Study and process of soliciting customers
Amanda Riddle is a former elementary teacher and current full time Mom who wanted to inspire others and gain more knowledge through her online business journey. Tune into this episode of Wake Up Legendary to hear her share her game changing social media growth tips. Follow Amanda on Instagram & Facebook
Here's little piece of market research that I find encouraging as we enter into this Christmas season when we exchange gifts in our families. Marketers have coined the term “kidulting” as the name for a growing consumer craze where adults are buying toys not just for their kids, but for themselves. In fact, the research from the toy association shows that this Christmas, eighty-nine percent of adults plan to buy toys for grown-ups on their list. In addition, forty-three percent of adults plan to buy toys for themselves. What's encouraging about the data is that adults are also looking for toys that will bring their entire family together through play. This trend reminds us of years gone by when families would purchase board games to play together. In a day and age where technology, social media, and busy schedules tend to undermine the growth and health of our family relationships, this is a positive trend. Perhaps this year you can focus on purchases that foster the growth the of your God-given family!
Nigel Lavers is a full time digital marketer who wanted to bring in more income and inspire others. Tune in live to hear how he has built a successful online business through the use of Meta platforms. Follow Nigel on Instagram & Facebook
In this episode of John Di Lemme's Podcast, You will hear the Part 2 message of John Passionately sharing the major Difference of a Salesperson vs. a Marketer... Thanks for Listening and Sharing... You Can Get a Hold of the Book I am teaching from by going to http://www.DiLemmeDevelopmentGroup.com And Thanks again for the Support!!! John Di Lemme C.E.O. and Founder of Di Lemme Development Group, INC. http://www.DiLemmeDevelopmentGroup.com
By integrating behavioral economics principles into your referral marketing strategy, you can elevate your business's growth and harness the power of human behavior. Leveraging social proof, reciprocity, nudging, scarcity, personalization, and gamification will make your referral program irresistible to customers. Remember, building strong relationships with your customers and providing exceptional value are the keys to fostering a culture of referral, creating a cycle of continuous growth for your business. So, take action now, and let the magic of behavioral economics propel your referral business to new heights! Season 7 - Behavioral Economics of Entrepreneurship In the world of entrepreneurship, success often hinges on understanding the intricate workings of human behavior and decision-making. Behavioral economics, a fascinating interdisciplinary field, delves into the psychology behind how individuals make choices, respond to incentives, and process information. In the realm of marketing, applying behavioral economics principles can be a game-changing strategy for entrepreneurs seeking to connect with their target audience, drive sales, and foster brand loyalty. By harnessing insights from behavioral economics, entrepreneurs can craft more persuasive and effective marketing campaigns, leveraging the quirks of human psychology to their advantage. In this series of the behavioral economics in marketing podcast, we will explore the exciting intersection of behavioral economics and marketing, unveiling how this innovative approach can transform entrepreneurial ventures into resounding successes. Behavioral Economics in Marketing Podcast | Understanding how we as humans make decisions is an important part of marketing. Behavioral economics is the study of decision-making and can give keen insight into buyer behavior and help to shape your marketing mix. Marketers can tap into Behavioral Economics to create environments that nudge people towards their products and services, to conduct better market research and analyze their marketing mix. Sandra Thomas-Comenole | Host | Marketing professional with over 15 years of experience leading marketing and sales teams and a rigorously quantitative Master's degree in economics from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.
This will surely be the first in a series we will do on A.I., with its constant changes and advancements! Learn about (written using Dustin's Magai tool!)... Different AI tools have varying strengths and limitations: We discuss the differences between GPT, Claude, and Bard. GPT is known for its creativity, but has limitations in memory and accuracy. Claude prioritizes accuracy and safety, while also having a larger memory. Bard, although initially underwhelming, is expected to improve over time. Integration of multiple AI models can maximize their strengths: Guest Dustin mentions that Magai integrates multiple AI models, allowing users to leverage the strengths of each. This approach can potentially enhance the overall capabilities and effectiveness of AI tools. Surrounding oneself with positive and supportive people is important: Dustin shares a personal business challenge and emphasizes the significance of having positive and supportive individuals around him. This highlights the importance of building a strong network and seeking support from others during challenging times. The episode concludes with a reminder to reach out for help if needed and to remember that difficult times are temporary. Our guest Dustin W. Stout Dustin is an entrepreneur, AI enthusiast, and Founder at Magai. Since starting his blog in 2011, Dustin has built a successful career as a full-time digital marketing consultant, speaker, and has created numerous products that help digital creators accomplish more. His current focus is Magai (maj-eye)—the world's best AI tools in one place. ~._.*._.~ Take our LISTENER Community Survey!!! HERE Making a Marketer is here to give our guests a platform and to provide oodles of value to YOU, our listener! Check out episode 137! And share if you enjoy our show. Let us know what you think (again, link above!) https://bit.ly/mamITuneNEW ::: This episode is made possible by Powers of Marketing - emPOWERing amazing podcast experiences & online and in person events ::: **ALSO: Our editor Avri makes amazing music! Check out his music on Spotify!**
Marketers might not know it, but their segmentation and persona strategies might be hurting them. The urgency of customer needs should drive segmentation strategies, but most companies take a flawed, inside-out approach that obscures accurate signals in buyer behavior.In today's episode, Hosts Klaudia Tirico and Kelly Lindenau replay Neil Baron's session from the B2B Sales & Marketing Exchange. As Managing Director of Baron Strategic Partners and a contributor to Harvard Business Review, Baron shares hard-won lessons and stories from his experiences working with top companies on their segmentation and persona strategies. Throughout his session, he revealed common pitfalls in customer segmentation that stifle revenue growth while providing his proven framework to segment and target customers more effectively.Tune in to learn about: Baron's personal experience with poor B2B market segmentation and its consequences; Marketing and sales strategies for addressing urgent buyer needs; and Effective segmentation strategies that put customer expectations first. RELATED LINKS Connect with Neil here! Read Neil's work in Harvard Business Review. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter. Register now for the B2B Marketing Exchange!
Oliver Sim is a former athlete and current football coach and military man who wanted to bring in more money to support his family. Tune into this episode of Wake Up Legendary to hear his strategies for getting results through Facebook. Follow Ollie on Tiktok & Instagram
This week, returning from Thanksgiving, we are grateful for both Mike Kaput and Paul Roetzer joining us to share the latest AI news. Together, they tackle the latest OpenAI developments, analyze Andrej Karpathy's insightful video on LLMs, explore Ethan Mollick's new article on AI's business impact, and cover the latest AI advancements from various companies. 00:02:41 — AGI, Q* and the latest drama at OpenAI 00:21:59 — Andrej Karpathy's “The Busy Person's Intro to LLMs,” is now on YouTube 00:41:14 — Ethan Mollick's article on how AI should cause companies to reinvent themselves 00:49:54 — Anthropic releases a new version of Claude, Claude 2.1 00:52:42 — Inflection unveils Inflection-2, an AI model that may outperform Google and Meta 00:55:10 — Google's Bard Chatbot can now answer questions about YouTube videos 00:56:37 — ElevenLabs Speech to Speech tool 00:58:06 — StabilityAI releases Stable Video Diffusion 00:59:39 — Cohere launches a suite of fine-tuning tools to customize AI models. Meet Akkio, the generative business intelligence platform that lets agencies add AI-powered analytics and predictive modeling to their service offering. Akkio lets your customers chat with their data, create real-time visualizations, and make predictions. Just connect your data, add your logo, and embed an AI analytics service to your site or Slack. Get your free trial at akkio.com/aipod. Listen to the full episode of the podcast: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/podcast-showcase Want to receive our videos faster? SUBSCRIBE to our channel! Visit our website: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com Receive our weekly newsletter: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/newsletter-subscription Looking for content and resources? Register for a free webinar: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/resources#filter=.webinar Come to our next Marketing AI Conference: www.MAICON.ai Enroll in AI Academy for Marketers: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/academy/home Join our community: Slack: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/slack-group-form LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mktgai Twitter: https://twitter.com/MktgAi Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marketing.ai/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marketingAIinstitute
Next in Media spoke with Ryan Detert, CEO of Influential, one of the top firms helping brands sort through the world of influencers and social platforms. Detert talked about the state of TikTok, and what many marketers miss regarding its power over younger audiences. Detert also talked about whether he sees potential in social shopping in the US, and which influencers are on the rise. Guest: Ryan DetertHost:Mike ShieldsIn Partnership with: Comcast AdvertisingProduced by: Fresh Take
Only 22% of CMOs feel they have a collaborative relationship with their CFO. And only 39% of financial directors have confidence their marketing team will make smart commercial decisions. The numbers, well, aren't great. To uncover the reason for this disconnect, Elena, Angela, and Rob are joined by CFO Brent Longval. Together, they explore why marketing and finance can end up at opposite ends of the table and how learning to speak the same language can close the gap. There's work to do on both sides, but it's worth it... 87% of marketers who do have a collaborative relationship with finance are happy with their ability to measure marketing performance. Topics covered: [01:30] The state of the CMO/CFO relationship[05:00] Why finance often sees marketing as another expense[10:30] Does your CFO have a finance or accounting background?[12:00] Why finance and marketing can easily clash[16:30] Building a collaborative partnership with finance[21:00] Learning finance's language[24:30] Investing in relationship-building and trustTo learn more, visit marketingarchitects.com/podcast. Resources: 2023 MarketingWeek Article: https://www.marketingweek.com/cmo-council-cfo-relationship/Get more research-backed marketing strategies by subscribing to The Marketing Architects on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Daniel Borenstein is a full time tech professional and Dad who wanted the ability to provide more for his family and to travel. Tune into this episode of Wake Up Legendary to hear how he discovered his digital marketing destiny and is helping people to use technology and social media to simplify their lives Follow Daniel on Instagram
In this episode of John Di Lemme's Podcast, You will John Passionately share the major Difference of a Salesperson vs. a Marketer... Thanks for Listening and Sharing... You Can Get a Hold of the Book I am teaching from by going to http://www.DiLemmeDevelopmentGroup.com And Thanks again for the Support!!! John Di Lemme C.E.O. and Founder of Di Lemme Development Group, INC. http://www.DiLemmeDevelopmentGroup.com
In this episode of The Brainy Business podcast, you'll hear an insightful conversation between host Melina Palmer and guest Prince Ghuman, a renowned neuromarketer and author. The discussion centers around the importance of incorporating neuroscience and psychology in marketing strategies. Prince emphasizes the need for marketers to understand human behavior and behavior science in order to create more effective campaigns and improve customer satisfaction. He discusses concepts like pattern recognition, the mere exposure effect, and the balance between novelty and familiarity. Prince also explores the adoption curve and how different consumer segments prefer varying degrees of newness and safety. By incorporating these insights into your marketing strategies, you can better connect with consumers and optimize your marketing efforts. This episode provides valuable knowledge and practical tools for marketers seeking to enhance their marketing strategies and campaigns. In this episode, you will: Discover the untapped potential of incorporating neuroscience and psychology in your marketing strategies for more effective customer engagement. Unravel the concept of NAS (new and safe) and unlock its impact on consumer preferences, positioning your brand as a trusted choice in the market. Gain a deep understanding of the adoption curve and learn how to appeal to different consumer segments, maximizing your marketing efforts for better ROI. Harness the power of pattern recognition to identify consumer preferences and create meaningful brand connections that drive loyalty and repeat business. Explore the shared responsibility of consumers and marketers in shaping the digital landscape, ensuring ethical practices that foster trust and satisfaction in the online marketplace. Show Notes: 00:00:00 - Introduction, Melina introduces the episode and welcomes Prince Ghuman as the guest. They discuss the intersection of behavioral science and marketing and Prince's background in the field. 00:02:08 - Prince's Background and Playbook, Prince shares his journey into the world of behavioral science and marketing. He discusses his experience working at startups and established corporations, as well as his transition to becoming a professor. Prince highlights the importance of neuroscience and psychology in marketing and mentions the playbook he developed over the years. 00:06:12 - Principles vs. Hard Science in Neuromarketing, Prince explains the division between principles and hard science in neuromarketing. He emphasizes the significance of understanding the principles of human behavior and psychology in marketing, even if neuroimaging is not accessible to all marketers. 00:08:23 - The Importance of Principles in Neuromarketing, Prince discusses the importance of principles in neuromarketing and how they can be applied to improve marketing strategies. He mentions the lack of emphasis on neuroscience and psychology in traditional marketing curricula and highlights the need for more practical applications of behavioral science in marketing. 00:10:00 - Applying Decision-Making Science to Marketing, Prince mentions the book Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman and its significance in understanding decision-making. However, he emphasizes the need for tactics and practical applications of decision-making science in marketing and customer experiences. He envisions a future where neuromarketing principles are integrated. 00:15:00 - Evolution of Marketing and A/B Testing, The conversation begins with a discussion about the evolution of marketing and the use of A/B testing. The guest emphasizes the importance of understanding the psychological underpinnings behind marketing strategies and conducting more scientifically informed tests. 00:16:30 - Why We Like What We Like, The guest introduces the concept of the mere exposure effect, which states that the more we are exposed to something, the more likely we are to prefer it. They also discuss the idea of "new and safe," where people are attracted to things that are both novel and familiar. Understanding this concept can help brands come up with better product tests and launch strategies. 00:18:16 - The Psychological Context of Product Adoption, The guest explains how the psychological context of product adoption is often overlooked. Early adopters are more accepting of imbalances between new and safe, while late adopters prefer safety. Understanding this can help brand managers tailor their launch strategies and target different segments of the market. 00:21:14 - Using Familiarity and Novelty in Product Launches, The guest uses the example of Oreo cookies to illustrate how brands can incorporate familiarity and novelty to attract mass market appeal. By sandwiching a new flavor between familiar elements, brands can grab attention and break through established patterns, even if the new flavor itself doesn't sell well. 00:24:34 - Pleasure in Pattern Recognition, Prince addresses a question about why humans derive pleasure from pattern recognition. 00:29:31 - The Use of Game Mechanics in Engagement, The guest talks about how game mechanics are being used across various genres of games to increase engagement. He gives examples of sports games like NBA, soccer, FIFA, and NFL, as well as board games like Monopoly. Unpredictability is a key factor in increasing engagement, and this is seen in social media apps like Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, where users are constantly scrolling to see what comes up next in their feed. 00:30:46 - Engagement 2.0 and Compulsive Behavior, The guest discusses how engagement in digital products, like social media apps, can lead to compulsive behavior. The unpredictability of what comes next on these platforms keeps users engaged and scrolling. He emphasizes that engagement is only a few steps away from compulsive behavior and explains why some apps have come under fire for exploiting this. 00:34:57 - The Role of Users in Data Science and Behavior Modeling, The guest points out that while tech companies are often criticized for using data science unethically, users also play a role in this behavior modeling. He suggests that consumers need to be willing to pay for digital products and services if they want to see a change in the way data science is used. He compares it to the organic food movement, where consumers demanded and paid a premium for healthier options. 00:36:27 - Marketers' Responsibility in Understanding Neuroscience, The guest emphasizes the importance for marketers to understand neuroscience and psychology in order to create better products and experiences for consumers. 00:43:10 - Importance of Understanding Your Customers, Understanding your customers' goals and communication preferences is crucial in business. Avoid comparing yourself to others and focus on meeting your customers' needs. This is the foundation of Melina Palmer's book What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You. 00:43:37 - Conclusion, Melina's top insights from the conversation. What stuck with you while listening to the episode? What are you going to try? Come share it with Melina on social media -- you'll find her as @thebrainybiz everywhere and as Melina Palmer on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show. I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let's connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Connect with Prince: Follow Prince on LinkedIn Follow Prince on Twitter PopNeuro website Learn and Support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina's Books. Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Blindsight, by Prince Ghuman and Matt Johnson Neurobranding, by Peter Steidl Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman Crossing the Chasm, by Geoffrey Moore The Tipping Point, by Malcolm Gladwell Top Recommended Next Episode: Neuroscience and Behavioral Economics, with Matt Johnson (ep 160) Already Heard That One? Try These: Indistractable, with Nir Eyal (ep 290) The Life-Saving Skill of Story, with Michelle Auerbach (ep 288) A More Beautiful Question, with Warren Berger (ep 200) Branding That Means Business, with Matt Johnson (ep 231) Disney: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (ep 292) Availability Bias (ep 310) Familiarity Bias (ep 149) Relativity (ep 12) Get Your DOSE Of Brain Chemicals (ep 123) Habits (ep 256) The Power of Habit (ep 22) Non-Obvious Thinking with Rohit Bhargava (ep 297) Surprise & Delight (ep 276) McDonalds' Irrational Loyalty Program (ep 279) Other Important Links: Brainy Bites - Melina's LinkedIn Newsletter We Asked: Why Does Oreo Keep Releasing New Flavors?
This is a time of the year when anything can happen - performance can be more than expected or worse than expected, and there is so much riding on this moment in time. So Molly and John are on the show today to help you pace yourself and get through this final stretch of the season. The first takeaway is (spoiler alert): Don't Panic! Molly and John encourage you to play it slow and steady as they drop nuggets of wisdom, encouragement, and 'next steps' gleaned from years of experience in the wild waters of Digital marketing, Info Businesses, and E-commerce. You'll hear tips on what to do if things aren't going so great, as well as how to adapt and prepare for the next phase of sales. Be sure to share this episode with anyone you think will benefit from their expertise. LINKS The Smart Marketer Cyber Monday Sale, https://smartmarketer.com/2023-black-friday-sale/ Molly Pittman, https://mollypittman.com/ John Grimshaw,https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnwgrimshaw/ YOUR ENGAGEMENT MATTERS Thank you to our listeners for the 5-Star Reviews and meaningful messages! This Podcast has gone above and beyond what we expected, and we have YOU to thank for that. It makes a difference when you follow us (and leave a review) on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-smart-marketer-podcast/id1522629407) or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. We'd also love it if you repost this episode to your social media, share your favorite episodes with friends, and tag us in your next post, #WeOutHere. Have questions? Please send us an email at email@example.com, and don't forget to… Serve the World Unselfishly and Profit
Ericka Williams is a Texas Youtuber who wanted the freedom to be able to choose her own schedule and inspire her family to see that anything is possible. Tune into this episode of Wake Up Legendary to hear her journey of launching a successful digital marketing business and her strategies for maintaining that success. Follow Ericka on Instagram | 2nd Instagram | Youtube
Hailey Heitzenrater is a full time digital marketer who wanted more financial security and time with her family. Tune in live to hear her share her secret formula to never quitting. Follow Hailey on Instagram
Here's how NOT to be sleazy with your marketing. Join George as he spills the tea on sleazy marketing tactics. We're cutting through the noise of business and marketing and getting straight to the point of how to build authentic relationships with your audience. Tune in to learn…The 5 sleaziest marketing tactics and how to flip the script and market in an authentic way.How to create value with your audience and build a transparent relationship with them.How to craft content that speaks to the right audience for your business.Relationships are the key to your success, so skip the sleazy tacts. Focus on value and build something that lasts. Looking to master your marketing? Check out some of George's favorite episodes with the links below.→ How To Become The Master Of Customer Relationships w/ Ashley Deluca→ The 30-Second Email Method ($$$)→ Baby Shark for Business → The Science (and How) Behind 1 Billion YouTube Views With Drew Hitchcock→ The #1 Reason Why Your Leads Are Ghosting You—Looking for access to my entire book recommendation library? Check out my Amazon Storefront -- your hub for a curated collection of transformative books covering business, marketing, mindset, and personal development. Shop HERE
A business plan is a comprehensive written document that outlines the goals, strategies, operations, financial projections, and other important aspects of a business. It serves as a roadmap for the organization, providing a clear and structured outline of how the business will be conceived, developed, and operated. Business plans are typically used for various purposes, including securing financing, guiding company operations, and communicating the company's vision to stakeholders.
Today's guest is a transformative and customer-focused leader that has helped grow huge companies including PayPal, Facebook, and BlueVine. Dhiraj Kumar is the CMO of Dashlane. Dhiraj and Host Chris Mechanic discuss the importance of paying attention to the details of your customers, why getting a fresh perspective is so important to developing great marketing, The post Rewiring marketers' brains to pay attention to customers with Dhiraj Kumar appeared first on WebMechanix.
We all think of ourselves as detailers, we work hard to be the best detailer we know. But we don't think of ourselves as marketers and we should really change that. Check out my Amazon Store Front For All My Recomend Products: https://www.amazon.com/shop/jimbobalaam SUBSCRIBE TO MY CHANNEL: https://www.youtube.com/user/jbalaam?sub_confirmation=1 CONNECT WITH JIMBO: INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/jimbobalaam/ PODCAST: http://www.AutoDetailingPodcast.com FACEBOOK: http://www.Facebook.com/AutoDetailingPodcast or http://www.facebook.com/jimbo.balaam
Our Earth-Killing system veils the connection between Consumerism and Militarism, a fundamental connection. But this current war doesn't pass the common sense test for most Consumers. Controlling our sense of right and wrong is a primary goal of the Consumerist project. Marketers are holding their breath as the war in the Mideast and the Ukraine feature murders of innocents in the broad daylight of the media. Looking into the eyes of freshly bombed children these last weeks threatens to break Consumerism's hold. Nothing is worse for people, and nothing is worse for the Earth.
Aaliyah Horton is an army veteran and full time stay at home Mom who wanted to provide more for her family and be able to spend more time with them. Tune into this episode of Wake Up Legendary to hear her strategy to gaining followers FAST on social media. Follow Aaliyah on Tiktok & Instagram
In this episode of Product Marketing Life, Mark Assini is joined by Tamara Grominsky, a seasoned product marketing leader and founder of PMM Camp. They dive into the growing trend of product marketers becoming founders, striking out on their own as entrepreneurs. Tamara shares how her career has always embodied an entrepreneurial spirit, from partnering directly with founders during her PMM roles to recently stepping out on her own. She discusses why product marketers make natural entrepreneurs, given their business acumen, customer orientation, and ability to thrive in uncertainty.They discuss launching new products and services – both within companies and as entrepreneurs. Tamara outlines key differences like limited resources and vulnerability when launching your own business. She also details her journey of co-creating a new course, Ready to Launch.Key TakeawaysWhy product marketers make strong entrepreneursThe ups and downs of self-launching: How launching a personal venture differsThe benefits of partnering with PMMs with diverse strengths and expertiseWhy many experienced product marketers still seek validationHow financial acuity is integral in driving impactAnd more.
Leveraging scarcity is a proven technique to close sales and increase customer engagement. By creating a sense of urgency and exclusivity, you tap into customers' fear of missing out and drive them to take immediate action. However, it's essential to use scarcity ethically and honestly, ensuring that the limited availability is genuine and aligns with the value you provide. When applied strategically, scarcity can be a powerful tool to boost conversions, create brand loyalty, and drive long-term business success. Season 7 - Behavioral Economics of Entrepreneurship In the world of entrepreneurship, success often hinges on understanding the intricate workings of human behavior and decision-making. Behavioral economics, a fascinating interdisciplinary field, delves into the psychology behind how individuals make choices, respond to incentives, and process information. In the realm of marketing, applying behavioral economics principles can be a game-changing strategy for entrepreneurs seeking to connect with their target audience, drive sales, and foster brand loyalty. By harnessing insights from behavioral economics, entrepreneurs can craft more persuasive and effective marketing campaigns, leveraging the quirks of human psychology to their advantage. In this series of the behavioral economics in marketing podcast, we will explore the exciting intersection of behavioral economics and marketing, unveiling how this innovative approach can transform entrepreneurial ventures into resounding successes. Behavioral Economics in Marketing Podcast | Understanding how we as humans make decisions is an important part of marketing. Behavioral economics is the study of decision-making and can give keen insight into buyer behavior and help to shape your marketing mix. Marketers can tap into Behavioral Economics to create environments that nudge people towards their products and services, to conduct better market research and analyze their marketing mix. Sandra Thomas-Comenole | Host | Marketing professional with over 15 years of experience leading marketing and sales teams and a rigorously quantitative Master's degree in economics from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.
Chad Burgers is a full time magician from South Africa who needed to gain more income to pay off debt. Tune into this episode of Wake Up Legendary to hear how he is getting great results through YouTube. Subscribe to Chad on Youtube Follow him on Tiktok & Facebook
In this episode of In The Club Podcast by Club Colors, we are diving into the symbiotic relationship between AI and creativity in marketing. As Adam Swartout shares his experiences from working at Disneyland to spearheading creative strategies at LKQ Corporation and Pick Your Part, he emphasizes the evolving landscape where AI complements and enhances creative processes. Unveil the efficient AI applications, ingenious marketing strategies, and pivotal rebranding insights transforming the automotive salvage industry.KEY TAKEAWAYSThe Evolving Role of AI: AI is not here to replace creatives but offers new avenues for innovation and efficiency.Efficiency in Creativity: Drawing from experiences at Disneyland and embracing Disney's efficiency mindset in marketing, Adam shares how being efficient is crucial, especially in a business-to-business marketing landscape.AI's Impact on Creativity: Proper utilization of AI tools amplifies productivity, allowing marketers to achieve more in less time while maintaining brand integrity and relevance.Striking a Balance in Creativity and Risk: Calculated risks in creativity backed by data and addressing real problems pave the way for successful and innovative marketing strategies.The Power of Storytelling: Leveraging storytelling and engagement to bridge internal and external communication, fostering brand loyalty, and driving productivity within global organizations.QUOTES"AI is going to be the thing that could either replace us or give us new opportunities.""I see problems as opportunities. I'm always glass half full.""You're in marketing and you're too safe; you're not really doing marketing.""Sometimes, you don't always need to rebuild; sometimes, it's just sprinkling a little powdered sugar on top of that thing.""The biggest thing is, there's not a lot of mom and pop shops that take the same level of care that we do."Connect and learn more about Adam Swartout through the links below.LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/agswartout/If you enjoyed this episode of In the Club Podcast with Club Colors, please leave us a review on your favorite podcasting platform!Club Colors: https://www.clubcolors.com/
What do Deuter, Ortovox, Clif, onX, and Salomon all have in common? They have all had the pleasure of having this episode's guest as an employee. In this episode, we're hearing from one of our favorite past guests, Becky Marcelliano, but from a different perspective. Becky currently works at onX as their Senior Access & Stewardship Marketing Manager. In her role, she works across all three verticals of onX (Hunt, Offroad, and Backcountry) to lead program development and promotional efforts of the brand's access and stewardship initiatives. In this episode, Cole and Becky discuss: How words make the difference between a brand landing or not Why language is so critical for messaging your brand How language can unite us The power of words connecting with our customers And much more! Catch up with Becky on Instagram or LinkedIn. This podcast is brought to you by Port Side Productions. If you work at a brand or agency in the outdoor industry that needs help bringing a video project to life, head over to portsidepro.com and send us an email. We'd love to help!
On the list of priorities for high-growth companies, where should branding land? How, when, and why should a company start to think about and invest heavily in brand-building activities? These are the questions Alex Woods faces every day. On this episode, Alex, the Head of Brand Creative Strategy for Accenture Song, dives into those questions and gives some strategies for companies that are looking to take the next step.Tune in to learn:The role of AI for brand creatives (2:30)Coinbase at the Super Bowl (8:00)Why branding is a tool for driving growth (22:30)Understanding when is the right time for companies to invest in branding (26:35)The distinct components of your marketing mix (35:00)How to position yourself at the table (41:40)Getting onto the brand strategy career path (44:30)Mentions:Coinbase Super Bowl adMission.org is a media studio producing content for world-class clients. Learn more at http://www.mission.org.
Been hearing a lot about AI but think it's more something for the CTO to worry about? Think again.Janet Balis is the marketing practice leader at EY Consulting. Hear why marketers, and especially marketing leaders, are poised to play a pivotal role when it comes to how organizations integrate AI into their businesses to gain a competitive edge. It starts, she says, with clean and organized data as the foundation.“Imagine you've got the best recipe in the world and your ingredients are stale in your refrigerator or you got them from a bad grocery store. You're not going to get the right result,” Balis says. She explains that analogy and more of what she's seeing as she consults with some of the world's best companies and marketing departments.For Further Reading:MMA Study: https://www.mmaglobal.com/documents/data-maturity-20-2023-vs-2021MMA Study: https://www.mmaglobal.com/documents/state-ai-marketingGenerative AI's Act Two from Sequoia Capital: https://www.sequoiacap.com/article/generative-ai-act-two/
This summer, consumers dug into their wallets to attend concerts, watch movies in theaters, and enjoy sporting events in person. But as economic concerns grow, can the summer's spending keep up for retailers' crucial holiday sales season? This week, Elena, Angela, and Rob are joined by Strategy Director Kyle Lewis to discuss the trends retailers can expect during the holiday shopping season and how they can cultivate positive experiences to support sales going into 2024. Starting with the fact that the real holiday shopping season began months ago. Topics covered: [01:30] Economic predictions for the holidays[03:30] Recapping last year's holiday shopping trends[06:00] Consumer intent is high for spending this year[09:30] The shopping season started earlier than ever[19:00] The importance of simplifying customer experiences[21:30] How Marketing Architects sold a child's toy during the holidaysTo learn more, visit marketingarchitects.com/podcast. Resources: 2023 CNN Business Article: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/economy/consumer-spending-winter-outlook/index.htmlGet more research-backed marketing strategies by subscribing to The Marketing Architects on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Trista Blomdahl is a former preschool teacher who needed a new stream of income to keep her family afloat. Tune in to this episode of Wake Up Legendary to hear how she found a new purpose through her digital marketing business. Follow Trista on Tiktok & Instagram
In light of the developments from OpenAI over the weekend, we are coming to you with a new episode a little ahead of schedule. Following OpenAI's announcement on Friday, there has been widespread speculation about future implications amidst other significant developments. Join us this week as Paul provides a brief history of OpenAI's journey, a recap of recent events, and thoughts on what is yet to come. 00:01:46 — An overview of this weekend's events; Sam Altman fired, Greg Brockman quits 00:06:35 — Taking flight while OpenAI crashes 00:13:09 — Three factors that initially jumped out to Paul 00:15:10 — The history and structure of OpenAI explained 00:33:35 — Superintelligence and navigating the future of AGI 00:36:00 — Altman's next steps towards GPT-5 and development of OpenAI 00:42:15 — The current state of affairs of Sam Altman, Microsoft and OpenAI 00:49:49 — Final thoughts on the beginning of a transformational time Meet Akkio, the generative business intelligence platform that lets agencies add AI-powered analytics and predictive modeling to their service offering. Akkio lets your customers chat with their data, create real-time visualizations, and make predictions. Just connect your data, add your logo, and embed an AI analytics service to your site or Slack. Get your free trial at akkio.com/aipod. Listen to the full episode of the podcast: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/podcast-showcase Want to receive our videos faster? SUBSCRIBE to our channel! Visit our website: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com Receive our weekly newsletter: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/newsletter-subscription Looking for content and resources? Register for a free webinar: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/resources#filter=.webinar Come to our next Marketing AI Conference: www.MAICON.ai Enroll in AI Academy for Marketers: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/academy/home Join our community: Slack: https://www.marketingaiinstitute.com/slack-group-form LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mktgai Twitter: https://twitter.com/MktgAi Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marketing.ai/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marketingAIinstitute
Do you have a local business? Do you want it to grow? Perhaps you are struggling to keep your business floating since customers don't always come. If you don't take action, nothing will happen to develop your business. As such, begin to level up your local service business through ads. Put your business out there, let the people find you, and provide service to your customers. Additionally, with the help of Kuware, setting up your digital marketing strategy will now be more suitable for your optimal growth. Avi Kumar is the CEO of Kuware, a company helping local service businesses and the agencies that serve them create and implement science-based marketing strategies. They specialize in digital marketing unique to your market and budget. In today's episode, Avi shares his knowledge about utilizing digital marketing to enhance the growth of local service businesses, SEO strategies, business growth through acquisition and synergy, and finding the right mentor. Don't miss this knowledgeable episode of the Marketer of the Day Podcast! Resources Kuware Site Avi Kumar on Facebook Avi Kumar on linkedin
Intellectual property (IP) refers to a category of legally recognized and protected assets that are the result of creative or intellectual effort. These assets are intangible in nature and can include a wide range of creations and innovations produced by individuals, businesses, or organizations. Intellectual property rights provide legal protection and ownership of these intangible assets, allowing creators and inventors to control and benefit from their work.
Join Tessa Burg and Tom Madrilejos as they share their enthusiasm for AI on this episode of the Leader Generation podcast. Tune in for an interesting discussion about the potential of AI and machine learning and their impact on marketing and communications. Explore the landscape of AI adoption, ranging from novices to experts. Gain insights into the common concerns plaguing colleagues and clients, including plagiarism, data leaks, IP issues, and AI's sustainability in content marketing and SEO. Uncover key pillars of successful AI integration in marketing: transparency, communication, and risk management. Discover how to drive innovation within your organization by establishing an AI Council complete with cross-functional teams. Don't miss this engaging conversation that sheds light on the future of marketing with AI. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes covering AI, marketing channels, measurement, risk management, and more. Leader Generation is hosted by Tessa Burg and brought to you by Mod Op. Related episodes: https://tenloradio.com/e/how-to-drive-business-growth-with-an-ai-council/ https://tenloradio.com/e/unscripted-bonus-episode-on-ai-machine-learning/ About Tom Madrilejos: Tom Madrilejos is an accomplished Associate Director of Audience Strategy with a proven track record of driving digital marketing success. With a wealth of experience, he leads alongside client teams in developing cutting-edge digital marketing and go-to-market strategies. Tom specializes in harnessing the power of AI and machine learning to optimize marketing campaigns, enhance customer engagement and achieve superior results. His passion for innovation and commitment to delivering exceptional value make him a vital asset in digital marketing. About Tessa Burg: Tessa Burg is the Chief Technology Officer and Host of the Leader Generation podcast at Mod Op. She's been leading data-driven marketing and technology teams for 15+ years on both the agency and client sides of the business for domestic and international brands, including American Greetings, Amazon, Nestlé, Anlene, Moen and many more. Tessa has deep skills in data and tech architecture, software product development and management, digital transformation and strategy. As CTO, she oversees Mod Op's technology stack to ensure the agency is leveraging and securing the right platforms and data to deliver valuable and measurable results across physical, digital and virtual experiences. Tessa can be reached on LinkedIn or at Tessa.Burg@ModOp.com.
Next in Media spoke with Freewheel's GM Mark McKee about the problem with repetitive, messy ad delivery on FAST channels, and why the TV industry has to clean up its supply chains asap. McKee also talked about whether we're seeing too much CTV ad inventory too soon, and whether this market will be fully programmatic next year. Guest: Mark McKeeHost: Mike ShieldsIn Partnership with: Comcast AdvertisingProduced by: Fresh Take
Jazmeen Caldwell is a full time HR and compliance representative along with being a full time Mom. She had a strong desire to help others while being able to bring more income to her family. Tune into this episode of Wake Up Legendary to hear how she gained 50k followers in less than 2 months and is consistently gaining more each day. Follow Jazmeen on Instagram
Many of our listeners are Marketers and Entrepreneurs inspired to change the world. So today, we're tackling something we've never discussed on the show! We're drilling into the specifics of Nonprofit marketing with special guest Ebony Smith of Gracefull Grind Strategies. Whether you run a nonprofit, work for a nonprofit or you're an entrepreneur looking to give back, you're probably wondering how to approach Nonprofit marketing. Does it operate like a "regular business"? Can I just apply the marketing strategies I already use? What are the differences? Whether you're trying to raise Awareness, build your community, or raise funds, you'll hear some vital keys to success in today's episode. YOUR ENGAGEMENT MATTERS Thank you to our listeners for the 5-Star Reviews and meaningful messages! This Podcast has gone above and beyond what we expected, and we have YOU to thank for that. It makes a difference when you follow us (and leave a review) on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-smart-marketer-podcast/id1522629407) or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. We'd also love it if you repost this episode to your social media, share your favorite episodes with friends, and tag us in your next post, #WeOutHere. Have questions? Please send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org, and don't forget to… Serve the World Unselfishly and Profit LINKS Molly Pittman, https://mollypittman.com/ Ebony Smith, https://www.gracefullgrindstrategies.com/ Train My Traffic Person ("TMTP") https://smartmarketer.com/train-my-traffic-person/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI37nwh5Lu_AIV0AitBh2cWwUbEAAYASAAEgLN4vD_BwE
This week on the Million Dollar Mastermind podcast, host Larry Weidel is joined by Sunny McGaw, Founder of Sunny McGaw Marketing, a marketing agency that provides you with the knowledge and tools you need to use organic, non-paid strategies to help you grow your business.
Marketers tell us that the before and after photos are among the most powerful tools to motivate change and sell products. We love a dramatic before and after photo. And in Exodus 2 through 11, we see a dramatic before and after. We begin with an overconfident, impulsive Moses who dramatically acts and drastically fails, which leads to a…
Regret is a powerful emotion. One might not think it has a place in a marketer's messaging toolbox. However, you might be surprised to learn that in addition to being a powerful emotion, it can also be a powerful tool. The reason we regret things depends on the situation. We can regret a purchase we made. We can regret a purchase we didn't, too. What we regret and how we respond to it requires understanding how regret happens. Inside each of our minds, we have three selves. There is the Actual Self, the one we are despite any notions we might have. There is also the Ought Self. This self is the one with obligations and responsibilities. Then, there is the Ideal Self, which is who we want to be. Regret is often a conflict between the Actual Self and one of the other two. What we regret and who we blame has a lot to do with comparisons between these selves internally. Also, these comparisons might differ depending upon the customer segment to which the individual belongs. Therefore, to use regret as a marketing tool, it is essential to understand what comparison your customers are making and to what standard or value they hold. In this episode, we explain the psychology of regret, how it drives our future behavior, and what to do about it if it happens to your customers after buying your product or service. We also discuss how you can use it to create improved experiences with no regrets for your customers. Here are some other key moments in the discussion: 01:49 Colin explains how he was once a Sony Superfan and how it led to one of the purchases he regrets nearly every day. 03:49 Ryan explains how Colin's perception of self plays a role in his purchase regret regarding the television by explaining the different selves we each have. 10:23 We get into the idea that how much regret we feel has a lot to do with how much control we think we had regarding the decisions made. 14:53 We discuss the impact of regret in customer experience settings and start a discussion about how an organization could respond. 19:04 Ryan explains that people regret different things in the short term vs. the long term. 25:46 We both share our final thoughts on the key takeaways a marketer should have about how to leverage regret in their messaging. _________________________________________________________________ Did you know we have a YouTube Channel too? Check it out here. Follow Colin on LinkedIn HERE.
Feel like you're becoming irrelevant and lost in the industry? In this episode of Ponderings from the Perch, CEO and Momma Bird at Little Bird Marketing, Priscilla McKinney, is joined by Nancie McDonnell Ruder, an experienced marketing strategist, branding consultant and consumer researcher. As Founder and CEO of Noetic, a Marketing and Leadership Consulting Firm, Nancie shares the issues marketers face and the steps to move past old thinking and onto new strategies. Marketers today are confronted with challenges that demand constant vigilance. The fear of losing resonance with target audiences due to evolving trends and dynamic consumer behavior is a perpetual concern. It's easy to go at these new problems with old solutions. People get comfortable with what they are confident in and don't want things to change. We all have feelings about what we are and aren't good at. Even when we should find new digital marketing tools, reconsider our content strategy or rethink our media planning, we stay with the known processes. Repeating phrases like “jack of all trades, master of none” will do no good. Specialization is not the replacement for learning new ideas and methodologies. Striking a balance between innovative content strategy and data analytics remains a constant battle. The marketer's hope lies in decoding these challenges, seeking methods that yield genuine connections with the audience, and achieving a sustainable marketing strategy template. Learn how to leverage your strengths for innovation, seek learning opportunities, and address identified gaps in your marketing plan template. SPONSORS Are you looking for experts and tools to collect research data worldwide? Global sampling, field management and data collection are just some of the services that Gazelle Global provides. Visit gazelleglobal.com to learn more about how our expertise can help you unearth quality data that drives meaningful insights. Get your research done anywhere around the world quickly and efficiently. Visit gazelleglobal.com today. Priscilla McKinney, CEO at Little Bird Marketing, is thrilled to announce the release of her book, "Collaboration is the New Competition: Why the Future of Work Rewards A Cross Pollinating Hive Mind and How Not to Get Left Behind." The book's chapters are designed to be time-efficient, ensuring busy professionals can easily integrate these transformative ideas into their workflow. From discussing the state of affairs in business to providing fundamental strategies and seven practical anchors for staying on course, this book offers a fresh perspective and a competitive advantage in today's complex business landscape. Visit priscillamckinney.com for more information.
How Joe Stolte evolved his company from its original vision to building an "operating system of marketing" and what you can to do to more easily build an email list and drive sales through content-driven newsletters If you'd like to join world-renowned Entrepreneurs at the next Genius Network Event or want to learn more about Genius Network, go to www.GeniusNetwork.com. Here's a glance at what you'll discover from Joe and Dan in this episode: How Joe Stolte's AI-powered newsletter system saves Entrepreneurs hours each week while dramatically increasing their email open rates Advice on viewing yourself as a "scientist" when starting a new business to test ideas without attachment to initial outcomes Tips for utilizing Daily.ai to continuously refer and promote your relationships with other thought leaders and experts How Daily.ai uses machine learning to get smarter over time about what each subscriber really wants to read Why your attention is your most valuable asset as an Entrepreneur (AND: How to access an "automatic marketing manager" that provides useful insights for your marketing activities) Lessons Joe Stolte has learned from transforming multiple tech companies and applying AI to solve marketing problems
We released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now, more than a decade later, we're celebrating the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and Chad caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen. We chatted about what they're up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show, their time at thoughtbot, and more! Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. CHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel. We released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now more than a decade later, were celebrating this: the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and I caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen. We chatted about what they're up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show and their time at thoughtbot, and more. First up: Ben Orenstein. Ben was the very first host of the show back in 2012 when he was a developer at thoughtbot. He is now the co-founder and Head of Product at Tuple, a remote pair programming tool for designers and developers. Ben, it's great to talk to you again. It's been a while since you and I talked. How have you been? BEN: I've been decent, yeah. It's fun to be back to my roots a little bit. I told some folks that I work with that I was coming back to the pod for the 500th Episode, and they were stoked. So, it's kind of a treat to get to be on these airwaves again. CHAD: What have you been up to since you left this show and thoughtbot? BEN: Well, I started a company. So, I was at thoughtbot for a while; I think it was seven years. And I eventually sort of struck out to start my own thing–had a false start or two here and there. And then, I ended up starting a company called Tuple, and we still exist today, fortunately. Tuple is a tool for doing remote pair programming. We started off on macOS and then wrote a Linux client. And we're launching a Windows client now. But it's sort of, like, screen sharing with remote control for developers who are actually writing code and want to have great, low latency remote control and who care about screen share quality and that sort of thing. I started that about five years ago with two co-founders. Today, we are a team of 11, I think it is. And it's been going well. Our timing was really great, it turned out. We launched a little bit before COVID. So, remote work turned into a lot more of a thing, and we were already in the market. So, that helped us a ton. It was quite a wild ride there for a bit. But things have calmed down a little lately, but it's still fun. I'm, like, really enjoying being a co-founder of a software company. It was what I've always sort of wanted to do. And it turns out it actually is pretty fun and pretty great. Although there are, of course, the ups and downs of business ownership. It is never quite as calm or relaxing as being an employee somewhere else. CHAD: You started Tuple instigated by...full disclosure: thoughtbot's an early customer of Tuple. We're still a customer. We use it a lot. BEN: Woo-hoo. I appreciate that. Thank you. CHAD: If I remember right, you started and were sort of instigated to create Tuple because there was a prior product that then Slack bought, and then it started to degrade. And now, it no longer exists in the same way that it did before. BEN: Yeah. So, there was this tool called Screenhero, which I actually started using -- CHAD: [inaudible 02:14] BEN: Yeah, first at thoughtbot. Some other thoughtboter introduced me to it, and we would use it for pair programming. And I was like, oh, this is nice. And then yeah, Slack kind of acqui-hired it and more or less ended up shutting the product down. And so, there was this gap in the market. And I would ask my friends, I would ask thoughtboters and other developers, like, "What are you using now that Screenhero is gone?" And no one had a good answer. And so, after a while of this thing sort of staring me in the face, I was like, we have to try to solve this need. There's clearly a hole in the market. Yeah, so we were heavily inspired by them in the early days. Hopefully, we've charted our own path now. But they were definitely...the initial seed was, you know, let's do Screenhero but try to not get bought early or something. CHAD: [laughs] How did you or did you feel like you captured a lot of the Screenhero customers and reached them in those early days? BEN: I think so. The pitch for it was sort of shockingly easy because Screenhero had kind of blazed this trail. Like, I would often just be like, "Oh, we're making a thing. Do you remember Screenhero?" And they'd go, "Oh yeah, I loved Screenhero". I'd be like, "Yeah, we're going to try to do that." And they'd be like, "Nice. Sign me up." So, it for sure helped a ton. I have no idea what percentage of customers we converted. And they were a pretty large success, so probably a small fraction, but it definitely, like, made the initial days much easier. CHAD: Yeah. And then, like you said, COVID happened. BEN: COVID happened, yeah. I think we had been around for about a year when COVID hit. So, we were getting our feet underneath us. And we were already, like, the company was already growing at a pretty good rate, and we were feeling pretty good about it. I don't think we had quite hit ramen profitable, but we were probably pretty close or, like, flirting with it. Yeah, the business, like, I don't know, tripled or quadrupled in a matter of months. We had a few big customers that, like, just told everyone to start using Tuple. So, we had, like, thousands and thousands of new users kind of immediately. So, it was a crazy time. Everything melted, of course. We hadn't quite engineered for that much scale. We had a really rough day or so as we scrambled, but fortunately, we got things under control. And then had this, like, very nice tailwind. Because we started the company assuming that remote work would grow. We assumed that there would be more remote developers every year. And, you know, it's probably maybe 5% of dev jobs are remote or maybe even less, but we expect to see this number creeping up. We don't think that trend will reverse. And so, COVID just, like, it just yanked it, you know, a decade in the future. CHAD: You haven't tripled or quadrupled your team size, have you? BEN: No. Well, I mean, I guess, I mean, we started as 3, and now we're 11, so kind of. CHAD: [laughs] Yeah, that's true. BEN: Expenses have not grown as fast as revenue, fortunately. CHAD: That's good. That's basically what I was asking [laughs]. BEN: Yeah, yeah. We're still a pretty small team, actually. We have only, like, four or five full-time engineers on the team at the moment, which is kind of wild because we are now, you know, we have three platforms to support: Linux, Windows, and Mac. It's a pretty complicated app doing, like, real-time streaming of audio, webcams, desktops, caring about OS-level intricacies. So, I think we will be hiring more people soon, although we haven't said that for a long time. We sort of have always had a bit of a hire-slow mentality to try to get the right team members and, like, feel a real pain before we hire someone into it. But we have been getting a bit more aggressive with hiring lately. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate Tuple. I installed it when I first started working here at thoughtbot. And we have random pairings with everyone across the company. So, I'll randomly get to meet someone halfway across the world who's working on similar projects. And I think they really enjoy that I have a tool they like working to share what they're working on. So, I want to thank you for that. And I'm curious about when you really started to scale during COVID, what were some of the technology architecture trade-offs you came across, and where did you land with it? BEN: Well, we got fairly...I don't know if it was lucky, but we...for a long time, for years, even through COVID, maybe the first four years of the company, all Tuple calls were purely peer-to-peer. And there was no server that we owned intermediating things. This was, like, kind of one of the keys of, like, not having expenses. The scale of revenue was we could have lots more calls happen. And it wouldn't cost us bandwidth or server capacity. To this day, still, for any calls with three or fewer participants, they're purely peer-to-peer. And this is nice for latency purposes because it just...we can find the most direct path to the internet between two people. It's also nice from our cost perspective because we don't need to pay to send that data. And that was hugely useful as call volume went up immensely. Didn't have to worry too much about server load and didn't have to worry too much about bandwidth costs. CHAD: Today, is there a central service that makes the initial connection for people? BEN: Yes, yeah, yeah. So, there is a signaling server. So, when you launch the app, you sign in, and you see, like, oh, which of my co-workers are online? So, there is actually a Rails app that handles that, actually, increasingly less the Rails app. We have now...I think it's a Go service that actually manages all those. I'm further and further from the code every year. Some of the technical questions might be a little bit beyond me, or I might have slightly out-of-date info. But back to the architecture question for a second, we did a pretty big refactor when we decided to go from just being a Mac client to supporting other platforms, where we split out a cross-platform real-time communication engine written in C++ so that we could use that for all of the heavy lifting, all the managing of the connections, and the tricky bandwidth estimation, and all this stuff, and use that across different platforms. And so, today, you have the cross-platform engine, and then on top of that is a, like, a less specific layer for each of the operating systems that we support. CHAD: So, you mentioned you're less and less in the code these days. So, what do you spend your time doing then? BEN: It's a mix of things. These days, it's basically mostly -- CHAD: Just cocktails on the beach, right? BEN: Cocktails, yes [laughs], cocktails on the beach, appearing on podcasts trying to sound important and impressive, yeah. Mostly product work. So, right before this, I just got off a call with some folks from The Browser Company. They are some of our first alpha users for our new Windows clients. So, I hopped on the call with them and, like, watched three of them install the product and inevitably run into some bugs. And, you know, chatted through those with the engineer that was working on it, prioritized some stuff, made some decisions about what's coming up next, and what we're going to ignore. So, mostly product work these days. For the first five years of the company, I was CEO, so I was doing kind of everything: marketing, and also hiring, and also product. About two months ago, I stepped down as CEO, and one of my other co-founders, Spencer, stepped up. And so, now my focus has narrowed to be mostly just product stuff and much less on the marketing or hiring side. VICTORIA: Yeah, you mentioned that it was a little more comfortable to be an employee than to be a founder. I don't know if you could say more about that because, certainly, a lot of engineers are smart enough and capable enough to run their own company. But what really informed your choice there, and do you regret it? [laughs] BEN: I definitely don't regret it. thoughtbot was a close second in terms of wonderful professional experiences. But running my own thing has been the most interesting professional thing I've done by a big margin. It has also been more stressful. And, Chad, I don't know if you remember, I think, like, maybe eight years ago, you tweeted something like, if you want to sleep well at night, and, like, value that, like, peace of mind, like, don't start a company or something. I have experienced that. CHAD: [laughs] BEN: A lot more, yeah, like waking up in the middle of the night worrying about things. It feels a little bit like the highs are higher; the lows are lower. Being an employee somewhere, it's like, if this company fails, I know I can go get another job, right? Like, you're a developer. You're extremely employable. But as the owner of the company, if the company fails, like, a huge chunk of your net worth is gone. Like, this thing you poured your life into is gone. It's way more stressful and traumatic to have that happen, or have that threatened to be happening, or just imagine that happening. So, overall, I have found the trade-off to be totally worth it. It's awesome to make your own decisions and chart your own path. And when it works, it can work in a way that being a salaried employee can't. So, I'm happy with those trade-offs. But I think that is a good question for people to ask themselves as they consider doing something like this is, like: is that the kind of trade-off that you want to make? Because it has significant downsides for sure. WILL: I am a big fan of Tuple also. I love it. It [inaudible 10:08] easy, especially with remote work. You hit the jackpot with COVID and remote work, so kudos for that [laughs]. Was there anything...because I know from our previous companies, about over...hopefully a lot more of the good stuff than the bad stuff. But was there anything that you learned? Because you were at thoughtbot for seven years. Was there anything that you're like, oh my gosh, I learned that, and it's helped me till this day while I'm running my company? BEN: Yeah, quite a bit, actually. I think it'd be hard to tease apart exactly which lessons, but I do...so I ran Upcase for thoughtbot and also FormKeep. So, I got a chance to kind of run a small division of the company, while still being a normal employee and, like, having not much of that risk. And I think that was a really wonderful opportunity for me to, like, practice the skills that I was interested in. Just, like, how do you market a thing? How do you design a product and have it be good? How do you prioritize user feedback? There were a ton of lessons from those days that I feel like made me better at running our company when we actually took a shot at it. So, there were, like, the specific things that I learned by the work I was doing there. But then just, like, I mean, I think I am the programmer I am today because of, like, the weekly dev discussions that happened. Like, spending so much time with Joe Ferris and, like, trying to copy as much of his brain as possible, like, really, like, imprinted on me as, like, a programmer. And also, just, like, a lot of the sort of cultural things from my time at thoughtbot of, like, you should be sharing the things you're learning. Like, writing blog posts is a great use of time. Like, doing open-source work is a great use of time. And maybe you can't directly trace how doing, like, working in public or sharing information benefits the company. It's hard to, like, attribute it from a marketing sense. But if you sort of have faith that in the large, it's going to work out, it probably will. That feels like a thoughtbot lesson to me, and I think it has served us really well; where I recorded a weekly podcast for a long time called The Art of Product. I'm recording a new podcast called Hackers Incorporated with Adam Wathan of Tailwind fame. And I don't ever think, like, hmm, how many new leads do we think we get per episode, and how many hours has that taken? What's the ROI? I just have this sort of reflex that I developed from thoughtbot time of, like, you should be putting stuff out there, or you should be giving back. You should help other people. And that will probably help your business and make it work in the long term. CHAD: That's a good lesson [laughs]. One of the other things, you know, while you were a host of Giant Robots, you were the first host. I remember, you know, encouraging you to be the first host, and I think we talked about that in one of the episodes along the way. But we also transitioned the format a little bit, especially as you started to work on products here; you know, it was more about the building of those products and following along with those. And one of the things that sort of half-jokingly defined, I think, your impact on a lot of products was pricing, experimenting with pricing, learning about pricing, increasing prices more than people were maybe comfortable doing so. How has that worked out with Tuple, pricing in particular? BEN: It's really hard to say. It's hard to know what, like, the other path would have been through the world-. We sort of decided from, like, the early days that we wanted to have, like, a fairly premium price. Like, we wanted to be the product that was really good and was, like, a little bit annoyingly expensive, but you still paid for it because it felt worth it. And I think people could debate in both directions whether we nailed that or not. We have had a price increase that we ended up rolling back. We went, like, a little too far one time and said, "You know what? I think we're a little bit over," and we reverted that. But I would say even today, we are still a fairly pricey product. I mean, I'm pretty happy with how the company has done. I can't prove to you that, like, if the price were half what it is, we would have, you know, better success or not. CHAD: I think it'd be very hard to make the argument that if it was half that, you would have double the number of customers. BEN: Yeah, that's probably not true. CHAD: Not with the customers that you have, who are companies that will pay for products that they use as much as Tuple. BEN: Yeah, I'm happy serving the kind of companies, and they end up being mostly tech companies that really value developer happiness. When their developers come to them and they say, "We don't want to pair over Zoom. We like this thing. It's better. It feels nicer to use," they say, "Okay," and they buy the tool for them. There are places where that's not the case. And they say, "We already have a thing that does screen sharing. You're not allowed to buy this." We don't invest a lot of time trying to sell to those people or convince them that they're wrong. And I'm pretty happy serving sort of the first group. CHAD: So, you've mentioned that you've still been podcasting. To be honest, I didn't realize you were starting something new. Is it live now? BEN: It is live now, yeah. CHAD: Awesome. Where can people find that? BEN: hackersincorporated.com. It's about the transition from developer to founder, which is kind of what we've been touching on here. Yeah, hopefully, the audience is developers who want to start something or have started something who are maybe a little bit further behind progression-wise. And it's kind of, like, I have some lessons, and Adam has some lessons, and, you know, we don't think that we're experts. But sometimes it's useful to just hear, like, two people's story and sort of see, like, what seemingly has worked for them. So, we've been trying to share things there. And I think people will find it useful. VICTORIA: I was going to ask you for a lesson, maybe give us a little sample about how would you advise someone who's built a product and wants to market it, and it's targeted towards developers since you mentioned that previously as well. BEN: Yeah, in a way, the question already contains a problem. It's like, oh, I built the product; now how do I market it? It's a little bit indicative of a very common failure mode for developers, which is that. They sort of assume, okay, after you make the product, you then figure out how you're going to market it. And marketing is sort of a thing you layer on later on when you realize that just, like, throwing it on Twitter or Product Hunt didn't really work. When we started building Tuple, I was out there marketing it already. So, I had two co-founders, so this is a luxury I had. My two co-founders were writing code, and I was out doing stuff. I was recording podcasts. I was tweeting about things. I was making videos. I was giving conference talks. And I was getting people to hear about our product well before it was done. In fact, I was even selling it. I was taking pre-orders for annual subscriptions to the app while it was still vaporware. So, I would say, like, you basically can't start marketing too early. If you start marketing early and no one really cares, well, then you don't really have to build it probably. I would actually even go a little further and say, like, I started marketing Tuple before we had a product available. But in reality, I started marketing Tuple seven or so years before that when I started publishing things through thoughtbot. It's like when I was traveling around giving talks about Ruby, and when I was making screencasts about Vim, and when I was running Upcase, I was, over time, building an audience. And that audience was useful for thoughtbot, and it also was useful for me so that when I left, I had something like 10,000 Twitter followers or something, a few thousand people on our mailing list. But there were a lot of developers that already sort of knew me and trusted me to make fairly good things. And so, when I said, "Hey, I've made a new thing, and it's for you," I really benefited from those years of making useful content and trying to be useful on the internet. And in the early days, we had people sign up, and they would say, "I don't even really think I'm going to use this. But I've learned so much from you over the years that I want to support you, so I'm going to pay for a subscription." VICTORIA: I like your answer because I think the same thing when people ask me, like, because I am an organizer for Women Who Code, and I know all these great people from showing up for years in person months over months. And so, then people will ask, "Oh, how do I recruit more women in my company?" I'm like, "Well, you got to start showing up [laughs] now and do that for a couple of years, and then maybe people will trust you," right? So, I really like that answer. WILL: How has your relationship with Chad continued to grow since you left? Because seven years at the company is a lot. And it seems like you're still on really, really good terms, and you're still friends. And I know that doesn't happen at every company. BEN: I mean, it was tough deciding to leave. I think, like, both of us felt pretty sad about it. That was the longest I'd ever worked anywhere, and I really enjoyed the experience. So, I think it was tough on both sides, honestly. But we haven't kept in that much touch since then. I think we've emailed a handful of times here and there. We're both sociable people, and we sort of get each other. And there's a long history there. So, I think it's just easy for us to kind of drop back into a friendly vibe is sort of how I feel about it. CHAD: Yeah. And the way I explain it to people, you know, when you're leading a company, which Ben and I both are, you put a lot of energy into that and to the people who are on that team. If you're doing things right, there's not really hard feelings when someone leaves. But you need to put in a lot of effort to keep in touch with people outside of the company and a lot of energy. And, to be honest, I don't necessarily do as good a job with that as I would like because it's a little bit higher priority to maintain relationships with them, the people who are still at thoughtbot and who are joining. BEN: What you're saying is I'm dead to you [laughter]. That's CEO, for you're dead to me. CHAD: No. It's just...no hard feelings. BEN: Totally. CHAD: I think one of the things that has been great about the show over the years is that we haven't been afraid to change the format, which I think has been important to keeping it going. So, there is sort of; in fact, the website now is organized into seasons. And I went back and re-categorized all the episodes into seasons. And when the seasons were made up of, like, sort of the format of the show or particular hosts...when we started, it was just an interview show, and it was largely technical topics. And then we started The Bike Shed, and the technical topics sort of moved over there. But it also went with your interests more under the product and business side. Then you started working on products at thoughtbot, so it started to go even more in that. And I think Chris joined you on the show, and that was sort of all about those topics. BEN: Yeah, that makes sense. I think if you don't let the hosts kind of follow their interests, they're going to probably burn out on the thing. It's not fun to force yourself, I think, to record a podcast. CHAD: Yeah. And then when you left, you know, I took over hosting and hosted by myself for a while, went back to the interview format, but then was joined by Lindsey for a little while. We experimented with a few different things: one, interviews, but then we did a whole, just under a year, where we followed along with three companies. And each month, we would have an interview episode where we talked to them, all three companies, about the same topic. And then, we also did an episode with just Lindsey and I talking about that topic and about what we learned from the startup companies that we were following along with for the year. And now we're back to interview freeform, different guests, different topics. It seems like we're going to stick with that for a little while. But, obviously, as Will and Victoria have said, like, we'll probably change it again in some way, you know, a year, two years, three years from now. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I'm definitely bringing my interest around DevOps and platform engineering, so you'll see more guests who have that focus in their background. And with that, sometimes my interview style is more; how do I ask a question that I can't read from your developer docs and that I might not understand the answer to? [laughs] That's kind of where I like to go with it. So yeah, I'm really excited about...it's probably one of my favorite parts of my job here at thoughtbot because I get to meet so many interesting people. And, hopefully, that's interesting to everyone else [laughs] and our guests, yeah. BEN: Totally. Well, I dramatically underestimated how awesome it would be to meet all kinds of cool people in the industry when I started the podcast. I didn't truly connect in my head, like, wait a second, if I have a 45-minute conversation with, like, a lot of prominent, awesome people in our field, that's going to be really interesting and useful for me. So, I think, yeah, it's nice to be in the hosting seat. VICTORIA: And it's so surprising how I'll meet someone at a conference, and I'll invite them onto the podcast. And the way it winds up is that whatever we're talking about on the show is directly relevant to what I'm working on or a problem that I have. It's been incredible. And I really appreciate you for coming back for our 500th Episode here. CHAD: Ben, thanks very much again for joining us, and congratulations on all the success with Tuple. And I wish you the best. BEN: Thank you so much. Thanks for being a continuing customer. I really appreciate it. CHAD: Next, we caught up with Chris Toomey, who had a run as co-host of the show with Ben throughout 2016. CHRIS: Hi there. Thanks for having me. So, we're talking with all of the past hosts. I know you joined the show, and you were on it with Ben. And then you moved over to The Bike Shed, right? CHRIS: Yeah. So, I had co-hosted with Ben for about six months. And then I think I was transitioning off of Upcase, and so that ended sort of the Giant Robots “let's talk about business” podcast tour for me. And then, I went back to consulting for a while. And, at some point, after Derek Prior had left, I took over as the host of The Bike Shed. So, I think there was probably, like, a year and a half, two-year gap in between the various hostings. CHAD: Are you doing any podcasting now? CHRIS: I'm not, and I miss it. It was a lot of fun. It was, I think, an ideal medium for me. I'm not as good at writing. I tend to over-edit and overthink. But when you get me on a podcast, I just start to say what's in my head, and I tend to not hate it after the fact. So [chuckles], that combination I found to be somewhat perfect for me. But yeah, lacking that in my current day-to-day. CHAD: Well, what's been taking up your time since you left? CHRIS: I had decided it was time to sort of go exploring, try and maybe join a startup, that sort of thing. I was sort of called in that direction. So, just after I left thoughtbot, I did a little bit of freelancing, but that was mostly to sort of keep the lights on and start to connect with folks and see if there might be an opportunity out there. I was able to connect with a former thoughtbot client, Sam Zimmerman, who was looking to start something as well. And so, we put our act together and formed a company called Sagewell, which was trying to build a digital financial platform for seniors, which is a whole bunch of different complicated things to try and string together. So, that was a wonderful experience. I was CTO of that organization. And I think that ran for about two and a half years. Unfortunately, Sagewell couldn't quite find the right sort of sticking point and, unfortunately, shut down a little bit earlier in this year. But that was, I would say, the lion's share of what I have done since leaving thoughtbot, really wonderful experience, got to learn a ton about all of the different aspects of building a startup. And I think somewhat pointedly learned that, like, it's messy, but I think I do like this startup world. So, since leaving Sagewell, I've now joined a company called August Health, which has a couple of ex-thoughtboters there as well. And August is post their Series A. They're a little bit further along in their journey. So, it was sort of a nice continuation of the startup experience, getting to see a company a little bit further on but still with lots of the good type of problems, lots of code to write, lots of product to build. So, excited to be joining them. And yeah, that's mostly what's taking up my time these days. CHAD: So, I know at Sagewell, you made a lot of technical architecture, team decisions. It was Rails in the backend, Svelte in the frontend, if I'm not mistaken. CHRIS: Yep, that's correct. CHAD: You know, hindsight is always 2020. Is there anything you learned along the way, or given how things ended up, that you would do differently? CHRIS: Sure. I was really happy with the tech stack that we were able to put together. Svelte was probably the most out there of the choices, I would say, but even that, it was sort of relegated to the frontend. And so, it was a little bit novel for folks coming into the codebase. Most folks had worked in React before but didn't know Svelte. They were able to pick it up pretty quickly. But Inertia.js was actually the core sort of architecture of the app, sort of connected the frontend and the backend, and really allowed us to move incredibly quickly. And I was very, very happy with that decision. We even ended up building our mobile applications, both for iOS and Android. So, we had native apps in both of the stores, but the apps were basically wrappers around the Rails application with a technology similar to Turbolinks native–if folks are familiar with that so, sort of a WebView layer but with some native interactions where you want. And so, like, we introduced a native login screen on both platforms so that we could do biometric login and that sort of thing. But at the end of the day, most of the screens in the app didn't need to be differentiated between a truly native mobile app and what like, mobile WebView would look like. So, we leaned into that. And it was incredible just how much we were able to do with that stack and how quickly we were able to move, and also how confidently we were able to move, which was really a nice thing. Having the deep integration between the backend and the frontend really allowed a very small team to get a lot done in a short time. CHAD: Does that code live on in any capacity? CHRIS: No. CHAD: Oh. How does that make you feel? [chuckles] CHRIS: It makes me feel very sad, I will say. That said, I mean, at the end of the day, code is in service of a business. And so, like, the code...there are, I think, probably a couple of things that we might be able to extract and share. There were some interesting...we did some weird stuff with the serializers and some, like, TypeScript type generation on the frontend that was somewhat novel. But at the end of the day, you know, code is in service of a business, and, unfortunately, the business is not continuing on. So, the code in the abstract is...it's more, you know, the journey that we had along the way and the friends we made and whatnot. But I think, for me, sort of the learnings of I really appreciate this architecture and will absolutely bring it to any new projects that I'm building from, you know, greenfield moving forward. VICTORIA: I'm curious what it was like to go from being a consultant to being a big player in a startup and being responsible for the business and the technology. How did that feel for you? CHRIS: I would say somewhat natural. I think the consulting experience really lent well to trying to think about not just the technical ramifications but, you know, what's the business impact? How do we structure a backlog and communicate about what features we want to build in what order? How do we, you know, scope a minimal MVP? All those sorts of things were, I think, really useful in allowing me to sort of help shape the direction of the company and be as productive of an engineering team as we could be. CHAD: A lot of the projects you worked on at thoughtbot were if not for startups, helping to launch new products. And then, a lot of the work you did at thoughtbot, too, was on Upcase, which was very much building a business. CHRIS: Yes. I definitely find myself drawn in that direction, and part of like, as I mentioned, I seem to be inclined towards this startup world. And I think it's that, like, the intersection between tech and business is sort of my sweet spot. I work with a lot of developers who are really interested in getting sort of deeper into the technical layers, or Docker and Kubernetes and orchestration. And I always find myself a little bit resistant to those. I'm like, I mean, whatever. Let's just...let's get something out there so that we can get users on it. And I am so drawn to that side, you know, you need both types of developers critically. I definitely find myself drawn to that business side a little bit more than many of the folks that I work with, and helping to bridge that gap and communicate about requirements and all those sort of things. So, definitely, the experience as a consultant really informed that and helped me have sort of a vocabulary and a comfort in those sort of conversations. WILL: How did Upcase come about? Because I know I've talked to numerous people who have gone through Upcase. I actually went through it, and I learned a ton. So, how did that come about? CHRIS: I think that was a dream in Ben Orenstein's eye. It started as thoughtbot Learn many, many years ago. There was a handful of workshops that had been recorded. And so, there were the video recordings of those workshops that thoughtbot used to provide in person. Ben collected those together and made them sort of an offering on the internet. I think Chad, you, and I were on some podcast episode where you sort of talked about the pricing models over time and how that went from, like, a high dollar one-time download to, like, $99 a month to $29 a month, and now Upcase is free. And so, it sort of went on this long journey. But it was an interesting exploration of building a content business of sort of really leaning into the thoughtbot ideal of sharing as much information as possible, and took a couple of different shapes over time. There was the weekly iterations of the video series that would come out each week, as well as the, like, longer format trails, and eventually some exercises and whatnot, but very much an organic sort of evolving thing that started as just a handful of videos and then became much more of a complete platform. I think I hit the high points there. But, Chad, does that all sound accurate to you? CHAD: Yeah, I led the transition from our workshops to Learn, which brought everything together. And then, I stepped away as product manager, and Ben took it the next step to Upcase and really productized it into a SaaS sort of monthly recurring billing model and took it over from there. But it still exists, and a lot of the stuff there is still really good [laughs]. CHRIS: Yeah, I remain deeply proud of lots of the videos on that platform. And I'm very glad that they are still out there, and I can point folks at them. VICTORIA: I love that idea that you said about trying to get as much content out there as possible or, like, really overcommunicate. I'm curious if that's also stayed with you as you've moved on to startups, about just trying to get that influence over, like, what you're doing and how you're promoting your work continues. CHRIS: I will say one of the experiences that really sticks with me is I had followed thoughtbot for a while before I actually joined. So, I was reading the blog, and I was listening to the podcasts and was really informing a lot of how I thought about building software. And I was so excited when I joined thoughtbot to, like, finally see behind the curtain and see, like, okay, so, what are the insider secrets? And I was equal parts let down...actually, not equal parts. I was a little bit let down but then also sort of invigorated to see, like, no, no, it's all out there. It's like, the blog and the open-source repos and those sort of...that really is the documentation of how thoughtbot thinks about and builds software. So, that was really foundational for me. But at the same time, I also saw sort of the complexity of it and how much effort goes into it, you know, investment time Fridays, and those sort of things. Like, a thoughtbot blog post is not a trivial thing to put up into the world. So many different people were collaborating and working on it. And so, I've simultaneously loved the sharing, and where sharing makes sense, I've tried to do that. But I also recognize the deep cost. And I think for thoughtbot, it's always made sense because it's been such a great mechanism for getting the thoughtbot name out there and for getting clients and for hiring developers. At startups, it becomes a really interesting trade-off of, should we be allocating time to building up sort of a brand in the name and getting ourselves, you know, getting information out there? Versus, should we be just focusing on the work at hand? And most organizations that I've worked with have bias towards certainly less sharing than thoughtbot, but just not much at all. Often, I'll see folks like, "Hey, maybe we should start a blog." And I'm like, "Okay, let's just talk about how much effort that [laughs] actually looks like." And I wonder if I'm actually overcorrected on that, having seen, you know, the high bar that thoughtbot set. CHAD: I think it's a struggle. This is one of my [laughs] hot topics or spiels that I can go on. You know, in most other companies, that kind of thing only helps...it only helps in hiring or the people being fulfilled in the work. But at most companies, your product is not about that; that's not what your business is. So, having a more fulfilled engineering team who is easier to hire—don't get me wrong, there are advantages to that—but it doesn't also help with your sales. CHRIS: Yes. CHAD: And at thoughtbot, our business is totally aligned with the people and what we do as designers and developers. And so, when we improve one, we improve the other, and that's why we can make it work. That is marketing for the product that we actually sell, and that's not the case at a SaaS software company. CHRIS: Yes, yeah, definitely. That resonates strongly. I will say, though, on the hiring side, hiring at thoughtbot was always...there was...I won't say a cheat code, but just if someone were to come into the hiring process and they're like, "Oh yeah, I've read the blog. I listen to the podcast," this and that, immediately, you were able to skip so much further into the conversation and be like, "Okay, what do you agree with? What do you disagree with? Like, let's talk." But there's so much. Because thoughtbot put so much out there, it was easy to say, like, "Hey, this is who we are. Do you like that? Is that your vibe?" Whereas most engineering organizations don't have that. And so, you have to try and, like, build that in the context of, you know, a couple of hour conversations in an interview, and it's just so much harder to do. So, again, I've leaned in the direction of not going anywhere near thoughtbot's level of sharing. But the downside when you are hiring, you're like, oh, this is going to be trickier. CHAD: Yeah. One of the moments that stands out in my mind, and maybe I've told this story before on the podcast, but I'll tell it again. When we opened the New York studio, it was really fast growing and was doing a lot of hiring. And one of the people who had just joined the company a couple of weeks before was doing an interview and rejected the person was able to write an articulate reason why. But it all boiled down to this person is, you know, not a fit for thoughtbot. Based on what they were able to describe, I felt very confident with the ability or with the fact that they were able to make that call, even though they had been here only a couple of weeks, because they joined knowing who we were, and what we stand for, and what our culture and our values are, and the way that we do things, and all that kind of thing. And so, yeah, that's definitely a huge benefit to us. VICTORIA: I've certainly enjoyed that as well, as someone who hires developers here and also in meeting new companies and organizations when they already know thoughtbot. That's really nice to have that reputation there, coming from my background—some really more scrappier startup kind of consulting agencies. But, you know, I wanted to talk a little bit more about your podcasting experience while you're here. So, I know you were on both The Bike Shed and Giant Robots. Which is the better podcast? [laughter] So, what's your...do you have, like, a favorite episode or favorite moment, or maybe, like, a little anecdote you can share from hosting? CHRIS: Well, I guess there's, like, three different eras for me in the podcasting. So, there's Giant Robots with Ben talking more about business stuff, and I think that was really useful. I think it was more of a forcing function on me because I sort of...Both Ben and I were coming on; we were giving honest, transparent summaries of our, like, MRR and stats and how things were growing, and acted as sort of an accountability backstop, which was super useful but also just kind of nerve-wracking. Then, when I joined the Bike Shed, the interviewing sequence that I did each week was just a new person that I was chatting with. And I sort of had to ramp them up on, hey, here's a quick summary on how to think about podcasting. Don't worry, it'll be great. Everybody have fun. But I was finding each of the guests. I was sort of finding a topic to talk about with them. So, that ended up being a lot more work. And then, the last three years chatting with Steph that was by far my favorite. There was just such a natural back-and-forth. It really was just capturing the conversations of two developers at thoughtbot and the questions we would ask each other as we hit something complicated in a piece of code or, "Oh, I saw this, you know, article about a new open-source repository. What do you think about that?" It was so much easier, so much more natural, and, frankly, a lot of fun to do that. And, two, I actually do have an answer to the favorite podcast episode, which is the first episode that Steph was ever on. It was before she actually joined as a co-host. But it was called “What I Believe About Software.” And it was just this really great, deep conversation about how we think about software. And a lot of it is very much, like, thoughtbot ideals, I would say. But yeah, Steph came in and just brought the heat in that first episode, and I remember just how enjoyable that experience was. And I was like, all right, let's see if I can get her to hang out a little bit more, and, thankfully, she was happy to join. WILL: What was your favorite position, I guess you can call it? Because you say you like the mixture of business and, you know, development. So, you've been in leadership as development director, CTO. You've been a web developer. You've been over content, like, with Upcase. What was your favorite position [inaudible 16:43] you were doing, and why was it your favorite? CHRIS: The development director role feels like sort of a cheating answer, but I think that would be my answer because it contained a handful of things within it. Like, as development director, I was still working on client projects three days a week. And then, one day a week was sort of allocated to the manager-type tasks, or having one-on-ones with my team sort of helping to think about strategy and whatnot. And then, ideally, still getting some amount of investment time, although the relative amounts of those always flexed a little bit. Because that one sort of encompassed different facets, I think that's going to be my answer. And I think, like, some of what drew me to consulting in the first place and kept me in that line of work for seven years was the variety, you know, different clients, as well as, even within thoughtbot, different modes of working in podcasts or video. Or there was a bootcamp that I taught, a session of Metis, which that was a whole other experience. And so, getting that variety was really interesting. And I think as sort of a tricky answer to your question, the development director role as a singular thing contained a multitude, and so I think that was the one that would stand out to me. It's also the most, you know, the one that I ended on, so [laughs] it might just be recency bias, but yeah. VICTORIA: Oh, I love that. Is there anything else that you would like to promote on the podcast today? CHRIS: No, although as you ask the question, I feel like I should, I don't know, make some things to promote, get back into some, I don't know, content generation or something like that. But for now, no. I'm, you know, diving into the startup life, and it's a wonderful and engrossing way to do work, but it does definitely take up a lot of my headspace. So, it's an interesting trade-off. But right now, I don't know; if folks are online and they want to say hi, most of my contact information is readily available. So, I would love to say hi to folks, anyone that listened in the past or, you know, has any thoughts in the now. Would love to connect with folks. But otherwise, yeah, thank you so much for having me on. CHAD: In 2017, I took over from Ben as solo host of the show but was joined by Lindsey Christainson as cohost in 2019. After some time away from thoughtbot, Lindsey is back with us and we sat down to catch up with her. VICTORIA: Why don't you tell me about your current role with thoughtbot? LINDSEY: I am currently supporting marketing and business development at thoughtbot, as well as working as a marketing consultant for thoughtbot clients. VICTORIA: Great. And I understand that you had worked with thoughtbot many years ago, and that's when you also came on as a co-host of Giant Robots. Is that right? LINDSEY: Yeah, a couple of years ago. I left thoughtbot in spring of 2021. And I forget how long my stint was as a co-host of Giant Robots, but over a year, maybe a year and a half, two years? CHAD: Yeah, I think that's right. I think you started in 2019. LINDSEY: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds right. And Chad and I were co-hosts, I think, similar to the setup today in which sometimes we hosted together, and sometimes we were conducting interviews separately. CHAD: And then we sort of introduced a second season, where we followed along with a batch of companies over the course of the entire season. And that was fun, and we learned a lot. And it was nice to have consistent guests. LINDSEY: Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I really liked that format. I don't know; they almost were, like, more than guests at that point. They were just like other co-hosts [laughs] that we could rely on week in, week out to check in with them as they're working on early-stage companies. So, every time we checked in with them, they usually had some new, exciting developments. WILL: I really like that idea. How did y'all come up with that? CHAD: I'm not sure. I think a few years before I had taken over hosting of the show, and I forget...my memory maybe is that I went to Lindsey and said, "You know, let's do something different." But I'm not sure. Does that match your memory, Lindsey? LINDSEY: Yeah, I think there were two main drivers; one was I think you were feeling like you were having similar conversations in the interviews every time. Like, you couldn't get to a certain depth because every time you were interviewing someone, you were doing, like, the, "Well, tell me your founding story." And, you know, how did you raise funding? It kind of got a little bit repetitive. And then, on the side, the few we had done together, I think we both really enjoyed. So, we were thinking, like, what's the format in which the two of us could co-host together more regularly? Because I'm a pleasure to talk to [laughter]. I think you were like, I need to talk to Lindsey more. [inaudible 3:13] VICTORIA: What is your hosting style? How would you describe your approach to hosting a podcast? LINDSEY: I mean, obviously, it's a podcast about products and business. I think as a marketer, I am, you know, drawn a lot to the marketing side, so tending to ask questions around go-to-market audience, users. That's always just, like, a particular interest of mine. But then also, like, the feelings. I love asking about the feelings of things, you know, how did it feel when you started? How did it feel when you made this tough decision? So, that's another thing I think I noticed in my interviews is asking about some of the emotions behind business decisions. VICTORIA: And I like hearing about how people felt at the time and then how they felt afterwards [laughs]. And, like, how people around them supported each other and that type of thing. That's really fun. I'm curious, too, from your marketing background and having to do with podcasts like; some founders, I think, get the advice to just start a podcast to start building a community. But I'm curious on your thoughts about, like, how does podcasting really play into, like, business and marketing development for products? LINDSEY: Oh yeah. It's become definitely, like, a standard channel in B2B these days. I feel like that it's pretty typical for a company to have a podcast as one way that they engage their audience and their users. In marketing, you're really vying for people's attention, and people's attention span is getting shorter and shorter. So, like, if you have an ad or a blog, you're getting, like, seconds, maybe minutes of someone's attention. And whereas something like a podcast offers a unique channel to have someone's undivided attention for, you know, 30 minutes, an hour, and if you're lucky, you know, checking back in week over week. So, it became a really popular method. That said, I think you're probably also seeing the market get saturated [laughs] with podcasts now, so some diminishing returns. And, you know, as always, kind of looking for, you know, what's the next way? What's the next thing that people are interested in in ways to capture their attention? CHAD: What is the next thing? LINDSEY: I don't know, back to micro-content? TikTok videos -- CHAD: Yeah, I was going to say TikTok, yeah. LINDSEY: Yeah, you know, 10-30 seconds, what can you communicate? VICTORIA: I see people live streaming on Twitch a lot for coding and developer products. LINDSEY: Yeah, I think we've seen some of that, too. We've been experimenting more at thoughtbot with live streaming as well. It's another interesting mechanism. But yeah, I don't know, it's interesting. It's another form of, like, community and how people engage with their communities. So, it's always evolving. It's always evolving, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes, people just do want to get in a room together, too, which is always interesting. WILL: What has been, in your experience, the good the bad? Like, how do you feel about the way that it has shifted? Because I think you started in, like, 2000, like, kind of earlier 2000, 2005, something around there. And it was totally different than now like you're saying. Because I feel like, you know, Channel 5 30-second ad, you know, with some of the marketing depending on what you're doing, to now to where you're, like, you're paying influencers to advertise your product, or you're doing an ad. Or it's more social media-driven and tech-driven. What has been your opinion and feelings on the way that it has grown and evolved? LINDSEY: Marketing, in general, yeah, I graduated college in 2005 and started my marketing career. And yeah, you could, like, actually get people to click on banner ads back then, which was pretty [inaudible 07:14] [laughs]. WILL: I forgot about banner ads [laughs]. LINDSEY: I don't know, yeah. I don't know. In order for myself to not just get too frustrated, I think I've got to, like, view it as a game kind of. What new things are we going to try? You know, what do we see work? But it can really depend. And I've always been in B2B side of things. And consumer, I'm sure, has its own kind of evolution around how people engage and how they consume content and byproducts. But in B2B, you know, it can really depend on industry too. You know, I'm working with a client right now in the senior living space, and they're really big in in-person conferences. So, that's how people consume, get a lot of their information and, make connections, and learn about new products. So, it's been interesting to work in an industry that what might be considered, like, a little bit more old-school channels are still effective. And then just thinking about how you weave in the new channels with the existing ones without ignoring them. They might get information in conferences, but they're still a modern human who will then, you know, search online to learn more, for example. VICTORIA: It reminds me of a phrase I like to say, which is that, like, technology never dies; you just have more of it. There's just more different options and more different ways to do things. And some people are always, you know, sometimes you have to be flexible and do everything. CHAD: So, tell us more about what you did in between...after you left thoughtbot, what did you do? LINDSEY: I was heading up B2B marketing for a company called Flywire, which is headquartered in Boston but is a global company now. And they were just kind of starting their B2B business unit, which, as I mentioned, B2B is my personal specialty. I had been connected to their CMO through the Boston startup community. And yeah, I was helping them kind of launch their go-to-market for B2B. The industries they were in before...they got their start in higher education and then expanded in healthcare and found a niche in luxury travel, and then we were figuring out the B2B piece. But yeah, I was there for about a year and a half. They actually went public the second week I was there, which was an interesting [laughs] experience. I knew they were, like, on that journey, but it was kind of funny to be there the second week, and people were, like, "Congrats." And I was like, "Well, I definitely didn't have anything to do with it because I just finished my onboarding, but thank you," [laughs]. CHAD: One of the things that really impressed me when you joined thoughtbot was the way in which you learned about who we were and really internalized that in a way where you were then able to pretty meaningfully understand our market, our positioning in the market, and come up with new strategies for us. I assume that's something you're good at in general [laughs]. How do you approach it? How did you approach it when you joined Flywire, for example? And how was it the same or different than how you approached thoughtbot? LINDSEY: Ooh, yeah, that's a good question. And I appreciate that comment because it's difficult. But I think, yeah, with any new organization that I'm joining, you know, I think starting out with your kind of mini-listening tour of your key stakeholders across, you know, the different departmental focuses to get a sense of, what are the challenges? What are the opportunities? It's actually like, you know, it's the SWOT analysis, kind of trying to fill in your own mind map of a SWOT analysis of where the company is. What are the major hurdles you're facing? Where are people trying to go? What have they tried that's worked? What have they tried that's failed? But then, like, I think for the culture component, I think a part of that maybe is, like, feel, and maybe something that I do have a knack for. Again, maybe this is, like, you know, emotional intelligence quotient, where it's like, you know, but it's the company, you know, who is this company? What is important to them? How do they work and go about things? I know thoughtbot is certainly very unique, I think, in that arena in terms of being, like, a really value-driven company, and one where especially, like, marketing and business work is, like, distributed across teams in a really interesting way. You know, I'm sure the fact that it fascinated me and was something I could get passionate and get behind was something that also helped me understand it quickly. CHAD: I was excited that...or it was sort of a coincidence because I had reached out to you and without realizing that you had left Flywire. And Kelly, who had been doing a combined sales and marketing role, was going on parental leave. And so, it was fortuitous [laughs] that you were able to come back and help us and provide coverage, like, Kelly was out. LINDSEY: Yeah, it definitely felt like stars aligned moment, which, you know, I'm pretty woo-woo, so I believe in [laughter]...I believe in that kind of thing. You know, yeah, it was wild. It really did feel like your email came out of nowhere. And, you know, I mentioned it, obviously, to my partner and my friends. And they were like, "Oh, he definitely knows, like, that you left your last company." And I'm like, "I actually don't think he does [laughter]. I actually don't think he does." Yeah, and then we started chatting about me coming back to help. And it was great. thoughtbot makes it hard to work anywhere else [laughs]. So, I was happy to come back. I missed the team. CHAD: And one of the exciting things, and you've mentioned it, is you're not just doing marketing for thoughtbot now. We have started to offer your services to our clients. LINDSEY: Yeah, I'm super excited about this. And it's something I'd started thinking about. I had decided to take some time off between Flywire and my next thing and had started thinking about doing marketing, consulting. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking a lot about how thoughtbot does consulting and, you know, wanting to emulate something like that. So, I started back up at thoughtbot. That wasn't part of the plan. I was just going to, you know, fill in for Kelly and help with marketing things. But then, you know, a good opportunity arose to work on a client, and I was really excited. When, you know, Chad, you and I chatted through it, we came to the conclusion that this was something worth exploring under the, you know, thoughtbot umbrella. And it's been a really great experience so far. And we now have brought on another client now. And if you're listening and need early-stage B2B marketing support, reach out to email@example.com. CHAD: Definitely. And Lindsey is pretty good, so you're going to like it [laughs]. LINDSEY: Yeah, you're going to like the way you look. WILL: Yeah, definitely. Because I can even feel your presence here, you know, coming back. Because even like, you know, the market where it's at now and some of the suggestions that, you know, you've been helping us. For example, like, I do a lot of React Native, and you're like, "Hey, you know, blog posts have done a lot of traction, you know, let's get some more blog posts out in the market to help with the traffic and everything." So, the question I have with that is, like, thank you for even suggesting that because it's, like, those little things that you don't even think about. It's like, oh yeah, blog posts, that's an easy transition to help the market, clients, things like that. But with the market the way it is, what has been your experience working during this time with the market? I don't know if you want to call it struggling, but whatever you want to call it that, it's doing [laughs]. LINDSEY: Yeah, I mean, the economy is difficult now. We also went through a really tough spot when I was here last time. During COVID, you know, we faced a major company challenge. And, I mean, I'll let Chad speak to it, but I would imagine it's probably one of the bigger, like, economic inflection points that you faced. Would you say that? CHAD: Yeah, definitely. The thing about it that made it worse was how quickly it happened. You know, it was something that you didn't see coming, and then, you know, about 40% of our business went away in a single month. That's the kind of thing that was a real shock to the system. I think the thing that made it difficult, too, was then the aspects of COVID, where we were no longer able to go into our studios. We were all working remotely. We were isolated from each other. And so, that made executing on what needed to be done in order to make the company survive additionally challenging. LINDSEY: Yeah, so I think, like, going through that experience, also, and seeing how the team and the leadership team rallied together to get through it. And then, you know, ultimately, I think 2021 and 2022 have, like, really good years. That was a really positive experience. And something I'll definitely take with me for a while is just, like, keeping a cool head and just knowing you have, like, really smart, talented folks with you working on it and that you can get through it. And just, like, doing some, I mean, we relied on what we did best, which was, like, design thinking, using design exercise to think about, like, how we might re-organize the company, or what other services we might try launching, or how might we re-package, you know, larger services into smaller more palatable services when people have, like, kind of tighter purse strings. So, that was, like, a great educational experience, and I think something we just continue to do now: be open to change, be open to changing how we package services, what clients we go after, and coming at it with, like, an agile, experimental mindset and try to find out what works. VICTORIA: I really appreciate that. And it aligns now with the new service we've developed around you and the marketing that you provide. And I'm curious because I've had founders come up to me who say they need help with marketing or they need to, like, figure out their marketing plans. So, say you've met a founder who has this question, like, what questions do you ask them to kind of narrow down what it is they really need and really want to get out of a marketing plan? LINDSEY: I've been thinking about this a lot recently. And, like, obviously, I see other marketing leaders in the market. Marketers like to talk about what they do on LinkedIn [laughs], so I get to...I read a lot about different people's approaches to this. And some people kind of go in and are like, okay, this is what you need. This is how we're going to do it, and they start executing on it. And I really do take a very collaborative approach with founders. I think they're, especially in early stage, they're your most important asset in a way, and a lot of their intuition around the market and the business, you know, it's gotten them to where they're at. And so, I think starting from the point of, like, taking what they view as priorities or challenges, and then helping them better explore them or understand them with my own marketing experience and expertise, to