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So We're back with the weekend edition for 2020... the last was in 2017 just before Teresa May's snap election. This week, Brexit and a light take on the news

We're in 2020 now so I thought i'd start the podcast back up again as a different season. Its mostly because now I can use a different picture and It gives people a new place to start from If they don't want to listen all the way through the older episodes. So We're back in business and this time I'm gonna do Wednesday episodes for a bit. I might not keep them but well we'll see. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thomas--hunnemeder/support

We are back with a new season of Talk The Ska! What does that mean exactly? Well, there are segments now of sorts. Ska news to speak of outside of just what's being played. Featured bands and synergetic catch phrases! So We're figuring it out as we go along. What we do know is there's loads of great ska from Something To Do, Bruce Lee Band, The Skalars, The Abruptors, Just Say Nay, The Void Union, Los Beretta, No Authority, and Alla Spina

Welcome to SideQuests Live actual play audio podcast edition! New DnD5e campaign. First episode (with recap prologue)  We're trying something a bit new - our focus has been livestream video enabled games but we are now also adding an audio only actual play tabletop roleplaying game. Due to construction on our streaming studio we aren't able to do the livestream for a little bit but really want to keep gaming. So We're doing recorded audio podcast format and likely doing both moving forward.  We also return to the venerable Dungeons and Dragons with me as storyteller. Recorded live on location, with the authentic feel of being at the table with friends.   We will continue to produce our video edition and play both Shadowrun and likely D&D but are currently (slowly) constructing our studio. So for now audio and recorded games is a lot more manageable. We love the live audience interaction and will definitely return to that as soon as possible. In the meantime you are welcome to send suggestions for names or other ideas to our Instagram or Twitter and we will still incorporate those suggestions into our games. Watch our Instagram for our #NOS or #nameourstuff posts and keep the creative input coming! That's the thing about RPGs -  You do really make it so much better than just one person crafting the story, and your input makes that even better! Thanks and see you soon   - Todd

Introduction Universal Windows Podcast – Episode 89 You can enjoy us on Spotify and iHeartRadio now – great for streaming! We are starting up our regular cadence – look for podcasts on a weekly basis With special guest Saptashwa Bandyopadhyay Word of the Week Enjoy a sip of your favourite beverage each time either of us says "Watch". News of the Week  Apple iPhone XS event The iPhone XR starts at $749 (64GB), pre-orders start Oct. 19, shipping Oct. 26 iPhone XS starts at $999 (64GB), pre-orders start Sept. 14, shipping Sept. 21 iPhone XS Max starts at $1,099 (64GB), pre-orders start Sept. 14, shipping Sept. 21 Microsoft Product Launch Oct 2nd Colin - No ARM – LTE Sap – ARM David - Updated Surface Laptop and Updated Surface Studio  Microsoft officially christens 'Redstone 5' as the Windows 10 October 2018 Update Windows 10 laptop with 25-hour battery life? Microsoft announces Oct. 2 event for Surface devices and more Windows 10 Enterprise customers will now get Linux-like support Microsoft updates 'Your Phone' for Android with SMS support  Rant and Rave Colin complains that the Microsoft store in Syracuse kicked is 14 million kids Outro Call for your help with the podcast, please… Follow and Re-tweet, @SurfaceSmiths Listen www.SurfaceSmiths.com Email Podcast@SurfaceSmiths.com Whiskey of the Week Tomintoul Whiskey Episode 089 - Just Watch Me Windows Microsoft MVP Insider Surface Phone 2018, The Surface Smiths Podcast Universal Windows Podcast http://surfacesmiths.com David and Colin Do Stuff Edit TranscriptStop Play-on-click   Export...? Transcript [0:07] Hello I'm Cortana welcome to the universal windows podcast the show about everything Windows such a surface Xbox phone and the windows Insider program here are your host the surface Smith. [0:22] I'm calling Smith I've Dave Smith and we have a special guest with us today David shot. Sap watch why don't we let him introduce himself. Hi guys this is Chef Joshua I am from India and I guess I'm a special guest on the show this is episode 89 for those of you that have been keeping track we haven't had an episode since sometime in July so today is September 17th that were recording the show probably be coming out by two or three days but we've had lots going on while we've been away before we before we get, too much further into it we should probably do some housekeeping guys what about the word of the week, why do we let our special guests choose a word of the week. [1:15] Fuck fuck fuck shit, to watch we got it right so we got a little bit at, housekeeping to talk about that I've been doing some traveling David for doing some traveling we will talk more about that the end of the show but since you mentioned watch, I'm guessing you might not want to talk a little bit about some of the gadgets that were announced during the Apple event last week. So happen owns the venue iphones and apple watch okay the water yeah will will do his will get into what we go right into the news and let you take that as the first segment I will get with that so I'm going to do the news intro new story of the week alright so let's take that first news item the Apple iPhone event. [2:23] So Apple announce the iPhone, 10s Russians all the people in The Colony Texas is I collected everything from Apple, yeah and when you combine it with Max it becomes excess Max which is a terrible terrible, let's get on with it was terrible names for everyone else will fail so lucky. So one of the major announcements on the 7th was the Apple Watch series for which of the Greenlight removed from the site for the celebration which is an improvement, as far as looks so concerned but the thing is they introduce ECG and their watches. Which is electrocardiogram which made me actually consider switching 2 hours just to get the watch which I have never thought about before why do you want to ECG all the time. [3:27] Elektel on further thought I don't want to listen to all the time but let's see I was in my thirties or my forties and I was thinking about my health and. We want we want to ignore our health, I guess you can do that but I have heard a lot of people out of stories about the Apple watch cashing Hartley to diseases early on, for people who might have not had an idea about the diseases because otherwise perfectly healthy, so I think it's a great achievement for apple and for the health industry overall, why do they reset technologically yet it's hard to say but I can just imagine younger people going here mom your dad buy this watch, api of this is because it i'm worried about you now mom and dad you know maybe in their seventies or eighties will remember to charge it but you know yeah apple still sell a lot of them. Okay that was my first thought actually like. My mom and dad is still a little older it's probably that I probably buy them by this for them. [4:46] I don't think so but the price will no support calls. Right by the time you're old enough that it'll matter they'll have like a 30-day battery life or something like that, what this really means apple is going beyond the communications and gadgets are really getting into the health devices field. Yeah I guess they haven't getting into Health devices filled with the CDC when they really got into the groove for smart watches and left all the other SmartWatches in the dust too so to speak because, I don't see any other compelling Smartwatch other than Apple watch Android SmartWatches are fine but, that just spoke your phone notifications I guess you guys use any smart watches. I think it looks like a nice watch which the Apple doesn't it I have a fight ionic you're right it doesn't do much. [5:49] Notifications I don't think any of the watch-like does much, things and so I'm not people really don't use a Fitbit ionic has a near field communication pay system so like Apple pay, the one thing i like about it that no other smart watch really comes close is the battery life but also it water proof and but with that regularly. [6:18] Yeah so if I was going forward or probably go for a Fitbit or something similar but if you talk about fitbit's garments for people who are. Into the health seen before Apple watch camera. One is when i people that that are doing things they don't have a heart attack the other for people that are planning to have a heart attack you and fear of market segmentation. Okay so, well here's the thing if apples really getting to the health devices it's okay it's in a bigger way the one thing that we're seeing really changing Healthcare, from a technology perspective is Big Data machine learning and AI, in the build things like crisper in the human genome project and things like that take a lot of computing power and if you start Apple starts getting Telemetry from millions of people that are wearing this who knows what they might be able to discover problem is, they don't have cloud service they don't have the backend compute to really make good use of this so this leads me to believe their partner up, only relief for options for them to partner with as far as i'm concerned one would be amazon because cloud provider in the world. [7:38] I don't know what kind of relationship Apple has it Amazon but Amazon really is not a devices company more you know they've got the Kindle, they try to phone it didn't work they tried to go the Kindle HD Fire I've got one of them but it's really not a big deal just more just Amazon consumption device, it'll come back to Amazon if I should have left them for last let's talk about Google Google I don't think apple is going to partner with Google it but it had screwed Microsoft. So who's the fourth one at IBM Facebook Facebook Facebook. Google. Ok Google and apple are going to get together on devices cuz they compete too many front potentially Microsoft because of you take a look at where Microsoft and Apple play now not a lot of overlap anymore Microsoft out of the phone business. [8:36] The switch the devices will the surface devices where they Clash a bit, us soliders and the whole ecosystem right but interesting enough so what we haven't really talked too much about anything else that was at the apple event they didn't mention any max was gonna take, are we updated on their new laptops now next month or something where they announce a lot of laptops and will update the air parenting right so, Microsoft an option I think Amazon is probably the best option very little overlap and option for was building the wrong. Which I don't think they're going to do no, owner domestic considering how the phone service Works which doesn't sync their data. And you have to lick the tag the photos again in each of the devices. To ask you to send that heater back and forth and iCloud still doesn't work perfectly iMessage, and the cloud still doesn't work so I don't think building the one is, and Azure and they're probably running their own fabric between the two so that's that'll be interesting to see where Apple goes with that. [9:53] Let's talk about some of the other devices that the word ounce there were three new iPhones. Yes the iPhone tennis tennis Max and the 10 are start with which one do you want to own. Yeah I like super Retina display that they introduced with the tennis has a low DPI than 950 and 950xl from like 3 years back. [10:30] 2 It's fine but i don't really want one such a big device for today i think it was a five point eight and six point five in screens to let's go through the but that start the bottom man the iphone acts are, 64 gig starts at 7 or $49 us what's specs. [10:51] I don't know but don't just sit there look pretty that's my job. [10:57] Got that what what are the specs on that one I think it has a eatable bionic it has all of the. Bells and whistles of the expensive to iPhones but it doesn't have the camera, Lakers has only they tell you it doesn't have a telephoto camera it has it doesn't have 3D touch, and i think that's it actually and it doesn't have the ski lift you banding it has alley me telling you i'm. [11:29] Can you on the side yeah thats not really replacement for the current iphone ten it replacement for the iphone each plus, although they still sell that right and I think the bionic is supposed to be much more efficient and they've got low power cores as well so in theory get up to 50% more battery life. But I think like because event larger on the screen this time it's like only 90 minutes more than the H+ also that's a very good battery time like if you're getting 90 minutes more than, start at 999 for 64 gigs by the way if you want to go up to. 128 year $250 into 56 and 750, probably how you doing things that have the key I think they have the 64th and the 256th and the 512, okay so the excess so tell me between the XR in the excess. [12:37] Only if i had to choose one i'd probably choose the ten are because the you ten s has excessive based on that okay but what do you get for those extra. You get a telephoto camera by the way that NR can do the book and the portrait effects without the telephoto camera so that's important fact that you're looking to just do the telephoto, just getting the tennis portrait mode with software, wanted display rather than and see okay. Slique cannabis, real videos and pictures. Look for to $50 you're not really getting much okay. Go ahead Tennessee on $400 more than the excess, and you're just getting slightly bigger battery and a slightly bigger screen that's it I will say this is hard to say, it is Edison 1500 us-45 12 gig not that anybody would buy a 512k phone but, really why music recordings all sorts of things always running out of space. [14:06] I believe I have 512 phone as well if it was available for models that I want. Yeah that's interesting I don't use that much storage on my phone then there's a thing called streaming guys you should try it, yeah but doesn't have good Netflix owns all over the place and, I like to have lots of pull apart Castle to Ally cat usually have 3 to 4 gigs of work podcast on my phone downloaded all the time welcome that argue against that through quickly like I like my music with me up at the lake and stream that. Things like that okay so that's. Anything else want to talk about the Apple event anything that was interesting anything was conspicuously absent anything else. [15:08] On my rca or everyone's the cool food for a mac even later this month or let's say next month because they have the lip and he of bead yeah that will prob be the best selling mac again, and the announcement Havasu Mohave think is coming out to Max, next week or probably this weekend I was 12th that's a major update for iOS which will make old phones and fast that's a good thing for everyone who owns an iPhone so, let's move on. David Microsoft officially has a name for the next version of Windows 10 creatively called the October 2018. Wow when can we expect to get that November but I love that got rid of the fall and Autumn and stuff it's like. [16:02] As for arbitrary based on where seattle is so. What is at the Georgian calendar or not it's so pretty much everyone follows the, what's the mohabbatan calendars all sorts of I think my got a vast majority people following that first of the seasons deeper into that is our next episode we can try to be recording more often and we get some get some details as to what's coming in that update I'm running it on one of my machines, as i talk about yes i just it took textbook forty minutes update i shouldn't of said click to start the part right so i want to move on and talk about, some of the some of the things we're seeing with the new windows on our machines there machines now coming out. Battery life is a 25-hour range running Windows it's not crazy it is crazy so the lenovo's got one a lot of what we talked about this before the folks at. Let's build the arm shifter talking about creating shapes that have the same performances and i7 but with much much better battery life, now what i'm expecting david is that you turn off was background sounds as if it's sleep if it's ad that's fault not mine it and then i also expect. [17:27] The next generation is really weird to see if we die we tried we are in Redmond we tried some of the early Windows alarm devices that were they were but they were sluggish they. Buy it and they were they will cases to be righteous and new entered so you take a lap top make it slower and, but I think I think it's going to be pretty interesting so we talked about the Apple event there's a Microsoft Event October 2nd, i have not but if it if it's a new and i would make when you're all talk more about that my rant and rave we wanted me york for that we get an invite. Okay sure I will definitely do that I have a feeling they're going to be announcing some more arm devices as Qualcomm start shipping those new arm chips. [18:19] I've been I've heard they're having a new new Surface laptop I've heard that too, it would be interesting if they could buy those to the Groomer's I'm not sure if that's just the color they did for for the. For the stealth mode machines that they didn't want people recognizing okay so that's the upcoming, microsoft event on october second stay tuned we will cuff coverage of so that yeah that's two weeks from two weeks from tomorrow so we will try to do a voice over like we have done in the past right to the track with microsoft events next week is microsoft ignite, we are not going I got North my office going either just way too much work too much going on this time of year so what we're going to be doing is looking for some correspondence of anybody, that's listening the show is going to ignite. [19:11] Please let us know and maybe you can do a remote segment for us or with us I know we've already got a couple of volunteers we'll talk more about that later. Wanna just do one show next week you're gonna be crazy go for to well and adobe with new one every day talk with enough that they'll depend on what microsoft announces i think we'll have to be fluid dynamic okay, what do you think sure let's try for 5 and go with. Will do we could still do daily daily segments of them back to the mall together, alright do you have another news item David the next one is the winner Microsoft Windows 10 s Enterprises will get I hate to setup a Linux like support. So that means they get support for Josh well I don't know it's like support me but mostly mixes with other than red hat don't really have support. Well right unless you pay for it so basically this means that enterprises will be able to run older versions of Windows 10 longer. Like. [20:24] Like they do with open to where they have what are they call them. So I've been working a lot of organizations moving to Windows 10 and they're really really struggling that's the case maybe they shouldn't be maybe they should understand it's just a minor update makes you just let it run but think they can. So We're there struggling with it this will be good news for them and 30 months okay so that means if you want to update every other year. [20:59] You could do that you could do that we should talk a little bit about it's just that Microsoft is going to be charging for Windows 7. Excited by the way they were charging for supporting XP through the pay for it so for those who aren't aware Windows 7 is coming to end of, January 20th that was what it was supposed to be and now they got his five years of paid support I believe which. Total expected sure you can if you want to pay for it they'll take care of you and I think a lot of people just don't care. And they just let it run without Sportability. I don't want to think about that too much last last piece of news that your phone app in Windows 10. Now has a Android SMS support so from your laptop you can send text messages so I've been able to do this with MightyText for like, 5 years right okay and then there's Android messaging app does it that's right but this is a joke. [22:06] Centralized hub for all of your messages so you can have it come into your Skype stream or whatever really. Ion yeah i use the browser based one with with android and it seems to work well and then it works for my non windows devices like. [22:23] My Android tablet okay so I'm not 7% but obviously you were you put it in the show that's all right. And now well David you wanted to talk a little bit more about was that a rumor you want to talk about any other no but I think it's time for you to have a bit of a rant. [22:46] Music. [22:54] Rants and Raves alright raps here we go 123. For my birthday I went to New York City they were taking my family there I think I've been there but haven't gone to the kids before we spend a few days there oddly enough I ran into some people that I know from Ottawa there right there take down the street so we have some fun you know who you are, what do Yankees gave my birthday try to Nathan's Hot Dog have White Sox. [23:24] Edgewood New York City you did a lot like to talk a lot about the city later but, did go to the Microsoft store in Prairie surface ago there was very noisy busy Place great location, and guess what it's more laughable than a both the surface. [23:47] And the whole body surface for what do you mean by regular some people might not know what that means well but then Mary Jo Foley stole it from us, it means how well it works on your lap at Lop ability is a personal thing because everyone has different left Dimensions based on how big their legs are and how, yo holla at all they are because you get a different angle on your lap based on how tall I was all the distance between the floor and your knees could have packed it totally totally, and I had lap ability issues with the Surface Book would slide off my lap or topple over my lap is slope. [24:29] I had liability issues with the Surface Pro 3 and 4, just because I didn't have enough Lop real estate to get the angle that I need to see if I can make it work but it's not Ideal Baptist for the lift my knees a little bit. David you're taller you didn't have the issues I had, surface go worked really it worked well then that's made for a smaller person cuz I found it was fine I didn't really concert that Billy but I found the keys very small, keyboard was actually better than I thought he would have took her and I skateboard but I still able to type on it so friend of the show fellow MVP Rafael from what the MVP coffee klatch in Germany, tweeted at us asking what which laptop you should take I think the surface go is the perfect device to take to ignite I don't think that was one of his choices though too bad you should go buy one that's right. [25:21] And so I still haven't got my by TSA settlement by the way are they thinking about it I was supposed to six months I got to follow up on that. What do you think surface Kobe tried 1 scene 1. Actually I don't think they have launched it in yet but I have a Microsoft store near office so late, I tried to go there today like it was closed for some reason. How to check it out once it launches in India okay so why is this a wrench. Because you didn't like the store let me tell you why I loved the flagship store, yes am I even went back there on the subway himself he had a great time there they tried some AI some VR they played some games they had an awesome time I couldn't drag them out of there he made a magnet for his locker. [26:15] It was awesome. Then on the way home we just so we drove by on the way home we drove through Syracuse and stopped at another Mall there they had a mother Microsoft store if you want to go look at a mouse. [26:31] He was kicked out of the store for being there without his parents swim team you were just next door you know I wasn't feeling well, yeah so he can't believe I walked over and they said yep no we don't want to babysit your kids all afternoon to the store by himself just yesterday and you won't let him the store yet that's our policy if he walked down the hall and went to the Apple Store instead they have, no issues welcome so I tweeted and the Microsoft store caught back to me, and the manager apologized and he sending him the mouse that he was looking at those a Razer gaming mouse not slow but feels very odd, they didn't want customers in the store yes that he wasn't doing anything, I can see just looking at stuff yeah that's supposed to same thing it was doing the day before at the store New York City. That's funny that's my rant, i too have anything else rats race you have any what about what about heard any rumors for microsoft, well you've heard rumors about the October 2nd event right right and no new device type so I really doubt they'll do an arm thing. I really wish they would do a surface laptop in arm but I don't think they will they will. [27:58] I think they should I don't know I think they should I have a feeling that the Andromeda by Celine ARM device yes but it won't be announced either. I'd do will probably do it on the guys they got them being up there windows from paying the amount of your like it. I think so later I think they'll announce it Alexa something like they will ship it later this year maybe holiday quarter or something like that, I think I put that in the show notes then we have calling. Arbor knot armored October 20th October 2nd or pervasively no. LTE says yes and David let you know arm just. Just updated the surface laptop and it's updated surface Studio. Shall we all find out. [29:05] Yes but we still at my up so how do people contact you you can you need me you get and this oh sorry. Counter. Alright so you want to sign off from India. I think so it's 4 a.m. and I think I should go to sleep anyway so say goodbye. Look at my car right everybody keep your stick on the ice. [29:50] Music. [30:01] Follow the show on Twitter at surface Smith emailed. [30:08] Show notes and leave a comment on www. [30:14] Help others find out about the show by leaving a review on iTunes. [30:17] Music. [30:28] Alright we are back with the universal windows podcast after party also known as the universal whiskey podcast. Damn it sold that yeah I know I stole the podcast of the Podcast Addict. Sticking around with other standard drink and david i brought it something that i i've got as a gift. Gifts are good for sharing this is tom and tool fourteen years old it's forty six percent and it is a space side and as you know i've never myspace i didn't like the exact so space side is just, Parlour Highlands but it's a sub-region so here is what our good friend Jim Murray says in The Whisky Bible. [31:13] This guy is shortness of breath some what the distinctiveness to The Barley & Oak arrive a little flustered and half-hearted rather than with a confidence Drive. Remains of beautiful whiskey full of Vitality displaying The Malt its most naked and vulnerable state they get the feeling that perhaps, a few too many third field or underperforming second that resulted in the intensity and hair-raising Harmony the truly great previous bottling just being slightly undercooked, that's still where the delicious dram and he rated at ninety one and he loves the sixteen it is a ninety four point five will have to get that so let's pour this david yes. It's the fashion for you some as well I could drink it for you though okay. It's very a honey color. [32:13] It's got that sweet sweet vanilla finish that I like and it just easy drinking. [32:22] I have a suggestion. So I got a book I picked up at a garage sale and it's called. What's the call David 100 whiskey to drink before you die hundred whiskey drink, 101 and they're in alphabetical order and for my birthday I thought a friend gave me the first book of the first whiskey and thereby truly by accident. And to give you the book she gave me this book another book what's this one called this one's called whiskey of Sab Rafael. So you know where to go once you're ready to go before you think should we or should we go through that book. As part of our episode three things that the substitute. [33:23] What some might be of statically impossible right well but that is flying to another city and spending a hundred dollars on a whisky. Possible automatically impulse to look for when up you'll get them all week the in order week for week after week with a jump ahead and jack is clearly clearly i've say that's okay yet so you think we should we should move through these. What do you think starting next episode we're going to start with what is it or don't tell them we already did. Kampachi troika. [34:04] What is okay to pour enough whiskey to it through some very good Indian whiskey by the way. [34:15] I've never had that never was really good looking. [34:24] And, deleted my understanding is that they bringing malt from Scotland water from the Ganges out water from the hill stations, and they make it they stored in warehouses in India I don't know whatever what part of it yet but because of the temperatures they're able to agent much much more quickly and because of the humidity, they don't lose as much weave operation. [35:02] I thought you had more when it was hotter humidity humidity. [35:09] That's okay that's happening at this part of the show. It's probably cuz David was playing with my laptop and moving things so so your idea of going through this book so there will be some. [35:27] Epic Journeys to find some of these because well like how will you. We got through our forties without having hailey ecg zr gonna die will do this quick if there it's shite for africa but is there like, of water david it really opens up okay is that this or website, that you can find which bars of which whiskey is in like that but also we order them online from LCBO but yes there are. You know I'm just thinking for some of these you might not want to be spending the $2,000. What a week. And what he cure let me make it more interesting why don't we put the list up on the website and. [36:25] Except patreon that people ship us bottles. And we can we have a Us address we can just ZIP down the mailboxes and pick them up in the states and, where do you at if that's probably what the scottish address scrub a factor okay well i like this was goody think with a little water david really opens up as the. [36:54] I've contemplated bit more okay alright. [37:06] But it's been really good to me and hopefully, order take some notes no notice just fine about to the interior. I think it's best city for those that don't know that's a bottled water in India. Have you been to Canada. [37:30] The states. I used to be like today by first 6 months till my laptop broke down so I am just using Windows on the walk laptop right now. We should try to get you going to become a Windows Insider MVP and then that could be good excuse to come to the states which is probably Canada. [37:59] Sure geographically anyway well. [38:08] Let's so let's sign off and that till next time keep your stick on the ice at your scotch on the rocks. Everyone have a fantastic night I'll talk to you soon and good morning.

The Agile Toolkit Podcast I always say that DevOps in one sense is really an extension of agile principles out to everybody on the ship. -Jeffery Payne Bob Payne chats with Jeffery Payne, Founder of Coveros, at Lean+Agile DC 2018.  The Payne Cousins (not really) chat DevOps and tips for pairing developers and testers.  The discussion covers moving toward a generalized specialist model, testers showing up like a demolition crew, and the true meaning of pairing. [caption id="attachment_7988" align="alignnone" width="2024"] Jeffery Payne sits down with Bob Payne (not cousins..)[/caption] TRANSCRIPT Bob Payne: [00:00:02] Hi I'm your host and technical idiot, Bob Payne. Just struggling with the equipment there for a little bit, making making the the the big newbie mistake of hitting play instead of record. So I'm here at Lean + Agile DC 2018 and I'm here with Jeff Payne of Coveros. Jeffery Payne: [00:00:25] Your cousin right. Bob Payne: [00:00:26] Yeah. Cousin Jeffery Payne: [00:00:27] Yeah. Bob Payne: [00:00:27] Yep. So Jeff what what are you talking about here today since I am out here in the hall and not not in the talks. Jeffery Payne: [00:00:38] Yes I'm talking about dev test pairing. Okay so trying to get developers and testers to work together better. We find that that's one of the biggest issues we see on teams when it comes from engineering perspective. Bob Payne: [00:00:52] Yeah I mean I think the early agilists were a lot of XP teams that sort of did away with testers because everybody was considered to be a tester. I think it was also sort of a chemistry of the particular group of folks that were on that first team. And you had folks like Elizabeth Hendrickson, Lisa Crispin. A lot of folks sort of brought testing back into the Agil fold. Yeah what do you think the biggest problems you see with testing and agile teams or trying to get testers and coders to pair? Jeffery Payne: [00:01:31] Yeah I think obviously one of the biggest problems is that they historically haven't worked well together. They're kind of on different sides of the fence as a check and a balance in some organizations right. Jeffery Payne: [00:01:42] And and a lot of organizations even they prefer that their testers not even talk to their developers they want them to be independent speak because they think it's kind of like an editor if if you haven't seen it and then you review it another set of eyes you're not you know you're not influenced by the development. The other sort of clean room actually that's the traditional approach. Of course it's always been very late lifecycle and very manual right. None of those things work well on edge. All right. Bob Payne: [00:02:11] Well none of those things actually work well in life. It's not just an agile thing. Jeffery Payne: [00:02:16] So you know how do we change that? Bob Payne: [00:02:17] Shoot, it's not secure and doesn't scale. I'm glad we have 12 hours to fix this before production. Jeffery Payne: [00:02:22] Yeah, Exactly. Here you go have it done by tonight. So yeah. And so what we try to help teams fix that. Bob Payne: [00:02:30] Yeah. Jeffery Payne: [00:02:30] Address those issues. Bob Payne: [00:02:33] What are you what do you think has been most beneficial recently for helping you in that in that quest of getting folks to pair together. Jeffery Payne: [00:02:42] Well we have some techniques and approaches that we like to use to try to get them to work together and also learn from each other because you know if you're moving toward a generalized specialist model on your teams we like that model. Yup and you want collective code ownership and you want a whole team quality all these you know motherhood and apple pie concepts that we espouse too. You've got to get everybody productive during the entire Sprint or whatever you're doing story development or whatever. And the only way you can do that is that people start learning from each other and cross fertilize. Historically you know I was a developer developers aren't great testers for a number of reasons. Jeffery Payne: [00:03:20] Just you know out of the gate they're not very good testers and testers oftentimes particularly if they are manual testers they don't have a very strong technical background they don't know code they can't write automation right. Those two things together don't work very well. So we've found that by pairing Dev and test they can help learn from each other and become stronger teammates and collectively on the code better. Bob Payne: [00:03:43] Now do you find that tools like cucumber or other. I don't know if you're running into teams using fitness but are early on fitness is one of those tools cucumber most recently specked flow help bridge that gap so that testers can blow out those scenarios a little more directly after the fixtures are done or even before the fixtures are done. Jeffery Payne: [00:04:09] Definitely. Yeah I mean the the BDD oriented. Bob Payne: [00:04:12] Yeah Jeffery Payne: [00:04:12] Cucumber with Gherkin, kind of natural language approach is a great way to start moving particularly manual testers toward understanding how to automate without having to dive right in and start like you know trying to write good maintainable selenium scripts for instance or whatever. I mean it's hard to write maintainable any kind of scripts. Bob Payne: [00:04:33] Write would be better then record -those are a nightmare to maintain Jeffery Payne: [00:04:39] No doubt, or record any test is a bad idea because that's how they're sold often so. Bob Payne: [00:04:44] Right. Jeffery Payne: [00:04:45] That's how you know people think you're supposed to use those tools. We definitely like those kinds of tools that we think they help move a a tester toward being more capable of providing automation support. Bob Payne: [00:04:57] What sort of behavioral, I mean, You mentioned the word pairing. What does that mean when you say that because I see a lot of I see a lot of misuse of the word. I'm assuming you're not but the mis use of the word pairing Jeffery Payne: [00:05:09] I Might be, who knows. Maybe you'll tell me i'm wrong, Bob. Bob Payne: [00:05:11] And TDD, I see a lot of people misusing or not really understanding TDD. That's most common but Jeffery Payne: [00:05:17] Yes. Yeah. So I mean to me I'm basing it off of the definition of pair programming. Go you know getting two people together to work together collectively on some task. When you talk in dev test you're really either talking about those two people working together on code almost pair programming and one of our techniques is to use a dev test to pair program yet which is a little different right because one of them maybe doesn't actually know how to write code. So what does that mean. Right. In pairing. The other thing we use it for is to review each others tests. So if you're going to ask developers to do a unit test you want them to learn how to write good unit test meaning think through not just happy path but you know the errors and boundary conditions exceptions and all those kinds of things they usually inherently don't know how to do that a tester can by working with them help them understand how to do that better. Second if you're asking your testers even if it's manual to create tasks for integration for system for you know kind of the combinations of things across use cases and your business flows they often don't they often won't load the design. Well enough particularly if they haven't been involved in those activities they should be but often aren't. Jeffery Payne: [00:06:34] Yeah and the developer can help them think through and understand how does this software all pieced together to meet the you know the flow that we're looking for in our application and how users use it so they can help each other from a testing perspective we found. Bob Payne: [00:06:47] And one of the other things that I think a lot of a lot of testers can help with as well is what are the business rules like oh yeah if you're doing an under UI test which quite often happens in the developers domain you know what are the what are those conditions you know the happy path is easy and that's usually where developers go because they know the happy path works but they don't necessarily test those boundary conditions as or that or the business rules right if I had a whole bunch of J rules or other stuff I wouldn't test that through the UI right. Jeffery Payne: [00:07:26] Yeah no doubt. Bob Payne: [00:07:28] Yeah. Jeffery Payne: [00:07:28] And to your point about a happy path. The other thing we've seen is not every developer's like this but you know a lot of developers consider what they're building to be a work of art. Right. They're like Michelangelo creating the Sistine Chapel in their in their mind. Yeah and they're all about creating this beautiful incredible thing that's going to last forever and just people are going to you and all over it even if it's just their peers. Bob Payne: [00:07:49] Yep. Jeffery Payne: [00:07:50] And then the tester shows up testers like a demolition crew. Bob Payne: [00:07:52] Yeah Jeffery Payne: [00:07:53] Right. They're trying to poke holes in it and figure out what's wrong with it and it's kind of like calling your baby ugly. If you're asked to test your own code because you know you might have every intention but in the back of your mind you might be thinking I don't really want my Sistine Chapel to have problems in it or look bad and changing that mindset is part of getting Dev and tests to work together to understand the best way if you want to build something great is to find any issues as fast as you can see eradicate them. That's really about what it looks like when it gets delivered yet not what it looks like. You know while you're making the sausage right. Bob Payne: [00:08:27] Yeah. I find a lot of people use the term Pairing and they're really talking about working together on just acceptance criteria or something like that that's necessary but not sufficient. I think that deeper level of the deeper you can go in interaction and an understanding the better off your team is clearly Jeffery Payne: [00:08:52] We've had good success getting developers involved in doing some exploratory testing as well. Bob Payne: [00:08:57] Sure. Bob Payne: [00:08:57] You know a lot of times testers get together and do you know session based exploratory testing across stories or whatever. What about the idea of just getting the Dev and test together for a story they're working on and having an exploratory testing session where they work together and explore the product and talk about it and identify bugs. Again that gets the developers a little bit more comfortable doing testing and knowing what to look for thinking critically about the app. And of course it helps the tester better understand the app because if they're they don't understand something about what they're testing they've got the developer right there they can ask Hey what was this supposed to do or how was this supposed to work. Jeffery Payne: [00:09:32] Now I think the story is maybe vague did we really build the right thing or are we testing it properly. That dialogue's very helpful. Bob Payne: [00:09:38] Yeah. What else is exciting in your your world right now Jeffery Payne: [00:09:42] Nothing Bob Payne: [00:09:42] No? Jeffery Payne: [00:09:42] Nothing. Well as you know we do a lot of DevOps work. Bob Payne: [00:09:47] Yeah sure. Yeah it's the new edge issue. Jeffery Payne: [00:09:51] Yeah exactly. Bob Payne: [00:09:52] Yeah. Actually you know we were going to be talking later with some folks talking about sort of you know in many ways Agile is sort of hit a ceiling and I'm hoping this will open up gaps where we can get to real real agility and real cause. All too often it's seen as a fix for the delivery team not right. Not a systemic change that can build better value faster. Jeffery Payne: [00:10:23] Yeah and I totally agree. I mean I think one of the mistakes that the founding fathers of Agile made is you know they were all about collaboration getting everybody to work together. But they forgot a key piece of the lifecycle which was delivery and release and production and production oriented. Bob Payne: [00:10:41] And actually intake in the business side. Jeffery Payne: [00:10:45] Exactly. You know it's funny this group that was all about collaboration and getting everybody on the same page left all these people out right by mistake. Obviously they were creating it as they went so I understand. So I always say that dev ops in one sense is really an extension of agile principles out to everybody on the ship you know involved in the software delivery process in the full lifecycle software. Bob Payne: [00:11:09] Yeah and agile and dev ops are both the you know great grandchildren of lean which was all about that base that whole process right. Jeffery Payne: [00:11:21] Yes. Bob Payne: [00:11:22] Yeah. You know this reintroduction of the concept of value streams and value team and stuff - It's like back to the future. Jeffery Payne: [00:11:32] I'm sure you've studied up on the history you know all the way back through Demming and you know all the way back to you know statistical process control and even beyond that I mean it's clearly standing on the shoulders of giants like everything we do. It's amazing how many people don't understand that or take the time to find that out or understand. Bob Payne: [00:11:50] And the idea that that actually Devops, Yeah there's a whole bunch of cool technical stuff going on, but it's about closing the loop to be able to learn. And my favorite Demming quote about that was learning is not compulsory. Neither is survival. Jeffery Payne: [00:12:07] Here's some great pithy comments. You know we're in this. You know there was an article I read that compared it to an extinct extinction level event you know where we've got you know Internet of Things and big data and and organizations being able competitors being able to go extraordinarily fast and learn and reintegrate that learning. The end for the many organizations that will that will mean their doom and not going to pretend that DevIps or Agile is any silver bullet in allowing them to survive. But I just know the status quo is not the strategy I would take. Jeffery Payne: [00:12:56] Yeah. Well yeah I mean if software is really eating the world which I think we would agree it is then you'd better figure out how to optimize how you build deploy deliver and feedback information fast because otherwise you are going to be out of business. Yeah eventually. Bob Payne: [00:13:15] So what's happening over at your company Coveros. Jeffery Payne: [00:13:18] Coveros, yes! So We're busy little busy little beavers helping people with Agile and devops just trying to get it right. And when we focus more on the engineering aspects of both of those things but I often get asked to you know help pull teams together and figure out how to make it all work. Bob Payne: [00:13:36] Yup Jeffery Payne: [00:13:36] But we really like the the engineering aspects as I call it you know Automation doesn't solve all your problems right. I always say a tool with a fool is still a fool. Right. So you have to know what you're doing and you have to collaborate work together. But automation can help and as long as you take that philosophy you can leverage test automation and then you see ICD Automation and other types of automation effectively. If your view is that automation somehow solves all your problems it's a magic bullet right. And it all you know takes culture or you know magically make it all work then you're going to be really upset right because it's not going to work so that's kind of what we're focusing on. Bob Payne: [00:14:16] Magical thinking is a strategy has also proved to be not the greatest.. Jeffery Payne: [00:14:21] Hope. Hope is not a strategy. One of my favorite sales books and I use that a lot. Yeah everybody says it's not grounded in reality I would say just remember hope is not a strategy. Bob Payne: [00:14:30] Yeah yeah yeah exactly. Well great. What what's exciting you coming up. What do you see coming down the pike in the next. You know what I know prediction is tough especially about the future. Jeffery Payne: [00:14:47] Yeah the future because if I could I wouldn't be in this business or I'd be retired long ago. Bob Payne: [00:14:52] Yeah exactly. Jeffery Payne: [00:14:53] Well I am I'm excited about. Bob Payne: [00:14:54] What do you actually see that's here. Jeffery Payne: [00:14:56] Well I was very skeptical at first but I am a little bit excited about what's going on with integration of A.I. into Dev and test. There are some interesting things going on around how you can leverage AI capabilities to build better tests for your applications. Do testing in a better way. So what actually look interesting. Are they going to scale or are they going to work right we've been talking about AI and you know robots take over the world forever which of course is not going to happen. Bob Payne: [00:15:30] The joke is AI is the next big thing and always will be. Jeffery Payne: [00:15:34] Yeah it's very true because you and I we probably are same same relevant age and we were coming up through the techie ranks. AI got really hot for a while. Bob Payne: [00:15:43] I was in the computer architectures for AI master's program so Jeffery Payne: [00:15:47] Yeah! It was hot hot hot, VR - the first VR systems came out and everyone was talking about these awesome things and how we were going to live in alternative worlds. And all that stuff and of course then like a lot of things that it didn't really happen and kind of disappeared but it bubbled along and now it's kind of popped its head up again. Bob Payne: [00:16:05] And so I'm not familiar with the uses that folks have been you know the application in the testing area what is the is this especially for like I mean if you look at big data you don't know what's in there necessarily. So you don't know know what to test for like where's the where's the current application of. Jeffery Payne: [00:16:33] Well there's a couple. One is of course everybody's trying to figure out how to even test AI-based systems whether it's B.I or or whatever it is you know how do we know the answers right. Right. That's the age old problem in the systems is you know how do you actually know whether what you got is true or not because you kind of need that testing right. But the other side of it which which we're more focused on is other ways to build better approaches to automation that analyze the product analyze what you're building and not completely write the scripts for you but take a step toward providing you test automation capabilities and scripting without having to do that on yourself. There are some new tools out on the market really small startup stuff that's trying to take a different look completely at how we create automated tests and how we maybe do that automatically. Yeah and the software is a really hard problem. Bob Payne: [00:17:37] Yeah I can I can I can extraordinarily easily imagine doing like really good deep progression by looking at sort of big data. Big data user behavior. You know we've kind of done that to heatmap. You know we really need this piece to be bulletproof because of risk. I'm sure there are folks out there that are mapping the the usage. But I could also imagine very easily just observe what folks are doing and and learn from that. I mean it's the way to go. [00:18:20] You know Al p haGo learned how to play go and meet you know with you know the vast majority of the learning in a system like that is not from the ruleset right. The initial ruleset it's actually playing another copy of itself Veriga and and and going through the database of previous games which for go is actually harder than chess but apparently it never played go. But yeah it sounds easy it's go go. How hard could it be. Jeffery Payne: [00:18:53] Just go right. Just go. So what. What's up with that. Just sounds a lot harder. four letters. Just kidding but Bob Payne: [00:19:04] It is four letters is twice as many. Jeffery Payne: [00:19:08] That's fine. We're just having a great time here right. Bob Payne: [00:19:15] Yeah. Jeffery Payne: [00:19:16] So yeah that's what what I'm interested in that is just you know trying to take the dev ops concept to the next level. You mentioned round trip. Right. Which is you know a lot of people spent their early instantiations of automation just focusing on how do I get code you know from a change in their production as fast as possible with quality and stability as well. You have to balance those. But now I think the more sophisticated companies are saying OK well it's great to get there but what happens if you get there and something's wrong. What's the fastest roundtrip approach to fixing that and addressing that. Is it rolling back. Is it going roundtrip and coming through. You know because the the other thing that's and people say why is that important if we're not the kind of company like you know say and Amazon who's pushing code out every 11 seconds right. Jeffery Payne: [00:20:05] Why do you need that we need that for security and stability and performance service level agreements. I mean if you've got a problem in production it cost you money every minute every second it's down or that there is a risk out there with a security perspective you've got to figure out how to round trip change as fast as possible. And that's an exciting area I think has been under looked at. You know it hasn't really been the focal point of house is now I think starting to be. I mean this it is really ironic that the safest way to go is to be able to go fast. Bob Payne: [00:20:41] I mean Jeffery Payne: [00:20:41] Oh yeah. Bob Payne: [00:20:43] I mean the level you know I remember those days where company would have to fail over to their dark side and emphasis on fail right because it would be days hours just downtime before they could you know oh shoot the Oracle logs didn't replicate. Yeah. Or whatever. And in like extreme programming and some of the techniques there early on they were seen as risky and the real practice in the same way that drove up seems risky. If you're doing it the way you and I think they should be doing it. It's actually the least risky way of behaving Jeffery Payne: [00:21:37] Right. Yeah it is. Yeah of course there are some apps that you'd like to be able to push into production quickly but maybe can't ever fail. So you know you can't you know this you know the Amazon concept of roll something out there doesn't really work. Jeffery Payne: [00:21:53] Roll it back and tune it roll back out and you're kind of using your customer to test test and give you some time to live life critical for that. So there are certain ones that you need. You know just double down on your assurance process during your dev ops capability because it can't fail on the field.. For a lot of others you know. Bob Payne: [00:22:10] Well one of them one of the things that I've been thinking about because I quite often talked about high quality and the key is and someone came up to me and said what you're really looking for is expected quality. So and he had an example that was was a big oil and gas company and one of the things that they said is your labels are too good. He's like What do you mean said we need the labels to start to deteriorate immediately said we do not want to see someone pouring a lubricant into a cooking pan in Africa or in some other area where this is unfortunately a common practice with a brand spanking new company logo on the outside of that thing said is we actually need that to deteriorate. And I start to think about that because as you mentioned you know some fine you know I may not have critical transactions push something around or find a roll it back. You know that might be fine. You know canary roll out on Spotify right fine right. Jeffery Payne: [00:23:39] Yep. Bob Payne: [00:23:40] Canary Roll out on the firmware and in a medical device maybe not so fun. Jeffery Payne: [00:23:46] Yeah Bob Payne: [00:23:46] Because the Canary dies Jeffery Payne: [00:23:48] And it's a big Canary. Bob Payne: [00:23:48] . Oh yeah yeah Jeffery Payne: [00:23:55] Yeah. No. No doubt Bob Payne: [00:23:56] Yeah. Jeffery Payne: [00:23:56] And that and that is something that I think people misunderstand about dev ops. [00:24:00] You know when I speak about DevOps at conferences I always well attended everybody's interested in the topic because it's hot Bob Payne: [00:24:06] Right. Jeffery Payne: [00:24:07] People have this perception and unfortunately senior management does that Dev ops means speed and speed alone. The goal no fast can I push things into production. Bob Payne: [00:24:17] But imagine a life critical system where you could have test automation every single infrastructure. Code line Change is auditable in and you can get that level of safety. We used to put two you know extraordinary manual testing. Jeffery Payne: [00:24:44] Yes it was very expensive. Bob Payne: [00:24:45] And it's prone to possibility of non repeatable results. Somebody makes a mistake. Somebody configurations off. And now with you know with tools that where you have immutable infrastructure you have software configured network you can actually know to some a greater degree of certainty than we were able to in the past that you have a Conformance Test system. And that adds a lot of safety. Jeffery Payne: [00:25:24] It does and it helps with regulatory is yes right. I mean the one of the under the under represented aspects of dev ops is CM Bob Payne: [00:25:34] Right. Jeffery Payne: [00:25:34] Because if you're doing it right everything you're dragging your entire manifest of your software your test your environments your even your rollback your recovery procedures your monitoring capability. Dragging that all the way through production in a way that you know where everything came from and everything takes and ties together. And that's what regulators want. Right. Bob Payne: [00:26:00] Those that know they actually want safety they don't care about the stack of documents they use sadly to hopefully inspect that you knew what you're doing. Jeffery Payne: [00:26:08] Want you to demonstrate that you have a process that delivers quality and they want to see that there's relationships between the various things that you're using to do that. And dev ops gives you all that if you do it right. Bob Payne: [00:26:20] Yeah. Jeffery Payne: [00:26:21] If you do it wrong it just you know throws your code down through there and everything around it is changing constantly and you're never really going to get the speed or quality that you want. Bob Payne: [00:26:30] Yep well great so anything you'd like to close out with Jeff for Jeffery Payne: [00:26:36] Well just thanks for the chance to talk. I know you've been doing this a long time and it seems like a great podcast and we're really enjoying the conference. Looking forward to the rest of it. Bob Payne: [00:26:49] And if you can stand to hear me talk then they listen to some of the older ones I think Bob Payne: [00:26:55] Definitely. Jeffery Payne: [00:26:56] Ok cool Bob Payne: [00:26:56] I'll get some popcorn and listen to early one's .. I wish you had started it maybe five years earlier than that right. I mean. Bob Payne: [00:27:03] Yeah yeah Jeffery Payne: [00:27:03] If you had started like right around 2000. Bob Payne: [00:27:05] Yeah Jeffery Payne: [00:27:05] Then Bob Payne: [00:27:06] Yeah. Jeffery Payne: [00:27:07] You know you would have had some interesting.. Bob Payne: [00:27:08] There's a there was some gap years as well. Jeffery Payne: [00:27:12] But Well thank thank you very much for having me. Bob Payne: [00:27:14] Thanks.

We know a fellow broadcaster who got kicked off the air for stating his opinion on his own show. Why? Because Muslim Minded Christians wanted him silenced. So We're ranting about it. Oh, and it wasn't us.   Visit Matthew Pancake's Facebook http://www.facebook.com/matthew.pancake Visit Pastor Gary Held's Facebook http://www.facebook.com/garyheld Visit our Website www.RadicalGraceRadio.com    

So We're exploring Repentance lately, mainly because we think people's understanding of Repentance is off base, again...  So we looked at the passage from Luke Chapter 3 verses 1 through 14..."John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?  Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.  The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”           “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.            John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.”           Tax collectors also came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?” “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”           He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.” We've misunderstood this whole passage.  Listen to Pastor Gary explain how.   Visit Matthew Pancake's Facebook http://www.facebook.com/matthew.pancake Visit Pastor Gary Held's Facebook http://www.facebook.com/garyheld Visit our Website www.RadicalGraceRadio.com