striking a balance between structure and innovation 4) Getting candid feedback from your team5) Setting realistic goals when you have increased expectations6) Keeping employees happy and engaged as the company grows7) Maintaining the special sauce that fueled early tractionBen drinks a Miller Lite

In Episode 2 of Season 2 - Ben interviews me on the realities of being a solo marketer. Specifically, we cover:1) My background and how I fell in love with marketing2) Why I have chosen to be a solo marketer so far and the pros and cons3) How I prioritize and manage requests with limited resources 4) My process to decide what tools or freelancers I need5) Wins from my career including our approach to branding 6) Key learnings I have for other solo marketers starting out Ben drinks a Coors Banquet

In Episode 1 of Season 2 - Ben and I debate what factors actually sway prospects in a deal cycle. Specifically, we cover:1) What drives B2B buyers' decisions2) How much does positioning and branding affect buyer behavior 3) Three reasons why prospects choose one company over another 4) Pricing strategies and adjustments in a down economy5) Why sales reps may be fearful of a brand overhaul 6) How to address the elephant in the room with leadership to fix a broken sales cycle Ben drinks a Coors Banquet

In Episode 12 we discuss what it was like to create a podcast and what we learned about sales and marketing departments over the season. Specifically, we cover:1) Why we're taking a little break from the podcast for the summer2) How marketers are involved in a lot more and are much more analytical than they get credit for3) Ways to use sales intuition to your marketing advantage4) Why startups may want to hire a salesperson before a marketer5) How we decided on our ICP in the early days of Navattic6) Why we ended up making this podcast a year into working at Navattic togetherBen drinks an old-fashioned

In Episode 11 we speak with Brittany Brown Head of Enterprise Marketing at Lokalise. We talk all about how to ensure any new campaign or initiative is revenue driven and how to best collaborate on these initiatives with sales. Specifically, we cover: 1) Why sales teams perceive marketing as not revenue driven 2) Balancing brand-building marketing with revenue-driven marketing 3) How to align on one single ICP 4) Strategies to get buy-in for new campaigns or tools 5) When is the best time to share results with sales 6) How to switch from an MQL to accounts based mindset Brittany drinks a Sauvignon Blanc

In Episode 10 we speak with Nick Bennett founder of ClubPF, podcast host of the Anonymous marketer, and B2B creator. We talk all about how to adopt a people-first approach to your sales and marketing strategy and how to create a sales process prospects actually enjoy. Specifically, we cover: 1) Why B2B sales is usually so frustrating for prospects 2) How only listening to VCs and sales leaders at other companies can hurt your sales process 3) Ways to avoid a founder's "shinny object syndrome" through data and revenue-driven results 4) Strategies to get leadership on board with a people-first approach and how to overcome sales fears around it 5) Different compensation ideas for a people-first strategy 6) The future of the creator-economy and how it ties into a people-first approach Nick drinks a Dunkin cold brew

In Episode 9 we speak with Peter Kirk who runs RevOps at MadKudu and has built operations functions at multiple product-led and sales-led companies, including Lucid and BentoBox. We talk all about data, attribution, and the role of Revops in helping drive alignment - instead of damaging it. Specifically, we cover: 1) How Revops can build trust with sales when they first join an org 2) Sales confusion around the role of Revops 3) Why sales is often less reliant on sales data or reports 4) Who should have access to dashboards and the best cadence to share data with sales 5) Best channels to get the most important insights to sales without distracting them 6) How attribution and compensation can harm the sales and marketing relationship Peter drinks a spaghett

In Episode 8 we speak with Jason Oakley - founder of productive PMM and founding product marketing lead at amazing SaaS companies like Klue, Chili Piper, and Uberflip. We talk all about product launches - how to make them successful and pitfalls to avoid. Specifically, we cover: 1) Which sales reps are best to work with for product launches and enablement 2) Sales frustrations around lack of visibility into product launches and roadmaps 3) Whether or not you should incentivize or spiff product launches 4) Understanding the different pressures each team faces during product launches 5) Ways to get sales involved earlier through beta testing or engineering demos 6) How to have more empathy for team members during launches Jason drinks Any Day IPA from local brewery Side Launch

In Episode 7 we have our second guest - growth and PLG expert Andrew Capland who is the founder and a growth advisor at Delivering Value. We discuss why sales teams can be hesitant around PLG and how to reduce some of those fears as leadership and individual rep. Specifically, we cover: 1) Blended PLG and sales-led strategies 2) Why PLG can feel like a loss of control for sales and marketing 3) Sales rep's frustration with PLG slowing down sales cycles 4) How to help reps embrace PLG and the benefits for sales teams 5) Ways to upsell and multi-thread within an account 6) When is the right time for a company to go PLG Andrew drinks a Tommy Point IPA from his local Winter Hill Brewery

In Episode 6 we have our first guest! We talk with Mark Huber - Head of Brand & Product Marketing at Metadata about sales content (testimonials, blog posts, one-pagers, etc) and how they seem to always be a source of frustration for product marketers. Specifically, we cover: 1) Why sales reps constantly request different sales content 2) How to organize and prioritize content request 3) Re-usable content templates and slides for your sales team 4) Why some reps prefer content over others and why they create their own content 5) Most and least frequently used content by reps at Metadata and Navattic 6) How to create and repurpose customer-facing content Ben and I drink beer out of our Surf Hut glasses

In Episode 5 we talk about how to combat imposter syndrome at a startup - both from the individual and company perspective.  Specifically, we cover: 1) How imposter syndrome shifts as your company hits different growth stages 2) Tips we've used to deal with imposter syndrome in our day to day 3) Overcoming the "How big is your company" objection 4) Tips for targeting and partnering with companies admired in your industry 5) Combatting burnout that comes from imposter syndrome Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

In Episode 4 we cover how we set quotas and marketing goals at Navattic for the next quarter.  Specifically, we cover: 1) The difference between Ben's and my approach to sales forecasting and quota setting 2) Challenges of presenting quotas to reps 3) How to create forecasting models that take into account economic uncertainty 4) Finding a balance between sales math and empathy when setting sales quotas 5) Protecting reps from burnout when setting targets I drink a Langhe Nebbiolo

In Episode 3 we discuss ways sales and marketing can work with customer success to reduce churn and increase customer satisfaction.  Specifically, we cover: 1) Why there is tension between sales and customer success 2) How a misaligned ICP contributes to that tension 3) Is marketing or sales ultimately responsible for filtering out bad quality leads 4) How to use churn data and an open line of communication to help hone in on your ICP 5) Tips on how sales and marketing can improve customer satisfaction once the customer is onboard I drink a Sour Beer

In Episode 2 we discuss our journey of putting pricing on the Navattic website, how we aligned on this decision, and the results we've seen so far. Specifically, we cover: 1) Why sales and leadership teams are typically scared of transparent pricing 2) What was our internal tipping point to move to public-facing pricing 3) How GTM teams benefit from public pricing 4) How our sales cycle has changed from public pricing 5) Tips on how to discuss pricing with your sales and leadership team I drink another Cabernet Sauvignon

In our first episode, we chat about why we made this podcast, why sales and marketing don't typically get along, and ways to improve the relationship. Specifically, we cover: 1) Personality differences between sales and marketing 2) How to better understand and connect with your GTM counterpart 3) What to look for in a sales or marketing leadership hire 4) Why you need to trust your GTM leader 5) Tips on how we improved our sales and marketing relationship I drink a glass of red wine