Podcast appearances and mentions of joe come

The first episode of SPOILERS' DIGEST- Vanessa guesses what happens in the 80's hit Back to the Future. She's mostly wrong. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Joe & Evelyn Browning left their Arizona life to travel in a new mini lite-RV and describes the sights and sounds of the voyage. The first episode recorded while traveling. If you’re handy, you might be a guess on the cast. Come and ride the roads with the Retired Roaders. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/retired-roaders/message

The purchase process for first-time e-commerce buyers is rarely stress-free. Today's guest is here to take us through his acquisition from inception to completion. He openly talks about the vetting, the financing, the due diligence process, and the seller/buyer relationship. We also discuss the wins and losses, and how they played off on each other in the six to eight months after the purchase. Finding himself near the end of his career, Rocky Cleborne was looking for something else. As an almost-retiree from the automobile industry, he decided to purchase his first business. Rocky reviewed numerous businesses and performed extensive vettings of fourteen of them before finally deciding on an e-commerce jewelry business. As we've mentioned before, surrounding yourself with smart, experienced people and being the right type of person yourself are often the keys to successful acquisitions. The highest offer is not always necessarily the one that wins the bid for the business. Episode Highlights: The vetting process Rocky went through before deciding on Novadab. How many offers he made out of the 14 businesses he considered buying. How using Centurica services helped Rocky through the process. The SBA lending process and how much Rocky had to come up with in his deal. Rocky's business model and where his e-commerce products are being sold (hint, it's not all Amazon). Mistakes he made in the early days of the transition to e-commerce and sourcing. The customer experience Novadab provides for their 12,000 orders each month. Rocky's email marketing strategy. The business's growth percentage since the purchase. How he's formed a partnership with a surprising partner and how that partnership is fueling growth both in Novadab and beyond. The losses and wins Rocky experienced during the transition process. Transcription: Mark: Joe over the past several years I have sat down and had coffee with people who are looking to buy their 1st online business and we talk a lot about what does that process like. How do you go about finding that right opportunity? How do you vet that opportunity? And then even afterwards what does it look like after you do the acquisition and are spending the 1st several months in there what you would be expecting as far as wins and losses. I love it when we have the opportunity to bring somebody on who has gone through this process and they're totally an open book willing to share what they did. You had Rocky on who you sold a business to to talk just about that. Joe: Yeah and actually I wasn't the broker. I had Rocky make offers on several of my listings and he wasn't the winning bid or the chosen one and eventually he bought one from Amanda and he openly talks about that process of buying the business, the successes that he's had, the financing that he did, some of his big wins and some of his big losses, and how they sort of played off on each other in the six to eight months after he bought the business. Mark: Well, it's great. Now we also have a really exciting announcement here. We had somebody guess one of the movie quotes from the intro Mike K. right? It was Mike K. Joe: Come on now. Mark: I can't pronounce his last name. I'm sorry Mike. Chris, our producer is in here with me; what's his name, Chris? Chris: Koregnept. Mark: Koregnept. Alright, so Mike Koregnept Big Short from the very first intro that we ran. Thank you, Mike, for doing that and hey guys if you're listening and you know the quote send us an e-mail. C'mon send it over. Let us know where it's from and if you use Google tell us; be honest because that's the only way I can ever guess any of these movie intros. I'm not going to at game at all. Joe: Let's do one more thing though Mike I want you to call me, leave me a voicemail message with the proper pronunciation of your last name and we'll air in on one of the upcoming episodes. Mark: That's a really good idea. So let's get back over to the actual topic let's talk about Rocky and the process that he used to acquire his business. Joe: I'm recording; you can see that in the corner. Hey folks, it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and this is another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast and yes you heard me say I'm recording right at the beginning because I have Rocky on the line with me. Rocky pronounce your last name for me; go ahead. Rocky: It's Cleborne. Joe: Cleborne; so easy, spelled funny but so easy. Rocky and I have talked twice in the last week because yes I recorded the best podcast ever last Tuesday with Rocky but I didn't actually do what Rocky? Rocky: Hit the record button. Joe: Exactly! So we're back at it. In the podcast world, everybody has a story of at least one time forgetting to hit record and it happened to us last week. So I'm glad you're back; glad you had time but I think it's appropriate that we didn't do it two minutes after I realized when we were wrapping up that I forgot to hit record. Okay, enough babbling. Rocky Cleborne tell us about yourself; who are you what's your background? Rocky: Well, my name is Rocky Cleborne and after I graduated from college I ended up starting some businesses that I turned around and then sold. I got into the automobile business in the late '90s and became a general manager of a number of large automobile dealerships; some of which were selling over 600 cars a month. I've been doing that for over 20 years and then decided that I wanted to retire but knew that I didn't want to just sit around and do nothing because that's not who I am and so I decided that I would buy a business. At first, I looked at brick and mortar businesses and then I said I wanted to be more cutting edge than that and decided that I would look at e-commerce businesses. I did some vetting and some research. I came across Quiet Light Brokerage and the rest is history as they say. Joe: So you are an almost retiree that is in the automobile industry which is about as old school as it gets and you do what? You buy an e-commerce business and it's not only that but it's a jewelry e-commerce business. Rocky: Yes indeed and the company is called Novadab and I wanted to end up getting a business that had higher margins and that the jewelry business definitely has and I wanted to be able to end up operating the business with my daughter and so she has joined me in this venture and we really, really enjoy it very, very much. Joe: Well, good. So I want to take your life experience in terms of being in business and talk a little bit about the search process that you went through, the vetting process because I know you looked at a lot of deals; we looked at a few together, and then your financing; how you decided to pay for this business and talk a little bit about some of the wins and losses you've had along the way. But before I do that folks I want to say that you've heard me say it, you've heard Mark say it in the past that who you are as a buyer and how you behave as a buyer makes a huge difference in terms of getting the deal done not just with the broker. Well we're here to help both sides of the transaction no matter what and sometimes it does matter in terms of the likability of you the buyer because if we're in a multiple offer situation our client; the seller is going to say who do you like, what do you think, who are we going to get through due diligence with and all the way to closing, and they're going to say who do you think would be better to work with after closing in transition and training? And Rocky is that type of guy. You struck me … well, what you bought this last fall, in fall of 2018 and we've talked a few times before that and then lo and behold I hear you're under LOI and under contract with a deal that Amanda had and excited about it. I even got an e-mail from her and from the lender Stephen Speer about what a great guy you were; so good for you and folks this is what it takes some time. So again, alright Rocky tell us about your vetting process. How long did it take you to find Novadab and how many deals did you look at, and how many deals did you make an offer on? And I know you're going to come up with ballpark numbers because you probably looked at more than you can remember. Rocky: Well, that's true I did look at quite a number of them actually. I started the process February of last year and I looked at quite a few businesses. As a matter of fact, I did do some research and found out that I had actually in-depth researched over 14 businesses that I was trying to end up purchasing. I utilized a company called Centurica with Chris Yates. I actually did quite a bit of study for me because I learned early in life that you want to surround yourself with people that are knowledgeable of the businesses that you're looking to try to purchase and also know what you don't know and I certainly … and I was very, very glad to end up having Chris being part of this search process as well as helping me do the analysis because two heads are better than one and he provided me some great insight and as a matter of fact prevented me from … or didn't prevent me but certainly lend some insight as to why I wouldn't want to purchase certain businesses out there. So we did some due diligence together. I ultimately landed on Novadab and then through that same process and through a podcast I was introduced to Stephen Speer and Stephen really again if you want to surround yourself with really, really smart people that are hardworking and I give it back to you all at Quiet Light and also Stephen Speer and Chris Yates in guiding me to a purchase that ultimately I've been very, very happy with and have enjoyed as I say operating with my daughter. Joe: So you started in February 2018, when did you close on Novadab? Rocky: August 23rd. Joe: August 23rd, so just about eight months … no six months. Rocky: Six months. Joe: I always … I actually did this today, I talked to a buyer today and I said look man trying to find that perfect business is like looking for a needle in a haystack inside of a giant big ass haystack and he said absolutely. He's looked over 53 cases; he looked at 53 of our listings in the last I think probably 12 months, so a lot more than you've probably looked at. How many of the businesses that you looked at did you … you said you looked at 14 in depth; how many of those did you make offers on? Rocky: I actually only made offers on five of them and one of them actually was one of your offers where I was reaching for that brass rain if you will but because I hadn't been in the e-commerce business previously we felt that it wasn't something that we could end up doing and securing the financing ultimately with Stephen. So while I reached for it and wanted to try to do it I'm certainly glad that we ended up where we did in purchasing Novadab. Joe: Good. Alright so quickly and I don't mean to plug Centurica, we don't get any referral fees. They're not an advertiser but what I've talked about historically with Centurica is that once you're under a Letter Of Intent they will help you with due diligence. We give a great deal of information on our listings but no matter what you're going to want to dig deep. You're going to want to look at bank statements, vendor invoices, Amazon statements, credit card statements, all of that in due diligence and when you do an SBA deal like you did Rocky with Stephen at First Home Bank and they've got a 3rd party valuation team, they've got an underwriting team, and they're going to dig in and vet the business as well. So you've got lots of people that are helping but one of the things that Centurica did for you just to make sure if I understand it is that they didn't just help you with due diligence once under LOI, they helped you with the search process as well and it made sense in advance of making the offer and going under a Letter Of Intent; correct? Rocky: Yes, indeed they did. In fact, Chris and I took a look at a number of different businesses together and looked at the attributes, the positive things about the different businesses and how they might indeed tie into my skill set or not necessarily tie into my skill set. And by doing that he really helped guide me to purchasing a business that fit my skill set that I could then expand upon and ultimately grow the way that we actually have grown the business over the last six months. So he was involved from day one with the search for a business and really provided me that hand holding that when you're investing the kind of money that you invest in these businesses really gives you somebody to lean on and obtain incurred information. Joe: Cool. I want to get into the growth but let's hold off on that just for a moment because I do want to learn there. Stephen Speer of Bank United another great one that they're working with is Bruce Marks at Radius Bank for those listening. And if anyone listening has an amazing SBA lender please shoot me an e-mail at Joe@QuietLightBrokerage and make an introduction; the more the merrier. Bruce and Stephen though are top notch. I don't think you'd go wrong with them at all. Okay in regards to the SBA lending process we're not going to talk about the purchase price of the business here but generally, depending on the deal size the lenders are looking for something from 10 to 25% equity infusion and that can come from the buyer and the seller or from just the buyer. Rocky in purchasing this business how much percentage of the overall deal did you have to come up with? Rocky: I ended up coming out with approximately 20% of the overall deal including the inventory and there were some reasons behind that that I did not want to end up pledging my home is a security with the SBA which they looked to try to do and so in exchange for that I put up some additional equity in order to not have my home secure. And it was really quite interesting, the sellers also took back a note for 15% of the total deal and it was interesting in that when we did the interview as you mentioned previously on this podcast how important it really is to end up building a relationship with the seller. Everybody thinks that when they're a buyer that they're in the driver's seat and when you have as much demand for e-commerce businesses particularly the good e-commerce businesses that you really want to buy; you're the one that's being interviewed as a buyer to end up buying that business and you really should treat it as an interview because you are being interviewed by the seller. They've taken a lot of their hard work and really it's their baby if you will and they've owned it and brought it to where it is and now they're turning around and trusting you with it so you want to end up making a good impression and certainly during that interview process you want to make sure that you put your best foot forward. What ultimately happened for me is that I … like many others faced a situation where there were multiple offers on the business; mine was not the highest of offers, in fact, mine was about $50,000 less than the next offer. Joe: Wow. Rocky: He took my offer and it's great because the two of us are still talking with each other on a regular basis and in fact, we've formed another business that we could talk about later. Joe: Good for you, you found another business together in your retirement years. Rocky: Yes indeed. Joe: Crazy Rocky that's what I'm going to call you from now on. It's interesting being likable on those calls gets you … obviously, you got the deal $50,000 less than the highest bidder but also a 15% seller note. That's not standard. I think the highest I've seen and I've done a fair amount of SBA deals is 10% so good for you. This total 35% equity infusion is interesting; 20% from you, 15% seller note for the seller and it's news to me that the equity infusion that you brought to the table scratched the requirement by the lender to have your house as collateral on the business so that's fantastic, good news there. Let's talk about— Rocky: That was thanks to Stephen as well. He did the negotiation for me with that as well. Joe: That's terrific. Let's talk about the transition and training period here. You've got a physical product business, the business model itself is not your standard typical e-commerce business where you're selling on let's say a Shopify store and Amazon you're also selling on I don't want to call them daily deal sites, how would you classify Zoot Wulily; hold on let's just talk about my mispronunciation. I said Zoot and Wulily, I meant Woot and Zulily and Groupon, things of that nature. Okay enough, we can make fun of me all day long; it'll be a long podcast. Tell us about the model where your products are being sold so that everybody understands the business model itself. Rocky: Sure our biggest partner happens to be Groupon, and Zulily is our 2nd biggest partner. We only do at this point about 10% of our business on Amazon, the rest are on deal sites as you mentioned. We have a company called MobStub that we do business with, OpenSky and some of Walmart of course and some of the other platforms that really are great opportunities for growth for us but our … what's called a preferred vendor on both Zulily and on Groupon and it works out very, very well for all of us. Joe: We don't have enough conversation about deal sites like Groupon, Zulily, Woot; all of them and I think the key … tell me if I'm wrong and expand on if I'm right but the key to success on deal sites like that is SKU counts and new SKUs and being able to present new products on a regular basis. Is that right; is that what sets you apart and allows you to do business with them on a regular basis? Rocky: Very much so; they are looking for new products to list on their sites and what we do is we try to do three new products a week on each on the Groupon site as an example. And by doing that we can end up growing along with them and they can present fresh products to their customers on a regular basis. So we vet the products out, we put them on their site, and ultimately we get orders from their customers of course and it helps us grow our business on our home site because they'll order their initial product from say Groupon or Zulily but because we send our product out branded with branded boxes or bags they then could come to our website and we really have done quite a bit of growth through our website and our e-mails because of those different vending platforms. Joe: That's fantastic. So in this situation are you using a 3PL or are you fulfilling orders yourself? Rocky: We fulfill our orders ourselves. I've got a wonderful team of people here in New Hampshire. In fact, we moved the business from Texas to New Hampshire over the Labor Day weekend and did not miss any orders that were placed with those portals that were wired to ship within a certain period of time. And the women that fulfill our orders here do an awesome, awesome job and we're very, very glad to end up being able to provide not only jobs for them but also we take real care in presenting our product to our customers. And because we have control of it we really feel as though it gets into the hands of our customers in a timely fashion and also with it having looking its best. Joe: Did the company come with any outsourced VA's that transferred with the business or did you take it over with your daughter? Rocky: Well, my daughter and I took it over and she does the day to day operations but we ended up having a wonderful team in India. As a matter of fact, we're going through some of the mistakes that I made in why that team ended up being so very important to our ultimate success. When I bought the business we had just about 510 SKUs, during the last quarter of the year I increased those number of SKUs from 510 to over 800. Joe: Wow. Rocky: And it was … I thought pretty easy; you just go out, you source the product, you bring it in, you just get some pictures, put it online, put some marketing behind it and you're all good to go. Joe: Simple; I mean its e-commerce, that's all it takes right? Rocky: That's all it takes. Joe: So I'm sensing we're going to have a valuable lesson come out of this. Rocky: Yes very much a valuable lesson but out of a few mistakes comes your biggest opportunities as well and what happened was I would go out and I would source all of this product and be bringing it in and bringing in and it was a little bit overwhelming to our people at the warehouse as far as stocking it in; having the SKUs. You have to create those SKUs, you have to end up picturing them, get them on the website, and so our team in India provided us with all of that necessary grunt work I'll call it to be able to assign SKUs, to be able to get our pictures taken, to be able to help us with the marketing of the product, and ultimately our customer satisfaction as well because with this size of business that we have we ship about 12,000 orders on average a month. Joe: 12,000 orders a month; that's amazing. Rocky: Yeah and in doing that we certainly have customers that we want to make sure that are taken care of and so we have four customer service people in India, we have a graphics designer, we have a website developer, and a number of other people that help us really execute the plan. We couldn't be where we are today and have experienced the growth we've experienced without their help. Joe: Rocky, you're in 12,000 I mean that's 400 orders a day are you capturing e-mail addresses for every single one of those customers? Rocky: Almost all of them. Joe: Are you're doing any e-mail marketing? Rocky: Absolutely we have about 125,000 e-mail addresses at this time and we e-mail market every single day; Monday thru Sunday. Joe: What software are you using? Rocky: We're using Mailchimp. Joe: Mailchimp; you need to go to EcomCrew.com and listen to Mike Jackness talk about his e-mail campaigns that he does on one of his businesses. I actually just sold up listings of business of Mike's and it's that business that he talks about. He goes all around the world speaking about it. He doesn't use Mailchimp, he uses Klaviyo and the getting 400 new email addresses a day 12,000 a month is gold to somebody with the skill set to be able to send additional e-mails. And with the volume of SKUs you have I would think that that's a growth opportunity; a huge one for you. Not that I know anything about it, Mike knows everything about it. So EcomCrew.com for anybody listening that wants to do e-mail marketing and Klaviyo as well I think you should check it out. So I know you love listening to the Quiet Light Podcast but I'm going to point you over to EcomCrew too. Let's talk briefly about your growth, I mean 12,000 orders a month is great; how many orders a month was it doing when you bought the business eight months ago? Rocky: We've actually experienced about 60% growth overall. Joe: 60% growth and you used to run automobile dealerships; you had no … other than e-commerce websites for the auto dealerships, did you have any e-commerce business experience? Rocky: No, actually I do not. Joe: What is fueling that growth other than your wisdom and your brilliance Rocky? What is happening here; how are you doing this? Let's just say it's your daughter man because she's going to listen to this. Rocky: Yes; absolutely. It goes back to realistically I was able to purchase a business where the gentleman who sold me the business is still actively helping me run the business. And so that really helps quite a bit. It goes back to the relationship that he and I built when he was selling the business to me. Joe: Is he being paid for that beyond the sale of the business and the transition and training period? Is it a consulting deal or he's just a really nice guy? Rocky: No, he is a nice guy; I will say that he's not being paid to end up doing the consulting work. What happened was we ended up forming because of my mistakes of adding these 300 SKUs at the end of the year we formed some businesses; two businesses together and so he wants to end up helping me continue to run Novadab and the growth of Novadab and in turn the two of us are helping each other grow these two new businesses. Joe: I think this is a 1st where we sold a business and then the buyer of the business starts another business with the guy who sold it. I think that's fantastic. And it goes to the relationships and being likable and connecting. I guess it's not always going to happen for sure and sometimes people just want an exit. They want an exit; they want to be done. They go through that initial transition and training period which the standard folks is up to 40 hours over the 1st 90 days. And if you don't have a seller note like Rocky did there's something called a hold back; a certain percentage of the funds just reside in Escrow and then are released in 90 days after that transition and training period is over. Alright well, let's … you've grown it 60% is that what you said? Rocky: In the last quarter of the year, we grew at 60%; the 1st quarter of this year, year over year growth was 40%. Joe: Wow, unbelievable. Alright so … but those 300 and something SKUs that you added; the big win big loss, what was the loss and what was the win? Rocky: The loss was definitely that I overwhelmed the team. Again it's just to add that many SKUs in such a short period of time during the peak quarter if you will; a mistake on my part and it definitely was too much too fast. And while they were very, very helpful in trying to get them launched we actually didn't get them up quickly as what we would want to. At the same time three of the SKUs that we didn't end up launching I know it's not a great percentage but three of the SKUs ended up selling over 20,000 pieces during the month of December. So it really provided some real good growth to us and the other SKUs some of them are working some of them are not but you have to try. And ultimately we're going to end up having most of those SKUs work and retire some of the older SKUs. You have to refresh your product up on a regular basis. I just try to do it all too quickly that's all. Joe: Oh that's alright, that's just part of the learning process at least you know it's a product line that doesn't go bad and you can sell through them, discount them, and maybe retire a few but that's pretty awesome. The big win; let's talk about what you're doing with the guy who sold you the business. You have started two new businesses together, what are they? Rocky: We started two new businesses; the 1st one is called Profinac and it stands for Professional Financial Accountants. Joe: Okay, I just have to say that sounds like prophylactic; how did you pick that name? Rocky: You and my wife said the same thing actually. Joe: She's a brilliant woman let me tell you that right now. Rocky: I will have to say that's part of why we're partners. I did not pick that name, Ashish picked that name for me or for us but the reason it stands for as I say Professional Financial Accountants and so we ran with that and see we're having an impression on everybody just as this [inaudible 00:30:44.2]. Joe: It's now unforgettable to the thousands that are listening. So Professional Financial Accountants, you are doing online bookkeeping for e-commerce businesses? Rocky: Yes, we do online bookkeeping for e-commerce businesses. We also do sales tax management. We end up doing payroll services for people as well, income statements. We'll do anything that they need to in order to offload what I feel that many e-commerce and really small businesses don't want to end up doing. They get so bogged down in being a business operator they don't end up being a business owner and so by taking off the real necessary, you have to keep score somehow and if this way somebody else can do it it ends up being or allowing you to end up focusing on the growth of the business. Joe: And there's … in my experience I mean growth is important if and when … you know what it's really when; when you decide to sell the business and it may be 15 years from now, it may be passing it on to a family member but they're still going to want financials when you decide the business you've got to have good clean financials. You can't co-mingle it with other brands and things that you want to keep. You're just going to get less value for the business and the time to start planning that exit even if it's in 10 years is now by getting good clean financials. So I think the prophylactic company, the Profinac is a great business. I'm sorry I won't do that again. What's the other … is it Profinac.com I assume? Rocky: Yes, it is. Joe: Alright. We'll put that in the show notes. Rocky: Okay. I appreciate that. The other thing is that's what you and Stephen taught me as far as the businesses were concerned in the sense of being able to provide a clean settled financial so that when you end up wanting to sell your business you have those financials that can end up getting that SBA approval ultimately. Joe: Let me ask the question because I think it's probably on some folks mind in the event they need these types of services and are doing it a little bit themselves right now are you using Xero or QuickBooks? Rocky: We will use both. Joe: Really? Rocky: Yes. We'll do either one for them. The team is well versed in both. We feel though that Xero will end up providing them with much more in depth information. Joe: I agree; I hear that a lot. The one thing that I wish the developers of Xero would do is allow a Profit & Loss statement to be run with a longer date range than just 12 months. When someone sends us the Xero reports we have to merge all of the years together in order to get to a running P&L which we always want to present with Quick Books; it's easy. And also the Xero folks they're not US based, I don't think because all of the dates are reversed of what we do here in the States which is the reverse of everybody else in the world I'm sure. Rocky: Yeah very, very true. They're an e-commerce based platform and they were founded on the e-commerce platform or in the cloud if you will, that's one reason why we feel that it provides us with a lot of [inaudible 00:34:10.3] that way. Joe: Good, what's the 2nd business that you're starting with your new business partner? Rocky: It's called Supportab and that is S-U-P-P-O-R-T-A-B.com. Joe: Only one T? Rocky: Only one T. We don't know how to spell either. Joe: It's giving you support to your abs; that's what this one does. Okay, what does Supportab do? Rocky: Supportab basically provides again a lot of the necessary support that an e-commerce business needs. This is going back to my big mistake of introducing those 300 SKUs. I needed to end up having a team; a website developer, for example, customer satisfaction people, graphics designer, marketing person. That's what we provide to people that are in the e-commerce world. And what we do that's a little bit different than some of the other businesses out there is that we have it all and we call it omni channel instead of multichannel. And omni channel basically is the integration of all of those different facets under one roof where your customer satisfaction team or your customer service team, your website developing team, your graphics team are all working together and that way they communicate with each other and interact with each other as far as what the overall goal of the company is. Whereas if you do it multi-channel you might go out and hire a bookkeeper, you might go out and hire customer service people but they never talk to each other so they don't get that common feel of the business going forward. We have it all under one roof and we also provide the supervision and management of that team. So we interview the companies and we ask them what their goals are and then we then convey that and manage the team towards those goals, talk with the owner of the company on a regular basis, and then we make sure that we're doing what it is they want to end up doing and more to achieve their goals. Joe: Based upon my experience in doing thousands of valuations I would say it's a very needed service because a lot of people that sell their business sell because they're just pulled in too many different directions, feel like they're going nowhere, and just need to cash out and get some emotional satisfaction because they're not getting any. Because they're working in the business instead of on the business, so Supportab; support one T ab.com sounds great. But Rocky you don't have any e-commerce experience, you're an experienced business person who's been managing a very difficult niche in the automotive world for 20 plus years now you've got Novadab so I guess that brings that life experience to starting these two new companies which are essentially service agencies which are definitely needed. What about your business partner before Novadab, what kind of e-commerce world experience does he have? Rocky: Well, he founded Novadab and certainly brought it to fruition and then before that he works for AT&T for a period of time in website development and was doing a lot of computer work himself. So that's one of my partner's— Joe: So he's mature, he's not in his early 20's that started his 1st business sold and is doing more business with you? He's got some real world experience behind him as well. Rocky: Very much so and the other partner that we have is actually his brother who is located in India and is heads of the operation over in India for us so that we have someone who has experienced … he worked for Pfizer for a period of time and did marketing for them and spends the time building our team in India and sourcing all of our employees that we end up hiring in that area. Joe: Wow. Is he and his brother originally from the States or born in India and relocated to the States? Rocky: They were born in India and Ashish came over here. He came over here to go to college, graduated from college and wanted to stay for a period of time and has now located in Austin is where he is. Joe: Oh, that's great. That's great to have a direct contact there that is an owner of the business, a relative of one of the owners of the business as well so it's fantastic. Well, Rocky, this is a great story; we're running out of time here. I appreciate you coming back on and actually allowing the team to record this one. Thank you very much for your humor in that regard and your time. I'm very impressed that you've taken this and grown it to the level you have in such a short period of time just for your daughter's sake. He's given you all of the credit in case you're listening; Rocky is just showing up every day. I'm kidding of course. The next time we have you on I want another update maybe in another 12 months we can get you back on, maybe have a daughter on as well what do you think? Rocky: That would be awesome. I couldn't do it without her that's for sure. She takes care of the day to day operations and allows me to end up working these other businesses and really without the team that I have I wouldn't be where I am so I really appreciate all of their hard work without a doubt. Joe: And we appreciate the type of person you are, the type of buyer you are, and the fact that everything has gone so smoothly. I'm so glad to hear for your success. Thank you for coming on the podcast and I look forward to doing an update with you sometime in the future. Rocky: Thanks very much for having me, Joe. It's been a real, real lot of fun. Joe: Take care, you too. Links and Resources: Novadab Profinac SupporTab Centurica StephenSpears BruceMarks Austin Meetup

In this episode Evan and Joe discuss emergency shit stories, Joe "come on down" Biden, the 2020 Dem primary race, legalizing mushrooms, and federal jobs guarantee.

Combined, Mark and I have reviewed thousands of profit and loss statements over the years. What we've seen and learned in that time, is that certain key financial metrics can make or break the value of a business. In today's podcast we cover all of these metrics, including one that could cost a seller hundreds of thousands in value, and give a buyer huge instant equity. If you think the financial metrics and details are boring, wake up! You work night and day and risk everything to build your business, and it is more than likely that your business is your most valuable asset. Having deep financial details will bring more you more value, peace of mind, and maybe someday help you create a “lifetime event” sale and an exit that will change your life, and the lives of your descendants for generations to come. Episode Highlights: [:10] How long does it take to do a valuation? [2:35] What are “clean financials”? [4:02] YOY trends tend to be the most important financial factor. [6:12} We always look at a monthly view of the financials. Not just quarterly or annually. [9:15} Revenue by Channel show a deeper view of overall revenue trends (and reveal gold, or roadblocks). [14:40] Any channel that has you “own” the customer brings more value. {15:20] After total revenues, Mark views gross profit margins next, as do many buyers. [17:20] COGs should not include 3rd party fees! [18:41] Gross profit margins below 20% make Mark nervous. [20:10] Joe loves to see advertising expenses by revenue channel (this does not have to be in the P&L). [23:14] When you “get” the metrics right a business value can instantly jump by hundreds of thousands of dollars. [25:31] Trust offsets risk. The lower the risk is the more value your business will bring. [27:03] Don't hide negative trends…if you've recovered. A recovery shows how resilient the business is. [28:23] Drilling down to specific expenses and their trends tell a fuller story of the business condition. [30:19] QLB brokers Advertising, Saas, eCommerce and other business models. [31:01] Certain metrics are key with SaaS and Subscription based businesses. [33:49] Discretionary earnings equals net income, plus add backs. [34:06] Discretionary Earnings as a percent of total revenue “comfort levels” vary depending on the niche. [38:01] Revenue by SKU can show huge built-in growth if some were launched in the trailing 12 months. [39:55] Joe & Mark get into the weeds. Go there with them and learn how to increase the value of your business by hundreds of thousands of dollars, or buy one and get instant equity. Transcription: Mark: All right Joe you probably know this from your experience here at Quiet Light Brokerage but how long does it take you … when you're talking to a client for the first time or somebody who's requesting a value of the business, how long on average do you think it really takes you to be able to get an estimate of the size of the business and the value of their business? Joe: Yeah there's really no short answer to that. I feel like you want me to tell you five minutes but the answer is it's at least an initial call you get a ballpark range. And then you got to look at the financials and look at the trends, know your trends and look at the details of the financials. It's so much of that answer and the time frame around it depends upon how good their documentation is and how much they know about their own books. Mark: Sure and just you know I want you to answer whatever you want to answer. I'm not going to feed you answers; answer the truth. Yeah, well I think that's true. We've been looking at businesses for a while. We've looked at a lot of businesses in the roles that we have. And so I thought it would be good for us to have a discussion today to talk about some of the things that we look at in a business's financials to really be able to determine its value pretty quickly. What are some of the things that you with your expert eye from all the deals that you've done, what do you look at when you look at a company's financials? Now I know every buyer out there listening to this you probably have the reports that you look at. We have the advantage of working with lots of different buyers. We see the different approaches that different buyers have made. And I know that over the last 10 years I've expanded and changed what I look at and probably look at more things and things maybe that wouldn't concern me as much directly but I'm looking at to try and anticipate what buyers would want to see. Joe: So what is … what's the number one thing you look at first? You're always looking at this one thing what is it? Mark: By the way, if anyone is wondering no we don't have a guest so you have to live with Joe and I for the rest of this episode. But we'll try to make it entertaining. Okay, so what do I look at first and foremost? I have gotten very addicted to looking at trends. Trends to me to it's one of the most important thing with somebody's financials … outside of whether or not they're clean of course right? They've got to be clean if I'm going to … if we're going to be able to make any real valuation. Joe: Can we define clean? What do you mean by that? Mark: That's a good question actually. Joe: Somebody in the audience was just asking it they just [inaudible 00:03:03.7] through to my head. Mark: You're anticipating what people are going to be asking weeks from now; I love it. What are clean financials? So clean would be separated from other businesses. And that doesn't mean that you have to have completely separate tax IDs. That's ideal … you know separate tax IDs and separate books. I would love it if that's what you had but at least within QuickBooks or Xero or whatever you're using, some way of identifying this is for this business. This expense goes for this business and that expense goes for another business if you have multiple businesses running. Also actually having that tracked clearly and so that you're not just taking estimates on things and finally not mixing in a lot of personal expenses into it. In the episode that I recorded with Brian we talked about some of the warning signs. We saw in financials … and that episode is aired by now so go back and take a listen to that, but one of the warning signs that we often see are round numbers. Joe: Oh yeah. Mark: Round numbers are … yeah, these are not clean financials; these are estimates. Joe: Unless it's payroll but if you've got expenses of advertising of $1500 a month or your phone bills … you know $2300 a month yeah the round numbers are always challenging. But clean financials are so important because it allows us to look at things from an analytical eye and from the buyer's eye. And you yourself you say you look at trends, which trend specifically do you hone in on? Mark: Well the number one trend I like to look at would be year over year trends. So there's … when we're looking at trends just as in general for a business there's two main approaches that people take. One would be a month over month so are we doing better this month than we did the month before and was that month better than the month before that and how does that look. And maybe you spread that out and do like a quarter over quarter analysis. I like to take a look at businesses more from the year over year analysis. So if I'm taking a look at July of 2018 I want to compare that against July of 2017. Or if I'm going to do it on it like a quarterly basis I might take a look at quarter two of this year and compare it to quarter two of the year before and of the year before that. And the reason that I do this is I think people have seasonal businesses without knowing that they have a seasonal business. Obviously like Halloween … you know I've sold a number of Halloween sites in the past, that's an obvious seasonal business, Christmas obviously a seasonal business. Gardening and supply store a little less obvious but when you think about yeah it's a seasonal business. I think those aren't too far off stretches. But when you take a look at a company like Quiet Light Brokerage we also have seasons. We have our busy seasons, we have our a little bit less busy seasons. Summer, it tends to slow down a little bit. It's not appreciable. It's not like one of those things where you can look at and say it's going to be absolutely dead. And I wouldn't call us having a seasonal business but in the books, it does get reflected that way. So I like the year over year financial analysis because it controls all of those variables and also some of the variables for having a few extra days in a month or a few less days in a month. Joe: Yeah I think you've got to specifically look at that month over month analysis because of the seasonality. You know some will say well is there the best time to sell my business and it's really the time that's right for that particular individual. But when you're comparing December of 2018 to December of 2017 that is what is most relevant. It's not necessarily all of 2018 against all of 2017 because if you just look at the annual numbers of '17 versus '18 it's only going to paint a partial picture. We're always looking for monthly trends beyond that. We can … we look at that bigger picture and that's what we can talk about, that big picture in the teaser where people are going to see the listing for the first time. You know 60% year over year growth or whatever the number might be. But you've got to drill down into that month over month. How does December … I guess it's year over year December of '18 looked to December of '17. Because you could have had a great first three quarters and then in the fourth quarter of 2018 it could have fallen off a cliff. It still may look like 60% growth year over year but the most recent quarter could be down dramatically. And that dramatically reduces the value of the business because of the risk going forward. Mark: And the other thing that I found and I wrote a blog post on this a several years ago, we'll link to it in the show notes and if you and I were professional podcasters I would have done like actual show prop and been able to have this example at my fingertips. But I did this blog post years ago on how to perform a year over year financial analysis. And then I put together some dummy data and this actually kind of randomly happened when I put it together. Where at from a month over month standpoint the business looked like it was growing and growing at a good clip. But when you took a look at it at a year over year financial analysis what you're able to see is that the growth was slowing dramatically on the business. And that was extremely valuable in that and again it's a pretend scenario to be able to see the actual trend. What is … where is the direction of this business going? The other thing that I want to point out about this and I don't want to spend [inaudible 00:08:10.9] of time on this specific topic of year over year financial analysis but I think the one thing that we need to kind of pull back on with online businesses is we tend to really take a microscopic view of the financials. We'll often take a look at just the past couple of months and consider that to be a trend. Starting to broaden out our timeframes I think is a good thing to do especially from a buying stand point and understanding what is the context of the earnings of this business. When I started Quiet Light Brokerage in 2006, 2007 well most companies were just a few years old. Now we're seeing businesses that are 20, 25 years old on the long end and so we have more history to work with. And I just think year over year is a better solution for that. So that's my number one thing that I look for. Joe: I agree and I'm going to drill down beyond that and the next thing that I would look at but you know not being professional podcasters shows that we're human which is exactly what we are. Okay, that's too much ego there, sorry folks. What I do when you talk about a particular blog and we're not prepared for it, all you're going to do is Google Quiet Light Brokerage and year over year analysis and boom there it is. So for the record, you've done a great job on the last decade. Beyond the year over year comparison, month over month comparison what I drill down into next is revenue by channel. Because a buyer is going to look at it and see what's happening in the most recent three months compared to the same three months last year or year to date things of that nature. And so that shows the trends of the business and which way it's going. Beyond that what I like to drill down to and this goes to documentation is revenue by channel. So is it … let's say it's in a physical products business am I getting 60% of my revenue from Amazon, 25% B2B, and 15% from a new Shopify store. And then beyond that what are the trends within those channels? For instance, I had a listing awhile back where it was it was 100% Amazon and they like most started out on Amazon.com and then expanded to Germany, UK, Canada, Japan, Italy, and those countries took off and were really growing at the same time the US started to trend down. So they put all of their efforts into the new countries and stopped putting efforts into the country that was generating the most revenue. Overall if you look at month over month numbers as a whole we were still up, year over year we were still up, but there was a concerning trend within all of it and that was that the biggest revenue generator was dropping and then it was being replaced with other channels. So overall I guess if you just look at the broad picture it was okay but when you … you want to drill down into those things to get a really clearer picture of it. And that goes for Shopify channels [inaudible 00:11:11.5] or Shopify whatever it might be and then the B2B side too. These are if you're selling physical products. Same goes for content sites or SaaS sites, whatever they might be; advertising sites or SaaS sites. If you've got different methods of advertising and revenues whether it's straight up sales from your website or affiliate revenue you want to break that out in your financials so that you can see them. So you can see what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong but also so that your broker, advisor, exit planner, and your buyer can see it as well. Because you have some great things in there … you know if you started a Shopify store nine months ago and it's already at 15% of your total revenue it's only nine months out of the trailing 12 so you've got built in growth there and that is a really exciting thing for buyers. Mark: Yeah I dealt with a client recently where we were having a little bit of trouble moving his business because it was not on a decline. And he had a lot of revenue but there was a couple of problems with the business where it was sick in a few ways. And what I found is out of our buyers … and we had lots of inquiries on this business because we put it up at a pretty low multiple, most buyers backed out right away when they saw the trends they just kind of backed out and said “No I'm not really all that interested in this business. I don't want to turn around but I have you.” And the buyers that we've grown to know over the years that they're really successful at what they're doing they took a little bit more time and the first thing that they started to do is exactly what you're talking about. They started to take those financials and some of those summation numbers that we see in financials and they started to break them apart. They started to really dig into those numbers and see okay what makes up this revenue. And when we started to break these apart what can we find in here; what's sick and what's healthy? And is what's healthy sustainable and is what's sick is that fixable or is it something that we can just get rid of? And so they started looking at that on a per channel basis but they also started looking at it on a per SKU basis as well in running an analysis. And one of the things that we found with this is that you could actually lighten up the workload of this business and actually increase profitability significantly by removing a large number of the SKUs because they were not all that profitable. But again the front is still the multi-channel analysis that you're talking about. But I think this general principle of when you're looking at revenue especially with an e-commerce business that can have multiple channels of revenue don't just take the summation number, start to break it apart. And from the sell side, if you're selling don't be afraid of reporting those numbers either. There's opportunity in those numbers that you can show potential buyers and I think a little dose of humility for all of this goes a long way. Sometimes somebody is going to come and take a look at your business and be able to have an observation that maybe we've been missing for a while. And from a selling standpoint that's your opportunity if a buyer comes in and notices something that you missed. And so give them that data, give them that opportunity to make that sort of observation. And I think that's a good thing for people to look for. Is there any channel in your opinion that you like better than others or that you look at and you would weight as more valuable than others? Joe: Oh yeah I mean any channel you own the customer. If it's just your own website where you are owning the customer completely and you can remarket to them and upsell them and reach out to them socially via email, whatever method you can. But absolutely owning the customer brings more value than … you know in Amazon platform for instance. Amazon is growing like crazy so don't discount it if you're selling physical products. You have to be there in my opinion. You're missing out on a tremendous amount of revenue if you're not there. But owning the customer is the most important thing in terms of overall value. One of the things I want to jump to Mark is … it's on our list here to talk about in terms of the year over year analysis and drilling down and getting below that total revenue line to either gross profit as a percentage of total revenue or discretionary earnings as a percentage to total revenue. Which one do you look at first? Mark: I look at gross profit first if it's an e-commerce business and just because it's a simpler number to digest. Now there's only really one thing that's getting thrown into that gross profit number you've got your revenue, you've got your landed cost of goods sold and that's pretty much it that's going into the gross profit number. So it's an easier thing to really understand and really at the core of an e-commerce business is that you know what is the cost of your product, and what are people willing to pay for it right now, and how is that trending. And I think with e-commerce businesses specifically because price competition is a real thing with e-commerce businesses and most niches you have to really pay attention to how is the profitability of this industry holding up over time. Is it becoming more competitive? Is the competition happening on a price front? Or are suppliers becoming more aggressive in their pricing as well? So that's one of the first things that I look at when I start to really dig into those financials. I want to see how is that gross profit margin holding up over time, is it getting more expensive to do this business or is it holding up? Joe: You know it's funny I think I agree with you that what you should have in your expenses above the gross profit line are your cost of goods sold, your landed cost of goods sold. But I often see them in from bookkeepers and they include in some cases fees associated with third party platforms. I don't know if there's a right way or a wrong way but you got to dissect to that a little bit when doing the analysis. Is there a particular percentage of profit that you look at and you're like no, your cost of goods sold are just simply too high, the margins are too tight, this is going to be really hard one to sell. Do you ever run across any of those? Mark: I do and I'll get to that in just a second I'm going to chide all the book keepers out there that are including fees in there as cost of goods sold. The technical definition for a cost of goods sold has to be … be involved in the actual production and sourcing of the product itself; the transactional cost. So if you're keeping your books that way it's a minor issue and a crawling issue that I won't fight too hard but it's supposed to go on the regular operational expenses instead. Joe: I fell asleep in accounting class. I just focus on what I focus on. I told you this story before. We work with Scott of Catching Clouds, Matt of CapForge, Fully Accountable is a recent one that's come across my desk and all three seem to do a really solid job. And having a great bookkeeper brings a windfall of cash when you go to list your business for sale. Mark: Absolutely and one of those guys might disagree with me and then we can whip out our pocket protectors and have a pen fight over that. Joe: All right yeah … let's keep the people awake. We don't want to talk about that. Mark: All right, move on. So percentages absolutely, you want to see a healthy gross profit percentage. I talked to one buyer and I won't say her name because I don't know if she wants me saying this but she told me that she wouldn't look at a business that had less than 50% gross profit margins. I wouldn't go that far. In my opinion, when I'm looking at the business from a broker standpoint I start to get nervous when gross profit margins dip below 20% is when I get nervous, 25% and lower I'm a little uncomfortable with that but you know I think that's doable. I think the average that I'd see would be right around 35%; 30-35% would be the average. Obviously the higher you can have it the better. There are certain industries, electronics being one of them that tend to just have really low gross profit margins and you know the problem with that and just thinking about it I have basic basis if you're … say you have a 10% gross margin which for a lot of electronics that's where you're at, you're looking at having a million dollars in revenue to be able to generate $100,000 in just gross profit. That's a lot of money that you have to generate in order to get some gross profit. So my rule is about 20%. Joe: It doesn't count your advertising; it doesn't count your payroll or anything like that so. Mark: Or your transactional fees [inaudible 00:19:26.7] marketplace. Joe: Exactly as it should be down below that gross profit line. So that's going down that P&L you know you've got total revenue you've got gross profit and then you've got all these expenses in there. One of the things that I always look pretty closely at if I have the detail up above is the advertising channel. Do you ever get to see advertising expenses by channel in a P&L? Mark: By channel … I'm trying to think if I've seen it. With Amazon, you'll see it. Sometimes you'll see Amazon advertising expenses broken out separate from- Joe: Wouldn't it be amazing to see it there? Just for those bookkeepers out there and those people that are doing it themselves. Mark: Oh my gosh. Joe: If you've got revenue by channel up above the total revenue line why not have advertising by channel down below? It … you can do it in QuickBooks and Xero you just got to have a subset of it. In the exported P&L it may say just total advertising but you can show that separately. And the reason I love to look at that is because it can show too heavy of a weight in one particular channel again in the advertising dollars. This is airing in August of 2018, as many people listening know there was an algorithm update in Facebook in April. And a lot of people got hurt by that and if they were overspending on Facebook advertising and they might have found themselves too heavily weighted on one channel and that advertising didn't work as well anymore and their revenues might have dropped. Or they had to pick up the ball somewhere else and it took a while. So it goes to that detail. The more detail we can see the more we'll understand those trends and a buyer can make a more informed decision. If somebody's stroking a check for 100,000, 500,000, a million whatever the number is, they worked hard for that money, they saved it, they're smart, they're intelligent, they're going to get through those numbers eventually and it's better to do it upfront in advance so that once you're under a lot of intent you get all the way through the closing. So I'm always trying to drill down into those details. I would love advertising by channel. I don't always get it but it's a question that I'm always asking and is that spending by channel going up or down. I think if you can again diversify by channel and if it's Facebook, if it's Instagram, if it's AdWords, if it's inside your sponsored account or whatever it might be, if you're selling SaaS products, affiliate whatever you might be doing; having that level of detail is truly ideal and I'm always looking for it if I can get it. I can often get it out of just a P&L but generally, there's enough detail in the back end for the client … the person owning the business to be able to share that. Mark: Yeah I've used an analogy some time … and by the way, real quick just kind of a public service announcement here if anybody is listening to this in your car it's late at night you've been driving for a while put this on pause go put on like a really exciting song for a little bit and then come back and finish it. Joe: Come on. Mark: No just … all right so I- Joe: This is huge. This is all huge that just- Mark: It should be exciting. Joe: You and I do this all the time and it's exciting for a client when we go through these numbers and we find something and all of a sudden they realize that if we do this right their business … they don't have to generate any more revenue but their business when properly presented is worth a quarter of a million dollars more. So that's pretty exciting you don't have to generate more revenue. Mark: Well absolutely. So I'm actually going to bring this to Botany of all things. I think its Botany or probably not but the study of trees and tree rings … you're looking at me like I'm crazy. Joe: I am. Well, you are. Okay. Mark: Yeah well I am a little bit crazy but one of the cool things that I learned years ago about the tree rings, you know when you slice a tree and you can see all the rings and stuff like that. Scientists are able to tell all sorts of information from those rings. They're able to tell if there is a fire a certain time in that area, or if it was a drought year or if it was heavy rains that year, and the average temperature as well. You can find all sorts of information like and the reason I bring this up … there is a point here besides me just talking about the fun things I learned on the side outside of work, is that financially I'd look at financials in sort of the same way. It's the record of the business and its quantified what's happening to your business in other ways. Facebook's algorithm change is an actual change in your customer acquisition strategy and it shows up on those books. There's very little that happens in your business that's not going to show up somewhere in your financial records. And so when you keep detailed financial records what you're doing is you're keeping a story of your business in a quantified way. And for buyers who are trying to evaluate a business, you know buyers look at this from all sorts of different ways; especially experienced buyers. They're going to look at your business from an ROI standpoint. They want to understand can I make money from this? But they're also going to look at it from the story of the business and try and get in the head you as a business owner and what it's been like to run it for the past number of X years. And so your point about keeping more beautiful records and breaking advertising down into channels AdWords or Facebook, we've messed around with Pinterest for a while if you've done some Quora advertising or have you. That's part of the story of your business that you can tell when you really start to break down financials historically. Joe: Yeah and I think it's important to understand that all of those details are important to be able to share. Somebody listening that's planning on selling their business they may want to say I don't want to share those negative trends, I don't want to talk about that fire that I had back in June of 2017. It's going to come out so you might as well get those details out there and ready and available for your buyers because trust … when you lay it all out there it builds trust. And trust is important because it offsets risk a little bit. And again when you offset that risk a buyer is willing to pay more for your business. And it's all important … it goes into your social media accounts too you know. I've had … and I'm going to tangent but … and I won't name names but I had clients that are selling their business and I pop into their social media account and their profile picture is them on the beach topless with a beer on their hand and chugging whatever. Those are men topless by the way. And I'm like it's great but just put a shirt on for a little while, just change your profile picture because we're trying to build trust and respect in who you are. Buyers want to buy from client sellers that they like and that they trust more than anything else. So that's why you want to share all those rings of the tree and tell the full story because they'll look at the mistakes that you've made and the expertise that they have that you don't and go opportunity. I have capital to not run out of inventory and you did, I'm smarter than you are, or I have more money than you are. That's really really critical stuff to have. Anyway- Mark: With the negative trends in the past by the way I just want to say one quick thing. It's not a bad thing if you have a negative trend in the past. In fact, I like it when I see a business that has had a decline and recovered. I can go to a buyer and say look how resilient this business is. Joe: Exactly. Mark: They ran out of product for two months and they're still chugging along great; it didn't kill them. Joe: That's right. I actually had a situation where a client had a patent infringement claim filed against them. And not just against that particular client but against everybody that was selling a similar product. And it turns out that everyone else stopped selling that product period. My client hired an attorney, fought the infringement, won, and ended up being one of the only sellers of that particular product anymore and that just … the revenues shot up, gained more market share. And it's an ugly thing … a patent infringement; you don't want to talk about that right? No, you absolutely do because odds of it happening again incredibly low and in this situation, it turned out to be very positive as well. So I say expose all the rings of the tree in your analogy in botany. Let us know if botany is not … I think it is the right phrase but- Mark: I think it's like the big family. I think there is probably a more narrow specialty. Somebody- Joe: We are sitting in front of computers; you want to drill down a little further? We've talked about advertising by channel what would you look at next in a let's say a financial presentation or a profit and loss statement? Mark: Well you know I'm going to start getting into these specific expenses and I want to take a look at what the individual average … or what not advertising, the individual expenses are to see are any trending higher. Basically, is this business getting more difficult to run, is it getting more expensive to run? And the other thing that you can see from just kind of an expense profile would be attempts at growth. You often see expenses ramp up when people expect growth so you can get the sense for where the business is arcing from taking a look at individual expenses. So I would look at staffing costs, they really ramped up. Are you seeing a lot of professional legal fees ramp up? That will be something that you wanted to begin to and try and get a little bit of explanation into. But really trying to get in … again some of those individual expenses and see spikes and anomalies. You know things that kind of stand out because those again are going to be the big stories that you want to get into later on. So we move a little bit away from trend analysis when we start looking at that … when we start getting into just kind of that anomaly analysis of a financial statement to see what questions do we need to be asking on this particular business. Joe: Yeah and it's not just anomalies where there's spikes in revenue but sometimes expenses disappear. And when they disappear for the last two or three months of the trailing 12 and now they want to sell their business they're just … either they made a mistake or just forgot to put it in. But they're just cutting costs to increase their discretionary earnings. So we always … we drill down into all of that, every buyer will and we do it for them, ask those questions and get it exposed so that it's a good investment for a buyer and the selling achieves their goals as well. Mark: Something I want to ask you about Joe, you know we get talked a lot … Quiet Light, in general, is pegged a lot as kind of like the e-commerce broker like that's what we do but we actually sell a lot of SaaS businesses. Joe: And content or advertising business. If you look at the revenue on close transactions here to date it's an awful lot of SaaS an awful lot of content in there as well. Mark: Right and I explain to people it's actually not a majority of e-commerce it's a plurality for us as we're less than 50% of our deals are e-commerce it's more around 40, 45% percent. I want to get into subscription based revenue and how do you look at that when you're evaluating business. What are you … you've done a number of SaaS businesses or a certain number of SaaS businesses, how do you evaluate subscription based revenue? Joe: Yeah anytime someone's looking at the subscription based businesses to buy you know the eye that I look at it with is what does it cost to acquire that customer and what is the lifetime value of that customer? Could they have different terminologies for it churn rate and so on and so forth … you know how [inaudible 00:30:20.7]  if you get 100 new customers how many are churning every month, meaning how many go away? You want to keep that very low. Well I was looking at that churn rate but the simple way to look at it is … from a buyer's perspective is if you've … you know I just closed a transaction it was a software as a service business, it's been around for 14 years and it was created originally as a solution to a developer's problem. The developer created it and then it just sort of grew organically. And 14 years later he had a very successful business but he didn't have any data. He was only spending about literally like $300 a month on advertising. I'm like okay well what is the cost to acquire that customer with your advertising and then how long does that customer stick around? What is their lifetime value? So that a buyer wants to look at it and go okay it costs you $100 to acquire a customer but the lifetime value of that customer is $400. My margins are really strong that means okay I can spend more money on advertising dollars and I can double the revenue of this company. They're always looking at that aspect of it from a subscription based business. And that could be physical products or software as a service. That churn rate is really really important, lifetime value, and repeat customer. Once you've gained a customer and if you've got the ability to offer them additional products and upsells that's something that I'm always looking for if you've got that model where you can add to it. The percentage of repeat customers that monthly recurring revenue; always looking at those numbers. I mean just saying that there's a monthly recurring revenue of $60,000 right away you just do the math on that that's $360,000 of revenue that you're not putting advertising dollars to because it's already recurring and there's a fixed margin there. That stuff is really exciting and if you're an owner of software as a service business or a subscription based model box business you've got to have those numbers because that's what buyers are going to look for. They're going to want to know how much does it cost because I'm bringing a whole lot of working capital I'm going to blow this thing up and they want to know the cost to acquire that customer and lifetime value; two most important things in my opinion. Mark: [inaudible 00:08:10.9] things? Joe: We got a couple more. Mark: We have a couple more? Joe: Yeah drill down to the bottom discretionary earnings we know … hopefully, everybody knows discretionary earnings is your net income plus your add backs. Net income of the bottom of a profit and loss [inaudible 00:32:44.9] statement add back to the personal expenses you run through the business that are your own benefits and one-time expenses. So you get net income plus add backs equals seller's discretionary earnings. Where do you feel most comfortable, where do you see buyers feel most comfortable in terms of that discretionary earnings as a percentage of your total revenue? Mark: Boy that's a great question and I think it depends a little bit on the business itself. So SaaS companies tend to have higher SDE to revenue percentages. Content sites can have … depending on how they're set up can also have a higher percentage. E-commerce tends to have a little bit lower percentages relative to revenue. So I'm not sure if I've looked at this in terms of percentages as far as SDE to a percentage … I would assume since you asked the question that you have. Joe: I have and you know 10% percent you could have at least I think. I can tell you what I don't want and I've turned away businesses I just simply won't list them because they're not going to sell are those that have 1 or 2%. You know look I'm not talking they're doing three million in discretionary earnings off of 30 million in revenue. That's a sellable business no question about it. But when you're doing 1 or 2% of your total margins you're spending a lot of money on advertising dollars, you're carrying a lot of working capital and inventory, you make a mistake a half a percent one way or the other and your profit drops dramatically. And any time I've looked at those, anytime we've listed things that have a smaller percentage margin there in discretionary earnings buyers get really nervous and they look at it from that point of view. So you've really got to do that math and not go oh yeah it's 200,000 in discretionary earnings. You've got to go okay it's 200,000 and what percentage is that of my total revenue, and how do I improve that? And then you drill down into those expenses. Dave Bryant who's part of the e-commerce podcast … EcomCrew Michael Jackness, he was our client and a year before we sold his business he did that. He looked at that bottom line sellers discretionary earning as a percentage of the total revenue and then drilled down into certain SKUs and looked at the profit margin of those and either renegotiated the ones that were not profitable enough or got rid of a few and added about 40,000 of discretionary earnings to his business and about $120,000 to the list price of the business. So I … you want to get at I'd say shoot for 10%, 5% gets a little you know depending upon the business and how large total revenues are but it's always a case by case basis. [inaudible 00:35:18.2]  get down to that 2, 3% range I get really really nervous as do buyers. Mark: I do think that part of it is revenue dependent. I've found with businesses that have kind of eye popping revenue numbers that even if the discretionary earnings is a very small percentage as you point out … if the business is doing 30 million dollars in revenue per year and it has really low percentage of discretionary earnings it's still a sellable business because you got 30 million dollars of revenue per year to be able to play with. It's when you get in those territories of say you have $500,000 of revenue and your discretionary earnings is just 10% of that so it's $50,000 that's not a lot of room for error before you're at negative territory and you don't have a lot of extra room in capital to be able to really pull into the growth of that business. So I think that's a good thing to be able to look at. I think a lot of it depends on the size of the business. Joe: Yeah I completely agree. Look we didn't start … we didn't time this podcast, we have no idea how long we've been chatting for but I want to touch on one more thing that is really important I think for buyers to look at in terms of opportunity and for sellers to track in terms of again opportunity to get more value for your business. Buyers in terms of if they're not detailing it and you can figure that out you'll see built in growth and that is revenue by SKU. And that is whether it's a physical products business or a subscription business; again, box or software as a service. Because sometimes software as a service they offer different packages and what not. If you've launched a SKU, a new product in the last 12 months and I've seen this before and let's say you've got a dozen SKUs and six of them are only … they're under nine months old and staggered within there, you've got built in growth. And so what I like to drill down to if I can get it is revenue by SKU for the trailing 12 months. Because if a SKU was launched six months ago but it's already up to 18% of the total revenue that's huge because you've got six more months and it's growing. It's absolute built in growth and it brings more value for a buyer. You can push the value of the business a little bit higher and if you can share that detail with the buyers they're going to get it. They're going to look at it and go yes I get it I understand it. Classic example of that is Kent Renner. We had him on here on the podcast early on back in December right? 300% year over year growth and he only owned the business for six months. The business had a total of 16 SKUs when he bought it. Nine of them had been launched within the trailing 12 months and represented about 40% of the total revenues. So it's absolute built in growth and Kent's took that business and it was doing a million in revenue when he bought it to three million in total revenue inside of it … a total of 12 months. And that was because that revenue by SKU detail that Evan the seller was able to provide and sort of built in past to growth for it for Kent to take over. Mark: Yes so I'm going to make a point here in this but beginning way to into the weeds on this topic here but I'm going to just venture in there anyways and just as an advanced tactic for buyers to look at I think what you're saying there is absolute gold. And again I've seen some of our top buyers do just that. They really get into the SKUs and these are particular get it. So let's get into a situational analysis here and say you have an e-commerce business that recently launched some SKUs within the past year or two years and … now I'm saying this because I have this case with a client, they're keeping their books on a cash basis. From a buying opportunity, in my opinion, this is like absolute gold because their costs relative to the revenue is going to be very very high. They're building up inventory in a product that is growing in sales but it isn't really there yet and so you have super depressed or understated gross profit which is going to pop very soon. This is like one of those signals that you're like buy. Like if you know what you're looking at buy this thing because it's going to pop in the next year and you're going to see that massive growth. You get maybe too much of the weeds there. Joe: Yeah getting into cash versus accrual accounting with cost of goods sold way into the weeds but I'm telling you right now as a buying opportunity if you're looking at other brokerage firms … which hopefully you're looking at everybody. Any experienced broker is going to take a listing and go yeah okay there's the discretionary we'll do a few add backs and here's the multiple on that discretionary earnings. An experienced broker is going to take that same profit and loss statement, a physical products business and make sure that the cost of goods sold is presented on accrual basis. That discretionary earnings number … most often with the business, it's growing rapidly where you're taking excess working capital and putting it back in the inventory that discretionary earnings is going to pop. And I've seen a quarter of a million dollar increase in the value of the business because of it. Let's see if I can do some simple math. Imagine you have in the trailing twelve months a cost of goods sold of a million dollars on a cash basis. It's a big number but I'm trying to do round numbers. And let's say that on a cash basis you're over inflated by 5%. If you flipped it to accrual instead of having 35% cost of goods sold your real cost of goods sold is only 30% but because your cash your 5% higher. 5% times that million dollars that you've got there on the books is $50,000. If your business is worth three times that's $150,000 added onto the list price of the business. Or if you're a buyer and it's not presented that way it's $150,000 of instant equity when you're buying that business. Mark: Right so for those of you listening you know need to fact check out some of the not … botany is the right field of science and also if Joe's math is correct on that because I don't know if it is. But we'll go with it and the point is there. I think the general rule of thumb that we follow here is a growing business that's kept on a cash basis is going to understate their discretionary earnings and their gross profit generally speaking. And a business in decline that is on cash basis generally overstates their discretionary earnings if they're not putting money back in the inventory at that point. So those are the basic rules of thumb. Keep in your mind there's exceptions; there are always. I think this is been a long podcast right now. We have not been timing it. We're probably around the 45 minute mark. Joe: Hopefully you guys are still awake. If there's any questions that came up during the podcast shoot us an email inquiries@quietlightbrokerage, mark@quietlightbrokerage, joe@quietlightbrokerage, anybody's first name for the most part @quietlightbrokerage.com. Mark: That's right and this format of an episode … normally, of course, we'd like to bring on guests and the friends of Quiet Light Brokerage onto the show and we have more of those coming up here in the near future. We've got some pretty good guests coming up. But we wanted to start spring cleaning some of these episodes where it's just Joe and I talking or maybe we'll talk with somebody else within the company not to really give a background on them but to give insights or some of the ways that we attack some of the issues that come up when buying or selling an online business. Give us feedback on this, please. We'd love to hear it. You can send an email like Joe said to mark@quietlightbrokerage or joe@quietlightbrokerage or if you don't want us to know and you just want to complain about us send it over to jason@quietlightbrokerage.com and he's god at keeping secrets so you can complain to him. Joe: Sounds good. Thanks, Mark I appreciate your time.   Links: Learn the Value of your Business www.quietlightbrokerage.com inquiries@quietlightbrokerage.com joe@quietlightbrokerage.com mark@quietlightbrokerage.com

Once upon a time I (Joe) had an AdWords PPC budget that hit $45,000 a month. Over 5 years I learned AdWords on my own, had no training, a half dozen campaigns and a handful of ad groups. I thought I was pretty savvy and successful. This was about 10 years ago and to be frank, I'm older, wiser, more seasoned and would tell my 10-year younger self that I was a novice and wasting a TON of money. Don't be like me. Since 2010 I have heard dozens of entrepreneurs tell me they outsourced their paid advertising unsuccessfully. So when Jason Yelowitz introduced me to Strike Social Founder I was a little skeptical. But success and growth speak for themselves. Patrick McKenna boot strapped Strike Social from his kitchen table in a rented home in LA about 5 years ago. In 2016 Strike Social was named on the Inc. 500 List for the fastest growing companies. Their rank? Number 17! Strike Social helps brands improve their paid advertising campaigns, dramatically. One example Patrick gives is an ecommerce company that had their CPA go from $80 dollars to $16. This created great problems for the client. The first was rapid growth and much better margins. The second was access (or lack thereof) to monies for inventory. As you likely know – running out of inventory is an issue. Rapidly growing brands lack access to capital, run out of inventory and lose ground on the path to growth. Strike Social does a free analysis of a client's paid ad campaigns, a free test, and when the client comes on board and grows so fast they don't have funds for enough inventory, Strike will provide working capital for inventory. If it weren't for the rank of number 17 on the Inc. 500 list and the fact that you don't get there without proving yourself, I'd say it all seems too good to be true. After chatting with Patrick on today's Podcast, I say try them out get a free review. At the very least you'll learn what you are doing right and wrong in your own paid advertising campaigns. Episode Highlights: Instagram's paid advertising platform is the next Facebook. It's working. In Google AdWords you should have 1,000+ campaigns, not 6. Facebook is content driven and ads need constant testing. Video ads in Facebook can be as short as 3-4 seconds. YouTube is great, but not for direct conversations and CPAs. Strike Social developed technology recognized by Techcrunch.com that helped propel them to #17 on the Inc. 500 list. Strike Social will provide working capital to clients so they can ramp up inventory to match growth. Transcription: Mark: So one of the things that I find most difficult and frustrating about running a business in today's internet world is this idea of having these coordinated campaigns across multiple channels and multiple platforms, and the degree to sophistication which you need to run each campaign across each platform. For example with Facebook and Google, it's not so much to do just [inaudible 00:01:25.5] a couple of key words and hoping everything works for Facebook bring up a couple of ads and hoping it works. You really have to delve in and get super detailed. I understand Joe that you talked to somebody today that's doing this for a living. And they started a company and not only have they just started and are doing well but they're ranked really high in the Inc. 500 list specializing in running these cross-platform campaigns that are really highly refined. Joe: Yeah. It's Patrick McKenna from Strike Social and about five years ago he bootstrapped a company, he was literally working from the kitchen table in a rented house in Los Angeles. And he developed software that would analyze paid advertising campaigns and then go way beyond what you normally do in an excel file and so on and so forth. Standard stuff right? Well, that's what I thought when he was introduced to me by our very own Jason Yellowitz, they're neighbors. Patrick's company Strike Social in 2016 was ranked number 16 … no number 17 on the Inc. 500 list. And I think you and I have talked about this that that's impressive, number 17 on Inc. 500 list, you don't get there by accident. You don't get there without being really really good at what you do. Over the years, the last six years that I've been doing what I'm doing I talked to dozens and dozens and I might want to say hundreds that [inaudible 00:02:49.9] of people that started their own Google Ad Account and developed it as their business grew and managed it themselves and then got to a point where they said you know what I should outsource this. And they found somebody online and they outsourced it and what happened? It failed. That cost for acquisition went up, the budget went up and they had to bring it back in-house. Dozens of times I talked to these folks. So when I first connected with Patrick I was skeptical but then we talked, went into detail and he gave me some success stories that are really truly just incredible Mark to the point where I need you to listen to this podcast and consider talking with him about Quiet Light Advertising. They do testing for free. They do an analysis with their software and they'll do a test for free as well. And then they prove themselves and then like every other agency they get paid on a percentage of spend. But here's the kicker they've taken some clients and grown their businesses so dramatically that clients run out of inventory. That's the number one thing we tell folks is don't run out of inventory. It seems so simple but when people bootstrap the company and they grow they don't have enough working capital. And I've listened to other podcast, you know the EcommCrew Mike Jackness podcast where they talk about trying to find sources of working capital for inventory. Well, Strike Social will be that source for their very own clients. Because they've run into it so many times where it was so successful the client ran out of funds to buy more inventory. So they became that working capital source. So really impressive story, I would encourage everyone to listen all the way through to the 31 minute mark where he starts to talk about the working capital aspect of it. But there's a lot of good stuff here. He talks about some basic things that everyone should do. A quick story and then I'll stop talking. But when I ran my own Google AdWords campaign for the company that you brokered for me back in 2010, the most I ever spent was $45,000 in one month on paid advertising. I worked my way up that, up up from that in 2005 to 2010. Of course, after the crash, it was much lower but at the max … at the peak, I had a total of 10 campaigns set up in Google AdWords. And I had it all done with my keywords and I used all the software at the time to find those keywords and develop them; 10 campaigns. So in talking with Patrick, he talks about that their clients have an average of 1,000 to 6,000 campaigns and that's for one product, Mark. And that just makes me think about … again, yet again how much money I lost in two ways, really on wasted advertising spending and on not making it so good that my cost for acquisition came down dramatically. And I just want to encourage everyone that's listening to think about it and listen to what they're saying and have a conversation with them because odds are you're not doing it as well as you could be if you're doing it yourself. Just like what we talked about with book keeping, Excel is not accounting software. The basic pieces that you pull together for managing your campaigns across multiple platforms is not as good as what these guys have either. And it's worth to listen to him, worth a test I think in my opinion and experience. Mark: Yeah and I really have to agree with the fact that if you're doing it in-house and look I'm running some campaigns in-house right now for both companies that I own. That for a variety of reasons … but you have to understand if you're going to run it in-house, if you're not going to have a specialist, chances are you're not going to be doing it as well as it could be done. Because AdWords is an environment that really takes specialization. Facebook is an environment that really takes specialization. Frankly, I'm saying up a good automation sequence falls in the same category as well. So I'll be interested to listen to this. I definitely will be listening to this. I'm always looking to pick up on some information. Joe: Yeah and look Instagram is also in there as well. It's something we talked about. You know when AdWords was it that was the player Facebook came along and started to become the second option. Well, Instagram is now that option to Facebook and it's really starting to work. So those that have not expanded to those channels, listen, take a look, learn. And the other thing look this wasn't a pitch for this guy's services. This was helping people understand what they may or may not be doing right or wrong in their campaigns. And he talks about three things that you can do and focus on. And at the end Mark, I didn't ask him for a contact information like at all. It's in the show notes of course but for those that only listen the company is Strike Social. It's strikesocial.com and you can email them at hello@strikesocial.com that's hello@strikesocial.com it's a … we didn't talk about it at the end so I want to throw it in now. Mark: Awesome well let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks its Joe Valley of Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Patrick McKenna with us from Strike Social. How are you, Patrick? Patrick: I'm good. How are you, Joe? Joe: I'm fantastic. Folks, anybody that knows Jason Yellowitz here at Quiet Light, you should, he's been around for I think longer than everybody except for Mark Daoust the founder of Quiet Light. Jason was my broker when I sold back in 2010 and he happens to live across the street from you right? Patrick: That's right we live in Reno, he's right across the street. Kids are always running in my house. Joe: Jason is a good man and I wouldn't mind having him as a neighbor. I often poke fun at Jason and his Bathrobe Millionaire book but it's a heck of a success story and I still don't have a piece of the bathrobe. Have you ever seen it laying around his house? Did he save it? Seriously is it like behind like a glass case hanging on the wall? Patrick: It's on the mantle sitting up there. He's very proud of that. Joe: Next time you're in I want you to take a selfie in front of it and send it to me okay? Patrick: [inaudible 00:08:47.7] Joe: Look in all seriousness Jason is top notch. He's my mentor. He's mentored to many. He's a terrific guy. And he introduced you to us. And as I mentioned before we started recording we do not do fancy introductions here at Quiet Light on the Quiet Light Podcast so I know it's going to be hard for you but I want you to brag about yourself a little bit because you have a heck of a success story. Tell us about Strike Social and what you do, what the background is and all that good stuff for us. Patrick: Sure, yeah we … you know Jason and I are sort of kindred spirits. We've been through the battle, it sounds like you have too … I mean a business is incredibly challenging. We did it like anyone else does it. We take the plunge, you bootstrap on a kitchen table out of our rental house in LA. And we started that process in March of 2013 and then we launched some technology and we got recognized in TechCrunch for this advertising technology, this analytics platform. By November after that article came out we're selling like crazy and that was some different challenges. You think initially that wow this is great and that my products rate and the market loves it. And then you start to realize that you're putting yourself out of business because you're trying to fund invoices and all those types of things that come up when you're running a business. So we went through all that stuff, raised a little money in 2014, raised a little bit more in 2015 and it's standed globally and by 2016 we're recognized in Forbes Fast 500 fastest growing companies in the US. Joe: What number were you? Patrick: Number 17. Joe: 17 out of 500? Patrick: Yeah. Joe: That's incredible. Patrick: Pretty amazing. That was up 2016 revenue numbers and we're excited to see where we land this year for Fortune List. It will be the 2018 release that will be 2017 numbers so- Joe: Got you. Patrick: It's that it so. Joe: It sounds exciting and painful all the same time. You've literally started on a kitchen table at a rental in LA. and then grew the business, bootstrapped it from there. Probably like many of the listeners who are you know the listeners that are sellers and entrepreneurs and listeners that are hoping to step into the entrepreneurial role that you're playing now. That's pretty incredible. Tell us about what Strike Social does and who your typical customers are. Patrick: Right. So initially we went out to the largest agencies in the world and we sold execution services around advertising. So initially we started with YouTube now we're across all the social platforms and search as well. But we would basically like take on and execute buys for their largest customers. So our customers will be X-box in PNG and pick any Fortune 100 brand, the big guys. And then we started doing that here in the US then we went to Asia and then went to Europe and I don't know if you know who the holding companies are but you know WPP [inaudible 00:12:17.3], the big guys that I mostly don't talk to a smaller company. So it was really nice to have that reign for us to go sell in to and it was a really profitable situation for us. And we kept building technology and investing in technology and people and locations. We have a location here in Chicago where we're headquartered. And then we have a location in Poland and a location in Manila. We've got about a hundred people here now and we've got boots on the ground from Japan, and Korea, and Australia, obviously the US, Singapore, Europe. So it's been a really really fun ride and yes you go through all of the emotional ups and downs of running a business when you're buying one. Joe: Yeah. Good problems with that kind of growth, really good problems. Talk to me about the technology that you developed that originally got you recognized in I think you said TechCrunch and you said analytics platform. Can you talk about the actual service and why someone would use … like why these B2B advertising agencies would use yours versus having an expert in-house do it. What does it do and what's different about it that made you the 17th fastest growing company in 2016? Patrick: Yeah I think when video first came out I think it was really challenging for companies to understand, it is kind of a new medium, how do I be successful here? So our analytics platform so they showed them how to be successful. But what we did is we executed the media guys. So we look like a typical agency, we don't really like that word because we built software solution to help us with that. And then overtime what we've done is we built this incredible artificial intelligence box that allows us to go across platform, plan and execute strategies. And so it's all … it's a human and technology solution combined. And like I talked about advertising now it's a complicated orchestra. And what you need at the end of that is execution so … and we can talk about that more but it's very challenging to stay up to date on these platforms and you need a partner and a technology solution to really execute and do well. Joe: Okay. And you started out with YouTube, so at that time there were not a lot of experts in the field of buying advertising, buying that advertising space on YouTube. Patrick: That's right. Joe: You know when I … when Jason sold my business back in 2010 I was spending a boatload of money on Google AdWords and I learned it from the ground up. I did it myself starting in 2005 and I … at one point I never had any training so I can't imagine how much money I wasted over the years. I mean it was a point where I topped out at spending $45,000 a month. I mean Jason loves to tell the story of how I got mad at American Express because I went above my average so I cut my advertising in half and it's the stupidest thing I've ever done. But I did it because I got mad. It is a ton of money; I blew a ton of money by not being the expert. But you guys learned that expertise in terms of buying ad space on YouTube and then you expanded to the other social media platforms. So are you now doing paid ads on Google AdWords, on Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, things of that nature? Patrick: Absolutely DBM, Amazon, all the ones- Joe: What would DBM mean? You got me right there. Patrick: Sorry … Doubleclick Bid Manager is Google's DSP solution to get the rest of the web that's not … that you can't do in AdWords. Joe: And what's DSP stand for? Patrick: Digital Supply-side Platform, so that's how Google goes and buys display advertising on say the [inaudible 00:16:36.9] within New York Times. Joe: Okay. Patrick: Yeah. So it's another Google product. It's part of their Google Suite and actually it's interesting that you bring that up that's … that they had a tagging solution there that … and we find this a lot in companies that are running small businesses on just AdWords that you can get really good multi variant testing on that platform rebuilt technology to allow you to expand that. I don't know how extensive you got with your test. But one campaign maybe you have 40 different variables, maybe you're really good and you get up to a hundred. We'll do like 6,000 with their technology. Joe: Wow. Patrick: So yeah we're testing age, demo, interest, topic, keywords- Joe: Let's get really down to it. People that are listening, their ears might be perking up and this is why we're talking because you don't get to be number 17 on the Forbes fastest growing companies by screwing up. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Because you wouldn't have the clients that would be referring and helping you grow your business further. Patrick: That's right. Joe: So my initial thought as I said on our first call was more often than not I do valuations and exe-planning for people and see that they were doing fine on their own advertising. Managing it themselves and then outsourced it and it totally blew it up as in bang and their cost for acquisition went up. And usually, in my experience, it's not a great thing. Your success in having people use your services changes my mind. So let's talk about specifically we've got folks that are … was their physical product owners and of course there's content as well but I think you said you don't really do a whole lot of content stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong but let's say we've got physical product owners that are mostly because of the crazy growth on Amazon doing Amazon sponsored ads our advice is always go well beyond Amazon grow your business so it's not one revenue channel. Your value is going to be higher but they are challenged with how to do that. So do you do an analysis on a business and you're looking at Facebook advertising for that physical products, do you take over the Amazon, sponsored ads, do you do Instagram all of these things? Patrick: Yes, all of them. And you know what before we start with any business we start with an audit to get to a genuine conversation. You'd say okay here in the platforms you're on tell us about your objectives, lets pull your data into a dashboard that you'll own and take possession of. And more so you … where we see some quick wins and easy gaps and then we'll go take you know what if you like what we're saying we'll go run a test for free to see if we can improve what you're doing. Joe: How much is the cost of the audit that you do? Patrick: It doesn't cost anything. Joe: Okay the audit is free and the test is free. Patrick: The audit is free, the test is free. That's right and we just rolled out this … the reason I'm talking to you and I'm just talking to Jason about this is you know we just rolled out this Strike Marketing Partnership. You know we have a very large e-commerce company under our belt right now and we are able to take that business and improve their cost per lead from $80 to $16 and it really grow their business. They were able to- Joe: Were they profitable at $80? Patrick: Yes. Yeah, they were. Joe: Okay. Patrick: Dramatically improved their numbers and now they're on a path to being a billion dollar company. Joe: And so you took it from $80 cost per lead … was it cost for lead or cost for acquisition or both? I guess it doesn't matter but you took it from 80 to 16 and then where they able to use the same budget or I mean- Patrick: They were able to increase it. Yeah you see that's the key and I think the one point I want to make Joe is that we are entrepreneurs here and we're in the advertising marketing space and like one of the guys that's on our staff started panatea until he started the March Air Movement and sold it to a very large Japanese company because he doesn't need to work. But he's passionate about entrepreneurs, entrepreneurship and he's an expert in building that brand. And when you said content you know content is critical in … when you start talking about AdWords and multi variant testing you can't apply that same learning over to Facebook. It's a completely different platform. Everything is grouped together. You have to be a little bit patient and let Facebook find that first customer for you. And then it starts to learn who your customer is and it's started in and it's off to the races. But if you're open at that platform and if you're doing it the same way you're doing it on AdWords whether it's YouTube or just AdWords so you're not going to perform there, you're just … you're not doing it right. Joe: Okay. Patrick: So- Joe: What are in that Amazon Seller account? Do you guys handle the sponsor ads as well? Patrick: That's right yeah and we have a seat on Amazon so we have a partnership with them. Seat means that we get a seat. Joe: You know I was going to ask that. Patrick: Yeah sorry. I can see it on your face, what's a seat? Joe: Okay. Patrick: And seat that means that we're in their partner program and we can log into their technology and buy inventory at stale. Joe: Sure. Patrick: So … yeah and that means we also have a rep, and that's the other thing to is that these platforms change all the time. And one of the recent ones was GDPR it's made a … GDPR oh. Joe: Come on now GDPR what's that? This is going to be the acronym show. What is it? Patrick: Yeah the acronym … I'm sorry, I spend a lot of time in advertising so you know neither all … there are all things … GDPR is a … it's a European Union situation where the user is in control of their own data. Joe: Okay. Patrick: And the platforms, you have to basically ask permission or I think you've probably seen on sites you go to now. They're saying a. so do you like content, you need to accept my cookie. And if you're in someone's database right now and you have a European client in your database you needed to e-mail them and say hey by the way I need you to okay the fact that you're in my database. Initially, don't do that, I mean don't be that; you can get fined significantly. Joe: Most of our … the people in the audience, the people that are listening I shouldn't say most I mean it's anywhere from somebody doing a hundred thousand a year in revenue to you know 40 to 50 million in revenue. So it's all over the map there a little bit. Let's give some stuff away for free here that I don't want this to be obviously you do the evaluation and you do the test for free. And then let me just answer that; let's answer the quick question because people are going to say well what happens after that? Do you get paid on a commission basis part of the advertising how does it … part of the advertise you spent? Patrick: Yeah I think that's why we fall in that advertising agent bucket because we get a percentage of the media. Joe: I did the same back in my Media Mind days when I used to buy time on radio; percentage of what you're spending. Patrick: There you go. Joe: And about the job you do on that cost for acquisition the more you're able to spend because the budget goes up. So it is the right- Patrick: Portion. Joe: Way to do it. Yeah. All right so let's talk about that aside do you have any sort of hot tips? What can someone do just on their own looking at their own advertising budget in whatever platform you want to talk about? Patrick: Sure. Joe: Give away some tips or what can somebody do that's using … let's start with Google AdWords. What's the biggest mistake people make and how can they fix it? Patrick: Yeah I think that one of the biggest mistakes, I mean you can kind of take this across all platforms is trying to figure out the audience and the actual attribution and then finding the adjacent audience. So I'll give you an example, and our artificial intelligence does this. The idea is that you need to expand your audience. So you find an audience that gives you a high lifetime value and you recognize that in keywords or interest in Google AdWords. For example, you might be targeting 18 to 54 year olds in AdWords. You need to break each one of those segments up and realize that 18 to 24 year olds aren't interested in the same thing as a 45 and through 54 right? So if you're trying … if you're targeting people who are interested in the NFL, the 18 year olds that also have that same interest are interested in the UFC. And so you have to find those adjacent audiences to lower your cost of acquisition. Does that make sense? Joe: Yeah. Patrick: You expand the reach of the audience size and that's something that our technology does and our big people are doing that. Joe: Okay so it's finding out their like audiences. I always hear something on the Facebook algorithm in the paid advertising part of that similar audience or look alike audience, is that what we're talking about? Patrick: Kind of, on Facebook it's different. So AdWords is a multi-variant test platform. You're basically setting up … hopefully, you're setting up somewhere between 10 and 150 different campaigns. We're going to set up about 1,000 to 6,000. Joe: I think I had five or six and I had multiple things underneath there. So you're talking about 1,000 to 6,000 campaigns? Patrick: What was what was your target audience age range? Joe: From the women 25, 54 but I honestly can't recall if I even know. No, not much. I don't want to talk about that because I lost a whole lot of money the more we talk about it. Patrick: Oh my gosh. Joe: Wasted money. But you're doing a thousand campaigns inside of Google Ad Words? Patrick: You can [inaudible 00:17:10.1]. That's the only way, get out to get that. No, no, no, that's my product. That's the only way to get down to how am I going to expand this audience? What does this audience …. what is this audience also interested in? So it … what you basically said, what you told the platform was I want women 18 to 54 is that what you said, 18 to 54? Joe: 25, 54 but- Patrick: 25 and 54 and you basically said they all have the same interest and they don't. Joe: No they don't. Patrick: And they're not even on the same device. So you've got to break it out by device; tablet, mobile, desktop. And you've got to break it out by each age group. You've got to break it out by each interest. And you got to break it out by each keyword. Because if you don't get that data in there you're science is [inaudible 00:28:04.6] value is. Joe: Okay so someone doing this on their own in an Excel spreadsheet doing … think they're doing fairly well odds are that they could be doing a whole lot better. Patrick: Basically. Joe: Right. Another … okay so the tip there was I keep, I want to call it look alike audiences but it's not. Patrick: Just call it multi-variant testing. In AdWords, you've got to multi-variant test, and you've got to get as granular as possible to get the learnings out of that, out of that platform. Joe: Multi-variant testing, okay. Patrick: Yes. Joe: Second so the tip, the next thing you'll sit down and tell somebody to look at? Patrick: So on Facebook, it's completely different. You can't, you have to bucket everyone together and then as soon as Facebook finds you that acquisition and that's you know obviously Facebook and Instagram then it starts to learn okay now I know who you're looking for and it starts to find all the people that look alike. That's where the look alike part comes in. Facebook's AdWord is working in the background to figure that out. When we first set out it might be looking at your return and saying oh my gosh I'm doing way better on AdWords. You have to stick with it. And one of the things that we see as well is that you have a longer sign up or click to buy solution in your platform. What you'll see is people will start that buy on Facebook and they'll get to your form and realize that they don't have enough time for this and they need to go sign up on the desktop. And they'll go to Google search, look up your brand and you have to be able to do that. And that's where that DCM code comes in to play; from double click. Joe: Okay. Patrick: It actually digi up and see the assist on Facebook to AdWords, give the credit to Facebook that was the person who … that's where they saw the ad. They'll just go in to the desktop to finish filling it out Joe: Okay. Patrick: That makes sense? Joe: I did evaluation maybe three weeks ago for someone that back in the first quarter they reduced tremendous volume in their business by Facebook advertising. And then the algorithm update hit in I think April, you know by May. And they went from let's say a half a million a month in revenue to 40,000 a month in revenue. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Incredibly painful. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: They then jumped to Google AdWords and made adjustments on Facebook. But that type of algorithm update how do you and how does your agency … [inaudible 00:30:34.3] agency, how does your service address that, fix that, take care of that, and make sure that your clients are not going to be suffering from that major algorithm update that Facebook seems to be doing on a regular basis? Patrick: Yeah, it's a good point Joe I mean we're all sort of at the mercy of the changes that happen. That update may have been Facebook's response to Cambridge Analytics which was kind of like on the back end of that GDPR stuff I was talking about. So they have made changes and all these platforms change all the time. What we had is like when I was talking about Amazon with the seat, we're in Facebook's Ad Manager; we have a Facebook rep so we … those changes come to us before. Hey look here's how you're going to have to set these campaigns up in the future to be successful. Be prepared for this, this is going to be our algorithmic change and they'll never tell you what's in the science behind it. But you bring up a valid point about Facebook; it is a very content rich platform. You have to be testing instead of multi variant testing, different light items of campaigns. What you're really doing there is your multi-variant testing creative. So you have to look at an audience and you have to understand is the audience tired of my ad? They're seeing the same ad over and over again. Are they tired of that ad or is the audience exhausted with my product? They don't want it anymore and I have to go somewhere else. But typically what we're doing in Facebook is a lot of creatives popping. So well create a slot, 15 different pieces of creative image a week period [inaudible 00:32:19.0]. Joe: So with AdWords the campaigns you could have a thousand plus potentially. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Maybe at least 6,000 with Facebook it's more about the creative and fifteen different creatives over a two week period. Patrick: Yeah that's right. Joe: And then you'll continue to test that and swap it out to just continually monitoring the click rate and conversion rate. Patrick: That's right. Joe: What about video on Facebook is that something you're doing and recommend? Patrick: Yeah you know [inaudible 00:32:46.1] there are working really well, there's video component in there. But yeah we're seeing great conversion off of short video. And you know you … on that creative side you have to have high quality images and the videos don't have to be very long; two, three … three to six seconds perfectly in there. Joe: I think the quality I think the audience gets because that's the number one thing in terms of their own website and the Amazon seller accounts is top quality photos that should be the first thing. All right so we talked about Google AdWords, we talked about Facebook, any other thoughts in terms of you sitting down with somebody having a drink and what they should look at if they're running an e-commerce paid advertising campaign? Patrick: Yeah I mean actually on the paid advertising side I … you just have to keep exploring the platform's interest, is that really good … if you know how to use that platform it's becoming a very good conversion platform. And it's interesting when you start to see these new platforms come out typically because they're new there's not a lot of complex decision there so if you can … it's kind of a land grab. It's kind of like what Facebook did to Google. Facebook was a new platform, they finally got their Ads Manager to work properly and Power Editor is what they call it. And people have done really really well. Same thing is happening with Pinterest now. They've got their advertising technology and algorithm is starting to do really well in the backend of collecting data and saying oh this person who bought this is also buying this and they look alike kind of thing. Pinterest is becoming a CPA platform. Joe: Okay, so AdWords, Facebook, Pinterest … and when we say AdWords when we say that we are talking about Google content searches plus I assume were talking about YouTube looped in there as well. Patrick: Yeah YouTube is very tough in terms of direct conversing. What you have to do on YouTube is you use YouTube as a mid-funnel driver to your branded keyboard search. So I know that that sounds challenging but your creating an awareness campaign but you're looking at how that's driving cheap CPA in AdWords because it's your brand and that costs less than say some generic term that like clubs or something like that; whatever you're selling. Joe: Okay. So when you work with a client do you work on … obviously, you've got a budget that you work on, goal setting with either cost per lead or cost per acquisition things of that nature. People … my point is that I know that when I was in the audience is just listening thinking about hiring someone that I was worried that they're going to blow up my budget on it. Patrick: Oh yeah. Joe: Do you work with them on all those goals as well? Patrick: Oh absolutely and everybody is logged in. We're typically buying on your account so nothing's getting taken out of there. And again like everything starts with that audit. But back to your point about I think what entrepreneurs do is they need that margin or store ad to be really high to afford the inventory. And what we go about with Dave and some of the other entrepreneurs here is we want to help you with that. So we'll [inaudible 00:36:19.8] with you so that you can take a little bit more risk on the advertising side. And we talked about this a little bit before the show and it's what I talked to Jason about- Joe: Yeah let me just jump in and get to the point so people understand. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Part of the biggest problem that a bootstrapped physical products company has is amazing growth and lack of capital to buy more inventory; they're growing at 100% month over month, year over year. And they're taking all of that working capital and putting it right back in inventory and just trying to keep up. And what I do or anybody at Quiet Light does evaluation for that business we talk about planning. One of the simplest things to be more profitable is just don't run out of inventory. But it's kind of hard because they run out of money and can't keep up with that growth. So what you're talking about is as an agency, as a firm, as a partner- Patrick: As a partner. Joe: You're willing to work with them and lend them money to buy that inventory. Patrick: That's right. When we went from $80 to $16 CPL, we broke our partner's logistics. That … I can sum up what you're talking about in just amazing growth; we have the same problem. So you don't have enough capital, no bank is going to give you a decent loan, your business is too young in the first three years and so we recognize that. We're able to look at your advertising and we'll tell you what we can do on the execution side. But we have to make sure that you have the logistics down in the inventory to go take those risks. And we want to take those risks with you. So overall it's to grow your business as big as you possibly can. So that's the goal. That's how we make money. Joe: It's [inaudible 00:38:11.9] it's not all that different from Quiet Light, we're here to help. We have that … sometimes that stigma of oh you're a broker and that was the hardest thing for me going from entrepreneur owning my own business to entrepreneur that's a broker advisor is that those entrepreneurs they say you know I never want to sell my business. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want you to talk me into something. But we are here to help and help you grow your business and build that relationship so that when you plan to sell you'll exit and you'll exit well. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And what you're doing is the same thing is you're helping more than anything else. Of course, you're a business trying to make a living too and obviously doing it very well. But you're going to do the audit for free, you're going to do the test for free. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: And then you're going to dramatically reduce that cost for acquisition or cost for lead whatever the case might be in what the parameters are that you set with the client. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And they're going to have a problem which is dramatic growth and they're not going to be able to keep up with the inventory. They probably already can't keep up with the inventory purchasing and you're going to be there to help fund the inventory purchases and keep this growing which allows you to spend more money on their behalf and a great cost really a great cost for acquisition and make more money for yourself along the way as well. Patrick: Yeah. When we started our company we did it on American Express and Google AdWords buy in YouTube. It [inaudible 00:39:37.5] credit card every $700, so you know I feel your pain that you were feeling and we get it and it's real. Growth is tough to manage; very tough to manage. So for me, I like to consider myself sort of a scaling expert whether that embodies locations and sales. I'm good at that. I mean there are people here that will just do that … building a brand from scratch and selling it for hundreds of millions of dollars. Joe: That's amazing that you get that kind of talent that is choosing to work with you. It's kind of a great working environment for these folks. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Ok look I never have to work again for the rest of my life but you're making it fun and we're changing people's lives so let's go ahead. Patrick: Yeah and think about Joe, I meant it's exciting. I mean you're in this business because you get to meet really interesting other entrepreneurs. And they all bring something interesting to the table. When they take a nap on we've all been in that battle together and this is a new sort of idea like why are you doing this so- Joe: It's great. Patrick: Yeah it's got to be a part where we're really excited about it and happy to bring it to the market. Joe: Yeah listen, I want to end it here simply because people should be reaching out to you. It's a very least they're going to learn something in the review process. They're going to learn at the very least what they're screwing up on, what they're doing wrong, and what they can do. Choose to do it themselves or- Patrick: Anything works, that's right. Joe: Have you test it and prove that you can do it better than they can. And then they can free themselves up for other things as well like additional product development and clean documentation on their financials. So I say that in every podcast episode hire a good [inaudible 00:41:23.0]. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And one priest, they've heard me preach before. Patrick listen thanks for being on the show. Thanks for taking time out of your day I know you're very busy. We'll go ahead and get this produced get it out to folks and share it with you as well so you can share it with your team. Patrick: Joe thanks for having me. Joe: It's great man, thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Patrick: All right man, take care. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast for more resources from this episode head over to quietlightbrokerage.com. If you're enjoying the show please leave a rating and review on iTunes. This helps share the messages from the show with more business owners like you.   Links: Free review and test: hello@strikesocial.com Inc. 500 Ranking Strike Social

AFTS Cast: Kurt, Chris, Bridget, Kelly and Joe Come along for the ride as our new band of adventurers continues to investigate what’s going on at the town of Valshond.  They’ve uncovered a few clues, as well as many of the items missing from the town. What’s next? Let’s listen in. Enjoy the podcast! Like … Continue reading AFTS DW-ANF3 – Bird Watching →

AFTS Cast: Mickie, JJ, Kurt, Chris, and Joe Come on into The Shed and have a seat with Mickie, JJ, Kurt, Chris, and Joe as we officially kick off our newest Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition campaign.  We’re using the Pathfinder Adventure Path; Curse of The Crimson Throne for this one.  Enjoy the podcast! Like … Continue reading AFTS-COTCT-1-You Peeps Are Like-Minded →

After a three week hiatus. John, Deuce, and Joe Come are well rested and ready to make you laugh. John lays out the rules of social media as it pertains to Exhibitionists and Lurkers. Deuce has stories from his California trip. And there a ton of crazy news stories to discuss. Nonsense in the News It's okay to be White Doctor Breaks Up With Boyfriend Because He complained About Her Vagina Smell Woman 'caught giving man oral sex on Delta flight' Restaurant Uses Pre- And Post-Transition Caitlyn Jenner Photos As Bathroom Signs Man, high on ecstasy burns own genitals while trying to have sex with electric fence Former substitute teacher accused of having sex with her student Be part of the show. Time’s Yours is where you get to interact with John, Deuce, & Joe. Call Line (856) 322-2473 or from your computer or Phone use Speak Pipe and you can email us brandxpod@gmail.com We are proud to be a part of the following Podcast Networks Radio Vegas Rocks Mondays 8am Eastern / 5am Pacific Thursdays 4pm Eastern 1pm Pacific Slings Flings and Dingalings Wednesday 8:00pm Eastern Hush Your Face Network Get Your Brand X Podcast Gear!! Podcast Shoutouts: Evening Radio Podcast Bad Cop Bad Cop The Whonan Podcast Toe on the Trigger The Story Behind Unwritable Rant Horribly Awkward Podcast Everyone Has A Podcast Ped and Mellor Rob and Slim Who’s Right The Bro-Ron’s Podcast To find other great independent podcasts search the hashtag #Podernfamily and if you have a podcast you enjoy please share on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram with #Podmosphere. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please SUBSCRIBE on iTunes | Stitcher | Google Play | RSS and leave a rating and or review. This warms our heart and makes us smile. Please, we would love it if you joined in on the conversation! Find us on: Twitter | Facebook | Instagram Deuce on Twitter | John on Twitter  

In which Erik and our special guest host Joe (two grown men) argue about whether Magic: The Gathering is better than the Pokemon Trading Card Game.

AFTS Cast: Mickie, JJ, Kurt, and Joe Come along with our party of heroes as we continue in our Dungeons & Dragons adventure; Curse of Strahd.  Calvin continues to spread the word of Pelor as Tielen and Noctra tag along on the way to the church.  Enjoy the podcast! Like or Share episodes news and … Continue reading AFTS DnD-CoS3 – Have You Heard of Pelor? →