Podcasts about joe you

Patrick shares a stirring audio clip from a Zoom call aimed exclusively at white women, focusing on their role in promoting Kamala Harris for the 2024 Democratic nomination. Patrick questions the concept of white privilege and the advice of self-proclaimed racists on how to navigate this political landscape.   Randy - I watched some movies you recommended and they were all really great movies! (01:45) Jennifer - How does one go about having the debate with someone who says that the Olympic ceremony has nothing to do with the last supper? (07:45) Dory - Why did the Eucharistic Congress happen during the Republican Convention? It divided me a lot. (13:01) White liberal women join a zoom call to fawn over Kamala Harris while discussing their white “privilege.” “As white women we need to use our privilege to make positive changes.” (20:03) Daniel - I'm a convert, and my non-Catholic son is trying to get me to listen to David Jeremiah. How can I respond to him? Eckhart - When Jesus said the Holy Spirit can't come unless He goes back to the Father. So how can Jesus be with the Father and made really present in the Mass if he said he couldn't be there when Mass happens. And how do you understand John 6? I think He is speaking spiritually. Joe - You make it very hard to understand the things of God when I hear you chat about political talk. Brian - If it looks like the Last Supper that is because they wanted it to look that way. (45:04) Emily - Should we support my mother-in-law getting baptized in the Baptist Church? (48:40)

14yo streamer puts hand in gal's food! Crime stats: Cooked books? OK vs NY violence. Look at yourself! Don't project on others! The Hake Report, Friday, April 5, 2024 AD TIME STAMPS * (0:00:00) Announcements* (0:02:00) Topics* (0:04:06) Hey, guys! Mildly Attractive (with gal emoji) Hake tee * (0:08:54) JAKE HUSDON, MI: Hello! * (0:12:33) Disrespectful 14yo streamer Kizzy puts hand in lady's food! * (0:15:23) (Hake re-explains story to JLP, then replays clip portions) * (0:26:46) JOE, AZ: Your stats are lies, Hake. * (0:34:30) JOE: You're a criminal! Obamacare? Bipartisan is evil! -Hake * (0:39:44) JOE: Shh! Communists, AJ, documentaries, "incitement" * (0:42:51) Coffees: Solar eclipses: FE vs BE…* (0:44:46) Coffee: Disagree 90%, why bandwagon black blame? Prejudice? * (0:48:53) Coffees: Kizzy in Roots? Pro-Semitic Octopus, hate/love weakness * (0:53:29) Rumble Rants: Crime prosecution down (Hake excited), Obama, JLP * (0:54:51) Andy Lau - 絕望的笑容 (Desperate Smile) Jue Wang De Xiao Rong * (1:00:46) Coffee: Joe in Phoenix, a liberal. Anger * (1:03:16) Crime stats, OK vs NY (Coffee yesterday, Prof David Bernstein, X) * (1:16:33) GLENN, NY: Fudged stats, "Poverty" * (1:23:17) GLENN: Trigger words (racism), Justified theft, Anger * (1:28:27) GLENN: Showy criminals, Secret Service story ("I digress") * (1:31:01) GLENN: Joe in Phoenix got me angry, triggered ("I take it back") * (1:33:32) Men's Forum; Look at yourself, not others * (1:39:04) X: David Bernstein, anti-Israel ideology, Nazism, people * (1:51:01) False ending: Hake does Cameos now! (No Joel Friday TV today!) * (1:54:42) Baltimore bridge vs boat, Biden vs Bibi * (1:57:08) Frog Eyes - "The Fox Speaks to his Wife who is not quite Sure" (2004, Ego Scriptor) BLOG  https://www.thehakereport.com/blog/2024/4/5/the-hake-report-fri-4-5-24 PODCAST / Substack  HAKE NEWS from JLP  https://www.thehakereport.com/jlp-news/2024/4/5/biden-wants-bibi-to-protect-gaza-civilians-hake-news-fri-4-5-24 Hake is live M-F 9-11a PT (11-1CT/12-2ET) Call-in 1-888-775-3773 https://www.thehakereport.com/show VIDEO  YouTube  -  Rumble*  -  Facebook  -  X  -  BitChute  -  Odysee*  PODCAST  Substack  -  Apple  -  Spotify  -  Castbox  -  Podcast Addict  *SUPER CHAT on platforms* above or  BuyMeACoffee, etc.  SHOP  Spring  -  Cameo  |  All My Links  JLP Network:  JLP  -  Church  -  TFS  -  Nick  -  Joel   Get full access to HAKE at thehakereport.substack.com/subscribe

The next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications is being built using Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit. However, many of the terms associated with these tools can be confusing. In this episode, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham are joined by Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald. Together, they take you through the different terminologies, how they relate to each other, and how they can be used to deliver the new Oracle Fusion Applications as well as stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/122614/ Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/110035/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. --------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this  series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular  Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Today, we're starting a new season on building the next generation of Oracle Cloud Apps with Visual Builder Studio. 00:45 Lois: And I'm so excited that we have someone really special to take us through the next few episodes. Joe Greenwald is joining us. Joe is a Senior Principal OCI Instructor with Oracle University. He joined Oracle in 1992 with an extensive background in CASE tools. Since then, he has used and taught all of Oracle's software development tools, including Oracle Forms, APEX, JDeveloper ADF, as well as all the Fusion Middleware courses. Currently, Joe is responsible for the Visual Builder Studio and Redwood development courses, including extending Fusion Applications with Visual Builder. 01:22 Nikita: In today's episode, we're going to ask Joe about Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit, also known as JET. Together, they form the basis of the technology for the next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications, as well as many other Oracle applications, including most Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) interfaces.  Lois: We'll look at the different terminologies and technologies, how they relate to each other, and how they deliver the new Oracle Fusion applications and stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Hi Joe! Thanks for being with us today. 01:57 Joe: Hi Lois! Hi Niki! I'm glad to be here. Nikita: Joe, I'm somewhat thrown by the terminology around Visual Builder, Visual Studio, and JET. Can you help streamline that for us?  Lois: Yeah, things that are named the same sometimes refer to different things, and sometimes things with a different name refer to the same thing.  02:15 Joe: Yeah, I know where you're coming from. So, let's start with Visual Builder Studio. It's abbreviated as VBS and can go by a number of different names. Some of the most well-known ones are Visual Builder Studio, VBS, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Stand-Alone, and Visual Builder Cloud Service. Clearly, this can be very confusing. For the purposes of these episodes as well as the training courses I create, I use certain definitions.  02:39 Lois: Can you take us through those? Joe: Absolutely, Lois. Visual Builder Studio refers to a product that comes free with an OCI account and allows you to manage your project-related assets. This includes the project itself, which is a container for all of its assets. You can assign teams to your projects, as well as secure the project and declare roles for the different team members. You manage GIT repositories with full graphical and command-line GIT support, define package, build, and deploy jobs, and create and run continuous integration/continuous deployment graphical and code-managed pipelines for your applications. These can be visual applications, created using the Visual Builder Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, or non-visual apps, such as Java microservices, docker builds, NPM apps, and things like that. And you can define environments, which determine where your build jobs can be deployed. You can also define issues, which allow you to identify, track, and manage things like bugs, defects, and enhancements. And these can be tracked in code review merge requests and build jobs, and be mapped to agile sprints and scrum boards. There's also support for wikis for team collaboration, code snippets, and the management of the repository and the project itself. So, VBS supports code reviews before code is merged into GIT branches for package, build, and deploy jobs using merge requests.  03:57 Nikita: OK, what exactly do you mean by that? Joe: Great. So, for example, you could have developers working in one GIT branch and when they're done, they would push their private code changes into that remote branch. Then, they'd submit a merge request and their changes would be reviewed.  Once the changes are approved, their code branch is merged into the main branch and then automatically runs a CI/CD package (continuous integration/continuous deployment) package, build, and deploy job on the code. Also, the CI/CD package, build, and deploy jobs can run against any branches, not just the main branch. So Visual Builder Studio is intended for managing the project and all of its assets. 04:37 Lois: So Joe, what are the different tools used in developing web applications? Joe: Well, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Studio Designer, Visual Builder Designer, Visual Builder Design-Time, Visual Builder Cloud Service, Visual Builder Stand-Alone all kind of get lumped together. You can kinda see why. What I'm referring to here are the tools that we use to build a visual web application composed of HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) for metadata. I call this Visual Builder Designer. This is an Integrated Development Environment, it's the “IDE” which runs in your browser. You use a combination of drag and drop, setting properties, and writing and modifying custom and generated code to develop your web applications. You work within a workspace, which is your own private copy of a remote Git branch. When you're ready to start development work, you open an existing workspace or create a new one based on a clone of the remote branch you want to work on. Typically, a new branch would be created for the development work or you would join an existing branch. 05:35 Nikita: What's a workspace, Joe? Is it like my personal laptop and drive?  Joe: A workspace is your own private code area that stores any changes you make on the Oracle servers, so your code changes are never lost—even when working in a browser-based, network-based tool. A good analogy is, say I was working at home on my own machine. And I would make a copy of a remote GIT branch and then copy that code down to my local machine, make my code changes, do my testing, etc. and then commit my work—create a logical save point periodically—and then when I'm ready, I'd push that code up into the remote branch so it can be reviewed and merged with the main branch. My local machine is my workspace. However, since this code is hosted up by Oracle on our servers, and the code and the IDE are all running in your browser, the workspace is a simulation of a local work area on your own computer. So, the workspace is a hosted allocation of resources for you that's private. Other people can't see what's going on in your workspace. Your workspace has a clone of the remote branch that you're working with and the changes you make are isolated to your cloned code in your workspace. 06:38 Lois: Ok… the code is actually hosted on the server, so each time you make a change in the browser, the change is written back to the server? Is it possible that you might lose your edits if there's a networking interruption? Joe: I want to emphasize that while I started out not personally being a fan of web-based integrated development environments, I have been using these tools for over three years and in all that time, while I have lost a connection at times—networks are still subject to interruptions—I've never lost any changes that I've made. Ever. 07:08 Nikita: Is there a way to save where you are in your work so that you could go back to it later if you need to? Joe: Yes, Niki, you're asking about commits and savepoints, like in a Git repository or a Git branch. When you reach a logical stopping or development point in your work, you would create a commit or a savepoint. And when you're ready, you would push that committed code in your workspace up to the remote branch where it can be reviewed and then eventually merged, usually with the main Git branch, and then continuous integration/continuous package and deployment build jobs are run. Now, I'm only giving you a high-level overview, but we cover all this and much more in detail with hands-on practices in our Visual Builder developer courses. Right now, I'm just trying to give you a sense of how these different tools are used. 07:49 Lois: Yes, that makes sense, Joe. It's a lot to cover in a short amount of time. Now, we've discussed the Visual Builder Designer IDE and workspace. But can you tell us more about Visual Builder Cloud Service and stand-alone environments? What are they used for? What features do they provide? Are they the same or different things? Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service or Visual Builder Stand-Alone, as it's sometimes called, is a service that Oracle hosts on its servers. It provides hosting for the deployed web application source code as well as database tables for business objects that we build and maintain to store your customer data. This data can come from XLS or CSV files, or even your own Oracle database customer table data.  A custom REST proxy makes calls to external third-party REST services on your behalf and supports several popular authentication mechanisms. There is also integration with the Identity Cloud Service (IDCS) to manage users and their access to your web apps. 08:47 Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service is a for-fee product. You pay licensing fees for how much you use because it's a hosted service. Visual Builder Studio, the project asset management aspect I discussed earlier, is free with a standard OCI license. Now, keep in mind these are separate from something like Visual Builder Design Time and the service that's running in Fusion application environments. What I'm talking about now is creating standalone, bespoke, custom visual applications. These are applications that are built using industry-standard HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON for metadata and are hosted on the Oracle servers. 09:27 Are you looking for practical use cases to help you plan and apply configurations that solve real-world challenges?  With the new Applied Learning courses for Cloud Applications, you'll be able to practically apply the concepts learned in our implementation courses and work through case studies featuring key decisions and configurations encountered during a typical Oracle Cloud Applications implementation. Applied learning scenarios are currently available for General Ledger, Payables, Receivables, Accounting Hub, Global Human Resources, Talent Management, Inventory, and Procurement, with many more to come!  Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 10:09 Nikita: Welcome back! Joe, you said Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone is a for-fee service. Is there a way I can learn about using Visual Builder Designer to build bespoke visual applications without a fee? Joe: Yes. Actually, we've added an option where you can run the Visual Builder Designer and learn how to create web apps without using the app hosting or the business object database that stores your customer data or the REST proxy for authentication or the Identity Cloud Service. So you don't get those features, but you can still learn the fundamentals of developing with Visual Builder Designer. You can call third-party APIs, you can download the source, and run it locally, for example, in a Tomcat server. This is a great and free way to learn how to develop with the Visual Builder Designer. 10:52 Lois: Joe, I want to know more about the kinds of apps you can build in VB Designer and the capabilities that VB Cloud Service provides. Joe: Visual Builder Designer allows you to build custom, bespoke web applications made of interactive webpages; flows of pages for navigation; events that respond when things happen in the app, for example, GUI events like a button is clicked or values are entered into a text field; variables to store state and the ability to make REST calls, all from your browser. These applications have full access to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs, given that you have the right security permissions and credentials of course. They can access your customer business data as business objects in our internally hosted database tables or your own customer database tables. They can access third-party APIs, and all these different data sources can appear in the same visual application, on the same page, at the same time. They use the identity cloud service to identify which users can log in and authenticate against the application. And they all use the new Redwood graphical user interface components and page templates, so they have the same look and feel of all Oracle applications. 11:59 Nikita: But what if you're building or extending Oracle Fusion Applications? Don't things change a little bit? Joe: Good point, Niki. Yes. While you still work within Visual Builder Studio, that doesn't change, VBS maintains your project and all your project-related assets, that is still the same. However, in this case, there is no separate hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone instance. In this case, Visual Builder is hosted inside of Fusion apps itself as part of the installation. I won't go into the details of how the architecture works, but the Visual Builder instance that you're running your code against is part of Fusion applications and is included in the architecture as well as the billing. All your code changes are maintained and stored within a single container called an extension. And this extension is a Git repository that is created for you, or you can create it yourself, depending on how you choose to work within Visual Builder Studio. You create an extension to hold the source code changes that provide a customization or configuration. This means making a change to an existing page or a set of pages or even adding new pages and flows to your Oracle Fusion Applications. You use Visual Builder Studio and Visual Builder Designer in a similar way as to how you would use them for bespoke stand-alone visual applications.  13:10 Lois: I'm trying to envision how this workflow is used. How is it different from bespoke VB app development? Or is it different at all? Joe: So, recall that the Visual Builder Designer is effectively the Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, where you make your code changes by working with both the raw HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code, if need be, or the Page Designer for drag and drop, and setting properties and then Live mode to test your work. You use a version of VB Designer to view and modify your customizations, and the code is stored in a Git repository called an extension. So, in that sense, the work of developing pages and flows and such is the same.  You still start by creating or, more typically, joining a project and then either create a new extension from scratch or base it on an existing application, or go directly to the page that you want to edit and, on that page, select from your profile menu to edit in Visual Builder Studio. Now, this is a different lifecycle path from bespoke visual applications. With them, you're not extending an app or modifying individual pages in the same way. 14:11 Joe: You get a choice of which project you want to add your extension to when you're working with Fusion apps and potentially which repository to store your customizations, unless one already exists and then it's assigned automatically to hold your code changes. So you make your changes and edits to the portions of the application that have been opened for extensibility by the development team. This is another difference. Once you make your code changes, the workflow is pretty much the same as for a bespoke visual application: do your development work, commit your changes, push your changes to the remote branch. And then typically, your code is reviewed and if the code passes and is approved, it's merged with the main branch. Then, the package and deploy jobs run to deploy the main code to the production environment or whatever environment you're targeting. And once the package and deploy jobs complete, the code base is updated and users who log in see the changes that you've made. 15:00 Nikita: You mentioned creating apps that combine data from Fusion cloud, applications, customer data, and third-party APIs into one page. Why is it necessary? Why can't you just do all that in one Fusion Applications extension? Joe: When you create extensions, you are working within the Oracle Fusion Applications ecosystem, that's what they actually call it, which includes a defined a set of users who have been predefined and are, therefore, known to Fusion Applications. So, if you're a user and you're not part of that Fusion Apps ecosystem, you can't access the pages. Period. That's how Fusion Apps works to maintain its security and integrity. Secondly, you're working pretty much solely with the Fusion Applications APIs data sources coming directly from Fusion Applications, which are also available to you when you're creating bespoke visual apps. When you're working with Fusion Applications in Visual Builder, you don't have access to these business objects that give you access to your own customer database data through Visual Builder-generated REST APIs. Business objects are available only to bespoke visual applications in the hosted VB Cloud Service instance.  So, your data sources are restricted to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs and some third-party APIs that work within a narrow set of authentication mechanisms currently, although there are plans to expand this in the future. A mashup app that allows you now to access all these data sources while creating apps that leverage the Redwood Component System, so they look and work like Fusion Apps. They're a highly popular option for our partners and customers. 16:25 Lois: So, to review, we have two different approaches. You can create a visual application using the for-fee, hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service/Stand-Alone or the one that comes with Oracle Integration Cloud, or you can use the extension architecture for Fusion applications, where you use the designer and create your extensions, and the code is delivered and deployed to Fusion applications code.  You haven't talked about JET yet though, Joe. What is that? Joe: So, JET is an abbreviation. It stands for Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit and JET is the underlying technology that makes Visual Builder, visual applications, and Visual Builder Extensions for Fusion Applications possible. Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit provides a module-based, open-source toolkit that leverages modern JavaScript, TypeScript, CSS3, and HTML5 to deliver web applications. It's targeted at JavaScript developers working on client-side applications. It is not for backend development.  It's a collection of popular, powerful JavaScript libraries and a set of Oracle-contributed JavaScript libraries that make it very simple, easy, and efficient to build front-end applications that can consume and interact with Oracle products and services, especially Oracle Cloud services, but of course it can work with any type of third-party API. 17:42 Nikita: How are JET applications architected, Joe, and how does that relate to Visual Builder pages and flows? Joe: The architecture of JET applications is what's called a single page architecture. We've all seen these. These are where you have a single web page—think of your index page that provides the header and footer for your web page—and then the middle portion or the middle content of the page, represented by modules, allow you to navigate from one page or module to another. It also provides the data mapping so that the data elements in the variables and the state of the application, as well as the graphical user interface elements that provide the fields and functionality for the interface for the application, these are all maintained on the client side. If you're working in pure JET, then you work with these modules at the raw JavaScript code level. And there are a lot of JavaScript developers who want to work like this and create their custom applications from the code up, so to speak. However, it also provides the basis for Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion Apps visual extensions in Visual Builder. 18:38 Lois: How does JET support VB Apps? You didn't talk much about having to write a bunch of JavaScript and HTML5 so I got the impression that this is all done for you by VB Designer? Joe: Visual Builder applications are composed of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code that is usually generated by the developer when she drags and drops components on to the page designer canvas or sets properties or creates action chains to respond to events. But there's also a lot of JavaScript object notation (JSON) metadata created at the time that describes the pages, the flows, the navigation, the REST services, the variables, their data types, and other assets needed for the app to function. This JSON metadata is translated at runtime using a large JavaScript extension toolkit library called the Visual Builder Runtime that runs in the browser and real time translates the metadata and other assets in the Visual Builder source code into JET code and assets, which are actually executed at runtime. And it's very quick, very fast, very efficient, and provides a layer of abstraction between the raw JET code and the Visual Builder architecture of pages, flows, action chains for executing code and events to handle things that occur in the user interface, including saving the state in variables that are mapped to GUI components. For example, if you have an Input text component, you need to have a variable to store the value that was entered into that Input text component between page refreshes. The data can move from the Input text component to the variable, and from the variable to that Input text component if it's changed programmatically, for example. So, JET manages binding these data values to variables and the UI components on the page. So, a change to a variable value or a change to the contents of the component causes the others to change automatically. Now, this is only a small part of what JET and the frameworks and libraries it uses do for the applications.  JET also provides more complex GUI components like lists and tables, and selection lists, and check boxes, and all the sorts of things you would expect in a modern GUI application. 20:34 Nikita: You mentioned a layer of abstraction between Visual Builder Studio Designer and JET. What's the benefit of working in Visual Builder Designer versus JET itself? Joe: The benefit of Visual Builder is that you work at a higher level of abstraction than having to get down into the more detailed levels of deep JavaScript code, working with modules, data mappings, HTML code, single page architecture navigation, and the related functionalities. You can work at a higher level, a graphical level, where you can drag and drop things onto a design canvas and set properties. The VB architecture insulates you from the more technical bits of JET. Now, this frees the developer to concentrate more on application and page design, implementing logic and business rules, and creating a pleasing workflow and look and feel for the user. This keeps them from having to get caught up in the details of getting this working at the code level.  Now if needed, you can write custom JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3 code, though much less than in a JET app, and all that is part of the VB application source, which becomes part of the code used by JET to execute the application itself. And yet it all works seamlessly together. 21:35 Lois: Joe, I know we have courses in JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. But does a developer getting ready to work in Visual Builder Designer have to go take those courses first or can they start working in VB Designer right away? Joe: Yeah, that question does often comes up: Do I need to learn JET to work with Visual Builder? No, you don't. That's all taken care for you in the products themselves. I don't really think it helps that much to learn JET if you are going to be a VB developer. In some ways, it could even be a bit distracting since some of things you learn to do in JET, you would have to unlearn or not do so much because of what VB does it for you. The things you would have to do manually in code in JET are done for you. This is why we call VB a low code development tool.  I mean, you certainly can if you want to, but I would spend more time learning about the different GUI components, page templates, the Visual Builder architecture — events, action chains, and the data provider variables and types. Now, I know JET myself. I started with that before learning Visual Builder, but I use very little of my JET knowledge as a VB developer. Visual Builder Designer provides a nice, abstracted, clean layer of modern visual development on top of JET, while leveraging the power and flexibility of JET and keeping the lower-level details out of my way. 22:46 Nikita: Joe, where can I go to get started with Visual Builder? Joe: Well, for more information, I recommend you take a look at our Develop Fusion Applications course if you're working with Fusion Applications and Visual Builder Studio. The other course is Develop Visual Applications with Visual Builder Studio and that's if you're creating stand-alone bespoke applications. Both these courses are free. We also have a comprehensive course that covers JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3, and while it's not required that you take that to be successful, it can be helpful down the road. I would say that some basic knowledge of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript will certainly support you and serve you well when working with Visual Builder. You learn more as you go along and you find that you need to create more sophisticated applications. I would also mention that a lot of the look and feel of the applications in Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion apps extensions and customizations come through JET components, JET styles, and JET variables, and CSS variables, so that's something that you would want to pursue at some point. There's a JET cookbook out there. You can search for Oracle JET and look for the JET cookbook and that's a good introduction to all of that. 23:47 Lois: Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really looking forward to having you back next week to discuss extending Oracle Fusion Applications with Visual Builder Studio. Joe: Thanks for having me. Nikita: And if you want to learn about some of the courses Joe mentioned, visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. Until next time, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston signing off! 24:09 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

Stefania Mallett, co-founder and former CEO of ezCater, shares her entrepreneurial journey and insights into effective board governance. She emphasizes the importance of board composition, highlighting the pivotal role of understanding marketplaces and the nuances of investor-backed boards.   Stefania also discusses the crucial dynamic between CEOs and board chairs, the challenges in communicating complex business scenarios to board members and the critical process of succession planning.   We love our listeners! Drop us a line or give us guest suggestions here. Big Ideas/Thoughts/Quotes: On Relationship Between Board and CEO/Management in Investment Backed Companies “.. it's kind of like grandparents.  The board cares intensely, but in the end, they hand the baby back and you - the CEO and/or the managing team - you're the parents and you have to deal with all of the colicky moments and all of the ups and downs and all of the difficulties and so much more about what's going on inside the company.”   “It doesn't matter how effective a communicator you are, having been on both sides, I can tell you that the most well-intentioned, most transparent, most forthcoming CEO cannot possibly convey to the board everything that the management team knows.”   Origin Story of ezCater and Early Board “..we closed [a company I had help found] down on a Thursday. I went home and got drunk on the weekend and on Monday we started the business that turned into ezCater, which was helping make food appear for business meetings[!]” “Don't bring people onto your board who don't understand your business”   Evolution of the Board through ezCater's Journey and role of a Board Chair “we started to get more professional board members who understood our business.  We lucked into someone [Chris Cuddy] at Launchpad, who understood marketplace businesses, not specifically in the catering food for work business, but he came out of online travel [marketplace].  It turns out one marketplace is a lot more like another marketplace”   “we lucked into someone who became our board chair and $425 million of venture capital funding from some of the biggest venture companies on the planet later, we are now thousands of times the size we were when we first met this Chris”    I don't have a velvet hammer as much as I'm impatient. Impatience is the mother of invention, and so when I watch Chris Cuddy our board chair do his work I think, "Oh my God, that's just better."  He's more patient. He listens. It doesn't really take longer. It feels like a circuitous path to the answer, but it's actually about the same length of time as I would have taken with less angst, less fireworks. The founder and CEO are not necessarily the best board chairs.”   Transition of CEO for ezCater “the company was ready, and I was ready, and I went to the board meeting a few weeks later and I said, "Guys, I got to go. It's time.”   “We launched a search and found my successor. Because of internal discussions, because of the board's hesitation, because whatever, we ended up taking a year. We had the time, I mean it wasn't like running, screaming for the exits, and I wasn't doing a terrible job. My team was doing a super job”   “When this person started, now it's three months, four months, and it's quite clear, he has experience at the 10X level. He brings in knowledge, not just "I think we should try this,"”   Joe: “You have touched upon series of things that apparently apply to investor-backed companies and startups that also apply to every for-profit company, whether private or public. The importance of the chair, the importance of learning to share power - every CEO has to learn it, every founder has to learn it. Every investor, whether it's a startup or not, has to learn it.”   Effectiveness as a Board Member and Over-boarding “One of the very best board members I have had in my entire career in all the companies that I've been on or on all boards I've chaired or that I've been on the board is a guy who, when I did his reference checks for him people raved about him and when I would ask, so what's wrong with the guy?  Almost every one of them said ‘he's on too many boards.' ”   “It's important to remember that the board gives you a couple of things that you can't get anywhere else.  One is the cadence of every X weeks or X months, you have to report to these people…. There's something about that regular cadence of having to report, that is very valuable.”   The second thing you get from them is perspective. If they are good board members, they bring you a portfolio perspective. You live your life as a portfolio. You can only do one company at a time. Even more industrious and somehow energetic entrepreneurs than I do are involved in two startups at a time, but it's rare.  But these people who are on your board are involved in 10 startups right now, or 10 companies at your stage right now and have seen many others, and so they can say to you, "Listen, I saw people try exactly what you tried and here's what happened to them," and you can save a bunch of time.”

This week on The Gospel Jubilee in keeping with Veterans Day Chip and Denny will be paying tribute to the men and women whom have served in the American Armed Forces and will also be playing a couple of songs from their featured mystery artists of the week and a song from dipping deep into the archives. Here are all of the ways you can listen to the Gospel Jubilee On your Echo device say, Alexa, play the Gospel Jubilee on Apple podcast. For a direct download go to: https://api.spreaker.com/v2/episodes/57580986/download.mp3 Ocean Waves Radio ... every Wednesday at 5:00 PM Eastern time., www.OceanWavesRadio.com Thursday afternoons at 4:00 PM and Sunday mornings at 9:30 AM EST on Southern Branch Bluegrass Radio, www.sbbradio.org Saturday evenings at 7:00 and Wednesday afternoons at 4:00 CST on Radio For Life, www.RadioForLife.org Legend Oldies Radio. Our broadcast will be aired every Sunday morning at 9:00 AM CDT. https://www.legendoldies.com Playlist: Artists |Song Title | Album 01. Carroll Roberson - A happy day - "Treasures Old & New" 02. The Guardians - He'll welcome me - "Silver Anniversary" 03. The Telestials - I wanna go there - "I Can Call Jesus" 04. Anthem Edition - I want to get closer to my God - "Hits" 05. The Booth Brothers - Lord, I hope this day is good - "Country Road - Volume 1" 06. The Troy Burns Family - Be happy - "All We Need To Know" 07. The Mark Trammell Quartet - After all - "Classic" 08. The Kingsmen - I will rise up from my grave - "Decade Volume 1" 09. The Collingsworth Family - Magnify Him - "Mercy & Love" 10. The Clark Family - Is He worthy - "He Alone Is Worthy" 11. The Taylors - For what I don't know - "Hope & Healing" 12. The Martins - In the presence of Jehovah - "Decade" 13. The Statesmen Quartet - Little boy lost ( with Hovie Lister) - "The Sensational Statesmen Quartet" 14. Final Harvest - I will never leave you alone - "Never Alone" 15. Mystery artist of the week - Carry my boat - "Ann Margret, and The Jordanaires Carry My Boat" 16. Another mystery artist of the week - Suddenly there's a valley - "Favorite Hymns" 17. Brian Free & Assurance - Over the horizon - "30th Anniversary Remastered" 18. Mike Lichner - Bringing home the heroes (National Version) - "Bring Home The Heroes" 19. Mark Bishop - Happy birthday G.I. Joe - "You're Happy When You're Laughing" 20. Endless Highway - 'Til they came home - "Countless EP" 21. Rhonda Vincent - God bless the soldier - "All American Bluegrass Girl" 22. The Petersens - More than a name on the wall - "Homesick For A Country" Outro – When the Roll Is Called Up Yonder – New Horizons

Victoria is joined by guest co-host Joe Ferris, CTO at thoughtbot, and Seif Lotfy, the CTO and Co-Founder of Axiom. Seif discusses the journey, challenges, and strategies behind his data analytics and observability platform. Seif, who has a background in robotics and was a 2008 Sony AIBO robotic soccer world champion, shares that Axiom pivoted from being a Datadog competitor to focusing on logs and event data. The company even built its own logs database to provide a cost-effective solution for large-scale analytics. Seif is driven by his passion for his team and the invaluable feedback from the community, emphasizing that sales validate the effectiveness of a product. The conversation also delves into Axiom's shift in focus towards developers to address their need for better and more affordable observability tools. On the business front, Seif reveals the company's challenges in scaling across multiple domains without compromising its core offerings. He discusses the importance of internal values like moving with urgency and high velocity to guide the company's future. Furthermore, he touches on the challenges and strategies of open-sourcing projects and advises avoiding platforms like Reddit and Hacker News to maintain focus. Axiom (https://axiom.co/) Follow Axiom on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/axiomhq/), X (https://twitter.com/AxiomFM), GitHub (https://github.com/axiomhq), or Discord (https://discord.com/invite/axiom-co). Follow Seif Lotfy on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/seiflotfy/) or X (https://twitter.com/seiflotfy). Visit his website at seif.codes (https://seif.codes/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Seif Lotfy, CTO and Co-Founder of Axiom, the best home for your event data. Seif, thank you for joining me. SEIF: Hey, everybody. Thanks for having me. This is awesome. I love the name of the podcast, given that I used to compete in robotics. VICTORIA: What? All right, we're going to have to talk about that. And I also want to introduce a guest co-host today. Since we're talking about cloud, and observability, and data, I invited Joe Ferris, thoughtbot CTO and Director of Development of our platform engineering team, Mission Control. Welcome, Joe. How are you? JOE: Good, thanks. Good to be back again. VICTORIA: Okay. I am excited to talk to you all about observability. But I need to go back to Seif's comment on competing with robots. Can you tell me a little bit more about what robots you've built in the past? SEIF: I didn't build robots; I used to program them. Remember the Sony AIBOs, where Sony made these dog robots? And we would make them compete. There was an international competition where we made them play soccer, and they had to be completely autonomous. They only communicate via Bluetooth or via wireless protocols. And you only have the camera as your sensor as well as...a chest sensor throws the ball near you, and then yeah, you make them play football against each other, four versus four with a goalkeeper and everything. Just look it up: RoboCup AIBO. Look it up on YouTube. And I...2008 world champion with the German team. VICTORIA: That sounds incredible. What kind of crowds are you drawing out for a robot soccer match? Is that a lot of people involved with that? SEIF: You would be surprised how big the RoboCup competition is. It's ridiculous. VICTORIA: I want to go. I'm ready. I want to, like, I'll look it up and find out when the next one is. SEIF: No more Sony robots but other robots. Now, there's two-legged robots. So, they make them play as two-legged robots, much slower than four-legged robots, but works. VICTORIA: Wait. So, the robots you were playing soccer with had four legs they were running around on? SEIF: Yeah, they were dogs [laughter]. VICTORIA: That's awesome. SEIF: We all get the same robot. It's just a competition on software, right? On a software level. And some other competitions within the RoboCup actually use...you build your own robot and stuff like that. But this one was...it's called the Standard League, where we all have a robot, and we have to program it. JOE: And the standard robot was a dog. SEIF: Yeah, I think back then...we're talking...it's been a long time. I think it started in 2001 or something. I think the competition started in 2001 or 2002. And I compete from 2006 to 2008. Robots back then were just, you know, simple. VICTORIA: Robots today are way too complicated [laughs]. SEIF: Even AI is more complicated. VICTORIA: That's right. Yeah, everything has gotten a lot more complicated [laughs]. I'm so curious how you went from being a world-champion robot dog soccer player [laughs] programmer [laughs] to where you are today with Axiom. Can you tell me a little bit more about your journey? SEIF: The journey is interesting because it came from open source. I used to do open source on the side a lot–part of the GNOME Project. That's where I met Neil and the rest of my team, Mikkel Kamstrup, the whole crowd, basically. We worked on GNOME. We worked on Ubuntu. Like, most of them were working professionally on it. I was working for another company, but we worked on the same project. We ended up at Xamarin, which was bought by Microsoft. And then we ended up doing Axiom. But we've been around each other professionally since 2009, most of us. It's like a little family. But how we ended up exactly in observability, I think it's just trying to fix pain points in my life. VICTORIA: Yeah, I was reading through the docs on Axiom. And there's an interesting point you make about organizations having to choose between how much data they have and how much they want to spend on it. So, maybe you can tell me a little bit more about that pain point and what you really found in the early stages that you wanted to solve. SEIF: So, the early stages of what we wanted to solve we were mainly dealing with...so, the early, early stage, we were actually trying to be a Datadog competitor, where we were going to be self-hosted. Eventually, we focused on logs because we found out that's what was a big problem for most people, just event data, not just metric but generally event data, so logs, traces, et cetera. We built out our own logs database completely from scratch. And one of the things we stumbled upon was; basically, you have three things when it comes to logging, which is low cost, low latency, and large scale. That's what everybody wants. But you can't get all three of them; you can only get two of them. And we opted...like, we chose large scale and low cost. And when it comes to latency, we say it should be just fast enough, right? And that's where we focused on, and this is how we started building it. And with that, this is how we managed to stand out by just having way lower cost than anybody else in the industry and dealing with large scale. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And how did you approach making the ingestion pipeline for masses amount of data more efficient? SEIF: Just make it coordination-free as possible, right? And get rid of Kafka because Kafka just, you know, drains your...it's where you throw in money. Like maintaining Kafka...it's like back then Elasticsearch, right? Elasticsearch was the biggest part of your infrastructure that would cost money. Now, it's also Kafka. So, we found a way to have our own internal way of queueing things without having to rely on Kafka. As I said, we wrote everything from scratch to make it work. Like, every now and then, I think that we can spin this out of the company and make it a new product. But now, eyes on the prize, right? JOE: It's interesting to hear that somebody who spent so much time in the open-source community ended up rolling their own solution to so many problems. Do you feel like you had some lessons learned from open source that led you to reject solutions like Kafka, or how did that journey go? SEIF: I don't think I'm rejecting Kafka. The problem is how Kafka is built, right? Kafka is still...you have to set up all these servers. They have to communicate, et cetera, etcetera. They didn't build it in a way where it's stateless, and that's what we're trying to go to. We're trying to make things as stateless as possible. So, Kafka was never built for the cloud-native era. And you can't really rely on SQS or something like that because it won't deal with this high throughput. So, that's why I said, like, we will sacrifice some latency, but at least the cost is low. So, if messages show after half a second or a second, I'm good. It doesn't have to be real-time for me. So, I had to write a couple of these things. But also, it doesn't mean that we reject open source. Like, we actually do like open source. We open-source a couple of libraries. We contribute back to open source, right? We needed a solution back then for that problem, and we couldn't find any. And maybe one day, open source will have, right? JOE: Yeah. I was going to ask if you considered open-sourcing any of your high latency, high throughput solutions. SEIF: Not high latency. You make it sound bad. JOE: [laughs] SEIF: You make it sound bad. It's, like, fast enough, right? I'm not going to compete on milliseconds because, also, I'm competing with ClickHouse. I don't want to compete with ClickHouse. ClickHouse is low latency and large scale, right? But then the cost is, you know, off the charts a bit sometimes. I'm going the other route. Like, you know, it's fast enough. Like, how, you know, if it's under two, three seconds, everybody's happy, right? If the results come within two, three seconds, everybody is happy. If you're going to build a real-time trading system on top of it, I'll strongly advise against that. But if you're building, you know, you're looking at dashboards, you're more in the observability field, yeah, we're good. VICTORIA: Yeah, I'm curious what you found, like, which customer personas that market really resonated with. Like, is there a particular, like, industry type where you're noticing they really want to lower their cost, and they're okay with this just fast enough latency? SEIF: Honestly, with the current recession, everybody is okay with giving up some of the speed to reduce the money because I think it's not linear reduction. It's more exponential reduction at this point, right? You give up a second, and you're saving 30%. You give up two seconds, all of a sudden, you're saving 80%. So, I'd say in the beginning, everybody thought they need everything to be very, very fast. And now they're realizing, you know, with limitations you have around your budget and spending, you're like, okay, I'm okay with the speed. And, again, we're not slow. I'm just saying people realize they don't need everything under a second. They're okay with waiting for two seconds. VICTORIA: That totally resonates with me. And I'm curious if you can add maybe a non-technical or a real-life example of, like, how this impacts the operations of a company or organization, like, if you can give us, like, a business-y example of how this impacts how people work. SEIF: I don't know how, like, how do people work on that? Nothing changed, really. They're still doing the, like...really nothing because...and that aspect is you run a query, and, again, as I said, you're not getting the result in a second. You're just waiting two seconds or three seconds, and it's there. So, nothing really changed. I think people can wait three seconds. And we're still like–when I say this, we're still faster than most others. We're just not as fast as people who are trying to compete on a millisecond level. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's okay. Maybe I'll take it back even, like, a step further, right? Like, our audience is really sometimes just founders who almost have no formal technical training or background. So, when we talk about observability, sometimes people who work in DevOps and operations all understand it and kind of know why it's important [laughs] and what we're talking about. So, maybe you could, like, go back to -- SEIF: Oh, if you're asking about new types of people who've been using it -- VICTORIA: Yeah. Like, if you're going to explain to, like, a non-technical founder, like, why your product is important, or, like, how people in their organization might use it, what would you say? SEIF: Oh, okay, if you put it like that. It's more of if you have data, timestamp data, and you want to run analytics on top of it, so that could be transactions, that could be web vitals, rather than count every time somebody visits, you have a timestamp. So, you can count, like, how many visitors visited the website and what, you know, all these kinds of things. That's where you want to use something like Axiom. That's outside the DevOps space, of course. And in DevOps space, there's so many other things you use Axiom for, but that's outside the DevOps space. And we actually...we implemented as zero-config integration with Vercel that kind of went viral. And we were, for a while, the number one enterprise for self-integration because so many people were using it. So, Vercel users are usually not necessarily writing the most complex backends, but a lot of things are happening on the front-end side of things. And we would be giving them dashboards, automated dashboards about, you know, latencies, and how long a request took, and how long the response took, and the content type, and the status codes, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a huge user base around that. VICTORIA: I like that. And it's something, for me, you know, as a managing director of our platform engineering team, I want to talk more to founders about. It's great that you put this product and this app out into the world. But how do you know that people are actually using it? How do you know that people, like, maybe, are they all quitting after the first day and not coming back to your app? Or maybe, like, the page isn't loading or, like, it's not working as they expected it to. And, like, if you don't have anything observing what users are doing in your app, then it's going to be hard to show that you're getting any traction and know where you need to go in and make corrections and adjust. SEIF: We have two ways of doing this. Right now, internally, we use our own tools to see, like, who is sending us data. We have a deployment that's monitoring production deployment. And we're just, you know, seeing how people are using it, how much data they're sending every day, who stopped sending data, who spiked in sending data sets, et cetera. But we're using Mixpanel, and Dominic, our Head of Product, implemented a couple of key metrics to that for that specifically. So, we know, like, what's the average time until somebody starts going from building its own queries with the builder to writing APL, or how long it takes them from, you know, running two queries to five queries. And, you know, we just start measuring these things now. And it's been going...we've been growing healthy around that. So, we tend to measure user interaction, but also, we tend to measure how much data is being sent. Because let's keep in mind, usually, people go in and check for things if there's a problem. So, if there's no problem, the user won't interact with us much unless there's a notification that kicks off. We also just check, like, how much data is being sent to us the whole time. VICTORIA: That makes sense. Like, you can't just rely on, like, well, if it was broken, they would write a [chuckles], like, a question or something. So, how do you get those metrics and that data around their interactions? So, that's really interesting. So, I wonder if we can go back and talk about, you know, we already mentioned a little bit about, like, the early days of Axiom and how you got started. Was there anything that you found in the early discovery process that was surprising and made you pivot strategy? SEIF: A couple of things. Basically, people don't really care about the tech as much as they care [inaudible 12:51] and the packaging, so that's something that we had to learn. And number two, continuous feedback. Continuous feedback changed the way we worked completely, right? And, you know, after that, we had a Slack channel, then we opened a Discord channel. And, like, this continuous feedback coming in just helps with iterating, helps us with prioritizing, et cetera. And that changed the way we actually developed product. VICTORIA: You use Slack and Discord? SEIF: No. No Slack anymore. We had a community Slack. We had a community [inaudible 13:19] Slack. Now, there's no community Slack. We only have a community Discord. And the community Slack is...sorry, internally, we use Slack, but there's a community Discord for the community. JOE: But how do you keep that staffed? Is it, like, everybody is in the Discord during working hours? Is it somebody's job to watch out for community questions? SEIF: I think everybody gets involved now just...and you can see it. If you go on our Discord, you will just see it. Just everyone just gets involved. I think just people are passionate about what they're doing. At least most people are involved on Discord, right? Because there's, like, Discord the help sections, and people are just asking questions and other people answering. And now, we reached a point where people in the community start answering the questions for other people in the community. So, that's how we see it's starting to become a healthy community, et cetera. But that is one of my favorite things: when I see somebody from the community answering somebody else, that's a highlight for me. Actually, we hired somebody from that community because they were so active. JOE: Yeah, I think one of the biggest signs that a product is healthy is when there's a healthy ecosystem building up around it. SEIF: Yeah, and Discord reminds me of the old days of open sources like IRC, just with memes now. But because all of us come from the old IRC days, being on Discord and chatting around, et cetera, et cetera, just gives us this momentum back, gave us this momentum back, whereas Slack always felt a bit too businessy to me. JOE: Slack is like IRC with emoji. Discord is IRC with memes. SEIF: I would say Slack reminds me somehow of MSN Messenger, right? JOE: I feel like there's a huge slam on MSN Messenger here. SEIF: [laughs] What do you guys use internally, Slack or? I think you're using Slack, right? Or Teams. Don't tell me you're using Teams. JOE: No, we're using Slack. SEIF: Okay, good, because I shit talk. Like, there is this, I'll sh*t talk here–when I start talking about Teams, so...I remember that one thing Google did once, and that failed miserably. JOE: Google still has, like, seven active chat products. SEIF: Like, I think every department or every, like, group of engineers just uses one of them internally. I'm not sure. Never got to that point. But hey, who am I to judge? VICTORIA: I just feel like I end up using all of them, and then I'm just rotating between different tabs all day long. You maybe talked me into using Discord. I feel like I've been resisting it, but you got me with the memes. SEIF: Yeah, it's definitely worth it. It's more entertaining. More noise, but more entertaining. You feel it's alive, whereas Slack is...also because there's no, like, history is forever. So, you always go back, and you're like, oh my God, what the hell is this? VICTORIA: Yeah, I have, like, all of them. I'll do anything. SEIF: They should be using Axiom in the background. Just send data to Axiom; we can keep your chat history. VICTORIA: Yeah, maybe. I'm so curious because, you know, you mentioned something about how you realized that it didn't matter really how cool the tech was if the product packaging wasn't also appealing to people. Because you seem really excited about what you've built. So, I'm curious, so just tell us a little bit more about how you went about trying to, like, promote this thing you built. Or was, like, the continuous feedback really early on, or how did that all kind of come together? SEIF: The continuous feedback helped us with performance, but actually getting people to sign up and pay money it started early on. But with Vercel, it kind of skyrocketed, right? And that's mostly because we went with the whole zero-config approach where it's just literally two clicks. And all of a sudden, Vercel is sending your data to Axiom, and that's it. We will create [inaudible 16:33]. And we worked very closely with Vercel to do this, to make this happen, which was awesome. Like, yeah, hats off to them. They were fantastic. And just two clicks, three clicks away, and all of a sudden, we created Axiom organization for you, the data set for you. And then we're sending it...and the data from Vercel is being forwarded to it. I think that packaging was so simple that it made people try it out quickly. And then, the experience of actually using Axiom was sticky, so they continued using it. And then the price was so low because we give 500 gigs for free, right? You send us 500 gigs a month of logs for free, and we don't care. And you can start off here with one terabyte for 25 bucks. So, people just start signing up. Now, before that, it was five terabytes a month for $99, and then we changed the plan. But yeah, it was cheap enough, so people just start sending us more and more and more data eventually. They weren't thinking...we changed the way people start thinking of “what am I going to send to Axiom” or “what am I going to send to my logs provider or log storage?” To how much more can I send? And I think that's what we wanted to reach. We wanted people to think, how much more can I send? JOE: You mentioned latency and cost. I'm curious about...the other big challenge we've seen with observability platforms, including logs, is cardinality of labels. Was there anything you had to sacrifice upfront in terms of cardinality to manage either cost or volume? SEIF: No, not really. Because the way we designed it was that we should be able to deal with high cardinality from scratch, right? I mean, there's open-source ways of doing, like, if you look at how, like, a column store, if you look at a column store and every dimension is its own column, it's just that becomes, like, you can limit on the amount of columns you're creating, but you should never limit on the amount of different values in a column could be. So, if you're having something like stat tags, right? Let's say hosting, like, hostname should be a column, but then the different hostnames you have, we never limit that. So, the cardinality on a value is something that is unlimited for us, and we don't really see it in cost. It doesn't really hit us on cost. It reflects a bit on compression if you get into technical details of that because, you know, high cardinality means a lot of different data. So, compression is harder, but it's not repetitive. But then if you look at, you know, oh, I want to send a lot of different types of fields, not values with fields, so you have hostname, and latency, and whatnot, et cetera, et cetera, yeah, that's where limitation starts because then they have...it's like you're going to a wide range of...and a wider dimension. But even that, we, yeah, we can deal with thousands at this point. And we realize, like, most people will not need more than three or four. It's like a Postgres table. You don't need more than 3,000 to 4000 columns; else, you know, you're doing a lot. JOE: I think it's actually pretty compelling in terms of cost, though. Like, that's one of the things we've had to be most careful about in terms of containing cost for metrics and logs is, a lot of providers will...they'll either charge you based on the number of unique metric combinations or the performance suffers greatly. Like, we've used a lot of Prometheus-based solutions. And so, when we're working with developers, even though they don't need more than, you know, a few dozen metric combinations most of the time, it's hard for people to think of what they need upfront. It's much easier after you deploy it to be able to query your data and slice it retroactively based on what you're seeing. SEIF: That's the detail. When you say we're using Prometheus, a lot of the metrics tools out there are using, just like Prometheus, are using the Gorilla data structure. And the real data structure was never designed to deal with high cardinality labels. So, basically, to put it in a simple way, every combination of tags you send for metrics is its own file on disk. That's, like, the very simple way of explaining this. And then, when you're trying to search through everything, right? And you have a lot of these combinations. I actually have to get all these files from this conversion back together, you know, and then they're chunked, et cetera. So, it's a problem. Generally, how metrics are doing it...most metrics products are using it, even VictoriaMetrics, et cetera. What they're doing is they're using either the Prometheus TSDB data structure, which is based on Gorilla. Influx was doing the same thing. They pivoted to using more and more like the ones we use, and Honeycomb uses, right? So, we might not be as fast on metrics side as these highly optimized. But then when it comes to high [inaudible 20:49], once we start dealing with high cardinality, we will be faster than those solutions. And that's on a very technical level. JOE: That's pretty cool. I realize we're getting pretty technical here. Maybe it's worth defining cardinality for the audience. SEIF: Defining cardinality to the...I mean, we just did that, right? JOE: What do you think, Victoria? Do you know what cardinality is now? [laughs] VICTORIA: All right. Now I'm like, do I know? I was like, I think I know what it means. Cardinality is, like, let's say you have a piece of data like an event or a transaction. SEIF: It's like the distinct count on a property that gives you the cardinality of a property. VICTORIA: Right. It's like how many pieces of information you have about that one event, basically, yeah. JOE: But with some traditional metrics stores, it's easy to make mistakes. For example, you could have unbounded cardinality by including response time as one of the labels -- SEIF: Tags. JOE: And then it's just going to -- SEIF: Oh, no, no. Let me give you a better one. I put in timestamp at some point in my life. JOE: Yeah, I feel like everybody has done that one. [laughter] SEIF: I've put a system timestamp at some point in my life. There was the actual timestamp, and there was a system timestamp that I would put because I wanted to know when the...because I couldn't control the timestamp, and the only timestamp I had was a system timestamp. I would always add the actual timestamp of when that event actually happened into a metric, and yeah, that did not scale. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: Yeah. I wonder if you could maybe share, like, a story about when it's gone wrong, and you've suddenly charged a lot of money [laughs] just to get information about what's happening in the system. Any, like, personal experiences with observability that kind of informed what you did with Axiom? SEIF: Oof, I have a very bad one, like, a very, very bad one. I used to work for a company. We had to deploy Elasticsearch on Windows Servers, and it was US-East-1. So, just a combination of Elasticsearch back in 2013, 2014 together with Azure and Windows Server was not a good idea. So, you see where this is going, right? JOE: I see where it's going. SEIF: Eventually, we had, like, we get all these problems because we used Elasticsearch and Kibana as our, you know, observability platform to measure everything around the product we were building. And funny enough, it cost us more than actually maintaining the infrastructure of the product. But not just that, it also kept me up longer because most of the downtimes I would get were not because of the product going down. It's because my Elasticsearch cluster started going down, and there's reasons for that. Because back then, Microsoft Azure thought that it's okay for any VM to lose connection with the rest of the VMs for 30 seconds per day. And then, all of a sudden, you have Elasticsearch with a split-brain problem. And there was a phase where I started getting alerted so much that back then, my partner threatened to leave me. So I bought a...what I think was a shock bracelet or a shock collar via Bluetooth, and I connected it to phone for any notification. And I bought that off Alibaba, by the way. And I would charge it at night, put it on my wrist, and go to sleep. And then, when alert happens, it will fully discharge the battery on me every time. JOE: Okay, I have to admit, I did not see where that was going. SEIF: Yeah, did that for a while; definitely did not save my relationship either. But eventually, that was the point where, you know, we started looking into other observability tools like Datadog, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where the actual journey began, where we moved away from Elasticsearch and Kibana to look for something, okay, that we don't have to maintain ourselves and we can use, et cetera. So, it's not about the costs as much; it was just pain. VICTORIA: Yeah, pain is a real pain point, actual physical [chuckles] and emotional pain point [laughter]. What, like, motivates you to keep going with Axiom and to keep, like, the wind in your sails to keep working on it? SEIF: There's a couple of things. I love working with my team. So, honestly, I just wake up, and I compliment my team. I just love working with them. They're a lot of fun to work with. And they challenge me, and I challenge them back. And I upset them a lot. And they can't upset me, but I upset them. But I love working with them, and I love working with that team. And the other thing is getting, like, having this constant feedback from customers just makes you want to do more and, you know, close sales, et cetera. It's interesting, like, how I'm a very technical person, and I'm more interested in sales because sales means your product works, the product, the technical parts, et cetera. Because if technically it's not working, you can't build a product on top of it. And if you're not selling it, then what's the point? You only sell when the product is good, more or less, unless you're Oracle. VICTORIA: I had someone ask me about Oracle recently, actually. They're like, "Are you considering going back to it?" And I'm maybe a little allergic to it from having a federal consulting background [laughs]. But maybe they'll come back around. I don't know. We'll see. SEIF: Did you sell your soul back then? VICTORIA: You know, I feel like I just grew up in a place where that's what everyone did was all. SEIF: It was Oracle, IBM, or HP back in the day. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, basically, when you're working on applications that were built in, like, the '80s, Oracle was, like, this hot, new database technology [laughs] that they just got five years ago. So, that's just, yeah, interesting. SEIF: Although, from a database perspective, they did a lot of the innovations. A lot of first innovations could have come from Oracle. From a technical perspective, they're ridiculous. I'm not sure from a product perspective how good they are. But I know their sales team is so big, so huge. They don't care about the product anymore. They can still sell. VICTORIA: I think, you know, everything in tech is cyclical. So, you know, if they have the right strategy and they're making some interesting changes over there, there's always a chance [laughs]. Certain use cases, I mean, I think that's the interesting point about working in technology is that you know, every company is a tech company. And so, there's just a lot of different types of people, personas, and use cases for different types of products. So, I wonder, you know, you kind of mentioned earlier that, like, everyone is interested in Axiom. But, you know, I don't know, are you narrowing the market? Or, like, how are you trying to kind of focus your messaging and your sales for Axiom? SEIF: I'm trying to focus on developers. So, we're really trying to focus on developers because the experience around observability is crap. It's stupid expensive. Sorry for being straightforward, right? And that's what we're trying to change. And we're targeting developers mainly. We want developers to like us. And we'll find all these different types of developers who are using it, and that's the interesting thing. And because of them, we start adding more and more features, like, you know, we added tracing, and now that enables, like, billions of events pushed through for, you know, again, for almost no money, again, $25 a month for a terabyte of data. And we're doing this with metrics next. And that's just to address the developers who have been giving us feedback and the market demand. I will sum it up, again, like, the experience is crap, and it's stupid expensive. I think that's the [inaudible 28:07] of observability is just that's how I would sum it up. VICTORIA: If you could go back in time and talk to yourself when you were still a developer, now that you're CTO, what advice would you give yourself? JOE: Besides avoiding shock collars. VICTORIA: [laughs] Yes. SEIF: Get people's feedback quickly so you know you're on the right track. I think that's very, very, very, very important. Don't just work in the dark, or don't go too long into stealth mode because, eventually, people catch up. Also, ship when you're 80% ready because 100% is too late. I think it's the same thing here. JOE: Ship often and early. SEIF: Yeah, even if it's not fully ready, it's still feedback. VICTORIA: Ship often and early and talk to people [laughs]. Just, do you feel like, as a developer, did you have the skills you needed to be able to get the most out of those feedback and out of those conversations you were having with people around your product? SEIF: I still don't think I'm good enough. You're just constantly learning, right? I just accepted I'm part of a team, and I have my contributions. But as an individual, I still don't think I know enough. I think there's more I need to learn at this point. VICTORIA: I wonder, what questions do you have for me or Joe? SEIF: How did you start your podcast, and why the name? VICTORIA: Oh, man, I hope I can answer. So, the podcast was started...I think it's, like, we're actually about to be at our 500th Episode. So, I've only been a host for the last year. Maybe Joe even knows more than I do. But what I recall is that one person at thoughtbot thought it would be a great idea to start a podcast, and then they did it. And it seems like the whole company is obsessed with robots. I'm not really sure where that came from. There used to be a tiny robot in the office, is what I remember. And people started using that as, like, the mascot. And then, yeah, that's it, that's the whole thing. SEIF: Was the robot doing anything useful or just being cute? JOE: It was just cute, and it's hard to make a robot cute. SEIF: Was it a real robot, or was it like a -- JOE: No, there was, at one point, a toy robot. The name...I actually forget the origin–origin of the name, but the name Giant Robots comes from our blog. So, we named the podcast the same as the blog: Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. SEIF: Yes, it's called transformers. VICTORIA: Yeah, I like it. It's, I mean, now I feel like -- SEIF: [laughs] VICTORIA: We got to get more, like, robot dogs involved [laughs] in the podcast. SEIF: Like, I wanted to add one thing when we talked about, you know, what gets me going. And I want to mention that I have a six-month-old son now. He definitely adds a lot of motivation for me to wake up in the morning and work. But he also makes me wake up regardless if I want to or not. VICTORIA: Yeah, you said you had invented an alarm clock that never turns off. Never snoozes [laughs]. SEIF: Yes, absolutely. VICTORIA: I have the same thing, but it's my dog. But he does snooze, actually. He'll just, like, get tired and go back to sleep [laughs]. SEIF: Oh, I have a question. Do dogs have a Tamagotchi phase? Because, like, my son, the first three months was like a Tamagotchi. It was easy to read him. VICTORIA: Oh yeah, uh-huh. SEIF: Noisy but easy. VICTORIA: Yes, yes. SEIF: Now, it's just like, yeah, I don't know, like, the last month he has opinions at six months. I think it's because I raised him in Europe. I should take him back to the Middle East [laughs]. No opinions. VICTORIA: No, dogs totally have, like, a communication style, you know, I pretty much know what he, I mean, I can read his mind, obviously [laughs]. SEIF: Sure, but that's when they grow a bit. But what when they were very...when the dog was very young? VICTORIA: Yeah, they, I mean, they also learn, like, your stuff, too. So, they, like, learn how to get you to do stuff or, like, I know she'll feed me if I'm sitting here [laughs]. SEIF: And how much is one dog year, seven years? VICTORIA: Seven years. SEIF: Seven years? VICTORIA: Yeah, seven years? SEIF: Yeah. So, basically, in one year, like, three months, he's already...in one month, he's, you know, seven months old. He's like, yeah. VICTORIA: Yeah. In a year, they're, like, teenagers. And then, in two years, they're, like, full adults. SEIF: Yeah. So, the first month is basically going through the first six months of a human being. So yeah, you pass...the first two days or three days are the Tamagotchi phase that I'm talking about. VICTORIA: [chuckles] I read this book, and it was, like, to understand dogs, it's like, they're just like humans that are trying to, like, maximize the number of positive experiences that they have. So, like, if you think about that framing around all your interactions about, like, maybe you're trying to get your son to do something, you can be like, okay, how do I, like, I don't know, train him that good things happen when he does the things I want him to do? [laughs] That's kind of maybe manipulative but effective. So, you're not learning baby sign language? You're just, like, going off facial expressions? SEIF: I started. I know how Mama looks like. I know how Dada looks like. I know how more looks like, slowly. And he already does this thing that I know that when he's uncomfortable, he starts opening and closing his hands. And when he's completely uncomfortable and basically that he needs to go sleep, he starts pulling his own hair. VICTORIA: [laughs] I do the same thing [laughs]. SEIF: You pull your own hair when you go to sleep? I don't have that. I don't have hair. VICTORIA: I think I do start, like, touching my head though, yeah [inaudible 33:04]. SEIF: Azure took the last bit of hair I had! Went away with Azure, Elasticsearch, and the shock collar. VICTORIA: [laughs] SEIF: I have none of them left. Absolutely nothing. I should sue Elasticsearch for this shit. VICTORIA: [laughs] Let me know how that goes. Maybe there's more people who could join your lawsuit, you know, with a class action. SEIF: [laughs] Yeah. Well, one thing I wanted to also just highlight is, right now, one of the things that also makes the company move forward is we realized that in a single domain, we proved ourselves very valuable to specific companies, right? So, that was a big, big thing, milestone for us. And now we're trying to move into a handful of domains and see which one of those work out the best for us. Does that make sense? VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious: what are the biggest challenges or hurdles that you associate with that? SEIF: At this point, you don't want just feedback. You want constructive criticism. Like, you want to work with people who will criticize the applic...and you iterate with them based on this criticism, right? They're just not happy about you and trying to create design partners. So, for us, it was very important to have these small design partners who can work with us to actually prove ourselves as valuable in a single domain. Right now, we need to find a way to scale this across several domains. And how do you do that without sacrificing? Like, how do you open into other domains without sacrificing the original domain you came from? So, there's a lot of things [inaudible 34:28]. And we are in the middle of this. Honestly, I Forrest Gumped my way through half of this, right? Like, I didn't know what I was doing. I had ideas. I think it's more of luck at this point. And I had luck. No, we did work. We did work a lot. We did sleepless nights and everything. But I think, in the last three years, we became more mature and started thinking more about product. And as I said, like, our CEO, Neil, and Dominic, our head of product, are putting everything behind being a product-led organization, not just a tech-led organization. VICTORIA: That's super interesting. I love to hear that that's the way you're thinking about it. JOE: I was just curious what other domains you're looking at pushing into if you can say. SEIF: So, we are going to start moving into ETL a bit more. We're trying to see how we can fit in specific ML scenarios. I can't say more about the other, though. JOE: Do you think you'll take the same approaches in terms of value proposition, like, low cost, good enough latency? SEIF: Yes, that's definitely one thing. But there's also...so, this is the values we're bringing to the customer. But also, now, our internal values are different. Now it's more of move with urgency and high velocity, as we said before, right? Think big, work small. The values in terms of values we're going to take to the customers it's the same ones. And maybe we'll add some more, but it's still going to be low-cost and large-scale. And, internally, we're just becoming more, excuse my French, agile. I hate that word so much. Should be good with Scrum. VICTORIA: It's painful, but everyone knows what you're talking about [laughs], you know, like -- SEIF: See, I have opinions here about Scrum. I think Scrum should be only used in terms of iceScrum [inaudible 36:04], or something like that. VICTORIA: Oh no [laughter]. Well, it's a Rugby term, right? Like, that's where it should probably stay. SEIF: I did not know it's a rugby term. VICTORIA: Yeah, so it should stay there, but -- SEIF: Yes [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yeah, I think it's interesting. Yeah, I like the being flexible. I like the just, like, continuous feedback and how you all have set up to, like, talk with your customers. Because you mentioned earlier that, like, you might open source some of your projects. And I'm just curious, like, what goes into that decision for you when you're going to do that? Like, what makes you think this project would be good for open source or when you think, actually, we need to, like, keep it? SEIF: So, we open source libraries, right? We actually do that already. And some other big organizations use our libraries; even our competitors use our libraries, that we do. The whole product itself or at least a big part of the product, like database, I'm not sure we're going to open source that, at least not anytime soon. And if we open source, it's going to be at a point where the value-add it brings is nothing compared to how well our product is, right? So, if we can replace whatever's at the back with...the storage engine we have in the back with something else and the product doesn't get affected, that's when we open source it. VICTORIA: That's interesting. That makes sense to me. But yeah, thank you for clarifying that. I just wanted to make sure to circle back. Since you have this big history in open source, yeah, I'm curious if you see... SEIF: Burning me out? VICTORIA: Burning you out, yeah [laughter]. Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, like, because, you know, we're about to be in October here. Do you have any advice or strategies as a maintainer for not getting burned out during the next couple of weeks besides, like, hide in a cave and without internet access [laughs]? SEIF: Stay away from Reddit and Hacker News. That's my goal for October now because I'm always afraid of getting too attached to an idea, or too motivated, or excited by an idea that I drift away from what I am actually supposed to be doing. VICTORIA: Last question is, is there anything else you would like to promote? SEIF: Yeah, check out our website; I think it's at axiom.co. Check it out. Sign up. And comment on Discord and talk to me. I don't bite, sometimes grumpy, but that's just because of lack of sleep in the morning. But, you know, around midday, I'm good. And if you're ever in Berlin and you want to hang out, I'm more than willing to hang out. VICTORIA: Whoo, that's awesome. Yeah, Berlin is great. I was there a couple of years ago but no plans to go back anytime soon, but maybe I'll keep that in mind. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. And this podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guests: Joe Ferris and Seif Lotfy.

Kendall Miller is the Co-Founder and COO of CTO Lunches, a network of engineering leaders to get trusted advice and connections. The first half of the conversation with host Victoria Guido and special guest host, Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot revolves around the use, adoption, and growth of Kubernetes within the technology industry. The discussion explores Kubernetes' history, influence, and its comparison with other platforms like Heroku and WordPress, emphasizing its adaptability and potential. The second half focuses on more practical aspects of Kubernetes, including its adoption and scalability. It centers on the appropriateness of adopting Kubernetes for different projects and how it can future-proof infrastructure. The importance of translating technical language into business speak is emphasized to influence executives and others in the decision-making process and Kendall also discuss communication and empathy in tech, particularly the skill of framing questions and understanding others' emotional states. __ CTO Lunches (http://ctolunches.com/) Follow CTO Lunches on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/ctolunches/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/cto_lunches). Follow Kendall Miller on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kendallamiller/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Kendall Miller, Co-Founder and COO of CTO Lunches, a network of engineering leaders to get trusted advice and connections. Kendall, thank you for joining me. KENDALL: Thanks for having me. I'm excited. VICTORIA: And today, we have a special guest host, Joe Ferris, CTO of thoughtbot. Joe, thank you for joining us. JOE: Hello there. Thank you for having me. KENDALL: Hi, Joe. Thanks for being here. It's exciting. VICTORIA: Yes. It's so exciting. I think this is going to be a great episode. So, Kendall, I met you at a San Diego CTO lunch recently, and I know that's not the only thing that you do. So, you're also an advisor, a board member, and CXO. So, maybe tell us a little bit more about your background. KENDALL: Gosh, my background is complicated. I've been involved in tech for a very long time. In college, I worked for a company that started Twitter about five years too soon, and then worked in the nonprofit space in China for ten years, then came back, got back involved in tech. Today, I'm usually the business guy. So, when technical founders start technical products and want help turning them into successful technical businesses, that's when they call me. So, I have the technical background. I have never been paid to write code, which is probably a good thing. But I can hang in the technical conversations for the most part, but I'm much more interested in the business side and the people leadership side of business. So that tends to be where I play. Every organization hires me to do something different. VICTORIA: Thank you for that. And I'm just curious about the CTO Lunches. Just tell me a little bit more about that. And what's the idea behind it that led you to co-found it? KENDALL: CTO Lunches has actually been around for about eight years. And I didn't start the initial incarnation of it. It was two people that got us started, and I was trying to hire one of them; one thing led to another. Actually, originally, they did not want me to join. I think, at the time, my title was COO at a company that I was working with. About six months later, I took over engineering as VP of engineering, and then they're like, you can join the group now. We're less strict about that [laughs] now. Although it is highly focused on senior engineering leaders, it's not exclusively CTOs. But the group's been in place for a very long time, just intended as a place to network, have conversation with people who are in that senior-most technical position at technical organization. So, the CTO role is a lonely role. CTOs get fired all the time. There's not a technical person at the company that doesn't think they can do the job better than them. So, the CTO is always getting feedback. You're doing this wrong. The trade-offs you're making are wrong. This isn't going where it should be going. We should automate that. Why haven't we automated that? We should switch to this other tool. I've used it before; it's 100 times better. Joe, let me know if I'm getting any of this wrong. But that's the experience that I've had. Having a place where people can get together and, you know, half the time just complain to each other, hey, this is hard, is really why the networking group exists. So, it's a listserv. And there are local lunches that started in Boulder, Colorado. It's gotten pretty global. About a year ago, a little over a year ago, I was talking with one of the people who'd gotten it started. I've been involved in the Denver chapter for most of those eight years. And I was suggesting to him that he change a few things about it, to monetize it so that he could invest in it further. And he came back a few months later and said, "I want to take your advice and do this, but I want you to come do it with me." So, we founded the company officially...I think in December is when paperwork went into place. And we started investing in it a little bit more heavily. I was living in Europe last year, so we went and put on lunches in Paris, and Lisbon, and London, and, gosh, all over the place. I'm sure I'm missing some, Amsterdam. But there's been chapters all over the U.S. and a couple of other parts of the world for a long time. VICTORIA: That reflects my experience attending a CTO lunch. It's just very casual, like, just get together and eat food and talk about what you've worked on recently, issues you're having, just get ideas and make some friends. So, I really appreciated the group, and I'm going to personally plug the San Diego Chapter has picked up again. And we're meeting next Friday down in Del Mar. And we're going to be meeting on the last Friday of every month through October. So, I'm super excited to be a part of the group. And Joe, yeah, I'm curious about your perspective. As a CTO with thoughtbot, just what are your thoughts about that kind of thing? KENDALL: Yeah. How right am I about how lonely you are, Joe? JOE: [laughs] You know, I've been lonelier since we went remote. I used to work in the office, and I was a CTO, but also, I had lunch with people, which was nice. So, I'm lonelier. But yeah, I think everybody needs a group like that, like, senior developer therapy just to talk about your woes together, drown your sorrows. KENDALL: Well, I think years ago, I heard that CTOs are the most fired C-level executive. JOE: You're making me nervous now. KENDALL: [laughs] You've been there a long time, Joe. I know you've been there a long time. If you haven't been fired yet, you probably got a little while longer in you. This will be really awkward if it's published and you've already been fired. VICTORIA: We can always edit that out afterwards. [laughter] KENDALL: Yeah, no, I think it is a particularly lonely position. And, again, I think a lot of it is the average engineer in a technical company doesn't look at the COO or the CFO or even the CEO and think I could do that. But they're all looking at the CTO and thinking, what does that person do that I can't do? It's ridiculous because most of them would make terrible CTOs because it does require some of the business sense. Or, you know, right out of the gate, they might make terrible CTOs. It actually is quite a skill to be the most technical person and speak the business language. I mean, am I right about that, Joe? Like, was that hard for you to learn? JOE: Yeah, I definitely think...so, my background is also technical. I have a background in consulting. So, I always did a lot of metaprogramming, if you will. But making that transition to thinking about organizations that way, thinking about how all the other pieces play into it, was a pretty big step for me, even before I became a CTO as a consultant. KENDALL: Well, because you can't just chase the newest, hottest technology. You have to make business trade-offs. And not everything can be resume-driven development, right? Even if that technology over there is newer or hotter, it doesn't mean you have a business model that supports it. And it doesn't mean that migrating to it can be done, right? JOE: Yeah. I mean, even beyond choosing technologies, just choosing where to invest in your software stack, like, what needs to be reworked, what doesn't, and trying to explain those trade-offs, I think, is a rare skill. Being able to explain why something would be harder than something else when you're working with the leadership to prioritize a backlog it's a puzzle. KENDALL: Well, and I think when I'm in an executive conversation, and the CTO says, "Here's the thing that I think is the best decision technically, and I think it's the wrong decision for the business because of X, Y, or Z," I'm always super impressed, right? Like, this is the right technical solution for what we want. However, we shouldn't pursue that for business reasons right now. Maybe we can in six months, but right now, we need to prioritize this other thing. I don't know, that's always when I feel like, oh, this person knows what they're doing. JOE: There's nothing more dangerous to software than a bored developer. [laughs] One nice thing about being a consultant is that I don't have to invent problems to solve with technology at my company because sooner or later, I'll run across a company that has those problems, and I'll get to use that technology. But I think a lot of people are mostly happy...they might be happy in their role. They might be happy with our team. But they're very interested in whatever is hot right now, like machine learning, AI. And so, suddenly, that surreptitiously makes its way into the tech stack. And then, years later, it's somebody's problem to maintain. KENDALL: [laughs] Well, I have a specific memory of a firm in New York City that was, you know, this is relevant to y'all as thoughtbot is that, you know, at least historically, it was, to me, the premier Ruby on Rails consulting shop. I think that's still largely y'alls focus. Am I right about that? JOE: We still do a ton of Rails, yeah. KENDALL: Okay. Well, so this organization was all Ruby on Rails. It was a big organization. They had a very large customer base. And they hired a new CTO who came in, told everybody in the company they were stupid, laid off 70% of the engineering organization, and told the CEO he was going to completely rewrite the product from scratch in .NET, and he could do it in three weeks. And I'm pretty sure the business went under about three months later [laughs] because that was just so outrageously nuts to me. JOE: It's too bad he laid everybody off beforehand. I've been in that situation where somebody tells me, "I'm going to rewrite this. It'll be ready in three weeks." And I could fight with them and try and convince them they're wrong. But I feel like somebody who's approaching that with that attitude they're missing all of the nuance and context that would make it possible to explain to them why it's not going to work. And so, it's easier to just say, "You know, take the three weeks. I'll talk to you in three weeks." But if you've already laid off your development team, that's hard [laughs] to recover from. KENDALL: That's exactly right. VICTORIA: There's got to be a name for that kind of CTO who just wants to come in and blow everything up [laughs]. Yeah, so you spend a lot of time talking to different CTOs and doing this social networking aspect. I'm wondering if there's, like, patterns that you see. You've mentioned already one about just, like, the most often getting fired. [laughs] But what are the patterns you see, like, in challenges, and then what makes someone successful in that CTO role? KENDALL: Well, oh gosh, I have so many thoughts about this. First of all, I run into a couple of different categories of CTOs. There's a lot of people who come to CTO Lunches who are small company CTOs. I mean, it makes sense that there's a lot more small company CTOs than there are big company CTOs. But the small company CTO who maybe it's their first gig in the role or they're a serial CTO. There's the fractional CTOs that come that are doing it across several different organizations at the same time, and then there's the big company CTO who shows up. And honestly, all of their problems are very different. The thing that they have in common is even at a very large organization, in that position, they can make a decision that causes the company to go under. So, there is a significant amount of volatility in the amount of power that they wield. So, what's interesting about that is not everybody understands that. And so, first of all, there's the kind of CTO that just doesn't get that, and that doesn't matter if they're fractional, or a small company CTO, or a big company CTO. If they don't understand that, they're going to cause significant problems, right? Like the person I just mentioned who said, "I can just re-platform this in three weeks in .NET." There's that. I mean, I think, as with any senior leadership position, the comfort with volatility, the ability to know what to communicate down versus across and versus up, and then the ability to speak the business language. For everybody, the CFO's job is to communicate the financial needs alongside of the business leads, right? If the CFO's sole goal is to cut costs or make sure we're running as lean as possible, they're a bad CFO. But they're not as good of a CFO as the CFO who can say, "Hey, we're underspending right here. And I can look at the numbers and know we should invest more there. How can we invest more there and invest it well?" And it's the same thing for a technology executive to be able to look at the business context and communicate it back. And there are so many CTOs that I've worked with who they're the most technical person in the room, and they know it. And as a result, they're just a jerk to everyone around them, like, everything you did here was wrong. You know, that's where they fail. And so, if they can communicate the business needs, navigate the volatility, and support a team that's going to make decisions that aren't always the same decision they're going to make, they're going to be successful. Honestly, there's very, very few CTOs that I've met like that. People who are excited to meet you at work, excited to see you succeed, excited to see that you went and built a thing is great. I mean, the reason I was VP of engineering is the CTO that I was working with at the time...it's a terrible story. There was an engineer who had seen something that we were doing on repeat all the time and, in his spare time, spent about 40 hours outside of work, not during work hours, automating this task that we were doing regularly. And it was related to standing up a whole bunch of things in our standard infrastructure. He brings it to the CTO and says, "Look what I built." And the CTO, instead of saying, "Hey, this is incredible. Thank you. This is going to save us a bunch of time. Let's iterate on it. Here's some things I'd like to tweak. Can we bring it in this direction? Can we..." you know, whatever, said, "Why is this in Python? It should be in Ansible," something like that. I can't remember. And the engineer literally burst into tears. [laughs] JOE: Oh my God. KENDALL: [laughs] Well, I mean, yeah, it was like; literally, that's why the CTO stopped managing people that day. There's a lot of examples that I have like that. Joe, I appreciate that your response is, "Oh my God." Because I think there's a lot of people who'd be like, wait, what was wrong with that? Shouldn't it have been in Ansible? JOE: [laughs] Yeah, I've seen CTOs come into primarily two groups. One is the CTO who just tells, you know, like, they make the decisions, and they tell everybody what to do. They obviously don't have all of the information because you can't be in every room all the time. And the other is the CTO, who just wants to be one of the team members and doesn't make any decisions and tries to get people to make decisions collectively on their own without any particular guidance or structure. And finding that middle spot of, like, not just saying, "Hey, everything's in Ansible," allowing for the creativity and initiative, but also coalescing the group into a single direction, I think, is what makes a good CTO. KENDALL: Well, yeah, because the CTO does have to say no, sometimes, right? Like, the best product, people say, "No." Good CTOs say, "No." There is some amount of, hey, I need you to come to me with trade-offs about this. Why are you going to make that decision? And I'm sorry, you still didn't convince me, right? Like, I mean, those are appropriate things to say. But yeah, I'm with you on that. You said they fall into two categories. But you really mean the third and that middle ground. Is it easy for you to walk that middle ground, Joe? JOE: I wouldn't say it's easy. [laughs] KENDALL: Yeah. Well, I'm always nervous to say something. I'm doing well because I know there's a report out there that can point at every time I failed at it, right? So... MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: Yeah, what I'm getting from what you're saying, too, is this communication ability and not just, like, to communicate clearly but with a high level of empathy. So, if you say like, "Well, why is it in Python and not Ansible?" is different than being like, "What makes Python the best solution here?" Like, it's a different way to frame the question that could put someone on the defensive that just really requires, like, a high level of emotional intelligence. And also, if they've just worked, like, an 80-hour week, [laughs] I probably would maybe choose a different time to bring those questions up and notice that they have been burning the candle at both ends and prioritize getting them some rest. So, speaking of, like, communication and getting prioritization for [inaudible 15:34], especially on, like, infrastructure teams, maybe we could talk a little bit about Kubernetes, like, when that comes up as an appropriate solution, and how you talk about it with the business. KENDALL: My background with Kubernetes is long because a company that I still work with, Fairwinds, used to be called ReactiveOps, has been in the Kubernetes space for a very long time. I think we were one of the very first companies working with Kubernetes. It was coming up that people were running into the limits of something like Heroku, right? And I think it's Kelsey Hightower who said every company wants a PaaS. They just want the Paas that they built themselves. And that's really accurate. And I think Kubernetes isn't quite a framework for building your own PaaS or isn't quite a foundation where I think of a foundation for a house. Instead, it's more like rebar and cement and somebody saying, "Good luck, buddy." You know, you still have to know how to put the rebar and cement together to even make the foundation, but it is the building blocks that help get you to a custom-built PaaS. And it's become something that a lot of people have landed on as, you know, the broadly accepted way to build cloud-native infrastructure. The reason I've been in the Kubernetes space and the space that I see Kubernetes still filling is we need to standardize on something. We can choose a cloud provider's PaaS. We can choose a third-party PaaS, or we can standardize on something like Kubernetes. And even though we're not going to migrate from AWS to Azure, the flexibility that Kubernetes gives us as a broadly adopted pattern is going to give us some ability to be future-proofed in our infrastructure in a way that previous stacks were not, you know, it was Puppet, and it was Ansible. And it was SaltStack. And it was all Terraform all the time. I'm not saying those things don't exist anymore. I'm saying Kubernetes kind of has won that battle. Joe, since you're here and I know y'all are doing some Kubernetes work now at thoughtbot, I'm curious if you agree with that characterization. JOE: Yeah, I think that's true. I think it's the center for people to coalesce around. Like, for an effort in the industry to move forward, there needs to be some common language, some common ground. And I think Kubernetes struck the right balance of being abstract. So, you can use it in different environments but still making some decisions, so you don't have to make them all. And so, like, all of the things you had to do with containers like figuring out what your data solution is going to be, what your networking solution is going to be, Kubernetes didn't even really make those decisions. [laughs] They just made a platform where those decisions can be made in a common way. And that allowed the community and the ecosystem to grow. KENDALL: I mean, I think of it a lot like WordPress; you know, WordPress is hated by many. When WordPress came out, it was hot, right? And it was PHP, which everybody was super excited about at the time. Kubernetes is going to reach a point where it's as long in the tooth and terrible as people think WordPress is, but it has become the standard. And the advantage of the standard is you can use the not standard. You can go build a website in Jekyll instead of WordPress, and there's going to be some things that are nicer about Jekyll. But because WordPress is so broadly adopted, there's a plugin for everything. And I think that's where Kubernetes sits is because it's become so widely adopted everybody's building for it. Everybody's adapting for it. If you run into a problem, you're going to find somebody else out there who has that problem. In fact, I think of one organization that I know that was on HashiCorp's Nomad. And they said, "Actually, we think Nomad has better technology through and through. But we think we're the only company at this size and scale using Nomad. And so, when we run into a problem, we can't Google for it. There's no such thing as a plugin that exists to solve this. Nobody has ever run into this before on Nomad. But there's 100 companies dealing with the same problem in Kubernetes, and there's ten solutions." And I think that's the power that it brings. VICTORIA: So, it's not just a trend that CTOs are moving towards, you think. KENDALL: I mean, I think it's already won the battle and the hockey stick of adoption. We're still right at the very bottom of that tick-up because it takes people a long time to adapt new technology like this, especially in their infrastructure. It's a big migration, to move. So, I don't think it's the widely adopted infrastructure technology even yet. I think a lot of the biggest organizations are still running on things that predate Kubernetes. But I think it has won the battle, and it is winning the battle and is going to be the thing going forward, so yeah. JOE: I think it also has a lot of room to grow still. Like, there are other technologies that I used previously, like Docker, and they were a big step up from some of the things I was doing at the time. But you quickly hit the ceiling, or it was, like, I don't know where to go with this next. I don't know what else is going to happen. Whereas with Kubernetes, there are so many directions it can go in. Like, the serverless Kubernetes offerings that are starting to pop up are extremely interesting, where, you know, you don't actually maintain a cluster or anything. You just deploy things to this ethereal cluster that always exists. And so, that sort of combination of platform as a service, function as a service, Kubernetes, as that evolves, I think there are a lot of exciting things that have yet to come in the Kubernetes space. KENDALL: Well, so say more about that, Joe, because I've been going to KubeCon for a very long time, maybe...I don't know if it's 2016 or so when I first went. And it felt for a number of years...maybe those first four-ish years it was always the people at KubeCon were the, like, big dreamers and thinkers and, like, we're here to change the future of cloud infrastructure. And this is going places, and we're excited to be here and be a part of it. And here's what I'm going to do that changes the next thing. And I feel like now if I go to KubeCon, it's a lot of people from, you know, IBM and some big bank that are, like, deep sigh, well, I have to adopt Kubernetes. I need to know what the vendors are. What do you guys do, and how does this work? Can you please teach it to me? Because I'm being told by my boss, I have to do it. I don't see that excitement around Kubernetes anymore. The excitement I see is all around further up the stack, you know, things like Wasm, WebAssembly, or eBPF, the networking things and tracing things that are possible. Maybe that's further down the stack. I guess it depends on how you think about it, but different part of the stack. So, I'm curious, touching on the serverless components of Kubernetes; sure, I get that. And I do think, increasingly, the PaaSs of the future are all going to be Kubernetes-based, whether that's exposed or not. But where are the places that you think it's still going to go? Because I feel like it's already gotten boring, maybe in a positive way. But I don't see the excitement around it like I saw a few years back. And I'm curious what else you think is going to happen. JOE: Yeah, I mean, I don't think I disagree. I think Kubernetes itself, the core concept, is, like, it's still changing. But you're right that the excitement about Kubernetes existing has gone down because it's been there for a while. But I feel like the ecosystem is still growing pretty rapidly. Like, the things you mentioned, like Wasm and Istio, and all the tools in that ecosystem that continue to grow, is where I think the interesting things will happen. Like, it's created this new lower-level layer of abstraction that makes it possible to build concepts and technology that could not have existed before. KENDALL: Yeah, well, and I'm, you know, talking to people who are working really hard at making short-run ephemeral workloads work better on things like GPUs for the sake of AI, right? Like, I mean, there is some really interesting things happening, and people are doing this in Kubernetes. So, I get that. I agree with that. It is interesting that Kubernetes has become sort of the stable thing, and now it's about who can build the interesting add-ons. It's almost like, okay, we've built Half-Life. What is Counter-Strike going to look like? You know. That's a terrible (I'm aging myself.) example. But still. VICTORIA: I think it's interesting, I mean, to look at the size of the market for platform engineering right now. In 2022, was 4.8 billion, and it's estimated to be in 10 years $41 billion. So, there is this emerging trend of different platform engineering products, different abstractions on top of Kubernetes. And I wonder what advice you would have for a technical founder who's looking to build and solve some of these interesting issues in Kubernetes and create a business around it. KENDALL: Well, okay, let me clarify that question. Are you thinking, I'm a startup, and I need to build my infrastructure, and I'm going to choose Kubernetes. What advice do I need? Or are you thinking, I am founder, and I want to go build on the Kubernetes ecosystem. What advice do you have? VICTORIA: Now I want to know the answer to both. But my question was the second one to start. KENDALL: One of the things that is hard about the Kubernetes ecosystem is there's not a ton of companies that have made a whole bunch of money in Kubernetes because, as I said, I still think we're actually really early in the adoption curve. The kinds of companies that have adopted Kubernetes are the kinds of companies that don't spend lots and lots of money on an infrastructure. [laughs] They're the kinds of companies that are fast-moving, early adopters, or, you know, those first followers, and so they're under $100 million companies for the most part. Where the JP Morgans and Chase are running Kubernetes somewhere in their stack, but they haven't adopted it across the stack to need the biggest, best tools about it. So, the first piece of advice that I'd give is, be a little wary. It's still very early to the market. Maybe now is the time to build the thing. When ReactiveOps pivoted to Kubernetes, I think it was six months of having conversations with companies who were just, like, so excited about it, and this is definitely what we want to do. But nobody was doing it yet. You know, it was, we have, like, six solid months of just excitement and nobody actually pulling the trigger. And, you know, we were a little too early to that market. And that was just the people adopting it. So, I think there is some nervousness that cloud-native solutions the only people who are really making money in Kubernetes are named Amazon, Google, and Microsoft because it's the cloud providers that are making a ton off of it. Now, there's Rancher. There is StackPointCloud. There's a few others that have had big exits in this space. But I don't think it's actually as big of a booming economy as a lot of people think, in part because EKS is an incredibly amazing product. Like, eight years ago, the thing people paid us the most to do at ReactiveOps was just stand up Kubernetes because it was so stinking hard to just get it up and working. And now you click some buttons. Anybody can go do that. So, it's changed a lot, right? And I think be wary when you're entering that ecosystem. And then, my advice to the founder that's not building on the ecosystem but just looking to adopt a technology that's going to be a future-proofed infrastructure is just adopt one of the cloud-native platforms. And there are a whole bunch of sort of default best-in-class add-ons out there that you need to throw in. Don't adopt too many because then you have to maintain them forever. That's the easiest way to get started. You can figure out all the rest of it later. But if you go use EKS, or GKE, AKS, you can get started pretty easily and build something that is going to be future-proofed. I don't know, Joe; I'm curious if you disagree with any of that. JOE: Well, I think it's interesting to think about who's making money in Kubernetes. Like, I think there might not be as many companies who are doing only Kubernetes and Kubernetes-focused products that are massively successful. But I think because it has had a good amount of adoption and because it's easier to work with something that's standardized, it has helped companies sell things that they wanted to sell anyway. Like, all the Datadog, all the Scalas, the logging companies, they all have Kubernetes add-ons. And now everybody is paying Datadog [laughs] to have a dashboard for their Kubernetes cluster. I think they're making more money than they would have been without targeting the market. And so, I think that's really...if you want to get into the market, it's not, like, I'm going to build a Kubernetes product. It's if I'm building operations and an infrastructure product, I should definitely have it work with Kubernetes, and people will want to click and install it. KENDALL: So, to be clear, you know, one of the companies that I work with is called Axiom, and they play in the same, you know, monitoring, observability space as Datadog does. And part of what makes Kubernetes interesting in that space is in a microservice environment; there's so much happening. Where are problems being caused? We don't live in a day where I can just run my code, and it tells me that there's an unexpected semicolon on line 23, right? Like, that still happens. You're still doing those things. But this microservice talking to that microservice is where things tend to break down. Did I communicate this correctly? What was sent? What was received? Where did it break down? What was the latency? And if you were doing things in the old way back when you were standing it up with, say, Ansible, or Puppet, or something like that, and you were orchestrating all of these cloud virtual machines, you had to really work hard to instrument the tracing and logging and everything involved in order to track what was going on. Whereas that's one of the magic things about Kubernetes is with a few of the add-ons or some of the things out of the box with Kubernetes, it's a couple of clicks to get so, so much of the data and have insight into where things are going and what's going wrong. And so, I 100% agree with that. Kubernetes is generating a tremendous amount of data. And if you're a data company, it's really nice to have all that come in, and it helps them make money, helps the user of Kubernetes in that situation understand where problems are happening and breaking down. Yeah, there's definitely some network effects of what Kubernetes is doing in that. I completely agree. JOE: I think there are also some interesting companies, like, where they make...Emissary, Ambassador, and they have that sort of dual -- KENDALL: Komodor, is that -- JOE: Yeah, maybe. They have open source, but then they have a product. KENDALL: You're thinking of Ambassador Labs. JOE: Yeah. Ambassador Labs, yeah. I guess I don't really know how much money they're making. But I think that's a really interesting concept as people who make open-source things then make a well-supported product built around it. KENDALL: Sure. What's interesting is, I think in the VC world, at least right now, and it may pick up again, but post-Silicon Valley Bank nearly caving in, I think that the VC tolerance for, yeah, just go get a billion open-source adopters, and we'll figure out how to monetize later I think that the tolerance for that is a lot lower than it was even six months ago. JOE: Yeah, I think you have to have a dual model right from the beginning now. KENDALL: Yeah. Agreed. VICTORIA: You got to figure out how to make money on Kubernetes before you can. [laughs] KENDALL: You know, minor detail. That's why I think services companies in this space still have a lot going for it. Because in order to even be able to sell software to a company using Kubernetes, you half the time have to go stand up Kubernetes for them because it is still that hard for so many people to really adopt it. VICTORIA: Yeah. And maybe, like, talking more about, like, when it is the right decision to start on Kubernetes because I think the question I get sometimes is just, is it overkill? Is it too much for what we're building? Especially, like, if you're building a brand-new product, you're not even sure if it's going to get adopted that widely. KENDALL: I mean, and I'm [laughs] curious your thought on this, Joe, but there's a good argument to be made that Heroku was enough for the vast majority of founders early on. But the thing is, Kubernetes isn't as hard as it used to be. Going and clicking a couple of buttons on GKE and deploying something into Kubernetes with GKE Autopilot running it's not as easy as Heroku, but it's not wildly far off. And it does substantially future-proof you. So, when is it too early? I'm not sure it's ever too early if you have an intention of scaling if you're planning on running some kind of legacy workload, like, things that are going to be stateful. Or maybe WordPress, for example, you don't probably need to deploy your WordPress blog onto Kubernetes. You can do that in your cPanel on Bluehost. I don't actually know if Bluehost even exists anymore, but I assume it's still a thing. I don't know, what would you say, Joe? JOE: I agree with that. I think it's a hard first pill to swallow. But I think the reality is that it's very easy to underestimate the infrastructure needs of even an early product. Like, it doesn't really matter what you're building. You're still going to have things like secrets management. You're still going to have to worry about networking. They just don't go away. There's no way you have a product without them. And so, rather than slowly solving all those problems from scratch on a platform that isn't designed for it, I think it's easier to just bite the bullet and use one of the managed solutions, especially, as you said, I think it's getting easier and easier. The activation energy from going from credit card to Kubernetes cluster is just getting lower. KENDALL: And so, the role of the CTO is just getting easier and easier because they can just adopt the one technology, and it's obviously Kubernetes. And it's obviously Rust, right? [laughter] Yeah, no, I'm with you. And I think if you find somebody who knows Kubernetes inside and out, it's really not going to take them long to get started. VICTORIA: Yeah, once again, change management is the biggest challenge for any new innovation coming into adoption. So, I'm curious to talk more about the influence that you need and how you influence others to come around to these types of ideas, like, in the executive suite and with the leadership of a company, especially on these types of topics, which can feel maybe a little abstract for people. KENDALL: How you influence them specifically to use Kubernetes, or just how you talk with them about technology adoption in general? Or what are you asking? VICTORIA: Yeah, like, how do I get people to not just turn their ears off when I say the word Kubernetes? [laughs] KENDALL: Yeah, I mean, I think...so I think that's where it's the technologist's job and the role of the CTO to translate these things into business speak. And that's why I'm using words like future-proofing your infrastructure is because there are companies that...I know one company that made a conscious decision that they were going to try to re-platform every single year, and that is not a good idea or sustainable for the vast majority [laughs] of companies. In fact, I can't think of a single situation where that makes sense. But if you can say to the CFO, "Hey, it's going to cost us a little bit more right now. It's going to save us substantially in the long term because this is the thing that's winning. And if we go standardize on Heroku right now, every company does eventually have to migrate off of Heroku. They either go out of business, or they get too big for it." That's the kind of thing that needs to be communicated in order to get people to adopt it. They don't care what the word is. They don't care if you're saying Kubernetes; you know, most CFOs understand it about as well as my mom does. My mom tries to bring it up in conversation because she's heard me use it. And she thinks it makes her sound smart, which maybe it does in the right climate. VICTORIA: My partner does the same thing. He says DevOps and Kubernetes all the time. I'm like; you don't know what you're talking about. [laughter] JOE: Those words do not come up in my house. KENDALL: One of my kids asked me to explain Kubernetes. And I do a whole talk, particularly at organizations where understanding Kubernetes is essential to the salespeople's role. And I give a whole talk about the background of how we got here from deploying on some servers in our back room. And, you know, what's different about the cloud, what containerization did, et cetera. And I have this long explanation. And I remember taking a deep breath and saying to my kids, "Do you really want to hear this?" And I had one son say, "Yes, absolutely." And my wife and three of the other kids all stood up and said, "No way," and left the room. So, when somebody asks me, "What do you do?" Actually, one of the key relationships I built with some of the early people at GCP when we were partnering closely with them was a person that I met, and I asked, "What do you do for a living?" And he said, "I can tell you, but it's not going to mean anything to you." And I was like, "That's what I say to people." And it turned out he was in charge of, you know, Kubernetes partnerships for Google. I can explain to you what it means and why it's important. But you're not going to be happy that I spent that time explaining it to you. VICTORIA: [laughs] That sounds awesome, though. It sounds like you built a server rack just to demo to your children what it was. KENDALL: No, no. I just talked back through the history of...that company that I mentioned that built Twitter about five years too early; we had a, you know, we had a server rack in the...literally physically in our closet that was serving up our product at the time. VICTORIA: Probably the best demo I ever saw was at Google headquarters in Herndon, and someone had built...They had 3D-printed a little mini server rack that they had put Raspberry Pis onto, and then they had Kubernetes deployed on it. And they did an automatic failover of a node to just demo how it works and had little lights that went with it. It was pretty fun. So maybe you should get one for yourself. [laughter] It's a fun project. KENDALL: They remember the things that it enables. They don't remember what it does. And so, when I say so, and so is a client that's using this technology, then they get real excited because they're like, "My dad makes that work." And I'm like, well, okay, that's kind of a stretch, but you get the idea. VICTORIA: Yeah, you got to lean into that kind of reputation in your house. KENDALL: That's right. VICTORIA: And you're like, yes, that's correct. KENDALL: That's right. [laughs] VICTORIA: I do make Kubernetes. I make all the clouds work, yeah. KENDALL: Actually, my most common explanation is Kubernetes is the plumbing of the internet. Unless you're a plumber, you don't care about the pipes. You just want your shit to flush when you use the toilet. You want the things to load when you click your buttons. You don't actually care what's going on behind the scenes, but this is what's orchestrating it increasingly across the internet. VICTORIA: So far, we've called Kubernetes WordPress or the toilet. [laughs] KENDALL: The plumbing. [laughter] VICTORIA: You are really good at selling it. [laughter] KENDALL: Hey, if you want to build a nice, clean city, you need good plumbing. You might not care what the pipes are made of, but you need good plumbing. [laughs] VICTORIA: Works for me. On that note -- [laughs] KENDALL: Yeah. Right? Right? VICTORIA: That's [inaudible 36:41] on a high note. Is there anything else that you'd like to promote? KENDALL: With regards to CTO Lunches, we have a free listserv. There are local lunches. If there isn't a local lunch where you are, it's very lightweight to start up a chapter. We often have folks who are willing to sponsor that first lunch to get you going. We do have a paid tier of CTO Lunches. If you want a small back room Slack channel of people to discuss, I think it's $99 a month. Yeah, if you're a CTO and/or a senior engineering leader and you want a community of people to process with, be it our free tier or our paid tier, we've got something for you. We're trying to invest in this to build community around it. And it's something we enjoy doing more than almost anything. Come take part. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Kendall Miller.

On this week's podcast episode, we brought back a guest we've had on the #DoorGrowShow before, Joe Edgar from Tenant Cloud. Property management growth expert, Jason Hull sits down with Joe Edgar to talk about the many new features that have been added to Tenant Cloud to benefit property managers and what is next to come for the software. You'll Learn... [01:35] An Introduction to Tenant Cloud [06:44] The Different Systems PMs Need [14:11] Integrating Different Property Management Tools [17:36] Tenant Management and Roommates  [27:43] Accessing and Transferring your Data [31:55] Are Completely Remote Showings the Future? Tweetables “Listings are important because of course, as soon as you have a rental, what do you need? You need a tenant. Nothing worse than vacant property.” “So there's a relationship in all of those that you really have to harbor and that's where making sure you're connected to your tenants and you're connected to managing service for them is important because then they will reach out to you to buy one where if it's a bad experience, they won't.” “You're busy doing all this work, but then actually going back and making sure you're making money at what you're doing is often the last thing they look at.” “You have two choices in life... You can be reactive or you can be proactive. ” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Joe: Because that's one of the hard parts is you're busy doing all this work, but then actually going back and making sure you're making money at what you're doing is often the last thing they look at. They worry about because they're trying to provide to customers, their owners. Yeah. And the tenants, good quality customer support. And so that's where it's the hard challenge and making sure they're all connected in a nice, easy way.  [00:00:20] Jason: All right, we are live. Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:25] All right, so my guest today is Joe Edgar. And Joe, it's been a while since we've had you on the show here, so.  [00:01:33] Joe: Yeah, definitely has. Glad to be here.  [00:01:35] Jason: So Joe started a company called Tenant Cloud. And today you're going to be talking about property management and real estate technology in 2023. So, Bring us up to date, man.  [00:01:47] Joe: Yeah, it has been a while since we first launched, I think back in 2016 was a real focus on the DIY landlord and trying to support that general group. And as it really has grown into-- our biggest following is now really property managers focused in the single family rental space. So, that distinction has come down to really the difference in logistics. And so, as many know in property management, if you're managing multi-family, then you usually have somebody on site, but if you're managing single family rentals, there's just too many properties. And so Yeah. Ends up being a logistical nightmare. And so that's really where we end up fine tuning our solution is all around the logistics, managing those single family rentals and helping you grow your business.  [00:02:30] Jason: Cool. So what have you been up to since then? I'm sure you've made some updates to Tenant Cloud.  [00:02:36] Joe: Yeah, there have been a lot of updates especially since then. I think some of the best things that really help a property management company really get going is the fact that you can sign up for Tenant Cloud and in just a couple of minutes for free. There are some paid solutions, but just on the basis of free, you can set up your own company website. From your company website, you can have its own listing portal. So all of your listings that you're going to manage, it can have applications and so tenants can find you. They can apply for a rental. You can manage that application, you can send it back for more information. You can charge a management fee or not. Lots of customization inside of there. You could have multiple bank accounts. If you have different owners, you can, send an agreement to an owner have them sign it. They have their own portal so they can own their own reports. And then of course, the more traditional stuff on top of that, which is, just managing the property itself. Everything from maintenance to just general communication with your tenants. And so all those things kind of fit in there. I think the most fun thing that we have that really brings a lot of value worth mentioning is if you follow the industry, we're starting to see these silos and vertical step up. I think the biggest mover now is co-star who is looking to buy move.com, which is realtor.com. And so they're really trying to have that niche. And then Zillow of course, exists. And then you have Redfin who's putting together a lot of other sites. And those are all around listings. And so listings are important because of course, as soon as you have a rental, what do you need? You need a tenant. Nothing worse than vacant property. So, we built this thing. We have so many tenants that come to us. Our affiliate sites, College Pads, and Rentler, are all really bringing us lots and lots of leads.  [00:04:25] So having all of these leads, we decided to go the extra mile. We said, what if we offered all of them the ability to basically say what it is they're looking for. And by telling us what they're looking for, we can then match them with all of the inventory of vacancies. And so we take users who are already, they came to us for the purpose of trying to find a home. And we have all these property managers who are trying to find tenants into their rentals. So we built this thing called premium leads, and really you could think of it as like Tinder for tenants. Okay. And so what happens is the tenant will put on what they're looking for. They're like, "I want Southwest Austin. I'm looking for, $2,500 a month, a two bedroom, one bath, a yard, a fence." Say the general things they're looking for. And the second you turn on premium leads as a landlord, it will take all of your properties, even if they're not listed, it'll have them already matched, but they won't see it. The tenant won't see it until you actually make it live by listing it. And immediately all of those show up for the property manager. So the second you turn on premium leads, you have potentially, like, I love turning it on because it's such a nice feeling to like list a property, immediately you have like 15 leads, you're like, "That's great," and you invite them to apply. So you just invite them to apply and that sends real invites to those tenants. So those tenants now got a personal invite from you and you can go through, the tenant goes through it. If they like the property, they can swipe left and ask more questions. They can fill out a rental application, maybe schedule a showing, anything like that. Or if they don't like it, they swipe left and they move on their way.  [00:06:03] Jason: So they'll swipe right if they like it. Yep. And left if they don't, and then it's swipe left if they don't. Got it.  [00:06:08] Joe: Yeah. So it's a very non-abrasive way to approach all of these different tenants looking for leads. And so it now is the largest lead generator inside of our solution. So we integrate with Zillow, we integrate with realtor.com, many of the Redfin solutions, but it now outperforms all of them. It produced about 60% of the leads on Tenant Cloud. Wow. So it's a really nice way to go and find and fill your tenants. So again, everything, it's really about bringing all of those things that you have to property management into one easy solution at a low cost, help you save time, grow your business.    [00:06:44] Jason: So if somebody already is like knee deep in another property management software, can they still use the premium leads? [00:06:50] Joe: Oh yeah, for sure. It's easy. I mean, that's what's nice is it's segmented off. We have a lot of property managers who do multi-family and multi-family is a different beast. We have a lot who hack us and use us for like multi-family, but as I said, the single family rentals has a logistics problem and I can explain why we're so different in that space. Sure. But when you get into multi-family we know where the space and we know the industry. And so if you're in multi-family more traditionally after one of those larger property management solutions, and most of that is in part because multi-family is 95% owned by institutional investors. And institutional investors need data. These large rates. And so we're not designed for that big stuff. We're really out to help smaller property managers kind of, grow their business and not answer to large rates. So the way the data flows separates us pretty substantially. And so that's what would make a unique thing. So on the logistics problem you have, maybe you have one maintenance person, but a lot don't. And so the key feature is if you were a property manager, you already know, it's like how many property managers can manage how many units? You have the math and it's generally around a hundred units per person.  [00:08:04] And you can get some that are starting to get more efficient. They're getting into like duplexes and triplexes where they get down to, maybe the 85 to one. But normally about a hundred. And a hundred's a good number because if you're also a broker, then you also know I'm managing these properties because I know about 5% of them will bring me additional business annually. Either my clients are selling or my clients are buying, or my tenants are looking to buy. Right. So there's a relationship in all of those that you really have to harbor and that's where making sure you're connected to your tenants and you're connected to managing service for them is important because then they will reach out to you to buy one where if it's a bad experience, they won't. [00:08:43] And so having a nice solution on their phone that they can easily sign a lease, they filled out their application, they can pay their rent, they can view everything that's in their power, is great. Then in addition, if anything happens, they can go to their phone. And there's four simple questions that breaks 1500 problems with a home down into four simple questions that are icon based. And so they select them and they can take a picture and a video and it goes direct to the property manager. And the property manager now has the choice because we can't say, not all tenants are accurate. Not all tenants know how to fix anything. And so, whatever they say the problem is, it could be something different. And so I've had this on my own experience where it's like, I find out the roof keeps leaking, but I'm like, you realize it hasn't rained in weeks. And you find out it's the air conditioner. It's like catching condensation. And so you know what they say the problem is and what it actually is is not always the case. And so it's nice. You get the maintenance request, you have a picture, you have a video, you have a small explanation if they wanted to add it to it. And if you have a service professional that you work with, you can send it to them or you can change the category. You can schedule it from there. [00:09:50] And once you assign it to them, they can now communicate directly with the tenant, but you are privy to all the messages. And now they can schedule this outside of it. Or you can plan for them, but they can schedule outside of you having to do it constantly. Now, that's one method. It can also be if you're in a property management office there's one here in Austin I just talked to. They have 50 rentals, so they're growing theirs. They're managing on behalf of about 10 owners. And so that's not big enough on their level to have a maintenance person on staff. And so they contract everything. And so what's nice is inside of theirs, they can actually use it inside the maintenance request. They can get a quote and that quote goes out to all service professionals in the local area that can then send in bids on behalf of that. And you can run it in two different flows. You can say, "okay, well I'll make the decision," depending on what you have with the owner. Or you can send the different quotes to the owner to pick one of them. [00:10:44] And so there's lots of different ways to manage that. But now once you connect them, you can then do the same thing. You're like, okay, I like your bid. You do it, I'll schedule you. You're in. And then you have privy. And then there's a way the tenant can say, well, it's not done exactly. And they say it is done. So you kind of do a lot before you actually have to go on site. I mean, when I was doing property management, the worst thing was most of the site visits are not what they said. And they're things like, "the lights are out," and it's because the light bulb is burned up. It's like, well, that's not, you just wasted a lot of time for me to drive across town. There's two hours of wasted time to do this. And so having those logistics are great. That's the heart of Tenant Cloud. But then on top of that, it's like, okay, well the logistic problem and getting on the phone and scheduling is tough. Then I got to account for all this. [00:11:30] And accounting is the next piece. So when the tenant goes in and enters that, we have those categories of which they're selecting by icon based for maintenance requests. They're matched with both revenue and expenditure and capital expenditure categories inside the accounting automatically. And then in addition, you can keep track of any assets. And by that I mean if you have a refrigerator or an oven, you can store all those in. So if a maintenance request comes, you can actually look up any piece of equipment like a fridge and it can tell you, show you all the maintenance requests it's had. It'll find correlations like things. You're replacing this motor every year so you can make those decisions on like, we probably should just get a new fridge. But then inside of that, all of those are matched with the IRS 1040 Schedule E categories. And so what is great is you as a property manager who is going to be doing your 1099s at the end of the year. Your contractors, if you were to bid it inside the system, you can pay them and they can invoice you. So if it's someone you don't know, then of course they'll create an invoice for you after the work. But it's someone you do know and they just, you're figuring out what the bill is on the side. You can message them on the side or directly in the ticket, and then you can pay them directly. What's nice is when it comes to accounting time, your owners have a very clean, simple 1040 Schedule E already done for them that has all their costs laid out, that you didn't have to go back and do anything extra, has all the receipts matched to it. Each one goes all the way down. And each property manager, as a refer to, are these "additional opportunities." There's lots of ways, depending on how you have a relationship with your owner to set up those additional opportunities. [00:13:06] For example, you could just charge like, I have a 10% fee on top of any cost for maintenance I do. And so that would be added into maintenance requests. So that's already being done. Or you could have it, we have a flat rate that we charge for tenants. I mean there's lots of ways to set it up for your property management company to make sure they're accounting for their revenue as well. Because that's one of the hard parts is you're busy doing all this work, but then actually going back and making sure you're making money at what you're doing is often the last thing they look at. They worry about because they're trying to provide to customers, their owners. Yeah. And the tenants, good quality customer support. And so that's where it's the hard challenge and making sure they're all connected in a nice, easy way. And everything kind of flows in a simple recurring way that is predictable and you know for sure how it's going to work is an important part of growing your business. And so then that passes through to the owners can fully see their reports. You have your reports for your 1099s and all of it happened behind the scenes without you really looking at it. So the heart of it is to be kind of a logistics and accountant, a back office person to help you, a small property management company kind of grow. [00:14:10] Jason: Cool. Cool. So the maintenance coordination piece, solving that logistics challenge, can that be used by companies that are also using another property management software already?  [00:14:20] Joe: Yeah. Sorry, I kind of went on a-- I digress. That was your question before. You can kind of go on and use whatever piece you want. So we have lots of larger ones who are doing multi-family and they have found that they get all our leads at Tenant Cloud. So they still use their traditional property management software to answer to the beast above them for accounting. Yeah. But they get all their leads and manage all their rental applications through Tenant Cloud. And for their business, they get to keep the application fee. And so it's nice because they can set all that up and so they run everything there. So all the applications you can do a background check, you can do a full one, you can do a partial one. So there's lots of different variations you can do in there. And so it's nice for them because they manage everything on there. Once they actually do a lease, then they actually put them in their other property management software and do it on there. And then some are slowly kind of converting into Tenant Cloud as it does more for them. As they see, they're like, well, why don't we just move here? But in a lot of the wreaths they don't. But on slower ones, yeah, you can manage just leads.  [00:15:15] We have a really nice CRM tool built in. And so because we give you a free website and then we distribute your listing to so many different places, we set you up on a unique text number. You don't know what it is, it doesn't matter to you, but what's great is it does matter to someone looking at your rental. And so to find your listing on any site, and then, if I have a rental application, that's an easy one. I'll fill out the application that goes through the system and you get a nice, clean application. You can request more information, whatever you want to do. But when it's just a lead, which is how most of them come in. They'll send you a message and they can do it via text straight from the listing. They hit a number, they send you a text, and you can respond to them via text, right in your Tenant Cloud account. And so that's where you can take all the different messengers, have it in one place, nice and simple track notes, maybe it's, maybe the one they're looking for is not available now and you want to use it for later, so you just tag it. [00:16:08] But yeah, there's different parts of Tenant Cloud that you can use for just different parts of your business, depending on what you're doing.  [00:16:13] Jason: So what you're saying is on the tenant side, there's basically CRM for tenant leads and that you can manage that communication and you can do it through text message because the listings have that number on it. Exactly. And then on the maintenance coordination thing, which also sounded really cool that piece can be used standalone as well, is what you're saying?  [00:16:31] Joe: Yep. Correct. Okay. Each one is really segmented Now if you use them altogether, of course, they just make life easier, but sure. But yeah, you really can use each little function separately. Now, if you wanted to come from another software, you can easily upload your data. So we have tools for that. And if you ever wanted to take Tenant Cloud data, this is one of the things, it has been our company's motto from the beginning, that we are not making business on holding your data randsom. And so you can easily take your data at any time you want and use it and flow it anywhere. And so some of those have been good. We have a QuickBooks integration, so that makes it seamless. But we have others who use some other unique accounting software, and so we've made that so you can just pull your data and put it in anything else that you want as well. So there's lots of reasons to have that, but that's an important thing before you use one, you're like, I want to know that I can get all my data out of it. because you're uploading images. Yeah, you're uploading tenant information. I mean, it ends up becoming your record retention for a lot of stuff that you're doing on a legal basis. And so it's important to have all that, but to also have access to where you can get rid of it on a digital form, but store it somewhere still. [00:17:36] Jason: So if we were to look at the Tenant Cloud ecosystem or, system as a whole, we've got, the tenant lead sort of CRM in communication for taking care of the vacancy situation. We've got the maintenance coordination piece, we've got the accounting piece you've mentioned. What other major?  [00:17:53] Joe: So there's tenant management. Tenant management is just one where you want to have all your information about each tenant. It may flow from the application but then once you have it, you want to message them. And so you could have tenants all on one street and you need to message them and say, "Hey, street clean, street sweeping on this date. So you can message a part of them. Or you may have all your tenants at large, you have a policy change you're going to do, or you may have two cities and you say, okay, in this city this is changing. And so just helping manage all of those tenants and having a place to keep both private and information that you share with the tenant is really important. [00:18:29] So there are things like, for instance, if you enter an accounting or you send us something, it's nice to know that it's live. And it's also nice to know that they have seen it. And so when you have a message, you can see for sure that you see, as we all know a hard part, but a reality of property management is that you will end up in a court, every so often with a tenant. And so making sure you have an easy place to account for all your timing and what you did with a maintenance request. And all of your messages in regards to just your relationship in general in one place is really important. And so to be able to pull it out and show dates and to be able to show what was seen and what wasn't seen is really important. A nice, easy process to kind of print it out and, bring it to court. As you will know, it's a huge part. And unfortunately that's part of the business, but it is one that you really, if you're going to grow your business, it's an important part to have, early. So there's tenant management. [00:19:20] We have a whole calendar scheduling piece, and that's really important because it's the next piece that I'll talk about is as you grow your property management business, in the beginning it's usually just you. And that's fantastic because that is definitely where you're like, I need to grow this. And then you bring out, and sometimes it's a significant other. That's fantastic if you can pull that off. Right. And so there's two of you, right? And often they'll use the same logins, right? Because they're like, there's two of us. So we're talk, we see each other enough that we'll do stuff. But once you have that first real hire, it's a different business. Because now you really don't have the same, it's a professional relationship and you don't have that same thing where you're like, we do need to, like who's doing what. Yeah. And so even though I say it's this calendar function, we have a team feature. You can go in and add team members and you can change all the settings for each team member. [00:20:10] And so it could be like it, you can assign them specific properties and so they're only able to see stuff on properties. You could limit them from accounting, you could limit them from certain settings. And so there's lots of ways, depending on what the team member is. For instance, you could have accountant, you could have a property manager just doing marketing, and you could have someone who, does maintenance. So just depending on what it is. But what's great about your team function is now you have a way to communicate with them. So very easily in a chat you can press a hash sign and find any of your properties in a message, and it will pull that up and then have a link to it. And then at sign you can find any one of your team members. And from a message, you can make that a task. And so all of a sudden tasks are running for everybody. And as the master account, you can see all the tasks going through on the calendar, and then you can message, each other about different tenants or any type of messaging that goes on there. And so you'll find, and then the system itself will self-generate tasks for you. For example, ones you should, they're obvious, that is like, all right, I have a lease. I want to know two months in advance before this lease expires.  [00:21:12] Tell me, cause I need to renew it. It could be, I talked to this tenant and they're going to schedule something, they send a message and from that message, they're going to pay rent two days late. But I get it. And so boom, you have a task, you're going to have those reminders come up. And so that's really that angle from trying to get the system knows a lot of the things that you automatically need to do. So they're already in there. For instance, every six months you need to check smoke detectors you need to do servicing before winter. There's cleanup. So all those things can be automatic inside of that calendar, but then really running inside the team function really brings it to work because now you mix that with your maintenance team or whether they're outside or not, but it's assigning them and it really becomes a magic. So we built this kanban board where you can manage a lot of those tasks, especially when you get more than a hundred properties and you're trying to grow your business. You'll know exactly what I'm talking about. You're just like, "ah, I forgot." So you have two choices in life. When it gets that big, you can be reactive. Or you can be proactive. So we have tried to build a system to help you be proactive. And that's, it's telling you before you think about it. So then you're like, "oh yeah, I totally forgot about it." I do need to schedule you that. You move it into the next kanban board, you assign it to this person, run it there. And so it's really a great way for a team to come together and trying to do property management. And so that's one of the features. There's quite a few features, but another one I'll mention that's worth noting, that makes us different than other solutions as well is when you go down to single family rentals, a lot don't know-- many in this area will know-- but universities are very unique in that universities have a higher density of smaller property managers managing around the university than non universities. And so if you get out away from the universities, you're into these big apartment developments and so they're slightly different. And you get into universities and there's quite a few property managers that just service around that area.  [00:23:01] And so one of the struggles for the property managers is always how do they deal with roommates? And you have so many different ways to deal with a roommate. You could take one rental and I could rent out every room individually, or I could rent out the whole house and just say, okay, well I'm going to, I'll rent out the house to all of you, but each one of you are going to pay a specific amount. Or I can rent out the whole house, and I'm going to say, all right, I don't know. I don't care. You're all on the lease. However you pay, just get me the money. And so those are all very different structurally in how you set something up and it all the way down from receiving an application, vetting them, moving them in to sign a lease, and moving them out, holding deposits and the ongoing relationship.  [00:23:42] They're all different. And so what's nice is we really have thought through a lot of those, and they're not just on roommates. So we're starting to see this happen now in older care centers. And so, assisted living of sorts, they are now doing a lot of roommate features. And so these are older care centers that are using us for property management software. However, they usually the tenants are self-sustaining, so they don't need a nurse. They're just living inside of a center. And so the same kind of features. And so a lot of this roommate functionality is taken off and then really during 2020, like, when Covid kind of happened, it wasn't as popular. It was a feature that we had built in and we we thought it was really aimed for the college universities as college pads, one of our partners. And so we had built that in, but really starting last year. And my own take is that real estate went so expensive that you're seeing a lot of roommates pop in. And so a lot of people are procrastinating moving into their own place. Rentals are taking off and people are moving in together. So now you see this over pouring. So the last report realtor.com did it. However it follows what Wall Street Journal did. That theirs was, there are 2 million households formed again last year, which means we are missing 6.5 million homes in the marketplace based on them. And if we are missing 6.5 million and things are so expensive, you are saying we have no choice that roommates are just over pouring into everyone's lives. So what they didn't think was is now a single family home, an apartment, everyone is now dealing with roommates and it's created software problems everywhere. [00:25:24] One that we have already solved and thought through. That's a great feature because how you rent them matters. It's, it changes the entire relationship from being a customer support frustration. Like if they're each paying a separate amount and you're doing rooms, but you're treating it as a solution where they're all in the same one, you'll just mess up all, for everyone. And so being able to manage those on so many different levels is really nice because you can have separate leases. One lease that they all sign and they all share their invoice, where as soon as one pays all the rest of them see it and they can figure out how to pay. Or you can just say each one of you're paying and then somebody's else is out and they're done. Or you going to move one in and move mountains, move the deposit. So it becomes such a problem that it's one to be noted. But now in today's industry, were roommate renting is just a commonplace, so that's a feature worth talking about.  [00:26:11] Jason: Very cool. Yeah. Cool. All right, so we've got the maintenance coordination, the accounting, the CRM for tenant leads, tenant management and communication, you've got the calendar scheduling, which sounds like kind of team communication, and then you've got the Roommates functionality, so,  [00:26:29] Joe: so we have a whole document. So anything you can manage all your, so we have both PDF and from scratch. So if you want to build an agreement yourself, you can drop in, easy pop in auto fills on the template, or you can just add a PDF and build the template. We also have them available for every state and county if they're divided. So lots of stuff to do E-signature and create your own lease agreements and manage kind of all that in-house as well. And then notices, So you can build a template notice, send it to a tenant when you know, rent's due or something like that. [00:26:58] Jason: Nice. Very cool. Yeah. Well, sounds like you guys have been busy so.  [00:27:03] Joe: Very busy. Yeah, it's been fun. Yeah.  [00:27:06] Jason: Very cool. Well, yeah, I can see how this would stand out from some of the property management software. Now you had mentioned that people can migrate from their existing software. So how difficult, because this is usually really painful for people, Yeah, to transition. I've seen people go from AppFolio to Buildium or AppFolio to Rent Manager or switching to Propertyware or Propertyware to AppFolio. Like, so how difficult or easy is it to switch from one of these to Tenant cloud and are there some that are easier than others? [00:27:42] Joe: No. So we've tried to make it as easy as possible. So what we do is we give you a template. So if you go into upload, you can find the upload and then you download a template Excel file. And basically you'll take whatever data you can get. That's the hardest part really isn't so much setting it up in Tenant Cloud. It's more other companies aren't so willing to just give you data. And that's the hardest part is that if you can get the data from them, we give you a template that's really easy added in and once it's in, you're done. Your tenants are set up, all their information is set up. The lease is set up. If you have late fees that are in there, they'll be set up. All of it will be done. Your property will be set up and you'll be live and it'll be working. But it's all, it's really more a problem of like, which software relationship are you trying to get out of? That's a hard one because for us, and we have many that call and like, " well I just want all this!!" And we're like, fortunately Buildium won't give us that data. We can't call them on behalf of you. Yeah. So the only thing we can do is like they can give it to us. Yeah, exactly. So that's the hardest part in getting in, helping people migrate. Is just being able to pull all the information. They spent so much time, putting in another software but on our end, it's really easy to kind of set it up. [00:28:52] And that's the heart of it is because everything is connected. It's helping you do each phase of your life. Because if you ask a property manager, like, what's the hardest part of your job? Well it really depends like one on the season, on the time of the month, and what stage of the property is in. Because if it's vacant, of course it's like, I need a rental, I need leads. I got to find this. But if it's, if they're all rented, well now you're like, oh, I got fridges breaking everywhere. So it just depends on the job. So the software's always set up to help you in all of those sanctions of your life. And so uploading it is really easy because it connects to all of them automatically and you're kind of done. But yeah, again, the hardest part is getting the information. So, yeah, I wish I could say that was really easy, but that's a part we don't usually get to touch. So. Cool.    [00:29:35] Jason: Well, Tenant Cloud sounds pretty cool. I have not heard of too many people using it yet, and so I'm really interested in getting some feedback. That'll be really interesting to see. So it sounds like you guys have really been innovating in the space, so.  [00:29:49] Joe: Yeah, we've been trying to keep it as affordable as possible and get it going. We now have over a hundred thousand active property managers and landlords. Using it and over a million tenants. So it's been fun, but you'll look at how big the market is and there's 15 million DIY landlords and something like 18,000 property managers. And, it's a small slice. [00:30:11] There are many out there still using, Excel or, a back of the notebook to keep track of stuff. So it is more about getting the word out there and let them know that there is a nice, easy solution to use.  [00:30:21] Jason: Yeah. Very cool. So, now if they have a website, like say from us third party website or their own site or whatever are they able to get the rental listings?  [00:30:31] Oh, I love that you said that. Yes.  [00:30:32] An embed code to put into their site.  [00:30:34] Joe: Yep. So if they just give us, they can tell us now, I will give you a quick hack so there's a quick hack, but then we can also help them do it. And so the quick hack is we give you a free site and if you have a listing link, so if you just relink that listing of yours and use Tenant Cloud, it'll automatically go there because it's the relink. Right? However we can help you customize it. So the free one we give you is going to be an extension of Tenant Cloud, right? Yeah, it's our free version. But if you want us to host it, we do have to be given the credentials, but we can host it and then you'll have an active live site, and then there are parts of it you can turn off or turn on. So you could use, if you've already built one, you say, I want to host this, but I still want the listings on my native site. We can do that for you. We have quite a few that do that. So, and the listing functions nice. It gives you a map, it'll show all your rentals. So you have a sub thing that you can click and, see a preview and then you go to the full listing. And then on there is really where the CRM powers because it says, 'do you have a question?' Or it'll be like, 'schedule a tour' or 'fill out an application.' And so each one of those, so if they schedule a tour or have a question that goes right to your CRM. And so that's where you can respond to them how whatever format they want to respond. If they give you email, you can do email. If it's text, you can do text. Or if they create an account, they can talk actually through the Tenant Cloud app. But then of course they've got an application, it forces them to put that behind some closed information just so they're not  [00:31:55] Jason: I'm seeing some-- put it out-- Smart property managers switching from doing one-off showings for every vacancy constantly to doing open house dial. And is that possible using Tenant Cloud?  [00:32:08] Joe: You can schedule them as open house, but what we don't have and that what we want to do, and this really came about from Covid, is we've been working with a company, so it's coming out here in the future, but it's not there. And that is to be able to do remote showings. So the remote showings are slightly different than open house. What it is soon you'll be able to have where you set up, it's a door lock, it gives a specific code to a phone, and then there are two cameras set up in it, wifi, and then so you have control of all the doors and you have a camera view. And so someone can go in and quickly get a text number that's going to be live for 10 minutes and you can literally watch them. And give them a short tour before they go out and you can secure the place back up and know whether any new windows were left open or any doors. And so you like, do those. So that's been more of the answer we've done just because it is, if you do the open house it there, there's a lot of things that require onsite. So it's like, how can we help property managers again, with the logistics problem. Yeah. And logistics problem's the hard one because you go, you list the property. And half the problem is like only 50% of the people show up showings and you drove a long way to get there and you're like, Ugh. And so yes, to get as many people at a specific time is great. And so you can kind of set that up with your calendar. That's easy. But the real heart of it is like, how can I show this and actually just be right here on my computer? So I could do five showings at the exact same time from my laptop. And that's really the heart of what we're trying to get to, is that you should be able to do that during business hours, know that it's locked up and know who it is that went into the rental. And so that's part of it. They have to get verified in order to get a code. And so they're using their phone as part of that process. There's a picture and an id check as well. And so they're verifying themselves, which just helps keep honest people honest when they're setting up and doing a rental. So you're kind of doing a bit of vetting as you set some different things up. So, so that's more of where we're trying to go, is trying to get more remote.  [00:34:04] Jason: Cool. Cool stuff. So, well, I think everybody should go check it out. How can people get in touch with you or learn more about Tenant Cloud? [00:34:13] Joe: Yeah, I'm always easiest on Twitter, so, @Joe_Edgar_ , always accessible there. Tenant Cloud's the sites, t e n a n t c l o u d TenantCloud.com. And you can find us on all the social media. But yeah, definitely hope to check it out. It's, like I said, we have a base version that's free and then, other features that come on top of that. You can set up your bank account. Receive applications, list your property, move in a tenant, and collect rent online, and that's all free.  [00:34:42] Jason: So, Cool. Very cool. Yeah, I think that was the first episode we did with you. You, we were talking about how I think software for property managers will be free someday. So.  [00:34:51] Joe: Yes. I honestly think it's going to go that more and more features are coming to where it's like, the more of your business isn't there. Like some of the stuff I hope we get to, and I'll mention this just because more of the viewers are property managers, but if you remember that I talked about the maintenance request function and getting a bid. Well, I'm no stranger to property management. I own a couple of property management companies. And built the software off of that. And I know in our, one of them is fairly large, and so we have a maintenance crew, we have a turning crew, we have a painting crew. We now even have a a cabinet crew. We go through so many cabinets. We're like, we just need to build these ourselves. And so we have all these different crews and they're just doing us. But one of the biggest costs is the downtime. And so for them it's like each one of them is a side business. And so it's like we've been trying to like think of ways there, like how can we grow this? And I know I'm not alone. And so what we're hoping to get to is that all the property managers who use us are. They'll soon have a little flip that comes up that they can turn on to now get leads. And so they will be part of the ones like saying, Hey, we have a service that does carpet cleaning. And so inside of my normal property management, now I can actually go and service people outside of the properties I manage if I want to look to expand some of the businesses that I've now created. [00:36:10] And so, and it's unique because property management is different. Like if I go and if I say to a property manager, Hey I have a property I need to do a turn on. They know exactly what that means. And there's not just one contractor outside of property management that could do that. And so property managers are in a unique space where they're like, well, I know exactly what you need. I need to go do an inspection. I need to check the carpets, I need to check the walls. There's probably going to be some painting. I got to do a little plumbing. I may even have to do some hvac, I'm going to have to do a little landscaping. And all of that's tied into it and owning a property manager has built out some of the functions to be able to service that. It's not all the property management companies, but quite a few of them will do it as they grow, just because they're like, well, we're now in-house. We're doing enough of them. I've got one lawn mowing guy that's running or something. So, so it's a nice feature that we hope to really bring out to embrace our own customers, helping them now find and grow their business in other unique ways they never thought about. So.  [00:37:05] Jason: Awesome. Very cool. Well, Joe, thanks for being on the show. Appreciate you being here.  [00:37:10] Joe: Oh, my pleasure. Thanks.  [00:37:11] Jason: All right, so check out tenantcloud.com. Sounds like it's really cool software. I'm really curious to get your feedback on how it compares to whatever else you've been using or what you're using for those that are doing research lately. So, let us know in our Facebook group. So join our free community that's available to property management entrepreneurs on Facebook. It is DoorGrow Club. The DoorGrow Club. You can get to that by going to DoorGrowclub.com and it will redirect you to our Facebook group. Answer the questions and join the group and we will give you some free gifts as well and that can benefit your property management business. And, check us out at DoorGrow.com. We are the world's leading property management coaching mastermind. We are helping grow and scale property management companies rapidly. We would love to help you grow and scale your business, figure out operations, make your day-to-day easier, and take some vacations, people.  [00:38:05] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:38:32] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Weather can have a big impact on specific wagers for sports bettors. How does the time of day affect NASCAR races? What about wind direction and speed for golf and football? Does the thinner air of the Rocky Mountains really impact baseball games at Coors Field? Mike Szvetitz from Front Page Bets joins the show and discusses how weather changes the game  — football, baseball, golf, auto racing, and more. We want to hear from you! Have a question for the meteorologists? Call 609-272-7099 and leave a message. You might hear your question and get an answer on a future episode! About the Across the Sky podcast The weekly weather podcast is hosted on a rotation by the Lee Weather team: Matt Holiner of Lee Enterprises' Midwest group in Chicago, Kirsten Lang of the Tulsa World in Oklahoma, Joe Martucci of the Press of Atlantic City, N.J., and Sean Sublette of the Richmond Times-Dispatch in Virginia. Episode transcript Note: The following transcript was created by Adobe Premiere and may contain misspellings and other inaccuracies as it was generated automatically: Hello, once again, everybody, I'm meteorologist Sean Sublette. And welcome to Across the Sky, our national Lee Enterprises weather podcast. Lee Enterprises has print and digital operations in 77 locations across the country, including in my home base in Richmond, Virginia. I'm joined by my meteorologist colleagues from across the sky, Matt Holiner in Chicago and Joe Martucci in Atlantic City at the Jersey Shore. Our colleague Kirsten Lang taking some time off in Tulsa to be with family, for a few weeks. Gentlemen, we've got a really good interview today. Our pal here in Richmond, Mike Szvetitz , who runs Front Page Betts. And we're going to talk about weather and gaming. The weather and gaming industry. I think most of us kind of know about about the football situation, but there are other aspects out there as well. Joe, you are an AC man. So so talk a little bit about what you know there. Well, you know, we're in the actually the capital of sports gaming. Fun fact, Sean, New Jersey actually has more sports gaming revenue than Nevada. And it might sound crazy, but the difference is in Nevada. And this might have changed recently by not sure. You can only bet in Nevada if you sign up for an account at the casino in New Jersey, you don't have to go to a casino. You just sign up on your phone wherever you are. Does it matter if you're in Cape May or in Sussex County? So we we are very ingrained in sports betting here. And New Jersey, of course, do so responsibly. I do some myself. I did pretty good with our March Madness, you know, biting I talk about is dodgeball is March Madness picks should followed mine I had UConn wedding the sign out a future bet on UConn. But it'll be a it's a it's a good episode Mike makes a good guy too and we're happy to have him leading the charge over at front page bets. And what was interesting for me is that we didn't limited to just baseball, football because that's what you kind of think about in the sports. You know, we do get a lot of interest in the betting world, but it was interesting to think about all the different sports that are impacted by weather. And we covered them all. I think I think we got through all we talked about golf, we talked about NASCAR, we talked about horse racing. And you. First, it doesn't hit you. But then you realize, man, weather has. Such an impact on so many different sports and betting, therefore. So this is a really fun episode. Yeah. So we're going to talk to Mike's event. It's about all those things here. I was really fascinated by the NASCAR stuff, the horse racing stuff, tennis, golf, all of that. That's up ahead with our conversation with Mike's that it's general manager and content director of Front Page Bets here at the Enterprises. Our guest this week is Mike Stead, its general manager and content director of front page Vets here at Lee Enterprises. That's our sports and betting portal, Educate, inform and of course, entertain sports fans from across the country, especially in this blossoming sports betting enterprise that is out there. Mike, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. MAN Hey, guys. Thanks for having me. Awesome beer. So I think intuitively we understand that there is always going to be some kind of weather impact on a game, right? I know football comes to mind at first, but can you talk a little bit about some of the nuances that that aren't obvious to the to the casual observer? Could you speak to baseball first since that one might be even less obvious? Yeah, I think, you know, anytime you're playing outdoors, you know, you always got to take the weather in effect, as you guys you know, as you guys know, I mean, some of the most popular are and the most popular content on any of our websites here in the enterprises or even in your local TV market is the weather. When you know with what's going to do today our apps everybody's got the weather app. So then when you put sports into it, you're always are you know is it going to rain. How cool for just for the fan perspective right. Is it going to rain? How cold, How warm? You know, what time's the game? What what's going on with all that stuff. So it's so important. And then when you come in from a competitive perspective, from players to, you know, coaching in the way you game, the way you scheme and then, you know, and then what we do in sports betting, if you are going to place a bet, if you're if you're looking to wager on a game legally and now it's legal, it's legal across, you know, sports betting is legal and more than 30 states across the country, including Washington, D.C. So, you know, if you place a legal ban, you're looking and all that kind of stuff, you want to know, how can I get the best advantage? Right. So where is where is the best advantage? How can I how can I maximize what I know versus what what intangibles are out there in sports? We all know you can't predict. That's why, you know, sports, even even, you know, the underdogs have their day. But in sports betting particularly and in competition, you want to be able to control or at least know about everything that you can and can't control the weather. But if you know going in, how this is going to affect whether if you mentioned baseball, whether it's going to affect the ball fly at the pitching, you know, just kind of how cold or warm it is, all that stuff takes into account. Now, baseball is a little bit different. Football probably is has the most impact. The weather has the most impact, and football, just because you're putting the ball in the air a lot, kicking game planning, how hot, how cold, all has an affect on everybody across across the board. Baseball. It's a little bit different because there's not so much margin going on. There's not you know, you pitch, you hit, you catch. And and I think and I'm not trying to simplify baseball and saying it's less complicated, but I think the impacts on weather are fewer at a baseball game than they would be less than a football game. So but there are some things that do happen that can control that. But it's not so much almost who's going to win or lose because of the weather. It's more on the proposition bet, more of a player bet. How is this pitcher going to perform in the heat? How's this pitcher going to perform when it's raining? How's this batter going to perform at Coors Field in Colorado with thinner altitude versus in Miami, where it's really humid and moist? All the time? How is all that going to play an effect in the proposition bets? And those you know, for anybody who doesn't know what a prop bet is, it's a it's a proposition of a player or a team will do X win or lose. That's that's not a prop. And that's just the MONEYLINE or against the spread over under. You know how many points they'll score you know over this or 100 that. But a prop bet is, let's say, you know, Aaron Judge will hit two home runs tonight, plus or minus. You know, the odds are and if it's minus, you know, 100, that means for every hundred dollars, you bet you get that back. So -100, basically, you have to bet 100 to just stay even to get it to get 100 back. If it's plus. So if it's minus anything in the minus means it's pretty good. That probably going to happen. The odds are that it will happen. Anything in the plus means it's not as likely to happen. So, you know, and that's why you see a lot of these proposition bets at 1.5 instead of two home runs, it's 1.5. So you can't you get two homeruns you pushed. If you bet it's at 1.5 you over one, which is two obviously, or under which is, you know, one or less. So you look at those kind of bets in baseball and how the weather's going to affect you all right. So we're playing in Wrigley Field. The wind's blowing out. It's a day game. You're going to have a better, you know, opportunity to hit home runs versus if you're playing, let's say it at old Candlestick Park in San Francisco will wind swirls and you never know which way it's going to go. So all of that comes into effect, but it's not so much who will win or lose. Yes. And that that all depends. If you got a guy that hits five home runs, chances are that teams can win. But more for the proposition bet more for the player, individual bet, how they're going to perform in the weather and in that time in space. So we can talk a lot more about individual things like that. But overall, I think that's kind of how weather will affect baseball in particular. And, you know, obviously any outdoor sport, an indoor be that as it may, you know how much does the weather affect the indoor. Well there's there's been times where at hockey games weather has affected the ice and you know I remember what the Philly the fliers and I think it was the islanders back in the eighties in a playoff game it was so warm that the condensation was coming up from from from the ice. And it was almost like the fog bubble inside, you know, And, you know, times I remember even in Richmond, Virginia, there was a basketball game played at the old Richmond Coliseum right up the road from where we're at, from where I'm at, I'm at. And they had the ice underneath. They did clear the ice and the ice was too much condensation on the floor. They had to stop the game. I think it was Michigan and UVA. This was back in the in the eighties or nineties where they had to they couldn't play the game because the floor so slippery because the ice was coming coming up through the floorboards. So it happens on indoor events, just less likely, more so than outdoor. Hey, Mike, it's Joe here. And on behalf of everyone, stay in New Jersey. We just want to say you're welcome for having sports betting across the country. Here we were. You guys are the ones who really broke it open. Appreciate it. But. But do questions for a year. Yo, out of all the sports mess that are place, do we have a percentage or a number? How much is placed on baseball? And then my second question is talking about the weather. Right. And I have to imagine oddsmakers are factoring in this weather into play. But I see you know, I've seen a host of Twitter accounts that show where the value is in comparison to what the lines you know, what the lines are placed. As anecdotally, you know, you'd have to talk to a sportsbook to give you the breakdown of how much in every book is different right now since especially since mobile betting legalized where you don't have to go to Atlantic City anymore, you don't have to go to Vegas to place a legal bet. You could do it. You know, you could take your phone out. If you're in a legal state and and download an app, whether it's DraftKings, FanDuel, Caesars, MGM, you know, whatever it is. Even certain states have certain ones Bet365, which is legal in New Jersey and Virginia and Colorado, but nowhere else. So anyway, depending on where you are, you could sit from the comfort of your own home on your phone and place a bet which has increased betting across all sports. You know, we do know anecdotally, at least from doing this the last year, there's more. NFL is the most popular sport to bet. You know the Super Bowl and opening and opening weekend of the NFL are the two most bet days of the calendar year across the board. Now, baseball's a little bit more, I think more maybe more people per capita bet football, but baseball has a lot of you know, I guess it's almost more consistent betting. You know, you got guys that are betting and ladies who are betting on baseball prop bets. You know, every day you got 262 games a year. So probably, you know, pound for pound, that's probably more bets. But I think the popularity of football, college football, NFL, just because it's I think it's a little bit more mainstream for a lot of people to bet and and and it's more popular. You know baseball used to be America's pastime. I'm in the I'm in the camp where now football's America's pastime. But, you know, we will get into that that debate. But I think, you know, if you're betting on 162 games and you have 32, you know, NFL t excuse me, Major League Baseball teams or wherever we're at now, you know, you're going to have more bets per year, per game, Per season in baseball. But again, I think you're seeing more prop bets, more bets on strikeouts with this pitcher strikeout X number of players with this player hit X number of home runs rather than are the Phillies going to be, you know, the Mets tonight just because that money line and the run line is you know, it's it's it's negligible and you're you know, the value that you'll get by betting the Phillies to win is probably not as if you parlayed you know, how many home runs is Bryce Harper going to hit versus you know, how many strikeouts you know, Max. Charles Gosh, I'm sure anyway, I'm I'm not sure that goodness, I get like seven names popped into my head at one time. This is hard. This is. But yeah, so Scherzer strikes out X and Harper hits X, you're going to you can parlays those together and make more because the odds of both of those happening at the same time are less than if the Phillies would win. So all of that to be said. I think you know the the I guess the percentage of bets are what you also like to bet. Do you like to bet? Are you are you a better who just wants to, you know, watch the game and bet you know who's going to win because you get right then you've got a lot of like I think you know emotional ties to that. If you're a fan, you want your team to win. You might place place more bets on them to win versus how this player's going to do. So. It also depends on on what you like. Are you going to go are you going to live back to which the the influx of live betting. Now you can say on your phone and bet the next inning, third inning, how many outs, how many hits, how many strikeouts for both is this? You know, who's going to score first? What's a halftime score going to be in golf? Probably one of my favorite things to do, sit on the couch on a Sunday and just go home for a whole like, all right, is Jon Rahm going to beat Max Homa on this whole today? You know, and and, you know, taking all that into consideration and, you know, it's a it's a pretty, pretty enjoyable way to watch sport, especially if you're not that big of a fan of that sport. I find myself watching more NBA basketball because of individual bets like that than I would if I was just, you know, a casual fan. And Joe, your second question, it escapes me because I talk to my so I completely forgot what that second question is. You kind of intertwine both on him. I was, I guess, my guy. You're fired. I was really kind of wondering, do we have a dollar amount and how much you actually bet on baseball across the country? I don't know. I would know. It's it's pretty significant, I'm sure. Yeah. Mike, you mentioned golf, and that's what I kind of want to talk about. You know, baseball, football, cause they lots of attention, lots of bets going there. But the betting in golf and maybe other outdoor sports like tennis, What can you say about that? And weather's influence? Do you see weather impacting any bets on golf, tennis, other outdoor sports besides baseball and football? Yeah, I mean, I think tennis I think it's a little bit it's harder or something like that. That's smaller space, more confined the way the arenas are. And obviously rain is probably win not so much, maybe a little bit in tennis, but I think I think golf probably is the sport that is most affected by weather. Just on rain versus no. Right. Because now you're talking about with a ball run out on a wet fairway. If I hit the ball, will it stop at plug greens? Green's green speed is a huge deal. You know, if it's colder, the ball's not going to fly, you know, obviously saying that kind of thing with baseball, anytime a ball is in the air for a long period of time, more weather can affect that. You guys know that better than you know. I mean, you guys are that you guys are the meteorologist here. I'm just I just know when I hit a ball high in the air like I was doing yesterday on the golf course and it's 30 mile an hour wind, if I'm hitting it into the wind, is not going as far as I'm hitting it with the wind. Right. So you have to be a genius to figure that out. We saw it in the Masters, too, with the rain. How will the scores be affected at a course that everybody knows? But it's really hard and then it rains, it's colder. How does that affect it versus if you're playing, let's say, the U.S. Open on Father's Day weekend somewhere in southern states where it's nicer, a little bit more humid, the ball travels a little bit further. So it all takes into account. But again, it depends on what kind of bet you want to make. If you want to do a player bet, proposition bet, or if you want to bet overall on a MONEYLINE, who will win or will lose that all that all into consideration. And Joe, you had mentioned, you know, Twitter accounts and everything like that and taking in, how does this affect I think that was part of your second question. There's so much data that goes into it and so much research that goes into this buy by bettors, by people who make the bets, by people who set the lines, by the oddsmakers that go into this. Again, you know, and baseball, as you guys know, has stats like what a left handed batter does on Wednesdays during day games in January or June, I guess whatever you make, you throw it out there. There's a stat for it there. Now, if you're going to bet a lot of I'd bet five or ten bucks maybe I don't dig into that. But if I'm betting five or $10,000, which some people do now, I want to know where am I? You know what? What's the affected? Okay, This is a day game on a Wednesday. How again, educating yourself to be able to place the best bet that you can to maximize your potential of winning. Man It's all about the stats, Mike. That's that's for sure. Now, I want to go back to two prop bets for a minute. How these things you have, these prop bets that are happening almost instantaneously, right? Like the next inning, the next hole to the best of your knowledge, when you have these types of bearish short term bets like this is bet the next 15, 30 minutes and the weather sometimes, you know, change is really, really fast. I mean, we all know that especially in the summertime, in the spring, it could be fine for ten or 15 minutes and then boom, you got a gusty wind and a shower that kicks in for an hour or whatever. But, you know, if those rapidly changing weather conditions are incorporated in some of these prop bets, in these different sportsbooks. So, for example, if I don't know, I'm a meteorologist and I know there's a really good chance a squall line is coming through in the seventh inning and that game is going to be canceled. Do you think the oddsmakers know those things as well? I mean, do you have any inkling about that yet? I'm sure they do. You know, they they've got people who are a lot smarter who do this, have been doing this a long time. And they take a lot of information. And they where they get the information is places like us. Right. So they come to Richmond dot com or the president Lantern City and they say okay what what is Martucci saying today about this weather. Okay so if I'm making an odds, if I'm making a bet, I'm say, okay, what is what is Martucci saying about X? Okay, I'm taking that. Then we're going to say, okay, what is Michael Phillips at Richmond? You know, Richmond Times-Dispatch. What is he writing about this? Let me take all this information because where else are they going to get it? They don't want boots on the ground. So they're reading our information. They're taking all that. They're talking to sources, talking to players, talking to people, not players, but people, you know, as much as they can figure out. And then that's what's educating the lines that they said. And then people are also reading up and saying, okay, how is that going to affect this bet or this situation? I think you got a lot of that happening pregame going in now. I will. What you get in the game sometimes you don't have enough time to to really research a lot of that. Now if you know if you have an insight or if you're paying attention, you know, and you have the ability to check something real quick and make a bet, you know, you're going to you're going to get that. But I think live betting is all kind of about the feel, a feel of the game, how the game's going, the feel about like, okay, it is the wind is blowing. Now we've seen a lot of we've seen, you know, this player every time he gets up, he said that he said, no, you know, it's foul, just barely down the right field line, you know. And so you've seen how the games go in. You're seeing all that and you've taken that in consideration in your life. Bet. Are you just have a gut feel or you are you're chase it right. You lost a big bet in the first inning. Now you're chasing the rest of the game, but trying to make your money back. Right. So you've got a lot of different scenarios happening at the same time. The reason golf is for me kind of fascinating is because you're playing the same course over four days. So by Sunday, I have a pretty good idea of how, let's say Jon Rahm has played the second hole, right? I know he's birdied it three of the last four rounds. I know that, you know, the teams are back now. The wind's blowing downhill. If you watch a golf broadcast, it's all about the wind, all about the direction, all about where the holes cut, all about where the tee boxes are. So now I've got three days of data that I can say just as a novice, just as somebody who's not doing any research on that crunching numbers. And I have a spreadsheet that I'm a abacus out on my protractor, right? I'm just there watching the game, watching the match, and now I can say, Oh, I bet he's going to do this. But if I'm more in-depth in that I've already done my research going into that now I can make more of a feel better of how things are going by for the novice. And that's what really what and again, we're not we're not advocating betting as much as we are saying people are doing it. Lots of people are doing it. Lots of money is being spent doing so. If you are going to do it, here's how we can educate you to make the best bet or to at least inform yourself enough to where you feel comfortable maybe stepping out there if you don't want to. Hey, that's fine too, because you can read our stuff and talk about it at the water cooler. You can get on the podcast with your friends to talk about it. You can go have a beer and say, Oh, guess what severity would you know? It's some of my favorite. Not favorite. Some of the most funny things are is last year when we first started doing this, you know, we launched Super Bowl week of last year and then March Madness was right around the corner. So I filled out my bracket, you know, and I posted online and I everybody. So I was I was hanging out to dinner on a Friday, the Friday night of the week of the first round of the tournament. And a buddy of mine comes up and he's like, Man, I thought you knew what you're talking about. I didn't have time to fill in my bracket, so I just copied yours, have filled it out. You suck. And, you know, and it. And I did it. It was terrible. But he, you know, so it's kind of like you've got you've got people who pay attention to this and they're like, oh, this event is really nobody's talking about though he does it. I keep track of every winner lost and I have then a football season I pick against the field, against the spread and straight out MONEYLINE and you know and so if you go by my picks some weeks, you're happy with me, some weeks you're not. But again, I try to do as much research and educate myself as best possible to provide that, just like you guys do. Right. You're not waking up one day going, Oh, man, it's cloudy. It is probably going around you guys, you know, you guys are doing your research. You have all the tools at your disposal. You know, you've been around the game. I've been around college and professional sports for more than 20 years. So, you know, you mean you kind of get that feel into it and just like, you know, fans, you know, you want some people only bet on the team that they know. Some people that only bet on their team because they're like, I watched this team long enough to know what's going to happen. Yeah, exactly. You really want to have as much information at your disposal as possible. We'll get more into that on the second side of this break to stay with us. We'll be right back with Mike that it's general manager and content director front page BET's your lead enterprises on the Across the Sky podcast. We'll be right back. And we're back on the Across the Sky podcast. Our guests this week, Mike Sweat, its general manager and content director across the hall as we're over it, front page that's here at the Enterprise IT that's our sports and sports betting portal educate, inform and entertain sports fans and the blossoming sports gambling and gaming enterprise. Mike We talked a lot about sports with golf balls, baseball basketballs, footballs. Well, what about auto racing, right? I got to think NASCAR racing is specifically track temperatures, things like that. Do we see much of an impact in the weather impact, knowing how that's going to play out with specific drivers or specific tracks? Any information on that? Yeah, I think, you know, anytime you're talking about 45, 43 vehicles going very, very fast in close proximity to each other, any little change in weather track temperature, tire wedge adjustment, you know, tire pressure is going to affect something massive, right? You get that big speed, that many things happening at one time, one little degree, £1 a wedge, one half a pound of of of torque here, whatever it is, it could have a big impact. We see it a lot, especially at the super speedways like Talladega was two weeks ago. You get the fastest track in NASCAR, two and 5.2 and a half, 2.55 mile track. Right. And the the the drafting and the amount of speed that they can garner up when they're in line with each other, nose to tail. And if you watch it, I mean, they are touching each other going 200 miles an hour. So everything is, you know, you got to take into consideration for an outcome there for safety reasons. One, But then also what car is doing the best in that condition because some cars really run well. One, they're by themselves. Some of them run better in a pack, some of them run better in front, back side left, high line, low line. So all that kind of stuff take into consideration. We talked about the weather, obviously. Are they going to even race? We saw Dover was postponed, you know, the Dover and they said the mastermind was supposed to be Sunday afternoon. He got postponed to Monday. So will they race? They won't race if it's wet, if it's raining, too much danger. They're talking about wet, wet racing conditions with tires and stuff. That's still we have not seen that. And I think if you ask any driver, they don't want to take any more chances out there. Safety hazards, all that kind of stuff. So if it's rain, if it's cloudy, sunny, the track temperature warm up. A lot of things happen when a track goes from day to night and we don't see it in too many races. Charlotte is probably one of the only tracks on Memorial Day weekend that we see. The race starts in the days a 600 mile race, the longest race that they have on the NASCAR circuit, starts in the daytime track. Temperatures are usually a little bit hotter. They're rolling and then it goes to night. Track cools off. You see the track changes to almost two different races at Charlotte from night and day. We saw it even at Richmond. Richmond races used to race at night. Not the best racing cooler track temperatures. Tires would get eaten up a little bit more, kind of somebody would get out front, stay out there, better racing in the day, hotter track temperatures, tires, you know, matter a lot more. So you have you have that. So when are you racing? Are you racing the day? Are you racing at night? Are you racing day into night? We see the Darlington and as well Labor Day, you see a lot of those track temperatures, the early spring races, you know, it's cold out there. How does that affect, you know, in the fall? How does it affect running, you know, a race, you know, in 90 degree, 90 degree heat? And then what? The track temperature is probably 120 inside the car. You know, it's even hotter than that, you see. How does that affect the driver? So there's so much in NASCAR Now when it comes to betting, it's hard to really gauge that unless you're super into it, unless you really geek out. But you can tell talk. Well, I bet you see how a driver or car is doing at a certain track. You go in and saying, this driver's got a lot of success there. Maybe the car's not running real well in the corners. You know, somewhere like Bristol, where you have to have a better turning car into the corner, a smaller track versus a superspeedway like Daytona or Talladega, where you don't have to have much turn. You just have to find the right line and hold it steady. So all out of that comes into play. But you could see that more live than you do pre pre-race going into that because you want to see how that car is going to perform, especially when there's, you know, 40 other cars around it. And Mike, sticking with the racing theme, let's talk about horse racing a little bit because I imagine there's some similarities here, but also some important differences about whether in horse race. Yeah, I mean, you know, track surface like, you know, are they running like they get the Kentucky Derby, the run on dirt and mud, Where they running grass are they running on, you know, what kind of dirt, what kind of sand? You know, all of that plays into a fact. If it's raining muddy vision, how do the horses run? Do they like to get wet or is it hot? How do the horses fare in the heat and when you're talking about again on it's not like the horse can tell you, like, yeah, I feel great today, right? You could tell by how it how just like a car you can't tell how it's going to run until you kind of get out there. Maybe you hear something, you feel something. That's why the jockey is so important. I think in horse racing, we got the Kentucky Derby coming up on Saturday. What's the weather going to be like that for that? How is that going to play even the wind like running into a headwind? How is that going to affect, you know, also, you know, you want to get on the pole too early, you get on the rail, you're in trouble too late. You you've got to make up a lot of ground coming, you know, coming across the field. So all of that plays, plays it into effect. And, you know, you talk about the Kentucky Derby coming, one of the most fun days, one of the most bet days as well, because even if you're not a horse racing fan, you're there. You're like, I'm, you know, throw. And if you bet last year on the longshot to win the Kentucky Derby at 80 to 1 odds. You know nobody did that on purpose by the way they were just doing a up ten bucks on the long shot. But nobody who knew what they were doing actually bet you know, the long shot. And so I think I think you've you have you kind of have again, what bets are you going to make? And then are we going to have some fun? You know, you want to watch the Kentucky Derby, you want to watch a sporting event. It's a little bit more interesting or a lot more interesting if you've got money on it. Right. If you're not bet on it, you know who has it doesn't matter. You throw a couple of bucks down, now you're vested. You want to know, all right, this better win. We do. And so but you look at you also got to look at the history, right? We talked about the dad of horse racing, especially. How do they run? How do they run at this mile? How they run? You know, do they have any other races that we could, you know, look at? What about the jockey? What about, you know, the track conditions, some race better on grass, those kind of things, too. So you're looking at all that information as you go. But, you know, horse but horse racing, you can't bet live post time you're in and whatever. You bet. That's what. You bet. Hey, Mike, talk to us. This is no bother, per se, but tell us about the difference between betting and horse racing. I think it's called parimutuel betting as well. So what you see when you are, you know, betting on baseball or football, you know, you could bet on a horse to win. You can bet on a horse to win place to show which is first, second or third. You can bet trifecta boxes. Where are super factors? You can bet. All right. These three horses are going to finish in the top three somewhere, right? You can bet exact that this horse is going to finish exactly in this position. Right. So and the more you add to that bet, the worse the odds are going to get. So the more payout you could have. So, you know, you in. It's more fun to bet horse racing, in my opinion at the track. Right. The buzz everything's going around you're you know you might have a mint julep or two and you're feeling great. You get to the window and you're like, All right, here we go. Six horse in the seventh race, you know, whatever, whatever. And then you got the, you know, the person behind the counter. If he screwed up, they look at you like you can't make that bet. So that's really kind of intimidating. So you got to know what you're talking about. You got to get in there. But it it's really fun. My brothers and I took my dad two years ago to Kentucky for a bourbon trail tour. Right. We somehow ended up at Churchill Downs on a Friday, you know, matinee race. We somehow found our way to the ticket line and with a few drinks in our hand and had a really good time. Now, had my brothers ever bet on horse racing prior to that? No, because they'd never been to our they had it. They never went in. But since we were there like, oh man, we got a bet. We got we're here, right? So you get caught up in that kind of thing. And I think that's where you start. Talk about the popularity, Sean. You mentioned if you know, the blossoming sports betting world, people are finding out that, you know, if you do it responsibly, you make you make wise choices. You don't get yourself into trouble. You set a limit. All those things. It's fun, You know, it's enjoyable, it's populated. The sports have gotten more popular because of it. I think you're seeing a lot more. You can't watch a sport now without seeing a DraftKings ad or FanDuel ad, and obviously their marketing to that, to that, to those constituents. But they're also because people people are finding like, hey, this is fun and the sports are growing and more people are being evolved in and I think, you know, as long as you do it responsibly and make sure that you set yourself limit, it's fun to do. That's why when I go to a horse track, I carry the cash that I'm going to spend. I leave my wallet in the car because I know, like if I especially if I lose it now, I start chasing. I'm like, Oh man, I got my money back. It's just like you go to the tables of Vegas or Lake City. John Are you, you know, I've been down to the Borgata. You've been sitting there. You know, I get around, I get around and, you know, I'll just say it, You know, you're there. You bet. Long enough. The house is always going to win. So you got to make sure you're setting yourself in position to at least, you know, maximize your losses. Yeah. You know, the one thing I remember when I first went to go was to a casino in Atlantic City when I was 21 years old. Back in the day, I still remember the signs all over the place and and I forget which casino it was, but it was the sign was there. Said bet with your head not over it. Yeah, that. That is what you always have to remember. Get. Don't bet any more than you think you can lose or you plan to lose. A few times I've been to casino, whether it was in Vegas or in a see, this is exactly right. You take this amount of money this is it. After that, the party's over. Go home, spend it wisely, risk it wisely. Else you get into a lot of trouble really fast. I'm like, Shawn, real quick. Just a just a plug for that, though. You know, now, these sports betting mobile apps, they have these parameters on there. They have these you know, it's almost like a it's almost like a child lock. Like if you gave your kid a cell phone, you could lock it down. You can set parameters where you could set a bet limit per day, a number of bets per day. You go in there, you set that stuff. So when you're at your limit, it will let you do any more. And you can't you can't bypass that unless you have the code. But if you're doing it right, have somebody accountability partner, somebody set that up for you. So there are there are these things that I take into account where you can't get in over your head. And so that's why I think it's so regulated. Sports betting is so regulated, especially in New Jersey. Joe You guys got some of the the strictest rules, which I think are really valuable to have because you've been doing it for so long, you know, the pitfalls. But again, you want people to do it responsibly. So the more you regulate it and you could talk about whether it's alcohol or marijuana or anything, regulation is going to really help police some of the stuff where people are doing it anyway. Might as well, if you're going to do it legally, do it responsibly. So it's one of those things, too, where we're Sean to you know, to your point, if you're mobile betting, there are those there are those safety. You know, features on there to help you, you know, really, really be responsible. Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted to to focus in on as we wrap it up for somebody who just is entering this this space, they're curious. They want to get involved, but they're going in kind of they're putting their proverbial toes in the water. Well, as we as we close out, what is some of your suggestion? What are some of the ways they should approach this carefully, tactfully, so it doesn't get out of hand in a hurry? Yeah, I think I think what we just talked about. Right. No, no, your limit. Right. If you are if you are if you struggle with an addictive personality, I think you got to know going in that like you need to make sure that you have some guardrails right for anything. Right. Like, you know, don't drink. You drive right. Just stupid. Not stupid, but just baseline rules of like, you know, don't be dumb. Right? And so I think there's you got that. But I think also, you know know what? You know what you're doing right? If you are if you don't know about a lot about a sport, maybe watch it, figure it out. Try to educate yourself as best as possible before you put before you put money down on it. And I think, you know, it's just being responsible, educating yourself, making sure that you're not that. And also don't do it in the dark. Make sure people know, you know, don't try not to hide things. You know, things that are in the light tend to stay in the light and tend to have a lot more of a of a better outcome where people can ask you about it and those type of things and and seek help if you find yourself, you know, in a position in chasing is one of the things we kind of joke about. But you know, if you lose early, you know, it's probably best not to chase, right? You go to it, you go to the casino. You bet. Place a bet. You take your money in there, you lose it in the first 5 minutes. You know that that that's a that's a tough that's a tough pillar for a lot of us to swallow. Hey, I'm in Vegas for the next three days. I lost all my money in the first 45 minutes. Well, you didn't have a plan. Have a plan going there saying, here's the deal. It's kind of like I tell my kids right before you go out, already know what you're going to do if you find yourself in a situation, right. You got to have a plan. You got to make sure that you're you have an exit plan, you have a plan to talk to. And if you do, what happens if you win, right? That not just lose, but what happens if you win? And you got to know when you know, Kenny Rogers was alive, You got no one to hold him. No one to fault him. Because if you stay long enough, you're going to you're going to lose. And so I think that's why you just got to be be smart, talk about it, educate yourself. You know, listen, stuff like this, this is the again, there's plenty of podcast, there's plenty of information out there about about sports betting, but also about how to make sure that you're doing it responsibly. So so just do that, you know, and and don't don't, don't. And the other thing I'll say is don't take my March Madness picks. So many other thing what you said there have a plan that is something that is very good for all kind of risk. Right. Well, because all risk is gambling. There is risk in the world, whether it's weather risk, whether it's sports gaming risk. There is risk. Have a plan B ready for whatever is out there and so that you are prepared when it does hit, whether it's good or bad. Mike, for we wrap up, where could people find out more about front page bets? All right, front page, Pets.com, all one word, front page, Pets.com. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. That front page bets. You know, it's just we've been doing this a little bit more than a year here. Lee Enterprises would grow an audience for having a lot of fun with it. You know, we're getting really good feedback and so I'm excited about it set about, you know, educating, informing people, having fun too, as well. Doing podcasts like this, doing videos that we do, you know, it's really fun. And sports just must be fun, right? And especially, you know, when you take the weather in consideration, there's a lot of times that weather is is not fun. And it's it's you know, there's there's a lot of things that can go wrong. Same thing in sports betting. But, you know, we're here to educate and we're here to inform you guys. And so just like these fine meteorologists that that are on with me, you guys, you know, I check out shorts. You know, I live in Richmond. I check out Shaun every morning as weather video. What I what do I need to do? And so I just I really appreciate you guys having us on in front page BET.com and on social from page bats and you know we hope to see you guys soon. Thanks Mike so much. So much good information for those getting into this space, understanding this space, because it can be overwhelming. So thanks so much. We will talk to you again soon, Mike, Our guys, thanks a lot. So I learned a lot from that interview, that discussion with Mike. You know, I had not thought about that much with tennis and golf. As we said at the outset, the classic baseball and football immediately come to mind. But I really had not thought about those those immediate bets during a golf tournament, guys. Yeah. So in other words, interesting. I actually really like the NASCAR, what with the difference in the track between a day and night. Am I like a big NASCAR fan? But I didn't I didn't realize the impact that the day and night time timing had on, you know, the track conditions and how you bet for it as a result. So I thought that was pretty cool. I tell you what, I'm not a big sports better. I did it once when I went to the Kentucky Derby, I had to place a bet being at the Kentucky Derby. I've also done it a couple of times when I've been to Vegas, just because, you know you're in Vegas and got a bet. Let's do some sports betting. College football, that was kind of fun. But every time I've done it, I have I've not well, I've won, but I placed multiple bets and that's where I've I fail and I lose money. So I am not a big sports bettor. And boy, after listening to Mike, I'm more intimidated now, thinking about all the different things and all the ways whether it could impact the outcome. I'm like, now that I'm making the right choice and not engaged on it, that's sports betting on a regular basis. It would not end well for me. Yeah, as you said, got to be very careful. This stuff has gotten so big so fast. If you don't go into this very carefully and very deliberately, it can take hold of you and go go very bad. So his his recommendations are certainly, certainly well taken as I'm like you. I mean, I used to be much more of a big sports head when I was in my twenties and very early thirties, but I just don't pay as much attention as I used to. So the temptation is there for me. I you know, I do the occasional football wagering, but but this is not that is not that big. Certainly not as big as it is. Jersey there. Mr. Martucci Hey, listen, man, I'm going to grill I have a group chat with like nine of us today, and there's a lot of sports betting talk, and I think it's just a different Yeah, we're just used to it, you know, with Atlantic City here for so long, it's just. It's just a different way of life. But I have to ask you, Sean, what is what what determines very early thirties? And I'm wondering if I'm exiting that that scope of very early thirties, I'm going to say 32 after 32. You're not in your early thirties anymore, you toward the mid-thirties. Okay. All right. So I got another year because I'm 31 now. You know, the other thing, like I'm like sport is you also don't have children, at least not yet. And that will take up a lot of time if you and Seany decide to go in that direction. Yes. That also takes up a lot of time that I used to use a lot of brain cells I used to use to pay attention to sports. I had to start paying attention to to two small, small children. Right. So that's another big thing, right? I do that, you know, one thing, too, and I forgot to ask him whether impacting the hot dog eating contest on 4th of July, that makes dinosaurs shaking his head at me. I'm telling you, there's a difference. And I think I'm going to reach out to majorly eating. I think we're going to do a podcast on that. We're going to see. But there's something there because you can bet on the hot dog eating contest, too. You know, there are lines out there. That's nasty. I'm sorry. That's nothing nasty. I can't watch that stuff. I can't I mean, if they all want to do it, knock that stuff out there. But that might be a lucky one. As to what they do to that, though, the pods you get the pod bones in the one is that me? And I'd rather do almost anything else a nap. It's just off and that's enjoyable at all. I go, Oh man, I mean, no. My gosh. So okay, let's wrap this up as I don't want to I don't want to get into that any. We've got some cool things coming up in the pipeline. Tropical cyclones in the Mediterranean Sea. We don't think a lot about hurricane formations, tropical type formations and the Mediterranean. We'd be talking about that in the coming weeks. And also we've got a guest in the pipeline from Penn State who has been studying for ever. So we're going to talk about hail in the weeks to come. So lots of good stuff coming up there in the next coming a few weeks here on the Across the Sky podcast. But for now, with my colleagues in Atlantic City, Joe Martucci, Matt Holiner in Chicago, our meteorologist Sean Sublette at the Richmond Times Dispatch in Richmond, Virginia. Thanks for joining us on the Across the Sky podcast.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode features a conversation between Joe Dulac from the class of 1990 and Ely Bueno from the class of 1998. Joe and Ely first met because they went through the New Hampshire Dartmouth Family Medicine Residency Program at Concord Hospital. They have stayed in touch since then, but reconnected in a meaningful way during the COVID-19 pandemic. Their conversation showcases how the mission of Holy Cross and the lessons learned during their time on the Hill helped to support them in living a life of meaning and purpose in service of others. Interview originally recorded in May 2022. --- Joe: We were going to just stay home during a pandemic or we were going to step up and figure out... Honestly, the choice was close down the practice and maybe we'll open up in a few months or we're going to figure out a way to reopen and serve our patients. Maura Sweeney: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. This episode features a conversation between Joe Dulac from the class of 1990 and Ely Bueno from the class of 1998. Joe and Ely first met because they went through the New Hampshire Dartmouth Family Medicine Residency Program at Concord Hospital. They have stayed in touch since then, but reconnected in a meaningful way during the COVID-19 pandemic. This conversation offered Ely a chance to ask Joe questions to learn more about his professional journey, which included the opportunity to open and build a practice from scratch. It also gave them a chance to reflect on their past, discover shared connections and process everything they went through over the past few years. In particular, they speak about the challenges that doctors faced during the pandemic and how they lifted each other up during difficult times. Their conversation showcases how the mission of Holy Cross and the lessons learned during their time on the Hill helped to support them in living a life of meaning and purpose in service of others. Ely: Joe, thanks so much for agreeing to do this interview in this format. It comes from a place of deep gratitude for your professional contact and your friendship over the several years that we've known each other. And so now we get to dive in. Joe: Great. This is a great opportunity to meet with you and try something new, right? Ely: Yeah, definitely. And now, did you ever go on the spiritual exercises in Holy Cross, Joe? Joe: Right. Did a lot of things at Holy Cross, and so did do the one-week silent retreat in Narragansett, Rhode Island, which... it was very powerful, of course. Ely: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Quite an experience. Ely: Yeah. So I also attended, and I think as we start invoking that Ignatian spirit of really the deep sense of giving of ourselves for others in contemplation, in meeting God through story, this is really a great opportunity that Maura has for us as alumni to connect and tell our story. So I'm really eager to hear about yours. And so diving right in, tell me about how you got to where you are now from Holy Cross and beyond. Joe: Okay, sure. Certainly, I always talk about paths being not really straight. You think you're going to go on a straight path and then path kind of zigzags. So to get to Holy Cross, so I was Chelmsford High School and was very interested in sciences and was accepted into Holy Cross for chemistry pre-med. And obviously that was challenging and stimulating. And so I went through the process there with all the pre-meds and the basic science and chemistry. And there was a time where there was a choice between being a chem major, going to chem grad school or going to med school. And so there was a time where there was some uncertainty, the path that I might take. So a lot of the professors were very supportive, really of either path. But because I was a chem major, I think they were very supportive of the chemistry track. So I did do research in the summer with Holy Cross and with Dr. Ditzer, and enjoyed that, but still found myself interested in the pre-med track. So I applied and went through all the steps with the MCATs. Did have some struggles in my junior year, so I did have a little bit more of a crooked path after that. So I did a year of grad school. I was going to go into Georgetown, but found that Boston University had a program on medical sciences, and I got accepted from that program and into the med school there. And so my first year was doing a thesis, but I was able to take several medical school courses including gross anatomy and neurosciences and physiology. So that really helped solidify what I wanted to do in the path. And though I had a little bit of struggles in my junior year in grad school and in med school. Well, the first year of grad school, my professors had remarked that I had caught fire academically and kind of on a tear. So the path was kind of a little bit crooked there. But once I settled in at Boston University after Holy Cross, the medical sciences just kind of took over and it's kind of a labor of love, learning and staying up late and being on call and all that. So I was at the Boston Medical Center there in Boston University, which was really interesting time because they were building the new hospital. So halfway through training, they completed the hospital there and then they crushed it down to smithereens. But in one day we basically were in the old hospital and the next day we were in the new hospital. And so that was really great training through the basic sciences at Holy Cross and experiences there. And then I was looking into residencies and as would have it, I had applied to a lot in the New England area for residencies for family medicine. And I had gotten a scholarship in Lowell with the Mass Medical Society and John Janice and his family, one of the doctors in the family was starting the residency in Concord and Lebanon, New Hampshire. And he said, "Hey, I'm going to give you the scholarship, but maybe you should consider our program." And so I applied and matched. And so I ended up in Concord and mostly Concord and Lebanon for family medicine. And it was the very first year of the program, which probably better I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. The program was really good, but as a first kind of run through, what I didn't understand at the time was that though you're a resident, you're basically a faculty member because you're developing all the programs everywhere. Every program, every rotation was the first time they ever had a resident or any kind of training. So that was a different kind of experience as well. Ely: I have some questions about your residency challenges. How much did you do in the bigger hospital in Lebanon? Joe: I did several rotations up in Lebanon, which were great. So I did a lot of pediatrics there with Chad. So that was our big pediatric kind of connection. And then I actually did obstetrics in Augusta, Maine because at the time... I'm not sure if you're trained for OB as well, but they wanted us to be fully trained for OB, which I was. So I did an OB rotation. I made that happen in Augusta, Maine, which was really interesting, delivering babies out. It's the state capital, but it's still kind of rural actually. And then I did also make a OB rotation in Beverly, Mass. And that was very developmental because no one had ever been there before. And then I did sports medicine, I made some sports medicine rotations in Portland, Maine. So those were interesting. And then I did put together a holistic herbal experience with Ascutney mountain and the herbalist. So that was up near the Lebanon area, but for pediatrics, I think I did a few months at Chad. So it was great being up there at that hospital too. Yeah, the Dartmouth Hitchcock Hospital is a really fantastic place to train. Ely: Yeah. I am very proud of our family medicine residency program. By the time that I had arrived in Concord, it was exclusively at Concord Hospital, so all rotations were there. And I did high risk OB rotation in Nashua, New Hampshire, and some of the main Dartmouth residents came to our program to do some rotations or came down to Nashua to do some rotations. So that kind of relationship with other hospitals in the area were nice to be able to have established from relationships that you guys forged. So that has always been a nice part about learning in community. Joe: Well, I know we had touched base about that, and I remember having mixed feelings about the training and starting a new program. I remember you mentioning to me one time how you felt that the program was really excellent and that you had gotten really well-trained there. I know the training was definitely good in terms of experiences because even though it's not necessarily big city, Concord is the state capital again of New Hampshire, but still a lot of it's rural, a lot of rural type of problems. At the time, at least, I don't know how it was by the time you got there, but still a lot of patients had hadn't had access to doctors in a long time. So most of the illness that we would see as residents were actually advanced and surprising, patients with really far along illnesses that you're kind of surprised that they could just still be walking around with that situation. Yeah. Ely: Yes, definitely. That kind of establishing disease management and identifying severe disease was really was an important part of training. And I think, yes, Concord is a catchment area for that area. And Concord Hospital's Family Health Center is a federally qualified health center, much like where you work in East Boston currently, but there were a lot of social workers that helped. So there was definitely this sense of team effort to help engage people's health and work together. So that was a really good part. That's what I really liked about the training is that I learned from our pharmacists, from our social workers and other community health workers. So that was a good part of the training there. And it sounds like that helped you establish your career with in Dracut because you started your clinic there. Joe: I think all experiences eventually helped you later on for sure. So you're right, in Concord starting the residency program, I guess to some degree I wasn't scared to start a practice. So I guess there's that component of it. But though after I finished with the residency program that you also attended, then I returned back to my hometown in Chelmsford. And so when I finished, I went and had physical make sure that I also checked on my health. And so at that time I had gotten a physical in Chelmsford, the doctor that there was working with some other doctors and offered me a job in their clinic. And I said, "well, I'm just here for a physical, I don't think I want-" Ely: You got a job. Joe: Yeah, "don't think I want a whole job, but my physical must have been good." Ely: God bless family medicine, we do it all. Joe: So I did work a couple years in my hometown in Chelmsford in Drum Hill with Dr. Gamasis. And then actually I went back into New Hampshire. So when Michelle and I were married, we moved up to New Hampshire and then I worked with Wentworth-Douglass Hospital doing family medicine. And at that time, certainly most of the career up until that point and even after was fall spectrum. So when I worked in Chelmsford, it was inpatient medicine, outpatient medicine, ICU care, the rehabs, home care. So it was a lot. And so we would admit patients to the hospital, we would follow them and also do ICU care, and that was very satisfying. But it's a different world than it certainly is now in terms of, I suppose, expectations, acuity, the length of stay. I don't think it's even possible to do both now, but we did. And so I did that up in Concord and then actually we put a hospitalist program in there, which was actually very controversial, and then we ended up just transitioning to outpatient medicine. So then in 2007, I actually came back down to the area of Merrimack Valley with Saints Medical Center. They were near and dear to my heart because I had still been on staff there and they were looking to open practices and they said, "hey, can you open one of practice for us in Dracut?" And I said, that sounds really exciting because for me as a physician, I've always enjoyed obviously seeing patients and being in different environments. But one thing that you may never have an opportunity to do is to start a practice. And as a physician, starting a practice means you can really put your own personality into it and you're not inheriting necessarily a practice that's already there, or maybe another doctor's patient with maybe their style of medicine. So that was really exciting for me to be able to do that. And so the cool part about that situation was they also wanted me to be involved in the design build of the practice, which was super exciting. I didn't know anything about architect work or designing anything. So that was really exciting. And then we opened the practice and we had no patients. Day one, no patients, which is different than a lot of scenarios. So that was exciting and scary at the same time. Ely: Well, the natural question now I have is how did you recruit patients? Joe: Gosh, that was exciting time too. So a couple things, you just never know how life's going to go. So while we were doing this project, it was supposed to start in 2007, but it was delayed. So I had left the job in New Hampshire, came down, and they said, okay, unfortunately it's going to take longer than we expected. We're going to put you at the walk-in clinic for the year that we're going to get all this project going. And that was in Lowell. So I had never done urgent care medicine, so it's a little different and exciting and somewhat scary too, actually at times. And so I did that for a year. And there was a doctor that Dr. Bousquet who was a really wonderful doctor and a friend, so he must have known his life path what it was going to be. So he basically introduced me to so many people, so many patients. Even though he was kind of retired, they would still come to the clinic and he'd do kind of a primary care situation for them and then he would introduce them to me. And so I wasn't even really kind of aware of that was what was happening. And then so when I opened the practice, I did have actually a core of patients, which was really nice. And then we just did a lot of different things. So we went to every possible event that they had. So we went to job fairs where they wanted medical people. We went to the old home day in Dracut. I went to the Dracut baseball night, the comedy night, the fundraisers, whatever just to meet people. So that summer was really interesting. So we had no patients and then we slowly developed patients. I just basically stayed on a call every day, which wasn't as bad as it sounds, but when you have a startup practice, it's kind of neat to be on call all the time because then you're connecting with the patients very, very well. And then we had excellent people. So basically, there were three of us. So the three of us basically started the start of the office. So it was kind of exciting times. Yeah. Ely: That is quite a journey and a lot of legwork goes into building a practice in terms of just building the relationships you had with Dr. Bousquet. And so I am curious though, just as much as you were really involved in the community, if you can talk about it, how did it impact the way you and your family were developing? How did that balance work with being on call all the time and having all these obligations with work? How did you- Joe: It worked out in some ways. So though at the time, and actually still now, so we live way up in almost near Portsmouth, New Hampshire, but the practice was in Dracut, but again, this is kind of how crooked lines work and nothing's ever kind of straightforward. So we're both from that area. So she's from Lowell, I'm from Chelmsford, so we have family there. So though it was challenging in some ways to be here and there, it also was doable because for instance, her mom lives there. Her mom lives right down the street. And then my parents live in Chelmsford, and then my brothers live in Nashua and Chelmsford. So I think if it was a different location, it probably wouldn't have worked, but I could check on her mom, I can check on my parents, I can see my brothers. So that was nice. And then we could stay there. We could stay there on the night or the weekend. So that worked out really well. And then starting a practice also meant that I had flexibility because I could tell patients to come at seven o'clock in the morning, they could call me. So there was a lot of flexibility and that allowed me to have time to coach baseball and soccer and flag football. And so I guess it just kind of worked out because I guess you wanted it to, if you wanted it to work out. There were times it was hard. So I coached a lot of baseball, and so I even started sometimes at 6:00 AM and then would try to complete by early afternoon and then kind of rush home and then run some baseball drills, run the practices or the games or whatever. So I guess it just eventually worked out. But I think having some creativity in it and then having it be my own entity was really exciting. You have a lot of ownership in it and you can make things work, I suppose. And I really enjoyed having a personal connection to the patients that allows them to tell me that the schedule doesn't work for them, for instance, and they need something, and I can say, well, why don't you just come in at 7:30 and I'll do your physical then, things like that, which is to me is very, very satisfying 'cause the patient obviously needs certain things and I can know what those are. And then having some flexibility allows you to meet that need and you feel like, okay, that's why I'm actually here. Ely: Yes. Joe: Yeah. Ely: Well... you did... you say... it's amaze... I love hearing about this story and it's just different than mine. I also had a zigzaggy kind of path to medicine. But what I really am getting the sense of, Joe, is that you worked really hard to create your network, your family, really, work family, and then you really worked hard with your wife to build a network and a team that supported both of you, all of you. And if we don't really have a supporting team around us, it just can't work. And that's really a wonderful thing that you had and have currently. But I can imagine the shift in the culture of medicine and the way it's been managed provides some challenges now too. How have the rules changed around you in terms of management? Joe: Those are really great questions. And I guess it's easy to just gloss over the past and think, okay, gosh, everything was just really rosy, but it's not, it's not always rosy. So currently I think I'm way more satisfied than probably I have been in maybe in a long time. And I think some of that is because, like you were mentioning about working with people or networking, I think a lot of it is because the other doctor in the practice and also another doctor that also is there, we worked together to create the systems. Again, not to maybe speak poorly about systems, but we were in systems thinking, this is not really kind of what we're thinking or this is not actually functioning how we want it to function. Oh, okay, so you're feeling the same way as me and you're feeling the same way. And then, okay, let's express that. So we actually met a lot. It's changed even over the COVID, but we met a lot as doctors to talk about what we thought about medicine, what we thought about and how things should go, and then why it was or wasn't at that point. So I think at some point we just became leaders of our own own destiny. Now that doesn't always come easy. Sometimes you got to fight for that and sometimes it just works out. Certainly to your point, and I've kind of learned this kind of the hard way over time, I think joining forces with people is way more effective than just being the only person that maybe is complaining about something or that wants something to change. If you have two or three people that you work well with and you talk about things and you actually make sense, it's going to go good places, right? Ely: Agreed. Joe: Hopefully. Ely: Yes. Joe: Hopefully. Ely: Well, collaboration always brings some good fruits. And I would have to say, I really felt like over COVID, as we progress in this age of COVID, I'll just say it's really the pandemic continues, let's remind each other, and- Joe: It is continuing. Ely: ... it continues. But I feel like throughout COVID, I would often send a little message out to you in a way that helped me process what was going on. And the confusion about how we were operating or guidelines, miscommunications or communications about certain guidelines that were changing daily and they still really are, but I felt like having someone to vent about stuff that was changing was very helpful. So I again want to thank you for that. And I think that it helped me just advocate for what was going around in my situation. So thank you for that. Joe: Yeah, I'm glad that we connected because though there were three doctors in my practice, there was a time where we were either not working in the office at all or we were all remote and not really even seeing each other. And then at some point, yeah, there was an isolation, even though the physicians and medical staff. And so I think though it feels like I helped you, you secretly helped me kind of realize that I was doing some of the right things or thinking of the right things or I wasn't kind of off base thinking about the same things that you were thinking. And I may have told you yeah, you're right. But I might have also been secretly questioning it too. So I think, like you said, kind of connecting is definitely powerful. And I can't even take credit for all of that because though I was doing the family medicine in Dracut, I was also blessed to be a part of the East Boston clinic and some of the doctors there are also very amazing and they do different things. And so one of the doctors I worked with there, he gets deployed for disasters. And so he had gotten actually deployed from our pediatric kind of practice there to the very, very first COVID response unit in California when they had the cruise ship and they had 300 patients and they had no place to put these people. Kim and his crew went out there. So he had already been in the thick of it. I think that was December maybe 2019 or something. So he had already been in the thick of it and he came back and then I just remember learning so much from him and then thinking, okay, you have to be organized, you do have to have protocols, and you do need certain things. You need PPE, you need testing, and whether you can get those things or not, or if people are going to support you, you actually do need it. So advocating for those things, super important. And maybe you couldn't get everything you wanted. We couldn't get any N95 masks, but the other doctor that was in the practice had had the forethought of buying them. So we actually bought our own. And they weren't that great really, but they worked. And then, strangely enough, we were able to repair them. So I actually did a lot of glue gunning for several months of the masks because I didn't have another one. So it's kind of exciting in some ways to make things work, right? Ely: Yes. And being in medicine during the pandemic really made us either just dig our heels in and say, we're staying, we've got this, we have to do this, we have to do something. Whether it is in actually facing COVID patients in the hospital or out in the field, so to speak, in outpatient field of we have to deliver care, whether that it was telemedicine or in office eventually, and how we're we going to be able to do that and getting those PPE, for those listening, personal protective equipment. I think now we probably know that that's probably colloquial more so than just a medical term, but yeah, we have come a long way. And then to really sit and talk with you now about, man, that was some tough times over the last couple of years specifically. I'm listening to your story. I'm really curious and very enthralled with your development of your practice, but also just knowing what we have shared together in our health system with what we went through in the last two years. That was a lot. And it's still really tough. So I'm glad we're, we're still going, but it is difficult. Are you feeling the same way about that? Joe: Well, it's very much a people profession and it's a caring profession, and I think we get energy off of each other. So your excitement, enthusiasm, and even your positive feedback helps to really motivate me and other people. And so I think that was one of the really exciting things about the pandemic. Sure, I could probably look back and have a lot of mixed feelings about different things, but I think one of the things that was really amazing was the administration kind of apparatus really froze up. And the clinical people, we basically had to rise up because it was either we were going to just stay home during the pandemic or we were going to step up and figure out... Honestly, the choice was close down the practice and maybe we'll open up in a few months or we're going to figure out a way to reopen and serve our patients. So that was the choice, and that was really the clinical leadership. A hundred percent. We even developed how we were going to screen patients and then for the limited testing initially what we were going to do. And then as testing became more available, what were we going to do, what questions we were going to ask patients, when were they going to be permitted in the office? All that stuff we had to figure out and then we just did it. So thought that was really exciting actually. So I guess to answer your question, compared to sometimes when you feel really just maybe you're not making a difference, this period has kind of felt like more like we're making a difference. So things do kind of get tiring, the electronic medical systems can get tiring and charting, and there are some mundane things. And I think also the other thing is the more that we're in charge, I think of the healthcare system, and even simple things like how we're going to do our schedule, it's really empowering. I guess that's some of the things that came out of it. Ely: Thank you for that perspective, because that learning by doing is precisely why I chose family medicine. And really the impetus for me to be just actively doing in medicine was why I then pursued a career in medicine. And so just to be reminded of that is exactly what we are doing. This is our calling to do it, and we are here to serve. And as difficult as it is, that's what we do and we do it the best. And yes, leadership comes in all form, including administration, and there's certainly guidelines and rules that we may admonish at times, but really it's an honor and our privilege to be able to help others and live out the dream we all had of becoming physicians and being able to realize that in the work that we do. So thanks. Joe: You're welcome. And it did really feel like patients really did need us. So for two years, there were times where we're running all kinds of tests for coronavirus, then helping patients with, are you going to be able to work? And for how long? And who's going to write those letters? And then when can you go back and well, maybe you're not actually doing all that well, so maybe we should run x-rays and labs and send you to the hospital and now working with some of these other therapeutics and whatnot. So yeah, I think there's a lot of components where the family medicine, you can really just jump right in. Yeah, you're right. And then you're also right too, where it's not all rosy. There are a lot of things that can get in between those things that we really want to do for patients and how we want to feel about our calling. Ely: It's not all rosy, but then again, really, I welcome the challenge. If I had to go back into where our education had formed us at Holy Cross, the challenges that we had in terms of asking the question, and this is really for me, formed from this first year program that is now the Montserrat program that I was part of. But this question of how then shall we live in this world of COVID there are constant changes and rules, how then shall we live and then dot, dot, dot as physicians, as humans, as a mother, as a father. So I think it really is a unique way of looking at where we are through the lens of having a Holy Cross Jesuit education. Joe: Absolutely. There are so many experiences during the time there that totally prepares you for a career in medicine, in family medicine, or even just caring for people. There's so many things. The list is just endless of events and experiences for sure. I had what they call a SPUD... suburban, I'm not sure of all the acronyms there. Ely: Program for Urban Development something. Joe: We had so much fun, we did so many different things. And I just remember taking him to the... I think it's the pub there where there's the bowling alley. We had a bowling alley on campus, we used to do that a lot and other fun events. But yeah, there was just a lot of good experiences. One of the things that I think was also really excellent too was I went for one of the breaks at the Appalachia Mountain. I don't know if that was going on when you were there. So I went to Kentucky Mountain Housing and that was I think about 10 days. And so that was really amazing experience. So not only were we serving others, and then we were building some houses up in Appalachia in Kentucky, but we had to work together as a team. So that was probably one of the early experiences of really team building. So we had several bands, I don't even know how many were in each band, 10 or 12 people in the band. And basically we were responsible for the budget and getting all our stuff and then getting there. So we had to meet in Virginia or something and then continue on. So I just remember we had to decide who was going to drive and when and what shifts, and then how we were going to do our meals and who was going to cook it and when and who was going to clean up, and then who was going to do what kind of jobs on the site there. So that was really amazing experience. And then of course, interacting with people in Appalachia and helping them build houses and learning about their life experiences was, I think that's obviously a really amazing experience. And it's very, very similar to being a physician, except not building a house typically, but you're interacting with people and connecting with them where they are. So that was definitely a formative experience and I'm really grateful I was able to do that. Ely: What I want to ask you, because now you're in a position of having one of your kids going to start at Holy Cross, do you have any certain expectations for her experience at Holy Cross? Joe: Yeah, no, thank you for mentioning that. Yeah, Olivia will be a freshman this fall, and she plans on the bio pre-med track or health professions track. And so yeah, super excited for her. I'm overjoyed. For both of my children, I often brought them to different Holy Cross events. And for Olivia, we did the move in together. Well, not her move in, but we helped the students move in about five years ago. And then we've done several Holy Cross cares days, and then we've gone to reunions or football games or things. So I was always hopeful that she would have an interest and since I've been there a million years ago, the campus, it changed so much. They've just added so many wonderful things and buildings and upgraded just everything. So I was more than excited for her to consider it. And I'm really hopeful that she has a lot of the experiences that I had or even more. And so what I had wanted for her is not just go someplace and just do science, just be in the lab, just doing science by yourself, with your head down. I really wanted for her to have a real well-rounded experience and really develop other parts of her person as well. And I really wanted that for her. So I'm really hopeful that she sees it that way too. And she's very interested in the science building there. So we had to go look during all of her tours, specifically at the science buildings, even though lots of campuses in the United States are nice, the science building may not be nice. It may not be where they focus. So we went there and the newly kind of renamed Fauci Center definitely looked like it had gotten a lot of attention and would be a good place to learn. So yeah, I'm just really hopeful that she may find experiences like I did, or even different ones, even different ones. I was on the campus ministry there. And I found that to be really amazing, the 10 o'clock masses. And I walked on the football team for two years and was in a great dorm and had a lot of great experiences and a lot of great memories and friendships. Yeah, so I was hoping that she would get a lot of those experiences. So can I ask you about your recent career situation? Ely: Oh, sure. Joe: Because you're making some changes. Ely: Yes. So I would have to say the challenges of COVID and the challenges of parenthood, specifically motherhood, have put my focus on how to best be at home and do the work that I do. So being in the office, in the clinic, taking care of patients is truly rewarding. And I wouldn't change the opportunity for the world. But moving forward, I think I needed to step out of that in clinic role. And so now I've chosen a path to do telemedicine, and I'm very excited about developing my role as a communicator on the phone or by video and listening to patients. And that role won't change, but how I listen and how I engage with patients will be a little bit different and I'll have to hone in those skills. So I am looking forward to it. And I have a few weeks off before then. Joe: Well, I'm excited for you. So we've almost followed the same pathway, but now you're going a different pathway, because we both went to Holy Cross and we both went to New Hampshire Dartmouth residency and we both were urgent care in Merrimack Valley and Primary Care. But now you're going a different paths. Ely: Yes. Well, the zigzags of our paths have crossed many times in one way or another, and I'm sure they'll continue to cross, and hopefully that will continue. Joe: No, I think it's good 'cause I think our energy kind of feeds off of each other and our experiences or even just sometimes questioning kind of feeds off each other. And I think it's really positive. And I find that as I'm getting older and I actually think about what makes me tick, I think interacting with doctors and nurse practitioners and physicians assistants in the course of doing your work is extremely rewarding. And I really enjoy it. And so I do a lot of work in East Boston and a lot of times in the emergency room, and there's several doctors or some doctors and nurse practitioners, and I never really can really put my finger on why I enjoyed it, but I just really enjoyed being together with four or five doctors. It's amazing. You can talk to someone who has major differences in their life experiences or the clinical experiences, and you can just talk to them like right there, hey, I'm doing this for this patient, and what do you do? It's just amazing wealth. It really can help to develop just your satisfaction. But I do want to mention something, and I don't really know how to say it, but I think you brought up and there are, I think, unique challenges to being a male physician and a female physician. And I think with COVID and the additional responsibilities, it's really complicated. You could speak to this more than I, but I think as a female physician or a female nurse, you're also expected to take care of your kids when they're sick, which they're sick a lot with the COVID or not COVID or finding out if they have COVID. So what I've also observed is that the intensity of the responsibility is huge for women in clinical positions, and COVID just has made that so much more apparent and intense. So I understand maybe why you're making some changes there, but obviously you know more than I how that all works. Ely: I really appreciate the acknowledgement of the role of mothers in medicine and fathers have equally distinct roles in managing family life. So for some reason, for me, it has fallen on me to really be at home when they are sick or in quarantine. And it's something that I don't obviously mind doing, I love my children, and I just want to be able to show up for my family, myself and my patients equally as strong. And in my most recent role, I wasn't always feeling like I could do that and for one way or another. And it's not the fault of the system or the role itself, it just happened to play out that way. However, I did find some agency in looking at other options and voila, COVID opened a lot of doors to telemedicine and other opportunities for physicians to practice. So that was a fringe benefit, if I could even say a benefit of the pandemic was some doors that opened. So I felt enough agency to be able to walk through that door, and that was not because I was suffering, that was because there was a lot of strength that came from learning from my colleagues in my previous role. So I have a lot of good feelings for where I came from and a lot of excitement for where I'm going. Joe: I know, I think it's really wonderful and fantastic, and I'm glad that you acknowledged the unique pressures or stresses that you've felt 'cause I don't think they're unique to yourself. And so I'm glad that you've articulated that. And what I always think is by the time you've become a doctor and you've done all the amazing steps to get there, and then you're connecting with patients, to feel like for some reason you can't do that work because of whatever, because of schedule, because you want to also be there for your family or whatever systems things, and to think that maybe someone might actually leave the career altogether, it's really upsetting to me because it's usually the people that are the most caring and connected because you've given out so much of your energy and you just realize it's not working out. So kudos to you to try to figure out a way to keep all that amazing energy, like caring for patients. So I'm glad that you've figured out a path. Ely: Thank you. Joe: Yeah, it's exciting. Yeah, because I know you'll be back doing family medicine at some point in person, that's why I'm saying that. Ely: Yes. Well, my roots in community are very strong. And so to really hear your story of community building, it restores my faith in the progress of medicine and in the intensity of how we serve each other. So again, I cannot say thank you enough. Joe: Well, thank you to you too. Ely: The way I would love to close the interview is to say one thing that you are really excited about the future of family medicine. And I think I'm excited about the continued relationship building and the connection with colleagues as well as patients because if we are stronger as providers, as physicians, then I think that really only encourages our patients to become stronger and to have their agency to take care of their health. And really healthy communities, healthy families are what the drive to family medicine is. And so I'm really excited about that, that relationship is going to continue and get even stronger. How about you? Joe: I think you're right about that. And in the perspective of my path is that training in Boston in the '90s, family medicine was not at all desirable. And so you had to actually leave the city at the time to even seek out the specialty. But in time now, family medicine's very important everywhere, including in the city, including at the academic centers. And with my family medicine background, working in the ER, I do work with the pediatric group in Boston. I do family medicine in the clinic. I've also done urgent care and I feel equally at home in all those settings. And that's really nice. And I think connecting with the patients, I do feel like they actually do need us to know about a lot of things there. There's so much more complexity to health, and it's good to be able to do that over a wide range of health. And the other thing I like too about family medicine is we don't always have to make health issues always necessarily bad. We can talk about them as things that are opportunities to improve and maybe even opportunities to work on holistic health maintenance. So yeah, I think there is a lot of positivity to the future. We're going through an electronic medical record transition to Epic, which was really challenging. But I've used Epic in other locations and I'm finding that it, to some level is restoring my joy of medicine because the system is very good and allows me to actually complete functions rather than having the functions kind of dictate my whole day. So I think that hopefully technology will also help, at least the technology part that should be in place to help us. So I'm optimistic hopefully. Ely: That's a wonderful place to be optimistic and also carries us into the future. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers.holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

On this episode of the In the Club Podcast by Club Colors, we feature Joseph "Joe" Johnston, the CEO of M.I.I. Professional Speaking. He takes a deep dive into his why and gives tips to aspiring speakers in jumpstarting their careers.It is not only about having a story but having the ability to convey it in an engaging and inspiring manner. Joe's goal is to provoke action in the audience in a creative way that is unique to them, ultimately helping create positive change in their lives.Joe teaches about third-party persuasion and how speakers must tailor their story and message to fit a brand's needs, and then communicate the brand's goals and objectives to their audience. He also shines a light on mental health and how important it is to talk about it through his platform.HIGHLIGHT QUOTESGet experience to become a successful professional speaker - Joe: "You want to be like, Hey, I got this down. I know how to do this. I am a professional. And so you're going to feel more comfortable the more reps you get, and you're going to be a more marketable asset. The more success you have, the better that you're on at your own craft, the better that your message is. It's going to be easier to sell yourself and to get yourself on stages as opposed to just kind of starting out from scratch and trying to start from there."Practice a speech the way you practice a comedy skit - Joe: "The art of speaking, it's very similar to comedy. It's like you got to be fresh, man. You got to be doing that material all the time. John, my best speeches are when I've gone on the road for 2, 3 weeks, I've done the speech 2, 3, 4 times. Dude, by that fourth speech, knock it out of the park." Connect with Joe for events and speaking opportunities: LinkedIn | Instagram | Website

The Agile Coach sits down with Joe Ziadeh, Chief Story Teller and Innovation Artist at Balanced Agility, as he shares how to approach and engage teams as an agile coach. Joe breaks down his insights when working with new teams, from entering the team with mutual respect to the very mindset that makes an agile coach effective.Joe gives tips on how to create psychological safety to encourage transparent conversation and shares some activities he does with new teams. He also discusses how he aligns with stakeholders and leadership and how key metrics are based on goals that leaders must first define. Lastly, Joe provides expert tips on hiring agile facilitators and some qualities to look for in product owners. HIGHLIGHT QUOTESCreate psychological safety by bonding with the team - Joe: "The first thing that you need to do is, as a coach, you need to connect with every person on that team. And there are going to be people who don't necessarily want to connect with you. And you have to set up one-on-ones. You have to bond with these people. You have to connect with them as human beings."Deal with leadership through expectation management - Joe: "The higher up in the organization you get, it's a question of, hey stakeholder, what is it that you want to see from this? What does this team need to do to make you happy, to be successful? In your mind, what are the things that you can see that would keep them from being successful, and how can we prevent them? And then what can we do so that in the future when the team needs help, you are in a position to help them?"Providing air cover for supporting difficult decisions - Joe: "You'll run into situations, where as a leader, your job isn't to make sure that the organization runs clockwork the way it's supposed to. The vast majority of your time is spent on when stuff goes wrong, how do I pick up the pieces and get us back to what we should be doing?"Get to know Joe and what he's up to:About JoeAbout Balanced AgilityBalanced Agility WebsiteConnect with Vivek and find out more about what he's up to:About VivekAbout The Agile CoachAgile Coach WebsiteIf you enjoy The Agile Coach and are interested in learning more, you can check us out at the link below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-coach-llc

Joe Pici was the very first guest on The Clarity Advisors Show, and he returns for the first episode of 2023. Joe is a master sales trainer and coach who teaches his clients how to book more appointments and close more business. In this episode, Joe talks with host Ken Trupke about his “Strategic Momentum Intensive” coaching with its three-pronged approach to helping businesses and teams focus on what they need to do to succeed in the upcoming year. Episode HighlightsJoe's “Strategic Momentum Intensive” coaching sessions. The importance of a SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats) analysis. Setting SMART (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-Based) goals and establishing milestones on the road to success. Timestamps(01:11): What is “Strategic Momentum Intensive” coaching?(01:56): Start with a “reverse SWOT” analysis.(09:29): Establish SMART, quantifiable goals.(13:19): The importance of milestones.(15:00): Make sure everybody's goals are aligned.(20:40): Client success stories.(27:41): Get a complimentary cup of Joe. Episode Quotes“Good salespeople sell. Great salespeople sell profit margin.” (Joe)“You don't compromise goals. If you're going to compromise goals, don't set them.” (Joe)“The secret to 2023 is hidden in the areas you've got to get better at, and your opportunities.” (Joe)“When you up your game, you may work more.” (Joe)Recommended ListeningThe Sales Edge Podcast with Joe PiciThe Clarity Advisors Show – Episode 1 with guest Joe PiciFollow/Connect with Joe PiciPhone: 407-947-2950Text “Sales Edge” to 55678joe@piciandpici.comJoe Pici on LinkedInpiciandpici.comsellmorevirtually.com

When you're starting a business, one of the first challenges is finding buyers. Today's guest is Joe Ponds, president of Ponds Consulting and an expert in lead-generation. In this episode of The Clarity Advisors Show, Joe and host Ken Trupke talk about identifying and targeting high-quality leads for your business. Joe also shares some lessons he learned in law-enforcement and the military to help you communicate better in today's business world.Episode HighlightsHow to define your target market to get better-quality leads.The key to making a sale is being able to adapt to the customer and the situation.Rejection is not personal. Sometimes a customer just doesn't need what you're selling.Timestamps[3:34]  How “selling jail” as a law-enforcement officer applies to just about everything in life. [5:52]  Techniques learned in law-enforcement to help reduce conflict in the workplace. [8:29]  Using the DISC model to identify and understand potential clients. [13:22]  Lessons from the military that still apply today, and some that don't anymore. [19:55]  Fishing vs. hunting for leads. [23:17]  Identifying the type of customers you're looking for. [24:18]  The importance of being concise. [26:31]  Getting your salespeople over the hurdle and making phone calls. Episode Quotes“You need to know to whom you are selling.” (Joe)“Everybody likes to be spoken to in their own language.” (Joe)“Being direct and being very clear – but being polite – always works, regardless of where you come from.” (Joe)“A lot of times we keep our praise very, very quiet and our correction very, very loud. It should be the reverse.” (Joe)“Lead generation is…taking a suspect and making them into a prospect.” (Joe)“You need to have three things for a proper purchase. One, a need. Two, timing. And three, the money. If any one – or a combination of those – does not exist, it does not matter how good you are.” (Joe)Episode ResourcesThe Sales Edge with Joe Pici (podcast)“Traction” by Gino Wickman“The Power of Positive Thinking” by Dr. Norman Vincent Peale“Leadership and Self-Deception” by the Arbinger InstituteFollow/connect with Joe Ponds813-541-3994 call/textJoe Ponds on LinkedInFor a free e-book from Joe Ponds, text PONDS to 55678 

Liste des extraits utilisés : -You par Greg Berlanti et Sera Gamble (2018 / en cours) -Sex & The City par Darren Star (1998 / 2004) -FRIENDS par Martha Kauffman et David Crane (1994 / 2004) - Breaking Bad par Vince Gilligan (2008 / 2013) -Good Girls par Jenna Bans (2018 / 2021) _____________________________________________ Les mecs toxiques sont omniprésents dans la fiction. Rust Cohle (True Detective), Rio (Good Girls), Chuck Bass (Gossip Girl), Ezra (Pretty Little Liars), Joe (You), Edward Cullen (Twilight), Mister Big (Sex&TheCity), Walter White (Breaking Bad), Christian Grey (50 shades of grey)... difficile de nier qu'ils sont partout. Souvent considérés comme un personnage central des récits à destination des (jeunes) femmes, leur charisme a de quoi faire tourner les têtes. Pourtant, c'est oublié tout l'aspect nocif qu'ils représentent : manipulateur, menteur, possessif, violent... Ces hommes toxiques qui font souffrir les femmes sont souvent glamourisés ou romanticisés. Pire encore, les rapports femmes-hommes, les relations qu'ils entretiennent avec les femmes, sont idéalisées dans la majorité des fictions ! Alors, pourquoi cette complaisance ? Pourquoi cette fascination ? Que cherchent les femmes qui apprécient ces personnages ? Qu'en tirent-elles ? Et qu'est-ce que cela dit de notre société ? La réponse se trouve-t-elle dans la sociologie du genre ? Penchons-nous sur le travail autour des masculinités de la sociologue Connell, qui a notamment conceptualisé la masculinité hégémonique (dont découle la notion de masculinité toxique) ou encore sur le travail de Janice Radway autour de la romance à l'eau de rose comme genre littéraire prisé par les femmes, malgré les schémas de violences patriarcales qu'on y retrouve. Je suis Sophie Gliocas, autrice de young adult et bienvenue dans le premier épisode de "J'ai pas sommeil", le podcast pop-culture et féministe. Instagram : @gliocas_ Tiktok : @gliocas

Building Successful Sales TeamsHave you thought about building a sales team, but struggled to get the right people involved? Today's guest, Joe Pici, COO and Co-Founder of Pici & Pici Inc., is the sales training expert. On this episode of The Clarity Advisors Show, Joe talks about the importance of accountability, creating success on day three, and creating a value proposition.Sending emails may seem more convenient, but phone calls get better results. To that end, Joe talks about the importance of building relationships and closing sales in the most effective way possible.Episode Highlights:The importance of holding people accountable.How to create an abundant pipeline and successful sales career.Creating success on day three.The power of spoken voice versus email.Timestamps:[01:12] Pici & Pici, and Sell More Virtually. [02:40] What has stayed the same over time and what has changed?[04:25] Holding people accountable.[08:25] What is causing the increased reluctance in holding people accountable?[14:03] How many core stories does someone need to have in a month to hit their numbers?[17:06] The third day.[23:51] The volume of calls to get meetings.[25:01] Can't you just send emails?[29:04] Video conferencing versus phone calls.Episode Quotes:“The hardest thing in sales is to pick up the phone and get a qualified appointment that sticks.” (Joe)“Day two is the deciding factor for the success on day three.” (Joe)“You have a much higher performance with a phone than you ever will getting an email open.” (Joe)“The best time to make a phone call is now.” (Joe)“The number one reason why people don't pick up the phone is rejection.” (Joe)“A good no is better than a bad yes.” (Joe)Follow/Connect with Joe Pici:407-947-2950.Send “Sales Edge” to 55678.https://www.linkedin.com/in/joepicihttps://www.piciandpici.comhttps://www.sellmorevirtually.com

Over the years, we've seen technology grow and how companies use the power of data to drive decision-making. However, we may be gathering more data than we can handle. Some companies may observe inconsistencies among data reports, leading to arguments and a lot of time wasted. This is where data governance comes in.   In this episode, Joseph Wallace, Senior Manager of Data Governance at Adobe, joins us to talk about the importance of data governance, like how it can deter arguments around inconsistent data and improves business processes. He shares how data governance works, and how Adobe has a vision to make trusted data discoverable. He also shares what he believes is the future of data governance and how we must look at data like how we consume water.  Tune in to the episode to dive deeper into data governance.  Here are three reasons why you should listen to this episode:Understand how data governance is defined, and how it can be used to improve business processes.  Learn why Adobe's data governance is rooted in making trusted data discoverable, and how the company defines trust, data, and discoverable.  Discover the water analogy of data governance and how data governance will continue to grow.  Episode Highlights[00:57] How Data Governance Started at AdobeAdobe implemented data governance around five years ago. This program started because the company started noticing inconsistencies among data reports.  The data governance program began by defining how metrics were created and calculated, and what they mean.  The initial point of their data governance program was to avoid arguments over conflicting data by creating an official source of truth. The more the program has grown, it has decreased storage costs and computing costs. It can also drive new insights and new revenue opportunities.   Joe began looking at how many people are looking for data and how long they are looking.   Joe: We've spent 20, 25 years saying ‘data, data, data, gimme the data. I want to analyze the data. We're gonna drive with data. We're gonna do things with data.' And now we're here with mountains of data and we have no clue what to do with it. We have no real knowledge of where it is and how to use it. What's the most efficient and effective way of using it? That's the real value proposition of data governance. It's protecting it. It's making it searchable. It's helping people use it in the right ways at the right times for the right purpose.  [07:06] How To Define Data Governance For Joe, data governance is about making trusted data discoverable.  For Adobe, trust means customers are using their products securely and know that if there's an issue, it could be recovered.  Trust also involves operational data used for operational decisions that drive the company.  Joe explains that their data governance program is the hub of the wheel. Its spokes include privacy, corporate governance, and legal components. [10:35] How Adobe Defines Discoverable Data Data covers actual tables and columns, assets like IP, and both customer and Adobe content.   Joe prefers the term “digital asset governance,” since data can mean different things to different people.  In order to make data discoverable, Adobe uses a trust score and a prioritization model. The trust score looks at how people are using products, and how often.  Right now, the prioritization model is undergoing changes to prioritize customer data.  [14:30] How Adobe's Data Governance Team FunctionsInitially, Joe needed to convince people why data governance is important. Now, people are coming into the team on their own.  Over time, Joe has created different templates and playbooks built from previous cases.  He helps empower teams and people throughout the business to do their own data governance.  Joe: “You can't govern it if you...

Patrick responds to an email that disagrees with his taste in music  Dave – Celebrating Christ through music, whatever the genre, is fantastic  Sue - If Adam and Eve had not sinned and we had immortality how would the world be able to fit everyone?  Han - Can you offer multiple masses for one intention in one day? Do I need to attend the mass if I offer it for him?  Joe - You messed up your facts with the Civil War. We did not go to war to save the slaves.  Patrick - Do you know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden?  Vian - My friend is getting married but they aren't getting married in the church. What should I do?  Cindy - My sister is considering joining the church, but some people were not welcoming to her. How can I encourage her to keeping going to church?  Sylvia - My family member wants to get married outside of the Church. How can I gently tell her that it is wrong? 

Topics: 1) Biden changes course and agrees to send mid-range rocket systems to Ukraine after promise by Zelenskyy not to target Russian territory a. Ukraine has pleaded for these weapons - Every day of delay by Biden causes more territory and lives to be lost b. Germany finally relented and also agreed to send more sophisticated weapons c. Meanwhile Russia is leveling cities in Donbas region in a repeat of Mariupol d. Putin fires 5 Generals 2) In a meeting with Federal Reserve chairman Powell and Treasury Secretary Yellin, Biden blames Covid, Tax Cuts, Putin, Meat packers, the poultry industry, credit card companies along with oil and gas companies for Inflation *What about his disastrous policies and Federal reserve miscalculation? At lest Yellin admitted she was wrong - She also said "Inflation is way too high and is hurting Americans" **Gas prices hit $4.67 highest ever 3) Biden's plan is as follows: a. Cool the labor market - Unemployment is at 3.6% and wage inflation is running 6% b. Biden tries to take credit for deficit cuts because the U.S. did not spend another $1.9T in 2022 that was spent in 2021 c. Build Affordable housing - This will have no effect on inflation d. Russia and China problems related to war, oil and supply chain issues e. Recession Fears 4) OPEC+ considers suspending Russia *China suspends some Russian flights because they stole leased planes from European customers 5) Quantitative Tightening Begins $17B for next 3 months then $30B - The Fed balance sheet is at $9T *Jamie Dimon warns of Economic hurricane coming 6) Clinton lawyer Sussman acquitted on charge of lying to FBI 7) Biden administration asks Court to Reinstate Mask Mandates on planes - Don't do this Joe - You'll only make fliers mad 8) Illinois school district will abolish standards for people of color with no penalties for missing assignments and misbehavior - WHAT? 9) While the focus of the country was on the 21 killed in Texas, 50 people were shot in Chicago and 9 killed over the weekend while 250 fire arms were confiscated *In the same period last year, 34 were shot and 3 killed

After holding the first ever #VOBOSS Bilingual Audition Challenge, Anne & Pilar welcome the winners onto the show. Joe Lewis, Milena Benefiel, and Ramesh Mahtani share the process behind their winning entry, what stood out to Anne & Pilar when judging the contest as well as what it means to be a bilingual voice talent in today's industry. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey, hey. Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and today we have a very, very special episode planned for you. Not only am I here with my awesome special guest co-host Pilar Uribe -- woohoo Pilar! Pilar: Hi, Anne. Anne: Thanks for being here. We are so honored to be here with our VO BOSS bilingual audition challenge winners. So a huge welcome to our English audition winner, Joe Lewis. Yay! Joe: Hello. Ramesh: Hello, Joe. Anne: And our Spanish audition winner -- Pilar: Milena Benefiel. Anne: Yay! Hey Milena. Milena: Hi. Anne: And then our best English and Spanish audition, Ramesh Mahtani. Yay! So first of all, congratulations, everybody, on your wins. Joe: Thank you. Milena: Thank you, gracias. Ramesh: Gracias. Anne: It's very exciting. For those BOSSes that are just joining us and have not joined us before now, Pilar and I ran a bilingual audition challenge contest, which featured a Toyota commercial in both English and Spanish. And this was about, I'm gonna say, three to four weeks ago, and we had a number of submissions. I think it was over what, Pilar, like 130 or something like that? Pilar: Yeah. Anne: Or close to 130. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: And so first of all, everybody did a wonderful job, but we are so, so incredibly excited to have the winners with us today to talk about being bilingual in the industry today and what it takes. So let's start with our English winner, Mr. Joe Lewis. Yay, Joe. Joe, tell us a little bit about yourself and then I wanna play your winning audition. Joe: Okay. Well thank you for having me here. First of all, it's great to be with you all. I am a bilingual voiceover and voice actor, born in the US, Spanish father, American mother. And basically I've been back and forth in the States to Spain and from Spain to the States at different points of my life. And it's been a trip or several trips. You learn to adapt where you are and you do as the Romans do. And you learn a lot of stuff because you have to leverage two cultures, two languages. It's a thing. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, let's play your winning audition. And I wanna tell you a little bit about the specs. Our specs indicated that the voice should be confident, knowledgeable, optimistic, never take themselves too seriously, but at the same time, never come off as sarcastic either, warm human down to earth, playful spontaneous, conversational, relatable, and above all else, nothing that is typical commercial sounding, movie trailer, or announcery at all. So. Milena: All the things, all the things. Anne: All the things. Pilar: In other words, the kitchen sink. Anne: All the things. Totally. And I want to give a big shout out to the queen bee herself, Liz Atherton, and CastVoices for her sponsoring this contest and offering our winners a year pro membership to CastVoices. You guys, castvoices.com, go and get yourself an account. Liz is amazing and always has the voice talents' backs. I'll tell you what, she's amazing. So thank you Liz for that. So let's go ahead and play the warm, human, down to earth, playful, not typical commercial sounding, movie trailer or announcery English winning submission by Joe. Here we go. Joe: Beep. Beep. That is the sound of me signaling that this is a car commercial while being considerate of the fact that you may be on the road. It's exactly this kind of consideration that lets you know, you can trust Toyota and our all new 2022 Highlander SUV to get you where you need to be faster and more reliably. Beep beep beep beep beep. Oops. Sorry. I think my burrito's done. Anne: I love it. Joe: Thank you. Anne: I think that that really took every single spec into consideration. Joe, did you have any particular strategy when you were doing this audition or what is it that you do to prepare for an audition? Because we had so many submissions, but yours just kind of really stood out from the get-go. Joe: Well, thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it. As far as strategy, if it's automotive, I take it extra seriously because it's a big genre. So no matter what it is, even if it's a dealership, you know, it could turn into a long-term gig. So you take it seriously. It's always a challenge, uh, to see if it's a soft sell or if it's a harder sell, more promotional. At the same time, as you say, there's lot to consider in the styles or the trends that we work with today, uh, which are very different from 10, 15, 20 years ago. And that's as far as in general or as far as English. As far as Spanish, obviously my origin is of Castilian Spanish, uh, from Spain. So knowing that this would be for the American market, I tried to modulate that and go to a more neutral read and, and taking the specs into consideration as much as I could and have fun, have fun with it. Anne: Yeah. I think that's so important that you have fun with it. Pilar, comments about why we love Joe so much. Pilar: Listening to it again, I think what, what I really liked about it, this is probably not the right word. It wasn't folksy, but I really felt like I was listening to you, and I was listening to a real person rather than somebody reading it. Anne: Yeah, I agree. Pilar: Like, and just the small pauses, the little giggle -- there were some amazing entries, but what I found so interesting about yours was that you had this attitude from the beginning. You weren't serious, and then you went to the punchline. You had this sort of upbeat throughout the entire read. That's what really stood out for me. Anne: Yeah. Really, really warm smile, I think overall. Joe: Thank you so much. Anne: I just felt like. Pilar: Yeah, yeah. Anne: I felt like we were just longtime friends, which we are, but listening to, I felt like we were, and it really, really stood out from the beginning. So congratulations, Joe, again -- Joe: Thank you so much. Anne: -- on that. Joe: I appreciate it. Anne: So onto our winner in the Spanish division, Milena. Milena: Hi. Anne: Tell us a little bit about yourself and where you're located and your VO journey so far. Milena: All right. Well Saludos, hola, hi. Milena Benefiel. I am currently located in Orlando, well, near Orlando, Florida. I am the first generation born here in the US. Both of my parents came over from Cartagena, Colombia, woohoo and they insisted that I learned Spanish as a child, and I never understood why. Why would I ever need this other language? And look at me now, right? My background was actually in television. I worked part-time as a TV host for a Telemundo affiliate in Spanish and did a lot of commercial acting while also being an ER nurse and ICU nurse. I came from entrepreneurial parents who had multiple careers, multiple jobs, 'cause they had to, right, coming from another country. So I don't know how to not have too much on my plate. So this was kind of my side hustle. And after COVID I, I took it from part-time to full-time. I, I was kind of burnt out in the hospital, and yeah, I had the ability to go from sounding very middle America English, as you can hear in my, in my accent to speaking [Spanish] speaking in Spanish that's very neutral. It kind of like people are like, are you Colombian or Cuban or from where? So I've been very fortunate in that that I've been able to provide both sides for my clients. So it's been a really fun journey. Ramesh: Super. Anne: Yeah. Let's have a listen to the winning entry. Here we go. Milena: Bip bip. Ese es el sonido que uso para señalar que este es un comercial de autos mientras que usted podría estar conduciendo en la carretera. Este tipo de servicio es lo que le permite saber que puede confiar en Toyota y en nuestra nueva SUV Highlander 2022 para que se transporte de un lugar a otro de la manera más rápida y confiable. Bip bip bip bip bip. Vaya, lo siento, creo que mi burrito está listo. Yay! Ramesh: Super. Anne: Congratulations again, such a wonderful, warm sound. That's what I really got. And I love how, when we said have fun with this or somebody that doesn't take themselves too seriously, I really felt that in the places where you could -- it opened up to have fun, the more conversational like, "oops, I think my burrito's done." I love the way that you guys brought life to that and brought fun to that that wasn't even as expected. Pilar, your thoughts, Pilar: You had me from the beginning Milena. This was to me displayed so much warmth and reassurance. I felt like when I listen to it, you're taking me by the hand, and you're reassuring me as a consumer that it's gonna be okay. And it's like, oh yeah, I'll do whatever she says. Milena: Wow. PIlar: So that's what I got from this read. It was really, yeah, it was, it was really good read. You just, you got me. Milena: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. I am so grateful for that feedback. That's kind of my MO when it comes to anything that I do in VO. I just, I, I wanna be warm and caring and reassuring. That's kind of my, my thing. So that you heard that feels so good because it makes me feel like, wow, okay. I'm, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. So thank you so much. Anne: I wanna kind of tag on to what Pilar said. Like for me, I do not speak Spanish, but I could hear the story. If I listen, I could hear your story in there. And when we talk about trusting Toyota, I felt that, and I really felt that you took the words beyond just what was on the page, and really you were in the scene. And like I said, for me to not even speak Spanish but to listen and to be able to hear your storytelling, I thought that that was, that was just really wonderful. So yeah. Milena: Wow. Thank you so much. Such a huge compliment from two women that I admire very much. So this is a very surreal moment for me. So thank you so much. Anne: well deserved. Well deserved. Milena: Thank you. Anne: Okay. So onto our English Spanish combination winner. Ramesh Mahtani yay. Congratulations. Ramesh, tell us a little bit -- Ramesh: Well, thank you very much. Anne: Yeah. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey. Ramesh: Yeah, well, I suppose like most of us over here, very, very varied background. I mean, I was born in Karachi, Pakistan to Indian parents who perhaps were a bit disgruntled with the way things were going out over there, and they decided to move to the Canary Islands. Why, I have no idea, but that takes me back to when I was about four. So I came over here to the islands, speaking a combination of Sindi, of Hindi, of Urdu. Of course I had to learn Spanish rather quickly. And my parents always wanted me to speak English because they knew that English is the lingua franca, and you wouldn't get anywhere in the world without it. So I grew up in an American school over here in the canaries, and I was shipped off to a horrible concentration camp sort of boarding school in England, which was a nightmare. Um, I would spend four long miserable years there, which is I suppose, where I picked up the sort of vestige of an English accent. And then I went to America to do my university degree, which was a lot of fun. And I saw what the real world was like. And I didn't, I suppose, switch on to the American accent because wherever I spoke to were like, oh my God, your accent's so cool. Where are you from? Well, I'm originally from -- Oh my God. Keep on speaking. We just love your accent. So, um, no, I didn't pick up an American accent, I suppose. I just veered towards what, what I call international or neutral. So that's my story. And in voice, I I've always played around with my voice. I love switching accents between -- I speak to my parents with a bit of an -- well, my mom. My father passed away -- with an Indian accent. So it changes depending who I talk to, if it is very strong Indian community, well, it becomes Indian, otherwise it's what I speak now. And then of course, in Spanish and English and French and all these sort of, you know, weird voices going on in my head, it was but natural that I followed a voice over career. So that's what brings me here today, basically. Anne: Wow. Well now you did something interesting with your auditions. You did two takes for both English and Spanish. And so one of the things that stood out to Pilar and I were the fact that you did two different takes for each. And so let's go ahead and play now. Um, I'm gonna click on this one. I'm not sure if this is the English or the Spanish. So hang on one second because the name is, is long. So it's kind of running off my little table here. Ramesh: Sure. Anne: It could be either one. Let's put it that way. There we go. Ramesh: Beep. Beep. That is the sound of me signaling that this is a car commercial while being considerate of the fact that you may be on the road. It's exactly this kind of consideration that lets you know, you can trust Toyota and our all new 2022 Highlander SUV to get you where you need to be faster and more reliably. Beep beep beep beep beep. Oops. Sorry. I think my burrito's done. Beep. Beep. That is the sound of me signaling that this is a car commercial while being considerate of the fact that you may be on the road. It's exactly this kind of consideration that lets you know, you can trust Toyota and our all new 2022 Highlander SUV to get you where you need to be faster and more reliably. Beep beep beep beep beep. Oops. Sorry. I think my burrito's done. Anne: I love it. I wanna just make some comments before we played your Spanish entry. I thought, first of all, you had two completely different takes, and now I understand where the accent came from because you were living in the UK. So I get that now. I was not aware of that, but I really loved it because it really wasn't something that felt to me like it was obviously forced or something that wasn't natural to you. And the fact that you did completely different reads shows just some tremendous acting ability, which I think is any good casting director that can hear that knows immediately that they would be able to direct you to do anything really. And so that was, I thought was really strong about your English entry. And I also liked you had a different reaction and a different emotion about the burrito, which stood out to me, even though it was like a nuanced change. You're like, oh I think my burrito's done. Or Ooh, I think my burrito's done. It really lent a lot to the different reads and the different aspects and the showcasing of your acting abilities. Pilar. Pilar: Yeah. I felt like you were talking to two different people in the two different reads and that was really significant. And it's funny because I didn't realize it, but they were two different accents, and I was like, they sounds so different, and it's, it's like, oh yeah, duh, because he's so versatile. But that also colored the read because one was a little bit more business-like. The other one was a little bit sort of more off the cuff, more warm. And so it was really interesting to see them together, but they are very different reads, so yeah, that's great. Ramesh: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I suppose one of the underlying elements is that I try and make sure that I'm not trying to sell in this case, sell the car, but just say, tell the story, uh, as something that we will often talk about in voiceover direction. As soon as it sounds sort of salesy, you know, you're going the wrong direction. So spice it up, you know, conjure up some magic, just make it sound as if as Pilar said, you know, you're just basically off the cuff having a conversation with someone, without sell, buy this car sort of thing, you know, which we definitely do not want to go there. Anne: And you know, I don't know if you guys noticed, but in the middle of that script, the sentences were a little bit long. You know how we always get a script and if it's a really lovely, wonderfully written script, we're like, oh yes, it's so easy to voice. We gave you something specifically that may not have been so easy to voice in navigating a long sentence. So. Ramesh: Ah, you did it purposely. Anne: Yeah. All of you handled that so well, so kudos on that. I mean, I'm used to doing that because you do a lot of long format narration and coaching my students, there's always unwieldy sentences. And to make it sound truly conversational and you know, as if you're talking to one person or talking to us, you gotta know your rhythm, you gotta kind of know, you gotta put yourself in the scene and understand where those pauses, where the commas are, even if they don't exist. Ramesh: Yeah. I realize, I thought, my gosh, who's written this, because it is, there was a part where it got really wordy and thought, you know, you have to navigate that. Pilar: Those were the traps and none of you fell into it. Anne: Yes. You know, we are teachers . Exactly. Yes. Always a teacher, just saying so, so congratulations. All right. So let's play, uh, the Spanish entry, which again, you did two reads, which were different. So here we go. Ramesh: Soy Ramesh Mahtani. Bip bip. Ese es el sonido que uso para señalar que este es un comercial de autos mientras que usted podría estar conduciendo en la carretera. Este tipo de servicio es lo que le permite saber que puede confiar en Toyota y en nuestra nueva SUV Highlander 2022 para que se transporte de un lugar a otro de la manera más rápida y confiable. Bip bip bip bip bip. Vaya, lo siento, creo que mi burrito está listo. Bip bip. Ese es el sonido que uso para señalar que este es un comercial de autos mientras que usted podría estar conduciendo en la carretera. Este tipo de servicio es lo que le permite saber que puede confiar en Toyota y en nuestra nueva SUV Highlander 2022 para que se transporte de un lugar a otro de la manera más rápida y confiable. Bip bip bip bip bip. Vaya, lo siento, creo que mi burrito está listo. Anne: Yay. Ramesh: I suppose I'll just caveat, uh, the accent there. I mean like Joe, I live in Spain and sometimes if my client's in mainland Spain, I would do a Castilian accent, but I put on a sort of neutral and general Latin American accent for those, which is similar to the Canarian accent. Anne: Yeah. I was gonna just ask you about that. And one thing that I wanted to point out, which I thought was super strategic, because you did the two takes, you immediately went into your second take to call the attention of like -- Pilar and I listened like, oh my gosh, I think it took us a weekend, right, at least, uh, one after the other one after the other. Pilar: Several times too. Anne: Exactly. And the fact that even though, I didn't know, you were having two takes immediately going into that second take was like brilliant because I didn't stop listening. You know, I was just getting ready. Okay. He's finished -- oh no, here he comes with the next one, which I thought was really strategic. And I think if I know you, Ramesh, that was on purpose Ramesh: Would it have been the alternative to have said, take one? Pilar: No. Most people leave a space. Anne: A lot of space. Yeah. Pilar: You don't let the listener down for a second. There's no lag time. Ramesh: Right. Pilar: And that is brilliant. I mean, I'm using that in my auditions now as well. Ramesh: Okay. I've I've always done it that way. Anne: That's smart. Ramesh: I, I seldom send off an audition unless I do two. Pilar: It's wonderful. Ramesh: I usually always do two takes. Anne: Yeah. Ramesh: And I just do them back to back. So as you said, so they don't have a chance to hit the next button. Yeah. Milena: I typically call it out in my slate if I'm going, do two takes, which -- Anne: And that's good too. Milena: -- for most auditions I would do two. Yeah. But I like this. You give them no choice. Give 'em no choice. Anne: Right, right. Just go right into it. I love it. And you went right into that second character too, which I thought was great for that. Now did you have a strategy English versus Spanish? I know you just mentioned that you did more of a neutral Spanish. What was your strategy for those two different reads? Ramesh: For the two Spanish reads? Anne: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Ramesh: Um, just, just variation really. Anne: Yeah. Ramesh: I mean, I just, I would loathe for them to sound similar so the director would've said, ah, you know, this guy's obviously reading the same thing twice in the same way. I, I just do not wanna fall in that trap. So whatever I could do to spice it up or color it to just make them sound different and believable, relatable and conversational, keeping away from the salesy. Anne: Sure. So then let me ask you what's happening in your brain? What's happening? What's the process? Are you putting yourself in a different scene maybe? Ramesh: I've got a different audience and I'm somebody else. Anne: Okay. Ramesh: So either I'm a young sort of rich, youthful sort of business dude, or I'm an older person just wanting to sort of have a nice car. So I, my whole persona changes, maybe it helps being a Gemini. I could switch from one, from one personality to the other, but yeah, definitely. I've gotta change the audience and change the speaker. Both of them. Anne: Oh good. That's a really good tip. I like that. I've always changed the scene, but not necessarily who I was, because I always wanna be conversational and, and tell this story and, and not be salesy as well, but I never thought about changing, let's say I'm a younger Anne, which that would be nice. I like that. Milena: Your voice can be as young as you wanna be. Anne: That's it. There you go. Yeah. I like that. Ramesh: I guess ever since I was a young kid and, and having been moved around so many different places, I perhaps, and this is for something very personal and intimate, and I, and now that it comes up in context, I don't mind sharing it, but I've, I've often struggled to have a proper identity as an -- sometimes I don't even know who I am because I've had to switch and I do often switch, you know, when I speak, as I said, I speak to my mom, I speak to in an Indian sort of way. I speak to the local Canarian dudes out in the street and become totalmente canario; it's a totally different accent. So I'm always switching, switching, switching, switching in the end, to think, you know, oh my gosh, existential crisis, you know, who am I? Anne: That's a, that's really an interesting point. Yeah. Joe: You're a chameleon, Ramesh. Ramesh: I'm a bit of a chameleon. Anne: Absolutely. Ramesh: I'm not Spanish and I'm not English, you know? So it's really weird. Anne: That's very interesting. I always equate that, and again, I'll get maybe a little into it, but I grew up with three brothers. And so being the only girl in the family, I didn't have to share necessarily, but I also didn't have like a sister to kind of like play dolls with or whatever I was gonna be doing. Milena: Same. Anne: So I got really good at my imagination. Ramesh: Yeah. Anne: And playing with my dolls and teaching and talking to them and really putting myself in different scenes with them. And I think that carries through the adulthood. Right, Milena, you mentioned the same thing? Milena: Oh yeah, absolutely. I didn't have a sister growing up. And I also just think like with my parents having the multiple jobs, they were both performers. My whole life has been a performance, and I kind of do the same in my two takes. I go into my lower register in that warm, buttery, soft, like my first take will be -- or exactly what the specs ask for, I'll give you in the first take, and then the next one, I'll kick it up to a little bit of a higher pitch, make myself a little bit younger and I'll be a little wackier, like a little more fun, a little more conversational, and just get a little more crazy with it. Just to add some adlibs and some different things too, just for range. Anne: I think that's great. Do you have more than two personas? I always have two in my pocket, but do you spend time developing, let's say, a third read or a third persona that can give you a different read? I think that's good for the artist in us. Joe: I mean, I, what captivated me about this piece was the invitation to do effects. You don't usually see that in copy, so I thought that was like, ooh, this is gonna be fun. Anne: Yeah. Joe: And then I tried to add layers, do several takes and sort of warm up and then listen to them and see if I can be sprinkling, uh, or adding something. But I do agree that when you kick into another language, it's another dimension of tools and, and tricks that you have. I wasn't privileged to have brothers or sisters. So being lucky enough to grow up with a, a parent of either side, you know, you, you kind of take it for granted when you're a kid, and then you, you grow up and you're like, wow, this is pretty powerful to switch on and off, switch the languages, you know, with all the cultural and the contextual things that come along with each particular one. Totally there with Ramesh on the strange dichotomy that happens and not really knowing who you are or when it's the, uh, what secret service did you say you worked for again? Pilar: No, comment. Milena: I love how he's silent. He's like -- Joe: He's a pro. Milena: If I tell you I'll have to kill you. Ramesh: Well, sorry. Did I, did I talk about a secret service? Joe: I was asking you what secret service you work for, my friend. Anne: I love it. Milena: Crickets, crickets. Anne: Crickets. Secret service. Pilar: Speaking of which, that was one of the things that really struck me about Ramesh's Spanish read is that I heard someone speaking in Spanish with the Spanish language rhythms rather than a translation. And that to me was so important because that not being your first language, and I think that that's really important because like Milena, I mean, I was born in this country, but my parents spoke to me for the first five years of my life in Spanish, but it's technically not the language that, you know, I speak English all the time. So there's something, there's always that strange sort of divide. Like who are you? Are you this? Are you that? And what I really liked about your read was that it was like, I was listening to a Spanish person speaking, not a translation. And that's so important. Everyone is always so concerned with the accent. That really kind of falls by the wayside. Because if you believe in what you're saying, and it has to do with acting, if you're really acting it, how well you speak or how much of an accent you have doesn't really matter. It all falls by the wayside. So that's what to me, what made a very successful bilingual audition. And that's why we picked you, one of the reasons why we picked you as the bilingual audition winner. Ramesh: Oh, thank you. I'm privileged. Thank you very much. Anne: And again, I'll just kind of tack onto what Pilar was saying is both of the Spanish versions of your audition, I could hear the story that you were telling. And again, I listened very carefully, especially in the unwieldy sentences, because that's what I do every day with my students. I'm working on these crazy, long format narration scripts that aren't always written well. And so I would really be listening carefully throughout all the entries for that navigation. And I still felt the story. I felt the rhythm, and I felt the words that needed to come be a little more present in my ear that were important, like the brand name, the fact that you trust Toyota on all of your reads. Believe it or not, listening to all of the entries, that was kind of a key I was listening for, to trust Toyota. And I wanna feel that trust as opposed to trust Toyota. And I really wanted to feel that little nuance of emotion or trust. And I think every single one of you in every one of your English and Spanish gave me that trust feeling and that warm feeling and that kind of having fun with it, especially at the end, and the beeps too. I mean, I like the fact that we gave this script out because of the beep beep and what people did with the beep beep was really telltale, especially in the beginning, if you did something that maybe wasn't a traditional beep beep or you had fun with it, or you just kind of smiled at yourself. I think Joe, you're, right off the bat, you're kind of chuckling a little bit and it just was so warm and I fell in love with that from the beginning and all of your interpretations of the beeping at the front end of that and the back end of that, I loved it. You know, you had fun with it like we asked in the specs. Joe: Well, I was just gonna say Road Runner, you know, I mean, it was irresistible to me. It was irresistible. Ramesh: Absolutely, absolutely. Milena: Yes, that's exactly what I pictured in my head too. Ramesh: Yeah. Milena: That's funny. Ramesh: I think after doing this for, I mean, you know, you're speaking to people who are super professionals. I have great respect for Joe and Milena and Pilar and yourself, Anne, of course. I mean, when you listen to somebody who's just started off and doesn't have much training, that's when you realize, oh my gosh, this is a poorly done audition. But after a while it just becomes intuitive, I think, plus the script lend itself, the beeps, the mic proximity that you can, the burrito whole thing. I mean, what does the burrito have to do with the car sale, for God's sake? So you can do so much with that. You know, you can just, as you said, have fun and the more imagination you have, and the more years of experience you have tucked under your belt, you can do crazy things within parameters, of course. I often don't overthink it because that's usually when it doesn't usually work. It's usually my first and my third take, which are good. Uh, the first one, because I'm just off the bat, I'm fresh and I'm just being really spontaneous. The second seems to be similar to the first ,and the third, usually I've had a bit more time to imagine nuances, and those come out quite magically. So, but yeah, the script was nice. It lent itself to, to having fun and being creative. Milena: I completely agree with that, the instincts, I know Anne, you had asked earlier, you know, what was your method? How did you attack this script? How did we look at the script? And I actually will do a read prior to even reading the specs, just to get my natural inclination of like, okay, I'm looking at the script without overthinking it. Let me just do a read. And then of course looking at the specs, and then kind of picking apart, you know, I listened back to my read and picking apart, what words do we wanna highlight? Like you said, trust, right? The brand, faster and safely, getting there fast and safely. Those are important things, right? Joe: Exactly. Milena: So then I go through with it, but I completely agree with Ramesh, it typically is my first read. And then maybe my third or my fourth. The second one always sounds like the first one, or it's like, so off the wall that it's like, why did I go totally left field on that one? But yeah. I completely agree with you, when you just go with those once you've been doing it for a while, when you try to be someone you're not, it's not authentic. Ramesh: Exactly. Milena: And you can hear it in your read. Joe: Yeah. By family tradition, my parents came from the academic and the publishing world. So script analysis, I put at the top of the list, you know, the top three, because the burrito for example was what invited me not to do it in Castilian. And that was my choice. I thought it was great that you did two takes of each, Ramesh. I, I shied away from the Castilian because I just wanted to have a burrito and, and that's Mexican, and I just -- and it's international by now., yes, but it's traditionally and originally Mexican. And I wanted, I wanted to go there. If you told any person in Spain, you know, burrito just stand alone, they might not get it. If it's contextual, they'll be, oh yeah, yeah, Taco Bell, you know, whatever, but, or Mexican restaurant, but that's, that's the reason I, I shied away from Castilian and I, I made an attempt at my best neutral Spanish. Milena: I had no choice. I don't do Castilian You don't wanna hear me trying to do Castilian accent. Anne: So that brings an interesting question, which I had asked of Pilar early on in our series, about when specs come in for Spanish, is there a strategy? Are specs clear? Do you sometimes have to say, well, is there a particular dialect that you're looking for? What do you guys do? Joe: First and foremost is the market. What market is it hitting? Because if it's a state, it's gonna be 99.9% neutral Spanish. It's very exceptional to do Castilian. I've spent many years living in Spain, and sometimes they call me to do Spanish and Catalan. And for many years they wanted an American accent, even though I don't really have one when I speak normally. So I, I had to kind of impose, impose an accent like this or something like that. You know, you know what I'm saying? Milena: I love it. Being in the US, I think it's kind of less of a question for me. I know Ramesh and Joe are overseas. For me here in the US, typically my specs are always gonna say either neutral Spanish or Latam Spanish, Latin American Spanish. That's 99%. I think I have gotten a couple auditions that have asked for Catalan or Castilian Spanish. And it's very rare, but I am pretty upfront with them that I'm like, you're not gonna be happy with my read, if you want me to try to pull one of those off. But yeah, I think for me over here in the States, it's almost always, it's gonna be neutral or, or Latin American Spanish, which is what I do. And I can put a little bit more of that Paisa, you know, Colombian accent on it, if they're asking specifically for Latin American, but yeah. Ramesh: I've had a very strange situation with many of my castings in Spanish. I've booked jobs. And then they come to me and say, you're not Spanish, are you? I said, they say, you sound very Spanish, but by your name, we had doubts. And a few times they're, they're brave enough to say that. Anne: Yeah. Ramesh: They're like, your name sounds Indian or Pakistani. I'm like, well, it is. What you want do about it? Milena: What you want? Ramesh: You bookedme. You, you booked me, you liked my audition, but are you just curious? You just wanna start a conversation over here? And, and I struggle with that. And the same thing with my English, like, oh, this guy's Indian. He probably, he doesn't have a proper English accent. I'm like, well, so I stopped trying to be very British at one point, and I said, well, I'm international English. I mean, what can I say? Yes, I'm Indian. I can't, I could change my name. And at one point I tried to go as Robert Martin, but I thought it just sucks. Joe: No, you should be Pepe Mahtani. Ramesh: Pepe Mahtani de las islas canarias... so, yeah. So that's another sort of strange one, but like Joe's, But I mean, I also do a lot of times they, they ask you to do a span with the English accent. So you have to do what they, what the client wants and you hope they're happy. Joe: You have to. You have to. Ramesh: You have to. Pilar: You have to. Ramesh: Yes. Milena: Oh my goodness. Ramesh: Without a doubt. Milena: Ramesh, that did strike me. Remember, our first conversation. That's what I said. I said, I'm completely blown away. As soon as I saw your name, I was like, well, he's not Spanish or American. [indistinct] Ramesh: No, I totally understandable, yeah. It's like, where are you from? [speaking Spanish] Milena: Cómo puede ser, pero no entiendo. [banter in Spanish] Joe: For me, it's the same, Joe Lewis. Right? You know, talking in Spanish, like, come on. This is -- Pilar: You could be José Luís. Joe: Ridiculous, ain't it? Milena: José Luís. Joe: José Luís, exacto. Ramesh: Whenever I speak to Joe, whenever I, the first thing I tell him, when we get on the phone is like, hello, Mr. Joe Lew-is. . Joe: I try to do my best Southeast Asian for Ramesh because I love him so much. Ramesh: Listen, all my white friends who try and do an Indian accent are just terrible at it. You guys suck big eggs because you cannot do an Indian accent. Even Mr. Peter Sellers, who I have great respect for in the movie "The Party," he also did not pull out a decent Indian accent. I'm sorry. It's crap. Joe: A thousand apologies. But I do -- I do this with, with love. I do this with love. I promise you. Ramesh: Joke around. Anne: Oh my goodness. Ramesh: You can joke around because we are good friends, but your Indian accent, I'm sorry, is not very convincing. Joe: Totally. Totally agreed. Anne: Oh my goodness. Well, you guys -- Milena: Friends don't let friends go around with terrible accents. Anne: There you go. There you go. Joe: Precisely. Anne: So I wanna ask each of you, what would be your best tip? Like how do you market yourself as -- like people that are coming in to the industry now, if they're bilingual, what best tips can you give us to market yourself as a bilingual voice talent? Joe: I've spent many years trying to equate both. I have them at the same level, both languages. It was a thing of responsibility. That's a big R word, responsibility. And this was instilled through my parents directly and indirectly. So I was very lucky with that. It all went astray when, uh, a number of years ago, I started to get requests from clients to do accents that are not my natural accents. Oh, I wait, are you sure? I'm like, yes, no, please. And then you do it and they love it. And like, Hmm, well, maybe there's something here. Maybe, maybe it's a thing. So you can never sleep in your laurels. You can never get too comfortable. You can never get too overconfident because it's like music. I come from music. It's ultimately unattainable. You're not gonna finish it. Just keep on pumping. That's what you can do. That's my best advice. Keep on pumping. Ramesh: 100%. Milena: I guess before this interview, we talked about this a little bit. I actually shied away from doing Spanish when I first started, despite me literally being on Telemundo, right? like having my own segment in Spanish. I always was a little bit insecure about my Spanish, and I would get requests to do things both English and Spanish, and producers kept telling me like, you've got something here. You've gotta do -- when you can offer both sides, it's more efficient. It's mutually beneficial for you and the client. You've really gotta push this. And I did. So I try to -- and I'm trying to get better at it -- I try to, when I'm posting things, say to social media, or, you know, whenever I'm doing things, I'm trying to do more showing the spots that I do in English and in Spanish so that people can see both sides, especially right now. There's this huge shift in the last few years here, that is this huge push for diversity, huge push for bilingualism, especially with Spanish in the US. And I don't know if you guys are seeing things over there too, or internationally, 'cause of course I just know here in the US, but there's this really big push. So I've been very, very fortunate in that everyone that I connect with, as soon as I mention that I'm bilingual, they then mention that to somebody else. So my biggest tip would be let people know. Don't do what I did for the first, you know, five years and shy away from that. Practice it. And if you don't feel as confident in that second language, which I didn't, start reading books out loud, watching movies, speaking -- I told my parents do not speak to me in English. We're speaking in Spanish, and I would read technical things so that it would be more difficult, you know, words that I didn't use in conversation, and just let people know, but plaster it everywhere and make sure everyone knows. Anytime I send an audition on say Voice 123, 'cause I do use that as a pay to play in addition to my agents and other things, anytime, even if it's an English audition only, I always, always, always write, hey, and if you ever think about hitting the Hispanic market, I also speak neutral Spanish. Please go to my website and here's my stuff. Even if it's only an English spot, I always let people know. And you know what? 50% of the time, they come back to me and say, you know what? We posted a separate for the Spanish. We'll just go with you for both of them. So whatever language that is that you're in, use it. And even if you don't think they'll ever use you in -- let people know, 'cause they're not gonna know unless you tell them, right? So that is my biggest piece of advice is just brag on yourself, man. Let 'em know. Joe: And if I may quote Jaco Pastorias, the great late bass player, it ain't bragging if you can back it up. Milena: Heyo. Ramesh: Absolutely. Anne: Ramesh, your thoughts? Ramesh: Yeah. Well, I think in my case, I was speaking to Joe about this actually a few, a few days back, it, it's very market specific. I mean I live in Spain and I don't really market myself to Spanish clients in Spanish, I suppose because I know there's, there's a whole plethora of Spanish voice artists here. Why would they necessarily go to me? So they come to me for English and as Milena said, once they come to me for English, then I'd bring out the Spanish. I'm like, here you go. I can do it in Spanish for you. Oh great. That saves us so much trouble and hassle finding somebody who can do it in Spanish. And likewise with international clients that I book in English, you know, I tell them I, I can do the Spanish, but I think you, as Milena said, you have to let it be known that you can do both and do whatever you're good at. If you're good at corporate, well, sell yourself at corporate and be even better at corporate, and then perhaps branch out to something that you may want to aspire to. If you wanted to do some animation in Spanish, you've never done that before, get coaching, but focus on your strengths and build your strengths and be really confident that my strong piece is this. And I can promote that openly and confidently, because confidence is, is 90% of the game. If they see that you say I can do Spanish for you as well. And you know, you don't have a belief in yourself, it's gonna seep through. I mean, I do French voicing, but I tell the clients, I'm not a native French speaker. I've got a very good accent, but it's not native. And I try and pull it off because I have confidence that I can do it. Joe: I totally agree. We don't read minds. And I, I was in a corporate multinational advertising agency for a while, and bilingualism in the States is a really important thing. I mean, I don't know what you think, Ramesh, if you agree with me, but for certain reasons, I think there's more of a bilingual ambient in the States than there is in Spain. 'Cause Spain is too busy with politics and they're busy with co-official languages. They're not dialects, they're official languages like Catalan, Gallego, or Galician and, and Basque. And the, the thing is that, uh, because of the way English is taught in Spain and, and because of dubbing, this is the reason why English is not a second nature, uh, language in Spain. So you always have to have client education in mind in the good sense to try to explain to them because they may not read your mind. They may not understand to what level you are in the other language. It's not easy. I mean, it's, we live in a world that is very multiplied because of social media. And you know, I see this from the musician standpoint, again, you know, the advent of pop star. You do a 3000 line casting. You, you get in, you're on TV, it's instant stardom. I mean, there's a lot of ways to get known really quickly and dramatically in this world. And a lot of people are strutting their stuff. So it's a complicated thing to market yourself effectively. It's not just marketing, and here I would like Anne to take over on the marketing thing because you're a master at this, but it's a really important question, what you ask. How do you market yourself in English and Spanish effectively and be taken seriously? You know? Anne: Well, I mean spoken by the guy who has the bilingualvoiceover guy.com, right? I mean me@thebilingualvoice -- so that I'll tell you, right in your URL, you're advertising, and you've got multiple URLs. And I know that, you know, all of you on your websites are focusing or you have the fact that you are bilingual. And I think that's number one, I mean, in this online world and Pilar, I know does an exorbitant amount of not just bilingual voiceover, but also dubbing. So Pilar, any specific, additional tips that we haven't talked about that maybe you could offer as advice to, let's say, bilingual voiceover talent that are coming into the industry now? Pilar: Um, well a lot has been said about it. When I first started in the industry, in voiceover, I was encouraged not to do a bilingual voiceover demo for example by a very, very well known coach here that Anne and I both know who shall remain nameless who said, absolutely. You never mesh the two together. Milena: I've been told that too. Pilar: You have Spanish on one side and English on the other. So I did, not with them. And so then I, I was like, okay. So I went with somebody else. I did it, Spanish, English, fine. And then I thought, no, I'm gonna go ahead and do a bilingual voiceover demo. And I did, and that is one that's booked me so many jobs. The other one is really good. The other two that I did, the Spanish and English and it, my agents prefer me separating them. So that's fine. But the Spanglish one is what has booked me so many jobs. And so for somebody starting out, I think it's just important to keep at it, just to keep putting yourself out there. And also you never know what the client's gonna ask. I just, I find it so hysterical that I get booked for something. We'll do it in English. We'll do it in Spanish. And then they'll say, well, can you just give us a little accent? I'm like, you're kidding, right? And I don't have an accent in either. I mean, in Spanish, I always think I do, but I don't. I know I don't, it's just, it's so minuscule, but they're like, can you just make it a little bit more for us? And then in English, can you just give us a little bit more, a little thicker? I'm like, okay, fine. If that's what the client wants, that's what the client gets. So I think that the key is to be elastic and to say, yes, I can do this. I can do this. Never say no. A lot of times I've come up against artists who sit there, and they say, oh, well, I passed on that because I can't do it. And I was like, well, why can't you do it? Well, I didn't, I didn't think I could. Well, if you don't think you can, then you're not gonna be able to. Right. Exactly. So always be available and let the person who is casting see if you're right for it or not. And you know, keep putting yourself out there, no matter what. Milena: I wanted to ask, 'cause this is the question that I have and I think maybe some that are coming in would appreciate an answer to this -- in the US, the majority of my buyers are speaking English, right, whether they want Spanish or not. Now I do work with buyers that speak Spanish, but the majority of them are in English. So I've struggled with the decision to make my website, do a Spanish website, all Spanish website, or just an all English website. So I've chosen to do an all English website that says I'm bilingual and I'm gonna have an about me page that's just in Spanish, just my about me page. And I just wanted to get your feedback on that, 'cause I think that's a question that a lot of people have coming in as well. Like do I need to have these two separate entities like I have for my demos? Or like I said, for me, the majority of my buyers speak English regardless whether their client is or they -- their primary language may be Spanish, but my buyers are usually in English. Pilar: So this might sound a little radical. Milena: I like it. Anne: Already. Pilar: I'm not thinking about who my buyers are. I'm thinking about me. And if I go, and I did this, 'cause I had two separate websites 'cause I actually followed what this person said to me at first, and I had an English website and I had a Spanish website. And all that does is dilute you. That does nothing for your SEO, does nothing for the persona. And if you're talking about branding, for me, this did not work. It might work for other people, but I just park everything in one place and I have different categories. That's just me. Milena: Perfect. I like it. Pilar: And that has worked better. I think it's worked better in consolidating everything because at one time I had like three different websites. It was just crazy. And it just diluted -- Milena: It's a lot to manage. Yeah. Pilar: Exactly. Joe: I mean, Milena, you could put a tab -- you could have your website in English and then put a little tab of in Spanish and then they can click, and then they'll, they'll go to that same site, and you'll have it all translated into Spanish. What I'm not an expert is an SEO and how it behaves looking at a, at a site in one language and if it can complement SEO ratings on the same site. So just because I could, I have the Bilingual Voiceover Guy, but I have both Voces Bilingue, and right now I'm redirecting them. But the idea is to have Voces Bilingue in Spanish and then have it linked to the English one. Anne: And then Joe, you have a page on your, the Bilingual Voiceover Guy, English that also is translated in Spanish, correct? Joe: Yes, because I hadn't had this thing that I just talked about yet. That, that, that was a sort of a patch in the meantime. And funny enough, that page is what's ranking. Anne: I was just gonna say that, if you have that page, if it's all in Spanish, because if somebody doesn't speak English, and they're typing a search term in Spanish, that would match your page, your landing page. And it still comes to your central, you know, I call it the central website, but you've just got another page. Yeah, a separate tab, a landing page. And I think that's a really good strategy that you'll be able to capture the best of both SEO worlds. Yeah. Pilar: Yeah. The tab is essential. Joe: Yeah. The tab, mm-hmm. Anyway, I mean, my thing is work in progress too, but the way I choose to think is that there's 2 billion English speakers, and there's 600,000 Spanish speakers. So that's a market of 2.6 billion. Anne: Yeah. Joe: For each one of us. And sky's the limit. Pilar: Absolutely. Anne: Ramesh, how do you work your website? Do you have a special page dedicated? Ramesh: I just have it in English actually. I think that's, that's definitely something I need to work on to see how I can, but I've -- to be absolutely honest, I'm quite happy with the level of work that I've got right now. So -- Milena: If it ain't broke. Ramesh: -- smooth sailing, I don't wanna sound arrogant, but I'm comfortable. So I, I could perhaps do all these lovely suggestions that you guys have come up with, but perhaps another time. Anne: Well, I don't have another language page, but I have literally four other genre specific pages like website, because I specialize in corporate narration or I specialize in e-learning. So I have the e-learningvoice.com. I have medical-narration.com, phone voice. And so even though I may not get a ton of activity on those sites, the words on those sites get indexed, and it contributes to my SEO. And each of those sites also maps back to my core site, which I think is my core brand of AnneGanguzza.com in addition to my VO BOSS and VO Peeps brands. So I handle probably 11 sites. Pilar: That's next level marketing. Go to AnneGanguzza.com for next level marketing, that's, that's that's our next, our next job. Anne: But yeah, it just helps to be found and it kind of just works on its own. And every once in a while I do have, as a matter of fact, I'm looking to refresh those pages just to make sure they keep generating people, pointing at my website. And again, it's a wonderful position to be in. If you have a, a good amount of work, I think that's amazing. Then things are working for you. And so that's why your advice and everything we're talking about today is so valuable for people that are coming into this industry. So we thank you, guys, so much for joining us. Milena: Thank you for this contest -- Joe: Thank you for having us. Milena: -- and this swag. Hello! Ramesh: Thank you for having us. Anne: I know. So yeah, I do wanna mention the swag. So not only did you guys get, uh, thank you again to Liz Atherton, but also you guys got BOSS swag, which Pilar and Milena are wearing right now. Ramesh: Yeah. Mine's on the way. It'll be here in about next -- Anne: Which it is on the way. As a matter of fact, I will tell you because you're on that little island there, Ramesh, it might take a little longer to get you. Milena: It's gonna come by carrier pigeon. Ramesh: Keep on looking at the skies to make sure the drones are dropping in. Anne: I can't wait to see pictures of you in that t-shirt. Ramesh: Oh, I will. Anne: And Joe with your mug. That's awesome. So. Ramesh: I love it. Super. Anne: You guys, amazing job. Thank you so much. It's been, this has been so wonderful, and we thank you for sharing your wisdom with us, and yeah, I wanna do this like now every six months. Milena: Down for it. Anne: Think we should -- Joe: -- amazing. Anne: You know, right? Ramesh: It would be pleasure. Anne: So what's been going on in six months in the bilingual world? So yeah. Awesome. Well guys, I'm gonna give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You guys can connect and network like we have on ipDTL. Find out more at ipdtl.com. And also I will say that this was recorded today with Riverside. So I'm extremely happy to have given this a try, and thanks for the wonderful video and audio tracks that we're going to get. And one more sponsor, 100 Voices Who Care. If you want to use your voice to make an immediate difference and give back to the communities that give to you, find out more at 100voiceswhocare.org. Thanks, guys, so much for joining us again. It's been amazing and we'll see you next week. Ramesh: Thank you very much. Joe: It was lovely. Milena: Thank you. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Earl Granville, Noah Currier, and Jonathan Lopez of Oscar Mike and Operation Enduring Warrior (OEW), author Alex Banayan, and Bai founder Ben Weiss are today's experts for us to overcome all the different obstacles life throws at us.. Ben Weiss: You've got to be willing to take the path. For me, there's no shortcut. At the end of the day, you can't fail by working hard, you know, because your failures are still if you if they're rooted in hard work, somehow you lean on them, and then– Joe De Sena: You find a way out. Ben: Yeah, you'll find success because there's… Joe: You might find a door on the wall. Ben: Yes!   In this episode, you'll learn: - Find the grit, and the right people, to help you overcome obstacles - Practice and prepare for adversity - Finding “the third door” that no one knows about to get where you want - Going up against the tide in an already dominated industry, growing and navigating the infrastructure to stay relevant If you want to watch the full episodes: Three wounded Veterans want you to be unstoppable - Spartan Up Interview - https://youtu.be/tS2tukmRKMY There is always a way in through the third door | Alex Banayan - https://youtu.be/WUGED4UAHtg 152. Ben Weiss | Why should you unbelieve? - https://youtu.be/bo41sGjW-_w   SPONSOR This episode of Spartan Up is brought to you by DUROLANE, a single injection that may provide up to six months 1 of relief from osteoarthritis knee pain. Risks can include general knee pain and pain at the injection site. You can see full prescribing information at DUROLANE.com.   SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts: http://bit.ly/SpartanUpShow YouTube: http://bit.ly/SpartanUpYT Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1pYBkk1T684YQg7CmoaAZt FOLLOW SPARTAN UP: Spartan Up on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/spartanuppodcast/ Spartan Up on Twitter https://twitter.com/SpartanUpPod CREDITS: Producer: Lake Watters Hosts: Johnny Waite, Joe De Sena Co-Hosts: Sefra Alexandra, Col. Nye Sr Producer: Marion Abrams © 2022 Spartan

Joe - “You woke up one day and you were like, ‘I'm done, I'm not going to the bar?'” Anders Varner - “Yeah, it was, like, pretty much exactly like that.”  In this episode, we look back to some classic episodes to help you figure out your mission going into the new year and letting go of your negative lifestyle. In this episode you'll learn… Understand why you're doing what you're doing and that you have to love it Figure out your mission and your “Grand Vision” Importance of breaking up with your old self so you're not held down You have to move forward If you want to watch the full episodes, Athlete, Model, Mother, and Guru Gabby Reece talks with Spartan Race founder Joe Desena - https://youtu.be/JOsRMmWhSXo The Excuse Destroyer - Jonathan Lopez and Joe De Sena - https://youtu.be/OPrwhqxB-VI Barbell Collective's Anders Varner - Break Up With Yourself - https://youtu.be/4yACk_gZKAM End Indecisiveness / Spartan WAY 059 - https://youtu.be/Zu9j9OjByp8   SPONSORS This episode of Spartan Up is brought to you by FITAID  Race dirty, recover clean with FITAID Sports Recovery Drink. Visit https://www.lifeaidbevco.com/ and enter code SPARTAN30 at checkout to get EXCLUSIVE early access to FITAID's Black Friday 30% off sale.      SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts: http://bit.ly/SpartanUpShow YouTube: http://bit.ly/SpartanUpYT Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1pYBkk1T684YQg7CmoaAZt FOLLOW SPARTAN UP: Spartan Up on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/spartanuppodcast/ Spartan Up on Twitter https://twitter.com/SpartanUpPod CREDITS: Producer: Lake Watters Hosts: Johnny Waite, Joe De Sena Co-Hosts: Sefra Alexandra, Col. Nye Sr Producer: Marion Abrams © 2021 Spartan

How To Find A Business Coach Or Mentor with Jordan Montgomery. My discussion with Jordan involved learning about the various types of performance coaches, the styles, how can someone benefit from a coach and why you would need/want one. I enjoyed this honest conversation with Jordan, his ideas and how well he spoke and conveyed his ideas and message. There's a good chance a performance coach could really improve so many things in your life, that it's worth looking into for sure. Thanks for listening! Joe #thejoecostelloshow #montgomerycompanies #performancecoach Jordan Montgomery Owner - Montgomery Companies Website: https://www.montgomerycompanies.com/ Instagram: @jordanmmontgomery Facebook: @montgomerycompanies LinkedIn: @jordanmmontgomery Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Jordan: Hey, Joe, thanks for having me, man. I've been following your work, and I want to say congratulations on all that you've built and continue to build. And it's an honor to have this conversation with you. Thanks. Joe: Hey, Jordan, welcome to the podcast. Man, I'm glad you're here. I'm excited to talk with you. Jordan: Well, Joe: Thanks Jordan: I appreciate Joe: For coming. Jordan: That question and I'll try to be succinct with my answer, but I grew up in southeast Iowa and a little town called Colonia in Kelowna is the smallest Joe: Thank you, man, I appreciate Jordan: One of the smallest Joe: It. 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Jordan: So Joe: So Jordan: I live in Iowa Joe: The stage Jordan: City, Joe: Is Jordan: Iowa, Joe: Yours. Jordan: Actually just outside of Iowa City and a little small town called Tiffin with my wife Ashley and our three daughters. My wife today runs the business. I run my mouth. We have a full scale coaching and consulting firm, Montgomery Companies. We have several coaching partners, and today we serve several thousand coaching clients. Those clients range from professional athletes to entrepreneurs and salespeople. We do work with some executive leaders at some larger firms. And I just have a blast getting to do what I do. And I meet some really interesting people. We get to help people think more deeply about who they are and where they're headed. And ultimately you get to help people live into who they were created to be. And it's a tremendous blessing. So I had a career in the financial services business, allowed me to pivot into this world pretty open about my professional journey. But at the end of the day, I graduated college 2010 and University of Iowa spent the last 11 years really building a skill set that's allowed us to build a business around coaching, consulting and leading people. So that's kind of the short version of my story. Obviously, there's a lot of twists and turns and gods provide a lot of grace. Jordan: Certainly I've been thankful to be around a lot of the right people. But if you're asking me the short version on how I got to where I'm at today, that's the the short version on Jordan Montgomery. Yeah, I think my dad, at the end of the day, my dad was a family man with a business, not a business man with a family. And I wanted to model that. I wanted to be a family man with a business, not a business man with a family. And I think as a driven type, a young man living in America, I kind of fight that every day. I mean, at the other day, like my wife and my kids are my top priority. But if I say they're my top priority, then that needs to show up in my calendar and that needs to be reflected in how I spend my time. And I want to be respected the most by people who know me the best. And that means that I'm a father first. I'm a husband first. I'm leading my family well. And if I lead inside the walls of my home, then I think I can lead in other areas of my life Joe: Cool. Jordan: As well. But Joe: So Jordan: I just didn't want to be Joe: First Jordan: The guy Joe: Of Jordan: That Joe: All, I love the part Jordan: Built Joe: Where you Jordan: Something Joe: Said Jordan: Professionally Joe: That because your father Jordan: But Joe: Was Jordan: Then Joe: Able Jordan: Sacrificed Joe: To make it, Jordan: Or Joe: You Jordan: Compromised Joe: Gravitated Jordan: In really other Joe: Towards Jordan: Important Joe: That Jordan: Areas Joe: Feeling Jordan: Of life. So Joe: And knowing Jordan: I appreciate Joe: That Jordan: Your pointing Joe: He was Jordan: Back Joe: Able Jordan: To Joe: To Jordan: My Joe: Do Jordan: Father's Joe: It because Jordan: Example. Joe: He owned Jordan: I Joe: His own Jordan: Probably Joe: Business Jordan: Still Joe: So Jordan: Underestimate Joe: Early on Jordan: The impact Joe: For Jordan: That that Joe: You Jordan: Had Joe: And Jordan: On Joe: For Jordan: Me Joe: The listeners, Jordan: As Joe: That Jordan: A young Joe: Triggered Jordan: Kid, but Joe: Something Jordan: He Joe: For you Jordan: Really Joe: That Jordan: Taught Joe: You Jordan: Me Joe: Were able Jordan: What Joe: To say. Jordan: Entrepreneurship Joe: I Jordan: Was Joe: Want Jordan: All about Joe: That for Jordan: In so many Joe: My Jordan: Ways. Joe: Own family and my own kids at some point when I have kids that I have that flexibility to do this. So that was really cool. Not a lot of people have said that in the past on the show when they when they said, oh, I became an entrepreneur because and it was all of these other reasons. But to actually associate it with your father sitting on the sidelines, watching you play sports and concert or whatever it might be, that was really cool. Jordan: Well, and I'll say this to Joe, because there are some entrepreneurs listening that maybe don't have that flexibility, like maybe you're truly in a situation where you've got a team or your businesses in an industry that requires you to work certain hours or whatever. So that's not a shame or guilt. Anyone who's working really hard to provide, because at the end of the day, entrepreneurs are called to work longer hours is just part of the deal. So if you're in that grind right now, here's what I'd encourage you with, is somebody that's going to change and the reason that you're doing what you're doing right now, the reason that you're working as hard as you're working right now is to have the flexibility and the autonomy. And, you know, I also wasn't there for my dad's early years. Like, I missed you know, I was born when my dad was eight to 10 years into being an entrepreneur. So he earned that flexibility. So let's just not forget that that flexibility is earned. And that looks different for every entrepreneur based on the industry Joe: Yeah, that Jordan: That Joe: Was Jordan: You're Joe: Really Jordan: In Joe: Cool, and I Jordan: And Joe: Came Jordan: This Joe: From Jordan: Stage Joe: An entrepreneurial Jordan: Of Joe: Family as well. Jordan: The business Joe: The Jordan: That Joe: Unfortunate Jordan: You're in. Joe: Thing for Jordan: So Joe: Me is that Jordan: I think Joe: My Jordan: That's Joe: Father Jordan: Important to Joe: Could Jordan: Underscore. Joe: Not attend most of my stuff. So when you said it, it kind of hit home and I hold nothing. He's passed on at this point. But I never held a grudge because he just he worked his butt off and and just to provide and create something great. So it never struck me the other way. It wasn't Jordan: Yeah. Joe: Like I was resentful over it. But I just love the way you framed that whole thing. That was really cool. Jordan: Well, yeah, you know, I just I fell in love with sports at a really early age. I just love competition. I loved competing. I love watching other people compete. I love the atmosphere. I love the energy that goes into a sports competition. I'm still the guy, Joe. Like, I will watch one shining moment at the end of the final four for those who are familiar with that show. I cry every year when I watch that one shining, but that little three minute clip. And I think part of the reason I get emotional about that as you watch young people get emotional over competition. And I just loved the rush of competition. I loved watching people give their all to a very specific activity, blood, sweat and tears. And Joe: Yeah, absolutely, Jordan: So Joe: I totally Jordan: I just fell Joe: Agree Jordan: In love with sports Joe: And Jordan: At a young Joe: I'm Jordan: Age. Joe: Still Jordan: I played Joe: Working Jordan: Sports Joe: Like Jordan: All the way Joe: Crazy, Jordan: Through high school. Joe: But Jordan: I did Joe: It's Jordan: Not compete Joe: Just Jordan: In college. Joe: Because Jordan: And Joe: I Jordan: It's something Joe: Don't Jordan: That's Joe: Say no Jordan: Kind Joe: And Jordan: Of Joe: I Jordan: Interesting Joe: Just keep Jordan: About Joe: Adding Jordan: My story Joe: More and more Jordan: And background. Joe: To my plate. 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Joe: Or to Jordan: You Joe: Me, Jordan: Know, Joe: You looked Jordan: At the Joe: Like Jordan: End of the Joe: You Jordan: Day, Joe: Were a football Jordan: I think Joe: Player. Jordan: It athletes Joe: I was like, maybe Jordan: In a really Joe: He played Jordan: Unique Joe: For Jordan: World Joe: The Hawkeyes. Jordan: Where they Joe: I Jordan: Give Joe: Don't Jordan: So Joe: Know. Jordan: Much of their time for such a really, really small window of competition. You know, you think a lot like the average NFL athlete will compete for less than two hours, whistle to whistle over the course of a season. But they can be literally all year round and they'll get paid, graded and evaluated for what they do inside of two hours. All year long, but it's kind of a metaphor for it for all of us, right, because the reality is each one of us is practicing for little moments, for small moments. Some of them we can predict, some of them we can't. But you get paid and your best to show you get paid really, really, really well to be prepared Joe: Hmm. Jordan: In small little windows of time. And so I developed the sort of fascination or obsession with helping athletes prepare and be at their best when that small window of opportunity presents itself and, you know, your clutch, your clutch when you can show up and do normal things. In an abnormal times, so like Derek Jeter, Kobe Bryant, you know, they're considered clutch because at the end of the day, they could show up normal. They could just be who they were because they had practiced so much in the most important windows of time. And it's a really interesting metaphor that we can apply to all of life. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's it's a pursuit of excellence, right, and you know, I'm reading a book right now by Tim Grover, The Unforgiving Race to Greatness, and it's called Winning. And, Joe: Yeah, it's Jordan: You know, there's Joe: And Jordan: So much of what Tim Joe: Again, Jordan: Grover preaches Joe: People Jordan: That I Joe: That Jordan: Really love. Joe: Maybe Jordan: I'm Joe: Just Jordan: Not Joe: Watch sports casually Jordan: Maybe not aligned Joe: Don't Jordan: With one Joe: Understand Jordan: Hundred percent of it, Joe: The Jordan: But Joe: Grueling Jordan: Winning has a price, Joe: Effort Jordan: You know, in Joe: In the lifelong Jordan: Pursuing your Joe: Commitment Jordan: Calling has a price Joe: To potentially Jordan: Regardless Joe: Never, Jordan: Of what you do, Joe: Ever Jordan: You know, sports or otherwise. Joe: Getting Jordan: If you're an Joe: That Jordan: Athlete, Joe: Chance Jordan: Great. But Joe: In Jordan: If Joe: The sports Jordan: You're an entrepreneur, Joe: World and Jordan: There's going to Joe: Used Jordan: Be a cost Joe: To have some really good friends Jordan: Associated Joe: On the Buffalo Jordan: With Joe: Bills Jordan: Your calling. Joe: Football team because Jordan: And Joe: I went to college Jordan: I Joe: Out Jordan: Think Joe: There Jordan: Sports is the epitome Joe: And Jordan: Of that. Joe: I was Jordan: But certainly Joe: A musician. Jordan: Entrepreneurship Joe: I was Jordan: Is Joe: In a band. Jordan: Is Joe: They Jordan: Right Joe: Loved Jordan: There Joe: Our band and they used Jordan: With being Joe: To come Jordan: With being Joe: And Jordan: An athlete Joe: Hang Jordan: In Joe: Out. Jordan: Terms Joe: We've got Jordan: Of Joe: The dinner with Jordan: Making Joe: Them and Jordan: Sacrifice. Joe: You would hear the stories. And it's just to live on the edge of not knowing if you're playing or you're sitting each day and who's who's looking for your spot and the work so hard and give up so much from a really young age all the way through. It's unbelievable. You know, and I watch certain friends here in Arizona, believe it or not, Arizona has got a very big hockey base. You know, like fans love hockey. And there's a lot of kids that come here, play hockey, play on the farm team of the coyotes or and we've had friends that had their kids just go through all in hockey. Moms and dads have the worst it's the worst schedule I've ever seen. And to go all the way to the very end and be on the farm team and never get called up. And I can't even imagine that it's just grueling. Jordan: Yeah, well, you know, there's there's a lot that goes into speaking, right, speaking as an art form, and in today's world, attention is currency. So something we think about a lot and the keynote speaking world is you've got Joe: Mm Jordan: To Joe: Hmm. Jordan: Keep people's attention. And if you can't, you're out, you're done. You'll never be the really high demand keynote speaker if you don't know how to keep somebody's attention. So there's multiple ways that we do that. One of the ways that we keep people's attention is through story. It's a story sell facts, tell. When you get really good Joe: Yeah, Jordan: At telling stories, Joe: Yeah, I Jordan: You keep Joe: Agree. Jordan: People's attention. Joe: Ok, Jordan: In Joe: So Jordan: Fact, Joe: Enough about sports. 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Jordan: Think eye Joe: When I Jordan: Contact Joe: Watched Jordan: And tonality Joe: Even Jordan: Is Joe: The speaking Jordan: Is another Joe: Engagements Jordan: Big one, right? There's Joe: At Jordan: A difference Joe: The corporations Jordan: Between communicating Joe: That you've Jordan: And Joe: Done, Jordan: Connecting. People Joe: You Jordan: Want to feel Joe: Have a really Jordan: Like you're Joe: Good flow. Jordan: Speaking to them Joe: You don't Jordan: Like, Joe: Use Jordan: Wow, Joe: All Jordan: This guy's Joe: Of the Jordan: Speaking directly Joe: Weird words Jordan: To me. Joe: That people use Jordan: And Joe: All the time. Jordan: It sounds Joe: Tell Jordan: So Joe: Me Jordan: Simple, Joe: How you do Jordan: But what's Joe: It. Jordan: Common sense is not always kind of practice. If you watch your average keynote speaker, their eyes will kind of drift all throughout the room to look down, look sideways. I think at the speaker, you want to keep constant eye contact. And then the other thing I think about is being really you centered in the message being you centered. So I'm going to use two people's names. I'm going to pick people out in the crowd. I'm going to touch people, maybe even on the shoulder or the arm as I'm speaking. And I'm going to move through the crowd. And so much of communication is nonverbal, right? 90 percent is nonverbal. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And it's also not what you say. It's what people hear and it's what they remember. Maya Angelou famously said it's not what you say that people remember. It's how you make them feel. And so I try to stay really in tune with how I make people feel. A lot of that is my energy, my body language. It's you focus communication, it's telling stories, and it's the difference between connecting and communicating. So if you're listening and you're thinking about your communication style or maybe you want to develop your craft as a keynote speaker, those are a few things that you could consider. Jordan: And I'll say this to Joe. I'm a long way away from where I want to be. I got a long way to go. So those are things that I think about repetitiously. And I get obsessed with the practice of my craft. And I'm evaluating and observing high level keynote speakers. You know, how do they move? What do they say? What do they not say? You know, their pace, their tonality, the way that they tell stories, their presence. Yeah, those are all things that I'm paying attention to. So I appreciate your kind words. I think communication as an art form is no different than playing an instrument or doing a dance. And for anybody that's in sales, for any entrepreneur, if you're not taking that seriously as you develop and grow your business, that's something to really consider and think about. Because whether you're speaking to an audience of one hundred or a thousand or an audience of five or ten, you're in the human connection business before you're in the construction business or before you're in the marketing business or financial planning business or real estate business. We've got to remember that the human connection is at the center of everything that we do. Well, thank you. It's kind of you to say. I did and I went to school for interdepartmental studies, which is a fancy way to cover recreational management, so I literally wanted to go to school, have a great social experience, and then start a business and the fitness world. Jordan: That was kind of my dream. And so I took some entrepreneurial courses, got a degree in recreation management, fell into finance and in two things were true. I didn't want to have a boss, so I went to work for myself and I wanted to create my own schedule that that was it. I want to call my shots, create my own schedule. But I didn't have any money and I didn't have any experience. And so I fell into financial services because it allowed me to be in business for myself, but not by myself. So I had a great support system. It was kind of like a franchise model, had a lot of success in that world at an early stage, had a big event in my life in twenty fifteen that really have me thinking about my future in a deeper way. And then I decided to pivot into sort of the consulting and coaching world making financial planning, kind of our kind of our core client. And so in a very early stage in a coaching business, financial advisers were some of our first clients by way of my background in the financial planning world. Joe: Yeah, and you do it incredibly well, my friend. So thank you. So let's just backtrack really quickly so that I can get the progression from college into starting this company. So did you go to school for finance? Jordan: I think it's so true Joe: Ok. Jordan: In life and in business, definitely in entrepreneurship, where we're leading people, that more is caught than taught. Joe: Ok. Jordan: And so nobody really taught me how to coach. But I watched other people coach and I watched other people in my industry that do what I'm doing now, do it at a really high level. And again, I paid attention to quality of life. I paid attention to the relationships. I paid attention to the way that they manage their decisions and manage their time. And I thought, you know, I want to do that. I think I can do that. And I actually did it in tandem with my own financial planning. And so I started sort of coaching on the side and I had really been coaching all the while I was in financial planning and some aspect working with clients. But I also started getting asked to speak and do workshops. And so I sort of fell in love with that work, Joe. But the reality is I had a couple of mentors. I had some key people in my life that had done that work in a really high level. One of those people is a guy by the name of Ben Newman. Another guy is John Wright Senior. And they both had Joe: How did Jordan: Big Joe: Coaching Jordan: Coaching Joe: Catch your Jordan: Practices Joe: Eye, or Jordan: Working with Joe: Was it because Jordan: Professional Joe: You were Jordan: Athletes Joe: Just taking Jordan: And Fortune Joe: From Jordan: 500 Joe: Your Jordan: Executive Joe: Love of Jordan: Leaders. Joe: Sports Jordan: And Joe: Being a coach? Right. Jordan: I just Joe: I Jordan: Admired Joe: Mean, just Jordan: The work. Joe: Taking Jordan: I thought, Joe: That, Jordan: You know, Joe: But Jordan: I think Joe: Now Jordan: I Joe: Saying, Jordan: Can Joe: Ok, Jordan: Do that. Joe: Wait, Jordan: I got a lot to learn, Joe: I want Jordan: But Joe: To do a little Jordan: I'll Joe: Bit Jordan: Learn Joe: Of that Jordan: As I Joe: With Jordan: Go. Joe: Sports Jordan: And Joe: People. I want to do that with Jordan: Just Joe: Entrepreneurs. Jordan: Like you or any Joe: I want Jordan: Other Joe: To do Jordan: Entrepreneur, Joe: It with Jordan: You Joe: With Jordan: Kind Joe: Business Jordan: Of dive headfirst Joe: People. Jordan: And just Joe: I mean, Jordan: Hope Joe: What Jordan: It works Joe: Made Jordan: Out. Joe: You Jordan: So Joe: Wake up one day and Jordan: Our Joe: Say, Jordan: Business Joe: Yeah, Jordan: Grew Joe: I Jordan: Rapidly, Joe: Want to do coaching and Jordan: By Joe: I Jordan: God's Joe: Want to Jordan: Grace, Joe: Do it Jordan: Into Joe: In Jordan: The help Joe: This Jordan: Of a lot Joe: Form? Jordan: Of good people. And I woke up one day and I thought, you know what? I could leave my financial planning business based on what we built in the coaching business. And then we started to add more partners and multiply our efforts through other people. And that's when it really starts to get financed, when you can impact the world or you can impact the world around you through the people that work with you. So virtually everybody on our team right now, with the exception of maybe two to three people there in the coaching business, so their coaching partners, so they're leading, they're doing coaching and consulting work, either individual coaching group, coaching, keynote speaking, they're all contracted out. So some of them have five clients, some of them have 30 clients. We have a couple that have just a couple of clients and they're all sort of specialized. So we have some former professional athletes. We have some people that came from the ministry world. So they're actually pastors or they have been pastors. And then we have some people in the world of sales. We have some real estate agents and financial advisers. Some of them are very technical. Somebody might say a more motivational, but all of them are for hire as coaching partners. It's my job to lead them and make sure that they're getting what they need from a content standpoint and also just keeping them connected to to a vision and and keeping them connected to our company. But we're having a ton of fun. I mean, it's it's awesome to be on a team. It's fun to be a part of something that's bigger than just me. And, you know, each one of them is unique in terms of what they bring to the table. Joe: So that's a great segue because you do have a fairly Jordan: You Joe: Sizable Jordan: Know, what's Joe: Team. Jordan: Most important Joe: So Jordan: To us, Joe, Joe: What Jordan: Is that Joe: Do those Jordan: We all Joe: Team Jordan: Have Joe: Members Jordan: Similar Joe: Do Jordan: Values, Joe: For you? Jordan: So I want to give people the freedom and flexibility to be autonomous and how they work with clients. And so I've never told somebody, hey, here's the five step plan. Here's exactly what you have to do. Now, I'll make some general suggestions about the way that we lead people and care for people. But at the end of the day, most of the people that are on our coaching platform have been wildly successful in other arenas. And so they've been leading. They've been coaching. They've been training and developing people. So I think we're aligned in terms of our values. But beyond that, I want them to really operate in their true giftedness. And for some of them, that giftedness is in listening. You know, for some of them, it's in the world of neuroscience. You know, they just really understand how the brain works for others. They're just big on accountability, the kind like the bulldog that's in your face. It's really intense and motivational. So we want people to be who they are. We want them to have strong values, which for us means their faith filled and family oriented. And if they're faith filled, family oriented, others focus. They're usually a good fit for our coaching Joe: Did Jordan: Practice. Joe: They follow Jordan: And then, of course, Joe: A Jordan: There Joe: Certain Jordan: Are some other criteria Joe: Structure Jordan: That we want to Joe: That Jordan: Vet Joe: You Jordan: Out. Joe: Have Jordan: But Joe: Set up Jordan: That's Joe: So Jordan: A that's Joe: That Jordan: A good question. Joe: When someone hires one of those people, they know that if they're getting the quality of the Montgomery companies coach and there's a certain structure formula, something like that? The. Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, I would say that's that's very true of of our team, I think we're well positioned to help just about anybody in any industry with any problem. You know, there's a few that we would say, hey, we're not not licensed to do that. We're not going to dive into that space. But for the most part, if it is in the world of performance sales and driving results, there's somebody on our team that can handle the issue of the opportunity. Yes, so there's really two components to coaching for us and our business model, one is group coaching and one individual coaching, and those are obviously very separate. If I'm working with an individual client and we're talking about the phases of coaching or how I work with a client, first is discovery. So the answers you get are only as good as the questions that you ask. And people don't care how Joe: Cool. Jordan: Much you know Joe: Well, Jordan: Until Joe: I Jordan: They Joe: Just Jordan: Know that you care. Joe: It's important Jordan: And Joe: Because Jordan: To Joe: I Jordan: Us, Joe: When Jordan: It's Joe: I Jordan: A Joe: Went Jordan: Relationship. Joe: And looked at the website, I was like, Jordan: And Joe: This Jordan: So Joe: Is this Jordan: I Joe: Is Jordan: Always Joe: Cool. Jordan: Tell Joe: You Jordan: People, Joe: Have a Jordan: Hey, Joe: Really Jordan: I'm Joe: Cool team Jordan: A coach, Joe: Around Jordan: Which means Joe: You. And Jordan: I'm Joe: I Jordan: Going Joe: Wanted Jordan: To hold Joe: To Jordan: You Joe: Find Jordan: Accountable. Joe: Out if there Jordan: I'm Joe: Was Jordan: Going Joe: A variety Jordan: To share ideas Joe: In Jordan: Where to talk about Joe: What Jordan: Concepts Joe: They Jordan: And strategy, Joe: Coach on Jordan: Just Joe: Which Jordan: Like Joe: You Jordan: Any Joe: Answered Jordan: Coach Joe: That question. They Jordan: Would. Joe: Do. You have people that Jordan: The Joe: Specialize Jordan: Difference Joe: In Jordan: In Joe: All Jordan: Our Joe: Sorts Jordan: Approach, Joe: Of things. Jordan: I Joe: So Jordan: Think, is Joe: It's Jordan: That Joe: Great Jordan: I'm also Joe: That Jordan: A Joe: If Jordan: Strategic Joe: Someone Jordan: Partner. Joe: Loves working with you for all Jordan: And so Joe: The reasons Jordan: If I sign Joe: That Jordan: Up Joe: They Jordan: To work Joe: Love Jordan: With a client, Joe: To work with you, they Jordan: What Joe: Can Jordan: That means Joe: Get Jordan: Is Joe: Basically whatever Jordan: I'm going Joe: They Jordan: To advocate, Joe: Need under one roof, Jordan: I'm going Joe: Which Jordan: To support, Joe: Is cool. It's Jordan: I'm Joe: Not Jordan: Going Joe: Like Jordan: To connect Joe: You do. It's not one Jordan: And Joe: Dimensional Jordan: I'm going to highlight Joe: In any Jordan: And spotlight Joe: Any way, Jordan: Who Joe: Shape Jordan: You Joe: Or form. Jordan: Are and what you do. That means that my network is your network. It means if you want to speak engaged, we're going to help you with that. If you need marketing help or we're going to help you with that. If I need to get you connected to another leader, I'm going to help you with that. If we need help, you track down a client or prospect, I'm going to help you with that. So it's our approach is a little bit different that way. It's it's heavily based around relationship. The relationship has to start with Joe: All right, Jordan: Discovery. Joe: Cool. So let's talk about Jordan: One of my Joe: The Jordan: Other Joe: Coaching Jordan: Beliefs, Joe, is Joe: Part Jordan: That if Joe: Of it, Jordan: I'm working Joe: And Jordan: With a client, Joe: If Jordan: It's always Joe: You can go through Jordan: 100 percent Joe: And tell Jordan: Of the time, Joe: Me the Jordan: Their time, not Joe: Different Jordan: Mine. Joe: Types Jordan: Which Joe: Of Jordan: Means Joe: Services Jordan: I've got to Joe: That Jordan: Deal Joe: You Jordan: With Joe: Have Jordan: The issues, Joe: For the coaching Jordan: The Joe: Piece Jordan: Opportunities Joe: Of. Jordan: And the challenges that are most present for them right away before I try to drive my agenda. So if I show up to the call and I say, hey, Joe, here's three things I want to talk about today. Here's the here's the new approach to closing a sale or here's the new approach to the discovery process or whatever. And I find out that your dog just died or that you just lost the key employee or that your house just burned down. But I'm using really dramatic examples. But anyway, the point, is there something else on your mind? I'm missing it. I'm not know I've failed to connect with you, and candidly, I failed to lead you. So the first question I asked to all of our coaching clients and a coaching meeting, and they would tell you, this is not to say, hey, Joe, how do we create space to discuss and talk about the things that are most pressing, interesting and relevant for you today? I want to start there and then we'll recap and we'll talk about some of the stuff that we've talked about the past. I'm always, you know, forcing accountability. So we're we're bringing things to the forefront. Did you do X, Y and Z to do that or Yapp with that? But we addressed the issues that are most present. And then I'm always trying to share ideas and concepts that I feel like are relevant to them based on the seasonal life there in industry they're in or what they've said that they needed help with. Conversations tend to be fairly organic because, again, it's it's a relationship. And, you know, people open up to us about all kinds of stuff, their marriage, their finances, their friendships, their their problems that go way beyond their professional life. Jordan: So I appreciate the question. I don't know if I if I answered it exactly. But to give you a window into our world and how we work with people, that that's sort of our our process and style. You know, right now we work with such a wide range of people, Joe, so I'm not as concerned about like industry or niche. Here's what I what I'm really concerned with this character traits. So they've got to be values oriented, right? They got to care. They're going to be a decent person. In other words, if they just want to go make all the money in the world, they don't want to leave their family. I'm probably not a good fit. I'm going to challenge them on their values and lead in their family and growing in their faith. And that's part of who I am. But that's not for everybody. But so we're probably not a good fit if that's not part of who they are. And then the second thing that I would tell you is they got to be open minded. They have to be willing to learn. They have to be somebody that enjoys new information and new ways of thinking. A new perspective, fresh perspective. Right. Doesn't mean that I'm always right or my perspective is the right perspective. It just means that they're willing to listen right there. They're willing to hear and then they're willing to be challenged. So they want somebody to ask them the tough questions and share the truth and mix even said it best. You said average players want to be left alone. Good players want to be coached, great players want the truth. I want people that want the truth. I want people that really want to be challenged. Joe: Great. Jordan: They've Joe: So Jordan: Got Joe: Before Jordan: An open Joe: We Jordan: Mind Joe: Move to Jordan: And they have strong Joe: A Jordan: Values. Joe: Group coaching piece Jordan: And Joe: Of it, Jordan: If they've Joe: Because Jordan: Got those Joe: We just Jordan: Three Joe: Talked Jordan: Things, Joe: About the one on Jordan: They're Joe: One. Jordan: Usually a good fit for Joe: What's Jordan: Our coaching Joe: Your sweet Jordan: Practice. Joe: Spot? Who who are the people that you feel you work best with or can can help the best. Jordan: So the group coaches typically kind of a one hour session, we try to kind of meet people where they're at. So I work with organizations, as do our partners, to figure out, hey, what really do you need? What's the right time frame? What's the right size? I'd love to tell you that we've got, like, this specific program. It's cookie cutter. It's not. But that's by design. We really want to be a partner and meet people where they're at. So sometimes it's a small as is five people. I've got one group right now, 60, which I think is a little too big. What's important to us is that that's it's intimate or as intimate as it can be where people really feel like, you know, them. And and so we call on people. I try to get to know everybody by name and remember little facts about who they are and what's important to them. It's highly interactive. So I'm calling on people throughout the session. Usually I'm delivering 30 minutes of content or 30 minutes of discussion. We challenge challenge on the spot. I have other people challenge each other. I always say this in our group coaching program that where you sit determines what you see and you see something different than everybody else's and different is valuable. And so what that means is your voice matters because whether you're the most experienced person on the call are the least experienced person on the call, you see something that nobody else in the organization sees. And so we need your voice. We need your perspective, because you've got a different perspective than everybody else. So, Johnny, that sits at the front desk, that's the director of First Impressions, has some really valuable Joe: Awesome, Jordan: Perspective Joe: I Jordan: Because Joe: Love Jordan: Johnny Joe: That. OK, cool. Jordan: Sees Joe: So Jordan: Something Joe: The group Jordan: That Sarah, Joe: Coaching, Jordan: The CEO, Joe: What does that entail? Jordan: Doesn't see. And so we really just try to foster conversation, encourage people and empower people to share and speak up and then deliver content that's inclusive and relevant to the group. Yes, so much of our business is virtual, it just kind of always has been and most a lot of our clients aren't local. So they're you know, they're kind of spread out. We have people all over the US. I'm pretty used to Zoom calls and phone calls, and I speak a lot. Right. So keynote speaking is live often, but we still do virtual keynotes as well. So it's a good mixture, I would say, in so many ways covid changed our business. I was always willing to do things virtually, but I think a lot of companies weren't until they realized like, hey, we can do it this way. And so for me, as a person with a young family, it allowed me to stay at home and I didn't have to. I wasn't on a plane twice a week sleeping in a hotel. So so covid in some ways I'd be careful how I say this, because it was a really difficult time for a lot of people for our business. It actually affected my day to day rhythm or quality of life and I think a positive way and allowed me to be more present with my family. So it's a good mix of both. But I would say the pandemic certainly forced it to be more virtual. Joe: The coaching business, covid or not covid, were you doing live coaching up until that point and now a lot of Jordan: Yeah, Joe: It has shifted Jordan: I would say Joe: Onto Jordan: A good Joe: Like Zoom Jordan: Portion Joe: Calls and things Jordan: Of Joe: Like Jordan: Our Joe: That, Jordan: Clients Joe: Or Jordan: Are either Joe: How your Jordan: In Joe: Business Jordan: Sales or entrepreneurs, Joe: Today and what's Jordan: You know, Joe: The Jordan: So Joe: Mixture Jordan: There Joe: Of live Jordan: In fact, Joe: Versus Jordan: I would say it's Joe: Online? Jordan: Probably 80 percent of our business, either business owners or they're in sales and then there's maybe 20 percent that are in the world of executive leadership or sports. So that's kind of a mix of our business. When I say executive leadership, they're a leader in some sort of a corporate setting, but it's starting to change more every day. Like we work. I work right now with a group of physicians. We've got a gal that owns a very successful cosmetology clinic. So her whole thing is cosmetology Joe: Yep. Jordan: And she's been wildly successful and real estate agents and financial advisors and and college athletes and pro athletes. And so it's a it's a it's a wide range of people. Joe: Perfect out of the clients that you have, what is the percentage of general corporations, then entrepreneurs and then sports related? OK. Awesome. OK, we're closing in on the amount of time that I have you for, which is unfortunate because I love talking with you and I love your approach. 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First of all, have 20 years of experience, a team of 20 people there doing tens of millions of dollars revenue, that they're very successful. And so they hire us. They hire me to come in and do coaching work with them. And every one of them has sort of a different set of needs. But one of the things that we always talk about, at least on some level, is our communication style. Right, because they're in sales and they're communicating all day, every day for a living. So I challenge this financial advisor. Usually within the first few meetings, I'll say, hey, I want you to send me your approach language, which is really their what they say to engage a client and conversation. So it's a first time meeting and this is the first five minutes of sort of the introductory meeting. And I can I can feel their energy when I when I challenge them and I say, I want you to send me that communication. Their energy is like at a negative to. Right, they're thinking you're going to bill me X for coaching, I've been doing this for 20 years, like what I don't need is help on the basics of what I say. And, you know, I can just feel that just not really excited about that. Jordan: But I challenge him. I say I think this is a really important part of our work together. It helps me understand who you are and how you're showing up for people. So send that over when you get some time. So they send it over and it's not going to have all the answers. But I'm willing to listen to it repeatedly. Our team listens to it repeatedly. And then we give them an analysis. We give them feedback. The energy level, when we give them feedback, goes from a negative two to a 10. Every single time. Because they do not know what they do not know. And I just had a guy the other day, I said, OK, so when the first two minutes of your communication, you said the word thirty seven times. Did you know that? You know, hey, the way that you show up, did you know that you use me focused conversation? Over and over, you are literally saying I my, me repeatedly. And you were doing it for 20 years and nobody has ever told you that you're doing it, and that's a shame because you would connect with people and a deeper and more meaningful way because you would be able to drive better results. You would have more purposeful conversation if you could just make that one small tweak. Jordan: You know, we could end the conversation at the cozy relationship right there, and the time that we had spent together would have been massively impactful. Again, not because I have all the answers, but because I'm willing to listen, give real feedback and press in on blind spots that we all have. And the last thing I'll say is people need to be encouraged. You know, people will go farther than they think they can when someone else thinks they can, period. And I don't care for the most successful person, the least successful person, the most experienced, the least experienced. I'm working with a guy the other day, Fortune 500, executive leader, big time leader of people. They had a record breaking year at the firm. Unbelievable year. This guy is in charge of literally hundreds of direct reports. And I asked him in a conversation, I just said, hey, how many people told you over this past fiscal year? So you just wrapped up the year. How many people told you? Good job. And he says, well, like, what do you mean? I said, you know what I mean? Like e-mails, texts, phone calls. Like how many people reached out to you said, hey, good job, great you. And he said, Zira. Zero people had picked up the phone and sent a text instead of an email, so the point is this job that I've worked with, this guy named John. Jordan: So the point is this, John, that you need to be encouraged. You need somebody to point out what you're doing. Well. You need somebody to touch your heart and remind you of who God made you to be and all of the natural God given giftedness that's inside of you. And I just want to share with you it's an honor to be able to do that for you and with you. But let me let me help you see what I see. Let's look back at the last 12 months. Here's what you've achieved. In that moment, I think I think when you step into somebody's life in that way, you're a lid lifter and you do it authentically and you help them see more and you help them see before. Man, I think you're in a position of strength relationally. And I think that person at that moment realizes that that relationship means more than they ever realized. So there's a lot that we can say about coaching. But I think, Joe, when you touch somebody's heart, when you appreciate people for who they are, when you point out their God given gift A. and when you deliver the truth and love and you point out the blindspots, you can be a world class coach and it has nothing to do with what you know, it's all about. Jordan: You show up and serve people. Well, that's just my answer. I don't know if it's the right answer by anybody else's standard, but in my world, it's the way that I try to live each and every day with the people that we serve. I love it. Yeah, so here's what I'd say, we do a lot of work through social media, so Instagram is probably where I'm most active. I'm Jordan and Montgomery on Instagram, so I would love it. If you want to get in touch to send a direct message, I'll communicate back with you. I would love to connect Montgomery Companies dot com is on our website. I'm also active on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and if anybody reaches out, I will gladly respond. If you got a question, if you're wrestling with an issue, an opportunity I'd love to talk to it with and be of service to anybody listening. And Joe, I want to say thank you for having me on your show. It's an honor. It's always an honor to share your great with the questions that, yes, it's very clear that you showed up prepared and you also had great energy. And so I just want to say thank you for your time and attention. Thanks for who you are and for what you're putting out into the world. It's making a difference. I. Right back at you, brother.

Results Coaching Model with Brian Lovegrove Brian Lovegrove has been on his journey of personal growth and professional development since the age of 17. Inspired by Tony Robbins, he has created not only a catalyst but a unique approach and process to helping others, like you, achieve their goals. He believes in providing & building upon the knowledge most coaches provide by practicing these lessons and building a HABIT! Using his "5 Keys of Success" in his coaching, he is a firm believer that if these keys are used, failure is all but eliminated. In this episode, we learn about all the tactics Brian uses and has honed over the years of being a coach and we did into a few of these methods during our conversation. As always, thanks so much for listening! Joe Brian Lovegrove Leadership Developer and Results Coach Website: https://brianlovegrovecoaching.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brianslovegrove LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlovegrove/ Live Masterclass: https://www.becomeunstoppable.info 5 Keys to Success Podcast: https://5-keys-of-success.simplecast.com/ Unleash Your Fear eBook: https://www.unleashyourfear.com/freebook Email: lovegrove@lovegroveltd.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hi Brian, welcome to the podcast. I'm looking forward to having you on so many things I have to ask you, because you hit a core thing here with training, personal development courses, all of these things that I read about. And it's going to be interesting to find out your answers to these burning questions I asked. Brian: All right, Joe, I'm looking forward to it. Let's get rocking and rolling here. Joe: Awesome. OK, so you have to bear with me, because I literally do this with every single person on my podcast, is that I think it's important for my audience, who I believe is mostly entrepreneurs, whether they're currently doing their thing or they want to do their thing or they're struggling, doing their thing or whatever it might be. I think it's important for them to know the back story of the person that is on, because it's important to understand the development of where you came from and how you got to where you are today. And I think a lot of those things that you talk about actually people listening, going, oh, yeah, I've been there. I did that. I remember that. So I always leave this open to saying you can go back as far as you want, because if something in elementary school created who you are today, I want the audience to know about it so you can start wherever you want. Brian: Well, people ask me how I got introduced to personal development in the first place, and I actually go back to junior high. My dad was a commercial real estate broker and I grew up in Montana. And any time we would leave town, we would go on a long trip. And so he would pull out these tapes from work. And this was, of course, back before the iPods. The noise canceling headphones in that great, wonderful device that many of us grew up with, the Sony Walkman, Joe: Near Brian: Whatever Joe: And dear to my Brian: He Joe: Heart. Brian: Put into that. Yes. Yes. And so I got stuck listening to whatever was in the tape deck. And so I got introduced to guys like Earl Nightingale, Jim Roan and my favorite Zig Ziglar. And listening to those guys, Dennis Wailea, on and on and on and on, they taught me what it was to be an entrepreneur. And I remember Ziggs saying, treat every job as if you were the owner of the business and those HAQQ series that I listened to through junior high and high school shaped me in my choices in college. I actually got a degree in professional sales because of a I was originally going for a management degree my first year. My sister was two years ahead of me and she told me after my freshman year and says, you know what, Brian, you might want to consider changing majors because the people that I know that are graduating with management degrees are struggling to find jobs. And I went back and that that prompted me to ask a really good deep question at all. I don't know, 18. I asked myself, what career, what major, what level of information do I need to get while you're at college that would regardless of what happens to the industry, because I knew, you know, it's going to be out here in the marketplace for over 50 years. What degree do I need to go get that will? Regardless of what's going to happen, the ups and downs of the industry, whether we end up in another recession, we end up in another depression, that I would always have an opportunity to have a job if I wanted one. Brian: And that always brought me back to the sales aspect that Zig always mentioned, because, again, he did a lot of his sales around the Depression area and that that aspect of life where it's like how do you survive? How do you keep going in those areas? And it's really the salespeople that make the world go round. And so that's what led me to a sales degree. The other decision that I made when I was 17 was I got introduced to a guy named Tony Robbins and I bought his first tape series. Imagine a freshman in college spending probably a month of his earnings on a tape series. And I bought Tony's unlimited power. I still have the tapes are used today, actually gone and bought a second set because I wore out one of those tapes so that because I listened to it so much and I followed Tony ever since, I actually helped promote and put on his seminars for one of his franchises. And along the way, I've always been doing personal development, personal growth, and, you know, a lot I loved it. I just ate it up. But one of the big challenges that I ran into, I turned 40. Brian: It was like, why am I not far enough along? I've been doing this for 20 years. Why am I just here? Because at the time I was struggling to pay the bills. I was struggling to get by. My wife was working. We had two small kids. And I thought by the time I turned 40, I would have been much farther along by now. And so in this process, I realized it wasn't until much later that learning is not enough to make lasting change. I was actively learning. I was seeking the puzzle pieces, the pieces of information that was missing in my life. And I figured once I learned that then life would be easy and I'd be making all this money. But that never happened because I never did. The one thing that I learned all the way back in the beginning from XG is you have to do it until you get good enough at it, till it becomes your new normal. And only then, once you've applied and implement those strategies in your life, will they actually work for you. And you've got to do it long enough to get good enough at it and then continue to stick with it to where you can actually allow the compounding effect to, you know, you slowly creep and then you kind of turn that corner and it goes straight up. And it took me 50 years to hit that. Joe: So I'm going to go back real quick because I want to know what triggered you to buy that Tony Robbins course. You know, I know you were listening to this stuff in the car with your father on the Walkman or whatever else you were doing it. I mean, a kid at 17 doesn't do that. So what triggered it? Brian: Well, I had read the book, his book had come out and I had read the book and I really loved he had such a different style and he was talking about different things and he was talking about the things in the mind and he was talking about he and the different aspects there. And a lot of that was like, oh, my gosh, this stuff makes so much sense. And I was applying some of those strategies and I was seeing specific results. And I was like, and that's really what made me buy in. In fact, that's probably one of the few programs that I really started implementing strategy on. One of the big strategies you talked about was marketing Meeri, and it was one that I specifically used as I got into my initial first jobs and sales career. But I used on a consistent basis to help me actually get as far as long as I did. Joe: Ok, I'm still going to ask the question, because I'm not sure if you answered it yet. Why would a 17 year old buy the book like 17 year olds don't don't get into this stuff. So and I think it's important to figure out what triggered it for you. Brian: Well, again, I think it has to do with that was the next step, I the company that was putting those out was Nightingale Conant Joe: Yeah. Brian: And my dad would get those and I probably was home. I don't remember where I was when I got it. I might have gone home for Thanksgiving or Christmas. And I grabbed the magazine I love looking at because again, I've been doing this for a number of years now. And I was like, what? What's the new stuff they got? You know, Wayne Dyer was there and you know, you know who who are who's the new people? And there was this new one from this guy named Tony Robbins. And I don't know, I guess it just resonated with me. And I think it was seventy five bucks. And it was like and to be honest with you, I really can't say what prompted me to go. I want that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But I think it was more of the sales pitch in the description of what it promised me. Joe: Got it. Brian: More than anything, that's what I would say it was based upon the results that were promised, based upon the description of the tape series. Joe: Ok, so you've been around that sort of thing for a long time, right? And if correct me if I'm wrong at any point, because I want to make sure this is super clear to the listeners, is that from what I get of what we're going to go still back, I still have other stuff to do, but I want to kind of set the stage of your expertise or what you believe is, is how you can help people. As you said, you can buy all the courses and attend all the conferences and do all of this stuff. You've said it here. You set it on your website. The enthusiasm kind of goes away when life gets in the way. Right. It's basically that simple. You come back from the high of of being at a conference or are listening to something and then life literally just gets in the way and you don't get the things done that you promised yourself that you would. So my understanding is that you are basically this coach that is going to keep you on track. Whether life gets in the way or not, you're basically going to be this person that is going to bring people along through all of this and keep them accountable to what they promise themselves that they would do and make sure that they do all of the things that are needed without shelving anything because life got in the way. Is that fair? Brian: Right, it is because, again, you know, Tony is great if you've ever been to one of his big events, you P.W. he he can talk nine thousand people into walking across twelve hundred degree recalls in a day. Joe: Yeah. Brian: By the end of day one, he's got you walking across Coles. But again, how do you can't maintain that energy and that excitement and the momentum of that event for weeks, months, years to get to where you want to go? And Tony has admitted that this is an area that he struggles with, is how do I get people to keep going? Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Which is one of the reasons why he has his coaching program that you can go and pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a coach for a year, and it's one of the reasons why he actually created the pyramids, Madonna's training group, to train people like me to be coaches that help people implement his strategies. And that's really what it comes down to, is how do you take the strategies that, you know, you need to be doing and implement them? One of the biggest challenges in society today is we don't teach people discipline for the most part. There's a few places that that happens. But outside of that, it's not encouraged. In fact, it's almost especially in today's society, you're not responsible, you know, being responsible for yourself, being accountable. That goes out the window. And yet that's how you are going to be successful. That's how you're going to get to where you want to go. Unfortunately, society is teaching people to be cheap and to live in mediocrity. That is not how you're going to get to where you want to go, because I'm assuming that most people here are entrepreneurs. Joe: Mm Brian: They're Joe: Hmm. Brian: Entrepreneurs for a reason because they are sick and tired of working for somebody else's dreams. And so they want to pursue their own dreams or they think they can do it better. And so they're out there trying to do it on their own. But there's a myth that goes with that is the fact that they have to do it on their own, they have to try to figure it out all by themselves. And some of my best clients are the people that have gone to school to learn how to do what they want to do, a chiropractor or a massage therapist, the tradesperson, they know how to either pound nails Turner Ranch, adjust somebody's back, but they don't necessarily know how to do this thing called run a business. And so there's certain aspects that come into play because my my ideal market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional who's out there wanting to make a difference in their world, in their communities and their lives to make a bigger impact. But they're struggling to do that because they're trying to deal with all of the distractions and all the stuff that's coming at us. And it's like, how do I get a hold of that? How do I how do I focus on those things that truly matter that are going to move the needle for me and my business? And that's really where I come alongside them. Brian: And I say that specifically because I can't take the journey for you, but I'm happy to take the journey with you. And see, that's where the big challenge is, is a lot of people feel like they go to the seminar, which is, OK, here's how you go climb a mountain. Here's the equipment you're going to need and what happens to the trainer. They get all loaded up. They load them up and they say, go have fun. And they go walking down the path. And the river that they were told was a small creek is now this raging river, the bridge that they were supposed to be able to go across was washed out. And it's not like, what the heck am I supposed to do now? They weren't prepared for what they're going to experience or they didn't get enough information. That's one of the things that I always felt in the training classes and seminars I went to. I always felt like there was a piece of information missing. And there's only so much that somebody can teach you. You actually have to go experience it for yourself in order to develop those nuances that are really going to make a difference for you. Joe: Yeah, and I think that there are very, very, very few people in the world that can and you hit it on the head, the discipline that they will actually take, what they've learned, whether it's in a chorus, it's at a seminar or whatever, and actually implement it and be accountable to themselves. I think that's a really, really small pool of people. And so Brian: It is. Joe: Because the Olympics just happened, if we even made an analogy of like you went to class to become a gymnast and you said in a week long seminar to learn all of the different moves and tricks and flips and things, and then you just don't go and show up and start doing that. You have a coach that's watching you Brian: Right. Joe: And and helping you understand all of those things and the mechanics of it. So to me, that's what you're that's really where you help, is that you are there to, like I said earlier, to to to to push them, keep them on track, assist them with when they Brian: The. Joe: Hit roadblocks. You're by their side throughout the whole process. Right. Brian: Right, and I think so many times we have this misunderstanding because we've been taught that learning is going and sitting in class. And that's not necessarily true, but unfortunately, the self development industry has taken this model of let's bring them in, sit them down, overwhelm them with information, make them feel like they're drinking from a firehose so they feel like we've given them a tremendous amount of value and then send them on their way. And so the more people we can pack into that room, the better we make more money that way. Yeah, we actually end up doing a disservice to the customer, to the client, because at the end there is no support. And so how do you make sure somebody has what they need in order to actually achieve the results they want? And that is challenging along the way. And we've created several ways for people to do that because, again, money gets in the way. I mean, if you have enough money, you can find somebody that's going to come alongside and help you get to where you want to go. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But we actually started one hundred bucks a month. We've got programs where you can get that at least some help along the way to get you to where you want to go. And we grow from there. But it comes down to this process of how do we get you to take the actions you know you need to take? How do we get you to move forward consistently? And it's just like the example you used is great. The one that I love to use is the example of going to get into shape. You don't go to the gym for three days straight and be done. That doesn't cut Joe: It's. Brian: It. You know, usually you go once for a few hours and you're like, oh my God, you wake Joe: Yeah. Brian: Up the next day and you can't move. And so it's like, why would you expect you to be able to do that in the other areas of your life? Joe: Yeah, I go to the gym five days a week and I still am like, why don't I look better? So you're really in a great position to do this, because how many years did you spend in that whole seminar course kind of world? And I know you're still involved in some of it, but you helped run Brian: Well, Joe: Some Brian: I Joe: Of these. Brian: Yeah, I help promote Joe: Yep. Brian: To put them on the grand scheme of things, I didn't do that a lot. I was probably with them for maybe about a year before the franchise partnership broke up and therefore the franchise collapsed. But it was a great opportunity and I learned a lot going through that process. Back in starting in 2003, I joined Toastmasters and worked myself up over the number of years to become a semi-professional speaker when I wrote my first book and got kind of started in that. But I never really got traction and got that off the ground in this process. One of the things that happened was I shifted from Toastmasters into a leadership role in nonprofit organizations, specifically to the Boy Scouts. But one of the things I saw was because, again, I was focusing on the teaching aspect because I love watching that light bulb go off. But what I didn't realize was because I didn't see it in my life at the moment, at the time yet was that, again, teaching them was good. But coaching them is better because, again, it's about growth and it's part of my all the exercises and things I've done. I mean, I have done it easily. Quarter of a million dollars on personal development. I have bookcases and bookcases of books and tape series that are, you know, this is the pretty self I have, you know, boxes on wooden shelves and storage units full of books and stuff that I've consumed. And it's actually one of my coaching partners mentioned to me and from one of the coaching programs I was in, he says she said, Brian, you have a vault of ideas and strategies to help somebody to move forward. Brian: And so when they need it, you can provide it for them. And so really, it's about getting people to move. It's not about trying to teach you something new. It's about how can I get you to move forward and understanding how to motivate somebody to move. And he talks about the pleasure and pain principles. We move away from pain a lot easier than we do towards pleasure. But many times we only use pleasure as the incentive for us to do something. And a lot of times I'm working with some basic activities with somebody. One of the things that you can see it here in the video, if you're watching it, is my incredible results, 928 Challenge Journal, which is basically spending about 20 minutes each evening documenting what happened today, well, as planning tomorrow. And the first challenge that people come up with is doing it every day. So far, nobody has done ninety one days straight. There's a few that have come close. But on average, it takes people a good month to get into the habit of consistently writing in their journal. And so, again, it's about understanding what it takes to get people to move in the direction they have said they want to go and using those two buttons and pushing them at the right point to get things to to happen. And again, once we start getting that ball rolling and we start developing momentum, that's when it gets fun. Joe: So we are in the age of so many, like self education, know so many programs and classes and courses and all of this stuff on the Internet, right. You can find it everywhere. So and you might even admit to this yourself, because based on what you just said about having a shelf full of tapes and all of this stuff, what would you say to the there are people out there that are professional seminar attendees right there, their professional course. So, Brian: We call them seminar junkies. Joe: Ok, so Brian: Yeah, Joe: We Brian: I've been there. Joe: Ok, so this is good because you're coming from the understanding that Brian: Oh, yeah. Joe: One more seminar, a one more class or one more course is not going to make the difference. It's that you have to start implementing what you've already learned and actually admit to yourself that you haven't done the work or this is the work you need to do and actually come up with a plan. Right. It's just like we hear it a million times. It's just so hard for people to understand, myself included. I'm not I'm not preaching from a soapbox here that, you know, you have to have a roadmap. Right. Because if you wanted to get hop in your car today and drive somewhere, you need to know where you're going. Right. You would get lost. Brian: Yes. Joe: It's no different Brian: Yes. Joe: With our life. Right. So what would you say to those people that are listening to that do continue to just think that that next breakthrough is around the corner by buying yet another course are going to some sort of seminar or conference? Brian: Put down the Kool-Aid because you have drunk the Kool-Aid, Joe: Right. Brian: What they're actually doing is they're pursuing the feeling, the positive feelings they get when they go to the seminar. They're enjoying that high and over time that wears off and they want to change the way they feel. They get frustrated and they go, oh, I want to feel better. Their subconscious then says, OK, well, how do we make ourselves feel? How we do that? Let's go to another seminar. I talk about this in the master class. That is, we get stuck on this learning loop and we go and we learn some information. We get all excited and we go try it and we fail. And usually when we fail once or twice, we quit. It gets hard. It gets uncomfortable. And we don't like to stay there. We don't like we don't we want to don't want to go through that process of learning how to do it and do it long enough to get good enough at it that we actually get to the other side of. OK, I got this. You know, it's like learning to ride a bike. You're going to fall and the only way to get better is to have somebody let go in and you fall down. You got to go through that process. You've got to learn to you have to make the mistakes. You have to, quote, fail, because, again, it depends on how you define the word failure, because at the end of the day, we get to choose what things mean. My definition of failure is different than most people's. My definition of failure is you only fail when you quit or give up. Joe: Hmm, agreed. Brian: Or you don't even try. Joe: Yeah, so it's almost better that if someone had that itch, they should stop for a moment and say, OK, let's do this, let's just try something completely different that we've never done before. Let's actually hire a coach and spend the same amount of money that we would have spent on a course. But we have a coach with us by our side for however many months or a year or whatever, however long that is. That same amount of money could be spread out to have someone keep you accountable and help you to come up with a plan and stay on track and implement all the ideas. Right. Brian: Absolutely. Joe: It would be worth a try for anybody who's one of these. You could Digicom junkies to seminar junkies. Brian: Yeah, the seminar junkies, Joe: Yeah, Brian: Yes. Joe: Right. So it would be a change? Brian: What's Joe: Of course Brian: The Joe: It would Brian: Right Joe: Be. Brian: If what's your outcome? What do you want? Why are you going to that seminar? And there were several times where people said, well, what are you what do you expect from this? What do you want to learn from this? And people are sitting there throwing out answers. And I would be sitting in the background going, I really don't know. I don't I don't have an answer for that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And that was kind of the clue is like, wait a minute, why am I here? Because I want to learn. That's not good enough. I want you to know I started getting specifics is I want to learn how to do such and such and such, and I want to be able to, you know, be successful at doing that. And, you know, whether that was real estate investing or personal development becoming a coach, a lot of those things was, OK, how do you do it? Because, again, we're learning about doing and we learn through doing much more powerfully. There's a difference between head understanding and gut level understanding. And so, first off, a coach, if you haven't had a coach before. I'll share a good story with you, because this is how I got introduced to coaching was I actually bought the up sell of a seminar program that actually included six monthly coaching sessions with one of the coaches that's kind of designed to help you do it. And my experience was I actually got more done in those six months than I had in the previous five years. I did more stuff. I made more progress. And as I went back and analyzed the even deeper, I did more the week before that phone call that I had the previous three weeks combined because I knew I was going to have to get on the phone with him. And again, we're leveraging fear and that pain to our advantage. That's one of the reasons why I wrote my last book on Leisure Fear. One of the strategies that I teach is how to make your friend and how you make sure your friend, as you turn fear around, it's pulling you forward instead of holding you back. Brian: And one of the ways that we do that, as we make it more painful to stay where you are than where you want to go and having to get on the phone call with me or on the Zoom call with me. And we sit in there and says, OK, Joe, you said last week you were going to accomplish these three things. How how far did you get on number one, how far did you get on number two? How far did you get on number three? Now, I don't beat you up if you don't get them done. What I'm doing is I'm wanting to get under neath it and understand the root cause of what's holding you back, because when I when we're able to do that, you see hole that was fear of criticism. That's what prevented me from making those sales calls. I needed to make up for the fear of rejection or whatever it was. And we talk about that. And then we because again, we get to choose what things mean. And so what does it mean to make a cold call? Most people hate cold calls. What if you could turn things around to where you loved cold calls? Because, again, you get to choose what things mean. You can love cold calls. And so, again, it's basically going in there and playing in the mind and shifting away the what the beliefs are, because that's what it comes down to it. That's what our life is all about, is how we feel and what we believe. And when we understand that we do everything in life to change the way we feel. It's really interesting on where things go from there. Joe: Yeah, and I think either I think I read something from your website, I believe, but something you said, I think that's where it was, but it was something about the moment we actually tell the world what it is that we want to do. We're accountable for it. Right then we everyone that that was in earshot of that or reads it somewhere on our website that we're now responsible to do it. And that's why so many people don't actually put that out there, because then they're like, oh, crap, I actually have to do that now. I said it. Brian: Right, Joe: I told Brian: Yeah. Joe: Everyone I was going to do this. Brian: But you're right, it comes down to we are afraid to put ourselves out there Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Because we're afraid of being criticized now, we do have different types of people in our lives. We have people that I refer to as Krabs, and they're usually in your left hand. For those people who haven't heard the story, I'm sure you have. Is it if you put a crab in a five gallon bucket without a lid on it, it'll crawl out right Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Easily. But if you put two crabs into that five gallon bucket without a lid, they won't crawl out. The more actually, the more crabs that are in there, the less likelihood that the crab is going to get away, because as that crab, they're programming mental instinct programming that we have within us is that to stay part of the group to follow the herd. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And if somebody is trying to climb out, they're going away. And so the rest of the group will pull them back down. And if he continues to do that time and time again, they will actually kill him. Joe: Oh, I didn't know that part of the story. Brian: Yes, well, the same thing is true with other people in our lives. We have people that are on the same level that we are or below us and we're wanting to grow. Now, that doesn't mean that they have negative intentions. They're actually doing it for a positive reason because, one, they don't want you to leave them, but they also don't want to see you get hurt. This is where our family comes in. Parents say, oh, you just sit still, Johnny, because you're not ready for that yet, or they don't want you to go pursue this thing that they perceive as scary, risky, and you're likely to get hurt. And so they're going to try to talk you out of going in, pursuing your great dream. But then there's other people that, again, they're just going to knock you down, they're going to pull you down. And if you've ever listened to Lester Brown, he talks about that and his family, he'd show up for Thanksgiving. And his brother goes, Hey, Les, how's that seminar speaking gig going? And it was almost I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. But we also have people that want to support us and help us. And so it's who are you going to listen to and who are you going to spend time with? And so but it's also important to be in that group of people. Brian: Your support people are in your right hand, your crabs are in your left hand. It's important to know who the person you're across the table with and who you're talking with on the phone. Is this person a crab or is this a supporter and then interact with them appropriately? Because if you're talking with a crab, you stay in the shallow end. You don't talk about your dreams. You talk about the weather, you talk about sports, you talk about whatever that is dull and boring at the time and not really enlightening to us, but allows us to maintain the relationship because there's times in our life when, yes, we can eliminate some of those crabs because other times they're related to us and we can't get rid of them. And so what do you do? So in part of it is, one, you reduce the amount of time, and then two, you understand who you're having the conversation with and understand they're coming to you with a positive intent. They're trying to keep you safe. They're trying to they want you to be happy and they want you to stay well and they don't want you to get hurt. But the same thing is true with our subconscious, which is why our biggest enemy is right up here Joe: Yep. Brian: Is the robot that runs the show 80 to 90 percent of the time. And that's where I spend a lot of time, is helping people reprogram the robot, their subconscious, because unfortunately, it was a program with a lot of crappy code and trying to reprogram it is not as easy as copy, delete and then copy and paste. It's not that easy. It's like the biggest, ugliest ball of spaghetti you've ever seen and trying to figure out where that thing goes. And it's a mess. It's just a mess in there. And but we do have the ability to go in there and change it. And the more we actively pursue that and focus on that and pursue growth, the faster we can get to where we want to go. Joe: So we're going to talk about the services you offer, but you touched upon something that in a previous episode that I had put out, I got a lot of comments about it. And so I want to talk about it as it relates to you personally. And then we can talk about how you use it with your clients. But you spoke about journaling. And the more and more I hear, either I have guest on or I hear people talk about it, the more and more I feel like it's almost got the same benefits as when people talk about meditating, how you can quiet the mind. It was all this fufu stuff many years ago and now it's becoming more the norm. Right? It's something that you need that quiet time. So tell me more about what you think journaling does for people and the importance of journaling Brian: Ok, well, Joe: And Brian: Actually. Joe: Whether or not you actually do it nightly or daily or I'd be Brian: Yes, Joe: Interested to know. Brian: Yes, the the if you can see it there, it says, a life worth living as a life worth recording. And so, Tony, he's inspired me to consistently journal. I have journals from my first in fact, in my latest move, I was going through a lot of them. And I came across the journal that I had right after college. And I was actually really interested to go back and see the progress of my first sales job that I bombed out. I lasted like three months. My experience was the story I was telling myself was different than the story that I was reading. And so, one, it's a great way to document your journey in life. But the way that I teach people to journal No. One is it leverages the power of evaluated experience because you stop and think about it. You probably have heard that experience is the best teacher. Yes and no, because unless we learn the lessons from that experience, then it was pointless. If we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, we keep doing the same thing and expect different results. We're not learning. We're not growing. And so journaling is a great way for you to document your journey, but also to stop and evaluate what happened today. What did I get done? Because many times we get to the end of the week, we get to the end of the month. Man, I feel like I didn't get anything done. And you can go back to the daily journal process and go, oh, yeah, well, I did that and I did that and I did that and I did that. Brian: But it also allows you to say, OK, what am I actually getting done? And is what I'm getting done, moving me in the direction I want to go? Because, again, we've talked about the journey that we're on. We have a goal we want to achieve. And in order to get there, we like you said, we have to have a plan. Many people don't put together the plan. In fact, many go study programs. And I listen to rarely was there any planning process involved. And so I actually stepped somebody through this. Exactly. And the incredible results on what they challenge is Ugo's. We set our big yearly goal and we break that down into what are we going to accomplish in the next ninety one days and then we break that down. This is OK. What's going to be month one? What's going to be month two? What's going to be month three? And then we break that down. OK, what's going to be week one of month one. What's going to be in week two. Week three, week four. Because again, the only way to get to complete the ninety one day journey is to each day make forward progress. And how do you make sure you're making forward progress if you never look at the map and compare your results, what you're getting to see if you're moving in the right direction. Brian: It's like a airplane taking off from New York to L.A. without a GPS system, without a method for them to course. Correct. You know, there's a reason why there's a compass in the airplane. There's a reason why there's a GPS in there that's consistently every moment checking in and saying, am I on track? Am I on track and making those little minor adjustments along the way? Because if you actually look at a slight wiggle from L.A. to New York, because there's turbulence up there, there's wind currents up there, lots of different things depending on which way you're flying. Are you flying with the jet stream or against the jet stream? All of these things are impacting that flight. The same thing is true in our life. How do we make sure we are on target? And journalese is one of the ways to do that. But we also encourage people. The way that the journal is set up is to do that evaluation experience where you document what you got done, you documents your lessons along the way, and you also document the changes that you want to make, the adjustments that are going to make tomorrow a better day. How can I be better tomorrow? And then you plan tomorrow. One of the biggest challenges we have is making sure we get the right stuff done. How do you make sure you make time to get those important but not urgent activities into your schedule? Because if you do not intentionally plan them and schedule them into your calendar, rarely, very rarely are they going to actually happen, which means you're never going to really make the progress you want to make, because stop and think about it, your goals require a lot of time and energy doing those things that are important but not urgent, which is another reason why having the accountability is a big factor in that. Brian: It's like, OK, it's it's not urgent, but oh, my coach is going to be asking about it. What do we just do? We created the needed urgency. Give you a perfect example. I had one of my clients. She wanted to raise her rates and so she'd been talking about it for months. And so we were working on the programming in her head so that she felt like she was worthy of that price increase, putting it off and putting it off. And this is OK, put and says, OK, what's the plan? And so we specifically detailed walk through the plan. OK, I need to put a sign up on the door and I need to send out a notification of my. People and I got an email and, you know, here's an opportunity for people to come in and sign up for a plan where they can lock in the current pricing. And I says, OK, when I come see you next week, I want to see the sign on the door. When you think you put the sign on the door right after that call, Joe: Ten minutes Brian: 15 Joe: Before Brian: Minutes Joe: You showed Brian: Before Joe: Up. Brian: I 15 minutes before I walked in the door. Exactly. And it wouldn't have happened if I had not pushed her to make that commitment. As a mom, what are we going to do? Are we just going to keep going down this road? Because that's one of things that we do, is we look at it, says, OK, what happens if you don't change? If you keep doing the same thing you're doing today over and over again, you're going to get the same results. Are you happy with that? Are you satisfied with it? If you're not, then what are you going to do differently tomorrow? That's going to change. The trajectory that you're going internally is a big piece of that is to help make sure that you are documenting your journey and you're evaluating the experiences that you're getting and making sure that they're taking you in the direction you want to go and if it's not making those adjustments along the way. Joe: Is the majority of the time it happens is at night, just before you go to bed sort of thing. Brian: One of the things that we designed the system to be very flexible. There's actually a place for people to write in their schedule and there's no numbers on it because I've got clients. It's wake up at five o'clock in the morning and then there's guys like me who don't start their day until seven, but I'm usually up till midnight. So, again, it just comes down to fitting it into your system. And that's actually one of the things we do within the group coaching calls is we're saying, how do I take this system that Brian has created and apply it to my life? How does this fit into my life? And we teach people how to do that. And I've got one client who does restoration work. So he's very much like a firefighter. The phone rings and it's like the alarm bell going off. He's got to go fix somebody's problem. So how does he schedule his day? And so we came up with a system on how to use the system because what happens if the alarm doesn't go off? What are you going to do? So we had a plan, a system and a Plan B system Joe: Mm Brian: For Joe: Hmm. Brian: It. We recommend the Evening Times for a couple of reasons. Number one, when you're planning tomorrow, you don't have to remember it. Actually, you get a better night's sleep. Joe: I get it off your brain. Brian: Right, and so your brain, is it trying to remember all the things you've got to do tomorrow? We also encourage now I have some people completed at their end of their workday. So at four thirty, when they go home at 5:00, I've got one woman who does it at three thirty before she go pick up her kid at school at 4:00 and she's basically document what did I get done? And she's also there's still some things potentially that she's going to do because we incorporate not just your business, but your life in the journal. And so it's like, OK, what am I going to be doing for all 16 hours? And I'm awake and relax and let go because so many times we struggle with constantly running. And there's a reason why there's a pad of paper and a pen on my bedside is because there's a lot of times I wake up in this ideas and I got to sit there and I get to write it down because I will not remember when I wake up in the morning. And so it just comes down. We try to get the system to fit the person, not the person to fit the system Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Like so many of them do. But at the end of the day, it comes down to what works for you. We recommend in the evening because of the benefits there. There are some people that do it first thing in the morning. If that's the case, as long as you're doing the system, great. Joe: I just hear about it all the time, and I said I was going to start it after the last episode, that someone who was heavily into it, I even publicly said, all right, I got to start doing it and I still haven't done it. Brian: Well, let's have a conversation about that, Joe, because, again, at the end of the day, it's what is it going to take to get you to move? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And that's actually something that because, again, I've got numerous stories that I can tell you about people that because one of the one of the most common mistakes that people make when they're doing the journal is the fact that they only do it Monday through Friday. They don't do it Saturday, Sunday, because, again, like the woman who does it at the end of the workday, my question to them is, OK, that's good. But what are you going to do, come on Saturday, Sunday when you're not going to the office? What are you going to do then? And so we create a plan on how and then we got to you got to figure out how to make it work. And so I actually challenged several of the people to do it, says, OK, if you don't in. The other thing is, is not getting the journal done. The night before it was OK. If you don't do the journal the night before, you have to spend two minutes on a cold shower in the morning. I don't know about you, but yes, they talk about cold showers being this great, wonderful thing. But I don't want that in the morning. No, thank you. And so, again, we move away from paying much better than the the perceived pleasure. OK, and so it's creating the pain. So it was like, OK, you don't do the journal, not before you're going to take a cold shower or I mean, really what I would do is I give them a choice. I says you can either a take the cold shower or B, you have to text me that says I didn't do my journal last night. Which one do you think people chose? And I said, OK, those are your two choices. You have to choose the greater pain. Which one do you think they chose as the greater pain? Joe: I would think having the texture would be more of the pain. Brian: Yes, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Because that is admitting Joe: Yeah, Brian: That they failed, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Which just goes to show you the level of programming we have around failure. And so, again, it's using fear and pain to move you in the direction you want to go. Joe: All right, a lot to unpack there. So we only have a little bit of time left and I want to honor your time. So let's do this first. Let's talk about I have for services written down that you offer. And you might have added one. You might have taken one away. But I have your one on one coaching. I have the ninety one day challenge. I have the mastermind and then I have your weekly accountability coaching. And so can you just briefly give us an explanation of those. And if I missed one at it and if you're not doing one of them, take it away. Brian: Ok, well, as a coach, I need I don't know where you are, so I don't know which service to offer you or which one is the right fit for you, Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: You or your listener. And so I really start with what I refer to as a discovery session where we sit down and talk about where you are and where you want to go. And then based upon that conversation, we determine how to best help you. Now, where do people usually start? But most people start with the incredible results, starting with their challenge, because it is the one skill that helps people take the action they know they need to be taking that will help them reach their goals. And they see tremendous immediate results, positive results and benefits from participating in the program. And it's one that it's only one hundred and ninety seven dollars if somebody wanted to participate in it. But you got to come through me and do that discovery session in order to determine whether or not that's the good right fit for you. The other thing that is like rocket boosters on the on any one day challenge is the weekly accountability coaching calls and the incredible results. And what a challenge. We do a group coaching call where we are sitting down and we are we're talking how to help use the system, how to get the system to work and fit into your life, and how to help you consistently take action on it. But we also help you with your plan on accomplishing your ninety one day goal. So if your goal is to get 50 new clients, this is OK. What are you doing this week that's going to make you more clients? And we're talking about those different activities in those different ideas and strategies. Brian: So the problem is, is there's anywhere from five to 15 people on that call, depending on how many people are actually in the group at one time. And so it comes down to how do you get enough of my time to where we can truly focus on that programming piece that we've talked about, which is such a big, ugly mess that gets in the way all the time. That is where that one on one time comes in to, where we actually spend 30 minutes specifically talking. We it's a very specifically designed program, says, OK, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what I got done. Here's what I learned. And here's the changes I'm going to make so we can review that in eight to ten minutes pretty quickly. And then we spend the next twenty minutes digging into what got in the way. What's the challenge and struggle you're dealing with right now? That's either the bitch that you're in, the roadblock you're facing, or what's holding you back from moving forward. And that right there is tremendously powerful and makes the ninety one day challenge much more successful. And people who are participating in both their results that they get in and I know they challenge is heads and shoulders above the people that are just in the program by itself. Joe: Yep, and I have to ask this, because I'm sure if I was listening to this, it would be driving me nuts the entire time. It's like, why ninety one days? It's not 60, 30, 90, 120. Brian: It's seven times 13 is 91, seven days for 13 weeks. Joe: Steamworks got it. Brian: So because, again, one quarter is three months, which is four point three weeks, and so it's to get a full 13 weeks is ninety one days. Joe: Perfect. So we covered that and the Brian: Ok, Joe: Weekly accountability and then Brian: Right. Joe: The one on one coaching is. Brian: The one on one coaching I refer to I refer to as my general coaching, and that's where somebody is really wanting to grow and make changes. And a lot of times people will start off there. And again, they're wanting to do a lot of growth and unpacking and deal with the programming issues that are going on. And they're wanting to make some significant changes. Those are one hour sessions and those are usually each week as well where we're digging in and we're trying to figure out again, we're making some serious shifts in there. And then a lot of times it's like, OK, we got them straightened out and we got them on a path. We've created the plan. We've got the momentum going now and it's starting to move forward. And a lot of those people will roll into the accountability coaching so that they have the regular check ins that are getting done what they want to get done, but they don't need to necessarily. OK, let's dive in deep in there and start digging around. Those are wonderful sections. I love doing them, but they take a lot of energy on both myself as well as the person because we're going deep. Know, one of the things that you probably have learned by now listen to this is I don't like to play in the shallow end. I like to dive deep and I like to go under the covers. And if people aren't, that's the other thing is if you've got to be comfortable in playing in the deep end and there's a lot of times when my role as a coach is not to tell somebody what to do, I almost never do that because who's an expert on Joe and Joe's business, Joe is right. So my role is to ask you the questions that is going to help you come up with the answers and solutions to the problems that you're faced with that external perspective and to help you come up with the solution that is within yourself and that the mastermind is more Joe: That's Brian: At the upper Joe: Ok. Brian: Level Joe: Ok. Brian: And that right now is closed. So people are not available into that. And usually what happens is we start people off in the 90s when they challenge and there's those people are rolling up into that mastermind as they complete the 91 day challenge. Joe: Scott. Brian: But we start people off with where they are and what they can afford of what they need to do. And so we have programs that start, like I said, at one hundred dollars a month, up to twenty five to five thousand dollars a month, depending upon which program you're involved with. And there are other things that I do. I have mentioned Tony Robbins, but I have not mentioned John Maxwell, most certified coach, trainer and speaker of the John Maxwell team, which means for those people who are not familiar with John Maxwell, he's a world renowned leadership expert. And that was one of the big challenges that I saw was there was a lack of quality leadership in our world today. And because my target market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional, they have never really had much experience with leadership training. But again, I'm not a leadership trainer. I'm a leadership developer. And so we have leadership programs using John's world class material that over a period of 90 days, we teach you the strategies and you practice them for ninety one days so that you develop those skill sets along the way. And so, again, it depends upon where you are and what you need and what tool is necessary to help you fix the problem that you're up against. Because again, I use Stephen Covey, I use Joe Mitali. I will pick from anybody I need to and I will claim that everything that I share didn't originate with me. Brian: I'm standing on the shoulders of the giants that went before me as far as you know, all the way back to the Greeks, Aristotle and and some of those, because they had it first. They they mentioned it. And again, everybody since then is really just repackaging it from there. And if somebody wants to do a DIY version of it, pick a great book. Napoleon Hill's was probably the the godfather of personal development or at least modern person development with they can grow rich. And one of my mentors actually went and read the book and studied it over and over and over again. You probably have heard the suggestion that you should go read a book a week or so, go read 50 bucks a year. Right. I challenge you. That's not the right strategy if you're wanting to grow. It's a great way to learn information. But if you're wanting to make changes in your life. Yeah, one great book and read it 50 times, study it, do the exercises at the end of the chapter, implement the strategies. Another great one is Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. That that book still to date. That's one book I try to read at least once a year. And I'm usually listening to it because I'm taking advantage of the windshield time that I have. And it seems like there's always something more in there. Brian: That book is so deep and there's so many different levels that you can get into it as you grow. There's another level. There's another level. There's another level, which is how I spend a lot of my time. Yes, I have three different coaches and I'm constantly consuming more and more material. But there are there's about ten different books that I try to spend time reading consistently because they're the road maps, they're the foundational skills. And it's going to take for me to get to where I want to go. And it's only through consistently coming back to it. You don't become a master blackbelt by learning how to do the form and doing it perfectly. One time I believe it was Berklee that said, I don't fear the man that knows ten thousand ticks. I fear the man that is practiced one kick ten thousand times in the story that got you the story and the rest of the story was the example of that was he says will show me. And and basically what it was is because that person had practice that kicks so well. It doesn't matter if even if you know it's coming, you can't block it, you can't stop it. He has mastered how to do it regardless of what you do to counteract that. The only way to not get kicked is to not get into the fight. Joe: So. We're over a little bit, we have a few more minutes. Brian: Oh, yeah, I'm good. Joe: Ok, cool. So I want to ask you about because you mentioned since we're on the subject of books and you mentioned Joe Vitale and you were you are part of a book called The Abundance Factor. Brian: Yep. Joe: Can you tell me a little bit about that and how that came about and. Brian: Well, I was on the short list as Joe was looking to write his next compilation book, and I had been following him, been a fan of him, read a number of his books. I still practice one of one of the big things that sticks for me from Joe is the story of Hopital Pono. If you have not read the book Zero Factor, I highly recommend it. It's a very fascinating book. The mantra that that book teaches is something that actually helps me go to sleep at night because my brain has a hard time shutting down. And by saying that for phrase mantra helps my it's kind of a signal to my brain to stop thinking and go from into my head and into my body. And so it's really helpful there. And so I was on the short list of authors that Joe asked to help participate in that book. It's called The Abundance Factor. I knew the group of people that were pulling together. And so my chapter is called The Unpleasant Truth, because, again, there's a lot of people out there teaching because we're talking about the mindset of abundance, which is something that a lot of people struggle with. But it's hard for people to actually do it and practice it consistently. And that's really what my chapter was about. It was about taking the actions that the book is encouraging you to take. And so that's what my chapter is in that book. April of the year that it came out, we did hit the Amazon bestseller list with that book at the time. And it's been a great book. And I use it more of a as a calling card and as an introduction to myself when I'm meeting new people. Joe: And then you mentioned earlier about a book that you wrote that I did not actually see in my notes. So can you tell me about that? Right. Was Brian: Ok, Joe: There. Brian: I've written three books. Joe: Ok. Brian: The first book is called Ready, Set Succeed, which is a self published book. Again, it was another compilation with a series of different authors. And I've got several boxes of those still today that, again, I use them as is handouts. And it's, again, about taking action because again, that's what I saw people struggle with and implementation because again, at the end of the day, it's ready, set, succeed, go. You've got to get moving. And so we were all writing the chapter based upon that. It was a self published book. The only way that you can get that is to go through me to get that I'm aware of. And I actually did have a client come to me through that book for one of the other offers. They got it. They called me up and that chapter resonated with them. And it was an opportunity for me to help them out. Then we wrote The Abundance Factor, and then after that we wrote a book called Unleash Your Fear. And that book is available right now. You can go to unleash your fear dot com and get a copy of that. Right now, at this point in time, it is about a 40 page e-book. You can get a copy were actually read it to you for in about an hour. Brian: But that's one of our projects for the rest of this year, is to work on rewriting that book and expanding it to where it's around a hundred pages and we turn it into a physical book and using that as a methodology to share that message. Because as we've gone back and we've we've shared that message, we teach in a very powerful concept in that book about the relationship that people have with fear, because right now most people have a lousy relationship with fear. But fear is just a tool that's used by our subconscious. And our subconscious causes us problems because it's designed not to make us happy. It's not designed to make us successful. It's designed to make us survive. Problem is, when we do go out there, when we want to grow, when we want to succeed and we want more, it sees that as not surviving. That's risky. There's pain out there if we pursue those things. So how do we how do we change that? How do we work on that? That's what I've understood from the people that have read the book, that a lot of people enjoyed it and you can actually still get it for free for a little bit longer. Brian: We're in the process of getting that changed. You can go to unleash your fear Dotcom and get a copy of that book there. And once we get the expanded version, we will still be using that. You are all along the way. And so in this process, we've got a lot of great tools that are available to you. And we've talked about a lot. Joe, you're actually one of the longer podcasts that I've gone on and we've talked about a lot of different things. But one thing we haven't talked about is one of the foundations that I used for my coaching, which I refer to as the Five Keys of Success. And that's actually a podcast that I do called the Five Keys of Success podcast. And you can go out there to wherever you get your podcasts and Google five Keys successor Brian Lovegrove, and you'll be able to find it. And I talk about those five keys, because at the end of the day, because, again, I've been doing personal development for decades now. And so I boiled down all of that stuff to what is the true fundamental foundational skills and tools you need. And I came up with those five keys. You want to know what those five keys Joe: I Brian: Are? Joe: Do, I have actually you were not going to get off this podcast without talking about it, so I have them here. I still have other stuff. That's why I like that. Yes. So please, I totally want to these this is like one of the things that really triggered it. When I wanted to have you on as a guest, I'm like, man, I want to know what those are. Brian: Well, the five keys of success, the first key is clarity, and I refer to it as get clear because without clarity, you're lost, you're wandering around in a fog. If you don't have a destination, you're never going to be able to get there. And if you don't know where you are, how do you know how you're going to go from where you are to where you want to go? And we talked about the plan. If you are not clear on the plan on how to achieve your goal, you're not going to get there now. But there's some also challenges with that piece because, again, a lot of people may not necessarily know how to get to that point, but do you know how to get started? Because that's the key. Do you know what the next step is? How many people get bogged down with steps? Nine hundred and eighty seven through steps. Twelve hundred and eighty four. Well, what steps do you want? I'm on step five. What step six. I don't know. Focus on step six, seven, eight, nine. OK, focus on what's in front of you and these other steps you will figure out by the time you get to that point. The second key is commitment because without commitment we cave in to the fear. We don't have the motivation, the energy and the power to keep going when things get. And the analogy that I love to use is the story about Cortez. When he landed in The New World, he burned his boats. His men woke up the next morning and they went in. He addresses many gentlemen. There is no way home that we do not create for ourselves. And so his small band took on and conquered much larger nations and groups of people in South America because they were committed to making it happen because it was either do or die. Joe: I'm a big fan of burning the boats, by the way. Brian: Absolutely, that's one of the podcasts that we did, is, OK, how do you burn the boats? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And we kind of walk through that exercise and that's that can be a whole coaching process. My story around that was I used to weigh two hundred and sixty pounds and I went on a diet and I lost thirty five pounds in the first month and a half. It was a radical diet. And one of the things that I did on the back deck in the fire pit is I burn my fat jeans and I actually have a picture of you. It's it's at night. You can all you can really see the flames. You can barely make out the jeans as part of the picture. But I vividly remember that process. And I promised myself I would never buy that size pair of clothes ever again. Now, have I been able to keep off all the weight that I lost? No. But when my pants get tight, that option is not there. Joe: Yeah. Brian: It's like, OK, we got to do something, we got to turn this around because we are not buying a bigger sized pair of pants. And so, again, that's where that burning the boats actually comes in, which leads us to step three, which is get crankin or get busy taking action. Money talks about taking massive action. And, you know, how many times have I you know, I've tried everything. Really? How many times have you tried? What have you tried? A hundred things.

Dr. Shawn Dill and Dr. Lacey Book talked with me about so many things happening in their lives. Amongst the many of subjects we discussed, we talked about their book "None of Your Business: A Winning Approach to Turn Service Providers into Entrepreneurs", their organization the Black Diamond Club and their franchise business, The Specific Chiropractic Centers. It was great to talk with such a power couple as I like to call them and learn how they navigate through both their business and professional lives. The Black Diamond club is about helping service providers learn all the necessary tools to be successful while offering a community of support and like minded individuals. Their book gives you the tool in hand, to do the same. The Specific is their chiropractic franchise organization that helps chiropractic offices use a proven formula for growth is their specific realm of expertise being knee, chest, upper cervical specific clinics. I had a great with with Shawn and Lacey and I hope you get as much out of this episode as I did. Thanks for listening, Joe Dr. Shawn Dill & Dr. Lacey Book Owners - The Specific Chiropractic Centers Website: https://thespecific.com/ Founders - Black Diamond Club Website: https://blackdiamondclub.com/ Their mutual website: https://shawnandlacey.com/ Lacey's Info: Website: https://laceybook.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drlaceybook/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drlaceybook/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laceybook/ Shawn's Info: Website: https://shawndill.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drshawndill/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thespecific/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dr-shawn-dill/ Emails: shawn@blackdiamondclub.com lacey@blackdiamondclub.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Sean, Lacey, thanks for joining me on the podcast. I'm super excited after I went and looked at everything that you guys are doing. It's like I probably need a week with you on air. I'm exhausted, actually, from my research, but I'm excited about this. So welcome to the show. I appreciate it. Shawn & Lacey: Thank you so much. Boy, that's that's a I never heard that before, I don't think we hear stuff similar to that. I would say, though, it takes a little while, it takes a little while for us to explain what we do. Sometimes Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: I get that. Joe: There's a lot going on, so I'm going to jump right in, I might have a different approach than some podcasters. For me, it's really about the origin of where you came from, because I think that's missed a lot of times. And I like people that are listening to the podcast as either entrepreneurs that are in the throes of it and trying to figure stuff out or they're they're on their way up or people that are on the sidelines going mad. Do I really want to do this? I hear how hard it is to be an entrepreneur and and I'm one myself, so I know what it's like. And I would love to at least get your history first. And if you want, you can obviously you probably need to both do it separately because you you didn't all of a sudden disappear together as this good looking power couple that you are. And so I'd like to hear a little bit about each of your story and then the connection and then we'll go from there. And I promise I won't miss anything. I have a ton of notes so either of you can go first, whoever wants to. Shawn & Lacey: Well, Sean is a couple of years on me, so I'll let him go first chronological order, chronological order. Well, I'll accelerate through the early stages of my entrepreneurial development. Joe: Not too Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: Much, Shawn & Lacey: Graduated. Joe: Though, not too much, because it's I like to know who you were when you grew up, like it's Shawn & Lacey: Ok. Joe: Important because I think, you know, people just think all of a sudden, hey, Sean, at least he had a lucky. They they had rich parents and they grew up in an affluent neighborhood. And Sean's trajectory was to be a chiropractor the moment he was born. And and I think it's important for people to know that it's not that easy. And not everyone most of us don't come from that sort of direction Shawn & Lacey: Mm Joe: Early Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: On. Shawn & Lacey: Ok, well, my both of my parents worked nine to five job superimportant, and I would say we were sort of just middle class, maybe just above middle class. Not definitely not upper middle class. I distinctly remember for my age, wanting designer jeans, Jordache jeans, and I was allowed a pair of Jordache jeans. But my friends, they wore Jordache jeans every day. And so unless I wore the same jeans every day, I wasn't wearing designer jeans every day, hated to wear the lead jeans. I worked one of the things that super important as I worked during high school, shining shoes at a country club in Fort Wayne, Indiana. That was sort of my first real job making money. Of course, I mowed yards, but nothing like nothing super sexy from the entrepreneurial space. I was I had a job. But what I what I noticed was that the members at the country club, they were able to play golf on Wednesdays and Fridays and Saturdays and Sundays. And there I was shining their shoes every day and something sort of sparked in me that made me wonder how they had that lifestyle. I know that you've had conversations with Steve Sims, a similar thing. I think that people people have that sort of that moment when they question what makes you so different than me. Shawn & Lacey: So that was sort of my moment. I fell in love with this idea. I was like, I think that if you truly have made it in my life, you're 16 years old. I thought, like, well, then you could have a country club membership and you can play golf on Wednesdays and Fridays. That became something that was super important to me at a very early age. Now, I didn't play golf at that time. I was shining shoes, but then I went on. My cousin was a chiropractor. This was during the 80s. And the chiropractic space, the 1980s are known as the Mercedes 80s because insurance reimbursement was high. My cousin drove three BMW, so I think he had two BMW cars and he had a BMW motorcycle and his license plate was three BMW s three BMW. And I thought, well, that's really cool. You must really do well. If you if you're a chiropractor and a chiropractic experience, then my cousin really encouraged me to go to chiropractic college, go to chiropractic college. I'm very passionate about chiropractic. But what I realize is that just like culinary art school, when you go to culinary art school, you're being taught how to be a great chef and every great chef's dream is to own their own restaurant. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Well, the same thing in professional trade schools. If you go to become a dentist, a chiropractor, medical doctor, lawyer, they teach you how to be a great practitioner. And of course, every practitioner's dream is to own their own place. But I didn't really have the business education that would be necessary to be successful. I graduated chiropractic college at the age of twenty four. I knew everything there was to know in the world at twenty four. I mean you just Joe: Yes, Shawn & Lacey: That said, Joe: Absolutely. Shawn & Lacey: You know everything. So I moved from the United States to Costa Rica. I didn't speak any Spanish where Costa Rica. The primary language is Spanish. But you know, you figure that out later. And my first year in business was absolutely terrible. It was just it was terrible. I ended that year wondering if I made the right decision, one to be a chiropractor, to to be in business. And I had to make a decision to either, like, bite down hard and press forward or to throw in the towel. I could probably go back to the United States and get a job working for someone else. Thankfully for it, for my sake, I decided to press forward one more time. I caught a break. I was invited to be on a television show. My Spanish was still pretty terrible, so the show was pretty terrible. Imagine you're interviewing me and my English was so broken that you were trying to piece it together right like that. That's what we did. But then slowly I began to get my bearings with the language. I got better and my business blew up. We ended up having four chiropractic offices in Costa Rica. That was sort of my first taste of that magic called scale. I was like, wow, so we could do that, end up coming back to the United States. Shawn & Lacey: I have two daughters and wanted to get them into school here and then here I really that's when I got to the states. That was kind of why would accelerate that. But it is important to know where someone came from. That's really when that sort of entrepreneurial bug started to really develop. I opened up one office and had that bug to scale. We eventually created a chiropractic franchise called the Specific Chiropractic Center. We began consulting with chiropractors and then consulting outside of the chiropractic space. We've worked with some great many. Tours like Jay Abraham and David Meltzer, who began to encourage us to look at other verticals, so we started to get into the software space, we are in the digital marketing space. We do events, but they're all interrelates. It's not like a hodgepodge of things. They they're all sort of interconnected and that sort of then that acceleration on the on the backside, you know, we've just been super blessed. I think a lot of people that really have their game together did well during the pandemic. And so we were blessed through this through this year. And then, of course, you know, looking ahead, trying to prepare the business for what's to come. Joe: So all that was amazing, and I appreciate you doing that for me, and I think the audience will really appreciate it. The only question in the whole thing that I had, and I always hate interrupting, so I just kept quiet, was why Costa Rica? It seems like such a random thing to say. And even though I want to go there and I want to possibly live there, I get it now. But at twenty four y. Shawn & Lacey: I just told the story last night, and I remember we also have a podcast and I appreciate when podcast and they say I'm actually going to tell you the answer to that. The real answer, when I was in St. Louis at Chiropractic College, my roommate, he was dating a girl and eventually became a fiance. And her grandmother was the president of Nicaragua. And my roommate was like, we should go down and visit Nicaragua. I was like, yeah, let's do that. So we stayed. We ended up staying at her grandfather on the other side of the family at the grandfather's house. And we were invited to have a couple of meetings. We were exploring. I wanted to go to Nicaragua and we sat down with a guy and very nice. And he explained he talked to me and he said, Sean, you don't want to come to Nicaragua. Not safe, not good, not stable. If you like Nicaragua, for some reason, you should go to Costa Rica. And I was like, OK, well, that guy, his name was Popl tomorrow. And there's a book written. It's called Everybody Has His Own Gringo. Pulpo was Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Oliver North's contact in this whole Iran Contra affair. I was sitting in his guy's office and he told me so Jamal told me, you don't want to come to Nicaragua, go to Costa Rica. I did. A couple of months later, I went to Costa Rica. Costa Rica was just absolutely beautiful. I was honestly, too, trying to escape something that's interesting from the health care space. I was trying to escape the advent of managed care. This was nineteen ninety five. Managed care was coming on the scene. People didn't really know what that was going to mean for the providers. And so I was like, look, I mean, again, I know everything. The best thing for me is to go to Costa Rica. First it was Nicaragua and then I was convinced by some very powerful people that I should go to Costa Rica instead. Joe: That's amazing. All right, well, and did you end up buying any property there because by now everyone wants to be there and everyone wants to own property. Shawn & Lacey: I did, but I sold that property when we moved back to the United States. That was the other thing is that I worked very hard. You know, we may dive into that at some point here in our discussion as an entrepreneur. So people always ask me, like, wow, you're in Costa Rica like, what's your favorite beach? And honestly, the answer is, I don't know. I was working like a given. We have a home in Florida, but if you're working, you're not at the beach. So just because you live in Florida doesn't mean you're like out renting jet skis or doing all of these things every day. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, well, great, well, that's awesome. Well, I appreciate you doing that, Lacey, it's your turn now. I want to hear about you. Shawn & Lacey: Wonderful, and I'll fill in some of the gaps that Joe: Perfect, Shawn & Lacey: John glossed Joe: Perfect. Shawn & Lacey: Over when the two of us came together, so for me, I grew up a little bit differently. I actually grew up in Silicon Valley in Northern California. And you think Silicon Valley and you think just that the tech capital of the United States and it really was like that. I remember when I grew up, I literally grew up around the corner from Netflix when it was in one little tiny office and I could walk there from my home. But that didn't mean that I grew up with a lot of money. And so majority of my life, we actually lived off of a single family income. My mother worked. My dad, my father was a lot older and so he retired pretty early on in my childhood. And so my mom was really solely responsible for the money in our household, which especially in California, didn't go very far. Joe: The. Shawn & Lacey: And so for me, I actually started working since the day I turned 14. We got some permission from the school and I worked at a really horrible but really fun second run movie theater, probably doing things that no kids should have done. But it taught me a lot, taught me a lot about customer service and really being able to take care of people. And honestly, I can say to this point, I've never stopped working since that day. I've always been a go getter, I think for me, because we didn't have a lot. I always just had this desire for more. And on top of that, I a lot of people out there may relate to this because I wanted more. I had a rebellious side of me. I always wanted to to to break the limits, break the mold. And so I thrived in almost every job I had when I went to undergrad. Since I paid for it myself, I worked three jobs and went to school to get it done. And so I always had that spirit in me, but I never had the knowledge or the intellect or know how. Shawn & Lacey: I don't know how to put it all together. And I ended up going to chiropractic school. And along that road is when I met Sean and just I was just as passionate about chiropractic as he was and ended up we ended up working together in that office that he started in California. And then from there, that's where the two of us started our relationship and started working together as well. And I remember at that time, I we want to talk about beginnings. We tell this story a lot because that was in two thousand and eleven and we were in a six hundred and twenty five square foot apartment. I had a ton of debt coming out of school. Like carpenters come out of school with around two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in debt. He had just come to the United States quite a few years before that, but was still, I mean, really starting from scratch. So we had the six hundred twenty five square foot apartment and we had the two girls that are two kids there as well. I Joe: Scott. Shawn & Lacey: Mean, it was teeny tiny. And we always tell the story of our green couch because at that time we had no money. We had to get a hand-me-down couch from another student that was at the school that moved away. And that's what our girls slept on. And so oftentimes I know and I love that you said that because people automatically think, well, maybe they maybe they had opportunity. I didn't maybe they were blessed. Maybe they grew up that way. Honestly, not only did not grow up that way, but in 2011, it was actually worse. Right. We didn't know what we were going to do with the our actually I didn't know I should say I was the one in the relationship that really struggled with a lack of mentality. Sean has always thought very abundantly. And so we really had to work that out in our relationship to make it work. But the other thing about us is not only were we passionate about chiropractic, we're passionate about helping other people. And so that's what allowed us to go on that trajectory of having our chiropractic franchise and then becoming consultants for people that are service based entrepreneurs and really growing to where we are at today. And that's how we end up sitting here before you. And so it was it was a lot of work, a lot of struggle, a lot of wrong decisions, but mostly just a desire and a tenacity to continue to reach more people and make an impact. Joe: Yeah, and it's so I understand why Sean got into it, because he saw his cousin with the three BMW, right. It made sense. What triggered you to take that path? Shawn & Lacey: You know, it's really interesting, I was actually thinking about when he was telling that story. It's funny because I've heard that story many times. But where I grew up, because because it was Silicon Valley, I was surrounded by money, surrounded by it. There was a lot of entrepreneurs. There are a lot of people in the tech world. The high school that I went to, I, I drove the Cruddas car in the whole parking lot like it was so bad that it was like of those felt ceilings. You remember Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: When they had that and the glue had melted Joe: Yes, Shawn & Lacey: Off. So the Joe: The liner Shawn & Lacey: Felt Joe: The Shawn & Lacey: With Joe: Liner starts Shawn & Lacey: The liner, yeah, it would be bumping my head Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: And I would have to tack it up. And I think for me, I would I would boil it down to one word and it was contrast. I was able to see what those what that life could look like Joe: Mm hmm. Shawn & Lacey: In stark contrast to where I was. And so I always wanted to have the opportunity in my own life like I saw like that my that my friends had. And it wasn't that I grew up in a bad household. My parents were amazing and phenomenal. But it's just when you grow up around that, you go, how do I get that? What do I need to do? How hard do I need to work? And so I think that a lot of that came down to it for me. Joe: That's great. So, Sean, real quick, you you and I are probably close to the same age, I might even be older, but the we had parents from potentially the Depression era. Right. Or at least my mother Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: Came from that. So it was always even though they were encouraging, my father was more encouraging for some reason, it was just in his DNA. My mother was like the safety thing. Like, No, you just got to get a good job, work hard, go to school, go to whatever. And every time I wanted to dip my toe in an entrepreneurial pool, she was always like, Are you sure about this? Even as I got older when I was literally being successful doing various companies that I opened. So Lacey said that her parents were very supportive. How about you and your your parents? Shawn & Lacey: You know, my parents, and it's not that her parents were not supportive, but probably my parents were more supportive of of of just sort of the idea of being an entrepreneur. However, right now, as we are speaking, my parents don't really know what we do. So I still ask all the time, what do you guys actually Joe: Hey, Shawn & Lacey: Do Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Exactly? Joe: Can't I can't blame them, because if you look at the websites and the events that you guys are like, my head is spinning, so I get it. Shawn & Lacey: But I I also was lucky that and I just think there's about people I think if you have a conversation with somebody and you dive deep enough, superstars in life have superstar characteristics and they exhibit superstar characteristics early on, most people don't realize that they are they themselves are Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Superstars. But if you look at people that are successful, they have sort of these sort of interesting ways that they were successful. So I suppose I excelled in academics. My mother told me as an adult that there were many times that she was like, hey, are you going to study for that test? And I was like, now? And that she she was like, it was a dilemma as a mother because she wanted me to fail so I would learn the lesson. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: But I never did. And she's like, somehow you just kept getting through. And I got great grades and I was successful in music. And so they at least in the area of music, I when I left high school, I either wanted to be a professional soccer player or a professional musician playing the saxophone. I went to Indiana University, which has Joe: Great Shawn & Lacey: A very Joe: School, Shawn & Lacey: Good soccer Joe: Great, Shawn & Lacey: Team and a great music program, Joe: Great. Shawn & Lacey: And it took me less than a semester to figure out that I wasn't going to be able to do either one of those. And so then I had to kind of figure out. But they were always very supportive in the sense of do what you want. I think also to a contrast, I didn't have any school debt compared to Lacey's two hundred and fifty thousand. So my parents at least, you know, they were they were, though, of that mindset. Right. You know, buy a house, save money, pay for your kid's education. That was the mark of success. And I was I was the beneficiary of that. And they were also very, very supportive. I will say to I think actually I'm more like you, Joe. Yeah. Yeah, Joe: Oh, yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Actually, Joe: Ok. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. My my father was born in nineteen twenty seven Joe: Oh, and my Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Father Shawn & Lacey: So. Joe: Was born in nineteen twenty nine, so. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, and so I actually grew up and my mother, my father, it was in his DNA to just to just to just love one on me and like just say you can do these things. My mother was actually the worrywart. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Exactly. Shawn & Lacey: So I always say she was one of those people that could could find the worst case scenario and anything. Right. And and that and I don't know if you can relate to that, but I meet a lot of people that, yeah, I Joe: Gosh. Shawn & Lacey: Grew up that grew up with somebody. And so it would be like, OK, but if you do this, here's what could happen. Right. So it was a it was an interesting, I think, balance that the two of them played in my in my life and I was in the middle of it. And so for me, I wasn't like Sean. Like I instead I pushed back and try to do everything as independently as I could. Right. And so it was very different, I think, growing up. Joe: God, it's so nice to meet someone who had the same dichotomy of the father and the mother, and it was she was so protective and so fearful because Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: She they they had an alcoholic father who left. They had just there. Shawn & Lacey: My mom, too. Joe: Yeah. They just scrounged for everything. It was just it was devastating for them when they were young. So she didn't want any of those. She didn't want me to take any chances at all. But I was the middle child. I was the one that just constantly bought the system. And she just Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: My poor mother, I from God. Man, old Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: Man. Shawn & Lacey: Know I said I told my mom, too, I don't know how you how you did it with me, No. One. And then we fed into their worrying, Joe: Mm Shawn & Lacey: Right, Joe: Hmm. Shawn & Lacey: Because Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: We kept bucking back. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: So, Joe: Yeah, well, Shawn & Lacey: You know. Joe: That's that's awesome. So, OK, so you meet and it's is it twenty eleven when you well you met before then but twenty eleven is when you kind of really started this relationship and partnership. Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: Is that true Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: For Shawn & Lacey: We met in 2006, Joe: Ok. Shawn & Lacey: And then I think we started dating like end of 2010, yeah. Joe: Ok, and you had one chiropractic location out in California. Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Ok, so what is the conversation that happens that you say, OK, we can do more than this and we can open up either other offices of our own or we've created such a successful practice that we could actually duplicate this and franchise it? I don't know what came first or how, but I'm Shawn & Lacey: Let Joe: Interested Shawn & Lacey: Me give you an idea Joe: Because there's Shawn & Lacey: The Joe: Many Shawn & Lacey: Answer Joe: Business Shawn & Lacey: To Joe: Out Shawn & Lacey: That. Joe: There that, like, I have a entertainment booking agency and I have systems in place that if I got ran over by bus today, literally someone could walk in and everything goes in order Shawn & Lacey: It's Joe: And Shawn & Lacey: Great. Joe: It's all planned out and it's totally franchise able. If I ever wanted to do that, I'm probably too old to do something like that. So but how did you how did this conversation happen? Because I looked in all the locations you have in some of them, you have multiple one of the locations. You have four offices alone in it, right? Four. Shawn & Lacey: Mm hmm. Joe: So you guys really blew this up. And I'd love for the audience who has this maybe in the back of their mind. How does someone go about this conversation and then take those steps? And I know that's part of what you also do in your training. So we're going to get to all of that. But this interests Shawn & Lacey: Absolutely. Joe: Me as well. Shawn & Lacey: So I think even if someone is listening, we are two people, but anybody listening is probably had this conversation with themselves as if even if you're one person, sort of this, you know, white right shoulder, left shoulder, good angel, bad angel. However you want to configure it. I my role in that, that is that my mindset always has been one of superabundance. I'm one that is the opposite of the risk of, you know, this is all the bad things that can happen. My position is always like, yeah, but this is all the cool stuff that could happen if it went the other way. And that's sort of where my my focus goes. Lacey can share that hers is is different and how it's different. But I always thought that man, we could just figure this out and then really what that the desire was for me was to reach as many people as possible. That was one of my big lessons in Costa Rica. I remember I had four offices in Costa Rica. There's four million people in Costa Rica. And what I realized was that four million at that time. There's probably more now. But what I realized is that I wasn't even making a dent. I was like, we've got four when we were busy, like my office was seeing two hundred and fifty patient visits, patient transactions per day, Joe: Oh, my Shawn & Lacey: Five Joe: Gosh. Shawn & Lacey: And a half days a week. People were pouring in. And I'm like, and we're still not making it that we're not we're not getting close like we're not. We would need to have such an incredible infrastructure to really reach more people. And that was sort of a big transition for me. I think that people that want to scale in the sense of multiple units, franchising, etc., as you come to this realization that you're just one person, seven billion people on the planet, this podcast, the reason why we agree to come on it is because it amplifies our voice, the people that are listening to the podcast or the people that don't normally listen to us and vice versa. And so the effort is gaining leverage by being able to scale your message for me and being in the service world to reach more people. So that was always in the back of my mind. I wanted people I wanted to just reach more people. Now, then, your question. So that's the pre answer, because then your question is like, so what does the conversation look like? And that's not as easy, because if it were that easy, everybody would do it. I always say people that are in the service world that have a passion to reach a lot of people, that is the answer. Well, then why don't they do that? Because here's the scariest thing to do before he adds sort of what that transition look like is that in the service world, if we are if we really believe that we are impacting and changing people's lives fundamentally by whatever it is we do, whether you're a massage therapist or a hairstylist or whatever you do, like you feel like the person on the other side of the transaction, that their life is radically changed as a result of your doing it. Shawn & Lacey: Don't you actually have an obligation then to reach as many people as possible? And I'll add to that and scale, because this is the problem. If you were run over by a bus and you hadn't put the systems in place, then the entire thing stops with you. Even the people that you are currently serving, they just all of a sudden don't have a way to continue on. So that's always been in my mind. Now, going to lazy and saying, yeah, let's just open up a bunch of those with zero money that is not necessarily very well received. And so she can tell you. Yeah, and people ask us all the time where you guys work together, you do everything together, you live together. And so very early on, I mean, one of the reasons I fell in love with Sean is his his ability not just to be just a visionary, but his ability to be a strategic visionary, like to see so many moves ahead, because the way that I grew up, I was taught to look at the very thing in front of you. Shawn & Lacey: Right. And so it's a very different way of going about and doing business. Not to say that I'm not a risk taker, but I just do it differently. And so we were very lucky because people saw the model that Sean had created with that original office and fell in love with it. It was all cash, no insurance, a very specific type of technique that we do. And they said, I, I want in on that. I want you to teach me how to do that. But here's the problem. He was still working in the office seeing patients with me. And it doesn't matter if you're in a relationship with somebody working together or you're in a partnership with somebody working together. What we learned very quickly is that we were doing the work of one person as two people, super inefficient. And so he's like, we need to we need a scale. We need to grow. But I'm being selfish. And I wanted him to stay and work in the office with me. And so I had a life coach. She was Russian. So she was very straightforward. Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: She and she said she she didn't have a filter. And she literally said to me one day, she said. I want you to know that what I'm feeling is that you're holding Sean back from being able to do the thing that he's good at. It's like so crazy. Why Joe: Not Shawn & Lacey: Would you say Joe: Me, Shawn & Lacey: Something Joe: Be Shawn & Lacey: Like that? Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: Come on. And luckily, I don't I'm not an individual takes things personally. And so I went home to Sean and I said, you know, Cachalia, my life coach, she said this crazy thing to me. She said, I'm holding you back. And he looked me dead in the face. And he said, You are. And so the very next day, that's when he started doing his thing. And he never came in the office again. And because I'm an executer and I'm really good at that and I'm great at systems and infrastructure, that's my superpower. And I recognize that. And I recognize that he's a strategic visionary by having that separation and allowing us to do what we were strongest at, I think, was the catapult to allow us to scale that business specifically. Joe: And that is such an important thing that you just said, and I think it's the biggest problem with partnerships and like you said, even though you're married and you're also partners in a business, I think I learned this from a couple of restaurant owners that I'm friends with that are no longer in the business together. But just because one of them retired was that they had very strategic like a line in the sand. And this is your side of the room and this is my side of the room. And one of them was all front of house and the other one was all the back and part of it. And it was they never crossed those lines. And I think that's important to maybe like you said, you make a list of your superpowers and you say, OK, here's all the things I'm good at. I'm going to take all of that on my shoulders as part of the business. And do you agree or disagree? These are all the things that you're really good at. You take all those. I think that's a recipe for success. And it's so important that you said that. I think that's missed a lot. Everyone they Shawn & Lacey: It Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: Is. Joe: It's just like this is a big pot of soup and everybody wants to stir and you Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: Can. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, let me get some Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Of that you don't know what you're getting, Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Right, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: And I'll tell you, Joe, the other thing that we did when we learned that lesson is we translated that into our are the personal side of our life. And so we created very clear lines and roles and things that we do in our household as well, because that that we want that to be just as successful as our businesses. So it's never a question of who's doing the laundry or the dishes or responsible for shopping or paying the bills. It's never like, did you do that? Why didn't you do that? We know who does what. And that helps actually in that personal side of things as well. And it was just a great lesson to adopt on both ends. Joe: See, I knew I loved you guys. This Shawn & Lacey: Gus. Joe: Is good looking power couple, just I mean, Joel and my life partner were the exact same way. We've been together for twenty two years. We we do Shawn & Lacey: All that. Joe: Stuff together and we just it's just a perfect situation. But it takes like anything. All the little stumbles along the way. But you figure it out. But it's I love that. That's awesome. And I bet you're the only person who has the run of the house is Dexter. Shawn & Lacey: Oh, Joe: You're Shawn & Lacey: My gosh, Joe: Right. Dexter Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Gets away with anything. Dexter is your Shawn & Lacey: Well, Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: How could you tell he's here, somebody somewhere Joe: There is. Shawn & Lacey: He was scratching at the door and I just had to tell texting our team, get the dog. Somebody needs to get the dog. Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Yes, he has the run of the house. I'm sure you could tell. Joe: Right. That's awesome. OK, so what's the time frame when you opened up the second office or you started the franchise, however that happened. Shawn & Lacey: I'm just going to clarify for you some of these questions, my sense of time, that is my weakness. So if if Laci said it was three years after or said it was three months after, I would agree with either answer. So I'm going to have to if you ask me, how long have you known Laci? I Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Don't know. Joe: Am exactly the same way. When did you meet, like where? I don't remember. Sorry. Shawn & Lacey: Do you want to know how bad is actually at time that he he thought it was the most brilliant idea and somehow he talked me into it for us to get married on my birthday, which also happens to be New Year's Eve. So he will never forget the dates on any of those. Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: Talk Joe: Not Shawn & Lacey: About a smart businessman. Joe: True and that's not fair. She gets ripped off on two other holidays. Shawn & Lacey: No, that's false, and it's the world's biggest party on her birthday Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: My Shawn & Lacey: On Joe: God. Shawn & Lacey: Our anniversary, it's the best. So Joe: Oh, God. Shawn & Lacey: So two thousand nine is when people started coming and saying, I want to get in on this model. Joe: And Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: I'm Shawn & Lacey: We had. Joe: Sorry and I hate to interrupt you, but when you say Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: People because you brought this up a couple of times Shawn & Lacey: Oh, Joe: Now, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: I don't understand who those people would be. They wouldn't necessarily be patients. They would be people that are in the chiropractic industry. And they look at you as being, wow, you guys are killing and how do I do that? Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, and I should probably I think for context, I don't know if you said it in your in your intro, your story, but when Sean came back from Costa Rica, because literally he was starting over, the first thing he did was take a job at the chiropractic college. I don't know if we had mentioned Joe: No. Shawn & Lacey: That before. Joe: Ok, perfect. Shawn & Lacey: And so he was at the chiropractic school and he was teaching chiropractic philosophy. And then he was teaching like the one real business class that they had at the school. And so that gave him exposure to a lot of other chiropractic students, people that were graduating to see and understand the way that he viewed business and what we were trying to do with the specific chiropractic centers. So those are the individuals that said, I want to be part of this. I see the vision. I see where you're going. I love the model. And early on, we actually had it created as a licensing model. But that just gets a little bit sticky for anybody out there that's trying to scale in a licensing model. You really have to have ownership, I guess, and all of them. But a true franchise, it takes time, money, energy and a lot of good advice to to create, especially in health care. So we had about six offices that were under the licensing model and we went moved into a legitimate franchise and then grew from there in two thousand and sixteen. Joe: Ok, and so how many do you have now? Shawn & Lacey: 13. Joe: Wow, that's incredible. Shawn & Lacey: And they span from we have to in Hawaii and then they go all the way to Tennessee. So far, this Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: One. Joe: Incredible. Shawn & Lacey: No. Joe: Yeah, you guys are killing it. I love this story, and that's why I said I was so excited to have you on and I was like, I'm going to need hours to interview these two. There's just like so many things. OK, so the most important thing, not the most important thing, but one thing I want to touch upon, because there's I'm sure the people that are listening to this and eventually watching the YouTube version of this are going to say, how do I learn more? That is not going to get covered in the short time that we have together. So you put out a book called None of Your Business in twenty nineteen. And it's a winning approach to turn service providers into entrepreneurs. And I love that because even when I listen to a little bit of your interview with Steve Sims, it Shawn & Lacey: You. Joe: Was it was like it's more than just providing a service. You are it's not transactional, right? It's more of like you're doing something you're passionate about. And the ultimate thing at the end is that, you know, you've helped somebody. It's Shawn & Lacey: Mm Joe: That Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: To me, that's what it is for me for sure. With everything that I do, it's like, how can I help did this? How can I help you, you know, those sort of things. So I feel like that's the approach that that I get from the both of you and what your book is about. So can you talk a little bit about the book? Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, the book definitely has more in depth, our story, plus the fundamentals that we teach from from marketing sales mindset, and we've had to do a ton of work together as a couple on mindset mindset. You can have all of the right instruction and do all of the right things, but your mindset could blow that. And part of that is exactly what you are talking about. Sometimes service providers shoot themselves in the foot because they want to help a lot of people. And that becomes overwhelming to the point that that desire to serve destroys the business. And so you have a business hand and a service hand. Basically, these two hands are coexisting, but they really can't meet because they they they are they are the antithesis to the business hands. Like, we have to make money. The service hands, like, well, we should just give it away for free. And so how do you reconcile that and be successful? And ultimately, you know, it all circles back to if you really do have this wonderful service that can change the world, the fuel that makes it go as a successful business in all businesses, every single business in the world, the sole reason for their existence is to make a profit, because if there is no profit in the business can exist and then people can't be serviced, can't be helped, can't be changed, can't be impacted. And so service providers really have a hard time with that. And so Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: That's why Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: The book. Right. And fundamentally, before we wrote the book, the premise was, is that the world's greatest service providers in the world live in relative obscurity. We don't know, you know, and I'm not knocking him. I've had the opportunity to meet him. He's a phenomenal guy. But the world doesn't know what kind of doctor Dr. Oz is Joe: The. Shawn & Lacey: And whether he's good. But he's on TV and that makes him, in our eyes, have a degree of reverence for him or belief and credibility in him. But there are people that are phenomenal musicians and artists, practitioners, hairstyles and everything, but nobody knows who they are because they refuse to embrace the business concepts that would bring their message to more people. And so that's why we wrote the book. Joe: And you hit on another thing that even at my age, it took me forever to not feel like making money was this dirty thing. Right. And our mutual friend, David Meltzer, he talks about it in such great ways that he expresses how you've got to help yourself so you can then help others. Right. You have to make sure that you and then your family and it's just changing. That whole dynamic of making money is not an awful thing and not a dirty thing. And just it I don't know. It's it's such a it was such a struggle for so long. I just I felt like, yeah. Let's just give it away. Like, I'll do this for pennies. I just want you to be happy and I can't it's not sustainable. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, you can't give what you don't have. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: I mean, and that's a lesson that we've learned many times over. I mean, you can't you can't serve out of abundance if you don't have abundance. I mean, it's very difficult. And that's the best way to reach a lot of people and make a bigger impact as to be is to be financially stable or financially full because it allows you to go out there and do the things that you need to do in order to reach them. And so that's what we that's our passion is to help service entrepreneurs to really fall in love with that idea so that they can not only touch the people and help the people that they're trying to serve, but that so they can get out of it the life that they desire to Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Write because Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: They deserve it. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: So, Joe: Yeah, and Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Yeah, that's it, they deserve it, it's people Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Don't think they deserve to have this success and Shawn & Lacey: Right. Joe: Whether it's business or financial or family or whatever it might be, it's it's amazing. The specific dotcom is all about the chiropractic offices and all of this is the franchise piece of that. Is that Shawn & Lacey: The Joe: Correct? OK, great. Shawn & Lacey: Correct. Joe: So we've already talked about that. So then we have this is where it gets complicated. And this might just be because you had certain websites before the websites and then you kept so you have you have one in together, right. So you have Sean and Lacy Dotcom and Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Then you have Sean del Dotcom. And then on top Shawn & Lacey: There's Joe: Of Shawn & Lacey: Also Joe: That. Shawn & Lacey: Makes it look like we need to Joe: Oh Shawn & Lacey: Clean all Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: These up, no. Joe: So it's just so and at the end I'm going to do this and all the show notes and everybody will know where to find you everywhere. So it won't matter. But so is it important to talk about Sean and Lacey Dotcom and Sean Del Dotcom at this point, or is it better to talk about the Black Diamond Club dotcom? Shawn & Lacey: Like Diamond Club Dotcom. Joe: I mean, we could talk about it all, I just don't I Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, no. Joe: We only have a little bit more time, but I want to make sure we get through everything and I want to also make sure that we promote the August event coming up in Carmel, Indiana. So let's talk about Black Diamond Club, because that'll segway into what you're Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: Doing with that organization, the events that you have and all of that. Shawn & Lacey: Yes, a black diamond club is the place where service entrepreneurs go to receive instruction or marketing sales mindset. But I think more importantly, support and accountability. Six hundred and twenty plus service providers that are all there sharing best practices. One of the things that people always talk about that the fast food drive thru concept is not a restaurant concept. It's a banking concept. Banks really don't. Few banks have that little tube thing that goes back and forth. But they were the ones that introduced this banking from your car, the restaurant industry. It was a swipe and deploy like that's genius. Can we put it in our and McDonald's and then they don't have to get out of their car and come in. And I always say, like, think about how much you could learn if you weren't just surrounded by people in your industry like you. You found out what other industries were doing well. And then you actually thought about how can you apply that into your industry? And that's really what Black Diamond Club is about, is looking at what's working in the world. You know, e commerce. We don't sell things. Shawn & Lacey: We sell a service. But still, you know, people in e commerce, they really get social media, advertising, Legian, they get email, follow ups, they understand retention. So if you are looking at how can I improve that, maybe it would be worthwhile looking at things that they were doing. And that's what Black Diamond Club really, really is all about. It's a great place. Never will you be talked down to, never will you be looked down upon. But also, I think really important. It's a place where you can come and also say, hey, guys, I had my biggest month. I collected two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in revenue this month and everybody will celebrate you as well. That's part of that, too, is we don't know when you're saying, like, the mindset around money. Oftentimes we're afraid to tell people how well we're doing because we don't want to be shot down, especially by someone that we hold in high regard or that is close to us. So we've tried to create a community where we can foster that high energy and help service professionals to to go out and reach more people. Joe: Ok, so you have the specific and you have this chiropractic franchise and you're building this amazing business. When do you decide that? Wait a second. This is something that is goes well beyond chiropractic and chiropractic offices. You are building a model of success. So all of a sudden, one night you're sitting down at dinner and a glass of wine and you go, hey, wait a second. We're once again, we need to expand our mind and say, this is this is too narrow. Obviously, we're helping all of these chiropractors build successful businesses and being part of our franchise. But we can actually take this a step further. We can create a black diamond club that actually works with all forms of entrepreneurs. So is that sort of how this came about? Shawn & Lacey: Well, I wish it was that easy or simple, but I like the glass, I Joe: See how I put Shawn & Lacey: Use that Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Now. Joe: Put Shawn & Lacey: Why Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: Didn't Joe: Those Shawn & Lacey: We Joe: Words Shawn & Lacey: Have wine? Joe: In? Shawn & Lacey: I think I think first and foremost, from very early on, like all of the business principles that Sean taught were not, you know, from the old ways of chiropractic thinking, it wasn't from our profession and from our industry. In fact, very early on in our relationship, when we were still struggling financially, he wanted to hire a business coach and he had been teaching out of Michael Sportsbook yourself solid book for many years to all of the chiropractic students in learning how to build community and really attract their ideal client. And so he came to me one time and again in my mentality, I was like, there's no way we're ever going to be able to afford that. We can't we can't handle that. And he said we'll figure it out. The money will come. And we figured it out. And Shawn was able to become a book yourself, solid certified coach. And that was kind of the first movement in going, man, this stuff that's outside of our profession, in our industry translates really well into what we do. But, hey, business concepts are business concepts and they actually translate into any profession. So we always had those thoughts. But really the story goes that there was another individual, another group in chiropractic that was very negative, that based on people that talked down to people that didn't support their individuals that were in the group. And one day Shawn was just like, we're just going to create the exact opposite of that, the exact opposite of that. And that's what we did. And that's how Black Diamond Club in a nutshell, got started. And we want it to be everything. That group was not so that people could have a place to go, where they could grow, reach more people, be supported and not be ashamed. Joe: That's great. When did you start, like nine o'clock? Shawn & Lacey: Twenty sixteen. Joe: Wow, so you're Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: Already busy and you just said, let's the heck with it, let's tax something else on the plate. Shawn & Lacey: It was a need and, you know, if you listen to the people, they'll tell you what they need Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: And if you have the skill set to fill that gap, then you should. And that's what we did. Joe: Perfect. How about tell us about the summercamp twenty twenty one that's coming up on the 13th and 14th of August in Carmel, Indiana. Shawn & Lacey: Well, this is edition number five of Summercamp, it was started by our good friend Tristan Qof. He had created this event separate from us that had nothing to do with us. And he wanted to create an event that brought together chiropractor's and expose them to entrepreneurs, which really fits our brand. But that was an idea that he had birthed. The very first edition was held in Las Vegas and the keynote speaker was Grant Kardon. And a Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Lot of people were like, oh, wow, how did you get greencard on? The second edition had a stellar lineup. Brian Tracy was one of the keynotes, had multiple keynotes. Tom, Billu was there. I mean, it was it was an all star lineup. It was starting to grow. And Tristin at that point was a one man show. And so we saw his his his struggles in trying to run around and put on events of that caliber. And we were like, hey, Lacey really gets scale and process and organization and we could really help you. And so he was like, look, why don't you just acquire me? So we acquired the company and we kept Tristant on. And then we did audition number three in Miami with DJ Abraham. Roger Stone spoke Joe: Resum, Shawn & Lacey: At that one. Also, Roger Love, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Audition number four last year, right in the middle of the pandemic in person, we had Jordan Belfort and Eric Thomas headline. And then this year we're celebrating our fifth year. Carmel, Indiana's just north of Indianapolis, just just north of Indianapolis. We have David Meltzer. We have Patrick. But David, who's all over the news right now with this Trump and Obama debate, we have Steve Simms's speaking, Chris Winfield, Jen Gottlieb, John, ruling from Gift. This the super Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Pac lineup. It is all about helping service providers. These are these are speakers that normally you would hear at an entrepreneurial Joe: Mm hmm. Shawn & Lacey: Conference. But it's it's helping expose service providers to these concepts and helping them understand how to apply them in their business so that they can reach even more people. Joe: That's incredible. I have no idea what the cost of this thing is, but just the fact that David Meltzer is there. Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Had. Joe: Had the opportunity to spend a full day with him in his office in California. Joellen and I went out and literally shadowed him from nine o'clock in the morning. And then later on, we had drinks that night and met his wife. And it was just the most incredible thing. And that the positivity that comes from him and Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: It's just amazing. So that alone is I don't even know what what it cost, but that alone is worth the price of admission, just that alone. Shawn & Lacey: Well, I'm going to throw in there I don't I don't even have a link to this, but one of the things that we'll be putting out here in the back half of the year, so if people plug in with Laci and and social media, we are we are collaborating with David and we are putting on a two two day, three night mastermind on a private island in the Caribbean in December. So it'll be myself and Laci and David Meltzer trapped on a private island. So that's great. You'll have us locked there to be able to help you to ask any questions. I mean, probably Laci mostly just being having cocktails. I'm sure David will be happy for everybody's going to want so when he's there. But that's something we're super excited about, being able to collaborate with him. And he's just like you said, and one day imagine two days Joe: It's. Shawn & Lacey: And imagine, you know, your dinner is together. Yeah. You're doing everything together. So we're super excited about that. And we'll have information out about that very soon. Joe: That's cool, because we Joellen and I like to go away during the summer because we don't really have family here in Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: Phoenix, Arizona, so, hey, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Maybe you'll get stuck with us for that trip. Shawn & Lacey: I would love Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: That Joe: Right, Shawn & Lacey: Would not Joe: Cool. Shawn & Lacey: Be a bad thing. Joe: No, not to be awesome. Yeah, I'm sorry. I actually missed you guys. You were here in Phoenix in March, right? Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: You ran an event here. So you. Shawn & Lacey: That was our first time in Phoenix in a long time. Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: We do we do three events a year. We do one on marketing, one on sales, and then one around money mindset. And we typically like to kind of move them throughout the country because we've got clients Joe: Sure. Shawn & Lacey: From coast to coast. So Phoenix, that's where we were doing our Money Mindset workshop. Joe: Now, let's Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Call. Shawn & Lacey: We shout out to Phoenix, you guys really had it together. It wasn't super restrictive. We have been very pro keeping our events going during this time. And Phoenix was very cooperative. We had a really good time there. So Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: It really sounds like a great place to be. Joe: It is, but we they get in trouble because there they are a little overzealous when the data is said, take your mask off. And I went to the Shawn & Lacey: Well. Joe: Gym and I got a lifetime, literally. I walked in. Not one person that I'm Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Like, there's there's no on ramp, folks. What's going on? It was ridiculous. I was like, you're telling Shawn & Lacey: That's Joe: Me, Shawn & Lacey: Funny. Joe: Oh, is there anything else that I missed? What's the best place to get in touch with the both of you or the specific or Black Diamond Club? And again, I'll put it all in the show notes. But do either of you like people to reach out on Instagram, any of that stuff? What works for you? Shawn & Lacey: Social media is great, you can reach me and Sean Black Diamond Club dot com, that's my email. Yeah, basically we try to be here's one thing that I've learned is that as I've been around more successful people. You mentioned Joe: David Shawn & Lacey: David Meltzer. Joe: Is. Shawn & Lacey: I specifically asked him, I was like, you're giving your personal email out all the time, all over the place, national television. You don't care. How does that work? And I just found, like, super successful people are hyper responsive. That's why they're that's why they're successful. And so this is me getting over that. I'm giving my personal email shonen at Black Diamond Club dot com. Yeah. Hit me up. And if there's any way that I can provide value to your life, I will be more than happy to do that. I'm usually I usually like maybe once or twice a year, send out an email to just saying, you know, tell me what I can do for you if I can do it within reason and on this day I will comply. So likewise, if it's an within reason and I can get it done quickly, I can't take on a project, but if I can get it done quickly, make the ask, I'd be happy to help. And we're on all the social media platforms. Sean Delisi book. I bet you could guess my email address. COVID-19 Club dot com super easy. And if you want any more information, Black Diamond Club dot com is the best place to find about all the things we're doing. Joe: That's perfect. One question I didn't ask during the book conversation was I know authors when they write a book, they say it's a struggle like it's a hard thing to do. It's not as easy as people think. How how easy was it or hard with two of you writing the same book and and how did you figure out who's writing what? Or did you just sit down together? It's just something that came to my brain that I wanted to ask that question. Shawn & Lacey: I'm going to shameless plug, and if I can help you, although you're very well established, you don't need my help. Tucker Max from Scribe, Joe: Oh, yeah, I know, yeah. Shawn & Lacey: That's all. So that's how we do. The book is a chain of the chain of command on this was Abraham sat us down in his office and said, you need to write a book. And I was like, I was like, no, it sounds like a terrible idea. And he was like, well, there's a lot of ways to write a book. We were introduced to Tucker by Tristan Sharp, who I mentioned earlier. We hit it off. Tucker was like, let's just get this book done in the process with Scribe is painless. I mean, they really do have it down. People that read that book after knowing me, they say it's kind of you get to pick, but the book is written in my voice. And so people are like, yeah, I can hear you. It's we don't have an audio book. If we did, I would probably be the one that reads the book. But super simple. We just collaborate on our ideas. You meet with the scribe people, they get the thoughts out of your collector right out, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Put it on the paper and write it. I highly recommend if you have a book in, you use Scribe. Yeah, well worth the money because you'll just it just amplifies your voice again. Joe: Yeah, that's great. It's so funny, I know Tucker's program, and I actually I think I started doing it and I was like, do I really have a book? I mean, so who Shawn & Lacey: You Joe: Knows? Shawn & Lacey: Do you do an. Joe: Is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to speak about before I let you go? Shawn & Lacey: Not me, I think you did a great job, Harry. A lot Joe: All right, well, cool. Shawn & Lacey: A lot of real estate. Joe: I was it's you you are both very busy, so I was very nervous. I got so many things I want to ask and we'll probably have to do this again because there's there's Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: There's more. But thank you. Thank you both so much. I really appreciate you being on the podcast. I want that event in August to have a bunch of my listeners hopefully show up. So thank you again. I really appreciate it. And I wish you both all the success in the world. Shawn & Lacey: Thank you. Thank you for having us. If your listeners show up, we promise that we will make them feel right at home. Joe: Perfect. Thank you so much.  

Decluttering Tips For Hoarders with Tracy McCubbin was my guest recently on my podcast, "The Joe Costello Show". She is a decluttering expert and she shared how she got started, what her business does and some tidbits that can really help you get started. Tracy's company has so many service to help people declutter their home, office, home office, etc. She also has other services such as closet audits, garage organization, moving services, senior downsizing, estate decluttering. Please go to https://dclutterfly.com/ and check out how she might be able to help. Tracy has also written a book called "Making Space, Clutter Free: The Last Book on Decluttering You'll Ever Need" which you can buy at Amazon or support this cool book website called BookShop.org. Here's the link to the book: Making Space, Clutter Free: The Last Book on Decluttering You'll Ever Need  Also check out OneKidOneWorld which Tracy plays an important role in as the Co-Executive Director     Thanks for listening! Joe Tracy McCubbin CEO & Owner of dClutterfly Website: https://dClutterfly.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dclutterfly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tracy_mccubbin Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thisistracymccubbin Private FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2036212949941199 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracy-mccubbin-566829b2/ One Kid One World: https://www.onekidoneworld.org/ Email: info@dClutterfly.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Tracy, welcome. I'm glad to have you on the podcast. I've been waiting to have you because clutter is is just the worst thing in the world. So I'm excited to talk to you. So welcome to the show. Tracy: Thanks, Joe. I'm super excited to be here, and it's always interesting to meet people sort of who have different expertise and different focuses like everybody have in common everybody. Joe: Yup, Tracy: So Joe: Yup. Tracy: It it's just I love talking to different people about kind of how they can manage their clutter, get ahead of their clutter and live their best life. Joe: Well, I'm excited and I, I follow a pretty strict format in the sense that I really like to know the person and I think my audience likes to know the person. And I think that's how they connect with you. I just don't want the end of this podcast to come and say other this really great woman that was on who understands how to do clutter. I want to know how you got into this and more about you. So can you kind of give us the background leading up to when you started to clarify? Tracy: Yeah, it's a very interesting subject, I like to say that I'm one of those people who all I had a bunch of jobs that turned out to not be my passion, but everything I did along the way brought me here. So I was a personal assistant for a very long time to two different people. I was a bookkeeper for small businesses. I was an administrative assistant to lawyers. I had all these various I took care of my grandmother, helped her manage her finances. So I had all these various kind of office centric jobs. And then when I was working for one of the people I was a personal assistant for, he was a television director. So when he had downtime, friends of his or he for, say, the friends of his oh, my assistant, she can handle anything. So I started helping other people. Somebody's grandmother had passed away and they need to clean up the house. They had a big accounting mess and all of a sudden people started to tell other people and I would get phone calls. And at first I wasn't charging. And then I was charging a little bit. And a friend of mine said, I think you have a business. And I was like, no, I'm just helping people. This is. And he's like, no, that's what a business is. And so I I'm like, all right, let me just see. And I made a little website and I put the word out. And that's fourteen years later at eight employees later and thousands of jobs and everything I did in the past, from acting in commercials to doing bookkeeping to taking care of my grandmother, it all led me to creating this business. And then the big piece of the puzzle, which I didn't even realize when I first started the business and I had to have a client of mine point out I'm the child of a hoarder. Tracy: So my dad is an extreme hoarder. And I have lived my whole life watching him struggle with his relationship to his stuff. So very acutely aware of our relationship to stuff is emotional and but I'm not kidding. It was like ten years into my business when this client of mine, who is a psychiatrist was like, that's so interesting. Have you ever thought of the connection? I was like, what? No, what do you mean? And then you're like, oh. So watching what my father went through and still continues to go through gave me so much empathy to people's struggle and how for so many people there's all this shame around it. I'm messy and I'm disorganized. I'm a bad housekeeper. And my goal and what I realized through clients of my dad is that that's not the case, that there is this emotional attachment. And if you're not aware of that emotional attachment, you're going to keep repeating the same mistake. So it's getting to the root of why you're hanging on to all the stuff and changing your relationship so you can have the home you want to live. So I'm a I'm late to this business. I opened this business in my forties, so I'm also a really good poster child for like if you have something you want to do, don't get stuck in the age. Don't think like I and get this done. My success is all coming my fifty. So I'm um like if you have a passion follow. It doesn't matter where you are in your life. Joe: Yes, and that's what's great, because my audience, at least what I think is my audience is really entrepreneurs like that's most of what I like, because that's where I come from. My heart is in that. So I like that. You said all of what you just said. I encourage people out there that have an idea that having made the commitment to go forward with it. So that was awesome. And I read the part about I didn't know what family, what person it was in your family, but I read that you had a family member who was a hoarder. So I'm glad you brought that up. But I wanted to know, like, what your trajectory was when you started. Like, did you what Tracy: Oh, Joe: Did you want Tracy: This is Joe: To do? Like. Tracy: Oh, this is this is even better if you if this is your conversation, I call myself an accidental entrepreneur, right. That I, I just I had no idea what I was doing. I was like, oh, let me just start a business. That'll be fine. Oh, let me just charge X an hour. Like I just made up some number which was clearly too low. And then I think about a year into my business, I read a book called The MF. That Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Right. Am Joe: Oh, Tracy: I getting Joe: Yeah, Tracy: The name of that. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah. Joe: It's a great Tracy: And Joe: Book. Tracy: I and I did the math and I was like, wow, I'm working for four dollars an hour. When I when I realized how much time I was putting in and what I was charging and another like I like when I say I had no business, I'd always work for other people, I'd always put things together. But I didn't I didn't go in with this. I didn't have a business plan. And I learned so much along the way. And every misstep was a giant step forward. And the biggest change for me, too, was when somebody said to me, you know, you're not charging for your time, you're charging for your expertise. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: And that just switched anything because I had a lifetime of dealing with someone and their staffs. And that just turned the light bulb on like, oh, right. It doesn't matter that this business has only been open for a year. I have 40 some years of doing this. And when I thought that and then I started to read more and realize and I hired a business coach and I started to really shift things around, that's when the business took off. That's when I was like, oh, stepped into the role of being an entrepreneur. And then I started to hire employees. And then I became a boss. Right. Which is a whole other thing. Joe: Yes, Tracy: And how Joe: It Tracy: Do Joe: Is. Tracy: You take care? How do you take care of your employees and how do you serve your clients and how do you not work twenty four hours a day. And so I love being an entrepreneur, but it was it wasn't an easy journey. It's not like, oh, just open your own business. I would do it no other way. And Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Had to stay really clear about because I fall a bit into the imposter syndrome, like who am I to open a business and who am I to do this? And if they want to know you've worked for work since I was 13. I've had job like I know how to do it. So I had to take all my past experiences and filter them in and realize that even though the path didn't look like a linear line, I didn't get an MBA, I didn't get venture capital. I didn't I have just as much experience, maybe more. So I always tell people, you know, in some ways you're not reinventing the wheel. A lot of people have done this. So gather information, listen to podcasts, read books. I'm a business coach if you need it. Like you can do it. If you have a great idea that know what it's done, you follow it through, follow it through. So Joe: So. Tracy: I feel I feel really I love it. I love running my own business. I love it. It's hard. Joe: Yes, Tracy: It's Joe: It is, Tracy: Hard, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You know. And some days I really I, I, I just got a text from a client. We helped them with this fundraiser that they were doing and it was a very emotional cause. And my team went and we kind of helped them organize all their stuff for it. And it was just a very grateful text. And when I get those texts, it's like, oh yeah, this is why we do this. This Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Is why we do this. So, yeah, I have a very funny like I it was not a straight line, but all roads have led me here. Joe: So I'm going to just that's where you have to bear with me for a moment, because I want to know more about Tracy, so I want to Tracy: Ok. Joe: Know, like, where you and the kid like like what Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Did you do? Like Tracy: That's Joe: Like Tracy: The Joe: So Tracy: Idea. Joe: I want you to go back a little further. So, Tracy: Ok, Joe: Like, Tracy: Yes, Joe: Go back Tracy: Absolutely. Joe: As far as you want. But I just want to know I want I think it's important because where I am today, everything. And you are saying all the right things for all of the listeners that will listen to this is that everything that you've done in the past just adds to who you've become now? Right. And it'll continue that way. And so many people lose sight of that. And at one point I did I was like, oh, I wasted so much time. And then I look back and I go, wait, that helped. And that helped. And that helped. And I learned a lesson there. And so what did you like? What was what did you want to do? Tracy: Yeah, you know, it's funny, I I was a neat child, I wasn't crazy, crazy, crazy organized, but I had a pretty between my dad being a hoarder and my parents getting divorced. I had a pretty California in the 70s. Like I had a kind of chaotic childhood. There was everywhere. Parenting was being reinvented. School was being we lived in a van for a year, traveled through Joe: If. Tracy: Europe. So I definitely like to make order out of chaos. I definitely like to know, OK, this is my space and I can live in it this way. And I also grew up very close to both of my grandmothers and my grandfather, but they came from the Midwest and Fresno and we're farm farmers. They came from and one of my grandmothers was an immigrant from Scotland and they all lived through the Depression. So my generational experience, the sort of generational trauma of living through the Depression, living through World War Two, you saved every yogurt container. You saved Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Every rubberband, learning how my ground both my grandmothers were. You don't put it down, you put it away and you fix. And I learned how to sew and I learned how to change it. I can change the oil in my car and I can change a tire. And I had all these really practical things. And also for me, I think one of the big lessons that really served me in opening my own business when I started working, I started babysitting when I was 12, 13, and I started making my own money and I was like, oh, I can buy that blue, shiny satin hang tan jacket that I really want. No one can tell me, like I learned, especially as a young woman, that money equated freedom. Right. That this money that I made also could make mistakes with it, rack up some credit card debt, like I could do that. But if I work and money comes and I have power over this and my grandmother and I, we bought some stocks and she kind of helped me figure that out. And so it was a really that was one of those life lessons that they don't teach you in school, that this is making my own money. I want to take a trip, then I can do it. And that was and I'm a worker bee hardwired that way. I like to work. So I think it was I think a lot of my childhood was trying to make order out of chaos and having control and having power, you know, and I was very blessed. Like I got to I went to UC Santa Barbara. I went to a great college. I had a lot of opportunities. My family was very pro education. So I traveled the world. So again, it's all these things that at the time like, I don't know, I'm going to live in Italy for a year to study art. The smartest thing. Yeah, it turns out it was Joe: Oh, that's awesome. Tracy: You Joe: When Tracy: Know, Joe: Was Tracy: Turns Joe: That? Tracy: Out I did that my junior year of college, Joe: Wow, Tracy: So. Joe: That was that's awesome. And Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Was there Tracy: So. Joe: Were you was there something that you were wanting to become like? Did you aspire to be or Tracy: You know, Joe: Was? Tracy: Yeah, it was funny, I never I for a while, I thought I wanted to be an actress, and so I took acting classes and I did that. I had to moderate, moderate success, but I didn't like the business side of it. And then I was so for me, it was a lot of figuring out what I didn't want to do. Joe: Uh huh. Tracy: Like I was like, oh, you know, and because I'm a hard worker and I'm industrious, kind of whatever job I had before, like, we'll promote you to manager, we'll make it up. And it was a very much a series of like, oh, I don't want to do this. I don't want to spend the day doing this. And when this business started, it was the first thing that I was like, I want to do this every day, like the rhythm of it, the helping the clients, the feeling of satisfaction when it was done. It was the first I mean, I liked other things that I did, but Joe: Mm Tracy: It Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Wasn't I was like, oh, I want to do this all day, every day. Like, I you know, technically the joke is I would do it for free. Well, there was like a year I did do it for free. It's literally like that is a brutal I'll tell anybody, the entrepreneurs, people starting a business, track your hours, track what you're getting paid, do that math because it'll gut punch you and it'll make you rethink everything. Like Joe: Goup. Tracy: When you realize, oh, I'm working for four dollars an hour. No, no, no, no, no. That's an important lesson for everybody and it makes you really rethink things. So it really wasn't until this until this business started that I realized my purpose. Joe: Right, and if I remember reading correctly, it came out of you being this service assistant to this, right? And then. Tracy: Director Yahya. Joe: Yeah, and then everybody you were helping, everybody saw all the stuff you were doing and it just went from there and then you realized. Tracy: And I'd always been, you know, it always been of service and my grandmother was there, like my grandmother was the lady at the church who kind of did everybody's books and she was a secretary at the church. And we were forever if somebody was sick, I spent a lot of time with her, we would drive over to somebody's house and we'd take them to the post office. So for me, helping people in sort of an admin sense was just a being of service. That's just what we did. We were a nice person. You help your friends. So I never thought about monetizing it. I never thought that it was a service that people desperately needed desperately. I was like, Joe: Right. Tracy: Well, of course, you know how to move yourself. You just pack your boxes. Now, people don't know how to do that. So when I realized that there were so many people that either didn't have the time or the inclination and there was a way to offer the service, get paid, help them know that was the perfect marriage, that was like, oh, this is a something that's desperately needed. And I feel like for kind of where we are in the world, it's interesting. But I think as we get further away from making things ourselves, knowing how to sew, knowing how to cook, that there are more and more people that I mean, they can do things for themselves. They just it's I Joe: I know. Tracy: You know, it's just it's just really interesting. I'm a little worried and I have young nieces and nephews, and so I'm very worried about what they can do. And so I it's just it's interesting that this has become very desperately needed service. Joe: Yeah, OK, so the name of the business is dclutterfly, right, Tracy: Correct, yep, Joe: That Tracy: DClut Joe: It's Tracy: ter Joe: A Tracy: fly. Joe: Mouthful, the cutter Tracy: Oh, trust Joe: Fly. Tracy: Me. Oh, and trust me, here's another thing I'll say to aspiring entrepreneurs. When you name your business, say it out loud all day. So it would be easy to come off the time and then try and spell the website, because that's something else I didn't think about. So when I give people the email, they there's D.. C. There's no Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Easy people leave it up. So do a little bit of market research. Go. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Can Joe: That Tracy: I, can Joe: It Tracy: I say this. Yeah. Joe: It's so funny, it's all those Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Little things you learn as you're doing it, you print your business cards and people, and especially you get older clients that want the help with some of these services that you have. And the prince too small and you're just like, oh, my God. Tracy: I went I went through that I rebranded the company about two, three years ago and the designers did a beautiful job and I was like, the font is too small and they're like white. And I'm like, oh, I'm like they're like we have like less tags, bigger font. Joe: Yes. Tracy: Like the bulk of my clients are over 50, like make it big. Joe: Right, right. That's awesome. Tracy: I, I just about a year ago I bought my first about a truck, a 17 foot truck because we're so busy and I got it wrapped and it's like my traveling billboard and I was like no bigger, bigger, Joe: Mm Tracy: Bigger Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Phone, no bigger. And the guy that the drug had the rapping place, like, are you sure? I'm like, bigger, bigger, Joe: That's Tracy: Bigger. Joe: Awesome. That's perfect. OK, so your your I know you have clients all over, but you're you're based out of California. Tracy: Yeah, and based in Los Angeles pre pandemic, we were I was in New York a lot traveling a lot post pandemic were starting to travel again. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: I'll go anywhere. But right now it's been the book is Los Angeles to New York. Joe: Ok, perfect. So I want to go through the services quick, because I want everyone Tracy: Yeah. Joe: To sort of understand. And so I want to start with the home, the home de cluttering and it also on on the website, his office as well. And that's that's an important piece for me. And I think the audience, because if there are entrepreneurs out there, like my desk was clean a couple of weeks ago and now I'm in the middle of doing a bunch of videos and I have research materials and now it's starting to become something that I can't look at. So. So Tracy: Yep. Joe: Let's start with that. The home deck fluttering, plus the office stuff. And and just a brief explanation of each so that at least we can get an idea Tracy: Yes, Joe: Of what that means. Tracy: That's great. Go home and office cluttering is if your space that you live in or work in is unmanageable. I always tell people the really good litmus test is if you can't tidy up a room and make it presentable where you have somebody else walk in in 20 minutes or less, you have too much stuff. So that services we come in, we help people sort through it. We help people figure out what they need to keep, what they need to let go of, and then creating systems for where it goes. So in an office, where do you keep your printer? Is it near the printer where you keep your paper? How much paper do you need to print out? Can we move you to digital? And if we move you to digital, how do you organize it? How do you find that is a really important thing in offices, in the whole home, but really in your offices, where do you put the things you need to keep so that you can access them when you need them, that you can go and buy? And don't tell me. I know there's people out there that are saying I know where everything is in my office. There's giant piles on their desk. I'm like, that doesn't count. You Joe: Right. Tracy: Can't point to a giant pile and say, oh, I know what's in there. First of all, you don't I'm talking about you won't be able to find it like, Joe: Right. Tracy: You know, creating filing systems or digital filing systems. And it's and again, the really underlying message is this isn't about creating a home that you can put on Instagram or Pinterest. You can if you want. It's about creating a space that works for you. And now if you are working from home pandemic, from home schooling, from home, all you got to make your space work. You just have to make your space work. They've done so many studies, they scientists about the effects of clutter and stress. It just this is all about that. It raises your cortisol so puts you in a fight or flight your brain. I'm sure you've probably talked about this on here, but decision fatigue, where you make so many decisions, your brain just shuts down. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Will every piece of clutter in your house is a decision? Do I need it? Do I not need it? Where does it live? So the physical and mental effects of clutter are very real, very, very, very real. So my purpose isn't, again, to create I'm not saying be a minimalist. I'm not a minimalist. You know, it works for you. But is your home is your office working for you? Is it working for you? Chances are for a lot of people it's not. Joe: Right. Tracy: And that's OK. You may not we don't know what we don't know. Right. So if it's not working and if you have an issue with that or if if it's tough for you, you know, it it's like I always say, if you didn't know how to play the violin, you have beat yourself up like I wasn't born knowing how to play the violin. You might not have been born organized. You might have spatial issues. You might have added. There may be a bunch of things. So let's not beat yourself up for it. Let's educate and get it working for you. Joe: Yeah, you hit it on the head because cluttered just causes me angst, like I hate my garage, I hate walking in my garage, and so I understand it, Tracy: Can you even walk in your garage because only 20. Joe: But it's lucky I can. There's so many of our neighbors that have their cars in their driveway, in the hot sun here in Arizona because they have so much stuff in their garage. And that was like priority number one. My Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Car has to go in the garage. It's one hundred Tracy: Only, Joe: And thirteen outlets like. Tracy: Yeah, only twenty five percent of Americans can park their cars in their garage. Joe: Really? Tracy: Seventy five percent of Americans who have garages cannot park their cars Joe: That's Tracy: That. Joe: Amazing. Tracy: I know, I always say I always say we put our forty thousand fifty thousand dollar cars on the street where we fill our garage with trash. Joe: That's you know what, and you might I don't want to put you on the spot, but I can't imagine what the statistic is of people that have storage units and how many times they visit that unit a year. I just Tracy: It's Joe: I, I could Tracy: It's Joe: Never bring Tracy: A. Joe: Myself to have one. Tracy: This is where I get on my soapbox, this is the thing I get on my cell phone calls Joe: I Tracy: About Joe: Knew this was Tracy: And Joe: Going to kick Tracy: I Joe: Something Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Off here. Tracy: It's a billion dollar industry, a billion dollars. I have been in no exaggeration, hundreds of storage units, hundreds. I have had clients who because I make them do it, I've done the math of what they've spent on that storage unit. Twenty thousand thirty thousand a hundred thousand dollars. I have never once and I say it is no exaggeration, I have never once been in a storage unit or what's in there is worth more than what they paid to store it. It is a colossal waste of money. You will never go there if you have something in storage that you can't access. Why are you storing it? Joe: That's. Tracy: There is it is. I like till I'm blue in the face, I'm like, get rid of it, get rid of it, get rid. I have had clients crumble to their knees when they open it up and see what they've been saving. There's no there's like one or two slight somebody sometimes doing a remodel. There's a few Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Where I'm like, oh no, no, maybe. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Let's Joe: It's. Tracy: See if we can find another way. It is, it is just take money and just burn it because Joe: Correct. Tracy: It is such a waste of money. Joe: Amen. I agree with Tracy: Yeah. Joe: You. I just it's so funny, and I just figured I'd throw that out because I, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: I knew that was going to trigger. Tracy: Yeah, I know, and it's people don't go there and they don't it's just really like if I can convince anything to anybody, just don't have it, don't Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Have it, don't Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Get it. Because once you get it, you're never going to empty. Joe: Ok, real quick on the on the topic of the home and office right now in your business, how much is home and how much is it? When I say office, I'm not talking about Home Office because I'm I would think because of covid home offices are on the rise because so many. Right. So Tracy: Yeah. Joe: But but do you actually go to commercial office spaces to help CEOs Tracy: I do, Joe: And. Tracy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that in covid has just worn Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Down, Joe: Yep. Tracy: We haven't done any, but we have definitely we definitely will go in like work with big offices, like how do people use their space? How do people do that? I'm going to be really interesting to see if that. Comes back after covid, I Joe: Mm Tracy: Think Joe: Hmm. Tracy: We're going to get a lot of those calls, the way the business sort of shakes out now, I mean, right now we've just been trying to get everybody off. Does that how that was that was like how do you work from home? How do you go from home? That's been a big one, but it's probably it's probably a third of the business is senior downsizing. A third of the businesses are moving services and a third of the business is declaring Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Home declaring and then probably 20 percent that is office. I'm excited. I also think that when we go back, how offices work are going to change because everybody's like open floor plan. And now it's like, well, maybe not so much. So I'll be curious to see how that goes. I've also interestingly, too, I've had a couple calls lately about helping already offices, office companies that are moving small, 10 people, companies that are moving and setting up the office spaces before people even get in there. So that's a that's a thing that's starting to happen. And I think it's really how to keep people safe and covid and that kind of stuff. So that's that's always interesting to me. Joe: Perfect. OK, so let's go down the list here, so the next one that I have is closet audit. And Tracy: That's a good one. Joe: I Tracy: Yep. Joe: Know. Tracy: So, yeah, I have a couple of the people who work for me are like they can make it look like the Carrie Bradshaw perfect closet. So we come in, we help you figure out what you wear, what you don't wear. Get rid of the stuff that you don't wear. We donate everything. And then it's organizing like the like color coordinated matching hangers. Like it's really. And the thing first of all, it looks beautiful, but also your clothes are an armor that you go out into the world with. And if you have if you have a business where you have to meet with clients or you have to go in and pitch your services to another company, if you start your day off digging through the laundry basket to put something on, you're starting at a deficit. You're already starting stressed. I wear the same thing to work every day. I have 10 shirts from the same company, ten different colors. I have four pairs of jeans. I have my nice Nike shoes that are comfortable, but they're fashionable. I don't want to think about it. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: I want to get dressed. I wear a nice belt, I look presentable, but I look like I can roll my sleeves up. I figured out what works and I don't think about it. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Just don't think about it. And I start my day ready to go. It's not my morning isn't about like, oh, what am I going to wear? What am I. So people have to understand, if your closet is disorganized, it's not serving you right. You're already starting the day. Right? Where are my keys? I packed my lunch and what happens and what people don't understand is, OK, so you're taking your clothes out a laundry basket, you can't find your keys. You're running late. Oh, you didn't make yourself breakfast. So you're going to go through the drive thru. So you're going to eat Egg McMuffin and coffee like you've already set your day up so that you're not at your peak. Joe: He. Tracy: Right. You know, if you knew if your clothes were organized, you could get dressed, then you could make yourself that delicious smoothie that's healthy. You could start your day relaxed. And that's my whole I get out into the world ready to go, not frazzled. And especially if you've got kids like Model Man, those parents with the Zoom schooling like Joe: Oh, Tracy: To Joe: I know, Tracy: Have that, you Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Know, to have that extra to anywhere we can grab time. That's what the goal is. So if your closet's organized, you've just gained yourself fifteen minutes, right? Oh, those are my jeans are those are my shirts are great. Off Joe: Yeah, Tracy: We go. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So that's a really closet. We love deposits. We love it. We love it. We love it. And we do the really big fancy lady those. But we love closet. Joe: Let me before we get off the closet audit subject are what you do with closets, do you ever get in a situation where you go and and they not only want you to organize, but they want you to actually help design a more efficient closet, and then you Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Have to bring in Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Like a company that does all of the shelving and Tracy: Yep, Joe: Ok. Tracy: Yep, it's it's great, we've I've really started in probably about in the last three or four years of service, I'll consult on construction. So clients that I've worked with for a long time are building new homes or remodeling their homes. So I'll come in in the design phase and meet with the architect and the contractor and say, OK, look, this is how many pairs of shoes they have. This is how long this is. So I love doing Joe: Oh, Tracy: That. Joe: Cool. Tracy: It's I love it. It's a constant fight because architects do not believe people have as much stuff as they have Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Contractors don't listen to forever, like the person that's like there's no broom closet, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, Joe: Yep, yep. Tracy: There's no broom closet. They're like, what do you need? A broom closet for it? Like, we need a broom closet. Joe: Right, Tracy: We need a real good bit. Joe: Right. Tracy: So that's been really fun. I have been pitching it. I'm working on my second book, but I have been pitching for a little while. I want to do a book, so I'll probably be down the road a bit. But I want to do a book between myself, an architect, an interior designer and a cabinet worker Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: About how to remodel or build houses in the most efficient way. So that's Joe: Oh, Tracy: Super exciting. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah, it's super exciting. Joe: All right, cool. We've already touched upon this a little bit, but garage organizations, brutal. Tracy: Our favorite is Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Brutal, it's brutal. We we do it, we got we have packages one, two, three days a team goes in there. I'm at the point now where I don't do any more garages. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Never need to be in a sweaty garage Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Again. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: But my team's really good at it. It's a big and post covid this this one's been really people lots of people have been called in. They're like, we have so much toilet paper, we have so much canned goods. And that was one in terms of this is actually a great entrepreneurial point. This was one of the services that I realized. So one of the things I'm constantly balancing is how do I work on my business and in my business? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: In my business is a cult of personality. People want me. People will wait for me, people will pay for me. But I can only work so many hours so I couldn't grow the business if I'm doing it. So I had to find some of the services closets. I hired two people who are amazing at it. Garages are another way. It was a service that I could offer where people got the Tracy McCubbin experience, but I don't have to do it. So it Joe: So. Tracy: Was a way to go vertical. And that was a big learning like, oh right. This is something I can hand off, you know, get my team up to speed on it. And it's a good moneymaker for us and Joe: Yeah. Tracy: It's a really good moneymaker. So it's if you are starting a business and if you especially are sort of a consulting service, what are the services that somebody else can do? But your clients still feel like they're getting you. Joe: Yeah, man, you hit it on the head, it's so hard, they want they want you, you are the brand and it's such a hard thing to break away from and it's such a hard thing to hand over to trust other people. Tracy: Oh, yeah, Joe: Yeah, I get it. Tracy: It's Joe: I get it Tracy: You know, everybody Joe: Now. Tracy: Knows if, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You know, you know, it's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Really been in there and especially we were like, oh, wait, you're like it's a six week wait. And now, like, I don't care. And Joe: Yeah, Tracy: I was like, OK. Joe: Yeah, I know it's explain the moving services. Tracy: Yeah, that's been a big that's been our biggest thing during covid because we were essential workers, that we were able to do it and so I started when I started. This is another great entrepreneurial lesson. When I started, I just oversaw the move. So I would just take over, become the client, but the movers. And then we started offering de cluttering before people moved. So all the stuff you didn't want to take with you, let's get rid of it, not pack it up. Then we would unpack and organize into the new houses. So it was like, OK, we'd oversee. We get everything to the new house, we'd unpack and organize. And then I was like, wait, why? If we're doing the de cluttering and we're putting things in piles, why don't we just start doing the packing also? So it was another service that I could add that I didn't have to do. So we now did clutter pack, oversee the move and unpack into the new house. And we deal with very complicated situations like going to two houses or we do a lot after people, but people have passed away people's parents. So the grown kids have full time jobs. They can't be here for two weeks. So we'll empty the whole house, get everything shipped across the country. And so it's been a great. So that was another way to realize to go vertical. Right. Joe: Skep. Tracy: Here's another service I can offer. It doesn't take my time. It dovetails perfectly, we're declaring. So we might as well pack anyway. Know I bought a 17 foot truck. I hired a couple of expert packers and it's been a great part of the business. So I always invite people from my own experience to like, what's the what's the thing that you're outsourcing that could you move it in the house and make it part of your vertical? Joe: Yeah, yeah, it's such a great service because there's a huge gap there, there are great moving companies and they will provide Tracy: Oh. Joe: The services to pack stuff up, but it's just merely taking what's in a cabinet and putting it in a box and taping it up. There's no rhyme or reason. So when you get to the new property, you're like, where is this and where is it back? And you're moving Tracy: Yeah. Joe: A box from that landed in a bedroom that should have been in the kitchen and all. Tracy: And Joe: It's. Tracy: Look, I work with I work with moving companies all the time, I you know, they're amazing at what they do. Those teams work so hard. I have great relationship, about three or four moving local while I have about six and Joe: Mm Tracy: Everything. Joe: Hmm. Tracy: They're fantastic. But the story I always tell when people are like, well, why should I hire you as the movers? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: We're a little more expensive them and not much. Ten dollars an hour. And I tell the story of a client of mine who was a musician when on tour movers packed all our stuff up, put it in storage. We unpacked for her. And it was it was I unpacked a box and there were literally like a year old half-Eaten Sarcone and a Starbucks coffee. Joe: Oh. Tracy: And she was like she was like, oh, that's where that where the movers just pack everything Joe: Like, Tracy: In sight. Right? That's what they do there Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Based on time, their speed, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: They're doing it. So for us, we go in, we did clutter, we pack in an organized manner so that everything goes in room. So in a way, I tell people it feels like a more expensive service, but we actually save you on Joe: Mm Tracy: The other Joe: Hmm. Tracy: End Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Because it's super organized. We love it. It's one of my favorite favorite and especially the sounds so strange to say, but helping people after a family member has passed away Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Is it is one of my favorite services. It's so hard. It's so emotional. It's heartbreaking when the liquidation company comes in as your child is not worth saving your coffee cups, are they? They are. It's heart breaking. So to be able to honor the legacy of a family, deal with the, you know, not not pretty part. It's just it's one of my favorite things that we can do for people, Joe: Yeah, that's Tracy: Really, Joe: Really cool. Tracy: Is. Joe: So we can talk about that next sense, you kind of moved into that and then we'll get to the last one. So let's talk about the state. Kicklighter because Tracy: Yeah. Joe: That to me is that along with the other one, which is the senior downsizing, to me, those are both very, very sensitive type situations. Like you said, there's emotions that are involved in and these two things. So how do you deal with that? Tracy: You know, for me, it's I view it as such an important service. I know how difficult it is. I've had to do it for both. My grandparents like to I just know that it really providing a service that not many people do. And we my company is very special. There are a lot of organizing companies out there, but there's not I have been in this business longer than anybody. I, I know what's valuable. I know what's not valuable. I have the sensitivity. Everyone who has worked for me. We're all a little we're all a little damaged. We all have a little trauma in our childhood. We all have something to draw on. We've all been caregivers to family members. So we have so much respect. I just feel so honored that a family would trust us for this. And we just did a family. There were four children. Three of the children were on board. The parents lived into their 90s and it was taught it was time Joe: No. Tracy: For them to go. And there were three of the children were on the same page and one was an outlier and that that one person was making it very difficult for everybody else. And so to be able to step in and a little bit be the bad guy like these, these books aren't worth anything. Yes, they are. It is. It was like, OK, well, let's get the appraiser in. And then the appraisers, they're not worth anything. Joe: Right, Tracy: So being Joe: Right. Tracy: Able to sort of draw from my Rolodex and and my experience, like I've donated I've donated thousands of sets of China. It's not worth anything. I'm Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Sorry. I'm so sorry. It doesn't mean that your holidays when you were growing up weren't important. It doesn't mean that you have the memories that you have. And if you love that China and it brings back those memories, keep it. But if you are keeping it because you think it's the family fortune, then we're going to have a different conversation. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So I just feel so honored to be a part of it. I've met such interesting people and when this steps into the senior downsizing, when we move seniors from lifelong homes into smaller places, a lot of what we're facing when we declare in these phases is our own mortality, right? Oh, right. We're going to die someday. You know, did my life matter if I don't have the staff? Did I make an impact? So it's very I just feel very, very, very lucky that I get to be a part of this process with people. I hear amazing stories. I met amazing people. We always approach it with love and laughter and humor and respect. And it's just a nobody. Nobody does this. Nobody does this. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: I Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Know Joe: It's Tracy: I Joe: A Tracy: Get Joe: Great Tracy: Phone calls Joe: Service, Tracy: All the time. Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: It's Tracy: It's Joe: So Tracy: It's. Joe: It's tricky, it's emotional and elderly people become a little bit they don't trust people. They don't know you're in their house Tracy: They Joe: Or. Tracy: Shouldn't, Joe: No. No. Right. Tracy: They Joe: Yeah, Tracy: Shouldn't, Joe: Right. And so Tracy: They shouldn't. Joe: That's a tricky balance. Tracy: We are one of our favorite things. We just did it last week. We've said we're now we've been working for so long, we're now helping parents of clients. Right. So kind of my mom died. I went to Nashville to help. I went to New York and doing that. But what we've been doing, a lot of which I love, is moving someone into an assisted living or community. So we like it. Like we feel like we're on a TV show. We're like, OK, we've got 12 hours until we get the apartment all set up so that when they're making the move, the drive from the old and they get to the new, their artwork is hung up. Joe: Oh, Tracy: The TV's Joe: That's cool, Tracy: Working, their bed is made Joe: Yeah, yeah. Tracy: So that they walk into this new experience with familiarity. And we love it. We're like running around sweating like they would do it, do Joe: Yeah, Tracy: It. But Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Then they walk in and they see their stuff and it's home. They're not stepping into boxes everywhere. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So this is this is it's my favorite part of what we I mean, I love everything that we do, but this one's really that's really important. Joe: That's very cool, just the way you describe. That was awesome. A couple of questions out of the way of the business. And then I want to get into the book and then I want to get into Tracy: If. Joe: The chair, the organization, and we're running out of time because this is I love this, but Tracy: It's great, Joe: It's Tracy: It's great. Joe: So if somebody wants to work with your company and in a sense you're based in California, let's just say somebody here in Arizona, I wanted to hire you to come in and clean out my crotch. How does somebody work with you that is in like how do you work in other states with people? Tracy: Yeah, we do it know we pay our rates, they just cover travel costs so we can make it sometimes. Sometimes if I'm in other cities, like in New York, I have two women who I can subcontract to sometimes all subcontract. I'll go myself and maybe bring one of my people and then subcontract to try and use the local companies that do that. I have I'm getting a pretty good network. I mean, I'm very I have very high standards, Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: So I'm pretty I need somebody to be tried and true. But I can I can make it work. But yeah, it's just it's the same rates. It's not more it's just the travel cost. So Joe: Perfect. Tracy: A lot of times when people they're realizing like, oh, it's actually, you know, the other thing I've started to do for clients to if they if they I got a client who had to go to Florida and they just didn't have a sister, their mom passed away. They didn't have the means to pay my travel costs. So I actually helped interview local people for him. So I'll do that for my clients. Like, let me let me make the first phone calls. Let me have the conversation. And I just because I'm I'm very mama bear about my client if I want Joe: The. Tracy: To and I want to just go to anybody. Joe: Perfect. All right. And you scared me for a moment because you almost sound like you're bleeding into my my last thing about the business, which is the virtual dcluttering. So how do you handle that? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Is that like Tracy: You Joe: A Tracy: Know, Joe: Face time walking around with an iPad? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Show me this Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Room. Tracy: Yeah, yeah, we do. So the virtual declaring, it's been a bit of an experiment to make it work. And what I've found is that we it's it's we have to set very specific goals. So oftentimes we break it up into half an hour sessions. One session is about right. Here's what you're going to get accomplished. Here's less paperwork. You have these four boxes of paperwork. What are you going to do with them? I don't as much sit there and sort of go through things with them. It's more about helping them come up with a work plan, what the traps are going to fall into, then a period of time, and then we come back and go over it and they ask me specific questions about what they got stuck at. So it's Joe: Got. Tracy: Really almost the virtual it almost becomes a little bit more time management focused help you come up with a work plan. How can you get it accomplished? I also have I have a private Facebook group called Concreter Clever with Tracy McCubbin. It's a free Facebook. I go live pretty much every Wednesday and people can that's a really great it's a very supportive community. Everybody's read my book. We're all so sometimes people would join their and the group will help them. So that's that's great. They're like, OK, it's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: A lot of accountability this weekend I'm going to tackle. And that's what the virtual turned out to be. Two is a lot of accountability. Joe: That's great. OK, cool. OK. The book came out in 2019 called "Making Space, Clutter Free" and you can get it on. I know you can get it on Amazon. I think I saw two other Tracy: Indie Joe: There was an Tracy: Bound. Joe: Indie Tracy: I think Joe: Band Tracy: It's indie band. Joe: Of. Tracy: Yeah, I send people to either Amazon, there's a really great website called Bookshop Dawg Joe: Ok. Tracy: And it connects all the independent booksellers. So you it's a clearinghouse. And so if you don't want to give the man who just went into space more of your money, bookshop dog is a great way. It's available on Kindle. It's available ebook. It's available as an audio book. I narrated Joe: Oh, great. Tracy: A lot of. Yeah, it was great. A lot of libraries have it. They did a really big push. So your local library has it and it's great. It's great. It's doing really well. It got to be an Amazon bestseller and it's an evergreen book. It is not going out of style, Joe: That's Tracy: So. Joe: Awesome, yeah. The reviews Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Are great. Tracy: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Tracy: So making space clutter free. The nice thing about it is we really delve into the emotional part so very deep about the emotional part. And then there's an actual work plan, how you tackle the house room by room. So people are really it's just I'm very, very happy with that. And I'm in the process of writing the second book called Make Space for Happiness. And it's a it's about why we shop, why we overshot the holes in our lives that we're trying to fill by shopping. Joe: Mm Tracy: So Joe: Hmm, Tracy: It's a little Joe: That's called. Tracy: I love it. I love it. But it's going to be a little controversial. Joe: That's Tracy: I Joe: All right. Tracy: Feel like I feel like I feel like that man who just went into space is not going to like what I have to say. But, you know, Joe: Well, I like to think about Tracy: You. Joe: The closet that I saw one thing and one thing out, right? Tracy: Yeah, Joe: That's awesome. Tracy: It's very practical, it's very you know, there's a lot of oversimplified I think that part of the feedback I always get and I know from growing up with the parent that I did it. And also some people understand a lot of times reporting is generational. So Joe: He. Tracy: I my I had two other a great uncle. It's a genetic thing. It's a it's an anxiety disorder. I think it's a bit of an addiction. I think that people who hoard get a big dopamine hit when they find something. So there's just a lot of empathy. I'm not judging. I'm not shaming. I under I understand how hard it is. And Joe: Yet. Tracy: So people really respond to that. Joe: Yeah, OK, cool. One last question, I thought it was really cool you had the Clutter Block Quiz on your website and you talk about blocks, right? Clutter blocks. Tracy: Yep, Joe: Can you real Tracy: Yep, Joe: Quickly, can you just. Tracy: Sure, and this is the crux of the book. So basically a clutter block is an emotional story that we tell ourselves about why we can't let go of what we don't want or need. So it's so there are seven of them. And I witnessed this from working with clients for so long. I was like, this is that story again. This person is that same story. This is that. So it ranges everything from my stuff keeps me stuck in the past. Sentimental things that you can't let go of, the stuff I'm avoiding, which is your paperwork, which is me. That's my clutter block. I'm not worth my good stuff. So not using your nice things, saving Joe: Mm. Tracy: My fantasy stuff for my fantasy life. Oh, I'm going to become a rock climber. I'm going to knit, I'm going to buy all that stuff for this stuck with other people's stuff. And when in the book and in a Facebook group, I talk about it when you identify you're like, oh, this is a thing. The perfect example. Last Clutter Block No.7, the stuff I keep paying for, this is storage unit. You bought this stuff and now you're paying to store it. And when you see it that way, like, oh, I'm paying to store stuff I never use. Oh, it's like it's it's illuminated, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tracy: You're like, oh, this is why it's not I'm not a bad person. I'm not a bad person. This is just, you know, we're humans. We're meaning making machines. Right. We just rains on your wedding day that all that stuff. So we make all this meaning out of the stuff that's meaningless and it gets a hold on us. So the clutter blocks are really effective for people really, really affected, like, oh, this is real. This is you know, it's not just me. It's Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Not just me. Joe: Yeah. All right, awesome. Before we move off of your business to the organization you're part of, because I think it's really important to talk about real quick. You've made incredible headway in the press, like being on the shows that you're on. And for the entrepreneurs that are listening to this, you could have just been another de cluttering company in California, right? You've said it yourself, Tracy: Amy. Joe: But you obviously you have a unique approach with all the different services you're passionate about. It's very clear by talking with you and everyone will pick up on that. When they listen to this and when they watch the YouTube video, they're going to tell that, yeah, this is this woman is really has the integrity and really loves what she does and it speaks to her. How did you get the the press and all of the stuff that has catapulted you to be the expert in this field? I mean, it's it's amazing, Tracy: Yeah, Joe: The Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Shows Tracy: Yeah, Joe: You've been on and the podcast Tracy: It's Joe: And. Tracy: Yeah, it's great. So I think the thing the first thing that I got really clear about was a couple of things. One, people need content, TV shows need content. Morning news means content, podcasts meet. Everybody needs content. So even if you have a product or a service, you know, there's a mission statement behind it. There's a reason that you're doing it. So what's the what's the story that you can tell about why your service is going to help? Or how can you tell your mission statement and not even mention your product? If you can talk about the service or what you're offering, you know, how can you talk about it without even mentioning it, then that's the content and people need it. And I'll tell you, you say yes to everything. I have been I mean, my favorite story is like morning news show in Temecula, California, like sandwiched in between the October Fest dancers and the like kid who won the spelling bee, like I said, yes to everything. And I worked on my media training. I worked on the messaging. I really understood that you have to be able to communicate it. And so I just started saying yes. And then it I got a reputation for being good and delivering and I did. I have worked with when the book came out, I did work with a publicist. I found the best person who specializes in non-fiction authors. That's the other thing about PR. If you're going to pay for PR and you sometimes you have to and you're the two things you're paying for someone's Rolodex. So who can they call? Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: Who do they have connections to? And also you need to find the person who understands what you do. Right? So let's say you have a company where you've invented a new kind of pool cover that will save children's lives, superimportant, Joe: Mm Tracy: Needed. Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Don't hire a publicist who works with beauty products. Joe: All right. Tracy: Right. Like really honed down on what you're offering and can that person help it? And sometimes you need to sometimes you need to pay a marketing person. Sometimes you need to pay a social media manager. We can't do it all. So it's really understanding, understanding how valuable those marketing and publicity dollars are. Right. Because they can get expensive Joe: Oh, Tracy: Fast. Joe: Yeah. Mm hmm. Tracy: You can turn around. And I mean, you people are out there and starting to look at that, you know, problems and say, oh, yeah, we have a ten thousand dollar per month retainer. You're like, oh, so what are their goals? What are their goals for you? How can you help? And I always say this. You can't for those kinds of positions. It's like if you have an agent, right? I have a literary agent. Help me with my book. She takes 10 percent of my money. She does ten percent of the work. Joe: Mm Tracy: I Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Still got to do the 90 percent. So you can't dump and run against. Oh, I have a publicist. I don't have to do it. Now you are working in conjunction with them. It's your product. No one's going to care more about your business than you are. So show up. Say yes to everything. You know, like be realistic. It's like I want to be on Good Morning America. OK, well, you start following the October 1st dancers. You just say yes, you say Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Because first of all, it gives you practice, Joe: At. Tracy: It gives you practice and you hone your message. And and this is where the Internet is fantastic. Reach out to podcasts, you know, get really clear about the content you have to offer. Just cold call people, cold email people. Here's what I want to say. Like people that you listen to where the message across, it's the biggest it's the least fun. The marketing and publicity is the least one part about running a business, I think. But the most important. Joe: Yeah, well, you've done great, it's amazing Tracy: No, Joe: And Tracy: Thank you. Joe: Yeah, it's absolutely awesome. Did I miss anything about the business that you would like to talk about before we move on to the organization? Tracy: The only thing I would say is that if you're out there and if you're struggling with your relationship to your staff, don't be afraid to find help locally. Joe: Love it. Tracy: There's lots of people who are opening this business. Reach out to me. I can give you some questions to ask. So don't be afraid to ask for help. Joe: Perfect. OK, one kid, one world. Tracy: Yeah. Joe: It's super cool. I went and I looked at the website, I watched the videos and can you explain what it does? You know, what what the the mission of it is? And then Tracy: Yeah, Joe: I Tracy: Yeah, Joe: Don't want to forget Tracy: So. Joe: After you do that. I want to understand when a volunteer goes, are they just volunteering their time and you get them there and you get them back or so let's start with Tracy: Sure, Joe: The organization Tracy: Yeah, yeah, Joe: First. Tracy: Yeah, so basically, quick story, my childhood friend of mine, our dads, went to law school together. He went to Darfor and he was in the volunteering in the refugee camps and he realized that the bulk of the people in the refugee camps were women and children and that they were setting up schools and setting up little shops, like trying to get normalise as much as possible and realizing, as we all know, that education is the key. So we ate on that trip. He met a Kenyan doctor, a nurse. They told him about this girl's school in Kenya that needed a science lab. The girls couldn't take their exams because they didn't have a science lab. So he said to me, it's twenty five thousand dollars. Want to help me raise that? Let's throw a party. You know, our our peers were all starting to make money and their careers were taking off. So we threw the party, raise the money. We're like, let's just go and see. Let's just go and see what this is. And we went and it was life changing. Joe: Mm Tracy: Here Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Were these girls. And in Kenya, most of them are orphans because HIV AIDS Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: And the desire for education. And so there's a lot of organizations that are curriculum based and this and that. And what we were like were like they don't have desks to sit in. There are no there's no room. There's not. So we started focusing on capital improvements. We built buildings, we built dorms, we put desks, we put bookshelves, we pay teachers salaries. We put nurses in the school. We just do the things that they need to stay open. We never build a school from scratch ever. We know nothing about what the community needs. We get in partnership with a community where a school has already been established. We do not affect curriculum, not for us to say Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: We try and work in schools that have at least a 50 percent girl population because girls education is much underfunded. A big part of what we do is we supplied feminine hygiene products to our girls school because that keeps girls out of school. So we're we work mostly in Kenya and then we have branched out to Central America of Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala. And, you know, it's an amazing it's amazing where we started the same year I started my business. So I did both of those. I think we're up to like twenty six schools we rebuilt. And part of our fundraising model is we do volunteer trips. So we go, for instance, to Central America. We fly for a long weekend. We rebuild a suite. We don't we do the big capital improvements before we get there. And then when we're there, we demolish bathrooms and paint murals and get very, very involved. And for us, what we found is that there's sort of two types of donors. There is the vicarious donors who your friend goes and see the work that the friends do and donate that way. And then there are the people who want to see where the money goes, really make a difference. So when you go on a trip with us, you you commit to raising a certain amount of money when you come back. And we always had our goals. We never operated a deficit. We don't ever take on projects that we can't finish. We're very lucky. Both Josh and I have other businesses that we work for free. We don't Joe: Mm Tracy: Take a Joe: Hmm. Tracy: Salary. So we're like we're at like ninety percent of every dollar we raise goes back. And not that, not that. I don't think that nonprofit workers should not be paid. They absolutely should be. But we choose for us. We choose not to. And it's been it's been great. It's been one of where a couple of years ago, our first round of girls started to go to college in nursing school and technical school. And it's it's really amazing. It's a really, really, really amazing covid has been really hard. We haven't been able to go. I think next spring will be our first trip if everything goes OK. Joe: Mm hmm. Tracy: But it's been a really amazing it's been an amazing thing to be a part of. It's been an amazing thing to be a part of. Joe: Yeah, it was really cool, I watched the video and I saw where there was a person taking Polaroids and then everyone and then the Polaroid was there was a square where the Polaroid would go on the piece of paper and each student had to say, I'm going to be a doctor Tracy: Yeah. Joe: There or I'm going to be a nurse, or it was a radical. Tracy: Well, one of the funny things I get I invented invented this exercise, I was realizing, talking to the girls in Kenya, that because they didn't have parents, so many of them, they didn't they never they didn't know how to make a business phone call. They didn't know how to apply for a job because it's like the teachers are teaching them. But there's not that. So I started to do this exercise where they would be the shop owner and I'd be like another volunteer. And I like I'd be the bad like I wouldn't say, you know, I'd say my name really quiet. I wouldn't shake a hand. And you just did these roleplaying exercises of how to apply for a job. When you realize, like, you have to learn that stuff, you don't know you don't know how to call someone and say, hey, here's my name or walk into a shop or say like, I'd like a job and walk in with confidence. And so now it's like day can't wait. Every time we go, we all line Joe: And Tracy: Up Joe: That's Tracy: And they Joe: Called. Tracy: All get to pretend. And, you know, it's such a it's such an amazing just right to have the self-confidence to get go in there and do that. And so it's very practical and we love it. We love Joe: That's Tracy: It. Joe: Awesome, Tracy: We love it. We can't wait to get back. So Joe: I'm Tracy: If anybody Joe: Sure. Tracy: Out there is listening and want to come on a trip with us, one kid, one world dog, tell me you heard me on here and would love to get. Joe: Awesome. OK, I've taken your time. I've gone over, I apologized, Tracy: It's Joe: But Tracy: All right, Joe. We're Joe: This Tracy: Having Joe: Is Tracy: A great conversation. Joe: This was awesome. So let's give everyone the and I'll put it in the show notes, but the website for your business did clarify. Tracy: Yep, yep, so the website is dClutterfly.com, so a d c l u t t e r f l y dot com. See, this is why you say it Joe: Yeah. Tracy: Out before you name your business. The clutter block places on there. You can sign up for my newsletter. It's a great place to find me. I'm very active on Instagram. So Tracy_McCubbin and then if you are looking for some extra love and support, the private Facebook group, which is called "Conquer Yo

My conversation today is with Josh Carey, co-founder of PodMAX.co, an event that happens about every 6 weeks where business people and/or entrepreneurs are matched up with podcast hosts where they do 3 interviews in one day while also attending an event where there is networking, education and keynote speakers. Josh explains in this interview how this event that they hold quite frequently, is like speed dating for podcast guests and hosts alike. It's an efficient way for hosts to get 3 interviews in the can in one day and for business people and/or enterpreneurs,to get out there and promote themselves, their businesses and tell their story 3 times in one day on 3 different podcasts. This is an interesting interview with Josh as he shares his own journey to exposing himself and his talents and now helping others to do the same. As always, thanks for listening! Joe Get 30% off at The Healthy Place by using code "costello" Josh Carey Co-founder - PodMAX.co Website: https://podmax.co Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/onairbrands/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/onairbrandsLIVE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/onairbrands/ Email: josh@podmax.co Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hey, Josh, welcome to the show. I'm very excited to have you. Josh: Likewise, Joe. Pleasure to be here. Thanks. Joe: Yeah, so this obviously as a podcast or this hits home for me, having someone unlike you that has this this business, if you will, called Pod Max. Right. I guess it's it's also an event. Right. So I need you're going to help me understand Josh: Yeah, Joe: It. Josh: I shall. Joe: I've watched a bunch of different videos and I watched the testimonial video, but I still want clarification. I think you hit it on the head when you said it's like speed dating for podcasters. And that was Josh: Hmm. Joe: That totally was a very clear thing for me. At least brought me to a point where I said, oh, this is really sort of different, but this is what I do with all my guests. So you'll have to you'll have to suffer through this part. Josh: I shall suffer. Joe: We because my audience is mainly entrepreneurs and it's it's me trying to help educate Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Them as much as possible. I always like them to know the back story of my guests. I want to know Josh: Hmm. Joe: Where you came from, where you came from as far back as you want to go, because it doesn't Josh: Mm Joe: It Josh: Hmm. Joe: Doesn't matter to me. It's exciting to figure out the how you develop to who you are today and how you are doing what you're doing today and what was all in between to make this happen. And then from there, we'll get into the depths of tiebacks. Josh: I love it. I shall take you down that journey, then Joe: Perfect. Josh: We'll start we'll start with Current Day. Today, I'm known as the Hidden Entrepreneur, and that's because I spent 40 plus years of my life hiding. I literally showed up in every situation, hiding all of my true talent and ability. Everything that I was really capable of doing remained hidden because I was so desperate to seek the approval of others. Now, what really sucked about this is behind closed doors. I knew darn well what I was capable of doing. So this created a lot of anger, frustration, resentment, jealousy, all that stuff. And the bigger thing is that not only did I want to seek your approval, I was scared so much by the fact that if I were to come forward with something quite good, right. Impressive, even in any regard, you might feel so insecure about your accomplishments and talent and scale, what you may or may not be doing. Right, because we're all just a mirror and a reflection of each other that what it might make you a little upset by what you're seeing and then you might retaliate against me in some form. And I knew my whole life that I just didn't feel strong enough to stick up and stand up for myself. Josh: So all of that made for this recipe of living life that way cut to today. I'm the proud father of two adoring children. I have an eight year old daughter, a six year old son who are my absolute everything. I love playing the role of father. I love being their dad. And early on in their young lives, I realize that I see what's happening here. I'm the child in this circle and I'm the one who has work to do. So I said, guys, keep doing what you're doing. I get it. I can't continue to be this miserable kind of person and have them watch me that way their whole lives. It wouldn't end well. And fast forwarding to, you know, seeing an empty nester. Now, if I was 20 years down the road and they just grew up with that type of father, they'd naturally become that type of person. And in that scenario, there'd be nothing I can do and I wouldn't be able to live with myself. So I said, that's all I need to say. Right. I'm Joe: Yeah. Josh: Going to make them prouder. I'm going to make me proud or I'm going to do what needs to happen. And I started just taking inventory, replacing some of my bad non serving habits with slightly better ones and slowly but surely seeing the positive result in effect of that. And here we are. I just keep stacking those on each other and I've come a long way and still have a long way to go. But I'm very happy and proud with where I am today. Joe: And so what did you do in your past life, let's say that you're now doing what you do. I mean, what was your what was all these things you were doing while you're hiding from the world? Josh: So I got in in eighth grade, I got bit by the acting bug, right? I found that in there was a school audition taking place and I felt like I should audition to see what this was about. And I did. And it was a a drug awareness program, whatever it was. And I got a cast as the comic relief of all things. So I was bumbling around on stage and hundreds of my right, hundreds of my classmates were laughing at me from what I was doing on stage. Now, I knew that they were in fact laughing at me. Right. They weren't laughing with me, but I was I was OK with that because I was getting the attention I was so desperately seeking. So I thought, wow, I will continue to seek out this attention, hopefully thinking this is what I need to fill this emotional void. Right. This external approval is exactly what I need now. Doesn't work that way. It took me a few decades to realize that, but I set out on a path to become an actor and said, I'm going to dedicate my life to this because if I could just get this daily, my life sucked. So I pursued that dream. I wound up spending 15 years in New York as a working actor and filmmaker. Great credits, wonderful era of my life. But again, it didn't really, you know, fill the void. You know, when the curtain comes down, I'm still miserable and alone in the corner, often crying and trying to figure out where my life went so wrong. Josh: So I did that for a while. I had some, you know, day jobs to pay the bills. I taught myself webdesign to keep myself busy when the Internet started rising up in the nineties. And slowly but surely, I just became somewhat of an entrepreneur, not realizing at the time that that's what it was. But I was just trying to make ends meet while I was pursuing my passion. And then I found myself running my own digital marketing agency where I was building websites for an industry and all this stuff. Ten years later, this industry became just like any other toxic relationship we might find ourselves in personally. But this was my business and the industry taking full responsibility. It was on me because I was showing up that way, which is why I was attracting those very people. So I knew that something needed to change. This correlated with the time where me and my children had the talk, where I was the child, and I said, I get it. I know it has to be done. This relationship with the industry and my my work here, it can't continue. It's part of the problem. Let me rip the Band-Aid off. I said I don't know what's next, but I'm going to seek something. I'm going to figure it out. And just like if you're in a bad relationship, you don't necessarily wait until you have another relationship. Josh: You get out and figure it out. And that's what I did. I got out. I said, let me take a few months. Let me take some time, figure out what I want to do, where I want to go and be true to myself for one of the first times in my life. And I said podcasting. I think I felt that I would be good at it and I would enjoy it. And it would create opportunity and I would connect with people because, God, that's all I ever wanted in my life. I said, well, if I do it honestly and authentically, I might finally attract the right kind of people instead of attracting the miserable and getting what I don't want because you focus on it. So I created a brand called The Hidden Entrepreneur and then became that became the podcast. And I started interviewing people. And slowly but surely I started feeling good about it and getting a good response. And it just kept building the confidence. And I was told I was half decent and I certainly started feeling that way, still replacing a lot of my bad habits with better ones, trying to live wonderfully for my children. It all came together. And now here we are. I'm doing some some some really interesting things in the podcast space because of those moments that that got me here. Joe: Right. And that's what's important. That's why I wanted to ask, because, you know, as much as everyone can say, their life went on a certain path and certain things did not go right Josh: Uh. Joe: Or whatever, they all build the person you are today. And so I think probably whatever you're doing with Pod Max now, you're leaning on some of your marketing and, you know, Josh: Exactly. Joe: Your and all the stuff that you did earlier in Josh: All Joe: Your entrepreneurial Josh: Of it. Joe: Life. Right. So it's like you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's this. This is all created to help to create who you are now, to make this next portion of your life excel even more. Josh: Sometimes in the moment, we don't and can't recognize that a lot of acts in retrospect that the game is being able in real time when there's a little bit of a glitch or a detour that you're forced to take or something that's happening that you didn't quite see coming wasn't as you planned. You have to realize, wow, this is probably going to work out for the best. And as you're seeing everything I've spelled out, even my acting and film days to this very moment, I pull a lot from those days how to how to communicate, how to perform, how to create, how to talk on the mic, how to write. All of that is acting and film. And then, like you said, the marketing from the digital marketing, knowing what you don't want on a grand scale to know exactly what you do want. It's all relevant and quite perfect. Joe: Yeah, and it's funny, and you gave it away already, but I was going to ask you where you from? And I was like, he's got to be from New York. I can recognize and I'm from New York. So he's like, he's got to be from New York. And then you said it. You're like. Josh: What did I say, oh, that I spent time there Joe: Yeah, Josh: In New York. Joe: Yeah, and so did I and I and my background is I went to school for music and I Josh: Yeah. Joe: And I landed in New York. I lived two hours north of the city where I grew up. But then I landed Josh: Mayor. Joe: In New York as to be my big time career break Josh: As Joe: In. Josh: A drummer, Joe: Yeah, Josh: Yeah. Joe: Right. And so and at the same time, we all have to go find jobs. And then and then you sort of get steered off a path because you start making money and going, OK, how much do I want to suffer living in this one bedroom apartment and eating mac and cheese every night where Josh: True. Joe: It's just whatever, whatever developed over that time. But we had the same sort of path. So it's Josh: Yeah. Joe: Interesting to hear your story. Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Ok, so you started podcasting and you have a podcast called The Hidden Entrepreneur. How did you make the jump from that to come to being the coach? When I heard you say you're actually a co-founder of God Macs. So where did this idea come from? How did we get to where we are today with that? Josh: In twenty eighteen is when I created The Hidden Entrepreneur Show, and it's still running strong today, over 200 episodes and I in the summer of 2019, I had the opportunity to record episodes of my show at an event. And one of the one of the people that I was interviewing didn't know him prior to this event was Eric Cabral, who's now my co founding partner in Pod Max. I interviewed him for my show and we hit it off and we connected. And after the interview, he said, you know, we're both from Jersey. I have. Which is where I live Joe: Mm Josh: Now. Joe: Hmm. Josh: He said, I have a I have a studio in in Jersey. Once you come out and check it out one day and, you know, we'll see we'll see what's possible. And I said, OK. And then it turns out I never left. Now, what I like to point out is that what what I did just, you know, basically, yes. By design, but subconsciously during that first interview where he was on my show when we didn't know each other prior, was I was already leaning into my full potential, which was quite different from what I did the first 40 plus years of my life, where I spoke about I showed up really small, didn't want to rock the boat, didn't want to make you feel insecure. So I just took a back seat. But then in twenty eighteen, I started figuring out how can I come to the table with the ability that again, I've always known darn well I'm more than capable of doing. And really I believe we're all in that same boat. We all know what we are capable of doing. We just adjust and alter that for so many reasons inappropriately, so more often than not. So I said, I'm going to just start coming out, you know, strongly with what I'm capable of and miraculously, quote unquote, I started attracting the very people who understood that, who liked it, who appreciated it, respected it. Ironically, all the things I wanted my whole life, Joe: Mm Josh: Just Joe: Hmm. Josh: Somebody to appreciate me. How can anybody appreciate when you're being, you know, a weak man, Joe: Yeah. Josh: Which I was. So I thought that if I were to come out powerfully doing what I'm capable of, everybody is going to retaliate against me. And oh, no, I don't even see those people. I only see people like you, like Eric, like people who are like, wow, you know, like attracts like, of Joe: Mm Josh: Course. Joe: Hmm. Josh: So that's that's the amazing thing. So all that to say, I was already able to do what I was doing to get in front of somebody like Eric, for him to recognize something within me because I had already appeared that way. So you have to sort of do the work first instead of like me hoping that somebody can see a glimmer of potential in me and then anoint me capable and relevant to the masses. You know, that doesn't happen. Joe: Right. Josh: So it only happens when you are first putting it out there to attract the good back. So Eric and I started talking and hanging out and we had a very similar vibe and connection, a lot of similar goals. He also came from the podcast space. He has and had his own show. And we just started talking about this idea Pod Max, which started in person in twenty nineteen. It started as a live in person event. We had the studio in North Jersey where we figured we do this one day kind of hybrid event where it's part conference, part workshop and part podcast recordings. So we set up makeshift like a dozen different studios like like little mini areas where hosts can record with guests. And we invited about a dozen show hosts in, sold tickets to the event to high level entrepreneurs and thought leaders who wanted to get their message out by recording on shows we would match them. Thus the speed dating for the podcast industry. And over the course of that day, each hour they would rotate into a new studio area and record as a guest on a different show. And in between those recordings, we would provide a catered lunch, we would provide networking, we would provide training and education, and we would provide a high level keynote. So we had the conference, the workshop feel the retreat and the podcast recordings. We did that a few times and then twenty twenty happened. So we're like, OK, well this is crazy because we're a live events company. What happens now? We had no idea, so he said, can this work virtually? There was only one way to find out. We took that agenda, that format. We sort of reworked what needed to be worked into a virtual format. And since May of 20, 20, which was our first pod, Max Virtual, we've never looked back. We're about to do our 14th 14th virtual event in August. And it's you know, it's one of those things that we we couldn't have seen that coming. Right. We wouldn't Joe: Yep, Josh: Have even looked virtual. Joe: Correct. Josh: So so now it's an eight hour event, which people who don't really know our style will say eight hours virtual. That's crazy. But we hear all the time that it flies by because we've sort of been able to really hone in on making all of those minutes per hour the best they can be. Joe: Right. Josh: And then the entrepreneurs get to record still on multiple shows. We have a keynote. We have training and education. So we know prior to the event we work with the thought leaders to help them further identify, practice and fine tune their message. So when they get to the recording, they feel confident and ready to go. Joe: It's so cool, so how many of these do you do? Josh: We do them about every six weeks. Joe: Wow, and how Josh: Yeah. Joe: Did you figure out the logistics, like I attended a couple virtual conferences and logistically it's very cool because you you don't really miss anything because a lot of stuff is is recorded to playback later and you're not wasting a lot of time on a showroom floor. You're going exactly what you want Josh: Exactly. Joe: Without having to walk around it. But how did you guys figure that out? Josh: Well, it came from the live, and then we we sort of transferred that virtually and we fill the eight hours, it's single track, right, to everybody's in the room going to the same places, Joe: Ok, Josh: Doing the same things. Joe: Ok, Josh: Yeah, Joe: And Josh: It. Joe: What's the number of attendees that you've gotten up to? Josh: We get about 50. Joe: That's amazing. Josh: Now. Joe: It's really cool, and I wasn't sure when so when when we talked about this being sort of like the speed dating for podcasting, there's a lot of podcasters out there who either are looking for gas or they want to be guest on podcast. And Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: I think they need to understand how iPod, Max, differs from those services that are out there, whether it's someone you get this connection with someone and they start feeding you gas or Josh: Yeah. Joe: You get this connection with someone and they keep putting you on different podcasts. Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: I think the important thing is that as a podcast for myself, I get I Josh: All Joe: Haven't Josh: The Joe: Been Josh: Time. Joe: On a podcast, which is kind of funny, but I haven't. Josh: Wow. Joe: But I get a lot of requests either from an agency that that Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Said, hey, we want to work with you with really great guests or just people that find my podcasts and reach out and say, hey, I think you would really like this person. And I have to sort of filter through Josh: Yeah. Joe: What I think fits my audience. I'm not going to accept everyone because Josh: That's right. Joe: It's not fair to the listeners. Josh: Mm Joe: It's Josh: Hmm. Joe: A selfish endeavor for me. And you kind of hit upon it yourself. It makes it allows me to connect with people like you. It allows me to learn so much. But at the same time, I need to make sure that I'm servicing my audience and educating them on what they came here in the first place to see. Josh: That's right. Joe: So when you do iPod, Max, how do you do this matchmaking? How do you figure out that this guest is going to go and sit with this person and do recording and it fits the mold of their podcast or they're the right person? How does that all happen? Josh: Well, we've been lucky enough to do it for a while, and we have a lot turned out to be a core group of show hosts, like the vast majority of the show hosts return over and over again. Joe: Ok. Josh: Why? There's a lot of winwin. There's a lot of benefit. It's really cool for them to get to record three episodes in one day Joe: Mm hmm. Josh: In three different hours, which is a great thing. They also get to network with a lot of high level entrepreneurs and the other show hosts. They get to be right in the room with. We bring three now virtually we bring three keynotes in at a very high level of keynote. So they get to leverage that relationship off. Often they'll reach out to the keynote and then welcome them on their show. So it's just a really great vibe. There's a lot of a lot of personal growth and development built in to the day that you almost don't see coming until you're on the back end of it and you're like, oh, my gosh, it's just amazing. So they keep returning and through that then they become like family, right? Joe: Mm Josh: Like Joe: Hmm. Josh: At every event, the chats, everybody's just excited to see each other again. And it's sort of like old home week. So to answer your question, we've gotten to really know a good core group of the show hosts, knowing who they are, what their businesses are, what their shows are, what their goals are. And with that, we can then do our job. That takes a lot of the matching difficulty out because we know exactly who's coming through that they'd be perfectly matched for and because of the reputation where we've done such a good job prepping the entrepreneurs and attracting the right level of entrepreneurs and training them. Well, we hear all the time from the hosts that they don't even they don't even worry who they're going to be matched with. Joe: Right. Josh: You know, the week prior, you get you know, you get all the contact and bio information, but they're like, I don't even need to worry because I know whoever comes through, whoever you match me time and time again is going to be a home run. So then we we ask the entrepreneur coming through to fill out a somewhat detailed, extensive profile so we get to know them so we can properly match them. Then we just take the two sides and we have a few team members who are specifically dedicated to the matchmaking process because it's you know, it's got to be done right, takes a little bit of time, but we do it and then everybody seems to be happy on the other side of it. Joe: That's really cool, so when I saw on the website there was a apply to be a host, Josh: Mm hmm. Mm Joe: Correct? Josh: Hmm. Mm hmm. Joe: Is that the is that where the people that are going to do these interviews go to become part of TotEx? Josh: Correct, Joe: Ok. Josh: We're always, always open to meeting new potential show hosts for our event. Basically, you fill that out and the most important thing is we have to make sure because we we can't anticipate prior who's going to come through the event. But generally, our show hosts fill a category that can be broad enough in nature where it's an entrepreneur, it's a business show, it's about success, struggles, failures, life stories, growth mindset, that whole concept. A lot of categories fit into that. So as long as you're as long as you could, as long as you welcome guests that fit that, we could most likely start the conversation. And then we have a few other criteria just to make sure that you're relevant to to our whole brand and audience. Joe: So that was you actually hit upon one of my questions, which was what is the variety of hopes that you have at Cognex? Like, I would just give you an example off the top of my head. Would you Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Ever have a. And it sounds like no, the answer is no based on what you just gave me, but that you at this moment there, it's more about entrepreneurial stuff. It's about success. It's about business. It's about things like that's not like you have one of these host who has a cooking podcast. Josh: It's so funny because Joe: Ok. Josh: To know well, yesterday, in fact, it's very strange you said cooking because yesterday a show we received an application from a potential new show host and it was, in fact, a cooking podcast. Joe: Unbelievable. Josh: That's the most yeah, it's the most amazing thing. But I think that to his credit, I think that there was an entrepreneurial spin. Like it's like he says like like I'll welcome chefs and cooks and entrepreneurs. I don't know. So Joe: Restaurant Josh: So there was Joe: Owners Josh: I mean. Joe: Were Josh: Yeah, Joe: Given Josh: Now Joe: A. Josh: Now something like that is going to be a little too niche for us because we can't fulfill. Right. Joe: Yeah. Josh: We don't get that kind of people, Joe: Now. Josh: But we are we do have the in the near future, we're going to start niching these out like pod max invest. Right. Joe: Oh, Josh: And then Joe: Cool. Josh: Every show is about investing in real estate and whatever. And then the people who come through or their pod max health and wellness. And then every show is that and then the audience supports that. But right now it's the first thing. It's entrepreneurial, it's business, it's growth, it's success. It's a life story. It's struggles, wins, failures, which we find a lot of people, even if they fit a specific niche, we help them extract. Let's get your life story out. And that's in. That's how we work with them prior to the event, to really fit a bigger a bigger audience here. Joe: Yeah, it's funny because my life partner, Joellen, and I have a YouTube channel that kind of morphed, we started it when covid hit and it sort of morphed over the year to now be really concentrated on travel. Our goal is to eventually have that the you know, Josh: A Joe: We're Josh: Travel log. Joe: Not young, so we're trying to inspire people of our age to go out and just do whatever you want to do and what's what's your excuse? Right. So we were talking about how some of these YouTube channels are lucky because they are they deal with things that are very current. So these guys that have these Krypto YouTube channels, they can't get out videos fast enough because that things Josh: Mm. Joe: Are changing so quickly. So it'd be interesting if you have a crypto pod, Max, someday and Josh: That's Joe: You could Josh: Right. Joe: Have like 12 crypto experts or I mean host Josh: Yeah. Joe: Having these people on because it's this new frontier. It's just crazy. But it's true that the things that are current, it's easy for those people. That's not so easy for people like us who are just in the trenches every day. Josh: Yes. Joe: But we're in New Jersey. Did you hold this just because. My own curiosity, because I live there as well. Josh: Trenton. Joe: Trenton OK, OK. I lived in Montclair, Upper Montclair, Josh: Oh. Joe: West Orange, even Newark, Josh: Of course, Joe: Even Newark Josh: One Joe: As Josh: Fifth Joe: It when it was starting Josh: Well. Joe: To grow. So. Yeah. Josh: 153 B, I went to Montclair State for a year. Joe: Oh, Josh: Yeah, Joe: That's so cool. Josh: You Joe: Yeah, Josh: Were by Joe: So, Josh: The campus, I imagine. Joe: Yeah, I was I was right there Josh: Yeah. Joe: Trumpet's the jazz club. You remember Josh: Yes, Joe: That? Yes. Josh: Of course, Joe: Ok, Josh: So funny Joe: I know. Josh: Jersey taqiyya. Joe: That's right. So talk to me about the people. So you have the application online for the host and you're obviously looking for those all the time to expand Josh: Mm Joe: Because Josh: Hmm. Joe: What is it? Each each host gets three interviews during that eight hour day. Josh: That's right. Joe: Ok, and then the people that want to attend Pod Max are potentially people that want to be guests be matched up with one or Josh: That's Joe: Two Josh: Right. Joe: Or any of Josh: Mm Joe: Those Josh: Hmm. Joe: Hosts. Josh: Three Joe: Three, three, three. Josh: Up to three Joe: Right, Josh: Up. Joe: Right. And then on the website I saw there was a button to buy. Is it is it to purchase a ticket for the next five max in August? Josh: That is correct. Joe: Ok. Josh: So the revenue and the and the tickets are from the entrepreneur side who want to be guests on the shows, Joe: Got Josh: They Joe: It. Josh: Come in, we train them, we work with them, we put them and match them on the show. So they record. We then, you know, they're in the room for the keynotes and the networking and everybody's happy. Joe: So explain to me, when you say we train them, what does that mean? Josh: We have so we when we first started virtual, we didn't have any sort of built in training, we just saw people coming to the event and the day the event happened and that was that. Then we had some people coming to us that said, you know what, I want to attend because they saw this as a great way to basically click a button, buy a ticket, and they'll be a guest on three shows. Right. How how else can that happen so quickly? And so guarantee that you're going to record in the course of a day and it's done now. You got three under your belt Joe: Mm hmm. Josh: More. We started getting people who in their own right were successful business people, six, seven, eight figure business people at everything from the C Suite on down. But they're coming to us saying, I've never been on a show before, but I want to or I've been on some. But I'm not that good. I need more confidence. I need more need more skill. And we thought, oh, my gosh, we're attracting a wide variety of successful business people who are now trying to break into podcasts, guesting. So we said, well, let's hold a prevent training where prior to the event, which is what we do now, we hold a 90 minute session with all the attendees prior to the event where we work with them in small groups. So they get one on one attention with Eric and me where we really get them going with their story, their message. We we listen to it, we prompt them, we give them feedback. We have them do it again. We give them notes. We say you're missing the bigger point. This is actually your sound bite. This is your message. This is what I'm hearing. And we just poke and prod until they're ready to go. And then they take the week prior to the event to get comfortable and practice and rehearse. And we do that kind of training. Joe: Well, that's very cool, and I think what I found as a as a host is I run into those people when they've written a book Josh: Mm Joe: And now Josh: Hmm. Joe: They want to promote the book. And Josh: Ok. Joe: They know that a really good way to promote the book is to get on as many podcasts as you can to get the message out Josh: Ok. Joe: That they've never been on one. So Josh: There you go. Joe: There you can see that they're a little awkward in having to talk to a camera and you know what I mean? So I find that that's that's a that's a big spot for me. When I get someone contacts me about, hey, we want to have so-and-so on. He's just written this great book and it's going to be released on Amazon in a month. And we'd like to get some sales. And Josh: Uh. Joe: And then you get that person and you can tell that they're just sort of wet behind Josh: Now. Joe: The ears in regards to being a guest. Josh: Yeah. Joe: So. Josh: Right, whether it's a host or a guest, you know, you said you have guests, but certainly, you know, as a host, it's not often as easy as it looks, right. Just because somebody is in front of a camera and has a mic, once you start doing it and then you put and then you're like, OK, this is a podcast. There's a lot of moving parts that you didn't anticipate. You have no clue what to do. And then there's so many things that you don't even know what you don't know until it's too late. And you're like, wait, what am I missing here? Same thing on the guest side. Everybody thinks like, no, I just talk to me, ask me some questions, I'll answer them. No way. Because there's two parts here. There's the technical and then the technique. Right. The technical is all this stuff, how you're framed, how you look, the lighting, the earphones, the microphone. Right. All very deliberate. And then there's the technique. What are your stories? How long are you answering? What's your energy and persona like? What are your sound bytes? Joe: Please, Josh: And we teach Joe: Please Josh: All that. Joe: Tell me that when you do some of this training with these new guests that you actually talk about equipment. Josh: Oh, my gosh, you have to, Joe: It's Josh: Of Joe: Just Josh: Course. Yeah, Joe: A. Josh: Thank you for observing that, because we don't want them showing up to the event because they're representing us and our brand. And it's all right. The next events that are better, they are they'll look good to the hosts and vice versa. Right. So we always require great professional level of host because we want a great host to represent the guests. And that's what makes it so well. So hosts nine times out of ten will already have, especially if they're working with us, they're professional. This is part of their business model and they're in it for the long run. They have a growth mindset. They get it. They're up and running guests. So you're right. Even like the ones that you would expect, like C suite level or quote unquote known famous company executives and employees, it's like they not ever you could assume, but they don't know. Joe: Yeah, Josh: A lot of them just don't know. So, Joe: That's. Josh: Yeah, we we do talk about that. Like you can't use your computer. Might stop with the window behind you, stop with that terrible green screen because half of your face is, you know, see through and it just doesn't work. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, I think the most brutal thing for me is when they have my voice coming out of their speaker and it keeps it keeps wiping out what right instead of it coming in headphones or in ears like I have, it just keeps Josh: Yeah, Joe: Hammering Josh: Uh. Joe: Over whatever when we're talking because it's the feet, it's the loop coming back through the mic. It's just Josh: Yeah, Joe: Brutal. Josh: Yeah, and even the angle, you got the perfect angle, you know, that that's, you know, are you too high, too low? It's it's all right. The technical and the technique, we cover it all. Joe: That's very cool. Well, that's that Josh: Thanks. Joe: Makes me so happy the more we can do that with guess, Josh: At. Joe: The better it will be. Josh: We're doing our part. Joe: So when is Permax? In August. Josh: August twenty seventh, we always have it on a Friday, it started that way and then we continued that way because one of the reasons it makes so much sense now to have it on a Friday, especially virtual, you spend eight hours from 9:00 to 5:00 Eastern again. Believe me, it will fly by. That's my promise. That's the way we make it happen. It's going to fly by no matter if you're a guest or a host. But you've still spent eight hours in the room absorbing everything and recording everything. So we just thought it was it was quite perfect to almost accidentally do it on a Friday, but then keep it it because let's take the weekend to sort of decompress and let it all process. Joe: Sure. Let me ask you the more of a personal question in regards to Josh: Sure. Joe: You with the hidden entrepreneur and you as a host and then as a guest, are you busy being a guest on other podcasts? And are you when you are a guest or are you talking about your show and what you've done as an entrepreneur? Are you talking more about, let's say, Pod Max and what you're doing with that? Josh: So I'm I'm a guest here and now in real time, Joe: Yeah. Josh: So you're so you're asking Joe: Do Josh: When Joe: You do a lot Josh: I'm Joe: Of these? Josh: Out. Joe: Do you do Josh: Oh yeah. Joe: You are you a guest? A lot on Josh: Yes, Joe: A lot of. Josh: Yeah, you ask a good question, though, what we what I do and really what we teach and promote is it's less about what you do and more about who you are, because that's what I think people are going to be attracted to. So I've spent time really honing in on and perfecting and continuing to perfect my story, my messaging, my communication, my positioning. A it's what I do on the business side. Right. So you sort of have to show that you can do what you're claiming to teach. Right. Which I think a lot of people Joe: Right, Josh: Don't Joe: What Josh: Do. Joe: You're asking others to do, right? Josh: Right. So if I can sort of show an example through me and be somewhat good at it, you're going to have more confidence coming along with what product or service I have. So it's in my best interest for a variety of reasons also because I still have some of that. I want the external validation right now. I don't need it, but it always feels good just as confirmation that you're doing something people value. Right. How else do you get that? But the feedback. So by doing something like this, it gives me feedback, my personal feedback and others. So I continue to hone and craft my story and message because it's what I teach and it'll help get my brand and message and story and business out there. Further, I, I talk about where I came from and my struggles, upbringing, and like we touched upon here, how I spent all the time hiding and all of those years led to creating what became the hidden entrepreneur, which then helped lead me into a career deep in the podcast space. But really it's about communication because you can apply it anywhere. You can apply it to your social media videos, to your emails, you know, to your sales calls, to all these stories and messaging still become relevant. So it's all encompassing. Joe: So for the entrepreneurs, again, that would be listening to my show, when you decided to do your podcast called The Hidden Entrepreneur. What was your main reasoning behind that? Josh: Great question, the reason out of the gate was I felt like I needed something to do right. I left that 10 year career running my own digital marketing agency, and I said, OK, what do I want to do with myself now? I didn't have all the answers. This is the important part. I didn't have all the answers. I just got the next answer, which I felt it clearly podcasting. And I said, I'm going to try it. I'm going to do it. I want to do it. I'm motivated to do it. And I think I'd be good at it. Meaning I think that I'll stick with it. And I think that this can really turn into something. I think that I can create this show and then around that show, parlay that into some sort of product or service in some regard that will put me on a path to success that I can live with and support myself with. That's really all I knew. And I knew that the show would give me confidence, right. Just by doing it and showing up each day, I knew that it would give me connection to each individual person. And lo and behold, it's it's it's literally has given me life. Joe: And the guests that you have on that show are entrepreneurs of all walks of life, but are Josh: Correct. Joe: So it's not that you are talking specifically to entrepreneurs who, like yourself, broke out of a shell and decided to do something. Josh: No, Joe: It's just Josh: No. Joe: It's just the name of it. It's something that speaks Josh: Correct? Joe: To your heart because that's Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: How you felt for a long time. And now it's just sort of like my show where we have great guests who are running their own businesses that have gone through the struggles are going through the struggles, have Josh: There Joe: Survived Josh: You go. Joe: 20, 20, all of those things. Josh: Absolutely, yes. Joe: Ok, cool, so then when let me ask you this question that when you are a guest, because I think all of this helps not only all the entrepreneurs that are listening, Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: That I don't have a podcast that don't go on podcasts that don't listen to whatever it might be, Josh: Right. Joe: Which is hard for you and I to understand, because, like, I was at the gym and I constantly having a podcast in my years. But when you are a guest, how do you figure out what your story is? Because you are this you led this life like I did, Josh: The. Joe: Right, with all of these things. And that's sort of like this is a selfish question, because I'm asking because Josh: Sure. Joe: If I was to be a guest on a podcast, Josh: Mm Joe: I'm Josh: Hmm. Joe: Not sure what Joe Costello would show up for that, because I don't there's so much that has happened. But it's not like I like I had Shaun Spawner on my show who summited all of the summits, like the they Josh: Right, Joe: Call Josh: Right, Joe: It the Josh: Right, Joe: I forget Josh: Right. Joe: What it's called anyhow. But he was amazing. He went to Everest, he went to the North Pole, South Pole, did all the summits. And so he has a story to tell and he has a short film that they did. There's people who come on and they have books. And so they've written a book on something very special. And Josh: Yeah, yeah. Joe: What's the story that you tell when you are on a show as a guest? Josh: The past forty six minutes will answer that. But in all seriousness, I I have over time you develop a library of stories that you have at the ready that encompass you and who you are, what you stand for, how you want to stand, why you want to stand for that, how you want to be perceived and positioned in your in your world. So I have a variety of stories that come about that I could explore based on the conversation I'm having. But they all wind up having an overarching theme, a core message, a core value, core stance that I deliver based on the hidden entrepeneur and where I've been and who I am and where I'm going. So you could learn about me so you can relate to me. So maybe you can like me enough to say, I want to I want to get to know this person more, see what else he does, Joe: Mm Josh: See Joe: Hmm. Josh: What he's about, and then we can explore each other's worlds together. So that takes a little bit of time to do, but that's sort of what we do. So if you're asking which I think you're asking, like, how would somebody like you who doesn't yet go on shows, where do you begin? Is that sort of what you're asking? Joe: Yeah, Josh: Like Joe: I mean, I Josh: Maybe Joe: Think. Josh: Right now? Everybody has a story where you you had a a life affirming or confirming incident that we can all write like I don't think I did necessarily, but I have enough of a story to make it interesting, relatable, compelling write. These are all things that are learnable skills, but they do start somewhere. Joe: All right. Josh: So you I read your website. So I know generally about you wanting growing up. You wanted to be a drummer, Joe: Mm hmm. Josh: Right, for the Stones or with the Stones. And so so broadly speaking, even if you started there with like a dream lost, never fulfilled yet, you know, where was the struggle there? I could spend five minutes and really dig into how painful did that get? What were some of the the turn how close did you get if if at all? What were some of those moments when you were behind closed doors in your own head? And then where are you today and how did it all go? Right. How did it all lead? OK, that could be a very compelling story that people can relate to. Of course, not everybody wanted to be a drummer for the Stones, but we all have our own version of that. So that's all you're tapping into, making it intriguing, making it compelling. And everybody has fascinating stories that they can put pieces together with and share them with the people who want to hear it. Joe: Yeah, that's great, I it's just that you think about it and you go and I think a lot of people feel this way, right? They're like, Josh: Nothing happened, right? Joe: My my story is not that interesting. Why should I tell it? And I don't necessarily feel that way. I've gone through a lot of iterations Josh: Right. Joe: And I have a lot of experience. And besides podcasting and our YouTube channel, you know, I run a seven figure booking agency here in Phoenix and Scottsdale. So I'm a successful entrepreneur. But again, this is the selfish thing for me is like I Josh: Yeah. Joe: Like meeting people like you and learning these kinds of things and sharing them before you. And I can help one entrepreneur out there with our show or what Josh: Yeah. Joe: You do with Cognex. That's a great thing, right? If it's just about and that's what I loved about this interview with you, is that you were very vulnerable and the way you spoke about yourself and it and it's refreshing to have someone to do that and not come and go. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I ran I did this and I was running these huge corporations. And then I had all this money and I figured I didn't need any more money. So I decided to start a fight or whatever. I mean, it's just it's nice to hear that you and I went sort of through the same kind of thing Josh: Mm Joe: And Josh: Hmm. Joe: It was refreshing to hear. So I appreciate you doing that. I wanted to say thank you earlier when you were doing it, but the momentum was going. But it was very, very cool that Josh: Great. Joe: You were that real about all of that stuff. So thank you. Josh: You're very welcome. Joe. Joe: So what is the cost for the August next? Josh: We have three ticket levels that you could you could explore on the site generally there between under a thousand, up to two thousand. Joe: Ok, and. Josh: Depending on how you want the experience to go. Joe: Got it and all of that up there, they click on that button and they'll have those choices there. Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Is there a deadline? Josh: Yes, one week prior to the event, tickets, clothes, whatever, whenever you're hearing this, if it's one week prior to the very next event, tickets, clothes, because that's when we have to do the match ups and get all the information out to the attendees. Joe: What's the date and August again? Josh: August 27. Joe: Twenty seven. OK, is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to touch upon? Josh: No, you've Joe: Wow, Josh: Been thoroughly thorough. Joe: That's beautiful. OK, great. So the links that you got work for you in order for people to either contact you in regards to the hidden entrepreneur, contact you in regards to Pod Max, what's the website, you URL, all of that stuff so we can make sure and then I'll have it all in the notes anyhow. But if anybody's listening, I want to I want Josh: Mm hmm. Joe: Them to hear it. Josh: That's great. Well, the business side is Pod Max Dot CEO, and then on the personal side, which will lead you to all kinds of forks in the road that you could explore. It's Josh Carey Dotcom. Joe: Perfect. OK, well, this is been great, man, I really appreciate it. I was excited to hear about Max. I will also check out The Hidden Entrepreneur. I appreciate you coming on here and sharing this with the audience. And hopefully we'll get a bunch of people that will attend and maybe some new host and guest will come out of all of this. But I appreciate your time today, and it's very, very nice to meet you and very interesting to hear what's going on with Max. Josh: Likewise, I appreciate it greatly. Thanks so much. Joe: Thank you, man. I'll talk to you soon.

  Tim O'Brien along with his wife Becki, have created a unique vitamin, supplement and nutrition store that is more about helping people than it is about margins and commissions. As Tim says" Souls before sales!"   It was a pleasure sitting down with Tim to learn more about The Healthy Place and what products and services they have to offer.   After Tim educated me, I'm definitely going to lean on him and his team in the future, to help me make better and more educated decisions when it comes to my health.   I hope you enjoy this episode and you walk away with at least one snippet that either helps you in your entrepreneurial journey or with you health in general.   For 30% off, please use our affiliate link as it helps us to generate a little income to produce this podcast...thx so much!   https://findyourhealthyplace.com/?rfsn=5901087.08b0f6   Thanks for listening!   Joe   Tim O'Brien Founder - The Healthy Place Website: https://findyourhealthyplace.com/ Website: https://livelyvitaminco.com/ Website: https://wildtheory.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/applewellness/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thehealthyplaceTHP YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYQVVKB58mGd_YgxAL0LMGA/videos LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/apple-wellness-the-healthy-place/about/ Email: tim@findyourhealthyplace.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Tim: My guest today is Tim O'Brien, the founder of The Healthy Place, an e-commerce store for healthy products. They also have for brick and mortar locations, one in Madison, Wisconsin, one in Fitchburg, Wisconsin, one in Middleton, Wisconsin, and one in Sun Prairie, Wisconsin. Tim's passion is health and wellness, and he has spent the last decade sharing his passion with the world on a personal side. He is married to Becky and together they have three children. In this conversation with Tim, I expressed how much health and wellness is important to myself and how convoluted the marketplace is and very difficult to trust who you buy from and which products you buy. I was excited to have Tim on the show so that I could learn more about the difference in what the healthy place offers over buying products at other places like GNC, Walgreens, the vitamin shop and obviously Amazon.com. So sit back and listen to the education that we get from Tim on how to buy better and healthier products in the health and wellness space. Joe: Hey, Tim, welcome to the show. Tim: Hey, hey, how you doing, buddy? Joe: I'm doing great, man, happy, what is it? Wednesday, I lost track, I just got Tim: Yeah, Joe: Back into Tim: It's Joe: Town. Tim: Hump hump day of the week, man, and Joe: Beautiful. Tim: I'm doing this to say thank you for giving me a chance to be on your show. Man, this is cool. Joe: Yeah, no, that's my pleasure, as as I mentioned before, we actually started this that I have, you know, I know that literally health is everything. Like you can have everything in the world that you ever, ever wanted. And without your health, it's just, you know, it's it's unfortunate because I know people go through things that had nothing to do with them not being healthy. They just got delivered a bad hand, Tim: Yahav. Joe: You know, so that's a different story. But those of us Tim: Jerome. Joe: That can make sure we stay healthy, there are things that we can do. But before we get into all of that, and as a lot of my listeners for the podcast and the viewers of a YouTube channel, now, I'd like to get the back story because a lot of the people who listen to the show are my hope is that these entrepreneurial spirits that are trying to figure out what they want to do are there in the midst of doing it. And they they need ideas from people that are being successful doing it. So I would like to go back as far as you're willing to go back to allow myself and the viewers to understand how you got into what you're doing today. What Tim: I love Joe: For? Tim: To share that. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, like what triggered the fact that you're now in this world of, you know, Tim: Supplements, Joe: The health world Tim: Natural Joe: And. Tim: Alternatives, Joe: Yeah, Tim: Yeah. Joe: Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to hear that and then we'll get in, Tim: I'd love to. It's Joe: Ok. Tim: A cool story, I kind of like telling it because it's just cool to see how things can work together to sort of bring you to the place that you're at. And it's sort of confirmation in some different ways. So I love to share it, man. I'd be happy to do so when my when I was like five or six years old, my mom fought through thyroid cancer. And I remember her like going through the chemo radiation and losing the hair, like seeing her at the hospital. I have four siblings, so just a lot of fear in the home, worried about mom. And then I remember this time where she came home and she was sort of like excited and sort of like filled with a little bit of hope because she had gone into this health food store in a little town called Muskego, Wisconsin, just this tiny little town that had a health food store. And she talked to this guy named John for like an hour and a half. And John shared with her all these natural alternatives that had some good science and some good reason to believe that it could help her in her process recovery, treatment of the thyroid cancer. And so she would like go in there like once a week, whether it was a refill for some supplements or whether it was some more education, because there was a lot of literature that this guy handed out as well, like books that he gave her. Tim: And I would go with her. And through this whole process, she she was benefited quite a bit from these natural alternatives that helped her and her recovery process. So I remember hearing about that as a little guy. And through that process, she got a job as a manager at this health food store. And she was there all the time, 40, 50 hours a week kind of thing. And us kids were home schooled. So we would go with mom often sitting in this back room of this health food store, doing our math problems, doing our schoolwork. And I watched over the years these testimonies produced of people coming in with chronic pain, depression, sleep issues, other folks that battled cancer, that my mom held their hand through the process, educating them. And so that was like my whole upbringing. And it really got into my DNA that there is natural alternatives out there that work and the general population just doesn't know about them, because the way our medical system set up pharmaceutical medications, you know, we have some of the best doctors in the world. And, you know, you go to them, you get a prescription, you don't Joe: Mm Tim: Necessarily Joe: Hmm. Tim: Get a natural alternative recommendation. So I got a bit passionate about that in my late teen years. So I got a job at a GNC franchise and worked for the owner who invited me to move out to Madison, Wisconsin, to manage some of his GNC stores after a little while. So I was like, man, OK, my boss thinks I'm good at this. I really enjoy helping people, encouraging people. I just happen to like like people in general. So it was it was sort of a fit. Like I got this passion for this natural alternative thing. I feel like I'm helping people. I'm impacting the world. I want to make a difference. And I was managing these GNC franchises in Madison, Wisconsin. Well, there was a corporate takeover, dude, in twenty seven where everybody lost their jobs, like corporate took over these six franchises that my boss owned. And it was like, OMG, like, what am I going to do now? And so I determined, you know, hey, I want to do something. And that's natural alternative space. I have always been sort of passionate about business in general. I had like three paper routes when I was 11 and I hired my sisters for a quarter a day. I was making bank Joe: Right. Tim: And I was so I tried a network marketing business for a little while that was suppliments and that was brutal. Multi-level marketing can be really hard. And I was like, OK, I don't want to go that route. Maybe I should open my own health food store. And at that time I had just met dating, married Becky, my wife. So we're prayerfully like thinking through this. Should we do this, put the house on the line, open up our own health food store and risk everything. And we decided to take the plunge. So our first brick and mortar store, 2010, was in a town called Fitchburg, Wisconsin, which is right outside of Madison, Wisconsin. And then twenty fifteen, it was store number two in the Madison area and then twenty nineteen with stores three and four. So that was going well. We then moved towards ecommerce where like, hey, if we're making an impact and a difference here locally, which is really exciting, we really enjoy it together. We work as a team like let's let's hit the nation. That sounds fun. And so we started to see a little bit of success there, especially ones covid hit of last year because our in-store traffic took a hit. So our pivot as a company, like a lot of smart companies, was, let's focus on e-commerce. And so that really helped us talk about a blessing in disguise, really helped Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Us figure out the e-commerce space a little bit. So really exciting. In December, January of this last year, we got our little warehouse. So now we have a warehouse in Madison and we're shipping packages out all over the United States. And that's the story. And the mission is about impacting, empowering and educating as many people as we can to just like, learn, grow and create a lifelong foundation of health and wellness. It's like a fanning a flame. You know, somebody already just has a little spark. You know, they're putting the cigarette out outside my store, throwing the McDonald's bag in the trash and like, I need something for my chronic pain all the way up to the health enthusiasts. And no matter what, to me, it's so encouraging to just fan the flame of someone's health and wellness. Because you said it earlier, life is a gift and people need to remember that. Joe: Yeah, and so have you always, based on the background of sitting in that store with your mother and seeing what the proper nutrition and supplements and things like that did for her? Did you always pretty much lead a healthy lifestyle? Tim: Funny is Joe: Don't Tim: No. Joe: Tell me you're a fast food junkie. Tim: No, I wasn't. Yeah, I was, and I always felt very bad if I was going through that fast food line, but my diet really didn't really take a huge impact until I married Becky. So for whatever reason, I would I knew a lot about supplements, really passionate about natural alternatives. But I was I was not the guy who is eating ultra clean, raw, organic, clean. I was like, OK, I'm going to eat a basic diet cleaner than most know what kind of excuses that. And then I'd lean on supplements for nutrition. And so when I met Vecchi, this is two thousand eight, she's like, wow, this doesn't even make sense. Like you can't go eat at pizza, frozen pizza, you know, and then go take your supplements. And so she really convicted me. And it's been a pretty cool team because that's always been her passion is very clean eating. And she didn't understand or know about the supplement natural alternative thing. And my passion has always been for my mom's story of natural alternatives and supplements can change a life. And so then getting married and working together as a team to educate Madison and our social media platforms and on YouTube, it's like there has to be a marriage between nutritional deficiencies, making sure we don't have them eating well, eating clean exercise. So we should work together. And I've improved since meeting, Becky. Joe: Wow, so are you actually telling me that she was already before you guys even met, she was interested in this sort of thing or she was she was Tim: Yeah. Joe: A healthy, clean eating person. Tim: Yes, she was Joe: Wow. Tim: A health enthusiast, yeah, I mean, just health, and that's part of what drew me to her is like, man, this girl's got discipline, like extreme self-control. For me, that's been an area of struggle, just like in general, like discipline waking up early. I'm the guy that would, before I met Becky, like stay up till one and then sleep till nine till I had to quit, get to work. And, you know, he's like, man, we got some work to do. But, yeah, she sure inspired me and a few of those areas. Joe: Ok, so without prying too deeply then, because now you're really piqued, my interest is the fact that you guys are lying so well. How did you meet? Tim: Yeah, so we there was like a young adults meeting through it, through church called Metro Believers Church in Madison, Wisconsin, you know, I'm a Christian, she's a Christian, and in my early twenties, it was like, hey, I really enjoyed finding people like minded. And I think in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm searching for a life, you know? So I would go to a couple of these different churches, young adult ministry meetings, whatever, 20 something groups. And we just started hanging out. So it was like a group of like six or seven of us. And I was about six months in. I pulled her aside one day after church and said, I still laugh at what I said. I said, Hey, Becky, I've taken a shining to you and I'd like to continue on to marriage. And she's like, oh my gosh. Like, OK, I'm kind of like you, too. It was weird way to ask, but OK. Joe: It's also that's Tim: Yeah, Joe: Old school, Tim: I don't do it right. Oh, yeah. Joe: But also Tim: Oh. Joe: All right, cool, well, that's that's great. So how did you change or why did you change the name from Apple Wellness to the healthy place? Tim: Yeah, really good question, you know, Apple Wellness was a good name, you know, in the sense of like Apple a day keeps the doctor away and we just had too many people thinking we are the Mac Apple store. So I literally get calls, at least weekly, Joe: Wow, Tim: And Joe: That's so subtle. Tim: At least I know, and then I'd see my employee across the way and he'd be talking to somebody and he'd be like, well, try turning the phone off and then turn it back on, you know? Joe: Oh, my Tim: So Joe: God. Tim: Especially after he got the e commerce thing going, I started, Becky, as the graphic designer and kind of branding expert within our company for a long time. She's like the Apple word's taken. That's just gone. And I should have consulted with her a little bit more before we chose the name. Joe: Uh huh. Tim: And so she's always kind of wanted it changed. But then I found out that Apple, the company, has an Apple wellness program Joe: Oh, Tim: For employees Joe: Of. Tim: Like it's trademarked. I mean, so I figured it was just a matter of time before I end up getting some sort of litigation letter from Joe: Yeah, Tim: Apple. Joe: Yeah, well, OK, that's interesting. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So you stole one of my questions, but it was perfect because it was actually in line with what you were talking about. But I want to go back to it because Tim: Sure. Joe: It's important, again, for like the entrepreneurs that are listening to this and what we just went through with covid, you talked about shifting. They're not shifting, but literally adding to what you've already established. Right. So you were Tim: You. Joe: You were a retail store, people walking in foot traffic. That's what you counted on to make a living. Right. So when covid hit, obviously, everyone stayed home. So there goes all the foot traffic. So did you already have the e commerce portion of this set up before this happened when you said it was a blessing in disguise? Were you already ready to go the moment like that? Tim: Really Joe: The Tim: Good. Joe: You know, Tim: Yes, Joe: The doors. Tim: Yes and no, I Joe: Ok. Tim: Mean, it's like we had the website, we had the ability to set up ship products out. We had maybe three hundred out of the four thousand products that we have in our stores on the site. So we were ready in certain ways and then not ready for a lot of things. And we had no idea on the digital side of marketing, Google ads, Facebook ads, SEO optimization, email marketing. We hadn't done text messaging. We hadn't done very much of that, very basic and each one of those areas. So it was all of a sudden like pedal to the metal once March hit, where it was like, OK, we have some of these basic fundamentals. And I always tell a business owner like you, if you don't already, you have to have a website like I mean, covid showed us all that pretty quick, like Joe: Yeah. Tim: Have to have a website and you can get free ones are very inexpensive. Wick's dotcom. I'll tell business owners, like even if you're not a photographer, don't don't try to be don't don't get some real basic a white posterboard. Put the product right over it. Just take a picture by a window. Don't don't try to get real clever with it because Vecchi tells me that it can end up looking really bad if Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: You're trying to do so. Basic things like get a website, get a social media, you know, ask your grandkid if you don't know how to set one up sort of thing. So we had all the basics, but then for us it was like, OK. Let's get live chat on our website, because we are one of our difference makers, is consultations Joe: Huh? Tim: With we change lives because we ask questions and we figure out the best products and forms and brands for their specific issues, problems. So let's get a live chat on our website so we can have those conversations. Let's get free shipping. Let's make it really easy. Even if we lose money on maybe one out of five orders, let's just like make it easy, reduce friction in any way that we can. Let's get on Google ads and Facebook ads. So we hired a digital agency for that and it's pretty cool. A year later, we had 30 percent overnight of our foot traffic was just gone once we were able to stay open, thankfully. But that 30 percent in one year's time, we were able to build that on our e-commerce platforms. We were able to replace what was lost. So I'm still head spinning, so thankful for my team able to bring that together because it's quite the operation and it takes a lot of work. Joe: Yeah, did you did you keep the stores open themselves or did you? Tim: We did Joe: You did OK. Tim: Not. Joe: Ok, Tim: We Joe: And Tim: Were Joe: Was it. Tim: Scrambling in the beginning of if we could be classified as essential or not, and my belief is that the immune system is something that can really be strengthened. I'm more passionate about terrain versus the germs so we can strengthen our terrain, strengthen our immune systems, both defense and offense. I mean, there's incredible science behind simple nutrients like sand, mucus from elderberry. The University of Sydney showing the prevention which with elderberry prevention of viruses entering the cell. I mean, it's some pretty cool science. So at the beginning of the covid thing, it was like, OK, I'm not going to tell anybody I can cure or prevent Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Whatever, but I'm sure as heck going to yell it from the rooftop that you can strengthen your immune system and a strong immune system. Strong health is the best defense against any disease, virus, sickness anywhere. So I got pretty passionate about that a year ago. Joe: Cool. Yeah, that's great. So I'm normally pretty good at not bouncing around, but in this case, I want to go back to when you decided to do this. You know, obviously when when someone gets released from a corporate environment and they're like, oh, my gosh, I don't have control over my own destiny because these people Tim: The. Joe: Just literally rip the rug out from underneath me, which is another thing that a lot of entrepreneurs know because this is how they got to where they are there that happen to them. Like I'm not letting someone else dictate how my life is going to turn out. Right. So Tim: Yeah. Joe: But what's really crazy is I don't know if it if in Wisconsin or the places where you have these stores, obviously we know that you already brought it up at GNC is a big brand around the country. There's also where we are. There's the vitamin store. Right. Are the stuff that one of those Tim: Yeah, Joe: Is a vitamin Tim: Yeah, Joe: Shopper. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So there's a lot of these places. So it's almost like you saying you and Becky going, oh, yeah, we're going to create the next pizza delivery like pizza Tim: Now, Joe: Delivery Tim: There's already Joe: Franchise. Tim: 10 right around Joe: Yeah, Tim: The corner, Joe: Right. Tim: So let's see number 11, yeah. Joe: Right. It's we're going to be the next Pizza Hut or Papa John's or whatever. It's just like that that industry Tim: Yes, Joe: That's it takes a lot Tim: It's Joe: Of guts. Tim: So competitive. Joe: Yeah. So when you thought about it, as all entrepreneurs, do, we always come up with these ideas and then we sometimes will kill our own ideas without our spouse or partner or someone will say they'll be the sensible one and say Tim: Right, Joe: That's Tim: Right, Joe: Never Tim: Yeah. Joe: Right. But then you have all these outside influences of of friends and things. And, you know, at any moment, if you would have said, hey, we're thinking of opening up a vitamin supplement, healthy sort of Tim: John. Joe: That people would look at you. But what about all of these major brands? So tell me about how you got over the hump to make to pull the trigger. Tim: Yeah, do that's such a good question and, you know, to identify and I had some friends who opened a coffee shop, you know, and a year later, you know, the coffee shops not doing so well is unfortunate with covid timing and everything. And it's like the supplement thing where you, like, hear this and you're like, oh, I don't know, you know, I wish him well, but I don't know if that's going to work because it's just like there's a hundred of them, you know. Joe: Right. Tim: So I think for me what happened was I worked for GNC for, I don't know, five years. And you start to see good stuff. You start to see bad stuff, you start to see their model. They were purchased by China a while back. So, OK, it's all sourced from China. Forms of nutrients are in their synthetic forms or not so absorbable forms. And you start to learn like, OK, a better product would help this person more than this form of curcumin that's not absorbing into their system from China or wherever, you know, so you start to see where you could make a difference and you sort of start to see your difference makers. So in the supplement world, there's two veins of supplement stores. There's the type of stores that are all about muscle gain and weight loss, you know, weight loss, thermogenic high caffeine, ephedra, and then trim and tracks Hydroxycut. And a lot of that isn't super healthy for Joe: Hmm. Tim: People to be taking steroids or pro hormones, you know, not super healthy. So that's like one vein of supplement stores. And then there's another vein of supplement stores that just they sourced from China. They use synthetic nutrients. It's a little bit more about margin and profit than it is about quality and making a difference. And so that is something I realized pretty early on. And there's not too many supplement health food stores that have a lot of knowledge where you walk in. And there's not just like a high schooler selling the huge jug of protein because it gets a two dollar commission on it, you know. Joe: Yes, I do know. Tim: Yeah, yeah. And there's just not a lot of those out there. So then all of a sudden starting to dream about, you know, originating from my mom's story where somebody really helped her out, where I can really make a difference, because if I open my own stores or store at the time, I can bring in some of the best brands in the world. And pretty quick, in any industry, you find out, good, better, best. And I want to be in that best category. And all of a sudden you're working with some of the best brands in the world and you have the knowledge to be a to guide somebody with Crohn's disease. Let's just Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Talk over asthma on natural alternatives that really work. And if you impact them, if you help them, if you change their life a little bit for the better, now they're going to keep coming back forever. And they tell everybody they know because there's such a vacuum, such a desperate need in this day and age for knowledgeable resources in the natural alternative space. We have a ton of medical, we have a ton of pharmaceutical drugs. We just don't have information coming to the general public on natural alternatives that work. And I get to be that resource in Madison, Wisconsin. So I think that's why we have done well in our brick and mortar stores. And I think that's probably why our attention is higher for our e-commerce is because of that customer service, that knowledgeable resource, that going the extra mile to impact their lives. And I'll give you an example. A lady might hit our live chat from California and say, hey, I'm looking for a V12. Can you give me a recommendation? And then we might ask the question like, absolutely. Here's a couple of options. Do you mind if I ask while you're while you're taking V12? Oh, my doctor said because I have really low energy, I have nerve pain and my mental clarity and focus, I get like foggy brain all the time. So then all of a sudden we say, awesome, OK, I'm actually going to encourage the method in form of V12 because it absorbs much better than this sign form that I first sent you, because I really want you to feel the difference. And since you're feeling fatigued, a little brain fog, I'd love for you to consider this adrenal boost product that has adapted genic herbs in there, like Atul Gawande wrote Rodeo Mocca because ninety two percent of fatigue is related to your adrenal glands. So then you recommend that product. They get it. And this lady two months later goes, Oh my gosh, my energy is a little better, my focus is better, my stress is reduced, which I didn't even bring up. But that adrenal product helps with stress, too, I guess. Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Then all of a sudden they're leaving a review like, wow, that wellness consultant, Ryan, he's one of our our wellness consultants. He really helped me out. And so it's a very different sort of dynamic than a typical GNC store, health food store, vitamin shop type experience. They're Joe: Huh? Tim: All great stores. I mean, I love Natural. Anywhere you can get them. So that was like our difference maker and that's why I thought I could make a go out of it. Joe: Ok, cool. I have so much to ask you now, because you keep opening up like Kansas. So. So before again, I, I want this stuff to be helpful for the entrepreneur. And then then we're going to help the consumers that listen to this. So how when you decided on doing this and said, OK, and let's pull the trigger, how did you figure out the place where you're going to open up store number one, that you do all that extensive, Tim: Oh, Joe: You know, Tim: Good question, yes. Joe: Traffic, you know, what's going to pop up around us? What Tim: You know, Joe: Is, you Tim: Find Joe: Know? Tim: Find a good broker, a real estate broker that can find you spaces. So I had a guy named Kent in Madison, Wisconsin, and he you don't have to pay these guys. You know, it's the landlord that pays them. Joe: Right. Tim: And so as a young entrepreneur about to, like, risk everything you had, that was really important for me to know. Like, I I still am shocked by that. Like, you can just call one of these guys, try to find a reputable one, find somebody that trusts that can make a good referral. And they do all this scouting for you. They send you all the reports and you don't pay a penny. You know, I am a bottom line at the end or something, but you don't pay a penny for this. They get paid from the landlord. So he was bringing me idea after idea after idea. And he had been in the industry for a long time. So he knew the city really, really well. And he was able to guide me through, hey, this has a really strong anchor. The anchor in Fitchburg was Joe: Yeah, Tim: Target. Joe: Yeah. Tim: It was a super, super target. So I was like, oh, learning about anchors are important, Joe: Yeah. Tim: Really important. So I tell you, if you're listening, like, look for some strong anchors, because that's really going to help you for traffic. Joe: And just for the listeners and the people that don't like it, like when they talk about like a small strip mall or a plaza or something like that or even in a in a mall small, an anchor is an anchor store. That is when they go in, there's a really good chance they're not going away like they are a big thing like Target or Wal-Mart Tim: Exactly. Joe: Or Nordstrom or whatever. So I just wanted to clear that up because I didn't know at one point. But I know when you're looking at retail space like that, you want to be surrounded by an anchor store that has been around forever and is not going away. Tim: Yes, and just to further drive that point home, we have for brick and mortar stores and the one that's doing like the worst is the one that doesn't have a strong anchor by it. So just get one with a strong anchor and then look at price points and definitely negotiate. So we had that broker that was able to help us out. He was able to negotiate tenant improvement. Our big deal when you're opening a store, because you you could use money towards the build out and you can ask landlords for that. So if, again, if you have a good broker and you tell them your story, what you're trying to build out, a lot of times you can get a number of things paid for by the landlord because they're about to ask you to sign a five year lease. Joe: Mm hmm. OK. So at this point, the four locations that you have, you are in a lease situation Tim: Yes, all for you Joe: At Tim: And I've Joe: Any Tim: Looked into purchasing. Joe: Ok, so there is yeah, that's my question. It's like when do you pull the trigger on saying, OK, I want to actually start to own some of these buildings are these spaces. And that's a huge job. That's that's really put your Tim: Yeah, Joe: Neck out. Right. Tim: So in all four, I looked at them and each one has a different story, the first one I looked into though, at the Fitchburg location, the buildings were not for sale. So I was like, all this is so cool. So I looked into it and it was seven million dollars for these two buildings because it's in a strong anchor, high traffic area. So it is difficult to buy the spot by the strong anchor Joe: Maha. Tim: Because it really it would have been risking I couldn't I couldn't do it. But then the idea next idea is like, well, maybe I should move locations now that my name is established, if I can buy a strip mall down the way or something like that. So that Joe: Te. Tim: Idea is in the back of my head. But then you move away from the strong anchors. That's Joe: Right. Tim: Been called me back. Joe: Right, cool. See, that was perfect because that was like all of the things that you have to consider and Tim: Right. Joe: It's yeah, that's a tough decision, man. That's a lot of money. Tim: It is, Joe: Yeah. Tim: Dude, I Joe: Yeah. Tim: Know and I have a buddy who owns a dentistry office and he Joe: We. Tim: Was able to purchase his location and it's awesome. He's about to pay it off after ten years. And I'm super excited. So Joe: Yeah. Tim: It is depends on the situation. Joe: Yeah, OK, so now let's get into what I consider in the world that you're in and I'm a huge fan of natural like I is, it's a there's a difference between naturopathic or is. Right. Is that pronounced correctly? Is that they say it Tim: Yeah, Joe: Now Tim: Naturopathic Joe: Or Tim: Medicine Joe: Or homoeopathic. Tim: Homoeopathy yupp homoeopathy Joe: Right. OK. Tim: And integrative medicine is kind of like medical and naturopathy together. Joe: Yep, yep, so Joel and my life partner went through a battle of breast cancer where she had some lymph nodes and luckily, you know, Tim: Giese. Joe: Through through chemo and radiation, she came out on the other side and everything's great. But Tim: Good. Joe: The big thing that she also had was she had a naturopathic doctor Tim: Hmm. Joe: That went that came from the cancer world. So the advantages is that he understood the treatment that was happening with the normal medicine and he knew what to give her to not take away from what she was doing with the chemo and radiation, but at the same time helped to keep her system built up and not offset any of that. So there was a perfect marriage between the two. And Tim: That's. Joe: I swear to this day, I feel like that was the reason that she was Tim: Wow. Joe: Fairly, fairly normal through the process, like we were doing 90 X and she was in the middle Tim: That's Joe: Of chemo Tim: All Joe: And radiation. Tim: Right. Joe: Yeah, it was ridiculous. So Tim: Dude, that's Joe: So Tim: Awesome. Joe: I'm a big fan of the naturopathic side of things and natural remedies and all of that. So Tim: Not the. Joe: So that's why this was a cool episode for me, because it's hard to talk with somebody that is in this niche that you're in without it being the big stores. And so my first question, because I got so many of them Tim: I Joe: First question and the first Tim: Love Joe: Question Tim: It. Joe: Is how do you become with all of the misinformation that's out Tim: The. Joe: In the world? Right. And this is what confuses all of us as consumers. You go to Amazon and you say, I need a B vitamin of Tim: Right Joe: Some B supplement. Tim: Now. Joe: And the habit is you you click on the five star rating, things that you want. You think that's going to be the best because people are taking their time to read it, which Tim: Yeah. Joe: I think there's enough Tim: What Joe: Conversation Tim: Did he. Joe: In the world that says that's not necessarily true. Tim: Right. Joe: And then you literally are just like throwing darts at a dartboard with Tim: I Joe: A blindfold Tim: Know that, Joe: On. So. Tim: I know. Joe: So how do you get through all the misinformation that you feel so confident enough that when you when you suggest something to a client that you haven't been taken advantage of by the misinformation, like Tim: Yeah, Joe: How do you get through Tim: Because. Joe: All of that stuff? Tim: A great question and even the reviews, if a company markets really well and they're incredible at marketing, they can get a billion, five star reviews and they can be like synthetic sourced from China, not NSF certification. So over the years, you start to be able to read between the lines and you start to be able to say, hey, this is B.S. over here. This is marketing. Only not met with quality. And like any industry, you start to learn the good, better and best. So there's a few things. So first and foremost, I think everybody needs somebody on their team. Like your wife has that naturopathic doctor now as a resource that she can probably shoot an email to or make an appointment with and ask these questions. I think everybody needs somebody on their team because most people have a medical doctor and beyond that and they might have a pharmacist. Right. And they're good to have on your team, but we need somebody with. Expertise, knowledge, history in the supplement space, because even a naturopathic doctor, they know way more than I do about the human body, about maybe. Yeah, just just how to treat maybe disease. Tim: Right. When you're in the supplement space, there is you get to deal with hundreds and hundreds of brands. And over the decades, which I think 18 years now, you start to find out what brands are good and trustworthy and which ones aren't because the FDA doesn't regulate all the supplements. So you can say whatever you want on the label about me, your romantic drink here, but you can say whatever you want and. FDA isn't going to necessarily nail you if you're lying, if your label is making false label claims and this happens, there was a clinic in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where not real clinical, but where they took products from a number of stores, GNC, Walgreens, Wal-Mart and Target. They took supplements from those four stores and then they had them tested at Chavannes and it was Chavannes Labs. And all four of them had discrepancies with what the label said and what was actually in the capsule. And one product was an Asia product, which is good for the immune system. And it had zero percent echinacea in there and a little bit of garlic like Joe: Oh, Tim: What Joe: My Tim: The H Joe: Gosh. Tim: Now? Yeah. So that exactly what you said. It's shooting in the dark. Is it marketing that's producing these reviews? Is it quality? Is it going to help me? Is it a waste of my money? Am I being sold. Right. So there's all those questions and the privilege that I'm so thankful for is just being submersed in the supplement world long enough. You learn a couple of things. So sourcing is vital. Where is it coming from? There is vitamin C that you can get our China, that there's some concerns there with chemicals, heavy metals, arsenic, or you can get vitamin C from Scallan, which happens to have a really rich ascorbic acid form of vitamin C clean, great place to source it from. So where a product is sourced from is really important. Number two is does the brand have NSF certification? So NZDF C, GMP grade facilities that they work with, which they're paying money to NSF to a third party test and ensure that they're having all of these practices that are healthy for supplements, they're sourcing their cleanliness. Has it been tested? Is it clean? Those questions? And NSF doesn't care about the company. They care about the reputation. So there sure as heck going to just that's a good certification is trusted in the supplement world to ensure that what's on the label is actually in the product. Tim: So sourcing No. One, NSF, GMP certification, number two and number three, which all of these take some sort of expertise or having somebody on your your team. You know, that's why I say to have somebody on your team first. But number three is the forms of nutrients. So E 12, which I gave the example earlier, Psion Kabalan and B 12 is synthetic. So your body has to convert it and you lose a lot of the content in that conversion versus a methyl form B 12, which is the natural form that your body absorbs really, really well. So four items, number one and two, saucing and NSF, you can have a very clean form of sign Kabalan and B 12 source, very clean. You could have NSF facility ensuring that you have that 50 micrograms of cyanide Kabalan B 12 in the B complex. But then it would take some expertise to know, like, OK, that's fine, that's good. But we would prefer a methyl form would be 12 because it absorbs so much better Joe: Mr.. Tim: And every single nutrient. This blows my mind because every single nutrient has good, better, best. You know, whether you're talking about vitamin C, ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbic calcium ascorbic B 12, which I'm talking about the six paroxetine hydrochloride versus toxified phosphate turmeric. You can get the the turmeric that colors your Indian curry orange and you can take that capsule and it's good for you. It just doesn't do very much for inflammation unless you extract the curcumin out and then even that doesn't have a good absorption rate. So blending it with the turmeric, essential oils and the sunflower lecithin launch the absorption where it's literally absorbing two hundred to five hundred times better than the turmeric Indian spice that you started with. And that's the form of ninety five. That's the form that Baylor University of Texas is using to literally treat cancer and chronic pain with incredible results. I mean, the cancer story is very cool. Inflammation is the root of the root system of cancer. Joe: Mm, huh. Tim: So that's an example where it's like oh man form so saucing, NZDF, GMP, great facility forms of nutrients. Those are the big three that you want to look at to know quality. Right. So that's what I always tell somebody, find somebody that you can trust. So for you guys, it might be your your doctor that your wife worked with for in Madison, Wisconsin. A lot of people trust the healthy place to help guide them, know we don't do commission so that we can just recommend what's best so Joe: Right. Tim: People can use that live chat feature on our website to just ask those questions. But find a health food store maybe that is trustworthy in your home town, that you do meet a job like my mom met John Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Or find a store like mine that you can connect with and you can go to when health strikes, health problems strike because everybody has some conditions, some problem, something, even if it's something as simple as fatigue, you know. Ninety two percent of fatigue is related to your adrenal glands. You can strengthen your adrenal glands and you can have more vibrant energy every day. And people just don't know that. So they keep reaching for the coffee or the soda or the caffeine pills, what have you. So get somebody on your team that you can trust. Joe: So go. So you said at one point in this conversation that do you have over 4000 Tim: Products, yeah. Joe: Excuse now, right? OK, so let's just take that as an example. It's a full time job for someone like you to be the Tim: Yes. Joe: Gatekeeper Tim: Yeah. Joe: Of your of the healthy place. You have to be the gatekeeper to say, yes, this comes into our door and gets put on ourselves or in our e-commerce store or Tim: The. Joe: No, this doesn't meet the criteria. So to me, it feels like it's continuing education and literally a full time job for whoever that person. Let's just say it's you at the moment that Tim: Yeah. Joe: Is the person that says yay or nay on these products. So it's just mind boggling what is out there and what you have to do to sort of educate yourself to to say, yes, this makes the cut, not only doesn't make the cut, but it's in a product. It's not a product and not a C product, you Tim: Yeah, Joe: Know what I mean? Tim: You're Joe: So. Tim: Absolutely right. And it's like reading a book, though, you don't want to minimize what I do, it's like it's not hard for you to read English, you know, after you've learned it. But if you're learning a new language, it looks like totally confusing. Overwhelming can take me forever to learn this language. And it might take some years to learn it. Once you have that language mastered, it's just like reading a book, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tim: You just check the boxes, right. OK, where is the source from NSF? GMP, what's the forms of these nutrients? Because you start to learn and then you have experts that you follow. A lot of people smarter than me that I follow. Dr. X, Dr. While, Dr. Whitaker, Dr. Northrup. And you start Terry Lambrew and you start to follow these gurus in the southern industry that have been there for 40 years, that know so much more than you. And you're reading their literature, listening to their podcasts. They're the symposiums around the planet that are going on for this breakthrough, that breakthrough. You get the subscriptions right to the. So I just tell everyone, get plugged in at least where you're getting encouraged on a regular basis to own your health, build your terrane strength in your health and all the ways that you can inspire yourself on a regular basis and then get somebody on your team that you can trust to help guide you in the space, because it is a new language, right? Joe: It's nuts, it's just it's so frustrating. Did a three month vegan plan Tim: Nice. Joe: Because Tim: Yeah. Joe: I'm not vegan, but I loved it like it was good for me. But I Tim: Yeah. Joe: Actually I actually, in the process, lost a lot of muscle mass because I was also going always going to the gym. But all of a sudden I started to shrink both, Tim: Right, Joe: You Tim: Like, Joe: Know. Tim: No. Joe: So, yes, I'm like, I'm doing all this hard work. And it's just I needed to get on a B 12 vitamin of something. And it's funny because I don't even know what I'm taking, but it's something that I got from Amazon and Tim: Your Joe: I Tim: I can do it. I've been assigned to general Joe: I'm sure. Tim: Check that Joe: So Tim: After Joe: I'm going Tim: The program. Joe: To look when yeah. When we're done, I'm going to look and then I'm going to and then I'm going to say I need a direct line to Tim in Tim: There Joe: The Tim: We Joe: Chat Tim: Go. Joe: Room. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So have you ever thought of franchises? Tim: I have, I Joe: And Tim: Have. Joe: And I'm Tim: You Joe: Just interested you don't have to you don't have to Tim: Know, Joe: Say to. Tim: I'm so I am very interested and I have been kicking that ball around in my head for a long time because we are we specialize in education, right. So you got to find ways to duplicate yourself in a franchise. And so we created a three month curriculum that our wellness consultants have to go through. They have to pass quizzes and tests and they have to get certifications from this company, this company and MKB certification, all the enzyme certifications to understand the industry, know what questions to ask customers and how to make recommendations. So that's one of the hardest things that we've done that would make it more easy to duplicate the knowledge side of our company and our brand. And as I've talked to people who have created franchises, the the legal side to it is one hurdle and then enforcing them to actually maintain your model as representing the healthy place. What we have created is the two big unknowns for me as far as difficulty. So then the choice came, should we just keep adding brick and mortars in our own territory? Right, right. In the Madison area and then put all of our energy and focus into our brands that we've created and our website because there's infinite you can do in the business world and you kind Joe: Mm Tim: Of Joe: Hmm. Tim: Have to choose. Joe: Yeah. Tim: So we decided to park the franchise idea for now and really go after lively vitamin CO. This is one of the brands that have been borne out of our brick and mortar stores. So now we're selling that to other health food stores around the country. And the number two is build find your healthy place dotcom, because just like Amazon is a freakin mammoth, there's so much opportunity to impact and power and educate everything that I'm passionate about on that website. So currently with four kids, we are chilling on the franchise idea. But I think it's brilliant because there's not there's not the option out there, which is why it keeps coming back to me Joe: Yeah, Tim: Like Joe: Yeah. Tim: There's not that many health food stores out there that really care. Soulsby for sales. You know, as one of my Joe: Mm Tim: Saying Joe: Hmm. Tim: That, Joe: I Tim: I really Joe: Love that, by the way, I love that. Tim: Thank you. Thank you. There is a time I was praying and it was like not I it going to make my friggin mortgage. When I first opened the store, I was praying to God for sales and I was like, God to declare bankruptcy here is brutal. And it was like an arrow is like, do you care about their soul as much as you care about the sales? Joe: Yeah. Tim: And it was kind of striking. So, yeah, there's not that many stores out there that really care about the human that have knowledge to help guide them and a model that works to help people, you know. So it's still an idea that keeps coming back to me. So Joe: Right. Tim: We'll see. Joe: Yeah, well, good luck if it happens, I'm sure it'll be great. Tim: Thank you. You see one popping up next door, you'll know where to get your V12. Joe: There you go. So you hit upon this a moment ago with the whole franchising thing of how to actually create this template and create a strict thing where where the people that are talking to your customers are very educated and they're giving the right information and asking the right questions. So how have you done that with the people that are at your current stores and how have you done that with the people that are on the other end of the chat? When somebody files in to ask these questions, Tim: Yeah, so. Joe: How do you get something like when is somebody OK? You're ready to take a call, you're ready to be on the chat, you're ready to to advise a customer in the store, like, what's that process? Tim: Yeah, Joe: And you don't Tim: So. Joe: Have to go too deep. I just Tim: No, Joe: I Tim: No, Joe: But Tim: That. Joe: I'm sure somebody is going to say, like, hey, Tim, super educated on this. So every time I talk, like I just said, you know what I call him on the chat, I want him, you Tim: Right. Joe: Know. So Tim: Right. Joe: How to how do you duplicate Tim so that everyone that's coming in on the chat or walking in the store says this is just a clone of Tim like he may. He's already run them through the ringer, you know? Tim: Yeah, that's so the three month curriculum that we created is our pride and joy. I'm so thankful for that. It was brutal to create. So I created one hundred videos, having a five minute conversation where I'm explaining different parts of the world and explaining brands and what to look for and how to explain it. And then we'll go through they'll have to pass quizzes and tests based on each module. So there's nine different modules to this curriculum. They have to go through trainings with specific companies. They have to do a number of roleplaying activities with our managers where they pretend to be the customer Joe: Mm Tim: And Joe: Hmm. Tim: Coming in, hey, I'm looking for some CBDs. What do you got? And so they get tested there and they have to get these certifications from each of these brands, so they have to pass it. So there's one guy who got to the end and he is like, OK, dude, we got to rewind because you're not retaining this stuff. So either you did the last minute cramming for this quiz the night before. And like I didn't I did that in high school. Joe: Ok. Tim: And then you don't retain it, right. Joe: Yeah. Tim: So do you really care about this or not? So he had to start over. He had to go through it again. So it's a team. We have a leadership team of five. And so we have these nine modules, the quizzes, the tests. They have to pass them. They have to do the role playing. And then the leadership team of five will say, OK, this person's ready or they're really not ready. And there's still a couple of parts of our team where we're like, OK, where they can be a wellness consultant in the store, but we don't think they're ready to be on live chat. So then we'll wait maybe six months until they have a little bit more experience, because where our team learns the most is from the customers coming in asking the questions and they don't know the answers of how to treat colitis Joe: Mm Tim: With Joe: Hmm. Tim: Whatever. So then they have to go find out to get back to that customer and then they learn something. So right now, I'm proud to say our live chat feature on our website, if you go to find your other place, dotcom lower, right. You get that little live chat bubble, the seven different consultants that you might run into over there are, I wouldn't say clones of Tim because I think they're smarter than me, but they are really well equipped and able to match, kind of hit the mark of where they need to be. And they all know and are passionate enough about helping people to not. One of the first things that I'll tell them is, dude, never bullshit. Joe: Yeah, yeah. Tim: That's a real thing. And I came from a I won't say anything negative where it's just more about getting the sale, about getting that commission. And and that's part of why we don't do commissions. So it's a fun process for intense. Joe: Well, that's great, man. Yeah, so I want to respect your time. We're down to the wire. I want to make sure I didn't miss anything that you want to talk about. So you have four stores in Wisconsin. Tim: Madison, Joe: Correct. Tim: Wisconsin, the. Joe: Ok, and you have the website Tim: Find your healthy place, Dotcom. Joe: Buying your healthy place, Dotcom. Anything else that I missed that is important that we talk about? Tim: You know, dude, I mean, as I was thinking about this program and your followers, like what your mission is, you're trying to encourage entrepreneurs, trying to encourage people to be thankful for life. You don't Joe: Mm Tim: Take Joe: Hmm. Tim: To treat life like the gift it is, you Joe: Yep. Tim: Know? So I did want to offer your followers a coupon code. If they don't have you know, if you have a health food store in your own home town, that's great sport. Those guys, if you have somebody on your team, that's awesome. That's my main passion. And if you need a resource that you can trust, if you go to find your healthy place dotcom and you get something type in coupon code, Castelo, and that'll give 30 percent off the full price on anything on our whole website, we have thousands of products. So anything from V12 to something more intense. And regardless if you buy something or not, use that live chat feature to ask questions. You know, I've had people call my cell phone bill. Hey, Jim, you know, I'm in Wholefoods right now and I'm looking at three different multivitamins. Like which one do you think I should get? You know, and I get to tell them and it's fun and you can share the love. And so use that live chat feature as a resource, because more than ever, dude, we need natural alternatives. We need some education we at least need to know about, like Joel and your Joe: Yeah, Tim: Life partner. Dude, Joe: Yeah. Tim: What if she didn't have that naturopathic doctor that gave her some natural supplements through one of the most intensive crisis's that she ever faced in her life? Like, you know, in your gut that that helped her in a dramatic way because you watched her do P ninety three, the cancer experience. Joe: Yeah. Tim: I mean, that's a miracle, dude. And it took somebody reaching out and it took a resource being willing to respond to create that miracle, you know. And so that's what I want for people. Joe: Yeah, it's I can't stress it enough that Tim: Right. Joe: What I saw before my very eyes every single Tim: Right. Joe: Day and it would and then I see people that are going through cancer of some type and they're only being treated, Tim: As Joe: You know, Tim: A medical doctor, yeah. Joe: And they're their body is just being crushed. Tim: Yes. Joe: And there's and there's nothing, no nothing helping to offset the chemicals and all of the harshness Tim: Know. Joe: Of that treatment. And so. Tim: Right, and let me say, you know, you saw it with somebody you loved very much, I saw it with my mom when I was five or six. And since then, I'm getting goosebumps. I have seen it for thousands of people through the last 11 years that the healthy place has been a company, thousands of people, not always cancer, but but we're talking depression, chronic pain, Crohn's disease, asthma, like people suffering like megacorp. There's so much suffering going on Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: In the world and there is natural alternatives that people literally don't know about. They have nobody in their world telling them. So they just listen to whatever mainstream media or their medical doctor Joe: Yeah. Tim: Or their pharmacist. And there's a lot of good people with good intent in those areas. It's just there's not the voice of natural alternatives. So we need to know about this stuff. We've got to get the word out. Joe: Yeah, it's great, man, I love what you're doing, and this Tim: Think. Joe: Was exciting for me and and I think I actually have your personal email, so I'm just going Tim: That's Joe: To I'm Tim: Awesome. Joe: Going to go I'm going to go ten. I need Tim: You Joe: More Tim: Should. Joe: Energy, Tim. I think I think I have inflammation. And I'm going Tim: Yeah, Joe: To be like. Tim: I know you should, and if anyone's listening to and they because sometimes, you know, they just have a trust factor or whatever, Tim at Find Your Healthy Place Dotcom. I am happy to take emails. This what I get to do all day, dude, and it's just fun. It's so rewarding. You just get to point people in the right direction and help them out. So I love it. Joe: I wish you all the luck in the world, this is a Tim: Thank you. Joe: This is a great thing that you're doing. It's nice to have somebody who is, like you said, it's it's Soulsby before sales. It's a great it's a great way to do it. And I think Tim: Thank Joe: You'll be Tim: You. Joe: Rewarded continually be rewarded for doing Tim: Thank Joe: It that Tim: You. Joe: Way. I'll put everything in the show notes. Thank you for the coupon for the listeners Tim: Now. Joe: And I'll make sure I have all the correct links. So find your healthy place. Dotcom is the website. The company's name is the Healthy Place for locations in Madison, Wisconsin. You eventually might franchise someday, Tim: Yes, Joe: But Tim: And people on Facebook, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tim: The healthy people on Facebook, my wife's a genius as far as really caring for our community there. So you'll find a lot of good content and Instagram as well. So thank you, dear. This Joe: Yeah, Tim: Is. Joe: Tim, thanks so much, man, I really appreciate your time today and thanks for all the insight and I really do wish you the best of luck. Tim: Any time, brother, and wish the same to you. Joe: Thank you, Matt. Tim: I hope you enjoyed this episode, and I want to thank you for listening to my podcast. I know you have many options to listen to various podcasts, and I'm honored that you chose to listen to mine. I would love it if you were to rate my podcast Five Stars and write a nice review. It really helps to bring up the rankings of the podcast. Other listeners, once again, thank you so much for listening to the Joe Costello show. I appreciate you very much.  

Mike C-Roc Ciorrocco is the CEO of People Building, Inc., and the powerhouse behind the "What Are You Made Of?" movement. He is a performance coach, author, dynamic public speaker, visionary, and thought leader. He has been featured by Yahoo! Finance as one of the Top Business Leaders to Follow in 2020 and is on a mission to build people. He is driven to inspire others and he measures his success on how he is able to help others achieve greatness. C-Roc had a fire lit in him at an early age. That fire has ignited him with a fierce desire to compel people to see the greatness inside themselves using past life events to fuel their fire. Past hardships can be a powerful gravitational force that keeps you down and forces you to think small. To get out of orbit you need Rocket Fuel. Mike "C-Roc" Ciorrocco shows you how to convert past adversity into ROCKET FUEL to break free from the negative pull of pain and despair. In his new book, C-Roc offers life-changing lessons in personal transformation by asking yourself What Are You Made Of? This powerful question will ignite within you a thrust to greatness! Learn how to overcome painful past obstacles and achieve a fulfilling life where you're in command of your future. If you're ready to shoot for the stars, C-Roc says, "Thrust is a must!" Strap in and get ready for the ride of your life. Mike's latest book: https://amzn.to/3wwkTX5 CEO - People Building, Inc. C-Roc's Website: https://www.mikecroc.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikeycroc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mikeciorrocco YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGWHuKojqZfcXmvGCAi_t1Q LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-ciorrocco/ Email: info@peoplebuildinginc.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, welcome, everybody. Today, my guest is Mike "C-Roc" Ciorrocco. I'm really excited to have this talk with him and I know you're going to enjoy this. Mike, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Mike: Thank you, Joe. I'd like to start every interview that I go on with gratitude and just really express that to you for allowing me to come on and share with you. And thank you to your audience for listening and showing up. Joe: Absolutely, man, I love that gratitudes a huge thing in my life, so I'm right there with you. I appreciate it. I think it's important that everyone has their back story makes up sort of what they've become in life. You know, it doesn't define who they become. But there is something about what has happened throughout your life leading up to where you are now that has molded this person that you've become. And I Mike: Right. Joe: Am interested in that. And and I always start with this, just like you always start. What is it? What are you made of? Right. That's what you Mike: They Joe: Start Mike: Had to turn your head sideways, I love Joe: perfect! Mike: It, you know, now, you know, I came from a broken home. I don't remember my parents together, Joe. I grew up around a lot of broken people, alcoholics, drug addicts, people suffering from anxiety, depression. My grandmother committed suicide after taking too much anti anxiety or depression medication. You know, a lot of things I went through as a kid just watching just destruction. And, you know, I think that decisions we make and Focus's that we have either go towards living and surviving or destruction. And I was seeing the destruction part and I wasn't OK with that. And I didn't want to accept that. So I would always try to help people switch around even from a young age. I was just not OK with what I was seeing. And, you know, my mom when I was three or four years old, I just remember her always telling me that I inspired her and I was going to be a leader. And I think subconsciously, subconsciously, she was doing that because she knew what was going on in the family and knew that I was gonna have to deal with some things. And so I had that programmed into me. So I was always just looking for people to help, looking for people to show them a better way and not buying into what they were telling themselves. And so, you know, that's just something I experienced at a young age. And really when it came down, what lit my fire and what I made of, I would say, is rocket fuel. Because when I was eight, my mom was moving on to her third marriage and I wasn't really up for going into another man's house and learned another man's rules Joe: Hmm. Mike: And but decided to give my dad a try who was moving on to his second marriage. And at that time, you know. I broke my mom's heart by doing that. I didn't know that at the time, but she told me later on that, you know, she cried herself to sleep at night when I left and I was our first child, you know, and when I moved to my dad's, everything seemed fine at first. But after three years, you know, during that three years, there was a lot of conflict. You know, there's a when you had step parents into the mix, any time that stuff happens. The kid is the only link between the past relationship and so a lot gets taken out on the children and anybody that's been in a broken home that dealt with child support, custody battles every other weekend, things that parents jealous, things like just everybody that's been through that knows what I'm talking about. And so a lot of that time they're in from eight to 11 hours, experience a lot of emotional, psychological abuse threats, things like that that were really probably not directed towards me, but came my way. And at nine years old, I would sleep with my baseball bat a lot of nights Joe: Wow. Mike: Because I was scared. And no kid should have to go through that, through that, of course. But that's what went into making me look. I went through these things. I went through court, child psychologists, to see if I was mature enough that at a young age to figure out who I wanted to live with, like all that kind of stuff Joe: Make Mike: And. Joe: Your own decisions, all of that, that crazy. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, yeah, Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, Mike: And seeing parents fight Joe: Yeah. Mike: And, you know, just just not not happy environment, and so that's what went into me. But the thing is, is that I was always on the right side of the track. Thank God. I was always looking at how can I be better not being accepting of it. Let me look at the bright side of things. Let me look at, OK, what is this doing and how can I take advantage of using this to a better life? So one weekend I was coming home from my mom's house Joe: And Mike: And Joe: So Mike: I Joe: I don't mean to interrupt. Was this Mike: Noticed Joe: All Mike: For. Joe: In Maryland or all back on the East Coast or. Mike: This is in Pennsylvania, outside of Philly. Joe: Ok, cool. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Ok. Mike: So so my mom was living in Maryland, and you know what, I got to about 10, some 10 years old, give or take. I was coming home from my mom's house one day, one weekend after being there and my stomach was in knots. I was anxious. I don't want to go back. And my mom was saying something was wrong. She questioned me and I told her, you know, when you go through abuse, anybody that's been through abuse, you can probably relate to this. That one you don't just like to share because you're afraid that people won't believe you, too. You kind of you're so accustomed to going through it, you're not sure how bad it really is. Somebody on the outside would be like, holy cow, you're dealing with that really. Joe: Yeah. Mike: But as you're going through it, you just think it's ordinary. Another thing, maybe you're embarrassed that you let it go on for that long. And then the weirdest thing is that you're actually concerned with your abuser. You're like, what will happen if I share this to them? Joe: At. Mike: You know, just a weird thing. So I finally came came to the realization that I need to share that my mom said, you know, I'm going to get you out of there. I'm going to file court papers. You don't need to be going through that. That's not ordinary. You need to, you know, in a better situation, she said. But if you do if I do this, you need to stick to your guns. You've got to be like really, really firm because they're going to try to talk you out of it. And in life, when you believe in something, you've got to stick to your guns, man, because people will have agendas and they're going to try to talk you out of it, move one way or the other. And at the end of the day. If you do that, you're not going to live the life you want to live, so she reminded me that, you know, 10 years old, you know, filling my head with great stuff, you know, and I went back home that day and waited and waited weeks went by and waited for those court papers to be delivered. You know, I just knew it was going to happen. And I didn't tell my dad about it, of course. And then finally, one day I come home from school and the tension in the house, you could feel it like it was something was up. And I knew what the deal Joe: Mm Mike: Was. Joe: Hmm. Mike: I had to feel the first. I thought I did something wrong. You know, I'm looking around like, what did I do today? He had his papers in his hand. My dad did. And I knew, like, oh, here we go. And he told me to go to my room. Now, my dad was my hero. He had a successful masonry business, very hard worker, big forearms, rough hands. Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, you tell he's a hard worker and he always cared a wad of hundred dollar bills in his pocket. And I thought that was the coolest thing and had a rubber band around Joe: So Mike: It Joe: Did Mike: And. Joe: My partner, it's so buddy. Mike: Yeah, yeah, it must be the last thing Joe: Yeah, and. Mike: He would always show me the money, and I thought it was a cool hundred dollar bills, Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, so he came back in front of me and I didn't get into the discussion with him because my mom said, stick to your guns. So he proceeded to tell me how my mom would have guys coming in and out. Why would you want to go there? You have it made here. You have everything you need. They're poor. They don't have anything. You know, my mom was I mean, we look at the houses. Twenty five, thirty thousand. Our house broken down cars in the driveway. You know, we went on vacation to the Jersey Shore. Joe: Yeah. Mike: But we stayed in a rundown motel, one room for kids, two adults, and we were I just remember just the other day, we were actually able to bring some friends with us sometimes, which just makes it like just I don't even remember how that worked. And we would take black trash bags as a suitcase. So, you know, share my story. By the way, back in the day, I was kind of embarrassed by that. I just didn't like to share that, you know. Joe: Yep. Mike: But I started to realize that the more you share your story, the more impact you can have and the more people that can relate to it and maybe change your life for two Joe: Yep, Mike: Or millions, Joe: Yep. Mike: You know. So I started sharing that. But just to wrap it up real quick, so when I did confirm that my dad took that wad of hundred dollar bills out of his pocket, peeled one off, crumpled it up and threw it at me and said, if that's the case and you want to move there, you're going to need this when you're living on the street with your mother one day. And I remember that 30 some years I lived off that spark that was lit right there because I'm stubborn, my shirt that I think is, say, Joe: And. Mike: Stubborn, perversely unyielding, it's a good thing when it's on the right thing. But, you know, I was like, I'm not going to let that happen. And so 30 some years, I was driving off that spark until two years ago. I really subconsciously I was doing that. I really realized two years ago, wait a minute here, there's something magical that's going on. My life keeps going on its upward trajectory. No matter what happens, no matter screw ups, let downs, disappointments, what is happening here and what I found, which I wrote in my book that's coming out Monday, May 3rd on Amazon Rocket Fuel, I was taken everything that would stop normal human beings or slow them down, store it in my fuel tank instead of my truck, would weigh you down and converted it into rocket fuel for my future to become unstoppable. And I found that and I realized, wait a minute, this is not just a concept. This is an this is a law. If you do this, you really are unstoppable to live in the life of your dreams until you're plucked from this planet. So that's why I decided to write this book that Grant Carter wrote the foreword because it was so powerful. I got to get this message out to people. So that's a little bit about the story. There's you know, that's the short version, actually. Joe: No, that's all good. That's exactly what I wanted, the only piece that I still need to figure out is what did you do? How did you figure out what you wanted to do in life in that middle section of where people go to college or they get a job? Or what Mike: Yeah. Joe: Did you do during that time? Mike: Well, I played football and I didn't drink any alcohol or party all through high school, I played football, baseball wrestled, but football was my love Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: And I just I always thought about I want to go to Ohio State, play football, because I just love their team. I watched them play Michigan all the time growing up. And I never grew tall enough, never grew fast enough Joe: I feel your pain. Mike: That. Yeah. So five, six and three quarters, you got to be really, really fast if you're five, six Joe: Yeah. Mike: And three quarters. So I decided to go to Division three. I played football in college study business. But when I got to college, Joe, I lost my focus and I started chasing girls and party in which I never did before. And it was like Disney World first, you Joe: Yeah, Mike: Know what I mean? Joe: Yeah. Mike: And I just lost, man, I four, five, six, seven years in that range. I was just it's all I cared about was parties where the girls at and I need to be around people. And so that's that's the lead up to that. And then eventually I met my wife, who just the commitment to my wife straighten me up. And I was off to the races. I think that my thing with my wife right now, I joke with her all the time, is I have to outsource. I have to earn her spending on Amazon and deliveries to the house. So it's constantly like this. The other day she's like, I look I go up in the kitchen and there's a piece of decking, like the composite decking. Joe: Oh, you know Mike: We Joe: That Mike: Have Joe: That's Mike: A wood Joe: Going Mike: Deck. Joe: To be redone. Mike: And I'm like, I already told you, oh, not right now. It seems like I already had somebody come over measured Joe: Oh, Mike: On my car and drive back down into the cave. Joe: That's Mike: I call this my studio, my cave. I got to go make some money now. Joe: That's so Mike: A Joe: Funny. Mike: Great motivator. Joe: That is awesome. All right. Well, that's where and was college. Mike: Salisbury University in Maryland. Joe: Ok, and then ever since you've stayed in Maryland, Mike: Yeah, Joe: But Mike: I Joe: Now Mike: Moved Joe: You're Mike: To Joe: In Mike: Connecticut Joe: Ocean City, Mike: For a period of time, Joe: Yep, Mike: But we moved to Ocean City Joe: Yep. Mike: Now. Yep. Joe: Which is beautiful. I love it there. OK, cool. Yeah. And I'm Mike: Thank Joe: On the East Mike: You. Joe: Coast. I'm originally from New Mike: A Joe: York. Mike: Cool, Joe: So. Mike: Cool. Joe: So this leads right into the question that since you're going to do the decking, are you still doing. Are you still in the mortgage business because that's your. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, Mike: Yeah, Joe: Ok. OK. Mike: Yeah, we have a have a division that I run with three best friends, they take care of the day to day operations Joe: Yep. Mike: And it's a large division under our nation's lending. And we run it like our own business. And it's great people, great culture. It's just phenomenal. Joe: And Mike: So. Joe: You've been doing that quite a long time, right? I've saw Mike: Yet. Joe: You've gotten rated as number number one in Yahoo! Finance are right. I mean, you have. Mike: Yeah, so 2006, I got into it and started as a loan officer and just went from two employees and started a branch and vision and two employees up to 40. Joe: Wow, that's incredible. OK, cool. So when did you make this shift of and you talk about this in one of your videos about sharing your story and you share. You also mentioned it when you were giving your story, how important that is. And when did you make this when did you allow yourself to say, OK, I have this business and I have great partners and people to run this business? When did you decide to at least start your company now with what you're doing with your podcast, in your book and everything? What was the trigger for that? Mike: Yes, so early, twenty, nineteen, my stepfather, George, she took over from my dad when I was 11. He was a great guy and he passed away in twenty eighteen and a heart attack suddenly. And I wrote about this in the book, the story about how he found out and everything. It's it's you know, but but at the end of the day, he had a passion when he was passionate about something like football, baseball, hunting, fishing. He would get up and just go nuts, like deep voice, like everybody couldn't, like, really understand him. He was like so passionate, like they would be taken aback by him. And when he passed away, you know, a couple of weeks after he passed away, I had this passion or energy, something spirit come inside of me. Like, I just felt different. And I realized that I wasn't playing a big enough game in life. You know, I was doing well in the business and the mortgages and all that. But it just that's not the game that I was designed for. I was playing small and I started to realize, wait a minute, I need to open myself up to other opportunities, because if I just focus here, this is where I'm going to stay. And I was having truths that I was telling myself and beliefs that I was telling myself is that this is it for me. This is I'm stuck, you know, Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: I don't necessarily love the mortgage business. It's great and all that. But the end of the day, I just had a bigger, bigger calling. And so I started trying to figure out, OK, how can I get known in this calling of building people? Because that's what I actually do at the mortgage business. It wasn't the mortgage business. It was I was building people. I was helping develop people. And so I said, how can I get known more in a bigger, bigger scale mystate instead of just my town? Then I was like, that's not big enough. I'll come up short. How about the country and then the globe? And then I was like, you know, what? If I start really expanding my mind, I'm like, if there's aliens, which I've never seen one, but if there is, let me see if I can get aliens to know who I am and really go for that and then come up a little short and I'll be all right. And that's the way I started thinking about things and started trying to impact and share my story with tens of millions of people, hundreds of millions of people. How can I do that? And I started to obsess about that. And that's when the podcast came. The book idea came and and I just started networking like an animal and going on. You know, I've done three hundred interviews in the last year. Joe: Oh, that's crazy. Mike: So just really lean into it and that's how it all started, and then now I'm into tech, into the tech world where I'm developing a tech product. I co-founded the company. And also we have other we're creating a tech portfolio of other co-founders, non tech entrepreneurs that have ideas that think that they can never do it. They usually go to the grave with those Joe: Mm Mike: Things. Joe: Hmm. Mike: We're bringing them into the world and giving them the resources they need to actually co-found their companies and creating unstoppable people. Because my mission, Joe, is all people are unstoppable to live in the life of their dreams. And so everything I do, I filter through that mission. Joe: It's so cool, man, and it's so funny because you hit it right on the head with with the same thing with me, it's like you don't have a successful business. But I know it's not my calling. It's not what I was put here to do. And and everything that I do should be so much more impactful and so much bigger. And I've had this I had the conversation with David Meltzer. And at the same Mike: Yeah. Joe: Time, he brings you back in focus and he's like, yeah, but you should know that you you have everything you need. You just got to get out of your own way. It's not a matter that you should focus on wanting more. You have it all. You're just Mike: Yep. Joe: You're literally getting in your own way of getting it done. Mike: Yeah, and that's the thing, it's the truths that we tell ourselves we're living an illusion, we let the illusions that we have based on our beliefs and past experiences, and we let that affect us and limit us and block us. And really, at the end of the day, you know, we'd rather explain our life instead of actually intervening in it. We'd like to explain with excuses, you know, and justify things and, you know, at the end of the day, man, we just tell ourselves what we can tell ourselves that helps us survive. And to me, that's not good enough, because you're going to always come up a little short, so why not thrive and really go after it? And, you know, there's not everybody that's going to be able to do what we do. So why don't we take it up a notch and get get really abundance, like go after abundance so that we can help other people and distribute this information to other people. So that's the kind of things that I started thinking. I started hanging around people that coach and mentor me the right way, thinking big, you know, also, you know, still like Dave Meltzer talks about, you've got to be happy now. It's not like later, Joe: Yeah, Mike: So. Joe: Yeah, so I don't want to go down the current path, I follow him, I love the stuff that he does. I know that it fits the mold for a lot of people that are in the real estate world. And but Mike: Yeah. Joe: I also know that he's doing a lot of other things. But how he wrote the foreword to your book, which is amazing, how how much did he influence you making this jump to doing what you're doing now? Mike: So when George died, my stepfather, my brother was read in the next room and he said, Mike, you've got to read this book, this guy sounds just like you. I'll take a look at it. I started I saw Grant before and like pictures, but I thought he was like a real estate. Joe: Yep, Mike: I thought he trained realtors, Joe: Yep, Mike: I wasn't even sure, Joe: Yep. Mike: Right, so I read the book and I'm like, holy cow, this guy speaking to me, he's going through similar situations that I've been Joe: Yeah. Mike: Through. Like, I can totally relate. And I but but the big thing was about it was I've always had this big think, but I got cocooned for a while by people that I surround myself with that were broken thinkers, broken mindset, people, people that didn't fit my culture, but they produce. So I kept them around and people that quit on me. And I let that affect me personally. And I got into this situation where I was invalidated, me myself. I felt invalidated on being the animal that I actually am. And so when I was reading that book, I'm like, wait a minute, this this shows me something. I'm not the crazy one. Those people are the crazy ones. I have an animal. So I did unleash it. So I was able to unleash the beast and that's what it did for me. And then I just immersed myself in this content, hung around with all these people, build relationships inside his company, because I just want to be around those types of people. Joe: Yep. Mike: Great, great friendships. Like I said, Jerry Glantz, a friend of mine, I just you know, I'm proud to have them in my in my circle. And so when when I wrote the book, the book actually came from an idea that I got while I was interviewing grad on my podcast about I asked him the question, what would it take to get into outer space? Not like literally, but figuratively speaking, getting away from all the gravity and negative suppressors of people and things that can mess with you. When can you get that amount of money or that amount of whatever it is? And he said people aren't ready for that discussion. He said that's just something the answer doesn't people don't like the answer to that question and I'm like, well, what would it take? You know? And I started thinking about rocket fuel. Rocket fuel is what it would take. Take it all that stuff, converting it and fuel your way up there. And then once you do that, you remove all that stuff out of your way. There's nothing to stop you and you become unstoppable and indestructible. And that's the thought that started going through my head and I started obsessing about it. I'm like, I got to write this. So when I did that, I'm like the only person that would make sense to be writing the forward for this book is Grant. I don't know if he does afterwards. I don't know if he charged me. I don't know anything. I'm going to make it happen, though. And that's what I started thinking all the time. I just dwelled on it, wrote it down and. Book is almost done, and I made a phone call and there are some details that went into doing that and I just got done and his name is on the cover of the book is for Written Joe: Yeah, Mike: By Grant. Joe: Yeah. Mike: So that adds to credibility that I may not have had before, but the content in the book is just so powerful, man. It's just I actually can be honest with you about something like like I'm always honest, but like just totally transparent. I read that book over and over again during the editing process. Right. And I got so sick of it and because I've read it so much, but then I haven't read it in a while and I went back and my team, we go through in the morning and we'll pick a passage to read out of it just to see what what we come upon. And I don't even remember writing some of the stuff. I'm just like, wow, this is like this is really good stuff. Joe: That's cool, Mike: So it's a weird Joe: Yeah. Mike: It's a weird mind game when you're writing a book and then to see the actual finished product. It's a good time. Joe: That's really cool, yeah, I look forward to reading it, I it's, you know, just talking with you, I can tell we're in sync on a lot of this stuff. You're ahead of me because you wrote a book and I haven't done it yet, but I know that it's a good process to go through. Where did you figure out where you wanted to start in the book in regards to your life? Mike: So, you know, I started share my story that I share with you and I have other parts of my life in there, too, that are just crazy, blew people's minds. But I really what I did was I started writing in my phone while I was on airplanes and I would just write ideas in my phone and and I would write stories that happen in my life. And then my podcast, we transcribe the podcast episodes, the first few that were a monologue style, and we just created a framework. And then it doesn't look anything like it started. That's how I got started with it and just started, you know, what kind of what went into me, what am I made of? And I just went into that and started sharing it. And then the lessons that broke off from each of those things, because, you know, a lot of people have been through there's people that have been through a lot more than I have. But my story is pretty crazy. Like there's some stuff that happened to me that nobody could imagine going through. But I'm still here, brother, and I'm still going hard. Joe: I hear you. I see that and you brought up a good point and one of the videos that I watch where you said people discount their story, right? They don't think, why would anybody care? It's not that Mike: Yeah. Joe: Special. Well, when were you able to actually take your own thoughts as part of your own story and make that switch where you said, wait a second, you know, what I've gone through is important. If it can help one person in the world, that's value enough. I mean, when did you or did you not ever doubt that your story was powerful? Mike: No, so I would I never shared it and I saw Pete Vargas share his story on the 10x growth conference stage in twenty nineteen, I'm sitting there watching and this is the first big stage, I think, that Pete was on. He was nervous and scared and his face, you could tell, is sweating and he would tell you this. I'm friends with Joe: Mm Mike: Him, so Joe: Hmm. Mike: It's not something I'm talking about. Joe: Yeah, no, no. Mike: But I thought to myself, I'm watching that. I don't know who he was at that time, but he was telling a story about his father and he was like really connecting with me and the relationship and how he grew up in a rough spot. And then they came back together and how it all worked out. And I'm like, wow, this is just like powerful. I felt like everybody else disappeared in the place and it was just him talking to me. And I'm like, I need to learn how to do that. And if he can do it, I know I could do it. That's what went through my head. And I told the guys I was with when we got in the car afterwards, I'm like, I'm going to be on that stage. I'm going to share my story one day and I know I can do it. And so then I started sharing the story of one person, two people, five people. And they were like, that's all. I really can relate to that. Then I said, Well, shit, I need to go to ten million people Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: If I could do it and how can I do that? And that's when I started obsessing about getting known and sharing that story. And, you know, I was able to talk to Pete after that and actually learn from him how to share your story. And but I shared that that that story about seeing him in the audience and how everybody just disappeared and how he connected with me. And so it's pretty powerful stuff, Joe: Yeah, Mike: Man. Joe: That's really powerful, but that's got to be a little eerie to just be sitting there Mike: The. Joe: And all of a sudden it's just like a movie where everything around you blurs out and it's just Mike: Yeah. Joe: The two of you. Yeah, Mike: Yeah. Joe: That's incredible. Something real light like question I have for you. The logo is it is a logo. And I'm going to take a guess and I'm probably going to be wrong. And you're going to say, well, nice try, Joe, but does it have anything to do with the Lynch? Mike: So the sirocco, the blue. Joe: Yeah. Mike: Yeah, so it's just upside down, see, and in two hours that are, you know, for Cerak and then it just has a little dude in there holding up the world, if you can see him. That's what it has now. It doesn't. I Joe: Ok, Mike: Didn't see that. So linchpin, Joe: Only because Mike: Huh? Joe: When I read some stuff from you talking about, you know, in some of the verbiage that I read about you and on your website, you mention Mike: Yeah. Joe: The word linchpin. I can't remember the context, but it was. Mike: Yeah, no, you know what, I. Joe: And then when I looked at a picture of a lynchpin, I was like, wait, it is Mike: I Joe: Round. Mike: Got to Joe: And Mike: See what a picture of a linchpin Joe: You Mike: Looks like Joe: See Mike: Because Joe: Now Mike: Because, Joe: I have Mike: You know, Joe: You thinking. Mike: Like that's. Yeah, I got to look at this because maybe maybe, yeah, maybe it does, Joe: The. Mike: So I didn't design the logo myself I had professionally done, and maybe he had that in mind as well. Joe: Only because it's mean you could kind of say it a little bit. I don't know. Mike: Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying, Joe: Right, Mike: Yeah, Joe: It's Mike: No, Joe: Round Mike: I didn't Joe: With Mike: Have Joe: The Mike: That. Joe: With the thing through it, and I'm thinking, OK, well, maybe it's kind Mike: Yeah. Joe: Of hinting towards it and and I Mike: Now, Joe: Said, Mike: It was really just the sea Joe: Yeah. Mike: And the two hour and holding up the world and helping lift up the Joe: That's Mike: World, Joe: Cool, Mike: That's what Joe: That's even cooler, so you can Mike: The. Joe: Throw my idea right out the window, Mike: Now, Joe: But Mike: I Joe: I Mike: Like that, I like that. Joe: Do I do some upfront investigation of the person I'm talking to in the life and all of that stuff. And I saw that, you know, because you're doing your mortgages. And I saw that Jennifer is in real estate and I don't Mike: Yeah. Joe: Know if she still is, but. Mike: Yes, yes. Joe: So that's a really cool synergy between the two of you, first of all, I think that probably works really well. But just for the people in the audience who had a great relationship with their significant other, how important has that been in the balance of your life, especially what you went through as a young, you know, a young man being able to have that support in and you found the love of your life and it's you know, there's that whole synergy there between you. Mike: Yeah, I mean, it's it's everything, I mean, like I said, I made a joke about trying to earn her spending with that, but then on the day she does a great job, she did she was a stay at home mom for a while until our youngest was in school. And then I said, you know what? I'm going to try to you know, we've got to figure out something because I'm giving deals away Joe: Uh huh, Mike: To people. Joe: Yep. Mike: And, you know, it would be great if you get a license and she ended up doing it. And she's just the type that if she gets into something, she goes hard with it. And she did great the first two years, just fantastic. I didn't even realize how much money she made last year until I saw ten ninety nine. I'm like, wow, you did great. But she's just phenomenal and aligns well with our business. Obviously I don't do mortgages much anymore. Joe: Yeah. Mike: I don't do it all. I just I work on the business maybe an hour a day. My team runs the day to day. They do a fantastic job. And so but it aligns well, obviously in a lot of our people, their spouse got their real estate license, too, because it aligns so well. Joe: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mike: So, yeah, but but at the end of the day, we are you know, I'm very clear with what I'm trying to do, my dreams. And she is clear on the fact of her dreams and the fact that she's willing to support me and run through fire for me. And Joe: Yeah. Mike: It's just a great feeling because I can't do it without her, obviously. Joe: Yep, yep, I just wanted to sort of bring that up, because I think it's important I have the same sort of relationship with Joel Mike: And Joe: And Mike: It's Joe: My significant Mike: Awesome. Joe: Other. So it's Mike: Yeah. Joe: To me, it's super important. And with what happened with covid, you know, a lot of things just stopped. Right. And Mike: Mm hmm. Joe: Changes were made. And so she got furloughed from doing her day to day job and has not been brought back. But she's always had this dream of doing photography. And so now I basically have said to her, you are not going back and you are going to from this point forward until whenever the world ends for you, you're going to follow your dream. So I Mike: Awesome. Joe: Think it's important. Right. And to Mike: Yeah. Joe: Support each other and it's nice to see that you have that same relationship. Mike: Yeah, so, so, so important that it aligns I mean, so much conflict comes from just not being aligned with the mission, Joe: Yep, Mike: You know, Joe: Yep. Mike: And I think that people need to realize that their personal dream, their mission, I call it their purpose, their mission. It's it's more important than anything when it comes down to it really is. Joe: Yeah. Mike: And that's why it's so important to share that with your partner, to make sure that they're on the same page with you. Joe: So let's talk about that. I'm sure I'm probably older than you at this point, but we're Mike: Yeah, Joe: At Mike: Definitely, definitely. Now Joe: The. Mike: I'm 40, I'm 40 for some, I'm Joe: Oh, Mike: A Joe: My gosh, I'm so Mike: Young Joe: Old, Mike: Pup, Joe: I can't. Mike: But I am going on 18 years of marriage. This May so. Joe: Congratulations, that's awesome, yeah, Mike: Thank Joe: Joel Mike: You. Joe: And Mike: Thank Joe: I Mike: You. Joe: Are 20, I think, at this point. Mike: Ok, cool, congrats. Joe: Yeah, I turned fifty nine this past February, so, Mike: Oh, man, I Joe: You know. Mike: Can't tell. I really can't Joe: Yeah, Mike: Tell. Joe: Well thank Mike: Maybe Joe: You. Mike: That's why that's why you shave your head, because that way you can't see any Joe: That's Mike: Gray hairs. Joe: Exactly, exactly right. They got my eyebrows Mike: Hey, Joe: Are still dark, Mike: Look, I'm with you the way the. Joe: So do you ever look at where you are now and you look back and go? I mean, and I think we've talked about this with some of the great people, like, you know, we can bring up David Meltzer again because he's just he's like one of my mentors. I love the guy at the Mike: Is Joe: Death. Mike: Awesome. Joe: You know, what is what's the saying? Something like the the teacher. The teacher appears when the student is ready, Mike: Yeah. Joe: Right? Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah, teachers. Joe: Yep. Mike: Yep, exactly. Joe: And it's the same thing with life. Like things come when the time is right. And some people would argue against that. Some people would say whatever. But you just started on this path now, right. Something flipped when you're 40, when your stepfather passed away, it said there's you know, and you might have felt that your whole life because you people like you and I always were pulled towards something. Right. We're entrepreneurs. We've always worked towards a greater goal of whatever. Do you ever look back and go, God, I wish I had started this sooner? Or is it like, no, it's this is the time. This is the right time. It's happening now. You know, I'm interested in what your thought process is on that. Mike: Well, I'm curious, asking the question, you must have felt some kind of feeling about that in the past, maybe. Joe: I constantly go like I had, I chased another dream up until this point, and that Mike: Yeah. Joe: Dream didn't happen for me and I openly admit all the time that I didn't put in the work to make that dream happen. I'm Mike: The. Joe: I'm a trained you know, I went to college for music. So my whole life has been surrounded by music. And one day I was going to tour the world and be this famous drummer for and I always use the example because I love his music. John Mayer. Mike: Yeah. Joe: That never happened for me because I know now I can look myself in the mirror and go, You didn't put in the work. You didn't put in the Mike: Yeah, Joe: Tent. Mike: The commitment, Joe: Yeah. You Mike: Yeah. Joe: Didn't do the ten thousand hours. You Mike: Yeah. Joe: You would rather had gone down to the college campus bar and had a bunch of beers and chicken wings with your buddies Mike: Yep. Joe: Instead of going back into the practice room and spending another four hours at night. So I am fine with I get it now, but now Mike: Yeah. Joe: I'm trying to take like the rest of my life and make it amazing and live much Mike: Yeah. Joe: Bigger. And so I am at the stage right now doing that change, shifting Mike: Mm hmm. Joe: My my frame of mind. I know the world is abundant. I know that everything you know, I just have to look towards the good of everything. And the more I focus on the good and the abundance and the gratitude, more of it just keeps coming in. In the last two months, it's been incredible for me. And so and it's I always was the oh, woe is me. Like I work my ass off. Why am I not getting that? Why am I not Mike: Yep, Joe: Doing that? So Mike: Yeah. Joe: That's why I asked you this question Mike: Yeah, Joe: When that, Mike: Yeah. Joe: You know, was the shift with your with Mike: Yeah. Joe: Your father, your stepfather passing away and you just saying when you said you felt it in your heart, you were like, I need to do something bigger. Was that the pivotal point for this? Mike: Yes, it was, and I did look back and be like, man, I cannot believe when I started finding out things and becoming aware of things, I cannot believe I didn't start this sooner. I didn't know that. Like, I just felt like I had wasted I went through a period of time where I felt like I wasted time and time is so valuable. And I said, you know what? I don't know how much longer I have on this planet, but you know what, at this point, the window keeps shrinking. I got to pick up my urgency. I got to move faster. I got to demand more and be louder and be more impactful and be just more intense than I would have had to if I started a long time ago, that's all. And so at first I did look back and with some regret. But then I quickly got out of that and said, OK, what have we got to do to get this done in the window that I do have left? So, yeah, I definitely and that was the pivotal, pivotal point, of course, working towards it my whole life, not knowing it. Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, there's a story in the Bible and they made a movie about it with Steve Carell about Noah's Ark. You know, it was told over some years he took to build this big arc and he didn't really know why he was doing it, he was just being told to do it by God. If you believe in God, Joe: Hmm. Mike: Which I do, or if it's intuition or whatever. And he got these animals and people were laughing at him and discouraging them and he just kept doing it anyway and building a ship in a place where there's never rain. Joe: All right. Mike: And did it make sense, it didn't seem to make sense at the moment, but he kept doing it and he kept being committed and doing it and doing it and doing it before you know it. The rain came, washed everybody away, and he survived with all the animals that he had and his family. And so I look at that lesson and I started to see this now. I started to see that the things when I'm committed and obeyed to my purpose, my mission, and I filter things through that, whether it's the people I hang out with, my actions, my words, my thoughts, my environment, when I start to filter through that mission. I'm obeying what I'm supposed to be doing and things just magically work out and I start to see opportunities everywhere, but when I don't do that, they're missing. And so you don't need to know what the end game is necessarily. You should be shooting for something, but just be looking for the opportunities. As long as you're obeying your mission and filtering everything through your purpose or mission or whatever you want to call it. Joe: Yeah. All right, well, that makes me feel good that I'm not the only one that had some regrets, so thank Mike: The. Joe: You for being vulnerable and saying that because I definitely have gone through it and I have like I said, I'm older than you. So I think, you know, think, Mike: None of us are alone, Joe. None of us are, you Joe: Ok. Mike: Know, I've anything that you go through, there's somebody else out there experiencing it for sure. Joe: Right, and I think that's what you're a lot of what you talk about is it's so important to share your story because it literally could help one person, which would be a huge help. You never know where they are in their state of mind. And if it lifts them, that's awesome. But imagine being able to help tens of thousands of millions of billions of people. Right. So I understand that's what the goal is for people like us who want to do that. So I I wish you the best of luck in doing that. And and same Mike: Thanks. Joe: With myself. Mike: Yeah, Joe: They've Mike: You, Joe: Got Mike: Too. Joe: To get it done. Mike: That's right, Joe: Ok, Mike: That's right. Joe: So you said something earlier about the book, which is the name of the book is Rocket Fuel. And you said it's May, May 3rd. Mike: Yeah, May 3rd, Monday, May 3rd, it's coming out on Amazon, and, you know, it should be a best seller based on we have we presold it. So I'm thinking that it's not going to have a problem being a best seller, number one best seller. Joe: Yep. Mike: What we shall see. But I'm going to do a bunch of lives that day, Instagram and Facebook lives, and just have some fun with it Joe: Cool. Mike: And celebrate. Joe: Ok, cool, so let's talk about it a little bit. Mike: Sure. Joe: You said something earlier that I thought was really cool, which was taking you said something about taking whatever comes in and not putting in it in the trunk, but putting it in the fuel tank and making rocket fuel. So explain Mike: Yep, Joe: That again Mike: Very Joe: To me, because Mike: Good. Joe: I I loved Mike: Yeah. Joe: It when you said I was like and I didn't even write it down. Mike: Yeah. Joe: I was like, no, that's got to go up here in my brain. So I would love to Mike: Well, Joe: Hear that again. Mike: Well, when you want something in life and things come your way to stop it or slow you down, if you remove a one thing, obviously that's going to help. But removing is not good enough for me. So I take all that stuff. Haters, people that discourage me laughed at me. What I'm trying to do, screw ups of my own people trying to screw me, all that stuff I just stored in my fuel tank. And usually people put it in their trunk and that weighs them down. You know, most people quit on their dreams because other people are talking Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: About them and saying, no, you're not the same. Why are you doing that? In all kinds of different things? I take all that and say, you know what, like here's an example, by the way, I stored in my tank, my fuel tank, to convert it into rocket fuel rather than my trunk, where it weighs me down. And some of the people closest to me, you know, like some of my business partners and friends and they know who they are. I talk to them about it. And I said, you know what? You keep saying the stuff like, hey, why don't you go do your podcast? Hey, you know, just this stupid digs like that, right? At the end of the day, they're trying to get at me, but they're really just talking about themselves, reflecting upon themselves and the fact that they should be doing that and they're not. And so I know that. And I tell people, you know, you want to say that, great, you're not going to achieve what you think you're going to achieve because all you're doing is giving me more fuel and I'm going to push it even harder. So when somebody says that to me, I'll do it on purpose, where I'll push harder and then I'll show it up in their face a little bit more to about. They're seeing so many posts on Instagram, I'll make sure I send it to them in a direct message, because that way it shuts them Joe: Yeah, Mike: Up Joe: Yeah, Mike: For Joe: It's weird, I don't Mike: Not Joe: Understand, Mike: Being. Joe: I don't understand, like people want to bring you down to their level, right? We deal with that all the time. And and social media has done so much to expose those people. And I just don't understand why they can't be happy for you. But they. Mike: Well, they can't because so I've already realized this in my mind now I know this, it's not them personally, it's their mind. And what it's happening is they just the subconscious mind just justifies where you are. It's trying to justify the truths that you told yourself and when something comes in to threaten that. You have to basically there there things fire off to protect their subconscious beliefs, and so it's not really them personally that's doing it and that's why you can't take it personal. You need to understand it. And then when they're doing it, you need to lay it out to them and let them know, hey, listen, I know what's going on here. I get it. You're where you are and you're trying to justify where you are. And you're saying this stuff to me. I don't take it personal, by the way. I use it as fuel. So thank you. And if you want to say more, continue to give me fuel. Great. But I would rather be able to help you. On break the like, just open up your truths and change them, change your beliefs. And expand your mind and see what you can achieve instead of worrying about what I'm doing and that's the way I handle it, I don't really get fired up or angry or take it personal. It's just a situation where they're going through it. And I think we've all been through it Zoom. I think I'm more understanding of it, Joe: Yeah. Mike: But I will not. But if they don't listen to me when I talk about that, I will not spend time with them because I'm not going to spend time with people that don't align with the mission. Joe: Totally agree. So the book Rocket Fuel coming out May 3rd on Amazon, who is this book for? Mike: Specifically, this is for people that have gone through things in life. And they feel like they keep getting held back or slowed down by things are stopped and they're just they're just done with it. They're they're at the point right now where they've had enough. They're getting sick of where they are and they want to do something about it. And they are looking for that breakthrough that that that superpower, because really it is it's like John Maxwell, House leadership, because this thing is so powerful. And I validated it so, so thoroughly that it's a law, it's the Rockefeller law. And so it's for people that are just sick and tired of being where they are. And they want to advance. They want to have a better life, life of their dreams. And I believe, like I said, my mission is all people are unstoppable to live in a life of their dreams. And so that's what's for. Joe: Yeah, and I saw that it seems like part of the focus is about past pains and obstacles and how you you basically help with the book to to change, take people and turn it around and say, you know, like you're saying, use those things as rocket fuel to get you to the next level. So don't lean on them. Don't have them in the trunk, don't have them as baggage, but instead take what you've learned, take what has happened and convert it to rocket fuel by doing whatever you talk about in the book. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Right. Mike: Yeah, the magic, the magic, here's the magic, right? The magic is when you have something happen and you get that feeling in your chest, that's where it hits me, by the way, like something Joe: Hmm. Mike: Bad happens and like this speed to which you can recognize that and convert it and look for opportunity. That's when you master the Rockefeller law. That's what it's all about, the longer time it takes, the more doubt creeps in, Joe: Yeah. Mike: A more negative energy creeps in, the more victimhood creeps in. And the missed opportunities happened during that period. So you want to shrink that window to as little as short as possible because we all feel it. We're all going to still feel it when something bad happens at first, but recognize it as fast as possible and start to look for the opportunity, not play the victim role, take responsibility for everything. Joe: Yeah, that's great. OK, I want to honor the time we have that we so we're going to do an hour or so. I want to just go through this real quick. So you have your own podcast, which is what are you made of? Which is on the wall behind you, where you interview. I assume, you know, other entrepreneurs and people that have amazing stories to tell and share. You release one week, twice a week with a human. Mike: Well, it started out once a week and then I had so many that I was doing, I had to do two weeks. Right now we're on a two week schedule. Joe: Ok. Mike: So, yeah, I just load up. I go hard, man. Like, if I see somebody I want to show, I go after him like an animal. I get them on the show and I don't care how many I've already had in the can. I just still just keep loading them up Joe: That's awesome. Mike: And uh. Yeah. So. Joe: Ok, cool. Besides that, you are you do some performance coaching, correct? You do some coaching in general, you Mike: Yeah. Joe: Are doing some speaking. You're going to continue to to build that Mike: Yeah. Joe: That part of your career. You're going to be on stage with Grant one of these days. Mike: Well, yeah, but so the coaching part, I want to do, the coaching part of switching that into, you know, I still have a couple of clients, but really focusing on the tech side of things and developing these entrepreneurs and young entrepreneurs into this tech world and using my specialty performance and business coaching and what have you into that, not getting paid directly for it. But but from the companies that I'm developing, Joe: Yeah. Mike: I'm really focused on that. And then I was on a 10x growth stage this past March. Joe: Oh, congratulations. Mike: Let me tell you, it took me two years to step on that stage. Joe: Hey, Mike: Thank you. Joe: That's awesome. The tech thing is it is there more that you can tell us about it or a way that people can find out about it or a. Mike: Yes, so the best thing to do, really, I mean, if you if you message me and follow me on Instagram, you're going to see all kinds of stuff coming out here very shortly on it. But I have a tech product called Blueprinted. It's being printed. This is my the one I co-founded. And this product basically, I looked at digital training and video training and I saw, like, how ineffective Joe: Mm Mike: It was Joe: Hmm. Mike: And the fact that only 20 percent of people actually complete the courses. So that means the people that are marketing these courses that are good at marketing are making money without concern for the Joe: Correct, Mike: Success Joe: Yeah. Mike: Of their student, their clients. And I thought that was an ethical problem. And I looked at why people get bored. They don't finish it, they get distracted, they don't retain the information. Or when they get done, they're like, what's the next step? Like, what am I supposed to do? Where do I put that Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: Where where do I take that and how long do I do that? And so I thought to myself, what if there's a way to have a project management based software technology that has a marketplace where people that have had success can come in and algorithmically step by step, put the success steps to what they've done, whatever vertical, Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: Build that blueprint in our platform and then sell it on the marketplace to to people that want to know how to be successful in that area. So it could be anything from a business to a podcast to digital marketing agency, whatever it is. Because if you look if you're going to build a house, you wouldn't want to watch a YouTube video. And on building that house, Joe: All Mike: You'd want the blueprints. Joe: Right. Mike: So this is a market disrupter, industry disrupter. And I can also see another industry being created from this, like there's web designers when websites came out. Well, there's going to be a lot of people that don't want to build their own blueprints. They want to take the content and give it to somebody and have them do the blueprint for Joe: Mm Mike: Them. Joe: Hmm. Mike: So there's going to be a whole industry just on blueprints. And so, yeah, this is a phenomenal thing. And it's coming out hopefully in the next 60 days, give or take. And I'm just fired up to get it in people's hands, man. Joe: That's great, man. You got a lot of irons in the fire. I like Mike: Yeah, Joe: It. Mike: But Joe: That's Mike: Thank Joe: Awesome. Mike: You. Joe: All right. So I want everybody to go and check out your podcast. The book is released on May 3rd called Rocket Fuel. Get in touch with you on on any of the social media. What's the best way to get in touch with you Mike: Instagram, Joe: On. Mike: Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, either one, but Instagram, it's Michy Cerak. Joe: Like you see rock on Instagram. Mike: Yep. Joe: Perfect. All right, man, this is a pleasure for me. I love talking Mike: Metohija. Joe: To another person Mike: Yeah, buddy. Joe: And it was great. And I really wish you a ton of luck with the book. I'll make sure when this episode gets released, I'll have a cover of the book. This will also go like you do on your podcast, will go to the YouTube channel so people will Mike: Thank you Joe: Be able to Mike: To. Joe: See it. I'll put the link to the Amazon in there. Anything else I can do to help? Let me know. But it was a real pleasure to speak with you. I appreciate Mike: Well, Joe: Your time Mike: Thank Joe: And. Mike: You. Thank you, Joe, I appreciate it was a great interview. Great questions and I really enjoyed it. Joe: Thank you, ma'am. You take care. Good luck with the book. Good luck with the podcast. Good luck with the tech software and Mike: Thank Joe: Everything Mike: You. Joe: Else. And just have an amazing year. Mike: Thank you, you, too, bye. Joe: Thank you.

Sean Swarner Interesting Facts - Learn how Sean not only beat cancer twice but went on to summit Mt. Everest and the remaining 6 summits and the north and south poles. He now brings hope to all who have cancer and those who have survived cancer with his organization CancerClimber.org. I loved, loved, loved this conversation with Sean and my hope is next July 2022, I will join him to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro and add the names of my own loved ones, who have had to deal with cancer and either survived or lost their battle with this awful disease. Thanks so much for listening! Joe Sean Swarner Speaker | Author | Performance Coach Adventurer | World Record Holder Author of: Keep Climbing: How I Beat Cancer and Reached the Top of the World Website: https://www.seanswarner.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanswarner/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sean.swarner LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanswarner/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/seanswarner Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, my guest is Shawn Swarner. Sean is an incredible human being, you're not going to believe the things that he has done already in his life. And I am so excited for this interview. As I was talking to Sean offline, I was explaining how the whole thought of summiting Everest is just in itself amazing. And then the way that it's been accomplished by Shaun and the adversity that he had to deal with growing up and just to to be this person that he is. So this is exciting, not just at a sports level or at a level of just doing all these amazing feats, but just just the human drive that this person has. So, Shawn, welcome to the show. Man, I am so excited to have.   Sean: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to do the.   Joe: So I like to start and people that listen to my podcast hear me say this one hundred times that I like to start from the beginning. And I know you probably told the story a million times already, but I like to set a foundation of pollution is where you came from, how you grew up, the main health factors that happen early on, how you got over that and then become who you are today. So if you don't mind, if you could at least give us as much of the back on the floor is yours so as much of the back story that you want to give? I welcome it all.   Sean: I appreciate that and I'm going through my mind, and one of the things that got me through was a sense of humor, which we'll get to, but I'm assuming you probably don't want to go back. Forty six years with my mom and dad got together, then nine months later.   Joe: Yeah, that's got no so that we could start right there. That's what.   Sean: So I came into the world crying and screaming and kicking. And   Joe: There we go,   Sean: I remember it like it was yesterday.   Joe: Right.   Sean: No, I. Well, I guess my I was born and raised in Ohio, just a normal Midwest kid. I remember back in the day before toilet paper was hard to find. We would TPE the coach's house and across country in the house. And then he installed a motion sensor lights. So we had to be a little bit more careful. And I just I learned to. Do things I wasn't supposed to, but I never got caught because I learned how to not get caught. So I was a kind of a studious growing up. But everything was it was completely normal until I was in eighth grade. And I was actually I was going up for a layup and basketball things and I came down and something snapped my neck and it sounded like like, say, for Thanksgiving, you grab the chicken bone and you're pulling on the leg like the ripping the tendons in the ligaments and everything. That's that's kind of what my knee sounded like when I was hobbling over to the stage that to sit down my whole body the next day swallowed up so much. My my mom and dad couldn't even recognize their own son. So they stuck in the local hospital. Willard, Ohio, population was five thousand, I think is maybe five thousand three now. So it's not much just change. Maybe eight stoplights or something like that, but they stuck in the hospital, they started treating me for pneumonia and it's very it's very difficult to cure cancer by sucking on a nebulizer. So I wasn't getting any better. But at 13, I was thinking, well, you know, I'm going to soak up all this attention. I got the cheerleaders coming in. I got my friends coming out of balloons all over my room.   Joe: The.   Sean: It was fantastic. But I didn't know what was going on in my body, which was advanced stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma. And I remember my parents didn't tell me that I had cancer. They told me that I had Hodgkin's. And I can only imagine what they were going through when the doctor told them that I had three months to live. The doctors approach to my my parents said your first born son now has an expiration date. And no one wants to hear that, and I've heard that one of the greatest pains, pains that you can have is outliving your your son or your daughter. So I didn't want that to ever happen to my mom and dad. And I remember very vividly where I was on the bottom of the on my hands and knees in the shower three or four months into treatment. And because of the treatment, I was bald from head to toe. I was on my hands and knees sobbing, just absolutely weeping, pulling chunks of hair out of the drain so the water could go down. And I was also thinking because I was getting ready for school that day, and that's when my hair came up all in that one time in the shower. And I was thinking about what my friends may have been doing at the same time, getting ready for school the same time I was.   Sean: And they were probably worried about the latest hairstyles being popular. If things that in my mind, looking back at it now, were trivial, it meant nothing because there were nights I went to bed not knowing if I was going to wake up the next morning. I mean, can you imagine what it feels like being terrified to close your eyes and fall asleep because you don't know if you're going to wake up. And that's that's what I had to deal with as the 13 year old. So I grew up with a completely different perspective. And thanks to the miracle of modern medicine, family support, prayer just in a will to move forward. I guess if I walked out of the hospital, a hairless, happy, bloated young man and I, I went back into being a quote unquote normal teenager, I guess if there is anything that's that you can say normal for a teenager. But the remission was short lived because I was going in for a checkup for the first cancer when they found a second cancer completely unrelated to the first one. And in fact, on the apparently I'm the only person to ever had Hodgkin's and ask start. And the chances of surviving both of those illnesses is roughly the same as winning the lottery four times in a row with the same numbers.   Joe: Radical Krutch.   Sean: So I think I'm a living, breathing, walking miracle, without a doubt, and. I remember going in for a check for that first cancer in one day, they found a tumor on an X-ray. They did a needle biopsy. They removed a lymph node, put in a hip and catheter. They cracked open my ribs, took out the tumor, are put in danger and started chemotherapy less and less than one day. And they diagnosed me with a type of cancer called ASCAN sarcoma. And that's basically they gave me 14 days to live.   Joe: And this is at age 60.   Sean: 16, so 13, the first cancer, 60   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Percent cancer, cancer, my my whole teenage years were just they were taken from me, from the cancer.   Joe: He's trying to just picture this in my brain of what happens during those years of like those prom, there's sports and it sound like you were active before 13 when you were first diagnosed. So you are definitely you look like someone that would be athletic. So you're missing all of that.   Sean: It's a green, it just makes me look like I'm.   Joe: No,   Sean: I   Joe: But.   Sean: Was I was I was incredibly athletic, and I, I think I because I was a swimmer, I started competitive swimming at maybe five or six years old. And I think I still have some records from the 11, 12 age group.   Joe: Still hold it.   Sean: Still   Joe: Wow, that is so cool.   Sean: Undefeated in the summer league, went to Nationals numerous times. I loved it, but I also think that's one of the reasons why I'm still alive, is because I looked at things differently from a competitive angle, and I pushed myself not to be the best, but I always pushed myself to be my best. And that's what I did, was going through the treatments, I I knew that when I was going through the cancer that I was going to have bad days. And I also knew I was going to have good days. So if today was a bad day, then I just I focused on tomorrow or the next day when I was going to have a good day. And I when I had those good days, I was I was truly living and learning how to be in the present moment.   Joe: Yeah, that's definitely one of the gifts that would come out of what you went through, which people struggle their whole life to eliminate the noise around them and to be present. Right. Because you literally only have this moment right now. So many people worry about what's on the schedule for tomorrow or the future or all of that. And some people even and I'm totally guilty dwell on the past. So I should have done that different. Where would I be today if I had gone left instead of right? So it's it's really hard to bring that in to be present and figure out how to do that. And I would assume that's a that's at least a good outcome of what you went through, is that it forced you to live every day the most that you could, knowing that this just this who knows what tomorrow will bring, if anything. Right.   Sean: Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that I do every morning before I even get out of bed, the instant I open my eyes in the morning, I don't I don't I never hit the snooze, because if you constantly hit the snooze over and over and over again, you're telling yourself subconsciously, I'm excited about the day. The day can wait. But if you turn it off and I actually have a smartwatch and just vibrate so it doesn't wake up my wife. So I turn I turn the alarm off and I lay there and I tell myself the past is done. There's nothing I can do about it. Tomorrow may never come, so no matter what happens today, today is the best day ever. And I have a choice, we all have a choice to make that day turn out however we want it to, and it starts with that morning intention.   Joe: Also, I don't want to get too far because I had so many questions. This is exciting. Like I said, I'm not going to let you go. So 16. So you're you were diagnosed and you're going through all of these treatments. When do you become and for lack of a better term, quote, normal where they say, OK, we've we've clobbered this thing, you're you're in remission and your hair is growing back. You're starting to feel like average every day. 16 year old, our seventh year, however long it took for you to become being normal.   Sean: That's a great question, and I was I was thinking, while you're talking and I honestly want to say that the answer is never.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Because no one's ever had these cancers before. No one no one knows what's going to happen to me.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: I go in once a year for a checkup and they obviously for the past 20, 30 years now, it's come back clean. So I literally see every time I go into to get my blood work done at my annual checkup, I see it as I have another year left. And I try to accomplish as much as I can in that year, so I don't think because of the way I'm looking at it, I don't think I'll ever have a normal life.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: This is my new normal. And I've just adapted to I think because of everything I've been through, I'm comfortable with being uncomfortable. So when when things are going well for me, I'm like, oh, something's going to happen.   Joe: Yeah, so that was I was going to ask you that I just turned fifty nine and I don't envy having that fact for lack of a better term, that cloud hanging over my head, knowing that I went through something, I beat it.   Sean: The.   Joe: But there's always the chance that it'll rear its ugly head. And so people that have to live with that   Sean: And.   Joe: Sort of pressure on them, that has to take its toll. I would I would assume it has to take its toll depending on how you deal with it. Right. And with everything. When you wake up, you have the choice of saying this is going to be a great day. It's going to be a bad day. And for some reason and you can help me with this and hopefully the listeners will really heed your advice on this is why do we always choose the negative part? Like everyone, people just love to complain about how their job sucks so they don't have enough money or whatever the case might be. And if they and I listen, I've gone through my whole life having sort of this always this negative thing, like, why didn't I ever reach this goal or that goal or this accomplishment? And I'm hard on myself about it. And I also know I didn't do the work to potentially get to some of those goals. So I'm starting at this ripe old age admitting to myself, OK, you just didn't put in the time. But now I'm only in the past few months I've really shifted my frame of mind to say I literally have everything that I need know. I love my life. I I love the person that I live with. Joellen, my life partner I love. I have everything that I need. And why would I just complain all the time of all the things that I don't have? And our mutual friend David Meltzer says you literally have to get out of your own way and let the universe deliver to you the abundance that's there. And we actually get in the way of making that happen. So why don't people choose the negative? That's what I want to know.   Sean: Absolutely, and I honestly, I was thinking of a couple of things, one. We do have we have we do have a choice, and when people start to get anxious, when people start to worry about things, it's because of of two words. What if. What if this happens, what if that happens? What if this happens? What if I get cancer again? But you learn to to realize that for me, it was a it was a house of letters. It was a six letter word that that I was allowed to have power over me. So. And recently, it's funny you mention that recently you were thinking of this, that with because I'm doing the same thing recently, I'm realizing that this word cancer. Had so much control and power over me because I allowed that to happen. And then I realized, why am I freaking out over a word? I mean, don't get me wrong, I completely respect cancer and it can be deadly and it oftentimes is. But it's the word that's making me freak out when I go in for my annual checkups. It used to be smelling sailin that would make me think of all these traumatic things that happened in my past. But it doesn't mean it's going to happen again. So when I realize I'm asking myself, what if. I'm projecting into the future and I'm giving my brain permission to go crazy, to come up with any any cockamamie imaginary thing that I can come up with. So when I when I think of my my treatments or what I think of my annual checkup and I constantly, constantly ask myself, what if I realized, well, what if I get cancer, but what if I don't?   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Perfect example.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: So I realized that the word itself means nothing. It's what I'm actually placing on that word and how I react to it. So when people hear cancer, they're like, oh, wow. But if this is what I did, I spared myself in the mirror and I said cancer about 50 times over and over and over again. And slowly it lost its power over me. And around thirty five or forty times I looked at myself laughing, what the hell this is? This is crazy. But it's lessened its power over and over and over. You just can't cancel. The more you hear about it, the more you get rid of it, you know, the less power it has over you.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And then why people are focused on on the negative so much. I think it's because unconsciously, people are allowing their brains to be programmed by outside sources. If you look at it, most people probably I would say 80 to 90 percent of the world, the first thing they do when they wake up, they grab their phone, they check their emails, they go on social media, whatever it might be. Either they do it before they go to the bathroom or while they're going to the bathroom. It's one of the. And what happens is if you're not paying attention to what you're consuming, because there's that old saying of you are what you eat, but in all honesty, it is you are what you consume.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: So if people are constantly consuming this, this this false information from the media and with the media, let me turn on the news. You don't have to watch it for more than 30 seconds to realize it's going to be depressing   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Because it's the same stuff all over and over and over again. You have to wait through, what, 60 different stories to see one positive story that takes a point zero five percent of the hour long program. So what people are doing is they're allowing their brains to be programmed by outsiders, outside sources. That outside source is just constantly bombarding their brain with negativity. However you can you have a choice to, like, wake up in the morning and have a positive affirmation, today is the best day ever. I write down my, my, my daily affirmation and I write down three things that I'm going to do and three things I'm going to try to do or and then at the end of the day, as opposed to turning on the news, I get my journal and write down five things I'm grateful for. So I'm essentially bookending my day on a positive note as opposed to, I would say, most of the world they book in their day on the negative note.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: So if you're constantly being bombarded in allowing negative thoughts into your brain, how do you think it's even possible to be positive?   Joe: Yeah, it's I don't know if you hit it on the head and it's just it's it's letting all of that stuff come in from the outside. You have a different perspective for what you went through. And and I think people just take for granted that they're alive and healthy and have a roof over their head and all of the simple things that we just don't we don't think about. And it's important to take a step back and look at that. And instead you take what if and you say, what if all of this stuff went away?   Sean: Now.   Joe: Where would I be right? Or what if all of this stuff tripled and double that? I had even more abundance because of this, this and this. But it seems like what you wish for, what you think about when people concentrate on the negative things, more of that stuff, it's just   Sean: Mike.   Joe: It's just naturally happens. And I was doing it for so long. And now that I've shifted, it's just completely changed. And it's I don't know if it's because it's so hard to understand that you can do that with your own brain and your own inner power to shift your mindset. And people, though, that's all that fufu stuff. And it's not. It's and I think that's why it's so hard to explain. It's so hard to get people to just give it a try. Just 30 days. Just think towards the most positive thing you can think of. And every day just try to eliminate as much negativity in your life will change. And   Sean: Right.   Joe: It's just really hard for people to understand, I think.   Sean: And I think that I mean, there are some there are a large percent of the population who think they're still positive when they're actually being negative to the brain and they don't even realize it. So a perfect example. You're walking down the street and you're telling yourself, don't trip, don't trip. You're going to fall on your face, but if you turn it around it from a different perspective and you tell yourself, stand tall, stand tall, walk strong. When entrepreneurs when people go into the stock market, whatever it might be, I guarantee you they don't think, oh, I don't want to lose money. No, that's state. That's that. People are thinking, I'm being positive. No, they want to make money to focus on what they want. And that's exactly what happened when I was in the hospital. The story of that 13 year old who was 60 pounds overweight in the bottom of the shower floor. Like I mentioned before, I didn't I didn't focus on not dying. I focused on living. I mean, can you imagine how it would have turned out if I kept telling myself, oh, don't die, don't die, don't die or climbing Everest. Hey, don't fall, don't fall, don't fall, don't don't stop. And same thing for runners and people doing anything athletic. I guarantee you people who are so don't stop, don't stop as opposed to make it to that spot. And then when you make it there, make it to the next spot. Same thing in life. People are saying never quit, don't quit your brain, just quit   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: As opposed to make it to that milestone, make it to the next milestone, make it to the next day. Make it to the next day. Keep pushing forward.   Joe: Yeah, that's a great point, and that's what I think really people should take away from this section of what we're talking about is that even when they talk about visualization, right, it's like you're you your body, your brain does not know whether or not you've accomplished something or not. Right. So why not tell it the best story you can write? Why not say that? I, I, I'm like, visualize you're on top of Everest. Like just visualize it until it happens. Right. It's just so you have to tell your own, your own body the best story possible. And I think that's this portion of what we're talking about should be a lesson to say your your body, your brain and your body is listening. So make sure you tell the right story. So can you take us back to your 16? You're going through all this. What's the next phase in your life?   Sean: A wild and crazy college life   Joe: Ok, where was that?   Sean: That was in Westminster College, and I think looking back at it, because my my teen years and my high school years were taken from me, have   Joe: You're going   Sean: You   Joe: To make up for   Sean: Have you ever seen a movie Animal   Joe: The   Sean: House?   Joe: Absolute.   Sean: There you go. And I was Bellucci. I had a wonderful time   Joe: Nice.   Sean: And I wouldn't change a thing. And I started off molecular bio thinking I was going to cure cancer by splicing genes. And I took organic chemistry and immunology. And it's it's pretty difficult to pass those classes when you don't open a book and study. So. So I actually switched to psychology because I was taking a an introductory psych course while I was going through the immunology class. And I really found it fascinating. And I started thinking, oh, well, maybe there's something here where I can help cancer patients and cancer survivors move on with their lives because it's not an individual disease. It affects everybody in the family thinking, OK, well, I have this great insight. Took the GRE, went to Jacksonville, Florida, to go to work on my master's and my doctorate. And then some things happen. I was working for different jobs, trying to go through my doctorate, which is just ridiculous. I mean, just to focus on education. Wow. So at some point I decided that I hadn't dealt with my own issues. Because of what I went through, I never even considered what cancer did to me and how I wanted to quit on the other end, because in college I just I left it behind. I didn't even bring it up. I mean, there I dated some girls and I was thinking, OK, well, how do I bring up that? I'm a survivor. It's not like, you know, dinner conversation. Oh, you know, how how how's your wife and how is your dinner? Oh, I had cancer. You know, he just   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Can't do that.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: So I was so worried about I didn't know what to do. I just I just I forgot about it. So then in grad school is thousands of miles away from Ohio. And it was the first time I actually stopped and looked myself in the mirror and ask myself those deep questions, you know, who are you? What do you want from life? What's your purpose? So I just did some deep, deep understanding of who I was, and then I realized, OK, I had been given a tremendous gift of the mind body connection, and I wanted to help and give back to cancer patients in the cancer world. And that's what I did, more research and more research and kept getting bigger and bigger and thinking higher and higher and like, OK, well, how about we use the biggest platform of the highest platform in the world to scream? Hope the guy. Great. Let's let's go climb Everest. Moved to Colorado just because, like the highest point in Florida is the top of the for the Four Seasons Hotel in Miami.   Joe: And   Sean: So I moved to Colorado, Rocky Mountains   Joe: I love.   Sean: Because I know I don't know too many mountaineers who live in Florida.   Joe: No, no, but it's also.   Sean: So I moved to Colorado and I trained in and literally nine months later flew over to Kathmandu, Nepal, and headed up Everest as the first cancer survivor to some of the highest mountain in the world.   Joe: So what year was this and how old were you?   Sean: Well, that was that was 2002, I actually submitted May 16th at nine thirty two in the morning. So night again almost 20 years ago, 19 years ago. I was twenty seven at the time. That's right.   Joe: And   Sean: Twenty   Joe: You   Sean: Seven.   Joe: Did this with nine months of training.   Sean: Nine months of training and when I first. Well, when I first moved to Colorado, I didn't even have any support. My brother came with me. We lived out the back of my Honda Civic and we camped in Estes Park for two months before we even got a sponsorship.   Joe: Oh, my gosh.   Sean: So we were I remember one morning we woke up, we were going to go climb, I think it's one of the Twin Peaks in Estes Park and we got about two feet of snow in August. And I was thinking to myself, because we're living in the car, that camping, it's like, the hell am I doing here?   Joe: Josh.   Sean: What did I get myself into? My my office was the library and a pay phone bank. So I was calling corporations like Ghatak and Karvelas in the Northeast saying, hey, I'm a two time cancer survivor with one lung and I'm going to go climb Mount Everest in 10 months and I need your help. Ninety nine doors closed in my face.   Joe: Really, that's   Sean: At.   Joe: So surprising that your story is so unique that that one that triggered people to say yes more often.   Sean: But they didn't think it was even possible.   Joe: I guess,   Sean: They thought   Joe: Wow.   Sean: It was physiologically impossible to do that with half your lung capacity, so they like, like I said, nine out of 10 people. I mean, hey, you know, this is my story. Click And I thought it was a joke. So   Joe: What?   Sean: I. I actually have both lungs, but there's so much scar tissue from the radiation treatment, there's really no oxygen transfer. Yeah. So   Joe: So   Sean: It's   Joe: There wasn't removed, it was just   Sean: Like.   Joe: It's just collapsed or   Sean: Now.   Joe: If that's the right term, but   Sean: That's   Joe: The scar tissue,   Sean: A perfect term,   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok, and this that was from the age 16 to one. A lot of the chemo and radiation was done. That's when it happened.   Sean: Exactly.   Joe: Did you have it? Did you also have chemo and radiation at 13?   Sean: I had chemo the first time and chemo radiation the second time.   Joe: Ok, and so it just affected the one long in the sense that it just created just the scar tissue over   Sean: Correct,   Joe: It where it wasn't. So   Sean: Correct.   Joe: It doesn't really work at all.   Sean: Not not really. In fact, in January, I had a little scare, they think it's a long term side effect from the radiation where I had some spots in my back removed and now I have another another starless by about six inches long where they had to go remove that. But if that's all I have to do, the first cancer, the second cancer is 16, 17, and the now 46 year old. Cut it out. I'm good.   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok, so we are. You said what was the date again,   Sean: May 16th.   Joe: May 16th of two thousand and two,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: And you were twenty seven years old, OK? And so you trained nine months before you decided you said, I'm going to go do this. So you you set aside nine months to get ready for this.   Sean: Correct.   Joe: Ok, so does the training. Is the training the stuff that I saw in some of the videos where you're you're pulling a sheet behind you and and whatever, your pull tire's up a hill and like, how did you figure out how to train for such as that?   Sean: So that was actually when I when I went to the North Pole a couple of years ago, but for training going up to up Everest, there's lungs Long's peak, which is 18 miles round trip, and it's it's fourteen thousand two hundred and fifty six feet. And I eventually worked my way up to climbing that peak once a week with 100 pounds of rocks in my backpack. So I would train myself and I'll go up onto that peak and into the Rocky Mountain National Park in a bad day, thinking that a bad day on Long's peak was probably better than a good day on Everest. And what I do a training for, for anything like the North Pole, the Hawaii Ironman, I did that. I train harder than I think the event actually event is going to be for two reasons. I get my body in shape, my mind in shape, but also I'm thankful I don't have to train more and I'm more excited about the actual event.   Joe: Right. That's crazy. So what is a normal when you're when you're training for something like that? What what would be a normal day in Sean's life? What time do you get up? What kind of stuff do you like? I can't even fathom something like this. I just   Sean: Well.   Joe: Got done skiing and snowboarding in Utah. I got home last night. I went with the old my oldest friend. We went from elementary and junior high and high school. And   Sean: Now.   Joe: Our families were friends and his father was my dentist. And so he said, I'm going to snowboard spring skiing. I haven't been skiing in twenty five plus years.   Sean: Now.   Joe: Like, come on, let's go. And I was a good skier a long time ago and yeah, I just can't imagine what it would take. My legs were shot. So what does it take. What's Seans the day in the life of of what you do.   Sean: Well, I'm going to challenge you again, then, what are you doing July twenty, Fourth to August seven?   Joe: I saw that and I was like, God, I want to do that. So   Sean: So.   Joe: Explain. So since you're talking about. Explain what that is before we talk about your daily routine. So   Sean: Well,   Joe: Explain.   Sean: Yeah, that would lead into it, because I everybody every year I take a group of Kilimanjaro as   Joe: That's.   Sean: A fundraiser for cancer charity, and what we do is we actually we pay for a survivors trip. And then it's the responsibility of that survivor to raise funds for next year's survivor, kind   Joe: Oh,   Sean: Of   Joe: Wow.   Sean: Paying it forward. Anyone can go. We just fund the survivors trip. And this year we actually have enough funds to send to survivors. So I'm hoping with those two survivors, there isn't. They raise enough funds to take three and twenty twenty two and then maybe five and twenty, twenty three and so forth up to. I'd love to take 15 people, 15 survivors for free every year at   Joe: Wow, that's   Sean: All   Joe: Incredible.   Sean: Costs. But for Kilimanjaro, let's say I would, I would wake up and about four miles from here we have a set of stairs that are pretty steep and there are two hundred and I live at I want to say sixty, sixty four, sixty five hundred feet. So I'm already an altitude which helps a lot.   Joe: Is   Sean: I   Joe: It?   Sean: Wake up in the morning before sunrise and eventually I will do that. That set of stairs 10 to 15 times with about 70 or 80 pounds of rocks in my backpack. So you're talking what, two thousand, maybe, maybe three, four thousand steps up and down in how many stairs are there? The Empire State Building. I think there's one thousand something so   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Less than I did.   Joe: Right. Wow.   Sean: Then come back, wake my wife up, will do some yoga, eat breakfast, come here to do some work on my laptop, and then I'll probably either do it depending on the day, either rowing, lifting or running, and then on the weekends go out and do a 14 or something like that and a 14 year, a fourteen thousand foot peak. But I also have a sponsorship through a company called Hypoxic Go   Joe: Check.   Sean: Where there's this machine. I call it Arcudi to like R-2 because it's tiny and it actually filters out oxygen to simulate altitude. So I'll I'll do the yoga, I'll do the rowing machine or and I'm doing this because it's a mask of   Joe: For those of you who are listening, he's putting his hand over his face.   Sean: Just randomly. That's that's what I do. And I work out, I,   Joe: That's right.   Sean: I, I'll do those workouts at home on a mask that's connected to this machine and I'll end up doing these workouts at nineteen thousand feet. So what I'm doing is I'm pretty acclimatizing my body because I have to make up for the lack of my right lung because when you get into altitude there's less oxygen, you know, it's spread out, spread out further. And when you get to like if we left, if we went from here to the top of Everest, we'd be dead in five minutes just because of the lack of oxygen. So I treat it and I try to pre acclimatize myself. And when we go to Kilimanjaro, I tell people my training schedule and like, I could never do that. Well, remember, you're training for yourself. I'm training for me and ten other people.   Joe: Right.   Sean: So   Joe: Right.   Sean: This if you're interested, this would be my 21st summit of Kilimanjaro.   Joe: That's incredible in regards to what you eat, are you like a very strict like is everything that you do? Very strict and regimented.   Sean: Not not everything, I mean, I give myself some leniency sugar during the week, I don't do on the weekends   Joe: Ok.   Sean: On Easter. Yeah, I have those little malt balls, you know, the Easter Mother's Day. But for the most part, I mean, no sugar. See, what did I have just for lunch? My wife made a salad. We had some chick like a chicken, homemade chicken salad. We're very conscious of what we eat. We stay away from the sugars. No. And that means no white pasta, no white bread. I love I've always loved broccoli. I just eat healthy.   Joe: Right.   Sean: Every once in a while I'll have a burger or steak, but, you know, maybe once a month.   Joe: Beer, a glass of wine, no.   Sean: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I   Joe: Ok,   Sean: Like I actually I brew beer at home too.   Joe: Ok, OK,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: It's great because when I travel you know, I make the beer, I come back two weeks later I'm like, oh beer.   Joe: There you go. OK, cool.   Sean: Oh.   Joe: So were you afraid going Tavaris like, I can't I can't even imagine I'm telling you to sit here and talk with you about this. I I've watched like we've talked about before, we actually started recording, watched the shows, the different movies or documentaries about it and the getting frostbite and people getting pneumonia and their sister, their body shutting down. And they're having to have the tip of like my nose is red right now from being sunburned and windburn from Snover. And I'm like, I don't I can't even fathom all the things that must go through your brain. And then watching where you cross over on that, I don't even know what it's called. You think I know after   Sean: Remasters   Joe: Watching.   Sean: Have.   Joe: Yeah. The with the ones with the ladders. Right. I don't know how many of those you have to cross and I just I don't know. And then the spots where I don't even know if this is something people point out on the way up or on the way down. But that's where we had to leave so and so like at the all those things go into your brain and you don't want to be the weak link in the chain. Something happens to you and then all of a sudden other people have to descend, like, I don't even know how that works. So, I mean, arriving at base camp must have been just like incredible and scary as hell. I've been like, oh, my gosh, there's no turning back here. It is base camp. And I'm and I said, I'm going to do this.   Sean: I think for me, I obviously was focused on the summit, I wanted to get to the top like everybody else who goes over there, but I think I was more focused on enjoying the whole process because literally when I got to base camp, every step outside of base camp was my personal record for altitude. I had never been any higher than base camp. But so every step was higher than I'd ever been, so   Joe: What   Sean: I   Joe: Is   Sean: Am.   Joe: What is base camp at?   Sean: Seventeen thousand six hundred feet.   Joe: Ok, and you and you're saying this machine you use change you at nineteen thousand.   Sean: But I didn't I didn't have that machine before   Joe: Oh,   Sean: I.   Joe: Wow.   Sean: So the highest I have ever been was just around just below fourteen thousand five hundred feet, which is the highest mountain here in Colorado.   Joe: That's correct.   Sean: Albert.   Joe: Wow.   Sean: And when I got to the summit of Everest, I mean, it was double the whatever, the highest point I'd ever been. But I knew that I was so focused on, you know, you asked me about being afraid, there were times that those little. Negative seeds got planted in my brain, but I didn't want them. I didn't let them grow and I was very mindful and very aware of when those thoughts came in my brain, because looking back at the same analogy of that young boy on the shower floor, I focused on living as opposed to not dying. And when I when I was crossing the ladders on on the glass across the crevasses, I wasn't focused on, hey, don't fall in the crevasse. I was focused on making it to the next side. And when we passed the dead bodies, I stepped over a number of dead bodies. I just I tried to not ask myself the question, I did this when I got back down. Why did he die? Why would nine? And what's the difference, like, why would I why would I be worthy and he wouldn't be. But it's it's like anything in life where you just don't know sometimes. Why did I get cancer? I don't know. It's a whole question. Why me? Why me? Well, the fact of the matter is, it was me. So deal with it. Why not me?   Joe: Yeah, I've had this conversation with other people on the podcast who have gone through some adversity. I you know, I feel like that adversity has been given, fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, because the outcomes of things that you've learned through what you've gone through have created this person, this mental strength, and someone who is very happy day to day or other people, just no matter, they could be having the most amazing life and they still complain. But I feel like, you know, the adversity has been given to people with strength, and I'm not sure if that's true. It's something I made up of my own brain because I think I'm such a wimp that I cut my finger. I start like I don't know how I would deal with what you've gone through, what other people around me have gone through. So that's what's my own little story, I tell myself. So you just didn't choose me because he knew I couldn't handle it, so.   Sean: But but you never know what you can handle until you're put in that situation.   Joe: Right.   Sean: And people always say say things like that all the time, I don't. My God, I have no idea what I would do if I was ever in your situation. You don't know.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And you'd be amazed at how much you can actually handle when you are in that situation.   Joe: Yeah, that's incredible. OK, so you're at base camp and how many are you in? I don't know how you travel if there's 12 or 15 or whatever the number is. How many are there with you going up?   Sean: So, as you probably know, a normal Everest expedition could I mean, it could be 20, 30 people.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: A number of sardars Sherpas, you name it, and clients. I had my brother at base camp, a cook at base camp, two Sherpas and me, and that was it. We were I say I was we were on a shoestring budget, but we didn't even have shoelaces. So we.   Joe: Did   Sean: It   Joe: You end   Sean: Was.   Joe: Up ever getting sponsorship before you left?   Sean: I did in   Joe: Ok,   Sean: One of   Joe: Good.   Sean: Them was Ghatak, one was Capello's, and   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Believe it or not, I didn't even have a summit suit a week before I was supposed to go up for the top. And just my crazy luck. And I know it's not like it was by the big guy upstairs, but the north face came in with my my summit suit and it actually said Shantz Warner Everest base camp on the box. And it got to.   Joe: Wow, that's crazy.   Sean: It's like two or three days before I was supposed to go up in the sun at my summit suit came in.   Joe: That is nuts. Wow. All right, so when you start out, how long does it. How long should it take you or how long is like the most that you can spend up that high? Like, is there a period of time that you have the summit? And I know it's due to weather, too, right. You have to sometimes   Sean: At.   Joe: Just go. We can't make the attempt today. The weather is just not good enough. So what did it end up taking you from base camp to summoning Everest?   Sean: So a lot of people don't understand that when you get there, you don't go from base camp and go up to Camp One, spend a couple of days there, go up to camp to spend a couple of days there, three, four. Same thing from the south side. We actually there are four camps and then with base camp there.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: So we arrived at base camp April 8th and I summited May 16. So almost a month and a half. The whole time we're going from base camp up higher, establishing different camps and then coming back down so that that does two things, we go up with a full back, a pack drop off stuff and then go back with an empty backpack, go back up with a full pack your stuff and go back down. So, like I said, does two things. It actually transports the gear and material that we need to each camp, food, gear, whatever. But it also is getting our body adjusted to the altitude.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: So then we would go up and down, up and down, up and down after we established three and then four when when you get to camp for your before you get to Camp four, you pay attention to the weather. And there's a weather window because everybody has seen that that quintessential picture of Everest with the snow plume   Joe: Yep,   Sean: Blowing off the top.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: That's because that's because the sun is puncturing the jetstream, the just   Joe: Uh.   Sean: Tunnels, the summit, two   Joe: Huh?   Sean: Hundred three hundred miles an hour. So it's impossible to climb on that. So what happens is pre monsoon season, there's a high pressure system that pushes the jet stream north. And that's when people sneak up on top of Everest and come back down. So you see on I guess you don't look on a map, but meteorologists know and they give you a weather window like it's usually mid-May. For us, it was supposed to be May 15th where the weather window was good. But for whatever reason, that may on May 14th, we were supposed to move to May 15th and go up for the summit. I was at camp three and I was suffering a mild form of cerebral edema, which is altitude induced swelling of the brain. And I couldn't move. So every single other expedition who was on the same schedules, us went from Camp three, moved to Camp four and went to the summit that night. The next morning, the winds were howling. They came down the aisle retreat, and they lost their opportunity to climb. I slept on an oxygen that day. The next morning we went up to camp for summited on May 16th, a day later, and there was just a slight breeze in the top. We spent about 30 minutes up there to forty five minutes, which is unheard of.   Joe: Who's medically trained to tell you what's wrong with you or do you just have to know, like there's no one is like in your own little group, it's you just have to know what's right or wrong with you and how to fix it.   Sean: In my group, yeah, I mean, in other expeditions are expedition doctors, you know, everybody there were we made friends with some people from Brown University who were doing a study up there. And it was it's actually really funny. They're doing a study on how the altitude affects the brain. And they gave me this book and I became a volunteer to help with the study. And I was at Camp three when I was acclimatizing and not going up for the summit, but just sleeping at Camp three is going to come back down the mountain like a little Rolodex thing. It's like the size of an index card and you flip it back and on the front of it, you're supposed to pick out which object was was different, which which one didn't belong. And it was like a small triangle, a large triangle, a medium sized triangle and a Pentagon or something like that. Right.   Joe: So.   Sean: And so and each each are different. So big, medium, small square in a circle you pick out the circle. But it was funny. So I get up to camp three and I'm radioing down to them. All right. You guys ready to go? Yeah, we're good. So I flip it over and I'm thinking I'm going to have some fun with this.   Joe: All right.   Sean: So I go page one, the Penguin Page to the House, page three, the dog. And keep in mind, they're all geometric shapes. So   Joe: All   Sean: I think.   Joe: Right, to the naming of animals, as they say, oh, for.   Sean: It's like I take my thumb off the microphone and there's a long silence.   Joe: It's not.   Sean: And all of a sudden, Sean, are you feeling OK?   Joe: Right.   Sean: Like, yeah, why, what's going on? There are no animals.   Joe: That is so funny. Oh, my gosh, they were probably like, oh, we got to get a helicopter up there.   Sean: They were thinking, we need to get emergency up there and get him down off the mountain.   Joe: That is so funny. Oh, my gosh. So is it true that it gets backed up up there when people are trying to summit during a certain season?   Sean: It is now when I was there, it wasn't as bad   Joe: Check.   Sean: And also. A few years ago, there was a big earthquake and there used to be a section called the Hillary Step,   Joe: Yep, I   Sean: And   Joe: Remember hearing.   Sean: So it used to be a chunk of rock that used to hang out. And literally, if you took six inches off to your left side, you would plummet a mile and a half straight down. And there was that section where only one person could go up or one person could go down at a time, and that's where the bottleneck usually was. So with the earthquake, what I've heard is that there's no longer a Hillary step. It's more like a Hillary slope now because that giant rock has been dislodged. But from the obviously you saw a picture from a couple of years ago that just that long queue of people, apparently it's getting a little out of control.   Joe: And that's crazy. Would you ever do it again? Do you ever care about doing it again?   Sean: Well, as is my family or my wife going to hear this this time, I don't know if it calms down and it becomes less popular, I honestly would I would like to attempt it again without oxygen to see if it's possible to climb Everest with one lung and no no supplemental oxygen.   Joe: Who was the guy that did it with no, nothing.   Sean: Reinhold Messner, he's climbed, yeah, and then there's also a guy named Viscose who climbed the 8000 meter peaks. So it's been it's been done numerous times, but the first person who did it was Mesner. I believe.   Joe: No oxygen, it just all right. Yeah, I don't want to get you in trouble with your wife, so we'll just, well, not talk about it anymore, OK? I'm telling you, I can sit here and talk to you forever, and I want to respect your time. I don't want to run too far over. So besides everything you've done every day, the tallest peak on every continent at this point, is that true?   Sean: Correct. Still the seven summits,   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Yep.   Joe: Ok, and then along with that, you have this series of books that you're doing. Can you explain what that's about, what people find when they give each one of those books?   Sean: Oh, sure, yeah, it's actually it's in the infant stages right now, but it's called the Seven Summits to Success. And I just signed an agreement with a publishing company. We're producing we're publishing the first one which is conquering your Everest, where it helps people bring them kind of into my life and understand how I've done what I've done, not just what I've done, what I've done, not what I've done I've done, not what I've done, but how I've done what I've done.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And it's also it's very similar to what I just I put together called the Summit Challenge, which is an online series of individual modules, seven different modules walking people through. Utilizing their own personal core values to accomplish things like self actualization, and at the end they essentially find their purpose and it came from the concept and the idea where after a keynote presentation, so many people would come up and say, that's a great story, but a handful would say, that's a great story. And then followed up with a question, but how did you do it? And then looking at Kilimanjaro again, the average success rate on the mountain is roughly forty eight percent, meaning fifty two people out of 100 don't even make it to the top. And like I said, this this July with my twenty first summit with groups and our groups are at 98 percent success rate, double that of the average. So I was thinking, OK, well what's what's the difference? And the difference is I've been subconsciously imparting what I've learned going through the cancer because my first goal was to crawl eight feet from a hospital bed to the bathroom, and then I ended up climbing twenty nine thousand feet to the top of the world. So all those little things, those little insights that I've learned, I've been imparting on people in my groups. So we do something every day that's different to help people get up there. In the main, the main understanding that they get is understanding what their personal core values are. Because once you hold fast to your personal core values and you have an understanding of a deeper purpose, nothing is going to get in your way.   Joe: So in that kind of brings us back to when you left college and you decided that you're you're camping with your brother and then you decide you're going to do this thing to Everest. Right. Was that the beginning of this this portion of Shawn's life where you're going to do these things? But now there's an underlying what's the word I'm looking for this an underlying mission, which is you're you're doing this, I guess, because you like to challenge yourself. Obviously, you just want to you're so happy with the fact that you have been given this chats with   Sean: Right.   Joe: With what happened to you. You're going to make the most of it. So here I am, Sean Zwirner. I am so grateful that I went through two different types of cancer that easily either one of them could have killed me. One of them ruined one of my lungs. I'm still living. Not only that, but I'm going to make the most of every day. So you go to Everest, you do this, you accomplish that, and then you say, OK, that that's that's it. You went for the biggest thing on your first run. You would start out small. You just like, screw it, I'm going to Everest. And then after that, all these other things would be cakewalks, and I'm sure they're not. But then you did all seven summits. And now, though, is it the underlying mission is that you are you are the voice of cancer survivors and and what you do and I don't want to put any words in your mouth, so stop me at any moment. But is it like you're doing this to to to provide hope for them to say, listen, I not only did it twice, but I am living at the highest level of accomplishment and and I don't know what there's so many words I can think of that you just you want them to all think the same way, just keep pushing forward, get the most out of life. And I'm here to support you. And look at me. I've done it. I'm not just spewing words from a stage. I've literally gone out and done this. So I want you to be on this journey with me, both mentally, physically, if you can. Does that make sense or that I just destroy it?   Sean: No, absolutely, I I wouldn't I wouldn't personally profess that I am the voice of survivors if others want to think that that that's great. But I wouldn't I wouldn't declare myself that. But I have found a deeper purpose. And it did start with Everest, because when I made it to the summit, I had a flag that had names that people touched by cancer on it.   Joe: Yeah, I saw that, yep.   Sean: And that was always folded up in my chest pocket, close to my heart as a constant reminder of my goals in my inspiration, and I planted a flag on the top of Everest. I planted a flag on the seven summits, the highest on every continent. And I also planted a flag at the South Pole and most recently at the North Pole. And I think it initially started. With the concept of I don't want to say infiltrating the cancer community, but getting there and showing them exactly what you said, you know, being up on stage and saying, hey, I'm not just talking the talk, I'm walking it as well. I know what it's like being in your situation. I know what it's like to have no hope. But I also know what it's like on the other side. And I also know what it's like to scream from the rooftops that there's there's a tremendous life after after cancer and it can be a beautiful life. So a lot of people who and like I said, it started off with cancer, but now it's it's reached out to anybody who's going through anything traumatic, which is with the state of the world, is it's everybody now. So with with any uncertainty, you can use that, especially with my cancer. It wasn't the end. It was the beginning. So what the world is going through right now, it's not necessarily the end. It's not uncertainty. How we come out of this on the other side is entirely up to us. And it's our choice. And we can use all the trials and tribulations and turn that into triumph of success if we want. It is all based on our own perspectives.   Joe: So you come off of Everest and then there's your life now become this person who is going to continue to push themselves for because you obviously want to live this amazing life and you don't you just do love the adventure. You love the thrill of the accomplishment. I'm sure all of that stuff that any of us would love, like I went skiing for three days of twenty five years. I'm glad I'm still alive. Sit and talk   Sean: They.   Joe: Because trust me, I wasn't the guy you were talking about walking down the sidewalk and say, don't trip down. I was like, you're fifty nine. You break a bone now you're screwed, you're breakable. And I'm going over. These moguls go, oh my gosh, why am I here? How did you survive? How does someone like that survive financially? How do you survive financially that you now did that? Does that start to bring in sponsorships and endorsements and book deals and speaking deals, or is it just the snowball that happens? And how do you decide that this is the path your life is going to take?   Sean: You would think so, and I've been approached by numerous corporations where the conversation went, something like me telling them, well, I really can't use your product up in the mountains and doing what I do. They say, OK, we'll just take the money we're going to give you by which you really use but endorse our product. So if I went if I went down that path, absolutely, I would be living the high life.   Joe: Right.   Sean: But because I'm a moral and ethical person, I think.   Joe: So.   Sean: It's not nearly what you probably think it is, I don't have people banging down my door for a movie. I don't have people banging down my door for a book. And I think it's because most of the media that we see on television is is paid for media. And every time I reach out to a production company or a marketing company or a PR company, they're usually the first question is what? What's your budget? OK, well, how about the story? How about helping people? Because like I said, every morning I write an affirmation down, in fact, or was it just yesterday was I will give more than I receive. I will create more than I consume. And I think most people who don't understand that think that you're living in a state of lack. And maybe I am. But I'm also incredibly grateful for everything we have. And do I want my story out there? Absolutely. But I don't need to make millions and millions of dollars on it. And what I what I want to do is take those millions and millions of dollars and take cancer survivors up Kilimanjaro every year. I'd love to do that three or four times a year. So I'm always looking for people who can who can jump in here and help me out and share my story with others to give back to help people and help them believe in themselves and help them find their purpose, their their inner drive, their inner.   Joe: Is this is going to sound so stupid, so forgive me, so when you do this, this trek up Kilimanjaro, you do it in July, right?   Sean: Yeah, yeah,   Joe: It.   Sean: People should arrive at Kilimanjaro International Airport July 20 for.   Joe: Ok, is it cold up there?   Sean: It depends. That's a it's not a stupid question,   Joe: Really,   Sean: But   Joe: I   Sean: That's   Joe: Thought   Sean: Like   Joe: You were going to   Sean: Asking.   Joe: Be like, yeah, it's it's it's however many thousand   Sean: Oh.   Joe: Feet. What do you think, Joe?   Sean: But that would be like me asking you, hey, what's it like in snowboarding? What's it going to be like in snowboarding? July? Twenty Fourth. Twenty twenty three. I mean, you have a rough estimate.   Joe: I.   Sean: So in going up Kilimanjaro, it's one of the most beautiful mountains I've been on because you go through so many different climactic zones getting up that you start off in an African rainforest where it can be a torrential downpour. It's always green, but it could be a torrential downpour or it can be sunny and the sun kind of filters through the canopy and you'll see these little streams of light coming to the camp, which is beautiful. And then the next day, it's it could be sunny or rainy, but it goes through so many different zones. You just have to be prepared for each one summit night. However, yes, it's tremendously cold. It can be zero degrees or maybe even minus 10. But with the right gear, you're going to be fine. I mean, there's there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad year.   Joe: Well, here's a good question, and if someone was to go on this is how do they get that gear that they have to buy all that stuff?   Sean: You can you can purchase it or you can rent it over there. I've used the same group of people for the past 18 months, and if you're if you're never going to use a zero degree sleeping bag again in your life, just rent it for 30 bucks. You don't spend three hundred four hundred dollars to buy one. Or if you do buy one and you're never going to use again, give it to my friends, the Sherpas of who use it all the time.   Joe: Right, so basically somebody's going on this could, when they arrive there, get everything they need to make it happen.   Sean: Well, except for your boots and your underwear, you probably don't want to rent me underwear.   Joe: The point well taken. OK, go. So I want to ask you about the Big Hill challenge.   Sean: So great, the big Hill challenge is actually an abridged version of the summit challenge, so some challenges this really in-depth twenty one week program where you take micro challenges and utilize something that you learn and just incorporate into your daily life. The Big Hill challenge is going to be a three week challenge where I take a group of one hundred people at a time and work them through three weeks of little micro challenges to help them along.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: And they're both based on understanding and utilizing your personal core values.   Joe: Perfect. And these can be found on your website.   Sean: Yeah, you can go to the summit challenge dotcom event eventually, you can go to the Big Hill challenge dotcom,   Joe: Ok,   Sean: But every   Joe: Ok,   Sean: One or dotcom.   Joe: Ok, great, because I'll put all of this in the show, notes and everything else, I wrote this question down because I wanted to make it clear that besides your website, Shawn   Sean: Like.   Joe: Swane or Dotcom, you have the cancer Climategate.   Sean: Correct.   Joe: Can you explain can you explain that site to me and what the goal of that site is?   Sean: So cancer climber, cancer climate Doug is actually the organization my brother and I founded that funds trips for cancer survivors to kill javu.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: And actually, if we raise, my goal is to raise about two million dollars to have a mobile camp for kids with cancer.   Joe: Wow. That's   Sean: Because   Joe: Incredible.   Sean: You there are camps all over the country, all over the world, but oftentimes you can't get the survive or you can't get the patient to the camp because of the compromised immune system. So I thought, well, what if there's a semi truck that brings the camp to the kids?   Joe: Hmm, that's interesting. That's a really cool. And the reason I ask about coming on being cold is because Joel in my my better half of 20 some years survived breast cancer. It was lymph node sort of stuff. So taken out and be like God. But she hates the cold like she I would be so cold to do something like this with her. She just literally I mean, I don't know if she would go the last section to the summit because her cold do not mix. She's so happy here in Arizona and she never complains about the heat. So   Sean: My.   Joe: That's the only reason I ask that. So.   Sean: My wife was born and raised in Puerto Rico,   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Forty forty years of her life, and she went with me.   Joe: She.   Sean: She did. She hated the last night, but she's so happy she didn't.   Joe: So it's really just the one night that's the   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Coldest. So it's one night out. How long does it take to get from where you started out in the rainforest to the.   Sean: So the whole trip itself is a seven day trip up and down the mountain summit on the morning of the 6th, we leave the evening of the 6th, and then after we come off the mountain, we actually go we fly into the Serengeti and do a four day safari to the Serengeti.   Joe: And when you're staying on the way up to the summit, or is it just like caps right   Sean: But   Joe: There? Oh, so that's it. There it is.   Sean: The.   Joe: That's right. So the people that are listening to this on the podcast, you'll have to look at the YouTube video later. But he's showing me the actual   Sean: The.   Joe: Tents and. And is everybody carrying their own tent?   Sean: No, I actually, because I've been there so many times, we pay two porters per person to haul your gear up and all you have to worry about is your day pack some water, snacks, showers, your camera, sunscreen, hat, stuff like that. I don't want anybody carrying anything more than, say, twenty five thirty pounds up the mountain, but the sort of porters will actually give them the leave. After we leave camp, they'll pass us on the way.

I had a conversation with speaker, life coach and author Rocky Garza on life, the choices we make, our happiness and our individual pursuit our time well spent here on earth. We use me as the guinea pig and Rocky and I walk through my scenario, my situation, my thoughts and actions. It was enlightened and he brings up there really cool thought process about our choices and how there is always two truths and a lie and it's up to accept the two truths and how we take action with those truths. Once again, thank you very much for listening. I am humbled and grateful to be in your ears. Much love, Joe Rocky Garza Speaker - Coach - Author Author of: Kill Doubt Build Conviction Website: https://rockygarza.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rockygarza/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rockygarza LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rockygarza/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7ID8k8gJC9rR3_1ZuCGWEA Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hey, everybody, thanks so much for joining the podcast and I appreciate you listening and I have an exciting guest today. Rocky and I only met recently on clubhouse. We don't know each other that well, but for me, this is going to be an exciting episode. What he does speaks to my heart. We're going to use me as an example today. He's going to work with me during this conversation. And I'm going to ask him questions that any of you might be able to ask him if you'd hired him to coach you and to help you through whatever it is that you're working on. And so I'm very excited to have. Rocky Garza, thank you for coming on, Rocky. It's a pleasure to have you.   Rocky: Yeah, thank you so much, Joe. It is an honor to be here. It was fun being in in the room, a clubhouse together. And looking back now, I was trying to think about it this morning. Like, what room? What are we and where we even landed here. And I don't exactly remember even what the room was, but I know at some point you had mentioned and said something that I thought, you know what? I'm going to I'm going to reach out. I know I shot at the end and we went from there. But I was thinking this morning, how do we even land here? But you know what? I'm I'm the kind of person that. All I know is I was supposed to be here and something you said resonated enough to be able to say, I'm going to reach out and it's been less than 10 days and here we are. So I'm really glad to be here.   Joe: Yeah, that's perfect. It's the way it should happen, it should be that people resonate with each other. There's something that that they can mutually benefit from and then also help the rest of the world by serving in some way. So I'm excited about this. So I like to always start these off to give as much time as you need. But I like to do a back story. I like to know where you are, who you   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: Are, where you came from, where you are today. How did you get there from where you were.   Rocky: Yeah,   Joe: So if you don't   Rocky: Yeah,   Joe: Mind doing that, it would be   Rocky: Yeah,   Joe: Awesome.   Rocky: Yeah. Yeah, I would love that, I love that. I think so much, yeah. So I'm going to go all the way back to the beginning because I think there is value for all of us as we begin to begin or continue to kind of unpack who we are and what that means for kind of the steps and the actions we will take moving forward from our present day. I think I think we kind of have to go back to the beginning. And I'm sure we've all heard phrase like our origin story or in childhood as like. And so I think there's there's an immense value in our ability to do that. And so I was born in Kansas, but I only lived there for like two weeks. And then I moved back to Dallas. And so I don't claim Kansas other than it's on my birth certificate. But Dallas, Texas, has always been home for me. My parents got divorced when I was two and so my dad got remarried when I was seven. He's still married, has two boys, so I have two half brothers, but I never live with my dad. Growing up after my parents got divorced, I moved a ton growing up like like 13 times before I graduated high school just from either my mom's house, my grandparents back to my mom's to a different house, to back to my grandparents and so on. And really, a lot of that was like pre seventh grade. My mom's been married and divorced a few times, slash jobs, slash just life change.   Rocky: And so we moved. We moved around a bunch. I'm an only child, my mom's only child. So it's kind of just me and her slash me and my grandma immigrant, my grandfather. That's kind of how my life was growing up. And I went to junior high. I went to high school, graduated high school, went to junior college for a couple of years, mostly because I didn't know what I wanted to do and I thought I was going to go play football. And then at the last point, I was like, I don't even really like football that much. Like, why would I go do that for four years? That doesn't seem like a good idea. Anyway, I went to junior college for a couple of years, transferred to A&M here in Texas is where I went to college for my junior and senior year. Where I graduated from went there on a Fulbright scholarship. I'm not an academic and I barely graduated college. But somehow, via my survival tactics of charisma and words and being in the right place at the right time, I found my way into a full ride scholarship to college. After my first semester in college, I lost my scholarship because I didn't make grades. I didn't fail out of college, but I just didn't keep that GPA that you're supposed to have to keep or someone pays for you to go to school. And I look back and I kind of use that and there's probably, you know, a hundred pivotal moments prior to that.   Rocky: But but I always kind of lead up to that moment because I think for me, that was probably the first time as a as a semi adult, I guess I really wasn't adult. Yeah. But a semi adult to realize that was kind of the first pivotal thing in my life that kind of put me in a position to look back and recognize what decisions I had been making up into that point. You know, I think for all of us, I'm a pretty firm believer that whatever happens to us between the ages of six and 12 that we do to survive. And when I say survive, I don't necessarily mean life or death, but I do mean what we do to get by right now. Some of us, that is our story. But for many of us, it's not to say life and death, but survival is how did we form what we knew to be true about the world, test those theories and then find out they were, in fact, true. That's kind of the progression of our childhood. And so to me, that that that a six to twelve age is really foundational in that it's where we are abstracting things to see how they work. I learned between ages of six and 12, if I could out. Thank you. Outtalk talk you out with you out, shmooze you out, connect. You get to know you what I would call it invulnerability now is more a mature adult.   Rocky: I actually look back and say, call disclosure. I was actually not being about anything. I was just disclosing the same information to you. I was told everybody else, but I learned that if I could do that in such a way, it would allow me and in but also keep me safe enough that if you left or I left, you couldn't hurt me like the people in my past had right there. Like this fear of being left is fear of being abandoned, this fear of not being loved. I had found a way to navigate myself in such a way that I could keep myself away from you, but also convinced you we were close enough. Right. And I think this moment when I look at college and losing my scholarship was this moment of going. I'm finding myself. I'm twenty years old. I'm in college. I now have no money for school. I haven't talked to my dad in three years. I haven't seen my mom in a year and a half. I don't really have any really good friends because I've isolated myself in this weird dynamic of him. I close. Am I not close? What does it actually mean? And everyone thinks that I'm awesome and that they love me. And simultaneously I've never felt more alone in my life. And I think if I look at my life, this is not Saddam seven. And a lot of counseling, I feel pretty good about where I'm at today, OK, but I think as I look at that point in my life and go.   Rocky: All the things that I was doing, all the activity that I was that I was involved in, all the pieces that I was attempting to put together have led me to a place where I am the most alone, the most isolated and recognizing, the most unfulfilled that I have ever been. And yet. There has to be something else, there has to be something different than what I have been doing over and over and over and over, and so I don't know what the answer was. I just knew whatever I'd been doing, it ain't working. And we've got to try something else. And so, thankfully, I ended up finding a way to get my grandparents kind of stepped in and help me pay for college. And really from that point on, that was back in 2000, 1990. Sorry, sorry. That's not true. I was back in 2003, really from then until now. So the last 17, 18 years has really been for me, I think as I look back has been this journey of discovery, this this space of going how do I, one, discover and uncover who I am to find a way to believe that is good. So clarity is one thing, but confidence in that clarity is something totally different. And then once I believe it's good, how do I like actively and then actually do something about it? How do I use that in my life? And I end up going to a place called Sky Ranch here in Texas.   Rocky: It's a summer camp for kids. And I worked there full time for a few years right out of college. I was actually on pastoral staff at a church for about three and a half years. After that, I, I met my wife. We started a photography business back in 2010, and we did that full time together for about five years. And then I started the company I have now about six years ago. And so and that's that's a fast track of 15 years there. But in all of that, it was this discovery. Identify. Look to see if it actually is good, if I believe it's good, how do I uncover the wounds? You know, there's there's a kind of cheesy phrase I say often, but it's like in order to dress your wounds, you have to address your wounds. And I think for me, in that period of time, it was like me addressing my wounds, like, hey, how many times did somebody to say, Hey, bro, you're bleeding? Before I was like, look at look at that. That is what that is like. And I think the last 15 years has been this these continual perpetual moments. And it sounds a little bit like sad and hurtful. And this definitely moments of sad and hurtful. But how beautiful does it feel the moment we recognize we have a wound and we address it and then we address it? How much better is that? Right.   Rocky: That's the only way healing can happen. And so for me, that career, such job I have now, for me as a marriage of my life experience, how do I take everything that I've seen and known growing up? How do I marry that with eight years of full time ministry, which I just defined as deeply caring for people with a fundamental belief that I think people are good and then marry that with eight to 10 years of entrepreneurship and go, how do we take what we have experienced in our life with a fundamental belief that we are good and put that together to go, what do I get to experience? What is the freedom that could come from the reality of allowing myself to fully be known? What is involved in that freedom, is it is it that I get to make more money if that's my desire? Probably is that I get to have deeper relationships, because that's something that I'm pursuing. Probably this that I have find a freedom to sit in isolation. I don't feel fear that everyone's going to judge me or not like me. And I consistently say I'm a people pleaser when in fact I'm just a relationship seeker, probably. But I think it comes back to we have to start in a space to go. Am I known? I mean, do I know myself? Do I have a language for that? Am I clear about that? Do I have confidence that it's good to have the courage to live it out? And then finally, do I have the conviction that says this is a deep sea to believe I am no longer willing to jeopardize? And that is that is that is a huge and mixed with millions of, you know, variables.   Rocky: They go into all that. But for where I am today, you know, why why do I wake up every day today? I would say that I wake up every day because I want to be able to challenge others to live vulnerably so that you can experience the freedom that comes with being fully known. And in that freedom, as I think where we landed this place to go, financial freedom, relational freedom, confidence in ourselves, trust that we are good. But I think it begins by beginning to live vulnerable because I define vulnerability as creating the opportunity to see and be seen by others. If we can't start there, then we don't actually know what we're looking at. So there is no clarity. And if there's no clarity, then the other things don't happen either. And so it's not always that linear and that simple. But at the same time, I kind of think sometimes it is that linear and it is that simple. We've got to be able to go back, though, to a place to where we can begin to uproot and uncover what those fear, doubts, obstacles, insecurities are so that we can begin to make a path for.   Joe: Wow, that's powerful. That's a you sure went through a lot in the short amount of time, but I appreciate you laying all that out. Do you feel like you're in the best place you've ever been at this point in your life?   Rocky: I simultaneously feel like I am actively moving in the clearest I have ever felt about me, what I do and what I can do for someone and question almost every day, is this exactly what I'm supposed to be doing? And if I could really hone in to what I really think I should be doing and I say doing, I mean, for me to get really specific business, product, service price, like if I could if I could, you know, move ourself in, do I think in my life, is this the most clear and free I've ever felt? 100 percent. I was looking back and Instagram on my 30th birthday. I'm thirty seven now. I'll be 38 this year. So almost eight years ago I was in Marfa, Texas with two friends. We had no kids yet and I put an Instagram post. It was like me standing back when I used to have hair shout out to people like you and me and I used to have hair. If you don't know that John are both bald and I would sit in front of this bus and Marfa and I had a I was like 11:00 a.m. with a margarita taco on my hand. And my my my caption was like, I'm 30 years old today. It is the best I have felt physically, mentally, spiritually, like emotionally like man. Great. And I look back at that and I'm like, what a joke. Because today I'm like, I feel the muscle, you know.   Joe: Right.   Rocky: But but I think. What does that mean? It's been a constant upward trajectory. No, it's been I mean, it's been it's looked about ninety seven bell curves between that moment in this moment. Right. But I think in that to go why I think I come back to to answer your question. Why come back to go like like with like service, product and price. I guess that they're right because I think I feel so passionately about who I am and the belief that it's good and what I can do with that, that it's it's a whole other conversation and podcast episode to go. How do we take that and then find a way to meet a need in the market, find a way to communicate it effectively at a price point that is doable, that is actually sustainable, that it's not in exchange for time for money and really build a business out of that. That's the million dollar, no pun intended question for me. I think a lot of the time, and it's do I believe in myself what I'm doing? And I'm confident in my ability to affect change in someone's life. One hundred percent do I always feel confident, know how to sell that know. And I'm learning more and more that that's OK. And I need to go to people for help, because if I go back and say, what am I good at, it's not any of those things. And so that's OK. But I have to be able to be also confident if I need people in my life to help me, because I'm not sure I can get there. And I should say that I am 100 percent positive I cannot get there by myself.   Joe: Right. So you, from my understanding now, you are a coach as one of the things that you do. You're an author,   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: You're a coach. We're going to talk about your book later on in the podcast.   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: The book that's coming out. But from my own research, I saw certain podcast episodes you were on, either the ones that you've done yourself with guest videos. And I saw a piece about identity mapping that   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: You talk about. And I   Rocky: No.   Joe: Also saw another thing about self-love and but it was self-love focused towards men. Right. Because it is a different thing for sure,   Rocky: 100   Joe: Because   Rocky: Percent.   Joe: Guys just don't think that way. Right. And so that was interesting   Rocky: Yep,   Joe: As well.   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: But so let's use me as an example. OK, I am not allowed to tell you my   Rocky: Great.   Joe: Age because I've been telling my age too much and my girlfriend Joan thinks that I'm going to it's going to cause   Rocky: Gary.   Joe: Me harm if I keep saying the age that I am. And so I'm not going to tell you my age, but I'm all of that. So I've gone through my whole life, my and my ultimate focus when I first started was to eventually tour the world as a as a musician and be this this famous drummer and tour with John Mayer, let's say, as an example. So I went to college for music, but then when I got out,   Rocky: Ok.   Joe: I became an entrepreneur living down in New York City. I still played I was like a weekend warrior and would go play gigs Thursday through Sunday. But my focus was building a business because I took the mind frame of, hey, instead of me acting as, you know, like being a musician and struggling to make it, how about I do something that I know I'm really good at right now, which is being creating a business, being an entrepreneur, having that business be successful so that I didn't have to worry about the financial piece any longer.   Rocky: Right.   Joe: And then having the money I could go then now pursue a music career and buy my own tour bus and pay really great musicians to be part of my band. And so this was the frame of mind that I had a   Rocky: Mm hmm.   Joe: Bad, bad move. I would never tell any person in any career of anything, not just music, but anything that you got to go full steam ahead towards the thing that you want. And you can't have there. There's people that have different theories on burning the boats and not having a Plan B.. I'm all in on just have that plan and go for it. Burn the boats, do not   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: Have a plan B and it'll happen if you put in the work. I didn't put in the work musically, so I am where I am today. I take on all the responsibility that I didn't do what I needed to the 10000 hours to be John Mayer Strummer.   Rocky: Ok.   Joe: Now fast forward, I am successful as a entertainment booking agent. I own my own company and Phoenix started   Rocky: And.   Joe: It in 2011 was when it first started and it became more official around 2013. Successful Management Entertainment Booking Agency does it. I like it. I'm good at it. I like doing it. Does it does it make my soul sing now? Probably not. Have I found what I should be doing in this world? I don't think so.   Rocky: Hmm.   Joe: Am I? Am I servicing? Am I, am I giving to the world something that leaves a legacy that I feel really good about? Yeah, I put hundreds of musicians to work every year, but is that how I want to be remembered? I don't think so.   Rocky: Hmm.   Joe: So this   Rocky: Yeah,   Joe: Is where   Rocky: Yeah,   Joe: You come in. So   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: I sit every day now and I struggle going, OK, I like doing my podcast. I love meeting people like you. I love surrounding myself by humble, kind, successful entrepreneurs, not the ones who are constantly boasting on clubhouse that they're multibillionaires and this and that and taking pictures in front of Lamborghinis and jets. So I'm going through the struggle of identity purpose.   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: How how do I service   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: The world?   Rocky: Yeah, so my first question almost always, and not because I expect you to be and if you rattle off an answer, we're going to get to work. If you don't, then you're in the 99 percent of us who don't always have an answer. So I'm going to give that give you that freedom, but. What do you want?   Joe: So this is the part that's that's tough because we talk about I want financial freedom where I never have to think about money   Rocky: Ok,   Joe: And   Rocky: Ok, so   Joe: I   Rocky: Let's   Joe: Want   Rocky: Let's   Joe: It and   Rocky: Yeah,   Joe: I want   Rocky: Let's.   Joe: It also because I want it to be able to help my family first, which is what's in my brother. I don't have my my parents are no longer alive, but my brother and my sister, obviously my immediate family, Joel and my girlfriend of 20 some years,   Rocky: Mm   Joe: You   Rocky: Hmm.   Joe: Know, her daughter, my two kids and my immediate family. And then from there, I would love to be able to give four hundred thousand dollars a year to that charity and give a million dollars   Rocky: Mm hmm.   Joe: A year to that charity   Rocky: Mm hmm.   Joe: And go over and build schools and whatever. Just I didn't   Rocky: Great.   Joe: Have to think about that piece of it.   Rocky: Yeah, OK, so tell me what you feel like, what is accomplished if and when you are able to achieve. If I say what do you want and your your guttural response is financial freedom. OK, then you broke down for me what financial freedom looks like the practical side of where the money would go and that what do you feel like is going to happen? What what what changes for you if you don't have to think about money anymore?   Joe: That any action that I take that I feel is the right action. I don't have to think whether or not money plays a part in that because   Rocky: Ok.   Joe: That has been removed, that's been taken off the table. So   Rocky: Ok,   Joe: If   Rocky: So right   Joe: I   Rocky: Now,   Joe: Want   Rocky: Right   Joe: To.   Rocky: Now, the biggest yeah, right now the biggest inhibitor to you really pursuing what you believe at any moment is that the first question that always comes to mind is what is the financial implication of this decision? And do I have the capacity to make this decision based on my other responsibilities? I have other places with money. If I choose this question number one always is, what is the financial implication of this?   Joe: Correct, especially   Rocky: Ok.   Joe: At an older age, you're like, OK,   Rocky: Yeah.   Joe: I've been busting my hump, by no means am I in any financial distress, but   Rocky: Sure.   Joe: To just never   Rocky: To not   Joe: Have   Rocky: Think   Joe: To   Rocky: About   Joe: Think   Rocky: It.   Joe: About saying, hey, I'm going to go and spend a month helping someone to build schools because it's something that's good and it gives back that would be cool to do.   Rocky: Ok, OK, so let's use that, let's use that, why can you not go to Guatemala in May for a month this year to go help build a school? Why can't you go do that?   Joe: Because if my focus is on doing something like that, then I can't focus on at this point running the business that I have because I had four employees before covid hit. Now it's me. So I'm literally running this entire business alone   Rocky: Ok,   Joe: Again.   Rocky: Ok,   Joe: So   Rocky: So   Joe: Then   Rocky: So   Joe: The money   Rocky: What?   Joe: Dries up if I'm   Rocky: Yeah,   Joe: Not doing it right.   Rocky: Yeah, right, OK, so what I want to say, so it's beautiful. Thank you. What I just heard you say is right now, the problem is not money right now, the problem is, is that given a million external circumstances that we couldn't control. I mean, I'm with I'm in the same boat as you right now. The problem is not money. Right now. The tension we are feeling is that we are in a position that our work requires us and therefore our work. We are questioning whether or not that work that we are doing is the thing we actually want to be doing.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Rocky: Because I think if you love your your work that you were doing. Again, we're not saying you don't like it. Everybody who's listening to shut out your client or work with him, he loves it. OK, just take that note. Joe   Joe: I   Rocky: Loves a job.   Joe: Like that good.   Rocky: What we're saying is it's not that you don't like your work. We're saying is you feel a longing to pursue and do something different with your time. Maybe we're not sure what that is, but it feels like the contingency point to give you the freedom to go do that is the fear that if I did that, will there be money? And by money we mean will there be safety? And by safety we mean will we be OK and be OK? Meaning will I have to rely on someone again? Because where I've relied on people in the past, they have let me down and I am unwilling to commit myself to something or someone where that you have the opportunity to walk and it is fundamentally destructive to me. You will not do that to me again,   Joe: Yeah,   Rocky: I   Joe: It's   Rocky: Fear.   Joe: Yeah, and it's it's wanting to do something so much bigger.   Rocky: And I would say I want to challenge you because it's part of my my role and who I am as a person. I want you to do an exercise whenever we're done here, just we'll chat about it again offline is I want you to really look at it and define what it is that you see and believe that impact is directly a result and equal to size as opposed it is to depth. I hear you saying I want to have a broad impact. I want to do something that is seen in big and broad. And I'm saying just as a challenge, not because I'm right. What about depth, though? What about the artist who you work with who couldn't pay their rent or buy groceries for their child if you weren't helping them get gigs? And their life is fundamentally different because you've taken a risk to be the person that allows them to pursue something they love that you are unwilling to do, that they are willing to do. And you are actually a proponent for hundreds of musicians to fulfill their dreams and feed their families. And without you as an integral piece in their life, they would not be able to fulfill something significant in who they believe that they are. And so because of that, your impact is so deep and with one hundred artists is in fact broad and wide that your breadth and depth actually are simultaneously changing the lives of every person that hires you and works with you because they could not pursue their dream in the way you wish someone would have stood in the gap for you.   Rocky: Twenty five, thirty five years ago. You are consistently standing in the gap and providing that opportunity for somebody else. And so sure, it's not sexy like a school in Guatemala. Sure. It's not as elaborate as writing a massive check that we get to go to the gala for when covid is over and drink champagne and someone gives us a little plaque that we're going to throw away so we don't care about anyone. That's not why we gave the money. It's not the freedom. I wish I could just choose whatever I want. No, you don't. You are choosing what you want. If you didn't if you weren't choosing what you wanted, you wouldn't be doing it. Every human being. This is not just for Joan was for you as a listener. You say I'm doing something I don't really want to. Yes, you do. If you didn't want to, you wouldn't do it, period. Well, I can't do that because if I don't do this, I won't have enough money.   Rocky: So go to an apartment, sell your house, get rid of your car, ride the train. You don't you don't want to do that. You want to do that. You do what you want. Generally speaking, outside of external circumstances were always out of our control, so I don't don't hear me say that if you're like no, you don't understand where I'm at, you're correct. I don't understand where you're at. And if you're in a position, you absolutely have to do what you're doing and you hate it. Hey, we've all been there to some degree. So, I mean, I'm not making a statement about your abilities any anybody who's listening, but here specifically for most of us. I think you are doing what you want. I think that we lose sight at times, that it is, in fact what we want. I think we lose sight at times about the impact we are really making. And so sure, maybe, maybe, Joe, maybe 40 years ago, you didn't actually make the step that you wanted to take. But there's hundreds of people a year that you are affecting change and given the opportunity to take that step and you and only you are the one who has the capacity to stand in the gap and help them do and see that.   Joe: Yeah, I mean, you're right, I've gotten phone calls and texts and emails saying, dude, you saved my life this year, like you doubled my salary. You brought more opportunity to me than I have ever had before. But again, while I I do like getting those calls and emails and texts and I feel good about that, I feel like someone of my I don't know who   Rocky: Say   Joe: I am.   Rocky: It, own it, own it,   Joe: Yeah,   Rocky: Own   Joe: I   Rocky: It,   Joe: Know.   Rocky: Say it.   Joe: It's just like I feel like there's I could do so much more I, I feel like I'm not living big enough.   Rocky: Ok, so   Joe: That's   Rocky: Now   Joe: It.   Rocky: So great, great. That is totally different and has nothing to do with financial freedom, it has nothing to do with depth or breadth. It is you feel in your soul there is something else before you die that there is you want to do and pursue. And so I'm going to challenge you to say, stop saying that it's financial freedom that's keeping you back. That is untrue. You have there has never been a moment you and I have known each other now for thirty five minutes. Exactly. OK, I know by just talking to you for thirty five minutes, there has never been a moment in Joe Costello's life where he did not do and have the capacity to make sure that he had the ability to care for himself and those around him, no matter how hard it was he was one to do, was required to make it work. Right. OK, so nothing is different today than it was five years, 10 years or twenty five years ago. So if there's something big and audacious, if there's something you're saying, this is this is it for me, if you're saying I want to get to the root of this, other thing that I can talk about is like money and freedom and donations and but all those things fall into a philanthropic legacy, giving of self to other space that we could pick a million things that fall in that category. Great, then let's do let's figure out what do you want, what do you where do you really want to have an impact the day you're gone? They say, man, that guy Joe. And I bet I bet if we went to your clients, you've had the longest that we pick 10 clients, you've had the longest and gave them a worksheet to fill out and say, could you give me the attributes about Joe? You appreciate what you like he has done for you, the impact he has had in your life.   Rocky: I bet every single one of them would say something very synonymous to each other. And then if we could take that and say, where do you want to point that energy? That is, Joe, the music, the the gigs, the entertainment that just happened to be the cat catnap, the tunnel, the vessel, the we knew it and we liked it and we found it out. And then, you know, fast forward 20 years. We wake up and here we are. I think you're just saying I want to change the vessel, the work you're doing. We've already agreed as impactful that people texting you saying you are changing my life, saving my life. That's like shit that people send like a paramedic or their brain surgeon or like they don't send that to their music manager like that. What is it? What does that even mean? OK, so we're identifying the beauty. We are identifying the uniqueness. We are identifying the very specific impact that you have had, you currently have and you future have to continue to make. We are saying we got to do the work to identify where do I want to point that and where do I want to spend the next 15, 20, 30, 40 years? Pointing that energy, because I know that I have it and I know that I can now have a proven track record to say that it's there. So where do I want to point it? I don't want to think about what is inhibiting me from changing the direction. I want to identify the component that's going to allow me to push it in that direction, moving forward.   Joe: So I've had other people on the podcast that in one of them happens to be a gentleman named Patrick Combs and Patrick and his partner Eric run a company called BLIS Champions. And the whole   Rocky: Ok.   Joe: Purpose of it is finding your bliss, right,   Rocky: Mm   Joe: Finding your   Rocky: Hmm.   Joe: Purpose. It's it's this and this has been the theme this whole past year. OK, what is it like? What covid hit the world shut down. Right. And so the entertainment business got hit really hard. So I basically had a list of things I wanted to do. Pot   Rocky: And.   Joe: Starting the podcast was one of them starting a YouTube channel, which alone was another thing we did. But when I sit here and I and I went through an exercise the other day where you make two columns and you make I forget what it was, if it was like all the things you're good at and all the things you're interested in or something like that, and you draw you draw an arrow from the left column to the right column to the thing that sort of matches that to narrow down what it is that you think you're here to do. That's the part. And I look at it like, oh, got at my age, why would I still be struggling to find that thing? And that's the frustrating part. It's like, how do people and this is for my audience to is anybody who's listening. I am so jealous of anybody that has found their purpose. Their bliss wakes up every day. And this is what I was put here to do. This is what I love to do. And not only does this all work for me, but it actually creates this world that I like to live in. And I   Rocky: Mm   Joe: Can   Rocky: Hmm.   Joe: And I and I don't think about money like the combination   Rocky: Mm hmm.   Joe: Of having doing having your bliss, your purpose in your bliss and at the same time not thinking about anything financial. To me, that's like the match made in heaven.   Rocky: I mean, my answer to that is, yeah, if you can if you find that course, hey, I'll pay for both of us to go. And I say that and I say that, like 50 percent joking, also 50 percent serious. But I say that because I want to humanize for you and mostly for you and me, because we're the ones talking. But for all for all the listeners as well. I want to humanize the reality. I want to humanize the statement of what you are saying and feeling that even as me someone that I want to make a few assumptions and then you correct me if I'm wrong, but like, you go and you're like, OK, I look at this guy Rocky, and I look at this brand. And sure, he had a few broken links on his website, but that's OK because I helped him with that. But he has a brand and he's on point and his colors and his photos and he seems clear about what he's doing. I heard him on clubhouse and I said yes on a podcast. And like he seems to be speaking true that he seems to be genuine and all the words you would use that you hope you could say about yourself. Right.   Joe: Mm   Rocky: Like   Joe: Hmm.   Rocky: He has this and isn't it so? And I say, all right, because I want to humanize the reality of I'm sure that is true. I feel pretty good, like I have to be able to stand Konovalenko. I don't have to caveat that. Like, I feel like I have a good marriage and I work really hard at it and I'm trying to be the best father that I can that with limited knowledge and experience of not really having one growing up. And I feel like I'm I'm crushing it like I love my kids and they love me and and both, not one or the other like. And so I have this idea that's another a book that I want to write. So I'm going to pitch it here and we'll see if it resonates. It resonates. We'll write it if it doesn't and scrap it, it's terrible. So but I think we all live me too in this space. And there's an old game we used to play when we were young called Two Truths in a Lie. Right. And you say two things are true. One's a line. You got to guess which one. OK, I think we all collectively every day we have been lied to and conditioned that we forget that there are two truth in a lie and every statement that we make and then we go, I'm either going to have this or this, I'm either going to be the full expression of everything that I am and financial freedom. And it's this or. Life's really pretty hard. It's kind of dull and it doesn't make sense. And here's the here's the premise. There's always two truth in a lie. And the two truths always exist together. And the only thing that makes life real and worth living is that both truths have to be true simultaneously. The lie is, is that we think we only have to believe one. The lie is we think only one is actually true, so you know what 20, 20 was like for you and me, I'm going to chalk it up. It was actually. Man, it was good, like we   Joe: Mm   Rocky: Did   Joe: Hmm.   Rocky: Good work.   Joe: Yeah.   Rocky: And it was really is costing a lot on your podcast I don't get to listen   Joe: Yeah,   Rocky: To,   Joe: Absolutely,   Rocky: Ok,   Joe: Yeah,   Rocky: It was good and it was really fucking hard.   Joe: Yeah.   Rocky: Both. So the two truths in the lie are that it was really good and really hard, and the lie says it's either one or the other. And so for this scenario, for you guys, there's got to be more I got there's got to be something out there that I could just get this then this thing would happen. But instead I'm going to have this, which means Branfman, I guess it'll just be it is what it is and everything is fine, but like, it wasn't great. It was just like it worked. But no, what if what if what you're doing now is working and the fact that it's still working, it's just you and yes. Sad for employees are gone. So you're still kind of you're back in the weeds again. But what you're doing you can do in your sleep. You've got a podcast. You got this guy who's bald with big eyebrows on your podcast right now we're talking about. So you've got at least a little bit of autonomy to do what you want. Right. So   Joe: Yeah.   Rocky: Both can be true. Continue with what you're doing and streamline, streamline, put it down, the process is squeeze it, systematize it as more than you already. I'm sure it already has, but make it even more so that we only need one employee to make up for the three we had last time to give by your time a little bit for you to have a little bit of breathing room to go. Both. I think I can have this and I think I can create the the depth of impact in every arena of my life. And I'm looking for. Because I think if we could you and me are our listeners, but you and me. If we could find the places where we recognize the depth of our impact was not only significant, but but it scratch the itch we had in ourselves and our own soul. We would think less about money. And listen, I'm a proponent for money, I'm trying to make money, I got a business, I want money and I got a business. Got what? I want some asking me how much I could make. I want to try to find it, make as much as I can. I'm all about money. I'm not. Let me be very clear about that. But when I go to my son's room. He says, hey, dad, can you play with me? I say, sure, what you want to do. He says, I want to wrestle.   Rocky: So Carlos Resum. And I am experiencing a moment in my own life that I. Hardly ever experienced. As the son in that engagement. I'm not thinking about how much money that I made. I'm not thinking about who did or didn't pay their invoice. I'm not thinking about it. I can I if I get enough money, you know what, I could wrestle as much as I wanted to if I made more money. Now, you know what? I can wrestle as much as I want to. That's the end of the statement. I want to challenge somebody asked me I did a bunch of along along here on Instagram with stories yesterday and a good friend of mine messaged me this morning, he was like, hey, this is awesome. Also, why does this matter? And he wasn't being a smart aleck. He was like, hey, I'm trying to help you to the expression to be fully known. He was like, what happens when you're fully known? Why is that good? Why does it matter? What do I get? Why don't I like hey, you're a really good friend because I don't want to talk about that much. I appreciate that. But I think our conversation today is kind of leading to that place to go. So. So. So then what, Rocky? You're just telling me to just do what I want. No, I'm telling you, friend, you're already doing what you want, but I feel like you don't want to do it.   Rocky: So I'm asking you to ask yourself the question. What do you want? Do you want to know the language that you need to have for yourself so you can find the freedom to be able to pursue what you want? OK, then let's do that. Let's figure it out. Why do you do what you do? How do you do what you do? What do you do? That's what identity mapping is. Identity mapping is a four hour process that you and me walk through one on one or me meeting a group of your team or organization walking around eight hours and you will leave, I can guarantee you 100 percent you will leave with a clearest language you have ever had about how you operate as a human being, not in professional, as a human. You will create 13 words in a piece of paper that are make impossible, it is mathematically impossible for anyone in the world who has ever been alive or currently alive. To choose the same 13 words as you know, put them in the same order, it's impossible. And we're not even talking about you, is it what you're doing? We're talking like 13 arbitrary words on a piece of paper. Some of us need language. That's step one. We need language because we we're not clear. We would call step one clarity. But clarity only comes when you can see something.   Rocky: If you don't have a language, you can't see it. So everything is a reaction. It is not as being proactive, as us being reactive. Right. So why aren't some of us need language, I just don't know I know what I'm good at, but I don't really know how to. OK, you need words. Some of us have words. And that's where we get calls. Like we have the words. I know why and how and what I know I've been doing a long time, but I just doesn't feel like it's good, you know, like I feel like I'm missing something. Well, that's that's comforting. Confidence is simply the ability to believe that it's good. You referenced earlier and we talked about self-love and self care and how much specifically for men. You know, I think men most men lack confidence. We make up for the fact that we lack confidence by trying to conquer something as opposed to cultivating something. We think if we could conquer it, then we win as opposed to cultivating in the last forever. Nobody nobody who conquered something has a good legacy there, Nazel. But every person you know, has a great legacy, cultivated something beautiful because it's still growing. That's what a legacy is. A legacy is not a marker of what you did. A legacy is the fact that what you did continues to thrive. Right, and   Joe: Yeah,   Rocky: So   Joe: It's powerful. Yeah.   Rocky: Some of us, some of us need clarity, some of us need language, we get the language, then we need clarity. Can we see it right can as it makes sense to us? Yeah, OK. Do we have confidence? Can we look at that and believe it's good self-confidence, the ability to look at yourself and say that is good. OK, got it cleared, economists break what's next? Do you have the courage? Courage is the ability to move forward at any pace, even in the midst of fear and unknown, are you willing to every day move towards the thing that you really believe? Yes, I am. Great. And you did yesterday? Yep. Today, yes. Great lasta conviction. Do you believe that thing in your soul enough? That it is a deep seated belief you are unwilling to waver from or jeopardize. No matter what comes your way. Motivation is still your mind, you can do it. Inspiration is telling your heart, you can do it. Conviction is telling your soul. You must do it. That's why Solasta takes a lot of work. And so some of us, we need language, some of us get the language and identity mapping, then we need clarity. That means you need help, you need a coach, you need somebody like that.   Rocky: And me, it could be anybody you want, but we need somebody in our life to go, hey, help me see what I can't see and help me have the confidence to believe that it's good. And then at some point, people are in my space, I would say at that point, hey, we did our thing, we got the words, we got the clarity, we got the confidence. We're ready. We're doing it. I need a plan. Great. I have a good idea. Ideas. You probably know somebody other than me to execute the plan, though, because I'm still trying figure out my own plan. I'm problematic, I should say, about your plan. Right. Like I know where my but where the stops and I'm ready to pass you on to the next man or woman who can really help you. And so I think for all of us, we find ourselves in any variable of any one of those places at any point in time. I think it begins by us acknowledging that what is that place and where am I at and. Am going to do with that.   Joe: Yeah, I feel like going through this process and and not only telling you this story on this episode, but having this conversation with myself, having this conversation with Joel and having it with other friends, that to me, it's the more and more I can talk about it. My hope is that the clarity will come because I have to like you said, it's super important. It's the language, right? It's how you you talk about it and it's saying more of what you want as opposed to more what you don't want. Right. Because what you think about and what you talk about is what ends up becoming more true. So you have to be careful about the words you use and the thoughts you think. That's why it's fun to talk about this with you, because the more and more I talk about it, I feel like it helps to my hope is that it helps to bring clarity at some point and say this is what you were here to do. And the cool thing is that you hit upon us. Don't throw away the baby with the bathwater, like you've already done a lot of cool things and you've helped people. But, you know, I think I'm in a different stage now. So what do I do with the remaining 40 years of my life if I if I actually reach that so.   Rocky: And I think and I think I think that's a great question to ask, and I think there's great opportunity for all of us to think about, to consider, regardless of our age and where we are in our career, our job, whatever language we want to use, there is great opportunity for us to be able to say today, I'm not going to talk about what I don't want. I'm going to talk about what I do want. And then I'm going to I'm going to look and say, do I think I have the words to identify that I don't ask for help? I don't either. My whole business is how many people have identity, purpose, understanding who you are, what that means and why that matters to be fully known. And you know what I did last week and I'm doing this week, I got three different people coming to my office to help me work through a process to really hone in my why what it is because I can't do it by myself. Doesn't work that way, humans, we're not we're not designed that way. Right,   Joe: Yeah.   Rocky: We have only we only have eyes in the front of our head for a reason. So we were made to have somebody behind this or maybe have somebody with us.   Joe: Yeah.   Rocky: And so I hope if you're listening today and you're joining us wherever you are in the car at home, and I hope you if I could leave you with anything, it would be that don't let fear of school and security. They all exist. They're all human. We all have them to say, you don't. You're lying. Yes, you do. Showing the crowd coming to the party. But don't let those things be the lie that we continue to believe that inhibit us from really pursuing the things that we love, the people we love, the relationships that we love. Daouda, sneaky man. It doesn't it's it's sneaky. It doesn't care about us. It is. It will wait. It is patient. And just the moment you think you have the guts to do it, it's going to remind you of some B.S. story that somebody told you at some point in your life. Don't don't let it win. It's work, it's work, digging, uprooting, cultivating, unearthing, it ain't easy. I can tell you that right now. Not easy, but it can be not easy and good. Both things can be true. Is it's only going to be one or the other. That's just not how it works.   Joe: Yeah, that's a powerful statement you brought up in this this episode. It's really cool that know the one line, the two truths, right? It's it's a cool thing to remember to keep that in your mind. And I. I like that a lot. It was really cool.   Rocky: Yeah, yeah, thank you.   Joe: So do me a favor. Let's talk about the book   Rocky: Yeah, yeah, so   Joe: Well.   Rocky: The book is called Kill Doubt, Build Conviction, and kind of under the premise of really what I talked about here just in this last part. So I'm kind of at a place where in my experience in working with individuals in my own life, I believe there are two stories that are at play in our life at all times. The stories that are told to us about us and the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. Those two stories hold an immense amount of weight. They become wildly impactful when they intersect. So I grew up people telling my whole life stories told to me about me. Rocky, too intense. You're too emotional. You're too this year, too. Right. And so when that story, I can't control that. Now, be very clear that if the story told to me about me, I can control that. But when the story I tell myself about myself is rockier, too intense, and you see their face, you see his face when you were talking to him, calm down. It's not too much. Now, what happens is those two stories collide. And upon that intersection, I believe, is where doubt, fear an obstacle is born. It's birthed in that moment. And every time those intersect again, it grows legs and grows feet and grows arms and becomes more active in her life. The book is a half one part workbook, one part my story, one part encouragement to you to go. Hey, how do we begin to unpack that? We lay out the concept of the two truths. We lay out each story and have you walk through that of your own life.   Rocky: We have you get to a place, you go now look for ones that are complementary. That doesn't mean they're good. It just means they match. Right. Rocky, you're too intense. Rocky tells himself, Rocky, you're too intense. That's a complementary story at that intersection. I need to identify my doubt, that is. I'm too much for people, the lie people will not love me if that's who I am, the truth, I am intense and it is good, right? And so the book is out as I process about seven or eight chapters where we walk through that that process. He let me lay out the concept. Here's what it looks like and then get to work. Start making your chart, fill out your story, find that out, finally find the truth. And then we kind of walk you with that through either email or text options we have that we ask you then of a chapter and they text me right now. Tell me what you just found out and then we're to make sure we follow with you to make sure that we can do that. And so the book killed out. Build conviction. You can get a copy. You can order one today. Rocky Garcia dot com. There's a link there or Iraqi Gaza dot com sketchbook and it should take you right to it. Order copy. And we'll we'll ship it out. There it is in editing slash printing right now. So they should ship sometime end of April.   Joe: Cool. OK, so are you only going to have it on your side or do you think it will eventually be up on Amazon or somewhere else like that?   Rocky: Yeah, yeah, so we'll see for now, it'll just be on our site,   Joe: Ok.   Rocky: One for it in full transparency, just for a traffic and final just to drive people to our site. I   Joe: Mm hmm.   Rocky: Go to a conference, they speak, hey, go get it. Go to our website and read everything else while you're there. And I think also just this is my first experience and writing a book I would have if you'd have told me I was going to write a book a year ago, I would have laughed at you. I'm a talker, not a writer. Come to find out, you can write books by talking. You just use dictation and talk and that pops up into a word. Documents. Beautiful. And so so we'll see, I think, as as more things come, you know, for those for those folks who have written books before I thought about it, you know, it's a very interesting process to publish self publish, go to the publisher and so on and so forth. And   Joe: Yeah.   Rocky: Right right now, Rakhi Gaza is not a name that any publishers like, hey, do we want you to write a book? So if that happens, I'm sure we'd go the Amazon route and put in there at some point. But for now, I just I want to help some folks and I think the best way to do that is to go to go get it at that place. So.   Joe: Perfect. What's the best way for the audience to get in contact with you, what's your preferred method of communication? So you have Rocky Gaza dotcom, correct,   Rocky: Yep, yep,   Joe: As your   Rocky: Yep,   Joe: Website   Rocky: So you could   Joe: And   Rocky: Yeah,   Joe: Then.   Rocky: You could check out Rajab's dot com for speaking, so I spent about a third of my time keynote speaking in workshops both for what I call external conferences meeting and individuals going to put on a conference for a group of people they can buy a ticket to and then internal conferences. So business and organizations hire me to come and speak to their staff. A third of my time is kind of spent in the team space working directly with teams and organizations in a smaller format, more intensive identity mapping for teams, basically, and then about a third of my time with individuals. So doing one on one coaching, we've got a 12 week program that folks can jump into. It includes a four hour identity mapping session. And then we meet once a week every week for 12 weeks to really help people get to that stage lifecycle. Hey, you're clear and ready to be handed off to kind of jump into that next arena. So, yeah, hit me up on Instagram, clubhouse, Facebook. There's not a lot of rocky ghazi's out there. And so I try to be the first to grab those names. So it's just at Rockie, Gaza, on every platform that you could want to find me on or that I would want to be on. I'm there not a tick talker, but Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and website, also clubhouse. You can catch me on any of those.   Joe: Right. All right, man, well, I appreciate your time today, I appreciate going through this this exercise with you. I hope it was helpful to the audience and I love the work that you're doing. It speaks to me, as you can tell. I'm going through the process myself. And it was really it was an honor to have you here and to talk this through with you. I really appreciate your time.   Rocky: Yeah, thank you so much, Jim, I appreciate it was great to connect on clubhouse. Thanks for having me on the show and I look forward to talking to you again.   Joe: Yeah, my pleasure, man, you take care. OK.   Rocky: Thank you so much.

I had an amazing discussion with Tony Whatley about working twice as hard as the next person, never giving up, building a business from scratch, selling his business for millions, working for a corporation and now his new life of helping entrepreneurs. Check out his book "Sidehustle Millionaire": https://amzn.to/3fXEwmd Also check out his Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/365driven and his website at https://365driven.com/. This was a fascinating chat with someone who has really done it...created a business and sold it for millions. So many people act as if they've done it but rarely do you find someone who has and is willing to share their knowledge to help lift others up. Enjoy and thanks so much for listening!! Joe Tony Whatley CEO - 365Driven.com Author of: Sidehustle Millionaire Website: https://365driven.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/365driven/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/365driven 365Driven Faceook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/365driven/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonywhatley/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrETiHfxlI0Igei04hd1KVQ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: All right, my guest is Tony Whatley. Tony, welcome to the podcast.   Tony: Joe, good to connect and thank you for having me on the show, brother.   Joe: Yeah, man, so you and I connected on Clubhouse and there is a tremendous amount of noise on the Clubhouse, as with any platform, once it takes off and you stuck out to me because you're not one of those people that are leaning against a rented Lamborghini or sitting in a hollow like a fuselage. So and when I listen to you talk in certain rooms on clubhouse, just something attracted me to wanting to connect more with you and learn about your story. So what I like to do with all my guests, as I like to go back, I think it's important for people that become successful like you, that the people that are listening to this and who will eventually watch the YouTube video of this a few days after I release this on the platform that they understand where you came from, because I think that's always really important to know that you just weren't handed all of these things. And this just with any anybody becoming an entrepreneur, it's not an easy journey. So can you kind of bring us forward to today, but tell us where you started? I know that you got into oil and you had a regular career, quote, regular giving air quotes for the podcast listeners. So if you could take us from the beginning, it would be awesome.   Tony: Hey, thank you for the opportunity. So my life grew up lower middle class to hard, hardworking parents, blue collar careers. My mom was a cafeteria worker in the public schools for over 30 years, serving kids meals. She had a really strong heart. She loved everybody, didn't and didn't dislike anybody. Even some of the people I disliked, she was like she could find the love in everybody. Right. And my dad, Vietnam veteran U.S. Marines, and after the military, he worked in chemical refineries here in the UAE, an area the rest of his career. They're both retired now, doing well. And I just learned the value of hard work and having to learn to be grateful for what I had in the houses that I grew up in. Three houses specifically in Friendswood, Texas, is really the lowest income neighborhood in the entire city, which had affluence and also had lower middle class, lot more of the affluence. But, you know, fewer of us. And we would basically buy the crappiest house and the smallest house in the neighborhood and live in it while we flipped it for a few years, while we were restoring it, making it nicer. And eventually those small houses would become one of the nicer houses on the street. And then they would go by a little bit nicer, bigger house, because me and my sister, which we're growing just like the house sizes. And so I just thought that was a normal life. I saw that there was a affluence nearby. I could get on my bicycle and my skateboard and run around and look at these big houses that had a lot of windows on the front.   Tony: I remember being a kid and I only had one window on the front of my first house. I grew up and it was the one that was a bay window on the living room. And I would watch my sister, who was a year and a half older, get on the bus every day, and I would wave to her just like my mom would be standing in the window. And that was always my view of the house, the first house I grew up in. And I just thought that every house just had one view. So I just thought that was normal. And I remember when I became old enough to go right around and leave the neighborhood and go see what was outside, I saw all these big houses with multiple windows. And I remember thinking to myself, I wonder what the view at that window looks like. I wonder what the view at that window looks like. And I could just envision myself running through this house and like looking through the windows and seeing if was a different view. And each one, as funny as thing is, as my wife is a realtor and sometimes I'll go do some showings with her and I'll we'll be at these large houses and I'll still look out every window. Even to this day. I'll still look out every window just to see what the view is.   Joe: That's   Tony: And   Joe: Right.   Tony: So I started to catch myself doing this. Like, why am I so fascinated by what's outside? Each one is like, oh, now I remember. Now I remember.   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: So yeah, a little bit about me   Joe: Yeah,   Tony: And.   Joe: Yeah, so how did you get into so what did you did you go to college for some particular subject or degree or.   Tony: I went to college for the pursuit of the six figure paycheck. That   Joe: Let's   Tony: Was that was the only reason   Joe: Get.   Tony: Because because I turned well, my first job was McDonald's at age 15. I worked there through high school. Then I was a busser at Olive Garden. And then I became a waiter there because I was good busser. And then I went to work at a steakhouse where I was another waiter. And then I became a manager of this brewery steakhouse and Clear Lake, Texas, and. I turned 18 and it really wasn't enough money to live on just just working at the restaurant, so I actually started working in construction just like my dad and and working in Texas and fire retardant clothing with a hard hat and 95 degree temperatures. It only took me a few summers of realizing that that's not where I wanted to be. I saw these these men with collared shirts walking into air conditioned rooms on the same facility. I was like, well, what do they do? All their engineers like? Well, man, I need to figure out how to work in the air conditioning. Yes. So I just said, hey, if you've got to go get a six figure career, that's what we tell you. You could be a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer. Well, I happen to love cars. So I said, well, maybe there's something in engineering that I can learn about cars and I can maybe go get that six figure paychecks. I became a mechanical engineer and I worked full time during that whole ordeal. I paid for school myself and actually the first person and both sides of my family to go to a university. My dad was the first one in his family to to move to a house that didn't have wheels attached to it. And so it was the first one to go to university. So I really applaud him for not going back to his hometown after he got out of the military and just decided, like, I don't want to grow up there. I don't want my kids   Joe: At.   Tony: To grow up there. We're moving somewhere else. So he went where the work was and he facilitated that change. And I felt like it was my obligation to do, you know, a little bit better for him, for the work that they put in. Isn't that what we all should be striving to is trying to do a little bit more than our parents   Joe: Yeah,   Tony: Who struggled   Joe: Absolutely.   Tony: To put us in that situation? And so, you know, me getting that degree took me seven years. I was I was going to school at night time, usually between six and 10 p.m. and sleep deprived and broke and stressed out and actually had more gray hair in college than I do now. Is is strange and really a sleep and stress. You know, it really does has a lot of physiological, you know, turmoil on us. And my relationship struggled back things I just didn't have any time to dedicate to those kind of things. But, you know, I never changed majors. I never quit. I did drop some classes along the way because I struggled and my grades were suffering at the point said I didn't quit. And that was a testament to me is like, I'm going to see this through because I actually had friends that joined mechanical engineering program. Honestly, even when they tell you that when you start freshman year of school, they said only 20 percent of you are going to graduate. And then they said, OK, well, how many of you have a girlfriend or boyfriend or you're married and raise your hand? Remember that orientation freshman year? And I said, OK, well, only 10 percent of you will graduate. And they said, how many of you are working full time job to do this? And I raise my hand again, I said, well, only 10 percent of you will graduate. So I was like out of a 20 percent pool, 10 percent of that and 10 percent had really bad odds. But you   Joe: At.   Tony: Know what? I'm pretty defiant. And I said, you know, I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to be the one that defeats the odds. And upon graduating, it was only 12 people in my class that had graduated that that semester.   Joe: Wow, that's   Tony: And   Joe: Crazy.   Tony: I was the only one that was working full time. So I really did defeat the odds. And I thought that I wanted to go into automotive career. But automotive in Detroit just didn't pay nearly as much as oil and gas in my hometown of Houston. So I decided to just take the paychecks in Houston. And that's why I started businesses in the automotive performance arena, because I still wanted to satisfy that itch.   Joe: Right. So you ended up taking a full time job in the oil and gas world. What was that job?   Tony: Earliest was a project engineer role working for a manufacturing facility, we built subsea equipment and pay pay back then was probably 45000 base salary, you know, entry level at that time. So for context, this was around 1997, 1998, and I was getting home at four thirty in the afternoon, like most people with a 40 hour job. We started really early in the morning, but I get home at four thirty and I felt like. After going through seven years of hustle and grind and working three jobs, I was still a waiter working construction as a mechanic and said this feels like a part time job. So here I am with my big boy salary and my big boy degree feeling like, OK, I guess I'm on my journey. I'm on my early journey to go chase the American dream. And I've done it. And and I was just bored. I was   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: Bored and I would be really honest with myself. I'd look at my small apartment and, you know, I bought myself a nicer car, bought a Pontiac Trans Am when I graduated. So that that was like my reward to myself.   Joe: Uh.   Tony: And I felt like this is this isn't enough. This is not enough. And I got a lot of energy. I got a lot of time. So I actually went back and waited tables at the restaurant that I was a manager of because I had promoted one of my friends to be the manager when I left. And I called him up and say, hey, man, do you think I could just come pick up shifts and bartending and waiting? He's like, hell, yeah, dude, you're awesome. Like, come back any time. I don't even need to put you on the schedule to come pick up one. And so for me that meant seven nights a week. I just I put the apron on and people lot of the people that were still working there knew who I was. And I graduated and that's why I left. And to go, why are you back? And it's like because I'm not where I want to be. Like, I can sit home and sit on the couch and watch TV or I can come back and make an extra 150 bucks a night.   Tony: So I chose to go suck up my pride and go do that. You know, his thing is I've never I've never felt shame for doing what was necessary to get what I needed to do. And I think a lot of times people put ego or self-importance above what they need to do. And, you know, I was fine if I was cleaning the bathrooms at McDonalds, I did it the best I could find, mopping floors. That is the best I could. And even as a kid, I go back and some of my long term friends like you just never complained. You just did what was required. Like football coaches would tell you something. You just do it. I've never been the complainer because I watched my parents work so hard and we literally were living inside of a flip house the entire time, and I just know that blood, sweat and tears is not just some a cliche phrase. And I learned from my dad like, hey, you know, he's a combat vet. Like, you should see what I had to do when I was 18, son,   Joe: Right.   Tony: You know, like like suck it up,   Joe: Yep.   Tony: Go do the work. Don't complain. You have it better than a lot of people in this world. And that's the mentality I adopted as a kid. And I grew into a young adult and I still carry that with me today.   Joe: So you're at this job, you're doing part time at the restaurant. And when do you decide and is the first side hustle that you start? Is it is it less one tech? Is that what it was?   Tony: Now, actually, my first side hustle. It's going to get really nerdy, but I learned how to build electronic circuits with resistors, a little bread boards and soldering, and I was kind of geeking out on this and I learned how to design a device that you could plug into an engine harness on a on a Camaro or a Corvette or a TransAm that would fool the NOx sensors and give you about 10 horsepower. So it basically would give it a little bit more ignition time. And it was a plug and play thing. And I knew how to design it and I built it. And so I would go to RadioShack back when those were everywhere,   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: Buy all the resistors and I would buy these little circuit boards and little boxes and the wiring and I would buy the GM harnesses from the parts counter at the local Chevy dealership. And I get home and I would bust out my little kit and I would solder things and it would take me about take me about an hour to build each one of these units. And I had about thirty dollars in parts. I can sell over 75 bucks. And so it didn't scale very well, obviously, because there was only a limited market, you know, I mean, hundreds of people that maybe wanted to buy that. And I can only build two or three a night without running at a time. And so that was my first online business. I actually built a little one page landing page is   Joe: Mm   Tony: What we   Joe: Hmm.   Tony: Call it now. But it was actually that's all my capability was back then.   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: And I sold I mean, I could sell six or seven a week and it was like good beer, money or aside, money was better than waiting tables, to be honest, because I could still make the same amount of time, but I could be at home. So that allowed me to leave the restaurants. And then I started building Web pages. I taught myself how to code HTML about really simple Web pages and do graphic design with Photoshop and take some good photos and build Web pages. Because I started that. A lot of people out there, a lot of automotive performance shops and manufacturers didn't have Internet presence at that time because they didn't have a website. So it's like, well, shit, I could trade my skills for car parts. So it's like a barter system is like   Joe: Right,   Tony: I can get free car parts   Joe: Right.   Tony: Of a website. And that funded my car and my racing hobby. Right. And so I got known for building these little simple one to three page websites, which I would have to basically layout on Photoshop visually first and then slice them and make the little buttons and like re rebuild those slices into like what looked like a Web page on the. There is a whole lot harder than it is nowadays and I probably got 100 of those websites over a period of two years. And so I got known as the guy that could build car stuff websites and I would get paid or I would trade car parts. And I was hanging out on other communities at the time and they weren't being managed very well. You know, they were they're not paying their server bills. Things were getting crashed. And sometimes all the content we create would be gone. You know, after you built all this, how to articles and you're writing all the stuff that's free of user generated content. And and finally we approached the owner of that Web site and we said, hey, we see you've got advertisers. We know how much you charge because some of my friends, advertisers have built their websites like, why aren't you paying your server bill? It's like it's like three hundred dollars a month, like what's going on. And rather than take that as constructive feedback from some of his best supporters, like a group of us, he said, well, if you guys think you can do a better job, go start your own.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: And it never even was a thought in my mind until he said that he challenged me again, like you don't challenge me. I'm the kind of person if you challenge me, I'm going to go do it. I'm going to prove you wrong. And so I said, well, man, I could build websites and I don't know much about servers, but I'm pretty sure I can figure out how to load some software on there into a server. That's pretty easy. If I could read a how to. And so that's what we did is like, you know, two of us started a website that was at least one tech. That was November 2001. So 20 years from now and this year. And we just started as a hobby. Dude, it's like, you know, the Set-aside Kim, it's not reliable. Let's just go start our own place to hang out. And my partner, John and I, we just thought, you know, if we can make 500 dollars a month, which is the Karno to the Trans Am I had and the Karno to the Camaro SS that he had. So that would be pretty cool to be like we would have a free car just to hang out and a place to talk about cars. And I've got a big boy job and a salary and you've got your own too. And we don't need this and it's just something we want to have fun with. And I like to illustrate that because, you know, you know, shocker.   Tony: Yeah. That thing went on to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in profit. And we sold it for millions in 2007, but was never intended to make millions of dollars. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, did you were you a visionary? And could you stop this? And it's like, no, we just wanted to make five hundred dollars a month. But the main difference, why we became the number one in the category and why we really dominated that entire automotive form seemy we we set so many bars and taught those other forums and the BMW sectors and the the Porsche sectors, we taught them how to monetize the audience. We, we taught them how to build a strong community and attract advertising revenue. So I had clients like Chevrolet and Cadillac and Goodyear and big name brands that were paying me to advertise on my website. So the main difference is that we treated it like a business. What started as a hobby, we started seeing real dollars come in and within within six months we're making 10000 dollars profit a month and we're like, whoa, I think we need to go get one of those. What are they called an LLC or I think we need to go do that. And I think we may need to create a separate bank account instead of just paying ourselves   Joe: Mm   Tony: Like in   Joe: Hmm.   Tony: Our personal account, like. So I love to share that because I want people understand that you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to be the best entrepreneur ever. You don't have to overdose on YouTube and podcasts and reading books and attending seminars. You've got to just start you just   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: Got to start and you're going to improve with time.   Joe: Yeah, so the important things I want to touch upon about this before we leave the subject about Ellis one tech is how did you get the advertisers? Did you actually one of you go out as a salesperson, whether it was phone calls or in person, or did they actually care about you and come to you and say, hey, we heard about your site, we want to advertise.   Tony: And this is a little bit going back to we hear about personal branding all the time, right? Nowadays, it's   Joe: You   Tony: Like   Joe: Know.   Tony: The buzz, personal branding. You've got to build a personal brand. Well, I was already doing that, and so was he, because we were active contributors to an existing community. So to put that in today's context, we have Facebook groups, you've got online communities. Go join those communities and actually be a contributing, valuable member. That's always helping people by answering their questions and giving encouragement and giving advice and sharing your resources and sharing your network. And then you start to build that personal brand of being someone that creates value rather than asking for all the stuff. And whenever it comes time for you to go launch your own community or write a book or launch a podcast or whatever, that's your side of the fence. Guess what? You're going to have a really strong group of supporters of, you know what, this person I like them because they're always helping and they've always never asked me for anything. So here's the thing they're finally asking me for. I'm going to go support that. And that's the way it worked. And I didn't understand that. It's just my nature to be that person. I'm the person that I follow on social media or a forum or anything that I'm spending time on. If I see somebody ask a question that I know the answer to, I'm not going to be. The person goes, well, you know what? Somebody else can answer that because I don't have time or I'm just super important. And   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: Oh, that's too trivial of a question for me to answer. I'll let some beginner answer that one for them. Know, guys, if I'm scrolling and I actually see someone that needs help, I respond. If I have the time, I respond and and it takes me a few seconds. But those few seconds of me investing into that pay dividends. If there's a few seconds here, a few seconds or a few seconds there, and people start to see because what you don't understand is on a social community, especially on the Internet, is that thousand people will see that response over a period of time. Let's say you're in a Facebook group and somebody asks a really good question and you happen to have the answer, even if you think it's trivial or a beginner. But you answer it, thousands of people will see that exchange of information. They will see who asked the question, they will see who answered the question. And if they start to see this pattern showing up over and over, hey, Tony is always helping people. He's always answering questions. You don't think that's a building you some kind of a personal brand capital that you'll be able to use later on if needed, because you may never deploy that, but if needed, it's going to be there for you. So, you know, that was how we built the advertisers because we were helping the manufacturers on other sites by answering some of the technical questions.   Tony: I would buy those parts. I would install those parts. I knew how to. I would give the good and the bad of it and do a little review of those things. And we just answered questions on Web sites. And when it came time to go launch our own website, we were such contributors that they're like, you know, we're going to go see what they're doing, what's what's that's about. And we'd already established relationships with people who are willing to advertise that we actually had ten advertisers in the first week. And I was not the cold caller. My partner, John, he owned a recruiting, a technical recruiting agency, and he loved to call people on the phone. I was like, that is not me. I will build the websites. I will create the graphics, I will set up the servers. I will run things at a technical level like an engineer. And I'm a project manager by trade. By that point is like, oh, I'll plan things out and execute. And he was the one I was going to make the calls. I was OK emailing, but I still even to this day, I don't like making cold calls. And I don't I just don't.   Joe: All right, so the timeline now is you're doing your day job project, managing in the oil and gas arena, and you have this website with your friend and you are selling advertising, you're building. And it's basically if it if it looked the way it did, then that it does now. It's literally a forum that you guys built. But   Tony: Yes.   Joe: Now it's it's probably expanded. Where I see it has the marketplace and it has all these other pieces of it that's helping to build that whole infrastructure on that site.   Tony: Yeah, definitely, we we had access to all the activity logs of the forms that we created so we could see the response of the individual categories that we put in the community and the classified section. We were actually one of the first ones to do a class of five sections in a forum and an automotive forum, especially because we realized that hotrods have used parts to sell and they always want to upgrade or they're looking for a better this and that. So we put this classified in there so people can list their used parts, not new parts, because if they want to sell new parts, they need to be an advertiser. But the used parts, we're fine. And we saw that that really increased the the longevity of their visits by about 40 percent. And just give you guys a context of how busy this site was. On average, we had about 100000 unique visitors per day.   Joe: Same.   Tony: So. So if you're thinking about a speed shop or a car dealership or anything like that, imagine with a hundred thousand people walking through your front door every single day and spending an average of about 20 minutes, looks like that's how we were able to generate the advertising revenue because we had the data logs, we had the Google analytics and we said, hey, what are you guys spending on magazines and television ads? And they go, We're spending 5000 for a half page ad. And this automotive magazine, OK, cool that the automotive magazine has a circulation of about 250 copp, 250000 copies per month. We see that in two and a half days. And we're going to charge you 10 percent of what they charge. And they were like, whoa, like this is a no brainer. And said, even better, you don't have to give us content 30 days in advance ahead of publication because there's that waiting period for publishers to print magazines   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: And they have to have the content editors and make it all look pretty and put it all in the pages and number of the pages. And I said, so if you wanted to do and unveil of a product, you could actually show up that day and your representatives could log in with their account and post a video or something that they've created that day. And you could get real time feedback from the people who see it and give you questions and maybe even pull out their credit card. So, you know, forums and things like the things I created, you know, we were really were the the commercial demise of magazines in that regard. And we've seen the magazines, the publications struggle. But here's the thing. As much as I love magazines and I was a contributing editor for most of the automotive magazines for over a decade, what they failed to do was adapt. They had the brand name, they had the readership, but they were like, you know, we are super important and we're the media and we are magazines and nobody's ever going to replace magazines. And we're just super awesome in that forum stuff. That's just a waste of time Internet fad. And really, this is the kind of conversations that we would have with these publishers, say, hey, we're trying to partner up with you. How about we build out your forum and you've got the audience base? You could start mentioning it in your magazines and, you know, get them to drive to the forum and we can help you monetize that. And they're like, oh, no, we're not interested in that. Our business model is public catering and our ad rates are much higher than yours. So we make a lot more revenue than you and guys like me put them out of business. Guys like me sold my brands for millions of dollars when they went bankrupt. So that's a good lesson and adaptability and understand that you have to go where technology's telling you to go.   Joe: And same with the newspapers, right? They didn't move   Tony: Oh,   Joe: Quick   Tony: Yeah.   Joe: Enough. Same thing. Yeah,   Tony: They have the audience   Joe: I   Tony: And   Joe: Know.   Tony: They don't use it.   Joe: It's crazy.   Tony: The   Joe: Ok,   Tony: Men had it.   Joe: So I don't want to harp on this subject too long, but I want to make sure that the audience understands the the exit route and how that happened out of this. And so still, at this point, you still have a dual career, right? You're still working and you still have this website. It wasn't like this Web site took off so much that you decided that, OK, I'm not doing the day job anymore.   Tony: Now, that's one of the things people ask me is why didn't you quit your job? You know, when we were really the last two years that we're on this website, we're making about hundred thousand a year profit and. People are like, well, why don't you quit because at that point, my job was probably making 150, 175 range and I said, well, I also work offshore. I did a lot of offshore construction. So sometimes I was gone 28 days, sometimes with Internet, sometimes without. And so me being a project manager and engineer, I was very well adept at writing processes and procedures and systems that other people could follow. That's what I did for a career. And I said, I don't need to fire myself. So how can I create processes and systems to be able to hand these to other people that can do these in my absence? Because I don't can't guarantee if I'm going to be there or not. And so that's what I did, is we started to build a team at about 75 people on the team and we paid them in perks and free car parts and sponsorships and sometimes, you know, ten, ninety nine dollars just to do certain tasks. And that's what I did, is I fired myself. And what that did is allowed me to use my website as a consumer now. So I get to be at the same ground level and see what the problems were and what we could improve on and how we can add more features to attract more eyeballs and more time on screen.   Tony: And a lot of the things that Facebook and Instagram do nowadays, we were doing a long time ago. We just had to do it manually versus, you know, with A.I. So that's what we do, is we try to stay focused on how can we increase engagement, how to increase eyeballs, how to increase time on screen, and what was the hot topics and what are the things that we can do to create content that was going to keep them coming back as the value proposition that needed exist for them to be entertained or get some information. And there's a reason my website is still existing and I sold it. And still it is still the number one General Motors website to this day. It's been 20 years. But the thing is that I didn't quit the job because I didn't need to. And it goes back to that scarcity mindset that I grew up with, that if I can work the career and make, you know, 150000 plus like, why would I quit that? Because, one, we were the top of the market share. We're number one. And they're always trying to people trying to take us down or literally hundreds of copies of our website, always trying to take us down. But we are way ahead of these people. Right. And so I had the market share me working one hour a day versus eight hours. There was not going to ATX my revenue. It wasn't going to increase revenue at all. I had the market share.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: So the hours versus multiplication just wasn't there. Right. I was realistic about that. I could have been lazy and played PlayStation at that time or Xbox 360 and built cars and done nothing but. But why would I do that? Is like in I wasn't where I wanted to be at the time, so I was OK stacking money, working to career that also I had to struggle to get that engineering degree. And for a long time I felt like I didn't want to waste that effort. You know, I built it. I spent this time and investment and the hardship I explained earlier and I said, you know what? I don't want to waste my degree. I was pursuing the corporate executive path in oil and gas eventually. So I was very good at my career and I was very good at entrepreneurship at the same time. And I always find that was fascinating because I I saw my entrepreneur friends on one side of the fence and I saw my employee friends on the other side of the fence. And the mindsets are completely different between the two. And I would try to cross over. So I was what you would call an intrapreneur, someone who's an entrepreneur that works within a corporation to try to always enhance, improve, evolve. And I was always met with resistance, especially the larger the company names game. I was working for major oil companies in my later career. I mean, I left in 2015 and it was always like, hey, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. You know, this is the way we've always done it. Like all these things that   Joe: Mm   Tony: Make   Joe: Hmm.   Tony: Corporations collapse.   Joe: Same old thing, yeah.   Tony: Same thing over and over and over. And it drove me nuts. And but yeah, that's that's why I never quit, man. I was good at doing both.   Joe: Ok, so how did you how did the approach happen to buy the website?   Tony: And that's a funny one, because at the time, very few people understood the amount of volume and dollars that was coming through a business model like that, because they just thought, oh, it's a cool car side. People are hanging around and making, you know, talking about cars. They're probably making, you know, 50000 a year doing this. You know that that's probably what they're thinking.   Joe: And   Tony: Nobody   Joe: I have   Tony: Knew.   Joe: To I have to make the point that when you did this, it was hard to do what you did. It was not the drag and drop and all of   Tony: Uh.   Joe: That stuff. It was not easy because I grew up I was telling a story the other day. I used to teach companies how to use an Internet browser like   Tony: Oh, yeah,   Joe: I   Tony: You   Joe: If   Tony: Know   Joe: I'm old   Tony: You   Joe: Enough   Tony: Know,   Joe: That   Tony: We're from   Joe: The   Tony: The same era.   Joe: Well, I'm probably older than you. But anyhow, you you did this at a really hard time. And when you're talking about the you know, the construction of the site and then on top of it being smart enough to keep all of the logs and Google analytics, I mean, it's hard to use today. I can't even imagine what it was like when you were trying to pull the data out when you did it. So I just wanted to make that point. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think people need to understand   Tony: Now.   Joe: That this you have to put it into the context of when it happened. And it was not easy at the time that you did it.   Tony: Yeah, yeah. For context, I sold the website in 2007 and I was 34 and multimillionaire and Facebook and Instagram came out two years later.   Joe: There you go.   Tony: See, so everything that you see now, easy, like I could just do a video and   Joe: The.   Tony: I could do targeted ads and I can find all these people like we didn't have that we had we had to rely on joint ventures with media and racing events and person type events to be able to to really build the snowball of momentum.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: There was no like buying targeted ads. And it's super easy nowadays. Like, really, there's the excuses nowadays for entrepreneurs to not have success is like it just makes me laugh. It's like, come on, it's never been easier. The information has never been easier to find. All the stuff is being shared nowadays, which we had to go learn ourselves the hard way. And, you know, so the approach going back to the question of the approach. So it wasn't uncommon for people to casually email us saying, hey, you think about selling your website and. We never really thought about it, to be honest, because we're doing pretty well. We didn't need to sell it and we were really taking a lot of the profits, rolling it back in the company to make it grow because we had careers. And so they would always just just out of curiosity, once someone was, hey, would you like to sell your website? We always would entertain the question. We would say, well, what do you think it's worth? Because we're curious ourselves. Like we   Joe: All   Tony: Didn't know anything about   Joe: Right.   Tony: Valuation.   Joe: All right.   Tony: Like, what do you think it's worth? Like what's your offer? And most of it would be like, you know, I was thinking like Dr. Evil. We know when he talked about the one million dollars like this and it was like it. Going to go watch that movie if you haven't. You know what I'm talking about, but they'll be like, how about a hundred thousand dollars?   Joe: Right.   Tony: Thinking like, man, we sold advertising packages for bigger than that, you know, like, do you want to buy an ad package or do you want to buy the website?   Joe: Right.   Tony: You know, and and it just shows you that they had no clue. And that probably happened a dozen times over a period of quarters. And we just kind of laughed about it like they don't know. And we're not going to tell them what we're making because it's just they just have no clue. And and this is one company came in and they their eventual buyers were a little bit different in their approach. And they said, hey, we're looking at acquiring the top level forums and each brand marquee. We've already bought this one, this one, this one and this one. And all of those brands we were well recognized with, like it was the best BMW side, the best Volkswagen site, like top level names on par with the one I'd built for General Motors. I was like, whoa, if those people sold, then maybe there's some there's something to this one. Right.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: I remember having this conversation with John. And as a man, we're kind of getting long in the tooth on this. I want to go build on some different projects. I want to do something different. And, you know, what do you think? And he's like, we're both on board. Like, you know, if they make us this offer and we came up with a number. Right. And I said, if they come up to this and we can negotiate it, I think we both agree that will sell as I call. So we responded back and said we'd entertain this offer. You know, what kind of questions would you like answered? And they actually asked if they could put their Google Analytics pixel into our website so they could see for themselves if we're full of shit or not. I said, OK, no problems. I'll put it in there to help them put it in there. And then about two weeks later, they called back and they said, we're at it, have a discussion with you guys about the moving forward. And I said, OK, cool. And so their initial offer was double our number that we had come up with in our mind.   Joe: Oh, my gosh.   Tony: And we're like, oh. So we had to contain our excitement, first of all. And act like, oh, OK, well, we'll consider   Joe: Right.   Tony: That we're going to have a talk about that and we'll get back to you. And the first thing I said is like, John, we need a lawyer, we need it. We need to get an attorney. That's a good with M&A and we need to have some conversations with him on these early contracts, negotiation things. And of course, luckily, he had a good friend of his that specialize that in Chicago. And we got on the phone we talked a couple of times, went through some details of the preliminary offer. And he's like, so you're going to counter right? Or like, well, should we? And he's like, yeah, there are first offers, always the lowest   Joe: Mm   Tony: Offer,   Joe: Hmm.   Tony: Like, what do you want to make? And so we said, well, what about this? No, it's like worst they can say is no. And so we put that back out to them and they said, sounds good to us. And   Joe: Wow.   Tony: We're like, damn it, maybe we should ask   Joe: All   Tony: For some   Joe: Right.   Tony: More. So of course, we're not going to be greedy because it was already double our number in our mind. And we sold them and then they said yes, and we're so cool. We went down that road and it was about a better one year due diligence phase of going through all the accounting and understanding, all the systems and processes in place and negotiating the contract and the details. And that was a really, I would say, a semi stressful situation,   Joe: Yeah,   Tony: Because   Joe: I can imagine.   Tony: Even though that the millions of dollars is looking in your mind, you don't really think it's real. Actually, because I actually interviewed somebody on my show yesterday. It sold a nine figure exit and he and I had very similar, even though he was a whole different range of the money. I made very similar psychological things going through your mind because it seems fake until you see it in your actual bank account.   Joe: Yep.   Tony: And even when you initially see it in your bank account, it still feels a little fake until you, like, spend it a little bit, you're like it's real, OK, they're not going to call me back and say, oh, we made a mistake. We need to have our money back. Right.   Joe: All right.   Tony: So does these weird things that we go through the exit companies and only one percent of businesses actually sell. And to hear this kind of experience is very rare. But I wanted to be really transparent and show people that because it's a it's very intrusive to go through that your books better be damn right. If you think you can lie about things that your company is doing or not doing, you're going to get discovered during that because lawyers get involved and they're digging through all kinds of stuff. I mean, they're literally looking for ways to devalue your company and you're looking for ways to add value to your company during that one year process. So you just got to be transparent about things and keep your books in order. That's the main thing. And learn how to build valuation in your companies. And it just turns out we were just doing everything right. We had the recurring revenue business model. We had presold ads. We were cash flow positive. We had proven database of, you know, information of users and their emails and our names, which increased valuation based on customer acquisition cost. It would cost them to go find those people in the same market. So we had a lot of things that were checking the boxes. And it was also a tech platform with a really strong brand, which also increased valuation. So we just did everything the right way. And the reason we did that is because we just did things like business. Again, it wasn't a hobby to us.   Joe: Yep, so you get to the final stage, it gets sold, they buy it, you sell it, you're still working. How long did you stay at your job once you exited this company?   Tony: Another eight more.   Joe: Eight more years.   Tony: Eight more years.   Joe: Wow,   Tony: Yeah,   Joe: That was   Tony: I   Joe: Not the   Tony: Actually   Joe: Answer   Tony: Had   Joe: I expected.   Tony: I had spin offs, I had verticals that I created from that acquisition, I had a retail company selling wheels for cars because, one, we didn't have an advertiser that was selling wheels. And I was referring a lot of business out the door. And I said, you meant I could just do the buying and get another LLC and create my own wheel company and sell the wheels. And, you know, that became a seven figure business on its own. And when the website came up for sale, I said, do you guys want the retail side? Or like, oh, now we just want the data. We want the assets. We don't want anything to do with retail. They're a marketing house.   Joe: Yes.   Tony: I was like, so I could just create another LLC and keep this business to myself. And that's and so I did. So I still had a seven figure business even after that. That was part time that I enjoyed that kept me in the industry, kept me relevant, kept me engaged in cars. And so but I was also in that pursuit of becoming an executive with an oil and gas. That was my my goal. And I was really good at navigating that. And I made it towards making about 250000 a year in salary. And and near the end of that, I started to realize that the oil industry just doesn't treat people as good as they should. And I started to have to be that person that had to make tough decisions on employing certain people. And even though they were high performers and I got to see a lot of shady things in H.R., the things that are unwritten that we always hear about, like ageism and like cutting people before their pension fully   Joe: Oh,   Tony: Hits   Joe: Man.   Tony: Because, you know, it's a it's a it's a it's a financial decision. It's not personal. And I get to see this multiple times. And it started to impact me. And it's like, you know, I don't want to support another industry that does not support people, that we're we're basically disposable. And when I was young and disposable and making less money, it was very easy to find me a replacement job because I was it was inexpensive and unexperienced as I started to make, you know, multiple six figures. And in my 40s, if I were getting laid off, it was typically a six to eight month sitting on the bench waiting for the next bus to come around type scenario. And a lot of times I was having to fire myself and put people in my my desk that was ten years younger than me and 100000. I was less income than made just to keep the bench warm. For me to return at the market turned around. I was like, I don't like being in this situation. And so, you know, I took a near-death experience for me, racing cars to finally realize, like, I don't want to go back to that and I need to go create more impact in the world. And that's what I did, is I decided I need to go teach people what I have passions for. And one was cars, which I built a lot of success in cars. The other thing has always been entrepreneurship. And so I said, OK, that's how I'm going to best impact this world, is teach people business and confidence around being an entrepreneur. And that's what I've been doing since 2017. It took me two years, even after leaving my job, to think about what I really wanted to do. You know, was it was it a nonprofit, wasn't a philanthropy? What is it that I wanted to do? And for me, I just love to be a teacher, so that's why I do what I do now.   Joe: So do you. I've thought about this question a lot in regards to you, if this if the site didn't do what it did and you didn't sell it and make that kind of money. Have you ever thought about where you would be today?   Tony: Yeah, I would still be working in the oil and gas industry for sure.   Joe: So   Tony: For sure.   Joe: With viewers, listeners and viewers that will hear this. What would you say to them if they were to say, well, he I mean, you did the work, it wasn't like you got lucky, but you got lucky in the sense that someone wanted to buy it. Right. I mean, and and   Tony: Yeah, it wasn't for sale,   Joe: Right.   Tony: So you're right.   Joe: So someone saying, well, what's the chances of that happening to me? Or how do I if that doesn't happen, then I do have to just continue on the path that I'm on. So what would you say to them about not getting a lucky break like that? How do you create that break for yourself to to then become this entrepreneur and service the world and do good things?   Tony: I mean, honestly. My book, Side Hustle Millionaire, teaches people how to take the ideas for businesses and create reality out of those, because I was always ask, hey, what do you think about this business idea and what do you think about this? And the thing is that too many people take pride in having ideas. They think that there's their super smart. They think they're genius because they have this idea. And, you know, you and I both know that thousands of people die every single day with brilliant ideas and take them to the grave that were never materialized. And so ideas really aren't worth anything until you take any actions and see some results from those. So don't give yourself too much credit if you're listening to this or watching this, if you've got an idea, unless you try it and it's OK to fail, sometimes failing is actually the best lessons. But for people who are employed when you're all your bills are paid, you need to start thinking about what the number is and the number is what is the bare necessities. You need to be able to sustain your lifestyle or even downgrade your lifestyle.   Tony: Let's be honest, because a lot of times people live above their means. What is the number? And I'm thinking a dollar number. What is the actual number like? Take your rent or your mortgage, your car, note your insurance, your food, your utilities, and put them on a spreadsheet and go, this is the number. And if it's 2000 or 3000 or 10000, whatever that number is, you need to have that number in your mind. Because once you start to make a profit in your side business that meets or exceeds that number, you need to really force yourself into a decision moment. Like you need to know that number is so important to know that number, because a lot of times we find that side hustlers and people that do things on the side will exceed that number, but never force themselves into decision mode. Because the question that you have to have in this decision is, should I just drop my career and go full time with this? And I have two reasons to do that. Right. Like you heard me give examples of why I didn't leave because it wouldn't have increased my income   Joe: At.   Tony: Like I was the number one in the category. I had all the market share. The extra hours would not have translated to extra dollars. It made no sense for me to leave. Now, if you do have a company and you realize that, hey, if I can contribute eight extra hours, maybe nine hours, if you have a commute to go to work, if I can commit nine extra hours a day to this business, what are the numbers look like? Does it scale? Does it make a higher profit? Because I'm already at the number I could actually leave right now. I actually have a parachute on my back that I could deploy that it's going to replace my salary already. So why am I staying here? And if the answer is like, yeah, extra hours will increase the business, it will also increase your freedom and your confidence. And most people really don't understand the confidence that entrepreneurship brings because I've never experienced that. There's something beautiful about commuting to your coffeemaker and walking to your office and you're in your own house, in your pajamas   Joe: Aymen.   Tony: And and waking up like you fire up the email, you go, Oh, I made three thousand dollars last night while I was asleep. I mean, it just sounds so unrealistic. But the reality is, is realistic realistically, when you start to surround yourself with people who are doing it and who could teach you how to do that, your eyes just start to open up and you go, wow, I remember thinking, eighty five dollars an hour at work was like a lot of money because that's close to two hundred thousand dollars salary. You know, I remember negotiating like they wanted to give me eighty, eighty dollars an hour and I was like, I want nineteen. OK, how about we meet in the middle eighty five. I mean I was at 180, 200 range. If you do the if you do the math. And the thing is, is there's this perception that multiple six figures is a lot of money and corporate and it is because I get it, the average income in the United States is 67000 a year. Some people will never make 100000 hours. It's sad to me because I can make that in a weekend now.   Tony: And had you asked me twenty years ago if that was possible with a laugh, it's like there's no way you can make a hundred thousand dollars in a week. And that just sounds stupid, like you're dreaming. You get rich quick, you join some kind of network marketing or whatever, like it's bullcrap, Tony. But now I've done it a couple of times, like why did I ever have these limitations on income and why did that exist? And you start to think about where that comes from. It's because of your supervisors, from your parents is from your teacher, your professors. They're telling you what you they think you're worth based on what the market will bear. Oh, you're a mechanical engineer. Well, you can make one hundred fifty thousand dollars if you work twenty years. So, OK, so your self-worth becomes well, I can make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars by the time I'm sixty, and maybe they'll give a bonus to me and my last five years as an attaboy and I'll get a Rolex. And   Joe: Right.   Tony: Why the hell we give Rolex is to people that are retiring. Like what do they need to be on time anymore.   Joe: Exactly.   Tony: Like thank you. What, why don't you give me the Rolex when I'm twenty, so I'm always on time. Right. So a lot of weird things. They were created in these boundaries and and so people tend to define their self-worth based on a limitation of their salary. Their profession, which is really sad, is really sad.   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: And none of these limitations exist in reality. It's that there's no such thing as a limitation. And when you start to hang around people that think like I do, you're going to challenge everything you believe. And it's going to be really hard to to unwind a lot of the things that were were screwed up with. But it's crazy. The reality of. It really exists.   Joe: Yeah, and this is why I do my podcast and I openly admit it to people, is it's because it's a selfish endeavor for me to be able to hang out with people like you and just virtually rub elbows. And at some point, hopefully we meet in person. But that's the goal, is to change the mindset. I watched my father just work himself to death. He literally was. I forget if it was two weeks away from retiring and had a stroke   Tony: Oh,   Joe: And   Tony: Man.   Joe: Was paralyzed on his right side. I watched him work harder than any man I ever watched. And I just I don't want to see that. I don't want to experience that. So I appreciate that. So you jumped ahead on me, which is great, because I want to know. So here's twenty seventeen. Your you decide that you're going to do you know, you're   Tony: The   Joe: Going   Tony: Coaching   Joe: To do   Tony: And the   Joe: The   Tony: The   Joe: Coaching.   Tony: Community building, yeah.   Joe: So when did you decide to write Side Hustle a Millionaire. When did you decide that. Well I have to write a book on this because that's a big endeavor. I everybody I hear that has written a book says it's probably one of the hardest things I ever had to do.   Tony: You know, the funny thing about writing the book. Side Hustle Millionaire was a idea in my mind five years before I actually wrote it. Five years, because I knew even because I was around 40 at that time and I was like, you know, I need to do something that helps more people, you know, before the Internet flex on Instagram, I was the one that would post driveway photos with 10 cars and things like that, because, one, I had some insecurity issues and self validation things that I had to work through. And I didn't ever feel like I belong with the rich people. And I had to prove that I belong with them and a whole lot of weird things that we grow up through. But besides, the point is that as I wanted to start teaching people how I got those cars, because the only people that were benefiting from that knowledge were my friends and like people I worked with people within my close proximity because one, I didn't like being on camera. I didn't like being on stage. I didn't like my recorded voice. And I had a lot of insecurities around that, too. And I became a highly successful kind of in the background, and I was fine with that. So anytime people were like, oh, you should go write a book and you could teach all the stuff, I'd be like, Oh man, but I'm so busy. You know, I've got a kid and a wife and I've got a career and I've got this retail company. And I would just make a a list of bullshit excuses of things why I wasn't really serving the purpose that I am on today.   Tony: And it was all stem based on the fear of criticism. Right. And so even when I go through this near-death experience, racing cars and deciding that I need to impact the world, I was still approaching it from a I need to make impact. But I was still being cowardly about my way of doing that, my method. And so I said, you know what, I could write a book. And that doesn't mean I have to be on a stage or a camera or radio or TV and I can just write this book and it'll be a good way that's affordable. It's portable, and I can get what's in my mind out to thousands of people. And so I decided in really November of 2017 I'm going to write a book and I validated the idea and use my social media to ask what they would want from me. And I asked them what questions they would want answered. I was really good at using my entrepreneurship, evaluating a product before I spend time on it. I did that. I applied the same principles to a book which is another product. And while I was writing the book, my editor, Mike, I was giving him a chapter at a time to review and he was like, Man, this is going to be a good book. I cannot tell because he's helped a lot of people become bestsellers and and one day he's like, they're going to want to interview.   Joe: You're like, oh, no.   Tony: Yeah, he's like because you might be on TV, radio, podcasts, and I felt that Stagefright, again, coming up was like, I'm in. But I'm kind of a daredevil anyways, and I said, you know what, this is a sign. This is this is a sign I need to go take care of this fear. So just like any other normal human with a fear or something or challenge like so just like most people with a fear of public speaking or any other challenge, they basically get on Google or they get on Syria, they ask, you know, how do we overcome this? And for the results, I said, join a Toastmasters or join a Rotary Club and hire a speaking coach. I said, OK, this is something I have to do. And and obviously, it was really, really avoiding this kind of scenario. So I joined Toastmasters. It's a it's a nonprofit that teaches public speaking and leadership. And there's local clubs all over the world and is really inexpensive. I think it was like 45 dollars for our whole six months. And I said this is like a no brainer. So I'll I'll try that. And so I said, if I'm going to go, I'm going. I'm not going to be a spectator. I'm going to make myself really uncomfortable. I want to sit in the front row and I'm going to raise my hand every meeting with, like once a week and just volunteer to do something in the front of the room and just make myself uncomfortable. And because I knew that the book was about five months out and I needed to get ahead of this. Right. So   Joe: Yeah.   Tony: So that's what I did is so I would learn a new tactic of public speaking at a meeting. And then for the next seven days, I would do videos. I would I would go on Instagram or Facebook and just practice what I was learning on public speaking to my phone and is really uncomfortable. And I did not. All those videos exist or like in May, June of 2017. And I basically just I just did them every day. And that's how I improved. And I used to be so afraid of just doing videos, I would do them in my truck. Somebody walked by in the park in like an aisle away, I would put the camera down and act like I wasn't doing any videos because I was so weird to go through that. And I would record myself like ten takes and I would finally get one. That was the best I could do at that given moment. And I would share that one. And and that's how I did better. And I did that for over a year. And now within six months of me joining Toastmasters and doing those reps and making myself uncomfortable and doing about a speech per month, I actually started competing and representing that club and the Toastmasters competitions. And I actually won and went three rounds like   Joe: Wow.   Tony: I went I was like fourth place in all of Houston, you know, after doing the club level than the area level that I went to district. And it was it was crazy. So even after winning a couple of competitions, I, I finally started realizing there might actually be something to this. Like I actually might be OK at doing this.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Tony: So it's me winning competitions to finally realized that. And like anything else that I get into, I just go all in. And to me, public speaking was the thing I needed to go get good at. And I focused on it. I studied who I thought were the best speakers. I learned from people to hire a speaking coach. And I did reps and and I actually became the president of that Toastmasters club. And I grew it to one of the largest clubs in Houston and had about 50 active members at the time. I was president for a year or so. I got to go from being transformed to transforming hundreds of people that came in and out those doors for a period of over four years of being in that organization. And and I just I've seen so many changes that most people really underestimate the the quickness you can change. And I would say for most Toastmasters, you can come in definitely afraid. And if you participate within three to six months, you'll be a completely different person. So it happens that fast. And I've seen it too many times to to argue the results. So if you're out there and you're worried about public speaking or doing videos like this or you have a fear of that, like go join, make yourself uncomfortable, do the reps and it is a skill is not a talent. When you hear someone speaking like I do now, it's not a talent. It's not something I was born with. It wasn't even a thought in my mind to be a public speaker. But I learned the tactics and the strategies of effective communication and how to use my vocal inflections and speed and volume control presence, hands. All the things that you never even think about are part of communication. You learn when you actually get coached and you actually it's a skill. It's just like learning a new language.   Joe: Yeah, and it was a real surprise to me, because I actually heard you say that you had a real fear of public speaking in it. I think it was a clubhouse room because you were giving advice to someone. And when you said that, I was like, I can't be the same person. I just, you know, I didn't understand it. And I personally think, you know, I come from the entertainment side of things. I own an entertainment booking agency here in Phoenix, probably one of the biggest ones here. So I was a performer my whole life. So it's not hard for me to necessarily do this, even though, yeah, a lot of people don't like how they look. They don't like how they're their own voice, all these things. But   Tony: Yeah.   Joe: I think you have a great voice. It's it's incredibly soothing the way that's what I liked about how you presented yourself in those rooms. It wasn't like I'm great and it wasn't like there's a lot of people that just sort of yell and they're like, you know, that's how they   Tony: I'm   Joe: Get there   Tony: Super awesome,   Joe: Exist.   Tony: And for nine hundred ninety seven dollars,   Joe: But   Tony: You can get the course that will make you a millionaire   Joe: That   Tony: And one   Joe: Is

I had a conversation with Ms. Kristina Crooks, a certified ontological coach to learn more about what ontology is and how it's used in personal development through coaching. It was interesting to learn that unlike coaches that work with you on one piece of the puzzle, an ontological coach works on all aspects of the human being. Thank you for watching! Enjoy, Joe Kristina Crooks: Founder and Owner, Empowered Human and Ontological Performance Coach Website: https://www.kristinacrooks.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/empoweredhumanglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kristina.crooks.7 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristina-crooks-42b41124/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVY40i4eM2wAXWQqSNh6iEQ Contact: https://calendly.com/kristinacrooks Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: My guest this week is Christina Crooks and ontological performance coach Christina and I met on Club House and I joined a couple of her rooms and I found what she does. Very interesting. Ontological coaching takes an in-depth exploration into who you are being. Part of her process is one, where are you currently to define your short, medium and long term goals? Three, what are you committed to for what needs to be added to remove or transform, to align you? Being with your doing ontology is the art and science of being a human being. First coined by Aristotle with Christina, she will help you create a design life where your vision becomes your reality. Christina uses what she calls a five point star concept, which targets your spiritual, emotional, mental, physical and financial aspects of your life. I very much enjoy this interview and I hope you do as well. Once again, thank you for listening. Now enjoy this interview with Miss Christina from.   Joe: Everyone, I want to welcome my guest today is Christina Crookes.   Joe: Christina and I met on the new app called Clubhouse. Some of you may be on it. Some of you may not be yet. But to be honest, I don't know how I landed in one of her rooms, but she invited me on stage.   Joe: We got the talking and we had a little conversation a couple of days later through Zoom just to get to know each other. And she does oncological coaching. Right, that I that I see that right. OK, got it correct. And and then when I was in one of your groups, I saw there was a bunch of people in there that are sort of part of your family in the same coaching arena. And I went and looked it up and and I don't totally get it. So I'm glad you're here to explain it to me.   Joe: One sentence I read said, some have said that ontological coaching is coaching to the human soul. You can take it from there and run with it. But I'm very interested in what it is that you do and how you help people and how you got into this. So actually, let's start there.   Joe: Why don't you give me the backstory on how you got into the coaching that you're now doing?   Kristina: Awesome. Yeah, thank you, Joe. I got into it because I've always been a student of personal growth and I've always been interested in the brain and how human beings work and understanding our psychology and our behaviours. So I've I've consistently, over the course of my adult life, sought out different ways to learn that.   Kristina: And I think it probably really started when I was in high school Learning about Choice Theory by Dr. William Glasser. And it's very similar to the hierarchy of needs. And I found it fascinating. So we would teach this to teachers and administrators.   Kristina: And it was it was a way for them to understand their students and understanding that they were trying to meet their needs and however they behaved or performed in their classrooms. And so it started in education. And I thought, I love this. I love this kind of work and what this is all about.   Kristina: And then fast forward several decades. And I was always looking for new understandings and new ways to put into place. And then I started going to something called Wisdom 2.0. It's a conference that happens in San Francisco, in New York every year.   Kristina: Last year, I think, was probably the last live when they'll do for a little while and this year it's happening virtually and I started meeting all kinds of different people and I started putting more connecting more dots, more and more and more.   Kristina: And then I started doing and then I started coaching on my own. But I was I was not yet trained for it. And I knew there was something missing. So I was searching and searching. And I had met many people through Facebook and Facebook lives and things like that. And I came across a friend of a friend that he posted. Something that it said something like, my coach advised me to share all the growth I've had in the last 20 something years of being a coach, and he shared all the things he was free from.   Kristina: And I realized that the entire list he had were things that resonated with me. And some of them I had worked through and some of them I was still working on, and then others were blind spots I hadn't identified yet. And but they resonated and I went, I need to know I need to know this man. So I reached out to him through a private message and I said, I want to know you.   Kristina: Can we have a caller? Can we meet? We only lived forty five minutes from each other. So we said, yeah, let's let's meet. How do you want to do that? And I said, let's go for a hike, which is really funny because he actually told me later he hates hiking. So it was just hilarious. But he said yes to something he's not a fan of.   Kristina: But come to find out, meeting him a couple of times, he had at that point he had been a coach for nearly twenty seven years, was one of the founders from a coaching organization called Accomplishment Coaching. There's two that teach ontological coaching. And I didn't know what it meant either. I just knew it was interesting. And I liked him and I wanted to know what he knew. And I hired him as my coach. I worked with him for almost two years. And the beauty of working with a coach every week for that length of time in the in the many layers we worked together was that I learned what was missing in how I was coaching people. Firstly, I was vastly under trained and under skilled as a coach. And there's a very low entry point for coaches. Lots of people can call themselves a coach without knowing what they're doing.   Joe: And I was one of them is one of them. And the market is flooded with those people right now.   Kristina: It is. It is. And so it's funny because now I find myself I have to catch my own intolerance for that and have compassion that they really want to help people. But I encourage I encourage people all the time. If you're interested in being in that field, please go get trained. Please find a good coach that knows what they're doing. They can guide you through that process because you will be your first student and your first coach. That's the right term. And so I was I began working with him and it was really funny because when I started working with him, I wanted to know all of the philosophy because the philosophy of ontology goes back to Aristotle. And he he was it was really about understanding your relationship to the world around you and asking good questions. And that, for me, checked the box of having gone seven years ago when I was going through my divorce to a place called the Option Institute on the East Coast. And it's part option institute and part of the Autism Centers of America. And I have several friends whose children are autistic and they go there regularly. But I wanted to go for option institute. An option was very much a philosophy on life and how your environment can change when you see with different eyes and you look at it differently and change your relationship to it and your context that you're identifying things and and discovering. And so that that was in alignment with choice theory many years before. And then when I found my coach, it was in alignment with Option Institute, all all around options and choices and how we choose to show up for our life.   Kristina: And then I went through Landmark of what Landmark Worldwide, which is very much based in ontology. And they they do it in a much more masculine way and a little bit more aggressive way than I do. But or even my coach is incredibly gentle. And I started working through all these things that I had noticed. I had been blocked for me. And one of my things was that I know I love to have the answer. And there's actually neuroscience that backs that up. We get a hit of dopamine and adrenaline and maybe a few other neurotransmitters that reinforce us being right and people telling us, oh, you're right. Oh, you're right. So I was addicted to that and I still love it. But by talking about saying that I love it, I can I can identify when it happens so that I'm not stuck in that pattern. And I I consistently put myself in spaces where I'm not the smartest person in the room by design. So working with him and being professionally trained as a coach changed the game for me. And it changed my life not only how I found and operated with clients and discover new clients, but how I operated in my own life with my partner, with my relationship with time, my relationship with money, my relationship with how I worked for others, and how I worked with others. My relationship with failure. All of those things, and at that same time, I was working at a small special needs school, doing all the business development, so I was applying it constantly with the kids I was working with.   Kristina: I was applying it with the the California Department of Education and how I operated in that and noticing when I was in resistance and frustrated with how the school systems work. And I was able to constantly change my context. And that doesn't mean it was always simple and easy. But I had different tools. My toolbox was growing. And I think the biggest thing that shifted in that process was I kept going back to what is the difference between a really good a really good friend that can operate with you on all these different levels and a coach, because I was having great conversations, but it wasn't necessarily leading to an outcome. And that's action, being able to take purposeful and intentional action every day and being able to supply them with concrete actions that I can say to them, how about how about we try this? What do you think about this action? And I used to ask it that way. Now I just give them actions based on what I know about them. But it's never homework. And people can then get on the court of their life and go and apply the things they're learning, regardless of whether it's perfect or not. That's not the goal. The goal is to be in action with your life so that you're constantly in a yes and conversation with the world around you and identifying what works and what doesn't work. And so ontology is really about our relationship with everything externally, being in alignment with what's happening in terms of, wow, OK, that's a lot.   Joe: Yeah, it is.   Joe: And it seems like a really good time for you and I to talk in my own life. You know how things just show up, right? I assume they show up at the right time. Right. That's the hope is that all of these things show up at the right time when you're prepared for it or you can handle it, or it's time for you to take the next step or whatever the case might be.   Joe: And I'm going through I'm beyond a midlife crisis because, you know, it's like I just had my fifty ninth birthday. So next year is a big one.   Joe: When I do things, I do them well and I'm hard on myself and I want to do want to be really, really successful with all that I do. So I'm going through a lot of things right now on my own. I'm trying to say, OK, well what is it that I, I want to offer the world?   Joe: How can I serve? And at the same time. The financial piece of it is a large portion of it, and I heard someone say the other day, I watched the video and how we're almost internally programmed right at a young age and whatever that means for each person. And so you literally could have. The Matrix is set up where you need to break out of certain habits that have been formed internally through your system. However you're wired, however, I forget how it was played, but really well. But it's like you might have adversity to financial freedom. There might be something internally that you just keep blocking. But the fact that you can't go out and become very wealthy and help to serve others. And if we just talk about money for a second, because you mentioned it in, there were different aspects, right? You mentioned money. And and then like three other things, I forget what they were, time, money, time and my relationship with others. OK, so let's just talk about the money for a second, if you don't mind. So I don't mind. OK, so I don't know where it comes from, but we think of maybe making too much money or wanting to make money or wealth or all of that in in a, in a it's like a dirty word. And I don't know where it comes from. I don't know how we get it. So maybe you can if you've dealt with this with clients and even dealt with over time.   Joe: Ok, so let's pick that apart, because I think that's a big that's a big thing. And and I'm interested in knowing who would come to you and need that sort of help. And I would assume pretty much everybody, because we all seem to have problems.   Joe: Everyone's got funny money stories. Yeah. So Zoom story around money.   Joe: So I'm going shut up and let you talk about what you do with that sort of thing.   Kristina: Yeah. And you're good. That's that's awesome. There's two things I'd say to that.   Kristina: One, I've picked up a new saying recently that I learned from a new friend of mine named Glen. And he he has spoken of this this phrase that I is part of my toolbox. Now, if you don't know why you believe what you believe, those aren't your beliefs.   Kristina: If you don't know why you believe what you believe, those aren't your beliefs. And so often we pick up things from our families and things from culture and things from society that we feel we should believe that we take on into our beingness. And things like money is money is bad or money is dirty. Or if I especially for healers and people in the space of healing that if I charge or if I charge a certain amount now I'm just manipulating people. Now I'm just taking advantage. That's a really common belief set of if I'm going to do this, I should just give it away and do it for free. Well, when when people are in the healing profession, what I say a lot of times is you do a disservice to people when you don't get them to put their money where their mouth is because they won't show up the same way. If you and you can think about the times that you pay for something versus go to a free event, if it's a free event, you think it's not a big deal if I don't show up. But if you pay for it, you're going to be in that seat or on that call or in that conversation because you've paid for it. You want to get what you paid for. So it's that there's a transaction that happens in that. And when people are very relationally based, they don't want to mix the transaction into it. It feels awkward. It feels awkward because it goes against a lot of the belief systems that are one of the pillars for that category of people.   Kristina: There's nothing wrong with it, just identifying that it's a blind spot and it's something that's keeping you stuck. So I see wealth as a five point star and I see wealth as spiritual, emotional, mental, physical and financial. And if your financial health is out of whack, it's going to send off bells for your wellness. Because when you're doing something that is a paid service, that when one exercise I use with clients all the time, that seems to be helpful, which is good because I love it. I love using it. So I'm glad it helps them. Think about the last time you paid for something that you loved paying for, whether it was a massage or a plane ticket somewhere or an experience or a coach, whatever that thing was. I loved being able to pay my coach. I loved being able pay to go to Wisdom 2.0, even though it was several hundred dollars. So and there's other events that I've been to that have been much more than that. And and I was so grateful to do that. Well, if if you've done a lot of things that you were regretful of, that may be impacting your own money story. And most of the beliefs that we form happened around seven to ten or somewhere in there, because that's when as children, that's when we start to identify that we are separate from the world around us at seven years old.   Kristina: And so we start identifying what we need to do and what we need to say to be part of our communities and get connection because it's a natural ingrained human need to connect with other people. So we do things that. Leave us feeling connected if we come from a family like I came from a family that didn't that was incredibly judgmental of people that were really wealthy and felt that it was they were vapid and all these different things. So it's so for me, it was difficult to address the money story because I felt the same way that a lot of people that are healers who come to me feel. I have felt that I've stood in that place and there was a switch that happened where I went, Oh. In order to get their full commitment in the work we're doing and then be committed to themselves, they have to make this investment. It's a high quality investment. And I had a client say that to me in the last year. I said, what made you decide to invest in coaching specifically with me? And he said, you're high quality. And I wanted a high quality investment as well. But then I put that I backed it up. I it was it's not about me. So even though that feels good, like I just rub it all over my ego, it's at the same time it wasn't about me. It was about this person making a budget for something that was for them.   Kristina: Most people don't have a budget for coaching or personal growth, so it comes out of something else. They have a budget for their car, for their house, for their bills, for their kids. But they don't create a budget for them. And the core of everything that I do is self-love and and being in alignment with yourself so that every choice you make, every action take is based on this alignment with self-love and self-respect and self esteem. And if you're out of whack inside, you're going to make choices that are out of whack and you're going to see it reflected back to you and your environment. You're going to have a breakdown in relationship breakdown, in communication, breakdown in your money. There's going to be something that is not working. And that's how you know. But Breakdown is the predecessor to break through. So when you're able to look at that from a place of non judgment or just be aware that you're judging the crap out of it, either one works. But be curious about what's happening. Like, ha, I'm trying to do this outcome. But the key word is trying because it's not happening. I'm not having this outcome yet and I'm not being this outcome and I'm here and I want to get there. So how do I close that gap? And the gap is in baby steps. Baby steps are still steps. And there's a great quote by Luisa.   Kristina: That says a thousand mile journey begins with a single step, and so when it comes to reprogramming ourselves and looking at new belief systems and taking on a new way of being, it's a collection of small steps that we've taken.   Kristina: And a lot of times when people are addressing something large, like how they relate to money, which is a large thing, they they think, oh, if I if I change my beliefs, it's all going to work out. Right. Well, you can change how you think, but then you have to put it into action. You have to practice it. You have to fall down many times and done is better than perfect. So you you. Take on a new belief and replace a new belief, you start trying it out, testing it out and see what works and what doesn't and observe yourself. And so in talking about money, the other thing is that people can go the opposite where they charge a vast amount of money, make a lot of money, but it's not fulfilling because they're, again, not in alignment. So they're using someone else's system or they're doing it in a certain way that maybe does killing people or does do something that's just out of alignment with what's true. And so they're making a lot, but they're unhappy because that happens to people can be wildly financially successful, but their relationships are falling apart or they're they're not in a good relationship with their children or their partner or their friends. And so they're running this racket of their life that looks like they're successful, but they're not because their relationships are a shambles. So in order to be truly wealthy, you really have to have all five points. That's a really big, long answer.   Joe: No, no, it's it's great. And. I think you hit a good point, because we hear so much these days, the conversation is mindset, right? And it's mindset. It's asking the universe and letting the universe know that these are the things that you want and then stacking on top of that. Telling the universe, thank you, I'm grateful for what you did deliver, and so the more you're grateful about those things, the more those things will come your way.   Joe: So I know all of this sounds fufu, but lately I've been really trying super, super hard to change my mindset about stuff. And I've always been grateful. I've never had a problem with being grateful about stuff. I mean, you drive by a homeless person and I come home at night and go, oh, God, I get to sleep in a bed and I have a roof over my head and I can go to a refrigerator and pull out food when I'm hungry. And so all of those things go through my mind all the time.   Joe: And by no means am I in any sort of financial distress. I make a great living and I'm happy. My ultimate goal would never to even be thinking about money like I have enough of it that I just don't ever have to think about it. That is kind of like this pie in the sky for me, where not only do I have enough or I don't, but what is enough? I that's right. It's a relative term. Yeah. So I don't that's, that's not a good term but. I never want to think financial freedom. Yeah, I just never want to think about it. That would be awesome to be able to have that amount of money, to not think about it and be to help family and friends and then charities and all of those really cool things.   Kristina: So when it comes to when it comes to that kind of financial freedom, there's there's a line between. A couple of things that you mentioned, there are certain weak words that we have a vibrational words, but then there are ones like hoping, wishing and wanting. And if you're hoping for something, you're just going to get more hoping. If you're wishing for something, you're going to get more wish. If you're wanting something, you're going to get more need and wanting. So the mind set piece is absolutely there. The key is to not end up in a place of denial and to be aware of where you currently stand in your financial status. What are you doing? What are your current behaviors? Taking inventory of that. And when it comes to mindset mixed in with that. There's one phrase that totally drives me crazy. And people say all the time positive vibes only. And they say that in context to a lot of things. But it can be around money to positive vibes only. And what it does is it's a toxic positivity, as though you're not supposed to talk about at all the things that are challenging for you. The key is to absolutely talk about the things that are challenging for you and do not stay there, recognize that's where you are and that's what's happening and that's what you're doing. And that a part of you is created the reality that surrounds you without turning that into total blame and shame storm.   Kristina: And so recognizing where you're at and then being able to go. OK, so what do I need to add, remove or transform in order to get maybe what are my liabilities and what are my assets? What do I currently have outgoing and what do I have incoming. Where is their block? Is it my my management of money that it just can't I just can't hold on to it, or is it my ability to generate. Am I having a problem generating or is it not having work like am I, am I having problems working with people and I'm changing jobs all the time. Like what is it, what, what are some of the bottlenecks that are keeping me small and keeping me hold back and what am I afraid of? So if you start and that's what ontology is all about, is looking at what are the best questions to ask to move this from judgment? Because judgment is a brick wall. It's just this is the it's a right and wrong thinking, black and white thinking that keeps you stuck in an old pattern. But if you can transform that into curiosity without asking yourself the right questions, you can start to move that energy in a way that is more playful and fun, even if it's a hard topic.   Joe: We talk about mindset, but you made a really good point is that it's not just mindset, but it's action.   Kristina: You can sit here all day long and think of all unicorns and rainbows, but unless you do something and put one foot in front of the other, it's never going to never going to materialize. Right. So that's the other key point. You people sit around and think happy thoughts and. Absolutely. Yeah. What are the type of people that come to you and want to work with you?   Kristina: It tends to be creative leaders, OK? People that come to me tend to be creative leaders and creative entrepreneurs that are either running a team in their company or just background is in sales and business development. So I understand that realm and now I apply it to what's happening internally and how do we get into action, because if you really want to simplify it, the key points that I always hit on with people are what are your beliefs? What are your intentions? So what's in the past? Where do you want to go and what are the actions that we're taking to close that gap? And that's that processes with every growth mindset rather than fixed in the way of being lifelong students and learners. And they're curious on how they get to their next big leap and their next level and how they can live into their zone of genius. And so my job is that if I see people as balls of yarn and it's a matter of teasing away the yarn that is covering up the beautiful sculpture underneath, and once we can tease all of that out, now you get to operate from your truth and from who you really are and what lights you up. And it means you're going to risk you're going to risk being seen. You're going to risk showing up. And there'll be days that you have to be disciplined in the actions that you take and the movements that you make so that you can close that gap because it won't just happen to you. It's in co created relationship with you and the world around you.   Joe: So if someone was to pick. A coach, and they say that most people just think when they when someone says to them, hey, you should be you should be being coached by someone, you need a business coach. Right? You need a personal coach. You need something. How do people choose? The type of coach that they would work with, you specialize in something, the work that you do, it's just you're not a generic coach, right? So how do people understand that they need to come to you as opposed to just picking a business coach?   Kristina: Yeah, that's a great question. OK. Always when I'm trying to.   Kristina: Yes, it's a great question and it's always when I'm trying, I work with a lot of creative people that have a lot of tricks to go with the things. They're high performers. They've had successes before. So they know what that feels like. They have that historical data that we can we can push on for future endeavors and a set of tools that they've already built that I can help them apply that to other arenas. So to distinguish who I am, since a lot of people don't know what a what ontology is or what an ontological coaches' that helps you really get in on your performance. So if you know where you're going and you have a clear vision of what that is, what you're trying to identify, what the steps are to get there. I'm not. My job is to not be the expert of you. Your job is to be the expert of you. So I'm just reminding you that you're the expert of you and your life and we're just teasing it out and going, OK, what works? What doesn't, what works, what doesn't, what works, what doesn't? Where where is your zone of genius and where is it not? Where is the inspiration and where is the obligation and how do we identify the differences of those things? Because people come to me for a whole host of different reasons. Then life shows up.   Kristina: When you have a very specific coach that is niched, they don't always operate at all the speeds. So they they're very good at maybe writing a business plan or doing the business stuff. But then if you have a breakdown in your relationship, they can't they can't support you. They're wanting someone that could operate at those levels and could move with me because I move in all those different arenas because I'm a human being. Last I checked, all of those things happen at this time. So I. So when I work with someone, I work with the whole human being. And we work on their business. We work on their relationships. We work on how they're relating to their lobby, because when that is in alignment, anything is possible. The rest, you can go find someone to help you with a business coach. If you want to be more specific, if you need someone that's just working on energy work and you want to go find an energy coach or an energy intuitive, you could do that. If you need a naturopathic doctor, you go find that. So those are definitely niching into specialties, but mine is the whole human being in front of me. And how do we get you solid so that no matter what you're approaching, you have a regex into the world? That's my my every so and my Zoom genius.   Joe: You help. Anyone that is completely confused about their purpose. Does that ever come into play in what you do?   Kristina: I can support people in that, but I typically don't bring those on its clients because it's it's a long road and there are coaches that work with that. More specifically, I I want people that know their vision and know where they want to go. They're just having trouble identifying what the next steps are. That's because that's my my lane, that's my zone of genius. So I can support people with answers or questions or exploring it here and there, but I usually don't bring them on as a long term client. Perfect.   Joe: That makes sense. And that's what's cool is that you have a lane and you stay in it. And that's what makes your coaching so good, is that you're not trying to be everything to everybody.   Kristina: Right. And I think sometimes people, they think they don't know what their vision is actually. Do they just have multiple visions and they're not sure which one to focus on. So it's actually pretty rare to find people that are floundering and don't know what their vision is. Those people don't tend to gravitate to me because they're looking for an external answer of someone to fill a void in them. And I will not speak to someone smallness. I will only speak to their greatness. So if they they learn pretty quickly that if that's something that's offensive to them, they don't want to hang around me, I won't reinforce someone's smallness. That's perfect.   Joe: So there are three things that you brought up earlier. It was the financial, the time and personal right. Relationships, relationships. OK, so we talked about financial. What about time?   Kristina: So when it comes to time, people are either overly rigid or always late and then there's everything in between. But I used to very frequently fall into the always late category and and it was to keep it PG for people watching. My coach said to me, when you're always late, you're either flew to the other person or a few to yourself. And it was so shocking to my system for him to put it in that kind of. So that's how it's being, how it's showing up. I need to look at my relationship to that. And what I was doing was I was overcommitting to so many things. I was missing things all the time and or I was getting too absorbed in one thing and then being late to something as I am surrounded by a lot of people that take their time really seriously. And they're they're very integrity with their time. And if I was late to them, it was offensive. And that's understandable because now I'm on the opposite end and I could notice myself feeling that if people are late for me or they miss a scheduled time and they've blocked time on my calendar, it's super disrespectful. And when you take responsibility for your beingness in time and space and how you're showing up, it changes the game. And it's and I say that in. Whenever I say changing the game, I just what I'm really saying is it changes the full context and how you relate to the world and when you're clean in how you operate in time, you start attracting other people that are clean and how they operate in their time and their own integrity. So if they say they're going to be there, they show up and they're there. If they say they can't, then they are. If they're if they can't, they say they can't. So you start operating at a much higher vibration where people are true to their word and being whole and complete in who you're being, which is taking full accountability for your behavior and your actions.   Joe: Perfect and loved how you explain that. Perfect. So the other piece is relationship awesome. Yeah.   Kristina: Relationship in the context of the people and the things that we're committed to. So not just relationship like an intimate relationship, but it's it's really it's too thick. Two different things that people run into all the time, their relationships, their actual relationships with other people and then their commitments to different things. And all of these these four things, money, time, commitments and relationships, they all bleed into one another. And if you're out of integrity or if you're in break down in your relationships, it's likely going to affect your time and your money. If you're out of integrity and your money, it's going to affect your relationships or your other commitments. So when it comes to relationships, recognizing your impact on other people. So, for example, in a clubhouse room, if someone comes in to they come on to speak on a stage, but they're going to the moderators are going in order.   Kristina: And that person launches into say something, say, hey, can I just jump in? And they don't wait for an answer. And then they launch into a 15 minute story. It's impactful on the rest of the room. And now you're you're you're basically saying, I don't care what anyone else has to say. I only care about what I have to say and the sound of my own voice, because you didn't even wait to find out if that's OK. So noticing in your impact on other people around you is what I what I'm usually referred to when I say relationships.   Joe: Yeah, there's a lot of that going on. Yes. Yes. So is there anything that I miss that you want to talk about?   Kristina: No, I feel pretty complete. I mean, I can I can talk all day long.   Joe: So if someone would like to work with you, how what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?   Kristina: So the easiest way is probably just go to my website, Christina Crookes, dot com, and you can book a call right on there. You can book a complimentary coaching call and experience what that's like. And you can iman all the social media platforms. They can send me a message that way. So find me on Facebook and send me something through messenger. You can find me on Instagram and send me a message that way. But the easiest is to get on my calendar and we'll have a conversation and talk further about what's what's happening. OK, perfect.   Joe: I appreciate you being here with me today. And it was fun for me to learn more about what you do. And I hope that you continue to change lives with your coaching and help people get through various stages in their life. And I guess the key is to love themselves to self-love is super important. I think we're finding that more and more each day. So I appreciate your work on that. Totally. Thank you. Kristina Crooks, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I appreciate you. Glad I met you. And Clubhouse, we will continue our conversations there. It would be awesome to have another conversation, but thank you again for being on the podcast. Thank you.

A conversation with the principal of Jotham S. Stein P.C. about his recent book called "Even CEOs Get Fired". This is an easy read for any entrepreneur, C-Suite executive or investor on the tips and tricks in today's high stakes business world. It's probably safe to say that most people who want to make sure they are protected in their work environment whether you're the CEO or you work for a company, should definitely read this book! Enjoy this very educational conversation with Jotham Stein. Thank you for listening! Enjoy, Joe Jotham S. Stein Principal - Law Offices of Jotham Stein P.C. Website: https://jotham.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jothamstein/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jotham.stein LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jotham-s-stein-7b92474/ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Jotham Stein, welcome so much, I'm glad you join me on the podcast. I'm looking forward to this. I don't do a lot of things that dig deep into legal conversation. So this is going to be very educational for me and I know for my audience as well. So thank you so much for joining me.   Jotham: Thanks for having me on your show, Joe.   Joe: Yeah, absolutely, so we're going to definitely talk about your new book, which is ""Even CEOs Get Fired"", which is very interesting because I've been a CEO my whole life. So it's kind of scary to think about that I would get fired from my own company first, get a little back story about you from the interviews that I heard. I know that you and I are both New Yorkers. So I grew up a couple hours north of New York City. And you grew up on Long Island. If I if I remember correctly.   Jotham: That's true. I'm proud graduate of high school, Syosset, Long Island, New York City, Nassau County, sort of almost all the way to something closer to north and south shore, but pretty much in the middle.   Joe: And do you still get back there or you're not there, right? Do you live in California now?   Jotham: Yes, I live in Half Moon Bay, California, three blocks from the beach, so when I was growing up in high school, I used to love to go to the beach. That's where you go, you know, all the time in Jones Beach Those   Joe: Yes.   Jotham: Beaches, even Robert Moses State Park on Fire Island, you go there, too. Now, I live three blocks from the Pacific Ocean and   Joe: That's   Jotham: Happened back.   Joe: That's awesome. I saw a kiss at Jones Beach. Of all Kiss and Aerosmith all in one night.   Jotham: In one night, wow,   Joe: One.   Jotham: I think you have the theater there, like in the bay. Oh,   Joe: Yeah,   Jotham: That's cool.   Joe: And I where I went to college, I went to New York State University and pretty much the entire university was Long Island resident. So I have a bunch of friends that live out a lot. So it's near and dear to my heart. Can you give me a little back story about you, like how you decided to get into law? You know, just I like my audience to know who you are, and we just don't launch into, like, who you are. Now, it's interesting to know the person and then we get into what's going on today.   Jotham: So after high school, I went to college at Princeton in New Jersey, and I was actually interested in public policy. So one of the things people are interested in public policy do is they go to law school. So I wound up I never really been to California only one time in my life. So I was fortunate enough. I applied to California schools, got into Stanford and and went to law school at Stanford, which is right in Silicon Valley, as it turns out. So I got out of Stanford and I went to work for the big Silicon Valley law firm for two years. You know, the firm that probably I think started Apple are famous in this area. Not that I have anything to do with Apple, but but I went to work for that law firm for a couple of years and then left and traveled the world. I hitchhiked around quite a bit. I've been in quite a few countries and that I eventually hung out my own shingle in Silicon Valley and people knew that I was. I started out in litigation, meaning when people are individuals or companies to each other. But after a while, a lot of the local lawyers figured out that that I could probably write a contract to protect people as best you can from getting into lawsuits.   Jotham: So that's how it started. And eventually, I'm an entrepreneur myself, so I like meeting a lot of entrepreneurs and executives of people. So I'm a lawyer that has a lot of people as clients, real people that have different issues. And so I like meeting them at all that show. When you start doing a good job with one entrepreneur, they refer you to other entrepreneurs. Lawyers refer you to other entrepreneurs. I ran an advertisement I talk about in my book, "Even CEOs Get Fired", which is sort of named after an advertisement ran 20 odd years ago and no longer existent magazine called Red Herring, which in those days was the hot Silicon Valley magazine. And it was titled "Even CEOs Get Fired". And you would not believe who called me off this advertisement because people have all sorts of problems at employment at every level. My book is for everybody from the entry level individual to the mid-level manager to the CEO. And all those people called me off that Ed. And and one thing led to another. And here I am. Now, I, I know a lot about protecting executives, entrepreneurs, mid-level employees, starting out employees, somebody with a new business and so forth. So that's that's the background.   Joe: Perfect. And so I notice that you have not one, but three officers   Jotham: I   Joe: Said true.   Jotham: Do. That is true.   Joe: How?   Jotham: How do you get to ask me how I wind up having three offices? So.   Joe: Well, because it's like I know even when you were with David Meltzer on that interview, it's like, why? What was the first thing that came to your mind when you said, hey, I'm going to break out on my own, get out of the safety net of working at a firm? Right. You don't have to think about much of anything but what you're responsible to do. But then you break out you open up not only one office, but you have three offices. So I was looking going, OK, man, he really went for.   Jotham: So that's the story of those offices, of course, that my longtime office has always been in Silicon Valley, in Palo Alto, although these days with covid you can work anywhere, we could work anywhere anyway when you represent as entrepreneurs do not care where you are in the world, as long as you're giving them excellent advice. And many of them won't even come to visit me in my Palo Alto office because time is money. They'd rather be doing whatever they're good at with the mobile games, whether it's by a pharmacy, but it's a Wi-Fi, whether it's security, whatever they're great at, they don't want to come visit their lawyer maybe once. So I could really work anywhere. But I had an office and I now have an office in Chicago land outside the Chicago suburbs, in part because I live there. And I can say that living near Lake Michigan in that area and those lakes out there is not the same as living by the ocean. We grow up along Long Island by the ocean, and it has to smell like salt. So I now moved back to California and I have an office in New York on Long Island as well. And that's actually because you're supposed to have an office in New York if your practice law in New York, and I'm licensed in New York, in Illinois and in California, Colorado and the District of Columbia. So that's   Joe: Perfect.   Jotham: How got.   Joe: All right, well, good. Can I can I break down what your firm and what you do, like what's the specialty before we get into talking more about the book?   Jotham: Look, the thing is, it's going to really help you, you know, the CEO, but it's also a breezy read. This is easy to read in the story. In the book, about 40 percent of the book is there. Fifty nine stories there that are fictional. They're the repetitive stories of genres of stories that happen, but they're not any specific story that made them up actually to Peet's Coffee in Half Moon Bay here. I wrote the I wrote all of those there. And so you might find out, hey, that happened to me or or it happened to somebody. I know. But it's because it's a kind of repetitive story that happened. So it'll be a really easy read for you. You can read it on a plane, you can read it on a train, you can read it at your house, you can read it on the beach or wherever, or you can read it, you know, looking for very straightforward advice about how to negotiate a contract and how to protect yourself.   Joe: I think it gets confusing with people who don't understand the law and don't understand when they might need an attorney and when they don't. What would you say if you had to put down the bullet points of what your firm does? What do you specialize in? So if somebody said, hey, they hear this and then they eventually see this YouTube video, they say that's one of those is exactly what I need. And they reach out to your firm. So it'd be nice if we knew exactly what you could help a CEO with or someone who is working for a company at a high level, at sea level position, any of that.   Jotham: So the first thing I have to do is be technical here and say that in California, you can't say you specialize in something, you have to say focus on it. That's some ethical obligation. So I don't want to mess it up for anybody who's from California listening to this. So what we focus on, I guess, is I've got I've got to turn that question around on you just to say that sorry about that,   Joe: No,   Jotham: Because,   Joe: That's perfect.   Jotham: You know, every every state has their own bloody rules. And so I pay attention to them 100 percent. And so I want to make sure it's focused. So what we do is what if you want one word is we help individual, whether they're the whoever they are, to protect themselves in the employment and personal relationships. So it could be a relationship with your boss, could be a relationship with your company, could be a relationship with your investors. That's typically what we do. So and we represent actually in their individual world, we even represent investors, professional investors like private equity partners, a private equity companies. Those are the venture capital or venture capitalists. We represent venture capitalists typically in their own deals. So when they're protecting themselves, when they're doing deals with other venture capitalists, for example, so with a CEO, for example, we would give us their contracts and they say, well, we should should we sign this? And I said, well, are you protected? Are you protected in your severance? Do you have a profession, what we call a professional prenuptial agreement, which is nothing more than a severance agreement negotiated on day one. So for the executive, that may be, you know, severance and equity protection may be protection for COBRA payments down the road for an individual like an engineer just starting out if they have any leverage at all. And honestly, many don't. But if they do a one line sentence, if you fire me without cause you've asked me six months of stock and and you pay me three months of pay, for example. And so that's what we do. Those kinds of contracts can be not just employment like you're thinking about, but they could be equity contracts.   Jotham: So how not to for an entrepreneur, how not to get screwed by your own investors for yourself. It's your own company. Let's say let's just say you taken capital invested. You have an investor, right? So they invest in your company. Suddenly they have 20 percent of the company, suddenly have 30 percent of your company. How do you, Joe, as a CEO, protect yourself vis a vis those investors? Now, like I said, sometimes those investors, the professional investors come to us because they want to be protected against their own investors when they do a deal. So with their own investors. So what they are doing is becoming limited. They're becoming general partners or having some sort of arrangement. So we review contracts and give straightforward advice about how to protect yourself and honestly what the risks are if you don't, because people and businesses take risks all the time. You as a CEO have to be taking risks in your business. So you need to be fully informed about that. And so that's what we do on the individual level. We do represent companies as well. And we are some of our CEO clients have have us, for example, representing their company because they thought we did a good job for them individually. So we do a lot of that also on the separation side, too, and I've described the employment side, protecting, protecting the CEO, like your question was on the front end. But the back end is we helped negotiate separation agreements all the time so that somebody has sort of a smooth landing and can then professional reincarnate themselves.   Joe: So I used to share office space with a what are called a placement agency. They were finding jobs for people   Jotham: Brian.   Joe: And some of these jobs would be at a high level and   Jotham: Right.   Joe: Really look fairly large salaries if the negotiation of that employment is is carried through the placement agency with the people at the company that are hiring and all of that stuff gets done. How can someone fit in, someone like you or your firm in the middle of that negotiation and make sure before anything gets signed and they get employed that they've been taking care of?   Jotham: So   Joe: That's   Jotham: If   Joe: Kind of tricky, right? It's it's.   Jotham: It's very tricky because the employment agency is working for the company and the employment agency typically gets paid only when the person is place, so the employment agency has a very that's not always true. Some employment agencies get paid straight salary or commission or something. That's not per person. They're just given a job or a project. But often they only they only succeed if they place the person. All right. So if you're talking on a lower level of employee going into the company, they often don't want to take the risk of going to get a lawyer because I could create a real problem, frankly, in getting their job. If you're talking about a senior executive being placed by an agency that is there, the really best placement agencies that really care about their clients that they're placing, even though they represent the company, will say go get a lawyer, but almost all of them do not even at the highest level. So it's incumbent on the on the on the executive, whoever they are, or entrepreneur. But in this case, employment agency is going to be executive to go and to say get get their lawyer. So once they get a lawyer involved, then the employment agency sort of out on the outside and some liaison between the executive and the company and using us often as shadow counsel. So we don't even appear until the end to work on the contract. But, you know, if you're going into if you're a senior senior level person, you want to know what your downside risks are, what your recommendations are from from somebody who's seen it hundreds and hundreds of times, maybe a thousand times before. So.   Joe: For someone who's listening to this, that is at that level that hasn't thought about that, step back for a moment. Take what you've been offered. Find someone like your law firm and say, I need you to review this contract to make sure it's in my best interests so that once I sign, I'm being taken care of all in there. And I have some sort of exit strategy that makes sense. That's fair on the way out.   Jotham: Absolutely, 100 percent, I couldn't have said it better myself,   Joe: Well,   Jotham: So,   Joe: I'm learning already.   Jotham: Yeah, it's great you're learning and it's just to maximize the return, the person   Joe: Right.   Jotham: That's listening to the podcast. So they want to maximize their return. Why in the world would they sign a contract without being fully informed? And the only way to be fully informed is to come to someone like myself who's done it hundreds of times. I can tell you we've had the most shrewd executives, some that have been so successful in their lives, and they come to us after they get screwed and they say, well, what happened? And I say, well, if you talk with me before you sign the contract, either you wouldn't have negotiated this and you would have protected yourself or you would have said, you know, Jotham, thank you very much for that great advice. I'm going to take the risk. I hope I don't call you to tell me to tell me meaning, Jotham,   Joe: All   Jotham: The person   Joe: Right, I told,   Jotham: That you told me so.   Joe: Right, exactly. Let's take me, for example, as a CEO of a company and like I had mentioned, I have I have had three or four companies up till now. Do you if what I ever come to you and say, I need help protecting my personal assets, I need some way for you to look at my business and look at my personal assets to make sure that as as an LLC, which I am an LLC with an escort on the tax side in my protecting myself, is that another thing that you would help someone do or that's just different? That's a different.   Jotham: That's actually a complicated question, so I certainly read the operating agreement because many, many people start it depends on how you're asking the question of it's called context dependent. If you're asking me how can I set up a corporate formation that I'll best protect myself with trusts and estates, I'm not the person to do trust estates. Right. We send that out to lawyers we know all the time. That's a special area if you want to set up. Like I said, I trust the estate and lawyers in the legal world. They call that trust the state's law. If you come to me and say, how best can I protect myself in the corporate world by setting up an LLC, we certainly could set up an LLC have done that. We also work with other firms or give advice all the time to our entrepreneurial clients. I mean, I'm like a secretary or just just have been secretaries of companies before for our clients. But we might work with with another law firm if, for example, they had doing a sophisticated security transaction by selling stock or something. But so we could we give advice on that. And at some point we'll stop and say, no, you need somebody else.   Jotham: If you're if you're talking about how you Joe, who has an LLC, can protect yourself vis a vis other investors or vis a vis partners, you might have strategic strategic partners or even vendors or contractors. Yes, we do that all the time. Then you would come to me. So basically we have client exactly like you're describing somebody who just starts a business. There's a bit of serial entrepreneur and they get most of their advice from us and we say, no, we're not giving you advice. For example, tax law. I never give advice on tax write. I know the lawyers who give the advice, but and I recommend our clients that to that. But I have I have clients who want me to give them advice on tax law. And I'm like, absolutely not. Let me let me let me tell you where to go. And, you know, most most people who are in business and and are will say, OK, well, my lawyer's telling me he's not the right person. We find them the right person. That's just an example. So your question sort of involved a number of possibilities. And   Joe: Sure.   Jotham: Without knowing the facts, I can't really answer 100 percent, but.   Joe: Yeah, and I'm just trying to drive to the fact that if I was listening, like I listen to a podcast of the chat and things will pop out during an episode where I'll say, oh, that is something I've been thinking about or something I to get an answer for. So I'm trying to make sure that everyone knows who's listening to this and eventually will watch it, know the things that you can do for them in case something pops up. I'm trying to ask the questions that if I was listening to this, I wonder if he can do this for me. It's that kind of thing. I'm just trying to make sure that if there's something you can do, I want people to know you can do it for them.   Jotham: Oh, yeah, I mean, you want to start a business, we knew that you want to get investment, we protect you, you want to do employment, work on any level, we could help you protect yourself. You got a strange sort of possibility for your next job, for your next business deal. You come to us, we give you straightforward advice, and that's really the key. And we give great business advice as well as great legal advice. And you'll see if when you read the book, "Even CEOs Get Fired" half of our work. Is that so? In other words, since we've seen so many different possibilities, people in the gym don't not going to see that the hair on my head on your YouTube channel. But but I've seen all these all so many different possibilities that go right in that go wrong. And sometimes they go right. The person's thirty third business, they say, oh, business one, that business do they reincarnate and they and they maximize their returns and they make it on the third go. But we have lots of people sitting there doing that on the bikes or in the gym and maybe on the rowing machine.   Jotham: A row or so do rowing machines, you know, just because it's they've succeeded twice before and they're going to their third job doesn't mean that they don't have tremendous pitfalls in their deal, whether it's their equity deal or whether it's their employment deal, whatever the deal is, whether it's a deal to to have your perks, for example, cars, for example, to drive around, it doesn't mean that because you've been OK the first two times, there isn't some gigantic problem that might rear its ugly head the third time around. So if you're going in as an entrepreneur to a company or starting a company or as your executive or anybody with leverage in employment, it's always a question. Do you spend money on a lawyer? But if you want to protect yourself or want to see what your downside risks are, want to be fully informed. I want to have either the opportunity to maximise your personal returns, whatever they are, or know that you're taking risks in that attempt to maximize them. You would come to me or my law firm or or a lawyer who does similar type work wherever that person lives.   Joe: Great. OK, so to lighten things up a little bit,   Jotham: Ok, it's.   Joe: So I thought about this when I heard you talk about there's fifty nine fictional stories there, actually there are real circumstances, but you've you've obviously protected the people by not naming names and naming companies or whatever. Right. So is that what you mean by those fifty nine. These are actual things that occurred, but you just created them to not name companies or names or anything specific.   Jotham: More like they're not they're not individual to any individual story, I've had it just happen so many times over and over again. And so it's like, OK, I get something that happens. An entrepreneur walks in and I'm like, OK, this is like 16 other times it's happened. It's new to the entrepreneur, but to me it's happened a lot of times before. So that's what I mean by it's fictional, but it's based on my experience. So I literally wrote them at a Peet's Coffee. Right. And so, I mean, let me take one, for example.   Joe: I was going to ask I said I was going to put you on the spot, say I love story, so I need you to tell us why.   Jotham: Ok, so there's one in my book, I actually spoke just briefly about it with David Meltzer. It's one I like. OK, here's a perfect example. There's a very successful woman as a number two at the company. Essentially, she is also a biathlete. So I like athletics. I never did biathlon, but it's people who do cross-country skiing and shoot at targets. Right. OK, she's very successful. She has a doctor. She is a doctor. But like some doctors that you never think about, they go into business. Right? All these biopharma companies, a lot of these are ends. They never actually practiced. But I got clients who I have clients who are MDs at practice and those that never practice. They get their degree and they go right into business. So this this character goes into business. And her CEO, she's doing really well after four years of this company and her CEO gets changed out the prior CEOs to lead. This happens all the time. New CEO comes in and this character is as good, as honest as the day is long. And the new CEO wants a yes person.   Jotham: So, you know, yes man, a yes woman. And she is not a woman at all. And so he decides he's going to push her out. OK, this happens all the time. So he makes her life miserable. But being a biathlete who's well trained, she's she's able to stays there and continues to work like we see so many of our executives and entrepreneurs, they think because they work harder and they do a better job, that the board and the CEO are going to somehow like them more. And that's not the way it works. If somebody who wants a yes person wants to get rid of you so or in a different world, very similar corollary genre. A new CEO comes in, wants to bring in their old team. They're going to fire people below them. And the literature is actually you should do it within 60 or 90 days. So it doesn't matter how good those people are. Anyway, she's a straight shooter. That's what I say in the story, right? She's a straight shooter at two hundred yard   Joe: Right.   Jotham: Shooting a rifle and she's a straight shooter. The CEO and the CEO finally can't take it anymore. And he fires her. He gets the board to approve the board votes. Five, nothing to fire after nine months. Maybe it's maybe I don't even my story. Right. Maybe it's ten months. Maybe it's seven months. But it's something like that.   Joe: Ok.   Jotham: This happens all the time. I've never had a biathlete as a client. I've always admired biathletes when I watch them on TV. I did spend time in Lake Placid while I was doing Lugt, a different sport   Joe: Oh, nice.   Jotham: So I could talk about that anyway. So what's the story? So this thing's all made up, but what happens after she's now out? She gets a severance agreement, she leaves, she's at the firing range, practicing at two hundred yards and she gets a text. Who's getting a text from she's getting a text from the investor of that company who sat on the board who voted to fire her was five nothing, remember? OK, the investor says, as so often happens in Silicon Valley entrepreneurial world, the investor says essentially this is all by text now. So I'm paraphrasing my own writing. So now north of our paraphrasing what I wrote and the investor says, well, why don't you look at two of my other portfolio companies? And she text back the character, text back to the investor and says, well, I don't understand. I got a great severance agreement. You fired me. Vote was five nothing. Why are you contacting me? And he says, well, it didn't work out so well at the other company, but one of my portfolio companies here might be a better fit. OK, that's a story that's happened multiple times in Silicon Valley, multiple times in the entrepreneurial world. I have no, that's what I mean. I created them. That's a genre of a story. So I could have a client come in today after our podcast, they could tell me a similar story and I'd say, don't burn the bridges with those people sitting on the board that you all those board members almost always invest in startup, not always, but almost always back the CEO until the day they fire the CEO. But you've just been fired. You're the EVP or the SVP or the VP, whoever you are, that board member sitting there who's a shrewd investor, the only thing they care about really is all of their other portfolio companies they're taking care of. Right. And so they may call you to offer you a job. So you don't know that. So what in this story comes in in a part of the book, which I guess I should show again,   Joe: Absolutely.   Jotham: "Even CEOs Get Fired". There's a chapter on professional reincarnation. So and this happens all the time to somebody just like this character gets fired. And so they reincarnate themselves in the next job. That's a very, very, very common circumstance. I often have clients. It's a terrible separation. They're having like this particular executive I described in my story, nine months of being beaten. I mean, it's a miserable place to work. But a lot of these a lot of these people soldier on. They've always been they think that they work harder. It's going to get better and often it doesn't. And but I often tell people six months later, you're going to call me and tell me it's the best thing that ever happened to you got fired.   Joe: All   Jotham: And   Joe: Right.   Jotham: Many of them, if they have protection, you know, they. They call me six months later, they say, hey, it's the best thing that ever happened to me, I got fired to have a better job. I have a better life at home. Whatever it is, I'm doing sports more often. I'm getting paid more. I get better equity, whatever.   Joe: Right, so there was two takeaways from that story for me. One was that potentially that smart woman had you look at their contract. And so when they did finally get removed from the CEO position, they walked away with a nice severance package. It didn't have to fight to get anything. And the second thing that you mentioned was that they left in good terms, at least with the board, which showed that they could then potentially get more opportunities down the road by not having this giant blow off at the end of it.   Jotham: So the I should say with what you just said, the second one is absolutely true and there's a part in my story where I talk about burning bridges and you should and I say, listen, sometimes it's the best thing personally, mentally to burn the bridge, to strike back. OK,   Joe: Right.   Jotham: I got that. But I what I talk about in the book and what I try to tell all my clients and the people on the podcast that are listening to everything in business coldly and calculatingly, if you're going to lose your crap in somebody and you're going to start yelling at them because they fire you and you're never going to talk to them again, that's fine. And but what I say is do it coldly and calculatingly, at least understand what you're doing. So in this in this case, and what I often talk about in the book is the character did not burn their bridges. It's true. They left the first part of your what you took away was that they had come to us for a employment agreement. Actually, in this case, two things. One is they got a great separation agreement even with the person who didn't like them and forced them out. They got a good separation agreement. So they negotiated that on the back end. And the other thing I should say is, as I say in the book, I am not into stories. It's modeled after the advice I would give. But I'm not in the story because the story is totally fictional. But it's as important to get a good separation agreement and be professional on the back end as it is to get an employment agreement on the front end.   Joe: So this has been bothering me, like, why did you stop? Fifty nine and I go to sixth. Why did you go past fifty five to fifty nine?   Jotham: The truthful answer is I didn't count them up until the end, so I didn't know how many I wrote,   Joe: Ok.   Jotham: But there is there is a story there's two stories in my acknowledgments, one with a colleague who's worked with my law firm a long time. I thank her for reading many versions of the book. And I tell a story there. And once for the four people I dedicated the book to, I tell the last story in the book and that actually involves for four Long Island guy going to the beach, Jones Beach. And so it could be 60 one by.   Joe: Perfect. OK, I just it was something that I wanted to ask,   Jotham: The.   Joe: So just so with the way the world has changed it actually let me let me back up in the dotcom era. Right. But like when everything was all about equity, how   Jotham: Right.   Joe: Much has that changed now? Because I remember when that was going on, like, I literally this is going to be funny. You're going to. But when I was working for a software company before I opened my first company and I was working in New York, we were actually teaching corporations how to use a Web browser. I was literally at the beginning of the Internet. So I remember just companies starting and going come in and work with us. The pay is going to be low to nothing, but we're going to give you equity in the company. And it was just all over the place. Every company was giving shares away. Right. That's the that was that whole era of the dotcom portion of the world. How has that changed now?   Jotham: It's exactly back to the way it was   Joe: Really?   Jotham: And absolutely there are hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people running around in Silicon Valley and elsewhere. Remember, I've license a license to practice multiple states. So we have clients all over the country. They want equity. It's all about an equity play. Now, having said that, there are many, many companies who don't really give equity to anybody but their senior officers. And there's many places in our country, in America, where you only get a salary. And there are many, many kinds of many salespeople who care about equity, but mostly what they want is commissions. And, for example, an uncapped commission plan would be there, their their golden golden goose. They don't want to have equity. But if you're talking about the old dotcom days, because I was there then, too. And now if there are many people whose deals is all about an equity play, they get less pay than they could on the market for whatever they're doing. They take the risks and and often, especially for those starting out, coming out of college, they may go to two or three startups which will fail. And then the fourth or fifth one is the one that gives them, you know, a tremendous upside so they can go buy their next their house or whether the house, multiple houses, whatever it is. So it's really the same as it was when you were doing that in the dotcom era.   Joe: Was was there a lull at one point after the dotcom where everyone felt so burned about equity and all of that, that for a while it wasn't even on the table or.   Jotham: I think there was a guy there was like it never went away for everybody, but yes, there was definitely a period of time when I remember the stock market was in, that was way down and there weren't so many IPOs and people wanted that was all about salary even before the start ups or upside bonus upsides. If you did a good job after a year, even though you got a lower salary. And so it did it did desire for equity and equity plays slackened? I would absolutely say that there was like a trough like this, but now it's back to the way it was in my view. And it's that way not just for the entry level person coming out of college, wants to get some equity in the company and not just for the mid-level individual who's moving from one company to another, but also all the way up to the CEOs who want more equity and and give up salary or bonuses. Now, at the largest companies that you hear about the fortune, one hundred companies, those executives are getting equity and very high. So and bonuses and what's called long term incentive plans. So it depends on where you're what you're talking about, what company context you're talking about, what region of the country. But in terms of the startups of the world, the smaller companies in the world, the equity play for everybody from from the person who takes out the garbage all the way to the CEO, it's it's it's the way it was.   Joe: That's incredible, and you would see a lot of that where you are in Palo Alto, where you're know Silicon Valley right here.   Jotham: All the time,   Joe: All   Jotham: And when   Joe: The   Jotham: You   Joe: Time.   Jotham: Think all the time and when you talk about that, if you're getting stock in a company and it means a lot to you, you better figure out or you should figure out how to protect yourself with that stock. So, for example, many times companies give out shares over four years, let's say, or five years, they vest over time. And in the first year they have what's called a cliff. So you got no stock, you don't get any stock, you know, right. To stock until the end of a year. What happens if you're fired at 11 months and 30 days just before the year the contract says you get nothing. So do you want to protect yourself against that possibility? Because that happens a lot. Right.   Joe: That's crazy. Wow. All right, so I grew up in a large Italian family that owned a restaurant business   Jotham: Ok.   Joe: And I literally I partnerships for me make me cringe. Just just the word makes me cringe.   Jotham: Right.   Joe: And and I saw my own internal family fight and I saw my my father, who has since passed by his brother, is still living. But I saw that literally just separate and not talk to each other for years and the rest of the family hating each other. So that's just the lead in to the question of partnerships. Is there a part in the book? Again, the book is "Even CEOs Get Fired". Is there a part in that book that talks about partnerships and talks about what to look for, red flags, things that that seem to always go wrong in partnerships, any of that sort of advice?   Jotham: So there is a little bit, but it does not heavily focused on partnerships because but but the teachings in the book on how to protect yourself, maximize your returns, put everything in a clear contract. That's very clear. There's two sort of parts of the Italian family having the restaurant business and then a fight among family members. OK, and and that is discussed in the book in a different way, which is, you know, make sure, you know, you're going into business with. But part of the problem is I can't protect you from a fight among man family members who are fighting for many other reasons and historical reasons. Right. I mean, they just weren't family members in the business. They had had a family history. Right. They grew up together. They had uncles and aunts and grandparents. And so that's that's a personal sort of a personal concern. Those people that's that that a lawyer can help you with, although we turn out being a psychologist all the time. So we might have been able to help. For example, somebody comes to us and this happens all the time to partners in fighting and we say, well, why are you fighting? You know, maybe it's better you break up. And before you have a fight about this, do you really want to sue each other? Because you wouldn't believe some of the lawsuits that are fought between family members of former friends. It's terrible.   Joe: Well, yeah, and I was going to say this was a push out, my father got pushed out, so this was a thing where he worked there all the help build this business his entire life. And in the end, this could happen and he got pushed out.   Jotham: So the worst part of those kinds of push ups that happens, and I'll tell you another one of my stories that repeats itself all the time, the worst problem of those stories that I hear about you're telling me about is the personal the personal suffering. Right, with getting getting kicked out of your own family business, getting stabbed in the back by your own brother or uncle. That worst part of that isn't the financial loss, although that can be terrible. The worst part is the personal loss and the personal relationships that are lost and the suffering that happens on a personal level, that sometimes people need psychologists for that to help them there rather than a lawyer. The second part of that is the financial potential loss that we could have helped to protect himself. Because if you have a contract and we've had some of these where nobody can fire the other person, contractually, you can't fire them. So they have to do a deal. Or in a typical family situation, somebody passes, you have a buy sell agreement. But imagine having a contract that we've had these with really sophisticated investors. So imagine like your manager, whoever pushed out your dad, not having the legal right to do that contract says the business is 50 50. And one or even the contract could say uncle gets 70 percent of the business. I get 30 percent of the business. But you can't fire me and you've got to keep paying me or well, if you fire me, at least you got to you've got to continue to pay me my exact same salary with a cola cost of living increase. You know, there are ways to help to make sure that it's negotiated out as opposed to a coup. Now, the story. You want to hear this story from the book.   Joe: A   Jotham: That's   Joe: Totally.   Jotham: All right there. The repetitive story that happens a lot. And again, the worst is just like your dad. The worst is the personal cost is the person who gets the entrepreneur who gets stabbed in the back and is forced out of their own business. The palace coup, the leader or not necessarily always the leader, but the person who following along, enjoying in that palace coup is a person who stood up at their wedding. And the wrongdoer is the person who stood up in the wedding. And so when the client comes to me with the story and it's happened many times, multiple times over the years, and the worst thing you feel both terrible about is the client here is now telling this story. They made a lifetime of decisions to have the wrongdoer stand up at their wedding and they believe that that person was their loyal friend. And the destruction of that friendship and and the and the new clients recognition that they got it wrong on a personal level, that's even worse than the the financial costs and the financial cost can be great. Being stabbed in the back by the person who stood up at your wedding stories only happened when money becomes involved. And the startup world, that's usually when equity suddenly becomes it goes from a penny a share and suddenly it's worth fifty dollars a share, twenty dollars a share. And by the way, unfortunately, I have to report that the wrongdoer can be a bridesmaid just as much as it can be a groomsman.   Joe: Wow. OK, so here's the question I have based on the circumstance we just talked about with my father having that business and it goes for any any business. If you start to think something's going bad, is it too late then to try to figure out a way to protect yourself?   Jotham: Maybe, but the first thing you should do if you get if you get concerned that something is going wrong is not wait around, it's go find a lawyer who knows what to do and might be able to help you. So this is something I do talk about in the book. If you get a lawyer while the things are going wrong and he or she acts as your shadow counsel, they can often help you, first of all, react in an appropriate way, in a way that protects yourself, maximize your protection while things are going downhill. But for example, in the email wars that might happen where somebody else is trying to paper file and and, you know, something's wrong, but you don't know what they're doing, you can paper that file to protect yourself. And so that's really important since actually what you just described. I've had that on my website. My my professional website, which is not the book's website, is "Even CEOs Get Fired" dotcom. So   Joe: Perfect.   Jotham: If you want to learn   Joe: I was   Jotham: More   Joe: Hoping   Jotham: About   Joe: You   Jotham: It.   Joe: Would say that.   Jotham: Yeah. Even see, it's one word, "Even CEOs Get Fired" dotcom.   Joe: Our.   Jotham: But even before that, I had a professional website being a Silicon Valley very early on and it talked about exactly what you just described as something you feel something's going wrong in business, in your job, in a relationship with an investor, whatever it is, call an experienced lawyer, not necessarily the your friend, the lawyer, not necessarily the person who did your your will or your trust, somebody who does entrepreneurial and executive law. And they've seen it before. And they can give you really good advice and you can really keep yourself from being really financially harmed if you do that.   Joe: And when something like that happens, like my my brain initially went to, OK, if I felt something was going wrong and I was in a partnership or some sort of partnership, but any circumstance where there are other people involved, because I'm lucky in my case, it's just. I don't have to deal with anything. But if I was in that circumstance, do you have to get the other party to sign? Like, if I came to you and said, listen, something's going wrong, I need to start protecting myself. We need to write up some documents. Are they not official until the other party has seen them or sign the.   Jotham: Now, you've asked me a complex question,   Joe: Good. Now, here we go.   Jotham: You could have an oral contract, right? Many   Joe: Ok.   Jotham: People have law contracts. You could have an oral contract evidence by a course of business doing business. So I really have to know more. That's something the first thing we ever do when somebody comes with a sort of a fact pattern, you just ask me is we want a full chronology of events. So if you come to a lawyer who's seen a lot of it before, they'll be able to figure out where you might have protection because you have an oral contract, for example, as one example, because the other side has it doesn't have anything in writing, even though they're trying to force you out. But I don't want to go back, if I can, to your father getting pushed out,   Joe: Mm   Jotham: If that's   Joe: Hmm.   Jotham: All right. Like,   Joe: Yeah.   Jotham: I don't know what happened. I never heard about it. So you just told me. Tell me now. But it's likely that your father groused a lot and was worried about it with his own family and didn't do what I just described, which is go find a lawyer who's shrewd and maybe unable, able to help him protect himself from the Paluska that that happened. And so it happens even in a small family business, you know, and now it's I'm going to a lawyer. You go to a lawyer and and you and you tell them the fact pattern. If they're good, they'll give you advice. And some of the advice might be, don't tell me I'm have a lawyer. Right. Just go along. You know when to disclose. You have a lawyer is it's a business decision and you want to maximize your return when you do that. So now that I went back to your father, I might have forgot what you just asked me. So   Joe: No,   Jotham: I have a question.   Joe: No, that's OK, I just I didn't you you alluded to the fact that it could be an oral contract. I didn't even know there was such a thing. I thought that in the eyes of the law, everything had to be written and signed. So I don't know what you mean by an oral agreement.   Jotham: So so OK, because you have listeners, I assume, across the country, I have to say, I'm not giving specific legal advice just so they understand   Joe: Yep.   Jotham: In every jurisdiction is different. And if you happen to live in Alaska or Louisiana, particularly Louisiana, it's really different. So, you know, if you're in North Dakota listening to this or you're in Illinois or wherever you're listening, you have to go see somebody in your own. And wherever you are, your own fancy word is jurisdiction, state, whatever. But in most places, they're an oral contract is equally as enforceable as a written contract. If two people come to a meeting of the minds literally about a contract and there's consideration and it's oral, depending on what the form of the contract is, you can have an enforceable contract. Now, they're in every state. There are certain contracts that can't be formed orally. A classic example in many places is you can't have a contract for land that's oral, but in most other places in all contract is enforceable. Is a written contract actually now a written contract is easier to sort of prove in some ways because you have it in writing. And if you ever have to go to a judge or a jury, you put that thing up on the screen and it says, look, you signed it and there it is.   Joe: Right.   Jotham: But it's equally enforceable, dependent, you know, there are always limitations on oral contracts that every state might be a little different, but absolutely. And so then there are other fancy things in the law, oral contract evidence by writing. So, you know, if you can prove it, you have an oral contract and you sent an email and that's your writing. So that might be a little different. An oral contract evidenced by a course of dealing. We always did this for the last 10 years. So that shows that we had an oral contract to always do this in the future. That's a possibility, too. So now I recommend in the in my book, even the CEOs get fired. You sign clear written agreements because that reduces your chances of getting into a fight. Right. If it's in writing and it's clear, even if the other side's a wrongdoer, you know, it's clear they're realize they're going to try to work around the clear language and and or what happens off to the business. If you have a really clear contract and they don't want you, they buy you out. The classic example being a separation agreement, they fire you, but they give you a good, good exit package.   Joe: So I had no idea so that it's a huge light bulb went off that I thought if it wasn't written and it wasn't signed, if both parties didn't sign it. Both attorneys didn't review it. It doesn't if it's not done in writing and signed, it doesn't exist. So this is.   Jotham: If you've had a meeting of the minds so so typically the kind of contract you're talking about in writing where it goes back and forth, back and forth to the lawyers and everybody, there is no meeting of the minds until the contract is signed. But, you know, now you're going to think about this. Well, have I ever had an oral contract with somebody else who might have something against me? So but yeah, sure, it could happen. So perfect. I'll give you an example. In your business, you're a CEO of your own companies. Imagine you. I don't know you. You met a successful person and you said, hey, I'll give you twenty five percent of my business if if you tell me how to increase my market share, using that as an example by by one hundred and fifty percent in the next two months. And that person then connects you that connect you with, I don't know, the great guru of market share. And suddenly in a month you've you've increased your market share by one and a half times. You might owe them 20 percent of your business as an example,   Joe: Yeah.   Jotham: Keep you from going out, making those promises.   Joe: Plower.   Jotham: So think of it this way. If you make an oral promise, you promise somebody something and they're giving you something back. I'm not talking about, you know, a family member or something, although it could be a family member. Lots of crazy disputes that way. But you promise somebody something in business and it's something to do with your business. And you say, for example, I'll give you twenty percent of my business if you do X, Y and Z. And the other person says, I agree, if I do it in the next two months, you might have an oral contract depending on what state you're in and depending on what it is you promised. Again, if you promise to to sell your property, not likely in most states, but   Joe: Right.   Jotham: If you're selling your securities 20 percent of your LLC, you might.   Joe: It's crazy, I literally it's an eye opener for me. I had no idea. So I'm glad we talked about OK, real quick, because I know I have to let you go. I wanted to ask how covid has has either as it happened with all the things that were going on and what you expect to happen once we reopen up, because, you know, there are these circumstances where people are furloughed. But what does that even mean? Like some of these people are furloughed. They're not getting paid. They have no insurance. It's just like, yeah, we might bring you back. I don't know. Legally, it doesn't seem to mean anything. What happens with people that are taking home equipment from the companies to use it to work from home? The the security of that data, it's no longer within the premises of the company, through their secured network. I mean, all of these crazy things that are going to going to open up as time goes on is is are you starting to see some of those effects or work on those types of cases or any of that sort of stuff?   Jotham: Sure, I mean, your question, we could spend another hour   Joe: I know, I know.   Jotham: Because it involved so many different things, right? I.P individuals coming back from furlough and so forth. So just as a general matter, covid obviously a lot of people working at home. And so there all those things that you just talked about are we get calls about both from the individual side and from the company side as well, because the IP sitting at home or on somebody's computer and not in the location because they're working at home, all of these things are really critical and they've happened since covid shutdown. And now what I think about coming back is some of those businesses wanting everybody back and people don't want to come back yet. So that's a big problem. On the other hand, some of the business want to keep people at home. They're like, OK, it worked really well, let's keep it at home. They don't need to be in an office lower overhead. And actually, sometimes they realize there's more efficiency at work because there aren't anybody to talk to when you're at the house. So it goes both ways. And then there are issues about how to come back from covid and what to do. So we've literally had calls and given advice on many of the things that you just discussed. And they're completely different, right? They're just issues that came up that nobody ever thought about before. I mean, they always thought about what they thought about them, but it didn't happen. Didn't happen. Like a whole country got stuck at home. And now there are all these issues. So happy to talk to you, Morna, in another podcast and we're coming to the end about it. But   Joe: Yeah.   Jotham: You just raise like so many issues. And one question.   Joe: Yeah, I know it's a it's and I was just and for the listeners, it means intellectual property says I want to make sure they understand what we're talking about, what we're talking about that. But, yeah, I'm sure it could be an hour long. Just talking about it real quick for any new laws created because of covid-19 and all of that. Have you dealt with new laws?   Jotham: Oh, yeah, there's a huge number, I mean, for example, the stimulus package that happened because of new laws, right? So there are other other laws associated with that. There's been a whole bunch. The legislatures, you know, have done done various things, but there's been three stimulus packages. That's just a one example.   Joe: Yeah, yeah, OK, perfect. Can you do me a favor and show the book again, "Even CEOs Get Fired".   Jotham: Even   Joe: It's a.   Jotham: Ceos get fired, you can get it on Amazon, so if you if you type in, "Even CEOs Get Fired", separate words like you're targeting in the words of a book, then you can get, you know, come up on Amazon right away. If you type in my name in the book, you know, do a Google search, it'll come up. The website is "Even CEOs Get Fired" dotcom. But it's one word. You have to type it all together. There's no spaces. So, yeah, like I said, I it's a really breezy read, so I recommend it to you whether you're at the beach, whether you're whether you're in the gym, like doing a bike and you want to, you know, wanted something to read while you're or something. And one of the other things at the gym or   Joe: Hmm.   Jotham: Whether you're on holiday, it will not bother you at all. Like those 59 stories. If you add the two at the end 60, what I think you really enjoy the read.   Joe: Perfect, Jotham, I really appreciate you coming on. It was a pleasure to meet you. It was a pleasure to talk about this is a subject that I have very little knowledge of. And every time I get to meet someone like you and talk about something this in depth, it makes me feel like a better CEO, even though I probably should know more about this than I do. But I appreciate it very much. I wish you all the success with the book. I really look forward to reading it.   Jotham: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on your show, Joe.   Joe: You're welcome. Thank you.

It was a pleasure to sit down with Marty Ray from The Marty Ray Project. He shared a wealth of knowledge on how he used social media to go viral with his videos and how he continues to put in the time and effort to share his talents. You will also learn how authentic, transparent and caring he is and the love he has for his family, friends and fans. This was a blast for me and I hope you enjoy it as well. As always, that you for listening: Enjoy! Joe Marty Ray -  The Marty Ray Project The Marty Ray Project: Chats Connect with Marty on all social media platforms: @martyrayproject Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript   Joe: All right, I want to welcome my friend Marty Ray of the Marty Ray project, and he is a Nashville country artist. And I get to pick his brain not only on his entertainment and musical artistry, but I get to pick his brain about his own podcast and I get to pick his brain, even more importantly, to some of the audience members about his marketing skills because he has amassed a huge following. So, Marty, welcome. Man, I'm so glad you could do this.   Marty Ray: And I'm honored that you would have me on your show, brother.   Joe: Now, this is exciting, man, so   Marty Ray: Don't take my brain. Don't pick my brain to order. You might get down.   Joe: So I want to do a little I want to start with sort of the back story, if you can give us just, you know, how you got started. Was it the music part first? You know, whatever. You can just give us the whole thing. And then from there, I'm going to I'm going to dig in on some of these subjects so that we can really bring some some real knowledge to the audience when when they get to listen to this.   Marty Ray: Well, I always tell people I came out of the womb singing and that's the truth, I just know just always could do it if if I can do it now, I could always do it. I never learned how I mean,   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: So I don't even know if I do it right. But it seems like a lot of people seem to like it. So that's good. It's good for me and they say it's good for them. So it makes me happy. As far as what came first podcast or music, you could say music came first. I started writing songs when I was 12, but as far as professionally. I did. I had a podcast back in like two thousand seven hundred three either.   Joe: Yeah, no worries,   Marty Ray: But that cut off didn't   Joe: Just   Marty Ray: Just   Joe: Just   Marty Ray: Cut   Joe: For a second,   Marty Ray: You off.   Joe: Yeah, just for a second, it's all good.   Marty Ray: The alarms man. Those alarms, I wish you could put the phone in airplane mode while you're doing things like this, but I don't think that works like it shuts the Internet off. But anyway, so I actually was doing a podcast in 2007 when nobody knew what podcasts were. They got no respect. It was so hard to get actual guests to come on the show back then because. If it wasn't radio, they didn't want no part of it. So I actually named my podcast back then, Memcache Radio, so it would fool them into thinking it was your radio station.   Joe: Wow.   Marty Ray: And I was I was actually successful at getting some pretty high. How to, you know, high falutin client client clients and our clients have fluting guest on. I got a very Rucker. He was one of the moment   Joe: Wow.   Marty Ray: And I was at that time, I had no fans, don't know nobody. He just he was on there, gave us some of the greatest, greatest advice I've ever gotten at the end of that podcast. And I said, what advice would you give? An artist trying to be where you're at and apply this to everything in my life and I think everybody else should do, you should just play. Don't just look at every opportunity as if it's. So it could be something big. It could be something that could change your life, you could change your career. And so that's what I do. I look at every situation and I go, even though they might be this person, that person, they might not be big yet or but who knows what tomorrow holds, you know? And I think that's how we're supposed to live, especially like me, because I'm a Christian. So I live, breathe, breathing for others. That's that's my goal in life. I try my best to not be selfish and I try to breathe for people that that are all around me, you know, like like you, Joe, I'm trying to breathe for you. So instead of because that's what Jesus told us to do. So that's kind of where my life started with a podcast and. I ended up doing a video to learn how to make music videos, so I did a music video, went and rented a camera, and the camera was a black magic cinema camera. They just they just released these cameras. And I wanted to learn how to do a professional style music video. So I wrote disparity to all about that bass, and it was all about that beard. Believe it or not, I don't know. I don't know where that came from. That's weird.   Joe: You're right.   Marty Ray: Yeah. I'm still trying to remember how I came up with the beard thing, but we'll figure it out someday.   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: I don't   Joe: Exactly.   Marty Ray: Know why the beard came and now the. So then I did this video had no clue really what I was doing too much. And you could tell in the video. But I posted that video and it got two million views overnight and.   Joe: Wow.   Marty Ray: I was like, man, I got to really be consistent now because I told, you know, for years I kept saying I thought I could sing, but I was mimicking other artists. And I would I would try my best to sound just like them boys demand. Because you said a country singer. I'm really not a country singer. I know I look country, but I don't really do a whole lot of country anymore. I used to for my first album, I only did country because people told me that's what I better do because I look like a country   Joe: Mm   Marty Ray: Artist.   Joe: Hmm.   Marty Ray: So I said I will call it country. But when the blues radio stations said my album was to country and the country radio station said it was too bluesy, then I wrote a song for my next album called Too Bluesy for Country to Country for Blues. And then I just said, forget it. I'm going to do what I want to do and I'm going to release everything on the album at one time. And that's what I've been doing ever since. So I got on my last album, Mixed Emotions. I got EDM songs on there like like club club music.   Joe: Oh, wow. So it   Marty Ray: I   Joe: Must be   Marty Ray: Can see,   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: You know.   Joe: Yeah, it must be just the first couple of videos that I clicked on, I just happened to click in the wrong spot or just, you know, I just.   Marty Ray: Well, you probably think, you know, I understand how mad nobody you probably clicked on a couple of songs and thought, here you see the acoustic guitar, you see a big bearded cornbread fed fellow from the south, and you go, this must be country because you might not listen to country. Right. So a lot of these people, they don't listen to country music, but they see somebody like me and they go, I guess this is country. I kind of like this man. I know. I like country. I get that a lot. I get that comment a lot, though. So I didn't know. I like country and I'm like, you still don't know if you like country, to be honest, because this ain't really country. I got nothing against country. Right. When I was growing up, I hated country when I was a boy because my parents love country. So I listen to RB and I grew up listening to the gospel like Shirley Caesar, Mahalia Jackson, Rance Allen, people like that. And then that turned into listening to RB. Still isn't the gospel today though, RB? Then it got into soul music and I got into blues music, and then at 12 years old, my mama took me to a Garth Brooks concert and I saw him live at the Pyramid Memphis, Tennessee. And I said, maybe I should give this a look. And I did. And I gave it a look. And I liked what I see, what I found. And he was because that was the that was the first time that I heard music. That was it was really telling stories like actually telling. If you listen to thunder rolls. Have you ever heard Garth Brooks?   Joe: Yeah, but I don't know well enough if you mentioned a song, I'd be like, I don't.   Marty Ray: Have you what would you listen to, what's your genre?   Joe: I listen to everything I you know, because I own a booking agency in Phoenix here, so I have to book everything across the board, so I listen to everything.   Marty Ray: Listen to everything but Garth Brooks, I got it.   Joe: No, no, no, I just want no one saw you named. I think he's amazing. I think if that's your first exposure to country music, that was a hell of a way to see it, because he's I mean, everyone   Marty Ray: It wasn't   Joe: Loves   Marty Ray: My first   Joe: Him.   Marty Ray: Exposure. It was the first time because, like I said, my parents, all my mom and my dad, but my mom, my dad was born to like Chicago and stuff, which I actually   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: Love that   Joe: I   Marty Ray: Back   Joe: Love   Marty Ray: In   Joe: That.   Marty Ray: The day. I still love Chicago. My daughter, who was 15, is a massive Chicago fan of your favorite band. Believe   Joe: That's   Marty Ray: It or not.   Joe: Crazy. That's amazing.   Marty Ray: And I actually did a show with Bill Champlin, who   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: Was a member of Chicago, and he's the one that wrote Hofmeyr saying, I'm sorry, I just want to stay. I'm a right directly to you. That's weird. And   Joe: No,   Marty Ray: That feel weird,   Joe: No, not at all.   Marty Ray: Even though even though when you look, I hope this power doesn't go out from his eyes. You see that. You see his lights blinking.   Joe: Oh.   Marty Ray: Anyway, I'll try to sum the story up. This has been going on for too. I'm a long winded. I'm like I'm like, oh, Pentecostal preacher. You get your rain, you got to start   Joe: Yes,   Marty Ray: Yawning or something. You   Joe: It's   Marty Ray: Got start   Joe: All   Marty Ray: Yawning   Joe: Good.   Marty Ray: And let me know. It's like I if I don't hear any Armand's,   Joe: No,   Marty Ray: I might   Joe: This   Marty Ray: Go   Joe: Is   Marty Ray: On forever.   Joe: This is perfect. That's what I like, real people, real conversation.   Marty Ray: That's all I know how to do, I call myself a conversations, I   Joe: I   Marty Ray: Don't   Joe: Love   Marty Ray: Know if   Joe: It,   Marty Ray: That's a real word, but   Joe: That's   Marty Ray: I called I   Joe: Perfect.   Marty Ray: Call myself the anyway, the question was how to get started in music. That's how it all started making videos. I made that video and. After that, I said, OK, I'm going to. I'm going to keep on, I must stay consistent because I told God, look, this is what you want me to do. I'm going to I'm going to start singing, look, putting videos out and you honor and because he honors the effort, if you if he gave you a gift, you don't bury. So I'm just going to keep on doing the same thing I've been doing, putting out videos. And he seems to keep on honoring it. So that's kind of how it's going.   Joe: That's cool, and how do you so if you're performing down in a is nationally, so I'm not even going to say I've already stepped on my toes a couple of times in this conversation of saying things that aren't necessarily true. So what's the environment in Nashville musically? Is it still very heavy country or is is there a lot of different varieties?   Marty Ray: You know what's weird is I don't play in Nashville, I'm trying to I play the people don't realize it. I'm not really a I'm not saying you, but people don't realize that I'm not a bar band. I'm not against bar band, but I could never do what they do. My hat's off to my golf buddies. That's exactly what they they've done for years. And they play those people play for four hours and go to another gig playing for hours. I can't do that. My voice wouldn't hold up to that. I sang. I only know one way to sing. Like I said, I probably don't do it right. I'm just saying from the heart. And I push notes out really hard so I can give you two hours, maybe three, if you. That's what we mainly do. Private show. So the main thing we do is private gigs and I love doing props. Doesn't have to worry about getting people to buy tickets. So   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: It's really nice.   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: But I do. I have done festivals and the festivals are really cool because it's a bunch of people gathering tickets. So it's just a very scary thing to. To not know what your fan base is in a collective area,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: If I always tell people, I say if all my fans, I got like one point three million fans across the board, if every one of my fans were local and national, I would probably never leave Nashville because I would not would actually book a show throughout the year. Once a month, it would sell out. And I would then by the end of the year, I could start over again and service the same people that were serving at the beginning of the year,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: You said.   Joe: Yep.   Marty Ray: But unfortunately, fortunately, I always say unfortunately, fortunately, these fans are all across the world like I got people to say, and when you come to Scotland, when you come to Ireland, when you come to Europe, when you come to Australia, you've got a big fan base here. And I don't know. I don't I think it's scary to try to book something in another country and then think so. The only way we can do it is if people pay us up front, we say it's up to you. I don't know what my fan base is, but it's up to you like I am now, though, kind of branching out. It's the first time I've ever done this in a while. Where I got to show in Tampa in March, March 11th, and it's the first time that I've ever first time I've ever seen the first time in a long time that I've actually sold tickets to a show. So I'm terrified that this time will show up and there's going to be five people there. You don't know me. And   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: This place   Joe: No,   Marty Ray: Only   Joe: I know.   Marty Ray: Holds it only holds 250 people. So, you know, you just never   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: Know. You   Joe: All right.   Marty Ray: Don't you don't you don't know what's going to happen. But which we're going at it, like I said. Got it. Got honors effort. And I'm to put forth the effort even if it's failing. You know, Timberline is.   Joe: Demeanor, boots.   Marty Ray: No, Timberland, the the producer.   Joe: I don't think so.   Marty Ray: Joe, I don't think you listen to everything, I think I think I think you think. You think historically I think I say what you. Let me pick out what you actually do on a daily basis right now. But look at you. Let me say I'm getting I'm definitely getting. I know you like Chicago. I know.   Joe: Yes.   Marty Ray: I know. That's probably on a regular. So I'm thinking like soft rock. Salved, rah, rah, rah, rah.   Joe: I do, I listen to everything, I mean, when I put on Aleksa, I say, but I mean, I don't all day I'm working, so I'm not listening to stuff and I'm not staying up with everything. I force Alexa to say, hey, play me. What's the latest play the latest pop station and she'll just play all these things are or whatever. But I mean, I'm I've played everything as a drummer. I've played everything I've played for Jewish weddings and bat mitzvahs and bar mitzvahs to playing a rock show at the Whiskey A go go in L.A. to playing jazz and then all the rest of the stuff. So.   Marty Ray: What do they miss? They play at a juice bar mitzvah.   Joe: Oh, man, it's just that same that same beats just like that, it's just like they're dancing. I mean, I played that beat for forty five minutes straight with a tux on and I had to peel the coat off me. It was just crazy.   Marty Ray: Wow. So   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: It's like so they don't. They don't have, like, different varieties of music at this stage. It's just that it's almost like I don't know what it is, but it reminds me, when you were doing that, it reminded me of a like a   Joe: It's like a poker groove, kind   Marty Ray: Yeah,   Joe: Of.   Marty Ray: Like a polka sound   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: Like a trumpet   Joe: Yep, yep, yep.   Marty Ray: And people dancing and holding and holding their arms and dancing.   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: Is that kind of what it's like?   Joe: That's so during so the one I haven't done a bunch of them, but the one that I did was forty five minutes of that and it was all of the different relatives dancing. And then they lift them up on the chair and they do so literally for forty five minutes to turned around to me and said, just play this groove and do not stop till I tell you.   Marty Ray: Kylie, I hope you got paid well.   Joe: It was a struggle, just speak, but it was   Marty Ray: Man.   Joe: Called was fine, so.   Marty Ray: The funny part about bringing a Polke is my that when I. Interviewed Darius Rucker, we just talked about that one of the things we ended with, I said, so we need to write what song? Because I was right when he had ship, when he had went from Hootie   Joe: So country,   Marty Ray: And the Blowfish   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: To going into country   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: Music. And I said, what other one of the genres are trying to write? He said, Man, I'll do anything, man. I said, I mean, you polka we're doing a polka song together. And he laughed and said, Let's do it, man. Never did it. Matter of fact. I had Dariusz number on my phone for four years and. I tried to call it the other day out of the blue to try to get him on this new podcast   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: In the number of change. So I was like, oh, crap.   Joe: Well,   Marty Ray: So,   Joe: That's good.   Marty Ray: Yeah.   Joe: So let's go. So twenty seven year podcast pioneer, right, you come out with one. And what was the the theme behind it? Was it it was just all musical artist.   Marty Ray: No, it was actually the same exact setup as I have now, because I love I love having interesting people on, but the interesting people usually are in time, not always, but they're usually entertainment, meaning. Any realm of entertainment that   Joe: Mm   Marty Ray: Could   Joe: Hmm.   Marty Ray: Be boxing, that could be in a that could be sports, could be wrestling, it could be comedy, it could be music, it could be active. We've got all of it on this show now that we've that we that we started work. We just had Bert Krischer on last episode. And before that it was before that it was a food review episode. We did we just me, Chris Wallace and Jared Callinan, my buddies, we love food and if you can tell or not, but I kind of like food a little bit. I know. I know I don't look like it, but I do like food. And before that it was. I don't remember who paid for that, but it's like Darryl early, so country artists that you probably know the country.   Joe: Right, so   Marty Ray: No,   Joe: So.   Marty Ray: We actually actually also have Vanilla Ice on.   Joe: Oh, I saw that now I saw that picture of you and him. Yeah, so that was cool. How was   Marty Ray: It   Joe: That   Marty Ray: Was   Joe: Interview?   Marty Ray: Very. I was great, we were already buddies, though,   Joe: Ok.   Marty Ray: Before then, so that's usually how I try to make it, even if I don't know the parts. Like if you go listen to me and Burt talk, you will think that we have known each other for a lifetime, but we really haven't. And I didn't know him other than just being a fan. And I just sent him a message. He hears where he made his mistake and I told him this a comment. I was always commenting funny things on his own, his Instagram post, and he one of them he liked and laughter and he followed me and said, That's where you made your mistake, because you followed me   Joe: Right.   Marty Ray: As when you followed me. I was already following you. So as soon as you followed me, I said, well, now he's going to see these messages. I'm partisan.   Joe: Ok.   Marty Ray: So I sent a message. I said, hey, big fan, yada, yada, yada. And it's true. And I said, I'd love to have you on my podcast because, you know, he's a he's actual podcast. That dude that do makes more money podcasting than he does doing a TV show.   Joe: Crazy.   Marty Ray: So you're talking about a pioneer and he's an actual pioneer in podcast. But anyway, so I'm sending his message. He sent the message. He goes, yeah, I'd love to. And I said, All right, well, how about this such day goes on. We're going make it happen. That's right. So we get closer to that day. And I say, how bout it? No, no response. No response, not cinema next. And then the next week I said I said, how about it? We're coming up on it. And then this just went on and it would be times when it would be a long gap of me. Every month I would   Joe: Hmm.   Marty Ray: Send him a message. I would say, hey, you should be all I love you. Let's do it. Let's make it happen. So and I and then I started getting I started going like, this is a game at this point now. And I told him, I said, this is because this went on for a year. Now, keep in mind, this went on for a whole year,   Joe: Wow.   Marty Ray: Maybe sending a message, these dams. And I started saying, this is not going to stop. Until you either say yes or no or block me or you're on my show one or the other, and I said, that's it, I'm going. I still love you regardless. But they're saying I'll stop within the next month. I was like, here's your monthly Maadi message. And every now and then he would put LML every now and then. And so eventually we finally got to he finally sent me his phone number. But what I had to do though, at the very last, I actually sent him a list of people we had had on   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: To kind of show him NYSUT. I've had famous people on my show, like, in case you're wondering, I've had famous people, we we didn't just start we've been doing this for a while. We know what we're doing. You know, I don't think you're going to waste your time, if nothing else, to have a good time. And so that's what he sent me, his phone number. And I said I said, what's different now? Because I got a phone number. And and so it happened and it was great. But if you listen to it, anybody else, it's on the Marty Ray project charts. I should say that probably that's the name of the podcast, the motorway project. Yes.   Joe: Ok.   Marty Ray: If you listen to that, you're going to think and it's funny because he read I told him, I said read some of those messages that I sent you and he read some on the show and he read most of it. We're just busting out laughing because it was so funny thing ever, because he said most people will say, be on my show. And I say, yeah, I'd love to. And he and he I think he really would love to be able to do everybody show, but. He knows realistically that he can't there's no way he could do everything and he said that and he said, but most people, by the time he don't answer back after the first time or the second time, they start getting very, very hateful and mean.   Joe: Oh, wow.   Marty Ray: And he said he said you never did. He said after a year, he said you never got eight boys. That was always respectful and nice. And it was like still love. He said it was almost like falling in love with your neighbor. So I guess he said, I feel like I know you   Joe: That's   Marty Ray: Said to   Joe: Awesome.   Marty Ray: Me, too. It's really cool. Anyway.   Joe: Yeah, all   Marty Ray: I don't   Joe: Right.   Marty Ray: Know if I answered your question   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: Or not.   Joe: And also so what happened with the first podcast, when did that actually end to go away? At some point?   Marty Ray: Yeah, because. The podcast, I don't want to do a podcast by myself, meaning what we're doing here,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: It's OK, it's OK for me to be a guest, but me personally, for instance, if there comes a time. I just enjoyed bantering with a friend   Joe: Sure.   Marty Ray: And not having the full load on me of the podcast of getting the guest book in   Joe: The.   Marty Ray: The guest and doing this and that. So back then, that was kind of the same way I had I went through I went through three co-host on that show, and I was the one putting up all the money. I'm the one putting up all the I'm the one actually getting the guest and they're not really helping. But I'm thinking if we can get a little bit of momentum going, they'll they'll start to see this is a very viable thing to do and they'll start picking up some of the load. Never happened. They they all kept quitting or not showing up. And I was actually for four for coast. And after the fourth one by the fourth one, I already did that all about the beard video.   Joe: Mm   Marty Ray: And   Joe: Hmm.   Marty Ray: I started progressing. And music stars like forget them, like I was trying to help them out, not just myself, but trying to help them out, to bring them up with me. We could have made something great, I believe, if we would if I would have kept doing that podcast, I'd be one of the biggest podcast in the world today. I do believe that.   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: No question about   Joe: I mean,   Marty Ray: It.   Joe: Based on when you started, if you mean it's all about consistency, right? If you   Marty Ray: A.   Joe: Had kept that going, you totally would have been.   Marty Ray: I have no doubt in my mind, but, you know, God had other plans because had I had that podcast blew up. That's all I would have done, I would not have probably never would have pushed music too hard, to be honest,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: Because my dream, even from childhood, my dream has always been. To have my own talk show. You know, maybe like a radio, like Howard Stern type   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: Talk show,   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: And so I said, if I know for a fact, I said because God knows better than we do. He knew that if if I if that would have blew up, I would have just said, forget music. That's too hard. That's just too hard.   Joe: That's interesting,   Marty Ray: That's a.   Joe: I hear you.   Marty Ray: Yeah.   Joe: Yeah, well, so OK, so when did that podcast end about   Marty Ray: I said, I'm horrible at times   Joe: Was   Marty Ray: And   Joe: It right when   Marty Ray: Tamla.   Joe: That video hit?   Marty Ray: No, I think we still went. Maybe a couple of months after that, but at that point, I was I was literally trying to carry the load of the podcast and be consistent in making music videos. So I just said. Nobody, because nobody cared like me, nobody had the same drive or passion about the podcast that I did, so I was like, man, this is just crazy. I'm trying I can't do all this by myself. And so I believe it's about a couple of months after my like. I don't know the exact dates. Might not have to be honest, we I'm so bad with dates.   Joe: Ok.   Marty Ray: I know that. It might not even have been I might not even had the two million video yet, but I might have had because it all started on Facebook, not YouTube, like you can't even go back in the timeline of Facebook, YouTube and go,   Joe: A.   Marty Ray: Ok, look at this date and figure it out. Because if you look at the date when Ice Ice Baby was posted on YouTube, it was actually posted to my actual Facebook profile, my personal profile, because that's all I had at the time   Joe: All right.   Marty Ray: When I was making these videos because they were getting so they were having success on my personal not not a page, not anything else. And so that's where it actually first went viral, that both both videos went viral. Their first. Did I lose you?   Joe: Yes, for a second target.   Marty Ray: Did you still have audio?   Joe: Yep.   Marty Ray: Ok. Anyway, so, yeah, but a. So I was actually pushing everything from my personal Facebook profile, so I don't know the exact date, but I think the show actually ran for about a year and a half, I believe. And then and then I called it quits, so.   Joe: Ok, so then so you have this video and this video you say got over two million views.   Marty Ray: In a day, yeah, we   Joe: In   Marty Ray: Posted   Joe: A day.   Marty Ray: It, I posted it. That morning, just just a random post like any other thank you, don't you don't think about what's the best time to post,   Joe: Mm   Marty Ray: What's   Joe: Hmm.   Marty Ray: The best strategy here? You don't think about any of that back when you first start and you just like, hey, I got this simple post you don't understand. Algorithm's probably never heard the word of the enemy. So you just post a video like I did and I posted it and it's like a set it and forget it like an infomercial right now, just opposing it. And my buddy went to Nashville because at the time I didn't live in Nashville. I lived in Memphis and we drove to Nashville. He was doing an acting audition and. We got all the way down to Nashville. He did his audition. We're headed back. He starts getting all these text and people are saying, and I've seen you in that video, it's crazy, that video. He goes, oh, OK, cool. You know, thinking   Joe: Right.   Marty Ray: That   Joe: Sure.   Marty Ray: Thinking that is because those are those are people that know him. And he was like, when I talk to them a long time ago, that type of thing. And that's where he should. And so eventually after a few texts, he he went Facebook, a lot of the videos, brochures, videos that this video is over a million views there. And I said to what?   Joe: It's   Marty Ray: A   Joe: Crazy.   Marty Ray: Million views and then I pulled it up. I pulled it up and I said, oh, wow, this is crazy. So then I text my buddy Jared who? Who does filming with me? He didn't do that video. I don't want to put that evil on him because he was definitely. Way more prolific at it than me at that time, way before me, and while now I can do a pretty good video by myself, like I just released a music video for my new single that I released in the last year for the new album called Picture. And I did that whole thing, directed it, wrote it and did the whole thing myself. It might not be the best in the world, but it's better than the most, you know.   Joe: Yeah, no cold.   Marty Ray: So anyway, I called Jared, I said, hey, man, you look at the video. I said, you need to check it out, I said it's over a million views. He goes, he goes really? And he went and looked and he couldn't find it. And I sent him a link. He goes, Wow. That's incredible. That is nuts, and I said I said, well, we made it. We made it, and at that point, you don't you have no clue what's coming from a viral video, you   Joe: Mm   Marty Ray: Don't know.   Joe: Hmm. Right.   Marty Ray: And I didn't really make it from that video, but that was a star.   Joe: Sure.   Marty Ray: You can have a viral video right now and not. Never, never yield any kind of profit from it or anything like that, you know, but it's what you do after that viral video that makes you profit Bishop Marketing. Well, that's that's a marketing tip for anybody listening. Don't don't focus on your own. Your first viral video focus on the plan after that first viral video, because that viral video, if you stay consistent and you're getting better and better, it will come no matter what it will come. I've had it happen many, many times and it's just from me being consistent. It's not because anything that any song that I put out or any video that I put out is any better. It's just because it hit at the right time, in the right way. And it was what did I do that every time a video goes viral, you have to have a plan to capitalize on that wave because that wave is going to be like here and it's going to come down.   Joe: Mm   Marty Ray: It   Joe: Hmm.   Marty Ray: Happens   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: All the time. So anyway, so that was kind of where it all began. Right, there was that video and then I was trying to be consistent, so I'm sure you want to talk about the anelli sort of kind of some of what how that happened. So then I was posting videos, try to be consistent. And then I missed two weeks of posting on. This was still on my list, was still on my original Facebook profile.   Joe: Not even   Marty Ray: Now,   Joe: On YouTube   Marty Ray: This time   Joe: Yet.   Marty Ray: I. Not even. I mean, I   Joe: That's   Marty Ray: Don't even remember   Joe: Crazy,   Marty Ray: If I had the YouTube set up yet,   Joe: That's   Marty Ray: I   Joe: Even.   Marty Ray: Don't know if I had it set up yet,   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: But.   Joe: That's.   Marty Ray: I think I might have set the channel up after the all about that beard. I really do. I think I might have done it, but I didn't post anything there besides some old concert videos originally. I believe that's what happened. And that was that was a little while after because I didn't even think about it. I don't know why, but I thought, well. And I'm I'm I'm trying to do this on Facebook, this is where it's at right now. That's   Joe: Hmm.   Marty Ray: Where I was like I was under the nails. I was like Facebook personal profile. These are all hit. They all had every video I posted seemed to have had tens of thousands of views, which was crazy to me at the time. And I was like, this is great. I got I got a two man view video, two million plus video, and I got some one hundred thousand somewhere. Two hundred. Some ten, some twenty. It was it was a good it was a good time. And then I didn't even realize   Joe: You.   Marty Ray: I had set up a Facebook page Martinrea project and I didn't have to check it, though. I never checked it, didn't realize that because like I said, everything was happening on the personal.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: And when I posted that it was three o'clock in the morning and I hadn't been consistent and I made a post with the Vanilla Ice Accoustic. And I said in that post, I said. Listen, I'm sorry I missed a couple of weeks. I don't know if anybody Zoom care about this or not, but here's the way I've been doing. Ice, ice, baby. I'll be all like it if you do. Great, if you know there'll be another one soon. There's kind of like that. And it was kind of a throwaway video. And that's another that's another testament to just put every idea out there, because you never know which one is going to be the one that put you on stage with Vanilla Ice. Right.   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: That's what's great. You   Joe: Right.   Marty Ray: Never know. And Vanilla Ice can be anything for anybody. I don't have to be literally Vanilla Ice, but opposed to that. And that video went bananas when it went next level. So then after that video posted, were people going and subscribing to my YouTube channel, like in my Facebook page by the masses because they took that. And so then after a while after Bam Margera, he posted it, world star, hip hop posted it. It got posted all over, all over the Internet, all over social media and moderate project for a while was everywhere. I was trending on on iTunes, like number two on iTunes, trending right below some. This has happened twice, actually trending right below as independent artists. Nobody, nobody behind you, nobody helping you besides God and your fans trending number two on our terms. And I screenshot of that because while for them it might be that it happens every now and then when they when that label gives a good push, got nobody pushing me but myself and   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: Like I said, and got in my face. So that's it. So it was like, any time that happens for me, it's a real treasure. So it's a real treasure. It's almost like winning a Grammy for me   Joe: Yes,   Marty Ray: Because   Joe: Sure.   Marty Ray: I look at that. But anyway, so that got that video has hundred. Well over one hundred plus million views on Facebook. Yeah, if you   Joe: Is.   Marty Ray: Add every every video together, everyone, if you can find them, all people are still still in that video opposing it and going viral and building their own channels when their own page is off of that video   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: And some of them don't even tag me.   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: So   Joe: That's   Marty Ray: And I hate that crap.   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: Yeah, someone don't tag me.   Joe: Yeah, that's not right,   Marty Ray: I dropped   Joe: So   Marty Ray: My ears out.   Joe: It's all right, so I have a question to sort out, just the sort of create the foundation of who is Martinrea today. What does Martinrea doing day in and day out? What is you what is your main focus? You know, because then I still want to talk about the marketing stuff. And then I want to also let you talk a little bit more about the podcast if you want. But I also, you know, so it's it's it's still those three things. But I want to know, like, who are you today? What is your main focus? And then we can branch off to talk about what you're doing on that podcast and then what you're still doing marketing wise with, you know, whatever you're posting and then what you're musically trying to do. What are your goals for that?   Marty Ray: Well, today, I do the same thing that I've always done at any any opportunity that comes along. Entertaining and I'm will tell you a lot of times this actually happened recently. A lot of times they pay off and it's there's a scripture that lives that used to live on my phone, my, my, my, my wallpaper or whatever, lock screen wallpaper, whatever it's called. And it was it says a man's gift making room for him and bring it to him before. Great man. That's literally my life. I promise you that there's no secret that I have other than putting forth the effort and continually making sure that even if I get behind a little that I'm going to steal, I'm not going to give up. I'm never going to quit. Because I think the only difference I think if you anybody can see this, if you read the biographies and you watch biopics, you're going to see that every success story, the only difference that separates the successful people from the unsuccessful people are the successful people never stopped. They never gave up. So when they were digging in that for that diamond, they didn't stop digging until they found the diamond.   Marty Ray: So that's kind of where I'm at now, where I want to be. My goal is has been for a while, has been to get to get to where I'll have a million fans on one platform or another. And I don't really care too much which one that is. But I think that's a big milestone to say there's a million people in one place. Are saying, I like what he does so much that I want to I want to see everything he does. So that's that's kind of and it's not just numbers for me. It's not just the people aren't just numbers to me. Everybody that like or commented or has ever watched any of my videos, every view that's a human that's a soul to me. And I love those people when they know that if anybody is a fan of mine, they've for any time, any, any, any, any span of time at all, they've probably had a reaction or a comment that they've left because I answer in the beginning, I was answering every single comment. I was just days and days I would spend   Joe: I   Marty Ray: Going   Joe: Know it's.   Marty Ray: Through answering comments. And now I can't do that. Now I can't answer every single one. But I still get a lot of when as long as it notifies me, I still get all those comments. And and even though now a lot of people that's like a strategy that people use in social media. And I hate that it's a strategy. I hate that it even is part of because I didn't I never knew that until recently that it was years before I knew that actually by me commenting on people, by commenting everybody as everybody. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I love you. I thank you so much for listening. I didn't know that that was helping me on the algorithm. I didn't know that. I was just genuinely so thankful that these people were listening to my music because I had people when I was growing up tell me this would never happen, that I would never that I would never have an effect. Some people told me I couldn't sing at all. And I believe that for a long time. And some people said, you can sing, but it's a pipe dream to think that you can do music professionally. That's never going to happen. That's crazy. That's a very visceral world out there. And only few make it so. To see all these people when they start commenting, it just warms my heart even to this day. If I could answer everyone, even today, I would. But I got a family, so I got to I got to spend some time with my family, too, you know.   Marty Ray: But as far as where I want to be, I want this podcast. Ideally, my ideal situation would be for this podcast to be earning enough money to where I can not only make a living myself doing that alone, but my co-host, Chris Wallum and the producer and anybody else that we bring in with the team for everybody to be making a great living doing that, because it's a blast. It's a blast doing that and it's fun. And then also with my music, my goal is to now that I started to see that there's people that are independent and they. Have won Grammys independently, that would just be crazy, man, for me, for my fans. To catapult me up to a place that's what's a project, you know, it's not it's not moderate's margrave project because we're all part of the project. So as a project, we all are lifting this project up to where an independent guy with nobody behind him truly, truly independent in the truest sense of the word. Wins a Grammy like that would be nuts, right, and I know that could happen, but. And I know that I see that happening at some point if the world goes on and they don't get crazy or even crazier. I could see that happening for sure at some some some time down the future. The last thing I would say in my head is not that I'm not thankful for all the success that. These covers have done for me, like there's several videos on YouTube that are that are way shoot at the sound and get out,   Joe: No.   Marty Ray: My battery is low and it keeps it keeps popping up that low battery.   Joe: Oh,   Marty Ray: Anyway,   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: There's several people I mean, there's several covers that are on YouTube and performed have outperformed Ice Ice Baby at this point. And my my real dream and goal is to have one of my originals be what I'm known for   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: More than any cover,   Joe: Sure.   Marty Ray: You see. And the real fans, the real true Martinrea projectors, the projectors, as I call them, and myself, even we're all projectors is they they actually prefer the originals, you know, and that's that's how you know, that they're that they're because most people don't listen to the originals. They don't even. And that's OK. That's fine. I need those people too,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: Because and I'm thankful. And I've had people say that certain songs have saved their lives that aren't my original. So I have no animosity towards the covers. I'm just saying my goal was to be known by my own music at some   Joe: Right,   Marty Ray: Point. And   Joe: Right.   Marty Ray: If that never happens, it never happens. It was still a good life and it was a good career.   Joe: That's cool,   Marty Ray: So   Joe: So   Marty Ray: That's about it.   Joe: So that's cool. So your your your main focuses are on the podcast, the new podcast, which what is the name of the podcast?   Marty Ray: The Marty Ray Project Chat's   Joe: Perfect. OK,   Marty Ray: At.   Joe: And then writing music and performing is the other piece of what you're doing.   Marty Ray: Right,   Joe: Ok, and   Marty Ray: Yeah.   Joe: When you perform, it's mostly for private events or corporate events, you're not doing this out in Nashville at the bar scene or things like that.   Marty Ray: No, and but I do respect those guys, I don't know. But listen and thank Marty's bad talking people that go to the bars because I stopped playing the bars. That's not me. I'm not some of my closest friends do that. Matter of fact, the guy that plays with most of the time, C.J. Wylder, that's that's what his whole career is, man.   Joe: Mm   Marty Ray: And.   Joe: Hmm.   Marty Ray: But I'm not a guess that I just can't do it. My   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: Hat's off to them, though. I   Joe: You   Marty Ray: Just   Joe: Know,   Marty Ray: Cannot do that.   Joe: I've I've seen it where I was in Austin visiting and I spent a week there with just being able to go see music all the time, and I would literally see the same guy three times in one day. I'd see him like at 11 o'clock, set somewhere, and then later on at a dinner time and then later on that night at like one of the other clubs. It was insane.   Marty Ray: Really, especially if you're a singer, like if you're if you're playing, it's not as bad, but if you're singing and you're singing eight hours   Joe: Yep.   Marty Ray: And you're really giving it all you got. But most of them, I'll be honest, most of them aren't giving it all they got every time.   Joe: Right.   Marty Ray: Because when you look into a bar, nothing I hate about bars and I'm not saying I haven't played a bar have and I will play a bar if they pay me to play that bar,   Joe: Right.   Marty Ray: I got to play anywhere I play anywhere in the world. If somebody somebody will pay me to play, I'll play. I don't care where it is. That's what it is.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: But they got they got they're going to pay for me to come out there and play. I'm not going to come out there and hope that I get money. I'm not going to come out there and play for two hundred fifty bucks or 300 bucks. Not going to happen because the difference is I'm not knocking people to do that either. I'm just saying the difference is I'll be better off posting a YouTube video because I might. That video might go viral. I'll make way more than that. I'm just doing a YouTube video,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: So or pushing a podcast or or doing a private show or you know, it's just there's a myriad of things that I could do rather than play a show for three dollars. And and I think I think everybody only has so much life in their vocals if their singer. I don't think that lasts forever. If you if you really sing with heart and soul, I don't believe it goes forever. I believe that because, I mean, you get old, people get old. So I don't want to waste I don't want to waste my time. I hate to say it this way, but I don't want to waste my money, the life of my vocals on shows. That are. People in a bar that are not even listening to me and I'm saying   Joe: I   Marty Ray: Like these,   Joe: Totally get it.   Marty Ray: Like they're not even listening most of the time they're in there, they're drinking and they're partying and they're looking at each other. They didn't come there for me. They're just at the bar.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: It's different, though, when they come for you. I did a show in Nashville at Kimbro and we actually sold tickets to the show. You know, that was a bar. But all these people came to see me. So we were all in this room, just packed in his room. And but there wasn't anybody blabbering back and forth and and they were drinking, but they weren't talking because they were there to see me because they were fans. But if you go into a random place and you start singing, they don't care where you are, you know, and that's the kind of bothers me. And I don't know how I don't know how people do it. I really don't I don't know how my buddy like Chris Schrader, he does it all the time and you just get. No. You just get no feedback.   Joe: Yes.   Marty Ray: Yeah, it's almost like you're playing for nothing. It's like you're they might as well be playing music on the jukebox.   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: And I don't like that   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: I'm sorry, I just don't like.   Joe: I get it. So let's talk real quick, I don't want to hold you, you know,   Marty Ray: Oh,   Joe: We're   Marty Ray: You're good.   Joe: We're close, but I don't want to hold out. I want your phone to run out. I want your electric to go so   Marty Ray: Yeah,   Joe: Soon.   Marty Ray: I know.   Joe: So here's the question. So we got the podcast where you originated from with that and then the new one. And then we have the music stuff that you're writing and performing covers and doing your original stuff. Talk to me about the marketing. What all of that is that you doing whatever marketing that takes place currently.   Marty Ray: That's all me, unfortunately,   Joe: Ok,   Marty Ray: That's   Joe: So it's   Marty Ray: All   Joe: All   Marty Ray: Me.   Joe: Social media, all the stuff that you're doing on YouTube, Facebook, are you doing Instagram and Twitter and are you doing any funny Tic-Tac videos or any sort of stuff on Tic-Tac?   Marty Ray: I'm everywhere. Anywhere there's a there's an eyeball   Joe: Ok.   Marty Ray: Or an ear, Marty, right projects there and it's always the same at moderate project everywhere.   Joe: Awesome.   Marty Ray: But yeah, I'm I'm always at this point in my career, I know the game. So I have to as far as what I say, I know the game. I know that I have to be consistent on every platform. Now, I also know. That you never want to post the same content the same day to every platform across the board, and I also know you don't want to use a posting service to post across the board either because their algorithms don't like that. So I kind of know a few things at this point about the algorithms. I do know now that by answering your comments, it helps your algorithm. It calls you a conversation starter and now keep keeping people on the platform. I don't encourage people to answer comments because of that reason. I encourage people to answer comments because they should be answering these people that care about them.   Joe: I love   Marty Ray: They   Joe: That   Marty Ray: Have,   Joe: Man,   Marty Ray: Yeah.   Joe: I love that that's the authenticity that is winning you over, because you can just tell that's what it's about for you. If you love the people following you, you're authentic about it. And even like when you talk about that night that where you just threw up that video, it's like I'm not sure if you guys are going to like this, but I had fun do it. And here it is that's   Marty Ray: You   Joe: Being   Marty Ray: Have a.   Joe: Authentic.   Marty Ray: It's all it's really the only way I know to be, and I think I think people know that I got nothing to hide, that I'm. I'm pretty transparent, you know, a lot of people, when they get into music, they won't talk about Jesus. For instance, you never go catch me, not that about Jesus, because that's who I serve. Right.   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: So a lot of people won't mention his name and all these things ain't going to happen. Not with me. And I got people I got fans that are atheists. I got fans that are agnostic. I got fans all across the board. I don't judge them, but they know what I am. There's just like I know what they are.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Marty Ray: There's nothing wrong with me knowing. But the minute that somebody goes, I'm going to I'm going to bend my morals or bend to let people know who I really am because I'm scared they might not like me. That's definitely not authentic. If you're if you're somebody in your house and into your fans or somebody else because you're online, that's not authentic. That's that's a lie, man. I'm not living that lie, so I won't do it. And again, if anybody, because this is taught in every in every workshop, it's social media workshop now. Now, back in the day, there wasn't I don't know if there was a workshop when I was when I first started, I was after this comment. Now, that will tell you, be sure your action, your comics take time out of the day. Answer your comments. That's going to boost your boost for an hour. And I'm sitting here thinking, how dare any of these people? How dare any of these people answer a comment because it's boosting their algorithm. Right, because. I wish that anybody that was doing that had that mindset, I wish. OK, you're not getting no more comments until you learn to appreciate that. Are people are taking the time to actually comment on your video because they like it? And I actually comment to the people that don't like it. I say, hey, God bless you. I still love you. Thanks for listening. Maybe we can get you on the next one and that's the truth.   Joe: That's awesome.   Marty Ray: And then most of the time they go, oh, man, I never thought you'd see that. I'm sorry, man. I really do like it. I'm like, you know, and you're like, why are you why are you bashing it then hours. Then   Joe: Right.   Marty Ray: It's OK if you don't like it. I'm not trying to make you like it if you don't. But if you really do like it. But you said you didn't. What the heck are you doing. What's the point?   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: Because there's times when. There's many, many times where, especially on YouTube. YouTube is a violent place and the comments sometimes now, not necessarily in my comments, like I've been blessed with mainly 90 percent positive comments. But there's a few times when people say things like how many just horrible things. And I will come back and I say, hey, man, I appreciate you stopping by. I love you. And I don't know what you're dealing with right now. You're probably dealing with something, but you're not going to hurt my feelings. God bless you. And I pray that your life gets better. But I will say at the end of that, I say, listen, I want to I want to just post something to you. Somebody like me. I got the thickest skin you could ever have. I said, but there's a lot of young people on this and on this on this website on YouTube that are really putting themselves out there. And if you go to their page or their channel and you leave a comment like that, you very well could be the final straw that pushes them to a place they shouldn't go. I said be mindful that life and death is in your tone. Not just not just words that people aren't reading, life and death is in it. So I have told people that many times   Joe: And   Marty Ray: And.   Joe: That's powerful, that's that's really cool.   Marty Ray: That scripture, that's where they make the credit, as the Bible says, life and death is in the song and you see it, we live that man. We see that people say sticks and stones, never sticks and stones may break my bones, but words never hurt me. That's not true.   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: You'd rather be hit by a stick than these words, man, because this   Joe: Oh,   Marty Ray: Up here,   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: This right here is forever, though sticks that you might break a bone and it heals. This right here can never heal it if somebody don't let it, you know what I mean? So anyway, I ain't trying to preach. Don't give me. I told you I'm like a preacher. You got you've got yourself   Joe: So   Marty Ray: Something.   Joe: It's all good, but I'm loving this, so this is something that I don't want to I don't want to. It's important for me to get this aspect of what you think about this. But I started a new since I'm a booking agent and I'm a musician myself, I used to play seven days a week in doubles on the weekends. I've seen it. All right. So   Marty Ray: Hmm,   Joe: But now I'm in a   Marty Ray: That's   Joe: Position   Marty Ray: All.   Joe: Where I can employ a bunch of musicians to play at various venues and resorts here in Phoenix and Scottsdale. And with what happened with this pandemic, I've seen just like lives being crushed. Right, because they there's nothing happening. So I just started this new venture called Making Money, Making Music. And the whole goal behind it is just to educate anybody. And it's not just musicians. It could be a sound engineer, a producer, songwriter, a lyricist. I don't care anybody that's in this entertainment realm that we're in to learn to diversify what they offer, that they have more than one talent and that talent could be used to generate revenue. And whether they're on YouTube teaching someone else how they book their band or how they write a song or how they figure out what a lyric would go well with. I don't care what it is or how you mix this particular album. Show me what you know, how you got those sounds, what Mike do you use on the kick drum or whatever? But my goal behind it was to try to educate as many people that are willing to watch and listen to either the webinars or the master classes or the video or whatever. It doesn't matter. What have you been doing to to sustain yourself during this time with the pandemic being around?   Marty Ray: Well, fortunately for me, and I know there's a lot of people it's sad to see. These musicians that a lot of them have just given up. Fortunately for me, my whole career is only a career because of online. So since I was blessed on line first and not offline first. I was already geared toward that and I was already making money in that realm, so where it did, it did. I'm not saying I didn't suffer, but it was very, very minuscule, what I saw, the financial things that I suffered, because, as I said, I only I've only ever really done private shows. And and the majority the bulk of my money came from and still does come from music sales streams and YouTube and now Facebook. So I'm going to change this, Mike, because my phone's about to die. Going to say might not sound as good, but I don't want it in the interview, just abruptly saying,   Joe: Yeah, no worries,   Marty Ray: Can you still hear me?   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: Ok, let me turn this let me turn this up. I'm so sorry about all these technical difficulties.   Joe: It's all good, man.   Marty Ray: They do their.   Joe: I'm here.   Marty Ray: You're very low, but I'm going to go that you can not not can you hear me? Good.   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: It's just amazing. Anyway, I can I can I can make I can finish the interview, though. So the only thing that I did differently was. US instead of doing it, because I'm never have done like a live concert full on concert online, so the real thing where this is a word, if you're are you in a clubhouse?   Joe: I am.   Marty Ray: Yeah, we need to follow General Caldwell. But this is a word they throw around so often. But it's a good word, but it's so overused on there. I would never say it on clubhouse, but I must say it here. I pivoted. Right.   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: Heard you heard   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: That clubhouse, right, Kivett?   Joe: I'm guilty of saying it, I sometimes it's the only word I can think of,   Marty Ray: It's   Joe: So I   Marty Ray: Every   Joe: Took.   Marty Ray: Time I hear it, I go. Oh, Coble's, but outside of clubhouse, it sounds better, but it's like everybody a clubhouse is trying to they're saying that because everybody's saying so it's weird. I never say Tacloban's, but it's a real word. And it's a really it's a really good thing that people need to learn to do is they need to learn how to adjust. So I just did. Slightly my strategy to wear when I wasn't able to do private shows and things like that, I started doing a full on of concerts and getting donations. So then could my Venmo and my PayPal and cash. You have stuff like that and. To be honest. Some of those shows, some of those shows just killed it, man, I mean, really killed as far as financially. And so. I still want to do that very same thing that we were doing one a month every month, but I haven't done one in three months now, I'm really due for one, but. Probably won't have one. I'm going to I'm trying to get the show at Tampa, trying to figure out how to make that one as well so I can kind of double dip   Joe: Yeah.   Marty Ray: And. Do a show for my online fans and for people in person, I think that'd be really cool if I could figure that out, but if not, it is what it is. But that's that's kind of the only that was the biggest drastic change that I made was actually doing full on live shows, even some with live bands online. And I would I would encourage everybody that's in music, in any part of music to embrace social media with everything. We don't matter which one. Start with just one. But be everywhere, be available everywhere, but start with just one where you're putting time and effort into it weekly. And I would say everybody should start with tick tock if you want to. My suggestion, because tick tock is anybody and everybody can go viral on tick tock. You don't have to have followers you have that can go viral from a video and have no followers. So I would suggest everybody utilize that while you can. So and clubhouse, if you're able to get on clubhouse. I've made some phenomenal connections on clubhouse.   Joe: Me, too. It's   Marty Ray: You   Joe: Amazing.   Marty Ray: Wouldn't believe. I mean, just I just did a room. We did a room welcoming of I brought up Vanilla Ice onto the app and I did a welcome Vanilla Ice to Clubhouse Room. And it got like almost three thousand people in that room   Joe: Wow.   Marty Ray: Because of him, not because of me. But it was just crazy how many people were sitting there listening to us, our conversation just like this one. So that's really the only thing I can think of. That really changed for me.   Joe: Ok, cool, so so you did have the advantage because you were hip to the whole online thing and that's how you had started, that's where you found a lot of success. And when this happened, you didn't have to change much about what you were doing. But that's what I'm trying. You know, like if you have the advice you just gave is exactly what I was hoping you would do, is say this is what you need to do if because I see a lot of musicians that all they did was depend on gigging. And now, you know, I hear the horror stories from them and I can't there's nothing I can do until them till the work comes back, you know. So luckily, I'm lucky five of my resorts have come back. So I'm now giving a lot of workout. But I, I have more musicians that I have work for. So, like, everyone gets   Marty Ray: Nicole.   Joe: Like one or two dates a month where before I had all the corporate stuff and I had so much work, I was looking for people. So I'm glad I'm glad you brought that up about, you know, getting active on Social and I club clubhouse. I've heard it more times than I can even count that every expert on there kept saying tick tock is the place to start.   Marty Ray: It is I'm up to almost 300000 followers there. And I haven't I don't know how long I've been on there, but I have been on there too terribly long, maybe it has been a while. Like I said, I'm over timelines, but just being can see if you just if you just post consistently on their hash tags, no hash tags, trans, no trans, you just never know. You never know what could anything could really go viral. And it's it's a it's kind of like the Wild West out there. Just start   Joe: Yeah,   Marty Ray: Shooting,   Joe: Get.   Marty Ray: Start shooting and see what happens.   Joe: Yep, all right,   Marty Ray: Now   Joe: We'll   Marty Ray: You   Joe: Call.   Marty Ray: Say you're there. How did you how did you how did you pivot?   Joe: Well, I just I was lucky that I had such a great year in twenty nineteen that I had a bunch of money put away that I could just sustain myself off of what I saved. And then for me is where does this might sound when the pandemic hit? I needed the break. I had been going so hard. So I always wanted to start a podcast and literally I started it like the moment the the world went silent. I was like, OK, now I have a chance. So I'm going to start my podcast. And then my partner, Joel and I, we've been together for twenty years. We started a YouTube channel and we just did whatever we felt like doing. And all our recent episodes was a 28 day trip that we took from here, going to Hilton Head and then running a car in

When we consider how we want life to be in the future we often create a list of things that we have to improve about ourselves. Yet we rarely consider that we could succeed in “improving” every aspect of our lives, and by doing so, completely lose touch with who we are and what we want. What if learning who we are creates a future far better than what we think we want? What if it creates a future better than we could imagine?"I will watch people and if they are just following their intuition, they will just pick the next thing. This is what we do, when we are just following our nature. My nature, my authenticity improved me in ways I didn't even know were happening."When we consider how we want life to be in the future, we often create a list of things that we have to improve about ourselves. Yet, we rarely consider that we can succeed in improving every aspect of our lives and by doing so, completely lose touch with who we are and what we want. What if learning who we are creates a future far better than what we think we want? What if it creates a future better than what we could imagine? Today's episode is about valuing authenticity over improvement. Brett: Joe, let's talk about authenticity. What is authenticity?Joe: Authenticity is an endless spiral in one way and the fact that it's evolutionary by nature. We think that there is an authentic self and it is the solid thing, but it's not. It's as we discover ourselves, there's always more to discover. As we discover ourselves, we transform. Authenticity is really a path more than a destination. The way that you can identify when you're on that path of authenticity is, it's always about the process. It's never about the reward. It's never like a means to an end. It's like a river. It's very much like a river in the fact that there's a way that a river wants to run and that's the natural flow of the river.Next year, you'll come back and that river will run a different way. Authenticity is constantly changing, but there's just this natural flow to it. In Daoism, they call it the way. It's a very natural course. They call it self-discovery. They don't call it self-building. We're not building ourselves, we're discovering ourselves. That's why ultimately the path of authenticity is a path of self-realization. It is finding out the truth of who you are. Somehow, for some reason, the more we discover who we are, the more that we evolve, the more that we change, the more that we show up in a way that is far more gentle, or loving, competent, capable and strong.Brett: Can you talk a little bit more about self-realization?Joe: Yes, self-realization. There's a story of, I think it's in the Upanishads. I can't remember which tradition. So many times traditions have really similar parables. There's another parable very much like this about a tiger, but this one's about a musk deer. This musk deer is moving along one day. There's a smell and it's like, "What is that smell?" It just feels like a memory. It feels like a calling. It's like something gets opened up in this musk deer. His impulse is like, "I need to follow this thing. I need to follow it."It goes searching for the place where the scent emerges. It wants to find the origin of that scent. It looks and looks and looks and looks and it's almost upon its death, still looking for the scent and falls off of a cliff and punctures its stomach. It realizes, at that moment of death that, "Oh, the thing that I've been searching for comes from me. That scent emanates from me." That is the movement of self-realization. The thing that we're looking for in all the self-improvement, what we're actually looking for, is ourselves.Brett: How can you relate the story of the deer following its own scent to our path of self-realization? Joe: The search of the deer looking for the scent is the self-improvement. It's like, "Once I eat the right diet, then I'll be good enough, or I'll be awake, or then I'll be loved. Once I look pretty, then I'll be good enough and then I'll be loved. Once I lose enough weight, once I meditate enough, once I have no more negative thoughts, once I stop thinking," whatever it is that you think you have to do, become rich enough. Then you'll have it and you'll find the scent that you're looking for. The scent you're actually looking for is you, it is to understand yourself.It's the only thing that really solves the issue. It's why you see so many executives and I've worked with so many executives who are at the top of their game. They've made a successful billion-dollar company and they're miserable. They did everything that they thought they needed to do to improve themselves, so that they will be loved or that they would accept themselves and nothing's really changed. As soon as they start on that path of self-realization, as soon as they are looking for their own authenticity and they no longer are willing to sell that authenticity or bargain that authenticity for a result, when it stops becoming a means to an end-- it just is like, "This is my authentic expression." Then their life starts unfolding in happiness and joy.Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about that scent trail then. How would you define improvement?Joe: Yes. Improvement is basically,  “If this, then this”, in terms of the self. It's like, "If I get sexy enough, then I will have the lover that I want. If I lose enough weight, then people will like me. If I have enough money, then I'll feel secure." Improvement is thinking that you're going to get a result from it. Authenticity is the opposite. It's, "This is what I'm going to do despite the consequences, because it's my authentic truth." That's basically what improvement comes. It comes from the idea of ways that we don't want to be who we are. The other way to look at all the ways we think we need to improve is all the ways that we don't love ourselves just as we are.Any point where you can't unconditionally love yourself, whether that is because you yell, because you don't work hard enough, because you're lazy, because you're a pessimist, whatever it is that you are telling yourself that you have to change, they're just ways that you're not loving yourself. They don't typically change. We just keep on telling ourselves that we don't love that about ourselves and we keep on telling ourselves that we have to improve it. When we actually accept our authenticity, those things just naturally move. They just shift.Brett: Reminds me of a quote that I've heard before, where somebody is speaking to somebody as though they were a child. They ask the question, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” Instead of thinking to ask, "How do you want to be when you grow up?"Joe: I have never heard that. That's beautiful. How do you want to be when you grow up? The other way to think about self-realization I think it's a Pema Chödrön quote. It's basically to constantly offer yourself up to annihilation, so you can find out what's the part of you that can't be annihilated.Brett: What are we annihilating, these built up ideas of who we are?Joe: That's exactly it. The things that we think we are that we have to defend, you can tell them because you're defending them. It's like when someone's like, "You didn't do that very well," and you go, "er." Then you are defining yourself as somebody who's competent. You're not able to love the incompetent part of yourself. Authenticity is, "This is how I'm competent. This is how I'm incompetent." Being able to own that. Then in the owning of the lack of competence becomes more competence. It's this thing where, oftentimes, with executives, helplessness is this big thing where they feel it. Authentically, they feel helpless, but to allow themselves to feel helpless is incredibly difficult because the fear is, "If I allow myself to feel helpless, then I will become more helpless." But if they authentically own their helplessness, then they become less helpless. Brett: I think there's also a fear of being seen.Joe: Yes. That's right.Brett: Fearing that there will be consequences to that.Joe: Yes. That's how you know that part of yourself that needs, wants, to be destroyed. It's the part of yourself that doesn't want to be seen in that way, whatever that way is. "I don't want to be seen as blank, a hypocrite. I don't want to be seen as helpless. I don't want to be seen as greedy." Whatever it is that you don't want to be seen. "I don't want to be seen as weak." Brett: How would you separate improvement from growth? Even in this process of finding your authenticity, you can get better at it. What is that if not improvement? Don't we need some form of improvement, whether we're tracking our growth in some way to see where the trajectory is going?Joe: The question is, what would make you need it? What will happen if you don't have it? I think that's where the key is. Does growth happen? Absolutely. I always use this metaphor of an oak tree because when I look out my window, there is an oak tree. The oak tree grows. The growth happens. Does it need to? No. Is it looking to improve itself? No. It's nature. Another way to think of our authenticity is our nature. Our nature is to grow, our nature is to improve, our nature is to learn. If you take a little kid when they're babies, they can't even walk. One of the things that they smile most at is when a face comes at them sideways, not when a face comes at them straight up and down. Straight up and down face is the face that they see right before they feed. That doesn't make them smile as much as a sideways face, which means, "Oh, we're here to play." Play for a kid is learning and we have this natural desire to learn. It is authentic in us. We have a natural desire to grow. It's authentic in us. This just all happens very, very naturally, but it's when you think you have to improve to be good enough or when it's not just the nature of your life. You look at a six-year old kid, they're constantly wanting to learn and grow and it doesn't stop. It doesn't stop unless someone has kicked the love of learning out of us, it just keeps going. I don't think we have a need to do it. I think the thing is, that improvement is just happening naturally and that's authenticity. But if you are looking to improve yourself, then you are putting the brakes on the process and you're often going in the opposite direction of the river.Brett: How do we address that fear of becoming stagnant if we don't improve or just to be measuring? Measuring where we're at and then measuring that according to some scale of value that we've created.Joe: That's a great question. First of all, question your scale. That's the ultimate thing. It's easy to play a game when you have a measurement. It's hard to play a game when you don't. If your measurement for life is how much money I have in the bank, then you can play. If the measurement is how kind I am to people, then you can play. Then you have something to measure to. If you start really questioning those measurements, what do you mean by kind? Do you mean having the most positive impact? How do you measure positive impact? What's the difference between kind and nice? What if I was deeply truthful, but I wasn't kind? Why is kind more important than truth? These questions, as soon as you start really looking at the end, if you really deeply look at the end, then it gets really scary. That's when the stagnation fear really shows up and you're like, "Oh, all the progress that I thought I was making might not have been to the right end. Maybe there's no end." This fear sets in and it's almost like this fear, like it's going to be nihilistic or something like that. Even the idea that it's nihilistic is just another way of trying to create meaning out of a situation, but the nature of life doesn't really require meaning. There's no other part of life that requires meaning except for humans. Life wants to evolve, it wants to grow, it wants to improve. It seems, as it turns out, most humans, when they understand themselves more and more, there's a deeper and deeper compassion that shows up. There is a deeper, deeper amount of empowerment that shows up. What you find is, the things that you think are opposite, such as love and being empowered, they turn out to be the same thing. That the pinnacle of loving is empowerment, that the pinnacle of empowerment is loving. You can feel this. If you just stop for a second and close your eyes and you feel what it would be like to unconditionally love the world. You just let that settle in your body for a moment. Your love is so big and so great that it expands everywhere. It's not weak love, it's not love like I'm going to let people abuse me. It is the kind of love that a mother has, that's a great mother. They have boundaries. Then you let that go for a second and then feel what it's like to be completely empowered. Feel what it would be like to not have to worry at all about the future, to not have to prepare, to not have to plan, to just know that you are capable of handling any situation, to be like Superman on a mountaintop with no Kryptonite in the world, or Superwoman on the mountaintop with no Kryptonite in the world. Nothing can touch you. That feeling of empowerment. Then just feel the two next to each other. How are they different, if at all, this full empowerment, this full love? That's how it moves. The fear of stagnation, the fear of, "Oh, there's no meaning. There's no place to go and therefore I'll stop moving," it hits the human psyche for sure. It's definitely a part of this human psyche, at least in the modern world, but life doesn't require any of that stuff. Life can't stop moving. Try to not improve for a week. Take two weeks and do your best to not improve. Don't learn anything, don't grow, don't have any realizations, don't have any recognitions. Try that for two weeks. [laughs] I told someone to do that once and they were like, "Oh my God, so many recognitions, so much realization," because they stopped trying. We feel this all the time when we're on holiday. You have two weeks off and then you come back and you perform better. It's smoother. The whole thing works better. You make better calls because you weren't actively trying to improve for two weeks. It's just the nature of life. We, by our nature, learn and want to grow.Brett: Something that came up for me in the exercise that we just did, was that both in the unconditional loving the world state and the feeling fully-empowered state, there wasn't any fear. But the concern of stagnating is just fear. The fear of stagnating is the thing that I know for me, in my life, I have spent a lot of time in the fear of stagnation. That has constricted me in those times and led to-Joe: Stagnation. Brett: -stagnation.Joe: Exactly. That's how it works. We invite the things that we're scared of, that's our nature. Our nature is to invite. If we have a fear of something, we're inviting it in, because we want to. We want to learn and grow from that experience, we want to face that fear. The fear of stagnation invites stagnation, the fear of loss invites loss, the fear of abandonment invites abandonment.Brett: Let's try to bring this back into more concrete examples to make this real.Joe: Yes. I'll do a couple of them. One way to look at it, is kids and their learning. Kids, we were just talking about, their nature is to learn, they're curious, that's what they're genetically programmed to do. All humans are. Somehow or another, we can put them into a school system, tell them that they have to improve and get A's and then they stop wanting to learn. It actually happens to something like 47% of highly intelligent kids fail high school.Brett: Yes, I did really great in school up until I got an IQ test that told me I was smart and then I got my first B+. This was like fourth grade. Then it was just like, "Screw it."Joe: Yes, you stopped trying.Brett: To hell with this whole thing.Joe: There's a great psychological test on this, that basically if you tell a kid they're smart and then they try and they don't succeed, they'll stop trying because then they will prove that they're not smart. They'll just stop trying, so they can maintain the identity of smart. It's some fascinating work. That's an example of it. Now if you take kids who've been unschooled, I think it's called non-schooling or unschooling or something like that, where kids have been somewhat traumatized in their school situation, so their parents pull them out. They say, "You can't watch television. You can't do things that are destructive, but you can not do any work until you're ready."They often times don't do any work for three months or six months. Then all of a sudden, they're like, "I want to work." Those kids, when they want to learn math, they can learn basically fractions to calculus in something insane, like three months or five months or something like that. You can read the studies on it, because they want to learn, because it is their desire to learn in that direction and they want to do it and they will do it. It's like one is moving with the authenticity of the situation and one is telling the kids that they have to improve to be good enough. It's like a punishment and reward situation, so that's one aspect.Another way is a personal story from my life. I was in high school and I started smoking cigarettes. I was socially awkward at the time. I had issues. My upbringing had some turmoil in it. I was constantly telling myself I should improve by not smoking. I was constantly telling something that I needed to improve in. Then just by nature, I got drawn into hacky sacking. I just started to hacky sack all the time and I just really enjoyed hacky sacking. It just became this thing. Then about 10 years ago, I was with one of my daughters. My daughter's having some problems in school and this occupational therapist came to us. Then said like, "Your daughter has something called sensory processing disorder." It just basically means that the neurology isn't really melding the way it would with other kids and it makes you very sensitive to stimulus through your senses. I said, "How do we solve this thing?" She was like, "The way you solve it is through doing exercises across the midline that require coordination," et cetera, et cetera. Hacky sacking would have been a perfect example of that. If you look at me, before hacky sacking and after hacky sacking, I became socially more fluid. I became less sensitive.When you have sensory processing, it's a bit of like a nerd's disease, more likely to wear glasses, you're awkward and clumsy, you don't do as well socially, that kind of stuff. All that changed with me hacky sacking. My nature knew what I needed, knew what was needed next and did it without anybody telling me to, without anything happening. I watched this happen all the time with clients. I watched clients all the time. I know basically the dance steps of transformation. Everybody does them a little bit differently.Sometimes chapter three comes before chapter one or whatever, but I will watch people. If they're just following their intuition, man, they will just pick the next thing and I would be like, "Oh my God, they picked it perfectly again." This is what we do when we're just following our nature. Then smoking, for me, on the other hand lasted until I was in my 30's, as a perpetual habit into my 30's and that was all the ways I was supposed to improve. My nature, my authenticity improved me in ways that I didn't even know were happening.Brett: That's fascinating. I can think of a lot of experiences in my life that are a lot like that. One of them being joining a 18-month course where I felt like an intuition. It felt like a lot of money at the time. In retrospect, it was very little. It was just like, "Man, this seems like my kind of thing." I don't even know what it is and I didn't. When I got there, I was like, "Wait, this isn't really all that."Joe: Yet, it transformed your business too, which is the insane part. That's the other thing.Brett: Yes, but more than that in my life.Joe: Exactly. That's the insane part. That's a great example of it as well. It's when people come, because they often come to me, because they want to transform their business and we transform their life by them taking their natural steps and their business naturally transforms. If they would have just focused on their improvement, their business may or may not have transformed. In this way, the reason I use this methodology of working on personal stuff is because that always transforms the business. It has a hundred percent success rate as the person transforms their attitude towards, their business will transform and so will their business. Brett: Let's relate all this back into the concept you were talking earlier about self-realization and self-discovery.Joe: That's good. If you look back to my journey, let's hear it from my journey for a second. For the early part, I got really deeply into awakening, enlightenment in the non-dual sense of the word, not like woke culture. I'm talking about like the Christ consciousness or enlightenment, whatever religious tradition you have, has a word for it. At the beginning of that journey, I thought it was improvement that would get me there. Once I ate the right diet, or once I did the right exercises, or meditated hard enough or blah, blah, I would become enlightened. That was the improvement side of things. It's a slow, arduous, painful process. It luckily moved enough for me to realize that it wasn't about improvement. It was just about the recognition of who I am. When that happened, this question appeared to me, it was, "What am I?" I asked that question for 10 years, maybe 10 times a day, I would ask that question. That is really what transformed everything for me. Just being in that question for that long with that level of wonder transformed everything. It was funny. I was seeing a guy at the time. I was reading every non-dual teacher I could find. The only guy that I had met personally, who I thought, "Wow, this is a person I would want to learn from," was a guy named Adia Shantay. I got up and asked him a question once in front of this big auditorium of people. I said, I keep on asking this question, "What am I?" All I get is silence. Some dude in the back just started laughing and I was like, "That's not funny?" Adia smiled and I can't remember what else happened. I remember about three years later, I was at a meditation retreat when that question, what am I, faded away. The question never gets answered. It just expires and then it expires like a firecracker, but it expires. I was in the back and somebody got up in the front and asked the question, "What am I and nothing." I just started laughing hysterically, as if that nothing wasn't the answer and that's what it turns into. That recognition of self is something that just unfolds into nothingness. That nothingness is incredibly free and incredibly potent and capable.Brett: So, who are you now?Joe: [laughs] Yes, that question has expired. There's an exercise on this, just to go back and forth and ask somebody, "What are you?" Over and over again, "What are you? What are you? What are you?" See what happens as all your answers expire. But if I had to put, what am I, in words right now, which is an exciting thought process, I would say, "What am I? I am infinitely you. I am everything and nothing in the silent vastness that everything arises in and so are you."Brett: Then what happens once that question expires? It sounds like there could be a trap here in thinking that, "This question of who I am has expired. Now I don't have to prove myself and there's just nothing to do." What am I going to do to just stay in that cave and meditate until-- ?Joe: Yes, there's a thought that says that that might be the case. In fact, some people go through that for a while. I think it's because they're like those kids, who needed to be unschooled for a while, when they have that recognition of their essential self in that way, that there is this need to just sit there for a while and do nothing. It becomes a bit dissociative. Eventually, it's no longer satisfying. We just become more and more human. We like to play. We like to learn. We like to grow. It's our nature. It's our authenticity. Once we have been let out of school, we realize there's nothing that we have to do to improve ourselves, because our essence is unbelievably beautiful, miraculous, a dream that we never thought even possible coming true, that we couldn't even have thought of coming true. There's this natural desire to rest for a while, potentially. But eventually, you want to move, you want to dance, you want to play, you want to be alive. Then the journey turns into, "How do I be alive? How does my authenticity really want to be alive? How fully can I embrace this life?" There's a book called The Unbearable Lightness of Being, which I don't even know what it's about, but the title is amazing. That's what it is. Life becomes, "How do I allow myself to be more and more vulnerable to the unbearable lightness of being?"Brett: I love that. Both of us are the kind of person who would recommend a book or reference a book that we haven't read just because of its title.Joe: [chuckles] The title. I highly recommend that title. Brett: [chuckles] The title.It seems like there could be another trap here where we have somewhere where we want to go and we're like, "Maybe improving myself along the particular metrics that I have in mind right now, maybe that's not the best way to get there, because authenticity is the best way to get there. If I just get more authentic, then I'll become this thing that I want to be and get to where I want to go."Joe: Yes, that's right. That is a real trap. It's like, you'll see this happen oftentime in tools. You get this tool that you start working with and in the realm of self discovery and you get this tool, it works really well for a while and then it stops working. Some of the times, it stops working, because you're using the tool to change yourself instead of loving yourself, so it stops working. Some of the time, that tool stops working, because you've co-opted it into improvement, instead of recognition. It's really the same thing, to improve yourself isn't to love yourself as you are. To find the authentic expression of you, is to love yourself as you are and to know that that authentic expression will naturally change you, just like the natural flow of a river changes the river.Brett: That could mean your goals will shift.Joe: Will shift. Yes. I've seen a lot of things not change as people go through this journey and I've seen a lot of things change, but I've never seen the goals of a person not change through the journey. That always changes. What's often interesting is, the goals that they used to have, just get met naturally without any effort or thought process, because they become just a step in what's necessary for them to evolve into their authenticity. I had a goal for years of having enough money to blah, blah blah. Somewhere along the line, I just didn't care at all about money. Then money just started rushing in. That's a really typical story. Not always, but it's a very, very typical story.Brett: We've talked about how wanting something is good. We just had a whole episode on what you want, how wanting itself is critical. Then we're just talking now about how wanting something from ourselves or wanting something in our future can lead towards this constant improvement process and away from our authenticity. What do you have to say about that?Joe: Wanting is critical, what you want is really inconsequential. What you want is directionally correct, but it is not the end all be all of anything. That wanting is what pulls you. That wanting is the natural pull of evolution, of authenticity. That's what it is. What you want is a strategy to get there. There's 10 or 20 strategies. What you want is inconsequential and there's no reason to attach to it. It is to follow your wanting and then to watch how you're wanting changes and watch how what you want changes. Brett: What happens if you're going through this process and the things that you want just change so rapidly that your life starts to feel disconnected or disorienting?Joe: You're very fortunate. You might feel disturbed depending on your personality type. Some folks will find that to be a beautiful free ride and some people will feel like-- there's that quote, that sometimes falling feels like flying for a little while. People will be like, "I'm flying, which means I must be falling." In actuality, as they say, the bad news is you're falling, the good news is there's no bottom. That is part of it. Rumi called it, a Sufi poet, he calls it a holy confusion, that not knowing. It's called the mystery for a reason.It's absolutely what happens and the goals shift and then the goals disappear. Then there's like no goals for a while. Then after there's no goals for a while, there's very specific goals and then there's just this movement that's like-- how did I describe it? The goal is to live principled, because you know, that living principled will make you happier than any goal that you could ever achieve. Brett: That's something that's entirely within your power too?Joe: Yes, it becomes choice-less at a point, it becomes outside of your power. At some point it's like, "I just can't not live with principled, because it's too damn painful."Brett: Give us another concrete example of how that works, when what you want is inconsequential, but the wanting itself isn't. Joe: I can give you a funny one. I'm sitting with my godson and his father and he has been a friend since high school. This story is going to be one of those stories that lets you know, maybe you don't want to have me as a friend. We're sitting there and we're having lunch together at this restaurant and my friend tells me about how his son stole $50 from him, bought a vape pen and was vaping in the classroom. I'm just listening. Son is in those teenage years. All of a sudden, five minutes later he's like, “The problem with my son is that he just doesn't have ambition. He just doesn't want to do anything.” I was like, “What? Of course he wants to do something. Do you know how hard it is to do what he did? Stealing $50, he planned that stuff out. That's ambition. Then he went and did it. Then with the knowledge that he could have gotten caught, which is totally ambition and then he figured out a way to go buy the vape pen. Then he had so much ambition to do it that he did it in a classroom and got caught. That is some CEO level ambition. What are you talking about?” [laughs]At this point my friend is just looking at me like, "Shut up, Joe, shut up." His son is looking at me like a smile, "Oh, wow, I didn't know. I should have visited my godfather more often." I was just saying, “There's clearly ambition, it's just that you want him to be ambitious in one way, but he's ambitious in another. Let's look at how he's ambitious.”  I started talking to him. "What is it that you want to do?" He wants to play this particular sport that requires some money and you got to get these guns or whatever. It's like a laser tag type thing, the next version of a laser tag. He's telling me about it and I'm getting into it with him.Then I'm like, “How are you going to afford this?” He's like, “Maybe I have to get a job.” “What kind of job do you want to get? This kind? You don't make a lot of money.” Then, “How are you going to get there?” We just went through this whole thing and he was clearly eager to do all this stuff, so that he could do the thing that he wanted to do. I was like, “How can your dad help?” He is telling his father what his father can do, to help him be ambitious and get things done. That's the difference between,  “You should improve”, to  “What is the authentic expression?”The thing is, that we do that internally as well as externally, meaning we're usually like the father in that story, rather than the godfather in that story to ourselves. We're telling ourselves what we have to improve, what we need to do, blah, blah, blah, blah, instead of just paying attention to what the natural thing is. If we follow that thread far enough down, it has far better results and moves much quicker.Brett: It's fascinating. By that measure, I was extremely ambitious and barely passing any of my high school.Joe: Exactly. It's because it couldn't hook on to your authentic-- most schooling doesn't hook on to a child's authentic desire to learn.Brett: In my case, that presented a lot of different tracks and opportunities all of which just didn't quite hook.Joe: It's really hard to hook, when you're grading people and say you need to improve. That's not hook-worthy.Brett: It's like a culture of constant improvement.Joe: We don't listen to songs that tell us that we need to improve. "Wow, a triple platinum song by Jay-Z called, “Boy, You Better Workout More." It just doesn't happen.Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about how this works in companies and in a more general sense, in cultures of self-improvement or just not even self improvement, just cultures of everybody needs to improve to get better.Joe: The constant improvement culture. It's not assuming that people want to improve by nature is what happens here. A great example of this is in that book, Reinventing Organizations, there's a nursing company in there called Herzog. Basically what happened, it was in Holland, what happened is, there's these community nurses and they got privatized. It just became all about efficiency. It all became: improve, improve, improve, improve and it was like, "This is how long it should take you to get there, this is how long it should take you to administer the shot. This is how long it should take you to get back. That's how much time you have. That's how much payment you're going to get."Everybody was going for the improved nursing efficiency. This company came along and it did a lot of really cool things. One of the things it did is it said, "You know what, our job isn't to be as quick as possible. Our job is not to improve our process in that way. It's to make it, so that we help people become self-reliant." Through figuring out how to get to that home and make the person self-reliant, instead of administering the shot, they became 60% more efficient than their competition or something like that. Maybe it's 40%. I don't remember the numbers exactly, but it was a tremendous amount more efficient.One had that natural hook, because we naturally want to help people. That is part of our nature. All mammals, that are community-based mammals, have altruism as part of us. They hooked on to that natural thing and then that led to natural improvement, but they weren't trying to improve in some unnatural way. The interesting thing is, as soon as I say, it's our nature to be altruistic, somebody will say something like, "It's our nature to be self-interested." I say, "I agree, it is." It's our nature to be altruistic and it's our nature to be self-interested and it's our nature to want to be rewarded and it's our nature to want our team to win and it's in our nature for us to win. Companies that are really becoming the most efficient companies, are hooking on to all of that. If you think about that nursing company, their team won and they had individual reward for the performance. As it turned out, people got to decide their own reward. Also, they got to help. They're hooking onto all of these natural things in us.If you look at the great products of our day and the great nonprofits of our day, they hook into a natural, authentic desire in people. Sometimes it's drug-like, like Facebook or coffee and sometimes it is not drug-like. Sometimes it is just our nature to want to communicate. That's what it means. Not only does your product-- but your culture needs to--if you want to be highly efficient, it needs to hook into that nature of people, our authenticity.Brett: Another one of our ESF group was recently telling me about a company that they're applying for. It's a debt collections agency that operates on transparency. Instead of trying to be as efficient as they can, milking the most money from people as possible and buying the debt for the cheapest possible whatever, they're optimizing for really being in connection with people. They purchase debt and then they're transparent. They're like, "Hey, we bought your debt for this much. We have this much of it. We expect to get a certain percentage of it paid back from various places. What can we do to get this paid off?" With that transparency and working closer to their customers, their debtors, they actually get across this sense of actually caring. They're able to come up with much more creative solutions which actually results in-- this is a new company, but it seems like it's resulting in getting much better results for them. Also they're getting just swathes of testimonials from customers that are like, "Wow, I wish all of my debt had been bought by this company. This is amazing. They're actually people and they talk to me like a human."Joe: You can see this in sales processes are more effective, when there's a real relationship, real connection going on and that authenticity is there. People think they have to compartmentalize themselves to do business and that compartmentalization, that inauthenticity, it absolutely makes you less efficient. It might make things easier to do in the short-term, but absolutely harder to do in the long-term. It makes you less efficient, because you're basically asking anybody you interact with to compartmentalize themselves that same way. A debt collector compartmentalizes their heart and they go in hard. Then their customer compartmentalizes their heart and they respond hard, or they respond like a victim or whatever it is, but they're going to match that more on average.Brett: If we focus on finding the authentic movement, then--Joe: How do I collect debt in a way that feels good in my system? How do I nurse in a way that feels good in my system? How do I produce a social media app that feels good in my system? All of those will be a more efficient product.Brett: Then with that continual asking, "What am I?" Like, "What am I? Am I an efficient debt collector or am I a human?"Joe: That's right. "If I am them and they are me, then how do I want to behave here? If I feel my natural authenticity and my desire to learn and my desire to be of service to people, how do I collect debt in a way that's of service to people?" It feels horrible to not pay your debt. To help people feel that they are standing on their own two feet and have achieved paying off debt, that can be a real deep service for humans.Brett: I wonder how many other industries can be rethought that way.Joe: Every one of them. It's endless. It's just like there's always more money to be made. There's always a way to become more authentic and each one is an efficiency.Brett: It sounds like there's a lot of faith in this process because with each layer of authenticity you find, you really have to let go of what you valued or what you thought was important, entirely to find what's beneath it.Joe: Yes, that's true. It feels like faith, until you get used to reading the river in some way. It's the same faith that maybe a basketball player would have that's going into a game. It's like you can't plan out the whole game. You can't plan out everything. You're basically choosing,  “I am going to plan out my entire basketball game”, or “I'm going to learn how to read a river” and “Learn how to read the field, learn how to read my opponents and so that I am competent in every situation where I'm in that basketball game.” Then you start having faith in your capacity to handle situations.You become excited, but you can't handle them, because it means you're getting to learn something and it makes you more capable next time. It's the same thing. It's like if you've learned to read a river to go down that river and get to the mouth of the river, it's not an act of faith anymore. It's just what you do. You're watching other people build canals and that makes them feel secure. Like, "I will just take a canal the whole way, but I have to build the whole canal." It's a lot more effort. It's very much like that. Once you start realizing, that your authenticity naturally brings you to the next level over and over again and that improving yourself is like building a canal. It's like this idea of safety, that it takes a tremendous amount of effort and is really not that safe, because lots of people die building canals. That's how it works. It feels constantly, like you're taking faith, that you're taking the risk. Then at some point, you're like, "Oh, no. It's more risky to do the other thing. It's more risky to be 60 years old and all my dreams have come true and I'm miserable," which is where that typically leads.Brett: I think we often over-index on the cost, the perceived cost of stopping doing things the way that we're doing them, but forget about the opportunity cost of continuing to do the same thing.Joe: What's interesting is, that's also part of our nature. It's also part of our nature to stay with something that feels safe.Brett: Predictable is safe.Joe: Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. Luckily, as authenticity matures us, as we evolve being authentic, we become more and more sensitive. That stuff becomes more and more painful, where we're naturally kicked out of those cycles because we just can't handle them anymore, because they're just too painful.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.comResources:Frederic Laloux, Reinventing Organizations, https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/

I had the honor to interview Brian Bogert who for me, is a real life superhero in a sense. He has dealt with his share of adversity and he continues to brush himself off while continuing to bust through barriers to create his best self. I admire all that he has accomplished in his life and he's here to help other accomplish the same and more. He goal to impact over a billion people is lofty yet if there is anyone who can do, I'm putting my money on Brian. This was a special episode as Brian was so gracious and share so much and sometimes the conversation gave me a lump in my throat as we went deep. I sure hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did creating it with Brian. Thanks for listening! Much love, Joe Brian Bogert: Human Behavior and Performance Coach, Keynote Speaker, YouTuber, Podcaster and Course Creator Founder - Brian Bogert Companies Website: https://brianbogert.com/ No Limits: https://brianbogert.com/no-limits/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bogertbrian/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bogertbrian YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmhaMgY8q-tMMCj0rpGg7iw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-brian-bogert-companies/ Email: info@brianbogert.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, I want to welcome my guests, Mr. Brian Boger. Brian, welcome.   Brian: What's up, Joe, I love I love that shirt you're rockin no limits, soldier, right there. I   Joe: Hey,   Brian: Love it.   Joe: There you go. You know what? So since we're talking about the shirt, we've brought it up. Explain to me the purpose behind this shirt. I know that you give all the money away to   Brian: One hundred   Joe: Charity.   Brian: Percent of the proceeds, huh? Yeah, so I'll first describe kind of what no limits is just high level and then we'll talk about kind of where this is. No limits is is part of our branding. And it's this belief that I genuinely feel like we all can live with no limits. It's not that we're unlimited and we can do anything we want. It's that we can live significantly beyond the limits we place on ourselves and certainly be on the way the world has placed limits on us. And so that infinity sign, there's a lot of intentionality around it, which is really about awareness and intentionality and how those weave together to help us find who we are so we can live with no limits with our life in alignment. And so as we've been building this brand, there's always been this altruistic philanthropic side of me. Everything I do and desire for me to be financially successful is also for my ability to distribute that wealth back out into the community. So when we had an opportunity that people started to really attach to the brand and what they were doing were like, you know what, let's make some apparel. And we've got, I think, five different t shirt designs, both in men and women. We actually also have a dog design, too. I'll explain that in a second.   Brian: But the reason we did it is one hundred percent just to allow people to attach to it. You see, there's not Brian Bogot companies and stuff written all over it. Right? It's really the infinity in no limits and embedding people in that. And one hundred percent of the proceeds are going to nonprofits that we're going to rotate on a quarterly basis. And so, you know, it's just another cool way. You know, I'm not gonna make a bunch of money off t shirts. That wasn't something that needed to move the needle. But, you know, people can attach to the brand and feel like they're doing something better. Their investments also helping more lives. And a big part of who I am, I'm on a mission to impact a billion lives by twenty, forty five. This is just another way to perpetuate that. The dog shirts are that we're an animal family and my wife is like obsessed with them. And she's like, we can't have apparel without matching dog apparel, which just saw me die laughing because I still think it's so ridiculous. But I love my wife to death and every time my animals wear clothing, it just makes me laugh. But it's been cool because, yeah, those are those who go to support our local Humane Society and ASPCA as well. So some of the proceeds.   Joe: That's great. Yeah, and it's a beautiful shirt. I'm always nervous about when you can't you can't feel it first, but when I took it out, I was like, I don't know. I've been in the gym a lot lately. I might be a little a little too big for him. It's like fit perfect. It makes me actually look better than I should look. So I   Brian: Well,   Joe: Appreciate   Brian: You know,   Joe: It.   Brian: I'm super anal about t shirts as well, so I'm actually happy that he said that because I before we ever posted them, before we started selling them, we actually tested a bunch of shirts. And I wanted to make sure that they fit and they felt like I like shirts to fit. Not that that means everybody else needs to like what I like. But I've had so many other t shirts and different apparel that they just don't fit right in. You never wear it. And I'm like, if I if I'm going to buy something for my own brand or have something for somebody else, I want something that people feel comfortable in.   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: So   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: I'm   Joe: So   Brian: Happy that you feel that way.   Joe: Yeah, and besides wearing it out like normal, like this with her jeans and whatever, I definitely am going to get some more because I think it's cool and it'll be a gym shirt for me. And then I think people will come to me and go, that's cool, what is that? And then send more people your way. So that's my goal.   Brian: I'm so grateful, yeah, for the gym one, you're going to get one of those embrace pain to avoid suffering shirts. That's   Joe: There you go. That's   Brian: That's   Joe: Right,   Brian: That's that's the motto in the gym that's   Joe: That's   Brian: Going to help push you, man.   Joe: Right. All right, deal. So I always I know you've told your story a zillion times, I'm sure. And I want you to tell as much or as little as you want to bring us up to today. So however, you can kind of let the audience   Brian: All   Joe: Know. Yeah.   Brian: Hold it a million times, so I feel like I know the points I want to hit, so I'll just I'll just run with it. I'm going to ask you and anybody who's listening, unless they're driving to just close your eyes for just one second. And I want you to imagine going to a store, having a successful shopping trip, heading back out to your car. And it's a beautiful day. And you think you're just going on with the rest of your life like it was just any other normal shopping trip. And then you get to your car and you turn your head and you see a truck barreling 40 miles an hour right at you with no time to react. Go and open your eyes. That's where this portion of my story begins. My mom, my brother and I went to our local Wal-Mart to get a one inch paint brush. And anybody who's known me followed me or even in the few minutes we've been talking can probably tell. I've always had a lot of energy. It's the first one of the car and not a surprise to my mom because I want to get home and put that paint brush to use. You know, this is back in the days, though, before they had key fobs. So I had to literally wait for my mom and brother to close the gap of those four or five feet, catch up, stick the key in the door and unlock it to get on the other way.   Brian: And as it happened, the truck pulls up in front of the store and a driver, a middle passenger, get out. And the passenger all the way to the right felt the truck moving backwards. So he did what any one of us would do, Joe, and he screwed up and put his foot on the brake instead of the gas combination of shock and forced Zoom up onto the steering wheel, up onto the dashboard. And before you know it, he's catapulting across the parking lot 40 miles an hour right at us with no time to react. Now, we were in that spot, so we went up into the median, went up to the car in the median, ultimately knocked me to the ground, ran over me diagonally, tore my spleen, left the tire tracks, scar on my stomach and continued on to completely sever my left arm from my body. So there I am laying on the parking lot on one hundred and fifty three day in Phoenix, Arizona, my mom and brother just watched the whole thing happen and they look up and they see my arm 10 feet away. Fortunately for me, so did my guardian angel. She saw the whole thing take place, she was a nurse that walked out of the store right when this happened.   Brian: She saw the literal life and limb scenario in front of her and she rushed immediately into action. She focused on life. First, she came over and stopped the bleeding and she saved my life. And then she instructed some innocent bystanders to run inside, grab a cooler filled with ice and get my detached limb on ice within minutes. Had she not done one or both of those things, I either wouldn't be here with you today or I'd be here with you today with the cleaned up stop. That's just the facts, right? So I will expedite a whole lot of the rest of that particular story. We can dig deeper if you want to. But as you can imagine, there was years of recovery that came from this. Twenty four surgeries and a whole lot of lessons and observations. What I've definitely learned is that I have an extremely unique story. I'm sure that your listeners weren't expecting it to go there today. But what I've also realized is that we actually all have unique stories. And what's important is that we pause and become aware of the lessons we can extract from those stories and then become intentional. How do we apply to our lives? And we all have the ability to do that. We also all have the ability to tap into the collective wisdom of other people's stories, to shorten our own curve, to learn something to share with you two primary ones.   Brian: And then we'll just see where the conversation goes. The first is I learned not to get stuck by what has happened to me, but instead get moved by what I can do with it, and the second I didn't realize until far later. I was a kid. I was seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old when I was going through the meat of all of this. Yes, I was the one doing the the therapy. Yes, I was the one having the surgeries done to me. But I was also being guided through the process. So I was a little bit in a fog. My parents, however, were not they were intimately aware of the unceasing medical treatments, years of therapy and the idea of seeing their son grow up without the use of his left arm was a source of great potential suffering for them. So they willed themselves day in and day out to do what was necessary. It was tough to embrace the pains required to ultimately strengthen and heal me. So whether it was intentional or not, what they did was they ingrained in me a philosophy and a way of living which I embody and everything I do now, which was to embrace pain, to avoid suffering. And I believe when that's done right, that's also where we gain freedom.   Brian: So it's these concepts that I use to not only become this unique injury, but how my business partners and I scaled our last business to 15 million with the span of a decade. And now how is a human behavior performance coach and entrepreneur? I flip that on its head. You will have individuals and organizations just like you, just like the people listening, become more aware, more intentional, and who they already are, their most authentic selves. You see, I believe that's when magic starts to happen and the door starts to crack to perspective, motivation and direction. And that's when people have the opportunity to have joy, freedom and fulfillment and to back into their lives. And those are the reasons I'm spending the next twenty five years of my life committed to trying to impact a billion lives on this planet. Because if we can reduce the level of suffering that people experience, which there's a lot, and we give them the chance to experience joy, freedom and resentment, we give them the permission to be exactly who they are and know the world will embrace them and love them for exactly who they are. And we can bring vulnerability and authenticity into everything we do, which are the glue that binds human connection. Then we can come together and leave this world a lot more. Beautiful place for my kids, my grandkids.   Joe: Well, let me start here first. Do you still are you still in contact with that nurse?   Brian: You know, I am actually on a mission to find her right now. I've never spoken with her. And so part of the reason I also talk about that role in that process on so many platforms is I want there to be a lot of exposure and hopefully the world is going to help me track her down because I just want to say thank you.   Joe: Sure, that time that I've heard the story, it was like, I need to ask him that question, I'm just wondering if they're in connection with each other.   Brian: We're not I'm actively looking for her right now.   Joe: Got it during the time you were going to school. How did you handle I would assume you were treated differently, right,   Brian: Of   Joe: By   Brian: Course.   Joe: Your by your friends and teachers and they always whatever the case might be. How did you handle that?   Brian: Yes, so I think I handled it from a place to survive and protect myself, although I didn't realize that's what I was doing until far later. I didn't I didn't like being the center of attention and I didn't like. Being defined. By boundaries that were placed upon other people's view of what they'd be capable of in my scenario, and so I got this really adamant approach to I'm not going to be defined by those boundaries and I'm going to break beyond boundaries for my entire life, because why not? If I want to do something, the limitation is inside. Right. I need it. And there may be a physical limitation in some ways, but like I can always overcome the physical limitation. If I have a will and desire, that's great enough. But what happened right to protect myself is I created this intellectual narrative, which was I'm good, I'm strong, I'm capable. I don't need anybody's help. And it served me really well for a long time during that period of time, I was able to really hone my emotional intelligence because I got so good at wanting to divert attention from me that I got very strong in my ability to read people, read environments, read situations so that I could almost ensure that that attention wasn't on me. And so it honed those skill sets. And it also honed my mental toughness, which, again, I'm a huge believer is a big part of the equation to be kind of successful. That intellectual narrative ended up biting me later in life. And when I was 20 years old, I broke my arm in a snowboarding injury.   Brian: Compound fracture almost lost it again. And that was the moment that I realized the power of our narratives because the world bought into mine. I had I had sung that preached that narrative so strong. I never even said those words right. That's just the message that I was sending with my energy and how I showed up and how I interacted. And now all of a sudden, I'm in my most vulnerable period ever as an adult, not having the same infrastructure and support system that I had at home that I probably took for granted up until that point, how much support I had. Now, sitting in this vulnerable position, I didn't have the courage to ask for help. So I had a lot of friends, a lot of family. Nobody showed up and they didn't show because they didn't love me or didn't care about me. And they showed up because they just believe Brian's goody strong is capable. He doesn't need anybody else. And so that's kind of the during that whole school adolescent period. Right. It was really about me proving that I could overcome the physical limitations, that I could protect myself, that I could get myself there. But what I really downplayed the importance of was the importance of human connection. So that whole next year of my life, I shifted to vulnerability and authenticity and how do I hone the relationships that I was developing so strongly through emotional intelligence to be able to focus on a true connection.   Joe: So it sounds like your parents were super special. Did they go out of their way and whatever normal way for them to handle it, to not limit you from doing anything like when somebody knocked on your door and said, hey, can Brian come out and play and we're going to play football? Did they say, Brian, go have fun? Like, is   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: That the approach they took?   Brian: You know, nobody's ever asked me that question, you just gave me chills when you asked that. I think it's a blend, honestly. They did. They never wanted to be the reason that I didn't do something. But as you would expect, all parents have a protection mechanism that kicks in. So immediately after the accident, I was I was in slings and during surgeries for a few years. And so that first year after the accident, no, I wasn't going out and playing at the level that I would have right between seven and eight. But it wasn't long after that that it was it opened up. We started having good friends in the neighborhood. We played football in the street. We played basketball on the street. We rode bikes nonstop. And so they were never going to tell me that I couldn't do those things. Now, what they didn't want me to do, they didn't want me to join a football team where we were playing tackle because for obvious reasons, I get hit really hard on that arm. Even though the doctor said the bone wasn't strong, we don't know. Right. So so they would limit it in terms of like, exactly the application. But at the same time, they got so used to me doing what I was doing that whenever the phone rang and it was somebody a number that my mom didn't know back then, she was expecting insert branded something again because I needed I think they appreciated the fact that that's who I was when I was born.   Brian: I mean, I was always the guy that was pushing the limits even before this. This gave me perspective in humility that I wouldn't have had otherwise. And so they at least were aware enough to recognize, like Brian's got a higher risk threshold and probably has an even higher one after the accident than he would have had anyway. And they they knew that they needed to give me those outlets to be able to spread my wings and be free. So they always encouraged. Right. Like, if I wanted to go mountain bike and do jumps, they'd be like, OK, you're going to get hurt. And then if I got hurt, we'd figure it out. Right? I mean, within reason, they gave me the freedom. I think they made the right decision to not let me play tackle football. Who knows what could have happened, but did I play on other sports teams? Absolutely. So, yeah, I think my parents really did encourage and they still do to this day, despite the fact that they know you know, I think my mom has just gotten used to constantly being on edge, like expecting that Brian is going to do something crazy and get hurt. That's how we find our limits in this world, is we've got to push them.   Joe: Well, tell her to not follow your Instagram account so she doesn't have to see you squatting. Four hundred pounds. I saw that. I saw the photo of you sitting there. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't watch this. This is killing me.   Brian: Well, I mean, and that's one of those things I had to learn, right? I mean, my biggest limitation for some of those things is my hand strength. And so I have to get creative and I figure out how to do things. And when I first started deadlifting, I mean, I knew I couldn't deadlift with a normal bar because of the imbalance in my body already, but I could deadlift with a bar and protect myself for the most part. Well, that worked really well until the one time that my strap broke   Joe: Oh.   Brian: While I was lifting. And this was like early on. So I had to, like, learn these things. Well, my instinct wasn't to just let go of the bar on the other side. And I think so what you saw the other day, I wasn't 400 pounds. I think it was two hundred and   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: Forty.   Joe: I know, I just I couldn't remember,   Brian: But   Joe: But.   Brian: But I but I have I have reps significantly above 300 pounds. I don't say that to impress. I rest to the point I was doing that in this one scenario when the strap broke and I didn't let go on my right hand because it wasn't instinct, because I wasn't expecting the strap to break. And this was a learning experience because it tweaked me really bad. And I mean, I didn't deadlift for a few months after that. I had to recover. But once I started getting back into it, it changed my form. It changed my focus, it changed my attention. And now I'm like intimately aware of, like every movement on the strap. And I'm like ready at any moment to just drop so that I don't tweak my back. But my core strength is a big part of my ability to not be in debilitating pain every single day. Those deadlifts keeping my upper thoracic, keeping my shoulders, keeping my back because I don't have a lot on the left side of my back, keeping them strong is essential for me to not be literally in debilitating pain every day.   Brian: And so those are the those are the pains I have to embrace. I've got to embrace the pain of figuring out how do I lift in a way that pushes my body, gets the hip hinge in there, gets the movement, my back and my core strength and all that stuff engaged in a way that's going to allow me to maintain a livable amount of pain in my back because the imbalance versus debilitating suffering. So it's funny that you mention that. But yeah, I think my mom is just used to it. My wife is too. I mean, my wife is incredible. She literally is like I know that if you set your mind to something, you're just going to go do it. And there's a high degree. At some point you going to get hurt. She's like, but what am I going to, like, box you in and continue? Like, you're just going to go do it anyway. I was like, yeah, see, like, I love that, right? It's like just let people let people spread their wings.   Joe: That's right. Well, that's great before we get off of this subject and move on. I know that you and Blake do mountain biking,   Brian: Yeah, we do,   Joe: Right?   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: And that's like a big thing he loves to do with you and you with him. And so that's got to be at least I mean, I've done it and that's a lot on the arms.   Brian: Yes, so what's funny is I have no other perspective because I didn't learn how to mountain bike until after my injury, I didn't I didn't learn how to mountain bike when my when my son did at five and six and seven. So, yeah. It isn't in balance. Yeah, it is difficult. And I did it for almost. Let's see, I did it for probably 20 years before I actually started adapting my bike. And so there's no tricep, so Tricep and Laerte are the two muscles that you absorb, all of it, all of the impact with when you're mountain biking outside of the suspension. So I don't have a lot of tricep. So there's an automatic imbalance in my body, but I've learned how to balance it because I didn't know any other way and I was motivated and wanted to do it. Mountain biking is one of the few places that I'm absolutely free. And the reason I'm absolutely free there is I don't have the ability to think about anything else. Almost any other workout I do, almost anything I do like there's time to think. Mountain biking, you've done it right. You know, like you've got to be on your game.   Brian: One hundred percent focused on what's ahead of you. And so because of that, I've learned how to how to modify my body, my weight distribution, the way that I actually handle the handlebars. But two years ago about I started researching modifications for people with upper extremity injuries. And I landed with this company in the UK that they're actually right now building a product for me that I think is going to take my mountain biking to the next level, which is cool. But what I did is I got a steering stabilizer almost like the ones they have on their bikes. There's a company in the US called Hoby and they make these steering stabilizers for for mountain bikes. So I ended up getting that which what it essentially does is it's a spring unit which snaps the bars back to being straight. I thought it was going to help me more going downhill than uphill. What's crazy is it's actually helped my climbing more than anything because I can pick a line and put all the power I need to in the pedals and not worry about the imbalance in the handles, because it'll it'll keep my lane pure   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: And with slight, rigid and then downhill. It just gives me more confidence as well, because if I were to hit a bump and it goes on the left side, your weight goes forward, the handlebars collapse. Right. And just like twist the bars, this steering stabilizer stabilizer allows me to balance it with the muscle structure having the right arm and how I can balance my body on the left and then hope, hope he breaks is also another brand that I actually found out they just released this last year, a brake unit that has two master cylinders in one unit so you can have your front and your rear brake both on the same side. I've always never used the front brake in mountain biking   Joe: Sure,   Brian: Because my right   Joe: All that   Brian: Side   Joe: Pressure.   Brian: Is always   Joe: Yes.   Brian: What you want to be able to use primarily anyway, right? Whereas road biking, which I do a lot of the front brake is more important. Mountain biking, the rear one's more important. So I was always able to get around the corners, but I never had the confidence that I could actually stop and modulate my brakes effectively. So I would take things a little more cautiously now that I have these brakes on both sides and I can truly modulate, like just with, like little twitches in my fingers and the steering stabilizer and it's changed my mountain biking game. I can go out there and rip at a level that I've never been able to with confidence. And then there's like I said, these are these two other products that I'm really excited about. But, you know, one of the things I never knew any different, I wanted to do it and I figured it out. And I think that, again, that's one of those things that I could have just told myself, like, nope, you can't do it. You don't have tricep, you don't have a lot. But I genuinely believe if you want something badly enough and you take the time to think, plan and put things into trial and error, you start to realize you can do a lot more than what the world conditions us to believe we're capable of. Mountain biking is just another example for me on many things that I've been able to break those boundaries and expectations. I see I go mountain biking. People are like, how do you do it? I'm like, how do you do it? I mean, you could you could explain to me with a fully abled body how you do it, but I wouldn't understand because that's not my experience.   Joe: Yeah, that's crazy. So, Blake, is your son Addisons, your beautiful redheaded little daughter? With what happened to you, do you believe that certain people on this earth are have the power to get through some of these things where I just think about what you've gone through? I think about even my own brother, who, when he was young, why they were there at my parents house, they were splitting wood with one of those hydraulic splitters. That goes really slow. Right. But the   Brian: Oh,   Joe: Log   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: Slipped and he had like these two fingers crushed   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: And   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: Then, you know, reconstructed but not usable in a sense. Then he lost his son at 21 years old in a car accident. And I think about this and I go, God, I. I am not I don't have the capacity to handle something like that. And I guess when it happens, it's different. Right? You figure it out. But I almost feel like certain people I don't know if they just they're born to be able to handle these things. And if this is more for the audience   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: That might hear this and go, oh, God, there's all of these things that come into people's lives that they're they're given to deal with whatever that might be. And is it just the chosen ones that can handle it? That's why they've it just doesn't make any sense to me. So that's.   Brian: Yeah, so. I really appreciate the direction your questions are going. By the way, I just have to compliment you on that. You're asking a depth of questions that don't often get contemplated. And I think that there's a lot of truth behind even what you said. You know, it's interesting if you even think about what you just said when you were talking about your brother, you say, I look at him and I'm not sure that I could have handled it. And the reason I pay attention to that is because that is what I truly believe in, how the world has viewed me, they have viewed my limits through their own lens of what they believe they're capable of. I don't think that people truly know what they're capable of until they're tested. And that can be done either intentionally or externally, right? Sometimes we get tested not by our choice. Clearly getting run over by a truck was not by my choice, but it was a test. And I could show my strength to myself into the world by how I stood back up and what I've now done with it. Why I say I have a unique story is it doesn't matter the trauma that I experienced because it's unique solely to me. The trauma that your brother experienced, the trauma that other people experience with divorce or loss of a loved one or financial despair or like you name it, we all have our own unique challenges that we face. And I don't care who you are, if you're still on this planet and you're still standing. You are a survivor. None of us get through this world unscathed.   Brian: None of us. Perspective allows us to really pay attention to what other people are going through, but what perspective is really doing is allowing us the opportunity to get in someone else's world to gain perspective, to apply to our own. So it's not necessarily about what each one of us are inherently able to handle. It's that I think we're all dealt a unique set of cards and it's how we play those cards that matter. So the thing about pain, and I'm just going to speak to that, because my experience was pain, your brother's experience was pain. He had physical pain, probably emotional and spiritual pain with the loss of two fingers and a deep emotional, mental, spiritual, and probably manifested as physical pain with the loss of his son. Pain, that's what it is. Now, pain can't be measured independent of the person experiencing it. But the one thing we know is that it's a universal human experience, we all experience pain. And so what's important is not to question can I or could I have handled that? But just to say I've handled everything that's ever been thrown my way and I'm still standing here today. So what that tells me is you're probably capable of handling a lot more than you thought you were capable of at a prior period in your life. And if something were to happen that's devastating, right in that moment, you have to choose, is this going to define me and keep me stuck or am I going to use this as fuel to who I'm capable of becoming because of what I've gone through? That's why I said earlier I learned not to get stuck by what's happened to me, but I get moved by what I can do with it.   Brian: I realize I have a gift not just in my own natural abilities and gifts and intuition and emotional intelligence and all the things. But this has given me perspective that I couldn't I couldn't have gained any other way. I can put myself in other people's shoes and know what it feels like to not be seen, to know what it feels like, to feel like nobody understands me, to know what it feels like, to have people question everything I'm capable of for my entire life, even if it has nothing to do with my physical ability, even if it's one hundred percent mental, one hundred percent job and application, they view me. As not capable of doing I know what that feels like and I've had to battle that my whole life, I don't know a single person on this planet who has never felt that way. We all feel that we all experience and it's real to each one of us uniquely so I know it's probably a lot longer of an answer than you were hoping for, but the depth of the question, I think, required that approach because it's not about what you believe you could handle based on other people's circumstances. It's about what you already have handled and what you're very capable of handling if you change the way you think and feel about what you're capable of, which, again, is typically limiting in our own belief system.   Joe: So because we're doing this recording and you and I have not talked about what we could talk about or what we couldn't talk about, I want to ask this and obviously I can always edit it out. And you   Brian: Free   Joe: Know   Brian: Game, buddy, go ahead, go ahead.   Joe: What? So when does someone say, like, did you ever have these dark moments? And this is not the part of the question that I'm going to ask. This is just in front of it. And you ever have a moment that you said, why me? Like, did you ever   Brian: Absolutely.   Joe: Ok?   Brian: Absolutely, and I have those moments still today when I get when I get hit with certain things. The reason I was able to shift out of that so quickly, I remember being seven years old and that was the first thing I remember when I woke up, one feeling like it was a dream. And then I was like in this hazy state of like what this altered reality felt like, it didn't feel real. And then it was probably a day or two before I really came to and was like awake, awake, not just like in that dazed awake. At least this is from memory, I don't know the exact timeline. This is just how I feel it. And I literally remember. That question. Weiming. What is the rest of my life going to look like, like this sucks. I felt sorry for myself. I was given the opportunity to snap out of that quickly because the uniqueness of my story drew a lot of attention to it and there was a lot of families in the ICU with us who were coming up to us saying, we're so sorry for what happened to you. This is so horrible. We can't believe how hard this must be for you as a family. Let us know whatever we can do to help. Just getting wrapped with love and support from strangers to strangers saved my life. Right. That's crazy to think about. A stranger went into action and saved my life. Had she not chosen to do that, I wouldn't be here.   Brian: So I don't take that lightly, but what's happening in the ICU with these families is we start to realize that these families that are giving us just unfiltered support. Are also questioning whether or not their kid is going to survive another 30 days from the terminal illness that they're in the ICU with. Only immediate threat to my life and not at that moment knowing whether or not I'd be able to use my arm. I knew I'd be alive and over the course of the next ten years, being with those kids and all of us who wanted to rally around this cause to help more people, to bring perspective, motivation, direction to an organization that helped us so holistically in a healing process, either physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. Right. I lost multiple of them to their terminal illnesses over the course of the next ten years. And so although I don't think about them every day, when I'm asked questions like that, it really centers me on grounds me because I'm here happy, healthy and productive, living a life that many would dream of. And those kids didn't have the opportunity to do so. And so I have to just know and honor that it was me for a lot of reasons, I might not know all those reasons in this lifetime, I believe I know a lot of them at this point, but I still ask that question. I mean, last week was an unbelievably challenging week for me.   Joe: I saw the story and, yeah, that's part of where,   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: You know, this   Brian: I mean,   Joe: Is   Brian: Last   Joe: Going.   Brian: Week   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: Was an unbelievably challenging week for me, for a variety of reasons. One was around this fabricated reality, around a date that in some ways is very significant, in other ways is not significant. But coincidentally or coincidentally, I got kicked in the stomach multiple times last week. And yet it didn't really totally faze me in a way that brought me down to the deepest, darkest moments, because every time I face those things, every time I start to ask the question, why me? It starts to reveal itself faster and faster the more I go through the pain. And and and so I now have this element of trust in surrender where the literally last week I was like, why do I always have this stuff happening? Why am I the one that has to deal with this? Literally? I mean, I said to my wife last week and then in the same breath, I'm like, I know why. And so for those that did ask that question still. I would just encourage you to recognize that there absolutely is a resum. Nothing happens by accident. You could call this my accident, but this was for a purpose, it wasn't on purpose, but it was for a purpose. And I realize that now more holistically than I have in my entire life, but it's the same thing for everybody else. I mean, I guarantee that your brother has learned from his experiences and having to adapt and do things with the loss of two fingers. He's had to learn and adapt. What does it mean to be a parent? And there's so many are out there who live on their lives without their child. Still a part of it. Parents aren't meant to outlive their kids.   Joe: Correct. What's   Brian: Right,   Joe: The what   Brian: And.   Joe: The worst car I could think of?   Brian: And by the way, there was this pending doom around this date last week that was connected to that for me, as well as from a parent's lens now. And the data is reference to a couple times I didn't I didn't say specifically on the show, but this last Saturday, March 6th, was the day that my son, who's my little clone, my little mini me, my my only boy and my oldest. Was the exact same age to the day that I was on the day of my injury. Twenty nine years separated. And. There was a lot to that most of what happened in the 10 days leading up to it had nothing to do with my son. But they were absolutely clarifying moments that needed to take place in that window. And Saturday was kind of a new start for me and a whole variety of ways, which was just unbelievably cleansing and freeing and purifying. And so even the questions last week, why me? Why does this always happen to me? Why do I have to be the one to do this? We're very clear. I know, and I think all of us do we just fight and we resist because it's not in alignment with what the world tells us. It's not in alignment with what the narrative is externally. Right. But it's not about being the victim. It's about recognizing that if we have ownership and accountability with everything we do, we recognize that there's always a reason, there's always a cause, and there's always a way through it if we desire it enough. That's when we start to become free.   Joe: Ok, so here's the the part where I want to talk about Blake and Addison really quickly, I don't want to stay because, you know, I know you're super productive, positive guy. And I don't want this episode to be like the Debbie Downer episode. But you went through a lot in your life up to this   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: Point. Right.   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: And   Brian: A lot.   Joe: Then, Blake, I remember you talking about this, so I'm only bringing this up because I think you've talked about   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: It and.   Brian: I've shared publicly on stuff, I'm sure I know where you're going,   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: But go ahead.   Joe: So so you said it is is on the spectrum, right, and so you there's an extra amount of attention that has to happen   Brian: Of course,   Joe: There. Right.   Brian: Of course.   Joe: So then you deal with that another moment where you said, why me? Like, I haven't I haven't. I gone through enough. Why me? Right. And then now you have yet a third time now with with Adderson with her here. Right. And I could be another time we go. What is it going to stop. Like why me. Right. I'm sure there's people out there that do not handle this anywhere near as well as you do. And I'm hoping your words of wisdom, if they run across this episode, that it will help them understand how you I mean, you can look at their beautiful faces and go, oh, it doesn't matter. You know, they're amazing. It just it's a it's a small little blip on the radar. But it's still some people can't even handle the bullet. So   Brian: They   Joe: That's,   Brian: Can't.   Joe: You   Brian: They   Joe: Know.   Brian: Can't. And by the way, there's a lot more depth and truth to that statement than than you probably even realized, I mean, to the point that when we found out about our daughter's hearing loss. The audiologist actually said to us she does have loss and she could benefit from hearing devices. And I paused and I said. She could benefit, like are you saying she needs hearing aids, like is her hearing profound enough that it's not like she would benefit? She she needs it to restore it to what we would expect are going to be? And she said, yeah. I said, why didn't you just say that? And she said, because most parents don't want to hear it. And she said that even when they do want to hear it, she said, because of the reports that we get when we plug in hearing aids, even if they go through the process of getting hearing aids, even if they go through the process of doing these things, she said. Most kids, the hearing aids live in a drawer. Because of some reason, right, that either the parents don't think it's important they're embarrassed by their kid or whatever, like there's a whole slew of things. You're exactly right. And in both those moments, by the way, when we found out about our son's diagnosis on the autism spectrum and we found out about our daughter.   Brian: It was it was challenging, right? It was absolutely challenging for both my wife and I and we both we both grieved in different ways. And why I choose the word grieve is any time we have a vision for our lives. And that reality that we've created gets stolen from us, we experience loss. We literally go through the grieving process, the multiple steps of grieving, sometimes it's anger that manifest first, sometimes it's just like absolute depression. But but recognize it for what it is like having something happen to your kid and realizing that they might have an altered future from what you always desired and hoped for them. You have to process that, but then once you process that and you start to realize like this doesn't define the kid, just like a mine accident didn't define me right. What this really does is it's a gift because what getting both of their diagnosis is as early as we did, what allows us to do is wrap them with services, wrap them with all the support they need to close the gap between whatever their diagnosis limits them from doing to what a typical kid might be capable of doing. It shortens that gap early in those foundational early development years so that it won't really ever hurt them.   Brian: Plus, the more that we talk about it not as an ailment, but just a part of who they are, right. It's no longer a label. It becomes a term of empowerment because they recognize that like they have superpowers as a result of what their diagnoses are. So the answer is yes. There's there was absolute grieving for both my wife and I, for both children. We're well beyond that at this point. But it hung with us for a while. And and there are still moments where the difficulty and complexity of our household that most people will never understand and ours is light compared to what some other people's situations are. Right. So we keep that in perspective, too. Is it harder than most parents and most households might have to be? We believe so, but it's not about like we have got it more difficult than what they have. It's just this is the cards were dealt, so we're going to play them as best we can for both of our kids. We know how lucky they are to have us. My wife is brilliant. My wife is brilliant and what she has done to allow our kids to feel authentically who they are in safe, despite all of these things, despite the fact that they know they're different in certain ways and honoring and cherishing, encouraging them to just make do the things that make their hearts happy and stand up for what is right and know that they're worthy of receiving love like exponentially.   Brian: And all these things, like my wife and I were partners, but our kids are lucky to have us at the counter to that is we also feel extremely privileged to have our kids because they have challenged me to go to depths of myself, my soul, my emotions that allow me to be more effective in the world. That had I not recognized those scenarios for what they were, which is we can handle them and let's figure out the plan forward. It probably would have made me feel stuck longer than it did. And so for those parents that are listening out there that might have kids like this or even if there's not a diagnosis, but you just have a challenging time or there's an injury or there's something like, again, nothing happens by accident. And so the only way through it is through it, and if you if you desire something on the other side, then you've got to go through and that's really what it comes down to.   Joe: Really powerful and I appreciate you sharing leading up to this interview, I wanted to talk about those things and I was just like, I know he's talked about it, but I I didn't know how to actually go after it and   Brian: You did it beautifully, my friend, it was   Joe: Think   Brian: Great.   Joe: I'm grateful that you shared. And so, OK, so now you and I know this is a big jump, but I just want to I know we   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: Have limited   Brian: No, let's go. We got it, yeah.   Joe: We have limited time and I don't and I want to get to where you are today. So then you get into the insurance business. Correct. So you're in that for you grew a company. I think it was from like.   Brian: Quarter million to 15 million over the span of a decade.   Joe: You just picked that that was just a career that you pick at one point and.   Brian: Yeah, you know what's funny, I saw depicted it sort of picked me up, I was my junior year in college, was deciding that I needed to go get an internship. And so I started looking at a whole bunch different places. And I actually ended up getting into insurance because my one of my childhood friends and my childhood girlfriend, in fact, that we grew up together. And a lot of ways I always had her parents were like second parents to me for a lot of years. And I always had a great lot of respect. But I always viewed her dad as this very successful man. But I knew nothing about what he did. And I reached out to him as a mentor, frankly, and just said, hey, I'm going out. I'm doing these interviews and I have these things. And I talked to my own parents and they're successful. They've done these things as well. But I wanted extra perspectives. And he ultimately was like, I'm going to pass on your resume to so-and-so. And if you don't get a call in three days, call me. I was like, OK, not a clue what it was. It was the only one that was in insurance. Right. Very, very amazing opportunity. And it just took off from there. And nobody grows up wanting to be an insurance, right? I mean, and if they do and if you're listening to this, I apologize if you always had a desire to be an insurance. I know there's some people who love it. I never loved it. It was a great vehicle for me. And it was a great testing ground for me to grow and develop who I was as a professional, who I was as a man. I kind of grew up in it, but yeah, no, I didn't seek out insurance. I kind of fell into it and it just it fit.   Joe: Right. So while you were there with your inner voice saying there's more out there for me, I want to do more, whatever it might be. I mean, how did you make the jump then when you left   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: There to now what you're doing, which is the coaching and the speaking and and the podcast. And I mean, I, I look at your website and I get tired just looking at all the all the different menus that I could take a look at stuff. And then I went into the podcast when I was like, wait, is he doing actually three podcasts? Like, how is he doing all this? So how did you decide how did you decide you were going to leave insurance and then pursue the Brian Bogot we know today?   Brian: Yes, so I'm going to start with the first question you asked, which was, did I always know? I knew for a long time I've always had this gut feeling that like there was something meaningful that I was meant to do. No idea what that meant. OK. And then I conditioned that out of myself, and when I first got out of college, it was like bright eyed and bushy tailed, I was going to go take over the world and make a ton of money. Right. I'm going I'm literally going to be running the company. I'm going to climb the corporate ladder. I mean, it was all external. And, you know, this is one of the things I talk about now is I chased the what like so many of us did. Right? I chased what house, what car, what amount of money, what amount of success, what image do I want to portray? What, what, what, what, what. And I lost the who along the way. And I woke up one day after having accomplished all the words that I ever desired, way earlier than I thought I would have, in a way bigger level than I ever thought I would. And I realized, like, what have I been doing all this for? The more money I made, the less I cared about money, the more I got into a successful career, the more I was like, why am I doing to myself? And then I'm running in circles with people making six, seven, eight figures who all were having high of success and they were all miserable to.   Brian: And so those were the turning turning point moments over the probably the last seven to eight years, maybe six, seven years, if I'm being real honest, because when I first started coaching, it was because I had my son and I always said that I'm going to do everything for the benefit of my family always. And I did. But then six months went by when my son like that and I realized I missed all of it except the first week because I was burning the candle at both ends, I was still living the life that I was to create this abundant amount of external success and validation that I needed to prove to myself I could do it and I never recalibrated my life. So part of providing everything for my family is with finances and security and opportunity and safety and all those things. But but but it's also love and leadership and presence and connection. And I don't want to be that guy that did everything for his family, then woke up twenty five years later and never had a relationship with any of them.   Brian: They decided that I didn't serve a role for them outside of money. It's not all about money. It never was all about money. And so it was the first in my life. I didn't have the people in my life, the mentors, the experience or the intellect myself to figure out how to fix it. So I hired my first coach. And he said to me, a month of working together, because you're going to be doing this, like, what are you talking about? He said you need to be coaching and speaking. So you've been on stages since you were seven because you've got a unique ability or a unique story and you have an ability that you're not afraid in front of groups. And he's like, you're all about building people and building businesses. Like you're always helping. You're always finding ways to level people up. You're always helping them connect dots. And I was like, yeah, whatever. I was like, I'm paying you a lot of money. Not that's how great I have to figure out this stuff. And I completely threw it out the window. And then it just kept trickling. It kept trickling in every single month for about nine months.   Brian: And then this crazy experience happened, which again, nothing happens by accident. But the universe gave me the sign that I needed, which was he told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. And that's when I started to desire a little bit more and started to feel like maybe I wasn't in alignment. But I had to ask the question if I'm going to jump in being in coaching, is this complementary or conflicting to everything else I had because I was so significantly invested mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually and monetarily. Right. In this other business that we built, that was the fruits of its labor were just starting to pay off. And it's like, let's let's make sure that we forge ahead on what we're doing here. So I started coaching and speaking and I did it alongside for about five years and then summer of twenty nineteen comes around. And again, I told you, I'm running in circles with people that are miserable. And I realized my relationship with my clients started shifting to more coaching relationships. We were placing multi million, hundreds of millions, tens of millions of dollars of insurance for people. And my conversations had nothing to do with insurance with the people that I was actually interacting   Joe: Right.   Brian: With at the C Suite.   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: Right. I was coaching them on how to be better people, how to be better leaders, how to change the culture of their business, think through and problem solve on things that really had nothing to do with insurance. But the insurance was how we were in the door. And so the more that started to migrate, we have this connection moment summer twenty nineteen with my wife and I. We go away for a weekend and it was one of those that like mentally, spiritually, physically and emotionally, like brother, like our souls were bonded like we were one and we're driving back to pick up our kids and she looks, everybody goes, how would you feel if you did have to go to the office on Monday morning? And I was like, that's a pretty loaded question.   Joe: No.   Brian: Why don't you tell me more? Well, I had some other I had some other health stuff that impacted me pretty significantly a few years back. I'm good now. It's all all squared away. But she said, I think you let some of this stuff allow fear to enter into your world in a way I've never seen you operate. She said, I feel like you've convinced yourself that we need the money, the status, the prestige, the security, the all of the above, what's been built. She said, I'm here to tell you we don't I don't care if we live in a cardboard box. What we need is one hundred percent of you. And she said, I don't know if you see it or not, but I see you dying a little bit inside every single day. You live in insurance. And and so she said, I think you're barely scraping the surface of your potential, nor do I think you have any impact on the world that you want. And then she said, you know, there's nobody on this planet I'd rather take a bet on than you. We took a big bet on you once and it paid off. Why don't we double down on that bet and see what you can do? And so, you know, this was one of those moments where I was flooded with fear, flooded with a whole bunch of emotions. And I had to spend three months really unpacking it with complete awareness, complete intentionality, understanding where my blocks were and ultimately came to the decision that I needed to embrace the pain of walking away from the easy button, from the sure thing, to avoid the suffering of not ever knowing what I could become or what I'd be capable of doing from an impact perspective.   Brian: So you fast forward to today and you know, I spent 10 months unpacking that business left at the time, the best year ever in that industry, the year I left and was simultaneously building the foundation for where we could go. And, you know, I'm not sure if I said it or not yet on this show. I think I did. Yeah, but but that's that's now where I'm so clear and convicted on this billion lives. I genuinely believe, like we've got an opportunity to to change the world and make people feel at a level that they've never felt and feel free. And so I know what that miserable, dark place looks like. I've spent a lot of my life in moments like that. No one deserves to feel that way, but a lot of people do. And right now, I feel more free, more fulfilled, happier and more like myself than I have in my entire life. Everybody deserves to feel how I'm feeling right now. And so when I started to get the curiosity, I didn't even lean into it. My wife pushed me. And she, along with my other coach, told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear, and it's not lost on me, the courage it took in my wife to take that leap of faith with me and give me the push knowing it could upset her entire lifestyle. And so that's what I had to honor because my kids are watching, I don't want my kids to see me do what I want my kids to see me do what's right.   Joe: Incredible. I love it, so your podcast, what are there, is there are there three, is that   Brian: You   Joe: Right   Brian: Know what, I actually   Joe: Or.   Brian: Don't even have my own yet,   Joe: Ok.   Brian: I I'm in the process of developing a few. What you've probably seen as I have Bogarts Bullets, which is a regular consistent thing, but and it's going to be repurposed into a podcast. But right now it's just on YouTube and it goes on all my social channels. We have a marriage hack's string that we've started that my wife and I, we've now done we've only done one episode, but we repurpose it into three. And then my content team and strategist's decided that there are a whole lot of thought leaders, influencers, speakers in the world that create intellectual content similar to what I have for years, Bogarts, bullets putting things out, podcasts, other pieces of content to get distributed. And then there's bloggers that are much more niche, but there's nobody that's doing both. And so he's like. If you talk about how you live, you talk about these philosophies, you talk about these guiding principles, these lessons, these things that you do. Why don't we pull the curtain back and show people behind the scenes that that's actually how you operate. And so those are the three things that you've probably found is bogus bullets, the marriage tax and then the No Limits blog. And all three of those, although they're not currently set up as podcasts, one of them will be repurposed that way. And then I'm actually in the process right now. I'll be a co-host on at least two podcasts. We're going to be launching here soon, likely three if this other concept takes off. The podcasting world has kind of changed my world in a lot of ways, in a way I never saw coming. And I've been on over one hundred and fifty other people shows in the last seven, eight months, and it's allowed me to have opportunities to meet people like you. Right. And the connection with Ken Joslyn and Steve Sams. Right. Which both were people that I was on their platforms, on their shows. Like it's allowed me to align myself with incredible individuals on this planet so that we can truly have collective impact. So those are the three shows that currently exist. But they're not podcast currently.   Joe: Got it. OK, so you have things coming up, I know that you're doing the Ken Joslin's   Brian: Yep,   Joe: Boot camp, right?   Brian: Yep, yep, I'm doing his boot camp in April, I've done two of his I've got some other speaking events coming up. And then we've also got a few things launching that I'm really excited about. So we're still doing all of our work with no limits university, which is really like the concepts and the philosophies to help people understand who they are, leading them on intrinsic journey. But we also have another entity in a movement that's called Who before what that's launching as we speak, which is really an attempt to help us change the language and narrative in society about putting more emphasis on what we do versus who we are. And it's not that one or both don't matter. It's that they both matter. But one needs to lead, which is who. And so we're going to change the narrative because it's this whole idea that you go to a networking event. And the first question everybody asks is, what do you do? And even if you asked who you are, like, tell me who you are. Ninety eight percent of people answer with what they do, not who they are.   Joe: So   Brian: Part of the   Joe: True.   Brian: Pain and suffering that exists on this planet, as so many people don't know who they are. And so a lot of the core of the work with everything we do with our coaching and the No Limits university and those things are all about that. But we're actually creating a specific movement to bring into conscious awareness this idea of who needs to be before what.   Joe: I love that is the university and the who before. What are they separate from your actual coaching piece   Brian: They're   Joe: That you   Brian: All   Joe: Do   Brian: There, it's all kind of integrated,   Joe: Ok?   Brian: So, yeah, my my I would say my one to one coaching is the only thing that's kind of outside of that umbrella. It all fits on the same coaching philosophies. But just with the people I work with one to one, it's it's just inherently different than the other structure that we have. But it's the same philosophies, what you'll know about me and a lot of what we do with the no limits you and everything is this idea that we truly have the ability, if we are aware enough and influential enough to build a life of alignment that can become self-regulating. So for me, I'm very clear on who I am. I'm very clear on where I'm headed. I'm very clear on the impact I want to have, as well as the hierarchy of importance in my life. Family being first. Right. After that, because I'm so clear, everything I do is in alignment with where I'm headed. So when you ask the question, are they all, yeah, they're integrated because they're all holistically apart and in alignment of where we're going to impact a billion lives. How those are translated look a little bit different. But they are all towards the same intent, which is to impact a billion lives.   Joe: So it's the YouTube channel, it's eventually some podcasts on their way. It's but no limits university. There's the Who before what portion of that? There's the coaching, which is one on one with you. Correct. Speaking engagements. When when? I mean, obviously, you still do it virtually, but you're actually going to be live at that bootcamp coming   Brian: Yep,   Joe: Up in   Brian: Yep.   Joe: April. So as that opens up again, I mean, when I watched you on the Growth Now summit, which I attended, your portion of, it was brilliant. I   Brian: Oh,   Joe: You   Brian: Thank   Joe: Know, I   Brian: You.   Joe: Just said, I mean, you're an amazing speaker.   Brian: Thank you.   Joe: You're just not talking to us. But you bring people in to the story.   Brian: Thank   Joe: And   Brian: You.   Joe: I just   Brian: Thank   Joe: Sat   Brian: You.   Joe: There and I was like, oh, this is unbelievable. Like, I would have paid thousands of dollars to   Brian: Thank   Joe: Watch.   Brian: You.   Joe: So it   Brian: Thank   Joe: Was amazing.   Brian: You.   Joe: Did I miss somewhere on your website? Because it's just so much on there. I can't figure out.   Brian: No,   Joe: But   Brian: You   Joe: Is   Brian: Didn't miss you didn't   Joe: It.   Brian: Miss anything. There's going to be new sections actually built on the website, Zoom. Let's put it this way. You listed a lo

If you look at all the bad habits that you've been trying to stop for a decade they all have one thing in common: They are all things you're telling yourself you SHOULD stop doing. What if thinking you “should” is what keeps you stuck? And what if getting in touch with your wants, in a deep way, is the quickest way to get you unstuck?"The want is that very simple impulse that is moving us, that moves us to have a closer relationship with our loved ones. It is a constant pull that leads us all the way down the developmental line. If we allow it, it will take us all the way to freedom."If you look at all of the bad habits you have been trying to stop for a decade, you will find they all have one thing in common. They are all things you are telling yourself you should stop doing. The same is likely true for the things you tell yourself you should be doing more of, finishing a project, going to the gym, calling your mom. What if thinking you should is what keeps you stuck? What if getting in touch with your wants in a deep way is the quickest way to get unstuck? Let's get to the bottom of this. Brett: Joe, I would think this is pretty obvious, but you usually have a unique definition of things. What exactly do you mean by should?Joe: Should is really a mechanism of shame. It is. There's a saying that says that shame is the locks that keep the chains of bad habits in place. Should is like a really bad management technique. Energetically, it's oppressive. Intellectually, it's control-based. Emotionally, it's rigidity and neurologically, it's a threat. If you say to somebody, "You should really do that," there is a threat in that. What's interesting is, that same energy really doesn't happen in certain cultures. When you see, particularly, more indigenous cultures that I've been a part of and seeing that whole should telling people thing just doesn't happen, at least energetically, it doesn't happen. When I mean energetically, I don't mean energetically in a spiritual new age way. I just literally mean the energy in which you are talking to the person. That's what I think it is. You're right. They are the things that keep your bad habits in place. Shoulds are just really ineffective. I'll tell you the story where I learned this. I was like 26 years old and I decided I was going to be brutally honest with myself. I wrote down a list of everything about myself that I didn't want to admit to myself. Then I folded it away and I put it away and I found it like six months, maybe a year later. I went through the list  and I was like, "How many of these things have changed?" Remarkably, most of them had. I was like, "Wow, that's amazing. I did nothing and they just changed," just the recognition of them changed, awareness changed them.Then I looked through all the ones that hadn't changed and to a tee, each single one of them had a very heavy should attached to it. That's when I started to realize that this way of managing ourselves by telling ourselves we should do things is just really ineffective.Brett: To keep it simple around the definition of should, we're talking about the moment that we tell ourselves that we should do something.Joe: Well-- the voice in the head will tell you that you should do something and that's the most obvious thing, but there's also an energetic should that happens. It's almost a muscular response or a neurological response to something and it doesn't always have to have the verbal, "You should do this." You could just reach for the double flourless chocolate cake and you'll just feel that "er" inside of you and that is just a nonverbal should. I think it's really important to see it as both.Brett: What's wrong with controlling ourselves in this way? If these shoulds are pointing us towards the things that we want or don't want to be doing, what's causing that to get in the way?Joe: It's because you've put an extra layer on it. If you're just in the wants, it's an amazing fluid thing. Then when it gets into the shoulds, it creates the threat, like I said and a rigidity. As an example, if I try to control a two-year-old and I have that energy of like "rah", “You will do this, you should do this”. There's one of two responses that happen in any human. If I did it to you right now, "Hey, you should speak differently on this podcast." It immediately creates one of two things in you. Let's do it for the audience here. "You should be listening to this podcast better. You are not paying close enough attention."If I'm treating you like that, there's one of two responses. One of those responses is going to be rebellion. There's just something innate that's like "er". No response. That's not a really effective way to create anything. It's just creating no's. The other thing that it does is you're like, "Oh, you're right, I should." It's this submission. It's not surrender. It's submission. It's like, "I am weak and I will just do what you say." Then you've got a whole bunch of disempowered people and that doesn't really help much either. Especially if you're in a company, you want a company full of empowered people or you want a community full of empowered people, or you want yourself to feel empowered. Every time you're using the should, what's happening is that you are either creating your own internal rebellion, which is why you haven't done the things you've been telling yourself you should do for decades, because you're rebelling against it. Or you're creating a disempowered situation inside yourself. You're creating more of a victim mentality to this voice in your head that's being abusive.Brett: Interesting. What I notice about myself is, that when I think about not telling myself what I should do or shouldn't do anymore, there becomes this fear that I'll just become lazy or some couch potato and I just won't do the things that I should do as I use that word.Joe: [chuckles] Totally, exactly.Brett: What's your response to that? What happens if we stop doing the should, if we stop setting out a path for what we want from ourselves from a perspective of being conscious of the risks and the threats?Joe: Great questions. This is that inherent goodness thing that we've spoken about before, which is basically-- the idea is that you are a lazy slob, piece of shit, just going to pick your ass and live off of other people unless you tell yourself you should do something. You know what I mean? Could you imagine if you thought about somebody else that way? Unless I tell Joe that he should do a podcast, he's just never going to fricking do it. I got to tell him he should do it. It's a nonsensical thing to really think like, "Here I am doing this podcast. Nobody told me I should do it. I wanted to do it." If you think about kids from zero to eight years old, there's no internal should. They're doing all sorts, they're developing crazy amounts compared to any other time in life. They're learning all sorts of things. It's all just because they're following their wants. On one level, that's a really important thing to note. On the other hand, you actually may become a couch potato for a while, which sounds a little weird. The thing is, if you have been under threat for an extended period of time, there's going to be a need to relax. There's going to be a need to recover. If you're going cold turkey on your shoulds, you might actually just need to slow down for a bit. It's not going to be a couch potato. The couch potato thing happens when you burn out and then you tell yourself you shouldn't be burning out. You should stop playing video games. You should stop laying on the couch. You should stop. You should stop. You should stop. Then you really will go into full couch potato mode. If the natural burnout happens with the should, then it looks like depression. There might be a time where you need some more rest, where you need to recover. You see this happen in schools all the time, when there's this thing called unlearning or un-schooling or something like that, where kids are taken out of the school that have burnt out. They take like five or six months and do very little. Then all of a sudden, they learn three or four times as quickly as they were in school. There's lots of studies on this. You're basically saying, "If I don't put myself under threat of a should, if I don't tell myself that I'm bad if I don't, then I won't." It's just not my experience at all. My experience is that the people who are most generative in their life are people who want to do shit, not who feel like they should do.Brett: It sounds like it takes time to shift paradigms of thinking. This reminds me a little bit of a thought experiment--Joe: Hold on a second. That may be true. That may not be true. Don't assume that one though, at least for people listening. For me, turning off the shoulds in the voice in my head was very quick. It didn't take a tremendous amount of time. Once I really just understood, "Oh, this shit doesn't work." If you know that you have a screw gun and every time you use the screw gun it strips screws, you're pretty much not going to use that screw gun. It's not going to take a lot of time to figure that out. If you start telling yourself you should stop using shoulds, it could take years.Brett: That makes sense. This reminds me of the thought experiment of having the voice in your head be a roommate. If you were to go to talk to somebody like a roommate or a friend and they were the person that's just going to tell you what you should do, versus the kind of person that helps you find what you want, then you might either stop going to that person, because it doesn't feel like you're really getting helped, or you might become dependent on them telling what you should do.Joe: Most humans would just move out. Some of us are engineered or programmed to give up our own empowerment for a person like that. That's right. Most of us who had a boss who spoke to us like that should voice in our head, we would quit or we would be miserable. If that “should voice” in your head is really strong and really loud, there is a strong case that you're miserable, whether you see it or not.Brett: As we release ourselves from the oppression of these shoulds and we start listening to what we want and trusting that our wants are inherently good and healthy for us-- let's get into the wants side of this then. How would you define wants?Joe: The want is just that impulse that moves through you, that animates your actions. That is what the want is. The should is just this egoic layer on top of it that slows the whole thing down. Let me explain. You're sitting and you think to yourself, "I should exercise." What's actually happening is there's an impulse and a want to exercise and it shows up. Instead of just like, "Oh, cool," and doing 10 jumping jacks, you say to yourself, "I should go to the gym." Then that just destroys your chances of actually working out or at least very much lowers your chances of working out.The want is just that very simple impulse that's moving us, that moves that eight-year-old, that five-year-old, that three-year-old. It moves the toddler to walk better. It moves the crawler to toddle. It moves us to speak. It moves us to have a closer relationship with our loved ones. It is a constant pull that leads us all the way down the developmental line. If we allow it, it'll take us all the way to awakenings and freedom.Brett: What if I'm listening to my want and my want is to have a big piece of chocolate cake?Joe: That's a really good question. There's one other piece that I think is really important to explain. The thing is that wants are somatically expansive. They're intellectually empowering. The want is very different, if you attach to it or if you don't attach to it. If you attach to, let's say, having that girlfriend Jennifer, then you're in craving, which is different than want. The want is just that impulse. It's just that empowering expansive impulse. If you look at the cake and you're in that empowering expansive place, that's very different, than the way most people want a cake, what they think is wanting a cake, which either this struggle, "I want it, but I don't want it. I want it. I don't want it. I want it. I don't want it." That's not a clean want. There's still some refinement that needs to go there or there's just that unconscious shoving the cake in their mouth and calling it a want. The want is something that feels very expansive. If you look at something like a chocolate cake and it feels very expansive to sit and eat that thing, then yes, follow the want. Because the thing about the wants in general is that you have to follow them to deepen into them. What that means is you want to follow the chocolate cake because you want to have this sense of pleasure. Great, have the sense of pleasure. Then you start finding out what the deeper sense pleasures are.You follow that want home and you find out it has seven more beautiful siblings. If the want is clean, it doesn't matter if it's a short-term or a long-term-- healthy in your mind and your superego, it's far more about allowing that movement, so you can find the next step. You can't want to run unless you've wanted to learn how to walk. You have to actually get to the walking point to have an effective  next level of want. That's how it works is that the wants move us. A toddler, they just want to walk and walk well. Maybe as a toddler, you want to run, but then you can want to play baseball and then you can want to play basketball and then you can want to play basketball really, really well.It's the same thing with our wants. When we start really getting in touch with our wants, then they really transform. For example, the want is, “I want a million dollars” and there's some shame with that and so it's not a clear impulse. Then we're like, "What is that clear impulse?" It's like, "Oh, I want to be empowered."Brett: That sounds very relevant to a career path as well. I heard a story recently from a friend who's a lawyer. Halfway through their first semester, they were like, "Okay, I'm not going to do this. I don't want to be a lawyer. This sucks." The experience was they were like, "These are all the things that I have to do to get to where this path is supposed to put me and it doesn't look fun at all." This person described that they simply stopped caring about what they were supposed to be doing and they started paying attention to what they actually wanted. They were like, "Actually, there's all things that I want to be doing that I could do if I was enabled with this law degree."They started just making it theirs. They took all the classes they wanted, that nobody else was taking and ended up on some trends that they were ahead of their game on or ahead of the trend on as a result of following the way they wanted to be a lawyer and they ended up really loving their career. Joe: That's exactly right. If you're doing your shoulds and you're basically following rigidity, you're following a tightness and you're going to have that kind of tight life. You're going to have a very rigid life. If you're following your wants, your life becomes much more expansive.Brett: I liked what you had been saying about craving as well. It sounds like craving is distinct from wants. Craving is a want that you don't want. It feels like a want, but you really don't want it.Joe: [laughs] Yes, there's a thing about the want. If you just take the want viscerally and you don't try to get there, you don't try to get to the end, if you just take the want viscerally, you can feel it. Let's do this for a second. If you close your eyes and you feel a really deep want inside of you, you have a deep one, not a superficial one, but a very deep one, maybe a want for a deeper form of intimacy or a want for a more expansive consciousness, or a want for more love in your life. You feel that want and you take it in and you don't worry about whether you can get it or not. You don't even think about how to get it. You just feel what it is to want.Wanting is just a feeling like anger or sadness. Just allow that feeling in your system without trying to get to the goal. That experience is really pleasant. It's really quite lovely. To me, the way it works in my system is, it is one of the closest feelings to love, to allow a desire deeply inside of you. I think it's why so many of the the Sufi poets, they talk about desire in this way that they just love desire. This longing-- because that longing is so close to love. It's so close to that expansive acceptance of everything. That's what wanting is. “Now I got to get it. How do I get it? Why can't I get it?” That's craving and that's painful as shit.Brett: This reminds me of a lot of different spiritual traditions that tell us, that craving is a hindrance to freedom. For example, Buddhism's principle of non-attachment or Christianity's warnings about the desires of the flesh. Is that what they mean?Joe: There's those spiritual traditions and then there's the tantric spiritual traditions. People think that they're at odds, but they're really not at odds at all. What's happening there is that people have been beaten out of their wants and so they start turning cravings into an excuse not to want to not allow themselves to want anymore. If you're really deeply closely looking into your own personal experience, the craving is the thing that they're talking about and the wanting, the desire that the Sufis are talking about, the tantric people are talking about, is, there are two different things that are happening inside of your system.Brett: It's interesting. The exercise that we just did about the wanting-- for myself, I was thinking about having a healthy body and being fit and having strength. In feeling the wanting, I was imagining moving my body and having range of motion, flexibility and strength. The moment I started trying to figure out how I was going to get there, then all of a sudden it turned into "Oh, but I'd have to work out." Suddenly, the working out feels like a chore. The actual wanting of being healthy, the way that I was imagining that was actually working out, was the equivalent of moving and using my body.Joe: Exactly. If you just stick with that as a daily practice, how do I want to be in my body right now? Thirty minutes of how do I want to be in my body right now would get you exactly where you want to be in your body. How much more appealing is that? I have to work out today or, “How do I want to be in my body for 30 minutes?” It seems like it's almost no different and it's like worlds and worlds apart.Brett: Let's get this into the context of business and achievement. A tremendous amount of successful executives are deeply attached to winning and succeeding and it seems to be working well for them in many regards. How would you factor that into this?Joe: There's people who tell themselves they should do stuff. Apparently they're pretty successful at it or they're deeply attached. They have a deep craving and they're successful at getting their cravings met. For me, it's pretty simple. There is the intention which is critical. I'm not suggesting to drop all intention in life. We have our intention, we have that want, we have the impulse and that's a really, really important thing. It gives us a north star. It gives us a heading that we move down. To hold that intention is absolutely completely important to getting stuff done in the world of accomplishing stuff in the world. Being attached to succeeding is absolutely a fine way to succeed. It's not the most efficient way to succeed. It is not the most enjoyable way to succeed, but it is absolutely a fine way to succeed. You can really, really get attached to something. You can work at it and you can get there. In fact, it's really important to have some of that if you're going to get anywhere in life and that's the intention. You can have that intention without that craving, without that deep attachment. If you don't have it, you're lucky to get anywhere. That intention is really quite important. If you're going to put attachment on top of that intention, on top of that want, then you are dragging. Then you are like throwing an anchor out and sailing across the ocean with your anchor out. It is not going to be the most effective. The real thing is that intention, like, "What is the context of it? What's the way that you make it most enjoyable? Let me give you an example. If I look at every single CEO that I know who has been very, very successful, their intention wasn't to make money. They weren't attached to making money. What they were attached to was being the best or beating their competition, or reducing carbon in the world, or being the best at customer service. They had some intention, that was past this intention of just succeeding. Their attachment was beyond succeeding. Because if you're just attached to the succeeding part, it's a lot more difficult. If succeeding is something that you have to do to get to the part that you're attached to, then it's easier. The attachment isn't the most efficient way to get to where you want to go, to have that strong attachment. It's definitely not the most enjoyable way to get to where you want to go, but the intention, absolutely critical. Does that make sense?Brett: Yes, totally. It seems like having the intention versus having the attachment to success, the intention makes it easier to pivot. If your intention is to build a company or build a product that reduces carbon in the world, there are many ways to do that. You could start out with one idea of doing it and discover that there's different ways of doing it. One of them just isn't working in the market. It seems like it would be easier to get out of the local optimum or maybe you just have to let go of what you are doing and start something new, which is just really common in any any business endeavor, this idea of pivoting and flowing with reality. If you're really attached to the particular success, then you might be more resistant to make changes, that seem in the short-term to lead away from your goal of success.Joe: That's right. You have your intention out there. That's where you know which way you're going. We'll call that like the goal or the want. That intention is what's moving you in the direction. Then you can have different attitudes towards that goal, towards that want. The attitude could become a should, the attitude could be, "I'm scared of getting to the goal. I'm angry that I don't haven't gotten to the goal. I have absolute faith that I will be there." All of those ways are different attitudes towards having that goal. You're not going to get there without the goal. The most efficient attitude to get to the goal is to be in the want of it, not the should of it. It is to be in the enjoyment of it, not the rigidity of it. That's the more efficient way to get there and to be beyond the goal itself. It's that the goal of succeeding is really just a necessary step to get to your deeper goal.Brett: Give me some more examples of holding an intention without the should.Joe: You're running a company and you have a revenue goal of $100 million. You can hold that as, "I should get to $100 million". You can hold that goal as, "I want to get to $100 million." You can hold that goal as, "I will get to $100 million." You can hold that goal as, "I can't wait until I get to $100 million." The way you hold that goal is going to affect how much energy you have. It's going to affect how rigid you are in it. It's going to affect your ability to be flexible. Then the second level of it is choosing that goal as far as whether you're going to make that the easy goal or the long-term goal. Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, just to get a $100 million?" Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, so that I can build a spaceship to get to Mars"? Are you saying, "I want to get a $100 million, so I can beat the competition"? All of those things are important. It's not the intention or the goal. It is how you approach the goal, how you attach to the goal, the relationship you have with the goal. That's the important piece for efficiency and enjoyment.Brett: Feeling like you should be doing this prescriptive path towards the goal is controlling yourself with threat, essentially.Joe: Correct, that's right. It could work short-term, but it's definitely not going to work long-term.Brett: What makes it that we don't see the inefficiency of our shoulds when we're in them? If it is the case that everything that we don't do in life that we want to do and everything that we do do that we want to stop doing is all locked in place by these shoulds, what makes it so opaque to us?Joe: It's a shame situation. The way that you can look at it is even if you take it up a level for a second, what's the important thing about having the intention? What's the important thing about having the goal? It tells you what questions to ask. If I say to you, "You need to start a company and that company needs to sell widgets to 10 people," then you're going to ask questions to get to that goal. But if I say, "You need to sell widgets to a hundred million people, you're going to ask different questions." You're going to say, "Maybe I have to think about venture capital. Maybe I have to think about private equity. Maybe I have to think about distribution at that scale," that you're not going to have to think about it if you're selling 10 widgets.The goal is important, because it very, very much helps us determine what questions to ask. That's why goals are so important, but what most people do is they put some shame into those goals, tell them they should reach the goals, not that they want to, not that they can, but that they should reach the goals and then all of a sudden those goals become a burden. They become like, "Oh, if I don't do that, I'm bad." That's what makes it hard for us to see the shoulds is, that it makes us think that we're bad. The should makes us think that we're bad and if we think that we're bad, it's very hard to see what actually motivates us. It's the same thing like in wars. If two countries are warring with each other and that whole war has to depend on people thinking the other side is bad. If people look up and say, "You know what, they're just people. We're just people. We're just both trying to get along," the war's going to stop. To have that internal war of should means that you have to think you're bad and that's what makes it so hard to see through the should, to see through the war. What's really strange about it is, that you can see it from a manager 10 miles away. You're sitting there and you see a manager like "You should, you should, you should." You're like, "Oh my God, that's not going to work." That's horribly ineffective. There's been hundreds of management books saying, "Don't do that because it doesn't fricking work," and psychological studies, but we'll do it to ourselves all fricking day long. We will recognize it outside, but we won't recognize it inside.Brett: It's as if the moment we say we should be doing something, the structure of that should is to flatten all of our wants to go do that one thing, because we've prioritized it. If we are routinely doing that thing where we're suppressing our wants to do the thing we should do, then we can't hear or feel our wants anymore.Joe: That's right. The wants, for many of us, are very scary. It's a very scary thing to have a want, because we were taught at a young age not to have wants. We don't have that want because mom won't be happy. You don't have that want because you won't be codependent with that. You don't have that want because blah, blah, blah. A lot of people are told to disassociate from their wants. They're not taught that their wants are amazingly beautiful things, that can guide them in their entire life.Brett: Let's talk more about that. What makes wanting so vilified in our society?Joe: My experience is, that there's a pain that we feel from being rejected in our wants. It's like a deep level of rejection. We're all kind of school kids that got deeply rejected when we asked someone out on a date and so we're hesitant to do it again. Because our wants are this deeply intimate thing, this very vulnerable thing. They are at the core of us. If they've been rejected, we don't want to feel that rejection again. I think that's the internal process. Externally, if you have a whole bunch of people who are codependent or a whole bunch of people, who were told that they were selfish as kids, which really, if you're told that you were selfish as a kid, that really just means that you weren't doing what your mom and dad wanted you to do. If you were told that, then having somebody own their wants is very uncomfortable for you. There's this external world that is uncomfortable with people owning their wants. There's also this external world of people who just can't wait for that person to be owning their wants some more. It's like rock and roll. Back in the day, rock and roll was there. There's these people who shut up and they're like, "I'm going to get whatever I want. I want to do this and do that." There was this group of people were like, "Yes." There was a group of people like, "Devil." That's how it works when you're really owning your wants, especially the earlier wants. The later wants start to refine and start to become more and more beautiful. Then it's a little bit less likely to happen. We all start with the early wants and to own them gets a certain level of rejection, because other people would have to feel their own wants. The thing about wants in general is that it's our human nature to want. You can play this game with friends and after every sentence, just say what it is that you wanted to get out of that sentence.  You will find a want in every single sentence that you speak. Right now, I want to have you guys understand what I'm saying. Right now, I want you to taste the deep pleasure of wanting. There's always this conscious want behind almost every sentence we have, it's such a part of our human nature. We cannot get away from it. All we can do is own it or we can sublimate it. Should is just a way of sublimating it, which is why it doesn't work as effectively.Brett: I'm going to say something right now because I want to participate in this podcast and feel relevant.Joe: [laughs] I want to respond so that you know that I love you and I care for you.Brett: I want to end the pregnant pause. [both laugh] A lot of what you were saying about the societal aspect is that it's uncomfortable for people to feel their wants. Part of what it is, is people have a problem seeing other people want what they want, because that makes them feel the pain of their own wants. The pain of our own wants seems to be linked to something we've discussed on some other episodes, the consequences of wanting, the potential consequence. If I want something, I might not get it, I might have to feel disappointment. I might be judged. I might break this cozy structure of this job that I'm in or this relationship that I'm in, because my wants feel incongruent with that.Joe: The interesting thing about that in general is, that not getting our wants met is not actually as scary as we want or pop psychology would say that it is, because we all have a dozen wants that we haven't had met. It doesn't devastate us all the time. How many people listening to this podcast want to have $10 million more in the bank? it hasn't happened. Didn't devastate any of us. I think it's the exposure, the vulnerability of showing your want and having it rejected. That's the deeper scare.Brett: Admitting that you want $10 million in the bank and people judging you for that, greedy.Joe: Exactly. The amazing thing is when you totally own a want, oftentimes the want goes away almost immediately. I really want $10 million in the bank. If you fully feel that all the way and you're just like, "Oh, yes, $10 million," just feel that want. Oftentimes, it just starts shifting. It's just like, "Oh, what I want is security." Then it's like, "Oh, what I really want is to feel empowered in every situation." If you don't allow yourself to have the want, it can't move through you. It's just like, if you don't allow yourself to get angry, it can't move through you. If you don't allow yourself to get sad, it can't move through you. It's just another emotion that needs to move through you and is so pleasant when it does.Brett: It sounds like on one level, you're saying that it is an impulse and on another level, you're saying it's an emotion. Can you get into that distinction a little bit more?Joe: That's a great question. Let me feel inside for a moment and really see what the distinction is there. It seems like there's this impulse that moves. The way it's working in my system is, there's this impulse to move, to say these words, to be in front of my computer right now, to answer your question. There's this natural impulse. If that impulse meets any friction, then this emotional experience of wanting starts to occur. As this emotional experience of wanting starts to occur, that becomes the feeling. That's the feeling that's there.If I fully feel the feeling, the friction starts to fade. There's the impulse side of the wanting and then there's also the emotional side of the wanting. It's what distinguishes,  “I'm just going to walk to the bathroom right now” and there's no experience of wanting in that process, because there's no friction met. As soon as that impulse meets any level of friction, then there's this experience of wanting. If you fully feel that experience, it turns deeply into a loving expansive experience and then that friction starts to go away.Brett: I want to hear one more story from you, a personal story relevant to how you arrived at all of this.Joe: I'd be happy to share a story, Brett. It's a story of shoulds and wants. When I was earlier in my venture capital career, I had this idea that I really should be making money. It was foreign to me because it wasn't something that was really ever important to me before. It was a combination of a feeling of indebtedness to the investors and also doing a good job and being valuable, but the shoulds started appearing in my life at that point. Then I was sitting in a hammock and I read this news at some point. I remember the time specifically. I read this news, that this company that was formed with almost no money sold for multi billions of dollars and it felt like just an absolute kick in my stomach, just like a whack in my stomach. I stopped and I went, "Oh, where did I feel that for the first time?" I traced it back, not intellectually, but like my entire body traced back that feeling to the first time I felt it. The first time I felt it was trying to please my father as a kid and it was like, "Oh," and it was not pleasable at that time. To please him, at least from my point of view, wasn't possible. I saw that this whole money making activity had nothing to do with actually making money and the should behind it had nothing to do with it. It was this very early should that I had of I should be pleasing my father. That was a very ingrained should. It was at that moment that I was like, "Okay, hold on a second. This doesn't have anything to do with money and it's a should. What do I want? What I really want to do here?" What I realized is, I just wanted to create great cultures for people. I want it to be a part of creating great cultures for people to work in. That changed everything. It changed my approach. It changed my ability to be effective. It just changed everything as soon as I just moved from the should that was driven by an early feeling to a want, which was very present and it was just very immediate. All of a sudden, everything started to open up and flourish in my life in a new way.Brett: Wow, thank you. How do you want to end this?Joe: I want to express a deep gratitude for everybody who's listening, who's dedicated to understanding themselves, who honors me by choosing to be here as part of this experience. My deepest want is a very deep bow to everybody who's listening and to say that I wouldn't be here without people who were bowing to me. I am grateful to be bowing to you. My deep hope is, that you will bow to the people who appear before you.Brett: Joe, thank you for taking the time to help all of us build our culture internally and in our companies.Joe: Thanks for doing the work, man. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.com

My conversation with Brad R Lambert was a complete joy. To see someone so successful living in a town where egos can definitely get in the way of being human, Brad is a shining star. We had a real life conversation involving real life circumstances and in the end, empathy, love, comparison and the want to help others, trumps all. Success has not ruined this young man and he is an example of what is very right with the world and how he plans to love his life and leave his legacy. Enjoy, Joe Brad R Lambert: Producer, Talent Manager, International Speaker & Author Website: https://www.bradrlambert.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradrlambert/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thebradrlambert LinkedIn: https:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradrlambert YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/BradRLambert/ Email: brad@bradrlambert.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Brad, thanks so much for joining me on the show. I really appreciate it. I'm so looking forward to this conversation with you, Matt. Brad: It's great to be here, thanks for having. Joe: So I want to start I always like to get the back story, because I really think it helps people know the person and become more familiar with where you came from and where you are today. And so if you don't mind doing that, that would be awesome. Brad: Oh, of course, I am from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, so I'm actually from the East Coast, was born and raised in the Steel City, spent some time in North Carolina as well in Charlotte. I went to college at NC State, but I started really working, working when I was like 16, 17, 18 years old. You know, I had the traditional jobs of, you know, working at a sandwich shop or a movie theater. Like I worked at a movie theater all through high school and college for side income. And that's why I really fell in love with movies. So we'll get to that. But working working wise, I really found my entrepreneurial self at that age. I was very passionate about sports, so I wanted to be a part of the sports industry in any way, shape or form. Specifically, I wanted to work directly with my athletes, the guys that I cheered on Sundays and Mondays, now Thursdays, you know. So I wanted to provide whatever value I could for those guys. So I was able to get connected to a few of the Pittsburgh Steelers. And at that age, I was, like I said, still in high school so that the age gap between me and a lot of these athletes was pretty significant. So the disconnect was there, but I had to prove myself and build that trust and credibility through my actions. So I learned very quickly how to connect with high level people at a young age, and that was by building genuine relationships and adding whatever value I could to benefit them both personally and professionally. So, you know, simple things like, you know, later on down the road, it would be like, hey, man, I'm in Arizona training. Can you swing by my house and move my car for me? Yeah, dude, I'm around whatever Joe: Right. Brad: You need, you know, or, hey, help me with this massive campaign endorsement deal, whatever. So I had a range of things that I did for these guys. But at the start of it, it was at the the initial beginnings of Facebook and social media. So these guys didn't understand how to utilize social media to benefit themselves. And I had been playing around with it for a while. So I saw the opportunity. So I was able to then bring that knowledge and expertise to the table to help establish these guys on social media, help with content creation strategy, etc.. So through high school, I worked with these athletes and some agencies just do my own thing. Then all through college, I actually worked with a marketing agency while I was at NC State. So I was basically full time with the agency and doing school at the same time. So it was such a great experience because I had, you know, got in at the right time with this agency, proved myself and that I was going to New York City almost twice a month, sitting down with Fortune 500 brands in these, you know, Penthouse suites in New York City. And it was my job to sit there and be quiet, that that's what I was told. And that at the time made a lot of sense. So I would just sit there and soak up the room, all the knowledge, all the exchanges, everything. And a funny nickname I had was these guys were just so used to me sitting there very stoically and just listening. Now they're like, who's this silent assassin? Like, who is this? You know? But I was just following directions, you know. But now, obviously. Joe: And what what year was this? Sorry to interrupt, I just want Brad: No, Joe: To get the timeline. Brad: Not a problem, I mean, freshman sophomore year of college, I was working with this agency, maybe even through junior year, I'm not sure, Joe: Like Brad: But I was young. Joe: What year, what year, like. Brad: Oh, I. She's 20, 21. Joe: That's how old you are. Brad: Yeah, so I was 2009, 2010, maybe, so I was I was young and it was started college for me, so I was, you know, doing school work and then doing work, work and then traveling and doing both. And it was just such a great experience for me because it got me ahead. It put my feet to the fire and challenged me at early age, which I love. Like I'm fearless in that regard. I'll try anything. I'm not afraid to fail. At worst case, I learn one. I'm not good at it, or I learned how to do it a different way. So, you know, I'm not really caught up in those elements of what if I fail or, you know, I'm like, screw it. I'm just going to try. And if I fail, so be it. I'll learn and move on, you know, and be better because of it. So, you know, with that experience, man, like, fast forward to, you know, after school and I moved back to Pittsburgh to work with a sports agency. And then eight months later, I was out in L.A. working with Robert Downey Jr. and his team. So those elements of that experience from high school to college, where I was working with high level celebrities and professionals and entrepreneurs and things like that, it didn't bother me. Brad: So, you know, being in the same room with professional athletes or celebrities or talent like Robert Downey Junior, it doesn't bother me like they're just like us. They're just normal people. They just have high profile jobs and lives in general. So I'm able to build that trust and that credibility because, one, I'm not a fan girling, you know, in front of these guys and to it's it's all business. I want to have a genuine relationship with these people. So it's not about, you know, hey, what can you do for me? It's about what I can do for you. And my scale of giving and receiving is so far skewed and giving. And I'm not complaining. I'm just stating a fact. That's how I live my life. And I'm so happy because of it. The relationships I have are just mind blowing. I mean, just from status and success and, you know, credible people as well, as well as just good people. At the end of the day, that's all that really matters to me, is like you could be the most famous successful person in the world. But if you're not nice or kind to other people, I don't really care to associate with you. And I've had to cut off some big fish, but I don't care. Brad: Like, I really don't want to surround myself with that negativity, that ego or that hate. So my circle is very specific about who I associate with and who I call a friend and family and so on and so forth. So. You know, I moved out to L.A. and got my feet wet in the entertainment industry and going back to what I said earlier about working on a movie theater, I was the guy rep and tickets and cleaning up popcorn and stuff in high school. And I fell in love with that, just going to the movies. And, boy, I can't wait to go back when it's safe to do so. But, you know, that's where I fell in love with all the different genre of film, because before I worked at the movies, I was like, oh, just action, you know? But then that opened up my palate, rom coms and dramas and the horrors and literally everything, thrillers like thrillers. So now I have an appreciation for all different genres of film and that whole process. So coming out to Los Angeles, I wanted to pursue film, TV and entertainment as a whole. I never wanted to be the the actor, you know, BSR. That was not my my goal. I always wanted to be involved at whatever capacity. Brad: So I brought my marketing, my business background out here and that's what got my start. And I really started to find myself out here. After working with Downey, I went to Warner Brothers and I was managing the marketing campaigns for TV, film and catalog titles. So that experience really helped me find the producer in me because I was given task with large budgets. I had to collaborate with different agencies and teams and then flex my creative and business muscles to get stuff done. And that was me managing those very high level campaigns for Warner Brothers. So for me, that was like as a producer, you have to have a good balance of business and creative. And that that was me and I really was like, wow, I can do this. So I actually went on to executive produce my first film, which was a horror film I helped raise. I think it was between three to five million dollars, which I'd never done before. So that was just I was grateful to be a part of that project. And just once again, someone threw me an opportunity instead of being afraid of failing or oh, I don't know how to do this. I was like, give me a few days and let me see what I can muster up. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. Brad: I'll figure it out. And I ended up making a bunch of calls and connecting dots, and we were filming a few months later. So it was just to be a small part of that project and kind of have that experience now moving forward with the other stuff that I'm doing from music videos to commercials to I have a full slate of films right now that I'm working on getting funding for because they're all independent. I'm taking calls with voices and, you know, investors and things of that nature. So once again, that early experience. Pays dividends, you know, so waiting for the perfect time to to try things is not always the best route to take. You know, if you can start early while your competition is not, I think you'll really get an edge for yourself. And I am by no means you know, where I want to be yet. But the progress I've been able to make, and I'm only thirty two. So I'm I'm I feel the momentum. I feel myself coming together and who I am and what I'm about and the people I surround myself with and I'm just grateful for. And they inspire me and they need to be better each and every day. And I couldn't ask for anything more. Joe: That's incredible. So you're going to have to forgive me, because I know the part about this that means a lot to me is helping to educate the audience on how you become the type of person that you are that a lot of people want to be where they have to put one foot in front of the other and actually go through the stuff and not overthink it, not over planet. So I'm going to pull you all the way back to high school because I know what I was like in high school and I just I played soccer. I was interested in girls. I, you know, whatever. I never had the focus that it sounded like you had. So my first question is, did this come from your parents? Was there something that they instilled in you to say, hey, Brad, you can go out and do anything you want, just go and you just going to ask, how Brad: Yeah, Joe: Did that happen for you? Brad: Well, it's funny to ask that is so spot on, you'll laugh, but my mom always said if you don't ask, you don't get. And that has stuck with me from day one. She she's always been my biggest supporter. I love her to death. Obviously, you were a part of the Growth Now summit, but she was there. So Joe: Yeah, that's right, it's. Brad: In one of my she's my biggest supporter and I love her to death. So she's inspired me in so many ways. And, you know, so, yeah, she definitely pushed me. But I would say, you know, I was wired differently, you know, just in a sense of I was a dreamer man. Like, I, I always swung for the fence, whether it was asking out the the hottest girl or, you know, trying to get the biggest opportunity or whatever, you know, I didn't care. I was like, you know, my standards for what I wanted. You know, I didn't want to talk down to myself or limit myself of, oh, I could never accomplish that. Like, what kind of mindset is that? You know, I would say if you're not challenging yourself, you're never going to know what you're truly capable of. And each and every day I'm constantly stepping into something that I never thought was possible. Like I just got approached with an opportunity that wasn't even on my radar, not even remotely maybe down the line, but it was thrown in my face three weeks ago. And I've had to be scrappy and jump on the opportunity. But I wasn't planning on it. But I also was not going to be like, I'm not ready for this or now talk to somebody else. I'm like, I'm going to give it my all and it's either going to happen or it's not, you know, and that's how I look at things. So, you know, I'm fairly confident in that. And that project I was just mentioning, it's come along nicely. But what's cool about that project? I'm not going to dive into details, but I was approached for me. Brad: Get this done, but instead of looking at it like me, me, me, lalala, I was like, you know what, I'm going to bring in some heavy hitters and we are going to win together because including then we'll take away some stuff for me, but everyone will benefit and the project will be that much better because of it. And I want I want that to be very clear, I could have done this by myself as I. I could have done a good job, but it wouldn't be what it is right now if I didn't include these other heavy hitters, so it's having that selflessness to step aside, right. And say, you know what, this is what it is, I'm going to I'm going to bring in people I care about, people who I have a lot of respect for, who are so talented in their own right that are going to really complement what we're doing or what we're trying to do. And man, the the the masterpiece that we've kind of put together for this project, I'm so excited about it. But once again, I could have taken the ego approach to made it all about me. And I was like, no, I'm going to bring in the squad and we're all going to benefit and when because of it. So it's just that kind of approach where it's like, you know. Am I trying to just get it done or am I trying to go overboard and do the best job possible? And a lot of people want one hundred percent of the credit, whereas not many people are OK with 12 percent. Joe: Something great, as opposed to one hundred percent or something semi, you Brad: That's Joe: Know, Brad: Nothing Joe: I mean, right, Brad: Once one hundred percent of nothing. Joe: Right. Brad: I mean, that's that's the reality of it. So a lot of people only want to think of themselves or they want all the limelight and they want all the shine and credit. And it's like, look, at the end of the day, nobody gets anywhere by themselves. And people who say otherwise are either insane or they're egomaniacs to the point where it's like there's no talking to them. They just they are who they are. So for me, it's like I never want to be put in that category. I think ego is one of the biggest turnoffs up in general and to it's one of the biggest inhibitors to success, growth, relationships, period. And being in Hollywood, I'm sure you can imagine the egos that exist here. And it's funny from people who have no right to have egos here have egos. So it is it's fascinating to me where, you know, I'm from Pittsburgh. It's a blue collar town. It's a hardworking town. It's a good town. The people are kind. They're giving, they're generous. And, you know, so coming out here, I was very much an alien in a way because I didn't subscribe to the norms of L.A. and the behavior and the competition and the wild, wild West nonsense. And, you know, I didn't get along with people who who played that game because I'm not going to play that game. I'm not going to cut somebody's legs off to to win. That's just not who I am. So that's what allowed me to kind of separate myself and find myself and find my lane. Brad: And, you know, there are consequences to your actions and how you treat people. And in this business, they always come back around the person you screw over. Now, I guarantee you you'll see them in five years. That's just how the business is. Unless you leave the business because it's not for you and you fail, you're going to see him again. So you need to treat everyone with respect and kindness. You may not like them, but that's not a requirement, right? Like there are a lot of people I don't like in this business, but I still will treat them with respect and kindness. I don't have to like them. You know, I wouldn't have to be friends. We can be acquaintances, professional. Relationship, but aside from that, like we're not going to be grabbing a beer, watching football, like that's just, you know, that's not. But everybody, once again, they're still like this with so many aspects of their life, just like this, where you need to widen. That view and why, in your mind and your horizon to the possibilities of not just what you're capable of, but looking at situations differently, like I try to plan five to 10 moves ahead if I do or say this, this, this and this is going to happen, you know? So it's it's it's mental chess in a way of understanding how, you know, things move, how things operate, how people move and how people operate and everybody's different. Brad: But if you can understand, you know, interpersonal communication and kind of get a good read on somebody, you can understand the ebb and flow of conversation and their actions. People are very stuck to patterns. They behave a certain way and they rarely change. So if you can identify that pattern and how they move and how they speak and things like that, you're able to kind of ride the wave in a way of like, this is how this person is. I got to kind of change chameleon wise to to be able to deal with it and make it successful because we can't just stay the same core values. Yes, stay the same. But in regards to, like, how you communicate with certain people, some people, you got to have the most amount of patience in the history of time. Other people, it's like it's so chill, like it's a chill work environment. Whatever other people you have to really kind of be on them to to make sure they're getting whatever tasks done. And so everybody's different. But you have to you can't just stay the same person with everybody. You have to understand that each each everybody's different and you have to kind of change to best suit that like a puzzle piece, because if you don't. That's where the issues happen. You know, you're not the way I want you to be, Joe. So we're going to have problems Joe: Ok. Brad: Like that. That's not how it works. But put a lot of leaders are like that where it's like you don't fit what I want. You're out of here. You're not a brainwashed zombie. You're out of here. And trust me, I've had so many experiences like that where it's like if you have an opinion, if you're your own person and it's the way the business is, it's the wild, wild West. And I will say this, those people make it far very quickly, but long term, you know, fall on their face. Joe: So and that's what attracted me to you in that that Growth Now summit. I heard you talk and then I started looking at all that you've accomplished at the ripe old age of 30 to Brad: Thank Joe: Like Brad: You. Joe: I was like this. He is the most humble person that I've seen with the accolades that you have. And I just was like, got to have to talk to this guy because I just turned fifty nine. And there's many things I want to do with my life. I didn't do all of the things the way. I mean, I don't like I don't want to say regret, but I definitely feel like I have some regret because I just didn't if I don't know, I've always had really high goals. Did I work as hard as I should have on all those things? Probably not. So I take all of the blame. But I just think that I want to surround myself with people that even now, like, I could just say, well, you know, it didn't work out. I'm just going to just going to do it constantly. I think a big motivator for me with this podcast when I started it almost a year ago was I want to be around people that are successful, people that through me and these conversations can spread the word of what they did to make things like this happen. And so, yeah, you you definitely had to be wired different. The fact that a in high school, you were doing all that you were doing and then again in college, college is like, wow, I'm finally out of the house and I'm just going to I'm going to do as little work as I can and I'm going to have a great time. Brad: Look, Joe: It's just Brad: I Joe: It's. Brad: Don't think I went to one party in college, I'm Joe: I Brad: Not Joe: Know Brad: Getting. Joe: It doesn't surprise me. It sounds Brad: I Joe: Like. Brad: Just I had no interest like the the one to one exchanges and the nonsense now I had fun in my own way, but like I just that college, like it just didn't it didn't appeal to me. But I was also so busy on the other things that I was trying to do. And I saw the potential and the benefits of the things that I was doing. I actually stepped away from school for a year because that marketing agency opportunity was thriving so much. Where I'm in these boardrooms at Fortune 500 companies, I'm like, why am I still in school? You know, like and so I took a year off and I went all in on this marketing agency and the experience I got out was crazy. And I ended up finishing school online. But it was like that's the kind of real world experience that, you know, I had a conversation with the young lady the other day in Canada. And she's like, how do I how do I get to where you are? And I was like, what are you doing right now? You took the time and the effort to to follow up with me on LinkedIn. And we finally found a time to talk. And I'm giving you 15, 20 minutes to talk. And however I can help you, I'm going to do it. And she was just very laser focused, right, on what she wanted to get out of this conversation. And I was like, your hustle, your focus. Like, that's going to get you really far. Brad: And now you just have to act on it. You can't worry like it's like sales. You're going to knock on two hundred doors and you might get one or two answers. But the second you're about to quit that next door might be the one that changes your whole life. So that's why it's like you just got to keep going. You've got to ignore like there are things where I have an opportunity, biggest opportunity ever and I'll just like I'll do what I need to do. But then I move on. Like, I'm not waiting or dwelling, I'm just like next, you know, that's not something that I, you know, I don't want to waste time because it's out of my hands. Once I do what I need to do, I hand it off and then what will be will be right. So I'm not going to sit here and and be kind of bent out of shape of, oh, my gosh, I haven't got one. Yes. Like I've got so knows I've lost count. But that is what we need to do. Like we have to persist, we have to keep going. And that's something that a lot of people aren't like. Some people can't handle failure and I get it. But at the same time, like you're capable of more than you think, you just have to rewire how you look at things. Once again, it's not you're a loser, Joe. You failed. It's that opportunity wasn't meant for you. And what did you learn out of it? Well, that changes the whole game like that, I don't feel like a loser, right, because I did it when, you know, when I win, I learn. Brad: When I lose, I learn. But I don't look at it is like, wow, I failed, you know, just like look. And if anything, it's another chip on my shoulder, right. Somebody passed on me. The opportunity didn't work out, whatever. But like a great example is what's right behind me right here. This this poster of Avenger's, a game that's signed by the entire cast. OK, I'm a huge nerd. I love pop culture. I love film. I love TV. I love comics. I grew up with these characters. So to be able to work with a guy like Downey, you can imagine how awesome that was. So I wanted to work for Marvel after Downey. I went to Warner Brothers and at Warner Brothers, I was working on all these IPS and campaigns and titles that I loved. And I was like, this is so much fun. I would die to, like, go to Disney and do this for Marvel. I have to do this for Marvel. So I tried. I tried it, tried even it down. I tried to get a job at Marvel and I came second place. And then when I was a WB, I had, I think, two tries where I came second place. And I was just like, oh, it's not it's not working, you know? And a lot of people would have just given up on that dream. It's never going to happen. Brad: I'm never going to work for Marvel, never going to work for Disney. It's just not meant to be. All right, fine. So I'm going to create my own path. That's why I did I was doing my own thing. I was producing, managing, consulting, and I brought value. To Marvel and Disney put this collaboration together with one of the biggest artists on social media, and he designed this incredible artist, so freakin talented, but the goal of working with Marvel and Disney right there. So I went from failing multiple times, not giving up and then working on the biggest movie of all time, being a very small piece to that campaign. And that's something like like I said, it's signed by the entire cast. And that's a living reminder every single day where it's like. You know, I got this tattooed on my arm, if you say a tattoo right here says whatever it takes and that's a line from Avengers and game, whatever it takes to get it done, whatever it takes, make it happen. And that's that's right there, Sam, with this one, like it's like I, I don't set limitations for myself and I will fail constantly, but it's, you know, getting hit, getting back up and keep going and trying again. And what's the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Right. So when something's not working, you got to create a new path or try something else. And that's what they did. So to fail as much as I did trying to get that job with Marvel and Disney, those opportunities didn't work out. Brad: I went out, did my own thing, created my own path and ended up working on Avengers and being part of that marketing campaign. And then I followed that up with working on Spider-Man Far From Home with Sony Pictures. And I grew up with Spider-Man. So that was an unbelievable experience for me. So once again, like chasing your passions, adding whatever value you can around those passions and staying consistent and persistent with that approach. And that was my goal, like Disney, Sony, Universal. What value can I bring to your campaign to make it the best campaign ever? Like and that's how I looked at things. I look at things from a broad standpoint of, OK, there's an opportunity here. I'm going to try to fill that hole with Zouliou. You know, but a lot of people are like, I need you to tell me. What you need to do, as I know you've got to be scrappy and self starting in that regard where it's like. I followed this artist for so long, I know I knew what he was capable of, I knew he had a huge following. So working with WB, I knew I paid creative agencies a lot of money to create assets for campaigns and then they would deliver the assets and that would be it. So I was like, why not pay an artist who has almost a million followers? To do art with a demographic that's your target market, right, so the value there was way more than what it would be with a creative agency. Brad: The value was the creative agency doesn't have a million followers that they'll post and push it out. So not that Disney needs the extra million followers, but if you're going to pay for it either way, why not be smart about it and get the most bang for your buck? And that was the approach I brought creatives influencers talent to the table who could add a unique twist to these campaigns where, you know, working on them as much as I did for two years would be a lot of the content looks the same, the same countdown images, Meems, quote, images, static images, trailers, same thing. So what can we do to make it different? That's how you make it different. So it's finding those opportunities and trying to be self starting in a way of I recognize talent. I'm going to go out and get that talent and do whatever I can to help that person. So win win. Right. And that's, you know, I'm going to bring value, you're going to bring your talents and we're going to win together, that's it. You know, and that. It's that simple, but a lot of people once again, they want all the light, they want all the credit, and those are people that are really shooting themselves in the foot because at the end of the day, that's where ego comes in. And once you get sucked into that big fat ego, you're done. Joe: Yeah, again, on that that call that we did or that video that you were on, I was like, how is this guy so humble and down to earth? And it was a total attraction to me because I mean it from my heart. I grew up just a couple hours north of New York City, and I spent a good 12 years there as a musician. And I've been to L.A. doing auditions where I was the guy from out of town. And I've seen the egos on both sides of the coast and I get it. And for you to to be the way you are and be in this business for as long as you have been and still you are who you are, that's that's a you know, you should pat yourself on the back for that because that's a big thing. So. Brad: Well, I a big thing is, you know, your reputation is everything. So when you let ego come into play. You're really once again shooting yourself in the foot and your reputation will take a massive hit because of it, because at the end of the day, man like especially in a business like this, like nobody cares, like they want whatever it is done, they don't care how it gets done, just get it done. You're not as important as you think you are. That's just the way it is. So, like, why have an ego? And plus, I'm not where I want to be. You know, there's a million people better than me. Like, that's just around. I'm 32 years old. You know, how can I possibly have an ego when there's a guy like Elon Musk walking around? Right now, I'm serious, Joe: I know. Brad: I'm serious. It's like, you know, how can I have an ego when you know a guy like Gary Vaynerchuk taken over the world? You know, like but Gary is a friend, you know, so like, where's the ego come into play? To me, it's like I have so much more room for growth and learning and just continuing to grow in that regard where it's like, how could I possibly have an ego? But I also don't want the people who I'm friends with in sixth grade to be like, wow, you really turned into a jackass. I don't want that, you know? But, you know, the guy who is on the growth now said the call was my best friend in elementary school and middle school. He was in that room. And I hit him up afterwards and thanked him for I didn't know he's going to be there, but he was there and he he thanked me profusely for acknowledging his existence in the room. And he was like, you're a good dude. My best friend from elementary school and middle school Joe: It's crazy. Brad: Just said I was a good dude after all the time had passed all the experiences I've had, but I'm not perfect. You know, I make mistakes, but it's never done in a I'm better than you, you know, way. I just I don't believe in that. We may have a bad exchange. You may catch me on a rough day. We're human, but there's a difference between. A mistake and an exchange and just being a pompous ass, right? Huge difference. And there's if you look hard enough, you'll see the difference. But I try so hard to make sure every interaction that I have is a good one. And it's not just about. I got to make myself look so cool in this chat. It's like I want Joe to really enjoy this conversation and have good things to say about me, hopefully on the end. That's my goal. But if I'm here like Joe, you are a worthless dude. Like, I mean, come on. Like, it's just like Joe, you wouldn't understand. I'm in the big leagues, Joe: Right, Brad: Bro. Joe: You're right. Brad: It's just I don't it drives me crazy because I've experienced it so much with with egos on the people that I've interacted with. And it's such a turnoff where you're just like you won't even look at me in the face or you won't talk to me enough to talk to me through somebody else. I just like I don't care. I don't care who you are. I don't want to deal with that. I'm a human just like you. You're in a high profile position. That's the only difference. That's it. So, yeah, I mean, there's nothing to have an ego about. Like I'm nowhere where I want to be. Yet I've done a lot of great things I'm grateful for and and I'm continuing to build in that regard. But yeah, there's there's absolutely if you're making others feel little. Unless then you're a pretty shitty person and I don't ever want to be a person that makes somebody else feel less than ever. Joe: Well, like I said, I could tell it's just so natural for you and I'm thrilled to be here with you. So I again, I'm going to drag you back to my school. So forgive me, but I want to understand what the pivot was from you starting out with sports, which seemed like a natural thing for you to do because it's such a heavy sports town. But you so you did this, but you also mentioned that you've worked in a movie theater. So was your first love, the whole movie thing. But sports, how did you transition and are you still involved in sports? Brad: Yes, I'm so very involved with with my guys specifically on the Steelers and the Penguins, I want to I want to be a person of value to those guys, whether it's personally, professionally, whatever they need. Like I said, hey, move my car. Hey, you know, how do I get this done? Help with an endorsement deal, whatever it is. So I I'm very much still involved with sports. I love sports, but I'm a two sided coin, right. When one side sports, you have those entertainment. So I dabbled in sports initially. That was my my first thing. And I got to the point where I was like, man, I'm like 24, 25 if I don't pursue this other thing. I might miss my window, and that's when I. Had the opportunity to move out here and work with Downey and his team, and that's where I went heavy into entertainment. So but what's great about entertainment is like you could very well pull sports into it, like sports is under the entertainment umbrella. So I don't really look at them separate. Obviously, I started in sports initially, but, you know, once you're in entertainment, fashion, gaming, TV, film, music, sports, I mean, my goodness, you could everything falls under that. Brad: So it's that's what's exciting to me is when I was, you know, in a smaller town like Charlotte, I knew a lot of people. And then when I went to Pittsburgh, I really. Built a lot of crazy relationships, and once again, this is not networking, I want to be very clear, it's actually building genuine relationships with people, whether they're not famous or famous, like it's it's the same. It's consistent, but it was more of like, how can I build how quickly can I build in a bigger city like Pittsburgh? Right. And eight months I i from the top of the Steelers organization to the to heavy hitters and the Penguins organization to, you know, Lynn Swann like huge, huge names. And we're talking like personal relationships with these people. And that showed me, like, if I ever go to a big city and live in New York or L.A., I could really get stuff done. So when I came out to L.A., that was that was my goal. What can I accomplish in L.A.? Who can I get connected to and build relationships with and what could we accomplish together? Right. And I moved out to L.A. and started with Robert Downey Jr. and Joe: So, Brad: Then from there. Joe: Yeah, so before we go there, because I want to ask how that happened, and I think it's it's driving my mind crazy because I want to know how someone gets their first gig out there in a sense. And I'm not sure if that's true, but if that is true, then I really that's incredible. But with the sports figures in Pittsburgh, when somebody hears you tell this story, it's like, well, what does that mean? Ditcher, did someone in your family know somebody and allowed you to stand on the sideline what they were like? How do you get in front of these people? What's what's the connection that you used to kind of stack on all these people Brad: Yeah, Joe: That you would meet? I mean. Brad: Well, stacking on is a good way to put it, because at the end of the day, we are our own brand right now from me, starting at 16, 17, 18 years old and working with professional athletes and the Steelers. I've been around that organization since like 2005, 2006. Consistently, it's twenty twenty one, so that's a long time being around the team, the players, the ownership, the coach like. Joe: But how how did you do that, like what Brad: Well, it Joe: Does that mean, because I am Brad: Once Joe: In Brad: Yeah, Joe: Love, I have never seen it. So I go to the Cardinals games, Brad: Once Joe: But. Brad: You get once you get connected to one and back when I got connected, it was I literally was able to connect through the phone book like it was that kind of scrappy thinking that I was able to at the time. Phone books were still a thing and one thing led to another, got connected to somebody else and that was it. But, you know, now it's Deanne's or introductions through contacts, but you have to be able to introduce yourself and a wow manner. Right. So I've been building my brand since 16, 17, 18 years old. So when I run into someone or I'm at an event or I'm at training camp and I have the opportunity to say hello, I'm not saying, hey, can I have your autograph Joe: Right. Brad: Or hey, can I have a picture I can't write? Brad Lambert, you know, I've been around the team since 2005. I would love to connect any way I can help. Let me know. I mean, what more could you ask for that? That's an elevator pitch. Home, right? Right. So that was how I handled it, and it was like, yeah, I'm friends with Willie Parker, I know Hines and all the guys, you know, and, oh, OK. You know, once you have that credibility where you can attach your name to somebody else in a way that I'm friends with so-and-so, that wall of defense goes down. Goes away. Immediate because a lot of people are like, who are you and why are you talking to me when you say something like that? That wall comes down now like, oh, what's up? You're just a normal person. You're not a crazy fan. Right. And that is how you separate yourself by not acting like crazy fan. And the best example I could give is I went to training camp a lot back in the day and I used to bring a bunch of my friends. We would go and we would be on the field because of my relationships, be on the field during practice, which is amazing. And then after practice, everyone would scatter and get as many photos and as many autographs and we'd all come back like half hour later when everybody left. And would you get what you get? How'd you get that? And everyone would be like, Oh, I got so-and-so this, not this and that. And then Bobby Brown, would you get I was like at zero. No, like you had 30 to 40 minutes to get as many photos and autographs as possible on the field with all these guys. And you got zero. I was like, yeah, but I got seven phone numbers. And they're like, oh, Joe: Yeah. Brad: That's how different we were wired, right priorities, man, like I'll get autographs and photos later when I'm hanging out with them at their house. I don't care about that. Like, I want to build a genuine relationship. And you're not going to do that when you start by asking for photos or autographs. It's just not going to happen. So like Downey, for instance, I've known him for six years. But I didn't get my first picture with Downey until like 20, 19 Christmas right before the pandemic, I was at his Christmas party and it was like a five year. Window was like, it's been five years, like, can I get a photo? I would love to just close that Joe: Right. Brad: That loop. And and he was like, get over here, man. Of course, like that. Don't be ridiculous, you know? But once again, if I the first time I saw him, I ran up and was like, can we get a selfie like that? That's so annoying. The first time I saw him, I walked up to him and I introduced myself and I said, thank you for the opportunity. I look forward to working with you. You know, but Joe: Yeah, Brad: That's Joe: Yea. Brad: That's the difference. Joe: And you're very wise for your years of being, because I I was that person because I was so starstruck as like I wanted to be this touring drummer, that was my goal. I went to music school, which that's another question I'd have to ask, but I can't forget that. I have to make sure we talk about that quickly. But so anytime I went to see someone, I don't think I was obnoxious, but I was definitely starstruck. And it was it wasn't I never was thinking of, hey, I know you're in town. If there's anything I can do for you while here, let me know. Like, if I just said that whatever and walked away, that would have been. But instead, I know that I gushed and Brad: It's Joe: So Brad: Normal. Joe: And so I wasn't wired like you. But my it's changed for me a lot. So even where I am now, now it's just like, listen, I'm just trying to do good in the world and the people that can see that through me. Great. And so things have really changed in the last, I would say, a couple of months for me just because I changed my mindset. And it's a shame it took me this long to figure it out, but at least I figured it out before it's too late. So. Brad: Everybody has their own their Joe: Yeah, Brad: Own time and Joe: Yeah. Brad: Their own their own path, their own way of living. I mean, it's not a competition. I mean, I you know, my way of thinking wasn't always right, you know? I mean, it's just the reality of it. I missed out on a lot because of the way I was. I've been wired and I wouldn't change it. But it's not all rainbows and unicorns, you know what I mean? It's it's just it's tough, you know? So it's I don't want you to or anybody, for that matter to think, oh, I don't think like Brad, I failed, you know, or I waited till I was fifty nine years old to get this. It's like it's not a competition like, you know, so I don't I don't subscribe to that kind of stuff. But yeah, I mean it was the relationships are what matter. And when you deal with high level people, they don't really have genuine relationships. Because they're high level people, a lot of people want stuff, so when you come at it almost obnoxiously like, what can I do for you? How can I help? They're like, wow, this is refreshing. You know, how are you? Like, how are you? Like, who's asking then that, you know? But that's the difference, you know? And that's at the end of the day, these are normal people and they just want to feel normal sometimes. Brad: And that's what I try to give. You know, it's like let's go back to the house and play that. And till our eyes bleed, like, that's that's the kind of like normalcy I want. These guys, most of them are young man, like twenty, twenty one years old. I'm the old man now at thirty two when I was 17, 18 when I first met these guys. Now I'm the old guy so like you know, but that, that trust that I have and you know, just try to help and give them opportunities and keep them away from certain things early in their career. You know, some of them don't want to hear it. And I've lost relationships because I've been brutally honest from a professional standpoint of like, yo, this is not this is not a good move for your brand and your business moving forward. And some of them like see you later. OK, but at the end of the day, it was all love. You know, I didn't get anything out of it. So it's it's been honest and transparent and truly having their best interests in mind. And just anybody I work with, I try to have really, you know, care and show that I care. Brad: But the one thing, too is, is empathy is so important. A lot of people aren't empathetic enough. They don't look at people and read that they're sad or they're stressed or they're anxious or whatever and then react accordingly. They only care about themselves and what they want out of a situation, and that's it. But you have to acknowledge these things and you have to care about how other people are feeling, because if you can identify. Oh, wow, look at look at, you know, Joe, he looks like a little down today. I'm going to hit him up, you know, makes a difference. I've had people on Twitter just. Oh, my life sucks, I'm having a horrible day, getting out of bed is hard. I call him. How are you? Talk to me. I'm here. I send my message, hey, sound good vibes. I'm here if you need to talk. You're not alone, your loved. Whatever everybody's going through, man. But if you just say about yourself, you know, and one person that I did do that to recently hit me up like that meant a lot to me. Because I was struggling. And that little text that you sent me a text, Joe, you know how long it took me? Joe: Right, right. I Brad: But Joe: Think Brad: Once Joe: You Brad: Again. Joe: Brought that up on the call on Brad: Yeah, Joe: The summit. Yeah. Brad: But that's that's a difference, it's like a lot of people think they're too important or too busy, too arrogant, too ignorant to do these little simple things, or in reality, if everyone did a little extra, the simple things that we overlook or don't want to take the time to do the world would be a much kinder, happier place. But that's the issue. And that's like, you know, naive of me to think. But I'm trying to make that the norm. I'm trying to show people that those little things that you do mean something and and it matters, especially when everyone's dealing with a global pandemic. So, you know, I think hearing that someone appreciates you or like you reaching out to me after the event like that was awesome. That made my day. Like anybody who wants to hear me speak, I'm like, wow, OK, cool, thanks. You know, so it's but that's it's the little things, you know. And a lot of people don't care to acknowledge those things or give those little things that you do. And I think that's where the problem lies. Joe: Yeah, I agree with you so much. OK, so you get on with college, you what is the catalyst in the plan like what groundwork was laid so that you literally could move to L.A. and hit the ground running? And not only that, but work with somebody like Robert. Brad: From a very young age, I was trying to surround myself with people who I admire and who inspire me. That's like just not because I wanted anything other just to be a part of their lives, like and that's what I constantly did since I was young. And I build genuine relationships because of that. Like, I it's not I need something better. And when I don't get what I need, I'm now like, that's not what we're talking about. People like we're talking like. And her relationship, genuinely, you're not expecting anything if you get something great, hallelujah, good for you. But if you don't get something that doesn't mean you're bailing and you're out of there and you never talk to that person again, that that's not a genuine relationship, that that's what you're doing. Period. So I've constantly tried to surround myself with people who I admire, they could be massive celebrities, they could be professional athletes, it could be someone who works at the grocery store down the street. They're a good person. Or they could be an artist who's just so ridiculously talented. It blows my mind like I don't have ulterior motives. I just want to surround myself with amazing good people, period. So with that mindset, my network is pretty robust and I have some pretty incredible people in my life. And I got connected to someone and he opened the door for me and that that was it. That's how I got to Downey at. Joe: When did you move? What year was that? Brad: A 15, I think, yeah, because I've been in L.A. six years, so it was February Joe: So Brad: 2015. Joe: And when you moved out there, you literally had this gig ready, you hit, you just landed, got an apartment or whatever, and you started working with Robert. Brad: Right away, hyp. Joe: That's incredible. Brad: But that's but that's that's an example of some of the amazing things that can happen when you lead with kindness, you add value, you build genuine relationships, and when all those things add up and it gets to a point where people are like, all right, you've done so much for me, what can I do for you? You know, like it. Unless they're the worst type of person, they're probably going to say that to some extent. Like I said it last night to somebody, somebody has helped me out with a project like what can I do for you? How can I help you? Any phone calls, emails, whatever. I'll do what I can. No promises, but I'll try to help you. It's just human nature, like we all have the ability to help someone, but if you don't ask, right, going Joe: And. Brad: Back to the start of this conversation, you don't ask, you don't get. So that's that's the whole thing where it's like, you know, some people are too afraid to ask. Some people are too in their head about asking. But it's like if you ask them, then they feel more comfortable to be like, you know what, they're really struggling with X, Y, Z. Like that young lady who reached out to me on LinkedIn. Can I talk to you for 15 minutes, please? Who the hell am I? Yeah, of course we did it, you know, and she emailed me in the next morning. It was like I'm so driven and motivated from our conversation of email. Two hundred people today. The good. You've get it. You know, but that's the. I want to have an impact. I want to be a source of positivity and kindness and, you know, people are going to talk crap about you one way or another, but make them look really stupid to talk crap about someone who's doing that kind of stuff. Right. Like, are you seriously having this conversation about that person right now? All the all that they're doing? Really. OK. Good for you, but that's that's the thing, it's everybody's going to have their opinions, they're going to hate, you know, the peanut gallery is very large, but that's the thing. It's like those people are unhappy with themselves, their lives, and they feel better about themselves by talking crap about other people. That's not my thing. I don't do that. I don't care to do that. But those people are broken and hurting in their own rights and they'll do what they do. But you can't let it get to you. You got to keep just doing your thing. But once again, if you're meeting with kindness and value and you're trying to make the world a better place and make somebody's life better, you know, I've got messages like you saved my life. Joe: You just need one of those and then you go. All right. I know what I'm doing. Brad: But that's Joe: I'm doing. Brad: That's my that's like some bigger people would look at this podcast, be like, this isn't Joe Rogan, why am I going to waste my time? It's like if I impact one person, even if it's you, Joe, with this conversation, it was worth my time. Joe: Well, it's so funny because you're probably going to be the only guest in this whole year that I've done this, that I was going to ask, what made you say? Brad: That's it, like I look at this, I try to do as many of these as I can and yeah, I'm busy, whatever, but like once again, what's 15, 30 an hour to to do a podcast that will live forever on the Internet. So I could impact someone ten years from now or I can impact someone today like, like that. That's the once again broader. Mindset, looking at the big picture, because I have people from different continents, like places I've never even heard of who found me on social media, who follow me, and then literally what one guy in particular is his name's Yassir and he listens and watches all my stuff. And then he sends me these beautifully written messages of his thoughts and all of these, like what he got out of it. And I'm just I just sit back every time, like, wow. Like this guy who I've never met before and I'm in a place I've never been to like. We're not connected other than social media. He found me and he's a he appreciates my stuff so much that he takes the time every single time to listen and watch my stuff when it comes out. So he watches and he'll he'll hear me talking about him and stuff. But Joe: It's Brad: That's Joe: Called. Brad: But that's like that's why I do this man. It's just like he's so impacted by what I have to say. And that's a mind blowing thing to say. Like for me, like I'm just trying to be honest and tell my story and hopefully it helps impact somebody else in a positive way. But but when you really get in that group of hearing from people and and you motivated them or you inspired them, like I spoke at Columbia College, Hollywood about a month ago and some of the responses afterwards from the students were like, you gave me the confidence to pursue my dreams. Joe: That's powerful, Brad: Are you kidding Joe: Yeah. Brad: Me? Like like how selfish would I have to be as a human being to not do what I do? If that's the response I'm getting, even if it's one person. Joe: Yeah, it's Brad: How Joe: Incredible. Brad: Idiotically selfish is that, but once again, I'm not here saying, Joe, if you do, you'll be a billionaire. Like I'm not that person and I'm not trying to hawk a class at you or get you to pay like I'm trying to. I'm trying to teach foundational skills that have been completely lost in this generation, completely lost and GenZE. They're even worse, like they have it off worse. So I'm trying to fix this and also instill this into the up and coming generation. I'm even writing a children's book right now to instill these core values at a very young age. So it's I'm trying to trying to get this back into where the world was. You know, it's not such a hateful and nasty place. Like I had someone said to my dad the other day and just say the nastiest shit to me. And I was just like I was like, how am I going to respond to this? And I responded with thank you so much. I appreciate the love and with like a flex emoji. Right. And that person laughed with a bunch of emojis and I haven't heard from them again. So I gave them the attention they were looking for. And I also probably shook them to their core because they wanted a shouting match. And instead I like self-destruct in their brain because I hit them with that. OK, you know, I've had people do that where I hit him with kindness, kill with kindness, kindness to do that, and you do that and they're like, oh my gosh, I love your content. I'm like, well, what happened to Joe: Yeah, Brad: The Joe: Right, Brad: You know, or they follow me right after. Joe: Right. Brad: They follow me right after, like, oh, my gosh, you know, but that's that's like once again, these people are just broken, you know, and they they're hurting. And I feel for them and I hope they can find their happiness in their path. And but it's not by being hateful and nasty to other people. If if you're actively going out of your way to sabotage and bring other people down or make other people feel less than you are broken. And you need to do a lot of soul searching because whatever you're doing is not working, and I promise you, you're not going to get to where you want to go by going down this path, you may feel really powerful and cool about yourself, but at the end of the day, nobody else thinks you're cool and nobody else likes you. That's the reality of Joe: Yeah, Brad: It. Joe: It's just so I want to respect your time, because we're getting close and I literally could go on and I have so much that we never got to, but I want to thank God so much. We didn't get to I want to talk about your book because you mentioned it on the summit. And so is that something different than the children's book or. That is the book. Brad: Now, that's that's the book I'm starting with a children's series partnered with a phenomenal artist in Sweden that I found years ago on social media. Once again, I try to surround myself with people who I admire and who inspire me. I found her work two years ago, and I knew from the onset of finding her, I was like, there's there's something there and I'm going to figure it out. She's just phenomenal. And here we are right now, and she's doing all the illustrations for the book. So it's just one of those things where it's, you know, she'll love, support other people and good things happen. And if they if something doesn't happen, you're still OK because you're connected with that person and you have those conversations and the happiness exchanges, that that's what makes life worth living, you know, and that's a lot of people want the transactional stuff. And yeah, it's great. But at the same time, it's not everything. You know, so many people have the transactions, but they have no soul. So what's what's the point of that? Joe: How much can you share about the book, like whatever Brad: Yeah, Joe: You want? Brad: It's pretty straightforward, I mean, it's a picture book for kids, so it's a very entry level in that regard. I want to kind of put it in the same category as like, you know, a Dr. Seuss reading level. Like, it's very basic. It's not a crime book, but it is very basic in that sense. You know, I'm not a professional writer or anything. So for me to put my words on paper and do this is once again, I'm stepping out of my comfort zone to do this because I feel like I could hopefully potentially impact someone in a positive way. So I've created this little universe with, you know, my my dog is the main character champ, and he's a boxer and he's my my child. I love him to death. So he's he and his friends are going to be teaching is valuable lessons to whoever reads the book and the first books about kindness. So it's going to be champ giving examples of how to be kind. And we're talking basic stuff like helping someone in need, you know, complimenting someone, defending someone in front of a bully. Very basic stuff. No one's asking you to move mountains. Basic stuff. Give someone a gift. Like it's just basic stuff. And that's, I think from that digestible level of those basic tasks at a young age, people will get that compliment. Someone I like your shirt. Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. You know, or. Oh, my my kite is stuck in a tree. I wish someone would help me. Oh, got you on there. You know, but that's the thing man. A lot of people look the other way and that's that's the problem. So if I can you know, the artwork she's doing is so incredible. It's like I compare it to like the likes of Pixar and Disney. Like, she's just so amazing. So the illustrations are going to be out of this world. So as long as I don't screw up the basic story, I think we'll be OK. Joe: And when's it due out? Brad: Man, I'm juggling so many different projects. I'm trying to get it done as soon as possible. You know, she has a lot going on, so we're all kind of just doing the best we can with the time. I'd love to get it out in the next three to six months, but once again, I'm hoping for a series where you'll see all these different characters and multiple books. And it's been cool because I've incorporated my previous pets into dogs that are no longer with us. For me, I have pets of dear friends of mine that are basically family that passed away, that I put in the book out of love and respect for them so they can live forever. So it's just really cool to to have that control, to tell my own story. And everybody plays a role. There's a significance to every character in the book. And I think it'll be fun for people to to enjoy these unique characters and illustrations and really bring them to life. And that's I can't credit her enough for names in the arts on Instagram. She's phenomenal. Brad: Her real name is Hedvig and she's in Sweden and she's amazing. So any updates I get from her always puts a smile on my face because she's just talented. And that that's one thing. As a manager, as a producer, I'd like to think I have a good eye for talent, whether it be for sports or music or anything. I just have a good grasp on that because I look at the big picture, whether it's from your brand or your talent in general or in a potential, you're being underutilized or whatever. And she's definitely one that is just so gifted and talented in any way. I can help her grow and win like we're winning together on this book. So it's it's a cool project. I'm excited. And like I said, if one kid reads it. And get something out of it, I've done my job, but it's also cool to to do it for my dog champ and to see him as a cartoon character is is pretty cool. So I'll send you some images offline and you can get a first look. Joe: I would love it. I would love it. All right, cool. So, again, we're right Brad: You Joe: At Brad: Had Joe: The. Brad: You had one question, you said, I can't forget. Joe: I know, but I don't want to keep you because Brad: I'm Joe: It's Brad: Good at Joe: Ok, Brad: It. Joe: So OK, you promise? Brad: Yeah, yeah, I'm good till one Joe: Ok, Brad: One 30. So. Joe: Ok, so I wanted to get to the school thing about you went to college and took the year off, you finish on line. I love Gary Vaynerchuk. I spoke to him once on the phone for like maybe two minutes tops. It was it's a story I'll tell you at another time. But he talks about you have to make that decision. And and if people are listening to this that are younger in high school or college right now, what is your opinion, if you don't mind, on doing what you love and just getting out there and doing it as opposed to going to college? And I know it varies on the circumstance, right. You can't you can't go out and walk into a surgery room and say, OK, I'm here to learn. And certain things have to happen that way. But certain things which I'd like to know what you think about that. Brad: For the parents out there, I would always say, you know, academics are important, I would I would go to college if you can. But I would also say on the flip side, if you're in a situation where you're getting good experience. In the streets and on the ground and real world experience, in my opinion, that's something that is far beyond anything you'll ever learn in school. And I can say that wholeheartedly. My on the ground in the street work that I've done since 16, 17, 18 years old, that's what made me who I am. School had a part of that, obviously. But it's you know, you can't adapt to to situations in a classroom, whereas in the real world, like, things come at you quick and you've got to be able to adapt and react accordingly. And that experience that you challenge yourself at an early age, I mean, there are high school kids where I'm like, get out there. Like, what are you waiting for? Start like now has never been a better time to do your own thing because you have Google, we have YouTube, we have all of social media, you have master class, you have all these tools that you can leverage to do your own thing, whether you're consulting, whether you want to be a music artist. Like there are so many tools that like with our iPhones now shooting for K, you don't even need a crew anymore like it. It literally is so easy to do your own thing. Brad: So now I would say if it makes sense for you and you have support around you financially and good people who are going to help you when you fall, give it a shot. But if you don't. Go to college, do what you need to do, get your degree and move forward, but like some people truly are wired for entrepreneurship. And I was that person and when I put myself in nine to five,

A discussion with international speaker, author, comedic entertainer, partner of Bliss Champions and co-author of "Unlocking Your Purpose" found on Purpose Code.com. Patrick has become one of my all-time favorite people because he lives in a state of bliss. He has found his purpose and he's filled with unlimited peace, joy and love. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. This one is definitely a highlight for me and hits home as I continue my own journey to find my ultimate bliss. Enjoy! Joe Patrick Combs: Connection with Patrick: https://www.facebook.com/patrick.combs "Unlocking You Purpose": purposecode.com Bliss Champions: blisschampions.com Patrick's website: patrickcombs.com/ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: All right. Hey, Patrick Combs, welcome to the podcast. So glad to have you here. Man, I've been waiting for this, as you know, for quite a long time, a few few months now. I think. So I'm   Patrick: Yeah,   Joe: Really excited   Patrick: Thanks,   Joe: To do   Patrick: Joe.   Joe: This. Yeah.   Patrick: As as I have been too excited to be here with you.   Joe: Well, thank you, I appreciate it and I do appreciate your time. I know you're busy, guy. So so what I like to do is, you know, I was very intrigued by us meeting, even though it was all, you know, via the Web. But, you know, I had this opportunity to see you talk to the group that I was in and, you know, learn a little bit more about you. But what's amazing, and you already know this about yourself is your storytelling and all of that. But before we get into all that, I want to kind of give the audience the back story of who you are and where you know your progression, where you came from. And then we're going to talk about all the cool things that are happening today, because I know you have, like me, a lot of irons in the fire, but you have some really unique things. You're working on things that actually, you know, that resonate deeply with me. And that's the connection I have with you. And so I'd like for you to kind of explain, you know, who where you came from, who you are. And then we'll get into the nitty gritty of everything.   Patrick: Ok, that's nice, Joe. Well, I am, I am I was raised by a single mother. In Bend, Oregon, which a lot of people are familiar with these days, because I guess been super big and super nice, but when I was in Bend, it was super nice, but not super big was sixteen thousand people. And I was my mother, a licensed practical nurse, raised my brother and I on a very small salary in high school. We were living in a trailer house, which was no problem. But, you know, let me just sort of sketch and nobody from our family had ever gone to college. But my mom was a pioneer. She was the one from our family tree that was reaching for Moore, and her primary way of doing that was to encourage my brother and I with phrases like Do what you love. Learn to work with your mind. Don't worry about your mistakes, look it up for yourself in the encyclopedias. That's what I bought those damn things for. And so I was the first person from my family to go to college and. In college, it's first at Lewis and Clark College in Portland, Oregon, and then at San Francisco State, I began to really realize that my purpose had something to do with uplifting and performing.   Patrick: And today, I know I'm fifty four and I know my purpose very clearly, it is through performance and story to uplift. And so but but, you know, you're in your 20s, you're trying to figure out what to do with your life. I felt all the calls, all the tugs in the direction of my purpose. And I could not be more grateful that just by by God's grace, I feel so I don't feel very responsible. The older I get, the less responsible I feel for my choices. I just feel grateful for them. But the greatest choice I ever made in my life and I think the first greatest choice I ever made in my life was that I was going to be an inspirational speaker. Come hell or high water is starting at twenty six years old and an author. And so without any connections, without, quote, the appropriate background or credentials or accomplishments, I did that. I became a paid professional, inspirational speaker, and it's twenty five years later and I've spoken all over the place, but there's been a million people that have that have been in front of me and my audience is listening to me waxen. And then along the way, I expect, you know, I took that purpose and and I expanded into other joyful callings, this the the second that I'm the second sort of biggest imprint that I'm known for, I think, is that I created a comedic.   Patrick: Solo comedy show for and I performed it all around the world in theaters. So if you look in broad strokes at me, if you go Patrick Combs, who is this guy and you read my bio and stuff, you you read Hall of Fame, inspirational speaker. You read comedic performer with the smash hit show and an author of five or six time author. So that's what I look like on paper. And behind the scenes, you know, I have just I have I just live doing what I love. That's been the great game of my life to live doing what I love. To place my joy. Even above my my above money, because somehow I knew early on that if I placed money above Joy, I would not end up joyful and probably not even end up healthy. So so today I have a third company and it's called Bliss Champions, and I and my business partner and I help people really lock into that great truth, unlock their purpose and maximize their joy.   Joe: So I have so many questions. OK, first question this is going to speak to well, no, actually, I want to go back to the early part of this, which is you were lucky enough to have a mother that instilled what she did in you with, you know, that positive reinforcement. I think if when I listen to other people talk who had struggles creating the life that they would ultimately wanted, it seems that we trace a lot of that. Back to how you were brought up and what was said to you by your parents. That's the ultimate it seems to be the ultimate catalyst of what you end up becoming. And the people that had an incredible reinforcement and, you know, go ahead, make mistakes, whatever. Follow your dream, follow what you love. All of that stuff. They end up becoming these incredible people and the ones that didn't have that struggle through ridding that from their brains and flushing all of that garbage out and then having to kind of rebuild themselves at a at a, you know, somewhere in the middle, at an older age. And then eventually the hope is that that that   Patrick: Yes,   Joe: Leaves them so   Patrick: Yes and no,   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: Right? So for me, one hundred percent, yes. My mother my mother gave me the foundation. The schemata and the foundation, both the both the sort of the loving, the loving, positive self reinforcement of positive self-esteem. Combined with really great directives, I mean, she was my first Joseph Campbell, right? He   Joe: Hmm   Patrick: Said, follow your   Joe: Hmm,   Patrick: Bliss. And   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: She said, do what you love. But when you when you counter correctly and you don't want to add something to it, when you say, well, and then what if you got negative messages from your parents? Well, you know, that's Howard Stern and that's Bono and that's Oprah. So what I know is the difference between, though, is that because I'm really fascinated with how Howard, this conversation Howard Stern and Bono had once both sharing that. So it seems like if you if you got no love speaking for men specifically, you got no love from your if you're trying to somehow live up to a father that beat you down, seems like tremendous successes often created. But then you have to reckon with why you created it, what foundation it was created upon emotional, psychological foundation. It was created on some point. I think there's a reckoning for all of us in our childhood, you know, to say, hey, no one gets out of their childhood unscathed by the by the inadvertent or accidental mistakes of their parenting or perceived mistakes. No one gets out of that. You know, I came out of my childhood heavily damaged by my mother's suicidal nature. You know, so. I just wanted to sort of add that footnote, Joe.   Joe: Yeah, no, I and I and I look at this sometimes through my own lens, that my mother struggled, you know, her family struggled financially. Her father was an alcoholic, left them her mother had to, you know, take care of them all. And so when she when she was raising us, it was always a very cautious sort of raising. It's like, you know, do something that that makes a living. You know, you get health insurance like a very sort of secure, protective sort of thing. And I think that in my own brain caused me to not necessarily do all that I thought I could do, because I just always felt this this limitation of, you know, you shouldn't do that, you know? And I was pursuing a music career. So I you know, that's very, very hard career path like acting and other things like that. Right. And so so when I when I think about this and we have this conversation, my father was very much would push me to say, go, do you know, do that. But it would be more quiet like my mother took care of us. Right. He was working. So she got the say. And it was like, you can't you just can't go do something like that. You have to take the safer route.   Patrick: Now,   Joe: Right.   Patrick: That's   Joe: So.   Patrick: That's impactful, right,   Joe: Right.   Patrick: That that's your first introduction to the rule book for how to proceed   Joe: Yep.   Patrick: In your life, and you were given the one that said proceed with caution.   Joe: Correct.   Patrick: Boy, that I mean, yeah, I was given the opposite rule book.   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: I really was I was given a very different rulebook, and it that matters, doesn't it?   Joe: Yeah, totally,   Patrick: It matters   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: Until it doesn't matter, as Secretary says, about suffering. Suffering matters and is helpful until it doesn't matter and it's no longer helpful,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Right? So as soon as we wake up to oh shit, that's the rule book I had. Now we're free to grab a different one off the   Joe: Yeah,   Patrick: Shelf.   Joe: Yeah, and it's just whatever that triggers that, you know, and whether that's, you know, reading different things and being around people that, you know, like yourself, that create this this aura of like, no, this there's another way. You know, it's just it's this is one life. Go do it.   Patrick: Right.   Joe: You know, one's around anymore to tell you what to do, especially people that are older. Right. Is just   Patrick: Yeah,   Joe: Go.   Patrick: And there's no safety in playing it safe.   Joe: Right.   Patrick: It would be the rulebook, no safety in playing   Joe: That's   Patrick: It safe. That's   Joe: Hey,   Patrick: The greatest   Joe: That's   Patrick: Risk of all.   Joe: That could be the next title of your next book.   Patrick: Yeah.   Joe: All right, before we get to all that other stuff, so then the next thing that you talked about was the speaking part of it. And I know there's so many people out there and and, you know, they'll definitely be people in my audience that listen to this and and eventually watch the YouTube version of this that look there. They would love to do that sort of thing. And and it's hard to get someone that has had such great success at it like you to where I have you one on one at this moment, say, well, how did you do that? What was the first step? And then what was the part that finally went to something much bigger? And then where you are now, where, you know, the audiences are huge, you're speaking fees. You know, they could be I don't know   Patrick: They're   Joe: What they   Patrick: Big,   Joe: Are, but they're big,   Patrick: They're   Joe: So.   Patrick: Big,   Joe: Right. So   Patrick: Joyfully big.   Joe: Good. So what was the first how did you get into it?   Patrick: So let's I'm going to go fast and I'm going to speak to two different directions, because I heard you very specifically. First, I'm going to go fast on how I got into it. But   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Second, I'm going to couple that, if you don't mind, with what I would do today if I was starving,   Joe: Perfect.   Patrick: Because there are different worlds.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: But what they both have in common is the psychology that's necessary. OK, so let me address the psychology last year, OK? What I did is it twenty six years old, I naively said naively and powerfully, impotently said I want to be a speaker, so I want to be paid at it. So how do I get a paid speaking engagement? And it didn't take much looking to say I have to tell people I'm a paid speaker. So I made I bought a mailing list of every college in the United States, half of half of all colleges in the United States of America, those that were part of an association looking for all kinds of talent. And and then I made an ugly ass flyer and I licked and stamped one thousand two hundred and fifty envelopes and I put them all in the mailbox. And and then I and then I waited for the incoming interest, interested prospects, and I cold called and and failed 40 incoming prospective cold calls, a failed 40 out of 40 of them. And then the universe's magic that is always present will always show up, kicked in. And another lead came in and I followed it up. And after four months of failed, failed calls, I got a yes from black out Black Hawk. Technical college in Wausau, Wisconsin, for one thousand two hundred dollars, total airfare included,   Joe: Wow.   Patrick: And I was off and running.   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: You know, so you can hear both, but you can hear them, you know, the challenge of it and the mechanics of how simple. I somehow intuited. The path to be and I see people overcomplicate marketing all the time, especially in today's world where marketing super sophisticated and you know your call, it looks like you have to be you have a billion followers and all this stuff and none of it's it's rarely ever true.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: So anyhow, if but but I was launching myself as a speaker in 1992 when if you wanted to have a voice in the world and you wanted to be paid for it, there was, you know, a keynote speaking. Was it? You know, I was looking up to the Tom Peters of the world   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: Who are being paid 50000 dollars in and they were like, oh, Jesus, Tom Peters has a job where he gets up in front of people. They pay him to give his opinion and his advice. Jesus, I wanted that so badly. I wanted that so freaking bad. So I went after very directly who would pay me to speak to them and give them advice? Who could I command their attention of and be 100 percent confident? I can tell you something that's beneficial.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: In Wisconsin, as I said, oh, I know what to say to college students because I was there just three years ago and they're not getting the truth about what it takes to to to grab that job you're passionate about and go for it. So and therein lies the the deep psychology of what it takes. It's it's answering a tug on your sleeve from your soul that says you have something to say, you want this and you've and you've got something to say. But the hardest choice. The first three steps are the hardest one is to recognize you got a tug on your sleeve. Your soul is saying, that would be incredible and something is there for us. I believe in that more than I believe in anything in the world. Something in Steven Jobs said it's something inside you intuitively knows what you already want to be. Something inside me intuitively knew I wanted to be on stages, inspiring people, uplifting people to answer that call is difficult. It's hard as hell, only the most courageous. No, only those who find them. Their moment of courage will do it. So you don't there's no such thing as being courageous, there's just being courageous in the right moments. So once you answer that, then the second giant hurdle you got to get over, even in today's world, is what's my message? Because the number one thing, the Powers's speaking career is confidence.   Patrick: That you deserve to be on that stage. And it's hard it's hard to find if you don't know where to look. And so that confidence has to be built on who can I confidently be certain I could make a difference with because of what I know and I've experienced and I've overcome. Twenty six years old, I could not have built a successful speaking career speaking to corporate audiences. Why? I had fantasies about it because Tom Peters was the guy I was looking up to, but I could not find. A firm grant firm ground to stand on, say, I can walk into a corporate audience and tell them what's up. At twenty six now, I haven't worked at a corporation. So so the deepest the second deepest question, the answer for yourself is who come on, just tell me who in front of you. Who do I put in front of you that you go, Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I can do this. And when you nail that boy, you're like nuclear powered. Now all you've got to do is say, great, how do I tell them I'm available for hire? How do I tell the right people I'm available for hire? But so far in today's world, though, so here's the nuance in today's world, though, Joe, I wouldn't start a keynote speaking career in today's world if I was if I was saying I want to be a speaker,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Because now social media exists because a messenger, I'm a messenger and a messenger. And that just means you got the messages you want to share. So so the messenger and me saw. Oh, well, in 1992, that was stages. If you were the keynote speaker in 2000 and 2001, it's every day on social media.   Joe: Right.   Patrick: And that's where so anybody that, quote, wanted to be a speaker said, no, no, you don't want to be a speaker, you want to be a messenger, constantly sharing your messages and often getting invited to stages in stages. Now look like Zoom's. They look like webinars. They look like 20 minute Ted Ted talks.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: They look like anywhere where you are the authority getting to share your message.   Joe: So let me ask you this, I don't mean to interrupt, but I want to know why, when you first did that speaking when you started on this path, what made you think only three years out of college that you had something to then go back and teach the college kids? What light bulb went off and said, I can go back and explain to them that I'm doing what I love?   Patrick: None of none of my peers, I looked around and none of my peers, all of them that were smarter than me, all of them had better grades than me, even my peers that went to better schools than me, UC Berkeley and Stanford, they all seemed to lack a fundamental understanding that I was benefiting from, which is you should do what you love. Isn't that wild?   Joe: Yeah, it's it's I mean, you're lucky   Patrick: Yeah,   Joe: It's.   Patrick: They they they all seem to have bought into the giant myth or lie or distortion that says you should do what's hot. You should do what you can get. You should do what pays you good money,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: All of which to   Joe: Mm   Patrick: Me   Joe: Hmm.   Patrick: Look like I'm in a casino. Astonishing bullshit. Like, I think one of the greatest blessings God ever gave me was a radar that said, that's inferior bullshit.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: That's not what a great, meaningful life of purpose is built on, it's not built on what's hot on what makes money, you know, on what other people will think is cool. It's built on what your soul thirst to do.   Joe: Yeah, it's it's powerful, it's just, you know, and I just had this conversation with our our friend Chris hey, where I feel like there's I don't I don't know how to even say this, but it feels like we're fixing ourselves later in life. And I wish what you did on that first stage for that, those college kids, we could even go a little earlier in life and and, you know, talk to kids that are I don't know what the age, what the mentality is and what the age group and what they can absorb at a certain age. I don't know that scientific research that's been done, but it would be nice, you know, how sometimes a young kid will see something they'll see   Patrick: It's   Joe: On Michael   Patrick: Happening.   Joe: Jordan?   Patrick: It's   Joe: Yeah,   Patrick: Happening,   Joe: I   Patrick: You   Joe: Just   Patrick: Know.   Joe: Wish we could move it. I feel like we're all trying to fix it now   Patrick: Right,   Joe: In   Patrick: But.   Joe: Midlife where I wish we could move it earlier.   Patrick: What you know, I mean, the role models for today's kids that that are young, that are below 10, they're tremendous   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: Because I have a 12 year old son. And if you've never seen Mr. Beast in, my son loves   Joe: Oh,   Patrick: Mr.   Joe: Yeah, I   Patrick: Beast   Joe: Have   Patrick: And I love Mr. Beast. That's an that's a messenger. That's   Joe: A.   Patrick: An inspirational messenger. Who is role modeling. Hey, you can not only do what's wildly joyful and fun, but you can give your that guy understands giving it a level   Joe: Yeah,   Patrick: That I dream of learning that   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: I dream of embodying. So, you know, every jet I view this next generation as Savea as more enlightened and it's so awesome to see.   Joe: Yeah, I.   Patrick: But Mr. Resum role modeling for my son, you know, I thought I think I'm a role model for my son, that you can do what you love and have an abundant life. And Mr. Beest is better role model. You know, Mr. B gets it earlier and at a level that's in almost incomprehensible,   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: You know.   Joe: Yeah, well, OK, so you've talked about the speaking part of it, and then how about a little bit about the one man show, because that was a really interesting story to me about   Patrick: Ask me   Joe: How   Patrick: A question,   Joe: That came about.   Patrick: Would you benefit me with a question?   Joe: Well, I want to know, like what I remember the story, how you saw it on TV and a trigger, you were like, I want to do that. Like when you said, I want to create this show. And just that one night in that hotel room that triggered it all for you, just like that, you're still on stage, but it's a step in a completely different direction.   Patrick: Yeah, thank you, Joe. OK, so then let me think about. Making the super relevant for anybody listening. OK, so what's really remarkable to me is that we can be successful. So maybe someone's listening to say, I love my life. I like my life. I'm Ahmad, I'm successful, and you're just clapping along and you're saying, oh, yeah, I got this. I couldn't be happier for you, but I want to I want to tell you a true story from my life about when I felt that way, but I wasn't. But I wasn't. But there was something much bigger that was tugging at my sleeve that was very hard to acknowledge. So I was this quote, by my standards, very successful speaker all over the country, whatever. And then but. There was this secret unrealized ambition, Joe, and you haven't you haven't heard this sort thing, and the secret unrealized ambition was to be a story teller in the theater, just the only guy on stage, enthralling and entertaining an audience and making them laugh with just a personal story from my life. This and this was a dream that came to me that was inspired. It's not a dream. It's this was a. A soul calling. That I felt when I was about, oh, twenty two or twenty three years old, because it even before I became a speaker, my girlfriend took me to a theater, not a movie theater. And we watched Spalding Gray, a legendary theater performer, just tell us a story for an hour and a half from behind his desk. And I walked out of that theater, Joe, and I turned to my girlfriend in her old 1964 Rambler. And I said, thank you for bringing to me that that was amazing. And she said, Oh, yeah, he's so great, isn't he? I said, I looked her in the eyes. I said. Now, that was unbelievable,   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: I said what I would give to do that. Because I thought I just seen the best thing a human being could ever do with their life and, you know, and this woman who loved me very much and meant nothing harmful by it responded. Yeah, but you'd have to be funny. Bakersfield was super funny, and what she didn't know is, is that was like shooting an arrow accidentally right through the chink in my armor because I heard it and said, oh, yeah, what was I thinking? I just sat in there with a master. And I'm not funny and I'm not even good storyteller, so I'm just sitting here in this 1964 Rambler having myself a pipe dream. I can't do that what he just did, he made it look effortless because he's a master and so I built a speaking career, which I very, very, very much love, but I still had this secret, unrealized ambition in it. 30, what you were referring to is at 33 years old. Well, another theatre performer had come on the scene, a named John Leguizamo. And John Leguizamo was in my book was Spalding Gray Times 10. And no disrespect to Spalding Gray, the creator of the medium. But but where Spalding Gray sat behind a desk, John Leguizamo tore up use the entire stage became 18 different characters, male, female, young or old, and was 10 times funnier in my book. So he came on.   Patrick: I was there in a hotel room and he has his HBO special came on. And I've never felt worse about my. In some way about my sort of career self and, well, this really I got this horrible, horrible ache pain in my solar plexus, and it was the pain of fear, of paralysis, of envy, of self-loathing. Because what? Because it was this swirling ball of hell in my stomach that said, I love what this man is doing and I want it so bad for myself, but it's impossible for me to get to because it's it's. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to ever do what I dream of doing. And and that was that was the that was my fear of not doing it. You know, built up for 10 years is, as we like to say in my business, Bliss Champions. Your purpose left on, attended to becomes a purpose, curse becomes a curse. And so on that hotel room bed, I felt the curse and the pain. And fortunately, I grabbed for a pad of paper and I wrote at the top, what are you so afraid of? And I started freeriding. And I wrote all these fears, you'd expect them looking bad, looking stupid, being awful, wasting my time, you know, wasting money, taking away from my really good speaking career. And then in the end, I wrote something that really surprised me. I'm afraid I won't be as great as John Leguizamo or Spalding Gray.   Patrick: And when I wrote that sentence. It like took the lid off of something super dark and evil in me, because when I saw that sentence in the light of day, I never realized that was one of my fears. It looked absurd. I laughed out loud at the absurdity of I have never told and I've never even attempted what they've done and yet. And yet the reason why I'm not going for it is because I not I might I'm comparing myself to the greatest human beings on planet Earth at this craft. And it just struck me as ridiculous, and then a voice came into my mind, a thought that I never had before, couldn't you just do it for fun? And the weight of the world was lifted off that secret, unrealized ambition, me, who's so success minded, had never thought of just doing it for the sake of fun, the pleasure of I should try that. Who cares if I fail? And that was my ginormous breakthrough on my greatest bliss ever. And so I so I started doing it for fun shortly after that. And to make a long story short, for 15 years, I toured with my one person solo show. I and this is a metric I care about, but is not why I did the show. I did the show for the love of doing the show, for   Joe: Hmm.   Patrick: The love of learning to do the show, for the love of hearing audiences laugh. But in the end, what blows my mind is a hundred thousand people bought tickets to see my show. Hundred thousand people sat in my audience for 15 years. I had a red carpet tour of the theater world and today it's being made into a Hollywood movie.   Joe: It's amazing.   Patrick: Right.   Joe: And it's incredible.   Patrick: So.   Joe: So what you said or you said, why not just do it for fun if someone's in the same spot that you are in that hotel room, when you were watching him perform on that HBO special, would you say that that's a good starting point for some people who just can't seem to to to do that thing that they so want to do as it just. Is that a good trigger? I don't know if that's the right thing,   Patrick: It   Joe: But   Patrick: Is.   Joe: Is that OK?   Patrick: In Bliss Champions, we've learned we've got a real extraordinary map for for these for these kind of we call them bliss journeys, going into speaking was a blitz journey for me. A journey to follow my bliss. Going into the theater was a journey to follow my bliss. Writing a book was a journey to follow my bliss. So we've got a really detailed map. And what's surprising is the biggest pitfall we know of on the map is the desire to monetize what's possible to use to Zoom to early. So   Joe: Interesting.   Patrick: You think of your bliss, right, and then immediately society is trained us to think, but how will you make money at that?   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: And that kills more bliss journeys. The two biggest killers of all blessed journeys is not getting started and trying to monetize to even think about monetizing too soon. So they're the antidote to monetizing too soon is forget about monetizing. Do it for fun. Do it for fun. The benefit is Joy.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: The benefit is fun fund, the benefit is aliveness, then the benefit is ball in motion, and momentum has to be included in anybody's realistic formula of great success. Momentum is one of the major ingredients of great success. So as long as you're sitting around not doing something, trying to figure out how you how you can guarantee success on it, you got no momentum. You got nothing.   Joe: Yeah, yeah, that's   Patrick: So, yeah, just do it for fun.   Joe: I love it,   Patrick: That's my mantra now, Joe, is   Joe: I love it.   Patrick: Is I don't wake up my career and figure out how to do things for money, I wake up and I figure out how to do things for joy and the money. I mean, you know, I care about money. I make good money. But the money is and is a secondary thought. It is the longest money has that rightful positioning in my life, it's secondary,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Like once I once I figured out what's joyful to me and I've got emotion in it, we can figure out how to monetize it. No problem. You know what we teach English champions. If you can't monetize your your most blissful activity, don't blame it on your bliss. Blame it on your on your business skills. And you don't have to blame it on your business skills, you just have to know it's not my bliss that I can't monetize. I don't have to change my bliss or forgo my bliss. I have to learn to monetize.   Joe: Yeah, it's you hit it on the head and it's a it's amazing how many people have such great talents, great ideas, great aspirations, and it's just that putting that one foot in front of the next one. And the one thing I think you hit it right on the head is just how I can make a living at that. How can I do that? And it's it's it would be so cool if people just did it for the fun of it and then the joy and what they bring to other people, all of that other stuff the universe delivers because it just realizes that's what you were meant to do. Right. It's just.   Patrick: Yeah.   Joe: Well, so you mentioned Bliss Champions, you know, throughout this conversation. And I think this is the appropriate time now to sort of clue in because, again, we're we're limited on time and I have a million things. So let's talk about this champions. So I would like to know I ran across it just because once we got off that call where you were teaching us how to tell the story, you know, tell our story and a very creative way, I then was doing all my own research and I said, who is this guy? Man, I love the way he talks. And I can tell that there's just something about him in his soul that's on fire. And I want to know more about it. And then it took me to Blessed Champion. So I'd like for you to explain to the audience what this champion is, what it does, what you know, how, and then we'll put in the show links all of the other stuff to get in touch with you. But I you know, to explain what it what its purpose is would be awesome.   Patrick: Ok, well, I'll give you I'll give you us a scoop, Joe Torre, I don't know when you're going to publish this. I actually should ask you, when are you going to publish this? Probably.   Joe: I can do it whenever.   Patrick: Ok, well, you   Joe: I do   Patrick: Know.   Joe: What a week, normally I can postpone this, I can I can   Patrick: Ok, well, look, in   Joe: Do   Patrick: About   Joe: It tomorrow.   Patrick: In about one in about one week, two weeks tops, we're going to announce our brand new book   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: And I'm so excited about it. It is the conversation we're having. So I'm going to tell you the first person I'm going to tell, it's called "Purpose Code", How to "Unlock Your Purpose", maximize your joy, astound yourself and if someone says, oh, jeez, I am interested in this free report we made about it, which is the 10 reasons why people don't unlock their purpose and go to purposecode.com. So no one knows that website exists yet. So.   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: So but they're going to find out first through going to purposecode.com.   Joe: I love   Patrick: So   Joe: It.   Patrick: Bliss Champions. Bliss Champions, so the surprising thing, Joe, is in, you tell me how much you've seen as I can't believe how much I've seen, it's shocking to me is how many successful business owners there are. Who are lacking joy. These are people I'm telling you, like Mega Millions dream home, not one dream car in the driveway, as many as they desire looked up to by all their peers and all their employees. Happy that they built the business, happy they overcame all this stuff and made it to the top, but their deepest secret. Is something's missing. And so my business partner was one of those guys, you know, he cashed out for 50 million bucks. And still, something was missing. So his story is quite remarkable. He's not here, so we won't tell it, but but. As you saw, so he both knew it through personal experience and sitting in on groups like on the IS. Know, as the entrepreneurs organization, you got to be a successful entrepreneur to qualify to get in. Well, one of the first things that my business partner saw up close and personal through that organizations, wow, so many people here have secret unrealized ambitions that they're not going for because somehow they're successful business.   Patrick: Has it been a little bit of a bind? And somehow along the way, while they were flexing their entrepreneurial muscles. They their their muscles for joy and bliss atrophied or were never developed, and so we both inherently understood how much impact if you can shift a person at the top of an organization to be joyful, they will spread. They will spread that message through the entire organization. Leaders that lead from Joy and that follow their bliss want everybody to follow their bliss and maximize their joy. That is the you can't be living joyfully and blissfully, truly without wanting to spread joy and bliss. It's impossible. Love, it's impossible for love to not desire to spread love. So. So. Bliss Champions is our remedy, it's we're four years into into seeking out and accepting individuals who who are successful but know something is missing. They don't know how to figure out what what is missing in what would be in their lexicon, a smart move, because they're used to everything being, quote, smart, right. What would be a good, smart, legitimate move that would bring them more joy? And we're experts at that. We help them unlock their purpose, because once you know exactly what your purpose is and you can put it in words, you have a true north and you not now you don't make missteps.   Patrick: And then but once you unlock your purpose, then then the great opportunity is to feel great, you know what your purpose is, what bliss journey should you take up? And there's a lot of choices. So you have to have good decision making structure. So we call ourselves Bliss Sherpa's because we've been up and down the on our own bliss journeys through our whole lives. That's that's been the blessing of our lives. We know the territory. We know the mistakes. We know the pitfalls. We know where where people quit and why they quit. So we Sherpa people up on blissful journeys and all of our secrets to doing that, that we've you know, I've been on I've been Sherpa and I've been a Sherpa for people following their passion and living their dreams and following their bliss for twenty five years. And Eric has been doing it for an equal amount of time as a CEO of large organizations. So this is why I'm so thrilled that we wrote a book together on it and the book's called "Purpose Code". And all of our secrets are in that book.   Joe: That's great, it is was there some momentous occasion that how are you and Eric connected?   Patrick: Yeah, Eric cashed out for millions of dollars, and he and the day after he cashed out and he went to lay in by his pool, just view overlooking his wine estate. He was rushed to the hospital and almost died from   Joe: Uh.   Patrick: Poor health while he was laying in that hospital bed contemplating his mortality. He realized I didn't finish the job of my purpose. And he knew that Eric's always known I've known Eric twenty five years, Eric has always known his purpose is to help other people, is to help is to inspire himself to live joyfully and to take that inspiration and spread it to other people. This is the thing about purpose. Here's a lesson and purpose. Your purpose is, first and foremost, what selfishly brings you joy. And you can't support your purpose if you're looking for if you're looking outside of yourself for where to save the world, you will you'll you won't see it when you say, look, it's just selfish. Something inside me always, you know, is always finds joy when I'm in this direction, when I'm doing this kind of activity, I'm my best self. Once you identify where your best self, what you'll see is then that when you give yourself that gift, you automatically give it to others and desire to give it to others. And that's where your purpose becomes a service to the world. So so, Eric, figure it out, man, you know, I I've always been living my purpose, but I slipped off track. While I was going on flexing his entrepreneurial muscles and going on this incredible monetary tear.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: And so he got out of the hospital, began working on his health and called me up and said, let's start list champions. There's a there's a he said there's you know, the one thing you and I have always been united on is wanting to help people follow their bliss.   Joe: Now, that's really crazy. That's.   Patrick: And the reason why I said yes is because I had hidden from my bliss for 10 years in in fear, right, my secret ambition seemed   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: Impossible. And so I knew the cost of doing that. I knew the falsehood of doing that. And I and I knew that I knew the tremendous pressures that await anybody on the other side of finally finding the wherewithal to   Joe: But.   Patrick: Do it. And so, as I said, once you've experienced that kind of joy and bliss and truth, you want to share it with others. You want to say, like, I'll show you where your greatest life is and society just doesn't it just doesn't have enough messages. You know, it's societies has too many messages about smart, about practical, about money, about status. And all that stuff comes with following your bliss. But it can't be it can't be the deciding factors or you won't know where your bliss is calling you to.   Joe: Yeah, it's like we have it backwards, it's like the cart before the horse, right. And if we can just flip it, it's everything just sort of opens up and through Bliss Champions, you help people to work through this. And then ultimately the goal would be is is it a week long?   Patrick: It's a six it's a six month program.   Joe: Six month program, so.   Patrick: Yes, it's a month program, people apply to get in.   Joe: A.   Patrick: We we we work with seven people at a time, cohorts of super small seven. So it's super individual. And and then it culminates after six months of coaching and masterminding, it culminates in our super, super specialty. We take you to Bliss Island, which is in Hawaii where we own the property and we run an extraordinary five day retreat to try to really launch our our participants and into their bliss.   Joe: Yeah, it's incredible. I   Patrick: It's   Joe: Love   Patrick: Fun,   Joe: It.   Patrick: It's   Joe: You   Patrick: Super   Joe: Know you   Patrick: Fun.   Joe: Know that I love it. I just   Patrick: Yeah.   Joe: One of these days I'm going to be a blessed champion and I'll have to figure that out. But sooner than later,   Patrick: Now, we've   Joe: I'm   Patrick: Launched   Joe: Not.   Patrick: We launched Authors', we've launched we've taken people that that thought this isn't a this isn't worth a book. And now they're published on the best publishers on Earth and they've got a multi thing deal with one guy has only he said his bliss was motorcycle's writing Harlesden. He thought, what can I do with that, that you can't monetize that? And and now he has one of the only dealership licenses in the country to rent Harley's and take people on Harley tours, Harley Bike Tours.   Joe: Mm   Patrick: He   Joe: Hmm.   Patrick: Has his own Harley bike tour dealership. We've taken CEOs who had giant companies but weren't happy and now they're super joyful, super happy. Their marriages are better. And they're and in addition to running their company, they're joyfully doing this thing they always dreamed of doing. They're they're more amplified, express self. So our stories sound like that, you know.   Joe: Yeah, that's great. So how can someone find out about this champions and how do they go about doing what they need to to become a part of that program?   Patrick: Well, let's I'm going to answer that really quickly and then let's go to a different territory, if   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: You don't mind, OK, because I don't want someone listening to this. I'm looking at the clock here and I think that we have about 12 minutes. And I   Joe: I   Patrick: Like   Joe: Just   Patrick: To maximum   Joe: Want to I think   Patrick: My.   Joe: It's amazing. I wanted to   Patrick: Thanks.   Joe: Give it its time because I   Patrick: Well,   Joe: Think   Patrick: Everybody   Joe: It's, you know.   Patrick: Everybody should start "Purpose Code", because the biggest value that they can get right away is truly to read this report that I wrote. And it's called "The Ten Things That Stop People From Unlocking Their Purpose". You got to know, how come I don't know my purpose? What am I missing here? So go to purposecode.com and just grab that free report.   Joe: Perfect.   Patrick: And then and then it'll it'll lead you to learning about Bliss Champions. It's an application process. I would love people to apply. It's free to apply, you know, and then we individually interview you get to know you and and we have all kinds of ways to serve. And   Joe: Perfect.   Patrick: You can get the book in your hands.   Joe: Ok,   Patrick: But   Joe: Cool.   Patrick: But let's let's let's see how many more how much more insider. Something super helpful we can pack into the last ten minutes here.   Joe: Perfect. So I have something that I totally wanted to ask you that if you can put it in an understandable layman's terms where it doesn't come across as being overly spiritual and fufu. But you talk about being present in so many people these days are talking about that. But I love watching your talks. When you you know, you're out doors taking a walk and you have your phone and you talk about it. But how do you put it in and like everyday   Patrick: Layman's   Joe: Terms   Patrick: Terms,   Joe: For it? Yeah,   Patrick: Yeah,   Joe: Because, you   Patrick: Yeah.   Joe: Know, everybody looks at and go, wait a second, you want me to sit in silence for ten minutes, meditate, or you want me   Patrick: I   Joe: To   Patrick: Don't write.   Joe: All of those things to pull yourself back in, to be centered, to have, you know, hold space for yourself, all these things. And it's just so hard these days. We're getting bombarded from all sides. So because of you and how you can communicate these things, I want to know from you what being president means and how someone could practice it on a daily basis   Patrick: Ok.   Joe: Where it's not this.   Patrick: You're   Joe: This.   Patrick: Making me. You're making me super happy because now you're bringing up my next favorite subject.   Joe: Perfect.   Patrick: So   Joe: Awesome.   Patrick: So I. I am both deeply spiritual about this, but but there's no need to talk about it in that way because I didn't approach it that way. I just approached it from man, I need I need a different way to do my life. And I found that different way to do my life. And it was the most revolutionary, impactful, beneficial thing I've ever learned or done in my life. And so you'll see me spend the majority of the rest of my life has boiled down to two two things. Two things on one hand, follow your bliss. And we've been talking about why, why, because it's your bliss, it will bring you bliss and, you know, as we say in Bliss Champions sometimes. Is there something better than BLIS because BLIS means perfect happiness? So what are you looking for if you're not looking for perfect happiness? So but in follow your bliss, there's a doing this to it, right? It's it's OK. We don't similar, but there is another path to bliss. And so I have a right hand and a left hand strategy to life in my right hand because I love having a career. I love to have something to do every day. I love making, you know, while having a career. I follow my bliss and in my left hand, I, I. Nowhere Bliss's without doing anything, I know how to find BLIS every single day of my life, no matter.   Patrick: What happens, no matter the circumstances, no matter the hardships, no matter the challenges, I know where bliss is, even in storms. So my career could not be going well, but in my left hand, I still know where Joy is every single day and how to get there in a concrete fashion. So that to me, my this left hand strategy I'm talking about that you brought up that I call a presence practice. That's where it sits in my life. So. Let's see, it's a good window into this. I'm taking a little quiet space for it to find me. Why would someone want to practice presence? Because what I didn't know I was well into my 40s, Joe, and I had never once wielded the word ego. And and up until the point when I got a new definition and it became very meaningful to me, Igoe to me meant don't be egotistical. It meant, oh, or you have a healthy ego. It takes a healthy ego. That's all I thought of ego when I was in. And then, to be honest with you, I hit a rock bottom in my life sometime in my 40s, my ego, the my shadow self, my bad behavior, the worst of me. The worst of me put me in a position where I were where I was at my rock bottom, and I thought to myself, there's got to be a better way.   Patrick: And I reached for there had been a book sitting on my cell for a long time that I had no interest in. It was called.    "The Power of Now", Eckard Tolle. And I grabbed this book and it re educated me and it re informed me and it completely transformed my life. The book didn't transform my life as much as my adherence to what the book said for the next seven years on a daily basis transformed my life. It did it very quickly, but I was so in love with what I was discovering that that I just kept being a diligent student of what Eckhart Tolle calls presence. OK, so in a very short amount of time, here's what I would love somebody to experiment with on this call that is non-spiritual. The only thing that is ever causing you a bad feeling. Is your thoughts? Now, so I had to wrap my mind around that first experiment with that, because I used to believe, no, I'm having a bad feeling because this shitty thing happened. And I was positive that was true. Until I wasn't until I began to say, wait a minute, is there a buffer in me that's causing the pain, not the situation, this is easily answered, but you should but everybody should try it on. That's life changing, because what if situations and bad circumstances are not causing you bad feelings? What if it's what you think about those bad circumstances, how often you think about those bad circumstances that are causing you a bad feeling? OK, for instance.   Patrick: I want to talk about the pandemic and then I'll talk about the pandemic, for instance, the day that it's announced that we're going to be in quarantine for however long, an indeterminate amount and 20, 20 people in the world had multiple possibilities for a thought about it. Somebody sitting in their home could have taken that news and began thinking all kinds of really bad thoughts that, hey, are well justified. I'm not here to argue with the with the with whether that thought is justified. But somebody could have been sitting there thinking, this is awful. I might lose my job. I like going outside now. I can't going outside. What are the implications of not going outside? What if I'm in my house forever? What if I get covid-19? What if my friends get covered and I die? What if they never leave? The governor is terrible. The president is terrible. The vaccine is terrible. Was it made in the lab? Those thoughts are causing in a bad and negative emotions in the body. And what if and some people thought those every hour of every day. Not not by choice, but by by habituated pattern of their mind, getting to think without ever being safety, without ever any but any other force saying hold on.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Do we want to think like this 24/7? Is it serving us? OK, but equally to lots of people did that. So lots of people had horrible emotions. And I'm not saying don't do that, I'm just saying be aware that's why you had horrible emotions. What didn't happen is the pandemic is the the announcement the pandemic did not reach into anybody's body invisibly and say you now feel bad. Outside circumstances cannot reach in your body and and flip switches and say you feel bad. They cannot be the cause. If only a fox can be the cause, equally so and wildly true, unbeknownst to me just six years ago, but now perfectly known to me and the most exciting thing I've ever learned is some people heard the news of the pandemic. And fought and fought like this. Oh. We're going to go into quarantine. Now with to wash the dishes. And didn't have further thoughts about it until there was more news or until those thoughts were necessary. And didn't feel negative emotions, or if they did feel the negative emotions, only felt them for as long as that emotion lasted, while it wasn't being sustained by unchecked, unreasonable, insane, incessant thinking. So a president's practice is simply, well, on one hand, a presence practices the deep recognition that circum negative circumstance circumstances don't cause you upset your thoughts about them do and your ego. Ego should be defined as when when you're not thinking your thoughts, they're thinking you. And you don't even know it. So I learned to not be the crazy guy, the insane guy who is washing dishes, who is physically washing dishes, but who mentally in my mind for 15, 20, 30 minutes is having an imaginary argument that I'm winning with somebody else.   Patrick: I learned to not be that guy, I learned that I that I was concerned that we're all constantly that guy. And that you don't have to be that you can wash dishes while you wash dishes. And that if you do so, here's what I promise you, because I know from experience, if you learn to quiet, to say presence means I'm not going to be in the future, I'm not going to be in hallucinatory future scenarios. I'm not going to let my mind run off to hallucinatory past scenarios. I'm not going to hallucinate about the future. I'm not going to hallucinate about the past because those can only be hallucinations or call them imaginations. You cannot make the future real. You cannot make the past real. The only real is ever. But you can find through your five senses. So presidents practice means live in the real more often. Want to think about something, think about what you're doing. Be what you're doing. Washing dishes, wash the dishes. If you're working on your book, work on your book, if you're talking to another person, talk to another person. If you're watching the birds in your yard, watch the birds in your yard. So here's the let me give this for me, the big wild finish, first of all, if that's all I ever knew and I figured out how to do that six years ago without any other further teachings, I would be right where I am today.   Patrick: I and these are not light sentences to me, these are the greatest revelations of my life piece. A profound sense of constant peace, a profound sense of joy for no reason and a loving feeling. You know, that filled what I used to have this black hole of, gee, I wish I could get more love. And now I have a fountain of love that just comes from inside me for no reason, peace, love and joy for no reason are what automatically and guaranteed come from being present doesn't require meditation. It requires noticing that your thoughts are running rampantly out of your control and you can distance yourself from them. And then once you distance yourself from them, you can I I like to call them the roommate, you can notice your thoughts are not you? They are a crazy roommate that's always stirring up shit in your head and never stops talking. And you are not that roommate. And you can move that roommate to the garage in the day you move. And it doesn't happen in a day the more you put that roommate in the garage. One hundred percent, peace, joy, love, for no reason other than you moved your roommate to the garage and. Miracles will begin manifesting in your life. For some reason, the entire universe is more capable then of coming to support your happiness.   Joe: It's incredible. I just I can sit and talk with you all day, and we've already gone over our man. I could just I literally could sit here and then do this. So before we leave this one subject, I think it's important. Is there is there any sort of when you talk about the practice, is there any little tidbit of how someone can do that in the simplest way? Because I think everyone gets bogged down with all of the things that are just, you know, for example, we talk about meditation. Is this hard? I mean, I used to get up every day that I made it a promise that I wouldn't do anything until I just put my headphones on, put the app on on my iPhone, turn. Everything else also wouldn't be interrupted and just did it. And I felt like that was my most productive. Let's say it was a year that I did it straight. I haven't done it in so long. I feel like I got to get back to it. I can do it like I don't mind meditating. But first there are people that will never do that. So what is of super   Patrick: I'm   Joe: Super   Patrick: One of those   Joe: Simple.   Patrick: People that doesn't matter to me.   Joe: Ok,   Patrick: I was one of those people that will never meditate,   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: And I'm really happy to say that that both are fantastic choices, whichever you feel called to clearly. And they both lead to the same way. But if someone if if in some crazy really hypothetical, I can tell when I'm saying something stupid, I'm saying something stupid. But in some crazy, stupid hypothetical situation, it's a pattern. You have to choose one for the world meditation or presence practice. I would say we got to go with presence practice. It's easier. OK, so, yes, I have two things that are really simple and super practical and bless you for asking Joe the number one thing and and wildly enough this what I'm about to say is the prescription and the advice of seemingly every great. Teacher, you know, on the planet, that's that is spiritual and it's it's to be conscious of of one single breath. So at any point in time you go, Oh, I want to do it. I want to try this president's practice. You would simply take a one breath and be aware of that of your breathing for one breath. And your awareness, you can shift around, you just say, look, my job is to be aware that I'm having this breath so that for you that might mean, oh, I'm going to focus on the feeling of the air. Coming into my body and exhaling from my body. Or you might say, I'm going to become aware of the feeling of my body expanding and contracting, or you might you're awareness might say I'm going to be aware of the sound of my breath. Doesn't matter one conscious breath because it is impossible to be conscious of your breathing and think a thought at the same time. But conscious breath is both a great it's a great present to practice because it will be difficult for most people at the beginning of their journey to complete one conscious breath without becoming aware. Fuck, I   Joe: No,   Patrick: Started   Joe: That's right.   Patrick: Thinking. I started thinking during I, my mind got off the leash and started thinking something halfway into that breath. And so that's the great teacher one because that's OK. That's a president's practice of presidents. Practice isn't isn't stopping all thoughts. It's becoming aware. Are of the thoughts of the roommate. It's becoming you're you're you're winning when you go to the roommate came in and started talking shit while I was trying to take a breath. So that's called a wake, that's a state of a weakness that in as long as you're awake to your thoughts, peace, love, joy and miracles will begin pouring into your life. Mark my words. So but as you will practice that, too, you can take a conscious breath without thinking on most given days. Wonderful. OK, the second practice, right, is that built my life on this. Is. Step number one, notice when you're feeling anything that's bad. The only thing this doesn't apply to is physical pain. OK, so I want disabled people to eliminate physical pain. It can be applied to physical plant pain, but let's just say that's an advanced course. OK, but the step number one, the most important step is to notice, oh, I'm feeling upset in any way. And there should only be one word. It would be helpful if if people change and said there's only one word now we're going to throw out all these different various words hate, depression, loneliness, sadness, grief, worry, overwhelm, stress, anxiety, who cares? Fear.   Patrick: They all deserve really one word. Suffering. They're all a form of suffering, so notice the next time that you're suffering a negative emotion. Boom. Now there's a great opportunity for step number two, OK? And usually when you notice this, what's fascinating is you'll have been feeling it for a long time. That's how long it takes for awareness to come in and say, well, I'm feeling something bad here, but I did this very for at least a year and I got to choose my life. So first, I know I have a bad feeling. Step number two is built on the awareness we already learned. Every bad feeling began with a thought that was against something happening. Every bad feeling is caused by a thought that always follows the same structure. This shouldn't be happening to me. This shouldn't be happening. OK, so when you have a bad feeling, like you're like a person trying to defuse a bomb before it really blows up, and so you trace the wires knowing at the other end of the wire there will be a fire. You had a thought at the other end of those wires that was something about you thought it shouldn't be happening. Let me give you some examples. He or she should have spoken to me like that. I should have gotten that job. I shouldn't have gotten that. There should be more money in my bank account. There should be a different president there. There. That guy shouldn't be president.   Patrick: That shouldn't have happened through my television screen. I shouldn't be in this condition. I shouldn't have that ailment. I shouldn't have this pressure. I shouldn't have been raised that way. I shouldn't. So all you're doing is tracing those wires to what did I think shouldn't be? As it is. That was the source of your pain. Now, once you have that, the third step is to take that shouldn't it shouldn't have. And. See if you can find any part of yourself and you always can. It's harder at first that says. I can allow that it. That it is that way and you're why your justification, why can you allow that it is that way can always be. Sanity because. It is. That way. And as soon as you accomplish any ability to allow that, what you are against, to just allow that, it is it's even if it's temporary allowance, it's not saying I'm OK with that person being president forever. It's not an allowance of forever. It's I'm OK. I can allow that. That person is president. Currently, because they are. So you just looking for this momentary allowance of what all spiritual teachers say of what is to be against and I love it when they point out to be against what is is insanity. Because. I'm against that this can exist really, because it exists. Could you allow that it exists? I can allow that exist, why? Because it does exist, right?   Joe: So, so far   Patrick: Right   Joe: Of.   Patrick: Now, it's not a total acceptance of and I and I can I'm and I'm allowing that these cans will exist for forever. It's not saying that. Can you allow that exist right now? At first, you'll hear your ego go, no, I hate that can. But can you allow that it exists right now is anything. Yeah, why does it exist right now? And   Joe: The.   Patrick: And all all the it shouldn't exist or they shouldn't exist. It shouldn't exist. You can do that for 12 years. Twenty four, seven years can will still exist.   Joe: It's just.   Patrick: So if you can allow that, it exists. You have accomplished. A presence practice, because presence will what will happen next will always happen, you will feel better and you'll notice how I feel. I'm returning to peace. And once you accomplish returning to peace, you'll notice or I just feel in general more love, and then after a while you'll notice, someday you'll take a measure of your life, you'll say, is my lecture. If I say my life's joyful all the time everywhere. Why? Because you moved your roommate, your ego to the ground.   Joe: Oh, it's awesome.   Patrick: Now, there's a fourth final step to that, and I think of it as advanced, but so sometimes it's hard and sometimes it's easy, but it's super fun. The fourth step, the third step was, can you allow that? Something is what it is. And the fourth possibility is can you embrace. That it is what it is. Is there anything in you that could embrace that could say not only can I allow the can is there, but I can embrace that the can is there and you can see why that's a harder step because something you were previously just totally against, could you embrace it? Now, it's a that's a different sort of class, it's not complicated, but it takes more words, my journey towards learning to embrace things I was previously against. But I'll tell you, like some of the greatest revelations of your life come when you learn to embrace everything. Everything's.   Joe: It's really powerful, man

The premise of The Art of Accomplishment is simple: it is our heart's capacity that determines our success and happiness in life. Emotional intelligence is the bottleneck to the change we want to see in ourselves and the world. Tapping into our heart's potential opens up the possibility of fulfilling our greatest ambitions without sacrificing our sense of joy and authenticity.We are taught early on that if we accomplish enough stuff we will have the life of our dreams, only to find it is a life that fails to make us happy and fulfill our hopes. In this 9-part series, you will discover that how you get things done is what makes your life far more fulfilling.Not only because you will enjoy the process of an authentic life but because enjoyment and self-awareness are critical tools in making what you accomplish more meaningful and effortless.The Art of Accomplishment podcast series accompanies the online course led by Joe Hudson. More more info, visit artofaccomplishment.com."When you're self aware, it means there is a full expression of you happening. It's why with the great artists, you see their full expression. And they can only get to that self expression, they can only get to that level of ease, by having more and more self awareness."Brett: A lot of people have a sense that self-development and accomplishment are mutually exclusive, that in order to be maximumly productive it's necessary to sacrifice parts of who we are, or to back-burner our own personal evolution. We focus on creating systems for setting and achieving goals. We imagine that by doing this, we'll somehow arrive at our fully developed self without examining where these goals came from in the first place. A question I often hear asked is how will self inquiry help me be productive and lead to more accomplishment?Joe: It's an amazing thing about the human brain, that we really like to create false distinctions. It's something that we do. I think it's because the brain in general its job is to create distinction, it likes to create false distinction. It's very much to me like the way it was in the 1970s when you could either be a businessman or you could be an environmentalist but you couldn't be both, that they were at odds.Then somewhere in the '90s, they figured out, "No, you can do both, that's possible." It's the same thing with this. In fact, they really drive each other. The personal development focus, that course if you will, gets tested in business and gets tested in projects, gets tested in getting things done. You get to learn a lot from where that rubber meets the road and vice-versa; that as you learn how to understand yourself better and other people better, which is the whole point of personal development.Then obviously you get better tools in business and you do better at getting things done. It's why I always use the phrase, art of accomplishment. It's speaking about the fact that accomplishing stuff is more about the how, than it is about what you get done. You can accomplish something and your focus could be like, my job is to earn a million dollars but in actuality you're going to be less likely to earn that million dollars, if you're not focused on the how you're going about it.I'll give you an example of this. My girlfriend in college, her name was Cate and she was a really good tennis player. With her coach, she would serve and try to hit like a basket, one of those baskets that you pick up the balls with. She was good, so she would hit it two or three out of five times. Then one day the coach took the basket off the ground and put a quarter right in the middle where that basket was sitting and said, "Serve and hit the quarter."She didn't hit the quarter once, but she would have hit the basket every single time if it was still sitting on top of that quarter. It's the thing that we see in business all the time which is focusing through the goal is one of the ways to make sure you accomplish your goals.Whether it be being the best company in the world, or whether it means beating the competition, or whether it means trying to change the world for the better through environmental solutions, or whether it means great customer service, whatever it is, having a goal that's beyond the goal that you have, makes the goal more likely to be gotten. It makes the goal more likely to be gotten.Brett: Tell me what makes this an art.Joe: You think about art. Think about it like this, there's accomplishment and accomplishment basically means that you've achieved something successfully. Successful is the first question that you have to ask. What does successfully mean? To me, it means that the task is done holistically. Is it an accomplishment to make $10? If that's my goal, if I also like sacrificed everything I love for that $10? That doesn't make any sense at all, that doesn't feel like accomplishment. It's a holistic success.It means that you're firing on all cylinders, that you're getting the whole thing done. Think about it like a building. Success isn't just getting the building erected. It's a quality building. It's a beautiful building. It's a useful building. That's what makes success. You're looking for the holistic thing. Then if you're thinking about it as far as an art form, then you have to move out of the tyranny of a checklist.Which is like, "I've written something down. Now I have to do it, or I'm going to beat myself up because I haven't done it." It's going to move into how you do it. How is it that I'm going about doing it? That's what makes it an art form. There's very specific things. If you think about art in general, what art does, the artistry of something, it means that you have more ease in doing it. It's a path of self-awareness and you recognize that your consciousness is the product. Brett: Let's get into those further. Tell me more about the ease. There's a lot of things that we want to do that are accomplishments, that just simply are not going to ever be easy, or so we think. Joe: Or so we think. There's a couple of ways that go at the ease part of it. One way to go at the ease part of it is to think about it like there's an old story about a prince coming to a butcher. He says to the butcher, "How often do you sharpen your knives?" The butcher says, "I never sharpen my knives." The Prince goes, "That's impossible. The best butchers in the world have to sharpen their knives at least once a month." The Butler says, "No, no, my blade finds the space between the meat and the bone."It's basically saying how you get things done is with the minimal amount of friction, that the master of a craft is doing it with the least moves. It's not about winning or losing anymore. They're far beyond the winning and losing of something. It's just, how do I do it with the least amount of effort? What's amazing in our society is that we think about effectiveness or efficiency in speed, as humans not as cars. Cars, it's really obvious.The fastest car doesn't mean it's the most efficient car, but we think that if we've gotten done something quickly, then we're very efficient, but efficiency isn't measured by speed. In the human condition, it's measured by enjoyment. We are efficient when we are enjoying ourselves. It means the least amount of effort is necessary. The least amount of fuel is necessary to make something happen. If you're accomplishing something with that kind of ease, when you're accomplishing something with enjoyment, which is how we measure that ease, then you're in the artistry of it. That's what I mean by ease.Brett: That makes a lot of sense, because the opposite of ease is that you are actually fighting yourself in some way. There's a part of you that doesn't want to do the thing, another part of you that does want to do the thing. There's dissonance there and a loss of efficiency. It's interesting to think of efficiency as ease or measured by ease.Joe: Exactly. Which is beautifully put, because what you're saying there is that the friction is mostly caused by the lack of self-awareness. When you understand what you are, when you are aware of how you work, there's a lot less friction. That's why the second part is so important. The artistry brings you closer to yourself.If you've ever met a great artist and there's a way, at least when they're working, at the very least when they're working, you see this self-awareness, this presence that occurs and that's what it means. That self-awareness, it brings you closer to yourself. It calls you into something deeper. It has to be a full expression of you. It's self-awareness. When you're self-aware, it means that there's a full expression of you happening. It's with the great artists, you see their full expression. They don't feel muted or stilted. They can only get to that self-expression, they can only get to that level of ease by having more and more self-awareness and the self-awareness of how they work.Brett: That sounds similar to what might happen if somebody's looking at a to-do list of things they want to get done and they think efficiency is efficiently knocking out all the boxes, but what might be actually more efficient is asking themselves why they want to get that list done in the first place. Maybe, if there's one question they could ask themselves that removes half of that list, that is actually an increase in efficiency.It sounds like this is the personal version of doing that, like, "Why is it that I want to be getting these things done? Why is it that I want to be successful? What does success actually bring to me?"Joe: That's a beautiful point. That's exactly right. When I look at my list every morning, I always think about what can I do that will make this whole list irrelevant or easier? It's the same thing with the medalist in life. There's a beautiful technique that you can use, which is, "Okay, if I get that done, am I happy then?" Then my mind will usually go, "No, I'll need this," and say, "Okay, well, if I get that done, will I be happy then?" It can just go on and on.Brett: It's like making the one decision that can eliminate 100 other decisions. Finding, perhaps in many of these cases, the one need within us that resolves 100 other secondary needs that we thought we needed to fill.Joe: That's exactly it and that's what self-awareness does just by its nature.Brett: Great. You mentioned that your consciousness is the product that you're working on in that case. Let's dig into that a little bit more.Joe: That's the last part of what makes it an art form, is that, if you're looking at a piece of art, there's a way in which you can feel like a painting, you can feel how the artist was when they were painting. When the artist acknowledges that, then what the artist can do is really understand that their consciousness is what is being consumed. It doesn't matter if it's Facebook, or Ford, or Van Gogh, we're feeling the consciousness of those people who made it.We're feeling that experience. If they were anxious and nervous, then we're perpetuating anxiousness and nervousness. If they were worried about not having enough, they're going to make sure that we are worried about not having enough, when we use that product or when we consume their consciousness.[crosstalk]Brett: That seems even more true these days, as a lot more consumers are thinking about products that they feel much more personally aligned with rather than just, "Oh, look, it's a jug of milk." It's like, "No, because this is a jug of milk that treats cows in the way that is more agreeable to me." Or, "This is the company that is working on making more fuel-efficient or electric cars and that's something that really speaks to me." What you're saying is that, even a company, even a product, is a piece of art and that the consciousness of its creators should come through in that.Joe: It does. You just can't help it. There's a great quote that my friend Steve used to say to me, he said, "At the peak of a poet's career, he is a businessman and the peak of a businessman's career, he is a poet," or she is a poet or she is a businessman. It is an absolute truth, that how we get something done affects what the end product of our doing is. It's as simple as if we rush to sweep the porch, or if we enjoy sweeping the porch. We're going to get two different jobs done and it's going to look different at the end of it.Our consciousness affects it and it's the acknowledgment that that's the case, that the real gift that we're giving to the world is in the product, that's tangible, it's the product of our consciousness that we're delivering. Acknowledging that the consciousness is part of the equation of the product, that it is in part the product that we are producing and that other people are consuming, is what makes it an art form, not just a doing.Brett: I think another great example of that would be in software development. Any software that's developed by a team that's frenetically running around trying to finish completing their backlog, product and engineering aren't communicating with each other very well. That product is going to end up having that consciousness writ large in its implementation in bugs and missed-- like features that don't make sense, et cetera.Joe: Exactly. That's right.Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about our consciousness as the product of this work. A lot of people would see that as odds with business because the focus is moving away from perhaps the business itself towards yourself. What would you say to them?Joe: Again, it's a lot like the '70s with the environmentalist. You can make money cutting down trees. You can make money planting trees. You can make money making all of your product artistic. You can make money making all of your product as cheap as possible. There's a thousand ways to make money. Just walk down the street of any city and everything you look at has got 7 or 8 or 10 people making money behind it.There's infinite ways of making money. The idea that how we are when we make the money isn't part of that equation is just silliness. It's something that happens when people don't want to feel their whole experience and they make the excuse that, "Oh, it's just business." Or they make the excuse that I had to do this because it's business. The craziest thing is, you look at incredibly successful businessmen who are just merciless in their desire for winning competition or for quality or for customer service. They will  never allow a team to not deliver or allow a team to sacrifice the important things.Yet, as soon as the idea is like, "Oh, we can all be growing as humans," or that we can all be having full expression here comes up, they're like, "No, I can't do that." We can out-compete. We can build a billion-dollar company. We can out-compete over-resourced competition, but we can't also do it in such a way that we really enjoy ourselves. It's a ridiculous notion and it comes from an inner thought that they have that they can't be their full selves and be successful. That they had to cut off a part of themselves to be successful. That normally just comes from the fact that they had to cut out a part of themselves to make mom and dad happy. That's where it's really coming from. It's just very limited thinking.Brett: A belief that productivity and achievement requires sacrifice. If you're feeling sacrificed, that might mean you're on the right track to achievement.Joe: Let's take a look at that one for a second. Who sacrificed more, the men who created Google or the men who created Benelli Tires? Who worked harder? Who put their family at bigger risk? It's just nonsensical to think who worked harder. It's nonsensical to think that there is that level of sacrifice needed. There's people who make millions of dollars without it, millions of dollars with it. It's what do you enjoy? It's what do you love?If you love working 80 hours a week and you love that kind of productivity, don't tell everybody it's necessary. Just say it's what you did and you loved it. I listened to Elon Musk talk about this and he said, you have to work all the time and I thought to myself, "You had to work all the time when you had one company. Now you have three companies or four companies, or five companies and you're still working all the time, which really means that you only had to work 25% of the time to do the company that you originally did. You didn't have to work all the time. You're proving it."Brett: That's a really good point. A lot of people say that they have to get a paycheck and so all this art sounds great, but they're not in that position or maybe they're not running their own company. Maybe they're in some hierarchy in some organization or even if they do have their own company, they're just, "Well, I have to make money. I have to make money now. I have to make money with this particular runway. I just don't have time to make this an art."Joe: [laughs] I lived in Los Angeles for a while, I live next to this first generation from Central America family, just sweethearts. The son, when he decided it was time to go out to work, he was 18 years old and he worked at a subway. When he was working at the subway, he just did it with pizzazz. He did it with friendliness, he did it with joy. He did it with a bit of like a singing-- he was just one of those characters.You've had the experience, you've gone into someplace and there's somebody on the other side of the counter who's enjoying themselves and they're maybe singing or they got a little pizzazz, he was one of those people. He worked there I think for three weeks until somebody walked in and was like, "Hey, I have a restaurant and I need someone." Then within another six months, he was the Sous chef. Then he just kept on going.I don't know where he is now but that was the example to me, that it doesn't matter what you're doing. If you do it with artistry, you're creating the world that you want. The idea that you can't do that in any situation-- I mean, Mandela did it in a prison. How he wanted to be. The artistry that he was delivering to humanity was there when he was in a prison. To think that you can't do it because you're in a bureaucracy, it's just as limited of the thinking as a businessman saying, "We can't be whole humans and do business."The crazy thing about that that I think people don't recognize is if you think you can't do it because of your situation, then you're owning the position of a victim. It's like somebody whose life is oppressing them. If you have that position, there's only two people who really want to spend time with you, other victims and people who abuse you, because that's the only people who you have that value for.Other victims will be like, "Great, yes, we're oppressed. Let's all talk about how oppressed we are." The abusers are like, "Cool, you feel like you're oppressed? Great, I will oppress you. That's exactly what I need to get my world cranking." The mentality of that invites it, just like all of our mentalities invite the world that we see, to become real.Brett: Right. That could be an entire episode of its own and I'm sure it will be. How does a person get to this place then?Joe: There's three bits on how a person gets to seeing all of their accomplishment as art, to seeing that there's an art of accomplishment. The first is an intention. I don't call it a goal. I don't call it a mandate. It's just holding it in your consciousness that this is where I want to be. It's like looking at a map and saying Los Angeles is where I want to be, or San Francisco is where I want to be. It doesn't require any more weight than that.Brett: It's like an implementation agnostic goal.Joe: Yes, exactly. That's right. If you dig into that a little bit-- there's this story about an admiral. I can't remember his name, who it was, taken in the POW camps in Vietnam and he was asked, "Who got out of the camps?" He said, "That's easy. It was the people who knew they would get out." The interviewer asked then, “Who didn't get out of the camps?” He answered, "That's easy. It's the optimists."The interviewer was confused and said, "Optimist? What do you mean? How is that different than your first answer?" He said, "The optimists were the ones who thought they'd get out by Christmas, or by Easter, or by the rainy season. They were the ones that didn't make it." The intention is just holding that intention out there, knowing that you're going to arrive there. That's the first bit. The second bit is take it all as an iteration. There's no failure. There's no success.There's just I am learning by iterating and experimenting, iterating and experimenting, iterating and experimenting. I don't have to be hard on myself to learn lessons. I don't have to be hard on myself, because I had a certain timeframe. It's just a very gentle iteration, iteration, iteration, just the way you would think an artist would do after a 20-year career. They kept on playing, kept on trying and new and crazier things came out. Then the last part is to know that it's not really a doing.You asked, how does a person get there? It's not a doing, it's an undoing. We're just basically learning to undo a whole bunch of training and be in a natural state. I'll give you a great example of it. If you put your two hands together and put it like, let's say that the palms of your hands in front of your face and try as hard as you can to pull your hands apart.If your hands are apart right now, you're not trying, you're doing, so forget the doing and just go to the trying and try as hard as you can to pull your hands apart. Now without thinking about it, feel the exact opposite thing that you feel when you're trying. That's what it means to undo, you're undoing. That's what you do. To make all of your accomplishment artistry, to make life the art of accomplishment, then you're undoing.Brett: It's interesting. As I did that, during the trying, there's like a sense of planning going on throughout my entire system. Imagining which muscles I would move and how to move my hands apart. I can do all of that without actually moving at all. It feels like a good metaphor for beating myself up over a to-do list.Joe: Exactly. That's exactly it. Awesome. That's great.Brett: Then what are we undoing exactly and what does that help us accomplish, or how does that help us to accomplish things?Joe: The main thing that you're undoing is this misconception that you aren't inherently good. Basically, what we're undoing is a whole bunch of limiting beliefs. There's probably about seven main limiting beliefs, but they're all resting on one limiting belief. The one limiting belief is that you're not inherently good, that you have to put effort to make yourself good enough, of value, better, that it's not your natural place, that you're not there yet.If you think about an oak tree, when is an oak tree good enough? Is the oak tree good enough when it's an acorn or when it's 2 years old or when it's 150 years old or when it's collapsing, when it's becoming dirt, when is it good enough? When is it not inherently good? That's the thing that we think about ourselves is that we have someplace to be to get inherently good and or some way of being and what's actually preventing us from acting in an inherently good way is only the idea that we're not, it's only the idea that we've done something wrong--Brett: Right. I think that's a really good point, because there's a really big pitfall that I've experienced in personal development or trying to become more productive or work on my systems of accomplishment, where we start to see how everybody else is doing things and we're like, "Oh man. I need to get from where I am to where they are by somehow making myself better, because I'm not good enough. If only I had this person's system or that person's motivation and drive or that person's clarity. If I could get there, then I would be able to get things done," which just really does reinforce that, "Oh, I'm just not there yet. I just don't have it in me." Silently.Joe: Exactly, which just slows down the whole system. A baby doesn't think that they're bad, because they're crawling, they're going to walk. They don't need to think that they're bad, because they're crawling. It's just a natural part of the developmental cycle and there's that form of goodness and there's also the other form of goodness, which is every time you defend something in yourself, there's some way that you're believing that you're not inherently good, that you have to defend something about yourself.I don't mean defense like someone tries to throw a punch, you block it. I mean defense like someone accuses you of being bad and you think you have to justify something. What would make you need to justify something? If somebody came to you and said the sky is purple at noon, the sky is purple, would you really need to defend the fact that the sky was blue? There's some inherent belief system that there's something, that there's a shame, that there's something wrong with us and that's part of the inherent goodness that once you understand that that is your natural state, there's so much less to be doing, so much less.I'll give you an example for a second about how it works. Let's say one of the limiting beliefs that I see people do all the time is that perfection is more important than connection. They think that they need to be perfect because they think that they're not good enough or their thing needs to be perfect or their presentation needs to be perfect or their product needs to be perfect or the date needs to go perfect or whatever it is.They focus on that trying to make it perfect instead of how do I connect. They choose perfection over connection. If they choose connection, they're far more successful and they will choose it naturally if they don't think that they have to be perfect to be good enough or to be good. Specifically, how this works is, you can try to create the perfect product or you can try to create a product that's in connection with your customer and to stay in connection with your customer. The second is going to do much better than the perfect product. If you have a first date and you're trying to be perfect, that's not going to go so well.Even if they happen to have a second date for you, you've been trying to be perfect so they're not dating you, they're dating some idealized version of yourself and eventually that shit's going to go sideways. Whereas, if you just go for the connection, if you say, "Oh, how do I connect with this person? Let's see if it's a match." Then it's a far more productive stance. The place where it's most articulated is in meditation where people try to have the perfect experience of meditating instead of being in connection with themselves. It's the difference between torture and meditation. Meditation is connection. Managing yourself is torture.Brett: I spent a long time in meditation doing maybe an hour practice every day just because I was really stressed out about work and beating myself up over to-do list, the usual. I would meditate more and more and find that it would call my mind, but my goal in meditation was to call my mind not to feel what I needed to feel. That really just pulled me away from the emotions that were trying to help me update to my situation.Joe: I find that if you're trying to manage your experience, it's pulling you away from yourself instead of being with what you are and enjoying it.Brett: Tell me some more of those limiting beliefs.Joe: There's a couple others that I can think about. There is improvement instead of being authentic. That's the one that you mentioned earlier in the podcast, where you were talking about wanting to be better at this or better than that, instead of wanting to know what you actually are. I want to be enlightened instead of wanting to know what I am. Wanting to be enlightened path is a far slower path than wanting to know what I am.I want to work successfully 60 hours a week is far less effective than understanding what your natural rhythm is and what your natural way of being most productive is. It's that constant question of like trying to improve yourself instead of find out what your authenticity is.Brett: Or I want a hundred million users versus I want this to improve people's lives.Joe: Right. If it's authentic that you want a hundred million users, if that's really the thing that's going to charge you, then that might be your authenticity, but then the question is, what do you have to do that is authentic to you to get them, instead of how do I make my podcasts so great that they get them, that I get the users?Brett: What are some others?Joe: Other ones is shoulds before wants. I find people always are trying to motivate themselves with their shoulds instead of with their wants and wants are far more motivating and far more effective at getting us places. If you think about the first seven years of your life, you couldn't even have shoulds and then all of a sudden, shoulds show up and all your development slows down. You get more development in the first seven years of your life than you do pretty much at any other time of your life.It's when you stop following your wants and you start following your shoulds that everything gets slowed down. Again, like with both of these, the only way you would think, oh, I need to improve, instead of, I need to be authentic, is if you think that you're not inherently good. The only way you would think I should do that, instead of, I want to do that is because you think that you aren't inherently good.There's seven of them but the other one that's just coming to mind right now is the one we spoke about, defense versus love. That most of us immediately move to defend ourselves rather than love the person. The quintessential example of this is the boss tells you what you need to do to improve and most people get defensive, instead of saying to themselves, "Oh my goodness, my boss just took a social risk on me. Potentially risked our relationship, because he cared or she cared enough to help me be successful." We don't think, "Oh well, thanks. Thanks for taking the risk of telling me that."Brett: That's quite a flip on the usual script.Joe: Right, because we move from defense instead of love. These are all the ways and we only have to do that if we think we're not inherently good. That's what they are.Brett: How does seeing your inherent goodness tie into the art part of this art of accomplishment?Joe: If you see that you're inherently good, then obviously things become more enjoyable and more easy because there's less fight that you have with yourself. That's just simple. The more that you focus on your enjoyment, the more you stop having to fight with yourself. There is this quote that, "In a war with yourself, you're always going to lose." That enjoyment comes to a large degree because you're fighting with yourself has ceased or has slowed down. That happens when you see your inherent goodness. That's part of how that works.Then when you fully realize, that your consciousness is what is coming through whatever product you're creating, then the question is what's the consciousness that you want to give to other folks. If you're coming from a place of understanding your inherent goodness, then that's the product that you're going to be creating. It's one that ties people into their inherent goodness. It's not so limiting as one might think. Meaning, take a look at some of the great artists of our day. I'll use a comedian because it's the--Brett: For example?Joe: I'll give us an example because some people might not call him an artist but Jim Carrey. If you listen to his story and this is so much the case, it's like they were going about their career. It wasn't going so well. Then all of a sudden they just were like, "I am going all the way. I am not going to hold back. I am going to take the big risk of my full expression. I'm going to basically trust that if I just go all the way with myself, things are going to work out. I'm going to trust that goodness." All of a sudden, bolder and bolder things come out of the artist. Jim Carrey is an example of this.When we watch it, we think it's confidence. We're like, "Oh my God, that guy could do all that crazy stuff. How confident must he be?" It's really a confidence in something that's beyond them. It's a confidence in their inherent goodness. When you see that in people, we just naturally want to follow it. We just naturally want to be a part of that. It's why we see so much of that in some of the greatest movers and shakers of our time. People who've accomplished just amazing things in their lives is that full trust. I guess one of the ways to look at it, is to see it as it's like channeling. You can only channel if you trust what's coming through you.That channeling is what it starts to feel like when you're deeply in the art of accomplishment. A way to look at the art of accomplishment is like in some traditions they would call it channeling. They would call it cleaning out your tube so that you could have greater access to the thing that's moving through all of us. The animator of all life. Neurology would call it alpha waves but it's not flow state. Being in that flow state can only come when you can rely on your inherent goodness. If you're judging yourself, you're questioning yourself and you're in a fight with yourself, you can't be an alpha. You can't be in flow state.Brett: Another good way to describe that I think is just something, this idea of channeling is acting from something that's coming from outside of your identity of yourself. A lot of artists-- we were talking about artistry here. A lot of musicians have talked about how when they were in the flow and they were writing some of their biggest hits, they felt like it wasn't them doing the writing. It was just the words were coming through them. Joe: We've all had this experience. We've all had the experience of playing music without having to think about it or just channeling the emails and just knowing exactly what to write. We've all had the experience of being in that flow state and that only comes when we can trust our inherent goodness.Brett: I think that's the feeling people are trying to get at, when they're knocking out a to-do list, finding themselves in that flow. I think a lot of this is just it's not about the to-do list, it's about what it is that you actually want to be doing.Joe: It's about allowing the lack of fight to be in your system. Our system by nature doesn't want to fight with itself. To allow that to happen really allows the flow state to occur. The final bit is as I think you already mentioned it, it's the self-awareness, which is the only way that we're ever going to see that we're inherently good is for us to see what we inherently are. It requires us to drop the stories of ourselves and the ideas of ourselves and it requires us to love the ego right into oblivion.That self-awareness is what allows us to see that we're not just channeling it, we are it. That we thought we were small, but what we really are is part of everything. When we see ourselves as everything, when our identity switches from the little me to the whole, then the inherent goodness is all. Everything is in that inherent goodness. There's just a piece that comes with it. That's why, when you see those artists who have 50 years at the carving table and you see just this piece in them, the piece of artistry, of a deep artistry, that's where it comes from.Brett: As we start to view accomplishment more as an art, what is going to change about the way that we do things and how do we address that fear that might exist, that getting into this personal development stuff is going to make us even for a period of time, less productive? If we have a 18-hour Workday right now and that's the thing that we're doing and it just feels like the whole house of cards is going to collapse if we just take one day off from that, what's the step forward?Joe: That's a great question. They did this great study in the US Army. The study was that they took two tests that were the same test, but different reliable and whatnot. They took a group of soldiers in boot camp and they just worked them to death and had them sleep-deprived. Then they put them in front of the test and they did the test and then they let them rest for a couple of days, RNR and then they came back. They weren't sleep-deprived and they did the test.They asked the soldiers of these two tests, which one did you think you scored better at and which one do you think you did quicker? 80% of the people thought that they had done quicker work and more accurate work on the first test when they were sleep-deprived. In actuality, 100% of them did better when they had rest and they were not being rushed through the whole situation. It tells us that we have a mental illusion that happens, like an optical illusion. We think that when we're busy and we were sleep-deprived and we're running around checking off boxes, we think we're more efficient when in actuality we're not. Brett: The multitasking studies as well, where they proved that people really do not multitask. They just think they multitask, but their performance actually degrades.Joe: Exactly. It's exactly the same principle. The first thing is to acknowledge that situation. Then to start to disassociate the idea of ease with productivity. Some people, because they're only productive when they're in friction, they think that productivity is friction. To see, to really find real ways of measuring, "Are you getting the stuff done and not working as hard or enjoying yourself more?" They really find that out.It's interesting. This culture, it's, "You didn't work 60 hours, why are you lazy?" In other cultures that have been doing particularly Southern Europe, they're like, "You had to work 60 hours to get your job done? Why are you so incompetent?" It's just a completely different way to take a look at it. That's the first thing to know. The second part of your question is how do things change? Well, you get bigger things done. You get things that are more aligned in your system done. You don't sacrifice your well-being from the accomplishment of your career or your money but you don't sacrifice your career and your money, so that you can have better well-being.The dichotomy starts to go away and you see that your work is a means to an end of your well-being. That the well-being is a means and an end to your work. That they become the same thing. They stop becoming separate in your system. The nervous system starts to relax. You start doing things like, "Oh, I can move this lever here and I just have to wait for a couple of months and everything will fall into place." Or, "I could put two weeks in and I will have it done in one month instead of two."You start to see these little leverage points. You start to see the world more as a system. The way the artist talk about it is-- like carving artists, they'll talk about, that they see the work in the wood, before they even get started. It's not about, "I have an idea of what I want it to look like and I'm going to carve it into the wood." It's like the wood is telling me what it wants to be carved into. What it wants to be made into.That's the experience of life in general. Is that you're following. The Daoists talk about it as the way of water. Water doesn't require any effort to get to the ocean. It just follows. It just goes to the lowest point. It is effortless in its way. It is more powerful than any sword. Try to fight water with a sword and you'll know. That's the way that it starts to feel. That life starts to feel.Brett: So, what you were saying earlier, is that a lot of this work is actually an undoing. An undoing of the limiting misconceptions of self?Joe: If you look at the martial arts, they really subscribe a lot of the same theory to what I'm talking about. One of the ways is that your whole body is relaxed until the moment of impact. If I was going to tense the whole time and hit you, my punch is a lot less powerful than if I'm relaxed the whole time and then tense right before I hit you. It's conserving your energy and making you stronger at the same time. Making your movement have more impact. We somehow think walking around tense all the time is going to make us more effective. It's just ridiculous.Brett: Right. Also keep us narrowed and focused too. If we're walking around tense about all the things that we're thinking about getting done, we're not asking the bigger questions, that really help us find that one decision that can eliminate a hundred decisions. A lot of what you're talking about, this idea of breaking down these misconceptions of the self and trusting and leaning back into our inherent goodness. Letting go of the trying and just being in the doing.A lot of that allows us, our entire nervous system and our minds to relax and see outside of the boxes of any of the shorter-term tasks of thinking that we're doing which, really helps us to really guide our lives out of grander scale and then drive our businesses. Kids spend several months working on go, go, go. Getting one particular project done. Pushing one feature, that part way through the process we could have easily, if we had a big enough view, determined the landscape had changed and that this is becoming a waste of effort.Joe: It happens on fractal levels. It happens on, "Wow, I've just spent 20 years creating a life that I don't want." It happens on, "I just spent two months doing a project, that my boss really didn't give a shit if I did and I just spent the last two minutes worrying about something that I could have spent creating something."Brett: I think that's one of the things that makes this so counterintuitive is that often it's just much easier to think, "Oh, I'm almost there. I just need to do this, that and the other things, that are in line with my past 20 years of plan and that would get me there," which is a much easier thing to experience for many, than the recognition that maybe 20 years of my life has been spent further and further away from my authenticity.Joe: Right and getting me there is the crux. That's the bit, the idea that where you are right now isn't good enough. You see this all the time in business where you see somebody who's been successful talking to somebody who's trying to be successful. The person who's trying to be successful is like, "Well, you're able to be so confident, so being able to say yes or no to things, so nonchalant about opportunities, because you already have success." There's some truth to that. There's no doubt about it, but what I've seen is that the people who hold that position, invite the success, more than they get it.What I notice in my business is that the more that I became picky, the more that I decided it just wasn't worth it if I didn't do the thing that I wanted to do. I started rejecting clients, or I started rejecting investments, or I started rejecting really good deals, then all of a sudden, more and more good deals, more and more good clients started showing up. That comes when you aren't in that place of fear that you need to prove something. To be good enough, to be loved, it comes when you can trust your inherent goodness.Brett: I think that speaks a lot to this reciprocal nature of accomplishment versus personal development, where it seems that, many of us think that accomplishment is going to give us the confidence and so if we just go for accomplishment first, then we'll have the confidence. What you're saying is that we can build the confidence. We can build not just a false sense of confidence, but if we are confident in who we actually are, then that will lead to the accomplishment, which then can feedback-- because there is a little bit of feedback loop.Like you said, once you've been successful doing something, it definitely helps you feel that way. We can actually work on that personal side directly and everything else is downstream of there.Joe: I wouldn't even call it confidence. It's like the closest word that our society knows to put on it, because confidence feels like-- at least the way it's interpreted is "I'm good enough or da, da, da." It's not really I'm good enough. It's just, I know what I am. I just know what I am. I know what I like. I know what I want and I am committed to being a full expression of that.That's the key thing and that knowing who you are and really finding out, that's what the real cool part about the whole journey is, right? Because to do that, you have to see that you're inherently good. Then to do that, you have to see what you inherently are and then that requires us to drop these stories and our ideas of ourselves and it requires us to just allow the ego to be loved into oblivion. Brett: That transforms us into an artist.Joe: Yes and the artist transforms us into that. To see ourselves as everything, allows us to have that energy when we move in the world instead of to see ourselves as this limited thing.Brett: Great. Well, thanks again for your time.Joe: Thank you. A pleasure.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.com 

The problem with getting good at managing your life is that you end up with a life that has to be managed. What would happen if you found out that focusing on enjoying your life could make you more productive and happier than managing your life? We know most of the greats enjoyed what they did. What if enjoyment is an essential part of what makes us great?"Imagine that you are on a boat and you are going down a river. Management is when you are fighting against the river, but when you are in that effortless flow of the river, there's an enjoyment to it. What you have to do is,  you have to be listening to that river deeply. You have to be listening to that impulse."We're told all of our lives that if we want results, we have to manage ourselves and the world around us in order to get what we want. What if that isn't true? What if intention and determination are critical, but managing life gets in the way? What if the way to get the life we want is to focus on enjoying our life, not only by doing what we enjoy, but also by learning to enjoy whatever is happening? This is what Joe and I will be getting into today.Brett: Joe, what makes this an important topic for you?Joe: There's a personal story behind it. When I was really young in my career, I did international stock lending for a while. I was still sorting through so much of my personal issues at the time. I decided in my head what I really wanted was to have a creative career. That was something that I decided, which was far out there that I had to attain, instead of realizing that it was really available, if I had the right perspective. I quit this great job as far as money goes and as far as career path goes. I went for seven years trying to have a creative career. There was this place where I had basically reached it. I was working on this TV show and I had written something. I was being brought in to train, to direct the show. I did this two-week stint on the show and I realized it was the same thing that international stock lending was, meaning that everything that I had run away from in international stock lending, I was running to in this creative career. One person had all the power. Everybody was working long, hard hours. They were unhappy. I remember the actor of the TV show saying to me, "Every time I come into work, it's like having a piece of my soul ripped out." Everybody wanted to be doing something else and not the thing that they were doing. They had some dream of the next level of their career. Most people weren't leaving because of the money. I said, wow, that's exactly the thing I was running away from and running to. I had spent all these years of my life trying to manage this outcome. I had finally achieved it, but I didn't have any idea that it wasn't the thing that I wanted. At that moment, the revelation came on me and I said, "Wow, you know what I'm going to do instead, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to say yes to whatever shows up. If I enjoy it, I'll keep on saying yes. If I don't enjoy it, I'll say no."Then all of a sudden, there was more and more stuff to say yes to and so I got to keep on picking the things that were more enjoyable. As that happened, everything took off; my money, my happiness, my career, everything in ways that I couldn't even have expected. It was like I had surrendered and I allowed that surrender into my own enjoyment to lead my life. All of a sudden, I was surrounded by a life that I enjoyed.I neither enjoyed stock lending, nor did I enjoy trying to become an artist nor did I enjoy being the artist, but I ended up enjoying my life, not by managing it, but by focusing on the enjoyment. That's why it's important to me. I think why it's important to talk about in general is, because it's the biggest misconception that a lot of people have is they think that if they're going to manage their life, they're going to end up with a life that makes them happy. In actuality, if you learn to manage your life, you end up with a life that you need to manage and that is not happiness.Brett: What does it mean to manage your life in the way that you're describing?Joe: One way to think about it is, intellectually, you're trying to assure an outcome. When I was directing films, one of the things that I really realized in that process was that, if I had a very specific outcome in mind of how the actors were going to do their thing, it was horrible. The result was horrible. Everything was horrible. The process was horrible. If instead, I gave the actor's direction and then I just waited until it felt right and I just allowed that impulse to carry us and go, "That's it. That's going to work," without the idea specifically of how it was going to be, the results were far better.That's one way to think about the difference between management and non-management is that you're not holding really specific future outcomes. You're holding the intention of the scene is going to be great and it's going to be emotional. You're holding the intention. The actors are holding the intention of whatever it is for them, getting the person to say they love them and getting out of the room, whatever their intentions are. Everybody's holding their intentions, but the outcome is something that you are recognizing when it's right. It's not something that you're being specific and controlling about.There's this implicit feeling of trying that happens when you are doing management and trying is very different than doing. Doing is just the action. It's like in mental waves, you think about doing as alpha. There's this flow state that happens and it's just everything's happening and there's not a lot of tension in it. Managing life is when you feel like you have to bring tension into the process to get it your way.Another great example of this, I think, that's really palpable is I see this with clients all the time is they're thinking about a big conversation they have to have. Maybe it's with their husband, maybe it's with their boss, maybe it's with a good friend. They're trying to figure out how they're going to say it in such a way that they're going to get the outcome that they want, instead of thinking about, what's the authentic way for them to say, what's their deepest truth that they're trying to share and let the chips fall where they may. If they're in the first, then they're in management and if they're in the second, then they are not in management.Brett: I think that film example is actually a great one, because in filmmaking, in production, you often have an art department that's trying to make exactly the igloo that's in the treatment for the director, when maybe they could make any number of igloos that fit the theme and that would work great in the scene. Many other parts of the scene are likely to drift through the course of production from the treatment. There are ways to flow with that and there are ways to try to manage every single detail, which you just ended up having the entire crew fighting reality for a while.Joe: It's something that I've realized. When I'm running businesses and I want something a specific way where it's creative or someone's doing something creative, like copy editing or some visual aspect or building slides, I've realized that if I just give them three adjectives, just I want it to be reliable, grounded and empowering, then the results are far better than if I start thinking I know how to design something. I'm like, well, it should be a little more blue and turn this a little bit this way. That broad stroke thing. We know that people in general, in the management of people, respond a lot better and are a lot more motivated, if they feel like they have autonomy. That doesn't mean that they don't want direction. It means they don't want management in the way that I'm talking about management.Brett: Right. I see that a lot in design as well. Micromanagement of design is a great way to get terrible work from a good artist.Joe: Exactly. That's everything. There's a way of looking at every person's role as an artistry. You're going to get bad work out of everybody's artistry in that. The other way to look at it is to imagine that you're on a boat and you are going down a river. Management is when you're fighting against the river. When you are in the flow of the river, even if your paddle's in the water every once in a while and you're doing that stuff, but when you're in that effortless flow of the river, there's an enjoyment to it and there's a non-management. When you're fighting against the river, then you're in the management.For that to happen, you have to not be managing a river, which obviously never really works. What you have to do is, you have to be listening to that river deeply. You have to be listening to that impulse. When people are in management mode, they usually are not listening to their internal impulse, or the impulse of the people around them.Brett: It sounds like a distinction to be made here is, management is to try to fight reality to conform to your results and enjoyment in this concept is more combining your intention with the randomness of reality and seeing what happens.Joe: Yes, that's right. I work with a lot of executives and this is one of the hardest things for the executives to really catch on to because they have all made a living in being able to have this determination and drive to get the results. Many of them have used management to get there. That determination and drive, that utter unacceptance of a result that's different than the one that you want, is really critical, but you need to be very general about the result that you want. It can be general like I want a company that's super successful. I want a product that sells better than all the competition. That's great.When you start managing that process and want it to be this specific way. You want it to have this kind of sales technique. You want to have, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then that's when it goes south. You have to keep all that determination. You have to keep all that fortitude. You have to keep all that utter unacceptance of a reality that you don't envision and there is also reading the river and letting the river flow and paying attention to that river and following it to get there.Brett: A lot of this seems to happen by buying in the moment like, "Oh, no, this has to happen because if this doesn't happen this particular way, then the entire plan is ruined." Without this 30,000-foot view that we're discussing right now, how would you know in the moment, if you are managing rather than following your intention? What are some ways to mindfully recognize this in the process?Joe: One of the things that I see managers do, since we're on management, specifically, one of the things that I see managers do is they don't ask this question. They don't say, "What speaks against that?" Let's say I come into a room and I say I want to sell in question-based selling and then we're talking to the sales team. I'm like, "Let's do question-based selling." I might try to convince everybody and push everybody into it, motivate everybody and give a good speech. Everybody's like, "Yes, let's do question-based selling."What is usually far more effective and that tells you that you're not in the management of that experience is to say, "Let me give a good case for question-based selling. Here it is. Now, tell me what speaks against it?" People will tell you, "Here are the things that we don't think will work about it." That tells you the things that you have to address. Then you address them and then you're in the flow of the situation. Then you're like, "Okay." Most likely, you're going to get a much better solution because the things that they want you to address are important to address. If you can't address them, then you don't have real buy-in. Without real buy-in, they're not going to do as good of work. Without real buy-in, it probably means that there's a better solution out there. That's one of the ways to know is, if you're trying to push people into a result instead of being eager to find out what speaks against it. When you're listening to what speaks against it, your results are going to be far better. That's one way to know it.Brett: There's a delicious irony there, the idea of trying to sell a sales team on a sales process about question-based selling without asking any questions.Joe: I hadn't thought of that in my example. Yes, exactly. That would be incredibly ironic. Yes, exactly. It's why question-based selling works is, because you're not managing the customer. You're actually empathizing with, following the customer. You're following the river instead of trying to manage the river. That's one way to know it.Other ways are, when you're more listening to the outcome than you are to the impulse. Right now if you listen for the impulse, as to what to say next, that's a very particular somatic experience. You can still have determination in this experience. You can still be feeling like, "Oh, we're going to get to a resolution and I can be listening," and waiting for the impulse to speak. That's all a very possible situation. But when I want your next sentence to be something or I want my sentence to do something to you, to get to a particular place, then I'm in management.Brett: That adds another filter in the process of what you're going to say when you have to think about how you think it's going to be received.Joe: Exactly.Brett: Which then builds in all of your projections into the conversation.Joe: Yes, totally. It also builds a tremendous amount of inefficiency. When you're managing stuff, what you are always doing is not looking at the root cause. As an example, which is a more enjoyable car to own? Is it an MG or is it a Lexus? Most people who don't like fixing cars would say a Lexus is a far more enjoyable car to own than an MG, because you know with an MG, every 500 miles, you have the thing up on blocks and you have to do something.When you are in management, you're just constantly trying to figure out how to fix the MG with the least amount of money and as quickly as possible. When you're in enjoyment, you're looking at the core issue. If you are looking at the core issue, everything becomes far more efficient. You're not trying to patch the boat as it's sinking. Instead, you're thinking, "What's the right boat to build?"Brett: Getting out of context to the bigger question.Joe: Exactly.Brett: We have learned to manage things for a reason, many would propose. Don't you have to manage some level of things for anything to get done? If so, where is that line?Joe: It's not where you think it is, that's for sure. What I mean to say is, if you ask the people at Hyatt, "Hey, man, do you have to manage your properties?" They'd say, absolutely. If you ask the people at Airbnb, "Do you have to manage your properties?" They'd say no. If you ask SK Telecom and all those telecom companies that tried apps before Apple, "Did you have to manage your apps, the building of the apps?" They'd say, "Yes, absolutely. We need to manage it," but Apple said, "No, we don't. As long as they hit a minimum requirement, they can be on the App Store." If you think about all your great employees, how much management do they actually require? It's the people that you're managing that are not usually your great employees.Brett: Maybe because you're managing them so hard.Joe: Indeed. Do you have to manage and what's the boundary? The answer is that the better your system is in place, the better you have the mechanism working, the less management is necessary. Every place that you are managing is basically a way to look at an inefficiency that you have. If you build a really good machine, say like an iPhone, you don't have to manage the iPhone. You and I have never said the word, "Well, I really had to manage my iPhone yesterday." It's because it works.Brett: We might have to manage our iPhone use and that arises from inefficiencies in our attention.Joe: Exactly. That's right. Even that, that's the self-management part, which is you can say, "I need to manage my cell phone use," or you can turn off all your notifications. You can turn your phone into black and white and don't allow for color usage on your phone. Or you can turn on the sleep mode. There's all things that you can do, so that you don't actually even have to manage your cell phone usage, so that it's all done systematically.Brett: Or I can find out what it is in my emotions that makes me want to go to Instagram and start scrolling.Joe: Yes, exactly. All different levels of it. Even managing your own state is ineffective. In fact, that's the thing about meditation generally, is that most people call sitting still and trying to manage your state of mind meditation. It's not meditation. It's torture. Enjoyment of sitting there is meditation. Yes, management is going to happen. This isn't something that you get upset about. Is it something that you're going to never have to do in your whole life? No, but every time you're managing something, you can absolutely see it as a chance to become more efficient and the way that you find that efficiency is through enjoyment.Brett: That's great.Joe: The other thing that happens here, oftentimes when people are talking about they're like, "Yes, but I got to manage my company. I got to tell people what to do." Then you look at other companies. There's this company called Valve. There's this Valve Handbook, which is just amazing. The way they manage what they do, is they figured out how to choose really good people. They have a whole thing about that and then when you get to Valve, you have a desk that's on wheels. Where you push your desk is what projects they do. There's not even somebody saying, "Okay, these are the projects we're going to do. Here's our big initiatives." They literally just have people roll their desks to what they want to do and those are the initiatives that get done in the company.If you look at our entire economy. We have four tools to manage our economy and we don't do it very well. There's just interest rates and how constraining the laws are for businesses, et cetera. Our whole economy doesn't have a manager and yet, we're the biggest economy in the world. So far, we have been the most resilient economy in the world. Is there really a need for management? Is there really a need for that level of centralization? There may be in certain circumstances but guaranteed there is a more efficient system out there and when somebody finds it, they will be the winner of that business and their life will be more enjoyable.Brett: It sounds like, if somebody wants to start experimenting with loosening management and finding more enjoyment, there seems to be a requirement for a certain amount of slack in the system. If you're running a company that's just barely making payroll month after month after month and you imagine that if you just stopped managing people in the way that you're currently managing them and you even have one or two hiccups then everything is all over. Or imagine in a life, where somebody's like, "Well, I'm working three jobs right now to make ends meet. If I just started focusing on enjoyments, then if I left one of those jobs, then I'm not going to feed my family." How would you respond to there being a feeling for a need for slack or people's fear that they don't have enough slack to try an experiment in this way?Joe: I would say that they're looking at enjoyment in a backwards way, meaning there's one way to look at enjoyment, which is, "Here are the things that my head says that I will enjoy when I do it, like me having a creative career." Your head doesn't really know what you're going to enjoy. You can try to organize a life where everything you do is enjoyable, meaning that you've chosen things to do that you enjoy, that you think you enjoy, or you can learn to enjoy the things that you're doing.I'll give you an example of this. When I was 27 years old or something like that, I did this experiment where I said, "I'm not going to do anything I don't enjoy for a month and see how that goes." After the first three or four days, it was everything that I enjoyed. I took a nap when I wanted to take a nap, I did everything I wanted, then the trash started smelling. I was like, "Well, I'm not enjoying living with no trash and I don't enjoy taking out the trash. What the hell am I going to do?" I learned, "Wow, how do I take out the trash and enjoy myself? How do I write emails and enjoy myself? How do I pay bills and enjoy myself." I don't enjoy not having bills unpaid or having a bad credit rating. That's not enjoyable for me.The only way to really get to a life that you enjoy is to not avoid the intensity. It's not to run away from difficult things. It's finding the pleasure in whatever you're doing. It has to be a major part of the equation. If you have three jobs and you need the three jobs to get by, then learn to enjoy the jobs that you have. Learn how to do them with more enjoyment and watch, when you do your job with more enjoyment, your job changes pretty darn quickly. People want to be around people who are enjoying themselves. People want to work with people who are enjoying themselves and people will be attracted to you, people will give you more opportunities.It's the same thing in your business. Maybe you don't have the ability to reinvent your organization, where the management is so low that people are deciding their own payroll and people on the bottom line of a company like the manufacturing line of a company are deciding what $3 million pieces of equipment to buy. Those are companies that are run like that and maybe you can't get there tomorrow. Maybe it's not even smart for your company to get there, but the question that you can always ask is, "What's making this so unenjoyable and how do I enjoy this process?" That is going to build efficiency in your company.The thing is that there's somebody in mind right now when they're listening to me and they're saying, "This isn't necessary. I can be successful without enjoying myself." That is so true. You can be successful financially. You can accumulate a lot of power. You can have a good looking mate on your side. You can have all the toys that you want and not enjoy yourself. That's absolutely 100% the case. They're not actually being correlated-- that success and enjoyment. There's a lot of people that are successful who don't enjoy themselves and there's a lot of people that are successful who do enjoy themselves. What I am saying is that you can have both. If you are having both, you're finding efficiencies.Brett: Yes. Let's define enjoyment then. A lot of people think of enjoyment as there is a sense of control. People have the freedom to do what they want to do, but a lot of what it seems like you're describing with enjoyment is that it doesn't really require freedom. For example, you could be working three jobs and be micromanaged and potentially find enjoyment in what you're doing. Can you talk a little bit more about that?Joe: Yes, absolutely I can. There are people in jail right now enjoying themselves. There are people on this earth right now, who are sitting in three by three cells who haven't lied down in two years, two months and a day who are doing it to learn how to enjoy themselves. That's part of the Lama tradition. The enjoyment is available to you right now. Right now I can say to everybody who's listening to this, "Hey, enjoy yourself just a little bit more right now. Just a little. Just allow a little more enjoyment in this moment."Brett: My entire body just relaxed a little bit.Joe: Right. Exactly. What did that take? Your conditions did not change at all. You're in the same space. You have the same bank account. You have the same girlfriend. Nothing has changed and you just enjoyed yourself a little bit more. Enjoyment doesn't cost anything. Enjoyment is just a perspective. It's just an allowing. It's just a receiving. It's visceral. It requires us to be a little more present. That's it. It requires us, maybe to be a little bit more in our body, but it's not something that is ever inaccessible to us.Brett: It sounds like this is definitely an internal thing as well. We've been talking a lot about enjoyment in our environment, in our circumstances, in our businesses, in our organizations. How does this management and enjoyment dynamic work internally in the way that we just experienced?Joe: Yes, it's a bit of a mystery exactly how it works. What I've seen is that, internally, there is a capacity to feel pleasure that is almost like a muscle. It's a nervous system thing, but it feels like it's a muscle in the fact that you can build it. You can build the capacity for this feeling of enjoyment in your life and this feeling of pleasure. There's a certain amount of overwhelm that happens when you feel too much of it. Your level of too much is going to be different than my level of too much, which is going to be different than person C's level of too much.Brett: What makes it be too much?Joe: I'll tell you what I think it is. If you put your hands together, put your hands like your thumb and your fingers all together and then intertwine your fingers. Now, intertwine your fingers in the opposite way so that your hand looks the same but your pinkies have switched positions. You'll notice that one of those ways is comfortable. The first way is comfortable and the second way is uncomfortable.Brett: Yes, interesting.Joe: Pleasure being too much is very much like that. It's just what you're used to. It's very much a level of comfort based on what you're used to and based on what your nervous system feels safe handling. If your nervous system had to be on high alert to feel safe as a child, then there's a low level of pleasure that you are going to allow yourself an enjoyment that you're going to allow yourself because you're going to feel unsafe. If you were deeply nurtured as a child, then that level of pleasure and enjoyment is going to be much higher. We can train our nervous systems to start accepting higher and higher levels of pleasure.Brett: It seems like there's an inverse relationship between enjoyment and letting our guard down. The more enjoyment we're experiencing, the more down our guard must be and there's some baseline level of guard that we must viscerally believe is required to be safe. Does that make sense?Joe: Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. What you're basically saying there is, that you have to believe that a certain level of defense is necessary, to be able to protect yourself, which also means that you don't believe that you can respond in the moment, that you have to be prepared. That is one of the main things that creates us not listening to our impulse, not watching the river, is that idea that we have to be prepared so we're not in the present moment handling the thing that's in front of us. Or that we're in the future in a way that's very hard. We're not in the future in a soft way.You can be in the future and be like, "I'm dreaming the future and have intentions in the future," but most of the time when we're in the future, we're trying to control the future. That's like the perfect example of management. We do this internally all the time. We're literally having conversations in our heads to control the future. Have you noticed that the conversations that you've had about how you want the future to go, they have never worked out specifically as you planned? You think about how you're going to have the conversation 10 different ways and it never happens that way. It always happens differently.We're thinking about our thoughts. We're trying to manage our future. It never works out and it's definitely not enjoyable. That's called spin. We're just spinning. Now, I imagine that you're in that conversation with that person and you're just listening to the impulse and focused on enjoying the conversation.Brett: Which results in a lot more listening to what they're saying as well.Joe: Exactly and it helps them feel connected with you. You feel more heard and they feel more heard. The conversation goes better. It's the same thing internally. Internally, we're trying to manage ourselves all the time. "Hey, lose weight. Hey, get more in shape. Hey, you should listen more. Hey, you should stop managing." Whatever it is that your brain is constantly telling yourself you should manage and it doesn't work very well. It's not the most efficient way by any stretch.We do this in meditation and we do this in yoga. Now, what is it like to meditate and focus on enjoyment? Not just doing something that you enjoy, but also enjoying what you're doing. Now, what is it like to do yoga and focus on enjoyment or crossfit for that matter? What's the internal thing that you do when you're managing and how effective is it compared to enjoyment?The amazing thing is, I could say to somebody, "Hey, look, whatever internal exercise you do, just focus on enjoyment. Just enjoy that exercise. That's your number one thing to do." Most people won't, because they're like, "Enjoyment is scary," subconsciously, but if they do it, what they notice is that they do it a lot more, because it's more enjoyable. If meditation isn't enjoyable, you don't keep on meditating. If working out isn't enjoyable, you don't keep on working out.The enjoyment propels the practice. Telling yourself you should do it and you really have to do it and you have to do better and stronger da-da-da, it's not very enjoyable and so you stop doing it. The other thing that's important here to say is, that the reason you think you have to manage yourself is, because you don't see that you're inherently good. You don't believe in your inherent goodness. You believe that you're like some lazy gluttonous asshole, if you were left to your own devices and that you need to be whipped into shape.If you believe that about yourself, then that's who you're going to end up being. If you believe that you are inherently good, you want what's best for you and for the people around you and that you want to have an active, enjoyable, fulfilling life, then why on earth would you need to be managed for? If you want that stuff, what would make it, that you wouldn't just naturally do it?Brett: It seems that that would also show up in the way that you manage or treat your employees or expect to be managed or treated by a boss.Joe: Yes. Any boss you've ever had who is a micromanager, I guarantee you they micromanage themselves horribly. If they're not depressed now, they will be. If they don't have major anger issues, they will have. Any boss that you have, that is constantly in fear of how you are behaving is constantly in fear about how they're behaving. It's just the nature of it. The self-development-work works so well in companies, is because you are projecting your internal relationship externally.Brett: Yes, let's dig into more about how this management enjoyment dynamic shows up in relationships.Joe: Yes. Here's the story that I think freaks everybody out and it's very apropos. I have two girls. I don't think there's any time I punish them and I don't think my wife ever punished them. We got angry from time to time. That absolutely happened. I'm sure they felt ashamed from time to time, though we did our very best not to ever shame them. The thought process then is that, well, your kids must be spoiled and that your kids must not do what they're told and your kids must not behave well.If you get into my home, what you find out is that my kids are amazing kids. It's so palpable that when people come they're like, "Wow, you have amazing children. How did you raise them?" That question gets asked all the time. Even after they see our kids, most people are dumbfounded that that's how we did it. We trusted that they wanted to be connected with us. We trusted that they wanted to be connected with themselves. When they were connected with themselves, they would show up thoughtfully and lovingly and with care. That's what they did. That's how it worked out. We never said to them, "Hey you're a bad person. Hey, you're naughty and we need to control that naughtiness." That never happened. They never believed that they were naughty. They just saw that we saw them as good and they ended up as good.Obviously, some adults, that would take years and years and years of treating them that way for them to act that way. I'm not suggesting that you go around and go into a maximum security prison and treat all of them like they're amazing people who are inherently good, because unless they believe that, there's going to be friction to get to that point. In general, that's the way that you walk around in a relationship. The way you walk around is that you find out what's motivating them, find out what's moving them, find out what they want to do and follow that flow instead of saying, "This is what I want you to do and do that."You see this happen all the time. One person convinces another person to join a project. If I'm hiring somebody for a project, I basically say, "What's your dream job?" If they're not really close to the job that I have in mind, it's not a good fit. I'd rather have somebody whose dream job it is, to do the job that I have in mind than to convince someone to do something because, eventually, I'm going to have to manage them. It's something that I learned in making investments. What I realized was that the amount of management that it took to make a deal happen was the same amount of management that I would have to consistently provide to make the deal work. Then that's really inefficient investing. I've learned that if I had to manage to get a deal done, I just would not do the deal. It was the deals that happened with a certain amount of flow and ease that then continued with that same amount of flow and ease. Obviously, there's ups and downs with everything, but generally, that flow and ease was far more likely.Brett: There's also that disempowering factor of managing. If you invest in somebody's company and then you manage them, you're really saying that you don't trust their idea, unless it's done the way you think it should be done.Joe: Yes, that's right.Brett: That brings me back to that prison example, as well. You could go to a maximum-security prison and yes, on one hand, you can't just relax all the restrictions and behave as though everybody knows their inherent goodness, but we could actually stop doing a lot of the things that we do that reinforce the, "I am bad belief." There's a lot of talk about how the system reinforces itself.Joe: Absolutely. You can go in and treat every single person in a maximum-security prison like they are good people. That absolutely will help them. There's a great video documentary called Being Human. If you look it up online, Leonard, Being Human, you will see an example of somebody who has killed a woman and her child. The grandmother of that woman and the child showed him a certain amount of love that changed his life and you can see it. It's absolutely doable and that's how it works in relationships.The other thing is when you're trying to be managing a relationship, you don't want to be in the damn relationship. There's some part of you, whether it is you are getting sold a car and the person is trying to manage you into buying the car, you don't want to be in the relationship. That salesperson isn't as successful. They know that the best car salesmen are the ones who focus on having a good relationship and that don't try to sell the car and they outperform the ones trying to sell the car, usually, four or five to one.It's the same thing we see in our love life; our husbands, our wives, our girlfriends/boyfriends, that when we are trying to manage the other person's mood, there is less love. When we are trying to manage the other person's reaction, there is less love, there's less enjoyment in the relationship. If you are enjoying the person, there's a lot less management. If you're enjoying the moment, there's a lot less management.Brett: In the prison example, you can have boundaries.Joe: You can have boundaries without having to manage anything. A boundary is following an impulse. That's a great point. Having a boundary is basically the deepest act of non management on some level. The reason it is is because what you're saying is, "Here's what I'm going to do," and then you allow the other person to do what they are going to do, which is like, "Hey, what I know is that interacting in this kind of relationship isn't working for me. If I'm going to continue to act in this relationship, then what I want is to not have a lot of yelling and I want it to be respectful and kind." Now, that person can leave and they might leave you. It's really non management. It's just saying, "This is what I'm game for, this is what I'm willing to do in this world." That's what non management is to a large degree. That's what creates an enjoyable life even if it's scary to get there.Brett: It sounds like what you've been saying would be also if a partner is going to leave you and then you're going to have a lot of uncomfortable feelings, because of that and sadness, then that is also something to be enjoyed.Joe: Absolutely.Brett: Or we're going to be trapped by it.Joe: Right, that's another way. Most of what we are trying to manage in our life is an emotional reality. We're trying to manage emotions, trying to not feel heartbreak when our lover leaves us, trying to not feel like a failure if our boss gets angry at us. The non management of those emotional states and when I say non management, I don't mean that now you're like a puddle on the floor throwing temper tantrums and throwing tennis rackets around your house.I'm not saying non management in that way. I'm saying allowing yourself to feel the emotions fully, not act out on them, but allowing the non management of emotions so that you can actually feel them fully and you're not trying to push them down and repress them and hold your muscles to not feel them or judge other people not to feel them. That is a far more productive way of changing patterns in your life, than all the management of telling yourself you should do this or do that. You even mentioned it at the beginning of the podcast. You talked about, “...or I could just look at emotionally what's happening when I scroll on Instagram and what I'm trying to avoid.”Brett: How can we cultivate the enjoyment of those feelings that we are trying to avoid by managing?Joe: Well, stop resisting them. Half of the lack of enjoyment is the management itself. Stop trying to manage them and they'll all of a sudden become a lot more enjoyable. Stop resisting them.A lot of the things about emotional states that we find out is that it is the resistance to them that's painful, not the actual emotion itself. It's the fear of them that's painful, not the actual emotion itself. All of it is a physical sensation in your body. It has different intensities, but once it's unresisted they change rapidly, the sensation of them changes rapidly. No one's ever really been killed by an emotion or maimed by an emotion internally. Maybe an angry person maimed somebody else, but if you internally are feeling your emotions, you're not going to be wounded.Brett: Through the process of managing and suppressing our emotions, we can slowly kill ourselves with stress. That's true and depression.Joe: Yes, that's exactly it. Generally, that's the thing about management, we think we need it. What it actually is, is just a constant signal that we can find a more efficient way and a more enjoyable way. Just dropping the management itself can be enjoyment. Just to say, it's just about taking your hand of control away from it slowly.Some people, after listening to this, are like, "Okay, I'm just not going to manage any of my employees ever again." Then everything goes to shit and then they'll be like, "Yes that's right. I needed to manage it and I've proven that. I do need to manage it." What I'm saying is, see what the next level of enjoyment is, see what the next level is, because you have to find the new ways of being without management.An example that's really critical is, you're sitting with a bunch of employees or people that you work with and you need a job done. Let's say you need the car cleaned. One way to do it is to say, "I need the car cleaned." That would be maybe the least amount of management. The least amount of management is to see if anybody cleans the car, which may happen. If they have the right to defined roles and everything like that, reinventing organization style, somebody might just come and clean the car because they see it needs to get done.There's, "Hey, I need the car cleaned". Then there's like, "I need to get the car cleaned in this way, this way, this way and then make sure you detail this and do this and dah, dah, dah." Then there's car cleans just like, "Hey, I need the car cleaned and I need it to look like it looks when you get off of a new car lot. I need it to be done for less than $150 and I need you to enjoy yourself doing it." Where you give people the parameters of what a good job is but you don't tell them how to do it. You just tell them how to win.You don't see a lot of people doing it that way. You don't see that interim step, the interim step of letting people discover how to do it in a way that lets them win. Most people want to know how to win. If you keep determination and you keep intention and you keep boundaries and you keep maintaining and mandating the results that you want, then how necessary is management? The management is just the fear, that you're not going to get there. The management is just the fear, that people are going to hurt you, that people aren't going to show up.Brett: What you have been saying then in this entire episode is that in order to stop managing, we need to be willing to feel and enjoy feeling these emotions that we're trying to avoid like fear. That sounds like a really interesting topic to get into on another episode.Joe: Yes, indeed. That is a great way to think about that which is, we often try to figure stuff out before we actually allow the feeling of stuff. If we really let that feeling happen and learn how to enjoy that feeling, then most of what we're trying to figure out doesn't need to be figured out anymore.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit:  artofaccomplishment.comResources:Frederic Laloux, Reinventing Organizations, https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/Yann Arthus-Bertrand, Human, http://www.human-themovie.org/

We are taught from a very young age that doing things perfectly will get us where we want to go in life. But what if doing things in connection is far more effective? What if being in connection with your customers gets better results than trying to make a perfect product? Or being in connection with your spouse makes a better marriage than trying to make it perfect?"If you close your ideas and you think of the things that you feel are most perfect in the world, those are also things that are deeply connected. We think of a flower. We think of a scene. We think of God. We think of an amazing product. What the human population sees as perfection, they are all deep expressions of connection."What is perfectionism? If having clear goals can be so helpful in life, how could it be that the simple act of measuring ourselves up to them so often holds us back? Today we are going to explore why our quest for perfection never seems to satisfy us and often only slows or impedes productivity, while seeking connection tends to result in better output, better products and a better life. Brett: Joe, what makes this such an important topic? Joe: Oh man. That's a great question. There's so many reasons why it's important to me. The one that comes to mind right away is an experiment they did. It's the dried spaghetti experiment. It's basically you give a group of people 25 or so hard pieces of spaghetti and a marshmallow and some masking tape and you say, "Build the highest structure you can build."It turns out that kindergartners, a group of five kindergartners, will beat a group of five CEOs on a regular basis. The reason that the people who are doing the experiment say that that's the case is, because the young kids are iterating. They're just trying stuff out, trying stuff out, trying stuff out. Then when the time's up, they've tried like three or four models and they've got something. Whereas the CEO's are trying to make it absolutely perfect. Then they'll put that marshmallow on at the last minute, the whole thing will collapse. They didn't iterate. They didn't try. They tried to make it perfect and so it didn't work.One of the things about this experiment, which is so cool, is that if you get those same five CEOs and you add an administrative assistant, they will outperform the kindergarteners. Just somebody who can connect them together will immediately change it. On that level, that's a great example of how just connection, connecting with the tools that you have experimenting, iterating, that's a form of connection. Connecting with each other, like with the admin, all of that produces better results. That's one of the main reasons why it's so much more important. The other more important thing is that our neurochemicals do not propel us to be perfect. They propel us to connect. It's in our nature. Connection is in our nature. When you're working with humanity, prioritizing connection makes it better for you and everybody you're working with. That's part of the reason you get better results is that people don't want you to be perfect. The idea of you being perfect is going to be different from person to person. What they want is to feel connected with you. What you want is to feel connected to them.That's what we are genetically programmed to do, is to have this sense of connection. You get a deeper level of results and you get deeper satisfaction in your life. This is everywhere, even in the places where you don't expect it. For example, sales. There's one way of selling, which is the way most people sell. They try to write the perfect pitch and then present the perfect pitch in a perfect way. That just doesn't work as well as asking a whole bunch of questions, whether that's question-based selling or whether that's challenger-based selling. It's just asking a whole bunch of questions and talking to the person and finding out what's important to them. There's a great book on this called Ready, Fire, Aim. Is it Fire, Ready, Aim? Aim, Ready, Fire. It's basically saying that the job isn't to get a perfect product and put it out there. The job is to sell the thing before you build it so that you know what people will buy, which means that you're more connected with your customer.Brett: Then you're building what people will buy rather than what you planned or what you thought they would buy.Joe: That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is that you're prioritizing connection. You are saying, "I am going to connect with my customer and see what they really want, to see what it is that I can really serve them by providing," instead of, "I have this cool idea. What will make you buy it?"Brett: Let's define our terms here to discriminate between what is perfection and connection. Let's start by defining what is perfection.Joe: The critical parent's voice in your head is what it is for most people. We have this exercise in one of the workshops that I do, which is a triggering exercise, where people are to trigger one another and people hesitate to do it. We don't do it because we want to see people triggered. We do it, because we want people to figure out how to handle it when they are triggered. There's a group of people I can just walk up to and I can trigger people really easily because I can read what will trigger them pretty quickly. One of the things I can do is--Brett: Yes, you are great at that.Joe: [chuckles] One of the ways that I'll do it, I can just like, see who the perfectionist in the room is and I'll say, "You're a perfectionist." It'll trigger them because they're immediately in this headlock with themselves, because part of being perfect is to not be a perfectionist. It just messes with them all ways.The way I pick those people out is because I can see which ones of them had supercritical parents and you can see it in everything that they do. At some level, perfectionism is just trying to make the critical parent pleased. Since the critical parent could never really be pleased, it wasn't about you. It could be the critical teacher or the critical grandparent or whatever.Brett: How does that perfectionism show up? What do you see in people in their lives or the way they carry themselves, or even just briefly in a workshop when you've just met them?Joe: How do you see that? It's the amount of rigidity in the musculature, the amount of precision that they operate with, how much they're second-guessing themselves, how stunted their tones are, the way that they speak. Basically, all it really results to, is rigidity and hesitation inside the person when they're trying to be perfect.Brett: That hesitation part is really interesting. Because for me, I've always had identified or been diagnosed as ADD or ADHD. If I really pay attention to it, the moments where I get Teflon brain and it skips off of my task. If I really look at what happens often, it arises from a perfectionist pessimism.I sit down to write an email and I'm like, "Oh, I'm just never going to get this right. I'm not going to get it right. At least not right now, so why even bother?" Maybe some other time the conditions will be perfect and I'll know what to do. Let's go see what's in the fridge right now.Joe: They call it attention deficit disorder. The idea in the label is that your capacity to pay attention. If you reverse it a little bit, it's like how much attention was paid to you. It's the attention deficit disorder. Does that mean that you can't pay attention or does that mean that there was a limited amount of connection that you got? That's what actually creates it.I've noticed that. That's on the other side is that connection feeling, that the idea that you can do it perfectly is also just simply inane in the fact that what I think is perfect is different, than what you think is perfect. There's always someone thinking that you're not doing it perfectly, including you, always.The other thing you said, what is perfection? It's something that doesn't exist. It's just the point of view. If you are being absolutely perfect, somebody is seeing you as being rigid or imperfect or hesitant or whatever it is. That's how I describe it. If there's no such thing as that, the only way to describe it is trying to satisfy some critical voice in your head that is never and can never be satisfied.Brett: Having goals and vision and striving for perfection is good, right? It allows us to structure ourselves and structure our minds so that we can achieve something. How does that interact with this idea of perfectionism? Joe: Having goals and intentions, those are fantastic. Obviously, it allows us to focus. It allows us to decide which way we're going to walk. We have thousands of decisions to make a day. If we make them based on a goal, then we are far more coherent and unified, especially if that goal is coherent and unified.I don't know if that has anything to do with perfection. I don't see that as being perfect. None of our goals are perfect even. As long as you don't believe that there is some perfection you can get to, then the goals are really useful. As soon as you think there is a perfection that you can live up to, then the goals become less useful.To be specific about that, that doesn't mean that you're not 100% confident you're going to get to the goal. It's just the belief that there's some level of perfection at the end of the rainbow. That just doesn't happen. The other thing is that the best way to get to what we think is perfection-- I'd even say, if you close your eyes and you think of the things that you feel are most perfect in the world, those are also things that are deeply connected. We think of a flower. We think of a scene. We think of God. We think of an amazing product. We think of a person who inspires us. Then an ecosystem.Brett: An ecosystem, a metabolism. Joe: It's all also far more an expression of connection than it is a perfection. Even what the human population sees as perfection, they are all deep expressions of connection.Brett: It seems related to the idea of utopia being a dangerous idea. The idea of iterating towards better than what we have now is just the natural state.Joe: Which is the coolest thing too, because iteration is far more connected than perfection. If I'm just iterating and I'm learning and growing, that is a connected experience. That's what life does. It evolves. It doesn't evolve to a perfect end. If you see yourself as trying to evolve to a perfect end, then you're no longer in the flow of life. You're not using all the natural energy, all the natural ways of being that we were designed with to be productive.Brett: This is all reminding me of the book Finite and Infinite Games by James Carse. Have you--?Joe: I haven't. What is it?Brett: It's a fascinating and quite short read actually. It's quite poetic. It just describes this one very broad concept across a bunch of different domains and short prose about how there are games that are finite, where you achieve something and you get the title. You get the diploma. You get the trophy. You get the money. Then there are games that they're not meant to be won. The goal is not to win and end the game, but the goal is just to keep playing.Joe: Yes, which is right. I think that's a beautiful way to describe why connection and perfection work the way they work in our systems is that life is the game that you just keep on playing. Therefore, connection is what works. When you have a game that has a finite end or you've created an imagined finite end to it, then perfection is there.That's the other thing about it, is that fear creates a finite end in people. The idea of perfection is really a fear-based idea. The idea that you have to be perfect, that you have a right answer, that there's the right way to do it, that's all fear-based. Fear does not make great decisions.Brett: That's interesting. A lot of ideals of perfection are this belief that we can get rid of everything bad and that we can reduce all error. There's a fear of like, "Oh my God, what if this happened? What if this still exists in the world? What if there's still imperfection? What if I still have to feel whatever this is that I don't want to feel? What if I could just cut all that out? That would be perfect."Joe: The CEO of Netflix has a great example of this where he talks about his first company. He basically made it idiot-proof so it couldn't be broken and then he only had idiots working for him as he describes it. Then they couldn't really adjust their company to the new times. In his company now--Brett: Rigidity.Joe: Exactly. He has a system that's in place to create a certain amount of chaos so that he can create an environment where smart people love to be and where it's far more flexible.Brett: Where flexible people like to be.Joe: Exactly. That's where connection happens. In one, he prioritized getting it right and perfecting. The other one he prioritized being connected with these people.Brett: Then let's get into the definition of connection then. How specifically would you define that as relative to this idea of perfection?Joe: It's a measure of capacity for you or for anybody, anything to meet and accept things as they are in the moment. If I'm connecting with you, I'm not asking you to be any different right now. The more I ask you to be different, the less connected we're going to feel. If I'm looking at a landscape and trying to adjust it, telling myself this is the good part and this is the bad part and comparing it to other landscapes, I am in less connection than if I am in just full acceptance of what the landscape is at this moment.Connection basically is like the surface area of our awareness. We take away surface area, when we start looking for things that can be better or things that are different or any way in which we're calculating creates distances to that connection. If you are a CEO and you want your customer to be different, you are not in connection. If you are a product manager trying to get a different answer from your customer, then you're not in connection. If you are a husband wanting your wife to not nag as much, or a wife wanting your husband to not nag as much, then you are not in connection. Connection is the acceptance of people and things as they are. That's what it is.Neurochemically, it is oxytocin and serotonin. Mostly it's oxytocin, which is the drug that is felt when we're in deep connection, mothers feel when they're breastfeeding and we feel it when we're hugging and we feel it during sex. That's oxytocin. Serotonin is more of a pride, proud of each other drug and something that you would feel like if you were watching a friend have a great moment. You had a lot of pride in what they just accomplished. Those are our connection neurochemicals. That's the other way to say what connection is.Brett: One thing just pried, it seems serotonin is also involved in meaning and satiety.Joe: Yes. That's right. Exactly. The way to think about our ability to have connection, it's really our ability to love ourselves and accept ourselves as we are. The more I can love every aspect of myself, the more I can love every person I come across as they are. You can hear there's somebody's mind out there listening to this right now and they're like, "If I accept myself as I am, I will be horrible. I will drink beer on the couch, or I'll just say the same as I am right now."What's interesting is, that doesn't actually happen. If you look at any system that is deeply connected and change is inherent, it's natural. Evolution is part of it. It's when people get rigid, when people try to do it perfectly, that change stops happening. It's just that you don't get to control the change. It's just that you have to trust the deeper intelligence in yourself, your deeper intelligence, your nonintellectual intelligence to drive the change.Brett: It seems like this comes up pretty frequently in so many other aspects of the work that you do, or that we've been doing. For example, the victim story that people have around client relationships. It's like, "Oh, man, all these clients, there's so much wrong with them. If only they would see things the way we see it, we'd be able to do great work."Joe: Yes, or fathers or mothers or girlfriends. Exactly. That's right. The way to think about it too, is just like think about the people who really make it so that you feel seen, that really make it so that you feel understood. Feel that. That is connection. Those people are seeing you for what you are. They're not trying to fix you or manage you. If you think about what's so important about connection, what makes it important is, think of what you would do for those people. Think of the people who make you feel most seen and most understood in this world. What would you do for them? What would you do for yourself, if you really saw and understood yourself deeply? If you really felt understood by yourself.There's people listening to this who haven't quit eating sugar or haven't quit smoking. What would you do? There's a way in which you're disconnected with yourself. If you felt deeply connected with yourself and you weren't trying to change yourself, the things that you would do for yourself are far more outstanding than things you're actually doing for yourself right now. You tell yourself you should do them, but you're not doing them.Brett: Yes. That brings me back to that ADD example I described earlier. It's like the difference between sitting down to write an email and being like, "Oh God, I'm just so procrastinating today. I'm just never going to get this done. Oh, I suck." That's telling myself how I should be. Then the connection version would be like, "Oh, wow. I really want to get this right because this is important to me. Oh, man. Whatever I do it's never going to be. There's always going to be something I could have done better. Wow. Okay."Joe: Yes. How about just be authentic, do it the way that I want to do it and then look at it and see if that works? Exactly. That connection is staying. I talk about what it means and I say that it's like accepting how things are in the moment. The moment changes. So you just keep on accepting, because it keeps on moving. It keeps on changing.Brett: Yes, because the moment you accept something, you can also then turn that acceptance into a new model of perfection. Joe: [laughs] Yes. I'm going to connect to you perfectly. It's so amazing. It's like, "Hey, I want to connect with you." You can just feel that in your system. "Hey, I want to connect with you. Hey, I want to connect with you perfectly." It just immediately takes the connection out.Brett: I've experienced that in relationships so many times, where suddenly I'll have a new idea of like, "Oh, wow, this is connection. I wasn't doing connection before. Now I know what connection is." Then suddenly that can become a new perfectionism, where I'm like, "Oh, man, I could call my brother and reach out and talk right now, but I haven't talked in so long and that's been-- Oh." Then just find ways to make it not okay somehow and then procrastinate it.Joe: Exactly. That's the amazing thing too, is that we have all these impulses inside of us that are just popping up like, "Oh, I want to work out or I want to exercise or I want to move my body." Then that impulse, which is the deep connection, immediately gets turned into a perfection of, "I should work out." Then it's completely unmotivating.Brett: Then here's my workout plan that I'm going to hold myself to and shame myself and judge myself when I miss a day.Joe: Exactly. You watch the little kids and they just follow that impulse and there's no idea of perfection. As they get older, the bigger the perfection, the more they're stilted, the more they're stunted. If you look at the people who have the deepest level of depression that feel most stagnant in life, their brain is telling them that they're not perfect and they need to be perfect all the time.Brett: Yes. They're just experiencing that delta between them and their model of what they want to be.Joe: Yes. I'll give you a little trick that I do with people. The most recent is with my guy who cuts my hair, a great guy. He's an artist and I love his art. It's good work. He was just having a hard time getting people to buy and represent him and everything that. I'm "Hey man, I've got a job for you. If you do it, if you do this job successfully, I'll give you whatever 1,000 bucks," or whatever it was. He's like, "Okay, well, what's the job?"And I said, "I need you to get 30 rejections. I need you to go out there and get 30 people to turn you down. If you can prove to me you've got 30 people to turn you down in a year, I'll give you 1,000 bucks." I came back two months later, I don't get my haircut that often, or I had one and we didn't talk about it. Then I was like, "How's it going? He's like, "I've got three representations and I've sold 12 pieces." It was the difference between trying to get sold and trying to get rejected because his mindset moved from perfection to connection.Brett: Speaking of moving that mindset, how can we consciously shift from a mindset of measuring ourselves up to some perfect ideal and rather focus on cultivating connection? What is the practice here?Joe: That question in itself implies perfectionism. It's like how do I perfect myself in this way? Even that question becomes a little bit less effective than another question. The other thing to say is that there's also no such thing as perfect connection. It's asymptotic, meaning that you get closer and closer, but you can never actually arrive.There's no place to get to, that you're going to ever get to. There's just proximity and feeling more and more and more and more and more, more connected. I think it's important to say that if you choose that, if you say, "Hey, what I'm after in life--" Every company has a bottom line. For most of them, it's the financial bottom line, but there's other kinds of bottom lines that people have.What I've noticed is when people change their life to having a bottom line of connection, they have incredibly happy and productive lives. If they can measure their level of connection on a daily basis and their job is just to feel more and more connected every day, that visceral sense of connection, it has a very, very deep effect on people. I just think it's really important to say that, but the trick is not to try to get there because trying to get there is a form of disconnection.Brett: There's no there to get. It's an iteration.Joe: Right. It's really more of an allowing. Connection is more of an allowing. If I'm not trying to change anything, if the definition of connection is not trying to change anything, not wanting-- It's not quite that. It's not wanting things to be different. You might want to change stuff. That's fine. It's important to change stuff, obviously. It's more about accepting it for what it is even if you are trying to change it.Brett: Which is in a sense allowing imperfection? Allowing the error signal, allowing the pain of things not being as good as you could imagine them being, which breaks through denial. Because what is denial other than just having this vision of how things are and no, it has to be perfect, so this information that is inconvenient?Joe: Yes. Also, it's your imagination. It's imaginary. Perfection is again. Yes, exactly. That's beautifully said. How do you have deeper levels of connection in your life and how do you, I would say, allow deeper levels of connection in your life? It's interesting. One of the things that's a really important principle behind it is, to go into difficulty is one of the ways that you get into-- when I say difficulty, I mean discomfort or vulnerability.That really creates a sense of connection in folks. If you've ever seen people who fought together in a war, it doesn't matter if they haven't seen each other in 20 years, their bond is ridiculous. It's such a strong level of connection and they've just gone through the shit together. I build my courses so that there's difficult moments so that people can start feeling bonded to one another.There's something about going through difficult things together that creates a bond. Same with yourself. If I have my little kids and I have them do tasks that are hard for them and challenging for them, they feel more connected with themselves and more connected with me. They talk about how to build self-esteem. One of the ways you build self-esteem is by giving hard things to do. Then that's how they build self-esteem. It's not to take that away from them or to try to make it so they're successful. It's the same thing internally and externally. Then the other main way that I talk about this is VIEW. I talk about something that I termed as VIEW, which is how we relate to ourselves and how we relate to other people. That's very operational, so that if you practice this state of mind, it just leads to deeper and deeper levels of connection internally and externally.Brett: Can you explain VIEW?Joe: Yes. The most important thing is, it is a state of mind. It's almost even beyond a state of mind. I think it is a state that's beneath all states of mind is another way to think about it.Brett: Metastate.Joe: Yes. It's a metastate. A stateless state, I've heard people call it. It's good for internal and external practices. It's basically V stands for vulnerability, I stands for impartiality, E stands for empathy and W stands for wonder. It's walking around the world willing and feeling vulnerable, impartial, empathetic and full of wonder.This is not just like how I interact with you. As you know, we have these conversations that are in VIEW and we do a lot of work in here. It's also meditative, like if you're sitting and being with yourself quietly, how can you be more vulnerable with yourself in that moment? How can you be more impartial with yourself? How can you have more empathy? How can you have more wonder?We're constantly telling ourselves, "I should lose weight," but we're never really going, "What is making it so that I've been saying that to myself for 20 years and nothing's happened?" We're constantly telling ourselves how we should feel or how we should not feel or how to avoid them, but we're not really actually just being empathetic with ourselves and being with the feeling.We're constantly telling ourselves how to do shit, what to do. We're editing ourselves all the time, but we're very rarely just ever being impartial with ourselves like, "What's actually happening? Let's just look at this thing with a watcher's eye, an observer's eye instead of a manager's eye."Impartiality is amazing because people often say, "If I don't manage it, it's not going to turn out right," which is clearly not true when you just think about most of the major decisions that have changed your life are not things that you decided. Like did you really decide to meet your wife on a Tuesday at a bar or did you really decide to even take that job or apply for that job or did you just apply for 20 jobs?The decisions that actually make our lives are often ones that we don't have any control over anyway. More importantly, it's like the best change agent for things is awareness. It's not management. Just being aware of stuff can change things dramatically. We put a whole bunch of management on it, thinking that that's necessary, but it usually slows down the progress.Brett: Relationships are a really great example, because you certainly can't connect the dots in advance how you're going to meet a person or a client, or you can try to arrange your life so that that thing happens with higher frequency. Really, there's a state of mind of being open to it, of allowing it, of allowing those synchronicities.Joe: The more that you recognize them and allow them, the more that they happen. I'm not in any way speaking out against, "Hey." Sometimes it's important to say, "We're going to get to this goal." I think goals are fantastic. I love them. The question is, can you hold that with an impartiality as well as a determination? It's incredibly easy to do when you look at nature, like an oak tree that grows to be 5 feet wide and 40 feet tall. That's determination and it's also very impartial. It's just in the flow of things.Impartiality is the hardest one for business people, particularly to really grok and understand. One of the metaphors I use for impartiality is you're on a boat going down a river. It's important to row the boat, but it is more important to read the river. If you are partial and reading the river, you're not reading the river. That's the impartiality part. Then vulnerability, obviously, is doing the things that are just a little bit scary, to let the little parts of yourself that you judge out into the world to find out that nobody else is judging them. They're just you.Brett: Or to find that they might be judged and that's okay.Joe: Yes and to find that they might be judged and that's okay, right. The thing is we don't really care what people are judging us. All the things that you're proud of about yourself, all those things that you think are just fricking awesome about yourself, I guarantee you there's people judging you for them. I guarantee you and you don't care. The things you care about are the things that you're judging yourself for. Exactly.Brett: We've got vulnerability, impartiality, empathy and wonder. We've talked about impartiality quite a bit. We've talked about vulnerability. Let's talk a little bit more about wonder. Joe: Wonder is curiosity without looking for a solution. Wonder is curiosity with awe. It has a certain level of awe to it. It has a certain amount of amazement to it and it is in the question. We think that being in the answer is more productive than being in the question. Being in the question is incredibly important. Just as an example, you can have three different questions arise. One question is, how do I have the perfect relationship? The second question could be, how do I have the most connected relationship? The third question could be, how do I have a relationship that lasts 40 years?Brett: Then ends exactly at 41.[both chuckle]Joe: Probably. Those are going to lead to three different relationships. What the question is, is far more important than what the answer is. Living in the question is an amazing experience, to be in the question without needing that resolution, to just be in the wonder of life. It just provides answer after answer after answer, but to be in the knowing, you only get one answer. I'd much rather have many answers than one.Brett: It's like seeing an animal be like, "Whoa, that's a giraffe. Cool, giraffe," or being like, "Whoa, look at the spots on that thing. How tall it is? The little eyelashes, Oh."Joe: What? It has the same amount of neck vertebrae as I do? What? What? How on earth? Exactly. It's that feeling of just question after question. Answer after answer. One thing about vulnerability that I'm not sure if I hit is, that everybody's vulnerability is different. It's like, I see people often say like, "Oh, that guy's not vulnerable." You have no idea if that person is being vulnerable or not because vulnerable for you and vulnerable for me is different. I could tell you all about my childhood and all the mishaps and drama and you'd be like, "Wow, man that was super vulnerable. Your dad did what? Your mom did huh?" I would be like, "Yes, that's not vulnerable."To me, I've said it 1000 times. I've been in rooms and Al-Anon meetings and groups for years of hashing through that stuff. There's nothing vulnerable about it for me. That's the path of vulnerability, is that you're constantly showing up with that thing, that's a little scary and all of a sudden, it's not scary anymore. Then you show up with the next thing and you show up with the next thing. Then it ends up leading you into authenticity, because all those vulnerabilities are really just ways that you're judging yourself and preventing yourself from being what you actually are.Brett: Vulnerability could even depend on role as well, like an overbearing manager screaming is like that's somebody not being vulnerable. An employee showing their anger to a manager that they've been hiding for so long and just resenting, there's something really vulnerable in that.Joe: I would say something vulnerable in both actually. Basically, the manager who's yelling and is basically saying, "I feel out of control. I feel alone. I feel out of control. I'm going to go and beat myself up for yelling in a couple minutes. I feel ashamed and I don't know what to do to actually fix this situation. I'm yelling, because I hope that it'll make me feel like I'm in control for 20 minutes."Brett: To a third party observer, as you were saying, like our idea of what is vulnerable is different. A third party observer might observe the manager as being invulnerable and their anger in the employees as being vulnerable. I see this in movies, for example. There's so many examples where finally that person stood up for themselves. That was such a vulnerable thing to do.Joe: The important part is, are you being consciously vulnerable? Yes, if you're getting angry all the time and yelling at people, obviously that level of vulnerability, though it's vulnerable for you, you probably don't recognize it. Other people don't recognize it. It's not really going to have the same effect as being vulnerable in a way of like, "Oh, I'm going to go stretch myself here." What is very useful is when somebody is yelling like that to see it as a vulnerability.Brett: Or, "I'm sorry. I keep yelling at you and I don't want to be yelling at you. I apologize."Joe: Yes. That's the vulnerability that the person yelling it's going to really benefit them. To see them as vulnerable when they're yelling just to be able to look at them and say, "Hey, you're not alone in this. This whole team wants to be successful with you." It will immediately change the yell. It just will, because if you can see it as vulnerability, that's great. For that person to have the benefit and this modality of VIEW, the important thing is that you're choosing vulnerability. You're choosing the thing that's vulnerable to you.I think that the one piece that we haven't quite talked about is empathy and I think it's an important thing. Empathy is just allowing yourself to feel the other person. It doesn't mean losing yourself in the other person. It doesn't mean going into the other person. It doesn't mean confusing your emotional state with their emotional state. It just means allowing yourself to be with the person while they are feeling stuff, to be there with them in it. That's just an important piece on the empathy. Brett: Again, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy, wonder, VIEW. How does one practice VIEW or cultivate this state of mind or meta state?Joe: You can do it internally and you can do it externally. If you're a meditator, if you just  contemplate quietly, just do some experiments. See what it's like to be vulnerable with yourself and then see what it's like to be non vulnerable with yourself. See what it's like to be partial with yourself. Have a really strong agenda for yourself and see what it's like to be impartial with yourself.Brett: What about an agenda creeping into meditation? Like I'm going to meditate into this particular state of mind that I want to be in and that would be perfect.Joe: Exactly. That would be very partial and so would be saying I want to be impartial right now. This is the thing about true meditation is having no agenda, having no management. It's more like sitting on the beach and enjoying the wind across your face. Oftentimes, when I'm talking to people about how to meditate, I talk about, it's just non-management.The level of management is also asymptotic. It gets finer and finer and finer and finer. Maybe you start with just a simple agenda, which is to be agendaless. Maybe you start with a really simple agenda of being aware of your body. The idea is that eventually, the agenda goes away and you become the passenger. You are being taken for a ride. You're not driving.Brett: How do you bring that into your life when you're in a meeting or an argument or working on a podcast?Joe: That's actually a little bit easier for VIEW. Wonder means you're asking open-ended questions. If you're really curious, you're asking questions that are going to give you lots of data. How, what, where, when questions. Not can do, is questions and why questions are usually judgmental. Wonder is just asking questions. Empathy is not trying to fix people's emotional states, not trying to change their emotional state and to let them know that you're with them.Brett: That sounds like impartiality.Joe: It is and it's on the emotional level. They all are the same thing. When you start really getting into them, they're all the same thing. Impartiality, I use that more on the logical level and the empathy is more on the emotional level. It's to call it out because I think that most people don't recognize or it takes them a long time to recognize, that they are constantly wanting their emotional state to be different, that they're constantly trying to get to some state or trying to get away from another state.Brett: We've all been taught in some way or another that happy is good. Some parents are like, "Oh, I will love you if you're successful." Other parents are like, "I will love you if you're happy," and that's almost as just as bad in some cases.Joe: Yes. It's not loving them for what they are. It's not loving your kid for what they are. The crazy thing is, is this idea is like, "Hey, if I love you for throwing temper tantrums," and you're going to just keep on throwing temper tantrums, that's just not true. It's like once you love that part of yourself, it changes.Just like if you put awareness into something that changes. There's this principle in business, it says how do you fix a problem? The thing you do is you put attention towards it. Just the simple act of putting attention towards a change is the situation and creates a solution. It's the same thing that awareness just changes things and so does love. Love just changes. If you can love every emotional state that you have, they change. The friction of most emotional states is your resistance to them, not the state themselves. If you're resistant to bliss, which oddly most people are. Bliss is very overwhelming. There's this great quote that says fear is excitement without the breath.It's just saying that excitement, if you forget to breathe because you're resisting it, is fear. That's what empathy is all about. We're using different parts of the brain and empathy and impartiality too. One is mirror neurons and one is opening our heart. The feeling of opening a heart and the other one, impartiality is dropping the strategies, dropping the agenda.Brett: Another thing about fear and excitement, in base jumping through the phrase similar to this was just excitement is the other side of fear. Getting into it more subtly, fear is when you feel something is off and inauthentic and excitement is when you feel like you're ready for it. Whatever cliff you're about to jump off of, if you feel like your equipment is in line and your mindset is in the right place and the conditions are right, then it comes through as excitement.If there's a part of you that knows something's wrong, you know that you feel peer-pressured into this to be cool, or you know that the conditions are off but you're just avoiding hiking down because that would be annoying, then there's a constriction there that turns into fear. Listening to what kind of fear you're feeling can be a really good indicator.Joe: Yes. Absolutely, that's a beautiful thing. I think what it all requires, fear, excitement, breath, no breath, is to feel it. It's to actually feel which is what empathy is saying. It's to actually allow the emotional state to move through you and to flow without resistance, because you're never going to get the intelligence of the emotion while trying to control it. You're not going to get the intelligence of your people in a business if you're trying to control it.Brett: It seems like a form of being receptive to information rather than just drawing a conclusion.Joe: That's exactly right. That's the whole thing. That's the VIEW. If you're practicing it out in the world, it's like wonder is asking questions. Empathy is being with people's emotions. Impartiality is not trying to drive them to a place.We had this great experience, where we did these workshops, where it was these two day practicing VIEW. That's all we did. Just practice VIEW for two days. This is like deep stuff. People will call me two or three years later. I remember one guy and it's more than one guy. There's multiple people where this happened, where they basically at some point in the two days looked at me and said, "Wow, I've never asked an impartial question in my whole life." All my questions, everything I'm saying is trying to get somebody to do something.The people who are going to have that recognition the most are the people who are most disconnected, are the people who feel most lonely, who feel most disconnected is because they have this incredibly strong agenda for themselves or for others.Brett: Perfectionism.Joe: Yes, exactly. Vulnerability is just saying things that are vulnerable or asking vulnerable questions or asking the question that might get you fired or asking the question that might make your boss angry at you, but it's your truth. That's the thing about vulnerability.Vulnerability is you don't do the scary thing because it's scary, you do the scary thing because it's your truth. You ask the question because it's your truth or you say the thing. Even the work that I do, when people see me do one-on-one work, they're like, "Holy shit, how did you ask those questions?" It happens to me too. I'll feel it. I'll be like, "Oh my god, I'm going to ask that question. Oh shit." You've seen it happen. Those are usually the most powerful, most impactful questions are the ones that are really scary.Brett: That's when my sphincter is clenching hearing you start to ask the question.Joe: Exactly. Mine, too. It's like, "Whoo." That's when life just becomes really alive and opens up. That's where the most important stuff comes. Maybe some people are going to join you. Maybe some people aren't. That vulnerability really makes it so that you get the life that you want to live, because you're showing up as yourself in your truth, no matter the consequences, no matter what someone thinks.That just drives the people who want you for you into your life and drives the people who don't want you for you out of your life. It's a lot easier. Then we have this whole technique of asking questions and having how to have you VIEW question and answers and all that stuff will be explicit in other materials.There's all sorts of ways of using this to do sales and you're doing this to do management of people, or doing VIEW to do product development or doing VIEW to talk to your father who you haven't spoken to in 20 years. When you hear people have these conversations, it's amazing to see. We'd give these homework assignments and VIEW. They would in the VIEW course and they would go out and talk to their dad and then parents, siblings haven't spoken, getting back together. Husbands and wives realizing, that they have the same thing. All beautiful things happen. Bosses and employees changing the way that they work together. Co-workers changing the way they work together from 15-minute conversations, because you do this with executives.I do this with executives and typically the executive is like, "Wait. I need to be partial. That's how I've made my living and I can't be vulnerable." I'm like, "It's just an experiment. Let's do this for 15 minutes." Then at the end of the 15 minutes, I always say the same thing. I'm always like, "Hey, so have you ever had a more productive 15-minute conversation?" The answer is almost always no, because when you're that way, it's an incredible form of productivity, because you get to see and learn and grow so much. CEOs start to learn like, "Oh, I could--"There's this great in the book that I love Reinventing Organizations. There's this example of a CEO going to his people and say, "Hey, we just lost the biggest contract. We do not have enough money. Tell me what we should do." The whole organization said, "You know what, we're all going to take a pay cut and we're going to try to get another customer." The people who are trying to get the other customer, obviously, we're completely motivated because they saw everybody do this pay cut. They themselves had a pay cut and the CEO didn't dictate a pay cut, but people decided this is what we're going to do.That's an expression of vulnerability in a business and there's thousands of those expressions. There's a Harvard Business Review case of a woman who basically had no money. She had a company and she had no money to keep on going and her employees stayed with her. It was all about her vulnerability with the employees.It's so incredibly apparent when you get out of the mindset that people do things for money. Some people do things for money, for sure. We all do some things for money for sure, but most of what we do in life is not for money.Brett: Getting beyond carrots and sticks.Joe: Yes. Getting beyond carrots and sticks and having some faith that most people and the people that you should have hired and the people hopefully that you're married to, are people who want what's best for them. They want to contribute. They want to be a part of things. They're motivated. If there's no money, people wouldn't just all sit around and go, "Okay. I'm done. No more money. I'm finished." If everybody had food and shelter, then everyone's like, "I'm finished. I'm done."Brett: This example of the CEO reminds me of something that you've said before where the position of the CEO often feels like the most lonely position in the company.Joe: Yes, for sure.Brett: What would you have to say just to wrap this episode up neatly into a perfect conclusion, cherry on top? What would you have to say to that CEO that feels that distance and wants that connection but feels like, "No, no, everything would fall apart"?Joe: I would say, I know you had to be resourceful and you had to be self-reliant. You were alone as a kid but you're not alone now. If you're looking for evidence, look around at all the people who are trying to make you successful. They might not be able to live up to every one of your expectations, but it's probably impossible to find anybody who's not trying to live up to your expectations, who's not trying to make it work for you and for them. Take a look at that and then apologize to them for not recognizing it. That would be the vulnerable act. Then see how much more inspired they are to be there with you and to show up with you because they see your humaneness instead of being scared of you.Brett: Beautiful. Joe, thank you for a perfectly imperfect episode.Joe: That it was. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.comResources:Frederic Laloux, Reinventing Organizations, https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/James Carse, Finite and Infinite Games, https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Finite-and-Infinite-Games/James-Carse/9781476731711Michael Masterson, Ready, Fire, Aim: Zero to $100 Million in No Time Flat, https://www.waterstones.com/book/ready-fire-aim/michael-masterson/9781119086857

When we are ready to embark on the journey of self-transformation we want to make the most of our time in an effective and progressive way. For this, as with all journeys, it helps to have a compass and a clear map.A clear map tells us four things about the journey: the necessary conditions, the best approach, what to expect along the way, and impediments where we might get lost. The compass that keeps us on track—our constant reference along the path—is enjoyment."There is no way of getting it right. There is no complete. There is no finish line, no done, there is no “I'm going to get it.” There is just “What's the next experiment?” “What's the next adventure?” “What can I learn from what just happened?” There is just play."Brett: Today we're going to talk about everything you need to know about embarking on a personal transformative journey, conditions for transformation, what happens on the journey, what we can get excited about and what will get on our way. Joe, tell me what does someone need to know about embarking on a transformative journey?Joe: There's a way to look at it that we can dissect it into all the parts of it and let's do that. Before I even start there, the most important thing that someone should know about in deciding lik, "Hey, I want to do something that transforms my life," is that it's a process to be enjoyed. Not only is it a process to be enjoyed because that's nice, but it's because it's more effective.The only thing to tweak about that is that enjoying yourself is a little bit different than maybe how you're thinking of it. Most people think or a lot of people think, if someone says, "Hey, go enjoy yourself." They think, "What am I going to do?" For example, I'll go play golf or I'll go and have a conversation with a friend or I'll go get high on heroin, whatever their idea of enjoying themselves is. That's not what I'm speaking to. What I'm speaking to is how do you allow yourself more enjoyment in everything that you're doing. That's what I mean by enjoy yourself.If it means that you're in a satsang listening to a guru, how do you enjoy yourself in that? If it means that you are listening to this digital recording, even if you notice that you're criticizing yourself, how do you enjoy criticizing yourself? That's the question. The question isn't how do I do the things that I enjoy? The question is how do I enjoy the things that I'm doing. That's the golden mean of the journey, that's where you guide your footsteps by and then everything else is a technicality that revolves around that sun. It's like the gravitation, how do you enjoy yourself?As far as the details, I think you can clump them into four parts. One part is, what are the conditions that need to be set for transformation? There's an acupuncturist who once taught me this idea of conditions for healing. I was like, "What do you need to do just so that somebody can potentially heal if you're treating them."It's the conditions that need to be there for transformation to be possible. Then there's a question of approach, how do you approach it because at the end of the day, you're responsible and your approach is going to make a big difference in the alacrity, the enjoyment and the depth of transformation.Then I think you can also talk about what to expect on the journey, because when you really got to get into it there's certain things that happen over and over again and they can fool you and they can also, when you see them in a slightly different light, they can really propel you. Then I think then you can also talk about what gets in the way? What are the impediments of the journey? That's how I would break it down.Brett: Let's get started on it. What are the conditions that we would set in place for us to enjoy our transformation?Joe: The most important thing is you need to feel safe. And safe is misused often in today's world. We've got a lot of times people use safety as a way to control. Like, “I don't feel safe.” It's not actually a lack of safety, it's a way that they can control their environment, but you have to feel safe. Fear reduces your capacity to learn. Here's something that you've never seen before.You've never seen two people in a yelling match, where one person going, "You son of a pa-pa-pa-pa and you mother, ba-ba-ba-ba." The other person say, "Oh yes, you're right. You've got a point there." It doesn't happen because it's neurologically impossible. Feeling safe is really critical to being able to learn. That's important and it's really important also to understand the difference between whether you feel unsafe or whether you feel defensive.There's a great trick to doing that. Take a moment, pause this or whatever, but feel in your body what it feels like to feel unsafe. When you really felt like your life was threatened or that you were threatened and then feel what it's like when you were really defensive. Your body has two different signals for that defensiveness and safety and they get confused sometimes. To know the difference is really important.Brett: What are some examples of what that might feel like in the body? I remember early on going through your courses, a lot of the instruction were like: “How does that feel in your body?” A lot of times it would just be dissociation. I couldn't quite feel, like, "What do you mean in my body? I'm thinking. This is a thought.” Joe: [laughs] Oftentimes safety is felt more electrically in the body. It can be felt in the shoulders and in the belly often, but it's different for everybody and it's really based on, when you feel unsafe, if you go to fight, flight, or freeze. Your body's literally going to feel one of those ways. Defense is a hardening. It's usually like a more increased rigidity in some way.Brett: Muscles tightening.Joe: Tightening, yes. It doesn't always have to be that. It's very different for each person. Those are some of the signals to look for, such as how much electricity is moving through, what feels like electricity or energy is moving through your body. How rigid your body is, what part of your body lights up? These are the ways to know the difference for you between safety and resistance. Great question. Then, another thing that's the condition needs to be set, there needs to be trust. If you don't believe that you are going to transform, you are at a severe disadvantage.Trusting a teacher if you choose to have one is really important. Trusting yourself is so critical. Trust is a really important thing. The belief that it's possible to really know that that transformation is there-- there's this thing called the placebo effect. The interesting thing is, that it's always seen like it's a glitch of science. We can't really test it, because some people just think that they will get better and so they do. [chuckles] In this work, the placebo effect is a feature. It's not a glitch, it's not a bug. It's really important that you think that it's possible.I don't mean to do it in a namby-pamby kind of way. [chuckles] I'm talking about doing the research, do what you have to do to find out that it's possible. Talk to people who've been in the course or know that it's possible. The truth is we have a great success rate in our courses. We've had great studies done and we have a consistent shift that's measurable, but the main part is the belief that that's possible.The other thing to see is that some people don't change. Occasionally, you get someone who goes through who doesn't change. One of the things that you can always know about that person is they never came in with the confidence that they could change. They were resistant right from the start to the whole thing. If you're that, just don't do it. It's a waste of your time and it hurts the other people that you're on the journey with. That's really important.Another really important thing is seeing beyond your intellect and knowing that your thoughts are only part of the way the transformation happens. Do your research if you need to, to know that there are things like mirror neurons and mirror neurons don't register in the intellect of the brain. They're just some way in which we know that our body has an intelligence that if you move differently, your thoughts will be different.Research things like Sensory Processing Disorder where we know that kids who do not get to inhabit their body in a full way have a different brain function than kids who have inhabited their body in a full way, who have an understanding of where they are in space, they have appropriate perception issues. We know that the way that we move changes.Our body has an intelligence, our emotions have an intelligence, our intellect have an intelligence. If you are trying to do all of your change through the intellect, you're going to be screwed. It's going to be slow. You're going to be able to describe everything that's wrong with you, but very little is going to have changed.Brett: I've experienced that myself.[laughter]It took some time to realize that, while I could logically create a framework around everything that I was experiencing, I wasn't able to actually transform until I let the fuzzier logic of emotions and the body make movements that I didn't have to intellectually understand.Joe: Yes. For me the journey was similar. It was slightly different, I just deconstruct it. I spent almost 10 years deconstructing all my thoughts so that I could be free enough of them to trust the other ways of knowing. It's so apparent, it's just to ask somebody who's a great gymnast, how they did it and they're not going to give you an intellectual explanation. There's knowledge that happens that the intellect can't describe, muscle memories, examples like emotional memory.Brett: The endocrine system has its own memory.Joe: Exactly, hormone systems. Right. Exactly. Nervous system. All of that is very hard to describe. Another really important thing is vulnerability. It's really hard to have a transformational journey if you're like, "Yes, I got it. It's cool. I'm good. Yes. It's not that bad. Yes. There's some something that could be done there, but, it's not that big of a deal."If you're coming at it with that approach, you are not going to have that much transformation. It doesn't mean that you have to think there's something wrong with me either. It doesn't mean that you have to say, "I'm broken. Fix me. I'm broken. I have to fix myself. I need to be healed." You don't have to have that attitude either.Brett: You could create that entire model of yourself and stay in that for years too. [chuckles]Joe: Exactly, but if you can't explore the depths of your pain and your constriction and express it to other people, then you're not going to be able to approach it. You're not going to be able to do anything about it. You're not going to be able to understand it better. You know? It's like unless your attention can go to the discomfort, then your system can't do anything about the discomfort.A lot of people have learned how to just not go to the discomfort. Obviously, it builds up. Other things happen. It's a painful life. That's a really important thing. I'd say finally and I think I've stated it before which is just, if you're not willing to take full responsibility for your journey, if you start blaming the teacher, if you start blaming your wife, if you start blaming your mom and dad, you have to take full responsibility for the journey.It doesn't mean that you shame yourself, it doesn't mean that you blame yourself, but it just means you don't shame or blame anybody else. You have to just say something like, "I am exactly where I need to be. I am responsible for this." That is incredibly important in the journey, because every time you blame somebody else for where you are, including blaming yourself. Anytime you are blaming anything for where you are, you are slowing the process down tremendously.Brett: It seems like each of these is, there's a catch-22 because they're both conditions and also the effects. For example, with trust, many people might approach personal development, because starting with a position of that they don't trust themselves, they don't trust their own goodness or they don't trust teachers or they don't trust the process and that's something th at they're working with. What advice would you have for somebody who wants to embark on a personal transformation journey but is worried about being manipulated or controlled by a guru or ending up in some woo-woo backwater?Joe: I would say maybe two or three things there. The first thing is I get back to the first principle, right? It's enjoying yourself. If you are not trusting somebody, how do you enjoy that movement of non-trust? It's clear that if you feel safe, there's a deeper level of enjoyment. If you feel trust, there's a deeper enjoyment in being vulnerable than there is in being protected.Brett: Do you have any tips or exercises for anybody who's embarking on this and finding that they're having that difficulty with say, trust or vulnerability? Some way to help them just enjoy feeling what they're feeling rather than trying to change it?Joe: Yes. Let's say you are with a teacher and you're not trusting them or you know that you want to sign up for the course, but you know you're going to have trust issues; the best thing you can do is just go to the person and say, "I don't trust teachers and I want to. How can we work together so that this isn't a burden for you and this isn't a burden for me." That would be taking responsibility, being vulnerable and trusting.Even in saying that, you're trusting yourself, which is the more important thing than trusting the teacher. In saying all this to your teacher, you're giving them trust in that moment. If they react in a way that's just like, "Well, if you don't trust me, motherfucker," [laugh] then you pretty much know it's not the right teacher. Or if they go, "This is all about just letting go into my words," then you know you don't have a great teacher there and that maybe that you shouldn't be trusting them.Brett: It's a good litmus test. A teacher should be able to receive that mistrust. [chuckles]Joe: Yes, should be able to receive that mistrust, especially if you're taking ownership; and if you're not taking ownership and they point to the ownership, then also a teacher worth trusting. Yes. That's an easy way to look at it. Yes, you're right that to some degree, all of these things are the things you're working on as well as the things that you need to be successful at it, so then it's just an order of operations thing. It's make trust your first thing to work on. Don't make your mommy issues the first thing. Make trust the first thing. It's probably relates to your mom issues or your dad issues, but make trust the first thing and really focus there. Yes.Brett: Another feature of this is that it creates a positive feedback loop. The safety, trust and vulnerability and seeing beyond the intellect, maybe are the things that are initially holding you back, but then as you work on them more and more, the speed of your development increases.Joe: Yes, that's exactly right and it becomes more enjoyable, which is the speed, it becomes far less important than the enjoyment. If you enjoy your entire developmental journey deeply, who cares how fast you're going and who cares when you're going to get there, you know?Brett: Yes. You start to get to that point where you feel that restriction: "Oh, I'm interviewing Joe, I'm feeling restriction now." Then you're like, "Oh good. This is something to work on." Instead of, “No, I want to go away." [chuckles]Joe: Yes. That's a beautiful pointing. That's a great way to think about all of this stuff is, that there is a point in that path, where everything that's uncomfortable, you trust. That uncomfortable thing approaches and you say, "Oh, I can trust this thing because it's going to teach me something. I just have to be vulnerable in it and take full responsibility." Yes. Beautiful.Brett: Tell me more about how to approach this?Joe: How to approach [crosstalk]?Brett: How to first set those conditions and the spiritual path in general.Joe: Approaching the spiritual path-- what I mean by that is, what's the best way to be on the path, right? If those are the conditions that are important for you, make sure they are met before you even are packing your bag. That's the tent and the food stores. This is about, how do you walk down the path? When I say, "The approach to a path," that's what I mean. It's like, how do you walk down it? How you walk down the path is-- you know some of this stuff, because of the 18-month course you did, but I have it as to five principles of how to be on the path.One is loving accountability, which basically means that you're honest with who you are and what you've done without shame. It means that you can apologize to somebody, that you can take an honest inventory of yourself, without shame. That you can look at yourself directly and not feel like you have to be any different. That's loving accountability and it's approaching life in that same way. It's asking those around you to meet you in that place.An example of that would be to say to the teacher, "I'm having trust issues and I don't want to be having trust issues." It's kind of loving the accountability to say I have trust issues because that might be making them responsible. That full loving accountability is that I have trust issues and I don't want to have them. I want to be able to trust life, I want to be able to trust people. That's full loving accountability. Then embrace intensity is, it's not creating intensity, which I think some people mistake it far often, but it's embracing intensity.It's a business theory as well. It's like being a great CEO, one of the biggest things about it is just making sure the right amount of attention from the organization is going to the right parts of the organization. Are we being attentive to our problems? Are we being attentive to being proactive? Are we being attentive to our culture? Are we being attentive to our customer? How much attention is going where and the most--Brett: And where there's intensity, that's generally where that attention needs to go. [chuckles]Joe: Correct. That's right. Just like in the body, if there's pain, it's that pain is telling you, "Hey, this is where you pay attention." If you want to take care of yourself, pay attention to the pain. It's the same thing. I call it intensity because it's not all pain because it can be pleasure. Often what we avoid more than pain is pleasure. People have a hard time seeing that, until they see it and then they're: "Whoa." I always say it's subtle till you see it. In that moment when you actually notice: "Oh, it's more intense for me to be in deep pleasure than it is for me to be in pain," that's a moment. That's embracing intensity.The other principle is everything is an iteration. It just means that there's no way of getting it right, there's no complete, there's no finish line, there's no done, there's no I'm going to get it, there's just what's the next experiment? What's the next adventure? How do I learn? What can I learn from what just happened? There's no blame, there's no shame, there's just play.There's just moments of, "Let's do it this way, okay now let's do it this way." There's just a trust that you're going to keep on iterating and it's going to keep on getting better and you're going to learn and there's no need to think of anything that you've done as right or wrong." I can hear the brains out there already going, "But if you kill somebody that's wrong." I would agree that killing somebody is not how we want to behave.If there is a person out there, who has killed somebody and they're not going to be caught, my hope for them would be that their mindset is that of iteration. That their mindset is for example, "Okay, well that felt shitty in my body and I feel horrible and I'm still thinking about this thing and my guilt is creeping up on me and my life has gotten worse and it didn't make me any happier and it didn't solve my problems, so let's do a different iteration next time I have a problem with somebody." That's what I would hope that they would do. Brett: That brings up a great point because a lot of what happens and soldiers that come back from war with PTSD, a lot of the PTSD isn't around what happened to them personally but it's perhaps around the fact that they killed somebody and they did it in anger or rage in the intensity of the moment and that they actually enjoyed it or just something about having done it makes them feel like a monster. They think that that's just some core part of themselves that's unchangeable and makes them bad. Then holding that core belief, just causes so much more suffering and pain in their lives and the lives of those around them.Joe: Yes, that's right. That's exactly it. We are never finished. There is no moment of perfection; and we are reacting to an environment and we're iterating-- that same person-- never going to Iraq or Iran or wherever people are fighting these days, that same soldier, if they hadn't hit that environment, what would they be thinking about their core selves? It's a very iterative thing and I think it's really important to have that mindset and that change not only can happen, it's the only thing that you know will happen. Yes, so that's it.I would think being curious is really important as well, that's the other way of approaching the path that's really important is being curious. This is one of the most enjoyable ones. Let's take that person as an example who feels like, "I'm a bad person because I killed people." What if you're curious about that? What are the questions that actually come up? Instead of knowing that you're a bad person, what would be the most curious questions about it?Brett: What was I feeling, that led me to take that action?Joe: Yes. What makes me not want to kill everybody right now? If that's who I am, what's stopping that in me right now? If that's who I am, what's making me keep on beating myself up over it? What's the part of me that's beating myself up over it, if it's essentially who I am? If it's essentially who I am, what makes me not go to the grocery store and kill a whole bunch of people? There's just curiosity and it frees it up because your fear and curiosity can't exist at the same time.If you imagine yourself running from a tiger. Really, close your eyes for a moment. You're running from a tiger, this tiger is fast and it is hungry and you are running and feel the fear coursing through your system and you're moving as quick as you can and it's catching up on you and you can hear its breath and it's going to get you. You can feel that fear in your system and now wonder how much does the tiger weigh? [Brett chuckles] All the fear goes away. You can't operate from fear if you're curious.It doesn't just operate in the way that I can be curious if I'm not scared. It's why safety is so important from earlier right, because you can't learn, when you're scared. You can also just turn on curiosity and it just reduces fear, just like if you turn on fear it reduces curiosity. That's a cool one. Then the last one and I'd say the most important one is connection. That it's really important to stay in connection, in connection with each other, in connection with yourself, in connection with your body.Brett: What does that mean?Joe: It means being in contact with. It's being in contact. Like you were saying earlier that before when you're thinking about emotions, you're like, "Well, I don't know how to be in my body, all I have is disassociation." A contact means literally like touching. It's to have that point of contact.Can I just touch into the emotion? Can I just touch into the pain? Can I just touch into you? Can I just touch into me? Can I touch into that part of me that I don't want to see? Can I touch into that part of me I'm not proud of? Can I touch into that part of me that is proud?It's connection. It is what allows the tree to evolve, it's what allows us to evolve, is a connection.Brett: Tell me more about how embracing intensity or being curious about the lion that is about to eat you, how is that enjoying yourself? [chuckles] How does that help you get away from the lion?Joe: Yes, that's a great question. On the lion part. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that you should wonder how much a lion weighs or a tiger weighs if they're chasing you. Our system isn't curious when we're in fear for a reason. If you are in fear over something else, like what color of car you should buy or if you're going to get fired, yes, being curious is far more enjoyable than that. Being curious about being fired is far more enjoyable than worrying about being fired.The curiosity is-- you can just feel that in your system. If you just take a moment and you can pause here; and just feel what it's like to know shit and you say "I know, I know what you are, I know what I am," and then to be curious about who you are. You can just feel there's more enjoyment in the body.Embracing intensity is a little bit more complicated as far as enjoyment goes. It's the embrace part of it that makes it enjoyable. Intensity happens, you can't stop it. The Buddhists talk about it and they say, "Pain occurs, suffering is the choice." It's the embracing of the pain that prevents the suffering. The enjoyment is embracing something that you can't avoid or that if you avoid, it's less enjoyable.Meaning if you're a heroin addict, you can avoid the detoxes, you can avoid withdrawals, but it's not going to make an enjoyable life. At that moment, you want to embrace the intensity of the withdrawals. Part of it is the embracing of it when it needs to be done or when it's unavoidable or when it's just better to face the intensity than not, which is almost always. Sometimes we create intensity which is not necessary, but if we're not creating it in a conscious way, then embracing it is great. In fact, embracing intensity is one of the great ways to stop intensity from happening in our lives.Brett: Got it. In a way you let it move through you and change you. Then you learn the lesson in the intensity.Joe: Exactly. Yes, that's exactly it.Brett: Tell me more about what happens on this journey? What are some of the pitfalls, or some of the things that might be surprisingly enjoyable?Joe: Being on the journey, the pitfalls in my mind are slightly different but the being on the journey is there's just some things to know about it. One of the things to know about it is that the way human beings learn is a back and forth nature. It's a pendulation, is the word. I don't even know if it's a word, but it's the word I made up or I'm using depending on whether you can find it in a dictionary. There's a back and forth nature to it.If you look at a baby and a baby learns to walk, they don't just crawl, then one day stand up and walk and then never crawl again. That's not how we learn. We don't learn all at once. We learn by going back and forth. In fact, what they know is that when that back and forth doesn't happen, particularly in babies crawling, that their brain develops differently and it's not a good thing. If you pull a butterfly out of the cocoon, it won't be able to fly. What we think to be struggle or friction, that pendulation of going back and forth, is really a necessary part of the learning process.What you'd normally hear people talking about when they're on the journey, they say for example, "Man, it was doing so good and now it's all gone." Or something like, "Man, I was feeling so blissed out and now all that's gone. How do I get it back?" The other way to look at it is to say, "Oh, cool, that's gone. I'm in the learning process. This is how learning goes." There's a way of looking at it that says, "Oh, cool, it's gone away," which means that I am as much in the learning process as when it's there and I am getting closer; because it's gone, I'm getting closer to a life where that's fully understood and fully recognized. That's a really important thing.Brett: That relates to something else I've seen when somebody starts going through this journey and then all of a sudden they start feeling more emotions that they label as negative and they're like, "Oh, no, I had done all of this work and now all that work is undone and I'm a total mess." [laughter]Joe: Right, which is not. That's beautiful. It's not at all the case. One of the things that could be happening is they're just recognizing that they're having the emotions instead of just taking them out on people when they didn't recognize it before. That's common. The other thing is that they're able to handle them now. One of the things that I'll talk about often, is that we'll do a lot of exercises, where people really increase their love and you'll just notice this happiness.It's like when people can love themselves, then every part of themselves that was unlovable, comes to the surface to be loved, or the next wave of them. It's like shining a light in the water at night to attract cuttlefish. The more work we do, the more attuned we get. If I make an album, which I did in my 20s, I made a Rock 'n' Roll album, I can't listen to songs the same way before and after, I'm so much more sensitive to it, but that allows me to understand and enjoy music in deeper and deeper ways. That's the same thing. There's that sensitivity. That's a beautiful point.Another thing to understand is that when you have big jumps in development, when these big moments happen, there's a natural step that happens which is, things go from unclear to clear to being able to affect the change. Easy way to look at this is with kids. The first thing infants-- they don't even know it's their hand, it's hitting them, it's scratching them, they don't even know it's theirs, then they recognize it's theirs, but they can't control it and then they can control their hand.Piaget calls this primary, secondary and tertiary circular reaction I think is the terminology for it. That doesn't happen just for the use of our hands, it happens when people fully access for the first time, let's say, their emotional intelligence or their somatic intelligence or their awareness. If they're finding that moment of seeing that they are their awareness. Oftentimes, they can't even talk. They're say, "What's going on?" They try to reconstruct their life, because they're like, "Everything I believe is gone, what the hell is going on?" That's the way it works.It's as if they've walked into this new world that they can't control and they can't even identify the parts of. Slowly, you just hang out in the world and everything takes care of itself, just like it does with an infant. If you don't get scared about it, then you're just, "Okay, yes, I don't know anything and I don't have to reconstruct anything." Pretty soon you're talking from that place. That's another thing to know.Development moves like a corkscrew, that's really important. If you think about a corkscrew or stock market, you're moving up into the right, in human development, just like a stock market, you're moving ahead. It's like a corkscrew. Every time you're at the bottom of that corkscrew, it's like daddy issues and every time you're at the top, it's mommy issues. Then you can have abandonment issues or whatever.You have these core things going through your life and you're refining them and they're becoming more and more subtle and more and more different as you become more and more sensitive, that you can notice more and more of the pain and agitation that you're feeling. What people often say is, "I thought I dealt with all my dad issues." It's like before awakening dad issues, after awakening to dad issues.Brett: I was just going to say there's that one meme, where it's like before awakening and there's a child with a boot on his face. Then after awakening, it's the child with the boot on his face, but you can see it's zoomed out and he's holding the boot to his face.[laughter]Joe: I haven't seen that. That's funny.Brett: That's great.Joe: I would say after awakening, he's loving the fact that he's putting his own boot on his face.Brett: It's the unclear to clear part saying, "Oh, I'm putting the same boot on my face." Then the corkscrew is like, "Oh, these are all the different ways I put the boot on my face." It's the same way each time around, but I just keep finding more and more subtle ways to heal it.Joe: Yes, that's exactly--Brett: That comes back to that pendulation, which is, "Wait, I thought I dealt with all this before. How am I--" Sometimes you're just seeing a new spin, the new turn on the corkscrew. Joe: Right, a television show isn't enjoyable if it's just everybody's celebrating the whole show. If you can enjoy being in the not clear as well as the clear, if you can enjoy the corkscrew-- there's this great metaphor and truth, it's not a metaphor in a way. They know that if two people are on a roller coaster and they're going down, same exact experience and one of them is like, "Woohoo," and one of them is, "Oh my God, I'm so scared."You go into their neurochemistry, what they know is that the one, that is scared, is releasing carcinogenic chemicals into their body and the other one is releasing anti-carcinogenic chemicals into their body. The exact same experience can be used to destroy somebody or to heal somebody.Brett: It's the same as learning neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine.Joe: Yes, that's right. The cortisol is carcinogenic if I recall correctly. That's what it is. It's, you're going to be on the roller coaster ride. How do you enjoy it? That's the question. How do you allow enjoyment to happen? That's the real question. The last thing to think about on this is, that we have our three brains. We can call them the head, the heart and the gut, or the human, the mammalian and the reptilian, or the nervous system and the emotional and the intellectual. They limit each other.Even though they're really all one, if you're really developed on your intellectual side and you're not developed on your emotional side, it's like having three pencils attached by rubber bands. One can get only so high if one is so low. The most bang you're going to get for your buck is to move the low one higher because it gives everything else the most flexibility. It's just important to know that, if the path that you're working on has stopped working, you probably neglected one of the sides of yourself, one of the parts of yourself, so that's a really important thing to know.Brett: Tell me about enjoying those things? Because this process we've just discussed is that there's going to be pendulation, you're just going to go from, "Oh, I'm healed to I'm still a total wreck." Of course, going through the same problems over and over in different ways, spending a lot of time feeling unclear and then playing whack-a-mole with these three [chuckles] parts of our nervous system. How do we enjoy this process?Joe: A good story from my life was that there's this time when we got kicked out of the house for and at the time I felt like very unjust reasons in retrospect, it wasn't a match. It was a long time ago. Every time I saw the people involved or the house, it just like this knot in my stomach just was so there. It would come and go, as all emotions do, they come in waves. At some point, I'm: "Oh, cool. There's something there that I get to learn from."It got to the point where I would literally drive by the house to hope that that feeling would come back so I could be with it and I could love it and I could spend time with that, I get to attend to it. That's what I did. I learned how to enjoy the thing that I felt was uncomfortable. That's critical and that's what it is, it is to not buy in--Even this story is a way to help you enjoy it because if you buy into the pendulation that you've lost it, then it's very hard to enjoy. If you realize it's a learning process, then it's very easy to enjoy. If you are enjoying it, the learning happens quicker. It's like a virtuous loop. The more we enjoy it, the more we want to approach it and the easier the whole situation gets.Brett: A feedback loop that we were talking about earlier.Joe: Yes, that feedback there. Exactly. Clear to unclear is another great example of it. It's really easy to enjoy not knowing. [chuckles] It's really easy to enjoy being taken. Get in a car with somebody and ask them to drive you somewhere, but not to tell you where they're driving you and not to tell you how long and just see, that can be just as enjoyable, if not more enjoyable. It's really how do you let the enjoyment in, is the question in all of this stuff. That's really the key to preparing for the spiritual journey.Brett: That's great, something to be curious about the entire way.Joe: The entire time, yes.Brett: Now, before we run out of time, I would like to get back to touching on these impediments and pitfalls. What kind of things can happen that can block this whole process?Joe: There's so many little ones that I'm thinking about categorizing them in big ones. One of the pitfalls is thinking that you should do anything. That's a pitfall. It's like finding the wants behind your shoulds and letting your wants motivate you instead of your shoulds motivate you. In essence, the journey of self-development is the discovering of the self.It is self-realization, it is self-awareness and a should in its nature is saying that you need to be controlled, that who you are in general needs to be managed, controlled, modified. Your wants are there is a general trust in who you are. If you think about it in a developmental perspective, an infant from zero years old until seven, they don't have any shoulds, there is no should in their brain. I don't know for sure, but I bet there's a culture where there might not ever be shoulds ever.In that time period, they develop more than any other time period in life. They just follow their wants. Following your wants is really the most effective way to transform and following your shoulds is the least effective way and to make it a should is really just a doubt of trust of who you are.The other crazy thing about wants that I think is really important is you take a five-year-old and they want something, they shout, "No. No. Yes. No," and they throw a temper tantrum.Obviously, when we get older, we don't want to throw temper tantrums, so we say we shouldn't throw a temper tantrum instead of getting in touch with the fact that we don't want to throw-- we have iterated, we have evolved, we now want something different, but we turn that into a should, we change that natural impetus inside us into something that we should do.Resisting resistance is another big one. People don't embrace the resistance, they don't embrace that intensity of resistance. There's a great phrase that just says, "If you can't love it, love the resistance to not loving it." That's really an important thing, is that don't fight the resistance, that's just more resistance. Another one is--Brett: How do you not resist that resistance without creating a new resistance around that? [chuckles]Joe: Yes. Right, exactly. In a war with yourself, who's going to lose? Exactly, yes. There's no way to do it, but to drop it. You just have to just stop. It's the only way. I remember that, I think it was the first time, I was about 24 years old, I went out into the woods to fast. I was looking over this ridgeline and I was noticing that I was fighting myself. Then I was noticing that I was fighting myself to stop fighting myself. Then I was noticing I was fighting myself to stop fighting myself to stop fighting myself. I was just ending up saying, "Yes, this isn't going to work."[laughter]Joe: I just stopped. That was the first moment that I realized that it's not a matter of effort, it's a matter of acceptance, it's a matter of not efforting, it's the stopping of the trying, it is the trust. That's important. Another piece that's important is skepticism. There's two forms of skepticism. One is important, one sucks for the spiritual journey.The important one is, hey, if it's not true for you, you should know it's not true for you and you shouldn't think that it's true for you because some guru said it or because some Bible said it. If there is a truth, then that truth will be apparent in you and it will resonate in you and you will know it. Being skeptical of truth until you understand it and fully feel it, is important. Being skeptical prevents you from trying, preventing you from experimenting, preventing you from being open enough to see a truth, that level of skepticism, it's getting kneecapped. It's like getting your legs cut off in a race. Then spreading that to other people is violent. That's that. Another important one is just notice when you're future or past living.One of the biggest impediments is somebody who's either future living by state-seeking like, "Oh, I want to be in that experience of state again. Oh, I want to enjoy again. Oh, I want to be awakened." The opposite of that future living, which is, "This is going to be so hard. Oh, my God, I don't want to have to do this work. Oh, I have to feel my emotions again. This sucks." Like that. Oh, boy, both of those things, it's not enjoyable. [laughs] It is not enjoyable.Brett: Just having an idea of what you're going to look like, who you're going to be once you've transformed.Joe: Yes, exactly. Not enjoyable.Brett: Projecting your current self onto your future self, "Oh, if only I was perfect in all of the ways that I currently think I should be, then I'll be done." [chuckles]Joe: Yes, exactly. [chuckles] Not enjoyable. It is like the moment is far less enjoyable when you're thinking about how you're going to end up than [laughs] enjoying this moment. If you think about the moments that you've enjoyed yourself most, you probably weren't thinking about your conclusion. [chuckles] Some of the times we enjoy ourselves most is when the proposed conclusion just happened and so there's just nothing to strive for in that moment. Then, you come to the conclusion, "Ah," and then you create something to strive for and then you don't enjoy yourself anymore.Then there's the future and past living in the past. Comparative mind is a form of this, of who's better and who's worse, it's like that requires future and past living to be able to do that. Anything like that it's also, they're big pitfalls, they're stalls in the journey. Then, the last thing about the journey that I think is really important--This is the one that gets the most is that there's this natural cycle that happens that people go through and I'm sure you can recognize it. It's, you think to yourself, "Oh, I really want to--" I don't know, we'll pick anything. "I really want to stop smoking." We'll pick an easy one, "I really want to stop smoking." Then, "Okay, I got to do it. I got to really do it. You should do that. You should do that. You should do that. Why aren't you doing it? Why aren't you doing it? Okay, I'm good." Then, you do it.Then as soon as you do it you're like, "Oh, okay. I hope this lasts. I hope this lasts. I hope this lasts." Then it's, "Oh, it's already going away. I already noticed that I'm wanting cigarettes again. Oh, shit, I had a cigarette. Oh, it's all over, I'm going back into-- Oh, crap, fuck, now I'm smoking again. I got to quit smoking. I got to quit smoking." That's the routine.All of them rely on each other and you can cut it off at any other point but one of the easiest places to cut it off is when that moment when you actually have quit smoking or you have stopped yelling at your wife or you have stopped being a victim, is to appreciate it, is to actually just appreciate that moment and to keep on appreciating it. Instead of trying to hold on to it.Brett: Right.Joe: The idea that it's going to go away, it is the thing that creates it going away. The only thing that's really there to do is just to enjoy this moment. Enjoy that it's gone and the same thing can be said when you're smoking. If you're in the middle of smoking a pack a day, how do you enjoy each cigarette? How do you enjoy the hell out of yelling at your wife if you're going to do it? Because nobody really enjoys yelling at their wife. If you can really enjoy yelling at your wife, I bet the way you yell at your wife will change. It's not going away.Brett: That circles back to a lot of the goal isn't for things to go away, it's to just watch how they shift and how they change. What is the impulse behind the behavior? Trying to be, rather than what our resistance changes it into. All of these impediments that you've just listed, all seem like different forms of resistance and so to wrap this up, since we're running out of time, I just want to ask you, how can you enjoy resistance? [chuckles]Joe: You just pointed to something which is really great, which is if you want yourself to change, it slows down the process. Want is the wrong word. If you're getting angry and you are trying to change the fact that you get angry, that is a slower process, than if you love your anger and you invite your anger in and you welcome your anger. That is a far quicker process.Brett: How can we do that without hurting people?Joe: Wait. Unless you start doing it to try to make it go away, for example “I'm going to welcome my anger to make it go away”, then it doesn't work anymore. I'm not saying welcome your anger at people, I'm just saying welcome the experience of anger that one feels when they're angry. I'm not suggesting to go and be angry at people, but to welcome your anger, to accept it and to love it. To express it in a way that's safe, it doesn't create more shame.I just want to point that, what you said was brilliant and then I think your question was, how do you enjoy resistance? That goes back to that statement of, if you can't love the thing, if you can't love the anger, love your resistance to the anger. How do you enjoy resistance? How do you love your resistance? This is the whole question of the spiritual search and the whole way to prepare, is how do you enjoy this process?Brett: That's great. This has been amazing. I think we're running out of time now.Joe: What a pleasure.Brett: Yes, this has been amazing.Joe: Awesome. Well, I look forward to the next time and it was good talking to you. More to come.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.com

Dr. Joe Martin is the creator and founder of the multi-media organization called Real Men Connect (501-c3). The goal of Real Men Connect is to help GOOD men become GREAT men, God's way. He is an award-winning international speaker, author, educator, and certified “man builder." His life story can be summarized in one simple sentence: “He went from rags to riches to ruined to redemption.”  He has dedicated his life to helping men, husbands, and fathers like you write their own comeback story or at least prevent them from having to write one at all. We provide men with a proven 5-step plan that's guaranteed, if you're courageous and committed, to help you win in the areas that matter most to you as a husband, father, and spiritual leader of your home. The men who come to us walk away better equipped and more confident to take on life and win the battles they fight every day as men.In this episode, we discuss:- His Story of Rags to Riches and Ruined to Redemption- His 5 Step Success Plan for Men (The 5 C's)- How To Create Your Own Inner Circle of Close Male Friends And so much more.Go to: https://www.realmenconnect.com/ to connect with Joe*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.

In self-discovery practices, there's this idea that the path to deeper freedom is to go through our resistance. This often sets us up with an adversarial relationship to our resistance, as if all it does is needlessly hold us back. In this episode, we discuss resistance as we might reconnect with an old friend -- exploring how it shows up in all its forms, the path to developing a healthy relationship with resistance, and all the fun and foibles we can expect along the way. "My kind of rule of thumb is go for the joy. If I don't want the resistance to change, how can I meet it most joyfully?"Brett: Today, we are leaning into resistance, how it shows up and all its forms, the path to developing a healthy relationship with resistance, and all of the fun and foibles we can expect along the way. In self-discovery practices, there´s this idea that the path to deeper freedom is to go through our resistance. This often sets us up with an adversarial relationship to our resistance, as if all it does is needlessly hold us back. The other day I read an essay by David Whyte on the word denial. I highly recommend giving the entire essay a read. We´ll link to it in our show notes. But his closing lines really caught my attention. "To live in denial is to be in very good company. Denial is a crossroads between perception and readiness. To deny denial is to invite powers into our lives we have not readied ourselves to meet." So Joe, David´s treatment of denial rhymes with something you say a lot, which is, “If you can't love the thing, love your resistance to the thing.” If denial is one form of resistance, seeing it in this light seems like a good pointer toward learning to love it. What exactly is resistance? Joe: It is an interesting thing what David Whyte is saying. It's incredibly profound, and I think it needs to be said, because it's usually the relationship people don't have with denial. It is typical that people are like, “You are in denial!” They are not like, “Okay, cool, you are in denial.” It is just something you don't hear. From the perspective of a war with yourself you always lose to see the benefit of the side, to not take the other side personally, to see the other perspective really allows you to have less of a war with yourself. From that perspective, I really appreciate what David Whyte is saying, and I really appreciate that that's needed often. I would even suggest David Whyte would also probably say there is a time to see through your denial as well. I think the main thing resistance is not being at peace with what is. That´s a great way to describe it on an intellectual basis. On an emotional basis, it usually amounts to not wanting to feel something. That's usually where resistance comes from in the emotional body. In the nervous system body, there is some fear there that resistance usually comes along to, even though it might look like anger or frustration. But for me, the most important thing to think about when I am thinking about resistance is, it's a natural step in transformation. I get very excited when I am working with somebody and they get resistant, because I am like, “Awesome, this means we are on the right path.” And it´s their path. It's not my path. It's not what I think they should do or where I think they should be. Impartiality is incredibly important, and the other wisdom of what David Whyte is saying is, it's when they're ready. What's interesting is, we are always ready for a new perspective, epiphany or seeing through something, but maybe it's not that and maybe it's not now or maybe you are seeing through something slightly different. No matter how wise your guru gets or the person you are listening on a podcast gets, they can´t be more wise or have more knowledge about you. No matter how wise you get, you don't get to have more knowledge than the person you are talking to about them or more wisdom. It's really critical to allow them their paths and not want them to be any different. Brett: It seems like it gets really easy to judge resistance. If we are not feeling something, then we could judge ourselves for not being ready to feel it. Or we could make ourselves ready to feel it when we are not. Joe: That's resistance. All of that is just resistance in sheep's clothing or in wolves´ clothing. All of that is just compounding. You can't fight your way out of a war. Brett: How can we tell when we're ready? If we are feeling resistance, there must be some part of us that feels like it is not ready to experience or feel this thing we are resisting. How can we know if we indeed are ready? Joe: I don't look at it that way. I look at it as part of the transformation, meaning if you watch a cell divide, there´s resistance there. If you watch a tree slowly over time the limbs move to find light, there´s resistance in that. If I took all the resistance or all of the tension out of your body, you would die. Evolution requires resistance. It requires tension. To me, it's not something to get in a good relationship or to get out of a relationship with. It's just to be with the relationship you are in with it at that moment. Brett: What are some other ways that that shows up personally? What kinds of resistance are there? What leads to them?Joe: Mostly what leads to the different forms of resistance that comes out is just what you have learnt, what you were brought up with. If checking out was the way you resisted feelings you didn't want to feel, then you check out. If fighting is the way to resist it, if being evasive, being defensive, sleeping, there´s infinite ways. Being super cerebral, so there's all sorts of ways that resistance shows up in the work that I do or just in a normal business meeting. You see it all the time in business meetings, people having resistance. Then you see other people get frustrated with their resistance. Instead of cool, they are resisting something, what do they know? What is it that doesn't say yeah, let's do this in them? Where´s the wisdom in that? Maybe only one percent of it is wisdom, and 99% of it is ignorance, but there's some resistance in the wisdom. There's always some. It is not so much about knowing when it is good or when it is bad or when you are ready or when you are not ready. It's really how to be with the resistance without resisting that, and then whatever movement happens. Again, what I think is so brilliant about that David Whyte poem is, it is one very clear pointer on how to stop resisting the resistance or what you quoted me saying, it is how to love the resistance. If you can´t love the thing, love the resistance. Brett: It seems what you have been describing just now is a curiosity or wonder, and that seems to turn things on their head a little bit. If we see somebody else in our lives who is resisting something, often our tendency is to point out their resistance and be like stop resisting, making it bad. Joe: In other words, change to make me happy. I want you to change right now to make me happy. Brett: Yeah, we have all done that. Joe: We have. Brett: It is interesting to think about it from that different perspective of just being curious. Their resistance isn't bad. If they are experiencing resistance and we want there not to be resistance there, then that is a pointer to our own resistance, and there's a lot there to be curious about. Joe: Yeah, and there's this beautiful thing is, encourage their resistance or encourage your own resistance. One way through is to get out of the Chinese thumblock and one way is to go into the Chinese thumblock if you know what I mean. Often if I am resisting something and I am in that struggle, I just struggle all the way, just go all the way into it. It can exhaust the resistance, or listen to it completely. Let it fully have its voice. But there is this weird thing that happens with resistance. At some level, there's a way in which we don't think we have the new tool we need because whatever we are not wanting to change, whatever we are not wanting to feel, there's a way that we have been dealing with it that has worked so far. Maybe not great, but it's been working. So to change that, it is like what´s going to happen and then the other question is what´s going to happen to me. If you´re not listening to that wisdom, if you´re not listening to, “Okay, so, I stop yelling at my dog every time it shits on my carpet, then am I going to have to live with shit?” Oftentimes if you listen to that resistance, you find out what tool is going to be there, or you can address that this part of you is disappearing, this part of you is wanting to transform. What do we see comes next? Can you invite it back if you decide this part of you wants to be back or wants to stay? Brett: Bringing some of this back into my experience, a lot of times I will experience some resistance around procrastination. There will be something I want to do. Joe: Hold up. Is procrastination resistance?Brett: There´s different kinds of resistance. For me, I mean procrastination can, I think, happen for a lot of different reasons. I think that would be a fascinating episode to get into it, but for me it often shows up as this fear of feeling the failure of not getting it perfect. Then, there´s the resistance to my not doing it, and there's this fear that if I go into that resistance in the way you said, then it will just take over and I will be stuck in it. But what you are saying is it will exhaust, so I can go all the way into the resistance rather than setting up another opposing resistance that balances it and keeps it stuck. Joe: That can work if it is fully allowed to move. But the question I would ask is on the procrastination is, what is procrastination without any resistance in it. Not any resistance to it, but like if you feel the procrastination in your system and then you feel what procrastination becomes if there´s no resistance in the procrastination, what happens?Brett: Sometimes it changes into…Joe: Not sometimes, right now, what happens?Brett: I am not feeling procrastination right now, because we are recording a podcast actively at the moment. Joe: Right, but if you did?  Brett: Let me bring that feeling. Joe: There´s something you are procrastinating right now. Brett: Yeah, so feeling into a thing I am procrastinating, there just comes a feeling, a sensation in my body of a little bit like anxiety and then the anxiety moves and becomes some kind of energy, the get up and goesies. Joe: What is that experience if there´s no resistance in it?Brett: It feels like the impulse to do something. Joe: That is what makes me ask the question. What is procrastination without resistance in it?Brett: The experience of procrastination has the impulse to do something. Otherwise, you wouldn't be actively think about procrastinating it. Joe: Exactly, you could not be doing stuff. I am not doing stuff right now, but it doesn't feel like procrastination. But as soon as I feel like I should be doing it, then there's the feeling of procrastination that comes. I am not launching a thermonuclear missile at this moment, and I don't feel like it is procrastination. Brett: Me take a nap and then fires the missiles. From the conversation, I am feeling the thing I resist in procrastinating is the fear of whatever consequences of getting it wrong and that fear, if I am not resisting, is actually an excitement about doing something new. Joe: Now, what´s the wisdom in the resistance? If you love the resistance, what´s the resistance in it?Brett: It seems like the wisdom in the resistance is, “I am doing something new, and when I am doing something new, I would benefit from being aware that I might take steps that have unintended consequences.” I can just be aware of those things. Joe: Exactly, so there's some wisdom there, and if you incorporate that wisdom into whatever is happening, that is the next step in the transformational process. There´s a step of resisting. That's part of transformation, and then there's the step of the integration of that resistance. It's also part of the next step. It's an interesting thing. Earlier, I said you can´t fight your way out of a war, and I am sure somebody in their mind is like yes, you can. You fight a war. You win, and then the war is over. But you have to stop fighting. If you kept on fighting, the war would keep on going. Then this is what we do is we layer procrastination, which is a form of resistance. I am going to resist that. That's another war, and now I am going to tell myself I should stop having a war with myself around procrastinating. I should stop resisting procrastinating. I have now created a third level of fight. That's usually the bind we get into. Brett: It feels like we can get addicted to or just used to being in that fight. Joe: That's right. There´s a way to look at all of spiritual development. I wouldn't proselytize this, but there´s an interesting mind and body experiment to do if you could look at all development, is just how much the fight can go away in a day to day, minute to minute, second to second thing. There´s an addiction to that fight. When I do business with folks, one of the things I read when I am interacting with them is just how much fight is in them. If you see somebody with a lot of fight in them, they always have a couple of people they are at battle with. Achieving goals is a battle. You are like, “If I am doing business with this person, I have to be completely okay with the fact they are going to do battle with me or they are going to create a battle I am going to get involved with.” How much fight is in a person? That's usually based on how much fight they had as a kid, how much being alive or being loved was a battle. Brett: It seems like there's a preference for embodying some way of being in which we are not fighting ourselves and interacting and collaborating with people who are not fighting themselves. How do you hold that without partiality?Joe: Beautiful, right? Then immediately my mind comes to the Bhagavad Gita, where it is like where our hero or main character says, “I don't want to fight my brother.” Krishna, I think it is. I am going to surely offend somebody. He comes down and says, “Now you got to fight.” This is– there´s no life without tension. There´s no life without resistance. You don't get to do that. You don't get to transform or grow. If you want no resistance, you get death. The idea that you want less of it or more of it is just another way to reify it and be in the fight. Brett: How do we not use this to justify being in a fight?Joe: Yeah, how do you drop a hot frying pan? How do you describe that to somebody? How do you just not swing the sword?Brett: A different example than dropping the hot frying pan is how do you let go of a DC current when you are being electrocuted and it is actually making you grab harder. Joe: That is really more accurate. I like it, because it ruins my nice little answer to the question. The problem with the question, “How we do it?”, is as soon as you think there's a way to do it, then it becomes a should and it becomes part of the battle. Brett: Or a strategy. Joe: Yeah, the strategy, and then you are looking for a result and all of that stuff. You´re really looking to do the exact opposite of that. If you put in your body this sense of trying and struggle, and you feel that in your whole body, and then without thinking about it, you immediately feel the exact opposite of that feeling, that's all that's necessary is the exact opposite of that feeling even in, say, your procrastination. It's that. There´s 1,000 ways to get there, except for there's no way to get there. There´s 1,000 ways to realize you are there. There's no way to get there. That´s I think the better pointer. Whether it´s David Whyte´s beautiful pointing of denial of denial, or whether it´s the pointing of love your resistance or if it is a pointing of just drop the frying pan, they are all just pointers to just stop fighting. Brett: If you have a relationship where there´s some fight in it, rather than making the fight the problem and trying to fight the fight, just recognizing there´s fight over here. Is this something I can hold? Is this something that is okay? Or do I need to draw a boundary and go something else, work with different people? You could do that without having to change somebody. Joe: I would say if you are in the question of that, you´re in the resistance. Brett: Oh, enlighten me. Joe: There´s moments when somebody acts a certain way and it's really clear to you. You are just like no, that doesn´t work for me. If you want to do that, you´re welcome to but just not at me or near me or I am going to go, whatever it is. You are not changing them, but you just don't allow that in your world. In that case, there's kind of no resistance. You are not in your lesson. You are not in your transformation. It's just like I know this thing for now is this way for me. But if you´re like should I do this or should I do that, maybe I could do this, typically the one people have is, “Should I just draw the boundary or should I learn to accept it?” Is it more enlightened for me to draw the boundary or more enlightened for me to accept it? If you are in that question, you are in the transformation. Therefore, you are in the resistance. You are trying to solve it. You are trying to fix it. You are trying to make it different than what it is. Brett: What if it is not from a perspective of being the most enlightened you can be? Just, you are making a business decision, and you are like, “Is it better for the business if I go option A or option B?”Joe: Same thing. It doesn't really matter what the end goal is. When I say more enlightened this or more enlightened that, I am saying it could be which would make me happier or which would be more profitable or which would be– But in all those places, it is where we are in our growth. We are in our transformation. Think about the problem you have in business six years ago, and how it was like this big, “Oh my God, what am I going to do?” Now you face that same problem in different ways once a month and it's, “Now what am I going to do?” Whatever that transformation is has occurred. When you are meditating and early in meditation, you notice that you lost track of yourself in the meditation. There´s a fight. “I shouldn't…Why am I doing this? Why am I still sitting here?” Then later there's no fight. There´s just like, “Oh, here I am.” You recognize the moment you see you have lost yourself, you have found yourself. You are not in that fight like that anymore. The resistance is that you are in your transformation. There´s a way to look at resistance and go, “Yeah, I am in my transformational process.  Good for me.” Brett: Yeah, it´s like bumping up against our edges and a sign that you are growing, but it really doesn't always feel that way. It often feels like a sign that you are not growing. Joe: Yeah, it's that tension between the two things. I want it to be different. There´s a frustration. Even like little kids when they are learning to walk, they get really frustrated with themselves when they fall down, not at the beginning of the transformational process but in it. They get really frustrated. Brett: What about the resistance to the wanting to be different itself? Because wanting to be different also has its own wisdom, and that can be something to resist on its own. Joe: This is an interesting one. Oftentimes, not that it needs to be this way, but oftentimes when somebody is beginning their journey, before they get on the journey, they are like self help, spirituality, blah, blah, blah. Then they want something to be different. Then at some point they are just like, “I don't want anything to be different. I just want to be me. I want to be as me as me can be. I want to see what I am.” There´s this acknowledgement that evolution happens. There´s acknowledgement that development happens, but it is not particularly wanting to be different. It's not wanting to improve. Generally, that seems to be the progression that people go through. My guess is, it is very necessary. It is very necessary for someone to have the phase of wanting to be different, and then there's this phase that it's very necessary that they see that that level of friction no longer serves them. That level of resistance no longer serves them, and so then they move into a different level. I think it is like almost anything we do whether it's recording sound or making movies or doing business. The more we do it, the more sensitive we become, the more refined we become in it and the more it is done with discord, the more it becomes unpalatable for us. A great musician hears something that´s a little out of tune, and they are like oh. Me, I am like what, out of tune, I like it. It has got a good beat. You can dance to it. Whereas I might sit with somebody and notice a little bit of tension in them that they wouldn't notice for 30 years or 10 years or two minutes, who knows? But as you do the work, you become more sensitive to the discord. In that, the discord of I want to be different, it stops becoming an accelerator and you start seeing it as a break. But don't go rush. I think this is what David Whyte is saying. Don't go rush and try to get to the place where that want is gone. It's got its wisdom. It has its movement. Let it have its dance. Enjoy its dance. Brett: A question that comes up for me is what part wants to be different. In a lot of these episodes, we have arrived at this place where if you stop wanting to be different, if you let go of your ideas of being different, you will naturally change and you will naturally grow. There´s a part of you that does want to be different. You could look at evolution, and species want to be different. There´s just not like a knowing somewhere of how that's going to go. It seems like if we are wanting to be different, and we have an idea of what different would look like for us, then we are using our intellect, which is a limited logic-y form of it. Joe: It might be a great form of it, too. It doesn't really matter, because a tree is going to grow the way a tree grows. We are going to grow the way we grow. I don't know, correcting is– because my intellect says so or my mind says so. This is the soil. This is the sun. This is the seed. We grow, and it doesn't mean we give up our ambition either, which is interesting, or our will. The sensation is more, that the ambition and the will belongs to something greater than us. The feeling is it is more of a universal will or a universal ambition. In some aspects, far more gentle, and in some aspects, far more powerful. Brett: What do you mean by universal power without jumping off the woo train?Joe: You are going to try to stop me from jumping off the woo train?Brett: I am going to show our listeners that I am trying to keep you on the tracks. Joe: It´s a felt sense. It's an experiential. It's like trying to describe. There´s a moment in which the sense of self changes in a kid. There´s a point where you ask them if they want GI Joewith a kung fu grip for Christmas, and they are like yeap. You are like what mom wants. She wants GI Joe with a kung fu grip. Dad wants GI Joe with a kung fu grip. Then at some point, they differentiate themselves, and they see their mom and dad might want something different than what they want for Christmas. That sense of self develops, and it seems to get bigger. It goes from I am me, to I am my family. Even in the distinguishing nature of it, to I am my nation, I am people, I am the ecosystem. As that sense of self changes, the parts of you belong to the bigger thing. You can see this all the time where people get lost in I am the nation or I am my political party, and if they feel offended, it is not just them that are offended. It's their nation that should be offended. It is projected that way. I think it's not anything different than that. It's just that the sense of self becomes bigger than you. It feels more universal or something like that. It feels more like one-ness. Brett: That makes sense. It also points to how this path can lead to better collaboration because you could start by, “This is me, I am me. I have my problems, and everybody else is in my way.” to, “Hey, we have the same sort of problem.” Everybody has got their own position that they are experiencing it from, and we can share and integrate all of our different sources of information and come up with something more complex as a result. Joe: Yeah, there are levels of it that are better with collaboration, and levels of it that are not as good with collaboration. Then there are middle stages that are kind of strange. For instance, oftentimes at one stage of seeing the world, you might go into consensus and think everybody´s voice is equal, and then that obviously is a great way to destroy an organization. There are manuals of the CIA written in the 1950s about how to destroy an organization, and consensus building and committees. Brett: Wow, tell me more about that. Joe: It is a great document. Basically, it is like a document that was written in the 40s or 50s. The CIA had a go in and destroy a business in a country where you want to destroy that business. It is like delegate all decision making to committees, make sure the committees are all over six people. If you go into super dysfunctional organizations, that´s what is happening all the time and sometimes designed that way. Maybe congress and the senate are designed to be not entirely effective, because you only want the really most critical laws to pass. But a lot of the nonprofit world is created this way where offending somebody or making a call without everybody's agreement is very bad or considered very bad. Then they become very ineffective in their work. I would say eventually collaboration just becomes nature, but depending on where you find yourself in that process. Brett: I guess it is important, collaboration remains collaboration among individuals with different perspectives rather than an assumption that everybody is the same and should end up with the same decision. Joe: Or has the same authority or has the same expertise. It is that integration of. There´s a great way to say it, which is that selfishness is the engine of unity. It's the selfish gene that makes the human, and it's the selfish human that makes the human race. It's all these selfish cells and bacteria and fungus that are all making this beautiful earth, so the interdependence is created by our selfishness. It puts you in that same perspective of without tension, there is no evolution. Without resistance, there´s no transformation. Without selfishness, there´s no unity. Brett: I think I can hear half of our audience flipping out about this right now, and there must be ways for selfishness to lead to more connection and collaboration and selfishness to lead to more resistance and fight. I think that could be a way to bring us back to resistance. A lot of the things we have talked about in this work is impulse resisted turns into a contorted impulse, that leads to disconnection, and a lot of the behaviors people consider selfish in a bad way or in a harmful way. Joe: Yeah, I mean the key to being really good at selfishness is to really understand the underlying want. The first want is, “I want to go get drunk and screw as many people as I can.” That doesn't actually satisfy you, and so then what´s the deeper want? Then, what's the deeper want? Hopefully, you don't have to play them all out, and eventually you find the deepest want. Even close to the deepest want ends up being a deeply compassionate thing for the people around you as well. There´s this idea that I have to choose between being good to me or being good to you. I don't find that experience. I find that when I am truly being compassionate with myself, almost always that action is truly being compassionate for the people around me. Brett: It seems like that also continues to relate to resistance, because we might think we want something we are used to wanting and we just get stuck in that groove. We want to start defending that want, because we have already gotten so invested in it. When we start to say that maybe we want something different, that could be the seed of denial. Joe: Or don't take that away from me, or it becomes the surrogate of something. There might be some political future that we have that most of America doesn't want anymore, but the transformation of it is so scary. The same thing in ourselves. I don't want to be watching television three hours every night anymore, but then I sit with myself for the first 10 minutes. I don't want to feel that, so boom, back to the television. It is almost like it is not selfishness that's the problem. It's almost just undeveloped selfishness is the problem. We are competing against it. It's really strange. Every time I hear somebody call themselves selfish in a session. Maybe not every time, but I will say something to the effect of when your parents called you selfish, what did they really mean? Almost to a T what they all really meant was, I want you to do something different. That's what it means. I have never called my kid selfish. It is usually just a parent saying I wanted you to do this, and you did this other thing. You are selfish. I am not even sure I believe in the word selfishness in that way. What I really like is, what you are saying is, that there are moments of resistance that will move us away from and will create an evolution of us where we can see more clearly what´s going to make us happy. We can see more clearly what's going to bring us peace. We can see more clearly what creates harmony amongst the people we love. There's something very true about that. One of the principles I live by is embrace intensity. That's exactly for that reason, which is that intensity, that resistance is– I have found the more I embrace it, the more I run towards it, the more I run into it and through it, the more I love it for what it is. The less I resist it, the more at peace my life becomes, the more loving I become, the more generous I become. For those people who don't like what I am saying, great. Beautiful. There´s some resistance to run towards. I am not saying agree with me, but feel it. Brett: That brings back to one of the kinds of resistances is, when we start to recognize something is true that we didn't want to be true. We recognize a deeper want that isn't convenient for us or doesn't seem convenient for people we are in agreement with. Some of this advice or a tool is to embrace intensity. What else can we do to recognize those moments, give ourselves the compassion to feel that resistance, not problematize it and then embrace that intensity?Joe: In a weird way, that´s like all the work that all spirituality and all psychology and all psychotherapy– It is kind of answering that question. That's all it really is. There´s our natural movement towards ourselves and our own evolution, and there is the resistance. The question is how that resistance gets met. What's the most effective, efficient or joyful way to meet the resistance? My rule of thumb is: Go for the joy. I don't want the resistance to chance, so how can I meet it most joyfully? If you think it is like fake a smile, you'll notice that's not very joyful. It's more to ask that question. Then there's also the question of who is resisting or what is resisting. That´s a great question as well. How do I love the resistance? That´s a question. How do I find the wisdom in the resistance? All of those things are hacks. The one that's most commonly not seen is, “What´s the feeling I am resisting. What's the thing I don't want to feel?” And go and feel it. Brett: I guess in the case of procrastination or some forms of resistance is the resistance itself, which brings me back to what you said earlier in this episode, about just going all the way into it, which seems counter-intuitive at first. But it makes more sense in this context, because you can just enjoy going into the resistance and be like this is what it's like to feel this resistance, great. Joe: With procrastination especially, it's really unique. That's the thing. Each form of resistance has its own little nooks and crannies. For instance, procrastination, the reason it becomes like an AC current instead of hot frying pan, so to speak, every time you think about doing the project, you are giving yourself a negative reinforcement so why the fuck would you want to do it. Okay, I am thinking about the project, and now I am beating up myself for not doing it. The project is associated with beating yourself up. Think about it. On a mammalian level, a dog comes and every time it sees you, you kick it in the face. It doesn't want to see you anymore It doesn't want to be around you. It doesn't want to approach you. Every time you approach a problem, and you kick yourself in the face. Procrastination can be really easily solved if every time you think about the problem, you then envision yourself enjoying the shit out of doing it instead of why haven't I done that yet. Positively reward yourself every time you move towards that thing instead of negatively rewarding yourself. I think this is generally the way in which the AC current happens instead of the hot frying pan, like that reinforcement that occurs. Generally, our resistance is painful and unwanted, and we associate it with the thing. I worked with a woman once who lost her dad when she was a child, and every time she thought about her dad, it hurt so she just doesn't think about her dad anymore, which is a world of denial, world of pain and of unfelt emotions, severe rigidity. All that stuff is happening. It is all because she unconsciously negatively reinforced herself, caused herself pain every time she thought of her dad. Brett: Caused herself suffering, not just letting herself feel the pain of losing her dad. Joe: If we are making the distinction the way Buddhists do, yes, which is suffering is the resistance to the pain. Brett: Something that has been helping me lately with things I am putting off or procrastinating is, sitting with what it feels like to be avoiding doing it, which invariably feels less good than actually doing it, even though the perception is doing it, I am going to feel confused. I am not going to know what to do. I don't have the answers. But actually doing it, like writing something, like writing an email, even if you don't know what you want to say when you sit down and do it, starting to type feels better than staring at it and kicking yourself in the face. Joe: Even in the [crying noise], you are kicking yourself, which is what is causing my smile right now. I love not knowing what to do and getting it wrong. Brett: That´s a funny double bind. I really actually get bored immediately once I know what to do. Joe: Exactly. If I have an email all laid out in my head, it is far more likely to take me a little time to get to it. If I am like, I have no idea what to say here, then it is more likely for me to actually do it, which just lets you know how arbitrary the whole thing is. It is the whole thing, is this arbitrary notion of what we define as what feels good and what feels bad. We define that because of our past history, because of an idea we hold about it. As that stuff starts evaporating, as we see through our ideas, as you are experiencing this podcast, hopefully this podcast has just destroyed a couple of ideas you had. That's the idea. It just pummels them, and then you are like, “Wait a second, I don't know how to feel. I don't know what to think here.”, and you are left in that place. As that occurs, all of a sudden we can create the relationship we want with it, not the one we were taught. Brett: One of the ideas I had was, I have had so many stories I have wanted to write about my adventures and experiences, and I have spent so much time thinking about what I would write. At some point, I just never did and then the moment passed. I am realizing now, triggered by something you said earlier, that in a number of those cases, I was figuring the whole thing out in my head and then eventually I knew exactly what the story was. And then it became uninteresting and receded into the background. I never actually wrote it because I wasn't actually writing when I was doing the figuring out, so nothing ended up written down. Joe: To tie it back to resistance, this is the whole I have this idea of how it is. Even that can be a form of resistance, just like you said at some point becoming better, the idea of becoming better. The idea, not the actuality, but the idea of becoming better has too much friction. The same way this can have too much friction as well. It starts becoming unpalatable. Brett: I definitely feel right now a lot of the ideas and perceptions I had about myself are somewhat broken right now after this conversation. Joe: Somebody was frustrated with me the other day. They were like you did all that. Now what I am supposed to believe? I am like nothing. Stop trying to construct a reality around yourself. See what's there. Brett: I am definitely sitting in a lot of questions now, which I am looking forward to getting into. Tell me about a time you struggled with some resistance for a period of time, and then suddenly found a way not to do it or just simply stop doing it. Joe: In my 20s, I smoked a lot of pot. I don't know if it was a lot compared to what I see nowadays, but I definitely had a pot habit. Mostly it was on the weekends, and then there was a short time it was daily when I didn't have this job. I beat myself up over it so bad. I mean I remember just like the critical voice in my head got so loud, and I became so abusive. I see that now a lot with pot smokers generally. Depression over prolonged use seems to be part of it. They are not motivated to do stuff. They are constantly seeing the faults in themselves and the world. I was just like fully in it, and no matter how hard I fought to get out, it just drove me deeper into it because the more that I was abusing myself about it, the more I wanted to escape myself and the more I smoked pot. That was a cycle I was in, and at some point along the line, I just realized what is it that I really don't want to face. What is this self that I really want to face? It was really early on in my spiritual journey. I think just after my first meditation retreat, or a couple of years. I have a bad sense of time. I just ran into that. I just ran into that feeling, and it turned out to be sadness was really the thing I didn't want to feel. It was just some emotions, some anger, some sadness. Then I ran towards it, and then pot just became, I don't want to fucking abuse myself like that. Then it was like, I like it once a week. I cleaned my house, and then– Anyways, by the time I was like 28, something like that, it was like the habit had almost completely disappeared and then it completely disappeared. I look back. I am like wait, I didn't try at all to end this thing. I didn't at all try to stop it. Now it holds absolutely no appeal. I look at it and no. Someone offers it to me at a party or something, there´s zero appeal. There is no temptation. There is no will power. There is just a lack of interest. The more I resisted the habit of pot, the addiction of pot, the more it grew, the more shame grew with it. As soon as I looked at the underlying thing and embraced the intensity, then the whole thing just kind of disappeared, just dissolved without will, without trying. It just undid itself. I find that generally that's the case. There's a place where I am in the fight. There´s some resistance, not resistance, some intensity underneath that´s wanting to be embraced. What's interesting about that is, I used to think there was some rush in that. I used to think, oh my God, I have got to embrace all the intensity. I have to fix all the issues. I have to stop all the resistance. I realize. Brett: There's only so much time. Joe: Yeah, there's only so much time. I realized it doesn't really matter if you do. It will stay there. It will wait for you. If you don't solve your pot addiction today, it will be there tomorrow. There's no rush. Whatever it is that you want to transform about yourself, it is going to stay there. The problem doesn't go away until it is addressed. You can be patient. That in itself was just another way to let go of another level of resistance, another fight in me. The way I think about it now is, I can't let go of resistance. It is letting go of life. I can't let go of that tension. The question is, “How I hold it with the most gentleness and love? How do I hold without ever letting go of it, without ever losing contact? Without ever losing the intimacy with resistance? How do I hold it as lightly, as gently, as lovingly as possible?”Brett: I really like that. That sounds like an episode. Joe: We´ll see. Brett: Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe & rate us in your podcast app. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.Links/resources: David Whyte: https://davidwhyte.com/pages/consolationsSimple Sabotage Field Manual (CIA, 1944): https://www.gutenberg.org/files/26184/page-images/26184-images.pdf

How does empathy affect our decision making? We often think we are making decisions based on intellect but in reality we make many, if not all, decisions based on trying to feel or trying not to feel certain emotions. If you look forward to all of your emotions what will that do to your decision making? "When you have empathy with someone, they are more likely to be open because they feel that you are with them, and you can't do anything to show it to them. You are just empathetic, and it just occurs."Welcome to the Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease.My name is Brett Kistler.  I am an adventurer, entrepreneur and a self exploration enthusiast.  I am here with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Joe is a business coach who has  spent decades working with some of the world´s top executives and teams developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves, each other and the world. A good entry point into this model is a mindset called VIEW, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy and wonder.  Through understanding and cultivation we learn to easefully drop into the VIEW state of mind, deepening self awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us. To learn more about this podcast or courses, visit artofaccomplishment.comBrett: When we imagine a professional environment, we often see a world where emotions are held inside and remain unseen by others, filtered out as distractions. We might focus on the business stuff, that is the logistics and agreements that seem more relevant than the feelings behind them. Even in our personal lives, intense reactions from others can feel like a distraction from the connection that we want. What if learning to be acutely aware of others' internal experiences, can give us more useful information than the words they speak? How can our personal and professional relationships change as we learn to notice and address the hurt behind an angry attack or the fear behind a hasty agreement? This is the practice of empathy, the E in VIEW. Joe, how do you define empathy?Joe: It's so hard. Empathy is so much of a feeling, more than it is an intellectual understanding, but I would say it's being with somebody's experience without losing yourself in it. That's what I would say empathy is. It's not watching somebody's experience and it's not wanting to change somebody's experience. It's being with them in the experience without losing yourself in it.Brett: Give me an example.Joe: Oftentimes when I'm working with clients, for instance, they'll be all agitated around something, and I'll just ask a simple question like, "Is this yours?" Recently there's some COVID anxiety that one of my clients is feeling and I was like, "Is this yours?" They just immediately dropped. They're like, "No, it's not mine." That's one way. That's why, kind of when you're in it. The other way to define kind of what it isn't so to speak is, you see this all the time with babies crying. Baby starts crying and some people get instantly annoyed and some people can be with that crying, and that's really a deep expression of their capacity to have empathy in that moment. There's actually something biologically that happens too after a baby cries for an extended period of time. For a man, their testosterone increases. In those first couple of minutes of crying, our capacity to empathize with that child or be agitated by that child is really kind of that linchpin.Brett: Okay. You said earlier this question, is it yours? What do you mean by that?Joe: Yes. Oftentimes, highly empathetic people go beyond empathy, the way I would define empathy. They would go beyond it and then they're not being able to tell what's their emotional state and what's another person's emotional state. This really happens to people who were children of alcoholics or children of abuse, people who had to survive by knowing the emotional state of somebody when they walk into the room. They can very much get lost in the other person's emotions and think that they're theirs.We have these things called mirror neurons in our brain, and they basically allow us to feel the state of other people on some level. Sometimes when we're feeling somebody else, we forget that we're feeling them, that it's not us that's feeling that way. In a weird way, we start feeling that way, so then it's really even more confusing because then you're like, I'm feeling it. If you ask yourself the question, is this mine, and then that can clarify a lot.Brett: Yes. That makes a lot of sense. The idea of mirror neurons is a little bit interesting. The way I see it is, that basically our entire system, all of our consciousness is mirroring our reality in some way, mirroring and correlating perfectly with it and then losing ourselves or are we correlating with it and being with it and experiencing it and learning from it?Joe: Yes. Mirror neurons in neurology is such a mystery still. What is it that allows-- Is it some form of mirror neuron that allows a whole bunch of birds to know how to turn at the exact same moment? There's something particularly around mammals, where most mammals communicate without any words, and so they're really relying on their ability to sense the experience of the other animals.Brett: Yes, social nervous system. Tell me how practicing empathy will benefit us. What does this do for us?Joe: Well, one of the great benefits is, that if anything that you have a hard time empathizing with, means that you have a hard time with that emotional state for yourself. That's fantastic because our decision making process is really based on emotions. If I take the emotional center of your brain away, you cease to make decisions, it would take you half an hour to decide what color pen-- We're really making decisions based on trying to feel or trying not to feel certain emotions, whether we like it or not, whether we think we're being logical or not. If that emotional center of your brain gets taken away, you still have all the intellect, you still have all the rationale, but you still can't make the decisions.It really helps us clarify our decision making, it really allows us to help us be with our own emotional-- and to discover where we're having a hard time being with our own emotions. If you think about your life in this way, if you think about how much of your life has been decided by, "I don't want to feel like a failure," or "I want to feel like a success," or "I don't want to feel unhappy," how many decisions have you made based on that criteria and to be able to be with all of your emotions, what will that do? If you look forward to all of your emotions, what will that do to your decision making and how does it change your emotional state? If I have sadness and I don't want to feel it, it feels very different, than if I have sadness and I want to feel it. Those are a lot of the things that'll benefit us on an inward perspective. Externally, obviously, people like it when other people are with them. If you think about your friends and the people you feel closest to in the world, you can find that they're more able to be with you than people who you don't particularly like. If you look at your friends and you say, what is it about your friends that you want to have changed, oftentimes, it fits into the category of their inability to be with you or see you for who you are. There's that whole thing, too, where it's just, we want to be empathized with, most of us want to be empathized with. It just creates a deeper connection, more loving, more capacity to love.Brett: Yes, it seems like the first half of what you described as feeling into our emotions to find out where our thoughts and rationale are coming from, and then in others being able to see behind that, too. If somebody is presenting you with a solution or an idea, whether it's a business context or in a relationship, to be able to see behind that, what the feeling is that that's coming from can allow you to address a deeper root cause or need.Joe: Yes, at least it gives you the capacity to do it. Sometimes people get upset if you do that. [chuckles] It's like, "Wow, it really doesn't seem like you're angry, it seems like you are hurt." "No, I'm not." You know that kind of-- but generally, it goes pretty well and people want to deal with the underlying thing. So many logical arguments are really not at all about the logic. It's not really about the tactics or the facts. I mean just look at most public discourse. It's not really about the facts. It's about the emotional state of people and their fear, and what they need and what they want and what they are angry about. Yes, to be able to connect with people on that level and to not tell them that they need to be different, but to actually be with them, it's a huge capacity. It really allows you to have a much deeper authentic relationship or communication with people.Brett: I think the public discourse is a great example, because a lot of people get so triggered around other people believing different facts than them. I think that that's really just coming from a lack of feeling seen, a lot of that.Joe: Yes, or feeling that they are out of control in their world, or they are helpless or that there's forces beyond them that are controlling them or so many emotions are happening there.Brett: Earlier you said this a couple of times, "To be with somebody in their experience without losing yourself." How do you prevent that?Joe: The easiest way to do it, I mean it's just a really simple way. Just put some attention in your own body while you're with somebody. If you happen to be that type that has that deep empathy and you lose yourself in the person, the traditional way people do it is, they become defensive, just whole level of defense, and they are like "No." That works, but it doesn't allow you to be empathetic. It just prevents you from getting lost in them. To be empathetic in a successful way is to maintain a certain amount of your awareness in your own body. Like right now when you're listening to me, you could also be paying attention to the bottom of your feet or you could also be paying attention to how the sound of this podcast feels in your inner ear. Then that allows you to be with yourself while listening to me and being with me and my experience. It's about as easy as that, just putting some attention in your own body.The other more intellectual way is to just be aware of when it's happening. I think that's the biggest challenge for most people is that they just don't know when it's happening. A great sign that it's happening is, if you buy into the story of whatever anybody is saying. Let's say you have a friend and they are like,"Oh, my boyfriend, and dah, dah, dah, dah, and the world and my boss and dah, dah." If you're like, "Yes, you've been victimized and we need to do something about it." Pretty much you're in them now or just the opposite. "These people are bad and dah, dah, dah," yes, then you are in them if you buy into the story.If you are with them emotionally, but you know that the story that they are telling is true within their context, but not true within everybody's context, then you're pretty much not lost in them.Brett: Yes, this sounds very non-intellectual and a lot of people are going to want to try to understand this more. What would you say to folks who want to understand or analyze emotions or just have that tendency or just want to analyze this process?Joe: [laughs] Yes, you are screwed is what I would say. [laughs] I mean we can tell you a good story. We're doing it right now. We are telling you good stories about it, but it's not going to really help. Empathy is a felt sense. It's like, say, you close your eyes and you know where your left foot is. That's called proprioception. It's knowing where your body is in space. How do you describe that logically? You can describe what it is logically potentially, but you can't really describe how to do it logically. Similar with going to the bathroom. How do you know when you are done going to the bathroom? Where is the logic? Are you measuring something? Are you timing it? There's just a felt sense, "Oh, that's done." It's the same thing. Empathy is a felt sense and felt sense can't really be described by the intellect with any kind of accuracy. It's like looking at color. How do you describe seeing green? It requires a label that is arbitrary. Logic isn't really going to do any good here for that, and it's why it's so easy to dismiss things like empathy and energy or whatever words people are using. There's a felt sense to it, and I think you find this in a lot of things, prayer, or meditation. It's really easy to dismiss those things even if you hear the logic behind them, until you feel them. Then once you have a felt sense of what prayer can do, whether you believe in a God or not, or what the felt sense of believing in a God is like, and what the felt sense of not believing in a God is like.All those things, they are a very felt sense. You can argue it night and day, but it's why nobody changes their mind on this stuff until they have a change of felt sense. If you want a logical conversation about empathy, go and feel people. Go and be empathetic and stay in yourself while you do it. That's a far better way, just experiment.Brett: That is true across all of these VIEW podcasts. These are all pointers, intellectual pointers to something that you ultimately need to feel into and experience.Joe: It's why oftentimes in these conversations they could be logically contradictory. It's because we're just creating frameworks that make it easier to feel into or realize something. It's not about telling it like a truth. [chuckles] It's not like there's one way, or there's something that's right here. There's just, “How do you want to be?'', is the question and that question isn't answered with logic.Brett: Just feeling our way beneath any fear response we have, which brings me to another question. We have been talking about losing yourself in the other person, not being empathy as you are defining it. Losing yourself in another person sounds a lot like the flight-fear response that we've discussed before, like fleeing from your experience into theirs to try to fix it. Then you'll dive into a story about why they have that experience. Then you'll create some idea of who's the abuser of the tyranny or the victim. I imagine there's something equivalent that we do in the fight-- in the freeze responses as well. How do these other forms of fear impact our ability to be present with others in their emotions?Joe: Yes, if you think about it from an evolutionary sense, we have fear. If you are really scared, it's really not time to empathize. That part of your brain goes offline and your fear response comes online. If you are in flight, like you said, you're looking at the world around you, the environment, and the actors in that environment, and you're trying to figure out how to manage those. If you are in fight, then immediately that emotion that you're starting to feel in your system is going to make you angry and you are going to try to stop it, like the angry person on a plane when the kid starts crying, and the freeze response is the disassociation. It's like a checking out. You can just watch the eyes kind of haze over. It makes sense when we are in fear, it's really hard to have any empathy at all.Brett: How do you prevent this fear response, or let it pass through you? What do you do with this, when you know a deep bodily patterning to fear in a particular business context or a relationship context?Joe: Yes, you feel it. That's the trick to all of this stuff. It's like, how do you feel the emotion? When I say feel it, I don't mean be taken away by it. You know there's just some saying that I heard the other day, it was beautiful. I think it's from some supreme court judge. I don't know, but it said, "I wouldn't give you a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I'll give you my whole world for the simplicity on the other side of complexity." What it's speaking to, is that before we start our learning process, things are pretty simple, then we start learning processes that get really complex and somewhere along the line, it gets very simple again. With emotions, it's very simple for a two-year-old, "I feel angry, and so I'm going to yell at you or punch you." Then there's the complexity of actually learning what those emotions are, what's happening, identifying them in your body, feeling them, expressing them in a way that doesn't hurt people, letting them move without resistance, finding out that they're very similar to one another, finding out that you can love all of them. Getting to the other side is, "Wow, you just have emotions again," and they're just fluid, except for, you're not run by them. You're not controlled by them. You're not hurting other people with them.The only way to do that is to actually learn how to feel the fear. If you have a fear response, feel it and invite it in. Don't put it at anybody. Most fear is not wanting to feel something, which is pretty cool when you think about it, like "I'm scared that I'm going to get fired," but if I told you, "Hey, if you get fired, you're going to feel awesome," would you be scared of [chuckles] being fired anymore? It's really us not wanting to have emotions that we're at the core very scared of. When I say feel the fear, I mean welcome it. I really mean like invite it in, breathe it in.Brett: What's a good way to tell in the moment, if we're working on empathy and how do we tell if what we're feeling in the moment is true empathy and not one of these coping mechanisms or distortions? Another one that comes up is sympathy. There's a lot about how sympathy and empathy are different and often confused.Joe: It's a wonderful question. The main thing is, are you putting yourself outside-- It's not quite outside, I guess it's above the other person. The differences in, when you're putting yourself above the other person, like subtle ways. Like you want to fix them, but for you to fix them, you have to be less broken, or you want to help them not feel it, which is assuming that you're not feeling it is the better solution.Brett: That means buying into another story and being that story like, "Oh, yes, fuck that guy."Joe: Exactly. It's just you're with them. When you're with somebody the way that we all want to be with, it's like we're supporting. We are with, but we are not saving. There's this great phrase that, I think it was from an Aboriginal community or a native community in South America, and says, "Hey, if you're here to help me, no, thank you, but if you're here to work together on our mutual freedom, let's get to work." That's really the essence of it.Brett: Another thing that happens a lot is that being empathic is often associated with being manipulable or easily taken for an emotional ride. How could it be that deepening our empathy in the ways that we've been talking about makes us less likely to fall into a fear response and abandon our needs or our boundaries?Joe: You get that fear a lot from people, they're like, "Oh, if I empathize, then I'm going to fall for them." I think that what they're thinking about that person who's fully into the other person's reality and they've lost themselves in it. If you do that, you're more likely to be taken advantage of. If that's what the person wants to do on the other side or is capable of doing, but in all cases, we don't want to feel something, if we're allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of, "I'm going to sell you this magic pill and it's going to make you skinny in two days." If you buy that, it's because you don't want to feel something anymore or you definitely want to feel something.There's something that you want to feel or scared of feeling to allow yourself to be taken advantage of. To have empathy, it really requires you to be willing to feel whatever is arising for yourself and that other person. It actually prevents you from getting taken advantage of, because you're welcoming of everything and you're not trying to get rid of it. It doesn't matter whether you're non-empathetic or like, "I'm not going to feel that person." That means you don't want to feel shit. It means that you can be taken advantage of pretty easily. Just look at the most non-empathetic people on our planet. They are the most likely to be manipulated by politicians or authorities or advertising.Then the other side of that is someone who's totally like in that other person's world. Then they're going to sacrifice themselves for it, but if you're actually like, "Oh, I can feel you, I can be with you, and whatever you throw at me, I can feel I can be with." What makes you need to do anything that is contrary to your truth?Brett: It seems another example of that is in a business relationship where somebody is coming at you with a bunch of emotion and making you responsible for something that you're not responsible for. If you're with them in that emotion, but you're like buying into their full story, then you're going to think that they're entirely right. You're going to lose your boundaries and be taken for a ride.Joe: Absolutely. If somebody thinks that you're bad and you get locked into their emotion, then you start thinking you're bad, that's exactly a great place where you're going to be taken advantage of by somebody who doesn't think they're taking advantage of you. It's by somebody who feels like they're a victim in that moment typically.Brett: Back to what you were saying about the people who are the least empathic are the ones that are most likely to be taken for a ride. Many of us simply don't seem to feel emotions in others as much as we'd like. When we start doing this kind of work is when we start to notice this. When I started to work with you, I experienced certain emotions and others when we were doing exercises. I was watching them as an ant colony. I could see and recognize the patterns, but I wasn't in it with them. Like, "Oh, I didn't have an alcoholic father. That's not my problem." I can see what that does in you, and now I can see your problem. I think I can try to analyze how to fix you. How can we tell the difference between observing someone's experience in a non-empathic way and genuinely being with them?Joe: The body is the telltale sign here. I think I remember that when we were working together and you're doing that, and I believe I came up and shook you a couple of times. Then you could feel a different way. There's a rigidity that happens in the body when you are trying not to feel, no matter how you're trying not to feel, whether it's by creating distance or disassociation, which is somewhat of what you were doing, being the watcher or wanting it to stop, any one of them. It just creates rigidity in the system. This often happens in the belly, shoulders, jaw is locked oftentimes when I do a workshop, like this one. I'll walk around and I'll hit people's jaws, so that like tap their jaws to remind them they're holding all this tight, or their belly is really tight.That's the main way, is to keep your body loose and you'll have to feel it. Our feelings are a muscular thing. Our feelings live in our muscles. If you're the person who was told you can't get angry and you are not angry, all the time now, and anytime anger comes up, you either give it to yourself or suppress it really badly, your muscles have to contract in such a way and become distorted in such a way. It's why there's a whole science behind just watching how somebody walks into a room, you can tell a tremendous amount of their upbringing.Once you know what you're looking for and you've experienced it yourself, the way a person's face is, you can tell what emotions they want to feel, or they don't want to feel. By the way they hunch their shoulders, by the way they tuck their butt, by the way that they hold their lips, how they purse them when certain things come up. It is why we have body language and it's why we have micro-expressions.Brett: Something I've noticed over doing this work is, that I've started to detect when somebody is disconnecting from me in a conversation. I can roll back a little bit and recognize that I had actually disconnected from them, then they're responding to that. It's as though the feeling for them is the difference between being with a good friend who's there with them and their experience, and being with a shrink who's psychoanalyzing them. I think that happens a lot for people who want to be there to help others. A lot of it comes from wanting to deal with their own pain, their own history. I think this happens a lot in therapeutic communities where people take the therapeutic role, but they're really analyzing and they're not being empathic.Joe: It happens definitely in some places there. It happens just with a lot of people who find themselves like the savior or helper of their group of friends. You'll see a lot of that happen. The truth is what-- Sometimes what that is, is they're trying to manage their life by managing other people's emotional states. [chuckles] If you feel happy, I'll be happy. If you're not angry, I'll be happy. If you're in a good mood, I'm in a good mood, and A, it doesn't work and B, you can't change people's emotional states and C it's just far more enjoyable to be with them in the emotional state.Brett: Which comes back to that self empathy thing we're talking about, like, as I've experienced my ability to actually have empathy with others has directly grown from my ability to actually feel that equivalent feeling in myself.Joe: That's right, that's exactly how it works, is our capacity to love the parts of ourselves is directly correlated to our capacity to love the parts of other people and other people in general.Brett: Sometimes being empathic with somebody and holding a highly charged emotion can leave us with a sort of static residue in our system. It can linger or put us on tilt. It takes time for integration, or just leaves us feeling that thing for days. For some people, this is really strong, the empaths. The self-identified empaths will just avoid certain situations, because they are like, “I just can't handle that energy.” How can we navigate this and be deepening our empathy without closing ourselves off or avoiding situations, especially if we are frequently going from one high energy interaction to another in business or something else?Joe: Yeah, I had to learn that really the hard way. For me, when I started coaching people and you know the depth in which the coaching can happen. I would go from that to a conversation with negotiating lawyers over points on a contract, and then back into a coaching session. I had to go into these big, highly charged things, one right after the other, and similarly when I do the seven day really deep retreats, it is like one emotional baseball bat after another in the best possible way. Brett: With real baseball bats sometimes. Joe: Right, but obviously not hurting anyway. It is something I really had to learn. The main thing is avoid it, and the way you avoid it isn't by not feeling the emotion. It is by being in your body. It's just putting some of your attention in your body while you are with other people and their emotions so you're not losing yourself. That's a huge thing. If you do that, as you get better at that, that takes care of about 70% or 80% of the problem. Then the other stuff, it is really about grounding. It's about staying grounded, realizing what's yours and not yours. Your body and your breath is the best way to do this. Releasing whatever emotion residue you have, letting the tears flow, shaking it off, grounding yourself in the different ways people can ground themselves. There are some tai chi moves that can do that, yoga moves that ground you. Brett: Just asking, “Is this mine?”, that was a really good one from earlier. Joe: Yeah, is this mine? There are some things to calm the nervous system down, different breaths. There are all sorts of things you can look into. If you go into any kind of system that says how I ground, no matter what kind of system from functional medicine to this, you can find those things and they work really well. My personal favorites are deep breath, walking barefoot, sitting in silence, meditation. Those things, I feel very grounded in those things. Massage will help me feel grounded probably quicker than anything else. Brett: If you are going straight from a sprint planning meeting where everybody got in an argument, started yelling at each other, and you are carrying that energy straight into a performance review. You really want not to take that out on the person you are reviewing. You have got like five minutes between them. Joe: First, I wouldn't buy into the story you have to. I would say I am not prepared for this meeting right now emotionally, and I would rather give you the actual emotional attention you deserve. Let's postpone it. That's one thing, obviously. For instance, if there's a big fight in the sprint meeting, I would probably enjoy it, because I could be with the anger and energy, and I would say look at all these people who really give a shit. They really care. They really want it done right, or they wouldn't be fighting. Brett: Way better than a bunch of apathetic checked out people. Joe: Exactly, and because I would be enjoying the tension, it would also change the dynamic in the room, the anger, because so much of the fighting that happens is based on a level of resistance, because unresisted fighting feels very much like clarity and decisiveness and a deep care. Again, staying in your own physical sensation is a huge part to prevent it, but I mean literally just shake your body for two or three minutes between the meetings can work. Taking deep breaths can work. Getting in touch with what's aware of your emotional state instead of your emotional state can work. Yawning 10, 20 times in a row can work. Having a quick cry. Crying doesn't take very long. It can be a minute or two. All of those things can work. Brett: Can you tell me a couple of stories about how empathy transformed a situation for you in a business context, something like this or different?Joe: I remember a time when I was fundraising. I can't remember, somewhere in like the $10 million range of fundraising. I just noticed that I was with the person who I was talking to and I noticed that they were getting distant. I just said, “Wow, I notice you are getting distant. I notice something turned you off. What happened?” That is what allowed for a far deeper conversation about what they were looking for, what about my attitude had scared them. We could address it directly. I got to learn that I was objectifying the person probably a little bit more than I would want to. They could learn that they were in a past deal, not in the current deal in front of us. That's a good example of one. Same thing, raising money, I have been able to empathize with the people on the other side of the table to realize they have objectified me or they see me as an employee rather than a partner. I don't want that. I think investors who see their investees as employees, they are dangerous. You can sense it by the way that they keep a distance from you or how they hold themselves emotionally with you instead of the way somebody who holds you as a partner. That has prevented me from having some really bad investors that way. Another example is selling. Oftentimes you see in a sales process a customer goes into resistance, and the salesperson tries to convince them, which puts them into more resistance instead of saying be like, “I notice something is not working for you. What's going on? If this isn't working for you, I don't want you to do it. If it's not working for you, there's a potential there's a misunderstanding so I would like to clarify it. But I don't want you doing something you don't want to do, because then I just have an unhappy customer, and that's not good for business.” You can't really do that unless you can feel the person. Brett: What are some other examples, like working with peers, for example, or within a team?Joe: For instance, I hear something from managers all the time. They are like, “We all had alignment, and then nobody did it. We all agreed. We all sat in the meeting. We all agreed and nobody did it.” I always say, “In that meeting did you feel like they were excited?” “No.” I am like, “Okay, what stopped you from saying I don't feel the excitement in the room. What's preventing the excitement?” You can't do that with anything beside empathy. If you are addressing the emotional reality instead of just the intellectual reality, because people, like I said, make decisions based on emotions. That's why people can all agree to something in a meeting, but if they are emotionally resistant, they are not going to go and do it. You can feel into that resistance, feel into where the excitement is, feel into what's being held, where the rigidity is in the room and clarify it. That makes things far more--  It's the same with product development. Kind of a famous thing where people spend a lot of money on a focus group, and then the focus group goes, “This is great!” Then the product fails, or vice versa has happened too. It is because they are asking them about emotional decisions through the intellect. Sometimes it works, but it's not a perfect translator. It's really feeling your customer. It's really feeling, what makes it important for them to buy it. Henry Ford said, if I gave my customers what they wanted, I would have given them a faster horse, but you put a person behind the car, and you see them drive it and what happens to their face, and you see the way people look at them and what happens in their faces. It's pretty clear who is going to buy what. Brett: I've always thought that one was interesting, the faster horse thing, because it's not really what they wanted. If you asked them what they wanted, if you asked them the solution that would have solved their problem, they might have bought a faster horse, but really what they wanted was better transportation. Joe: Exactly. That's the exact point. The intellect is limited in its capacity to see what the emotions want. Transportation was horse and feet at that time, so that was the limitation of the intellectual part of it. But if you looked at the emotional experience, then you know there are other solutions. Brett: I think this happens in product research all of the time. The research will be conducted in some way where it is like, what do you like better, the red plastic or the blue plastic, and you will get an answer. You will have a meeting where there's a graph that shows how much of the market wants this versus the other thing, but you missed the deeper question and the deeper emotional connection to the product. Joe: That's exactly right. It's why there's a felt sense to great design. You see something designed with beauty and you feel it. You go, “That's beautiful!”, not just beautiful as in looking, but the design is elegant, and there's a felt sense to that. It makes it appealing to us. There's no way you are going to use the intellect to describe that, unless you have been trained in design for years. Brett: How will we see our lives and our work change as we deepen our ability to feel our emotions and empathize with others? Some of these good examples are good examples, but what are some other things that would happen in our lives?Joe: Decisions become more clear, because we are more likely to feel emotions and be happy to feel emotions. We start caring for people instead of care taking them, meaning we are not trying to make them feel better. We are just being in support of them and therefore we get that in return as well. You get more people who are happy to be with you. You also see the people around yourself, and you become more and more empowered. As you stop fearing all of these emotional states, then you just stand in your truth more and more and more. There's just a deeper level of empowerment that happens, for you and for the people around you. One of these things, I was working with a CEO of one of the companies, and he tended towards care taking. Obviously, because he is care taking, there are a lot of people that fall into that victim thing in this company, and there was this victim mentality in the company because he felt responsible for them. As that changed for him, as he could be with people instead of taking care of people, all of a sudden the decisions that could empower them could start to be seen. Instead of coming in and saying, “Here's how we are going to fix the world.”, he would say, “How do you want to fix the world? Clearly, you are unhappy. How are you going to fix it?” He would empower people to fix their own problems, and it changed everything for his company. Brett: You can just use my name when you are talking about me. Joe: That wasn't you. You were not the person in my mind when I was saying that. Brett: I know, but I just felt it as like yeap, that's exactly been my journey. What else happens? A lot of times when we do these kinds of practices, there are shifts in our lives that are short-term uncomfortable or destabilizing. Is there anything like that that would happen with practicing deeper empathy?Joe: As the emotions start to get felt and the resistance isn't worked through, it can be a bit turbulent. It's not the emotions that are uncomfortable. It's the resistance to them. There can be a little bit of turbulence. There can be moments of tears where you would prefer there weren't tears. They don't happen very often. They are pretty rare. People are like I am going to be crying all over the place. It is like I cried at this one place, and actually somebody came up to me and said something sweet. Yeah, it can be a little bit turbulent. There's also this idea that if I allow my emotions, then they are going to take over me and control me. It's the projection you have been controlling your emotions, so you think they are going to control you. It doesn't happen like that. I have seen anybody at all of the thousands of people I've seen go through this process, I've never seen any of them who are like, “I am controlled by emotions now.” Brett: Damn you, Joe. Joe: Exactly. It has never happened. I would say that. The biggest thing is what we have really harped on, on this talk-- If you empathize with losing yourself, that can be really damaging. Learning how to be in your own body while you are empathetic is so critical. I just even recommend for the rest of the week, put some of your attention into your physical body during every conversation. See what that does to your world. It will rock your world, if you do that for every conversation for a week. It will just rock your world.I just say it's important to take it slow. I would say if the emotional tube is kinked, just be gentle with the unkinking. Take it slow. Brett: There's the wisdom in taking it slow, and there's also another side of that, that I can see. A lot of times these emotions are stacked on each other. You get beneath one of them, and you let yourself feel it. You might get yourself to feel the anger, but then if you don't feel the hurt underneath the anger, then a completely different thing starts controlling you. You get the disruptive thing going on in your life, and you are entering another pattern. There's like being gentle with yourself and taking it slow, and then there's being curious about how far down it goes and what's beneath this one I am not feeling. Joe: I would definitely agree with that. To think there's an end is no good. It's not going to be servicing your journey at all, so seeing it as endless, being curious about it, being vulnerable with yourself about your emotional state, being impartial with how you feel. You can use all of those tools, and use it for this empathy. It might upheave and you might find yourself bawling, crying and shaking. All of that can happen while being gentle with yourself. Brett: What are some ways empathy can go wrong? What does it look like if we are trying to be empathic, we aren't quite there so it is shallow or it is false? How could it be used directly as a weapon if somebody starts using these practices and they are like, “I could actually use this to manipulate people? What happens then? How does that look?”Joe: Creepy, you can see it. The difference between a good interviewer and a bad interviewer is one is using real empathy and one is faking it, and you can tell. It makes your skin crawl on some level. It might work for some people, but it is only going to work on a small percentage of them where empathy creates connection consistently. You can use empathy as a tool. They do all these skills that are based on that, mimic their body language, nod yes when people speak, and blah, blah, blah. Brett: Mirror the last three words of the thing they said. Joe: Use their name in the front of sentences, and blah, blah, blah. You can do all of that stuff, but if you are not in empathy, it comes off as false, fake, and gross. We have all been with that person, but if-- you could do all of that stuff with deep empathy and then it's actually quite appealing. It is really the empathy that is appealing.I think the reason those tools work when they do work, sometimes is, because they actually hack the mind into empathy. Brett: They are disarming, and if the intent is to disarm, then it can get you closer to it, to disarm yourself that is, not to disarm the other person as a trick. So what are a couple of summary bullet points on how all of what we have discussed would apply to a VIEW conversation and practice with the rest of this course?Joe: One of the things is you can ask questions. You can ask how, what questions that are based on nonverbal cues, on empathy. “Wow, it feels like you distanced yourself right there. What happened?”You can say, “It looks like you don't agree with that. What's going on? What's happening with you right now? How did that feel?” You can ask questions like that, and people generally stay up on the intellectual and won't ask questions on the moetional. Brett: And in a curious way. “I saw you disconnect there. I saw you disconnect there. I know it. Tell me.”Joe: Empathy as an attack. That's right. Also, basically, you'll notice that, when you have empathy with someone, they are more likely to be open, because they feel that you are with them. You can't do anything to show it to them. You are just empathetic and it just occurs. Like I said earlier, there's this creepy thing where people know you are managing them, and when they do, they back off. You don't have as much data. You don't get as much truth. You don't get to see the problem as it is. You don't get their ideas for solutions. With empathy, you get all that stuff. You get more data, and more ideas for solutions. Brett: Or the solutions you get from them are actually their solutions to get you to stop managing them. Joe: Exactly. Also, if you are in empathy, you can catch yourself being partial. If you are using empathy and you see somebody have an issue with you, you can be like, “I was being partial. I will catch my own partiality from being empathetic to their response to me.” Brett: Like the way I was describing earlier, when I catch somebody rolling back, you are like, “Wait a minute, I see what I did there.” Joe: Exactly. Brett: As you close, I would love for you to tell us about an impactful experience you have had, that caused the deepest increase in your empathy for others in the shortest amount of time. Joe: I want to give you two. The first one was, I was having this experience where I realized where I really just did not want to be with people who were having meaningless conversations. It was so annoying. “I was driving 65 miles an hour.” “Really, 65?” “Yeah, 65 miles an hour down to Santa Barbara.” Uh, it was so frustrating for me. I was like “What is it that I don't want to feel? What is it that's happening for them, for me that I don't want to feel?” I just opened myself up to it. It was awkward. I would be weeping in these conversations that were seemingly benign. After two or three weeks of that, maybe a month of that, the personal recognition that came through it was so critical to my sense of self, that I had to be valuable. The idea that I might be spending time where I wasn't valuable, it was so hard on my system I didn't want to feel that kind of sense of worthlessness.  That was an internal thing. Then to have the freedom to be worthless. “Oh yeah, I am happy to be worthless, and I am happy to be of value.” Having that freedom was tremendous. Then my capacity to immediately be with people who were having that level of conversation happened, and what I realized is, even in that level of conversation, there are different forms of connection going on. There are different ways people are connecting that aren't verbal, that aren't about the immediate intellectual thing that's up front. This one wasn't as quick, but it was bigger for me, which was getting in touch with Hand in Hand Parenting, which is really one of the main tools I learned empathy from. One of the tools in that is, it is called Parenting by Connection, and it allows parents to be deeply connected with kids, kids to feel deeply connected. The thought process is when kids feel connected, they naturally want to behave in a way that´s enriching for themselves and the family. All of the tribulations that we feel from children is just them being out of connection, and so how do you get them back into connection?One of the tools, they have five very simple tools. One of the tools is, stay listening. It's like allowing the kids to have temper tantrums, and being with them in that temper tantrum and even encouraging it to move through and making sure it doesn't get stuck. I was not good with a lot of my emotions when I started doing Hand in Hand parenting. I got good with them really quick. All of a sudden, I have a tremendous amount of emotional freedom I didn't have before. All of a sudden, my decision making got so clear, because I couldn't be with my child's temper tantrum until I could be with my own. I couldn't be with my child's anger until I could be with my own or their tears until I could be with my own. That process of empathizing and being with my children gave me so much more freedom. Brett: How did these two stories impact your ability to have value for people? Joe: I don't care. I mean if I were to look at it, seemingly I am more able to be more valuable to them, because I can be with them in a deeper way now, and I am not judging them or myself. That seems like that's probably more valuable. The bigger answer is it doesn't matter to me anymore. Brett: I love that paradox, the driving wound of your first story to just not caring anymore, actually having that impact. Joe: It was a great conversation. Thanks so much, Brett. Brett: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment.  If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe & rate us in your podcast app. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.Links/notes: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." ― Henry Ford“For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give you a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, for that I would give you anything I have.” ― Oliver Wendell Holmeshttps://www.handinhandparenting.org/ - a nonprofit that provides parents with the tools and support they need to listen and connect with their children.