Podcasts about mql

Why B2B Lead Qualification Fails and How to Fix It  Traffic is cheap, but qualified B2B sales conversions are not. Too many CMOs in the B2B space are watching brilliant creative go to waste at the top of the marketing funnel because what's passing through as a “qualified lead” often isn't really qualified. How can B2B marketers identify where the real lead qualification bottleneck is? Why is rethinking how MQLs are defined, scored, and routed one the most strategic fixes a CMO can make to improve pipeline performance? That's why we're talking to Gabe Lullo (CEO, Alleyoop), who shared some insights around why B2B lead qualification fails and how to fix it at the top of the funnel. During our discussion, Gabe challenged the common misconception that poor lead quality is the issue when sales aren't closing. Instead, he emphasized the importance of a clearly-defined Ideal Customer Profile (ICP), a strong product-market fit, and a well-mapped B2B sales journey. Gabe also stressed the need for A/B testing, identifying and resolving funnel bottlenecks, and using data-driven decision-making to improve lead conversion rates. He underscored the value of nurturing leads and cautioned B2B marketers against dismissing traditional marketing channels without rigorous testing. https://youtu.be/KXVmywNsfP0 Topics discussed in episode: [02:36] Why top-of-funnel lead qualification breaks down in B2B. [16:37] How to define and operationalize your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP). [12:17] When MQLs hurt more than they help, and how to fix them. [26:14] How A/B testing and data-driven decisions improve lead conversion. [27:53] Why lead nurturing is critical to long sales cycles. [34:05] When to test (not abandon) traditional B2B marketing channels. Companies and links mentioned: Gabe Lullo on LinkedIn  Alleyoop  ZoomInfo  Salesloft  Adobe  Transcript SPEAKERS Gabe Lullo, Christian Klepp Gabe Lullo  00:00 So we’re doing top of funnel activities, and then we’re sending leads over. The sales team takes them, and then what we find, a lot, we hear this all the time, is leads aren’t closing. And what’s interesting is that it was never a lead problem. It was more of a, you know, seller problem. I don’t mean to put blame on it, but companies come to us saying, hey, my sellers are saying we don’t have enough leads, we don’t have better leads, we don’t have good leads, and they’re the ones complaining about the lead. So they come to us to fix the lead problem. We fix the lead problem, but it doesn’t fix the revenue problem. It’s still not closing. So what is it? Christian Klepp  00:30 Traffic is cheap, but conversion is not too many CMOs (Chief Marketing Officer) are watching brilliant, creative go to waste at the top of the funnel, because what’s passing through as qualified just isn’t so how can you identify where the real bottleneck is, and why is rethinking how MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads) are defined and scored the single most strategic fix? A CMO can make welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Gabe Lullo, who will be answering these questions. He’s the CEO of Alleyoop, a sales development agency working with industry giants such as ZoomInfo, Salesloft and Adobe. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, and off we go. Mr. Gabe Lullo, welcome to the show, sir. Gabe Lullo  01:17 Christian. Thank you so much. First off, I’m a huge fan of yours, so is my team, and we just appreciate all that you do for the industry. And I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for the invite. Christian Klepp  01:28 Wow, wow. Thank you. Thank you so much. Right off the gate with the praise, thank you, sir. Gabe Lullo  01:33 Well, you deserve it, man, you’re the best. What do you do. I love it. I love your show, and I love being a part of that. Christian Klepp  01:38 I appreciate that. I appreciate that. You know, we really had an awesome, like, pre-interview conversation. I’m gonna say, like, you know, talking about coming up to Toronto and Buffalo and what have you. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation, Gabe, because, man, you know, what? As much as some Marketers probably don’t want to hear this. It’s an, I think this is an absolutely necessary conversation to have. Right this topic that we’re going to talk about, and I will not keep the audience in suspense for too long. I’m just going to jump into the first question, if you don’t mind. Gabe Lullo  02:09 Yeah, no problem. Let’s get right into it. Christian Klepp  02:11 All right, so Gabe, you’re on a mission to provide the ultimate assist to your clients by setting them up for success. So for this conversation, let’s zero in on the following topic of how B2B Marketers can fix qualification at the top. So here comes the first question in our previous conversation. You talked about many marketing funnels being a leaky bucket. Can you please explain what you meant by that? Gabe Lullo  02:36 Yeah, I think companies right now are going to market in a very hodgepodge type of way, you know, ICP (Ideal Customer Profile), you know, we throw that terminal around a lot, and, you know, people think they know what it is, or feel like they have it drilled down, or feel like it’s completely locked, locked in. And then clients invite us in, and we realize it’s not the case, and it’s not just what the ideal client profile is, which, of course, is quintessential to going to market, and it’s really the first step to qualification, isn’t it, right? But on the other side of it, it is, you know, is there a product market fit? Is there a pricing that needs to be aligned? What’s the competitive landscape look like? So when we’re having live conversations, our sellers are making, you know, 11 million cold calls a year. That’s front of the line conversations, right? And we can hear, understand, and truly, you know, debrief with what each call is sounding like, so we can then narrow in what those qualifications should be. You know, a lot of you know, let’s say VPs of sales come into the sales development side of the house or the marketing side of the house, and they apply sales training methodologies to top of funnel qualifications, and it really gets broken as well. So there’s a lot to unpack, but I’ll give you an example. You know, band for instance, but you know budget authority needed timing. Like, is that really the right qualification at the top of the funnel, or does that really, you know, evolve the seller and the demo and the discovery call at that moment in time. So really understanding who’s in charge of that top of funnel and what their experience is also as a part of it, in my opinion. Christian Klepp  04:13 Absolutely, absolutely and you’re absolutely right. There’s so much to unpack here, but I have to ask just from your experience, and I know you have a lot, it seems like it’s just, there’s so many moving parts in this ecosystem, and a lot of like, well, what causes the leaky funnel? I’m gonna say is a lot of the things that you just mentioned, right? It’s a lack of understanding of who the actual ICP is. It’s probably also, especially the bigger the the organization gets sorry to everyone out there, but the lack of ownership and accountability, the lack of an actual strategy, like, where’s this all gonna go? Right? Gabe Lullo  04:54 Oh, it’s interesting. Yeah, I find this to be our except we so we’re doing top of the funnel activities, and we’re sending leads over, the sales team takes them, and then what we find, a lot, we hear this all the time, is leads aren’t closing. And what’s interesting is that it was never a lead problem. It was more of a seller problem. Now I don’t mean to put blame on it, but companies come to us saying, hey, my sellers are saying we don’t have enough leads, we don’t have better leads, we don’t have good leads, and they’re the ones complaining about the lead so they come to us to fix the lead problem. We fix the lead problem, but it doesn’t fix the revenue problem. It’s still not closing. So what is it? It’s the entire channel, right? It’s the entire sales journey, and we have to make sure that all of those things are working like an engine, right? All the cylinders are working at the same time in the same motion, to truly know what the problem may be. So that that’s really exposed a lot when we step in and start doing top of funnel activities, Christian Klepp  05:55 Absolutely, absolutely. And that segues into the next question, which I feel you’ve already answered to a certain extent. But where do you feel the true bottleneck lies, and that may be dependent on the company, right? Because each company maybe has a different set of challenges. And most importantly, okay, where does the bottleneck lie? And how do how can B2B Marketing teams help address the bottleneck and not be part of the bottleneck? Gabe Lullo  06:21 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s an eight step approach to sales. That’s what we call your sales journey, right? You have, obviously, you know, list building, and then we have, of course, outreach, we have qualification, we have discovery call, we have demo, we have, you know, closing or negotiating. We have client success. I mean, that’s the basic funnel, if you will. So is our, I should say, all of those things operating at the best of its ability. And what is broken, and it’s, it’s the old, you know, Henry Ford approach the assembly line. You know, there’s an assembly line and building a car, and there’s an assembly line in sales. And you have to know those steps, firstly, two, you have to know if those steps are working correctly, and figure out where that bottleneck is, and then, you know, take those blockers away so that those cars are flowing in and the production line doesn’t stop and we’re, you know, executing on the results that we need to serve our clients. Christian Klepp  07:16 100% agree. But now I’m gonna throw in another like wild card question, and I know you can handle it, right? When companies like yours come in to help organizations, right, there are times, even from my own experience, where the internal teams look at you and go, What are those guys doing here? Right? Like, is my job on the line. So they feel, they feel threatened, right by by somebody coming in and providing an external perspective. So I guess the question is, how do you deal with that kind of push back to help fix this leaky marketing funnel? Gabe Lullo  07:57 Yeah, it’s very important, right? Because a lot of companies come, you know, come in like us, and say, You know what, we’re going to come in here and try to solve the problem, or rip and replace or threaten the job. And it’s interesting, our point of contact, usually is the person who may be, you know, being fired because of our success. Well, we don’t want to approach it that way. So we set clear expectations that, hey, listen, we’re not here to rip and replace we are here to work as a parallel to what you’re existing doing, so we can A/B test and share best practices and be collective in those results. A lot of companies who have existing teams in place usually put us in scenarios where we’re bringing something new to market, or we’re reaching out to a market that is you know, you know, a new product line or a new segment, and we’re bringing that in. We do, however, see about a 20 to 30% increase in existing production when an outside partner comes in, because, again, we are sharing best practices. We’re all working together, but there is some pressure on the line when they see it. You know, another great player on the team playing ball. However, we did put a mechanism in place that really helps alleviate the fear, if you will, of that rip and replace scenario. Very unique thing to us, only a handful of companies I know about, of hundreds and if not thousands, that do what we do, do this. And here’s what it is, a lot of companies want to hire everything within and bring everything in house, in the sales development side within, because they graduate those people into account executives or closers or higher level performers or managers, so that graduation of career placement is there if you do it in house. So what we say is, you know what? You can have that great feeling of growing and building your team in house with us too. So all of our reps (representatives) who come work here, and all of our clients who enroll with us know that they can hire our reps and and bring them into their payroll and into their in house team with our help. So that’s a really good way of curving the fear, because they know, hey, this person who’s executing this outbound activity could be our next closer, and we can hire them to not take again, to not take away from what their current teams are doing, but to add to and grow that existing team they have. Christian Klepp  10:14 Absolutely, absolutely, and you know where I’m going with this, right? Because, like, you know, far too often, especially the higher ups that are not involved in the day to day, that are looking at this from the, I call it the Mount Olympus perspective, right, looking down at the land of the living, right? Like, why are you bringing in an external partner? Isn’t that your job to fix it? Right? But there are benefits to your point of, like, bringing in somebody that’s external, that’s not privy to, perhaps, some of the bias, some of the, certainly, the, certainly the organizational like dynamics and politics, which may, may be more detrimental than useful, right? Gabe Lullo  10:50 Yeah. I mean, we do punchy contracts, right? We have a six month minimum engagement. But so when we do that, you know, we’re saying, Hey, listen, we’re, we’re going to work with you for six months. We’re going to give it everything we got. And if it’s something you want to bring in-house from our team, great. If it’s you want to continue, great, or if you’ve learned a lot and you’re able to duplicate our efforts, also great too. So again, we’re not going in there saying, Oh, this is our world. Now. Get out of the way. Good luck, you know, and giving pink slips to people, it’s about really, again, how can we help? How can we assist? How can we hit this number? It’s not getting hit. There has to be reasons why. And let’s figure those numbers out, and let’s figure out the reasons why. And then, and then we move on, you know. So there’s short contracts, and then there’s very, very long contracts, you know, ZoomInfo has been a client off and on for the last decade. We’re doing a program right now where they just launched a lot of cool things, and we’re helping them so companies like that, size and stature, still come to outside help when necessary, when the timing is right and the fit is right. Christian Klepp  11:55 Amazing. Amazing. All right. Next question. So why do you believe rethinking how MQLs are defined and scored as the most strategic fix that a CMO can make, and what are some of these other key pitfalls that Marketers should avoid, and what should they be doing instead? I mean, let’s, let’s keep the conversation constructive here, right? Gabe Lullo  12:17 So defining and scoring MQLs is by far one of the first things, if not the most important thing, to start with, right? Because that is, again, the start of that assembly line. You know, garbage in, garbage out. And so if we’re not actually understanding why those MQLs are, the MQLs that we are saying they are, and what those triggering events are causing them to be considered. MQLs could truly dictate whether or not we’re receiving garbage into the funnel versus excellence and extraordinary leads and MQLs into the funnel. So again, it’s going back to that ICP, like we discussed earlier. It’s determining, okay, are these worthy and does it make sense to continue this, lead this MQL down the funnel, and will it produce results? Should it even be in the system at all? So knowing that up front, like I said earlier, it’s like the raw material. You know, if you have really bad raw material that you’re using to build your cars, you know, no matter how great it comes out at the other end, it’s not going to be a quality vehicle. So it’s that, it’s the raw material that we need to make sure that’s first and foremost, because it’s the start of the entire process. Christian Klepp  13:29 Yeah, yeah, no, that’s for sure. Because, you know, how many times have you heard that, right? Like the marketing team says, well, we’ve, we’ve got, we’ve generated the MQLs, we’ve passed them on to the sales team now, so we’re good, yeah, but that’s not where it stops, right? Like, so especially if the MQLs are, like, not qualified, right? Gabe Lullo  13:48 No, I couldn’t agree with you more. And again, having sales and marketing work synergistically in that determination is paramount. You know, so many companies, and it’s the old adage, and I think it’s almost a cliche now, because it’s been said so many times that you know, sales is throwing spears over the fence to marketing, and marketing is throwing another spear back to them, and they’re fighting back and forth over this wall. The deal is, you got to break down the wall and start having conversations. And again, sellers have to give feedback on why we’re seeing this to not be the right fit, and Marketers have to be curious and asking what those things may be happening on those conversations, so they can go find the MQLs that that is worthy. Christian Klepp  14:30 Absolutely, absolutely. And on that topic, what are some of these other pitfalls that marketers should be looking out for, and what should they be doing instead? Gabe Lullo  14:39 Yeah, I think what right now is that you have to really understand your channels. You know, a lot of Marketers right now are doubling down on things that may not be producing the results that they have been expecting. Maybe a year from now, two years from now, every company is different, every ICP is different, and every industry is different. I’ll give you an example. You know, if you’re reaching out to sellers and you know, red. Heads of revenue, you have to have a totally different approach than if you’re reaching out to VPs of technology and cyber security. Now that may sound basic, but if you were coming from a company and you’re in your head of marketing, and you’re coming from a company where your ICP and your persona is all tech based companies, or all tech based personas, and you go into a new industry or a new company, and you come with that lens. It’s not the right approach. You know, sellers like to pick up the phone. They think they’re customers. They use the phone all day long. They pick up the phone all the time. Maybe that’s the right channel, right? CTOs (Chief Technology Officers), CIOs (Chief Information Officers), CSOs (Chief Security Officers), they are not usually picking up the phone. Maybe they’re their channels significantly different, and so you have to realize, understand what your persona is, so you can do marketing activities towards that total addressable market that resonate and hit home and get their attention. And it could be just as much as where they live in regards to where, where do they associate with, what, what channel are they living on? Are they people that pick up the phone? Are they ones that live on LinkedIn? Are they ones that go to Instagram? Are they ones that go to conferences? Where is your audience? And know that first and then go talk to them? Christian Klepp  16:10 That’s definitely a great insight. You know it. I know it. The problem is that there’s so many teams out there that skip this part, right? Like that, like that. That detailed breakdown you just gave us about the different let’s call them like, the different personas, the different behaviors, the different channels, like, Why do you think a lot of teams out there skip this part? Is it because of the the time crunch, the pressure to deliver immediately is all of the above? Gabe Lullo  16:37 Yeah, I think, you know, there’s a lot of boardrooms out there. They come out with this unique product, and then with all they do is they do is they look at the TAM, what’s the total addressable market? But that’s like saying, I want to go catch a tuna fish. But you know, let’s just look at the entire ocean. Like, okay, we have to be more specific. Where do the tuna fish actually swim? Where part of Do they like warm water? Do they like the coast? Are they more towards New Zealand, or are they up towards the Massachusetts? So you have to know where your school of fish are. If you want to go fishing, you can’t just look at the entire ocean as the market. And I think narrowing it down to understand patterns and where people are so you can go talk to them is the right approach, versus this spray and pray mentality that I feel marketing has been living in for many, many years, and now it’s becoming more self evident because of AI, right? Because AI can tell us a lot of these things. AI can do a lot of analysis and research, and it’s giving us insights that we’ve never been able to really see before because of the speed and quickness of it. And so I think we are getting to a point, and I’m hopeful that we are more specific with our total addressable markets in new companies specifically that may not have the experience or the capacity like they used to. And I think it’s exciting. Christian Klepp  16:37 Oh Gabe, you just open the door to another question there. Man. Gabe Lullo  16:37 Like, start with an A. Christian Klepp  16:37 Yeah, it starts with an A. But, like, you know, since you brought it up, I’ve got to ask AI, right? Gabe Lullo  16:37 Yeah. Christian Klepp  16:37 And in terms of, like, helping to fix a leaky marketing funnel, how do you from your experience and your perspective, how do you think AI is helpful, and how is it harmful? Gabe Lullo  17:23 Sure. I mean double edged sword, right? We love AI. We accept it. We know it’s here. We’re not scared of it. We’re not running away from it, but we’re also not ripping and replacing things too abruptly with with the implementation of it, either. For instance, I’ll give you real examples. Are we telling AI to go make cold calls? Well, no, it’s illegal, technically. Secondly, are we using it, though, on the flip side, to train our reps on how to effectively handle great questions and objections through an AI sparring partner? Yeah, we are, and it’s amazing at it. So we actually have our reps when they’re brand new and onboarding or launching into a new campaign. We program the robot, the AI right to be able to have conversations in real life time with our reps, to literally spar with them. And it’s like practice. It’s a sparring partner before they go live onto a campaign, and it prepares them immensely before the live show, before they’re before they’re active, right on the campaign. So this is one way we’re doing it. Other ways, obviously email, messaging, obviously personalization, obviously research, you know, pre-call research, account research, determining who’s picking up the phone when they pick up the phone, how many times does it take to call them? You know, time zones? What’s the best time to call them? And it’s crazy what it could do, but it’s really, really helpful. But it’s not a crutch. It’s an assistant, and that’s how we’re approaching it. It’s not replacing human to human communication. If it was. Maybe you and I would just have our AI avatars do this podcast right instead of we’ll be on a beach somewhere, maybe we’ll be there in the future. I’m not predicting it, but I will say there’s a huge, significant role it plays right now, but it is not a role that’s, in my opinion, supposed to replace everything. It can replace a lot, but not everything. Christian Klepp  20:20 Absolutely. I mean, it certainly requires a lot of like, human intervention, right? And it’s and it’s constantly learning, and it’s learning quickly, which I think is to its benefit, to its detriment. And I think that’s, that’s your point as well. There’s a lot of stuff out there that’s AI generated that just looks off, starting with videos even, even like in I don’t know if you’ve dabbled with Google notebook, right? It can, it can take all that content and turn it into an audio file. And it’s scary. How real it sounds. Gabe Lullo  20:54 It is pretty scary. And I have seen tools like that. I love there’s one right now, where it’s actually tracking not even what someone is saying, but how they’re saying it. So tonality, right is a huge piece of communication, as we know, and so it’s literally listening to calls and sales calls, and not just again, we’ve seen it before, like, you know, Gong and others, where it’s telling, hey, maybe say this. Don’t say that, but it’s also giving that score of how they’re delivering that message, which, in my world, is huge because, you know, I could read a script, or I can, you know, have an amazing performance, and that’s how we approach, you know, the way we communicate on a phone call. So that is why we’re so excited. Because there’s new tools coming out all the time that are really, really impactful, for sure. Christian Klepp  21:42 Absolutely, absolutely. So you’ve touched on this a little bit like in the past couple of minutes, but explain how market research and strategy help to develop a solid marketing funnel, not a leaky one. Gabe Lullo  21:55 Yeah. I mean, I think it’s your playbook, right? You know, you have to have a built out playbook, and it’s your guide. And it’s not just important to go to market with a playbook, but it’s also going to market to scale, right? You know, once you get it to work, the ever everything after that is, how do we duplicate and how do we scale? So the playbook is that design is the architecture behind your strategy. So when we do start pouring fuel on the fire and we’re adding people, we’re adding leads, we’re adding workflows, we’re adding everything outside of that, we still go back to the playbook. It’s like the Constitution, right? Everything based off that in our country. I know we’re in different ones, but my point is is, is you have a framework, right, that we go off of and that playbook is so vital to our importance of market research gives us a great understanding of where that playbook is built and how it’s designed and how it’s architected, and that’s how we that’s how we do it here. Christian Klepp  22:55 And even how the playbook can be iterated, right? Because let’s not forget that it’s not written in stone. Gabe Lullo  23:01 Evolving. Yeah, absolutely. I do want to warn people, though, evolve with time. Be patient, right? You know, marketing, sales, development, it’s not a light switch. Yeah, I always say it’s like boiling water, right? So a watch pot technically does boil. It’s just painful to watch. So, but the point is, is that you have to give it enough time to see if that playbook is yielding results. What you don’t want to do is change the play, you know, too many times in the middle of the game, because then you look confused and confused. People do nothing, right? So, yes, is it evolving? Does it pivot? Does it grow? Do you do you change things up, of course. But also you want to do it in a tactful timeline to make sure that it is truly a working playbook or not. Christian Klepp  23:47 Absolutely, absolutely. And you brought something up, and I have to ask this, this next question, it’s… We know, from a marketing point of view, that rolling out these initiatives and seeing the results takes time, yeah, but we’ve had, I’ve certainly had this experience in B2B, that there are people, again, at the top, that don’t have oversight into the day to day, and probably also don’t understand quite how the process works, that don’t have that patience, right, that are telling you, like, hurry up and deliver like, we want results right now. So what do you say to those, I guess the people that are doubting that this initiative needs more time than they think it does. Gabe Lullo  24:30 Yeah. I mean, I think looking at benchmarks and case studies and past results is very important, like I said, Back to the boiling of water. You can show a thermometer as well, like you can see, is it working well? You can put a thermometer in a boiling pot of water and watch the temperature go up, right? And it gives you a clear indication and forecast, if you will, that you’re going to achieve boiling point eventually. It’s not just again, you put the water in and then. And you all of a sudden, measure boiling. You have to measure along the way, and that’s we want to do. So what the ways we do it specifically is, if we’re working on a campaign that is almost a look alike campaign to another company, maybe it’s in the same industry, same ICP, you know, same your size, same scope, we can look at that historical result and say, Hey, by the way, if we do these, these, these and these, you’re going to we’re going to expect boiling point at this time based on a company that’s very similar to yours. Now, is it identical? No, maybe that company has really bad sellers we talked about. Maybe that company doesn’t really care about content and they’re just missing the boat there. Maybe they have a crappy website, like, I don’t, there’s different levers that could, you know, alter the recipe, but we can absolutely make highly educated guesses, as opposed to just trying to wing it or give false expectations. Christian Klepp  25:54 Yeah, yeah, no, that’s absolutely right, all right. I mean, you’ve given us a lot of, like, recommendations, a lot of actionable tips. So walk us through, and I know it varies from company to company and case by case, but walk us through the process of how you actually fix a leaky marketing funnel. Like, what are the steps? What are those key components that absolutely have to be in that process? Gabe Lullo  26:14 Yeah, you have to, you know, inspect what you expect. You have to understand what your messaging is, and you have to A/B test it all the time. I A/B test everything, whether it’s data vendors, whether it’s email messaging, whether it’s LinkedIn content, what you have, obviously mechanisms, depending on what tech you’re working with, what vendors you’re working with, or your history or historical results are to give you grades and scores and A/B testing everything. So if you have, you know campaigns that are running that are successful, you should be able to know how to measure that. That’s what’s so important. So you have to have inspect, inspection tools in place across everything you’re doing on those campaigns to tell you, Hey, this is broken, this is leaky. This isn’t working. Or on the flip side, this is crushing right now. This is totally resonating right now, and we’re loving these, seeing these numbers, and then pour fuel on that fire and focus on that and remove the other ones, and still A/B test, because you always want to keep getting better. So A/B test everything, define the leaks, and then try to fix those leaks as fast as possible. Christian Klepp  27:23 Fantastic, fantastic. And because we’re talking about marketing funnels, I mean, like, I can’t help myself but ask you, okay, but what about metrics? Because that’s something that people want to see, right? But I’m not talking about like, let’s, let’s come up with this like, laundry list of like metrics, and you go down this deep rabbit hole. Like, what are the metrics that you would say, or you would advise B2B Marketers to look at to say, like, okay, we’re trying to fix the leaky marketing funnel here, and these metrics will help you to indicate that there is progress. Gabe Lullo  27:53 Yeah. I mean, it’s harder now than ever before to metric things out, and it’s because of tech that’s kind of getting in the way. You know, for instance, in an email campaign, there’s been some rules and regulations in the last recent years that prevents us from seeing whether or not there’s clicks and opens that are happening on email campaigns. I’ve actually removed many of those triggers completely away from our campaigns, because it’s preventing deliverability, and it’s preventing our ability to keep domains healthy. So there are a lot of moving parts right now that’s happening because of these AI filtration tools. I just heard Google just released that it’s going to now put disclaimers and emails saying that this was written by AI. And so there’s it’s ever involving so depending on I guess when your listeners are hearing this, it may be completely different in a year, but I will tell you that there are definitely things that we need to metric and we need to have KPIs for. But I think the priority of what we used to measure two, three years ago, is significantly different than what we measure today, because of those rules and regulations. So if we’re talking about emails, I want to know what we’re sending, who we’re sending it to, who obviously is responding. What are those responses look like? Is it turning to an actual lead? Are we turning on warm leads, or are we just looking at set meetings? You know, it’s interesting, right? There is only about 2 to 3% of the market ever wants to truly buy, and they’re in buying mode, and I think a lot of companies are just looking for those people, and about 20% of the market is actually interested in buying and we turn that entire segment off. It’s about 10 times more people. But if we can warm the nurture them correctly, and message them correctly, that’s where the rubber meets the road, and that’s where your gold is. I like to analogize everything. So, yeah, when you have a green apple, right? What do you do with the green apple? You put it on the window sill, and then the sun on the windowsill warms it up. Now, that doesn’t mean you just throw out the apple. That means you have a lot of opportunity. You just have. To nurture, and you be patient. And you have to know that timing is everything in business. So if you’re just looking for the red apples, you’re only gonna get 3% if you’re looking for green apples that turn into red apples, now you’re getting 25% so focus on the 25, be patient. Fix those leaky buckets, of course. A/B test, and then then you measure. Christian Klepp  30:20 Yeah or you get yourself an apple orchard. You mentioned one keyword there, nurture, right? I think that’s the one that’ll I see a lot of, like people in sales and even in marketing, right? They just don’t take that time to nurture those leads. They close in. I keep saying they close in for the kill too fast, right? Gabe Lullo  30:44 Yeah. I mean, go back to that food analogy, that the fruit analogy, again. Christian Klepp  30:49 Sure. Gabe Lullo  30:49 I’m on a roll with that. Christian Klepp  30:50 Please. Gabe Lullo  30:50 It’s the low hanging fruit cliche, right? Christian Klepp  30:52 Yes. Gabe Lullo  30:52 Everyone focuses on the low hanging fruit. They’re not focusing on what else is part of that harvest. They’re not focusing on the nurturing. They’re not focused on watering. They’re not focusing on circling back, following up, checking in, providing value in those checks. Not just say, Hey, I’m following up, no, provide value in those seconds, right? And that’s again, that’s where you see excellence happen, you know? And there’s a lot of young, and I don’t mean to be age, but like tenure, people that are experienced, that are in these experience roles right now, and I feel that they’re just trying to get that quick answer and that quick response. And we’re in this like dopamine, like, you know, hit like social media environment right now. Not to go off topic, but I think people are not again, they’re in this microwave society, and they don’t understand the value of nurturing. And if you do and you treat that part seriously, wow, it usually is a windfall at that time. Christian Klepp  31:47 Absolutely, absolutely. It’s an art, a skill, a craft, isn’t it? Right? All of you love, okay, my friend, we come to the point in the conversation where we’re talking about actionable tips, and Gabe, you’ve given us plenty, all right, but just think of this kind of like a recap. If there was somebody listening to this conversation that you and I are having, and you want them to walk away with three to five things that they that they can take action on right now, when it comes to fixing a leaky marketing funnel, what would they be? Gabe Lullo  32:17 Well, I think the best thing is you have to really decide if you have the right people in place, right, and are they? And it doesn’t mean that they are the ones that are going to bring it home. It doesn’t mean that they’re they don’t need support and training and love, like, do they have the commitment? Do they have good experience? Are they willing to roll up their sleeves and get get a little dirty, and if you feel like you have a great team in place of people that are ready to get to work and solve some problems. I think that is literally step one. Step two is, do we have the messaging in the mark, in the ICP nailed down? We really need to know that, because, again, there’s no point of building a campaign if you don’t know who you’re sending it to. And then, thirdly, you really have to make sure that you’re willing to A/B test. It’s hard enough to build a campaign, but it’s much more difficult to build two or three campaigns. Run three campaigns, right as opposed to one, and score each of them to determine what’s working, what’s effective, and what’s not, and then you pivot based on those results. So I think finding a great team is basic and fundamental. Finding a great ice or determining a great ICP is before you build the messaging and then measure the message across multiple campaigns, and then you should be on your way Christian Klepp  33:29 And test, test, test, everything, right? Gabe Lullo  33:34 Yes, it’s great. It could be working. It’s exciting, but maybe there’s a significantly more effective way of doing it, even though it’s still working, and let the data make those decisions for you and drive everything based off data driven decisions, and that’s how you should be operating. Christian Klepp  33:51 Absolutely, absolutely. All right. Here comes the soapbox question, a status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with and why? Gabe Lullo  34:05 Yeah, I think the big thing right now, and I have to just kind of talk about my space, because you said in my industries, like, there’s a lot of, you know, people out there soapboxing, to be exact, on things that are dead or not. And I will tell you that, you know, cold calling is dead, emailing is dead. You know, LinkedIn is dead, or all of these things and and when you peel back the onion, you notice that those individuals who are saying that users are trying to sell a book or something, and nothing against selling books, but it sounds like there’s a personal agenda and not actual operational intelligence that is dictating what they’re saying. So to your point about testing everything, don’t assume something is not going to work just because someone said it on the internet. Test it and then decide if it’s going to work. And it may surprise you in a big, big way. Christian Klepp  34:56 I truly believe that, man, I truly believe that. I mean to your point. About, like, email being dead. I mean, I did close one client who was a guest on the show, and it took me a year to close, but I closed it through email. Gabe Lullo  35:09 Yeah. Christian Klepp  35:11 Right. And it’s to your point, it’s sending, sending that person articles that were relevant to that person’s industry and saying, like, Hey, I read this the other day, what are your thoughts on this? And here’s my take. What do you think? Gabe Lullo  35:24 That is the best way to do an email, right? You know, we do a lot of content and on social media, we do a lot of podcasting, posts on LinkedIn, but that’s all great, but where the rubber meets the road is you take that post and you send it in an email or a direct message and say, Hey, listen. This made me think of our last conversation, and I really liked the way that this person mentioned this. Do you think you know that there is, is the timing right here to reopen this conversation, and you feel like the problem is still existing in your world, and love to see if we can solve it for you, that type of content, that type of message, that type of verbiage at the right time in a nurture campaign like we discussed, close one business, right? That’s how it works. Christian Klepp  36:08 Absolutely, absolutely okay. Here comes the bonus question, and for those of you that are listening to the audio version, Gabe’s got two guitars right behind him, so I’m just gonna go on a hunch here that he likes playing guitar, right? So the question is, if you had the opportunity to, like, go on a tour with your favorite guitarist/musician, who would it be, and where would you go? Gabe Lullo  36:36 Wow, I love this question. I do play the guitar. I’m a bet big avid music player. Love Rock as well, but all genres, I will say, in real life, we just actually my family, my wife and daughter and I went to go see Oasis reunion tour, which was in Toronto, actually, out of all places. Christian Klepp  36:53 That’s right, you mentioned it. Gabe Lullo  36:54 Yeah, we went to see that. It was epic. Obviously, the brothers have been apart for many years. A lot of drama there. But yeah, you know, I’m old enough to remember their original songs, so it was cool to reminisce and introduce my daughter to that music, which was pretty cool. We’re gonna go see Paul McCartney in a few weeks. He’s on tour now and never seen him or I’m a big fan of The Beatles, and I think that would be really exciting to tour with him, obviously. And I think those are definitely both of those right there kind of sum up the type of music that I resonate with. Christian Klepp  37:26 Amazing, amazing. I just remember, like, this is, this is a couple of years ago. I think he’s already passed away, but Compay Segundo. Gabe Lullo  37:33 Oh yeah. Christian Klepp  37:34 Buena Vista Social Club. And the guy was in his 90s, and they were, they had a concert, and they they brought him up in stage in his wheelchair, helped him get up, get out of that wheelchair, and they gave him that guitar, and off he went, Man, like, Gabe Lullo  37:48 Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing, man, that’s amazing. Christian Klepp  37:53 Gabe, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your experience and expertise with the listeners. So please quick intro to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you. Gabe Lullo  38:03 Yeah, LinkedIn is the best way to connect with me directly. I post twice a day, every day. We’re very bullish with our content. There’s a lot of free material there. We have a newsletter, so please take a look at that, and if you like what you see, and he heard today, you know, reach out, and I’ll definitely be responsive. And you know, anyone who is looking or struggling with the after-sales motion, which are after marketing motion, that sales development function, that’s where we play, and we’d love to look at what you’re looking for and see how we can help. Christian Klepp  38:33 Sounds good. Gabe, once again, thank you so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Gabe Lullo  38:38 Thanks, Christian. Christian Klepp  38:39 All right. Bye for now.

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, marketing veteran Ed Locher pulls back the curtain on B2B marketing's biggest lie: that the MQL machine actually drives growth. As CMO of PureFacts Financial Solutions and author of "Digital Transformation: People, Process and Technology," Ed reveals why 15 years of marketing automation created a sugar rush that's now crashing, and how AI can help fix it without repeating the same mistakes. This is a no-holds-barred conversation about emotional connection, the 95% of buyers marketers ignore, and why marketing tenure averages just 18 months. Four Key Takeaways: The MQL Mirage Is Built on a Lie 8:56Marketing automation promised accountability through MQLs, but overdelivering on MQL targets quarter after quarter never translated to actual revenue growth. The entire system targets only the 5% of the market ready to buy right now—ignoring the 95% who need demand creation, not demand capture. B2B Buying Committees Have Tripled in Size 16:30The buying committee for enterprise B2B purchases has exploded from 5 people to 16. You can't build credibility and trust with 16 stakeholders through email sequences—you need emotional connection and personalized storytelling that speaks to each person's specific drivers (CFO cares about ROI, compliance cares about regulations, operations cares about not making headlines). AI Raises the Floor, Not the Ceiling 29:59AI protects terrible marketers from themselves by raising the quality floor, but it hasn't raised the bar for great marketing. The real opportunity lies 3-4 standard deviations above the mean—where human empathy, emotional triggers, and genuine understanding of customer pain create outsized impact that AI can't replicate. Marketing Attribution Is a Myth 44:13There will never be a "cast iron steel rod of attribution" connecting marketing activities directly to purchases. Marketers who work for leadership that doesn't understand this are doomed to 18-month tenures, chasing MQL targets that deliver short-term sugar rushes followed by revenue crashes. The rare CEO or investor who recognizes this broken motion is the problem—not the marketer—creates space for real growth. Quote of the Show (44:13):"There will never be a cast iron steel rod of attribution that says marketing did X, which led to this person buying something. It just doesn't work that way.” — Ed Locher Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we’re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome. Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval Ways to connect with Ed Locher: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/edlocher/ Company Website: https://purefacts.com How to get more Disruption/Interruption: Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption Apple Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlDSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome back to the Ultimate Guide to Partnering® Podcast. AI agents are your next customers. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ https://youtu.be/vEdq8rpBM3I In this data-rich keynote, Jay McBain deconstructs the tectonic shifts reshaping the $5.3 trillion global technology industry, arguing that we are entering a new 20-year cycle where traditional direct sales models are obsolete. McBain explains why 96% of the industry is now surrounded by partners and how successful companies must pivot from “flywheels and theory” to a granular strategy focused on the seven specific partners present in every deal. From the explosion of agentic AI and the $163 billion marketplace revolution to the specific mechanics of multiplier economics, this discussion provides a roadmap for navigating the “decade of the ecosystem” where influence, trust, and integration—not just product—determine winners and losers. Key Takeaways Half of today's Fortune 500 companies will likely vanish in the next 20 years due to the shift toward AI and ecosystem-led models. Every B2B deal now involves an average of seven trusted partners who influence the decision before a vendor even knows a deal exists. Microsoft has outpaced AWS growth for 26 consecutive quarters largely because of a superior partner-led geographic strategy. Marketplaces are projected to grow to $163 billion by 2030, with nearly 60% of deals involving partner funding or private offers. The “Multiplier Effect” is the new ROI, where partners can make up to $8.45 for every dollar of vendor product sold. Future dominance relies on five key pillars: Platform, Service Partnerships, Channel Partnerships, Alliances, and Go-to-Market orchestration. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Keywords: Jay McBain, Canalys, partner ecosystem, channel chief, agentic AI, marketplace growth, multiplier economics, B2B sales trends, tech industry forecast, service partnerships, strategic alliances, Microsoft vs AWS, distribution transformation, managed services growth, SaaS platforms, customer journey mapping, 28 moments of truth, future of reselling, technology spending 2025, ecosystem orchestration, partner multipliers. T Transcript: Jay McBain WORKFILE FOR TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Vince Menzione: Just up from, did you Puerto Rico last night? Puerto Rico, yes. Puerto Rico. He dodged the hurricane. Um, you all know him. Uh, let him introduce himself for those of you who don’t, but just thrilled to have on the stage, again, somebody who knows more about what’s going on in, in the, and has the pulse on this industry probably than just about anybody I know personally. [00:00:21] Vince Menzione: J Jay McBain. Jay, great to see you my friend. Alright, thank you. We have to come all the way. We live, we live uh, about 20 minutes from each other. We have to come all the way to Reston, Virginia to see each other, right? That’s right. Very good. Well, uh, that’s all over to you, sir. Thank you. [00:00:35] Jay McBain: Alright, well thank you so much. [00:00:36] Jay McBain: I went from 85 degrees yesterday to 45 today, but I was able to dodge that, uh, that hurricane, uh, that we kind of had to fly through the northern edge of, uh, wanna talk today about our industry, about the ultimate partner. I’m gonna try to frame up the ultimate partner as I walk through the data and the latest research that, uh, that we’ve been doing in the market. [00:00:56] Jay McBain: But I wanted to start here ’cause our industry moves in 20 year cycles, and if you look at the Fortune 500 and dial back 20 years from today, 52% of them no longer exist. As we step into the next 20 year AI era, half of the companies that we know and love today are not gonna exist. So we look at this, and by the way, if you’re not in the Fortune 500 and you don’t have deep pockets to buy your way outta problems, 71% of tech companies fail over the course of 10 years. [00:01:30] Jay McBain: Those are statistics from the US government. So I start to look at our industry and you know, you may look at the, you know, mainframe era from the sixties and seventies, mini computers, August the 12th, 1981, that first IBM, PC with Microsoft dos, version one, you know, triggered. A new 20 year era of client server. [00:01:51] Jay McBain: It was the time and I worked at IBM for 17 years, but there was a time where Bill Gates flew into Boca Raton, Florida and met with the IBM team and did that, you know, fancy licensing agreement. But after, you know, 20 years of being the most valuable company in the world and 13 years of antitrust and getting broken up, almost like at and TIBM almost didn’t make payroll. [00:02:14] Jay McBain: 13 years after meeting Bill Gates. Yeah, that’s how quickly things change in these eras. In 1999, a small company outta San Francisco called salesforce.com got its start. About 10 years later, Jeff Bezos asked a question in a boardroom, could we rent out our excess capacity and would other companies buy it? [00:02:35] Jay McBain: Which, you know, most people in the room laughed at ’em at the time. But it created a 20 year cloud era when our friends, our neighbors, our family. Saw Chachi PT for the first time in March of 2023. They saw the deep fakes, they saw the poetry, they saw the music. They came to us as tech people and said, did we just light up Skynet? [00:02:58] Jay McBain: And that consumer trend has triggered this next 20 years. I could walk through the richest people in the world through those trends. I could walk through the most valuable companies. It all aligns. ’cause by the way, Apple’s no longer at the top. Nvidia is at the top, Microsoft. Second, things change really quickly. [00:03:17] Jay McBain: So in that course of time, you start to look at our industry and as people are talking about a six and a half or $7 trillion build out of ai, that’s open AI and Microsoft numbers, that is bigger than our industry that’s taken over 50 years to build. This year, we’re gonna finish the year at $5.3 trillion. [00:03:36] Jay McBain: That’s from the smallest flower shop to the biggest bank. Biggest governments that Caresoft would, uh, serve biggest customer in the world is actually the federal government of the us. But you look at this pie chart and you look at the changes that we’re gonna go through over the next 20 years, there’s about a trillion dollars in hardware. [00:03:54] Jay McBain: There’s about a trillion dollars in software. If you look forward through all of the merging trends, quantum computing, humanoid robots, all the things that are coming that dollar to dollar software to hardware will continue to exist all the way through. We see services making up almost two thirds of this pie. [00:04:13] Jay McBain: Yesterday I was in a telco conference with at and t and Verizon and T-Mobile and some of the biggest wireless players and IT services, which happen to be growing faster than products. At the moment, there is more work to be done wrapping around the deal than the actual products that the customer is buying. [00:04:32] Jay McBain: So in an industry that’s growing at 7%. On top of the world economy that’s grown at 2.2. This is the fastest growing industry, and it will be at least for the next 10 years, if not 2070 0.1% of this entire $5 trillion gets transacted through partners. While what we’re talking to today about the ultimate partner, 96% of this industry is surrounded by partners in one way or another. [00:05:01] Jay McBain: They’re there before the deal. They’re there at the deal. They’re there after the deal. Two thirds of our industry is now subscription consumption based. So every 30 days forever, and a customer for life becomes everything. So if every deal in medium, mid-market, and higher has seven partners, according to McKinsey, who are those seven people trying to get into the deal? [00:05:25] Jay McBain: While there’s millions of companies that have come into tech over the last 10 to 20 years. Digital agencies, accountants, legal firms, everybody’s come in. The 250,000 SaaS companies, a million emerging tech companies, there’s a big fight to be one of those seven trusted people at the table. So millions of companies and tens of millions of people our competing for these slots. [00:05:49] Jay McBain: So one of the pieces of research I’m most proud of, uh, in my analyst career is this. And this took over two years to build. It’s a lot of logos. Not this PowerPoint slide, but the actual data. Thousands of people hours. Because guess what? When you look at partners from the top down, the top 1000 partners, by capability and capacity, not by resale. [00:06:15] Jay McBain: It’s not a ranking of CDW and insight and resale numbers. It is the surrounding. Consulting, design, architecture, implementations, integrations, managed services, all the pieces that’s gonna make the next 20 years run. So when you start to look at this, 98% of these companies are private, so very difficult to get to those numbers and, uh, a ton of research and help from AI and other things to get this. [00:06:41] Jay McBain: But this is it. And if you look at this list, there’s a thousand logos out of the million companies. There’s a thousand logos that drive two thirds of all tech services in the world. $1.07 trillion gets delivered by a thousand companies, but here’s where it gets fun. Those companies in the middle, in blue, the 30 of them deliver more tech services than the next 970. [00:07:08] Jay McBain: Combined the 970 combined in white deliver more tech services. Then the next million combined. So if you think we live in an 80 20 rule or maybe a 99, a 95 5 rule, or a 99 1 rule, we actually live in a 99.9 0.1 parallel principle. These companies spread around the world evenly split across the uh, different regions. [00:07:35] Jay McBain: South Africa, Latin America, they’re all over. They split. They split among types. All of the Venn diagram I just showed from GSIs to VARs to MSPs, to agencies and other types of companies. But this is a really rich list and it’s public. So every company in the world now, if you’re looking at Transactable data, if you’re looking at quantifiable data that you can go put your revenue numbers against, it represents 70 to 80% of every company in this room’s Tam. [00:08:08] Jay McBain: In one piece of research. So what do you do below that? How do you cover a million companies that you can’t afford to put a channel account manager? You can’t afford to write programs directly for well after the top down analysis and all the wallet share and you know exactly where the lowest hanging fruit is for most of your tam. [00:08:28] Jay McBain: The available markets. The obtainable markets. You gotta start from the community level grassroots up. So you need to ask the question for the million companies and the maybe a hundred thousand companies out there, partner companies that are surrounding your customer. These are the seven partners that surround your customer. [00:08:48] Jay McBain: What do they read, where do they go, and who do they follow? Interestingly enough, our industry globally equates to only a thousand watering holes, a thousand companies at the top, a thousand places at the bottom. 35% of this audience we’re talking. Millions of people here love events and there’s 352 of them like this one that they love to go to. [00:09:13] Jay McBain: They love the hallway chats, they love the hotel lobby bar, you know, in a time reminded by the pandemic. They love to be in person. It’s the number one way they’re influenced. So if you don’t have a solid event strategy and you don’t have a community team out giving out socks every week, your competitors might beat you. [00:09:31] Jay McBain: 12% of this audience loves podcasts. It’s the Joe Rogan effect of our industry. And while you know, you may not think the 121 podcasts out there are important, well, you’re missing 12% of your audience. It’s over a million people. If you’re not on a weekly podcast in one of these podcasts in the world, there’s still people that read one of the 106 magazines in the world. [00:09:55] Jay McBain: There are people that love peer groups, associations, they wanna be part of this. There’s 15 different ways people are influenced. And a solid grassroots strategy is how you make this happen. In the last 10 years, we’ve created a number of billionaires. Bottom up. They never had to go talk to la large enterprise. [00:10:15] Jay McBain: They never had to go build out a mid-market strategy. They just went and give away socks and new community marketing. And this has created, I could rip through a bunch of names that became unicorns just in the last couple of years, bottoms up. You go back to your board walking into next year, top down, bottom up. [00:10:34] Jay McBain: You’ve covered a hundred percent of your tam, and now you’ve covered it with names, faces, and places. You haven’t covered it with a flywheel or a theory. And for 44 years, we have gone to our board every fourth quarter with flywheels and theory. Trust me, partners are important. The channel is key to us. [00:10:57] Jay McBain: Well, let’s talk at the point of this granularity, and now we’re getting supported by technology 261 entrepreneurs. Many of them in the room actually here that are driving this ability to succeed with seven partners in every deal to exchange data to be able to exchange telemetry of these prospects to be able to see twice or three times in terms of pipeline of your target addressable market. [00:11:26] Jay McBain: All these ai, um, technologies, agentic technologies are coming into this. It’s all about data. It’s all about quantifiable names, faces, and places. Now none of us should be walking around with flywheels, so let’s flip the flywheels. No. Uh, so we also look at, and I sold PCs for 17 years and that was in the high times of 40% margins for partners. [00:11:55] Jay McBain: But one interesting thing when you study the p and l for broad base of partners around the world, it’s changed pretty significantly in this last 20 year era. What the cloud era did is dropped hardware from what used to be 84% plus the break fix and things that wrap around it of the p and l to now 16% of every partner in the world. [00:12:16] Jay McBain: 84% of their p and l is now software and services. And if you look at profitability, it’s worse. It’s actually 87% is profitability wise. They’ve completely shifted in terms of where they go. Now we look at other parts of our market. I could go through every part of the pie of the slide, but we’re watching each of the companies, and if you can see here, this is what we want to talk about in terms of ultimate partner. [00:12:43] Jay McBain: Microsoft has outgrown AWS for 26 straight quarters. They don’t have a better product. They don’t have a better price, they don’t have better promotion. It’s all place. And I’ll explain why you guess here in the light green line. Exactly. The day that Google went a hundred percent all in partner, every deal, even if a deal didn’t have a partner, one of the 4% of deals that didn’t have a partner, they injected a partner. [00:13:09] Jay McBain: You can see on the left side exactly where they did it. They got to the point of a hundred percent partner driven. Rebuilt their programs, rebuilt their marketplace. Their marketplace is actually larger than Microsoft’s, and they grew faster than Microsoft. A couple of those quarters. It is a partner driven future, and now I have Oracle, which I just walked by as I walked from the hotel. [00:13:31] Jay McBain: Oracle with their RPOs will start to join. Maybe the list of three hyperscalers becomes the list of four in future slides, but that’s a growth slide. Market share is different. AWS early and commanding lead. And it plays out, uh, plays out this way. But we’re at an interesting moment and I stood up six years ago talking about the decade of the ecosystem after we went through a decade of sales starting in 1999 when we all thought we were born to be salespeople. [00:14:02] Jay McBain: We managed territories with our gut. The sales tech stack would have it different, that sales was a science, and we ended the decade 2009, looking at sales very differently in 2009. I remember being at cocktail parties where CMOs would be joking around that 50% of their marketing dollars were wasted. They just didn’t know which 50%. [00:14:23] Jay McBain: And I’ll tell you, that was really funny. In 2009 till every 58-year-old CMO got replaced by a 38-year-old growth hacker who walked in with 15,348 SaaS companies in their MarTech and ad tech stack to solve the problem, every nickel of marketing by 2019 was tracked. Marketo, Eloqua, Pardot, HubSpot, driving this industry. [00:14:50] Jay McBain: Now, we stood up and said the 28 moments that come before a sale are pretty much all partner driven. In the best case scenario, a vendor might see four of the moments. They might come to your website, maybe they read an ebook, maybe they have a salesperson or a demo that comes in. That’s four outta 28 moments. [00:15:10] Jay McBain: The other 24 are done by partners. Yeah, in the worst case scenario and the majority scenario, you don’t see any of the moments. All 28 happen and you lose a deal without knowing there ever was a deal. So this is it. We need to partner in these moments and we need to inject partners into sales and marketing, like no time before, and this was the time to do it. [00:15:33] Jay McBain: And we got some feedback in the Salesforce state of sales report, which doesn’t involve any partnerships or, or. Channel Chiefs or anything else. This is 5,500 of the biggest CROs in the world that obviously use Salesforce. 89% of salespeople today use partners every day. For the 11% who don’t, 58% plan two within a year. [00:15:57] Jay McBain: If you add those two numbers together, that’s magically the 96% number. They recognize that every deal has partners in it. In 2024, last year, half of the salespeople in the world, every industry, every country. Miss their numbers. For the minority who made their numbers, 84 point percent pointed to partners as the reason why they made their numbers. [00:16:21] Jay McBain: It was the cheat code for sales, so that modern salesperson that knows how to orchestrate a deal, orchestrate the 28 moments with the seven partners and get to that final spot is the winning formula. HubSpot’s number in separate research was 84% in marketing. So we’re starting to see partners in here. We don’t have to shout from the mountaintops. [00:16:44] Jay McBain: These communities like ultimate Partner are working and we’re getting this to the highest levels in the board. And I’ll say that, you know, when 20 years from now half of the companies we know and love fail after we’re done writing the book and blaming the CEO for inventing the thing that ended up killing them, blaming the board for fiduciary responsibility and letting it happen. [00:17:06] Jay McBain: What are the other chapters of the book? And I think it’s all in one slide. We are in this platform economy and the. [00:17:31] Jay McBain: So your battery’s fine. Check, check, check, check. Alright, I’ll, I’ll just hold this in case, but the companies that execute on all five of these areas, well. Not only today become the trillion dollar valued companies, but they become the companies of tomorrow. These will be the fastest growing companies at every level. [00:17:50] Jay McBain: Not only running a platform business, but participating in other platforms. So this is how it breaks out, and there are people at very senior levels, at very big companies that have this now posted in the office of the CEO winning on integrations is everything. We just went through a demographic shift this year where 51% of our buyers are born after 1982. [00:18:15] Jay McBain: Millennials are the number one buyer of the $5 trillion. Their number one buying criteria is not service. Support your price, your brand reputation, it’s integrations. The buy a product, 80% is good as the next one if it works better in their environment. 79% of us won’t buy a car unless it has CarPlay or Android Auto. [00:18:34] Jay McBain: This is an integration world. The company with the most integrations win. Second, there are seven partners that surround the customer. Highly trusted partners. We’re talking, coaching the customer’s, kids soccer team, having a cottage together up at the lake. You know, best men, bate of honors at weddings type of relationships. [00:18:57] Jay McBain: You can’t maybe have all seven, but how does Microsoft beat AWS? They might have had two, three, or four of them saying nice things about them instead of the competition. Winning in service partnerships and channel partnerships changes by category. If you’re selling MarTech, only 10% of it today is resold, so you build more on service partnerships. [00:19:18] Jay McBain: If you’re in cybersecurity today, 91.6% of it is resold. Transacted through partners. So you build a lot of channel partnerships, plus the service partnerships, whatever the mix is in your category, you have to have two or three of those seven people. Saying nice things about you at every stage of the customer journey. [00:19:38] Jay McBain: Now move over to alliances. We have already built the platforms at the hyperscale level. We’ve built the platforms within SaaS, Salesforce, ServiceNow, Workday, Marketo, NetSuite, HubSpot. Every buyer has a set of platforms that they buy. We’ve now built them in cybersecurity this year out of 6,500 as high as cyber companies, the top five are starting to separate. [00:20:02] Jay McBain: We built it in distribution, which I’ll show in a minute. We’re building it in Telco. This is a platform economy and alliances win and you have alliances with your competitors ’cause you compete in the morning, but you’re best friends by the afternoon. Winning in other platforms is just as important as driving your own. [00:20:20] Jay McBain: And probably the most important part of this is go to market. That sales, that marketing, the 28 moments, the every 30 days forever become all a partner strategy. So there’s still CEOs out there that believe platform is a UI or UX on a bunch of disparate products and things you’ve acquired. There’s still CFOs out there that Think platform is a pricing model, a bundle model of just getting everything under one, you know, subscription price or consumption price. [00:20:51] Jay McBain: And it’s not, platforms are synonymous with partnerships. This is the way forward and there’s no conversation around ai. That doesn’t involve Nvidia over there, an open AI over here and a hyperscaler over there and a SaaS company over here. The seven layer stack wins every single time, and the companies that get this will be the ones that survive this cycle. [00:21:16] Jay McBain: Now, flipping over to marketplaces. So we had written research that, um, about five years ago that marketplaces were going to grow at 82% compounded. Yeah, probably one of the most accurate predictions we ever made, because it happened, we, we predicted that, uh, we were gonna get up to about $85 billion. Well, now we’ve extended that to 2030, so we’re gonna get up to $163 billion, and the thing that we’re watching is in green. [00:21:46] Jay McBain: If 96% of these deals are partner assisted in some way, how is the economics of partnering going to work? We predicted that 50% of deals by 2027. Would be partner funded in some way. Private offers multi-partner offers distributor sellers of record, and now that extends to 59% by 2030, the most senior leader of the biggest marketplace AWS, just said to us they’re gonna probably make these numbers on their own. [00:22:14] Jay McBain: And he asked what their two competitors are doing. So he’s telling us that we under called this. Now when you look at each of the press releases, and this is the AWS Billion Dollar Club. Every one of the companies on the left have issued a press release that they’re in the billion dollar club. Some of them are in the multi-billions, but I want you to double click on this press release. [00:22:35] Jay McBain: I’m quoted in here somewhere, but as CrowdStrike is building the marketplace at 91% compounded, they’re almost doubling their revenue every single year. They’re growing the partner funding, in this case, distributor funding by 3548%. Almost triple digit growth in marketplace is translating into almost quadruple digit growth in funding. [00:23:01] Jay McBain: And you see that over and over again as, as Splunk hit three, uh, billion dollars. The same. Salesforce hit $2 billion on AWS in Ulti, 18 months. They joined in October 20, 23, and 18 months later, they’re already at $2 billion. But now you’re seeing at Salesforce, which by the way. Grew up to $40 billion in revenue direct, almost not a nickel in resell. [00:23:28] Jay McBain: Made it really difficult for VARs and managed service providers to work with Salesforce because they couldn’t understand how to add services to something they didn’t book the revenue for. While $40 billion companies now seeing 70% of their deals come through partners. So this is just the world that we’re in. [00:23:44] Jay McBain: It doesn’t matter who you are and what industry you’re in, this takes place. But now we’re starting to see for the first time. Partners join the billion dollar club. So you wonder about partnering and all this funding and everything that’s working through Now you’re seeing press releases and companies that are redoing their LinkedIn branding about joining this illustrious club without a product to sell and all the services that wrap around it. [00:24:10] Jay McBain: So the opening session on Microsoft was interesting because there’s been a number of changes that Microsoft has done just in the last 30 days. One is they cut distribution by two thirds going from 180 distributors to 62. They cut out any small partner lower than a thousand dollars, and that doesn’t sound like a lot, but that’s over a hundred thousand partners that get deed tightening the long tail. [00:24:38] Jay McBain: They we’re the first to really put a global point system in place three years ago. They went to the new commerce experience. If you remember, all kinds of changes being led by. The biggest company for the channel. And so when we’re studying marketplaces, we’re not just studying the three hyperscalers, we’re studying what TD Cynic is doing with Stream One Ingram’s doing with Advant Advantage Aerosphere. [00:25:01] Jay McBain: Also, we’re watching what PAX eight, who by the way, is the 365 bestseller for Microsoft in the world. They are the cybersecurity leader for Microsoft in the world and the copilot. Leader in the world for Microsoft and Partner of the Year for Microsoft. So we’re watching what the cloud platforms are doing, watching what the Telco are doing, which is 25 cents out of every dollar, if you remember that pie chart, watching what the biggest resellers are converting themselves into. [00:25:30] Jay McBain: Vince just mentioned, you know, SHI in the changes there watching the managed services market and the leaders there, what they’re doing in terms of how this industry’s moving forward. By the way, managed services at $608 billion this year. Is one and a half times larger than the SaaS industry overall. [00:25:48] Jay McBain: It’s also one and a half times larger than all the hyperscalers combined. Oracle, Alibaba, IBM, all the way down. This is a massive market and it makes up 15 to 20 cents of every dollar the customer spend. We’re watching that industry hit a trillion dollars by the end of the decade, and we’re watching 150 different marketplace development platforms, the distribution of our industry, which today is 70.1% indirect. [00:26:13] Jay McBain: We’re starting to see that number, uh, solidify in terms of marketplaces as well. Watching distributors go from that linear warehouse in a bank to this orchestration model, watching some of the biggest players as the world comes around, platforms, it tightens around the place. So Caresoft, uh, from from here is the sixth biggest distributor in the world. [00:26:40] Jay McBain: Just shows you how big the. You know, biggest client in the world is that they serve. But understand that we’re publishing the distributor 500 list, but it’ll be the same thing. That little group in blue in the middle today, you know, drives almost two thirds of the market. So what happens in all this next stage in terms of where the dollars change hands. [00:27:07] Jay McBain: And the economics of partnering themselves are going through the most radical shift that we’ve seen ever. So back to the nineties, and, and for those of you that have been channel chiefs and running programs, we went to work every day. You know, everything’s on fire. We’re trying to check hundred boxes, trying to make our program 10% better than our competitors. [00:27:30] Jay McBain: Hey, we gotta fix our deal registration program today, and our incentives are outta whack or training programs or. You know, not where they need to be. Our certification, you know, this was the life of, uh, of a channel chief. Everybody thought we were just out drinking in the Caribbean with our best partners, but we were under the weight of this. [00:27:49] Jay McBain: But something interesting has happened is that we turned around and put the customer at the middle of our programs to say that those 28 moments in green before the sale are really, really important. And the seven partners who participate are really important. Understanding. The customer’s gonna buy a seven layer stack. [00:28:09] Jay McBain: They’re gonna buy it With these seven partners, the procurement stage is much different. The growth of marketplaces, the growth of direct in some of these areas, and then long term every 30 days forever in a managed service, implementations, integrations, how you upsell, cross-sell, enrich a deal changes. So how would you build a program that’s wrapped around the customer instead of the vendor? [00:28:35] Jay McBain: And we’re starting to hear our partners shout back to us. These are global surveys, big numbers, but over half of our partners, regardless of type, are selling consulting to their customer. Over half are designing architecting deals. A third of them are trying to be system integrators showing up at those implementation integration moments. [00:28:55] Jay McBain: Two thirds of them are doing managed services, but the shocking one here is 44% of our partners, regardless of type, are coding. They’re building agents and they’re out helping their customer at that level. So this is the modern partner that says, don’t typecast me. You may have thought of me in your program. [00:29:14] Jay McBain: You might have me slotted as a var. Well, I do 3.2 things, and if I don’t get access to those resources, if you don’t walk me to that room, I’m not gonna do them with you. You may have me as a managed service provider that’s only in the morning. By the afternoon I’m coding, and by the next morning I’m implementing and consulting. [00:29:33] Jay McBain: So again, a partner’s not a partner. That Venn diagram is a very loose one now, as every partner on there is doing 3.2 different business models. And again, they’re telling us for 43 years, they said, I want more leads this year it changed. For the first time, I want to be recognized and incentivized as more than just a cash register for you. [00:29:57] Jay McBain: I want you to recognize when I’m consulting, when I’m designing, when you’re winning deals, because of my wonderful services, by the way, we asked the follow up question, well, where should we spend our money with you? And they overwhelmingly say, in the consulting stage, you win and lose deals. Not at moment 28. [00:30:18] Jay McBain: We’re not buying a pack of gum at the gas station. This is a considered purchase. You win deals from moment 12 through 16 and I’m gonna show you a picture of that later, and they say, you better be spending your money there, or you’re not gonna win your fair share or more than your fair share of deals. [00:30:36] Jay McBain: The shocking thing about this is that Microsoft, when they went to the point system, lifted two thirds of all the money, tens of billions of dollars, and put it post-sale, and we were all scratching our heads going. Well, if the partners are asking for it there, and it seems like to beat your biggest competitors, you want to win there. [00:30:54] Jay McBain: Why would you spend the money on renewal? Well, they went to Wall Street and Goldman Sachs and the people who lift trillions of dollars of pension funds and said, if we renew deals at 108%, we become a cash machine for you. And we think that’s more valuable than a company coming out with a new cell phone in September and selling a lot of them by Christmas every year. [00:31:18] Jay McBain: The industry. And by the way, wall Street responded, Microsoft has been more valuable than Apple since. So we talk in this now multiplier language, and these are reports that we write, uh, at AMIA at canals. But talking about the partner opportunity in that customer cycle, the $6 and 40 cents you can make for every dollar of consumption, or the $7 and 5 cents you can make the $8 and 45 cents you can make. [00:31:46] Jay McBain: There’s over 24 companies speaking at this level now, and guess what? It’s not just cloud or software companies. Hardware companies are starting to speak in this language, and on January 25th, Cisco, you know, probably second to Microsoft in terms of trust built with the channel globally is moving to a full point system. [00:32:09] Jay McBain: So these are the changes that happen fast. But your QBR with your partners now less about drinking beers at the hotel lobby bar and talking dollar by dollar where these opportunities are. So if you’re doing 3.2 of these things, let’s build out a, uh, a play where you can make $3 for every dollar that we make. [00:32:28] Jay McBain: And you make that profitably. You make it in sticky, highly retained business, and that’s the model. ’cause if you make $3 for every dollar. We make, you’re gonna win Partner of the year, and if you win partner of the year, that piece of glass that you win on stage, by the time you get back to your table, you’re gonna have three offers to buy your business. [00:32:51] Jay McBain: CDW just bought a w. S’s Partner of the Year. Insight bought Google’s eight time partner of the year. Presidio bought ServiceNow’s, partner of the year over and over and over again. So I’m at Octane, I’m at CrowdStrike, I’m at all these events in Vegas every week. I’m watching these partners of the year. [00:33:05] Jay McBain: And I’m watching as the big resellers. I’m watching as the GSIs and the m and a folks are surrounding their table after, and they’re selling their businesses for SaaS level valuations. Not the one-to-one service valuation. They’re getting multiples because this is the new future of our industry. This is platform economics. [00:33:25] Jay McBain: This is winning and platforms for partners. Now, like Vince, I spent 20 minutes without talking about ai, but we have to talk about ai. So the next 20 years as it plays out is gonna play out in phases. And the first thing you know to get it out of the way. The first two years since that March of 23, has been underwhelming, to say the least. [00:33:47] Jay McBain: It’s been disappointing. All the companies that should have won the biggest in AI have been the most disappointing. It’s underperformed the s and p by a considerable amount in terms of where we are. And it goes back to this. We always overestimate the first two years, but we underestimate the first 10. [00:34:07] Jay McBain: If you wanna be the point in time person and go look at that 1983 PC or the 1995 internet or that 2007 iPhone or that whatever point in time you wanna look at, or if you want to talk about hallucinations or where chat chip ET version five is version, as opposed to where it’s going to be as it improves every six months here on in. [00:34:30] Jay McBain: But the fact of the matter is, it’s been a consumer trend. Nvidia got to be the most valuable company in the world. OpenAI was the first company to 2 billion users, uh, in that amount of speed. It’s the fastest growing product ever in history, and it’s been a consumer win this trillions of dollars to get it thrown around in the press releases. [00:34:49] Jay McBain: They’re going out every day, you know, open ai, signing up somebody new or Nvidia, investing in somebody new almost every single day in hundreds of billions of dollars. It is all happening really on the consumer side. So we got a little bit worried and said, is that 96% of surround gonna work in ag agentic ai? [00:35:10] Jay McBain: So we went and asked, and the good news is 88% of end customers are using partners to work through their ag agentic strategy. Even though they’re moving slow, they’re actually using partners. But what’s interesting from a partner perspective, and this is new research that out till 2030. This is the number one services opportunity in the entire tech or telco industry. [00:35:34] Jay McBain: 35.3% compounded growth ending at $267 billion in services. Companies are rebuilding themselves, building out practices, and getting on this train and figuring out which vendors they should hook their caboose to as those trains leave the station. But it kind of plays out like this. So in the next three to five years, we’re in this generative, moving into agentic phase. [00:36:01] Jay McBain: Every partner thinks internally first, the sales and marketing. They’re thinking about their invoicing and billing. They’re thinking about their service tickets. They’re thinking about creating a business that’s 10% better than their competitors, taking that knowledge into their customers and drive in business. [00:36:17] Jay McBain: But we understand that ag agentic AI, as it’s going to play out is not a product. A couple of years ago, we thought maybe a copilot or an agent force or something was going to be the product that everybody needed to buy, and it’s not a product, it’s gonna show up as a feature. So you go back in the history of feature ads and it’s gonna show up in software. [00:36:38] Jay McBain: So if you’re calling in SMB, maybe you’re calling on a restaurant. The restaurant isn’t gonna call OpenAI or call Microsoft or call Nvidia directly. They’re running their restaurant. And they may have chosen a platform like Toast Square, Clover, whatever iPads people are running around with, runs on a platform that does everything in their business, does staffing, does food ordering, works with Uber Eats, does everything end to end? [00:37:08] Jay McBain: They’re gonna wait to one of those platforms, dries out agent AI for them, and can run the restaurant more effectively, less human capital and more consistently, but they wait for the SaaS platform as you get larger. A hundred, 150 people. You have vice presidents. Each of those vice presidents already have a SaaS stack. [00:37:28] Jay McBain: I talked about Salesforce, ServiceNow, Workday, et cetera. They’ve already built that seven layer model and in some cases it’s 70 layers. But the fact is, is they’re gonna wait for those SaaS layers to deliver ag agentic to them. So this is how it’s gonna play out for the next three and a half, three to five years. [00:37:45] Jay McBain: And partners are realizing that many of them were slow to pick up SaaS ’cause they didn’t resell it. Well now to win in this next three to half, three to five years, you’re gonna have to play in this environment. When you start looking out from here, the next generation, you know, kind of five through 15 years gets interesting in more of a physical sense. [00:38:06] Jay McBain: Where I was yesterday talking about every IOT device that now is internet access, starts to get access to large language models. Every little sensor, every camera, everything that’s out there starts to get smart. But there’s a point. The first trillionaire, I believe, will be created here. Elon’s already halfway there. [00:38:24] Jay McBain: Um, but when Bill Gates thought there was gonna be a PC in every home, and IBM thought they were gonna sell 10,000 to hobbyists, that created the richest person in the world for 20 years, there will be a humanoid in every home. There’s gonna be a point in time that you’re out having drinks with your friends, and somebody’s gonna say, the early adopter of your friends is gonna say. [00:38:46] Jay McBain: I haven’t done the dishes in six weeks. I haven’t done the laundry. I haven’t made my bed. I haven’t mowed the lawn. When they say that, you’re gonna say, well, how? And they’re gonna say, well, this year I didn’t buy a new car, but I went to the car dealership and I bought this. So we’re very close to the dexterity needed. [00:39:05] Jay McBain: We’ve got the large language models. Now. The chat, GPT version 10 by then is going to make an insane, and every house is gonna have one of the. [00:39:17] Jay McBain: This is the promise of ai. It’s not humanoid robots, it’s not agents. It’s this. 99% of the world’s business data has not been trained or tuned into models yet. Again, this is the slow moving business. If you want to think about the 99% of business data, every flight we’ve all taken in this room sits on a saber system that was put in place in 1964. [00:39:43] Jay McBain: Every banking transaction, we’ve all made, every withdrawal, every deposit sits on an IBM mainframe put in place in the sixties or seventies. 83% of this data sits in cold storage at the edge. It’s not ready to be moved. It’s not cleansed, it’s not, um, indexed. It’s not in any format or sitting on any infrastructure that a large language model will be able to gobble up the data. [00:40:10] Jay McBain: None of the workflows, none of the programming on top of that data is yet ready. So this is your 10 to 20 year arc of this era that chat bot today when they cancel your flight is cute. It’s empathetic, it feels bad for you, or at least it seems to, but it can’t do anything. It can’t book you the Marriott and get you an Uber and then a 5:00 AM flight the next morning. [00:40:34] Jay McBain: It can’t do any of that. But more importantly, it doesn’t know who you are. I’ve got 53 years of flights under my belt and they, I’m the person that get me within six hours of my kids and get me a one-way Hertz rental. You know, if there’s bad weather in Miami, get me to Tampa, get me a Hertz, I’m driving home, I’m gonna make it home. [00:40:56] Jay McBain: I’m not the 5:00 AM get me a hotel person. They would know that if they picked up the flights that I’ve taken in the past. Each of us are different. When you get access to the business data and you become ag agentic, everything changes. Every industry changes because of this around the customers. When you ask about this 35% growth, working on that data, working in traditional consulting and design and implementation, working in the $7 trillion of infrastructure, storage, compute, networking, that’s gonna be around, this is a massive opportunity. [00:41:30] Jay McBain: Services are gonna continue to outgrow products. Probably for the next five to 10 years because of this, and I’m gonna finish here. So we talked a lot about quantifying names, faces, places, and I think where we failed the most as ultimate partners is underneath the tam, which every one of our CEOs knows to the decimal point underneath the TAM that our board thinks they’re chasing. [00:41:59] Jay McBain: We’ve done a very poor job. Of talking about the available markets and obtainable markets underneath it, we, we’ve shown them theory. We’ve shown them a bunch of, you know, really smart stuff, and PowerPoint slides up the wazoo, but we’ve never quantified it for them. If they wanna win, if they want to get access, if they want to double their pipeline, triple their pipeline, if they wanna start winning more deals, if they wanna win deals that are three times larger, they close two times faster. [00:42:31] Jay McBain: And they renew 15% larger. They have to get into the available and obtainable markets. So just in the last couple weeks I spoke at Cribble, I spoke at Octane, I spoke at CrowdStrike Falcon. All three of those companies at the CEO level, main stage use those exact three numbers, three x, two x, 15%. That’s the language of platforms, and they’re investing millions and millions and millions of dollars on teams. [00:42:59] Jay McBain: To go build out the Sam Andal in name spaces and places. So you’ve heard me talk about these 28 moments a lot. They’re the ones that you spend when you buy a car. Some people spend one moment and they drive to the Cadillac dealership. ’cause Larry’s been, you know, taking care of the family for 50 years. [00:43:18] Jay McBain: Some people spend 50 moments like I do, watching every YouTube video and every, you know, thing on the internet. I clear the internet cover to cover. But the fact is, is every deal averages around these 28 moments. Your customer, there’s 13 members of the buying committee today. There’s seven partners and they’re buying seven things. [00:43:37] Jay McBain: There’s 27 things orchestrating inside these 28 moments. And where and how they all take place is a story of partnering. So a couple of years ago, canals. Latin for channel was acquired by amia, which is a part of Informa Tech Target, which is majority owned by Informa. All that being said, there’s hundreds of magazines that we have. [00:44:00] Jay McBain: There’s hundreds of events that we run. If somebody’s buying cybersecurity, they probably went to Black Hat or they probably went to GI Tech. One of these events we run, or one of the magazines. So we pick up these signals, these buyer intent signals as a company. Why did they wanna, um, buy a, uh, a Canals, which was a, you know, a small analyst firm around channels? [00:44:22] Jay McBain: They understood this as well. The 28 moments look a lot like this when marketers and salespeople are busy filling in the spots of every deal. And by the way, this is a real deal. AstraZeneca came in to spend millions of dollars on ASAP transformation, and you can start to see as the customer got smart. [00:44:45] Jay McBain: The eBooks, they read the podcasts, they listened to the events they went to. You start to see how this played out over the long term. But the thing we’ve never had in our industry is the light blue boxes. This deal was won and lost in December. In this particular case, NTT software won and Yash came in and sold the customer five projects. [00:45:07] Jay McBain: The millions of dollars that were going to be spent were solved here. The design and architecture work was all done here. A couple of ISVs You see in light blue came in right at the end, deal was closed in April. You see the six month cycle. But what if you could fill in every one of the 28 boxes in every single customer prospect that your sales and marketing team have? [00:45:30] Jay McBain: But here’s the brilliance of this. Those light blue boxes didn’t win the deals there. They won the deals months before that. So when NTT and Software one walked into this deal. They probably won the deal back in October and they had to go through the redlining. They had to go through the contracting, they had to go through all the stuff and the Gantt chart to get started. [00:45:54] Jay McBain: But while your CMO is getting all excited about somebody reading an ebook and triggering an MQL that the sales team doesn’t want, ’cause it’s not qualified, it’s not sales qualified, you walk in and say, no, no. This is a multimillion deal, dollar deal. It’s AstraZeneca. I know the five partners that are coming in in December to solidify the seven layers, and you’re walking in at the same time as the CMOs bragging about an ebook. [00:46:21] Jay McBain: This changes everything. If we could get to this level of data about every dollar of our tam, we not only outgrow our competitors, we become the platforms of the next generation. Partnering and ultimate partnering is all here. And this is what we’re doing in this room. This is what we’re doing over these couple of days, and this is what, uh, the mission that Vince is leading. [00:46:43] Jay McBain: Thank you so much. [00:46:47] Vince Menzione: Woo. Day in the house. Good to see you my friend. Good to see you. Oh, we’re gonna spend a couple minutes. Um, I’m put you in the second seat. We’re gonna put, we’re gonna make it sit fireside for a minute. Uh, that was intense. It was pretty incredible actually, Jay. And so I’m, I think I wanna open it up ’cause we only have a few minutes just to, any questions? [00:47:06] Vince Menzione: I’m sure people are just digesting. We already have one up here. See, [00:47:09] Question: Jay knows I’m [00:47:10] Vince Menzione: a question. I love it. We, I don’t think we have any I can grab a mic, a roving mic. I could be a roving mic person. Hold on. We can do this. This is not on. [00:47:25] Vince Menzione: Test, test. Yes it is. Yeah. [00:47:26] Question: Theresa Carriol dared me to ask a question and I say, you don’t have to dare me. You know, I’m going to Anyway. Um, so Jay, of the point of view that with all of the new AI players that strategic alliances is again having a moment, and I was curious your point of view on what you’re seeing around this emergence and trend of strategic alliances and strategic alliance management. [00:47:52] Question: As compared to channel management. And what are you seeing in terms of large vendors like AWS investing in that strategic alliance role versus that channel role training, enablement, measurement, all that good stuff? [00:48:06] Jay McBain: Yeah, it’s, it’s a great question. So when I told the story about toast at the restaurant or Square or Clover, they’re not call, they’re not gonna call open AI or Nvidia themselves either. [00:48:17] Jay McBain: When you look out at the 250,000 ISVs. That make up this AI stack, there is the layers that happen there. So the Alliance with AWS, the alliance they have with Microsoft or Google is going to be how they generate agent AI in their platforms. So when I talk about a seven layer stack, the average deal being seven layers, AI is gonna drive this to nine, and then 11, then probably 13. [00:48:44] Jay McBain: So in terms of how alliances work, I had it up there as one of the five core strategies, and I think it’s pretty even. You can have the best alliances in the world, but if the seven partners trusted by the customer don’t know what that alliance is and the benefits to the customer and never mention it, it’s all for Naugh. [00:49:00] Jay McBain: If you’re go-to market, you’re co-selling, your co-marketing strategies are not built around that alliance. It’s all for naught. If the integration and the co-innovation, the co-development, the all the co-creation work that’s done inside these alliances isn’t translated to customer outcomes, it’s all for naugh. [00:49:17] Jay McBain: These are all five parallel swim lanes. All five are absolutely critically needed. And I think they’re all five pretty equally weighted in terms of needing each other. Yes. To be successful in the era of platforms. Yeah. [00:49:32] Vince Menzione: And the problem is they’re all stove pipe today. If, if at all. Yeah. Maintained, right. [00:49:36] Vince Menzione: Alliances is an example. Channels and other example. They don’t talk to one another. Judge any, we’ve got a mic up here if anybody else has. Yep. We have some questions here, Jacqueline. [00:49:51] Question: So when we’re developing our channel programs, any advice on, you know, what’s the shift that we should make six months from now, a year from now? The historical has been bronze, silver, gold, right? And you’ve got your deal registration, but what’s the future look like? [00:50:05] Jay McBain: Yeah, so I mean, the programs are, are changing to, to the point where the customer should be in the middle and realizing the seven partners you need to win the deal. [00:50:15] Jay McBain: And depending on what category of product you’re in, security, how much you rely on resell, 91.6%. You know, the channel partners are gonna be critical where the customer spends the money. And if you’re adding friction to that process, you’re adding friction in terms of your growth. So you know, if you’re in cybersecurity, you have to have a pretty wide open reseller model. [00:50:39] Jay McBain: You have to have a wide open distribution model, and you have to make sure you’re there at that point of sale. While at the same time, considering the other six partners at moment 12 who are in either saying nice things about you or not, the customer might even be starting with you. ’cause there is actually one thing that I didn’t mention when I showed the 28 moments filled in. [00:51:00] Jay McBain: You’ll notice that the customer went to AWS twice direct. AWS lost the deal. Microsoft won the deal software. One is Microsoft’s biggest reseller in the world. They just acquired crayon. NTT who, who loves both had their Microsoft team go in. [00:51:18] Question: Mm. [00:51:19] Jay McBain: So I think that they went to AWS thinking it was A-W-S-S-A-P, you know, kind of starting this seven layer stack. [00:51:25] Jay McBain: I think they finished those, you know, critical moments in the middle looking at it. And then they went back to AWS kind of going probably WWTF. Yeah. What we thought was happening isn’t actually the outcome that was painted by our most trusted people. So, you know, to answer your question, listen to your partners. [00:51:43] Jay McBain: They want to be recognized for the other things they’re doing. You can’t be spending a hundred percent of the dollars at the point of sale. You gotta have a point of system that recognizes the point of sale, maybe even gold, silver, bronze, but recognizing that you’re paying for these other moments as well. [00:51:57] Jay McBain: Paying for alliances, paying for integrations and everything else, uh, in the cyber stack. And, um, you know, recognizing also the top 1000. So if I took your tam. And I overlaid those thousand logos. I would be walking into 2026 the best I could of showing my company logo by logo, where 80% of our TAM sits as wallet share, not by revenue. [00:52:25] Jay McBain: Remember, a million dollar partner is not a million dollar partner. One of them sells 1.2 million in our category. We should buy them a baseball cap and have ’em sit in the front row of our event. One of them sells $10 million and only sells our stuff if the customer asks. So my company should be looking at that $9 million opportunity and making sure my programs are writing the checks and my coverage. [00:52:48] Jay McBain: My capacity and capability planning is getting obsessed over that $9 million. My farmers can go over there, my hunters can go over here, and I should be submitting a list of a thousand sorted in descending order of opportunity. Of where my company can write program dollars into. [00:53:07] Vince Menzione: Great answer. All right. I, I do wanna be cognizant of time and the, all the other sessions we have. [00:53:14] Vince Menzione: So we’ll just take one other question if there are any here and if not, we’ll let I know. Jay, you’re gonna be mingling around for a little while before your flight. I’m [00:53:21] Jay McBain: here the whole day. [00:53:22] Vince Menzione: You, you’re the whole day. I see that Jay’s here the whole day. So if you have any other questions and, and, uh, sharing the deck is that. [00:53:29] Vince Menzione: Yep. Alright. We have permission to share the deck with the each of you as well. [00:53:34] Jay McBain: Alright, well thank you very much everyone. Jay. Great to have you.

A CMO Confidential Interview with Tom Stein, the Chairman and founder of Stein and Jann Schwarz, Senior Director of Marketplace Innovation at LinkedIn and founder of Think tank, The B2B Institute, who join us to discuss the 2025 Brand-to- Demand Maturity and the B2B Buyability studies. Tom and Jann share results showing the need to integrate brand and performance marketing in an era when the marketing funnel has collapsed needs fundamental re-thinking and Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs) are still a key measure (in spite of data showing they've lost their usefulness). Tom and Jann explain why nearly all survey respondents acknowledge a problem but only 20% are taking action. Key topics include: why a good product or service are now "table stakes”; how buyer confidence, human connection and customer experience have become key Buyability differentiators; and the belief that B2B creative is way behind B2C on average. Tune in to hear why “demand-focused marketing" was one of the greatest brand misdirects of all time and a fabulous story of an alter boy accidentally dropping the Baby Jesus. The Truth Behind the Curtain in B2B: Brand + Demand, MQLs, and “Buyability” with Tom Stein & Jan SchwartzDescription:Mike Linton sits down with Tom Stein (Stein) and Jan Schwartz (LinkedIn's B2B Institute) to unpack new ANA research on brand–demand maturity and a bold operating model they call “buyability.” They cover why 80% of marketers say integration matters but aren't doing it, why MQLs are failing modern buying groups, how to financialize creative and brand, and what CEOs/boards should actually measure to accelerate revenue. Chapters:00:00 Intro & guest setup02:36 Why a brand–demand maturity study now05:36 The 80% integration gap07:17 Org design: why teams move slowly09:36 MQLs under fire (and better alternatives)10:45 Creative quality in B2B: reality check13:34 ServiceNow, Idris Elba, and distinctive assets15:01 The CEO/CFO/Board disconnect19:00 “Buyability” explained: becoming easier to buy22:12 Brand as a full-funnel commercial driver23:40 The funnel is broken; AI ups the stakes26:59 Playing offense: fewer, better buyer-group leads28:20 Financializing the case for change29:56 The budget stat that shocked everyone31:41 What to do now: category fame, trust, real metrics34:41 Funniest stories and practical parting advice37:35 Wrap & where to find more episodesTags:B2B marketing,brand and demand,buyability,MQL,pipeline velocity,CMO Confidential,Mike Linton,Tom Stein,Jan Schwartz,LinkedIn B2B Institute,ANA,B2B brand,B2B demand gen,marketing measurement,go to market,Salesforce,ServiceNow,Idris Elba,B2B creative,category fame,board metrics,CFO,CEO,CRO,sales alignment,MarTech,lead gen,buyer groups,brand strategy,revenue growthSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

So, what does Marketing ops actually look like? Atlassian's Head of Lifecycle Marketing Ops Kelly Jo Horton joins Daniel to break down what ops actually is, why it's so complex, and how high-performing teams are evolving the function for 2026 and beyond. She explains why MOPS isn't “just sending an email,” why process is everything, and why marketers need to stop treating ops like a drive-thru and start treating it like a Michelin-star kitchen. She also reveals how Atlassian structures its ops organization and why she believes the MQL is officially dead. You'll also learn: >  What modern Marketing Ops actually does and why it varies by company > How AI can automate repetitive ops tasks (like list cleaning and lead investigations) > How Atlassian uses Jira, Confluence, Slack bots, and Loom to run ops like engineering This is for anyone in Marketing, rev ops, or GTM who wants to build a scalable system…and for every Marketer who's ever said “it's just an email.” Easily record and share AI-powered video messages with your teammates and customers to supercharge productivity at https://www.loom.com/ Follow Kelly Jo: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellyjohorton/ Follow Daniel: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-murray-marketing/ Sign up for The Marketing Millennials newsletter: https://themarketingmillennials.com/ Daniel is a Workweek friend, working to produce amazing podcasts. To find out more, visit: https://workweek.com/

Why Sales & Marketing Broke (And How to Rebuild a Modern Revenue System) ft. Tony J HughesMost teams feel the symptoms — pipeline gaps, misaligned targets, MQL chaos, sellers chasing “now or never” deals.But those are signals of a deeper problem: the revenue system itself is broken.In this episode, we sit down with Tony J Hughes and Adem Manderovic to unpack why sales and marketing drifted apart… and how to rebuild a modern revenue system that actually matches how buyers make decisions today.We get into:Why predictable revenue models collapsedHow sales stopped validating the marketHow marketing lost strategic direction to MQL targetsAnd how to replace the old funnel with a closed-circuit GTM system that creates control and credibility again.We also talk ICP, cataloguing, air cover, performance gaps, and Tony's new book Sentient — plus what AI means for the future of selling.Tune in and learn:Why the old sales & marketing playbooks brokeHow to build a shared ICP that actually aligns both teamsWhy cataloguing is the foundation for a modern GTM systemHow to create air cover that supports real sales cyclesThe future of selling in a world of advanced AIIf you're a B2B marketer or sales leader stuck in the old predictable-revenue logic, this episode is your blueprint for rebuilding alignment and revenue performance from the ground up.-----------------------------------------------------

Databox is an easy-to-use Analytics Platform for growing businesses. We make it easy to centralize and view your entire company's marketing, sales, revenue, and product data in one place, so you always know how you're performing. Learn More About DataboxSubscribe to our newsletter for episode summaries, benchmark data, and moreMost marketers are told: “Tie your plan to revenue.” But how?In this fast-paced live episode, Sam Kuehnle (VP of Marketing at Loxo) breaks down a practical, no-fluff process for building a marketing plan that earns buy-in from leadership, aligns with sales, and actually hits targets.No vanity metrics. No fake forecasts. Just real talk on what's working, what's not — and how to plan smarter.In this episode, you'll learn:How to calculate marketing's share of company revenue goalsWhat “bottoms-up” and “top-down” planning really look likeWhy most funnels leak at the demo-to-meeting stageHow to avoid wasting budget on channels you haven't proven yetThe spreadsheet Sam uses to model all of thisThis is your playbook if you're tired of MQL theater and want to lead with strategy, not guesswork.

Hoe beweegt een klant écht door je funnel?In deze aflevering duiken we in de drie fases van de customer journey: inspiratie, informatie en conversie.Waarom zijn MQL's (via socials) anders dan SQL's (via je website)? En waarom gebeuren de twee belangrijkste switchmomenten altijd op jouw eigen kanaal?Je ontdekt:

Scrappy ABM keeps the focus on practical playbooks that don't break the bank, and this conversation stays locked on real-world execution. Host Mason Cosby sits down with Katerina Maerefat, who has repeatedly launched ABM at Quorum Software, OpenSesame, and Resilinc, shifting teams away from fully inbound spray-and-pray toward strategic account based marketing.ㅤAcross this breakdown of roughly sixteen industry-focused programs, Mason and Katerina walk through building an all ICP vertical play, centering on one unified account list, reliable targeting, predictive intent dials, and consistent execution across channels. They highlight how campaign infrastructure, a shared list across platforms, and full-funnel content tied to buying stages prevent random acts of marketing. Katerina shares specific examples of competitive displacement, partner marketing, all ICP programs, special reports, and field reports, then ties it all to pragmatic measurement, sales alignment, and account-based everything that actually reflects how revenue teams work.ㅤ

Refine Labs CEO Megan Bowen joins Evan Kirstel for a deep-dive into how B2B marketing must evolve for the AI era. The conversation covers modern go-to-market models, buyer-centric strategies, and how Refine Labs helps companies drive measurable pipeline growth through data, experimentation, and cultural excellence.1. Speakers and RolesMegan Bowen – CEO of Refine Labs. With 20 years in B2B SaaS at companies like Zocdoc, Grubhub, and WeWork, she brings deep expertise in modernizing go-to-market strategy and redefining marketing measurement.Evan Kirstel– Host and interviewer. Brings over 30 years in tech sales and marketing leadership.2. Topics CoveredThe evolution of B2B buying and selling from the analog to the AI era.Why traditional MQL-based marketing is outdated.The “Brand, Demand, Expand” model for full-funnel growth.Refine Labs' AI strategy and benchmarking methodology.Alignment between sales and marketing in 2025.The future of content creation and human creativity in an AI-driven market.Building company culture around people-first principles.The Refine Labs Vault: democratizing growth frameworks and insights.3. Questions This Video Helps AnswerWhat's fundamentally broken about traditional B2B marketing models?Why is the MQL metric no longer a reliable measure of success?How should marketers adapt to buyer-led decision-making?What is the “Brand, Demand, Expand” framework, and how does it work?How is AI transforming marketing operations and customer acquisition?How can companies build a people-first culture that drives performance?4. Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedCEO, CMO, VP of Marketing, Sales teams, Customer Success and Account Management, Marketing Operations and Creative roles, Content strategists and paid media managers5. Frameworks and Concepts MentionedBrand, Demand, Expand (three-pillar GTM framework)Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)Buyer-centric marketingAI-powered benchmarksRevenue funnel analysis and pipeline conversion optimization6. Related ResourcesRefine Labs: https://www.refinelabs.comThe Vault: access to Refine Labs frameworks and community.HubSpot (mentioned as part of inbound marketing evolution)Grandin Holdings (Refine Labs investment partner)

B2B companies struggle to prove SEO ROI beyond basic traffic metrics. Lindsie Nelson, VP of SEO at Symphonic Digital, shares proven frameworks for measuring search success in complex sales cycles where traditional ecommerce attribution fails. The discussion covers implementing MQL-to-SQL tracking systems that connect organic search to qualified pipeline, developing engagement depth metrics that reflect educated buyer behavior, and establishing core content topic measurement frameworks that align SEO performance with business outcomes.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Marketers are hooked on attribution perfection. Meanwhile, your buyers are ghosting and your “AI-powered” campaigns sound like everyone else's. What if the edge isn't more dashboards but it's better judgment?In this episode, Nicole Gates, VP Growth Marketing at Varonis tears up the playbook B2B keeps clinging to. She shows how a “process person” builds a launch machine that actually ships, why tiering by customer impact (not internal hype) changes everything, and how moving SDRs under marketing with real SLAs turns MQL theater into pipeline. We dig into the noisy AI arms race (robots fighting robots), shifting budget from paid-to-play to earned trust via thought leadership, and using AI where it improves outcomes (routing, enrichment, speed-to-lead), not where it creates slop.We also cover:How to tier your launches by what matters to customers, not your org chart.Why the best growth marketers think more like editors than analysts.What happens when you replace data obsession with decision confidence.

Send us a textIn this episode we interview David Malmborg, VP of Marketing and Sales at Boostability, where he oversees a hyper-scalable SEO offering for small businesses. What you'll learn in this episode:Concrete meeting cadences: weekly team sessions and tight one-on-ones that keep decisions crisp and accountable. A shared vocabulary for the funnel: clear, company-wide definitions for lead, MQL, SQL, and deal stages. “Revenue requirements” modeling: start from closed-won, work backward to meetings, deals, and per-source lead targets. Practical handoffs: how marketing returns closed-lost leads to nurture and when sales re-engages. Culture-aware communication: when Slack works, when live meetings win, and how to adapt to the team's habits. Customer-first consistency: align language across marketing, sales, and CS so the experience feels unified. QA at scale: use AI sentiment on calls to spot friction, tighten training, and shorten “issue review” meetings.

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!In this episode of OpsCast, hosted by Michael Hartmann and powered by MarketingOps.com, we're joined by Ellie Cary, Senior Demand Generation Manager at StarTree. Ellie shares her experience navigating marketing performance challenges, including what happens when teams hit MQL goals but still face cuts, and why ROI visibility has become critical for MOps leaders.Ellie discusses the limitations of attribution and reporting, how over-engineered models can create complexity, and what it takes to simplify processes while improving impact. She also shares insights on customer marketing, retention, and how MOps professionals can make their work more visible and strategic across the organization.In this episode, you'll learn:How to connect marketing performance to business outcomesThe risks of overcomplicated attribution and how to simplify itThe importance of foundational marketing processes for measurable ROIStrategies for MOps teams to communicate effectively with non-technical stakeholdersThis episode is ideal for marketing operations, demand generation, and growth professionals looking to strengthen their impact and visibility in the organization. Tune in for Ellie's actionable guidance on making MOps work matter.Episode Brought to You By MO Pros The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals Join us at MOps-Apalooza: https://mopsapalooza.com/Save 10% with code opscast10Support the show

This episode of the OnBase Podcast delivers a masterclass in building modern go-to-market strategies with ABM at their heart. Host Paul Gibson talks with Robert Norum about why a focused, account-based approach is no longer optional for B2B organizations—it's essential. Robert breaks down the journey from traditional, volume-based marketing to a sophisticated, tiered ABM model that aligns the entire organization.The conversation uncovers the most common challenges businesses face when adopting ABM, from securing leadership buy-in to managing expectations and moving beyond outdated MQL metrics. Robert provides a clear roadmap for success, emphasizing that ABM is not just a marketing tactic but a company-wide directive that unites sales, marketing, and customer success into a single, powerful growth engine.Listen to the full episode to gain the confidence and clarity needed to make ABM your primary GTM strategy.Key TakeawaysABM is the Go-to-Market StrategyFor enterprise organizations, ABM should be the central GTM strategy, not just another marketing program.Focus is EverythingAn account-based approach forces you to concentrate your budget, resources, and people on the accounts that truly matter..Alignment is Non-NegotiableSuccess depends on creating a "SWAT team" across sales, marketing, and customer success, all working toward shared account goals.Pilots Can Be a TrapTreating ABM as a short-term pilot is a recipe for failure; it requires long-term investment and commitment from the top down.Measure What MattersMove beyond MQLs and vanity metrics. Focus on moving the dial within target accounts, expanding your footprint, and creating real pipeline opportunities..Quotes"ABM is the glue that has the potential to really connect organizations and break down silos across different teams"Best Moments (04:37) – The Evolution of ABM: Robert discusses how ABM grew from a one-to-one approach for large enterprises to a scalable, multi-tiered strategy.(09:05) – The Case for Focus: Why concentrating on high-value accounts is the most critical decision a B2B business can make today.(20:12) – The Biggest ABM Challenge: The most common mistake companies make is diving in without defining what ABM means for their organization and getting leadership buy-in.(24:17) – The End of Silos: How an account-based approach fosters an equal partnership between sales and marketing.(30:50) – Winning Over Leadership: Strategies for building a compelling business case for ABM and getting the C-suite excited.(42:40) – The Role of AI: How AI will accelerate ABM, but human intelligence remains essential to brief, interpret, and quality-check the output.Resource RecommendationsBooks:Account-Based Marketing: The Definitive Handbook for B2B Marketers by Bev Burgess.Shout-OutsJon Miller - MarTech entrepreneur,Co-founder at Marketo and EngagioMarta George - Head of EMEA AMB Programmes, Ping Identity.Lianne O'Connor - Global Field & ABM Marketing Director, Fluke Corporation.Andy Johnson - Founder and Director of Client Strategy, HUT 3.Charlotte Graham-Cumming - CEO, Ice Blue Sky Corporation.About the GuestRobert Norum is a B2B Marketer with over 30 years experience. He has worked in magazine publishing, IT distribution, marketing agencies and for the last 20 years as an independent marketing consultant. During this time he has worked on brand, demandgen, channel, ecommerce and sales enablement. For the last 10 years he had specialised in ABM working with a number of leading agencies and directly for wide cross-section of global brands. Since 2017, he has delivered the ABM Essentials training course for B2B Marketing training over 750 marketing professionals in the process. Robert has also been the ABM and Demand Strategy Expert on Propolis since its launch.Connect with Robert.

Most GTM teamstoday are missing targets because they're simply measuring the wrong things. In this episode, Carolyn and Amber unpack why attribution is a mirage (it only shows the lucky 2% that become opportunities) and why the MQL hamster wheel keeps smart teams stuck optimizing a tiny slice of reality. We dig into the pre-pipeline “factory floor,” show how to expose the messy middle, and explain why “more volume” isn't a strategy—it's a cash leak.You'll hear concrete ways to replace vanity conversion stats with a causal view of attempts → connects → meetings → opps → DQs (with reasons), what to do about pipeline shock when you tighten scoring, and why pipeline needs a single owner (hint: not “marketing-sourced”). We also talk about modular change vs. big-bang transformations, and where attribution actually belongs (as seasoning, not the main ingredient), dig into where attribution actually belongs in GTM measurement (spoiler: it's seasoning, not the protein), and explain why modular change beats waiting for a full-scale transformation.What You'll Learn:Attribution ≠ answers: It validates the 2-5% that convert and hides the waste in the 98%.Kill the MQL hamster wheel: Measure the journey, not just MQL→SQL%.Instrument the factory floor: Person-level steps that predict pipeline (and the drop-offs to fix).Volume lies: “Do more dials” is a 2012 play—engineer repeatable patterns instead.Pipeline shock is healthy: Fewer junk opps → higher win rate and better CAC.One owner for pipeline: Align Sales + Marketing on quality pipeline, not credit.When to use attribution: After you fix data hygiene and pre-pipeline tracking.If your dashboards keep telling you to “get more leads” or “add more dials,” you're staring at the pipeline mirage. Break free from the hamster wheel, shine a light on the messy middle, and finally see what's really driving, or draining, your revenue.This episode is powered by Passetto, a GTM advisory and software company with a solution that eliminates the Pipeline Black Box™, the critical data hidden inside every GTM engine where leaders are flying blind when it matters most.

#277 Growth | Dave is joined by Emma Robinson, Head of B2B Marketing at Canva, and Kristine Segrist, VP of Consumer Marketing at Canva. Together, Emma and Kristine lead the teams driving Canva's growth across both enterprise and consumer audiences, helping the company scale into a platform now used by over 95% of the Fortune 500.Dave, Emma, and Kristine cover:How Canva balances brand-building with pipeline accountability, and why they view brand investment as long-term growth.The playbook Canva uses to turn bottom-up adoption into enterprise deals, including how product signals guide upsell and expansion.How their team structure, data science investments, and creative bets (like the Love Your Work campaign) work together to scale B2B marketing without losing Canva's approachable brand identity.This episode offers a practical look at how one of the world's most recognizable platforms approaches B2B growth.Timestamps(00:00) - – Intro (03:48) - – Canva's marketing org structure (06:48) - – Blurring B2B and B2C (11:48) - – How Canva measures marketing impact (16:48) - – Turning free users into enterprise deals (21:48) - – Data science's role in marketing (24:48) - – Balancing brand bets with ROI (31:23) - – Inside the “Love Your Work” campaign (38:23) - – How Canva executes large campaigns (42:23) - – Building enterprise credibility and trust (45:23) - – FedEx case study on brand governance (49:23) - – Lessons from Google and Meta (53:23) - – Why creativity is a marketing superpower (55:23) - – Closing thoughts Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

In this episode, we delve into the world of Account-Based Marketing (ABM) with Stuart Matthewman, who shares the hard-won lessons from IR's six-year journey with ABM. From early failures and misalignment issues to achieving an incredible 80X return on marketing spend, Stuart reveals the critical importance of sales and marketing alignment. He provides a detailed blueprint for implementing a successful ABM program. This episode is packed with actionable insights for B2B marketers looking to move beyond traditional lead generation tactics and build sustainable revenue growth through strategic account targeting. Guest Introduction Stuart Matthewman joined IR in 2014 and was promoted to CMO in 2022, having risen through the ranks and strengthened the marketing function. Under his leadership as CMO, he has been a key contributor to IR's remarkable growth, driving a 132% increase in revenue, a 289% growth in EBITDA, and a complete overhaul of the global marketing team. Stuart is a B2B CMO of the Year Finalist for 2025 and brings extensive experience leading global marketing teams across ASX-listed technology companies. Key Topics The early ABM struggles: Why IR's initial attempts at account-based marketing failed over six years, including issues with sales alignment and over-personalisation too earlyThe turning point: How bringing in new sales leadership and rebranding ABM as "Account Based Everything" (ABE) transformed their approach and resultsThe 12-16 week ABM process: A detailed breakdown of IR's structured approach, from pre-warming accounts to SDR activation and sales follow-up sequencesSales and marketing alignment: Practical strategies for getting sales teams fully bought into ABM programs and maintaining consistent executionSDRs under marketing: Why IR moved their SDR function from sales to marketing and the benefits this structure provides for ABM executionMeasuring ABM success: How IR tracks progress without traditional MQL metrics and focuses on account engagement and pipeline generationAI integration: Current experiments with AI to automate and scale ABM activities while maintaining personalisationBranding evolution: IR's journey from "Integrated Research" to "IR" and the market research that guided their brand consolidation strategy Resources & Links People Mentioned: Stuart Matthewman - CMO, IRByron Sharp - Director, Ehrenberg-Bass InstituteProfessor Jenni Romaniuk - Associate Director, Ehrenberg-Bass InstituteMark Ritson - Marketing Professor and Mini MBA FounderKerry Cunningham - 6Sense ABM ExpertKim Scott - Author of "Radical Candor"John Lombardo - B2B Institute (LinkedIn) Companies & Tools: IR (Integrated Research) - Performance monitoring software for critical IT infrastructureEhrenberg-Bass Institute - World's largest centre for marketing research6SenseDemandBase Books & Resources: "How Brands Grow" - Byron Sharp"How Brands Grow Part 2" - Byron Sharp and Jenni Romaniuk"Radical Candor" - Kim Scott"Better Brand Health" - Jenni Romaniuk"Building Distinctive Brand Assets" - Jenni RomaniukWomen in Product Marketing Podcast Subscribe to the xG Weekly Newsletter for weekly insights on B2B growth across APAC: https://xgrowth.com.au/newsletter Contact & Credits Host: Shahin Hoda Guest: Stuart Matthewman Produced by: Shahin Hoda and Alexander Hipwell Edited by: Alexander Hipwell Music by: Breakmaster Cylinder APAC's B2B Growth Podcast is Presented by xGrowth

#276 Career Growth | Dave is joined by Kady Srinivasan, CMO at You.com, an AI-first company building infrastructure for enterprise agents. Kady has led marketing at some of the world's most recognizable companies, including Dropbox, Klaviyo, and Lightspeed, where she scaled teams, drove massive revenue growth, and navigated ICP pivots. Now, she's bringing that experience into the fast-changing world of AI.Dave and Kady cover:How to evolve as a CMO across industries, personas, and business modelsThe three core systems CMOs need to scale teams and drive alignmentHow AI is reshaping marketing roles, workflows, and the skills future CMOs will needYou'll walk away with lessons you can apply to your own career, no matter what market or role you're in.Timestamps(00:00) - – Intro (03:03) - – From engineer to reluctant marketer (05:37) - – Gaming years and “coolest mom” cred (07:52) - – The story behind You.com's domain (09:31) - – Why she jumped into AI (12:00) - – Reinventing yourself as a CMO (14:00) - – Fundamentals that never change in marketing (16:13) - – Aligning marketing with company strategy (19:24) - – Pivoting the ICP at Lightspeed (22:26) - – Lessons on cross-functional alignment (25:08) - – Letting go to grow as a leader (27:53) - – Systems every CMO should set up (34:43) - – Why no single playbook works (36:24) - – How AI is reshaping marketing roles (51:04) - – Building an AI-first marketing org and closing thoughts Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

#275 LinkedIn Strategy | In this episode, Dave is joined by Brad Zomick, a B2B marketing consultant and host who has helped founders and executives build their presence on LinkedIn. Together they break down why a strong LinkedIn strategy is no longer optional for founders, it's one of the most effective growth levers in B2B today.Dave and Brad cover:Why LinkedIn is still the best channel for founders to build authority, attract talent, and connect with customersHow to turn everyday founder communications into high-impact LinkedIn contentThe unexpected ROI of founder-led content, from recruiting and partnerships to real-time message testingIf you've been wondering how to turn LinkedIn into a real growth engine for your brand, this episode is your blueprint.Timestamps(00:00) - – Intro (03:48) - – Early days of LinkedIn (09:18) - – Building Drift with founder brand (15:18) - – Why every founder needs LinkedIn (19:18) - – The hidden ROI of posting (27:53) - – Dave's personal posting system (31:23) - – How to never run out of content (35:23) - – Unexpected benefits of being visible (39:53) - – Is it too late to start? (42:53) - – Who inspires Dave today (45:08) - – What's next for Exit Five (46:53) - – Closing thoughts Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

#274 Growth | In this episode, Dave is joined by Sean Lane, Founding Partner at BeaconGTM and RevOps expert, to talk about scaling RevOps in B2B. With over a decade of experience at Drift and other B2B SaaS companies, Sean shares actionable tips for marketers looking to align operations with business goals.Dave and Sean cover:How to build alignment between sales, marketing, and opsWhy early-stage companies must align operational complexity with their growth maturityHow continuous planning helps marketing and ops teams stay agile as business challenges come upTimestamps(00:00) - - Intro to Sean (07:11) - - Going From Founder Led Sales to Having A Professional GTM (09:52) - - How Ops Bridges Business Goals (13:42) - - How To Align Sales, Marketing, and Operations (17:51) - - Why You Need A Clear Marketing Strategy (20:17) - - How To Build A Partnership Between Marketing and Operations (26:41) - - Guidelines for long term vs short term budgeting and planning (32:19) - - Marketing's Role At The Bottom Of The Funnel (37:14) - - How To Get “Hand-raisers” For Your Product In The Customer Journey (41:06) - - Do Engaged Accounts Measure The Success Of Marketing? (42:56) - - Sean's Podcast ROI (45:12) - - AI Use Cases In Ops (50:14) - - How To Hire A Good Ops Person (53:42) - - Closing Remarks Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!In this episode of Ops Cast by MarketingOps.com (powered by The MO Pros), hosts Michael Hartmann, Mike Rizzo, and Naomi Liu delve into one of the most discussed shifts in B2B marketing and revenue operations: the evolving roles of Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs) and Marketing Qualified Accounts (MQAs).In this episode, you'll learn:Why the traditional MQL model may be falling short and where MQAs step in.How to realign marketing and sales around shared intent signals.Common pitfalls when transitioning from MQLs to MQAs (and how to avoid them).Practical advice on shifting measurement frameworks to reflect real buyer behavior.To unpack this timely topic, they're joined by two accomplished leaders in RevOps and marketing strategy:Andrea Frazier, Senior Revenue Operations Technical Consultant, is known for her expertise in building scalable systems and aligning sales, marketing, and data. What makes her presence special on this podcast is that she will be a part of the Mopsapalooza as a speaker.Jessica Fewless, VP of Marketing and Partnerships, has deep experience in ABM, demand gen, and full-funnel program strategy.Together, they challenge long-standing definitions of buying intent and discuss how teams can evolve from lead-focused metrics to account-based signals that drive more aligned, strategic growth.Tune in now, because whether you're in Marketing Ops, RevOps, or Demand Gen, this episode offers an expert-led perspective on what it means to qualify, measure, and act on intent in today's B2B environment.Check out our complete toolkit for helping you move from MQLs to MQAs!Episode Brought to You By MO Pros The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals Visit UTM.io and tell them the Ops Cast team sent you. Join us at MOps-Apalooza: https://mopsapalooza.com/Save 10% with code opscast10Support the show

#273 Leadership | Matt is joined by Rachel Weeks, a veteran B2B marketing leader with over 20 years of experience guiding companies through acquisitions, layoffs, and tech disruption. Rachel has led both corporate and field marketing teams and is passionate about recognition-driven team cultures that retain and empower top talent.Matt and Rachel cover:How to build a recognition strategy that actually improves retention (without needing a big budget or fancy platform)Why employee motivation dips during times of stress, layoffs, or AI disruption and what great leaders do differentlyThe role of marketing in internal culture: from branding the program to building peer-driven engagementWhether you're managing a small team or leading an entire department, this episode is packed with practical insights to help you build a culture where marketers feel valued, motivated, and ready to stay.Timestamps(00:00) - – Intro (03:48) - – Rachel's background and leadership lens (06:18) - – What actually makes a recognition program work (08:48) - – How marketing supports internal culture building (11:48) - – Recognition during org changes, stress, and funding rounds (14:48) - – The impact of AI on morale and motivation (18:18) - – What happens when recognition disappears (20:18) - – The “10 minutes by Friday” habit (22:48) - – Easy, no-budget ways to recognize team members (25:48) - – Performance-driven vs. values-driven recognition (30:53) - – Monetary vs. non-monetary rewards (and what people really want) (34:23) - – Recognition vs. pay raises: what the data says (38:23) - – Why people leave even when they're paid well (42:23) - – How to ask for (and give) better feedback (47:23) - – Using AI to create space for strategic work (54:23) - – Final thoughts on leadership, retention, and culture Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

In this episode, we're joined by Sander van Gelderen, CMO at Effectory, an employee listening solution platform helping organizations measure and improve engagement, enablement, and productivity at scale, serving 700+ recurring customers across the Benelux, DACH, and now the Nordics. We spoke with Sander about how Effectory transformed from a project-based consultancy into a recurring revenue SaaS business and how his team is reshaping their go-to-market motion through Account-Based Experience (ABX). The goal? Closing the gap between marketing and sales, reducing waste, and targeting only the accounts truly in-market. Here are some of the key questions we address: What is ABX and how does it differ from ABM in practice? How do you unify marketing and sales targeting to remove friction? What were the warning signs that the traditional MQL model wasn't working? How do you implement ABX without losing velocity or your team's trust? What process and tech changes are required to make ABX work? How should marketing compensation evolve in an ABX world? What are the real trade-offs and pitfalls no one talks about?

#272 Presentation Skills | Matt is joined by Vincent Pierri, a speaking coach who helps executives and marketers craft compelling, high-stakes talks. With a background as a pastor and public communicator, Vincent has developed a repeatable framework that helps B2B marketers improve how they show up in front of a room, whether it's a conference keynote, a boardroom pitch, or a weekly team update.Matt and Vincent cover:The 4-part framework behind talks that stick: Tension, Trust, Teaching, TakeawayHow to pick the right topic for your talk (and avoid cramming in too much)Why authenticity and simplicity matter more than slide design, and how to keep your delivery grounded and effectiveWhether you're prepping for Inbound, Exit Five's Drive, or just your next big internal presentation, this episode will help you nail the structure and mindset behind a talk that resonates.Timestamps(00:00) - - Intro (02:58) - - Vincent's unusual path to speaking coach (06:48) - - Why marketers need this framework (not just keynote speakers) (09:28) - - The first step: pick one real person you want to help (12:38) - - How to narrow your talk down from too many ideas (15:48) - - The 4-part structure: Tension, Trust, Teaching, Takeaway (18:38) - - Why your talk should start with a problem (not your points) (20:13) - - How to build trust by showing vulnerability (23:18) - - The 3 Cs: Catchy one-liner, Creative analogy, Concrete example (30:23) - - How to make your points memorable (and not Googleable) (33:28) - - Why authenticity beats sounding “smart” (35:38) - - What a strong closing takeaway looks like (38:53) - - When (and how) to start practicing your delivery (40:08) - - Why you should build your talk before your deck (42:33) - - How many slides is too many? (46:23) - - Connecting without slides: lessons from the pulpit (48:38) - - Final advice for marketers prepping talks this fall Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

#271 GTM Engineering | In this episode, Dave is joined by John Short, CEO of Compound Growth Marketing, along with Cammy Keiler, Justin Johnson, and Dan Guenet. Together, they break down the rise of GTM engineering, what it is, how it differs from RevOps, and why B2B teams are investing in it.Dave and the crew cover:The core difference between RevOps and GTM engineering (and why the latter is more focused on building than just integrating)Real GTM engineering use cases, from AI-powered sales tools to mid-funnel campaigns that go way beyond ebooksHow GTM engineers are driving higher revenue per employee and why this role should be one of your first five marketing hiresWhether you're hiring or just GTM-curious, you'll leave this episode with a clear definition of the role, real-world examples, and tactical ways GTM engineers drive impact.Timestamps(00:00) - – Intro (03:33) - – Why this topic resonated with 1,200+ registrants (05:48) - – What even is **GTM engineering? (08:03) - – GTM engineering vs. RevOps vs. Marketing Ops (11:18) - – How AI is driving this role forward (14:28) - – Real examples: ABM campaigns, mid-funnel tools, sales call analysis (19:38) - – Tools GTM engineers are using today (Clay, Unify, GPTs) (23:03) - – Role of GTM engineering in revenue per employee (27:18) - – How GTM engineers enable sales + reduce headcount (31:33) - – What Dan actually does all day as a GTM engineer (36:23) - – Custom GPTs for sales and marketing teams (39:38) - – What MCP servers are (and why they matter) (44:08) - – Claude, Gamma, and AI-powered content systems (46:53) - – Why this isn't just PLG (or ABM, or RevOps) (50:43) - – When to hire a GTM engineer (53:23) - – Big feelings about the role (and why they exist) (55:33) - – Closing thoughts + what to take away Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

#270 Strategy | Dave is joined by Holly Xiao, Head of B2B Marketing at HeyGen, an AI video generation platform that helps teams produce personalized, high-quality content, fast. Holly has led marketing at high-growth startups and now runs the enterprise GTM motion at HeyGen, where she blends strategy, creative execution, and AI-powered workflows to reach modern B2B buyers.Dave and Holly cover:The 4 channels her lean team is betting on to drive enterprise pipeline (and what's not working anymore)How B2B marketers are using AI video for event marketing, sales enablement, onboarding, and beyondWhy SEO is falling short and how HeyGen is shifting focus to webinars, events, and YouTube insteadIf you're figuring out how to use AI in your marketing or just trying to do more with less, this one's full of practical ideas to help you think differently about team structure, channels, and strategy.Timestamps(00:00) - – Intro (03:48) - – Holly's nonlinear path to marketing (06:48) - – Getting started in marketing ops (08:48) - – Why she joined an AI startup (10:48) - – How HeyGen's marketing org works (13:48) - – PLG vs SLG: Key differences (15:48) - – The 4 channels driving pipeline (17:48) - – What's working: Events + webinars (19:48) - – Booth strategy that stands out (24:23) - – Brand vs demand events (26:23) - – Building community and user events (27:53) - – SEO is declining. Now what? (30:23) - – Running marketing in 2-month sprints (33:23) - – Aligning product and marketing cadence (35:23) - – Her daily AI tools (36:53) - – ChatGPT vs Gemini workflows (38:23) - – Real AI video use cases (40:23) - – Personalized event promos with avatars (41:23) - – Support, training, and onboarding videos (42:23) - – Fortune telling and music videos?! (43:23) - – Why AI won't replace marketers Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

#269 AI Search & SEO | In this episode, Dave is joined by Andrei Țiț, Head of Product Marketing at Ahrefs, a leading SEO tool trusted by marketers around the world. Andrei has been on the front lines of how AI is reshaping search and what that means for marketers trying to stay visible in an AI-first world.Dave and Andrei cover:Why branded search volume is now a top indicator of visibility in AI-generated results (and how to grow it)The new playbook for SEO in 2025, including what metrics to track beyond traffic and backlinksActionable tactics to get your brand mentioned by AI search tools like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Google's AI OverviewsWhether you're a marketing leader or an SEO newbie, this episode will help you rethink your approach to content, attribution, and brand in the AI era.Timestamps(00:00) - – Intro (02:48) - – Why this was Exit Five's most-registered webinar ever (05:08) - – Meet Andrei from Ahrefs (06:48) - – Is SEO dead? Not quite, but it's harder than ever (08:28) - – AI traffic is growing fast (63% of sites already see it) (09:18) - – Why brand is your best SEO defense (11:48) - – How Google measures brand impact (keywords, mentions, clicks) (14:48) - – Calculating content ROI with traffic value (17:18) - – Why branded search volume predicts AI visibility (21:18) - – How to track brand mentions in ChatGPT, Perplexity & AI Overviews (24:18) - – AI traffic = fewer clicks, better leads (29:23) - – How to improve your visibility in AI-generated answers (36:23) - – Why backlinks matter less and PR matters more (43:23) - – New rules for writing content LLMs can surface (52:23) - – Final takeaways: metrics to watch and content to prioritize Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Walnut.Why are we pouring all this effort into marketing just to push buyers to a “request a demo” or “contact sales” button?Come on, today's buyers don't want to talk to sales right away. They want to explore your product themselves, see how it works, and understand its value before booking a meeting.That's where Walnut comes in.Walnut empowers marketers and GTM teams to create interactive, self-guided product experiences in minutes. Embed these experiences on your site, in emails, or anywhere in your funnel to let buyers engage on their terms, from awareness to close and beyond. That's the beauty of Walnut - you're getting a platform that your sales and CS colleagues can use to showcase the product too.And the best part? You get real intent data—see which features prospects love, where they drop off, and what's actually driving pipeline. Demo Qualified Leads are the new MQL.Over 500 companies, like Adobe and NetApp, use Walnut to drive 2-3x higher website conversion rates and 7 figures in pipeline on a yearly basis. So do you want to drive more leads, shorten sales cycles, and actually show your product instead of hiding it behind another typical B2B CTA? Go check out Walnut.io. And if you tell them Dave from Exit 5 sent you, they'll build out your first demo for free!

In this episode, Brett Hovanec, founder of On the Fly Ops, breaks down the most overlooked (and dangerous) flaws in go-to-market operations - from fuzzy MQL definitions to broken lead handoffs and churn-blind CS processes.

Why MQLs Are Broken (And What to Measure Instead)B2B marketers are under pressure to generate pipeline. But the truth is, most of us are stuck operating inside a broken GTM system that was never built for how buyers actually buy.In this episode, we're joined by Steve Patti — 7x CMO, 3x sales leader, and creator of the Brand Demand Expand framework — alongside Adem Manderovic, co-founder of CRO School and architect of Closed Circuit Selling.Together, we unpack why the MQL became marketing's biggest mistake, how misaligned incentives broke sales and marketing, and how to rebuild your go-to-market so it's actually commercially viable.Steve shares real stories — including how he used account intelligence to guide $200M in CapEx — and outlines the system he used to align sales, marketing, and product around real buyer needs.Tune in and learn:+ Why MQLs are based on “fantasy intent” — and what to track instead+ How to replace lead gen with real account intelligence+ What sales, marketing, and CS need to align on to win deals (and renew them)If you're a B2B marketer frustrated with misaligned GTM motions, noisy Martech promises, and the pressure to deliver pipeline from people not ready to buy — this episode is a must-watch.-----------------------------------------------------

Stephanie Moyal is the co-founder of Troop, a functional mushroom brand transforming wellness routines through approachable, science-backed gummies. Built at the intersection of personal healing and product innovation, Troop is helping redefine how consumers experience the benefits of mushrooms, one gummy at a time.After exploring multiple career paths and feeling unfulfilled, Stephanie came across a book on mushrooms that sparked a complete shift in direction. What started as a personal fascination with neuroplasticity and brain health quickly evolved into a product mission grounded in education, quality, and access. At Troop, Stephanie leads everything from product development to brand storytelling, helping bridge the gap between skepticism and belief in a growing wellness category.Though she entered CPG without a traditional background, Stephanie brings a founder's resilience and clarity to each challenge, navigating go-to-market tradeoffs, scaling digital alongside strategic wholesale, and building emotional alignment with customers and cofounders alike.Whether discussing how Troop approached product sampling and what didn't work, why the mushroom industry is just getting started, or how therapy strengthened her cofounder partnership, Stephanie offers a candid and insightful perspective on building a brand with both purpose and endurance.In This Conversation We Discuss:[00:39] Intro[00:54] Turning personal curiosity into a company[03:43] Brainstorming product formats in the kitchen[04:19] Navigating the nightmare of early production[06:23] Finding backup production in a crisis[08:02] Pivoting from tasting to paid acquisition[09:31] Expanding across DTC, Amazon, and retail[11:19] Episode Sponsors: Electric Eye, Reach & Zamp[14:38] Focusing efforts instead of chasing channels[16:28] Looping back to what worked all along[18:27] Writing down ideas to filter later[21:08] Bringing on experts to avoid missteps[22:32] Growing stronger through personal challengesResources:Subscribe to Honest Ecommerce on YoutubePremium daily mushroom supplements trytroop.com/Follow Stephanie Moyal linkedin.com/in/stephanie-moyal-95a4bb60Schedule an intro call with one of our experts electriceye.io/connectLevel up your global sales withreach.com/honest  Fully managed sales tax solution for Ecommerce brands zamp.com/honestIf you're enjoying the show, we'd love it if you left Honest Ecommerce a review on Apple Podcasts. It makes a huge impact on the success of the podcast, and we love reading every one of your reviews!

ABM programs often fail to deliver revenue results. Nadia Davis, VP of Marketing at CaliberMind, shares her expertise in transforming account-based marketing strategies into effective revenue generators. She breaks down the five most critical three-letter acronyms for B2B marketers today—ABM, CRM, MQA, MQL, and CAC—while explaining how to build holistic omni-channel ABM frameworks that contribute meaningfully to sales pipelines.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

ABM programs often fail to deliver revenue results. Nadia Davis, VP of Marketing at CaliberMind, shares her expertise in transforming account-based marketing strategies into effective revenue generators. She breaks down the five most critical three-letter acronyms for B2B marketers today—ABM, CRM, MQA, MQL, and CAC—while explaining how to build holistic omni-channel ABM frameworks that contribute meaningfully to sales pipelines.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on GTM Live, Carolyn sits down with Nick Flamini, host of the Sales Architecture Podcast, to explore the real reasons most go-to-market teams are still struggling—despite all the headcount, tools, and budget. They dig into the myth of “more BDRs = more pipeline,” and why most organizations are missing the data, architecture, and cross-functional alignment required to scale efficiently.Carolyn explains why “go-to-market bloat” is a symptom of deeper system issues, not bad people. She shares how Passetto is helping companies rethink how they connect marketing, sales, finance, and RevOps through a unified GTM data layer. Nick challenges the hype around AI in outbound, and the two unpack why trust, process, and measurement (not volume) are the levers that matter most.If you've ever questioned whether your CAC is actually sustainable, or felt stuck trying to prove marketing's impact, this episode is your blueprint.Key topics in this episode:Why most CRM data is unusable, and what to do about itThe epidemic of go-to-market bloat and over-hiringHow AI is flooding outbound and eroding trustWhy finance must own more of GTM efficiencyThe trap of MQL targets and performance by teamWhat it takes to build a real full-funnel revenue factoryThis episode is powered by ⁠Passetto⁠. We help high-growth and equity-backed companies turn GTM data into better decisions, faster. We unify your GTM and financial data, identify your growth levers, and help you scale. Part SaaS, part advisory. Visit ⁠passetto.com

"If done right, AI will actually make us more human. It handles the busy work and surfaces real-time insights—so GTM teams can focus on what really drives revenue: building relationships, solving real problems, and creating long-term customer value." That's a quote from Roderick Jefferson and a sneak peek at today's episode.Hi there, I'm Kerry Curran—Revenue Growth Consultant, Industry Analyst, and host of Revenue Boost, A Marketing Podcast. In every episode, I sit down with top experts to bring you actionable strategies that deliver real results. So if you're serious about business growth, find us in your favorite podcast directory, hit subscribe, and start outpacing your competition today.In this episode, titled AI + EQ + GTM: The New Growth Equation for B2B Leaders, I sit down with keynote speaker, author, and enablement powerhouse Roderick Jefferson to unpack the modern formula for revenue growth: AI + EQ + GTM.We explore why traditional sales enablement isn't enough in today's landscape—and how real go-to-market success requires alignment across marketing, sales, and customer success, powered by emotional intelligence and smart technology integration.Whether you're a CRO, CMO, or GTM leader looking to scale smarter, this episode is packed with real-world insights and actionable strategies to align your teams and drive sustainable growth.Stick around until the end, where Roderick shares expert tips for building your own AI-powered revenue engine.If you're serious about long-term growth, it's time to get serious about AI, EQ, and GTM. Let's go.Kerry Curran, RBMA (00:01)Welcome, Roderick. Please introduce yourself and share your background and expertise.Roderick Jefferson (00:06)Hey, Kerry. First of all, thanks so much for having me on. I'm really excited—I've been looking forward to this one all day. So thanks again. I'm Roderick Jefferson, CEO of Roderick Jefferson & Associates. We're a fractional enablement company, and we focus on helping small to mid-sized businesses—typically in the $10M to $100M range—that need help with onboarding, ongoing education, and coaching.I'm also a keynote speaker and an author. I actually started my career in sales at AT&T years ago. I was a BDR, did well, got promoted to AE, made President's Club a couple of times. Then I was offered a sales leadership role—and I turned it down. I know they thought I was crazy, but there were two reasons: first, I realized I loved the process of selling more than just closing big deals. And second, oddly enough, I wasn't coin-operated. I did it because I loved it—it gave me a chance to interact with people and have conversations like this one.Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:16)I love that—and I love your background. As Roderick mentioned, he does a lot of keynote speaking, and that's actually where I met him. He was a keynote speaker at B2BMX West in Scottsdale last month. I also have one of your books here that I've been diving into. I can't believe how fast this year is flying—it's already the first day of spring!Roderick Jefferson (01:33)Thank you so much. Wow, that was just last month? It feels like last week. Where is the time going?Kerry Curran, RBMA (01:45)I appreciate your experience for so many reasons. One is that—like we talked about before the show—my dad was in sales at AT&T for over 20 years. It paid for my entire education. So we were comparing notes on that era of innovation and what we learned back then.Roderick Jefferson (02:02)Thank you, AT&T!Kerry Curran, RBMA (02:13)So much of what you talked about on stage and wrote about in your book is near and dear to my heart. My background is in building integrated marketing-to-sales infrastructure and strengthening it to drive revenue growth. I'm excited to hear more about what you're seeing and hearing. You talk to so many brands and marketers—what's hot right now? What's the buzz? What do we need to know?Roderick Jefferson (02:44)A couple of things. The obvious one is AI—but I'll add something: it's not just AI, it's AI plus EQ plus IQ. Without that combination, you won't be successful.The other big theme is the same old problem we've always had: Why is there such a disconnect between sales and marketing? As an enablement guy, it pains me. I spent 30 years in corporate trying to figure that out. I think we're getting closer to alignment—thank you, AI, for finally stepping in and being smarter than all of us! But we've still got a long way to go.Part of the issue is we're still making decisions in silos. That's why I've become a champion of moving away from just "sales enablement."Yes, I know I wrote the book on sales enablement—but I don't think that's the focus anymore. In hindsight, “sales enablement” is too myopic. It's really about go-to-market. How do we bring HR, marketing, product marketing, engineering, sales, and enablement all to the same table to talk about the entire buyer's journey?Instead of focusing on our internal sales process and trying to shoehorn prospects into it, we should be asking: How do they buy? Who buys? Are there buying committees? How many people are involved? And yes, ICP matters—but that's just the tip of the iceberg. It goes much deeper.Kerry Curran, RBMA (04:44)Yes, absolutely. And going back to why you loved your early sales roles—it was about helping people. That's how I've always approached marketing too: what are their business challenges, and what can I offer to solve them? In your keynote, you said, “I want sales to stop selling and start helping.” But that's not possible without partnering with marketing to learn and message around the outcomes we drive and the pain points we solve.Roderick Jefferson (05:22)Exactly. Let's unpack that. First, about helping vs. selling—that's why we have spam filters now. Nobody wants to be sold to. That's also why people avoid car lots—because you know what's coming: they'll talk at you, try to upsell you, and push you into something you don't need or want. Then you have buyer's remorse.Now apply that to corporate and entrepreneurship. If you're doing all the talking in sales, something's wrong. Too many people ask questions just to move the deal forward instead of being genuinely inquisitive.Let's take it further. If marketing is working in a silo—building messaging and positioning—and they don't bring in sales, then guess what? Sales won't use it. Newsflash, right? And second, it's only going to reflect marketing's perspective. But if you bring both teams together and say, “Hey, what are the top three to five things you're hearing from prospects over and over?”—then you can work collaboratively and cohesively to solve those.The third piece is: let's stop trying to manufacture pain. Not every prospect is in pain. Sometimes the goal is to increase efficiency or productivity. If there is pain, you get to play doctor for a moment. And by that, I mean: do they need an Advil, a Vicodin, a Percocet, or an extraction? Do you need to stop the bleeding right now? You only figure that out by getting sales, marketing, product, and even HR at the same table.Kerry Curran, RBMA (07:34)Yes, absolutely. I love the analogy of different levels of pain solutions because you're right—sometimes it's not pain, it's about helping the customer be more efficient, reduce costs, or drive revenue. I've used the doctor analogy before too: you assess the situation and then customize the solution based on where it “hurts” the most. One of the ongoing challenges, though, is that sales and marketing still aren't fully aligned. Why do you think that's been such a persistent issue, and where do you see it heading?Roderick Jefferson (08:14)Because sales speaks French and marketing speaks German. They're close enough that they can kind of understand each other—like ordering a beer or finding a bathroom—but not enough for a meaningful conversation.The core issue is that they're not talking—they're presenting to each other. They're pitching ideas instead of having a dialogue. Marketing says, “Here's what the pitch should look like,” and sales replies, “When's the last time you actually talked to a customer?”They also get stuck in “I think” and “I feel,” and I always tell both groups—those are the two things you cannot say in a joint meeting. No one cares what you think or feel. Instead, say: “Here's what I've seen work,” or “Here's what I've heard from prospects and customers.” That way, the conversation is rooted in data and real-world insight, not opinion or emotion.You might say, “Hey, when we get to slide six in the deck, things get fuzzy and deals stall.” That's something marketing can fix. Or you go to product and say, “I've talked to 10 prospects, and eight of them asked for this feature. Can we move it up in the roadmap?”Or go back to sales and say, “Only 28% of the team is hitting quota because they're struggling with discovery and objection handling.” So enablement and marketing can partner to create role plays, messaging guides, or accreditations. It sounds utopian, but I've actually done this six times over 30 years—it is possible.It's not because I'm the smartest guy in the room—it's because when sales and marketing align around shared definitions and shared goals, real change happens. Go back to MQLs and SQLs. One team says, “We gave you all these leads,” and the other says, “Yeah, but they all sucked.” Then you realize: you haven't even agreed on what a lead is.As a fractional enablement leader, that's the first question I ask: “Can you both define what an MQL and SQL mean to you?” Nine times out of ten, they realize they aren't aligned at all. That's where real progress starts.Once you fix communication, the next phase is collaboration. And what comes out of collaboration is the big one: accountability. That's the word nobody likes—but it's what gets results. You're holding each other to timelines, deliverables, and follow-through.The final phase is orchestration. That's what enablement really does—we connect communication, collaboration, and accountability across the entire go-to-market team so everyone has a voice and a vote.Kerry Curran, RBMA (13:16)You're so smart, and you bring up so many great points—especially around MQLs, SQLs, and the lack of collaboration. There's no unified North Star. Marketing may be focused on MQLs, but those criteria don't always match what moves an MQL to an SQL.There's also no feedback loop. I've seen teams where sales and marketing didn't even talk to each other—but they still complained about each other! I was brought in to help, and I said, “You're adults. It's time to talk to one another.” And you'd think that would be obvious.What I love is that we're starting to see the outdated framework of MQLs as a KPI begin to fade. As you said, it's about identifying a shared goal that everyone can be accountable to. We need to all be paddling in the same direction.Roderick Jefferson (14:16)Exactly. I wouldn't say we're all rowing yet, but we've definitely got our hands in the water, and we're starting to go in the same direction. You can see that North Star flickering out there.And I give big kudos to AI for helping with that. In some ways, it reminds me of social media. Would you agree that social media initially made us less social?Kerry Curran, RBMA (14:27)Yes, totally agree. We can see the North Star.Roderick Jefferson (14:57)Now I'm going to flip that idea on its head: if done right, I believe AI will actually make us more human—and drive more meaningful conversations. I know that sounds crazy, but I have six ways AI can help us do that.First, let's go back to streamlining lead scoring. If we use AI to prioritize leads based on their likelihood to convert, sales can focus efforts on the most promising opportunities. Once we align on those criteria, volume and quality both improve. With confidence comes competence—and vice versa.Second is automating task management. Whether it's data entry, appointment scheduling, or follow-up emails, those repetitive tasks eat up sales time. Less than 30% of a rep's time is spent actually selling. If we offload that admin work, reps can focus on high-value activities—like building relationships, doing discovery, and closing deals.Kerry Curran, RBMA (15:59)Yes! And pre-call planning. Having the time to prepare properly makes a huge difference.Roderick Jefferson (16:19)Exactly. Third is real-time analytics. If marketing and ops can provide sales reps with real-time insights—like funnel data, deal velocity, or content performance—we can start making decisions based on data, not assumptions or feelings.The fourth area is personalized sales coaching. I talk to a lot of leaders, and I'll make a bold statement: most sales leaders don't know how to coach. They either use outdated methods or try to “peanut butter” their advice across the team.But what if we could use AI to analyze calls, emails, and meetings—then provide coaching based on each rep's strengths and weaknesses? Sales leaders could shift from managing to leading.Kerry Curran, RBMA (17:55)Yes, I love that. It would completely elevate team performance.Roderick Jefferson (18:11)Exactly. Fifth is increasing efficiency in the sales process. AI can create proposals, contracts, and other documents, which frees up time for reps to focus on helping—not chasing paperwork. And by streamlining the process, we can qualify faster and avoid wasting time on poor-fit deals.Kerry Curran, RBMA (18:58)Right, and they can focus on the deals that are actually likely to move forward.Roderick Jefferson (19:09)Exactly. And sixth—and most overlooked—is customer success. That's often left out of GTM conversations, but it's critical. We can use AI-powered chatbots and virtual assistants to handle basic inquiries. That frees up CSMs to focus on more strategic tasks like renewals, cross-sell, and upsell.Let's be honest—most CSMs were trained for renewals, not selling. But cross-sell and upsell aren't really selling—they're reselling to warm, happy customers. The better trained and equipped CSMs are, the better your customer retention and growth.Because let's face it—we've all seen it: 90 days before renewal, suddenly a CSM becomes your best friend. Where were they for the last two years? If we get ahead of that and connect all the dots—sales, marketing, CS, and product—guess who wins?The prospect.The customer.The company—because revenue goes up.The employee—because bonuses happen, spiffs get paid, and KPIs are hit.But most importantly, we build customers for life. And that has to start from the very beginning, not just when the CSM steps in at the end.Kerry Curran, RBMA (20:47)Yes, this is so smart. I love that you brought customer success into the conversation. One of the things I love about go-to-market strategy is that it includes lifetime value—upsell and renewal are a critical part of the revenue journey.In my past roles, I've seen teams say, “Well, that's just client services—they don't know how to sell.” But to your point, if we coach them, equip them, and make them comfortable, it can go a long way.Roderick Jefferson (21:34)Absolutely. They become the lifeblood of your business. Yes, you need net-new revenue, but if sales builds this big, beautiful house on the front end and then customers just walk out the back door—what's the point?And I won't even get into the stats—you know them—about how much more expensive it is to acquire a new customer versus retaining one. The key is being human and actually helping.Kerry Curran, RBMA (21:46)Exactly. I love that. It leads perfectly into my next question—because one of the core components of your strategy and presentation was the importance of EQ, or emotional intelligence. Can you talk about why that's so critical?Roderick Jefferson (22:19)Yeah. It really comes down to this: AI can provide content—tons of it, endlessly. It can give you all the data and information in the world. But it still requires a human to provide context. For now, at least. I'm not saying it'll be that way forever, but for now, context is everything.I love analogies, so I'll give you one: it's like making gumbo. You sprinkle in some seasoning here, some spice there. In this case, AI provides the content. Then the human provides the interpretation—context. That's understanding how to use that generated content to reach the right person or company, at the right time, with the right message, in the right tone.What you get is a balanced, powerful approach: IQ + EQ + AI. That's what leads to truly optimal outcomes—if you do it right.Kerry Curran, RBMA (23:19)Yes! I love that. And I love every stage of your process, Roderick—it's so valuable. I know your clients are lucky to work with you.For people listening and thinking, “Yes, I need this,” how do they get started? What's the baseline readiness? How do they begin integrating sales and marketing more effectively—and leveraging AI?Roderick Jefferson (23:34)Thank you so much for that. It really starts with a conversation. Reach out—LinkedIn, social media, my website. And from there, we talk. We get to the core questions: Where are you today? Where have you been? Where are you trying to go? And most importantly: What does success look like?And not just, “What does success look like?” but, “Who is success for?”Then we move into an assessment. I want to talk to every part of the go-to-market team. Because not only do we have French and German—we've also got Dutch, Spanish, and every other language. My job is to become the translator—not just of language, but of dialects and context.“This is what they said, but here's what they meant. And this is what they meant, but here's what they actually need.”Then we dig into what's really going on. Most clients have a sense of what's “broken.” I'm not just looking for the broken parts—I'm looking at what you've already tried. What worked? What didn't? Why or why not?I basically become a persistent four-year-old asking, “Why? But why? But why?” And yes, it gets frustrating—but it's the only way to build a unified GTM team with a shared North Star.Kerry Curran, RBMA (25:32)Yes, I love that. And just to add—sometimes something didn't work not because it was a bad strategy, but because it was evaluated with the wrong KPI or misunderstood entirely.Like a top-of-funnel strategy did work—but the team expected it to generate leads that same month. It takes time. So much of this comes down to digging into the root of the issue, and I love your approach.Roderick Jefferson (26:10)Exactly. And it's also about understanding that every GTM function has different KPIs.If I'm talking to sales, I'm asking about average deal size, quota attainment, deal velocity, win rate, pipeline generation. If I'm talking to sales engineering, they care about number of demos per deal, wins and losses, and number of POCs. Customer success? They care about adoption, churn, CSAT, NPS, lifetime value.My job is to set the North Star and speak in their language—not in “enablement-ese.” Sometimes that means speaking in sales terms, sometimes marketing terms. And I always say, “Assume I know nothing about your job. Spell out your acronyms. Define your terms.”Because over 30 years, I've learned: the same acronym can mean 12 different things at 12 different companies.The goal is to get away from confusion and start finding commonality. When you break down the silos and the masks, you realize we're all working toward the same thing: new, long-term, happy customers for life.Kerry Curran, RBMA (27:55)Yes—thank you, Roderick. I love this. So, how can people find you?Roderick Jefferson (28:00)Funny—I always say if you can't find me on social media, you're not trying to find me.You can reach me at roderickjefferson.com, and you can find my book, Sales Enablement 3.0: The Blueprint to Sales Enablement Excellence and the upcoming Sales 3.0 companion workbook there as well.I'm on LinkedIn as Roderick Jefferson, Instagram and Threads at @roderick_j_associates, YouTube at Roderick Jefferson, and on BlueSky as @voiceofrod.Kerry Curran, RBMA (28:33)Excellent. I'll make sure to include all of that in the show notes—I'm sure this episode will have your phone ringing!Thank you so much, Roderick. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us. This was valuable for me, and I'm sure for the audience as well.Roderick Jefferson (28:40)Ring-a-ling—bring it on! Let's dance. Thank you again. This was an absolute honor, and I'm glad we got the chance to reconnect, Kerry.Kerry Curran, RBMA (28:59)For sure. Thank you—you too.Roderick Jefferson (29:01)Take care, all.Thanks for tuning in. If you're struggling with flat or slowing revenue growth, you're not alone. That's why Revenue Boost: A Marketing Podcast brings you expert insights, actionable strategies, and real-world success stories to help you scale faster.If you're serious about growth, search for us in your favorite podcast directory. Hit follow or subscribe, and leave a five-star rating—it helps us keep the game-changing content coming.New episodes drop regularly. Don't let your revenue growth strategy fall behind. We'll see you soon!

Everyone's analyzing win rates, but too few teams are asking the harder question: how did that opportunity even begin?This week on GTM Live, Trevor and Carolyn break down the most overlooked stage in go-to-market: what happens before a lead becomes a lead. They unpack why early-funnel signals (the ones that come before forms, meetings, or MQL scores) are where your growth strategy is made or broken.They explain why it's not enough to measure performance after the fact, and how traditional attribution misses the hidden work happening in the earliest phases of pipeline creation. Carolyn explains how early signal data is shaping a new standard for pipeline visibility, and Trevor shows how to connect that data to real decisions: budget, headcount, channels, and more.If your GTM reporting starts at the opportunity stage, you're already behind.Key topics in this episode:Why traditional approaches to attribution often tells a false storyWhy marketing and sales leaders need to rethink “first touch” and “last touch” measurementWhat happens when early-stage activity is left out of pipeline ROI modelsHow to expose the invisible work that actually drives revenueThe GTM gaps that surface when ops teams aren't tracking signalsThe early indicators that help you scale GTM programs with confidenceThis episode is powered by Passetto. We help high-growth and equity-backed companies turn GTM data into better decisions, faster. We unify your GTM and financial data, identify your growth levers, and help you scale. Part SaaS, part advisory. Visit passetto.com

This episode features an interview with Jenny Force, VP of Global Demand Generation at Meltwater, a company with a suite of solutions that spans media, social, consumer, and sales intelligence. Jenny discusses her experience launching the company's first big summit, as well as the work they have done to automate their inbound process to maximize each MQL.Key Takeaways:Launching a new big initiative and then proving ROI to the executive team requires careful positioning and careful measurement against KPIs.Automating the process for inbound leads through tech removes manual human intervention and puts the sellers into positions where they can do their job at a more impactful level.Imbuing campaigns with humor, while a little scary, can cause a big lift in engagement.Quote: We've been really investing and not just spending more money to get more MQLs. It's making, not to sound cliche, but every MQL count. It's about automating the process. Here at Meltwater, we're a 20-year-old company, we're very sales-centric and there's a lot of energy that used to be put behind outbound. So, it was changing the narrative around inbound. Until we totally make this change as a business where everyone in the business is shouting to get an inbound lead and are super excited about it, it's how can I get every single lead responded to in under an hour without any delays? And it's been a bit of a journey to put the right tech in place to automate those processes that we can, take out that manual human intervention and then put the sellers into the business so they can actually sell. So, I've got some tech around instant meeting scheduling, self-serve demos, a conversational email that we've put in. And honestly, I feel like that has already had such an impact on our conversion rates. I wouldn't get rid of it.Episode Timestamps: *(06:03) The Trust Tree: Improving inbound efficiency and increasing deal velocity*(14:32) The Playbook: Launching a summit and investing in automation *(45:53) The Dust Up: Changing inbound KPIs to get a seat at the table *(49:30) Quick Hits: Jenny's quick hitsSponsor:Pipeline Visionaries is brought to you by Qualified.com. Qualified helps you turn your website into a pipeline generation machine with PipelineAI. Engage and convert your most valuable website visitors with live chat, chatbots, meeting scheduling, intent data, and Piper, your AI SDR. Visit Qualified.com to learn more.Links:Connect with Ian on LinkedInConnect with Jenny on LinkedInLearn more about MeltwaterLearn more about Caspian Studios

In this Starr-Led solo episode of Revenue Rehab, Brandi Starr takes a But Also approach to the frequently heard declaration that MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads) are dead. While acknowledging common frustrations around the inefficacy of current MQL definitions, she contends that the real problem lies in the lack of clarity and alignment between sales and marketing on what constitutes an MQL. Brandi outlines a collaborative approach to redefining MQLs that can harmonize sales and marketing teams and enhance pipeline quality. This episode is essential for CMOs and CROs who seek to improve lead processing and bolster revenue outcomes by fostering better interdepartmental cooperation.  Episode Type: Starr-Led   Brandi Starr cuts through industry noise with bold, unfiltered insights on revenue growth. These solo episodes challenge outdated advice, debunk myths, and break down industry reports to reveal what really drives results. Expect sharp commentary, data-backed analysis, and actionable strategies to refine your marketing and sales approach.  Bullet Points of Key Topics + Chapter Markers: Topic #1: Importance of Defining MQLs Clearly [02:15]  Brandy emphasizes that the term "Marketing Qualified Lead" (MQL) isn't the issue; rather, it's the lack of a clear, agreed-upon definition. Incorrect definitions lead to sales ignoring leads, causing friction between sales and marketing. She argues that an MQL should be an agreement between sales and marketing on when sales should engage.  Topic #2: Focus on Middle of the Funnel [23:29]  Brandy stresses that fixing the middle of the funnel is crucial for revenue growth. The middle of the funnel involves nurturing leads to reach the qualification that warrants sales involvement, thus impacting revenue. She points out that this stage can be vast and complex but is essential for orchestrating the buyer's journey effectively.  Topic #3: The Fallacy of Volume-Based MQL Metrics [25:31]  Brandy challenges the conventional approach of measuring success based on MQL volume. She argues that focusing on volume leads to misaligned incentives and poor-quality leads. Instead, she advises aligning goals with pipeline impact and improving the quality of leads, which leads to faster conversion, larger deal sizes, and enhanced collaboration between sales and marketing.  Why Should Revenue Leaders Stop Ignoring This Problem Right Now?  Because the MQL misunderstanding is sabotaging your sales-marketing synergy. Brandy argues that misaligned marketing qualified lead definitions cause sales to ignore leads, waste time, and crumble trust between departments. Ignoring this alignment crisis results in pipeline chaos, delayed deals, and missed revenue—addressing it is your fast lane to grow  What's the First Action Someone Should Take to Apply This Insight Today?  Brandi says: If you can't quickly pull up the documented definition of an MQL for your organization, you have a problem. Sit down with sales and draft that clear, agreed-upon definition now—that's your first step to aligning and driving better revenue results.  Takeaways  Brandi emphasizes the critical need for alignment between sales and marketing to improve lead quality and ultimately impact revenue. She challenges leaders to shift their mindset from focusing on MQL volume to ensuring MQLs are aligned with true buyer intent and sales interest. The next steps? Leaders should clarify what truly signals buyer readiness by having deep conversations with sales and making sure there is clear, agreed-upon qualification criteria. The core message—define when sales should engage effectively to speed up deals, increase win rates, and get sales and marketing on the same page.  Subscribe, listen, and rate/review Revenue Rehab Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts , Amazon Music, or iHeart Radio and find more episodes on our website RevenueRehab.live    

This week, marketing and revenue operations expert Simon Daniels joins Ian after a two-year break working with Forrester to discuss how we define the discipline of revenue operations, how this sits with sales operations and marketing operations, and how we should implement this function.  In this discussion, they cover: Revenue operations, marketing, sales, and customer success operations. The organizational structure for RevOps varies by business context. Collaboration between sales and marketing  The death of the MQL Understanding the buying group and metrics for revenue and pipeline health The key technology and data platforms The role of AI in the analysis of revenue operations. As always, we welcome your feedback. If you have a suggestion for a topic that is hot for you, please get in touch using the links below.   Enjoy! — The Links The people: Ian Truscott on LinkedIn and Bluesky Simon Daniels on LinkedIn As mentioned this week and some further reading that Simon recommends: Blowing in the wind - Why I'm sticking with Revenue Operations (even if the rest of the world is not!) - LinkedIn post by Simon Why the MQL model is failing B2B marketing and what to use instead - Mark Stouse on Martech.org regarding ditching MQLs Beyond MQLs: Unlocking Revenue Growth by Embracing Buying Groups - B2B Marketing webinar on moving beyond the MQL Meet the new martech stack: systems of context and systems of truth – Chief Marketing Technologist RevOps And AI: The Cobbler's Children Need Shoes, Too – Simon co-wrote this on tech for Rev Ops ​​What's Broken in GTM and How to Fix It - Simon's podcast Rockstar CMO: The Beat Newsletter that we send every Monday Rockstar CMO on the web, Twitter, and LinkedIn Previous episodes and all the show notes: Rockstar CMO FM. Track List: We'll be right back by Stienski & Mass Media on YouTube You can listen to this on all good podcast platforms, like Apple, Amazon and Spotify. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week Jeanette Belashov, of Anvilogic, joins the show to talk about smarter and more authentic cybersecurity marketing.George K and George A talk to Jeanette about: Why the lead gen MQL mindset is total BS and hurts both your strategy AND your buyers Using selling signals instead of vanity metrics to actually help your sales team connect with the right accounts at the right time about the right use case Why marketers MUST get their hands dirty with the product and spend time understanding the day-to-day challenges of practitioners Creating hybrid attribution frameworks that actually make sense for today's complex buyer journeysJeanette drops some serious science about how successful cybersecurity marketers need to immerse themselves in the community - from Reddit threads to conference conversations - to truly understand what matters to security teams.As the CISO said: "This has to be one of the most value-filled episodes I've ever been a part of... You could probably do an entire course based on the themes and ideas she brought up."Check out the full episode wherever you listen to podcasts!

Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!What if your marketing strategy could be supercharged by AI? Clemens Diemann, a leading AI growth consultant from Algomarketing, joins us to share his expertise on navigating the complex world of marketing operations. He brings to light the struggles marketers endure when relying on historical data and intuition, revealing how this pressure can lead to strategic decisions based more on hope than certainty. Clemens discusses the often daunting task of meeting ever-increasing targets and how running ad hoc campaigns without thorough analysis can strain marketing teams and lead to incomplete data-driven decisions.Clemens dives deep into the transformative role of predictive analytics and AI in marketing. He challenges traditional models like the MQL to SAIL to pipeline approach, which can flatten conversion rates when not integrated with a broader revenue operations strategy. By encouraging collaboration across teams and employing predictive analytics, marketing professionals can unlock significant improvements in campaign performance and sales funnels. Clemens illustrates this with a compelling case study from Cisco, showing how AI-driven insights can elevate sales team performance and foster better decision-making.Episode Brought to You By MO Pros The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals Find your next great hire in the MarketingOps.com community. Reach specific members seeking new opportunities by region, years of experience, platform experience, and more. Support the show

For years, marketers have debated the value of MQLs, with some calling them outdated and others advocating for their evolution. But what if the solution isn't to abandon MQLs altogether, but to reimagine how they're used?In this episode, Nadia Davis, Senior Director of Revenue Marketing and Operations at PayIt, shares her unique perspective on the role of MQLs in account-based marketing (ABM). Nadia highlights the operational challenges, change management strategies, and practical adjustments that can make MQLs a valuable signal without letting them take center stage. She also explains how flipping the MQL process can create stronger collaboration between marketing and sales teams.In this episode, you'll learn:Why MQLs get a bad rap and how to redefine their roleThe operational and change management challenges of ABMPractical ways to align sales and marketing for better outcomesJump into the conversation:(00:00) Introducing Nadia Davis(05:01) The controversy around MQLs in ABM(08:05) Flipping the traditional MQL process(11:50) Using MQLs as signals, not goals(14:08) Timing challenges with MQL engagement(15:40) Operational hurdles in ABM success(18:37) Refining ICPs and account lists(21:52) Change management in ABM adoption(27:05) Bridging offline and online marketing

►  A Wake-Up Call for Marketers & Founders! Book a call: https://www.breakingb2b.com/book-a-call 

In this episode of The Tech Leader's Playbook, Avetis Antaplyan interviews Hamlet Azarian, founder and CEO of Azarian Growth Agency. They discuss the importance of identifying gaps in business and surrounding oneself with the right talent. Hamlet shares his journey into growth marketing, emphasizing the significance of data-driven strategies and understanding ROI in marketing budgets. The conversation also covers B2B marketing strategies, the distinction between marketing qualified leads (MQL) and sales qualified leads (SQL), and the challenges of hiring in today's market. Finally, they explore how startups can build a growth engine to scale effectively. In this conversation, Avetis Antaplyan discusses the critical stages of startup growth, emphasizing the importance of building a scalable growth engine, navigating pivots, and understanding product-market fit. He explores the balance between marketing-led and product-led growth strategies, the transformative role of AI in marketing, and the necessity of experimentation in developing effective marketing strategies. Avetis also addresses the evolving landscape of SEO and the significance of thought leadership in establishing authority. Finally, he highlights the importance of delegation and surrounding oneself with the right talent to achieve business success. Takeaways Surrounding yourself with the right talent is crucial. A career transition can lead to discovering new passions. Data-driven marketing is essential for success. Every marketing dollar should be viewed as an investment. Expect varying timelines for marketing results based on strategies. Understanding MQL and SQL is vital for effective sales. Hiring challenges require a strategic approach. Automation and AI can enhance outreach efforts. Building authority through thought leadership is important. A predictable growth engine is key for startups. Customer discovery is essential for understanding real problems. Building a repeatable growth engine is crucial for scaling. Pivots can lead to significant success in startups. Product-led growth works best for self-serve businesses. AI tools are integral to modern marketing strategies. Experimentation is key to discovering effective marketing tactics. SEO will evolve, focusing more on personal expertise. Thought leadership enhances authority and drives business. Delegation allows founders to focus on their strengths. Surrounding yourself with the right talent is vital for growth. Chapters 00:00 Identifying Gaps and Building Teams 03:04 Hamlet Azarian's Journey to Growth Marketing 05:50 The Importance of Data-Driven Marketing 09:04 Understanding ROI and Marketing Budgets 11:51 B2B Marketing Strategies for Service Businesses 17:58 MQL vs SQL: Understanding Lead Qualification 21:11 The Challenges of Hiring and Recruitment 23:05 Scaling Startups: Building a Growth Engine 24:04 Building the First Growth Engine 25:28 Navigating Pivots and Product-Market Fit 27:52 Marketing vs. Product-Led Growth 31:08 The Role of AI in Growth Marketing 34:13 Experimentation in Marketing Strategies 37:30 The Future of SEO and Thought Leadership 40:50 The Importance of Delegation and Team Building Hamlet Azarian's Website: https://azariangrowthagency.com/ https://hamletazarian.com/ Hamlet Azarian's Social Media Links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamletazarian/ https://x.com/hamletazarian Resources and Links: https://www.hireclout.com https://www.podcast.hireclout.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/hirefasthireright

Ralph and Lauren tackle the challenges marketers and business owners face when managing lead generation and sales processes. They break down the critical differences between Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs) and Sales Qualified Leads (SQLs) and share actionable strategies for optimizing ad algorithms and leveraging CRM data effectively. The conversation highlights the power of transparency and alignment within teams and with agency partners to maximize ROI. With a focus on practical insights, they also explore how to use standard events in digital advertising to improve lead quality and drive better business outcomes.Chapters:00:00:00 - Kickoff: Welcome to an Unfiltered Dive Into Marketing Strategies00:01:00 - Listener Reviews: What You're Saying About the Show00:03:50 - Constructive Criticism: Turning Feedback Into Actionable Insights00:08:40 - MQL vs. SQL: Why Knowing the Difference Changes Everything00:18:05 - MPI Checklist Unpacked: The Simple Tool to Qualify Your Leads00:19:30 - Lead Qualification Secrets: How to Spot the Real Prospects00:20:45 - Custom Thank You Pages: The Game-Changer You're Overlooking00:22:08 - Campaign Optimization: Attracting the Customers You Actually Want00:28:43 - Standard Events Masterclass: Supercharging Your Ad Performance00:33:39 - Final Thoughts: Quick Wins and Next Steps to Level UpLINKS AND RESOURCES:Tier 11 on YouTubeGet Your Marketing Performance Indicators™ Checklist Now!Tier 11 JobsPerpetual Traffic on YouTubeTiereleven.comMongoose MediaPerpetual Traffic SurveyPerpetual Traffic WebsiteFollow Perpetual Traffic on TwitterConnect with Lauren on Instagram and Connect with Ralph on LinkedInThanks so much for joining us this week. Want to subscribe to Perpetual Traffic? Have some feedback you'd like to share? Connect with us on iTunes and leave us a review!Mentioned in this episode:AdCritter for Agencies

ACTIONABLE TAKEAWAYS: 80/20 Rule for Experimentation: Keep 80% of your team's work process-driven and reserve 20% for new, experimental ideas to avoid chaos. Track MQL to Reply Rates: Use the MQL to reply rate metric to gauge how well your messaging engages prospects. Key Metrics for Pipeline Meetings: Focus on leads by source, conversion rates, meeting-to-op conversions, and total pipeline in every pipeline meeting. Methodical Problem Solving: When top-of-funnel issues arise, fix one area at a time—start with accounts, then people, triggers, and finally messaging. SONNY'S PATH TO PRESIDENTS CLUB: Director of Global Sales Development @ Panopto Senior Manager, Global Sales Developnent @ Sift Sales Development Manager @ Sift Manager, Account Development Team @ Mesosphere RESOURCES DISCUSSED: Join our weekly newsletter Things you can steal

In the final part of our Resonance in Marketing Masterclass series, we explore the key strategies that help brands create unshakable brand loyalty. This episode breaks down how personalization, emotional connections, and strong communities are the cornerstones of marketing success in today's world. We'll explore:• How personalization creates deeper, more meaningful relationships with your customers.• The role of emotional engagement in building long-lasting loyalty and advocacy.• Why fostering and nurturing communities around your brand is the ultimate way to cultivate trust and drive growth.Through real-world examples, actionable insights, and practical takeaways, this episode is a must-listen for brands looking to build loyalty that stands the test of time. Whether you're a seasoned marketer or just starting out, you'll discover powerful strategies to connect with your audience on a deeper level and turn customers into lifelong advocates. Previous Episodes In This Masterclass Series:•  Listen To Resonance In Marketing Masterclass Part 1•  Listen To Resonance In Marketing Masterclass Part 2 Beyond The Episode Gems:• Grow Your Business Faster Using HubSpot's CRM Platform• Use The Same Recording Platform I Use For My Podcast, Try Riverside.fm For Free• Buy Troy's Book, Strategize Up That Is Referenced In This Episode: StrategizeUpBook.com• Discover All Podcasts On The HubSpot Podcast Network#####Support The Podcast & Connect With Troy: • Rate & Review iDigress: iDigress.fm/Reviews•  Follow Troy's LinkedIn @FindTroy• Need Growth Strategy, A Keynote Speaker, Or Want To Sponsor The Podcast? Go To FindTroy.com•  Follow Troy's Instagram @FindTroy•  Subscribe to Troy's YouTube Channel

In today's hyper-competitive landscape, it's not about how loud you are—it's about how deeply you resonate.In this episode, we explore building meaningful connections through relationship-driven marketing, focusing on:• Emotional connection > Grabbing attention.• Why trust, loyalty, and community advocacy matter more than one-time conversions.• The role of storytelling in creating authentic, long-lasting connections with your audience.• Empathy-driven marketing: understanding your customers' needs and emotions to foster brand loyalty.• Tapping into the power of personalized experiences to resonate on a deeper level.• How niche marketing and community-building create stronger advocacy than broad messaging.• How to evoke emotion and create lasting memories to resonate deeply.• Relationship-driven marketing tactics you can apply across social media, content, email, and more to engage meaningfully. Beyond The Episode Gems:• Grow Your Business Faster Using HubSpot's CRM Platform• Use The Same Recording Platform I Use For My Podcast, Try Riverside.fm For Free• Buy Troy's Book, Strategize Up That Is Referenced In This Episode: StrategizeUpBook.com• Discover All Podcasts On The HubSpot Podcast Network#####Support The Podcast & Connect With Troy: • Rate & Review iDigress: iDigress.fm/Reviews•  Follow Troy's LinkedIn @FindTroy• Need Growth Strategy, A Keynote Speaker, Or Want To Sponsor The Podcast? Go To FindTroy.com•  Follow Troy's Instagram @FindTroy•  Subscribe to Troy's YouTube Channel

In a world of endless noise, the brands that stand out are the ones that resonate, not the ones that shout.In this episode, we break down how resonance plays in marketing along with:•  Resonance vs Volume in marketing.•  Emotional connection > Simply Exposure.•  The Psychology of Resonance: tapping into customer emotions, needs, and values.•  Appealing to Emotions and Creating Memories (Limbic System) > Appealing to Logic (Neocortex)•  LTV > One-Time Conversions.•  How to create trust currency, brand loyalty, and community advocacy.•  The importance of relationship-driven marketing and communication tactics.•  How to apply this to social media, content, email, copy, and other media on various platforms. Beyond The Episode Gems:• Grow Your Business Faster Using HubSpot's CRM Platform• Use The Same Recording Platform I Use For My Podcast, Try Riverside.fm For Free• Buy Troy's Book, Strategize Up That Is Referenced In This Episode: StrategizeUpBook.com• Discover All Podcasts On The HubSpot Podcast Network#####Support The Podcast & Connect With Troy: • Rate & Review iDigress: iDigress.fm/Reviews•  Follow Troy's LinkedIn @FindTroy• Get Strategy Solutions & Services: GrowWithTroy.com•  Follow Troy's Instagram @FindTroy•  Subscribe to Troy's YouTube Channel