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https://www.llewellyn.com/product.php?ean=9780738775364   Season 5 - Episode 7 ----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca. Mark: And I'm Mark. Yucca: And today, we have an episode I'm actually really quite excited for. It's going to be a little bit different. Mark, you have a book coming out in less than a month. So, yes, at long last, and we're going to talk a little bit about that. So I'm going to ask you some questions, and hopefully this is something that our listeners are going to be really interested in. So, can you Tell us what, what book. Mark: Well, the book is called Round We Dance, Creating Meaning Through Seasonal Rituals, and it's coming out from Llewellyn. It'll be released on April 8th which is also the day of the eclipse, the solar eclipse that's happening here in North America. And Yucca: Get your glasses, Mark: yes, get your Yucca: of totality, you'll still be able to see it if you're in the lower 48. Mark: Yep. Yeah. I have already gotten my glasses. In fact, I ordered them after the last time we talked about this. So, that's, that's the book. It's kind of a follow on book to the Atheopaganism book in some ways. But it's also meant for a broader audience. Yucca: Okay, so it's not branded specifically as atheopagan, but is it, it's branded as pagan in general? Do you say that's Mark: Well, it's, it's, it's not even really branded as pagan in general. Now, in the text of the book, I talk about Atheopaganism. And it's values and practices and ideas among other things. But the book itself is really intended for anyone who doesn't have a spirituality in their life right now and really wants one. You know, for, for folks, for example, who belong to the so called nuns. The, the people that express no religious affiliation, maybe they've left Christianity or Islam or, um, or they're, they're just atheists or agnostics many of those folks who come into our community, the atheopagan community find that they're, they want something that gives their life a sense of meaning and a sense of connectedness to what's happening here on earth and in the universe. In some cases, they want to have a value set that they can impart to their children, Yucca: hmm. Mark: You know, and ritual practices that they can conduct with their families. This book is for those folks. Yucca: Okay. Mark: You know, basically, it's a book for anybody who wants to develop a ritual practice. Yucca: Mm. And what about people who They already identify maybe as atheopagan and are just getting started or looking to deepen their practice Mark: Oh, for sure. Yeah, this, this book, it'll, it'll serve as a great resource for folks like our listeners. Who you know, they have you know, it's like we have the equinox coming up right now, right? So, you know, you can turn to the section about the spring equinox in the book and get some ideas for themes and ritual activities, recipes, craft projects And that's true of all of the Wheel of the Year celebrations. It's true of all of the Rites of Passage. So it, it really goes into some, some degree of extensive coverage of different ritual techniques and reasons for having rituals. Yucca: hmm. So this sounds a lot more like a how to book than your first book, right? The first book you were really digging into the, the what and the sort of intellectual side of things. What's this all about? And this is the how to practice. Mm Mark: That's right. The first book was mostly an idea book. It essentially told the story of how I had gone through, An internal exploration about, you know, what is a religion, and how can I get the benefits of religion without having to believe in the supernatural? You know, how could that work? And then the second part of the book, the first book was about describing atheopaganism as one implementation of a non supernatural religious path. That was focused on the, on the earth. This book is much more, as you say, a how to. It gives lots of examples and and it also talks about, you know, crafting your own individual rituals, ritual skills, like we talked about last week, a week before last. Talks about you know, personal rituals for your, for yourself when you need them, when you want to be confident or you want to be focused, those kinds of things you know, what, what some folks in the pagan community might call spells as well as the seasonal and rites of passage celebrations. Yucca: Great. So how is this structured? Because I've heard you talk about different holidays. Is it based on the wheel of the year? Or do you have a larger structure around that? Mark: There are sections that are about each of those areas. It starts out with kind of an idea section that's called a primer, and it's, talks about what spirituality is and why people have it and about rituals and then it goes into the basics about developing rituals and developing a practice for yourself. And different skills and art forms and so forth that can be used in the course of a ritual practice. And then the second part is about rituals in practice. Occasions for celebrating. Some of those are on the calendar. They're seasonal things. Some of them are like stations in life, particular passages that we make in our lives. There's a section on working with the dead and dying. Personal and healing rituals, building community for sharing rituals and then about just living a life that's consistent with the spiritual practice that's described here in very broad strokes, because everybody's going to have their own implementation of this, right? It's, this isn't a dogma book this is, this is a book of examples and ideas. To help inform people as they craft their own individual practice. And then the last section is called resources. And that is your craft, your recipes, guided meditations, recommended ritual music glossary, a bibliography, those kinds of things. Yucca: Fun. Okay. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Yeah. So there's, there's, there's quite a lot to it. I'm really very proud of this book. I think it came out very well. And and I've been waiting forever for it to come out. Working with a publishing company working with Llewellyn has been great. Let me say my editor has been great. And, you know, the marketing people and all those folks have been really great. But still working with a publishing company is a lot slower than self publishing. Yucca: right. Mark: know, once you've got a manuscript and you've got it all laid out, you can do a print on demand really quickly and, you know, start to get your book out there in the world. So, I actually finished the manuscript on this more than a year ago and I'm, and we're just going to see it April 8th. So, I've been anticipating this for a long time and I'm really excited about it. Yucca: Yeah. So in terms of the writing process, was that very different for you than when you self published? Mark: You know, it was because the, my first book, the Atheopaganism book, that was an expansion of what started out as an essay. There was about a 40 page essay that I wrote as the concepts of atheopaganism were developing in me, as I was discovering things, as I did research about the nature of religion and the evolution of the human brain and all that kind of stuff. I wrote an essay because that's, that's kind of the way that writing is the way that I have a dialogue with myself. Yucca: Mm Mark: So I wrote this essay essentially to kind of get my own thinking straight about, you know, what am I doing here? And what's the rational underpinning for it? And what does that look like? And so I had that essay already, and I was able to bulk that out with a lot of stuff from the blog and additional writing. It wasn't a sit down, develop an outline, and then write to it kind of thing, which this second book is. It's actually my third book. My second book is a collection of poetry called A Red Kiss. But this third book, Round We Dance. I would lock myself in my room and pound away at the keyboard day after day after day until it was finally done. Yucca: And did you have an editor that was waiting for pieces on a deadline or things like that Mark: No, they, they wanted the whole manuscript. So, we made, yeah, we made an agreement. When was it that I had to deliver it? Actually, no, it was longer ago than a year. I think it was the end of October of 2022. Yucca: Mm Mark: Yeah, it was the end of October of 2022 when I delivered the first manuscript. And then, of course, there's editing and grammatical and, you know, reorganizing various sections. As recommended by the editor, there's, so there's a lot of, a lot of pieces that, a lot of processes that go into that. But we've had pretty much the finished thing since last fall, and it's just been a manner of getting to the point where they can print. Yucca: Right. So, they've got other Mark: And the copyright, Yucca: go to the press and everyone who's test to go through it. And yeah. Mark: and you know, they've got to develop the cover art, all those various things. I collected testimonial paragraphs. For people who read the, the advance copy, the, the advance proof you know, with their feedback on it so that they could print those on the back cover, all those sorts of things. I love the cover art. You listening on the podcast, you will not be seeing it, but it's, it, it's really a very handsome book. I'm super pleased with it. Yucca: Yeah. So, what was your favorite part? If you can choose one favorite out of all of this, Mark: Favorite part. Oh boy. All right. I'm going to look at the Yucca: or maybe two, maybe a couple of favorites. And I suppose we should Mark: you know, Yucca: why, why you wanted to make this particular book, right? Because this is quite a different one than your previous works. Mark: sure, sure. I think, you know, one of the things that I really that I really like about the book is at the very beginning where I talk about spirituality and why that's important. I go into the atheopagan principles there as an example of a value set that people can embrace. for their lives to be happier and more meaningful and more kind. So those things I'm, I'm happy about. And also towards the end of the book, before the resource section when I talk about, you know, living the spiritual life engaging with the community and kind of beyond the ritual behavior building community and embodying the, the kind of practices that, and meanings that, that I talk about in the book. So, you know, both of those I think are, are good sections. I, I like them. But of course I would because I wouldn't have submitted them if I didn't. So, your mileage may vary. I really and, and Yucca, you've read the book because you wrote the foreword. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So you may have your own opinions about these things. But let me, let me read a little bit from the introduction. I'm going to do that. Humans thrive when they feel meaning in their lives, joy in living, and connection in community. These days, those things don't just happen. They have to be cultivated. They have to be created. Too often in our modern world, we fill our time with busyness, acquisition of money or possessions. or pursuit of fleeting pleasures. Those can provide a momentary sense of happiness, but they don't last. They're empty calories that soon wear off, which is why alienation and loneliness are so often cited as top concerns in polls about mental health. I've lived some of those struggles. I grew up in a hostile environment and have suffered chronic depression since grade school. Thankfully, it's been in remission for 10 years with good medication and practices. This book is about finding more sustaining nourishment that brings deep contentedness with our lives. The celebration of moments, large and small, that help us to understand our lives as worthwhile and joyous, to feel connected with our fellow humans and creatures, to feel a worthy part of the magnificent universe of which we are a part. A powerful means to these ends is to have a spiritual practice. Maybe that involves activities you perform daily, if that's what you like. Or maybe just a handful of times every year, but having them, practices and rituals that you bring, that bring you into the sense of meaning and connectedness, can mean all the difference between a rather hollow life and one overflowing with moments of joy. Yucca: Beautiful. So that's right at the beginning, right? Right. Mark: kind of what's, what's the point of this book and who's it for? and and I'm very clear in the book that this is This is, this is a book for anybody that's looking for the answers to those kinds of practical questions about how, how can my life feel better? How can I feel more of a sense of purpose and a sense of belonging in life? And I provide examples from atheopaganism, but I'm very clear on multiple occasions in the book, you don't have to do this. You know, you can, you can use all the stuff about the crafting of rituals here to create something that's very, very different than what I have or what atheopagans are practicing. So it's a, it's a more generalized book, I would say. Yucca: Okay. So people could plug this into different kinds of traditions. They might be a member of another tradition that it's about the tools and resources, not, they don't have to necessarily buy into the non theism component of it or things like Mark: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't talk about theism particularly because that's not my thing but The various techniques, for example, like guided meditations and solo journeying kinds of internal meditations and the various phases of developing a ritual all of those things will work for anybody. I'm actually reading a really good book right now about ritual. called Ritual, How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living. That's a great complement to this book, I think. It's by a cultural anthropologist who's specialized in studying ritual throughout the world. And I'm only partway into it, but it provides a real, it and my first book provide a real sort of theory, anthropological underpinning to why the techniques in Round We Dance. Are effective, and why we as humans are the ritual making species, and we're one of the ritual making species. There are a lot of others. And so, you know, we're built for this. Every culture on Earth has ritual practices. And we've lost a lot of that in modernity, and it's good for us to go back to some of it. I don't think it's good for us to go back to it with a lot of supernatural belief around it. That's my personal take but having those kinds of meaningful practices, it just helps people. It helps them to, to live better. Yucca: So is this a book that people could jump into with no background in the area? Could somebody give this to their sister or their cousin or something like that? Mark: yes, yes. And, and that, that is definitely, was definitely at the forefront of my mind as I wrote it. It was not intended to be something where you had to read the atheopaganism book in order to get what's going on in Round We Dance. Which is why I've synopsized some of the material from the Atheopaganism book in Round We Dance, so that it's a standalone volume. My motivation in writing it, other than simply to say to, you know, a much broader audience, Hey, you know, there's something here, there's something here that people are finding of value. You don't have to make that great irrational leap into the supernatural. in order to embrace this stuff in your life in a meaningful way. Um, but also in my mind, there's sort of a, an amorphous idea of kind of an ecosystem of, of informational resources for atheopagans and non theist pagans and so forth. My first book is an example of that, as is this podcast, the Atheopaganism YouTube channel, my blog. The Atheopagan Society, all that kind of stuff and so part of that is kind of a list of books that I, I want to wish into existence for our community that can serve as resources for people and this was the next one on the list the and it incorporates a number of the Things that I think are really important, like it talks about death and dying and working with the dead and the dying and funereal rituals, as well as like naming rituals and passages into adulthood and all that kind of stuff. And so, for example, we've mentioned a couple of times the idea of an Atheopagan Families book. And, you know, that I just think there's a real need for that book. It's just kind of hanging out there waiting to happen. And but this book was the next one. This, this was the the next one that I felt really needed to happen, Yucca: Yeah. Well, that is really exciting that it is. Just around the corner. So it officially releases on the 8th of April, right? But it is available for pre order. Mark: It is. If you go to the Llewellyn website, and we can put a link directly to the page in the show notes you can order it for pre order it's 19. 99. And you'll, you'll get it in the mail in April. Um, I, Yucca: The moment it's just a physical book, right? There isn't an audio version. Okay. Mark: That's right. And to be honest, I don't know that an audio version of this book would be all that useful because so much of it is instructions for craft projects and recipes and, you know, things like that. Where just reading it out loud, probably people are not going to get a lot out of it. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: I don't know, maybe. mean, the first Atheopaganism book had a bunch of that stuff too, and the audiobook is paired with a PDF of downloadable resources that go with the book. that's, that's a way to approach it. What else was I going to say? Oh, I'm, I'm working on organizing a book launch party in the East Bay region of the San Francisco Bay Area. And I'm planning on doing that on the 13th of April, which is a Saturday. Yucca: So that's the Mark: I don't have a location. It's the week after it comes out. Yeah. And presumably Llewellyn can get me books by then. And I can sign books and sell books and do a reading and know, schmooze with people and talk about what the purpose of it is and all that good kind of stuff. But I haven't found a location yet. I haven't really tried yet. So, watch my blog, atheopaganism. org Yucca: something here on the podcast, too, when you know, right? Mark: great. Great, good. It's it's funny, I've dropped into interviewee mode. So, oh, you'll do that. That's great. Thank you. Yucca: Yes. No, we'll make sure to include that, along with the reminders about the Sun Tree Retreat, and other things that are coming up so very, very soon, because this year is slipping away already. Mark: We are in the last month of the first quarter of the year. It's Yucca: It's almost equinox. Mark: over. Yucca: Yeah. That's amazing. Mark: is coming around. And as we record this isn't true in all places, but tonight, we're recording on Saturday, the the 9th. And tonight is when the clocks spring forward and everybody gets all cattywampus for Yucca: Yeah. Mark: of days while they're adjusting to this completely unnecessary aberration in our plot. Yucca: Which, by the way, does not change at the same time as Europe or Australia. They're all different, which is for when you, I teach a lot of classes online and it's just, this whole month is havoc because this, this country doesn't change and this country does, and it's at a different time, and it's, ugh. So, and then, in a few months we'll have to do it all again. Mark: right, Yucca: Because it's not like it's a nice even six months. So, Mark: No, and I sure wish it was. I mean, one of the things that I appreciate about where I happen to be is that the The daylight savings change back in the autumn happens right on top of the midpoint between the autumnal equinox and the winter solstice. So right at hallows time suddenly you're plunged into darkness. And there's It's just kind of cool. You know, suddenly everything, it's like, welcome to the dark time of the year. Boom. There you are. It's dark. Not so much with spring. Yucca: Spring is harder. Mark: I wish that we were, it is. Yucca: Oh, yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: I'm sure people can remember every year I complain about this. I just want us to do away with it. I don't care which one we stick to. Let's just stick to one of the times and knock it off with the going back and forth. And I mean, as a kid, I appreciated the fallback, because for those A couple of days before your body got used to it, it felt like you got to sleep in a little extra before getting up in the cold and getting on the bus and everything, but now I'm just like, no, no, this is just too much of a hassle. Let's, let's all do, like, Arizona. Mark: and it serves no practical purpose. It doesn't increase productivity. It doesn't It doesn't save energy. It doesn't do any of those things. The study on it is, is really assiduous and it does not do any of the things that it was proposed to do when it was first imposed. Yucca: Yeah. But we've got the momentum of it, and changing that is, that's the tricky part, and I think it's hard for one state at a time to do it. I think it just needs to happen on the national level, and then, Mark: Yeah. Well, there are a lot of states that have now passed laws, California is one of them that say that if the federal government changes it and gets rid of Yucca: Then this is what time we will be. Mark: Yes, we, we will go along with that. So, because states can independently change their mind about that. They can make their own time zone rules, which is one of the weird things about our system of government. Yucca: Well, our, our state, every year we have a bill, it makes it pretty far through the legislature, and then it ends up getting blocked by the folks from CRUCIS, because and because they're so close to El Paso, they don't want to be Like, sometimes, like, yeah, they don't want the clocks to, yeah so, Mark: politics is local. Yucca: yep. So, but yeah, I would rather we just stick with Arizona the whole time and then we'd be good. We could just be our little, our little friends. Mark: one of the only ways in which I can think I want us to, like, be like Arizona, but other than the beautiful landscape, I mean, Yucca: I was gonna mention, they have some amazing, yeah, that's a whole different conversation, but some amazing, Mark: we've had our tangent, we've already had our tangent for the for Yucca: I know, I thought we weren't because this was going to be an interview one, but we had it anyways. So, is there anything else that you'd like to let people know about the book, or Mark: You know, Yucca: coming up? Well, Mark: the book, or I closed the kind of narrative section before you get into the resources with a poem called Ecstasy, and I think I'm going to read that as kind of a close. Ecstasy, ever more open, arms flung wide, let the warm, wet wings of your chest be spread. Until barehearted there, only the longing of joy is with you. The sweetness of life's unfolding generosity. They are all there, the great and tiny miracles daily given. A breath, a golden pebble, a scarlet cloud at sunset, the voice of the cosmos singing out to cold space, out to blackness and beginnings, all whirling and singing and spinning, sacred, ever changing. The glory of the world in your heart's red petals there, where first it placed a red kiss in your mother's womb, saying welcome. And that's, that's the life I invite people to share, to build for themselves. Yucca: thank you. Thank you for putting all of the time and energy and love into writing this. So I'm really excited to see it come out to the world. Mark: me too. Well, thank you for having me on. I really appreciate the opportunity. Yucca: Yeah, thanks for joining us. We should do it again. All right. Well, I think next week will be equinox already. Mark: Yeah. Yep. We'll be talking about the equinox. So, so onward it goes. Yucca: On and on. All right. Well, thanks, Mark. Mark: Thanks, everybody. See you next week.   

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Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com Season 5 - Episode 1  ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we are talking about what happens after the frenzy of the holiday season. I know for a lot of people it's kind of a relief because it's very stressful and anxiety provoking, but for others the holidays really are kind of a haven in the midst of winter, and when they end there's sort of a letdown of No more parties, no more decoration, no more booze and sugar, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's hard because it's the coldest, darkest time of the year. Yucca: Right. Mark: So, we're going to talk about that today. Yucca: Yeah. As you were saying that, I was thinking of that feeling that you get when your body, when you've had a bunch of adrenaline in your body, and then it fades, and all of a sudden you're like, oh, Mark: Yeah. Welcome to, welcome to cortisol. Yucca: yeah, now my arms are heavy, now what do I do? Right. Mark: Yeah. I Really resonate with that right now because my work has been extremely busy. I wasn't able to take time, um, in the last two weeks of December. So, really been sprinting and there is that sort of sense now here in, you know, we're recording this on December 30th. On the Saturday, and I, so I get these three days, and I'm in this mode of what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? Because I've been so doing for so long, right? Yucca: Yeah. So I guess this is really a good opportunity to talk about the Well, transitions in general, but especially transition out of the holidays, and also the in between time. We'll come back to this in a minute, but the in between holidays, because at least those of us who follow the Wheel of the Year, we have a lot more holidays than most people do, but there's still these big chunks of time that we're in between, and what do we do during that in between? Bye. Period. I think it's a really potent, powerful time period, but in a very different way than holidays are. Mark: Yes, I agree. And then that leads us into, well, okay, well, when you're not celebrating, because you can't I mean, well, at Yucca: day is a celebration in some ways, but Mark: one level, we can be and hopefully are celebrating all the time because there's a lot to celebrate. But in the times that are between the peaks of that, how do we, how do we live as pagans every day? Yucca: Right. Mark: How do we, how do we enact that in our behavior? How do we choose it in our focus? And are what we pay attention to, um, so we'll be talking about that too. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, I'm really happy that this is coming out on the first of the year. Seems like a good welcome to 2024 kind of thing. Mark: It does. 2024. Can you believe it? Yucca: It no. Mark: No. No. Yucca: time, it feels like a sci fi Year. Does not feel like a real, Mark: That's Yucca: we're actually here. Mark: Yeah. 2024 by Arthur C. Clarke. Yucca: starting with the transitioning out we still have our solstice celebration decorations up, but in the next few days, those are gonna start coming down, and it's gonna be, we still have a lot of wintry things out. So. Because at just the time of year we just like having our wintry things, because that's what's going on, but it's not going to be that solstice, right? It's not that, or Christmas, or whatever it is that it that folks are doing, it's not going to be that anymore. And so there's always kind of a, like a bitter sweetness to taking those things down. Mm Mark: It leaves a void in your home and in your sense of the specialness of the time. My Partner Nemea really gets a lot of psychological benefit out of the Yule tree, the solstice tree. And so we will still keep it up for another couple of weeks. Which means that we always miss the window for the Yucca: Pick up. Mark: company coming to pick it up. Which means I have to chop it into little pieces and fit it into a yard waste bin. But and I keep the trunk for next year's Yule Log, so I have to do some chopping anyway. But You know, this is a moment where the hoopla is fading, and then you're left with, well, we're back to school, we're back to work, and it's gray and cold, Yucca: And this particular year, it's fast since New Year's is happening on a Monday. Everybody's back on a Tuesday. If it was in the middle of the week, then usually things wouldn't start until the next week. But it's like, boom, here we go. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the, one of the jokes that I've always made because my birthday is January 3rd is that my birthday is always the day you go back to work. It's, you know, it's always, it's like, okay, the party's over and now it's time to celebrate me. Right. And it's like, well, we're sick of parties and we're sick of sweets and we're sick of booze. And we're, it's like, we don't want to get together in gatherings. We've been doing that for three weeks. Yucca: And I'm guessing as a kid, even though you're not a December birthday, you still probably got the let's just, this is your, this is your birthday present and your Christmas present all wrapped up to Mark: You know, honestly, I don't remember that happening. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know.  Yucca: And I know a lot of December babies who complain about that. Mark: yeah. Well, I mean, one of the things that's frustrating about it, of course, is that it would be nice to have a holiday some other time through the year because I'm kind of sick of parties and booze and sweets and presents and all that kind of stuff.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you know, and I actually have had half birthday parties a couple of times. On July 3rd. Yeah, so it's like, okay, I'm 46 and a half now. Time to have a party. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: so, anyway, let's talk a little bit about that, that transition, that, that kind of coming down off the peak. Because that's a real thing. I mean, it's a neurochemical thing. It's not just, it's not just something you can necessarily talk yourself out of because there is a change in modality from go, go, go, gotta be festive, gotta be festive, to okay, I have to be able to focus for work now. I have to, you know, I have to take the kids to school all those kinds of sort of more mundane things that get you rooted back into the groove of your, your routine life. Yucca: Mm hmm. Yeah. I think there's potential in when you, because those things are all things that are things you really actually have to do. There's a physical component to those things. And there's an opportunity to take a moment just to be aware of what you're doing as you're doing that. And there's a moment right there for that intention of recognizing, okay, I'm taking down the tree. Right? Or, I'm getting back in the car, first, first day back in the car in the whole year. Just gonna take a few seconds to close my eyes and think about what this means and be conscious of the transition. Mark: Mm hmm. And because it's a Because it's a shift from the out of routine nature of the previous few weeks, it gives you an opportunity to look at your established routine and decide whether that's really what you like. I mean, there are things you don't have a choice about, you do have to take the kids to school, you do have to do grocery shopping and all that kind of stuff, but maybe there are other things in your life that are habitual that you don't necessarily want to continue, or things that you want to add, Yucca: Right? And that's, we talk a lot about how COVID has shaped and changed the world. I think that's one of the places where it really did so many people. It was like an extended period of out of the norm, and several months, years, rockiness of going back to the routine, but getting to go, is this the routine that I want? And for a lot of people, the very, very loud no, Mark: Yeah, Yucca: And not that we're necessarily able to make all the changes that we would like to, but it gave us the opportunity to be aware that it could be different. Mark: well, and the biggest example of that, I think, is that in order to conduct business at all, many businesses had to go to remote Yucca: Mm Mark: And when they went to remote work, workers found they liked it. They didn't like the expense and the time loss and the stress of a commute. They didn't, they, they'd much rather work at home if not full time than certainly part time. And now employers are sort of strong arming many workers to get them back into the office, and the workers are balking. You know. There are tech workers that have moved out of California to small towns in the Midwest, and they're like, I'm not coming to the office, folks. I'm just, I'm not doing it. I mean, I'll, I'll fly in a couple of times a year for some kind of key thing that needs to happen. But, you know, on a daily basis, everything I do is over the wire anyway. So, leave me alone. Let me do my job. Yucca: I have to say, as someone who's pretty rural, to get into town is about an hour for us. So I love it. It makes there's so many things. I have a doctor's appointment coming up this week that I don't, that I don't need. It's just a consultation, right? They don't need to actually take any vitals. So I'm not going to drive anywhere. They're not going to drive anywhere. We're just going to hop on the computer for a minute. Boom. Mark: Yeah, telemedicine is a big deal, and especially for people living in rural areas. The advent of telemedicine is a huge step up in the quality of their care. So, yeah, it's a good thing. Yucca: And education, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: There's so much stuff, you know, I provide it that way, my kids get it, where we can be rural and have access to people all over the world. So, anyways, that's our tangent from returning to normal life. Mark: tangent number one for this episode. Yeah, I mean, we get to reconsider what kind of life do we want to have within the constraints of the things we don't have a choice about. And that is, honestly, That's, that's the definition of freedom, really, you know. Freedom isn't absolute, I can do whatever I want. Freedom is, there are things that are out of my control that are constraints that I'm going to have to meet like having to eat, stuff like that. And then there are other things that I have choices about, and that's where you have liberty. That's where you get to make decisions. Yucca: Well, and if we go with that, you have choices on how you do the required things. Right? So, just using the, you have to eat, well, okay, but I get to choose what, and when, and, you know, all those sorts of things Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: does a, that element is a choice, right? And we can do that with everything in our lives, Mark: Yes. Although Yucca: well, there's, again, there's certain things we do not have control over as individuals, right? Mark: what I was going to say is that when you're in a family situation and you have kids that you're making decisions for, that's another constraint because it's like, you might not want to eat until nine o'clock at night, but if their bedtime is seven, then you need to make sure that they're fed. They're just things you don't have a choice about, right?  Yucca: But how do you respond Mark: yes. Yucca: to the fact that you have these people who are dependent and they have needs? How do you, how do you then respond, right? While still meeting those needs? You get to, as a parent, you don't have to do it a certain way because grandma did it that way. Mark: Oh, Yucca: You get to, you get to, you know, and there's lots of things grandma did that was awesome and other things grandma did that, oh my goodness, let's, let's not even talk about them, but you get to look at that and say, how does this work for my life? And how does this work for theirs? And get to make those choices, Mark: it's a good time for reflection, the beginning of the year. We talked about that last week some. Just to be really clear, you know, this is my life, it's my artwork, and I'm gonna do what I can within the constraints of what I've got. You know, if I've got a 2x4 canvas, I can't paint a 6x8 painting. That's the nature of the thing. But you still have an awful lot of choices about what you put on that canvas. Um, so, so yeah that's, that's a place to start is feeling some agency. I think that one of the things about the post holiday letdown can often be feeling like you're sort of getting back into the harness and having less choices and, you know, less opportunity to just be happy and celebrate and stuff. And that isn't entirely true. It's just that you have to do it within the constraints of what your life demands of you on a daily basis. So, let's talk a little bit about that. Dark time that we're coming into. I mean, it's not so dark. The light is, well, it is dark, but the light Yucca: depends on where you, yeah, it depends on your environment. I mean, I can certainly notice that the days are getting longer, but there's, there Still really, really short right now. Mark: Yes. And where I am, it's, Yucca: we're going into the coldest time of the year. Even though it's not going to be the darkest, it's the coldest, most bitter, windiest, you know, it really is going to be true winter. Mark: hmm, hmm. Yeah. Here I'm very pleased to report from California that we're getting a lot of rain. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: But that means that it's overcast and gray and we get tule fog in the morning on the mornings when it gets down around freezing. And it's It's, it's rarely bitter because when it does freeze, it's usually because it's clear. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And so the heat is radiated away from the earth and not been reflected back by clouds. But the, the, the time still feels cold and you know, you, you kind of have to bundle up and, and the days are still very, very short. Yucca: Mm hmm. And the shadow's long. That's the other thing that I always think about this time of year. Even when the sun is at its highest point in the sky, The shadows are just still long. Mark: they are. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. So, and we're going to talk more about this time of year, especially in a few weeks we'll talk slog, right? Mark: Slug. Yucca: But you also have the stretches of time period between holidays in general, right? And some, some holidays get more attention than others. sOme of them kind of, and this depends on each person individually but some of them just sort of get, you just sort of glide over them more easily than Mark: Mm hmm. Mm Yucca: I mean, I guess that for most, most people there's a few really big ones that we can pretty consistent throughout the whole community. The winter solstice, hollows. Those are usually pretty big ones. On the other side of the year, what would you think? May? Mark: Yeah, Yucca: and maybe the equinox? But the other ones kinda Those are ones that sort of fall between the cracks sometimes. Mark: Well, the overculture, the mainstream culture, doesn't have corollary holidays at those times. And so we don't get, we don't get the help of there being a day to take off or a set of themes like the Easter bunny and chocolate eggs or, Yucca: Although May, we don't really get that either, but I think there's just such the still the powerful image of the maple and flowers Mark: right, Yucca: That's, that's still kind of hanging on there. Mark: Yeah, um, and another, another tradition that's really embraced in the pagan community is Morris dancing, the season for which starts on May Day where they dance up the sun and then it ends on the autumnal equinox when they dance down the sun. And in some cases, I mean, I've seen people that, I've seen reports of Morris teams that are now like dancing down the sun on the winter solstice, which I think is also very cool, but,  dancing around wearing bells in the snow takes a particular kind of character, I think, not one that I have. Yucca: Right. And again, depends on your climate, right? A lot of that happening in, you know, southern Britain, they don't, yeah, they might get some snow, but it doesn't stick around the way you might have snow in, say, Wisconsin. Right. Yeah. It's very different places. Mark: So we settle into our lives again and start doing the things. And I guess this is what brings us to This idea of being a pagan every day, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mm Mark: right? Even when you're not, you know, putting on your, your fancy rags and, you know, going out to a, a celebration on at the beginning of February or at the spring equinox or whatever it is, Yucca: hmm. Mark: you know, there's, there's a way of being aware of what's going on around us in the natural world and a way of looking for the beauty and the opportunities to celebrate and to be happy that. thAt characterizes a pagan life, I think, and it's always a work in progress, but I've certainly found that, especially since my pagan practice became atheopaganism, explicitly, um, I just, I have more happiness now, because, because I'm, I'm making it, I'm choosing it. And of course we have so much grim, dire, dystopian talk in our mainstream culture. I think it's really beneficial to teach yourself, you know, to get wowed by flowers and the shapes of clouds and, Yucca: hmm. Mark: you know, the, the color of the sunset and, You know, that, that new picture from from the James Webb Telescope and, you know, all those. Just cool, cool things. The conjunction of Jupiter and the Moon, you know, pretty fantastic. Yucca: Yeah, and that isn't something that is a switch you can flip. It's not where you can just say, I am going to be a more joyful, happy, grateful person. It's something that you practice and become by doing. And that's where the daily practice really comes in. Mark: Yeah, it's a muscle. You have to, you have to exercise it, and it will become stronger over time. Yucca: Right. Mark: And a daily practice for me is really important, and I don't have a super elaborate daily practice, but it's still something that I go back to every day. And it just reminds me, okay, I am, I'm on a pagan path, I'm revealing the natural world, I'm connected with all this, and this is the lens that I turn on the world. This is, this is how I understand things. And that helps me. Yucca: Yeah. And what that practice is can and will look different for every person and for different points throughout our lives. Mark: Yes. Yucca: I'm guessing that your daily practice is different than it was 10 years ago, than it was 20 years ago, probably even different than it was 5. There's probably some core elements, but there's things that change. Throughout whatever's happening in your life, what are the things you need? And, you know, maybe there are things that really do work. There are certain things that work and we come back to. And then things that become more important at different points.  Mark: And what's lovely about neopaganism is that you are not prescribed rituals, you can design rituals that fit with yourself and your current needs and your own creative aesthetic and what the, the freedom in that. And the, the precision with which a practice can address your personal needs is really amazing. Yucca: hmm. Mark: is. And you can try lots of different stuff until you find something that goes, Ooh, that's really good. I want to do that every day.  Yucca: And there is not shame at all in trying out research. Something that you didn't completely invent, right? If you find something that somebody says, Hey, this is a way to do it, you do this, this, and this, and you try that out, and you do that, and kind of dedicate yourself to being consistent with it for a several week process, or however long you decide is what works for you there's value in that. You don't, because one of the things in neopaganism is sometimes it can be a little Overwhelming for people. It kind of just seems like this free for, oh, whatever works for you, whatever works for you. Sometimes people are like, yeah, but I don't know what works for me. I need a starting point, something. Yeah. And that's not, that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's just where somebody is at that moment. And, and then they get to know themselves better as they go through this process. And that's something that we can come back to, right? Yeah. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: adding new things in, and you don't have to know from the get go exactly what's going to be the right fit for you. Mark: No. Yucca: You change over time. Mark: And, and. At least in the naturalistic pagan pathways that we talk about here, um, you can do it any way you want that works for you, that's fine, but you can also be inspired by other sources in other traditions, which doesn't mean stealing them, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: but it means being inspired by them because there are a lot of things that are so called ritual technologies. Yucca: Mm Mark: That are very powerful. And, I mean, lighting candles, right? I mean, people light candles all over the world for a lot of different reasons in sacred contexts. So you're not stealing anything from anyone by lighting a candle or burning incense or, you know, that kind of stuff. But it can still be, you know, very evocative and powerful for you. You've talked about, um, the Simmerpot at your house, Yucca. And that's, I mean, that's a ritual practice, right? It's something that you do in order to create scents in the home that reflect your seasonal aesthetic and, you know, and that's another reminder of, oh, oh, it's spring, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: you know, oh, the, the, the smell changed. Mama changed the smell. So, we're in a different time now. Yucca: And they're old enough now that sometimes they get to be involved in the choice. Mark: Oh, Yucca: they're real little, it just happens. But as they get a little bit older, it's, hey! What do you think? Which one today? What do you mean both? Okay, let's try both. That's almost always the answer. I don't know if that'll go, but sure, let's try it. So yeah. Mark: In yeah. Terry PR in the, the BBC production of the Terry Pratchett Novel Hog Father, which is the only holiday movie that I have to watch every year. Yucca: We read the Hogfather every year. Mark: Do you? Yeah, yeah. There's this wonderful line by one of the, the wizards at the the University of Uns, the unseen University of on Mor Pork, where he says, let's just take everything and mix it up and see what happens. And that's, that sounds very much like a five year old choosing what sense to put in a pot. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Don't wanna, you don't wanna miss out on anything, right? Yucca: Right. And so, you know, I try to be good first. Knowing that the everything in might be an option, you know, I limit it down to two or three options to begin with, but they still, it's still gonna be all of them. And if you ask multiple kids at the same time, they, out of principle, will choose the opposite of the other ones. Mark: Ah, okay. Individuation. It's a thing. Huh. Yucca: it was, I wish I had like a, you know, a save button in real life so I could go back and check what would happen if you did. Ask them independently, right? Like in games where you can be like, what if I chose the other dialogue? What would have happened? I wish we could do that in real life. So,  Mark: daily practices. They can be a lot of different things. I mean, a daily practice can be going for a walk in your neighborhood. Yucca: Mm Mark: You know, for a half an hour every day and just looking at what's happening in the gardens or in the shop windows, or, you know, if you're in a big, dense, urbanized city you know, just what's going on with traffic right now you know, what, what are the clouds doing are there, are there wildlife around, are there birds that are, that are around that you don't necessarily see at other times of the year that, That function of paying attention. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And particularly paying attention to look for reasons to be happy is a learned skill, like, like Yucca was saying, and it sure improves your life. Yucca: Right, Mark: You know, one of the things that, that I have a really hard time with the Abrahamic religions about is that they don't seem to put much focus on being happy. Yucca: right. At least not the mainstream ones. I think we could say that they're definitely bran you, you could make that argument for Sufism or Quakers or, you know, there's branches that do bring that in, um, but not as a, that's not really the theme on the, on the big scale. Mark: no well, anyway, Yucca: That's a, another conversation about the whys behind that and Mark: Yeah, and it's not our subject. Yucca: the, Mark: You, you can find another podcast to learn about, you know, what they're going for and what, what their goals are.  Yucca: Context for why it developed that way? Which is fascinating, but I personally don't know enough to actually really comment on that. I can say my guesses on, well, I listened to that, you know, that one podcast, and they said this and that, and that made sense to me, but that's not actually my field. So. Mark: Yep, very helpful when you know what you don't know. Which is, of course, one of the, the banes of the internet is that certain people are authorities on everything. You know, the Dunning Kruger, uh, syndrome, uh, Yucca: ways, right? The less you know, the more you think you do, and the more you know, the less you think you do. Mark: the less you think you do and the less certain you are about any of your conclusions. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: Which is why evidence is a good thing. But, just for us, I mean, Yucca: And this whole process that we've been sorting out over, over hundreds of years to try and get closer in and spiral closer and closer into truth. It's pretty great. Mark: it is. Yucca: I'm a big Mark: It is. And it spins out lots of things that are almost certainly true. There, there are things that are nailed down pretty well in terms of the way the universe works, and the way particular organisms operate, and, and that kind of thing. Now, at any given moment, there is an opportunity for some Contrary evidence to come along that shows that we don't completely understand them yet. But the fact that you're in New Mexico and I'm in California and we're talking now Yucca: Feels face to face. Mark: yes, and we can broadcast this for people all over the world to listen to is a reflection of the fact that we've gotten pretty good at predictable stuff in many ways. Yucca: hmm. Mark: Yeah, Yucca: And in other places, we've, we've got a long way to go, but. We've got a process to, a process to be able to approach it with. Mark: Yeah, to get there. Yucca: so, and when we talk about a daily practice, that's a process too. It may not necessarily be the scientific method, but you can actually bring a lot of that into your own life and that can be really helpful. Right, just some of those, the, Your observation and testing and all of that, but having the process is really the first step Mark: Yeah. And when you think about it, a lot of what people call a grimoire or a book of shadows, you know, those are great romantic names Yucca: for your lab book, for your field book, Mark: Exactly. That's, that's, that's exactly what it is. It's like, okay, I did this this time. It felt like this. This is what I would change. This is what I would keep. Onward we go. Yucca: right? And sometimes they even have very specific rules that you're supposed to follow, like writing in pen and, you know, all the things and dating it. Yeah, some, depending on what lab you're in, there's some. The rules can be pretty intense for how you do your notebook. Mark: Really? Yucca: Well, because they, well, again, depending on what the lab is, but you can later use that as evidence for patent disputes and all of that kind of stuff. Mark: I see. Yeah, that makes sense. You don't want that stuff written in pencil. Yucca: Yeah, so there's rules and now there's a lot of them have gone digital. But there's very specific rules about how you do it and even. So, one place that I worked, I had to have the supervisor initial when I crossed something out. They had to initial that it was like a second, a witness, basically, that you were crossing out in the notebook. So, Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Yeah, like with a contract. If you cross something out you have to initial it. Yucca: yeah. But, the, when you're doing your Book of Shadow or something like that, you can come up with your own fun rules that you can do for whatever practical reason, but also Just because it makes it feel kind of special and, and, you know. Mark: Yeah. Have a special pen. There's a member of the Atheopagan Society Council who is a fanatic about fountain pens. Yucca: Ooh. Mark: And she has all these amazing fountain pens and ink, including Ultraviolet, sensitive, invisible ink. Yucca: Ooh. Mark: Isn't that cool? Yucca: like Mark: You have to shine a UV flashlight on it in order to read it, but the pages look completely blank otherwise. I mean, and there's, you know, there's all these wonderful inks like oxblood ink and, you know, all this stuff, which isn't actually made, isn't actually made from oxblood, it's just that color. Yucca: Oh, okay. It's gonna say the DM in me immediately thinks of using that pen for a secret message that you have to give the players and they can't decipher it until you give them the right the right prop or something. Mark: Yeah, yeah like a wand that glows UV, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Something like that. That would be really cool. Yucca: You just come up with some fantasy sounding name for it instead of UV, though. Mark: Right. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Well, we used to have ultravision and infravision in Dungeons Dragons. That got turned into darkvision, which is a catch all. Covers You know, so instead of seeing a heat imprint, um, or, you know, seeing at far distance because the ultraviolet is more penetrating you just have this one magical thing that just lets you see stuff that's further away. Yucca: Yeah, you just explain it in different ways, but it makes the The rolling work, the stats work easier. Mark: It does. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not going to talk about Shadow Dark. I really am not. We were talking before the thing, I got a new role playing game that I participated in the Kickstarter for, and it's, it looks really wonderful, and it's very simple. Very simple, modern mechanics, but a real old school kind of feel. So, that's all I'm going to say about Shadow Dark. Yucca: All right, um, well maybe that's one of those activities to do in the long stretches between holidays. Mark: Yes. If it's going to be dark, you might as well be in a dungeon. Yucca: right, yep, well this was great. Any other thoughts for the, for the new year, for our different topics today, of kind of the letdown from the holidays between. Holidays and daily practice. Mark: I, I guess the one thing that I would reinforce is to experiment, you know, really ask, ask uncomfortable questions about the routines in your life that don't serve you, and experiment with different ways to make that feel better, um, and that's, that And a daily practice, to me, really helps. The daily practice should not feel like a burden. Remember, the practice is for you, you're not for the practice. It's, it's not like, you know, it's not like Yucca: There's not some god that you're trying to please. Mark: right, or some religious institution. So this is all about you identifying. What helps you to live what feels like an optimized life. Because you know what? When people are happy, they spread it around. They, when people are happy, they empower other people. They Yucca: Just feel good to be around. Mark: yes, they feel good to be around. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that's something we can all aspire to, I think. So yeah, this has been great, Yucca. Thank you so much for the conversation and Happy New Year! Yucca: Happy New Year, everyone!   

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com ----more----   Introduction and Welcome --- Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Jekka. Mark: And I'm Mark. Reflecting on the End of the Year --- Yucca: And today we are talking about the end of the year and the beginning of a new year. So once again, here we are at the end of a year, Mark: Yeah, so it's a good time for reflecting on what the, what this round of the cycle has been, and then looking forward into the next year we were saying before we started to record, we're still in that, that kind of held breath in the middle of, of the winter solstice season, at least in the, in the northern hemisphere, where Everything seems to kind of stop for a moment, even though there's this frenzy of activity in your personal life, most, many people are not working. There's just a kind of suspension of ordinariness, and there's this moment of what can be a really reflective still time, as well as a very festive time, Yucca: right? This episode should actually come out Christmas morning. So, early Christmas morning, Mark: always a tranquil and reflective time. Yucca: Yes, very relaxed, there's nothing going on.  Discussing the Timing of the New Year --- Yucca: Before we get into all of that, let's talk about the timing of the New Year. Okay. Because we're talking about the calendar switching New Year, which many people count as the New Year. For me, that's usually what I go with. That's the turning of the calendar. But for some folks, it's actually at Hallow, some people it's the Solstice, some people change at the Equinox, right? When's New Year's for you? Mark: I have two tracks for that, and they're offset by about ten days. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: For me, the beginning of the sacred cycle of the year is at the winter solstice. But then there's the calendar year, which, you know, as we say, when you're dating something, what number do you put at the end of the of, of the date that you're writing, that changes on January 1st, and so January 1st is also a hinge point, a moment when there's a transition, and that gives us the opportunity to do what we're doing today, which is look back, kind of review what that's all been like for the past cycle, and then imagine and dream forward into the new cycle. Yucca: Mm hmm. For me it's very fuzzy because since I don't have, typically I'm not working on the 31st or the 1st. The exact moment there isn't really a switch over, it's just this sort of fuzzy time period where it's like, oh yeah, it's the new year. I think, kinda, now I gotta get used to writing this other date, but it hasn't really happened yet. it Really takes about until February to get used to it being a different year. Mark: Mm. Reflections on the Past Year --- Yucca: So, and some years just don't feel like they happened, especially in the last few years because of how things were so different with COVID, where some years just, like, feel like they're missing. Mark: Yeah, 2020, I mean, when it happened, 2020 felt like the longest year ever. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And then 2021 was like a continuation of the longest year ever, it was just more of the same. anD when the various Restrictions were relaxed, it almost felt like, it almost felt like that hadn't happened at all.  Impact of COVID-19 on the Perception of Time --- Mark: Like, it was just this sort of separate time when we were all indoors and staying away from everyone but it was outside of history somehow. Yucca: It was almost like we went from 19 to 22. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: Like, those, those years, I mean, they're there, but they're not in some ways. It's very, very odd. And this year So much has happened. It's actually quite difficult to keep track of what happened this year and what wasn't this year. Just thinking about what happened within this calendar year. It's, it's been a very full year. Mark: it really has. I mean, everything from floods and earthquakes and volcano eruptions to, you know, political happenings here and there and wars and humanitarian crises, you know, and of course that's what the news feeds us, which is all the bad news, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: BuT I think it's fair to say that this is a very uncertain time for a lot of people. Yucca: Mm hmm.   Changes in the Work Environment --- Mark: I think about You know, in the, in the business world, in the economy, there's this huge movement of companies that are sort of hanging on by their fingernails to their old model and wanting to go back to 2019, and insisting that their workers come back to the office, and the workers are saying, actually, no, thank you, Yucca: Mm Mark: uh, this works much better for me in my life, and I'm not going. And it's, it's a very interesting standoff, Yucca: hmm. Mark: And it's one that I think the, the labor force, the working force is winning. I, I don't think that this idea about you have to be sitting in a chair in a cubicle in order to do your job is, is gonna succeed over the long term. Yucca: Right. At least within certain sectors. There are certain ones that are in person.  Mark: Oh, service industries, for sure. Yeah, I mean, those people have to be there and doing their thing. I'm thinking specifically of people that were in an office. Yeah, people who were in an office and then were able to leave, which of course is a tremendous privilege.  Challenges of Remote Work --- Mark: I now work fully remotely, and although there are things that are hard about it, like, for example, the fact that you could not register an organization to receive federal funding through, like, a cost sharing agreement or something like that, or a grant with the federal government if you don't have a physical address. Because the Patriot Act regulations consider that dodgy. So I, in order to prove that we really exist, I'm going to have to change the address on our bank account of my employer to my personal address, print out the, the, the bank statement that shows that address, and then change it back to the P. O. box that we have. Because we're a fully remote company and we don't have an office. So, it's just silly. Yucca: Wow. And you're not gonna, you don't have any zoning problems that are gonna come from that? Mark: No, Yucca: Okay. Yeah. Because there's certain areas where you gotta watch out for that, that you're not allowed to have particular businesses Mark: a Yucca: areas and, you know. Mark: I'm sure that that's true, but considering that it's going to last for less than 24 hours I don't really think it's a problem. The primary issue is, I think, they want to know where they can go to find a human being who is working for this company. And has some responsibility if they need to come after us for some reason. And I, there wouldn't be any reason they would need to come after us. I mean, we're a nonprofit organization. We can't even get in trouble with them for taxes. Yucca: Mm hmm. Yeah. But, but they can't go to a P. O. box. So. Mark: right. That's right. So we have to, I'm going to paint a target on my door and, and invite them to come find me. Reflection on Personal and Global Events --- Yucca: So, this year, though, there's things that have been happening on a big scale, Mark: yes, Yucca: and our personal lives, of course, are interwoven with that, right? But at the same time, a lot of what happens in our own lives really doesn't have a lot to do with the outside workings of, you know, what's happening with floods and hurricanes and wars and, you know, life just goes on. for listening. for regular folk.  Looking Back and Looking Forward --- Yucca: And so each of us, you know, us, you and me, Mark, and everyone listening, we've all had our own years, our own lives that have happened, and I, we were talking a lot about this last week, about the, about solstice being this wonderful time for reflection. I think that's a, we can continue that in, and, and think about the whole year. And what has that meant to us, and what are some of the lessons that we have learned? Because we have learned lessons, right? And what are those? Mm Mark: of those lessons are things that have crossed our minds consciously, right? Like, okay, this is a situation that doesn't work for me, this is a situation that does work for me this is an activity that really feeds me and helps me to feel energized and happy. thIs is something that is a total waste of time that I've been doing for my entire life, and I'm gonna stop, you know, those kinds of things. But then there's also the sort of the subconscious part, the, uh, the reflection on what can be called shadow work, you know, where you look at All right, there were certainly challenges this year. I mean, I don't think I know of anyone who didn't have a challenge this year. Did I ride those out, and what did I learn from them, and what did they tell me about myself, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: right? What do they tell me about who I am? Because I think that one of the things that people are really struggling with right now is that we've been through a bunch of hardship with the pandemic and the Trump years and just a lot of really, Yucca: with the economy, Mark: yes, all that stuff. And you know, people, people still feel kind of beat up in many ways and very uncertain. And so, kind of digging down to find out, well, how do I live with that uncertainty? Am I doing okay? Am I, am I kind of walking, wounded, depressed right now? Not, not in a, in a So much a debilitating sense is just kind of a muffling sense, where you don't feel things as much as you used to, and the kinds of things that you enjoy doing, maybe you don't enjoy doing them quite so much. The Importance of Self-Reflection --- Mark: I think it's a good time for sort of a diagnostic take on, on how our mental health is going, and what in life is really serving us, and what in life is not. Yucca: Right?  Setting Goals and Intentions for the New Year --- Yucca: Yeah, and thinking about that, the choice and intention that we have in that, right? What do we want? What is serving us? And what, what do we want? How do we want to be in this life? Is that something that I choose or you choose to continue to do? Because it is When it comes to how we're responding, it ultimately is a choice, right? It's not a choice whether, to us as individuals, whether who's in office or what wars are happening, right? But, but how am I, how am I going to respond is something that I have some influence over, and this is just a good time to think about that. Yeah. Mark: Yes. How am I going to show up to reality? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And a perfectly legitimate approach to that, by the way, is a nice dash of escapism. You know, play your Dungeons and Dragons and watch your Netflix. I mean, checking out for a little while is something that can actually help support you at times when things seem a little overwhelming or unbearable. I mean, you probably want to curate those experiences so you're not watching super depressing movies. Maybe that's not the road you want to follow. Yucca: Unless that does it for you, right? My, my partner will look at things that are like, will get on Reddit and, you know, see the, the terrible relationships and the like, am I the asshole threads and go, wow, my life's not that bad. Mark: life is good, yeah! Yucca: that to be very, like, helpful. Now, if I look at that stuff, I just get it. so worked up and it makes it worse for me, but for some people that really does help. So it, so, you know, know yourself on that. Does that help? Does that not help? You know, what are you consuming? And is that, is that leading you in the way that you want to be developing yourself right now or not? Mark: absolutely. Yeah, that's well said. So, I think there's an opportunity, I mean, one thing that I do on New Year's Eve is I have a dark mirror. Which is a piece of, a circular piece of heavily tinted glass, which I then painted black on the back and put in a frame. Actually first I put a piece of cardboard in the frame and then the glass over the top of that so that there would be some, some backing so that it would be less likely to break the mirror, um, but then I also drew various sigils and arcane symbols and stuff on the cardboard before I put the glass on top of it, so they're, they're down in there somewhere. Yucca: So there's these layers. Okay. Mark: You can't see them at all through the glass, but they're there. And what I like to do is to sort of, you know, light a candle and contemplate my face in this dark mirror on New Year's Eve. I've only done it for a couple of years, but it's a cool thing. You can see this shadowy outline of your face. And if you just keep gazing into it, it all sort of dissolves into geometric shapes. And you just Then you find your mind wandering to particular places and things and ideas and thoughts and, and it's a It's an opportunity to check in with the subconscious, to sort of dip in a little bit and find out, well, what's going on down there? So, that's something you could do, I mean, by candlelight, you could do that with a regular mirror.  Yucca: And then you get that lovely flickering with that. Mark: right, yeah. So, something to think about, or some other form of, you know, so called divination, like reading Tarot, or whatever those are. I like the ones, for this kind of work, I like the ones where you work essentially with random imagery and then see what your mind makes out of it, right? Like serumancy, dripping candle wax into water, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: and it creates shapes as it, you know, cools. And you can see different animals and symbols and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Yeah? Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Mm hmm. I like the imagery of that. Mm hmm. Mm Mark: So that's looking back. That's, that's the work of reflection, which I think every person who really wants to be happy and wise has to do some of that. You know, you got to look at yourself. You got to look at the world. And there's, uh, you know, there's, there's a level of simply coming to terms and saying, okay, that's real. Yucca: Right. Mark: another level of going. And I'm grateful for all this other stuff that's going on, right? So, you know, the world is a very complex mixture. It's not like thumbs up, thumbs down, and the same is true of ourselves as individuals. And just coming to grips with all of that and having a level of acceptance and gratitude is very helpful, I think. thAt goes back to that thing about the three big lessons that I talk about. The big Okay, the big thank you and the big wow, Yucca: Right, so there's the reflection component there's the looking back and there's also the looking forward. Now I think the looking back, you've got to be able to do that, I think that really does need to come first, or part of it, to be able to look forward to What is it that you want, right? Mark: yeah, Yucca: And as we talked about last time, we're kind of in this dreaming period. We may not really be planting those seeds yet, but we are deciding what are those seeds that we might want to plant. What do we need to do to prepare? Mark: right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that goes into the ritual things that people do at the New Year around resolutions and all that kind of stuff, right? Because I mean, A New Year's resolution is rooted in an imagined self that has changed. It's like, okay, I picture myself and I do not drink six cups of coffee a day. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And that's great. You know, it's great to have a vision for where you want to go as a person, whether it's something minor or something major. Personally, I don't do New Year's resolutions, and the reason that I don't do them is that the popular framing of them is kind of like the little drummer boy game, where it's like once you lose, it's over. Yucca: hmm. Mark: And if you're really trying to do something hard to change yourself, you have to give yourself some slack. If you're trying to get sober, and you do that for a week and then you have a drink, you don't quit trying to get sober, you just start over, right? Yucca: Right, you get back up, dust yourself off, and keep going. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: So I think that one of the things that sometimes we are very good at or don't have a lot of practice in is that, that getting back up part and planning in how, what could go wrong and how am I going to respond when it does go wrong. Mark: Good point. Yucca: And I think that If you are incorporating that into your planning, whatever it is, whether you're planning your financial future, or the process of quitting smoking or drinking, or all of those, any of those things, you are, you're being more realistic, first of all, about the world that we live in, because mistakes do happen. You're, you're building in resilience to being able to better achieve whatever that is. So I think that's a really important step that we forget to do. Mark: Yes. And the self compassion step in there as well. Not excuse making, but recognizing that we're all fallible and that any kind of real personal transformation that's the kind of thing that a New Year's resolution might be made about is not easy, right? It's just not easy. And, um, it is remarkable the degree to which our behaviors as humans are. The Power of Habit and Routine --- Mark: Habitual. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: You know, we have routines for our day, we have routines for making our coffee, we have routines for, you know, what we do about lunch, we have just lots and lots of routines, routines, you know, when we're getting ready to go to bed.  Yucca: And there's a very, very practical reason for all of that. So that all of that isn't taking up our space for the other stuff that we need to be doing. For all the other stuff we need to be thinking about. We're not, every time we make our coffee, we aren't going through those steps. We're not giving it the mental energy. Mark: Right. Okay, Yucca: something else. Mark: water. Yucca: Yes, oh wait, when I move my hand, yeah, that's all, that's all just ingrained so that we can do other things and pay attention to the things that might matter more. Now there's today probably not a tiger about to getcha, but we needed the space to be able to be aware for a possible tiger to get to. Now we're thinking about the interaction that we're going to have with our colleague or whatever we're going to tell to our uncle when they say that super offensive thing. But, yeah. Mark: Yeah. And so, because, because so much of what we do is this sort of pre programmed pathway of habit. It can be very hard to reprogram that stuff, because once you start the process, the rest of the steps are automatic. You do this, and then all of those other things just naturally follow. And to be able to be self aware enough in any given moment to say, wait, I'm not going to go any further with this. I'm going to do something else. That is an effort, and it, it requires some real focus, and if you're not able to do it all the time, it requires some real compassion with yourself, so that instead of feeling like a failure or, you know, a moral degenerate, you just feel like someone who is trying to do something hard and is learning how to do it. Yucca: Yeah. And another component is that, that doing those hard things is a skill, um, and sometimes we try to jump to, to a bigger task than we might be ready for, than a bigger change, right? Sometimes we might need to make some smaller changes, get good at practicing. That change before we go to something even bigger. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: And that's just going to depend on whatever it is that you're working on. Mm. Mm Mark: So, having said all that, I'm not a big fan of New Year's resolutions because, as I said, the idea is that it's like a piece of glass. It's like, if it's broken, then it's no longer of any use. And, So, to me, that's just, it's a very, well, frankly, a very Protestant way of looking at things. It's got a lot of judgment folded into it, and it just doesn't really work for me. Setting Themes Instead of Resolutions --- Mark: So what I like to do is to set themes for the new year that are kind of areas that I'm going to pay attention to and work to foster in my life. Yucca: Mm Mark: So, like, last year, My theme this year, actually, my themes were prosperity and security, um, because I hadn't had a job for a year and eight months at that point. I needed to get a job.  Yucca: Hmm. Mark: you know, and I did get a job and now I'm working in it and it's lively. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It's if, you know, Folks that are listening to the podcast that have been on the Facebook or Discord communities know that I am about to be appointed as the Interim Executive Director of the environmental organization that I work for, and there are crises that we are dealing with that are very challenging, and they're going to land in my lap when the previous Executive Director leaves, which was already planned before the crises happened. So, it's not his fault, but still it's, it's a very lively time, and I'm not getting time off at the holidays that I expected to get because I've got to work through the end of the year when he goes. So, but I got a job, and it's a good job working for The protection of wilderness and, and wild places and biodiversity hotspots. So that's, that's pretty cool work to be doing. Yucca: Yeah, so you like to set themes instead of resolutions. And is that something that you do, um, at the same time as your dark mirror ritual? Or is that a separate thing for you? Mark: That's kind of a separate thing. And it doesn't necessarily have to happen like on New Year's Day. Usually I, I do it in the first week of the year, something like that. Just as things are starting to get rolling again, the, the normality is reasserting itself after the strange, still frenzied window of the holidays. Yucca: Mm Mark: Um, so yeah, that's, that's generally when I do it, and I'm still not clear about what my themes will be for the coming year. Um, but I've started thinking about it. Right? Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: Uh, I, I do have the, the advantage of not having, I mean, I'm going to my Ritual Circles Yule Gathering today, which is sort of my big social Christmas y, Yule y thing. Um, but, I have no plans on Christmas Day itself, so You know, at least that I get off, uh, and I don't know, I'm, I'm gonna try to pry out some more time next week if I possibly can, but it really just depends on what's going on. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: How about you? What are your New Year's practices? Yucca: It's not particularly formal. I, I do like the resolutions it, as long as it has the what we were built, we were talking about built into it where it isn't like a, oh well, I messed it up and can't try again. But I'm, I'm more of a fan of making choices and resolutions. When I, when it comes up, right? So I think that this is a really important time of year to be doing reflection, but I try and do that throughout the year. aNd I'm a little hesitant about the doing anything where I say, oh, I'll wait till Start it on Monday, or start at the beginning of the month, or start at the beginning of the year, because that stuff actually means you don't really want to do it, right? You're not going to do it. If you're really going to do it, start now. Not tonight, not tomorrow, not Monday, now. So I'm kind of in that camp of just like, if I'm going to do it, yeah, I'm a kind of cold turkey person, right? Or pull the band aid off, where just, I'm just going to do it. But know that sometimes I will slip up. And then I have to be, and I can't do the whole, oh, well, I guess, you know, I slipped up, I'll, you know, I'll just do it again and start better tomorrow. Nope, you just gotta be on it. And that's just my particular personality that I've Mark: Huh. Yucca: Some people are very different with that. But I do like the idea of there being a time where people are reflecting on what they want and actively deciding to make a change. Whether that ends up working out or not is a different thing, but I think that it's really important to have that. So I value that that's something that our culture does. I think we could work on the skills around that. Mark: Yeah, that, that's, that's a good point, too. The, yes, there are skills required to have that kind of discipline and, and self compassion. You know, the other thing I wanted to put a word in for is We tend to think of New Year's resolutions as always being something that's like, you know, taking your medicine. It's some, you know, I'm going to abstain from something or I'm going to Yucca: Well, the classic one is I'm going to go to the gym every Mark: Yes. Yucca: the going to the gym is the classic one, right? Yeah. Or losing that 20 pounds. Mark: Yes. Whereas It's also possible to have resolutions that are about good things that you want to add into your life, right? You know, you, you, you could certainly say to yourself, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna carve out Sunday afternoons and I'm gonna go for a hike every Sunday afternoon. That's what I'm gonna do. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that's good for you. I mean, that, that, that would be a pleasurable experience that you'd be doing for yourself. You know, something that's additive to your life, you know, it could be I'm going to start having date nights and I'm going to have more sex in my life. It could be I'm going to make sure that I get to that restaurant that I love so much once a month. You know, any of those things. Yucca: And let's, let's take one of those as an example. Let's say it's the going for a hike on Sundays, right?  Planning for Success in the New Year --- Yucca: If that is the thing that you're thinking about, well, you can go, okay, well, What can I do right now to help set that up to be more likely for me to be able to do that? And for me, that would be, I'm going to put it in my calendar right now. It's pretty easy to do that. I have a digital cal I like, I have a physical and a digital, but my digital is my main one, then I copy it onto my physical and go, okay, I'm going to see that on my calendar every day. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: And then I'm going to think about, okay, well, what am I going to do If the weather is XYZ, right? Okay, I'm going to set it up right now that I have the equipment that I need to be able to do it. So if it's raining, I'm not going to go, oh, I guess I can't go out because I don't have a raincoat. I just got myself a raincoat, so I can go out, right? I've looked up places that I can go. So when you're in this, like, I'm, when you're in the moment of deciding that that's what you're going to do, you've got energy around it. Think about how you can set yourself up to succeed in that. Mark: Yeah, I mean, in the hiking example, I think one thing that you can do immediately is go get yourself a pair of hiking boots. Yucca: Yeah, right? Get yourself the hiking boots and figure out some of the places. Maybe find a group, if that's what you want to do. Maybe you don't want to go with a group, but is there a group that That is doing it, that you could, that you could join with and then have the positive peer pressure component to it, right? And we always say peer pressure is like this bad thing, but sometimes it's really helpful, right? Like, we've said it before, if this podcast was just one of us trying to do it, Wouldn't have worked, right? Because each week I know, oh, Mark's gonna be there waiting for me. Okay, I'm gonna do it. Whereas if it was just me by myself, we would have gotten a few episodes in 2020 and that'd be it. Right? Mark: Well, yeah, there is something about being accountable to other people. And creating whatever it is that you're trying to do to build some accountability expectation on the part of other people. I know meetup. com tends to have lots of hiking groups and, you know, people that like to do various outdoor things, so that's a resource that you can look for. Yucca: Right. And of course, whatever your goal is, I just grabbed that one because that was an easy one to talk about, right? But, but the point of it is to think about what's going to help me succeed, what might get in the way, how can I respond when that does happen? Because it, there will be a day that the weather is off. There will be a day that you're feeling sick. There will be, those things will happen. So, what are you going to do when they do? Mm Mark: right. And the good news is that as you start doing the thing and enjoying it, since we're talking about things that are additive, that are, that are, you know, that are pleasurable in your life, Um, it will feel weirder and weirder not to do it, because we are creatures of routine, right? And you can get that routine making pattern on your side if you just build up some consistency. Yucca: hmm. Mark: So starting at least with a social group, and I find that a social group is good for hiking. I mean, I like solo hiking a lot, but One thing that a social group is good for is that interactions with other people will tend to distract you from whether your body is hurting or not. Yucca: Yes. Mark: know, if you're having a conversation on the trail and your legs are starting to hurt, you'll, you'll tend to tamp that down to continue the conversation on the trail. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: So, you know, while you're building strength. Yucca: Right. All right, well, Mark, are there other things that you can think about for this turning of the year? Mark: You know, not really. My birthday is two days after New Year's Day, and so the two of them often, you know, they kind of get mushed together. And So the reflection piece tends to be, for me, it tends to be not just the last year, but also, like, life, Yucca: Right. Mark: What have I done? What am I doing? Where am I going? You know, all those kinds of big questions. So I do like to consider those as well, but I think that's really more of a birthday thing. You could do that at any time of the year, Yucca: Right, Mark: but a birthday is a good opportunity for it. Yucca: yeah, I think all of what we've been talking about is great for birthday whatever time of year your birthday is, Mark: Yeah. Even the resolutions, it's like a gift to yourself, right? You're gonna improve something. Yucca: new year, it's not the calendar's new year, but you're starting again, Mark: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And yep, and mine actually falls on a Wednesday, like the day I was born this year. Yucca: Oh, I was also born on a Wednesday. Mark: Where are you? We're full of woe! Yucca: Yes. I've always liked Wednesday because when I was little, I learned to spell it as Wed nest day. And so every time I write the word, I say Wed nest day in my mind, even decades later. So I've just always enjoyed that day. Mark: That's great. Yucca: So, just the little things to make. Make things fun and enjoyable, Mark: Sure. Yeah. Closing Thoughts and Farewell --- Yucca: Well, we will see everyone again. I think our next episode will be the first. So we won't see all of you until the 2024. Yes. Wow. That sounds like a sci fi date. That doesn't sound real. Mark: God, it's, it's, well, you know, there's so, Yucca: Shouldn't it be like some Book series, or like, sci fi action should be named 20, 24. Mark: You know, there are times when my partner Nemea and I, we look at some of the technological things that are happening and we just say we're living in the future. You know, we remember what it was like in the 70s when a Texas Instruments TI 30 hand calculator was both expensive and rare and, and incredibly powerful, right? And now, you know, now we're doing custom gene based healthcare for people. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: It's like, it's amazing. Yucca: it's a cool time to be alive, right? That's something we should say, it's been, for all the challenges that are world is facing and that we're facing and the crises and all of that. It's also really, there's a lot of cool stuff Mark: there is, Yucca: and just the things we get to learn and the tools we have to study with and, and the opportunities that just didn't exist before. Mark: Right? Right. Yucca: Yeah, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot to be really grateful for. Mark: Absolutely, and there's, of course, a lot of improvement that needs to happen on many fronts, and that's our responsibility as people who want a better world, um, but I mean, I've known some activists who have fallen into this terrible hole of everything is awful and they're just cynical about everything because it doesn't meet their perfect dream. I don't remember who said it, but something like inside cynic is a frustrated optimist. aNd, uh, no, a frustrated idealist. That was it, a frustrated idealist. And I really work hard not to have that happen, because I think it's such a narrow view of the world. The world is amazing. Life is an amazing ride. And yes, there are terrible things in it, and that's just how it is. The big okay. Yucca: Yep, Mark: Yeah. Well, Yucca, thank you so much. I wish you a Merry Christmas, um, Yucca: and a happy new Mark: a Happy New Year. Yes whatever your celebrations are over the course of the next week I hope that you enjoy them and spend them loved and warm and cozy. Yucca: and we'll see y'all next year.   

Revolutionary Witchcraft- Sarah Lyons  Rest is Resistance by Tricia Hersey Hope in the Dark by Rebecca Solnit Emergence Magazine podcast  https://www.ejnet.org/ej/principles.pdf   S4E32 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca. Mark: and I'm Mark. Yucca: And today we are honored to have another guest. So Lauren, who is a new member of the Atheopagan Society Council. So, welcome, Lauren. Lauren: Thanks. I'm so glad to be here. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: We're really excited to have you, so thank you for taking the time to come on the show. Lauren: Yeah, no, my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. I'm so tickled to be here. Yucca: Yeah. So, Lauren, will you tell us a little bit about you and your, I guess, so we were saying atheopagan origin story? Lauren: Sure. And you know, I think like a lot of these stories, it's a little long, so forgive me if I get kind of long-winded here, but I hope that, you Yucca: so much fun. We love to listen to it, so. Lauren: I'm glad. Yeah, I'm sort of hopeful that some of what I talk about could just help someone else. So I figured I would lay it all out there. So yeah, I'm I'm from New York, I'm from New York City, and I grew up in a, I would say, fairly Catholic family. We went to Mass regularly outside of just like Christmas and Easter. I was an altar girl I had my first communion, sort of like the whole, all the steps that you do as a child in the Catholic Church. And I really loved it, like I loved being an altar girl, I loved, being part of rituals and ceremonies and made me feel important and special, and I really loved the community that we had in the church as a kid. But as I got a little bit older when I was sort of like in early adolescence, my mom came out as a lesbian. And, as you can imagine, this was like the early 2000s being part of the LGBTQ plus community, and the Catholic Church didn't really mix, so, we left that community. And at the same time, again, early 2000s, there was a lot of just like witch stuff happening in pop culture, like the Harry Potter books were like exploding, all this stuff was going on. And I expressed an interest in that. And an adult in my life was like, Oh, hey, you like it. Thank you. Witchy things, like let me bring you to this New Age bookstore. So, I went to this New Age bookstore and I bought a couple of books on Wicca, and it was just like a complete revelation for me. I was so enamored with, with Wicca, with Learning about this whole religious practice that was, it, it felt magical and empowering and, you know, feminist and accepting and all of these things, and I was just still a really deeply faithful person like, you Completely believed in God, and I remember reading a passage in one of the books that I got that was like, you can imagine God as a diamond, and in Christianity, you're just looking at one facet of the diamond, and this was a way to like, look at all of these other facets, and I just loved that. So throughout my, my whole teenage era, I had this like fairly serious solitary practice. I never tried to build any sort of real life community. I think the stigma was just like too high for me to ever even try, but I would like read stuff online and, and I would do ritual by myself. When I was in my, I guess, around 20 years old late teens to, to 20, sort of two things happened that kind of pushed me to a different place. So, unfortunately I had this tragic experience where my best friend from childhood passed away. And that triggered like a classic crisis of faith where it's, you know, why does God let bad things happen to good people? And I couldn't find a satisfying answer to that question. And I also met the person who would become my, my life partner and now spouse. who just moved at that time from the UK to the U. S. and I think sort of found himself in this place of like, wow, like, everything is really Christian here in this way that I feel really uncomfortable with. And he was sort of one of the first, like, loud atheists that I'd ever encountered. So for the rest of sort of my early 20s, I just I was in this process of deconstructing, and I remember being about 25, and I, I totered around like those same books I bought from that New Age shop, like to all these different apartments, all these different moments in my life, and I recycled them because I couldn't reconcile the idea of hanging on to that stuff with just not believing in God anymore. And I cried, like it was a really painful moment, but it just sort of felt like this is what I have to do to be. to not have that cognitive dissonance in my mind. So that's where like this other big thread of, I guess, my origin story picks up, which is like the environmental activism piece. So I've, I've always been involved in social justice movements of various kinds, like basically from childhood. I'd always done environmental and sustainability work through like high school and college. And then I was living in New York City when Hurricane Sandy hit in 2012. And for people who aren't particular, aren't familiar with that particular climate disaster, it was really devastating. So after that, I, I was trying to figure out how to make climate action my job and how to like make a, a career fighting for a livable planet. So, eventually, it took me a couple years, but that led me to law school, and I decided to try to become an environmental lawyer. I started law school in the fall of 2016 in Washington, D. C. And people listening from the U. S. probably remember that we had a liberal election that year, and Donald Trump was elected basically right as I started law school. So... I spent those three years that I was in law school just like completely burning the candle at both ends, 110 percent in on like all of the things. So during the day I was like interning at environmental law organizations and taking classes. And evenings and weekends I was like, if you can think of a way to take like civic action, like I did it. I attended protests. I organized at least one. I called Congress. I worked in Congress. Like, I just did all of those things. It was a really crazy three years, but I think a lot of us who were in law school, in particular at that time in DC, felt like we had this huge responsibility being physically there to, like, do everything we could both on the democracy front and on the climate front. So, I was, I was glad to be there and glad to do it. So after I graduated, I spent a year working for a judge in New York. We were trying to come back to New York and we were able to do that. It's this thing called clerking, where you spend a year working for a judge. And when you're clerking, you're not allowed to do any political activity at all. And You could do a whole separate podcast about why that's like unfair and a little bit silly, but it is what it is. So it was this strange sort of pause in my life where I couldn't do all of the things that I had been doing, you know, basically for the previous decade. And then in the spring of my clerkship year, COVID happened. So it was like a doubling down where it felt like You know, I think maybe in some ways, particularly where we were, right in the heart of it for many months, everything was falling apart and I felt like I could do nothing about it. And that was really hard. I was, I think, tired and scared and I remember saying to my partner, like, I, I need to pull on something that is not myself. And I don't know if that makes sense outside of my own head, but... It was this moment where I think I was really longing to like turn to prayer like I would have when I was a person of faith and I just like couldn't do that. So it just tugged me back towards paganism and thinking like, is there, is there any way that I could work this back into my life in a way that feels authentic? The other thing that was sort of happening that year too was we had just gotten married and we were thinking seriously about starting a family. And that raises all sorts of questions too about like, well, how, how are we going to raise this kid? And we're two people who don't believe in God, but we want community around our kid and thinking hard about those questions and the sort of life that we wanted to build in that way. So I just started poking around on the internet and I think, you know, many Googles in, I found the sass Reddit page and On some, some post, I saw a comment that mentioned atheopaganism, and I like, found the community from there. So, I guess I've only really been in the community, I think it's been like, less than a year, but I've just been, you know, it was such a wonderful moment when I found it, because it's like, oh my gosh, not only are there other people who like, believe how I believe, but... They've like built a community and a whole thing and just the more I read the more excited I got. So, I've just been really thrilled to be here even though, you know, it took me a long time to find it. I'm really glad that I'm here now. Yeah, so that's my origin story. Yucca: That's wonderful,  Mark: that is, that's a great story, wow. Myself, I got bitten by a radioactive spider, but that's, we'll, we'll talk about that another time. Yucca: For those who aren't familiar, Stas. Lauren: Oh yeah, I think it's something called, it's something like skeptical atheist and science seeking witches. So it's folks who are into sort of, Rituals and practices to help them develop themselves, but they don't believe in what I would call like Harry Potter style magic. It's sort of the magic of working with your own psyche. So that, that really resonated with me. And I think there's a fair amount of crossover, like folks who are in that community and folks who are in this one. Yeah. Mark: yeah, yeah. Yucca: And what were some of the things that when you found the atheopagan community that really stood out to you, that you were like, Oh, this is, this part is what I'm connecting with. Lauren: Yeah. You know, I think just sort of the basic framework that we are all folks who are here because we think the earth is sacred. Yeah. And we want to find ways to celebrate that and celebrate life and community and, and just a rejection of things that aren't verifiably real in a way that didn't feel, I guess, demeaning or, or like there was any ridicule. And that mattered a lot to me because like some of the most important people in my life are people of like deep faith and I've, I've never been super comfortable with the sort of like, let's all just like make fun of. Christian sort of tact. And I didn't feel like I saw that here a lot. And I was also really struck, like, when I joined the Facebook group, there are those three screening questions that basically, I think, are designed to, like, weed out folks who, you know, are not ready to say, Black Lives Matter, or to, you know, be willing to live their values. So the fact that those were right up front, I think, immediately put me at ease. Yeah, it's, you know, probably not obvious to listeners, but I'm a Black and Latina person, and I think, you know, the pagan world, as I've encountered it, it's like a fairly white space, so there's a little bit of guarding that I have coming into any sort of Pagan community. So there were signals right off the bat that like, this was a place where it was going to feel comfortable. And I think once I kind of got past the screening questions, all of that, that held true. Mark: I'm, I'm really delighted to hear you say that, because it's a really important priority for us. You know, we're, we just had our quarterly meeting of the Atheopagan Society Council, so you had your first meeting there, and we're working on our strategic plan, and our number one goal of the three goals we've identified for our upcoming couple of years is a focus on belonging, equity. Diversity, inclusion, justice. The, the activism element of atheopaganism is something that that's really important to me, the idea that we're not just doing this to be the best people we can, but also to make the best world we can. You know, to redress wrongs and to live in sustainable harmony as best we can with, with the ecosystem the biosphere. Lauren: yeah. Mark: I'm really excited, you know, to hear you articulate, you know, all that political passion, because I have a ton of it myself, and it's, it's just, it's just so important at this time. Yucca: Hm. Lauren: Yeah, I think so too. And I think something that has been so wonderful for me coming into this community I think I didn't know it, but I was really looking for some way to both soothe my own eco anxiety and, and climate anxiety, and, and sort of elevate the work that I do, like during the day and sort of the organizing I still do in the evenings, as something sacred and something that, you know, wasn't just an intellectual exercise. Mark: Yeah. Lauren: I was always... During like the Trump D. C. era of my life, when I would go to actions that were led by, you know, like progressive Christian groups or, or sometimes indigenous folks, and they would bring that element of a spiritual connection, I think there was Like a longing on my part that I felt those things too, but I had no, I felt like I couldn't lay claim to those feelings in any way, and being part of the atheopagan community I think is a way to sort of, like, say loud and proud, the earth is sacred, and we all believe that, and we're here for that, and Thank you. Thank you. And you can do that without appropriating anyone's culture or sort of claiming things that aren't yours to claim, but by, I think, acknowledging what's, what belongs to all of us as human beings it's a framework to access that, and I really appreciate that about this community. Yucca: Hm. Mark: Ah, yeah, it's wonderful to hear you say that. I just kind of like to sit with it for a while, it's the because we're living in quite a time, you know? It's gotten very late on, on a number of fronts, and and it's been far too long on other fronts, and it's just, A lot of things are coming to a boil now at the same time, and so being active participants in that is just so essential. I've been really encouraged to see how much interest there is in, in the community, in, you know, standing up for those principles, standing up for for, for inclusion and for environmentalism and for feminism and for the LGBTQ community and the BIPOC community and, you know, really saying, you know, drawing a line in the sand and saying, this is where we stand. Lauren: yeah, it's really great and really special. And I think one thing that I would love to bring to the community as in part of my role, I guess, on the council is just helping people. Find their voice if they're having trouble doing that, or otherwise facilitate or provide opportunities to act on our principles. I don't know, I don't know if I said this at any point, but, you know, in my day job now I am an environmental attorney. I bring, thank you, it's, it's pretty awesome, I'm not gonna lie. I do a lot of legal work to try to protect communities facing environmental racism or to try to protect ecosystems and I think that As an attorney, part of my job is to make sure that people who aren't attorneys know that the attorneys can't do everything, right? And not that I'm accusing anyone in the community of having those sentiments, but sometimes I, I worry a little bit, but it's like, ah, someone will just sue and it'll be fine. Like, no, it won't. And there are a million ways that everybody has to stand up for, for things they care about and places they care about. And those places aren't just like the Grand Canyon or Niagara Falls or whatever. They're like that polluted block down your street or, you know, the water coming out of your tap. I mean, there is, there is something to protect and fight for wherever you live. You know, I don't exactly know yet how I can be that sort of resource in the community, but that's, that's my intention, I guess, just starting out now. Yucca: And you've also been active in the affinity groups, right? Lauren: Yeah, so, I noticed that we had these things called affinity groups when I first joined, and that there wasn't a BIPOC group, so I, I guess I started that. You know, I think that in predominantly white spaces, often, At least, you know, speaking purely for myself, there's this sort of impulse to be like, Alright, where are the people of color? How do I find them? You know, because it's, it's sort of a, it's another layer of like, signal that like, this is an okay place to be if there are already other people there who look like you. So, I didn't really know how to do that without an affinity group, so I just made one. And it's been really great. It's, it's a, it's a great community of folks. We're reading a book together now, which is, is fun. And we're hoping to do sort of a book club type meeting soon. I will say like, you know, speaking particularly as a Black person, I think that atheopaganism has this particular appeal as like an explicitly modern creation. And. think, you know, again, speaking from a distance, I've never been in a community like this before, but I see a lot of hints of sort of pagans meticulously recreating their own genealogy to, like, figure out what gods they should worship or what practices they should have or whatever trying to reconstruct these, like, ancient practices. And if you're a Black person in America, odds are that's not even an option for you, right? There's only so far back you can go. So I think that there's a, there's a little psychic relief that I found and like, oh, well, I don't even have to worry about my ability to know, you know, exactly what corner of what place my ancestors came from to like use these tools. I can just focus on the now and focus on the land that I'm on. And I'll say too, now I'm just sort of riffing, but Mark: hmm. Lauren: you know, I would really love to just serve as an example that, That this space isn't just for, like, crunchy white people, and I think that that is a stereotype of paganism that I've encountered in the Black community, personally, that, like, you know, it's, it's just a stereotype that's out there. Like, we have just as much need and, and right to access these practices as anyone else. So, I think there's maybe some unlearning that I had to do and, and some unlearning that lots of us have to do to be Anything we want to be and not just what society says we should be or should stay away from. So, I like to, I would like to think that I can help just make explicit that this is a path that is open to everyone no matter what your origin, no matter what your skin color. Mark: Absolutely. And I was so grateful when you created the BIPOC Affinity Group, because I really wanted there to be one. Obviously I couldn't have anything to do with the creation of that. And other people in the community were just too busy they, they, you know, they weren't going to make the lift in order to make that happen, but it was so important that it be there. I will say a thing about what you were riffing on, which is that when I first created atheopaganism, it was just for myself. As, you know, an American who doesn't have any, like, family legacy of English or Irish or Scottish things, just kind of a person plunked here on Turtle Island with a relationship with land, but no inheritance of culture other than capitalism, and so I, you know, I crafted it with the idea that it would be modern and informed by modern values. But there are people in the community for whom, you know, like Indigenous people, for example, you know, for whom drawing back on those cultural threads is really important. And so, it's not... It's not that you can't do that, it's that you don't have to. You can still have a powerful practice that's very meaningful to you, starting from modernity and your own life and your own experience. Lauren: Yeah, Mark: yeah. Lauren: yeah, I completely 1000 percent agree. And I should say, like, the, you know, some of the folks in the BIPOC group are like reading a book about hoodoo, which is a magical practice developed by people who came to America through enslavement. And, yeah, I definitely see value in looking back and drawing on, on traditions and, you know, white, white American culture in the last 400 years, that's a culture too. And there's, there's stuff to draw from everywhere. I think that, sorry, I'm losing my train of thought here. No, there, there's something to draw from. And, and there, in every culture, right, there are magical traditions in your, in your family tree, right? And often for people of color, I think they're a little bit overlooked. One great little fact that I read in trying to educate myself more about these traditions in the African American community was that when folks were escaping slavery on the Underground Railroad, they would carry magical totems with them to give them bravery. And I just love the idea that You know, sure, there, maybe there's no quote unquote real magic there, but the bravery is real and the political action it led to is real, so, yeah, I absolutely don't mean to say, like, working, looking backwards isn't, isn't good or isn't worth it or anything, but I, I really appreciate the, the emphasis on modernity and, and that you can make this what you want, whether or not you have access to looking back in your own ancestry. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: And we've been using the term BIPOC, I think that might be a little bit new for some people. Some people are familiar with it, but can you define that for our listeners who haven't come across this term before, or have only seen it written? Lauren: Absolutely. Thanks for that flag. Black, Indigenous, and People of Color, BIPOC. That's what that stands for. And I should say too, you know, our community, the BIPOC group is, is small, it's still developing, as it should, and I think that we aren't necessarily committed to using that term forever. There are Interesting debates happening within various cultural groups in, you know, I can only speak about, I think, the U. S., but within the U. S. about what umbrella term we should use to refer to ourselves and, and those things are in flux. So that name isn't chiseled in stone, but it's a handy shorthand, I think, for racialized groups in the United States to, to come together in this moment for the purposes of this community. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, that's great. Thank you. You know, I, I was just in DC a few weeks ago on a lobby trip. And I had the good fortune of getting a reservation to go to the National Museum of African American Culture and History. I've I mean, honestly, I think every American should be marched through there the, it was profound and infuriating and tragic and inspiring and just an extraordinary experience and I really recommend it to anyone who doesn't feel that they have a grounding in, in what that experience is, at least to the degree that I can get my mind around it as not being that kind of person  Lauren: got the chance to go before we left DC and it's, it's an amazing museum. Hard recommend. Yeah. Mark: So, you're now on the Atheopagan Society Council and you've talked a little about, you know, some of your, some of the roles that you kind of see yourself as playing within the community. Where, where do you see us going? What I mean, we're, we're relatively recent. We I, I published the essay that became the book in 2009 which is now starting to be some years ago but time is slow that way Yucca: council's been around four years at this point. Mark: right, right, the, we only just got our non profit Thank you. You know, status a couple of years ago and but that was an important step to say this is more than about individuals that are working within this community now. We want to create a container and a vehicle for these ideas, you know, to be sustained into the future. So, you've, I know you've been to one meeting, but do you have  Yucca: a member of the community for quite a while now as well, Lauren: Yeah, yeah, a year ish or so. Yeah. Man, I, I guess my hopes are really simple, that it just keeps growing, and it stays inclusive, and that it We become a place where folks from all walks of life feel comfortable. I should say I'm also part of the parents affinity group. I have a young child and we've been talking about some really cool stuff, like maybe a scouting program. And... I think that there are so many people who are in a similar boat to me, where like they're, they're parenting, they didn't necessarily grow up with a pagan, much less an atheopagan, orientation towards things, and they're trying to figure out how to raise kids with these values, so I hope that that space in particular continues to grow. I think I've, I've heard you, Mark, maybe on another episode talk about a book of rituals that you're coming out with. I think it would be wonderful if... We start seeing folks sharing examples of how they celebrate the seasons and, and life transitions, and I know that like some of that is out there already, but I think for, for lots of people, including myself, there's both. There's like a path paving there that can be really helpful to see examples of how you actually like do atheopaganism. And. And also a sense of community when you know, you know, of course, like, you know, a ritual for me here in New York City probably wouldn't relate with the land and in the same way that it would for either of you in different parts of the world, but it's nice to think about some commonality, because I think You know, Mark: mm hmm, Lauren: when you're in Catholic Mass and you know that this Mass is really similar to a Mass happening hundreds of miles away, that, that builds that sense, so, finding common threads if we can, I think, would be a nice way to keep the community cohesive, even as it continues to grow and, and spread and, and morph based on the geography of, of the particular atheopagan or atheopagan family. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, now that you mention it the idea comes to mind, I mean, my book is coming out in April, and it's much more of a how to book than the first Atheopaganism book, which was, the first half of which is theory, really and then the second is about the principles and, you know, doing rituals and the holidays and all that kind of stuff. But maybe another project would be editing a crowdsourced ritual book. Yucca: like an anthology, Mark: Yeah, so, you  Yucca: out to the community and getting Mark: yeah, Yucca: not everybody, but whoever wants to share their insights and sharing that, that could be really, that could be amazing, I Mark: That could be really good. Yeah, I mean, the other thought that I had that I floated a while ago, and it just seems that nobody has the spoons for it, is a parenting book that I would edit. But I can't write because I'm not a parent. Yucca: Well, I am really interested in that one. It just needs to, gotta get the timing to work on that if other people are interested as well. Mark: I really  Yucca: I can't do the whole book, but I think that there's some sections that I'd be able to do. Mark: great, yeah, and I mean, I, I think the, one of the things that we are presented with now as an opportunity is the whole question about families and kids and how we engage families and, you know, basically build Culture within family units, right? Which I just think is so exciting. And I know John Cleveland Host, who's currently the chair of the Atheopagan Society, I mean, his, he kind of stumbled into all of this because of wanting to have culture for his children. So, yeah, it's that really presents a, a great opportunity, I think. Yucca: And we're getting folks now with different ages. I mean, his kids, his oldest are probably going to be off to college soon, right? And a lot of, I know there's a lot of us with real little ones, but there's a good range of... of ages as well. Mark: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah oh, I'm just, I, I can see the book sitting on a shelf right now, and it's not, it's not very thin either. There's a, there's a lot in it. Yucca: Well, and even just within the, the umbrella of paganism in general, there aren't a lot of parent books. I mean, there's Circle Round, there's, Lauren, can you think of any others that Lauren: I mean, when I was pregnant, I looked and I have Circle Round sitting on my bookshelf. Mark: too. Lauren: I think there's I'm, I'm blanking on the title, but there was another book with sort of like things for, you know, stories for kids. Of course, I think there's all sorts of. of material for kids to engage with the seasons, but in terms of actual parenting tips or, or guides, no, family practices, no, no. I don't think there's, if there's stuff out there that I haven't found it, so I would be really grateful for some sort of anthology coming out of the community. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Gotta happen. Yucca: And then, of course, I don't think there's anything specifically from an atheist point of view. Right, there's plenty of like you were saying, the seasonal kind of secular stuff that's like, yes, it's fall and the leaves are changing, but not really something that is, that's coming at it from that angle. Mark: right. Lauren: Yeah. And I know that Like I know some folks who are involved in like Unitarian Universalist congregations, and I think they might have some curriculums and things for kids, but, so there, and I think the Humanist Society, I don't know, they might have some stuff. So there's probably like things out there that we could draw from, but nothing that weaves together all of the pieces that make the atheopagan community special. So I think it would be neat if we could make a contribution like that. Yucca: And I like books, I like to have a book in my, like I appreciate podcasts and blogs and all of that, but there's something very different in terms of the experience of turning a page and sitting on the You know, sitting cuddled under the blankets with the kitty cat next to you as you, like, turn the pages and sip your warm drink. It's just a very different experience. Yeah, Mark: Yeah, Lauren: yeah. And I will say I think Mark mentioned the John Cleland Host and Pagan Families episode, and Arwen, I think you were on that one too, right? Yucca: it was, Lauren: I bookmarked it and listened to it several times because, like, oh, there's so much in here! Yeah, I think that there's, there's endless wisdom that folks who have been parenting in the atheopagan community could pass on to folks like me who are just starting out and it would be wonderful to have it as a book that you could cuddle up with for sure. Yucca: How old's your little one, by the way? Lauren: He's one and a half. Yucca: and a half. Oh, Mark: tiny.  Yucca: That is a Lauren: little.  Yucca: so fun, though, right? Everything is opening up now. Lauren: yeah, tons and tons of fun. Yeah, we're, we've been really happy as parents and Yeah, I just hope that we're able to raise him with a sense of community and I think we have that in lots of ways, but I would love for him to feel a connection to this community if that feels right to him and to you. To give him the good parts of being raised with religion that I received without any of the baggage would be, would be great if we can figure out how to do that. Mark: One of the things that I'm really excited about when I think about atheopagan parenting is giving kids the skills to do rituals themselves so that they can work with their psychology. We don't really give kids very many tools in terms of emotional regulation and, you know, kind of changing your mental state, your emotional frame, all that kind of stuff. We just, we don't see that modeled. And, you know, I just... I'm really excited at the prospect of a 12 year old who decides, okay, I'm going to light a candle, and I'm going to contemplate that candle, and it's going to calm me down, and I'm going to be okay about what Marianne said at school, you know, that kind of thing. So, Lauren: Yeah, like you, you know, as your brain is developing in those teenage years, that's when you need those tools the most in some ways and I think that's why I was so drawn to it as a teenage girl myself and You know, I have read a fair few, I guess, gentle parenting type books that, that, talk about introducing things like breathing techniques to your kids. So I am hopeful that some of that stuff that we might call rituals and other people might call, you know, just mindfulness practices, Mark: mm hmm. Lauren: are making their way into parenting culture with folks who are becoming parents now. There's, there's so much more that could be explored and could be articulated for kids and I would love that for my own child for sure. Mark: Yeah, because the world of ritual, it feels so good, and it can be so... Enlightening with a lowercase e in terms of understanding yourself, seeing what your proclivities are and what your core beliefs are, and kind of understanding what your lens is on the world, and maybe seeing some of the limitations of that, and being able to better understand how other people see the world. There's just so much in it, and, you know, I've been a pagan since 1987. And Yucca, of course, you know, you were raised pagan and I still feel like I'm only kind of nibbling at the edges of all of the things that it can do for me. Yucca: Yeah  Mark: and the richness that it brings to my life. Yeah, I think so too, Yucca: we're really, you know, sorting through that. Mark: yeah. Lauren: Yeah, Mark: That was one thing, you know, when I thought about, okay, you know, how we're going to merge atheism with paganism, how is that going to work it occurred to me that the big piece that comes with the paganism is 50 or 60 years of experience accumulated in how to do effective rituals. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: Because the atheist side didn't have that. We, we have lots of folks that come into our community and they're like how do I get started? What do I do first? I, I, I get it with all the values and the worldview, but how do I do this practice? Yucca: Yeah. Lauren: yeah. Yucca: One of the things that I really value about that from the parent perspective is that one of the things that we're doing for our kids is helping them to develop skills. And then when they grow up, they're going to go in the direction that they went, right? How many people do most of our community were raised in different religions than their parents, right? And that's okay, right? People make different choices. But I want my kids to have whatever religion they end up being. Whether they stay in the pagan community or not, I want them to have those tools to be able to calm themselves down, to look at themselves, all those things that you were just talking about, Mark, and have the, those ritual skills, even if, you know, I would, doesn't fit me, but if they decide they want to become theists and they believe in a god, then, then great, they have these skills that they can use within that context that's going to help them live a happier, more fulfilled life. Lauren: Yeah, Yucca: it's really beautiful that we're trying to do that as, as, you know, atheopagan parents. Lauren: I think that's beautiful, too. And, you know, while we're on this topic and we're talking a little bit about practice, it just occurs to me to name that I, I really found the, the tools that I had available to me through my practice to be so helpful in getting through like pregnancy and the newborn stage and, and birth. And I had a really tough childbirth experience and it took me a long time to sort of bounce back from it. I found the newborn stage really hard and like, man, if there's ever a time when, like, you've got to lean into your, your meditative or your, your safe place exercises, it's like those first couple weeks postpartum, right? It's just, it's really tough stuff. And If there, if there's anyone who's out there who's, who's pregnant and thinking about making space for this in their life, like I, I could not give enough of a thumb. Obviously, you know, postpartum, also do all the things that you need to do for your mental health, the therapy, or whatever other support systems you need, but I think that this is, Yucca: too, Lauren: and the physical stuff, absolutely, like this is, you know, I'm, I'm not trying to say anything that discounts, like, Traditional Western medicine or, or psychotherapy or anything like that, but just having another set of tools, I think, really helped me in early parenthood and the sort of the transition between pregnancy and birth and parenting. I'll also say that I think You know, for folks who are trying to figure out ritual practices and maybe are also parents of young kids, like, it doesn't have to be an hour. It doesn't have to be like, I don't have an hour. It's a lot of my practices are just extremely short. You know, Yucca: 45 seconds with the bathroom door locked? Lauren: Exactly, you know, or picking up a, I do a lot of sort of like, I guess I'd call them like totems, you know, I have particular little objects that help put me in a particular mindset, you know, it could just be as simple as picking up that particular ring and putting it on your finger, you know, and, and that's enough to shift your mindset. So I think talking about ritual in an abstract way can be a little bit intimidating, but it can be as simple, as simple or as elaborate as you want it to be. Mark: Yeah, I find that the things that I have on my focus are all, they're things that have stories associated with them in my mind. So they have an associative meaning, right? It's not just a seashell. It's a seashell that I found when I was 11 on the Costa del Sol in Spain. You know, it's, it's got a, that was stirred up by a huge storm that Brought all these shells up onto the beach. So, the charging of items... Which obviously isn't really a physical process. It's a psychological process. It's building a strong association between a thing and a state of mind, right? That's a very, very powerful practice and it's one that anybody can do and it's, and it's a way to do a quickie ritual, right? Yeah, you pick up the ring, you put it on, okay, now I've got my bravery ring. Lauren: Yeah, exactly. And I guess it occurs to me, I don't know if totem is like a word I'm accidentally appropriating from some group, maybe I should say talisman, but yeah, the idea of having an object that just has that story. I think that can be really powerful and it's really short and simple but isn't enough to sometimes turn your day around or give you that extra boost and I think a lot of my practice has been, you know, especially sort of before I had a kid. It was all stuff to just, like, make me work harder or make me braver in, in political action, and I'm trying to have a more open mind these days about what I can use it for, that it, it isn't just a thing I should use to help me churn out another couple pages on a legal brief. It's like something that I can use to just, like, expand myself or, or heal myself or just have fun or, or whatever it is it, I think I'm trying to broaden my mind and, and encourage other people to have a broad mind about what it can do for you. Mark: yeah, one of the pieces that we That we often, it doesn't get talked about in the pagan community very much is how pleasurable ritual can be. It just feels good. And that, in and of itself, is a perfectly fine outcome. That's a great outcome, right? You know, you're in a bad mood, so you go and you do a thing, and then you're not in a bad mood. Well, that's wonderful!  Yucca: Or you're not even in a bad mood to start with. Mark: No, you're just Yucca: You're just, yeah, it Mark: messing around with candles and incense and cool objects, and it just feels really cool, and you feel sort of wizard y, and it's all fun. Lauren: Yeah, it's inherently fun, often. Yeah.  Mark: It's play. It's a form of play. Lauren: Yeah. Mark: Well, Lauren... Yucca: there resources that you, you'd mentioned that you had some resources and things you wanted to share with the Lauren: Yeah I do, I have a couple of things. So the first takes like a little bit of explanation, but I don't know if listeners are familiar with the concept of environmental justice or environmental racism, but Environmental racism is the disproportionate impact of environmental hazards on people of color. It's a term used at least in the U. S. and I think also internationally. And environmental justice is the idea that basically in short you're going to stop poisoning people, period, all people. Yucca: Sounds like a great idea. Lauren: it does, doesn't it? Nice and simple. And that definition is from a website called ejnet. org. And there... On that website, and I can share the link for the show notes, there's a list of principles of environmental justice that I find really inspiring, and it was written by a group of people of color, environmentalists, environmental activists in 1991 at a convening. And the very first principle of the, I think it's, yeah, 17. Yucca: And is that environmental justice action? Is that what Lauren: This is ejnet. org is the website, ejnet, yeah, I can, I can send a link, but, the first principle in that document reads, environmental justice affirms the sacredness of Mother Earth, ecological unity, and the interdependence of all species, and the right to be free from ecological destruction. So I just think it's really, really special that In my mind, part of what atheopaganism is doing is affirming that sacredness of Mother Earth and opening up a path for all people to do that, that really aligns with this foundational document of environmental justice. So I just think that's cool. Yucca: Hmm. Lauren: Yeah, Mark: up a little bit. Lauren: it's really beautiful.  Mark: it is. It's Lauren: yeah, it is. And I encourage everybody to, yeah, check out those principles and, and to get involved in environmental justice wherever you are. Yeah, just a couple of books that I feel like have sort of helped me in this intersection between action, political action, and pagan stuff. There's a great book called Revolutionary Witchcraft by Sarah Lyons. Mark: Yeah, Lauren: A short book. I can't remember if there's theism in there, so sorry if there is, but it's really great. It's short. Everyone should read it. There's another great book called Rest is Resistance by Tricia Hershey that I just read, and it was one of those real aha books. It just talks about... Ways to honor yourself, honor your body, and kind of break free of what she calls grind culture. So this idea that you have to be productive all the time, that's a product of like capitalism and colonialism, and it's something that I really struggle to resist. So I thought that that was great. Two more things. There's this book called Hope in the Dark Solnit, I think is how you say it. Really short book that just sort of emphasizes Don't give up hope that we can make the world a better place. The world is really complicated and Things can and do get better even when they seem really bleak. And then the last resource I'll share is this wonderful podcast from Emergence Magazine, and I think that's actually the name of the podcast. And it has episodes on all different topics that explore the connections between culture, spirituality, and ecology. And they've had like Robin Wall Kilmer on all sorts of, of authors exploring this intersection. And again, some of it might be sort of more like a little bit more woo than some of the folks who listen to this podcast like, but there's a lot of really great stuff there. Listening to each episode is just like a gift, so I recommend that as well and I can, I can share like links and, and all of those, those names and authors in case people want to look them up. And then the last thing I would just say if you'll indulge me in this like quote this quote I really love I'm not a teacher, only a fellow traveler of whom you asked away. I pointed ahead, ahead of myself as well as you, so please, like, I offer everything I've said with humility. I'm working all of this out myself, and I'm really happy to be working it out with other folks in this community. Mark: that's really beautiful. Thank you. You know, fun fact. The first pagan ritual I ever went to, when I was invited by a friend back in 1987, was to a coven which included Rebecca Solnit's brother. Lauren: Wow. Small world. Mark: Yep, very small world. Lauren: Well, I guess that's another example of these connections between the activist world and the pagan world run, run deeper and are everywhere. Mark: Yep, they are. Well, Lauren,  Yucca: so much. They're saying the same thing, but no, really, this is so exciting to have you here with us and part of the community and just everything you're saying is just, just yes. So wonderful. So thank you so much. Mark: and thank you for your work. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: You know, those of us that are in the environmental field can feel really beat up a lot of the time, and the organizations we work for, even the big ones, are under resourced relative to the industries that they're up against. and the headwinds politically that they're up against. And so, thank you for all the effort it took to get the credentials that you needed to be able to do the work you're doing and for the work that you're doing in the world. Thank you. Lauren: That's very kind and it's, it's my pleasure to do it and I'm really grateful for the opportunity to just come on here and, and riff on all these things and You know, thank, thank you both for creating this community that's been such a source of, and for everyone really who's involved, who, who are co creating this community that's been such a wonderful space. It's, you know, after a hard day of doing hard stuff and thinking about pollution on long timelines, it's such a wonderful treat to just like listen to an episode of this podcast or check out the Facebook group. It's been a tremendous source of, of solace for me, and I hope that it is for everyone. for other activists who might find their way into this space. So yeah, really, really grateful all around. Mark: Well, thank you so much. And with that, I think that's a good place for us to stop. Gratitude is always a good place to land on. So, thanks once again. Thanks to all our listeners. And we'll be back next week with another episode of The Wonder of Science Based Paganism.    

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. An Atheopagan Declaration of Policy Values (2022): https://theapsocietyorg.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/an-atheopagan-declaration-of-policy-values-2022.final_.pdf S4E30 TRANSCRIPT:   Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca. Mark: And I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: And today, we're talking about religion and politics. Mark: Yes, but don't turn it off. Yucca: Yes, we were saying, what should we call this? What should we call this? But no, this is, this is important. This is what we're going to talk about. And there's a lot to say here. But today it was inspired because, Mark, you just got back from a trip, which you got to do some pretty cool politicking. Mark: Yes I went to Washington, D. C. as a part of a fly in delegation by the Conservation Alliance, and I'll tell some of those stories later advocating for protections for public lands, including the designation of some new national monuments. So, I, as I said, I'll, I'll talk about that stuff later but yeah, just got back from a lobby trip, Yucca: Yeah. So one of the things that... It is very common to hear in pagan circles, and I think probably not just pagan circles, but a lot of new age things and kind of, mini counterculture sorts of groups, is, you know, don't bring politics. into this, right? Don't, don't bring politics into my religion. Don't, you know, we, we aren't going to talk about that. We're not going to be this is separate, right? Let's be, let's be off in our realm or our magical experience and leave that other stuff out. Mark: right? And there is so much to be said about that. I mean, it has a nexus with toxic positivity. This idea that, you know, we should only talk about happy, shiny stuff, and that, you know, we're going to have this nice, warm, glowy, serotonin oxytocin experience by doing our, our spirituality, and we're just not going to engage with anything that doesn't stimulate that. It has to do with the toxicity that we see in the societies around us where the mainstream religions are engaging with public policy and they're doing it for really destructive and antisocial reasons. And so that becomes sort of the poster child for why you wouldn't want you to have politics in your spiritual space. But a lot of it, in my opinion, is simply... We don't want to think about any of those issues because they might bring us down. Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. But, and there's just so much to say because there's, it's going to depend on every different kind of situation but I think that if we think about the values that We often claim to have that we value the earth, that we think the earth is sacred. You know, we may have different interpretations on, you know, whether divinity is involved with that or not, but hey, we're agreeing, we think that the earth is important, we're agreeing about believing that love and freedom and all of these things are important, then I think that... If we really believe that, then we have a responsibility to those things. Mark: Yes, yes, we it's because they won't happen by themselves. You know, there are interests which are destructive interests and are not filled with love and are not about advancing liberty and are not about supporting the biosphere in a manner which is consistent with biodiversity and with the sustaining of humanity. And they're out there advocating for their stuff every day. And if we absent ourselves from the process because we think that it is too negative or too gross or too demoralizing, then we are leaving the field to those who would do us harm. And it's just not, there is no logic to it that makes sense to me, other than at the most sort of Self indulgent, I just want to feel good for me kind of place, where it makes sense to say, I'm not going to vote, I'm not going to advocate for what I care about, I'm not going to be interested in any kind of activism. I mean, everybody's circumstances Yucca: become informed about it, Mark: right. Yucca: right? Mark: Everybody's circumstances are different, and not everybody can be a big activist, right? You know, if you're, you know, you're raising kids, or, and you're, you know, scraping by, and, you know, there's a lot of different, I mean, poverty is a social control strategy. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: So, it is, it is one way that people who have the common good at heart are kept limited in the amount of power that they have. So let's, let's not mince words about that. But even with the limitations that we have, I have always felt that it was my responsibility to do what I can to try to advance the values that matter to me. And I'm pleased to say that the community that's grown up around atheopaganism is very much the same way. We're gonna, we're gonna put a Link in the show notes to the Atheopagan Declaration of Policy Values, which came out last year and was developed by the community with tons of community input and editing and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: There was a lot of back and forth and lots and lots of people participating and, you know, wording things just for, it was quite inspiring, actually. Mm hmm, Mark: the level, level of collaboration with the minimal amount of argument was very inspiring to me. And so now we have this document, and it can be downloaded from the Atheopagan Society website. So we're going to put the link in the, in the show notes so you can download that. But that's an example of the community speaking out on issues that really matter to us, and saying, this is where we stand. This is what our activism is going to be built around. This is, you know, we... We embrace LGBTQ people. We do. And it's not just, it's not just You know, so called virtue signaling, we genuinely do, we want those folks, we want people of color, we want indigenous people in our community, you know, we want them to be safe, we want them to be seen, we want them to be heard as, as an example. And similarly, along the environmental axis, along the axis of personal liberty and autonomy, bodily autonomy, all of those you know, the importance of critical thinking and science all of those pieces are a part of what our movement is about. And so, when we talk with the public, That is, that is core to what we express. Yes, we're here for happiness. We're here for people to feel good. We're all for that. But as one of the atheopagan principles says, you know, responsibility, social responsibility is one of our principles. Yucca: right. Mark: It is an obligation that we have. Yucca: And so those values, they're not just about talking about them, they're about, those are what inform the choices that we're making. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: Right? And being able to reflect on what those are, right? is really important. Have conversations about that, because we're not, there's going to be nuance, right? We're not always going to see eye to eye on things, and being able to, as individuals, talk about that with each other, and as a community, be able to, to talk about that and, and, you know, have that conversation is really important. Mark: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we learn from one another, right? I mean, that's a really important piece because As strongly as I feel on a value level about supporting people of color in the LBGTQI plus community I'm not one of either of those groups. And so I have to listen a lot in order to understand, well, what is an appropriate statement to make in support, right? How do I show up as an ally and as and as an advocate? Or a supporter for their advocacy, you know. So, you know, it's not as simple as just having a laundry list of policy positions. And it has to also recognize that we live in a world of subtle differences. Right? Subtle gradations of change throughout the whole natural world, and that includes humanity. So, I get really kind of bent sideways when I hear the lesser of two evils, or I'm not going to vote for that person because of this one little position, when the alternative is so much worse on every position. The best analogy that I've heard is that voting isn't dating, it's selecting, it's selecting the best possible option off of the available menu. And the available menu only includes people that actually have a chance of getting elected. It's not just some fringe outlier who tells you what you want to hear. Yucca: mhm, Mark: that can actually get into a position to make change in a positive direction. Yucca: mhm, mhm, mhm. Mark: So, we had a bunch of stuff on the outline for this podcast. What else have you got? Yucca: Well, certainly the, the issue of privilege is definitely Mark: Oh, yeah  Yucca: and this is something that I think comes up where people will be unaware of the place of privilege that they may be coming from to be able to say, I don't want to deal with this. I don't want this coming into, you know, my religion or my, anything about that, because that, that isn't the position that most people are going to be in that situation, right? Yeah. Mm Mark: Yeah the, I think the clearest way to express that is that if you have the luxury of saying, Oh, I don't want to vote that just encourages them, or I'm not going to consider any of those issues because I just want to be on my, you know, spiritual path of lightness and joy thing. Is that people that are marginalized and endangered by the way our society operates, they don't have the luxury to do that. If you look at voting rates, for example, African American women vote astronomically in high proportions in the United States. And the reason for that is that the interests of the community that they are in are, are, are stark. The, you know, the threats that certain people like a Donald Trump and the people that he brings with him present to that community are so real. They're not, they're not theoretical. It's not just something where, where as a white person, you look at it and go, Oh, gee, that's too bad. This is life and death for them. And they turn out to vote. They're organized. They're knowledgeable. You know, these are people who are, are leveraging the power that they have absolutely as much as they can. And when I hear people say, you know, oh, well, I'm not going to vote because blah, blah, blah. What I, what I really hear is, I am so cushioned from the impacts of the policies that get made by people that I don't... Agree with in theory that I can just skate on this and ride on, on the, the, the privilege that I enjoy in the society in order to avoid having to deal with something that I might find icky. Yucca: yeah, I'm being served by the system, fundamentally. Yeah. Mark: So, you know, I'll give an example. It's like, an argument can be made that the certain proportion of people who in, in key states who supported Bernie Sanders, And then refused to vote for Hillary Clinton may have given us Donald Trump. It's not that they had to agree with everything that Hillary Clinton said because they didn't, I didn't. But the appointees that she was going to make, the appointees to the Supreme Court, the appointees to the, the cabinet positions, the appointees to federal judgeships. All of those things were going to be head and shoulders above any of the things that Trump ended up doing. And it's painful to say, but those people needed to look at the big picture and go and vote for Hillary Clinton. And they didn't. And it's that, it's that, that sense of privilege, that sense of it not mattering that much that I really think needs to be interrogated on the left. And I am on the left, right, but I'm on the left that seeks to achieve progress because I'm a progressive, and progress happens in incremental steps most of the time. Progress isn't a home run. Progress is a base hit, and electing Hillary Clinton would have been a base hit on the way towards achieving better policies. And instead, we have what we have. So, you know, and I realize that there are going to be people that are going to be fuming when they hear me say this but seriously, look at the playing board, and look at what we got, and You know, think about, well, what does this mean for the next election? Where, where should I be putting my support? Yucca: Hmm, yeah definitely was not expecting that, I was not prepared for that direction of the conversation. That's something that I would have to really think a lot on. I understand some of the sentiment behind it, but I would want to look more at some of the numbers. And some of the assumptions about who is entitled to what vote, and whether those, I think that there's a lot to that situation, and I don't feel comfortable, I mean, you certainly have the opinion that you want, but necessarily agreeing and and um humming without really looking at that particular situation. I think that there's a lot that was going on there. But I've certainly heard that argument a lot, and one of the things that I have been uncomfortable with is, and I'm not saying that you're saying this, but this is something that I have heard often, is the sense of entitlement of those people's votes. That, you know, somehow this party was entitled to people's votes. What about... So, you know, do the numbers actually work out of how many Democrats voted Republican in that situation versus how many Independents voted one direction or the other? I think that there's a lot to really look into there. Mark: Sure, sure. And I have looked into it some. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: I should be clear, I'm not saying that Hillary Clinton deserved anybody's vote, or was entitled to everybody's, to anybody's vote. I'm saying she deserved them from a strategic standpoint. Yucca: hmm. Mark: That when you look at the playing field, And what was the right next move, that that was the right next move. And in certain states like Wisconsin there were, there were enough votes that dropped off. That the argument can be made, but, but let's, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: let's make the whole thing abstract, okay? Rather than talking about that, that election in specific, let's talk about elections generally. When you have a situation where somebody who you agree with 50 percent is running against somebody who is agreeing with you 10%, And then there's somebody out there who agrees with you 100%, but they have no ability to be elected. And it's clear Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: You know, I need to go for the 50 percent because, again, I'm a progressive. So I want to see things advance, even if they're going to go a lot slower than I want them to go. Yucca: Right, well I think in some of that case it's going to depend on what are the particular changes that, and what are the things that you are placing at highest priority, right? And if one of the things that you're placing at high priority is trying to do something about the monopoly, then that the two parties have, I can see the logic of making a different choice there. But I think that the point, I think the point where we probably agree is that when you're voting, it's something to be very strategic about. It's to look at what is the situation where you are and what are the possible outcomes and thinking about You know, what are the values that you are, that you are fighting for in that case, right? What are they, right? Mark: and the key takeaway that I would, that I would leave this particular rabbit hole with is that not to vote is to vote. If you don't vote, you are Yucca: is voting, yeah. Mark: It is voting. So it is you know, you, you don't get away with your hands clean just because you don't vote, right? You, you bear a responsibility for election outcomes just like everybody else does. And that's a really important thing for people in democracies to understand. And I'll talk a little bit later on about democracy and the degree to which we have it and all that good kind of stuff. Yucca: And This is just one area, right? This is an area that we happen to be talking about because this is an area where, where this is something that there's some strong opinions on, and this is an area where people do have influence, but of course there's a lot of other things. As well, in terms of you know, commercial choices and lifestyle choices and all of that kind of stuff that we can but one thing I really want to highlight, and you touched on this a little bit before, but I think it really deserves its own section of the podcast as well, is that being able to spend large amounts of time on these issues is a form of privilege itself too, right? And this is not something that everyone has. And you don't have to be guilty and beat yourself up and you're not a bad pagan because you've got to do a 9 to 5 plus your two side jobs to even be able to Barely make rent, right? That's not, so we're not sitting here saying, oh, shame on, you're failing because you're not fighting oil rigs in the, you know, gulf and how come you're out there? Like, that's not what we're saying at all. And I think that it's really, really important to think about and balance in our lives the self care component. And, that sometimes, yes, it's, sometimes it is okay to just have your celebration and to not necessarily be talking about, you know, let's raise money for this, this particular candidate at this time, or something like that, but know that it does, that this stuff does have a place in the community, it is important, but it isn't, The, you don't have to be doing it all the time, if that's not what your, what your mental health needs. Mark: No, no, definitely not. And it's important for those of us that have the privilege to be able to engage the system in that way, either from the outside or the inside, that we recognize that privilege and use it. Right? You know, those of us that have the bandwidth, those of us who have You know, the thick enough skin and that have the energy and sometimes the money even just to travel, to go somewhere. I mean, the trip that I just took, I didn't pay for because otherwise I wouldn't have gone, right? But but it's, it's, that kind of privilege is very visible. It's like, The D. C. is a very, very African American town. It's a very Black town. Lots and lots of Black folks, and, until you get into the Congressional buildings, and there it whitens up considerably Yucca: Mm Mark: with the lobbyists and the, you know, the constituents that are going not, not universally, of course but noticeably, and it is incumbent upon those of us who have been there. The privilege to be able to engage, to do what we can to improve justice, and to speak for the things that we care about so that they can advance. Yucca: hmm. Mark: So, I could talk about my trip. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, you were just talking about D. C., so, Mark: Okay, well. So, I got sent on a fly in with the Conservation Alliance, which is a consortium of businesses which was originally founded by REI, the North Face Peak Design, and Patagonia. And they came together to create a unified voice for speaking up for the outdoors, for for wild lands and outdoor recreation. That was a long time ago, and now they have 270 businesses from a variety of different sectors, and what they do every couple of years is they gather a bunch of the leaders of those businesses along with, and they make grants, right? They pool their money and they make grants to organizations that are doing organizing and advocacy for the issues that they care about, and the organization I work for, Cal Wild, is one of those. Yucca: mm hmm. So that's how you were able to go on this trip? Mark: Yes, CalWild was invited to send a representative, and I was selected to go, and so I went. This is not the first time that I've been to Washington to lobby, but the last time was in the 90s. So it's been a while. And everything has changed, of course. I mean, technology has changed everything, and 9 11 has changed all the security. So, it's, it's just a completely different experience. So, so I went and I was going to speak on to, as a grantee, to speak as a content expert about the positions that we're trying to advance. My organization right now is working very hard. for the creation of three new national monuments in California. My organization is limited to California, so that's why, you know, that. But we're also advocating for some policy changes at the administration level, which would affect the whole of the United States. And I should say, you know, we're talking a lot about kind of American politics in this podcast, but if you have a representative democracy of any kind, the things that we're talking about are really applicable to you too. Yucca: Right. Yeah, we're just talking about our experience with our Mark: the stuff we know about. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, the idea here is not to get everybody all plugged into American politics. It's to use that as an example of what citizen participation or resident participation looks like and why it's important. I go on this trip and I go to Washington and I meet with the team and we have a training briefing and all that kind of thing, and my take, we, on the first day, I had two meetings with administration offices with the Department of the Interior and the Council on Environmental Quality of the White House now when we're meeting with staff, we're not meeting with the people that are in charge in those agencies, we probably would have met with the Secretary of the Interior, but it's Climate Week in North Northern New York, so she was away at Climate Week, Yucca: Mm Mark: Um, so, and there was something going on with the Department of Environmental Quality such that we had the staffer that we had. But these are sharp, smart, influential people that we're talking to, and the sense that I got, and then the second day we had meetings with California delegation members both to the Senate and to the House of Representatives, including my congressman which I had a very interesting experience with talking to my congressman's office in Washington, so I'll get to that in a minute. Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: The main takeaway that I got from, especially from meeting with the administration, was that they want to do what we want them to do. Their, their hearts are in the right place. And they are delighted that we are coming to Washington and talking to people, and organizing on the ground in local communities, because they need the political cover to be able to do what we want them to do. Yucca: hmm. Mark: And in that Yucca: like that's charging them up, right? They want to do it, but they need to be charged with the power of the people. Mark: yes, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Exactly so. And... It gives them something to point to when opponents say, we don't want that, Yucca: Mm Mark: right, they can, you know, they can point to the organizing that my organization is doing and say, well, the people in the community who live right next door want it, you know, the elected officials of the county where the expansion of the National Monument is proposed, they want it. So, You know, those are their representatives and they elected them to office to make those decisions, so why shouldn't we do this? So it's really important to be doing that kind of community organizing and talking to other people about the things that you care about in a, you know, in a focused way. So that was really gratifying to me because, of course, American democracy has taken a beating over the last 20 years, but it's still functioning. Thank you. The elections are kind of messed up, and we could certainly do without gerrymandering and and all the dark money, and I could go on, but as well as the occasional insurrection, which I really, really think we could do without. I walked Yucca: that's not an, let's have that be a singular thing, please. Mark: yes. I walked several times, because the house office buildings and the senatorial office buildings are on opposite sides of the capitol. I walked back and forth in front of where the insurrection took place a bunch of times. And there it is, you know, large is life. And, you know, there are the windows they broke, that's how they got in, you know, there's where they hung their banners, you know, all that. So, that said it was encouraging to see that at least under this administration, There was a commitment to listening to constituents and to hearing, you know, they were very appreciative of the businesses that were represented there, you know, in, you know, speaking up on behalf of protecting public lands so that their ecological values last forever, their recreational opportunities there, all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Actually, is that something you can, I know that we're talking kind of more process here, but for a moment, you were, talking about trying to get more national monuments. Why are those important? Mark: Oh, good. Very, very good question. My organization focuses on conservation of wild lands on public lands. And a lot of Yucca: you keep going, can you define conservation? Because that is a term that has a lot of different baggage attached to it. So what do you mean when you say conservation? Mark: man protection of the land so that it will not be developed in certain ways. And management of the land for the resource, for the benefit of the resources that are there, of the ecological resources, cultural resources in some cases historical resources, and recreational opportunities for people to go camping or hiking or whatever that might be. So, one... One misapprehension that many Americans have is the idea that public land is protected land. And it is not. Most public land in the United States is owned by the Bureau of Land Management or by the U. S. Forest Service. And those have been managed primarily for extractive purposes like logging and mining and Yucca: Oil is big Mark: and oil exploration. Yucca: yeah. Mark: Yeah, very big. So we're advocating for chunks. of undeveloped land to be protected in perpetuity and managed for the benefit of those values. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: That's what a national monument does. Or a National Wilderness Area, which is declared by Congress. We're not asking for a National Wilderness Area in the areas we're focusing on because Congress is broken, and there's no way to get anything through it. the President can use the National Antiquities Act to declare a national monument. He can do that on his own. Yucca: So, by taking , these areas, you're setting aside, you're allowing ecosystems to stay intact, right? So that you can have the populations of these animals and plants or whatever. Particular kind of species you're looking at, they have a place to be, they can continue to play the roles that they would play in a hopefully healthy system and to help manage for that, Mark: Right, and that helps us to accomplish a couple of important things, one of which is, you know, we have a biodiversity crash problem, you know, the, the biodiversity of the earth is the, which is the number of different species and the number of individuals of those species are both on a steep decline. Having habitat is necessary in order for, you know, organization, organisms to live. And but not only that, this is a very interesting one. One of the things that we're advocating for is the expansion of Joshua Tree National Park. Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. Mark: And the reason for that is that because of climate change, Joshua trees are migrating out of Joshua Tree National Park. Yucca: Interesting. Mark: Over time, they're moving north because it's too hot Yucca: Because it's warm. Yeah. Okay. Mark: Yeah. So, it... Protecting these areas also enables the natural systems of the earth to do what they do in terms of adaptation, right? So, there's a place for the Joshua trees to go as the southernmost of them die because of excessive heat, and conditions become better for them outside of the park to the north. So that's just one example.  Yucca: And may I add that we of course want to protect these for simply the innate value of that being , has any right, as much right to be there as we do. But they also, the functioning system performs ecosystem functions, which is like cleaning the water and the air that we all breathe. So it's, it's not just that, oh, we like there being lots of animals and plants and fungi. It's that there needs to be. these plants and fungi and animals for life as we understand it to continue to function, Mark: right, exactly. And that requires, because everything is so fragmented now, it requires some level of active management in order to protect from invasions by invasive species, for example, which will wipe out all the biodiversity. Yucca: right? Or in my area of the world where we're missing keystone species, so we're missing whole ecological roles, there used to be these animals that aren't there anymore, and if you just take your hands off and you don't touch it, you fence that area off, that area will starve, quite literally, right? If you don't, if humans don't try, because it's kind of like the voting. No management is management. Mark: yes. Yucca: Right? It is a choice that we're making as well. And so we have to really be thoughtful about and understand the systems that we're dealing with. Mark: right. And there is so much science. I'm not saying we know everything, because we don't. There's an awful lot that we don't know, but there is a tremendous body of science about how to manage lands in order to improve biodiversity at this point. Yucca: And we're getting better at it. Mark: One of the things that we who work in the conservation sector, in the environmental sector, actually need to fight against within our own ranks is the group of people who still advocate for putting a fence around things and leaving it alone. Yucca: That's why I asked you a little bit about how you are using the term, because where I am, the term has been kind of changing a little bit, where we have kind of two different camps, which are the restorationists and the conservationists. And the conservationists are the people who, who are, you know, an anti gras, who are like, don't touch anything. Don't just fence it off. Don't know people know nothing. And then you've got the people who are going, well, let's look at the way the whole system works and maybe we do need to, you know, one, let's not keep kick the people off. 'cause you know, It's been here for 20, 000 years. But also, like, what, you know, what about the animals? What do we do for the, you know? So that's why I was kind of asking a little bit about that terminology there. Mark: here's a great example in California. There were devastating wildfires. that ran through Sequoia National Park. And in Sequoia National Park are the giant sequoia trees, these, you know, huge, vast, amazing, amazing Yucca: Amazing. Mark: awe inspiring. Well, because humans had been suppressing fire in those forests for a hundred years, when that wildfire ripped through, it burned much, much hotter than it ever would have otherwise, and killed a lot of those trees. Now, there's a big debate. The Park Service wants to replant seedlings of giant sequoias. in the burned area. And there are environmental organizations, self styled, that are saying, no, you can't do that. You just have to let nature take its course because that's the right thing. But we have been suppressing fire for a hundred years. We have been doing the most invasive, destructive thing that can be done to that ecosystem for a hundred years, and now you say we're supposed to leave it alone? That's ridiculous. You know, reseeding giant sequoias in that area is absolutely the right thing to do in order to keep the species from going extinct. And, I, I don't know, I mean, obviously this is what I believe. Yucca: I'm smiling as you're saying that because I used to work in stand management in the Jemez, and we had very, very similar, like, I can hear the two sides right now and it's, People get, have very, it's very emotional, right, and one of the things that happens, I think, is that people have very strong emotional connections without having some of the background to understand what is happening. And that goes back to what we were talking about before with some of our responsibility, I think, is that we have a responsibility to become informed about these Issues and learn about them and and be able to, if you're going to be involved in making choices about how these If this land is going to be managed, you need to understand the ecosystems that you're dealing with. Because our system, our ponderosa pine systems are very similar in terms of the fire ecology. You know, people become very, people are very concerned about thinning and controlled burns and things like that, and I think that they're coming from a good place. Their hearts in a good place in it, but are very, very misinformed about what the results of their actions will be if we do that. Mark: And there are two big pieces there that I think really are takeaways from all of this. The first one is that they are coming from a good place, but it's a romantic place. And we need to recognize in ourselves when we are romanticizing something rather than basing our decisions on facts. Yucca: Mm Mark: The second is... We have seen a terrible onslaught on the appreciation for expertise over the course of the last 40 years or so. And we need to respect the people who have letters after their names and understand deeply how things work. We need to listen to them. And they don't all agree with one another, that's fine. But in generally, in most cases, there is a scientific consensus. To some degree about what is the right course for these sorts of decisions. And we need to be listening to people that have devoted their lives to understanding these questions, rather than just thinking that because we like trees or we like nature, that we are in a position to make those kinds of decisions. Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mark: I'm speaking to you and you're in the process of getting letters after your name. Yucca: I have plenty of letters. I'm getting some more letters, but yes. Yeah. . Well, I had cut you off when you, in your story, to ask you to explain a little bit about the monuments, of why that was such an important issue for you to go across the entire continent. to talk about. Mark: That was a really important question. And as you mentioned this, yeah, it's true. I mean, there are a few reasons that I would put myself into an airplane at this point because of the impact on the atmosphere, but this is one that feels like on balance.  Yucca: Potentially for your lungs, too. Mark: yes, yes, that's true boy, although I came back here and oh my god, the smoke, we're, we're really, we're really buried in, in wildfire smoke right now. So, Going to, and, and, you don't have to go to D. C. in order to advocate for things you care about. First of all, a lot of decisions are local, and you can go and talk with local officials, or organize a contingent to go and talk with local officials. But also, your congressional representative has an office in your area. You can go and talk with them and let them know what you feel about things. Yucca: Well, and state level as well, Mark: state level, absolutely. Yucca: right? And it, you know, it's going to depend a lot on your state. The experience in a smaller, population smaller state it may be A lot easier, like in my state in New Mexico, going down to the roundhouses is super easy you just walk in and there's everybody and you just go up and talk to them. I would imagine in a more populated state, it's a little bit trickier, but it's still possible, right? Mark: The culture contrast between, you know, California, of course, is the most populous state, almost 40 million people and the culture in Sac, yes, between Sacramento, our state capital, and D. C. is really stark. When you go to lobby in Sacramento, If you're a Democrat, you almost never wear a tie. I mean, registered lobbyists will probably wear a tie. But if you just go as a constituent or as an advocate for, you know, one of our groovy left enviro positions, You can wear an open shirt and a sport coat, a pair of slacks, I mean, and, you know, you don't have to hide your tattoos and your piercings and all that kind of stuff, it's great. You go to Washington, it's a suit for a man. You wear a suit, you wear a tie. I left my earring in, but that was my one sort of concession. And and you're right, it's very organized and very regimented in Sacramento, just because of the sheer volume of people that are, that are traipsing through there. Yucca: hmm. Mark: But I, I really, I want to come back to this idea that elected officials are there in a democracy to represent you, and they may not know what you think, Yucca: hmm. Mark: so go tell them. You know, get informed on an issue and, you know, go tell them what you think, what you, what you would like them to do. It's more powerful when you've organized more people to be a part of that voice. And that's why the Conservation Alliance exists. And that's Yucca: many other organizations too, Mark: yes, yes. That's why that's why community organizers exist. To gather the voices of... Individuals into a collective voice that's able to make change happen and that's true in any representative democracy, so it's, it's well worth, you know, you know, sticking a hand in, and the people you're talking to are just people. They don't bite. At worst, they will frown. That's, that's Yucca: wrinkle their brow at you. Mark: Yeah, that's, that's about the worst of it. I didn't have any Republican visits this time, so, we were very welcomed and just very encouraged, and I think there are going to be some declarations coming up here in the next few months that will make us very happy. So it's bringing all this back around politics is How we as a collective society make decisions about what's important, what's not, and what's going to happen. And if you care about your world, and as atheopagans and naturalistic pagans, I believe our listeners do care about their world and about their fellow humans then it's incumbent on us to say so, and do things that make things better. Yucca: I keep having the image of Mary and Pippin sitting on Treebeard's shoulder and shouting, but you're part of this world too! Mark: Yeah, yeah, there's, because there are things in this world that are worth fighting for. Right? Yucca: Yep. Well, we could certainly go on for a long time, but I think this is a little bit of a longer episode, so we should probably finish up here. And we are going into October, and we have some fun, and some spooky, and some great episodes coming up. And Stinky, and all of those great things that we love to celebrate, and recognize, and all of those things, and this great Time of year. And happy autumn, everybody. Mark: Happy autumn! Yeah, Yucca: So, thanks, Mark. Mark: yeah, thank you so much, Yucca. It's a pleasure talking with you, and I'm still obviously really kind of jazzed about this trip, so thanks for welcoming a conversation about that into the podcast. Yucca: See y'all next week. Mark: All right, take care.

Listen in today's episode as entrepreneur extraordinaire Mark Walker shares Direct Digital Holdings journey. Mark reveals how laser-focusing on people, processes and credibility grew revenues from $6M to $120M in just five years. His insights on genuine networking and understanding capital raising are invaluable. We also explore leveraging AI for personalized ads and how concentrating on small wins propels growth. Mark's servant leadership style emphasizes collaboration in decision-making. Transitioning from private to public, Mark outlines assembling experienced boards through professional connections. Continuous learning, reading and informed networking develop strong leadership. This glimpse into Mark's exemplary journey offers a treasure trove of strategies for success. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Mark Walker, the co-founder and CEO of Direct Digital Holdings, emphasizes the importance of people, processes, and credibility in scaling a business from $6 million to $120 million in revenue within five years. He explains that adopting an "it's okay to fail" mindset and involving every team member in the hiring process can lead to a more efficient and collaborative team. The unique sales strategy of Direct Digital Holdings is shared, which involves dividing their sales groups into hunters and farmers, contributing to their remarkable growth. We discuss the significance of focusing on small wins and leveraging AI for personalized ads in accelerating business growth. He mentions that his leadership style is rooted in servant leadership, emphasizing collaboration in decision-making. Walker explains his strategy for assembling a board of directors to transition a company from private to public, highlighting the advantages of collaborating with law and accounting firms to recruit experienced board members. He stresses the importance of continuous learning, networking, and staying informed in maintaining effective leadership. Walker reveals his love for Gatlin's Barbecue and his dream of taking a 30-day sabbatical in Asheville, North Carolina. He explains that maintaining a genuine network of connections before needing something is a valuable tool for success. Walker also shares the importance of a company culture based on integrity, service to each other, and accountability. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Mark WalkerAbout Mark TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Mark Walker, co-founder and CEO at Direct Digital Holdings. Mark shares his views on how the importance of focusing on people and processes will help accelerate and manage the growth of your company. Mark, I want to thank you for being here today and being a guest on our podcast. Mark: Yeah, thank you for having us. Chris: So let's just get started by you telling us, tell us, direct Digital Holdings. What is that company? What are you known for? Mark: Yeah, very simply, direct Digital Holdings. What we do is we help companies buy and sell media and we leverage technology to do it. We have a buy side platform where we actually work with roughly about 250 different clients all across the United States, focused on the middle market, and when we look at the middle market, there are companies that are five to 500 million in revenue and we help them purchase media in order to drive our way of performance for their company. The second half of our business is Colossus SP, which is a supply side platform, and that side of the business we help publishers such as USA Today, gannett, hearst, brands of that Nature actually sell media in an automatic or programmatic way throughout the digital ecosystem, and so we work with about 26,000 publications, helping them sell media online and that's everything from digital banner ads to CTV, ot, streaming audio ads and help them generate revenue for their publications and for their websites. Chris: That's great. So what was your inspiration to start this company and grow it to where it is today? Mark: Yeah, absolutely. My business partner and I. We actually worked on another publisher, ebony Media, and while we were at Ebony we saw how the value chain of the programmatic ecosystem and media buying was changing. We saw that publishers were having difficulty specifically multicultural publishers were having difficulty getting connected into the programmatic ecosystem because their websites were too small and typically the larger players in the marketplace would want to work with publications that had 10 million unique visitors Well, anyone less than that. They didn't think it was worth their time giving them the technical expertise, know how, wherewithal, to connect into the programmatic ecosystem and purchase media automatically. So we saw the opportunity to buy two nascent platforms. One was Huddle Masses, which was the initial buy side platform. The other one was Colossus, which was the sell side platform. We put them together underneath one brand direct digital holdings and we started off with roughly about $6 million in revenue, and this year we're projected to grow to about 120 million in top line revenue over the course of these five years, and we've been really blessed and honored that many clients and partners have decided to work with us over this time. Chris: Yeah, I get a meant remarkable growth. Let's talk about a little bit. So this is your first stint at being an entrepreneur. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah it's myself and my business partner, Keith Smith. It's our first time really stepping into the role of operator. Previously I worked at startups. That's really where I first got my digital expertise and worked at Deloitte, worked at NRG Energy here in town and then also at Ebony Media. So all the while I've been working in the digital space, but this is my first entree into entrepreneurial space, really around the digital platform. Chris: So what were some of the lessons that you've learned, starting basically your own company and taking on that leadership role where everything you know, the buck stops with you? Maybe explain to our listeners, maybe, some of the things that that you've learned along that journey. Mark: Yeah, you know, I would kind of frame it up into three different categories. Chris: One one. Mark: It was about building up credibility in the marketplace. Having a good name, having a good reputation, having a network that you could lean on, I can tell you has been categorically valuable. That network is what I've leaned on for board members, what I've leaned on for contacts, relationships all throughout my career and really it's been 20 years of building up relationships that has come to fruition through this organization. Chris: That's number one. Mark: The second was really building up the credibility as well as the connections, but really the credibility of learning a craft and an expertise. That's been the second thing. And staying inside of the digital space and having 20 years of experience, it just kind of gives you secondhand knowledge of how things are gonna operate and how digital operates and flows. And then the third piece is understanding how to raise capital and put capital into the ecosystem. My business partner he came from private equity, worked on Wall Street and so he had the expertise and really brought that to bear, and so really it's been the culmination of those three things that we made a good partnership in bringing all three of those together. That's actually allowed us to have the success that we've had today. Chris: Yeah, it makes sense. I mean you can't, I think, overemphasize the importance of building really good relationships throughout your career, because you never know what you're gonna need to lean on them. Mark: No, that's exactly right. Yeah, my buddy, he gave me a saying a long time ago. He said network before you need something, and so I kind of lived by that ethos and I thought it was actually a good way of thinking about relationships. And usually if you do something good or nice for someone, even though you don't know how it's gonna come back to you, nine times out of 10, it always comes back when you need it, and that's really has been the story of our career and also our experience working with direct digital holdings. Chris: Yeah, I like that Network before you need something which said in other ways be genuine, right, build relationships in a genuine way, and then, yeah, it's always nice to help people out, and then if you do that from a point of genuineness, then it gets returned. It always gets returned somehow. So let's talk a little about your growth. I mean 6 million to 120. What are some of the things you feel like you and your co-founding partner have done to help kind of manage that growth, Because sometimes rapid growth can destroy a company. Anything that you can kind of share with us, that you think you all have kind of put into place to kind of manage this growth so that it's a healthy growth and that the company is sustainable. Mark: Yeah, absolutely, you know. It was really, you know, going from 6 million to roughly we did. God took about 30 million through an acquisition and so that was a good push for us and then, from that 30 million, really the next trunch from 30 to 90, which is what we did last year we really started working on processes. I can't stress enough in my experience back at Deloitte as well as with NRG really emphasize the importance of process people. You can't grow without people and you can't grow in an organized fashion without processes. And so we internally have been focused for the last two years really building up the processes and bringing new people into the organization to work specific tasks you think about when we look at organizations inside of us, inside of our organization. Part of the training had incorporated is you look at the functional first. Remove all the bodies, just think about the functions that need to be executed, think about the KPIs and the accountability, and then you start assigning the right person for the right role within those functions and understanding that each leader can only manage roughly four or five people effectively. So, we've definitely have had an emphasis and a focus on people, processes and accountability in KPIs inside of our organization. And that's really has led us really to take it from 30 to 90 million. And then we're putting more processes in, more what we call our third and fourth layer of employees inside the organization for us to really take that growth from the 90 to the 120, hopefully from 120 and beyond. Chris: That's great. So totally agree process and people, especially people, are the most important right. You can't no chance of achieving that kind of growth without good people. So what are you doing? And I don't know, how's your employee head count grown when you were at the six and even maybe the 30 to now? How many people are we talking about? Mark: Yeah, so back when we were at six we had probably eight, nine people total. Today we're at 85. So definitely like 12x growth from where we started off. The good thing is we've hired a significant amount of people with experience, a wealth of experience inside of the industry. So that really cuts down on the learning curve. And then the next piece is giving people the distance and direction where we're trying to go, and give them the guide rails. We'll let them figure it out. The thing I try to say internally is if I had to tell you how to do your job, then one of us is not doing their job effectively. So my goal is to hire people who understand and aren't afraid to fail. Put them inside of a structure, give them the distance and the direction of the resources that they need to try to accomplish a task and hopefully, get out the way and try to remove boulders when necessary. That's been kind of our leadership philosophy inside the organization and we think we empower our employees to actually accomplish a task that we put in front of them and hopefully we can celebrate at the end of the year for them achieving it. Most of the times nine times out of ten they actually outperform. So we think if we set up the right structure, giving them the right resources to help, them and then giving them the proper distance and direction and get out of the way. usually that's an effective way If you hire the right people, for them to be effective in their jobs. Chris: I like that. So, going with the people theme, you got to get them in the right seat, give them direction. What are you doing there at Direct Digital to foster a culture and so that people want to stay? Let's talk a little bit about that. Mark: Yeah, the culture that we really try to foster is one based on integrity. So if you're going to say something, follow up and do it. If you don't do it, take account of it before it. That's number one we try to foster that. We also foster service to each other, and that's the biggest one. My job as a leader is really to be of service to the employees, so take it serious to try to provide service to them and getting them what they need in order for them to execute effectively, and so we try to instill that inside of our leadership team and view it as it's not you doing what I say. It's about you enrolling in what we're trying to accomplish, and then let me help you get there. And so, even though we give big goals to our employees, we feel like it's all of our jobs to own that goal. And so I'm right there making phone calls. I still go on sale pitches. Last night, I had a client dinner we're still out here boots on the ground and if I'm not the number one salesperson trying to help generate sales and leads for the team, then I feel like I'm not doing my job. So that's kind of how we think about it. And when we try to hire employees, the word we termed as we want strategic doers. I like that. Yeah, we don't. We, you know, we're very deliberate that, especially in the growth phase that we're in, I need a strategic doer, someone who can be strategic but someone who doesn't mind rolling up their sleeves and getting dirty and running a report or making a sales call or generating leads. We need everybody doing it and then if you do effective job, then hire more resources underneath it. You can start moving into the strategic role. Yeah, Every employee starts off that way. We think it's a bit of an effective way for us to grow. Chris: Kind of that mindset of do what it takes to get the job done. Yep, well, it sounds like you know a lot of collaboration to kind of a team, teamwork, team, teammate mentality. Yeah, but you talked about you know just your hiring process, anything that you guys were doing there. Do you think they're somewhat innovative in how you go about the hiring process to make sure you're getting the right people? And maybe any challenges you faced in the last few years, given the environment and the economy? Mark: Yeah, when we come to the hiring, what we adopt as our philosophy is everybody touches them. So if the team is going to interview, if the person is going to be working on team, everybody on team has a say. Everybody on team has veto authority. And then the one thing I try to remind the leaders is the problem is going to be the problem. So if one person identifies a weakness, another person identifies a weakness, then that's probably the weakness in that person and it's not going to change. So then you have to ask yourself the tougher question Is that weakness detrimental in this role, or is that something that can be covered up or managed? And so that philosophy has been very instrumental in us being effective and we've been very. When we have our debriefs after we interview someone, everyone comes together. One person feels like I don't think they're going to be a good fit or I don't feel comfortable working with them. Then that's a no across the board. So very rarely have we made a decision that the collective wasn't comfortable with that person coming into the organization. Maybe it's my old fraternal approach to things, pledging a fraternity, and my business partner he actually played football at UT, but feel like a team and a collaborative approach is always the best way to try to find the best candidates and make sure you can protect the culture of the organization. Chris: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. I think that you've got that cohesiveness. You just can't put a price on it. And one person you hear it a lot in sports right, but a bad apple in the locker room or can destroy a good team, or quite the opposite. Maybe not a group of the best stars, but they get along. They can play above their natural ability. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Chris: And. Mark: I love that yeah. Chris: So let's talk about a setback that maybe you've encountered in the last since starting at the company. Explain, maybe a setback you've encountered, what you did to overcome that, maybe what the learning was and how it's made you or the company better. Yeah, absolutely. Mark: You know, in moving and growing this fast, sometimes you miss processes and you know the way that we view it. One person didn't miss a process. We all missed the process. So for us you know, we've done that before where you know you have might be a process set up to protect the organization and you missed it. Sometimes you got to go in and everybody has to rally around and say, okay, guys, let's figure out what happened. There's no fault to be assigned, but really what it is. Let's figure out where did the process break down and we're all collectively accountable. So, that's really the approach we've taken, what I think it actually helped us. It actually helped us Really identify are there any other holes that we have in the organization we need to plug up? You know, you know what you know, but you don't know what you don't need. You don't always know what you don't know Right, and so it's that piece that, unfortunately, usually errors get pointed out and that's the correction that you have to go in place. But we try to take an attitude of it's no one's fault, it's all of our problem, let's all own it, let's take accountability for it, let's fix it. Chris: I'd have to believe that helps foster that it's okay to fail type of mentality you talked about earlier. Right, that if everyone's kind of you feel like everyone, that's your coworkers are in it with you, then you're more likely to take that risk, knowing that failure is not going to point fingers at you as a result. Mark: Absolutely, and that usually usually helps, because if everyone's in there with you together, then you're okay. You know you got coverage. Chris: Yeah. Mark: So that's the best benefit that you have. Chris: Switching subjects a little bit, let's just when you think about what you guys are doing and both sides of your business, anything kind of innovative that you all employed, that you think has really helped the trajectory of the company and this growth you've seen. Mark: Yeah, I would say a couple things. One, we bifurcated our sales groups, so we have lead generation and then we have our sales closers. That has been instrumental. Let the hunters be the hunters, let the farmers be the farmers and let them both work collectively together. That has been instrumental to help us grow. Specifically on our buy side business, we've been growing solid 10-20% year over year. That's a tougher business to grow but the level of growth that we've been able to see has been very effective for us. Very proud of what we've been able to accomplish on that piece On the sell side of our business, which has been growing 100-200% year over year we've been able to really foster an environment where a lot of companies will go in and try to get the big whale. We play a lot of small ball inside of the game, so a lot of fruit what I call was low hanging fruit had gotten left by our competitors. We called, we made calls, not to the highest level person, to the lowest level person, told them to test out our platform and, sure enough, we were able to grow that business that way. Our business leader was very innovative on that approach, calling what we call fingers on keyboards those are the decision makers, the day-to-day decision makers to get them to try out our platform and through those efforts we were able to grow effectively. So sometimes, especially when talking to other entrepreneurs, sometimes look for the slow hanging fruit. Don't try to hit the home run, try to hit the single. The single will get you on base and that gets you actually in the game. That's kind of the strategy we've taken. Chris: I think that's great advice for some of our listeners out there that maybe trying to grow their company they just started is. You know, you don't always have to hit the home run of the Grand Slam right, you can start small and let that momentum build. What about AI? How do you see AI playing into your business model and what changes do you think are going to be coming down your path where you may need to make some adjustments? Mark: Yeah, no good question. When it comes to AI, I think what you're going to start saying is it's definitely been around for some time, or some level of machine learning has been around for some time. We think of it in two different counts. We think of behind the house and then in front of the house. Behind the house, that's the stuff that you really don't see, but that's really inside of the processes. That's stuff that we're taking advantage of right now. We're taking advantage of a lot of different algorithms. We're incorporating AI into different pieces of it. You won't be able to see it, touch it, feel it, but it's actually making our systems run much more, our technology run much more efficiently. On the back end, that, I think, has been around for a while and we're definitely in that space and moving more advantageously in that space. Behind the house. In front of the house is where I think all the excitement is actually coming with AI. The fact that you can do words with image imagery, natural language, learning, things of that nature I think we're going to start seeing in the next two years is a personalization of ads. Right now, you do a lot of ads. You might come up with 16, 17, 20 different recipes, trying to hit different segments. I think you're going to see a lot more personalization. On the data side, we have a significant amount of personalization of understanding what people like, what they dislike, their behavioral, demographic, psychographics all that information is already there. Now you're going to start seeing the creative reflect that, because creating new recipes of ads is going to be a lot easier leveraging AI technology than when you don't have AI technology. You have a human who has to replicate 20 different ads of the same idea. I think that's really the next evolution that you're going to see. I think that's going to be the exciting part coming to our space in probably the next two years. Chris: Wow, that'll be before you know it. Mark: Yeah, it'll probably be here sooner than later. Chris: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about leadership. How would you describe your leadership style? Mark: I think it's more of a. As I said before, I try to serve all of my team members. On the personal, we all think of more of it as a collaborative approach. We think of each other as a work family. We try to foster that type of environment of a work family. If you go to our office space, there are offices, but the main area, about 3,000 square feet, looks like a house. It looks like a kitchen, has a TV, has couches. We try to foster a work family environment. We want kids up there. We ask employees bring your kids. We have X-pots for them to play. It needs to be a collaborative approach because we spend probably more time at work than we do at home. Chris: Yeah, no question, right, so you might as well enjoy it while you're there. Mark: The other way that I would say is my leadership style is I try to really believe in trying to be a servant leader, so every problem is my problem. If my team has a problem, it's my problem. I try to own it. I try to help people solve through it and work with them and try to hold them accountable for the result. But no one's held accountable on their own. We're all accountable, so everyone pitches in to try to help out. So that's what we try to do with the environment, that we try to foster Type of leadership style that we have. My team probably would say I get into the weeds a little too much. Sometimes you can't help it right. Chris: Yeah, but I enjoy getting started. I get that. I get that there's some value, as long as you can regulate it to your team, seeing you willing to get in and get dirty get your fingernails dirty from time to time, right, and they're like, okay, you are in this with us, yeah, let's talk about. So. You've got your co-founder, keith Smith. How do the two of you manage the leadership roles in the company to be aligned and kind of maybe not contradict one another or step on each other's toes? Mark: Yeah, so the way we operate Function is we both bring two different experiences and we actually did bring two different personalities to the equation my business partner, keith. He's definitely more on the finance side. So when it comes to the finance, when it comes to the administrator, when it comes to the legal, he owns that, that's, he takes the leadership piece on that and I'm more than happy to step out of the way. All those pieces we got to do refies. We're going through the IPO process. He definitely took the lead on how to get that whole structure and organizing. Yeah, that expertise and experience for that. Chris: When it comes to the operational side. Mark: that's the piece that I bring more of my leadership style to, and so we meet in the middle. So when those two come together we meet in the middle. So it's really kind of clear lines in how we are structured. When it comes to investors, he takes the lead on talking to investors and stuff like that. If they need to hear from the operator, then I step in and have those kind of conversations. Chris: But that's pretty much how we structure the organization and it works well that way, so clearly delineated roles and responsibilities, and then everyone in the organization understands that as well, how it shapes up. Mark: Yeah, and then personality wise we make a good match, because I'm probably more of the passionate one, he's probably more of the sub dude one, so we meet in the middle that way. Chris: Okay, yeah, that sounds like a great team. The results speak for itself. What about mentors? Any mentors you've had along the way? That kind of help get you to where you are, shape your leadership philosophies, your work ethic, etc. Mark: Oh, absolutely, I had a thousand. You know a lot of them Some of them have been independent entrepreneurs. I call them my own personal board of directors. Reach out to a lot of them one-on-one to have conversations with them and get feedback and thought. Some of my mentors and leaders actually have joined the board, okay, and they're on our board of directors, and so definitely get a lot of leadership and good guidance from our board of directors, very happy with what they provide and the expertise that they deliver. And then they definitely help shape the organization and also give me and challenge me to think through different either opportunities or also different risks that are out there. So definitely got the board, got my independent individual board of directors as well. Of friends that I actually call on that I've known for 20 plus years. Some are in the industry, some are outside the industry, but they haven't been shaped by all of them. Chris: Let's talk a little bit about that. You know the board and board composition, etc. When did you and Keith decide to form a board of directors? Was it right out of the start or was it as the company was evolving and growing? Mark: Yeah, so we started our when we were from 2018 to 2022, we were actually privately held, so we're probably I'll do as myself, keith and we had a third business partner who we ended up buying out, so we made up the constitute the board and, trust me, it was 100 times easier as a private company yeah. Because you look at Keith and I look at him and say what do you want to do? Chris: Yeah, Right, which is typically how the small, privately held entrepreneur starts out. Right Exactly. Mark: Yeah, and just kind of kind of keeping moving. When we ended up deciding to go public, we had to actually form a public board, and so then we had to start recruiting people with actually board experience and expertise and you know some level of ground toss and all that. And that's when you know, we had to start tapping into our own connections, our own network. Our lead director we worked at Deloitte. We both worked at Deloitte, didn't know each other at that time but we knew mutual people and mutual friends and so we recruited her to come on the board as our lead director. She's been absolutely phenomenal. But really thought through, what did we need to help us grow to the next level? So we knew we needed technologists. We knew we needed someone with finance background and a strong experience and accounting around audit committee. Then we knew we needed someone with industry expertise, specifically from the agency side. So we're very strategic about who we brought on the board, why we brought them on the board and what value we were really looking to get in expertise. So you know, my advice on performing a board is really to think through. Don't think about where you are today, but really think about where you're trying to go tomorrow and try to bring the people who have that experience and expertise to come on the board. Now I will say for us to recruit one of those members, best place to go is your law firm and your accounting firm. They know good people. They know people they probably worked with on other boards. My first piece of advice go to your attorneys and go to your accountants and see if they know of anyone who might be a good board member. That's how we started our recommendation process, yeah. Chris: And I think you're right in picking those disciplines that you have again as a mentor or resource to bounce ideas off of, get direction from. Yeah, and you don't have to be a public company, a privately held company trying to grow can that entrepreneur can benefit from those resources. Mark: Absolutely Firmly believe that and then build the right culture even inside the board. You want to collaborate on board who can think through problems collectively and come to a solution. Chris: Yeah, what about? You know we all, we all try to continue to learn and grow. What are some of the things you do to kind of keep yourself sharp, to keep learning, to be that servant leader? You know the type of person that you want to emulate in the company. Mark: Yeah, a couple things. One definitely mentorship. So you know, one of the pieces of advice I give is get into a CEO group, because everybody has problems. Chris: Right, then you can learn from other people's problems before they become yours. Mark: Before they become yours. You're like, let me take note of that problem. That's number one. But I would also say you know I read a lot. Yeah, every morning I'm reading, every afternoon I'm reading, I subscribe to God knows how many publications. So you really try to absorb information and I have to say you have to get out of the ivory tower and get out on the street. Yeah, I'm a firm believer in, you know, hearing kind of the qualitative information. To me, if it's in the news, it's already too late. It's really the qualitative information that you get from networks that really kind of give you insight on where the trends are going. So I always try to keep my ear to the street. By getting out and meeting with people and taking people to watch, I get a lot of good information that way. Chris: These are great pieces of advice as far as how to kind of stay in tune with things, and I think you're right. These days there's some great publications, you know I think Bloomberg does since two meals a day, one in the morning, one in the evening, and all that where news is coming at you fast. Mark: It's coming at you and you gotta be on it every day, For sure You're absolutely right. Chris: Before we change subjects, one or two things that you would say to some of our listeners that are trying to start, or maybe just start, a new company about here. If you're about to embark on this journey to pursue a passion on your own or with a couple partners, here are one or two things that I think you should absolutely do or consider doing, as you kind of embark on that wisdom there. Mark: You know, the one piece of advice I would give is be all in Like entrepreneurship. I will just say two things. One, it's not for the faint of heart, but you gotta be all in. And so I think there is something about failure and success. The risk of failure will drive you to success. But if you kinda have one foot in and I'm still doing my job, but I wanna do this then you're not wanting to be an entrepreneur. You either gotta be all in, ready to risk it all, or you don't. That's probably the one piece of advice I would give Pretty much everyone. And if you're not in the position to get yourself in the position to and then go all in, Don't think you can do it half in, half out. It won't work. Chris: That's great, great advice actually, and very true. It's funny that's a pretty consistent theme of the guest I've had. Is that all in mentality? And the second is it's not for the faint of heart. Mark: Right. Chris: So just know there's gonna be tough times and you just gotta muscle through it. So let's go a little bit on the personal side. What was your first job? Mark: First job in high school was a sacker at Randalls. I used to sack groceries when I turned 16, over off of Jones Road and, yeah, you made good money. If I came home with $40 after a cycle, I was pretty happy. Chris: Yeah, and in the hot Texas heat. Oh absolutely, yeah, okay, so your native Texan. I always ask all my guests you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Mark: Barbecue hands down Gavils barbecue. Chris: Oh, okay, there we go, no hesitation, and applaud for Gatlins. I love it. It's pretty good stuff. They've gotten a lot more competition now, but Gavils gonna win, yeah. So let me ask you this so if you could take a 30 day sabbatical not that you would, if you could where would you go? What would you do? Mark: If I could take a 30 day sabbatical I would probably. You know, I really wouldn't mind going to Asheville, north Carolina, getting out in the mountains and enjoy some of that, especially in the fall I'd be out there all day Just out in the woods and hanging out. Chris: It's a beautiful area. Oh God, it's gorgeous. Yeah, it's got a sketch right out there. Well, mark, I wanna thank you again for coming on. Congratulations to you and Keith on what you've built and are continuing to build. Love hearing your story and the insights you shared. Mark: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Pleasure being here. I appreciate your time and thank you for having us. Special Guest: Mark Walker.

How does the devaluating of our Dollar correlate with the Mark of the Beast? Pastor Stan answers this important question today! We take a look at implants that reads your hand as you scan it to pay, and what the Bible teaches us what to avoid! Do not take that Mark of the Beast! 00:00 - Food Processing Plant Burned Down 04:48 - CBDC Currency Implants under Skin 08:33 - Implant Pay with Your Hand 14:07 - Five things to Avoid 15:25 - Shane Warren Prophecy 20:59 - Oil in Israel & Med Beds 27:59 - Grid Down 29:39 - Joseph’s Kitchen 31:04 - Solar Surge

How does the devaluating of our Dollar correlate with the Mark of the Beast? Pastor Stan answers this important question today! We take a look at implants that reads your hand as you scan it to pay, and what the Bible teaches us what to avoid! Do not take that Mark of the Beast! 00:00 - Food Processing Plant Burned Down 04:48 - CBDC Currency Implants under Skin 08:33 - Implant Pay with Your Hand 14:07 - Five things to Avoid 15:25 - Shane Warren Prophecy 20:59 - Oil in Israel & Med Beds 27:59 - Grid Down 29:39 - Joseph’s Kitchen 31:04 - Solar Surge

How does the devaluating of our Dollar correlate with the Mark of the Beast? Pastor Stan answers this important question today! We take a look at implants that reads your hand as you scan it to pay, and what the Bible teaches us what to avoid! Do not take that Mark of the Beast! 00:00 - Food Processing Plant Burned Down 04:48 - CBDC Currency Implants under Skin 08:33 - Implant Pay with Your Hand 14:07 - Five things to Avoid 15:25 - Shane Warren Prophecy 20:59 - Oil in Israel & Med Beds 27:59 - Grid Down 29:39 - Joseph’s Kitchen 31:04 - Solar Surge

How does the devaluating of our Dollar correlate with the Mark of the Beast? Pastor Stan answers this important question today! We take a look at implants that reads your hand as you scan it to pay, and what the Bible teaches us what to avoid! Do not take that Mark of the Beast! 00:00 - Food Processing Plant Burned Down 04:48 - CBDC Currency Implants under Skin 08:33 - Implant Pay with Your Hand 14:07 - Five things to Avoid 15:25 - Shane Warren Prophecy 20:59 - Oil in Israel & Med Beds 27:59 - Grid Down 29:39 - Joseph’s Kitchen 31:04 - Solar Surge

We aren't able to record a new episode this week, so here is a great interview we did with Michael H. of the Atheopagan Society Council. See you next week! S3E41 TRANSCRIPT:   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm Mark, one of your hosts. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we have a really exciting episode. We have an interview with a member of the Atheopagan Society Council, Michael, who is joining us today, and is gonna tell us about his journey and what this community means to him and his vision for the future and all kinds of cool stuff. So welcome. Michael: Well, thank you very much for having me. Mark: I'm delighted to have you here, Yucca: Thanks for coming on. Michael: Yeah, no, I'm excited. Yucca: Yeah. So why don't we start with so who are you? Right? What's, what's your journey been to get here? Michael: Gosh. Well, I kind of have to start at the very beginning. So my name's Michael and you know, I've, I start, sometimes I go by Mícheál, which is my Irish, the Irish version of my name. And that's something I've been using more as I've been involved in the Pagan community. My parents are both Irish and. They moved to the United States in their early eighties cuz my dad got a green card working over there Mark: Hmm. Michael: and I was born in America. And then they decided they want to move back to Ireland then in 1991. So already I had this kind of dissected identity. Was I American or was I Irish? I never really lost my American accent. When I, when I moved to Ireland my sister who was born in Ireland, she actually has a slight American accent just from living with me. So she never people always ask her, are you, are you American? And she's like, I've never lived there. So it's funny that it's kind of stuck with her, but I moved to Ireland and I suddenly was kind of got this culture shock at the age of five and moving to this new country. And my mother has a very large family, so she has like, two, two brothers and seven sisters, and then I've got like 30 cousins. So , it was a big, a big change from AmeriCorps. It was just the three of us. Moving back to Ireland and. It was a very, you know, Ireland, you know, is, would've been considered a very Catholic country, and it's been kind of secularizing since the nineties up until now. But back then it was still quite Catholic. Like homosexuality was only decriminalized in 1992 and divorce was only made legal in 1995. So, I guess the first kind of sense of, of what I meant to be Irish back then was, You know, you learned Irish in school, you learned to speak Irish in school, and this was very it wasn't taught very well, I would say, and I think most Irish people would agree with that. It's kind of taught like almost like Latin or something as a dead language rather than as a living language. So you're spending time learning all this grammar. And you don't kind of develop that love of it that I think you should. I did go to like Irish summer camp in the Gaeltacht . The Gaeltacht  is the Irish speaking area of Ireland, and I kind of became aware of my Irishness, you know, just through being part of all this and also. I would've introduced myself as American when I was little but people didn't really like that. It was kind of a, like a weird thing to do. So my mom eventually told me, maybe you should just stop paying that. And so throughout my I, you know, as I mentioned, it was a very Catholic country. And when I was in the Gaeltacht in Irish summer camp one of the kids said they were atheist. And I was like, what does that mean? I'm like, I don't believe in God. And I was, and in my head I was like, I didn't know you could do that, I didn't know that was an option. . So I kind of thought about it for a while. I became, we started studying the Reformation in school when I was about 14. And then I learned that Catholics believed in transubstantiation and nobody had really mentioned that before. They didn't really teach the catechism very well, I guess. I'd done my communion and my confirmation, but nobody ever mentioned that. We literally believed that the, the body and blood, you know, was that the bread and water? Oh, sorry. The bread and wine actually became literally, And the body. And I thought that was a very strange thing, that that was a literal thing. It wasn't just symbolic. And then we also studied Calvinism and all that stuff. And I was like, then I started to read the Bible and I was like, then it fun, it finally just dawned on me that I didn't believe any of this, and it was kind of liberating. But it was kind of a way of being d. In a very homogenous society too. You could be a bit of a rebel. So I think I was one of those annoying teenagers who was always questioning everybody and having, trying to have debates with everybody about religion and they didn't enjoy that . And so I went through school and I just remember hating studying the Irish language until eventually when I left school. On the last day, I actually took all my. My Irish textbooks and burnt them and I feel I . Yeah. I mean I feel so much guilt and regret about that and I think about that how important it's to me now and that, that was a real shame that, but I didn't, partially I didn't put the work in, but also I just think the structure. Was not there. I mean so many Irish people come out of outta school not really know, knowing how to speak the language, you know, and I think it is an effective col colonization as well, where, you know, you consider English is a useful language and learning French or Spanish, that's a useful thing, but there's no use for Irish in people's minds, which is a, and I find that a real shame and I. could go back and change that. In university I studied anthropology and history because I was very interested in religion. All throughout my teenage years, I was obsessed with learning about world religions, you know, there was a world religion class in, in secondary school. I didn't get into it, but I begged the teacher to allow me to. Into it because I was so interested in the topic. And he was like, fine, fine. And he kind of thought he'd humor me in one class one day and he was like, well, Michael, maybe you could talk about satanism. That's the topic for today. And I was like, well, let's start with Al Crowley. And he was like, okay, maybe he actually knows what he is talking about So, I went, I. I went to the university sorry, national University of Ireland, Minuth Campus. And it's funny because that used to be known as so it's actually, it's two campuses. They're St. Patrick's college, which is like a, a seminary for priests. And there's the I, which is like the secular version, and they're both, but they both share the same compass. So it's funny, it used to be the, the biggest seminary in Europe. They call it the priest factory cuz they pumped out so many priests that sent, sent them all over the world. And it's when you go out and you walk down the corridors, you see all the graduating classes. So you go back to 1950 and you see a graduating class of like a hundred priests. And every year as you're going down the corridor, it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Until I think the year I graduated, there was like two people graduating as priests. Yeah. So that was, that was a, I decided to study history and anthropology at n Y Minuth and one of the books that I read. Was kind of a gateway into thinking about land and language, which are two things that are really important to me in my, when I think about Paganism. It's a book called wisdom Sits in Places by Keith Bato, bass by Keith Bassell, and. I'm just gonna read a little bit here from the book because he was an anthropologist working with the Apache, the Western Apache, to try and remap the land using the Native Apache words rather than the, the English words. So trying to make a native map and working with Apache people to find all the true, the true names of all these. so this is the quote, but already on only our second day in the country together a problem had problem had come up for the third time in as many tries. I have mispronounced the Apache name of the boggy swale before us. And Charles, who is weary of repeating it, has a guarded look in his eyes after watching the name for a fourth. I acknowledged defeat and attempted to apologize for my flawed linguistic performance. I'm sorry, Charles. I can't get it. I'll work on it later. It's in the machine. It doesn't matter. It matters. Charles says softly to me in English, and then turning to speak to Morley. He addresses him in Western Apache, is what he said. What he's doing isn't right. It's not good. He seems to be in a. Why is he in a hurry? It's disrespectful. Our ancestors made this name. They made it just as it is. They made it for a reason. They spoke it first a long time ago. He's repeating the speech of our ancestors. He doesn't know that. Tell him he's repeating the speech of our ancestors. And I'm gonna just there's another section here, a little, a few pages. But then unexpectedly in one of those courteous turnabouts that Apache people employ to assuage embarrassment in salvage damaged feelings, Charles himself comes to the rescue with a quick corroborative grin. He announces he is missing several teeth and that my problem with the place name may be attributable to his lack of dental equipment. Sometimes he says he is hard to underst. His nephew, Jason, recently told him that, and he knows he tends to speak softly. Maybe the combination of too few teeth and two little volume accounts for my failing. Short morally, on the other hand, is not so encumbered though shy. Two, a tooth or two. He retains the good ones for talking and because he's not afraid to speak up, except as everyone knows in the presence of gar women no one has trouble hearing what he. Maybe if Morley repeated the place name again slowly and with ample force, I would get it right. It's worth a try, cousin. And then he, I'm just gonna skip forward a bit and he successfully pronounces the name, which translates as water Lies with mud in an open container. Relieved and pleased. I pronounce the name slowly. Then I, then a bit more rapidly and again, as it might be spoken. In normal conversation, Charles listens and nods his head in. . Yes. He says in Apache, that is how our ancestors made it a long time ago, just as it is to name this place. Mm-hmm. So this became important to me when thinking about the Irish language because something similar happened in Ireland in the you know, we have all our native Irish place. But in the 1820s the British Army's Ordinance survey came and decided they were gonna make these names pro pronounceable to English ears. And so they kind of tore up the native pronunciation and kind of push an English pronunciation on top. So you have these very strange English Anglo size versions of Irish Place names Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Soin in is is probably better known in English as dingle, but doesn't really have anything to do with the Irish. And there are plenty of, there are so many examples of this and I think when you're trying to learn about a landscape in your relation to a ship, to a landscape, it is important to know the native place. It's something that I think about a lot and I try to learn. One of my favorite writers is named Tim Robinson, and he's well he died in 2020. But I had the opportunity to meet him in 2009 and he was an English cartographer. But he moved to the west of Ireland, to the Iron Islands and also to Kamara. So he kind of moved between those two places. He lived there for more than 30 years, and what he actually did was he went out and mapped the landscape and talked to local people, and he was able to find some of the place names that had been lost over the years that weren't on the official maps, and he was able to help recreate a Gaelic map of those areas. I think that's a really kind of religious or spiritual activity to go out onto the land and walk it. And to name it and to name it correctly. And I think that's what I think my pagan path is in a way. It's to go and walk the land and learn it, what to call it. Cause I think language is the most important tool we have as pagans. Mark: Hmm. Michael: So those are, that's kind of when I started to think about this stuff. I've always been interested in folk. It was actually funny. There was, it started with a video game one of the legend of Zelda video games called Major's Mask Mark: Hmm. Yucca: Yep. Michael: in, in the game, they actually have like a mask festival and they dis they discuss the the history of the festival. Anna was just like, wow, I didn't, I ended up making masks with my sister and we kind of pretended to. A little mask festival of our own Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: that you're, you're familiar with that? Yucca? Yucca: Yes. Yeah, I played a lot of it. Michael: Yeah. So, but I guess I really started to think about folklore when when I watched the Wickerman as um, as a teenager. I was probably at 16 when I watched it, and it kind of opened my eyes completely. And we've talked a lot about this in the group. And I. It's watched as a horror movie in a way, but I think I really got into the, the paganism idea of, of paganism as a teenager because of watching the Wickman and just the symbolism and the pageantry. And I also just like the idea. These island people turning on the state in the form of, of the policeman. So that's kind of been something I've that I've really enjoyed over the years, watching that every every May as part of my, my, my annual ritual so, you know, after university, I, I moved to South Korea to teach English, and, but at the same time I was quite into Buddhism. I had been practicing some Zen Buddhism from about the age of 18, and, but not like, more as just a practice rather than believing in any of it. Not believing in reincarnation or anything like that. I just found the ritual of it very beautiful. And I ended up going and doing a temple stay in a, in a place at, at a temple. Up in the mountains and it was very beautiful and really amazing. You know, something you'd see in a movie because the monk, the head monk actually brought us out into a bamboo grove and we sat there meditating just with all surrounded by bamboo. And it was waving in the wind and it felt like a correction, tiger Hidden dragon or something like that. And one of the powerful events that happened on that trip. Doing the Buddhist meal ceremony where we ate in in the style of a Buddhist monk. And the idea is that you do not leave any food behind. After you're, after you're finished eating, you've, you eat all the food, and then when you wash the bowls and they kind of put the communal water back into the, the, the waste bowl, there should be no no bit of food, nothing. It should just be clean water. That comes out of, after everybody finishes washing all their bowls. So we followed all the steps to do that and, you know, some people really, really weren't into it. They didn't wanna do the work of, of being extremely thorough. And there were a few rice pieces of rice in the water at the end and the head monk said to us oh, that will now get, you're, you're gonna cause pain to the hungry to ghost. Because the hungry goats ghosts have holes in their throats, and when we pour the water outside for the hungry ghosts, the rice particles are gonna get stuck in their throats. And a lot of people were like, what? What are you talking about Mark: Hmm. Michael: But I thought that was beautiful because it doesn't, not, you don't have to. It's a story that has a purpose, and that's why, you know, It made me think about the superstitions that we have. And I don't know if I like superstition like these, calling it that. Cause I think a lot of these things have purpose and you have to look for the purpose behind them. And the purpose of that story of the honky go story, maybe for him it is about not causing harm to these, these spirits, but it's also about not wasting food. And I think it, it has more power and more meaning. And you remember. More thoroughly when you have a story like that to back up this, this practice. So I think it kind of made me rethink a lot about the kind of folkloric things that I, in my, in the Irish tradition and that, you know, I think about things like fairy forts, which are, you know, the, these are the archeological sites that you find around Ireland. Like, I think there's like 60,000 left around the country. These, these circular. Homesteads that made a stone or, or saw, or saw that you find all over the country and people don't disturb them because they're afraid they'll get fair, bad luck. The, if you, if you disturb the, the fair fort the ferry's gonna come after you , or if you could, or if you cut down a tree, a lone tree. Lone trees that grow in the middle of fields that don't have a, a woodland beside them, just singular trees. These are known as fairy trees and it's bad luck to cut them down. But I feel like these folk beliefs help preserve the past as well, because, you know, farmers who don't have this belief, they don't have any problem tearing down fray, forts and that kind of thing. They just see it as a, something in the way of them farming, especially in the kind of age of industrial agriculture. Yeah. So it just made, that was when I started to think about how important it is to keep folk belief alive. And I've really, and I really started to study Irish folk belief after that point. And I lived in South Korea as I mentioned. I met my wife there, she's from Iowa and she was also teaching in, in South Korea, and we moved to Vietnam after that. And we lived there for a couple of years, and I might come back to that later. But fast forwarding, we moved to Iowa then in 2013, and I'm teaching a course in Irish. At a local community college, but I always start with this poem by Shama Heini Boland. And I just wanted to read two extracts from it. So the first stands out is we have no prairies to slice a big sun at evening everywhere. The eye concedes to encroaching. And then moving downwards. Our pioneers keep striking inwards and downwards. Every layer they strip, they, every layer they strip seems camped on before. So I, I started with that initially, kind of trying to, as, it was almost like a gateway for my students to kind of look at. Look at Iowa with its historic prairies, which don't really exist anymore. It's all farmland. There's very little prairie land left. I think maybe 2% of the state is prairie. But that idea, that idea of our pioneers strike downwards, and I've been thinking about that a lot as well, that that's kind of a, a colonial look at the land because this land, the American land has is just as camped. As Ireland, and I've been kind of experiencing that more and more. I have a friend who's an archeologist here and just hearing them talk about the kinds of fines that they have. You know, we lived in a town where there was a Native American fishing weir was a couple of hundred years old. It you could kind of see the remains, but it mostly washed away by the time we had. But I did see an old postcard of it from the seventies, and you could see it very clearly. And so just make, and then we always it's become a ritual every every autumn, we go up to northeast Iowa to these, to these effigy mounds, which are some Native American mounds up there on a bluff, just overlooking the miss. Mark: Hmm. Michael: And that's really amazing to look at that and experience and experience that. And you know, I'd love to go back, unfortunately, Shamus, he died more than 10 years ago now, but I'd love to go back and ask him if he would consider rewriting that line, you know, because this land is just as a count on Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: and I'm trying to, trying to make sense of that and what it means. As an Irish person living in America, Yucca: Mm. Michael: Cuz we, Irish people are victims of col colonialism, Mark: Hmm. Michael: Irish people, when they moved to America, they just became white as well and had the same colonial attitudes as everybody. And I'm trying to kind of, but you know, there's, there's, there's kind of stories of reciprocation as well. Where during the famine, the Irish famine the, I think, I believe it was the Chota Nation sent Emin relief to the AR to Ireland. Even though they didn't have much themselves, they still saw this. People in need across the water and they sent money to help. And, you know, there's that connection between the Chta nation and the Irish has continued to this day. But I am just trying to figure out what it means to be an Irish person and a pagan living in this country. And that's kind of where I, where I am right now. But to get back to how I got into Ethiopia, paganism I mentioned earlier that I was really into the Wickerman and I found this group called Folk folk Horror Revival on Facebook. And somebody one day mentioned that there was this group called Atheopagan. And so I decided to join and I found a lot of like-minded people. And I've been kind of involved in the community for, for, I think that was maybe 2018. Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: And I've been involved in the community since then and maybe on a bigger, I've been much more involved since Covid started and we started doing our Saturday mixers. And I think I've made maybe 90% of those Mark: something Michael: and we've, yeah, and we've been doing that for the last three years and it's just been. It's a really amazing, it's one of the highlights of my week to spend time with with other people in that, in that hour and 45 minutes that we spend every Saturday. Mark: Mm. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: Yeah, I, I really agree with you. That's, I, it's a highlight of my week as well. Such warm, thoughtful people and so diverse and living in so many different places. It's yeah, it's just a really good thing to do on a Saturday morning for me. And. We'll probably get into this more a little bit later, but the idea of creating human connection and community building I know is really important to you and it's really important to me too. I think there have been other sort of naturalistic, pagan traditions that have been created by people, but they just kind of plunked them on the internet and let them sit. And to me it's. That would be fine if I were just gonna do this by myself. But when other people started saying, I like this, I want to do this too. To me that meant, well then we should all do it together. Right? Let's, let's build a community and support one another in doing this. And so the Saturday mixers, when we, when Covid started, I think. I mean, to be honest, COVID did some great things for the Ethiopia, pagan community. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: yeah. Kind of accidentally, but that's, that's Yucca: Well that's the silver linings, right? That's one of the things we, you know, life goes on. We have to find the, the, the benefits and the good things, even in the challenging times. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael: yeah. I think. I'm just thinking back to when we started. So it's kind of, we have maybe six or seven regulars who come to every meeting maybe. And then we have other people who join now and then, but I'm just trying to think back to the first meeting. I think we, that's when the idea of doing virtual ritual began as well in that first meeting. And we were trying to figure out how to do. Yucca: Was that was the first meeting before Covid or was it as a response to Covid? Mark: You know, honestly, I don't remember. I think it must have been in response to Covid because everybody was shut in and, you know, everybody was kind of starving for human contact. Michael: I think the first one may have been March or April. 2020, Yucca: Okay, so right there at the. Michael: Yeah, right at the beginning. Yeah. And I think, I remember in the first meeting we were talking about ritual ideas and I think the first suggestion I came up with was like I'd love to somebody do like a, describe what an atheopagan temple might look. Mark: Oh yeah. Michael: Yeah. And I left, and I think you were recording the meetings at that time, but we don't record 'em anymore, just so people can feel free to be themselves and not have a recorded recording of themselves out there, . But I know that, I think James who you interviewed recently he, he was listening to that one, I believe, and he came the next week and actually had prepared a guided meditation. Of what a pagan temple would be like to him. And it was a walk through nature. I think that was the first, our first online ritual together. Mark: Yeah, I remember that now. Yeah, and it's been, it's really been a journey trying to figure out how, how can you do these ritual things over a, a video conferencing platform. In a way that makes everybody feel like they're participating and engaged. Right. So that there's a, a transformation of consciousness. But I think we've done pretty well, to be honest. I mean, some of the rituals that we've done have been really quite moving. Michael: Yeah. And I think the ritual framework that you've worked at translates very well to. A Zoom conference as well. I dunno if maybe, if he wants to describe that, what the usual atheopagan ritual would look like. Mark: Sure. We've, we've talked about this before. The, the, the ritual structure that I proposed in my book is basically a, a five step process where the first is arrival, which is sort of, Transitioning into the ritual state of mind from the ordinary state of mind, and then the invocation of qualities that are a part that we'd like to be a part of the ritual with us, which is sort of the equivalent in Wicca or other pagan traditions of invoking spirits or gods or what have you, ancestors, what have you. And then the main working of the ritual, which varies depending on what the purpose of the ritual is. But it can be, well, we've done lots of different kinds of things. We've braided ribbons and then tied, not tied magical knots in them. We've made siles, we've we've done just lots of different kinds of things. And then gratitude expressions of gratitude. The things that we're grateful for. And then finally, benediction, which is sort of the closing of the ritual at a declaration that we're moving back into ordinary time. Yucca: So how does that look in, in a meeting, like a Zoom meeting In a digital format? Mark: Michael, you want to take that one or should I? Michael: So you know, you have maybe, I think usually when we have a ritual more people attend that and so we might have 12 people there and often Yucca: cameras on. Michael: Camera's on. Well, it's optional. Yeah. If you don't feel comfortable having your camera on, that's completely fine and you don't even have to speak. We do encourage people just to you know, leave a message in the chat so you can just listen in. You can engage as much or as little as you want. And you, you, so. We have all the people on in the conference, and maybe we'll try and get some more of the senses involved as well. So sometimes we'll like candles and everybody will have a candle in front of them. I do know for for some of our sound rituals. Mark, you've used two cameras where you, you aim one camera at maybe a focus, like what's one of the examples of that that you. Mark: Well we did that both at Sown and at Yu. So both the Halls ritual and the Yule ritual where I would create a focus or alter setup with thematic and symbolic things relating to the season. and then I would point, I would log into Zoom with my phone and point my phone at that. And then, and then I'd log in separately on my laptop for myself as a person, and then I could spotlight the focus so that it's kind of the centerpiece of what everybody experiences on their screen and sets the atmosphere. Michael: Yeah. So just a virtual focus that everybody can, everybody can virtually gather around. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah. And I think we've also used a Pinterest board in the past as well for people. I think it was at Sound again, we had that Pinterest board where people could put up notes about. Their ancestors or loved ones that they were That's correct, isn't it? Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Or pictures of people that had passed recently or. Yucca: mm. Michael: yeah. So yeah, there's a lot of digital space that you can use for this ritual. We also try not to involve too many props as well. Because we wanna make it as easy as possible for people of all abilities. And just if you don't have the space for something, for a large proper if you don't wanna make a lot of noise, you know, we're not gonna have you using chimes or things like that. So we try and make it as easy as possible. Sometimes we do invite you to bring some food to eat as well, because, you know, a lot of these are feasting rituals. So we maybe, if you feel comfortable bringing some refreshments, you might want to do. And just have a friendly meal with people online. For example, we're actually gonna start doing I'm gonna be leading full Moon meals every month on the, on the, so the first one's gonna be December 7th. And I'll post, post about that on Discord, and I think Mark will post about that in the Facebook group. Yeah. And so the idea is everybody just comes. Joins the Zoom meeting and everybody should have their meal. Whether you're, whether that's lunch or if you're in a different time zone, maybe there'll be dinner or maybe it's just a snack. And then we'll spend a minute just thinking about the providence of the food and then we'll eat us and maybe people can talk about the food that they're eating and what it means to. And I'm hoping to make that a monthly event that we meet every full moon to share a meal together Mark: That sounds. I, I, I really I have pagan guilt over how little I pay attention to the full moon. I'm, I'm always, I'm always aware of what phase the moon is in, but I, I don't do a lot in the way of observances of the phases of the moon. And so, I'm excited to have this added in to something that I can attend. Michael: Mm-hmm. . But yeah, as you can see from that format, it's very simple. And again, you, if, if people listening would like to attend as well, there's no obligation to keep your. Your camera on, there's no obligation to speak. You just, you can just listen in and just feel part of the, part of the community that way. Yucca: Mm-hmm. So in the mixers sometimes ritual, are there discussions or what else do the mixers. Michael: Usually the mixer is kind of a freeform thing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Maybe we'll have a topic sometimes, but usually people just come and do a check in and talk about how they're, how they're getting on that week and if there's anything they wanna discuss, we just open it up to that. Depending on the size of the turn, we may require some kind of etiquette stuff. So if there are a lot of people and we don't want people to. Shut it down or have spoken over. So we'll ask people to raise their hands if they wanna speak. That's, that really is only when there's a lot of people and, and often I, I know I'm somebody who likes to talk, so it's a, I think raising hands also gives people who are less confident, or, I'm sorry, not less confident, just not at, don't feel like interrupting. It gives them an opportu. To to have their say as well and be called on mm-hmm. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Mm. Mark: I think it's really good that we've implemented that. It, it's, it helps. Michael: Mm-hmm. I think one of the really cool rituals we had recently was for like the ATO Harvest, so that was when was that? That was in September or October. In September, yeah. Yeah. So. We were trying, I mean, usually it's, you could do some kind of harvest related and I think we've done that in the past. But I have a book called Celebrating Irish Festivals by Ruth Marshall. And this is my go-to book for, for, for ritual ideas. And this is, and I like to. Kind of some of the traditional holidays and maybe just steal from them. . So Michael Mass is is the holiday around that time in Ireland? It's a Christian holiday, but it's also it's a Yucca: were older. Michael: yeah, yeah, Yucca: Christians took for the older Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, it's about St. And he's known for slaying a dragon as just as St. George was known for slaying a dragon. But I thought, well, let's turn this on this head and let's celebrate our inner dragons. Let's bring our dragons to life. So it was the whole ritual was about dragons. And we actually drew Dragons, drew our inner dragons and shared them. Talked about what they. And kind of we were feeding our inner dragon so that they could warm us throughout the coming winter. Yucca: Hmm. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: as well as watching the home. Star Runner Strong Door, the Ator video, Michael: Oh yeah, Mark: which you, you have to do if you've got dragons as a theme. It's just too funny to avoid. Michael: That's an old flash cartoon from the early two thousands. That was pretty popular. Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah. Track toward the ator. Google it, and in fact, I did a, I did the hot chip challenge as part of that ritual as Mark: That's right. Yeah. Michael: where I ate a very, very hot tortilla chip on camera. And. It was it was painful, but I'm sure, I don't know if it entertained other people, but it was, it was fun Mark: Oh yeah. It was fun. Michael: So, yeah, they're like, I mean, these rituals aren't all, they're, they're fun and they're kind of silly and goofy and but I mean, I thought at the same time they're very meaningful because people really opened up in that one Mark: Yeah. Michael: and shared some really profe profound truth. That was one of my favorites actually, and I hope we do another, another dragon invoking ritual in the future. Mark: Maybe in the spring Michael: yeah. Mark: you do it at, at both of the equinoxes. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: so you've joined the Atheopagan Society Council, which is great. Thank you so much for your, your volunteering and your effort. What do you think about the future? How do you, how do you see where this community is going and what would you like to see? What's, what's your perspective on that? Michael: Yeah, so just before I discovered the Pagan Facebook group I had attended A local cups meeting. So that's the covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans. And so it was just a taro reading workshop and, you know, I was, I, I like kind of using these kind of rituals just for their beauty and, but not, for not, not seeing anything supernatural in them. I was, it was amazing to, to find a group that was interested in these kind of things too, but without the they weren't incredulous. So I guess what I'm hoping for is that as we, as we kind of find more people who are, are, are aligned with us, maybe we can have more in. Experiences. That was one of the great, the great highlights of, of last year was attending the Century retreat and meeting all, all these amazing people in real life and being able to spend time together in real life. And I hope that as we kind of, as the word gets out about this group, more and more of us can meet in person or as we are able to, Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: That's what I really hope for the future that you're finding your, your people that we are, we are being able to get these local groups together and then spend time on these important days of the year. And I believe the Chicago Afu Pagan group was able to do that not too long ago. And I know Mark, your local group meets quite regularly as well. Mark: We, we meet for the, for the eight holidays, for the eight Sabbath. So yeah, we're gonna get together on the 18th of December and burn a fire in the fire pit and do a, a ritual and enjoy food and drink with one another. And yeah, it's a, it's a really good feeling that that feeling of getting together is just You can't replace it with online connection, but online connection is still really good. So that's why, that's why we continue to do the mixers every Saturday. And Glen Gordon has also been organizing a mixer on Thursday evenings. Well evenings if you're in the Americas. And. Yeah, there's just, there's, there's a bunch of different opportunities to plug in and it's always great to see somebody new. Michael: Yeah, I think that would be another hope as well that, you know, if you've been on the fence about coming to a mixer I hope that what we've described today maybe entices you to come along. You know that there's no expectations and you can, you can share, you can just sit in the background and watch, or you can participate. There's no expectations and it's just a nice way to, to connect with people, so, Yucca: how would somebody join in? They find the, the link on the Facebook discord. Michael: that's right. Yeah. So I think, mark, you post it regularly on the Facebook group, and it's also posted on the disc. As well. So, and it's the same time every Saturday, so it's 12:15 PM Central for me, so, and that's like 1115 for you, mark, on the, Mark: No, it's 1115 for Yucca. Michael: Oh, okay. Mark: It's 10 15 for me. Michael: Okay. Okay. Yucca: one 15 for Eastern. Then Michael: one, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yucca: Hmm Mark: And. Michael: and it's always the same time, and I think we've, I think we've only missed one week, maybe in the last three years. Mark: Yeah, I think that's right. I wasn't available and I couldn't find somebody else to host or something like that, but yeah, it's been very consistent. And I see no reason to think it isn't gonna keep being consistent. But yeah, we, you know, we welcome new people. And if you're not in the Americas, that's fine too. We've got a couple of Dutch people that come in all the time. There's a, an Austrian woman who lives in Helsinki who participates. So Yucca: E eight nine ish kind of for Europe, Mark: Yeah. Michael: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We've even had on the Thursday night mixer, we've even had Australians join occasionally too. So Yucca: That sounds like that'd be early for them then, right? Michael: yeah, Yucca: getting up in the. Michael: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But I'd I'd love for some of the listeners to come and join us on one of the mixers and then cuz you know, you bring new ideas. And I we're always looking for new ritual ideas, Mark: Mm. Michael: That kind of bring meaning to our lives and to everybody else's. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah, cuz that's, I mean, that's what we're doing, right? We're, we're create, we're, it's a creative process for us. We've got these sort of frameworks like the Wheel of the Year and the, the ritual format that I laid out. Although people can use other ritual formats too. That's fine. But it's, it's an ongoing process of creation and of taking some old traditions and folding them in where they fit but creating new stuff as well. One of the innovations that we, that we've been doing for the l past year or so is if people want to be done with something, if they want to be finished with something in their. They can write it in the chat and then I take the chat file and I print it on my printer and I take it and I burn it in my cauldron. So it is actually being burnt physically. But it just takes a little bit of technical processing before that happens. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: And it's those kinds of innovations that are really useful for online rituals. And boy, if you have new ideas about things we can do for online rituals, I, I would love to hear 'em. Yucca: So thank you so much for sharing your story and your visions or the future with us. This has been, it's, it's really been beautiful to hear and to get that insight. Thank you, Michael. Michael: Well, thank you for having me on. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's been delightful hearing from you and, and I, I gotta say, I, I feel like our community is very lucky. You've been exploring religion and and folklore and ritual for a long time in a lot of different frameworks and I feel really fortunate that you've landed with us cuz I like you so. Michael: Okay. Well thanks very much. I like you too, Mark: Okay folks, that'll be all for this week. And as always, we'll have another episode for you next week on the Wonder Science Based Paganism. Have a great week. Yucca: Thanks everybody.

Here is a very lightly edited transcript of the SuperCrowdHour for July, The Power of a Purpose Round with Parker Clay CEO Ian Bentley, DealMaker CEO Rebecca Kacaba and Renew Venture Capital's Mark Hubbard.Devin: I have just the most extraordinary panel discussion organized today, and I just couldn't be more excited about it. Rebecca Kasaba is the CEO of DealMaker, which is one of the fastest-growing companies in North America. I mean, Rebecca, you're just killing it. You're absolutely crushing it. We're thrilled to have you here to take a minute to be on the show. Ian Bentley is the CEO of Parker Clay, and he's working with help from Rebecca. He's in the middle of a $15 million goal of a crowdfunding campaign. We're excited to talk to him about that. He's got an incredible social mission. I just love what he's doing. And Mark Hubbard, who is the managing director of Renew Venture Capital, he's playing a vital role in putting that together. And so they've created, and they are sort of walking their talk, eating the dog food, as folks in Silicon Valley like to say, they are actually modeling the use of what they've started to call a purpose round. And I'm excited to talk to them about that because their crowdfunding campaign is really centered on fulfilling their mission.Devin: So with that, Ian, let me invite you to just take a minute and tell us about the mission, the social purpose behind and the motivation and purpose for Parker Clay.Ian: Thanks, Devin. Yeah, and doing it in a minute would be a little bit tricky, but I can try. I just got home, back to California, where our headquarters are here in the US. But I just got back from our factory in Ethiopia; I was there for actually about a month. A little bit longer than I'm normally there. But we so as you can imagine, we've got both an Ethiopian headquarters and a US headquarters. And it started back in 2012 when my family and I bought one-way tickets, left California, left our careers, moved to Ethiopia; and we moved there primarily to help women who had been caught in trafficking and really looking for more dignified employment opportunities. That was not that line of work. And we were doing skills training, and job training, discovered the leather industry while we were living there, and saw it as primarily being exported to the world, like Europe. And we thought we could create jobs for women. And really, that was the purpose of why we were there to create opportunities for women to thrive. And we are doing that through business. So really kind of changing the model around even aid that has been poured into the country for many, many years and shifting that to a trade model and doing business at scale. And we'll talk more about the manufacturing opportunities and all that we're doing there. But we've got a team now of about 200 people, 80% of whom are women. And we are proud of the impact and the work we get to do every day through that.Devin: Yeah, it is just really inspiring what you're doing. And I was shocked by the story when I heard it and thrilled and really admire the work that you've been doing. You've been at this for a while now. It's been a decade or so since you, the roots of this effort, began. Is that right?Ian: Yeah, Yeah. We officially started in 2014. That's when we set up the entity. So it's been almost ten years. I have lost all my hair and gotten a few more gray hairs, and working alongside my wife is the creative director of Parker Clay, and we've got five kids, so a very full life as well. But it's been it's an exciting time at the moment really for what we're doing because a lot of the hard work we've put into the foundation over these past few years is now really ripe to scale. So that's why we're doing what we're doing.Devin: Yeah. Well, Rebecca, as you have, you know, worked with Ian, one of the things that I've observed from our past conversations about this, and we've had an opportunity to talk about it a few times, I think you have a real passion for this. I wonder if you tell us a little bit about how you feel about this and how you're working to DealMaker to support Parker Clay.Rebecca: Devin, I'm happy to. Yeah, we're really excited about what Parker Clay is doing. Remember when my team first met Ian, we were so excited about the company and the mission and the way they're having such a transformative impact on Ethiopia that we were like, Okay, this is one deal we've got to get for the system. We've got to win this one. So what DealMaker does is essentially give companies the technology infrastructure they need to raise capital digitally online. And so traditionally, in my background as a capital markets attorney, I saw a lot of paperwork being exchanged in order to get capital raising done. And when the Jobs Act came out, I saw the opportunity for all of this capital raising to move online. And, you know, like Ian, it's been a short ten-year journey where we've watched the legislation transform, and we've really seen digital marketing take a huge foothold now in this industry and give entrepreneurs a way to communicate their message to all the four corners of the Internet, to people who their message might appeal to and build up a community behind them and don't want to get too into it because I know we'll continue to chat about it for the next hour, but it's something I'm really passionate about, the impact that people today want to have with their investments, especially when they see companies like Parker play, and they want to do things, you know, they see what Mark and Renew are doing. And this whole trend of impact investing is something that we're all fortunate to be a part of and get to propel forward, which really just makes the world a better place and gets better businesses funded.Devin: Yeah. Well, Mark, I want to turn to you now for a second. We've it's my sense, and I may be wrong, forgive me if I am, but it's my sense that you played a really vital role in pulling this together for both your capital and your concept. So what I'd like to do is to invite you to talk a little bit about your role in all of this and why it is that what Ian does resonates with you.Mark: Sure. I guess it goes back to sort of the genesis of the term purpose around for us, you know, what we were trying to accomplish. And then Ian became sort of part of the first use case for that, not the total piece, but certainly the proof case for, for why we want to do it. As Rebecca said, everything we do is impact. We have a venture studio and a venture capital firm, and it's all either social impact companies or it's women and historically excluded founders. And those don't have to be impact companies. And we want to, I mean, look, we're part of, as Rebecca mentioned, this sort of global shift and what I sort of call a movement. It's kind of a paradigm shift where more and more people want to align what they say they believe about the world with what their money does in it. Right. Or what their effort does in it. A lot of people will shift professionally in those ways. I mean, I guess I am in some ways, it's taken me 20 years, but in some ways, I'm part of that shift as well. And so, you know, we looked at the look, any time you do investing, you're a two-sided marketplace. Right. So I have investors that I invest on behalf of, and I have companies and founders that we invest in. And so the thing we saw was really twofold, both sides of that marketplace. One, that it was really frustrating that only rich people, you know, only accredited investors, could... I mean, they still, to this day, right in the fund, I can't take anybody who's not accredited. I have to see your tax statements.Mark: So I really can't take anybody who's not accredited. And so that's frustrating, like in and of itself, just sort of from an investing standpoint that you can't invest in early-stage companies; you can't really do VC. When you couple that with the idea that this is an effort to align your values with what your money does, like, that's a justice issue that a non-accredited investor is not allowed to do. We're only going to let rich people do that. You know what? What is the what's the power that we leave on the table and in that dynamic? So that's one issue, right? Then the other was, what do we do about--and Ian will probably be okay with me saying this--there's a whole lot of companies that could be big, huge, successful companies that the founders are dynamic, that people want to support, that people align with aspirationally, that it's not just a product that they buy and that it's really something they want to be a part of themselves. But it's hard to figure out how you put those companies into a venture fund. And because they're too capital intensive, or the timeline is too long, or they're just not in vogue, or they're systemic issues, you know, as it comes down to like a lot of women and historically excluded founders. And so, how do we open pathways? How do we support these kinds of purpose-focused companies to allow them to go raise expansion capital, real, real money? Like ten, 20, $70 million. By being able to tell their story of their purpose and what they're trying to accomplish more broadly and involve a much bigger community in that discussion.Devin: And. I want to just pause here for a moment to say a couple of things. First off, if you are here in the Zoom room with us, please, we invite you to begin thinking about thoughtful questions you have for these extraordinary individuals who are on the panel today. We're going to welcome your questions. You can use the Q&A function in Zoom to ask those questions most readily. And I also want to reiterate the invitation. If you're watching on YouTube and would like to ask a question, just hit on.s4g.biz to register and hop into the call. We'd love to have you join us here in the Zoom room, where you can ask a question. So now, continuing on the discussion, I hate to interrupt the flow, but you know,Devin: It really is, I think, exciting to think about what this means. You know, Rebecca, you've got this technology that you're deploying, and you hinted at this already, that allows people like Ian to begin to connect with people who are not yet part of the community. That's a pretty exciting thing. Tell us about your technology.Rebecca: Yeah. So the way we set up an offering, if you've got a brand like Parker Clay, a really nice high-value brand, you want to allow them to control the buying experience so that an investor coming in has the same high-end experience to buy shares as they would to buy a purse or some similar product from Parker Clay. And so, we allow them to set up a standalone website with an Invest Now button. And our goal is to really make it as easy for investors to buy shares online as it is to buy a pair of shoes. So get them through the securities law exemption, get their payments, their investments funded, get contracts signed, get the securities law exemptions and background checks, run all very streamlined purchasing experience at the click of a button and then allow the companies to have access to their funnel and really to treat their capital raise the same they way they would if they were digitally marketing a product so they can see who their buyers are, where their interest level stems from, and they can really then start to identify the community that is interested in their capital, raise and build a community around that profile and then reach more people. And our goal is to really expand this, to make capital raising global so that we can right now allow people to raise across North America as well as into different other regions so that they can find all the different folks that might be interested in what they're doing and really leverage the power of the Internet to its fullest capacity.Devin: It is exciting to think about this. And Mark, you know, it's I kind of credit you again, I apologize if I'm getting this wrong, but I kind of credit you with thinking of this and identifying the possibility that purpose can be a connector that Rebecca can kind of leverage with her technology to benefit someone like Ian, an entrepreneur like Ian to attract capital. I wonder. How did you develop this idea? Because it got I got to say, the traditional view of crowdfunding is you leverage your community to raise capital. And what you're doing is you've changed the thesis and say, we're going to leverage our purpose to build a community from which we can build raise capital. What where did that idea come from, Mark?Mark: Yes, like, like all my great ideas. I assume it came from somewhere else. Yeah. Look, the history of the crowdfunding world started with a lot of crowd talk, right? That. That, in general, just you want to get to the people, whatever that means. And it's not a particularly strategic idea necessarily, but you just go out to the crowd. And then there became this idea of community. Right. That really, when you look at what happens in a crowdfunding scenario, what happens is really your community for the most part, right? You may broaden it some, but a lot of it is leveraging people that were already in the community or are sort of on the edges and will come in and feel an affinity. And that's all like that's really useful stuff. It's exciting to take a community. I mean, even before you get to any purpose discussion, right? They have this community that is just deeply identified with what they do. And, you know, thousands and thousands of people who would do who would drive anywhere or go anywhere or just, you know, to be associated with their business. And so that kind of crowd or community thing is useful and helpful and can help one of these campaigns be successful. My thought was just as great as that is. If you can take a community and you can activate that community around a purpose, that's a different thing. Like that is maybe it feels like a nuanced difference, but that's there's a power in that's different than the whole rest of the activities. And so, therefore, yes, there ought to be an opportunity to have all kinds of people who would who do want to make an investment.Mark: That's why you know, this is this bespoke landing page thing. Right. That's an interesting animal because, although functionally, it should be as easy as buying a product, right? It's not quite like buying a product. And so but you do want to tell a story about the business and the product, but you do want to tell the impact story. Like, that's a lot of stuff to balance and a lot of needles to thread. But if people can get into that, if people can who do want to invest in something that will be successful, who want this to be part of what they're, you know, money makes possible in the world, can also then connect with this story of transformation. You know, that's really, really powerful. And I do believe that that could be broadened far beyond sort of just your normal customer base. And look, then, the flip side of a crowdfund, right? What's so great about that idea is that if you that every person that you can align with you that wasn't a customer before. Not only do they probably become a customer, but they become the whole process is taking customers and the community and turning them into owners and advocates. And so when they became owners, they become advocates in a way that could really drive sort of the underlying fundamentals of the business going forward. And so it seemed to be for me like the, you know, sort of the perfect storm of possibility there.Devin: Well, it is exciting to think about how this has the potential to work. And of course, now, Ian, you're living in the middle of it, right? You're in the middle of this campaign. You've been you launched this. I'm trying to recall, was it early this year that you launched the campaign or late last year?Ian: It was late last year. Yeah, November of last year.Devin: So you've had enough of a run now, I guess, to see how it's working. Are you seeing actually some people who were outside your community that have been drawn in by purpose to invest? And then the parallel question, and I'm curious about, is, are we also seeing are you also seeing those folks who come in as fresh members of the community, as investors? Are they also becoming customers?Ian: Yeah, we are the, and I think the way Mark was describing it is, is true. The power of community is is is a big deal. And I mean, I'm even reminded in coming back from Ethiopia how important community is for all of us. The word that I kept hearing over and over in Ethiopia was resilient, resilient, resilient. And sometimes, you know, you've got some people that are strong, some people that are weak. How do we help each other? How do we help each other through those challenges and the good and the bad? And it's a beautiful thing that I get to see, perhaps sometimes more when I'm in Ethiopia, but reminded that even here in the US and other parts of the world where we have even adopted this proverb that it's an African proverb that says If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And we're constantly saying that. It's become such an ingrained part of our DNA at Parker Clay, where we look through decisions with the business with regards to whether we go together; what does that look like? And I can tell endless stories of even just these last few weeks in Ethiopia of doing just that. And you know, what we get to do, and I think even just what Mark was saying with regards to how we thread all these stories together, that we are a business, we're a for-profit, purpose-driven business, right? We're a legal public benefit corporation that has the idea baked into it that we are benefiting the public in some way.Ian: And so driving that purpose every day at Parker Clay is essential. But we're also building, you know, an exciting business. And so the question I think that comes up as we approach the community, you know, and it's a little bit more of a newer idea, is can you be kind of can you focus on both profit and purpose? And I think, historically, we have separated these things very distinctly, right? Where we have kind of charitable giving, charitable donations, aid, things that we're doing which are not bad and are needed. But then we have for-profit, right? And then we have businesses that are just purely about profit. And I think that that has been the model for many, many years. And only really, and I would say the last ten or so years, have businesses been looking at more of a purpose-driven structure. And, you know, we've seen that because we've been doing it from the beginning. And so I think that's where as we approach the community, we get to certainly bring that out of more of our existing customers. And we've seen a significant amount of people interested in this round. For many, it might be their first type of investment like this, right? Because this is still a new space. And I think opportunities like this webinar and the education around it are important because, for a lot of people, they just haven't had the opportunity unless they've been, like Mark said in the beginning, more of institutional investors who have that experience. And so for customers who have been buying our bags, this might be the first type of investment.Ian: And one practical way to share that. We had a warehouse sale here in Santa Barbara at our warehouse, and the community came out. They were excited to buy bags and drove from kind of all over California to come. And this one woman came up to me and said, Hey, I'm one of your shareholders. And she said, I'm with a big smile with a ton of excitement, and that just would never be possible before, right? Where she was saying it with pride as an owner, I'm a shareholder in the company. I'm excited not just about your bags, which I love, but also being part of this in a deeper way with you. And so, you know, we have seen both the existing community base, which I think has been a big part of our strength, and that's also brought in some new faces who have then converted to customers, some people who maybe own businesses now kind of come in and go, hey, one of my gifts for my employees or my clients. And so it really has allowed us to stretch that out and the opportunities out with our offering, not only from the investment side but from the product side. And that is a benefit, I would say for sure, with this type of route is if you are a consumer brand, you get to bring in this customer base, and if you have a product, it's also fun to share because you kind of get both investment and customers who are buying your product.Devin: Yeah, it's really exciting to think about the synergy between the investment and the product sales. Of course, I've dated myself just by using the 90s word synergy, but that's where, you know, it was ingrained. It was beaten, I think. You know, many of us in business school back in the day got a tattoo on an arm. Um, so anyway, sorry. I apologize for using the word synergy. But there is some exciting interplay between the investors and the customers. Rebecca, I want to talk to you a little bit more broadly about investing in these kinds of deals. I know you're a broker-dealer, and you have to be careful. You're an attorney. You're smarter than I am. Help us understand. How sort of anyone now can invest as easily almost in a deal like Parker Clay Let's be a little bit nonspecific so you can stay a little bit out of some of the regulatory scrutiny for a minute. So you're not recommending a deal, but tell us a little bit about how people can get comfortable that it's okay to invest. It's a new thing. Ian made it very clear. Right? It's new to people. How do people get comfortable with that as investors?Rebecca: Yeah. Thanks, Devin. And I will disclaim that because I'm not licensed in the broker-dealer. Our broker-dealer helps the issuers' side rather than being the type of broker-dealer that works for the investors. But I think what we're seeing is investors are getting comfortable with the purpose and the mission of the business. And, of course, the regulations are very well designed to make sure that investors have access to all the information they need. So they have fully standardized offering documents that tell them prescriptively about the business and the business plan and who the founders are. And there are bad actor checks run on all the founders before the offerings get set up. And then there are caps on the amount of money that investors can invest in these deals because it is supposed to be for investors to build a portfolio of investments and not, you know, bet the farm on one investment that they're making. And so what we are doing is bringing that awareness to folks so that they can participate in these kinds of offerings and build that kind of portfolio. If you look at it according to Global Impact Investor Network, the impact investing global portfolio stands at 1.2 trillion assets under management. And so there's a lot of capital out there that's looking for deals like Parker Play where people want to be making an impact, as Mark described, with their money and the key trends that we're seeing as part of that impact investing. Ian really described the most important one to me, which is as millennials and the younger generation view the world, they don't view it the same way some of the older generations do with charity and business, and business is out to make a profit, and charity does good in the world.Rebecca: They really see business as a better change agent than charity, and charitable charities need to be able to have a more sustainable business model. And so the two are really blending together in a really interesting way, with Parker Clay being the perfect example of that. We've also seen, you know, statistics like six out of every ten millennials have actually done impact investing, so they know what it is. The people who do it feel good about it. They do it repeatedly. And so we see it really as this snowball that's rolling down the hill where you've now had, you know, ten years ago, the online buying ecosystem was not what it is today. It was almost at zero. People went into bricks and mortar stores to buy everything they needed. Fast forward ten years. That's grown into a $16 trillion industry. And so as we see investing, moving online in the same way, moving out of the boardrooms and the, you know, physical handshakes and online, we've also seen a really nice change in the types of founders that are getting funded with increased female and minority founders because of the way the messaging is being presented. So all of that to say, I think investors are this is resonating with investors. They want to do this. We're seeing the upward trend, and the legislation's been around for over ten years now and has gone through a number of iterations to make sure that it's safe for investors.Devin: Yeah, it's it is exciting to see, you know, in the last, I think, seven or eight quarters, we've seen venture capital decline every quarter. You know, there was some buzz around AI and notwithstanding the buzz around AI, venture capital investment still declined. And uh, but we're seeing Crowdfunding and Reg A plus kinds of deals are pretty solid. We haven't seen the same declines in that space. There's real resilience, and it is exciting to see. And I'm hopeful that as we get a little more confident in markets recovering, we'll see real growth in investment Crowdfunding going on. Mark, I wonder if you would just take a minute and talk a little bit about it. You're thinking about investing as well. I want to make sure that--I know there are entrepreneurs, and we'll come back to that. There are entrepreneurs listening who desperately want to figure out how they, too, can raise $15 million. But all of them are also investors, and others are here primarily because they're interested in investing in Parker Clay or another deal. And your vision, right for this, was driven in no small part by the idea that ordinary investors should have the same opportunity that wealthy investors have. Talk to us a little bit about that.Mark: Sure. Well, I mean, I can do my philosophy of investing, but the two of them just did it. So I'm surprised. I'm surprised they didn't share my deck to make the point. Yeah, there has been historically this two, you know, classically called the two-pocket idea, that in one pocket, I put all the money in the world, and in the other pocket, I give it away to make good things happen. Right? And so that purpose and the context of profit is bad and distracting, and profit in the context of purpose is bad and distracting. Right. And that's just not the world anymore. I mean, it's fine. That was the world for a long time. Friedman messed a bunch of people up. But it's not. I mean, the world now is a bunch of founders who don't see trade-offs, who don't come out of the nonprofit world. We want to build big, giant companies that do really well, that have purpose at the center of what they do, and that the purpose is not a distraction from the profit.Mark: It's that I make my profit via, like, “What are you talking about?” Like, “The purpose drives my profit.” Those aren't competing ideas, and I won't like to give up all my profit because that's business, and that's what makes the purpose possible. Like, what are you even talking about, right? Like, they don't even know how how to put it in that context. And that's how younger investors are, too, right? Like, that's the way they want to think about things. And so so yeah, that's just sort of a new-ish idea. But it's now the water everybody swims in, and everybody better adjust. You know, I always attribute to this, I've always heard it attributed to Marc Andreessen, you know, fellow, fellow purpose warrior who said that impact companies were were like houseboats, right? They're not a good boat and not a good house. And my response was always, that seems kind of weird coming from somebody who spends a bunch of time on a yacht.Devin: So, you know what? There are companies like Parker Clay that are both good houses and good boats, and I don't even know what you're talking about, man. And so, um, so yeah, so that is the future. And I think we're just going to see sort of a massive shift. And although this is new, you know, you know, it's my job generally to, to, to break up assumptions, although this is new and it's hard like I don't you watch any of the meme stock stuff that happened in the last couple of years. I mean, nobody had heard of Robinhood before. And everybody's got mutual funds, and everybody knows what the stock market is, and everybody owns private shares and companies, and people want to go to Berkshire Hathaway's, you know, annual like, no, this isn't new. This is a highly, highly regulated marketplace for people to do what they constantly do all the time. Otherwise, in other places, it just opens up a little slice of the market. Right? It opens up this early stage, mid-stage growth, stage investment in private companies that you didn't have access to before, and now you do so. So take all that comfort you have from all the rest of it, right? And apply it to this new asset class that you just were cut out of before.Devin: Yeah, it's an interesting point. You know, a meaningful part of diversification is to add some private assets to the the mix of things that you're holding. So that's a great, great point. Now, Ian, as you think about your offering, I wonder if you would just take a minute with, you know, we've been kind of talking about the focus on investors, and you, more than anyone, are authorized to speak about your deal. Tell us why you would like why you think it's a good idea for an investor to participate.Ian: Yeah. No. Thanks for that opportunity to share that. Look, one of the wealthiest individuals on the planet right now is in the fashion space. Actually, he is the wealthiest individual on the planet. And it's only been, I would say, in the last 20 or so years that, you know, or 20 plus that that's really kind of launched into the stratosphere with what he's done. The fashion space is really exciting. Africa is really exciting. And when we look at it through this lens when we were living in Ethiopia. It was really an aha moment where everything we were talking about profit, purpose, all those things really aligned when I'm there, and my family and I are working really towards this effort of saying hearing over and over from women saying we don't want handouts, we want jobs, we want opportunities. And when we discovered this raw material, which source--think about ten years ago, we didn't know where things were made or how they were made. We weren't looking at tags. This whole awakening of the conscious consumer was born about ten years ago. And it wasn't just a moment in time. It's a movement. And the movement has been picking up a lot of energy over these last ten years to the point where even, as Rebecca said, with millennials and younger generations. They are investing and spending where their values are. And I think that that is seen today more than ever before in history. And so when we created Parker Clay, we both looked at it and said in order and just to build on what Mark was saying, in order to have the impact we want to see in the world, which we believe women should not have to compromise and choose these really terrible, you know, routes to provide for themselves and their families.Ian: And if we can change that through economic empowerment, then watch out because these women are reinvesting 90% of their incomes back into their communities, into their families, and their kids' lives are going to change. Schools are going to change. These are the next leaders of the world. It's a good investment. And if we can make really beautiful products that, frankly, the world wants, then the combination of those things is so powerful. We're in a space that is approaching $300 billion in terms of the market. So the leather space for fashion brands, both in bags and shoes, kind of become the cornerstone of and building blocks of these fashion brands. And when it comes to Africa. It's an exciting, exciting time. I really cannot stress this enough, for me, spending weeks and months of my year in Ethiopia and in East Africa, the manufacturing world is changing dramatically. If you think about the Industrial Revolution at the peak, it was about 20 million jobs. And right now, there is a shift happening of about 100 million manufacturing jobs that are leaving China and looking for a new home. And when you think about Africa, by 2050, a quarter of the population is going to live on the continent of Africa.Ian: These are incredibly resourced, capable, young, vibrant workers that are looking for opportunities. And so when we look at Africa, we're also, and that's what is exciting about Parker Clay is that it's not just the brand that is selling into a market that is approaching 300 billion. We're also a brand that has taken on the manufacturing opportunity to become vertically integrated. And so we have the opportunity as a manufacturer and as a brand to really press into this market. And we've got the track record. We're 20 plus million in historical sales where we have, again, we've been selling and creating opportunity primarily here in the US and starting to tiptoe into international markets as well. And so there are a lot of very exciting pieces that this raise and why we're doing it. One is to bring the community into it. This would be our typical series A round, and to say, rather than going that traditional institutional round, we want to bring the community to be part of this with us because we see where we're going. We see the potential of building this company into a multinational, really significant brand that can compete on the global level with the other well-known fashion brands in the world who, by the way, might be buying leather from Ethiopia but stamping "made in" somewhere else with it. And that's where we're excited to bring people into that story with us to be part of this with us and truly, again, live up to that value of we go together where you get to be part of it, not just from a financial side with the investment, but also the impact side.Ian: And we are absolutely, and I can tell you that, just literally coming back days from Ethiopia. The way that we are transforming lives is humbling. It's just humbling from my position to be part of that and to see. I'll give you an example. We had a celebration that we've created this called we call it our Center of Excellence, where women can come in with no experience in the leather industry. We can give them job training, skills training along with it. We've partnered with a local bank called Anat, which means mother, and they do financial literacy training. We have a subsidized lunch program. We have a food pantry where we subsidize meals. We have a huge bus that we transport people to be back and forth from home to work because transport is a problem challenge. And we also consistently look at livable wages in the country and are constantly leveling up with regard to that because inflation is a challenge for them. So we take all these impact pieces, and we set that as a priority. We've also become one of the highest-ranked certified B Corps, and we're the top in the world in terms of the leather space. And that also allows us to be third-party accredited with regard to this impact. So it's not just us saying it, it's saying, hey, we're putting our proof through this accreditation as well.Ian: And we're really proud of that. And the vision really for us is to create millions of opportunities, not only through Parker Clay but through the network and showing people that the opportunities here are endless with regards to these women and what can happen in a place like Ethiopia and Africa. Um, so that's, you know, that's where we're at, and we're excited to be able to offer this to the community, to those people that are listening in. Um, and also, you know, I just want to add in with Mark, Rebecca and even Devin, you as well. You guys are part of that community, and really grateful for the contributions that you guys make in lending your voice and the efforts because what we're doing and the power of this whole thing is really we go together. And I think that it is an exciting time where we get to prove that we can do this and put really meaningful opportunities in front of people, not just from the investment side but from the impact side. And I can tell you because I've been in both a nonprofit and a for-profit siloed space, that this space that I'm in now, I've never been more motivated and on fire to work towards the success of this mission and purpose. And I think that we're going to see more people who are aligned with those things motivated and doing similar things as well.Devin: That's great. And we've got.Devin: A great question that came in from Gretchen. She said, Um, do you foresee institutional investors making this mind shift toward purpose investing? Or will it take continuous reg CF and reg growth to lead this new investment world? And Mark, maybe we can start with you, and then Rebecca and Ian, maybe you can close us out on this, but I think it's a great question.Mark: Yeah, I mean, they have–really, if you're old like me, you remember a 2010 research report from JP Morgan back when. Sort of, you know, that long ago, right? So it was sort of a social entrepreneurship, social enterprise. We didn't quite know what the thing was yet. And the argument was that whatever this thing was, this impact thing could potentially be a $1 trillion asset class. That was their argument someday. And you know how asset classes work. Asset classes are like defined verticals of kinds of companies. So small companies, big companies, other kinds of assets, real estate. Right. That's an asset class. And so they said there could be one of those. That's impact, depending on how you define impact. Now, it's something like a 20 to $50 trillion market. And so they were wrong, but they were wrong because what we found out is that it's not the institutional world did not respond to it as an asset class. How we responded to it is as a lens, right? And so it didn't it wasn't like, Oh, I'm going to invest in small-cap stocks and impact stocks. It was, How do I look at small-cap stocks through the lens of impact investing? Because in the institutional world, all impact framework is a risk-adjusted return framework. So they're trying to say, what are the risks associated with this? If I don't look at the impact pieces of it. And so it's become this lens.Mark: Now, what I think is so interesting about CF and Reg A and what I do right early stage investing is that you can do that, you know, on a big global scale. It's just really hard. Like it's hard to figure out how you run a giant multinational corporation in a way that's ethical, and it's just hard, especially if you're trying to turn those around and you have things like ESG and then the backlash to ESG and. Right. And so that's it's incredibly important. Everybody needs there need to be brilliant people working in that world. I just sort of punt on that and say, you know, where it's not all that complicated is in relatively early-stage investing. Look at the kind of control and focus that Ian's able to have right because of this company is what it is. And because it's at the size and stage that it is. And then we can help them build companies that look different in the end than the ones that maybe we have now, even when they're big and giant. And so that's just a meme more satisfying, a more interesting sort of place to play to sort of one-to-one almost what I believe with what I'm making happen. And so, yeah, institutions do do it. It's just a more complicated sort of world in the big high-end, global, national.Devin: Great, great thoughts. Rebecca, do you want to add anything to that?Rebecca: I think Mark covered it well. So the only thing I would add is what we see is typically people really connecting to the specific purpose of the company, and think Reg A gives an investor the ability to connect on a very personal level. And so when you see impact investing in a fund, it's going to be certain high-level defined parameters. Whereas an individual can say, I love what Ian's doing in Ethiopia, and that mission speaks to me. So I want to invest in that company versus like a bucket of companies that have a certain mission. One other thing that I want to add that Ian jogged in my mind that I want to call out. I think it's really interesting how he said it's our series A, but we're about community, and so we're going to choose to do this. There are a lot of companies historically that have similarly made that choice, who think the way Ian thinks. A lot of people don't know that Peloton--huge company today--started out as a crowdfunding campaign. And you've got companies like Substack, you know, going out around a Series B saying we're a community-driven company, and so we want to do this everything down to, you know, the Green Bay Packers, an NFL team who says we're all about our community, we're fan owned, and they're the number one brand in the NFL because they've been doing this for over 60 years. So it is out there. It is a trend that's happening. A lot of those stories we need to just bring to light so people understand that people do think this way and feel this way.Devin: Yeah, great. I think if.Ian: Devin, if I could add to, I think, you know, what's interesting too, is. It's more touchable like it's more connected in that sense. Like I'm available. If anyone has questions, reach out. Right. Like, and I think with these bigger investments and you typically, it feels more unreachable or untouchable. And like the woman coming up to me and saying, Hey, I'm one of your shareholders, that's so exciting. Or I get emails from people saying, I just invested, I respond, and we communicate. I love that. And I think that's another piece that's really powerful because, again, we were just believing also, as a philosophy, we were designed to be in community together. And this is just one more extension of doing just that.Devin: Yeah, that's a great point.Devin: Carl Deacon is asked a great question. And, you know, I'll ask you to tackle this first and then Rebecca and Mark, you may want to jump in and add something. But the question is, how are you attracting people to become investors? Messaging, and communication channels targeting investor candidates. Describe some of the real tactics at the practical level.Ian: Yeah, it's a good question. We've been learning a lot since we started. Having a community is a huge opportunity to start with, right? So we've sold to, like Mark said, thousands of customers. We've been doing this for about ten years. So we've got a really strong customer base that's highly engaged. These are reoccurring customers, people who are coming back, and sharing with friends and family. So that's a huge piece. But what we recognize, too, is that buying a bag and investing in a company, those are a bit different. And so we've had to cater some of that communication that's a little bit different. Right. And I think we've grown one of the one of the most powerful things that you can have is to bring in, I think, a community into that. Think outside of that. One thing that we've been experiencing and expert at is just the way that we do paid advertising and outreach and things like that. And, you know, sometimes we try things, and it works; sometimes we try things, and it doesn't work. And so it's a constant iteration around the types of things we're doing. I think what's most important is setting up a, and if you're a kind of a digital marketer, you have this mindset, but there's also this idea of, you know, broader outreach campaigns, and then you have multiple touchpoints that you continue to follow up with someone. And that's one thing that DealMaker is helpful with, too, is that it's easier to kind of automate some of that communication. But I think email, phone calls, if you have a product, being able to send the product out to people has been really helpful, I think, at its core. And then, on top of that, you can experiment with paid advertising and certain things like that. You just, I think as you mature in any of the campaigns, and that's one of the things that we've seen is as we've brought in more from the campaigns, then we can kind of continue to invest into it and try some more of those things out. So. Those have probably been the core pieces.Devin: Fantastic.Devin: Rebecca, do you want to add anything in terms of those tactics or Mark?Rebecca: I think that that's all through--primarily, it's the website as the main communication vehicle, and then the email really is the primary form of communication to a certain extent or other different, you know, voice mail. I think direct voice-on-voice contact, um, presentation info sessions where people can understand and really get a deep dive on the company and really connect with the founder and understand the founder's mission, all like a Zoom conference. All those are communication methods that folks are experimenting with and trying.Devin: Excellent.Devin: Mark, anything you want to add?Mark: No. I mean, the DealMaker is a good example of believing that that kind of stuff's important. I mean, they bought, you know, what they would argue what a lot of people would argue was sort of the premier marketing firm. Right. To go out and tell stories, to make it part of a vertically integrated approach. I mean, so, you know, for us, the purpose rounds isn't a company; it's just a category we're trying to help define, right? It's if you're a historically excluded founder or a woman founder or you're doing, you know, an impact thing, and you're doing one of these Reg A. We would define that sort of as trying to raise a round of funding with purpose. That's a purpose round. And so, so we chose to engage by saying, look, we have resources, and so why don't we come alongside founders who want to do this column alongside company operators who want to do this? Because one thing about it is that it can be sort of semi-complicated. There's a bunch of vendors. I mean, what DealMaker has done so well, say, well, we'll in-house some of those, right? So it's a much more seamless kind of approach. So they have a transfer agent and but you still have a lawyer, and you still have an auditor, and you still...Mark: So, it still can be kind of complex. And number two, it can be expensive. I mean, you write a check to all those people, and, you know, Ian can attest to you can be a hugely successful company doing really, really well for a long time. And you don't just pull sort of free money out of your ear to make things happen. That's, you know, that can be a real challenge. So we just said, why don't we help try to take those two things off the table? Number one, why don't we try to come alongside and sort of help do some top-level management so it's a little bit easier to manage the vendors? And then number two, why don't we use some of our capital and just fund the whole thing in a model that gets us that money back at some point so we can help somebody out too. But how do we take all the all that, you know, how do I come up with the money off the table and just provide the money? And that then opens up the ability to do things like marketing and focusing on storytelling in a way that you maybe would have a hard time swallowing otherwise.Devin: Yeah, well.Devin: Our time is, is up. And this has just been a fascinating discussion for me, and I'm grateful for all of your insights and for you making the time. I'm grateful to those who joined us today to hear what you're saying. Before we wrap up, let me invite each of you to just take a minute and share a closing thought, a brief closing thought. We just have a minute or two, but why don't we go to Rebecca, Mark and then Ian?Rebecca: Why you're here is to talk about impact investing, and I think the snowball's rolling down the hill.Devin: It's a great message. Great message.Devin: Mark, any closing thoughts?Mark: Closing thoughts? Uh. Um. Invest.ParkerClay.com.Ian: That was my thought, Mark.Mark: Oh, now you got to come up with something. You're the...Rebecca: You're mine too, but I can't say it.Ian: I know it would feel weird about it.Mark: I'm like, I'm the one person who could just come out and say it.Ian: I love that. You'll see if you go on LinkedIn, Mark often will do that on my post in case I miss it. Look, I'm, I'm honored for anyone who is listening or part of this that you would consider investing. We're in kind of the tail end of our last few months of this round. And so we're going to be making a big push to bring in the hopefully the final amounts of what we're hoping to raise. So would love to have you check out the site. Invest.ParkerClay.com, and email me you can email me directly at Ian@ParkerClay.com. If you have any questions, I'm happy to chat more about what we're doing or questions about these types of rounds.Devin: Fantastic.Devin: Well, again, thank you, all three of you. I'm extremely grateful for your time. You know, the insights that you're providing are profoundly important, and it is exciting to think it truly is exciting to think for social entrepreneurs and diverse founders to think about the possibility that the very purpose that motivates and drives them is enabling their success and is not a friction, but it is a tool for accomplishing success and raising capital. To those of you who attended today, I want to thank you very much. Whether you're watching on YouTube or elsewhere or whether you're here with us in Zoom, we thank you very much for being here. I invite you to visit thesupercrowd.com to check out our upcoming future events. We will be holding three in-person events this fall and early winter. Um, we're at the earliest stages of planning, but it looks like we'll be in Salt Lake City in Baltimore and perhaps Northern California later this year, and we will continue doing the super crowd once a month. And so our next super crowd hour will be on August 19th, I think. Let's let me just double-check. August 16th, excuse me, August 16th. So four weeks from today, we'll see you here again. So thanks, everybody. I hope to see you again soon. Get full access to Superpowers for Good at devinthorpe.substack.com/subscribe

Education content is boring, we all know it. But how can we use it to cultivate an audience and improve our brand image.ResourceMark's Website Real Estate Marketing DudeThe Listing Advocate (Earn more listings!)REMD on YouTubeREMD on InstagramTranscript:00:00:02:07 - 00:01:05:13UnknownTell the editor your name and the website that we're going to put in the show notes here. My name is Mark Sullivan and the website is Homeowner Dash Handbooks. Who are you ready to rock? Yes, to anyone.00:01:09:21 - 00:01:28:18UnknownSo how do you attract new business? You constantly don't have to chase it. Hi, I'm Mike Webmaster Real Estate Marketing Dave and this podcast is all about building a strong personal brand. People have come to know, like trust and most importantly, refer. But remember, it is not their job to remember what you do for a living. It's your job to remind them.00:01:28:23 - 00:01:37:23UnknownLet's get started.00:01:41:03 - 00:01:58:20UnknownWhat's up? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the episode of the Real Estate Marketing Dude Podcast. Folks we're going to be chatting about today is and I'm basically going to dedicate the rest of this year to is being different, standing out, getting ahead, doing things differently. You're going to have to work a little bit harder in this type of marketplace.00:01:58:20 - 00:02:16:02UnknownAnd because of that, I mean, you're going to do things that you probably weren't used to doing. And when the market shifts, you have to shift with it. The ones who will stay and remain complacent are the ones who get their ass kicked in times like these. But on the flip side of that, I don't mean to be all doom and gloom because there's nothing but opportunity in shifts like this as well.00:02:16:02 - 00:02:32:21UnknownAt the same time. And it's only during a shift that you really build share market share, you build brand, you build huge opportunity because the shifts are when businesses are made really it's very hard to get ahead when everything is going well and everyone else is crushing it around you. But it's very easy to get ahead when nobody else is.00:02:33:02 - 00:02:50:19UnknownBut you need to know where that opportunity is going to be at so we're going to, you know, going forward, this is the second half of the year in 2014 and dedicate the rest of the year to sort of just standing out better serving. How do you become a better agent, a better lender? Why should people shoot, you know, choose, use what makes your shit not stink?00:02:51:12 - 00:03:10:20UnknownWhy are you the bottom? Why do people need to call you like that's a week? That's that. That's what we want to chat about. So I'm bringing on a past client friend, known him for a couple of years and he's a mortgage broker right now and you know, obviously mortgage brokerage business is down across the board. Right. So, however, he didn't stop.00:03:10:20 - 00:03:30:00UnknownHe kept working harder and harder. And I seen him working on this project that he's been building and whatnot, and I want him to come share his experience. But in short, what we're going to be chatting about today is how do you use education and how does that work within the buying cycle? A lot of times I see a lot of realtors try to create content and they try to create education, but it just falls on deaf ears.00:03:30:00 - 00:03:46:23UnknownIt never really works. They make a video or they make a post. They do it on Facebook and then it dies in the newsfeed and everyone forgot who the fuck they were or what the fuck they talked about. So how do you leverage education to convert, attract and get more business ultimately? So without further ado, let's go ahead and introduce our guest, Mr. Mark Sullivan.00:03:46:23 - 00:04:16:08UnknownWhat's up, Mark? Hey, what's going on? Mike Thanks for having me. Why don't you tell everybody a little bit about who the hell you are, where you at, and what are we going to be talking about today? Yeah, absolutely. My name is Mark Sullivan. I run a mortgage team out of Nashville, Tennessee, licensed in most of the Southeast and eight different states and built my business on the back of educating clients.00:04:16:08 - 00:04:43:23UnknownRight. Making sure that my clients, my clients stuck with me because of the education that I provide and the value that that I provide to my clients. So tell me about you. Obviously, you do a lot with real estate agents, I'm assuming. Right. So you work with a lot of real estate agents and I've never really it's crazy because we create a lot of videos, guys.00:04:43:23 - 00:05:00:16UnknownWe've done over 4000 videos like a scene every type of video could possibly create about real estate in space. And I can tell you that when you're creating videos on education, they're usually the least engaged pieces of content that you'll create, right? So if I create a video on the home buying process, I might get like ten views on that thing, right?00:05:00:22 - 00:05:22:04UnknownBut if I create a video about me dancing in a in an elf outfit at a listing, I'm going to get like 30 500,000 views on that video. But why is there a difference in content and it's not that one's bad or the other, it's just on you need to know. On how to use the content. Some of the most important content that you guys should have and everyone should have is education about why the fuck you're an expert?00:05:22:11 - 00:05:44:24UnknownLike Who the fuck are you and why should I let you tell me what to do on the largest investment of my house or in my lifetime in educational content is what we call core content. Core content is there. Everyone needs it. You have to have you imagine a hotel not having pictures of their pool and it's a resort online, right?00:05:45:00 - 00:06:05:16UnknownYeah, right. Exactly. No entities. That is their core content. Right. And you got to look at like from any other business, it's just go around other businesses just so you guys get in the right mindset because the question I'm going to ask yourself while I'm walking through these examples is if you visited your website, would you fucking hire you seriously, look at your own website and be like, Dude, would you would I hire myself?00:06:05:16 - 00:06:26:22UnknownLike, Seriously, what are my site actually tells people I'm an expert and why should they trust me? Because I'm a realtor. No one cares, right? That's where education comes in. So although it isn't like the most sexy type of content to create, it's the stuff you use over and over again with every single client. No one cares that your license, only one cares.00:06:26:22 - 00:06:46:24UnknownIs that your what you could do with the license? So how are you using education in your process? Like obviously you're more on the buy side, but talk to me about that. What do you do education wise? How do you leverage education to enhance the experience? But more importantly, make realtors look like freaking badasses because that's ultimately like your secret sauce, right?00:06:47:14 - 00:07:14:16UnknownRight. Right, exactly. And the difference I think the difference between the two videos, you know, the examples that you gave was the video's for entertainment purposes. Right. And the the education the education is more targeted. Right. You're shooting for a specific person that you're talking to and you're a specific audience that you're targeting things to. And so what we try to do is we find we find people where they're at in the process.00:07:14:16 - 00:07:36:22UnknownAnd when you have a whole when you have a whole learning center or a whole library of educate, then it doesn't matter where I find that person, I know where to place them. Right. If they if they're a renter, I know. I know to put education in front of them, that will make them a first time homebuyer if if their objection is that they have a low credit score.00:07:37:05 - 00:07:58:00UnknownI've got tons of credit score education material that I can put in front of these people. And, you know, they can consume at their own at their own pace and and start fixing their credit score. Right. If somebody comes up to me and says, you know, I get introduce somebody, hey, Mark's in the mortgage business. I'm like, Oh, yeah, I just bought a house for four months ago.00:07:58:00 - 00:08:17:01UnknownRight? That's that's like the ultimate thing for anybody to tell you, because they know that, you know, I'm not going to try to start selling them a mortgage or a real estate agent isn't going to start selling them a house because they just bought one. Right. That they're in the safe zone. But I go, okay, that's great. Hey, my clients, whenever my clients close, I always give them a gift.00:08:17:11 - 00:08:42:18UnknownAnd this gift is the homeowner handbook and it's a learning center. And half of it, not half of it, but a lot of it is based around being a great homeowner. I'd like to give this to you. Right. And that's that's usually where I leave it. But I hand that to them. I sign them up. They get a whole bunch of great value home maintenance videos about how to be an awesome homeowner and how to maintain their home.00:08:42:23 - 00:09:03:04UnknownAnd at least instead of saying, Oh, great, congratulations on closing your house four months ago, now I'm going to be in front of that person educating them on how to be a homeowner so that whenever I guess in the mortgage world, whenever the rates go down, they've already been been listening to me or whenever they're ready to buy a new house that they know that they need to come to me for a preapproval.00:09:04:15 - 00:09:25:12UnknownIt's a powerful thing because we all know that there's NAR stats out there that say that, you know, 87% of people say that they'll use their real estate agent again, but only 27% of them actually do the right thing. It's even less than that. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy because there's no power. All right.00:09:25:12 - 00:09:49:03UnknownSo well, I think the main point that the main point that I try to drive home is that when you have a robust learning center or I have a library of education, that there's nobody that you can meet out there that you can't slide into your environment and start educating them. If it's not right now for the future, yes, love it.00:09:50:02 - 00:10:10:18UnknownHere's what happens realistically. Like no one hears from anyone after they close. And like, it's funny because, you know, when you especially on the buy side, like your work or the client, you almost become friends with them. Like you have intimate conversations in the car, you're laughing together and whatnot. They're emotional, especially when there's like a couple. I mean, I used to go out to dinner with all my clients.00:10:10:18 - 00:10:24:16UnknownI was like sort of my secret. I would get them drunk and I'm like, they're you can ever cheat on me with anyone else. They're going to close all up. They're going all the way to the closing table. But that was I built a relationship. We go out to dinner, I would invest 3 to $400 per client just through dinners and whatnot.00:10:24:23 - 00:10:43:17UnknownAnd I did that strategically because I wasn't in it for their direct business. I was in it for the referral business because every single person they know they can refer me to. And that client experience is like what we're sort of talking about here. But Mark's taking it to a new level. What he's saying is like, All right, great, let's not only use education within the client like service.00:10:43:17 - 00:11:09:22UnknownThat's how everybody uses it, right? But how do we stay in front of them and continue to add value without being a douchey real estate agent saying, Hey, do you got a referral for me? Hey, do you have a referral for me? Hey, do you have referrals from me? Oh, don't forget, I'm in real estate. Hey, by the way, you get the latest market update, real estate market news, you can't if you guys just talk about real estate and buying and selling and self-serving interest with your database, they're going to tune you out because no one wants to talk about real estate listing in the market to buy it.00:11:10:08 - 00:11:32:00UnknownSorry, HGTV does a good enough job for that, so they're going to watch that real estate content over yours any day. So don't try to compete, but doesn't mean you don't stay in touch. How are you doing that? And like, do you have like a frequencies or touch schedule? So if someone closes on a house, you give them your homeowner handbook, they take the homeowner handbook.00:11:32:00 - 00:11:51:13UnknownAnd that's basically like, okay, here's how you save money, I'm guessing on like solar or this, and here's how you do this and here's how you do that and so on and so on. Yeah, sure. So the people that are going into the closing table, it all depends on how they enter the handbook. So we have the the homeowner handbook is a learning center.00:11:51:13 - 00:12:12:12UnknownIt's a library of videos and it also comes with a CRM, right? So it depends on when they enter the handbook whether if they entered as a first time homebuyer, they're going to they're going to start a campaign. We're going to start a campaign for them. That's going to just talk about homebuying. It's going to talk about being prepared for financing.00:12:12:18 - 00:12:33:19UnknownIt's going to be talk about things you want to think about when when buying a home, you know, then it's going to talk and it's also going to talk about credit score and things like that. Things you need to do to get ready for us. But if you're if you've just closed, like, say you want to my clients and you know, and or say your, you know, say a friend of mine, you know, that everybody gets right.00:12:33:24 - 00:12:54:01UnknownI just you know, I just saw a Facebook, a friend of mine closed on their house and it didn't use me. Right. So, hey, you know, here's a gift, you know, happy closing day and they get the handbook and they're entering as a homeowner, right? So they're going to enter it as, hey, congratulations. They're not going to get homeownership videos because that doesn't apply to them.00:12:54:06 - 00:13:23:06UnknownBut they're going to get is they're going to get is hey, it's summer. Now here's your list of things you need to do to maintain your home for summer. Right? Here's here's a, you know, here's how to, you know, replace, you know, your your your filter in your dishwasher and things like that where honestly, a majority of the homebuyers, you know, first time homebuyers for sure, that are in their low thirties, most of them have no idea that their dishwasher, even has a has a filter in it.00:13:23:06 - 00:13:41:22UnknownRight. It's little things like that that we're educating them a little bit further. So they're Oh wow. I didn't even think about that before. Yeah, that's a value. It's a value added way to stay in touch. It isn't self-serving. This is how content works. You guys like we're talking about content, education, it's all content. Like we have to create something.00:13:41:22 - 00:13:56:16UnknownYou have to create something to stay in touch, to stay present. Because if you're not somebody else's, I mean, that's just how simple it is. That's that's why those stats go like 80% of people would love to work with you again, but they just forget who you exist, who the hell you are. I mean, that's just the reality of it.00:13:57:00 - 00:14:16:09UnknownYou can never build any type of brand without staying in touch with people, whether it's people you're just friends with their family that haven't transacted with you or the ones you have. It doesn't matter. You have to always be marketing wherever you're at. I like to say ABR always be reminding wherever you're at because you never know where the next deal is going to come from.00:14:18:00 - 00:14:44:10UnknownJust think about from this point of view. There's a reason and we're not telling you anything that no one knows. I'm trying to get out of your head is why aren't you doing this? Because there's not a business in the world that doesn't have an email list. Like I just signed up. I went to visit on a vacation last weekend to Huntington Beach with my family, and Hilton's already sent me like four freaking offers or hi, wherever the fuck I was out, they said I got like four vacation things.00:14:44:11 - 00:14:59:00UnknownI'm like, I'm like, close to pulling the trigger on another one. They're staying in touch with me. I could tell what they did at the hotel last week. I'm like, Oh, cool shit. I wish we had went there this weekend. None of it is self-serving. It's just sort of like value added, right? So and that happens with any business.00:14:59:00 - 00:15:19:21UnknownIf you go to Home Depot, they start sending you coupons because a retailer has a version of value to their customer base as a discount. It's all shit. So what's your value base? What are you going to do? What are you going to give as a real estate agent or a lender? Even when you give give them tips, that's your expertize that positions you as the expert.00:15:19:21 - 00:15:46:04UnknownWhat is it like? How often do people stay in touch? I have like I'm all about staying in touch with people. That's my whole thing. So what are you guys doing? What do you see works best of actual. I you know I think this day and age actual value right it's less about how often unless somebody raised their hand and said, hey, I want to buy right now and then, you know, then you kick it into high gear and trying to stay in touch with somebody.00:15:46:04 - 00:16:13:05UnknownBut I think it's less about how often and how much value you're delivering. Like there's there's only there's only so many checking cash story recipes or happy girl cheese day, you know, kind of emails that you can send out. Like they don't nobody cares about that. But when you send something of value that they've even if they only read it for 15 seconds, you know, they, they decided they stopped what they were doing in their day to read what, what you provided.00:16:13:07 - 00:16:44:05UnknownRight. And I think it's value whether it's whether, you know, twice a week, once a month, I think that matters less. And in the buying cycle, especially the first time homebuyer, you're buying cycles 12, 24 months. Right. It's just that most agents and loan officers don't realize that because we tend to enter the buying cycle on that last 10%, you know, when they're when they're one or two months away and they've been learning for for 12 to 16 months already.00:16:45:06 - 00:17:03:09UnknownSo it's something then that we don't really think about. And honestly, most people are only equipped to provide the value that, you know, that they're equipped of about it. So if I'm a loan officer, I've got financing videos, or if I'm a real estate agent, I've got, you know, things you can do to buy a home videos, right?00:17:03:09 - 00:17:24:07UnknownBut if you team up like we've done here with the handbook and have experts from every sector educating on it, then then you can focus on what you do best and let the other experts that you've partnered with focus on what they do best. And I think it's I think the answer is value for sure. Yeah. That the other option is entertainment.00:17:24:07 - 00:17:38:14UnknownIf you can make people laugh, but reality is most aren't that funny. So that's a that unless you're you know, you've got to have or entertaining content. That's where video comes in and then you've got to get editors and all that stuff. So you got to get one or get a couple other mortgage people all over the country.00:17:38:14 - 00:17:56:17UnknownAnd I can promise you most of us are funny. So there's different categories of content or call it learning centers. I'll give you guys another example. I remember my old website. I know what happened with it, but my server's down. But I had a concept. It was just nothing. But it was a homeowner handbook as a freaking encyclopedia, Chicago real estate.00:17:57:07 - 00:18:15:16UnknownAnd I would just blog and write and write, but I would always repurpose. So I had a page on the site How to sell your house without a realtor. And that whole page was like a course on how to sell your house without a real estate agent. I gave them the local Chicago Association realtor contracts. I gave them the disclosures, I gave them my inspector.00:18:16:12 - 00:18:35:04UnknownI gave them everything to do the job without them, even my photographer, my videographer. And I gave him my whole checklist of everything. We do it marketing wise. So the reason for that is that I'm not scared to share everything and anything. Like I'll share all content. That's my share. I'll give you everything because I know that you need me to fulfill some of it.00:18:35:04 - 00:18:50:17UnknownThat's always been my sales strategy. So when I have a for sale by owner, what would I do? Do you think they want to talk to a real estate agent? Mark No. Yeah, that's why they're for sale by owner, bro. They fucking hate you. They hate you guys. All right, so. But yeah, I would try for some of that.00:18:50:17 - 00:19:08:03UnknownOh, that's fantastic. You know what? I just put a I basically have a gun for sale by owner course on my website. I'm happy to share with you to give you the contracts and all this stuff. I'm going to send it to you and we hang up. And the only thing I want to ask is that if you do have to hire somebody, I would love, you know that to be me or at least give me a shot.00:19:08:03 - 00:19:23:01UnknownBut at the same time, if you're going to sell your house without a realtor, I'd love be the person to show you how. And boom, they're like, What the fuck you say? And then you just you completely mind fuck them because you got to go backwards with it, right? And then they're like, Whoa, so you're not trying to sell me?00:19:23:01 - 00:19:39:16UnknownYou're trying to help me. I can't tell you how many times that works because if you if you really break it down, everyone assumes I'm going to do this, but I do the opposite. And then, boom, I have them. That was my hooker, my attention getter. But I at least had an excuse to stay in touch. I used to argue that people like I'd never would go.00:19:39:18 - 00:20:07:02UnknownWhy would you go after for sale by owner for the listing instead? I'd go after them to buy their next house. And then you should. If you build a relationship that angle, get the listing in a much easier way because you're not coming at it as self-serving interest. So think outside the box you guys like. And the other thing too is that when people have a very good experience with you, they refer you and no differently than you refer restaurant.00:20:07:02 - 00:20:27:24UnknownYou beat that or whatever it is. If they have a shitty experience with you, they don't refer you. They detract business from you because they tell their friends about how bad you are. That happens all the time. What kind of categories of content or would you call it learning centers? Do you see you've named a couple first time homebuyer, so maybe you missed.00:20:28:01 - 00:20:52:02UnknownWe have we have homebuying. We have homebuying which which right now is financing and real estate side income is they work they work together so well that we had a hard time separating that. But we have credit score. We are, I think, most of the most popular part of credit score is we have a seven part video series on the seven misconceptions of credit.00:20:52:10 - 00:21:16:00UnknownRight and home maintenance is the is is in the top three right. And that's that's after you already own the home. These are things you need to know about, you know, yada, yada. We talk about home inspections. Home inspections is one of those things my brother and a co-founder of of the him but is a home inspector and one thing and my dad's a home inspector.00:21:16:00 - 00:21:36:13UnknownSo like like I know I know how important home inspections are. And I think that a lot of people go into the transaction not understanding, you know, anything at all about what that home inspection supposed to do other than they were told by their real estate agent, you need a home inspection, right? You need to get a homosexual.00:21:36:14 - 00:22:03:24UnknownThis kind of breaks down. These are things that you should expect from your home and home inspector. These are things you should expect. The day of this is how to read a report. Right. This is I think the most important thing is this is what you should take away from the report. Right. And these are you know, these are all things that I think if if your client was more educated about the home inspection process, I think it makes all I think it makes the whole process less stressful, right?00:22:03:24 - 00:22:26:22UnknownYeah. Because I mean, anything anything that you do, you're more you're more stressed about things you don't know that are approaching than things you are a little more educated on that are approaching. Right. I mean, if you take a if you take an hour drive to someplace, you've never been that out. That drive there seems like three times longer than that.00:22:26:22 - 00:22:49:02UnknownOur drive back, because you're you're going over a road that you've already traveled now and there's less of the in your mind going, okay, what's going to happen next? What, you know, where am I going? And unfortunately, that's where that's where a lot of home buyers and that's how a lot of homebuyers navigate the homebuying process. And they're like, where am I going?00:22:49:02 - 00:23:16:02UnknownYou know, we also have an insurance module where it just kind of breaks down. It kind of breaks down homeowner's insurance. We're going to expand that a little bit more. But obviously, that's what's important in the homebuying process. And and a refinance process or homeownership process. So just knowing honestly, I don't know a ton I didn't know a ton about my first homeowner's insurance policy.00:23:16:02 - 00:23:43:10UnknownRight. It just so much numbers your coverage you're covered for $500,000 of this, you know, $300,000 of this. But you don't know what any of that's going to. And this kind of helps break that down so that, you know, to go to your agent and ask the right questions that I think a lot of times during the process, people just go for the lowest quote always and then they find out like we had in Nashville, we had tornadoes come through.00:23:43:10 - 00:24:07:19UnknownThey had I don't know, is it five or six years ago? And it just leveled leveled sections of a town called Mount Juliet. And we had people I had a few clients that bought a house, had their house completely, completely leveled. Two different clients. One had the house completely rebuilt. That ended up being worth $150,000 more than the house that they bought.00:24:08:04 - 00:24:33:02UnknownAnd another one barely was able. They had to come out of pocket, and it was a struggle for them to even begin rebuilding that house. And there was it was the same storm, two different insurance companies and two different insurance policies. It has a completely different experience because one was prepared and one wasn't. Yeah. Yep. And so that's basically the gist.00:24:33:06 - 00:24:54:21UnknownWe have a title module as well. The title module is just mainly to say what is title insurance? Because I bet 80% of the people listening to your podcast right now, even though they're loan officers and real estate agents, really have no clue what title insurance is. So it goes through that, Hey, what's the role of the title company?00:24:54:21 - 00:25:13:08UnknownWhat are they going to do? What do you expect when you when you when you hear from them and and things like that? Some of these modules, people aren't even going to open, right. Unless they're really dedicated to knowing everything about the process. Right. But the fact that it's there is the important aspect of things in my opinion.00:25:13:18 - 00:25:31:23UnknownWell, yeah, it's most and no one will remember. Like even when they see it, they'll just remember that you have it. So it's like if you have two different people and you have one person who has all of this, like collateral call it, and one person that just shows up and they have like a their outfit on and a good smile and you walk away and they give it to Bolton.00:25:31:23 - 00:25:51:02UnknownIt's about making that impression. So, yes, 100%. It's about the and the consumer experience and then the educating them on the process. But the touch points along the way are what are very key because I'm I think the whole damn business is about experience, consumer experience, because those are all selling the same shit, like everyone has the same products and services.00:25:51:12 - 00:26:10:13UnknownThe only difference between all of us is, okay, how is that person delivering those products and services right now? That's why we have owner advocate, for example, we have multiple seller options where we're talking a lot on the buy side. But, you know, we have a process we call owner advocate and on the sell side of that, we give them six or seven different ways to sell their properties.00:26:10:24 - 00:26:29:23UnknownSo very same concept just through education and all that is how we're converting and attracting seller leads. So but here's the point, though. This is your opportune idea to do something different if you don't have your own. Like if you don't have content that shows people you're the expert, then are you really the expert? As my whole combatant?00:26:29:23 - 00:26:51:12UnknownAnd then why don't you have that content? We used to do these. We're not doing them anymore. But there's many people you could hire or services like Marks has a service can that you guys can utilize with the homeowner handbook. But there's no excuse to not have this shit. Like these are basic sales tools you're not having. Your education is like a restaurant, not having a recipe that they cook every single day.00:26:51:19 - 00:27:16:07UnknownSame damn thing. Mark, any closing thoughts on here? And we'll get this wrapped up. Yeah, a few one. I'll take a I guess I'll take a page out of your I'll take a page out of your handbook and you know, say that, you know, whenever you're talking about your sphere of influence and you're talking about like 10% of people that you know are going to move this year.00:27:16:14 - 00:27:42:22UnknownRight. And the important thing is 10% of the people that they know that your friends know are going to move this year. Right. So it's all about controlling that sphere of influence. Don't if you put yourself where you're just self-serving. Right. And you're just salesy, salesy sales that nobody wants to refer to that it. Right. Because when when it's when it's friend, a friend, they want to help, right?00:27:42:22 - 00:28:05:05UnknownThey want to lead with a helping hand. So friend a, you know, your friend Cody wants to help his friend John buy a house or wants to help, but he didn't. But Cody doesn't know anything about home buying, but he's. He's in the homeowner handbook, so you can say, Hey, let me share this with you and I'll give you a bunch of education that will help you at least, you know, start to navigate what you're looking for.00:28:05:07 - 00:28:26:19UnknownRight? That's something that a friend would love to share with another friend and help get you down that path we offer for those. There's a lot of people in our industry that are afraid of a video camera. I shouldn't say afraid. They just don't want to do it. That's not part of that's not they haven't they haven't devoted that part to their business plan.00:28:26:19 - 00:28:50:08UnknownThat's that's fine. We've got that solution for you where you can just leverage our videos. We also have a solution where you're creating your own content, you're putting your own content into your own learning center where you can take when you want. You can take control of that process, and instead of them listening to somebody else talk, they're listening to you talk and making you more of an authority.00:28:51:00 - 00:29:11:14UnknownBut again, if that's not that's not up your alley. If you're not comfortable on camera, use our videos. And then the CRM that's attached to the handbook. Let the CRM that CRM is coming from you. Right? Those emails are coming from you. Those texts are coming from you. And all of that value is going to have is going to have you branded on it.00:29:11:18 - 00:29:45:02UnknownYou're branded on the learning center. It'd be homeowner dash handbook you're slash you know dot com slash your name handbook and your picture on it so this is something for everybody and it's something to just to get education out there because the last thing you want your future prospect doing is being out there on Google Learning most mostly wrong information from sources that are going to take their information and sell them out.00:29:45:02 - 00:30:10:17UnknownBut why don't you tell them if you guys are interested in learning more about Homeowner Handbook, tell them what the website was just so they can find out. Yeah, for sure. We actually have a special site just for you. It's homeowner dash handbook dot com slash sweet assist where you go. If you go there if you go there the landing page, it'll tell you.00:30:10:17 - 00:30:30:16UnknownIt will remind you what the code is. But you get 50% off if you use the code suite, assist you fit yourself the starter package and you get 10% off the pro package. And if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to reach out. Love it, folks. Take this opportunity to look in working on your business. What can you do to stand out?00:30:31:00 - 00:30:55:20UnknownOut compete up brand OutServe and just be different? That's what's going to work in this market. And although things might be a little bit slower now, things aren't dead and people are still going to move no matter what. So whenever things are moving again, then the last one standing are the ones who always reap the benefits. So I've seen this happen many, many times and I'm going to make a wild prediction and I'm going to say it's going to happen again.00:30:56:05 - 00:31:18:16UnknownSo appreciate you guys. Just another absolute reality marketing do podcast. We will see you guys next week and visit us at Sweet Assist with assist dot com. We'll see you guys by peace. Thank you for watching. Another episode of the Real Estate Marketing Do Podcast. If you need help with video or finding out what your brand is. Visit our website at WW W dot real estate marketing do dot com.00:31:18:19 - 00:31:48:03UnknownWe make branding and video content creation simple and do everything for you. So if you have any additional questions, visit the site, download the training and then schedule time to speak with the dude and get you rolling in your local marketplace. Thanks for watching another episode of the podcast. We'll see you next time.

CLIQUE AQUI⁠⁠⁠ E ACOMPANHE ESTE EPISÓDIO GRAVADO AO VIVO NO YOUTUBE. // ⁠⁠⁠SEJA NOSSO APOIADOR⁠⁠⁠: – Sorteios exclusivos, seu nome citado nos programas, acesso ao nosso grupo secreto do Discord pra falar com a gente por vídeo e assistir filmes com nois! http://moidacast.com.br // ⁠⁠⁠ANUNCIE NO MOÍDACAST⁠⁠⁠: carnemoidacast@gmail.com ///////////////////////////////////////// // PROGRAMAÇÃO DO #MOÍDACAST 2023: – Segunda-Feira ⁠⁠⁠AO VIVO⁠⁠⁠ às 19:30: MOÍDANEWS - Seu jornal semanal com todas notícias da semana e muito compromisso com a desinformação. – Quarta-Feira ⁠⁠⁠AO VIVO⁠⁠⁠ às 19:30: MOÍDACAST - O podcast mais quinta série da internet, agora ao vivo, com a turma do fundão falando suas barbaridades sobre os mais diversos assuntos. – Sexta-Feira ⁠⁠⁠AO VIVO ⁠⁠⁠às 19:30: SEXTOU XABLAU - Lives aleatórias, críticas descontrutivas de filmes, reacts e qualquer ideia que surgir na cabeça ///////////////////////////////////////// // NOSSAS REDES SOCIAIS: – ⁠⁠⁠Site Oficial⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Twitch⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠ // OS ESPECIALISTAS EM P0RR4 NENHUMA: – ⁠⁠⁠Klaus Aires⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Kleber Tanide⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Letícia Godoy⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Rafa Longhini⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Silas Ravani⁠⁠   EQUIPE: // CAPAS: – ⁠⁠Sketch1000grau⁠⁠ // EDIÇÃO: – ⁠⁠Silas Ravani⁠See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

CLIQUE AQUI⁠⁠⁠ E ACOMPANHE ESTE EPISÓDIO GRAVADO AO VIVO NO YOUTUBE. // ⁠⁠⁠SEJA NOSSO APOIADOR⁠⁠⁠: – Sorteios exclusivos, seu nome citado nos programas, acesso ao nosso grupo secreto do Discord pra falar com a gente por vídeo e assistir filmes com nois! http://moidacast.com.br // ⁠⁠⁠ANUNCIE NO MOÍDACAST⁠⁠⁠: carnemoidacast@gmail.com ///////////////////////////////////////// // PROGRAMAÇÃO DO #MOÍDACAST 2023: – Segunda-Feira ⁠⁠⁠AO VIVO⁠⁠⁠ às 19:30: MOÍDANEWS - Seu jornal semanal com todas notícias da semana e muito compromisso com a desinformação. – Quarta-Feira ⁠⁠⁠AO VIVO⁠⁠⁠ às 19:30: MOÍDACAST - O podcast mais quinta série da internet, agora ao vivo, com a turma do fundão falando suas barbaridades sobre os mais diversos assuntos. – Sexta-Feira ⁠⁠⁠AO VIVO ⁠⁠⁠às 19:30: SEXTOU XABLAU - Lives aleatórias, críticas descontrutivas de filmes, reacts e qualquer ideia que surgir na cabeça ///////////////////////////////////////// // NOSSAS REDES SOCIAIS: – ⁠⁠⁠Site Oficial⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Twitch⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠ // OS ESPECIALISTAS EM P0RR4 NENHUMA: – ⁠⁠⁠Klaus Aires⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Kleber Tanide⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Letícia Godoy⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Rafa Longhini⁠⁠⁠ – ⁠⁠⁠Silas Ravani⁠⁠   EQUIPE: // CAPAS: – ⁠⁠Sketch1000grau⁠⁠ // EDIÇÃO: – ⁠⁠Silas Ravani⁠See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

https://linktr.ee/nordicanimism https://shop.nordicanimism.com/shop/9-books-and-calendars/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E21 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we are excited to have Rune Hjarnø with us who is a thinker and podcaster and pagan animist Norse Animist coming to us from Scandinavia. So welcome Ro Rune: Thank you very much. Super happy to be here. Mark: Rune was suggested to us by one of our listeners who had been listening Toro's work and said that we could have a very interesting conversation. So we are here to have a very interesting conversation. Rune: Totally. Yucca: Yeah. Thank you for coming on. I'm really excited. So. Rune: thanks for having me. It's gonna be super interesting. Yucca: Yeah, do you wanna go ahead and start by just, you know, letting our listeners know a little bit about who you are and what your background and interests are? Rune: Yeah, let me, let me try yeah. My name is Rune I'm a Danish anthropologist of religion. And I, what I'm trying to do on my general platform, which is called Nordic Animism is that I'm trying to use indigenous knowledge scholarship and new animist thinking to look at our own cultural heritage as Euro ascendants because there's this weird assumption in our time that These are ways of thinking about our own culture that are only available if you belong to an indigenous colonized groups. And that assumption is there seemingly in popular culture and in scholarship and, and in all kinds of ways, in spite of the fact that what a lot of indigenous peoples are actually doing is that they're encouraging us as majority populations to start thinking like this about ourselves. But it's a difficult, for a number of reasons to do with cultural politics. It's a diff difficult step to take. So a lot of, not a lot of people are doing it. It's spite of the fact that indigenous knowledge is becoming a big thing. Anyway, so yeah. So that's basically what I'm doing. And I also feel that when I'm doing that I'm, I'm being brought through dealing with a lot of these problems of cultural politics because when you. When you look at, for instance, our culture as euron and people, and also the ways that our traditional culture has been sometimes co-opted then you are necessarily faced with issues such as well, racism, whiteness, the construction of whiteness, the rejection of animism actually as a part of construction of whiteness and these sort of things. So, and therefore it becomes a very, I think a very intersect intersectional work that is basically becomes a form of, of decolonizing. So yeah, and I'm then trying to do this to sort of bring this into popular spaces because one thing is that, you know, I can sit online and I can go blah, blah, blah in my highbrow, you know, academic language and nobody's gonna understand the stand a bloody thing, but what what actually. Or to come out of something like this is popular culture stuff that can be communicated to real people. Stuff that that can also attract actually real people. So, I've launched symbolism of totemic kinship with the world around us. I've written a book about the, the turning of the seasons and I've, yeah. Different, different projects like that. And then I'm continuously communicating on my channel. Yeah. Did that kind of sum it up or did I speak too lo too long? Yucca: No, that's great. And I have to say, I'm so excited to hear you talking about indigenous European cultures because so often the ideas that, that there isn't. And that that's the, that European is the opposite of indigenous, rather than seeing that there's indigenous all over the world, not just from specific groups. And I think that that's really valuable that you're bringing this to light. Rune: Thanks and I, I'll just add one little. Have it at there. And that is that when I'm talking about traditional European culture, I actually don't use the word indigenous. And the reason is that when we talk about indigenous peoples, we mostly talk, or we are generally talking about people who have been exposed to colonialism. That means that if you are in Wyoming and there's a group of Shoshone living there, you know, then when they can then the word indigenous, that to them, that's also a legal category. That it, it means access to fishing rights and land rights and hunting and access to funding, to first language teaching and all these kind of things that we don't need as majority populations. So what, so what I'm basically. This is just, I'm, I'm just saying this as, because this is an important little addition that, that is important to not actually when we talk about indigenous knowledge I mean, and I give you at some level you could call it indigenous knowledge, traditional knowledge, and in majority traditional knowledge and indigenous knowledge are basically the same kinds of knowledge, but the word indigenous is just a little bit touchy. And it's touchy for the indigenous people. So it's important to sort of, move around it a little bit. But like, I, I, I definitely get you a sentiment. We need to be able to speak about our our own heritage in exactly the same, or with those categories that, you know, authors like Robin Kimara and these kind of people are using to understand their culture. Mark: Yes. Yes. I, I think the, the first thing that strikes me as, as you speak is that we are definitely on the same page from a value standpoint. You know, we're, we're very, very adamant about the need for decolonization and the the importance of indigenous and traditional understandings of the nature of the world of development, of reciprocity in our ecological relationships, all of those kinds of values. So, I, I think maybe that's a good place to start from. Our work has been in building community around a science rooted. Understanding of the nature of the world, but a transformation of the value system that informs the way society operates. And it sounds like at least the transformation part of it is very similar ru to what you, you are focusing on. Rune: Totally. And I think I would probably also say the science routing. I'm, I'm not a natural scientist. I'm, I'm, More of a historical religion, anthropologist type. But but I don't perceive and this may be where we differ, I'm not sure, but I don't perceive necessarily a contradiction between, for instance religious languages or animist mythologies, a way of understanding the world and a scientific way of understanding the world. If you look at how an animist mythology, for instance, is typically structured, then you'd find that there are, it's. It's not one package, it's not one worldview that some people kind of buy into. And then to kind of adopt that whole thing as if they're in installing a new operative system on a computer. It's more like a, a, a jumbled up toolbox with a lot of kind of stuff lying in it. And, and then you can use it in different ways and it's kind of combined in different ways for different purposes. And some of these different tools can be contradictory and they can be radically contradict, contradictory. So the same, for instance, animist way of talking about, say, deities can be contradictory from one ritual situation to the next. And this also count, this counts on many levels in religious practices. So if you have a scien, a scientific perception of the world, then in a sense that's also just one toolbox. So if you move out of the, the, the monolithic. Ways of understanding the world that have characterized Abrahamic traditions particularly Christianity where, you know, there's ki there's kind of one worldview and you have to buy into that if, if you, when, when, and I think that would be a pagan step to move out of that. And then science just is just this incredibly beautiful, powerful, deep knowledge system, which in itself is like a web of, of, of roots that, that come from all kinds of different places in the world and kind of come together in, in Occidental science. And then, then that, that does not necessarily need to be in any conflict with creating tali talismans and seagulls and stuff like that, for instance. Yucca: Absolutely. Yeah. Mark: and we do all that stuff. Rune: Yeah. Mark: yeah. And I mean, we understand it as influencing ourselves at a psychological level and transforming our perspective on the world. We've been talking about animism and throwing the word around a lot, and I think it might be valuable for us to visit what we mean by that. I just wrote a blog post this week about naturalistic animism, and I think that one of the things about the, the traditional western colonizers view of animism is that it is a supernatural idea that there, that a rock has a soul in it. And I think that's a very dualistic, very Christian informed way of understanding animism. I see animism as being about what are, what is my relationship with the rock? Do I relate to the rock as a person or do I relate to the rock as an inanimate thing that I can exploit? And that's, that's kind of my take on, on a naturalistic approach to animism. What, what do you think animism is and how does it Rune: I agree and with some of what you say, but not all of it. I think the relationship is absolutely foundational to animism and in a sense, I think that the relating with the rock is more foundational than if there is any sort of faith or belief in whatever figure that lives inside the rock. Like, be and, and that's because the relationship is important. So if you, if you look at how, for instance, new animist theory and, and also the philosophers who are doing panist thinking and all these things. When, when you look at these ways of thinking, then being becomes predicated on relating, I, I relate where, where Decart, the kind of quintessential modernist thinker would say, I think therefore I am. So the world is enclosed in the human thinking space. The, the animist position would, would be, I relate or we relate, therefore we are, and that means that, so that, but, but if, if I should tie that to what you say with supernatural, then in a sense it's, it's extremely sort of, mundane. Like we are we are in a relation right now and we're trying to understand each other and we are sitting in different continents and, you know, we, we have different positions and it's interesting and blah, blah, blah, that defined, but there's also an exchange of value between us. You have a podcast, I'm coming on your podcast. Perhaps some of my followers would go over there and the other way around. And so there's an exchange going on in that, in the relation that we are in right now, our subjectivities are defined in that, in this encounter that we are in now, our subjectivities are defined by that, right? So the con the current perception of a lot of anthropological scholarship would be that, that this relation is inhabited by subjectivity. So subjectivity is not only inside our minds or inside our brains, it's actually in our relation. Now, that means that when the inu eat are relating with the C, which is an all life defining factor in Inuit life, then their relation with the sea is inhabited by subjectivity. That sub subjectivity, that inhabits, that relating, that is the, the, the sea mother sna, the inwar, they would call it the inwar, the relational subjectivity of the sea. So, and whether that should be called supernatural or not, I'm not really sure, but like. I'm not, actually, I'm not really sure about the word supernatural, if it's because it, it, I think it has a heavy, heavy baggage somehow. But an Inuit shaman can actually interact with Sedna, the sea mother, and thereby engage that subjectivity that inhabits the the relation between a group of Inuit and the sea. And that's the same with a stone or with, if, if you have a farmstead in Northern Europe 200 years ago, the stone could be kind of a relational hub for the way that the people in that farm state relates to their land. So it becomes inhabited by, I'm not sure what the word would be in English, but these sort of g like or elf like beings that would typically work as a patron spirit protecting specific farm. Or ensuring basically the positive and mutually giving reciprocal relating between that group of people and the agrarian life sustenance that they are living with and living from. Yucca: So that that spirit would be the relationship itself. Am I understanding correctly? Rune: Yeah. Or the subjective, the the subject, the subjective relationship. Yeah. So, and this is sometimes called the individual. So we are individuals from a moderna's perspective that there's an inside us with. But if you take away the, the, the in Yucca: Mm-hmm. Rune: then we are evi right now because we are producing relating with each other from Yucca: delightful word. Rune: Yeah, it's a lovely word, isn't it?  Yucca: that. Rune: And. Mark: Yeah. Rune: And then what many animists would would say, or animist thinkers would say that that that divi is a central purpose of religion, basically. And that it individuates a relation. So if you have a Santa Priestess who's being possessed by the storm, gods ysa and she's dancing around, then that human being is dividing ysa in a number of ways. One of them is portraying Younga. People see younga in front of their eyes dancing. Another part of the dividuation is that she's initiated, she's crowned as a San Priestess, so, so there's deep mystical individuations that are connected with that and that whole thing. But it's basically about producing. Relating and, and ch challenging that subjective relating into the world. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rune: that make sense? Am I, Mark: it. It, oh, it absolutely does. Yeah. It, it, it absolutely makes sense. And that this, this focus on, on the relationship, as I said, I think is very core to the at least to my idea of animism. And so the, the question about the reality of the, the gnome elf figure doesn't really even enter into it. It's, it's not, you know, because this is all subjectivity. It objectivity is not, is is not a part of that model. It's all about what do you see? What do you think about it, and how do you feel in relation to it? Rune: Yeah. Something like that. I would say that the reality or the what, what, you know, post-Christian, it's called the belief in the el that that is it's secondary to the relation. Like if, if you, if you say you have a shamanic perception and you could and you, you bring yourself into a trance and you speak to the elf and you ask the elf so what would you prefer the most? Would you prefer that I cultivate an abstract transcend belief in your transcendent existence? Or would you prefer a ball of porridge? The, the elf is gonna prefer the ball of porridge because that is act that is an actual exchange of of material. And the what, what you could almost call the revelation of that relationship is. That is core, I think, to producing an animist way of being in the world. So that's not only you giving the ball of porridge to the stone that is perhaps inhabited by a stone ina or an elf or what we can call it. But it's also then perceiving the gift being given back from the world now that then you are in a reciprocal relationship with the world around us. Mark: Yeah, and, and it's that, you know, a as you say, as with Robin Wall Kemmerer and you know, writers like that, it's that reciprocity that is so important the. And, and the hardest, I think for us, as, you know, modern Westerners to get our minds around because we are taught as Christianity teaches that the world is essentially inanimate and it's a pile of resources here for us to mine. And that is the diametric opposite of what we're talking about here. Rune: Exactly. Mark: you know, the, the idea that, that we can't just dig a hole in the ground and take minerals out and then leave the hole is completely foreign to the way capitalism works. Rune: exactly. Exactly. And. If you look at how traditional knowledge and tales and traditional knowledge and folklore and the like they actually express and analyze the rupture of these relationships in euros and populations. So, and you see this in a, like, in a wide kind of array of tales, like the most monumental in northern Europe is the Ragner rock, which is the, basically the collapse of the relational cosmos in this kind of e eco cosmos, social complete crashing. Now, some of the scholars who have been working on the Ragnar Rock, they say that this. Myth may have occurred or may have, may have been inspired by the experience of climate change in Northern Europe in the, the mid sixth century. And often when people are relating mythology to natural history events, you should always be a little bit cautious because sometimes it's just like weird, oh shit. But but this exact example the, the emergence of this myth and this event, they're actually historically very close to each other. It's a couple of hundred years, and the event was cataclysmic. It ba in Scandinavia populations collapsed. And there would've been complete social breakdown. So it was a very, very violent event. And what happened was basically that it was a global cooling that lasted I think four or five years and. In Northern Europe, that global, global cooling just meant that summer didn't come for a, a, a, a short period for, for a couple of years. And if you're living in an agrarian subsistence, agrarian community, then that just means that everybody's gonna die. And which is what you see that happened in some areas of Scandinavia. So, so anyway, so, so, when you look at the Ragnarok myth, what you see is that it's, it's very much a myth about loss of connectivity. So the main spark of the myth is a, a divine FRA side. There's God brothers who are killing each other. And then what happens is that the relations between the guards, kind of the forces of order and social coherence and the yna, the giants, the. Forces of nature who are related in all these problematic and crazy and fertile ways, and Nordic mythology, that relation crashes completely. And then they start behaving like Christian angels and demons and basically going into like the state of cosmic total war. So that's perhaps the most iconic tale of losing animist kinship. But you find them by all the way down to today. You see that fairy tales and different stories are sort of this struggling, but also people's experiences. Some farmer, you know, walking up a home from his fields and then he meets a little, meet a little group of elves and they're leaving. So he asked them, why are you leaving? And he, they say, there's too much noise here and too many church bells, so we are moving to Norway. Something like that, you know? And and that is of course a traditional knowledge perspective of basically ruptured relation because this relational subjectivity, which are these Ls that are, that is sub subjectivity, inhabiting human being, human relating with the land, that when that is torn, then that can be experienced as the elves packing, packing their bags and, Mark: Or, or as the magic going away, Rune: Yeah. Mark: which is another, you know, repeated trope in many, many stories about how there used to be magic. You know, we, we used to have, you know, this relationship, right? And now it's drained away, it's gone. And many of those stories are actually specific about Christianity driving the magic away, Rune: Yes. Yes. There, there there's a tension. There's a tension. Like I, I'm not, I'm, I'm generally, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to not, you know, go into this sort of Christianity bashing and all those  Mark: Uhhuh.  Rune: but but there is a tension. The, there's a tension between and sometimes it's, it is pretty intense, like, churches in the landscape in Northern Europe, the, if they're big stones lying in the landscape, then typically people, local people would say it was trolls who were throwing the stones at the churches and all when they were building the churches. So there's almost like a conflict between the, the churches and the, and the landscape itself. Mark: Hmm. Hmm. Yucca: So one of the expressions that I've heard you use a few times is new animism. So how does new animism differ from our understanding of some of the traditional forms? Or what does that mean when you're speaking about new animism? Rune: animism that is a little bit of. It's a scholarship position more than it's a kind of a religious position out in the world. May, but things are also related. But when, when I say new animism, it's because anim, like animism was invented by actually the guy who invented anthropology and cultural scholarship. A guy called Edward Burnett Tyler, who was this sort of Victorian British armchair scholar. And he. Invented cultural evolutionism in which people are first living in these barbers, state of superstition, where they are animist, infantile animists. And, and, and, and that was, that was, that was what he thought of animism. And then you then he kind of developed how humans would develop on gradually improving stages until they became almost like, Victorian, England English people of his own time. Exactly, exactly. That, that was a paradigm for, for the end of history. So, so, so that was, and, and at that point, the idea of animism was just that everything is sort of animate. However up through the 20th century there was the, the, the most progressive anthropologists were the American School of Anthropology, who were at a very early point starting to be permissive to other other cultures, cultural realities and saying, okay, so there are different cultural realities and perhaps they're equally good. And there was a guy named, oh shit, I forgot his name right now. Oh damn. Really important guy whose name I should be able to remember at any given point of time who went and, and learned from the the Jiwei Irving, hallow Hallowell was his name. Yucca: Okay. Rune: So he went and and started learning the philosophy of jiwei indigenous Americans in, in the Great Lake areas. I think he went into Canada a little bit. And he, I think he was the first who was kind of saying, well, he was looking, he was looking at their, their language and saying that they have different grammatical categories and some of these categories indicate animated personal beings. And some of them are like what we talk about. If I talk about this book, then the word book is in, in English is, is just an it, you know. And he noticed that what was called animate and inanimate by the Ojibwe was different. So Stones, for instance, and thunder and number of different things were adamant to the Ojibwe. And he started developing this language where he was like, okay, so these are people, they have a different philosophy about what, where, where there's personhood and where there isn't. So from that came. New animist thinking, which is kind of relieved from or dealing with the this bigoted evolutionist heritage of seeing animist as a animism, as as something inferior. And today, the, this has then become the whole position where where the, the, the understanding of what animism is and how it works is, is then updated. For instance, animism is incredibly complex. It's not infantile at all, and it's certainly not primitive. It's many societies that have animist knowledge systems in them. not something necessarily that children practice, it's something that elders practice. It's something that it takes lifespans to, to understand that at, at a, at a very high level. So, so, so yeah. So that's sort of what's in, in new animism. Yucca: Mm. Thank you. Mark: Thank you for explaining that. Yeah, that's good. So, you mentioned before we started recording that that you sort of take issue with the atheism of our movement or that you have questions about it or whatever that is. So I thought that I would raise that topic and we could discuss it. Rune: I've been sort of thinking about it, kind of atheism. Atheism. No, I, it, it ki I think my, sort of, my, my question. Kind of springs from the whole idea of decolonizing if we have what is called the modern epistemology, like the, the epistemology is the perception, how we perceive the world. Then the modern fundamental to the modern epistemology would be a seclusion between human subjectivity and personhood. An agency which is inside our skulls, and then the, the dead outside. And I can't help seeing an and i atheism as perhaps related to that and that therefore co like actual actually practicing a a decolonizing would be. To say, okay. But subjectivity and agency is not only inside humans goals, it's also, it is something that inhabits the world in a, in a wider in a wider sense. It's something that inhabits our interactions and perceptions in a much wider sense. And yeah, I just had, I just had tr part of my, my problem was to that I have, I have tr, I have trouble reconciling that with, with an, with an atheist position. Mark: Hmm. Yucca: I can certainly say that for my part, my perception of the outside world, I. Is, I don't think that that necessarily reflects my idea that there's this dead outside world, the living me, but rather seeing self as part of this larger system. I'm coming from the perspective of, of an ecologist looking at, you know, my body is an ecosystem that is an open system and things are coming in and going out. I don't see the need to have a, a, a deity or a God or a conscious spirit that needs to be there for me to be part of a, of a living vibrant world. Rune: Makes a lot of sense. Mark: Yeah, that's well said. I, I feel very much the same. Yeah, because yeah, that hard line between the, the inner living world and the outer dead world is definitely not something that I embrace at all. To me it's all living. Right. But because, but just because it's living doesn't necessarily mean that it's conscious or that it's animated by something that one could actually at some point identify and measure. You were talking about toolkits before and I think that it's, it's y part of what we do as Ethiopia, pagans, and, and naturalistic pagans is we understand that in the context of the symbolic world, we suspend whatever disbelief we might have in, in the, the literal reality of supernatural phenomena in order to have a symbolic, metaphorical, psychological, emotional, impactful experience. And that is what brings me into deep relation with the rest of the world. Did that make Rune: Cool. Yes, it does. However, when you are focusing on psychology, then psychology is a space that is characterized by being. Inside human human minds and, and what I would, I don't know fear or my, I think my, my question would then be, if it's psychology, I, you then actually extending that perception of, of personhood to the world, or, I does. Because like when you speak to a lot of, say, scholars today, often psychologies would, or psychology would be a language where, for instance, mythology can be given a space. But that actually maintains the, the the the enclosure. Try to compare this with. With I had this debate with, with a friend of mine who also he was criticizing the literalist idea of mythology. So he was saying, he was talking about, I, I believe Irish mythology, and he was saying, but who, who, who would believe such an grotesque idea as if Ireland were literally plowed with the, the fertility guard dog does penis in a right. And yeah, innocent. But what if you, if we think about relation, if we take relationships as our, our fundamental way of thinking about these things then, and we understand if we understand the plow that the farmer is using when he's plowing his land as imminent with. Dha. See then, then when, when it's imminence, if we understand the the materiality of the plow as n n not as culturally imbued with, but in the materiality, DDA is there right then, then we have actually, then we have crossed out of the modern paradigm and into a this enchanted perception of the world. And I think we, like, I think that is the step, the, that, that's where it becomes real in a sense. And, and there, there, there's a number of co contemporary philosophers and, and, and thinkers who make that, that, that enchanting possible. Bruno Laur the sometimes they call it the ontological turn thinking or the Cambridge School, and they're so difficult to read that it's almost, it's almost impossible to understand what they're saying, but which, which is part of a I think it's, I think it's part of a safeguarding strategy because if you wanna say that ELs and g nos are real, then it's, it's, it's then, you know, scholars are gonna, you know, it's much, much better to say, well, relational ontologies are possible on the basis of you know, concatenated hops of individual re networks or something like that. You know, then people get, get busy nodding and looking like they are trying to look like they look clever, right? But but the idea of imminence that, for instance that that objects act chairs, Invite us to sit on them balls do hold strawberries, they act. And the, the example with plow and DDA would, in that sense be a, a imminent in that sense. Damn, it's, it's difficult for me to to, to get to these things. But does, does it make sense my, Mark: It, it, it Rune: questioning. Mark: it, it does make sense. I do see it somewhat differently, and some of that is because my understanding of the way humans relate with the world is that we create a model of the world in our minds. And we re and we relate to that. We, we perceive, we receive perceptual input, we filter that and massage it, and in some way invent it to some degree. And then, you know, so, all right, I receive all this input and I filter it and I decide what it is. And okay, there it is. There's, there's the bowl, right? And so I can relate in a, in an I vow sort of way with the bowl whether or not the bowl actually has any sort of supernatural el or metaphorical, symbolic, literal nature. Rune: Yeah, Mark: And it's, it's about what's on me to enchant the world. And us as a culture to develop the habits of enchanting the world. So that's, that's how I look at it. And I, I, I mean, I think the way that you look at it is, is perfectly legitimate and useful. It's just, I don't look at it quite the same way. Rune: but I think, I think, I think what you say there makes a lot of sense. Like, and it's important to, to, I might also be hashing it out in a little bit extreme. Terms here, because of course, humans do create models of the world, and we are imaginary beings that we have this capacity of, for instance, imagining stuff that doesn't exist already. And then by this insane capacity of projection, we are able to, to create stuff in the world that, that no other creature is, is capable of. And, and that capacity is in a sense, I think related to also the story of Dhada and all this. However, when you are then talking about the bowl and you're talking about. What its literal external nature is then what you're doing, I think, is that you are actually, you're reaching across the divide and you're talking about it in this, what can't would call the ding, the, the, you're talking about it in itself as, as completely detached from human perception. And and I I would say that that is probably so difficult to talk about that, that we almost can't. So perhaps there only is a cultural reality available, and then enchantment becomes then it kind of becomes a, a question of do we want a boring, interesting a boring uninteresting reality? Or, or do we want a reality where, you know, We have sex on rock car rings and dance around meadows and wear their elves and trolls and, and stuff like that is enchantment. It becomes more of, of a kind of enchantment or no enchantment than a, a question about that. There isn't exterior truth that defies in. Gentlemen, oh man, I feel I'm have trouble speaking in state terms here. Mark: No, you're, you're absolutely making sense. The place where I think we may differ is that, I find the world as revealed by science to be utterly enchanting. It is miraculous the nature of the universe. It is so inspiring and wonder and humility and awe and inspiring that I feel that without that, even without populating it, with those kinds of figures, I can still just be in this kind of open-hearted wondering, loving relationship with the nature, with the world itself in a way that demands that I have reciprocal relationships with things rather than rather than object, defy relationships with things. And so, you know, that may just be the path by which I got here. Which was through a lot of science. But yeah, I mean that's, that's the world that I inhabit is just, you know, that this world is just knocked down, drag out amazing. And I still want to dance around stones and have sex on beaches and all that kind of stuff. Rune: No, man. Thanks for that. That, yeah, that's, it's, it's, it's beautiful. And I totally, I totally follow what you're saying. I think, I think science is, is an incredibly beautiful and powerful way of looking at the world. And, and it has. And part of, I think part of what I'm, what fascinates me with science is that it, it has a trickster nature. Science, that thing about always questioning things. That thing about always being critical and being inherently critical of power, for instance. And also being playful proper science. Like a lot of contemporary scholarship, you know, a lot of contemporary cultural, cultural and social scholarship. It isn't playful for shit. It's just boring ass. They should, they should, yeah. They should do something else, like pick strawberries or something. But but but, but scholarship when it's real science, when it's real, it has a playful or in it. And and that's something that, that that yeah. But I then what I also think is that if we talk about atheism then I would say that if we look at research, history, history, It's probably a very fairly brief bleep in the history of science that science have understood itself as particularly atheist. And today with, for instance, new animus scholarship and these things, it's kind of, we're kind of, we're kind of moving theves back into the beauty of the scientific perception, so, Mark: Well that's, that's interesting. I mean, one of the reasons that. I mean, science is young for one thing, science other, other than just sort of the standard trial and error that leads to discovery, which all people have always done the  Yucca: in our instinctual way of understanding the world. Right. But  Mark: but formalized, the scientific method is only a few hundred years old and during most of that time, there has been a domination by Christianity mostly in the West, such that you couldn't actually say that you were an atheist, whether you, you whether your work pointed in that direction or not. So I think that, you know, the liberty, I mean, to be honest, it wasn't really until Richard Dawkins and the, you know, the four horsemen who I have many problems with, let me. Say to start with many problems. But it wasn't until they started standing up and saying, yes, we're atheists at the end of the 20th century, that it really became sort of more acceptable for a part of the population to start to express that. So it's new. It is. It's, it's a new thing. But when you look like at ancient Greece, there were people that were questioning whether the gods existed in any meaningful sense. Yucca: And I Rune: you, and you. Yucca: oh, I was just gonna say that I think that the, the common perception of what atheism is, is dominated by that very recent, very vocal and kind of, very negative kind of, no, no, no take on the world instead of a, a yes. Embracing take on the world. Mark: Yes. Rune: I wanna add one specific perspective to the to the understanding of history of religions in relation to this. And that is that if you look at the history of religions of Europe, then you have what you call like, normative knowledge forms. And and then what you also have is a. Considerable space of rejected ways of knowing all kinds of ideas that have been there through history, and they gone in all. And, and that's what's sometimes called esotericism. So Esotericism is this label that basically sort of gives an umbrella term for all the weird shit that's been happening for the last 2000 years outside of the normative knowledge hierarchy. So all the Astrologies and the Kabbalah and the spiritists and the, the philosophers and all that stuff, that, all that stuff is, is esotericism. And when you look at European history, a lot of a a lot of is, people are always like when we talk about intellectuals, that there will always be this sort of at least a kind of a consciousness that. Esoteric, non-normative ways of knowing are there, but sometimes also direct practice. I think that Darwin was an esoteric I think that a lot of the and I don't remember, I think he was Alchemist or something like that, and practicing some  Yucca: Newton certainly was. Rune: Newton new. Sorry. Yes, you are. You are, you are right there. That was the important name I was looking for. No Darvin yeah, that was a different story with him. But I think that that part of the, like if you look at the last 150 years is that, that I think in the eight late 19th century, you started having positivism. If I remember correctly. And that's sort of where you get the very strong split between or where science starts to see itself as in some sort of opposition to other ways of of thinking. And yeah, like, the there, there was an old Icelandic professor at the University of Coing in and my old professor remembered him from his student years. And he had, had, he had had this this Christmas lecture about gnomes and that was early 20th century. And as these sort of learned, super white scholars were sitting there and they were listening to him and he was talking about gnomes, at some point, they, it, it dawned on them that, That he he believed in grunes and he told about how he had met them when he was a, he was a child and these kind of things. And so that was sort of the, a, a clash between an early 20th century scholar from ICE Iceland, which is a bit of a particular story in these things. It's a little bit of kind of a insular bobble in in some respects. And in Copenhagen they were like, but, but about, about this Icelandic professor talking about G norms. But yeah. Yucca: Well, one of the things before we started recording that you had mentioned was that I'm trying to figure out how quite how to word this but you're very interested in to today and some of the political implications of some of the work that you're doing. Is that something you wanna speak to a little bit? Rune: Yeah, it's, I mean, when, when I started working on Nordic animism, I well, I knew all the time that it was important and that it's something that you can, like, you can never, you turn your face away from it, you have to look it straight in the eye, just all the time. I just, the word these words, Nordic Norse, Viking stuff, you know, all that kind of stuff, it just has a load of having been co-opted by all kinds of, Horrid political movements and, but it's actually deeper than not just that, like, it's not just hillbillys who are, you know, driving around in pickup trucks with guns and calling themselves some militia and waving Thor hammers and these kind of things. It, it's, it's, it's on, I think it's on deeper layers of our self image and, and self perception as people racialized as white and and yeah, and, and I, I, I feel that I'm getting new realizations of this more or less all the time. No, not all the time, but, but often reckon with a certain regularity that that when you are thinking with Euro traditionalism, then. Then it's just there. For instance, I, I think that today I think that that whiteness is almost like shaved, like a ball just talking about balls. It is almost as if whiteness is shaped a little bit like a ball. So if you wanna move out of it, then you come close to the borders and then it intensifies and scares you back in. So if you wanna if you wanna basic, yeah. Basically move out of the, the whiteness complex, then you're gonna have to start looking to Euro traditionalism. And as soon as you come in contact with that, you, you will start seeing ruins and. May Pires and stuff that has been co-opted by Nazis or other nasty people. So, so that, and that is sort of a, an inherent paradox, which is a condition for working with these things if you're a white person. And realizing that that paradox, realizing the nature of it and, and starting to cope with it, is an important feature. So that's one rea fairly reason realization. I also encounter policing actually where most non-white peoples would be like, well, decolonizing white people. What's not to like and what took you guys so long? Then scholars, white scholars, they, they often have this sort of they, they, they don't like that whole idea. And and, and then they often frame it as, oh, there's an inherent potential for nationalism in what you're doing. Or something like that, you know? And which there might be, there might be, and I'm fucking dealing with that all the time. And, and in the dealing with it, That's when the stuff becomes very applicable actually for, for thinking about how to be a respectful, kind, contemporary human. So today there are actually I'm familiar with two, perhaps perhaps even three, like systematic programs that use Nordic animism thinking for Deradicalizing right. Extremists in, in prison systems and, and these kind of things. So, so, so, so you see that, I think that when you're moving close to some stuff that feels dangerous and feel problematic, then you're also finding the solu, you're finding solutions on that path. Mark: Hmm. Hmm. It, it's, it's interesting as, as I listen to you, because what you say makes absolute sense to me in the context of Europe. In the United States, it's a little different because here we are in this completely colonized place, and many of us, like, you know, I've, I've had my d n A study done. I'm English, English, English, English, English. Nobody ever stepped out of their lane. And actually, you know, even married an Italian for God's sake. And, but my people have been here for 400 years. I have no ancestral or familial memory of any kind of tradition from England. And so my approach has been I need to create this anew. I need to, I n I need to start from values. Values like inclusiveness and kindness and you know, those compassion, those kinds of values reverence for the earth. And then from there, build a practice which can draw on some of the symbols and and, you know, folkloric practices like maypoles and things like that, but is fundamentally about not stealing from the indigenous people of this place. And instead creating my own understanding of a sacred landscape that I inhabit, that I can share with other people that derive from the same kind of lineage that I do. And with everybody else who wants it. I mean, you know anybody who wants it, but I understand that people who have been marginalized, they probably want to reach back to their ancestry, right. And pull that forward. I really don't, I, I don't feel a kinship with England. So it, it, it's just, I, I'm just struck by the difference. I don't have any firm fast conclusions about it. I just, it, it is a d a different experience. Rune: No, I think, I think what you're doing is probably very important and, and give like, like I. I'm kind of operating in this field where, where as an old world, I sometimes feel a little bit like a target for sort of old world nostalgia and these kind of things. I'm probably wearing a kilt and speaking all Gaelic all the time and all these things. But but what I actually think is that, that over there in Turtle Island, the cultural situation is such an intense mix of and, and it's as if the, the problems of our age are intensified on your side of the pond. The fact of, of living on genocided land in a highly cre and cre realiz culture. With the, the, the descendants of, of victims of colonization in your living space, probably every single day. Maybe not for all of you, but for many of you probably, right? And also immersed in, I I I perceive Americans as very immersed in ideological structures that are that are sort of connected with the problem. Now, that means, I think that means that, that the, the real answers in a sense are, are, are, are gonna probably come from, from America and, and, and stuff like what you are doing when you're thinking like this, mark. I think it's beautiful and, and it's, and I think it has an aspect of. Playfulness in it to say, Hey, I've been listening a little bit to your, your, your podcast and how you are thinking with different things, and you also like playing with seagulls and, and, and have been working on wheels of season like me and these sort, sort of things. And I think that playfulness will be an important voice in producing the answers that will bring us to a to a a decolonial future. I also think that one question that I meet a lot and which you also touch a little bit here is the question of cultural exchange. And I think that the ways that people have been talking about cultural exchange in American spaces in the last couple of years have a, have a problematic aspects. When we are not allowed to or when, if, if all cultural exchange is universally cri criticized at as cultural appropriation for instance, that is an essentially nationalist idea, which I've tried to criticize it which is difficult because you also have minorities. Who have been sitting there and their traditional culture has been completely overrun with like swarms, like locusts of white hippies. And they've been giving statements like, please stay away from our traditional spirituality. And of course, when that is the case, then that makes things fairly easy. You stay away. That's the respectful thing to do. But but there's also stories that, that I'm hearing a lot and I'm hearing 'em sort of in direct personal ways and that I'm not seeing so much in public space. And that is stories about mors who are perhaps in very, they're perhaps white Americans or Canadians, and they're in very deep and respectful rela learning relationships with, for instance, indigenous elders. Now, if that's the case, then that transfer of knowledge, if there is a teacher present, Then that knowledge is legitimate. Because if you wanna challenge that knowledge, then you're challenging the legitimacy of the teacher. And that is a, is, is a that can very easily be a colonizing practice. If you say, no, no, no, that Arapahoe elder there, he doesn't have the legitimacy to teach a white kid how to give tobacco to a stone because that's cultural appropriation or something like that. Then you're actually challenging the, the, the author, the ownership of the Arapaho elder. See what I'm saying? Mark: Yes, Rune: So, so, and, and I, I think, yeah. So anyway, I just wanted to mention that because you mentioned appropriation now. I think it's, it's important that, that the, the way that we are thinking about cultural exchange is, is is relieved from. What I think is, is a bit too unambiguous condemnation in, in the appropriation discourses. Mark: I, I really agree. It's, it's nuanced and Americans are not good at nuance. We, we just, we really are not, we're very, very black and white thinkers, most of us. And you know, a lot of good and bad, and usually we are good and somebody else is bad, and it's, it's an unhelpful way to approach the world. But certainly, I mean, if I were welcomed into a space where an indigenous person wanted to teach me some aspect of their culture, I would feel given permission absolutely entitled to incorporate that into my practice. I wouldn't feel entitled to teach it but I would feel entitled to incorporate it into my practice. That hasn't happened to me yet. So, Rune: But if you, if you, if you were part of that practice for 25 years and and then the person said, now you are a teacher. Mark: well then, yeah, Rune: You see? Yucca: But we run into the tricky problem of the outside perception and other people trying to gate keep that. And, and it's just such a very, it's a very raw, it's like when you, when you've been wounded and it hasn't healed yet. And there's just so many feelings and the nuance and it's, it's really, it's something that we, you know, we are just grappling with all the time. And I think that there's in certain directions that, you know, the pendulum swung really far in some ways, but it's not just one pendulum, right? There's so many pendulums going in every single direction at once, and you're just trying to sort through all of this generational trauma and guilt, and it's just a really heavy topic. Rune: No, thanks for that. Thanks for that. You okay. That was, that was really well said. And, and I sometimes also feel a little bit like an elephant in a porcelain shop when I'm, I'm, I'm talking to Americans about these things because I'm sitting on this side of the pond. And when you're interacting with Americans specifically, you, you get the feeling that, that, because these things are so intense, then you're talking to people where every single individual is on an MA level in, you know, critical race studies. Be because it, because, because it's so intense. Or, and that also means that, you know, I need to be a little bit careful when I'm kind of throwing out my state. Ah, come on. You guys need to calm down a little bit on the, on the, on the critical,  Yucca: it's good to have an outside perspective too, though, right? It's very valuable to hear that. And just hear w you know, what it looks like from the outside because we don't see ourselves from the outside. We just see ourselves in the midst of it going, oh, my ancestors murdered and raped my other ancestors. And you know, I don't know what you are feeling. And you're feeling and everybody's angry at each other. And you know, sometimes it's good just to have that outside perspective going, Hey, this is what I see from the outside, you know, Mark: and particularly in the United States, we have been so adamant about denying our responsibility for the Gen, the American genocide, the enslavement of Africans. We're still denying those things, and to the degree that in right wing states, they're banning teaching about them. And what that means is that because we won't acknowledge the wound, we can't heal it, and. And so the, the subject becomes very, because it's an open wound, it's very sensitive, you prod at it at all. And immediately people have these really vehement reactions. Rune: Yeah. Mark: And my hope is that as we go forward, I mean, this younger generation seems to have more comprehension about these issues. My hope is that as we go forward into the next generation, we'll start to come to grips with some of that horrible history. But it's very difficult to come to some kind of reconciliation with people who have been horribly colonized and abused when you won't even admit that you did it. Rune: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think also like with these sort of processes, I think the, the kind of cultural spaces that we are inhabiting today, primarily the internet cultural spaces I think they're probably also doing some unfortunate things to us, like, A tendency such as narcissism on social media platforms, speaking as a person who has a social media platform. Mark: me too. Yucca: that's all of us here, right? Yeah. Rune: it's like, it, it's, Yucca: double-edged. Yeah. Rune: it's a very dominating feature about how how people are reacting and or how people are, are interacting. And, and, and like I feel that, that, I almost feel that if we have the, the modernist subject here, the modernist idea of the subject that I spoke about before where, where humanity is inside a case, and if you, if you move into a if you move back in time where people would meet a group of elves that are moving away, that's because. Their subjectivity is not as encased as ours today. It's a little bit more fluffy like that then it is as what has it is as if what happens today is that these, these shells, they become hotter. They become like crystal, they become brittle. And it's as if I, if they touch each other, then it just goes. And, and then we have these, the, these so it's almost as it's almost as a kind of an in intensification of the, the modern subjectivity. And I don't know what's gonna happen, but I hope that what's gonna happen is that it's gonna open somehow again and hopefully in a way where it doesn't explode and then everybody just go mad. Which actually sometimes I feel that's what you're seeing. I, I've, sometimes I feel there's quite a lot of madness going around, like rather crazy reaction patterns. Mark: Mm-hmm. Rune: And unfortunately not only on the right wing, I mean, of course the right winging is like supreme when it comes to madness. Like, I mean now here in 2023, it feels as if, if it's such a long time ago that Donald Trump was the president in the us. But when I think about how, how was even, I'm not living over there. I'm living here, and it just feels like, oh fuck, you don't know if there's gonna be a civil war in America and what's that's gonna do to the world. Like the, eh, it was such a madness dominated situation, such a madness dominated situation, and it just felt like. It just felt like, it really felt like madness had had just taken up this gigantic space in the world that, that it, it, it didn't use to have and like, yeah. Anyway, you, you probably Yucca: Absolutely. Yeah. Rune: agree even. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Rune: And I thought it was something I wanted to say about this whole thing with yeah. But, but I also think that like, with these strong reaction patterns and these intensifying subjective borders Then I also think it, that it's important to be a little bit like, okay, so now I'm just gonna say it, you know, all cultural exchange is not cultural appropriation. And sometimes when people shout cultural appropriation, it's actually not legitimate. Yucca: Yeah, Rune: they, there are many cases where, where it's super legitimate, but there are also cases where people are shouting it, where it's not legitimate. And there are legitimate cases of cultural exchange even within, between white and indigenous groups. You. Mark: Sure. And, and there are, there are over claims. I mean, I read a rant by an indigenous man who argued that no one should be allowed to use feathers in any kind of religious or ritual context except for indigenous Americans. People have been using feathers and seashells and pine cones and other  Yucca: we were humans. Mark: since, since before we were humans. That is a birthright of every homo sapiens. And I mean, I, I mean, I understand the person's outrage about cultural appropriation, but that's just a little much. Rune: yeah. It becomes, it it like I spoke on my channel to this Irish, amazing Irish guy called Monan. Magan who and he was telling about how his ancestors was a Phyla, a a poets an Irish poet. And that, that he was the last person to legitimately carry a feathered cloak, a specific cloak with made with crimson feathers that were part of their tradition, their and and I later I heard Monon there, he spoke with an. Aboriginal Australian author that I'm quite fascinated by, Tyson, young Porter. I really recommend his book, sand Talk. And Tyson, he was telling him, Hey man, you should go to you should go to New Zealand because the Maori, they have actually feather cloaks. They make feather cloaks. And that is a specific it's a specific sign of, of specific status among the Maori. So if you want to. Recover this ancient Irish symbol of a specific cultural status as a, as a poet, a speaker of which, which is also cosmologically super important in, in moron's tradition there. Then he might be able to learn some of that from or he might be able to learn something about it or rebuild it with inspiration from the Maori. Now I think that something like that would be an that, like if something like that would become possible, that would be very, very good. Very, if people are ha have wounds that are too deep for it to be possible, then of course, you know, Respecting people's feelings is it's a condition of building positive relations, which is the whole thing is about. Mark: Right? Rune: So, but but if stuff like that could be possible, that would be, I think, very beautiful to reach that point. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: And so, can we talk about your book for a moment? Because it seemed your book is something that you have Done digging into the literature in many different languages and, and brought forward some some traditions to that people might be really interested in. Rune: Yeah, I don't know if I've been digging in literature in many different languages, Yucca: well,  Rune: I, but like, I'm a  Yucca: least two and it's in English, so we got three languages Rune: yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm, I'm a, I'm a Skiddish movie and so, so, so I read read Danish and Swedish, and, and that's, that, that's an advantage of course, because a lot of the re and I'm a scholar, you know, I'm a nerd already, so, so that means that reading these kind of old, weird folklore compilations is, is available to me, but it is, or more available to me than for perhaps to you. Right. So, so what I did with this calendar book here, which is called, it's called the Nordic Animist Year, was that yeah, I was in, there was a couple of different Cal Calend traditions that I was interested in communicating. One of them was the ROIC calendar, where every day, around the year used to have two runes attached to it. And these runes, like from a, from one perspective, they just place the day in, in relation to a week. So if there's one specific room and in a given year, then it means it's a Tuesday and next year, perhaps it, that same room would be a Monday. But then you can look at your room staff and you can see if, if it's a Monday tomorrow, right? And the other then marks. There is a line of ruin that where one of the ruins marks the new moon. So you know when the lunar month begins and those two. The weeks they're fixed on our year. So that means that it represents a solar and the lunar moons then represents the lunar cycle. So that was a beautiful, beautiful example of an animist tradition that nobody, it seemed to me that nobody really sort of was so aware. Yeah, yeah. You know, you could meet scholars who knew that it was there and a couple of nerds here and there, but it wasn't really communicated into, into public space that that system even existed. So, so I took that system and then I sort of worked through also a number, a bit of scholarship on on all the different holidays around the year because the The the traditional animist year used to be actually rather dense with all kinds of traditions. And and so, so I was, I was also kind of inspired again by indigenous scholarship where these people are often, they at least in North America and also in Australia they sometimes work with calendars as a way of getting back or maintaining or getting back into, into connection with traditional ways of knowing. And that partic I think it's just a very strong intuition and like you've done it yourself. Mark and I, you know, you can see on your podcast that you were talking a lot about sewing and Belton and, and, and all these different holidays. So, so I basically, yeah, did, did this, this little book as a, as a. Kind of a cursory introduction to the the entire year in the, in the Nordic in Nordic area. Mark: Hmm. Yucca: Wonderful. Mark: Well, we'll definitely put a link to where people can buy it in the show notes for the, for the podcast. I wanna read it myself. It sounds, sounds great. Yeah. Yucca: And so where else can people find you? Rune: Oh my God. Yeah. I'm on, I'm on, I'm on all those social media platforms that I can't be bothered to mention. But, but, but particularly, particularly look for my, for Nordic animism on my YouTube, because my YouTube channel that's kind of the, the backbone, but then I'm also on, you know, Facebook and Instagram and even on TikTok and Yucca: well, we'll include the links in that then in the show notes for everybody. Yeah, and thank you so much. This was really amazing. You gave us so much to think about. I'm gonna be thinking about this for a long time, so really, really value you coming on and spending this time with us. Thank you. Rune: Thank you very much. It was so nice to meet you guys. And and, and have a chat here. Mark: Yeah. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. I. Rune: You're welcome.    

theAPSociety.org/AWW2023/ https://www.jarodkanderson.com/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E12 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: and today, we are just going to have a short episode in which we announced the exciting thing that's coming up in June, so let's get into it. Yucca: That's right, which is June is not very far away. So welcome to April, everybody. Here we are. So in two months from now actually, why don't you go ahead, mark. What are, what's happening in two months from now? Mark: two months from now, we are holding an online conference, which is going to be called the atheopagan Web Weaving 2023, and it's an opportunity for us to gather together over Zoom Potentially hundreds of us because we're, we have the infrastructure to accommodate that. And we'll have workshops and informational SEC sessions and classes that will happen in breakout groups. We'll have a keynote speaker. We have a special session of the adult salon, which will be a burlesque class that'll be happening by some well trained professional burlesque dancing people. Yeah. So, and there's just, you know, we're gonna do community acknowledgements of various rights of passage. People who got married or had a baby or got divorced or retired, or. Whatever, you know, whatever those things are. There's just, there's gonna be a lot of really cool stuff at this conference and we'll talk a little bit about some of those offerings today. But the main thing to know is the conference is from zero to $50 to register Yucca: Right. So no Mark: can't afford. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That's right. No, nobody will be turned away for lack of money. We're asking people to shoot for $20 as a registration, and the money is going to be used to compensate the people that are teaching the workshops as well as the keynote speaker. And we're, we're hoping to at least break even on this event. So that's what your money's going towards is actually producing this conference. You can find out all the information about this at the atheopagan society.org, which no, which is the ap society.org/a w w 2023, which is short for atheopagan web weaving 2023. Yucca: and we're gonna put the link in the description so you don't have, yeah, you can just go click on it from your whatever app you're using to listen to this. So you can just go ahead and click right there. Mark: You can download the program there. There's a button that you can click to register on, sign ingenious. The whole thing is very transparent and easy to do. We've got, since we since we launched this morning, we've already got a bunch of registrations. So it's all working and we'd really like for you to come and join. We're gonna have breakout sessions that are just for socializing, so you can hang out with fellow atheopagan and non theist naturalistic pagans and get to know one another. So we're really excited about this. We've been working on it for a while, and hope that you'll come. Yucca: Yeah, and, and it's really exciting to have an online gathering because last year we did have an in-person gathering, which was amazing, and we're gonna have one again next year. But that's not something that's sustainable for us to do. Every year on a large scale, right? Maybe local groups might be able to, you know, there might be the California or Col, Colorado or UK or something like that. Groups that can do it every year, but for bringing people in from all over, and of course we can't all travel. That's not, you know, necessarily a possibility for everybody. So being able to, Gather and connect with each other. Get to see each other's faces, although you don't have to. Right. If you're not Yeah, Mark: video. If you don't want to, or even your audio, you can just sit and. Yucca: Right. So we, we really want it to be as welcoming and open for everybody, right? And so that's why one of the reasons that this is so exciting is it's gonna be a chance for us to connect. And of course, you know, we can connect through Discord and Facebook and all of that, but there's something very different about it being an event, Mark: Yes. And being able to see one another's faces it's, it's, it's not as good as in person and we all know that, but it is still pretty amazing to be able to see people from all over the world who are of like mind in terms of their, their religiosity. Your spirituality and to share ideas and information and get to know one another. So I am, I'm really pretty pumped about this. And you know, as Yucca says, one of the things that was. Kind of a sad thing about the Suntry retreat that we had last year is that inevitably there are people that just can't afford to buy a plane ticket or to, you know, to go Yucca: Take off of work or whatever it is. Yeah. Mark: whatever it is, and this really will enable anybody that can simply get the time on June 3rd and fourth, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Saturday and Sunday. Mark: Saturday and Sunday. Just to log in and, and have this experience with us together. Yucca: Point, and it's nice that there's, there's some just social time, but there's also workshops. So I find, personally, I like to have a structure when I'm meeting new people. So that we have something that, oh, we're coming and working on this together. Right. That's kind of nice sometimes to have that, that structure to. To center the social interaction around. But then also there's just the, for people who just wanna just hang out and just talk, that's an option too. And so throughout the day, different times, different options. So if you work in the morning but you don't in the evening, then there's plenty for you to come and, and do in the evening or vice versa. Or you can do one day but not the other. Or if you wanna spend all day, both days, that's awesome too. There'll be a lot. So, Mark: Yeah, so what I'd like to do now actually, is to read off some of the program offerings that are in the program for this. In the first workshop slot on Saturday, there are three offerings, sarcastic tau which just is very intriguing just for its title the way of the atheopagan cleric, which is one that I'll be teaching about performing that kind of service in the community, and Stardust communion, connecting with our stellar roots through science, observation, and ritual. Yucca: Ooh, I think I know who Mark: Pretty cool, huh? Yucca: Okay. Mark: Yeah. And then in workshop, slot two is reclaiming the sacred, how to heal after leaving Abusive Religion. I know that'll have appeal for a bunch of people in our community. There's a, a workshop on imaginal practice, which is about sort of the inner world of creativity. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and then there's a, a, a sciencey presentation on wastewater treatment and the magical world of microbes because a member of our community is the manager of a wastewater treatment plant. Yucca: That's Mark: that's, it is, yeah. I'm so excited about it. Do a community Bardic circle, which is an open mic where people can read poetry, and you don't have to have your camera on if you don't want to. You could just have your microphone on. You, you can read poetry or spoken word Yucca: camera on and have, and be, have your whole costume. Right. That's an option too. Yep. If you want that, that excuse to, to dress up in that fantastic feather gown and cloaks that you have. Here's your opportunity. Mark: Yeah. And in fact, you don't even have to do anything else. If you're dressed up that fancy, you can just show us your beautiful duds. Yucca: That's right. Mark: Yeah. So we'll have that. We're later in the evening on Saturday, we're having a dance and cocktail party. So, one of, we'll, it'll be in breakout. And we'll have several of them open. One of them will be streaming dance music for people to enjoy. And the rest of them will be social groups. So you'll be able to move from room to room and visit with people that are, that are there in the breakout rooms. And that's just Saturday, so I'm gonna leave it there. So you can, if you're, if you're interested, you can go and look for the program and see what the rest we're offering. But it's I am, I'm so grateful to the folks that have been working on this. I, I know that our community members are atheopagan Society Council members. Rona and Michael have both done a lot of work on this, and it's super exciting. And now we get to talk about our keynote speaker, Yucca: Yes. Mark: pray. We, we just announced this this morning. We are really excited about this. The keynote speaker, which will be during the lunch hour on Saturday lunch hour Pacific time is Jared k Anderson, who is also known as the crypto naturalist. He is a poet and a writer and a podcaster. His material gets shared in the atheopagan Facebook group pretty frequently because his, it's just lovely stuff. At, in one of his pieces, he talks about how we are all part of an explosion and at a certain point, apparently, Adams just get sort of haunted, and that's us, Yucca: Hmm. Mark: The, the, the arisal of consciousness to be able to to look back at the universe and see ourselves and see what's going on here. It's, it's all there. It is. It's all kind of mysterious. Adams sometimes get haunted. I love. Yucca: Mm. That's wonderful. Mark: yeah. So I'm really looking forward to seeing him and actually he has a sale on his audiobooks right now. He has two books of poetry and they're four bucks a piece on audiobook, so go and look for that. We will put a link to his website in the show notes for today as well, so you can go and learn more about. So, Yucca, do you have other questions or things to offer about the upcoming conference? Yucca: Hmm. Well, you said it's two days, right? Those are two full days. So Mark: Sunday. The Sunday is a little shorter. It starts later in the morning and it runs a little bit shorter, Yucca: So you can do those Saturday evening activities, be rested for the morning. Yeah. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: And of course Mark did not mention all of the Sunday activities. There's, there's quite a few of those.  Mark: Are, there's more workshops and all kinds of stuff. Yucca: Right. You know, I'm, I'm not thinking of anything else. Of course. Any of you listening, if you've got questions about it go ahead and, and take a look at the link that we've got there. Anything else you can think of sharing, mark? Yeah. Mark: There is a, a question button on that page that I, I said the URL to. So if you have a question, just fill out the contact form and we'll, we'll get back to you and answer your question. Yucca: Yep. And of Mark: So, Yucca: the sooner we know who's planning to come, the better it is for the organiz. So if you are planning to come, it is really helpful just to let us know right away or sooner rather than, you know, the day before. So, Mark: Yeah, that's really important because if currently our Zoom account capacity is a meeting of up to a hundred people now if we have. Of more than a hundred registrants, we will simply buy more capacity from Zoom, but we need to know that they're coming, right? So Yucca: we would be delight if Mark: can register, the better. Absolutely we'd be, you know, over the moon if we had more than a hundred registrants. But we, but we would need some warning on that so we can buy the capacity from Zoom and people don't get bumped out. Yucca: Right. Mark: So please register early and often, just like they say about voting. Yucca: That's right. Well, and hopefully this, we, this will be something that we can do again in the future. I think there'll be a lot for us to learn, and I hope that it, it becomes an ongoing tradition. Mark: me too. And in the lead up we'll have interviews with a couple of the program presenters who who are going to be doing workshops or offerings at the conference so we can learn more about them. And I think that's pretty much about it, but we should talk about what we're gonna talk about next week as well. Yucca: Oh yes. Yeah. So we've got some interesting topics coming up. And we are. In a interesting month, right. We're in April, which is a month where there's a lot of kind of mainstream religious holidays that are taking place. Mark: Yes, yes. It's Earth Month, which is cool. We're, we're all cool with that. But of course Easter is also coming up soon and so it's a, it's a good time and Ramadan is also happening right Yucca: Passover. Yep. Mark: Yeah. So it's a good time for us to talk about the contrasts between Pagan values and our perspective on the world and those other kinds of religious path. Yucca: Right. And I think we'll probably get into a little bit about how some of those other paths have influenced the larger culture within which we live. Right, and even us as pagans, how are we influenced, even though we're not Christian or we're not, whatever those particular religions are, we're still steeped in a culture that has those values and you know, which ones are ones that, you know, we're choosing to examine and step away from and which ones were not, and how do we differ and, and that kind of thing. So I think that'll, that'll be a really interesting conversation. Mark: I think so too. The, well, I'll save it all for next week. That's, that's what I'll do Yucca: Sounds good. Mark: I've, I'm, I've already, I already have wheels turning, so there you go. Yucca: Yep. Well, this Mark: Um, once again, oh, go ahead. Yucca: Oh, I was just gonna do a wrap up. Sounds like you're doing a wrap up though Mark: Let's do them on top of one another and see if people can understand us Yucca: the same time. Okay. Mark: No, no, no. Yucca: No, go ahead, mark. Mark: Well, as always, we really appreciate your listening. Thanks for the emails and comments that we've had recently. We really appreciate it. If we haven't gotten back to you yet, we will. We, we do always respond to our emails except for the ones that pretend to be invoices that we don't actually owe. So, Yucca: of those. Yeah. Mark: yeah, it's a. Yucca: Apparently our crypto wallet keeps getting hacked or something like that. Right. Mark: Yeah. And we don't have a crypto wallet, so that's, that's a, a Yucca: we've had a few Nigerian princes too that wanna give us a lot of money, so, yep. Anyway, Mark: but we have to, we have to Yucca: to. Yes. Yeah. Alright. Mark: Yeah. All right, everybody. See you next week.      

Atheopagan Web Weaving 2023 https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/aww2023/ Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E11 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca, Mark: And I'm Mark. Yucca: and this week we're going to talk about dreams. Mark: Ooh. Yucca: Actually can't believe we haven't talked about dreams yet. Mark: It is kind of surprising. We were, we were both kind of mystified as to why we haven't done that yet. Yucca: Yeah, and I'm quite curious because we've never had this conversation. Not only have we not had it on the podcast, but we haven't had it off of recording either. So I don't know what your thoughts, opinions, experiences with dreams are. So I look Mark: Oh, well, I, I, I hope, I hope they're shocking. Yucca: Shocking. Okay. Well, I think a good place to start is def definitely with what are dreams. Right? Mark: Yeah. And I, as you say, I don't know whether we'll have a similar perspective on this. I tend to think of dreams as kind of like the, the brain running a screensaver, drawing on bits of memory and themes of concern, and. Things that are kind of weighing on your mind, whether it's your conscious mind or your unconscious mind, and then putting together these fantastical sort of stories in a. In a very, in an almost random sort of way. There's a lot of random generation in, in dreams that you can see. So that's what I think is the brain doing that and contributes to imagination. It solves problems. You know, we have so many examples of people who have discovered things waking up in the middle of the night going, aha, it out. Right? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So that's what I think it is. How about you? Yuck. Yucca: Yeah. Your, your understanding. It really reflects mine as well. It's something that I haven't dug into research on. Right. I don't have a deep understanding of neurobiology. You know, I certainly have read articles here and there and things like that, but it's not something that I've really done a lot of research in. But, but what you were saying about it being basically our, our brains. Processing stuff, right, our experiences, putting together ideas and there being a randomness to it. But I think there's also sometimes parts of it that aren't quite as random though, because we are trying to figure stuff out. Mark: Yeah. Oh, Yucca: we're definitely trying to figure stuff out, piece it together, and there's definitely. There. I mean, there's different kinds of dreams that we can get into. But that sometimes it's just our brain rerunning through the stuff that we're doing during the day. Right. And sometimes it's working on, you know, particularly difficult experiences that we had, you know, running through trauma or things like that is, but I, I think it's a way that, that our. that our brains are trying to make sense of what's going on. And it seems like there's something in there tied in with the sleep that we don't really understand a lot of the mechanisms for yet. We know that sleep is really important for us. We know that it evolved. Really early on because we see it in lots of other species. We see it in very, very different species than us. I remember a few months back there was an announcement about a scientist suggesting that they had recorded what appeared to be spiders having r e m sleep, which is. Type of sleep that we have dreams in that of course they're not inside of the, the minds of these creatures, but that looking at the way that they behaved seemed to match with what we thought other creatures did at the same time that they were going through r e m. And so if it is so widespread, there has to be a really important purpose for it. Mark: Right, right. Well, there's no. . Well, there's two questions there, right? I mean, the first one is, what's the point of sleep? And we have really not very good answers Yucca: Yeah, we know what happens when you don't get it though. Mark: Yes, we, we know that all kinds of things go very, very wrong when you don't sleep. So apparently it's staving that stuff off, but we're not entirely sure why those things go wrong. So that's still a point of investigation. And then on top of that is this layer of. Well then these dreams happen and, and what's that about? I tend to agree that I think it's the brain. Some of it's just random. Some of it's just sort of, you know, rerunning stuff that it's experienced before or imagined before. But some of it is the brain chewing on naughty problems that, that just. You know that aren't easily solved and that are bugging us, Yucca: Right. And we should say before going too much farther, that not all sleep has dreams and not all types of, so there's different stages of sleep and then there's different types of dreams as well. There's these sort of surface level ones and then there's, we were talking about the REM sleep a much. Deeper, more vivid kind of dreaming, so, Mark: Right. And RM sleep tends to be more narrative as well. There tends to be a story, whereas in lighter phases of sleep, it can literally just be flashes of different kinds of scenes and events that don't really tie together. And even though the story can be very fantastical there can be a kind of a line that you can draw through it, and then you can try to figure out what's going on there. And that's, that's part of the age old human attempt at interpreting what dreams mean. Yucca: Right. So that's a nice segue into the next section, which is, you know, what are they mean to us Mark: Mm-hmm. yeah. My answer to that is uncharacteristically vague. Cuz I tend to have very, you know, kind of concrete opinions about things, but I think sometimes they can be very meaningful in very concrete kinds of ways. They can be telling us something. Our subconscious wants us to do or thinks is the right thing to do or you know, or expressing a fear or an anxiety or an anger, you know, something that, that relates to something real in our lives. And then other times, as I said, it's just screensaver and there may not be a lot of content there. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And part of the trick is differentiating between those categories. Yucca: Yeah. Well, I think. There's a component to dream interpretation that's very popular. You'll find lots of books about it where it has certain symbols mean certain things. And I don't buy that on a universal level. I don't think that when you see a Blue Falcon. Flying through a cloud that to every single person that is going to mean the same thing because that I think that each person is going to have a different association with those types of symbols. And I think there might be things that specific cultural groups might have, certain associations with things that would be more likely that, oh, well if you grew up in this particular, Culture and in this particular religion or something like that. There, the symbology might be very different to you than it would be to somebody else. And so, you know what a snake means to somebody who grew up in a Baptist family. You know, there, there might be some similarities between those people, but not that snakes u mean this, like it's a code that we can translate. Mark: Yeah, I, I agree with you. I don't think that there is a lexicon of. Of things that can be experienced in a dream that have direct correlations, like a dictionary that, that doesn't, has never made any sense to me. And I think it's one of the places where Freud really went off the rails. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: it just, I mean, there were a lot of ways that Freud really went off the rails, but but that was one of 'em, Yucca: Yeah. But with all of that, I think that within our own minds that there's a lot, a lot to be discovered there. And as you were saying, the trick, figuring out which is which there's lots of different tools, but a classic one is a dream. Mark: right. Yucca: And keeping a dream journal can give you the opportunity to be able to go back through some of the dreams that you are having. Now for me and my experiences, dreams fade very quickly unless recorded. Once I write a dream down, I norm, I usually remember having that. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: back through and I reread that journal, I go, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, of course I remember that. But if I hadn't written it down, it would just be gone. I don't know that every dream is worth writing down. I certainly, there were times in my life that I wrote everything down, but now someti, if it, it seems particularly important to me, I'll write it down. Or if, or if I notice that I'm having repeating themes and particular dreams, then I'll write that down and reflect on that. Mark: I don't remember my dreams very much. They have to be pretty vivid for me to remember them. And what that has done among other things, is make a dream journal really difficult for me because I decide, okay, I'm gonna do a dream journal, and then three weeks later when I finally have a dream that I, that's vivid enough to remember I've forgotten all about the fact that I decided to have a dream journal. So, you know, that's just sort of a. Particular quirk of mine. But I say this because many other people also have a very hard time remembering their dreams or they don't dream in a way that's conscious enough to capture very often. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just kind of the way we're built. Yucca: Yeah. And it's, if it's, if it's useful to you, right? It's not, once again, you're not a bad pagan if you don't roll over every morning and record down exactly what it was that you, that you dreamt. There's, it could be useful for you and, and maybe not, right? Mark: Yeah, and one of the things that I try to keep in mind when I'm interpreting dreams is that, Even if the symbols and things that I've captured and I'm trying to interpret were relatively random, that doesn't really matter because a random symbol set can be very provocative of subconscious discovery. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: like a, just like a Toro deck. The cards, the cards are random, but the symbols on the cards will provoke associations for you because of your particular consciousness that will, that can help you to learn things, so, Yucca: act of you trying to interpret it is what's going to help you actually figure out what's going on. Mark: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it sounds like you have more of an active and available dream life than I do. What, what sorts of things do you do with your dreams in terms of interpretation? Yucca: Hmm. So there's a, there's another piece we're going to get to later on, which is the lucid component. I. Don't do a lot with the interpretation component unless it's something that, that is really reoccurring. Like, and there's certain kind of classic ones that, that people have of like the falling ones or the this or the that. When I noticed there's a, there's a couple of them that I have that are in the reoccurring, and when that starts to pop up, it's part of a pattern in my life that I recognize of, Ooh, that's that particular. Area that I really struggle with, that I have a lot of stress around. And when I start getting the dream about it, it means, at least for me, my interpretation has been that I'm not giving it the attention that it needs by the time it creeps into reoccurring dream territory. I have left it unde with for too long. So that. Mark: very reasonable. Yucca: Yeah, . But when it comes to the active dreaming, which we will come to in a little bit, that's something that's, that's really central in my practice and something, a tool that I've used for my whole life. So, but before we get there, what about for you with the interpretation? I know you said that you don't really remember your dreams that much, Mark: I, I don't very often, and so really more what I reach for. As I'm waking up and remembering bits and pieces of, of these dreams, what I reached for is what was the feeling associated more than anything else, because that tells me what's likely to be going on underneath the surface of my day-to-day operation. If there's a feeling of shame or a feeling of fear, Or a feeling of happiness. Although for some reason dreams tend to be more warning and work on stuff that's a problem than they, than they are just sort of celebratory.  Yucca: Do you think that that's a, those are the ones you remember because we are. that there would be an advantage to focusing on the worrisome, dangerous stuff or do you think it is? Yeah. Mark: it could be. But I think also, What tends to happen is that the, the more joyous dreams that I have tend to be dreams where I'm lucid and I'm making choices. So, you know, and we'll talk about that in a minute. But I do find that I can learn a lot just from kind of the vibe of a, of a dream and maybe some of the more prominent symbols that emerged from that. There have been a few times when I've been killed in dreams Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and those have always been very powerful. And I've interpreted them as meaning, you know, major dislocations or transformations. Sometimes they've come at times in my life when I was in a major transition and so that kind of made sense. Yucca: Was there, did you wake immediately from those, or was there dream after being killed? In the dream. Mark: Both depending. Yeah, there was one where I got killed right at the beginning of the, the dream, and so I had the, there was an earthquake. At San Francisco State University and I was in the Student Union, which is a concrete building, and it cracked and collapsed and killed me and a lot of other people. And we all had to go into the basement of the student union, which didn't have a basement, Yucca: Hmm. Mark: to to stay there then, because we were dead and we couldn't go out in the daylight and we couldn't interact with anybody who was alive. We were still, for all purposes alive, we just had to stay down there because we were dead and some. People were trying to figure out what they could do other than hang out under the student union. And so at night they would go out and explore. And I finally went with one of these exploring groups and we walked to the Pacific Ocean, to the, to a cliff overlooking the Pacific Ocean. Big, bright, full moon. Beautiful. And I dived because we were going to live under the sea since we didn't need to breathe anymore. And then I realized as I was diving that the salt water of the ocean was going to be incredibly caustic to me because I was dead and it was just, it was going to burn me alive. And then I woke up. Yucca: Oh wow. Mark: Yeah. So sort of double death dream. That's, that's, that's one that stuck with me. But I woke up before I hit the water. Yucca: Oh wow. of that? Yeah. Mm-hmm. only times that I can remember ever dying in my dreams. I've always been shot. Mark: I've been stabbed, I've been drowned. I've I've a bunch. I, I, now that I think about it, I don't think I have been shot. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Hmm. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But on the other hand, you're in New Mexico, which is one of the most heavily armed states in the country.  Yucca: Yeah. I mean, yes, like, but the, unless you're in like the urban areas, the, there isn't actually the, like statistically the gun violence is not Mark: oh no. I'm not saying the gun violence Yucca: yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, we're all, everybody, you know, I grew up around guns. I, yeah. But no, it's never, it's always been . I think it was more influenced actually by seeing TV with like, Mark: Oh Yucca: like movie type of, yeah. It would be real interesting to look into where that is. But that, I mean, that's certainly, yeah, something I grew up around and it's not. It's kind of a, it's a, it's a normal part of life in the, the rural areas. So, but I've never had any, like the roof collapsing on me or, you know, Mark: Well, I'm an earthquake country, of course. So that's, that's something we think about. You know, whenever the, whenever the earth shakes, we think about the roof coming down on us. Yucca: Right. Well, and I guess that makes sense that different people are going to. . You know, I've also never had dreams about a boating accident, not something we do a lot of out here. I don't Mark: Ah-huh. Yucca: of, you know, boating experience, Mark: open water. Yucca: But somebody who grew up on the coast and, you know, went sailing every weekend during their childhood, maybe they'd have a different experience with that. Mark: right. Yucca: so plenty of flying dreams though. Mark: Me too. A lot of flying dreams. Yeah. Lucid Flying Dreams are my favorite. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Cuz then you can go where you want to go. Right. It's really fun. Yucca: Yeah. Well, let's talk about this lucid.  Mark: Why don't you define that for folks first? I. Yucca: sure. So a lucid dream is when you are aware that you are dreaming and you're still dreaming. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Then there's different levels. You can be lucid but not be. Consciously influencing what's happening, but you can also be lucid and be influencing what's happening. So a lot of times when people say lucid, they mean you can control your dreams, but technically it is just being lucid, being aware of that dream. So there's different levels to that.  Mark: Yeah, the, the awareness is necessary. You have to be aware that you're dreaming in order to be lucid dreaming. The degree of agency that you have may vary. Yucca: Right. So, and this is something that people can just naturally do. It's also something that, that you can learn and train yourself to do. and that's, and people have different levels of comfort with that and techniques for trying to stay in the dream when you realize that you're dreaming, because a lot of people struggle with, once they realize they are dreaming, they wake themselves up. Mark: up. Yeah. Yucca: So for me, I, I've always been a lucid dream. And that's just something that's been part of my life my whole life. But when I was about nine or 10 years old, I started to. Purposefully cultivate it and use it as a tool. And that was something that, you know, I talked, I had interest in and was talking about that with my father and he got me books and things like that. So a lot of what I know about for other, for learning how to lose the dream just comes from having read those books. But I never taught myself to lose the dream. It was just something I always. Did. Which I actually think, I don't know if, if it was something that I always did or if it was taught, because I do remember being very little and having nightmares, and the response that my parents would give me would be about how to change it, right? If I was being chased by the monster, they'd say, okay, we'll go back to. And then you tell the monster that this is your dream, not the monster's dream. And imagine something funny happening instead, right? Like the monster's chasing you, but all of a sudden now you're jumping on the big balls and now you're giggling and laughing together. They were always very specific about, Hey, when you change a dream, don't, don't change it into something hurt, harmful. Right. Don't imagine, you know, the monster getting hurt or blowing up or something like that may get something that is, that is funny or twisted or like in a, in a positive way. Because the implication, they never said this straight out, but the implication was that the monster was me. Mark: Right. Yucca: All of that was just me. Whatever I'm doing in my mind is, is affecting me. So don't make it into like a hurting yourself. Make it into a transformational experience. So I remember doing that, my parents doing that, and I do that with my kids. which is easy because we live in a one bedroom , so anytime they're having a nightmare, I know, I know what they are. And so it's something that, that I think is just really helpful to, to never have the belief in the first place that you can't control your dreams so that you can't influence your dreams because you can't. Right. We're, we're taught that we can't. And the media around it and all of that, it's like, oh no, you, you don't, you don't influence, you don't have control over it, but you do. Right. But do you always want to, is a very, very different pick is a different question. So for me, the dreams that I'm, most of my dreams, I choose to not be con, to be lucid in because I don't feel as rested from. So I will choose, it will, I'll be going to sleep and I'll decide, am I gonna be lucid or not? I'll realize I'm dreaming and go, okay, so let go. I, I literally tell myself, let go and just let the dream happen and let go of that. The lu lucidity. Lucidness Mark: Lucidity. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. But when I do lucid, I, I do a lot of work when I need to. In that dream state is a, is a really powerful state to go into. I will work through problems that I'm having, I'll do actual ritual in that state and I actually do a lot of work in that state too. So I do a lot of so I'm. Trying to take a whole bunch of information and construct a lecture of how do I take these complex ideas and put them together anytime I need something that's creative but builds it. So I'll go to, so I, I teach a bunch of classes and I need to build a class. I'll go to sleep and then work on the actual outline and structure in the dream state, and then wake up and I'll write it down immediately and I've got the structure. but if I do that too much, I don't rest . So it, it's a, it's a, you know, you're not, I don't know what's going on on a physical level there, but I do not feel as rested when I, losed dream is when I just let myself dream. Mark: Yeah, I don't either. It lucid dreaming feels like effort. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: To me some of which is some, some amount of effort to maintain the dream Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And some of which is just to, you know, I'm, I have to pay attention, I have to make decisions, I have to do all that kind of stuff. So yes, my experience as well is that a lucid dream is not as restful. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I also. Do lucid dreaming? It's relatively rare because I'm usually just not aware of my dreams. But not, I mean, not infrequently with the dreams that are really impactful for me. I will realize, you know, I'm trying to read something and it's gibberish and oh, I'm dreaming, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: or Something happens that's impossible. Well, you know, being a naturalistic pagan when something that's physically impossible happens, I go, eh, I think I'm dreaming. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And. I, I, I have a lot of fun in lucid dreaming. I don't really use it for ritual work or even for, I mean, I suppose I should, given that it's kind of down there in the subconscious, but mostly I just use it to have The one thing that I do do that is kind of self-referential is I like to go and look in the mirror Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and I can't really describe what I've seen. , but it hasn't been my face. It's been, you know, deeper layers of who I am. So that's a very powerful exercise. If you find yourself in a dream and you wake up, go in the bathroom and look in the mirror. Yucca: or pull out the hand mirror that you happen to have in your pocket because it's your dream. Mark: Yeah. Pockets in me, in dreams are like pockets in cartoons. You can pull anything out of. Yucca: They're bigger on the inside. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Well, and the, the looking at a mirror, this, that's one where when people are trying to develop the, to be able to wake up in their dream, that's a classic one is to check whether you're dreaming or not look at a mirror. Another one is to look at writing. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Look away, look back at the writing. Has it changed? And. We tend to do in our dreams, the things that we do when we're awake. So if you have a habit in your, like waking life where you always push your, the glasses up on your nose or you have a habit where you look at your phone or your watch, or you do you think something throughout the day those are things that you'll tend to repeat in the dream. And so one of the things that people can do to try and learn to lose a dream is to ask yourself throughout the day, am I dreaming? And check if you're dreaming, but you have to actually do the things so that you repeat that in your dream. Because if it's not actually a habit, you won't actually do it in your dream. But yeah, you check and you go, okay. I look at my watch and right now I look at my watch and there's actually the time on it. I look back and it's the same time, so I go, yeah, I'm, I'm awake. Right? Mark: Yeah. Yucca: But then once you're in the dream state, you mentioned this, this maintaining yourself in the dream is the next challenge, right? Is to not wake up immediately. For me, it feels like when I start to wake up, it feels like I'm almost being pulled backwards through like a gel. The image that I think of is if you've ever watched Stargate, There was a movie for it and there was a delightfully campy TV show for a while. Whenever they go through this, the Stargate is going through this, like this jelly plasma thing. I always feel like I'm getting pulled back through that and I feel like I can't breathe when I'm traveling through that, but if I can just pull myself back. I just like step back into it that I stay in the dream state. But if I let myself go back all the way through, the moment I get through that jelly, I'm awake. But I can go, okay, I'm gonna go right back to the same spot in that dream. That dream's still there as long as I don't fully get up, right? If I have to get up and go do something in the house you know, the cat broke something on the table or the. I go up to go use the restroom like that, then I'm, then I've left the dream. But if I haven't gone that far from it, I can go right back to the same spot. Mark: Right? Right. Well, that's cool. My feeling about being pulled out of the dream is much, it's much more vertical than it is horizontal. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: I feel like going deeper into the dream is literally sinking going lower. Whereas I feel like it's, it's like scuba diving in that it's about buoy. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and your natural buoyancy is to go back up and come out of the dream. And so the challenge becomes to make the motions or do whatever the effort is to stay down. Yucca: Interesting. Mark: So that's, that's more of how I experience it. Scuba diving is very dreamlike anyway. Just being down there or, or, or skin diving, snorkeling, same kind of thing. Being down there with all those fish and stuff in that very slow moving language environment because of the density of the water is very dreamlike to. Yucca: and your body being able to move in ways that you couldn't on dry land. Mark: Right. And it's a full body Yucca: twist around and move and, yeah. Mark: and it's a full body sensation. So, which is, you know, we tend, we tend to just sort of experience with our hands and faces and, you know, not, not have the rest of our bodies engaged so much. Yeah. So that's. That's a cool thing that I enjoy doing. The but, and, and this, this struggle to stay down happens when I realize that I'm dreaming. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That's the, that's the crisis point where it arises. And then I either win or lose, you know, I either stay down or I don. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: But if I do, then I feel I have a lot of freedom to just explore and to do thing, to fly and to jump off high buildings cuz I'm afraid of heights and stuff like that. So I have a, a catalog of many impossible experiences that I've had that are as vivid in my memory as my actual memory. Yucca: Right. Well, those are actual memories. But they aren't memories of things that you physically did. They're memories of things that, that your brain still thinks you did. Mark: Yes. Yucca: Yeah. It's, and it's amazing how the, how powerful the feelings. Can be, I mean, probably most of you have experienced, have you ever had a fight with someone in your dream and then woken up and you're still mad at them and you know that they didn't really say the thing, but you still feel it. You're still so mad at them. And it's like they, they would've never done that thing, whatever it was ever. Right? But, but you still experienced that. I think that's just so fascinating with, with dreams and, and I hope we. To learn more about why our brains do that. Mark: Yeah, that, I mean, that's the big question to me, the, I mean, the fact is we do it. There's a lot of descriptive literature about what it is, and. kind of patterns of how it works. But the big question of, but why, what exactly are we accomplishing by doing this? Even though I know in my own personal life that I do accomplish things in dreaming you know, I, I have experiences and I learn things. Yucca: And, you know, as you're saying that, it, it, it makes me think about other places in our lives where we have tools that we use, like meditation, like ritual. These are things that we're, we have some insight into with science. But largely we really don't understand them, but we can still, even though we, we don't yet understand them on that level, we can still figure out how to use them because they still exist. And that's, that's where the art part, that's where the craft part comes in. These are tools that we're using, Mark: I think of it as, Yucca: why. Yeah, Mark: oh, I'm sorry to Yucca: go. No, please. Mark: Well, I think of it as rather like the domestication of fire. We didn't understand what fire really was for. Hundreds of thousands of years, but we were still using it. We were making it, and we were transmitting it, and we were using it to cook our food and to illuminate our dwellings and to, you know, create heat in the wintertime and all kinds of stuff. And you know, I mean, I've heard it said that the most sim, the most mysterious and complex thing that humanity has ever discovered is the human brain. You know, there are the, the range of possible manifestations of behavior that come out of human brains is just astounding, and we don't understand very much about it at all because it's very hard to observe it while it's. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And to translate the experience of it working, which is consciousness into some kind of objective data about what that process is. So, yeah, I mean, I would, I, I believe we will learn more about that. I don't know that it'll ever be completely done and dusted, but Yucca: I don't think science works that way, frankly. Mark: No. Yucca: that the more we know, the more questions we have, and that is beautiful. That is just amazing. Mark: About simple things like how fireworks, you know, we, we, we can get pretty good answers that don't leave. A lot of questions left. Yucca: To on a certain scale. Right, right. We can go. Okay, so we're talking about the splitting of molecules and the recombination of, but let's start talking about, okay, those, but why were those molecules bonded to each other in the first place? Mark: Right. Yucca: What are they made of? Mark: is a molecule and, and what's that made of? And then what are those made of? And then what are those Yucca: Right. And why? Okay, so why so it's doing this because of this particular force. Why does that force exist? Is that force connected to something else? You know, there's all, it just keeps going and going and maybe, maybe there's a simple answer to all of it, but I think we're a ways away from finding that if it Mark: Well cer certainly all the quantum stuff, there's plenty of questions left, plenty of vast. Vast acreage of unknowns. But as you say, within a given scale context, you can understand how something works, and I doubt that we will understand why the human brain works even at its own scale, much, much less at deeper levels. But even at its own scale, there's. When you have trillions of informational connections working at incredibly fast speeds, I just think it's gonna be impossible to ever chase those things down. Yucca: Yeah, well, and each one being, as far as we know, very different The way that the, which connections my brain makes versus your brain. Mark: Well, right. I'm, and I'm just talking about one brain. I'm not talking about brains in general. I'm just talking about one brain. Yucca: but we have, there are things that we have learned, right? Like learning about the different, you know, kinds of connections and neurotransmitters and the, you know, which particular elements do we use in order, you know, all that stuff. Mark: Sure, Yucca: so much progress. Mark: tend to be associated with particular senses or particular processes? Yucca: Oh, but then they go and change on us because that's what we find. That's amazing. When, and not in all the cases, but there's many cases where we found when someone's had brain damage in one area and then another part of the brain starts to perform the function that usually would've been in that part of the brain and wow. Mark: I read a, a fascinating article by a woman, God, where was this? The Atlantic, I think. And she literally has half of a brain. Yucca: Hmm. Okay. Mark: it was discovered in adulthood when she had an m r I, that one in, Yucca: born this Mark: she was born this way and she's of perfectly normal intelligence. She, you know, she has an absolutely ordinary life, Yucca: Okay. Mark: but half of her brain never developed. Yucca: What's filling in the physical space where the other half would be. Okay. Mark: Yeah. To reverse spinal fluid. Yucca: Yeah. Wow. Mark: Pretty awesome, Yucca: pretty popular now. Mark: Yeah, Yucca: a lot of Mark: lots of studies and, and all that kind of stuff, Yucca: yeah. How interesting. Hmm. Mark: and I mean, that's fully coordinating both sides of her body. That's, you know, doing everything that a brain does and it's just doing it with half as much. Yucca: Wow. Have they checked in with siblings to see if they, that Mark: don't, I don't remember honestly, it, it was a while back, but it was a pretty wild article. I should try to find it. Yucca: Yeah, that's, that's interesting. This stuff is fun, Mark: It is, it is. And one of the places where we encounter the mysteries about the brain is in dreaming. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Because dreaming is a mysterious process. Why am I being shown these images? Why am I finding my, yeah, why am I finding myself immersed in, you know, these particular situations and these particular, you know, colors and objects and characters and plot lines, and, you know, what, what is all that? Yucca: Why are those two people actually one person, I don't know how this happens for you, but sometimes characters in my dream are not really, they're rarely one person. There's several different people at once. Mark: I don't have that at all. Yucca: no, you'll have a, there'll be someone, okay. For me, they're, they will be several different people and sometimes they'll think about, so why was it that so-and-so was also so-and-so? Like what overlap am I seeing there? Or did it not really matter for the dream, who the other person Mark: are, these are recognizable people from your life or they are characters that were created in the dream, Yucca: Well, people from my life, but also movie characters and think characters. Either a, a human, there's somebody, whether that's somebody is a real person or not. Right. Like there could, there, for instance, is making up there could be Santa, right? Like there's, you know, never met Santa. There's, as far as I know, no real Santa, but Santa can show up in my dream and Santa can also be my second grade teacher at the same time in my. But that's just, you know, why, right? That's one of those interesting things to think about. What's there's, there's gotta be some connection there, or maybe not, but me trying to figure out what that connection is might reveal to me something about my feelings about my second grade teacher, you know? Or why am I thinking about, why am I thinking about her right now? You know, how many decades later? Mark: right. Yucca: So, Mark: Yeah, it's really fascinating stuff, and I'm sure that our listeners have a very broad range of different kinds of experiences as well. You know, if you want to email us at the wonder podcast cues gmail.com or comment on this Yucca: you're listening to it online? Mark: listening to it on Yucca: yeah. Mark: You can go ahead and comment there. You know, what was your most vivid dreaming experience? What's been your most amazing experience? In the dreaming realm because it really is a pretty remarkable thing that we do. We spend a lot of our time asleep and, Yucca: It's glorious. Love it. Mark: we don't spend as much, I don't spend as much time asleep as I wish I did, Yucca: and that's one that I, that I have looked into the research on, which is very distressing about the sleep deprivation especially in the United States. Very worrisome with, with teenagers in terms of what's happening with their sleep deprivation. It's Mark: my local school districts here just made a ruling that they were not going to start classes until I think, eight 30 in the morning, maybe nine, Yucca: Oh good. Mark: classes had been starting at seven 30 and it's just, that's not good for a developing marine. Yucca: it isn't. Well, and, and then this is one area where there's research as well into chronotypes. And it, this seems to be pretty universal across cultures that the, that teenagers. Will naturally stay up later and wake up later. That seems to be, that's not just coming from our, like our cultural stereotypes that seems to be across cultures. And getting less sleep than we need has a negative impact on so many different levels for us, and it increases risk of all kinds of things. So I, I think it's ridiculous to. To be making teenagers get up and be being sleep deprived because of that. And I know we can go, oh, we're supposed to be teaching them, you know, responsibility and all of that, and it's like, hmm. Not at the cost of their physical and emotional wellbeing and their ability to learn, because you're not gonna learn as well when you're sleep deprived. Mark: Right. Yucca: And what, what are we teaching them that them fitting into? These particular hours that we've for some reason chosen that probably have more to do with like the hours of operation of factories. We care more about that than their wellbeing. I don't know. That's, there's my soapbox. Sorry, I'll Mark: Well, I don't dis, I don't disagree with any of it. It, it certainly, Yucca: frankly, eight 30 is still Mark: I'm just glad that at least. I'm just glad that some of the more progressive districts are starting to pay attention to this research and to think about, and parents complain because parents want the childcare, right? They, they want to get out of the house in time to get to work. And I mean, you know, just the whole system is interconnected. Levels of dysfunction. Yucca: Yeah, that's a whole nother area. Mark: It is, and it's not a particularly cheery area, so let's move on. Yucca: We should. Yes. Now actually there was a very cheery, exciting thing that you wanted to announce. Mark: Yes. We've talked about this before, but tickets for the atheopagan Web Weaving online Conference, which will be June 4th of this year. The tickets will go on sale next Saturday. April 1st. Tickets are from 10 to $50. There are scholarship tickets for nothing to spend anything. Nobody's turned away for lack of funds. We're encouraging giving at least 20 so that we can cover the expenses of the conference, but you can get information about it at. AP society.org/a WW 2023 and we'll put that in the, Yucca: And the show Mark: in the podcast Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And you can download the program there and look offerings of workshops and activities and all that kind of stuff, it's gonna be a really great opportunity. To see other people that are following these paths and exchange information and learn stuff. So I really hope you'll take a look and consider coming. Yucca: and both of us are doing workshops, so. Mark: That's right. I'm doing one on the clerical path. And you're doing one for kids, right? Yucca: I am, yeah. I'm gonna do a kids circle, so, yep. Mark: great. Yeah. Exciting. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: yeah that's two months away, but tickets will go on sale next week and you can look at the program it's downloadable in either PDF or format. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You can look at those, Yucca: And it does always help us to get people to know ahead of time how many people to be expecting. Mark: That's right. If, if all the registration comes in at the last minute, it could be complicated for us. Our current Zoom account, this will be done over Zoom. Our current Zoom account allows a hundred attendees. If we have 98 attendees three days before the event and then another 300 people register in those last couple of days, we're gonna have to call Zoom up at work capacity and you know, all that kind of stuff. So, Yucca: So we'd of course love to have Mark: ask you to get your tickets early. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yes. Yeah, for sure. We would be, You know, arrange for more, more seats with Zoom. But it would be a lot better if we could do that a week in advance rather than two days in advance. So get your tickets early. Yucca: Yeah, and we'll see you there. And as always, thanks for hanging out with us on today's episode, and we'll see you next week. Mark: Have a great one.    

The Re-Enchantment of Life: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/re-enchantment-of-life/ The Inner Critic: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/the-inner-critic-1612153312/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E10 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, mark, Yucca: and I'm Yucca, Mark: and today we are going to talk about paganism and imagination. Yucca: right? And this is a, this is a really important and key topic in a lot of different ways and it gets approached From many different directions in, again, different ways, but we don't always, we don't always talk about what it it really is, and that that's what we're doing. Mark: Yeah. And particularly in kind of mainstream pagan circles, we. Because what is imagined and what is more likely to be true based on evidence often gets all jumbled together. We, we don't actually acknowledge that we're working with the imagination Yucca: And there's a negative connotation to it too. Like, oh, you're just imagining Mark: right. Yucca: right? Like if you suggest that, that, that's almost, that's an insult, right? Oh, that's just your imagination. Mark: right? Yeah. We say it's just your imagination, right? But when you think about it, why just imagination is amazing. Imagination is arguably the thing that makes humans different than any other creatures that we're aware of. Our, our ability to. Envision the abstract Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: to to have ideation that that innovates, you know, that comes up with novel stories, novel inventions, novel concepts, novel philosophies, all of those things. That's all imaginations. Yucca: Right, and even though things might be imagination, they can still be very, very meaningful to us. , think about your favorite movie or book that you knew that those characters didn't exist. Those things never happened, and yet it's really meaningful and impactful to you, and it had a, as a, a very real response in your body and your mind. Mark: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, there have been a couple of times in my life when I have actually fallen in love with a movie character. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And it's been painful for, you know, two, three days until it wears off. Because I really wanted to know that person. I wanted to see that person, and they don't exist. So, and, and you know, this was when I was younger mostly, but now that I'm old and cynical, it doesn't happen so much. , but You know, that's the same physiological response that happens in response to a real person. Yucca: right. Mark: And that, I think, goes to this question of why we can confuse the imaginary with the real because our, our minds are not very good at distinguishing. Between what's imaginary and what's real. We, we react in exactly the same ways our brains fire in exactly the same ways in response to stories or ideas that they do in response to real world events. Yucca: Right. And we rewrite memories, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: And each person's interpretation of the same event can be very different, Mark: and it will get more different over time as they reinforce their take over and over again. Every time they recall that memory, they rewrite it and it get e evolves a little bit. Yucca: It's telephone, but that, did you ever play that game as a kid? Right. You one person whispers and then it whispers to the next person and next person and see how it changes by the time it gets to the last person. And sometimes they're close, and sometimes, well, sometimes one of the kids will purposely put something fake in there, but sometimes it transforms, right? Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: And our, our minds do that. Our imagination does that. Mark: They certainly do. Yeah. So, one of the things that we do, especially as adults to try to distinguish these things is that we, we identify the times when we are doing what's called suspension of disbelief, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: right? So we go into a movie, we suspend our disbelief for a couple of hours, and we submerge ourselves into the story that's happening on the. And our awareness leaves the fact that we're sitting in a cushion chair in a dark room, looking at a screen and listening to soundtrack it, immerses in the events of the movie as if they're happening to us and. Then when the movie's over, then we stop suspending our disbelief and we leave. And our experience of the movie, in terms of its quality is often a function of how deeply we were affected by that suspension of disbelief. Right? And this is something that is really an issue for those of us who are atheopagan or other non feist pagans. Naturalistic pagans, right? Because for folks that are entering our community from the atheistic side, all this imaginary stuff can be very uncomfortable. Yucca: right. Mark: You know, the we're looking for evidence, right? We're, we're looking for proof that whatever it is that we're talking about actually exists or it's not worth talking about is the, the culture. Yucca: assumption. Mark: Many, many atheistic circles, and I'm here to say, first of all, it is worth talking about because it's core to the nature of humanity that we are these imagining creatures and there's a lot of value that we can have out of our. Experiences and, and in our lives by cultivating imagination and using it appropriately to have experiences like in rituals. Yucca: Right. so there's, it really is something that we can very consciously use, right? And it could be in a ritual, but it can also be there's, we, you know, we did an episode a few years back about bringing the magic into everyday. Mark: Yeah. Enchanting the world. Yucca: exactly. There we go. We'll, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Because that's definitely one of the ways that we can use imagination that really serves us right. When we're careful, when we're not careful. Sometimes our imagination can be harmful to us. Right? We imagine something that, you know, that that person is mad at us and they, they were just tired. Right? Or we imagine. That the shadow, you know, when we're little, that those shadows are actually monsters that are gonna come and get us. But then we can also use it for okay, ritual. We can use it to bring a little bit of enchantment to our life. We can really enrich ourselves. Mark: Yes. Yes. And so for those of us that are naturalistic pagans, a lot of what we're doing is walking this careful line. Where we're not falling over the edge into worlds of imagination and fantasy and thinking that they're real. And I know that there are gonna be people that are gonna be mad at me about saying that, but you know, the evidence at least would suggest that God's an instrumental magic and ghosts and spirits and stuff like that aren't Yucca: realm of ferry or. Mark: Yeah. That they aren't really. They're wonderful stories. And they're tremendous flights of imagination that we can work with, we can do cool things with. But they don't exist in the same sense that rock exists. And so here we are as naturalistic pagans, carefully walking that edge where we say, all right, we value evidence. Right. We value what's provable. That said, we are the storytelling ape homos, right? Some wonderful anthropologist, I don't remember the name. Called us The Storytelling Ape Yucca: I like that better than Sapien sap. Mark: yeah, me too. Yucca: Oh Mark: Yeah, we're super wise, wise, twice. Yucca: Yes. We're wise, wise, we're so wise. Really believe us. Seriously. Mark: Judging by our works, maybe not so much. But we are definitely storytelling creatures and it is essential to the culture making of every society that we tell stories and that we have narratives that inform our values and our worldviews. So Yucca: Well, and we even do that in science, right? That's how we understand. That's and it's just what, where are we getting the information for the story? But we're still telling it all the same and we're still putting in We're still putting in metaphor and poetry and things to help us understand and try and imagine what happened 13.8 billion years ago or something like that. Mark: Right. Right. And we use. We often have used the cultural narratives that dominate our societies, especially in the past. You know, the Newtonian physics, for example. The kind of clockwork universe of everything, you know, working in, you know, neatly meshing little systems that all follow these laws. And a lot of that was true and useful. But it turns out it was a little more complicated than. Yucca: And we do that today when we talk about how our brains are wired, right? We talk about them as, and we talk about long-term short-term memory. You know, we talk about things as if they're computers now. So, and we're just taking those that. Narrative and, and applying it in a way that is useful. But as you're saying, it may not be completely accurate, but it serves the purpose. And we do that with you wanna describe the motion of a ball through the air? Well, you're never gonna be able to actually perfectly describe it, but you can get close enough and that still serves a purpose, Mark: right. A model is a story. Ultimately, a model is a, a narration of. Activity over time, which is what a story is. And so, you know, we, when, when we're talking about what we believe to be true, we use stories that are supported by evidence. But when we're talking about expressing our inner realities, our inner self, our personalities, When we're talking about developing culture or artistic expression, or working with our psychology to transform ourselves in some way, whether it's to transform our emotions or to heal our wounds, or to, you know, do any of those powerful things, the world of imagination and storytelling becomes this powerful. Built-in system that is encoded into the way our human organisms are constructed that we can use to powerful effect. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And that's what we believe as naturalistic pagans right now. It's a little bit different in the mainstream pagan community where all that stuff may be tossed together and you have people that believe that they're elves. There's a lot of wishful think. In the mainstream pagan community, people who believe in things because they really want them to be true, which isn't a criterion that naturalistic pagans use for determining what we believe to be true. Yucca: Right. Mark: and I mean, there's pros and cons to that. I mean, there's, there can certainly be a lot of wonder and magic and enchantment and. You know, fascination about believing in, you know, that kind of fantasy stuff. But I've also seen people really get on the wrong side of it with a lot of fear and paranoia about, you know, hexes and psychic attacks and stuff like that, that they need to do wards against. And, you know, it creates anxiety at the least. And I've seen that actually cross over into real paranoia. You know, kind of textbook paranoia, including the the delusions of grandeur of thinking that somebody, that you're so important that somebody's gonna go to the trouble to try to hex you . But you know, if that's the world people wanna live in and that's, that's the way they decide that they want to navigate their life, then great. More power to. It's just not the way we do it. Yucca: Sounds exhausting to me. Person. Mark: Yeah, so much. So much uncertainty. So much. Always, you know, there, there could always be something mysterious out there that's about to get ya. I, I wouldn't wanna live that way myself. So talking about imagination and we, we implement imagination in our rituals. Many of our rituals are, are keyed to stories, right? Like a healing ritual. Okay? This thing happened to me. I'm wounded by it. Or it embedded something in me. Right. You know, faith healers do that whole thing about removing things from the body. Or traditional indigenous practitioners sometimes will remove darts or other sort of spirit things from the body in order to take the harm away from the patient. Right. Yucca: Right. We can I share real quick an example of one that we did last night? We so we have a wood stove and we still chilly enough that we're using it. And so we took the log that was gonna go in and spat on it. So there was a particular emotion that we were trying to like release, and so we spat on it. So it was something physically, visually coming from our body, and then we wrote on the wood what it was and put it into the fire. So that we could transform that into the heat that was going to support the family and take care of us during the winter. Right. And that was our story of we're taking this thing out of our body, putting it in and using it and transforming it into something else, Mark: Sure, and and I would imagine that that felt great that it worked, Yucca: At least for my part, I feel pretty good about it. ? Yeah. Mark: Whereas if you are like, you know, an atheist coming brand new into our community, you might look at that and go, wow, that's super weird. Yucca: Oh yeah. Go spit on some firewood. What are you doing Mark: What are you doing? But the answer is what you're doing is you're working with your consciousness, you know, and. You know, our consciousness works very well with metaphors and similes. It works very well with the concept of correspondences where, okay, I am going to establish a connection between myself and this piece of firewood by expelling something from myself that is inherent, that is of my body onto this firewood, which means that now we're connected, right? And I'm gonna write a purpose, a goal, an outcome on the firewood. We're gonna put it in the fire to undergo a transformational process, which will radiate energy that I can feel, and that's going to cause a transformation in my psychology. That is actually a pretty logical story. It doesn't have evidential support in the way. You know, the story of general Relativity has evidential support, but it has a coherence which can totally work with our, with, with the human mind. That makes a lot of sense to me. Yucca: Yeah, you just accept your certain premises and then it all logically makes sense from. Mark: mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , and that's what we, oh, go ahead. Yucca: what we do. Like when we watch a movie you were talking about earlier, we sit down to watch that movie. We go, okay, this is a movie in which there are dragons and magic, and there's the like, and we accept that there are dragons and therefore if there are dragons, oh well it would make sense that people would ride on their backs or whatever happens, right? We just, it all makes sense based on those starting assumptions. But we're gonna make up some, we're gonna. In that case, I decided to imagine that there was a connection between me and that wood. Right. And I, there was a conscious choice to imagine that, but it still worked to imagine it. It still had the impact. Right. Even though, okay. Yeah. Literal there. I'm not literally putting an emotion. An emotion isn't a thing that you can put on a piece of wood. Mark: No, an emotion is, but an emotion is a psychological process. And psychological processes are real. They aren't real the way rocks are real, but they're real within the, the ongoing network of activity that's happening in our brains. Right. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And. You know, this may be a whole other episode about what do we mean when we talk about what's real, right? Because the imagined has a reality to it. It's just not, it, it's a, it's a belief reality rather than a factual reality that's there, there's a difference there. You know what I say to folks that are new to the podcast or new to our communities who are coming from atheistic scientific backgrounds you know, rational evidence-based perspectives on the world. This is, this is the tricky, well, there are two things. There's, there are two, there are two tricky parts to get your mind around. The first one. That the use of these imagination tools can have real world impacts for yourself and your life. The second is getting comfortable with using them, because typically what happens is there's a critic voice in your head, which begins to yammer about how stupid it all is, and it really undermines. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Your your confidence in using these tools at first, but that voice can be worked with. We, we did an episode a while back on the critic voice that I really encourage people to go listen to. Yucca: We'll link that in the notes as well. Mark: Great, great. And over time and with experience, you will find that that voice fades and you become. Much more confident as a practitioner, as a magician, as a, whatever you want to call it. As someone who uses these psychological tools to benefit themselves and to benefit others. Yucca: Yeah. Frankly, I think that's pretty inspiring. I think that's a pretty kind of hopeful way of approaching. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I mean, as when I, when I stepped away from the Pagan community, after I had some really bad experiences it wasn't very long before I started realizing how impoverished my life had become because it lost all that inspiring stuff. It all of that, all of those practices, all of those rituals, all of those. School witchy things, all of those psychological helps to myself had been removed and they, and they'd not only been removed from me, but they'd been removed from people that I used to do stuff with as well. So, it was good to realize that, that none of that was necessary. It was just a matter of kind of figuring out what your terms are. Yucca: When you say none of that, you're referring to the Mark: to the departure. Yucca: okay. Mark: Yeah, the, none of, none of that. Leaving it all behind was necessary. I had, I had thrown the baby out with the bathwater and what I needed to do was to go and recover the baby and, you know, dry off the bathwater, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, do we want to give some more examples of kind of differences between the, the imaginal and the Yucca: Yeah. Well, I think, I mean when we talk about ritual, that's what we're doing. We're imagining, Mark: mm-hmm. Yucca: right? But what about, are there some places outside of ritual that you think that is helpful in. Mark: I think there are lots of little techniques that people use that are kind of like mini rituals. You know, they may not go through a set of formal steps, but certainly affirmations, you know, those just, just simple messaging to yourself in encouraging ways. You know, whether it's before, like I have a job interview next week, I have two job interviews next week, in fact, and, you know, I will kind of psych myself up you know, before those meetings. You know, I'm competent. I know what I'm doing, I'm likable, I'm happy. I'm you know, those things that will make me appealing as a job prospect. As a job candidate. I think there are lots of things that people do that are small that give them benefit. In my initial essay, I write about athletes with Lucky Jerseys or. Yucca: TED bands or whatever. Mark: Shoes or you know, a lucky way to tie their shoe laces or, you know, whatever those things are. And you can look at that, you know, from a strictly dry scientific standpoint and say, well that doesn't make any sense. You know, the way you tie your shoes is gonna make you run any faster. But studies, numerous studies have shown, actually it. Because it increases your level of confidence in your capacity Yucca: Right. Mark: and confidence is such a huge arbiter of success or failure. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: when you're talking about fractions of a second in speed, making the difference between somebody qualifying for the Olympics or not, every little bit matters. Yucca: Yeah. Every fraction of a second. Cause that adds up. Mm. Mark: So, yeah, I, I think there's lots of things that people do and they don't even really realize. Many of them don't even really realize that what they're doing is a, a use of imagination in order to give themselves a boost. Yucca: Hmm. There's another one that I thought of while you were talking about that, and that's daydreaming. That's something that I think most of us do. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Some more to other than others, but that, that we're imagining, we're telling stories in our head, and I know for me that the, what narratives I'm telling when I'm daydreaming have a big impact on how I feel throughout the day. Right. If I do a day, if I'm daydreaming and I'm, you know, kind of doing it, something that's like an argument or a conflict or daydreaming about, you know, how am I gonna handle some disaster or something, I don't. Feel the same as when I'm daydreaming about something that feels a little bit more empowering or in which I'm behaving in my daydream in a, in a the way that I want to be. And so there is a lot of influence we have in directing those daydreams to influence what it just feels like to be us as we're going through our day. Mark: For sure. That's a great example. And actually, regular dreams, while sleeping can be very similar. I mean, how many times do we wake up feeling sad or anxious or happy or, you know, just depending on what the, Yucca: What the dream Mark: what the dream was. Yeah.  Yucca: That's a topic we should do soon. I don't think we've ever done a Mark: When I'm dreaming. No, we haven't. We Yucca: really do that. Mark: We should. Yeah. Yeah, let's, let's write that down somewhere. Yucca: Yeah. I think I could just cut you off there. What were you saying? Mark: oh, I, I don't know. Nothing important. The, I think that this topic right here, About differentiating between the imaginal and the literal and being able to walk the line that incorporates both so that your feet are on the ground in a realistic manner, and you're not spinning off into fantasies about stuff that may not exist, but at the same time plunging ourselves into the imaginal within. Within a container that we choose to make changes and improve the quality of our lives. This is really the central operating principle of naturalistic paganism more, more than anything else, I think. Even reverence for the earth. I mean, reverence for the Earth is what makes us pagan as opposed to say Buddhist, you know, working with our psychology. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: But what differentiates us from mainstream paganism is this, I would say, Yucca: Yeah. I see. It's a lot to think about Mark: It is, it is. I, I was talking about this before we started recording. I wrote a blog post about cursing in hexes this last month, which you can find at atheopagan dot org. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , we talked a little bit about it last episode too. Mark: We did. Yeah. I, I think that's what inspired me to write the blog post. But this, this whole question of the imaginary versus the literal and factual comes up again and again and again. And it's definitely the friction point between, you know, literal theists and naturalists. And I think that some of that may have to do with some degree of misunderstanding about what the naturalistic position really is. It's not that we're discounting all of those experiences. Those experiences are really valuable. It's just that we're not, we're not populating our cosmology with these. Figures that appear to arise from the imagination. Yucca: Right. We're, we're framing our understanding of it in a very different way. Mark: Yes. Yucca: Yep. Mark: So I encourage our listeners to kind of kick this around in your own heads and, you know, where, where does imagination play a role in your practice, in your. Kind of day-to-day operations. And where, where does a more evidence-based approach figure? The, because I think coming to be comfortable with this idea of kind of code switching between, between, you know, the world of imagination and fantasy and storytelling and. Metaphor and symbol and myth, all of that incredibly rich, multiple worlds of amazing stuff, and yet remaining tethered to the ground in a, in a factual and evidentiary based way. It. That's really kind of the core of the art in the naturalistic world, I think. Yucca: Yeah. Well this has been a really interesting one. Thanks, mark. Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Yucca. I think it's interesting too, and the, the more I think about it, the more interesting it gets . I, I love talking about this kind of thing, so thank you. Yucca: Yeah, and we really appreciate all of you being here with us, and look forward to seeing you next week. Mark: Yeah. Remember, you can always reach us at The Wonder Podcast Qs or the Wonder Podcast queues short for questions@gmail.com. Yucca: Okay, see you next Mark: you next week.      

Gamers on their way to a convention run afoul of violent criminals on the run.  Can they use their "skillz" to survive? [warning - some violence, language, and mature situations] Written and Produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Abby - Beverly Poole Mark - Brian Lomatewama Justin - Mathias Rebne Morgan Brianna - Lyndsey Thomas Tyler - Michael Faigenblum Clark - Brandon O'Brien News Report - Gwendolyn Gieseke-Woodard Man - Bill Hollweg Music of DARKEST OF THE HILLSIDE THICKETS!  used with permission Show theme and Incidental Music:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Recorded with the assistance of Ryan Hirst of Neohoodoo Studio Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's a van on a road in the middle of nowhere, can't you tell?" _______________________________________ EXIT STRATEGY Cast: Mark - Game Master, in a wheelchair Abby - strategy girl Justin - the driver, Mark's brother Brianna - nurse, dating Tyler Tyler - wiry LARPer, dating Brianna Clark - a criminal Thug - another criminal SOUND     FOOTSTEPS OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a car on a stretch of road in the middle of nowhere, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND      INSIDE CAR NOISES SOUND     Music plays on the radio SOUND     "BING" FROM THE DASHBOARD SOUND     Justin turns down the stereo JUSTIN     We're riding E.  [up] Eyes peeled for a gas station, everybody! MARK     Hey, Justin, remember when it used to be sooo cool to cross the state line? JUSTIN     Yeah - some things just lose their charm as you get older, little bro. MARK     And can drink legally in your own state... ABBY     Don't drink and game.  It dulls your edge. JUSTIN     You've got enough edge for all of us, Abby.  BRIANNA     [slightly off, giggles] I would too. TYLER     [slightly off] That is so great.  You are so great. ABBY     You do realize we can hear you? JUSTIN     Keep it clean back there.  I'll lose my damage deposit on the van if it comes back stained. BRIANNA     Ew!  We were just-- TYLER     [defiant] I was just telling Bree that if she ever got possessed by a demon, I would totally kill her. BRIANNA     [squeaky] Isn't that sweet? ABBY     [baffled] Yeah.  [whispered] What do you think brought on this declaration of undying love? JUSTIN     Tyler brought his DVD player.  I think they're watching Evil Dead. ABBY     Oh. [that explains it] MARK     You guys are all going to help with the "Super Five" tournament, right?  I can count on you? ABBY     Well-- MARK     Well? ABBY     [hesitant] I was checking, and the final round of the "AfterBlast" championship is in the same time slot. MARK     [excited] You really think you have a chance? ABBY     Hell yeah.  I plan to kick ass and take names.  MARK     That rocks.  JUSTIN     I-- I noticed you were the only - um - ABBY     Discernibly female? JUSTIN     Yeah, that - name on the semi-finals roster.  ABBY     Yup.  Time to represent. MUSIC JUSTIN     Pit stop! MARK     Man, you are this close to losing your deposit. JUSTIN     Shit.  Your chair's packed! BRIANNA     I got you, Mark.  SOUND     DOOR SLIDES OPEN, SHIFTING SOUNDS AS SHE GETS OUT SOUND     FRONT DOOR OPENS BRIANNA     Come on, then. TYLER     [teasing, going off] No groping my girl, now. MARK     Hey!  My hand slipped.  Once. BRIANNA     Girl. [snort]  I am a woman. [grunts as she gets Mark on her back]  OK, hold on.  Tyler, got the door? TYLER     [off] Getting it! SOUND     QUICK FOOTSTEPS ON CONCRETE SOUND     DOOR OPENS. MEN'S ROOM SOUND     FLUSH, STALL DOOR OPENS MAN     Hey!  You can't be in here! BRIANNA     Puh-lease.  I'm a nurse.  Almost.  [sarcastic] And you should get that looked at. MUSIC AMBIANCE     NIGHTTIME ROAD, VERY QUIET MUSIC VERY QUIET ON THE STEREO JUSTIN     [quiet] Hey Abby? ABBY     [quiet, tired] Hmm? JUSTIN     Just wanted to see if you're awake. ABBY     Really?  Nice of you to check. JUSTIN     Well... I'm not sure how much farther it is to the motel, and I was starting to fade a bit.  Help keep me on the road? ABBY     [half yawning] Sure.  What's on your mind? JUSTIN     Any chance you and I - you know - sometime? ABBY     [half a laugh]  I've sworn a blood oath not to date any man who can't beat me in a fair game of AfterBlast. JUSTIN     Really? ABBY     Something like that.  No offense, OK?  You're nice.  But we're kind of different worlds. JUSTIN     I used to game--  ABBY     Used to.  You traded in your dice for the corporate world. JUSTIN     It's not that bad-- [sudden change]  Whoah. ABBY     What? JUSTIN     Nothing.  Just - there's headlights behind us.  They weren't there a minute ago. ABBY     Must have come round a corner.  SOUND     CREAK, TURN ABBY     [turned to look] Hmm.  How fast are we going? JUSTIN     Why? ABBY     They're catching up.  Should I wake everybody? JUSTIN     Well...  if there's a crash, they're better off asleep.  Relaxed.  It's a fact - why drunks walk away more often-- ABBY     It's still coming.  Can we get off the road?  JUSTIN     There just isn't any place to go!  The ditches are ... gaping black chasms! ABBY     What's our speed? JUSTIN     Seventy.  So far. SOUND     GROWLING ROAR, GETTING CLOSER ABBY     How much can you push a minivan? JUSTIN     Don't know.  It's a rental. ABBY     All right. [thinking]  Turn off the headlights. JUSTIN     What?  ABBY      There's a good moon - the road is straight as far as I can see right now - can you hold the wheel straight while you're blinded? SOUND     ROARING REVVING APPROACHES JUSTIN      I... guess-- yes. SOUND     HEADLIGHTS TURN OFF JUSTIN     [heavy breathing] ABBY     Once our eyes adjust, we can look for a turnoff - in the dark, with the headlights, we won't see it until it's too late.  JUSTIN     Does that work? ABBY     I don't know.  Yes!  There, to the left, a road. JUSTIN     We're going too fast! ABBY     Start the turn early, and run in at an angle.  It should work.  MARK     [half asleep] Yeah, the roll factors are considerably less-- JUSTIN     Roll factors? MARK     "Street Wars," core manual.  The turn gauge modifiers. JUSTIN     Whatever, here we go! SOUND     SCREECH MUSIC AMBIANCE     OUTSIDE SOUND     TICKING OF THE ENGINE MARK     I'm suitably impressed. JUSTIN     Thanks.  Me too. ABBY     It worked! JUSTIN     A flat tire-- ABBY     Just one. MARK     --is not bad, all things considered. ABBY     [encouraging] Besides you missed the ditch, and the car didn't even flip. MUSIC SOUND     ON THE ROAD AGAIN TYLER     Doesn't this whole thing remind anyone of a movie? JUSTIN     Movie?  What, Texas Chainsaw Massacre? ABBY     Wo!  We do have the right carload for leatherface. MARK     Hey, Justin, don't pick up any strangers, kay?  I don't wanna be the first to die. TYLER     No....  OK, think.  A brother and sister in a car, in the middle of nowhere-- BRIANNA     [helping] In the middle of the day-- TYLER     Run off the road by a huge spooky truck--?  Hmm? MARK     That wasn't a truck.  ABBY     It wasn't? MARK     While you guys were watching the road, I watched it go by - It was big and square-- TYLER     A truck. MARK     No.  Better than that - I saw words on the side. BRIANNA     A truck? MARK     [sigh] Nope.  I must have made a perfect success on my perception roll, though - it was an armored car.  JUSTIN     In the middle of the night?  In the middle of nowhere? ABBY     Radio.  There must be something. SOUND     RADIO ON, SURF CHANNELS, STOP ON AN AD MARK     I like N-P-R. ABBY     News channel, bub. [Moment just listening.] JUSTIN     OK, enough with the ads - give us some news. TYLER     If this was a movie, the minute we switched over, the news bulletin would come on right then.  Cheesy, eh? BRIANNA     It's just a genre convention - a way of condensing all this boring time spent listening to-- JUSTIN     Shh. SOUND     TURNS VOLUME UP NEWS     ...the third armored car hijacking this year, and the second one with fatalities.  Three security guards were injured in the attack-- JUSTIN     Wow.  We should call someone. ABBY     Already on it.  SOUND     CELL PHONE BEEPS ABBY     Damn.  No reception. NEWS     --two are in critical condition.  Pursuers lost the car in a high speed chase when the hijackers realized they were being tracked and dumped the onboard GPS at the side of the road.  JUSTIN     Well, the motel must be close.  They'll have a phone. NEWS     Police believe that one of the hijackers may have been injured in the attack... SOUND      CLICK RADIO OFF - no music here MARK      I thought we were supposed to reach it by ten? JUSTIN     Well, with all you small bladdered people, we had a lot more potty breaks than I allowed for.  And, o'course, getting run off the road...  Changing the tire... TYLER     There was that. BRIANNA     Think your Uncle Joey'll give us a discount for coming in so late - half the night, half price? TYLER     I'll ask him.  [yawns] In the morning, though. MUSIC SOUND     CAR, SNORING FROM ALL BUT JUSTIN SOUND     BUMP, THEN CAR PULLS TO A STOP JUSTIN     [trying to stay awake noise]  Holy crap, I think we're here. ABBY     [waking]  Mmm?  Oh good... JUSTIN     One moment and I'll go and check in... ABBY     No, I'll get it.  Gotta pee anyway.  Small bladder.  [yawns] All that. JUSTIN     [receding] I didn't mean.... SOUND     CAR DOOR OPENS AND SHUTS SOUND     FOOTSTEPS ON GRAVEL, DOOR, BELL JINGLES ABBY     Hello?  Hello?  SOUND     RINGS DESK BELL SOUND     DOOR OPENS SOMEWHERE ABBY     [calling]  Look, I'm sorry to be coming in so late!  We had car trouble.  Can we get a room?  [beat]  Hello?  SOUND     FLUSH OF A TOILET ABBY     [needs to pee] Oh, jeez.  [deep shaky breath]  Hello? SOUND     DOOR OPENS CLARK     Hey.  Sorry about that.  I was catching a few.  You want a room? ABBY     Yeah, my friends and I - if you have a room with a couple of queens, we'll be fine. CLARK     Uh, sure.  Probably.  [looking around]  Nobody really here, tonight. ABBY     Could we have the one out on the end, then? CLARK     Don't see why not... um... ABBY     Says here it's room 14. CLARK     There you go.  [unconvincing laugh] So tired my eyes won't focus. SOUND     KEY SLAPPED ON TABLE ABBY     How much? CLARK     Oh, pay when you leave.  ABBY     Hmm.  Are you Joey? CLARK     Joey who? ABBY     [sharp intake of breath, then faking being ditzy]  Sorry - you look a lot like the cousin of a friend of mine.  CLARK     I get that a lot. SOUND     FOOTSTEPS, DOOR OPENS ABBY     Oh, can I use your bathroom?  It's kind of an emergency. CLARK     [too sharp] No!  I  mean, sorry - no can do.  Absolutely against policy.  Too bad you didn't get a room closer in, eh? ABBY     [flat, suspicious] Yeah. SOUND     DOOR SHUTS, JINGLE MUSIC SOUND     HOTEL ROOM DOOR SHUTS, FEET STUMBLE AROUND, BAGS DOWN, ETC. SOUND     BODY FLOPS ONTO BED JUSTIN     I am dead.  As driver, I call a bed.  SOUND     WHEELCHAIR ROLLS MARK     I'm with you.  SOUND     FLUSH BRIANNA     I suppose Abby and I should share the... other...? I thought she said the room would have two beds? SOUND      DOOR OPENS ABBY     That clerk didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.  Did you park right next to the door Justin? JUSTIN     [half moan] Yes.  Why? ABBY     I have a bad feeling about all this.  TYLER     Any chance it has something to do with all the spooky movie talk in the car? BRIANNA     And the guy who ran us off the road? ABBY     Maybe.  JUSTIN     Well, unless you're ready to drive - and pay for the extra insurance - We're not moving from this spot until I wake up. ABBY     But the clerk - there was something wrong there.  Really.  God, for a chance at a spot hidden roll. MARK     [more awake] Describe him. BRIANNA     [groans]  Come on - it's beddy-bye time! MARK     Abby's got good instincts, Bree.  You know how hard it is for me to fool her. ABBY     That's just in game.  I'm not-- JUSTIN     [half asleep, but trying]  But you are the only girl-- BRIANNA     [half-hearted] Woman. JUSTIN     --to make it into the ... strategic final thingee-- ABBY     Ok.  Shit I'm tired.  [long deep thinking breath]  He wouldn't let me use the bathroom.  He didn't try and hit on me.  Didn't know which number room was the one on the end.  Didn't ask how many "we" were.  Didn't know which rooms have queen beds.  Didn't ask for a credit card. TYLER     So? He's dead tired too.  Big whoop.  It's [looks] 2 freaking 55 in the morning. MARK     Jeez, folks, we've had sessions which went long past 3!  What's wrong with you? JUSTIN     [muttered into the pillow]  Getting old. MARK     Yeah.  You 25-year old over the hill codger, you.  Abby, what would you do now?  ABBY     What? MARK     This is the scenario.  Right here.  What would you do? TYLER     Sleep. BRIANNA     Seconded. JUSTIN     [Snoring] MARK     Assume it's unlikely we can drive out of here - at least not conveniently.  How would you secure the room? ABBY      [perking up]  We could set watches-- TYLER     [mumbled] Screw you! ABBY     I can't watch all night.  Adrenaline is only good for so long. MARK     That guy struck you that bad? ABBY     Yeah.  I'm probably just-- MARK     Let's assume otherwise.  We have a map - of sorts - on the door there.  Take a look. ABBY     I - well, I got the room on the end, since we'd have a better chance of seeing or hearing anyone coming.  MARK     [chuckles] ABBY     I can't help it.  I'm already in strategy mode.  Ok, the room has windows at the front and back and a bathroom that abuts the next room.  No windows in the end wall.  If we could keep an eye either side-- SOUND     FEET ON CARPET, CURTAIN PULLED ASIDE, THEN WHIPPED BACK INTO PLACE. ABBY     Oh, shit. MARK     What? ABBY     God, I hope no one saw the light.  MARK     I'll turn it off.  Let them think we're asleep.  SOUND     CLICK OF SWITCH MARK     Now? ABBY     It's the truck - car - whatever!    The one that almost ran us off the road! MARK     [gasps]  Are you sure? ABBY     Come and look! MARK     I believe you.  We need everyone if this is a real situation.  Shit. ABBY     There's woods - cover - right out back.  If Tyler was up, he could go look. MARK     He's not going to be up any time soon. ABBY     I know what will-- I'm going to take a chance and get my other bag from the car.  I'll see what I can see.  MARK     I'll try the phone-- ABBY     No! MARK     Why? ABBY     Switchboard - I saw a switchboard in the office.  MARK     Shit.  Major "notice," though.  Good one. SOUND     DOOR OPENS MARK     Abby? ABBY     I'll be careful. MARK     [encouraging] I'm glad it's you. SOUND     DOOR SOFTLY CLOSES MARK      Shit.  SOUND     A moment of just snoring MUSIC      CREEPS IN, JUST A BIT MARK     [snorty, "almost fell asleep" noise]  Abby?  What time--?  Shit.  SOUND     WHEELCHAIR SHIFTS MARK     [urgent hiss] Justin!  Wake up, dammit! JUSTIN     Wha--? MARK     Wake Up! SOUND     DOOR OPENS QUICKLY, FEET COME IN, DOOR SHUTS AGAIN MARK     God!  You nearly gave me a heart attack! ABBY     Sorry - I spotted someone out in the parking lot, just after I got in the van, and I didn't want to move again until it was clear.  JUSTIN     [almost awake] What's going on? ABBY     I'll get Tyler up. MARK     Go for it.  I doubt you'll have much luck. ABBY     Ah, but I have a secret weapon - I always pack a sixer with me to gaming cons.  SOUND     SLOSHING OF LIQUID MARK     [almost drooling] Energy shots. ABBY     Un-huh.  It may take a minute or two, but we'll get everyone up and running. MUSIC TYLER     All you had to do was shout "Bob! Bob is coming!" and I woulda been up and running without the taste of ass - Bob was the demon in the larp last weekend, and man was he-- MARK     Shush.  EVERYONE     [Murmurs of assent] MARK     Let's assume this is not a drill. EVERYONE     [a bit undecided murmurs] ABBY     I know there's something odd here.  I feel it. JUSTIN     Are you sure you're not just jittery about the tourney? ABBY     Probably am, but that doesn't make me think I'm wrong. BRIANNA     [Still groggy] What do you want us to do? MARK     Tyler, are you up for something that could be really dangerous? TYLER     Hell yeah. BRIANNA     [cautioning] Tyler? TYLER     Well, how dangerous? MARK     Abby? ABBY     Out the back window of the room, I think I saw that armored car that nearly ran us down.  It's parked in a dark spot.  If it's really the one, and there's any chance it's the same one that was stolen, there's a good chance we've walked in on a den of thieves.  We need to know.  Can you get within range of it and have a look? TYLER      Gimme a second. SOUND     FEET. CURTAIN MOVES BRIANNA     When you say "really dangerous"--? MARK     They already killed a couple of guys during the holdup.  I can't see them hesitating at shooting a few more bystanders. BRIANNA     Tyler? ABBY     Bree, I've Larped with him, and if anyone can really sneak, it's Folemon. BRIANNA     But that's his character! ABBY     In live action games, there are things you either can do or you can't, and sneaking is‑‑ TYLER     [voice slightly different - "in character" as Folemon]  I spy the brigands' carriage.  I will hence and reconnoiter. BRIANNA     Be careful. TYLER     Fair maiden, with you to return to, I cannot fail.  [kiss on hand]  Douse the lanterns, lest my shadow betray me! MUSIC SOUND     LIGHT TAPPING NOISE, WHICH GOES ON THROUGHOUT JUSTIN     What are you doing? ABBY     What does it look like?  I'm checking for trap doors. JUSTIN     You're joking. BRIANNA     Didn't you see that movie Vacancy?  There was a trapdoor in the bathroom floor.  ABBY     That was so annoying.  They were so stupid about that. JUSTIN     About what? ABBY     Did you see the movie? JUSTIN     Well, no. ABBY     They could have easily blocked the hatch.  But they didn't and ended up fighting guys popping up out of it. BRIANNA     They couldn't block it - they tried.  There wasn't any heavy furniture. ABBY     [derisive laugh]  What do you call this? SOUND     DULL THUMP JUSTIN     A mattress. ABBY     Have you ever had to move one?  From a dead lift?  And if that's not enough, the trapdoor was right next to the tub - you just soak the damn thing and no one - not even Schwarzenegger-- BRIANNA     Well, back in his prime-- ABBY     Is going to be able to shift it. JUSTIN     You ...actually ...thought about this? ABBY     [matter of fact] It's what I do.  SOUND     KNOCKING BRIANNA     Lights out - it's the door.  SOUND     SCUFFLE OF MOVEMENT BRIANNA     Tyler? ABBY     Folemon! TYLER     [muffled] I return triumphant! SOUND     DOOR OPENS AND QUICKLY SHUTS AGAIN, LOCKS TYLER     And, I have a prize! SOUND     TAP ON SOMETHING METAL SOUND     LIGHT CLICKS ON JUSTIN     What the--? MARK     No, that's good.  If we can get to the authorities, we can prove we saw the damn thing. JUSTIN     You coulda taken a picture - you think they're not going to notice a missing license plate? TYLER     [chuckling, full of himself] I think they'll have other things on their mind. ABBY     Oh, god, what did you do? TYLER     I had my thieves tool handy-- JUSTIN     What? BRIANNA     Pocketknife. TYLER     So I hobbled their horses. ABBY     We need to go now. JUSTIN      You did what? BRIANNA     He let the air out of their tires.  Tyler, sweetie, speak English so I can stop translating. TYLER     Hey, what?  They won't be able to come after us-- ABBY     But they will know someone was spying on their truck.  They might not notice the plate, but--  aagh! TYLER     I was... um... in the zone?  My character would have-- MARK     Understandable.  Let's deal with it.  Were there any other cars out there? TYLER     Not out back.  MARK     Justin? JUSTIN     What? MARK     Any other cars out front? JUSTIN     I didn't notice.  Sorry. MARK     See what happens when you give up gaming?  You lose your edge.  You remember anything Abby? ABBY     Not in the parking lot.  I can take a look. MARK     Hold off.  What do we have for weapons, if it comes to that? JUSTIN     Jack Shit. ABBY     Torchiere for a club.  BRIANNA     No - no heft. ABBY     We can wire the doorknob as a last resort - give someone a bitch of a shock. TYLER     Shh! [They all do.] SOUND     SLIGHT CRUNCH, MIGHT BE FOOT ON GRAVEL MARK     Posts. SOUND     VERY QUIET MOVEMENT ABBY     Uh-uh. BRIANNA     shit. MARK     The front? BRIANNA     Movement. ABBY     Window?  Door?  BRIANNA     Distraction.  [starts moaning, loudly - very sexy] ABBY     Stay out the way of the window.  BRIANNA     Uhh!  [whispered] Watching. [Up] Ohh! TYLER     [joins in] JUSTIN     You won't be able to hear-- ABBY     Neither will they! SOUND     WINDOW SLIDES OPEN WITH A PROTESTING SQUEAL ABBY     Shit.  If we're going out this way, we're doing it sharp and hard. MARK     Out front? TYLER     [still groaning] BRIANNA     Someone's right outside.  Ohh! Just a shadow.  Ohh!  Peeping or about to try something.  Ohh! JUSTIN     This is insane.  This does not happen in real life. MARK     Look, bro- you can play along, and worst that happens is you look like an idiot with the rest of us, or you keep saying it can't be real and maybe take a bullet.  Why not play along? JUSTIN      Shit.  What do you need me to do?  I am not joining that party. [Moans continue intermittently] MARK     Can you see what's at the top of the closet? Usually if there's access to an attic space, that's where it would be. JUSTIN     Sure. MARK     And you're tall enough. JUSTIN     No problem.  [suddenly serious] If this is some psycho situation, you know I won't let anyone get you, right, bro? MARK     Shithead.  Get everyone else out first!  I'm the burden - now get in the damn closet. SOUND     CLOSET DOOR OPENS ABBY     You're not a burden.  MARK     Physically, I'm a drag on the party. ABBY     Mentally, you're the only one keeping us together.  So you can just shut up. MARK     OK, shutting. BRIANNA     He's making a move. MARK     Shit.  SOUND     KNOCK ON THE DOOR BRIANNA     [loud] Ooh!  Oh, shit!  Huh? TYLER     [loud] What the fuck? MARK     Abby?  Where are we? ABBY     Tyler, get behind the door. Ready to slam it if you gotta. TYLER     Check. SOUND     KNOCK AGAIN ABBY     Brianna, the torchiere, stay below the window, trip anyone coming in. BRIANNA     On it. SOUND      KNOCKING INSISTENT ABBY     [trying to make up her mind] Door - wall - wall - door.  Shit! [deep breath, then calling out] What? SOUND     SHIFTING FURNITURE CLARK     You all right in there? ABBY     What? CLARK     I heard a noise. JUSTIN     [whispered] See?  Normal. ABBY     No.  At the very least, he's peeping.  No way he'd hear anything from the office.  [up]  Everything's fine.  We were watching a movie.  MARK     Good one. JUSTIN     Oh, this is idiotic. SOUND     WALKS, UNLOCKS AND FLINGS OPEN DOOR TYLER     Hey! ABBY     No! SOUND     GUNSHOT, BODY DROP JUSTIN     [screams in pain] SOUND     DOOR SLAMS CLARK     [screams in pain] ABBY     Bree, can you get the lock, without getting in front of the door - it's crap, but-- BRIANNA     Done.  Justin - is he--? SOUND     LOCK FUMBLED SHUT JUSTIN     [sounds more annoyed than hurt] I'm shot. ABBY     At least now we know it's not a drill.  SOUND     GUNSHOT, WINDOW SHATTERS ABBY     Down! SOUND     BODIES FALL, WHEELCHAIR RATTLES AND TIPS MARK     Get him.  I'll cover Justin. SOUND     CAUTIOUS STEP ON BROKEN GLASS ABBY     [scream, distracting him] SOUND     FEET TURN ON THE GLASS, GUNSHOT ABBY     Bree! BRIANNA     Yaaaah!  SOUND     THUMP - BODY DROPS CLARK     Yowtch! ABBY     Sit on that bastard.  Tyler, check for backup? SOUND     HEAVY CRUNCH ON GLASS CLARK     [Whimper] TYLER     On it. SOUND     CAR STARTING TYLER     Oh shit - he's in for a surprise.  Front's clear. JUSTIN     You seem to all be ignoring the fact that I've been shot. MARK     I've been applying pressure. JUSTIN     To my mouth. MARK     oh, yeah, I was supposed to be stopping the part that got shot, not the part that shot off, right. ABBY     Brianna, swap - you take a look at Justin, see if we can move him.  I'll hold down the ...fort. TYLER     Fart. [Snickers all around.] CLARK     [Moans, then grunts when Abby turns him over] SOUND     CRACKLE OF GLASS UNDER HIS BODY ABBY     Need something to tie him with.  TYLER     Gotcha.  Thieves tools to the rescue again. SOUND     RIPPING FABRIC - GOES ON FOR A WHILE BRIANNA     Tyler, toss me your flint and steel. SOUND     CATCH, THEN FLASHLIGHT COMES ON BRIANNA     Looks superficial.  I was hoping I knocked you down quickly enough, but I wasn't sure. JUSTIN     I've been shot. BRIANNA     Yes, but not badly.  I'll bandage it in a second. TYLER     Here's your fifty feet of rope... ABBY     Check the back? TYLER     I am fleet enough to be in all places at once. SOUND     ENGINE STOPS TYLER     Oh. ABBY     [grunts as she ties a knot]  OK, shithead.  Talk. CLARK     What? ABBY     Well, we have your gun.  And a pocketknife.  You want to choose which one I do you over with? CLARK     What?  I was just-- ABBY     Shooting in through our door? CLARK     I thought you were - TYLER     Shut up. ABBY     No, let him talk.  I want to hear this. CLARK     Nothing. ABBY     Oh, well.  How many friends you got out there? CLARK     None. ABBY     So that's Christine out back?  Or are you Knight Rider? CLARK     Ow!  No - No!  Stop! JUSTIN     Let me.  I'm the one he shot. CLARK     No!  There's just the two - and B-Ball's shot. ABBY     Anyone else? JUSTIN     Is this what you were doing? CLARK     OWWW!  No, no one! ABBY     What about the real clerk? CLARK     Oh - um - ABBY     Right.  We need to dump this guy somewhere. TYLER     Out back?  ABBY     Chances are, we can get out the front. JUSTIN     Chances?  I don't want-- ABBY     No worries.  Tyler - eyes on the back until I signal, OK? TYLER      Sure thing. BRIANNA     What now? ABBY     We do what we have to do.  Mark, you ready to take a chance? MUSIC SOUND     OUTSIDE - DOOR OPENS SOUND     WHEELCHAIR BUMPS NOISILY OUT THE DOOR ABBY     No shots.  Good.  We're moving out.  Justin, you're behind me and the chair - get your ass into the car and start it.  We'll pile in, peel out, and worry about belts and seats later. JUSTIN     Are you sure this is safe? ABBY     Nope.  Tyler?  Got the rear? TYLER     Got it. ABBY      Bree, you're first in.  I'll cover you. SOUND     GUN CLICKS READY BRIANNA     Check.  Hold tight! SOUND     WHEELCHAIR GRINDS ALONG THE GROUND TYLER     He's coming!  ABBY     Everyone - Move!  Justin - get it in gear! JUSTIN      Yeah... SOUND     JINGLE OF KEYS, THEY DROP TO THE GROUND JUSTIN     Shit! ABBY     Dammit!  Bree, get your ass to the other side of the car! SOUND     HEAVY FEET RUNNING ON GRAVEL TYLER     I'll-- SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     You'll go.  Move it.  I'll cover you.  [solemn] Don't fumble the keys. TYLER     I won't. SOUND     RUNNING FEET TAKE OFF ACROSS THE GRAVEL, snatch up the keys. SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     [Gasps as she shoots]  Damn, that's a kick. SOUND     GUNSHOT SOUND     CAR DOOR OPENS ABBY     Yessss! SOUND     ABBY SHOOTS SOUND     SIDE DOOR SLIDES OPEN ABBY     [yelling] Stop shooting at the crip, you scumbag!  You'll be sorry! SOUND     WHEELCHAIR MOVES SLOWLY, ODD FOOTSTEPS AS ABBY CROUCHES BEHIND IT ABBY     Nice to have friends, isn't it? SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     [yelling] You really should stop that!  THUG     [evil laugh] ABBY     I told him. TYLER     Come on! ABBY     Bye-bye SOUND     WHEELCHAIR PUSHED, ROLLS SOUND     GUNSHOT SOUND     GRUNT OF PAIN [CLARK] SOUND     RUNNING FEET SOUND     CAR REVVING SOUND     JUMP SOUND     GUNSHOT, PINGS OFF METAL OF CAR TYLER     [grunting to pull her in] Come on! SOUND     CAR MOVES, FEET DRAG BRIANNA     Here. SOUND     GRAB, DRAG ABBY     [grunting] SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SOUND     TIRES SPIN IN GRAVEL, CAR ZOOMS OFF ABBY     [sigh] OK, whose lap am I in? MARK     Mine.  Sorry about that. ABBY     Hey, we're all here, no one got shot-- JUSTIN     I did! MARK     And we had to dump my chair... ABBY     No one got killed, and we're back on the road.  I'm gonna feel like shit for the tourney, but who gives a crap?  [giggles] [All join in the hysterical relieved laughter.] MUSIC SOUND     OUTSIDE ROAD - MORNING NOISES ABBY     [waking up noises, suddenly awake with a gasp] MARK     [whispering]  Shh.  It's ok-- SOUND     RUSTLE AS SHE TRIES TO SIT UP ABBY     Was it - It was a dream? MARK     Hell no.  But once you passed out, we figured you deserved it.  Let you sleep. ABBY     Oh... MARK     Hey Justin?  When's the next bathroom? BRIANNA     And a phone. JUSTIN     Like anyone's gonna believe us.  BRIANNA     You did get shot. TYLER      And I still have my trophy. SOUND     PING AGAINST METAL OF LICENSE PLATE MARK     Shh.  Abby's out again.  ABBY     Hmm?  [rousing herself] Like hell!  Justin?  Crank the music!! END  

Ritual and Festival Etiquette: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/ritual-and-festival-etiquette/   CW:  Brief mention of recreational substances. ~ 27:00-29:00   Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S4E5 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, mark, and I'm Yucca. And today we are talking about events and festivals, how to organize them and how to be at them, and just generally going over different kinds of events and how you might put those together and why you might want to, all that kind of stuff,  Yucca: right. And, and y attend. And we'll touch a little bit on some of the etiquette as well, but about a year back, I think we did an episode. around that, geared specifically at that. So we'll put a link in the show notes if you anyone wants to go back and listen to that one.  Mark: Right. The one on ritual etiquette on festival etiquette. Yep. Yeah.  Yucca: So, well, and there's also one reason that this has been on our minds is there is an upcoming gathering, although digital, Do you wanna speak to that a little bit,  Mark: mark? Sure. On June 3rd and fourth, we are going to hold the atheopagan web weaving 2023 or ah ah, . And it will be an online. Conference, which will take place over those two days. There will be workshops and presentations and rituals and performances, and an open mic opportunity and lots of socializing. We'll, we'll really use the, the breakout room function on zoom to good effect. Mm-hmm. . So, , it's, it's an opportunity for us to see one another's faces and to gather with one another, even though we're not doing an in-person century retreat this year. Mm-hmm. , we're gonna do one next year, but don't really have it together to do it two years in a row.  Yucca: Right. And that's the first weekend of June. Right? Of June, okay. That's right. Yeah. And so, and you're saying that we just got a lot of proposals for workshops and a pretty big mix of kinds,  Mark: right? We did. Very, very interesting diverse mix of, various proposals. You know, there's some sciencey things, there's some ritually things, there's some psychological things, there's crafty things. So I, I just, I think it's gonna be a really good time. And the, the biggest challenge for people might be in any given workshop slot, which of the workshops they're gonna go to, right? As with any conference. .  Yucca: That has always been the hardest part for me is go, wait, but they all, I wanna be in all three places at once or four. How many of her slots? Yeah.  Mark: Seems to me like I always have bad luck. They, they always schedule like two things that I really want to go to directly opposite one another and I can only pick one. Yeah.  Yucca: Hmm. Well, that will be upon us before we. As mm-hmm. , the wheel keeps turning, right?  Mark: Right. Tickets will go on sale on April 1st. They are a sliding scale from 10 to $50 with an encouraged price point of $20 per person. And. Hopefully we'll sell enough tickets that we'll be able to pay our presenters something. Mm-hmm. and the balance of the money will go to the atheopagan Society. Yeah.  Yucca: Which pays for things like hosting for this podcast. That is correct. Yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about some of the different scales of gatherings that we could be talking about, because there's the digital side, but there's also the in person. gathering. And why don't we start with the kind of small local, because that's gonna be the most, for most people, that's gonna be the most common. Right? It's a lot easier to get six people, 10 people together than it is to get 50 people or 80 people.  Mark: Right. When you're talking about those small, intimate gatherings, you're generally talking about people you already know. Mm-hmm. . . And so it can be more along the lines of hors dvs and wine or sit down dinner parties, something like that where there's an opportunity for everyone to talk to everyone else and to get to know one another. One of the things that I've encouraged people to do if they're looking for others to celebrate rituals with, is to do those kinds of events and just invite like-minded friends. and, you know, do ritual light. Mm-hmm. , you know, do a, do a meal blessing and maybe a little something for the season at that gathering and, and have that be enough. And then maybe do another feast at the next station of the wheel of the year and invite those folks back again. That can turn into an ongoing tradition that can be really meaningful. Yeah. .  Yucca: Well, and, and sometimes we are starting to try to build community. I think especially in the Pagan community where many pagans are very spread out. Mm-hmm. , um, it's not like you can just go to a new town and, and there you go. You got your choice. But you know, you go to New Town and you can choose between your Baptist church and your Lutheran and your this and your that. But that's not usually the case for Pagans. We're trying to. Pull together the, the small community that we might have. So one suggestion depending on personality types, but it sometimes can really help to have something to focus on that everyone's coming together to do with one of those, like you maybe not just expect everyone to come and. Right off the bat, hit it off and have no structure, but maybe we're going on a hike together, and then once we get to the location that we're hiking to, then we have our little ritual. Or maybe there's an activity that we can come together and do. That's one of the reasons Game nights, in addition to games being awesome, but game nights really can be a great way to connect because it gives people something to be doing who might not be super outgoing to begin with. Mm-hmm. . So that's one, one possibility.  Mark: Right. And there are some good tools for organizing those kinds of things. If you're going to have people that you don't know, you don't. You probably don't wanna invite them into your home. Mm-hmm. , without having had any experience of them. But a hike is a great idea. Mm-hmm. . And you can organize something like that on meetup.com. It's a very useful tool. You can describe your event. You know, we're gonna do a. Mindful hike along this particular trail with you know, a blessing for nature at the end of it. And if people are freaked out by the idea of a blessing for nature, they won't show up. And if they're not, then they will show up. And now you've, now you've got the, the beginnings of a group where you can meet people and decide who you might eventually invite to something more intimate. Right.  Yucca: And of course we're just using a hike as an example. You know, that might not be a good fit for where you are or your mobility or whatever it is, but you know, something like that. Right. The  Mark: other possibility is to organize some kind of volunteer activity. Hmm. You know, if you connect with, say, a conservation organization that's doing a restoration project and they need. They need a whole ton of saplings. They just put in watered mm-hmm. or or they're doing a, a trash cleanup of a local creek or a river or something like that. Mm-hmm. . You can pull a group of like-minded people together and come as a group. Now you're contributing something really great. And developing a bit of a, of a group identity. people that are doing that together. You know, maybe you all buy t-shirts or something that all look the same so you can recognize the other members of your group. Mm-hmm. . And that's, that's a good way to just kind of start off on that earth focused public minded kind of mentality that we, we really encourage. Yeah.  Yucca: I like that idea. I imagine little bandanas. Everybody have the same , Uhhuh, , same bandana. That'd be great. You make your bat houses or bird houses or something. Uhhuh, . So, and then once you, you have an, a more intimate connection, maybe the inviting into the home, if that's something you're comfortable with or going into someone else's home or, or something like that.  Mark: Huh. Yeah. I mean having, or you know, if you're not, and the weather's good, you know, do a picnic. Mm-hmm. , pick a park, have everybody bring their own food. But you can do it sort of potluck so people can trade stuff around. Mm-hmm. . But  Yucca: then you don't need to worry about not having something for somebody if they have a particular restriction and Exactly. That kind of thing.  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, all of those kind of human in low, low stress, low effort, human engagement, things are, are good opportunities. To meet other people who either are naturalistic pagans or who could very well be naturalistic pagans if they knew what one of those was. . Yep.  Yucca: There's a lot of those  Mark: folks. There are. And we have more of 'em coming into our community every day. Yeah. Saying, wow, I thought I was the only person who thought like this. Don't think of it as proselytizing, cuz that's, we're really not about that. We're not trying to convert people, but we do wanna offer people an opportunity Yeah. To be, you know, aware that this is a path that exists and they can have it if they want to. Yeah. And they can adapt it to whatever their needs are as they want to. Right.  Yucca: Right. Be exposed to it and. You know, if there's bits and pieces that make sense to them, then fantastic. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So what about if we, we kind of scale this size up a little bit mm-hmm. to a more medium or maybe even like a regional kind of event,  Mark: right. When you're, you're talking about, I mean, maybe you could accommodate 60, 75 people at a picnic. Mm-hmm. , but kind of at maximum. . But you're certainly not going to have those folks at your house, . You've, you've  Yucca: gotta, unless you have a very different house than either of us have .  Mark: Yes, exactly. Yeah. I mean we can, if  Yucca: you do, awesome. More power to you.  Mark: Right? We can maybe fit 75 people in here if they were all jammed up against one another in every room of the house. Yucca: I'm sure the fire marshal would like that .  Mark: Yeah, that would be great. . So. , you, you often will need a venue. The what I find is that Unitarian Universalist churches often rent their space for very little mm-hmm. . And that gives you, you know, a room and you pay a cleaning deposit and stuff like that. But you can ask people to contribute at the door as they come in to recoup that money. Mm-hmm. . . And and you can explain that in the invitation. You can say, you know, please bring $10 to help pay for the hall.  Yucca: Yeah. If you can, or  Mark: whatever. Yeah. Yes. You know, no one turned away for lack of funds. Yeah. By the way, that is the way that the The atheopagan, we web weaving will be as well. No. You know, if you can't afford $10, then you know, we'll, we'll give you a, an entry code anyway. Right. Because we don't want anyone to be caught. Just because they don't have money.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. Cuz it's not, we're not doing it to make money. No. Charging because we need to compensate, trying to compensate the people who are putting a tremendous amount of, of effort into to, and volunteering time and all of that. Mark: We're, we're actually, at least as I'm conceiving it now, I mean, I wouldn't make any money the peop, but it's the people that are doing the presentations. Right. Although actually I am doing two presentations now that I think about it. But anyway, we'll work that out. The, the, the people that go to the trouble to put together a presentation and, and give it to us. Even if it's only a very, you know, like very token amount, like 25 or $50. I think it's, it's something that shows that we value. It represents what they're offering to the community.  Yucca: Right. It represents something. Right. In the same way we might use a tool and ritual. Mm-hmm. just having that exchange communicates that. Right?  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And, and we talk a lot about reciprocity in our relationship with with nature as being one that needs to be reciprocal, where we give as well as take. And that's true with people. . So it's, it's something that's consistent with our values. So anyway, . Yeah, there's, there's your tangent for today. Yucca: At least number one. Yes. Let's see if we get to number two. Um-huh. . But, so coming back to the regional, right, you were saying that sometimes places like EU churches or places like that, you might be able to. Rent out for a short period of time.  Mark: Right. Or even group campgrounds. Mm-hmm. , if you wanna do like an overnight thing. Right before Covid, I announced an event called Midsummer Dawn that was going to be done at the group campground of a, a local state park here where I am. and I promoted it as an event for pagans of all flavors. Mm-hmm. , you know, the idea was what we were gonna have in common was being pagans, what we believed about the gods or any of that really didn't matter. The. , the rituals that we were gonna do in the evening were gonna be organized by me and my cohorts. So they were gonna be non theist rituals but very generic. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, if during the qualities phase people wanted to invoke their gods, well fine. Let 'em. Sure. Yeah. And we would enjoy time around the bonfire and. just have a, a good social time. I had to cancel it because of Covid. Right. But that's, that's an example of the kind of event you can do without a ton of effort, you know? Mm-hmm. , you have to reserve the, the campground and that involves laying out, you know, can be a few hundred dollars. Well also  Yucca: check with your municipal park system. I know that we, we were able to, Reserve a park for, I got married years ago and it didn't cost us anything. Now that might be the part of the, our particular city that we were in. Mm-hmm. . But you might not have to charge, you might not have to pay very much. It just go and, you know, talk with your Right. Your parks department and see what. What are the restrictions they might have if you're under a certain number of people? They did have some requirements that we had to go and check out some trash cans from them and then give the trash cans back and do some, you know, some paperwork. But that was about it. And  Mark: very often they'll, if you're doing an event, they'll require event insurance, which is very affordable For a one day event, event insurance, it's about a hundred dollars. Mm-hmm. .  Yucca: and, and that's probably gonna depend on si the number of people attending,  Mark: right? Yes. And, and other factors like, you know, will there be alcohol? Stuff like that. Mm-hmm. . But generally speaking, you know, for a hundred bucks you can get a million dollar policy liability policy for an event. And that should cover hopefully, you know, hopefully even, you know, even if somebody breaks a leg, you know, that should cover. all of the expenses necessary. Mm-hmm. . So, so anyway, oh, and in many homeowners and renters policies holding events like that is included in the policy. So you should check your own policies and see if you've already got coverage for events that you organize right Now.  Yucca: That would be on the smaller side though, because you're gonna have an occupancy limit. Yes. Right. There's a limit to how many people you can have in safely in a, in a building,  Mark: right? Yeah. But even, even events that aren't in a building, like an event in a park. Mm-hmm. , Of those policies apply even to an event like that. Hmm. Okay. It's, it's worth investigating or talking to your broker or, you know, whatever, whatever that is. So yeah, you can get 50, 75, a hundred people together in a, in a nice place and. Have a lot of socializing and visiting and all that good stuff. And then maybe when the sun goes down, if you're able to light a fire, that's perfect you can circle up around the fire. People can say their name and where they're from or their name and what brings them to this gathering. You go around.  Yucca: were their favorite  Mark: something? Yes. Their favorite. Something we did. Favorite, favorite color in the mixer this morning. Oh, nice. .  Yucca: Yeah. Or favorite tree or bird or, you know, star or things  Mark: like that. Yeah. So it's, it's an opportunity to do, you know, very, very low key kind of ritual. , but to bring people of like mind together and socialize and make friends and, and visit with one another. Mm-hmm. . And then of course there are the very large festivals, the ones that pull in 300, 500. Even more people like Pagan spirit gathering or rights of spring or, you know, some of these Starwood, some of these very, very large ritual or pagan gatherings. Mm-hmm. and that's, we're not gonna talk about organizing an event like that because this podcast would then be four hours long. Right. There are tremendous logistics to organizing something that big. Yeah.  Yucca: And probably there's going to be fewer people. organizing an event like that than, than folks who are gonna be doing a regional gathering or a small local gathering?  Mark: Yes. Yeah. Y yeah. I, I think what, what I encourage people to do, if they, if they have a solitary practice and they feel lonely in that, they want to connect with other people of like mind, you know, start. You know, if you find, if you find five or six people that really resonate with what you're doing, you've got critical mass for a ritual circle. Mm-hmm. don't wanna get much smaller than that because if somebody doesn't show up, then you really don't have critical mass. Right. But you know, my, my ritual circle is eight people and. Has been working fine for more than 30 years. So, it's, it's worth making that effort to hold a gathering, see what kind of folks you, you come up with, you know, kind of test the waters with people and get a sense of their personalities and their interests mm-hmm. , and and proceed from there. Yeah. .  Yucca: Well, is there anything we wanna say about attending those kinds of real big gatherings  Mark: though? Oh one other thing that I wanted to mention before we talk about attending those gatherings, there is an online tool that's free at least it, it, it is free. For the purposes that we used it for, for the Suntry retreat, it's called SignUpGenius. Mm-hmm. signupgenius.com. And it's great. People can check options of different things that they want to register for. So I. admission plus tent camping, plus linens, plus food. Mm-hmm. . And all that gets all added up and, and they get registered and it goes into a spreadsheet that you can download. It's, and Oh, nice. And then you can have them pay through PayPal or Venmo or something like that. Mm-hmm. , um, and. . It was a really slick way of organizing, you know, keeping track of, okay, we have this many slots for this sort of lodging opportunity. How many of those slots are gone? Right? It was, it was a really effective way of keeping track of all of that stuff. Mm-hmm. , and I really encouraged people to check it out, sign up. genius.com. They're not sponsoring the podcast , right? I'm just giving them free press .  Yucca: And I was not involved with the organizing on that, but I did use that as one of the attendees, and I found it was very user-friendly, easy. There was no confusion. It was super clear exactly what they were asking and how to use it. So,  Mark: mm. Yeah. There were people that did not find it. It wasn't that they didn't find it easy, it's that they didn't understand how to do it correctly. So we had a couple of people that didn't sign up for attendance. They only signed up for lodging and food , but they didn't sign up for attendance, so you had to go back through, figure out. So we had to call them and they did it. Sure, it's fine. But between, you know, the, the pay systems. PayPal and Venmo and systems like Signup genius. There are just wonderful tools online right now for organizing events. Brown paper tickets is another. Mm-hmm. , you know, if you have a, a set ticket price. So check it out. You know, you, you may be able to get a lot of the. The busy work, the administrative work for organizing your event taken care of with free tools on the net. Yeah, so big festivals. As, as Yucca said, we did do a episode on festival etiquette about a year ago. . So we encourage you to go and check that out, but let's hit some of the high points. I think the number one thing there, what you'll find in these in these festivals is lots of very happy Abu friendly people. Mm-hmm. ,  Yucca: it's kinda a party kind of feeling going on. Yes.  Mark: And a lot of people know one another, so you see lots and lots of hugging and all that good kind of stuff. So just be really aware of consent and your own boundaries. Ask people before you hug them. If you're introduced to somebody, they may well want to hug you. just as a greeting. Mm-hmm. , because that's pretty common in those circles. It is perfectly okay for you to say No hugs, please. Yeah. And  Yucca: so one thing you can try doing with that and it's is when they move forward for the hug and you're not comfortable with it, if you are comfortable with the handshake, , you move into the handshake right away. Right? And that's one of the things that can, that doesn't always work. But it gives them kind of a, a social out to shift what they're doing and not have it feel, not, not seem as like a rejection for them. Uhhuh . .  Mark: Yeah. So the whole concept of boundaries and consent is something that you'll really want to keep at the forefront throughout the time that you're at a festival like this. You may encounter people that aren't very good about that. Yeah. And so, being able to communicate clearly is important. You should that's, that's not comfortable for me. Yeah. You know, please don't do that. I'm not comfortable. . Yeah. That's, you know, no is a complete sentence. Mm-hmm. , it's perfectly all right for, for you to do that. And you're not being a spoiled sport or putting a damper on the party or any of that. That's, you know, that's just not, that's not what you're doing.  Yucca: You've got, not only do you have every right, it's really important. . Mm-hmm. you that you have the boundaries that you're comfortable with and that people learn to respect that. Mm-hmm. . So  Mark: now that said, you're gonna find people with whom you might be able to get real friendly, real fast, , and maybe you'll want to get real friendly real fast. That's okay. As long as it's your choice, right? Yeah. So the next thing that I would talk about is ritual. Et. . Just be aware of what, what the, and ask if you aren't clear about what the kind of ritual rules are. There are some people that organize pagan rituals where if you have to leave the circle for some reason, you have to make some sort of big gesture of cutting, cutting the gate in the circle so you could leave and then resealing it. It's not as, it's not an issue. You can just leave and come back as you need to,  Yucca: or there's a certain spot that you're supposed to leave from. Right, right, right.  Mark: Yeah, that's, that's another one. Some. Are very focused on turning clockwise accepted halls when they would go counterclockwise.  Yucca: Oh, and what are the fun words for those? The old-fashioned words? Oh,  Mark: Witter, deci and wit shins. Oh, that's just so fun. . Yeah, those are great words. Wi Witter shins. Shins. Whi  Yucca: shins. Okay. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. . Yeah. So just be aware. You know, and my rule as always is they're party their rules, so, mm-hmm. , you know, if, if you're an atheopagan, a naturalistic, pagan, and they start proclaiming how, you know, the goddess is coming down, come down Athena and yada, yada, yada, yada. , that's fine. You know, we're not, we're not there to set anybody straight or, you know, convince them of our worldview. Just, you know, yeah. Waited, waited out, and you'll get to parts of the ritual that will resonate for you more. Yeah.  Yucca: Yeah. So just that, just that paying attention, right. And mm-hmm. and recognizing that. You were the guest and enjoying it to the extent that you can. Right. And also if there's something you don't wanna participate in, that you, you don't have to. No. Right. So there's a, the big opening ritual, but you know that they're gonna be talking all about, you know, the gods and the spirits and the this and the that. Then you, you don't have to put yourself into that position if that's not gonna work for.  Mark: No, you really don't. And or you can just do it and tough it out and see what you can get out of it. Any of those choices is fine. The, the main issue is choice. Yeah. . Another thing is that there will very often be a variety of intoxicating substances around mm-hmm. And people will offer them to you. Just be aware of yourself, right? Mm-hmm. be, you know, , and that can be, you know, if you want to go into a Dionysian frenzy and you know, really be kind of out of control for a while that's your choice. You're, you're a grownup and you get to make that choice. But that can possibly endanger you in some ways because you're not in full control of your faculties, right? Otherwise you can make judici judicious choices. using some or all of those substances and kind of, you know, keep, keep a lid on it, you know? Mm-hmm. with moderation. So that while you're altered, you're not you're not three sheets to the wind. Right.  Yucca: Well then also have the awareness. , some people might be altered when you're not. Don't. Right, right, right. That, that may be part of the factor of the, the way that they're behaving. They're the choices or how they're, they are or aren't. Reading your social cues. Mm-hmm. ,  Mark: right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And if, if things start going in a, in a general direction, like there you are around the bonfire and suddenly it appears that everybody is making out except you. It's okay to go to. Yeah. or take a walk in the woods, or, I mean, you don't need to participate in anything that you don't want to participate in. Mm-hmm. . And it's, it's perfectly fine for you to make choices like that.  Yucca: Right. And we brought this up in the, the big scale, but this applies as well to the medium and, and I think it just sounds. At least my personal philosophy, and it sounds like it's yours as well, mark, that that's a choice that you can make in whatever the, the. Scale of social gathering that you're in that Sure, of course. It's your body, your agency, your choice. Right, right, right.  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. It's just that the more people you,  Yucca: the more people around, the more pressure, the more the flow. We we're social creatures, right? We just don't go. Yeah. And  Mark: there, there is a, a mob mentality at some level. I mean, a, a crowd of people has a personality of its own that is only partly determined by any one person within. Yeah. So it's it's important to be aware of that, not let yourself get swept away in the mob vibe if you don't want to go there. Right.  Yucca: Or, and you're saying mob, but it may not, mob has a very strong connotation and it could have that, but it also, we were talking earlier about that kind of party friendly vibe that happens at many of these gatherings as well. It's not necessarily just the angry mob with pitchforks, but Oh, no, I didn't mean that. Mark: No, I, I, I have yet to see an angry mob with pitchforks at a pagan festival, although certainly I've seen. Some behavior that probably deserved to win Angry mob in pitch Forest . Yeah. So. So, and the, the thing to be aware of is you can have a, a lot of fun and some really wonderful conversations and interactions and just, you know, really meaningful, enjoyable time at these kinds of gatherings. It's just a matter of keeping your wits about you and just being aware, not letting yourself be swept away by something without considering it.  Yucca: Right. Well, we hope that in the coming months and years there will be more of these types of gatherings, especially as our community is growing. Mm-hmm. . And maybe one day we'll get to the point where we have one of these big ones, but for now we're, we're in this smaller scale. , right.  Mark: I think it's more likely that our sector of the community will become recognized more and more as part of the community. And so we'll have recognizable contingents at some of the big ones that are already happening, right? Mm. But who knows? Yeah, who knows? I mean, you know, we're, we're still, we're still contending with Covid. There's, there's a lot to wonder about the future of social gatherings, in, in our world. Yeah. I really hope that all of you listening will consider coming to the web weaving event in June. We'll keep you updated on what's going on with that. As I said, tickets will go on sale in April which gives us a couple of months to pull things together, and it would, it'd be great to see your face, so  Yucca: yeah, I'd really love to have  Mark: you. Once again, we really appreciate your listening and your interest in what we have to say. Go. If you haven't already please check out the new YouTube. Channels videos, right? Because that, that's now happening once a week. We're having new video content and as well as posting the podcast to to YouTube as well,  Yucca: right? And there, and you can comment there. Mm-hmm. . So that's been lovely for those of uh, thank you so much for those of you who've been commenting. It's really nice to see that and get. Have that feedback and, and conversation around it.  Mark: Yeah, it's been really great. So thanks to all of you. Once again, you can still reach us if you would like to at the wonder podcast cues gmail.com and shoot us some email. Let us know what you think or some ideas for a new show. Yep.  Yucca: Thanks everybody. Mark: Bye-Bye.    

Mark: Well, look, it's really it's a, it's a long journey. I've read your book, I've read many books, I've been in this game for a long time. It's very difficult to sum it up in literally minutes, I suppose. But after reading a book just recently, and listening to all your podcasts a lot lately, I've delved into a lot of it and taken many, many things out of each person's story, which I can resonate wholeheartedly with. But I probably got into Options back in 2006. And I've probably come and gone with it a lot. I've started and stopped, due to various reasons, obviously, life, I've got kids and family and work commitments and stuff like that. But it's always been, I suppose, a hobby. But trying to make that jump or trying to get into it. Full time is obviously difficult for lack of funds or lack of time and effort. I don't know, there's always seems to be something that comes up that stops me from progressing. Having said that, I'm a pretty committed person. I'm pretty disciplined. I've been doing it now for a long time. But like, if you look through him on the table here, I've got trading stuff sitting everywhere, notes. Mark: I've crunched the wheel so many times I've done the shiny diamond thing. I've gone from one program to another. I've spent numerous amounts of funds on various programs and different services such as yourself. I don't know this Option Genius has been around in my life, I suppose, on and off. So I don't know like I've all I'm a big advocate for what you say and what you do. I've wholeheartedly believe that I've been selling options for a long time I've done credit spreads, I've done strangles I've done butterflies, I've done covered calls, I've done a lot of those strategies, or centered around selling options. And I've been doing it for a long time. But for some reason, I just can't seem to break through the ceiling, I just cannot seem to be there to go from this hobby, like training interest that I seem to be involved with, to getting to that next level. I suppose I when I found out that we're going to do this call. Set last night I sat down I tried to write out things that would be good to discuss or to ask you. And I've got like all this paper sitting you have all these notes that I've made, as you would have seen in my email, it was quite lengthy. I think one of the assistants said all that email is probably the longest one I've ever received, that I really okay then.  Allen: Like, you know, because we get, we get lots of emails every day and some people, right? Some people write two paragraphs, but when somebody goes in deep, and they really share their, you know, their soul pretty much. It's like, Hey, I've been doing this and this and this, and this, and I don't know what's going on, then, like we you can feel it when somebody is really, really wanting to make it work. And so those most of those get passed on to me. And when I read it, I was like, alright, you know, we need to we need to talk about this. Because if you've been doing this for years, then like, I have not doing my job. I've let you down in some way that because you know, you shouldn't still be feeling that way. I know. But it's not uncommon. You know, we come across many, many people that come to us and say, hey, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. But you know, it never clicked for me. But you will.. Mark: Yeah, I can see that. So many people that you talk to, you know, have the same they're trying and trying to trying to find the right system, the right setup the right, whatever it is just can't seem like I feel to break through that ceiling. Like you're stuck underneath the water. You're swimming hard. You're learning this, you're watching that you're reading this you're researching. You're looking at the charts to pair with analysis, paralysis, all that stuff. And I've made lots of trades. I've done lots of trading. I've been I've been I won't say successful because clearly we wouldn't be on this call otherwise, but I've made money, but I've also lost money. I've got scars, I've got all that stuff I've had I've had losses, but still here I am battling looking at all that stuff that you talked about in the book in that book really resonated with me there's a lot of stuff in there that I thought I can do this. I know I can do it. Why am I doing it? Why it's just what why does it elude me so much? Is it just a pipe dream and more and more just a duck on the water swimming and just never gonna get there? I don't know. Allen: So you know, when we when we got the email, when they forwarded to me, they asked me like, hey, what do you think the problem is here? Does he not know enough? And my answer to them was No, I think he knows too much. He knows too much. That's part of the problem. I'm just guessing here and I wanted to try to get to the root of it. But you know a lot of the times when so there's there's different things that you need. Everybody needs different things to in order to succeed in anything. Obviously, you know, you need to know what to do you need to how to do it. You know, you have to practice you have to put in the time. You need somebody Do that can actually has doing it like coach that's teaching you, you need a team or a teammate or somebody to do it with. These are all different things that that can help. But a lot of times we come across people that have been, you know, bouncing around from program to program, like you said, they know all the different strategies, they know everything, they know how it works. Some people come and they know it better than I do. You know, so they're, they're telling me that, oh, the Vega this is this and the Gamma and the theta and the row and all this other, you know, they're touching on the Greeks, and they're managing by the Greeks, and they're doing all these complicated stuff. But they're like, it's still not working, why is it not working? So I think, if it can work for somebody else, it can work for you. And I firmly believe that in just about anything, except maybe sports, you know, should somebody else could dunk the ball, maybe I can't dunk the ball. But in trading, a lot of it is I think, 80 to 90% of it is menta. Mark: I've totally, totally, totally. Allen: So there might be something that is holding you back, or, you know, maybe like I don't know, so let's get into it. So now you've mentioned a couple of times that you haven't gotten to the next level. So tell me what is the next level? What is the goal that you're trying to get to? Mark: Well, I think the goal is the same for everybody's, you know, everyone's trying to make income, like, right, I have a I mean, I'm in I'm a cop. So I work in a profession that I see myself coming to a fork in the road. I've been doing this job now for over 14 years, for 10 years. And before that I was in a private industry, we had a family business. So I understand all the dynamics of running a business, how it operates. We had a family business for over 30 years. And long story short, we got out of that for various reasons. And then I got into the government sector, which is a totally different psyche altogether, which took me some time to try and come to terms with. Having said that, I've forever in my wife, and I've come from a family that has been heavily invested in property, shares, businesses, and stuff like that. So I've always had this belief that I can do something with my life that will be able to produce constant income money have investments, like I've had investment properties, and I've done the share thing now on the option things for a long time. And I'm not destitute, I'm not desperate, I have a house, I have three beautiful children and family sort of stuff. But I want to go to the next level I want to be able to provide, I want to be able to teach my kids trading, I want to be able to show them how to invest all the money stuff, like all that sort of thing. I feel as if I'm promoting this stuff, yet, I haven't really truly succeeded myself. I haven't got to the level where they can say okay, Mark, look at you've got all this great stuff, and that show me how to do it. And when they do ask me, I'm sort of thinking so I will not really, I can talk about it. I've read about it, and I'm doing it, but I really haven't got what you think I have. Having said that. Getting back to the trading side of it. I think I want to have this as a business, I can see the potential in it as you can do from home. It's all in front of you in the net. I don't have to go out I don't have to be injured tree. I understand that. I do know a lot about it. I understand all those things you just mentioned with the Greeks and what not right? And I probably do, I probably do know too much. And I do want to keep it simple. I do say to myself, when I'm doing it, just keep it simple. Why do you need to have this indicator? Why do we need to be having that? I totally agree with what you've promoted and talked about for so long. And I think I was probably watching on Option Genius probably before you even started doing podcasts. But over the years, I've come and gone. I've been involved with and I've been with other things. And I've on and off as we mentioned before, right? All right. Does that help answer the question? Allen: No. So what what what do you mean by the next level? Is it an income? Is it is it a certain amount of money in the account is a certain amount of money every month? Where it is it that you say okay, now I've arrived now I have achieved my goal? What what is that number so that you would be able to be like, Yes, I feel happy though. Mark: Okay, so I've sort of thought about that. And I've put a number down to 10k. Now that's a pie in the sky dream. That's a pie in the sky dream. I know. And that's a long way off being achieved. I would just like to be able to see some consistency, all that stuff that you promote consistent, being profitable, and I can do that. But then as you know, you get one or two trades that wipe you out, wipe it back to zero and then it got to start again. Right? So just not we're just not getting that constant. Right? What do they call it.. Allen: Okay, so 10k is the goal. Now, it's not a it's not a it's not a pipe dream. It's so 10k is the goal. If you got 10k every month, you'd be happy. You'd be like okay, I've made it you know I'm accomplishing And that this stuff is actually working. Finally, this stuff is actually working if you were making 10k a month. So tell me, what is it that you think is keeping you from doing that? Mark: Well, clearly a lack of funds at this stage. But I have had numerous accounts where they've had a substantial amount of money in there, but I've just brought it right back down to just doing one lots, until I can see the consistency and seeing that, the, that my trading works, it's consistent, well, then we can scale up. So I'd rather than that, so I'm happy to do just one month a month, which means I'm not gonna make 10 grand in the near future, right, those types of trades, but we can scale that up at a later date. Allen: But what do you so if you were to say, hey, Alan, give me this one thing, and I know I can make tons of money. What is that one thing? Mark: Well, I suppose it's like a business plan, isn't it, like a franchise to follow a step by step thing, do this, do this, do this, do that put it on, obviously, there's a little bit of, there's gonna have to be a little bit of a thought process and feel for the market. But I suppose I need a plan. Like I know how to put the trade on, I know how to do a credit spin on it, for example, but I suppose I need a set of rules or business plan or like something to follow. So that way, I can just follow the recipe for a particular day, not particular strategy, but it's very hard to identify it or pinpoint it down to one thing. Like I've written all these notes in the book and pages and pages of all these things that you're discussing the iPad and whatnot, and try to answer those questions myself. Like, what am I looking for? What's stopping me I've written here a recipe, a plan, a template to follow rules to follow or to abide by tools, treat it like a franchise, for instance. So that way, I'm not deviating to another thing. So I have it on my wall and write down Am I following those particular plans? Does that is that sort of answer the question?  Allen: So do you not have any trading plans right now? I mean, you said you were in different programs and everything so did you do you have any that you've been using as a guideline as a framework? Mark: The cover I've written things down in the past but I suppose sticking to it, or having it visible is difficult. I suppose someone to write one with me or for me to say right this is a trading plan. This is what you need to have in it to follow I suppose I haven't really been given a choice like if it says write a trading plan, write down this stuff, write it down, but I suppose I just want to try it like this is what's going on my head just put the trades on just put the trades on work with the probabilities. Yeah, it should work out. Allen: Okay, and are you conservative or aggressive? Mark: I believe I'm conservative in the sense where at the moment like with the one loss, so like, if I was aggressive, I'd be going right I'm pretty positive this trades gonna work of two or five, or 10 lot but at the moment, it's like let's just hold back and do one more being conservative. I think I can be aggressive if I need to be but on how Allen: And how much percentage return are you looking to make? Mark: I knew you're gonna ask me that question. And I don't actually have a percentage. I've just I suppose a bad way of saying it but I just keep putting the trades on and hope that the probabilities work out so I don't have a particular percentage amount that I've got Okay. When you ask that question Allen: obviously so obviously you know, just putting the trades on hoping they work out that's not working. So we're gonna have we're have to refine this What strategy do you think most appeals to you? Mark: Well, obviously I've been working on the credit spread that's probably the one thing that I've done the most of the credit spreads like I've done in many others, but that's the one that I've probably done the most so in the last few years. Allen: Okay, and are you keeping track record of all the trades that you've been doing? Mark: No, I don't. I have written them down in the past. I do try to follow that put it in a journal, but over time, it just becomes cumbersome I suppose like it's writing it all down. I don't I don't stick to it. It's probably the kind of problem there. Allen: So what you said is you want to franchise, and in the franchise are going to tell you the first thing is to document everything you're doing. Because we cannot tell what's going wrong if we don't know what you already did. So having a firm plan that says okay, I'm gonna put this trade on and writing down why, why am I putting this trade on? Because it's moving higher because it's got news coming out because it's high. It's, you know, very volatile right now or the IV is off or whatever their reasoning is, you put the rig, you put it there, you write the trade, you record what happened, why or why did not work out. And then after you do a whole bunch of these, you can go back and look at it and say, okay, every time I do a trade that's at, you know, 35 Delta, it works wonderfully. But every time I do any other Delta, it doesn't work. So I'm just going to do that 35 delta. So if you want to find your own trading plan, then this is how you do it. Now, this is a long way to do it, it's going to take a long time, because you're going to have to test different things and try different things and see what's working, what's not working. But it would be one way for you to create your own plan based on what you find you're more comfortable in, because some people they come in and they tell me, hey, you know what I want to do Credit spreads, and I want to do 2025 Delta spreads, some people don't want to do five Delta spreads, you know, so everybody's comfortable with different things. And then based on the amount of credit they get, then we can figure out okay, how do we how do we manage the trade, some people should be not managing the trade at all, they should just be getting in and getting out at a certain amount. Some people, they can go ahead and say, hey, my trade is going bad, I'm going to, you know, adjust it or do something else with it. So depending on what we're thinking, when we get in will dictate what we do when we're in the trade. Mark: So now that I know what I do for trades, there are particular entry signals that I looked for, like I don't just go and find a stock and then look up a chain and then play delta and put it on. I do have, like, for example, I think there's market volume, I use volume. So obviously, when volume is increasing, I'll have them put on a put trade, obviously, when the stocks turning or progressing. And obviously over the three averages, like you say, things like that. So there are particular indicators, and not too many I do try and keep it fairly simple, I believe, before I put anything on, so I do try and put the weight in my favor. And the advocate of that, of course, by using those some small indicators to try and get it on sideways or progressing in the in the direction that we think it's going. So I do look at that I'm not a big person, I'm gonna use a 35, Delta, or 45, or whatever. Right? Okay, I understand the Delta side of things. But it's more about volume, I suppose at this stage and what. Allen: Okay, so that that's good to know. Right? So I mean, what I would do is, I probably have a sheet, kind of like a checklist, you know, so get it out of your head, and onto an actual piece of paper, where every single trade you have to mark it off, you know, the volume is high, yes, you know, movement is this way or whatever, whatever your your things are, you check it off. One, two, three.. Mark: I actually have done that I can attest that I have done that I've written down, like when the bar gets lower than the level of bar, it's time to get in or when a turn when it points up. It's getting. So I have written most things down in the past. Yes. Allen: So that'll be your trade law right there. That's if you do if you have the discipline to do that, before you put in the trade, you'll you'll know at the end, okay. You know, just go back to that journal and be like, Okay, what worked and what didn't work? What are the patterns. And that's kind of the stuff that I was doing originally, when I was first starting to figure this stuff out, is look at every single one. And now I have my my checklist, where if there are two or three things that I cannot mark off, I don't put the trade on, because I know that hey, there's not enough, you know, these things are really important. I want them, I don't want to put a trade on without everything checked off. Allen: Now, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to lose, like you still lose on the trade with everything checked off. But like you said, you know, we're putting the odds in our favor. As many times if you have a checklist, like you said you did. That's your journal right there. And so before you put on the trade, you just mark it off, you know, check, check, check, check, oh, I can't check this one. Then later on, after the trades are done, you do 2030 trades, at least, then you can go back and look at and say okay, I lost on these three trades. What is the pattern I lost on these five trades? What is the pattern? And you might find a pattern, you don't have to but you might find something that say okay, these indicators, you know, they're not working or they are working. The other thing is, I mean, it's, it's really simple, right? You find the strategy that you want. And you said, Hey, I found the strategy. Second step is to find the trading plan, that you think you think will work and then is just test it and trade it and do it over and over over again. But the important part is that you have to stick to the plan. Do you think you stick to the plan, or is it? Is it a discipline? Mark: Tell me, tell me, what got you out? I've read your book or listen to your story. What part got you through that ceiling? Obviously, we're doing the same thing as we all do for such a long period of time. But there must have been something that clicked or something that you did or something did you get into? Was it a program for you? Was it someone that you got? Hold on What, what got you to that next level that we all tried to get to? Allen: It took time, it took discipline, there were a few things that really helped me. One was really sticking to the rules that I had set up. And really, it's about, you know, when it comes down to it, it's about putting the trades on with the odds in your favor as many ways as you can. And I learned about that later on, you know, having different different levels. But what I started to do, and the ones that I really started doing well on, and in the beginning, were iron condors. For some reason, that strategy really, really clicked with me. And I was like, Oh, my God, I gotta work. No, no, it doesn't work right now. But he's like, you know, that strategy really worked. And it was like, Oh, I can adjust it. So I might never lose money in the trades. It's just really awesome. But I still was having trouble following the rules. Because, you know, you have to work that. So there were there were a few ways. Number one is my wife got involved. Allen: So every day, she would, like I would have a list of all of my trades, and I would have all the rules, like when I needed to do what, so every day at a certain time, she would come upstairs because I was working from home and she wasn't she wasn't working. So she would come upstairs. And she would ask me, Okay, let's go through every single trade one by one by one. And so she'd be she'd have her notes. And she's, okay, this trade on Russell. Where is it now? And they go, Okay, this, it's up this much money, or it's down this much money? Okay. When are you going to adjust? Well, when this happens? And they said, where is it now? Say, Oh, it's right here. So do you have to adjust it? No, not yet. Okay, cool. Next one. All right. I did this. Okay. Why did you do this trade? And when are you going to adjust it? Should you have adjusted it? Yeah, I should have adjusted already. Why didn't you adjust it? Ah, I don't know. She's like, Oh, what the hell are you doing?  Mark: All that is basically you got your wife involved? Allen: I mean, not just involved, but she was holding me accountable. So I had to answer because she doesn't need to know anything about trading. But she just needs to look at my rules and ask me the questions like, hey, what's the trade doing? Is it up or down? Why have you not? What are you going to do about it? And if there is something to do about it, what are you going to do? So it's just asking yourself those questions every single day. And it helped. I used to do that on my own. But I would always ignore the answers. Because I didn't have anybody to answer to. It's like, oh, I'm a trader, I'm the boss, I make my I'll make the decisions. But when she came in, I knew I had to answer to her. And if I don't have a good reason, then I'm putting her money on the line as well. Right? I'm putting her future on the line as well. So we would have a discussion about that. So I knew in advance, I knew, Okay, she's coming at one o'clock, I need to make sure I got everything right. I'm doing everything right. Otherwise, we're gonna have an argument. And so I needed her. Like, in the beginning, I wasn't, I was I lost a lot of money. And so the only reason that I didn't have to go out and get a job was because she was patient with me. But it was part of it was like, she's going to be the boss, right? Until I turn it around. And until I break the ceiling, she's the boss. She's going to tell me what I can do what I cannot do based on how I'm doing. And so I call that my one o'clock, you know, fire drill. It's like every day at one o'clock, I still do it. I go through every single trade and I look at it and say okay, is this trade up or down? It's up. Okay, good. Allen: What happens if it goes down a little bit? Am I still going to be okay? Yes. Okay, move on to the next one. And so I don't have time to do that on 100 trades. So that's why I limit the number of trades I have. But every day I go in and I look at it and I monitor it I know where each trade stands. So that before it starts to get into trouble, I know and I can look at it and be like okay, this one I need to monitor this one I need to adjust early or this one I need to maybe just exit it because it's not acting right. It's not acting properly. So It kind of gives me you know, so having that while you go in every day and look at each trade, and everybody does that. But in order to you ask yourself the right questions, and then you have to do what you need to do. So just monitoring the trades, and just checking on them is not enough. You have to know, okay, this is my plan, and I have to do this, then you have to stick to it. And then if you have an accountability partner, or if you have a wife or a child, or whatever, if somebody comes in and asks you, hey, you were supposed to do this, well, why didn't you do it? And then you have to answer to them. So when you have somebody else there, that automatically, I mean, that instantly made me better, like instantly, the first day, second day she came in, you know, I just I just started following the rules, because I knew I had to, I had to give her an answer. So that was one of the things that did it. Allen: The other thing was that I realized that this is a long term game. And so you've read the passive Trading Book. So I wrote that book, because I saw that if you're only selling options, eventually, you don't like the options can go against you. So what I mean by that is, in the financial crisis, when we had the financial crisis in 2008, there was everything was just going up and down. And so if I had options on if I trades on those trades lost, and then I could never get that money back. That's when I realized that, okay, you know, if I want to play the long game, if I want to be in this forever, I cannot let something else knock me out. I cannot let a COVID 19 pandemic knock me out, I can't let the financial crisis I can't let you know, the President making some decision and sending the stocks down, knocked me out. And so I started building up the foundation of stocks, and using those to generate capital on those. And the idea is, hey, I want to own the stocks as my foundation. But I want to use options as basically like a rocket ship, you know, so I wanted to boost the returns. So I'm gonna have conservative stuff in the in the main portfolio, you know, where I have the stocks, and I'm making money. Mark: I totally agree with all right. Yeah. Allen: So, you know, that was now Mark: I totally agree with all that, definitely. Allen: So you can't start off that way. Because it takes a lot of money to own that stocks. So in the beginning, you do have to get good at picking one strategy, getting good at it, just following it and being disciplined, and saying, Hey, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to follow it along. Now, again, long term, picture wise, every month, you're not going to make money, every trade is not going to make money. So you have to have that in your in your mindset that, hey, sometimes it's gonna work, and sometimes it's not. So there's lots of lots of little little things that you can improve on it. But the biggest thing that I'm seeing is that you have to follow the plan. Mark: So Allen, do you think that I would benefit? Like I know you're selling plenty of courses, promote what you promote in the book. And I totally agree with all that, I get it on one side. But if I was to do another course, such as yours, I my fear is, and we're just going down that same rabbit holes, as I've done before, hence why I'm confused as to why I can't seem to break that ceiling. If I was to go into a course such as yours, this one that you're the passive trading and whatnot, I worry that I really fear that a year I am going into it again, I'm doing another course. But I understand the strategy. I think now I need more of a coach, maybe I need maybe that one on one, maybe maybe that's what I need. Or maybe there are things that I'm not happy to admit to that I do that I need to be changed. I need to be molded stead of going down this direction on to be heading over in this little bit direction over here with my trading. I understand the why thing. That's a great thing in my voice. She's a great supporter of me. I am trying to I'm trying to get out of work. She works. I'm trying to get her out, keep trying and trying and time is your course gonna sit me on that path to freedom. Allen: So it's like, you know, I mean, I'll give you an example. Like when people go to college, right? They everybody's told go to college, go to college, some people they go to college, and they just they just party the whole time and they don't get anything out of it. Some people go and they study, study, study, study, study, and they get a good job. Some people go and they make lots of contacts, you know, they they meet, they make lots of friends. They meet lots of teachers so that when they get out, they know a lot of people and they have a good network and then that helps them so it's really up to each person individually. Now I would love to say that yes, every single person that takes my course makes them million dollars. But that's not the reality. You know, people come in, life happens, they take it seriously, they don't take it seriously. And, you know, that's, that's one part I cannot control. So I cannot tell you that, yeah, you know what, it's going to work for you just because it's, I'm amazing. And I'm a wonderful person, and it's just gonna work. 90% of it is on you, I can give you everything I know, I can do it with you. But again, the markets have to cooperate. Number one, and then number two, it has to click for you, you have to do it, and you have to practice it. And you have to stick to the plan. A lot of times when people come into my programs, and they tell me Oh, hey, you know, I'm doing XYZ, I'm like, but that's not what I have in the plan. Allen: That's not what I have in the program. They're like, yeah, no, but I'm changing. I'm like, okay, but have you done it my way? No, not yet. But then why did you join my program, you could do your own way. Without my program, you don't need to pay for my program, right? If you're going to pay for something. And if you believe that, hey, yeah, this guy knows what he's talking about this thing works, I think it works. If you're going to pay for it, then just follow that step by step by step and don't change it. Unless it works.  Allen: When it starts working, then only then would you say, Okay, now I'm going to, you know, change it up, because I think I can, I can be a little bit more aggressive, or, hey, I want to be a little bit more conservative, or I want to change it up a little bit. But you don't do that until it's always working. So the problem is that people that have been doing this for a long time, they know all the strategies, they've listened to many other coaches, you know, they come in, and they're like, Well, you know, I don't like that one thing, I'm going to change, I don't like that thing, I'm going to change. And so they start doing it their own way and they don't listen. And so you can't take stuff from this course and this course and this course and mash it into a Frankenstein, and then tell me "Oh, it didn't work?" Well, because I don't know why that guy told you to do that. And I don't know why that other guy told you to do that. Or the only thing I know is if you do it this way, you'll get the similar results that what I'm doing. Now, if you add and change it, then I can't help. So, you know, like you're saying that we have, I think there's like four pillars that I tell people that people need. So if you want to learn how to do something, you need these four pillars. Number one is you need the right strategy, which you've already said is, hey, that's the credit spread, right? Number two, you need the trading plan that works. So number three, is you need other people to do it with because you're doing it all alone, like you said, you know, you might need a wife, if you don't have a wife or partner like that, then you can have a community or other students that are doing it the same way. Allen: And then number four, you need a coach that can actually show you what he's doing, because he's still doing it. And he's actually doing it right now, instead of somebody that said, oh, yeah, I was a market maker 30 years ago, and I don't trade anymore. So I think those are the four things and depends on which everybody needs. So the coaching part is the one that takes the most time. And that's why those coaching programs are the most expensive. Allen: In my passive trading course. You know, we give you the trading plan. It's like okay, here, this is the plan, these are the rules, you follow it and, you know, good luck. But there's no one on one coaching. There's no group, you know, where we are, where we're doing and looking at the trades. And so when we have that passive trading course, it's a cheaper course. And so people would join it, and they would go through the modules. And some people would have a lot of success, some people wouldn't. So I said, What, what's the problem? Why are they not? Why is it not working? And I realized that it would help if they could just spend a lot more time with me. And so we created that credit spread mastery course, where every week, we get on the call, and we're just looking for trades, we're managing trades, we're adjusting trades, doing it together. So the point of that is, here's the rules. Here's the trading plan. Now let's do it together, over and over and over and over and over and over. And so once you have that habit of doing it the same way over and over and over the other, the other ideas, the other habits kind of die off. So I've seen that that program does deliver results. So we back it up and we say hey, look, if you're in our program, and the program doesn't work, like you don't if you're not profitable in our program, then we keep you in the program. We keep working with you. We keep you in the class until you become profitable. And so even if the markets not cooperating That's fine, we'll learn how to manage it together. And then we'll stay longer in the program, if you'd have to be.. Mark:  So with your target trading alum, obviously, it does take a type of market. And obviously, that's why through the last six months with Covid whatnot, it would be easy Earth to do that type of training, because obviously, it just went straight up didn't keep they're still on put, credit spreads the load of was money for Jim, in a market such as what we're in now, which is up and down, up and down. It's far more difficult, isn't it? Allen: Currently it is more difficult, doesn't mean it's impossible. So we do have to dial back our, we have to dial back our expectations. So last year, the year before, you know, making 10% a month, 7-8% a month, not a big deal, it was pretty simple. You know, put the trades on most of them work out in anybody, and everybody was making money. Like any you know, you could buy anything, and it was going up any everyone is making money. This is a market where you have to be really good at selection, trade selection, and management. So you have to know when things are turning around, and when to get out before they get really bad. Allen: So the trade management, sticking to your stop loss is very important right now. And those are things that most people get afraid of, you know, so it's like, okay, I put the trade on, it should work. And then oh, no, the stocks turning around, what do I do what I do, and they don't do anything. So if your thing is part of, if you're doing as part of a group or in a program, then be like, hey, we need to get out, we need to get out, get out, get out. Some people let people know, Mark: There's that mental component, that's the biggest part. And as I've gone along this journey, if all these years, I've realized more so in the latest year, it's not about the strategy. It's not about all that stuff. That mental side of it, it's 80-20, Mark Douglas, the book, the trading zone, I listened to that over and over and over again, and various other podcasts and whatever other things, but trying to pull the trigger when you're in a loss is it wasn't so hard, we put this trade on, it was gonna work a met the probabilities, it was all looking good, it was under the over the top of the averages. I had volume, blah, blah. But all of a sudden, now I'm underwater again. And here we go again, and then I've got to pull a trigger to get out to take that loss. Mark: And I have taken some big losses in the past, I've had to pull the trigger, just recently with the weekly trading system. And when that I mean, there's Solomon says, I've been there for a couple of weeks, again, I've been on and off over the over many years. And all of a sudden, now I'm having to pull the trigger again to get out because we lose money. Like it's hard. It's another scar, isn't it another scar, not a scar, it's another get back down there. You know, I don't want to see you do any good. It's difficult, you know, and that's that mental side of it is arguments or trading? Allen: Yep. The emotions, you know, the emotions have to be kept in check. So there's different ways that you could do that, you know, one, one of the ways is people say that you divorce or divorce yourself from the outcome. So whether you win or lose, doesn't matter make a Mark: ..difference? Exactly what I totally agree with that. And that skill is very difficult. Allen: Yeah, your job is to just follow the plan and stick to the plan. And if you can do that, eventually, over the long run, it'll work out, you know, maybe you have losing trades, that's fine. But over the long run, it should work out. So too much of it, like you said, you know, like, oh my god, I'm, I'm going to be negative again, oh, my God, I'm gonna have to pull the trigger. And oh, my God, you know, when you have that kind of reaction, that compounds and it just makes it all, it makes it much harder to get out of the trade when there is a loss. The other there's one lady, she told me something that really worked for her. She goes, You know what, this is not my money. This is God's money. And what what are you talking about as God's money? She goes, Well, I use this money. And I use the gains from the money to do good. Because they use it for charity work. So she's like, I don't need the money to live. Because I have enough income I have enough. You know, I have I have money coming in that I live off of. But this is my trading money. And so I take the money that I make, and I give it away to charity, and I do good things with it. So it's really God's money, and I cannot lose God's money. There's no way I can lose money. And so if I'm if I'm going negative, that the trade is losing, I get out right away because I don't want God mad at me because it's not my money. So that's another way you could look at it. That you know, again, it's it's taking yourself out of the outcome, you know, and it's not like okay, it's not under my control. So you've got the wife coming in and asking you what you're doing and why it's working or why it's not working and being accountable. You have you know, not looking at the outcome just getting better as a trader, just hey, I need to do my skills, whether it wins or not, that's not up to me. That's up to the market, I can't control that. But I can follow my plan. That's up to me. The other thing is, you know, not looking at it in emotional point of view, like, Hey, this is not my, maybe this is my kid's mind. Maybe this is, you know, God's money, however you want to look at it, but it's not yours. So if you lose it, it's bad. Like, that's the worst thing to happen. You know. So there's, there's three different ways that you can mentally overcome the different obstacles. But again, I think one thing that we haven't talked about yet is to simplify, right? So you've done all the different strategies, and I'm sure, you know, some of it is creeping in. And, you know, it's like, oh, you know, I got to do this, or I'm going to, I'm going to wait for this indicator, or I'm going to wait for these Bollinger Bands, or the Fibonacci, or the technicals, or any of that stuff, the more you simplify it, the easier it becomes to actually follow through with it. And so I think, you know, just one strategy, not chasing after the shiny object, you know, it's like, Hey, make a decision. If it's spread, spreads, and that's the only thing you focus on, and you get rid of everything else, you stopped listening to everything else, you unsubscribe from all the emails, you know, whatever, whatever service that you choose, like, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to follow this plan, I'm going to, you know, if you've taken a course, maybe you've already taken a course, you have a course that you've tak`en and be like, Okay, I like this course, I'm going to follow this course, we'll get rid of everything else. Just go through it. Master that and don't do anything else until you know what that is, until you get the results that you're supposed to get it. In the beginning, when I started screwing up, like I would learn something, and then I would do good for a little bit and then I would mess up. And then I would do good, then I would mess up. So I was like, What the hell do I do? Well, I would always go back to the basics. I would imagine that I don't know anything. And I would go back to step one. Okay. What is a call? What is the put? What am I doing here? What is the strategy? How am I supposed to put it on? What are the rules and I gotta follow them step by step by step, not like, oh, you know, I'm gonna, I think this stock is gonna go down or or, you know, there's a Fibonacci retracement level, and there's some support here. So I don't have to adjust. No, forget all that stuff. I don't know any of that stuff. All I know, is the strategy and my trading plan. And that's it. And so that was, you know, you go back to the basics. And that will change your mentality of it, like, Okay, how do I manage the trade? How do I deal with this? Allen: Again, if there's other things involved, like stress, you know, if you're under a lot of stress, you're going to make the wrong decisions. If it has to work. If I have to make money this month, from my trades, you're going to make the wrong decisions. It's not going to work out in the long term. So there was a there was something another trick that one of our one of our students taught me. And now everybody can't do this. Most people can't do this. But what he does, is that he takes whatever money he makes trading this year. He will live off that next year. So when he's trading next year, he doesn't have to live off that money. Because he already has the money set aside from the last year. If that makes sense. Mark: You need a big bankroll sounds like a real estate agent. Allen: Yeah, you need Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was. He was a politician. But, um, he has obviously, other people's money then. So I mean, he did have, you know, he had, he had a large account to do that. But eventually, that would be the best thing to do. You know, you have you already know your expenses are covered. Right? Now, you're only focusing on the plan and focusing on on just winning and just trading properly. It's not it takes the emotion out of so whatever you can do, whatever trick you can use to get that emotion out of it, that will make you a better trader. One, one more thing that that that that I've seen is happening to me is, the more you do it, the more of a habit it becomes. So if you do, you know, 50 trades, that's a lot better than five trades, but 500 trades is a lot better than 50 trips, if you do them properly with the right practice. So eventually, you get to the point where Oh, it's just another trade. It's not a big deal. It's just another trade. There's another one coming. So if I get if I hit my stop loss, yeah, it hurts. I hate it. But it's Just another trait, you know, I'm going to move on, move on to the next one, move on to the next one, because every month is a different ballgame. So you start over, you get to start over again and again and again. And so that is another trick that you would help in the long run. But again, you know, you have to, in before all of that happens, you have to have the confidence that this actually works. Mark: So what do I truly do believe in? Allen: Yes, you say that you say that. But then you also say that, you know, I can't do it. It's not working. It's not working. But you, you you've heard it that it works, you want to believe that it works. But I don't think you have that conviction yet that it works. And so the only way to get that conviction is to get it done for yourself. Right? And so it might be that you take a maybe you take a step back, and you go even simpler. And you say you don't want not the credit spreads, how about I do something like maybe a naked put, right, in a naked put, I'm going to make money if the stock doesn't go down. And it'll expire. And then I'll sell another one. And I'll sell another one. And I'm going to sell it far out of the money. So that I just when I just make that 20 bucks, or that $30 or whatever it is that small amount I'm just going to make month after month after month trade after trade I'm going to make and if the stock drops, okay, no fine, I can buy the stock, no big deal, I'll buy the stock. And then I'll sell covered calls on that stock. And so the covered call will expire, and I'll make something the covered call was expired, the next month will expire, and I'll make something so you build up that confidence that you know what, there is a way to do this. That's another option, you know, if you want to go that route, so you really got to figure out like, okay, you know, it's a, it's a personal thing, I wish I could just tell you that, hey, this is the one thing you need to do. But for everybody, it's different. And unless I spent a lot more time with you, unless I see all of your trades, unless I see you know, your emotion, how you handle the emotions, I won't be able to tell you. So that's kind of like in our in our program, what we do is we tell we give everybody a spreadsheet, and we say, hey, look, you have to fill out the spreadsheet, you have to put every single trade on the spreadsheet. And then they shared with me so that I can go in and I can look at them. You know, I could look at the tray. And I'll go in I'll see like, why did he do this trade? This doesn't make any sense to me. And I'm calling this Hey, John, why did you do this tray? Allen: And he goes, well, no, that's not gonna work. And he goes, okay, okay, fine, I'll do it. All right, done. You know, and if they're doing all the trades, right, then it's probably working. And most of the time, it's not working, like if they're not making money, then we can identify, Okay, what are what is not going right? You know, there was one of our current students, he was doing several trades, and he was still negative. So I looked at his spreadsheet, and I'm like, Okay, what's going on? What do I see, and his trade entries were great. You know, he was picking the right stocks, he was doing it properly. But whenever he lost, he would lose a lot more than he should have. He just wasn't getting out early on time. And so that was the biggest thing is like, you're not getting out. This is it, you know, your losses are too big. Doesn't matter how many trades, you win, your losses are still too big, you're still going to be negative. And so we worked on that. And then over time, he got better at getting out earlier and earlier and earlier. But he had, you know, he had somebody to look at that and to point it out, and to hold him to it. So that eventually he did it over and over and over again. And then by the end of the class, he was positive. He was like, Yeah, I fixed it. Again, that's all you need to do. That was he needed that one thing, everything else is simple. The training plan I could give you, you know, you could go do it on your own. But the discipline part of it, that's sometimes where we need help from somebody else. And so whether you know, it might be a wife might be somebody else, it might be a trading partner, somebody you work with, it might be a coach. So I think that might be one thing that you could implement. Mark: So just quickly, what what's the key points in a trading plan make like entry criteria, stop losses or that sort of stuff. Is there anything else that I can many points or rules should be in a trading plan? Like what I try and put a trading plan together, that is doable and simple to follow. To look at rather a complicated bloody list of all this crap, what would be a good trading plan? Allen: So, you want it to be simple and easy to implement. But you don't want it to be too simple, where it's just broad, like anything can happen. So, you know, I've seen people that have a trading plan that says, I'm going to do an iron condor on this stock 45 days to expiration, I'm going to sell a 10 Delta calls and sending out the puts. And that's it. That's my whole plan, and I'm just gonna sit and let it expire. That's a trading plan. It's very simple, right? You know, what you're going to do you know, what you're going to how you're going to do it, you know, what you're going to trade it on. And you know, when. And so now that pretty good plan doesn't work. So whoever's listening don't don't do that one. We've back tested that, and it didn't work. But there are, there are times there are several months where it does work, just because it has, you know, 80% probability, but over time, it doesn't. So that's the basics, you got to know what you want to trade, you need to know the strategy, you got to know what you want to trade. And then you have to know what constitutes a good setup. So when it comes to credit spreads, you mentioned credit spreads. So I like to do that, depending on the size of the of the trade, if it's a you know, maybe a $5000 $10,000 trade, then I'll go into I can go into a stock, or I'll go into an index ETFs are good, too. But they're their strikes are a little bit smaller. So you got to do a lot more contracts. But if I can go into a stock that has, you know, five point spreads, and I do 10 of them. That's a $5,000 trade. That'll work. Allen: So you can, what do you want to trade? And then what's the proper setup? So for me, again, I like to keep it simple. So if I see a stock that's trending, as moving up, or moving down, then I'm happy to trade it. Because I'm, I'm more of a trend follower, you know, so there's people that think, okay, if the stock is gonna go up, it's going up, it's going to keep going up until something big changes, there are other people that think the opposite. They're like, Oh, if it's going up, they just kind of come back down, because it's gonna do reversion to the mean. And sometimes that works. And sometimes it doesn't. So I don't really buy that I just like, hey, if it's going up, then it's telling me that it wants to go higher. So that's basically what I'm looking for. In a setup, I'm looking for the stock to tell me what it wants to do. So if I see a stock that's jumping up and down, no, I don't know what it's doing. I don't know what it's telling me, I can't understand the language, I'm not going to trade it. If it's going up, then I'm going to play it bullish. If it's going down, I'm going to play bearish. And sometimes, you know, it turns around and you get banked, but most of the time it's going to work out. So that's the kind of setup I'm looking for. And then over the years, you know, we've added other things to look at, you know, how do you make sure that all of your trades are not in the same sector? Right now, you know, right now, oil has been doing well. So all of the oil companies were doing great. But then they all turned around and went down all together. So if you have 10 trades on in different oil companies, that's not that's not diversification. That's the same trade. And so if they turn around, I'm going to turn on together. So that would be one way of putting the odds in your favor by having you know, only a small portion of your account in one sector. So you have to separate that. How do you diversify by time? You know, so not putting all your trades on on the same day. That's another way to do it. So you diversify by time. So there's so many different ways that you can do it, some of them might make sense to you some might not. And then, you know, we have other students that come in and say, Well, I do it, you know, I look for this also in my trade, like, Okay, if that's what you want to add to it, then add it. Don't subtract things that I've given you. But if you want to add to it, one student said that he likes to look at the weekly chart, I usually look at the daily chart, see how the stock is doing. He likes to look at the weekly chart as well. Allen: So I'm like, Okay, fine, you can add to it, you know, if it doesn't hit your criteria on the weekly chart, then just means you'll have less trades that qualify, but it's not gonna it's not going to put you into a trade that's going to hurt. So when you're basically you just have to figure out what you think is going to work. And then you have to test it. So back testing, and paper trading are really really, really helpful. Especially back tests, Mark: I find paper trading useless. To be honest. You lose interest very quickly. It's very easy to lose in that type of trading. Yeah, go ahead. I've done a little bit of paper trading and I've just found that I find okay, it's gone the wrong way. But I got it wrong. You just let it go. Because it doesn't mean anything. It has no significance, does it? Start with money trading? Yeah. You've got a connection heavenly with the with the live trading, because actually, it's not your money tied to it. Allen: It's not your money. It doesn't matter what the style of the trade does, you're only focusing on becoming a better trader, the goal is not to make more money, the goal is to become a better trader. Right? It's kind of like playing poker. It's like when you when people go to play poker, right? They'll professionals, they'll tell you that if they play their hand perfectly, and they lose, they're okay with it. Right? If they play, if they mess up, and they still win, they're still mad at themselves. Because I didn't play it right. I didn't play my cards, right? Even though I won, I don't care, because long run, it's going to hurt them. If they keep playing incorrectly in the long term, it's going to hurt them. So that's the goal to become the better trader. And the end results, the profits will take care of themselves. So paper trading is practice. That's all it is. Right? If you didn't need to take that on board. It's slow practice. Back testing, I prefer back testing way better than paper trading. Because you can go really quick. You know, if you if you come up with a plan, like okay, these are my criteria, I got these seven criteria on my trading plan. I'm going to enter when I see this, this and this. I'm going to exit when this happens. I'm going to adjust it this way If this happens, okay, I got that right and down, and that you can even just come up with your you can just guess No, I think this one's good. This one's good. That's my plan. Okay. You pick. You pick a stock, spy. Great, perfect. You go back to yours in time. January 1, put the trade on. How does it do? Oh, it made money. Awesome. Cool. February, how do you do made money? Great. March. Oh, we lost a lot of money. Doing it, huh? Okay. APR, how do you do? And then just do it month by month, I want back testing one month or one trade, you know, might take you five or 10 minutes. And so you can get years worth of practice in just a few days by back testing. And you'll find that Mark: It's something that I've never done is back testing. Is there a particular software that's adequate for that sort of stuff? I've never really looked down that line. I've heard about it. I've listened to it, but I've never actually really done it myself. Is there anyone ticular that would be worthy. Allen: The one that I use, the one that I use is called the option net explore. option that explore? Yeah, and I think I think they're based out of Great Britain. And so basically, it's, it's an options selling platform, you know, so it looks like your broker's platform, you put the trade on, and you go through it day by day by day. And it doesn't do it all for you, you actually have to look at it every single day. And if you want to make changes, you can make changes to it. That's what I like about it. There are other software's that you just put in the strategy, you press a button and it'll tell you "Oh, you made money or you lost money". That's not the point. We want to get better as a trader. Right. And so this one is like, Okay, I put the trade on, click a button. Oh, stock is down today. Do I need to do anything? No. Okay, next stage. Oh, stock is back up again. I don't have to do anything. Next stage. Oh, stock is down again. Oh, no, I'm at an adjustment point. Okay, what adjustment am I going to make? I'm going to do this adjust. Okay, cool. Let's see, did it work out? Go there forward today forward a day forward a day. Oh, expiration day stop. It worked. So it's, it's just, you know, there's no money, right? It's just about becoming a better trader. It's just about getting the practice doing it over and over and over again. So that I think would definitely help you as well. Mark: Okay, so one of the things obviously, we talked about discipline and the mental game, what's probably the best thing to follow, or to train your mental strength, like, as you said, like a paper trade or a live trade, you should be able to make that same decision, then in there without any emotional war. What's the best way to get to that level of trading where you whether you win or lose, it's just business as usual? Allen: Yeah, I've done to you have to divorce yourself from the outcome, whatever, whatever that takes for you. For me, in the beginning, it was getting my wife because I knew how I would have to answer to her. Mark: And scary Allen: I didn't have it. Exactly. It has to be scary. Because if you do it properly, she cannot get managed. Right? It's like, Hey, I followed the rules, babe. I did everything I was supposed to do. It still didn't work out and she'll be like, Okay, fine. That's no problem. But if you do not follow the rules, that's when she gets manage. And that's when it gets scary. So yes, you have to make it scary for you not to follow your rules, because a lot of us a lot of US traders, like, if we lose money, yeah, we don't we get mad about it, we're like, oh, man, I lost money, we feel bad about ourselves. But it doesn't hurt enough. You know, it's kind of like these people that say, Hey, I want to lose some weight. You know, so they make a goal, I'm gonna lose some weight, I'm gonna lose some weight, they tell everybody, and they do it for a few days, and then they give up. But then there's this website, that what, what this website, basically what it does is, you have to pick a, maybe a political party, or a person or some organization that you hate, you actually hate them. And you have to put up a lot of money and say, Okay, if I don't stick to my goal, this organization is going to get $5,000 or $10,000. So that makes you because it's now becomes a different level. It's not about just the money, or about doing the thing. It's like, okay, you know, let's say, for example, I don't want to give my money to anybody like the Save the whale Foundation, right? I don't want to, I don't want to give my money to the whales, I hate whales, I want them all to die. I don't want anybody to save the whales. So if I don't lose 10 pounds, they're gonna charge my credit card $5,000 and give it to the whales, and I hate whales. So I want to do whatever I have to do to lose that money to lose that weight. You know, because I don't want that well to be saved. You have to want something more than what you have. So there's, that's another psychological trick. No, in trading? We sometimes we get used to it, you know, it's like, oh, last? Oh, well, you know, we get used to it. And it just, we gotta it's just the mental part of it. Mark: Definitely, definitely, it's a huge part of it. Something I didn't I didn't realize, until much later down the track of trading, how big a part of mental side of it really is. Allen: I mean, if you find trying to avoid is difficult. Yeah. So if you find yourself having a problem with discipline, make it simpler, cut it down, make it as simple as possible. Find the trade that you know will like you know, the naked call or the naked put the covered call, these are very simple trades, they're really hard to mess it up. Right? On the naked put, if you get assigned the stock, hey, that's great. I just bought the stock much cheaper than it was before. And I'm going to own it. So you want to you want to do it on companies that you're going to own you want to own for a long period of time. That's the only way it really works. You can't you can't be selling naked puts on stocks that are just, you know, going crazy. That's the wrong way to do it. So you know, if you can simplify it, if you can find some way to have somebody else monitor you, and hold you to your fire, you know, hold your feet to the fire like, hey, you need to follow this, why aren't you doing this? Or, hey, it's not my money. Right? I'm doing it for somebody else. This is my kids inheritance, right? I cannot mess it up. So I have to follow the rules. One guy, when I was in, just after high school, I became an agent, a real estate agent. And as an agent, as a brand new agent, they tell you that you have to do a lot of things that you don't want to do. You have to talk to hundreds of people all the time, you have to cold call, people say Oh, Hi, are you doing? Do you want to sell your house? Oh, hi, do you wanna say, Well, you know, they have to keep doing things that you don't want to do. So it was like, okay, in the guy, the guy is like, hey, most of you guys are not going to do it. But if you want to be really, really, really motivated, what you need to do is go out and buy a fancy sports car. Sounds like what you're talking about, what do you do a fancy sports car? Because yeah, you need to go out and buy an expensive sports car so that you have that payment that you have to make at the end of the month. And so that is going to make you work your butt off because you have to make the payment. And as I go I mean, I understand what he was saying. I was like, No, I'm not doing that. But then eventually I didn't make it as a realtor. Maybe if I did do that, maybe I just didn't do the work that he told you to do. I just didn't do it. It wasn't the reward wasn't worth it for me. Mark: It was up to risk, I suppose. Yeah, Allen: I mean, you know, so with your training, you got to figure it out. Is it really worth it? Is the goal that hey, I want to quit my job. Is it I want my wife to quit her job. I want the kids to have this vacation or whatever it is. You have to burning. Yes, just eat you up every single day. You have to really really, really want it Mark: Explain to me how and it's burning me. Allen: Then the discipline has to stick. Because if you want it, but you're not disciplined, and your losses are too big, then it's it's not there yet. So I think, you know, if you don't have a trading plan, I'll just give you the training. You know, I mean, it's not that hard. It's not it's, it's the training plan helps. But it's up here. And it's the practice just doing it over and over and over again and having confidence in the plan. Because then if you have confidence, you'll stick to it. If you don't have confidence, you're going to change it, you're going to you're going to add things to it, you're not going to follow it, you're going to forget about it. Like with the paper trading, that's exactly what that is, you know, so it's not real. So, oh, well, I'm gonna ignore it. I'm gonna forget about I'm gonna do that.  Allen: That really resonated with me Allen's that that point, like, go back to the paper trading, treat it like it's somebody else's money, and then make it work. Don't look at it as just as being as a fake account, that doesn't matter. Allen: I mean, I wouldn't Yeah, I would prefer you do back testing, it'll be much faster. Mark: To look at that I'll get, I'll get onto that particular site that you've made. Yeah, Allen: That'll give you years of experience in just a few days. And so, to me,

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E41 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm Mark, one of your hosts. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we have a really exciting episode. We have an interview with a member of the Atheopagan Society Council, Michael, who is joining us today, and is gonna tell us about his journey and what this community means to him and his vision for the future and all kinds of cool stuff. So welcome. Michael: Well, thank you very much for having me. Mark: I'm delighted to have you here, Yucca: Thanks for coming on. Michael: Yeah, no, I'm excited. Yucca: Yeah. So why don't we start with so who are you? Right? What's, what's your journey been to get here? Michael: Gosh. Well, I kind of have to start at the very beginning. So my name's Michael and you know, I've, I start, sometimes I go by Mícheál, which is my Irish, the Irish version of my name. And that's something I've been using more as I've been involved in the Pagan community. My parents are both Irish and. They moved to the United States in their early eighties cuz my dad got a green card working over there Mark: Hmm. Michael: and I was born in America. And then they decided they want to move back to Ireland then in 1991. So already I had this kind of dissected identity. Was I American or was I Irish? I never really lost my American accent. When I, when I moved to Ireland my sister who was born in Ireland, she actually has a slight American accent just from living with me. So she never people always ask her, are you, are you American? And she's like, I've never lived there. So it's funny that it's kind of stuck with her, but I moved to Ireland and I suddenly was kind of got this culture shock at the age of five and moving to this new country. And my mother has a very large family, so she has like, two, two brothers and seven sisters, and then I've got like 30 cousins. So , it was a big, a big change from AmeriCorps. It was just the three of us. Moving back to Ireland and. It was a very, you know, Ireland, you know, is, would've been considered a very Catholic country, and it's been kind of secularizing since the nineties up until now. But back then it was still quite Catholic. Like homosexuality was only decriminalized in 1992 and divorce was only made legal in 1995. So, I guess the first kind of sense of, of what I meant to be Irish back then was, You know, you learned Irish in school, you learned to speak Irish in school, and this was very it wasn't taught very well, I would say, and I think most Irish people would agree with that. It's kind of taught like almost like Latin or something as a dead language rather than as a living language. So you're spending time learning all this grammar. And you don't kind of develop that love of it that I think you should. I did go to like Irish summer camp in the Gaeltacht . The Gaeltacht  is the Irish speaking area of Ireland, and I kind of became aware of my Irishness, you know, just through being part of all this and also. I would've introduced myself as American when I was little but people didn't really like that. It was kind of a, like a weird thing to do. So my mom eventually told me, maybe you should just stop paying that. And so throughout my I, you know, as I mentioned, it was a very Catholic country. And when I was in the Gaeltacht in Irish summer camp one of the kids said they were atheist. And I was like, what does that mean? I'm like, I don't believe in God. And I was, and in my head I was like, I didn't know you could do that, I didn't know that was an option. . So I kind of thought about it for a while. I became, we started studying the Reformation in school when I was about 14. And then I learned that Catholics believed in transubstantiation and nobody had really mentioned that before. They didn't really teach the catechism very well, I guess. I'd done my communion and my confirmation, but nobody ever mentioned that. We literally believed that the, the body and blood, you know, was that the bread and water? Oh, sorry. The bread and wine actually became literally, And the body. And I thought that was a very strange thing, that that was a literal thing. It wasn't just symbolic. And then we also studied Calvinism and all that stuff. And I was like, then I started to read the Bible and I was like, then it fun, it finally just dawned on me that I didn't believe any of this, and it was kind of liberating. But it was kind of a way of being d. In a very homogenous society too. You could be a bit of a rebel. So I think I was one of those annoying teenagers who was always questioning everybody and having, trying to have debates with everybody about religion and they didn't enjoy that . And so I went through school and I just remember hating studying the Irish language until eventually when I left school. On the last day, I actually took all my. My Irish textbooks and burnt them and I feel I . Yeah. I mean I feel so much guilt and regret about that and I think about that how important it's to me now and that, that was a real shame that, but I didn't, partially I didn't put the work in, but also I just think the structure. Was not there. I mean so many Irish people come out of outta school not really know, knowing how to speak the language, you know, and I think it is an effective col colonization as well, where, you know, you consider English is a useful language and learning French or Spanish, that's a useful thing, but there's no use for Irish in people's minds, which is a, and I find that a real shame and I. could go back and change that. In university I studied anthropology and history because I was very interested in religion. All throughout my teenage years, I was obsessed with learning about world religions, you know, there was a world religion class in, in secondary school. I didn't get into it, but I begged the teacher to allow me to. Into it because I was so interested in the topic. And he was like, fine, fine. And he kind of thought he'd humor me in one class one day and he was like, well, Michael, maybe you could talk about satanism. That's the topic for today. And I was like, well, let's start with Al Crowley. And he was like, okay, maybe he actually knows what he is talking about So, I went, I. I went to the university sorry, national University of Ireland, Minuth Campus. And it's funny because that used to be known as so it's actually, it's two campuses. They're St. Patrick's college, which is like a, a seminary for priests. And there's the I, which is like the secular version, and they're both, but they both share the same compass. So it's funny, it used to be the, the biggest seminary in Europe. They call it the priest factory cuz they pumped out so many priests that sent, sent them all over the world. And it's when you go out and you walk down the corridors, you see all the graduating classes. So you go back to 1950 and you see a graduating class of like a hundred priests. And every year as you're going down the corridor, it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Until I think the year I graduated, there was like two people graduating as priests. Yeah. So that was, that was a, I decided to study history and anthropology at n Y Minuth and one of the books that I read. Was kind of a gateway into thinking about land and language, which are two things that are really important to me in my, when I think about Paganism. It's a book called wisdom Sits in Places by Keith Bato, bass by Keith Bassell, and. I'm just gonna read a little bit here from the book because he was an anthropologist working with the Apache, the Western Apache, to try and remap the land using the Native Apache words rather than the, the English words. So trying to make a native map and working with Apache people to find all the true, the true names of all these. so this is the quote, but already on only our second day in the country together a problem had problem had come up for the third time in as many tries. I have mispronounced the Apache name of the boggy swale before us. And Charles, who is weary of repeating it, has a guarded look in his eyes after watching the name for a fourth. I acknowledged defeat and attempted to apologize for my flawed linguistic performance. I'm sorry, Charles. I can't get it. I'll work on it later. It's in the machine. It doesn't matter. It matters. Charles says softly to me in English, and then turning to speak to Morley. He addresses him in Western Apache, is what he said. What he's doing isn't right. It's not good. He seems to be in a. Why is he in a hurry? It's disrespectful. Our ancestors made this name. They made it just as it is. They made it for a reason. They spoke it first a long time ago. He's repeating the speech of our ancestors. He doesn't know that. Tell him he's repeating the speech of our ancestors. And I'm gonna just there's another section here, a little, a few pages. But then unexpectedly in one of those courteous turnabouts that Apache people employ to assuage embarrassment in salvage damaged feelings, Charles himself comes to the rescue with a quick corroborative grin. He announces he is missing several teeth and that my problem with the place name may be attributable to his lack of dental equipment. Sometimes he says he is hard to underst. His nephew, Jason, recently told him that, and he knows he tends to speak softly. Maybe the combination of too few teeth and two little volume accounts for my failing. Short morally, on the other hand, is not so encumbered though shy. Two, a tooth or two. He retains the good ones for talking and because he's not afraid to speak up, except as everyone knows in the presence of gar women no one has trouble hearing what he. Maybe if Morley repeated the place name again slowly and with ample force, I would get it right. It's worth a try, cousin. And then he, I'm just gonna skip forward a bit and he successfully pronounces the name, which translates as water Lies with mud in an open container. Relieved and pleased. I pronounce the name slowly. Then I, then a bit more rapidly and again, as it might be spoken. In normal conversation, Charles listens and nods his head in. . Yes. He says in Apache, that is how our ancestors made it a long time ago, just as it is to name this place. Mm-hmm. So this became important to me when thinking about the Irish language because something similar happened in Ireland in the you know, we have all our native Irish place. But in the 1820s the British Army's Ordinance survey came and decided they were gonna make these names pro pronounceable to English ears. And so they kind of tore up the native pronunciation and kind of push an English pronunciation on top. So you have these very strange English Anglo size versions of Irish Place names Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Soin in is is probably better known in English as dingle, but doesn't really have anything to do with the Irish. And there are plenty of, there are so many examples of this and I think when you're trying to learn about a landscape in your relation to a ship, to a landscape, it is important to know the native place. It's something that I think about a lot and I try to learn. One of my favorite writers is named Tim Robinson, and he's well he died in 2020. But I had the opportunity to meet him in 2009 and he was an English cartographer. But he moved to the west of Ireland, to the Iron Islands and also to Kamara. So he kind of moved between those two places. He lived there for more than 30 years, and what he actually did was he went out and mapped the landscape and talked to local people, and he was able to find some of the place names that had been lost over the years that weren't on the official maps, and he was able to help recreate a Gaelic map of those areas. I think that's a really kind of religious or spiritual activity to go out onto the land and walk it. And to name it and to name it correctly. And I think that's what I think my pagan path is in a way. It's to go and walk the land and learn it, what to call it. Cause I think language is the most important tool we have as pagans. Mark: Hmm. Michael: So those are, that's kind of when I started to think about this stuff. I've always been interested in folk. It was actually funny. There was, it started with a video game one of the legend of Zelda video games called Major's Mask Mark: Hmm. Yucca: Yep. Michael: in, in the game, they actually have like a mask festival and they dis they discuss the the history of the festival. Anna was just like, wow, I didn't, I ended up making masks with my sister and we kind of pretended to. A little mask festival of our own Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: that you're, you're familiar with that? Yucca? Yucca: Yes. Yeah, I played a lot of it. Michael: Yeah. So, but I guess I really started to think about folklore when when I watched the Wickerman as um, as a teenager. I was probably at 16 when I watched it, and it kind of opened my eyes completely. And we've talked a lot about this in the group. And I. It's watched as a horror movie in a way, but   I think I really got into the, the paganism idea of, of paganism as a teenager because of watching the Wickman and just the symbolism and the pageantry. And I also just like the idea. These island people turning on the state in the form of, of the policeman. So that's kind of been something I've that I've really enjoyed over the years, watching that every every May as part of my, my, my annual ritual so, you know, after university, I, I moved to South Korea to teach English, and, but at the same time I was quite into Buddhism. I had been practicing some Zen Buddhism from about the age of 18, and, but not like, more as just a practice rather than believing in any of it. Not believing in reincarnation or anything like that. I just found the ritual of it very beautiful. And I ended up going and doing a temple stay in a, in a place at, at a temple. Up in the mountains and it was very beautiful and really amazing. You know, something you'd see in a movie because the monk, the head monk actually brought us out into a bamboo grove and we sat there meditating just with all surrounded by bamboo. And it was waving in the wind and it felt like a correction, tiger Hidden dragon or something like that. And one of the powerful events that happened on that trip. Doing the Buddhist meal ceremony where we ate in in the style of a Buddhist monk. And the idea is that you do not leave any food behind. After you're, after you're finished eating, you've, you eat all the food, and then when you wash the bowls and they kind of put the communal water back into the, the, the waste bowl, there should be no no bit of food, nothing. It should just be clean water. That comes out of, after everybody finishes washing all their bowls. So we followed all the steps to do that and, you know, some people really, really weren't into it. They didn't wanna do the work of, of being extremely thorough. And there were a few rice pieces of rice in the water at the end and the head monk said to us oh, that will now get, you're, you're gonna cause pain to the hungry to ghost. Because the hungry goats ghosts have holes in their throats, and when we pour the water outside for the hungry ghosts, the rice particles are gonna get stuck in their throats. And a lot of people were like, what? What are you talking about Mark: Hmm. Michael: But I thought that was beautiful because it doesn't, not, you don't have to. It's a story that has a purpose, and that's why, you know, It made me think about the superstitions that we have. And I don't know if I like superstition like these, calling it that. Cause I think a lot of these things have purpose and you have to look for the purpose behind them. And the purpose of that story of the honky go story, maybe for him it is about not causing harm to these, these spirits, but it's also about not wasting food. And I think it, it has more power and more meaning. And you remember. More thoroughly when you have a story like that to back up this, this practice. So I think it kind of made me rethink a lot about the kind of folkloric things that I, in my, in the Irish tradition and that, you know, I think about things like fairy forts, which are, you know, the, these are the archeological sites that you find around Ireland. Like, I think there's like 60,000 left around the country. These, these circular. Homesteads that made a stone or, or saw, or saw that you find all over the country and people don't disturb them because they're afraid they'll get fair, bad luck. The, if you, if you disturb the, the fair fort the ferry's gonna come after you , or if you could, or if you cut down a tree, a lone tree. Lone trees that grow in the middle of fields that don't have a, a woodland beside them, just singular trees. These are known as fairy trees and it's bad luck to cut them down. But I feel like these folk beliefs help preserve the past as well, because, you know, farmers who don't have this belief, they don't have any problem tearing down fray, forts and that kind of thing. They just see it as a, something in the way of them farming, especially in the kind of age of industrial agriculture. Yeah. So it just made, that was when I started to think about how important it is to keep folk belief alive. And I've really, and I really started to study Irish folk belief after that point. And I lived in South Korea as I mentioned. I met my wife there, she's from Iowa and she was also teaching in, in South Korea, and we moved to Vietnam after that. And we lived there for a couple of years, and I might come back to that later. But fast forwarding, we moved to Iowa then in 2013, and I'm teaching a course in Irish. At a local community college, but I always start with this poem by Shama Heini Boland. And I just wanted to read two extracts from it. So the first stands out is we have no prairies to slice a big sun at evening everywhere. The eye concedes to encroaching. And then moving downwards. Our pioneers keep striking inwards and downwards. Every layer they strip, they, every layer they strip seems camped on before. So I, I started with that initially, kind of trying to, as, it was almost like a gateway for my students to kind of look at. Look at Iowa with its historic prairies, which don't really exist anymore. It's all farmland. There's very little prairie land left. I think maybe 2% of the state is prairie. But that idea, that idea of our pioneers strike downwards, and I've been thinking about that a lot as well, that that's kind of a, a colonial look at the land because this land, the American land has is just as camped. As Ireland, and I've been kind of experiencing that more and more. I have a friend who's an archeologist here and just hearing them talk about the kinds of fines that they have. You know, we lived in a town where there was a Native American fishing weir was a couple of hundred years old. It you could kind of see the remains, but it mostly washed away by the time we had. But I did see an old postcard of it from the seventies, and you could see it very clearly. And so just make, and then we always it's become a ritual every every autumn, we go up to northeast Iowa to these, to these effigy mounds, which are some Native American mounds up there on a bluff, just overlooking the miss. Mark: Hmm. Michael: And that's really amazing to look at that and experience and experience that. And you know, I'd love to go back, unfortunately, Shamus, he died more than 10 years ago now, but I'd love to go back and ask him if he would consider rewriting that line, you know, because this land is just as a count on Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: and I'm trying to, trying to make sense of that and what it means. As an Irish person living in America, Yucca: Mm. Michael: Cuz we, Irish people are victims of col colonialism,  Mark: Hmm.  Michael: Irish people, when they moved to America, they just became white as well and had the same colonial attitudes as everybody. And I'm trying to kind of, but you know, there's, there's, there's kind of stories of reciprocation as well. Where during the famine, the Irish famine the, I think, I believe it was the Chota Nation sent Emin relief to the AR to Ireland. Even though they didn't have much themselves, they still saw this. People in need across the water and they sent money to help. And, you know, there's that connection between the Chta nation and the Irish has continued to this day. But I am just trying to figure out what it means to be an Irish person and a pagan living in this country. And that's kind of where I, where I am right now. But to get back to how I got into Ethiopia, paganism I mentioned earlier that I was really into the Wickerman and I found this group called Folk folk Horror Revival on Facebook. And somebody one day mentioned that there was this group called Atheopagan. And so I decided to join and I found a lot of like-minded people. And I've been kind of involved in the community for, for, I think that was maybe 2018. Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: And I've been involved in the community since then and maybe on a bigger, I've been much more involved since Covid started and we started doing our Saturday mixers. And I think I've made maybe 90% of those Mark: something Michael: and we've, yeah, and we've been doing that for the last three years and it's just been. It's a really amazing, it's one of the highlights of my week to spend time with with other people in that, in that hour and 45 minutes that we spend every Saturday. Mark: Mm. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: Yeah, I, I really agree with you. That's, I, it's a highlight of my week as well. Such warm, thoughtful people and so diverse and living in so many different places. It's yeah, it's just a really good thing to do on a Saturday morning for me. And. We'll probably get into this more a little bit later, but the idea of creating human connection and community building I know is really important to you and it's really important to me too. I think there have been other sort of naturalistic, pagan traditions that have been created by people, but they just kind of plunked them on the internet and let them sit. And to me it's. That would be fine if I were just gonna do this by myself. But when other people started saying, I like this, I want to do this too. To me that meant, well then we should all do it together. Right? Let's, let's build a community and support one another in doing this. And so the Saturday mixers, when we, when Covid started, I think. I mean, to be honest, COVID did some great things for the Ethiopia, pagan community.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: yeah. Kind of accidentally, but that's, that's Yucca: Well that's the silver linings, right? That's one of the things we, you know, life goes on. We have to find the, the, the benefits and the good things, even in the challenging times. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.  Michael: yeah. I think. I'm just thinking back to when we started. So it's kind of, we have maybe six or seven regulars who come to every meeting maybe. And then we have other people who join now and then, but I'm just trying to think back to the first meeting. I think we, that's when the idea of doing virtual ritual began as well in that first meeting. And we were trying to figure out how to do.  Yucca: Was that was the first meeting before Covid or was it as a response to Covid? Mark: You know, honestly, I don't remember. I think it must have been in response to Covid because everybody was shut in and, you know, everybody was kind of starving for human contact. Michael: I think the first one may have been March or April. 2020, Yucca: Okay, so right there at the. Michael: Yeah, right at the beginning. Yeah. And I think, I remember in the first meeting we were talking about ritual ideas and I think the first suggestion I came up with was like I'd love to somebody do like a, describe what an atheopagan temple might look. Mark: Oh yeah. Michael: Yeah. And I left, and I think you were recording the meetings at that time, but we don't record 'em anymore, just so people can feel free to be themselves and not have a recorded recording of themselves out there, . But I know that, I think James who you interviewed recently he, he was listening to that one, I believe, and he came the next week and actually had prepared a guided meditation. Of what a pagan temple would be like to him. And it was a walk through nature. I think that was the first, our first online ritual together. Mark: Yeah, I remember that now. Yeah, and it's been, it's really been a journey trying to figure out how, how can you do these ritual things over a, a video conferencing platform. In a way that makes everybody feel like they're participating and engaged. Right. So that there's a, a transformation of consciousness. But I think we've done pretty well, to be honest. I mean, some of the rituals that we've done have been really quite moving. Michael: Yeah. And I think the ritual framework that you've worked at translates very well to. A Zoom conference as well. I dunno if maybe, if he wants to describe that, what the usual atheopagan ritual would look like. Mark: Sure. We've, we've talked about this before. The, the, the ritual structure that I proposed in my book is basically a, a five step process where the first is arrival, which is sort of, Transitioning into the ritual state of mind from the ordinary state of mind, and then the invocation of qualities that are a part that we'd like to be a part of the ritual with us, which is sort of the equivalent in Wicca or other pagan traditions of invoking spirits or gods or what have you, ancestors, what have you. And then the main working of the ritual, which varies depending on what the purpose of the ritual is. But it can be, well, we've done lots of different kinds of things. We've braided ribbons and then tied, not tied magical knots in them. We've made siles, we've we've done just lots of different kinds of things. And then gratitude expressions of gratitude. The things that we're grateful for. And then finally, benediction, which is sort of the closing of the ritual at a declaration that we're moving back into ordinary time. Yucca: So how does that look in, in a meeting, like a Zoom meeting In a digital format? Mark: Michael, you want to take that one or should I? Michael: So you know, you have maybe, I think usually when we have a ritual more people attend that and so we might have 12 people there and often  Yucca: cameras on. Michael: Camera's on. Well, it's optional. Yeah. If you don't feel comfortable having your camera on, that's completely fine and you don't even have to speak. We do encourage people just to you know, leave a message in the chat so you can just listen in. You can engage as much or as little as you want. And you, you, so. We have all the people on in the conference, and maybe we'll try and get some more of the senses involved as well. So sometimes we'll like candles and everybody will have a candle in front of them. I do know for for some of our sound rituals. Mark, you've used two cameras where you, you aim one camera at maybe a focus, like what's one of the examples of that that you. Mark: Well we did that both at Sown and at Yu. So both the Halls ritual and the Yule ritual where I would create a focus or alter setup with thematic and symbolic things relating to the season. and then I would point, I would log into Zoom with my phone and point my phone at that. And then, and then I'd log in separately on my laptop for myself as a person, and then I could spotlight the focus so that it's kind of the centerpiece of what everybody experiences on their screen and sets the atmosphere. Michael: Yeah. So just a virtual focus that everybody can, everybody can virtually gather around. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah. And I think we've also used a Pinterest board in the past as well for people. I think it was at Sound again, we had that Pinterest board where people could put up notes about. Their ancestors or loved ones that they were That's correct, isn't it? Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Or pictures of people that had passed recently or. Yucca: mm. Michael: yeah. So yeah, there's a lot of digital space that you can use for this ritual. We also try not to involve too many props as well. Because we wanna make it as easy as possible for people of all abilities. And just if you don't have the space for something, for a large proper if you don't wanna make a lot of noise, you know, we're not gonna have you using chimes or things like that. So we try and make it as easy as possible. Sometimes we do invite you to bring some food to eat as well, because, you know, a lot of these are feasting rituals. So we maybe, if you feel comfortable bringing some refreshments, you might want to do. And just have a friendly meal with people online. For example, we're actually gonna start doing I'm gonna be leading full Moon meals every month on the, on the, so the first one's gonna be December 7th. And I'll post, post about that on Discord, and I think Mark will post about that in the Facebook group. Yeah. And so the idea is everybody just comes. Joins the Zoom meeting and everybody should have their meal. Whether you're, whether that's lunch or if you're in a different time zone, maybe there'll be dinner or maybe it's just a snack. And then we'll spend a minute just thinking about the providence of the food and then we'll eat us and maybe people can talk about the food that they're eating and what it means to. And I'm hoping to make that a monthly event that we meet every full moon to share a meal together Mark: That sounds. I, I, I really I have pagan guilt over how little I pay attention to the full moon. I'm, I'm always, I'm always aware of what phase the moon is in, but I, I don't do a lot in the way of observances of the phases of the moon. And so, I'm excited to have this added in to something that I can attend. Michael: Mm-hmm. . But yeah, as you can see from that format, it's very simple. And again, you, if, if people listening would like to attend as well, there's no obligation to keep your. Your camera on, there's no obligation to speak. You just, you can just listen in and just feel part of the, part of the community that way. Yucca: Mm-hmm. So in the mixers sometimes ritual, are there discussions or what else do the mixers. Michael: Usually the mixer is kind of a freeform thing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Maybe we'll have a topic sometimes, but usually people just come and do a check in and talk about how they're, how they're getting on that week and if there's anything they wanna discuss, we just open it up to that. Depending on the size of the turn, we may require some kind of etiquette stuff. So if there are a lot of people and we don't want people to. Shut it down or have spoken over. So we'll ask people to raise their hands if they wanna speak. That's, that really is only when there's a lot of people and, and often I, I know I'm somebody who likes to talk, so it's a, I think raising hands also gives people who are less confident, or, I'm sorry, not less confident, just not at, don't feel like interrupting. It gives them an opportu. To to have their say as well and be called on mm-hmm. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Mm. Mark: I think it's really good that we've implemented that. It, it's, it helps. Michael: Mm-hmm. I think one of the really cool rituals we had recently was for like the ATO Harvest, so that was when was that? That was in September or October. In September, yeah. Yeah. So. We were trying, I mean, usually it's, you could do some kind of harvest related and I think we've done that in the past. But I have a book called Celebrating Irish Festivals by Ruth Marshall. And this is my go-to book for, for, for ritual ideas. And this is, and I like to. Kind of some of the traditional holidays and maybe just steal from them. . So Michael Mass is is the holiday around that time in Ireland? It's a Christian holiday, but it's also it's a  Yucca: were older. Michael: yeah, yeah, Yucca: Christians took for the older Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, it's about St. And he's known for slaying a dragon as just as St. George was known for slaying a dragon. But I thought, well, let's turn this on this head and let's celebrate our inner dragons. Let's bring our dragons to life. So it was the whole ritual was about dragons. And we actually drew Dragons, drew our inner dragons and shared them. Talked about what they. And kind of we were feeding our inner dragon so that they could warm us throughout the coming winter. Yucca: Hmm. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: as well as watching the home. Star Runner Strong Door, the Ator video, Michael: Oh yeah, Mark: which you, you have to do if you've got dragons as a theme. It's just too funny to avoid. Michael: That's an old flash cartoon from the early two thousands. That was pretty popular. Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah. Track toward the ator. Google it, and in fact, I did a, I did the hot chip challenge as part of that ritual as  Mark: That's right. Yeah.  Michael: where I ate a very, very hot tortilla chip on camera. And. It was it was painful, but I'm sure, I don't know if it entertained other people, but it was, it was fun Mark: Oh yeah. It was fun. Michael: So, yeah, they're like, I mean, these rituals aren't all, they're, they're fun and they're kind of silly and goofy and but I mean, I thought at the same time they're very meaningful because people really opened up in that one  Mark: Yeah.  Michael: and shared some really profe profound truth. That was one of my favorites actually, and I hope we do another, another dragon invoking ritual in the future. Mark: Maybe in the spring Michael: yeah. Mark: you do it at, at both of the equinoxes. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: so you've joined the Atheopagan Society Council, which is great. Thank you so much for your, your volunteering and your effort. What do you think about the future? How do you, how do you see where this community is going and what would you like to see? What's, what's your perspective on that? Michael: Yeah, so just before I discovered the Pagan Facebook group I had attended A local cups meeting. So that's the covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans. And so it was just a taro reading workshop and, you know, I was, I, I like kind of using these kind of rituals just for their beauty and, but not, for not, not seeing anything supernatural in them. I was, it was amazing to, to find a group that was interested in these kind of things too, but without the they weren't incredulous. So I guess what I'm hoping for is that as we, as we kind of find more people who are, are, are aligned with us, maybe we can have more in. Experiences. That was one of the great, the great highlights of, of last year was attending the Century retreat and meeting all, all these amazing people in real life and being able to spend time together in real life. And I hope that as we kind of, as the word gets out about this group, more and more of us can meet in person or as we are able to, Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: That's what I really hope for the future that you're finding your, your people that we are, we are being able to get these local groups together and then spend time on these important days of the year. And I believe the Chicago Afu Pagan group was able to do that not too long ago. And I know Mark, your local group meets quite regularly as well. Mark: We, we meet for the, for the eight holidays, for the eight Sabbath. So yeah, we're gonna get together on the 18th of December and burn a fire in the fire pit and do a, a ritual and enjoy food and drink with one another. And yeah, it's a, it's a really good feeling that that feeling of getting together is just You can't replace it with online connection, but online connection is still really good. So that's why, that's why we continue to do the mixers every Saturday. And Glen Gordon has also been organizing a mixer on Thursday evenings. Well evenings if you're in the Americas. And. Yeah, there's just, there's, there's a bunch of different opportunities to plug in and it's always great to see somebody new. Michael: Yeah, I think that would be another hope as well that, you know, if you've been on the fence about coming to a mixer I hope that what we've described today maybe entices you to come along. You know that there's no expectations and you can, you can share, you can just sit in the background and watch, or you can participate. There's no expectations and it's just a nice way to, to connect with people, so, Yucca: how would somebody join in? They find the, the link on the Facebook discord. Michael: that's right. Yeah. So I think, mark, you post it regularly on the Facebook group, and it's also posted on the disc. As well. So, and it's the same time every Saturday, so it's 12:15 PM Central for me, so, and that's like 1115 for you, mark, on the, Mark: No, it's 1115 for Yucca. Michael: Oh, okay. Mark: It's 10 15 for me. Michael: Okay. Okay. Yucca: one 15 for Eastern. Then  Michael: one, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yucca: Hmm Mark: And. Michael: and it's always the same time, and I think we've, I think we've only missed one week, maybe in the last three years. Mark: Yeah, I think that's right. I wasn't available and I couldn't find somebody else to host or something like that, but yeah, it's been very consistent. And I see no reason to think it isn't gonna keep being consistent. But yeah, we, you know, we welcome new people. And if you're not in the Americas, that's fine too. We've got a couple of Dutch people that come in all the time. There's a, an Austrian woman who lives in Helsinki who participates. So Yucca: E eight nine ish kind of for Europe, Mark: Yeah.  Michael: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We've even had on the Thursday night mixer, we've even had Australians join occasionally too. So Yucca: That sounds like that'd be early for them then, right?  Michael: yeah,  Yucca: getting up in the. Michael: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But I'd I'd love for some of the listeners to come and join us on one of the mixers and then cuz you know, you bring new ideas. And I we're always looking for new ritual ideas, Mark: Mm. Michael: That kind of bring meaning to our lives and to everybody else's. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah, cuz that's, I mean, that's what we're doing, right? We're, we're create, we're, it's a creative process for us. We've got these sort of frameworks like the Wheel of the Year and the, the ritual format that I laid out. Although people can use other ritual formats too. That's fine. But it's, it's an ongoing process of creation and of taking some old traditions and folding them in where they fit but creating new stuff as well. One of the innovations that we, that we've been doing for the l past year or so is if people want to be done with something, if they want to be finished with something in their. They can write it in the chat and then I take the chat file and I print it on my printer and I take it and I burn it in my cauldron. So it is actually being burnt physically. But it just takes a little bit of technical processing before that happens. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: And it's those kinds of innovations that are really useful for online rituals. And boy, if you have new ideas about things we can do for online rituals, I, I would love to hear 'em. Yucca: So thank you so much for sharing your story and your visions or the future with us. This has been, it's, it's really been beautiful to hear and to get that insight. Thank you, Michael. Michael: Well, thank you for having me on. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's been delightful hearing from you and, and I, I gotta say, I, I feel like our community is very lucky. You've been exploring religion and and folklore and ritual for a long time in a lot of different frameworks and I feel really fortunate that you've landed with us cuz I like you so. Michael: Okay. Well thanks very much. I like you too, Mark: Okay folks, that'll be all for this week. And as always, we'll have another episode for you next week on the Wonder Science Based Paganism. Have a great week. Yucca: Thanks everybody.  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E34 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca, Mark: And I'm the other one. Mark. Yucca: and today we are talking about Cauldrons. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: yes, and welcome to October. We're here all in. The wonderful aut month, the our kind of spooky hollows is coming and here we are. So we're gonna have some great episodes this, this month. Mark: Yeah, I'm really excited about it. We've got a lot of cool stuff to talk about for the witchy month and can't wait to get started. Yucca: Yeah. So speaking of witchy, there's probably three symbols which are most associated with witch broomstick, pointy hat and cauldron. Mark: Right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: No one will make any mistake about what you are trying to represent. If you've got those three things with you Yucca: Yep. And oh please. Mark: Well, I was gonna say, we don't have enough to say about a pointy hat to turn it into an episode, but there's plenty to talk about with a caldron. Yucca: there is, Yes. So I think a good place to start would probably be, you know, the history. What is a coldron, what's the history and why? Why it really matters, why we're interested in this symbol. Mark: Mm-hmm. well. From my standpoint, I, I think you, you really identified the main reason why we're interested in it. I mean, for those of us that gravitate towards Paganism and it's aesthetic and it's iconography in our ritual practice, those. Those standard symbols, like the cauldron become very potent. They become very influential when, when you're, when you're brewing something over a cauldron, there is very much this sense that you're doing magic, right. Yucca: Yeah. Well, and I, and I think that the association with the witch, a witch is a powerful figure. Right. And they're, they can be represented in different ways in terms of the morality of them in stories, right? Depending on who's telling the story, whether they're, you know, the good guy or the bad guy. But they're always powerful, right? They're always, they have agency. But that agency also usually is coming from them and the home. And the cauldron has this association with the home because it's a tool of the. , whether that's an outdoor kitchen around the fire or whether that was your kitchen in the home at the Hearth. Mark: Right. Yeah. I mean, Among the very earliest implementations of of any kind of cooking equipment that we're familiar with are ceramic pots that were used for cooking. Things in hot stones would be put inside a ceramic pot. And then Cereals or meat or and water or whatever. It could be stirred in that and it would boil which would sterilize it of course, but would also break down proteins in the food to make it easier to digest. And we have evidence of that going back thousands and thousands of years. Yucca: Right. Well, because there's a lot of foods that, There's a lot of plants that you might be digging up that you can't eat. Mark: right. Yucca: Right. It's not gonna, you have to cook them. And so if we were gonna be doing that, then we needed to cook them. Mark: Right, and we've had. Thousands of generations to do the experimentation to figure those things out. I mean, people talk about, you know, indigenous knowledge and indigenous healing. Well, think about all the trial and error that went into figuring that stuff out. It's like, all right, who's gonna eat the mushroom? All right, Bob's gonna eat. Oh, Bob's gone.  Yucca: Okay. Let's remember that measure. Mark: Right, But how did they ever get to the point of feeding the mushroom to reindeer and then gathering their urine? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, it's just Yucca: Well, I, We Mark: scale of Yucca: time, Yeah. The time we've been around. On the one hand, if you compare us to, Crocodiles, we've barely been around. Right. But compared to an individual human or an individual culture's memory, the, it's so, so long. Mark: Right. Yeah. 200,000 years since we really started developing culture Yucca: Or well human, at least our gen, our genius is older and you could quite, there's a lot of argument to be made that that other humans, not just homo sapiens had. Quite a bit of culture as well, Mark: Well, sure. They had the domestication of fire, which in many cases there are a lot of strong arguments to be made that the domestication of fire was. Kind of the, the launching pad for human culture. In many ways it also coincided with a rapid evolution of our brains because we were getting a lot more food value out of our food once we started cooking it. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: This is a tangent, but Yucca: Well, but we can relate it back though, because Fire and Cauldrons is that right? So we, This was planned, This was planned tangent. We can say Mark: So, yeah, the, the hearth, the, the home fire and the cooking pot sitting over it are very, very ancient symbols of of power of transformation. You know, you put those ingredients in and they, they, they come out different. They come out edible food, they come. Tasting different Yucca: smelling good. Mark: smelling good. There's, there's just all kinds of wonderful things that happen in the, the alchemy of that, that caldron. So historically, and, you know, we know that this has been a symbol for a very long time because it was already a trope when Shakespeare was writing about it. Right. You know, with, with the three witches and the double, double toil and trouble and all that. So now we inherit it today and it's become sort of a stereotype, but at the same time, a caldron is a really useful ritual implement, and we're gonna talk about ways that it, that it is useful for us. Yucca: Right, and we should say, The image that usually comes to mind when you think of a cauldron that rounded three-legged black, you know, big Iron Pot. That's one version of a Coran, right? This is, that's, we're looking at, that's coming from recent European history, but Qurans are much older and there's, you know, they're always kind of a pot shape, but we don't always see them as that round. Belly kind of shape. Sometimes we see other shapes involved. We're talking about that because that's what we associate with the witches and a lot of the kind of witch aesthetic is coming from a European aesthetic, but remembering that cultures all over the world had versions of this. Mark: Yes. Yes. And we should talk about some some variations that exist for the kinds of formats that people might. Experience as a part of you know, selecting a cauldron for themselves. We're in no way saying you need to go out and spend a couple hundred dollars on, on, you know, a pot beed, three-legged iron cauldron. They're out there, they're really cool, but Yucca: if you're into that, we're not gonna judge you on that, but yeah, you certainly don't need to. Mark: Yeah. And if we, and if we do a ritual with you and there it is, we'll go, Hey, wow. Cool. Caldron, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But my caldron actually is not one of those, It is a Dutch oven that probably dates from the turn of the 20th century. It's got a lot of rust on it that I've never cleaned off because it's. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And it has a wire bale that I can pick up and a lid. And I've used it in lots of caldron rituals and it's, it still, it still communicates that sense of antiquity. There's something that's lovely about having a lid for it because it's sort of mysterious. You know, you put the lid on and then some, something magical happens inside it. You take the lid off and things have changed. Yucca: I think that's really interesting because I, mine are also Dutch ovens. So mine are very used dutch ovens because I have a wood stove in the home and, and yeah, I have a little propane burner as well for cooking on, but as long as we've got, cuz we do heat with wood in the winter, as long as we've got that going. I love having things up on top of it and you can also stick it into the ashes of the fire. So we've got several different sizes and kind of different shapes there for them. And there's just something about that cast iron, right? Ours are probably are new Dutch ovens. They're probably made within the last few years, but they feel like something that could be around for a very long. Mark: Right, Yucca: They, you know, they could be passed on. My grandkids or great-grandkids could literally be using these. Yeah. Mark: that is the great thing about cast iron is that. It simply doesn't wear out. We use cast iron frying pans in my house and some of them come from thrift chops where they looked hideous. I mean, they're covered with rust and conclusions and just in the worst possible shape. But you get going on, taking all that stuff off, and then Yucca: take that top layer. Yeah. Mark: And it is a perfectly good frying pan once again, and it will be for decades, if not centuries, as long as you keep it from being eaten up by oxidation. Yucca: Yeah. That's what we use all of our, our pans in the kitchen, our, our cast iron, we've got. A couple of stainless steel for boiling, like a pot or kettle stainless steel. But that's, you know, they're just beautiful. And, and some people get very snobby about the exact correct way to treat them and wash them. And, but I think that they're just super forgiving and if you mess up, then you just it, right? You just re season it again. It's great. And enjoy the things you're eating that you're seasoning it with, you know. Mark: Right. And there are some things that you make that will take the seasoning off. Like if you cook a tomato pasta sauce, for example, the, the acids in that may very well take some of the seasoning off the pan. So you put a little oil on, stick it in the oven, heat it up for a while, and you've gotta see some pan. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, and, and ode to to cast iron. We're big fans. Yucca: Right. Well, and so going back though to the cauldron, so we were saying that we use our, our cast iron Dutch ovens but there's a lot of Dutch ovens that are not iron. Right. And there's other things that, that would, that serve the same function that we use today. As a coulter would traditionally, So your big crock pots, right? Or your stockpot, right. We've got like this several gallon stockpot that, you know, is what I used to heat up the bath water with. And it's just, it's, it, it has that same vibe, right? And it, it's modern. It was made within the last 20 years probably, but it still does that same function and looks beautiful at the same. Mark: Mm-hmm. One of the things that is great about using a Dutch oven actually be is because they do have a lid. And what that means is that you have a little bit more control over temperature. Gradients. For example, if you've got a Dutch oven that is sitting on the fire or in the coals, the bottom of that is gonna get really hot. But the lid, you could put herbs on that to create a fragrance in your home. Or a little drop of essential oil to do the same thing. There are, if you just want to warm things, I mean, I know you can, you can warm bread and stuff like that on the, on the top of, of a dutch oven as well. So it's a very versatile tool for for a variety of uses. Yucca: and you can also put a fire right into it. Right? You could have your candle or something in that, and then. When you put your lid on afterwards, you can feel pretty secure that you're not, that you're not creating a fire hazard with that. Mark: Right, Yucca: So now it will, your lid will heat up too. So you need to be, be aware of that if you're, you are using it on the stove and, you know, not, not touch that with your bare hands, but it just, it, you could just use it in so many different ways. Mark: right. Right. And there is something about just the sight of that Dutch oven or caldron heating in a fireplace or over a stove that kind of says home and comfort and warmth and and magic, you know, the magic of the kitchen. We were talking before we were recording and I was mentioning that, you know, one of the things about about older times is that, you know, you, your, your medicines didn't come from a factory. They came from your kitchen, you know, and the caldron was a, a key. Tool for creating them. You know, you'd, you'd gather the proper herbs, you'd mash them up in a mortar and pestle, which is another classic alchemical sort of witchy, magical set of tools, and then you would brew them. Yucca: today too, Mark: Oh yeah, yeah. We, we use ours all the time. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And then, you know, brew them or toast them or, you know, whatever it is in that hot pot. So it's, It's not an accident that a, that domestic tools like the broom and the cauldron are associated with the power of the witch because that kind of ritual magic, if you will, was really the purview of the home. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That's where it happened. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Very different than, Oh, go ahead. Yucca: I was gonna say, I still think that, I think that's still where a lot of it does, but in our very busy lives, we kind of forget about that sometimes. We're off running around, but when we come back, back home, back to center, then we go, Oh, I actually do have a lot of power from this place. Mark: Mm-hmm. . Yes. So, We've established that this is something that has been a symbol for a very long time, and it's been a, a useful tool for humans even going back into very, very ancient times. I'm sure we were heating things on hot stones long before we, you know, invented pottery or any of that kind of stuff. Yucca: Right. But as long as we've been in the neolithic. We've had something of the sort, right? Every, everybody who's doing that, who's doing the, the whole staying in one place thing, and even nomadic peoples as well could have things that they were, you know, packing up and bringing with them. Yeah. Mark: right. And we've established that cast iron is good. Yucca: yes. Yay for cast iron. Mark: Big fans of cast iron. Why don't we talk a little bit about the kinds of ritual things that you can do with a caldron Yucca: Hmm. Okay. Well I think we could start with the incorporating what you would be doing with it to begin with, just on a mundane level and adding some ritual and meaning into that. So in this case it, it might be your Dutch oven, but it also might be your stockpot on the stove. Right. What are you doing and why are you doing that? Right? So can you add something, Can you have a, a moment when you add in that salt or whatever it is that you're adding in, that you, that you take a moment and have just set an intention with that, right? Mark: Yeah, the adding of seasoning and spices I think is a great opportunity for metaphorically adding magic into whatever it is that you're cooking. Spices are. Spices are kind of magical substances when you think about it. I mean, they are the unique pesticides that various plants have evolved in order to defend themselves from insects mostly. And in some cases from fungal infections and stuff like that. Yucca: and small mammals and Mark: Sure, yeah. If they, Yucca: And us too. It's just, we're so big , right? They're, they're technically poisons, right? They're toxins that they produce because they don't wanna be eaten every, everybody wants to survive and reproduce and they can't get up and run, run away the way an animal can or bite you, but they can make themselves poisonous. Mark: Yes. And they can make themselves taste bad, but Yucca: But we ended up liking Mark: amounts, yes. In small amounts. You're, you're a regno and your terragon and your sage and your onions, and. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: All those wonderful things. Garlic, I mean, they, they give us wonderful, good feelings and very complex flavors that give us a lot of pleasure. So when casting those things into a cooking pot, we can be setting intentions, we can be stirring them in as meaning, you know,  Yucca: It would be lovely if you made your own labels and added them to the spice jars. Maybe not covering up what they are. If you need to know which is, which is your cayenne and which is your cinnamon, you wanna know the difference, right? But if you put your label on that, you know, Oh, well this one is love, right? And this one is creativity. You know, when you're putting in your love and creativity and all of those things that you see that every time. Reach for that spice jar. Mark: I love that idea. That's a great idea. And it would be a really fun project actually, to do with kids to create the labels. Yucca: Yeah. And you could do, You could put them on in ritual too. Mark: Right? Right. Yucca: And even, No even grown up kids. Right. Mark: Oh yeah. I. Yucca: kids of whatever ages. Mark: I would want to be a part of it for sure. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we can do caldron magic in the course of just using the caldron for the purpose, for an ordinary cooking purpose. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: We can also dispense with anything in the cauldron except fire. We can, we can burn. We can burn fire, burn wood, or you know, whatever it is that don't burn anything toxic because then you're not gonna want to use it for cooking ever again. Yucca: and you wanna be able to be around. You don't wanna breathe and smoke in general, but you wanna be really careful about what it is that you're burning. So you don't wanna be burning like synthetic fabrics or something like that, that really could be very toxic to you. If you get a little wolf of whiff of wood smoke, it's not great, but you know, it's, it's not gonna be quite as much of an issue as burning plastics. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. So, a flaming caldron is something that we, I've used many times in rituals and you can, you can feed stuff that you want to destroy or dispense with in the form of. Little pieces of wood that you've invested your intention on or written the message on what you mean. You can do that with slips of paper. You can do that with Little symbols that are flammable of, of some kind. So that's sort of the destructive approach to a flaming cauldron. But you can also do it with wishes. You can inscribe something hope hoped for, that you want to, The smoke will go up into the sky and inform whatever powers are up there and, and they'll put in an order for you. Yucca: Or thinking of it as this is fuel, right? This is, this is the fuel for the fire. That, that whatever it is burning inside of you, right? What is it that you want to feed into your fire to, for you to continue to grow and do all of these, you know, passionate, wonderful things, whatever it is that you are focused on. Mark: Right, And in the case of a ritual like that, I really encourage people to use low tech methods of actually lighting the fire. So that it, it takes a little effort, right? You know, whether that's a flint and steel or I, I don't recommend lighting a fire with a bow because it's an incredible amount of work. And it, you can have disappointing results while you're trying to light your inspiration. Fire. Yucca: Yeah. Well if, if you do, you might wanna practice that ahead of time and be, and get really good at it. Right. Just knowing that it is a skill that takes a lot of work. Mark: Yes. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But there is, there is something to be said to something more than just flicking a lighter and . Suddenly there is flame. Yucca: Yeah. Well, and it, and you know, if you don't have access to one of those matches, right? There's something more, I, I find there's something very satisfying about striking the match as opposed to just the lighter. Although there are some really cool lighters. We were given one of those arc lighters. Mark: I have one I use it for, for my alter, my focus all the time. Yucca: Yeah, I feel so sci-fi, whenever I use Mark: Yeah. Yucca: like, yeah. It's just really nice and it's USB chargeable, so we just like plug it in and don't have to, I've got lots of lighters and matches all over the place because I don't wanna ever. Want to be lighting a fire and be shivering and being like, Where are my matches? Where are my lighters? But those are fun, but you know, there's matches. And there's also, I don't know what they're actually called, but you know, the ones we'd use in lab class for bunsen burners? The, Mark: Oh, those little pizza, electric things that, Yucca: Yeah, there's silver and you Mark: spark. Yucca: Yeah. Those are, you know, when you have a more. Just an out of the ordinary or kind of fun way of starting the fire. There's a little something extra to it. Mark: Right, right. There are these striker, they're, they're sort of like flint and steel. They're these sort of striker sticks that you scrape sparks off of onto like cotton or something, which will light on fire. And those are pretty neat for starting a fire too. I don't know what they're called exactly either, but they're you can get them in camping stores. Yucca: Okay. Mark: add to a survival Yucca: Oh, I think I've seen them and they, You can like put them on a key chain or something like that. Yeah, Yeah. Now you gotta be patient with anything like that that doesn't have a sustained flame because you're trying to catch that. Spark, Mark: Yeah. Yucca: like if you have like a little cotton swab from the bathroom, like those are really good and you maybe half of it, you dip into olive oil and the other half you leave open so that then it starts to burn the oil. And there's a lot of, that's another thing that you could do fire related is little fat lamps, little fat, an oil lamps. Those are really fun. Mark: Right. Yucca: This year the kids and I So they're, they're softa. So my stepmother lives up on our, where we do as well and is really into finding the, the clay here and fire making things and firing it. So they made little oil lamps. Yeah, so they made little oil lamps and we've been using lard in them and they worked remarkably well and doesn't smell like a fast food restaurant. I was very happy for that. Mark: That's amazing. Yeah, we've used NAEA uses Tao quite a bit in cooking and Yucca: how, Mark: Yeah, so we've, we've, I've used that sometimes as sort of an accelerant for a fire to get started, but, okay, so that's the fire inside the cauldron. That's one whole set of things you can do. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Then there's the adding ingredients into the cauldron kind of. The, the classic example of that is stone soup, where everybody brings an ingredient and you start with water or stock. Could be vegetable stock, could be chicken, Yucca: Mm-hmm. , b flam, whatever you have Mark: Whatever you Yucca: and whatever matches your, your dietary approaches. Yeah. Mark: Right. And then people add ingredients and the whole thing becomes soup. Which. Is a lot more satisfying than it sounds. There is, there is really something wonderful about the kind of ceremonial, adding by a whole lot of different people of what they in particular have brought to add to a given dish. And then it's all put together, it's cooked, and then it's distributed out to everyone to enjoy. There's something very poetic about that, that process. Yucca: Yeah. Hmm. Mark: And then you can also do sort of magical potions, which aren't meant to be ingested, Yucca: Right. Mark: With whatever ingredients you feel are necessary. Now, bear in mind, cast iron is a little bit porous, Yucca: Yeah. So if you're gonna eat from it again, you don't wanna be putting non edible things in there, Mark: right? Right. You know, no Mercury Yucca: Yeah. Or I, I don't know why this one's coming to mind, but shampoo. Right, because shampoo, like there's really good smelling shampoos that'll bubble up really nicely. Like you could do some really kind of fun smelling and looking things with, with soap shampoos and soaps and stuff like that. But you don't want, you don't want that in your mouth. Mark: No. Yucca: And that's gonna spoil whatever you try and cook in there next. Right? If you get it out cuz you, you're not feeling well and you need that good soup, you know, And then, Oh, shampoo soup. Mark: it's, this is Lemon Sented shampoo. Oh, dear. Yucca: Yeah. But if it's one that you are using only for ritual and decorative purposes, that's very different. Mark: Right? Yucca: Right. Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: I suppose you could put line it with foil or something like that, but it's kind of taken a risk. Mark: You know, if you really want a sort of bubbly, frosty effect I would just go for the dry ice, you know, put a little little layer of water in the bottom of the cauldron set in a block of dry ice. You'll get abundant fog pouring out of it. It'll look really cool. If you want to change the color, you can break a light stick and drop it in there. So that you've got like a green fog coming out or, Yucca: but that you cannot use for food again. Mark: Oh, I. Yucca: a light stick. Mark: I didn't mean to Yucca: Oh, good. Okay. You mean snap it so it activates? Mark: it so it activates Yeah. And drop it in there. Yucca: Well, and with the dry ice, there's nothing to clean up afterwards, which is really nice. Right. If when it come, it billows out, you know, might get things, you know, little damp, but not, you know, you're not gonna have to be mopping anything or cleaning anything up. Mark: right. Be sure you've got good ventilation. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Dry ice is co2. CO2 is poisonous. That's why we breathe it out because we don't use it. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you just wanna make sure that you've got good ventilation in the room so that you don't get overcome by CO2 and pass out. Yucca: Right, Because if we, I mean, we breathe CO2 in and breathe it back out, but the problem is it's not oxygen. It isn't the same as carbon monoxide, which is really problematic for us because our bodies confuses that with oxygen and then it basically makes us suffocate. But co2, Yeah. That sort of thing you might wanna be doing either outside or with making sure you have the windows open, but yeah. And also when you're doing, going back to the fire, one being mindful about what size is your flame going to be, Right. If you're lighting a little candle inside of your little cauldron, The kitchen, you're probably fine, but if you're pouring something in Mark, you have a, Don't you have a story about a Mark: Oh yes, Yucca: flame that came out Mark: the flame vortex. Yucca: Yeah. That you wanna be outside for, with, you know, appropriate fire or safety equipment. Yeah. Go. So what happens with your Mark: Well, what What happened was we did a ritual where we burned some intentions for the coming year, and the caldron was sitting on top of. Coals and there was still some flame there. So the bottom of the, the cauldron was very warm. And what we did was afterwards we poured in two bottles simultaneously, two bottles of cheap red wine. And it was hot enough that the wine boiled on contact with the bottom of the pan, which we assumed was going to happen for the first little bit that we poured in. And then, Yucca: you gonna make mold wine or something? Is the Okay? Mark: Yes. And, and mold wide, which included the ashes of the Yucca: beautiful. Mm-hmm. Mark: had, you know, been. Been burning there, and then we could all have a sip. Well, what ended up happening was that the entire pot boiled, it boiled off the alcohol and the alcohol lit on fire, and created this sort of fire tornado that extended up maybe three feet above the, the lid of the, or the edge of the cauldron. And it did that for about 20 seconds. So what we ended up drinking had no alcohol in it for one thing, and it wasn't particularly tasty because it had been boiled also. But it's a pretty cool effect if you, if you wanna do that again, it just don't do it indoors. Yucca: Do it outdoors to have all of your, you know, your fire extinguisher or whatever you need Yeah. To put it out. Right. And maybe not, you know. Not near a bunch of, you know, brush and all of that. Mark: Yeah. Or overhanging branches, which is the thing that people often forget because the picture in their mind is of a fire that is, you know, a nice contained fire that only leaps up about a foot above whatever the container is. But sometimes fires get a mind of their own and they, they get bigger than that and then they can start to. The, the tree branches that are over the top. So you need to be, you need to be careful with fire, Yucca: Yeah. And you know, whatever the safety is in your area, check, check with your county regulations. Is there a fire ban on at the moment and all of that because you don't wanna burn your, your neighborhood down. So yeah, Mark: Yeah. Yucca: of those, those interesting. We have this lovely, beautiful relationship with it spanning back literally millions of years, but it's also extremely destructive. Mark: It's very dangerous. The fact that we were able to domesticate this incredibly dangerous chemical process is really a testament to courage in our, in our ancestry, honestly, because when we first got it, it was probably burning trees that have been struck by lightning Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and you know, I would think you probably wouldn't wanna go near a tree that had been struck by lightning in case it got struck again. Right. Yucca: Yeah, and it's still, you know, can still be hot. The, the kids and I are reading some Greek mythology right now and we actually just were reading about Prometheus and my oldest asked, Well, mom, why was Sue so mad about fire? What's the big deal about giving humans fire? When we had to go through all the things that fire can do, how powerful Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: it made people, they went, Oh, okay. Still doesn't seem like a fair consequence. Mark: Well, yeah, e Eternal torment never seems like a fair consequence. . So, yeah. Yucca: they were very sympathetic to poor Prometheus, so yeah. Mark: So, the last kind of ritual that I can think of is the kind of potion making where. Where you're, you're mixing something up, which you're then going to pour off into jars or into, you know, like if you're making spell jars for example, and there's particular ingredients that you want in all of them. So you mix up sort of a, a formula of what all those different elements are, and then you can pour them off into jars and maybe add material items before closing them and sealing them. Yucca: What would be an example of a type of, of ritual that you would do with one of these s. Mark: I haven't done a whole lot of spell jar rituals myself, but I know of people that have done like spell jar protection symbols for their, for their land, Yucca: So they would bury it in the four corners or. Mark: Right. Yeah. Bury those, you know, at the boundaries in order to, well, realistically speaking in order to help them feel more protected.  Yucca: Well, that's the point of the ritual, right? Mark: that's the point of the ritual. Exactly. I mean, many of the magical rituals that have been implemented over human history have been to try to get control over stuff that we don't have control. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: It just helps us feel better and that's fine. There's, there's nothing wrong with that. There's, it's absolutely a great thing to do. So, for example, if you had You know, water from a particular well and maybe some river water and some ocean water and some wine and some, I don't know. I'm trying to think of, you know, a few drops of blood. Whatever you wanted to put in there. You could stir all that up together. Add in whatever other. Miscellaneous ingredients felt like the right thing to do and then could decant out of the caldron. But you, you get to do that big stirring motion on the caldron, right? That, that wonderful double, double toil and trouble kind of thing. And so you can chant over it, you can sing over it, you can you can do that solo or you can do that with a group. Everybody can get a turn to do the stirring. I've seen that before. And then you pour off into the jars and put in items. I, I know that historically spell jars have been found that are full of nails, Yucca: Okay. Mark: that are sort of meant to protect against stuff, right? Put these sharp objects in to protect people from from what they don't want to contend with. Yucca: Well, brainstorming as, as you were talking about that everybody putting something in. Maybe one thing you could do is if you're with a group or you could do it on your own, having a, a jar that you're preparing for later when you're having a hard time, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: the, oh, you know, here's the, all the, the friendship and joy and, and sense of connection and, you know, there's gonna be a day when I'm feeling alone and I need to, to open that up. To remember that, you know, I have this connection and this appreciation for the community or, or a day where, where you put patients into the jar. So when you're all out of patience, you can, you have a jar, patience stored on that back shelf that you can open up, right? Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Things like that. Mark: Yeah. You could pour what's in there as a libation for a, a plant or just onto the earth as a way of releasing its power. And then you have a jar that you can refill again and do another spell with, I have patients in knots. Yucca: Ah Mark: so when I really need it, I can untie one of the knots on my patient's string and let some patients out. Yucca: hm. Mark: It at least gives me something to do other than reacting angrily in the, in the immediate term, cuz the knots are pretty tight, so it takes a while to get 'em undone. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . And do you have a time when you go back through and retie everything Mark: I haven't had to do that yet. I think I've got four or five knots left on my, on my patient's string. But yeah, we did that in the, in a ritual of the Saturday morning mixer, Atheopagan mixer that we do on Zoom. So. I found it useful. I've actually used it twice but I'm sure there will come a time when it's empty and I've gotta refill it. Yucca: Yeah. Hmm. Well, these have been, these have been fun to think about different ideas to do with Colton, and of course there's, you know, there's so many more that we didn't mention.  Mark: Right. Yeah. The, the wonderful thing about having a, a ritual practice is that it's re it's everything that your imagination can come up with. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And of course, we like to swap our ideas so that we can take advantage of others imagination as well. And I hope that some of the ideas that we've talked about here today are helpful to you. But if you don't have some kind of a. Big cooking receptacle really encourage you to, to consider adding that to your magical tools. It's it, it really is a, a very useful thing both for individual work and for group rituals. Yucca: Right. And beautiful. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Right? Depending on your style, I know some people like to. Put their, their ritual tools away and wrap them in the beautiful cloths and things like that. And, and some people like to have them out on display because they like looking at them and they make them feel good when they see it. So it's both completely valid approaches. It just depends on what, what works for you. Mark: Right, Right. Yeah. So there you have. Caldron in non FIAs pagan practice. Pretty cool. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: I'm so glad it's October. Yucca: me too. Well, thank you for another great discussion and we will be back to see or talk with all of you next week Mark: Yeah, thanks everybody. Yucca: I believe. Mark: Oh yes. Talking about death. Yucca: Yes, it's October, Mark: Gotta do it. Yucca: All right. Thanks everyone. Mark: Bye bye.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E33 TRANSCRIPT: ----more----   Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder: Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: And I'm the other one, Yucca. Mark: And today we are going to talk about cults. Yucca: right. Mark: Of the things that when people choose an alternative spiritual path, one of the things that their friends and family will sometimes start to get really worried about is, oh dear, have they entered some kind of a cult? So we're gonna talk about what cults are and about what naturalistic paganism generally is. And atheopaganism specifically, and then talk about why, what we're doing does not really meet those, those criteria for what a cult is. Yucca: right. Mark: This, we, we were talking about this before the recording. If you have a family member that is really concerned that you've gone off the deep end into some terrible culty situation, you could consider having them listen to this episode. Yucca: Right. Yeah. And at the end, we're also gonna talk a little bit about recovering from some of those kind of religious traumas that, that can come along with having been in a cult situation or things that have happened in, in mainstream religions that we wouldn't necessarily think of as a cult, but still might have some of those really abusive behaviors. Mark: That's right. One thing that you'll notice when we go over the indicators that a group of any kind has attributes of a cult is that many of them apply squarely to various denominations of mainstream religions. So you know, the word cult gets Bandi about to U be used for little splinter groups or for new religious movements, but that's not really fair. The kinds of. The kinds of problematic behaviors and factors that go into Colt behavior really also include some very large institutions that have been around for a very long time. Yucca: Right. And these are things that can come along with groups that aren't necessarily just religious groups. Right? These are any time that you have. A structure in which you can have somebody who has power over dominating over somebody else. A lot of these, these risks come up. So, Mark: There are PTA associations that are dominated by, you know, one or a handful of people who cannot be questioned and run the show. And they're cult-like. Yucca: Yeah. Well, we're gonna get ahead of ourselves a little bit. Why don't we start off with, so, you know, what do we do? What is this? Atheopagan what's naturalistic, paganism or paganism in general, Mark: Sure. Sure. Well, naturalistic paganism is the big category, right? And athe paganism is a single denomination within that big category. So if you think about it, like there's Christianity, which is a whole big, huge thing. And then down underneath that there's Catholicism and Mormonism and all the various Protestant religions and so forth. So that's kind of a similar sort of, you know, taxonomic relationship between naturalistic, paganism and Ethiopia paganism. So that leads us to ask the question. All right, then. Well, what is naturalism? What is naturalistic paganism? So we'll start with naturalism. Naturalism is a philosophical position. It is the position that all things in the universe are made of matter and energy and that they follow physical laws. And there is nothing supernatural. Yucca: right. Everything is natural. Mark: Yes, Yucca: This is all nature, Mark: all nature. And it all follows physical laws and nobody gets to break the physical laws. Now we may. Yucca: of it. Mark: That's right. We may not understand all of the physical laws right now, but to our knowledge, nothing out there is able to break physical laws. And what that does is it excludes certain kinds of supernatural beliefs like beliefs in gods and ghosts, souls, and spirits, those kinds of things. They just really don't hold up in an evidential based evidentiary based critically thinking way of looking at the world, which is what naturalism is. Yucca: Right. Mark: So you were going to say, Yucca: Oh, I was gonna say, well, then we have the pagan side of that. Right. And the pagan side that, that Contras up a lot of different kinds of images. And for some people it brings up the idea of the, you know, gods and deities and you know, all of that. That isn't not all pagans are going to be doing that. And we're not in that group of pagans that believes in God's and deities, because that's not fitting with the naturalist part. Mark: Right. But what we do that is that we have in common with other pagan groups is we have a lot in common in the way that we practice our Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Um, we celebrate the solstice and equinoxes and the points between them, for example. So a solar cycle of Of holidays. We tend to celebrate our rituals in a circle rather than in kind of an audience and performer format. We Revere the natural world. We hold that out as, as sacred. And so, the primary players in arranging for our creation and survival, like the sun and the earth and the moon become very sacred for us. Right. And this is true of Pagan's largely universally. The, the truth is that paganism is so diverse and such a catchall term that the only thing that every single pagan has in common is that they self identify as pagans. Yucca: Yes, Mark: That's that's the only Yucca: that, that we call ourselves that. Yeah. But there are themes. Like you're talking about that we, we tend to be earth based. We tend to do ritual and celebrate the, the cycle of the seasons and things like that. Mark: Right. Right. And we understand ritual practices as being at the very minimum, personally, beneficial. Some pagans believe many pagans believe that rituals can actually enact magical forces in the world to change the course of events or you know, what's happening in, in the world. We don't believe that because naturalism doesn't really allow for spooky action at a distance. If new evidence comes along, we may change that opinion because part of the nature of being a naturalist is that you have to be open to new evidence all the time. So 100% certainty is not a thing in naturalistic worldview. We could be 99.9% sure that the sun is going to rise tomorrow morning, but. There's always the possibility that for some reason it doesn't. And then we have to reconsider all of our thinking about the nature of the world. Yucca: Right. Okay. So that's the umbrella naturalistic paganism. And then we also have atheopagan, which is one form of naturalistic paganism. Mark: Right. Think of atheopagan as kind of like Methodism in relation to Christianity, right? Christianity is the big umbrella. Methodism is a particular movement that was created by particular people with particular values and practices and principles atheopagan is a, a path that I created. In the early two thousands, which is built around some basic presets and naturalism is one of them, but also naturalism and critical thinking are among them, but also reverence for the earth and a set of four sacred pillars and 13 principles, which we've recorded about before, which are ethical principles for how to conduct our lives and not all pagans subscribe to those, not all naturalistic pagans, subscribe to those, but those that are, that are, are practicing athe paganism do follow those. Yucca: right. And something very important to say right up front is that, although mark, you created. The atheopagan you are a founder, you're not the leader. Right. We have a large community of people who each person makes decisions for themselves. We also have the atheopagan society council, which deals with things like putting together events and the nonprofit side of everything. And you are very much involved in the community, but just because mark says something doesn't mean that that's the law. Mark: right. Yucca: And plenty of times people disagree. And one of the things that I really value about the community is that overall people are very respectful about those disagreements, right? Mark: yeah, I mean, fundamentally. It is not really consistent with Ethiopianism to tell other people what to do. The principles are guidelines for how to live a life that is kind and conscientious and a life of integrity and a life that will help you to be happy. Yucca: Right. Mark: If you don't want to be kind and conscientious or happy, you can make other choices, but you, you know, you probably aren't practicing athe paganism at that point, you're doing something else. Yucca: Yeah. Which is fine. Right. We're you know, we, aren't out here to say join, you know, join us and we're not out there, you know, evangelizing or anything like that. Mark: right. We're we're not proselytizing people come to us cuz they want to join. And. We're very clear that everybody has their own spiritual path and they need to define that for themselves. And that's why we encourage people for example, to create their own meanings around the wheel of the year celebrations, because people live in different climates and different things, maybe happening in nature. I, you know, Yucca, you and I have talked many times about how we live in different climbs. And so our understanding of when spring starts, for example, is radically Yucca: This many months different. And then what spring actually is for each of us is quite different. Right. Mark: Yes, exactly. Yucca: And, and also just to say that many of the people who listen to this podcast, we know many of you do consider yourself a pagans and many of you don't right. And that's again, that's also fine, right? Yeah. Mark: absolutely great. And that's why, you know, we've been very careful over time to talk about athe paganism and naturalistic paganism, you know, not to assume that everybody that's listening to this is necessarily practicing atheopagan as a path. Yucca: right. Mark: But, Yucca: real quick say what the, what the pillars and principles are? Mark: Sure. But I'm going to have to pull them up. The, the, the pillars, the pillars, I know by heart, the pillars are love Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: beauty truth and life. Yucca: right, Mark: are the things that we hold sacred. And by beauty, we don't mean individual sort of cultural definitions of a person's beauty. We mean the beauty of nature, Yucca: right. Mark: right? The, the, the way that the natural world can move us Yucca: that? Wow. That wonder, Mark: Yes the wonder. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So those are the four pillars. And I should say, you know, we can find lots of you can find lots of additional information about this at both the atheopagan society website and at the and at the atheopagan blog, which is atheopagan.org. Yucca: Mm-hmm . And also in this podcast, if you just go back through our archives E we've gone, we've done an episode on each one of these topics and we've been doing it a few years. So there's, we've covered some of these multiple times as well. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. There's. Yucca: back through, Mark: There's a lot out there. So the 13 principles and it was kind of an accident that there were 13, but I was tickled by that because there are 13 cycles of the moon in the year. And for many pagans, 13 is a really special number. Yucca: it's just a fun number. Mark: a, a sacred number. Yeah. And of course it's prime and all that. So the 13 principles are number one, and these are not in a priority order, I should say. So they're think of them as bullet points rather than as a numbered list. Yucca: Mm-hmm, sort of like the seasons, right? You don't there isn't really a first season. They just come after the, and before the other ones. Mark: Right. So skepticism and critical thinking. , which is the ability to tell the difference between the literal and the metaphorical, because we work with both in our pagan practices, right. You know, we work with symbolic enactments of things, many times in our rituals, but we understand at the same time that to some degree we're playing, let's pretend we're not, you know, literally talking to an invisible being there or whatever. You know, when we, when we throw our, when we throw our, our fears into the fire, we understand that's a metaphorical behavior. That's not a literal behavior. Yucca: but it still is empowering. Right? It's play, but play is meaningful, right? You can still, you can read a book or watch a show and still be moved to tears in the same way, our ritual. We can still feel those feelings and have that impact us. Mark: Sure. Very psychologically impactful rituals. So the second is reverence for the earth. We are a living part of the earth and and reverence for that source and kin that the fabric of life is to us is really important. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: The third is gratitude for the amazing gifts of life. The fourth is humility, understanding that all humans are fundamentally equal and that nobody, you know, is entitled to Lord and above anybody else, perspective and humor, having kind of a big picture understanding of the world and being able to laugh at ourselves laugh at our religion, laugh at even the tragedies in the world, you know, just in order to stay sane and to maintain perspective you know, it's It's amazing what humor people will find in really terrible, terrible situations. The sixth is practice, which is in enacting regular ritual as a part of the practice of Ethiopia paganism. So a paganism, isn't just a philosophy where it's got a worldview and a set of values. It's also got a practice and that makes it a religion. The seventh is inclusiveness, celebrating diversity and being respectful of difference and and embracing the, the vast diversity of humanity. The eighth is legacy recognizing and embracing our responsibility to future generations, both of humans and of non-humans. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: The ninth is social responsibility, recognizing that our rights are balanced by responsibilities. And this is something that much of the pagan community is often not very good at. People are really amped about their, their personal sovereignty, but they're not so much into their personal accountability. Yucca: Right. Mark: We are very clear that all of the rights that we enjoy are balanced by responsibilities to one another. And that goes into issues like consent. It goes into all kinds of respectfulness requirements on us, including our requirement to participate in our local societies in all ways, from voting to activism, to contributing to the dialogue of the world in a, in a positive way. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Uh, the 10th is responsible con responsible sensuality and pleasure positivity. We think pleasure's good for you. We believe pleasure's a good thing. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's good. Obviously that has to be with people who are consenting. If you're getting pleasure from something you're doing with someone else it has to be with consent. But that consent is there, we say, knock yourself out. We, we don't care what kind of sex you're having. We don't care. You know, what kind of food you're eating, it's entirely up to you. What, what brings you joy? We, we are a, a projo religion which not all religions are honestly many are about shame and original sin and guilt and all that stuff. And that's just not us. Yucca: And the physical isn't bad or dirty or less than below any of those sort. We, we just don't do that. That's Mark: no. In fact, the most sacred thing to us is under our feet. So we, so we don't, you know, we don't have to look up, even though the cosmos is amazing. We don't have to look up to the higher, more spiritual stuff. The higher, more spiritual stuff is right under our feet. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: The 11th is curiosity, understanding that there is always more to be learned and keeping an open mind to learn more about other people, about the nature of the world about our society, about culture, just keeping a lively mind. The 12th is integrity. You know, being true to your word, being, being fulfilling your, your responsibilities and being a trustworthy person Yucca: and honest with yourself too. It not just with others, but with yourself. Mark: absolutely. And then finally the 13th is kindness and compassion. And the little note underneath it says, I practice kindness and compassion with myself and others understanding that I will not always meet the standards of these principles. You know, we all get mad, we all, we all blow it. We all, you know, fail to clear the bar once in a while, you have to be compassionate with yourself, learn from it. So you won't do it again. But we are, we are not believers in constantly flogging yourself for something shameful you did 20 years ago. It's just that doesn't do you or anyone else? Any good? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So those are the 13 principles of atheopagan. Most of 'em are pretty common sensical. But of course I would think that cuz I developed them. It seems like a lot of other people find them common sensical as well. They're like, oh, you know, this isn't painful. These aren't, you know, these aren't terrible strictures that are gonna require me to jump through all kinds of hoops in order to be a, a good atheopagan pagan. Yucca: Yeah. yeah, no, it's, it's great to have them, you know, written down and spelled out and be like, oh yeah, yeah. I agree with that. Mark: I. Yucca: makes sense. Mark: I think most of them are, can be characterized as generally pagan values. The pleasure positivity the reverence for the earth the social responsibility, the inclusivity, you know, all of those are very common in the pagan community. I wouldn't say universal, but they're very common in the pagan community. And so all that I've done is write 'em down and codify 'em Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you know, Yucca: So this is us, right? This is we talking about what we are. Is there anything you wanna say on that before we go into what a cult is? Mark: No, let's talk about cults. Yucca: Yeah. so we actually have a little bit of a list for this one as well. Some behaviors or things to look out for that really characterize a cult that any one of these would be, would be a real major red flag. Mark: Right. Right. And bear in mind, you know, as we were saying before, with new religious movements or with small splinter groups, people are often very concerned about the idea that these groups are a cult, but very old, very large institutions can also be, can also have these characteristics that are very cult-like. You know, we're gonna talk in a bit about the, the recovery the, the deconstruction of reli of, especially like sort of conservative authoritarian, religion that people experience when they leave those religions to become atheist or agnostic, or to become Ethiopia, pagans, or other naturalistic kinds of folks. Yucca: Right Mark: And many of the people that have those experiences are not coming out of little tiny sects, they're coming out of large institutions. Yes, very wealthy, very powerful institutions. Yucca: Yeah. So let's start the, our first one. Which is one that you definitely see in like the movies and shows and things about this. Is there being usually one or more like a small group of really charismatic leaders who cannot be questioned or challenged, right. That their authority is ultimate, right? Mark: And you see this in a lot of sort of charismatic Christian sex. You see this in in Hindu guru sex, but when you think about it, I mean, the head of the church of latter day saints is considered to be speaking for God and cannot be challenged or questioned. The Pope charismatic leader who cannot be challenged or questioned, same kind of deal. Right. One of the, and, and I put that at the top of the list because I think it's, it it's arguably the most important one, but of course these, you know, there are many others that are, are really important as well. I may be the founder of Ethiopia paganism because I wrote first an essay and then a book kind of laying out the thinking of how I arrived at this position and my ideas for implementation of a path of naturalistic paganism. But I, and you, you can debate about my charisma, but I certainly Yucca: got a pretty high Christmas score, frankly. If, if we were in D and D I think you'd be a bar. Mark: okay. Thank you. That's that's very kind. I like it. But I certainly am not someone who cannot be challenged or questioned within our community. That that is not the case at all. And sometimes I'm wrong. And hopefully when I, you know, when I calm down I admit that I'm wrong. And then, you know, and I apologize and try to make amends and we move forward from there. The, when we created the atheopagan society, the nonprofit organization to help support atheopagan worldwide and help provide resources and networking and events and education for atheopagan. It was important to me that the board of directors, which is called the atheopagan society council not have me as an officer. It was really important to me that, I mean, I'm on the council, but I'm not an officer of the council. I'm not one of the ranking people in the council. And I feel that that's important. There are other people who can make decisions without me, Yucca: Right. Mark: and I think that's great, Yucca: Yeah. And, and I think it's important to distinguish in this, that we're not saying that if, if an organization has a leader or has leaders that that makes it culty, the, the problem is the not being able to be challenged, not being able to be questioned that it's that power over everybody else. That's the, the real issue at hand, right? Mark: Yeah. Awful lot of the rest of this. Is really a function of hierarchy. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And in atheopagan we strive very much not to be built around hierarchy, to have a very, very flat power structure. Even our ordained clergy who are called clerics that's a, a service role to the community. It's not a status elevation and anybody. Yucca: with the council as well. It's, you know, people volunteer to do a whole bunch of work, basically. That's what it means to be on the council. Is, are you gonna do all this work for free Mark: yeah, exactly. Yucca: yeah, none of, and, and with, within the society, we don't have any paid positions. This is all people doing it because, because we see it as, as service and something we want to be involved in and that we really value. Mark: That's right. That's right now. I wanna say two things about that. The first one is that as fair disclosure, I, as an individual do have a Patreon. And so I have people that make a monthly contribution to me to support my work in Ethiopia, paganism, like the book that I'm writing now. The blog posts that I make, the resources that I create, Yucca: you do get royalties on your, your book sales Mark: I, yes, I do. Yes, I do. So, so I mean, there is some money that changes hands, but it's not the atheopagan so society is an entirely volunteer organization. Yucca: yeah. Mark: The other thing that I wanna say is that and we've mentioned this before. If you want to be an atheopagan cleric, if you can embrace those 13 principles, then you can go to the atheopagan society website, which is the AP society.org. And you can register as a cleric online. And that is a legally binding ordination. You can perform marriages and funerals and other rights of passage, all that kind of stuff. You can do hospice counseling and all that kind of stuff. And you can do that for free. So, we, you know, we really do believe everybody should be the. The director of their own spiritual path. And if they want to perform those services, they should be empowered to do so. Yucca: right. And if we can help, then, you know, we can provide resources and community spaces and things like that. And that's, that's kind of the role that the society's doing. Mark: right. So there's a lot of, you know, there's an introductory guidebook. You can download, you know, that talks about abuse, reporting requirements, how to organize different kinds of rituals. Working with the dying, working with the family of the dying you know, stuff like that, that will be helpful to you. As a cleric. So let's get back to our list. If you've, you've got these charismatic leaders who cannot be challenged or questioned, that's definitely a problem. The next one is deceptive recruitment tactics, Yucca: Right. Mark: and boy, the church of Scientology really specializes in those. I don't know if you've ever been in the situation where someone on a bicycle wheels up to you and asks you the time. But asking you the time to start a conversation is something that was chronic in my hometown. And it was always about trying to get you to come on down to the church of Scientology and sign up for their classes. Yucca: right. And this'll come in a little bit later, but especially kind of going after people in vulnerable positions, Mark: Yes. Yes. It bears saying that prosperity gospel is one of those deceptive recruitment tactics saying if you pray with us at our church and you contribute a bunch of money to our fabulously wealthy charismatic leader, you too will then be blessed with lots of money is a deceptive recruitment tactic. Yucca: Right. Yeah. Mark: The next on the list is exclusivity members are not allowed to belong to other groups or faiths. This is not true of Ethiopia, paganism. You can belong to whatever other faiths you want. Although if, if you belong to other faiths that believe in literal gods as being out there in the world, how you figure that out with your Ethiopia, paganism is a mystery to me, but if you can do it more power to you, if that works for you as a, as a path, Yucca: right. Mark: The, the whole idea of and we'll talk about this later on as well. The whole idea of trying to, to keep you away from people who don't believe the same thing as the group is very problematic. It's a real red flag. Yucca: Yeah. And so in atheopagan, and, and I think most forms of naturalistic paganism in general, you don't belong to anybody. You aren't owned by the group. Right. You're your own. And nobody gets to tell you what you get to believe or not believe or who you get to associate with or any of that that's, that's nobody's business, but yours. So Mark: Many religious traditions put a big value on submission. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: Paganism generally. And atheopagan specifically does not, we, we do not believe that submitting or humbling ourselves before some higher power, any of we yeah. You know, fearing the, the supernatural beings. We don't believe any of that. And what that means is that our path is one of spirituality with personal agency, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: rather than out of submission or fear or domination. Yucca: right. Well, and that leads us to our next one, which is the use of intimidation, fear, shame, isolation that are used to punish somebody for not conforming, not going along. That's, that's something that is. a really classic sign of, of cult behavior, Mark: Yes. Yes. And we in atheopagan we encourage nonconformity in the form of individually tailored holidays and ritual practices. So it's quite the opposite, you know, we, we don't do what I do, do what you do, cuz that makes you feel good. That's that's how we would prefer it to work. Yucca: and we're not telling you that if you don't do it our way that you're gonna be unhappy and go to hell or any of that, it, we're not worried about that. It's okay. You know, you just do you. That's awesome. It works for you. Fantastic. Mark: Yes, exactly. And at that at, at this point, it's probably a good thing to point out that in naturalistic, paganism, generally speaking, we don't believe in an afterlife. So there's this idea of the world as approving ground for some sort of future judgment just doesn't exist. Our life is about this life. It's about how we conduct ourselves in this life. And it's about how much joy we can both celebrate and create in, in the world around us. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, so it becomes really important that people's practices are individually tailored because the point is for it to work for them, the point is not for it to work for an institution. Yucca: Right. Mark: So the next point is religious dogma. That must be followed and. You know, we all know about those that, you know, they can be, they can be dietary requirements, they can be requirements to go to religious rituals or services a certain number of times a, a day, a week, a year. Yes, dress codes, various kinds of sort of shaming behavior to get people, to, to follow what the expectations of the religion are. And, and a lot of beliefs that you have to subscribe to generally, I mean, in various kinds of fundamentalist Christianity, you are required to literally believe the stories of the Bible. Even though they kind of fly in the face of, of critical thinking. You're expected to believe them literally. And if you don't, then you get intimidation, fear, shame, and isolation from your community. Yucca: right. So another really kind of problematic indicator and in any situation which is sexual abuse or manipulation So, especially when there is that charismatic leader and those leaders are sexually involved with lower status members. And that is expected as some sort of cha like as an exchange or for elevation in the group or you know, to be able to stay part of the group, you're gonna have to do these things. Mark: Right. Right. And and of course we see that kind of abuse in religious traditions all over the world. It is rife. In all cases where you see it, the hierarchy is the issue, the power imbalance, because I, you know, in atheopagan we don't care if two members of our group who are Yucca: or more, Mark: or, or more have sex yeah. Have sex with each other. We don't care about that at all. But we don't have any like insider knowledge or special status or initiation into an inner sanctum. We don't have any of that stuff in our religion. So there's no way to hold those things out as kind of allure to try to get people to have sex with you, non consensually. Yucca: right. Mark: There are there, has there have been problems with sexual abuse in pagan communities? You know, we need to, we need to say that. And they have generally been pagan communities where there are charismatic leaders who cannot be challenged or questioned and it's, and there's a hierarchical power dynamic and people get abused and it's not right. Yucca: And I wanna say this is something that happens outside of religious communities as well. You know, there's been over the last few years, quite a lot of talk about that in Hollywood and in different, you know, businesses and moving up and, and, you know, corporate structures, all of that. So wherever you've got that, that hierarchy of the, the power over, there's a, a risk for that. And it's something that we have to be really careful about. And so the, the way that we structure our communities helps avoid that in the first place. Mark: Right, right. And so far so good. As far as we know we have had, you know, no, to my knowledge, we have had no incidences of, of problems with this.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So that's good. But we are new, of course the, the atheopagan community just celebrated a 10 year anniversary. So we're relatively new and we're far flung. So much of our interaction is online, but We do have, we have had in person gatherings and do have in person gatherings. And so far, those seem to have been respectful and conscientious and we have not had any reports of any kind of, of abuse. Yucca: Right. Mark: So the next, oh, go ahead. Yucca: I was gonna say, and I, and I'm, I'm very confident that if we did have something that we did have conflict like that come up, that I've been very impressed by the, the people involved and think that overall people would really try and do their best to resolve the issue in a very respectful and, you know, With lots of integrity and, and really just be very present with that because that's built into our values. Mark: I agree. I agree. Yeah. Yeah, I, I think I'll leave it there. It One of the things that has been so gratifying to me with a Theo paganism, because I did originally develop it just for myself, is that the people that have gravitated towards it have just been these really remarkable, very grown up, very creative. I mean, everybody's working with their wounds. Right. You know, we, we're all, we're all working on our stuff. It's the nature of things. But just a lot of kindness, lot of open-heartedness just really fine, fine people I've been, I've been just delighted. Yucca: yeah. Mark: So, let's talk about the next point, which is that in a cult or a cult-like institution, there is emphasis placed on recruiting, vulnerable people. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: So like people that have recently experienced a loss, like a death or a divorce people who are struggling with survival, like maybe homeless people or unhoused people, I should say homeless is not really liked anymore. And you know, or who have health issues, there's, there's a, an emphasis on trying to find people who are in need and then plugging the religious path into whatever need they have in order to claim that it's some kind of an answer. Yucca: right. Mark: And not only is that very cult-like, but I would say it's really shitty. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That is just truly awful behavior it's predatory. And I just can't imagine. Being a part of anything like that. Yucca: Right now that isn't to say not trying to help people who are vulnerable, but trying to sell them the religion as taking advantage of their situation to try and recruit them into this, whatever your thing is. Mark: Right. I, I think of soup kitchens where people are required to pray for their fed, you know, that's just awful. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: who does that? Well, I, we can name some names, Yucca: that happens. Yeah. Mark: yeah, Yucca: that? You know, the, the example works because that it's so widespread. So yeah. oh, go ahead. Mark: no, go ahead. Yucca: Well, I was gonna say the next one would be kind of this isolating, right? The really encouraging members to only engage with each other. Um right. Even sometimes to the point of excluding and not disowned family members or previous friends just saying, and that no, we've gotta be really insular. Right. It's us. Don't go to an I outside, you know, don't go to a therapist, don't go to anyone else. You know, don't have other friends, so that they're really just wrapped up in this one world view without any outside perspectives. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. That kind of insularity is very widespread in Christianity. I, I would imagine it probably is in Islam and Judaism as well. And I know it is in Scientology as well. But I mean, particularly in conservative branches of Christianity, like, latter day saints, or, you know, some of the evangelical churches, it's like, if you don't belong to our church, we don't want anything to do with you, Yucca: right. Mark: or we're telling you, you shouldn't have anything to do with people that are not a part of our church. And that's just harmful for a lot of reasons, for one things, because it's turning spiritual practitioners into prisoners, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: which is kind of scary. But for another thing, being exposed to the diversity of humanity is a good thing. Yucca: Right. Mark: One of the reasons why we see such incredible narrow mind and bigotry among evangelical Christians, at least in the United States is because they're not hanging out with anybody other than people like themselves. And it's very easy for them to decide that people that are not like themselves are somehow less or subhuman and that their needs concerns and welfare can safely be ignored. And that's just a dangerous, dangerous path to go down. Yucca: right. Well, and, and when they're isolated, it's harder for someone to challenge that unable leader. Right to know that some of these behaviors are not normal behaviors and that they're not healthy behaviors, that that's not just how it is everywhere. Mark: Right. And it creates a tremendous social cost to leaving. Yucca: right. Mark: If you decide this is not okay, and I've gotta go. And what that means is that your entire social circle disappears and, or your family disowns you Yucca: maybe your survival, right. Not just at an emotional level, but the, that that may be you're survival net. Mark: that's right, Yucca: How are you going to feed yourself? How are you going? What are you gonna do when you know, you've gotta go to the hospital and someone needs to take you. And all of those things just evaporate, Mark: right, Yucca: right? Your childhood friend, your dog, your, you know, your kids, all of that stuff. Mark: Yeah, it's some of the stories are just terrible. I mean, it's just as bad where people get ejected because they're gay or they're trans, or they're just different in some way. And they get ejected from the group because the group doesn't approve of who they are and suddenly they have no social resources. It's just terrible. So the next one is pretty obvious, but it needs to be on the list. And that is financial exploitation of members, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: um, requiring tithing constantly strong arming people to be paying for, you know, the, the church fund or the, whatever it is, you know, constantly, you know, pressing on people to be giving money. It's exploitative. It doesn't take into consideration the varying levels of resources that people have available. And honestly, it doesn't let them make their own decision about where they wanna invest their money. Yucca: Right. Well, and, and you could make the argument, oh, they're choosing to, but when this is in the context of all of this other behavior, it can be really difficult to not do that. Right. And they, you know, the suggestion may not just be a suggestion, Mark: Exactly. Because the word will get around that you did not that you're not tithing. Right. Everybody else is tithing, but you're not tithing. And so judgements begin to be made and decisions get start being made about where you sit in the hierarchy. Yucca: Yeah. And finally, we can say the lack of transparency, right? So in, in an organization like this, the decisions may be made in secret, Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: People don't even know what the decisions are made especially when it comes to finances, but not just finances, social decisions, all of that sort of stuff that there's not a way to track it. There's not a way to know. And it's just, it just comes down. Right? The decision is made. Mark: Yeah, exactly. And. To me. It's just, it's a part of that whole non-hierarchical approach to things that, I mean, you have it because the way that the laws of the United States are organized, they can't even comprehend the idea of a non-hierarchical organization. So we have to have a board of directors in order to have a non-profit organization. Right. But the idea of that group not aggressively soliciting the input of the broader community and communicating out whatever decisions it makes based on those. Just, it's just appalling the idea, especially that these very wealthy institutions could be doing stuff like that is you know, when, when Joel Ostein needs another private plane, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: you know, Basically he and his cronies are making that decision on their own without any transparency with the rest of the community. It's just it's wrong. And it's really culty, Yucca: Yeah. Well, and I mean, the, the reason that we're bringing this up is, again, emphasizing this isn't what fits our beliefs and values, right? There's a lot of groups doing activities like this and this particular list, mark, you would put this together out of several different lists, right? And these are the ones that any one of these is a problem where some of the other lists, you found things that are like, eh, kind of iffy, but maybe it's like, okay, but any one of these, these issues is, is really just a huge, huge red flag. Mark: Right when I was doing, oh, go Yucca: I was gonna say, and they usually don't come. Mark: No. Yucca: you've got the unable leader, then you probably also have the dogma and the abuse and the, you know, those things. Usually you're gonna have a lot of them together. Mark: Yeah. When I was researching to, to first write on this the there were some lists that were, you know, if you score four or more, then you, you may have a problem kind of lists. And I, I just, I just took out the, the sort of iffy ones and compiled them, you know, compiled the 10 worst, most egregious concerns into a bullet list. I think it can be said with some confidence that if you don't have any of these things, you're probably not in a cult. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: You know, you're, you're probably in a reasonably health healthy, reasonably open kind of spiritual path. Yucca: right, Mark: So we wanted to talk a little bit about deconstruction and recovery, Yucca: right, Mark: In the atheopagan community. We have an affinity group that meets once a month on zoom of people who are deconstructing from other religions and feel the need for support. You know, people have real horror stories about ways that they've been treated in a religious context. And I really honor those people for their bravery in pursuing a new spirituality, instead of just saying I'm done. I'm, you know, I'm gonna live a life without spirituality because I don't, I just don't trust any of that anymore. Yucca: right. Because the spirituality really can. Can give us so much in our lives. Right. And really can fulfill a very deep instinctual human need that we have. Mark: Yes, and bring so much joy and gratitude and appreciation and such a sense of warm, shared community. I mean the, the danger is that even in very culty kinds of contexts, people still have that sense of community and they will stick around for it. Yucca: Well, that's why they're sticking around. Mark: That's right. Yucca: Right. That's you know an abusive relationship, whether it's abusive relationship with a partner or with. Different family member or larger community or religion, there's still something in there that is feeding you. And that's why it can be one of the reasons it can just be so hard to, to remove yourself from Mark: To let go. Yucca: Right. Because there is that beautiful part. There is that wonderful part. And then there's the not right. Then there is the manipulation and then there's the exploitation and there's all of that. And so, you know, there's, I think that it's, it's really important to have a lot of compassion for people who are in these situations and, and recognize that that it's something that, that we can all relate to on some level or another. Right. Mark: Right. In the, in the development of Ethiopia, paganism as a community and as a, as a. A spiritual tradition rather than just sort of my individual path. One of the things that I remain really cognizant of is that there are people coming into this community who are gonna test because they've been burned before. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: And so they sort of poke with these questions, right? It's like, well, what about this? You know, what about money? Well, we accept donations to the atheopagan society because we do have some expenses. But you don't have to be a member. We don't have members and you don't have to be a member of it in order to be call yourself an atheopagan and practice the, the, the path. Yucca: and we won't announce if you, you, it's not gonna be an, if you decide to donate, we're not gonna announce and give you special status. And, you know, we'll Mark: We, we will, we will list you on the, on the patrons list. On the website, if you want to be, if you wanna be anonymous, then we won't, Yucca: but you're not gonna get like a badge if you're on the Facebook group that says, you know, I'm, Mark: I'm a donor. Yucca: I'm a donor. Yes. I'm a class, you know, a class supernova donor or something like that, right? Yeah. Mark: that's right. Because people have, you know, at times been you know, very sharp in their interrogation of me, you know, what's your role, you know? Aren't you, the final decision maker of all the things the council does, you know, all, all that kind of stuff and no, I'm, I'm not, and I don't want it that way. What I want is to do this right from the very beginning, my vision has been, what if you did, what if you did an earth based reason based. Spiritual path and you did it, right. You didn't step into any of the pitfalls that have plagued other religious paths. You know, if you are really open and really flat power structure and really transparent open your books to the public so they can see, you know, the money and where the money goes, all that stuff. And that's what we're doing so far. Yucca: Yeah, right. And that's, and you know, that's not just, that's not just Mark's vision, that's the broader vision. Right. And that's, that's part of it. So. Mark: Right. I mean, if you can characterize the atheopagan community At all. It says a group of people who have all kind of come together to say, let's do this really well. Let's do it really well for ourselves and really well for the world. And just, you know, let's do this at a very high level of integrity. Yucca: mm-hmm and just very thoughtful. That's something that just comes up again and again is just how thoughtful people are about all of this. Mark: yeah, I agree. Now there are downsides of that for somebody like me, I'm not making a mint on this. But I'm. I'm so happy with how this is all proceeded. The idea of, you know, having to have this be something that I can leverage for a lot of money, just really doesn't cross my mind. And I, to be honest, I think that if I tried the community would vanish, just, just vanish. Yucca: I don't think they could build this kind of community on that. Right. Certainly communities can be built on those types of principles, but this particular community. I think the reason that we're here, the reason that we, that we're doing all of this is, again, it goes back to what we were talking about before with the principles and the pillars is that we share those things. Right. And those aren't really compatible with the list that we just gave of, of red flags. That's not that isn't compatible with religious dogma and with, you know, deceptive recruitment tactics and things like that. That just doesn't line up with what we're searching for and trying to cultivate and grow. Mark: Right. We don't endorse exploitation. We don't endorse exploitation of the planet. We don't endorse exploitation of one another Yucca: Right. Mark: and a willingness to indulge. Various kinds of exploitation is characteristic of the sorts of organizations that get into trouble with things like that are on this list. You know, people in our community, they're, they're pretty quick to say if they feel like they've been treated unfairly or if they if they don't feel hurt or if their feelings are hurt and we talk about it and To the best degree possible, we make it right. Yucca: Right. Mark: It's just a different approach to things. So there are some resources for people who are deconstructing from religion, who don't necessarily want to be naturalistic pagans or whatever. There is the recovery from religion foundation, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: um, which is a great organization and they have online groups and a variety of resources for people who are deconstructing from religion. Encourage you to look into that. And Yucca: Whether you're interested in non theos, paganism or not. Right. Mark: Yes, Yucca: so it could be, it could be useful in both cases. Yeah. Mark: There's also the freedom from religion foundation, which is more of an advocacy organization for separation of church and state. But they do also have resources for people who are leaving abusive religious contexts and are are seeking support. So, encourage you to look into both of those, you know, if that's your situation. And also of course, we invite you to, you know, join our community. If you think that these values are things that are consistent with what you wanna do, and you can be a part of that recovery meeting that happens once a month. I think it's the first Tuesday, maybe first, Monday. I'm not sure I'm in a lot of these meetings. Yucca: Yeah. Well, and also some of the stuff that we, you know, we didn't talk too much about it, but the ritual practice and things like that can really help in healing processes. Right. Whatever it is, whether it was a religious trauma or childhood, or those often go hand in hand actually or whatever it is that, that that you're dealing with, you know, part of what we're trying to do is, is. develop lives and practices that support ourselves and develop the tool sets that help us to be able to do those things in whatever way matches us as individuals. Right? Yeah. Mark: For example I know people that have done full. Funerals and burials literal burial in a hole in the ground of their religion, of their, the religion that they've left. And that sounds like it might be kind of silly, but it's not, it's very serious. And they feel really different after it's been done going through those symbolic activities to, you know, psychologically divest yourself of something that has been hanging over you for a long time can be really psychologically impactful. And those are the kinds of practices that we learn how to do in naturalistic, paganism and that we do for one another and that we share. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So if, if this is the first episode of the wonder that you've ever heard, because you're being, you're just joining us or you're A family member or friend said, Hey, you should listen to this because I'm doing this atheopagan thing or naturalistic pagan thing. And I know you're worried about it. So here, check this out. Welcome. And there is plenty more information about atheopagan at the Ethiopia pagan society website, which is the AP society.org or, and, or at the Ethiopia paganism blog that I do, which is Ethiopia, paganism.org. And there's a YouTube channel. There's this podcast. There's a Twitter feed. There's the Facebook group. Yes, there's, there's a lot of different places where you can meet others and talk and ask questions and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: And as we mentioned before, we're, we're pretty young, so we're just growing, but there are some affinity, local affinity groups, which are starting to form, so for different areas of the world or the country. So there might be, you know, people in your local area as well for, you know, face to face conversations and not just over the keyboard. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. So, thank you for this conversation. Yucca. This has been a good one. I feel like.  Yucca: There's a lot here today. Yeah. Mark: yeah, and, you know, there are so many just sort of assumptions that we make about how we're going to do our business that we don't really talk about explicitly. And I think bringing all of those out is really important. So people see, you know, the kind of people we are and the kind of thing that we're trying to build. Yucca: and yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yucca: yeah. Well thank you for this conversation. So, and next week, we're, we're gonna be in October already and we have a lot of really fun topics coming up Mark: fun topics like death and decomposition. Yucca: Yes, well, and, and cauldrons and ancestors and all of that good stuff. So, yeah. Mark: It's gonna be great. Yucca: All right. Well, thanks everybody.    .

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E28 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science based paganism. I'm your host Yucca. Mark: and I'm mark. Yucca: And this week we have a really interesting topic. We're gonna be talking about. Religion in general, what is religion? What purpose does it have? And also looking at how naturalistic paganism differs from the, the big three in Western society. Mark: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation because these are questions that I've spent a lot of time researching and thinking about parti. When I was first pulling the threads together, that would become Ethiopia paganism. Obviously when you think about, well, why do people have religion, then you have to start asking yourself what is a religion, right. And everything sort of tumbles downhill from there. It's very interesting. Yucca: Yeah. And you'll certainly get different opinions on what a religion is. We were talking about before this, how there are some folks who will say that they'll define religion in such a narrow way that really only Christianity, Judaism and Islam fit into the category. And they'll kind of ignore the rest of the many, many different possibilities that humans have, you know, just today, not even thinking about what we've had in the past and may have in the future. But we're gonna be taking a little bit more of a, a broader perspective on that. Mark: Right. Yeah. I mean, for those religious scholars and anthropologists of religion who focus down on a very narrow, definition of religion that only slots to those. Kind of major movements throughout the world. To me, that's begging the question. I, I think what we ought to be looking for is what are the human needs that are being met and by what kinds of mechanisms and how can we generalize about that into a definition of all of those kinds of behaviors and needs. And crystallize that down into a definition for what a religion is that that's been my approach. Yucca: Right. Mark: So let's get into it. Yucca: Yeah, we should say before though, that we will be comparing a lot to those big three that we've been talking about and that's, you know, it's not to be picking on them or singling them out or anything. It's just that the societies that both mark and I come from are very steeped in these. These are the Christianity has really influenced and shaped so much of our cultures in ways that we're aware of it in ways that. often, you know, unaware of as well. Mark: Right because we are so. Inured to them. They're so normal to us that it doesn't even occur to us that it's possible to live any other way or to think any other way about the world. Particularly we're going to be talking a lot about Christianity because that's what the really dominant religion in the United States where both of us live, but. A lot of what we're saying could also be applied in areas that are dominated, say by Islam or by conservative brands of Judaism or other faiths that share these kind of general characteristics. So it's not to pick on Christianity particularly. It's it's more to say this is what we're most familiar with and what we see. Creating the subtext for the over culture of where we live. Yucca: Mm-hmm right. Mark: So let's get into it. Where, where should we start? Yucca: Well, I think with, you know, what a religion is and the purpose of a religion, right. And those two are kind of blurred together. Right? Mark: Right, right. And of course, depending on what religion you are, you'll have very different answers for that. Because if you ask a Christian, what the purpose of their religion is, it's salvation, right? You're, you're supposed to follow these rules and. Cate yourself to this God, and that will get you a ticket to heaven with various terms and conditions applying depending on what the faith specifics are. Yucca: The particular sect within there. Yeah. Mark: Right. But when we look at a, in a broader sense not religious specifically, worldwide. And over time we can see that what religion has done is provide certain things for populations of people. It's given them a sense of shared values. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: It's given them a sense of community and connection with one another. It's given them a way of making sense of the calendar in terms of celebrating a, a set of seasonal holidays around the course of the year. And it's answered big questions that That people ask, like, you know, why am I here? What am I here for? What's the purpose of living? What is, what is the nature of the universe even, Yucca: I mean, it's, it's creating the context, right? It's how do we understand our context, us, our relationship to community and the world. Mark: right, right. And. As we look throughout the world, we can see that people's spiritual expression. Does those things for them, no matter what kind of spiritual expression it is, even in monastic communities, their communities, right. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: Um, very, very rare to find people who are so monastic that they, you know, essentially go to a cave and do their thing by themselves. Because humans are social creatures and mostly we like to feel connected with each other in some sort of shared. Enterprise, right. Some way of organizing our society so that we can eat and we can be safe and we can be happy as best we can. So. When I was studying all this stuff and, and I really went down the rabbit hole into brain structures and how the brain evolved that I won't really get into now, but the appetites of the various systems of the brain map, pretty, pretty well onto the things that religion provides. Right. And. considering all this stuff. My conclusion is that a religion is basically a combination of three things. The first is a description of the universe or a cosmology, and that can be heaven and hell in purgatory and the, the, the world in between, or it can be a wheel of karma that you're trying to get off, or it can be. The, the narrative described by science, which is the one that we subscribe to the, the description Yucca: shifting and changing. Mark: yes, Yucca: Yeah. But we've got several standard models that we're working with at the moment. Right. And those get challenged and they change slightly. And. Mark: right. But there's. There's a fundamental belief underneath that, which is that science, that the universe is a material set of processes, which are governed by laws and that those laws are consistent throughout the universe. And that we can understand them. and learn to be predictive of what's going to happen in a given situation, based on our understanding of how those material processes work. That's a very, very different understanding than a, you know, super mystical Christian view where, you know, the mind of God is unknowable and we, we just never know what's gonna happen because anything is possible. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: Yeah. So. Cosmology is the first piece. The second is the set of values. Every religious movement. Every spirituality, coalesces around a set of things that things that they think are right and wrong, things that they think are sacred and to be protected and revered and things that they, that they think are profane or or worthy of disrespect, not necessarily the last one, but definitely the first one. And that's important because part of the way that you build community is by having people of like mind, right? I mean, we talk about a pagan community and you know, you're not gonna find any group that's really much more diverse than that. But the one thing that we do have in common is that most of us share a set of values around. Independence around personal sovereignty, around consent, around equality around inclusiveness. And of course there are exceptions to these rules, but they are not the rule. They are the exception. Yucca: Right. Well, and, and those particular qualities or properties when there's exceptions. It's usually there's one or two exceptions, but then the others are held, right. Mark: Right. Yucca: Kind of like a metal in chemistry. Right. You have all these properties, you remember in chemistry class that made you memorize, like, oh, it's conductive and it's ductile and all the, you know, there's but there's a few exceptions, right? Mercury is liquid at room temperature, but it's still a metal, but most of the others they're, they're solid at room temperature. Right. So it's like that. Mark: Yeah, exactly, exactly that. So you've got your cosmology, you've got your set of values. And then the last is a set of practices. And this is where a religion differs from a philosophy, in my opinion, UN under my definition, because a philosophy can have a set of values and a cosmology, and you can talk about 'em all day long, but that's not the same thing as a a. As a religion, which has holidays rituals, observances modes of dress dietary restrictions, in some cases, all these kind of strictures around behavior and, and prescriptions of behavior. That go into a, a ritual practice. And so when I was creating atheopagan, this is the model that I used. The cosmology was the easy part because all I had to do was point to science and say, listen to them. The values part, I spent a lot of time on thinking about what the definition of the sacred is. And I came up with the four sacred pillars and then the 13 principles, which are ethical principles for. Best to live our lives. Yucca: Which we have episodes on. We should revisit that soon. Actually. I Mark: We should. Yucca: We really should it's but because I think that would've, we were still the beginning of 20, 21, or we might've still been in 2020 when we did those, but the, yeah. Mark: It's it's been a while. So the idea there, and this, this is something that was a little radical for the pagan world because the pagan world, people tend not to wanna be told what to do. They're very, very. know, reactive to the idea of anybody controlling them. So there's very little in the way of developed ethics in most of paganism at least modern Neo paganism. Yucca: Right. Mark: And I feel like lets us off the hook for having to be ethical people. We do have responsibilities to the earth. We have responsibilities to one another. We have responsibilities to future generations and we need to conduct ourselves in a manner that's consistent with that. And then there are also principles that just have to do with how to be a happy and a good person like Humor and perspective, for example, you know, being able to find the humor in things and being able to laugh at yourself are ways to stay humble and there are ways to enjoy your life and to be able to deal with hardship in a way that that lightens it to some Yucca: Mm. Mm. Mark: So that was the value system, the four pillars and the 13 principles. And then came practices and that's where the paganism part really came in with the wheel of the year holidays daily practices, observances of the cycles of the moon rituals, just for whatever purposes we need them for like a job search or. Recovering from grief or Rite of passage to become, you know, to go from being a teenager, to being an adult, for example. And the pagan community really what's the word I'm looking for? Excels really excels at that aspect of religiosity because we're encouraged to create our own rituals and we learn to be really creative and effective at transforming consciousness through the use of ritual technologies. Yucca: Right. Mark: So. Yucca: We're often described as the religion of doing right. It's about what we do. And there, of course is the belief component. But the, the, one of the things that unites pagans often is what we do. Not necessarily what we believe. Mark: right. What they call an ortho religion as opposed to an oxic religion. Right. Yucca: yeah  Mark: this is very different than many of the. The predominant Christian sex that exist around us because they have prescribed rituals. I mean, the sermon may be different every week, but the ritual itself, the mass, all that kind of stuff. It's the same all the time. And it it's very carefully stipulated. Exactly. You need to do at a given time of year and the priesthood don't have a lot of flexibility in that. Whereas in paganism you may not have priesthood at all, which we don't in atheopagan. Yucca: Right. Well, I mean, anyone can become a cleric if they, if they wanna go to the website and sign up so that you can, you know, perform marriages legally and that sort of thing. But, but we don't have anything where. Anybody is in a higher position or any sort of hierarchy, Mark: That's right. Yeah. The idea there is everybody should have the. To marry other people or conduct funerals or whatever, if that's what they want to do and provide that service to the community. But being an atheopagan cleric is a service commitment. It's not an elevation in status. Yucca: Right. Well, you're not from a different cast. Mark: No. And you're, and you're not a gatekeeper of secret knowledge or, you know, special rights that only you can do or any of that stuff. We don't have that. Some pagan traditions. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: and that's, that's what they do, but it's not what we do. So that's what I think of when I think of a religion. And what I'm always looking for is can you think of any religious traditions or spiritual traditions that don't include those three things? Yucca: No. I mean, I can think of. The one thing that I can think of that isn't, that doesn't usually get listed as a religion, but has, well, no, some of the, some of the philosophies kind of start to. Blur into that with particular practices. Right. But then they don't come along with Cosmo. I'm thinking of stoicism for instance, but stoicism doesn't come along with a, with a cosmology, but it comes a you've got values and practices, not necessarily holidays. So, but in terms of something that is seen really as a religion all of the ones that I have exposure to. Seem like they've got something there. Now many of them don't have, there was something that you didn't say, and that was God's right now that may be included in some people's cosmology, but we don't think that you have to believe in a God or a deity to be, or the supernatural at all, for it to be a religion. That's just one particular flavor of cosmology. Mark: right. And it's the kind that has ended up dominating the religious spiritual space for thousands of years. But that doesn't mean that it's the only way to have a spirituality, which I mean, some people try to debate with, but we've got thousands of people that are practicing this thing. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: tell us that it's not spirituality or not religion? Yucca: Or it's just spirituality at a certain point. Like I, for me, it becomes like a, okay. Fine. You can say we're not a religion, but I mean, we are like, you could say that we're not, but we are in, you know, we have legal status to say so as well, Mark: That's true. Yes. We, we have been recognized by the internal revenue service as meeting the characteristics for a religious nonprofit organization. So,  Yucca: paperwork. Mark: there, there is that. Yeah. I think one of the things. Religion and spirituality that it's always important to bear in mind when we talk about this stuff is that there are no universally accepted definitions for either of those terms. Yucca: right. Mark: And very learned people with lots of letters after their names, who specialize in these things, disagree, vehemently about what they need. So it's. It's not really our job to try to resolve all that. All I know is that of all of the spiritual or religious traditions that I have been able to learn about worldwide. They've all had a cosmology, a set of values and a set of practices. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: And in many cases that cosmology is populated by one or more gods or spirits or sacred powers of one kind or another. I'm thinking about the African diasporic religion with the law and I, I know very little about this, but those, I don't know whether those are considered gods or whether they're considered to be, you know, powerful spirits that we, we create arrangements with through our own ritual behavior and offerings. But all of those are. Stories that we tell ourselves about the nature of the world. Right? And that's what a cosmology is. Science tells a story about the nature of the world. Just like all those other ones do. The difference is that science uses evidence and analysis and critical thinking to, to support the claims that it makes. Yucca: Mm-hmm well, and one thing about the cosmology is that it seems to often reflect the political and social structures that the people. And I dunno if this is a chicken or egg sort of situation, but that the people are in, right. So if we are looking at Christianity and we're looking at the development of it and what parts of the world it came from and what the political structures were at those time periods. Well, you know, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, the words even have, have carried over, right. People refer to God as the Lord. Right. And this would've, this is coming from a time period where people, you know, we had very defined. Cast system where we had the peasants and the Lord and you know, different names depending on what culture. And I think that that's probably one of the reasons that it has one of the many reasons that that particular religion has been falling out of fashion the recent time is because our political structures are moving from. That there's the, the nobility and the peasantry. I mean, on some levels we have this extreme gap that's happening as well, but we just don't, but there isn't the loyalty to it. Right. We're not loyal to our one percenters. We have very different feeling towards them. But that in the, in the past, there was, there was a reason to try and keep your, the, your peasants or country people. Having a sense of obligation and loyalty to the nobility. Mark: Right. And I think it bears saying that that's not a coincidence. I mean, the religious systems that have been chosen by ruling classes in order to maintain the the. Their power is not an accident. Constantine chose to convert the Roman empire to Christianity. And in the process, he redefined so much of Christianity into an authoritarian religion that you were supposed to submit to. Yucca: Right. Mark: The and at its root. Almost all flavors of Christianity are still that ENT. They, they poit a ENT relationship with the divine or the sacred that we're supposed to bow down. And there's something wrong with us that has to be cleansed. And we have to seek salvation in order to get this stain off of us. All of that works very well if you're the king. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Right. That works really well. If you get to decide who gets the thing that washes off the stain and who doesn't and if you're collecting the taxes, right? Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: So a symbiotic relationship between between religion and political power has existed in almost all places at almost all times. I mean, I would say the same thing about Buddhism. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Because in the case of Buddhism, the entire belief is life is suffering. Learn these mental techniques so that you can suffer less. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: That's great. If you live in a completely authoritarian, totalitarian state, it it's not, you know, stand up and fight. Instead, it's sit quietly and learn these techniques that will help you not to suffer under this, you know, deeply unfair and oppressive system. Now in modern times many Buddhist, especially in the west have adopted strongly political positions and they advocate that out of their values of things like loving kindness. And that's great. But when we look at the history of where it came from, I think it's fair to say that once again, it was a choice that worked really well for the ruling class. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Paganism is very different than that. Paganism is religion with agency. We don't see ourselves as. Sinful or inherently damaged. We don't see ourselves as needing absolution of some kind of sin. Yucca: Right. Mark: We see ourselves as beautiful and luminous and flawed and problematic, and everybody has their trauma and damage that they work to recover from. And we all work to lift one another up as best we can. In order to achieve the, the actualization of ourselves as individuals and as a community. Yucca: right. And we see ourselves as natural and part of this world. Mark: Yes. And this world, is it for us, not an afterlife that you're trying to qualify for, or that you're afraid of. You know, there's, there's none of that extortionary model going on there. Some pagans do believe in some kind of an afterlife, but not to the extent that they're willing to you know, Have a miserable life in this life so that they can go to VHA that that's that's. Yucca: Right. Mark: That's just not the way that we approach these things. And I, I have to say just as a caveat, I'm generalizing about pagans. Now. It's very hard to generalize about pagans. There's probably somebody out there who's suffering for Valhalla, just, just to make me wrong. But generally speaking, what I'm saying here in my experience is what's true. Yucca: That reflects my experience as well. Yeah. So we're making some big, big generalizations. That's it seems to be the general case. Mark: So we really need to talk about this sin thing. It is profound. How impactful and damaging it is to people who live in societies that are dominated by the idea that people need some kind of spiritual washing in order to be okay. Can be I mean, And it permeates so much of our society. I mean, I, I think about Jewish mother jokes. Right. And they're all around guilt and you know, sense of, you know, I'll just sit here in the dark. Well, and then I'm gonna feel guilty because I wasn't sufficiently kind to my mother. Right. Idea that we should be living with guilt and shame and that our bodies are dirty and that sex is dirty. And all of those things, we are just so awash in that, that we can't even imagine a society that where it isn't. So even for those of us that are living our lives, Explicitly not to be that way. We are still inside ourselves, struggling with some of that same shame, some of that same body consciousness, because we were steeped in it, growing up in this culture. Yucca: Right. Yeah. Even, even coming from families that were pagan families or were atheists, right. It's just all around us. Right. Mark: right. Yucca: I mean, I can tell you as a child, how many times I heard someone go, Ew, that's so wrong. Right. That's just wrong. Right. Just about normal, you know, human things, right. Or, you know, you showed your shoulder. Oh, no Mark: Oh no. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Oh God. Yeah. And just because of, I mean, I was raised in an atheist household but. An extremely Sort of sexually phobic household, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: shameful. I mean, I never even got the talk, right. A, a book appeared on the coffee table for a week and then disappeared. And apparently that was supposed to tell me about sex, but I never read the book, so I kinda missed out on all that. I had to figure it out later. But yeah, you know, lots of shame, lots of just the usual kind of Protestant stuff. So that's one way that the pagan approach and particularly the non theist pagan approach really differs from these predominant religious movements that dominate. Our society. Yucca: Right. Is that we're choosing to not use that framework. Right. Although it's something that we have to be conscious about because we're surrounded by it. We are, you know, we, we, it's part of the history that so much, so many of us come from that we can often fall back on it without even realizing that that's what we're doing. Mark: right. And there can be added dangers because if you're sex positive, for example, but you haven't really got your mind around consent. Yucca: mm-hmm, Mark: And you still haven't figured out that you're still steeped in patriarchy. Well, then you become an abuser, right? You become someone who's who assaults people. So it's really important for us to internalize all of these things as a package, you know, recognizing the ways that things are distorted and rendered unfair and iJust. In our culture so that we can be conscious about how we conduct ourselves, even in the context of being sex positive. Yucca: Right. Mark: This I think is, can be said to be. The big failing of the sort of sex free for all of the late sixties, early seventies. It was still very male dominated and the whole idea of consent culture hadn't really rolled around yet. Yucca: Right. Mark: So there were a lot of women who ended up having experiences that they did not want to have. And Hopefully, at least we in the pagan community have learned since then. I've been encouraged to see so much emphasis on consent and and integrity around relation relationships and sexuality in the pagan community. Yucca: Yeah. You know, that was something that I was so delighted to see at the sun tree retreat where consent, and I'm not even talking about sexual consent. I don't know. Maybe people were doing that. I didn't wasn't involved in any of that, but, but it just feel like may people, it was just so normalized where people, you know, asked permission to give a hug. Right. And I had my, my. My oldest child with me there, and nobody touched her without her permission. I watched over and over again, and that's not something that happens in our normal culture. People just think that they can touch a kid without the kid's permission. They might ask me as the parent for my permission, which is somewhat bizarre to me that. I mean, I appreciate asking the parent, but it's actually the kid who it's their body. Right. Whether you can, you know, pick them up or hug them or hold their hand, or, you know, you ask the kid. And that was something that, that just was so normalized at the sun tree retreat was just delightful to be around like, oh, I just feel so safe with all of these people. Like everybody is really respectful of that. And it was just, and it wasn't awkward, right. Because the first time we try and start making changes in a culture, it feels weird and awkward, Mark: It does. Yucca: right. To be like to stop and ask before you touch somebody, if it's okay to do so. But, but we've made that not awkward. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, that was lovely. I, I really appreciated that too. You, you touch on a subject that I think is another major difference between the mainstream religious traditions and. Hours, which is the possessory model Yucca: Right. Mark: because in UN under patriarchal religion, children are possessions and women are possessions of men. Yucca: yeah. Mark: And I mean, that's just all very awful, but in my opinion, but that's. The way it rolls and that possessory model extends to the entire rest of the world where life becomes something where of wealth or goods or particular desired things becomes the purpose of living and. And worst of all, in my opinion, land ownership, Yucca: Hm. Mark: I, I have a real problem with the idea of land ownership. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: I, I don't think a human should own anything that outlives that that's, that's going to be around for billions of years after they're gone. And I know that that's the model that we have and, you know, that's how capitalism works. Everything is a possession. Everything is a commodity to be bought, but in my own experience if land is in the commons and we're all responsible for taking care of it, and we have an, an internalized reciprocal relationship with the earth, I think we just end up in a much better. World, Yucca: Hmm. Mark: but of course that's just a thought experiment on my part. They were, they were doing it here in the Americas before settlers got here. But Yucca: It depends on which group, but yeah, right there was, there were, there were and are many, many different tribes. Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a whole nother topic. That'd be interesting. There'd be a lot to, to sort out with that.  Mark: I mean, it's, it's tough because you have well-intentioned land stewards. Right. And you, you want them to be able to be the people that are managing lands because they're doing it well. Right. Or at least they're trying to be doing it well, like the national park service which sometimes does it well, and sometimes does it not so well, but it's Yucca: we're private folks. Right? Right. Like I work with a lot. I mean, myself, I'm a landowner and I have a lot of, and I work with other landowners and in working on restoring our ecosystems and, you know,  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: there's also, there's a. There's also a, a risk when things are sometimes what everybody is doing, may not always be the wisest thing to be. Mark: Yeah, fair enough. Yucca: There's, you know, there's certainly certain, you know, health or so-called health and political movements that are happening right now in certain places and not in others. And some that I look at and I go, whew, I. I think you're off. I think you're really off. I don't think that that's what the sciences is that there really isn't good evidence for that. I think the science is being misrepresented and yet things are being forced in one way or another. The part of the world that I'm from. We, we have had traditions here for hundreds of years and had people come in with very strong ideas about what we should be doing with public lands and not, and, you know, killed very old traditions. Right. You've got people coming in and thinking that that you shouldn't be that cattle on the land is bad. Just universally, no nuance there. Right. And then peop and then the people who've been doing it for hundreds of years, can't do it anymore. And their, you know, their livelihoods and their culture and their traditions have just been taken away because people came in and who were outsiders? Frankly, right. They come in from Northern California and from all these other places and go, you're doing our way now. And then they split anyways, they're gone. Most of the people who made those who made those rules, aren't even here and leave the, the destruction in, in their wake. So I, I hear on the one hand what you're saying that I think that it's a, that it's a very tricky matter, Mark: Well, I agree. I agree. And it's always. Once again, you know, the, the other big aspect of the over culture, other than the religious overlay and all the sort of value pieces is capitalism. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: And it's very hard for us to imagine any other system than capitalism because we're steeped in that too. And it's a fair question. Well, if you're not gonna have capitalism, what are you gonna have instead? Yucca: and how are you gonna transition there Mark: Right. And how are you gonna get there? And that's, it's a legitimate question and I don't claim to have all the answers to that. What I know is that, you know, especially here, you know, watching what happens here in California, where we're so populated, you know, every, every. Get rich, quick developer wants to grab parcels on the edge of cities so that they can throw up some kind of quick, make a buck project and then head out of town. They're not gonna own it. They're just gonna throw it up and sell it. And, you know, we lose a lot of farmland that way. We have whole huge sprawling cities built on top of some of the finest farmland in the world. Yucca: Right. Mark: So. I don't know. Yeah. Yucca: a pretty impressive fault line too. Mark: Yes. Yucca: I might not be the, just putting that out there might might be maybe someplace that you might wanna reevaluate where you're putting large population centers. That's another question looking at well then where, where do you put large populations that Mark: Well, you D well, you don't put 'em somewhere where you don't have any water. That's that is where I would start. Yucca: that's a, and that's gonna be a problem in the area. We are look at it with the developments going up here and going, but there isn't you're you literally will not have water in 15 years. Like, what are you doing? Right. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: So, Mark: Yeah. We're gonna see suburban ghost towns. I'm sure. In places that just simply can no longer serve water to the, the people that they're under contract to. Okay. But we're, we're a. Yucca: off the field. Yeah. And, and I should say, I did mention, you know, I. I actually do level folks in Northern California, but that was, that is one of the specific areas where we've had issues, where people come from a very different cultural area, very different attitudes, access to resource and money. And then, you know, come here, make a bunch of changes and then split to the next new, cool place to be in. And. Know, those of us who were just kinda left behind, like, oh, thanks. that? Okay. You just you know, tripled our property taxes and priced out of our own town and destroyed our livelihood stake. So yeah. Mark: Let's go back to religion. Yucca: Religion. But the, the attitude, some of those attitudes, I think. They come out of our, what we've been talking about with the religious cosmology and the political systems, which informed those cosmologies Mark: Yes. Yes. I really think that's so, the, the very concept of democracy struck right at the heart of the domination by Christianity of the west. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: Um, the, because of course the. The core principle of political rulership in Europe anyway, was the divine right of Kings, which was a declaration that was made by first the Catholic church. And then, you know, church of England and whoever that the Yucca: Jesus said give onto Caesar. Is that where they were getting it from? Mark: I have no idea, honestly, I don't, I don't know where it comes from, but there was some kind of I rationalization and that, that if your king is cuz God wants you to be king and therefore the structure of our society unfair and oppressive as it may be is God's will. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And the idea of democracy really strikes. The, the foundations of that. And as problematic as the founders of the United States were in so many ways and as Yucca: Even for their own time period at many boy. Mark: yes. In, in some cases, even for their own time period nonetheless. What they chose to do in setting up the United States was really very radical at the time. Now it it's not radical anymore. It needs a refurbish, but at the time and of course it was an inspiration for the French revolution. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: Which was also seeking to overthrow specifically the domination of not only the royalty, but of the clergy class the, they, they very much called out the churches as being culpable in the oppression of the people. Yucca: Yeah, it's a really interesting time, period. Mark: Very. Yucca: I mean, I think most time periods are interesting, but there's, there was so much change. Happening in the Western world at that point. Mark: Yes. Yes. And unfortunately what ended up happening was that they ended up with a dictator, but eventually they became a democracy and now Francis in reasonably good shape overall in terms of actually having a functioning democracy, of course, they've got a weird fascist part of their country that wants to vote. Marine Lappen. But other than that, but I, I digress. I digress, Yucca: gone on one tangent already. Mark: right. Let's okay. Let's leave it there. So when we talk about paganism, really what we're talking about is a, a radically different way of understanding ourselves, our relationship to the world, our relationship to our society around us and how. We envision an ideal world, all of those things. And it took me a lot of years to kind of soak up all of those things because you know, a lot of it, it's not like there's a book, there's no secret text in paganism. That'll just tell you, well, you know, here it is, this is, this is how we understand the world. And that's part of the reason why. You know, it's good for us to do a podcast like this to sort of spell out, you know, this is how we have come to understand living as pagans in the United States confronted with the issues that all of us confront. Yucca: Right. Well, and we should, at this point, say we do not speak for all naturalistic pagans. We don't speak for all athe pagans. We're, you know, We can talk about general themes that we see in most people or most atheopagan. But, but again, we're two people, right? And that's a, that's another big difference is, you know, we're mark. You're not the, you're not the Pope of, of atheopagan. Right. Mark: I'm the Nope of atheism  Yucca: And, you know, there is a, there is a atheopagan society council. And, but again, we don't have the that's that's like you were saying, those are positions of service, right? That's that's, those are jobs that we're doing to try and help the community. Not because we're bossing and making decisions for everybody else. Mark: And that's a part of the core values of paganism is that we value diversity. And in valuing diversity, that means that we have to acknowledge that we're not all going to get into lockstep in March. Now hopefully we can agree about some common ideas and you know, proceed from there in order to help improve our world and to have good lives. But we also have to acknowledge that there are gonna be people on the fringes that disagree with us about core stuff. And they're still pagans. Yucca: Yep. Mark: They're still, you know, they're still doing rituals and maybe they're worshiping gods or, you know, observing the wheel of the year, whatever it is. You know, we're not, we're not trying to gate keep people who don't fit our model. Yucca: Yeah, well, and there's, there's a good cautionary tale about being in lockstep. There's a bridge in R. Which is a city in Southern Spain, and it has a very famous, beautiful bridge. And it's the stone bridge. It's amazing. It goes across this huge Gorge, but it's the second bridge that was built because the first bridge that was built, they went across, there was a procession. I think it was Simon. And they, the bridge collapsed because everybody was in step when they went across the bridge Mark: So they hit the residence frequency of the bridge Yucca: it collapsed. Yeah. Mark: it to death. Yucca: Yeah. And so when they rebuilt the bridge, they built the most overdone, its beautiful stone bridge. It's huge. Really look it up. It's just amazing. But Mark: It's gorgeous. Yucca: okay. Yeah, I lived there for a year. So walked across that bridge, you know, every day just stunning, but yeah, the first bridge came down and that's not, you know, there's warnings about other bridges. They tell you don't do that. When you go across, you know, you have to, don't be in step. Mark: The Romans learned this they, they had outstanding orders that their legions had to break step to cross bridges. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and it's still a military thing today. You know, if you're gonna cross a bridge, you do not March across because you never know if you're gonna hit the wrong frequency and knock your bridge down. Yucca: So, bring that back as a metaphor of, you know, I think it's probably a pretty good thing that we aren't all in step with each other because we could, you know, we could hit that wrong frequency. So Mark: Yep. Yep. So what else did we have on our, on our Yucca: You know, Mark: of things to talk about? Yucca: we had to put as a category to talk about specifically how we differ from Christianity. But I think we've really been covering that. We kind of woven that in. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention specifically about that? Mark: Not, not that I can think of except insofar as acknowledging religious trauma. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: A lot of people arrive in both atheist spaces and in pagan spaces, having really been wounded by their experience with mainstream religions. Because they've been told that they're valueless and that they're tarnished and that they're That, that their only value is as a servant of God and that they're sinful and all those things. And in many cases, and particularly people that are marginalized you know, who, who can suffer greatly at the hands of mainstream religion. And I just feel like. It's important for us in the pagan community to acknowledge that this is happening and to do what we can to provide resources for people so that they can heal. When I've attended atheist conferences, what I've seen is a lot of angry people who just wanna argue against religion Yucca: Right, Mark: and, you know, having never been. A Christian or, you know, a member of any of those religions. I don't have that injury. And so my question is always, okay, well, so we're atheist now. What, Yucca: right. Mark: how do we live? How do we be happy? What's important. What, you know, what do we do? Yucca: Right. Mark: So, I really encourage our listeners. If you feel like that woundedness describes your situation, there are organizations and we can put a link in the show notes for people who are recovering from religion to get help and you know, really welcome you to our communities, if you choose to be in them. And Hope that you will find yourself feeling better about that stuff soon and able to move on into a better part of your life. Yucca: Right. Well, and that's also something to emphasize that we don't believe. What we do is necessarily the best fit for everybody, right? We're not worried about converting anyone. You know, we wanna be welcome welcoming and inclusive and invite, but certainly we have no interest in trying to go and. Make you believe the way we do or change your opinion on this or any, you know, this is, you know, this is by, this is a at will thing that we're doing, right. You're invited to join us and we'll love if you do, but if you don't, that's fine. Right? Mark: As, as, as people have sometimes said, if you don't like it, you can't have any Yucca: And so, well, This has been a good conversation. Mark: Yeah, I think so too. Thank you, Yucca. I really enjoyed kicking this around with you and I imagine we'll get some interesting feedback as always you can reach us@thewonderpodcastcuesatgmail.com and thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week. Yucca: By everyone.    .

Today I had the opportunity to speak with "The Land Geek". Fascinating conversation. He's got over, well over four and a half million downloads on his podcast. He's got some interesting ideas and insights on investing with land that the returns higher than normal, I guess normal, what's normal, higher than, you know, eight 10% return, if you will, returns on these investments. So I'm very excited to have Mark here with me today. Thanks for joining us, we learn the secrets from the land geek. Everybody welcome to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. So I have been chasing this person for some time. He is super busy and has an amazing profile. I hope you take the opportunity to look into what he's done. We're going to be having conversation today with Mark, Oh man, Mark. I didn't even ask at a time. Podolski! Mark Perfect pronunciation. Grant Did I say that? Okay. All right. Very good. Mark. Welcome. Thank you for being here today. I appreciate it. Mark Grant Larsen, an honor. Privilege. Thank you. Grant You know, we found out that we are not too far from each other geographically, which is a real treat. There's some neat, neat things about the part of the country we live in for sure. Mark Absolutely. We've lost our complaining privileges living in Scottsdale, Arizona. Grant That's right. That's right. That's right. Even when it gets a little hot. I've learned to quit Quit complaining about it's not a Houston hot right. Mark Houston hot. It's 80 degrees in the pool.  Grant Yeah, that's. That's right. It's fixable with the pool. That's right, right. Okay, so the land geek, you are known as the land geek, you've done a great job getting your name out there as land geek, not only getting your name out there, but proving a framework. But we'll get to the framework here in a moment. Because what you've done is pretty unique compared to other real estate investing strategies that are out there, of which I actually participate in some of those others, right, but I won't get to that yet. So I'm interested to learn more about what you do here. But let's back up. You were doing what what got you started to say I'm gonna go after land investments in this way. Mark So if we rewind the tape now, to 2000 I was a miserable micromanaged. 45 minute commute to work and back investment banker specializing in mergers and acquisitions with private equity groups. And grant it got so bad for me. I wouldn't get the Sunday blues, anticipating Monday coming around. I'd get the Friday blues, anticipating the weekend going by really fast. And having to be back at work. On Monday. I was pretty much yeah, really blue. So I first hired this guy, and he's telling me that as a side hustle, he's going to tax deed auctions. He's buying raw land, pennies on the dollar. He's flipping them online, and he's making a 300% return on his money. Grant. I'm looking at companies all day long. And a great company great has 15% EBIT on margins are free cash flow, average company's 10%. And I'm looking at companies all day long, less than 10%. So of course, I don't believe them. And I've got three grand saved up for car repairs. I go to New Mexico with them. I do exactly what he tells me to do. I buy 10 Half Acre parcels and average price of $300 each. I flipped them online. And they all sell for an average price of $1,200 each. It worked. So I went to another auction and in Arizona, where we live. And again, this is 2000 There's no one in the room. I'm buying up lots of acreage or nothing. And I sell all that property. You know that what auction I made over $90,000 So I go to my wife. She's pregnant at the time. I said Honey, I'm going to quit My job and become a full time lead investor. And she said, Absolutely not. Yeah. Grant What do you say? And what are you doing on? Mark Yeah. So it took 18 months for the land investing income to exceed the investment banking income. And then I quit. I've been doing it full time ever since. And I absolutely love it. Grant That's incredible. So you just sort of stumbled into it, someone happened to say, they'd already sort of figured this out. Now, it sounds like what you did with that is after you've done this for a while, you've created a system out of this, then is that right? Mark Yeah, I mean, after a while, you start picking up things, and you start seeing, okay, well, how do I make this job, myself. And, really, my whole philosophy is, I can always make more money, I can't get more time. And so we want to use three levers to scale and grow a business, other people's time, software and automation, and other people's money. And so once I combined all three of those, I was really able to grow and work really about 30 minutes a week, in my business. Grant What, 30 minutes, you're at a point now where you work 30 minutes a week on your business? In the business? Yeah, that's amazing. Wow. But it took that scaling, right, took that automation to figure it out the team around you to help take care of certain aspects of it took all of those pieces, as well as other people's money. That's interesting. That took five years. Oh, that was gonna ask you so five years to get to that point, learn the lessons, learn the business processes that you should automate, and so forth. Right? Mark Well, five years just to start getting myself out of business, probably another five years, to get to my point where I can work 30 minutes, 30 minutes in the business, rarely, I'm just meeting with my Acquisition Manager. And we're looking at the numbers and saying how many deals are pending? How many offers went out? How many deals will be closed? How can I support you? Grant So when it comes to finding these opportunities is the auctions is that your main input, or source or how well find these. Mark So Grant, I'm going to walk you exactly through how I do it. So you live, I'm gonna use these as a case study. You're in Scottsdale, Arizona, but let's assume that you own five acres of raw land in Texas, and you owe $200 in back taxes. So essentially, you're advertising two important things.  Number one, you have no emotional attachment to the raw land, you're in Arizona, the properties and taxes in Texas.  And number two, you're distressed financially in some weird way. Because we don't pay for things like our property taxes, we don't value them in the same way. As resolved, county treasurer, keeps sending me notices saying, Grant, if you don't pay your property taxes, you're going to lose that five acre parcel, tax deed or tax lien investor. So all I'm gonna do is look at the comparable sales on your five acre parcel for the last 12 to 18 months, I'm gonna take the lowest comparable sale, let's say $10,000 and divide by four. And that's gonna give you a Warren Buffett would call a 300% margin of safety. So I'm gonna send you an actual offer on your five acre parcel for $2,500. Now you accept it. Why? Because for you $2,500 is better than nothing. In reality, three to 5% of people accept my quote unquote, top dollar offer. But now that you've accepted it, I have to go through due diligence or in depth research. I have to confirm you still own the property. I have to confirm back taxes are only $200 I have to make sure there's been no breaks in the chain of title. There's no liens or encumbrances. And because it's only $2,500 investment, I outsourced to my team in the Philippines, connected to an American Title Company. It cost about $11. I was investing $5,000 or more, I wouldn't take any title risk.  You have to close traditionally through a title company. But since this is a smaller deal, everything checks out. And now I'm going to sell your five acre parcel 30 days or less and make a cash flow. So I have a built in best buyer grant. Do you know who it is? Who is the neighbors, the neighbors? So I'm going to send out neighbor letters saying hey, here's your opportunity. Protect your privacy. Protect your views. Know your neighbor. So oftentimes the neighbors will buy now if the neighbors pass a gun to my buyers list, if they pass. A good little website you may have heard of, it's called Craigslist is the 15th most trafficked website United States. I'll go to one I know you've heard of called meta, or Facebook, buy sell groups in the marketplace, and then I'll go to the lands land moto.com lands of america.com land and farm.com land flip.com Land hub.com These are platforms where people buy and sell raw land. But the way that I'm going to do it is the secret. I'm going to make it irresistible for my next buyer. All I'm going to ask for is a $2,500 downpayment, to control this five acre parcel, and then I'll make it a car payment, let's say 297 a month, for the next 84 months at 9% interest. So it's a one time sale, I'll get my money out on the down payment. I could go six to 10 months out. And now I'm getting a passive income of 297 a month, next 84 months. No renters. No rehabs, no renovations, no rodents. And because I'm not dealing with a tenant, I'm exempt from Dodd Frank RESPA. And the SAFE Act, all this owners real estate legislation. So grant, it's a simple game, can I create enough land notes where my passive income exceeds my fixed expenses? And now working?  Grant Because I want to not because I have to guess you have to? So on those numbers, then Mark, when you look at that, and what's the percentage of those that carry all the way through, you know, you're obviously I love, I love how you have the profile for that best buyer, how you create that, that passive income, what sort of risks does that put on your shoulders, where there's potential for them not following through on the cash flow, any issues there? Mark We don't mind it, because we use a land contract. And a land contract means that we can we still own the underlying asset, while they make payments. If they default, they have 30 days to cure their default. If they don't, we keep the down payment, we keep the monthly payments, our cost basis goes lower, we resell that property, we get a new down payment, we get new monthly payments, and extends out a return on investment is... Grant Oh, that's awesome.  Mark So I've been investing my wife and I invest in real estate, but it's it's on. It's with the tenant model, right? It's, you know, creating sort of the cash flow on that site. And it has some of the challenges and headaches you're talking about. Right? It's I deal with property management organizations, I deal with tenants that aren't following through blah, blah, blah, blah, all that. And so this is appealing to me to be able to say, hey, you know, I don't have to worry about about that.  Grant Is there a return that you felt like is higher taking this strategy than taking that sort of tenant based model? Mark Well, our average return on cash is 300%. And on terms, it's 1,000%. Grant That's crazy. Because we you know, typically fight for eight to 10 or 15%, right? In this in this renter model. So that's, that's fascinating, fascinating approach. So a couple things here. The average hold time. So you'd mentioned 30 days, are you literally flipping these in a 30 day timeframe? Is that the average? Mark Yeah, that's average. Now, if it's more than 30 days, something has to change. Maybe we have to raise the downpayment, maybe people think it's too good to be true. Maybe we have to lower the downpayment, maybe we have to raise the price, lower the price, change the interest rate, change the terms, something needs to change, maybe it's as simple as the headline is conducting. So that's our litmus test for what's wrong with our app. Why did that? Why is this not selling 30 days? Grant What's the what's the benefit of turning it into that passive cash flow as opposed to just flipping and taking the cash right now all of it out of the deal and walking away with that in your pocket? Mark Well, cash is a problem, right? Because now I've got to do it all over again. And I've just created a really hard job for myself. So I'd rather buy the asset one time and hold it for as long as I can and have a cash flow rather than flip a tax. Hopefully, I get another deal flip, pay tax, the market could turn on me. Right? I've been I've overpaid and I'm stuck with an asset. Grant Yep, makes makes total sense. So I noticed on your on your on your YouTube channel here. I noticed on there you you've been creating quite a nice playlist for a long time describing some of the challenges the hurdles the things people might deal with some tips and techniques around that. You've been publishing for quite a while on this. If someone were to get started on your YouTube channel itself, you've got this nice entry YouTube video right there passive income without headaches explained. I love that as your entry one. I watched that and you walk through much of the framework that you just described here today, what would be some of the hurdles that you think people will run into? Or that you've seen people run into where, where this doesn't work? Mark Well, you know, the biggest hurdle I think, for people who get started is they think, can I do this in my backyard? Well, if you live in San Francisco, no, no one's gonna sell you an infill lot. 25 cents on the dollar, they're gonna go the biggest, baddest land broker in town. If you live in Manhattan, same thing. So we're looking at properties an hour to three hours from the nearest town. And also, there's 3007 us counties like where do you start? So if I live in Iowa, let's face it, nobody wakes up next boy, I'd like to buy some land today in Iowa, unless you live in Iowa. So to get your biggest buyer pool, you want to be the southwest, little bit the Northwest, California and Florida. These are the sunshine states. These are fast growing states. And there is just a plethora of inexpensive raw land. Grant Okay. All right. That's fascinating. The other thing that I think you wrote your book was in 2017, did I get the date? Right? I think 2018 and 2018. Okay, dirt rich, dirt Ranch is out on Amazon did a review of that awesome book. Tell us about that? What does that cover? Mark So Dirt Rich gives you the basics of how to buy and sell raw land, it also tells my story. So you don't make the same mistakes. I did. And then Durbridge two is coming out very soon. The next plot how to scale your business. Grant I love that the next plot, there's a play on words right there for sure. You're also out there on medium.com. I see you being referenced and talked about there. As well as you got your website, check that out as well land geek, the land geek.com, right, the Land Rover COMM And I'm assuming that is I reviewed that what I noticed about what you have here is this is where people can come to your organization, if I understand it, right and say, hey, I want to get trained in this. I want to get skilled and how to create my own business. I'm assuming this is where you take your years and years of expertise. And you condense that into a program, if you will, that take all the lessons learned rather than take 10 years to learn it. You'll learn it and you know, how long, what is sort of the up ramp for people in terms of amount of time and effort? Mark I mean, can really get going in about 16 weeks. Okay. Yeah. Grant That's, that's amazing. It's amazing. Have you do you participate in any sort of real estate investing other than raw land? Mark No, because I don't have an advantage in any other real estate niche other than raw land. So I'm a inch wide, and a mile deep. So and no one can really get my returns, it would be nice to get depreciation because land lasts forever. But that being said, I don't have to deal with the depreciation like there is depreciation for reason I don't have to deal with any physical structures. So I like the headache free piece of it. And I got it 90% automated with software and expensive virtual assistants. Grant That's incredible. So tell me about your, your best type of client that would come to you and say, hey, I want to participate in building passive income with your program. What does that look like? Who do you know?  Mark You gotta have a burning desire to change your life? Right? You don't have to grit. So anything we're doing in life is inherently hard. And so it's kind of like hockey, right? People who play hockey, really love hockey, because they love it enough to get their teeth knocked out and get back up. It's the same thing in business. You have to love what you're doing enough to get knocked down and get back up. And so if you have a burning desire, give me that more than somebody who has cash. So I always say commitment over cash. It's, that's really all it takes. Grant How much cash did you have when you got started? I mean, it wasn't a ton. Right? Mark I start with $3,000. My buddy Durant's are $800. We think that, you know, 5000 is a is a really easy number. We have some clients who start with $500.  Grant So you really don't need a whole lot of cash is needed that commitment or that grip that that desire to move forward with it. Okay, very good. So, any other tips that you'd want to share with our listeners on on doing this? Mark Well, if I were the listener, I would be thinking, well, Grant. It's so great. Why is Marc teaching it? Grant That's gone through my mind. I mean, You're talking Yeah. 300% To 1,000% return. Mark Right, right. So to answer the question, because when I started teaching that my wife asked me the same questions like, aren't you going to create your own competition? And it's a very valid question. So I started putting on my investment banker hat. And what's the first thing, investment banker looks at? How big is the market, and there are billions of acres of raw land available in the United States. And there is literally do you couldn't think of a more boring niche, like you could go on HGTV or the DIY Network and think, Oh, I'm gonna watch flip this land. The before pictures are all in the after pictures are all in. Plus, there's no hedge funds, there's no private equity groups. So you meet a million people can be in this niche, will all run out of money, before we run out of deal flow. Grant Plenty of opportunity for sure. So is some of this sort of altruistic in terms of you know, you want to give back, you want to see others sort of experience some of the same benefits you have is, is there a component to that that's driven yet to create these systems? Mark I mean, that really is my, my purpose, honestly, because, you know, buying and selling land is great. It's helped five people, really, my family. Yeah, that being said, nobody ever bought a piece of land for me, you know, called me and said, Mark, you changed my life with this land investment, but being able to help people retire their spouses, so they could spend more time with their children, being able to have people replace their income, and really get out of what I call so economic dependency, which means that they're personally not working. They're not making any money, so that they can move up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, into self actualization, and solve not just their money problems, but their time problems, to explore their highest purpose in life. That has been the most gratifying thing for me, professionally. And I absolutely love waking up to that idea every day. Grant This is the "why" of your journey. Right there. That last sentence, isn't it? Yeah, it's helping them to get out of that solo economic dependency for sure. You had mentioned at one point, or I saw when I was doing some reviews on you, five reasons you should be creative, Pat, you should be creating passive income in raw land. What are those five reasons? Mark The first reason is, it's just so simple. All you got is a piece of land and a buyer and a seller. So you know, juxtapose that to like, say multifamily, where you've got to raise millions of dollars, you have to get private capital, you have to get investors, you could spend a million dollars just on due diligence alone. So it's just a much simpler way to go. The other issue is there's just no headaches, nobody's calling you up at three in the morning saying my land is leaking. So you get to go to bed every night, knowing that you don't have to deal with the typical headaches of real estate, tenants, termites, toilets, that kind of thing. So you know, another reason would be that it cash flows. So why not have this passive income come in, and get total freedom in life. So you can work when you want, where you want, and with whom you want. I think another reason is just that there's no limit to it. So you can grow as big or, you know, you can get to a point where you kind of like the Mexican fishermen, you have enough type of thing. And then I just think the other reason, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. And it's not building another job for you, yourself if you just automate it. And I think that's great. Grant Yeah, yeah, that is great. It's interesting that you found this niche. I love how you described it. It's narrow and yet very deep, you become very specialized in this. That's awesome. Mark. Thanks for taking the time with us today. Any final comments or tips you want to share with our listeners? Mark I always love this quote from Zig Ziglar. If you'll do for the next three to five years, what other people won't do, you'll be able to do for the rest of your life. What other people can't do. Grant That's a very enabling. I love that for sure. Gosh, that's awesome. Mark. Thanks for taking the time, "The Land Geek". I appreciate you doing this. And everyone thanks for listening to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. And until next time, check out thelandgeek.com  

Today I had the opportunity to speak with "The Land Geek". Fascinating conversation. He's got over, well over four and a half million downloads on his podcast. He's got some interesting ideas and insights on investing with land that the returns higher than normal, I guess normal, what's normal, higher than, you know, eight 10% return, if you will, returns on these investments. So I'm very excited to have Mark here with me today. Thanks for joining us, we learn the secrets from the land geek. Everybody welcome to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. So I have been chasing this person for some time. He is super busy and has an amazing profile. I hope you take the opportunity to look into what he's done. We're going to be having conversation today with Mark, Oh man, Mark. I didn't even ask at a time. Podolski! Mark Perfect pronunciation. Grant Did I say that? Okay. All right. Very good. Mark. Welcome. Thank you for being here today. I appreciate it. Mark Grant Larsen, an honor. Privilege. Thank you. Grant You know, we found out that we are not too far from each other geographically, which is a real treat. There's some neat, neat things about the part of the country we live in for sure. Mark Absolutely. We've lost our complaining privileges living in Scottsdale, Arizona. Grant That's right. That's right. That's right. Even when it gets a little hot. I've learned to quit Quit complaining about it's not a Houston hot right. Mark Houston hot. It's 80 degrees in the pool.  Grant Yeah, that's. That's right. It's fixable with the pool. That's right, right. Okay, so the land geek, you are known as the land geek, you've done a great job getting your name out there as land geek, not only getting your name out there, but proving a framework. But we'll get to the framework here in a moment. Because what you've done is pretty unique compared to other real estate investing strategies that are out there, of which I actually participate in some of those others, right, but I won't get to that yet. So I'm interested to learn more about what you do here. But let's back up. You were doing what what got you started to say I'm gonna go after land investments in this way. Mark So if we rewind the tape now, to 2000 I was a miserable micromanaged. 45 minute commute to work and back investment banker specializing in mergers and acquisitions with private equity groups. And grant it got so bad for me. I wouldn't get the Sunday blues, anticipating Monday coming around. I'd get the Friday blues, anticipating the weekend going by really fast. And having to be back at work. On Monday. I was pretty much yeah, really blue. So I first hired this guy, and he's telling me that as a side hustle, he's going to tax deed auctions. He's buying raw land, pennies on the dollar. He's flipping them online, and he's making a 300% return on his money. Grant. I'm looking at companies all day long. And a great company great has 15% EBIT on margins are free cash flow, average company's 10%. And I'm looking at companies all day long, less than 10%. So of course, I don't believe them. And I've got three grand saved up for car repairs. I go to New Mexico with them. I do exactly what he tells me to do. I buy 10 Half Acre parcels and average price of $300 each. I flipped them online. And they all sell for an average price of $1,200 each. It worked. So I went to another auction and in Arizona, where we live. And again, this is 2000 There's no one in the room. I'm buying up lots of acreage or nothing. And I sell all that property. You know that what auction I made over $90,000 So I go to my wife. She's pregnant at the time. I said Honey, I'm going to quit My job and become a full time lead investor. And she said, Absolutely not. Yeah. Grant What do you say? And what are you doing on? Mark Yeah. So it took 18 months for the land investing income to exceed the investment banking income. And then I quit. I've been doing it full time ever since. And I absolutely love it. Grant That's incredible. So you just sort of stumbled into it, someone happened to say, they'd already sort of figured this out. Now, it sounds like what you did with that is after you've done this for a while, you've created a system out of this, then is that right? Mark Yeah, I mean, after a while, you start picking up things, and you start seeing, okay, well, how do I make this job, myself. And, really, my whole philosophy is, I can always make more money, I can't get more time. And so we want to use three levers to scale and grow a business, other people's time, software and automation, and other people's money. And so once I combined all three of those, I was really able to grow and work really about 30 minutes a week, in my business. Grant What, 30 minutes, you're at a point now where you work 30 minutes a week on your business? In the business? Yeah, that's amazing. Wow. But it took that scaling, right, took that automation to figure it out the team around you to help take care of certain aspects of it took all of those pieces, as well as other people's money. That's interesting. That took five years. Oh, that was gonna ask you so five years to get to that point, learn the lessons, learn the business processes that you should automate, and so forth. Right? Mark Well, five years just to start getting myself out of business, probably another five years, to get to my point where I can work 30 minutes, 30 minutes in the business, rarely, I'm just meeting with my Acquisition Manager. And we're looking at the numbers and saying how many deals are pending? How many offers went out? How many deals will be closed? How can I support you? Grant So when it comes to finding these opportunities is the auctions is that your main input, or source or how well find these. Mark So Grant, I'm going to walk you exactly through how I do it. So you live, I'm gonna use these as a case study. You're in Scottsdale, Arizona, but let's assume that you own five acres of raw land in Texas, and you owe $200 in back taxes. So essentially, you're advertising two important things.  Number one, you have no emotional attachment to the raw land, you're in Arizona, the properties and taxes in Texas.  And number two, you're distressed financially in some weird way. Because we don't pay for things like our property taxes, we don't value them in the same way. As resolved, county treasurer, keeps sending me notices saying, Grant, if you don't pay your property taxes, you're going to lose that five acre parcel, tax deed or tax lien investor. So all I'm gonna do is look at the comparable sales on your five acre parcel for the last 12 to 18 months, I'm gonna take the lowest comparable sale, let's say $10,000 and divide by four. And that's gonna give you a Warren Buffett would call a 300% margin of safety. So I'm gonna send you an actual offer on your five acre parcel for $2,500. Now you accept it. Why? Because for you $2,500 is better than nothing. In reality, three to 5% of people accept my quote unquote, top dollar offer. But now that you've accepted it, I have to go through due diligence or in depth research. I have to confirm you still own the property. I have to confirm back taxes are only $200 I have to make sure there's been no breaks in the chain of title. There's no liens or encumbrances. And because it's only $2,500 investment, I outsourced to my team in the Philippines, connected to an American Title Company. It cost about $11. I was investing $5,000 or more, I wouldn't take any title risk.  You have to close traditionally through a title company. But since this is a smaller deal, everything checks out. And now I'm going to sell your five acre parcel 30 days or less and make a cash flow. So I have a built in best buyer grant. Do you know who it is? Who is the neighbors, the neighbors? So I'm going to send out neighbor letters saying hey, here's your opportunity. Protect your privacy. Protect your views. Know your neighbor. So oftentimes the neighbors will buy now if the neighbors pass a gun to my buyers list, if they pass. A good little website you may have heard of, it's called Craigslist is the 15th most trafficked website United States. I'll go to one I know you've heard of called meta, or Facebook, buy sell groups in the marketplace, and then I'll go to the lands land moto.com lands of america.com land and farm.com land flip.com Land hub.com These are platforms where people buy and sell raw land. But the way that I'm going to do it is the secret. I'm going to make it irresistible for my next buyer. All I'm going to ask for is a $2,500 downpayment, to control this five acre parcel, and then I'll make it a car payment, let's say 297 a month, for the next 84 months at 9% interest. So it's a one time sale, I'll get my money out on the down payment. I could go six to 10 months out. And now I'm getting a passive income of 297 a month, next 84 months. No renters. No rehabs, no renovations, no rodents. And because I'm not dealing with a tenant, I'm exempt from Dodd Frank RESPA. And the SAFE Act, all this owners real estate legislation. So grant, it's a simple game, can I create enough land notes where my passive income exceeds my fixed expenses? And now working?  Grant Because I want to not because I have to guess you have to? So on those numbers, then Mark, when you look at that, and what's the percentage of those that carry all the way through, you know, you're obviously I love, I love how you have the profile for that best buyer, how you create that, that passive income, what sort of risks does that put on your shoulders, where there's potential for them not following through on the cash flow, any issues there? Mark We don't mind it, because we use a land contract. And a land contract means that we can we still own the underlying asset, while they make payments. If they default, they have 30 days to cure their default. If they don't, we keep the down payment, we keep the monthly payments, our cost basis goes lower, we resell that property, we get a new down payment, we get new monthly payments, and extends out a return on investment is... Grant Oh, that's awesome.  Mark So I've been investing my wife and I invest in real estate, but it's it's on. It's with the tenant model, right? It's, you know, creating sort of the cash flow on that site. And it has some of the challenges and headaches you're talking about. Right? It's I deal with property management organizations, I deal with tenants that aren't following through blah, blah, blah, blah, all that. And so this is appealing to me to be able to say, hey, you know, I don't have to worry about about that.  Grant Is there a return that you felt like is higher taking this strategy than taking that sort of tenant based model? Mark Well, our average return on cash is 300%. And on terms, it's 1,000%. Grant That's crazy. Because we you know, typically fight for eight to 10 or 15%, right? In this in this renter model. So that's, that's fascinating, fascinating approach. So a couple things here. The average hold time. So you'd mentioned 30 days, are you literally flipping these in a 30 day timeframe? Is that the average? Mark Yeah, that's average. Now, if it's more than 30 days, something has to change. Maybe we have to raise the downpayment, maybe people think it's too good to be true. Maybe we have to lower the downpayment, maybe we have to raise the price, lower the price, change the interest rate, change the terms, something needs to change, maybe it's as simple as the headline is conducting. So that's our litmus test for what's wrong with our app. Why did that? Why is this not selling 30 days? Grant What's the what's the benefit of turning it into that passive cash flow as opposed to just flipping and taking the cash right now all of it out of the deal and walking away with that in your pocket? Mark Well, cash is a problem, right? Because now I've got to do it all over again. And I've just created a really hard job for myself. So I'd rather buy the asset one time and hold it for as long as I can and have a cash flow rather than flip a tax. Hopefully, I get another deal flip, pay tax, the market could turn on me. Right? I've been I've overpaid and I'm stuck with an asset. Grant Yep, makes makes total sense. So I noticed on your on your on your YouTube channel here. I noticed on there you you've been creating quite a nice playlist for a long time describing some of the challenges the hurdles the things people might deal with some tips and techniques around that. You've been publishing for quite a while on this. If someone were to get started on your YouTube channel itself, you've got this nice entry YouTube video right there passive income without headaches explained. I love that as your entry one. I watched that and you walk through much of the framework that you just described here today, what would be some of the hurdles that you think people will run into? Or that you've seen people run into where, where this doesn't work? Mark Well, you know, the biggest hurdle I think, for people who get started is they think, can I do this in my backyard? Well, if you live in San Francisco, no, no one's gonna sell you an infill lot. 25 cents on the dollar, they're gonna go the biggest, baddest land broker in town. If you live in Manhattan, same thing. So we're looking at properties an hour to three hours from the nearest town. And also, there's 3007 us counties like where do you start? So if I live in Iowa, let's face it, nobody wakes up next boy, I'd like to buy some land today in Iowa, unless you live in Iowa. So to get your biggest buyer pool, you want to be the southwest, little bit the Northwest, California and Florida. These are the sunshine states. These are fast growing states. And there is just a plethora of inexpensive raw land. Grant Okay. All right. That's fascinating. The other thing that I think you wrote your book was in 2017, did I get the date? Right? I think 2018 and 2018. Okay, dirt rich, dirt Ranch is out on Amazon did a review of that awesome book. Tell us about that? What does that cover? Mark So Dirt Rich gives you the basics of how to buy and sell raw land, it also tells my story. So you don't make the same mistakes. I did. And then Durbridge two is coming out very soon. The next plot how to scale your business. Grant I love that the next plot, there's a play on words right there for sure. You're also out there on medium.com. I see you being referenced and talked about there. As well as you got your website, check that out as well land geek, the land geek.com, right, the Land Rover COMM And I'm assuming that is I reviewed that what I noticed about what you have here is this is where people can come to your organization, if I understand it, right and say, hey, I want to get trained in this. I want to get skilled and how to create my own business. I'm assuming this is where you take your years and years of expertise. And you condense that into a program, if you will, that take all the lessons learned rather than take 10 years to learn it. You'll learn it and you know, how long, what is sort of the up ramp for people in terms of amount of time and effort? Mark I mean, can really get going in about 16 weeks. Okay. Yeah. Grant That's, that's amazing. It's amazing. Have you do you participate in any sort of real estate investing other than raw land? Mark No, because I don't have an advantage in any other real estate niche other than raw land. So I'm a inch wide, and a mile deep. So and no one can really get my returns, it would be nice to get depreciation because land lasts forever. But that being said, I don't have to deal with the depreciation like there is depreciation for reason I don't have to deal with any physical structures. So I like the headache free piece of it. And I got it 90% automated with software and expensive virtual assistants. Grant That's incredible. So tell me about your, your best type of client that would come to you and say, hey, I want to participate in building passive income with your program. What does that look like? Who do you know?  Mark You gotta have a burning desire to change your life? Right? You don't have to grit. So anything we're doing in life is inherently hard. And so it's kind of like hockey, right? People who play hockey, really love hockey, because they love it enough to get their teeth knocked out and get back up. It's the same thing in business. You have to love what you're doing enough to get knocked down and get back up. And so if you have a burning desire, give me that more than somebody who has cash. So I always say commitment over cash. It's, that's really all it takes. Grant How much cash did you have when you got started? I mean, it wasn't a ton. Right? Mark I start with $3,000. My buddy Durant's are $800. We think that, you know, 5000 is a is a really easy number. We have some clients who start with $500.  Grant So you really don't need a whole lot of cash is needed that commitment or that grip that that desire to move forward with it. Okay, very good. So, any other tips that you'd want to share with our listeners on on doing this? Mark Well, if I were the listener, I would be thinking, well, Grant. It's so great. Why is Marc teaching it? Grant That's gone through my mind. I mean, You're talking Yeah. 300% To 1,000% return. Mark Right, right. So to answer the question, because when I started teaching that my wife asked me the same questions like, aren't you going to create your own competition? And it's a very valid question. So I started putting on my investment banker hat. And what's the first thing, investment banker looks at? How big is the market, and there are billions of acres of raw land available in the United States. And there is literally do you couldn't think of a more boring niche, like you could go on HGTV or the DIY Network and think, Oh, I'm gonna watch flip this land. The before pictures are all in the after pictures are all in. Plus, there's no hedge funds, there's no private equity groups. So you meet a million people can be in this niche, will all run out of money, before we run out of deal flow. Grant Plenty of opportunity for sure. So is some of this sort of altruistic in terms of you know, you want to give back, you want to see others sort of experience some of the same benefits you have is, is there a component to that that's driven yet to create these systems? Mark I mean, that really is my, my purpose, honestly, because, you know, buying and selling land is great. It's helped five people, really, my family. Yeah, that being said, nobody ever bought a piece of land for me, you know, called me and said, Mark, you changed my life with this land investment, but being able to help people retire their spouses, so they could spend more time with their children, being able to have people replace their income, and really get out of what I call so economic dependency, which means that they're personally not working. They're not making any money, so that they can move up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, into self actualization, and solve not just their money problems, but their time problems, to explore their highest purpose in life. That has been the most gratifying thing for me, professionally. And I absolutely love waking up to that idea every day. Grant This is the "why" of your journey. Right there. That last sentence, isn't it? Yeah, it's helping them to get out of that solo economic dependency for sure. You had mentioned at one point, or I saw when I was doing some reviews on you, five reasons you should be creative, Pat, you should be creating passive income in raw land. What are those five reasons? Mark The first reason is, it's just so simple. All you got is a piece of land and a buyer and a seller. So you know, juxtapose that to like, say multifamily, where you've got to raise millions of dollars, you have to get private capital, you have to get investors, you could spend a million dollars just on due diligence alone. So it's just a much simpler way to go. The other issue is there's just no headaches, nobody's calling you up at three in the morning saying my land is leaking. So you get to go to bed every night, knowing that you don't have to deal with the typical headaches of real estate, tenants, termites, toilets, that kind of thing. So you know, another reason would be that it cash flows. So why not have this passive income come in, and get total freedom in life. So you can work when you want, where you want, and with whom you want. I think another reason is just that there's no limit to it. So you can grow as big or, you know, you can get to a point where you kind of like the Mexican fishermen, you have enough type of thing. And then I just think the other reason, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. And it's not building another job for you, yourself if you just automate it. And I think that's great. Grant Yeah, yeah, that is great. It's interesting that you found this niche. I love how you described it. It's narrow and yet very deep, you become very specialized in this. That's awesome. Mark. Thanks for taking the time with us today. Any final comments or tips you want to share with our listeners? Mark I always love this quote from Zig Ziglar. If you'll do for the next three to five years, what other people won't do, you'll be able to do for the rest of your life. What other people can't do. Grant That's a very enabling. I love that for sure. Gosh, that's awesome. Mark. Thanks for taking the time, "The Land Geek". I appreciate you doing this. And everyone thanks for listening to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. And until next time, check out thelandgeek.com  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E26 TRANSCRIPT: ----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca. Mark: And I'm Mark Yucca: And this week we're talking about the summer. and connecting with our local ecosystems in general, whether that's rural wilderness, urban, whatever it is, where you are, the. Mark: right. Yeah. We were talking about this before we started recording, it's, it's inevitable that in the dark and, and. And cold times of the year in here in the tempera zone that we get driven indoors by our climate. And so our observations and rituals and activities tend to be really indoor focused at that time of the year. Well, now we're at the opposite end of the year, and it's a time to get out and do things and explore the world because as pagans. One of the things we really want to be is really engaged with the world in our lives. Yucca: Right. Right. And, and we really encourage people to. Be getting out and experiencing things anytime of year, but this time makes it a lot easier. And there are a lot of things that are already happening. Outside is when there are lots of outdoor gatherings. It's pretty typical that somebody might be having a barbecue or anything like that. Now of course there are some environments. If you are in Tucson, for instance, You might not be wanting to go out during the date time, you might be spending a lot of time at night outside during the summer, rather than being out in the middle of the day at 110 degrees. Mark: Right. Right. And the desert is amazing at night. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That's, that's well worth exploring checking out what it's like to be, out there in that nighttime environment with all those millions of stars. So, yeah, so let's talk a little bit about this. One of the things that we, that we talk about a lot here is how all of what we experience on earth is nature, right? There's there's, there is no, bright line distinction between the so called artificial, which is the human made and the natural, which is the stuff that's made by everything else. Humans. A part of nature. And what we do is natural. Some of what we do, isn't very good for the rest of the biosphere. But it's still natural. And so engaging with both what's going on in human culture, as well as with with the biological world is it's an important part of our practice. And so, one of the things that we talked about and, and have mentioned many times is this practice of paying attention. Yucca: And that, I mean, there's so many benefits to that. And some of it is, is just on a very practical level of just how you end up feeling in your health as, as another animal. And some of it is also the sense of connection and satisfaction and. Wonder and awe that we get on that very emotional level as well for just tuning in, right. Mark: right, right. And that tuning in it can tell us things about what's going on in the hidden world that we can't see of, of. We, we don't get to follow a bee around and find all the, find out all the things that the bee does. Right. We may see the bee on some flowers and then it flies off. And the rest of what it does, unless you're a beekeeper is kind of mysterious. And the cycles of all of the living, things that are going on around us are very much like that. So we're kind of, observing the tip of the iceberg of everything that's out there. But even that can tell us a lot about what's happening with our climate, what what's happening with the time of year, how that might have changed from our previous year. And so one tool that we encourage you to take up if you haven't already is what's called a phenology journal. And a phenology journal. Literally, what that means is what happened. Phenol phenology is just keeping track of what happened. And so if you go out and in the morning before you get ready to go to work, if you sit for 10 minutes and write down what you see and what temperature it is and what the sky looks like. Pretty soon you will have a data set that will give you a lot of information about how to cha, how to celebrate your Yucca: Mm-hmm right. And, it's kind of funny when we talk about, oh, so what topic do we wanna talk about next episode? Or, what, what can we talk about that we haven't, since we've done, almost three years of episodes and occasionally we'll be browsing through topics, like pagan. And blog ideas or something like that and come across the idea of a book of shadows and both of us have gone. Well, I don't really do that. I don't really have much to say about that. But this is kind of, this is at least for me, the closest thing that I would do to a book of shadows, where it's a recording of what I see, what I noticed what's happening. Not so much about me on the inside. But about the land around me, about the, the area where, where Mark: mm-hmm yeah. And that isn't mutually exclusive with a more traditional book of shadows either. I mean, you could put your, the rituals that you're practicing, whatever Toro cards you drew that day, you could put all that into that journal as well. If you wanted to, or you could keep that stuff in a separate journal Yucca: Right. Mark: as, just as easily, but the, the. The practice of paying attention in that very detailed way of being an amateur scientist and observing and gathering the data about what's happening around you can be really illuminating. And what I find is that it's illuminating about myself too, because if I look at, if I look at my journal entries, I'll notice. Well, okay. This day I was apparently really distracted cuz I didn't capture very much. This other day I was really engaged because I wrote a whole page of stuff that I was observing. And so you kind of learned things about yourself as well. So. Having said all that about how great it is to pay attention and to, keep track of what we're learning, what you can learn about what's happening around you. This is the time of year for field trips, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: uh, which some people call vacations or weekends of camping or whatever it is. And that doesn't have to mean going to a spot of so called nature. Because human activity is, as I just said, human activity is also nature and culture is something that's also very interesting. So, going to a concert, going to a, a special restaurant, going to a lecture or. Museum, all of those things too, can, be informative of your pagan experience because what we want to be, the reason that we're Pagan's right, is that we want to be engaged with the world. We wanna celebrate that as we go forward. So I invite you, whether or not you're able to take time and, and go away to somewhere that's, more trees and animals than it is buildings.  Yucca: Right. Mark: So bring that, that kind of curiosity to the experiences that you can have in the urban environment too. And we are, this is sort of a, a preview. We're gonna do an episode on urban paganism. It's a, it's an idea that was just suggested to us, and we want to do that, but it's gonna take a little bit to set up, cuz we'd like to do, we'd like to have some interviews with that. Yucca: Yeah. So, so thinking about some of the things that. In an urban environment, let's say, you, if you could do a trip to the mountains for camping for a week, like wonderful, but that's unlikely to be what most of us can do. There can be just little moments too, like stopping for half an hour. And people watching or going to the park or actually even just taking a different route home on your commute and noticing what do you see? What do you pick up on, right? Or is there part of the town where. When you do your, your grocery shopping, if you go to a particular store, is there that same store on the other part of town that you can go to and you can go there just a few times a year and kind of check in like, oh, what is it like in the early spring? And what's that part of town like in the, the fall or that sort of thing, just that in making a point to pay attention and be aware in the little moments. That is that's Mark: Right, right. One of the things that we're learning about human memory is that memory, memory that's accessible, that you can, that you can reach back to and, and, bring conjure the, the moment up again, it tends to be of things that are novel. Yucca: wonderful and helpful Mark: Things that are new, which is why traveling is so wonderful because every experience is a new experience. You're not in the rut of the same house, the same car, the same workplace, the same route to work. So introducing novelty into your life that way can make your life a lot more memorable and feel like you're having. More life, you, you don't, you don't wake up one day and realize God, three years have gone by how did that happen? Cuz you're doing things that are interesting and and keep you awake and alive. Yucca: Right. And that's one of the thoughts about why it felt like years lasted for so long when we were kids. And then the older we get, the more, it just seems to be flying by. Some of that is perspective in that, the one year is just a much shorter period of our lives now, but when we were a kid, everything was new. Right. You learned, you learned that other continents existed for the first time. At some point when you were a kid or the first time you learned about the periodic table, or you heard an owl or a something, all of those things were new. The whole world was new and actually. Even though we're, I'm assuming most folks listening are, are adults. Maybe we've got some, some awesome youth listening as well. But even though things are, are, we've experienced a lot of the world we've not experienced anywhere, close to all of it. Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: could have something new, a novel every single day of your life. If you are looking for it. And paying attention for it. Mark: Right. And that's why this paying attention is so important for having an engaged life. One of the big differences between paganism, including non theist, paganism and. The the big monotheisms is that. As far as we're concerned, we're living for this world, we're even, even pagans who believe in an afterlife, don't generally believe that they're trying to qualify for some afterlife. That's a good one. They believe that something else is gonna happen after you die. But in the meantime, our job is to live this life as well as we possibly can. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: And as non theist pagans, as far as we're concerned, that's it, you die and nature disassembles you and forms you into new stuff. So this life and engaging with this world that has brought us forth becomes the central mission. Of our existence and that's a really profoundly different approach than the mainstream approach. And it's so important, I believe for introduction of that into the culture, because it's the only it's that ethic that's gonna enable us to really tackle problems like climate change. People have really got to understand how important this world is in order to make the appropriate and sometimes uncomfortable adjustments that are gonna be required in order for us to solve this. Yucca: Yeah. Right. And, and being aware of what this world is, that's a big step in that, right. Because as we've been talking about the, the human world of culture and all of these, that's totally valid and it's extremely important, but it's not all of it. It's a very, very small, tiny sliver of what's happening. What's part of this planet and this Mark: Yes. Yes. And so. Having a respectful curiosity about all of these things becomes a really useful default position. Yucca: system mm-hmm Mark: I mean, I would take that one step further. I would say that having a respectful curiosity carries into successful to successful relationships, successful business practices, all that kind of thing, because it keeps your mind. It means that you're listening and it means that you are acknowledging the the dignity and worth of the people that are around you and of the non-human entities that are around you, the, the creatures of the world. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So really encourage you during these summer months to get out there whatever out there means to you. I mean, with COVID, we've been staying in a lot and of course we want you to be safe, but take a field trip, take a walk in a different direction than you used to take a different route home from work rearrange furniture in one of your rooms, shake it up. Yucca: Yeah. And if you do have an opportunity to maybe do something a little bit more than you typically would if you do have a chance to go camping or just to put that tent up in your backyard, if you have one where you might have just stayed home for your day off, that's also of the things about the summer is that it's a time where you just gotta do. Right in the winter often we're hunkered down and we're starting the late winter, early spring. We're planning in the summer. Now's the time, Mark: right. Yucca: it's the time to do it, if you're gonna do it, do it. And at least for me, sometimes that's the hardest part. Great. At the planning. . And then I just wanna sit there and keep planning about how I will go and do this thing. But then I gotta actually get up and do it, so that's, everybody's gonna be different with that, but just encourage people if you have the opportunity, whatever it is. And then once you get that momentum going, it's easier to carry it into the colder months or into the times of year. That might not be quite as comfortable or pleasant to be out. And again, it's gonna really depend on what your climate is. Mark, I would imagine where you live being outside in. January might not be so terrible. Right? Mark: No. I mean, it, it could be wet. At least we hope it is cuz we're in the middle of a terrible drought. But other than that, I mean the temperatures are still in the forties and fifties. It's just  Yucca: so it's sweater, weather, sweater, and a raincoat. Yeah. Mark: Sweater and a raincoat. Exactly. It's not, I mean the kinds of overcoats that people wear in areas that get really cold, we just never see them here because nobody ever needs them. Yucca: right. Yeah. Very different. But it very, very different than if you were in Missoula. Right. Trying to go out. And, and in January. So, but, but the point is like, whatever it is for you getting that, that momentum going this is a good time for that. If that's where you're at. Mark: It is. And one trick in doing that is to enlist allies. Yucca: Mm Mark: One way I imagine you can make things happen. Yucca is by telling your kids that they're going to happen, Yucca: Yes, it it, and then. Mark: then Yucca: They are. Yes. Oh, they Mark: hook. Yucca: ex and you think they forget about it. Right? And then you hear the little voice mom, you said like, oh yeah, I did say it, but it's bedtime now. Nope. Okay. I promised all right, let's go do it. Mark: Okay. Yeah, it is. It is amazing how the expectations of others could leverage us, Yucca: Yeah. And if you maybe make a, make a date to, to see somebody in the park, right? Hey, we're gonna meet for half an hour. We're just gonna talk for, hang out for that half an hour and then we're gonna go home. That other person is, is expecting you. Mark: Right. Yucca: And yeah, that's a, that's a wonderful point. So that goes back to some of the stuff we've been talking about, about, finding community and building community. And that can be powerful, but if you don't have that, you can still have that amazing private. Personal relationship with whatever it is you're doing the new route home that you're taking, or the sitting at the park, or, you know what, taking a moment to, to drink your morning caffeine on the porch or whatever it is that you're gonna be doing. You can do that in that, those quiet moments of Mark: right, right. So, this is a somewhat shorter episode this time and that's because we want to encourage you to go out and find it, whatever it is. It's it's summer. Which means a lot of different things in a lot of different places. But what it does mean universally for those of us that are in the Northern hemisphere is that the days are long. There's a, there's a lot of time to do stuff. And so, we hope that you will seize the opportunity to do exciting novel and interesting things and engage with your world. Yucca: right. And we will be back with you next week to already be talking about that August holiday coming up. Mark: That's right. Yeah. The, the wheel continues to turn, so we'll be here and we hope you will Yucca: Thank you everyone.    .

The power of love as attraction...played out in real time...is this true love? Is this the happiness that your hearts seeks? Entering into the mystery of another person  will blow your mind. It was supposed to..."in the beginning". The experience of "Original Innocence"  and "justice" before the fall. Mark Schmitt joins Jack to discuss how St John Paul II prophetically saw this confusion over the body and the distortions that would follow. He cut right through the confusion with his teaching on the Theology of the Body.This is John Paul II's Wednesday Audience #18 presented on February  13, 1980.Book: Man and Woman He Created Them, A Theology of the Body, Saint John Paul II, translation, introduction and index by Michael Waldstein, Pauline Books and Media, 2006Please consider being a Sponsor of the show! We need to raise $2500-3000.00 a month to fund a new initiative  to support parents and families. "The future of humanity passes by way of the family"--John Paul II.  We already have the person ready to go...now we just need to bring  her on board!25 donors who can contribute $100.00 a month gets us there!  Say yes today and change the lives of hundreds of young people who have never heard the story  that was created with them in mind! Support the showPlease share this with your friends and family!Don't forget to sign up for our Newsletter!!  JPll Renewal Center email listEmail me with questions!Contact Jack: BWYR Podcast is a production of the John Paul ll Renewal Center or email him at info@jp2renew.orgSupport the show

In this episode, I have the opportunity to sit down with someone that has digested and synthesize the tax code and brings the tax saving secrets to you. Grant  Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial investing radio. So today I have with me someone that just barely met. But as I review, his biography, his profile what he does, it is in one of those places, which I admittedly know so little about, I lean on so many people for help in this area. Now I get to meet with and speak with an expert in the area of how to take it to the tax man. All right, let me welcome Mark Meyers here today. Welcome, Mark. Mark Hey, thank you so much, Grant, I'm excited to chat with you about this. And, you know, hey, if you can keep more of that hard earned profit. It definitely helps in the wealth accumulation realm for sure. So this exciting topic. Grant Boy, for sure. You know, when when you think about taxes and talking about taxes, you know, it's probably right up there with flossing your teeth, right? It's like, oh, everyone should be doing it. Right. But oh, my gosh, do I really want to talk about taxes. Turns out, as I was reviewing some things that you have done to help people, individuals, businesses, really reduce their tax burden. And putting that money, like you said, or leaving that money back in your pocket, suddenly, it becomes really an interesting topic to address. But before you give away any secrets, let's back up. How is it that you got interested in taxes? What is it that even got you to this point?  Mark Grant, you know, it's an interesting story, because I started out my career at the University of Florida, with as an undergrad in exercise physiology, get my Master's in sports management, moved to New York City to manage health clubs, and then moved to Los Angeles to edit, manage more health clubs. And in the process of doing that, I helped a really large high end brand, open a number of different locations. And in that they were they went from a 10 clubs to over 100 clubs. And in that process, I really learn to be an owner operator, every club that I would open or go chant, you know, help return around, I'd have to really be mindful of driving revenue, minimizing expenses, putting the operations in in place, you know, the best practices in place to get the best output. And of course, I was compensated on EBIT margin, so I'd get a base, and then I'd have cash bonus based off of how profitable is the company process, I realized, you know, hey, I might be running health clubs. And I might have a background here, but I have a knack for running companies. And I know there's a lot more opportunity in the financial markets in the financial world, particular to consulting with business owners, that's when I said the light came on after, you know, working well over a decade, you know, 365 days a year, and these clubs are open from, you know, five in the morning till 12 At night, you know, they never got hit. So I'm like, Okay, I'm going to shift gears here and do something fun that can ultimately help other people, and also helped me kind of increase my income opportunity here. Get out of this glass ceiling environment. Grant Yeah. So So you are living this life of just constantly being on right, the lights on, right, because your clubs are on right, the gyms are open, and so you're trying to optimize as much as possible. Talk about school, hard knocks, right? I mean, you learn the lessons along the way, for sure, right? Oh, for sure. Mark I mean, it's one of those things where you know, every penny counts, particularly in that industry. And of course, I worked in a higher end layer. So it was, you know, we're looking at 200 plus dollar a month memberships with spa packages and training and Pilates and Yoga. But at the same time, you still have to be mindful of your margins. That's really, really important. So it was it was a nice experience. It was a nice way to understand how to really learn the p&l, learn the people, learn the drivers, and then of course transitioned over to say, hey, I can speak to business owners, I could speak to those that are looking to, you know, increase efficiency. And there's a lot of opportunity there. So that's kind of where this all kicked off. Grant So in the course of doing this, you start uncovering, I'm assuming, oh, here's a little secret about how I could save a little more money or take some out of the taxes. I imagine over a period of time you started to build up this cadre, or list of or selection of wait, here's some best practices of actually taking the tax back from the tax man and leaving it with you. There's it was it was it that it was a 10 year journey that you invested in to build up that knowledge base? It sounds like, Right? Mark Absolutely. And you know, you really said something important, and it was very accurate in that my, my getting to where I am now didn't happen overnight. In particularly shifting gears, I'd say the last seven or eight years is when I really really shifted gears, to not just talk about can I just not consult with with individuals on their businesses and help them with maybe some financial planning, really shifting gears and saying, hey, there are a lot of different opportunities to reduce tax. And I just went out there. And just like in the past, in my first few years of this, I was kind of more of an advanced insurance specialist and consultant to business owners, and I could go out there and work with any insurance carrier. And I could basically look and say, you know, this is the carrier need for this solution. And this is why this is I realized I could do the same thing in the tax realm, there's just not 100 different, you know, tax savings providers out there, there's probably about 20 to 30 that you want to do business with. And these are small groups are generally fairly boutique, they're not huge. And they offer something very, very specific. And it's somewhere in the 70,000 pages of tax code. And they just so happened to analyze it, apply it. And basically, that's their gig key. So I have a lot of different tools in the tool chest, I have a lot of different relationships with groups that do these things. And I break when I do consulting work, I just put all the pieces of the puzzle together. And it's really cool. I'm not a CPA, I'm not a tax attorney, I'm really literally I call myself a tax savings architect, I've just developed this ability to consult, oh, that's a great title.  Grant Wait, say that title again, you're a what? Mark A tax savings architect, Oh, I love it together, I just build I build the plan. And then I bring the vendors in, right, the right team on the on the coach, I'm bringing the right team in to put the right plays in at the right times. And then the implementation goes, you know, off, you know, from there. Grant So, what I want to highlight is you have developed this by doing it again and again, maybe making a mistake fixing it again and again, oh, learning more again, and you put in that 10 year effort to gather and build that experience and that that's the value platform that you bring to the people so they're not off doing 10 years of learning the lessons, right? Mark Oh, for sure. Grant, I'll tell you, these are types of things that, you know, people don't have time, even the best CPAs right. And you can think about any CPA out there, you've got out of every 10 You're gonna have to my experience, you're gonna have two out of 10 that have developed their practice in a way that they'll have forward looking have a forward looking approach. And they'll have more bandwidth than just, you know, recording and tracking and filing right most of them record track and file. Do you have any more expenses? Are you sure you don't have any more you know, you can buy this capital, we get section 179 it so why don't you spend $1 to save 35 cents? No, that's, that's really a good idea if you need what you're buying. But two out of 10 are forward looking right? They're actually stepping outside of the box and seeing what's out there. They're 70,000 pages of tax code. So this is where the key is at 10 years, you're talking about their 70,000 pages of tax code you if you're going to win a championship. If you're a team think about a just a collegiate team or a professional team. They have multiple coaches. They have strength coaches, they have quarterback coaches that are talking about football they have offensive line coaches defensive line coaches look at businesses the reason why Amazon and Microsoft and General Electric and Nike and DuPont the reason why they pay significantly lower taxes than the average individual is because they have teams they have accounting teams, more than one CPA, they have attorneys they have business strategists. So this is what I really do is I bring that team approach to the small to medium size business owner or you don't even have to be a small to medium sized business owner to have tax savings you can be a high income earning executive. Oh really how to Matt navigate the tax code. There's things that you can do to reduce your tax. Grant Okay, so that gets the the question I was gonna ask around who is this for? Definitely the business owner. But if you're, if you're in the High Net Worth areas and individual this is applicable to you as well. Mark Absolutely. There's three there's three He kind of avenues, business owners. And the reason why is business owners are great to work with because they have control over their income, they can determine how much salary they take, they can determine how they take their income. It really they have the control. The other side would be high income earning executives that maybe don't have as much control but they're they're looking at, you know, half a million dollars or more of taxable income per year. I can work with business owners with much less I mean, they can have as low as 250 or so in taxable income, okay, because the more there's more flexibility. And then the Third Avenue is people that are selling highly appreciated assets, once a lot of crypto traders or somebody that had a stock portfolio, but they didn't have this huge blend, it wasn't like a qualified account, it was just a brokerage account, they had positions that just blew up, and now they're sitting on, you know, $5 million with Apple stock. Well, if they pull the trigger on it, they're looking at, you know, if they're California 37%. Grant Yeah, goodbye to that.  Mark Yeah, well, I can help them, you know, really take care of that as well either eliminated or different depending on what solutions we're looking at. Grant So, okay, what about what about on the, on the inheritance side, same same sort of story. In other words, let's say you inherited something is you have techniques that helps with that group as well. Mark Well, on the inheritance side, I don't spend a lot of time there, because generally, that should be done prior to and a lot of the work that I do actually blends in with maybe some estate planning attorneys, because you really want to solve that equation prior to the need. If you don't, then unfortunately, if you're above the exemption rate, the estate tax man will come take, you know, 60% of that from your kids, right? Not from you, but from your kids and your loved ones. And they might even have to be, they might have to sell appreciate it like this is a real estate high net worth real estate holder, they're selling off real estate just to pay the estate tax, which is never a good thing. So we when it comes to the gifting and the you know passing on to heirs, we generally integrate that into our planning, but we're doing it prior to so that way the kids and their loved ones can breathe, you know, sleep well at night and not have to worry too much about worrying too much about about that sort of thing.  Grant So so let's take the scenario of you're a small and medium business owner and you've got the you've got this tax burden on you. Do you need to be doing the work ahead of time? Is this a whole year of effort that the business owner goes through? Whether they have to be intentional throughout the whole year? Or do your practices, techniques allow you to just sort of come in at the last minute and who 30% off? Thanks, Mark. Have a great year? Mark Yes, well, I would say a little bit of all apply. But proactive forward looking is always the best. The best approach is a forward looking approach. Now I can do hindsight foresight, and then give you insight. On the hindsight we're always looking at, well, what did you miss that you can go back and pick up a lot of people don't realize, particularly in business, there's tax credits that they can pick up in previous years. Currently, right now for the next few months. There's the employee retention tax credit. So there's there's r&d credits, there's there's trends for investing in renewable energy, they can go backwards and pick up previous taxes paid, it's always look at the hindsight, what can we pick up that you paid in the last year or two or three? Ford, Ford sight? Or, you know, foresight is okay, what can we do to change the trajectory of your current income? Because right now, the way we're always looking at pathways, how are you taking your income, because what we need to do is look at creating new pathways. And if you have different pathways to receive the same income, there might be a different taxable situation. But those pathways aren't going to save you. You can't save any money until the pathway is created. So the foresight we're always looking at, well, this is how much money you're taking in now. And you've taken it in one pathway, or maybe two pathways, and this is your taxable outcome. But what if we created two additional pathways? Now you have four pathways, and we're not talking about deferring it. And putting into qualified accounts. I'm not talking about any of that, obviously, that's been going on for years and years and years is there's arguments as to whether or not that really is saving them anything. At the end of the day, we're talking about really taking tax law and the tax code by the horns and saying, hey, the tax code says I can do this, therefore, this money is not taxable. Right. So now that you have this money in your hand, that's not taxable you and you've lowered your adjusted gross income because you took a portion of your money that the tax code says is not taxable because of the way that you've structured it structure that we've just just decreased your taxes and you're like liquid, like the money that you save is liquid, it's in your pocket. If you want to use that for investing you can if you want to use that to recapitalize your business you can if you want to use that to go to Vegas, you can. Grant Yeah, your choice and that's the whole point. It's your choice rather than Uncle Sam. So the strategy seems to be tell me if I've got this right. It's don't fire your CPA because you're going to keep The CPA as a business owner, because you're not the CPA, but what you are bringing is a way to be more productive as you work with the CPA, right, you're bringing in additional knowledge or insight that will then be brought into those conversations with the CPA currently have is that close 100%. Mark And what I always like to tell business owners, and right off the bat is, you know, let's, let's not put your CPA on defense mode, right? They, there's no CPA out there that has the bandwidth, to have this time to vet and research all these different ways to save taxes. I mean, they know a lot, but because they may not know everything that I'll bring to the table, that's okay. So the first thing is make sure that they're not on the defense. And also, I'm not looking to take over any bookkeeping, your tax filing or tax prep, I'm just looking to add additional layers that usually increase revenue for the accounting because it usually does increase their need to maybe have an additional filing each year, or maybe some additional bookkeeping to take to oversee these new solutions.  Grant So it's all day for you as a partner in it, your they don't see you as Oh, I'm here taking business from 100%. Mark Most of the time, when I'm speaking to the right CPAs. And I'm introduced to them by the taxpayer, I get introduced to three or four new clients that the CPA has, because they're like, this is great, I have you know, four or five, or depending on the CPA, they might work with a higher net worth individuals, they might have more, but I like those relationships, because they open the door for more opportunity. Now, I will say there's going to be out of that regard every 10 CPAs, there's two that are for thinking. And there's eight that are really just doing the numbers really doing the prep the recording and filing and prepping. Sometimes the eight, there could be some resistance there. And it's it's, it's only because they don't know what they don't know. So in those situations, hey, I always say it's up to you. It's up to the taxpayer, that you're the decision maker, the CPA is not the decision maker. And I have you know, I never want to pry someone away from their CPA, but if they really liked what I'm talking about under CPAs, just very resistant, doing anything that they're outside of their norm was to have dozens and dozens of CPAs all over the nation that would be very happy to interview you. Or you could interview them because they know the solutions and their clients use them. Grant Yeah, I was gonna ask you. So how does you know? What's some guidance for our listeners on? How do you pick? How do you find those two out of the 10? CPAs? Right? What are some of the key things that someone's looking for? to vet your CPA or while you're searching for someone to say, now you're you're part of the 80%? It's you you're actually not going to help me as much I'm looking for the 20% What What are some tips you have? Mark Yeah, first thing Grant is ask them if they do quarterly meetings. If the CPA or the tax preparer for you is not meeting with you quarterly, they are not forward looking, they're likely going to say hey, let's meet in might not even be before the end of the year, it might be in like January or February to say tell me what you have, is that all the expenses you have? Are you sure because we need to file. But if they even if they're only meeting once per year, at the end of the year, and just trying to figure out, okay, we need to shove a little bit more in the qualified account. And maybe you can have any more, you know, maybe you can buy some more capital equipment. That is not, you know, I'm not saying that's well, let me just say this, that is not the accounting, that that someone needs as they're climbing, the echelon of income, if they're still using that CPA, when they're climbing that income bracket, they are going to be paying retail taxes. When everybody else that has reached that level. When they get to a certain level of of success. They figured out how to pay wholesale sales, no different. There's no different there's a retail price, and there's a wholesale price and the people that pay the wholesale price go above and beyond and look for the coupons where the coupons they're in the tax code. Awesome. The IRS is not saying I'm giving out all day. Yeah, they're not putting a flyer out your mail.  Grant Wait a minute, are you saying there's no mobile app that they could the tax code mobile app with coupons? I think we should build that. That's a great I should yeah, that's my app.  Mark Together Grant. Grant  Let's go build that. I bet there's a market for that. Mark Okay. I would bet there is as well. Yeah, absolutely. Grant I love that idea. Okay, so there's something I saw on your profile that intrigued me many things intrigued me and one of those. I just gotta read this off here. Because when I read it, I was like, Where do I sign? It? It was it was learn how to get the IRS to fund a portion of your retirement 100% tax free. So like, right next to the mobile app. We just talked about developing there's this also. Okay, tell me all right. We want the IRS to fund a portion of our retirement 100% tax free any secrets you can share on that? Mark You know, there's a I'll, I won't give everything away, right? I want people to want to ask me some questions. But I will say this, there's a few different ways to do it. One of the ways is when you find these tax savings, right, when there's that when you're applying the code that's going to basically give you a deduction, right? Because there's codes I can actually, you know, there's a little golf tournament. Here's a nice secret out there. A lot of people know about this, but let's a lot of people don't as well, golf tournament out there. It's been going on for years and years and years. And the winner gets a green jacket. I'm not sure if you're a golfing fan. Oh, sure. Or Yep. If you know, who gets the green jacket every year, you know, there there is somewhere in Georgia and a little town. That's right. And it's a very prestigious golf tournament. So about 60 years ago, the higher net worth individuals that lived around that, that golf course realize that they could rent their homes to the corporation's coming in that were or anyone coming in that wanted to, you know, watch the tournament, and they could rent their homes for significantly more than they would you know, what would cost them to go have a little nice vacation? So in that process, they said, Well, these are our personal residence. This is not a this is not an income property. So they lobby to the their friends and Senate and said, Hey, we're not renting our this is not an income producing property. But we're not getting any deductions on this. We're not getting any tax benefits. But so can we have some benefits. So they basically the Congress, and there's two tax codes that validate this, you can rent your personal residence for up to a certain number of days per year. And the dollars that you receive for that rent is tax free, as long as you don't rent your home for over a certain number of days. Now, here's where it gets fun grant, because some people don't want strangers in their house. Right? So even if they could rent their house for significantly more than they could go do something else. They don't want to Airbnb their house, what if they're a business owner? Well, can they rent their business? Can they rent their house to their business for business purposes? Using the same tax code? Absolutely. Now, we just have to determine what the value is, and put it in your bot and your minutes and ultimately integrate it and know, now when you create those deductions, right? Because if you're renting your house, from your business, and you create a deduction at the business level, but didn't cost you anything at the personal level, or the business level, maybe there's a, you know, maybe the meeting you did was whatever, you know, lunch, well, you just created deductions with no cost, no cost. Now that tax savings now the tax savings is getting to you from that's where you're funding your retirement tax free from the IRS because those that those dollars are non taxable. Now, if you get them into a Roth, if you get them into a cash value life insurance policy, you're never paying the taxes again. So now you're looking at never even paying taxes again after you didn't pay the taxes on it to begin with. Okay, that was one little nugget. Grant That's you know, would you just drop the mic on that? You're not holding in my car? Yeah, yeah. Mark No, but if I dropped it, it might fall off my desk. Grant I might, I might fall off that. Yeah, I tell you, Mark, that that was awesome. Just following that flow of what you articulated. I think that's a beautiful thing. Okay. So let me ask you this. With all that you're doing, and with all that people are coming to you for? How do they engage with you? How do they dial it? How they interact with you? How do they how do they say I'm a good candidate for you? Where do they go to find out more about you? Mark Great question, I always just invite him to my website, Grant, I just PeakProfitSolutions.com. And as you know, peak as in a mountain peak, P-E-A-K Profit Solutions, plural PeakProfitSolutions.com. On that you can have, there's places where you can go get case studies, I click here for some case studies, there's a link that says, hey, book an appointment with me, and 20 It literally only takes me 20 minutes to have a conversation with someone to determine if they're a good candidate for any one of the dozen or more solutions that I can bring to the table. That's really the best thing though, the most important thing to know is, you know, just take a little bit of time, even if it's 20 minute phone call, you don't have to come super prepared. They don't have to come with their entire balance and their their previous tax years and their p&l Like just come and say, This is what I how I'm structured. This is how much I'm making every year. I'm writing a lot, you know, just all they need to do is do that. And I and from that point forward, I can determine right out of the gate if they're a good candidate for the architecture to start. Grnant The tax architect. Mark Architect, tax savings, architecture, tax savings architect good building. That's right. Grant That is awesome. That is awesome. Excellent. Mark, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Mark No, I just appreciate being on the show. Appreciate your, your hosting style, and of course, all the interviews that you've done on your channel so are fun to listen to. So thank you. Grant I'm having fun. It's a fascinating world, right? There's just so many great people doing so many cool things. So when your profile came across me as like, Oh, I gotta talk this guy. He's got some secrets about reducing taxes. Okay, yeah, he's in. So thanks for doing that mark for thanks for taking the time everyone. Thanks for joining another episode of Financial investing radio. And until next time, go check out go check out Peak Profits Solutions. Thank you for joining Grant on Financial Investing Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback.  

In this episode, I have the opportunity to sit down with someone that has digested and synthesize the tax code and brings the tax saving secrets to you. Grant  Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial investing radio. So today I have with me someone that just barely met. But as I review, his biography, his profile what he does, it is in one of those places, which I admittedly know so little about, I lean on so many people for help in this area. Now I get to meet with and speak with an expert in the area of how to take it to the tax man. All right, let me welcome Mark Meyers here today. Welcome, Mark. Mark Hey, thank you so much, Grant, I'm excited to chat with you about this. And, you know, hey, if you can keep more of that hard earned profit. It definitely helps in the wealth accumulation realm for sure. So this exciting topic. Grant Boy, for sure. You know, when when you think about taxes and talking about taxes, you know, it's probably right up there with flossing your teeth, right? It's like, oh, everyone should be doing it. Right. But oh, my gosh, do I really want to talk about taxes. Turns out, as I was reviewing some things that you have done to help people, individuals, businesses, really reduce their tax burden. And putting that money, like you said, or leaving that money back in your pocket, suddenly, it becomes really an interesting topic to address. But before you give away any secrets, let's back up. How is it that you got interested in taxes? What is it that even got you to this point?  Mark Grant, you know, it's an interesting story, because I started out my career at the University of Florida, with as an undergrad in exercise physiology, get my Master's in sports management, moved to New York City to manage health clubs, and then moved to Los Angeles to edit, manage more health clubs. And in the process of doing that, I helped a really large high end brand, open a number of different locations. And in that they were they went from a 10 clubs to over 100 clubs. And in that process, I really learn to be an owner operator, every club that I would open or go chant, you know, help return around, I'd have to really be mindful of driving revenue, minimizing expenses, putting the operations in in place, you know, the best practices in place to get the best output. And of course, I was compensated on EBIT margin, so I'd get a base, and then I'd have cash bonus based off of how profitable is the company process, I realized, you know, hey, I might be running health clubs. And I might have a background here, but I have a knack for running companies. And I know there's a lot more opportunity in the financial markets in the financial world, particular to consulting with business owners, that's when I said the light came on after, you know, working well over a decade, you know, 365 days a year, and these clubs are open from, you know, five in the morning till 12 At night, you know, they never got hit. So I'm like, Okay, I'm going to shift gears here and do something fun that can ultimately help other people, and also helped me kind of increase my income opportunity here. Get out of this glass ceiling environment. Grant Yeah. So So you are living this life of just constantly being on right, the lights on, right, because your clubs are on right, the gyms are open, and so you're trying to optimize as much as possible. Talk about school, hard knocks, right? I mean, you learn the lessons along the way, for sure, right? Oh, for sure. Mark I mean, it's one of those things where you know, every penny counts, particularly in that industry. And of course, I worked in a higher end layer. So it was, you know, we're looking at 200 plus dollar a month memberships with spa packages and training and Pilates and Yoga. But at the same time, you still have to be mindful of your margins. That's really, really important. So it was it was a nice experience. It was a nice way to understand how to really learn the p&l, learn the people, learn the drivers, and then of course transitioned over to say, hey, I can speak to business owners, I could speak to those that are looking to, you know, increase efficiency. And there's a lot of opportunity there. So that's kind of where this all kicked off. Grant So in the course of doing this, you start uncovering, I'm assuming, oh, here's a little secret about how I could save a little more money or take some out of the taxes. I imagine over a period of time you started to build up this cadre, or list of or selection of wait, here's some best practices of actually taking the tax back from the tax man and leaving it with you. There's it was it was it that it was a 10 year journey that you invested in to build up that knowledge base? It sounds like, Right? Mark Absolutely. And you know, you really said something important, and it was very accurate in that my, my getting to where I am now didn't happen overnight. In particularly shifting gears, I'd say the last seven or eight years is when I really really shifted gears, to not just talk about can I just not consult with with individuals on their businesses and help them with maybe some financial planning, really shifting gears and saying, hey, there are a lot of different opportunities to reduce tax. And I just went out there. And just like in the past, in my first few years of this, I was kind of more of an advanced insurance specialist and consultant to business owners, and I could go out there and work with any insurance carrier. And I could basically look and say, you know, this is the carrier need for this solution. And this is why this is I realized I could do the same thing in the tax realm, there's just not 100 different, you know, tax savings providers out there, there's probably about 20 to 30 that you want to do business with. And these are small groups are generally fairly boutique, they're not huge. And they offer something very, very specific. And it's somewhere in the 70,000 pages of tax code. And they just so happened to analyze it, apply it. And basically, that's their gig key. So I have a lot of different tools in the tool chest, I have a lot of different relationships with groups that do these things. And I break when I do consulting work, I just put all the pieces of the puzzle together. And it's really cool. I'm not a CPA, I'm not a tax attorney, I'm really literally I call myself a tax savings architect, I've just developed this ability to consult, oh, that's a great title.  Grant Wait, say that title again, you're a what? Mark A tax savings architect, Oh, I love it together, I just build I build the plan. And then I bring the vendors in, right, the right team on the on the coach, I'm bringing the right team in to put the right plays in at the right times. And then the implementation goes, you know, off, you know, from there. Grant So, what I want to highlight is you have developed this by doing it again and again, maybe making a mistake fixing it again and again, oh, learning more again, and you put in that 10 year effort to gather and build that experience and that that's the value platform that you bring to the people so they're not off doing 10 years of learning the lessons, right? Mark Oh, for sure. Grant, I'll tell you, these are types of things that, you know, people don't have time, even the best CPAs right. And you can think about any CPA out there, you've got out of every 10 You're gonna have to my experience, you're gonna have two out of 10 that have developed their practice in a way that they'll have forward looking have a forward looking approach. And they'll have more bandwidth than just, you know, recording and tracking and filing right most of them record track and file. Do you have any more expenses? Are you sure you don't have any more you know, you can buy this capital, we get section 179 it so why don't you spend $1 to save 35 cents? No, that's, that's really a good idea if you need what you're buying. But two out of 10 are forward looking right? They're actually stepping outside of the box and seeing what's out there. They're 70,000 pages of tax code. So this is where the key is at 10 years, you're talking about their 70,000 pages of tax code you if you're going to win a championship. If you're a team think about a just a collegiate team or a professional team. They have multiple coaches. They have strength coaches, they have quarterback coaches that are talking about football they have offensive line coaches defensive line coaches look at businesses the reason why Amazon and Microsoft and General Electric and Nike and DuPont the reason why they pay significantly lower taxes than the average individual is because they have teams they have accounting teams, more than one CPA, they have attorneys they have business strategists. So this is what I really do is I bring that team approach to the small to medium size business owner or you don't even have to be a small to medium sized business owner to have tax savings you can be a high income earning executive. Oh really how to Matt navigate the tax code. There's things that you can do to reduce your tax. Grant Okay, so that gets the the question I was gonna ask around who is this for? Definitely the business owner. But if you're, if you're in the High Net Worth areas and individual this is applicable to you as well. Mark Absolutely. There's three there's three He kind of avenues, business owners. And the reason why is business owners are great to work with because they have control over their income, they can determine how much salary they take, they can determine how they take their income. It really they have the control. The other side would be high income earning executives that maybe don't have as much control but they're they're looking at, you know, half a million dollars or more of taxable income per year. I can work with business owners with much less I mean, they can have as low as 250 or so in taxable income, okay, because the more there's more flexibility. And then the Third Avenue is people that are selling highly appreciated assets, once a lot of crypto traders or somebody that had a stock portfolio, but they didn't have this huge blend, it wasn't like a qualified account, it was just a brokerage account, they had positions that just blew up, and now they're sitting on, you know, $5 million with Apple stock. Well, if they pull the trigger on it, they're looking at, you know, if they're California 37%. Grant Yeah, goodbye to that.  Mark Yeah, well, I can help them, you know, really take care of that as well either eliminated or different depending on what solutions we're looking at. Grant So, okay, what about what about on the, on the inheritance side, same same sort of story. In other words, let's say you inherited something is you have techniques that helps with that group as well. Mark Well, on the inheritance side, I don't spend a lot of time there, because generally, that should be done prior to and a lot of the work that I do actually blends in with maybe some estate planning attorneys, because you really want to solve that equation prior to the need. If you don't, then unfortunately, if you're above the exemption rate, the estate tax man will come take, you know, 60% of that from your kids, right? Not from you, but from your kids and your loved ones. And they might even have to be, they might have to sell appreciate it like this is a real estate high net worth real estate holder, they're selling off real estate just to pay the estate tax, which is never a good thing. So we when it comes to the gifting and the you know passing on to heirs, we generally integrate that into our planning, but we're doing it prior to so that way the kids and their loved ones can breathe, you know, sleep well at night and not have to worry too much about worrying too much about about that sort of thing.  Grant So so let's take the scenario of you're a small and medium business owner and you've got the you've got this tax burden on you. Do you need to be doing the work ahead of time? Is this a whole year of effort that the business owner goes through? Whether they have to be intentional throughout the whole year? Or do your practices, techniques allow you to just sort of come in at the last minute and who 30% off? Thanks, Mark. Have a great year? Mark Yes, well, I would say a little bit of all apply. But proactive forward looking is always the best. The best approach is a forward looking approach. Now I can do hindsight foresight, and then give you insight. On the hindsight we're always looking at, well, what did you miss that you can go back and pick up a lot of people don't realize, particularly in business, there's tax credits that they can pick up in previous years. Currently, right now for the next few months. There's the employee retention tax credit. So there's there's r&d credits, there's there's trends for investing in renewable energy, they can go backwards and pick up previous taxes paid, it's always look at the hindsight, what can we pick up that you paid in the last year or two or three? Ford, Ford sight? Or, you know, foresight is okay, what can we do to change the trajectory of your current income? Because right now, the way we're always looking at pathways, how are you taking your income, because what we need to do is look at creating new pathways. And if you have different pathways to receive the same income, there might be a different taxable situation. But those pathways aren't going to save you. You can't save any money until the pathway is created. So the foresight we're always looking at, well, this is how much money you're taking in now. And you've taken it in one pathway, or maybe two pathways, and this is your taxable outcome. But what if we created two additional pathways? Now you have four pathways, and we're not talking about deferring it. And putting into qualified accounts. I'm not talking about any of that, obviously, that's been going on for years and years and years is there's arguments as to whether or not that really is saving them anything. At the end of the day, we're talking about really taking tax law and the tax code by the horns and saying, hey, the tax code says I can do this, therefore, this money is not taxable. Right. So now that you have this money in your hand, that's not taxable you and you've lowered your adjusted gross income because you took a portion of your money that the tax code says is not taxable because of the way that you've structured it structure that we've just just decreased your taxes and you're like liquid, like the money that you save is liquid, it's in your pocket. If you want to use that for investing you can if you want to use that to recapitalize your business you can if you want to use that to go to Vegas, you can. Grant Yeah, your choice and that's the whole point. It's your choice rather than Uncle Sam. So the strategy seems to be tell me if I've got this right. It's don't fire your CPA because you're going to keep The CPA as a business owner, because you're not the CPA, but what you are bringing is a way to be more productive as you work with the CPA, right, you're bringing in additional knowledge or insight that will then be brought into those conversations with the CPA currently have is that close 100%. Mark And what I always like to tell business owners, and right off the bat is, you know, let's, let's not put your CPA on defense mode, right? They, there's no CPA out there that has the bandwidth, to have this time to vet and research all these different ways to save taxes. I mean, they know a lot, but because they may not know everything that I'll bring to the table, that's okay. So the first thing is make sure that they're not on the defense. And also, I'm not looking to take over any bookkeeping, your tax filing or tax prep, I'm just looking to add additional layers that usually increase revenue for the accounting because it usually does increase their need to maybe have an additional filing each year, or maybe some additional bookkeeping to take to oversee these new solutions.  Grant So it's all day for you as a partner in it, your they don't see you as Oh, I'm here taking business from 100%. Mark Most of the time, when I'm speaking to the right CPAs. And I'm introduced to them by the taxpayer, I get introduced to three or four new clients that the CPA has, because they're like, this is great, I have you know, four or five, or depending on the CPA, they might work with a higher net worth individuals, they might have more, but I like those relationships, because they open the door for more opportunity. Now, I will say there's going to be out of that regard every 10 CPAs, there's two that are for thinking. And there's eight that are really just doing the numbers really doing the prep the recording and filing and prepping. Sometimes the eight, there could be some resistance there. And it's it's, it's only because they don't know what they don't know. So in those situations, hey, I always say it's up to you. It's up to the taxpayer, that you're the decision maker, the CPA is not the decision maker. And I have you know, I never want to pry someone away from their CPA, but if they really liked what I'm talking about under CPAs, just very resistant, doing anything that they're outside of their norm was to have dozens and dozens of CPAs all over the nation that would be very happy to interview you. Or you could interview them because they know the solutions and their clients use them. Grant Yeah, I was gonna ask you. So how does you know? What's some guidance for our listeners on? How do you pick? How do you find those two out of the 10? CPAs? Right? What are some of the key things that someone's looking for? to vet your CPA or while you're searching for someone to say, now you're you're part of the 80%? It's you you're actually not going to help me as much I'm looking for the 20% What What are some tips you have? Mark Yeah, first thing Grant is ask them if they do quarterly meetings. If the CPA or the tax preparer for you is not meeting with you quarterly, they are not forward looking, they're likely going to say hey, let's meet in might not even be before the end of the year, it might be in like January or February to say tell me what you have, is that all the expenses you have? Are you sure because we need to file. But if they even if they're only meeting once per year, at the end of the year, and just trying to figure out, okay, we need to shove a little bit more in the qualified account. And maybe you can have any more, you know, maybe you can buy some more capital equipment. That is not, you know, I'm not saying that's well, let me just say this, that is not the accounting, that that someone needs as they're climbing, the echelon of income, if they're still using that CPA, when they're climbing that income bracket, they are going to be paying retail taxes. When everybody else that has reached that level. When they get to a certain level of of success. They figured out how to pay wholesale sales, no different. There's no different there's a retail price, and there's a wholesale price and the people that pay the wholesale price go above and beyond and look for the coupons where the coupons they're in the tax code. Awesome. The IRS is not saying I'm giving out all day. Yeah, they're not putting a flyer out your mail.  Grant Wait a minute, are you saying there's no mobile app that they could the tax code mobile app with coupons? I think we should build that. That's a great I should yeah, that's my app.  Mark Together Grant. Grant  Let's go build that. I bet there's a market for that. Mark Okay. I would bet there is as well. Yeah, absolutely. Grant I love that idea. Okay, so there's something I saw on your profile that intrigued me many things intrigued me and one of those. I just gotta read this off here. Because when I read it, I was like, Where do I sign? It? It was it was learn how to get the IRS to fund a portion of your retirement 100% tax free. So like, right next to the mobile app. We just talked about developing there's this also. Okay, tell me all right. We want the IRS to fund a portion of our retirement 100% tax free any secrets you can share on that? Mark You know, there's a I'll, I won't give everything away, right? I want people to want to ask me some questions. But I will say this, there's a few different ways to do it. One of the ways is when you find these tax savings, right, when there's that when you're applying the code that's going to basically give you a deduction, right? Because there's codes I can actually, you know, there's a little golf tournament. Here's a nice secret out there. A lot of people know about this, but let's a lot of people don't as well, golf tournament out there. It's been going on for years and years and years. And the winner gets a green jacket. I'm not sure if you're a golfing fan. Oh, sure. Or Yep. If you know, who gets the green jacket every year, you know, there there is somewhere in Georgia and a little town. That's right. And it's a very prestigious golf tournament. So about 60 years ago, the higher net worth individuals that lived around that, that golf course realize that they could rent their homes to the corporation's coming in that were or anyone coming in that wanted to, you know, watch the tournament, and they could rent their homes for significantly more than they would you know, what would cost them to go have a little nice vacation? So in that process, they said, Well, these are our personal residence. This is not a this is not an income property. So they lobby to the their friends and Senate and said, Hey, we're not renting our this is not an income producing property. But we're not getting any deductions on this. We're not getting any tax benefits. But so can we have some benefits. So they basically the Congress, and there's two tax codes that validate this, you can rent your personal residence for up to a certain number of days per year. And the dollars that you receive for that rent is tax free, as long as you don't rent your home for over a certain number of days. Now, here's where it gets fun grant, because some people don't want strangers in their house. Right? So even if they could rent their house for significantly more than they could go do something else. They don't want to Airbnb their house, what if they're a business owner? Well, can they rent their business? Can they rent their house to their business for business purposes? Using the same tax code? Absolutely. Now, we just have to determine what the value is, and put it in your bot and your minutes and ultimately integrate it and know, now when you create those deductions, right? Because if you're renting your house, from your business, and you create a deduction at the business level, but didn't cost you anything at the personal level, or the business level, maybe there's a, you know, maybe the meeting you did was whatever, you know, lunch, well, you just created deductions with no cost, no cost. Now that tax savings now the tax savings is getting to you from that's where you're funding your retirement tax free from the IRS because those that those dollars are non taxable. Now, if you get them into a Roth, if you get them into a cash value life insurance policy, you're never paying the taxes again. So now you're looking at never even paying taxes again after you didn't pay the taxes on it to begin with. Okay, that was one little nugget. Grant That's you know, would you just drop the mic on that? You're not holding in my car? Yeah, yeah. Mark No, but if I dropped it, it might fall off my desk. Grant I might, I might fall off that. Yeah, I tell you, Mark, that that was awesome. Just following that flow of what you articulated. I think that's a beautiful thing. Okay. So let me ask you this. With all that you're doing, and with all that people are coming to you for? How do they engage with you? How do they dial it? How they interact with you? How do they how do they say I'm a good candidate for you? Where do they go to find out more about you? Mark Great question, I always just invite him to my website, Grant, I just PeakProfitSolutions.com. And as you know, peak as in a mountain peak, P-E-A-K Profit Solutions, plural PeakProfitSolutions.com. On that you can have, there's places where you can go get case studies, I click here for some case studies, there's a link that says, hey, book an appointment with me, and 20 It literally only takes me 20 minutes to have a conversation with someone to determine if they're a good candidate for any one of the dozen or more solutions that I can bring to the table. That's really the best thing though, the most important thing to know is, you know, just take a little bit of time, even if it's 20 minute phone call, you don't have to come super prepared. They don't have to come with their entire balance and their their previous tax years and their p&l Like just come and say, This is what I how I'm structured. This is how much I'm making every year. I'm writing a lot, you know, just all they need to do is do that. And I and from that point forward, I can determine right out of the gate if they're a good candidate for the architecture to start. Grnant The tax architect. Mark Architect, tax savings, architecture, tax savings architect good building. That's right. Grant That is awesome. That is awesome. Excellent. Mark, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Mark No, I just appreciate being on the show. Appreciate your, your hosting style, and of course, all the interviews that you've done on your channel so are fun to listen to. So thank you. Grant I'm having fun. It's a fascinating world, right? There's just so many great people doing so many cool things. So when your profile came across me as like, Oh, I gotta talk this guy. He's got some secrets about reducing taxes. Okay, yeah, he's in. So thanks for doing that mark for thanks for taking the time everyone. Thanks for joining another episode of Financial Investing Radio. And until next time, go check out go check out Peak Profits Solutions. Thank you for joining Grant on Financial Investing Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback.  

We've assembled a list of priorities to keep in mind as you count down the days to retirement. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey everybody. Welcome to the podcast. It's retirement planning, redefined with John and Nick and myself talking about the countdown to retirement. What to do on those days, as we're getting closer, working our way towards it. We've assembled a list of priorities to keep in mind, as you are counting down those days to retirement. And we were getting ready to get this podcast started and we were kind of laughing at some of the things that we seem to run out of in this whole supply chain issue, had ourselves a good giggle along the way. So hopefully we'll have a good podcast for you to tune into as we talk about these things, because there's some good stuff on here. And guys at the time we're dropping this, I think we're going to drop this right after Memorial Day if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, it's right around it.   Mark: And Memorial Day is kind of the unofficial kickoff to summer. It's not technically summer yet, right? I think it's what June 20th or something like that. But when we get to 50 and a lot of times, if you want to think about this countdown 50 plus, it's kind of the unofficial kickoff to retirement. We're not actually retired yet, but we start thinking about it, paying more attention to it. So on and so forth. So John, the first one on my list is getting healthy and staying healthy. Many of us develop chronic issues in our 50s. So it's a good time to put some thought onto this so that you can actually enjoy those golden years.   John: Yeah, 100%. I would even because I'm sure, I don't know in the previous podcast I talk about my health issues, but I think it's important for everyone at any age, especially though I will say 50.   Mark: True.   John: Focusing on health and getting to the gym and just do whatever makes you feel good. But when you have an health issue and you can't do the things you were doing, I'll tell you it's quite a, it's a challenge. It's quite upsetting. And I'll say from the clients that we work with, we see a big difference in those that actively in retirement are working out, maybe seeing a trainer a couple of days a week to those that are not. And as you age, I think it's more, it's very important just to stay active because you're not recovering like you were in your 20s.   Mark: No, I think that's a great point. I like that too. Yeah, we should start sooner. Right. But if you kind of want to put a, some sort of a time table or something to it when we get, and it kind of works with our conversation for retirement, just get there, start making some of these changes. So you can really enjoy what we call the go go years. Right. So when we first get to that early days of retirement. And then this is a really big one, we could kind of merge two and three together, but we'll do them a little bit separately, but two Nick, is the free time. Now there's a lot of it. And maybe silver lining in the pandemic has been the fact that many couples got to realize life together, 24/7 working from home, being at home.   Mark: Because that's what retirement is. That's a big shift that we don't often talk about. We put a lot of focus on saying, yeah, we want a big travel and we want to go out and play a ton of golf or whatever. But like there's a lot of free time and you're spending it with that significant other that maybe you guys didn't see each other for eight, 10, 12 hours a day. Now you're together all the time. I don't know how many advisors I talk to where they're like, they have funny stories about one spouse or the other saying get them out of my house. They're driving me nuts.   Nick: Yeah. The time challenge can be significant. I can tell you two things that I would recommend against. And those things would be watching a lot more news and,   Mark: Right.   Nick: Deciding that social media is going to be your new hobby.   Mark: It's not your friend. Right.   Nick: If anything, there's a pretty good documentary on Netflix. I forget what it's called, but it's about social media and really kind of the big data side of things and how the algorithms work and really kind of feed into things. And in general, there's been a lot to handle for people over the last few years with the pandemic and everything else going on. So can not underestimate the importance of having constructive hobbies, doing things that kind of keep you sharp or engaged. And even from the standpoint of being social, things that you can do both alone and with others. The relief that people get from a psychological standpoint of being engaged with others and doing different things, kind of being out and about is really, really important and it's going to help keep you fresh. It's going to help you be able to focus on the things that are important versus the things that aren't, and that you don't have control over. And so, making sure that you're developing hobbies, and we would say that that's even separate from things like travel and that type of thing where,   Mark: Right, right.   Nick: Being inquisitive, doing things that have your brain still working are really important.   Mark: That's a great point. And John, I mentioned blending two and three together. So two was determining what you want to do with your free time. Three, we put post retirement career, maybe career is too heavy of a term, but a post retirement something. Right. Retire away, like if you hate your job, let's just say you despise it and you can't wait to retire and you're leaving with nothing else to go to. Like, I get that frustration, but I think people tend to be happier if they're retiring to something. And maybe that's not necessarily another career, but something like, even if you took a year off and literally did nothing, I'm sure you guys have story upon story of retirees who first enjoy doing nothing. But as humans, I think we crave some sort of structure, something to help us kind of fill the time and fill the days.   John: That's 100%. It's important to really start thinking about that. And I can't tell you how many times we've been in meetings and it's when do you want to retire? And the response is, well, I don't know if I'm ever going to retire, but I want to leave this job at this age.   Mark: Right. Right.   John: So it turns into what am I going to do next? And I think kind of what you said there. My mother watches my kids and that's kind of a level of importance to her and she watches them two or three days a week, and there's actually a study where grandparents that kind of are helping out their children, watch their grandchildren actually live a little bit longer. And I think it's all about that level, feeling important.   Mark: Yeah.   John: So whether that's watching grandkids, my clients had started to be a realtor and they actually end up making more money than they were at their previous job. So whatever it is, it's just making some type of level of importance. Whether it's making money, helping out family, volunteering is just feeling like you got to get up and do something in the morning.   Nick: And a good way to kind of sum that up as purpose.   Mark: Purpose. There you go.   Nick: Purpose. When people feel like they have a purpose for both themselves and those around them, they tend to do a lot better.   Mark: Yeah. No I'm with you there. And we used to retire at let's say 65 and you probably were passing away at 67, right? So sitting on the porch for a year or two and doing nothing felt great because we were tired. We were worn out. The concept of retirement is a little less than a 100 years old. So a lot of stuff is actually changed quite a bit. So a post retirement, something or another post retirement purpose instead of career. I like that. Thanks, Nick. We'll use that. And going forward is a great way to think about that on this countdown days to retirement list. Let's go to number four, Nick. So why don't you throw us some things to think about in the opportunity to save more. Again, I mentioned 50, right? So at 50 plus, some stuff starts to change and there's actually some good time to catch up a little bit or just cycle a bit more away if you need to.   Nick: Yeah. Oftentimes whether it's in their 50s or early 60s, people have, maybe they have children coming off the payroll and they don't necessarily plan to figure out how are they going to be able to recapture some of those dollars that they're used to spending on the kids and kind of help them really build up their retirement and maybe catch up from all those years of taking care of the kids. That can be something that's a big deal. One thing that's come up multiple times in the last, I'd say three to four weeks with what's been going on in the market is, we have clients emailing or calling us asking, Hey, the market's down, should we stop saving? And, the way that we try to kind of explain to people is that markets are cyclical.   Nick: We have had this period of time, 10, 12 years, where the markets have generally gone up and people's conception of what, or I should say, perception of what, typically happens in normal cycles, one to three to four year cycles is a little bit thrown off, but an easy way to think about this is that this is why we have a plan in place. You want to continue to save. And if anything the thought process is that you're buying at a discount from what things were previously. So in a lot of ways, the market's on sale. And so continuing to average in and chipping away and taking advantage of the benefits of being able to save money pre-tax, or those sorts of things is an important thing.   Mark: Yeah. It can make a huge dent, right? We're hopefully making the most money we've ever made and all that good kind of stuff. So 50 plus there's should be some good opportunities to sock a bit more away. And that might help John with number five, which is reducing down the debt. So even if you're not necessarily putting more away into a retirement account, because you've done a good job or whatever, maybe the focus is take some of that extra money with the kids being off the payroll and get rid of some of that, especially bad debt.   John: Yeah. 100%. I mean, with rates being as low as they have been, we have seen a lot of people go into retirement with mortgages, but you're at 2.6%, that's nothing crazy, but let's take mortgage out of it. Other debt definitely recommend trying to get that down and off completely, but get it off your books because when you go to retire, it's a big cash flow, where's your income coming from? Social security, pension, investments. The last thing you want at that point where there's no longer a paycheck coming in is debt. What that's doing at that point, it's really eating into kind of things you want to do, which we talked about for hobbies or enjoyment. And then on top of it, it actually adds some stress level to Hey, I need more income coming in to pay out all these bills and all this debt. So definitely before you hit retirement, it's good to be debt free. It's easier to pay off the debt in your working years than when you're not working.   Mark: Yeah. And on the concept of the house, right, there's always the arguments back and forth there, the different things. So certainly, that can also still be on the get debt free list if you'd like. I don't think it's a bad idea to necessarily get rid of it, but just make sure that you're doing that smartly and not being house rich cash poor as the saying goes or whatever the case is. So just kind of bear that in mind.   Mark: But yeah eliminating, if bought an RV or the big plans where the RV in retirement, maybe getting that paid down, if you bought it a little early or whatever, or boat, or I don't know, muscle car, whatever it might be. Right. Just get rid of the stuff that you've got some debt on. And then Nick, the final one here, number six on the list on just counting down stuff is the risk conversation. So if we're reducing our debt, maybe we ought to also think about reducing our risk. Now last year, people would've said, I'm not reducing my risk, the market's on fire, but right now they're like, okay, well let's maybe reduce the risk. Point being at 58 should we be investing like we're 38?   Nick: Yeah. So risk is an interesting word. And we wanted to take a little bit of time to kind of chat about this because there are different types of risk, and depending upon who you talk to, how they rank the different types of risk via priority is different. So for example, inflationary risk, which is something that we're dealing with right now, that's a risk. So in other words, losing the spending power of our money via inflation is something that we need to keep and take into consideration. However, we're in this kind of perfect storm where taking too much risk, if you're shifting money out of cash per se and moving substantial amounts of money into the market, you're dealing with a significant amount of market risk. And then we have interest rate risk from the perspective of, as they've increased interest rates, that's really pushed down the prices of bonds and bond funds.   Nick: And one conversation that we've been having with people is them not necessarily realizing that the bond market and even if you look at the most general bond index is down almost 10% year to date. And so we've been trying to take a lot of time in one-on-one meetings with people to try to explain how this has an impact and really this is a, with what we're dealing with right now is probably the best case in the last 15 years or so to show people why it's important to be diversified and understand that trying to fully time the market, whether it's from the stock side to the bond side, to the cash side, real estate, et cetera, it can be really tricky. And when things are going great, it's hard to remember that, but right now it's showing us that it's really important to make sure that when we think about our risk, that we're taking into consideration poor times, not just great times and understanding that just because maybe throughout the majority of your investing career, taking less risk has meant, Hey, let's reduce our stock exposure and increase our bond exposure.   Nick: It doesn't mean that that's always going to stay flat or go up, there's risks along with that too. So, diversification, understanding that sometimes we do run across periods of time where we just kind of have to take our medicine where all markets have been up for the most part over the last 12 years. There's going to be times where we run into corrections, which is kind of what we're dealing with now. And we have to be patient and try not to go overboard with overreacting to the short period of time. Sometimes looking at the lens through the last, even one year, two year, three year period of time and realizing that in the scheme of things we need to just kind of stay steady.   Nick: But yeah, in general, I would say that making sure that you kind of do an update on what you feel comfortable with from a risk parameter. Now is a good time to reevaluate that. Because what we have seen is that people have been comfortable with a certain amount of risk over the last 10 years, because things have just been going up. And so now that things aren't just going up, what they thought of risk and how they feel comfortable managing it is substantially different than it has been.   Mark: Yeah. Oh definitely. Our risk tolerance level's been like, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine with the risk. I'm fine. Whoa, wait a minute. I'm not so fine now, right?   Nick: Yeah. The risk over the last 10 years has been okay. I'm okay getting 8% instead of 15%,   Mark: Right.   Nick: Not oh, I'm okay being down negative 11 versus negative 20.   Mark: Yeah. Yeah.   Nick: Everything's been more on the positive side of things and even with COVID, we had the fastest bear market in history where it boomeranged right back up. And so even though that only happened a couple years ago, people have already forgotten about that.   Mark: Oh yeah. Yeah.   Nick: So, yeah. And I can't emphasize enough the importance that this sheds on having a plan and thinking longer term.   Mark: Well, there you go. So that's some countdown items to think about for the days towards retirement, sixth list, list of six things there, excuse me, that you can think about and address towards your retirement strategy. And those are the things that you'll go through when you have a plan put in place when you're working with a team like the team at PFG Private Wealth. So if you're not, then reach out to them and have a conversation, set up some time to get that started, pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com. That's got all the tools, tips, and resources there. You can schedule some time. You can reach out to John and Nick and the team and get started that way. Of course, you can also find the podcast, subscribe to us on whatever platform you like to use there. So you can catch future episodes as well as check out past episodes. Again, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's going to do it this week for the podcast for John and Nick. I'm your host Mark. We'll see you next time on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E21 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: And I'm the other one. Yucca: And this episode, we're talking about adversity. So some of what's going on in the world right now, personal adversity, how we can deal with that, address that, and, really all those topics surrounding that. Mark: Yeah, every week as we talk about what we're going to discuss. The, the challenge of these times really comes to us. And it's not that other times haven't had their own challenges because they certainly have, but the challenges that face these times that we're living in right now are so extreme and so severe. And so ubiquitous that even, even. People who are generally pretty privileged are still impacted by them. Only, only the, the fabulously wealthy are able to sort of skate on being impacted by the things that are, that are putting pressure on us humans, as we try to live our daily lives. And so we thought. That it would be good to kind of come at this head on this week and talk about adversity and approaches to it and how our spiritual and ritual practices can help us with that. And just kind of trying to map out the territory a little bit on what it feels like when you feel threatened, when. When bad things are happening and they hurt and they scare you. And and you're, you're challenged in knowing what to do.  Yucca: Yeah. So one of the things that we could start with is thinking about when you are faced with adversity, with taking a look at. And really honestly, examining what's going on and what components you have control over and which ones you don't, because we can take things really personal sometimes that, you had no control over that forest fire or that hurricane or. Realistically the, the state of the economy, you as an individual, that's what the Stoics would call inconsequential. Right? Not that it doesn't matter, but that you don't control it. You don't have direct influence over it. But there are some things that you do have control over, your responses. Yeah. Mark: Right. And being able to make that differentiation, having the discernment is really important. And some of what's required for that is to be able to step back emotionally a little bit, kind of call them the, the, the panic feelings and, or, or the hurt feelings.  Yucca: Which takes practice. Mark: It does take practice. And, you know, the grounding procedures that we've talked about here on this podcast, many times are super useful for that meditation entering into ritual, trance states. All of those things can really help you with. Being able to step back and take a dispassionate, look as much as possible at the circumstances that you're in and then really try to sift out, Okay. this is stuff I have some impact over. This is stuff that I can influence. This is stuff that's beyond my control. And I, I either that, or it's only very marginally within my control. And so as I approached this adversity, I'm going to put most of my effort into the things that I actually have a lot of influence over. Right. I can affect my own behavior. I can affect my own mentality. And part of what, what is required to get to that decision is to abandon narratives that have to do with personal failure, personal lack of worthiness or, or a general sort of despair at the nature of the world, because all of those are very disempowering. You know, if, if you're, if the place that you're stuck in confronting an adverse situation is why does this always happen to me or It's hopeless. The world is just like that. Then it's very difficult for you to be able to make any changes that are going to improve your situation. So that involves working with that inner critic voice and with your own, self-esteem all the kinds of things we've been talking about throughout this podcast. You know, relationships feed us and the relationship that feeds us more than any other is our relationship with ourselves.  Yucca: Yeah. It's comes from a Christian tradition, but I've always been quite fond of the serenity. And modified it. So the, it goes may have the serenity to accept the things that I can not change the courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference.  Mark: There it is  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Reinhold Niebuhr.  Yucca: Right. And so that was a slightly modified version. Cause I don't want to start with oh God and heavenly father, because I don't think it's coming from anyone else. Right. This is, this is coming from inside. This is coming from us and our, our view on the world and our view on ourselves. But I think it's a really useful framework for that. Mark: And part of what it does is it. It calls on certain capacities within us, that all of us have, right. We all have the capacity to be serene and dispassionate. We all have the capacity to be courageous and we all have the capacity to be. Right. And those are the kinds of things that. we need to bring to bear when we're in an adverse situation. So really at the very beginning, there's that, there's that winnowing out of what can I do and what is unlikely to be influenceable by my actions. And this is a place where we differ quite a bit from. Rest of the pagan community because in the, in the mainstream pagan community where people believe in gods and in literal magic, they think they can influence stuff like decisions in Congress by having, or a decision at the Supreme court, by having a ritual and praying to their gods.  Yucca: Now, I think those things can be influenced, but with act with action, right? Not necessarily ritual.  Mark: Right. And we, in our naturalistic non-ferrous pagan science-based pagan traditions do not believe that we have super powerful beings to appeal to. It's all about us. We're we're here on earth. And when, when these things happen or change, it's going to be because we make them do that. We meaning humanity writ large.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: So this is an important distinction, Right. And to my mind, it's an empowering distinction to often have I heard in the pagan community? Oh, well, that's up to the gods. Which is a dereliction of responsibility. In my opinion, we do have a responsibility for the kind of government that we have. We do have a responsibility for for the kind of world and culture that we're building. And that from everything from the way that we treat one another, all the way to. Our specific activism in favor of policies that are more kind and more inclusive And more just. Yucca: Right. going back to what you, to what we were talking about before, though, another way of talking about this, that is all true, but none of us are the chosen one. Right. There is, there's not a chosen one who we individually are going to make that happen. And because the Supreme court makes the decision that we don't want, that doesn't make it our individual fault that we need to have shame about because we didn't work hard enough. We didn't do enough. We didn't, you know, we weren't enough, enough enough. This is something that we as humanity, we as a community have influence over, but we're members of the community. We are. All of humanity individually. Mark: Yeah. That's the flip side of this is not over imagining the degree of power that you have. Each of us is a powerful person, but we're also just. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And so not having exaggerated or inflated ideas of your own personal influence or underestimated and discounted ideas of your own personal influence, I think is very important. We talk a lot about paying attention. In this podcast, paying attention to the cycles of nature, paying attention to what creatures are, are thriving and living and going through their life cycles at any given time of the year, paying attention to what's going on inside you so that you can grow and learn and and become happier and freer. And. You know, a more actualized person and that kind of paying attention is also necessary when it comes to understanding our limits, as well as our capacities.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Where are we now? We we've talked about adversity and the discernment process. Do we want to go into, then what we can do, having, having sifted out the things that we have influence over?  Yucca: Yeah, I think I mean, there's definitely, there's so many different directions to come at this from there's different kinds of adversity, right? There's, there's personal, kind of individual challenges. There might be the interpersonal relationship between you and your partner or family member, but then there's kind of, there's other scales of things. There's job loss and sickness and. Those sorts of things. And then, and then really big scale things that are impacting everybody with like climate change and fires and hurricanes and, global economics war. So there's all of these different scales. But a lot of the things that we can do. On an emotional kind of spiritual level are going to be very similar responses to those in terms of how we can take care of ourselves. But one of the places we could start with is talking about preparing oneself to face adversities, because we're going to, you don't know what it's going to be in your life. Maybe, maybe you're going to be lucky and it's only going to be. The challenge, interpersonal challenges, right. But maybe you're going to have to evacuate in two years. Maybe there's going to be a car crash and not to be fear-mongering here, but these are, these are possibilities to think about.  Mark: Right. These are things that happen to people. Yucca: yeah.  Mark: And they're the reasons why people buy insurance. The. Where was I going with this? The, the step I think we can take after having made that discernment is to having identified what we don't have much influence over. We don't abandon that. We put it aside. So when an issue like climate change, yes, we don't have much influence as individuals over it. And. Believe me, if you've been sold this idea that it's all up to the consumer to solve carbon in the atmosphere, please disabuse yourself of that because there's about 500 companies in the world that produce something like 70% of the carbon pollution in the world. It's their fault. It's not our fault. And we really need to be active to be reducing those emissions because that's where the big problem is.  Yucca: All right. So, so focusing. Where are the points, where are the places that's going to make the biggest impact, whether it is looking at something like, okay, how do we tackle carbon emissions? Where do we put the majority of our focus? But that could also be okay. My family is going through financial struggles right now. Right? Where can I put my focus in a place that it's going to be the most impacted? Right. There may be some things that you'd normally wouldn't do you normally wouldn't let them have screen quite as much as they're having or something like that, but what what's going to make the big impact. So if I may on just a very practical level, something that actually, this is what we were doing in the house this week. This was our inventory week where we were going through and looking at all the stuff that we have. And we'd like to have about six months worth of, if we couldn't go anywhere for six months, would we have enough water? Would we have enough food? Would we have it? And you know, that took us years to get to that. We didn't just, buy six months of stuff all at once. Cause we, we're low income, tick a lot, but going through and going, okay, what do we need to, what do we need to be preparing for? Right. Do we have, we live in an area that has forest fires. So do we have a bag in the car? That has stuff for everybody, do we know where the, do we know where all our documents are? Do we know where there's cat food? All those things and getting all of that together so that, we don't want there to ever be a situation in which we'd have to stay home for. But Hey, that actually just happened right. years ago, we couldn't go anywhere. Or, we don't want to be in a situation where we'd have to pack up and leave. But if we are, we want to be prepared for that. And not like from a fearful place, right. We don't want to do it as like, oh no, we're scared. Or, that sort of thing, but from a place of, of wanting to take care of ourselves, but also. Wanting to take care of our community from a social responsibility place. Because if, if we don't have to take the resources, there's a limited number of resources for when disasters happen. There's only a limited number of first responders. There's a limited number of that. We don't want to be taking those resources that could be for somebody else who needs it more than us. So I really encourage people to have a little bit, you know, even if it's just a few, just look at. Whatever it is for your situation. Maybe it's just four or five days of water and food, things like that. Do you have a flashlight, those sorts of things, just to be prepared in the case that something happens, you're going to be in a better place. So you have that physical side that we talk about a lot in terms of self care, we talk about the health side, how do you take care of yourself and your household and your, and your community and your, your loved one. Before that all happens. Mark: Right. And I think it's important to notice as we talk about that kind of preparation. That means you're already in adverse. The disaster hasn't happened, but the pressure that the possibility of the disaster puts on you means you're already in a situation where you're dealing with adversity, right? Because if, if unlike either of us, you lived in an area where there wasn't a danger of wildfires, then you wouldn't have to do that kind of prepper. Right. There might be something else like tornadoes or hurricanes or  Yucca: floods  Mark: earthquakes or. whatever. But you you're, you're not concerned about wildfires because that's just not something that happens in your area. So I think that. Being aware of the places where we feel those pressures is really important, you know, understanding, Hey, it's, it's wearing on me that in the back of my mind all the time is this possibility that w is really negative for me. So. I've been talking about this almost a year ago, I lost my job and I've been looking for a job ever since. And just this past week had another job where there were two final candidates and I'm not the one who got the job. And I'll be talking more about that later in the podcast in terms of what I can do relative to what's out of my control. It is in my mind all the time, all the time that we're broke, we don't have money. We, we, we don't know where the money is going to come from to pay for July's rent yet. We, you know, we're in danger and that danger is in the back of my mind all the time. And that's stressful. It puts stress on us. So be aware of the stressors that are in your life, even if they feel like maybe long shots, you feel enough urgency to do some preparation against something happening, it means that it's stressing you. That it's possible.  Yucca: Yeah. So we've been talking a little bit about some of the. Practical things one can do, but there's also the practice side, right? So there is the practice of practicing grounding, right? Really just taking those deep breaths, kind of letting that tension out or whatever it is that you do. Some people use visualization with that, you know, imagining a tree or things like that are very, are very common ones. Getting in the habit of having something like that or having a meditation practice or having your daily moment in front of your focus, those sorts of things can start to build up some emotional resiliency so that when you are facing, whether it's those, those Those kind of in the background, low key ones that we're just talking about, that pressure in the back of your mind of, is there going to be a forest fires are going to be, this is the, the food prices, whatever it is you can be addressing those, but then if something does happen, if you do have to evacuate, if you have lost your job, if you do have that, blow out, fight with your spouse or whatever it is, you've got something that you've been practicing. That you can, that you can go to, that you can use. Mark: It can help bring you back to see. Yes, because we don't make good decisions when we're not centered. And often that can compound a bad situation and make it worse. So you really want not to make decisions when you're in the heat of the fear or the anger. That's just not a good time to be making decisions about how to approach the challenges in your life.  Yucca: Right. Mark: I find that my atheopagan practice serves me in three different ways. As I contend with the adversity in my life. The first is that it helps me feel better connected with nature. And nature is a tremendous solace to me, even though it is, you know, so beleaguered and besieged by all the damage that has been done still, the fabric of life on this earth at some level is thriving. It's, you know, there's still life everywhere. It may not be the life that we would like to be there in terms of endangered species of invasive species and so forth. It's still life and it's still turning its leaves to the sun and making sugar and feeding those webs of life all over the world. And to me, that's a very beautiful thing and it helps give me some perspective about the temporary and small nature of my problem. The second thing that it does for me is direct psychological calming. The, the ritual practices that I have, like, seeing my atheopagan rosary, for example, it's, it's good for my self esteem. It's good for my sense of the world. It's good for my relationship with my fellow humans. It just helps. Those kinds of practices and then the third method. And I think this is something we should expand on a lot is because it makes me a part of a community and. We talk a lot in the United States, especially about how alienated people are in this culture, families, splinter and scattered to the far corners of the country or the world. Families are not particularly intimate with one another. And often in fact, they're really at one another's throats. People don't tend to make friends after school, after college, which is something that was shocking to me because I have lots of friends that I've made after college. But in fact, I don't have any friends from college that that chapter has come and gone, but The sense of being alone against it all is really prevalent in our society. And that's just terrible. The way that humans have contended with every adversity historically through our evolution has been collectively as a group, you know, we've solved problems together. And we've supported one another in solving those problems. And so being a part of the atheopagan community, even though we mostly meet online, that has provided a tremendous sense of belonging and support and shared worldview to me, you know, a common set of values that really. It helps me to feel held and valued and seen all of which are just so important for us psychologically. So, and, you know, being a part of the pagan community generally, which is a, you know, a larger subculture similarly helps me to do that. The. The, the upshot of what I'm saying is that if you, if you're alone, if you're really alone, if you don't have people in your life with whom you can talk about your deep experience, that's something to work on because honestly, that's your lifeline. That's, that's the. That's, those are the relationships that will save you when you need saving and that where you can save them in turn. You know, this is what people go to mainstream religions for all the time. You know, there are plenty of people attending churches out there who are not necessarily believers in either the supernatural stuff in their holy texts or or in the values that are being espoused from the pulpit. But. It gives them a sense of belonging to a group of people who share something in common and can therefore speak a language that alludes to those things that they have in common and share cookouts and picnics and potlucks and study groups. And. All those kinds of things. You know, belonging is so important for us humans and American culture has just shattered us into these individuals. And individualism is a, it's a particularly pernicious aspect of our culture. It's not that it's not that we shouldn't develop ourselves and actualize ourselves. Individually to the greatest degree possible, but we need to do that in the context of a group.  Yucca: Hmm, it's a, how do they say a mixed can, right? It has some really really very helpful, positive things to it. And there's some others, like what you've been talking about this isolation there's, there's a lot that we lose from it too.  Mark: Right. Right. And, and, you know, in its extreme, you know, like political libertarianism, that kind of stuff, it turns into this very adversarial us versus them. You know, kind of mean-spirited, I don't care about you. You've got to take care of yourself, sort of mentality. That honestly doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't serve the people who espoused and it doesn't serve the people who are around them. It doesn't serve the society as a whole. It's just not, it's not helpful.  Yucca: Hmm. So that's one of the things that we can do though, is the seeking and building really growing and cultivating community. And that's something that can be helpful. Before during and after. Adversity. Because some, sometimes there's a lot of, of trauma that you're going to come out with and healing that in recovery that is needed and ritual practice, we talk all the time about ritual on this podcast, right? That's an incredible tool. And then also having that love and support and that sense of belonging that in itself can do so much to. Help with the process. Mark: Absolutely it, and what's amazing is that it can help with the process, even if it's not helping with any of the practical considerations. Like if I go to my community and I say, You know, I'm desperate and I can't find a job. There are some practical things that they can do, like increase donations to my Patrion, which people have been doing lately, which is a wonderful thing. And I'm so grateful to all the people that have pitched in on that. A lot of the things that they can do or things that aren't practical and they're still absolutely important just simply by saying, I see you. I understand your struggle. I, I empathize with where you are. I'm here to hear your, your, your struggle, your sorrow, your fear. I'm here for that. And. Too few of us have that in their lives. I think even within intimate relationships, certainly for men. I mean, I, you know, heterosexual men, I don't think are going to their partners very often and saying I'm scared,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: or I really need  Yucca: done as a culture to our men, I think is just so it's so painful. Mark: It's tragic. It really is. And as somebody that works very hard, not to be a part of toxic masculinity and that's always a work in progress it's like trying to be anti-racist right. It's like, it's you never get there. There's always more to be learned and done. But one of the things that I am very grateful for is that I. I have many people in my life that I can go to, you know, with my deepest feelings and tell them and know that they will be received well. And in the spirit in which they were intended.  Yucca: Yeah, what a difference. Yeah. Mark: it, it makes a huge difference. And I think. You know, I was reflecting on this about the century retreat recently because I've particularly a couple of men who were there, were talking about it afterwards as an unprecedented experience for them. And I believe that part of the unprecedented experience was the degree of personal disclosive, Venice. The people were sharing their, you know, the degree of emotional openness. And I just think that's sad and what's w and what's hard is then they have to go back to their lives where they don't have that.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And I just feel like there's so much work to be done. But it can be done so much more effectively if we do it together. And that's why I invest a ton of effort in building community. Like-minded community, because if we can rally around a set of understandings of the nature of the world and values that we consider to be just in kind and, and right. And practices that we share together in order to enjoy and, you know, contend with this complicated life, then I think we're really getting somewhere. And that's why I do this podcast. It's why I do a lot of things. It's, it's why I'm in the nonprofit sector. Professionally, because I want to contribute to a society that is kinder and more just, and more sustainable rather than making widgets or selling widgets or transporting widgets. So. Processing widgets. So I just drew a complete blank. I had something and it left. I hate it when that happened.  Yucca: You had mentioned wanting to talk about your bigs. Mark: Oh yeah. This is something that occurred to me. It's gotta be more than 10 years ago now. I was thinking about wisdom and wisdom is an awkward word. I've, I've actually, I'm working on I've been working for more than a year on a blog post that will eventually be published about wisdom. Wisdom is an awkward word because it's kind of cringy. When we talk about wisdom, people get uncomfortable. They're like, oh, wisdom, you're going to whip some wisdom on me. It's used more sarcastically than anything else, but the truth is that as we age, as we grow, as we have experiences, as we learn things, as we discover more about ourselves, we become wiser. We become. Better able to make the Right. decision to say the right thing at the right time to extend the right kind of kindness to another person and to live our lives in a manner that facilitates our happiness and our growth rather than contravening it, or fording it. It occurred to me that much of my perspective on the world comes down to three axiomatic, big things. And I'll explain what those are now. And I, I just believe that if you can really get at a deep level, these three big things, your life just gets a lot better. So here they are. The first. The big. Okay. And the big, okay. Is simply acceptance of the world as it is. This world is filled with beauty and horror and everything in between. And at some level we have to stop resisting it saying, oh, I wish it were this way. Or I wish I'd done that. Or. You know, you didn't do that. You did something else and the world isn't as you wish it is as it is. And at some level we simply have to accept it in order to be able to encounter it and navigate through it. Now that doesn't mean that we have to accept all conditions. We can still struggle for justice and for equality and for kindness and for sustainability. All of those things are important. So I'm not saying, you know, that in this very Buddhistic sort of sense. We should just, you know, have universal acceptance of everything as it is, but we have to at least acknowledge the fact that that's the way it is. Right. We have to, you have to at least cop to the fact that, you know, like it or not, Donald Trump was elected president. You can argue about what the electoral college process is and all that, but like it or not, that's a fact. So that's the big, okay. And the next is the big, thank you. Which is gratitude for having been gifted. Highly improbable life that each of us has, the odds are astronomically against any one of us in our unique genetic combination and epigenetic experience of being raised would become the person that we are. And it is a treasure. It is the treasure of our existence. And so being able to get to a point of gratitude and seeing all of the many, many, many gifts of beauty and grace and generosity and kindness that we experience in our lives, everything from somebody moving over on the freeway to let you into a lane. To the blooming of a rose in your flower garden in, you know, on a given day.  Yucca: Well, and all the billions of things that you have, that, that died for you to be alive. Right? All the, every little sprout you ate every animal, every egg, every, all of it. Mark: All those sacrifices. And so thank you. Thank you to all of those things. Thank you to everything that contributes to my being here and thank you for all the things that helped to make it beautiful. So that's the big, thank you. And then the last of the three big lessons that I think that if you get them deeply, it helps you to be. A happy person on a path that that will help you to grow consistently is what I call the big. Wow. And that's just all at the nature of the universe. It is in and of this world, particularly the biosphere, it's just all inspiring that this is going on.  Yucca: Yeah. Look at your hand. That's exploded star.  Mark: Yep. It is.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And it's got a a condensed ring of exploded star around it, of supernova product, because you don't get gold without those kinds of pressures. Yeah. The big, Wow. is something that I come back to again and again, and that feeling of awe is. Well, we named the podcast after it, the wonder, right? If you're missing that in your life, go find it because this is amazing. All of this that's going on is just amazing. And you know, I was a pretty depressed kid, but I remember at four years old going to the grand canyon because. Oh my God. Oh my God. The grand canyon. And there's no image that can do it. Justice.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's just simply our inspiring. It. It is, it is breathtaking.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So those are my three big keys to finding a way to settle into life where you don't feel like. Where you don't spin your wheels on hypothetical's. You know what, if I had done this, what if, what if life weren't like this? What if this person wasn't like that? You know, that's a lot of energy that you can burn on stuff that just makes you feel bad.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And my atheopagan practice helps bring me into contact with those three lessons a lot. I feel a lot of gratitude in relation to my connection with other people in the community and my my conversations with you and my The, the welcoming that I receive for my, the products of my creative gifts there, and just the simple listening and being there, and the fact that I can help to hold a space where new people coming in feel welcome. And at home. There's this something really lovely about all of that when I'm doing my daily ritual or celebrating one of the Sabbaths around the wheel of the year. A lot of what I reflect on is that, that sense of, okay. Thank you. Wow. Yucca: Yeah. Well, I think that, that those three big, those three bigs, the, okay. Thank you. And wow. Are a good place to wrap up for today.  Mark: Okay. Okay. There's, there's so much more to be said about circumstances of adversity and we're all feeling it. Honestly, we've got COVID we've got the rise of this. The mean-spirited right-wing, which has infiltrated our Supreme court and is threatening to take our rights away. We've got severe economic dislocation and many people are really struggling economically, including me. We've got We've got issues of systemic racism and systemic homophobia and systemic transphobia that continue to burn in our culture and stubbornly do not go away. There, there, there is adversity in the world there and it's  Yucca: of that. Okay.  Mark: yes, yes. Not okay. In that, I think this is acceptable.  Yucca: We're not condoning it. Mark: No, but okay. As in, yes, I recognize this as true.  Yucca: All right here. It is right  Mark: now. What, are we going to do? Yeah.  Yucca: yeah. What, what, what can I do as an individual and what can I not? And the part that I can't that's okay. Right. Not as a way of making an excuse to not be active, but, but understanding that we're, again, we're part of this community, we're part of the system. We are the entirety of it. Mark: Yes. Yes. And when I, I, I will say this when contending with adversity that threatens your survival, it. isn't reasonable to expect somebody to drop everything and go advocate on climate change. Because you have to eat, you have to be sheltered. You know, you, you have to take care of your family. We understood, you know, we understand all of that. It goes to Maslow's hierarchy of values and all that kind of stuff. Right. S creature, and that includes humans will pursue its survival before it pursues other goals. And that is part of what is really challenging about the climate change issue, because in late stage capitalism, where all the resources have been sucked up to the 1%, everybody is struggling and they don't have the bandwidth to address the crisis that's in front of us.  Yucca: Yeah, which ironically is what it's going to make it a lot harder down the line for all of us. Right.  Mark: so kudos to everybody. That is a climate activist. Thank you. Thank you for all the work that you do and to the elected officials that are on the right side on that issue worldwide. But also don't beat yourself. That you're not solving the world's problems when you have your own problems directly in front of you. it's not helpful and it's not kind to yourself. And if, if you don't take anything away from this podcast episode, other than this be kind to yourself. So thank you, Jaco. Yucca: Thank you. Mark: a good conversation. Yeah.  Yucca: next week we will be back already with our it will be our souls to sewed, right. Mark: Yeah. The Midsummer episode, for sure.  Yucca: Cause we always try and get it the week before. So it's not the episode isn't coming out the day of. So, that gives people time to kind of think and reflect on what they, what they want to do and all of that. So, We're halfway through.  Mark: Yeah. Amazing. We've reflect we've remarked on this before how the last two years seem like they're simultaneously 30 years long and like, they just went by in an eye blink. It's  Yucca: yeah, Mark: very odd. Weird. Anyway, folks, thank you so much. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye.  

They say if it's not broken, don't fix it. So why are we running tests on tests on tests that aren't business-critical? There's an art to testing beyond just striving to get 100% coverage. In fact, over-testing can actually hamper your progress more than help it. Meanwhile, Chuck's wondering why it's not possible to have a union of enums in GraphQL. In this episode, Chuck and Robbie discuss some tech frustrations, lessons for the React community, why Ship Shape implemented spam traps, and a whatnot on all things alcohol, sports, Friends, and Robbie's (seemingly endless) truck saga.  Key Takeaways [01:50] - A lengthy whiskey review.  [22:53] - Why getting carried away with tests becomes your downfall.  [34:50] - Why Chuck thinks these tests in the React community are useless.  [38:16] - Chuck's GraphQL confusion.  [40:49] - A browser bug Chuck noticed.  [44:09] - Robbie's non-sponsored plug. [44:50] - A sports-themed whatnot and an update on Robbie's truck saga.  Quotes [26:52] - “There are things that warrant tests and things that don't and there are good best practices for writing them.” ~ @rwwagner90 [33:44] - “Sometimes people will just chase the goal of as close to 100% coverage as possible and then you end up with a bunch of egregious tests along the way.” ~ @CharlesWthe3rd [34:00] - “You need to test what's business-critical. You can do the other tests if you have the time. But there were a lot of tests that really didn't even check anything. And it's kind of arbitrary — you got that coverage, but you weren't doing anything.” ~ @rwwagner90 [36:32] - “Cypress is a great example of having integration testing in context where you can get visual progression testing too so [you] have some understanding there.” ~ @CharlesWthe3rd Links Maker's Mark No. 46 Maker's Mark Cask Strength Maker's Mark Private Selection Woodford Reserve Jack Rose Dining Saloon The FRIENDS Experience  Mocha Jest Ember.js Slack reCAPTCHA React Cypress  Facebook Vite  GraphQL Chuck on Twitter Elon Musk Starlink Netlify  Middesk QuickBooks Walkabout Mini Golf on Oculus Quest Holey Moley Steph Curry  Topgolf Rivian Connect with our hosts Robbie Wagner Chuck Carpenter Ship Shape Subscribe and stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Google Podcasts Whiskey Web and Whatnot Top-Tier, Full-Stack Software Consultants This show is brought to you by Ship Shape. Ship Shape's software consultants solve complex software and app development problems with top-tier coding expertise, superior service, and speed. In a sea of choices, our senior-level development crew rises above the rest by delivering the best solutions for fintech, cybersecurity, and other fast-growing industries. Check us out at shipshape.io.

In this episode of Financial investing radio, I speak with the person that introduced overnight trading to the financial markets. He will give you some guidance on how to build your wealth, I speak with The Wealth Architect. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial Investing Radio. Okay, so today I have in the house, it's taken me a couple of tries here actually, literally, to catch Mark Yegee with me here today, longtime expert in the investing world. So grateful that he took the time to come here today and talk with us and share some of his secrets on how to grow your wealth. In fact, I think he's known as The Wealth Architect anyway, without me saying anything else. Mark, welcome. Mark Well, thanks. I'm not I'm not sure I like the title of longtime expert. But you know what, I guess it goes with the territory. But thanks. Great to be here, Grant, and I can't wait to get into what we do and what you do and have some fun with your audience. It should be great. Grant Yeah, thanks again. I appreciate that. So one of the things that caught my eye when your organization reached out and I was reviewing your profile, I just have to start here. There's this tip here about you getting into this world into the investing world at the age of 12. I mean, holy smokes at the age of 12. I was milking cows and hauling hay. I mean, there was not a stock market in sight. So I asked you, I mean, the only stock I saw had horns, right. And where I was milking it. So you know, if you'd have said, How's the stock market? We're like, well, we got, you know, 50 cows in the pasture, but like, What are you talking about? So, how did you get into this at 12? Mark Well, you know, my dad was a grew up on a farm. I didn't, I grew up in the city. And so I you know, I mowed my yard and cleaned my pool and got paid to do that. And every day, I would see my dad reading the Wall Street Journal, and it had all these symbols in it with numbers by them, and he would circle stuff. And I was so curious about what he's doing. And finally, one day, I'm like, Dad, what are you doing? I think it's like you thought I was ready. And so he said, Oh, this is how you invest in other people's businesses. And I was like, Oh, great. So over time, he started to kind of teach me that, you know, you're running your own business, doing your lawns, but you can also go out and invest in other people's businesses. And I thought that was fascinating. And after a while, after maybe a couple of months of telling me about it, he goes, but the only way you're gonna learn it is to take some of your money and put it in and I did. And so my first stock, I think it was 12 or 13 years old. It was right around that time. It was it was 100 shares of a company called Ailey company. Grant I've never heard of, I haven't heard of them. Mark No, I don't think they're around anymore. But they were they was this women's clothing store in the malls. And it fit all the criteria. Low P I mean, my dad taught me a few things. And it was alphabetical that I went, you know, I finally went, Hey, here's one. So I circled it. And I bought, you know, $300 worth of that stock was 100 shares at three bucks. And I just would watch it every day. And I was fascinating. Oh, there's the new print on it. And there's a new price. And the stock went to $6. So it's it was probably the worst thing that could ever happen. It's like, it's like when you grab the golf club and you hit it right down the middle. You think you're a good golfer? This is easy, right? It's as easy as like this, you know, or if you go to play craps and you hit it on the first you know, first dice roll. And so I I invested again, I saw commercial on TV, you know, and it said us, it said Allegheny Airlines is becoming US Airways or us there. I think it was at the time. Yeah. And I was like, Wow, what a cool name for an airline. And I you know, that was the only reason yeah, I think it might have might have met some of the other criteria as well. So I bought it and it went from 17 I remember to 35 so I doubled it again, which is probably the the next worst thing that could have happened but now I'm like, this is a piece of cake plus I don't even have to work the money is doubling and yeah, anyway, so you know, I guess I could buy more candy than I could. But that was it. That was the beginning and then he started intermediate. introducing me to books. My dad was a big Personal Growth Guy. So I had read, I had read books, you know, by Dale Carnegie very early on, I read books by Edward Thorpe McShane, the business who wrote a book called, oddly enough, he wrote, this first book was called beat the dealer need to deal with a guy who was an MIT professor. So he taught math at MIT. And he went to Las Vegas, and he figured out how to beat the roulette tables. And they, you know, he had another guy helping him and this was kind of a rudimentary metric computer in the 50s. And he figured out where the ball was coming out, and how quickly it was anyway, he figured out a way to get the probabilities in your favor, and he started to beat the roulette tables, and they kicked him out of Las Vegas. So he went back, and then he figured out well, I'm going to figure it out on Blackjack, and you've heard the story, there's been a movie made about him. Is that the movie? 21? Yeah, yep. All these kids went to MIT, you know, the students. And he brought them they all cleaned Vegas out and then finally got kicked out of that. And then he turned his his efforts to the market. And then he wrote a book called beat the market. And it was basically how to buy a stock and sell the warrants against the stock, which today are basically known as options. They're still warrants, but most people don't know what they are. And it was covered. It was a system of covered calls before they even had options. They didn't have options until 1971 or 1974, I think. And so but I was fascinated by because my dad was like, Oh, you got to learn this. And it was this thick book. It was really boring. And but I, I started to apply it. And I applied it so much that when I was 16 1718 years old, by the way, I bought my car with the winnings and the monies that I made in that those first few investments. I set up a brokerage firm at EF Hutton and my dad had this old timer broker. And I said okay, Harry, I want to buy 100 shares of IBM and I want to sell the you know, the call options against it. And he's like what? So we had to call in New York and get the options principal from EF Hutton on. And he understood why zoom, but my broker didn't even understand I did teach him what I was doing. And so all through high school and college... Grant And this was a high school you did that you sold your first in high school high on IBM? Mark Yeah. So IBM, and this is back when you pay a commission of $300 to do IBM. And they had quarterly options. And you know, the different it was a different game. And now we have so many more tools that are at our disposal. That's great. So yeah, I did this all the way through college. And finally, you know, I had several different entrepreneurial ventures and then I actually sold copiers, which for me was the worst thing. Anybody. Grant Like they just sort of jumped into the white when you're selling options, and you went from that to copiers. What happened? Mark? Mark Well, I mean, when I went to college, I didn't think that making money in the stock market was going to be on my my career. So I went to college. I got a marketing and business degree, and everything was hunky dory. And then I got out and pretty. I I started an entrepreneurial company in college. I was back when the Swatch watches were this big craze. Oh, yeah. And you remember those people put 10 Swatch watches on their wrists? Yeah. And I thought, Well, I went to the University of Florida and I thought why isn't there a swatch watch with a gator on it? Like a University of Florida Gator, you know? And, and I went to the I went to the, you know, the alumni office and I said, Can I license the gator. And this was back before the internet. This was back really? Right around the time faxes were becoming popular, but still pretty early back in. In 1980. What was this 85? Yeah. And they licensed the Florida Gator trademark to me. And I figured out a way to get to Hong Kong. I had no money at all. And when I was a junior and senior in college, I went to Hong Kong and I met manufacturers and I figured out a way for them to put the gator on these watches that I wear orange and blue the color the exact colors of the school. Yeah, and I brought back these you know, 2000 watches are added, manufactured and shipped. And I had them in my college wasn't my dorm room was my fraternity. I lived in the fraternity house last semester. And so I had them stacked floor to ceiling all these watches, right? So I go to the games, and I would sell these things and and I learned a lot about a lot, right? Traveling, manufacturing business, you know, buying good quality products versus crappy products. And I expanded to 23 schools in the southeast and finally just got out of that business about four years later. And then I sold copiers after that. And I that was miserable. But it was that was again instructive. And then finally I I said why I've been doing the market all these years. Why don't I just go do that? Amazing. Yeah, I got a couple of I got a job with a guy named Ernie Ollie who had already discount old discount stockbrokers. It was a discount broker like, like Charles Schwab, they were actually good buddies and they started when those got deregulated in the 70s. And I worked for Ernie for or a year and a half, two years, something like that started my own brokerage firm with a partner. And then we grew that to a to a pretty big venture became a Wall Street company that applied to do this financial technology, I could bore the I could bore you with all the little stuff that I've done in between. But it all has led me to this spot where I had a, you know, a big trading firm, Wall Street trading firm. And we traded, you know, billions of dollars worth of securities. Grant  I saw that, that's well, and did I read it right? That did you guys introduce after hours trading? Is that true? Mark Yeah, that was actually my idea. And everybody thought I was crazy at the time. But I thought, you know, we have this system that all we do is if somebody wants to buy and somebody wants to sell, our system was a computerized system, they just matched those sellers. And I said, why does that have to stop at four o'clock? Why Can't We? If somebody still wants to put the order on? What can we do it a 401? And then if we can do it a 401. Why can't we do it at 601? And then why even shut the thing off? Let's just let it run all night. It happened automatically anyway. And so yeah, we introduced after hours trading in 1999, I believe. And I was on NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw. And you know, a few things. Grant And then, and you're now you're talking to me now how am I now? Mark And now I've moved up to talking to you. Yeah. Grant Wow, you finally got up to Grant Larsen. I mean, Tom Brokaw, it's been a long time coming! Mark So just a stepping stone. You know, you got to stand on the giants that came before you gotta get to the grant Larsen. So. But, uh, but I'm glad to be talking to you. Because you know, everything that I've done in my life has led me to this exact point. And that exact point is now where I have a few hedge funds that I run. They're all based on all these mentors and all of them knowledge that I learned over the last 45 years. And now we help people call, you know, make what we call Safe, reliable income. Although if you look at it today, with this market, it's not safe, reliable income today. Grant Yeah, I turn my head and I'm looking at it that can you say sell off? Mark Yeah, don't don't even look. It is a light volume sell off. So I believe that there's a bounce coming in a couple of days. But boy, it's, it's painful for a lot of people right now. It's, you know, people think you just buy a stock and you hold it. And that's the way you invest. And then you get these 25% corrections in the market. And people's 401 k's are decimated, they go to 5060 70%. Yeah, it's just a shame. It's just a shame. Grant Ever since November, I saw got it at the end of last November on my systems and went, Okay, I'm gonna start preparing to hedge here. So I've just been building my hedging positions since then. And yeah, we've had some interesting volatility a couple times. But right now it's down hard for sure. Mark So it's horrible. Yeah. And you if you started in November, you probably if you correlate it, it's the exact day that Jerome Powell from the Fed said, we're going to start to raise rates. And from that point, we're down about 27 28%. And some stocks. I can tell you some stocks are down 50%, 60%, 70%. Grant Yeah. Facebook and others. I mean, they're down like massive 5060 out, yeah, Netflix got hammered with your training thing. And, yeah, just a lot of them are down really soon. Mark But it doesn't have to be that way. Right. Like, you know, a lot of people just don't know what they don't know. And we tell people that they can make two to 4% a week. Now, that doesn't always happen. But our goal is just like that analogy that I threw out before about the craps table. It's, it's to get the odds on your side, right? Yeah, I mean, I know, it's this is not gambling. But if you use gambling as an analogy, you can understand it better. If you're sitting around a poker table like Annie Duke or Phil Ivey or those guys that are on, you know, the the World Series of Poker, they don't win every hand. But if you have a pair of aces, you have the odds in your favor. If you stay in, unfortunately, sometimes three kings comes up and your opponent has a king, and then you lose, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have been in the game. So what we try to do is we try to create safe, reliable income by renting stocks, to other people that are going to our B that are willing to gamble and pay us a premium for having the option to buy our stock. I can explain that a bit more with an analogy, if you if you want to hear it, but that's really what we do. Grant And I'm selling options, then that's that's your main strategy. Mark Yeah, yeah, we buy we buy a good solid stock. So we have, we have a system called the cash flow machine, right? We call it the cash flow machine because you you put cash in, and then it gives you cash out more cash. And that's it's, it's a system that creates income, using what we call the four cornerstones it's the right stock, not just any stock, the right market, because you want the tailwind to be behind you. So we use a component of market timing and does help and then it's got to be the right spot on the chart. And usually you can find a high probability spot on the chart where this were the end institutions are behind the stock exchange in the right direction. Yeah, and we don't want to be against the institutions. That's the big money, right? We're little people. Yeah. So we want to be with them. And we can see where they are, they leave footprints on the chart. And then we go in that direction. And then the fourth Cornerstone is we squeeze the juice or we collect the rent. And that's the option premium that we get for selling upgrades and income. And it's a defensive strategy that we make, you know, two to 4% a month, conservatively. Grant Now, there's, you know, there's obviously a fair amount of margin that's needed in order to do this kind of thing. So you typically need to have fairly decent size accounts to do some of that stuff. What what's sort of the entry level that you see most of the people come in at how much is what sort of account size or capital do they need to have? Mark Well, it depends, we have a breadth of options that you can use so so I have a hedge fund that I run using this strategy for accredited investors, people that are worth, you know, more than a million dollars, you know, rich guys, basically, but not everybody qualifies for that. And I want to do whatever I want to make this accessible to everyone. So we have a set of courses. And we have my favorite thing is a mastermind group. And so the mastermind group is around a series of courses, and their video courses over my shoulder, I show you how to do the trading and you and you understand the philosophy behind it. And I give you the whole strategy. And then it's also surrounded by a full ecosystem of support. So we have like minded people that are also giving you support people that have just gone through the learning that you've gone through, you get mentorship from me, and I've got, you know, for decades of doing similar things in this, you get, you'll actually get something called the private access group where I put out the actual trades I do in my hedge fund. So you can learn from them, mimic them, do them, you know, do subsets of them, whatever. And then on Friday, and again, this was what I was alluding to a bit ago, on Friday, we have a mastermind call where we all get on a zoom call, some of us will share our screen show the trades we're making, I'll usually teach a concept about the current market or something, you know, that we should know. And then we hold each other accountable through a chat group all week, like, Hey, what are you doing? Who's doing what during the Fed announcement? Why are we you know, selling, you know, the Tesla when Tesla's coming out with numbers, you know, things like that. So to answer your question, that mastermind group, it's an investment in yourself, I give a money back guarantee, if you don't make enough money to cover the tuition because it's not a it's not a small amount. But it is the small amount of it's an investment in yourself, and you make it back with your investments. But in order to, for me to feel good justifying that you need about $150,000 to 2 million as a minimum, Now, not everybody has that. And I've had people that just you know, take the courses and do extremely well with five or 10 or 15,000. But they're not going to afford to be in the mentorship program, and the mastermind group and all that kind of stuff. But they can take the courses. And so we have a full breadth of offerings for people just so that we can they can learn it. I also have a free course on my on my website that you can sign up to take that kind of introduces you to the concept of what we do. You know, we got all kinds of stuff. My goal is Grant, it's financial education, right? We don't teach people about money in school. We just don't Yeah, it's it's not at all. I don't know about you, but I use money every day. I don't use Romeo and Juliet every day. And I don't use the Pythagorean Theorem every day. Grant One I don't use while shopping the grocery store. Okay. Mark I haven't used the Pythagorean Theorem, I don't know in at least a week. Yeah. And, you know, I don't learn I don't know much about you know, I don't use Cleopatra, and Henry the Eighth and his wives every day, but boy, I use money, it would be nice to know, would have been nice to know without having to go outside and learn how to buy houses in real estate, how to invest in the stock market, how to do my taxes would have been nice to have learned a little something like that. Yeah. So I believe that that's the biggest thing that people can do is they can invest in themselves by getting financially educated. And so that's part of that's a little part of what I do in the world is is help people with that. Grant So it's interesting that you're making this available to a wide range of people regardless of where they are right certainly you've got the capabilities to help those that are accredited, but for the person that's just trying to get going I mean, you walked that journey so you understand that and therefore you're made this available to them to help them ultimately get there are you positions intended to be longer term Are you have sort of a timeframe Are you more like a swing trader? Are you sort of long term Are you did sort of break it up you got portion of the portfolio's shorter term and some sort of longer term investment What's What's your philosophy on that? Mark Well, I can give you the short answer or the little bit longer answer that has some more depth let me give To the longer answer, since we got a nice podcast format going here, the longer answer is that everybody says, oh, you should be diversified, right. And to most people who are uneducated, don't have the financial education that we should have. They're educated by Wall Street. And Wall Street is run by two groups, lawyers and salespeople. And so lawyers are there to not get the firm sued. And for that, they've put you in average investments, because how can you get sued? How can you sue anybody if you just did an average return, and the salespeople are there to grab assets and a lot, the more you assets you grab, the more they pay the salesperson, but the more the firm can trade of that money and make money on it. And so what they want what we hear, and I was a Wall Street guy, so I can say this, is they want you to be diversified. So they tell you put your portfolio in a nice little portfolio of mutual funds and ETFs, a couple of stocks, and you know, maybe some bonds and you won't get hurt, right? And you get this average low returning 8% thing that you feel great about because woohoo. But that's the average, right? The s&p 500 over the last 500 year or sorry, 100 years, has made 9.4%. So if you're doing around nine point you do 9.6%, you're feeling really good about yourself. But you know, I did a study, exactly. You pat yourself on the back, right. But I did a study a few years ago, and in 2000, I think it was 13 and 14, or might have been 14 or 15. I can't remember but doesn't matter the years, the the stock, the stock market did about 28% or the s&p 500 Dow about 28% during those two years, but the top 10 stocks did 185%. So what you're doing when you diversify is you're you're supposedly spreading out your risk, but you're also muddying up your returns, you're taking the good returns, and you're making them crappy returns by some stocks even went out of business and the s&p 500. And the rest are kind of in the middle, just kind of figuring it out. Because not everybody can win. So why not just invest the top 10. Right. And easier said than done, of course. And so what we do is it's a probabilities game, we we you know, when you and I if you buy a stock, and I know you're a futures guy, too, but if you buy a stock or a future or an option, or any kind of investment, you've got a 50% chance of being right at the moment that you do it, yeah, you have a 50% chance of being wrong. Yeah, because there's a smart person on the other end that's got the other side of that trade, and they got a 50% chance. So it's whatever you do after it. So what we do is we we try to find the right stock stocks that are trending up, have above average return on investment, return on equity, earnings per sales, growth, per share growth, sales, growth, those kinds of things, great, great products. That's that, that gives us a little bit of an edge maybe takes us to 52%, then we try to find the right market, because 70% of the stocks performance, it comes from the performance of the market itself. So whatever. So they're in, right, whatever. And then sector performance is 38% of the stocks performance, right. So you're now you're adding you're stacking these, these percentages 52 to 54, maybe 5556, then you find the spot on the chart where it's about to break out or where there's institutional support, or it's bouncing off the 200 day moving average of the 50 day, there are spots on the chart that statistically over the last 120 years on on the right stocks seem to be where that they are going to support the stock. So now you're inching your probabilities up, you never get to 100%. But if we can get to 6070 80%, great, then what we do is we create income from the stock. Now, I don't know if your audience wants me to get wonky with statistics, but I'll give you one more. Okay, go for it. All right, here we go. When you buy an option, and an option is the right to do something, but not the obligation to do something at a certain price before a certain time. When you buy an option, you have an 80% chance of losing all of your money. 80% Wow, that's statistically what it is 80% chance, all options expire, without the buyer making money 80% of the time, because there's no free lunch. But there's also the other side of the trade, Somebody sold that option to the buyer. Well, if somebody's losing money, 80% of the time and they're the buyer, what do you think's happened on the other side of the trade? Grant I mean, someone's got 80% wins.  Mark Yeah. And that's right, it approaches 80% Doesn't always happen. But it does have the statistics in your favor. Because when you sell an option, you always pocket to time premium. And this is what we teach in the course of of how that works and what that is, but you always get the timeframe, you always get the amount that the gambler is willing to risk to have certain amount of time to be able to do something because they're getting leverage. And you know, you want me to give an analogy so I can tell you kind of what we do. Go for it, mark. So most people understand real estate way better than they understand these intangible pieces of paper. They're not even pieces of paper anymore in the stock market. So imagine you open up your window and your front door. And you look out the front door. And there's a vacant lot across the street that your your other neighbor, your friend Jim owns, right? And Jim puts up sign on it says For Sale $100,000. Right. And so Wow, you got your neighbor's got his one acre lot across the way for $100,000. And let's say this other guy, Bob is driving down the street. But Bob heard that there was a Hilton going to be put right up next to Jim's lot. And it's going to make Jim's love worth, not just 100,000. But since it's going to be this Hilton resort, it's going to be put there, it's gonna be worth a million dollars. Yeah, problem is Jim's broke. He doesn't have $100,000 or not, Jim, but Bob, the guy driving down the street. Yeah. But he goes to Jimmy stops his car and he finds Jim in front of the lot. They're, you know, cleaning it up getting ready to sell. And he says, Hey, I'll tell you what, I don't have the $100,000 to give you right now, you know the to buy the property. But I do have this $10,000 Can I give you the $10,000. And all you have to do is promise to take it off the market and not sell it to anybody else. You get to to keep the $10,000 for doing that. But anytime in the next six months, you have to sell it to me for 100,000. And Jim, the guy selling it goes, Wait a minute here, hang on a second, I get to keep the $10,000 I take the property off the off the market, and you're gonna buy it from me for the same price I'm asking anyway, sometime in the next six months. And if you don't I still keep the 10 Grand. And Bob goes, Yeah, that's the deal. And they shake hands and you make that deal. And they write up a contract. Now a couple of things can happen. One thing is Bob could have been right, and there's a big Hilton, they make an announcement. There's a big thing in the paper Hilton to buy, you know, the lot next door to Jim. Yeah. And now. Now Bob took his $10,000 investment. And now he turned into a million dollars. Yeah, he made a high huge amount of reward for knowing about that rumor. As you and I both know, information is not perfect on Wall Street. Yeah, it was a rumor. And it never even happened and nothing ever happened in the next six months. And there's no announcement. And so the the option expires, Jim kept the $10,000. Yeah, so now that now he's got a $90,000 basis in the property, let's call it Yep. And Bob lost the whole $10,000. So Bob had high risk, because he lost it all. But he could have made a killing. But Jim made the $10,000 no matter what. And he could turn around and find another Bob and sell it to another Bob for 10,000. and another and another another. So to answer your question, what we do is we find a position that we like, like I said, it's the right stock. And then we do the same exact thing in a stock market. So we find a position like Tesla right now is the big one. We're all in. We were an app a lot of a sudden Apple still to some of us traits and Apple, we have these great stocks like Nvidia and Microsoft and you know, the big ones. And there's certain criteria that they fit because this doesn't work for every stock. And then we just find a gambler out there like Bob that was driving down the street that thinks he knows more than everybody else. And he wants to give you some money in order for you to take that stock off the market and sell it to him at a certain price. Before that happens, and we do it weekly and monthly. We don't wait. Okay, we do weeklies, yeah, we do weeklies and people are paying a lot of money to have the option for a week to buy a share at Tesla. In a week that goes up, you know, they'll they'll pay you 20 bucks for a week for the stock to go up another $20 plus more.  Grant So it's really high at that point to write on those weeklies so yeah, it is yeah, yeah, it is. Mark So it's, it's, it's and it works. I can tell you some stories about some of the people in our program, and a lot of people are, you know, physicians and the physicians are. This is funny, funny to me. I didn't know this grant, but a lot of physicians just don't like being physicians, not because they don't like helping people, because that's what they really do. They just don't like the politics. Oh. So they don't want to be told when to be at work. And they don't want to be told the politics and other things they have to write up in the computer education, they have all this stuff. And so they can't wait to retire. And I always say why well wait till you're 65 and your hips don't work and your knees creak. And then you can travel the world and you don't feel like it. Yeah, I don't retire a little bit earlier. So a lot of our guys and gals in our program are retiring early, using using some of these things. And I'm really proud of that.  Grant That's, that's an amazing I love the analogy. And so it sounds like you're doing weekly as well as monthly sort of positions. So you're turning them around that you get involved in leap at all are you doing really long term positions is also. Mark We actually do we do we do long term positions as a proxy for the stock. That's something called synthetics. And we that's a wonky concept because there's deltas and all kinds of things that you'd have to teach people about, but yeah, the two to 4% that we make as our basic and then we kind of ratchet things up, if you want to take a little bit more risk, we like to tell people, it's about three times more return that you get, but take 1x more risk. But it all depends on the stock and the market and how you trade it. And, and 90% of this, at the end of the day comes down to emotion and mindset. And I always tell people, that that's that, to me. Grant That seems like that's one of the most critical aspects of this, there's the mechanics that you're describing that have to be right. But with all those being, quote, unquote, right point, that mindset, if you can't hold that position, or you're not confident in the system, then you really get whacked hard. How do you how do you get to the right mindset to do this Mark? Mark Well, you know, the premise starts from the word emotion and motion, money is tied to emotion very significantly, right? It's the number one cause of divorce even even more bigger cause than bad sex. And, and so money, money is a big deal. And people try it, they work hard for their money. And then when they put their money, it's so easy to click a mouse to get into a stock, right? Click, boom, you just invested $100,000, you don't have a strategy for when to get in. You don't have one to get out. You heard Cramer say something on TV that you should buy the stock. And pretty soon you're like, oh my god, it's down $10,000. And now you're getting emotional. And I don't know about you, but when you're angry or sad, or you know, the you don't make good emotional, emotional decisions, right? Not a time to make a decision. It's not the time. So what we do, and I believe that anything that is worth doing is worth doing right? Is we teach people a series of rules, right? Because rules allow you to say, is this, it's either yes or no, right? If you have a role, it takes the emotion out of the event, doesn't mean we don't have to deal with emotions, because boy, there are days like today, where things are moving around a lot. And you know, but we also teach you what to do in markets like today, like what do you do? Do you react? Do you protect you buy a color? Do you do whatever. And those and that system was just a system of rules is designed to reduce emotions, because when emotions go up, intelligence goes down, and vice versa. Right. So our goal in anything that you do in life, right, have a system like Michael Jordan had a system. And if he became the greatest basketball player ever, anybody has to have a system to do something really, really well. Grant So hands on help to overcome or manage meaning not overcome, manage the emotions through the system, the core of it, that helps you to have and maintain the right, the right mindset. I have another question for you slightly different. Time for one more question. Mark I got as much time as you want.  Grant Okay, question. This is crypto, what is going on there? Is that the place to go put your money? What do you think?  Mark Wait a minute, you said "Do I have time for one more question". And you asked me about crypto, which is a whole new universe of stuff? Yes, I did. Oh my god. Yeah, I have so much fun with Bitcoin right now. And it's, it's because a year ago, I was the biggest Bitcoin skeptic that there ever was. And today I have a cryptocurrency hedge fund because I decided that if I'm going to be in the financial services business, I need to learn about this. And I need to figure out why am I so skeptical? And why are so many people making money on it? And then when I got into it, Grant, I started to realize there are so many and it's not every crypto, there's almost there's like 20,000 different tokens. And I'm not recommending them I'm a Bitcoin guy with a with a little bit of cryptocurrency on the side maximalism. Right? But it's mostly because Bitcoin maximalism for me. And boy, I could get into all kinds of stuff. But if you just look at the whole man, I don't know where to start. But to keep it just keep it short. Let's let's just talk about what money is. Right? Money has certain properties, right? So we'll talk about and if you put three things in your brain as we talk about these. It might it might help but money is first of all, it's it's portable, right? You can take $1 Bill and you can walk across the street or you can go to get on a flight and go spend it right it's yeah, it also means it has to be accepted, universally accepted. So your dollar bill in your wallet will be a universally accepted somewhere else or they'll change it into something else. They won't look at it like a conch shell like they used to 500 years ago and say, well, the shells too small. We can't I used to actually trade with conch shells. Till some country said hey, we got a ton of these. Let's go buy a bunch of their stuff. So it's got to be universally accepted. It's got to be standard, right? $100 Bill is $100 bill, it's standard. It's got to be divisible. Well, you know, you sometimes you need a little less than 100 bucks, maybe not in your case. Maybe you're walking around with wads a hundreds but a lot of us we need you know dollar bills and $5 bills and pennies and nickels, and so it's divisible and it's in let's see what else it's um It's a store of value. It's a medium of exchange. So if you keep those so So looking at the dollar, I just described the dollar looking at Gold. Gold is pretty good, too. Gold's a good store of value, right? It's a good hedge against inflation doesn't pay you in any any interest or anything, but it's a good store of value. And a good hedge of inflation. Problem is, I'll bet you that you don't have any gold on you right now. Grant Yeah, that's it right there. Mark Yeah, that's it. So you're not walking around with a bunch of gold. And if you wanted to walk around with any kind of wealth in your pocket, you couldn't carry it in gold, right? It's heavy, you couldn't go across the border. Imagine if you're in Ukraine right now trying to come out of your country, because you have all this money, your bank account is closed? How do you get your gold out, they're gonna confiscate it, possibly at the border. If your guy they're not even letting you leave. I want to make you fight. So, you know, gold has got some really great properties. And for 5000 years, it's been a really great hedge on investing. You know, they used to actually shave off pieces of gold, but then you couldn't measure it. Right? And so they went to silver and then that's how coins got the ridges on the side of them. I don't know if you know that is because with with the people would shave off the silver, and then the coin would get smaller and smaller. So if it didn't have the ridges, they wouldn't accept that. Anyway. Grant Are you serious?  Mark That's yeah, that's why the ridge is... Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then and then we can talk about Bitcoin. And now let me just give you a background of Bitcoin, bitcoin is called a cryptocurrency, which, right off the bat eliminates most people from understanding what it is, but it's actually a really simple, it's a really simple product. All money is a ledger based system. When you have a bank account, it's held on the bank accounts, books as a liability, they owe you that money, right? You can go in and say, I want to get my money, and they owe it to you. Right? So it's an asset on your books. It's a liability on theirs, depending on on what you believe, how the Fed really interprets that. But that's, that's another conversation. Yeah, yeah. But but it's all a ledger system, right? You know, you own a house that's got a value, and then there's a liability against it with the mortgage, those kinds of things. The same thing with cryptocurrency, and I'll give, I'll give you the analogy, just in case, there's somebody here that doesn't understand what cryptocurrency is, because it can be very wonky. Imagine you and me and Susie are sitting around a coffee table. And I've got this book, that's this blank journal, and we all decide to write a book. So I write the first sentence. You know, the dog bit, Johnny. Okay. And then you take you take the book, I pass it to you, and you go, Mark wrote the dog bit, Johnny check. That's what he wrote. And John, and Johnny screamed is your sentence, and you pass it to Susie and Susie says, Mark wrote the dog with Johnny check, Grant wrote, and Johnny screamed, Chuck, and that she writes her sentence. And then we just keep passing that around. And we pass around, and then we write this story. And the journal gets thicker and thicker and thicker and thicker. And now it's 1000s or millions of pages. But you know what, the first sentence that I wrote is always in there. And the second sentence that you wrote is always in there. Yeah. And when those sentences are in, that's what's that's the blockchain. It's an immutable ledger ledger that can never be changed. Now, with Bitcoin, it has the advantage of this last component of money. And that this component of money is that was one that the dollar doesn't have, or any other fiat currency doesn't have. And Fiat just means by decree, it's just created by the government. It has scarcity. There's only going to be 21 million Bitcoins ever made, there's might have been 19 million made, the next 2 million would be made over the next 110 years. And so there's a scarce amount of those things. Well, you and I both know that, you know, if you gave somebody a dozen roses, that has a lot of value, but if you gave them two dozen roses that has some good value, and if you know if you gave them you know, 50 dozen roses. Well, that's cool, and you could story but pretty soon that last vowel that last rose doesn't have as much value as the first dozen roses and if you gave him 1000 roses, and 1000 Roses, the day after that pretty soon you'd be like, What do I do with all these roses? Now they're a nuisance and they don't have the value. So with scarcity it's like if you ever saw that tulip mania thing that you'd probably have in in in the Netherlands years ago the Dutch tulip mania it's that's indicative right? Because there was there was a scarcity you know, they created scarcity, but this is legitimate scarcity is 21 billion Bitcoin now. I'll tell you one more story. I know I can get a little bit wordy, but I just got back from El Salvador. So the reason I went to El Salvador is because number one, I run a cryptocurrency hedge fund and predominantly we're tracking Bitcoin. But El Salvador this little third world country that had civil war and has drug issues and Ms. 13 and nobody goes there. He has this really young, really visionary president named naive, okay? And this guy said, if if we're going to use the they use the US Dollar as their currency, and they see what we're doing to our currency in the US. And he's like, why would I want to put my I want to create a change in this country. I don't want to stake everything on this US dollars that's being debased. So he adopted Bitcoin as the first legal tender coin that I heard, and I thought, I gotta go check this out. Grant Well, close. Interesting.  Mark I was hoping it's a small country. I was I was sick. I thought you might have. Yeah, I met some other really cool people because I got invited to some thing with bunch of a bunch of government dignitaries on a different cryptocurrency launch, but it was really, it was really cool. And so I went down there because there's this place place called Bitcoin beach. Oh, no, ran an experiment for a year. And you might have seen it was just on a 60 minutes episode and Bitcoin beach. They just went to everybody and told them, You have to start accepting bitcoin, all the restaurants, all the hotels, all the people selling, you know, the little shell bracelets, and the necklaces and all that stuff. And they said, you have to start accepting bitcoin. How do we do that these third world, people would say, Well, you have this wallet that we're going to give you called the Chivo wallet, that's the name, the name of it, and you put it on your phone? Well, everybody's got a phone, right? And so you just accept it with this little QR code, QR code, what's a QR code, and they show them what that is. And so I went down there, and I bought my dinners, and my hotels, all with Bitcoin. And these people all understand it. They're third world people. And I go down the street and I tell people about cryptocurrency and Bitcoin and they look at me like I haven't unicorn sticking out of my head. And they're like, this will never work. Bla bla bla, it will work because it has all of the properties of money, but you can carry it with you in your brain. All you have to do is memorize 24 words. And now you have access to your cryptocurrency wallet, anywhere in the world. So when they when they when we left Afghanistan, they shut down the banks, anybody who had wealth in the banks couldn't get at it. But if you had the foresight to have Bitcoin, you could get at it. So it's transforming. one more statistic couple more statistics. 70% of the world is unbanked. Imagine the person in Ethiopia, or somewhere in Africa where they don't have banks on the corner like we do. Now. They've never seen a bank. And so they use systems of barter, and they use systems of exchange with and they don't have a banking relationship. But with a $50 phone, and a wallet that holds your cryptocurrency or your Bitcoin, you now have a bank on your phone. So these people are now able to create this ecosystem where they, they they can be banked. The same statistic happened in El Salvador 70% of the people were unbanked. And 30% of the people had access to some kind of banking relationship. After they announced last year, that they were accepting bitcoin as their legal tender. It's the reverse now 70% of the country now has Bitcoin on their wallet because the country gave them $30 worth of bitcoin. So they can either save it, spend it, you know, give it to their buddy, whatever. And they're all part of this like new ecosystem, they figuring it out, they're spending money. And it's it's fungible, it's accepted. It's it's a store of value. It's it's it's universal, it's divisible. You don't have to buy one Bitcoin at $40,000, or whatever it is today. You could buy 100,000 of a Bitcoin. Yeah, you might fraction, right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the long answer to a very short question. Grant Well, yeah, well, it is it is a future. A lot of organizations pursuing it, who feels at risk by crypto who sue who isn't that's going to lose, right? What organizations or governments would fight against this? And why would people fight against moving to crypto? Mark Well, first of all, it's more accepted than you think. There's another country that accepted it in Africa. So there's two countries now that accepting it as legal tender. There are cities there's a city in Switzerland that is now accepting it. It's being widely adopted. So first, it was just a couple of nerds. And then you know, I don't know if you know this, but the first transaction on Bitcoin was to buy to Papa John pizzas, and I think it was for 10,000 bitcoins and the guy goes, Yeah, I'll give you the pizzas for stupid 10,000 Bitcoin. Well, that's bitcoin is now worth $453 million. But that was the first real transaction and it's actually a great story about two pizzas being worth $400 million, or whatever the number is. Grant So man, I did not know. Mark Wow, yeah, no, that's they call it the pizza, the pizza trade. But there are some entrenched interest in doing this because the government first of all is debasing our currency, our currency is lost 99 Point 5% of its value in the last 100 years. Right? That's why a car an average, sorry, an average house today cost $250,000. But that house, you know, it's a similar house in, you know, 20 Sorry, 1920 cars $5,000 We've We've debased our currency to almost nothing. And we feel like we're getting rich, our houses are going up, but you're not getting richer. It's just the denominator is getting more debased. So the governments are all threatened by this, and they don't. So what they're doing is they're trying to come out with something called a C D, BC, a centralized digital banking currency. Right, Senator CBBC. And, you know, they think and if you think about the dollar, it's already electronic, like on my phone, I have Apple Pay and Google Wallet and visa and, and I have, you know, I can move money through my bank account. One other thing that Bitcoin you can do is, and I had somebody that wanted wanted some money from the hedge fund last week, and she asked for the money on Wednesday, I had to clear it out of the brokerage firm on Thursday, it had to get to my bank on Friday. And then I had to wire it over the week, you know, on Friday, and it got to the she got the money a Wednesday on Wednesday. And I said, if you had just asked for Bitcoin, you would have had this money in 10 minutes. Yeah. Because banks, Bitcoin never closes, right, you can sell the coin on a Saturday or Sunday at three o'clock in the morning. So the government's are trying to figure out how to get in the game. Because if they're not in the game, they're going to be out of the game. The problem is, you don't want the government to be in charge of having your control of your money. That's the problem we have now. You don't want more of that. Now then they could just print that and infinitely like like many of the other stuff they've been doing. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's the big deal. Grant That is that's, that's a huge deal. Okay, so let me ask you this. So you've shared so many great insights mark, it's just, it's amazing. You're a wealth of insights? Well, you're a wealth architect, I guess you're living name, that's for sure. So where where can people go to learn more about you, and what it is you and your team are providing? Mark Well, there's lots of places, you know, marquee around the web. But I set up a site, a little page for us here for this particular podcast for your audience. And it's if you want to grab a pen or put it in your phone, it's it's go dot Destiny creation, because we believe in creating your destiny. So it's go dot destiny creation.com, forward slash grant. Very nice. And so if you go there, we'll have we'll have this podcast there and some notes and some links, but I'll give you guys who are listening. Not only a free book ebook called relic, regular paychecks is how to how to create regular paychecks out of the stock market. But if you poke around there, on our website, you'll figure out a way to get a free course to seven day we call it the accelerated training program, it highlights and teaches you actually, two of our programs. One is called the stock trade genius program. And the other is cash flow machine once for growth and once for income. And, and you know, then you can poke around and see if you want to go any further with us. But the bottom line is I want to educate you, I want you to figure out what you don't know, right, because there's a lot of times people just don't know what they don't know. And I don't want to see people happy with 8% returns and having to work for 45 years, and then retire on 20% of their income. I want to see people wealthy and you know, thriving and even in this market. So this is the this quarter has been the worst quarter in it since in since the Great Depression, the worst beginning of any years since the Great Depression. Most of our investors in my hedge fund made money this quarter. So it shows you that by playing defense, you actually can play a little bit of offense. Grant At the market today, we're already back to like, it's almost wiped out. Like the in fact, I think was wiped out, or at least on the index is the entire year. Right? Yeah, it's wiped out. Like, like, like, like the entire year. That's amazing. Mark And yeah, at least Yeah, that's it. And that's what the market does, right? It goes up. They always say it goes up with the staircase, and that comes down with the elevator. So the market just gets hammered really quickly. And it goes back and you go wow, it took two years to get this. And we gave it back in three months. Grant Got it. Yeah. Okay, so it's go.destinycreation.com/grant. I appreciate you doing that. That's very kind. Mark. Thanks for your time. Any final comments you want to share? Mark Not really. I mean, first of all, this was a lot of fun. You had some really great question. Do you have some really great insights, and I hope I didn't talk too much. I have a saying and I'll just leave you and your audience with the saying it's never give up your power in your health, your wealth, or your time. So thank you for your time and I was so honored to be here with you today. Grant. Grant Thank you. So much Mark. I really appreciate all your insights and the wisdom that you shared everybody. Thanks for listening to another episode of Financial investing radio. And until next time, go get your destiny creation. Thank you for joining Grant on Financial Investing Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback.  

Suntree Retreat: https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/news-and-events/suntree-retreat-2022/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E14 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonders. Science-based paganism. I'm mark. And I'm one of your hosts. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we're going to talk about pleasure and sensuality and how we relate to that psychologically and what we can do for ourselves in order to more deeply. Enjoy our lives in essential sense. It's spring time and it's getting warmer out and people are wearing less clothing and it's just kind of feeling like everything's getting going again and we're coming up on Mayday or bell pain. So we thought this would be a good time to do this episode.  Yucca: Exactly. Yeah. It's definitely something for any time of the year, but particularly right now it feels, it feels like a good moment for it. And yeah. And we'll come back next week. We'll be talking more about Mayday or belting and some of the themes that can go along with that, which will, we're getting into a little bit today. We're going to focus more on that physical pleasure side today. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. Next week we can talk about rituals and observances and all that good kind of stuff for the holiday. But thematically, this is something that's kind of a bigger human issue so where should we start?  Yucca: Why don't we start with the idea of pleasure, because this is something that in. Paganism. We tend to have a different take on then much of the over culture does. And a lot of the other religions Mark: Yeah, that's certainly been my experience. I mean, one of the earliest things that I heard when I entered the pagan community was that one of the things that defines us as different from the predominant over culture is that we, our pleasure pauses. And that is it's principle 10 of the atheopagan principles. It's something that I have not only observed broadly in the community, but also have taken into myself as something to embrace. Not without struggle. I should say. And we're going to talk about that a lot.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But fundamentally from a values standpoint, we don't think there's anything wrong with enjoying. Quite the contrary,  Yucca: Consensual, right. Few episodes back. We talked about. About consent and all of that. And we're, this is all assuming that this is consensual, you know, this is, or we're talking about in yourself, but in no way, are we saying that, you know, it's okay for you to just do something that hurts somebody else? Cause you like it. That's not what we're  talking about. We're saying that it's, it's okay for you to feel good. In fact, it's probably really, really good for you and good for everybody around you and the rest of the world, because. Miserable people are not good company and aren't very effective that change. Mark: No, no. And having spent many years in the activist community, I can testify to the. You know, the sort of bitter angry zealots that that are interspersed amongst the activist community, who they just, they don't have a positive word to say about anyone or anything. And you can just tell that they're miserable and you know, really what they need is a lot of kindness. And. A lot of pleasure to just kind of transform the idea that they have of the world is a horrible place.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And it's, you know, we're not saying, we're not saying that there aren't horrors in the world because there are so, you know, we're not implying, oh, you know, feel good, have a great time. By itself. You know, this is within the context of understanding that there are terrible things in the world that we need to change and we need to work to change. But while we're doing that, we're living our one precious life.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: precious life is to be enjoyed. It's it's, you know, we have all of these nerve receptors all over ourselves, not just to Not just to tell us when something is injured or hurts, but also to bring us pleasure. Right. Otherwise, a massage wouldn't feel good. Sex wouldn't feel good. A delicious pastry wouldn't taste good,  Yucca: Long bath or,  Mark: Or.  Yucca: a nap in the sun. Yeah. Mark: all those wonderful things. We have pleasure centers for a reason and it is perfectly okay for us to stimulate them. And there's no, there's no downside to that. So long as everybody who's involved is consented, which kind of brings us to. The the over culture. I mean, we just talked about the pagan culture and we can talk more in examples about that, but. The over culture has a radically different way of looking at this. That's rooted in Christianity and Christianity, particularly Protestant Christianity, since the Protestant reformation is deeply suspicious of pleasure. And in many cases shaming about it.  Yucca: Right. Mark: It, there are lots of arbitrary rules about where, when you are allowed to feel pleasure. And when you're not  Yucca: And what specific times? Right? Mark: there are arbitrary times of year when you're supposed to deny yourself things that you enjoy, just because reasons,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And all of this conspires to inculcate within us, this feeling of discomfort at the least, but in many cases, real shame around enjoying ourselves in a sensual sense. And that is crippling to people. It's very, very hard to be a happy person. If that's the context that you, you live.  Yucca: Yeah. And I think one of the sources of this is control, right? It's a way of controlling people. Shame is a way. Making sure that that system, that structure is maintained. And when you have people feeling bad and shameful about the things that they could be doing that might, that might make them realize that they don't need to be doing what you're saying, or don't need to be following this, or it's, you know, that, that, that whole system starts to crumble when people just. Don't feel bad about these things that they're supposed to. And, and you mentioned this coming from a lot from the Protestant and I agree, but I think that it, it comes from that a lot, but it influences all of us today, whether we're from those particular religions or not, that has a huge influence on everybody. And especially if, if you went through the school site, Right. There's a few, a few folks out who might have that this point been unschooled, but pretty much everybody else went through the school system, which was designed to control you based on, on a lot of different things. But one way denying you from, from enjoying things and punishing you for enjoying those things and making you do these other things. Mark: Right. And teaching you about obedience to authority and denying yourself in the name of somebody else's rules.  Yucca: Right. Don't question, right. That's not, you know, it's not whatever, it's not respectful. It's not proper. It's not don't you want to learn what are all these, these things. And so I think that, that it happens that has happened to all of us to some degree. Yeah. That we are making the conscious choice as pleasure, positive Higgins. That's a nice one. That's a piece in there that, that we don't want to agree with that, but it's something that we have to think about not necessarily every day, but think about because it's, we're surrounded by it. We're steeping in it, it slips back in without us even thinking, without realizing, being conscious of it. Mark: right. Yeah. I mean, even after 35 years of being a pagan I, I confront this on a daily basis, right. Because the window of my room faces onto the parking area of the complex that I live in. Now, people aren't generally walking around, it's unusual for somebody to actually pass in front of my window, but I have to get dressed. And I don't sleep with clothing on. So, which is pleasurable by the way, at least it is for me, which is why I do it. Just  Yucca: know about you, but the nice sheets, this like  Mark: Oh yeah,  Yucca: And you get underneath the sheets and you can like rub your legs together. And it's just wonderful.  Mark: yeah.  Yucca: That's one of my favorite things.  Mark: Huh. yeah. so, Okay. Agreed. But then I have to get out of the bed and suddenly I am on display to the neighborhood and. I work very hard not to have that impact, you know, so that I'm not rushing. I'm not, you know, running to the closet to get myself a pair of pants. I'm not doing any of that. I'm taking my time and doing the things that I want to do in the morning. And by God is somebody outside gets offended. Then I'm going to deal with that when it comes along. But yes. Yucca: Okay. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. So, and you know, thus far, no one has seen me and we've been here for almost a year. Because you know yeah.  Yucca: depend that long. Wow. Mark: well, yeah, we moved in in oh, no. We, we got noticed that we had to move in. May we moved in July,  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: so it's 10 months.  Yucca: No, it's practically a year. Wow. Okay. Mark: Time flying. So, you know, here's, here's a perfect example. It's like at this time of year I mean, we just had a little rain here, so it's a little chillier now, but we've been having days that are like 75 degree days In the best of all possible worlds. Other than maybe a hat and some sunblock, I wouldn't wear anything. I would just go outside and walk around. Cause it's nice and the sun feels good on your skin, but we live in a culture where you can't do that. And it's actually enshrined in law that you can't do that for no reason. Other than that, the V over culture, which is driven by Christian ideas. Encourages this idea of shame of the body and shame of central pleasure. And it's just, it's a shame. But when you think about it, it's a pretty clever con  Yucca: Hm. Mark: because, okay, we're going to make you ashamed of. These natural things that you gravitate towards and we're going to call them sins. And then the only way you can get the sins taken off is through our institution.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Right? It's like, it's rather like having a car where the parts are only made by. The particular company that manufacturers your car. And so you will keep going back to them for parts over and over and over again. So we were talking about this before we started the recording and there is a word for this. There's a term for this, which is purity culture. And you had said some really interesting things about that Yaka.  Yucca: We were talking. Places where we see this. And one of the places that I see this is in is around diet culture, whatever the particular diet is. You know, people talk about, you know, clean eating and you know, clean lifestyles and all of these things. And I think that that framing is a, is a really destructive and harmful framing. Mark: Because what is, what is dirt? Right? What is dirt? Dirt is soil the most miraculous stuff on earth.  Yucca: it's earth. Right.  Mark: the stuff that gives us life.  Yucca: Yeah. And, and also stuff that gets used, like cheat meals and things like that. I'm like cheating. Like what you, what are you implying by all of this? Mark: Right. Yeah, When, when you say cheat, you're automatically asserting a moral framework, right? There is a virtuous behavior and there is an unvirtuous behavior. And the virtuous behavior inevitably has to do with some sort of shame-based thing You can see it on the labels of food products. You know, it'll say natural or low fat, or, you know, low sugar or, you know, all these things. Yucca: the thing is. Mark: Whenever the thing is that are, that is. directly keyed to a shame response that you have within yourself because you learned it because you learned it from parents, from authority figures, from the society at large, from advertising. And for one thing, there's no such thing as purity. There just isn't, it doesn't exist. It's  Yucca: Yeah, it's made up. It's not. Mark: an arbitrary and destructive idea, just like virginity, it's an argument. It's a, a destructive idea that doesn't help anything. It just doesn't help anything. For another. It, when it's pursued to its logical extremes, it has very destructive impulse impacts. I'm sorry. I mean, certainly you see it in ever angelical Christianity where teens are being bombarded with these messages about their bodies, about sexuality, about relationships, about all this stuff. And it is so. Harmful. And there aren't countervailing voices in many cases to provide an alternative perspective.  Yucca: it's not even just starting with the teens, it started way, way younger than that.  Mark: You're right,  Yucca: Yeah. It's you know, that we will start to hear about it from the teams because sometimes there's the team because of the teams will start to talk about. Right. But the younger, the kids, they don't know that they don't have platforms to talk about it yet, but but yeah, there's just some, there's some stuff out there that's like, wow. Like, oh, that, that hurts just to think about, you know, just the, the you know, just being. Ashamed of your body, of yourself, of your gender, your sex, whatever you are, you know, on top of just all of the other things about how, you know, we're with the advertising about, that's always there to try and convince us that. Not good. We're not perfect. And here's the thing to make us perfect. And, and even once you get the thing, it doesn't work because you never, that never was the problem in the first place. And there's just all of this about just trying to tear the person down. And we just internalize that even when we're aware that it's happening, it's a conscious effort and fight to not internalize it. Right. Mark: Yeah. I mean, we, in this culture, we encourage people not to like themselves too much.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Right. Because that's pride, right. Heaven. Forfend that? You should be proud of who you are.  Yucca: Especially if you're a woman,  Mark: Well, particularly if you're a woman Yeah.  Yucca: I mean, it happens to everybody,  Mark: Or gay or non-binary or trans yeah. It's. I D I, I get worked up when I think about this, it it's so destructive and it's so completely unnecessary. All that it is, is a set of tools that were used to perform social control, starting thousands of years ago, certainly centuries ago in its latest incarnations. And we are still stuck with it. And one of the things that is really outraging the Christian right wing in the United States right now, is that the younger generation ain't having it. They're just not, they're not, they're not viewing these authorities as authorities. They're not following their moral codes. Pursuing new relationship structures. They're experimenting sexually there. They're just not doing it.  Yucca: Yeah. And those older powers are freaking out.  Mark: They are.  Yucca: Yeah. That's where a lot of these ridiculous, you know, don't say gay and bills and things like that are coming from. Mark: right. Yeah. I mean, Presuming that we're still around in 50 years. I think we will see that this time will be seen as kind of the last gasp of the evangelical. Right. Because they. They're trying to nail down everything they possibly can for their agenda now, because they know that their voting power is dwindling rapidly. It'll only be a few more election cycles when they, you know, when their generation has dwindled away enough that they're no longer able to call the shots. That's my theory anyway, and I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic that that's what will actually happen. So, pleasure it.  Yucca: circle back around with think it's good. Mark: we think it's good. We, we think your body was built for pleasure and you should be having some. And what that means to you individually can vary widely You know, for some people it's like, you know, elaborate sexual escapades for some people it's having their head scratched. You know, for some people it's a foot rub for some people it's, I'm sitting in a hot tub, for example, or I'm having a massage or eating something delicious without feeling guilty about it or. Taking some kind of recreational drug, which as a sovereign individual, even though it may not be your, your legal right, is your right as a person, you, you have the right to make choices for yourself about what happens with your body. And that's one of them. You have a Right. to make. Yucca: Right.  Mark: You just have to be careful in relation to law enforcement. If it's not one of the sanctioned drugs in our society  Yucca: walks, right. Just getting that, it's getting some fresh air and breathing that in, or you know, Sandra between your toes or I was joking before getting, but there's a serious, if you've never tried, it is one to give bag of rice and put your bare feet into a bag of rice and just wiggle your toes around. That's one that is just delightful.  Some  Mark: have to try that out.  Yucca: Yeah. I mean, some people don't like that kind of sensation, but it's, you know, a bag of rice or a bag of beans. Some people really like that. There's just something about it. Or But just something that, that feels good and that you experienced, you know, in your body, right? Those that there's mind pleasures too, but there's also something about just being really present with your body, enjoying whatever this feeling is. Mark: Right. Right. And, and that doesn't have, you know, as, as the examples that we've been talking about make clear, doesn't have to be a sexual thing. If you're an asexual person or any romantic person, it can still be, you know, those, there can still be these central pleasures that, you know, that, that fill your body with those good feeling chemicals. The The Mary Oliver poem, very famous Mary Oliver poem. Wild geese says you do not have to be good. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. And that's that's truth. That is really true. You do not have to be good by the lights of this culture. I mean, don't get yourself in trouble because then you won't be getting pleasure.  Yucca: Sure. Mark: You know, being punished arbitrarily for things that shouldn't be punishable. But just let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. And, you know, for some of us it's work, you know, we have parents that drilled into us that, you know, various things were shameful. Don't, don't let that slow you down. No in your heart that you deserve the pleasure that you have, and that it's okay for you to do something just for that purpose. It doesn't have to be productive. It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to, you know, be economically contributing. It doesn't have to make anybody else happy. You, you know, if you're doing it with anybody else to know it's presumed that you have consent, but it is enough just to make yourself feel pleasure.  Yucca: Yeah. And to let go of that deserve not deserve stuff. That's just a way of, of just trying to maintain control over you. You deserve it, but  Mark: It's that inner critic again, right? That inner critic will tell you that you don't deserve something or that You should, feel shame about something. And as we talked about before, the critic is not on your side, it's the voice of, of culture, of authority, of parental messages. It's not on your side. And you do, you deserve to come out from underneath. The oppression of what that voice wants you to believe. You can be more than that and you, and you should be I'm I'm I'm I getting my I'm wagging my finger at you and saying you should be because you are more and that's, that's the important point is that you are more than that. And and your life is more than that. And so live it live it. So, do we have more to say on this topic or shall we save it for next week? Yucca: I think this is a good place to pause and come back next week. So we'll, we'll return to this a little bit next week, but we'll also talk about the other side of. What it, what belting or may day or all the many different names, again, whatever this, this may holiday is. There's a lot to say about that. So  Mark: Yeah, absolutely. One more thing yeah, which is the century retreat, which the last day of is a month from the day today that we're recording. So it's in four weeks, but if you're thinking of going, you really need to get your registration in. The deadline for registration is April 25th because we have to tell the retreat center How many meals we're ordering. And so we have to have a count by April 25th. So, go to the atheopagan society website, which AP society.org and go to the events page. And there's a link there that will take you to everything that you need to know about the event. But and we hope that you'll join us there both Yucca and I will be there. And I talked with some other folks this morning at the Saturday zoom mixer who are going to be there and we're all getting really excited.  Yucca: Yep. Just around the, really around the corner  Mark: It really is. Yeah. So thank you, Yucca. Thanks for a great conversation.  Yucca: likewise.  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E10 TRANSCRIPT: Read the rest of this entry » ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Mark. And this is our hundredth episode. We are so excited. We have been, uh, talking with you and, uh, presenting our ideas and kicking them around between ourselves now for a hundred episodes, which is. a tremendous amount of talking. We're kind of shocked actually.  Yucca: Yeah. And it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't feel like that long on the other hand it really does feel like that long, but a hundred episodes. Mark: Yeah. averaging about 40 minutes a piece. So, you know, that's 4,000 minutes of, of a conversation and that is a long time. Uh, we'd have to do the math to figure out how many hours that is, but oh my God, that's, that's a lot of, that's a lot of talking.  Yucca: I had just under 67 hours.  Mark: Jeez.  Yucca: Yeah. So almost three days straight. Mark: Yep of continual conversations. So that's, that's a lot of time. We are so grateful to you, our listeners for continuing to listen to the podcast, and I'm glad that you're getting something out of it and hope that you continue to and we really appreciate those that have, uh, kind of bumped the podcast to others and encouraged them to check it out. We get new listeners all the time and it's just very encouraging. We have new members of the community that come in having first heard of, uh, these ideas and atheopagan ism and non-obvious, science-based paganism through this podcast. So, we're just really gratified at how well it's resonated once we started to do this.  Yucca: Yeah, thank you so much, everyone. And, and also thank you for the reviews and comments on platforms like iTunes, because that helps it get to more ears. We're not super concerned about, oh, how many stars did we get? But the more stars that we do get, the more people I get a chance to listen to it. And so we really appreciate all of those reviews that you have left us. So thank you. Mark: Uh, call out to feed spot, which keeps ranking us in the top 10 pagan podcasts.  Yucca: Yes. Mark: In our first year, we were number nine in the top 10. And then in our second year we were number eight in the top 10. So we're, we're very excited about that and really appreciate the, uh, the publicity.  Yucca: Uh, number seven at the moment  Mark: Are we  Yucca: we are. Yes. I don't think that will ever make it past, say drew to cast or anything like that. But, uh, yeah, there's some podcasts that's been that have been going for a long time, but it's amazing to think that, wow, we're in our third year of this. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And we don't have as, as crazy good. A name as three pagans in a cat.  Yucca: Yes. Plenty of cats actually.  Mark: we do, yes. Yes. We have plenty of cats, but uh, but we didn't put it in the name of, our podcast.  Yucca: yeah. Mark: There you go anyway. Thank you everyone. This is a real milestone for us. When we started this, it was this great idea that Yucca had had. And I had been hoping to create a podcast for a long time. And when Yucca approached me. And floated this idea. I said, well, Hey, how about if we do this as a partnership? And it's just turned as it turned out to be a great way of producing a, a recorded piece or recorded channel?  Yucca: Yeah. And thank you. We've become really good friends over the last few years. I look forward to this every week. This is one of the highlights of my week is just to get out, to get to hang out and talk with mark about these cool topics and, and share with all of you guys. Mark: I really feel the same way. So thank you so much, Yucca. Okay. Well that said it's coming up on Equinox time and that is the topic for today's. Uh, podcast is, uh, the spring Equinox. And, uh,  Yucca: here we are. Mark: here we are, again, once again, this is our third episode to talk about the spring Equinox, uh, because we've just passed our two year anniversary as well, which kind of makes sense. I mean, there's 52 weeks in a year. So if you're two years. Plus a few weeks old, you get to a hundred episodes,  Yucca: That's right. Yeah.  Mark: because we took a few weeks off,  Yucca: Yeah. So sickness, you know, nothing major, but times where just life just wouldn't let it happen.  Mark: right?  Yucca: So, yeah. Mark: It amazes me that there have been as few of those as there have actually, because we're both pretty busy and we're doing a lot of stuff. And yet we've found the time for these conversations every weekend. So that's pretty cool.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So the spring Equinox, the Vernal Equinox, or what I call high spring, because where I live, that's really what's going on now. The Hills are all green with bright, new grass and wild flowers are blooming everywhere. There's tons of California poppies and the milkmaids are already gone and we've got Lupin that's blooming, and there's just. You know, the creeks are still running with water from the rains that we had, which is pretty much finished now. So it's, uh, it's a, uh, kind of a happy springy, hopeful time when life is waking up again and we get to see all the beautiful results of that.  Yucca: Yeah. And we were just talking about before hitting the record button here and at my home, my daughter and I were noticing that the male finches are getting their color back. They don't completely lose it in the winter, but he gets a little bit more dull, but now they're getting the color back and he can hear them singing. And it really, it's starting to feel like spring for us. We think of it as, as our first spring. And because it's kinda making, it's not quite made up its mind, whether it's spring or not, we'll have these real nice, warm, beautiful days and the animals will be out and the bees will even be out. And then it'll snow  Mark: Ah,  Yucca: drop down yesterday. It was, it was like 15 degrees. Which I think what's that like negative eight or nine in Celsius.  Mark: Celsius. Yeah.  Yucca: now, you know, I'm a little bit too warm in my short sleeves, so it's kind of a strange time of year, but it's feeling you could feel spring. It's really quite, it's a nice breath of fresh air. Mark: Yeah, I have some of that sort of paradoxical experience today actually it's the air. temperature is actually not all that warm. I think it's around 60 degrees. But in the sun it feels. Very temperate and wonderful. So I am in shorts for the first time this year, uh, pulled them out and put them on today. So that's kind of an exciting thing. I'm looking forward to a lot more days of shorts before days when it's so blazing hot, that even shorts is too much.  Yucca: Yeah, well where we are, we don't do shorts much at all because  Mark: Because you're at high altitude.  Yucca: So, well, for a lot of reasons, Prickly things. But the more you can just keep the sun off your skin, the cooler you're going to be. So, yeah. But also we should mention that the Equinox, this is something that has been observed all over the world by many, many cultures for millennia, because this is a point that has. Astronomical meeting as well. When we think about earth as a planet orbiting the sun we often people will say, oh, the Equinox is a point where there's equal, might a date. That's really only going to be the case. If you are on the equator. That's not going to be the case when you're at higher latitudes, whether those are north or south, but it is the point when the plane. Yeah. Imagine Earth's equator as a plane reaching out into space. And then also imagine another plane, which is the plane that we orbit around the sun on when we're crossing those two planes are touching each other. That's the moment in our orbit that we are around the sun. Mark: Right. And as you say, there have been many celebrations of that around the world. My favorite is that in Japan, the, uh, spring Equinox is happiness day, which I think we could use a lot more of in the world. So that's pretty cool thing. Happiness day. I don't know anything about how it gets celebrated, but I would imagine that it's got some. You know, contemporaneous quality with the blooming of cherry blossoms and you know, all of the wonderful spring things that we see, uh, around this time of year. So, we wanted to talk a little bit about how we celebrate this holiday. As I said, I consider this to be high Springs, so it's kind of. It's kind of the moment when we've stopped the dreaming and planning phase that winter and, uh, the cold months, uh, bring us, you know, where the ideas. Germinated or rather where they, the idea is just get, you know, created in the first place. And where plans are made about what you're seeking to do over the course of the, of the year. And then along comes. Hi spring and well, at least where I am the ground isn't frozen anymore. And you can start doing things like sprouting new plants for our garden and implementing those plans that you had previously. And it's, it's exciting. It's a time when work can begin. And I think that that's kind of a common thread that runs through celebrations of this time of year, all around the world. It's a time of waking. From the long sleep of winter and really kind of getting, going again.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely have those themes as well. It's also the time for us when we tilt our solar panels into their summer position. So we switched them twice a year and now it's enough that okay, we can tilt it, that it was really, really steep angle in the winter. And now we can lean it back and be catching that sun that's higher in the sky and just be like, we got to get to work. We also have a very brief period of time where we can get lots of work done outside and the rattlesnakes 70 woken up yet, because once they wake up, you've got to be a lot more careful about stomping around, outside. Mark: course, of course. Yeah. We have a lot of rattlesnakes in Sonoma county, but not really in the domesticated areas. So I don't really have to worry about that unless I'm going on a hike in the state park or something like that. The, and it's warm enough here that snakes are active  Yucca: Alrighty. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. They're, they're already active. And, uh, and aggressive actually, cause they're hungry. They haven't, they haven't done much over the course of the winter. And now they're now they're out to get something.  Yucca: Oh, yeah. Well, our mammals are definitely waking up. We've got lots of little chipmunks and things and they don't do a true hibernation. Uh, they'll come out during the warm days. In the winter, just to kind of stock up on, on what they can find, but they've, they're definitely out and about, and having their little chipmunk wars and fighting with the other creatures. That's a lot of fun to watch that, but it's also the time where at least for my area this is when a lot of the birds are beginning their mating rituals. This is when, if you keep chickens. So is when a lot of delaying picks back up. Because many of them will lay less during the winter, just because of the light that's triggered by, you know, how much light there is. And we've never been the folks to want to put lights in their coops to try and force them to lay more. So this is a time that we start to think about, uh, the really celebrating the birds and the eggs. And so we've been gathering. We have several years worth of collected feathers that we gather, and we put them on, on little strings and hang them up around the house. Just to remember that whole part of the ecosystem. That is it's an important piece on its own, but it's also really critical for our survival. Mark: Sure. Yeah, And I mean, as you say, I mean, one of the reasons why celebrations at this time of year, or, uh, deeply associated with eggs is that it's the first high protein food source that's been available. Reg that's been abundantly available to people following the winter. Uh, and so people all over the world, people above the Arctic circle celebrate, you know, Eating eggs at this time gathering and eating eggs at this time of year. People. In Eastern and central Europe are known for the amazing decorations that they can do of the, the, the chicken, eggs and goose eggs, uh, particularly the Ukrainian punky. I have, uh, uh, a Ukrainian Bisaga goose egg which I'm going to be putting on my altar because of Ukraine as well as the season. So it's a. It's a very old tradition to celebrate birds and, uh, laying and eggs at this time of year.  Yucca: yeah. And bunnies because yep. The bunnies, they there. The other small mammals they're coming back out and, and doing their thing.  Mark: Right, right. Yep. And the opportunity to eat rabbit and eat eggs is something that was really a big deal too. European antecedents after living on stored root vegetables for months, uh,  Yucca: Well, mostly dried meat. It would have been a very, you know, they would have been in good state of Quito for, for a couple of months at that point. Yeah. And then coming out. Okay. Cause it's a cyclical. Now you can start using some of the green stuff again and oh, by the time we get to the autumn and then that's when we've got all the fruits and honey and all that good stuff, but it just it's, we know that things are still alive. And it's not that things are being reborn in the spring, but it's like, they're waking up, they're coming back and some things, yeah. Some things have very short periods of time, your annual plants. But that seed wasn't dead that whole time. It was just laying dormant in the ground, waiting for the right conditions to pop up and sprout. And we're still a few weeks from that, but it sounds like where you are. There that's what's happening  Mark: it's well underway. Yeah. And it's not a big surprise. That people in, you know, in prior times believed that, uh, things were coming back to life because they didn't really understand, you know, humans don't hibernate. We, we demand way too much energy to be able to do that. And so our understanding of the way that life worked was, you know, well, when you lie down and stop having activity, you're dead. So if you then stand up and start having activity again you you've come back to life. And so the metaphor of rebirth is something that's sewn very deeply into spring. And of course, Christians celebrate that with the resurrection. And, you know, there are all kinds of traditions that go along with that.  Yucca: And, you know, I suspect that I suspect that there was an intellectual understanding that there was a difference there, but it didn't matter because it was the, the two concepts were close enough that it might as well be that. And so why, why distinguish between that linguistically and, and in your stories and myth? Right. Because I think that we definitely know that, okay. The. You can see the barest slowly breathing, you know, that they're alive right there, but they're going to come back understanding what was happening with plants. I think might've been trickier in terms of, but we've been saving seeds, you know, for 10,000 years. So I would be cautious to, to sometimes we can act like, oh, the humans of today, we know so much more than the humans of the past. And I think we have access to more information. More quickly, but we weren't dumb. We were Mark: I, I, I wasn't in any way implying that that's what we were, but on the other hand, the, the concept of spontaneous generation was something that persisted for a couple of thousand years. Uh, the idea that that rotting neat, spontaneously generated maggots and flies, Yucca: right. Mark: You know, this.  Yucca: just something in the air. Yeah,  Mark: there was a magical process that happened that suddenly brought forth life from death. And it took a long time before we understood that that's not the way that things work. And there was this entire microbial world that we just couldn't see where things were taking place.  Yucca: the, yeah. And that way, when that idea was introduced, it was, uh, A lot of people that not like that  Mark: Oh, round  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: roundly disapproved.  Yucca: Yeah. Even when they were able to see it in those there's amazing early microscopes. There was still a lot of thought of, oh, this is trickery of some kinds of scam, you know? Mark: Well, and even as late as the mid 19th century the, the Roman idea of disease has spread by bad air, which of course in Latin is malaria. Was still very much the dominant paradigm in among scientists and this led to terrible problems. The the intake for drinking water in London was downstream of the outflow for their sewer.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And they had terrible cholera outbreaks and it wasn't until a scientist whose name escapes me, uh, put, you know, actually, and, and what was most frustrating about all this from, from today's standpoint is that they were collecting all the data that could have told them that that model didn't work. And they just weren't looking at the pattern because they were so sure that it was bad air that was causing disease.  Yucca: Right. Which is, which is onto something. In some circumstances it's not bad air, but that things can be past air. Yeah. Right. So sure you see that that's something that could have been observed in the past and worked in certain circumstances, but then we just applied it to everything and, you know, that's Mark: Because Galen.  Yucca: because Galen said, so. Mark: Because Galen, which was the explanation for pretty much everything in medicine for more than a thousand years, humans, according to anatomical texts, humans had gizzards. Up through the point where dissections were finally allowed. But until Vesuvius who started actually doing human dissections and drawings of what he was actually finding, it was believed that humans had gizzards because Galen had dissected chickens and had assumed that they had that humans had all of the same structural parts.  Yucca: What did they think we used? Stark is there's four.  Mark: They didn't ask that question.  Yucca: Okay. I was not familiar with this.  Mark: Yeah. It's so yeah, Galen was the standard for nearly 2000 years. It's really remarkable. There's a wonderful book called the ghost map, which is about the, the overthrowing of the, the bad air, uh, paradigm, uh, based on the cholera outbreaks in London. And, uh, it's, it's sort of a scientific. Well well-worth reading. I recommend it. Well that was  Yucca: we get, how do we get onto that,  Mark: oh, spontaneous generation and, uh, you know, life  Yucca: back to life waking up. Yeah. But the, so that, that reawakening is, is something that I think a lot of places, depending on what's happening in their, their climate, but that that's shared in a lot of different. celebrations is, Hey, we're waking up. Mark: Right. And so you'll see on the altars, you'll see flowers and eggs and symbols of rabbits, birds. And you know, it's, it's very common for example, to have some sort of a bird for a special dinner, like, uh, a chicken or a goose or something like that. Although I, Easter is associated with ham. I'm not quite sure how that fits into the model.  Yucca: Well in Lam.  Mark: oh, in lamb.  Yucca: Lam is, and that has the like, but that the lamb makes sense from just the mythology perspective of, you know, Jesus being the shepherd and all of that, but also just the timing. Wow. Right. So you would have a little bit earlier on the, the goats and the kids in the lambs would have been born, and then you're gonna end up, you can't support the whole herd. You've just had a whole bunch of them in, so probably you're going to eat some end up eating some of the males. And this is around the time that you do that. And then, you know, you keep your larger flock and you're going to later on, you'd have your button. But the lamb is that is a very different kind of taste and meat and experience. So it just lines up at the right time.  Mark: Yep.  Yucca: The ham, I think, I, I don't know, we'd have to check, but I think that's more of just an American tradition that that was what was available. But if someone knows the history to that Mark: we eat a lot less lamb and sheep here than people do in other parts of the world, including Europe. And it may just be that That just got swapped out. Yucca: That might be the case. Yeah. mean, that's our main, that's our main houses is household diet is bovine based. So lamb and beef and, and that sort of thing. So, but that's not super common for the whole, the overarching culture.  Mark: No.  Yucca: So. Mark: So we've talked about the kinds of things that you might find on altars for, uh, an Equinox celebration. The sorts of things that people do in rituals are often around the themes we've been discussing. Like, uh, how shall I put it revitalization? Yeah. It's, it's not, it's not actually coming back to life, but it's. The world is suddenly very busy. There's A lot of business taking place when a month before there wasn't so much, at least that you could see there may have been things going on under the ground and in the microbial realm, but mostly.  Yucca: guy. Mark: Right. It's slow. It's just very slow when things are cold, life is that way. And so now, as it gets warmer, suddenly there is a lot of work to be done because growth seasons are limited and food stores in seeds are limited, right? So they'd better get to work or they're not going to be strong and vital enough to reproduce.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So those. Those are themes that we can bring into our own lives. You know, the, the revitalization of our efforts, the sort of rejuvenation you know, a return to some youthfulness, right? Uh, some vigor of the kind that we see among those that are young. So we can Make commitments to various things that help us to feel vital and active. Uh, the weather has improved in most places. So people go out outside more and do more kind of outdoor, active activities. All of those are good things for celebrating the spring.  Yucca: Right. And another common theme. This one, for me isn't as a big of a thing, but for many people. The Equinox, but the equinoxes are a time of balance because you've got the balance of the night and the day. And although it's not going to be perfect, it's pretty close to being balanced. And so for some people, that's a really important element of it is to be thinking about, you know, the, the dark and the light in our lives and in our efforts and our experience. Mark: Yeah, there's a there's a temperance quality that many celebrate around this time of year. The, the idea being. Yes. Be enthusiastic, but also, uh, be responsible, right? Yes. Be uh, fun, loving, but also pay your bills, that kind of thing. Right. Because when you've been cooped up in. Winter conditions for months, it can be easy to go a little crazy once you're, Once you're allowed  Yucca: you can stretch again. Yeah. Mark: Uh, and so the, the temperance aspect, the the balance aspect of the equinoxes reminds us well. That's great, but. know, use your wisdom, you know, you haven't, you've accumulated some life experience. Go ahead and apply that. So that you're, you're still safe and, and take care of yourself.  Yucca: Yeah. So are there any particular traditions that you have for the Equinox? Mark: Well back in the before days, uh, before COVID, what we liked to do was to have a little gathering of friends and particularly friends who had kids and we would get together and dye eggs and make little, uh, Equinox? baskets with real grass, not plastic grass uh, which is the weirdest don't even get me started. And, uh, and candy and things like that. And we would play childhood games. We drink pink lemonade and play Candyland or chutes and ladders. You know, the, the kinds of things that people in elementary school, you know, can really enjoy. And so it was a day that was mostly focused around children. And that's also consistent with the thing that I do, which I've mentioned on the podcast before, which is to map the arc of a human life onto the wheel of the year. So that this time becomes the time. That's kind of about kids from the age of maybe three or four up until they're say 11 or 12, when they start becoming teenagers.  Yucca: So childhood really.  Mark: Yes  Yucca: Right. Cause before that, you know, before three, like yeah, there's pod sort of toddler, but it's, that's like infancy and toddlerhood, which is a little bit different.  Mark: That's right. That's right. And that actually is more the February Sabbath, right? The, you know, the, between the Equinox and the winter solstice, that's, that's much more around infancy and you know that the, the very beginnings of life, so. I, I like to do that for a couple of reasons. And one of them is that I think it's valuable to have a holiday that really centers children. The, I mean, to some degree you will can do that depending on how you celebrate it. But I think. It's it's healthy in its way to have a holiday that centers each cohort of life, whether it's, you know, kind of robust adulthood, you know, responsibility taking care of things, learning. Being in the full vigor of your adult vitality or whether it's being middle-aged or whether it's being an elder. And then of course you get to Hallows and that's around death and composting and the part of the cycle that we don't experience. I just, I, I really see value in. Uh, having celebrations like that around the course of the year. So because there are some of those phases where people feel invisible and unappreciated, particularly in middle age and then in, in elderhood. But also I think children can get shunned to decide quite a bit,  Yucca: Oh,  Mark: By gatherings of adults and it's. I think setting aside a time that specifically for kids that way is helpful.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. I really liked that. I remember you telling, telling us about that. Well, The, uh, so three equinoxes ago, actually, this was one of our first episodes. Right. So I think we had one, maybe there was the equinoxes, maybe our second episode  Mark: I think so.  Yucca: Yeah. So I think that's great. You know,  Mark: Yes. and then our fourth, our fourth was about COVID.  Yucca: Oh know,  Mark: So as soon as we started everything changed.  Yucca: right. And I remember us going, there's this thing that's kind of starting in the world. Do you think we should maybe mention this a little bit? Oh, let's see how it goes. Oh, wait.  Mark: Yeah,  Yucca: this is, this is here for awhile. This is  Mark: really here. Yep.  Yucca: That's yup. Mark: So, how about you? How do you, I, I hear that you celebrating the birds and the, you know, the avian communities what are the kinds of observances that you do for this time of year?  Yucca: Well, a lot of things as the family is starting to grow, you know, we've transitioned from what our personal private practices were as individuals to, you know, how do we do this as a family and, and the kids. The youngest is three now. So, and the oldest is five and a half. You gotta put that half. And she was very insistent on that, but that's,  Mark: about what,  Yucca: it's a big,  Mark: of that life of her life that is. Yucca: is. I remember being the  Mark: is a big percentage.  Yucca: Yes. So five and a half, very different than five. But you know, they are old enough to be participating in most things, you know, they can't carry as heavy things as we can, but, you know, they couldn't carry the stick while I carry the rest of the firewood or whatever it is. And there's just a lot that is, is happening in the world in terms of. I'm not talking about the world is in town and city and stuff, but just in terms of like our little piece of land and all the things that need to happen. And so there's just a lot of doing this time of year that started doing and observing, and we did several fires. We have a little campfire in the winter, but it was a lot harder to do that when it was really cold. And so, you know, we're starting to have some nights where we can be out and at the, the fire again, and that sort of thing, and just finding, finding little pieces of stuff and and it's still just a tad early for the planting for us, but. Week after March, we'll probably start some of our starts inside that need a long time, like the tomatoes, for instance, any of the tomatoes and peppers and things like that, that really need a long, uh, melons don't tend to do very well here. But if we were to do melons, we'd start the melons, that sort of thing. So the greenhouse is getting ready to go and and it's. That time where, like you were saying, the planning part is done now it's the now it's like, get going, start doing. Yeah, but then we still have a few days where, oh, sort of cold we'll come back and you can just snuggle in with the cup of cocoa and just be like, okay, I don't have to do anything today. It's too miserable out there. That's really what it is for us and then loving having the feathers everywhere. That's just really kind of, and we've tied a few little bells to some of them, so we'll have like a string with feathers on it and a bell on the bottom. And sometimes when you walk by the feathers, we'll just move in the air. And the cat has gotten quite a few of them. So someone, if you really like one of the feathers, you've got to put it out of reach of the cat. Cause he'll  Mark: see.  Yucca: So it's just a lovely, lovely. Yeah. Mark: That's wonderful. Yeah. I really, I really liked the sound of that. Yeah. I'm reminded when you talk about your winter fires, those are the fires where the front half of you is warm in the back. Half of you is freezing.  Yucca: Yeah, and I am one of those people gets cold really easily. I don't have a lot on me. So I put this a ridiculous amount of blankets. We have some outdoor blankets so that we can just be a bundle of blankets. And even then it's like, okay, how close can I get to the fire safely with all of my blankets? And then the smoke, like the wind changes and goes in your face and then switch to the other chair, fall asleep. Mark: Right. Yeah. Be because inevitably,  Yucca: Oh, yeah, Mark: it just does that. Yeah, I'm thinking of burning a fire in my fire pit for the actual Equinox day. I'm going to be doing a little ritual with uh, with the local cups. group, covenant of Unitarian Universalist pagans Yucca: just a Mark: in my local area. That's, that's a national network of Unitarian Keegan. Groups.  Yucca: Folks. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And, uh, I'm, I'm very uninterested in Unitarianism itself. I like their values a lot, but the, the, the ear and not alive enough for me. Not energetic and, you know, kind of body-based uh, so many of the things that we've talked about, I mean, I go to a U a T Unitarian service and I just want to take my clothes off and start beating a drum. It's like, come on people be the animals now.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And you know, a lot of that is because many people who are who are Unitarians are atheists or agnostics, and they're very sort of heady and intellectual. And the reason that they're doing Unitarianism is because it's very open-minded and it has very progressive values and they're very activist in their orientation. So there's, there's a lot of good reasons for people to be interested in that, Yucca: And they're very widespread too. You can, and a lot of different communities that you can find a group. Yeah. Mark: So I'll be doing that. But I think that when I get home, I'm probably going to light a little fire and sit on my patio and maybe I'll drink a non-alcoholic beer. I found one that I really like. Yeah, there's actually a non-alcoholic beer. That's good. It's made by log Anitas and it's called IPNA for non alcoholic.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: Uh, so it's, uh, that's what I've been drinking lately. I am now 10 weeks into my six months alcohol fast. So yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a, kind of a good thing. I've lost weight. Of course, because alcohol  Yucca: Has a lot. Mark: there's, there's no more empty calorie than an alcoholic calorie.  Yucca: Yeah. And even a small amount. It's not easy on your liver. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: So that whole, the whole system. Yeah. So, Do you w in your new home do you have a space? You talked about the patio. Is there plenty of something that's built in or do you have one of those little, what are they called? Like the Roman fire pits, like the  Mark: Well, it's not built in no, it's, uh, it's a, uh, an iron frame was sort of a bowl.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And then there's also a sparker rester, which is a grill that can go over the top of it to keep sparks from flying off, which I would use later in the year. I'm not very worried about fire now, but later in the year I would use it because we've had a lot of wildfires here and people are pretty twitchy about fire.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. We ha we have a similar set up here to an area that's cleared. There's no trees for. Several several meters, at least and in the middle, and then we've got the bowl that it sits in and the little screen like you're talking about, but I mean, the screen we don't use until a little bit later in the fire, because. You have to lift it off and put your word in. And so when you're tending to it. Yeah, but just, you know, we used a lot of safety around that and the fire does not get left. And it's bad for the iron bowl, but we pour water on it afterwards too.  Mark: Yeah,  Yucca: rested one out that way. Cut holes in the bottom  Mark: in a place where the rain can drip on it. So it's getting a little fin. We might have to get another one sometime soon.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But it's really important to have a place where you can have a fire. I it's just. Of all the pig and things. I think having a fire is pretty important.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So what else do we have for, for talking about the Equinox season?  Yucca: Just excited that we're here. There's new things beginning. Actually you have a, a new thing coming up that listeners could be involved  Mark: that's right. Thank you for reminding me. I am teaching a class starting on the 27th of March and it will be three 90 minute sessions every other Sunday. So.  Yucca: this is live class right over, over, zoom. Mark: live a live class over zoom. The title of the class is atheopagan is the clerics path. And so the focus it'll go into, you know, what atheopagan. Perspectives on the world and all that kind of stuff. But the main focus is really on. If you decide that you want to become an ordained cleric, which you can do at the atheopagan society website for free, you just have to indicate that you endorse the atheopagan principles. But that is a community service role. And so this class is about the kinds of things that you can do as a cleric. Like. How to design rituals for weddings or funerals, how to do rites of passage how to do a ministerial counseling for people and how to know when to refer, to refer someone to a professional how to, uh, do prison ministry or, uh, I don't like that word ministry.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Prison outreach say, you know, to support people that are being pagans or atheists or both in prisons or in hospices or in hospitals, all that kind of stuff. So it's going to be a really cool class. I'm excited about it. And it's 75 bucks for the whole class. And there are details about it on the atheopagan website, which is atheopagan ism.org. Uh, if you're in the Facebook group, there's also an event, uh, that you can look for, uh, that will give you all the details about it. And, uh, I hope you'll join us. I, uh, I've already got a bunch of registrants and I think it's going to be a really cool class. So hope that if that's something that interests you, that you'll you'll come on.  Yucca: And since it's a, a live class, you get a chance to participate, right. This isn't just texting back and forth. So when you have questions and you want clarifications then mark, you can be responding at an organic and, you know, awakened alive way thinking that's the spring. Yeah. Mark: And the sessions are going to be recorded. So, what that will do is if you have to miss a session, we'll just send you a link and you can then watch the, the session that you missed. So, you know, I just, and, and there will be time, you know, for me to help you with your personal practice, if that's something that you're interested in we. I just, I think it's going to be a really cool thing. I'm excited about it. I'm designing the participant packet now and I just, I think it's going to be really cool. So.  Yucca: Yeah. Sounds like a ton of fun. So, and will you tell us again where, where everyone can find Mark: Yeah, you can find information about it. There's a post on the blog, the atheopagan blog, which is atheopagan aneurysm.org or in the Facebook group, there is an event in, in the group that you can look for the clerics path. If. You're just curious about it and can't remember those things or can't find it, go ahead and send us an email at the podcast email address and I will respond to it. And that. is the wonder podcast queues@gmail.com. The wonder podcast, Q s@gmail.com. And I look forward to hearing.  Yucca: Yeah, and we love hearing from all of you. We've gotten some amazing emails over the years, and if you have ideas and suggestions for our next hundred podcasts we'd really love to, to hear. Mark: We certainly would. Yes. And thanks so much to the folks that have written in thus far. We, we read everything that gets sent to us and we've, uh, themed some shows on ideas that people have sent us. And pretty soon coming up in may, we're going to do a live podcast broadcast from. From the century retreat, which is the atheopagan gathering that's happening in Colorado Springs. And so during the lunch break on one of the days, we're going to broadcast from there and we can interview people about the experience they're having a retreat and all that kind of stuff. So you'll be able to be plugged in. Even if you aren't able to go to the event itself.  Yucca: Yeah, which still has just a few spots, right? Mark: Yeah. I, I think we've got eight spots left. That's the last that I heard was that we had eight spots.  Yucca: So if you're interested and you've been holding off and now is the time to register. Mark: Right. Yeah. And it's a very affordable event. I mean, the event itself with lodging and meals comes in at around $300. If you're staying in your accommodations, that you can, you can pay for a private room, that kind of stuff. It ends up costing more, but. You know, That's a hundred dollars a day for all this wonderful programming activity and you do of course, have to get yourself to Colorado Springs. That's that's, that's the tricky part,  Yucca: that is near Denver. If you're flying or, you know,  Mark: as I understood.  Yucca: if you're driving.  Mark: Right. As I understand it, it's about another $35. One way to go from Denver to Colorado Springs area. That's that's what I heard. So. I'm not, not that much to get very close. And the Colorado Springs airport is about 30 minutes away by Lyft from the retreat center. Costs about $33, uh, for a Lyft is my understanding. So it's very doable. And we hope to see you there.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: In the meantime, Thank you so much for being a part of the first hundred episodes of the wonder science-based paganism. And we are delighted to be a part of your life. Thanks so much. Yucca: Thank you everyone.

The Skeptical Witch Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWYaJlQZ7zGSfJv-INEgo1A www.obscureclouds.com   S3E6 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder: Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we have a really exciting episode. We are interviewing Sarah, the skeptical witch who has the skeptical, which channel on YouTube. And it's just a super interesting, fascinating person for us to introduce to our listeners. So welcome, Sarah. Sarah: It's really great to be here. Thank you guys for having me on.  Yucca: And thank you for joining us. So we were trying to narrow down all of the things we could talk about before we started too, before we pressed record, because it sounds like we could spend about five hours just going over everything, but why don't we start, Sarah? Will you, will you introduce yourself? Let us know a little bit about you, about your channel and about who you are and what you're doing. Sarah: Yeah, sure. So I'm yeah, Sarah, the skeptical, which on YouTube I also have a blog of scare clouds and that was kind of like my, my beginning of like kind of putting my, my practices with like witchcraft and paganism online. It started with that blog and both that, and my channel kind of came out of a synthesis of my own spiritual practice and kind of what my academic interests are. So, I first came to like witchcraft and paganism through academia actually through like a school project that I was doing. and kind of fell into it that way and started to craft my own practice. Out of that, out of what I was learning out of the kind of communities that I was engaging with. And I was a student in anthropology for my undergrad and my masters. And within that, I started to engage with like various peg in witchcraft community is, and a lot of, a lot of, kind of like what I was experiencing. There was a very, I guess, Wu or like, You know, SU superstitious or like magical these kinds of things that we, that we might say about it. And didn't really necessarily find that there had to be that kind of connection there. So I kind of began to craft my own kind of like skeptical witchcraft practice and a more like naturalistic kind of paganism or like non-theistic paganism as well. And that just kind of grew into to what I put online now. And I just kind of documented my journey through that and try to combine my, what I'm learning with my, my own practice and Yeah.  Yucca: And was there something that really drew you to the pagan stuff when you were doing your master's and undergrad? Sarah: Yeah, I think well, first of all, the kind of the nature aspect of it was what really, really drew me in. I didn't start studying paganism intentionally. I kind of went into studying alternative, like spirituality with a focus on like new age practices. And from there kind of discussed. Paganism and Neo paganism and these things. And I found that to be really, really fascinating and, and just something about it really clicked with me. So in a kind of an anthropological sense in doing ethnography you'll, you'll often, you know, join in with various community rituals and things. So it was joining in all these rituals. I was talking to all these people. I was learning all about the religion and that, yeah. It just, I felt like the nature part, especially really just clicked with me as well as the kind of like self-improvement aspect of it and the kind of like inner exploration and transformation and things like this. So that was what really drew me in and kind of, got me hooked, I guess.  Mark: you know, it's interesting as you say this, because it seems as though naturalistic paganism is something that just gets invented over and over and over. You know, so many of us have kind of created our own and then discovered that there were other people out there who are also doing it. So it's it's kind of wonderful that way. It apparently there is, there's something out there to be found in the wedding of a naturalistic worldview and a scientifically skeptical mindset with a nature earth worshiping or revering kind of practice. So tell us a little bit about your approach to your witchcraft, to the sorts of ritual. And I don't know if you call it spell work or not, or. That's tough. So the practical kind of implementation stuff.  Sarah: Yeah. So, yeah, I guess I do like what I call like skeptical witchcraft and it has a lot of overlap with like atheistic or like secular witchcraft as well. So like you said, there, there were a lot of people like doing this at the same time that I just didn't really like realize we're doing it and it, it kind of took me a while to find that. So it's cool that like, so many of us have kind of been like crafting our own practices. And there's a lot of like similarities there. So, so yeah, my like my particular approach to it is yeah. Using things like spells or like divination or ritual things that would be kind of in a more mainstream witchcraft practice and kind of taking the. I guess the more like supernatural magical elements out of it. So for me, it's largely psychological the way that I approach my witchcraft. So it's, it's largely about you know, setting intentions and like manifesting these intentions, not through transforming like actual physical reality, like out there in the world, but through kind of changing my own mindset, the way that I think about things improving my confidence in a lot of circumstances, you know, changing the way that I see things so that I can then change my own reality. Right. So it's Yeah. less about kind of changing the external world. And a lot of it has to do with like the placebo effect as well as kind of like a suspension of disbelief. And then I also kind of, I don't practice, like what's called chaos, magic and witchcraft necessarily, but like I do like the kind of idea coming out of chaos magic that belief can be used as a tool. And it's not so much necessarily like explanations that matter, but experiences that do. So sometimes I will use that like suspension of disbelief to kind of like allow myself in the moment to like believe in the reality of magic, believe in like the reality of stereotypes or, or something. And, and use that to, to benefit me, even if I like rationally know, like, like that kind of underlying level, that it's not actually true. It's, I'm using belief in the moment as a tool to, to kind of create these experiences and allow myself to to have those really like transformative moments.  Mark: Yeah, that's, you're, you're really singing our tune here. there's, there's so much power in that suspension of disbelief and the acting as if, you know, we, we all talk about the imposter syndrome, how we find ourselves in these roles where there's this voice in us going, I don't really know how to do this. How did they give me this job? Right. And that, that acting as if makes us able to do the job and to grow into the ability to do what we were, you know, what what's expected of us. I, I just think that all of that stuff is so fascinating and it's very similar to the way that I do my own ritual practices at my, at my focus or alter and in rituals, out in the world, Yucca: Can we, can we come back around to, to the too skeptical? Right? So you've got the skeptical, which, and what does that part mean to you? Right. So what is it to be a skeptic or skeptical? Because that has some strong connotations, that word in our, in our culture. So how are you using that? Sarah: Yeah, for Sure I guess that's just like where I was coming from it with with the skeptical idea was kind of just always questioning things. Never, just kind of accepting things like at face value, always having that like kind of inquisitive mind. And I think that that's important when it comes to like, you know, anything really. So like whether it's the supernatural or whether it's, you know, mainstream science, like, I think it's always important to be kind of asking questions and, and having like a skeptical outlook and not necessarily in like a negative way, but I think that that can be a positive. But then, yeah. But on the flip side, I also do kind of. I think that embracing mystery and sometimes knowing when to stop asking questions can also be a good thing as well. And I do try to find that balance too.  Yucca: Nice. Mark: skeptical, but not cynical. Sarah: Yeah. exactly. I like.  Mark: Yeah. So, you, the, the other part of, of introducing you is that you are a PhD camp. And religious studies and you're doing your work on naturalistic, paganism and naturalistic religious paths, which is so fascinating. I mean, if, if I had, if I were in grad school again, if it were 30 years ago or whatever it was that is a direction that I almost certainly would have gone. So I'm really interested in what you're learning and what those experiences are and what, how that's changing your perspective on the world. And what's important. All that kind of thing.  Sarah: Yeah,  Mark: There. Wasn't a question in there. I'm sorry. I. Sarah: No, no. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm very happy that like, yeah, I guess the state of. Yeah, academia right now is such that I. can kind of study these more like obscure topics, things that probably would have been like laughed at like 15 years ago. So it's cool that this is becoming more and more acceptable. And actually one of the one of my committee members has actually studied atheopagan in the past as  well. So it's really interesting to know that it's kind of, spreading within the academic world as well. Yeah. So yeah, I'm, I'm really interested in my own personal research is probably going to be focusing on the connection between like religion and science and the environment. And these are topics that are sometimes discussed in relation to one another, but never like all three of them usually, like there isn't much kind of discussion around the intersection of all three of those. So that's kind of where I'm hoping to fill a bit of a gap. And I guess I'm really interested in like the question of secularization and like how that's transforming religion and religious meaning and spirituality and how. How people find transcendence and kind of, meaning beyond the individual ego within the modern secular world. And one of the ways that people are finding that is, is through nature now. And that's kind of replacing more traditional, like organized religion or like church structures nowadays. So that's yeah, that's the one kind of aspect of it. And also just how, like, even scientists are reporting feelings of like transcendence kind of just in the lab, looking at, you know, natural phenomena or astronauts kind of looking at it, or having these moments of awe and like, really like spiritually profound moments. So I'm really interested in, in how transcendence and like that experience is shifting and changing today. And Yeah. Also considering contested relationships that exist between like religion and the environment, and also like science and the environment. And so, and, and also religion and science, like for a lot of people, religion and science seem to be like polar opposites and that's not necessarily the case and religions like atheopagan ism and other forms of religious naturalism are really like challenging that binary. And it's just kind of interesting to explore how things are really shifting today.  Mark: Yeah. I, I find it fascinating, you know, kind of, you know, Yucca and I are both kind of in the middle of it because we're kind of working to get, put this out into the world. And to me, it just seems so natural now. I mean, I think when I was first exploring these ideas, religion and science were kind of bashing against one another, but when I stopped. Looking at it that way they seem to dovetail very well. And that, that sense, I don't really like the word transcendence very much except for sort of transcending the individual into some, you know, larger state of some consciousness of, of connection and place in the universe. It seems to me that what's happening is we're moving into an era of spiritual agency where people are able to choose their own paths rather than having them kind of force fed to them. And what they're going back to is what is most inspiring and nature is what is most inspiring and space. I mean, space is very, very inspiring. It's part of Yucca: nature, right? Nature. Yeah. It's all connected. Right? We liked it as humans. We like to separate. Okay. This is chemistry. This is physics. This is space. This is neat, but no, like it's all connected, right? Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mark: So I think this is a very exciting time to be getting involved with these questions. And there are a lot of people out there who are hungry for this. Have so many experiences of it on the atheopagan doesn't Facebook group of people coming in and saying, you know, I had no idea that anybody else felt this way. And I thought I was the only one and I found my people and this is just the most wonderful thing. And it, it makes, it makes me imagine a world. Where people could be taught from a young age that their spirituality is their own and they could be taught ritual skills so that they can sort of discover for themselves what's meaningful. I find that the further I go down this path, the more my vision of the world is veering away from the way it actually there's a lot of change that needs to happen. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's an interesting point though. And I think that that's like a really wonderful vision for the future too. And I do wonder, like, as someone who studies like alternative spirituality, like I do see things kind of going in that direction in some sense. So like a lot of like American spirituality today is, is very individualistic and it's criticized for that in some ways, but it can also be a good thing and that it's, you know, it's more about discovering what works for you and you know yeah, exactly. Like kind of giving you the, the, the tools for ritual and then kind of letting you discover what you will with that.  Yucca: Hmm. So Sarah, how does one go about studying and researching these topics? Because these are amazing questions, but w where does one even start? Right? This is such a huge, huge field, right? Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, I'm actually in the midst of doing my my comprehensive exams right? now. And I just did my general comprehensive exams and I'll be moving into my field comprehensive exams. And so I'm going to be studying kind of my committee is just going to put together a large list of books for me, like on these topics to kind of give you that, that foundation for, for actually going and then doing the research. And then the research that I'm hoping to do is going to be a mostly online ethnography, I think. So I'll be hopefully like engaging in various like religious naturalist kind of communities online and learning about it from the people who actually practice it. Like the, the secondary research is important. But it's, it's really that primary research. Define what we learned from this, what I learned from it, I guess.  Yucca: Right. So, so for our listeners, the secondary would be what you're talking about, digging into the existing research, right? Like you're going to learn, read all the books that you can find everything that's out there. And then you're going to do your primary research, which is the unique. Nobody has done this before. You're going to be, go into communities, ask questions, observe, be recording. What you, what you see and hear is that, am I understanding correctly?  Sarah: Yeah. yeah, exactly. Yeah.  Mark: Well, we have a golden opportunity for you coming up in may. If you want to do some field research, we're doing the century retreat in Colorado Springs in may. We would be delighted to have you come and join. A bunch of atheopagan is doing atheopagan things, rituals, fellowship, and all that. Sarah: Yeah, that. sounds fantastic. Yeah,  Mark: I'll send you some information about it. Yeah. Sarah: perfect. Yeah. that'd be great. Thank you.  Mark: You're welcome. Be great to have you there. Yucca: So after, after your, your kind of literature review set part of your studies, then you're going to be coming up with a specific question you're looking for an answer to, that, is that how it works?  Sarah: yeah. Yeah, exactly. So after these exams, they kind of, the literature review. I'm gonna create my, my proposal basically. That will then allow me to go and actually figure out what the answer to that question is. So  Yucca: then you create a lot of literature of your own to add to that body, right? That's part of the process, Sarah: hopefully that's the goal. Yeah.  Mark: and so, and I realized that this is a really dirty question to ask a PhD candidate. What is your vision for what you'll do with this is your plan to go into academia and teach in religious studies or to be a chaplain or to be a naturalistic clergy member of some kind or. Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I, I'm hoping to go into academia further, but unfortunately right now it's, it's it's not looking good for new  Yucca: the changing world. Sarah: Yeah.  So unfortunately, you know, we'll see if that's actually a reality, but I, I do hope to, to write a lot on kind of what I've discovered, like that's kind of my number one passion. And I think that got me into academics in the first place was just a love for writing. So hopefully that's something that I'll be able to do, regardless of whether I actually get hired in a university or not.  Mark: great. Great. You could write the the naturalistic paganism drawing down the moon for the 21st century. It'd be great.  Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I was listening to one of your or watching one of your YouTube videos recently, and you were talking about post humanism and I'm really interested in that because I feel that. a lot of, a lot of how our spiritual orientations are trying to sort of steer the ship of history is in a more nature revering ecosystem, respecting direction. And of course it's very slow, but that perspective of getting beyond humanism, beyond the focus, simply on the human and the benefit to the human and that's, that's not discounting the human as I, at least as I understand it, it's encompassing of the human, but it expands to be so much more. What, tell us about that. That would be.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah post humanism is kind of like a philosophy worldview or just kind of a an approach to kind of thinking about things. That's very much a reaction against like enlightenment humanism, so that focus on human beings as these like bounded rational subjects that exists in kind of like this isolated world of their own. They're kind of separate from the rest of the world. They're separate from other people. There's an emphasis on dualisms and humanism. So kind of creating that separation between self and other self and world human and, or like nature and culture and postmodernism is just reacting against that and really trying to deconstruct those dualisms. And there's a lot of like that enlightenment humanist kind of thinking, that's still within a lot of our modern systems and like a lot of our modern ways of thinking about things. So, that's, that's kind of where post-feminism is coming from. And it especially plays a role in how I approach, like thinking about the environment and ecology, and also spirituality is like part of that. So, I guess one of the Major kind of criticisms of, of like environmentalism or like conservation ism today. And this is something that you guys can maybe enlightened me about a little bit as well, is that there's a very like subject object. Dichotomous way of thinking about things. So the researcher or like science in general, like this kind of scientific body of knowledge will often be positioned as having this like neutral kind of God's eye view. That's like separate from the actual natural world, separate from things as they are. And, and it's like a very disembodied kind of way of thinking about things that doesn't think about human beings necessarily as, as part of that like natural world. And I guess we see this a lot in kind of like resource management kind of based ways of thinking about ecology and Ways of thinking about it that are very focused on like the economy and things. So I, the post-human approach and like new materialism, which is a part of that. And all of this is kind of part of a of a critique of that and a critique of like, this is a barrier that's really constructed between like nature and culture. And I know that that's like also something that like atheopagan ism is, is concerned with and the, you guys have kind of discussed on the podcast as well. And so. There have been arguments within like science and technology studies or like environmentalism that say we need kind of like a, a spiritual perspective almost to kind of combat that, that divide and to kind of be thinking about forming more like ethical reciprocal relationships with the non-human world in ways that are like actually helpful to both us ans and the non-human world. So, yeah, so I think like a post-human perspective and a spiritual perspective can go hand in hand in that sense. And I, that's kind of how I connect them in my own thinking. So yeah. I wonder what you guys think of other thought as well.  Yucca: Oh so much. Mark: Yes, Yucca: so much in that. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: have no dispute here. Yucca: Yeah. I mean, there was, there was just so, like, I love everything that you were saying and just, you know, my mind just went full of things to comment upon that. My, my original background is in resource management, so, range, ecology and management, and then agricultural ecology before I went into planetary science. So I still actually work as an ecologist and a restoration ecologist specifically for range land. And one of the, the things that I've seen in the field is that a lot of science we're coming from this reductionist point of view and reductionism is really, really helpful and useful way of thinking. It's a tool. And in ecology, we've been starting to move away from that into a more systems thinking emergence, sort of. That starts to see the connections, but there's, there's still more right? There's that the ethics piece that you were talking about, which is what I think things like permaculture tries to address that's guided with the like, oh, let's have, you know, people care and fair share and are sharing all of that. But there's this tricky place where we get into where we run into things like our confirmation bias that we talk about a lot on this podcast that we haven't figured out a way to do really good science and also bring in the, the systems thinking enough, I think because we, we get into this place where we were humans. We're not very good at telling the difference between what we think and what we feel. And we confused my, my emotional response to what this land looks like or what, you know, I believe about this particular animal or that animal. And we kind of let that in. And so I think there's a lot of resistance with scientists of not wanting the, all of that bias to come in. And that's part of, what's like trying to hold back. The let's not think about that side of it because we, we don't want to be doing bad science, but we haven't gotten to the point of where we need to bring more, to expand our understanding of what these systems are kind of rambling here, but yeah, Mark: No, I, I, I, I think what you're saying is absolutely true. And part of the problem is that in the scientific frame, we discount the experiential and subjective Yucca: right. Mark: and the experiential, we discounted to the point that we throw it away entirely. Yucca: Yeah. So we're putting the baby out with the bath water because it's important, but we also don't want it to take over the objective part, right? Mark: Yeah. You don't want to romanticize the, the natural system that you're looking at to the degree that you can't make any decisions anymore about how to relate to it. Yucca: yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess kind of like adding to that, like another aspect of post-feminism is giving voice to people's who have been previously silenced by who have not necessarily been considered human because they have not been considered, you know, rational. Communities people. So like indigenous peoples for example and post-feminism kind of is trying to center those voices a little more. And I think that that's also like something in ecology as well, that we're seeing too, like taking these more kind of like spiritual, not necessarily like Western science-based kind of perspectives and applying that to how we understand our relationships with the environment and how they can be improved and things. So, is that something that you've noticed as well? Like maybe more so  Mark: Some  Sarah: ecology today? A little bit.  Mark: it, the challenge that I've experienced, because most of my involvement has been well, there've been kind of two buckets of what I've done. I've done a lot of advocacy, a lot of public organizing and advocacy on behalf of, of nature. And then I've also worked in the restoration field. Basically generating the funding to pay for restoration projects. I'm not designing those projects. That's not my area, but what I've seen, especially on the advocacy side is that there is such complete contempt for the experiential on the part of economic interests. Then it becomes very difficult to even get them in the room. You know, there's the whole NIMBY thing, right? Not in my backyard is an accusation that gets made by everybody who wants to do some God awful earth ribbing project. And their, their response is, well, this is my land. And I want to maximize the economic value that I can get out of it. And it doesn't matter, you know, if it doesn't matter what a complete. Blight on the land. It's going to be, as long as they can quantify that there, they won't have polluted runoff or air quality impacts or any of those kinds of things. You know, the simple fact that something is an abomination, doesn't get into the discussion. Yucca: My, my situation we live in, in very different areas. I'm in Northern New Mexico, which is very interesting cultural area. And there's a lot of, of tensions that are, are, you know, centuries old tensions around land use and management. Because we have, we, we talk about it as being three different main groups, but it's it's much, much more complex than that. So we have the pueblos here, so we've got the tribes and then we have the old Spanish families and then we have the newer Anglos. And then a lot of that land is managed now by forest service and BLM and from almost everyone's perspective, it was stolen from them. So there's a whole. Going on with that. But what I have been often involved with, because again, my area is actually in range. Ecology is dealing with public lands where there will be people with very, very strong ideas about what animals are good and what aren't and what things should look like and what things shouldn't look like. And I think a lot of it is also like they would never admit it, but I think a lot of it is, is racially motivated because the people who are. Ranchers. Aren't Anglo. And so there's a, there's a lot of like people who come in, especially from, other states and Northern, sorry, Northern California can come in with very strong ideas about how the land should be managed and about what's environmentally right. And not, and have a really hard time listening to what the people are saying. And to, to even be able to see that something like a cow could be good, right. If the people have these really strong ideas, they come in with the, like the super vegan bias and all of that. And like, oh, you can't don't touch the land. And it's pristine wilderness and forgetting, but people have been here for thousands of years and people have been here for hundreds of years and that there, that there's there's. There's the science, there's also the way that people manage culturally. And we have to consider all of those things, not just, and also that some of the signs that they're bringing in might not be good science that they're claiming, right.  That they don't understand how ranges work and how these systems work. And so where I live, it's, it's there's just a lot of, of tension and there's a lot of, people trying to work this out and different, cultural groups clashing and not really being able to talk about what's really going on. And it's a lot of, it's very emotional and old trauma and people totally oblivious. And I mean, that's, this could be a whole, it is many, many podcasts. Lots of people do this. But it's a very interesting area. So I know that you, you kind of coming back to your question about do we see that in our fields. That the, there being a, a growing awareness. And I think that there, there is a growing awareness. I see a lot of places where we need the work. Right. It's a very where I live. It's, it's very raw. It's very, very real. And it's right. Like I, you know, I, I don't know if you can hear it, but I, you know, have very strong feelings about it because I look at as a range of colleges, I look at the land and I, and I see that it's, that it's very, very damaged land. But then, you know, it's hard to say that because there'll be people who, who go, but it's so beautiful. Right. You know, leave it alone. Don't do anything. Don't touch it. And then ecologists like myself going, if we don't touch it, we're losing it. Mark: It it'll get covered with star thistle and nothing else. Yucca: or nothing. We're talking about land that has, that is we do not have soil in these areas and they're going, oh no, this is natural. And I'm like, this does not look that this erosion here, like we have to do something and they say, no, no, no humans have messed it up. Humans can't go in and touch it. You know, we we've messed everything up, but it's like, well, okay. But if the broken bone is broken, you need to set that bone. You've got to get involved. Or else, I guess we could let nature take its path in that. And just as in, let it degrade even further and lose even more biodiversity where we can take some steps. Right. so Mark: the big piece that I hear missing from your description of the situation, and it's the same one that I experienced up here is the concept of reciprocity that we have. Responsibilities to land and animals and water and air and trees and all that kind of thing. And that, that w what we take has to be balanced by what we give. And that's just such an alien concept in the west that it, it almost never even gets voiced. Yucca: Well, and, and at least for this half of the continent, I think it it's, we're not at a point of balance. We're at a point of, we need to be giving more because we have such degraded lands and, and being that humans have such short lifespans, we may not recognize that at first, right. We might look out at the west or we might look out at the planes and go, oh, this is beautiful. And it is beautiful, but it's also hurt and sick and we can, we can see that it needs to be that. That it is degrading and that it's going to keep degrading unless we do something. So, Mark: Okay. Yucca: Yeah,  Sarah: yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. And I think that that's also, I guess, I guess like a perspective that could tie into post you as, as well just like kind of going back to that like the, the idea of like pure nature is, is just an illusion and to have that human intervention is not a bad thing. And yeah. And I guess there have been some like, oh, sorry, go ahead.  Yucca: part of nature, right? Like that's showing this idea that like, human shouldn't intervene. Well, no, but, but we're here and at least where I'm sitting right now, we've been here for about 20,000 years, right. Or more, but at least 20,000 years, we know that, right. Like humans, we talk about us as if we're oh, humans intervening, but, but no matter what we do, we're influencing. The system so we can choose what we're like, we're making choices either way. So, and I'm sorry, Sarah. I jumped, I was very excited and  Sarah: Oh no, Yeah. no, no. Yeah. exactly. No, that's a great point. And yeah, it was just going to say, like, this is also something that like, you know, indigenous people, like who have been on this land for thousands of years, like they've, they've known that for, for millennia. And you know, that's kind of where I think listening to these voices can be really important and then kind of learning from that. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And indigenous people, some, some indigenous people have in their history, the experience of the disaster of mismanagement of land, right. There are, you know, abandoned civilizations where, you know, soil got so depleted that it just couldn't produce food anymore. And people had to move out and go somewhere else. The end. That's very powerful lesson, you know, I would think you would learn a lot from having to disrupt your culture that seriously. So I've been thinking a lot lately about vision for the future. I mean, I, I think of atheopagan ism is as having a definite political component to it and and it, and a visionary component for how humans can live with one another and with the earth with the rest of the earth, because we are of course the earth. And I wonder. wonder whether your research is going to move, it will include any like speculation about where naturalistic spirituality is going. Or if you have thoughts about that or, you know, what the trends are that you see happening,  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that that's, I mean, like, that's honestly, probably like one of the big questions that my research is going to be asking, because I think that is like a really important question. And I think, you know, what, what I've seen so far is that. What's really important is this shift in mindset that we've been talking about, like kind of moving away from like that, that divide between like peer nature and like human and nature and culture, and like, you know, breaking down those barriers and entering into like more reciprocal relationships with the non-human and kind of seeing it in more of a kinship sense. And I guess, yeah, like one of the big questions that I do want to ask is like, how can religions help us in this? Like it beyond the context of those specific religions, right? Like how can this become more of a, a political or global kind of thing that we're thinking about? And You know, I don't necessarily like have an answer for that yet, but that is something that I do hope to answer. And I think that it's, it's really going to be the people that I talk to or who are going to be answering that. And like, it's going to come out of, you know, seeing, seeing the work that they're doing and the kind of mindsets that they have and the approaches that they take to engaging with the environment and considering how, how we can learn from that in, in a, in a more broad kind of sense. So, yeah, it's definitely an important question.  Yucca: One of the things that you talked about being really interested in was how, how people find meaning and importance and talking about how in, in some of these forms of paganism, like an atheopagan ism and other alternative religions that are more nature-based and science-based how people are, are looking for that meaning. Is that something that, I mean, can you speak to that a little bit?  Sarah: Yeah. Do you mean like from a personal  Yucca: no. Oh, either way, like from a personal sense or things or trends that you've been seeing, I know you're just getting started with your research, but are there particular trends that you're seeing. Sarah: yeah. Yeah, so I think that like in general they're often like when thinking about like modern, secular society from, from kind of a mainstream perspective, there's often been this idea that like, you know, rationalization and like this kind of. The more scientifically become the less and chanted the world becomes. And the less like, meaningful the world becomes an kind of like an ethical or like sacred sense. And I think from what I've been studying, this isn't the case at all, like secularization may cause like, a decline in more organized forms of religion. But I think it also increases religious pluralism and it increases like more kind of individual approaches to, to finding spiritual meaning. And I think that we're also really seeing like a blurring of the sacred and the secular and that's, that's also something I'm really interested in is how you know, things that would have once been considered secular, like nature are becoming very spiritual and people are finding kind of their own version of the divine in that, whatever that may be. Or the transcendent and I don't mean that in like a God way necessarily. I just mean it in, I think kind of what you said, mark, like, something that's bigger than, than you kind of sense or like a, a sense of yeah, just, just meaning that, that goes beyond that, like ego or, or kind of our, our everyday lives that we're caught up in and things like that. So, yeah, so nature is kind of one area even science, sports, you know, also like popular culture and materialism, like even, even that can be like a place where people are finding like maybe not spiritual experiences, but like different kinds of, like, of meaning and, and yeah, if that kinda makes sense.  Mark: Sure. Well, I mean, under, under capitalism, what you accumulate is who you are. So, you know, the, your identity gets all bound up in the meaning of your life. It's all bound up in, you know, your wealth and your possessions. Oh, that kind of stuff. So, I mean, I'm, I really hope we can move away from that because it's incredibly destructive, but there's no doubt that acquisition is something that many people find gives them meaning in their life. And I think that's why we have a lot of people who have kind of a hole in the middle of them. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, sure, sure.  Yucca: So Sarah, when you, when you speak of secular or secularization, what do you, what do you mean by that? Right. Because a lot of the, cause you're talking about religion, but secular this, it could be a little bit like I'm a little bit confused sometimes on what does that really mean? Right? Is it just not organized religion or is it no religion at all? Is that word changing? Its meaning over time. Sarah: Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, that's a good question. I should have addressed that kind of going into it, but it is like a really complex question too. So like secularization, as we generally think about it kind of comes out of like the 1960s sociology and like that general idea was just like a decline in religion in modern society. So that's like, that's the typical way of thinking about secularization is that like, you know, as you know, we learn more about the world and we have kind of more scientific knowledge about the world around us religious religions they were thought anyway to that they would be declining. And, and we're not necessarily seeing that. So. The secular in general is more just like this idea that we live now in a society where, well, the way that I see it anyway, there's many different ways of approaching it, but like it's more than we just, we live in a society where we, where religion is, is an option. Now it's one option among many kind of, so, You know, whereas like 200 years ago it would have been pretty like unthinkable that you weren't religious in some sense. Right. But now it's, it's, you know, it's just an option and belief isn't like the default anymore. And so that's kind of like the idea of the secular as I'm talking about it. And Yeah. So, secularization is also something that I'm going to be kind of looking at in my own research. And it's something that my supervisor is kind of looking at and just like this idea of, we need to redefine what secularization actually is, because we're not seeing this decline in religion. That was that was predicted in, in the way that it was predicted. Religion is changing, but it's not disappearing Yucca: So, was it referring in the beginning when, like not being religious to not being one of like the big three kind of,  Sarah: kind of,  Yucca: religion at all? Cause I know there's been over time, there's been back and forth about what people consider religion. That's one of the things that atheopagan get thrown at them a lot. So he can't possibly be a religion cause you're not, you don't believe in a God. Right. And people have said that about Buddhism and people have said that about, you know, a lot of the Eastern religions or things like that. Sarah: Yeah, no, for sure. It was definitely like thought that kind of yeah, like religion in general and like, just like a religious way of seeing things. So like, I guess in opposed to like a scientific way of seeing things. But also there's no necessarily no necessarily kind of like harsh divide between those things but, but yeah, I guess like secularization in the, in the 1960s, when it was first kind of theorized was, was very much of a, like um, yeah, these kind of main organized religious traditions and they are kind of declining. I think that. but in like an organized sense. more just they're changing, I guess.  Mark: Sure because I mean, the spiritual impulse is something that's baked into us. You know, many of us have kind of culturally headed hammered out of us. Particularly men. I mean, when I, when I look at mainstream men, I they're, they're permitted an effect is so narrow. They're allowed to be aggressive or angry. That's their emotional range. And they've got this work ethic about, you know, work yourself to death and, you know, don't, don't acknowledge when things are going wrong with your body and all that kind of stuff. But it seems as though. Given an opportunity given, given a culture that fosters it, the spiritual impulse is something that pretty much everybody has because it answers big questions about who am I and what does it mean to be alive and how should I live? And, you know, those are, those are important questions to get answered for yourself. So I think this idea from the sixties that we were going to become more and more rational actors in a sort of economic sense it just flies in the face of reality. I talk about this in my book a little bit. You know, the reason that Richard Dawkins is barking up the wrong tree is that he assumes that humans are these rational creatures. If they can just get all that damn religion out of their minds. And we are inherently biologically, not rational actors, the nature of our brains as they evolved, prevent us from being rational actors, which is why science is so valuable because it enables us to kind of filter out the subjectivity as best we can and draw conclusions. But I dunno, I'm ranting now, but I, I just feel like spirituality is something that's always going to be with us for as long as we're human.  Sarah: for sure. And I really like appreciated that part of your, your book was kind of discussing like, that aspect of human cognition that is just kind of inclined towards spirituality or religion, or like finding meaning in some way. And I think it's, it's very true and this kind of assumption that we would just become like overly rational and kind of let go of that spiritual impulse. I think it was kind of fundamentally flood and that's why we're not seeing it. And Yeah. Mark: Well, let me ask this. Is there anything you would like for our listeners to know about you're thinking about, you know, what you're learning that you're you find surprising or edifying or something that really people really need to know? Sarah: That's, that's a good question. One thing that I've just kind of experienced, I guess, just from like, Do we like having this YouTube channel and having a blog and everything and kind of putting what I'm learning online is that my thinking is constantly changing. And I'll go back like, and listen to like a video that I did a year ago. And I'll think like, you know, I still hold some of those beliefs, but a lot of them have changed and it's just kind of constantly changing. And I think that, I guess that's maybe something that I'd want people to know, like if they watched my content. But other than that I guess just the importance of finding your own path when it comes to spirituality and religion and witchcraft. I get like a lot of. Comments from viewers saying that, you know, they, they always felt like they couldn't practice witchcraft or they couldn't be religious because there's just this very, you know, they kind of see the mainstream dominant way of practicing witchcraft or being religious and, and they, they don't see themselves in that. But I think that, you know? having discussions like these and like your, your your podcast and like, your work and everything that kind of goes to show that there are different ways of, of being a Pegan today. And there are different ways of practicing witchcraft and, and being religious. And you don't have to kind of conform to. but what seems to be expected in that sense. And even if people find it weird, even if people find it confusing there is always going to be someone who thinks similarly to you. And it's just a matter of finding that, I think. Mark: But I saw a bumper sticker once it said something like there are others. Go find them.  Sarah: Yeah,  Mark: However alone you feel there are others go find them, Yucca: well, and that's how it always starts. Right? What's normal to us and expected today was weird and strange. And there were just only a few people doing it at one point, right. We, today we can sit here and talk about mainstream paganism. Right? Think about that for a moment. That was not that wasn't something we, that one used to be able to do. Everything was weird and confusing and kind of, you know, looked down the nose at, but now the whole movement is growing and, and it's going to be changing and. And, you know, you can fit into it or not. There's a way that works for you. Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: When WCA has been referenced, recognized by the U S government as a, as an official religion for purposes of the military, that's a, that's a pretty big step. Yucca: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. definitely. Yeah. It's not so fringe anymore.  Mark: Right? Right. Well, you know, do believe that a lot of what's happening with the, the, the rise of the nones, N O N E S in, certainly in the United States has to do with people flocking away from the hardcore right-wing ideologies of many of those religious entities and paganism by and large is not. It's generally something that's much more inclusive, much more tolerant, much more progressive. It's about people developing themselves and being the best people they can be. And it's about a better world. And I, you know, for the same reasons that people are attracted to star Trek, I think they get attracted to, you know, being part of a movement. That's about being better people and being part of a better world.  Sarah: Yeah, definitely.  Mark: Well, Sarah, this has been wonderful. It has really been enjoyable to talk with you about all this. And as Yucca said, we could go on for another three hours about all the, all the things. I really encourage people to check out your YouTube channel the skeptical, which Yucca: LinkedIn, the show notes. Mark: Good. Okay. Very thoughtful, very interesting engaging stuff. So, and we, we really appreciate your coming on the podcast. It's been great to have you here. Sarah: Yeah, it's been really great to be on here. So thank you guys so much.  Yucca: Thanks Sarah.  

The Inner Critic: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/the-inner-critic-1612153312/ The Body: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/the-body-1627969025/ Beyond Misanthropy: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/beyond-misanthropy/ Decomposition and You: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/decomposition-and-you/ Pagan Families: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/pagan-families/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E47 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Mark. And today we are doing our end of the year. Wrap up. Episode we're going to look backward and forward and talk a little bit about things that we can do to prepare for the coming new year. Setting some vision for where we're, we're all going to go. And just sort of also really reflect on everything that we've put out this year on the podcast is there's been a lot of content.  Yucca: Yeah, they're really, as this'll be this looking at it now, this will be our 47th episode for this year. Mark: That is Pretty close to every week.  Yucca: close. Yeah. Mark: a few weeks that we had to cancel for one reason or another, but boy, 47 and this. Wow.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: be our third year two. We're going into, we started back in the beginning of 2020, and we're going into 2022. course. I can't believe that we are. It doesn't feel like 20, 21 has happened. Mark: You know, we talked about this before. It is the weirdest thing. 2020 took about seven years. It went on and on and on. And I mean, there was the, the, the lead up to the election and there was the. The pandemic. And there were just all these horrible things that kept happening. Ruth Bader Ginsburg died and, you know, just all these awful things,  Yucca: from fires  Mark: all that stuff. Yeah. And, you know, floods and hurricanes and, oh my goodness. and. then 2021 came along and it was lickety split. Okay. We've got a pandemic, but it seemed like. January six was kind of the last, the last crisis of 2020. I sort of counted that as part of 2020. But things have gotten much more quickly since, and it really is hard to believe that 2021 is over.  Yucca: Yeah, so, but there's been, as we were just saying, you know, almost 50, almost 50 episodes of this getting together and talking about a lot of really great topics and we've had a few interviews and which hopefully we'll be having more of next year as well. That's been really lovely to have guests on. So.  Mark: So. We decided that we would spotlight five of our favorite episodes from this past year. And that obviously that's a trick in and of itself. If you've got 50 episodes, then you've got, you only get to pick one in 10. Right. But we went over them. And so these are the ones that we that we've decided to to highlight for you. And if you haven't heard them, you may consider going back into the archive on the podcast website and listening to those, Yucca: And we'll put links as well in the show notes. So yeah, whatever you're listening on. Just go ahead and look below and you can click on that and go right to them. Mark: Yep. And even if you've heard them before, you might want to give them. a listen again. I mean, we, we agreed that there was a lot of content that we think is really valuable in these episodes. And So. These are, these are keepers.  Yucca: Yeah, well, the first one is one that we've actually referenced quite a bit. It's one that way back, we're looking at February 1st, we talked about the inner critic. Mark: Yes. And this is such a, such a big issue for humans generally, I think, but especially steeped in the over culture of, you know, shame about the self and feeling constantly judged and questioning our value. The inner critic. becomes a real, a real stumbling block to being able to do the things that we want to do or to feel free enough to express ourselves. And as ritual practitioners, it particularly can get in our way, because it's really hard when you're there and you've got your focus all laid out and you're going to light the candles and the incense and the. Shrill voice in the back of your head is going, this is stupid and you're making an idiot out of yourself. And what is this stuff all about? It's not reasonable. And we all have to find a way to calm that voice, to meet it and calm it and push through it so that we can be as alive as we really want to be.  Yucca: Right. There were, there was a lot that we talked about in that episode, including what the purpose of the critic voice is, where it comes from. And then I think my favorite part though, is that we talked about ways of dealing with that  Mark: Right.  Yucca: and brainstormed some fun, different kinds of rituals you could do or just strategies. And it's something that I found myself thinking back. When my own critic has been very loud throughout the year and going well, we talked about this idea. Re-purposing, you know, giving it another job to be doing and all sorts of things like  that. So, Mark: It's, it's kind of interesting. I do, I do the same thing sometimes I'll, I'll run up against some kind of an issue and then I'm like, wait a minute. I seem to remember we had something good to say about that. Maybe I'll go and listen to it and take our own words to heart. So, that was the first. And I really encourage people to listen to that, that, that episode, because this really is something that we all contend with and it's a very human struggle and you know, I think many of us may know people who seem to have actually pushed past the point where the inner critic has a real control over their lives. And they're larger than life people. They're just sort of amazing, you know, filled with laughter and energy. And you can really see that at some point they've given themselves permission to be the fullness of who they are. And it's a beautiful thing to see.  Yucca: Yeah. So again, the link for that is in the show notes. If people want to check that out, we do really invite you to. Mark: So what was our next episode we picked?  Yucca: So our next was the body. Mark: Oh yeah, the body,  Yucca: Yes. The body. And so this is probably one that we said, oh yeah. And we talked about the inner critic for this one. Yeah. this is one that I think we can come back to again and again, there's so many layers. Mark: indeed, indeed. And there are. I mean, I think that there are different issues for people that have different living experiences. I know that for people like you and me Jaco, where our emphasis has very much been on learning and education and reason, and a lot of cogitating it's much harder to. Kind of get away from that very thinky state and immerse more in the body as, as a part of ourselves, right? As, as, as ourselves, not, not just a robot that we use to walk ourselves around, but truly an integrated part of who we are as being.  Yucca: And we talked to about some of the, the pressures coming from the over culture and what we grew up with. And that, by the way, is the topic that we're going to be coming back to soon as a full episode, talking about the over culture. You know, just some of those pressures and the shame and all of that, and really being able to get into ourselves and, and about how the body isn't really separate, you know, we're even talking about right now is being separate the body versus the mind. But those aren't really different things. Mark: Right, right. It's all, it's all one integrated system. And even our language won't let us talk about it. You know, we are, our language is so. Immersed in the idea of the the dualism of Mind, and body that we, we don't have a word for. The self that implies all of that. Even when we say the self that sort of implies the mind, the personality, the  Yucca: whatever soul  Mark: ghost, the ghost in the machine. Right. Whereas the machine is seen as less important and as this sort of dumb rule, And that's not what's going on here. It's an entirely different thing. So, that I think is a really interesting episode and I'm sure we'll be revisiting, you know, a number of those issues because it goes to, goes to self-image and body image and sexuality and everything.  Yucca: Right. Mark: No, it really does go to all those different places. And what was the date on That  Yucca: That was August 2nd.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: Yeah. And then not long after. So in September, September 20th we talked about misanthropy fact it was called beyond. Mark: Yeah, that was a kind of a solemn conversation. Most of it, as I recall, because it's really a sad thing, you know, we were living in a time that many see as a district. And one of the things people tend to want to do when they are unhappy with how things are going is they want someone to blame. And so blaming humanity is, and just having kind of a, a dim view of humanity as a whole is one way that people come to grips with. The Anthropocene and the sixth extinction and climate change and, you know, massive plastic pollution everywhere and all the, the many, many problems that we see. And our conclusion was that that's neither accurate nor helpful. Really.  Yucca: not very productive. Mark: It's not that humans are not responsible for these things. We're fully cognizant that we are responsible for these things, but just kind of throwing all of us in the trashcan and saying, well, I I'm, I'm on team trees rather than teen humans. It doesn't, it doesn't really do much for us. And it's an angry. Stance and anger can be a powerful motivator. It can drive activism that can help make things better. But underneath that anger, there has to be love activism and, you know, revolutionary activity and all that kind of stuff. That's only been rooted in rage has never led anywhere. Good.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It just has. So wanting what's good for the biosphere and for humanity is really an important piece. And we talked a little bit about ways to kind of move yourself in that direction. It was a good conversation about.  Yucca: Yeah. And there definitely were some, some kind of hopeful sparks in there. And that's really the takeaway that I would hope people would have is that, oh, you know, just. Hating us and just giving up and throwing up your hands about it. Isn't going to help anybody, but, but look, you know, there's these, we can actually, all these things that we don't like about humans. There's a flip side to that. It really depends on how you frame it and what you then choose to do with it. Mark: Right. You know, we were talking about the over culture a minute ago. One of the things that we tend to do is we assume that our experience of humans is the way humans are that we're just built that way. We are cultural animals and we are driven by the culture that we absorb as we are raised. I was, we, we had dinner with friends last night and one of my friends was saying, you know, more and more, I'm thinking that. The only way that I can get my mind to the right place around issues of equity and equality. And the earth is to re indigenize myself to, to go to a radically different way of understanding the relationship between humans and the natural world. And I think that's what we've been saying. In, you know, in the podcast in the wonder repeatedly is that really, you know, we, we can't just keep stumbling along through industrial capitalism and hoping that we're going to come up with a, a magic widget that's going to solve the problems. You know, it's going to take. More fundamental and substantive change than that. And that changes not only in the systems of the world, it's in the individuals of the world. And so it's incumbent on us to, to be that change  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and you can't get there by hate. You just can't so beyond misanthropy check it out.  Yucca: And our next one is, be my favorite episode. To date, which is decomposition and you,  Mark: Oh, yes.  Yucca: yeah. So this was October 11th. And this one, this was looking at this is kind of our getting into our death episode. We did last year, we did a death episode, which I think would be. I would have loved to put on this list, but we were only doing it for this year. But we talked about the, the role of decomposition both on a metaphoric level, but also on a really literal level. And what does that, what is it in our world? Because that's fundamental to reality to nature. Mark: Yeah. I I particularly love this episode because it, it goes straight at. A topic that even within the pagan community gets avoided a lot. Because a lot of the pagan community believes in reincarnation. And so there's this death and rebirth thing and the end is not explained, right? It's like there's death And rebirth, and then you're there again. And you know, there you are being a happy, jolly creature again. And You know, in our science-based orientation, we don't see any evidence for that sort of an afterlife. And so really diving into, you know, here's what happens and here's why it's so important. And here's what happens to the component parts of us after we are disassembled. And then we become reassembled into other things and. Yucca: And so there is birth in there. It's just not ours.  Mark: Right. It's just  Yucca: our birth is coming from the death of others, but the, that self isn't continuing. Mark: Right. And that's the other important point that gets made in that episode, I think is that we live by dent of the death of other creatures. It's just, it's inevitable. It happens inside our bodies as well as outside of our bodies or, you know, right at the threshold of our bodies with our mouths.  Yucca: I mean, that's what you look outside. You look at the soil, you look at the trees, everything around, remember 4 billion years ago. That was all. That was all love. It just drying. Right.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: But what we see, the life that we see is. Trillions upon trillions of individual deaths. So. Mark: And that's not a sad thing. It's a wonderful thing. It's a wonderful thing that those deaths happened so that more life could continue. And that that reframing of our understanding of mortality, I think, is so important. The pagan community does a pretty good job. I think of, you know, accepting mortality, but it still kind of hedges its bets a lot with this reincarnation or afterlife or summer land or Valhalla or whatever it is. And for those of us in the science based realm, Really confronting the fact that this life is this amazing miraculous improbable gift and it starts, and then it ends. And if that's okay and it's part of a beautiful process that unfolds so really encourage you to listen to that episode, that when Yucca: It's a lot of fun. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. What do we have next?  Yucca: Well the other one and of course, Right. We had almost 50 episodes this, this year, but the most recent, well, one of the most recent was our episode on pagan families from earlier this month on the sixth. So December six. And so we had little lift and John join us and we got to talk about a lot of, a lot of great stuff in there. Mark: We did. And and it was, it was fun for me to be in kind of a different role since I don't have kids to be more of the interlocutor and ask the questions. And then have the three of you answer them. Lilith had to leave early because her daughter hit a deer. And needed help. So we we should. have her back on at some point to talk more about this stuff.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, because I know that she has, you know, very different ways of approaching things than John does and, you know, we want that diverse voice. But yeah, you know, for, for a lot of us who are raising families in these traditions and working to create the traditions as they go along, you know, it's not the same thing. Doing, you know, even secular Christmas is kind of handed to you as a package and you know, what all the elements are and what you're expected to do. We are, we are creating a cycle of observances and holidays with deep personal meaning for ourselves and our families. And we're doing that largely from scratch. And so hearing from other pig and families about how they do that, I think, you know, it was really helpful.  Yucca: Yeah, and it was just fun to have fun to have that group and just get some different voices there and yeah.  Mark: yeah. I I'm always struck You know, we've had several interviews over the course of the past couple of years, and I'm always struck by the enthusiasm. You know, people are, they're excited to be there and talk about their thing and what they're doing. I'm I'm, you know, when we had Daniel strain come on and talk about contemplated traditions, he was all pumped to talk about contemplate of traditions.  Yucca: And we had said no Wu, and that was just fantastic. She was wonderful. Yeah. Mark: Yep. And we have a list of some other folks that we'd like to invite, to do interviews on the podcast in the coming years. So, you know, look forward to more of that happening. Yucca: And while we're on that topic, one of the things that we are looking for which you listeners might know somebody, or might be someone who'd be interested. So mark and I are both from the Northern hemisphere and we don't have any experience with a Southern hemisphere or with a tropical perspective. On the wheel of the year. And so we'd be really interested in bringing someone on who that is, their framework. Mark: Yeah. absolutely. So, I'm especially fascinated to think about what you would do in the way of a wheel of the year for the tropics, because the C w they just don't have four seasons. It's not, that's just not how the world works there. So. Yeah. If you have suggestions of someone that we can interview or you know, please drop us a line@thewonderpodcastcuesatgmail.com. The wonder podcast, all one word Q s@gmail.com.  Yucca: And of course, any other suggestions for the coming year, things that you would like to hear, things that you'd like to hear more of that we've talked about already. Please let us know. We really love hearing from you. Mark: Yeah. We've had some lovely messages lately that have just really been just thoughtful and warm and just so nice. And people have questions or requests for particular kinds of subject matter, but they're also just, they're just really nice about appreciating the podcast and, you know, getting value out of this. So. That helps to keep us going that in the, you know, exorbitant paychecks that Yucca: No, it's all, as he fell, if you know, this is, we don't,  Mark: it's all  Yucca: we don't make any money from this. In fact, we pay money to host and do all that stuff. So,  Mark: right. yeah,  Yucca: yeah, but it's worth it. That's very much so, well that was our five, but mark, you were mentioning when we were talking about the families, how. A lot of us as pagans and as pagan families, we're making this up as we go, right. And we're forming these new traditions and kind of dreaming and an acting how we want things to be. And I think that's a great place to jump into the second half, which is the looking forward part because we are on the cusp of a new calendar. And we've talked about before, how people look at the calendar in many different ways. For some people, the calendar, the new year starts at, and, and for some people at the solstice and some people do, you know, just the change of the calendar year or spring as being the beginning. But right now we are where the calendar year is switching. And this is a time period where a lot of people independent of religion are looking at, okay, there's this new year. What, you know, what did I do this past year and what do I want to do in the future and how, you know, how, how am I going to be different this year? How are things going to be different? Mark: Right. Right. And so that brings us to the topic of new year's resolutions and, and, you know, goal setting and, and all, all that kind of stuff. And of course, Both of those goals, setting in new year's resolutions are very sort of Protestant, Calvinist kinds of approaches to this sort of thing. Right. I mean, what's, what's always bothered me about new year's resolutions is that they're like they're like, You know, a crystal glass or something. What if it gets, if it breaks, then it's gone. And so you're done. Okay. I'm going to go to the gym every week. Well, you go to the gym every week for three weeks, but you miss week four, then it's like, oh, well, forget it. I, I failed in my resolution. So what I like to do is to set themes for the coming year. And some intentions, but the intentions aren't an intention is something that you can fail at and then try out again. Right. So it's less self-critical and it's less kind of task mastery. It's more like this is something I'm going to do for myself. And, you know, if I have a miserable cold in week four and I don't go to the gym, well, that's fine. Then go, go next week. Yucca: Yeah, and the framing would be different perhaps, right? Instead of I'm going to go to the gym once a week, every week of the year, it might be I'm going to prioritize my health. Right. And then how, you know, I'm going to this year, my theme is going to be prioritizing me and my health and how do I work towards. Right. And so that staying home and staying in bed, when you have a cold, if that's, that could be woven into that theme. Mark: Right. I mean, the, the whole, the whole element of self-improvement, rather than becoming this sort of miserable set of tasks that you have to complete becomes an exploration of how you can best take care of yourself. And I mean, this is particularly important. I think for people who have the, the, the sort of non Western culture, idealized body shapes, because you may not need or want to lose any weight. There may not be any reason for you to lose any weight because you're, you know, you're shaped the way you're shaped, but you can still do. Yucca: not necessarily,  Mark: An indicator of health.  Yucca: yeah, it, it can be a symptom of some things, but it isn't itself. You can't look at just the weight and talk about health from that.  Mark: Right. So having, Yucca: picture. Mark: so having the intention of, of improving your health. I mean, it might have something to do with weight, but it might very well not. Whereas many of these new year's resolutions are like, well, I'm going to lose 15 pounds and that's not, that's not really caring for yourself in the kind of way that, that really having more of a, a high level goal for what you're seeking to achieve. The other important thing that I want to say about that is that It's really important not to try to set a theme or an intention, which is heavily dependent on stuff. You have no control over. Which I failed that last year. I, last year I set a FIM for myself, a prosperity and at the beginning of the year, things looked pretty good. I had a well-paying job and things looked. And then in the space of a month, we were told that we had to move, which consumed all our savings. Our cat died and our and then I lost my job. Boom, boom, boom. And you know, none of those were things that I had any control over. They happened. For reasons that were, that were beyond my purview. So, this year I want to be more judicious about the theme that I set I've I haven't really thought about it yet, but I'm going to do that. And I really encourage you to take on. Which you can control in the context that we're in. We know we're going to be dealing with COVID for at least the first half of 2022. So maybe, you know, setting a goal of having a house party once a month with 40 of your closest friends is not the thing to do  Yucca: Right. But even think about how, what you can control is how you respond to things. Right. So how are you going to respond to. Whatever the particular theme is that you have you know, what are the, what might your ritual life or paying more attention or things like that, that, that those are things that even if your life gets totally turned upside, And who knows what, what this next year is going to bring that what you do have control over. And I'm thinking about this as we were mentioning Daniel earlier, thinking about, you know, taking a page from the Stoics, right? Thinking about what do, what can you control? And it isn't, what's going on with world politics or whether there's a fire or a S or a hurricane or a drought, or whether you'll have a job. Or frankly, whether you'll be healthy or not, you know, there are steps you can take, but ultimately there are things that you can control and things you can't. And, and if you base your idea of success and your self-worth and happiness and those things you can't control, then you're setting yourself up for failure, no matter how good the year is. Right. Mark: right. And, and remember, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll insert this at this point. Remember the whole point of what we do as science-based pagans is. to be happier and more effective people and to help the world be a better place. Right. It's it's very simple. So. You know, if, if setting yourself up for that failure is not going to contribute to your sense of, of efficacy and your, your happiness, then it's time to rethink that, you know, because that's, that's what we're working to build.  Yucca: Yeah. Another thing that this has been a theme that I've noticed for quite a few years 2016 was a pretty rough year for a lot of people. 2017 was a rough year, you know, on and on. And it's, it's very popular and I suppose it might be a little cathartic, but it's very popular to be very negative about the year that happened and very, very pessimistic about the next year. Right. And be like, oh, well, you know, 2022. It's just going to be a repeat. No, everything's going to get worse. And and I, I would caution away from that because I think that, that the way that we frame things affects how, how we experienced them and not that hard things aren't going to happen. A bunch of terrible stuff's going to happen. Right. But a bunch of, of wonderful things going to happen as well. And, and which thing we're looking at and how we're focusing on what we're looking at is going to change how we feel about it and perceive it. And I think that we also have a little bit of responsibility in the way that we talk about things, to how it frames the story and the experience for other people around them. As someone who works with, with children and the youth a lot, I noticed that it's rough for them because the adults around them are all talking about how terrible this world is and how there's nothing left for them. And there's never going to be anything. Right. And, and that's, that's really, that's, that's a choice that we're making of what we're giving you. So this is an opportunity to go, okay, I don't have control over. What's going to happen, but I'm going to choose to look at the positive. I'm going to choose to look at the beautiful and whatever I perceive as being beautiful and, and support that in my language and into my attitude. Mark: That's very well said. Yes. I mean, we're not encouraging people to be Pollyannish.  Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: we, we do need to look. We have to look at the world and, you know, be aware of everything, but that's not the same thing as letting yourself fall into bitterness because that that's a really profound kind of personal defeat. It's very, very. hard to have a happy and fulfilling life if you're fundamentally bitter about the nature of life. Right.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: There's a lot changing in the world and there's, there's a lot of wrong. That's been done. But that doesn't mean that we can't be exponents for something better and also find the joy and the sunsets and the sunrises and the first flowers of spring and the Moonrise and the rainbows and all those things. Because those are very real too and ignoring them because the news, the nightly news was, was disturbing, is not a formula. For living well.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we really invite you to sit down and think a little bit about, you know, what, what did you learn out of 2021? And What sorts of themes and intentions do you want to set for for 20, 22? And I should say, cause we haven't said it yet. You don't have to, I mean, you can just cruise right into January and you know, not worry about it. But if you want to, if you do mark this calendar transition then it would be a good time to do. Some of that thinking and, and making some decisions for how you'd like to frame the upcoming year.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: And in the meantime, we wish you a very happy new year. Thanks for spending time with us over 2021.  Yucca: and we look forward to 2022 with you.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Thanks so much everyone.  Mark: Thank you. 

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E46 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: The other one, Mark.  Yucca: And this week it's already the solstice. So we're going to be talking about the winter solstice. Yule lots of names for it, but it's that time of year. Mark: Yes, so many celebrations happening and lots of traditions and rituals. And it's one of the in the year where the, the mainstream culture, the overculture actually really goes for some of the stuff that we as pagans are into in the way of rituals and traditions. And. Stuff that doesn't necessarily have a rational explanation, but it feels really good to do so you do it anyway. So we're going to talk about all that stuff. And here we go.  Yucca: Yeah. So first of all, this is a time that cultures all over the world in temperate latitudes have paid attention to it's something that we see in ancient sites. We see it reflected in many different religions and traditions today. It's just been a very important time because. The days have been getting shorter and shorter and shorter, and now it's turning around and it's like the light, like the sun is returning. Mark: I mean, you can imagine that at a time when the technology available was with rocks and Mastodon, ivory, and bones and reindeer horn and you know, stuff like  that,  Yucca: and moss.  Mark: right.  That seeing the power of the sun deplete and the days get shorter and shorter And shorter  Yucca: And lower and lower in the sky. Mark: Right. It would be very alarming. You know, the, the amount of time that you have available to hunt or, or search for food. Is steadily shrinking. And the time that you're exposed to predators that are nocturnal is steadily increasing. Meanwhile, the temperatures are dropping and so you've got to find fuel for fires and you know, this is. This is something that was very much a matter of concern for ancient people. And we know this because even today persist amazing observatories that were built by ancient people both in the Americas and in Europe and in Africa That line up the sun with stone formations on the winter solstice day. Some of the most famous ones are Stonehenge obviously, and then also the new Grange passage burial in Ireland. But there are lots of these these constructions there's one in Chaco canyon in the American Southwest. There's just a lot of them,  Yucca: Yeah. And even as. There were different kinds of cultures even, and perhaps even more for some of the agricultural cultures that are settled in one place. And they've spent all year preparing for this time. Now it's just a really, really important time in which this is what we've been getting ready for  now. And then the next few months of, of what were we working for all year and knowing,Humans We're good at to pick up patterns. Right. We know that that the days will get longer. Again, we know that this is a cyclical thing, but when you're in the moment, it's, it's very, I mean, that's, that's all there is. There's a now, right now and night is long at night is cold and. You know, why wouldn't it be nice to be back in that sun and to be back with the warmth and back with the, the short nights and the long days. And, and that's what this solstice is, is bringing us back towards it's that turn in the year. Mark: That's right. And that's why it's always associated with hope because the, the hope of the longer summer days. Inherent in the kernel of turning corner, the sun's starting to come back in, very, very faint sort of. Indications of that in the first few days after the solstice, but then it becomes more and more clear that the days are getting longer. it will still be very cold and not really possible to do agriculture for a while, at least, you know, that you're headed towards days when it will be possible.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So something else that becomes very traditional at this time becomes eating everything that will spoil before it goes bad.  Yucca: Because  we have a lot of that right now. We've got a lot of winter squashes, even though we didn't grow many ourselves this year, but we've got a bunch that are sitting and I go and I touch the bottoms of the beach day and I go up, oh, we got to use this one up. This one's getting soft and mushy.  Mark: oh.  Yucca: Right. Mark: So, and, and that's very deliberate because piling in a ton of count of calories when you're about to go into the coldest darkest time of the year not I'm sorry, not darkest, but just coldest time of the year is a very sensible survival strategy. You know, people that don't. Have a good read on the food cycles of where they are living. Don't do well over winters. They really don't. Half of I was talking, I, I guess when we were around American Thanksgiving and. This is a particularly significant year because it's the 400 years since the supposed first Thanksgiving with the, the colonists in Massachusetts and I'm descended from several of those. People who were there at that first event. the reason that they had those celebrations people don't generally talk about very much. The reason they had those celebrations was because before of them had died,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: get through the winter because they didn't understand the landscape and they didn't understand how to plant to plant, how to live in that new environment we can see that the winter solstice becomes a really important marking point for the time of year people that are, you know, as we all do out of the soil.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Oh,  Yucca: And it's interesting today as we are in. On a societal level where this interesting place where we try and pretend like we're not part of everything else. We're not part of this world. Right. We've got our, our artificial lights and you know, who cares? The sun has gone down or rather we've turned away from the sun at this point, because while we just flip on a light switch, right, we've got the light here, we've got our refrigerators and all of our, you know, grocery stores that we go to. We have been seeing over the past year that, you know, maybe that pulse system is not quite as stable as we might like to think that it is. But there's something that it seems like we're still really drawn back to anyways, even while we're trying to pretend that we're not part of nature, that we're not part of this. And, and I think that pagans do that a lot less, but just talking about, you know, the overculture even the overculture it seems is just drawn to this particular time. Mark: And to the very traditional of light, right? is the darkest time of the year. And so some of the oldest traditions have to do with putting a candle in the window, putting candles in trees, which is dangerous as hell, but people do it.  They would bring a tree into their house and then they would put candles in  Yucca: Yes. And often your house would be made from what as well. Mark: Ymade from wood as well. Must have been really symbolically important to them because otherwise, why would they take that risk?  And we do that the same with, you know, Christmas lights now and you know, there to me, there's this sort of beautiful defiance. About those light displays at this time of year, that's just saying we will not have it dark. We will not. We, we, we defy the darkness with the light that we can create and we will make it beautiful. And will cruise by our house and go, wow, look at that. It's so pretty. And. I just, I think that's a lovely thing. I think it's and it's, and it's a very primordial thing. It's it, it, I think it strikes a chord really deep in our human psyche.  Yucca: Hmm. So let's start talking more about the. Our interpretations, right? We've been looking at kind of this broad scale of humans and over time, but within our own practices, within our own, you know, pagan practices and our own wheel of year for you, mark, what is, what is the winter solstice? How does that fit into your, your interpretation of the wheel? Mark: Okay, that's great. there, there are basically two sort of. Metaphorical plans that I overlay onto the calendar year. And the first is the agricultural cycle, which is a very pagan thing to do. You know, you've got your planting in the spring and you've got your maintenance in the summer and your harvest in the fall. And what that does is it makes. The, the returning of the sun at the solstice. The, the moment of the beginning of a new cycle. So everything is fallow. Everything is dormant. And now is the time when we start when we just hunker down, we're not worrying about food production right now because all the food production has been done. And so now we're just trying to keep ourselves alive until we can start food production. again. And that will be in the spring when birds are laying and so there eggs and there's some, you know, early herbs that we can eat and hunting is possible. You know, one of the things about about short er days is that Is that you don't have very long to go hunting. Hunting is not a or gathering either. You know, those are not sort of quick processes. You, it takes a long time to go out and accumulate food. And if you don't have that, that time, then you're not really able to do much. And in some cases, the game that you might've been hunting is migrated away and the herbs are in the ground. Cause they're not coming up yet. So, so this is the time when you just hunker down and you hang out with your friends and loved ones and just get through it. And this sort of kickoff of all of that is eating everything. That's going to go bad and loading up on calories as best you can. So as much in the way of sugar as you  can tolerate or get your hands on and celebrating. The fact that you love one another and support one another. And that that's how survival works for humans as social animals. And that starts the beginning of the year with this dormant phase, which then moves into planning and then planting. And then. Caring and all that kind of stuff. So that's the agricultural cycle. The other cycle is the cycle of a human life and metaphorically. I see the winter solstice as the equivalent of birth and infancy. you know, it's, it's the time of visioning, you know, before, before something, before you even plan something, before you start to figure out how to implement it and get resources together and all that stuff, you have to have a vision. And so here in the darkness is a really good time to be doing visionary stuff. The dark is often associated with divination and with imagination. And so I see this as really being that kind of a time. How about you? I know that you have a kind of biological  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: on the stations of the year.  Yucca: so certainly the, the first part that you were talking about in terms of the agriculturally what's going on, will we tie into that as well? The birth for me, I don't really associate it with the birth the beginning. And partly that's it has to do with that. That doesn't necessarily match the, the fertility cycle for humans being someone who's kind of been tied into that, you know, I actually associate this time of year more with morning sickness. Right. But this, we look at the wheel of the year. And we'll look at the different holidays and the different seasons as, and relate them to parts of our biosphere and parts of the ecosystem that we're really dependent upon. And this half of the year, we look at the forests and so the other half is the grasslands. If we look at the terrestrial biomes, they're really dominated by two different kinds, which is. The forests and the grasslands, it's mostly the non brittle and the. And so this time we're really honoring the, the forest, especially those, you know, the conifers and the, the forest creatures around that. And also the, the sudden our star, right? This is a really great, it's always around, but this is just like a good reminder of the, you know, as we were talking about two weeks ago with John last week star stuff, right? So this is a wonderful moment to be remembering that. Because when we are, when we're getting less exposure to something, it can help us remember how important it is. What is the the absence or  Mark: oh, absence makes the heart grow fonder.  Yucca: yes. Right. So it's kind of like that with, with the  Mark: I miss heat. Heat  was  Yucca: missed heat, sun and vitamin D. Oh, that makes my body feel so good. Where is it? Right.  So that's, that's really for us looking at and, and honoring that part of the, our biosphere and it works out very well with what's going on awith the overculture and Christmasristmas trees and, and,  it's, and for us we live in a very brown place anyways, but the only things that are green right now really are. We've pinyon pine and Juniper, and that's it. we look out, that's the only green that we see and they have their very unique quality of green anyways, but there is no grasses that are green. There's no little, you know, herbs or any of that. It's just the trees. So yeah.  Mark: yeah. So that that persistent quality of the evergreens is something that obviously was not lost on people going back thousands of years. The, the whole idea of evergreen trees, evergreen boughs plants that bear fruit at this time, like Holly and mistletoe and those kinds of things all end up kind of folded up into this winter solstice holiday. and I like to take as many of those traditions of those kinds of good feeling traditions into my practice as I can. I mean, we have a Yule tree. It's doesn't have an angel or a star on top of it. It's got the sun which is a star of course, but It's, symbolically it's designed differently. Yucca: It's, you're not putting the star of Bethlehem up. You're putting, you're putting the sun.  Mark: Right. Different star.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And. I just find that a lot of what has come to be associated with this time of year is really lovely stuff. It's, it's getting together with people you love and it's exchanging gifts to show that you love them and it's singing and enjoying beautiful music and Of course the feasting and drinking and just having a wonderful time. And we need more of that. Honestly. I  mean, the overculture is really impoverished in terms of its willingness to allow us to enjoy things. And it, it wouldn't hurt us to have one of these every six months, you know,  really wouldn't.  Yucca: we actually do that. We've we've for us in our, in our tradition, our family tradition, we've elevated the summer solstice to a similar level of you know activity. So because yeah, just that sense of, yeah, we need, you know, once a year is not enough. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And what's interesting is that it doesn't, you don't have to go very far back in history to find that there were times when there were a lot more of these, there were the quarter festivals, some every three months, there was a week of not only eating and drinking and visiting with friends and not working and all that kind of stuff, which of course was a great relief to people that were, you know, working as serfs on somebody. Land. But also it was the time when rents were paid and debts were collected and new contracts were entered into, so there was sort of a business aspect of it too. But like in which was right around the the audit autumnal Equinox was another such festival,  Yucca: What was that word? Mark: Mikel, miss. So my St St. Michael.  Yucca: Oh, okay. Mark: Yeah, so, and it was pronounced mikkelmas so yeah, it wasn't so long ago until the Protestant reformation, of course, which promptly banned Christmas and and everything else that was fun because it was pagan and frivolous. And unfortunately, even after the Protestant, reformation was over, we were still stuck with a lot of the damage that they had done. So, Speaking from a pagan perspective, we, we say as long as nobody's getting hurt, more fun as good.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And this is one of the one time of the year when people are really allowed to have fun.  Yucca: Yeah. So we, you mentioned, you know, you really enjoy bringing in as many of those. Are there any particular traditions that you have. unique to your particular household or ritual group or something that you haven't seen done  very often, even within the larger pagan community. Mark: No, I wouldn't say that what we do is all that original. What we do is we gather at one of our circle brother and sister's house. And after dark, we, we turn all the lights off in the house and we go outside and we hold our ritual and we sing songs around Around a cauldron, the sand in the bottom and a single little burning candle there until it gets really dark and cold. And then when it's time and we're ready, we all take tapers and light them from that one little spark and then go  into the house. And there are candles set everywhere throughout the house, in every room. And so we go through and we light the candles and fill the house with light  for the bringing back. And it's a simple ritual, but it's very beautiful. And it's, it's something I really look forward to every year. I'm doing that this afternoon.  Yucca: oh, wonderful. Yeah. So we're recording Saturday right  Mark: Saturday the 18th.  Yucca: yeah. Oh, that's lovely. That's coming up.  Mark: it is. Yes.  So. how about you? Are there particular things you do this time of year?  Yucca: Well, we do We do have a Mari Lwyd that we have in our house. And that we've done a sort of modified version. And, and some of you might've heard of this as the Welsh Christmas horse, but it, it is a very old tradition and probably has several different origins, but it was where. In the villages and there's been a resurgence this in, in recent years, but. They would dress up a horses skull and they calling her gray, Mary, and someone would dress up as her with this horse skull and beautiful laces and really quite, quite a thing. And. Then they'd go from house to house and basically have a poetry battle with the owner of the house. And if you weren't, if you weren't able to defeat the Mari Lwyd they come into your house and they drink all your booze and make up. Big ruckus and then go to the next house. And so it's something that is very, very old and there's lots of ideas of where it might've come from, but it's also something connected right now with kind of the, the Welsh pride and all of that. And we live in the states where we're probably, you know, one of maybe only a few hundred families in the whole country that actually speaks to in use as Welsh. So we don't really have anyone to go knock down the doors of. Go into their house with a horses skull. So we just, we set one up each year. And I do not have a horse skull but I do have a deer skull and one day I will get a horse skull but for now we, we decorate up our deer skull and have that up and it's it has a delightful. Little spookyness added to the to the fuel Christmasy time. And it's just, it's also a symbol of poetry and, and just that connection with our, with our heritage. And that's something that I haven't really seen anyone else do, but it's just a moment for us to connect with that part of our past. Mark: That's wonderful. It reminds me very much of what the local Morris dancing team does here. We have a team, the AppleTree Morris, who are, are local to where I live and Morris dancing of course is a very, very old tradition from the Cotswolds in England. And it was probably practiced in a lot of other places as well, but it kind of died out. And so it's these traditional English tunes and and dances. But one of the oldest and most traditional dances is the Abbott's Bromley horn dance in the village of Abbott's Bromley. They bring out these old giant reindeer horns. And they do this dance where the horns clack with one another, which is of course what male reindeer are doing right about now. And those horn sets have been carbon dated at more than a thousand years old. So those dances have been going on for a long time. I mean, it's been a while since there've been reindeer in England.  Yucca: Yeah, I was going to ask about those reindeer you sure? But wow. Mark: So there is a similar tradition that our morris team does, which is they hold a wassail in the, usually the first weekend in January. And the way the wassail sale works is it's prearranged with members of the team and other friends and fellows. You go to a house. They dance a couple of Morris dances in front, they sing the wassailing song and then they run into the house, eat and drink everything that isn't nailed down and then all pile into cars and go to the next house where they do it all. Again,  Yucca: Good. Mark: this takes all day and ends up at a very lovely party at the end where they serve traditional English wassail and. It's just, it's a really fun, lovely thing to do. and feels like a very old tradition.  Yucca: Beautiful. Yeah, it sounds like there's probably some connections between those.  Mark: Yeah. I think so there, you know, I've actually started a blog posts that I haven't completed yet about what I call mendicant traditions, which are the sort of beggarly pagan traditions also Ling and Going house to house for soul cakes in around Halloween and the Mary Lloyd. I mean, there's, there's a lot of these sort of begging traditions and tons of waffling songs for exactly that purpose. You know, God bless the master of this house in the mistress. Also. Meanwhile, give us some food and money and beer.  Yucca: Oh, yes. Mark: so I think that's a very interesting thing and and a very, very old tradition and I like to see it propagated and, and continued. I love those old things.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So as your kids get older, you could theoretically do something similar. If you made arrangements with friends where I, and probably not under COVID. I mean, this is,  Yucca: Yes, this is but we're hoping as they get older, that will be less and less of an issue.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: fingers crossed that their entire childhood been during COVID, which has been  Mark: Yeah. That's that's  Yucca: So, but they think it's normal. They think masks are totally normal, but yeah, as, as they get older, I think, I mean, we've already done. We do a lot of, of memorizing, which is something I didn't do as a child, but as an adult, I really love to be able to memorize things in that. Their father is into theater and, and all of that. So he's really that, but doing poems and, and memorizing literature and things like that is just a I kind of having your, your poem offs,  right?  Yeah. Mark: Yeah. The way I, the way that I've heard that Mary Lloyd described is you you take a highly decorated horses, skull from door to door and have rap battles.  Yucca: That's yes. And extra points if you can do it in Welsh. So  Mark: I see.  Yucca: yes, there is some English, but it's, it's tolerated, but, but if you can do in Welsh, then, then you know, that's like automatically you get an extra five points there.  Mark: Got it.  Yucca: Right. And then of course we do presence as well. That kids are very into that for the adults. We don't really bother that much. If we see something that someone wants that we think they'd like, then we get it for them. Whenever that is right. Oh, go. You'd like this book. Well, I'm going to get it for you now, even though it's October,  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: but for kids, it's fun. Mark: Yeah, I, I feel strongly about that. And I'm glad that you brought it up because I know that there are some people who are like, well, no, this present thing, it's all commercialism and it's terribly capitalistic and destructive and we're not going to do it. And I agree with all of those reasons. But it's cruel when you have little children who aren't going to understand that they see all of their peers getting presents and they don't,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: it's just cruel and you don't have to go overboard with it, but it, in the, in the name of being kind and compassionate and, you know, not screwing up your kids any more than they necessarily need to be. I think it's better. That we incorporate presence. We don't have children as the listeners know and so we don't do presence either, but we still do a tree and we put things underneath it that make us feel wealthy, make us feel blessed  by  Yucca: a lovely idea.  Mark: of our life.  Yucca: That's beautiful. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. We really, we enjoy. Right now there's a tin of labor Kuiken under there among other things because Nemiah made traditional German Christmas cookies,  ginger cookies. And they're so good.  Yucca: Yeah, there are so many sweets this time of year that, oh goodness. That maybe it is good that we only do this part one time of year,  Mark: yeah, maybe. so  maybe  the summer solstice needs to be safe.  Yucca: That's an interesting, yeah, we've done. So we'll do we brought presence into the summer associates as well, so that it's kind of a, like, our goal has been to. To bring that fun part, but deemphasize that as it's not the only time of year that kids get presence,  right? So they get presents on their birthdays. They get presents on Christmas, but it's not like there's not going to be, you know, 20 presents or something like that. Although Christmas, we do have to deal with. You know, grandmothers and whatnot, but    but you know, coming from the parents, it's like, okay, there's about, there's two gifts per kid. Plus, you know, a couple of shared gifts between the kids. And then we do that during summer solstice and then we'll come back around in six months. We'll talk more about it, but we do decorations around the house and have it be a very kind of big deal as well. So, but it's got a very different feel. It's like, the, to the times of year, just so in six months, it'll just feel so different to be outside, to be in the house. It just feels different. Mark: Sure. Well, and you're in the Southwest too. So, I mean maybe the flavor scheme for the summer solstice could be more like she lays and, you know, savory salty things and.  Yucca: Although that really is our, is that is really our fault because when yeah. Oh, that that's what starts fall when you smell the green chili, roasting is  oh, right. And you drive by on the evening drive by on the road and people are out in front of the grocery stores and roasting it out. It's just, that is fall. Oh, it's wonderful. But by summer solstice is when we're. That's the zucchini season. That's when the zucchinis are finally like here we are. So we do lots of honey around that time because we can celebrate the, you know, the arthropods and things like that. And as a family, we spend a lot of time outdoors, but this particular coming back to December, this is even though it's very chilly, this is just an amazing. Night time of year there's meteor showers going on. And this year, right now, there's a really a special thing happening, which is the common Leonard. And so that's one that is not quite visible at the, by the human eye. It might be coming the next few days. We're not really sure. It probably is just outside of visibility. So if you've got some binoculars, even like bird watching binoculars or basic telescope, it's really, really easy to find right now because it's right after sunset, wherever you live. If you look towards sunset there's Venus, that's lovely. There's Venus, Saturn, and Jupiter all lined up  Mark: Oh, in  Yucca: beautiful little blind, right. And actually by the end of the month, we're going to get mercury as well and the evening sky, right in that nice lineup. But you look to Venus and then look right below it with your telescope and you'll see this gorgeous. And we've actually seen it the last couple of nights. It's beautiful. Green streak, which is a comment that is coming in. It's about a kilometer across its nucleus. It's a decent sized CLA comment. That's just going to wrap around the sun and then off it'll go.  So anyways, that's happening. And then you can be out in the gym and it's, although the peak has passed for them. They're still going for the rest of the month and the earth SIDS. So look the little dipper. So that's pretty easy to find because that's the north stars in Ursa minor, and there's a meteor shower that's happening right now. So pretty much, anytime you go out. You've got a good chance of seeing something beautiful in the night sky,  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: something a little bit less than usual. There's always beautiful things, but  Mark: Right, Yucca: yeah.  Mark: yeah. And then of course, here on earth, in terms of space stuff, the James Webb telescope is about to go up.  Yucca: Yes. Mark: And it's finally going to go, and that is really pretty exciting because it should be, it should give us the ability to look back to the very origins of the universe,  the earliest stars,  Yucca: The earliest light. Yeah. Mark: and that will, that will really be something  that will really expand our understanding of the nature of the unit.  Yucca: yeah. It's it's it's a much, much larger telescope than home. So in feet it's just about 21 foot primary mirror, but it looks an infrared. So we're looking really, really far back that allows us to look at cooler objects like planets. So we want to look at exoplanets planets around other stars. They're going to be giving off infrared their way easier to see an infrared than trying to look in the glare of visible light, but also those early stars as the universe has been expanding, light gets stretched out. So it's being stretched. The farther part of wavelength is the redder and redder gets well. It's been, the universe has been stretching for almost 14 billion years, so it's stretched out of visible light into infrared. And we just can't see that with any of our other  telescopes. So we had Switzer for a while, but that was a very comparatively, very small that wasn't even a meter primary mirror. So this one is going to be. We're looking at a huge, huge mirror, the most complex telescope ever, ever built and hopefully launched. So that's supposed to launch on the 24th and it's scheduled for 7:20 AM Eastern. So that's a little bit early for those of us in the time zones over.  Yes. I'm setting my alarm though, to, to watch. 'cause it's been a long time coming and then we'll have to wait about six months before we start getting information back. But it's, it could be, it really could be opening a totally new chapter and astronomy, really. If there's, if everything works as planned, then it can  literally change our understanding of the universe. And we just don't even know yet. So we get to spend a whole hour talking about James Webb, if you want. This is yeah.  Mark: But let's not  Yucca: Okay, I'll talk your ear off. After we, we hit the stop button. Mark: Okay. The solstice is this amazing magic time. And it's been known to be an amazing magic time for a very long time. So it's easy for us to, especially because the over culture does the same thing. It's easy for us to sort of suspend all of our quotidian ordinary. Stuff. And to go into this kind of amazing holiday mode where, you know, you wear ugly sweaters and enjoy, you know, drink at times when you wouldn't ordinarily drink and  Yucca: Eat sugar cookies,  even when you don't normally eat cookies at all. Yeah. Mark: Right. And go out of your way to let people that you love know that you love them. So it's, it's a,  it's a really special time and we hope that in your celebrations and rituals and gatherings and all that, that you have a very wonderful yule and winter solstice.   

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In this sermon, pastor Dylan Dodson preaches on Mark 5:1-20.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com Suntree Retreat: https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/news-and-events/suntree-retreat-2022/ ----more---- S2E34 TRANSCRIPT and Recipe: Reconstituted Yule Metheglin Recipe Ingredients Montrachet yeast (1 packet) Yeast nutrient, 1 oz. 12 lbs. high-quality honey (thyme, thistle, or wildflower honeys are nice for this recipe) Zest of four large or eight small oranges 5 cinnamon sticks, broken into pieces 12 cloves, broken 10 large slices fresh ginger, bruised with a hammer to release flavor 5 gallons water   Equipment Large cooking kettle Candy thermometer Jar Muslin Rubber band Food-grade five-gallon fermenting bucket Brewing airlock Glass carboy, 5 gallon Champagne bottles Caps and capping press Method Start the yeast 2 days ahead. Take a sterilized jar and add a tablespoon of honey. Pour on a ¼ pint to ½ pint of boiling water and stir to mix. When cooled to 20°C or below, add the yeast and yeast nutrient. Keep covered but not airtight, a muslin cover affixed with a rubber band or string is ideal. Put the spices, zest and ginger into a large cooking kettle. Add about 2 gallons of water. Bring to a boil and simmer for 20 minutes, covered. Put all but 2/3 cup of the honey into a food-grade fermenting bucket and strain the herb liquid through muslin cloth onto it whilst still hot. Stir the honey until dissolved. Top up with water to four gallons total. Allow to cool to 20°C and then add the prepared yeast starter A fierce fermentation should begin quickly. After a few days to a week the rate will have slowed and the must can be poured into a carboy and topped up to five gallons with cooled boiled water prior to fitting the air-lock. Keep in a warm place until fermentation stops. Move the carboy into a cool place and when ready to bottle, stir in 2/3 cup additional honey. Rack off into champagne bottles, and cap.   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark.  Yucca:  And I'm Yucca.  Mark: And it has rolled around to this time of year. Once again, we are at the autumnal Equinox.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Which is sometimes called Mabon, although there's great debate. And in some cases scorn about that term. And I prefer to call harvest. Yucca: Mm. So it's for me, at least it's amazing that here we are all around. It's this year has flown by, but also just seasonally what's happening doesn't quite feel like we're there yet. It's still, the summer has just been really, really dragging. We're still having our hot days. The nights are, you know, you need sweaters and whatnot, but there's that chills just not there yet. And we wonderfully, still got some rains recently. I just haven't quite turned that corner. Although I suspect in the next few weeks, it'll be like the snap of a finger and it'll all of a sudden it'll be autumn, but it just really isn't here yet.  Mark: You know, here in California, where I am coastal Northern California we're in really kind of a Mediterranean climate cycle. And. I agree with you this year, that the things that I look forward to kind of signal the change into autumn are still not really happening. There's a particular kind of hard blue that the sky becomes because the angle of the light is different. And I know the angle of the light is still different, but I'm not seeing that blue. And it may be because of smoke in the air or something else, but could be, yeah, could be. Moisture as well. But I'm just, I'm not seeing the signals. People's gardens are still pouring out tons and tons of vegetables. And although the nights are coming sooner, it's still feels as though summer really has kind of got its talons in and it's holding on. Yucca: Yeah. So of course it's, it's going to be different everywhere, but that's interesting that that's happening and in both of our climates,  Mark: Right because they are so very different.  Yucca: they are Yeah. so it's always fun to see where we line up and where we're very different. Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Tom.  Mark: So let's talk about this holiday that has a controversial name and all that good kind of stuff. Yucca: Luckily it is one. We can just simply call the Equinox, right. So the in-between ones are a little bit trickier, but this one is easy. We can say it's the Equinox. And everybody knows what we're talking about. And of course mentioning that the two hemispheres are different. So for those of us in the Northern hemisphere, we're moving into the dark part of the year. And those in the Southern hemisphere are moving out of it Right. Going into their spring. Or of course, anyone in there. The tropical areas is having their wet and rainy, rainy, and dry cycle instead of the temperate four seasons. Mark: Right. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah, so it's getting to be time to celebrate again. And before we started recording, we talked about whether to save this episode for next week with when this episode would be released on the Equinox. But it seems like it's a better idea to talk about the Equinox this week, so that if there are any ideas that you have for how to celebrate you can plan for those and, and be ready for it coming up next month. Yucca: It's kind of get  Mark: Monday. Yeah, Monday is the is the actual Equinox and that may not be true worldwide. I think it's Tuesday in Australia and Japan and the far east.  Yucca: To check what the actual time is,  Mark: yeah. Yucca: there abouts usually ranging from the 20th to 22nd. They're around in the month is usually when we have the, the Equinox.  Mark: Right. Right. So, when we talk about celebrating the the solstices and equinoxes and the points between on the wheel of the year we, we talk about what's actually happening, happening. Our natural environment. And we also talk about the metaphorical meanings that these holidays can have for us. So maybe we should start with the first one. Yucca: Do you want to cover that or should I  Mark: why don't you go ahead  Yucca: oh, Okay. Yeah. So  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: we have, we've inherited the, the view of the world or the frame of reference of the world with where we think of earth being. Circled by these other objects. Right. And it makes it a lot of sense. You go outside, you look at the sky and it looks like the sun rises and goes around the earth. It looks like the moon rises. It goes around that case. It does, but it looks like the stars. Right. And so a lot of hours. When we talk about solstices equinoxes, it's based on that former geocentric view. We now know though that we are on a planet, that's orbiting a star, not the star orbiting us. And so sometimes our language is still a little bit confusing about that, but what's happening is. Earth is going around the sun and it's going around the sun on a plane, which we called the ecliptic. And this is confusing because the path that the earth is taking is the ecliptic, but also the apparent path of the sun and the sky is the ecliptic as well. But then we have earth is tilting. It's not straight up and down in that plane. That's our 23 and a half degree tilt, which changes over very, very long time period. Not within the human time period or the individual lifetime. So for us, we can just think, Okay. it's to say that's not changing, but we have basically, you can think of the, the plane coming out from the equator, the equatorial plane, or the celestial equator. And. We have earth going around the sun and then we have that plane and twice a year, those two planes, there's a node where it appears to us that they're crossing over each other. These are both imaginary lines. They're not really there, but that's what the Equinox is, is when the planet is passing through that plane. Now what that ends up doing for the equator is on the equator. It seems like there's equal night and day length. That's not the case for the rest of the world, though. It's pretty close. The closer you are to the equator, but that's where Equinox equal night. That word actually comes in.  Mark: Right. And so as you get farther from the equator, The proportion of day and night shifts. And so you will have a slightly, somewhat longer day than night or a somewhat longer night than day, depending on whether you're in the north or in the south.  Yucca: And if you happen to be at the south pole station, then it's a you have your six months of day, six months of night.  Mark: right. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, that's what's happening in the natural world. That's, that's, what's causing this apparent effect of having these roughly equal days and equal nights and metaphorically speaking, what that often inspires people to think of this holiday as being about, is about balance is about. The, you know, looking at our lives and understanding the need for, you know, the, the proper proportionality of the different things that we are doing in our lives, whether it's our relationship with ourself, our relationship with a partner or partners, our relationship with our family, our relationship with work, our relationship. Friends and with creative endeavors and so forth. I find this a really useful time to take a look at my life and say, well, okay. What am I not putting enough time into right now? That is That's working to my detriment. And because I am unemployed at the moment, the obvious answer this year is I'm not putting enough time into work. Although I'm putting a lot of time into trying to get work. But that said, I've also noticed some other patterns. You know, I, I want to invest a little more time in my relationship now than I have been. I think I've been neglecting that a little bit and so forth. So, that's an exercise that you can do for this time of the year. You know, really kind of try to get the 20,000 foot view of your life and see where's the energy going and ask yourself. Is that really what I want is that, does that feel balanced to me? Yucca: Yeah.  And so, because Equinox has happened twice a year. There's a really nice opportunity to return to that. It's just, it's not just once a year, but it's a Ooh, every half, half year, right. We have the, the fall or the autumn, and then also the spring time for looking at that balance. Although it's a good practice to do it anytime of the year, but it's nice to have a place on the calendar that reminds us to do that.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And another layer of metaphor that I use in thinking about the, the wheel of the year around the, the course of the calendar is mapping the human life span onto that calendar. So for example, well, the spring Equinox becomes a time to focus on the very young on. Toddlers and children that are maybe up to 10 or 11 years old. I'm not preteens that comes a little later or teenagers comes a little later. But yeah, pre-teens and young children time to celebrate them and really kind of do some activities that are really focused on them. This time of year I considered to be about the elders. The, the matriarchs and patriarchs and other arcs, I haven't heard a gender fluid term yet for, for what that would be. But if somebody does, please email us@thewonderpodcastqueuesatgmail.com and let us know, because I I'd like to be using the right terminology. Yucca: And it's just fun to learn new words like that, too.  Mark: Yeah, you  Yucca: we could. If there isn't a word, there should be.  Mark: Right? Right. So you know, those folks who have lived the, the great, the greatest proportion of their lives are coming towards the end of their life. And. One would hope they have learned something. They have gained wisdom in the course of passing through their lives because this is after all a harvest festival. This is a time when in, in the Northern hemisphere anyway. Gardens and so forth are pouring out. Tremendous agriculture is just producing tremendous amounts of food right now. And it's very traditional to have a kind of late September. Harvest feast of some kind celebrating the end of the harvest and there's and there are many ways and traditions of people doing that all over Europe, certainly. And I'm sure here in the Americas as well among indigenous people. So. It's a time to understand the harvest of your life in a way as well too, to celebrate those people who have lived long lives. And our experience who's experienced brings us a harvest of memories and lore and knowledge and wisdom and to celebrate them for that, that they bring to us. Yucca: Hm, that's really beautiful. I love hearing your take and perspective on the holidays and the wheel of fear  Mark: Thank you Jaco. So you have a a different way of, of mapping the wheel of the year. Yucca: We do. Yeah. So instead of mapping the lifetime of an, of an individual human, we look at the wheel of the year, more on a what's happening on an ecosystem scale. Right. So what are the different components of ecosystems? What are the different roles and also the whole biosphere. So not just an individual specific biome, but, but the whole thing. Right. And we then relate that a little bit to, Okay. What's going on in our own environment. So here, although it's running a little bit late this year, this is the time when the shift between. The warm and the cold part of the year is happening even though with the light and the length of days. Yeah. That happened at the solstice. But really it's not until now that that we're going to start leaving summer. And for us summer is the that's. When we have moisture, it's a very dry climate, but that's when the moisture comes. And so if one's to go out and take a walk and look around, that's when you might notice. There are in fact mushrooms that grow here, but they only come up when there is that moisture. They only come up when the temperature is shifting. So we have those cool evenings, the days aren't so blazing and what's happening is that the, the phase of decomposition. Is starting to really get going. That's always happening, but in the temperate regions and whether a year in an arid or a humid temperate region,  Mark: Hmm. Yucca: The decomposition really takes over during the cold part of the year, especially in the forests, in deciduous forests, underneath all of that litter of that organic matter. And underneath the snow and the ice that's when the fungus is working away, breaking down, the soil is alive. The soil is an incredible system and everything. Might look dormant and asleep, but underneath it's active and it's, you know, fun guy are like, some people say that they're all mouth, cause they really are. They're digesting on the outside, eating up, eating up. And it's not just the fun guy, but it's also many other organisms. The bacteria. Of course, not all bacteria, not all, all fungi are decomposers, but many of them are, and there are decomposers who partner with our microbes and fungi, like the termites and other insects that are animals, but really there's this whole other part to nature that we don't notice because they aren't happening on our scale. It's the normal scale. We're weird. We are abnormally giant compared to most life. And what that life is doing is it's breaking things down. It's taking it apart. It's eating and we think of it as death, Right, When something's decomposing, when it's rotting, we go, oh, it's dying and death and all of that, but it's actually feeding its life. It's both at the same time.  Mark: right. Yucca: So this is the time that we really are looking at compost. We're looking at the decomposition and seeing that happening in the natural world, but also thinking about how that can apply to our own life. So I think this connects in a little bit with what you're talking about with the balance, where we can look at our lives and go, what's serving me. What's not, what can I put in the compost? All Right. What is not working that needs to be, take that energy, take that focus and use it as feed to transform into something new. So that's, that's what this whole kind of autumn. Transitioning towards the cold. That's what it really feels like along with, of course. Wow. Look at all the food that's coming in, look at all of the bounty, but what happens to the scraps that zucchini Bush that you have, you're getting loads and loads of the zucchini is that you have no idea what to do with, and you're sick of zucchini, bread and Columbus cheetahs, or whatever else you're making of it. But that plan. Is eventually dying down. And what happens to that? The plant that bore those fruits, it's going to get eaten, consumed. It's going to become part of the soil and on and on that cycle goes,  Mark: Right, right. We would certainly notice it if it didn't because we would be buried in leaves. The, when you consider the sheer volume of, of vegetable detritus, that's consumed by the decomposers every year. It, it allows us to live really because.  Yucca: vegetable, but animal as well, the flesh and Yeah,  Mark: Absolutely. And you know, we consider it kind of normal while you go to a forest and it's got a few leaves on the ground and you walk around and you enjoy it. And then when you go there the next year, Has a similar amount of leaves around there, on the ground? Well, if it wasn't for the decomposers, there might be six feet of leaf accumulated there and you wouldn't be going anywhere in the forest. Yucca: Yeah. Well, we had a really interesting period during earth history where plants figured out this strategy called trees and they started making these compounds, which were much more difficult to break down. And the decomposers at the time. Hadn't figured it out yet. So breaking down those ligaments and things like that, and it took fun guy a while. They've they? They got it eventually, but we have this big period of time where we had this buildup of lots and lots and lots of Woody material, which eventually what caused huge fires. But a lot of it ended up getting buried and that's where our coal today come.  Mark: Hmm. And that's why coal is full of fossils. It's full of leaf fossils and insect fossils, and all kinds of, you know, imprinted remnants from all of that detritus that was then compressed and fossilized into the call that we have today. Yucca: Yeah. So just unimaginable amounts of. Vegetable matter. Right, Just huge. So we call that the Carboniferous because there's so much carbon during that time period. Yeah.  Mark: right. The, when, when you were talking about thinking about your life and what needs, what needs composting? You know, what. What harvest can we take from what we've been doing? And then what do we kind of give up on and fold back into the earth and hope will bring up something else. That's very much like my approach to to the harvest season as well, because, you know, we make plans early in the year. We start new initiatives, at least I do kind of. Annual schedule where during the deep of winter, it's, it's less, it's less a doing time and more of a kind of planning and getting ready to do time. But by the time the Equinox, the autumnal Equinox rolls around. I know pretty well whether a project has succeeded or not. And in some cases, you know, you plant stuff and it just doesn't. It's the nature of cultivating a garden. There, there are things that just fail. They either don't thrive in the conditions that you've given them or the seeds were defunked or something. Yucca: Or you realize that that's not what you want growing there. Mark: Right,  Yucca: Right, And you know, that's, that's great. Mint is delicious, but maybe you don't want it right. there where it's going to take over everything.  Mark: Right. Yucca: Okay. Maybe it's time to pull that up and put it and put it in a pot or just say, sorry, man.  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Maybe a different garden, maybe a different time. But right now this isn't, this isn't what I want to be working on.  Mark: Right. So that's a, that's a place where our approaches kind of overlap in terms of the decomposers. Because I do think about, you know, With the metaphorical harvest of the year, what is it that needs to go onto the compost pile?  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: What is it that didn't work out or that maybe did work out and turned out? Not to be what I wanted. All those kinds of things. So that's, that's another, another exercise that you can do at around this time of year, as you're looking at your life and thinking about, you know, how's the energy balance working there in terms of the energy that you invest in different activities, you can also be thinking about, you know, what what am I. What am I pouring any energy into that is not thriving. And maybe I need to pull the plug or maybe I need to put in even more energy, but you gotta sort of figure it out. If it's not working now, Yucca: Yeah. And, and one thing that you could do is actually physically compost. While making those decisions and there's, you know, there's a million, one different ways to compost that are going to be appropriate in different situations. If you're in a, an apartment you might think of like a little worm bin underneath the kitchen sink, or if you've got more space, you might do a traditional pile in the backyard. Or if you've got lots and lots of land, of course, there's always the trench and trench and, and. Let the existing soil, microbes and worms And all of those get at it. But, but it's the sort of thing that you could be physically doing and having that, that metaphoric meaning as you're doing it. Mark: And then the last thing that I think of when I think of. Holiday is just the straight-up harvest feast.  Yucca: Hm.  Mark: It's a thing that I really liked to do with friends at this time of year. And of course COVID has pulled the plug on all of that recently, although we did, we did have a gathering at our house of a small group of people yesterday, which felt like an early harvest celebration. They were the people who helped us to move. You know, loaning us trucks and helping us pack and helping us move stuff over and all that kind of stuff. And everybody was vaccinated. So we, you know, it was, it was reasonably safe and it just reminded me of how much I really enjoy being around other people and sharing their company and having conversations and all that good kind of stuff. If you're in a place where you. No of people who are your friends and loved ones who are vaccinated  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and, you know, can gather a small group for a harvest feast. It might be really good for your, for yourself at this point, because we've been so isolated for so long. If, if that's something that works for you and you feel comfortable with doing it you know, even, even just a group of like six people for a dinner party can be awfully nice. And it'll give you a chance to get rid of some of that zucchini. Yucca: Yes. And depending on what your climate and what the weather is like this year for you, this can be a really lovely time to still be outside. Right. So have that back porch or park gathering, or, you know, let's go to the national forest or something like that. And, you know, it's still a time that you could do a, kind of a, more of a picnic feel. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: but you know, the, the idea. Of sitting around a table in the backyard, or even a campfire or with friends and a good cider or, you know, just that, that nice atmosphere is, that's one of my favorite things about autumn. I just, that all that kind of cozy,  Mark: right. Yeah. And it's it's, I mean, we know that at least, you know, where we are, we know that the elements are going to get more. In hospitable soon. Right. But there is this sort of last hurrah that happens in September into early October sometimes where you can, you can just really enjoy being outside and Celebrating with, with friends. So I, I really commend that to you. If you can. I know we've been protecting ourselves, protecting our health for so long that people have kind of developed this kind of knee jerk, get away from me, impulse because of COVID. But if you know people who are vaccinated and you know that they're safe, then that can be a great thing to do. Yucca: Yeah. And, you know, I don't know how it is for you, but there's also something about this time of year, which has that kind of excitement and anticipation for being done with the summer, done with the heat done with that part of the year and ready for the like, Ooh, I'm ready for the chill chilly. I'm ready for the sweaters. I'm ready for the, you know, whatever it is. The Halloween. Yes. Halloween. please. The pumpkin's  Mark: The month long Sabbath. Yucca: Yes. Yeah. this, the pumpkins and the cloves and cinnamon and all of that. Just, yeah, we're getting there Mark: Yeah. Yucca: It's going to, Ooh.  Mark: There's another thing that I used to do. And I'm, I'm thinking about doing it again this year, which is that I would brew a , which is a spice to Meade around this time of year, so that it would be ready in bottles to give us gifts that you'll.  Yucca: Mm.  Mark: And I think, you know, we can probably put this recipe in the. Yucca: Yeah, we could  Mark: In the notes. Yeah. In the show notes, it's really, it's not very difficult. The most important thing to recognize about it is first of all, sanitize everything, because that's how you, you know, you don't get weird bacterial infections in your in your liquid and you must use champagne bottles. This, this is sparkling need. It is high pressure. The bottles will explode if they're not champagne bottles and it'll make a big sticky mess and it can hurt people if they're around when the bottle goes up.  Yucca: I can,  Mark: please use champagne bottles. Yucca: I'm laughing right now because do you know what a Winogradsky column is?  Mark: No. Yucca: So, really beautiful, but if you live anywhere near a salt marsh or something like that, there are these bacteria. A lot of them are actually Kia that, that live in these different kinds of mud and all kinds of. Environments. That would be very difficult for us as large aerobic creatures, but you can get the mud and put them into jars and they, and, you know, maybe give them some hard-boiled eggs or some, you know, their sulfur eaters and that sort of thing. So, over time, these, these columns or these jars develop these unbelievably beautiful colors because you're looking at. These colonies of microbes? Well, I have several of those and we also moved recently and someone helping us move, tightened the lids onto some of my  Mark: Oh, no. Yucca: And luckily it, this only happened to one of them, but. They are of course releasing carbon dioxide. And when you have that inside of a glass bottle and we heard from the other room and. Mud and sticky bacterial colonies all over the walls and the, you know, and it was just like, oh, good thing. Nobody was there because that was shards of glass. And that's the same thing which is going to happen with with your, when you're brewing. Right.  Mark: right, right. Yeah. I had a direct experience of this once. I used to do two batches of Mead every year. I would do this spice champagne. that we're going to provide the recipe for. And then I did a straight, dry Mead that would come out around Mayday or bell team. And I was at a belting celebration weekend and I brought this need out to donate that I had put it in 22 ounce beer bottles because it was supposed to be a dry need. It apparently got a little fuzzy. Apparently there was enough sugar to do a secondary fermentation in the bottle. And one woman grabbed a bottle of this and started to run up a hill with it, to her campsite. And it exploded in her hand.  Yucca: Oh, wow. Was she okay?  Mark: She got some cuts, but nothing very serious, but it was really a reminder to me that you just don't want to take a chance with this. Even, even if what you're doing is supposedly going to turn out still, rather than sparkling, it's just so much safer to use champagne bottles. Yucca: Okay. Now I should say we're, we're talking about. The dangerous part of it. But for people who are interested in getting started, the means insiders are. really great places to start. They're much. They're very simple in comparison to beer, right? You really, a lot of times it's well clean all your equipment and put your ingredients, but the Easton, you know, you've got your special lid on it and that's and wait. Right.  Mark: Yeah, pretty much. So, I mean, and the equipment that you need is not all that much. This, as I said, is a spice needs, so it has, you know, orange zest and ginger slices and cloves and cinnamon sticks and things like that. And it  Yucca: give us the recipe, but do you put those in later on or do you  Mark: No, I start,  Yucca: with them? Okay.  Mark: well at first I do a yeast starter just to, you know, get the yeast population up so that when I pitch it's it's really raring to go. But other than that, what I do is I simmer all of those ingredients with a little bit of honey in the bottom of a big. Like a four gallon or three gallon kettle. And then I taught that all with the remainder of the honey and water, and then stir that all up and then rack it over into a five gallon carboy and top it off with water so that it comes up to five gallons. So this is this is a a recipe for five gallons of need. Which is enough to keep you for awhile. Yucca: That's a lot. Yeah.  Mark: it is it's enough to, you know, give away his presence and have some for yourself. And it's, it's, it's  Yucca: It depends on how many adults are in your household, right? Yeah. But That's still five gallons is a lot. Mark: That's a lot. It is. It's a lot. And for those of you who don't know, for some reason, meat is just honey wine. It's wine that's made where the fermenting sugar is from honey, instead of. Typically grapes in the case of most wine. And it's good. It's very good. And it, at least if it's made well, it's good.  Yucca: It's, it's one of those that I've found that most of the inexpensive stuff at the stores is not very cheap. Cheap meat is not.  Mark: really  Yucca: find cheap beers that are good. You can find cheap ciders, but cheat, Mead tip meat is like cough, syrupy  Mark: Yeah, it's the, the problem is that both the yeasts and the honey are somewhat more expensive if you want to get good quality stuff. And so if the meat is cheap, that means they went cheap with the ingredients. And so it doesn't taste very good. Yucca: Yeah, but there are some really, you know, it's, it's worth spending just a little bit more to get the better meat when you are buying it. And then of course, when you're making it yourself, it's, it's one of the much easier ones to make.  Mark: Yes. And it's, you know, it's a wonderful sort of out chemical process. It's, you know, it's life bubbling away in there making the, the alcohol and the CO2 and it's. It's a science project as much as anything else. And and then you have this product at the end of it. It's actually nice to drink. Yucca: And if you're going for that witchy aesthetic, It fits in real nice there. Mark: It does it absolutely does. You've  Yucca: got your, own BS even better, right. You get your BS and make it with your own. yeah,  Mark: yeah, yeah. That, that, that would be really exciting. I've I've never kept bees, but I have friends who have in there. I, in fact, I, I have a friend who used to keep bees. He doesn't anymore, and we did exchanges. You know, he, he would give me the bees, the honey that I needed to do a batch of meat. And then I'd give him half of the need that I made. So pretty.  Yucca: like a great deal.  Mark: Pretty good deal all the way around. Yeah. So anyway, today's tangent is about is about Mead making and brewing. And if you're, if you're interested in getting into that and you haven't been doing it so far this, this is a, an easy recipe that is really delicious. So it's, it's well worth giving it a shot. And the good news is that once you have the equipment to do it, then that's, that's the expense. Right? Other than the honey, that's really the expense. Yucca: Okay. And that, and for the most part, you can use all of that for your site or two, so yeah.  Mark: Yep. Yeah. Basically anything with romantic sugar, you can make wine that way too. It's just that wine. I mean, modern wine generally tends to be blends of several different vintages that are all kind of made to balance together and adjusted for flavor. And so.  Yucca: Mm.  Mark: I've never gotten into winemaking cause I live in the wine country and I can get a really good bottle of wine for 10 bucks. So it never struck me as making much sense to try to get 30 years of experience so that I could get as good as the guy that made the wine that costs 10 bucks. Yucca: Oh, you did mention, did we, did we talk about this while recording that that's another association that you have for this time of year?  Mark: I did mention that briefly, but yes. This is the time of the grape harvest in my area, which is called the crush. And when you drive the rural roads in the Western part of the county, everything smells like. Fermenting grape juice. It just everywhere you go, it just smells, it fermented grape juice. And there are giant trucks on the roads that are overflowing with bunches of grapes. It's really a pretty dramatic thing. It's a huge industry here. Yucca: How has the harvest deer to Sierra heard? It was a little bit of a rough year.  Mark: Yeah, because of the lack of rain. I know that there are actually a number of vineyards that have been taken out of production because. I mean, ordinarily what, the good thing about a vineyard, there are a lot of bad things about vineyards in terms of diversity and stuff. But the good thing about a vineyard is that once it's established, you generally don't have to water it. You can dry farm.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: In our, in our local environment, there's enough ambient moisture in the air and enough moisture in the soil that the grapevines will persist, but they have to be established for a couple of years with irrigation first. And we're in the middle of a drought now. So I know that there are some vineyards that have been abandoned and aren't because they, they won't be able to survive without irrigation. And there's no water. Yucca: Yeah, you have to have water to put out. So.  Mark: The, the other factor though, is that the very best wine grapes are highly concentrated in flavor because they grow on hillsides. And so they have access to less water. So it may very well be that some of the flat land grapes are similarly high in quality this year, because with less water, they've grown berries that are smaller, but much more concentrated. Yucca: And it works that way with the with Chili's too.  Mark: Does it? Yucca: Yeah. So there, there's all, there's a whole art to when you withhold water and when you give water to get the, to really get that wonderful spice and the flavor and all of that.  Mark: Hmm. Yucca: But unfortunately chilies are annuals, whereas grapes are perennials. And so when you're mono cropping, annuals you're destroying the soil  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: single year. Whereas your grapes mono crops of any kind is a, is a big problem, but less so than that happened to till every year.  Mark: Right. And we do have more and more people here who are trying to do integrated agriculture, where they'll grow other kinds of crops in the rows between the, the rows of grapes or you know, minimal pesticide use that kind of stuff that are trying to be more in balance with the natural world. Yucca: Yeah, it seems like there'd be a lot of opportunity for that with a vineyard.  Mark: Yeah, there is. It's just that there's a lot of expense involved and some of the things that you really need to do in order to be friendly to your local environment, welcome the birds to come and eat all your grapes. Yucca: Yes. Well, and sometimes your trouble with, if you're growing things between then you're harvesting becomes challenging and yeah. So it's, you know, it's, it's great in principle and I think we need to work there. You know, it's things haven't shifted for a reason. There's there are challenges that we have to work through to be able to make those shifts.  Mark: Yes. Yes. So that was your second tangent an exploration of the environmental impacts and opportunities for improvement of the wine industry.  Yucca: Yes.  Mark: And with that, I think we probably want to go into our final piece of discussion for you, which is that the atheopagan community is holding an in-person event. Next year. We've mentioned this before. It's called the century retreat and it's going to be from May 13th through 16th. Of 2022 in Colorado Springs, Colorado at a retreat center.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: And we are trying to get a handle on how many people are coming. So we're going to put a link in the notes. In the episode notes where you can go and you can register. If you're, if you're planning on going you, what you do is the, the event itself for the three days cost $215, and then you select your lodging choice. And that's an additional amount, which can be anything from 15 bucks. If you're camping too, if you want a private room in a cabin, it can be quite a bit more than that. Yucca: Or not if you're local, Right. If you're in the area, Mark: If you're local then. Yeah,  Yucca: It's great. Yeah.  Mark: It's going to be a wonderful event with workshops and rituals and socializing and just all kinds of great stuff and Yucca and I are both going to be there  Yucca: Who knows. Maybe we'll record an episode there.  Mark: we might very well. W yeah,  Yucca: In person.  Mark: wouldn't that be amazing? Yucca: Yeah. At the same table.  Mark: So. You know, if you, if you really want to hang out with some, you know, non-ferrous pagans and do some non theist pagan stuff really consider coming and joining us, we would love to have you be a part of that event. And as I said, we'll put a link to the the registration page with all the information in the episode notes. So we hope we'll see you there. Yucca: And it, it feels like a long time away, but it's really not. So, and that's why we're trying to get that handle on the numbers and see how many people are coming, because it's going to be here before we know it. Mark: that's right. That's right. Well, happy Equinox, Yucca. Yucca: Likewise, mark. And thank you for another wonderful discussion. So I can't believe we've we're already, already at the Equinox yet. Another one.  Mark: yeah. In fact that makes, that means we've been going here for more than a year and a half yeah. Something like six weeks, more than a year and a half. So it's kind of amazing.  Yucca: it is.  Mark: Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much and we'll see you next week.  Yucca: All right.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E26 TRANSCRIPT:   ----more----Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: And I'm the other one. Mark.  Yucca: And today we are coming back to the Atheopagan principles. So we've done a few episodes before, and we're going to tackle the final four today, although it's not like they're the last ones or the end, it's kind of cyclical, like probably all things and cycles. Mark: Yeah, these are principles. Just to remind listeners, or maybe you haven't heard the previous episodes about the atheopagan principles, these are the 13 core kind of operating how to live your life principles in the atheopagan path. And. So they are virtues they're things to be pursued and aspired to; adopting the atheopagan principles doesn't mean that you're perfect at them. It just means that you think that they're important and that you want to live your life in accordance with them to the degree that you're in. So, we've done two previous episodes, one about the first four. What about the middle five? And now we're doing the final four and we just want to talk about what they mean to us and why we think they're important.  Yucca: Yeah.  And  as always, this is not us saying you should believe what we believe, but we're talking about, we're talking about them because they are important to us and we think they're valid. Mark: Yes. I think they provide they and the four pillars, the four sacred things of atheopagan is and provide a sort of roadmap for. How to proceed a good set of tests when you're in a situation and you don't know what to do. Well, here are some, here are some guideposts that can kind of help you to decide what the right thing to do might be. So, we, we present them in that spirit, not in a vowel shelter sort of thing. There are no commandments in a non theist paganism and So I think we'll just get started.  Yucca: Yeah. So the first one is one that I think many forms of paganism share, but it's something that definitely sets paganism apart from. Modern religions. And that is that we are pleasure positive. Mark: Yes. There is a great deal of shame and doubt and self self harm associated with simply enjoying pleasurable things in the over culture. You know, and, and it manifests itself in many, many, many ways. In classic horror films, you can tell that the people that are going to get killed next are the ones who just had sex. Because they have to be punished. They did something pleasurable and now something bad has to happen to them. And in,  Yucca: deserve bad things happening to them because they were indulging too much in life or any of those things. Mark: right, right. You know, people this, the so-called victimless crimes where You know, we've we put people into prison for doing a mushroom trip, for example, which, you know, is a non-addictive substance that has zero record of people, you know, going crazy and killing people or doing anything harmful people generally just sit in one place and go wow for six hours. And, and yet we put people in prison for it. Simply because it's something that's enjoyable and there's a deep. History of this, going back to Calvinism and the Protestant reformation, and it is certainly heavily sewn into American culture, which of course was brought over by puritanical Protestant, Christians.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So in the pagan world, we think pleasure is good for you.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Obviously not at someone else's expense, obviously not without consent of any participating party.  Yucca: right. That's  big. That's huge. If it's, if there isn't consent, then, then that's something completely different. Mark: that's right. It's not okay. That's that's violence in victim ization. That's not that's, that's not enjoying something.  The the, the pagan community has generally been very laissez Faire around these so-called. Victimless crimes. Sex work for example, is something that is considered to be work. There are dangers associated with it and especially at lower socioeconomic levels where people are doing it because they need to survive. Not because they choose it. That's its own form of societal, lack of consent.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: You know, economic. Leveraging of people to do things that they don't otherwise want to do. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about people, you know, enjoying that ice cream enjoying whatever it is that gets you off sexually, whether or not, you know, you think that there are like bad things about it. If you and whoever you're doing that with are enjoying it, then that's a great thing.  Yucca: Yeah,  or yourself too, right?  Mark: Yes,  Yucca: We don't see masturbation as like a Ooh icky, terrible thing. Mark: right. Or a, or a, a poor substitute for partnered sex or any of that kind of stuff. Having a sexual relationship with yourself, normal and great.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: So do that, enjoy it. If that's something that you want to do. It's a, it's a simple concept to explain, but it's a life's work really to live in this manner because the over culture really does lean in on us. Hard about apologizing when we had too much fun, you know, about well, I had this, I had this banana split, but well then I, then I went running.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: You know, this feeling of like, you have to compensate for something pleasurable with something that is a work and an arduous and, and unpleasant in some way. We don't think so. We, you should just enjoy it.  Yucca: And of course not saying that one, shouldn't be taking care of themselves, making choices about, oh, is this banana split going to make me feel good later or not, but letting go of the, the  moral judgment around it. Right. And having it be. Purely a choice of, is this going to make me feel good or not? Or, you know, do I want to spend the money on it or not, but not I'm bad because I enjoyed and indulged in this delicious dessert that I really love. Mark: Right. And this principle ties in with all kinds of stuff around food.  We talked about food in a previous episode, in our relationship with food and I encourage it. To listen to that episode, but food is very pleasurable and we can get all twisted up with stuff around body shapes and body image and self relationship all around the simple fact that we take pleasure out of our food. And some people suffered a great deal because of that.  Yucca: And  it creeps into our language and way of thinking about it. You've probably heard people talk about clean food and not clean food or cheating on food or things like that. And that's all tied back to this anti pleasure, anti things connected to the Earth's Antifa, the animal side of it. Mark: Yes. Yes. And this is we, we talked about relationships a couple of episodes ago. This is why in March of the pagan community, you see alternative relationship structure.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Endorsed and supported and in, and and welcomed because we don't see anything wrong with relationships that involve more than two people. We don't see anything wrong with relationships that are open to sexual encounters with people other than the people that are in the relationship. Fortunately, this is now becoming mainstream, but you know, even 30 years ago, we didn't see anything wrong with homosexual relationships.  It's all about what works for people and what makes them happy. The BDSM community is welcomed in the pagan community for exactly the reason that if consenting adults want to do something together, that makes them happy. We're all for happiness. So, Yeah, That's really where a lot of that comes down.  Yucca: exactly. Mark: So that's pleasure, positivity. And it's the 10th atheopagan principal. And the next is  Yucca: Curiosity. Mark: right.  Yucca: Yeah. And this one, like all of them really important, but this one is one of those ones that it's harder to talk about. It's more of a, just an experience, right? Being curious for the sake of just the sake of wanting to know. Mark: right, right. I believe that it's an inherent human quality children are extremely curious. They're trying to figure out how the world works constantly. They're co you know, they're little scientists, constantly experimenting with different sorts of behaviors to see What happens.  Right. In the, in the case of adults, there is a danger of settling into a doctrinal dogma about the nature of the world. And then you stop asking questions about it and start defending the dogma. And this is the fundamental difference between faith-based religion of any kind, whether it, I mean, whether it's faith-based paganism, faith-based Abrahamic, monotheism Any kind of faith-based approach to the world where you've decided, you know, how it works. And now you're going to cherry pick the evidence in order to support that and ignore all the evidence that doesn't support it. That is.  Yucca: ask. And that frame the questions in such a way that it continues to confirm your pre-existing idea or view on the subject. Mark: Right. And that is exactly the opposite of a science-based approach.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Science is always asking new questions and I think it was Einstein who once said that the most exciting words in science are not, I found it or Eureka, but that's funny.  Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: Because a whole new range of questions have been opened, which if answered will reveal more to us about the nature of the universe. And that's what the goal is. The goal is to be learning about this place that we live for the time that we're given.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So curiosity has a lesson for us and the lesson. You don't know everything. There's always more to be learned. And that ties in with the atheopagan principle of humility, because however much of an authority, you may be on a subject. You don't know everything about it. Yucca: And  you're probably wrong on most of what you know, and you don't know which part it is that you're wrong on.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: right.  And that's just everybody, that's just what it is to exist.  Mark: Right. So being curious is a very important functional role for us.  And yes, well, it's fun. some of the time, but other times, like in conflict, for example, if you conflict with someone and you're sure that you know exactly what their position is and what they're trying to do to you. Then you'll have one set of responses. Right. But if you are curious to try to find out, well, what do they really mean by this? And what's their real goal. Then maybe you can take a different path towards some sort of reconciliation or, or finding of mutual common ground because you're inquiring rather than prosecuting an attack. Oh, the fenced  Yucca: Well, I think that leads perfectly into the next one, actually, which is integrity. Mark: also difficult to talk about because. I mean, it's very short, right? You should be true to your word and you should, you know, make agreements in good faith and have your, your discourse with other people be based in good faith approaches and not trying to manipulate or or, you know, maliciously devil's advocate as You know, some on the internet or want to do,  Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: but it's a really important one. it. The idea that someone is trustworthy is a very, very powerful component of our relationship with them. And if we conclude that they're not trustworthy, We won't get close to them. We just won't. And so the way to be close to people, the way to be able to work effectively with other people is to be seen as trustworthy.  Yucca: Right. Mark: And that means behaving with integrity. Yucca: And I think that applies not just with other people, but ourselves,  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: right. That integrity that we can trust ourselves is really, really important. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And some of that has to do with, you know, that, that critical voice that we talked about in an episode long ago that that's, self-destructive kind of voice that can arise in our own minds. We can ask ourselves. Does that voice have integrity? Does it, does it need me well, Yucca: Hmm. Mark: or is it trying to hurt me if it's malicious  Yucca: say  whatever it needs to, to make its point?  Mark: right, right.  Yucca: Yeah. So integrity. It there's integrity, but we can apply that in so many different areas. We could talk about intellectual integrity or emotional integrity or on and on. Right. But an in each of those fields, however it is that we're dividing them. It's that are you really. Being honest. Are you saying or believing doing to prove a point or to say what you think is true? Mark: Right. And that doesn't mean you can't be wrong. You can see what you believe to be true? and you can still be wrong about that. And that's, that's not being out of integrity. That's just being wrong.  Yucca: Yeah  Mark: and we all do that. That's, that's perfectly normal.  Yucca: being able to come back afterwards, if you do figure out that you're wrong and say, Hey. I'm changing my position. I was wrong.  Mark: yeah.  Yucca: This is where do I go from here? Right. So tying back into the humility, curiosity, integrity. I mean, these are all just woven together. Mark: Yes. Yes. And and the, I don't know where I was going with that. I lost it.  Yucca: Yeah, sorry, I cut you off on that.  Mark: No, that's okay. Oh, yes. The, the fact of coming back to someone with a changed position, I mean, that is an act of integrity. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, it's one thing, if you sort of guiltily realize that you were wrong, But. you keep it quiet because you don't want to admit that you were wrong. That's not so cool.  That's that's really not, that's not clean, but saying, you know, I was wrong. And now, you know, we agree on this point and now where do we go? That's that's a position of integrity.  Yucca: And it's rough, right? Sometimes it might be easy depending on what it is. And other times, you know, it can be a bit of an ego blow,  Mark: Sure  Yucca: but  it's one of those things that is practice, right? The more you practice, the, you are setting up a pattern of intention. Mark: right. It's super important to model this for children. I mean, I've, I've mentioned before that I had a pretty awful childhood. And one of the reasons that I had an awful childhood was that I knew that my parents were on drugs.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: They, they would lie and they would lie for different reasons. My father would, because being wrong was anathema as a narcissist. He just, he couldn't stand the idea of being wrong. And so he had that sort of Donald Trump quality of refusing to admit that he'd ever been wrong. Even though there were times when I just caught him out. I remember once he had mistakenly, he knew this, but he just said it backwards. He, he told me that the short end of the frequency spectrum of the rainbow was the the red.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that the violet end was the long end. And I mentioned this later, when I learned that it was the other way around and he said, no, I never said that. I would never say that.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And I couldn't have been more than seven years old when that happened, but it went all the way and, you know,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: here's somebody who will lie to me in order to protect his status.  Yucca: Yeah. This same idea is why we don't do Santa Claus or the Easter bunny or any of those things,  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: That, you know, and different, different people have different approaches to it. But the idea of lying to the kids and saying that there's this magical being who comes and does this and that You know, if you're good and all of that stuff connected in there as  well. And then, and it's like this lie that everybody is in on, not just the parents, but all of society. And it's like this big mean taboo. If you're the older kid and you like tell the kids the younger one about the secret that, oh, Santa Claus is not real. And my father has a story about finding out that he'd been like,  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: About Santa Claus. And he was pretty young at that moment at being raised in a Catholic family. And that was the moment he also went, oh, they must be doing this with Jesus and God too. Right. When? Okay. But, but that, that law, that loss of trust I think is, is, is heartbreaking. Mark: It is. And As I was saying before, trust is everything right? I mean, trust is the core of relationships.  And so, you know, that that integrity becomes very important. I want to acknowledge that lots of parents do have lots of different ways of orienting to the whole Santa Claus phenomenon.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And there are some that I think are pretty charming. It's sort of invite the child at a certain point to kind of take on the role with younger children. And it's sort of an initiatory thing. I think that's a little cleaner than just, well, we were lying, but it was because it was fun.  Yucca: Yeah. I think there there's definitely ways to handle it. We pretended. And of course not being a Christian family, but we still had Christmas and Santa Claus, but every for everyone, it was a wink, wink. Isn't this fun, right? Like there was everybody was in on the game of it. And then it was like a fun make believe sort of thing. But there was never, ever a moment when it was where any of us thought that it was a literal person coming down, our chimney that was about. But, you know, 12 inches across.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: So, so again, no judgment to other families for making whatever choice they do. Just that for us is why we don't do do it because I don't even want to go anywhere close to where it might, where my kids might feel like I lied to you. Mark: Right. And that brings us to the last of the atheopagan principles, the 13 principles, and by no means the least important, these are not in any kind of priority order. They, they are literally in the order that they occurred to me.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: I just, I wrote them down. And then when. After this one, there just didn't seem to be anything more. And maybe I'm wrong about that. And there are more principles that should be added, but so far it just hasn't seemed like that to me.  Yucca: Well, and 13 is just such a fun number,  Mark: Yes, it is.  Yucca: right? It's just, yeah. And then of course it, it worked out very nicely. I don't remember who it was in the Facebook group who suggested applying it to the moon. Mark: Right. I don't remember who that was offhand either, but it's a brilliant idea.  So for example, the full moon that we have coming up is the legacy. And so you just apply the principles to each of the full moons. And that gives a theme to each one of the full moons. And because there are 13 of them, they precess around the course of the year. So it's a lot like the theme is the same in June, every year. No, next year it's going to be in July.  Yucca: Yup. And then on and on and  Mark: Right, right.  Yucca: keeps rolling. So, but kindness and compassion.  Mark: Right  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: because we're all human. We're all gonna make mistakes. We're all gonna have bad days when we're snarling and snapping.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: And we have to be understanding towards one another about this. We have to be kind to ourselves when we don't need. The standards of the principles that we embrace, we have to be kind to one another and compassionate for the plight of one another, because people's lives can be very, very different. And we don't really know what all they're going through.  One of the, one of the first moments that I realized that I was growing up. Was when I was 12 or so I think, and it's suddenly twigged to me that everybody around me was also having this internal dialogue.  They were, you know, they weren't just characters in my, in my little drama that they were people and they had needs and motivations and injuries and all that kind of stuff. And I think it's really incumbent on us to be aware of this and to be kind.  Yucca: Yeah. Yes and This is one where, I mean, I think of it as I try and have it be my baseline that I returned. And the idea of, of having kindness and compassion doesn't mean that we can't have other emotions that there isn't a place that's appropriate to be angry towards someone. Or that being kind to somebody somehow means that we automatically agree with them. Right. You can be kind to someone without agreeing with what they're saying. Without accepting their position, but you can still treat them kindly. You can still have treat them with respect, whether or not you think that the way that they're behaving is appropriate or not,  but it doesn't mean that I think that the kindness and compassion are so key and critical, whether you believe that the person is acting in a way worthy of, of that, it's not something that they earn. It's just how you behave. This is I'm struggling to find the words here, right? Mark: Well, I think some of it is, it's not so much about them as it is about.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: The, there is a very, in the over culture, there is this very Protestant idea about, well, you know, people have to earn their kindness. They have to earn their compassion. And that's just not the case. Everybody has already earned it by dent of the fact that they're a human.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So it's all enough. To remember that and to act accordingly, even with people that are really difficult and maybe messed up and, you know, maybe striking out all over the place. And that doesn't mean to turn yourself into a punching bag. You have to, they have appropriate boundaries and, you know, be clear about what you're willing to tolerate and what you're not willing to tolerate. But that doesn't mean that you can't be. Kind and respectful and compassionate towards the people that you engage in your life.  Yucca: Yeah. And then tying back to what we were talking about with the integrity, when we mess up. Going back and acknowledging that,  Mark: right. right.  Yucca: Because again, we are going to mess up. Right. We're human. And I don't know of any other living thing that wouldn't mess up. No, we don't  believe in angels or, you know, divine beings or anything like that mean even then most of the stories of those have the mess it up quite a bit. Mark: they do actually. They're supposed to be perfect.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I want to emphasize again, that this principle applies to your relationship with yourself.  Yucca: Yes. Mark: So, you know, when you mess up sure. You know, fess up, acknowledge that, having integrity in relationship to it, but also cut yourself a break. You know, we're human and we're there for imperfect and we're there for allowed to make mistakes. If we learn from them it's, this is not a get out of countability free card,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: because it's still on us to learn from our mistakes and to have integrity in how we proceed from here.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But but to simply to simply have that, that impulse of kindness towards yourself, I think is really important.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, it's critical. And it's one of those things. I don't know how we could in a true way. Have it towards another without having it towards ourselves. I think  Mark: That's true.  That's true. I mean, people who have a very strong, critical test master running inside their own heads, they tend to be. pretty strong, critical test masters to other people  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you may ending and punitive and. That sort of thing.  And remember the, the atheopagan path specifically and non fee is paganism. Generally. They're about being happy.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: They're about, you know, living a good life and enjoying this ride that we get through this amazing place. I, it, to be organized, self-aware little columns of molecules. So. You know, pursuing ways to, to get the richness out of life and to build strong relationships and to you know, cultivate respect and to find pleasure. All of those are things that are really good for us and they'll help us to make a better world. They'll help us build they'll. Those qualities are contagious. They they spread so an important thing.  Yucca: And that's really what these principles going back to circle into. All of them are really about. Mark: Yeah. So we're, you know, very interested to hear your perspectives on on these principles and any of the others that we went into in any of the previous episodes. Before we close for today, I would like to talk a little bit about the century retreat in 2022 which I've mentioned before, but this is really exciting. We are holding an in-person. Gathering of non theist pagans in Colorado Springs, Colorado from May 13th through 16th next year at a retreat center, beautiful place.  And what we're doing now is doing all of the organizing around it. But soon there will be, you know, more promotional materials and so forth. You can find out more about the event at the atheopagan blog, which is atheopagan ism.org. There is a post that's pinned to the top of the blog where you can read about what's going to happen there, but it'll be rituals. It'll be fellowship. It'll be workshops. It'll be hopefully some kind of a nature excursion, although the place itself is in a beautiful forest with a view of Pike's peak and all that kind of stuff.  Yucca: It's a primarily Ponderosa pine forest, right?  Is that that's the right altitude where it's at. Okay. Mark: So, I'm just really excited about this. I'm already about 30 people are signed up to go. We have slots for about 80 and of course it's, you know, almost a year until this is going to happen. But the sooner people sign up the. So the better, it will be. The event itself is going to cost about $300. That's for lodging and food and the event. And the log that lodging is in bunkhouse years. So it's kind of collective sleeping. There are some opportunities for private rooms for families that need them or people who have disabilities, who need an ADA compliant set up, or just people that feel a need to have a door between them and the rest of the world. Some of the time, those will be more expensive. But we want to make sure that people know that they are. So I'm frankly, at a hundred dollars a day for for this gathering it's really going to be a lot. The food is good. I understand. But trying to keep the event itself as inexpensive as possible, because a lot of people are going to fly,  And their travel expenses and so forth. We're also going to make information available about how people can buy carbon credits.  Yucca: Wonderful. Yep. Mark: The carbon impact of their travel. That's pretty inexpensive. It's about $10 per thousand miles of travel.  Yucca: Oh,  Mark: So,  Yucca: That's that's good. Mark: it is and it's, it's very doable. And we really encourage everyone who comes to do that because of course, you know, airline flight is it's impactful.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And driving is impactful as well.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So if you have any questions about that or about the podcast or any comments for us  Yucca: Any topics that you'd like us to dive into? Mark: yes, we certainly welcome those. You can reach us at the wonder podcast queue. The wonder podcast, all one word Q s@gmail.com and we look forward to hearing from you and we are so grateful that you spend your time with us listening to our little podcast here. Yeah. So thanks. Yucca: you.  Mark: thank you. Okay.  Yucca: Thanks Mark.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E24 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Mark.  And today we're going to talk about relationships, big topic, lots to say about it. We expect this will only be kind of a first. Crack at what could be ongoing conversations on this subject, but particularly because relationships in the pagan community can be significantly different than mainstream kind of over culture driven relationships. We wanted to talk about that and what the differences are and some of the things to watch for. Yucca: Right. And also since we do enjoy talking about seasonal topics for many people, we're going into what's sometimes called wedding season. And this year there are a lot more than there were last year. There's people are still kind of holding off, but you might be going to a wedding or you might be having one yourself or.  Mark: You might be officiating at one. Yucca: exactly. Right. So not only for that seasonal reason, but also because this is such a human thing, relationships, whether it's a marriage or a partnership or a, I don't know what you would call a, a relationship with, not a partnership, but a  Mark: Well, because social  Yucca: social. Yeah.  Mark: you know, it's a sort of a social circle of friends, right. You know, we're, we are social animals. We evolved in packs and we rely heavily on the fact of the existence of other fellow people around us. And of course there are exceptions people who. You know, who are antisocial and don't really want to be very connected with other people. Humans are very diverse, but as a species, we did evolve that way. And so. And we're the way that we're built. When we reproduce, we have what is essentially a larval human, which is completely incapable of taking care of itself. And that requires ongoing relationships in order to support that child until they can care for themselves. And that requires many years of those relationships being attacked. Yucca: Yeah. So, so when we talk about relationships, We have many different levels, right? We can be talking about our romantic sexual relationships, but we also have the relationship between parents and children, friends, extended family work, all of those things. And the word relationship encompasses all of that.  Mark: Yeah, we have lousy terminology in English. I think I've talked about this before. We've got this one word love, which is supposed to encompass the emotional experience of all these different kinds of relationships. And then we have one word relationship, which is used to fill in the, the explained connection between people who are friends, people who are coworkers, people who are family, people who are lovers, people who are. Siblings, it just goes on. Yucca: so let's get into that. And let's also talk a little bit about. Why we wanted to talk about this topic, because this is a podcast about non theist paganism, specifically science-based non theist paganism. And sometimes it might seem like our topics are a little far off from that, but they're not right. This is all really connected. So, so let's get into that a little bit. Why this is so important.  Mark: Sure. Well, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, one of the things that I think about a lot, when I think about relationships with. Within the pagan sphere, is that fine? No, mentally we are a different kind of religious tradition and then the Abrahamic, right. Religions that drive the over culture, Christianity, Judaism, Islam. Those are authoritarian religions. They're hierarchical in nature with God at the top of the pyramid and they are filled with. Inherited rules revealed dogma doctrine, which is told to you for how you're supposed to behave. And that includes in your relationships. There's all kinds of stuff about, you know, first of all, there's very, very kind of siloed gender roles. So there's men and there's women and that's it. And then. There's a set of rules for how men are supposed to behave and what they're supposed to do, and a set of rules for how women are supposed to behave and what they're supposed to do, which is usually worse. And all of that is sort of handed to you and built into the assumptions that you have as you develop relationships with people at any level. Paganism is fundamentally different than that because it's not an authoritarian framework. It's a framework that's built around agency and empowerment. So relationships can become partnerships of discovery and evolution over time, and they have the opportunity to be negotiated in any terms. You know, the, the insulin. In a given relationship. Dad wants to be the caregiver and the, the, you know, house husband and do that and, well, great. No problem. It doesn't give anybody the willies the way that it does in, you know, some corners of, of the overall culture. The The things that people can choose to do can be much better adapted to who they are as individuals, rather than dictated to them because they are expected to behave a certain way. Yucca: Yes. Yep. And, and as always, this comes up in a lot of topics. When we talk about the over culture and pig and approaches, we are still steeped in the overall culture. And it's in so many ways that it's usually completely unconscious. And even though we may be coming from a different perspective, sometimes. We don't even realize what we're, what expectations we're bringing with us from society about gender roles or relationships, or, you know, what, what the, the expectations within a relationship, what those expectations even are and right. So, so think about. What constitutes cheating. So thinking about a romantic relationship, what's cheating and what's not cheating. Well, there's an answer on a societal level of what's cheating and what's not, but if your rules are slightly different than the expected rules, then it may or may not be, but that might not even be a framework that exists within your relationship. Mark: right. Exactly. So, because by definition, cheating means to break the rules, but if you invent your own rules, That are different than the over cultures rules. Then you can do things which the over culture might consider cheating. You don't because that's the agreement that you have with your partner. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: That's, that's the big difference. And so, for example, in pagan circles, we see a lot of polyamory. A lot of people who are having either open relationships or relationships with more than one partner and that means forming family units. You know, raising children together, the whole nine yards which on the face of it has a lot to be said for it in terms of attention to children and just the sheer available number of hands to do the work of a household, earning potential, lot of things like that. But the over culture will tell you that that's wrong. It can't tell you why it's wrong. It just tells you that it's wrong because it's sinful. It violates that that revealed dogma, that doctrine that was handed down and now suffuses our culture. Yucca: Yeah. So I think it's, it's really interesting to look at where we have those discomforts. Right. Like if you were listening to this and you had that discomfort of oh, oh multiple right. And examining where's that from is that leftover from the one man and one woman and they have to look the part and all of that, or, you know, perhaps there's somewhere else, perhaps you had a negative experience in your, or something like that, but, but often it comes from that from the Abrahamic religions. Being government.  Mark: Yes. And it's, it's challenging to conduct a relationship based on negotiated agreement. many ways, it's much easier to sort of lie back and kind of go with the model that everybody else is doing or nearly everybody else is doing. And the reality of course, is that as with all so-called normals, People are doing all kinds of stuff that isn't particularly normal, but they aren't admitting it. And they, and they are still, you know, keeping themselves looking respectable for their fellow  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yes. Whoever's observers.  Yucca: Facebook friends and mother-in-laws and all of them.  Mark: exactly. So, but when you're in a situation where you don't subscribe to that, Revealed handed down doctrine instead where you say, well, okay, you know, I wanna, I want to connect with you and now let's talk about how that's gonna work and everything can be on the table. Now, some people run screaming from the prospect of that. I find it to be very engaging, interesting, and much more Much more acknowledging of me as a person in the relationship, because it says, okay, I'm willing to look at you. You yourself, you're a real person hood. Rather than I'm going to look at you as an example of this role model, and I'm going to relate to the role model. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. So it, it takes more vulnerability. It takes that communication, that the true communication. It's vulnerable because you have to, you have to be looking at the actual person and looking at your ex at you too, not just looking at the role, looking at your partner or the other person as whatever role they're supposed to be filling, but looking at yourself, not just the role you're supposed to be filling and supposed tos with these big quotes around them. Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Yeah. And so it. Sometimes it can be painful to be, to really look at, have that presence and self-reflection to be able to really come to the table with that authenticity in that honesty and what you need, what you want and the difference between those and.  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Where you messed up. Right. Being able to go, Okay. Yeah, I messed up, Mark: Okay. Yucca: right?  Mark: we, we agreed on this and I didn't do it. And whoops.  Yucca: Yeah. Or I, I put a little knife in the end of that statement and I really I'm sorry that wasn't okay. On my part.  Mark: yeah. Yeah. So, So we're, we're talking, w what we're really talking about now is kind of the, the beginning part of a relationship, which, and it evolves over time because you can renegotiate agreements, but what tends to happen when people first become connected with one another in, in some way, there are all these implicit agreements that they make about how they're going to engage with one another. And some of that has to do with sort of. Category of relationship. You're we're lumping the person into, right. It's like my friend, Gary is a dear dear friend of mine. I'm not having sex with him. I'm having beer with him. And we get together on about a monthly basis and enjoy one another's company and talk about things that matter to us in the world. And that is kind of our understanding of what we're going to do, you know, together with one another. It can be. Very helpful and healthy early on in a relationship, especially a deeper, more intimate relationship to really explicitly have that conversation about what the agreements are. In fact, you can even write them down. It can be very helpful to say, okay, we agreed that we're going to relate to one another this way. And of course, then you're kind of accountable. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: and it may be helpful to have that over several conversations. Right to, to not be putting yourself on the spot and let yourself feel through some of those things, because you might be talking about, okay, well in a romantic relationship, how okay you are with, you know, how open in terms of being able to see other people or not, or, you know, feel through what that really is for you, because what's happening in a conversation. In the moment, there's all the social contracts and the, you know, agreeing with the other person and not upsetting them or those sorts of things that when you step aside and really feel through it, it might feel different than what it did at that moment. And making sure that you have a way to come back to that and go, okay, so this is what we talked about and you know, I've been really reflecting on it and these have, this is what's come up.  Mark: this is.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And I think that it cuts both ways. I think that on the one hand, it's important to step back and reflect on your own so that you understand what your, your true feelings are about, what has been suggested or proposed or asked for by a person who you're connected with. And, but the flip side of that is that sometimes, you know, you hear something and just go. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And then have this terrible reaction and the reaction can be loud and explosive and inconsiderate. And and I, and I don't mean you podcast person listener that I'm talking to, or even myself necessarily. But a person, you know, sometimes when, when people feel very threat. They will, they will swell up and bark as that's what primates do when they feel threatened. They, they make themselves large and they bark and Part of the trick of maintaining an ongoing relationship is the ability to come back to that table and have a calm conversation afterwards about the thing that's really scary. And some people are more able to do that than others. But it's a really valuable skill to cultivate the ability to disconnect behaviourally from. A strong emotion that you're feeling.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and you can say, you know, I'm feeling really scared and really angry right now, but I'm going to talk in a calm tone of voice. And I, I, I want to know more about this and I want to know what you're asking for. Okay. Yucca: I think it's, it's really valuable. You mentioned that it's a skill to cultivate  Mark: Hm. Yucca: this. Isn't something that. For born with this is this is practiced. It's, it's something that, that we stumble with and that we can get better over time. But just because it's hard now, doesn't mean that it's always going to be that way. Right.  Mark: Right. Right. And. You may find is that it gets easier with time because the outcomes end up not being the scary picture that your mind has presented to you when, when it was scared, the outcome turns out to be something that's more benign. It's, it's something that you can either embrace or at least you can live with. And that's just what, when you have those experiences a few times, it makes you less likely to go into that panic because you're not, your experience has been that when that triggered, since happens to you, It doesn't necessarily result in the disaster, the catastrophe that you've you've imagined it might. Yucca: Okay.  Mark: So a lot of what we're talking about here is we've been talking about agreements and one kind of agreement that people make implicitly or explicitly is about boundaries. Boundaries are really important in relationships because when we violate them, people feel violated. They, they feel that they've been treated badly in some way, and that can be. I mean, it can, it can be small things. It doesn't have to be big things. It can be small things. But if someone finds, you know, a turn of phrase, a tone of voice, something to be threatening or off putting to them, then they're going to feel like, Hey, you know, you crossed a line that I didn't want you to cross. Yucca: Yeah, well, and, and remembering that what is small to one person. Can be huge to another and vice versa that we are all different with very different experiences. And so our boundaries are going to be different as well. There may be some that are fairly universal, you know, don't hit. me with a car guessing that that's pretty universal  Mark: Don't hit me with anything  Yucca: No hit me with anything. Yeah. And then even then let's, let's have some very specific understandings around that.  Mark: Yes. Yes. Yucca: But yeah. So, so, but, but beyond something like that, there can be things like you were, you're saying the tone of voice or the type of language used the, you know, is it okay to follow someone? If they leave the room during an argument, things like that can be really, really key to work out because if we aren't emotionally and physically safe and our bodies don't really know the difference between those two things,  Mark: That's Right.  Yucca: we respond the same way. It's. I mean, it comes back to, what's the point of the relationship for you? If the point of the relationship is to be mutually nurturing? Well, that's not going to be a nurturing situation for any party involved, Right,  Mark: right. And once again, when we talk about boundaries, there's this whole template that gets provided to us by the over culture. And Yeah. Some of it is really pretty toxic. Like the idea that an angry man doesn't have to follow any boundaries that the fact that he's angry gives him justification and authority to do whatever strikes his fancy is as an action. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: That is, that is a subliminal rule in our existing culture. And it leads to a lot of violence, particularly against women also against children. And it's, it's a problem.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So those inherited templates around, you know, how to be, you know, for women, you know, do you just swallow it all in and not say anything about how you're unhappy because you're afraid of,  Yucca: Or internalize it as your fault.  Mark: yes, yes. Very much.  Yucca: shouldn't have made a mad.  Mark: Right. Yeah. And that's, that's a whole other episode right there of, you know, just the, the terrible mind games that people can get into with themselves to rationalize abusive behavior towards the in the context of a relationship where you are freely negotiating your boundaries, there are opportunities. There are great opportunities to get your needs met. I mean, one of mine is I don't like to be yelled at, I do not want to be talked with in a really, you know, sharp, critical tone. And I just don't. It shuts me down. I don't want to listen to it. And this is a challenge between myself and Amanda, my partner, because her impulse is to yell when she feels upset about something. So, having a, a conversation about, you know, how, what kind of communication style are we going to agree on? That's going to make everybody's needs. Is a really powerful thing. And in the context of a pagan framework where it's about agency and self-empowerment rather than following the rules, we can develop agreements for ourselves around what those boundaries are and how we're going to treat one another. Yucca: Yeah. And again, it's going to look different for every, group.  Mark: Right, right. It is. It's going to look very different. And of course, one of the things that, that, that does, as we said, you know, you can put everything out on the table. And discuss what we're agreeing to, what we, you know, what we reserve to ourselves as individuals, what we see as a part of the relationship, what we you know, how we're going to support one another in, in having that relationship. And, but some of those things can be very scary for people. You know, the idea of sexual openness in relationships is terrifying to a lot of people because they're convinced that it means that they're going to lose the person that they love.  Yucca: Or that it's a reflection upon their value or worth,  Mark: yes. Yucca: Right, That, oh, somehow if my partner is looking at or attracted to, or has feelings for someone else that that somehow means that I'm not enough. And that's something that we really get taught from, from a tiny age.  Mark: Yes. Yes. The whole idea of the one, the soulmate is a terribly toxic toxic idea. For one thing, there are a lot of people out there that can be compatible with anybody else in there. There is nobody on earth for whom there aren't multiple possible compatible partners.  Yucca: And if there were, if there really was only one, that's quite depressing. Because your chances of inner of there's a lot of humans, your chances of encountering that one. I mean, they're what 8 billion, I  Mark: Yes, exactly. You know, here, here I am looking for the one and unfortunately she was born in Thailand and I will need her. That's the end of the story. So that whole thing, that whole. And, you know, mostly what people mean when they talk about a soulmate is somebody that they really feel that deep resonance with a deep connection of shared commonalities as well as real appreciation for the beauty of the person, for who they are. And that's a wonderful thing, but the idea that that person therefore has to be all of the things that we want in our lives. Pernicious. I mean, if you have someone who, as a partner is everything you want in your life. Good for you. Great. Terrific. But if not then in a pagan framework, it's possible to have a conversation and say, well, these are needs that I have, that aren't getting met. And I'd like to talk about how I can get them in. Yucca: Yeah. I think it's an awful lot of pressure to put on one person,  Mark: It is,  Yucca: right?  Mark: it's a tremendous amount of pressure to put on one person and people break under it. And what you w w but you end up with is a lot of divorce, which is what we have a lot of divorce. Yucca: Yeah. Or just unhappiness  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: And  Mark: a lot of people who are unhappy. Yucca: And an acceptance of that, that well, that's just the way it is, right? Well, of course you're, you know, that's just what marriage is. That's just what a partnership is. Or, you know, those sorts of things.  Mark: oh, in that whole awful genre of jokes about wives and husbands and you know, those sort of, you know, denigrating, you know, the old ball and chain kind of, They're just terrible. And it starts from the very beginning in the, in the over culture. I mean like the whole idea of stag parties, you know, is the idea is okay, you get to be sexy with, with other people for the last time before we close the gate on you forever. It's, it's silly and it's kind of gross and desperate and really unconscious.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And what I, I dunno, I have mixed feelings about it, but the fact that bachelorette parties are becoming more and more like that I think is on the one hand, a good thing in that women are being able to own their sexuality more, but on another it's like, but it's a crappy model. Why would you know, why would you want to emulate men? Men are some of the most unhappy. You know, be knighted creatures in our, in our culture. They're only allowed to experience one emotion, which is anger and  Yucca: But even then Only sort of,  Mark: right. Only sort Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. Not really. It only in very certain circumstances. Yeah.  Mark: So, you know, the, the turning, turning, the available roles of women into the available roles of men is not necessarily a step forward. In my opinion, in all cases certainly the entrance of women into the workplace and into professional spheres and, you know, all that kind of stuff is really a tremendous step forward. Feminism ultimately was about choice. It's always been about choice. It's about women's abilities to make decisions for themselves about how they want to live their lives. And  Yucca: right.  Mark: well, yes,  Yucca: just right, because if it isn't everyone. then it's going to be no one  Mark: Right? Yucca: fundamentally. Right, And, and it's, and it. off on a tangent again, but it's one of the areas where I think that there's some times some missed understanding that people have that it's not just, we call it feminism because that's where the big problem was and how women and femininity and females and all of that is related to, but it's not the only challenge in society. right.  Mark: No, Yucca: You know, it's not, it's not, it's not saying that that's the only thing that matters and men don't matter and males don't matter. And all of that, like, no, no, no, no, no, No, no, this is less, but we've got a problem here. Let's take a look at this problem. And if it upsets you, that people are talking about the importance of women that's might not. be part of the problem.  Mark: Yes, you might want to, you might want to take a look at that, Yucca: yeah. Why is, why is that, So why is that? So triggering.  Mark: right?  Yucca: And, you know, we can tie that to, to stuff happening today with, you know, racial tensions and things like that. It's, you know, it's the same idea.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: But, but it sounds like you were talking about the, the roles that many of the roles that we have are very limited and toxic  Mark: Yes. Yucca: that it's on the one hand it's, it's a positive thing. That more people are able to be in different roles, but that maybe we also need to start breaking down some of the toxic roles that, and opening up  Mark: That's. Yucca: for people to be what they want without it being poisonous.  Mark: Right. That's really what I mean. And that ranges everything from being a sexual and a romantic all the way, you know, to being hyper-sexualized and, you know, highly, you know, I don't like this word because it's got a, you know, it's got a negative connotation to it, but highly promiscuous or, you know, relating with other people. Yucca: Can be highly engaged,  Mark: yes.  Yucca: might be.  Mark: Hi, highly having a highly diversified portfolio of, of, of humans.  Yucca: Oh, yes.  Mark: So, and, and once again, it comes back to agency and choice, and I really do think that this is the profound difference in terms of understanding human relating between the over culture and the pagan framework. At least as I've seen it practiced in the United and states Yucca: Well, cause we're doing it in other places too. So I think it's easier for us to. To look at everything that way, right. We're already kind of going against the grain when it comes to what our thoughts about nature and what are thoughts about divinity and all of these things.  Mark: right, right. Yeah. And. It seems pretty clear that the rise of the Neo pagan movement in the United States, because it was rooted, it was definitely bound in with the sixties counterculture. It was a movement of people who were going against that grain of people who were rejecting institutional doctrine, who were questioning Sort of Axiom of how the culture looks at the world. Certainly, you know, pulling up the floorboards and looking at all the bigotry that underpinned everything. So the pagan project has, has been one fundamentally of giving people. Personal autonomy and authority and agency to make their own decisions and then supporting them in, in doing that, at least in its idealized sense. That's what it's been now. Pagans are human. Like everybody else, people get scared. People have negative reactions, people, you know, discover that they really don't like the wife's boyfriend. They. They don't like him and it's not because he's the wife's boyfriend. They just don't like this guy. He's not, you know, he's just not the kind of guy that they like. So now what do you do, right.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And that requires a lot of work and it requires a lot of processing and maybe things work out and maybe they don't. But the point is you got to make those decisions for yourself rather than just being told you can't even experiment in this realm because it's not allowed. Yucca: Yeah. It's not whatever, it's not natural. It's not moral. It's not legal, you know?  Mark: Right. Right. Yucca: Now one interesting area that I personally don't have very much experience with within the pagan community is that there. And I think this is, is somewhat falling out of fashion. But in, if we go back several decades, when there was much more focus on the God and the goddess duality, especially within WCA in particular, I think some of that did have influence on the, the communities that we're practicing in that and how relationships should look. But in a lot of ways, though, some of those representations of the God and the goddess were really. Based in the preexisting gender  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: constructs, right? Those gender roles.  Mark: Yeah, very much so. And that's why there is so much controversy now. And there are so many people working within WCA to, to dissolve that gender polarity and look at divinity as much more fluid. And as we do, as science-based pagans, understanding that gender and sexuality exist on spectrum. That that can be very, very nuanced and that's true throughout nature. And it's true for humans too. And that that's all great. Yucca: And it's only a tiny minority of nature that even does that.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: right. It's pretty new, very, very new. And, and it's, you know,  Mark: We're still ironing the bugs out. Yucca: oh yeah. And we'll see you in a million years, what happens with, well, we won't humans. We'll see you in a few million years. If we're still around, what happens with us? See how that goes.  Mark: Right. Yucca: So,  Mark: I we're, we're getting towards the end of the podcast now, but I'm I'd really like to invite people who are experiencing what they feel are actualized kinds of relationships, you know, where you have a good. Communicative. Negotiating collaborating kind of relationship with your partner or partners be really interested to hear about your experience with that in a pagan context and how your paganism informs you know, Your relationship. It's a whole other thing to talk about relating to family that aren't pagan when you are, we did an episode on that a while back. But I'll at least touch on the issue here just to, you know, so, so you can see that there's representation. Yes, we see you. We know that that's a challenge. It's really hard. Yucca: Yeah. I see the topic come up quite frequently about having a spouse with a very different religious view.  Mark: Yes. Yeah. That can be really hard. I would think. I, I don't know. Yucca: I would imagine much more so than having parents or children with different views.  Mark: Yes, yes. Yeah, that's a really tough one and, you know, For me where I am, my spirituality is important enough to me that I don't know that I could do that.  Yucca: I think for me, it's so entwined with my world view, right. That I don't know if that could the person that I'm with that. Our worldview. Have to match enough, at least that we are able to, to interact and have that, that we can come to the table and work out whatever's happening with us after week after week, because it's not like it ever stops. We've we, we keep growing, we keep changing. The world keeps changing way faster than we can keep track of. right. And so, I, don't know if, if. I don't even know how to separate out my religion and spirituality from the rest of me. It's so I don't see it as these separate boxes. He doesn't know who to talk about the physical, emotional, spiritual, like, no, no, no, that's all, that's all just part of me. That's all related and that's part of my relationship. Right.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: So it's, it would be. Yeah. There's just so much to, every relationship has so much to navigate because it's not just every single person does, but then when It becomes a relationship, the emphasis so much it's exponentially more complex. Mark: It is, it's a multiplier effect. It's not additional, it's a multiplier. And where people you add, the more of a multiplier it is. I mean the Emirates are famous for lots of processing, lots and lots and lots and lots of processing. And Yucca: And in that case, I would imagine that, and this is a topic to come back to at another point, but that some sort of formal structure for conflict resolution might be incredibly valuable. In a case like that, again, depending on the group, but, but even having a structure for two people for conflict resolution. But once you're starting to add more people in and then adding on layers of, of, if they're a household together, there's finances there's, there may be children. There may be all kinds of levels that get added on to that.  Mark: sure. There's just scheduling time for people to be together.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Which I mean, if you add children into the mix and everything, it can just get all very, very, very complicated. And then what time is available, you may end up, spend up end up spending processing instead of like enjoying the presence of your partner. So it, yeah, it it's, it's challenging, but the people that practice it find it very rewarding. And what I want to say is, I'm not advocating any particular style of relationship. What I'm advocating is that people have the styles of relationships that they want.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And if that is a very traditional look, getting men and women in a household with children, that's terrific if that's what you want, but there's a range of what people can want and they should have what they want. Yucca: Yeah, exactly. And that, if that is what you want. that's what works for you. There doesn't need to be the shame around it. Right,  Mark: right.  Yucca: and, and there's, and my personal opinion, we got way too much shame going on. Right. You're it's always the damned if you do damned, if you don't, you know, you, you wanna. Be a homemaker and shame on you for doing those old fashioned, you know, not sticking up for your gender or whatever you want to be out in the world then. Oh, shame on you for not spending enough time with your partner or children or, you know, and none of that is helpful.  Mark: No. Yucca: Right. And It's hard to get rid of. Right. I feel it, everybody deals with it. Mark: It's been the primary enforcement weapon for the over culture for centuries, you know, the, the, the use of, of shame and not, not just like social shame, like the Scarlet letter, but internalized shame the sense of doing wrong because you're violating that doctrine that has been, you know, kind of. Beaten into you by the fact that you live in this culture, that you've seen it over and over. You've seen it in a million movies Noumea and I have a joke that polyamory would destroy most movies.  Yucca: Yes.  Mark: Because all the tension, all the conflict, you know, all the, all the love triangles, all the, it would just destroy the plot of many dramas, almost all the romantic comedies. It just,  Yucca: just, honest communication. Just say what you're feeling, you know, or common sense. Right. You know, put a drop of common sense in there. And that whole thing dissolves  Mark: Right. Right. Yucca: we have. Well, it, and the shame about the shame thing is that it doesn't serve anyone.  Mark: No. Yucca: It's not like there's someone winning. So to say out of any of it, we're all just suffering from it.  Mark: Right. Well, I mean, if you really buy into the, the mainstream framework, then the idea is that the shame is driving you to walk the straight and narrow so that you can go to that. But we don't buy any of that at, we just, you know, we don't buy any, any single part of that.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and if you do well power to you enjoy that. If that's the path you want to walk, but what we're doing here is really key that happiness. Here in this world, but that we know that is here and Yucca: I personally doubt that there's anything after words. Right? I  Mark: yeah. Yucca: that we are a beautiful, wonderful collection of atoms that. Breaks apart and becomes part of another beautiful, wonderful collection of atoms at some point. But I could be wrong. I highly doubt that there is something, but I don't. But what I do know is that there is now  Mark: This is  Yucca: me. I'm here. This is all I know that I get. And I don't even know if I get tomorrow.  Mark: Right. So pursuit of practices and and values that foster happiness become very important because what else are we doing here? And it's not just our own happiness, it's the happiness of those around us. It's the happiness of the ecosystem. It's the happiness of the future, as well as our own Honestly, if this is all there is what other possible value set would make any sense, because accumulating lots of stuff, you're still gonna die. Accumulating a lot of power you're still gonna die. If you accumulate power and you use it for good, well, I can see some rationale for that. So, you know, I have a couple of friends who were in Congress and they're good people and they're doing good work and I'm glad that they're there. But I don't know. I just it's. Unfathomable to me, why people would clean to the guilt and the shame around their desire and around their wish to connect with other people and around their doing the things that they love.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: it's just, it's not helping anybody.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: It's certainly not helping the people that are feeling. Yucca: And this, this relationship. I again, everybody's going to come into it with a different approach, different hopes from it. For me, it really just always comes back to it's about nurturing each other and supporting each other in that beautiful, happy, meaningful, joyous life. That's that's what it comes down to. And it's, it's not easy all the time. And the whole, the love will carry you through happily ever after. I don't really believe in that. I think that it takes work. It takes commitment. You're going to be pissed off. Right.  Mark: Right. Yucca: gonna do something that is just, what the hell were they thinking? And frankly, you're going to too, because we're humans.  Mark: Hm. Yucca: Right. And, and everything changes and, and being, being able to come back just to always being able to come back to that table with that honesty and that self-reflection and re evaluation is what lets us. Take this journey together, then help each other through it.  Mark: Right. Right. And not be alone  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: to feel truly seen and connected and valued. Over a long period of time, which, which will be an evolutionary journey. It will not be the same as when you started. So if you do decide to write down some agreements, I suggest you revisit them every few years, tear them up and start over because people change. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And, you know, one of the things that we've seen with the Abrahamic religions is that once you write things down, they don't change their, you might reinterpret them, but they're really locked in on the page and you don't want to be locked in. You want to be having agreements that fulfill who you are at this time. Yucca: Yeah. They keep growing and changing like that river, Right. It's the same river or is it love that? Right. And you keep, it keeps readjusting itself. Okay.  Mark: Yeah. One of the really cool archeological. Fines in the American south is a steamship, a, a river steamer that sank with all of its cargo and was rediscovered in an Arkansas cornfield, something like a mile and a half from the Mississippi river, because that's where the river used to be.  Yucca: That's great.  Mark: It is really cool. They. Th all the stuff was there. And so there's now a museum and, but yeah, the river moved Yucca: So we'll come back to this topic again, but this was our kind of our intro, our thinking about relationships. Wedding season or reevals or all of that stuff.  Mark: And if you're doing those things, our fondest wishes to you and best of luck, and we hope you have a beautiful day. Yucca: Thanks, Mark.  Mark: Thank you. Thank you.